# Is There Life after Death?



## -Lady-

You don't have to believe in God to believe in Life after Death.  Half of me believes in a life after death, but the other half doesn't. There are thousands of accounts 'out there' of near death experiences which could sway one into believing there is life after death.  On the other hand, there are stories such as this one.  Recently an Australian businessman died.  He had had several years of ill health and some years ago had actually died following a heart attack.  He was clinically dead for 8 minutes.  After his recovery, he had this to say: "I have good news and bad news.  The good news is, there is no devil.  The bad news is there is no heaven either."  Food for thought.


----------



## DDT

-Lady- said:
			
		

> "I have good news and bad news.  The good news is, there is no devil.  The bad news is there is no heaven either."  Food for thought.



I personally do not believe in such obstreporous, magniloquent statements. I find them terribly "truth revealed" style. And I've already had several occasions to realise that nobody can even approach the idea of an absolute truth...
I consider that whether there is something after death or not, what we're in the habit of calling death is just a part of life. It depends on everyone's point of view, I guess

DDT


----------



## judkinsc

Ancient Greek Epicureanists use to say "If you were not unhappy before you were born, then why would you be unhappy after you die?" (Ignoring the translation part, of course.)


----------



## Ana Raquel

_Is There Life after Death?_ 

I'll try to think.

- Life and death are opposite words, so, either life or death...

- I we ignore that contradiction, ok, we have body and mind (or soul or spirit, the word you prefer to name the immaterial) Will the mind/soul remain?
What evidences do we have? The evidence is that the mind needs the body to be manifested. Then, if there is no body, no mind either.

- The only next life I can imagine is not very exciting: after the decomposition of the body, its elements will form part of other entities, of a plant, of a star, whatever. And the mind, deprived of its vehicle, ... going back to its origin, I suppose.


----------



## JazzByChas

Well, from my point of view, life and death are eternal principles. We are living a mortal life here on this earth, in this lifetime. When we leave this physical body, we, who are eternal souls, spend eternity either in a good place or a bad place, i.e. either eternal life, or eternal death. So "life" after death on the one hand means your spirt will exist for eternity, i.e. it doesn't "die" in the sense that is stops existing. "Death" is sort of like eternal suffering or being in prison for eternity. So depending upon what you got out of this mortal life, the eternal life you live, be it good or bad, after the end of your mortal life, depends on what you did in this [mortal] life.

That is my take on it, anyway.


----------



## Laia

My point is: mind (or soul) is created by our brain. So, no brain = no mind/soul.


----------



## JazzByChas

So my question would be:

How can a brain, which is physical matter (and created matter) create a soul or a mind? Sort of like:

"I am, therefore I think..."



			
				Laia said:
			
		

> My point is: mind (or soul) is created by our brain. So, no brain = no mind/soul.


----------



## Laia

JazzByChas said:
			
		

> So my question would be:
> 
> How can a brain, which is physical matter (and created matter) create a soul or a mind? Sort of like:
> 
> "I am, therefore I think..."


 
¿Cómo puede el cerebro crear la mente? Aha, de estudiar esto se encargan las neurociencias. 
“Pienso, luego existo” … dualismo cartesiano… (s. XVI), pero la neurociencia actual es monista y no dualista.
 
La mente es una función del cerebro, no existen “cuerpo y alma/mente” por separado, son una sola cosa (monismo en oposición al dualismo). La mente es el fenómeno producido por el funcionamiento del sistema nervioso (el sistema nervioso permite pensar, sentir, recordar, percibir, imaginar, tener emociones, moverse…).


----------



## opsidol

Un parte de mí quiere creer en una vida despues de la muerte, pero el resto de mí está convencido de que cuando nos morimos, solo nos morimos y nada más.
De todos modos, ya que nadie sabe que ocurre después de morirse, ¿por qué pensar en esto?

En mi opinión humilde es una pérdida de tiempo que no sirve para nada.


----------



## Laia

opsidol said:
			
		

> De todos modos, ya que nadie sabe que ocurre después de morirse, ¿por qué pensar en esto?


 
Este pragmatismo es el que más me gusta


----------



## blancalaw

Is there life after death? Being a Christian I believe so. I would rather be wrong about believing in life after death and find out there is nothing after we die, than to believe the opposite and find out I made a wrong decision in my lifetime.


----------



## cherine

opsidol said:
			
		

> De todos modos, ya que nadie sabe que ocurre después de morirse, ¿por qué pensar en esto?


Thinking about what will happen after death -in my humble personal opinion- is very important : If those who suffer hell on earth don't have any hope of a "better life" or a "compensation" in another life, they can get so despered that they may -and I say "may"- kill themselves or others, or just give up and live their unbearable life till the end, they will have no hope whatsoever of any compensation, which is very unfair. On the other hand, those who give hell to others, if there's no after life this means they'll never get any punishment of any sort for their ugly deeds, which is also unfair.
So, regardless of any religion, and speaking strictly from the point of view of fairness or justice, I think I prefer believing that there _is_ a life after death (whatever that life may be like).

And I also agree with Blancalaw's opinion «I would rather be wrong about believing in life after death and find out there is nothing after we die, than to believe the opposite and find out I made a wrong decision in my lifetime.» when it will be a bit too late to regret


----------



## ampurdan

Dear Blancalaw and Cherine, you seem to obviate multiple other possibilities: you say either something like paradise/hell reality or nothing at all... There are multiple other possibilities. For instance, when we die we are all happy for a while, and then unhappy for another while, then we reincarnate into a goat etc.

If you want to feel happy, why don't you think you are predestinated to go to Heaven, no matter what you do?

Anyway, Cherine, what you say seems to me like the "Opium for the people" description of religion.


----------



## ampurdan

I liked the definition of mind like a function of the brain. Memories are stored in the body, as far as you are not able to make a backup of it, this illusion of mind will not continue into another conscience.


----------



## cherine

Ok Ampudran, you may be right. Religion can sometimes (many times actually) be an "opium for the people", but I said I was speaking of mere logic, no religion. Just the idea of justice and fair. But that was my opinion, no more no less.

As for reincarnation, well.. don't you think it's another form of "life after death" ?  Notice I didn't say anything about hell and heaven, only "another life"


----------



## ampurdan

Well, Cherine, you didn't but you implied you believed in an afterlife based on the deeds of this one... And I just pointed that this was not the only alternative to no-afterlife. Maybe there's an afterlife equal for everybody or just as good and bad as this life is. Maybe you'll find that you are happy in this afterlife only if you have acted in this life as if there was no afterlife... We know nothing, so...

I think it would be better to behave to maximize our happiness in this World, regardless what might happen in an afterlife (for me, very unlikely to be).


----------



## Fuzzy1987

I think,if God created thirstiness and water,hungriness and food,compassion and mother love...He would also give an answer to our eternity desire..


In my opinion nothing is meaningless..

We should have the response to our irresistible desire to eternity..

This is what I feel..

For me God knows the exact answer

Each of us will find an answers for this big question in the future I think..

Wish to be glad with that answer..


----------



## Fuzzy1987

And my style in life is that both to be happy in this world and also thinking about the after-life..What if it exists??(for me it is probably..)I must draw my line according to these two options..I don't wanna lose anything
In Turkey we call it to be politic

Behaving carefully,aware of the two probabilities,their results is my principle maybe...


----------



## Laia

ampurdan said:
			
		

> I liked the definition of mind like a function of the brain.


Thank you.



			
				ampurdan said:
			
		

> Memories are stored in the body, as far as you are not able to make a backup of it, this illusion of mind will not continue into another conscience.


Yes... Do you know that every time that you learn something there is a real chemical and structural change in your brain?


----------



## ampurdan

Well, I'm not a neurologist but I had a foggy idea about it, something implying neurotransmitters and synapse... Anyway, I think this function has not a total dependence of synapses... I think things like "believes" and "knowledges" can interactuate and influence also the organic side...


----------



## Laia

Claro, las creencias y las emociones y todo esto no son solamente orgánicas, también son sociales. Por ejemplo, la memoria: ¿por qué recordamos cosas? Obviamente no lo hacemos porque sí, sino que es algo que tiene una utilidad en un momento dado, y reconstruimos el pasado en el presente acorde con las emociones y el contexto cultural e histórico concreto del momento. La mente no es algo "pasivo", es "activo".

¿Por qué creemos en una vida después de la muerte? No lo sé, ufff

Bueno, yo dejo el tema aquí porque me voy a liar, que tampoco sé tanto de neurotransmisores, sinapsis y plasticidad cerebral en general...


----------



## whatonearth

Although I was raised a Catholic I am, for all intents and purposes, agnostic. I am not sure God exists, and the concept of heaven doesn't really hold much water with me, but conversely I don't (or don't want to)believe there's _nothing _after death. I'm not going to pretend I have any idea what is after death, but I think there's something...

It's the greatest mystery and one we can never know the answer to...at least while we're alive obviously!


----------



## cuchuflete

whatonearth said:
			
		

> It's the greatest mystery and one we can never know the answer to...at least while we're alive obviously!



Well said.  I wonder if we might live happier and more useful lives if we adopted the hypothesis that our time is limited to the extent of our physical existence.  Then, if we are pleasantly surprised to find a continuation as a frog, an ethereal spirit, or
a daylily, that would be a welcome bonus.


----------



## Fernando

To me is a very strange thing the people who really thinks there is nothing after. If that is the case, why working or worrying about anything after my personal life? To the hell with the Global Warming, I am not going to be drawn in the sea. You, the babes, will.


----------



## ampurdan

Well, Fernando, if you live an afterlife, you're not going to be drawn either... Unless you reincarnate in one of those babes, to die and reincarnate in something else...

As strange as it may seem to you (and I suspect is not so strange to you), you may find reasons to behave properly in spite of the fact that sometime you are not going to exist any longer.

Anyway, I tend to trust more in the Rule of Law and the Welfare State, even as precarious as they are nowadays in the World, than in any afterlife to convince those who don't find any other reason...


----------



## Fernando

In Welfare State we trust.

If I live an afterlife of course I will be concerned. If I reencardinate either in a babe or (most probably, considering my behaviour) in a croackoach, I will not pollute very much.

Of course I find every day people who do worry about their environment and their mates, but from time to time I find its behaviour "ilogical": if you do not believe in no God, no afterlife, no cosmic order, no "natural" law, no man's nature, why to act good and not evil?

I understand the un-believers, but it is not so easy to me to understand the "that is all and nothing else".

On my part, believing in Welfare State is far harder than believing in God. I will fight for both Rule of Law and a reasaonable WS, but I will not put my life on it.


----------



## Laia

Fernando said:
			
		

> Of course I find every day people who do worry about their environment and their mates, but from time to time I find its behaviour "ilogical": if you do not believe in no God, no afterlife, no cosmic order, no "natural" law, no man's nature, why to act good and not evil?


 
C'mon Fernando! And what about the believers that behaviour in an evil way?  They exist too.

You usually act "good" just to feel OK with yourself and with the others. You, believer or not, have guilt feelings and other emotions. You behave the way you do because of looooots of causes or motivations, not because you want to go to Heaven. People act thinking in consequences in short-term time and not in long-term time.


----------



## Fernando

Yes, but I thought it was bad to think only in short-term consequences.

The believers who behave evilly (is that English) are really bad guys. To our relief they(we) will go to Hell.


----------



## Laia

Fernando said:
			
		

> Yes, but I thought it was bad to think only in short-term consequences.


 
Yes, it's bad. But it's true. This explains lots of behaviours as, for example: why students study only when exams are coming, why some people take drugs, why some others don't use safety belts, why don't use condoms and other preventive behaviours, etc




			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> The believers who behave evilly (is that English) are really bad guys. To our relief they(we) will go to Hell.


hehe


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

To borrow someone else's words, "I've seen death too often to believe in death".  

I have been visited by people who have died (or rather, by two people and one dog).  The boundaries are much thinner than I used to think.

The really funny thing about this?  Out of all the people I've loved who left this world, the only two people who came back for a visit were the only atheists in the bunch!


----------



## cuchuflete

Fernando said:
			
		

> ... there is nothing after. If that is the case, why working or worrying about anything after my personal life? To the hell with the Global Warming, I am not going to be drawn in the sea. You, the babes, will.



Can we not be good because our actions will have consequences for others who are alive, and those yet to be born?  This sort of responsibility may be strengthened by a belief in an afterlife, but does not require it.  

I don't want my sons to suffer the consequences of global warming, or other polution.  I don't know if there is an afterlife.


----------



## Fernando

I would understand a love for now who live now, specially your children or your friends, but For those yet to be born? Many people do not worry about the foetuses because they think they are not yet "real persons". Are they to be worried for someone, faceless, who is going to be born in one century?

Please, understand I am being provocative. I understand and appreciate those people who performs well despite they do not believe in afterlife. I only think they are "irrational".


----------



## srsh

Fernando said:
			
		

> I would understand a love for now who live now, specially your children or your friends, but For those yet to be born? Many people do not worry about the foetuses because they think they are not yet "real persons". Are they to be worried for someone, faceless, who is going to be born in one century?


 
Well im not even married yet, so my children are yet to be born and anyway I do think about them when I try to do things in a right way...


----------



## cuchuflete

> Please, understand I am being provocative.


 And you perform that role with good humor and admirable skill... but I'm perplexed (provocatively speaking) that those who believe in an afterlife find difficulty in imagining "good" behaviour by those who do not share that belief, or are uncertain about it.

It's almost as if they were saying, "I derive my motivation for decent behavior from my religion. Therefore, those who do not share my religion cannot behave decently." We both know this to be an obvious falsehood. I suppose we could argue about this well beyond our limited years on this orb. And perhaps we shall.

If not, he who dies first, loses the argument.


----------



## opsidol

Todos pueden sentir compasión para los demás. Esto no depende ni de religion ni de raza ni de nada. Cuando alguien que tiene una corazon buena vea a una persona que está sufriendo, quere ayudarla y no importa si sea musulmán, cristiano o ateo.


----------



## DDT

Fernando said:
			
		

> I understand and appreciate those people who performs well despite they do not believe in afterlife. I only think they are "irrational".



Let me politely disagree. Personal ethics, or the values guiding everyone's deeds if you want, are fully independent from the belief in something after death. Half of the most generous and "well performing" (juste to quote your own words) people I have the privilege if knowing are atheistic. They do "perform well" without being irrational  

DDT


----------



## I.C.

Actually, I think people who accept things on faith might be considered as being a little bit irrational.


----------



## ampurdan

I'm sorry, I was late to the last atheist ghost visit at home. I guess they are very few and that the rest of mortals are all happily in heaven, since I've never had the honour of meeting one...

