# wie er entgöttert diese karge Welt



## Löwenfrau

Hi. That is the second strophe of Trakl's Gedicht 'Dämmerung':

_Wer hat den Feind, den Mörder dir bestellt, 
 Der deiner Seele letzten Funken stahl, 
 Wie er entgöttert diese karge Welt 
Zur Hure, häßlich, krank, verwesungsfahl!_

I'm not quite sure about the construction of the two last lines. First, what is the function of 'wie'? I'd expect an interrogation point in the ending of the second line, then I'd understand this 'wie' as an exclamation ("Oh, how..."). Secondly, 'zur' means that he 'entgöttert' the world so that the world became a world of the prostitutes? Thirdly, 'häßlich, krank, verwesungsfahl' are adjectives relating to 'diese karge Welt', correct?

English translation arises more or less the same questions:

_Who has ordered the enemy, the murderer for you, 
That stole the last spark of your soul, 
How he makes this scanty world godless 
To a whore, ugly, ill, pale with putrefaction!_

Thanks in advance!


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## Katharina Blum

_How he makes this scanty world godless
To a whore, ugly, ill, pale with putrefaction!_

Nothing wrong with that. Deprived of its gods, the world is an ugly whore.

As for the _wie_-exclamation: _Wie bist du doch gewachsen!_


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## Löwenfrau

Katharina Blum said:


> _How he makes this scanty world godless
> To a whore, ugly, ill, pale with putrefaction!_
> 
> Nothing wrong with that. Deprived of its gods, the world is an ugly whore.
> 
> As for the _wie_-exclamation: _Wie bist du doch gewachsen!_



I didn't think there was anything wrong, I just wasn't sure what it meant. 
So, it's not that he made the world a place for whores, but the world itself turns to a whore. Ok.
So, it is an exclamation. 

Thank you!


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## Löwenfrau

Then the adjectives too refer to 'Hure', of course.


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## Kajjo

Löwenfrau said:


> So, it is an exclamation.


Of course it is. The sentence even carries the proper exclamation mark!

See: canoonet - Satzarten: Ausrufesatz



Löwenfrau said:


> Then the adjectives too refer to 'Hure', of course.


Do they? I don't think so. I believe they attribute "karge Welt".

Imagine the world without the "zur Hure". Works anyway:

_Wie er entgöttert diese karge Welt 
häßlich, krank, verwesungsfahl!_

Further, a whore is neither putrified nor ugly. The world without soul might be.


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## bearded

Löwenfrau said:


> Then the adjectives too refer to 'Hure', of course


I suspect that the position of those adjectives is purposely ambiguous: the reader may attribute them to _Hure _(this would be my feeling), but also to _karge Welt_, as Kajjo says.  Maybe a whore was ugly, sick etc. in Trakl's opinion.


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## Katharina Blum

Löwenfrau said:


> Wie er entgöttert diese karge Welt
> Zur Hure, häßlich, krank, verwesungsfahl!


The adjectives are immediately postposed to _Hure. _It eludes me why they would determine anything else.


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## berndf

Löwenfrau said:


> Then the adjectives too refer to 'Hure', of course.


They can also be understood as adverbs and not as adjectives. This is sometimes a bit difficult to analyse because German has no adverb marker (-ly, -mente, ...).


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## Katharina Blum

berndf said:


> No, they are adverb, not adjectives. This is often a bit difficult to analyse because German has no adverb marker (-ly, -mente, ...).


What makes _häßlich, krank, verwesungsfahl _adverbs, rather than adjectives attributed to _Hure_?


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## berndf

Katharina Blum said:


> What makes _häßlich, krank, verwesungsfahl _adverbs, rather than adjectives attributed to _Hure_?


_Wie häßlich, krank, verwesungsfahl er diese karge Welt entgöttert...
_
Zugegeben nicht übermäßig wahrscheinlich aber möglich. Bei Dichtern weiß man ja nie_..._


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## bearded

Katharina Blum said:


> The adjectives are immediately postposed to _Hure. _It eludes me why they would determine anything else.


Vielleicht auf diese Weise: er entgöttert die karge Welt (und macht sie) hurenähnlich, hässlich, krank... (Deutung von Kajjos Deutung).


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## Katharina Blum

Lasst doch den armen Trakl in Ruhe (ruhen). 

