# Danish pastry



## annettehola

Hi!
  I have to protest. I looked up "Danish pastry" in the WR dictionary. I usually really trust and rely on this dictionary, because it is of very fine quality. But!! Here is what I found:*danish_pastry* *A*_noun_*1 *Danish, Danish_pastry
_light sweet yeast-raised roll usually filled with fruits or cheese _
This definition is unacceptable. Can it be changed, please? Danish pastry is not just a roll. It is a class of very sweet items (you know, pastry, simply) that come in many forms and with many different tastes. Fruit is one, another is cream, either whipped or with vanilla, a third is very buttery, and it sticks to your fingers when you eat it. I suggest you call it a group of pastry, rather than focusing on one item (the roll), because the roll is the least current form of pastry in Denmark. What's worse: NO Danish pastry contain cheese. Really not.
Thanks!
Annette


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## cuchuflete

Annette hola,

Thanks very much for a thorough and interesting critique. Here is the difficulty...you are Danish, and you know exactly what Danish pastry is and is not. Your definition and explanation are accurate. But.......this is a dictionary of English words and terms, as used by English speakers. It is not an encyclopaedia. In AE, at least, the term is used exactly as described. Of course it has little to do with Danish pastry in Danmark! I've had the pleasure of eating lots of pastries in your country, and they have nothing in common with what are called Danish pastry in the US. 
Thus...the definition of the English term is correct as written, even though you find it wrong and even offensive when applied to the pastries of Danmark. 

We have lots of idiotic terms like this for food. "Spanish rice" is long-grain white rice mixed with thin tomato sauce. It has absolutely nothing to do with any rice I've ever eaten in Spain. "French bread" and "Italian bread" are terms used to describe some really atrocious baked goods, which bear no resemblence to the fine breads of France and Italy.

I think you may have come up with a great topic for a thread: Misnamed foods!

Thanks again for caring about the dictionary quality.  I defend the definition, while I avoid the so-called food.  


Best regards,
Cuchuflete


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## panjandrum

For examples, CLICK HERE.

I hope Annette will forgive me for my failure to find a Danish site.

I also found the following fascinating information:


> However, ingestion of poppy seed streusel or Danish pastry led to confirmed morphine and codeine positive (urine) specimens [...]. In addition, significant amounts of codeine were observed in a number of these specimens.


As I have just finished a rather delicious poppy-seed bagel.......... 

Source

Overlapped with Cuchu:  Here is another AE/BE difference then - Danish, to me, means what I think Annette says it means.


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## cuchuflete

With Annette's permission, I will move this to the English forum, so we may continue...
Panj's source is suspect.  The cited page includes these links:

*BLT Research
Paradise-Engineering
Utopian Pharmacology
The Hedonistic Imperative*​


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## annettehola

THANKS A LOT TO YOU, CUCHUFLETE AND YOU, PANJANDRUM. I appreciate very much that you took my protest and considered it in EXACTLY the way I intended to address it,and handled it in the way you did. You know, you have my respect.
Sure, Cuchuflete, all this about French fries and Italian style pizzas sold on the North Pole and what bloody not, sure, it's this tourism thing that sort of is supposed to sell a country and bla-bla. But one thing is interesting, isn't it? That every country seems to have an image. Do they HAVE it (i.e: ARE they really like that?) or is it something they (but who ARE "they?") just promote? Right, sure, it is a money thing. It must be, for I do not believe anybody needed to promote that they were like this or like that, if they actually really WERE this or that particular way. Maybe this is a bit unclear, but then again, maybe you see, what I mean. Now I'm thinking....I know you don't want to change the definition in the dictionary....but what if I came up with a TRULY good (and short) definition that covered the pastry-concept better? Cuchuflete, would you accept that?
Annette


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## panjandrum

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> [..]Panj's source is suspect. The cited page includes these links:
> 
> 
> *[...]*​


... and the inclusion of those excellent links causes you to question the opiate content of poppy-seeds?

... and you thought I wouldn't have looked for another source?

 Click here


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## annettehola

Ej, just ONE more thing: That link, Panjandrum, (I just had a look now) is REALLY fine!
THAT is what Danish pastry is! Kransekage is exactly a wedding cake (but it's also eaten on New Year's Eve). Cuchuflete, you were in Denmark, was it kransekage that you had, or was it wienerbroed? (it's the sticky stuff). I am asking, because Danish pastry is a combination of the two types.
Annette! Go back to your thinking now! Suppose you really got permission to redefine the term...think, think!!
Annette ((( - :


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## cuchuflete

Hi Annette,

Here is a question in reply to your question:  Should a monolingual dictionary define a word/term as it is used, or ignore usage and give a scientifically accurate, objective definition of the words in the phrase as they are *not* used in normal speech?

