# I suggest you <be> good. [subjunctive]



## annadifrancia

Hello, 

I am aware about a particular use of the verb "be" in certain cases, like (please correct me if I'm wrong): "I suggest you be there tomorrow".
As a non-native speaker, I tend to never use this form. I would certainly say "I suggest that you are there tomorrow" or "that you come tomorrow". 

Can someone explain in a formal way when that other form is correct (or "more" correct?) and how often native speakers use it (or don't use it) too? 

This is my sentence:  
"Previous scientific literature does not report works where audio magnetic tapes have been observed by means of electronic microscopy."

I thought that this might be a case where I could say: "...where audio magnetic tapes be observed by means of electronic microscopy."

Ok? Not ok? Fail big time? 
This issue has been on my mind for so long, I'd really appreciate some clarity at last! Thanks to all who will help!
--a


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## PaulQ

Yes, I am afraid you failed, please leave the class.

The "be" in "I suggest you be there tomorrow," is the subjunctive form of the verb to be. 

The subjunctive is used when talking about events that are not certain to happen but that someone wants to happen, anticipates will happen, commands to happen, or imagines happening.

It is used after such verbs as suggest, demand, order, think, etc.


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## MilkyBarKid

Let's say, somewhere _between _'not OK' and 'fail big time'. 

This is but one example of the subjunctive…and when not to use it. You are probably using the subjunctive at times and don't realise it, because with some pronouns, the verb doesn't change.
"I suggest you *be* there tomorrow".
"I suggest you *try* harder tomorrow".
_Both_ are subjunctive uses of the verb! You will see this more clearly if I change the second sentence to:
"I suggest *he* *try* harder tomorrow".

Because there is a lot to digest here, I suggest that you start with:
http://www.englishpage.com/minitutorials/subjunctive.html


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## annadifrancia

Thank you! I'm reading the link suggested by MilkyBarKid, where I'm learning about the correct usage of the subjunctive. I only have one more question. 
Granted that "I suggest he try harder tomorrow" is the correct form, how *incorrect* is "I suggest that he tries harder tomorrow", since that's what I've been using and that I hear it from other people all the time?
--a


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## boozer

In theory, it should be 'I suggest that he try harder tomorrow' - subjunctive mood. In reality, this sounds too posh and formal for any practical purposes. You are far more likely to hear a pseudo-subjunctive 'should' - 'suggest that he should try harder, or a verb in the indicative - 'suggest that he tries'. The indicative is not incorrect.


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## annadifrancia

I like the concept of "not incorrect"  
thank you again! "I suggest I use the subjunctive from now on" 
--a


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## boozer

I suggest you refrain from using it. In fact, I suggest you try your best to avoid it.


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## PaulQ

Annadifrancia,

I admit that I support, unconditionally, the use of the subjunctive.

There has been a movement by teachers and others against the subjunctive. There is no real reason for the opposition (other than, I suspect, that there is less to teach.) I, and many others, disagree that the subjunctive is too formal. Moreover, in the written language you will come across the subjunctive and, in formal/business letters, the subjunctive is indicative of a person who cares for the language, and rightly or wrongly, conveys a good impression, just as poor grammar will convey a bad impression. Correct use is never wrong.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

PaulQ said:


> ...in the written language you will come across the subjunctive and, in formal/business letters, the subjunctive is indicative of a person who cares for the language, and rightly or wrongly, conveys a good impression, just as poor grammar will convey a bad impression. Correct use is never wrong.



Right, PaulQ. And anna is right to ask these questions so she can learn what's correct! That said, I agree with your remarks about contexts. Some folks might think it is stilted or pedantic to use the subjunctive, but I couldn't see not mentioning this in a class, especially intermediate and above. It's part grammar, part usage. There may be situations, however, where one wouldn't want to come across as an egghead; listen to the register of your interlocuters and adjust your own speech (including vocabulary) accordingly. Most people will allow for slips by someone who is obviously a beginning learner, though.


