# Is America a melting pot?



## panjabigator

panjabigator said:
			
		

> My parents were very afraid of racism and they gave my sister and myself American names to I guess shelter us from that. But they still like the names alot. When I was younger I hated my name because I didnt feel Indian, but now I love it and it really makes a great conversation starter...





			
				Oche Gruso said:
			
		

> I have to ask, what constitutes as an American name? We are such a melting pot that it is hard to tell anymore.





			
				fenixpollo said:
			
		

> I disagree that the US is a melting pot, but that's another thread. I believe that the dominant culture of the US has been, and continues to be, Anglo-Saxon and Protestant. I think most people consider typical/common "American names" to be WASP names. See also post #46 & #51.


 
 I felt I would be going off topic with this if I addressed this in the extraordinary names thread.
Oche Gruso and Fenixpollo have good points here.  The US is made up of so many different races, cultures, people etc. and is a melting pot for that reason.  So Ocho Gruso has a good point here....anything can be an American na,e.  But I cant help agree with Fenixpollo here...I feel that mainly "WASP" names are accepted as American.  I hope I didnt offend anyone!


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## nijinzka

Well since Im in Canada Ive heard that USA is a melting pot and Canada the Salad plate or something like that.
But I dont agree very much with that idea.
USA the last few years have become kinda racist, specially with the whole migration thing and in the other hand I won't deny that it is a mix of different cultures.
Globalization it is helping, and I think that is more the case of *panjabigator. *
It is interesting what you said because it all depends of the way you see it. When we talk about "American Names" we reffer to names that are pretty common in the USA (for what we see in the movies, tv, what we hear in popular songs, etc).

*Sorry if I offend you I dont meant to
hehe and I hope Im clear with that Im trying to say


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## Outsider

Here is a related earlier discussion:

U.S. Culture -- What are its Origins?


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## french4beth

Here's an interesting article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/meltingpot/melt0222.htm

Whenever there are difficult economic times, it's always very easy to target an economically disadvantaged group such as low-income immigrants. This is true world-wide, not just in the US - look at the rising level of ultraconservative religious groups and racist, anti-immigration protesters.

I don't think that people in general accept others that are different than they are; if they have an open mind, however, and can interact with one another on a personal level, hopefully positive relations will happen.


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## emma42

To me, an Englishwoman, America does appear to be a melting pot.  I see it as many countries within one country.

The names, Dirk, Bill, Clint etc all conjure up a certain type of American.  Similarly, Hilary, Sylvia and Henry another;  Nateesha, Latoya another; Miguel, Rosita another...

When I think of the American middle classes, though, I nearly always think of WASPs, with possibly one or two educated black people thrown in.


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## mytwolangs

The problem is that this IS america, and immigrants often wan to come here and try to hold onto their native culture. 
If one moves to another country, one must assimilate to that country's customs. 
America is about business, money. That is our culture. Those who migrate illegally and end up having to live off welfare are a burden to our economy. Their offspring end up being problems. 

I find it interesting that so many other countries seem to hate America and it's customs, yet they want to come here and live. There is no problem with wanting to live in another country, but learn the language and assimilate and do the legal stuff. Don't just barge in and demand rights to be there.

To go to another country uninvited and illegally and scream about "having some God given right" is NO different than walking into someone else's house and demanding accomidation. Would you want someone to walk into your living space and demand a place to rest and eat free out of your fridge?


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## danielfranco

mytwolangs said:
			
		

> Would you want someone to walk into your living space and demand a place to rest and eat free out of your fridge?


 
I keep telling my wife to let me say that precisely, to my mother in law...

No, not really. 
But I'd find it a bit difficult to be all huffy and territorial if someone walked into my living space and washed my underwear, walked my dog (and cleaned up after it and kept it clean), cooked my food, grew my vegetables, washed the dishes, mowed the lawn, washed the windows, etc. etc. etc. (all the things I have to drag myself by the neck to do if I want them done) and then demanded a place to rest (in any corner I chose) and to buy his food from my fridge out of the money I paid him, if I did.

But never mind all that... Analogies have a funny way of falling short, don't know why...