Your description of Danish pastries is far more accurate, in regards to pastries prepared and consumed in Danmark.  It has little relationship to the baked goods _called_ "Danish pastry" in AE.

I prefer your description for an encyclopaedia entry, or a Wiki article.  Imagine a native Portuguese speaker, learning English.  This person is reading an American novel, and comes across the following dialogue:

Waitress: We've got fresh Danish pastry, gentlemen.
Customer: Yeah, gimme a cheese Danish.

If the student looks up the term "Danish pastry" in a dictionary, will they be helped more by a fine description of the confections of Danmark, or by a definition of the term _as used in AE_?

Cuchu


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## cuchuflete

panjandrum said:
			
		

> ... and the inclusion of those excellent links causes you to question the opiate content of poppy-seeds?
> 
> ... and you thought I wouldn't have looked for another source?
> 
> Click here



Were you wearing water wings and a snorkle?



> ElSohly Laboratories, Incorporated, Oxford, Mississippi 38655.


That lab is under water, resulting in diluted concentrations of poppy seed residue in the er....distillate


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## annettehola

Cuchuflete, I agree with you. Yes I do. 
And now it's weekend time!
Spend it well all of you!
Till Monday, friends! Till Monday!
A warm handshake and lots of respect,
Annette


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## lauranazario

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> With Annette's permission, I will move this to the English forum, so we may continue...


Done.
LN, traffic director


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## panjandrum

Surfacing for air, and finding the thread again 

I take the point about the need to reflect in an English dictionary a definition that is appropriate to the use of the term in English but I wasn't supporting Annette's point just because I liked her definition of Danish 

I wouldn't expect to see the same variety here as might be found in Hansen's in Toronto, or in Annette's neighbourhood pastry-shop, but if I bought a Danish here it would be as she described.


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## annettehola

WORDS AND USAGE:
 Is a word wrong because it's not used?
 Is a word correct because it's used?
  I think, this is what I wanted to discuss when I complained about the def. of "Danish pastry." Think about it! It's not easy.
 What do we mean with language?
Personally I think that the term "language" is a denomination for the following compound: 1) meaning 2) words.
 I mean to say, that what we call "language" IS, in fact, these two "things" taken together and considered as a whole.
 There can be no language without meaning. But there can be languages without words. (Body language being one, fx). This makes me think, that words are, what I would call instruments. Instruments of conveying meaning (or sense of whatever kind) simply. I believe, that the most important thing for translators is, and MUST be conscientiously to honestly try to convey sense in a manner that comes as close as absolutely possible to the original. Yes! A translator for me is a conveyer of sense.
 Words, the instruments we use to express meaning or sense, are, in fact, secondary, I think. For this reason I believe it takes a LOT of intuition and feeling to translate. We should not ask what the words are in another language but what they wish to say in their own. Only starting from this point of departure can real (because it's honest) translation begin, I believe.
  I work in a Spanish software company. It is my task to translate their software manuals into Eng. Now; I studied and taught literature for many a year, so the area of software, and thus, the vocabulary that goes with it, is very new to me. For this reason I spend VERY much time asking the software developers in the company WHAT exactly this and that term means. (I like the Spanish "¿ Que quiere decir...?" because I think it comes very close to my own theory, that words want to say something, want to give an image of the meaning, the sense they carry). When I know what a word wants to say, then I can translate it. Not before.
 Now; this Danish pastry thing...It has many, many implications, and some correspond to what I mentioned before. 1) Danish pastry is a group of sweet bread and something that comes close to cakes or cookies. It's soft, it's buttery and it's really nasty if you eat too much. 2) It is called so because it...Jesus! I don't know! 3) Danish people eat this. So I believe a Dane once thought:"I like this. Why would not others? I'll start selling it! Money for me and pleasure for others. What tradename should I use? Hmm..I'm Danish..this stuff is called "pastry" in English. I should use English to sell my product internationally...I'll call it just that:"Danish pastry."
 Then, suppose it landed in, fx, the USA. Maybe a guy from an Am. state where they are really into cheese bought it, and thought:"Man! This is super-good! Those Danes make good pastry! What if I added a little cheese; though? I like that." And so, before long, people in this part of the world began producing pastry with cheese. But they kept the tradename, because since it was not their product originally, they had no right to change that. I believe they contacted their pastry-supplier in Denmark, and told him:"Look; if you want to be successful on our market, then add some cheese to your product, our  consumers like that." And so....You know what I mean?
 But this leads me to my point: Content can change. Suppose this happens, but does not imply that the name by which people recognize the content does.
What then?
 Is a guitar still a guitar if you take the strings off or substitute them with, say, rubberbands or cord? It is a guitar without a tune; right? A guitar?
Should it still be called a "guitar"? Or a "rubberband guitar"?
 There exists a special guitar here in Spain, which the Spanish insist on calling the "Spanish guitar" because it is said (and that's true) that it has a distinctive and very clear tune that differs considerably from the tune of what most people think of when hearing the word "guitar."
 I think the Spanish are right when they insist on their own name for a thing they know and find special for their own culture.
 What do you think?
  Is a word wrong because it's not used?
  Is a word correct because it's used?
Annette