Fernando, I agree with you that if you act according to some God's will because you believe in it and you believe that if you don't, you're going to go to Hell etc., you are thus behaving according to formal rationality... But you'll have to have some good reasons to make you believe that this God exists, that he really wants you to behave the way you think he does and that he will keep his word, to make your behaviour materially rational.

As long as we can't know anything about afterlife and that we know that this lifetime is limitated, what's rational is to try to be happy during the meanwhile. Some happiness, though, is many times achieved through social recognition and love... And reversely, few people enjoy being hated or like the idea of having a bad fame after their death. Here you are some materially rational motives to "do good unto others" (with independence of their ethicity).


----------



## Fernando

Your answers surprise me a lot. I can not quite understand you. You say you know of atheists who are nice guys but you have not explained me why they should behave in a good way.

Of course, I understand atheists can be nice guys. All in all, God helps everyone, regardless his religion and Human Nature is the same for everyone (good, also, as a general rule). You can not avoid to be good guys even when your personal beliefs would imply other things. Cuchu,  

I deeply disagree with DDT. Your personal beliefs condition your behaviour. If you believe the supremacism of your race is the main aim of your life, I would say it is a bit difficult to be a nice guy.

To srhs: I am not even thinking in having childen (women, you know). Should I think on your (future) children rather than in my current, real, welfare?

"to try to be happy during the meanwhile": I can not deny that. To look for pleasure (in its broader sense, I am not -just-thinking of sex) is a basis for morality.


----------



## opsidol

> You say you know of atheists who are nice guys but you have not explained me why they should behave in a good way.



Because it makes them feel good about themselves.


----------



## ampurdan

Fernando said:
			
		

> "to try to be happy during the meanwhile": I can not deny that. To look for pleasure (in its broader sense, I am not -just-thinking of sex) is a basis for morality.


 
I haven't said that and I don't think so. Looking for pleasure is just a goal some of us may share and we can coalligate to achieve it better, that is, more rationally. Morality is another thing: to behave towards others as you would expect others to behave towards you (others including future ones), or, to say it à la Kant: "act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law". 

Afterlife religions tend to mix both things up, reducing morality to a tit for tat question.


----------



## Ana Raquel

Fernando said:
			
		

> To me is a very strange thing the people who really thinks there is nothing after. If that is the case, why working or worrying about anything after my personal life?.


 
those people don't act for fear of punishment or hope of reward. In that sense I'd say they are not selfish.


----------



## Benjy

ahhh la la.

to say that taking away god the arbiter of justice and an afterlife means that morals go out the window is slightly disturbing  and it makes man out to be utterly and irredeemably selfish, and in my opinion no way worthy of any salvation that god might offer to him.

fortunately that's not the case. maybe in an absolute sense no afterlife would make our lives pointless, the universe winding down and entropy having its merry way with everything and all that, but i don't think that would constitute a valid excuse for causing other people suffering through our subsequent unethical amoral conduct.


----------



## ampurdan

Well, I wouldn't go that far... Is not so bad to be selfish after all, we expect the others to behave somehow selfishly. Selfishness is not intrinsically immoral.


----------



## Laia

I insist in thinking that acting good or bad has no relation with people's wish to go to Heaven...

At the moment you do something to feel good with yourself or to avoid possible guilty feelings... aren't you selfish?
A volunteer does what he/she does to help the others or to feel fine with him/herself?
Aha! Is he/she altruistic or selfish?


----------



## Fernando

If you have read Savater, as an example, he bases all his morality in selfishness. Obviously enough, he is an atheist.

Laia, why should you feel better when you protect the environment? To work for "next generations" is crazy if there is no afterlife. F*ck them! Why should even exist "next generations"? If the others want to have children is his choice and maybe they will feel better that way. Children are the opium of the people.


----------



## Laia

Ok, you don't want to understand that point  _Me rindo_.
 
Fernando, anyway, so you do what you do because you wish to go to Heaven. Oh man, you are really selfish! You are just thinking in your own benefit!


----------



## ampurdan

If you had to trace back in History some afterlifists' (for instance, Catholic Christians) condemns on selfishness, you'll find out a "double moral" on the issue: peasants being selfish is bad, nations being selfish are patriotic unless they attempt the Church's interests, then they are evilly inspired; when the employee is selfish is condemnable but when the employer is selfish he is a good manager etc. Fortunately, we all are as well hypocrites and we understand the meaning of all this...


----------



## Fernando

Answering to Laia:

Well supposing I was a good person (not the case):

Definitely not, I am behaving properly because I think my self-awareness will stay for ever, so any of my acts is going to affect reality, now and in the future. Eventually, it could affect me in a bad way (example: God sends me to Hell or being a croakroach the pollution kills me) and I will see my mates suffering because of my deeds. I feel an SPIRITUAL (not "real") brotherhood with all mankind. When a man suffer I suffer for him.

Moreover, I think there is a human nature (printed by God and "a su imagen y semejanza"). When I perform good things I eventually can feel better or not but I am acting according my nature. One of the things my nature demands to me is to help the others and do not think or act in any way that touches my dignity.

To know which my nature is, I have several rules. As an example, I can read what Jesus did (but also Gandhi, or Martin Luther King or Albert Einstein).

I understand your selfish-altruist paradox. As a matter of fact, is the basis of my advocate-of-the-devil argument: They are either selfish or stupid altruists.


----------



## Zakalwe

From my point view, i don't see why people who go to church or practice a religion should be better guys than the atheist, as i am.
I don't believe in afterlife, and it does not stop me to preserve the environment because i respect the world where i live, and i find no reasons for damaging it. 
We have had the opportunity to live a short period of time in this world, and for me the better way to do it is to try to respect the people and the place where we live. As for the future, i want to let the world like or better than it was when i came into this world. Just a question of respect for the people who is going to live here after me. 
But i understand people who didn't care about it because their life is not so good and they didn't see why they should bother about the next generation.

Laia, i agree with you about brains and neurones that contains our memories and mind. How does it work? Well i'm not a specialist. But by looking at the evolution, things has been done gradually and at first single-celled life doesn't have any of this. 

Also i am always stupefied that people who believes in afterlife only speaks about humans going to hell/heaven. But why humans when they are millions of others species. And we should not forget that humans have been on Earth a very short period, and i do not think that hell/heavens have been created especially for our specie. Otherwise we are going to meet dinosaurs and single-celled life there. But that's a Darwin's point of view i suppose.


----------



## Laia

Fernando said:
			
		

> I am behaving properly because I think my self-awareness will stay for ever, so any of my acts is going to affect reality, now and in the future.


Self-awareness. That was my point too. Ahí discrepamos sólo en el "for ever", por lo que estoy entendiendo (lo siento, cuando empiezo a tener hambre me cuesta pensar... y mira la hora que es!).


			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> I understand your selfish-altruist paradox. As a matter of fact, is the basis of my advocate-of-the-devil argument: They are either selfish or stupid altruists.


I was being provocative too.


----------



## Benjy

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Well, I wouldn't go that far... Is not so bad to be selfish after all, we expect the others to behave somehow selfishly. Selfishness is not intrinsically immoral.



i would. i genuinely feel that people who have no compunction or desire to help other people unless it will be rewarded are not worthy of a reward.

i mean this within a moral/religious framework. because if you are only nice to people to get to heaven then you have missed the point. in any religion or philosophical set up this life is always for self improvement. or proving the qualities we already posses. at least from what i have read and understood. doing stuff uniquely for the hope of a reward is no improvement whatsoever because it implies that if the carot or the stick was taken away you are still the same person.


----------



## Ana Raquel

Hi

could I ask a question to people who think there is life after death?

It is if you have a proof, something, any kind of thing/reason that constitutes a proof for you. If yes, please, tell us, and if not, then, what motivates you to think there will be another life?

thank you!


----------



## ampurdan

Fernando said:
			
		

> They are either selfish or stupid altruists.


 If you say so you'll have to admit also that afterlifists are being selfish (it wouldn't be a problem to me, though).

"I want to help people because they will help me back" - Is it selfish? Yes. Is it stupid? No. Does everyone have to do the same? No and it's not praiseworthy.

"I want to help people because I feel good when I do that" - Is it selfish? Yes, if we have to be consistent. Is this stupid? No. Does eveyone have to do the same? No, but is praiseworthy.

"I want to help people because (when I die) God will love me/ I will be always aware of what happens in the world and it make me feel bad" - Is it selfish? Yes, if we have to be consistent. Is it stupid? Ehem, well, we just don't know the probability that those things happen because of one’s helping people. Does everyone have to do the same? No. Is it praiseworthy? Well, I would expect some more imagination for the first one but that may be because I’m the one who has contributed it.

"I want to preserve the environtment out of respect for other people and people who may come to live here". Is it selfish? No. Is it stupid? No, he knows what he is doing and knows for sure the consequences of his acts. Does everyone have to do the same? Yes, had you been born later, you would have wanted people before you had preserved the environment. Is it praiseworthy? No, it's just what one is supposed to do.

"I want to help people because it's within human nature to do so"... Sorry, “human nature” is so vaporous a term. If you mean it makes you have more dignity or something like that, I guess it will go along with “because I feel good”. If you are saying that your nature is compelling you to help people (that may be your nature, but is not “human nature”), in which case it is also similar to say “because I feel good”.
 
Benjy, selfishness is not reprehensible per se, only when one is not supposed to behave selfishly.


----------



## JazzByChas

Well, since you asked:

I believe in the after life becasue I believe in God. I belive God communicates with us via his written word to us. His word says, basically, that this life is only temporal. Our spirits are eternal, and they will spend eternity in an after life, either with God or without Him. (I said this in a previous post). There are many places in His written word that point this out, which would take too much room in this post.

If you have any more questions, PM me.



			
				Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> could I ask a question to people who think there is life after death?
> 
> It is if you have a proof, something, any kind of thing/reason that constitutes a proof for you. If yes, please, tell us, and if not, then, what motivates you to think there will be another life?
> 
> thank you!


----------



## tigger_uhuhu

Well... I belive in God then it's supposed I should belive in live after death, but the real think is I don't know what will happen then.
Meanwhile I'm afraid to to give my [¿órganos?] just in case I'll need it there


----------



## R&J

I don't believe in an afterlife. I agree with Laia on the point that if there's no brain, then there's no mind, feelings or anyting "spiritual".

To me, the most rational thing is to enjoy the present life, the only life we can enjoy for sure and that we can, in some way, control.
Why do we worry about a possible future afterlife that we can't manage? 
What if what you did on your mortal life doesn't have an influence on your future afterlife? 

I think it is better to learn from our experiences, to live accordingly to our principles and to feel as satisfied as possible of our "mortal" life at the moment of our dead.
Afterwards, who knows, I think it's worthless to worry about that.


----------



## tvdxer

Yes, I believe there is life after death.  Humans are more than mere atoms and molecular reactions...our corporal bodies may decompose, but our soul lives on, either going to heaven (directly, or more likely, via purgatory) or hell.


----------



## DDT

Fernando said:
			
		

> Your personal beliefs condition your behaviour.


Mmmh...the history of mankind teaches that similar absolutist approaches to beliefs happen to be the foundation of dispute (and even more, I'm afraid)   



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> If you believe the supremacism of your race is the main aim of your life, I would say it is a bit difficult to be a nice guy.


That's not a belief, that's part of what I mentioned above as "ethics"  

As other forer@s pointed out it would be terribly sad if people behaved nicely only because of their belief in the afterlife. As I said in the first post I wrote in this thread I consider death like a necessary part of life. I am convinced that as long as I breathe my main objective is to think of what I am going through this very moment, followed by the following one etc etc - "hic et nunc" (here and now) like the Romans used to say - and I try to act all my deeds in order to be consistent to my scale of values. My personal beliefs play a minor role in the fact that I respect everyone and try not to hurt anyone. I like helping people (when I can), because that's my nature and I feel a natural tendence to do that. Whether there's a life or not after death won't change the fact that I am living "here and now": so how could I "perform well" (like you said) if all of my thought and energies were projected in something which will come next? This doesn't mean I don't care for the future. But since I cannot forecast what's happening in one minute I try to focus my energies in what I am directly living

DDT


----------



## Zakalwe

Althought i'm atheist, i would like the afterlife to be real as i'm totally terrified by what the death means if it is not. How can we just stop to live in a second and all the experiences we have accumulated disappear ? 
How all this free and independent people thinking by themselves and interconnecting with each other can all aim to disappear ?
But it is the cycle of life. We are just a pawn in the game like other billions of people and living creatures. We are just here to perpetuate life on earth and to witness a short period of time in the history.
My fear of death would like me to refuge myself in a religion and believe in something else after death, but my scientist part just refuse it.
So i have found this solution: enjoy life as it is and live it fully. I want to be able to say when i will be at the end of my days, that i'm proud of what i have done and that i have done all what i wanted to do.


----------



## la reine victoria

What an interesting debate, the subject of which has been puzzled over since man first walked the earth I imagine.

We have a wealth of information, from ancient civilisations such as the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Chinese, et al, that these people believed in the survival of the soul, spirit (call it what you will) after death.

For those who believe that the Bible is the 'true word of God', then the coming of Jesus Christ, who promised 'the gift of eternal life to all who believe in him' may be considered the benchmark for modern day thinking, albeit that this revelation was 'supposedly' made 2000 years ago.

So we have pre-Christian people believing (without any foretold fact) that the soul survives death, and Christian believers who are 'sure and certain' of the resurrection of the body.

In my own belief, although I cannot logically prove it, the soul does survive death. This is based on personal experience.

It is generally considered that hearing is the last of the senses we lose at the point of death. I was once rushed into hospital, haemorrhaging profusely. The last words I said to the doctor caring for me were, 'Doctor, I'm going deaf.' Then I passed out. The next thing I knew I was hovering above a team of doctors and nurses, watching with interest their efforts to resuscitate me. I felt no fear nor awareness of the wish to be resuscitated. I went down no dark tunnels with bright lights at the end. I met no other 'spiritual beings'. Yet I had died.

The experience was quite brief. I awoke on the table on which I had been placed, wired to a heart monitor and with tubes inserted in both hands and ankles (I had seen this being done during my 'hovering above' state). The head of the medical team said, 'Ah! You've decided to come back to us. We lost you for a while you know.' I said, very clearly, 'Yes, I know. Thank you for all your hard work, I have a husband and small son who need me.'

Most neurologists put experiences such as mine down to the dying of the brain. But, interestingly, UK researchers in this field have been allowed to place small shelves, high up, in operating theatres. Numbers, letters and symbols have been placed on these shelves, and many resuscitated patients have accurately described what they saw while they were 'dead'. Often they have said, 'What's the point of having those silly shelves, with numbers/letters/symbols on them, in an operating theatre?

