# Thou



## BlueWolf

A question for personal culture, because I know I'll never use "thou" in English. 

Which is form of the verb "to be" used with thou? Are or is?


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## Paul in Oz

Thou art = You are

Old English, but it is still in use today.

Another seldom used is, Prey tell = Please explain.


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## Max.89

It is used art.

Who art thou? = Who are you?


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## BlueWolf

Thank you very much. Could you give me its pronunciation, please?


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## lsp

*Paul*, Pr*a*y tell, where is "thou art" still in use today?

*BlueWolf*, Thou is like thow (ow as in when you are hurt).


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## TimLA

lsp said:
			
		

> *Paul*, Pr*a*y tell, where is "thou art" still in use today?


 
Lancaster County, Pennsylvania - They wear black and white clothes and have cars with funny animals in front of them.


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## lsp

TimLA said:
			
		

> Lancaster County, Pennsylvania - They wear black and white clothes and have cars with funny animals in front of them.


You are so right! But I caution that "still in use today" might be misleading. It is _exceedingly_ rare.


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## moodywop

A nice quote from Shakespeare's sonnets, which also contains the object pronoun "thee":

Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate

Until "thou" became obsolete the "thou/you" distinction was similar to the one between "tu" and "voi" in Italian until "lei" gradually replaced "voi" as the polite form of address.

"In the 13th century the singular forms (_thou, thy, thee) _were used among familiars and in addressing children or persons of inferior rank, while the plural forms (_ye, your, you) _began to be used as a mark of respect in addressing a superior"
(A Baugh _A History of the English Language)_

A related question: does anyone know when _lei _started being used as a polite form of address?

PS Please feel free to address me as a "person of inferior rank"


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## giannid

Thou (rhymes with _ciao_) is sometimes used when quoting Bible verses like _Thou shalt not kill _or _Thou shalt not steal.  _


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## lsp

giannid said:
			
		

> Thou (rhymes with _ciao_) is sometimes used when quoting Bible verses like _Thou shalt not kill _or _Thou shalt not steal.  _


(rhymes with _ciao_) - MUCH better!!!!


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## Brian P

Mi ricordo che molti anni fa ho ricevuto una lettera formale che mi ha chiamato "Ella".  Si usa ancora questa forma od è diventata disueta?


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## moshi

I've never used Ella in my life! I think now everybody writes Lei, even in the most formal letters.


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## danalto

Brian P said:
			
		

> Mi ricordo che molti anni fa ho ricevuto una lettera formale che mi ha chiamato "Ella".  Si usa ancora questa forma od è diventata desueta?


Si usa ancora in situazioni molto molto formali.


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## TimLA

moodywop said:
			
		

> A nice quote from Shakespeare's sonnets, which also contains the object pronoun "thee":
> 
> Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
> Thou art more lovely and more temperate
> 
> Until "thou" became obsolete the "thou/you" distinction was similar to the one between "tu" and "voi" in Italian until "lei" gradually replaced "voi" as the polite form of address.
> 
> "In the 13th century the singular forms (_thou, thy, thee) _were used among familiars and in addressing children or persons of inferior rank, while the plural forms (_ye, your, you) _began to be used as a mark of respect in addressing a superior"
> (A Baugh _A History of the English Language)_
> 
> A related question: does anyone know when _lei _started being used as a polite form of address?
> 
> PS Please feel free to address me as a "person of inferior rank"


 
This is very interesting to me on a variety of levels, some of which you've commented on in other threads. Perhaps this deserves another thread, but I'll leave that to you.

Wikipedia discusses your question, but doesn't give a time of onset of the change. They state that the origin may be from formal usages with royalty, which would be similar to Spanish "vuestra merced" for "usted". I've also heard that Mussolini tried to have the entire country switch to "voi" in place of "lei" - would you have further info on that?

Most interesting though would be the ideas that you've discussed previously regarding "Italian" not being a common (universal) language until very recently. It would therefore be hard to imagine an older, common usage of "lei".

Your thoughts?


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## Brian P

I'm reading "La Romana", a novel set in Rome in the 1930's in which characters use "voi" as the formal address.


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## moodywop

I don't know why it didn't occur to me to search the Accademia della Crusca site. I found an interesting discussion here.

