# Ladino



## Mikk

Hi everybody!
Last month I was in the opening of an art exhibition in a gallery in England. There the artist told us a short history about herself: born in Greece from Albanian? Parents or something.
The question is she said her parents spoke "latdino", an ancient language now outdated which she claimed to be some sort of combination between early Spanish and Latin....
I was very curious about it, but can't find nowhere information about it...
Has anybody heard about that language? Did it really exist?


----------



## Jana337

Wasn't it Ladino, the language of Sephardic Jews? Latdino is almost certainly misspelled.

Jana


----------



## Mikk

hi Jana!
yes...it's actually the ladino.
It seems very interesting!
does anybody speak it here? or do you know anybody who use it?


----------



## ireney

I think that (at least in Greece) no one really speaks it any more (which is very sad if you ask me)

You may find the following URL interesting
http://www.kis.gr/home_en.html


----------



## Jana337

We've had a thread about it; please use the search function to locate it. No member of the forum speaks it actively as far as I know. Speakers of Romance languages, Spanish in particular, have a high chance of understanding it.

Jana


----------



## Mikk

Thanks ireney and Jana!


----------



## mansio

If you are interested to hear Ladino you can listen to the many songs that have been recorded in that language.


----------



## cirrus

If you go to this link you can hear programs in ladino. They call it djudeo espanyol. Radio Exterior - Web oficial - RTVE.es

"La Emision "SEFARAD" en lingua Djudeo-espanyola, es un programa aparejado por Matilda i Rajel Barnatan, ke destaka la fruchiguoza erensia ke guadraron los djudios de Espanya, i ke la grande parte se yevaron kon sí a las sivdades onde se aresentaron enturando el Mediterráneo , kontinuando kon este universo kultural."

What I don't know is what script ladino was originally written in.  Did they use hebrew, arabic or roman script?


----------



## Whodunit

cirrus said:
			
		

> What I don't know is what script ladino was originally written in. Did they use hebrew, arabic or roman script?


 
In the link given by Jana, you can find this:


> Today, Ladino is most commonly written with the Latin alphabet, especially in Turkey. However, it is still sometimes written in the Hebrew alphabet (especially in Rashi characters), a practice that was very common, possibly almost universal, until the 19th Century (and called aljamiado, by analogy with Arabic usage.) Although the Greek and Cyrillic alphabets have been employed in the past, this is rare nowadays.


----------



## Outsider

There was an old thread about Ladino... here it is!

 Not to be confused with Romansch, which is also called "Ladino", sometimes.


----------



## Mikk

wow! thank you all!
I've heard already the ladino radio program, it's very interesting listening to it. It's actually pronounced like XVI century Spanish (with some variants).
jejeje, I agree with the reporter that said about ladino ""You're speaking just like Cervantes" ....here (a very interesting page about ladino written by a native speaker) 
I found also "the Ladino page" (although in Spanish)...here. 
It says most part of sefaradic (ladino) literature was written in hebrew characters, and that's why it was sided out by the spanish linguists.
It has some photos of old written ladino....here
Anyways, 
thanks all!


----------



## mansio

Outsider

I think Rumantsch is called Ladin not Ladino.


----------



## Mikk

Outsider said:
			
		

> Not to be confused with Romansch, which is also called "Ladino", sometimes.





			
				mansio said:
			
		

> I think Rumantsch is called Ladin not Ladino.



...apparently one "o" at the end makes the difference:

according with answers.com
"Ro·mansh (...)
 The Rhaeto-Romance dialect that is an official language of Switzerland. Also called Ladin."

"La·di·no (...)
 A nearly extinct Romance language, descended from medieval Spanish, spoken by Sephardic Jews especially in the Balkans, Turkey, and the Near East. Also called Judeo-Spanish."

or perhaps a different one.....!!

look here:
"Although Ladin in Italian is referred to as "Ladino", this language should not be confused with another Romance language, Ladino (Judæo-Spanish)

Ladin (...) is a Rhaetian* language spoken in the Dolomite mountains in Italy between the regions of Trentino-Alto Adige and Veneto. It presents connections with the Swiss Romansh and Friulian (...)
(*Rhaeto-romance languages are a romance language sub-family which includes a few languages spoken in Switzerland)

or....who knows!!!  

 I found this:
"Gion A. Derungs from the organization "Lia Rumantscha" (Romansh language) confirmed to me that the "Swiss" Romanshs (that's how the Ladins call themselves here) don't have an own flag. It's a bit complicated with the terms Ladin and Romansh. "Romansh" can be used as generic term for the "Swiss" Romansh, the Italian Ladinic and the Friulic (Italy) dialects. (...) As for the "Swiss" Romanshs, it is correct to say that they speak Romansh (even if they come from the Ladinic sub-areas), but on the other hand, no Italian Ladine would call himself a Romansh, they just use the term Ladine (as far as I can see) (...)".


----------



## Pivra

Why do they speak it in the Balkans and Turkey but not Spain?


----------



## Jhorer Brishti

The Sephardic Jews were expelled from Spain after the Reconquista of the Iberian Peninsula from the Moors. Since their exodus the Sephardic Jews have settled in Northern Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe.