Conclusion? No positive proof, but a leaning towards 'Yes, our physical body is merely the earthly dwelling place of that which makes us what we are - the soul or spirit.' When the dwelling place (body) collapses, then the soul leaves it and moves on in search of a new home. Whether that be in a newly conceived human being, or on some extra terrestrial plane, I honestly don't know. I tend to have leanings towards a higher spiritual plane where our 'infant' spirits (despite our opinions on how 'clever and advanced' we are) may develop and grow to greater maturity. Then, possibly, a move onto a higher plane for even further advancement. How shall we pass our time in eternity? In my opinion there will be no concept of time as we know it here on earth.

Are ghosts earth-bound spirits? I have been privileged to have had several encounters with ghosts; indeed my old cottage has a resident cat ghost which appears from time to time. It is benign and feels 'at home', but sometimes my own cat resents its presence.

I've had visitations from departed loved ones (did they come to show me they were still 'alive'?), a telepathic communication from a much loved friend, who died thousands of miles away in Bali, letting me know that he was no longer here on earth, and I've seen ghosts of complete strangers, one in particular (a WW11 soldier) in broad daylight in a relatively quiet town street. Also a large, black, border collie dog which shared the home of some friends. It was seen by everyone who ever stayed there.

On the eve of his death, my father (62), whose mother died when he was a boy of 14, said to me 'Would you mind passing me my mother's little glass vase.' It was the only reminder of her that he had and he treasured it enormously. He held it and kissed it saying 'I'll be with you soon, Mum.' Within a few hours he died. I like to think he was reunited with his mother after all those years apart. He pops in to see me, fleetingly, from time to time, as does my late mother.

I have a very wise old gentleman friend, 93 years, who has been fascinated with this topic all his adult life. We have spent hours discussing it. He has no formal religious beliefs but acknowledges a 'greater power' who created all things. He has often said that he envies my spirituality and feels that I have been blessed with great insight into the metaphysical. He says, having studied the Bible in search of truth and dismissing it largely as 'the stuff of fairy tales' 'I believe you have been given one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, whatever that may be, the discernment of spirits.' (Book of Corinthians). 'Oh how I wish I could see a ghost!' I was, on one occasion, able to give him irrefutable evidence of the survival of his dearest long dead friend (too long to discuss here). He broke down in tears and said 'I'm the only person who knew that. It was a personal secret between the two of us. And now you know it too.'

Hey ho! What a long and serious rambling from the normally humorous and light Reine V. But this is a matter worthy of gravity. My two sons, when small, used to ask me 'How do you know we live on as spirits when we die?' My answer was 'Well if we do we will know all about it; if we don't we won't know a thing.'

Q E D: I really don't know, but my experiences tend to favour that there is life after death.

Or are we so self-important that we think we are immortal? 


LRV


----------



## Amityville

In past centuries, the idea of burning in hell, and the red glow cast by it may have dissuaded some morally-lacking souls away from wrongdoing. Or was it more the thought of being found out, disapproved of, becoming an outcast because of the general drift of religion-influenced public opinion. There are people who would risk being punished in an after-life but would be more circumspect about their social acceptability.. "Carrot and stick" doesn't quite encompass the general ethos that accompanies a religion if it is widely accepted, whether or not believed in.
None of us knows what happens after, we speculate and we find it hard to accept that all of a sudden we can be blotted out - we're important, aren't we ? And we want to see again our loved ones who have died and left a void in our lives. It seems to go against all spiritual values that it just ends, "That's it, folks". After physical decomposition, the atoms that composed the person are still there but they don't hold together, they dissolve, float off into the ether, - "And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, Leave not a rack behind." For myself, I would like to believe that something continues, but I can't know, so I have to preserve my memories, preserve and pass on the qualities of the people I have lost, if I can. If you can't repay kindnesses given you, you should pass them on to someone else, in a way you're preserving the life of the person that did you the kindness - the seeds of goodness there should be given their true value - we KNOW what is good and all this stuff about it boiling down to self-interest is, at its best, wordplay, at its worst, arrogant cerebrality, which makes no distinction between good and bad. It is pernicious because morally relative - maybe it would be better if the community disapproval of the old days weighed in the scales and was noted in the profit-and-loss ledgers.


----------



## borhane

all the beliefs , religions and mythes can not give us any concrete response to what wait for us after the death !!! personally, I don't agree with the Idea which says that Death is the great leveller !!! Omnia mors aequat.....anyway , is the soul deathless? and what's the doomsday? 
don't be zealot!


----------



## borhane

some of us believe in soul's riencarnation in an other body ; christians for example believe it in newborn child , indians in animals.........others believe that the soul trail round eternally........ muslims believe it to be judged in the grave , the doomsday of every single humen being start with death......... while others believe that there is no life after death!!! keep me alive today and kill me tomorow.....


----------



## ampurdan

Borhane, none of the major Christian Churches believe in reincarnation... I guess some Christians may believe in it, though...

Anyway, I haven't understood in what kind of reincarnation do you believe.


----------



## borhane

Personally , I believe that souls go up to the firmament by night , and return to the earth by day to register men's doings , in the evening they go up to the heaven again , and God ask them about what they saw in the earth ...if they tell maid things, God send his bless , but if the inverse!!! God invest cyclones , tornados , volcanos and seisms........like that until the doomsday , the souls live between heaven and earth


----------



## nanel

If you don't mind, I'm going to write my answer in Spanish because that way it would be easier for me, if any of you don't understand it, just tell me and I'll do my best translating it:

Yo no creo que exista una vida después de la muerte, creo que antes de nacer no hay nada, igual que no hay nada después de morir.

No creo en el alma sino como un producto de nuestro cerebro, que también crea (y guarda) los recuerdos, las experiencias, aprende, etc, etc. Lo que digo no es que seamos sólo producto de la genética, sino una combinación de nuestros genes y la experiencia social, familiar, etc. que vamos acumulando a lo largo de la vida a través de nuestros sentidos, y de ahí sacamos también nuestros valores entre otras muchas cosas. Lo que me hace pensar esto, además de mi forma racional de ver siempre las cosas, es que cuando se ha dañado un cerebro se ha podido cambiar la personalidad de las personas, evitar que esa persona vuelva a tener nuevos recuerdos (sí, el caso de memento existe en la realidad), la influencia que tienen en nosotros las hormonas y ciertas sustancias, etc... el hecho de que todos aprendamos de una forma parecida (condicionamiento Pavloviano) y otras muchas cosas.

¿Por qué creemos en la vida tras la muerte? Creo que la razón es muy sencilla, porque como cualquier ser vivo tememos la muerte, y como además nosotros somos racionales siempre es mejor pensar que hay algo después que el que vayamos a desparecer sin más, así que, y ya digo que siempre desde mi punto de vista, desde siempre los seres humanos hemos creados dioses que nos protejan, que nos ayuden y expliquen todo lo que no conocemos y que nos den una vida después de la muerte.

Espero que nadie se sienta ofendido por lo que estoy expresando, siempre he tenido una mente racional y científica y no creo en estas cosas, aunque respeto las creencias de cada cual. Y además resulta que precisamente estoy estudiando este tema (la biopsicología) ahora mismo para examinarme por lo que me ha parecido lo lógico aportar mi granito de arena.


----------



## borhane

This subject needs a deep thinking *dear Nanel* , so can you traslate it to English please ?


----------



## ampurdan

Well, I found Nanel's message quite interesting and I tried to translate it. Nanel, if you don't like this translation just tell me and I'll erase it (unless more than 7 days elapse, 'cause then I won't be able to do it).

Here it goes:



> I don’t think there is a life after death; I think that before being born there’s nothing, so there’s also nothing after death.
> 
> I don’t believe in the soul but as a product of our brain, which also creates (and keeps) the memories, the experiences, it learns, etc., etc. I don’t mean that we are only the result of genetics, but a combination of our genes and the social, familiar etc. experiences, which we gather during our lifetime through our senses. We get our values out of all this, among several other things. What makes me think this, besides of the rational way in which I always view things, is the fact that when damage has been made in a brain, as a result, the personality of the injured has changed, he may have been unable to store new memories (as in the film “Memento”, which tells a true story). I also think in the influence that hormones and certain substances have on us, and in the fact that we all learn in a similar way (Pavlovian conditioning) and several other things.
> 
> Why do we believe in life after death? I think that the reason is very simple: because, as any other living creature, we are afraid of death and, in addition, we are rational, it is better to think that there is something else and that we are not going to disappear without further ado. Therefore, always IMO, since the beginning, human beings have created gods who protect us, help us and explain us all what we know and who give us a life after death.
> 
> I hope nobody takes offense at what I’m stating; I’ve always had a rational scientific mind and I don’t believe in such things, albeit I respect the believes of everyone. Besides, I am precisely studying this subject (biopsychology) right now; therefore, I thought it logical to contribute with my bit.


----------



## borhane

thank you Nanel for your frankness and justification ,  and many thanks to Ampurdan for his faithfulness and explanation


----------



## la reine victoria

borhane said:
			
		

> Personally , I believe that souls go up to the firmament by night , and return to the earth by day to register men's doings , in the evening they go up to heaven again , and God ask*s* them about what they saw in *(on)* the earth ...if they tell maid *(good?)* things, God send*s* his *blessing,* but if the inverse *(reverse, opposite*)!!! God invest *(sends)*cyclones , tornados , volcanos and seisms *(earthquakes?)*........like that*,* until doomsday. *T*he souls live between heaven and earth


 
An intersting thought Borhane. But don't you think that God can see for himself what his created beings are doing on the Earth, what evil they do and what good?

Do you seriously believe that God caused the recent tsunami to drown so many people, the good as well as the bad? Do you think he caused the flooding in New Orleans? The Earth is a living planet which, like us, is subject to ills from time to time. We don't know why God made the Earth this way. If we are believers we simply have to accept it. In disasters it is up to the survivors to do all they can to show their care and compassion, such as feeding the starving people of Africa, giving them medical help, drilling wells so that they might have a supply of fresh water to hand. We are all here to help each other. I believe that God's final judgment of us (if this is to be - we have only the Bible's word for it) will be based on the good or evil things we have done. I can't imagine someone like Adolph Hitler going to the 'biblical heaven'. 

Note my use of the Bible context. We can't prove that it is or is not true. Only devout believers have sufficient faith to accept the Bible as 'the true word of God'. For moslems the Quran is accepted as the true word of God, as revealed to the prophet Mohammed. Yet many God-believing people become extremists and disobey the teachings of the Bible or Quran. In the belief that they are pleasing their God by ridding the world of 'infidels', they have committed and continue to commit atrocious acts against their fellow men. How do you think their God will judge them? As faithful believers or extremely disobedient to his teachings? 

'The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with the bones.' (Shakespeare, Julius Caesar).

'But, O Sarah! If the dead can come back to this earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you. In the gladdest days and in the darkest nights . . .always, always, and if there be a soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath, as the cool air fans your throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by. Sarah, do not mourn me dead, think I am gone and wait for thee, for we shall meet again.

Major Sullivan Ballou (to his wife) a week before his death in the Civil War in 1861.

LRV


----------



## Don Borinqueno

This might be a little late to add in but i was watching a show the other day and they were talking about that the ''idea" of heaven is more important than the actual thing because it helps us make better decisiones in life.


----------



## ampurdan

Well, Don Boriquero, I think that's the same we were discussing when talking about afterlife as a carrot or a blow... I think we should find a reason to behave properly that wouldn't depend in a thing in that we cannot prove.


----------



## Don Borinqueno

I completley agree with you. There are a number of ways people canfeel good about what they are doing in life without the expectation of being awarded a place in heaven.


----------



## Fernando

To this moment, only ampurdan has had the courage to suggest one: the Rule of Law and Welfare State.

Please, forgive me if I stay with afterlife.


----------



## la reine victoria

Fernando said:
			
		

> To this moment, only ampurdan has had the courage to suggest one: the Rule of Law and Welfare State.
> 
> Please, forgive me if I stay with afterlife.


 
Why apologise for what you believe in Fernando?  That's why we are all here, to express our beliefs and opinions.

So long as we respect the opinions of others and don't try to force our beliefs on them, there is no problem and no need to apologise.  Every contribution is welcome.  Some of them may get us thinking along different lines, some may reinforce our personal beliefs, some may be provocative.

That's the great blessing of being a forum member.  It's good to share.

LRV


----------



## ampurdan

I think Fernando was being sarcastic when asking for forgiveness, your Majesty.


----------



## Fernando

I would prefer "ironic". Sorry, since I have provoked a genuine sign of affection by "la reine". It was not my intention.


----------



## la reine victoria

Fernando said:
			
		

> I would prefer "ironic". Sorry, since I have provoked a genuine sign of affection by "la reine". It was not my intention.


 
Sorry to have misunderstood you Fernando.  I can be very silly at times. 

LRV


----------



## borhane

I am impressed by Your Majesty's way of seing the things!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ampurdan

Fernando, Welfare State and Rule of Law are the public safeties to prevent people from damaging eachother, but they are not the reasons why I behave properly, when and in the extent I behave properly. The real reason is the due respect, and many people have said the same in this thread. Even though there is no God to punish or reward me in the afterlife, it is still a good thing to preserve the Earth for the people to come. What's great about morality is that it does not depend on punishments or rewards.

However, if you happen to be saying that an "afterlife" fulfils a public role, because it prevents people from infringing the laws and that as such, it should be officially adopted by the State, no matter how little and mystifying evidences we have about it (as any other "daring" theories held by the Administration on duty), I would say that it really doesn't, because it is so easy to deny, that has no real virtue in the people who want to infringe the law and, moreover, they can even think that their God really wants them to infringe the law... And I'm not exactly talking about an hypothetical scenario... In public affairs, Welfare State and the Rule of Law are better things to fight for, even if they only did for a security against criminals... 

One thing is public safety, another thing is morality and a third thing is finding a motivation to live your life.

But you know all this, I'm only repeating platitudes.


----------



## la reine victoria

borhane said:
			
		

> I am impressed by Your Majesty's way of seing the things!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
Thank you for the compliment Borhane. I believe we share some points of view.

I am a firm believer in what is known as 'astral travel'. I have had several experiences, while sleeping, of travelling at great speed to countries I have never visited. The most outstanding one was a visit to China. I can see it clearly even now, although it happened several years ago. So it wasn't like a dream, whose memory soon fades.

Having said that, I have had dreams which remain vividly in my memory. These are generally connected with people I have loved and whom I knew to be 'dead'. I don't wish to get personal here but some of these 'dreams' have been so beautiful that I've woken up in tears, wanting to be back with the particular person I've been 'dreaming' of.



