# Litigare con



## Salbina

Hi everybody,

all these expressions (and I'm sure there are many others!) can be translated as "litigare, avere un diverbio", but how would you order them in a scale from the slightest to the heaviest?

Thank you


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## Alxmrphi

"all these expressions"....

Che espressioni?


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## Salbina

Alex_Murphy said:


> "all these expressions"....
> 
> Che espressioni?


 

Ops! I messed things up with the title, sorry!  The expressions are "Argue/have a row-fight-quarrel-argument-rift".


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## Alxmrphi

*a rift* - una seperazione, non bisogna succedere un litigo.

* quarrel *- vuol dire un diverbio (credo)... ma può voler dire che due persone non sono d'accordo su un argomento/una tematica, vuol dire qualcosa di leggero, non è forza.

* argue *- questa parola può significare molte diverse cose, bisogna più contesto per scoprirne il contesto specifico.

* have a row* - come "quarrel" ma molto più forza, la gente sono arrabbiata.

* fight* - anche questa può voler troppe diverse cose, forse un litigo vero, le altre parole sono tutte un litigo nel parlato, questa anche significa lo stesso, ma se si tratta di un "fight" nel parlato vuol dire che c'è stato un ligito e non si è risoluto, le persone ancora non si vogliono parlare.

Si dice anche - *fall out* / *disagreement*.


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## della_malo

Di quarrel- penso che sia un po' antica. No.  È antica!

have a row- Non si usa qui (US), credo che sia una parole di...British English.

You can scale a fight from less to more intense by just adding adjectives:
for example, a little fight/argument, a huge fight.


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## Alxmrphi

Intendi che la parola "row" non si usa in AE, o "have a row" non è usato, in tale caso credo che sia meglio dire "modo di dire" invece di "parola".

Chowchow.


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## Zenof

Alex_Murphy said:


> *a rift* - una seperazione divergenza, non bisogna succedere  ne consegue un litig*i*o.
> 
> *quarrel *- vuol dire un diverbio (credo)... ma può voler dire che due persone non sono d'accordo su un argomento/una tematica, vuol dire qualcosa di leggero, non è forza.
> 
> *argue *- questa parola può significare molte diverse cose, c'è bisogn*o* di più contesto per scoprirne il contesto specifico.
> 
> *have a row* - come "quarrel" ma molto più forza, la gente  le persone sono arrabbiate.
> 
> *fight* - anche questa può voler dire troppe cose diverse cose, forse un litig*i*o vero, le altre parole sono tutte un litig*i*o nel parlato, anche questa anche significa lo stesso, ma se si tratta di un "fight" nel parlato vuol dire che c'è stato un litig*i*o e non si è risoluto, le persone ancora non si vogliono parlare rivologono la parola.
> 
> Si dice anche - *fall out* / *disagreement*.


 
Sorry Alex
I hope you don't mind


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## raisetheflavour

Hi Salbina

Here you are:

*Quarrel, dispute, fight, disagree, row, bicker, squabble, argue, wrangle, altercation.*


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## Paulfromitaly

Alex_Murphy said:


> Intendi che la parola "row" non si usa in AE, o "have a row" non è usato,



I think many AE speakers are not familiar with the expression "have a row" and not even with the term _row_ to mean argument.


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## Alxmrphi

Thanks for the corrections, but can you clarify if you have "corrected" errors, or "made it a bit better"..

Like changing "la gente è arrabbiata" to "le persone sono arrabbiate", was the first one just wrong? It's important for me to know what is a corrected error and what is just "*correct.... but this would be better*", because now it seems to be that "la gente è arrabbiata" was wrong... but I know it's not incorrect.

I hope you understand


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## Einstein

For me the difference between a _row_ and an _argument_ is that the _argument_ becomes a _row_ when voices are raised.

Row can also mean a lot of loud noises: _That machine makes a terrible row._


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## maurizioromano

Sono perplesso. Il madrelingua Alex Murphy non si sbilancia a dare una "scala" perché asserisce che troppe cose dipendono dal contesto mentre raistheflavour ha una risposta ben precisa. Per favore,raisetheflavour, potresti dare un'indicazione sulla fonte che hai consultato?


