# a tallest boy



## HSS

"Ted is the tallest boy in the class. So is Chris."

Now this, I think, is so normal an utterance. You use 'the' before 'tallest' even though there are two of such boys in the class. This makes me wonder if there is any conceivable circumstance at all where you would say 'a tallest boy'?


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## heypresto

I can't conceive of a circumstance in which we'd say 'a tallest boy'.


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## MrMuselk

No. A tallest boy cannot be used. “A” never goes in front of an -est superlative.


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## Language Hound

HSS said:


> "Ted is the tallest boy in the class. So is Chris."
> *Ted and Chris are the tallest boys in the class.*
> Now this, I think, is so normal an utterance....
> *I'm sorry, but there is nothing at all normal about it.  It is just wrong.*


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## suzi br

I agree with Language Hound’s marking above.

This is another alternative:
Ted is *one of the* tallest boys in the class.


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## MrMuselk

So there you go, HSS. A superlative is normally used with *one *object, for example Ted. If Ted is the tallest, then Chris can’t also be the tallest. He could be the *second tallest*. Also, remember:


MrMuselk said:


> “A” never goes in front of an -est superlative.


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## suzi br

MrMuselk said:


> So there you go, HSS. A superlative is normally used with *one *object, for example Ted. If Ted is the tallest, then Chris can’t also be the tallest. He could be the *second tallest*. Also, remember:



I am not sure that clarifies it precisely..
We can use tallest with more than one, as my sentences demonstrate.  You can be a part of a group in which everyone is a superlative.  He is one of the tallest.


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## MrMuselk

Sorry if it was vague. To clarify: Try not to repeat two people with the same superlative. You can use it with groups, though.





> "Ted is the tallest boy in the class. So is Chris."
> *Ted and Chris are the tallest boys in the class.*


Here’s some examples:
Josh is the biggest person in class. Tom is also the biggest.
It would be:
Josh and Tom are the biggest people in class.


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## suzi br

Yes - that’s clearer.  Or more clear? 
 Possibly the clearest in the world.


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## MrMuselk

Nice one


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## HSS

Mmmm, very interesting. Now that you are saying it, I realize it stands to reason that you can't add that another member qualifies as the superlative goes to tell you because with 'the' you have already restricted the subset of the qualified member(s).


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## entangledbank

Ted has the greatest height* in the class. So has Chris. But here they're both, say, 1.83 m, so the second sentence doesn't add a new member to the set {1.83 m} defined by 'the' + superlative.

* 'Has the greatest height' sounds a bit unnatural, so substitute any other: got the best score, has the most shoes.


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## MrMuselk

Thanks for this new example. None of us had thought of that. I think it falls into the group superlative of “They are the tallest people in class”.


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## HSS

entangledbank said:


> Ted has the greatest height* in the class. So has Chris. But here they're both, say, 1.83 m, so the second sentence doesn't add a new member to the set {1.83 m} defined by 'the' + superlative.
> 
> * 'Has the greatest height' sounds a bit unnatural, so substitute any other: got the best score, has the most shoes.


I'm sorry, entangledbank, to me the speaker sounds like saying the first only touches upon Ted, and the second introduces a new member. I'm puzzled.


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## MrMuselk

He means that both are the same height, so *they* are the tallest people.


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## HSS

Having said that, I now think I see it. You're right, entangledbank, Ted 'has' the greatest height, which is a subset, and Chris 'has' the greatest height, which is the selfsame subset. That greatest height is nothing new to the dialog. (Or, the best score, as you say)

Cross-posted.


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## JungKim

Interesting thread!
Let me double-check if I got this right.
Context: Ted and Chris have exactly the same height, which is greater than those of the others in the class.
_Ted is the tallest boy in the class._  
_Chris is the tallest boy in the class._ 
_Ted has the greatest height in the class._ 
_Chris has the greatest height in the class._ 
Am I right about these markings?


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## suzi br

JungKim said:


> Interesting thread!
> Let me double-check if I got this right.
> Context: Ted and Chris have exactly the same height, which is greater than those of the others in the class.
> _Ted is the tallest boy in the class._
> _Chris is the tallest boy in the class._
> _Ted has the greatest height in the class._
> _Chris has the greatest height in the class._
> Am I right about these markings?



No. Sorry to say you are all wrong! 

You should say this because you’ve made the point that two of them are the same height: 

Chris is one of the tallest boys in the class. 

We do not say “greatest height” about people’s height. We use the word tall.
People have started saying “height” in here to describe data, as we might say “let’s compare the children’s height” but in the sentences about individuals we say tall. 

However, just to make it even more random: If you ask someone how tall they are, say to fill in a form about them, you can say: “What’s your height?” Then the answer is always: “l’m 5 foot 7 inches tall”. Never: “I’m 5’7” heigh”. 

English, eh!


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## MrMuselk

I’m not sure. Your two examples still suggest that only one of them is the tallest. I would say that:
_Ted is one of the tallest people in class.
Chris is one of the tallest people in class.