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## foxfirebrand

Should I be outraged because the French have _sauce américaine_ on the menu?  Nobody in this country eats saffron, for one thing.  Should a French culinary dictionary define _sauce américaine_ in terms of that alien pink glop my grilled lobster medallions were sitting in a puddle of, when the waiter set it down in front of me?  He and two or three of his buddies stood a ways apart and exchanged eye-rolling looks at my bafflement.  It was the most unamerican stuff I ever tasted, and I don't see why that's so funny.

In fact if you took the saffron out it might work okay on a pizza-- what's so _américaine_ about that?

Don't even get me started on Neapolitan ice cream.


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## panjandrum

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Don't even get me started on Neapolitan ice cream.


... or me on Irish pubs 

Unfortunately, although I have a great deal of sympathy with Annette's concern over the definition of danish pastry, I can't go along with her view that it has an absolute definition that ought to be consistent across the world.

However ideal that may be, it is a lost cause.  Just think of the number of words in English that have different meanings on either side of the Atlantic.

The role of the dictionary, surely, is to reflect current usage.  It seems that the WR dictionary definition of danish pastry reflects current usage in the US.  It also seems that danish pastry in the UK and in Toronto (based on a very limited sample) means something different, and closer to what Annette describes.


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## foxfirebrand

I agree on all counts, Panj. And I'd add a small complication-- to many of us regional types a "Danish" is a Noo York kinda breakfast menu item you hear about on sitcoms, and if you showed many Americans a picture of one they'd guess it was a popover that didn't quite get folded up right.

Imagine the Danish purist's plight if JFK had chosen to make his "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech in Copenhaven instead. Don't know how it would come out in Dansk, but "I am a Danish" would certainly have added a twist to the whole discussion.

"JFK Krapfen"


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## panjandrum

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Don't know how it would come out in Dansk, but "I am a Danish" would certainly have added a twist to the whole discussion.


~chuckle~
... especially if this had been translated in the UK to "I am a cream puff."


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## foxfirebrand

panjandrum said:
			
		

> ~chuckle~
> ... especially if this had been translated in the UK to "I am a cream puff."


 
Well, "jellyroll" can be bad enough.  Check it out in any black AE lexicon or blues-lyrics glossary.


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## annettehola

Purist...don't get me wrong. I do not consider myself a member of that club. I just like to talk about language because they really interest me. I lived in Prague for over 6 years, and while there I made a serious attempt at learning it. It's extremely difficult. I could speak it after more than 4 years, but not fluently. I marvelled at this language! It's so incredible! But I wanted to speak it, for I lived there. I noticed, that the (in general very grumpy) Czechs became more welcoming when they saw I struggled to learn their language. I also had another motive: I wanted to read their authors in their original language, in the language they wrote in. There are some (not so many, I found that out later) interesting Czech authors who put their thoughts to paper during the occupation time that was of such long duration in Prague. And then my last motivation: I like languages that come from small language areas. I can't say why, it's just like that with me. This does not make me a purist. I do not want to "clean" anything. What I want to do with languages is to learn them and, hopefully, through this process get to know the people who speak that language. As for my own case: Well yes, I was born in Denmark. I grew up there. I went to school there. I cried there. I laughed there. I have my earliest memories from that country. But now I lived away from Denmark since Jan. 1997, and sometimes I sit down and wonder: Am am Danish. What does that mean? I have come to the following conclusion: I can be called Danish because 1) I speak and understand Danish completely. 2) I understand the jokes and funny stories from this country, the humour; simply. Yes! Language and humour makes me Danish. Nothing else. I still think it is extremely important to treat language with respect, and to understand that if it is to be translated into another language, then the context should follow the translation just as well as the word should. This feeling gets stronger in me the longer I live away from the country where I grew up.
Annette


