# etymology of Persian eshgh



## Alijsh

Many people think that išq (newer pronunciation ešq) is a loanword from Arabic but it's wrong. This word has an Avestan root, iška and has been išk in Middle Persian. I knew it and you can read about it in this page (in Persian) at #44. It also mentions Indo-European cognates for this word. 

iška is a compound from -iš which means "to want, to desire, to seek" and suffix -ka. the PIE of -iš is apparently -ais.

What do you think about it?

(can I paste part of it here?)


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## Frank06

Hi,

Is it possible that there is no context for this post, question (?)...



Alijsh said:


> Many people think that išq (newer pronunciation ešq) is a loanword from Arabic but it's wrong. This word has an Avestan root, iška and has been išk in Middle Persian. I knew it


That's nice.


> and you can read about it in this page (in Persian) at #44. It also mentions Indo-European cognates for this word.
> iška is a compound from -iš which means "to want, to desire, to seek" and suffix -ka. the PIE of -iš is apparently -ais.
> What do you think about it?


I think that one can find the same information here.

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Alijsh

Frank06 said:


> Is it possible that there is no context for this post, question (?)...


Less people know this and I want to know the opinion of others especially Arabic speakers and also to verify those mentioned IE cognates and PIE root. Thanks for that link. I don't know how to use it but hopefully I'll find it out. You really helped me by introducing that link.


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## Nikola

Here is another link  http://aramis.obspm.fr/~heydari/dictionary/esq_pers.html
Perhaps it is a re-loan word, from Persian to Arabic then back to Persian. Urdu and Hindi etymologies say Arabic to Persian to Hindi/Urdu.


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## Mahaodeh

Alijsh said:


> I want to know the opinion of others especially Arabic speakers


 
I didn't quite get the word, can you write it in Arabic letters or give the meaning so we can recognise it?


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## mkh

Mahaodeh said:


> I didn't quite get the word, can you write it in Arabic letters or give the meaning so we can recognise it?


عشق (eshgh) meaning love. Ask derived from PIE *ais- "to wish, desire" may be cognate to this word.


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## Frank06

Hi,

A quick search on several wikis brings me to this and this link. Both state that عشق is originally an Arabic word. The (quite small) Persian dictionary فـرهنگ فـارسی عمید gives 'ع', i.e. "from Arabic" and also Steingass gives an Arabic etymology.

I find the Avestan possibility quite interesting, but do you have more data to support this view?


> Many people think that išq (newer pronunciation ešq) is a loanword from Arabic but it's wrong. This word has an Avestan root, iška and has been išk in Middle Persian.


I'm thinking of other Avestan words which end in -k or -shk and which give modern Persian -gh or -shgh?
(Sorry, I don't have the IPA signs at hand right now)

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Mahaodeh

I don't know about the Persian one, it may be a concidence that they seem similar. I guess you guys would know better. However, I would not depend too much on Wikipedia for information. Their description of 3ishq in Arabic is not accurate. Actually, in Arabic 3ishq means strong irrational love whether with or without lust while they stated it is only without lust; the world also means to follow/stick with/not to let go/cling to someone or something in addition to trimming and taking care of plants, These were not mentioned.


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## Alijsh

Perhaps it's a recent etymology and that's why it is not found there.

 It seems that I have to translate most of that Persian page I mentioned in the starting post. Here you are (I hope you find it useful. it took much of my tonight free time) :

 عشقhas root in Avestan "iška-", which means "want, desire". "iška-" is related to "iš-", which means "to want, to desire, to wish; to seek". Avestan "iš-" has also these derivations:

 aēša : wish, desire; seeking, search
 išaiti : wants, wishes
 išta: what one desires, wishes
 išti: wish; objective

 -ka is a productive prefix and is also, for example, found in:

 mahrka
 araska
 aδka
 huška
 pasuka
 drafška
 dahaka

 Avestan -iš is cognate with Sanskrit:

 eṣ: to wish, to want, to seek
 icchā: wish, desire, request
 icchati: wants, wishes
 iṣta: what one desires, loved, favorite 
 iṣti: desire, seeking, search

 According Dr. Farahvashi we have "išt" in Middle Persian which means "desire, tendency; possessions, remained wealth"

 The mentioned Sanskrit and Avestan words come from Indo-European "-ais", which means "to want, to desire; to seek" and its nominal form "-aisskā" means "desire, tendency; seeking, search".

