# Physical beauty v. IQ



## Everness

Ladies, before you start throwing stones in my direction, I want to clarify that I didn't come up with this question. It was Yvonne Ridley, a former British journalist, who posed it: “What’s more liberating — being judged on the size of your I.Q., or on the size of your bust?”

I was listening to NPR the other day. There was a story on Yvonne Ridley, one of several recent high-profile converts to Islam in Britain. In September 2001 she was captured by the Taliban and held for 10 days. According to the story, she spat and swore at her captors who, upon her release, described her as a very bad woman with a very bad mouth. As a condition for her release, she promised her captors that she would read the Koran. Within a year and a half she converted to Islam. 

In the interview she said, 

_It (Islam) is a blueprint for feminism. I am a promoter of women’s rights. I was a Western feminist in every sense. And here was a blueprint for the rights of women, which I found completely flawless. Being judged on my intellect rather than the size of my bust or the length of my skirt._ 

She says she is now an Islamic feminist. 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6066537

Our own Laura Bush stated back in 2005:

_We were horrified by the cruel and inhumane treatment of Afghan women under the Taliban regime. Keeping girls out of school and out of work was meant to relegate women to a state of perpetual inferiority. That's unacceptable in any society and it's just not very smart to keep one half of society locked up, forbidden to expand their minds or contribute to the life of their nation. By telling people their ideas and their labor have no value, repressive societies limit their ability to create great thinkers, scientists, educators and leaders who can improve the lives of all people. 
_
http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2005/43136.htm

I thought we had bombed Afghanistan to liberate the women from their burkas. But Ms. Ridley, after reading the Koran and converting to Islam, says that it is a blueprint for feminism. A blueprint for feminism? Am I missing something here?


_Moderator note:  The original title of this thread has been changed, in response to numerous protests.  As some of the following posts refer to the original title, please note that it was this:
_*Should women be judged on the size of their I.Q., or on the size of their bust?*


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## rsweet

I think you'd have to know a whole lot more about the Koran than most Westerners do to answer this question. As a generalization, I would say that holy books, such as the Bible and the Koran, often present beautiful ideologies, poetry, and spiritual blueprints for life. In my opinion, the realities of how the religion, as opposed to the literal scripture, manifests itself in culture, politics, and custom would be my yardstick to judge it as something I would espouse to guide my life. In reality, it seems to me that Muslim and Christian feminists have an uphill battle ahead of them -- blueprint or no.

As for the title of this thread, I find it at cross purposes with what you say later in your initial post.


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## cuchuflete

OK Everness,
You have played the sensationalist, yellow press, tabloid card again with the deceptive question.  Why don't you answer the question you posed, which, according to what you have written, is not exactly what the Ridley person asked.

As for her, I am completely unfamiliar with the length of her skirt, the size of any part of her anatomy, and have no insight into her intellect.  If I were to judge her on those, it would be to form thoroughly independent thoughts about

-her sartorial condition
-her biological attributes
-her intellectual attributes

She might be great or awful in all three regards, or more interesting in some ways than others, as most humans tend to be.

The question is bogus. A fine mind does not preclude physical attractiveness, and the latter can never atone for weakness in the former.


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## Trina

rsweet said:


> In reality, it seems to me that Muslim and Christian feminists have an uphill battle ahead of them -- blueprint or no.
> 
> Well put! Sometimes it appears that women are judged by the formula: size of IQ divided by bust size


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## .   1

Who will do the judging?
How many people do you know and respect who judge women on their breasts?
You question implies that women in non-Islamic cultures are judged on their breasts.
Your question further implies that Islamic cultures do not judge women on their breasts yet there seems to be a pretty strict set of rules restricting view of breasts and pretty much every thing else about a woman..
It seems to me that a culture that has fewer restrictions on women is likely to be somewhat kinder to women in general.  It is only a few generations since women were granted full citizenship in Capitalist societies and I am led to believe that women are being treated in a kinder fashion now than they were in those good old days.
Are you able to judge many of the women who contribute here on their breasts?
Is a woman writer in general more likely to succeed if she has prominent knockers or will she succeed on her talent with words?
I suspect that some adolescents may fixate on the latest parade of silicone enhanced poor young victims of fashion excesses.  There is a very narrow splinter of the entertainment industry that seems to value weird looking mammaries and these dolly birds generate much more media attention than they deserve. 