_Der Mann, stark, kräftig, edel, schwang sich aufs Pferd._

Ich wette, Ihr wärt Euch unsicher, ob nicht das Pferd gemeint ist.


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## bearded

Katharina Blum said:


> _Der Mann, stark, kräftig, edel, schwang sich aufs Pferd._
> Ich wette, Ihr wärt Euch unsicher, ob nicht das Pferd gemeint ist.


Nein, aber bei _Der Mann schwang sich aufs Pferd, stark, kräftig, edel _hätte ich einen kleinen Zweifel.


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## Katharina Blum

bearded said:


> Nein, aber bei _Der Mann schwang sich aufs Pferd, stark, kräftig, edel _hätte ich einen kleinen Zweifel.


Zu Recht. Aber Trakl referiert einfach den Topos der verderbten Hure. Und die Angst, sich bei einer anzustecken. (Sorry, kein Penicillin.)


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## berndf

Katharina Blum said:


> Aber Trakl referiert einfach den Topos der verderbten Hure. Und die Angst, sich bei einer anzustecken.


Der Schluß ist zirkulär. Zwingend ist diese inhaltliche Interpretation nur dann, wenn man sich auf die von Dir favorisierte syntaktische Analyse festlegt und umgekehrt.


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## Katharina Blum

Umgekehrt: Ich habe den depressiven Morphinisten vor mir, der zu Huren geht, viele haben Geschlechtskrankheiten, er lebt in ständiger Angst, sich anzustecken. Mit diesem inhaltlichen Vorurteil gehe ich an die Syntax heran und sehe die unmittelbare Nähe der Adjektive zu _Hure._


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## berndf

Katharina Blum said:


> Umgekehrt: Ich habe den depressiven Morphinisten vor mir, der zu Huren geht, viele haben Geschlechtskrankheiten, er lebt in ständiger Angst, sich anzustecken. Mit diesem inhaltlichen Vorurteil gehe ich an die Syntax heran und sehe die unmittelbare Nähe der Adjektive zu _Hure._


Wie gesagt, eine zirkuläre Analyse; eins kommt mit dem anderen. Wo Du den Kreis beginnst ist wurscht.


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## Katharina Blum

D'accord.


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## berndf

Ich halte übrigens Deine Analyse auch für die wahrscheinlichste; nur eben nicht für zwingend.


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## Löwenfrau

Katharina Blum said:


> Deprived of its gods, the world is an ugly whore.



According to this interpretation, the whore is a metaphor for the world, she is that which the world has become. In this case, does it really matter to which one the adjectives refer? karge Welt = Hure.


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## Katharina Blum

There's a difference between _The ugly world becomes a whore _and _The world becomes an ugly whore. _


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## berndf

Katharina Blum said:


> There's a difference between _The ugly world becomes a whore _and _The world becomes an ugly whore._


Or
_The world becomes ugly and a whore._
which is another possible reading.


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## Katharina Blum

berndf said:


> Or
> _The world becomes ugly and a whore._
> which is another possible reading.


When you are ugly and a whore, you are an ugly whore.


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## berndf

Katharina Blum said:


> When you are ugly and a whore, you are an ugly whore.


The difference does matter as per your interpretation:


Katharina Blum said:


> Umgekehrt: Ich habe den depressiven Morphinisten vor mir, der zu Huren geht, viele haben Geschlechtskrankheiten, er lebt in ständiger Angst, sich anzustecken.


If
_Zur Hure, häßlich, krank, verwesungsfahl_​are four independent attributes of what the _Welt _becomes then _Hure _is very differently connotated.


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## Katharina Blum

You are right. But take _verwesungsfahl. _You say that of the complexion of a human being.


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## Kajjo

Ich bleibe dabei, dass ich beide Möglichkeiten sehe und es schwierig ist, klar zu definieren, was Trakl nun gemeint hat. Die Attribute würden sowohl zur Hure passen als auch zu einer Welt, die zur Hure geworden ist. Das ganze ist so oder so eine Metapher und keine realistische Beschreibung.


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## elroy

Löwenfrau said:


> the whore is a metaphor for the world, she is that which the world has become. In this case, does it really matter to which one the adjectives refer? karge Welt = Hure.