----------



## mansio

As far as I know the Sephardic Jews from Northern Africa did not speak Ladino only Arabic. They kept their Romance language only in non-Arab countries.


----------



## diegodbs

Jhorer Brishti said:
			
		

> The Sephardic Jews were expelled from Spain after the Reconquista of the Iberian Peninsula from the Moors. Since their exodus the Sephardic Jews have settled in Northern Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe.


 
...and their language remained almost as it was when they were in Spain. The changes and the normal evolution of the language in Spain didn't alter their way of speaking, theirs was a language spoken within the family and thus it remained almost unchanged.


----------



## mansio

Diego

...that they switched from Ladino to Arabic in North Africa was a huge "alteration of their way of speaking", don't you think so?


----------



## diegodbs

Sure it was, Mansio. I was only trying to tell Pivra why Ladino is not spoken in Spain. For us it is like a language of the past but those who speak Ladino in certain countries don't feel like that, it is the language they probably learned from their parents, and the changes that Ladino has probably had are different from those of Spanish as it is spoken in Spain nowadays.
In some countries they switched from Ladino to Arabic, as you say. In some other places they kept it.


----------



## Outsider

mansio said:
			
		

> As far as I know the Sephardic Jews from Northern Africa did not speak Ladino only Arabic.


They did keep speaking Ladino, for a while:



> Hay dos dialectos principales del ladino: el oriental y el occidental.
> 
> [...]
> 
> El dialecto occidental se desarrolló en el norte de *Marruecos* y recibe de sus hablantes el nombre de jaquetía.
> 
> La página del ladino





			
				diegodbs said:
			
		

> ...and their language remained almost as it was when they were in Spain. The changes and the normal evolution of the language in Spain didn't alter their way of speaking, theirs was a language spoken within the family and thus it remained almost unchanged.


Judging from this text, for example, Ladino has undergone changes of its own:

- the affricates /ts/, /dz/ have merged with /s/ and /z/ (this could have happened in Spain before they left);
- some words starting with _n-_ have switched to _m-_, for example _nuestro_  _muestro_;
- the palatal consonant <ll> has merged with the glide /y/ (another thing that happened already in Spain, or parallel evolution?);


----------



## diegodbs

> - the affricates /ts/, /dz/ have merged with /s/ and /z/ (this could have happened in Spain before they left);
> - some words starting with _n-_ have switched to _m-_, for example _nuestro_  _muestro_;
> - the palatal consonant <ll> has merged with the glide /y/ (another thing that happened already in Spain, or parallel evolution?);


 
Those affricates merged with /s/ and /z/ in Castilian just around the same century.

I have heard in some villages in Andalucía: *dámoslo *instead of *dánoslo *y "mos han dicho que..." instead of "nos han dicho que...."

"LL" and "Y". I'm not sure when they merged or if it was only something typical of Castilian (in Castile) and not in the rest of Spain (except Catalonia)


----------



## amikama

Nice thread with interesting links. 

My grandmother spoke Ladino (she called it _spanyolit_). Unfortunately, she passed away several years ago. 

After acquiring some level in Spanish (I hope my level is higher than intermediate ), I found out some weeks ago that I can read and understand Ladino quite easily (albeit not without difficulties). Of course my mother tongue, Hebrew, helps me a bit. I also found out that it's easier for me to read Ladino in the Latin script rather than in the Hebrew script (Rashi script is a bit harder).

Although Ladino (as a native language) is dying out, in the recent years more and more people 'discover' it. A Ladino-speaking theater play, _Bustan Sfaradi_, has been very successful (and it's still running, if I don't mistake). It is taught in one or two universities in Israel. I also know of an active Internet forum dedicated to Ladino. There's also a periodical in Ladino, Aki Yerushalayim. And so on... In short, Ladino is definitely not a forgotten language! (Good news, no? )


----------



## cirrus

Sorry, can you explain what Rashi script is? That's a new one for me. Do you mean Hebrew script?


----------



## amikama

Rashi alphabet is the same one as the Hebrew alphabet, but the letters are a bit 'deformed'.

Hebrew script:
א ב ג ד ה ו ז ח ט י כ ך ל מ ם נ ן ס ע פ ף צ ץ ק ר ש ת

Rashi script:
א ב ג ד ה ו ז ח ט י כ ך ל מ ם נ ן ס ע פ ף צ ץ ק ר ש ת


----------



## JLanguage

The second one is still the square Hebrew alphabet, not Rashi script. I've attached a picture with the square Hebrew alphabet and Rashi script below it. It seems you have to actually click on the attachment to see it.


			
				amikama said:
			
		

> In short, Ladino is definitely not a forgotten language! (Good news, no? )


 
Ladino is not a forgotten language, but as I understand it it's severely endangered and on its way to extinction (meaning having no native speakers). It's sad, but it's pretty much not being passed on to the next generation and according to ethnologue, most of the remaining speakers are over fifty. Would you disagree?


----------



## Pivra

amikama said:
			
		

> There's also a periodical in Ladino, Aki Yerushalayim.


