# Come si chiama questo libro?



## Wouter10

When I say:

Come si chiama questo libro?

Then this can mean two things, either 'How do they/people call this book?' or 'What is the name of this book?' And to me these really seem two different questions.

Could someone clear this up for me?

Gr,
Wouter


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## AlabamaBoy

Explain how the questions are different. What nuance of difference do you see? Are you suggesting a formal versus informal name?

I think you may be translating the words too literally into English and trying to put that meaning back in Italian. I believe almost any Italian would interpret the sentence as "What is the title of this book?"

"What is this book called?" where "called" is supposed to be a colloquial reference to the book is a mostly imagined English interpretation.


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## Wouter10

It could be for example that something has an 'official name' but that a certain group of people call it something else, example:

television - telly

Maybe I'm not explaining the difference well enough, but you certainly also must see the differences between the concept of a name of an object or the concept of people calling an object something. (I hope you see the same difference as I do, it is a bit difficult to precisely express my thoughts in English as it is not my first language.)


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## rrose17

Well I suppose you could always say "Qual è il nome di questo libro?" but I wouldn't force one language to follow the form of another, necessarily. Sometimes you just have to accept that common usage may or may not follow the same form from one language to another.


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## frugnaglio

Wouter10 said:


> When I say:
> 
> Come si chiama questo libro?
> 
> Then this can mean two things, either 'How do they/people call this book?' or 'What is the name of this book?' And to me these really seem two different questions.
> 
> Could someone clear this up for me?
> 
> Gr,
> Wouter



Well, books have a title, not a name. The question “come si chiama” is veeery colloquial (and actually wrong) if it's about the title. So maybe you want to find a better example for your question. In any case I don't understand your dilemma: the name of something IS, by definition, the name people call it.


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## Tegs

I think I understand your dilemma, which comes from you literally translating "come" as "how" as well as the less literal translation "what". 

But "come si chiama X" only ever translates as "what is X called?" and never "_how_ do you call X". In English, we just don't use the structure "how do you call X".


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## Pietruzzo

Wouter10 said:


> Come si chiama questo libro?
> 
> Then this can mean two things, either 'How do they/people call this book?' or 'What is the name of this book?' And to me these really seem two different questions.




I see your point. The personal pronoun "si" can be, depending on context and on the structure of the sentence riflessivo,impersonale, passivante,intransitivo pronominale. That's a big mess.

In the sentence "come si chiama quel libro?"(what's the name of that book?) we use the _intransitivo pronominale _verb "chiamarsi" (to be named) i.e.we use a false reflexive form. Indeed, the book doesn't call itself! It's not impersonal, since you can use all the persons of the verb(mi chiamo, ti chiami etc). The answer could be "La divina Commedia"

If I said "come si chiama la polizia" (how can one call the police?)I'd be using _si passivante_(si chiama=can be called, literally). This isn't impersonal either, because "la polizia" is the subject. You could also use the 3rd person plural; eg. "come si chiamano i Carabinieri?". The answer could be "devi fare il numero 113/112"

Now think of someone calling you at 4 am. You could say "Non si chiama a quest'ora!"(literally, one must not call at this time). This is an impersonal form and you can only use the 3rd personal singular.


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## frugnaglio

Pietruzzo said:


> Now think of someone calling you at 4 am. You could say "Non si chiama a quest'ora!"(literally, one must not call at this time). This is an impersonal form and *you can only use the 3rd personal singular*.



A small note: you can only use the 3rd person singular if there is no plural object. But with a plural object the verb agrees with it: Non si _chiamano_ le persone a quest'ora! Queste cose non si _fanno_!
Yes, it's more complicated than


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## frugnaglio

Pietruzzo said:


> This is not an impersonal form but a _si passivante_. "Le persone" is the subject of the sentence. I'm sure you know that the Italian impersonal form has not any subject.


You're right, I wrote that in a hurry. We can just delete these messages if you agree.


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## Wouter10

So if you would have a stand-alone sentence like:
Come si chiama quello ragazzo?
Then you wouldn't be able to distinguish between (si passivante) "How can that boy be called?" (with telephone) or (si reflessiva) "How/What does the boy call himself?"


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## Paulfromitaly

Wouter10 said:


> So if you would have a stand-alone sentence like:
> Come si chiama quello ragazzo?
> Then you wouldn't be able to distinguish between "How can that boy be called?" (with telephone) or "How is that boy called?"


There's no need to make any distinction: to 99,999% of Italian native speakers that sentence is absolutely clear and  means "What's his name?"


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## Wouter10

Paulfromitaly said:


> There's no need to make any distinction: to 99,999% of Italian native speakers that sentence is absolutely clear and it means "What's his name?"



But then you would have to make a different construction in order to say "How can that boy be called?" (by phone) in comparison with that of "Come si chiama la polizia?' (How can the police be called)


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## Paulfromitaly

Wouter10 said:


> But then you would have to make a different construction in order to say "How can that boy be called?" (by phone)


Come è possibile chiamare per telefono quel ragazzo?


