# Echelon



## Alxmrphi

I am absolutely astonished by the lack of people who know or understand what "Echelon" is.
Before I go into this I am just going to say, to anyone who thinks that I am a conspiracy buff who thinks this is just a big conspiracy, I am not, this has been proven, the government has released reports and even some other countries PM's (like Australia's) have come out and spoken about it.

Ever since I heard about it, I have just been trying to make so many people know about it.

Let me give you an except from wikipedia



> *ECHELON* is a name used to describe a highly secretive world-wide signals intelligence and analysis network run by the UK/USA Community (otherwise described as the "Anglo-Saxon alliance") that has been reported by a number of sources including, in 2001, a committee of the European Parliment (EP report[1]). According to some sources ECHELON can capture radio and satellite communications, telephone calls, faxes, emails and other data streams nearly anywhere in the world and includes computer automated analysis and sorting of intercepts [2].


This is what I know about Echelon, there are countries united in a network of spying, these are Australia, New Zealand, Canada, US, and the UK.
The US's data-mining station is in NSA headquarters, and the UK's one is at Menwith Hill in England (many google searches will show you the bubble domes that are stationed at Menwith Hill) 

Here is a pic : http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/stopchildrape.net/images/_227599_menwith_hill_300.jpg

I think the name of this cable is called a "trunc" cable I'm not entirely sure, but they are phone lines, quite thick that can carry 20,000 phone connections and conversations simultaenously, and 4 of these pass right through Menwith Hill, a known Echelon site.

There was also a trial, charging two nude protesters for somehow getting into Menwith Hill, and in the trial, under oath, a lot of information (about these phone lines) was revealed and the judge threw the case out, on the basis of national security secrets.

For many years I have always heard the stories of, "If you say 'bomb' or 'assassinate' on the phone, it will flag it and be investigated, this is true, and it's scary for me to believe this.

What I hate the most, is the fact that nobody mentions this! The US government have never talked about this publicly. They talk about it in the news, US congress has its own comittee to watch NSA and the Echelon system, here is an article about the investigations:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/11/27/echelon_nsa_spooks_face_congress/

A few people have resigned and come forward after being ordered to spy on foriegn diplomats and have managed to bring out recordings of private conversations.

While the NSA will say that it cannot log into anyones personal phonecalls, it just data-mines everyones, and the ones that are flagged will be looked at, we also know this isn't true.
There was an exposure when Echelon snooped on a multi-million business deal and sold the secrets to provide a change of contract to a more "friendly" company, this caused outrage among businesses, and was one of the reasons Congress set up a special comittee to watch the NSA's actions.

It is public knowledge now that Margaret Thatcher abused Echelon to spy on her own cabinet ministers in the 80's... Here is an article about it:

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/docs/000219-echelon.htm



> On another occasion, in 1983, Mr. Frost says British intelligence officials invited their Canadian counterparts to come to London to eavesdrop on two British cabinet ministers whose political loyalty was doubted by Margaret Thatcher, then the British prime minister. Since it would have been illegal for British officials to do the surveillance themselves, they had the Canadians do the job using eavesdropping equipment in the Canadian embassy. After three weeks of snooping, the Canadians quietly turned over all their findings to the British, Mr. Frost says.


Which brings me to my next point, it is against the US constitution for the government to spy on its own people (as we all know by the uproar over the wire-tapping scandal some months back) .. *How do the US get around it? Well...*

We (The British) spy on the Americans and the Americans spy on us, and then they trade the information. This makes me feel physically sick and I remember when I saw Condalezza Rice stand outside the White House and say "We honour our constitution and we do not spy on our own citizens", it made me angry to the point of tears, that is why (as some of you might know) I despise the American Government, our parliment has fought to publish this information and started a European group on how to handle what America does.

