# If I were you VS If I had been you



## Mack&Mack

Hello helpers, I have a question.

Any difference between these two?

1. If I were you, I would have felt the same way.

2. If I had been you, I would have felt the same way.

Thank you all a lot in advance... =)


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## matt_hilton

If I were you, I would feel the same way
(you`re talkin' about an action taking place in the immediate present)


If I had been you, I would have felt the same way
(that's past)

Hope it helps


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## Lucretia

I'm afraid you are wrong, Matt. It's a so-called mixed conditional.
If you are talking about the past, Mack's #1 is correct.
If you are talking about the present, Matt's #1 is correct.


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## matt_hilton

well thank you so much lucretia 
i think i gotta read more on that issue


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## okey-dokey

Mack&Mack said:


> Hello helpers, I have a question.
> 
> Any difference between these two?
> 
> 1. If I were you, I would have felt the same way.


 I think most native speakers would be a bit confused by this. However, the context (which you do not provide) would help the listener out. Without the context, the problem lies in the constrasting timeframes of the two clauses. Having heard _were_ in the condition the listener senses a present timeframe. This contrasts with _would have felt_ which suggests a past timeframe. So-called mixed conditionals are often possible but if used out of context they can confuse rather than inform.


> 2. If I had been you, I would have felt the same way.


 This is about the past.


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## Mack&Mack

Thank you all for your kind answers.

Okey-Dokey, I have a question. In what situation, do you use the first one ( If I were you I would have felt the same way)?

One of my native-English speakers was disheartened the other day. When I met him this morning and comforted him, he said he said "I'm okay. I shouldn't have felt that way." So, I wanted to say I would have done or felt the same as he did.

First, I thought the second one (If I had been you, I would have felt the same way) is right because what happened is(was?)the past. But somehow I got the feeling that I might not necessarily have to use the phrase of "If I had been you". It was HIM at that time when something that made him disheartened was happening. At the same time it is still HIM now in the middle of my speaking now.

I hope I am not talking gibberish. =)

Would you answer my question? Thank you again.


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## okey-dokey

Mack&Mack said:


> Thank you all for your kind answers.
> 
> Okey-Dokey, I have a question. In what situation, do you use the first one ( If I were you I would have felt the same way)?
> 
> One of my native-English speakers was disheartened the other day. When I met him this morning and comforted him, he said he said "I'm okay. I shouldn't have felt that way." So, I wanted to say I would have done or felt the same as he did.
> 
> First, I thought the second one (If I had been you, I would have felt the same way) is right because what happened is(was?)the past. But somehow I got the feeling that I might not necessarily have to use the phrase of "If I had been you" _- this is a good thought_. It was HIM at that time when something that made him disheartened was happening. At the same time it is still HIM now in the middle of my speaking now.
> 
> I hope I am not talking gibberish. =)
> 
> Would you answer my question? Thank you again.


 
I think you'd put your arm around his shoulder and say, _"Well, you know Jack (or whatever he's called) I'd have felt the same." _The reason is because he said, "_I shouldn't have felt that way_." If he had said, "_I shouldn't feel this way_," then you would use, "Well, if it's any consolation, _I would feel the same._"

Notice the use of the deictics _this_ and _that_ - _that_ for the past and _this_ for the present.


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## panjandrum

Could someone explain more clearly what's wrong with matt's answer at #2?


> If I were you, I would feel the same way
> (You`re talking about an action taking place in the immediate present.)
> 
> If I had been you, I would have felt the same way
> (That's past.)


It sounds OK to me.
The first example is subjunctive (I think).


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## Trina

panjandrum said:


> Could someone explain more clearly what's wrong with matt's answer at #2?
> It sounds OK to me.
> The first example is subjunctive (I think).



Yes, it is the subjunctive and is similar to:


> If I were a rich man,
> Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
> All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
> If I were a wealthy man.
> I wouldn't have to work hard.


