# ברדק (bardak) - etymology



## Nunty

*Moderator Note*: This thread has been split off from a thread about Russian borrowings in Hebrew. Nun-Translator's comment relates to a list of Hebrew words that are purportedly of Russian origin.

I don't know about the others, but a friend who speaks the language told me that _bardak_ is Turkish in origin and means brothel.


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## Chazzwozzer

Nun-Translator said:


> I don't know about the others, but a friend who speaks the language told me that _bardak_ is Turkish in origin and means brothel.


Hello Sister,

_Bardak _is indeed Turkish and means glass, not brothel. Word for the brothel is _genelev_.


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## Nunty

Thanks. I wonder how she or I got that confused... I don't suppose it's slang? In Hebrew it means a hopeless tangle -- of circumstance, things and/or incompetence


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## Macnas

Nun-Translator said:


> Thanks. I wonder how she or I got that confused... I don't suppose it's slang? In Hebrew it means a hopeless tangle -- of circumstance, things and/or incompetence



No, she got it right. Bardak does mean something like "glass" in Turkish, and it was loaned into Russian with that same meaning. However, in Russian its meaning later changed to that of "brothel" (I'm not sure how... That seems like a strange shift), and colloquially has adopted the meaning of "mess" or "disorder". This is what was Hebrew borrowed.


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## Chazzwozzer

Now it rings a bell!

In Azerbaijani, a Turkic language, a prostitute is called _bardak_. I assume _bardak _has been borrowed by Russians and changed in the meaning, then Hebrew got it from Russians, not to mention the fact that Azeris have a long history of relation with Russians.


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## Maroseika

Nun-Translator said:


> Thanks. I wonder how she or I got that confused... I don't suppose it's slang? In Hebrew it means a hopeless tangle -- of circumstance, things and/or incompetence


This confusion is lightly explicable.
Russian bardak has nothing to do with the Turkish one. In Russian this word has two senses:
1. Bardak - colloq. diminutive from Russian bordel' - brothel.
2. Bardak - a mess < bardak - soldier haversack < French barda < Arab bardah - saddle sack.
The sense of a mess is because in a sack all things use to be in a total mess.
The 2 homonyms (bardak) might influnce each to other because in the brothel it's also a mess, more or less...
Whether there is any connection between Arab bardah and Turkish bardak - it's another question, but has nothing to do with the modern Hebrew word, I guess.


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## albondiga

On the topic of *bardak*, this page has more about the other word for "mess" that was borrowed from Russian into Hebrew (I'm referring to *balagan*, of course)...  

Also, on the topic of the supposed shifts in meaning that happened with *bardak *on it's way from Russian into Hebrew, the same page also has some notes about the word brothel/bordel/bordello itself following a similar shift in meaning between other languages... 





> ...at least in Polish and in French "bordel" also means "mess". Compare: French "quel bordel!" = Polish "co za burdel!" = "what a mess!"


...although Maroseika's post implies that this shift didn't happen exactly this way with the word *bardak*, so I don't know if I should make anything of it...


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## Nunty

> ...at least in Polish and in French "bordel" also means "mess". Compare: French "quel bordel!" = Polish "co za burdel!" = "what a mess!"


Ah, of course. I'd forgotten about the French expression, since it's not one that is much used in my immediate environment.  

But still, Chazzwozzer, can you tell us how "glass" in Turkish became "prostitute" in Azerbaijani? 

There are still a few Turkish loan words used in modern Hebrew, left from the end of the Ottoman reign here, at which time Palestinian Jews (like my grandparents) were starting to use Hebrew as the language of daily discourse. That being the case, I wonder: could _bardak_ have been used in Turkish in this same sense? Were there perhaps Azerbaijani functionaries of the Ottoman Empire working in this region?


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## Chazzwozzer

Nun-Translator said:


> But still, Chazzwozzer, can you tell us how "glass" in Turkish became "prostitute" in Azerbaijani?


When I say glass/bardak, I mean the drinking container, not the other meaning, by the way.

Well, actually, I believe bardak, as used in Turkish and Azerbaijani, is a Turkic word, not of foreign origin. People in the villages still call pots bardak, which gives us a clue on its usage in the ancient times. Turkic peoples in Central Asia, before they immigrated to the other lands, might have aleady been using this word, thus there was no borrowing from Turkish, as this word wasn't coined by Turks of Turkey

Of course, over the years, this word could have acquired new meanings and as a result of living long years with other nationalities together under the Soviets, it's also very possible that some languages borrowed the word.

