# Give me, tell me



## redsparks626

how do i write that in italian.  give *me* the book.  tell *me* the story.
what are the rules on writing like that?

thanks a lot,
R


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## Bella_Italia

hey,

In italian the word for "give me" is "dammi" so you would say "dammi il libro"
Tell me on the other hand is "dimmi" so you would say "dimmi il racconto", you would just substitute "il racconto" or "il libro" to express the same thing when referring to other objects and subjects. 

Note: These are both forms of what is known as the imperative, which is used to give orders, commands or requests. So like with any tense or form there are rules which have to be followed. The most important thing to note with this form is that the usual rule for the tu and Lei forms is reversed. E.g. when using parlare as an example - in the imperative the tu form would be "parla" and the Lei would be "parli" etc.


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## redsparks626

hmmm...let me see, give him the book would be "dammli il libro?

thank you for informing me..very good to know


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## cecil

redsparks626 said:
			
		

> hmmm...let me see, give him the book would be "dammli il libro?
> 
> thank you for informing me..very good to know


 
Red,

I'm not certain, but I think "give him the book" would be "Daglielo il libro." I'd love to see what a native Italian has to say about this.


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## JJchang

I thought daglielo already has two objects? How about "lo dai il libro"?
Another question, is saying "dimmi" or "dammi" impolite to total strangers?


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## winnie

cecil said:
			
		

> Red,
> 
> I'm not certain, but I think "give him the book" would be "Daglielo il libro." I'd love to see what a native Italian has to say about this.


 
i confirm cecil, you are right
a better translation woulb be: dagli il libro


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## winnie

JJchang said:
			
		

> I thought daglielo already has two objects? How about "lo dai il libro"?
> Another question, is saying "dimmi" or "dammi" impolite to total strangers?


 
no JJchang, daglielo = dai a lui = dagli

give him the book = dagli il libro

coming to your second question:

to say 'dimmi' or 'dammi' to a total stranger is very rude, the polite forms are:

mi dica (per favore)
mi dia (per favore)


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## cecil

winnie said:
			
		

> i confirm cecil, you are right
> a better translation woulb be: dagli il libro


 
winnie,

Quite so, but I only began to include the redundant "lo" after seeing it so often in plays written in Italian. 

cecil


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## JJchang

winnie said:
			
		

> to say 'dimmi' or 'dammi' to a total stranger is very rude, the polite forms are:


 Cheers Winnie, so I suppose I was right to be upset when someone at the information desk told me "dimmi! dimmi!"


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## skjc

It is ok to know that dàmmi is give me or dàgli is give to him/them but I suggest if you are unsure then look up direct and indirect object pronouns.

you give me the book is different from you give the book to me which I understand would be correct. However, both the direct and indirect pronouns are expressed in italian as mi so to say dàmmi il libro would be correct.

but you give him the book and you give the book to him are expressed differently as:

you give him the book = dàlo il libro, you give the book to him = dàgli il libro.

These are to an acquaintance/friend.

I am happy to be corrected   but this is my understanding.


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## JJchang

uh, I have to disagree with you though. Either way the direct object of those examples is the book (accusative), and the indirect object is him (dative). 
Otherwise it would be "you give him to the book". Lo dà al libro...


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## skjc

Thanks JJ but I do not understand fully what you are trying to explain - sorry. Is it possible to explain in another way?


thanks


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## JJchang

http://grammar.uoregon.edu/case/objcase.html
In English "give him the book" or "give the book to him" have the same meaning, and the direct/indirect objects in these two sentences are the same.
Take this example: "Give her to him" and "give him to her" have different meaning, because the direct/indirect objects are changed.

Hopefully this is clear enough....


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## lsp

skjc said:
			
		

> ...but you give him the book and you give the book to him are expressed differently as:
> 
> you give him the book = dàlo il libro, you give the book to him = dàgli il libro.


In English we can express it differently as you pointed out. It makes it _seem_ like we can choose which pronoun is direct and which is indirect. But it's misleading because they really don't change, and that is more evident in Italian. 

We give the book to him. We give him the book. The verb is give, and the object we give is direct. We give the book. The recipient of the object is indirect. We give it *to* him (even when, in English, we omit the "to").  

Is that any clearer, skjc?


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## Silvia

Daglielo il libro is incorrect, because of the repetition (lo + libro = it & the book). It may be used in spoken language, as a reinforcement (rafforzativo).


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## skjc

penso che sia chiaro leggerò piu (di piu?) e se ho una altra domanda chiederò.

grazie. 

appena quando pensa è facile....


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## enzodava

While structurally your two examples-- a) give him the book and b) give the book to him--look different, they mean the same thing. The book is the object _given. _"Him" will receive the book. 

In both examples, the book is the direct object, its pronoun (if used) is *lo. *

In example a) "him" is the indirect object. Its pronoun is *gli.  *In example b) "him" follows the preposition "to." Thus, "him" in this example is the object of the preposition; its pronoun, is *lui. *

*Please note: *we are talking structural differences. Meaning is affected only by shades; essence remains unchanged. 

