# spaghetti



## french_immersion_kid

does anyone know what that would be in french? I can't seem to find it in any dictionary or internet    

                                    thank you 
                                             ~Krista~


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## OlivierG

It is "spaghetti" in French too. Isn't it an Italian term, anyway?


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## ishatar

What about "spaghetti à la bolognaise"? How do you say that in English?


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## DDT

"Spaghetti à la bolognaise" is the French transcription of the Italian "spaghetti alla bolognese" (which, despite of French cousins' appreciation, is not such a typical Italian way of preparing spaghetti).
There are several other Italians term being part of the French "cooking" language. "Panini" (literally meaning "sanwiches" in Italian) is among them, but it's used in a wrong way.
In France you can find two different main kinds of sandwiches: "sandwich", which is the normal two-slices-of-bread with sthg inside; and "panini", which is two-slices-of-white-bread with sthg inside being normally warmed in toasters: the problem is the name. French people do use "panini" for a single sandwich, yet "panini" is plural and I can make you sure it sounds pretty funny (to Italian ears) to hear people asking for one "panini" instead of one "panino" (the right singular form)  

DDT


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## Benjy

ishatar said:
			
		

> What about "spaghetti à la bolognaise"? How do you say that in English?



spaghetti bolognaise. whats funny tho is in england (someone correct me if im wrong ) the g is "soft" and pronounced in the same way as the french whereas is the states (at least the people that i have spoken to) seem to say it as if it was written bolog-naise with a hard g.


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## french_immersion_kid

thank you  sorry I just woke up and logged on but thank you for answering


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## Focalist

DDT said:
			
		

> French people do use "panini" for a single sandwich, yet "panini" is plural and I can make you sure it sounds pretty funny (to Italian ears) to hear people asking for one "panini" instead of one "panino" (the right singular form)
> 
> DDT


The situation in the UK is far, far more horrible even than that, DD. Over here, you see bills-of-fare offering *panini's* (apostrophe compulsory). Enough to give Lynne Truss the vapours...

F


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## beri

hey French_im_kid
I added you to my MSN list, if U don't mind  (pasouioui)


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## walnut

Focalist said:
			
		

> *panini's* F



From now, I'm going to ask for a panini's every time I can...  Sounds comic and nice to an italian ear (to me, at least!)   

Another philosophical mistery: is it true that what's called 'pizza pepperoni' in the US has not very much to do with a pizza + peppers (peperoni) on its top? 

CIao! Walnut


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## Focalist

walnut said:
			
		

> From now, I'm going to ask for a panini's every time I can.


Sorry, Walnut: you can have *one panini* or you can have *two panini's*  Come on, now: make up your mind! 

Here's another Italian to (British) English curiosity. These days you can find people queuing up in coffee shops all over Britain to ask for a "latte". Now because this designation has come to us not directly from Italy but via Seattle and U.S. television programmes, it gets pronounced, even here, "l*ah*-tay" _à l'américaine_  -- cf. British "Vietnamm" (rhymes with "ham") v. American "Vietnahm" (rhymes with "palm"). To a British ear, the Italian sounds much more like latt-tay (the Italian "flat a" is, in fact, a feature of attempts to imitate an Italian accent: Fly Alit*aa*lia -- aa as in Southern US waa aa traa = why I try).

What was that film (by Fellini?) with the advertising jingle:
_Bevete più latte..._?

F


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## walnut

Focalist said:
			
		

> Sorry, Walnut: you can have *one panini* or you can have *two panini's* Come on, now: make up your mind!



 You're right Focalist, how could I... well, I'll have to eat a lot just to talk cool  

[/QUOTE] .... To a British ear, the Italian sounds much more like latt-tay (the Italian "flat a" is, in fact, a feature of attempts to imitate an Italian accent: Fly Alit*aa*lia -- aa as in Southern US waa aa traa = why I try).
[/QUOTE]

Sk-aa-tou (skirt) sou-ripp-aa (slippers) sc-aa-fou (scarf)

I am amazed by the way each language sounds to the others. When I first heard english-derivated words in japanese and was asked to guess the meaning, I noticed it was much more probable to catch it with my 'italian ear' - the two languages have common attitudes in looking at eachother, I think. As it was discussed in another thread few days ago the way languages mix up can bring oversimplification and loss of identity, but can also be very creative and generate original solutions. Something similar to the way a baby child plays with languages when exploring for the first time the misterious world of spoken language, I love it!

PS Mistery gets thick... Do people queue up for having a latte = a cup of milk? Ealthy folks!  

