# Mandarin: How hard is it?



## vachecow

Next year I was considering beginning to learn Mandarin Chinese because I had heard that it wil be the language of tomorrow.  I don't care if you think that is true or not, but do you think it would be wise for me, a person who only has experience in "Romance Languages", to try to learn this?


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## tintinnabulum_m

Well, it may not be fair for me, a native Mandarin Chinese speaker, to say much, but I would say it is a very interesting language. I cannot deny that it is pretty hard to learn since it is totally different from the language you know and it would take a pretty long time for one to get used to certain pronunciations, but it would worth the effort. I do know some people who were native English speakers and learned to speak perfect Mandarin in a English-speaking country, so I would say you do have a pretty good chance in learning well.  

Good luck

P.S. By the way, 新年快乐 (Happy New Year)


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## David

Having dabbled a bit with Mandarin, I have two suggestions.

1. Anybody who wants to learn _about_ Mandarin and other Chinese languages, not learn the languages, but understand how they are put together, why they are not, as commonly believed, entirely monosyllabic, why there are so many misconceptions about each written character´s having an intrinsic _meaning_ that could theoretically be applied to any language, etc., etc., should read John DeFrancis, _The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy_, which is a brilliant and entertaining book for any language lover.

2. In order to "break into" the Chinese tonal system, it is essential that you study the spoken language first...find a live teacher who can endure with you endless repetition drills, giving you real feedback and insisting on correct tones. A teacher who smiles and says "that´s fine," may be deluding you into thinking you are speaking comprehensible Chinese. The truth is that the grammar and vocabulary are not so difficult as you might imagine, once you realize that many Chinese words are really polysyllabic compounds (written with one character for each syllable, but really only meaningful when taken together as a whole), and once you get the hang of the tones.

Incidentally, Mandarin, I believe is a Portuguese word, referring to the class of officials who spoke the "official" Beijing (northern) dialect as part of their official authority, and who got to boss all the other people (mandar) around.

Dawei


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## rwillmsen

I've learnt quite a lot of Mandarin quite quickly, due to to the time honoured method of moving to the country where the language is spoken. As someone else suggested, you need to completely forget about trying to memorising characters and just concentrate on speaking. The grammer, from the English point of view, is not a huge challenge as I believe it is in Japanese - I generally find that the sentences I construct for myself are broadly grammatically correct because it's subject-verb object. Also, I can easily refer to the past by putting 'le' at the end of the sentence, which may not always be correct but is always understood. Also, personal pronouns and possessive pronouns are easy as pie - there is no difference between subject and object pronouns, and you can express a possessive by just putting 'de' after the 'possessor' wo (I) de shu - my book women (we) de shu - our book gou (dog) de shu - the dog's book. Also, there are no articles, so sometimes you can speak in a fairly 'pidgin' type way and find you've made a perfect sentence.

Obviously the tricky thing is the pronounciation, the tones and particularly the different vowel sounds. The difference between chi (eat) and che (vehicle) causes me lots of problems, because although the pinyin spelling is obviously clearly different, the sounds are very similar to my ears. Also there are lots of common words that you really have to constantly work at - yu, liu - the vowel sounds are often not at all easy to produce accurately. But there are also lots of times when the tones just don't seem to be used, which helps.

Having said all that though, I certainly wouldn't recommend coming here for any length of time. Despite all the hype you read in the papers, it really is a horrible place to live!


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## Silvia

rwillmsen said:
			
		

> The difference between chi (eat) and che (vehicle) causes me lots of problems, because although the pinyin spelling is obviously clearly different, the sounds are very similar to my ears. Also there are lots of common words that you really have to constantly work at - yu, liu - the vowel sounds are often not at all easy to produce accurately.


 That's what I heard too. Chinese language has a lot of different vowels, according to which a word can have a totally different meaning.

But I'm sure a native English speaker has an advantage on that 

Some info about Chinese pronunciation


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## vachecow

Thank you Silvia!  The web page said that that was for Peking Mandarin.....are there other kinds of Mandarin?


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## tintinnabulum_m

vachecow121 said:
			
		

> Thank you Silvia! The web page said that that was for Peking Mandarin.....are there other kinds of Mandarin?