I know it hasn't been an exact answer to your question, but I'm totally clueless on that here.



Nun-Translator said:


> That being the case, I wonder: could _bardak_ have been used in Turkish in this same sense?


I don't think so. Ottomans had never had brotherls until 1858, which was never legal until that time either, as they never needed. Well, there's still a possibility that they called those places bardak, as a codename.




Nun-Translator said:


> Were there perhaps Azerbaijani functionaries of the Ottoman Empire working in this region?


That's a good question. I'll just mail and ask it to my history teacher. I can also ask the etymology of bardak, as he knows a lot about word origins.


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## Nunty

Chazzwozzer said:


> [...] That's a good question. I'll just mail and ask it to my history teacher. I can also ask the etymology of bardak, as he knows a lot about word origins.


Wow, talk about help "above and beyond...". Thanks.


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## Chazzwozzer

Long time, I know. But still... 

The word _*bardak *_is indeed Turkic. _*Bart*_, in 11th century, meant a water pot.

But, neither my teacher nor any of his friends could come up with an answer to your question about Azeri workers, unfortunately.


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## Nunty

Chazzwozzer, you are a marvel! Thank you, and please thank your teacher and his friends, too. Bravo, bravo, bravissimo!


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## scriptum

Chazzwozzer said:


> The word _*bardak *_is indeed Turkic. _*Bart*_, in 11th century, meant a water pot.


But is there any etymological tie between the Turkish bardak and the Russian one? I doubt it.
The etymology of the Russian word seems to me pretty clear. It's the French "bordel" russified (-el replaced by the Russian suffix -ak; no difference in Russian between "a" and "o" in an unaccented syllable).
The relationship between "brothel" and "mess" is obvious, too: brothel is a disorderly house.


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## HUMBERT0

I know the connection, if any, is distant. However it’s interesting…
One meaning of Barda besides a fence (_Unknown origin of the word with this meaning_) in Spanish, and a harness to protect horses, with this meaning it comes to us from Italian, which in turn comes from classical Arabic. 

*barda1.*
(Del it. _barda,_ y este del ár. clás. _barda‘ah_).
*1. *f. Arnés o armadura de vaqueta o hierro con que se guarnecía el cuerpo de los caballos para su protección en la guerra y en los torneos.

And, someone mention brothel, well I found Bordello. Etymology: Italian, from Old French _bordel,_ from _borde_ hut, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English _bord_ board.


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## Etcetera

Maroseika said:


> Russian bardak has nothing to do with the Turkish one. In Russian this word has two senses:
> 1. Bardak - colloq. diminutive from Russian bordel' - brothel.


The only time when I came across the use of 'bardak' in this sense was when I was reading one of Erich Maria Remark's novels (in translation, of course), and it really surprised me. In modern Russian this word is used only for 'disorder'.


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## Spectre scolaire

_My contribution to this thread comes in two parts._

This is *part I*.

I have some comments, if I may intrude into this partly _terra incognita_... I don’t know any Hebrew (only the alphabet, but a fair amount about Jewish socio-linguistics!), and my Russian is fragmentary and passive; my father was a Russian. I hope that the moderator will excuse me for any perceived obscenities in the following; I might appear somewhat _blunt_.

Of course, _Chazzwozzer_ (and his teacher!) are entirely right (cf. #11) in postulating *bardak* as a Turkish word. I think he is also right in assuming that:




			
				Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> _bardak _has been borrowed by Russians and changed in the meaning, then Hebrew got it from Russians


I support this theory, and I’ll try to elaborate on it.

As for the loanword status of Russian бардак, there is a very comprehensive book (in Russian) about Turkish (and Tatar) loanwords. I’ll try to find the title, but for the time being I am 8000 km away from my library... The word must be listed in this book – with its two meanings! Here is another source: http://www.russki-mat.net/e/B.htm




> Brothel – figuratively means disorder, mess, chaos. Historically the word describes large earthenware with big openings. The figurative meaning is more commonly used: “Министры приходат и уходят, а бардак остается” - “Ministers come and go - the mess remains”.


These meanings are basically corroborated by _Maroseika_:




			
				Maroseika said:
			
		

> Russian bardak has nothing to do with the Turkish one.[?!] In Russian this word has two senses:





			
				Maroseika said:
			
		

> 1. Bardak - colloq. diminutive from Russian bordel' - brothel.
> 2. Bardak - a mess < bardak - soldier haversack < French barda < Arab bardah - saddle sack.