Professor Serianni says that in Medieval Italian only _tu _and _voi_ were used. For example in the Divine Comedy Dante mostly uses _tu _to address the people he meets (including Virgil)and reserves _voi _for great figures he is in awe of(like Brunetto Latini, whom Dante had great respect for but nonetheless placed in Hell in the area reserved for sodomites - go figure). The use of _lei _started in court circles in the various Renaissance principalities. From the 15th century to the mid-20th century all three were in current use. Then _lei _gradually replaced _voi _in central and northern Italy. _Voi _is still used in southern Italy but is being used less and less since, as Serianni says, the younger generations are discarding it for _lei. _So _voi _is headed for extinction.
The _voi _Dante used as a high form of respect is now looked down on and those who use it are seen as country bumpkins by linguistic upstarts who feel their recent acquisition of the national "standard" entitles them to feel superior to those who still preserve noble, centuries-old forms. The ironies of history...

It's a shame really. Language change can't be stopped but I wonder why this simplification process has gone so far as to make us lose a distinction like the one between past tense and present perfect, a distinction which English (especially BE) has felt it necessary to preserve and which all our great writers made over the centuries. Was this simplification and the resulting loss of expressive resources a necessary price to pay for the attainment of a national language?


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## disegno

I find it interesting that the "voi" form for formal address is used in the Dylan Dog illustrated comics, instead of the "Lei" form. This seems a pretty recent and mainstream publication, that a younger generation would be reading. Perhaps the "voi" form is not so arcane or headed for extinction, to be found only in Dante and ancient literature.


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## nowall

Here (http://www.answers.com/thou) the pronunciation may be listened.


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## Hushi

Many thanks Moodywop for the wonderful discussion and for the site of the Academia della Crusca. I always learn a lot from you. 
Now if only I had the guts to say all this in Italian....


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## darkmatter

I asked a friend of mine that speaks fluent English and Italian why someone would use _voi_ in place of the formal _lei_. She explained that _voi_ is used when speaking to older people (like 60 years+) as a form of respect.


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## Moogey

darkmatter said:
			
		

> I asked a friend of mine that speaks fluent English and Italian why someone would use _voi_ in place of the formal _lei_. She explained that _voi_ is used when speaking to older people (like 60 years+) as a form of respect.



According to my Italian teacher, you should do this in the south but not necessarily in the north. If you address an old lady in the south by Lei she will be offended, he said.

-M


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## Max.89

> According to my Italian teacher, you should do this in the south but not necessarily in the north. If you address an old lady in the south by Lei she will be offended, he said.


 
Let's say it depens on one's character.
Sometimes you will find demanding people willing to hear voi instead of tu,
but you can find who will be offended.
I would not do this distinction between north and south .
With the advent of the new generation probably the voi usage will disappear completely.


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## Brian P

Max.89 said:
			
		

> Let's say it depends on one's character.
> Sometimes you will find demanding people willing wanting to hear voi instead of tu,
> but you can find others who will be offended.
> I would not do make this distinction between north and south .
> With the advent of the new generation probably the voi usage will disappear completely.


 
Scrivi bene in inglese, Max, ma hai fatto alcuni piccoli sbagli.


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## nickditoro

nowall said:
			
		

> Here (http://www.answers.com/thou) the pronunciation may be *listened* *heard*.


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## nickditoro

danalto said:
			
		

> Si usa ancora in situazioni molto molto formali.


Danalto, once upon a time I read that "Ella" was used to address the pope. But back then, popes used to refer to themselves as "we" (the imperial form), which I believe was discontinued by John Paul II. However, I haven't seen any recent examples where the pope is addressed in Italian, so couldn't say whether this practice continues. 

Nick


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## moodywop

Here's an authentic example from a letter from my principal:

_...Ritengo quindi che Ella , a ragione, possa accusarmi di..._

After I pointed out to him that we were not at the court of the Bourbon King of Naples in the nineteenth century he switched to _lei _

Incidentally, Elisa has just visited me in the Deep Dark South and she will be able to confirm she was always addressed with _lei. _
I address my pupils' grandmothers' with _lei _and not once have I noticed any unease on their part. I'll check with the few pupils whose greatgrandmothers are still around


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## Brian P

Una piccolissima errore, Moodywop.  You address somebody as "lei", not with.


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## moodywop

Brian P said:
			
		

> Una piccolissim*o* errore, Moodywop. You address somebody as "lei", not with.


 
Grazie, Brian It's been twenty years (almost to this day) since I left England to return to Italy. My English is getting rusty

EDIT: Can I use "to this day" with "has been"? Should I maybe have used "it's twenty years..."?


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## Elisa68

moodywop said:
			
		

> Incidentally, Elisa has just visited me in the Deep Dark South and she will be able to confirm she was always addressed with _lei. _


I confirm. Moreover, I found out, amazingly, that they also speak Italian fluently!


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## Brian P

Pregatissimo Moodywop

Ella potrebbe dire "It's twenty years" ma "it's been twenty years" è migliore.

Suo devotissimo servitore,

Brian


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