# Más alto (pronunciation of 's')



## akhooha

I recall a Nicaraguan friend of mine pronouncing the phrase "mas alto" as if it were "mahalto". Are there any other instances of this shift and is it found in other dialects as well?


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## The Newt

It sounds like a case of consonant weakening, which is common with final consonants around the Caribbean and may extend to Nicaragua. See section 2.1 here:

Caribbean Spanish


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## akhooha

Thanks Newt for the quick reply and for the very informative link.


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## Wandering JJ

It is also common in the Canaries, where a syllable final 's' is pronounced as a slight aspiration. I used to think people were ordering_ tabaco_ to spice up their zumo de tomate: it was, of course,_ tabasco._


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## Circunflejo

akhooha said:


> is it found in other dialects as well?



It can also be found in Andalucía.


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## Wandering JJ

… and several South American countries.


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## jmx

Circunflejo said:


> It can also be found in some areas of Andalucía.


In *some* areas? Nowadays it can be found all over Spain!


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## Circunflejo

jmx said:


> In *some* areas?



Yes, you are right. It's widespread in Andalucía. I'll edit my previous post now.



jmx said:


> Nowadays it can be found all over Spain!



My hearing habilities aren't great so maybe I didn't notice it but I'd say I don't hear it here in Castile. Anyway, definitely I'm not part of the people that speaks that way.


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## Penyafort

No, it's not found all over Spain in intervocalic contexts, only in southern regions and the Canary Islands. Unless by "all over Spain" we mean Southerners or Hispanic Americans living in the North.

There is one s > h, though, that is certainly spreading among some Central/Northerners, from what I can perceive. It's the s before k (_a*sc*o_, _má*s qu*e_, _lo*s c*oches_...) in fast careless speech.


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## duvija

Penyafort said:


> No, it's not found all over Spain in intervocalic contexts, only in southern regions and the Canary Islands. Unless by "all over Spain" we mean Southerners or Hispanic Americans living in the North.
> 
> There is one s > h, though, that is certainly spreading among some Central/Northerners, from what I can perceive. It's the s before k (_a*sc*o_, _má*s qu*e_, _lo*s c*oches_...) in fast careless speech.



Not really an . Before k/g it's an [x]. Or in Spanish, a 'j' (ajko, mojka), (ej gato)
The [x] is the symbol in the IPA.


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## Amapolas

Penyafort said:


> It's the s before k (_a*sc*o_, _má*s qu*e_, _lo*s c*oches_...) in fast careless speech.


¡Esto es oro, muchas gracias! Estaba segura de haberlo oído por la tele, y creía que a lo mejor eran actores nacidos por acá y emigrados. Pero como me parece que estoy perdiendo la agudeza auditiva, dudaba.


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## Penyafort

duvija said:


> Not really an . Before k/g it's an [x]. Or in Spanish, a 'j' (ajko, mojka), (ej gato)
> The [x] is the symbol in the IPA.



Hmm, I don't agree. It depends on the speaker and may vary from a soft aspiration to a [x] sound indeed. But I personally associate the [x] one with a dialectal trait of speakers from some areas, while the relaxation is a more widespread phenomenon.



Amapolas said:


> ¡Esto es oro, muchas gracias! Estaba segura de haberlo oído por la tele, y creía que a lo mejor eran actores nacidos por acá y emigrados. Pero como me parece que estoy perdiendo la agudeza auditiva, dudaba.


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## Doraemon-

It depends on the dialect.
In some dialects the final -s is not pronounced or softened to -h, even before a vowel. This happens in some caribbean countries, Canary Islands and Andalusia (má alto, o máh alto).
In other dialects -sk- is pronounced -jk- (sound /x/ in IPA; "¡qué ajco, un mojca! Ej que no las aguanto, oye"). This is typical from the Spanish region of La Mancha, for exemple.
These are two different phenomena.


