# grand- (grandchild, grandchildren)



## cdubya

Hi! 
In English, for the name of the child of your child, we give them the prefix "grand" - such as grandchild, granddaughter, grandson, etc.

I am curious if there are other languages that give them a "grand" prefix.

I am not too aware of many languages, but I know it does not occur in...

French: Grands-parents -> petit-enfant (grand is dropped for the child and replaced with "little" prefix)
German: GroBeltern -> der Enkel (no GroB prefix for children...)
Spanish: abuelo -> nieto/nieta (no sign of a Grand prefix here...)

Is anybody aware of any occurances besides English where the children are given a "grand" prefix? I hope my question makes sense...
Or, if anybody knows of a book where I can find more information about it? I find it fascinating how in English, the child is so tiny but is already given such an important title, grand, when grand usually is reserved for things that are large, old, impressive, etc.


----------



## Encolpius

The only language I can remember is Dutch that uses the opposite 
grandchild = kleinkind, granddaughter = kleindochter
which seem more logical


----------



## MarX

In Indonesian we don't have such thing. Interestingly, we have independent words for _grandchild_ and _grandgrandchild_.
So:
_child/daughter/son_ = *anak*
_grandchild/granddaughter/grandson_ = *cucu*
_grandgrandchild/-daughter/-son_ = *cécé*


For _grandgrandparents_ we do add *tua* (=_old_) though. And the word for _parent(s)_ is literally "_old person_". *Orang* = _person_ (compare: *orangutan*)
So:
_parent(s)_ = *orangtua*
_grandmother_ = *oma, nénék*
_grandfather_ = *opa, kakék*
_grandgrandmother_ = *oma tua*
_grandgrandfather_ = *opa tua*


----------



## Tamar

> In Indonesian we don't have such thing. Interestingly, we have independent words for _grandchild_


 Same goes for Hebrew:
Grandson - נכד nekhed
Granddaughter - נכדה nekhda

Grangrandson - נין nin
Grandgranddaughter - נינה nina 

(There is no &quot;grand*child*&quot; - it has to be either a boy or a girl).

In Hebrew grandmother is סבתא (the ב is a 'v' sound but there an assimilation, so it's pronounced 'safta').
Grandfather is סבא saba.

Grandgrandfather is סבא רבא saba raba, grandgrandmother סבתא רבה (or סבתא רבתא safta rabata)
רבא is Aramic for grand. 



> _grandmother_ = *oma*
> _grandfather_ = *opa*


Same as Dutch 

Btw, 'anak' in Hebrew means huge, (a) giant


----------



## apmoy70

MarX said:


> In Indonesian we don't have such thing


Same thing for Greek:
The grandson is εγγονός (engon*o*s, _m._) from the ancient ἔγγονος (*e*ngonos, from ἔκ-γονος and after assimilation ἔγγονος, the descendant).
The grand-daughter is εγγονή (engon*i*, _f._) or εγγόνα (eng*o*na, _f._) from the ancient ἐγγόνη (eng*o*nē).
Grand children is εγγόνια (eng*o*nia, plural _n._), from the ancient ἔγγονα (*e*ngona, plural _n._).


----------



## ger4

Estonian

_lapselaps_ "child's child" = grandchild
_pojapoeg_ "son's son" = grandson
_tütrepoeg_ "daughter's son" = grandson
_pojatütar_ "son's daughter" = granddaughter
_tütretütar_ "daughter's daughter" = granddaughter


----------



## AutumnOwl

Swedish has the same as Estonian:
_barnbarn_ "child's child" = grandchild
_sonson_ "son's son" = grandson
_dotterson_ "daughter's son" = grandson
_sondotter_ "son's daughter" = granddaughter
_dotterdotter_ "daughter's daughter" = granddaughter

_farföräldrar_ "father's parents" = grandparents
_farfar_ "father's father" = grandfather
_farmor_ "father's mother" = grandmother
_morföräldrar_ "mother's parents" = grandparents
_morfar_ "mother's father" = grandfather
_mormor_ "mother's mother" = grandmother


----------



## Dymn

MarX said:


> Interestingly, we have independent words for _grandchild_ and _grandgrandchild_.


Then the question is: at which generation relatives cease to be called with indepedent words? I consider the "I" as 0th generation.

