# Καθαρά Δευτέρα



## larshgf

Hi,

In greek Shrove Monday is Καθαρά Δευτέρα. As Δευτέρα is a female word and the adjective καθαρός is inflected καθαρός-ή-ό I would expect Shrove Monday to be Καθαρή Δευτέρα ?

Best Regards
Lars


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## Helleno File

larshgf said:


> Hi,
> 
> In greek Shrove Monday is Καθαρά Δευτέρα. As Δευτέρα is a female word and the adjective καθαρός is inflected καθαρός-ή-ό I would expect Shrove Monday to be Καθαρή Δευτέρα ?
> 
> Best Regards
> Lars


You're right, of course. But this is another example of an older more literary form of the language continuing.  In this case it is an alternative feminine nominative.

It's difficult for us learners! On the other hand I would be surprised if 1% of Brits knew what Shrove meant.  I would expect it has many queries on the English Only forum!


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## dmtrs

'Καθαρά Δευτέρα' is used widely (as Helleno File described, as an archaism that does not sound much as such) but we also use the (more consistent with modern Greek) form 'Καθαρή Δευτέρα' which, I believe, tends to replace the older form, at least among younger people.


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## sotos

In religious context, old Koine is often used. e.g. άρτος instead of ψωμί.


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## larshgf

Thank you for the answers! Relieving that my grammatical sense is working. 
I was not able - right away - to find other examples in the Greek holydays of such an old, grammatical phenomenon. However in lyrics (songs etc) I have often seen literary variations of the language.


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## Acestor

There are a few forms around which retain the ending or the accentuation of the katharevousa (in fact, the ancient Greek) grammar. E.g. _η κυρία Μάρω_, _η κυρία με το σκυλάκι_ but _η κύρια πρόταση_. The word for “Mrs, lady” is still accented as it was in ancient Greek, while in other uses the feminine form of the adjective is _κύρια_.

In _Καθαρά_ we also have a different letter in the ending, in other cases the difference is only in the syllable on which the accent falls. In fact, just like _Καθαρά_, _Δευτέρα_ itself is such an old fossil. In other cases, the feminine adjective is _δεύτερη_. On the other hand, in _Τετάρτη_ (“Wednesday”) we only have a difference in the accent. In demotic Greek, the feminine adjective is _τέταρτη_.


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## Perseas

larshgf said:


> the adjective καθαρός is inflected καθαρός-ή-ό


In Modern Greek, yes. In Classical Greek (and Katharevousa) it was καθαρ-*ός,*-*ά*,-*όν.*
Another example, in which the archaic ending is preserved in Modern Greek: Μικρ*ά* Ασία = Asia Minor.

About this category of adjectives:
When the ending was precented by a consontant, except ρ, the endings were formed like this: -ος, -η, ον (καλ-ός, καλ-ή, καλ-όν).
When the ending was precented by a vowel and ρ, the  endings were: -ος, -α- ον (καθαρ-ός, καθαρ-ά, καθαρ-όν or δίκαι-ος, δικαί-α, δίκαι-ον).


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## fdb

Perseas said:


> In Classical Greek (and Katharevousa) it was καθαρ-*ός,*-*ά*,-*όν.*



Not to be too pedantic, but you mean "Attic" not "Classical" (which includes Doric, Ionic etc.)


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## bearded

fdb said:


> Not to be too pedantic, but you mean "Attic"


And - if I remember correctly - also Hellenistic Koiné. Many people call it ''classical/ancient'' as opposed to Modern Greek.


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## Perseas

fdb said:


> Not to be too pedantic, but you mean "Attic" not "Classical" (which includes Doric, Ionic etc.)


I mean Classical Attic, plus what bearded said. By the way, what are the endings of the adjectives in Doric and Ionic (nominative, 3 genders)?


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## apmoy70

Doric: «Κοθαρός, κοθαρά, κοθαρόν» kŏtʰarós (masc.), kŏtʰarā́ (fem.), kŏtʰarón (neut.).
Aeolic: «Κόθαρος, κόθαρος, κόθαρον» kótʰarŏs (masc. & fem.), kótʰarŏn (neut.).
I think the Ionic is identical to the Attic one.

Edit: The Ionic form is probably «καθαρής, καθαρή, καθαρόν» katʰarḗs (masc.), katʰarḗ (fem.), katʰarón (neut.).


