# As welcome as a dog in a game of skittles (not welcome, unwelcome)



## Arrius

I just heard the above expression in a dramatised version of Leo Tolstoy's "War and Peace" on the BBC. It is said by a young army officer describing the cool (unfriendly) reception he received from the general staff at headquarters when he arrived there with not entirely favourable news on the progress of a battle against Napoleon.
The expression seems amusingly vivid to me. However, I had never before heard it either in English or any other language and suppose it, probably wrongly, to be originally Russian like the book. Furthermore, I cannot think what saying there might be in English or any other language that expresses this idea - "like a scalded cat" will just not do. (*Game of skittles*, not a particularly common expression any more, is *jeu de quilles* in French, *Kegelspiel* in German, *juego de bolos* in Spanish, and it appears that the Italians say *gioco di bocce* or use the American "*bowling*".
_Any ideas on idioms in English or other languages to express *being unwelcome?* ( Such expressions are unlikely to include any reference to skittles or bowling)._


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## Bil

About as welcome as a skunk at a lawn party.
About as welcome as a mariachi band on the morning after.
About as welcome as a hangover.
About as welcome as a root canal.


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## andy town

I once heard: as welcome as a bacon sandwich at a bar mitzvah (no offence intended)


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## speedier

*About as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit* had everyone in hysterical laughter when the Scottish Comedian Billy Connolly mentioned it years ago on a Michael Parkinson show in the UK).


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## Arrius

Of the many good alternatives, *Speedier*'s seems the most graphic, the wretched flatulent astronaut being quite unable to take evasive action unlike the people in all the other suggestions. It is not a set phrase, however, like "dodging about like a fart in a colander", used in London to describe a person who can't keep still.


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## hernito

There are literally HUNDREDS of that kind of idioms in castellano.
At least in Argentina, and they describe every possible situation.
Believe me.
And "como perro en cancha de bochas" "as a dog in a skittles game" is used to describe someone completely out of its place and confused and scared.


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## rusita preciosa

Russian really does not have many sayings about being unwelcome (we are just such welcoming people ).

The one I can think of is 
*незваный гость хуже татарина* /nezvanyi gost' khuzhe tatarina/ - an uninvited guest is worse that a Tatar.
 
why Tatar? Info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Tataro-Mongol_Yoke_in_Russia


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## speedier

Well, I've learnt something today, an alternative spelling of Tartar.

One other that comes to mind is "about as welcome as a hedgehog in a condom factory".


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## Myriam_Twilight

Well, in Spain we say ´_tienes mas peligro que un_ _erizo en una fábrica de condones_´ it means ´_you´re as dangerous as a hedgehog in a condom factory_´. But I sort of feel it has nothing to do with being unwelcome.
I don´t know...


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## ThomasK

We will say: as a dog in a game of skittles when someone comes in and disturbs the game/ ruins the atmosphere. 

You could say: as welcome as a dog with flees (_*als een hond met vlooien*_)...


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## Arrius

As welcome as a dog turd on a persian carpet.


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## speedier

Arrius said:


> As welcome as a dog turd on a persian carpet.



Hahaha, which reminds me of: "as welcome as a turd in a swimming pool"


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## Maroseika

speedier said:


> Well, I've learnt something today, an alternative spelling of Tartar.


It's not an alternative spelling. Just in English _Tartar _and _Tatar _are different words (refering to the ancient Mongolian-Turkic tribes headed by Ghengis Khan and to the modern Tatar people, respectively), but in Russian both are called equally. Of course Russian saying originally refered to the formers.


Arrius said:


> I just heard the above expression in a dramatised version of Leo Tolstoy's "War and Peace" on the BBC. It is said by a young army officer describing the cool (unfriendly) reception he received from the general staff at headquarters when he arrived there with not entirely favourable news on the progress of a battle against Napoleon.
> ...is jeu de quilles in French,



By the way, in the original Tolstoy's text the pharse was pronounced in French:
Ils m'ont reçu avec ma nouvelle, comme un chien dans un jeu de quilles.

Russian endnote gives literal translations because there is no stilistically equal saying in Russian.


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## DenisBiH

Arrius said:


> _Any ideas on idioms in English or other languages to express *being unwelcome?*_



Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian:
_
Osjećati se kao krme u Teheranu. -_ "To feel (welcome) like a pig in Tehran."

No offense intended to our fellow Iranian members.


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## Geo.

