# FR: conditionnel journalistique - conditional meaning reportedly, allegedly, supposedly



## TsaraBe

"Le nombre de policiers payées par le trésor public *serait* de loin plus élevé que le nombre de policiers effectivement en service."

Cette phrase vient d'un article dans un journal et je ne comprends pas pourquoi l'auteur emploie le conditionel ici "serait" au lieu de la présente "est".

J'ai vu des autres phrase ou on emploie le conditionel même que c'est traduit par la présente en anglais - est-ce que quelqu'un pourrait m'expliquer la raison pour le faire?

Si je comprends bien la phrase et l'article, ce fait est déjà établi - alors pourquoi employer le conditionel "serait".

Ma traduction en anglais serait:

"The number of police paid by the public treasury is much higher than the number of police actually in service."

Est-ce correct ça?  Ou faut-il dire "The number of police paid by the public treasury would be..."??

Merci d'avance!!

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one. This thread is about the use of the journalistic conditional in French. If you're interested in how to translate the journalistic conditional into English, see EN: conditionnel conjectural/journalistique.


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## pbx

here the conditional mode expresses the fact that sources are missing and not necessarily reliable, I think.


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## Bix

Exactly like Pbx says.

"*[D'après ce que nous avons appris,]* le nombre de policiers payées par le trésor public serait de loin plus élevé que le nombre de policiers effectivement en service."


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## TsaraBe

Thank you for all of your replies. […]

Alors, si je comprends bien, l'auteur lui-même ne doute pas ce fait mais l'information n'est pas complètement fiable?


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## pbx

L’auteur sait que l’information n’est pas 100% fiable mais la juge digne de publication.


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## Jean-Michel Carrère

Indeed, the conditional here is used by the reporter to make it clear to the reader that the information he / she is giving is based on external sources of information : "the number of police officers paid by the Treasury *is believed to be* ..."


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## KeithCar

Bonjour!

Voudriez-vous avoir l'obligeance de m'expliquer pourquoi le conditionnel a utilisé dans le contexte suivant?

« Il *existerait* à l’heure actuelle 250 000 ours bruns répandus sur l’hémisphère Nord. »

Je crois que cela veut dire, en anglais, "There are currently 250,000 brown bears spread throughout the northern hemisphere".


Merci!


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## emma42

Peut-être c'est parce que l'auteur devine le nombre d'ours?


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## janpol

Grevisse, à propos du conditionnel : il s'emploie pour marquer un fait douteux, éventuel, *en particulier lorsqu'on présente ce fait comme un ouï-dire, comme une assertion dont on ne veut pas se porter garant.*
Ce nombre est sans doute très approximatif, il a été communiqué à l'auteur qui n'a pas la possibilité de le vérifier.


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## KeithCar

"At this time, there are *approximately* 250,000 brown bears..."
"*About* 250,000 brown bears are currently spread throughout..."
"*It has been estimated* *that* there now exist 250,000 brown bears..."

I believe these variations capture the meaning of _*existerait*_. I would not have expected the use of the conditional tense (_existerait_) to express this uncertainty. I like it.


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## janpol

Cet emploi du conditionnel est très fréquent, KeithCar : "Le Président aurait dit que.... " "Le suspect aurait avoué... " "45% des électeurs seraient prêts à voter pour le candidat X", " X et Y se seraient rencontrés","un attentat a eu lieu à  ***, il y aurait de nombreuses victimes". On peut penser que c'est une précaution qui met les journalistes à l'abri de possibles procès (???)


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## KeithCar

Merci janpol, c'est à la fois intéressant et éclairant.

English-speaking journalists often use _allegedly_ or _reportedly_ to express a degree of uncertainty, as in "Late last night, the state of Texas _reportedly_ acquired the neighboring state of Oklahoma in a poker game in which the two governors _allegedly _played a winner-takes-all high-stakes game certain to raise questions in the White House."


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## Sedulia

I wish we had a useful feature like this in English, when you are repeating information you are not 100% sure is correct. 

You would have to translate it as "There are thought to be 250,000 bears" or "It is believed that there are 250,000 bears"....


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## evil angel

am i right in thinking that to convey 'reportedly' in a newspaper article you can use the conditional tense?


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## DaniL

Je dirais que oui.

Attendons ce que les francophones natifs en pensent.


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## Tim~!

