# Swedish: Är det en samma sak för Svenskarna ?



## Moorland

Jag undrar ofta när jag har skrivit något på svenska med alltid tänka i engelska, när de har läst det är det grammatiskt korrekt på svenska också? Och är det samma även efter många år av prata Engelska för svenska människor när de skriver något på engelska ....?


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## MattiasNYC

När jag är i USA tänker jag ofta på engelska och skriver och talar som jag tänker. Jag översätter inte längre på samma sätt som jag en gång gjorde. Det är så klart annorlunda för många svenskar eftersom vi börjar läsa engelska redan som barn, och också ser film med engelskt tal när vi växer upp. Men jag tror att för alla som får tillräckligt och i synnerhet för oss som bor utomlands och måste prata engelska regelbundet så förändras vi så att många börjar tänka på engelska. Men det tar lång tid.

Jag tror att mång känner som du dock och ofta undrar om det är grammatiskt korrekt och om de som läser förstår allt korrekt. För mig så är det ofta nyanser som försvinner snarare än att det är svårt att förstå grammatiskt.


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## Moorland

Interesting thanks....

So taking my post below as an example this is what I was thinking in English and what came out, though no idea how it came across at all such as incorrect spelling and nuances etc. I did notice three mistakes though when I used engelska instead of engelsk so there could be more but I felt it was what I was trying to convey....

1. Jag undrar ofta när jag har skrivit något på svenska med alltid tänka i engelska, när de har läst det är det grammatiskt korrekt på svenska också? Och är det samma även efter många år av prata Engelska för svenska människor när de skriver något på engelska ....?

2. I often wonder when I've written something in Swedish but always thinking in English, that when it is read it is grammatically correct in Swedish as well ? So is it the same even after many years of speaking English for Swedish people when they write something in English....?


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## MattiasNYC

Well….. 

I think you've maybe made it harder for yourself by in a way simply "streaming" your thoughts into words. But I suppose that is the whole point of your question. In general I'm not always a fan of brevity since it often strips out nuance etc, but when translating it's probably a benefit. Your sentence was understandable despite grammatical errors, and reading the English version it doesn't seem as if you missed out on too much nuance to be honest. 

My German is pretty horrendous, but I understand a fair amount. If you put me in a position where I have to speak it I'm stuck with the same issue as you simply because I don't know the grammar good enough, my vocabulary isn't large enough, and set phrases, contemporary slang etc is virtually nonexistent.


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## Moorland

Very interesting and much appreciated thank you especially your point about brevity which I've never come across before, so using my example above how would one start the first draft ?


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## MattiasNYC

Well, I'm no literary 'expert', but....

- I'd start the same.
- "me*n* alltid tänk*er på* engelska"
- I would use in English "*does it look *grammatically correct in Swedish?". I think the translation of 'something being read' is clunky in Swedish and will trip you up. I think the context makes it clear that you're talking about written text and thus reading is implied.
- The second sentence I'd definitely cut down in length. But as I said, I also think that in a way doesn't solve the actual problem of translation, just circumvents it.


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## FluentSpeakerNot

My experience is similar to that of Mattias even though I've never been to an English-speaking country. I don't consider my spoken English to be very fluent, but as Mattias said, we get a lot exposure to English through school, movies, and so on. The majority of what I read and write every day on the webb is also in English.

I no longer need to think in Swedish when reading or writing in English. It feels kind of natural. Quite a few times after reading a short piece of text (e.g. a one-two sentence blog comment) I have found myself not knowing what language I just read. When writing text in English I try to use my intuition for what sounds right. I think I'm doing OK but I wouldn't be surprised if you find many grammatical errors in what I have written.


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## Moorland

MattiasNYC said:


> Well, I'm no literary 'expert', but....
> 
> - I'd start the same.
> - "me*n* alltid tänk*er på* engelska"
> - I would use in English "*does it look *grammatically correct in Swedish?". I think the translation of 'something being read' is clunky in Swedish and will trip you up. I think the context makes it clear that you're talking about written text and thus reading is implied.
> - The second sentence I'd definitely cut down in length. But as I said, I also think that in a way doesn't solve the actual problem of translation, just circumvents it.