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## Alxmrphi

Quello che ho spiegato era i significati senza aggettivi, e se si aggiunge un aggettivo alle parola, certamente il significato cambierebbe.
Ma questo ho detto solo per due parole (argue, fight), per le altre (have a row, quarrel, a rift), ero molto più preciso,

raisetheflower ha postato numerose parole che si trattano di questa tema, senza spiegazioni precise..

allora non ho capito quello che intendevi dire affatto
(A meno che non ti abbia capito io tuo messaggio.)

?????


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## Zenof

Alex_Murphy said:


> Thanks for the corrections, but can you clarify if you have "corrected" errors, or "made it a bit better"..
> 
> Like changing "la gente è arrabbiata" to "le persone sono arrabbiate", was the first one just wrong? It's important for me to know what is a corrected error and what is just "*correct.... but this would be better*", because now it seems to be that "la gente è arrabbiata" was wrong... but I know it's not incorrect.
> 
> I hope you understand


 

You wrote _la gente sono arrabbiata_  _gente_ is singular 
La gente è arrabbiata  is correct but in this case is better _persone; gente _means_ un insieme di persone_ and usually you mean a lot of people

_troppe diverse cose_  
_troppe cose diverse/belle/uguali_

_Divergenza_ is the word you use when you disagree with someone, the opposit of thinking alike. (_divergenze_ _d'opinioni/e_)
With _separazione_ you mean something like a physical separation 

_Bisogna_ _succedere_  _bisogna che succeda/accada_
In this case you are talking about a consequence, and _bisogna_ doesn't sound at all. You can use a synonim like _è necessario_

Hope I was clear


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## Alxmrphi

Ah, grazie per la chiarifazione

Ma un'altra cosa..."a rift" è una seperazione fisica.... vuol dire che adesso non si vedono o non si incontrono più.
Veramente non dovrebbe una parte di questa lista dato che non ha la sfumatura di una divergenza.

"cose uguali" - non vuol dire "equal things" ? - questo esempio hai fatto solo per mostrarmi come è usata con aggettivi, o dici che quei aggettivi qui hanno lo stesso significato?!?! (Credo la prima cosa... vero?)


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## Zenof

Alex_Murphy said:


> Ah, grazie per la chiarifazione_chiarificazione_/_precisazione_
> 
> Ma un'altra cosa..."a rift" è una seperazione fisica.... vuol dire che adesso non si vedono o non si incontr*a*no più.
> Veramente non dovrebbe una parte di questa lista dato che non ha la sfumatura di una divergenza.
> 
> "cose uguali" - non vuol dire "equal things" ? - questo esempio hai fatto solo per mostrarmi come è usata con aggettivi, o dici che quei aggettivi qui hanno lo stesso significato?!?! (Credo la prima cosa... vero?)


 
Oh, sorry  but when you wrote _non bisogna succedere un litigio_, I understood that it was something like a light argument, that surely it didn't become a row... 
If you say they don't see each other anymore after a rift, well in Italian it would be _un brutto litigio _then
Could you explain the meaning in English please? Certainly I got it completely wrong; 

Yes _cose_ _uguali_ means "same things" and I wrote it just to let you see how to use it with adjectives.


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## Alxmrphi

Zenof said:


> Yes _cose_ _uguali_ means "same things" and I wrote it just to let you see how to use it with adjectives.


Grazie! It confused me when you put "Troppe diverse cose"  and "Troppe cose diverse/uguali"  ... now I see what you meant...

"a rift" means "a seperation"... a fight doesn't need to have happened (what I meant by non _bisogno che succede un litigio_).

However, a rift can happen AFTER an argument/fight .. as it means a separation, but the actual "rift" is just a process of separation, not something in which people argue/shout at each other.

It's like to d*rift* apart.....


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## raisetheflavour

Caro Maurizioromano 

Il madre lingua Alex Murphy ha ragione a dire di non sbilanciarsi perche` non c'e` una ragione specifica per i termini che io ho scritto sopra.  Io pensavo che Salbina volesse sapere se ci fossero altre espessioni riguardo il litigio, io le ho fornite. 

However, I'll do my best to let you know the meaning of those words,  see below:

*Quarrel or bicker* - An arguement, specially on about something unimportant between people who know each other. (Battibecco)

*Dispute*- A serious disagreement.

