# Serbian: (BCS) Putujem/Krećem



## Roxannah_

Hi everyone, this one is simple (not for me). What's the difference?


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## phosphore

Well, putovati means to travel while kretati means to set off.

On često putuje. He travels a lot.
Putujemo već sedam sati. We've been travelling for seven hours now.

Kad krećemo? (kretati) or Kad ćemo da krenemo? (krenuti) When are we setting off?
Autobus kreće za Beograd. The bus is setting off for Belgrade.


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## Roxannah_

I understand. Is it used much? Like for instance:
*Krećem ujutro vrlo rano*. Would you say it like that?

It this equivalent to:
*Idem *ujutro vrlo rano? or *Putujem* ujutro vrlo rano? 

Does "kretati" imply I'm going somewhere by car or by bus for instance, or does it have a broader meaning like "ići"?

I do understand the meaning of "ići" and the meaning of "putuvati", I'm trying to grasp the meaning of "kretati" and the context it is used in.


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## phosphore

Roxannah_ said:


> I understand. Is it used much? Like for instance:
> *Krećem ujutro vrlo rano*. Would you say it like that?
> 
> I would.
> 
> It this equivalent to:
> *Idem *ujutro vrlo rano? or *Putujem* ujutro vrlo rano?
> 
> Only partly. Krenuti (perfective), kretati (imperfective) mean to set onself in motion, to start on a journey. This component of starting some kind of motion is obligatory. Ići (imperfective, no aspectual counterpart) means simply to go. Putovati (imperfective, no aspectual counterpart) means to travel away from or back home. This component of being on a trip is obligatory.
> 
> Now back to your examples, is it about setting off on a trip? Then krećem and putujem both sound equally idiomatic and are synonymic. Idem not so much, but it's acceptable. Or is it about going to see a doctor? Then krećem and idem sound good but don't quite have the same meaning, krećem means that I'm leaving very early in the morning (but doesn't say when I'll be there, if he's a few hours away from my home I might be there only in the afternoon), while idem means that I'm going to see him or that I actually have an appointment. Putovati would be unacceptable here. Or is it about doing some work, like sorting out a pile of paperwork? Then only krećem would be acceptable.
> 
> Does "kretati" imply I'm going somewhere by car or by bus for instance, or does it have a broader meaning like "ići"?
> 
> No. But putovati does somehow imply travelling by some kind of transport.
> 
> I do understand the meaning of "ići" and the meaning of "putuvati", I'm trying to grasp the meaning of "kretati" and the context it is used in.


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## Ante Portas

Well, 
_krećem_ - means to start anything, including moving or traveling
_idem_ - means _I am going (to)_
_putujem_ - means just traveling
_putujem ujutru vrlo rano_ is not quite correct, because _ujutru vrlo rano_ implies time when traveling just begins, so I can't recommend it.


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## phosphore

Ante Portas said:


> _putujem ujutru vrlo rano_ is not quite correct, because _ujutru vrlo rano_ implies time when traveling just begins, so I can't recommend it.


 
I don't quite understand your argument?


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## Ante Portas

phosphore said:


> I don't quite understand your argument?


_Ujutro vrlo rano_ is just a moment. It is too short period for _putovanje_. You can't say, for instance, _Putujem u osam sati_, because _putovanje_ implies certain duration.


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## Duya

Ante Portas said:


> _Ujutro vrlo rano_ is just a moment. It is too short period for _putovanje_. You can't say, for instance, _Putujem u osam sati_, because _putovanje_ implies certain duration.



Well, that's a... _rational_ explanation, but language is often irrational. _Putujem u osam sati_ sounds perfectly natural to me, although I agree it isn't 100% logical. 

The "logical" verb here is _otputovati, _but this sentence uses "near-future present", and it basically requires an imperfective verb. Since _otputovati _does not have an imperfective form, _putovati_ is substituted, with the meaning "to start traveling". 

If you used the future tense instead, I agree that

_*Putovaću sutra u osam sati_.

sounds fairly odd, and instead

_Otputovaću sutra u osam sati_.

should be used. However, it doesn't have exactly the same connotation: _"Putujem sutra u osam_" emphasises that I will start traveling and *continue* traveling (for the whole day, possibly).


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## phosphore

Ante Portas said:


> _Ujutro vrlo rano_ is just a moment. It is too short period for _putovanje_. You can't say, for instance, _Putujem u osam sati_, because _putovanje_ implies certain duration.


 
Kretanje also implies a certain duration, but you said nothing about krećem. The truth is that we use the present tense of imperfective verbs to express the (near) future.

Kad krećeš? Krećem sutra ujutro.
Kad putuješ? Putujem sutra ujutro.
Polazimo sutra vrlo rano ujutro.
Dolaze sutra uveče u osam sati.


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## Ante Portas

Duya said:


> Well, that's a... _rational_ explanation, but language is often irrational. _Putujem u osam sati_ sounds perfectly natural to me, although I agree it isn't 100% logical...