LRV


----------



## lampiao

ampurdan said:
			
		

> none of the major Christian Churches believe in reincarnation...


That is correct.

You may believe in life after death, or disbelieve it; You can believe in reincarnation (a sort of life after death) or Heaven or some other way.

As a christian, I take the whole package and believe in life after death, although there is no way I can proove there actually is. That's why we need faith for that 

One thing is for sure: We will all get to know if it's true or not sooner or later


----------



## ampurdan

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> 'But, O Sarah! If the dead can come back to this earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you. In the gladdest days and in the darkest nights . . .always, always, and if there be a soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath, as the cool air fans your throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by. Sarah, do not mourn me dead, think I am gone and wait for thee, for we shall meet again.
> 
> Major Sullivan Ballou (to his wife) a week before his death in the Civil War in 1861.
> 
> LRV


 
Wow! I have to remember this one! 

I don't believe in a real life after death, but I think that it's great when what we do in this life is so strong that leaves a good trace (a good karma?) in the people who survives us, so they can remember us and, this way, maybe something of us survives for the new generations to come...

Your Majesty, I would pronounce your name the same way your Italian friend, and I would say you pronounce it as Lora... It's just a matter of perspectives...


----------



## lampiao

> Your Majesty, I would pronounce your name the same way your Italian friend


same here


----------



## Sirène

> find out there is nothing after we die


If there is nothing then there will be no you to find out anything! 
I don't believe there is anything, which makes life so wonderful and precious to me. 
Someone said the soul/spirit is a function of the brain, I don't fully agree, I think it is a function of the being as a whole, in fact I think it is coessential to it. 
For me, hearing is just that thing that ears do, seeing that thing that eyes do etc. I can't conceive a form of life where we would have no senses since we'd have no organs to sense the world with. Maybe I just lack imagination.


----------



## ampurdan

I think that, in fact, the brain is the one who hears and who sees, not the ears or the eyes... So I still believe it is a function of the brain (which, obviously, needs the rest of the body to survive).

What do you exactly mean when you say "the being as whole"?


----------



## Sirène

ampurdan said:
			
		

> I think that, in fact, the brain is the one who hears and who sees, not the ears or the eyes... So I still believe it is a function of the brain (which, obviously, needs the rest of the body to survive).
> 
> What do you exactly mean when you say "the being as whole"?


I mean that even bacteria, that have no brain, still have what I would call a soul. Anything that is alive, reproduces itself, fights for its survival (in its own way) and exchanges information with its surroundings has what I would call a form of conscience ; for me, conscience and soul are synonymous. I hasten to say it has nothing to do with the kind of conscience we talk about in ethics, which is imo 100% cultural.


----------



## ampurdan

Well, I would say that bacteria cannot represent themselves an independent being... Though, of course they will have some kind of perception which enables them to interactuate with the world... and the same goes with other creatures, such as vegetables and invertebrates...
Would you say that your pancreas and that even your red blood cells have consciousness?
I don't know in which extent does a dog perceive his self... So I guess he has consciousness. 
This kind of consciousness is also cultural in human beings... The way we perceive ourselves is mediated by the society in which we live... And I agree that conscience is a cultural creation of the mind... But I think there is a universal law in the ethical conscience which is cross-cultural: the importance of respecting the others (after all, we are social beings).


----------



## nichec

Well, I'm not of any religion background, and I would like to think that there isn't life after death.

I think of death as a holiday after our life long struggle to lead a good life in this world. It's quite a romantic thought of mine but I like to think of being dead as having a long relaxing sleep. It's like going to bed after a long exhausting day...So for me, it can come anytime and I'll always be ready. And I don't really want to think that there's yet another life after that. After all, it's enough that we try to live every single moment to its best and fullest, isn't it?


----------



## Sirène

> But I think there is a universal law in the ethical conscience which is cross-cultural: the importance of respecting the others


Yes, but the notion of other and respect themselves vary immensely. Or they used to vary, as the West tends to force its values down every other cultural throat.
Would you say that your pancreas and that even your red blood cells have consciousness?
I don't think my pancreas has a soul that is separate from my own, but I do think, yes, that some of my soul definitely comes from my pancreas.


----------



## diegodbs

I dont't believe in science; I use scientific knowledge to try and understand the world around me.

I don't believe in literature; I read.

I don't believe in chemistry; I know that carbon and oxygen may combine to form a different chemical compound.

I don't believe in love; I love or hate.

I don't believe in life or death; I live and die.

Should there be any reason why a living organism had to live forever under a different form, soul, spirit or shape. Who do we think we are? Why do we have to be eternal? I can't know if I lived as a bacteria 3 billion years ago and I don't care at all (that bacteria was not me). I can't know if I'll live as a toad or as a Chinese pedlar five hundred years from now and I don't care at all (that toad or pedlar won't be me). If, by any kind of miracle, all my atoms were to form part of a different body in the future, I won't be there. 

The Roman poet Catullus knew it and wrote:

"Soles occidere et redire possunt
nobis cum semel brevis lux occisa est
nox est perpetua et una dormienda." 

"The sun may rise and set
but when our light is extinguished
we will have to sleep our night forever."

Life after death, for whom? There will be others who will live, there were others who lived. That's how things are, whether we like it or not.


----------



## Laia

Sirène said:
			
		

> Someone said the soul/spirit is a function of the brain, I don't fully agree, I think it is a function of the being as a whole, in fact I think it is coessential to it.
> For me, hearing is just that thing that ears do, seeing that thing that eyes do etc. I can't conceive a form of life where we would have no senses since we'd have no organs to sense the world with. Maybe I just lack imagination.


 
Like ampurdan said: eyes and ears don't see and don't hear, they just take the information of the envoirnment and send it via-SN to the brain.
ALL senses are controlled by the brain.


----------



## Edwin

Laia said:
			
		

> Like ampurdan said: eyes and ears don't see and don't hear, they just take the information of the envoirnment and send it via-SN to the brain.



Oh ye of little faith:   Jesus said, 

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." --Matthew 13:16


----------



## Edwin

nanel said:
			
		

> Y además resulta que precisamente estoy estudiando este tema (la biopsicología) ahora mismo para examinarme por lo que me ha parecido lo lógico aportar mi granito de arena.



Entonces deberías disfutar el libro nuevo de Daniel Dennett sobre este tema:

*Breaking the Spell : Religion as a Natural Phenomenon*



> Dennett explores religion as a cultural phenomenon governed by the processes of evolution and natural selection. Religion survives because it has some kind of beneficial role in human life, yet Dennett argues that it has also played a maleficent role


.

I think the book will be published within a week, but already you can find numerous reviews and discussions of it on the web by people who have had advanced copies.


----------



## borhane

Bravo Your Magesty , your in the third body , of the seven bodies of the "*ILLUMINATION*" ....In the body you are in , your soul can travel ( when sleeping ) to reach any place in the world....but uncle Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh warn you that it's too difficult to reach the fifth body .
Names of Bodies hysical Body ; Etherical ; *Astral* ; Mental ; Spiritual ; cosmic ; nirvanic
I hope you one day to reach the "*ILLUMINATION*" , by my side I'll try to reach *her* also .


----------



## la reine victoria

Laia said:
			
		

> Like ampurdan said: eyes and ears don't see and don't hear, they just take the information of the envoirnment and send it via-SN to the brain.
> ALL senses are controlled by the brain.


 
Without eyes or ears we would be blind and deaf. They are essential organs via which information is passed to the brain for iimmediate interpretation.

Without eyes we would miss those sights which uplift our souls - a newly born baby snuggled in its mother's arms, a rainbow, new flowers in the springtime, a peaceful field with grazing sheep, a foamy white wave crashing onto the shore. Don't things like these give you a feeling of joy and wonder? They are reminders from God. to make us pause for a moment, and be drawn nearer to him.

No ears - no ability to listen to beautiful music, hear the laughter of children at play, hear the person you love say, 'I love you', these being perhaps the most beautiful words ever spoken, since God is Love. 

Some sights and sounds are repulsive to us. We close our eyes or block our ears because the sights and sounds make our souls feel downcast and sad.

Can you not perceive the soul as a spiritual part of us which resides in our physical body? We have no idea what a soul looks like but I believe it to be a spiritual duplicate of our physical selves, so that when we meet up with other souls after death we will recognise each other.

It has been said that 'the eyes are the windows of the soul.' Take time to look at as many eyes as you can. You will see people with joyful souls, angry and bitter souls, souls without hope, souls saying 'help me, please, to get out of the mess I'm in.' Sometimes God will intervene and give these souls help for the future. At other times he leaves it up to us to do the helping. I have personally helped some of these 'sad souls' (total strangers) simply by gently getting them to talk about the things which are troublng them and telling them I will pray for them. And I've seen results. I believe God has arranged for me to meet these 'strangers' again. They have immediately recognised me and told me how their lives have changed for the better. Some have even said. 'I never used to believe in God, but now I do.'

So don't be shy. If you see a distressed soul in a person, take a few minutes to talk with him/her. You will be doing God's work in alleviating that person's suffering. You will let that person know that you care for his/her suffering and that you want to help them.

From the Bible:

'I will lift up mine eyes to the hills; from whence cometh my help?
My help cometh even from the Lord who hath made Heaven and Earth.'
(Psalm 121).

'He that hath ears to hear, let him hear' (Matthew 13, verse 9).

Here endeth the second lesson.

LRV


----------



## la reine victoria

borhane said:
			
		

> Bravo Your Magesty , your in the third body , of the seven bodies of the "*ILLUMINATION*" ....In the body you are in , your soul can travel ( when sleeping ) to reach any place in the world....but uncle Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh warn you that it's too difficult to reach the fifth body .
> Names of Bodies hysical Body ; Etherical ; *Astral* ; Mental ; Spiritual ; cosmic ; nirvanic
> I hope you one day to reach the "*ILLUMINATION*" , by my side I'll try to reach *her* also .


 
Thank you Borhane. I think all believers in the survival of the soul are travelling towards that final destination, the Illumination (or divine Light). The Bible tells us that 'God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.'

I once asked my four year old son how he would manage to paint a picture of God for me. Without hesitation he said 'Easy peasy, a great big golden light.' My husband and I had never mentioned this image of God to him, we'd simply told him about God who cares for us all, and that we should try to behave as children of God (Heavenly Father). So where did his revealing insight come from? Only from his soul which was pure and uncluttered by all the awful things we are made aware of as we grow older.

On a humorous note. This same child (when he was three years old) asked me to take him into our local church. I reminded him that he was going into 'God's house' and that he would have to be very good and quiet. The church was empty at the time. Daniel looked at everything with great interest, not saying a word. Eventually we approached the altar, with its rail in front, where people kneel to receive the bread and wine of the Holy Communion. Daniel tried to duck underneath the rail but I held his arm and said, 'No you mustn't do that.' He stood looking at all that lay beyond the rail, wondering why he wasn't allowed to go there. Then he suddenly found his answer and said, 'Oh, you're right Mummy, God's just vacuumed his carpet.'

On another occasion my husband took him to St. Paul's Cathedral. This time he said (fairly loudly), 'Where's God, Daddy? There was an old gentleman helper putting hymn books on the seats in readiness for the next service. Daniel said, 'Is that him, Daddy?' Having paid a lot of attention to a portrait of Christ, he concluded, 'I think God's gone out to do his shopping, Daddy, but isn't it nice that he's left his picture on the wall for me to see.'

Now a grown man of 32, he still has his faith and belief in God but doesn't practise any formal religion.

Just thought I'd share.

LRV


----------



## Fernando

diegodbs said:
			
		

> Life after death, for whom? There will be others who will live, there were others who lived. That's how things are, whether we like it or not.



Diego, you have expressed perfectly. As a matter of fact, all that forms of reencarnations are forms of deaths. If I die and I return as a toad, that toad will not be me, unless eventually I recover my self-conscience. 

Anyway, I invite you to take all consequences of your thoughts. Why should you strive or work? Why should you worry about anything after your foreseeable death? Like DDT, you like to live with no reason at all. You reject afterlife (let alone religion) as anti-rational, but your philosophy is "i-rrational". Something as "I do not know what is death and I do not mind. Do not pollute the oceans because of the future generations".

Unlike La reine victoire, I have not had any mystical experience. 99% of my life is governed (1) by what I like to name "reason", but I can not act without "first premises" and all first premises I find takes to absurd or suicide. Only the hope for afterlife is a "good" first clause to me, only that clause is not against my nature and wht it comes from my guts.

By the way, Catullus can be set as a poet model, but hardly as a life model.

(1) I would like to be governed


----------



## DDT

Fernando said:
			
		

> Like DDT, you like to live with no reason at all



I am sincerely afraid you didn't understand what I wrote. And let me politely disagree, Diego's approach and mine are sort of different but we both (I guess so, sorry Diego if I  put some words in your mouth) stated that we have reasons for living. I am perplexed about your approach which seems to be an I-am-the-Truth-holder one. I do respect your beliefs - BTW, please notice I avoided to express mine on purpose - but please pay attention to the way this approach can be translated in everyday life. As I implied in my previous post history teaches that "Truth holders" happened to start wars of religion  

DDT


----------



## nanel

I just wanted to thank *Ampurdam* for the awesome translation, I couldn't have done it better!


----------



## Fernando

DDT said:
			
		

> I am sincerely afraid you didn't understand what I wrote. And let me politely disagree, Diego's approach and mine are sort of different but we both (I guess so, sorry Diego if I  put some words in your mouth) stated that we have reasons for living. I am perplexed about your approach which seems to be an I-am-the-Truth-holder one. I do respect your beliefs - BTW, please notice I avoided to express mine on purpose - but please pay attention to the way this approach can be translated in everyday life. As I implied in my previous post history teaches that "Truth holders" happened to start wars of religion



Maybe I was wrong. Could you please explain further which are your reasons? I simly did not understand them. I interpretated you saw no connection between your beliefs (or disbeliefs) and your personal morality.

When you talk about truth-holders provoking wars, I assume you are including Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc. , none of them believed in an afterlife.

By the way, I am the truth-holder. We are discussing who holds the truth, aren't we?


----------



## DDT

Fernando said:
			
		

> Maybe I was wrong. Could you please explain further which are your reasons? I simly did not understand them. I interpretated you saw no connection between your beliefs (or disbeliefs) and your personal morality.



What I mean is just that ethics cannot be that influenced only by religious beliefs (or disbeliefs), I chose not to express mine in order not to let my point of view be misunderstood.



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> When you talk about truth-holders provoking wars, I assume you are including Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc. , none of them believed in an afterlife.


I was referring to some fundamentalists who started wars of religion, not to the worst warmongers ever. The truth I was talking about is the spiritual one   



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> By the way, I am the truth-holder. We are discussing who holds the truth, aren't we?