 Derivations form IE "-ais" is also found in

 Old Church Slavic: isko, išto, iska
 Russian: iskat
 Lithuanian: ieškau
 Armenian: aic
 Latin: aeruscare
 Old High German: eiscon
 Old English: ascian
 Today Egnlish: ask

 Our traditional lexicographers relate عشق to the Arabic word عَشَق, which means "to stick". They also relate it to the plant عَشَقَه. (the same mentioned in Steingass)

 Since Arabic and Hebrew belong to the same family, noble Semitic words usually derive with identical meanings and it’s interesting that عشق does not have an equivalent Hebrew word. The Hebrew word for "love" is اَحَو  "ahav", which is cognate with Arabic حَبّ  َ  "habba". There's also another Hebrew word خَشَق "xašaq" but it’s not cognate with Arabic عشق. Hebrew "x" is related to Arabic "h" (ح) or "x"; and Hebrew "ع" is related to Arabic"ع" or  "غ" . As is apparent from its Aramaic, خَشَق initially meant “to close; to press”. Professor Arnold Werner states that initial Hebrew "x" always becomes "h" in Arabic and never ع.

 Besides, عشق has not come in Koran but حَبَّ (habba) and its derivations like حُبّ (hubb). In today Arabic, عشق is not used much but hubba and derivations like حب، حبیب، حبیبه، محبوب

 Even Ferdowsi who aimed to avoid using Arabic words has willingly used عشق several times and it is probable that he has not himself written it with "ع" but as اِشق or even اِشک however it’s not easy to prove it because the earliest manuscript from Shahname we have now dates back to two centuries after Ferdowsi.

 Conversion of Persian "k" to Arabic "q" is not rare:
 کندک، خندق، زندیک،زندیق، کفیز،قفیز،کوشک، جوسق​ 
To sum up, Avestan "iš", which comes from IE "ais" (to want, to desire, to seek) has brought up "iška" and Middle Persian "išk" that has passed to Arabic. 

 The interesting point is that in Iranian عرفان (Gnosticism?) we can trace love being linked to the meanings of “search” and “to seek” including منطق*الطیر of Attar and some poems of Mawlana Rumi that defines the word عشق with  its Persian root “to want, to seek”.

 Footnote:
 The author is grateful to Dr. Scott B. Noegel, Professor of Biblical and Ancient Near Eastern Studies, Chair, Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilization, University of Washington, for replying to his questions about the etymology of _xašaq_. The author is also indebted to Dr. Werner Arnold, Professor of Semitic studies, Department for Languages and Cultures of the Near East, University of Heidelberg, for helpful comments. The author also would like to thank Dr. Jalil Doostkhah Professor of Avestan studies, for his remarks on a preliminary version of this note.




Mahaodeh said:


> I don't know about the Persian one, it may be a concidence that they seem similar.


That Persian page also says so. It proposes two possibilities for how it has come into Arabic. The second one relates it to early Islamic era and says that since authors of that era didn't know about its Iranian root they mixed it up with Arabic  عَشَق


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## WadiH

Alijsh said:


> In today Arabic, عشق is not used much but hubba and derivations like حب، حبیب، حبیبه، محبوبd



 
This is actually not accurate.  عشق is used quite commonly in MSA to refer to amorous love.  In the spoken Arabic of the Peninsula and among the bedouins, it is used very often in this meaning.  In Arabian vernacular poetry, عشق is encountered far, far more frequently than حبّ.  I don't notice it as much in people's speech outside the Peninsula, however.


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## Alijsh

Thanks Hanifa. I was translating. If I were to write something myself I didn't talk about its usage because usage of a word seems pointless to me. For example, we have about 500-1000 (_I don't remember the exact number_) Iranian words that are found in today Armenian but have not reached to New Persian


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## avok

Hi,

We have this word "Aşk" in Turkish too, which means "love" people think it is aan Arabic loan word. There are also other words believed to be derived from the word "Aşk" such as "Maşuk", "Aşık" ( the one who loves etc.) But I really dont know the etymology. I shall check it out later.


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## mkh

Hi,
First of all consider that Persian is an IE language.


Frank06 said:


> The (quite small) Persian dictionary فـرهنگ فـارسی عمید gives 'ع', i.e. "from Arabic" and also Steingass gives an Arabic etymology.


Have we permission to talk about letters, or only sounds?
It is assumed that all the words in Iran having ح ذ ص ض ط ظ ع are Arabic. But even if English words are written by Arabic fonts, any one could see many similar words between Arabic and English words.
If you write ask with Arabic fonts, you will have عشق.
If for an Arabic word is suggested an equivalent in English, the answer will be: Arabic is Semitic and English isn't. So how do you arbitrate simply that Iranian words are Arabic? only by letters??? 