"If I were a rich man, I'd biddy biddy bum" 
(which without the _deedles, bubbas & dums is a complete sentence_) Not exactly sure what the verb _biddy biddy bum_ means but you could substitute another infinitive here. (I'd = I would)

"If I were a wealthy man, I wouldn't have to work hard."
is a perfect example of the subjunctive mood.

Matt's 2nd sentence, I believe is a perfect example of the pluperfect subjunctive.


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## Mack&Mack

Re: PCT (Patents, Copyright, Trademark) policy and Open Source - Certainly *if I were him I would have* been offended that because you didn't share my opinion that you decided to call my opinion self centered after the effort he went into explaining his position. I can't defend him calling you a *...*
www.mail-archive.com/license-discuss@opensource.org/msg07007.html - 15k 


Bookslut | An Interview with Marjane Satrapi Yes, *if I were him, I would have* hated me. Well, why is that? Do you think that constant comparison is more of a problem for Art Speigelman, or for other graphic novelists like yourself who might be a little bored of the comparison? *...*
www.bookslut.com/features/2004_10_003261.php - 24k - 


PC World - Hacker's Arrest Prompts Protest Against Adobe - "*If I were him, I would have* teleconferenced in instead of coming to the U.S.". However, Dyson does not expect a backlash against the federal agents who attend Def Con every year. "The Feds have been coming undercover to Def Con for *...*
pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,55864,00.asp - 43k - 


Shame On The Line Judges [Archive] - Badminton Central Discussion *...* - *If I were him, I would have* killed the line judges, or I would just say "I don't want to play anymore. How to play when it's not fair?" Remember the World Grand Prix Finals last year? He led Peter Gade in the 4th game (he won 2 games *...*
www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5718.html - 11k - 


An Open Letter To The Hasbro Board Of Directors (rough Draft) - (in all honesty, *if I were him I would have* paid it out of my own pocket, written it up as an expense in doing business, and gone home feeling satisfied that I did a good job that day.) Still not believing that he really represented *...*
legalminds.lp.findlaw.com/list/cyberia-l/msg18557.html - 20k - 


Student Comments About The Watsons, 2/10/00 - I think Byron did deserve the punishment, because that will show him not to do the things he is not supposed to do. *If I were him I would have* asked my parents first, and if they said no I would have waitrd until I was older. *...*
https://www.planetbookclub.com/kids/archive/watsons2.00/scomments10.html - 4k - 


John "jbob" Bobowicz's Blog: Would you like a side of giblets to *...* - *If I were him I would have* been looking around for the hidden camera because this couldn't possible happen in real life. It got me thinking. Maybe we're onto a new tradition at Java One. Every year we set up a Sun exec by sending a *...*
weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/149 - 17k - 


TechIMO Forums - A good deed... I don't know about you, but I don't think the system administrator was quite responsible but totally blowing off the idea that there could be vulnerabilities........*if I* *were him, I would have* asked for specifics and investigated *...*
www.techimo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-61125.html - 15k - 


Sideways - Viewer's Voices - *If I were him, I would have* had trouble watching that, even knowing it's for a movie. IP: Logged. Billy Hoyle Friend of 3BC, posted 12-07-2004 06:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Billy Hoyle · Edit/Delete Message · Reply w/Quote *...*
www.3blackchicks.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000218.html - 28k - 

The Poker Chronicles: HH - *If I were him I would have* folded on the flop. My preflop standards (and a lot of people's) ensure I either have a big pair or an ace there (or in this case, both) which means he is definitely drawing nearly dead and possibly completely *...*
www.thepokerchronicles.com/archives/000783.html - 18k - 

Thank you all so much. The sentences above are what I have found on google by typing in "if I were you, I would have *"

Are all the sentences okay? If so, why? Or should they be changed into 

"if I had been you, I would have been/hated/killed..." etc.

Sorry for the trouble, but would someone explain this to me? =(


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## RussUS

Both are correct, as are all your Google hits. (Except for the "fine point" that they all should be "If I were he." This usage is virtually never used correctly any more.)

The explanation centers around the fact that we are forgetting how to use and form the subjunctive mood in English. 