Cross-posted_


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## JungKim

suzi br said:


> No. Sorry to say you are all wrong!


I have presented four sentences along with markings.
(1) _Ted is the tallest boy in the class._ 
(2)_ Chris is the tallest boy in the class._ 
(3)_ Ted has the greatest height in the class._
(4) _Chris has the greatest height in the class._ 

Now, I'm not sure what exactly you mean I'm all wrong.
Do you mean that my markings are all wrong?
Or that the four sentences are all wrong?


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## MrMuselk

I think all four are wrong. The first two, of course are already wrong, but the 3rd and 4th sentences are wrong, because they still suggest the same meaning as the first two examples.


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## suzi br

JungKim said:


> I have presented four sentences along with markings.
> (1) _Ted is the tallest boy in the class._
> (2)_ Chris is the tallest boy in the class._
> (3)_ Ted has the greatest height in the class._
> (4) _Chris has the greatest height in the class._
> 
> Now, I'm not sure what exactly you mean I'm all wrong.
> Do you mean that my markings are all wrong?
> Or that the four sentences are all wrong?


 All of them have something wrong with them.  The rest of my answer illustrated what I meant in each case.


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## JungKim

suzi br said:


> All of them have something wrong with them.  The rest of my answer illustrated what I meant in each case.


Then I'm not "all wrong" because I have marked the first two wrong.
And (3) and (4) are similar to ETB's example in post #12, unless you think his example is wrong.
Although ETB admits that his example is "a bit unnatural", he seems to have presented the example as a correct one.


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## MrMuselk

In a conversation, you would have to use:
Ted and Chris are the tallest people (boys suggest that there are girls taller than them, but we are affirming that Ted and Chris are the tallest) in class.
When presenting information, use:
Ted and Chris have the most height out of everyone in class.


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## suzi br

Ok then, Jung Kim - You go about using height in ways we’ve both told you are not natural/ idiomatic.
ETB is *NOT* saying it’s “correct”!

I’ve done a good job, and taken time to think about,  explaining the mysteries of how we talk about this topic for you.

If you choose to ignore that you are just “shooting the messenger”.

Bye.


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## MrMuselk

JungKim said:


> Then I'm not "all wrong" because I have marked the first two wrong.
> And (3) and (4) are similar to ETB's example in post #12, unless you think his example is wrong.
> Although ETB admits that his example is "a bit unnatural", he seems to have presented the example as a correct one.


ETB did say that his post could be replaced by something better, and affirmed that his wasn’t very good.


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## Thomas Tompion

HSS said:


> "Ted is the tallest boy in the class. So is Chris."
> 
> Now this, I think, is so normal an utterance. You use 'the' before 'tallest' even though there are two of such boys in the class. This makes me wonder if there is any conceivable circumstance at all where you would say 'a tallest boy'?


As people have said, _Ted is the tallest boy in the class. So is Chris_ is not a normal utterance at all, because superlatives normally imply uniqueness.  If Ted is the tallest boy, he must be taller than Chris.

However, we can extend the group.  We can say that Ted and Chris are the tallest boys in the class, when we wish to say that they are each taller than any of the other boys in the class.  Being one of the tallest boys in the class does not, however, make you a tallest boy, because "tallest boy" implies uniqueness, and this contradicts the indefinite article's implication that you are not unique.

Of course, the fact that Ted and Cris are the tallest boys in the class does not mean that they have the same height, just that if you arranged the boys in ascending order of height, they would be the last two in the line.

In other words, there are conventions about how we handle this concept of uniqueness linguistically, and you need to observe them or be misunderstood, or create the sort of cognitive breakdown observable at moments in this thread.

There are some superlatives, however, which are quite frequently used with the indefinite article, common superlatives which have developed conventions of their own: _Do you have a best friend?_ is a normal question, because _best friend _is an expression in use in certain societies to depict a particular relationship.  Equally, _Shall we have a last try?_ is a normal question, because of a particular linguistic convention that has developed, where _a last try_ means another try which may well be the last.


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## MrMuselk

Thanks.  That really sums up this 40 post long thread.


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## Cagey

MrMuselk said:


> When presenting information, use:
> _Ted and Chris *have the most height* out of everyone in class._


I suggest that you not use this.  It is a very odd way to express the idea.


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## MrMuselk

I am just giving examples of sentences that are correct, to enforce the difference from the wrong ones. I just gave an example to show what could be correct and what couldn’t.


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## Edinburgher

Because "having height" is not idiomatic, perhaps we should abandon it for something that is, and that illustrates the same point.
For example, there may have been a class test, and the highest score was 83 out of a possible 100.  Suppose both Ted and Chris got 83.

We might then say "Ted and Chris got the highest score", but we'd probably still not say "Ted got the highest score", even though he did, because it carries the suggestion of exclusivity, and leads to confusion when you then add "Chris got the highest score".  The reaction might be "Huh?  I thought you said Ted did."