.,,


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## don maico

Neither! I f I were a woman I would find both  offensive. Why should anyone be "judged" on their intelect anyway? Surely character is far more important


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## Sallyb36

I've rarely heard such a stupid question.


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## pedro0001

So, what are you discussing here? If the IQ is more important than corporal beauty or about what says the Koran about women?


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## Fernando

To remain on topic and answer the thread question:

On the size of their bust (of course).


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## geve

cuchuflete said:


> OK Everness,
> You have played the sensationalist, yellow press, tabloid card again with the deceptive question. Why don't you answer the question you posed, which, according to what you have written, is not exactly what the Ridley person asked.


Yeah, and do you have studies to back up your point Everness? 
Sex, feminism, religion and bombing: it seems you baked yourself a nice hot'n spicy topic indeed!

Now seriously, I don't understand your question: IQ and bust size are directly linked, aren't they?  
What are you after with such a thread topic? Were you hoping to have a gang of female foreras and the most chivalrous of their male counterparts to jump in the ring and throw mud at each other and/or at you? Why don't you simply ask that then? (though there's a chance you'd be redirected to a more appropriate website)

[BTW - IQ is a dated concept. It's all about emotional intelligence now. ]


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## pedro0001

If the question is if the IQ is more important than corporal beauty, I would say NO.

Why should IQ be more important than beauty? Both are important factors in a woman. I think that those who says that beauty has no merit are wrong. It does has merit, why not! Just because it was the Nature the responsible for that fact? And it is not the same with the intelligence?

And, actually, scientist believe that only one gene is the responsible for both, intelligence and beauty, and they are positively correlated.


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## cuchuflete

If intelligence is beautiful, then the title of this thread is appallingly ugly.   (And puerile?)

No comment about the thread topic, which seems to be
"How to be confusing and provocative all at once while maintaining a trite, though seemingly serious, tone."


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## don maico

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder . A woman who is kind compassionate has good sense of humour and a reasonable level of inteligence would attract me far more than than a so called "beauty" who is very vain ,supercilious,  arrogant and inconsiderate towards others.
An intelectual who uses hius/hers abilities for the betterment of others would earn my respect. One who is vain, selfish and arrogant -doesnt!

what else can one say?Sorry but this is a somewhat pointless thread


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## Brioche

Everness said:


> She says she is now an Islamic feminist.
> 
> A blueprint for feminism? Am I missing something here?


 
You're not missing a thing.
It's Yvonne Ridley who missing quite a bit.

Sounds like varitions on the Stockholm Syndrome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

An Islamic feminist? 
That's something like a Royal Republican, or Tory Revolutionary, or an Emancipist slave-owner.


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## Outsider

I agree with *Rsweet*. This is an interesting story which makes you think (Did Ms. Ridley catch the infamous Stockholm syndrome? Does she have a point? Are Islam and Christianity really that different when it comes to women's rights?...), but unfortunately *Everness*' barely related title draws attention way from it.


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## ElaineG

Women of course are multi-faceted creatures who can be judged, or better, appreciated on any number of levels.

Years of experience have taught me however that _some_ men are best judged only by their penis size, as their intellectual abilities, including the ability to process information read on the internet, assemble a logical argument, and ask a meaningful question are somewhat lacking. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that such men are not also packing a toothpick.


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## Nunty

I have rarely seen here a question more purely and pointlessly provoking. Nor a dumber one. I suppose the analog question is: Should men be judged on the size of their IQ or the size of their...

Left earlobe. What did you think I was going to say?


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## cuchuflete

Nun-Translator said:


> What did you think I was going to say?


Now *that* is a far more interesting thread topic than the juvenile jumble we were presented with earlier!


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## cuchuflete

Please translate to English or some other language used in these forums:    "...the size (_sic_) of their I.Q. ...".

If an I.Q. has a size, then all hope for redemption must also have a size, and a rather small one.


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## Nunty

*That* is an interesting language-related question, maybe for EO. IQ is measured quantitatively. People can have "high" IQs or "low" ones. So we talk about the "height" or their IQs? No, that doesn't work. Hmmm...


