# Persian andar and Latin intra/inter



## PersoLatin

Is Persian andar اندر which means 'within' and 'in', the cognate of intra/inter?


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## ahvalj

Yes, both _ändär_ and _inter _come from PIE _*enter-_. Cp. also Sanskrit _antar_, Avestan _antarə_ and Old Persian_ antar._


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## PersoLatin

Thank you ahvalj.
Is there an opposite to antar in the sense of outside, in the same way as 'in' and 'ex' act in Latin?


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## ahvalj

The opposition "in (where?)" vs. "in (where to?)" was expressed by case forms. The meaning "from" was expressed by e. g. _apa_ (cp. _ἀπό, ab, of_) as well as by the Ablative case.

As to your original question, Sanskrit has _antar_ vs. _antarā_, which resembles the Latin situation with _inter : intrā : intrō,_ at least formally, but I haven't seen the counterparts of _antarā_ mentioned for Iranic. On the other hand, Sanskrit and Avestan have _atrā/aϑrā_ "there" or _kutrā/kuϑrā_ "where".


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## PersoLatin

We also have andarun which could mean _intrā,_ as it refer to 'the happenings within' as as well as 'beings within', forgive layperson's terminology.


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> Is Persian andar اندر which means 'within' and 'in', the cognate of intra/inter?



Latin _inter_ means "between, among" but Persian _andar_ means "in, under".

چو گفتار آن ترکش آمد به گوش
ز اسپ اندر افتاد و زو رفت هوش

So I think it is from PIE **ndher*:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=under&allowed_in_frame=0

*under (prep., adv.)*
    Old English under (prep.) "beneath, among, before, in the presence of, in subjection to, under the rule of, by means of," also, as an adverb, "beneath, below, underneath," expressing position with reference to that which is above, from Proto-Germanic *under- (cognates: Old Frisian under, Dutch onder, Old High German untar, German unter, Old Norse undir, Gothic undar), from PIE *ndher- "under" (cognates: Sanskrit adhah "below;" Avestan athara- "lower;" Latin infernus "lower," infra "below").


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## ahvalj

CyrusSH said:


> Latin _inter_ means "between, among" but Persian _andar_ means "in, under".
> 
> چو گفتار آن ترکش آمد به گوش
> ز اسپ اندر افتاد و زو رفت هوش
> 
> So I think it is from PIE **ndher*:
> 
> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=under&allowed_in_frame=0
> 
> *under (prep., adv.)*
> Old English under (prep.) "beneath, among, before, in the presence of, in subjection to, under the rule of, by means of," also, as an adverb, "beneath, below, underneath," expressing position with reference to that which is above, from Proto-Germanic *under- (cognates: Old Frisian under, Dutch onder, Old High German untar, German unter, Old Norse undir, Gothic undar), from PIE *ndher- "under" (cognates: Sanskrit adhah "below;" Avestan athara- "lower;" Latin infernus "lower," infra "below").


*_n̥dʰer- _(>_under, inferus_) is attested as Avestan _aδairi_ "under, below", Middle Persian _adar,_ later Middle Persian _ēr. _Also _*hača-adara- _> Middle Persian _hačadar, _Classical Persian _zēr._


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## CyrusSH

ahvalj said:


> *_n̥dʰer- _(>_under, inferus_) is attested as Avestan _aδairi_ "under, below", Middle Persian _adar,_ later Middle Persian _ēr. _Also _*hača-adara- _> Middle Persian _hačadar, _Classical Persian _zēr._



They are synonyms.

چو گفتار آن ترکش آمد به گوش
ز اسپ *اندر* افتاد و زو رفت هوش

چو گفتار آن ترکش آمد به گوش
ز اسپ *زیر* افتاد و زو رفت هوش


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> Latin _inter_ means "between, among" but Persian _andar_ means "in, under".
> 
> چو گفتار آن ترکش آمد به گوش
> ز اسپ اندر افتاد و زو رفت هوش



Although I can see in this piece of poetry, that andar is in the context of under but this doesn't change the meaning of andar to under, poetic license may have a hand here.



ahvalj said:


> *_n̥dʰer- _(>_under, inferus_) is attested as Avestan _aδairi_ "under, below", Middle Persian _adar,_ later Middle Persian _ēr. _Also _*hača-adara- _> Middle Persian _hačadar, _Classical Persian _zēr._


is what I believe to be correct for under.

Any insight on andarun?


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> They are synonyms.
> 
> چو گفتار آن ترکش آمد به گوش
> ز اسپ *اندر* افتاد و زو رفت هوش
> 
> چو گفتار آن ترکش آمد به گوش
> ز اسپ *زیر* افتاد و زو رفت هوش



That's proof that poetic licence has allowed the poet to use andar instead of zir, despite its inappropriateness (of andar)


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## ahvalj

In principle, one may postulate the PIE *_endʰer _(with the _e_-grade line in *_enter_) as the source of this second meaning in Persian: are there independent confirmations of this form in other branches?


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> Thank you ahvalj.
> Is there an opposite to antar in the sense of outside, in the same way as 'in' and 'ex' act in Latin?



