# National Socialism



## HotIcyDonut

I noticed that the name of political ideologies occurs mostly as اشتراكية وطنية. However, even though the ideology is statist, it's based on "blood" values, shouldn't it more correctly be referred to as اشتراكية قومية? I mean, i've read that وطن refers to homeland, to some land, to a political entity, and قوم refers to living people with a common ancestry, human beings, rather than a particular territory/state.

I mean, it feels like اشتراكية وطنية should be a reference to some sort of "socialist patriotic" ideology (which has nothing to do with blood, as it can easily be multiethnic/multiracial, some sort of leftist "civic nationalism") rather to a Hitlerist-style ideology. What do you think?

شكراً مقدماً.


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## analeeh

I'm not sure what you've been reading that the translation of 'national socialism' has come up frequently enough for you to make a judgement about its most common translation, but a quick Google reveals that both are used. The most common phrasing for the Nazi party in fact seems to be القومية الاشتراكية based on Google results, although all the other variants also occur.

In short, though, there's nothing surprising about multiple translations occurring. Probably the most common word for this particular movement in general is النازية, and the other names are more technical alternative translations from the German or (more likely) the English or the French. Given that 'national' can be translated one or the other way, it's just a question of which the individual writer finds to be more appropriate. You're probably right that قومية captures the spirit of the original more closely, but then what does _National _mean in _Nationalsozialismus_?


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## elroy

analeeh said:


> Probably the most common word for this particular movement in general is النازية


 Yes.  I've never encountered the other two in real life, whereas I've seen and heard النازية countless times.


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## HotIcyDonut

Seems i misjudged. Most modern parties are referred to as using وطن in Arabic Wikipedia: تصنيف:Neo-Nazi political parties - ويكيبيديا But the original party is referred to as *حزب العمال القومي الاشتراكي الألماني*

Ok. Point taken.

Hm, i didn't think about it that way. Since word "nation" applies to a commonage of people with any type of identity, it's an extendable term.


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## cherine

If you read Arabic texts from the sixties you'll find the word قومية used so often (more than الوطنية if my understanding is correct). I don't know what "national socialism" refers to (didn't, before reading this thread), but الاشتراكية القومية is what came to my mind when I read the title of the thread, and I believe القومية الاشتراكية is the correct term, and the one you'll most likely find in older Arabic translations.


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## momai

القومية الاشتراكية is even a school subject in Syria. In my time at school we used to call the book just كتاب القومية. I looked up the new books, apparently they are called now التربية الوطنية.


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## cherine

Haha ours were التربية القومية  Oh the memories. One of the most boring school subjects ever. 

Edit: Now I doubted whether it was القومية or الوطنية. It appears it's definitely the وطنية now. And I can't remember whether it was always like this or was القومية at first (in the 80s). Yes, I feel too old now.


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## WadiH

قوم just means group or people.  It doesn't inherently imply a blood relation.

I think Nazism should be translated as نازية unless you're specifically trying to explain the etymology or the name of the political party itself, in which case I find اشتراكية more problematic than either قومية or وطنية.  I would lean towards حزب العمال القومي الاجتماعي or حزب العمال الوطني الاجتماعي.


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## cherine

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I find اشتراكية more problematic than either قومية or وطنية.


Why? Isn't Socialism always translated as اشتراكية?


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## momai

اجتماعي is an attributive for علم الاجتماع. If you don't like اشتراكية then you might want to choose another word otherwise it would not get you much further and only confuse people, I'd say.


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## jack_1313

HotIcyDonut said:


> I mean, it feels like اشتراكية وطنية should be a reference to some sort of "socialist patriotic" ideology (which has nothing to do with blood, as it can easily be multiethnic/multiracial, some sort of leftist "civic nationalism") rather to a Hitlerist-style ideology.



Don't you think the very same point applies in English? Anyone reading that name without a little historical knowledge would assume that this was some kind of left-wing socialist or communist movement, whereas the reality is that the movement was violently opposed to communism from its outset. Despite the name, Nazism is the prime example of fascism, not socialism.


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## WadiH

cherine said:


> Why? Isn't Socialism always translated as اشتراكية?



Yes it is, but Nazis meant something very different than actual socialism so the Arabic translation as اشتراكية would be misleading.  But as others pointed out you have the same problem in English and other languages, so perhaps there's no other choice.



momai said:


> اجتماعي is an attributive for علم الاجتماع. If you don't like اشتراكية then you might want to choose another word otherwise it would not get you much further and only confuse people, I'd say.



I would say it relates to اجتماع and مجتمع generally, not علم الاجتماع specifically.  For example, 'social insurance' is usually translated as ضمان اجتماعي.  Incidentally, 'social' here is referring to the same thing as 'social' in 'socialism', so maybe اجتماعي is the better translation for socialism proper since it actually relates to the original idea behind the ideology (social production, social solidarity, social welfare etc.) whereas اشتراكية has a narrower meaning of ownership in common so is really just a literal synonym of شيوعية (communism).  This would be my preferred approach but I know it would never catch on.


