# There's nobody with whom I can speak Italian



## sylvio dante

To say the following does one need the subjuctive or not? "There's nobody with whom I can speak Italian.". In other words, is it correct to say "Non c'e' nessuno con cui POSSA or POSSO parlare Italiano."? Grazie!


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## Heracleum

It depends on how polite/formal your sentence has to be 
formal:
"Non c'è nessuno con cui (io) possa parlare italiano."
This is the correct form.

But informally it's not that unusual to hear:
"Non c'è/_ci sta_ nessuno con cui _posso _parlare italiano."


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## Necsus

Hi, SD. Actually you can say either 'posso' or 'possa', even if in a negative sentence like this the subjunctive is maybe preferable, but in this case you also have another way to express it, directly with infinitive: 'non c'è nessuno con cui parlare italiano'.

Ops... I didn't see you, Heracleum.


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## housecameron

Necsus said:


> ..but in this case you also have another way to express it, directly with infinitive: 'non c'è nessuno con cui parlare italiano' .


 
Or more colloquial "_non ho nessuno con cui parlare italiano" _
__


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## Katiolina

Heracleum said:


> It depends on how polite/formal your sentence has to be
> formal:
> "Non c'è nessuno con cui (io) possa parlare italiano."
> This is the correct form.
> 
> But informally it's not that unusual to hear:
> "Non c'è/_ci sta_ nessuno con cui _posso _parlare italiano."



I do not agree with you Heracleum...
I'm trying to read up about this... but I don't think 
"Non ci sta nessuno con cui posso parlare italiano" is correct!

It does NOT sound good to me!
Maybe it's just my personal idea!

I would reather go for:
"Non c'è nessuno con cui possa parlare italiano"...

However... to Sylvio Dante...
If you need someone with whom you can speak Italian... well, I 'm quite sure you had found someone now...

K.


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## edfnl

Everybody would *say* "posso", unless in a very formal meeting...
Instead, while *writing*, the only correct form is "possa"!
You need to put a _congiuntivo _there.


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## Tristano

"Non ci sta" in questo contesto mi sembra errato.

o no?

Tristano


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## sylvio dante

edfnl said:


> Everybody would *say* "posso", unless in a very formal meeting...
> Instead, while *writing*, the only correct form is "possa"!
> You need to put a _congiuntivo _there.


Non si usa il congiuntivo quando si parla?


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## elenabiserna

Heracleum said:


> It depends on how polite/formal your sentence has to be
> formal:
> "Non c'è nessuno con cui (io) possa parlare italiano."
> This is the correct form.
> 
> But informally it's not that unusual to hear:
> "Non c'è/_ci sta_ nessuno con cui _posso _parlare italiano."




I won't use "non ci sta", I don't think it is correct.
I would always use the "congiuntivo" in both writings and speaking
"possa.


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## sylvio dante

elenabiserna said:


> I won't use "non ci sta", I don't think it is correct.
> I would always use the "congiuntivo" in both writings and speaking
> "possa.


Allora, tu usi 'possa' quando tu parli, non?


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## neuromatico

On the same theme:

_Ho bisogno di qualcuno che parli italiano._

I had understood that the _congiuntivo _was required in this construction.
Is that too rigid? Would you apply the same formal vs. informal rule?


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## Millefoglie

Hi sylvio dante!
the correct way to say it, both in the writing and in the speaking, is with the subjunctive.You never get wrong if you use it.

Anyway, it is true that if you go to Italy, you could hear some speaker using the indicative. This happens because there is the tendency, above all in the centre and southern regions, to eliminate the subjunctive. 
But I would like to underline that this doesn't mean that that way of speaking is grammatically correct. Therefore, I would suggest you to use the subjunctive .


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## giovannino

Millefoglie said:


> ...there is the tendency, *above all in the* *centre and southern regions*, to eliminate the subjunctive.


 

Do any of the other Italians agree? Is the whole of central and southern Italy guilty of _tentato congiuntivicidio_? What about the islands?


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## Angel.Aura

Millefoglie said:


> the correct way to say it, both in the writing and in the speaking, is with the subjunctive.You never get wrong if you use it. * Agree *


I completely agree with this statement. 



Millefoglie said:


> Anyway, it is true that if you go to Italy, you could hear some speaker using the indicative. This happens because there is the tendency, above all in the centre and southern regions, to eliminate the subjunctive.


I do not agree with this one, instead. 

Because I don't think it is a regional question we're dealing with. 
It's more a matter of linguistic register, a formal/normal speech opposed to an informal one.
I'd leave out the geographical and the cultural factors. I really don't think this is the point.



giovannino said:


> Do any of the other Italians agree? Is the whole of central and southern Italy guilty of _tentato congiuntivicidio_? What about the islands?


No dear giovannino, as you see I do not agree. 
And I'm not in the "kill the subjunctive" list, I swear (even though you may define me a _terrona_  )

Therefore, as I see it, we can use:
- Non c'è nessuno con cui (io) possa parlare italiano (cfr Heracleum, above)
- Non c'è nessuno con cui _posso _parlare italiano (cfr Heracleum, above)

Keeping in mind that the first one is more formal and the second one is not.