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## Pietruzzo

I'd like to point out that my example "come si chiama la polizia?", though correct, is not the most natural way to say that. You're more likely to hear "qual è il numero della polizia?"


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## Wouter10

But do you all agree with me then that in some situations there could be confusion between si passivante and si riflessiva and in order to prevent this from happening it has become natural to pick a different sentence-structure.


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## Paulfromitaly

Wouter10 said:


> But do you all agree with me then that in some situations there could be confusion between si passivante and si riflessiva and in order to prevent this from happening it has become natural to pick a different sentence-structure.


No.
Your examples are not clear because you deliberately frame them in an non-idiomatic, ambiguous manner.
As native speakers have already pointed out, the meaning you want to convey can be clearly expressed using different words and constructions.


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## Wouter10

Okay . Maybe you think that I'm going a bit too far on this subject matter. But the thing is, I'm only trying to find out what the functions of the words are in the sentences. I really want to understand the structure of the language so that I myself can built up grammatically correct sentences. I've been studying Italian for a while now and most things are clear to me but the things that aren't are usually the things on which there is little to no explanation on the internet.


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## bicontinental

Going back to the book example… I’d probably just say, _what’s the title of this book_? Wouldn’t it be more natural to ask something like, _Qual e’ il titolo di questo libro_?

Bic.


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## london calling

Come s'intitola il libro?


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## bicontinental

london calling said:


> Come s'intitola il libro?



Ahh ok,..thanks LC! 
bic.


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## london calling

I wasn't correcting you, Bic.


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## bicontinental

london calling said:


> I wasn't correcting you, Bic.



Well, I certainly don't mind taking advice from someone who knows more than I do...
Also your version sounds more Italian than my suggestion!


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## Wouter10

bicontinental said:


> Going back to the book example… I’d probably just say, _what’s the title of this book_? Wouldn’t it be more natural to ask something like, _Qual e’ il titolo di questo libro_?
> 
> Bic.


Well, my problem wasn't really how people in Italy ask what the title of a book is. My question was more about the fact that the word "si" can have different functions in a sentence and I was wondering if someone could think of a situation/sentence (used or not used by italians, as long as it's grammatically correct) where you have an ambiguity.

But now after having read more about the si passivante and the si impersonale I think I have a better understanding and see now that there is no ambiguity. Before this, I just mis interpreted the word si impersonale. I thought it was some sort of special pronoun as we have in dutch (and as they also have in French "on").


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## london calling

Wouter10 said:


> Well, my problem wasn't really how people in Italy ask what the title of a book is. My question was more about the fact that the word "si" can have different functions in a sentence and I was wondering if someone could think of a situation/sentence (used or not used by italians, as long as it's grammatically correct) where you have an ambiguity.


Well, in that case you used the wrong forum. This is a translation forum - if your problem was the grammar in the Italian sentence you should have asked your question in Italian in the Solo italiano forum.


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## Wouter10

london calling said:


> Well, in that case you used the wrong forum. This is a translation forum - if your problem was the grammar in the Italian sentence you should have asked your question in Italian in the Solo italiano forum.



Oh I didn't know that. But my Italian isn't good enough yet to describe the problems I'm having in Italian grammar. Where then can I post question about the grammar in english?


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## MR1492

Wouter10 said:


> Oh I didn't know that. But my Italian isn't good enough yet to describe the problems I'm having in Italian grammar. Where then can I post question about the grammar in english?



We also have an English Only forum here, too.  They would be happy to assist.


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## Wouter10

MR1492 said:


> We also have an English Only forum here, too.  They would be happy to assist.


But do they know any Italian?


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## Pietruzzo

MR1492 said:


> We also have an English Only forum here, too.  They would be happy to assist.


I guess they don't talk about Italian grammar in the EO forum. The only solution is to start a thread with a specific sentence and then ask questions about your doubts. E sperare che i moderatori chiudano un occhio.


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## MR1492

Wouter10 said:


> Oh I didn't know that. But my Italian isn't good enough yet to describe the problems I'm having in Italian grammar. Where then can I post question about *the *grammar in english?





Wouter10 said:


> But do they know any Italian?



I'm sorry, Wouter10, I misunderstood what you were asking.  I thought the question was about a forum for English grammar.  

Phil


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## Wouter10

Pietruzzo said:


> I guess they don't talk about Italian grammar in the EO forum. The only solution is to start a thread with a specific sentence and then ask questions about your doubts. E sperare che i moderatori chiudano un occhio.



But is it true that this is a translation forum? If so, I'm maybe on the wrong forum.. (Since my questions mainly concern Italian 'grammar')


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## london calling

Wouter10 said:


> But is it true that this is a translation forum? If so, I'm maybe on the wrong forum.. (Since my questions mainly concern Italian 'grammar')


It's true that this is a translation forum. We don't discuss Italian  grammar unless it's in the context of a translation. And unfortunately you can't use English in the Solo italiano forum, which is where you ask questions about Italian grammar.

Edit. I found this thread here:

http://forum.wordreference.com/threads/i-was-given-i-am-given-si-passivante.1018305/


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