# German Wüste (was: Germanic *wuste)



## john welch

G. _wuste_ < PIE * va:stos. It is possibly Greek _vatika_. Gaelic form is _fas_. Is there an Iranian / Avestan form *vat -.?


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## berndf

Can you explain what you mean? I don't know any word _wuste _in any Germanic language. What does it mean and in which Germanic language?


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## john welch

I don't have umlaut, so it's wu'ste ..sorry.


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## berndf

You mean German (not Germanic) _Wüste = desert_?


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## Skatinginbc

German: _wüst _< Old High German _wuosti_ < Proto-Germanic *_wōst_- (Old English _wōsti_, Old Saxon _wēste_) < Proto-IE *_wāsto_- 'wasted, empty' (Old Irish _fās_, Latin _vāstus_). 
Indo-Iranian _w__āshud_ 'opening, dispersing' could be related (pure guess  though I would expect something like _*vāšta _in Avestan if it came from Proto-IE).


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## john welch

Yes I was throwing a net to see if the form *vat existed in Gmc or any European origins. It is Skt and also Etruscan , and perhaps Greeks borrowed it from Phoenicians, as it is in south Greece at Voies, with the Persian toponym "Paradisi" there and Rhodes.  Etr. "vatieke" as "dedicated (shrine)" shows the change from "vast. desert" to "royal enclosure. walled garden" as in Persian desert-paradises. Greeks didn't paint paradise scenes and maybe Germanics and Celts didn't.


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## fdb

Skatinginbc said:


> Indo-Iranian _w__āshud_ 'opening, dispersing'



I assume you are thinking of Middle Persian _wi__šād_  “open, loose” (adjective), _wi__šādan_ “to open, to let loose” (> New Persian _gu__šādan_). This comes from the preverb _wi-_ plus the root _h__ā_ “to bind”; _wi+h__ā_+_tani_ > _wi__šādan_ means “unbind” and is not related to the IE “waste” words.


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## berndf

john welch said:


> ...as it is in south Greece at Voies.


The <Β> in _*Β*__οιές _has nothing to to with the <W> in _*W*üste _or _*w*aste _or the <V> in Latin _*v*astus_.


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## john welch

Yes at Voies /Boios, the common name for that region is Vatika. It seems to be Laconian with a 'Vatika' village near a hot spring suggesting the semantic 'paradise' connection with Skt _vataka_.


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## fdb

I know that Bernd explained this already, but let’s have another go. Modern Greek /v/ is classical Greek and Indo-European /b/. So it cannot have anything to do with Sanskrit /v/.


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## john welch

Right. Then probably the toponym "Vatika" in the extreme south is a loan-word of Tsakonian (exo Laconian) conservative dialect, as the word seems unknown in dictionaries. It means "oil of olive trees".  In Gugarat and Pali Sanskrit, "vatika" means "garden, orchard" connected with warrior-deities Kalki and Hanuman.  Perhaps borowed from Hurrian-Phoenicia and maybe is also in Etruscan "vatieke" meaning "dedicated" shrine with walled enclosure, like the Indian "vatika" garden design system.


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## berndf

john welch said:


> Right. Then probably the toponym "Vatika" in  the extreme south is a loan-word of Tsakonian (exo Laconian)  conservative dialect, as the word seems unknown in  dictionaries.


Also in Doric Greek (from which Tsakonian is  derived), a B was a B was a B and not a Ϝ, the ancient Greek letter for  the sound /w/. To give some credence to your theory you'd need to find  an ancient spelling of the name without a Ϝ, or at least without a B,  because in later Doric Greek the Ϝ was omitted. He do not know for sure,  if Doric had really lost the sound as all other Greek dialects or  whether it just wasn't written any more.

In summary, the likelihood is that you're casing a red herring.


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## sotos

The Gr. _vatika_ (found in some local dialects only) possibly comes from the w. βάτος (shrub) and means "a field with shrubs", i.e. the opposite of cultivated gardens.


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## apmoy70

And if I may add, the names of regions «Βόϊον» & «Βοιές» are cognate to «Βοιωτία» Boeotia <  PIE **gʷ*ṓws, _cattle_


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## john welch

Batos is interesting. It's not *patos as in PIE *vetos> Skt vatsa, Cl Gr petranos, (etos) ,Mod Gr beteranos.
Maybe PIE* vastos> Gr batos?
The semantic Persian paradise was a "vast" hunting estate with watered gardens in the desert. Perhaps the Iranian-Indic _vatika_ was culturally foreign to ancient Greece and survived outside written texts. It exists today without background.


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## berndf

john welch said:


> Maybe PIE* vastos> Gr batos?


Ok, fourth attempt: Greek Beta is not derived from PIE /w/.


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## john welch

I'm presuming a loan-word due to Persian-Gr cultural difference. Vatika from Cl Gr *_batos-ika _is:
*suffix* of nouns that denote a body of facts, knowledge, principles, *...* ( *Greek* -*ika*, neuter plural of -ikos).
So _Vatika_ "olive oil" is : "body of facts of field shrubs" which is unusual semantics.
A Greek common-name (slang?) for the basic oil of life is not likely to be a modern loanword. Maybe _vatika _was copied phonetically as used in a prestigious way by Persian-Phoenicians, associated with royals / deities.