Solo la mia idea, amici.


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## neuromatico

giovannino said:


> Do any of the other Italians agree? Is the whole of central and southern Italy guilty of _tentato congiuntivicidio_? What about the islands?


Is this offence punishable by law?


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## elenabiserna

sylvio dante said:


> Allora, tu usi 'possa' quando tu parli, non?



Yes, I usually use the "congiuntivo"...or I try to use it!
Maybe sometimes I use the "indicativo" but it's not grammatically correct!

P.S. and I don't think is a matter of geography...the use of the indicative is really widespread!


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## Millefoglie

I talked about regional tendency because it is something I experienced. I come from Lazio and in my town there is the strong tendency to use the indicative instead of the conjunctive. But  now I'm studying in the north and I have had the chance to  notice that, though they do have this tendency, it is not so evident. Govannino, thank you for your kindness, really appreciated.


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## giovannino

Oh dear! It looks like I'll have to eat a huge portion of crow and humble pie It appears that Millefoglie is right so my sincere apologies to her.

"...[nella lingua scritta] il congiuntivo prevale nettamente sull’indicativo e si presenta, dunque, come un modo ben vitale e ampiamente usato.
Nel parlato, ovviamente, la frequenza dell’indicativo è più alta. Ma anche qui...il congiuntivo continua a prevalere sull’indicativo, tranne che in pochi casi, tra i quali spicca ancora una volta quello delle proposizioni rette da aggettivi epistemici...Ma negli altri contesti permane la prevalenza del congiuntivo, anche se le occorrenze dei due modi tendono ad avvicinarsi (*con un’espansione dell’indicativo nettamente maggiore nell’Italia centro-meridionale rispetto all’Italia centro-settentrionale*)"

link [with some interesting statistics, for those who want to explore the subject further]


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## edfnl

I use subjuntive too, when I'm speaking, but only if I'm in a formal situation. I'm not saying that anyone uses it anymore or that using it is wrong, on the contrary. 

But using it in an informal situation is odd, I may be a "terrona" as well, but it is just a question of "quieto vivere"!


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## sylvio dante

Millefoglie said:


> Hi sylvio dante!
> the correct way to say it, both in the writing and in the speaking, is with the subjunctive.You never get wrong if you use it.
> 
> Anyway, it is true that if you go to Italy, you could hear some speaker using the indicative. This happens because there is the tendency, above all in the centre and southern regions, to eliminate the subjunctive.
> But I would like to underline that this doesn't mean that that way of speaking is grammatically correct. Therefore, I would suggest you to use the subjunctive .


I really like your answer. It is not wrong to use the subjunctive at all. That's what I needed to hear. Your answer was concise and clear. The other comments are also very interesting and there are similar 'cultural/regional issues' with language in the US. But to a student of Italian a clear answer was just what I wanted. Thanks!


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## Millefoglie

You're welcome, the most important thing is that it is helpful for you ;-) !
ciao


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## Katiolina

Oh Gosh Sylvio Dante!
I didn't know my answer was going to open this thread again!

However I'm pleased so many people are arguing about this... even thought I do not agree with the most of them!

Guys, if you are not sure of what you are saying Please do not answer!

Every country have their "common mistakes"... as in English you can hear "do" instead of "does"... "you was" instead of "you were"... "If I was" instead of "If I were"...
But it doesn't mean it is correct!

Ragazzi, benchè dappertutto si faccia notare che nella lingua parlata si tende a sostituire l'uso dell'INDICATIVO al posto del CONGIUNTIVO...
Questo non significa che sia corretto...

Tuttavia, vi sono alcuni casi in cui il congiuntivo può essere sostituito dall'indicativo.
Questo avviene soltanto per proposizioni non "reggenti" ma "dipendenti"... ed ovviamente non in tutte... 

Alcuni esempi in cui è permesso utilizzare l'indicativo:

"Non vedendolo in giro, ho chiesto dove era finito" VS "Non vedendolo in giro, ho chiesto dove fosse finito"
"Sono dispiaciuta che tu non vieni domani" VS "Sono dispiaciuta che tu non venga domani"
"Non dico che tu sei scemo, ma..." VS "Non dico che tu sia scemo, ma..."
"Le ho chiesto se ha telefonato Marco"... VS "Le ho chiesto se avesse telefonato Marco"...

Personalmente, ritengo molto più adatto utilizzare sempre il congiuntivo anzichè l'indicativo...
Questo inoltre mi assicura di non sbagliare mai!

Non è possibile invece sostituire il congiuntivo con l'indicativo nelle seguenti frasi:

"A meno che tu non sia impazzito, ..."
"E' probabile che arrivi un temporale domani"
"E' meglio che tu faccia la doccia immediatamente"
"Spero che tu venga alla cena di capodanno" (da brivido "spero che tu vieni")...
"Verrò, a condizione che tu non ci siano le sardine"
"Ovunque tu sarai"
"Chiunque incontrerai"
"Qualunque cosa tu farai"... etc...