[/QUOTE] What was that film (by Fellini?) with the advertising jingle:
_Bevete più latte..._? [/QUOTE]

Don't remember! Was there a girl on a tree and a train running on the background?  Walnut


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## Focalist

walnut said:
			
		

> Do people queue up for having a latte = a cup of milk?


Ha, ha! What a shock they'd get if they really _were_ served with a cup of milk  "But, but, I asked for a latte." "Si, signore: un latte".



> What was that film (by Fellini?) with the advertising jingle:
> _Bevete più latte..._?
> 
> 
> 
> Don't remember! Was there a girl on a tree and a train running on the background?
Click to expand...

I've looked for it on the web and it appears it was in a film called "Boccaccio 70". Trouble is, I can't remember ever seeing that film -- all I can recall is an enormous advertising poster (somewhere on the edge of an Italian city -- was there new building going on?) with that slogan on it, with the catchy jingle playing as the soundtrack: "Bevete più latte, il latte fa bene..."

You are quite right, by the way, about the different acoustic effects of different languages and the way they are heard by speakers of other languages. There's a whole book to be written about that subject. One day...!

F


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## Spicy

There is no traslation of Italian term spaghetti (I hope!   ).
And to say...."spaghetti bolognaise" sound horrible and grammatically incorrect to us   

It is a intentional distortion of an adjective
In Italian we says:
mila*nese* - for something that comes from Milano
bolog*nese* - for something that comes from Bologna
bolog*naise* - means nothing   - and we smile at it when we go abroad and read this name on labels.


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## OlivierG

Spicy said:
			
		

> There is no traslation of Italian term spaghetti (I hope!   ).
> And to say...."spaghetti bolognaise" sound horrible and grammatically incorrect to us
> 
> It is a intentional distortion of an adjective
> In Italian we says:
> mila*nese* - for something that comes from Milano
> bolog*nese* - for something that comes from Bologna
> bolog*naise* - means nothing   - and we smile at it when we go abroad and read this name on labels.



You should not smile. In French, what comes from "Bologne" (Bologna in Italian) is called "Bolognais", or "Bolognaise" if it is feminine.
When "Spaghetti bolognaise" appears on French labels, it is not supposed to be written in Italian, but in French.
It is not a distorsion, it is the correct French way to write this term.
In the same way, when English speakers say "Parisians" instead of "Parisiens", "French" instead of "Français", it is not considered as a mistake.


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## Focalist

Spicy said:
			
		

> There is no traslation of Italian term spaghetti (I hope!   ).
> And to say...."spaghetti bolognaise" sound horrible and grammatically incorrect to us
> 
> It is a intentional distortion of an adjective


Spaghetti bolognaise is no distortion in English either. It is quite simply the (by now thoroughly naturalized) Italian loanword "spaghetti" + the French loanword "bolognaise", the latter standing for "à la bolognaise" (in the Bolognese style). A suitably macaronic combination, nicht wahr?

Look at other examples of the names of this dish in other languages, like:
- espaguetis a la boloñesa (Spanish)
- espaguete à bolonhesa (Brazilian Portuguese)
- esparguete à bolonhesa (European Portuguese)

They are each using their own versions of the "à la + feminine adjective" (i.e.calques on the French expression), in each case using the Spanish/Portuguese words for Bolognese. (BTW, the English Bolognese only _looks_ like the Italian word; it is pronounced "bollanEEz".)

It so happens that the English calque on French "à la" extends to borrowing the following word intact from French too:  "à la bolognaise". What happens next is that the "à la" gets dropped, but this is a regular feature too: you can say "beef à la provençale" or "beef provençale", just as in French you can have "boeuf provençale" (masculine "boeuf" followed by feminine "provençale", because of the elided "à la"). This construction is widely used in English to describe food dishes. Another example: "chicken à la grecque" (the French for which is is "poulet à la grecque).

And  -- beyond the adaptations for spelling-conventions and grammar required by many languages (Spanish _espaguetis_, Estonian _spagetid_, Welsh _sbageti_, for example) -- there DO exist "translations" of _spaghetti_, not least of which (coming back to where we started) is the Bolognese word for spaghetti... *varmizî*!

F


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## Janna

The germans are not better for the italian expressions... and my italian husband always laughs seeing in Germany  german (!) products having italian names, spelled in a wrong way and - di più- with an plural "s" behind the -already plural- "i"...


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## Lucas

walnut said:
			
		

> From now, I'm going to ask for a panini's every time I can...  Sounds comic and nice to an italian ear (to me, at least!)



So, how are called paninis in Italy ? Caldo/i, right ?



> Another philosophical mistery: is it true that what's called 'pizza pepperoni' in the US has not very much to do with a pizza + peppers (peperoni) on its top?