I think America is not really a melting pot. I think all the people that contribute with their personal cultural practices that they bring with them from another country manage to alter the "American Way" a little bit with them, but end up all mixed up into the idea of what America is (which, for the life of me, I can't define yet...) in the end. They end up as Americans. The idea of a melting pot, at least to me, is that we all alter and influence each other in the same degree, and I don't think that's what happens in this country.
However, it may very well be just a regional perception, and I may need to go and travel to all 50 states and meet most of the 300 million people that are part of the USA to have a better perspective.


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## maxiogee

mytwolangs said:
			
		

> The problem is that this IS america, and immigrants often wan to come here and try to hold onto their native culture.
> *If one moves to another country, one must assimilate to that country's customs. *
> America is about business, money. That is our culture. Those who migrate illegally and end up having to live off welfare are a burden to our economy. *Their offspring end up being problems. *
> 
> I find it interesting that so many other countries seem to hate America and it's customs, yet they want to come here and live. There is no problem with wanting to live in another country, *but learn the language and assimilate and do the legal stuff. Don't just barge in and demand rights to be there.*
> 
> *To go to another country uninvited and illegally and scream about "having some God given right" is NO different than walking into someone else's house and demanding accomidation.* Would you want someone to walk into your living space and demand a place to rest and eat free out of your fridge?



Yeah — Right on!
When the first white folks got to America they adapted to the local culture, took to the local language and didn't live off the charity of the locals.
They didn't demand food and accommodation, they didn't shout about God, and their offspring were never a problem.

mytwolangs - get a grip. Have you not heard that the rest of the world knows how the native Americans were treated by the hordes of immigrants they faced?


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## emma42

Yes, mytwolangs, I am afraid that your comments illlustrate three separate assumptions about immigrants:

*The problem is immigrants often want to come here and try to hold on to their native culture*

*Those who migrate illegally and end up having to live off welfare are a burden to our economy.  Their offspring end up being problems*

*There is no problem with wanting to live in another country, but learn the language and assimilate and do the legal stuff..*

Unfortunately, the right wing in my country often make the same claims about immigrants, when the facts rarely coincide with the assumptions.

You seem to be saying that immigrants largely come to America illegally, refuse to learn the language (which one?), refuse to adapt to local custom, insist on keeping some of their own culture (how dare they?), live off welfare and produce offspring who also come to be a burden on the country (these foreigners are always soo lazy).

Is this what you really believe?  Could it not be that there are many immigrants who relocate and actually want to work, to make friends and to educate their children to make a better life?  This is what most people want, so why not immigrants?  I do not know about the situation in America, but in England, it is often extremely difficult for immigrants to find decent work and many of them will do _anything _to keep themselves and their families and make a contribution to their adopted country.  

I have no doubt that there are some immigrants who live on welfare and refuse to assimilate, but I do not believe they are in the majority.  They are not in England and I see no reason why human nature should change because people are on the other side of the big pond.

The problem I have with what you have said is that it does not try to show any other point of view re immigrants than, what appears to me to be a typical uninformed right wing rant against a common scapegoat.


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## djchak

Is this thread about America being a melting pot (or not), or is it about ILLEGAL immigration? 

Becuase most americans want immigration, they just want to to work better.

This is not a case of "left wing or neo con right wing". ILLEGAL immigration is about economics and legalities.


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## emma42

djchak, I was merely dealing with what had been said in another post.

If you think the thread is going off topic, tell a mod.


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## GenJen54

*Mod NOTE: 

*We already have SEVERAL, and I do mean SEVERAL recent threads on immigration. Please search for them. Please add to them. Please use this thread to discuss the issue brought forth by panjabigator: 

*Is America a melting pot? **

You may discuss the role immigrants play in this. 

You may not discuss immigration - illegal and otherwise - as a general political topic in this thread.

Thank you. 

GenJen54
Moderator

*


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## Bastoune

nijinzka said:
			
		

> Well since Im in Canada Ive heard that USA is a melting pot and Canada the Salad plate or something like that.
> But I dont agree very much with that idea.
> USA the last few years have become kinda racist, specially with the whole migration thing and in the other hand I won't deny that it is a mix of different cultures.
> Globalization it is helping, and I think that is more the case of *panjabigator. *
> It is interesting what you said because it all depends of the way you see it. When we talk about "American Names" we reffer to names that are pretty common in the USA (for what we see in the movies, tv, what we hear in popular songs, etc).
> 
> *Sorry if I offend you I dont meant to
> hehe and I hope Im clear with that Im trying to say


 
And the Mexican policy toward foreigners is more fair?