Here is an except of our Parliment's report



> "Within Europe, all email, telephone and fax communications are routinely intercepted by the United States National Security Agency, transferring all target information from the European mainland ... to [The headquarter of NSA] ... a global surveillance system that stretches around the world to form a targeting system on all of the key Intelsat satellites used to convey most of the world's satellite phone calls, internet, email, faxes and telexes. ...unlike many of the electronic spy systems developed during the cold war, Echelon is designed for primarily non-military targets: governments, organizations and businesses in virtually every country... Five nations share the results with the US as the senior partner ... Britain, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are very much acting as subordinate information servicers."


If anyone else is as infuriated as me, PM me if you want more links on how to find out more about this disgusting invasion of privacy.
I wish I knew about this on "Jam Echelon Day" - October 21st, 2001
http://www.jamechelon.org/

 BBC Article about Echelon : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/654394.stm
 Australia admitting they're part of it : http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/2/2889/1.html
 Challenging New Zealand's PM over assurances about Echelon : http://www.context.co.nz:8080/stories/storyReader$909
______________________________________________________

My questions to you, are, how do you feel about your privacy, are you happy to let this happen, are you angry about this? Do you see it as right.
How many people honestly didn't know about this massive worldwide system to monitor everything we say to one another.

Without a shadow of a doubt, as the text in this message is posted, because I have said "Echelon" a few times, this post will be flagged by the Echelon system, and will be looked at, in your replies, because "Echelon" is in the title of your post, your posts will be flagged and possibly read as well.

How does that make you feel?


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## pedro0001

> "Within Europe, all email, telephone and fax communications are routinely intercepted by the United States National Security Agency,...



Until now, I only red your text, not yet the references. But it is very hard to be beleive that. Do you know, technically, the broad band you need for doing this?


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## Alxmrphi

pedro0001.... the reason why we're all so shocked, is because it is true, it has been since the 70's.. .except the NSA has just blocked out all congressional comitee's to monitor it... and with technology these days... it must be so much more than we can imagine.


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## pedro0001

I've read a pair of you're links. It sounds like science fiction. Have you watched the movie "Enemy of the State"? 

I still can beleive it. Maybe it is all the contrary. Maybe they have such system, only that no so powerful as they mean. Maybe they want you to think that. I'm a little skeptic.


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## beclija

Some people I know stuffed all kind of "suspicious" words in their email signatures, the idea being that when the electronic system has to many positives which to inspect more closely or to even check manually, it will blow up the system - thinking of it, it might work if lots of people do it...


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## GenJen54

*Mod Note:*

The CD Forum seems to have picked up a severe case of "chat-itis" as of late, and not just in this thread.

Alex has put forth a topic which is worth serious contemplation and discussion. For those who failed to read it, here it is:


			
				Alex_Murphy said:
			
		

> My questions to you, are, *how do you feel about your privacy, are you happy to let this happen, are you angry about this? Do you see it as right?*
> 
> *How many people honestly didn't know about this massive worldwide system to monitor everything we say to one another?*
> 
> Without a shadow of a doubt, as the text in this message is posted, because I have said "Echelon" a few times, this post will be flagged by the Echelon system, and will be looked at, in your replies, because "Echelon" is in the title of your post, your posts will be flagged and possibly read as well.
> 
> *How does that make you feel?*


 
Comedians, tv shows and movies that deal with the subject are not the topic of conversation here, nor is one's opinion on whether the idea "cool."

Members who wish to enter into a serious, respectful discussion are welcome to continue posting. 

Thank you.


Big Sister  (Remember, we're watching everything you post).


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## Sallyb36

sorry Gen, Really, I don't care who knows what I get up to!  i'm not mad about it, just wish they would be honest about it.  That's asking a bit much of politicians though isn't it?


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## Alxmrphi

Sallyb36 said:


> sorry Gen, Really, I don't care who knows what I get up to! i'm not mad about it, just wish they would be honest about it. That's asking a bit much of politicians though isn't it?