2nd: English, French*, German (going upwards), Dutch, Estonian, Swedish
3rd: German (going downwards), Indonesian (going upwards), Hebrew (going upwards), Greek, Catalan, Spanish
4th: Indonesian (going downwards), Hebrew (going downwards)

Don't hesitate to correct me.

Catalan (masculine, feminine):

4th: _rebesavi, rebesàvia_
3rd: _besavi, besàvia_
2nd: _avi, àvia_
1st: _pare, mare_

-1st: _fill, filla_
-2nd: _nét, néta_
-3rd: _besnét, besnéta_
-4th: _rebesnét, rebesnéta _

Spanish:

4th: _tatarabuelo, tatarabuelo_
3th: _bisabuelo, bisabuela_
2nd: _abuelo, abuela_
1st: _padre, madre
_
-1st:_ hijo, hija_
-2nd:_ nieto, nieta_
-3rd: _bisnieto, bisnieta_
-4th:_ tataranieto, tataranieta

* _French has _aïeul _and _aïeule _("grandfather" / "grandmother") but I don't know if their use is very common.


----------



## AutumnOwl

In Swedish it would be possible to go back (or forward) as long as you want, take for example prince George of Cambridge's relationship to queen Victoria:
George - farfarsmorfarsfarfarsmor -> Victoria
Victoria - sonsonsondottersonson -> George

You can also get other relative involved:
Queen Louise of Sweden - systersonsonson -> George
George - farfarsfarsfaster (fathers-fathers-fathers aunt) -> Louise
Queen Louise was the sister of princess Alice, the mother of the duke of Edinburgh


----------



## merquiades

4.  great-great-grandmother/great-great-grandfather/great-great-grandparents,  arrière-arrière-grand-mère/arrière-arrière-grand-père/arrière-arrière-grands-parents
3.  great-grandmother/greatgrandfather/great-grandparents,  arrière-grand-mère/arrière-grand-père/arrière-grands-parents
2.  grandmother/grandfather/greatgrandparents,   grand-mère/grand-père/grands-parents
1.  mother/father/parents,  mère/père/parents

1.  daughter/son/children,  fille/fils/enfants
2.  granddaughter/grandson/grandchildren,  petite-fille/petit-fils/petits-enfants
3.  great-granddaughter/great-grandson/great-grandchildren,   arrière-petite-fille/arrière-petit-fils/arrière-petits-enfants
4.  great-great-granddaughter/great-great-grandson/great-great-grandchildren,   arrière-arrière-petite-fille/arrière-arrière-petit-fils/arrière-arrière-petits-enfants

English and French seem to mirror each other quite a bit.  Every generation the name gets longer as you keep adding _great/arrière _(backward) to the base root.  It does seem a bit illogical that English uses _grand_ for both offspring and parents.  _Grand_ contrasting _petit_ makes more sense.  It is worth mentioning that _grand_ is invariable in French but _petit_ agrees in gender.

_Aïeul(e)(x)_ is not so specific.  It just means something like ancestor or old family member.  I have heard it used to mean past generations in general (_nos aïeux_).  I just realized that it probably has the same etymological origin as _abuelo.
Avus > Aviolum > A(b)(i)uel(o) < Abuelo/Aïeul_
The adding of _grand _is thus innovative
Edit:  I just checked the dictionary and _aïeul(e), bisaïeul(e), trisaïeul(e)_ exist for the three generations, but I have never heard it nor read it.


----------



## ger4

In German, the prefix _Ur_- is used in order to go further. Perhaps this can be compared with Catalan _bes_- and Spanish _bis_- :


Diamant7 said:


> Catalan (masculine, feminine):
> 
> 4th: _rebesavi, rebesàvia_
> 3rd: _besavi, besàvia_
> 2nd: _avi, àvia_
> 1st: _pare, mare_
> 
> -1st: _fill, filla_
> -2nd: _nét, néta_
> -3rd: _besnét, besnéta_
> -4th: _rebesnét, rebesnéta _
> 
> Spanish:
> 
> 4th: _tatarabuelo, tatarabuelo_
> 3th: _bisabuelo, bisabuela_
> 2nd: _abuelo, abuela_
> 1st: _padre, madre
> _
> -1st:_ hijo, hija_
> -2nd:_ nieto, nieta_
> -3rd: _bisnieto, bisnieta_
> -4th:_ tataranieto, tataranieta_


3rd: _Ur-groß-vater, Ur-groß-mutter_
2nd: _Groß-vater, Groß-mutter_
1st: _Vater, Mutter
_
- 1st: _Sohn, Tochter_
- 2nd: _Enkel-sohn, Enkel-tochter_
- 3rd: _Ur-enkel-sohn, Ur-enkel-tochter_

_Ur_- can then be repeated to go further:
_Ur-ur-groß-vater_ etc...