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## foxfirebrand

Annette-- I can relate to a lot of your thoughts about "compromised nationality" because I lived through circumstances similar to yours. Also, remember that Americans have "nationalities" other than their USA citizenship, and living in Europe for three years reinforced my consciousness of being of this or that Europaisch tribe. Going through your country of origin, the guy at Customs notices your name and comments-- sometimes not in English. I feel much the better for having a complex heritage, the Nazis didn't like "mongrels" but we have what is called "hybrid vigor." Sustaining multilingual skills is one of the chief virtues of this forum.

By the way, I was referring to pastry "purists," not language purists or chauvinists-- and I was being facetious. _Mea culpa_ for refusing to use emoticons (they are the Trojan Horse of language)-- and I added to the misunderstanding by capitalizing "Danish" in reference to the pastry. You can see in the previous paragraph how strong the tendency is for Americans to capitalize "proper nouns."

I think the contention about the purpose of a lexicon is a valid one, it runs deep, and your perspective on it has its adherents. If reflecting word usage was *all* dictionaries did, then that Lumpenlexikon known as Google would be all we needed. Where Panjandrum and I took issue was, the word "danish" is a noun in the AE language, and "a cheese danish" is something you're likely to encounter if you spent some time in, say, New York City. A definition for that word should be included in English-language dictionaries, even though it has no connection with real pastry in a real place named Denmark. Which for some reason (if I remember correctly) has _Danemark_ on its coins?

That's the point I was making, again facetiously, about _sauce américane._


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## cuchuflete

This conversation is too delicious to leave in C&S...It's on its way to the Culture forum, where I hope it will help crowd out some of the trivial fluff that's been parked there recently.

Annette, you would very much enjoy a recent memoir by a superb literary translator, Mr. Gregory Rabassa.  If This Be Treason, Translation and its Dyscontents, A Memoir
New Directions, 2005
ISBN  0-8112-1619-5
US$ 21.95


regards,
Cuchu


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## Isotta

Now wayt uh minnut--what happened to those who (so rightly) defended the city of New Orleans against "new or-LEENZ?" Why not stand up for the integrity of the Danish? Americans finally changed over from "it-lee"--perhaps there is hope yet for the Danish pastry?

Isotta.


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## foxfirebrand

Isotta said:
			
		

> Now wayt uh minnut--what happened to those who (so rightly) defended the city of New Orleans against "new or-LEENZ?"


 
Some of us went off in a royal huff for a while. But don't worry, a gambit has been prepared. Soon the name of another city will be under discussion, and the "I pronounce it my way" people will be finessed into defending the exact opposite position. The New-Orleenzoids will look properly silly.


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Isotta*
> what happened to those who (so rightly) defended the city of New Orleans against "new or-LEENZ?"


I am one of those "New Aw/Or-lins" purists, but my opinion on that is best left in that other thread. 

At the risk of contradicting myself, I think one has to consider how people of a certain country or culture "experience" a particular word, and how that experience helps develop their culture's linguistic landscape, if you will. 

Panj brought up the idea of differences between AE and BE, of which there are a great many. These words, although the same, take different meanings, because our cultural experiences with them are different. 

Take for example panj's peeve, "Irish Pub." In the US - and therefore AE usage - Irish Pub is a darkly-lit, wood-paneled sort of place that serves ice cold Guinness and/or other Irish brews on tap. The "pub" probably has a name such as "O'Malleys," or "O'Connell's" or "Kelly's Irish Green." On weekends, if you are lucky, you might get to experience an "authentic" celtic band, consisting of several Americans who have taken to playing Irish tunes as part of their repetoire. Menu items may includes such delectible "Irish" fare as hamburgers, potato skins and fried cheese. And of course, on Saint Patrick's Day (March 17), this "Irish Pub," because it is _authentic_, will of course, serve green beer.

Poor panj is probably having to recover from a mild seizure right now having read this description. However, the "Irish Pub" as described, is how I, in my experience as an American English speaker, have experienced it, and in several different states (Massachusetts not among them).