Thanks,
Mahdi.


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## Frank06

Hi,


mkh said:


> First of all consider that Persian is an IE language.


Thank you.




> But even if English words are written by Arabic fonts, any one could see many similar words between Arabic and English words.


 Come again?



> If you write ask with Arabic fonts, you will have عشق.


I am not sure I understand you. You're talking about transcribing English 'ask' with Arabic letters, yes? If so, then you mean عسک, don't you? (I am not sure about initial a, but that's not the point here). 
But why would anybody transcribe the letter s, which represents the sound [s] in the case of ask, as Arabic ش, and k [k] as ق ? Please correct me if I got it wrong!
Now, if you're not talking about transcriptions from the Arabic to the Latin script, then I want to ask you to explain exactly what you mean.




> If for an Arabic word is suggested an equivalent in English, the answer will be: Arabic is Semitic and English isn't.


Three questions: 
(1) Says who? 
(2) What's your point? 
and 
(3) What does this have to do with this topic?



> So how do you arbitrate simply that Iranian words are Arabic? only by letters???


The same three questions as above, plus an extra one:
(4) Why are you using a straw man argument?

Khoda hafez,

Frank


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## Alijsh

Frank,

We can't judge from letters. Each Persian vowel at the beginning of the syllable has a hamze (glottal stop) being merge with its sound. That is, all syllables of Persian begin with a consonant. Syllabic pattern of Persian is CV(C(C)). So we could use ع to write them. 

1 - Consider عروس (arus). It's a Persian word and its Avestan is ârus or so. It is still pronounced ârus in many dialects of Persian and other Iranian languages. It has the same root as the verb ârâstan (to adorn).

2- Consider عرابه (arrâba / arrâbe). It's again a Persian word, which has been written with ع . However it's variation written as ارابه also exists. Turks use this word for "car".

We have many words that have been written with Arabic letters. Another example is محراب (mihrâb / mehrâb) which is the same مهراب. Another one is ذات (zât) which is زات. The middle Persian form of New Persian زاد (zâd -> zâdan).

***
Dear Avok: Here we deal with etymology. So, I'm talking about the origin of the word "išq". "Maşuk" and "Aşık" are from this word but they have been made according to Arabic word building patterns and can be considered Arabic words. They have most probably come into Turkish thru Persian just like the majority of other originally Arabic words found in Turkic languages. We also have and use these words: ma'şuq, âşiq / âşeq


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## Frank06

Hi,


Alijsh said:


> We can't judge from letters.[...]


Thanks for the explanation, but, erm, believe me, letters is quite often the last thing I want to take into consideration if not necessary .
I have a faint idea why letters were brought up in this thread, but I don't think it has a lot to do with the topic.

Let's go back to eshgh.

Groetjes,

Frank


*PS: I moved the discussion about transcriptions between English-Arabic and Persian to a **new thread**.*


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## avok

Alijsh said:


> ***
> Dear Avok: Here we deal with etymology. So, I'm talking about the origin of the word "išq". "Maşuk" and "Aşık" are from this word but they have been made according to Arabic word building patterns and can be considered Arabic words. They have most probably come into Turkish thru Persian just like the majority of other originally Arabic words found in Turkic languages. We also have and use these words: ma'şuq, âşiq / âşeq


 
Yes, Alijsh you are right. And is it possible to create words from a non Arabic word (işk) using this Arabic method? By the way, if I'm not mistaken, Indian people use the word "işk" to mean "love"


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## WadiH

This seems like a plausible theory to me, but we need more information.  When would this borrowing have occurred, supposedly?  For example, before Islam or after?  Early in Islamic history or later?  I suppose we need to investigate the Arabic corpus to see the earliest usage of the word.  I'll see what I can find in my spare time.


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## Nikola

In post 4 the link I gave also has an English version http://aramis.obspm.fr/~heydari/dictionary/esq_eng.html
However the Hindi/Urdu etymologies show Arabic to Persian to Hindi/Urdu. So there are conflicting etymologies. There may be a Persian to Arabic back to Persian etymology. Let's see if Wadi Hanifa can find an Arabic etymology.


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## Alijsh

Dear Hanifa,

That page has mentioned two possibilities for how it has come into Arabic:

1- Before Islam. As you know Sasanian Empire ruled over some Arab regions. So there has been contact between Persian and Arabic even before Islam. The areas particularly mentioned on that page are: حیره، بحرین، عمان، یمن، و حجاز​ 2- After Islam and since lexicographers didn't know about its Iranian root which is related to “to want and seek” they related it to Arabic عَشَق, which means “to stick”.​ 


Nikola said:


> There may be a Persian to Arabic back to Persian etymology.