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## jmx

Penyafort said:


> No, it's not found all over Spain in intervocalic contexts, only in southern regions and the Canary Islands. Unless by "all over Spain" we mean Southerners or Hispanic Americans living in the North.
> 
> There is one s > h, though, that is certainly spreading among some Central/Northerners, from what I can perceive. It's the s before k (_a*sc*o_, _má*s qu*e_, _lo*s c*oches_...) in fast careless speech.


The aspiration is more noticeable before velars, that's all. If you took the time to observe how most people, or at least young men, speak *to their peers*, not to outsiders, in places like Valladolid, Burgos or Zaragoza, you would notice (as I have done) that in those situations they can get to aspirate all their s's, exactly as any southerner. They have adopted the Madrid pattern: 'manchego' for everyday, and an hyperorthographic version of the same for formal registers.





Circunflejo said:


> Anyway, definitely I'm not part of the people that speaks that way.


I don't know how to understand that.


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## RebeJC

The part of Sinaloa, Mexico, where I live obliterates the "s" frequently, especially when we're talking amongst ourselves. The phrase "es lo mismo, pues" becomes "elomimopue". If you stop us and make us say it slowly, we'll say it correctly. Usually.


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## duvija

Just as an alert: the fact that the 's' (a marker of the plural, among many other jobs) may disappear in some variants, doesn't mean people stop understanding plural vs singular. In fact, the preceding vowels change enough to be the clue. (And no, a foreigner can't hear it, and the natives don't even know it. It's an automatic change, which is plenty).


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## Cos Miami

akhooha said:


> I recall a Nicaraguan friend of mine pronouncing the phrase "mas alto" as if it were "mahalto". Are there any other instances of this shift and is it found in other dialects as well?



Nicaraguans do that a lot. They also say _" lo' oho' "_ to say _"los ojos"_.

It's probably the same in the neighboring countries Honduras and Costa Rica, but i can't confirm this


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## duvija

In some countries, it's city vs. country speech. Those [s/h/x] are really difficult to teach, and always remind the students they may be surprised...


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## Wandering JJ

duvija said:


> Just as an alert: the fact that the 's' (a marker of the plural, among many other jobs) may disappear in some variants, doesn't mean people stop understanding plural vs singular. In fact, the preceding vowels change enough to be the clue. (And no, a foreigner can't hear it, and the natives don't even know it. It's an automatic change, which is plenty).


You are right about 'a foreigner can't hear it'. For several years I used to make 5-day business trips to the Canaries. When I asked the agent what we were doing the next day, if he replied 'Vamos a La Palma' I learnt to enquire whether this was_ Isla de la Palma_ or_ Las Palmas de Gran Canaria_, having once carried the wrong set of papers to the airport!


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## duvija

Wandering JJ said:


> You are right about 'a foreigner can't hear it'. For several years I used to make 5-day business trips to the Canaries. When I asked the agent what we were doing the next day, if he replied 'Vamos a La Palma' I learnt to enquire whether this was_ Isla de la Palma_ or_ Las Palmas de Gran Canaria_, having once carried the wrong set of papers to the airport!



One of my professors used to say, laughing: "Spanish is funny. Singular - la mesa. Plural - la mesa". It took me a long time to realize the difference in the preceding vowels is enough for speakers of those dialects (I cannot hear it) until, finally, he saw the light at the end of the tunnel, forced by my spectrograms shoved under his nose at the time... Even without knowing how to read a spectrogram, placed side by side, he could see in a spectrogram that 'la mesa' is different from 'la(s) mesa(s). I wish I had kept those spectrograms. I can't imitate others' dialects.


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## Wandering JJ

duvija said:


> One of my professors used to say, laughing: "Spanish is funny. Singular - la mesa. Plural - la mesa". It took me a long time to realize the difference in the preceding vowels is enough for speakers of those dialects (I cannot hear it) until, finally, he saw the light at the end of the tunnel, forced by my spectrograms shoved under his nose at the time... Even without knowing how to read a spectrogram, placed side by side, he could see in a spectrogram that 'la mesa' is different from 'la(s) mesa(s). I wish I had kept those spectrograms. I can't imitate others' dialects.


