# London is also known for its architecture [clause elements?]



## mimisigy

In the following sentence I have to identify the clause elements(S,V,IO,SP,OP,A)

London is also known for its architecture .

1)S V A      2) S AUX V SP     3)S V DO IO    4) S V IO DO

Could you help me?
THANKS


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## PaulQ

London.......is... ......also...known ....for (by reason of)..............its....... architecture .
Subject...aux verb... adv... verb............preposition.............. poss. adj.... noun


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## mimisigy

thank you .. so the correct answer would be the first one (S V A ) ?


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## PaulQ

London.......is... ......also...known ....*{*for (by reason of)..............its....... architecture.*}*
Subject...aux verb... adv... verb.......*{*....preposition.............. poss. adj.... noun.........*}
..................................................{....prepositional phrase acting adverbially.....}*


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## mimisigy

Thank you so much !


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## mimisigy

SVA means subject , verb , adverbial
SP means Subject predicative
DO means Direct Object
IO means Indirect object
OP object predicative


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## manfy

Couldn't it also be answer 2) ? (assuming that SP stands for Subject Predicative)


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## Hermione Golightly

So in fact it was the sentence structure you were interested in?


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## mimisigy

yes


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## mimisigy

I think it's S V A and not S AUX V SP because we have a subject predicative when there is a Copular verb ..


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## Hermione Golightly

I deleted my question asking what the intials stand for - I meant all of them.



> Couldn't it also be answer 2) ? (assuming that SP stands for Subject Predicative)


That's what I'm wondering too.


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## mimisigy

manfy said:


> Couldn't it also be answer 2) ? (assuming that SP stands for Subject Predicative)


I think it's S V A and not S AUX V SP because we have a subject predicative when there is a Copular verb ..


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## mimisigy

Hermione Golightly said:


> I deleted my question asking what the intials stand for - I meant all of them.
> 
> 
> That's what I'm wondering too.


SVA means subject , verb , adverbial
SP means Subject predicative
DO means Direct Object
IO means Indirect object
OP object predicative


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## Hermione Golightly

> subject predicative when there is a Copular verb


I'm very out of practice with this stuff, but isn't* is *a copular verb?


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## mimisigy

Hermione Golightly said:


> I'm very out of practice with this stuff, but isn't* is *a copular verb?


aaah yes! you're right!


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## Myridon

Yes, and "known" is acting as a adjective here.
The subject is known. is the same structure as The subject is blue.  I know this as a "subject complement"


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## mimisigy

Myridon said:


> Yes, and "known" is acting as a adjective here.
> The subject is known. is the same structure as The subject is blue.  I know this as a "subject complement"



so , do you think that the correct answer for 'London is also known for its architecture'  is : S AUX V SP?


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## Hermione Golightly

We've both learnt something. So, we all agree that the pattern is SP, subject (adjectival) predicate, also known as complement.

By the way, a clause must contain a finite verb and might be part of a complex sentence. A  simple sentence is one main clause with various sorts of _phrases_, which are groups of words lacking a finite verb.
A complex sentence has one main clause and other subsidiary clause. When there's only one main verb and no subsidiary clauses, like yours, it's called a sentence.



> Yes, and "known" is acting as a adjective here.
> The subject is known. is the same structure as The subject is blue. I know this as a "subject complement"


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## Hermione Golightly

Posts crossed.
In my opinion,* 'is' *is the main verb, it's a copula ('linking' verb), and 'known' is an adjective, as Myridon says.
The whole Predicate/subject Complement is " ... also known for its architecture".


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## manfy

Hermione Golightly said:


> Posts crossed.
> In my opinion,* 'is' *is the main verb, it's a copula ('linking' verb), and 'known' is an adjective, as Myridon says.
> The whole Predicate/subject Complement is " ... also known for its architecture".


 
I see it the same way --- but then we have a problem with AUX in answer 2!
If AUX stands for Auxiliary (verb), I'd prefer answer 5) S AUX V PO   (PO for prepositional object)

I'm not a specialist in that field but I know that there exist different schools of thought when it comes to sentence analysis and they are somewhat overlapping. Without knowing the concept that the textbook author uses it's hard to give a definitive answer. Paul's suggestion SVA seems also justifyable


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## PaulQ

Myridon said:


> Yes, and "known" is acting as a adjective here.
> The subject is known. is the same structure as The subject is blue.  I know this as a "subject complement"


Although the distinction between an adjective and the past participle is often hard to see, here, it is somewhat clearer:

"Known" is a past participle in a passive construction as an agent can be implied:
"London is also known *[by people]* for its architecture."

The structure prevents it from acting adjectivally
"London is also famous [*by people*] for its architecture."


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## mimisigy

PaulQ said:


> Although the distinction between an adjective and the past participle is often hard to see, here, it is somewhat clearer:
> 
> "Known" is a past participle in a passive construction as an agent can be implied:
> "London is also known *[by people]* for its architecture."
> 
> The structure prevents it from acting adjectivally
> "London is also famous [*by people*] for its architecture."



thank you for your explanation !


