# Persian/Chinese: kâqaz



## Alijsh

I read in a Persian Wikipedia article that Persian kâqaz (paper) might be a loanword from Chinese. I'd like to know its Chinese writing and pronunciation and if it has any particular meaning. The article mentions Ku-chih, Kok-ci, Kok-dz.

- Thanks in advance


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## Spectre scolaire

A theory linking the Persian word for “paper” to Chinese is very probable. 

Paper was invented in China and was brought to Samarkand from where it spread to Damascus and then further to Europe – to the extent that they really wanted this new invention in the West. Christians associated it with Islam(!), and, on the top of it, there were mighty interest groups favouring parchment. Of course, all this changed with Gutenberg.

So, the Chinese invention eventually spread to Europe, but the word for it remained Persian - at least in Central Asia and Anatolia. The Turkish word for “paper” is _kâğıt_ – or a more archaic version, _kâğız, _where we clairly see the Iranian language connection. The Iranian language being spoken in Samarkand at the time in question must have been Sogdian.

There are two words for “book” in Chinese, 書 shū and 笈 jí – both in “traditional characters”, the second being also the “simplified” form. Together they make up 書笈 shūjí, “books, literature”.

This doesn’t look too bad, and considering the fact that Mandarin is not likely to be the most plausible _etymon_, I think we might be on the right track. Some knowledge about southern Chinese dialects (which often exhibit archaic phonetic features) or Classical chinese would be useful. I can be of no further help.
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## Flaminius

> The article mentions Ku-chih, Kok-ci, Kok-dz.


Assuming that these are to suggest the original pronunciation of the source word in Chinese, I don't find 書笈 satisfactory.  Using a Middle Chinese dictionary, I propose that an earlier pronunciation was _syogip_.


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## Spectre scolaire

What about Mandarin 穀 gǔ which seems to be the same as 褚 chǔ, “paper” (according to my Chinese dictionary), and which in Old Chinese (vide infra) apparently was _kōk_?

Etymology in Chinese is not my cup of tea! But I am trying to learn... 

I found a Russian database on the web, but because of the enormous size of the reference (once I found the word) - 1064 characters with endless substrings! - I can’t post it.

PS: Your link cannot be opened! 

Here is the home page of “Database query to Chinese characters”: [URL]http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?basename=\data\china\bigchina&root=config&morpho=0[/URL]
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## panjabigator

/kaagaz/, with a Persian pronunciation, is what is used in Urdu (I thought I might add...).


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## Bienvenidos

I was able to open the link; that's odd. 

As for this etymology, I have no clue


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## Lugubert

I was suspicious, because I find it less probable that a Chinese loan would use the letter ghain.

Platts' Hindustani Dictionary says,


			
				Platts said:
			
		

> (for orig. _kaagad_; said to be fr. _kaag_ 'sound or noise' + _da_, 'giving forth)


 
Doesn't seem to be immediately obvious, either.

McGregor says for काग़ज़ just [P. _kaagaz_ for orig. _kaagad_]; P. for Persian of course.


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## Frank06

Hi,


Alijsh said:


> I read in a Persian Wikipedia article that Persian kâqaz (paper) might be a loanword from Chinese. I'd like to know its Chinese writing and pronunciation and if it has any particular meaning. The article mentions Ku-chih, Kok-ci, Kok-dz.


I have been trying to look things up in a few sources:
1. In Gharib's Sogdian Dictionary (Sogdian, Persian, English) the word *k'g'dh'* (ka:gadha:, g/dh are fricatives here) is mentioned. The dictionary (sometimes) gives an etymology, but there is no indication of Chinese in the lemma, nor of Greek (see below). 
2. I looked it up in a few (modern) Persian, no reference to Chinese (nor Greek) either.
3. In the archives of a discussion group devoted to Sogdian I found a possible (and imho very plausible) derivation of Greek khárte:s, meaning "roll / page made of papyrus". The writer indicates that "presumably the Greek word was  already established in the language by the time the Sogdians came into  contact with Chinese paper."
Any which way, etymology can tell something about the history of the word, not about the history of the object itself.

Groetjes,

Frank

PS: For people interested in the history of paper, the transfer China > Central East > Middle East > ...: the article "Silk Road or Paper Road" is slightly more thrustworthy than the (English) Wikipedia article.


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## Ghabi

Spectre scolaire said:


> What about Mandarin 穀 gǔ which seems to be the same as 褚 chǔ, “paper” (according to my Chinese dictionary), and which in Old Chinese (vide infra) apparently was _kōk_?


There was actually the word 穀紙 (Cantonese pronunciation: [kʊk-tsi]), which is explained as a kind of paper made of bark pulp in an ancient text (compiled during the Later Han Dynasty).

More interestingly, in a 7th-century Sanskrit-Chinese glossary, compiled by a Chinese monk who had studied in India, "paper" is said to be kākali in Sanskrit. I don't know if it rings a bell.


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