# Separate / distinguish / differ



## ThomasK

Gavril's question reminded me of these three verbs. is there any resemblance in your language? 

In Dutch there is: 
- to separate = *scheiden*
- to distinguish = o*nderscheiden (*sub-separate)
- to differ = *verschillen *(but different might be translated as *verscheidene*, though the meaning is more 'several' whereas strictly speaking it contains 'scheiden' and a perfective-pejorative prefix, maybe something like 'totally different')...


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## apmoy70

Hi TK,

In Greek:


To separate: *«Διαχωρίζω»* [ði.axo'rizo] < Classical v. *«διαχωρίζω» dĭăkʰōrízō* --> _to separate_ < compound; prefix, preposition and adv. *«διὰ» dià* --> _in two, apart, through_ (PIE *dis-, _apart_) + Classical v. *«χωρίζω» kʰōrízō* --> _to part, depart_ (with uncertain etymology, from possible PIE root *ǵʰeh₁-, _to leave behind_).   


To distinguish: *«Διακρίνω»* [ði.a'krino] < Classical v. *«διακρίνω» dĭăkrínō* --> _to separate, distinguish_ < compound; prefix, preposition and adv. *«διὰ» dià* --> _in two, apart, through_ (PIE *dis-, _apart_) + Classical v. *«κρίνω» krínō* --> _to separate, choose, select, decide, judge, condemn, accuse, apply_ (PIE *kre(h₁)-i-, _to separate, distinguish_ cf Lat. cerndre, _to select, discern, sieve_).


To differ: *«Διαφέρω»* [ði.a'fero] < Classical v. *«διαφέρω» dĭăpʰérō* --> _to differ_ < compound; prefix, preposition and adv. *«διὰ» dià* --> _in two, apart, through_ (PIE *dis-, _apart_) + Classical v. *«φέρω» pʰérō* --> _to bear, endure, carry off, bring away, provide, reach, move along_ (PIE *bʰer-, _to bear, carry_ cf Skt. भरति (bharati), _to bear, carry_; Lat. ferre, _to bear, carry_).


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## Gavril

ThomasK said:


> In Dutch there is:
> - to separate = *scheiden*
> - to distinguish = o*nderscheiden (*sub-separate)
> - to differ = *verschillen *(but different might be translated as *verscheidene*, though the meaning is more 'several' whereas strictly speaking it contains 'scheiden' and a perfective-pejorative prefix, maybe something like 'totally different')...



Other English terms:

to separate:_ to sunder _(now very archaic sounding)
to distinguish (between two or more things): _to tell apart_


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## ThomasK

Very interesting addition: this  'sunder' (and the 'apart' concept) is recognizable in 'bijzonder' (special, part-icular, peculiar), and in 'uitzondering' (ex-ception), 'afzondering' (isolation), etc. in Dutch, and is even more common in German: 'Sondermassnahmen', 'Sonderfall', ... (special measures, special case), 'besonder' (particular), etc.

Something I happen to find out today, just this morning: 'skill' has to do with separating as well, and thus is related with 'verschillen' in Dutch... I am quite surprised!


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## arielipi

Hebrew:
separate - להפריד lehafrid, root f-r-d. להבדיל lehavdil root b/v-d-l
distinguish - להבחין lehavkhin, root b/v-kh-n (it inherently is as to tell apart). להבדיל lehavdil root b/v-d-l to distinguish. לאפין le'afyen root '-f-y-n (i think) to categorize, ליחד leyakhed (although it would be very rare) root y-kh-d to unique-ify, לסוג lesaveg root s-v-g to identify-in-faction (category) 
differ - להבדיל lehavdil root b/v-d-l


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## Saluton

Russian:
to separate - *отделять *(otde'lyat), *разделять* (razde'lyat), from *делить* (de'lit) - 'to divide'
to distinguish - *отличать* (otli'chat), *различать* (razli'chat), from *лик* (lik), *лицо* (li'tso) - 'face', i.e. 'to tell faces apart', so to say
to differ - *отличаться* (otli'chatsa), *различаться* (razli'chatsa), the same as above + a reflexive suffix


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## ThomasK

Is there a common root in those words, Saluton? I can see the _raz_-, which is something like 'dis-' or 'se-', I suppose, but  is there a link between the 'li''s in (a) and (b)? 