You say that. I didn't say you're a truth holder, I just invited you to notice how a certain approach might look like   
Please also notice I never said my position is the true one, I don't know what truth is, I even have doubts about the fact of truly existing (the "cogito ergo sum" doesn't work anymore after some thinker inferred that we might be thought    ....that's why I chose "nescio ergo sum" as a part of my signature   )

DDT


----------



## Fernando

DDT said:
			
		

> What I mean is just that ethics cannot be that influenced *only *by religious beliefs (or disbeliefs),



Agreed. Note the bold.



			
				DDT said:
			
		

> I didn't say you're a truth holder, I just invited you to notice how a certain approach might look like



I invite you to notice your approach looked like you were saying I am a bigot.



			
				DDT said:
			
		

> Please also notice I never said my position is the true one,



Everything someone opens his mouth and says "I think", I assume he is expressing what he thinks is true. That is not to imply he can not change her mind.



			
				DDT said:
			
		

> I don't know what truth is, I even have doubts about the fact of truly existing


Best regards from this projection of your personality.


----------



## Edwin

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Without eyes or ears we would be blind and deaf. They are essential organs via which information is passed to the brain for iimmediate interpretation.



It seems that humans are able to experience quite a lot without vision or hearing. I just finished reading the recent book *Helen Keller : A Life* by Dorothy Herrmann.  Helen Keller, by the way, was a very spiritual person. She believed in life after death. She was a follower of Swedenborg

Her command of English (also apparently French and several other languages) was quite amazing. You can read or download one of her most famous books: *The Story of My Life *at Project Guttenberg  and see what a great command of the language she had. 

The book by Dorothy Herrman explains how Helen was able to learn to write (and eventually to speak) idiomatic English in spite of being without vision or hearing from age 19 months.


----------



## la reine victoria

Edwin said:
			
		

> It seems that humans are able to experience quite a lot without vision or hearing. I just finished reading the recent book *Helen Keller : A Life* by Dorothy Herrmann. Helen Keller, by the way, was a very spiritual person. She believed in life after death. She was a follower of Swedenborg
> 
> Her command of English (also apparently French and several other languages) was quite amazing. You can read or download one of her most famous books: *The Story of My Life *at Project Guttenberg and see what a great command of the language she had.
> 
> The book by Dorothy Herrman explains how Helen was able to learn to write (and eventually to speak) idiomatic English in spite of being without vision or hearing from age 19 months.


 
Hi Edwin,

It's very interesting that you should mention Helen Keller. When I was at school (all girls) about half a century ago, we were divided up into School Houses. I was Head of Helen Keller House and we devoted our time and energy into helping 'The Sunshine Home for Blind Babies' in the UK. The amazing Helen Keller was involved with this Home and she got to learn of our work with it.

Imagine our delight when she honoured my school with a personal visit. She was accompanied by a guide, as she never regained her sight. But her ability to speak (which she started to learn in 1890) was quite incredible. Her talk to us was clear and eloquent. We realised that we were in the presence of someone 'very very special'. Surely an example of those people sent by God as an example to others.

Before I put one of my posts in the forum, (I think it was in response to one of Laia's but will have to check) I ran it past an old friend from my past, a clergyman who baptised me when I was 40 years old. He reminded me of a couple of books by Swedenborg which I once bought for him. He said, 'You might like to mention Helen Keller in your post. As a follower of Swedenborg she pointed out the difference between 'exisiting' and 'living'. Those without God in their lives simply exist, but those who receive God (the giver of life) are truly living.'

I was searching in google for this particular quotation when I happened on the one by Major Sullivan Ballou to his wife Sarah, a week before his death in the Civil War in 1861.

To get to the point you make, Edwin, Helen Keller was an outstanding example of the deaf/blind whose souls have been touched by God. She was spiritually open to all the beauty around her which she couldn't see. Guided by her companion, Ann Sullivan, her life took on a whole new meaning and she went on to achieve things which many a blind/deaf person would not be able to imagine.

So, yes. here is a blind/deaf person, aware in her soul of the existence of God, who had an amazing perception of the world. Imagine if God hadn't touched her soul. I expect the world would never have heard of Helen Keller. She would have been trapped in a state of existence, not in a state of living (having God, the giver of life, within her soul).

A proof positive of the existence of the soul as a separate entity from the physical.

LRV


----------



## DDT

Fernando said:
			
		

> I invite you to notice your approach looked like you were saying I am a bigot.


You might be confusing my posts with someone else's, I never meant nor thought that, please read again what I wrote   



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> Everything someone opens his mouth and says "I think", I assume he is expressing what he thinks is true. That is not to imply he can not change her mind.


You see I'm not that wrong when I say your approach looks a little hard? When I say "I think", I simply mean that I am expressing my subjective thoughts. That's why I added the hyperbole about my awareness of having no certitudes (_I don't know what truth is, I even have doubts about the fact of truly existing_)   



			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> Best regards from this projection of your personality.



Cheers   


Going back to the topic of this thread, my personal thought is that whether we have religious beliefs or not, none among us can be certain of what is after death

DDT


----------



## jjisneo

The concept that there being life after death is one that gives hope to any one who has just lost a love one. That is why it is easy to see why early man came up with such a belief. However, one cannot deny that this idea has never been proved nor disproved and so there is no logical reason why there should not be a life after death.


----------



## borhane

I'm wondring........................................? Christianity , Judaism and Islam tell all about the same things ...................!!! does this prove that there is some thing after death ???? but.............!!!! it seems so strange the stories of the holy books !!! about.......!!! and I don't know why... and if this is true !! which is the right religion ????????????


----------



## diegodbs

borhane said:
			
		

> I'm wondring........................................? Christianity , Judaism and Islam tell all about about the same things ...................!!! does this prove that there is some thing after death ???? but.............!!!! it seems so strange the stories of the holly books !!! about.......!!! and I don't know why... and if this is true !! which is the right religion ????????????


 
Mmmmm..., none!


----------



## Laia

diegodbs said:
			
		

> Mmmmm..., none!


 
None! Claro que sí, I agree 100%.
Bravo! 

Cuando leo estos threads sobre religión, dioses y otros cuentos (para mí esto son cuentos, y mi opinión es igual de válida que la de cualquier otro forero), querría que mucha gente escuchase la canción "Fiesta Pagana" de Mago de Oz.


----------



## la reine victoria

borhane said:
			
		

> I'm wondring........................................? Christianity , Judaism and Islam tell all about the same things ...................!!! does this prove that there is some thing after death ???? but.............!!!! it seems so strange the stories of the holy books !!! about.......!!! and I don't know why... and if this is true !! which is the right religion ????????????


 
Hi Borhane.

I agree with other forer@s that there is no 'right religion'. It is interesting to note that those followers of religions which don't acknowledge 'God', as the major religions do, still believe in an afterlife.

Any religion is 'right' for those who practise and believe in it.

The most primitive prehistoric people were aware of an afterlife; we know this from the careful way in which they buried their dead in preparation for the next life.

An innate awareness or wishful thinking? Who knows?

LRV


----------



## diegodbs

From the poem Invictus, by William Ernest Henley (1849-1903)

*Beyond this place of wrath and tears*
*Looms but the Horror of the shade,*
*And yet the menace of the years*
*Finds and shall find me unafraid.*

*It matters not how strait the gate,*
*How charged with punishments the scroll*
*I am the master of my fate:*
*I am the captain of my soul.*


----------



## charq

diegodbs said:
			
		

> From the poem Invictus, by William Ernest Henley.
> *I am the master of my fate:*
> *I am the captain of my soul.*


If only more people thought the same way.


----------



## borhane

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Hi Borhane.
> 
> I agree with other forer@s that there is no 'right religion'.
> Any religion is 'right' for those who practise and believe in it.
> 
> 
> 
> An innate awareness or wishful thinking? Who knows?
> 
> LRV


dear Victoria 
your answer is not logical !!!!
if there is a life after death , that means there is a God
this God has send a messenger
this messenger has come with a religion
this religion is like a passport
and in the doomsday you'll be asked about it !!!!! 
if you have it you'll be orientated to the heaven !!!!! 
if not , you'll be thrown in hell!!!!


----------



## cherine

And why don't you say that ANY person who's well behaved in this life, whatever their religion may be, has this "passeport" to Heaven ?
In the doomseday you won't be asked what was your religion, but whether you've been a good person, a true believer in God (i.e. you did actually believe in God and well behaved according to His commandments, which are common between -I think- all religions)


----------



## borhane

diegodbs said:
			
		

> From the poem Invictus, by William Ernest Henley (1849-1903)
> 
> *Beyond this place of wrath and tears*
> *Looms but the Horror of the shade,*
> *And yet the menace of the years*
> *Finds and shall find me unafraid.*
> 
> *It matters not how strait the gate,*
> *How charged with punishments the scroll*
> *I am the master of my fate:*
> *I am the captain of my soul.*


Dear brother, Iam seeking fpr some poetry by William Ernest Henley , so can you provide me with a web site in which I can download it to my computer ???


----------



## feuerbach

Is there life after death? No. There's just death after life. However, I must say it's a good question. I always wonder who will be right and who will be wrong. Unfortunately one has to die to get a definite and univocal answer. The rest is just speculation and a matter of opinion. Just be patient. Sooner or later you'll get a personalized answer. La parca acecha.


----------



## feuerbach

borhane said:
			
		

> that means : yes there is life after death and people have to believe in that....this is from the *Koran* (the Muslims holy book )



May I edit your post? 

"Yes, there is life after death and people have (can choose to believe or not) in that."

Unfortunately I can't back up my statement with a quote from a religious book (the downside of not having God on your side).


----------



## Ana Raquel

There is a religious book quote that backs up your statement, feuerbach

"There is no compulsion in religion"  from the very same Koran, second chapter, verse number 256

perhaps it is ignored sometimes?




			
				feuerbach said:
			
		

> May I edit your post?
> 
> "Yes, there is life after death and people have (can choose to believe or not) in that."
> 
> Unfortunately I can't back up my statement with a quote from a religious book (the downside of not having God on your side).


----------



## borhane

The fact that your little son ( I hope my god will protedt him from dangers ) know about God by instinct isn't it a proof that God exist , dear Victoria !!!!


----------



## la reine victoria

borhane said:
			
		

> dear Victoria
> your answer is not logical !!!!
> if there is a life after death , that means there is a God
> this God has send a messenger
> this messenger has come with a religion
> this religion is like a passport
> and in the doomsday you'll be asked about it !!!!!
> if you have it you'll be orientated to the heaven !!!!!
> if not , you'll be thrown in hell!!!!


 
Sorry to disagree Borhane.

From my own beliefs (and I'm sure we all respect each other's opinions), yes, there is an all powereful creator, whom I choose to call 'God.'

If the Bible is the true word of God (you need to have *total faith* to accept this, considering that it has been written, translated, rewritten, edited, altered in meaning to suit a particular editor) then we are told of many messengers who were sent by God. Perhaps one of the most relevant messengers (in the Christian faith) was the Angel Gabriel, whom God sent to tell Mary that she had been chosen to be the earthly mother of Jesus Christ, God's son*. The Anunciation.*

*Religion *is a man-made thing. Jesus Christ simply asked his followers to 'spread the Gospel to the four corners of the world'. He also said that 'The Lord our God is the the only Lord,' and 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.' He didn't tell people to build churches, cathedrals, print hymn books, appoint clergymen who had to wear 'fancy dress'. This was done by men of their own free will. Christ's early followers, terrified of being persecuted, used to meet in the fields in secret; their symbolism of Christ was a fish (we are told 'Jesus said, "Come follow me, I will make you fishers of men."). He wanted to draw men to become believers in God.  He severely criticised his fellow Jews for being hypocrites.

*Religion* is not *a passport to heaven*. People who may appear to be 'religious' very often don't practise the teachings of God, through Christ, in their daily lives. They dutifully go to church, often simply wishing to be seen as 'good people' but, believe me, I've met many who are quite the opposite.

To sum up, the 'God' central to my life has no time for religion and it is not something I practise. I have a one-to-one relationship with God, I speak with him and he speaks to me in return. He touches *my soul and I respond.*

So, sorry Borhane, what you say is illogical. I believe what I have said to be logical. *God already knows my heart and how I behave towards others*. 

Come *'Doomsday'* (if there will be such a day), I don't think God will say to me 'since you haven't dutifully been to one of those man-made edifices you call church, I'm going to throw you into eternall hell and damnation.

Enough of my ramblings.

I respect, but don't agree with, your opinion Borhane.

LRV


----------



## Edwin

cherine said:
			
		

> And why don't you say that ANY person who's well behaved in this life, whatever their religion may be, has this "passeport" to Heaven ?
> In the doomseday you won't be asked what was your religion, but whether you've been a good person, a true believer in God (i.e. *you did actually believe in God and well behaved according to His commandments, which are common between -I think- all religions*)



Doesn't it seem strange to you that God,  the all powerful creator of this vast universe,  would be offended if an insignificant human being (one of some 6 billion such specks on a small planet near one of the trillions of stars in the Milky Way, an obscure galaxy -- one galaxy out of some 100 billion galaxies in the universe) misbehaves and/or doesn't "believe" in Him/Her? Why would God care about such  insignificant creatures and go to the trouble of separating them into two group: one of which gets to go to "heaven", the other of which is cast into "hell".  It is somewhat analogous to a human being worrying about the morals of ants.


----------



## Fernando

We are very worried about the morals of ants. When they enter into our kitchen, we kill them.

Luckily, God is not so a bad judge.


----------



## Edwin

Fernando said:
			
		

> We are very worried about the morals of ants. When they enter into our kitchen, we kill them.



How do you tell a good ant from a bad ant? 



> Luckily, God is not so a bad judge.



Perhaps, but his reasoning is often very obscure. 

Assuming that God is responsible for the death of every human, it is often not so clear to me what his criterion for death is. On the other hand, some of his "representatives" (Pat Robertson, for example---and others I will not mention out of fear) seem to think that they understand God's motives quite clearly. 

But this drifts away from life after death to reasons for death.


----------



## cuchuflete

These creepy little asides about ants raise an interesting question:

Do those who believe in an afterlife ever wonder if that afterlife has mosquitoes, ants, the smell of pig excrement?
What does God do with all living creatures who are not humanoid?  Are they too not entitled to an afterlife?
Why? or Why not?  

What happens to physical senses in "the afterlife", given that the body probably doesn't go along for the ride?  Can spirits see?  If so, why should we assume that they can or cannot smell?  

I'm genuinely curious about people's definitions of the afterlife.  What's it supposed to be like?