In the "condition contrary to fact" type sentence such as are your examples (If something _had been the case_, something else _would have happened_.) Your first sentence, "If I were you, I would have felt the same way." uses a person shift to form the subjunctive: If I were", rather than "If I was" which would be used in the indicative mood. 

If the sentence were present tense, you would use tense shift and say: "If I were you, I would feel the same way."

"If I had been you, I would have felt the same way" uses a more complex tense shift, i.e., a compound past, or past perfect, which, when paired if "if" and the conditional tense, produces the same, (correct) result. 

*Bottom line, both are correct*. The difficulty is we barely know how to form the subjunctive any more in English, resulting in different usages whiich are understood by nearly all speakers and not considered "wrong" by grammarians.


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## elroy

I think "if I were you, I would have" is ok because "if I were you" necessarily means "if I had been you."

*If I were you* right now (to look at it literally) I would have also been you at the time that whatever happened, happened; and *I would have acted* a certain way.


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## Lucretia

_*If I had been/done* _is used when it's irreversible:
_If I had been wiser_ (at that moment), _I wouldn't have agreed._
I was stupid then, but I am not always stupid.

_If she were wiser, she wouldn't have married a drug-addict._
It's a mixed conditional. She is always unwise, she is still the same. 
_*If I were you*_ is imaginary, you needn't take it as irreversible.


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## RussUS

Lucretia said:


> _*If I had been/done* _is used when it's irreversible:
> _If I had been wiser_ (at that moment), _I wouldn't have agreed._
> I was stupid then, but I am not always stupid.
> 
> _If she were wiser, she wouldn't have married a drug-addict._
> It's a mixed conditional. She is always unwise, she is still the same.
> _*If I were you*_ is imaginary, you needn't take it as irreversible.


 
Interesting. While I am familiar with this distinction in other languages, I wasn't aware of one in English. Would you happen to have a citation so I could learn more?


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## Lucretia

OK, Russus.
There are 2 mixed types of senteces of unreal codition. In the first of these the condition refers to the past and the consequence refers to the present or future.
_If you had taken your medicine yesterday, you would be well now._

In the second type the condition refers to no particular time and the consequence to the past.
_Beatrice would not have helped me if she disliked me._
The consequence is in the past and what's done can't be undone.
Does it help,  RussUS?


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## Brioche

Mack&Mack said:


> Hello helpers, I have a question.
> 
> Any difference between these two?
> 
> 1. If I were you, I would have felt the same way.
> 
> 2. If I had been you, I would have felt the same way.
> 
> Thank you all a lot in advance... =)


 
The first sentence is not in accord with the traditional grammar of British English.

If I were ... can only refer to an imaginary/non-real situation which is being imagined at the present time.

If I were you [now, as we speak], I would feel the same way.
_But I am not you, and I do not feel the same way._

If I had been you [at some time in the past], I would have felt the same way.
_But I was not you, and I did not feel the same way_.

All those examples of "*If I were him, I would have*" are wrong.

I'm not really happy with the "mixed conditionals".
_If she were wiser, she wouldn't marry drug addict after drug addict._
_If she had been wiser, she wouldn't have married a drug addict._


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## Mack&Mack

Thank you all again. I really appreciate your answers. =)

Brioche, I have a question. 

I was taught the mixed conditional is one of the conditionals frequently used. You mean you are not happy with it when you have to use it?

For instance,

If I had studied English as a child, I would be able to speak English fluently.

Does this sound okay? 

Come to think of it, the sentence right above is different in pattern from the sentences you were not happy with. I mean in the sentence I've just made up, the subordinate clause has the past perfect with would + verb in the main clause.

On the other hand I see that in the sentences above -the ones from Google- the subordinate clause has the past tense with would + have + p.p. in the main clause.

Is it what you were saying? If I got you wrong, forgive me.


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## Lucretia

> The first sentence is not in accord with the traditional grammar of British English.
> 
> If I were ... can only refer to an imaginary/non-real situation which is being imagined at the present time.
> 
> If I were you [now, as we speak], I would feel the same way.
> _But I am not you, and I do not feel the same way._
> 
> If I had been you [at some time in the past], I would have felt the same way.
> _But I was not you, and I did not feel the same way_.


