# Urdu: ziRRii



## Cilquiestsuens

Bonjour,

I was wondering if any one has ever come across the following word in prose or poetry:

زڑّی   ziRRii  

Is meaning is given as bakwaasii and I am wondering about its etymology, since it is the only word I ever came across having a tashdiid on a Re.


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## HZKhan

No, I haven't seen this word anywhere in prose or poetry yet.

In my opinion, this unpleasant word do not match the nature of _Urdu-e-mu'allaa_, hence even if the word was ever used, it is best to forget it forever.


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## mundiya

Original word is jaTal ...


> H زڙي _ziṛṛi_, s.m.=_zaṭallī_, q.v.
> 
> H زٿلي _zaṭallī_ [_zaṭal_, q.v.+Prk. इओ=S. इक (इन्+कः)], s.m. One who talks nonsense, &c. (=_zaṭal-bāz_).
> 
> H زٿل _zaṭal_ [for H. जटल; prob. S. जड+Prk. डी=S.  ल+ई], s.f. Chattering, chatter, foolish prating, nonsense, false oridle stories, quibbling, tattle:—_zaṭal uṛānā_, v.n.=_zaṭal mārnā_, q.v.:—_zaṭal-bāz_, s.m. One who talks nonsense; one who tells false and idle stories:—_zaṭal-qāfiya_, s.m.=_zaṭal:—zaṭal mārnā_, _zaṭal hāṅknā_, v.n. To talk nonsense; to quibble; to tell false and idle stories.
> 
> H جٿل जटल _jaṭal_ [Prk. जडिला; S. जटिला; or  _jaṭ_ = _juṭ˚_, rt. of _juṭnā_+Prk. अडो=S. लः], s.f. False or idle tale, a yarn, fabrication, &c.=_zaṭal_, q.v.


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## Cilquiestsuens

mundiya said:


> Original word is jaTal ...



It seems you're quoting Platts. Do you have ever come across the word used in Hindi prose or poetry?


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## mundiya

Cilquiestsuens said:


> It seems you're quoting Platts.



Yes, it's from Platts.


> Do you have ever come across the word used in Hindi prose or poetry?



I have for jaTal but not ziRRii.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Thank you for your answer.


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## tarkshya

Etymologically, the word does not make sense. /z/ is a non-Indic phoneme, and /R/ (i.e ڑ , retroflex d) is an Indic phoneme. To me it looks like a spelling mistake.


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## Qureshpor

tarkshya said:


> Etymologically, the word does not make sense. /z/ is a non-Indic phoneme, and /R/ (i.e ڑ , retroflex d)is an Indic phoneme. To me it looks like a spelling mistake.


What you are saying is logical. But what is the explanation for these examples?

axroT, zaTall/zaTallii, chaTaxnii, Taxnah, chaTxaare lenaa, Tarxaanaa, xarraaTe lenaa, paTaxnaa, kalii kaa chaTaxnaa, GhunDaa, GhaTaa-GhaT, zannaaTaa, GhaTar-GhuuN...All Urdu words. All spelling mistakes?


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Bonjour,
> 
> I was wondering if any one has ever come across the following word in prose or poetry:
> 
> زڑّی   ziRRii
> 
> Is meaning is given as bakwaasii and I am wondering about its etymology, since it is the only word I ever came across having a tashdiid on a Re.


It need not have a tashdiid. ziR > ziRii, ziR being the quality and ziRii, possessor of the quality.

kuchh kahiye vahii bas ek ziR hai
nafrat hai mujhe, yih merii chiR hai

*3aashiq

*The verbs are ziR maarnaa and ziR haaNknaa


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## HZKhan

/z/ is a fully nativized phoneme in Urdu.


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## tarkshya

Pakistani Khan said:


> /z/ is a fully nativized phoneme in Urdu.



Nativized is not same as native.


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## tarkshya

My suspicion is that many of these words are really spelt with Indic phoneme /kh/ instead of /x/,  and indic /g/ instead of /gh/  (*غ*).

Can you type your example words in Nastaliq? If what you are saying is correct then it will certainly be a surprising discovery for me.



Qureshpor said:


> What you are saying is logical. But what is the explanation for these examples?
> 
> axroT, zaTall/zaTallii, chaTaxnii, Taxnah, chaTxaare lenaa, Tarxaanaa, xarraaTe lenaa, paTaxnaa, kalii kaa chaTaxnaa, GhunDaa, GhaTaa-GhaT, zannaaTaa, GhaTar-GhuuN...All Urdu words. All spelling mistakes?


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## marrish

tarkshya, this Forum doesn't support Nastaliq (edit: but for your pleasure this picture contains all these words):


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## HZKhan

tarkshya said:


> Nativized is not same as native.


The phoneme has been in use since the very beginning of a distinct literary Urdu language, therefore, as far as Urdu is concerned, one could call it a native phoneme.


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## marrish

^ My full  agreement.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Qureshpor said:


> It need not have a tashdiid. ziR > ziRii, ziR being the quality and ziRii, possessor of the quality.



And yet it is the way it is given in both Platts and Feroz ul Lughat, with a shadda on it. Never as ZiRii



Qureshpor said:


> kuchh kahiye vahii bas ek ziR hai
> nafrat hai mujhe, yih merii chiR hai
> 
> *3aashiq
> 
> *The verbs are ziR maarnaa and ziR haaNknaa



Thank you for the quote.


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> And yet it is the way it is given in both Platts and Feroz ul Lughat, with a shadda on it. Never as ZiRii۔ Thank you for the quote.


You are most welcome. Both the Farhang-i-Asifiyyah and Nur-ul-LuGhaat have it as ​زڑی  without the shadd


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## Cilquiestsuens

Qureshpor said:


> You are most welcome. Both the Farhang-i-Asifiyyah and Nur-ul-LuGhaat have it as ​زڑی  without the shadd



Thanks again. Not only does the _*shaddah*_ make little sense here, but as mentioned already by Pakistani Khan Sb., the word becomes quite an ugly tongue twister with it.


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## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Thanks again. Not only does the _*shaddah*_ make little sense here, but as mentioned already by Pakistani Khan Sb., the word becomes quite an ugly tongue twister with it.


This my friend is a matter of taste! One could say that Sanskrit (possibly) has the most "tongue-twisters". It depends on what the tongue is used to.


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## HZKhan

There is a school of thought in Urdu literature which considers all the words with R/ڑ as _xilaaf-i-fasaahat_.


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## Qureshpor

Pakistani Khan said:


> There is a school of thought in Urdu literature which considers all the words with R/ڑ as _xilaaf-i-fasaahat_.


Well, this school needs to be closed down or R removed from Urdu altogether. The latter is of course neither possible nor desirable since without a R, where would Urdu be? nah ham ko'ii kitaab "par" sakeN ge aur nah hii yih kah sakeN ge..

kahte ho nah deN ge ham, dil agar "paraa" paayaa
dil kahaaN kih gum kiije. ham ne mudda3aa paayaa

tirii naazukii se jaanaa kih bandhaa thaa 3ahd bodaa
kabhii tuu nah "tor" saktaa agar ustuvaar hotaa

yaa yih kih

raat ko aag aur din ko dhuup
"bhaar" meN jaa'eN aise lail-o-nahaar


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