The closest I have come to experiencing the real thing is via the movie "The Boys and Girl of County Clare," and similar "Irish" films (which may be equally as non-authentic). While I have been to England, I have not yet had the opportunity to visit Ireland or Northern Ireland, and experience an authentic Irish Pub. I can be assured, however, that my experience would be completely different from the one as described above.


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## Isotta

*Rest assured, I would never judge; I was only confused by the fatalist tone of this thread after the most heroic effort in the other one. Is this not the same principle?

Could the WF English dictionary not read something like:


*
*danish_pastry* 
*A*_noun_*1 *Danish, Danish_pastry
_(Denmark) Short definition of Danish authority's suggestion_ _(U.S)__light sweet yeast-raised roll usually filled with fruits or cheese _ 
I also am an advocate of world peace.

Isotta.


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## cuchuflete

I am an advocate of using various reference works for an easily defined, clearly understood purpose. A glossary is not a dictionary is not a translators' dictionary is not a culinary reference work etc. 

A reference work about Denmark would and should describe local pastries accurately.
A reference work that purports to define words or terms as used in their own regional context should do exactly that, and not confuse the matter. If it's an unabridged dictionary, replete with etymology, you may have the best of all confections.

To the best of my understanding--always as full of apertures as Swiss Cheese (!)--"Danish" is not a Danish word. Nor is 'pastry'. Hence, attempts at loyalty to a definition of whatever is baked and consumed in that Kingdom have nothing to do with the expression as used in AE in the US.

If we are going to get our respective articles of clothing and/or physical appurtenances in a wringer/twist over edibles, lets list a few more candidates:

Swiss cheese
Italian salami
Polish sausage
Spanish onion
Spanish rice
French onion soup
Russian dressing

Is that enough raw material for the 'lins' and 'leeeens' factions to chew on for a little while?


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## Isotta

This is different. Whereas French onion soup/soupe à l'oignon gratinée is virtually the same in both countries, the dictionary says that the Danish pastry is filled with cheese.  
Isotta.


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## cuchuflete

Isotta said:
			
		

> Whereas French onion soup/soupe à l'oignon gratinée is virtually the same in both countries
> Isotta.


  Sez you!




> , the dictionary says that the Danish pastry is filled with cheese.


 Because in the language and usage of the region that dictionary is designed and expected to refer to, it--the pastry-- is filled with cheese.
What's the issue you are attempting to raise?

The dictionary entry was not titled "Pastries found in Denmark".  

Please enjoy your onion soup while you comment on the Swiss on rye with Spanish onion and, if you must, Russian dressing.


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## foxfirebrand

When I traveled to Denmark some years back, I was told not to call the capital city COE-pin-hoggin because that was the German pronunciation-- WWII was still in living memory back then. I kinda mangled the way they actually pronounced the name, but was told CopenHAYvn was close enough. If I'd slipped up and said Copenhoggin I wouldn't've shrugged it off and asserted my right to call the dang place anything I wanted.  I'd've felt embarrassed.

"Danish pastry" is a whole category of things, like "Spanish tapas" or _sushi._ But "a Danish" is something you order in a breakfast eatery or high-volume takeout place like Dunkin Donuts. If you're in a fancier place than that, you might say "I'll have an Evian instead of coffee," and not even be cognizant of internationalist niceties involving some town in Yurp. If you're buying your Danish in a 7-11 store while gassing up, you might pick up a can of Copenhagen at the cashier counter. I doubt if snuce-dippers who do that have any thoughts about offending Scandinavian sensibilities as they hike ther butts up into the semi cab and chug off, savoring a peench of the stuff twixt cheek and gum.

"I'll have a Danish" is no more about authentic ethnic cuisine than "no, make that a Bismark" is about history. "American cheese" doesn't even have anything to do with cheese. Nobody but a manic-compulsive would cringe with the squeamishness of incorrectitude every time he ordered a Hamburger at a Burger King-- a place that reflects in no way, whether good or ill, on the institution of the Monarchy.

A good dictionary of the American language ought to have entries for a Danish, a burrito, or a bag of Fritos, so people (including visitors from other countries who encounter these things) can look them up and find out what everyone's talking about. Nationality of origin can be included in the etymology, and you can xref the entry at the bottom with a "see pastry" link. People who want information about little donkeys can look it up under the appropriate entry-- I see no reason for an apologetic disclaimer cluttering up the simple explanation people are seeking when they look up "burrito."