----------



## JazzByChas

Cuchu said:
			
		

> I'm genuinely curious about people's definitions of the afterlife. What's it supposed to be like?


Here, Cuchu, I would have to rely on what I've read in the Bible...seeing as how I have never seen what goes on in the afterlife, and, as Mark Twain once said, "Rumors of my demise are greatly exaggerated."  

I do know that we aren't human in the sense of flesh and blood...we have "glorified bodies" that resemble our human ones, but they have no need of the human external processing functions like smell and taste, because there is no need of food, and therefore smelling or tasting it. 

There are to be none of the humain shortfallings going on there...no crying, tears, strife, or pain. I have heard we will have our own (very nice) dwelling places. The Bible also references "a new Heaven and a New Earth." Must confess, I am not exactly sure what that means, other than, the order of things will not be physical in nature, but spiritual. (There will be no need of a sun...God will be the only "light" necessary) 



> Do those who believe in an afterlife ever wonder if that afterlife has mosquitoes, ants, the smell of pig excrement?


Have not seen any reference to animals being there...so I don't think they (or their associated byproducts) will be there either. Nor insects...(and therefore no more bug spray... )

If you want references, or further research, PM me and I will be glad to do more!


----------



## Fernando

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> These creepy little asides about ants raise an interesting question:
> 
> Do those who believe in an afterlife ever wonder if that afterlife has mosquitoes, ants, the smell of pig excrement?





			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> What does God do with all living creatures who are not humanoid?  Are they too not entitled to an afterlife?



They are not.



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Why? or Why not?



Because I think we (humans) are 'special: minds, self-awareness, ability for behaving good or evil.



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> What happens to physical senses in "the afterlife", given that the body probably doesn't go along for the ride?  Can spirits see?  If so, why should we assume that they can or cannot smell?



According to traditional Catholic theology we eventually resucite with our flesh and mind. So, we will have sensations. Personally, I do not mind.



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I'm genuinely curious about people's definitions of the afterlife.  What's it supposed to be like?



Well, I do not have a "vision" of my afterlife, but it has some relation with the direct contact with God.


----------



## borhane

Edwin said:
			
		

> Doesn't it seem strange to you that God, the all powerful creator of this vast universe, would be offended if an insignificant human being (one of some 6 billion such specks on a small planet near one of the trillions of stars in the Milky Way, an obscure galaxy -- one galaxy out of some 100 billion galaxies in the universe) misbehaves and/or doesn't "believe" in Him/Her? Why would God care about such insignificant creatures and go to the trouble of separating them into two group: one of which gets to go to "heaven", the other of which is cast into "hell". It is somewhat analogous to a human being worrying about the morals of ants.


In Islam, God has 99 names ..........one of them is " al-malik" (the King) .............the King cannot be called king unless he has a kingdom , all the places you ......are his kingdom !!!!!!


----------



## la reine victoria

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> These creepy little asides about ants raise an interesting question:
> 
> Do those who believe in an afterlife ever wonder if that afterlife has mosquitoes, ants, the smell of pig excrement?
> What does God do with all living creatures who are not humanoid? Are they too not entitled to an afterlife?
> Why? or Why not?
> 
> What happens to physical senses in "the afterlife", given that the body probably doesn't go along for the ride? Can spirits see? If so, why should we assume that they can or cannot smell?
> 
> I'm genuinely curious about people's definitions of the afterlife. What's it supposed to be like?


 
A very interesting, yet puzzling, question, Cuchuflete. 

May I give one or two examples of my own experiences?

In my younger years, whilst walking in a paricularly pleasant street near my London home, I chanced upon a Christian Spiritualist Church. Having already had my interest in Spiritualism awakened by a visit to the Institue for Psychical Reasearch, in London, and living in an apartment which was
home to a very active poltergeist (activities witnessed by all members of my family at the same time), I decided to attend that church's Sunday meetings to see what I might discover.

My first visit was quite a revelation. The visiting medium told me that my childhood pet rabbit, 'Snowy' was 'well and happy in the spirit world. I had always grieved the loss of Snowy. My parents gave him to me on the strict understanding that I would be in sole charge of feeding and watering him, excercising him and keeping his hutch clean. Like all children, who are so easily distracted, I sometimes neglected to clean his hutch. One day my father (in order to show that he meant what he said) told me that since I hadn't stuck to the rules he was going to give Snowy away to someone who would properly care for him. I was heartbroken, especially when I heard that the new owner had killed and cooked him. . However, a valuable lesson had been learned. If you promise to do something then you must stick by that promise.

How this medium was able to describe my pure white rabbit, and give me his name, was a mystery to me. After all, I hadn't thought of him for many years.

In an earlier post you will see my mention of having a cat ghost in my present home, plus a reference to the ghost of a dog (seen by many people) which 'lived' with some friends.

Between the births of my two sons I had the misfortune to lose a baby. I knew nothing of its gender and told nobody at the Church of my loss. Neither had I divulged the fact that I was pregnant. When I had recovered I went back to the Curch. Another medium (we had a different one each week) came to me (from the platform) and said, 'You've 
recently lost a baby. The spirit world is showing me a beautfiful blue-eyed, blonde, baby girl (who looks just like you). She is being held in the arms of a spirit carer and other spirits are looking at her saying 'Isn't she beautiful, isn't she adorable.' I held my emotions in check and said 'Possibly.' The medium said 'There's no "possibly" about it. You named her Helen didn't you?' Helen Elizabeth were the names my husband and I had chosen had our expected baby been a girl. She was due to be born on 4th July (Uncle Sam's day), but she arrived far too early. Every 4th July I spend time thinking of this darling lost one, whom I never knew, but with whom I hope to be reunited when my soul departs this world.

With regard to 'creepy crawlies', I don't know which of them God allows into the spirit world. Perhaps they have a spirit world of their own, especially wasps, ants, spiders, scorpions, venemous snakes and 'horny gollochs' (a new word for you Cuchuflete!).

How do I perceive the afterlife? I see it as a place where we will initially be re-united with those we have loved and lost. I can cite an example. My sister-in-law's baby brother, aged 10, seriously ill and comatose for many weeks, suddenly woke up and, with outstreched arms shouted, 'I'm coming to you Auntie.' With those words he died. I like to think that his favourite aunt, in the spirit world, had come to 'take him home'.

I believe the afterlife will be a continuation of our earthly life where we will become spiritually advanced. Time, as we know it, will be irrelevant, as it is to the God who gave us life. I trust, but don't know, that there will be answers to all the questions we have often asked. I like to think that I may be able to meet up with my heros/heroines from the world of music, litertaure and art. How I would enjoy talking to the likes of Shakespeare, Dickens, the Bronte sisters, Mozart, Brahms, Beethoven (I imagine he is no longer deaf), Toulouse Lautrec and Maurice Utrillo. However, these 'old' spirits may well have moved on to a higher spiritual plane for further advancement. I may have to wait to catch up with them during my own spiritual advancement.

A friend of mine has suggested that there will be no need of speech in the spirit world, that we will be able to communicate telepathically. I disagree with this, as what could be lovlier than hearing the old familiar voices of our loved ones?

I would like to think that the afterlife will be populated with the spirits of my favourite birds, the blackbird, the robin, the song thrush, the wren, to name but a few. And lots of cats and dogs too.  Not foregetting rabbits, squirrels, badgers, foxes, frogs, newts, toads, lizards, butterflies, et al, et al.  All the creatures which delight me here on earth.

Who knows? A question which has perplexed man since time immemorial. But I know where my faith lies.

If there is no afterlife then, when we die, we will be oblivious.

LRV


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

The mother of some evangelical mega-church minister in the southern U.S. had a fascinating view of heaven, as shown in an interview last fall.  Her musings went something like this:  "Jesus knows I love antiques, so my house will be full of antiques.  And Jesus loves me so much that he knows I love the sound of water, so he'll have a fountain in the house for me!"  She made Jesus sound like an interior designer.

I see all living things, animals and plants, fungi and bacteria, as sparks of the Light.  Mosquitos and blackflies do not have to be directly useful to humans to be part of the divine plan.   Why do we insist on believing that the universe and God revolve around human beings, instead of seeing ourselves as part, _and only part_, of God's creation?  Arrogant little ants indeed are we.

I cannot conceive of a heaven restricted to one self-satisfied little species out of all the living things God has created.  Luckily, I don't think our creator's focus is as narrow as that of the humans in his creation.


----------



## maxwels

I strongly believe there's life after death because I know God- the creator personally  rather than knowing 'about' Him and indulging in such crap debates over his presence or after life.When you can experience the fellowship of God and see some miracles materialize or your prayers answered in your life then I don't think doubt's concerning after-life would arise because God provides answer for our every silly questions if we seek him out diligently and be obedient to His every call. So my answer is simple-- first accept God as your saviour then experience His fellowship(not being religious),feed on his word in the Scriptures-- you are certain to feel that change in you.


----------



## la reine victoria

maxwels said:
			
		

> I strongly believe there's life after death because I know God- the creator personally rather than knowing 'about' Him and indulging in such crap debates over his presence or after life.When you can experience the fellowship of God and see some miracles materialize or your prayers answered in your life then I don't think doubt's concerning after-life would arise because God provides answer for our every silly questions if we seek him out diligently and be obedient to His every call. So my answer is simple-- first accept God as your saviour then experience His fellowship(not being religious),feed on his word in the Scriptures-- you are certain to feel that change in you.


 
Welcome to Word Reference Forums, Maxwels.  

Thank you so much for your honest opinion which I appreciated and understood.

However, since the forum is a free place where we can all express our opinions, which we respect, regardless of whether or not we agree with them, your words 'indulging in such crap debates' were, I think, ill-chosen.

La Reine Victoria.


----------



## ampurdan

Maxwells, thank you for your qualified contribution to this crap debate.


----------



## DDT

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Welcome to Word Reference Forums, Maxwels.
> 
> Thank you so much for your honest opinion which I appreciated and understood.
> 
> However, since the forum is a free place where we can all express our opinions, which we respect, regardless of whether or not we agree with them, your words 'indulging in such crap debates' were, I think, ill-chosen.
> 
> La Reine Victoria.



I fully agree, everyone is free to express his own opinion provided that he respect visions different from his

DDT


----------



## cuchuflete

maxwels said:
			
		

> I know God- the creator personally rather than knowing 'about' Him and indulging in such crap debates over his presence or after life.



How interesting that you should choose to participate in a debate which you characterize in this manner.  Please come to know the forum rules as intimately as you claim to know your Creator.   They may be found above and to your left in 
FAQ.

Thank you,
Cuchuflete
Moderator


----------



## GenJen54

> So my answer is simple-- first accept God as your saviour then experience His fellowship(not being religious),feed on his word in the Scriptures-- you are certain to feel that change in you.



Not quite sure I follow this line of thinking, maxwels.  By accepting God as your savior and experiencing His fellowship, are you not by default, also accepting the religion he/He represents?

For the record, as LRV has already hinted at, members of these forums represent a wide array of religions and non-religions.  Equal respect and understanding is appreciated for and by all - even those who believe this debate to be crap.  To some, whose beliefs apparently differ greatly from yours, this debate is quite valid.

Welcome to the Forums!


----------



## JazzByChas

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Not quite sure I follow this line of thinking, maxwels. By accepting God as your savior and experiencing His fellowship, are you not by default, also accepting the religion he/He represents?


 
That depends GenJen: is knowing God a relationship, or is it a religion? That, I think, is one of the ideas that has been bantered back and forth in this and other threads about things "religious." I myself, believe that to know God personally, as with any human relationship, you must have a relationship. There are many religions out there, but, they seem to point out a lot of what you must _*do*_, and not whom you should *know*.

As an example, I know who Cher is: I know about her, her music, her acting, and whatever I read about her in magazines. But I don't know Cher personally, and doubt I ever will. And, if I am to get any satifaction with whom I perceive God to be, I would rather know Him personally, that to just know about Him as a "celebrity:" someone or something I read about or theorize about.

Whether there is life after death directly relates to
1) what your perceive yourself to be: are you eternal/spiritual or do you have "just one shot at it, therefore live it up (whatever that means to you), because after this, that's it.."
2) Is there a God at all, and is he energy/force/nature, or is He a real being with a personality, and can He communicate with us?
3) Or, are there only men and the universe; and are they just an "accident," whose outcome is to be determined by us, flawed creatures that we are...( I don't think anyone would claim to be perfect!). As a result, we must make the best of this world, as put out as much "good karma" as we can, so that it will come back to us?

Obviously, "life" after this life, depends on who runs this universe: us or (G)god(s).  Also if life is something whose outcome we determine, or (G)god(s) determine(s).


----------



## la reine victoria

> JazzByChas said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That depends GenJen: is knowing God a relationship, or is it a religion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chas. My own relationship with God began when I was age 3 (my earliest 'conscious' memory). I had practised no religion. He simply made me aware of himself. He touched my soul. This relationship has endured to the present day and I see no reason why it should end. Since it is a spiritual relationship I can't imagine God ending it when my physical body dies. Rather, in the afterlife, it will grow even stronger.
> 
> My God has no use for religions. The divisions which these have caused among his created men, and the terrible atrocities which are carried out by some, in the name of religion, must make him despair. Yet he gave us free will so, for the time being, he just can look on at what a mess his people have made. He is also very much aware of those who strive to improve the suffering of others. We (if we love our fellow men and have their welfare at heart) can be part of this 'striving to improve'. We witness it every day, either by personal experience or via the media.
> 
> I believe his plan makes this earth a testing ground for his creation. Our spirits will, I believe, be dealt with when we are free of our bodies. You may be thinking of 'good and bad' here, a term which I usually try to avoid. We can all be good but our mere humanity makes us bad too. There are many degress of badness from minor misdemeanours to pure evil. I don't believe in a place called 'hell' with its Biblical description of burning flames, presided over by a 'triumphant' Satan. Hell, for me, would be to be totally cut off from my relationship with God, for eternity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, "life" after this life, depends on who runs this universe: us or (G)god(s). Also if life is something whose outcome we determine, or (G)god(s) determine(s).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It's obvious that we don't run the universe. We are aware of it, within the limitations of our human understanding. To comprehend it is beyond us. In its vastness we are just like one grain of sand in an infinite desert.
> 
> We can't truly understand, and are certainly not in charge of, the way that all of nature is inter-related. Try inventing a new colour, other than those we already know from what we can see. Impossible! Try creating a new creature from water and a few chemical elements. Impossible!
> 
> We all have the choice of determining the outcome of our life. We are all  aware that we have an in-built instinct for self preservation, yet we can choose to destroy ourselves by doing things which we know will kill us.
> 
> God, in my view, is the one who determines the outcome of our lives.
> 
> 
> LRV
Click to expand...