At a time when someone _born outside of wedlock_ was stigmatised for being _illegitimate_, I remember when I first came to North America hearing _*‘As welcome as a bastard at a family reunion!’*_ or _*‘They treated him / her / me like a bastard at a family reunion!’*_ 

I can’t imagine it bears the same weight to-day, but there is a time _— well within living memory —_ when _illegitimacy was a grave social taboo_. Moreover, although _the word ‘bastard’ itself, could be stated in formal circumstances — in the distant past — ‘illegitimate’ was long considered the polite or socially acceptable way to say the same_, so the very choice of the word ‘bastard’ _packed a further_ punch! 

_(I’m not saying that we live in perfect times, but thankfully, prejudices against those born outside of wedlock have now been relegated to the same heap as segregation, anti-Semitism, racialism, misogyny, and other evils that marginalise innocent people). _


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## Orlin

DenisBiH said:


> Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian:
> 
> _Osjećati se kao krme u Teheranu. -_ "To feel (welcome) like a pig in Tehran."
> 
> No offense intended to our fellow Iranian members.


Zanimljivo mi je zašto posebno u Teheranu jer mislim da i u ostalim muslimanskim državama mrze (i stoga ne čuvaju) svinje.


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## Arrius

Almost four years have passed since this thread was opened, but we still haven't had any German or Arabic equivalent offered so far. The similar expression *like a bull in a china shop* is literally _*wie ein Stier im Porzellangeschäft*_ in German and _*mithl thawr fi dukaan albursileen*_ in Arabic. I have no idea if anyone actually says either of these (it would be more likely a camel /_jamal_ that does the damage in Arabic), but they might serve to jog someone's memory and induce them to give the correct equivalent expression for the idea of the thread.


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## Geo.

As I remember, I think *‘like a bull in a china shop’ *is fixed in translation of the idiom as _*„wie ein Elefant im Porzellanladen“*_, though not overly common, but enough to have a form of its own in German at least. _(Just as, in a similar way, *‘I wasn’t born yesterday!’ = „Ich bin doch nicht von gestern!“*, where, although actually quite close in translation, it’s not perfectly literal). _

(I grew up in the UK, though speaking Swiss-German with my mother’s family, yet without any formal education in German, moreover in that limited familial context ... thus, I do not claim to be any authority in German).

I have a feeling similar idioms, in German, for _‘As welcome as ...’ to mean ‘unwelcome’,_ _might_ be predicated on the word _„unerwünscht“,_ but the only one which comes to mind is nationalsozialistische, and thus unworthy of repeating.


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## catlady60

I've heard--better yet, come up with--funny expressions like, 
_He's about as welcome as a sewer rat in a penthouse.
She fits in like a cat in a bird sanctuary.
_


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## ThomasK

Geo. said:


> As I remember, I think *‘like a bull in a china shop’ *is fixed in translation of the idiom as _*„wie ein Elefant im Porzellanladen“*_, though not overly common, but enough to have a form of its own in German at least.


 
It would be interesting to find out if those really mean the same: one causes disturbance, the other damage, which is only one consequence of disturbance, isn't it?


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## Orlin

Bulgarian uses "като слон в стъкларски магазин" for "like a bull in a china shop" too.


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## Selyd

in Ukrainian:
Бог дав свято, а чорт - гості. - The god has given a holiday, and features - guests.
Гарні гості, та не в пору. - The good guests, but not in time.
Риба і гості псуються через три дні. - Fish and the guests spoil in three days.
Гість першого дня - золото, другого - срібло, а третього - мідь: додому їдь. - The guest of the first day - gold, second - silver, and third - copper: home
Добрі гості, та в середу трапились. - The kind guests, but on Wednesday have got.
Один гість - радість, два - вага, три - тягар. - One guest- pleasure, two - weight, three - burden.
Непроханий гість гірше татарина. - an uninvited guest is worse that a Tatar
Незваний гість - гірше вовка. - an uninvited guest is worse that a wolf.
Несе чорт гості. -carries features of the guests.

Can interestingly.


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## rusita preciosa

Selyd said:


> in Ukrainian:
> Бог дав свято, а чорт - гості. - The god has given a holiday, and features - guests.
> Несе чорт гості. -carries features of the guests.


Why did you translate *чорт* as "features"?? (Your whole post looks like a machine translation)


Arrius said:


> The similar expression *like a bull in a china shop* is literally _*wie ein Stier im Porzellangeschäft*_ in German and _*mithl thawr fi dukaan albursileen*_ in Arabic.


