# bedeutete ... qua ... Rechts



## sedmont

*Context:* German revolution 1918, and Ebert, a Social Democratic Party leader, is very cautious and reluctant about the unfolding revolution.
*Problem: *I suspect neither of the below two English translations gets the meaning of the red German phrase.
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Von daher wird seine [Ebert's] Empörung über die eigenmächtige Ausrufung der Republik durch seinen Parteigenossen Philipp Scheidemann verständlich, bedeutete sie doch einen Bruch mit der Vergangenheit qua revolutionären Rechts.
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*1)* Thus his [Ebert's] indignation over his party comrade Philipp Scheidemann’s unauthorized proclamation of the republic is understandable, but the announcement signaled a break with the past, and represented the break as revolutionary justice. 

*2)* Thus his [Ebert's] indignation over his party comrade Philipp Scheidemann’s unauthorized proclamation of the republic is understandable, but the announcement presented a break with the past as revolutionary justice.

*3) *Thus his [Ebert's] indignation over his party comrade Philipp Scheidemann’s unauthorized proclamation of the republic is understandable, as the announcement presented a break with the past as revolutionary justice.


______________________________________________________________

Thanks for any assistance.


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## Demiurg

I think you can translate "qua" here as _by way of_ or _through_:

_... a break with the past by way of revolutionary law._


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## anahiseri

the third translation is the best. It's definitely *as, * not "but"


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## sedmont

Demiurg and anahiseri, thank you very much!

I'm not clear what "doch" means in the sentence -- I translated it as "but" in the first two English versions.


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## Demiurg

anahiseri said:


> the third translation is the best. It's definitely *as, * not "but"



I agree.



sedmont said:


> I'm not clear what "doch" means in the sentence -- I translated it as "but" in the first two English versions.



It's _doch_, meaning 2 (=> Duden)


> *2.* schließt eine begründende Aussage an
> Grammatik
> mit Inversion der vorangehenden Verbform
> Beispiel
> _er schwieg, sah er doch, dass alle Worte sinnlos waren_



You can rephrase it as:

_..., da sie einen Bruch mit der Vergangenheit qua revolutionären Rechts bedeutete.

... as it (the proclamation) amounted to a break with the past by way of revolutionary law._


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## sedmont

Thank you very much, Demiurg,
I'm having trouble understanding something in the Duden definition #2 -- in the Duden _doch _definition #2, the example sentence does not seem to invert the preceding verb form, but rather to confirm it. Maybe I don't understand 'invert' in this context.  Does "doch" mean "after all" here?: "He was quiet, after all, he saw that all words were senseless."

I understood _qua _as latin for "as being" or "in the capacity of" -- 
Your definition of _qua_ -- "by way of" or "through" -- makes the English sentence make sense -- but where do you find those definitions of "qua"?


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## bearded

Hello
I would translate this 'doch' by 'after all', too. The idea in 'doch' is (slightly) adversative, like ''contrary to what is/was thought or expected''.
As for 'qua', it is a Latin feminine ablative case (of the relative pronoun 'qui'), originally meaning ''through which''. When used in modern languages, it is a sort of preposition (through).
qua - WordReference.com Dictionary of English, ''Etymology''.


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## anahiseri

Sedmont, there IS an inversion in the DUDEN example:

*Sah er doch*      verb- subject


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## Demiurg

sedmont said:


> I'm having trouble understanding something in the Duden definition #2 -- in the Duden _doch _definition #2, the example sentence does not seem to invert the preceding verb form, but rather to confirm it. Maybe I don't understand 'invert' in this context.



The "inversion" is syntactically, not semantically.  Subject and verb are inverted:

_sah er doch_,  not _er sah doch 
bedeutete sie doch_,  not _sie bedeutete doch _

Edit: crossed with anahiseri



sedmont said:


> Does "doch" mean "after all" here?: "He was quiet, after all, he saw that all words were senseless."





bearded said:


> I would translate this 'doch' by 'after all', too.




That translation didn't occur to me.


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## anahiseri

Bearded, when you use it like this, *doch *is NOT adversative at all. 

i understand it's confusing because *doch *has 2 very different meanings, but here it's like English "as", so it states  a reason.


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## bearded

You are right, anahiseri, ''adversative'' is not the right term.  What I meant is 'doch' retains here a slight contrasting meaning (in spite of what is thought/might be thought...), like 'after all' in certain cases.


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## anahiseri

Well, bearded, I don't agree.  You could use *because* instead of *as *in your translation, it wouldn't change the meaning. And there's certainly nothing contrasting in *because.
*
In German, you could replace the *doch * by *denn.*


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## Alemanita

anahiseri said:


> In German, you could replace the *doch * by *denn.*


... and change again the word order: denn sie bedeutete einen Bruch ...


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## anahiseri

Alemanita said:


> ... and change again the word order: denn sie bedeutete einen Bruch ...



Ja, natürlich, das darf man nicht vergessen!


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## bearded

anahiseri said:


> You could use *because* instead of *as *in your translation


In my translation?



Demiurg said:


> That translation didn't occur to me.


Demiug approves of 'after all'...


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## anahiseri

bearded said:


> In my translation?
> 
> 
> Demiug approves of 'after all'...



Well, if you don't like the idea of putting *because* in your translation, then in what sense are you using *as *?


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## sedmont

bearded said:


> As for 'qua', ...when used in modern languages, it is a sort of preposition (through).
> qua - WordReference.com Dictionary of English, ''Etymology''.



Hi bearded,
I clicked on the link, but it does not seem to translate "qua" as "through" or "via" -- rather: "as" or "as being". Demiurg uses "by way of", which is equivalent to "via", and someone elsewhere suggested the same to me, but I have not been able to find such a translation of "qua" in the dictionaries I've checked. Only "as", "as being" or their equivalents. Any clarifications on this question would be much appreciated.


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## Alemanita

Bei Wiktionary:


Bedeutungen:
[1] mit Hilfe von
[2] gemäß, entsprechend
Herkunft:
lateinisch quā → la „wie, wo“[2]
Synonyme:
[1] durch, kraft, mittels, vermöge
[2] entsprechend, gemäß, nach, zufolge


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## sedmont

Alemanita, thank you, that's helpful.  
It seems qua has a different meaning in German than it has in English.


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## bearded

anahiseri said:


> in what sense are you using *as *


In which post # do you see _my _translation with 'as'?


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## Demiurg

bearded said:


> Demiug approves of 'after all'...



I would combine 'as' + 'after all', but I'm not sure where to insert it.
_
... as it amounted to a break with the past by way of revolutionary law after all._

However, native speakers may come up with a more elegant solution


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## anahiseri

bearded said:


> In which post # do you see _my _translation with 'as'?


I'm very sorry, it's sedmont who provided the translation, not you.


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## sedmont

Demiurg said:


> I would combine 'as' + 'after all', but I'm not sure where to insert it.



Thanks very much Demiurg!
I may use this:
_... as the announcement, after all, amounted to a break with the past via revolutionary law._


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## bearded

sedmont said:


> I may use this:
> _... as the announcement, after all, amounted to a break with the past via revolutionary law._


That's exactly my idea, too. Maybe you could use 'since' instead of 'as' (just a style choice).


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## sedmont

bearded, yes, good point, will look at that.

Thanks to Demiurg also, and to anahiseri and Alemanita.


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