Please look at this interpretation.

Jack is not very tall, to put it mildly. He's not getting on well with one of his classmates, X., who does whatever he can to bother him. Once Jack comes to a party and hears X announce: "Now, specially for our distinguished guest Jack, a song - he switches on a recorder very loud for everybody to hear
_Short people got no reason_
_Short people got no reason_
_Short people got no reason to live_
_They got little hands, little eyes...._

Jack tells about it to Bob (who is tall) and Bob says:
_If I were you, I would have felt the same way_.
*If I were you *refers to no particular moment, it's synonymous to *If I were as short as you*. You can't say _If I had been as short as you_, can you?


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## Trina

Lucretia said:


> [...]
> *If I were you *refers to no particular moment, it's synonymous to *If I were as short as you*. You can't say _If I had been as short as you_, can you?



If I had been as short as you, when you were ten, I would have felt the same way too.
If I had been as short as you were when you were 10, I would have felt the same way too.


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## panjandrum

Lucretia said:


> Please look at this interpretation.
> 
> Jack is not very tall, to put it mildly. He's not getting on well with one of his classmates, X., who does whatever he can to bother him. Once Jack comes to a party and hears X announce: "Now, specially for our distinguished guest Jack, a song - he switches on a recorder very loud for everybody to hear
> _Short people got no reason_
> _Short people got no reason_
> _Short people got no reason to live_
> _They got little hands, little eyes...._
> 
> Jack tells about it to Bob (who is tall) and Bob says:
> _If I were you, I would have felt the same way_.
> *If I were you *refers to no particular moment, it's synonymous to *If I were as short as you*. You can't say _If I had been as short as you_, can you?


No you can't, but you can say (and I would say):
*If I'd been you, I would have felt the same way.*
I would not say "If I were you ..." in this context.


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## elroy

Google returns 25,000 results for "If I were you I would have" and a meager 82 for "If I had been you I would have." Granted, some of the results are for "have" as a main verb, but the difference is still significant enough to suggest that "If I were you I would have" is not wrong. 

Not that I needed Google to confirm this. As I said in my first post, I don't have a problem with the structure. Perhaps this is a British-American difference?


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## Porteño

Brioche hit the nail on the head. The sentence is just plain wrong, regardless of how many quotes may be downloaded from Google, etc. It's not a mixed conditional either, it's simply a bad example odf somebosy not knowing how to write a subjunctive.


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## Trina

If I were you, I would ... see a doctor / buy that plane etc
If I were the President of the United States, I would declare November 1st a national holiday.
This is the subjunctive.



> [...]*Set phrases* The subjunctive is used in a number of fixed phrases, relics from an older form of the language where it was much more common. Common examples are:
> _as it were_
> _if I were you _[...]


source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive_mood




> *The Subjunctive Mood*[...] The subjunctive mood of the verb *to be* is *be* in the present tense and *were* in the past tense, regardless of what the subject is.
> 
> Incorrect: If I was you, I would run.
> Correct: If I were you, I would run.
> (The verb follows *if* and expresses a non-factual condition.)[...]


source: http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000031.htm



> Here are some examples of the subjunctive being used in English:
> 
> 
> The doctor recommends that he take the pills with food.
> Subjunctive conjugation: he take
> 
> The law requires that you be 18 years old to vote.
> Subjunctive conjugation: you be
> 
> If I were a rich man, I wouldn't have to work hard.
> Subjunctive conjugation: I were


source:http://www.studyspanish.com/lessons/subj1.htm


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## Lucretia

Right, Elroy,
The ratio 25,000 vs 82 is something to go by, isn't it? I think if one made a research, quite a few renowned writers would find themselves among those 





> not knowing how to write a subjunctive.


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## Porteño

A quick run through Yahoo gives a somewhat less overwhelming result for 'If I were you, I would have', namely 7,910 vs 91. However, a quick scan of the first 100 or so shows that a considerable proportion of these use 'have' as the main verb and carry a future context and are therefore correct. Of the remainder I was unable to find any quotation of note from any renowned writers, but rather blogs and/or lyrics. In any case you can not put a lot of faith in what appears on the Internet, it is hardly a Royal Academy of language. 