 
How interesting, I could almost understand everything in that page, it seems almost like Spanish but written differently. I wonder who it would sound phonetically.

Is the site's name Aquí Jerusalén in Spanish?


----------



## cirrus

JLanguage said:
			
		

> Ladino is not a forgotten language, but as I understand it it's severely endangered and on its way to extinction (meaning having no native speakers). It's sad, but it's pretty much not being passed on to the next generation and according to ethnologue, most of the remaining speakers are over fifty. Would you disagree?



Is not the issue that there aren't any major centres left where ladino would still be spoken? Thessaloniki's thriving Sephardic community was liquidated by the Nazis during the war.  Elsewhere, for example in N Africa, many of the speakers have left for Israel and would now speak Hebrew because in effect that has been Israel's language policy for years.


----------



## amikama

JLanguage said:
			
		

> The second one is still the square Hebrew alphabet, not Rashi's script.


No, the second IS Rashi script. Maybe it appears as Rashi script on my screen, but not at yours?


----------



## Outsider

What's interesting for me is to confirm how much closer medieval Spanish was to Portuguese. For example, /s/ and /b/ are separate phonemes from /z/ and /v/. And I imagine the phoneme transcribed as <(d)j> is still pronounced as a postalveolar, rather than a velar consonant.



			
				Pivra said:
			
		

> How interesting, I could almost understand everything in that page, it seems almost like Spanish but written differently. I wonder who it would sound phonetically.


There's a link to a radio station in Ladino in the previous page.



			
				amikama said:
			
		

> No, the second IS Rashi script. Maybe it appears as Rashi script on my screen, but not at yours?


The two lines show up identical in my screen, too. But I can see the difference in the imagine posted by JLanguage.


----------



## JLanguage

amikama said:
			
		

> No, the second IS Rashi script. Maybe it appears as Rashi script on my screen, but not at yours?


 
It's quite possible you have to have a Rashi script font installed in order for it to display properly.


			
				cirrus said:
			
		

> Is not the issue that there aren't any major centres left where ladino would still be spoken? Thessaloniki's thriving Sephardic community was liquidated by the Nazis during the war. Elsewhere, for example in N Africa, many of the speakers have left for Israel and would now speak Hebrew because in effect that has been Israel's language policy for years.


 
You're right - Yiddish would be in the same situation, except that it's still the main language of some Hareidi (ultra-orthodox) Jewish communities in the US and Israel.


----------



## cirrus

JLanguage said:
			
		

> You're right - Yiddish would be in the same situation, except that it's still the main language of some Hareidi (ultra-orthodox) Jewish communities in the US and Israel.



There  are also parts of NE London where it is used each and every day.


----------



## panjabigator

Is it similar to Spanish and can someone provide some examples of it?  Is it still spoken?


----------



## avok

Hello, 

Ladino is still spoken in Turkey. After the expulsion from Spain, Jews found shelter in Turkey (ottoman empire) and have kept their language so far.

In Turkey, we have musical bands and even a pop band that sing in Ladino. You can listen to Ladino songs "Me Siento Alegre" (in this clip, Istanbul just looks perfect) "Para Ke Kero Yo Mas Bivir ", "Tus Kaveyos Lumnos Pretos " and "Entre Las Vuartas Paseando". 

It is a beautiful, historical and a magical language that has some Portuguese features.


----------



## MarX

Thanks a lot for the links, Avok!

Is Ladino still spoken day by day by younger people in Turkey?

Btw, the Ladino word for "hat" is identical to Manado-Malay (my parents' dialect) = *chapeo*


----------



## avok

Well, in Turkey there is also a (Jewish) pop band called Seferad that sings in Ladino and the singers are "young". They "sing" in Ladino but I am not sure if they speak it fluently. I guess many parents have not transmitted the language to their children and grandchildren and also most of them emigrated to Israel. So it is very hard even if not impossible to hear Ladino in the streets on daily basis in Istanbul.

Hat is "chapéu" in Portuguese so it is normal that ladino has a similar word. Maybe Manado-Malay borrowed the word from Portuguese.


----------



## Raff75

Pivra said:


> Why do they speak it in the Balkans and Turkey but not Spain?


That Jewish community was expelled from Spain in 1492, and they migrated to the territories of the Ottoman Empire (Balkans and others) and they settled down there until today. That´s why. Their language (Spanish XV century) was preserved for a long time although after the World War 2, mainly because 1-their massive extermination in Greece, and 2-the communism in Yugoslavia, the language has gone almost extinct today.


MarX said:


> Is Ladino still spoken day by day by younger people in Turkey?


Not really. The language was successfully preserved, spoken at home and heard in the streets in many places until WW2. Auschwitz, the communism, the nationalism and some other factors have swept away that beautiful language. It´s not extinct but almost. There is a movement today aimed to recover it.


panjabigator said:


> Is it similar to Spanish and can someone provide some examples of it?  Is it still spoken?


It´s actually Spanish with some archaic words, expressions, and grammatical structures. It sounds like Gallego a bit. It´s not as widely spread/used today as it was before WW2.


----------