-but I don’t quite follow her in her fanciful etymologies, nor when she claims that:




			
				Maroseika said:
			
		

> The sense of a mess is because in a sack all things use to be in a total mess.


The following claim is in contradiction with both _Maroseika_ and the above quoted dictionary entry:




			
				Etcetera said:
			
		

> In modern Russian this word is used only for 'disorder'.


There seems, however, to be no doubt that:




			
				albondiga said:
			
		

> *bardak* [...] was borrowed from Russian into Hebrew


-and I am also convinced that _albondiga_ is right in making an association with French _bordel_!

As _Chazzwozzer_ had already pointed out, Turk. bardak also has another meaning. In #9 he writes “pot”, but “jug, pitcher” may be a better translation, cf. Turkish toprak testi, “earthenware jug”. This meaning is obsolete in today’s Turkish, but one might still find it in some dialects – _Derleme S__özlüğü_, the 23 vol. Turkish dialect dictionary may have recorded it. An indirect record is Modern Greek μπαρντάκι (or dialectally [bardač] by palatalization of the _k_) which means exclusively a “jug”, and never a “glass”. This word is also obsolete in today’s Standard Modern Greek, but it was obviously borrowed at a time when the meaning “jug” was common in Turkish. This also seems to be the Old Turkish meaning of _bart_ (which received a diminutive suffix –(E)k). There is no reason to believe that the semantic change from “jug” to “glass” operated in Greek because 1) in Old Turkish _bart_ was already used as a drinking implement, and 2) Greek already had a word for “glass”, and this word ποτήρι [potíri] is not a neologism, but enjoys a continuity in Greek since Classical times. 



			
				scriptum said:
			
		

> Is there any etymological tie between the Turkish bardak and the Russian one? I doubt it.


Of course, you’re right, there isn’t. But what about the semantics? 



			
				scriptum said:
			
		

> The etymology of the Russian word seems to me pretty clear. It's the French "bordel" russified (-el replaced by the Russian suffix -ak; no difference in Russian between "a" and "o" in an unaccented syllable).


 


			
				scriptum said:
			
		

> The relationship between "brothel" and "mess" is obvious, too: brothel is a disorderly house.


Nobody would disagree with the latter statement, but with all respect, the passage in red is a rather far-fetched theory which can hardly be sustained from a linguistic point of view.

So, what happened? Now, the discussion has focused on _two_ words and their semantic transitions, *a*) _bordel_, and *b*) _bardak_.

_End of part __I._


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## Spectre scolaire

_My contribution to this thread comes in two parts._

This is *part II*.

So, what happened? Now, the discussion has focused on _two_ words and their semantic transitions, *a*) _bordel_, and *b*) _bardak_.

The semantic change of *a*) did not operate in Russian, but in French! French was such an influential language in pre-revolutionary Russia that whole passages in famous Russian novels were written in French and translated into Russian as footnotes. My grandfather learned French as his first foreign language in school (which he spoke in addition to his mother tongue German and his father tongue Russian). In spite of Pushkin etc., there was still something second classish about Russian during the 20th century – and a French _gouvernante_, massive invasion of French loanwords, not to mention a German wife did little to revamp its status. If the change in question had come along in Russian, would then French have borrowed the new meaning from Russian?!... In French they said “Que-ce que c’est que ce _bordel_!” long before it appeared as slang in Russian. 

So, the crucial question appears to be _how and where_ the semantic transition from “glass” to “brothel” operated. I don’t think I can solve this question, but a new path seems to impose itself.

I suggest we look at the word *b*) _bardak_ as it notoriously changed. Turkish çay bardağı, “tea glass” – an _izafet construction_ containing the qualifier _çay_ and the qualified word _bardak_ (furnished with a compulsory possessive pronoun) - suddenly changes the material of the _bardak_ from _earthenware_ to _thin glass_. Whoever has been to Greece or Turkey (or wherever in the region) has seen these glasses – as much in the shape of a female body as a guitar is. But a guitar doesn’t have a hole – at least not without strings attached... Instead of pouring tea into the glass, some drops of sun-flower oil (or the like) makes it the perfect _pars pro toto_ when the fiancée does’nt turn up. _Pars pro toto_ is a figure of speech in which the part of something is used to signify the whole. The implied four-letter word is, according to “Urban Dictionary” (on the web), a “Derogatory term for a woman.” I’ll come back to it.