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## manfy

I just wanted to add the very same to my post. "It is known" is also a passive construct, hence can be analysed as S AUX V.

@mimisigy : What does AUX stand for? Auxiliary verb or Auxiliary something else?


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## mimisigy

manfy said:


> I just wanted to add the very same to my post. "It is known" is also a passive construct, hence can be analysed as S AUX V.
> 
> @mimisigy : What does AUX stand for? Auxiliary verb or Auxiliary something else?



AUX stands for auxiliary verb


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## Hermione Golightly

(Crossed again)

The problem seems in part to centre around what we consider to be the verb: is the main verb* is *or is it *is known. *If _also_ were not between _is_ and _known_ I'd be more inclined to see _*is known* _as a sort of passive verb form.
There's a view too (I think) that _everything _after the subject is the predicate including the verb.

I agree with you Myridon that much depends on the linguistic approach, or school of thought.


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## manfy

mimisigy said:


> AUX stands for auxiliary verb


Well, if the textbook distinguishes between auxiliary verb and verb (which probably includes verb phrases) then none of the answer keys seem right!
All passive constructs need auxiliary verbs.
So it's either S AUX V A or my suggestion S AUX V PO.  (and then I'm still on the fence with the Subject Predicative -- it still doesn't seem nonsensical to me!)


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## Elixabete

People also know London for its architecture (active)
London is also known for its architecture (passive) 
However if we compare this last sentence to this one:
London is also well-known for its architecture
Can we still defend this sentence is a passive construct and well-known a past participle and not and adjective? What would be the active version, "People also know London well for its architecture"?


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## mimisigy

Elixabete said:


> People also know London for its architecture (active)
> London is also known for its architecture (passive)
> However if we compare this last sentence to this one:
> London is also well-known for its architecture
> Can we still defend this sentence is a passive construct and well-known a past participle and not and adjective? What would be the active version, "People also know London well for its architecture"?


 in the last one , 'well' seems an adverb


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## manfy

Elixabete said:


> London is also well-known for its architecture
> Can we still defend this sentence is a passive construct and well-known a past participle and not and adjective? What would be the active version, "People also know London well for its architecture"?


 
You're making a good point! In this form I'd quickly analyze the structure as S V SP; but here's the caveat:
My digital dictionary (Encarta World English Dictionary 2001; MW-based) says for 'well-known': *"not hyphenated after a verb"*. And with "London is also well known" I'd be inclined to analyze it as a passive construct with S AUX V and some adverbs.

Ultimately, multiple analyses are possible and justifyable:
*) S V SP -> (this is my favorite now because it fits best to textbook descriptions of these sentence elements)
*) S AUX V PO -> (here I assume that prepositional object is an acceptable option besides direct and indirect object -- if not, it should be!)
*) S AUX V A -> ("for its architecture" clearly has an adverbial function, even though the phrase doesn't fit some simplified textbook descriptions of adverbial phrases)

@mimisigy: Now I'm curious to know what your teacher (or textbook answer key) believes to be the correct answer (and why!) When you find out, please let us know!


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## Elixabete

I see your point, but my problem is that hyphen or not, in " London is also well known for is architecture"  well known is a single unit of meaning = famous,  whereas in the active version of the same " People also know London well for is architecture " the meaning changes, to know something well = to know something in depth , which leads me to believe that the first is not a true passive and therefore well known a compound adjetive. Consequently, if well known is to be considered an adjective, so should be known in " London is also known for its architecture" and then, which of the 4 answers in the multiple choice fits?


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## PaulQ

Elixabete said:


> f well known is to be considered an adjective, so should be known in " London is also known for its architecture"


This argument is erroneous, see #21 - the structure of the sentence does not allow for the past participle "known" to be an adjective.

The mistake is thinking that simply because "known" is an adjective in one construction, it must be an  adjective in all constructions - this is simply not so.

"He is a known thief." -> He has often stolen in the past. -> known is an adjective.
"He is a well known thief" -> Everyone knows he is a thief. -> well known is an adjective.

In both cases [well] known can be omitted and leave a sentence.

In "London is *also/well* known for its architecture. -> you cannot omit "known", but you can omit "well" and "also" both of which are adverbs which qualify a verb.


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## Elixabete

As much as you cannot omit famous in "London is also widely famous for its architecture" and you  must agree with me that famous is an adjective. I understand that known could be the participle of a passive construction but I would like to find a conclusive reason why it shouldn't be considered an adjective instead.


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## Elixabete

Would you analyse these two sentences differently: 
London is also known for its architecture (passive)
London is also renowed for is architecture (active)
Again, don't get me wrong, I don' want to imply you are wrong, I' d like to know why I am.


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## manfy

Now I get it -- it took me a while.
I agree with all your other statements but not with this one, I'm afraid:


PaulQ said:


> This argument is erroneous, see #21 - the structure of the sentence does not allow for the past participle "known" to be an adjective.