*Fight-* If people or animals fights, they hit, kick, bite each other ( questo anche per guerre e guerriglie, usando le armi)

*Disagree-* To have an opinion that is different from the opinion that another person has.

*Row, Altercation* - A nosy argument

*Argue*- Pople speak to each other in a angry way.

*Wrangle* - To argue about something for a long time, especially an angry and unpleasant way.


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## Alxmrphi

I don't recognise wrangle.... and bearing in mind fight can be an argument and doesn't have to be something physical... good job!

Actually.. dispute doesn't have to be serious at all, it means a disagreement, it can be quite a mild thing sometimes.
Like in.. let's say paperwork/forms if someone prints something about someone else, they have the option to "dispute" it... which means register that they disagree with a part of what has been printed, so that the company that printed it, double-checks..

But I guess we're talking about people mainly in this thread... still I think it encompasses something serious and also something that isn't, it's just like "disagree" IMHO.


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## maurizioromano

raisetheflavour said:


> Caro Maurizioromano
> 
> Il madre lingua Alex Murphy ha ragione a dire di non sbilanciarsi perche` non c'e` una ragione specifica per i termini che io ho scritto sopra.  Io pensavo che Salbina volesse sapere se ci fossero altre espessioni riguardo il litigio, io le ho fornite.
> 
> However, I'll do my best to let you know the meaning of those words,  see below:
> 
> *Quarrel or bicker* - An arguement, specially on about something unimportant between people who know each other. (Battibecco)
> 
> *Dispute*- A serious disagreement.
> 
> *Fight-* If people or animals fights, they hit, kick, bite each other ( questo anche per guerre e guerriglie, usando le armi)
> 
> *Disagree-* To have an opinion that is different from the opinion that another person has.
> 
> *Row, Altercation* - A nosy argument
> 
> *Argue*- Pople speak to each other in a angry way.
> 
> *Wrangle* - To argue about something for a long time, especially an angry and unpleasant way.



Grazie, tutto molto più chiaro, adesso.
Alex non riconosce wrangle ma in effetti il dizionario "English definition" di Wordreference è piuttosto chiaro a tal proposito (significato 2 di "wrangle" inteso come nome).
Certo, la prossima volta che infilerò un Wrangler non potrò più far a meno di pensare, invece che ad un cowboy, che sto indossando un... attaccabrighe!


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## Salbina

Ottimo, grazie! What about "brush"? "Scaramuccia"?


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## Alxmrphi

Haha I know what you mean, it's common knowledge how the Americans think of the English, with Benny Hill and Monty Python, about 40 years behind, it is actually quite surprising in this modern day that main accent they use to imitate us hasn't been in existence for decades, I met a few Americans over in Australia when I was over there and a lot of them just starting using such old fashioned words and accents and asked me why I didn't speak like that.

Britcoms shown in America, not a good way to judge British English! (in this day and age at least! )


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## raisetheflavour

Salbina said:


> Ottimo, grazie! What about "brush"? "Scaramuccia"?


 
Ciao Salbina

*Skirmish =* Scaramuccia
*Brush =* Breve scontro


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## Salbina

raisetheflavour said:


> Ciao Salbina
> 
> *Skirmish =* Scaramuccia
> *Brush =* Breve scontro




Oooh, "skirmish"! I love it! Thank you Raisetheflavour (and everybody)!


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## Alxmrphi

Skirmish... è qualcosa che tratta di una guerra... medievale.... ??


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## Salbina

Alex_Murphy said:


> Skirmish... è qualcosa che tratta di una guerra... medievale.... ??



Mannaggia...mi piaceva così tanto! Ma in italiano abbiamo "schermaglia", che allude proprio ad un duello con le spade (anche se ovviamente attualmente ha un senso figurato) e suona ricercato ma non medievale. Dici che se me ne esco con una "skirmish" non mi capisce nessuno?


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## Alxmrphi

Capirebbe la parola.. ma forse ti darebbe uno sguardo perplesso
Il senso in inglese è solo letterale, non figurativo, sfortunamente.

OH MY GOD......... (Edit btw)

Ho controllato i dizionari e dicono che può essere usata per un "verbal dispute/arguement"..............
Questa non l'ho mai sentito.... non ci posso credere, NESSUNO la dice come questo... assolutamente nessuno.
Sono in shock.