 Exactly!  It's a moot point.  The adjectives describe the attributes of a whore that now apply to the world, so they refer to both.  

This is very clear and straightforward to me.

Another example:

_You're like a watermelon, hard on the outside but sweet on the inside._

Obviously the attributes refer to both the watermelon and you.


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## Löwenfrau

elroy said:


> Exactly!  It's a moot point.  The adjectives describe the attributes of a whore that now apply to the world, so they refer to both.
> 
> This is very clear and straightforward to me.
> 
> Another example:
> 
> _You're like a watermelon, hard on the outside but sweet on the inside._
> 
> Obviously the attributes refer to both the watermelon and you.



The only problem is that in Portuguese I have to decline the adjectives. 'Whore' is feminin, while 'world' is masculine (o mundo).


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## Kajjo

Kajjo said:


> Die Attribute würden sowohl zur Hure passen als auch zu einer Welt, die zur Hure geworden ist.





elroy said:


> You're like a watermelon, hard on the outside but sweet on the inside.


Yes... What I meant... and said, I believe.

However, it is a difference whether these properties are all one enumeration or whether the later are atrributes to the first.


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## elroy

Löwenfrau said:


> The only problem is that in Portuguese I have to decline the adjectives. 'Whore' is feminin, while 'world' is masculine (o mundo).


 I would definitely use masculine.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> _You're like a watermelon_


That is exactly where we don't agree. It is not necessarily mean "like a whore which is <list of attributes>".
It could well mean that the world has become

eine Hure
häßlich
krank
verwesungsfahl
without the four properties being connected. I agree that Katharina's and your reading is the most likely one. But it is my no means as clear as you present it. Kajjo's interpretation remains possible.


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## Löwenfrau

elroy said:


> I would definitely use masculine.



I think it fits better too. I think, in the end, that if the adjectives become clearly connected to 'Hure', not to 'Welt', the poem will sound a lot more childish. This might be a subjective impression of mine, but... in Portuguese, that wouldn't sound good at all.


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## Kajjo

Löwenfrau said:


> I think it fits better too.


Really? So we agree that the attributes belong to world rather than whore?


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## Katharina Blum

So y'all agree the world's got a pale complexion _(fahl) _although that's by all means a human being's attribute?


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## Kajjo

Katharina Blum said:


> So y'all agree the world's got a pale complexion _(fahl) _although that's by all means a human being's attribute?


Again, I agree that both interpretations are valid and possible.

But yes, _fahl_ is certainly applicable to non-human nouns.

_Fahle Schatten durchzogen die Nacht.
Die Atmosphäre wirkt fahl und langweilig.
Fahl wirkende Farben vermittelten den Eindruck von..._

Of course, _fahl_ as attribute for skin colour is common, but not the only idiomatic composition.

DWDS              –                fahl

Duden | fahl | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme, Herkunft


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## Katharina Blum

The world can't be _fahl. _It can be, and is by Trakl, likened to a _fahl _human being.


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## Löwenfrau

Kajjo said:


> But yes, _fahl_ is certainly applicable to non-human nouns.
> 
> _Fahle Schatten durchzogen die Nacht.
> Die Atmosphäre wirkt fahl und langweilig.
> Fahl wirkende Farben vermittelten den Eindruck von..._
> 
> Of course, _fahl_ as attribute for skin colour is common, but not the only idiomatic composition.



I agree, specially if we are talking about poetry. If the world can be evil, why can't it be pale?



Kajjo said:


> So we agree that the attributes belong to world rather than whore?



I think it belongs to both, and maybe Trakl's construction is meant to confuse both things. But since I have to translate it into Portuguese, and we can't be sure whether he meant the whore, the world or both, I'd better go for 'the world'... I have to make a choice anyway.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Really? So we agree that the attributes belong to world rather than whore?


Even in Elroy's interpretation, masculine would be more appropriate. The properties are transferred from the whore to the world as the world becomes like a whore, which has those properties. The interpretations do not differ in that they belong to the world but in why and how and what properties the world shares with the whore.


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## Löwenfrau

berndf said:


> Even in Elroy's interpretation, masculine would be more appropriate. The properties are transferred from the whore to the world as the world becomes like a whore, which has those properties. The interpretations do not differ in that they belong to the world but in why and how and what properties the world shares with the whore.


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