# とともに/にしたがって/につれて/にともなって



## adexx

とともに/にしたがって/につれて/とにもなう

All those words can be used after V-ru to mean "along with, together with,...". Is there any difference (in this sense only)?


----------



## Wishfull

adexx said:


> とともに/にしたがって/につれて/とにもなう
> 
> All those words can be used after V-ru to mean "along with, together with,...". Is there any difference (in this sense only)?


 
Hi.
とにもなう　might be typo of にともなう.
To make it the same way with other 3, you had better say にともなって

人口が増えるとともに犯罪が多発する。
人口が増えるにしたがって犯罪が多発する。
人口が増えるにつれて犯罪が多発する。
人口が増えるにともなって犯罪が多発する。

Well, I would say they have the same meaning.
I think they are just paraphrasing of the same meaning.
You can use whichever you like.

And I'm also interested if there are different opinions which claim that there is nuance among them. 
Wishfull.


----------



## lammn

adexx said:


> とともに/にしたがって/につれて/にともなって
> 
> All those words can be used after V-ru to mean "along with, together with,...". Is there any difference (in this sense only)?


 
It seems that someone is studying 2-kyuu grammar. 

Sometimes the usage of the four phrases are the same, as in Wishfull's example.
There are times, however, when they are slightly different.

Unlike the other three, とともに does not _necessarily_ establish a casual relationship between two things. It just states that two things happen at the _same time_. For example:


日本刀は武家の需要により、刀身の身幅が広くなるとともに、元幅と先幅の差が縮まる。
日本刀は武家の需要により、刀身の身幅が広くなるにしたがって、元幅と先幅の差が縮まる。 
日本刀は武家の需要により、刀身の身幅が広くなるにつれて、元幅と先幅の差が縮まる。
日本刀は武家の需要により、刀身の身幅が広くなるにともなって、元幅と先幅の差が縮まる。
To meet the needs of the samurai, sword blade was made broader and the difference in breadth between the base and the tip was reduced.​On the other hand, in にしたがって/につれて/にともなって, things do not happen at the same time. Event A must occur before Event B. Event A may or may not be the condition/cause for Event B.
In my own opinion (could be wrong), the casual relationship between Event A and Event B is stronger in にしたがって/にともなって than につれて. For example:
時が経過するにつれて彼の心の傷もいえてきた. 
As time passed, he recovered from his emotional wounds.​にしたがって and にともなって look quite the same to me. I can't tell the difference between them. I googled and found that this site explains some differences between them.


----------



## mikun

lammn said:


> It seems that someone is studying 2-kyuu grammar.
> 
> Sometimes the usage of the four phrases are the same, as in Wishfull's example.
> There are times, however, when they are slightly different.
> 
> Unlike the other three, とともに does not _necessarily_ establish a casual relationship between two things. It just states that two things happen at the _same time_. For example:
> 
> 
> 日本刀は武家の需要により、刀身の身幅が広くなるとともに、元幅と先幅の差が縮まる。
> 日本刀は武家の需要により、刀身の身幅が広くなるにしたがって、元幅と先幅の差が縮まる。
> 日本刀は武家の需要により、刀身の身幅が広くなるにつれて、元幅と先幅の差が縮まる。
> 日本刀は武家の需要により、刀身の身幅が広くなるにともなって、元幅と先幅の差が縮まる。
> To meet the needs of the samurai, sword blade was made broader and the difference in breadth between the base and the tip was reduced.​On the other hand, in にしたがって/につれて/にともなって, things do not happen at the same time. Event A must occur before Event B. Event A may or may not be the condition/cause for Event B.
> In my own opinion (could be wrong), the casual relationship between Event A and Event B is stronger in にしたがって/にともなって than につれて. For example:
> 時が経過するにつれて彼の心の傷もいえてきた.
> As time passed, he recovered from his emotional wounds.​にしたがって and にともなって look quite the same to me. I can't tell the difference between them. I googled and found that this site explains some differences between them.


 
There are several meaning in 'totomoni', 'nisitagatte', and 'niturete'. So, in some cases you can use any these words, but in some cases you must use only one word.
とともに means,
1. something happens simultaneously,
2. different work or different people become together and make action in one situation.
にしたがって　means,
1. something will be done following to other matters change.
2. follow the other people
3. obey other people's opinion with no objection
につれて　means,
1.  something will change according to other matters change.
If the case is '1' we can use any word, but in the case of '2' or '3' we can use only 'にしたがって'　or 'とともに' word.
Is my English understandable?
mikun.