 Oops typo error
...."that when it is read it is _(is it)_ grammatically correct in Swedish as well ?"

Always have problems with på, av, om and similar short words also their correct placements before or after in a sentence as well so thanks for your critique....


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## Moorland

FluentSpeakerNot said:


> My experience is similar to that of Mattias even though I've never been to an English-speaking country. I don't consider my spoken English to be very fluent, but as Mattias said, we get a lot exposure to English through school, movies, and so on. The majority of what I read and write every day on the webb is also in English.
> 
> I no longer need to think in Swedish when reading or writing in English. It feels kind of natural. Quite a few times after reading a short piece of text (e.g. a one-two sentence blog comment) I have found myself not knowing what language I just read. When writing text in English I try to use my intuition for what sounds right. I think I'm doing OK but I wouldn't be surprised if you find many grammatical errors in what I have written.



No all looks fine to me so if I hadn't known beforehand I would have thought you were English....


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## Moorland

MattiasNYC said:


> Well…..
> 
> I think you've maybe made it harder for yourself by in a way simply "streaming" your thoughts into words. But I suppose that is the whole point of your question. In general I'm not always a fan of brevity since it often strips out nuance etc, but when translating it's probably a benefit. Your sentence was understandable despite grammatical errors, and reading the English version it doesn't seem as if you missed out on too much nuance to be honest.
> 
> My German is pretty horrendous, but I understand a fair amount. If you put me in a position where I have to speak it I'm stuck with the same issue as you simply because I don't know the grammar good enough, my vocabulary isn't large enough, and set phrases, contemporary slang etc is virtually nonexistent.



I like your suggestion of brevity now I've had a chance to think about it as it was a bit of a struggle putting it all together, so do you know of any good online practice site I could try as I haven't covered grammar at all yet. Real pity Swedish wasn't the international basic language at school....


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## MattiasNYC

I don't really know of any resources unfortunately...


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## Moorland

Finally got started with Swedish grammar at last eventually finding this very helpful site in the link below, and wondering using the word glömt if there are any mistakes or more conjugations etc. Also if this is a regular or irregular verb plus anything else I've might have overlooked as well.... ?

Thanks

Jag glömt det - I forgot that (it ?)
Jag hade glömt det - I had forgotten that (it ?)
Jag glömde det - I ? that (it ?)

Swedish Supines and Past Participles and More Grammar


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## MattiasNYC

Jag glömt det - I forgot that 
Jag hade glömt det - I had forgotten that 
Jag glömde det - I *forgot that*


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## Wilma_Sweden

Moorland said:


> Jag glömt det - I forgot that (it ?)
> Jag hade glömt det - I had forgotten that (it ?)
> Jag glömde det - I ? that (it ?)



My verbose and lengthy version:

Jag har glömt det - I've forgotten it OR I forgot it
Jag hade glömt det - I had forgotten it
Jag glömde det - I forgot it

I'm thinking that the perfect tense was missing in your example - e.g. Jag *har* glömt det - I've forgotten that/it. 
In some contexts we would actually prefer imperfect tense in English, i.e. I forgot it, and in other contexts we would use the perfect tense in English too. 

About it/that: If I see 'det', I think 'it' in English - this or that I usually translate into detta/det här (this)' or 'det där' (that). As usual, it's a rule of thumb, not a blanket approach. Context is everything, and the most effective way of learning is by using the language. This is where being a native English speaker has its drawbacks: as soon as you open your mouth and struggle with Swedish, everyone will suggest practising their English on you!

Your first post threw me a bit - I was struggling to make sense of it, but thinking in English did help. I'm a native Swedish speaker and native-like English writer and speaker (although with a bit of a Scanian accent). When I lived in the UK (4 years) I never translated between the languages, I just thought in Swedish, or thought in English, depending on whom I was speaking to. I would sometimes say English expressions in Swedish simply because I'd had forgotten the equivalent Swedish expression, but this was not an issue, either the Swede was familiar with that English expression, and then I'd just get smiles or giggles, or they didn't know it, and then I got blank Huh? faces instead. Sometimes I did it as a joke. I'm referring particularly to fixed expressions that don't make sense when translated verbatim from English to Swedish or vice versa. E.g. 'Jag är lite under vädret' doesn't make any sense in Swedish, but feeling under the weather in English makes perfect sense of course.