The so-called Peking Mandarin is called the "usual language" in China, whereas Cantonese is called the "Guandong language". Peking Mandarin is the stardard sound one would hear on TV or radio. Apart from that, there are many Mandarin dialects, some (e.g. Shanghai dialect) sound totally different from the Peking Mandarin and a person unfamiliar with that specific dialect will not be able to understand. 

There is a common misunderstanding that all the people living in Peking (we call it Beijing nowadays) speaks perfect Peking Mandarin. In fact, Beijing people have a quite strong accent when speaking Mandarin, though can still be commonly understood. The city in China where nearly all people speaks the standard Peking Mandarin is Harbin, one of the major cities in the Manchurian region.


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## vachecow

Ok, so if I I could speak Peking Mandarin, what percentage of the Chinese population (roughly) could I talk to?


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## tintinnabulum_m

It is required to learn the Peking Mandarin aside from any dialects in China, this is even so for the people who speak cantonese. So it is guaranteed that you can talk to all of them. It is just that you cannot understand them talking in their own dialects.


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## Interventizio

Hi 
I've been meaning to learn chinese  for the same reasons described above: 'cause it appears to be the language of the future. So, if I got it right, I should concentrate on the spoken part, leaving out the nasty character thing. That's soothening. In fact, you can use the version written with letter, and be perfectly understood by the local people. How much is it going to take in order to master a simple conversation? Anyone willing to respond?
Thank u.


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## ling0127

vachecow121 said:
			
		

> Thank you Silvia! The web page said that that was for Peking Mandarin.....are there other kinds of Mandarin?


Ni hao!

Had the chance to study the Mandarin Chinese in Taiwan and they speak the language in a way different from those who speak the Chinese in the Mainland...I don't know if there are other kinds of Mandarin 'tho....

My teacher (native Taiwanese) said those who speak Chinese from the Mainland has a distinct "-er" at the end, to some of their words like, when you say 'here' : in Taiwan, they say "zhe li" and in China, they say "zher"...or when you say 'where?' : in Taiwan, we say "dzai na li"? in China, they say "dzai nar"?


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## lizy

I learnt some Mandarin last spring with a Chinese woman; we concentrated mainly on the speaking part, but I wanted to do some writing as well. I practised quite a lot on my own and I got to master several hundred characters in a few months. Now, even if don't know how to pronounce some words, I can understand many headlines when I see a Chinese newspaper. I think that's useful too.


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## tintinnabulum_m

Interventizio said:
			
		

> Hi
> So, if I got it right, I should concentrate on the spoken part, leaving out the nasty character thing. That's soothening. In fact, you can use the version written with letter, and be perfectly understood by the local people.


 
It is true that you should concentrate on the spoken part and leaving out the nasty character thing. And it is also true that the version written with letter can be understood by the local people. But it would be really confusion and can be misleading. There are a lot of words that have the same sound or the letter form but totally different meanings. In fact, I found that it is a time-consuming process to figure out the meanings if they are written in the letter form.


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## tintinnabulum_m

Em... that is a tough question. I have never learned Chinese as a second language. But from my experience of learning a second and a third language, I would say you should start from listening and then proceed to speaking. If you are trying to find listening materials, try the Chinese shows on TV, especially those children's programs. I know, they are not exciting, but they pronounce each sound clearly and accurately, and the most important of all, slowly, making them the best for language learners. For speaking, you should always seek the help of native Chinese speakers. I am sure you can find some around you. The keypoint there is to never feel embarrassed. Reading and writing is the hard part, especially for the Chinese language. If you look carefully, you will find many Chinese word looks like the meanings they have; and there are some words that are the combination of two parts, one part describing its meaning and the other part describing its sound. Always take note of those to help you remember. Besides that, I am sure there are more hints posted somewhere in the cyberspace. 
I am sorry that I cannot help much. Good luck to you!


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## JJchang

tintinnabulum_m said:
			
		

> If you are trying to find listening materials, try the Chinese shows on TV, especially those children's programs. I know, they are not exciting, but they pronounce each sound clearly and accurately, and the most important of all, slowly, making them the best for language learners.



Actually the Chinese learning webpage by BBC is pretty good. They use .rm file to repeat some phrases, and you can also read those Chinese characters in the video clips. 

I really admire those people who try to learn Chinese, 'cos I read those Chinese grammar books for English students before, and there's no way I would remember those rules. (When to use 了 at the end of a phrase, when to use 子 at the end of the noun, all the sudden these basic stuffs become rocket science) Good luck.