This is exactly what I said in my "what don't you like about your own country" and what I said was our societies lack of "concern" for invasion of privacy.
I'd like to check out that comedian guy though, I probably will like him.

What I have to stress is although it sounds like science fiction, it's fact.

And the note about Enemy of the State, the reason the NSA is in that film is the writer wanted to publicise the goings on about the NSA, I've read a ton on that, I'll see if I can find you some sources to check out.



beclija said:


> Some people I know stuffed all kind of "suspicious" words in their email signatures, the idea being that when the electronic system has to many positives which to inspect more closely or to even check manually, it will blow up the system - thinking of it, it might work if lots of people do it...


 
 That is what "Jam Echelon Day" was about.


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## pedro0001

Alex_Murphy said:


> I am absolutely astonished by the lack of people who know or understand what "Echelon" is.



You shouldn't be astonished any more. It just seems that the people don't have interest on it (I mean it by the lack of posts in this thread).


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## Alxmrphi

Exactly my point! I don't think people can let themselves comprehend the truth to be honest. Oh well, it's still going to be an uphill struggle for us pro-privacy protesters then.


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## loladamore

I had never heard or read the words "Echelon system" before today. I had both heard and read bits and bobs that cover the same sort of ground, but the name *Echelon* never came up.

I found a list of the trigger words *here*. If the list is reliable and the allegations correct, I am SO screwed. I believe I may have used the words *communications* and *computer* in several e-mails, as well as *domestic* and *WANK*, but I have never written *Uziel wojo Psyops* until today.

What do I think about all of this? I'll have to get back to you on that.


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## .   1

Alex_Murphy said:


> Exactly my point! I don't think people can let themselves comprehend the truth to be honest. Oh well, it's still going to be an uphill struggle for us pro-privacy protesters then.


I am quite happy to have my posts and mail and e-mail and stoned mutterings read and analysed by anybody with the time and energy to do so.
I have nothing to hide and I am suspicious of people who are so caught up in the whole privacy thing.
A secret is only a secret if less than two people know it.

What are pro-privacy protesters so concerned about?
If you don't do the crime you don't do the time but if The Government wants to verbal you then The Government will verbal you even if you stay mute.

It seems odd that a pro-privacy protester chooses to draw the crabs by making such a public statement about Echelon.

.,,


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## ElaineG

For those interested, the big news in the Italian papers today was the revelation (and arrest of 20 people) connected with a sort of private Echelon system, which was apparently used in connection with extortion, political corruption, as well as good old-fashioned espionage:  http://www.repubblica.it/2006/08/se...-5/ispettori-mastella/ispettori-mastella.html

Frankly, the only thing I know for sure is that government is massively inefficient.  If they _are_ spying on me, if they are doing it in as ineffective manner as they are bringing democracy to the Middle East, preventing terrorist attacks and reducing the deficit, then I don't have much to worry about.


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## pedro0001

ElaineG said:


> For those interested, the big news in the Italian papers today was the revelation (and arrest of 20 people) connected with a sort of private Echelon system, which was apparently used in connection with extortion, political corruption, as well as good old-fashioned espionage:  http://www.repubblica.it/2006/08/se...-5/ispettori-mastella/ispettori-mastella.html
> 
> Frankly, the only thing I know for sure is that government is massively inefficient.  If they _are_ spying on me, if they are doing it in as ineffective manner as they are bringing democracy to the Middle East, preventing terrorist attacks and reducing the deficit, then I don't have much to worry about.



ElaineG, the goverment is massively inefficient for the people but not for the politicians.


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## .   1

It is entirely possible that Echelon will catch pedophiles and other rock spiders.

.,,


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## maxiogee

. said:


> It is entirely possible that Echelon will catch pedophiles and other rock spiders.
> 
> .,,



I doubt that that is what they are looking for.


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## .   1

maxiogee said:


> I doubt that that is what they are looking for.