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## Isotta

Yes, I suppose it is part of the sempiternal sadness/amusement upon discovering a new country.

You kids done wore me out. I'm running on empty between this and looking to buy myself a pair of Gucky shoes today, so I thank ahm gonna git me sum of that gratnee. Or a crape. 

Isotta.


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## GenJen54

Based upon the evidence presented to date, I believe it is safe to assume such bastardization of language goes in both directions.  And food is not the only victim.  I tend to agree that an encyclopedia entry of "Danish" should give a full definition, including its origins and common Danish pastries as found in Denmark.  A basic dictionary definition, however, should only give a relevant definition for the culture for which it is being written.

Oh, and Isotta, don't furget to git yew wun uv thay'em Loo-iss Vwee-tons.


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## french4beth

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Annette hola,
> 
> Thanks very much for a thorough and interesting critique. Here is the difficulty...you are Danish, and you know exactly what Danish pastry is and is not. Your definition and explanation are accurate. But.......this is a dictionary of English words and terms, as used by English speakers. It is not an encyclopaedia. In AE, at least, the term is used exactly as described. Of course it has little to do with Danish pastry in Danmark! I've had the pleasure of eating lots of pastries in your country, and they have nothing in common with what are called Danish pastry in the US.
> Thus...the definition of the English term is correct as written, even though you find it wrong and even offensive when applied to the pastries of Danmark.
> 
> We have lots of idiotic terms like this for food. "Spanish rice" is long-grain white rice mixed with thin tomato sauce. It has absolutely nothing to do with any rice I've ever eaten in Spain. "French bread" and "Italian bread" are terms used to describe some really atrocious baked goods, which bear no resemblence to the fine breads of France and Italy.
> 
> I think you may have come up with a great topic for a thread: Misnamed foods!
> 
> Thanks again for caring about the dictionary quality. I defend the definition, while I avoid the so-called food.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Cuchuflete


 
Cuchuflete,

I totally agree - we could do a whole thread on misnamed foods: I never saw one slice of Canadian bacon (tho I lived in Canada for 6 years); no one that I know from England has ever heard of English muffins or British burgers; the Quebeckers refer to shepherd's pie as « pâté chinois » (Chinese pie ?!?), etc. etc.


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## cuchuflete

While we wait for others to chime in, I think I'll wander over to 





> such bastardization of language goes in both directions.


 Harry's American Bar on the Piazza San Marco a Venezia.  Not to be confused with Venice, CA. 

May the pigeons grant me free passage.


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## anangelaway

Isn''t a croissant a croissant elsewhere? But surely all the way different from one country to another... 

This is a definition I found interesting from a Danish web site:

Source = COFFEE & DANISH PASTRY
Probably you know "*Danish Pastry*"? Cookies made of basically flour, fat and sugar with some extras. Well in Denmark its called "*Wienerbrød*", i.e. bread from Vienna, the Capitol of Austria... All Danes loves wienerbrød. It is *often eaten in the morning or at the beginning of the day*. The workdays at the office, particulary the Fridays, are often started with a cup of coffee and a piece of wienerbrød. 


---
*Wienerbrød vs Danish Pastry.*

When you type croissant in the French-English, croissant remains. 
How about the ''Croissants au Beurre'', ''Croissants aux Amandes'', etc...?

I would't mind calling a Danish Pastry a *Wienerbrød,* but I have to agree it will only be understood if it becomes highly fashionable unfortunately. If the Chefs start using it in their dessert menu, you will see in couple of years, we will all call it a *Wienerbrød. *

*Y: How can I help you?*
*X: Yes, please a Latte, and a Wienerbrød filled with custard and marmelade! Thank you! *

I like it!!!!


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## foxfirebrand

Wienerbrød sounds great-- but if you try and fly something by that name in American culinary culture, I shudder to think what we'll end up with.  Especially in the context of croissants.

First, we have a very common dish called "pigs in a blanket" that combines a sham form of "crescent roll" with a simulacrum of _würstchen_ called a "Vienna sausage" or "cocktail weenie," or one that's actually not entirely unpalatable and goes by the brandname "lil smokie."  It's a miniature or "cocktail" hot dog.

We also have a form of ready-to-bake dough called "crescent rolls," which comes in a cardboard aluminum-lined tube and "can be found in the dairy case" in most supermarkets, right next to the eggs.