Non sono una persona maleducato, e conosco benissimo la mia lingua, allora, il consiglio veramente non cambia.... non usarla mai come questo perché nessuno ti capirebbe.


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## You little ripper!

Tiff and spat are two other words to describe a *minor argument*. A barney and a ding-dong are two terms which mean a *noisy argument*, and are used in both the U.K. and Australia.


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## Einstein

Back to skirmish! I don't think it corresponds with schermaglia. It's not a duel between two people but a minor battle in war, a small clash involving only a few soldiers on each side.

AlexM, to me quarrel sounds more formal than out of date. I probably wouldn't say that _I quarreled with my brother yesterday_, but I might well use the word in writing or if I were testifying in court.

As for accents, the point is that the accent known to the Americans, thanks to the BBC and politicians, was never the majority accent in Britain, it just dominated the media and official life.


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## giovannino

I think that what Alex says only applies to informal spoken English. I've often seen "skirmish" used in newspapers to refer, for example, to a heated debate in parliament: _There was a short skirmish between the political party leaders when the government announced it was to raise taxes (Cambridge)_

*skirmish *2 a short argument, especially between political or sports opponents _Bates was sent off after a skirmish with the referee._
_a budget skirmish between the President and Congress_
_(Longman)_


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## Alxmrphi

giovannino said:


> I think that what Alex says only applies to informal spoken English. I've often seen "skirmish" used in newspapers to refer, for example, to a heated debate in parliament: _There was a short skirmish between the political party leaders when the government announced it was to raise taxes (Cambridge)_
> 
> *skirmish *2 a short argument, especially between political or sports opponents _Bates was sent off after a skirmish with the referee._
> _a budget skirmish between the President and Congress_
> _(Longman)_



Well I'm always watching the news and reading newspapers and I can categorically say I've never come across this, ever.



			
				Einstein said:
			
		

> Back to skirmish! I don't think it corresponds with schermaglia. It's not a duel between two people but a minor battle in war, a small clash involving only a few soldiers on each side.



 exactly!


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## giovannino

Alex_Murphy said:


> Well I'm always watching the news and reading newspapers and I can categorically say I've never come across this, ever.


 
Well, although the Cambridge and Longman dictionaries don't label it as an AE usage, it may well be that it is more common in AE. The following quotes from Google are from U.S. sources:

_Alan Casden on the short end in latest skirmish with brother_

_Job-discrimination bill ignites latest skirmish over gay rights_

This one, however, is from the UK:

_Tony Blair and his mortal enemy, Ming Campbell, engage in a bitter skirmish over the crisis in Lebanon_
_(commentary accompanying a YouTube video of Blair and Campbell clashing in the Commons)_


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## Zenof

I think that _skirmish_ can be translated as _scaramuccia_

Zanichelli: _scaramuccia_ - scontro non decisivo e di breve durata tra pattuglie o reparti armati di scarsa consistenza - (fig.) piccola polemica, breve scontro. Sinonimi: contesa, contrasto e schermaglia 

_schermaglia:_ battaglia, duello di spada - (fig.) sottile scambio polemico, contrasto di opinioni

_contesa_: contrasto, controversia, polemica - 
ex: essere/stare/venire a/in contesa - litigare, sia con parole sia con i fatti


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## GavinW

giovannino said:


> Well, although the Cambridge and Longman dictionaries don't label it as an AE usage, it may well be that it is more common in AE.


 
Skirmish? Fine by me. All your examples ring true for me (and I'm a Brit). From which we may glean that, when we're not talking medieval knights (or even modern commandoes...), then this kind of clash is usually 
a) verbal; and 
b) involving a formal debate (hence the frequent political contexts).


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## Alxmrphi

Hi Gavin, would you say you've heard/read it more than 5 times in the past 5 years?


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## GavinW

Alex_Murphy said:


> Hi Gavin, would you say you've heard/read it more than 5 times in the past 5 years?


 
Yep, comfortably so, I guess (although your question is not one I'm used to considering, in those terms...).


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## Alxmrphi

Even though you've been living in Italy? I just can't get my head around it.