It does not matter if they are looking for rockspiders or not.  If a security officer finds any evidence of such behaviour there is a requirement to report such evidence or face the prospect of being charged as an accessory after the fact.
Quite a number of Australian Police Officers have been charged with such offences as a result of their computer hard drives being accessed by security agencies.

.,,


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## Alxmrphi

I don't understand the mentality of "I don't care"... it's the abuse it can cause, knowing everything you've done, for me it's like having a camera crew following me around all day, I don't care about Echelon flagging my posts because I have nothing to hide really, and i I want to be anonymous for a while, I have ways to do that as well, ways I nearly-fully trust

Protesting privacy doesn't mean you have something to hide.


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## .   1

Alex_Murphy said:


> I don't understand the mentality of "I don't care"... it's the abuse it can cause, knowing everything you've done, for me it's like having a camera crew following me around all day, I don't care about Echelon flagging my posts because I have nothing to hide really, and i I want to be anonymous for a while, I have ways to do that as well, ways I nearly-fully trust
> 
> Protesting privacy doesn't mean you have something to hide.


There are many people who have been busted by using tactics they considered to be nearly fully effective.

I suspect that there are very few tactics that you can devise that can not be followed by other people just as clever as you.

If Echelon actually exists I think it would be a good thing for you if you had absolutely nothing to hide on the net because you have effectively tweaked the nose of the dragon.

If I was part of this Echelon I would take your posts as a personal challenge.

Good luck

.,,


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## Alxmrphi

Read about "Onion routing" for a detailed explanation on how to appear anonymous, it's not "my system" by any stretch of the imagination, it's the worlds top programmers who work for the EFF (like the Electronic ACLU) and have come up with a worldwide system called "Tor".. and reading the protocol and how it works, it is pretty convincing.


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## Victoria32

Alex_Murphy said:


> I am absolutely astonished by the lack of people who know or understand what "Echelon" is.
> Before I go into this I am just going to say, to anyone who thinks that I am a conspiracy buff who thinks this is just a big conspiracy, I am not, this has been proven, the government has released reports and even some other countries PM's (like Australia's) have come out and spoken about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I know about Echelon, there are countries united in a network of spying, these are Australia, New Zealand, Canada, US, and the UK.
> The US's data-mining station is in NSA headquarters, and the UK's one is at Menwith Hill in England (many google searches will show you the bubble domes that are stationed at Menwith Hill)


The New Zealand base is at a place called Waihopai, and it has been known to those of us of the lefty-trouble-making persuasion for a wee while now...
Some people at our University even infiltrated it once...
My son and I had a game of trying to provoke Echelon at one point.. dangerous fun. 





Alex_Murphy said:


> We (The British) spy on the Americans and the Americans spy on us, and then they trade the information. This makes me feel physically sick and I remember when I saw Condalezza Rice stand outside the White House and say "We honour our constitution and we do not spy on our own citizens", it made me angry to the point of tears, that is why (as some of you might know) I despise the American Government, our parliment has fought to publish this information and started a European group on how to handle what America does.


Is there any way known to humanity to stop them?


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## badgrammar

I have never heard of this whole Echalon business.  Would I be surprised to find out it exists?  Not really.  And if it does exist, what are we going to do about it?  Probably not much.  




> What are pro-privacy protesters so concerned about?


Well, the problem is not _who_ they are looking for and _why_, the problem is the existence and further development of a network has an enormous potiential for abuse.  

If everything is already in place to monitor all your conversations and communications, and then there is a change in regime, laws, or government, you might fit the new profile of "the enemy" - because of your ethnicity, the company you keep and everything you do and say.

Maybe you, .,,. , don't feel this will ever be a problem in your country during your lifetime.  And I believe you when you say you have nothing to hide.  But since this is a worldwide deal here, consider that many people around the world have been, are being, and will be persecuted for their political views and affilitions, their writings, the company they keep and their ethnic group.  