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## annadifrancia

Interesting observations. Thank you. I would say I am someone who cares for the language, but on the other hand I feel relaxed about being labeled as someone who doesn't: I work in an international environment where few people are native speakers, most don't have an advanced level of English, yet somehow everybody communicates and nobody roll their eyes when they hear an approximate use of expressions and so forth. Just like not all Italians use the "congiuntivo" tense correctly (in Italian), maybe not all native speakers will think I am a savage if I miss some subjunctive  nevertheless I will try to pay attention to when it should be used and make a conscious decision. While I'm at it... is "it is recommended that luggage not be left unattended" correct? It doesn't sound very right to me :/ "not be" or "be not"? 
My real example: "it is recommended that tapes be rewound several times before replay."
Thank you all, great great answers.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Hi,anna, Strictly speaking, correct (but 'be not left' , for the negative infinitive, isn't), but I'd go with: "It is recommended that luggage not be left unattended" => "Do not leave luggage unattended.", and "It is recommended that tapes  be rewound several times before replay." => "Tapes should be rewound several times before replay."


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## annadifrancia

hmmmm this language is a mistery 

I feel that "it is recommended" and "it should" are not equivalent. But I understand most native speakers will use "should". Hmmmmmmmmm

the rumination goes on


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## bennymix

It's pretty (between moderately and strongly) incorrect.   It sounds foreign.   "should try" as others have stated is the acceptable alternative to 'try'.



annadifrancia said:


> Thank you! I'm reading the link suggested by MilkyBarKid, where I'm learning about the correct usage of the subjunctive. I only have one more question.
> Granted that "I suggest he try harder tomorrow" is the correct form, how *incorrect* is "I suggest that he tries harder tomorrow", since that's what I've been using and that I hear it from other people all the time?
> --a


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## variegatedfoliage

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> Right, PaulQ. And anna is right to ask these questions so she can learn what's correct! That said, I agree with your remarks about contexts. Some folks might think it is stilted or pedantic to use the subjunctive, but I couldn't see not mentioning this in a class, especially intermediate and above. It's part grammar, part usage. There may be situations, however, where one wouldn't want to come across as an egghead; listen to the register of your interlocuters and adjust your own speech (including vocabulary) accordingly. Most people will allow for slips by someone who is obviously a beginning learner, though.



I'd say you can never go wrong using the subjunctive. Its use is not so blatant that it sounds overly formal, and the truth is that people who don't know how to use it are not likely to even notice when it's used.


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## MilkyBarKid

"...since that's what I've been using and that I hear it from other people all the time?"

I hear 'gunna' and 'wanna' the majority of the time.
I hear sentences akin to, "She hated me looking at other girls" most of the time.
I hear such phrases as, "…with him and I" a lot of the time.
I could go on.

You say: "...yet somehow everybody communicates and nobody roll their eyes when they hear an approximate use of expressions and so forth."

I would respond:
To paraphrase Marianne Celce-Murcia: "You don't need good grammar to be understood. You DO need good grammar to be respected."
A sentiment, rightly or wrongly, I believe in, and serves me well when I respect someone who stands head and shoulders above others, and having the respect of people *I* regard as peers matters to me.

Call me quaint, call me funny that way.


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## bennymix

> Granted that "I suggest he try harder tomorrow" is the correct form, how *incorrect* is "I suggest that he tries harder tomorrow", since that's what I've been using and that I hear it from other people all the time?
> --a



One reason it sounds bad is the present tense.    It occcurs to me that a learner *could* get by with a future tense,  "I suggest that he will try harder tomorrow."    It's not perfect, but at least doesn't clash.


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## Susan Y

boozer said:


> or a verb in the indicative - 'suggest that he tries'. The indicative is not incorrect.



In fact it is what most BE speakers would say, and is therefore "correct" - the subjunctive is very rarely used in British (including Australasian ) English these days. To me the sentence "I suggest he try harder" sounds very old-fashioned and/or American.