What can I say? It is your choice. Montenegrin is more regular than other _our_ languages and We can't use so strange sentence. Even more, We rather say _Idem na put_ instead of _Putujem_, but again not with _u osam sati_.



phosphore said:


> Kretanje also implies a certain duration, but you said nothing about krećem. The truth is that we use the present tense of imperfective verbs to express the (near) future.
> 
> Kad krećeš? Krećem sutra ujutro.
> Kad putuješ? Putujem sutra ujutro.
> Polazimo sutra vrlo rano ujutro.
> Dolaze sutra uveče u osam sati.


I am talking just about verb _putovati_. Problem is not present but the verb itself. We can say _
- Putujem $utra_, _
- Putujem $utra ujutro_ - is on an edge of regularity, but _
- Putujem u osam sati_ - is simply impossible. 
Dialog :
- _Kad putuješ?_
- _$utra._
- _U koliko sati (krećeš!_ is implied_)?_
But more Montenegrin would be:
- Kad ćeš na put?
- $utra.
- U koja doba (krećeš!)?


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## Orlin

Ante Portas said:


> What can I say? It is your choice. Montenegrin is more regular than other _our_ languages and We can't use so strange sentence. Even more, We rather say _Idem na put_ instead of _Putujem_, but again not with _u osam sati_.
> 
> 
> I am talking just about verb _putovati_. Problem is not present but the verb itself. We can say
> _- Putujem $utra_,
> _- Putujem $utra ujutro_ - is on an edge of regularity, but
> _- Putujem u osam sati_ - is simply impossible.
> Dialog :
> - _Kad putuješ?_
> - _$utra._
> - _U koliko sati (krećeš!_ is implied_)?_
> But more Montenegrin would be:
> - Kad ćeš na put?
> - $utra.
> - U koja doba (krećeš!)?


 
Izvinjavam se za off-topic i bez uvrede, Ante Portas, kakvo "čudno" slovo se pojavilo u reči "sutra" (ili se to kod vas piše drugačije)? Ili možda vi tako mnogo volite dolare?! (Verujte mi ili ne, no ja vidim simbole dolara i uz to čak *4* puta.)


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## phosphore

You're making assumptions based only on your personal feeling in spite of the real usage, and, moreover, you're speaking on the behalf of a whole linguistic community. Maybe this particular grammatical construction is not acceptable in your dialect after all, I couldn't know, but you can't say it's not correct, because, as far as I know, it hasn't been proscribed, and, more importantly, it's used regularly.

Skupština zaseda u četvrtak.
Zakon sutra stupa na snagu.
Časovi počinju u osam ujutro.
Odgovaram geografiju sutra u osam sati ujutro.

In all four examples you have an imperfective verb used in the present tense with an adverbial to express the future. Even if you could argue that the first three examples are different from the example in question in this or that respect, I see no difference whatsoever with the last example.



Ante Portas said:


> - _Kad putuješ?_
> - _$utra._
> - _U koliko sati (krećeš!_ is implied_)?_


 
You're right only in the respect that krećeš na put and putuješ in this context are synonymic. There is no other reason to think that exactly krećeš is implied in this kind of sentence.



Orlin said:


> Izvinjavam se za off-topic i bez uvrede, Ante Portas, kakvo "čudno" slovo se pojavilo u reči "sutra"


 
I assume it stands for the letter <ś>.


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## Orlin

phosphore said:


> I assume it stands for the letter <ś>.


 
Ja sam skoro 100% siguran da je tako, znam o ovom crnogorskom slovu, ali s druge strane ja vidim ispravno slovo ś (npr. u poljskom) i ne znam gde je problem.


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## Duya

Ante Portas said:


> What can I say? It is your choice. Montenegrin is more regular than other _our_ languages and We can't use so strange sentence.



These folks are not proper Montenegrins according to your criteria, I guess:

http://www.dan.co.me/?nivo=3&rubrika=Sport&datum=2010-04-16&clanak=227475
Montenegrin basketball player Zarija Pavićević:
"U Španiju putujem 30. aprila i ostaću u  Gimnastiku dva mjeseca. " 

http://www.montenews.me/vijesti/zabava/43313.html
Tamara Đučić (23), Montenegrin entry on the Beauty of The  World contest:
"Putujem 22. aprila za Zagreb, zatim u Moskvu, pa u  Kinu"


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## DenisBiH

Not to offend anyone, but the OP's original question was about Serbian, not Montenegrin. As for Bosnian, I'd have to agree with phosphore and Duya.


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## Roxannah_

Hey all, thanks for your input. I probably should've explained myself better and the context in which my doubts arose.

I was doing a "fill in the blanks" sort of exercise and the example was "*Putujem/Krećem ujutro vrlo rano*". The missing word was actually "ujutro" which I had no problems with, but I saw putujem/krećem and I wasn't sure if I agreed with the slash after I checked "kretati" in the dictionary (it said ~ moving, and that didn't really make things clearer for me). So I was trying to understand the use of "kretati/krenuti" as opposed to the use of "putovati", or if they are synonyms as the slash implies.