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## Παντελής

larshgf said:


> Hi,
> 
> In greek Shrove Monday is Καθαρά Δευτέρα. As Δευτέρα is a female word and the adjective καθαρός is inflected καθαρός-ή-ό I would expect Shrove Monday to be Καθαρή Δευτέρα ?
> 
> Best Regards
> Lars


Καθαρά Δευτέρα. ONLY for house wives that day start cleaning their home not like everyday but, thoroughly inside and out even touching up paint work, they getting ready for the celebrations day coming in  48 days call "Λαμπρή" Brilliant day everything in the house that day, "πρέπει να λάμπη" must be shiny, the English word EASTER also means the same "the star which brings the dawn,


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## Παντελής

Καθαρά δευτέρα μόνο και μόνο, επειδή την ημέραν εκείνη αι οικοκυραί αρχίζουν πλήρως καθαρισμό του σπιτιού, τα παλιά τα χρόνια άσπριζαν τους τοίχους τους κορμούς των δενρών στη αυλή, Ετοιμασίες για την Λαμπρή, 
Καθαρά δευτέρα είνε Ήμέρα αρά και αγία (αργία) τα παιδιά με τους ενήλικες πέρνουν τους λόφους  να πετάξουν χαρταετό έτσι για να μη είναι στα πόδια των οικοκυρών


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## ioanell

larshgf said:


> I would expect Shrove Monday to be Καθαρή Δευτέρα ?



In regard with the form *Καθαρά Δευτέρα *Perseas in his post #7 gave the rule-explanation why *-ρά* instead of *-ρή*. See also “Η Αριστε*ρά*=The Left (in politics), whereas “Η αριστε*ρή *πλευρά=the left side”. As *Καθαρά Δευτέρα *was marking the first day of the Lent, which was officially established in the 4th century A.D., knowledgeable theologians used the Attic form of the adjective in order to name the Day.


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## ioanell

In order to prevent a possible misunderstanding and mixing up of Classical Greek (and specifically the Attic dialect) with the Hellenistic (or Alexandrian) Koine, regardless if some people have a wrong notion about this, we should note that:

It was the Attic dialect which was entirely adopted and imitated by scholars of the 1st century B.C. These scholars initiated the movement of Atticism, which, going on through the centuries, reached the time of the Greek Enlightenment in the 18th c. and evolved into the phase of the “ἀρχαΐζουσα” and later into the phase of the “καθαρεύουσα” language.

On the contrary, an evolution of Classical Greek (including elements from all Greek dialects, especially after Alexander’s conquests), the Hellenistic Koine (=colloquial), spoken by the common, everyday people from roughly around 300 B.C., evolved through the centuries into the demotic language and finally gave the Modern Greek.

Consequently, from a historical and linguistic point of view, it ‘s one thing talking about Classical Greek (of the 5th and 4th centuries B.C.) and another thing talking about the Hellenistic (or Alexandrian) Koine (from the 3rd century B.C. up to the 6th century A.D.).


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## Helleno File

ioanell said:


> In regard with the form *Καθαρά Δευτέρα *Perseas in his post #7 gave the rule-explanation why *-ρά* instead of *-ρή*. See also “Η Αριστε*ρά*=The Left (in politics), whereas “Η αριστε*ρή *πλευρά=the left side”. As *Καθαρά Δευτέρα *was marking the first day of the Lent, which was officially established in the 4th century A.D., knowledgeable theologians used the Attic form of the adjective in order to name the Day.



Does the same apply to why it is *ακρά*  αριστερά, or for that matter ακρά δεξιά?


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## Perseas

Helleno File said:


> Does the same apply to why it is *ακρά*  αριστερά, or for that matter ακρά δεξιά?


This adjective is still nowadays as in Classical Greek «άκρος-άκρα-άκρο(ν)», whenever used (rarely). 
Παράλληλη αναζήτηση


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## ioanell

Helleno File said:


> Does the same apply to why it is *ακρά* αριστερά, or for that matter ακρά δεξιά?



In my post #14 I referred to the ending -*ρά* (with the accent mark), because we were talking about the adjective “καθαρά” (fem.), which happened to be accented on the last syllable (in all 3 genders). In the adjective “άκρος-άκρα-άκρο(ν)=extreme”, however, the accent falls on the penultimate, so in the feminine we have *άκρα* and not *ακρά*.


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## Helleno File

ioanell said:


> In my post #14 I referred to the ending -*ρά* (with the accent mark), because we were talking about the adjective “καθαρά” (fem.), which happened to be accented on the last syllable (in all 3 genders). In the adjective “άκρος-άκρα-άκρο(ν)=extreme”, however, the accent falls on the penultimate, so in the feminine we have *άκρα* and not *ακρά*.


Oops, sorry my typo.


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## Αγγελος

There is also Ιερά Οδός, a street in Athens that originally led to Eleusis, and Ιερά Ιστορία, OldTestament history taught as a school subject. And the Dead Sea is Νεκρά Θάλασσα.


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