I still stand by my opinion that what is grammatically correct can only be 'If I had been you, I would have' - an unreal past conditional. and that 'If I were you, I would have + past participle' is quite wrong.


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## Mack&Mack

Thank you all so much for your answers. I really appreciate it.

I will stop using the pattern of "If I were you I would've felt the same way." =)  

Thank you all again.


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## RussUS

I invite those of you who opined that "If I were you..." is flatly wrong to read the citations provided by Trina.


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## akrakrakr1214

Newer discussion added to previous thread on the same topic. 
Cagey, moderator 

1:If I were you I didn't tell her.

2:If I had been you I wouldn't have told her

Is the sentence 1 correct?
If its correct, what's the difference between the sentences?


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## cubaMania

If I were you I wouldn't tell her.  You are talking about something that has not yet happened.
If I had been you I wouldn't have told her.  You are talking about something that happened in the past.

Is sentence 1 co*rr*ect?


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## akrakrakr1214

cubaMania said:


> If I were you I wouldn't tell her.  You are talking about something that has not yet happened.
> If I had been you I wouldn't have told her.  You are talking about something that happened in the past.
> 
> Is sentence 1 co*rr*ect?


Thank you for the explanations and correction!!


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## se16teddy

cubaMania said:


> If I had been you I wouldn't have told her.


I don't think this is right. As far as I am aware, _If I were you _is an immutable idiom meaning _If I were in your shoes. 
_
It is commonly used with *present or future* reference, or to make a recommendation for an event that *may* occur, followed by _I would _(sometimes _I should_)_... 
If I were you, I'd steer well clear of him. 
_
You can also use it with *past* reference, or to make a recommendation for an event that *cannot* occur, followed by _I would/should have_...
_If I were you I would have kept my mouth shut._


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## london calling

akrakrakr1214 said:


> 1:If I were you I didn't tell her. *If I were you I wouldn't tell her.  This is a second conditional sentence.*
> 
> 2:If I had been you I wouldn't have told her *This is a third conditional sentence.*
> 
> Is the sentence 1 collect *correct* ?


I have to disagree with you, se16teddy, about the second sentence. I have no problem with it at all. It's a perfectly normal third conditional sentence.


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## se16teddy

There is a previous thread: If I were you VS If I had been you


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## london calling

Thanks, but I still disagree.


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## wandle

'If I were you' is an impossible supposition, but we treat it as an idiom meaning 'if I were in your place'.
That is a customary usage with reference to the present or the future.

However, to say 'if I had been you' involves not just one impossible supposition (I changed from being me to being you) but also a second one (then I changed back from being you to being me). I find this double supposition is too much for the idiom to bear.

If I want to refer to the past, I say, 'If it had been me, I would not have told her'.


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## london calling

wandle said:


> If I want to refer to the past, I say, 'If it had been me, I would not have told her'.


I probably would too, but I still have absolutely no problem with 'If I had been you....' to mean 'If I had been in your shoes...'.


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## akrakrakr1214

Thank you all!!
Can someone explain the sentence below

_If he was in class yesterday, he learned it._

I found the sentence in Wikipedia.
says, this sentence is a simple past indicative, referring to past time.
I don't really get when to use this grammar..
Why is it not subjunctive?
like →If he was in class yesterday, he could have learned it.
Can someone give me some sentences using this grammar ??


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## london calling

Can you give us the link to Wiki? That's a very odd sentence.


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## akrakrakr1214

london calling said:


> Can you give us the link to Wiki? That's a very odd sentence.


English subjunctive - Wikipedia


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## se16teddy

akrakrakr1214 said:


> Why is it not subjunctive?


Because the speaker thinks it is entirely possible that he was in class yesterday. The speaker doesn't know whether he was in class yesterday or not.

In contrast, I am definitely not you, and I am definitely not in the same position as you are, so I say _If I were you_ (2nd or 3rd conditional).