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## Ana Raquel

Everness said:


> Ms. Ridley, after reading the Koran and converting to Islam, says that it is a blueprint for feminism. A blueprint for feminism? Am I missing something here?[/quote]
> 
> Islamic feminism does exist
> 
> There was a Congress on Islamic Feminism last October in Spain.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4384512.stm
> 
> the participants dennounced and refuted the chauvinist interpretations of the quran made by traditional muslims and are helping to transform the discriminatory laws towards women.


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## Fernando

I guess Everness is translating from Spanish "el tamaño del CI", which is definitely correct in Spanish. Tamaño is usually translated as "size" in English. We talk indiferently about a "gran" (big)/ "alto" (high) or "pequeño" (small) / "bajo" ("low") CI. 

A problem of size, anyway. Breasts, IQ, earlobes...


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## timpeac

cuchuflete said:


> Please translate to English or some other language used in these forums: "...the size (_sic_) of their I.Q. ...".
> 
> If an I.Q. has a size, then all hope for redemption must also have a size, and a rather small one.


This reminds me of the Shirelles "will you still love me tomorrow?". I've often wondered if they are singing

Can I believe the magic of your sighs? or
Can I believe the magic of your size?

I suppose it depends on how important they think IQ is!


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## AGATHA2

Outsider said:


> Did Ms. Ridley catch the infamous Stockholm syndrome?


 
It must be a specially devastating version of that syndome


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## ireney

A beautiful woman is judged to be a beautiful woman. A clever woman is judged to be a clever woman. A bautiful and clever woman is judged to be a beautiful and clever woman.

I must confess that I don't remember my Bible by heart but I am positive it doesn't say anywhere (nor the Fathers of the Church in any of their writings that I'm aware of) that women should be judged by their anatomical features. In fact I am willing to bet that this is not the case.

I must also confess that I always thought that feminism was something more than "don't judge us by our looks" and it certainly never said "don't judge us by our looks. Well you can't can you? They're  hidden anyway. So there!"

Last confession: I haven't understood what's the question that I am really supposed to answer.


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## GenJen54

In his usual showing, Mr. Everness has decided to post a thread that: 
is highly controversial;
provokes ire in others; 
proves worthy of much eye-rolling.


He seems to take a great deal of enjoyment in posting these types of threads and then stepping back and watching the words - and stones - fly. 

Persons wishing to attempt an answer that is somehow related to the thread topic are welcome to post here.  If we cannot achieve this, the thread will be closed.


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## pedro0001

ireney said:


> I must confess that I don't remember my Bible by heart but I am positive it doesn't say anywhere (nor the Fathers of the Church in any of their writings that I'm aware of) that women should be judged by their anatomical features. In fact I am willing to bet that this is not the case.
> 
> I must also confess that I always thought that feminism was something more than "don't judge us by our looks" and it certainly never said "don't judge us by our looks. Well you can't can you? They're  hidden anyway. So there!"




Nop, but it does say that a woman is a property of his man.


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## ireney

@Pedro while Islam says a woman is her own boss so to speak? I seem to remember otherwise. My point is that I don't see any of the two religions as a blue print of feminism but if you consider that a religion that says that "looks don't matter" is the blueprint of feminism why convert? Christianity works fine.


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## Cereth

I have read  all of your opinions..very interesting all of them......i think that the title of this thread is ambiguous indeed but I don´t think is offensive or controversial..maybe wrong written...and full of "ideas laxas" but nothing more..

I think human beings should be judged by their actions..Shoudl all women be intelligent or big breasted or a mix of both...what about small breasted and stupid woman? They don´t even have to be kind people for success in life: _see Paris Hilton_....  

I think beauty is a mysterious thing, and I am glad it is!! that´s what make us unique!!...

mm...I didn´t speak about the afghan women...mm was I supposed to mention them?...did I misunderstood things??
mm...Anyway I guess I am just an ugly and low IQ woman...but big breasted...


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## pedro0001

ireney said:


> @Pedro while Islam says a woman is her own boss so to speak? I seem to remember otherwise. My point is that I don't see any of the two religions as a blue print of feminism but if you consider that a religion that says that "looks don't matter" is the blueprint of feminism why convert? Christianity works fine.



Hey! I didn't say that.


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