# עוד



## HERETIC-

*H*i every body it's my first time to post here 
*I*'ve two questions ;

1- *C*an this word עוד refer to past tense ? *O*r just for future ? *C*an any one explain *please* ?

........
*H*ere in this example how can *I *say that it's talking about future not the past tense*?*
ולא קם ישוע עוד 
*S*ome people say that here the word קם is a subject not a past and it should be translated to :
yashua will never raise again 
others say that it's talking about past tense and should be translated to :
yashua didn't raise till now 

*W*hat is the right translation ? *A*nd *are* there any refrences ( dictionaris or books ) of the right translation that *I* can use to depate ?

*R*egards


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## Nunty

HERETIC- said:


> hi every body it's my first time to post here
> i've two questions ;
> 
> 1- can this word עוד  refer to past tense ? or just for future ? can any one explain plz ?
> 
> ........
> here in this example  how can i say that it's talking about future not the past tense
> ולא קם ישוע עוד
> some people say that here the word קם is a subject not a past and it should be translated to :
> yashua will never raise again
> others say that it's talking about past tense and should be translated to :
> yashua didn't raise till now
> 
> what is the right translation ? and r there any refrences ( dictionaris or books ) of the right translation that i can use to depate ?
> 
> regards


Welcome to the forums, Heretic 

לא...עוד can mean "still" or "not yet" or "no more". I would translate your example ולא קם ישוע עוד as "And Yeshua rose no more" (or "did not rise again") if it is supposed to be modern Hebrew or "Yeshua will not rise again" if it's supposed to be in biblical language.

(The difference is that in biblical Hebrew we have the "vav of conversion" which changes the tense of the verb. One of our colleagues who is much better at grammar than I can explain.)


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## HERETIC-

Thanks Nun-Translator  

Now I understand that "vav of conversion" is the key of changing the meaning from past tense to future tense and this is clear in the biblical 'evrit 
This "vav of conversion" does it change the verb in the  past tense into a subject ? Or what ? 
And does the word  עוד has an effect on the translation ?
 
I've been searching the bible for an example to understand your explanation  and I found this one  ( Deuteronomy 34:10 )
 ולא קם נביא עוד בישראל כמשה אשר ידעו יהוה פנים אל פנים 
Here can I translate it  into "No prophet will araise again in Israel like Moses whom YAH knew  face to face" ?




> One of our colleagues who is much better at grammar than I can explain.)


Thanks , And I'm waiting for someone to explain more .

Regards


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## Tararam

I believe, and it's only my opinion, that "od" isn't referring to the future.
Furthermore, I don't recall hearing it in a future sentence, in such a sentence the words "Shuv" (again) or "Yoter" (more, anymore) are often used.
I would translate the biblical sentences above with the perfect tense.
"No prophet has risen in Israel like Moses..."
"Yehuda hasn't risen since"

I believe the sentences are written in the past tense on purpose.
Conjugating the verbs in the past gives the reader the impression that "no prophet" or "yehuda" has risen since (including the period in which the reader is reading the sentence) thus making the sentence eternal.
A simpler explanation is that the biblical writer is stating that these events have lasted up to his time at least (a more literal meaning).

Hope it's clear...


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## jdotjdot89

Just to be clear, the "vav of conversion" or "ו"ו ההיפוך" only is applicable when it's a part of the verb in question.  Thus, ויאמר means "he said," and "ואמרת" means "you will say," but קם does not mean "will rise" here.  I think that Tamar's version with the perfect is best.


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## jdotjdot89

So "ולא קם ישוע עוד" is really "and Jesus did not rise again."


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## jdotjdot89

Or "Jesus does not rise again," given that without the nikkud here, the verb's tense is ambiguous.  How did you get a sentence like that in Hebrew?  Are you looking at a Hebrew translation of the gospels?


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## Ali Smith

What about in the following?

לא אוסיף עוד לעשות חסד עמכם

How would you translate it here?

My translation of this sentence _without_ עוד would be "I will not continue to do kindness with you.". I don't know what עוד would add.


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## JAN SHAR

Here's something similar in the bible:

הכוני בל חליתי הלמוני בל ידעתי מתי אקיץ אוסיף אבקשנו עוד


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## Sharjeel72

עוד seems to be redundant in both places.