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## berndf

I have difficulties following you. Who should have exactly borrowed what from whom? Please remember that /v/ existed only in Persian. Neither Classical Greek nor Phoenician had this sound.


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## john welch

I'm claiming that in classic Greek era , Laconians borrowed the possibly Phoenician _vatika_ as a common, unwritten slang term for a garden or olive grove.( Possibly in derogatory way as in royal "throne" > "toilet". Islamic Crescent> croissant "pastry"). As *batos-ika seems  a wrong etymology, then maybe the verbal term "vatika" was expressed with whatever consonant fitted audibly to the foreign sound and finally was written onto maps with /v/.


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## berndf

Well, _/vatika_/ is *not *a possible Phonetician word. It is not unimportant what initial sound you assume because you need to demonstrate that the development path is based on testable rules; otherwise the whole thing is just baseless speculation.


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## john welch

Another speculation is that Persian presence in Greece-Ionia gave a direct loan. Or that Greeks in Bactria-Punjab brought the word home to coastal Greece.  A domestic etymology appears difficult.


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## fdb

john welch said:


> Another speculation is that Persian presence in Greece-Ionia gave a direct loan.



There is no such word in Persian.



john welch said:


> Or that Greeks in Bactria-Punjab brought the word home to coastal Greece.



Nor in Bactrian.


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## Wolverine9

If there is no other logical explanation, the Greek word may have been borrowed from a pre-IE language of the region.


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## apmoy70

john welch said:


> I'm presuming a loan-word due to Persian-Gr cultural difference. Vatika from Cl Gr *_batos-ika _is:
> *suffix* of nouns that denote a body of facts, knowledge, principles, *...* ( *Greek* -*ika*, neuter plural of -ikos).
> So _Vatika_ "olive oil" is : "body of facts of field shrubs" which is unusual semantics.
> A Greek common-name (slang?) for the basic oil of life is not likely to be a modern loanword. Maybe _vatika _was copied phonetically as used in a prestigious way by Persian-Phoenicians, associated with royals / deities.


I found the page of the monthly local newspaper «Τα Βάτικα» that has a brief history of the region. Thus:
 "-The city was founded by the Mycenaeans in the 14-15th c. BCE under the name οf *«Βοιαί» Βœǽ*.
 -Ιn early 2nd c. BCE, the Roman general, Titus Flaminus, declared the coastal cities of Laconia free, and the _Community of Laconians_ is founded. In the years of Augustus it is called _Community of the Free Laconians_ («Κοινόν τῶν Ἐλευθερολακώνων») & becomes an area of  important economic activity. It is also an eminent port, and coins with the inscription *«Βοιατῶν» Βœatôn* (of Boeaeans) are issued.
-By the Middle Ages, *«Βοιαί» Βœǽ* has become an insignificant village, totally destroyed by the 375 CE earthquake –even part of the city had been submersed in the sea.
-Several settlements of no importance, appear by the name *«Βάτικα»* ['vatika] a derivation of «Βοιάτικα» [vi'atika] that are under the immediate threat of pirates."
So, the modern name «Βάτικα» is nothing more than the corrupted «Βοιάτικα» of the ancient «Βοιαί»


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## fdb

A very good answer from apmoy.


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## john welch

Sanskrit arose in BMAC Bactria and Hurrians in Mittani seem to have had Vedic contact. Persians were in Gangetic plain when Sanskrit was present (and entered Greece and Ionia). Greeks also were in Punjab where Skt was known.
Boios was an Heraklid warrior in Laconia but I'm told by a Voies travel agent that _vatika_ means olive oil. It also appears as a commercial brand of hair oil. Gr /atika/ /tika/ don't appear in dictionaries (classic or modern, inflected /uninflected).  I would like to know your comments _on boios-atika _as suffix and semantics of "olive oil".


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## xari

Is this word related to Russian пустой?


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## fdb

berndf said:


> Please remember that /v/ existed only in Persian. Neither Classical Greek nor Phoenician had this sound.



Nor in Old Persian. Transliterated <v> = /w/.


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## john welch

So it reduces to Sanskrit _vatika _as speculative source of possible Cl Gr and Mod Gr loanword _vatika, _from Indian contact.
This may follow the example of Latin _Vatican_ loanword Mod Gr _Vaticano. veteran (n.)  from PIE *wetus- "year" (cf. Sanskrit vatsa- "year," ) Mod Gr . veteran (n.) βετεράνος,_


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## berndf

john welch said:


> So it reduces to Sanskrit _vatika _as speculative source of possible *Cl Gr and Mod Gr *loanword _vatika, _from Indian contact.
> This may follow the example of Latin _Vatican_ loanword Mod Gr _Vaticano. veteran (n.)  from PIE *wetus- "year" (cf. Sanskrit vatsa- "year," ) Mod Gr . veteran (n.) βετεράνος,_


Not classical, only modern Greek. Greek _β_ for Latin _v_ is only plausible for medieval or modern loans, not for classical ones.


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