----------



## lammn

Hello Mikun,

I completely understand what you meant.
Somehow I think the thread-starter wanted to compare the phrases used in the sense of case "1" only.
So I didn't mention the other possible meanings of those phrases.

Thanks for your supplements!


----------



## mikun

Hi, lammn
I  thought  following use of 'totomoni' is a second meaning of  'とともに’、so I wrote a  Japanese word dictionary translation. It's my pleasure for helping you. mikun.
1. 日本刀は武家の需要により、刀身の身幅が広くなるとともに、元幅と先幅の差が縮まる。


----------



## Flaminius

Hello mikun,

Welcome to the WordReference forums!

Now, I'd like to ask you something.  What do you mean by this?
I  thought  following use of 'totomoni' is a second meaning of  'とともに’​
Is とともに in the example sentence used in the following sense (By the way, when you quote or translate a work, please, by all means, acknowledge the source: If a hyperlink to the dictionary is not available, provide the title and the entry word)?


> 2. different work or different people become together and make action in one situation.



Perhaps I don't get your numbering method because the other sense better fits the usage:


> 1. something happens simultaneously,



Here, the increase of the overall breadth of the blade does not necessarily result in closing the gap between the base and the tip.  Logically, either can happen without the other.  Thus, the order of the clauses can be flipped (the past tense mine):
元幅と先幅の差が縮まるとともに、刀身の身幅が広くなった。

Other three (にしたがって, につれて, にともなって) cannot flip the order.


----------



## mikun

Hi, Flamius-san
Thanks your comment.
As I don't feel much causal relationship at the word 'nisitagatte' and 'niturete', I have read the sentence by the second meaning of 'nitomonatte'.
I feel 'nishitaggate' and 'niturete' word doesn't need causal relationship, only need continuity of time  . for exsample,
'uta wa yo niture yo wa uta niture' :songs change according to social change and society change according to song change. There are no causal relationship between song and society.
But I think also the sentence can be analysed by the diferrence of simultaneous and continuity. Thanks, mikun.


----------



## Dheara

Mikun...
isn`t there a causal relationship between the fact that the world is changing, and the fact that the world is changing influences the music and the music also influences people ?
Music changes as the world is changes, the act of changing taking place as a consequence... Well, I`m not sure how correct my grammar is, but as i see things, i think that a connection between the world and the music can exist... 

Well, if I remember correctly, my teacher was saying that につれて implies that 2 actions are developing in parallel, and that also event B might be a consequence of event A...
時間が経つにつれて忘れっぽくなる。
Isn`t that imply the idea that AS time passes and passes, he becomes more and more forgetful..., and that the fact that he becomes forgetful ia also a consequence of 時間が経つ？


----------



## Dheara

As you said.. 


mikun said:


> There are several meaning in 'totomoni', 'nisitagatte', and 'niturete'. So, in some cases you can use any these words, but in some cases you must use only one word.(...).
> につれて　means,
> 1.  something will change according to other matters change.
> (...)
> mikun.



This seems to me like a bit of causal relationship between Event A and B


----------



## mikun

Hi, Dheara
I feel strict relationship is not required when we use' につれて'. As you mentioned, many cases will have relationship between event A and event B, but in some cases there is no relationship between A and B. As an example for non-relation ship case, I suggest following,,,,,,,
昭和から平成へと時代が変わるにつれて軍歌は歌われなくなりました。
mikun.


----------



## Dheara

I cite from my own post above:
Well, if I remember correctly, my teacher was saying that につれて implies that 2 actions are developing in parallel, and that also* 
event B might be a consequence of event A...*
I said ``might be``...

This is what I wrote on another forum:
Aにとれて B shows that B is developing along with A and keeps going on because of A... together with A and along with A. 
but AとともにB also shows in some situations that B happens and keeps going on because of A. 自動車が増えるとともに、交通事故も多くなる。

Anyway, this is written in An Intermediate Dictionary of Japanese Grammar：

につれて　→　''used to indicate that a change occurs in accordance to another change.''
= ''as; in proportin to; with''

The difference between につれてand とともにis that in Aにつれて Since the conjunction/compound particle (niturete) expresses change, the verb used in につれて clause and the main clause have to be verbs of change/progress. and the entire sentence shows an action in progress (and this is not necessarily the case with とともに)
1. * 日本語を教えるにつれて、教える事の難しさが分った。（←incorrect sentence!!)
2. 日本語を教えていくにつれて、教える事の難しさが分ってきた。（←correct!)

(I think that とともに can replace につれて here without any change of meaning...)


----------