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## wandle

akrakrakr1214 said:


> _If he was in class yesterday, he learned it._


In form, this sentence is a correct past open conditional (both verbs in the simple past indicative).

However it is not logically valid, because the conclusion does not in fact follow from the premise (just being in class does not mean he learned anything at all: he may have been paying no attention).

A correct and logical example of a past open conditional could be:

'If he was on that train, then he passed through Reading Station at 14:45.'


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## london calling

akrakrakr1214 said:


> English subjunctive - Wikipedia


'If he was in class yesterday, he learned it' is a very odd (illogical) example of an open past conditional, although it is correct.


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## akrakrakr1214

I think I understand the condition and I'm trying to create a sentence.
Nothing comes to mind....


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## e2efour

wandle said:


> In form, this sentence [_If he was in class yesterday, he learned it_] is a correct past open conditional.
> 
> However it is not logically valid, because the conclusion does not in fact follow from the premise (just being in class does not mean he learned anything at all: he may have been paying no attention).


What has logic to do with it? Illogical statements are not ungrammatical because they are illogical.
To say _If he was in class yesterday, he must have learned it_" seems an unremarkable thing to say.

As has been pointed out above, you cannot use a _were _subjunctive to refer to the past.


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## wandle

e2efour said:


> Illogical statements are not ungrammatical because they are illogical.


That is what I have indicated above. Here we are in perfect agreement.


e2efour said:


> _If he was in class yesterday, he must have learned it_"


This is a different sentence from the example discussed earlier:


akrakrakr1214 said:


> If he was in class yesterday, he learned it.


This, as mentioned above, is (a) grammatically correct but (b) logically inconsequent.
Those are two distinct points. Each one is relevant to understanding the sentence.


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## akrakrakr1214

Here's the sentence that came to mind!!

If he had a lot of time, he walked to work.

It's like talking about his custom.
sound strange?


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## wandle

akrakrakr1214 said:


> If he had a lot of time, he walked to work.


That is a correct conditional sentence.


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## Thomas Tompion

akrakrakr1214 said:


> 1:If I were you I didn't tell her.
> 
> 2:If I had been you I wouldn't have told her
> 
> Is the sentence 1 collect?
> If its collect, what's the difference between the sentences?


I'm afraid 1. is quite wrong, Akrakrakr. _If I were you_ cannot refer to a past case, I think.

2. is absolutely fine, on the other hand, a normal type III conditional sentence.

I don't know why some people say that _if I had been you_ is incorrect. Renaat Declerck and Susan Reed in their book, _Conditionals: A Comprehensive Empirical Analysis_, give many examples of its use.


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## wandle

Thomas Tompion said:


> I don't know why some people say that _if I had been you_ is incorrect.


Who says that, I wonder?


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## Thomas Tompion

akrakrakr1214 said:


> Here's the sentence that came to mind!!
> 
> If he had a lot of time, he walked to work.
> 
> It's like talking about his custom.
> sound strange?


No, it's not strange at all.

It's a perfectly correct sentence, but it's not a conditional -_ if _means_ whenever_ in cases like this.


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## Andygc

wandle said:


> Who says that, I wonder?


Post #4?


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## Loob

As regards "if I had been you", I'm with teddy - I wouldn't use it myself.

But it's clear both from this thread and the one linked in post 6 that many people are perfectly happy with it.


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> As regards "if I had been you", I'm with teddy - I wouldn't use it myself.
> 
> But it's clear both from this thread and the one linked in post 6 that many people are perfectly happy with it.


Renaat Declerck and Susan Reed cite an amusing example of its use in a third conditional referring to an event which hasn't yet happened.

Suppose A has planned a tour of Italy which hasn't yet taken place and B is criticising the itinerary.  They propose that B might say  _If I'd been you, I wouldn't have gone to Milan before Rome_, and declare it 100% idiomatic.  I'm inclined to agree with them, of course.  If you are worried about the apparent reference of a type III conditional to the future, you can say to yourself that _I wouldn't have gone_ means _I wouldn't have chosen to go_.