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## Einstein

I have to take Gavin's word for it, but certainly I'm used to considering a skirmish as a preliminary small-scale clash before the big battle (also metaphorically but in this sense) and not just as a synonym of row or argument.
Its use in politics seems to fit in with a characteristic of American journalism, which tends to use medieval terms which I'm sure normal Americans don't use. For example we see articles about someone being "slain" instead of killed or murdered. Again medieval knights come to mind!


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## Alxmrphi

Exactly, I am totally 100% in agreement with you Einstein, but I guess I'll also take Gavin's word for it as well.

Anyone else got anything to bring to the (*round*) table? hehehe


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## raisetheflavour

Hi Alex

Salbina would like to know if you all can you translate the word *scaramuccia*  in English.

Ciao
RTF


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## Einstein

To RTF: Zenof gave an excellent definition of *scaramuccia* which corresponds exactly with *skirmish* in English.


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## raisetheflavour

Einstein said:


> To RTF: Zenof gave an excellent definition of *scaramuccia* which corresponds exactly with *skirmish* in English.


 
To Einsten

Thank you very much indeed


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## Alxmrphi

I thought Salbina said "If I say skirmish would anyone would understand me" ?
I don't know the word scaramuccia, well not until yesterday, so I really don't know.


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## raisetheflavour

Alex_Murphy said:


> I thought Salbina said "If I say skirmish would anyone would understand me" ?
> I don't know the word scaramuccia, well not until yesterday, so I really don't know.


 
Hi again Alex

I'm learning new words everyday, especially when I go somehere outside London. 
Some people in here (WR) said that skirmish sounds medieval but in Italy the word scaramuccia is still in use.
Ciao
RTF


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## Einstein

Maybe we've overstated the medieval aspect, but it certainly sounds military. What Alex and I find strange is its metaphorical use in the place of argument or row.

PS Years ago I knew some students from Birmingham University who used to talk about a "skirmish" between two people, meaning they had sex!


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## Salbina

I've really enjoyed the debate among British guys about how medieval "skirmish" would sound and the statistics about its use in the last 5 years and...no more strange synonims, don't worry, sir Alex_Murphy!  

I think I got how "skirmish" should be used (con parsimonia, senza dubbio...), it doesn't seem to me very different from the usage we do of "scaramuccia, schermaglia", especially in the journalists language, as Einstein said about US.

Thank you so much everybody!


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## raisetheflavour

Einstein said:


> Maybe we've overstated the medieval aspect, but it certainly sounds military. What Alex and I find strange is its metaphorical use in the place of argument or row.
> 
> PS Years ago I knew some students from Birmingham University who used to talk about a "skirmish" between two people, meaning they had sex!


 
To Einstein

 These three icons don't make justice, I burst into a laughing. Peole are really mad, ha ha ha
Ciao 
Raise


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## Salbina

Alex_Murphy said:


> Capirebbe la parola.. ma forse ti darebbe uno sguardo perplesso
> Il senso in inglese è solo letterale, non figurativo, sfortunamente.
> 
> OH MY GOD......... (Edit btw)
> 
> Ho controllato i dizionari e dicono che può essere usata per un "verbal dispute/arguement"..............
> Questa non l'ho mai sentito a.... non ci posso credere, NESSUNO la dice come questo in questo senso-con questo significato... assolutamente nessuno.
> Sono in shock.
> 
> Non sono una persona maleducato a, e conosco benissimo la mia lingua, allora, il consiglio veramente non cambia.... non usarla mai come questo così perché nessuno ti capirebbe.


 
Hey Alex, I hope you don't mind! "Come questo" in this sense in Italian sounds very bad, like the literal translation of "like this", isn't it? (Please, feel free to tell me off  any time I make a mistake in English, won't you?)

Einstein, your last P.S. is so funny!


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## Alxmrphi

Haha "to tell off" is to shout at (when you have done something cattivo), why would I do that to you
Thank you for the note about "Come questo" - these are *exactly* the tips I am trying to learn right now.


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## Salbina

Alex_Murphy said:


> Haha "to tell off" is to shout at (when you have done something cattivo), why would I do that to you
> Thank you for the note about "Come questo" - these are *exactly* the tips I am trying to learn right now.




 You're more than welcome and...yes, feel free to (figuratively, of course...) "shout at me" if I write something wrong: I'd like to learn how to speak proper English, not only to let people understand me!