----------



## ilocas2

Czech:

grandchild - *vnouče*, plural *vnoučata*
grandson - *vnuk*, plural *vnuci/vnukové*
granddaughter - *vnučka*, plural *vnučky*

great-grandchild - *pravnouče*
great-great-grandson - *prapravnuk*
etc.


----------



## Dymn

^How about grandparents and great-grandparents?


----------



## ilocas2

^
grandparent - *prarodič*, pl. *prarodiče*
great-grandparent - *praprarodič*
great-great-grandparent - *prapraprarodič*
etc.

grandmother - *babička*, pl. *babičky*
great-grandmother - *prababička*
etc.

grandfather - *děda*, pl. *dědové*; *dědeček*, pl. *dědečci/dědečkové*
great-grandfather - *praděda*; *pradědeček*
etc.

of course, pra-words have the same plural endings like non-pra-words, it also relates to my previous post in this thread


----------



## apmoy70

^^Similar thinking in Greek:

Grandparents: *«Παππούδες»* [paˈpuðes] (masc. nom. pl.); grandfather = *«παππούς»* [paˈpus] (masc.) < Byz.Gr. masc. *«πάππους» páppous* < Classical masc. *«παππίας» păppías*, familiar form of *«πάππας» pắppas* (masc.) < onomatopoeic, baby talk for father; grandmother = *«γιαγιά»* [ʝaˈʝa] (fem.) < onomatopoeic, baby talk for grandmother. 
Great-grandfather: *«Προπάππους»* [proˈpapus] (masc.).
Great-grandmother: *«Προγιαγιά»* [proʝaˈʝa] (fem.).
Great-great-grandfather: *«Προ-προπάππους»* [proproˈpapus] (masc.).
Great-great-grandmother: *«προ-προγιαγιά»* [proproʝaˈʝa] (fem.) 
etc 
In general you add the prefix *«προ-»* [pro-] < Classical adv. prefix and preposition *«πρό» pró* --> _forth, forward, before_ (PIE *pro- _forward_ cf Skt. प्र- (pra-), _in front, forth_, Av. fra-, Lat. pro-) for further generation of ancestry.

Great-grandchildren: * Δισέγγονοι»* [ðiˈseŋgoni] (nom. masc. pl.) lit. _twice-grandchildren_; great-grandson = *«δισέγγονος»* [ðiˈseŋgonos] (masc.); great-grandddaughter = *«δισέγγονη»* [ðiˈseŋgoni] (fem.).
Great-great-grandson: *«Τρισέγγονος»* [triˈseŋgonos] (masc.) lit. _thrice-grandson_.
Great-great-granddaughter: *«Τρισέγγονη»* [triˈseŋgoni] (fem.) 
etc.
In theory one can add the prefix *«τρισ-»* [tris-] (thrice), *«τετρασ-»* [tetras-] (four times) etc. for further generation of descent.


----------



## ger4

Estonian

_vana/vanem_ = old/older
_vanemad_ "elders" = parents
_vanavanemad_ "old-elders" = grandparents
_vanavanavanemad_ "old-old-elders" = great-grandparents


----------



## SuperXW

Technically, there is no "grand" prefix in Chinese. We have specific titles for each family members.
However, Chinese words are formed by characters, and the characters may associate with some meaning, kind of like "prefix".

Grandfather-father's father: 爷爷 ye2ye0; 公公 gong1gong0; 祖父 zu3fu4 (zu3="ancestor", fu4="father")
Grandfather-mother's father: 姥爷 lao3ye0 (lao3="grandma"); 外公 wai4gong1 (wai4="outer"); 外祖父 wai4zu3fu4 ("outer ancestor father")
Grandmother-father's mother: 奶奶 nai3nai0; 婆婆 po2po0; 祖母 zu3mu3 (zu3="ancestor", mu3="mother")
Grandmother-mother's mother: 姥姥 lao3lao0; 外婆 wai4po2 (wai4="outer"); 外祖母 wai4zu3mu3 ("outer ancestor mother")
Grandson: 孙子 sun1zi0 or just 孙 sun1
Granddaughter: 孙女 sun1nü3 (nü3=“female”)
Great-grandfather: adding 太 tai4 in front of grandfather
Great-great-great-grandfather: Adding 太太太 tai4tai4tai4...
Great-grandson: adding 曾 zeng1 in front of grandson
Great-great-great-grandson: Adding 曾曾曾 zeng1zeng1zeng1...