			
				Nun-Translator said:
			
		

> [C]an you tell us how "glass" in Turkish became "prostitute" in Azerbaijani?


I don’t think this happened in _Azeri_. Russian would be a much more likely candidate, but any non-Turkic language could aspire to this dubious honour. The semantic transition of French “bordel” from “maison de prostitution” to “grand désordre” seems more likely to have happened in the original language than a semantic transition of, say, French _verre_ from “glass” to “*prostitute”. _Bordel_ is already a negative word – it can’t get worse. _Verre,_ however, is _the_ French word for “glass”. How would it sound if a young son was scolded by his mother who said: “Don’t drink from the bottle, find yourself a ... prostitute!” 

To sustain the hypothesis of foreign words being more likely to undergo this kind of semantic changes, Modern Greek γκεργκέφι would appear to be an instructive parallel. The word comes from Turkish gergef, “embroidery frame”, and does not mean anything else in Turkish. In Modern Greek, however, γκεργκέφι being a loanword, it has – in addition to its Turkish original meaning – also developed a slang acceptation which is a clear reminder of what the word for “glass” went through – or rather what went through the glass... The English correspondence to Modern Greek γκεργκέφι starts with a _c_ and rhymes with _blunt_. You don’t need much imagination to understand the semantic transition.

Incidentally, Turk. gergef being of Persian origin, cf. kârgâh, has an indirect relation to ... _bordel_. The first element is Pers. kâr, “work”, and the second _-gâh_ is a Pers. verbal suffix meaning “place of”. The word _kârhane_ in Turk. – literally:“work-house” - is an obsolete word for “a factory, a workshop”.

How did the latter become obsolete in Turkish?

With its modern Turkish phonetic and semantic development, _kârhane_ ended up as _kerhane_, “brothel”! 




			
				Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> [The w]ord for the brothel is _genelev_.


Today, indeed! But _kerhane_ was the common Turkish word for _brothel_ before the euphemism (and neologism) “genelev” came along. I have seen no indications that:




			
				Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> they [the Ottomans] called those places bardak, as a codename.


I doubt whether it is possible to substantiate such an idea. It is interesting, but rather fanciful.

In Azeri _kerhane_ has kept its old meaning of “factory”, a fact which has resulted in perennial jokes among Turks who travel to Azerbaidjan to visit a factory – but are told that this is a ... brothel. 

Considering the influx of Russian Jews in Israel it is likely that they brought along the word бардак.

Words travel, but it is not always obvious _how_ they travel or _why_ they assume a new semantic garb.

_End of part II._


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## scriptum

Hi Spectre,
“Wow” is my reaction to your post. Knowing neither Turkish nor Persian, I am afraid I cannot be more specific... I only would like to remark that word formation based on replacement of the foreign suffix by a native one is not so uncommon in Russian (cf. chapeau – шапка). So the transformation of bordel into bardak is at least probable.


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## badgrammar

Wow, also is my reaction.  Spectre you are more than scholaire!

As I was looking at this thread I though of the association of "glass" and "bardak", although I don't know if it's valid.  In red light districts in countries like the Netherlands, women in "bordels" can be seen through the glass fornt of their "boutique".  But I don't know if "bardak" and "glass" have the same value as in English "glass" and "glass/window".  To add to that, is it possible that amalgams are made so that the meanings of glass/jug/prosititute's window front" would all tie up into "bardak", with  the meaning of a "bordel(fr)" (a mess/a bordello) adding to the mix?  

Language is so interesting, and you realize at times that one person's coinging of a word, based on his/her knowledge of one or more languages, may create a new word understood by all through the linguistic melting pot!  Indeed it is not scholars who create words - they study them!  
It is your "average Joe" on the street who comes up with the terms, who propogates them, and leaves them to the likes of linguistically-minded people to try to decipher and guess their origins!

PS reading this I realize it doesn't make much sense, but I know what I mean ...  Off to bed, tomorrow I will revise!


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## maxl

Wow indeed. Just one small point. There was no need to wait for the latest influx of Russians to Israel for bardak to enter Hebrew, since the word is used also in Yiddish, and thus from the very beginning of emigration of Eastern European Jews to the Holy Land in the 19th c. the word migrated with them. I doubt though whether the 18th c. Hassidim who settled in  Jerusalem, Tiberias and Safed brought it with them.


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## nty

okay,first thing,you need an open mind,the word bardak (ברדק) means a mess,like a messy room is  "kheder mevordak" (חדר מבורדק),this is the most common this for this word.


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