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## bennymix

I do see a handful of such cases on the 'net, Susan, but, damn, it sounds barbarous!   You folks invented the nuance, but now decline into yobbism?

Liberal England: March 2008
liberalengland.blogspot.com/2008_03_16_archive.html
Apr 15, 2008 - The UK Privy Council has approved proposed changes to the governing body of a ... Brian Paddick's London Mayoral campaign website .... May I suggest that he tries not to sack any more of his most effective front-bench ...

Homeschool Routine Archives - Navigating By Joy
www.navigatingbyjoy.com/category/homeschool-routine/
Feb 14, 2014 - I suggest that he tries the division pages C(10) enjoyed earlier. ..... here in the UK that we don't have to keep homeschooling records or prove ...

NORTHERN IRELAND it - Irish Left Archive
www.clririshleftarchive.org/workspace/documents/1186-ui-1969.pdf
British police observed the commemoration from patrol cars, but .... older I suggest that he tries to find out all about the ..... in London. Healy who had a as a front ...




Susan Y said:


> In fact it is what most BE speakers would say, and is therefore "correct" - the subjunctive is very rarely used in British (including Australasian ) English these days. To me the sentence "I suggest he try harder" sounds very old-fashioned and/or American.


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## Loob

Benny, you surely can't be surprised by Susan's comment?  It's only a couple of months since we discussed this.


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## Susan Y

bennymix said:


> You folks invented the nuance, but now decline into yobbism?



Then I guess we Brits are yobs. 

But seriously, in BE there is nothing wrong with the examples you quote, Benny, and to use the subjunctive (try) in those cases would sound peculiar. Personally I never use the subjunctive except in set expressions such as "as it were" or "God save the Queen".

Annadifrancia, I can only sum up by saying it is your choice whether you use the subjunctive or not. Good luck!


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## annadifrancia

Thank you Susan. I will drop a subjunctive every now and then and observe people's reactions


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## Wordnip

PaulQ said:


> Annadifrancia,
> 
> I admit that I support, unconditionally, the use of the subjunctive.
> 
> There has been a movement by teachers and others against the subjunctive. There is no real reason for the opposition (other than, I suspect, that there is less to teach.) I, and many others, disagree that the subjunctive is too formal. Moreover, in the written language you will come across the subjunctive and, in formal/business letters, the subjunctive is indicative of a person who cares for the language, and rightly or wrongly, conveys a good impression, just as poor grammar will convey a bad impression. Correct use is never wrong.



Well said! Often those that decry the use of the subjunctive (and some other points of grammar) and say that it is too formal etc., are making a value judgement, based on concealed prejudices concerning class and other extraneous matters, rather than giving a more detached and objective opinion of what is grammatically correct.


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## bennymix

Just to be clear for Anna:  Though I use the subjunctive, a fine British invention, my 'ear' does not object to modern 'work-arounds' used in Britain and elsewhere;

"I suggest that he try harder tomorrow" {subjunctive}, ==>"I suggest that he should try harder tomorrow."  "I think it would be a good thing for him to try harder tomorrow"  "My suggestion is for him to try harder tomorrow"   and so on.

My difficulty is with the alternative, "I suggest that he tries harder tomorrow."




Susan Y said:


> Then I guess we Brits are yobs.
> 
> But seriously, in BE there is nothing wrong with the examples you quote, Benny, and to use the subjunctive (try) in those cases would sound peculiar. Personally I never use the subjunctive except in set expressions such as "as it were" or "God save the Queen".
> 
> Annadifrancia, I can only sum up by saying it is your choice whether you use the subjunctive or not. Good luck!


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## Thomas Tompion

I think that the thread linked by Loob in post #19 gives a more balanced and interesting assessment of the current status of the subjunctive in the two languages (BE and AE).

I hope you've looked at it, Annadifrancia.  It might help you know when best - talking to whom? - to 'drop a subjunctive' into your conversation, and, most important, when to avoid doing so.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Susan Y said:


> In fact it is what most BE speakers would say, and is therefore "correct..."