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## Ali Smith

Yeah, that makes sense. It's redundant here too:

וַיָּבֹא֙ הַמֶּ֣לֶךְ דָּוִ֔ד וַיֵּ֖שֶׁב לִפְנֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר מִ֣י אָנֹכִ֞י אֲדֹנָ֤י יֱהֹוִה֙ וּמִ֣י בֵיתִ֔י כִּ֥י הֲבִאֹתַ֖נִי עַד־הֲלֹֽם׃
וַתִּקְטַן֩ ע֨וֹד זֹ֤את בְּעֵינֶ֙יךָ֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֔ה וַתְּדַבֵּ֛ר גַּ֥ם אֶל־בֵּֽית־עַבְדְּךָ֖ לְמֵרָח֑וֹק וְזֹ֛את תּוֹרַ֥ת הָאָדָ֖ם אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִֽה׃
(שמואל ב ז יח-יט)

And King David entered and sat in front of Yahweh and he said, "Who am I, O my lord Yahweh, and who is my house that you have brought to here? And this was insignificant in your eyes, O my lord Y-----, for you spoke about the house of your servant in the distant future too. And this is the law of man, O my lord Y-----."

It's best to leave it out of the translation here.


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## JAN SHAR

I think a better translation of וַתִּקְטַן֩ ע֨וֹד זֹ֤את בְּעֵינֶ֙יךָ֙ would be

This was moreover an unimportant matter in your estimation

with "moreover" as the translation of ע֨וֹד.


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## zaw

So וַתִּקְטַן֩ ע֨וֹד expresses a state rather than an event here?


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## Ali Smith

zaw said:


> So וַתִּקְטַן֩ ע֨וֹד expresses a state rather than an event here?


Yes. Observe:

וַיָּבֹא֙ הַמֶּ֣לֶךְ דָּוִ֔ד וַיֵּ֖שֶׁב לִפְנֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר מִ֣י אָנֹכִ֞י אֲדֹנָ֤י יֱהֹוִה֙ וּמִ֣י בֵיתִ֔י כִּ֥י הֲבִאֹתַ֖נִי עַד־הֲלֹֽם׃
וַתִּקְטַן֩ ע֨וֹד זֹ֤את בְּעֵינֶ֙יךָ֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֔ה וַתְּדַבֵּ֛ר גַּ֥ם אֶל־בֵּֽית־עַבְדְּךָ֖ לְמֵרָח֑וֹק וְזֹ֛את תּוֹרַ֥ת הָאָדָ֖ם אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִֽה׃
(שמואל ב ז יח-יט)

And King David entered and sat in front of Yahweh and he said, "Who am I, O my lord Y-----, and who is my house that you have brought to here? And this was moreover insignificant in your eyes again, O my lord Y-----, for you spoke about the house of your servant in the distant future too. And this is the law of man, O my lord Y-----."

ע֨וֹד = again


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## Abaye

Ali Smith said:


> ע֨וֹד = again


עוד of 2 Samuel 7:19 is usually translated as "also".


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## Ali Smith

So, would the following be a better translation?

וַיָּבֹא֙ הַמֶּ֣לֶךְ דָּוִ֔ד וַיֵּ֖שֶׁב לִפְנֵ֣י יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר מִ֣י אָנֹכִ֞י אֲדֹנָ֤י יֱהֹוִה֙ וּמִ֣י בֵיתִ֔י כִּ֥י הֲבִאֹתַ֖נִי עַד־הֲלֹֽם׃
וַתִּקְטַן֩ ע֨וֹד זֹ֤את בְּעֵינֶ֙יךָ֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֔ה וַתְּדַבֵּ֛ר גַּ֥ם אֶל־בֵּֽית־עַבְדְּךָ֖ לְמֵרָח֑וֹק וְזֹ֛את תּוֹרַ֥ת הָאָדָ֖ם אֲדֹנָ֥י יֱהֹוִֽה׃
(שמואל ב ז יח-יט)

And King David entered and sat in front of Yahweh and he said, "Who am I, O my lord Y-----, and who is my house that you have brought to here? And this, too, was insignificant in your eyes, O my lord Y-----, for you spoke about the house of your servant in the distant future too. And this is the law of man, O my lord Y-----."


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## zaw

Yes, that is a pretty accurate translation.
"moreover" or "again" should not be the translation of עוד, at least not here.


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