# 数学が得意だけれど、英語は苦手だ



## lammn

To moderator: please feel free to split this into a new thread because we are now discussing the difference between が and は.

Hello, Strutter,

First of all, thank you very much for your detailed reply. 



Strutter said:


> Isn't は a topic marker?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I think so. And also I want to show this point clearly; both が and は is a topic marker.
Click to expand...

 
Sorry, my previous question is actually a rhetoric question. (It is equivalent to ～じゃないんですか)
は is indeed a "topic marker", while が is called a "subject marker".



Strutter said:


> I think the problem which bothers you is caused by this point; what is a different between は and が?


Bingo!



Strutter said:


> As my opinion, in general, が emphasizes the word before itself, は does the word after itself.


I have heard similar opinions before.

However, I still find it difficult to apply this theory into your example sentences.
If が emphasizes the word before it, while は emphasizes the word after it, then I will have to draw a conclusion that in the sentence 数学*が*得意だけれど、英語*は*苦手だ, the emphasis is put on "mathematics" (the word before が）, as well as "is poor" (the word after は), but obviously this is not the case.

So what is going on here?


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## almostfreebird

I think both sentences have to be considered in context:

(１)　 Betty: あなたは何が得意？
     Tom: 数学が得意だけれど、英語は苦手だ。＝数学が得意だよ。　けど、英語は苦手なんだ。

Although Tom's main answer is "数学が得意だ" and "英語は苦手だ" is additional,
it seems Tom wants to emphasize "英語は苦手だ".



(２)  Betty: あなた、数学すごいね。
     Tom: 数学は得意だけれど、英語が苦手だ。＝数学は得意だよ。（Tom is happy now because of Betty's statement）　けど、英語が苦手なんだ。

I think Tom must be glad and proud because of Betty's statement, and it seems 
he is modestly adding "英語が苦手だ", not really emphasizing it.



Strutter said:


> As my opinion, in general,  が emphasizes the word before itself,  は does the word after itself.


It's the strangest thing I've ever heard.


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## Wishfull

Hi.
Which do you think has stronger emphasis, with the topic maker or with the subject maker?
I watched Japanese grammar book written in English. Here it is.

(Topic maker)
How do you decide if an expression is a topic, marked with _*wa*_, or a subject, marked with _*ga*_? Both look like the subject of an English sentence!

 Think of the topic as a comment on something that has already been introduced into the conversation, or that is part of general or shared knowledge. As such, *wa* can mean
"Speaking of (the)....." or "As for (the)."


(Subject maker)
*Ga * marks what the Japanese call the grammatical _subject_ of a sentence. Think of the subject in the following two ways;
 First, in neutral descriptions of observable actions or situations.
Examples 
Tegami ga kimashita. /The mail came.

 Second, for special emphasis, to distinguish a particular person or thing from all others.
Examples
Watakushi ga shimashita. /I did it. (I am the one who did it.)
Tokyo ga ookiidesu. /Tokyo is big. (It is Tokyo that is big.)

According to the explanation above, we can see that the subject maker can emphasis stronger than the topic maker. My feeling of the example sentence of math/English and ga/wa is the same as Strutter.
Though I don't disagree with his explanation of before/after matter. 
I think ga and wa are always related to just before noun, not after.


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## Strutter

lammn said:


> Originally Posted by *Strutter*
> As my opinion, in general,  が emphasizes the word before itself,  は does the word after itself.
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard similar opinions before.
> 
> However, I still find it difficult to apply this theory into your example sentences.
> If が emphasizes the word before it, while は emphasizes the word after it, then I will have to draw a conclusion that in the sentence 数学*が*得意だけれど、英語*は*苦手だ, the emphasis is put on "mathematics" (the word before が）, as well as "is poor" (the word after は), but obviously this is not the case.
> 
> So what is going on here?
Click to expand...


I'm Sorry for confusing you.　ごめんなさい

You can clearly find the function of は/が which I'm insisting in a short/easy sentence;

E.g. 
これをやったの*は*誰ですか？　= 誰*が*これをやったのですか？
これをやったの*が*誰ですか？, 誰*は*これをやったのですか？← I'm sure Japanese people never say so.

On the other hands, that gets to difficult in a long/difficult sentence.

私*が*数学の試験に合格しなかったの*が*、突然傾向*が*変わったことによるものなのか、それとも単に私*が*勉強不足だったせいによるのか*は*、簡単には特定できない。

私*は*、数学の試験に合格しなかったの*は*、突然傾向*が*変わったことによるものなのか、それとも単に私*が*勉強不足だったせいによるのか*が*、簡単には特定できない。

Both of the above sentences are correct and there is a subtle difference in nuance. Anyway, が emphasizes the word/phrase before itself and　は does after itself.