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## csisfun

For one, I find Chinese a really difficult language to learn. Especially the words! Chinese is more or less my mother tongue, with English being my first language  .

I find it very, very hard to read the newspaper, but much easier to watch Chinese programming and the radio in Chinese. There really is a difference in Chinese and other languages that use alphabats- that is, the characters in Chinese do NOT have any links to the pronounciation.

There are differences in Chinese too! It's like Spain's spanish and Latin American Spanish. There are differences, but you will be able to be understood whichever version you learn.

Gong xi fa cai!!!
I wish you all a prosperous Chinese New Year! Now, where's my hongbao?


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## JJchang

csisfun said:
			
		

> that is, the characters in Chinese do NOT have any links to the pronounciation.



I definitely have to disagree with you here. Most of the time Chinese characters have some link to their pronounciation, it is even more so in simplified Chinese. There is an old rule of guessing the pronunciation of a new word, something like "read the non-radical part if the word has two parts, otherwise read the middle part". (有邊讀邊, 沒邊讀中間 ), you have around 80% chance getting the pronunciation right. 
Let's take the "hong" word you used in "hong bao", "hong" has the part of "gong" 工, and most of the words having this part with other radicals have a similar sound to gong, like gan, gong, hong. they will never end like ii or ee. I know it's vague, but it's just some indication...


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## csisfun

JJchang said:
			
		

> I definitely have to disagree with you here. Most of the time Chinese characters have some link to their pronounciation, it is even more so in simplified Chinese. There is an old rule of guessing the pronunciation of a new words, something like "read the non-radical part if the word has two parts, otherwise read the middle part". (有邊讀邊, 沒邊讀中間 ), you have around 80% chance getting the pronunciation right.
> Let's take the "hong" word you used in "hong bao", "hong" has the part of "gong" 工, and most of the words having this part with other radicals have a similar sound to gong, like gan, gong, hong. they will never end like ii or ee. I know it's vague, but it's just some indication...



Yes, that's a good point. I missed out on it.


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## ZhenDaoCreditsWriters

Wow, there's a lot of good advice here already!  

 I posted somewhere else the steps I went through in learning basic Chinese (I still think I'm learning basic Chinese after two years, and I live here).

 I wouldn't completely emphasize the speaking as they are saying. Since you've learned other languages, you have two advantages:
 1. your thinking isn't limited to direct, literal translation, and
 2. you can set clear goals for yourself. 

I've seen a lot of foreigners come here, study Chinese for six months and announce they know Chinese. I can't understand some of what they say, and I can see my Taiwanese friends making a really concentrated effort with them. Speaking well is important, but that said, you also need to read. 

 Before organizing your Chinese learning, consider:
 A. What are your longterm goals?
 B. What is your learning style?
 C. How much time can you devote?

A. If your longterm goal is to be able to impress friends in a restaurant, then you have some very select vocabulary to learn. Give yourself a few months of practice with a native Mandarin speaker (any Mandarin but no other dialect) and you should be able to speak well enough. 

If your longterm goal is fluency, then I strongly recommend going back to basics. Learn ㄅㄆㄇㄈby finding someone who knows what the symbols are. I can help you a little here, but you will eventually need a native speaker to teach you to hear the sounds. All I can do is type the sounds. 

Next, also take a good look and the different pinyin systems ~ there are two that are highly popular. Make sure you can read all three spelling systems (I think they're called ㄅㄆㄇㄈ, pinyin and Wade-Giles, but perhaps someone can correct me on that?)

This phase is the same as an infant learning their ABCs. You can practice your tones at the same time. If you want to be fluent in Mandarin, you need to go through this phase. Otherwise you wind up developing, practicing and perfecting a strong "foreigner" accent that will impede your communication later. I've seen people try to learn the tones later, after developing their vocabulary ~ it's doesn't work.

B. Your learning style can be used to make learning Chinese fun for you. If you're a very visual person, you'll probably learn to read quickly. If you like drawing, you'll probably like writing Chinese. If you like listening, you'll pick up the alphabet and tones quickly, and then your pronunciation will probably be good. 