You bust these tubes open-- sometimes explosively if you've left them at room temperature for a while and the goop inside begins to rise.  You unroll the moist greasy dough which is perforated into triangular shapes, and you follow origami-like instructions to make a "crescent roll," which you then "bake fresh."  When this fresh substance reaches its "pull date" (expiration date) without being sold, the tubes are thrown out, and on a warm day their explosions constitute one of the commonest hazards faced by dumpster-divers.  Not dangerous, but they'll startle you and of course make a gooey mess of your clothes-- but I digress.

Since Vienna is already associated firmly in the American lexicon with "cocktail weenies," any food item called "Vienna bread" will inevitably be compared or confused with Pigs in a Blanket.  I can see a middlebrow restauranteur coopting the term _Wienerbrød_ to replace the infantile and rather _déclassé_ "Pigs in a Blanket" on his menu.  Next thing you know, we'd be seeing ads for heat-to-eat _Wienerbrød_ on TV-- sounds like the sort of thing Emeril might do.

In case you think I'm making this up, behold proto-Wienerbrød, American style.


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Foxfirebrand*
> In case you think I'm making this up, behold proto-Wienerbrød, American style.


Only in America the US could we have a cheese called "String-Ums."


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## cuchuflete

Restera what?

We found no definition for 'restauranteur' in our English Dictionary. 

Must be one of those AE/BE things.

Please pass the Chinese chop-suee and the Rumanian Pastrami.


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## foxfirebrand

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Only in America the US could we have a cheese called "String-Ums."


 
This is a bit like saying we ought to change the name of our country to U.S. & C. of A. because some U.S. citizens are from Puerto Rico, and might be offended by the implication that their Commonwealth is a State.

I call us _norteamericanos_ where the context calls for it, but you might have noticed we call ourselves Americans and really have no other word for it. _America _refers to the continents, North and South, and the nation alike, that's just the way it is. Mexicans call their capital by the same name as the country, without the "City," but would probably not do so when speaking in English, particularly abroad. Or are you being a little tongue-in-cheek? Maybe we should call the place "Other-than-British-or Latin Columbia, Gem of the Ocean," or simply "Flyoverland."  Hey, how about "Vinland?"  Whupps, that was probably in Canada.

I could never hope to beef up enough to armwrestle Americans out of expressions as deeply-engrained as "only in America." And what would you have people call "Miss America?" "Miss U.S.A." is already taken. Rename "America the Beautiful" and it will never get the traction it needs to become our long-awaited replacement National Anthem. 

If you're fond of polysyllabic euphemisms, I'd venture to guess you use _American_ in at least one context to mean U.S. Citizens. Well, how would you go about politically-reeducating people, possibly including yourself, who use _African-American?_


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## GenJen54

I succumbed to using United States in an attempt to avoid a similarly caustic polemic as can be found here.


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## anangelaway

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> Wienerbrød sounds great-- but if you try and fly something by that name in American culinary culture, I shudder to think what we'll end up with. Especially in the context of croissants.
> 
> First, we have a very common dish called "pigs in a blanket" that combines a sham form of "crescent roll" with a simulacrum of _würstchen_ called a "Vienna sausage" or "cocktail weenie," or one that's actually not entirely unpalatable and goes by the brandname "lil smokie." It's a miniature or "cocktail" hot dog.
> 
> We also have a form of ready-to-bake dough called "crescent rolls," which comes in a cardboard aluminum-lined tube and "can be found in the dairy case" in most supermarkets, right next to the eggs.
> 
> You bust these tubes open-- sometimes explosively if you've left them at room temperature for a while and the goop inside begins to rise. You unroll the moist greasy dough which is perforated into triangular shapes, and you follow origami-like instructions to make a "crescent roll," which you then "bake fresh." When this fresh substance reaches its "pull date" (expiration date) without being sold, the tubes are thrown out, and on a warm day their explosions constitute one of the commonest hazards faced by dumpster-divers. Not dangerous, but they'll startle you and of course make a gooey mess of your clothes-- but I digress.
> 
> Since Vienna is already associated firmly in the American lexicon with "cocktail weenies," any food item called "Vienna bread" will inevitably be compared or confused with Pigs in a Blanket. I can see a middlebrow restauranteur coopting the term _Wienerbrød_ to replace the infantile and rather _déclassé_ "Pigs in a Blanket" on his menu. Next thing you know, we'd be seeing ads for heat-to-eat _Wienerbrød_ on TV-- sounds like the sort of thing Emeril might do.
> 
> In case you think I'm making this up, behold proto-Wienerbrød, American style.