I've always seen (in French pizzerias) pepperoni to designate slices of a spicy sausage (not chorizo). Is it a typical Italian sausage ?


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## Janna

by the way: the new german orthographie imposes now Spaghetti without an "h" - spagetti ... -


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## Benjy

hehe.. while we are on the subject.... i hate ordering from mcd's in france (and this isnt a dig..) cos there are a ton of "english" words on the menu but i can never prononouce them in such a way as to be understood  ESPECIALLY chicken nuggets. i suppose i should really just convince my family to try real french food when we are on holiday but sometimes i fear that they are just to british *sigh*


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## Sam

next time Benjy, ask for " des beignets de poulet" (translation for chicken nuggets) 
you should be understood,  :d


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## joelle

Or better, try french food!!!


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## Silvia

Walnut:
pizza pepperoni (who made up that word?!) is a pizza with salami, that is salame for the Italian speaking people reading this (tipo salame piccante calabrese).
If you want to laugh, I'll tell you this real story...
I'm vegetarian and 10 years ago during one of my first pleasure trips abroad, I felt I had to eat some real food   and unfortunately I had the bad idea to enter a pizzeria. I ordered that pizza peperoni, now I don't remember if it was written with one or two p's, anyway I had to send it back! I said: "I'm not going to eat this! I ordered pizza with peppers". They didn't question at all, after all it was THEIR fault, since they were claiming the restaurant was by all means Italian.

Lucas: 
caldo means hot sing. masculine
calda sing. fem.
caldi masc. plural
calde fem. plural

Curious thing:
for the first time in my life in Italy, in a shop selling organic food, I found maple syrup and decided to buy it. Well, it says: "sciroppo d'acero", the company is german and the syrup comes from Canada... talking of international food!!!


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## Lucas

I know what _caldo_ means, but I wanted to know if it also designates the kind of hot sandwiches called _paninis_ in France.


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## DDT

No, Lucas, if you're after a "panini" (the French way) while in Italy you'd better choose a "panino" and then ask to warm it up ("Me lo può scaldare, per favore" = "Can you warm it up, please?")  

Cheers,

DDT


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## french_immersion_kid

O no lol I don't mind sorry I haven't been on in a while


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## Peter Freeman

Spicy said:
			
		

> There is no traslation of Italian term spaghetti (I hope!  ).
> And to say...."spaghetti bolognaise" sound horrible and grammatically incorrect to us
> 
> It is a intentional distortion of an adjective
> In Italian we say:
> mila*nese* - for something that comes from Milano
> bolog*nese* - for something that comes from Bologna
> bolog*naise* - means nothing  - and we smile at it when we go abroad and read this name on labels.


I think it is French for Bolognese and derives from French menus.


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## Peter Freeman

silviap said:
			
		

> Walnut:
> pizza pepperoni (who made up that word?!) is a pizza with salami, that is salame for the Italian speaking people reading this (tipo salame piccante calabrese).
> If you want to laugh, I'll tell you this real story...
> I'm vegetarian and 10 years ago during one of my first pleasure trips abroad, I felt I had to eat some real food  and unfortunately I had the bad idea to enter a pizzeria. I ordered that pizza peperoni, now I don't remember if it was written with one or two p's, anyway I had to send it back! I said: "I'm not going to eat this! I ordered pizza with peppers". They didn't question at all, after all it was THEIR fault, since they were claiming the restaurant was by all means Italian.
> 
> Lucas:
> caldo means hot sing. masculine
> calda sing. fem.
> caldi masc. plural
> calde fem. plural
> 
> Curious thing:
> for the first time in my life in Italy, in a shop selling organic food, I found maple syrup and decided to buy it. Well, it says: "sciroppo d'acero", the company is german and the syrup comes from Canada... talking of international food!!!


I'm also vegetarian ; actually vegan. I think peperoni is a peppered sausage, in which case they were right and very accommodating. What you were wanting was probably peperonata or bell peppers. For future clarification the Italian for vegetarian is vegetariano.


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## Peter Freeman

DDT said:
			
		

> No, Lucas, if you're after a "panini" (the French way) while in Italy you'd better choose a "panino" and then ask to warm it up ("Me lo può scaldare, per favore" = "Can you warm it up, please?")
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> DDT


I never understand why Starbucks and other cafes in the UK always pluralise the single panino, or, for that matter, why they call coffee latte, meaning milk. Hardly any of their staff or customers can even pronounce that word correctly, usually saying lah-tay. Is this American pretentiousness linguistic ignorance or what?


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## french_immersion_kid

beri said:
			
		

> hey French_im_kid
> I added you to my MSN list, if U don't mind  (pasouioui)


No I don't mind lol sorry that was awhile ago I forgot to answer


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