# וילדת (Judges 13:5)



## nili95

*Moderator note:
Split off from another thread.*


Sorry, but one more (unrelated ?) question:

I just noticed וְיֹלַדְתְּ in the above. Why is the yod vocalized by a kholam khaser rather than a kamatz?​


----------



## Drink

nili95 said:


> Sorry, but one more (unrelated ?) question:
> 
> I just noticed וְיֹלַדְתְּ in the above. Why is the yod vocalized by a kholam khaser rather than a kamatz?​



That is interesting. One possibility: Since I see that in Isaiah 7:14, in essentially the same phrase, it is vocalized as וְיֹלֶדֶת, which is the feminine singular active participle form. So it could be that וְיֹלַדְתְּ in Judges 13:5 is a remnant of the older form of the feminine singular active participle, before the change from *_yōladt_ > _yōledet_.


----------



## nili95

Drink said:


> So it could be that וְיֹלַדְתְּ in Judges 13:5 is a remnant of the older form of the feminine singular active participle, before the change from *_yōladt_ > _yōledet_.


Is it known that there was an older form of the feminine singular active participle? Do you know of other examples?


----------



## Drink

nili95 said:


> Is it known that there was an older form of the feminine singular active participle? Do you know of other examples?



Well nothing is for certain, but in all likelihood this was the older form. The same applies to all segolates in Hebrew. When an object suffix is attached to the feminine singular active participle, it reverts back to this older stem (יוֹלַדְתּוֹ would mean "giving birth to him" or "the one who gives birth to him"). I can't think of any real examples off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are plenty of them in the Bible, although probably not with this verb.


----------



## nili95

So וְיֹלַדְתְּ is a precursor of וְיוֹלֶדֶתְּ rather than a variant of וְיָלַדְתְּ ?


----------



## Drink

nili95 said:


> So וְיֹלַדְתְּ is a precursor of וְיוֹלֶדֶתְּ rather than a variant of וְיָלַדְתְּ ?



That's just one possibility. You can't know, you can only theorize (also, it's וְיוֹלֶדֶת, not וְיוֹלֶדֶתְּ).


----------



## nili95

Drink said:


> That's just one possibility. You can't know, you can only theorize (also, it's וְיוֹלֶדֶת, not וְיוֹלֶדֶתְּ).


Of course. Thanks again.


----------



## nili95

I reached out to the author/translator of *Judges: A Commentary* and she graciously offered: 


> It would seem that the form found in 13:5 and again in 13:7 is a mixed one that combines a participle at the beginning (weyoledet) with a waw conversive perfect form. So suggests the great old grammarian Jouen (section 89j). This sort of thing is found all the time. To be sure, possibilities for alternate vocalizations and some elasticity in tense implications of particular forms often complicate matters.


So the question now becomes: Can anyone explicate the reference to "great old grammarian [Paul] Jouen (section 89j)?"


----------



## origumi

Paul Joüon (downloadable PDF): Grammaire de l'hebreu biblique
Maybe there's an English version (I didn't see it online), e.g.: http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Biblical-Hebrew-Subsidia-Biblica/dp/8876536299


----------



## nili95

origumi said:


> Paul Joüon (downloadable PDF): Grammaire de l'hebreu biblique
> There's an English version (didn't see it online): http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Biblical-Hebrew-Subsidia-Biblica/dp/8876536299


*Thank you!* (But you'll have to deal with my wife when she discovers that I just purchased the book.)


----------



## bazq

There is an English version.
T. Muraoka translated Jouon's grammar from French to English.

P. Jouon T. Muraoka "A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew".


----------



## Drink

nili95 said:


> I reached out to the author/translator of *Judges: A Commentary* and she graciously offered:
> So the question now becomes: Can anyone explicate the reference to "great old grammarian [Paul] Jouen (section 89j)?"



I just found that the same phrase occurs in Genesis 16:11: הִנָּךְ הָרָה וְיֹלַדְתְּ בֵּן.
The seemingly more correct collocation also occurs in Jeremiah 31:7, but seemingly referring to different (types of) people: בָּם עִוֵּר וּפִסֵּחַ הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת יַחְדָּו (with them, the blind and the lame, the pregnant woman and the woman who has given birth, together).


----------



## hadronic

The וקראת  "she has called+ waw conversive"  is weird too. Shouldn't it be וקראה?

  הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שמו


----------



## Drink

hadronic said:


> The וקראת  "she has read + waw conversive"  is weird to. Shouldn't it be וקראה?
> 
> הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שמו



Interesting, I wonder if that could be a remnant of when the 3rd-person feminine singular past tense ended in -at, rather than -a, but then you'd think it should be vocalized קָרְַאַת or perhaps קָרְאָת. That is, unless the Masoretes tried to "correct" it to the form of the 2nd-person feminine singular. Another option is that it is a 2nd-person masculine singular, with the -a dropped as though it were a pausal form, even though it is not in a pausal position. Still another option is that the עלמה is actually there and he switches and talks directly to her.


----------



## nili95

Drink said:


> I just found that the same phrase occurs in Genesis 16:11: הִנָּךְ הָרָה וְיֹלַדְתְּ בֵּן.
> The seemingly more correct collocation also occurs in Jeremiah 31:7, but seemingly referring to different (types of) people: בָּם עִוֵּר וּפִסֵּחַ הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת יַחְדָּו (with them, the blind and the lame, the pregnant woman and the woman who has given birth, together).


That is very interesting. Do you think that we're seeing language evolution or something more akin to theatre/theater?


----------



## aavichai

As they say:
This is the old form of of the word
Yoladt->Yoledet
another example for this is in jeremiah 22:23
you see there Mequnnant "instead of" Mequnnenet
and Yoshavt "instead of" Yoshevet

יֹשַׁבְתְּי) יֹשַׁבְתְּ בַּלְּבָנוֹן (מְקֻנַּנְתְּי) מְקֻנַּנְתְּ בָּאֲרָזִים)

as you can see, the written text in () is even more an older form with the I in the end


----------