As I said Latin _antar_ doesn't mean the same as Persian _andar_, opposite to Persian _andar_ is _abar_ (اندرون & بیرون), cognate to English _over_: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=over&allowed_in_frame=0

*over (prep.)*
    Old English ofer "beyond, above, upon, in, across, past; on high," from Proto-Germanic *uberi (cognates: Old Saxon obar, Old Frisian over, Old Norse yfir, Old High German ubar, German über, Gothic ufar "over, above"), from PIE *uper (see super-)

ابر کتف ضحاک جادو دو مار
برست و برآورد زایران دمار

It is interesting to mention Persian *abar-mard* (superman).


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## PersoLatin

abar, over, über, super, hyper... are congates, but that doesn't prove abar is the opposite andar.



ahvalj said:


> *_n̥dʰer- _(>_under, inferus_) is attested as Avestan _aδairi_ "under, below", Middle Persian _adar,_ later Middle Persian _ēr. _Also _*hača-adara- _> Middle Persian _hačadar, _Classical Persian _zēr._


This is the current understanding for the root of under and its Persian cognate.


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> That's proof that poetic licence has allowed the poet to use andar instead of zir, despite its inappropriateness (of andar)



Do you really think Ferdosi has used an inappropriate word in Shahnameh?!!

Another example *اندر آمدن*: فرود آمدن، پایین آمدن

Some poems from Shahnameh:

تن ژنده پیل اندر آمد بخاک
جهان گشت از این درد ما را خباک

چو بگذشت بر آفریدون دوشست
ز البرزکوه اندر آمد بدشت

ز اسب اندر آمد گو شیر نر
ز ره دامنش را بزد بر کمر

ز اسب اندر آمد گرفتش ببر
بپرسیدش از خسرو تاجور


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## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> Do you really think Ferdosi has used an inappropriate word in Shahnameh?!!


Ferdôsi was a poet.

Granted, here you could also interpret andar as in/on/down, *but not under*:

*تن ژنده پیل اندر آمد بخاک*
The actual meaning: The torn/old body the elephant fell *down* *on* the ground/*in* the dust
your proposition: The torn/old body the elephant fell *under *ground/dust/earth
*
چو بگذشت بر آفریدون دوشست
ز البرزکوه اندر آمد بدشت*
The actual meaning: When Fereydun was 120, he came *down *from the Alborz mountain on to the plateau/fields
Your proposition: When Fereydun (Iranian mythical king) was 120, he came *under *from the Alborz mountain on to the plateau/fields

*چو گفتار آن ترکش آمد به گوش
ز اسپ اندر افتاد و زو رفت هوش*
The actual meaning: When he heard the words of the Turk, he fell *off/down* the horse and fainted
Your proposition: When he heard the words of the Turk, he fell *under* the horse and fainted
*
ز اسب اندر آمد*
The actual meaning: Came *down* (off) the horse
Your proposition: Came *under* the horse

You tell me what Ferdôsi meant.


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin, I don't know what you mean, do you want to say "andar" has been used as adverb, not preposition in above poems? Does it change the fact what this word means?


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## PersoLatin

Hi Cyrus, I really don't know what else to say. 
Except, maybe rather than presenting me with a question you can tell me what's wrong with the translations I offered, or give your own translations, using *under*, and convince everyone.


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## ahvalj

Abar


PersoLatin said:


> Any insight on andarun?


My source explains it from _*antar-rauna-_ "inner side" > Middle Persian _andar-rōn_ > _andarōn_ > Classical Persian _andarūn_ > modern _ändärun_.


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## PersoLatin

Thanks ahvalj. 

It is interesting that there are two separate words i.e. _andar & rōn. _In current Persian, birun (_bi-rōn_) *بیرون *means 'outside' and is the opposite of darun (_dar-rōn_) *درون*. *bi* here means without/out and *dar* means in. In fact in English 'within' and 'without' have the same sense but without in the sense of 'out', is not used so much these days.

I wonder, as _rōn _means side, if it is linked to ru *رو* which means side, face, top, aspect, otherwise I can't think of a current Persian word for _rōn_?


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## ahvalj

PersoLatin said:


> Thanks ahvalj.
> 
> It is interesting that there are two separate words i.e. _andar & rōn. _In current Persian, birun (_bi-rōn_) *بیرون *means 'outside' and is the opposite of darun (_dar-rōn_) *درون*. *bi* here means without/out and *dar* means in. In fact in English 'within' and 'without' have the same sense but without in the sense of 'out', is not used so much these days.
> 
> I wonder, as _rōn _means side, if it is linked to ru *رو* which means side, face, top, aspect, otherwise I can't think of a current Persian word for _rōn_?


Unfortunately, the Iranic etymological dictionary I use has so far reached _k_ ,-(


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## PersoLatin

Hi Cyrus, I doubt it but these links might convince you that andar and andarun mean 'in', it sites poetry from many famous poets, including Ferdôsi, and I have not been selective.


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## CyrusSH

Of course, that is the main meaning of _andar_, I mentioned in the post #6.


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## scythian_horseman

Hi 
i noticed the similarity too some time ago 
German Uber is akin to Farsi Abar 
and German Unter is the persian Antar


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