Being in common usage does not make something "correct"; it makes it "widely acceptable", but it is still incorrect. (I feel another thread coming on...)


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## bennymix

Anna, please note that the interesting thread #19 involved a past tense and past situation.   Hence many issues of this present thread were not directly covered.


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## Loob

PaulQ said:


> ... There has been a movement by teachers and others against the subjunctive. ...


Paul, I was surprised by this. My impression was the opposite - that use of the subjunctive was increasing in BrE, under the influence of American English.

Can you give any examples?


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## PaulQ

No, I can't. All I can tell you is that (a) teachers to whom I have spoken seem to be of the "What's the point?" mentality. (b) Previous discussions here seem to be along the lines of "Let the subjunctive die. Does it matter? It only really exists in "to be."[1] Such was the case, that my signature at one time expressed my support as a 'subjunctivist'.

Is your point that the subjunctive is becoming commoner in *spoken *English?

[1] And, no, I'm not going to name names, but they know who they are.


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## Thomas Tompion

Loob said:


> Paul, I was suprised by this. My impression was the  opposite - that use of the subjunctive was increasing in BrE, under the  influence of American English.
> 
> Can you give any examples?


Also, I don't think that 'teachers and others' can play Canute in such matters.

Academic opinion is pretty clear that the subjunctive is coming to be employed more in BE.


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## Thomas Tompion

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> Being in common usage does not make something "correct"; it makes it "widely acceptable", but it is still incorrect. (I feel another thread coming on...)


When there is a marked difference, with which we are all familiar, between AE and BE, as here, I can see little point in speakers of one of the languages trying to impose their usage as correct on speakers of the other.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Hi, Thomas T., With the greatest respect, are you saying that US English and GB English (and Australian, Irish and other English) are different languages? Aren't they different regional variations of the same language, like German/Austrian/Swiss German, or French/Quebecois/Martiniquais/Swiss/Belgian French, etc. - or for that matter, regional varieties within the UK and the US?


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## Thomas Tompion

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> Hi, Thomas T., With the greatest respect, are you saying that US English and GB English (and Australian, Irish and other English) are different languages? Aren't they different regional variations of the same language, like German/Austrian/Swiss German, or French/Quebecois/Martiniquais/Swiss/Belgian French, etc. - or for that matter, regional varieties within the UK and the US?


I'm saying that you won't find me telling you what is correct in your version of English.


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## bennymix

Thomas Tompion said:


> I'm saying that you won't find me telling you what is correct in your version of English.


 
With all due respect Thomas, this seems to be a rather distorted view of a complex process.   Given the subjunctive forms existed
in Britain for hundreds of years, it would be odd to speak of their American preservation (in some cases) as 'imposition.' Likewise, the word hardly describes Americans' continued enthusiasm for certain of these forms, in particular that of Anna’s post #1,  

"I suggest you be there tomorrow" 

or Anna’s post #4, "I suggest that he try harder tomorrow."

And some of these forms are apparently receiving renewed, if rather occasional usage in Britain.

House of Commons Hansard Debates for 09 Oct 2008 (pt ...
www.publications.parliament.uk › ... › Hansard › Commons Debates

Oct 9, 2008 -





> However, I suggest that he try to catch the Speaker's eye in the debate on Monday. ... They would like to invest it in UK banks—they do not want to hold it ... the London borough of Havering, is one of the councils that has had ...




Anita Auer, in _The Treatment of the Subjunctive in Eighteenth-century Grammars of English_*, gives examples of British grammarians' early efforts to explain and codify the subjunctive, to determine the amount of reliance on Latin, to assess whether English has _moods_.  In particular she looks at several 18th century grammars, some of which  deal in detail with the issues.  For example, James White (1761), _The English Verb_.

She notes,  "White, like other eighteenth-century grammarians, explains the derivation of the term subjunctive from the fact that it is subjoined to certain words, these being before, _ere, except, however, if, lest, so, tho’, till or until, whatsoever or whatever, whether, whosoever or whoever,_ &c."   [...]