Just by the way: after the 'skill' find in #4 I did some more research, and I am astonished about the number of words in English and Germanic referring to separating/ cutting: _shear, shed, sunder, sleave, shift, try _(!) and then lots of Latin derivations based on _dis_- and on _se_-, _cern/cret_, plus the Greek 'schizo'. It seems to be a very important cultural concept, just like covering... Strangely enough sorting has to do with lining up and _category _has nothing to do with groups as such, so I read: 



> from _kategorein _"to speak against; to accuse, assert, predicate," from _kata _"down to" (or perhaps "against;" see cata-) + _agoreuein _"to harangue, to declaim (in the assembly)," from agora "public assembly" (see agora). Original sense of "accuse" weakened to "assert, name" by the time Aristotle applied kategoria to his 10 classes of things that can be named.


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## Saluton

Ot- and raz- are prefixes that imply 'from' (≈ 'to divide/tell smth. from smth.') and 'apart' (≈ 'to divide/tell smth. and smth. apart'), respectively. *Делить* and *лицо* have different roots, de- is not a prefix in Russian.


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## AutumnOwl

*Swedish: *
_Skilja_ - separate 
_Avskilja _- separate, divide
_Urskilja_ - distinguish
_Skilja sig åt_ - differ
_Skilja sig från_ - differ from
_Frånskilja_ - separate from something, for example a work; or to divorce

_Skilja sig_ - to divorce; _skilsmässa _- a divorce


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## ThomasK

The *skil*- root is distinctly present in all three then, one I recognize from Dutch *verschillen*, 'differ', and the English *skill*, which I had never realised... I had not been aware of that root, but most interesting!


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## bibax

Czech:

to separate: *rozděliti, odděliti* (prefix roz-/od- = dis-/de-; root děl- = part, cf. German der Teil, zerteilen);

to distinguish: *rozlišiti, odlišiti* < rozličný (= various, sundry, i.e. of various faces) < líce (= cheek) > obličej (= face);

to differ: *lišiti se, odlišovati se* (reflexive verbs); *různiti se* < různý (= different) < prefix roz- (dis-);


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## mataripis

Tagalog: 1.) To separate- humiwalay, (hiwalay) or Ibukod/bumukod     2.) To distinguish- kilalanin/kumilala, sumuri/masuri    3.) To differ- makilalang naiiba or alamin ang naiiba or ibahin, but differentiate is " anong naiiba".


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## ThomasK

So no similarity at all ? Or is there a common root like 'kila'?


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## mataripis

No similarity


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## ThomasK

I now realize there are a lot of common things like the prefix (or word) 'out', 'from', 'detached'...


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## Messquito

In Chinese:
- to separate = *分開，分割，分離，分散......*
- to distinguish = *分辨，區分，分別，分出...*
- to differ = *分歧...*


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## ger4

German:
- to separate: _trennen, abtrennen, teilen, abteilen, zerteilen, unterteilen, lösen, sich lösen, sich ablösen_
- to distinguish: _unterscheiden, differenzieren, auseinanderhalten_
- to differ: _sich unterscheiden, voneinander abweichen_

_trennen _('to separate')
_abtrennen < ab _('off')_ + trennen
lösen _('to loosen, to detach, to break off, to peel, ...')
_sich lösen < sich _(reflexive pronoun)_ + lösen
sich ablösen < sich + ab- _('off')_ + lösen
teilen < Teil _('part')_ + -en _(verbal infinitive suffix)
_abteilen < ab- _('off')_ + teilen
zerteilen < zer- _(~ 'into pieces', perhaps similar to roz- in Czech)_ + teilen
unterteilen < unter- _(~'sub-' as in 'subdivision')_ + teilen
unterscheiden < unter- _(as above)_ + __scheiden_ (~ 'to separate')
_sich unterscheiden < sich _(reflexive pronoun, making the verb intransitive)_ + unterscheiden
auseinanderhalten < auseinander _('apart')_ < aus- _('out of')_ + einander _('each other')_ + halten _('to hold')
_voneinander abweichen < von- _('of')_ + einander _('each other')_ + ab- _('off')_ + weichen _(~'to yield, to give way')


bibax said:


> to separate: *rozděliti, odděliti* (prefix roz-/od- = dis-/de-; root děl- = part, cf. German der Teil, zerteilen)