I couldn't say _If I were you, I wouldn't have gone to Milan before Rome_ in such a case.


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## Thomas Tompion

I see that I get support from some eminent writers:

_"I think, if I had been you, I would not have allowed their presence to make any difference to me."_ Trollope, Anthony, Can you forgive her? Chapter 62.

_"I should not have told her. No, if I had been you," said Mr Jaggers_; Dickens, Charles, Great Expectations, Chapter 51.

_Pray do not talk of that odious man. I do think it is the hardest thing in the world that your estate should be entailed away from your own children; and I am sure if I had been you, I should have tried long ago to do something or other about it._ Pride and Prejudice, Austen, Jane, Chapter 13.

Perhaps you've changed all that and the heart is no longer on the left-hand side.

The ngrams show a decline rather than total extinction.


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## wandle

Andygc said:


> Post #4?


It does not seem to. I have not noticed anyone saying that 'if I had been you' is incorrect.

My view is that a sentence such as 'If I had been you, I would not have told her' is grammatically correct, but stretches the idiom too far for comfort. Therefore I say 'if it had been me' instead. That is my preference in regard to the semantic point, that is, the message of the sentence.


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## wandle

akrakrakr1214 said:


> If he had a lot of time, he walked to work.





Thomas Tompion said:


> It's a perfectly correct sentence, but it's not a conditional -_ if _means_ whenever_ in cases like this.


Here again, I think we need to distinguish between (a) the grammar of the sentence, that is, its structure and compliance with the rules of the language; (b) its semantic meaning, that is, the message it conveys; and (c) its logic (as distinct from the grammar), that is, the implications and entailments of the semantic message.

Certainly, the semantic message of *akrakrakr1214's* example is 'Whenever he had a lot of time, he used to walk to work'.
That statement is equivalent to the example sentence because it follows logically from it.

However, that is separate from the grammatical question, namely, what construction is being used in this sentence.
The structure 'if A, then B' is clearly a conditional structure. What other construction can this be, but a conditional sentence?

Suppose we alter a tense in the example sentence: 'If he *has* a lot of time, he walked to work'.
This is now grammatically incorrect (besides being logically impossible). Why? Because it breaks the rules of conditional sentences.

Thus the example sentence not only has the structure of a conditional sentence, but it also obeys the rules of conditionals.
That seems to me enough to establish that the sentence is a conditional in its form (i.e. grammar), while being equivalent to a positive statement in its semantic meaning.


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## Andygc

wandle said:


> It does not seem to. I have not noticed anyone saying that 'if I had been you' is incorrect.


It was post #4 before the threads were merged. Try post #31


se16teddy said:


> I don't think this is right.


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## I am a Chinese boy

Lucretia said:


> I'm afraid you are wrong, Matt. It's a so-called mixed conditional.
> If you are talking about the past, Mack's #1 is correct.
> If you are talking about the present, Matt's #1 is correct.



Yes, I agree with you, It is Mixed Conditionals.


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## Thomas Tompion

I am a Chinese boy said:


> Yes, I agree with you, It is Mixed Conditionals.


Hello, I am a Chinese boy, and welcome to the forum.

I'm interested in your view.  Which mixed conditional form do they follow, do you think?


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## Thomas Tompion

matt_hilton said:


> If I were you, I would feel the same way
> (you`re talkin' about an action taking place in the immediate present)
> 
> 
> If I had been you, I would have felt the same way
> (that's past)





panjandrum said:


> Could someone explain more clearly what's wrong with matt's answer at #2?


Tricky business, Panj. because both sentences are fine.

They are not mixed conditionals.
The first is a standard 2nd conditional.
The second is a standard 3rd conditional.


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## e2efour

wandle said:


> The structure 'if A, then B' is clearly a conditional structure. What other construction can this be, but a conditional sentence?
> 
> Suppose we alter a tense in the example sentence: 'If he *has* a lot of time, he walked to work'.
> This is now grammatically incorrect (besides being logically impossible). Why? Because it breaks the rules of conditional sentences.
> 
> Thus the example sentence not only has the structure of a conditional sentence, but it also obeys the rules of conditionals.