 
Nice... However, upon the picture, in our French culinary culture, we will call it a ''decent hot dog''.
Hummm, perhaps 'un croissant à la saucisse'', this may come from the Pigs in the Blanket alors... interesting!


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## foxfirebrand

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I succumbed to using United States in an attempt to avoid a similarly caustic polemic as can be found here.


 
I don't fault you for your usage, and I did read the thread.  You can't live in Texas for five years and spend eight or nine months in México without "succumbing" likewise, as I indicated in my statement about _context._  And I did read the thread you cite-- the discussion's been going on since long before the first time I encountered it half a century ago.

As for avoiding "caustic polemic," do you really think correcting all your fellow citizens who call the country America, day after day and month after month and year after year till you reach the last breath you'll ever draw-- is going to *avoid* conflict with the ineducable scores of millions of us?  Or stir up same?


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## GenJen54

I agree with you totally.  The word "United Statsian" does not even exist in Standard American English.  And I wasn't trying to correct anyone but myself, and in a tongue-in-cheek manner, at that.


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## anangelaway

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I agree with you totally. The word "United Statsian" does not even exist in Standard American English. And I wasn't trying to correct anyone but myself, and in a tongue-in-cheek manner, at that.


 
GenGen, I also understood you were correcting yourself... nothing else... 

What happened to the pastries? 

*Wienerbrød anyone? *


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Anangelaway*What happened to the pastries?


You are an Angel! You just reminded me of something. The word "flan!" When I lived in France, flan was a light vanilla egg custard served in a pastry crust. However, its Mexican counterpart, which is more like a creme caramel, does _not_ have crust and is baked in a caramel sauce that gives it a very distinct smoky flavor. 

I guess Americans are not the only ones to blame for the Great Pastry Debate 2005. What a relief! 

After all of this discussion, I think I'll partake of a nice cheese Danish. Anyone know of a good wine that would accompany it?


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## anangelaway

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> You are an Angel! You just reminded me of something. The word "flan!" When I lived in France, flan was a light vanilla egg custard served in a pastry crust. However, its Mexican counterpart, which is more like a creme caramel, does _not_ have crust and is baked in a caramel sauce that gives it a very distinct smoky flavor.


 
Would it be the ''Crème brulée''?
Also, the ''Crème Catalane'' seems to fit with the Mexican counterpart. 




			
				GenGen54 said:
			
		

> After all of this discussion, I think I'll partake of a nice cheese Danish. Anyone know of a good wine that would accompany it?


How about a good Kijafa Cherry liqueur from Denmark?


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## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Anangelaway*
> Would it be the ''Crème brulée''?



Not exactly. Creme brulée normally has a crunchy "crust" of burnt sugar. I have never heard of Creme Catalane, but it sounds like it could be close to what I know as "flan."

And that Kijafa liquer sounds delightful.


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## foxfirebrand

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I agree with you totally. The word "United Statsian" does not even exist in Standard American English. And I wasn't trying to correct anyone but myself, and in a tongue-in-cheek manner, at that.


 
And so you did-- a fact I glossed over royally, and just about lost track of in spite of mentioning it. It's hard for me to listen to others when I give my _own_ vehement blatherings such scant notice. I of all people should blush at taking your deadpan for dead-earnestness.

It's also not the United-Statesian way. I'll go sit in the corner now, and enjoy a bowl of _arroz con cuervo,_ with a dash of _salsa polémica._


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## cuchuflete

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> And so you did-- a fact I glossed over royally, and just about lost track of in spite of mentioning it. It's hard for me to listen to others when I give my _own_ vehement blatherings such scant notice. I of all people should blush at taking your deadpan for dead-earnestness.
> 
> It's also not the United-Statesian way. I'll go sit in the corner now, and enjoy a bowl of _arroz con cuervo,_ with a dash of _salsa polémica._



Is that _cuervo _as in José? Or as in 'cría cuervos?


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## foxfirebrand

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Is that _cuervo _as in José?


 
I could only wish!  No, it's only eating crow I'm talking about-- I was thinking, though, that since the thread is nominally about pastry I could bake it up into a tasty crow pot pie.  I could kill two birds with one stone and enjoy it with the proverbial pocketful of rye.  That's a pocket _flaskful_ of the stuff, right?


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## annettehola

Soedmaelk would do for me. Or kaernemaelk (you know, the one with the green label) to accompany the wienerbroed. Wauw! I like all of you!
Would anybody like a Gajol?
Annette


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