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## Moorland

Funny you should say " Jag är lite under vädret" because it sounds funny/nonsense in Swedish to me too as if a giant cumulous cloud had suddenly appeared and was forcing me down into my chair. Then realising that it obviously didn't make sense in Swedish I would immediately look for something like say "affected or weighed down by life in general"  and so would choose "drabbade av" or similar, so it would seem avoiding a literal translation both ways could be the core issue in all this....?


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## MattiasNYC

I agree with Wilma.

As for literal translations I'd just say that it seems to me to also be a bit generational. I recently put together a playlist of Swedish music for my friends Halloween party and listened to some newer Swedish artists for the first time in a while. What struck me was that some of them used phrases that felt to me like they were directly translated from American English into Swedish and then simply 'stuck'. I found it to be very peculiar.


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## Moorland

MattiasNYC said:


> Well, I'm no literary 'expert', but....
> 
> - I'd start the same.
> - "me*n* alltid tänk*er på* engelska"
> - I would use in English "*does it look *grammatically correct in Swedish?". I think the translation of 'something being read' is clunky in Swedish and will trip you up. I think the context makes it clear that you're talking about written text and thus reading is implied.
> - The second sentence I'd definitely cut down in length. But as I said, I also think that in a way doesn't solve the actual problem of translation, just circumvents it.



"Jag undrar ofta när jag har skrivit något på svenska med alltid tänka i engelska, när de har läst det är det grammatiskt korrekt på svenska också? Och är det samma även efter många år av prata Engelska för svenska människor när de skriver något på engelska ....?"

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Been thinking. Firstly and in order to get a much clearer idea of the grammatical structures and differences how would my original "English thinking in Swedish text" above have been written in Swedish as it would be a really useful comparison.

And secondly if anyone would like to have a go, it would be very interesting indeed to read how the following extract below about the Tomte I found on the Net would be written in Swedish as this would be a very useful long term example in comparing not only the two differing grammatical structures and understanding, but most of all how one thinks in one's own language. I've worked on the original Swedish to English translation which was a bit incorrect here and there to make it as English as possible.

*Tomte – One of the most popular Scandinavian mythological characters*

*2015 *

*By Anastacia Sampson*

In Sweden there is the popular Nisse, Nisser or Tomte who is still said even today to protect the farmer and his family as well as the land the farmer owned or worked on against all worries and problems. Especially during the night when he was always on the alert and ready to take on all intruders, however in historical times generally speaking the tomte is seen to be a solitary character, not at all social.

The belief in the tomte has been widespread in Scandinavian countries for many hundreds of years and to this day appears in many Swedish folklore tales, and in olden times the tomte had powerful links to the owner of the farm as the tomte was believed to be the soul of that man. Consequently during the early years of Christianity it was a highly dangerous accusation to be linked to having a tomte on your farm. For example a neighbouring farmer could become so jealous of his neighbour’s wealth he could accuse the prosperous farmer of keeping a tomte, knowing this instantly carried severe penalties as the accused was immediately linked to the devil because the tomte at the time was considered heathen.

In height a tomte is usually considered to be short and about half the size of a fully grown human. He is elderly with a long beard and wears farmer’s clothing, yet despite his small size he possesses inhuman strength, however the protection the tomte offered could be withdrawn at the slightest whim as it was only too easy to unknowingly anger him.

There are two main ways even today to upset and anger a tomte, the first is to alter or interfere with long established daily farming routines as the tomte is a traditionalist and will immediately fly into a violent temper the moment he sees this happening. The other more general way is to show any form of disrespect to the farm itself for example by swearing at it, worse being rude about it worst of all mistreating any animal or bird on it.