----------



## Messquito

SuperXW said:


> Grandfather-father's father: 爷爷 ye2ye0; 公公 gong1gong0; 祖父 zu3fu4 (zu3="ancestor", fu4="father")
> Grandfather-mother's father: 姥爷 lao3ye0 (lao3="grandma"); 外公 wai4gong1 (wai4="outer"); 外祖父 wai4zu3fu4 ("outer ancestor father")
> Grandmother-father's mother: 奶奶 nai3nai0; 婆婆 po2po0; 祖母 zu3mu3 (zu3="ancestor", mu3="mother")
> Grandmother-mother's mother: 姥姥 lao3lao0; 外婆 wai4po2 (wai4="outer"); 外祖母 wai4zu3mu3 ("outer ancestor mother")
> Grandson: 孙子 sun1zi0 or just 孙 sun1
> Granddaughter: 孙女 sun1nü3 (nü3=“female”)
> Great-grandfather: adding 太 tai4 in front of grandfather
> Great-great-great-grandfather: Adding 太太太 tai4tai4tai4...
> Great-grandson: adding 曾 zeng1 in front of grandson
> Great-great-great-grandson: Adding 曾曾曾 zeng1zeng1zeng1...


In Taiwanese Chinese:
Grandfather-father's father: 爺爺 ye2ye0; 祖父 zu3fu4 (zu3="ancestor", fu4="father"); (Hokkien) 阿公 a gōng 祖公 zō gōng
Grandfather-mother's father: 外公 wai4gong1 (wai4="outer"); 外祖父 wai4zu3fu4 ("outer ancestor father"); (Hokkien) 阿公 a gōng 祖公 zō gōng
Grandmother-father's mother: 奶奶 nai3nai0; 祖母 zu3mu3 (zu3="ancestor", mu3="mother"); (Hokkien) 阿嬤 a mà 祖嬤 zō mà
Grandmother-mother's mother: 外婆 wai4po2 (wai4="outer"); 外祖母 wai4zu3mu3 ("outer ancestor mother"); (Hokkien) 阿嬤 a mà 祖嬤 zō mà
Grandson: 孫子 sun1zi0 or just 孫 sun1
Granddaughter: 孫女 sun1nü3 (nü3=“female”)
Great-grandfather: adding 曾 zeng1 in front of grandfather (曾: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 is heiroglyphic，looking like smoke/steam(
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) coming up from a net tray (
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




); the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 under represents a pot. --> to stack up food to roast it-->to stack/pile things up; to fold-->throwback(隔代, literally generations that are between more than 1 "interval(?)")
Great-great-great-grandfather: Adding  曾曾曾 zeng1zeng1zeng1... (It's only colloquial; the formal one should be: Great-great grandfather-高祖父; Great-great-great-grandfather-天祖父...etc. The order should be: 父、祖、曾、高、天、烈、太、遠、鼻)
Great-grandson: adding 曾 zeng1 in front of grandson
Great-great-great-grandson: Adding 曾曾曾 zeng1zeng1zeng1... (Formal: 子、孫、曾、玄、來、晜、仍、雲、耳)


----------



## 810senior

Japanese:
Grandfather - 祖父 sofu (ancestor-father)
Grandmother - 祖母 sobo (ancestor-mother)
Grandson - 孫 mago (descendant)
Granddaughter - 孫娘 magomusume (descendant-daughter)
Grand-grandson - ひ(or 曾)孫 himago (*?? I have no clue how to translate _hi-_, that affix indicates as something same as grand-grand in English)
Grand-granddaughter - ひ(or 曾)孫娘 himagomusume (same as above)

I found in Japanese that there are also many terms about grand-grand things but I know next to nothing about them, unfamiliar and complicated..