My answer to your question about 数学*が*得意だけれど、英語*は*苦手だ is this;

Question;得意教科*は*なんですか？ =　何*が*得意教科なのですか？
Answer;数学*が*得意です。 = 得意教科*は*数学です。

In sort. when you have to answer to the question about "得意教科" only, _something* が *得意です, 得意教科__* は *something__です_ or something like such is an universal answer, even so_,  __something* は *得意です_ is also one possible answer which is used when you want to modestly say "I'm good at something"; I'm sure the function of は makes it sound modest.

With 数学*が*得意だけれど、英語*は*苦手だ,
= 数学が得意 + 英語は苦手
=normal + modest
so, the former is relatively emphasized to the later.

There is no doubt this sentence is affected by also others , e.g.;an effect on emphasis which is caused by the position in which a word/phrase exists , the function of だけれど and so on. Anyway, my opinion is not changed.

Thank again you for readings.


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## lammn

almostfreebird said:


> (１)　 Betty: あなたは何が得意？
> Tom: 数学が得意だけれど、英語は苦手だ。＝数学が得意だよ。　けど、英語は苦手なんだ。
> 
> Although Tom's main answer is "数学が得意だ" and "英語は苦手だ" is additional,
> it seems Tom wants *to emphasize "英語は苦手だ*".


 
This is what I think. I think the emphasis is on 英語は苦手だ.
But Strutter and Wishfull don't seem to agree. （苦笑）



Wishfull said:


> (Subject maker)
> *Ga *marks what the Japanese call the grammatical _subject_ of a sentence. Think of the subject in the following two ways;
> First, in neutral descriptions of observable actions or situations.
> Examples
> Tegami ga kimashita. /The mail came.
> 
> Second, for special emphasis, to distinguish a particular person or thing from all others.
> Examples
> Watakushi ga shimashita. /I did it. (I am the one who did it.)
> Tokyo ga ookiidesu. /Tokyo is big. (It is Tokyo that is big.)


 
Wishfull, it's amazing that you, being a native Japanese, to have read a Japanese grammar book written in English. 

Could you tell me how to distinguish whether が, the subject marker, is used as (a) neutral descriptions of observable actions or situations; or (b) for special emphasis, to distinguish a particular person or thing from all others in the example sentence "数学*が*得意だけれど、英語*は*苦手だ。", and why?



Strutter said:


> _something* は *得意です_ is also one possible answer which is used when you want to modestly say "I'm good at something"; I'm sure the function of は makes it sound modest.
> 
> With 数学*が*得意だけれど、英語*は*苦手だ,
> = 数学が得意 + 英語は苦手
> =normal + modest
> so, the former is relatively emphasized to the later.


 
Hello Strutter,

Can you tell me why は would make the sentence sound modest? 
If I rewrite the sentence as follows:

数学*が*苦手だけれど、英語*は*得意だ。

Will you still insist that "は makes it sound modest"?
No? Why?


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## almostfreebird

(A) 私が数学の試験に合格しなかったのが、突然傾向が変わったことによるものなのか、それとも単に私が勉強不足だったせいによるのかは、簡単には特定できない。--->>

--->私が数学の試験に合格しなかった理由が(を)、*私は簡単には特定できない*。　突然傾向が変わったことによるものなのか、それとも単に私が勉強不足だったせいによるのか。--->>I can't say clearly the reason why I flunked math, whether it's because of sudden change of its way or lack of my effort.




(B) 私は、数学の試験に合格しなかったのは、突然傾向が変わったことによるものなのか、それとも単に私が勉強不足だったせいによるのかが、簡単には特定できない。--->>

--->*私は簡単には特定できない。* 私が数学の試験に合格しなかった理由が、突然傾向が変わったことによるものなのか、それとも単に私が勉強不足だったせいによるのか。--->>I can't say clearly the reason why I flunked math, whether it's because of sudden change of its way or lack of my effort.






Strutter said:


> Anyway, my opinion is not changed.
> Thank again you for readings.



By the way, do you agree with my opinion in #8, or disagree?


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## Wishfull

Could you tell me how to distinguish whether が, the subject marker, is used as (a) neutral descriptions of observable actions or situations; or (b) for special emphasis, to distinguish a particular person or thing from all others in the example sentence "数学*が*得意だけれど、英語*は*苦手だ。".

Hi.
I think it is not only the matter of ha/ga differences.
But also it is the matter of word order.