In Russian we say *слон в посудной лавке* /slon v posudnoy lavke/ (elephant in a china shop), but the meaning is different, it is someone who lacks finesse (literally or figuratively), not someone who is not welcome.


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## Geo.

rusita preciosa said:


> In Russian we say *слон в посудной лавке* /slon v posudnoy lavke/ (elephant in a china shop), but the meaning is different, it is someone who lacks finesse (literally or figuratively), not someone who is not welcome.


 
_*Hello rusita preciosa,* _

_(I see your Russian idiom is virtually identical to the same idiom in the German). _

You _are_ right, in that _‘like a bull in a china shop’_ describes someone who _lacks finesse, (or creates chaotic disruption),_ and this turn of phrase _does not convey the precise sense of_ _someone, (or something), unwelcome_ ... and in the former sense, for instance, I would be inclined to translate _‘like a bull in a china shop’_ in French as _« arriver avec ses gros sabots »_, literally _‘to show up in big wooden-shoes (or clogs)’, and yet it would not convey the exact sense of the latter either. _

*However, upon examining Arrius’ comment more fully:- *



Arrius said:


> _... (the example expressions cited) *might serve to jog someone’s memory and induce them to give the correct equivalent expression for the ‘idea of the thread’.*_


 
And in this latter instance, returning to that original idea, I regret, I have no example, which comes to mind, to express that precise meaning. (_Other ‘to’ ;-) _once having over-heard an elderly French gentleman make a remark _that sounded like_ _« Donc, accueilli comme les sales boches en Alsace-Lorraine! »_ _— __(i.e. ‘Subsequently greeted like the bloody Huns in Alsace & Lorraine!’) — and __more probably his personal expression, in the moment, than any set-phrase._ (But perhaps _we would do better to leave the animosities he expressed from the previous century, in the previous century). _

_P.S. You’ve a new avatar ... Yuri Gagarin, the first man in outer-space! _


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## rusita preciosa

Geo. said:


> _P.S. You’ve a new avatar ... Yuri Gagarin, the first man in outer-space! _


Yep, 50 years ago next month!


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## Selyd

rusita preciosa said:


> Why did you translate *чорт* as "features"?? (Your whole post looks like a machine translation)


 Excuse me, *чорт* is devil.


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## Kotlas

In Russian, there is this phrase:
как собаке пятая нога -  as a fifth leg for a dog
[kak sa'bake 'pyataya na'ga]

I think English has the idiom "fifth wheel" for an unwelcome or extra person.
We have it, too, in this phrase:

как телеге пятое колесо - as a fifth wheel on a _telega_ (a four-wheel horse-drawn vehicle used to carry goods)
[kak te'leghe 'pyataye kale'so]


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## ThomasK

I am not so sure this is the same as the dog in the skittle game. The dog hinders us, the fifth wheel or fifth leg is the unnecessary one, I think. In the first case you are blaming someone, in the latter case you are saying about yourself or someone else that you need not be there...


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## Kotlas

Normally, when we say we don't need smth/smb, the sentiment expressed is indifference: we don't care if the person or thing is available. In the case of the dog in the game of skittles, I think the sentiment is annoyance as the dog is sure to disrupt the game.
In my opinion, both "a fifth leg" and "a fifth wheel" can be used in situations where the sentiment is annoyance, not just indifference, becoming, thus, synonymous to the original phrase, - in spirit, at least. For example, you can find the "fifth leg" phrase in Alexander Kuprin's story "The Duel". The company commander (Captain Sliva) says angrily to his subaltern who got him (i.e. Sliva) in trouble with the regiment commander,
"И на кой мне чёрт вас в роту прислали? Нужны вы мне, как собаке пятая нога." - Why the hell did they send you to my company? I need you as a dog needs a fifth leg.

Anyway, here are some more phrases found on the web:

As welcome as a porcupine at a nudist colony.
As welcome as holy water in Satan's drink.
As welcome as a hole in a lifeboat.
As welcome as a taxman's letter.
As welcome as a nut cutlet at a cannibal banquet.
As welcome as a reggae band at a Ku Klux Klan convention.
About as welcome as a coffin at a wooden wedding.