...
Sarebbe bello poter dare dei consigli validi a chi sta provando a studiare l'italiano,
considerando le molteplici difficoltà che si possono incontrare!

L'Italiano è una lingua così difficile da imparare... cerchiamo di non renderla ancora più complicata!

PS: Sylvio Dante, thank god "there was nobody with whom you could speak Italian"... otherwise you would have learned something WRONG!


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## kaiman

Katiolina said:


> Oh Gosh Sylvio Dante!
> 
> Every country have their "common mistakes"... as in English you can hear "do" instead of "does"... "you was" instead of "you were"... "If I was" instead of "If I were"...



..."have" instead of "has".... No offence meant... It was just too hard to resist


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## bise

Non è possibile invece sostituire il congiuntivo con l'indicativo nelle seguenti frasi:

"A meno che tu non sia impazzito, ..."
"E' probabile che arrivi un temporale domani"
"E' meglio che tu faccia la doccia immediatamente"
"Spero che tu venga alla cena di capodanno" (da brivido "spero che tu vieni")...
"Verrò, a condizione che tu non ci siano le sardine"
"Ovunque tu sarai"
"Chiunque incontrerai"
"Qualunque cosa tu farai"... etc...

...
To be clear with non Italian Speaker I would note that you have used the "indicativo futuro"...non il congiuntivo in the last 3 sentences you have written!!!

Le stesse frasi al congiuntivo sarebbero:
"ovunque tu sia"
"chiunque tu incontri" (in questo caso la forma coincide con quella dell'indicativo presente)
"qualunque cosa tu faccia"


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## anglomania1

Tristano said:


> "Non ci sta" in questo contesto mi sembra errato.
> 
> o no?
> 
> Tristano


 Hello, 
when I and my fellow English students first came to Italy, we made a lot of friends who were from the south of Italy. 
After a year we returned to the UK to graduate and our native Italian language professor was horrified to hear some of us using "stare" instead of "essere"!!!
I'd love to hear what the Italian natives have to say
Anglo


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## pupazzo77

anglomania1 said:


> Hello,
> when I and my fellow English students first came to Italy, we made a lot of friends who were from the south of Italy.
> After a year we returned to the UK to graduate and our native Italian language professor was horrified to hear some of us using "stare" instead of "essere"!!!
> I'd love to hear what the Italian natives have to say
> Anglo



Anglo,

you 're right, as usual ! 

I'm also agreed with you because I come from the North 

Cheers

Pup@z


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## anglomania1

Angel.Aura said:


> I do not agree with this one, instead.
> 
> Because I don't think it is a regional question we're dealing with.
> It's more a matter of linguistic register, a formal/normal speech opposed to an informal one.
> I'd leave out the geographical and the cultural factors. I really don't think this is the point.


 
I agree with you - it's not a north-south problem!! I live in Piacenza and can assure you that people don't use the subjunctive properly here either!! Whether they use it more in the north I can't say, but I can tell you that they certainly don't use it all the time!
Anglo


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## anglomania1

pupazzo77 said:


> Anglo,
> 
> you 're right, as usual !
> 
> I also agree with you because I come from the North  -  allow me a quick correction!! Thanks, Anglo
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Pup@z


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## pupazzo77

Dear Anglo,

thank you so much!

Ciao

Pup@z


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## kaiman

I know I'm gonna open up a bit of a debate, but sometimes using the _indicativo_ instead of the _congiuntivo_ is not necessarily a mistake. It sometimes just delivers a different meaning to a sentence. For instance, this "There's nobody with whom I can speak Italian" phrase makes an almost perfect example:
1) If you say "Non c'è nessuno con cui poss*o* parlare italiano" you're expressing a fact. You are stating that you cannot speak Italian to nobody here;
2) If you say "Non c'è nessuno con cui poss*a* parlare italiano" you're just saying that (so far) you haven't found anybody here you can speak Italian to (but yet there might be somebody you're not aware about you could speak Italian to).

Yes, there's a very slight difference, hardly detectable even to many native speakers but it does exist.
You can find further reference here:

http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/faq/faq_risp.php?id=4369&ctg_id=93


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## sylvio dante

kaiman said:


> I know I'm gonna open up a bit of a debate, but sometimes using the _indicativo_ instead of the _congiuntivo_ is not necessarily a mistake. It sometimes just delivers a different meaning to a sentence. For instance, this "There's nobody with whom I can speak Italian" phrase makes an almost perfect example:
> 1) If you say "Non c'è nessuno con cui poss*o* parlare italiano" you're expressing a fact. You are stating that you cannot speak Italian to nobody here;
> 2) If you say "Non c'è nessuno con cui poss*a* parlare italiano" you're just saying that (so far) you haven't found anybody here you can speak Italian to (but yet there might be somebody you're not aware about you could speak Italian to).
> 
> Yes, there's a very slight difference, hardly detectable even to many native speakers but it does exist.
> You can find further reference here:
> 
> http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/faq/faq_risp.php?id=4369&ctg_id=93


 Excellent point and example. Thanks for pointing out the subtleties(sottigliezze) in the language.


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