It is still customary in more remote areas to show honour and respect to the tomte by leaving him a bowl of porridge on the doorstep or table on Christmas Eve, this being an ancient form of ancestral worship as the tomte has been linked to the souls of the dead. Moreover the tomte is reputed to look kindly and show considerable benevolence in return to any farmer if a large portion of butter is spread across the top of his porridge.

Various tales clearly express that if this vital routine was not scrupulously followed and there was no offering of porridge the tomte would immediately seek revenge by running away, worse by refusing to continue his role as protector or worst of all by deliberately causing some disaster by wreaking havoc on the farm itself. A really angry tomte who thought he had been say ridiculed had the ability to drive people mad, most dangerous of all especially if ever reviled, the perpetrator in the small hours would suffer a poisonous bite that would be instantly fatal.

A form of the tomte emerged in the late 1800s known as a jultomte, and has since been associated with laying Christmas gifts around the hearth in the family home at Christmas time. Whilst today although the tomte still retains his traditional characteristics unfortunately the modern form has become well marketed, still being short he is now sometimes viewed as adult size though his desire to remain hidden from humans still remains as well as all of his magical skills. However unlike Santa Clause the tomte uses the front door and in Sweden lives in a nearby forest, neither is the tomte fat and overweight and if he does have reindeer pulling his sleigh the reindeer are unable to fly.

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I can add the link to it if anyone's interested….?


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## Moorland

How does this sound.... ?
_____________

I Sverige finns Nisse, Nisser eller Tomte. Tomten är känd för att skydda bonden och hans familj, såväl som det land som bonden ägde eller arbetade mot någon olycka. Det var speciellt under natten att tomten var aktivt skyddande, men i historiska tider ses i allmänhet tomten som en ensam karaktär, inte alls social.

Tron på tomten har varit utbredd i skandinaviska länder under många hundra år och fram till idag finns det många svenska folkloreföreläsningar, och I gamla tider hade tomten länkar till den ursprungliga bebodden på gården, eftersom tomten trodde var den själen till den mannen. Under tidig kristen var det en skrämmande anklagelse att ha knutits till att ha en tomt på din gård. Till exempel en grannbonde kunde vara avundsjuk på sin granne rikedom och anklaga den välmående bonden att hålla en tomt. Detta innebar enorma förgreningar som nu var den anklagade kopplad till djävulen, då tomten vid den tiden ansågs hedning.

En tomts fysiska utseende anses vara extremt kort och inte längre än hälften av en fullvuxen människa. Han är äldre med ett långt skägg och klänningar i bondens kläder, trots sin lilla storlek har han överklaglig styrka. Skyddet tomten som erbjuds kan komma tillbaka eftersom det inte är för svårt att förolämpa honom.

Två allmänna sätt att irritera och ilska tomten även idag är att förändra saker som tomten är en traditionell och gillar inte hur saker görs på en gård som ska ändras. Det andra generella sättet är att misshandla gården, genom att svära, vara oförskämd och misshandelande djur.

Det är vanligt att uttrycka bekräftelse på tomten genom att lämna honom en skål gröt på julafton. Detta är också en form av förfaderlig tillbedjan som tomten har kopplats till de dödas själ. Tomten är känd för att särskilt gynna ett litet stycke smör på toppen av sin gröt. Olika berättelser uttrycker hur tomten skulle hämnas om han inte fick sin gröt, genom att springa bort och lämna sin roll som beskyddare eller genom att orsaka olycka eller kaos på gården.

En riktigt arg tomt har förmågan att köra människor galen eller ge en giftig bit som kan vara dödlig.

En form av tomten, framkom i slutet av 1800-talet, som skulle bli känd som jultomte. Jultomte har sedan dess varit förknippat med att lägger ut julklappar till familjen hem på jultid. Idag har tomten fortfarande sina traditionella egenskaper, men den moderna formen har blivit väl saluförd.

Tomtens höjd är fortfarande kort men ibland ses han som vuxenstorlek, hans vilja att förbli gömd från människor finns fortfarande liksom hans magiska färdigheter. Till skillnad från Santa Clause använder tomten ytterdörren och i Sverige bor han i en närliggande skog. Tomten är inte överviktig och om han har ren som drar sin släde, flyger renen inte.


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