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## djchak

emma42 said:
			
		

> djchak, I was merely dealing with what had been said in another post.
> 
> If you think the thread is going off topic, tell a mod.



I was just asking for clarification. GenJen answered it.

Anyway, I think positive. 

America is a melting pot. Does that mean it melts every ingredient, and dilutes them all? No. Some people have said it's a yummy salad, with lots of dressing.


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## tecate

Great, thoughtful response from #7.  And you should definitely travel around if you get a chance; the country is so diverse it's almost like travelling to different nations at times!


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## djchak

nijinzka said:
			
		

> Well since Im in Canada Ive heard that USA is a melting pot and Canada the Salad plate or something like that.
> But I dont agree very much with that idea.
> USA the last few years have become kinda racist, specially with the whole migration thing and in the other hand I won't deny that it is a mix of different cultures.
> Globalization it is helping, and I think that is more the case of *panjabigator. *
> It is interesting what you said because it all depends of the way you see it. When we talk about "American Names" we reffer to names that are pretty common in the USA (for what we see in the movies, tv, what we hear in popular songs, etc).
> 
> *Sorry if I offend you I dont meant to
> hehe and I hope Im clear with that Im trying to say



That wasn't offensive...but (to add to the discussion) I have to ask...why do you think the US has become racist in the last few years?

Do you perhaps mean more paranoid or isolationist, since, say 9/11?

And about globalization... outside of the US it is often view as synonymous with "Americanization".... as in the KFC opening is Syria......

It's true that becuase the USA and it's laws derive from the English immigrants of the 1600's , that "WASP" names will be assumed to be  American... but that doesn't mean that non "WASP" names are not American. If anything, names with mixed nationality references like:

Zian Smith
Connie Chung
Veronica Banarjee
Peter Ian Obesanje

are deemed to be MORE american, as they are not common.


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## fenixpollo

For me, the "melting pot" metaphor suggests that all of the cultures and viewpoints mix together to form a new, stronger whole. It comes from the image of a crucible in which different alloys are mixed to form a new metal.  This implies that the original culture is changed to an equal degree as the immigrant cultures.

The "salad" metaphor suggests that each culture is distinctly visible within the country and adds its own flavor to the taste of the salad.  This implies that you can taste individual flavors of each culture.

I don't think either metaphor applies to the US, because every immigrant (or original resident) that wants success in this country has been forced to assimilate into the dominant culture -- which is based primarily on Protestant, Western European (especially English) values.  Neither the salad nor the melting pot accurately describe this assimilation.

We need to find another metaphor. I suggest that America is not a melting pot, nor is it a salad, but instead is a Borg hive ship.

Resistance is futile.


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## french4beth

> Yeah — Right on!
> When the first white folks got to America they adapted to the local culture, took to the local language and didn't live off the charity of the locals.
> They didn't demand food and accommodation, they didn't shout about God, and their offspring were never a problem.
> 
> mytwolangs - get a grip. Have you not heard that the rest of the world knows how the native Americans were treated by the hordes of immigrants they faced?


Thank you, maxiogee!   

I was watching the American comedian, Carlos Mencia, last night. He started off introducing a guest on his show as one of the few people that could truly speak about immigration in the US. He then proceeded to bring out a Native American! As Carlos said, to the Native Americans, we're all immigrants!.



			
				fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Neither the salad nor the melting pot accurately describe this assimilation. We need to find another metaphor. I suggest that America is not a melting pot, nor is it a salad, but instead is a Borg hive ship. Resistance is futile. *too true, fenixpollo!*


I agree! From Star Trek - see here, emma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg


> *Borg* ...a race of cyborgs ... known ...for their relentless pursuit of what they want to assimilate, their rapid adaptability to almost any defense, and their ability to continue functioning after what may seem a devastating or even fatal blow seemingly unaffected... a powerful symbol in popular culture for any seemingly unstoppable force against which "resistance is futile"...  process... of the loss of psychological identity ... The resulting collective identity is known as a hive mind, in which all indications of individual thought and identity are non-existant.