Me too!


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## Amapolas

duvija said:


> One of my professors used to say, laughing: "Spanish is funny. Singular - la mesa. Plural - la mesa". It took me a long time to realize the difference in the preceding vowels is enough for speakers of those dialects (I cannot hear it) until, finally, he saw the light at the end of the tunnel, forced by my spectrograms shoved under his nose at the time... Even without knowing how to read a spectrogram, placed side by side, he could see in a spectrogram that 'la mesa' is different from 'la(s) mesa(s). I wish I had kept those spectrograms. I can't imitate others' dialects.


And we natives aren't aware of the change of the wovels. We just understand.


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## Circunflejo

duvija said:


> It took me a long time to realize the difference in the preceding vowels is enough for speakers of those dialects



...and speakers of other dialects that are familiar with those dialects.


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## eduarodi

Hi. I'm from Santa Fe, Argentina. I pronounce "más alto" with a /s/ sound, because the following word (alto) begins with a vowel, but if the word immediately following the "s" begins with a consonant, I'd pronounce the "s" as /h/, for example in "más bajo".


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## Amapolas

eduarodi said:


> Hi. I'm from Santa Fe, Argentina. I pronounce "más alto" with a /s/ sound, because the following word (alto) begins with a vowel, but if the word immediately following the "s" begins with a consonant, I'd pronounce the "s" as /h/, for example in "más bajo".


Y en el sur de la provincia, de Rosario para abajo al menos, se aspira la h también antes de vocal, igual que en Entre Ríos: má-h-alto.


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## eduarodi

Amapolas said:


> Y en el sur de la provincia, de Rosario para abajo al menos, se aspira la h también antes de vocal, igual que en Entre Ríos: má-h-alto.



Posiblemente sea una cuestión no solamente geográfica, sino también etaria, por ejemplo. Yo digo "más alto" con /s/, pero he oído a gente más joven decir "máh alto". Y en Paraná, Entre Ríos, también noto el mismo fenómeno.

Además influye la velocidad a la que se habla, si se está leyendo o hablando sin leer, y hasta factores más puntuales de cada caso. Por ejemplo, cuando se juntan una palabra que termina en ese con otra que empieza con ese. Yo diría "las sábanas" separando las eses de las dos palabras y pronunciando "las" con /s/, para marcar el plural, sobre todo porque (como santafesino) tiendo a no pronunciar la ese final de "sábanas" o a pronunciarla como una aspiración.


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## MiguelitOOO

En mi opinión, la omisión del sonido de la "S" se acerca más al sonido de la "J" en las "dicciones aflautadas" como lo son algunas centroamericanas (aunque no exclusivas de centroamérica); a diferencia de los casos de ciertas regiones de España, en donde, creo —puedo estar equivocado— la dicción es más bien "fusionante" (se fusionan las palabras) y el sonido no se convierte precisamente en un sonido de "J", sino que "tiene un _dejo_ a J".


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## eduarodi

En España, por lo que he notado, a veces la ese final se cambia por el sonido de la "r" de "caro". Por ejemplo, he oído pronunciar "los días" como "lor días". Y no fue un caso o una persona puntual. Pero no sé en qué casos se hace eso, ni en qué regiones de España lo hacen, y mi conocimiento del acento español (o de los acentos españoles) se limita a lo que oigo en la música, la televisión y el cine.


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## duvija

La /s/ es una de nuestras consonantes más divertidas. Para extranjeros, es imposible darse cuenta que pasa de nada, a aspirada, a velar... y a aguantarse los cambios.
Para mí también la diferencia es "si sigue una vocal, es una . Si sigue una consonante, depende del punto de articulación de esa consonante. Si es final de palabra no es igual que 'final de frase'," y así va la vida. Y ni me meto con la del centro de España.


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