She summarizes a portion of White's book as follows: 



> In a lengthy section, in which White illustrates subjunctive examples in subordinate clauses, he presents and illustrates a number of non-factual meanings of the subjunctive. He discusses the conditional, words of wishing that are followed by the subjunctive, and even comments on what we now call the mandative subjunctive by saying “Here the Subjunctive Mood, in its Present Tense, follows a Verb of Command in the Indicative, with the interposition of that, the Conjunction which commonly preceeds what is affirm’d or order’d”. He provides the example “He commands that his mighty standard be uprear’d”.



She considers several other grammars, including  Lowth, _ A Short Introduction to English Grammar_ (1762).
====

In sum, the sentence, "I suggest that he try harder tomorrow" follows common British rules laid down in the 18th century by British grammarians.

That practice happens to have greatly declined through the 19th century and after, in Britain.  Some say there are signs that the tide has turned slightly.   This back and forth of linguistic forms is well documented;  older forms may be preserved in former colonies.

In the present case, it would hardly seem like an American is "imposing" on British person.  Nor does it seem exactly to fit these circumstances if a British person were to say, "you won't find me telling you what is correct in your version of English."

Friendly discussion of common heritage and Americans’ immense debt to Great Britain are factual matters worthy of measured discussion;  one or the other side's efforts to convince or argue *from the common heritage material* is best offered and taken in full good will.  It’s both fun and productive. 

----
*
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...8esv01UemR7P2TyXMsdxlCg&bvm=bv.81449611,d.aWw


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## Thomas Tompion

Where's the distortion, Benny?  I've not done more than say that BE members should hesitate to tell AE members what is correct in AE, and vice versa.  If you accused me of committing a platitude, I'd be quick to agree.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Hi, Thomas T, As you said in earlier posts (29 & 32), "Speak and let speak.", as it were  !


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## boozer

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> Being in common usage does not make something "correct"; it makes it "widely acceptable", but it is still incorrect. (I feel another thread coming on...)


Well, it does. Go to the British National Corpus and enter the phrase 'I suggest that'. Then check the results and count the number of relevant examples of pure subjunctive. Not more than 10-15% in my estimation. Even less - something like 2 hits in every 50. One of the reasons is, of course, that a pure hit can only be seen in the 3rd person singular - the subjunctive and indicative have the same form in all other cases. You are far more likely to see the indicative or various modal verbs being inserted by way of avoiding the subjunctive. Yes, I agree with those who say it sounds too posh. I myself do not see it as overtly American - just posh and old-fashioned. It is the perfect choice for something legal or something signed by Her Majesty.  Dropping it in casual everyday conversation may even sound wrong at times.


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## Thomas Tompion

Another point worth making, perhaps, Boozer, is that the ngrams suggest:

1.  That the choice between mandative subjunctive and indicative is strongly influenced by the main verb - 

Here are the ngrams (1a) for _suggest that he does/do_ for the two languages - reflecting some things said here (BE avoidance of the subjunctive); gainsaying other things said here (AE preference for the subjunctive).  Marked preference for the indicative in both languages.

Here are the ngrams (1b) for _insist that he does/do_  for the two languages - now BE avoidance  of the subjunctive is less marked; AE now prefers the subjunctive, but only just.

2.  That the choice between mandative subjunctive and indicative is strongly influenced by the verb in the subordinate clause. 

Here are the ngrams (2a) for _suggest that he is/be_  (the case raised in the OP) for the two languages (compare with ngrams 1a) - now avoidance  of the subjunctive is very marked in both languages.

3. That the choice between mandative subjunctive and indicative is strongly influenced by the tense of the main verb. 

Here are the ngrams (3a) for _suggest*ed* that he does/do_  for the two languages (compare with ngrams 1a) - now both languages prefer the subjunctive.

All this suggests that we should be careful in giving blanket advice to learners in such matters.