数学が得意だけれど、*英語は苦手だ*。
数学は得意だけれど、*英語が苦手だ*。
数学が得意だけれど、*英語が苦手だ*。
数学は得意だけれど、*英語は苦手だ*。

If a Japanese thinks usually, the latter sentence is the main sentence, which should be emphasize. Because in Japanese language the most important/emphasis point comes at the last of a sentence.

But in some occasions, a Japanese may say what he wants to say first, then followed by additional information, which may be excuse, or which may function as modesty. 

So we cannot decide which (before-half or latter-half) is more important.

I think ga/ha difference is the same thing. There is no definite rule in Japanese grammar.

It depends on the context, and individual preference.

I can understand both almostfreebird's and strutter's.

//////////////

BTW, 

(a) neutral descriptions of observable actions or situations; or (b) for special emphasis, to distinguish a particular person or thing from all others 


歯が抜けた　（a)
私が「へんなおじさん」　（By 志村けん）　（ｂ）
他の野菜はみんなきらいだけれど、ナスが好き　（ｂ）
他の野菜はみんなきらいだけれど、ナスは好き　（ｂ）


世の中の野菜が消えてなくなればいいのに。野菜なんてみんなきらいだ、ナスは好きだけど。（言い訳）
世の中の野菜が消えてなくなればいいのに。野菜なんてみんなきらいだ、ナスが好きだけど。

基本的にベジタリアンですが、肉の中では馬肉が好きです。　（ｂ）
基本的にベジタリアンですが、肉の中では馬肉は好きです。　「は」の繰り返し。
基本的にベジタリアンですが、馬肉は好きです。　（ｂ）

Hi. lammn, I think this issue is not easy.
Maybe we judge from the context and pronunciation (way of speaking).
When he says ha or ga in a loud voice, then it is the point he wants to emphasis. :tongue:


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## Strutter

lammn said:


> Hello Strutter,
> 
> Can you tell me why は would make the sentence sound modest?
> If I rewrite the sentence as follows:
> 
> 数学*が*苦手だけれど、英語*は*得意だ。
> 
> Will you still insist that "は makes it sound modest"?
> No? Why?



Yes, I will insist. 



> why は would make the sentence sound modest


Do you think there is no difference between  私は寿司*が*好きだ and 私は寿司*は*好きだ?

If you think so, it seems there is nothing I can say.
If you don't, that is exactly the reason.



almostfreebird said:


> By the way, do you agree with my opinion in #8, or disagree?



I agree on this point "_both sentences have to be considered in context"._


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## almostfreebird

Strutter said:


> Yes, I will insist.
> 
> Do you think there is no difference between  私は寿司*が*好きだ and 私は寿司*は*好きだ?




When you just say "私は寿司は好きだ", it seems you are modestly hiding what you really want to say like:

私は寿司は好きだ。　（けれどもあの寿司屋は汚いから行きたくないんだ。）
So if you say without hiding it, you should modestly say the hidden part.

私は寿司は好きだ。けれどもあの寿司屋は汚いから行きたくないんだ。


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## lammn

almostfreebird said:


> When you just say "私は寿司は好きだ", it seems you are modestly hiding what you really want to say like:
> 
> 私は寿司は好きだ。　（けれどもあの寿司屋は汚いから行きたくないんだ。）
> So if you say without hiding it, you should modestly say the hidden part.
> 
> 私は寿司は好きだ。けれどもあの寿司屋は汚いから行きたくないんだ。


 
That is enlightening!
I didn't know that there is such a connotation with the sentence.

Now I beg all of you to bear with my ignorance. I really want to know when to use が and when to use は, and their implications.
My conclusion is as follows, and please correct me if I am wrong:

The "normal" way of expressing one's ability or preference is to use the particle が. For example:

(1)（私は）数学*が*得意です。
(2)（私は）寿司*が*好きです。

But if you want to say something that is contrasting to what you have just said, or you want to draw people's attention to something they don't expected, you will have to use は:

(3)（私は）数学が\は得意ですが、英語*は*苦手です。(contrasting)
(4)（私は）寿司*は*好きです。(けれども...）(a modest way of saying something people don't expected)

Or am I on the wrong track?
よろしくお願いします。


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## almostfreebird

lammn said:


> (4)（私は）寿司*は*好きです。(けれども...）(a modest way of saying something people don't expected)



You could say like this:
私は寿司は好きだ。*けれどもあの寿司屋は汚いから行きたくないんだ。*
exaggerating the last part, but it sounds like comedy to get a laugh.


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