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## maxiogee

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> I don't think either metaphor applies to the US, because every immigrant (or original resident) that wants success in this country has…



… to come up with their own understanding of what constitutes "success"?

Not everyone  buys into the usual concept of $u¢¢€$$


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## emma42

Steady on, he could well have meant work, happiness.


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## fenixpollo

Yes, each person defines success in their own way, but I meant "success" in terms of being accepted by/into the power structure.

In the Star Trek series of television and cinema, the Borg are a race of half-machines whose goal is to assimilate all societies of intelligent beings into their hive. They make first contact with an alien race by saying "We are Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."  Much like saying "You are either with us or you are with our enemies."


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## maxiogee

emma42 said:
			
		

> Steady on, he could well have meant work, happiness.



Yes, and even in that one must define one's own concept of success.


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## Fernando

Strangely enough I am a freakie rather thana trekkie and I had not acknowledged the reference.

I think Founding Fathers are far from having Borgian (1) caractheristics. If so, they have had a very limited success. Every bee has given something to the hive before being assimilated. The only case of traumatic assimilation (or partial destruction) have been beared by Indians (Native Am.)

(1) Neither from Borg nor from Borgia


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## emma42

I think, perhaps, fenixpollo was referring to the result, rather than the process?


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## vince

A melting pot is not the same as total assimilation, nor is it the same as the Canadian "mosaic" model.

In a melting pot, new immigrants blend into the pot, but in the process, they contribute their country of origin's culture to the mainstream culture. Eventually they become naturalized citizens and part of the mainstream culture just like anyone else (hence the "melting"). But in the process, the overall flavor of the entire pot is modified slightly by the addition of these immigrants. In this way, the country's overall culture slowly evolves based on the composition of its most recently naturalized immigrants.

The problem with a lot of right-wing neocons is that they believe that their WASP culture is THE American culture. Currently, this is still to some degree correct. But as the wave of Hispanic immigrants naturalize and start to view themselves as American just like everyone else, overall American culture will start to take on Hispanic elements, not just among the children of immigrants, but eventually throughout the nation.

The other two systems are total assimilation, where immigrants are required to completely change themselves toward the static mainstream culture, and Canadian mosaic, where immigrants and their Canadian-born children are encouraged to keep cultural ties with their "ethnic homeland", keep speaking their language, and celebrating their traditions.

The problem with total assimilation is: the culture remains static in the face of globalization. There is little room for innovative cultural products that can evolve the nation's culture.

And the Canadian mosaic has obvious problems: ethnicity is tied to culture
, leading to an "enlightened racism" based on ethnicity instead of just mere skin color. You have voluntary segregation of (sometimes well-off) ethnic groups that coexist side-by-side but seldom interact socially. There is also little to hold the country's citizens together, leading to divided loyalties between Canada and the "ancestral land" (which many identify with but have never been to).

Is America a melting pot? I don't know if there is a true melting pot anywhere in the world, but I believe that America is much more of a melting pot than Canada. The problem is with illegal immigration which hinders cultural naturalization since people have to stay underground to avoid the INS. So in this respect America is not a melting pot, there is segregation of Mexican immigrants. And also the African-American population with their separate and distinct culture that I can't see blending into mainstream American culture due to racism, both historical and present, practiced by both non-African-Americans and by many African-Americans on themselves.


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## djchak

DING DING DING! We have a winner, and his name is Vince from Ontario!

Do we have to mention neo cons every time though? They are not the only ones who think that way...and not every "neo con" is white...Francis Fukyama anyone?

And, unfortunately, we have Democrats like Zell Miller....and we all know how the southern dems were back in the 60's.....

All i'm saying is that prejudice doesn't "belong" to a certain party..in America everyone is free to be an idiot.


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## fenixpollo

emma, I think chak was just being playful in his agreement with vince. he appears to be a neocon in denial, though.  

vince, your definition of melting pot is similar to mine, yet you feel that the US fits the definition because the culture is being changed by the new immigrants. that's one thing we disagree on. i don't think you can count taco bell as a significant change or addition to the culture by hispanic immigrants. 

p.s. careful about your assumptions: not all spanish-speaking immigrants are mexican, not all illegal aliens are mexican, and not all mexicans are illegal immigrants.