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## boozer

Good research, TT.
Just a small point regarding the 4th ngram (suggested that he do) - under normal circumstances, the sequence of tenses should kick in, so the form 'suggested that he do', as seen below, is a lot less frequent than 'suggested that he did'.
https://books.google.com/ngrams/gra...that he did;,c0;.t1;,suggested that he do;,c0 
Otherwise, you have made some good points, as usual.


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## Thomas Tompion

Yes, good point.  I should have thought of that.  Thank you.

ps.  On mature reflection, I think those final ngrams (3a) do make a valid point, because _I suggested that he go/goes_ is something one might well say when explaining that one recommended that a habit should be adopted, and one can find oneself choosing between the mandative subjunctive and the indicative, in the manner indicated.  The sequence of tenses doesn't always impose a past tense on the subordinate clause, here.  The results are strikingly different from when the main verb is in the present (ngrams 1a).


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## boozer

Well, I have to agree - with a main verb in the past tense, the subjunctive seems more fluent. I have been saying to myself various sentences and I am somehow more inclined to say 'suggested that he go' than 'suggested that he went'. However, I still prefer 'suggested that he should go'


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## Thomas Tompion

boozer said:


> Well, I have to agree - with a main verb in the past tense, the subjunctive seems more fluent. I have been saying to myself various sentences and I am somehow more inclined to say 'suggested that he go' than 'suggested that he went'. However, I still prefer 'suggested that he should go'


So do I, in most cases, of course.

I just became interested in the comparative usage of the subjunctive and the indicative for those who opted for one or the other.


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## Cagey

I am not certain that the Ngrams show that the indicative is replacing the subjunctive. 

American English does use the indicative after verbs like _suggest_ and _insist_, but with a different meaning. The indicative is used to present a fact.   The subjunctive indicates that the clause is a recommendation or demand.  

We've discussed this several times.  Anyone who wants a fuller explanation should see the thread demand/request/suggest that [bare infinitive / subjunctive / indicative].
Beginning with post                                                                                           #43, Forero explains the different meanings the indicative and the subjunctive give 'suggest' in American English. 

(I agree with your objection to the claim that grammatical 'correctness' in this operates across all varieties of English.)
*
Added*: Here is a much shorter discussion of the same issue, relating to 'insist': They insist that she go (subjunctive)


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## Pedro y La Torre

Loob said:


> Paul, I was surprised by this. My impression was the opposite - that use of the subjunctive was increasing in BrE, under the influence of American English.
> 
> Can you give any examples?



I share this impression, for what it's worth.


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## Thomas Tompion

Cagey said:


> I am not certain that the Ngrams show that the indicative is replacing the subjunctive.
> 
> American English does use the indicative after verbs like _suggest_ and _insist_, but with a different meaning. The indicative is used to present a fact.   The subjunctive indicates that the clause is a recommendation or demand.
> 
> We've discussed this several times.  Anyone who wants a fuller explanation should see the thread demand/request/suggest that [bare infinitive / subjunctive / indicative].
> Beginning with post                                                                                           #43, Forero explains the different meanings the indicative and the subjunctive give 'suggest' in American English.
> 
> (I agree with your objection to the claim that grammatical 'correctness' in this operates across all varieties of English.)
> *
> Added*: Here is a much shorter discussion of the same issue, relating to 'insist': They insist that she go (subjunctive)


Many thanks for correcting us on this, Cagey.

I've had a look at the COCA (AE corpus) and, as you say, nearly every case of _suggest that_ to mean _propose_ (recommend) - _I suggest that you be more circumspect_ - uses the subjunctive; and every case where it means_ speculate_ (hint) -_ the evidence suggests that he is trying to help you_ - uses the indicative.

There was one sentence which interested me particularly, spoken by Alex Goen (aka Alexander G Szynalski), the then CEO of TRIMSPA, talking on Fox News to Greta van Susteren:

_You know, we talked about basically how he's doing, how he's holding up,  just telling him to be strong, trying to encourage him, trying to *suggest* *that* *he* needs to keep his cool, that you know, there are a lot of rumors going around and that's what they are, they're just rumors._  Legal Wrangling Still Delaying Anna Nicole Smith Burial: Fox_Van Susteren

Why do we say _I suggest he needs to keep cool_, and_ I suggest he keep cool_? The first doesn't seem very like a speculation.  Can the verb in the subordinate clause make a difference?