----------



## Gavril

Welsh:

- ”grandfather” - _*taid*_ or _*tad-cu*_
- ”grandmother” - _*nain*_ or _*mam-gu*_

_tad-cu_ and _mam-gu_ are phrases composed of _tad_ ”father” and _mam_ ”mother” plus the adjective _cu_ ”dear, beloved”. _nain_ may be related to Greek _nanna_ ”aunt”; _taid_ seems to be related to _tad_ in some way, but I'm not sure exactly what its theorized origin is.

- ”great-grandfather” and ”great-grandmother” are formed by prefixing the word _hen_ ”old” to the above words: thus _*hen daid*,_ _*hen nain *_(these are sometimes written as a single word), _*hen dad-cu*, _etc.

- ”grandson” or ”grandchild” is _*ŵyr*,_pronounced ['u.ir], and possibly from the same root as Irish _ó _/ _ua_ ”grandchild” and Latin avus "grandfather", plus an -_r_ suffix

- ”granddaughter” is _*ŵyres *_(the _-es _suffix is the same feminizing element seen in English _princ*ess*_, _waitr*ess*_, etc.); it may historically have been normal to use _*ŵyr *_for both granddaughters and grandsons

- For ”great-grandson/granddaughter”, the prefix _gor_- (”over, above”) is added: _*gorŵyr*_, _*gorŵyres*_.

–---

Armenian:

*- *”grandfather”:* պապիկ* (_papik_) ; possibly based on Persian _bâbâ_ ”dad, grandfather”
*- *”grandmother”:* տատիկ* (_tatik_) (imitative origin?)

Some older terms are *հավ *(_hav_) ”grandfather”, from the same source as Latin _avus _”grandfather”, *հան *(_han_) ”grandmother”, related to Greek _annís_ (same meaning), and *մամ *(_mam_) ”grandmother”, perhaps based on Persian _mâm_ ”mother”

*- *”great-grandfather”:* նախապապ* (_nakhapap_) or *մեծ պապ* (_mets pap_) ; the first is formed from նախ- ”first, fore-” + պապ ”grandfather”; the second is a phrase that literally means ”great/big grandfather”

*- *”great-grandmother”: *նախատատ *(_nakhatat_) or *մեծ տատ* (_mets tat_) ; formed analogously to the previous two words

*- *”grandchild” (male or female):* թոռ* (_torr_) ; possibly from the same source as Lithuanian _tarnas_ ”servant”; one can specify "granddaughter" by saying *թոռուհի *(_torruhi_) which is թոռ plus the feminizing suffix -ուհի

*- *”great-grandson”: *ծոռ* (_tsorr_) ; have not found any etymological info on this word -- it may have been influenced by թոռ in some way

- "great-granddaughter": *ծոռնուհի* (_tsorruhi_) = ծոռ plus feminizing -ուհի


----------



## ger4

Gavril said:


> Welsh: - ”grandfather” - _*taid*_ or _*tad-cu*_
> - ”grandmother” - _*nain*_ or _*mam-gu*_
> 
> _tad-cu_ and _mam-gu_ are phrases composed of _tad_ ”father” and _mam_ ”mother” plus the adjective _cu_ ”dear, beloved”.


Interesting, in Danish 'grandfather' is _bedstefar_ ("best father"), grandmother _bedstemor_,  grandparents _bedsteforældre... _According to ordnet.dk thought to be a calque of Dutch _bestevader_, _bestemoeder_ (are these expressions used in Dutch?)


----------



## Armas

Holger2014 said:


> Estonian
> 
> _lapselaps_ "child's child" = grandchild
> _pojapoeg_ "son's son" = grandson
> _tütrepoeg_ "daughter's son" = grandson
> _pojatütar_ "son's daughter" = granddaughter
> _tütretütar_ "daughter's daughter" = granddaughter



Similarly in Finnish

_lapsenlapsi
pojanpoika
tyttärenpoika
pojantytär
tyttärentytär_


----------



## Encolpius

Hungarian 

1st level  nagy- [nagyanya, nagyapa]
2nd leve déd- [dédanya, dédapa; dédunoka] [anya mother, apa father, unoka grandchild]
3rd level ük- [ükanya, ükapa; ükonoka]
nth level ükükükük....ükapa, anya..


----------



## mataripis

In Tagalog, grandchildren is called Apo(h). Grandparent is lolo,lola .but the older form of Tagalog puzzled me cause the hermit being or a very old being from antiquity is called APO(h) .


----------