Given the above facts, the Italian equivalent of a) is *Dagli il libro*. The Italian equivalent of b) will sound somewhat redundant to English ears, but it is through the redundancy that the above mentioned shade of meaning is clear: *Dagli il libro a lui*. The prepositional phrase in Italian is meant for specification: Give the book _to him, this guy. _

Both expresssions are correct. It is not possible , however, to designate "him" with the pronoun *lo *and not change the sense of the expression. Such a substitution would connote an instruction to give the _person_ away. If we still considered people property, this would be a conceivable proposition, but I believe we've progressed beyond such an idea.


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## cecil

>>Daglielo il libro is incorrect

Thanks, Silvia. I'll quote you some examples the next time I run across them.


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## redsparks626

what is the noi, voi and loro forms of this imperative tense?


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## JJchang

noi, voi - present tense
loro - ino, ano, ano

http://www.verbix.com/languages/italian.shtml


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## Silvia

enzodava said:
			
		

> Both expresssions are correct.


 Enzo, you got confused there... you explained that the suffix -lo stands for "it" as direct object, thus the repetition (incorrect by the way) is about the book and not about the receiver (him). That'd be a no no.


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## enzodava

> In both examples, the book is the direct object, its pronoun (if used) is *lo. *


 
Silvia, 

As appears above, I did specify that "book" in this context could only be substituted by the pronoun *lo.* By definition, *lo* can only signify masculine direct objects; *gli* can only ever signify masculine indirect objects. So, while my suggested repetition in "Dagli il libro a lui." might not ever be spoken among real Italians, the structural repitition, *gli* and *a lui*, can only refer to "him", the indirect object.

Just for my own further edification, please help me find the structural equivalent to "Give the book to him" that would actually be used (one which uses the prepositional phrase and _not_ the object pronoun) My guess, in lieu of my previous suggestion, would be "Dà il libro a lui." Yes? No?


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## Silvia

enzodava said:
			
		

> Given the above facts, the Italian equivalent of a) is Dagli il libro. The Italian equivalent of b) will sound somewhat redundant to English ears, but it is through the redundancy that the above mentioned shade of meaning is clear: Dagli il libro a lui. The prepositional phrase in Italian is meant for specification: Give the book to him, this guy.
> Both expresssions are correct.





			
				enzodava said:
			
		

> I did specify that "book" in this context could only be substituted by the pronoun *lo.* By definition, *lo* can only signify masculine direct objects; *gli* can only ever signify masculine indirect objects. So, while my suggested repetition in "Dagli il libro a lui." might not ever be spoken among real Italians, the structural repitition, *gli* and *a lui*, can only refer to "him", the indirect object.
> 
> Just for my own further edification, please help me find the structural equivalent to "Give the book to him" that would actually be used (one which uses the prepositional phrase and _not_ the object pronoun) My guess, in lieu of my previous suggestion, would be "Dà il libro a lui." Yes? No?


Dagli il libro a lui is like saying give him the book to him. Would you ever say anything like that? I really don't understand what you are talking about. It is very confusing to me. "Give the book to him" in Italian is not dagli il libro a lui, where do you see "him" twice?!


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## enzodava

Silvia,

My original suggestion, "Dagli il libro a lui," comes from a Spanish structure that I know exists and is used: "Dále el libro a él." Structurally, you're right; a literal translation to English doesn't make sense. But to a Spanish-speaker, such a sentence is simply understood as placing emphasis and clarification on exactly who the indirect object is. English-speaking learners must learn this structure idiomatically and accept the redundency of the indirect object pronoun and the prepositional phrase. 

I must have gotten my romance languages mixed up when I transferred this structure into Italian and assumed its validity. 

Back to last question of my previous post. 


> Just for my own further edification, please help me find the structural equivalent to "Give the book to him" that would actually be used (one which uses the prepositional phrase and _not_ the object pronoun) My guess, in lieu of my previous suggestion, would be "Dà il libro a lui." Yes? No?


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## Silvia

That guess is right, Enzo


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## cecil

But to a Spanish-speaker, such a sentence is simply understood as placing emphasis and clarification on exactly who the indirect object is. English-speaking learners must learn this structure idiomatically and accept the redundency of the indirect object pronoun and the prepositional phrase. 

You're not totally wrong. I read English plays (especially Miller, Williams, and O'Neill) in Italian, and phrases like "Daglielo il libro" are omnipresent.

cecil


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## lsp

Didn't post #15 also already tell us that it is used in the spoken language? So there's no harm in understanding how it might be used in "real life" and knowing the difference in what is strictly correct and what one might actually encounter.


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## enzodava

Cecil,

So basically, while there is a precedent for a repetition of the direct object (lo, and il libro), we haven't seen a precedent for a repetition of the indirect object (gli, a lui) ?

fascinating


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## cecil

enzodava said:
			
		

> Cecil,
> 
> So basically, while there is a precedent for a repetition of the direct object (lo, and il libro), we haven't seen a precedent for a repetition of the indirect object (gli, a lui) ?
> 
> fascinating


 
I don't recall seeing the indirect object repeated, but I'll keep an eye out for it.


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## cecil

lsp said:
			
		

> Didn't post #12 also already tell us that it is used in the spoken language?


 
Post 15 allows the redundancy for the sake of emphasis.


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