 
(edit: added _lösen, sich lösen, sich ablösen_)


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## ThomasK

@holger: perfect information. I am just a little amazed that you do not even mention _scheiden_ as such. --- As for me _teilen_ fits less into this context, because I consider _Teil_ as something that can be perceived without even actively "parting" something, and because our _delen_ is more often sharing than parting (for which we need a prefix, I think: _opdelen, verdelen_, etc.) . But of course, this is based on my knowledge of Dutch and to some extent German, and it might be personal... I suddenly realized we have an etymologically related equivalent of _trennen_ as _tornen, _referring to lossening seams... _(Thanks for the DWDS link by the way; I once bumped into it, but now I can use it again...)_

@Messquito: I can see one ideogramme return, I suppose one referring to knife or cutting (with the power symbol below and another above)...


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## Armas

Finnish

separate = erottaa, erotella
distinguish = erottaa
differ = erota, poiketa (poiketa also means to deviate, diverge)


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## ThomasK

May I ask: is _erottaa_ kind-of a causative form of _erota_? Something like 'to make differ' (to make a difference)? And is there some way of explaining the suffix -_ella_ (as opposed to -_taa-)_?


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## momai

Arabic :

to separate  : "faSala فصل"  sometimes "in-faSala"  (its reflexive form) root f-S-l.

to distinguish : "mayyaza ميّز"  to confer distinction on something or someone ,   root m-y-z.

to differ  : "ikhtalafa اختلف"  to disagree   ,root kh-l-f.


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## Armas

ThomasK said:


> May I ask: is _erottaa_ kind-of a causative form of _erota_? Something like 'to make differ' (to make a difference)? And is there some way of explaining the suffix -_ella_ (as opposed to -_taa-)_?



Yes erottaa is a causative of erota, -(e)lla is a frequentative suffix:

erota = 1 to separate (intrans.) 2 to resign, to quit (a job) 3 to divorce 4 to differ, be different
causative of erota: erottaa = 1 to separate (trans.) 2 to fire (from a job) 3 to distinguish
frequentative of erottaa: erotella = to separate


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## ThomasK

^Great information!


momai said:


> Arabic :
> to separate  : "faSala فصل"  sometimes "in-faSala"  (its reflexive form) root f-S-l.
> to distinguish : "mayyaza ميّز"  to confer distinction on something or someone ,   root m-y-z.
> to differ  : "ikhtalafa اختلف"  to disagree   ,root kh-l-f.


So no etymological links at all then... Funny: Google T mentions "season" for /fasala/...


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## momai

> So no etymological links at all then... Funny: Google T mentions "season" for /fasala/...


It's faSl (a season ) ,they both are written the same but have different pronunciation .
A season is a separation in Arabic


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## ger4

@ThomasK I didn't think of 'un-prefixed' _scheiden_ as it is rarely used as such in modern day German - but of course its original meaning must have been something like 'to separate' and it still appears in some expressions like _aus dem Dienst_ _scheiden_ ('to retire from work', lit. ~ 'to separate out of service'), _aus dem Leben scheiden_ (a very formal expression for 'to die', lit. ~ 'to separate out of life') and in the expression _sich scheiden lassen _('to get divorced', lit. ~ 'to let oneselves be separated'). Looking up the Dutch verb _scheiden_ in a Dutch-German dictionary I found that it is often translated as _trennen _(_die begrippen zijn niet scherp van elkaar te scheiden - die Begriffe lassen sich nicht klar voneinander trennen), _sometimes _teilen_ (and sometimes _sich scheiden_ even though its use is quite restricted nowadays). Another possible translation is _sich (ab)lösen_: _de bast scheidde zich van de boom - die Borke löste sich vom Baum ab_ ~ 'the bark came (peeled?) off the tree'. - So _(sich) (ab)lösen_ might join the list as well...

As for _teilen_, in German it can mean either 'to share' or 'to separate' - or both (sharing food can involve separating the available food into portions...) but it seems to be used more frequently than Dutch _delen_ (at least according to this dictionary entry), as in the example _da teilen sich die Ansichten_ - _op dat punt lopen de meningen uiteen_ (~ 'that's where the opinions differ').