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## djchak

emma42 said:
			
		

> djchak, may I ask, with respect, that you keep the tone "cordial and academic" as outlined in the Forum Rules and Guidelines? Thank you.


Fenix is correct. Must I put smileys after every sentence? 

Perhaps it wasn't "academic", but it certainly was cordial.


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## vince

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> emma, I think chak was just being playful in his agreement with vince. he appears to be a neocon in denial, though.
> 
> vince, your definition of melting pot is similar to mine, yet you feel that the US fits the definition because the culture is being changed by the new immigrants. that's one thing we disagree on. i don't think you can count taco bell as a significant change or addition to the culture by hispanic immigrants.
> 
> p.s. careful about your assumptions: not all spanish-speaking immigrants are mexican, not all illegal aliens are mexican, and not all mexicans are illegal immigrants.



Hmm about the Taco Bell thing, it may not be a significant change, but in a way, it is an addition to American culture brought by Hispanic immigrants. American-style tacos and burritos are now an American food, distinct from "genuine" Mexican tacos and burritos. They are a part of American cuisine, just like pizza (again distinct from the original Italian) and hot dogs (distinct from German/Austrian sausages like Vienna sausages (Wieners) and Frankfurters), that all Americans consume without thinking of its ethnic origin.

As you can see, the melting pot model changes the mainstream culture, but in a diluted, evolutionary form. Except for short-term fads, You will rarely see an outright adoption of a cultural aspect of an immigrant community.


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## maxiogee

djchak said:
			
		

> Fenix is correct. Must I put smileys after every sentence?



It helps, I've found, due to the variety of forer@s' grasp of English.


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## djchak

vince said:
			
		

> Hmm about the Taco Bell thing, it may not be a significant change, but in a way, it is an addition to American culture....
> 
> As you can see, the melting pot model changes the mainstream culture, but in a diluted, evolutionary form. Except for short-term fads, You will rarely see an outright adoption of a cultural aspect of an immigrant community.



Oh god. Taco bell? 

I would have to say, the mexican taco stands in most of the US are actually Tex/mex .... which is an " outright adoption of a cultural aspect" of the Hispanics who were living in Texas back before it was US land. You see, in Mexico, the style of food is different. Tex Mex is like real Mexican food on steriods, made to appeal to the gringos of the time. But everyone here calls it Mexican food, blissfully unaware of the change. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tex-Mex_cuisine


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## vince

If a Mexican wouldn't call Tex-Mex food Mexican, then it is not outright adoption.

Just like how an Italian wouldn't call American pizza Italian.
Or a German wouldn't call a hotdog German.


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## djchak

But most of the time they do, becuase it's close enough. (And that's the point)

But no Mexican would ever call "Taco Bell" Mexican!

All i'm saying is there are degrees of "dilution". I am not disagreeing with your main premise, just pointing out the grey areas.


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## JazzByChas

Well....after reading all the posts here, I would have to say, that American (and many other countries in this day and age) are "melting pots." There is still a predominant British-European flavor to those who are in power in this country, albeit fading slowly but surely. When other cultures come to this country, they "melt" into the predominant culture and change the chemistry of the culture with their addition, similar to adding spices to a dish...it may not change it drastically, but it is changed, imperceptably though it may be.

The USA, like other countries, has had an influx of immigrants from other cultures for almost all of its history, and all those cultures add to our own. We are certainly becoming more aware of the fact that our Hispanic neighbors are in sufficient numbers that a lot of signs, posters, and billboards are in both English and Spanish. Similarly, because of our French-Canadian neighbors to the north, you will see a lot of French in instructions, although not (as much) in public signs.

The cultures and cuisines of all of our immigrants, to a greater or lesser degree, have influenced our culture, and I say, we are the better for it. I have mentioned in other threads that "variety is the spice of life," and I believe that as long as America (and other countries) allows people of different Ethnic orgins and cultures to participate in its day-to-day life, then we, as Americans, will find ourselves better for it.

_Cultural note: "Caucasians" are not White Europeans, but Asians from the Caucasus mountain region, i.e. Arabs. See __here__, and __here_


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