The only thing that I think makes Chinese a little harder than a European language is that every word requires an extra piece of information that we aren't used to thinking about. Here's what I mean:

 From one Eurpopean language to another (those using the same alphabet), when you learn a knew word you need to know:
 i. how to say it
 ii. what it means
 iii. how to spell it
 iv. how to use it in a sentence

 From a European language to Chinese, you need to know:
 i. how to say it
  ii. what it means
  iii. how to spell it in a pronunciation alphabet (ㄅㄆㄇㄈ, etc)
 iv. which pretty picture it is
  v. how to use it in a sentence

When you've mastered (iii), then (i) and (iii) are the same thing, which is why I recommend starting with the pronunciation alphabet and other systems. 

 A note on "Beijing Mandarin", "Mandarin" and other dialects:
Written Chinese is changing. Spoken Chinese is changing. Mandarin speakers tend to understand each other even when they sound a little different from each other. The different sounds are accents, not new dialects. Some parts of China are writing new Chinese characters and some parts are using traditional Chinese characters. The characters are similar pictures, but the new ones are less complicated. 

I'd suggest finding a Mandarin instructor you like. Great advice from someone who wrote earlier: find a person who is picky and who corrects you. Don't worry too much which system they use as long as it is Mandarin. 
 Let me know if you'd like a copy of ㄅㄆㄇㄈ <-> broadcast accent English. 

 Ciao,
 Zhen


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## MingRaymond

Hi Zhen,

I don't think Mandarin learners need to learn all of the pinyin systems. One is enough. I myself only know the pinyin system used in Mainland China.(That means hanyu pinyin). Dictionaries with both (bopomofo and hanyu pinyin)are easier to find.

Ming


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## Mutichou

Hello,
I started learning Mandarin Chinese this year, and it's quite difficult, since it's totally different from European languages. Grammar is pretty easy, but pronunciation is difficult: for example, I can't hear the difference between "cai" and "zai", and I hardly recognize tones when the teacher speaks.
Writing is obviously also difficult; I write hànzì several times to learn them.

And I only use hanyu pinyin.


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## ZhenDaoCreditsWriters

Hi, 

Why learn two pinyin systems from the perspective of a person who doesn't like pinyin as much as ㄅㄆㄇㄈ? 

Taipei and the surrounding area is labeled in two pinyin systems. It takes new residents a while to find out that Chung Hwa = Zhonghua, for example.

Residents who read both systems stand a better chance of not getting lost. But that's the only reason I can think of  

Zhen


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## BaraniskoDyskoteka

Maybe it is not so hard as it may seem...
because complicated characters consist of "radicals" like for example:
氵　口．．．．．马
吗- consist of 马and 口
sometimes character is "telling" prnounciation... sometimes is logic...
so it is interesting to learn....
grammar is different from Indoeuropean languages...
but not so hard....
maybe problem with "particles" ......
but.... it is said that this grammar is not hard... only different...


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

After struggling through an undergraduate major in Chinese, I'll offer my two cents on the subject.

First of all, Chinese grammar is simple - relentlessly so.  If you've only learned European languages you'll find the sheer simplicity to be distracting in its own right.

This does not disguise the fact that at a deeper level the grammar is very different than English.  At first blush, it doesn't appear to be so; the word order is roughly the same - most of the time.  However, internalizing what the differences in word order and particle usage actually mean in context is a bit of a sea change for a westerner.  Compared to western languages, Chinese has almost a telegraphic quality, and it takes a while to appreciate the subtleties.

Secondly, you have absolutely no signposts to help you with vocabulary.  If you were learning French or Spanish, or even Russian, you could count on having a significant of words from the same roots as in English.  There is no such thing in Mandarin Chinese - you can probably count the number of foreign loan words in on one hand.  And unlike Arabic, which works on a somewhat logical system of word roots, there is no discernable connection between families of words in spoken Chinese.  Word etymology is really a field of endeavor suited to the written language rather than the spoken language when dealing with Chinese.

Thirdly, and related to the problem of learning vocabulary, there is the effort involved in learning the writing system.  You will have to study Chinese for at least two years, maybe three, before you can manage a newspaper.  And this is without even going into the subtleties of the traditional literary language, which will require another year or two.

On the other hand, I disagree with some of the commenters here that the pronunciation is difficult; I think it is basically quite easy.  Don't worry about the tones - you'll get used to them before you know it, as long as you have material to listen to or a native teacher.  

As for the benefits...being able to read Laozi and Li Bai in the original was worth it!


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