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## ThomasK

Interesting note. Especially in the way it is used in that film script, you are certainly right. And indeed there is some annoyance indeed when we refer to someone saying: "He is like the fifth wheel on/... the waggon/ cart." Yet, there is irritation in the skittle game; he is simply useless in our expression, but OK, some irritation might be implied. At least you are critical.


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## Geo.

Kotlas said:


> ... both "a fifth leg" and "*a fifth wheel*" can be used in situations where the sentiment is annoyance ...


Kotlas, I'll not argue a modern sense of the phrase 'fifth wheel', but in its historical origin, a/the fifth wheel of a horse drawn vehicle sits parallel to the ground between the front of the chassis and the front axle, so as to allow the front axle to rotate laterally with the horses (and later tractors) in order to allow for any drawn vehicle to turn.
See: Why is it called Fifth Wheel ? with diagram.
(I spent my youth on a farm, and would ask you to believe me, if the fifth wheel became bound, one could actually tip a waggon right over if trying to turn sharply).
In as much as the other four wheels were upright and performed a different function, calling someone a fifth wheel originally meant 'the odd man out'.
Language evolves, however, and I'm not young, so I can appreciate the original sense may be lost with its origin, and thus the precise meaning of calling someone a fifth wheel may have changed, or expanded.
In my time I would say a fair example of its use might have been:  'John came with us to the Pally, but he can't dance, so whilst we all danced with the girls, poor John just stood there propping up the wall like a fifth wheel'.
Here 'John' isn't any annoyance, he is simply one who cannot join in or participate in the way his piers can.



ThomasK said:


> Interesting note. Especially in the way it is used in that film script, you are certainly right. And indeed there is some annoyance indeed when we refer to someone saying: "*He is like the fifth wheel on/... the waggon/ cart.*" Yet, there is irritation in the skittle game; he is simply useless in our expression, but OK, some irritation might be implied. At least you are critical.


ThomasK, you posted before I could reply,  and have touched on the very subject I was beginning to broach, but I ask you to follow the link above to see what a fifth wheel literally is.  The original English idiom didn't imply irritation, but rather singularity, and it may/could have even been said with pathos, as in my example.
Again, you may see it in a different way because of the times, and a modern view may well be legitimate.  (In my defence though, that isn't a way _I_ would use it).
Actually, although the configuration is somewhat different, the back of an articulated lorry without the trailer attached has the fifth wheel mounted above the rear traction wheels, and is the point on which the trailer connects, and in this context the term remains current to this day, see: An 18 Wheeler! Which Is the Fifth Wheel? - Heavy Haul Trucking mid-page, or for more detailed information: Fifth-wheel coupling - Wikipedia, with lithograph Martin Rocking Fifth Wheel.​


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## Kotlas

Geo. said:


> The original English idiom didn't imply irritation, but rather singularity, and it may/could have even been said with pathos, as in my example.


In the vehicle mentioned in the Russian idiom, the turning device was not called 'fifth wheel'. So in our language, the fifth wheel (on a telega - {and on a chariot, as was in earlier Russian literary works}; mind that we always add the vehicle's name in Russian in this saying!) has always been viewed as something utterly useless. As a result, the phrase has always been said with some disapproval and/or to show slight (I hope I am using the word correctly) but never with pathos.

As for the English phrase, the WR dictionary has also this example:
_They enjoy making any outsider feel like a fifth wheel._
I think it means they enjoyed making any outsider feel unwelcome (not very comfortable, at least).

Anyway, what you've written in your post makes perfect sense to me, and I believe the phrase presents a good example of how differently one idiom can be used in different languages (or in different periods of time in the same language). On Dictionary.com, I've found this interesting comment on the origin of the phrase:
This expression, which alludes to an unneeded wheel on a four-wheel vehicle, may have originated as long ago as 1631, when Thomas Dekker wrote Match Me in London : “Thou tiest but wings to a swift gray Hounds heel, And addest to a running Chariot a fifth wheel.”


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## Encolpius

*Hungarian*: Úgy kellett ez nekem, mint hátamra a púp. [I needed that as *a hump on my back*]


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## bibax

I have recalled the Enforcer (with Clint Eastwood):

Harry Callahan: You're not making us feel too welcome.
Koblo: Oh, you welcome! 'Bout as welcome as a turd in a swimming pool!

In the Czech dubbing:

"Seš tu vítanej jak hovno v bazénu" _(lit. [You] are welcome here as [a] shit in [the] [swimming] pool)_


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