----------



## ampurdan

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> We can't truly understand, and are certainly not in charge of, the way that all of nature is inter-related. Try inventing a new colour, other than those we already know from what we can see. Impossible! Try creating a new creature from water and a few chemical elements. Impossible!


 
"Try to build a device with which you can cross the sky" may have said someone in the 16th century, having in mind Leonardo's attempts.

We are not obviously the bosses in the Universe... We know there are some physic patterns, upon which we've built our science and technology. Everything else is mere speculation repeated quintillions of times.


----------



## la reine victoria

ampurdan said:
			
		

> "Try to build a device with which you can cross the sky" may have said someone in the 16th century, having in mind Leonardo's attempts.
> 
> We are not obviously the bosses in the Universe... We know there are some physic*al* patterns, upon which we've built our science and technology. Everything else is mere speculation repeated quintillions of times.


 
Hi Ampurdan.

Re Leonardo and his drawings of a 'flying machine'.  I agree.

Who knows what future generations may be capable of?  

LRV


----------



## la reine victoria

borhane said:
			
		

> The fact that your little son ( I hope my god will protedt him from dangers ) know about God by instinct isn't it a proof that God exist , dear Victoria !!!!


 
A very good point Borhane.  

If you believe there is only one God, as I do, then doesn't that logically prove that we share a belief in the same God?


LRV


----------



## cherine

If we all believe in one God, this sure proves we believe in the same God : the One who created the universe. The difference is in the "religion" we adopt to express (?) our belief.
Do I make sense ?


----------



## Laia

cherine said:
			
		

> If we all believe in one God, this sure proves we believe in the same God : the One who created the universe. The difference is in the "religion" we adopt to express (?) our belief.
> Do I make sense ?


 
But we all do not believe in God


----------



## diegodbs

Exactly, not all of us believe in God. I don't believe and I live quite as happy as those who believe.


----------



## cherine

Sorry Laia and Diego, I didn't mean ALL of us believe in God, what I said was a reply to Her Majesty's post.


----------



## Laia

Don't worry Cherine, I thought that you meant that the fact that you all believe in God was a prove that God exists.
Maybe I'd had to read it twice... hehe


----------



## I.C.

It’s a non sequitur.

If we all believe in the existence of unicorns, does it follow that unicorns do exist in base reality?
No.

If we all believe the sun revolves around the earth, does it follow this is the case?
No.

If all or most humans were principally in favour of anthropocentric worldviews, does this imply these views constitute evidence for an anthropocentric reality?* 
No.

Not unless we assume that belief creates reality.
Does actually everyone believe in one god?
Neither.

-----------------------------------
_*: Maybe due to their biological make-up, to being social animals who fear the unknown because it can kill and who fear death, in combination with the set-up of pattern recognition and of the procedures for the establishment of cause-effect relationships.

For humans, who are oriented towards their fellow men, who try to see faces everywhere, who fear the dark, who fear death, world-explanations constructed around gods (in particular anthropomorphic ones) are obvious solutions to explain the unexplained or umcomfortable. These constructions can also work great for establishing social rules and hierarchies – watch out, someone who’s invisible is watching you all the time -, so some can be expected to be socially stable.
_


----------



## Fernando

If we all belive in the existence of Love, does it follow that Love exist? Yes.

If I was a martian and I would find a group of people in the desert, I would say they are thirsty, and all of them are longing for a thing, they call it "water". Maybe they can not explian very well how it is, its exact composition or if how many parts of hydrogen and oxygen it has, but of course it is an evidence (not a complete prove) that water exists.


----------



## Laia

Fernando said:
			
		

> If we all belive in the existence of Love, does it follow that Love exist? Yes.
> 
> If I was a martian and I would find a group of people in the desert, I would say they are thirsty, and all of them are longing for a thing, they call it "water". Maybe they can not explian very well how it is, its exact composition or if how many parts of hydrogen and oxygen it has, but of course it is an evidence (not a complete prove) that water exists.


 
Yes, but this argument doesn't work with God.


----------



## la reine victoria

cherine said:
			
		

> If we all believe in one God, this sure proves we believe in the same God : the One who created the universe. The difference is in the "religion" we adopt to express (?) our belief.
> Do I make sense ?


 
You make perfect sense to me Cherine. 

This is why I believe God has no time for man-made religion. The world's major religions, Christianity (33%), Islam (21%), 'Non Religious' {Theistic but practise no religion} (16%), Hinduism (14%), all have differernt teachings and beliefs about God. It is from these different teachings that confllicts arise - intolerance, religious hatred, fundamentalism and fanatacism. In the case of Judaism (0.22%) we know that the Jews have, throughout history, been the victims of racial hatred too.

So, by all means, let people follow a religion if they so desire. But for God's sake and all our sakes (literally), let them remember what they are taught (which is essentially love of God and their fellow man). Maybe, then, the world might become a safe and peaceful place for us all to enjoy.

To those who don't believe in God, I entirely respect your opinions.  This is the whole point of the discussion - that we all share and respect each other's views. 

Footnote: I heard on a BBC programme, last night, that 50% of the British believe in an afterlife.

LRV


----------



## diegodbs

Fernando said:
			
		

> If we all belive in the existence of Love, does it follow that Love exist? Yes.
> 
> If I was a martian and I would find a group of people in the desert, I would say they are thirsty, and all of them are longing for a thing, they call it "water". Maybe they can not explian very well how it is, its exact composition or if how many parts of hydrogen and oxygen it has, but of course it is an evidence (not a complete prove) that water exists.


 
But, Fernando, did everybody think that the Earth was fixed and the Sun circled round the Earth? Yes. Was it true? No. 
What someone may believe or not can't prove anything. I am convinced there is no god and I can't prove it. You believe that there is god, and you can't prove it either.
We don't need to believe, we need to know.


----------



## I.C.

Fernando said:
			
		

> If we all belive in the existence of Love, does it follow that Love exist? Yes.



No. Incorrect logical structure.
Not unless you define 'love' as a belief or a consequence of belief.


----------



## annettehola

I often pondered on this.
I accept this as my belief: 
The energy in the universe I belive to be constant.
That's perhaps because I cannot imagine that which has no limit.
Yes, maybe I can imagine it. But not for long. It leaves me spinning in the head
If the energy in the universe is forever, forever, forever the same
is that perhaps why nothing changes essentially?
If man really, truly did progress we should have solved the problem long ago.....no?

We still discuss what Plato did discuss among his pillars in Greece. When there is no answer we say: but some problems are eternal. Are they? Or perhaps it's the mind of man that so is. Eternal and essentially immobile. From generation to generation and onwards till Eternity.

I think Life is a circle of Energy inexplicable.

I think dead people have no memory. 

I think no new circle can take its beginning if a memory of the old one is part of it.

I essentially know absolutely nothing on this subject.

Annette


----------



## Fernando

diegodbs said:
			
		

> But, Fernando, did everybody think that the Earth was fixed and the Sun circled round the Earth? Yes. Was it true? No.
> What someone may believe or not can't prove anything. I am convinced there is no god and I can't prove it. You believe that there is god, and you can't prove it either.
> We don't need to believe, we need to know.



1) Off-topic: If the Earth and the Sun were the only object in Solar System it did not matter anyway. 

2) Democracy is not a source of knowledge, agreed. Democracy is sh*t from a logical point of view. 

3) We are not talking about God, but afterlife, though I admit the problem is quite similar.

4) Democracy does not work with Science, but it does with psycological need. If people needs something love or democracy or whatsoever, ou should better give love or democracy or whatsoever, because they probably need them, though you do not find any 'logic' in this. Inner life contains such things as love for children, paternity, etc. We will have to discriminate which are good or bad, but please, do not say to me that "paternity" is illogical and it does not exist. 

5) Remember that the only logical, inatttackable, strong, belief is solipsism. One platonic would say to you that evidence is nothing and is no source for knowledge. I am not neither a solipsist nor a platonic: I think evidence (not only logic) is a (the main) source for physical knowledge. But I think that our mind knows (in the complete sense of the word "know") other realities (in the complete sense of the word"reality").


----------



## ampurdan

There could be an afterlife without God. All of us could be ghosts living other existences or whatever... or just imagining that we are still alive... You know. In fact, ancient European religions (the ones which made men erect Menhir fields and the like) were based on the cult of the dead. I personally find those believes more likely to be true that all our monotheistic delirium... Though I don't believe in them either.

I like the idealistic Idea of thought and believe creating reality. In fact, our cultural world is all made up that way. God exist and ceases to exist insomuch we believe in him. We need him to take some social or personal role, so we create him/her/it. As time goes by, we change his features. First he was a terrible bloodthirsty God... Then he was just very severe and jealous... Then he became a loving Father who sends his children to Hell... Then Hell is not what we thought it was... Or maybe it does not exist... Then even usury is not any more a sin... Then... And so on.

World is but what appears to us... We don't need any God to explain it anymore, the same way believers don't need any other God to explain their God. We don't need an afterlife either to live this life. We just know we are going to die, so don't lose your precious time because and don't get anxious... Because maybe tomorrow you just won't be there.

Fernando, I'm afraid I don't understand your point on paternity. Do you mean we need God the same way we need to bring children to this World (do we?) or what? Who has said that paternity is illogical? The fact that it is a highly cultural concept based on biology does not make it illogical.

Love, hatred, jealousy, happinness, thirst, hunger, satisfaction, sadness, shame, pride... All of them exist, as we experience them (for Platonists they do exist also) AND because we believe them to be the way we believe them to be (some of them are half culturally formed). I don't understand your point on solipsism either... 

That's how I see it...


----------



## la reine victoria

[





> quote=ampurdan]There could be an afterlife without God. All of us could be ghosts living other existences or whatever... or just imagining that we are still alive... *You know. In fact, ancient European religions (the ones which made men erect Menhir fields and the like) were based on the cult of the dead.* I personally find those believes more likely to be true that all our *monotheistic delirium...* Though I don't believe in them either.


 
Wearing my archaeologist's hat, Ampurdan.

In the point you make about *menhirs* *and the cult of the dead*. Are you aware that most of these stones were first erected between 3,000 and 5,000 years ago? They were often associated with burials or were built close to burial sites. Since we have no written evidence from these prehistoric people, we can only presume that the enormous physical efforts they had to make in order to erect the stones, often having to drag them over long distances, was because they revered their dead and had a firm belief that their souls lived on in an afterlife.

It is believed that the menhirs, megaliths and henges were ceremonial stones or memorials where worship of the ancestors took place.

How do you explain these peoples' belief in an afterlife? I believe it was innate. As was that of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Chinese, etc. I have mentioned this in an earlier post.

As for *monotheistic delirium*. Returning to prehistoric man, we don't know what his perception of God was. It's quite possible he had many gods - sun, moon, fire, water, etc. plus an all powerful God who created these things.

Yet when it came to burying their dead there is much evidence, in the wealth of 'grave goods' discovered, that the dead were buried in preparation for an afterlife. I have been privileged to work on the excavation of many such burials and seen for myself the careful way in which the dead were buried, along with selected personal possessions, ready for the 'next life'.



LRV


----------



## ampurdan

Thank you for your illustrative remarks, Laura... As for the cult of the dead: well, that was precisely my point. They believe in an afterlife... Without God (probably). Was their believe innate? I doubt it. Language is not innate, much less are believes. Without further knowledge, I'd rather say that they were terribly afraid of death and they invested so much effort to make themselves believe that warriors and wise old men (I guess) achieved a good seat in the world of shadows. A similar impulse rose Cathedrals some thousands of years later... Now... We have pitched this Global stall and we spend our time trying to keep it stood up... And we all have those little and big things which we believe to be worth living. We also invest our efforts...

I doubt that first men had a creator God. I think they just thought the World had always been there. Of course, they believe there were "gods", invisible powers behind the nature and obscure passions, which men should please and even use for their profit (sorcerors and witches etc.). It was their magic way to explain reality.

Greeks did not have a creator God. Hesiod was the first one to give a mythological explanation for the origin of the world (or the ordening of the world from Chaos) as late as the VII century b. C. It's very likely that he took some of their histories from some non-Greek Eastern legends... The Homeric World knew nothing of such things, Zeus was but an alpha-male in the species of the gods. Greeks depured they ideological world in a wonderful way, but they never approached monotheism (unless you say that Plato's Good was a God as monotheists tend to consider it).

The first one to concive a Creator-God had been Zoroaster (apart from Atenism), Nietzsche said he was the first one who mixed morality and religion... Maybe it was far more gradual. Ahura-Mazda created two gods, the good one who lead to happiness, and the evil one who lead to dispair (anyone does recognize the same dualism as in the psalms?).

Far from being innate, I think that afterlife and gods hardly rely on culture. Had I been relinquished in a forest, with no possibility to talk to anyone... I'm afraid I'd only have my fears as gods... But they would not have a name.


----------



## Edwin

Fernando said:
			
		

> Remember that the only logical, inatttackable, strong, belief is solipsism.



Did you hear about the solipsist who was angry that more people did not share his belief in solipsism?


----------



## Fernando

I suppose he was a schizophrenic solipsist.


----------



## la reine victoria

All very interesting Ampurdan. To put my point briefly, nothing will dissuade me from my belief in God, nor from believing that my soul will depart my body when I die, to return, eventually, to God who created me.

There are some whose souls are open and receptive to God's voice, others who are so distracted by what they call 'the pursuit of pleasure' that they never have time to listen.

My younger son, baptized and confirmed in the Anglican Church, but not a church-goer, came to me one day and said, 'You can have this silver crucifix which Grandma gave me when I was confirmed. I've left the God Squad for good. I told him that he may have abandoned God but that God would never abandon him. He was 15 at the time and off 'in the pursuit of pleasure' with the fair sex.

About four years later he took up the practise of Kushido, a non-contact martial art. He was taught meditation and the development of spiritual awareness. He now claims to know God personally. He has been following this philosophy for the last 10 years. Recenty married to a devout Evangelical Christian he told her firmly, 'Feel free to practise your own beliefs but never try to change mine.' They have mutual respect and the subject is rarely discussed.

My elder son, a gifted scientist (and university drop-out), used to find the concept of God impossible. However, as he has matured and grown spiritually, he now acknowledges the existence of God. He spends long hours walking in the wild and beautiful Derbyshire Peakside district near his home. I believe, in the silence and isolation of this place, he heard God's voice and responded to it. He follows no man-made religion but has, as I do, a one-to-one relationship with God.

Both my sons believe in an afterlife.

I said I would be brief, but seem to have rambled on at length.