So even if you have nothing to hide, personally, that does not mean others who have something to hide are necessarily criminals or up to no good.


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## Victoria32

. said:


> .............
> 
> If Echelon actually exists I think it would be a good thing for you....
> 
> .,,


There's no question it exists! The only question is what to do about it.


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## Alxmrphi

Victoria32 said:
			
		

> The New Zealand base is at a place called Waihopai, and it has been known to those of us of the lefty-trouble-making persuasion for a wee while now...
> Some people at our University even infiltrated it once...
> My son and I had a game of trying to provoke Echelon at one point.. dangerous fun.



I heard about that one, a guy called Nicky Hager managed to infiltrate it in the 80's and wrote a book about it:

It's called *Secret Power: * *New Zealand's Role in the International Spy Network*

The first two chapters are free to read here.

Another good resource on Echelon's processes, I found while searching for this book if anyone else is interested.

Victoria, fly over here and we can play with Menwith Hill

P.S - There really is no question is does exist, I'm really glad other people are aware of it here, it makes me feel better, as for it being a good thing! ha!


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## Victoria32

Alex_Murphy said:


> I heard about that one, a guy called Nicky Hager managed to infiltrate it in the 80's and wrote a book about it:
> 
> It's called *Secret Power: * *New Zealand's Role in the International Spy Network*
> 
> The first two chapters are free to read here.
> 
> Another good resource on Echelon's processes, I found while searching for this book if anyone else is interested.
> 
> Victoria, fly over here and we can play with Menwith Hill
> 
> P.S - There really is no question is does exist, I'm really glad other people are aware of it here, it makes me feel better, as for it being a good thing! ha!


Nicky Hager went to the same University that I did. He's an interesting guy! 
Wish I could fly over there, maybe next year...


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## LV4-26

When I first read Alex's initial post, the word _Echelon_ did ring a bell. But, obviously, I'd forgotten about it (thoughtless me).

No, I'm not happy with that. If any ordinary citizen wanted to know the contents of my mail and emails, I would send them away and say "it's none of your business". Plus, I would find it most discourteous and tactless. Even though I have nothing particular to hide.

If an institution does that, it goes further : it's an abuse of power. 

That such an institution find out what I write and/or say is *not* what I resent most. What I resent most is that *it feels entitled to do so* without asking me what I think of it. It shows a total lack of respect for my dignity as a human being. What are we for those people? Mere objects? 

Here is an excerpt from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights


> *Article 12.*
> No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.


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## maxiogee

LV4-26 said:


> Here is an excerpt from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
> 
> 
> 
> Article 12.
> No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Click to expand...


If all email is being scanned, is the scanning of mine 'arbitrary'?


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## loladamore

LV4-26 said:


> *Article 12.*
> 
> No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.


If only that were respected we would live in quite a different world. What do we do when the representatives of that law are the ones subjecting people to such interference and attacks? 



> So even if you have nothing to hide, personally, that does not mean others who have something to hide are necessarily criminals or up to no good.


Precisely. Now that Iraq has been "freed" (*ahem*) and is a "democracy" (hurrah?) I can see why many people might have *good reason* to hide (aspects of) their identity. That's just one example, but it highly probably that many of us hold views and/or indulge in actions that are considered immoral, subversive or illegal by others. 

Can I say *Echelon* again? Oh, and *Privacy Information counterintelligence Menwith Bugs Bunny ballistic media special forces*. Thanks. That should ge me on a few more lists.


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## Alxmrphi

Yes Tony, it will flag on words and automatically flag anything it doesn't understand as an encryption, which is forwarded to the NSA building in Forte Mead into their "device" designed to break any encrypted code. (Apart from PGP, and some RSA)

But that's why America has laws on encryption techniques and numbers, so it is possible for that program to be able to break it, or at least one of the "Most employed mathmaticians in one building in the world" can have an attempt at it.