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## elroy

Wadi Hanifa said:


> perhaps there's no other choice.


 There is: النازية.


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## WadiH

elroy said:


> There is: النازية.



Haha yes, that is *the* correct rendering of Nazism, but sometimes you need to translate the etymology or full name of the actual political party.


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## elroy

In those cases, one could (for example) add حرفيًا and/or a note to the effect of مع أن النازية ليست بالحقيقة نوعًا من الاشتراكية.

The thing is, there’s no _real_ problem in English.  “national socialism” is more than the sum of its parts and is taken as a unit.  Arabic uses the term النازية, which is equally unambiguous.  With the exception of the few cases in which a literal rendition is called for, which can be dealt with as I’ve suggested, the “problem” only arises if one questions the validity of النازية and seeks — for no good reason — to render the original _literally_, which backfires because الاشتراكية القومية/الوطنية is not an established term in Arabic, whereas الاشتراكية is, so confusion is inevitable.  That’s what happens when translators don’t leave well enough alone and tinker with the natural development of language!


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## momai

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I would say it relates to اجتماع and مجتمع generally, not علم الاجتماع specifically.  For example, 'social insurance' is usually translated as ضمان اجتماعي.


Good point! 
I can understand that other Arabic speakers find القومية الاشتراكية problematic but Syria officially is at least an Arab national socialist country and the state follows a ثقافة قومية عربية اشتراكية. Whether Arab national socialism is the same as the German one or not is of course another question, but if you ask me they resembles each other very well, in cruelty at least.


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## cherine

I didn't know that Nazism had another name, it's always النازية. And I agree with you, Wadi, that translating it as اشتراكية may cause confusion. But if it has "socialist" in its full name, then I think we should stick with the known translation الاشتراكية, because adding a new term only adds more confusion.


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## elroy

cherine said:


> I didn't know that Nazism had another name


 The story is that it comes from the German term _Nationalsozialismus_ (literally, "national socialism"), and in German that got shortened to _Nazi_.  The reason the "t" became a "z" is that the "t" in _Nationalsozialismus _is pronounced "ts."  _Nati_ would be pronounced with a "t," so to preserve the pronunciation it became _Nazi_ because "z" is pronounced "ts" in German.  That's also why "Nazi" is pronounced with a "ts" in (American) English.  Now, in Arabic it became النازية under influence of the actual orthography rather than the pronunciation.

Long story short, _Nazi_ is just short for _Nationalsozialismus_.  The fact that using النازية in Arabic elegantly avoids the whole issue of how to render "socialism" is a happy bonus. 

In German, it's common to add an "i" when forming abbreviations.  Other examples: 

Amerikaner > Ami ("American")
Professioneller > Profi ("professional")
Auszubildender > Azubi ("intern, trainee")


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## WadiH

momai said:


> Good point!
> I can understand that other Arabic speakers find القومية الاشتراكية problematic but Syria officially is at least an Arab national socialist country and the state follows a ثقافة قومية عربية اشتراكية. Whether Arab national socialism is the same as the German one or not is of course another question, but if you ask me they resembles each other very well, in cruelty at least.



"Arab socialism" always presented itself as a left-wing ideology, but how they behaved in power is another matter (right-wing regimes don't have a monopoly on cruelty as you know).

There is though the "Syrian Social Nationalist Party", which is a translation of الحزب السوري القومي الاجتماعي, but the similarity between "Social National" and "National Socialist" was not lost on the party's critics (the party's logo didn't help either).  Its founder insisted the similarities were coincidental and that his party wasn't really fascist, but he did seem to view things in racial terms.  So I think that's another point in favor of اجتماعي here.


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## Ihsiin

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Yes it is, but Nazis meant something very different than actual socialism so the Arabic translation as اشتراكية would be misleading.  But as others pointed out you have the same problem in English and other languages, so perhaps there's no other choice.



Indeed, but the Nazi's usage of the term 'socialist' was also misleading, and was adopted more in an attempt to court popularity amongst Germany's left wing rather than in pursuit of any actual socialist ideals. If one wants to translate the name of the NSDAP then اشتراكي is appropriate, but as you and others have said, if one wants to actually refer to the Nazi Party then الحزب النازي is really the only correct option in Arabic.

The difference is that in English 'national socialism' is sometimes (often) used as a kind of euphemism for Nazism, but this obviously isn't the case in Arabic. As momai indicated, in the Arab world حزب البعث were keen to combine nationalism and socialism, and while I'd be the first to condemn the atrocities committed by them I don't think it would be correct to identify them as Nazis.


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## WadiH

Ihsiin said:


> Indeed, but the Nazi's usage of the term 'socialist' was also misleading, and was adopted more in an attempt to court popularity amongst Germany's left wing rather than in pursuit of any actual socialist ideals. If one wants to translate the name of the NSDAP then اشتراكي is appropriate



I'm convinced.


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