# Double causative constructions: case markers



## Nino83

Hello everybody.  

I read here and here that Finnish allows double causative constructions, like in these sentences.  

Kapteeni        haetutti                                                                luutnantilla                   ratsunsa. 
Captain-N.s.  command a person to make someone fetch-3-sg.-past   lieutenant-Addessive s.  horse-Gen.s. 
The captain commanded the lieutenant to have his horse fetched.  

Työnjohtaja     veä-tä-ttä-ä      tukkeja    hevosmiehellä
foreman.NOM   haul-CS-CS-3SG logs.PART driver.ADES
‘The foreman orders the driver to get the logs hauled (by the horse).’

In these sentences, only the "intermediary", i.e the first causee is expressed, while the secon causee, i.e the agent, the person who make the action, is not expressed. 

I would ask you if it is possible to express both causees.  

For example, in the sentence "the captain commanded John to have the horse fetched by Mike" or "the captain commanded John to make Mike fetch the horse", or "the captain commanded John to have the horse fetched by means of Mike".  

Thank you


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## fennofiili

“Double causatives” like “teetätyttää” as opposite to “simple causatives” like “teettää” are only used in (poor) jokes, though some non-native (and maybe even native) speakers may take them seriously. When used in real language, they are just (substandard) synonyms for causative verbs.

The normative Kielitoimiston sanakirja says e.g. about “teetätyttää” simply “paremmin: teettää” (an about “haetuttaa” it says: “paremmin: haettaa”). There is no double causation involved, and using two causative suffixes is just substandard language.

Making someone do something can be direct or indirect, and it is generally very difficult to draw a line between these forms of causation (or, say, between double and triple causation). It is also rather pointless.


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## Nino83

Thank you, fennofiili.  
It seems there is the same situation in Hungarian. They find double causative constructions unnatural.


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## Nino83

Hello, fennofiili.
I noted you're speaking of "tee-tä-ty-ttää", which is a "triple" causative. Of course triple causatives are too redundant and no linguist think it is appropriate and common.
The examples in #1 are double causatives, i.e "tee-tä-ttää", "to cause somebody make somebody something" or "to make somebody have something done". 
Are double causatives like "tee-tä-ttää" common in Finnish speech and are they opposed to "teettää"?


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## Gavril

Nino83 said:


> Hello, fennofiili.
> I noted you're speaking of "tee-tä-ty-ttää", which is a "triple" causative. Of course triple causatives are too redundant and no linguist think it is appropriate and common.
> The examples in #1 are double causatives, i.e "tee-tä-ttää", "to cause somebody make somebody something" or "to make somebody have something done".



_haetuttaa _is a double causative (_hae-t-uttaa_), and the dictionary (as Fennofiili quoted) recommends against using it.

In the entry for _teetättää_, the same dictionary says "paremmin: _teettää_" -- i.e. it recommends using a simple 1st-level causative instead.


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## Nino83

Thank you. 
It seems that, even if the causative marker can be repeated in order to form double causatives in Finnish, Hungarian and Turkish, most of the time it doesn't happen, speakers tend to avoid this construction and the double suffix has the *same* meaning of the single suffix.


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