# Urdu: Words with Ain عین



## Shounak

Hello,

While going through learning Urdu, I found that some words have glottal stop. Like .عادات,عاشق,عزيز

Now, the usage of 'ain' is similar to Alif, but in case of Arabic words or rather words which have a glottal stop is used. My question is that how can we understand that? Using ع is it for Arabic words only? Shall we have to identify the words using 'ain' only through pronunciation. Say, 'mango' आम is written as 'alif+mim' but 'aam' - the mass/public is written عام

My question is how will I identify the words. Through pronunciation? Knowing which are Arabic words? Or there is a logic to identify the words which have 'ain'?

Thanks.


----------



## nawaab

You can identify the spelling of words with ع by reading more Urdu and, if needed, memorize the spelling too.  The same as you did when learning the spelling of English words that sounded similar.  You can also detect a subtle difference in pronunciation among some speakers.  Knowing which are Arabic words would help but isn't essential.  The layman on the street may spell عام correctly but have no idea about it having an Arabic etymology.


----------



## Shounak

Hello nawaab 'ji,

Thank you very much. So, either I have to identify through proper pronunciation, with glottal stop, or memorize the Arabic words.


----------



## nawaab

Yes, pay attention to peoples' pronunciation and to spelling when reading words with ع .


----------



## nawaab

It's a minor point, but some of the words with ع are of Persian origin, though the vast majority are Arabic.


----------



## PersoLatin

Hi nawaab, All words with ع are of Arabic origin. Most Arabic words in Urdu, have come via Persian, so that's what you may be thinking. 

In fact, one of the easiest ways of identifying an Arabic word in Persian (also Urdu), is the presence of ع.


----------



## Shounak

Thank you very much everybody. I will try to do.


----------



## Treaty

nawaab said:


> It's a minor point, but some of the words with ع are of Persian origin, though the vast majority are Arabic.





PersoLatin said:


> Hi nawaab, All words with ع are of Arabic origin.



It depends on what is meant by "origin". There are some Persian words which were borrowed into Arabic with ع (e.g., لعل, عشق and عفریت, if I'm not wrong) . But generally, ParsoLatin is correct if we consider the latest orthographic origin.


----------



## nawaab

I've heard there are some Persian words in which ع has replaced an original alif.


----------



## PersoLatin

I am sorry nawaab, Treaty is absolutely correct pointing out what you had said, it's the second time he's caught me doing that today:


> nawaab said: ↑
> It's a minor point, but some of the words with ع are of Persian origin, though the vast majority are Arabic.



Aside from lack of attention to detail, on my behalf, today, I'm interested to know if there are some (pure) Persian words which contain ع.

I do know of Persian words which contain Arabic letters (of the type, which I consider generally to be for use with Arabic words e.g. غ ,ط ,ث ,ص) but none with ع.


----------



## Alfaaz

Just to add on to what PersoLatin SaaHib has mentioned above, the spelling of words can often hint at etymology. As nawaab SaaHib has suggested, one would just have to practice reading and would gradually come to recognize and remember the spelling of words. Since you (Shounak) are learning to read the script and often ask about roots/etymology, here are a few generalizations based on the alphabet:

Words containing ث، ح، خ، ذ، ص، ض، ط، ظ، ع، غ، ق will generally be from Arabic (Example: حیات), Persian (Example: چراغ), or even Turkish (Example: قینچی). 
Words containing پ، چ، گ will most likely not be of Arabic origin.
Words containing ژ will generally be of Persian origin (Examples: ژالہ، مژہ، پژمردہ، اژدہا) or transliterations of words from other languages (Example: ورژن - _version_).
Words containing ٹ، ڈ، ڑ will generally be of Indic origin (Example: پہاڑ) or transliterations of words from other languages (Example: ڈاکٹر - _doctor_).
For the rest of the letters that are common to all 4+ origins (Arabic, Persian, Indic: Sanskrit/Prakrit, English, etc.), you would have to consult a dictionary for etymological information.

If there are any mistakes above, corrections would be appreciated.


----------



## Shounak

Thank you very much. Thank you Alfaaz ji. You have explained with explicit details. Indeed you have answered my next question, for the letter 'toe' and 'zoe'. There is no rule, except understand it with pronunciation and vocabulary.


----------



## PersoLatin

> Words containing ث، ح، خ، ذ، ص، ض، ط، ظ، ع، غ، ق will generally be from Arabic (Example: حیات), Persian (Example: چراغ), .......




Hi Alfaaz,

Re: your first bullet point only, presence of خ or ق, on their own doesn't make a word Arabic, here's my version:

Like other languages, Persian has many loan words. The following is only for identification of Arabic loan words in Persian, based on their spelling. (and of course, based on my understanding):

G1 - Words that contain ث، ح، ذ، ص، ض، ط، ظ، ع، غ, تشديد, أ, ء (List 1) will generally be of Arabic origin.

G2 - Small number of words of Persian origin use تشديد, ط, ث, غ or ذ (List 2). There are pronunciation, stylistic & historic reasons for this. Examples: چراغ, كيومرث, طهران, دوّم, سوّم,....please suggest more.

If a word qualifies as a  member of G1,it will be* Arabic*, *unless* it qualifies as a member of G2.
(Lists 1 & 2 are not exhaustive)


Life is never simple, there are also these groups:

- Thousands of pure Arabic words, that can not be identified by the above technique, as they don't contain letters from List 1.

- Non-Arabic words (Latin, Greek etc) which have been introduced into Persian, via Arabic, or have been Arabised since their introduction/been replaced by the Arabic versions. Examples: مغناطيس, جغرافى, اقيانوس, قسطنطنيه.....please suggest more.