​ That's what I think. We have such a case for many words however I'm not basing my opinion on this but the mentioned etymology and the existent words in earlier forms of Persian.

​ 


			
				Frank06  said:
			
		

> Thanks for the explanation, but, erm, believe me, letters is quite often the last thing I want to take into consideration if not necessary .
> I have a faint idea why letters were brought up in this thread, but I don't think it has a lot to do with the topic.


​ You're welcome. I also think so. It's not (so) related to the topic.
​


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## WadiH

Alijsh said:


> Dear Hanifa,​
> 
> That page has mentioned two possibilities for how it has come into Arabic:​
> 1- Before Islam. As you know Sasanian Empire ruled over some Arab regions. So there has been contact between Persian and Arabic even before Islam. The areas particularly mentioned on that page are: حیره، بحرین، عمان، یمن، و حجاز​


 
Certainly.  The Quran itself uses several words of Persian origin.  My impression, however, is that these borrowings usually relate to more tangible concepts, so to speak, than amorous love.


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## thelastchoice

I would like to explain that the Arabic word عشق is on of the many words for love and usually عشق is love of beaty i.e. it is encountering some level of lust in it. The persian word is a loan and this is not a new information and it is even acknowledged in Persian Dictionaries. The new Persian language has thousands of Arabic loans specially in religious issues. Regarding محراب it is a genuine Arabic word and it was mentioned in pre-Islam poems to denote the high place in a house and then it was used religiously to denote the place where an Imam (Prayer Leader) stands to perform prayer.
I believe Alijsh's argument regarding عروس or عربة which was misspelled as عرابه implies a weak background in Arabic. That is because all these words have original Arabic roots : أعرس ; عرب and one thing to mention is that Early Arabic Linguists and Dictionary makers were so preices in mentioning the origin of none Arabic words and that they did not mention any non Arabic origins for عشق ; عروس ; عربة or محراب.
Another issue is that Persians will not transleterate Ask as عشق . Of course it will be أسك.

In addition: 


> Originally Posted by *Alijsh*
> In today Arabic, عشق is not used much but hubba and derivations like حب، حبیب، حبیبه، محبوبd


Being a native Arabic speaker I simply can say this information is not correct and عشق is used even in Colloquial Arbic Poems and it is so popular and has more romantic sense than حب (Hubb) . and there is nothing like Hubba in Arabic. I think Alijsh meant Hubb. عشق has derivatives such as :
عاشق a lover
معشوق one being loved
and even these are used in Urdo , Persian , and Turkish.
One the other hand, Arbic has borrowed some Persian words but not as much as Persian did. These words inclued استبرق which is a type of textile from استبره
فالوذج which is a type of sweet from فالوده


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## Aydintashar

"Iranian" is no equivalent to "Persian". Please use correct terminology, as there is no language called "Iranian" Since Iran is a multi-cultural society, we cannot assume that it has a single language called "Iranian". In fact, Persian is not even the mother language of the majority of Iranians.


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## Treaty

Is it possible that Arabic _ʕ-š-q_ is related to Semitic _ḥ-š-q_ (to bind, associate > Heb. to love, desire), for example, loaned via another Semitic language which had lost the distinction between laryngeals?


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## OBrasilo

Could the world be related to Slavic _iskati_, meaning _to search_ or _to seek_?


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## momai

Treaty said:


> Is it possible that Arabic _ʕ-š-q_ is related to Semitic _ḥ-š-q_ (to bind, associate > Heb. to love, desire), for example, loaned via another Semitic language which had lost the distinction between laryngeals?


3-sh-q in Arabic also doesn't only have to do with love. The primary meaning which is to stick (also to bind or to conjoin) is still used, too.


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## fdb

Arabic ʻašiqa “to love” is cognate with Aramaic ʻsaq “to be occupied with s.th.” They are Semitic, not Iranian.


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## Abaye

Treaty said:


> Is it possible that Arabic _ʕ-š-q_ is related to Semitic _ḥ-š-q_ (to bind, associate > Heb. to love, desire), for example, loaned via another Semitic language which had lost the distinction between laryngeals?


A more probable Hebrew cognate to ʕ-š-q would be ʕ-s-q (mid letter is "sin"), which means to deal with, to have an affair, attested in the bible (Genesis 26:20).

-- added: seems it agrees with @fdb's comment about Aramaic.


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