# deux mois de prison ferme



## JMA1999

Hi

I'm looking for the way to translate the word "ferme" in the context "condamné à deux mois de prison ferme" which means that the sentence cannot be shortened for good behavior.


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## Kat LaQ

How about: *mandatory sentence*

*a two month mandatory sentence*
or
*a mandatory sentence of two months*


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## suffert

Pour moi "ferme" s'oppose simplement à "deux mois *avec sursis*" (dans le cas du sursis, on n'effectue la peine que si on est condamné une deuxième fois pour une autre infraction, alors qu'avec la prison "ferme", on doit purger sa peine)

Quand la peine ne peut pas être diminuée pour bonne conduite, elle est normallement qualifiée d'i*ncompressible*.


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## Kyara78

Totalement d'accord avec Suffert


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## Kelly B

So then it means it's a sentence that cannot be _suspended_.

Is it _without probation_? http://www.answers.com/topic/suspended-sentence


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## edwingill

a two-month prison sentence *without parole*


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## Agnès E.

Mmm... *Peine de prison ferme* and *peine de prison incompressible* are two different things, as suffert pointed out.

The French law system (I can't say about other ones, I'll therefore stick to what I know  ) has two different kinds of prison sentences: either your fault was not serious enough to justify to send you to jail, but needs to be recorded in your criminal record, and you get _une peine de prison avec sursis_, or you go to jail (_peine de prison ferme_).

In a case of _peine de prison ferme_, the crime can be so serious that the judge decides you won't have a chance to get free sooner for good behaviour. This is _une peine incompressible_.

As for the English terms:

My dictionary gives *inprisonment without remission* for _prison ferme_.


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## Jalc

Agnès, just to add a precision:
In case you are sentenced to "prison avec sursis" you are indeed not sent to jail, but in case of another infraction to the law ( "récidive" ), you will have to go to jail the duration of the first sentence+the new one.


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## LeTasmanien

Hello everyone.
This is my first post but I am sure not the last!

I was very interested in the discussion above and have come across this expression
"Il était condamné à 2 ans de prison dont 6 mois ferme"

Is this equivalent to saying
"He was condemmed to 2 years in prison with a 6 month non-parole period "
That is he must serve at least 6 months in jail.

Thanks
Phil


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## Icetrance

But, a sentence of "peine de deux ans de prison ferme", that means that the person must serve two years in person (obligatoire). But, if it's "incompressible", it's also mandatory. So, I don't understand the difference between the two.


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## Question Kate

Hello,

If I might ask for some clarification...

"prison ferme" does not seem to me to mean the same thing as mandatory sentencing, at least in the American context. In the American context, mandatory sentencing (or a mandatory sentence) concerns a law that dictates (mandates) that the offender receive a certain sentence--the judge does not get to decide. So the mandate concerns the necessity of a specific sentence, imposed by the law _on the judge_, _not_ on the offender. The judge is mandated to serve a certain sentence.

"Prison ferme" simply means to be sentenced to prison, to spend time in jail. To be contrasted with, in the French system, "prison avec sursis." In the American system, "prison avec sursis" corresponds to something like "probation" or a "suspended sentence."

Does this sound correct to those who know something of law?

Thank you for any clarification.


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## broglet

In the UK we simply use "prison sentence" for "prison ferme" (by contrast with "suspended sentence" for "prison avec sursis")


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## Question Kate

Thank you, broglet.

I would agree with your translation. It appears that "prison sentence" and "suspended sentence" have retained the same meanings in Anglo-Saxon law despite our (British and American) centuries of separation.

So just to clarify: "prison ferme" does not mean "mandatory sentence." Would English speakers agree?

Thank you for any clarification.


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## Docbike

"Fixed sentence" is the phrase you are looking for.


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## Question Kate

Thank you for the input, Docbike.

"Fixed sentence," in American English, wouldn't work, I believe. Mandatory sentencing is a type of fixed sentence: again, the judge has no discretion in choosing the sentence. "Prison ferme" is a sentence that a French judge can choose--as I understand it. "Fixed," "determinate," "mandatory"--these all refer to a law imposed on the sentencing body, not on the offender. In American English, it seems that the correct translation is simply "prison": in the example from this thread: "sentenced to two months in prison."

But perhaps a lawyer would know better...


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## clairet

If the contrast is "avec sursis" (suspended sentence), then I think Question Kate and broglet must be right - it just means actually going to prison, with the actual length of the sentence depending on things like good behaviour but not exceeding whatever period is mentioned.


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## Question Kate

Thank you, clairet.

I would agree with you.

The confusion over "ferme" comes for English speakers because the "ferme" is specified to distinguish between the other French legal term "prison avec sursis." 

I suppose the question for a new thread is does the French legal system have mandatory sentences...and if so, how does one say it in French.


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## Question Kate

But then LeTasmanien's translation of the following sentence doesn't seem right.