- A few Arabic words, from G1, which in modern Persian, have been simplified, by changing one or more letters from (list 1), to one of the following : س, ق, ز, ت, ه. Examples: اتاق and اطاق, (please correct & suggest more)

- Arabised Persian words that have been reintroduced as Arabic. Examples: to follow...please suggest some.


----------



## Alfaaz

PersoLatin said:
			
		

> Life is never simple, there are also these groups:


 I am glad you mentioned these, as there are some Indic words as well which have oddly acquired non-Indic consonants in Urdu (mentioned below).


			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> - Non-Arabic words (Latin, Greek etc) which have been introduced into Persian, via Arabic, or have been Arabised since their introduction/been replaced by the Arabic versions. Examples: مغناطيس, جغرافى, اقيانوس, قسطنطنيه.....please suggest more.


 Here is a list in Platts and a few examples as well:
اسطبل، اسطقس، افلاطون، سقراط، اقلیم، جغرافیہ، مقناطیس، سمسم، فیلسوف، قاموس، قرطاس، قیصر، کلیسا، مرمر، نرگس، موسیقی، وغیرہ​

			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> - A few Arabic words, from G1, which in modern Persian, have been simplified, by changing one or more letters from (list 1), to one of the following : س, ق, ز, ت, ه. Examples: اتاق and اطاق, (please correct & suggest more)


 توتا ← طوطا could perhaps be an example of the opposite phenomenon. (Urdu: Parrot طوطا)


			
				PersoLatin said:
			
		

> - Arabised Persian words that have been reintroduced as Arabic. Examples: to follow...please suggest some.


Here are a few that have been discussed in previous threads: گوہر ← جوہر؛ لگام ← لجام؛ پیل ← فیل

Other exceptions: There are many words of Indic origin that have somehow gotten Arabic consonants in Urdu as discussed in Urdu: Why kh/k replaced with x (خ)?​


			
				Qureshpor said:
			
		

> I shall just add the words I mentioned there in this thread.
> 
> axroT= walnut
> paTaaxaa=cracker
> chaTaxnii=latch
> Taxnah/Taxnaa=ankle
> 
> xarraaTe lenaa= to snore
> chaTxaare lenaa= to relish food
> Tarxaanaa=to work carelessly/to prevaricate
> paTaxnaa= to slam
> kalii kaa chaTaxnaa = for bud to sprout open
> 
> There are also some "Ghain" words too. A couple of examples of these are..
> 
> GHunDah=hooligan
> GHaTaa-GHaT pii jaanaa= to gulp down
> 
> And of course "z" words too. One example that comes to mind is
> 
> zannaaTaa as in zannaaTe-daar thappaR
> 
> I don't know the reason behind replacement of an Indic consonant with a Persian/arabic one but it seem as if most of the words have a T in them!
> 
> There is also XushHaal Xaan XaTTak, but I think this is Pashto.


----------



## PersoLatin

Thank you Alfaaz for providing great examples.

One comment, the examples you gave for the last category (فيل <-- پيل ....) are not what defines this category. There are some Arabic loanwords which are Persian in origin, they entered into Arabic, both, pre & post Islam. Some of these have changed so much that, they don't look Persian any more. I'm still looking for examples of this category.

There are others e.g. دين which is used in some compound Arabic words like نظام الدين, and its introduction to Arabic, predates Islam, other variations: متدين ,تدين, اديان


----------



## tarkshya

Shounak said:


> Hello,
> 
> While going through learning Urdu, I found that some words have glottal stop. Like .عادات,عاشق,عزيز
> 
> Now, the usage of 'ain' is similar to Alif, but in case of Arabic words or rather words which have a glottal stop is used. My question is that how can we understand that? Using ع is it for Arabic words only? Shall we have to identify the words using 'ain' only through pronunciation. Say, 'mango' आम is written as 'alif+mim' but 'aam' - the mass/public is written عام
> 
> My question is how will I identify the words. Through pronunciation? Knowing which are Arabic words? Or there is a logic to identify the words which have 'ain'?
> 
> Thanks.



Shounak

Ain is actually not a glottal stop, at least not when it comes at the beginning of the word. Linguistically it is classified as voiced pharyngeal approximant. You can read more about it at wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayin#Arabic_.CA.BFAyn

It produces a very crisp sound coming deep from the throat. I, as a non-semitic person can distinguish it from alif when I hear it, but for the life of me just can't pronounce it.

Most Urdu speakers can't pronounce it either. They simply dumb it down to plain alif, as they do with a host of other beautiful Arabic sounds such as ز ، ذ ، ض ، ظ (all merged into a single /z/ sound).

If you really want to appreciate its true pronunciation, I suggest you try some Arabic language online dictionaries. Google translate can also provide the pronunciation of some Arabic words.


----------



## nawaab

Please see this thread.


----------



## tarkshya

It all comes down to the question that who is a true Urdu speaker. I have got Muslim friends from Tamil Nadu who insist on calling their mother tongue Urdu. I have heard them speak this so called "Urdu", and it sounds like a weird pidgin of Tamil, Hindi and Deccani Urdu to me. Let alone speaking a "sheen qaaf se durast Urdu", they can't even distinguish between "k" and "kh". (Their Tamil roots cause this allophony). I am always amused when they try to speak "khaanaa" (food), but end up speaking "kaanaa" (one-eyed person). But they will doggedly call their language Urdu, and we must accept it in a pluralistic society. So can you generalize that all Urdu speakers can speak 'ain?


----------



## Shounak

Very well said tarkashya. It made me giggle while reading. Even I have heard people telling Urdu pronouncing 
ग़म as गम. By Urdu speaker I mean, I have heard Gulzar ji speaking. Heard Naseerudin Shah speaking, reciting poems. I found their pronunciation good.


----------