It's a very common manner that I've heard countless times on French news programmes, even in cases where it seems extremely odd to my ears.


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## Maître Capello

I concur.


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## roymail

Oui, le conditionnel indique que vous ne vous prononcez pas. 
_Y dit que X serait coupable_ : C'est ce que Y dit, je ne sais pas si c'est vrai. Je laisse à Y la responsabilité de son affirmation.


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## raf0708

Oui, ce que dit roymail est tout à fait juste.
En sortant du style journalistique, on pourrait également dire : 
_Selon Y, X est coupable._ 
ou encore,
_Selon Y, c'est X le coupable._


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## DaniL

Dans ma _Grammaire méthodique du français_ (Riegel, Pellat, Rioul), j'ai trouvé un passage très à propos de ta question :

« L'incertitude inhérente au conditionnel est exploitée pour présenter un fait dont la vérité n'est pas garantie. La presse écrite et parlée en fait un large usage, en précisant que l'information est « au conditionnel », ce qui dégage la responsabilité du locuteur :

(1) _Une navette spatiale partirait bientôt pour Mars._
(2) _Un chercheur français aurait découvert un traitement miracle du cancer._ »


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## Fritznock

Hey, I was reading an article online about a a gunman being put down by the police, when I came across the phrase

Un policier a été blessé à la main et souffrirait d'une fracture du poignet.

It translates to me as- A policeman was wounded in the hand and would suffer a fracture of the wrist.

In proper English we would say - A policement was wounded in the hand and suffered a fracture of the wrist.

Why is it that the conditionnel tense is used with the verb souffrir, when it is obvious that the event took place in the past?

would be amazing if someone could help me out on this =D


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## victoire s.

Hi! The conditionnel tense is used because it is not sure that he has a fracture of the wrist (they know he was wounded, but still have no proof that he has a fracture)


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## Tim~!

It's just the way that the French report news.  It puts a bit of distance between the reporter and the event, in much the same way as our own newscasters throw about "allegedly" and "reportedly".


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## Maître Capello

The conditionnal in French can also be used to report uncertain facts and would be translated to _reportedly_ in English.

_A policeman was wounded in the hand and is reportedly suffering a fracture of the wrist._

P.S.: Tim was quicker.


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## Maddie

Hello everyone,

I am trying to write about my understanding of the Clearstream affair. This is a grammatical question. Am I right in thinking that if an accusation is made in French you can use the conditional? For example: 'la liste contiendrait 40 noms du gouvernement'.

Any help would be greatly appreciated


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## Lacuzon

Hi,

Yes, it could be used

But keep in mind that when using conditionnel the fact is not verified nor prouved.


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## Kampernaut

This came from Radio France Internationale's Journal En Français Facile which is supposed to be a 10 minute news bulletin using simple French.  I'm only just starting to learn the language so it is not so simple for me.  

This is the full paragraph for context:

Plusieurs dizaines de corps ont été découverts dans des puits, près proche de JOS, théâtre d'affrontements meurtriers entre chrétiens et musulmans en début de semaine. Et il y aurait encore soixante disparus.

From looking up aurait in the dictionary, I think the last sentence is some use of a conditional tense of avoir but I don't understand the grammar.  Please would somebody be kind enough to explain?

[…]


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## Lacuzon

You are right, il y aurait = There would be.

[…]


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## Kampernaut

Hi Lacuzon,

Thank you very much for your prompt and helpful reply.

So that sentence means literally "And there would be another sixty missing."?  

In English that would be rather unusual way to phrase it.  I think it would be more natural to say: "And there *are* another sixty missing."

Why has the writer chosen the conditional here? Is it somehow representing an approximation or something?

Is this a commonplace and natural mode of expression in French?

Many thanks


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## Maître Capello

The conditional can be used in French to express uncertainty about the facts. In English you would use an adverb such as *reportedly* to convey the same meaning.


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## firstyearout

Bonjour,

Dans la phrase suivante je voudrais savoir pourquoi on utilise le conditionnel.

_Jean-Yves Camus, chercheur et politologue, estime entre 2 500 et 3 500 le nombre de militants d’extrême droite radicale en France. Ils *seraient* répartis en cinq grandes familles : les skins, les identitaires, les néonazis, les hooligans et les cathos traditionalistes.