As for perfective and imperfective verbs it's something I've only recently started to work on and while I do understand the "grammatical explanation" I lack practice, so that is still an issue for me and I'm not quite getting into that yet. The fact is this was the example I was presented with and my doubt refered to the usaged to "kretati/krenuti" (I assume perfective and imperfective verbs have the same meaning???) I am happy to know the present is used to refer to a near future because it is the same in my native language.

In any case I hope I got the meaning of "kretati" right. I suppose it's closer to "leaving", in the sense of "moving" (then the dictionary was right after all ). If the use of "putovati" is wrong in this sentence, I wash my hands, that was the sentence given to me  But now I'm curious to know if it is indeed the wrong verb or if it's just acceptable or if there is a more common way to say the same thing. I lost myself a bit in the arguments. Thanks!


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## sokol

Moderator note:

I would like to point out that it is _*very*_ important, from the point of view of learners of the language, to not mix varieties - this is confusing for learners. 

My teacher of Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin - then still called "Serbo-Croatian" - used to say "Ne mješajte!" (pravilno "miješajte", of course ;-), and I think this is good advice.

Of course it is still perfectly _*acceptable, relevant*_ and also _*very much appreciated*_ when native speakers of other varieties than Serbian contribute in a thread titled "Serbian". But please do so in a way which is not confusing for learners. 

I would also like to point out that the new Montenegrin spelling (with new letters, /ś/ being one of them) so far has not been adopted by the Montenegrin government.
As long as this is not the case we should treat "Montenegrin" as a neutral term for the language used by Montenegrin nationals, be it written in the "traditional" spelling or in the (not yet authorised) "new" spelling. We can discuss this in a new thread if you wish, but please note that comments on Montenegrin are off-topic in this thread.

Note, I will have to leave the off-topic posts above in the thread as I would have to snip bits here and there which would look awkward when reading the thread in retrospective; but please do not reply to the off-topic posts above.

Thank you!
Cheers
sokol
Moderator


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## PajaritoSerbio

Roxannah_ said:


> I was doing a "fill in the blanks" sort of exercise and the example was "*Putujem/Krećem ujutro vrlo rano*". The missing word was actually "ujutro" which I had no problems with, but I saw putujem/krećem and I wasn't sure if I agreed with the slash after I checked "kretati" in the dictionary (it said ~ moving, and that didn't really make things clearer for me). So I was trying to understand the use of "kretati/krenuti" as opposed to the use of "putovati", or if they are synonyms as the slash implies.
> 
> As for perfective and imperfective verbs it's something I've only recently started to work on and while I do understand the "grammatical explanation" I lack practice, so that is still an issue for me and I'm not quite getting into that yet. The fact is this was the example I was presented with and my doubt refered to the usaged to "kretati/krenuti" (I assume perfective and imperfective verbs have the same meaning???) I am happy to know the present is used to refer to a near future because it is the same in my native language.
> 
> In any case I hope I got the meaning of "kretati" right. I suppose it's closer to "leaving", in the sense of "moving" (then the dictionary was right after all ). If the use of "putovati" is wrong in this sentence, I wash my hands, that was the sentence given to me  But now I'm curious to know if it is indeed the wrong verb or if it's just acceptable or if there is a more common way to say the same thing. I lost myself a bit in the arguments. Thanks!



Hello 
In the mentioned example, you can use synonym "poći" for "krenuti" (or "polaziti" for "kretati"), if that helps you understand the difference.  
It would look like 
"Polazim ujutro vrlo rano", or more colloquial "Polazim vrlo rano ujutro". What puzzles me is the use of word "ujutro" because "vrlo rano" already has the meaning that something is happening in the morning. So, it could be said "Krećem/putujem ujutro" or "Krećem/putujem vrlo rano", for the sake of linguistic "economy". 

I hope that helped a bit.


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## Roxannah_

Thanks PajaritoSerbio, so "polaziti" is a synonym of "kretati"? If it is then yes that is the meaning I was giving to "kretati/krenuti" 
2
I was under the impression "vrlo rano" meant "very early" regardless of the time of the day. Can't I say "*krećem vrlo rano popodne"* (popodne/u podne I'm not sure..) or "*krećem vrlo rano uveče*"?


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## PajaritoSerbio

Roxannah_ said:


> Thanks PajaritoSerbio, so "polaziti" is a synonym of "kretati"? If it is then yes that is the meaning I was giving to "kretati/krenuti"
> 2
> I was under the impression "vrlo rano" meant "very early" regardless of the time of the day. Can't I say "*krećem vrlo rano popodne"* (popodne/u podne I'm not sure..) or "*krećem vrlo rano uveče*"?


Welcome 

-Yes, in most cases it is.
-I know a lot of people who say it both ways, so you won't be wrong if you say it like that, too. Language is a living thins so, the rules written in books are often changed in practice.


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