With post #21 you have proven that 'known' can be a verb in a passive construction, but not that it cannot be an adjective in an active sentence at the same time:
Let's look at the stripped-down version "London is known"
By adding an agent and trying to convert to an active voice structure we get "People know London." 
This proves that 'known' can be interpreted as a verb of a passive construct, but it does not say anything about its function as adjective.

Same test with "London is famous."
"People famous London."  This proves that the sentence is not passive or that famous is not a verb. To see what it is we have to do other tests. In our case it's obvious, 'famous' is an adjective and the sentence is active voice.   

Conclusion for the OP: You and Elixabete are both right. 'known' can be a verb in a passive construction *and* it can be an adjective used as subject predicative.
And I would argue that for this specific sentence the difference is purely academic because the meaning of the sentence does not change!

(But in other sentences with other verbs the interpretation as verb or adjective could create a substantial semantic change. I can't think of a good example right now, but I know it's true.)


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## PaulQ

manfy said:


> With post #21 you have proven that 'known' can be a verb in a passive construction, but not that it cannot be an adjective in an active sentence at the same time:


The question is, "If you had a gun pointing to your head, which would you say it is?"*

Particularly with the passive (or what appears to be the passive), the past participle can be interpreted adjectivally - there is no doubt about that. However, when an agent can be correctly implied, the solution is that it must be a past participle, a further test being "Can you replace the p.p. with a non-p.p. adjective?"


* I can't recall a case of using a gun in linguistics, but you take my point...


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## manfy

PaulQ said:


> The question is, "If you had a gun pointing to your head, which would you say it is?"*


 
In this case: Past participle, of course! ...if you are pointing the gun, that is. 

But seriously, I'm maintaining my position that the question of past participle as adjective or verb is academic in this specific sentence from the OP.
I believe that's caused by the fact that 'known' as adjective has the exact same meaning as 'known' as verb.

This is not the case with all the verbs. Some past participles that are now classified as adjectives have developed connotations that are quite different from their core meaning as verb. And with those verbs and sentences the distinction is important. For example, Elixabete's 'well-known' (with hyphen to make it clearly an adjective) and the verbal equivalent 'known well'. I can see myself getting talked into admitting a semantic difference (depending on context where they're used).
And I know there's some other past participles where the adjective and verb have the very same form but a clearly different primary meaning in their function (I researched that some time back, so I know they do exist!)


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## PaulQ

manfy said:


> But seriously, I'm maintaining my position that the question of past participle as adjective or verb is academic in this specific sentence from the OP.


Yes, I agree but, as a justifiable answer for examination purposes, I would favour "past participle" 70/30.





manfy said:


> And I know there's some other past participles where the adjective and verb have the very same form but a clearly different primary meaning in their function (I researched that some time back, so I know they do exist!)


. I am in the same position as you and can't think of one at the moment.


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## siares

(Distinguished?)
Beside 'famous' I can't think of an adjective which I would know (save for the -ed ones) which takes 'for' in the sense of: 'because of X', can you?


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## manfy

siares said:


> Beside 'famous' I can't think of an adjective which I would know (save for the -ed ones) which takes 'for' in the sense of: 'because of X', can you?


 
The evil twin of famous comes to mind: She's notorious for her promiscuity.

Any verb that takes a prepositional object with _for_ will probably allow the same object with the adjectival past participle. A good thesaurus should then be able to offer synonymous "true" adjectives.


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## siares

Thanks Manfy. OK, infamous too. 

I've changed my mind about this there and back a few times. I prefer the participle, but, I was expecting much more google hits for the 'active' version of the sentence
_*know the city for its *55 google hits
*knew the city for its* 4
*known the city for its* 6_
with London, 7, 2 and 0.


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## PaulQ

siares said:


> Beside 'famous' I can't think of an adjective which I would know (save for the -ed ones) which takes 'for' in the sense of: 'because of X', can you?


No, I can't and that would indicate that the past participle is a acting as a verb. 

I think that *for* is not so much "because of X" but "in respect of X". This does make a difference.

He was clever for (because of) many reasons. 
He was clever in respect of many reasons. 

If we consider:
If you want a bargain, the supermarket is known for its good value.
If you want a bargain, the supermarket is [the place] for known good value -> which is not the same (and somewhat weird...)

In the OED, following the verb to be (and associated passive constructions) *known* is seen as the past participle (as opposed to a complement) but when used attributively, it is classified as an adjective

This may simply be the OED's way of distinguishing the past participle and the past particle as an adjective. If it is, then, right or wrong and whether it matters of not, it does give some certainty, and is justified by the adjective's prime use as an attribute of a noun rather than a complement.

The confusion seems to be related to verbs of stative verbs, particularly of perception:

He was appreciated for his knowledge.
He was seen for what he was
He was recognised for his bravery
He was acknowledged for his great work in the field
But not always:
Diamonds were sought/mined/polished, etc for their beauty/value.
They were praised for their help.

and it doesn't always work
It was a cat but it was mistaken for a dog.

It seems to be related to this structure:

He was appreciated as knowledgeable.
He was seen as what he was

He was recognised as being brave.

He was acknowledged as an expert in the field.


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