_Est-ce parcequ'on n'est pas sûr du fait, que c'est une estimation? Je sais qu'en anglais le conditionnel est souvent utilisé pour dire 'allegedly'. Est-ce le même sens?

Merci d'avance!


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## itka

> Est-ce parcequ'on n'est pas sûr du fait, que c'est une estimation? Je  sais qu'en anglais le conditionnel est souvent utilisé pour dire  'allegedly'. Est-ce le même sens?


Exactement ! Ce mode est très employé pour rapporter une information qu'on n'a pas pu vérifier, c'est pourquoi on le trouve fréquemment dans les journaux.


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## Donaldos

Oui, c'est le même emploi. 

C'est courant lorsque l'on rapporte une information qui reste incertaine. Les journalistes en particulier en font grand usage.


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## lacanuck

Bonjour à tous,

I heard that when French journalists write about a crime, they use the conditional tense because they're describing what an accused has done. That is, nothing has been proven or settled yet.

Well, the other day I read an article where they employed both the conditionnel passé AND the passé composé in the same sentence. Can someone please explain why? Here's the passage:

_Après une réunion avec des lycéens qui *se serait* mal passée, mercredi, l'enseignante *est arrivée* dans l'établissement ce jeudi matin avec un bidon d'essence. Après s'être aspergée de carburant, elle *aurait allumé* le feu devant ses élèves en leur criant «c'est pour vous»._


In the first sentence, the first action is in the conditionnel passé ("se serait mal passée)...but why do they then use the passé composé ("est arrivée") ? Why isn't the second action also in the conditional form?

Thanks for your help!


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## jann

Welcome, Lacanuck! 

You have understood correctly that _conditionnel_ and the _conditionnel passé_  are often used for alleged but unconfirmed facts.  This matter  has been discussed extensively already, and I've merged your question  into an existing thread on the topic.

However, there is no need  to use a conditional tense for portions of a sequence of events that are  known to be true.  The teacher did in fact arrive at school with a can  of gasoline.  Apparently that has been established as fact.  It's not  subject to interpretation the way "things went poorly" is, nor is it  dependent on potentially uncertain eyewitness accounts about exactly what she said as she was lighting herself on fire.


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## lacanuck

Thanks, Jann, for your quick response. I'm afraid I'm still confused, however. Could you please clarify a few things? 

1. You said "It's not subject to interpretation the way things went poorly." (The meeting.)  If it's not subjective, then it would be a fact, right? Then why do they use the conditionnel passe for a fact? 

2. The eyewitnesses saw her arrive (so they use the passe compose, "est arrivee")...but they also saw her light herself on fire, so why not use the passe compose here as well? Apparently the only thing they were potentially uncertain about was what she said. 

Sorry, but this is all so confusing 

Thanks again for your help.


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## jann

1.  _la réunion se serait mal passé_ = conditionnel passé.  That the meeting happened is an indisuputable and confirmed fact, but the way things went during the meeting is not.  So we have _conditionnel_ because how well something went is not objective fact: it's subject to interpretation.  The journalist can only report that "apparently the meeting went badly," because s/he was not personally there to observe the meeting and can only base that statement on what others said.  Different people in attendance may even have described how it went differently -- one person saying that it was a disaster, another saying that it was a bit rough, another saying that it wasn't any worse than usual, etc.   

2.  In _elle aurait allumé le feu devant ses élèves en leur criant «c'est pour vous»_, the conditionnel passé refers not only to the setting of the fire but also to what she said.  As the journalist can only go on what witnesses (her traumatized students) recall from the horrible scene, it is difficult to be 100% positive that these were the teacher's exact and only words.  So "allegedly, the teacher lit herself on fire crying "this is for you!"

It is the reporter's (or newspaper's) choice to use the a conditional any time they don't want to assume responsibility for getting things 100% perfectly accurate.  Sometimes the facts and situations of a story take a while to emerge in full detail, and this journalistic style allows the paper to communicate the news as the story develops.  Please do read through the previous posts in this thread to get a better feel for how the conditional gets used in these sorts of situations.


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## Music22

"Il y a eu un incendie à la suite duquel il y aurait de sérieux dégâts. - there was a fire which apparently caused serious damage

"ceux qui auraient lancé les fusées n'ont pas eu le droit de se défendre au tribunal. - those who have allegedly thrown the rockets were not allowed to defend themselves in court.