Victoria, have you actually met Nicky Hager? wow!


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## LV4-26

maxiogee said:


> If all email is being scanned, is the scanning of mine 'arbitrary'?


I think _arbitrary_ here is to be taken in the same sense an arbitrary decision or the _abitrary rule of a dictator_, that is only based on the decider's will without any justification. Not in the sense of "_an arbitrary choice_".


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## maxiogee

LV4-26 said:


> I think _arbitrary_ here is to be taken …



Lawyers would argue rings around that one!


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## Alxmrphi

Oh, then also yes.


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## LV4-26

loladamore said:


> If only that were respected we would live in quite a different world. What do we do when the representatives of that law are the ones subjecting people to such interference and attacks?


Actually, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a text issued by the General Assembly of the United Nations.
I haven't yet looked up for Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the UK. (since those are among the states affiliated to Echelon according to Alex).
In the US constitution, there is nothing explicit that rules out interference to privacy. But there are some texts *undirectly* doing so, such as the XIXth amendment and several decisions of the Supreme Court (_Griswold vs Connecticut_).

The Council of Europe also forbids it (see paragraph C).


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## loladamore

There is (in theory) a general right to privacy in the UK. Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights was incorporated into UK law by the Human Rights Act in 1998. 



> Article 8 offers general protection for a person’s private and family life, home and correspondence from arbitrary interference by the State. This right affects a large number of areas of life ranging from surveillance to sexual identity - it is framed extremely broadly.


 So far so good.


> However, the right to respect for these aspects of privacy under Article 8 is qualified. This means that interferences by the State can be permissible, but such interferences must be justified and satisfy certain conditions.


*source*
So, just make sure you're not a "legimate objective".


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## Alxmrphi

Info taken from World-Information.org :

I'd like to echo this quote first:



> Without the investigative publications of James Bamford, Duncan Campbell, *Nicky Hager*, Jeffrey T. Richelson, William Burrows and others ECHELON would never have made its way to public notice and would have never led to alarming public opinion.



As for the other guys, I will have some reading to do on them.
And Hager's info on the UKUSA alliance, relating to this quote:


> (since those are among the states affiliated to Echelon according to Alex).



...



> In 1948 the former alliance of *USA*, *UK*, *Canada*, *Australia* an *New Zealand* established in World War II was formalized into the UKUSA Signals and Intelligence agreement to aim primarily together against the former USSR, although reades of the agreement say, _that it is definitely only signed by the United States and Britain_. (Nicky Hager, Secret Power, New Zealand's role in the internatinal spy network, Craig Potton, 1996, p61)
> 
> The UKUSA nations also agreed to standardize their terminology, code words, intercept-handling procedures, and indoctrination oaths, for efficiency as well as security. NATO nations and other nations as Japan and Korea later signed on as third parties. Among the first and second parties there is a general agreement not to restrict data, but with the third parties the sharing is much less generous.



As we can see there is a scare of primary and secondary nations, but really it's only the primary ones that get all the information.


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## LV4-26

maxiogee said:


> Lawyers would argue rings around that one!


Did you really think I had any intention of bringing the case to Court? 

Seriously, I only mentionned article 12 of the UDHR for the sake of illustration, to show that the question of individual privacy has long been important to thinkers and legislators in general, not only to the few of us here. Sorry if I disappointed some of you.


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## Alxmrphi

Sadly not to the people who have the final decision.


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## .   1

Alex_Murphy said:


> Yes Tony, it will flag on words and automatically flag anything it doesn't understand as an encryption, which is forwarded to the NSA building in Forte Mead into their "device" designed to break any encrypted code. (Apart from PGP, and some RSA)


If that is the case I am so deeply in the shit that I should be issued a straw to breath.

.,,


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## Victoria32

Alex_Murphy said:


> Victoria, have you actually met Nicky Hager? wow!


I have met his sister, and I was involved in an anti-war group where a kot of people knew him...


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