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## pask46

My son plays with those Dungeons and Dragons model figures... according to that game lexicon, a "skirmisher" is a member of a small patrol/commando which engages small fights with enemy similar units.
So, to me, a skirmish is just a scaramuccia.
What about "scrimmage", by the way?
Isn't that a small fight too?


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## Alxmrphi

I've never heard of a scrimmage before.


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## pask46

Well...I think AE natives could be more familiar with this.
I learned it (and use it) in (american) football, where "scrimmage" means two different things: the (immaginary) line that separates two teams befor the play starts (line of scrimmage) 
and a practice game, in which many rules and real game situations are simplified.
Basically, when (in football) they refer to the contact part of the game, they talk about "scrimmage".

And so... what about "gridiron", which is BE for scrimmage?
It comes from the original meaning of grid, I think... in AE is used to mean "football field", and I red it in British magazines with the meaning of "football (american)" in general... they talk about British Gridiron...


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## Zenof

pask46 said:


> What about "scrimmage", by the way?
> Isn't that a small fight too?


 
_Scrimmage_ = _zuffa, (sport) mischia_

_zuffa_ = combattimento non lungo ma accanito, (fig.) violenta polemica

ex: quei due non si sopportano, ogni volta che si vedono si azzuffano come due galletti

_mischia _= scontro violento e disordinato fra più persone, confuso insieme di persone o di animali (fig.) contrasto, lotta

ex: Sai come è fatto Giovanni, appena è iniziata la discussione si è gettato nella mischia.

Journalist talking about soccer: all'interno dell'area piccola si è creata una mischia furibonda da cui poi è scaturito il gol


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## GavinW

Alex_Murphy said:


> Exactly, I am totally 100% in agreement with you Einstein, but I guess I'll also take Gavin's word for it as well.
> 
> Anyone else got anything to bring to the (*round*) table? hehehe


 
While it's nice to apparently inspire such trust, I do feel a bit awkward... 

One thing I could add, also in the context of "slain" (mentioned above), is that both terms (skirmish, slain) tend to be used in journalistic jargon. They're short, snappy words which have a special use within news reporting (think headlines etc). The rationale may be identical in both cases (and several others one could probably unearth): terms deriving from different registers/fields/historical periods etc and adopted by newshounds (well, not only by them, perhaps, but especially by them, being generally an unscrupulous bunch...).

EDIT: Alex, you say: "Even though you've been living in Italy? I just can't get my head around it." Perhaps the fact I follow news reporting (also in English) would account for this (ie the fact I've heard and seen it, even though I may not have used it all that much myself).


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## della_malo

pask46 said:


> Well...I think AE natives could be more familiar with this.
> I learned it (and use it) in (american) football, where "scrimmage" means two different things: the (immaginary) line that separates two teams befor the play starts (line of scrimmage)
> and a practice game, in which many rules and real game situations are simplified.


 
Yes yes, a scrimmage is a practice game.  I haven't heard of it used as your second definition...although I AM a female.. 

Getting back to the matter at hand- here's another, a _brawl- _(AE) slang for a fight that began verbally and most likely ended with punches being thrown!


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## TimLA

pask46 said:


> Well...I think AE natives could be more familiar with this.
> I learned it (and use it) in (american) football, where "scrimmage" means two different things: the (immaginary) line that separates two teams befor the play starts (line of scrimmage)



I agree.
This AE speaker has heard "scrimmage" since high school (many moons ago) and it is a "practice" game.
It can be used as a noun or a verb.


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## pask46

della_malo said:


> Yes yes, a scrimmage is a practice game. I haven't heard of it used as your second definition...although I AM a female..
> 
> Getting back to the matter at hand- here's another, a _brawl- _(AE) slang for a fight that began verbally and most likely ended with punches being thrown!


 
A brawl is what we call "rissa", which means a fight involving several people. 
In our Penalty Code "rissa" is when more than two individuals are involved, otherwise it's just a "colluttazione".
I can also throw in:
*"melee",* which I first heard referred to NBA infamous fight between Indiana Pacers and Detroit Pistons (back in 2006, I guess).
In the same occasion, I heard "fracas", but really don't know the exact meaning. I'd say it's like "punches", but's strictly a guess.


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## Einstein

"Brawl" is also BE.


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