Why is one using the conditional and the other using the past conditional? They both seem to be the same tense in english


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## radagasty

The English translation of the second sentence is faulty, failing to follow the sequence of tenses:

_Those who *had *allegedly launched the rockets were not allowed to defend themselves in court._


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## boterham

Music22 said:


> "Il y a eu un incendie à la suite duquel il y aurait de sérieux dégâts. - there was a fire which apparently caused serious damage
> "ceux qui auraient lancé les fusées n'ont pas eu le droit de se défendre au tribunal. - those who have allegedly thrown the rockets were not allowed to defend themselves in court.



To me the 1st sentence emphasises the result in the present (fire/arson and related damages) whereas the 2nd one seems to have happened a longer while ago and/or there is no immediate consequence in or connection with the present.


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## Maître Capello

If you allege something about the present, you use a present conditional. If you allege something about the past, you use the past  conditional.

_Il y *aurait* de sérieux dégâts._ = There *is* allegedly serious damage.
_ceux qui *auraient lancé* les fusées_ = those who *(had)* allegedly *launched* the rockets


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## Zarg

Folks,

In this, can "serait donc" be translated as "is therefore" or must it be "would therefore be"?

Souvent, les musiciens rechignent à parler de leurs musiques et sont même rétifs à les définir ou à les enfermer dans des genres, des catégories. La musique serait donc la science des « jeux du silence ».


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## Michelvar

Hi, 

the structure "la musique serait donc" means, depending on the context, "According to them, music is therefore....", or "Music is therefore allegedly...".


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## Zarg

Ah. So it's "serait" like "aurait" in newspapers, when they mean "reportedly"?


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## Michelvar

Yes, precisely.

But "reportedly" is usually equivalent to "according to what I've been told, it looks like it may ....", whereas in your text it looks more like "according to what has been said before, it looks like music may be ....". I don't have the full text, so only you can see what's the real meaning, but it's along this way.


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## pointvirgule

Zarg said:


> Ah. So it's "serait" like "aurait" in newspapers, when they mean "reportedly"?


Yes, it's the _conditionnel de conjecture_ (or, as I like to call it, _conditionnel journalistique_ ).

Suggestion for this context: _It might therefore be said that music is..._


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## dictionarynut

This sentence comes from a French newspaper report on a judicial decision to censure a professor (M. Chazerans) for his comments in class on the Charlie Hebdo attacks.   The parent (not named) of a student complained about Chazerans' comments in class, saying, 





> "M. Chazerans aurait notamment traité les journalistes de Charlie Hebdo de "crapules".


  I do not understand the use of *aurait traité* here.
If translated as "would have treated/talked about" it makes no sense.   It seems that the newspaper is paraphrasing the parent's comments about what happened in the past, saying something like, "M. Chazerans *had talked about* the journalists as crooks.  Or perhaps the passage means that the parent thinks M. Chazerans *should have* viewed them as crooks and was too sympathetic to them.   I have checked the similar threads and am still not sure how to translate this.


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## sound shift

The newspaper is covering itself by saying "In particular, Mr Chazerans *is said to have *..."


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## Enquiring Mind

"Traiter" is not really "talked about" (or "treated") here.


> *traiter [qqn] de [qch]* _vtr_ (donner un qualificatif péjoratif) (_insult_) call _vtr_
> _Elle traite son frère d'imbécile.
> She's always calling her brother an idiot. _(WR)


The conditional, as the previous posts in earlier (now merged) threads say, means in this kind of context "is said to have", "reportedly", "allegedly".





> Or perhaps the passage means that the parent thinks M. Chazerans *should have* viewed them as ...


That would be "... aurait dû les traiter de ..."


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## treyzinbox

Two links that might be useful with specific examples:

*Tex's French Grammar:*
tac1: conditional
"The conditional is also used to give information whose accuracy cannot be guaranteed. Journalists often use it to report events which are not known to be true. "

*TranslationDictory.com:*
https://www.translationdirectory.com/article259.htm
"In French legal documents (statements of claim, conclusions, judgments) that refer to disputed facts the conditional tense is often used when a fact has not been established.
Also when reporting unproven or unverified information or facts, in English, the best solution would be to add an adverb such as 'apparently' or 'allegedly' [whereas in French, he conditional mood can be used]."


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