In the BNC (BE corpus) the case is far less clear cut.

Of the first fifty in the sample, only 11 were relevant, of these 4 were indicative, 6 were subjunctive, and 1 used the _should_ form.

One sentence, from _The Bookseller._ London: J Whitaker & sons, 1993, showed an interest in the question, and amused me; here it is -

_I suggest that he doesn't (indicative) know what he's talking about and  that he do (subjunctive) his homework before crossing swords with  self-respecting pedants like me — some of us have a reputation to think  of!_


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## bennymix

I agree with Cagey (post #42), here.    The ngrams provided by Thomas (post #37) are rather too rough to accurately show the indicative/subjunctive choice within a given country.   There is no issue around "I suggest that he lies far too often for his own good."  
"I suggest to him that he lie to the Afghani police" { AE}  is a different matter.

[I see that Thomas has acknowledged the correction by Cagey.]

That said,  I don't dispute the clear British preference for the 'should' alternative wording**, and as Boozer said, it's preferred maybe 10:1 in my impression, in Britain (based on my non-scientific internet searches).  

"I suggest to him that he should lie to the Afghani police."   {British preferred.}

ADDED:
**More accurately, a British avoidance, in many cases (which in AE, are happy), of the subjunctive forms.


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## boozer

bennymix said:


> That said,  I don't dispute the clear British preference for the 'should' alternative wording**, and as Boozer said, it's preferred maybe 10:1 in my impression, in Britain (based on my non-scientific internet searches).
> 
> "I suggest to him that he should lie to the Afghani police."   {British preferred.}.


I surely will use your suggestion, Benny, if I should ever get caught by the Afghani police.


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## Pedro y La Torre

bennymix said:


> "I suggest to him that he should lie to the Afghani police."   {British preferred.}



I'd dissent from that opinion. _I suggest to him that he lie to the Afghani police_ would be preferable in my dialect of English, which is, if not part of BE, then about as close as one can get.


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## bennymix

Thanks, Pedro!  Are you talking about the south or the North?   It's good for us 'overseas' persons to note differences in British and formerly British-controlled lands, e.g. with the infamous, disappearing 'non-rhotic' *r*  which we often assume is archetypally British, if not English.


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## Pedro y La Torre

bennymix said:


> Thanks, Pedro!  Are you talking about the south or the North?   It's good for us 'overseas' persons to note differences in British and formerly British-controlled lands, e.g. with the infamous, disappearing 'non-rhotic' *r*  which we often assume is archetypally British, if not English.



I can only comment on southern Irish usage, but I believe the same is true of the North. 
Colloquial usage may well omit the subjunctive entirely, but ''educated speakers'' would not. And even in a colloquial setting I have the impression that the subjunctive has come back into fashion over the last decade or so.


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## amateur.jf

variegatedfoliage said:


> I'd say you can never go wrong using the subjunctive. *Its use is not so blatant that it sounds overly formal, and the truth is that people who don't know how to use it are not likely to even notice when it's used.*



I share this viewpont.  To say that it is "too formal/too posh-sounding" (as some have said in this thread), is, to me, an overstatement, and not something to be concerned about.


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## Thomas Tompion

Pedro y La Torre said:


> I'd dissent from that opinion. _I suggest to him that he lie to the Afghani police_ would be preferable in my dialect of English, which is, if not part of BE, then about as close as one can get.


We've noted before that the subjunctive is more in use in the Celtic fringe than in the more central parts of Britain.


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## Pedro y La Torre

The "fringe" still represents millions of native speakers.


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## Thomas Tompion

Pedro y La Torre said:


> The "fringe" still represents millions of native speakers.


I know.  I wasn't being disparaging.


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