"Il était condamné à 2 ans de prison dont 6 mois ferme"

"He was condemmed to 2 years in prison with a 6 month non-parole period."

Maybe it should be something like:

He received a two year sentence, with an obligatory six months in prison.

"Prison" in the French sentence doesn't seem to mean prison (a place of incarceration) so much as a legal status. After the 6 months the offender could be released from prison but he would still be legally serving his sentence for another 18 months. That is, afterwards he would be on probation and thus under certain rules that means he could be reincarcerated without going through another trial.  

Thank you for any help...(do I need to start this as a new thread?)


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## clairet

QuestionKate#19 I understand Le Tasmanien's French sentence as (I think) you do: he got a prison sentence of 2 years, of which 18 months were suspended.  How much of his 6-month unsuspended sentence to prison would actually be in prison would then depend on good behaviour etc.


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## underzero

Question Kate said:


> That is, afterwards he would be on probation and thus under certain rules that means he could be reincarcerated without going through another trial.



Not exactely.

He just serves 6 months in jail, then he's free.

But if he breaks the law again, there will be another trial (and another conviction) and his "sursis" will be "révoqué" (cancelled) so he'll have to do the other 18 months (plus the new time).


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## WME

So I understand it may be translated as "unsuspended prison sentence" ? As there is a specific term and concept in French, not in English.


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## clairet

I don't think you'll ever see "unsuspended prison sentence" in English.  A convicted person gets a prison (or other punitive) sentence or a suspended sentence (which may be to prison, to community service or whatever - but it is suspended, usually I think for a definite period, and will only be enforced if the terms of the suspension (e.g. not to commit the crime again but maybe also to avoid other specified behaviour) are broken.  So the default in the language, as in the law, is a sentence and we only qualify it if it is suspended.  Even if a journalist wants to emphasise that a sentence was not suspended (e.g. as expected) she'd be far more likely to say something like "X got a prison sentence which was not suspended in this case".  "Unsuspended prison sentence" is a tautology in English.


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## WME

so convictions simply can't be split between a suspended part and an unsuspended part ???


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## Martyn94

Yes they can: it is just that we do not generally say "unsuspended". "He was sentenced to three years jail, of which two were suspended".


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## WME

so you just see it from the way round
We can say il a ete condamne a deux mois fermes, period, without mentionning the suspended part but you can't


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## clairet

So, if I understand WME correctly, the (a?) French version of Martyn94's example of the English "sentenced to three years jail, of which two were suspended" would be "il a été condamné à un an de prison ferme."  Presumably a French writer could choose to mention the 2 years suspended if she chose (as suffert said in #3).


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## WME

yes
you can say
il a été condamné à un an de prison ferme
il a été condamné à trois ans de prison dont un un an ferme et deux avec sursis
il a été condamné à trois ans de prison dont deux avec sursis (as in English)
il a été condamné à trois ans de prison dont un ferme

the part I had to translate specifically referred to the "partie ferme"
"La partie ferme de la condamnation ne sera sans doute pas exécutée"
Now you can understand my difficulties...


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## Keith Bradford

WME said:


> ..."La partie ferme de la condamnation ne sera sans doute pas exécutée"...


= *He will in fact probably serve no time in jail*.

This is presumably because he's already been held in jail on remand (= before trial) for a longer period than he is sentenced to?


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## WME

Hi Keith
No, this is because it's only six months and... the "judge responsible for the execution of sentences" said so


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## Wodwo

Having read this very useful thread, I think that for #9 above, "Il était condamné à 2 ans de prison dont 6 mois ferme", which is the same as my context, in the UK this is usually expressed in a roundabout way. 

We might say "He was sentenced to 2 years with the stipulation / and the judge ruled that he must serve at least 6 months". This is because, as I understand it, prisoners are usually considered for parole halfway through their sentence, and also have pre-trial time on remand taken into account in assessments of how long they have been in prison.


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## Polyglot Jurist

The usage here will vary considerably by jurisdiction. I’m going to chime in on Canadian usage.

In Canada, a “suspended sentence” does not mean the same thing it means anywhere else, and Quebec usage of “prison avec sursis” reflects the Canadian definition of a conditional sentence (a period of custody to be served in the community, typically though not always on house arrest), *not* the Canadian English “suspended sentence” or a perfect match of French “prison avec sursis”. Meanwhile, a Quebec judge imposing a Canadian “suspended sentence” will say “je vais surseoir au prononcé de la peine”, meaning no jail is being imposed, but if you breach your probation order the judge can sentence you all over again for the original crime. So caution is necessary.

With that said, in Canada, the statement “2 ans de prison dont six mois ferme” would be “2 years of prison with no parole for six months”.

“3 ans de prison, dont 2 ans avec sursis” would be “3 years imprisonment, of which 2 are to be served in the community”.

*Either in English or French, these sentences would probably never exist in Canadian law (judges decide sentences but don’t ordinarily fix parole eligibility except for life sentences). But if it ever did, that’s how it would be expressed.


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