I curious to learn what these "rules" are. There is no "rule" forbidding a real past** _if_-clause followed by a past tense.
Examples:
_If my memory serves me right, he walked to work.
If you want to know the truth, he stole from his employer.
_
I agree that _If he has a lot of time, he walked to work_ is not a good sentence, but not by reason of its grammar.

** present (corrected, see #70)


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## Thomas Tompion

e2efour said:


> If you want to know the truth, he stole from his employer.[...]


Just to take one example: for this to be a proper conditional sentence, his stealing the newspaper then was conditional upon your wanting  to know the truth now.

I don't know an intelligent English speaker who thinks this can be right.

What the person is saying is this:

_Granted that you want to know the truth, I'll tell it to you_ (another sentence which is not a conditional) _- he stole from his employer._

I'm not suggesting that the sentence - _If you want to know the truth, he stole from his employer_ - is unidiomatic, but it's certainly not a conditional sentence.


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## Loob

Thomas Tompion said:


> I'm not suggesting that the sentence - _If you want to know the truth, he stole from his employer_ - is unidiomatic, but it's certainly not a conditional sentence.


Well, for some people it is, TT.
That's one of the problems with _if-_clauses: there's a good deal of variation in the terminology used.


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> Well, for some people it is, TT.
> That's one of the problems with _if-_clauses: there's a good deal of variation in the terminology used.


Yes, I know.  But can you sanction use of the term 'conditional sentence' where one idea is not conditional upon another, just because someone uses the word _if_?

I think that, like many disagreements between serious people, our differences here stem from differences of definition.


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## DonnyB

I agree that it's not a "proper" conditional in that the outcome isn't dependent on what's stated in the if-clause coming true, which is what I always understand to be the acid test of a conditional sentence.

In that particular example, he still stole from his employer irrespective of whether or not the person wants to know the truth.

But there's nothing actually _wrong_ with that sentence otherwise.


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## Edinburgher

DonnyB said:


> But there's nothing actually _wrong_ with that sentence otherwise.


It needs to be understood as an elision of the dependent clause.
_If you want to know the truth, *then let me tell you:*  He stole..._


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## DonnyB

Edinburgher said:


> It needs to be understood as an elision of the dependent clause.
> _If you want to know the truth, *then let me tell you:*  He stole..._


That makes logical sense to me.


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## Thomas Tompion

Edinburgher said:


> If you want to know the truth, *then let me tell you:* He stole...[...]


On most people's lips this is not a conditional sentence either.

My being allowed or willing to tell you is not dependent on your wanting to know the truth.

Most people mean:_ you've said you want to know, so I'll tell you_.


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## Edinburgher

Thomas Tompion said:


> On most people's lips this is not a conditional sentence either.


Hmm.  What about "then you should listen to this:"?


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## wandle

e2efour said:


> I curious to learn what these "rules" are. There is no "rule" forbidding a real past _if_-clause followed by a past tense.


Surely this ought to read: 'There is no rule forbidding a real *present* if-clause followed by a past tense'.

No such rule has been proposed, though. It is clear that in the sentence 'If he had a lot of time, he walked to work', both verbs need to be past, because the whole situation is past. Referring to the past with a present tense does seem to me to be a mistake of grammar. This cannot be called an example of the historic present, as that would require the present in both clauses.

It would also be ungrammatical (besides being illogical) to say: 'If he had a lot of time, he will walk to work'.

As for 'If you want to know the truth, ...' I agree that there is an ellipsis.
I would supply the words: '... then I will tell you'.
This again is a valid conditional sentence, regardless of the fact that the speaker does not wait for an answer.


Thomas Tompion said:


> My being allowed or willing to tell you is not dependent on your wanting to know the truth.


That is true, but again the point is a logical one, related to the semantic content of the sentence. I still think we have to keep that clearly distinct from the grammatical construction, which remains an 'if A, then B' sentence. What else can that be but a conditional?


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