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## kaverison

Tamil:
separate - thani, taniyaaga
separate (v) - piri, piritthidu, thani thani yaakku
differ (v) - veerupadu, veerupadutthu (a sound as in cut)
difference - veerupaadu (notice the aa sound, as in father).
distinguish - pakutthaRithal, vakaippaduthal? (from Cologne online Tamil lexicon; I actually didn't know this exact meaning)


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## Messquito

ThomasK said:


> Messquito: I can see one ideogramme return, I suppose one referring to knife or cutting (with the power symbol below and another above)...


The radical 八 means separate/cut it is an image of two separate lines:  http://www.vividict.com/WordInfo.aspx?id=3606
The radical 刀 means knife, the upper left part is the handle and the main part resembles the blade: http://www.vividict.com/WordInfo.aspx?id=3618
八 was originally the ancient version of 分, before someone put a 刀 to reinforce its meaning and meanwhile, allow more variations.
分 was originally written(drew) with the 刀(knife) in between two lines, which afterwards evolved upward into the 八 above: http://www.vividict.com/WordInfo.aspx?id=3632


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## ahmedcowon

ThomasK said:


> So no etymological links at all then... Funny: Google T mentions "season" for /fasala/...



Arabic words contain only constants and long vowels, short vowels are omitted and that's why the word فصل /fSl/ can be pronounced as:
faSala (he separated)
fuSila (it was separated)
faSl (season/class)
faSSala (he explained in details)
fuSSila (it was explained in details)


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## ThomasK

Holger2014 said:


> @ThomasK I didn't think of 'un-prefixed' _scheiden_ as it is rarely used as such in modern day German. (...)
> Looking up the Dutch verb _scheiden_ in a Dutch-German dictionary I found that it is often translated as _*trennen*, _sometimes _*teilen*_ (and sometimes _sich scheiden_ even though its use is quite restricted nowadays). Another possible translation is _*sich (ab)lösen*_...
> 
> As for _teilen_, in German it can mean either 'to share' or 'to separate' - or both (sharing food can involve separating the available food into portions...) but it seems to be used more frequently than Dutch _delen_ (at least according to this dictionary entry), as in the example _da teilen sich die Ansichten_ - _op dat punt lopen de meningen uiteen_ (~ 'that's where the opinions differ').


 Interesting information. I thought  _scheiden_ was more common. And indeed, I think we use delen in another way: the association with dividing (_verdelen_) is there, but dividing and separating can never be interchanged, I think.
Lösen would be _*losmaken*_ in Dutch, to loosen, or _*loskomen*_ (intrans.)... 

Oh, oh, that might be part of the problem: my question was in some way biased...


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## ThomasK

ahmedcowon said:


> Arabic words contain only constants and long vowels, short vowels are omitted and that's why the word فصل /fSl/ can be pronounced as:
> faSala (he separated) (...)
> faSSala (he explained in details)
> fuSSila (it was explained in details)


 Extremely interesting (for me): explaining as a metaphorical use of separating or distinguishing (the latter being, in my view, a fig. use/ meaning of separating...).
Just BTW: I have noticed that explaining is generally a matter of light (clarify, enlighten, ...) or of getting *out of* chaos (*ex*plain, [sich] *aus*einandersetzen, ...), as metaphors..._ [I thought I had started a thread on that when I was younger ;-), but I cannot find it...]_


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## 810senior

In Japanese

To separate: 分離するbunri-s-uru, 切り離すkir-i-hanas-u
(bun=to divide, ri=to separate, -s-uru=to do[make a compound], kir-i=to cut inf. kir-u; hanas-u=to separate, to let go of)
To distinguish: 区別するkubtsu-s-uru
(ku=district, betsu=distinction)
To differ: 異なるkotonar-u, 違うchiga-u


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## ThomasK

So strictly speaking no link at all, is there?


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## 810senior

Yes there is.


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## kaverison

Armas said:


> Finnish
> 
> separate = erottaa, erotella
> distinguish = erottaa
> differ = erota, poiketa (poiketa also means to deviate, diverge)




Interesting. 

In Tamil,

அறு (aRu) (v) means to cut. 
In spoken language, அத்து விடு - divorce

அறுத்தல் - Act of cutting.
பகு - divide, separate (v)
பகுத்தல் - act of dividing
பாகுபாடு - division, sub-division, class
also, பகுப்பு

vEru - that which is different, that which is separate
வேறுபாடு - difference, disagreement

Reference: Cologne Tamil lexicon


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