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## suzi br

JungKim said:


> What did I do to make you so frustrated?
> You've said I'm *all wrong* when I'm only wrong about half, i.e., (3) and (4), so I had to point that out.
> No apologies necessary.



Because you WERE NOT quite right -  and then ignoring my explantion about why your ideas were not quite right.  I only said "wrong" because it is the answer to your question at #17.  I'll say "not quite right"  if you prefer that terminology to outright "wrong".  Right or wrong is often a matter of context rather than plain black/white definition lots of us usually err on tentaive wording (which is what ETB was doing in #12)  Hopefully now you can see that.

I am bemused by #26 - it's not helpful and I don't agree with that notion, Cagey agrees with me in #32.  ETB's comment at #12 means "it's wrong" but says it more tentatively, that's all.  

As we explore ideas in these threads we often find that the "rules" emerge and we clarify them for you as we go along.  That is what is happening here, and what I have had another go at explaining to you.  

You might consider apologising, since you mention it!


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## JungKim

Thomas Tompion said:


> Being one of the tallest boys in the class does not, however, make you a tallest boy, because of our convention that *when you use the indefinite article, you are back with uniqueness*, and this contradicts the indefinite article's implication that you are not unique.


I don't understand the emboldened statement, i.e., the content of "our convention". Could you please tell me what you mean by that?


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## Edinburgher

suzi br said:


> You might consider apologising, since you mention it!


I think JK has a point, suzi.  In #17, he specifically asked whether his markings were correct (two red crosses, two green ticks).  Your response #18 said they were all wrong, but I think you must have meant the four examples were all wrong and that accordingly there should have been four red crosses. He, of course, took your comment to mean that his ticks should have been crosses and vice versa, and failed to pick up that your subsequent explanation was inconsistent with his conclusion.


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## Thomas Tompion

JungKim said:


> I don't understand the emboldened statement, i.e., the content of "our convention". Could you please tell me what you mean by that?


Hello JungKim,

I worried about that bit, and wondered how best to make the point clearly.

*"when you use the indefinite article, you are back with uniqueness*_, and this contradicts the indefinite article's implication that you are not unique."_

I'll give myself more room:

Imagine the boys all in line in ascending order of height.  We can say "the tallest boy" (last in the line) 'the two tallest boys" (the last two in the line) and "one of the tallest boys" (a boy towards the end of the line), or even, in general "the tallest boys" (the group of boys at the end of the line), but NOT "*a* tallest boy" because there's a clash between the uniqueness of being the tallest (ie. of the whole group) and the indefinite article's implication that there are other tallest boys, something which is not possible.

I agree that this is a matter of convention rather than of watertight logic, but then so is a lot of language, particularly when concerned with comparatives and superlatives, perhaps.

Insofar as I could guess what people might be trying to mean by saying "a tallest boy", I'd guess they were trying to put over the idea normally expressed by "one of the tallest boys".

Some people use the comparative here and say "one of the taller boys", which I think takes the boy less far down the line than "one of the tallest boys".

That form can sound rather arch and I'm not clear there is a difference in meaning.  In the British Corpus there are 941 instances of "one of the best" and only 50 of "one of the better", a balance reflected in the ngrams.


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## suzi br

Edinburgher said:


> I think JK has a point, suzi.  In #17, he specifically asked whether his markings were correct (two red crosses, two green ticks).  Your response #18 said they were all wrong, but I think you must have meant the four examples were all wrong and that accordingly there should have been four red crosses. He, of course, took your comment to mean that his ticks should have been crosses and vice versa, and failed to pick up that your subsequent explanation was inconsistent with his conclusion.



Yes he failed to pay attention to the detailed answer. He was all wrong because all the sentences were wrong. Nuances on the point about his chosen method of annotating his sentences was of no concern to me because it added an unnecessary complication, as we can see. 
It’s a red herring to the actual learning point which I elaborated in detail.


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## JungKim

Thomas Tompion said:


> *"when you use the indefinite article, you are back with uniqueness*_, and this contradicts the indefinite article's implication that you are not unique."_


I appreciate the detailed answer. So what you mean is not that the *in*definite article expresses uniqueness, but that the the *in*definite article is incompatible with uniqueness. Am I right?


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## elroy

1) Tom and Chris are the tallest boys in the class.
2) Tom is one of the tallest boys in the class.

For me, these are correct sentences but 1) doesn’t say that Tom and Chris have the same height, and 2) doesn’t say that no one in the class is taller than Tom.  That the two boys have the same height and that it is the greatest height found in the class are crucial here.  I would say

Tom and Chris *are tied for* tallest boy in the class.


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## JungKim

elroy said:


> Tom and Chris *are tied for* tallest boy in the class.


Thanks. Did you drop the definite article before 'tallest boy' because it denotes a title?


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## elroy

Probably, yes.


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## Cagey

Thanks to several people, the topic question has been answered. 
The thread is closed. 

Cagey, 
moderator


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