LRV


----------



## ampurdan

I don't want to change your spiritual believes if they are so good to you. All the more when the fact that you believe doesn't make you behave in a different way towards the others or justify an attempt to make other people believe in a purportedly-God-made morality. I find very unlikely that he exists and I really find this World more conceptually bearable if there's no such a God. I have nothing against meditation and talking to God, maybe some day I will practice it again... This time I'll know that my God is just a magnified and beautified image of myself, despite the Sacred Books attempts to make their readers think another way.


----------



## la reine victoria

ampurdan said:
			
		

> I don't want to change your spiritual believes if they are so good to you. All the more when the fact that you believe doesn't make you behave in a different way towards the others or justify an attempt to make other people believe in a purportedly-God-made morality. I find very unlikely that he exists and I really find this World more conceptually bearable if there's no such a God. I have nothing against meditation and talking to God, maybe some day I will practice it again... This time I'll know that my God is just a magnified and beautified image of myself, despite the Sacred Books attempts to make their readers think another way.


 
You are completely missing my point Ampurdan. As stated in an earlier post, I have known God since as far back as I can remember - age 3. I had no knowledge of Scared Books at that age, nor do I now blindly accept that what they say is the truth.

What I believe does make me behave differently towards others. I put their well-being before my own, even complete strangers with whom I get into conversation. But I never talk to anyone, other than really close friends, about my beliefs. I am not a proselytizer.

One more point. I often walk for miles in the beautiful countryside of the Isle of Wight. Usually I never see any other person. A possibly dangerous situation in which to place myself - a lone female. At times, just as I'm beginning to enter isolated countryside, I hear a 'silent voice' (yes, it is possible) saying, 'No, turn back, don't go there.' I never ignore it as I believe it to be a 'danger warning'. (NB: I am not schizophrenic!).

You say that one day you may decide to practise meditation and 'talking to God again.' Does this mean that you were once a believer?  


LRV


----------



## annettehola

Look, honestly, what you're talking about - the voice there that speaks and yet is silent - might not that just as well be called intuition?
I always listen to mine. But I never call it "God." I call it the Flash.

Life is a miracle, and death? I think it's a period of transition rather than the end of all. What we call "death" is perhaps a transit hall. 

I don't know..I feel uneasy..this about you being nice to all and sundry because you sometimes hear a voice that is silent...I can't quite swallow it, honestly...To say it the way I feel it to be: it borders on being a bit "saved" if you see what I mean.
Annette


----------



## timebomb

Although I don't believe in a God or a afterlife (I think that's just wishful thinking), I must say I have great respect for LRV's beliefs.  I wish I have the same kind of faith.

I think there's no way anyone can prove if there's a God or not.  In my case, I've come to the conclusion it doesn't matter.  I'll find out soon enough when my turn comes.

For the present moment though, I hold this view.  To better understand ourselves, we can learn from other living organisms.  It would be highly arrogant of us to think we're special, that only we possess souls.  Evolution didn't happen just to put us on planet earth.  In other words, we're not the goal but just one of it's many products.  It just so happens we're the dominant species.  It's not stated anywhere in the road of evolution that we'll be here forever.  Chances are quite good we will destroy ourselves and go extinct one day.  Some people speak of the "end of the world".  That's also highly arrogant because as far as the ant and cockcroach are concerned, it's not the end of the world but just the end of mankind.

Why would a salmon swim thousands of miles to the creek of its birth just to lay eggs and die?  Why would the male of the black widow spider risks its life to mate with the female?  Why would a living organism deliberately choose to kill itself when the main purpose of any organism is to live as long as it can?

The answer, I think, lies in evolution again.  As individuals, we're not important.  It's the survival of the species that is paramount.  Besides that, we also want to make sure our genes are always there.  We want to live forever and the truth is, we can.  Your genes can live forever, if you make sure they are passed down.  

When I understood this, it gave me a sense of peace.  I know, as an individual, my time will come but a part of me will live in my daughters.  

Loh K L


----------



## la reine victoria

annettehola said:
			
		

> Look, honestly, what you're talking about - the voice there that speaks and yet is silent - might not that just as well be called intuition?
> I always listen to mine. But I never call it "God." I call it the Flash.
> 
> Life is a miracle, and death? I think it's a period of transition rather than the end of all. What we call "death" is perhaps a transit hall.
> 
> I don't know..I feel uneasy..this about you being nice to all and sundry because you sometimes hear a voice that is silent...I can't quite swallow it, honestly...To say it the way I feel it to be: it borders on being a bit "saved" if you see what I mean.
> Annette


 
I didn't claim that the 'silent voice' was God, Annette. As you say, it could be intuition. I don't have a special name for it. Your 'the Flash' sums it up perfectly though. 

I'm not 'nice' to all and sundry because of a 'silent voice' I hear. It's just part of my nature. I'd far rather be 'nice' (how I dislike that word in this context - it makes me sound like Goody Two-Shoes) to people than nasty. My parents brought me up this way. Being kind to others brings un-looked and un-asked for rewards. Good karma, and all that.

On the other side of my nature. heaven help anyone who is unkind or nasty to me. Depending on who it is, I either treat them with freezing cold silence (I won't let them see they have hurt me) or give them a severe 'tongue lashing' (as we say in the UK). In other words, I tell them exactly what I think of them. I have a girlfriend (no I'm not a lesbian) who says some very nasty things to me at times. I've learned that this is part of her personality and have come to accept it. But I always tell her what I think of her remarks, in no uncertain manner, and she says, 'Sorry, I don't know why I said it.'

Such is the diveresity of our genetic make up. What a boring world it would be if we were all the same.

Please don't associate me with the word 'saved'. I get sick and tired of 'born-again Christians' (whom I don't know) approaching me in the street and saying 'Have you been saved? I have wonderful news for you.' I walk on and ignore them because I know they will proselytize. I also ignore those who are 'conducting surveys' or 'taking opinion polls' since their aim is usually to try and sell me something I don't need

So I'm not 'nice' to all and sundry. My philosophy is 'treat other people as you would wish to be treated.' That is to be courteous, considerate, helpful.' You make it sound as if it were a crime to behave in this way, Annette.

LRV


----------



## annettehola

"What I believe does make me behave differently towards others. I put their well-being before my own, even complete strangers with whom I get into conversation."

This was what I reacted to. I thought - and think - the tone underlying it sounded saved.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think it criminal to be all the things you believe in insofar as they're part of my own set of values; too.

If you feel I offended you, then sorry. Sometimes words come out that way.

Annette


----------



## la reine victoria

annettehola said:
			
		

> "What I believe does make me behave differently towards others. I put their well-being before my own, even complete strangers with whom I get into conversation."
> 
> This was what I reacted to. I thought - and think - the tone underlying it sounded saved.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I don't think it criminal to be all the things you believe in insofar as they're part of my own set of values; too.
> 
> If you feel I offended you, then sorry. Sometimes words come out that way.
> 
> Annette


 
No offence taken Annette.  I'm pleased to hear we share the same set of values.  

La Reine V


----------



## ampurdan

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> You are completely missing my point Ampurdan. As stated in an earlier post, I have known God since as far back as I can remember - age 3. I had no knowledge of Scared Books at that age, nor do I now blindly accept that what they say is the truth.
> 
> What I believe does make me behave differently towards others. I put their well-being before my own, even complete strangers with whom I get into conversation. But I never talk to anyone, other than really close friends, about my beliefs. I am not a proselytizer.


 
Well, it’s funny because I think you are missing my point. My previous post was not meant as an attack to what you had said but, quite the contrary, as a recognition to your religious stance. I admit that when I said that your believes did not made you behave differently, I obviously chose the worst wording I could have chosen; I meant that your believing in a thing which is beyond all possible prove does not make you behave towards others in a way in which you would by no means behave if you considered only what is proven to be true and false, valid and invalid, more or less likely. Some believers do behave differently and, for instance, proselytize or try to make others have a social view with its legal consequences, which has only sense if you suppose there is a God behind some social institutions, and so we cannot change them. And it was meant as an explanation of my view of God, that’s the reason why I produced Sacred Books. I think that the iconoclastic vein in the Bible (maybe also in the Koran) is due to the attempt to make God look as if he was not a created being, Man’s great created being. An idol is more easily viewed as a thing made by humans than something that we cannot see or touch… A thing that is only mysterious words filled with air… What we don't know is taboo, is sacred.

I’ve read all your posts explaining experiences for which I find no other label than "supernatural", and those explaining your innate awareness of God. All this sounds very, very romanticist to me and reminds me, on the one hand, of the character of the Beautiful Soul in Goethe’s Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship, and on the other hand, of the taste for the shadow world of death and “the eerie” (_das Umheimlich_). I found all of this very interesting, althought I think that all the eerie and the sinister is within ourselves, joined with what we deem to be clear, pure, good, fair, beautiful and true.




			
				la reine victoria said:
			
		

> You say that one day you may decide to practise meditation and 'talking to God again.' Does this mean that you were once a believer?



I’ve never stopped believing. It's just that now I believe differently. Anyway, God did not make himslef known to me, but used some human mediators to instill his awareness into me. Maybe that’s the reason why my knowledge of his things is so imperfect, but I just can’t remedy it...


----------



## la reine victoria

> but, quite the contrary, as a recognition to your religious stance.


 
Ampurdan, I do not practise any man-made, organised religion. My God has no use for it.




> I think that the iconoclastic vein in the Bible


 
I no longer read the Bible, apart from some of the Psalms and the Song of Solomon which I find poetically beautiful (in the King James version). My awareness of God didn't come from the Bible - I was only 3 remember. I have no mental image of what God looks like, I just know that he *IS.*




> I’ve read all your posts explaining experiences for which I find no other label than "*supernatural",* and those explaining your innate awareness of God. All this sounds very, very *romanticist* to me and reminds me, on the one hand, of the character of the Beautiful Soul in Goethe’s Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship, and on the other hand, of the taste for the shadow world of death and “the eerie” (_das Umheimlich_). I found all of this very interesting, althought I think that all the eerie and the sinister is within ourselves, joined with what we deem to be clear, pure, good, fair, beautiful and true.


 
God, by his very mystery, is *supernatural*.

I have no *romanticist *notions of God.







> I’ve never stopped believing. It's just that now I believe differently. Anyway, *God did not make himslef known to me, but used* *some human mediators to instill his awareness into me*. Maybe that’s the reason why my knowledge of his things is so imperfect, but I just can’t remedy it...


 
Therein lie the differences between us.


LRV


----------



## ampurdan

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Therein lie the differences between us.


 
Obviously enough.


----------



## Quebar

hola a todos
en lo personal considero que los seres humanos somo desde que nacemos eternos solo que en esta eternidad pasamos por procesos, los cuales se dividen antes y despues de la muerte, el destino de tu alma depende de lo que creiste y de lo que viviste en la etapa antes de la muerte, lo que suceda despues de la muerte sugiero no lo intenten racionalizar porque practicamente es un asunto de fe.
tambien conozco personas que estuvieron en coma y vieron un tunel que conducia sus almas otros lugares.


----------



## Yuribear

Hi... I just saw this thread... Lady, I am sure you realise that each person is a world of its own, and a belief will always be a personal experience. Each person is going through their own personal experience in this life, and learning in their own way. 

In my personal experience, I do not like any structured religion in particular, but when I was studying ecology and in particular ecosystems in enclosed environments.. I was blown away by the perfection in nature, by how each species "specializes" according to its own particular environment. So much order!!! so much intelligence behind it all... So I talked to a friend of mine who at the time was doing his Ph.D. in Organic Chemistry, and he told me that he was 'scientifically convinced" that God (under whatever name or word you want to use) existed, and he gave me a simple example: If you want to build a house and I give you the bricks, the wood, the cement, etc. and explode them.... you will not have a house. You need some organized intelligence behind it to make it become a house. Extrapolate this to nature and you have the same result.

Now, getting back to your question. Matter cannot be destroyed, only changed. I am reading a very interesting book written by Michael Newton, Ph.D. , "Journey of Souls", which talks exactly about this. For years, he has hipnotized his patients and has discovered similarities in their descriptions. You might want to check it out of your public library.

Spirituality is an inner experience. Meditation is a wonderful tool. The realms of love cannot be proven in a lab, only in your inner experience. Someone who has never known love, will tell you it does not exist, but the one that has, will not tell you... you will notice!


----------



## maxiogee

I'm more worried - as I look around at the battered and tattered, the hungry and the poor - about whether there is a life before death!


----------



## la reine victoria

An excellent, clear contribution, Yuribear.  Thank you.

Many of today's leading scientists are believers in a creative power, which they choose to call 'God'.  Like you and your friend they have witnessed the amazing orderliness and 'following of rules' which are so evident in our present knowledge of the universe.

Even Einstein, when he viewed the planets and stars through a telescope, declared that he wanted to know how God had created the universe.

Throughout mankind's existence on earth, this question has been 
pondered on.  We all have innate curiousity.  Were it otherwise we would not have progressed.

Personal experience is, of course, the reason why some of us believe and others do not.  I think I've made it very clear that my own belief is based entirely on personal experience.  Yet I hasten to add it is not proof positive.  I sometimes find myself wondering if what I believe is, in fact, real.  This is part of my human nature.  Happily I still continue to believe.


LRV


----------



## GipSy AnNy

Well, If it´s life after death? I think it couldn´t be possible ´cause to die means that everythings over what I think is that your soul set free  ´cause the Body is just an armor  so the soul rest in peace for ever and ever and ever

And also, you finally could find the eternal peace you wouldn´t have to worry about anything Maybe, you could born again in other time, another country, another family, friends, and style of life.


----------



## la reine victoria

GipSy AnNy said:
			
		

> Well, If it´s life after death? I think it couldn´t be possible ´cause to die means that everythings over what I think is that your soul set free ´cause the Body is just an armor so the soul rest in peace for ever and ever and ever
> 
> And also, you finally could find the eternal peace you wouldn´t have to worry about anything Maybe, you could born again in other time, another country, another family, friends, and style of life.


 
Welcome to Word Reference forums GipSy AnNy 

I notice your intersting point of 'the sould being set free, as the body is just an armour.'  This is the essence of the subject we are discussing.

Am I therefore right in thinking that you believe the soul and body to be two distinct entities?

You also mention the possibility of reincarnation.  Is this another of your beliefs?

Thank you.

La Reine V


----------



## Yuribear

Dear la reine victoria,

Regarding what you said....



			
				la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Personal experience is, of course, the reason why some of us believe and others do not. I think I've made it very clear that my own belief is based entirely on personal experience. *Yet I hasten to add it is not proof positive.* I sometimes find myself wondering if what I believe is, in fact, real. This is part of my human nature. Happily I still continue to believe.LRV



... All I can tell you is that you need to give it some time. Continue on your own path, as we all are, and hopefully some day you will "*realize*" some truths from you own inner experience, that are immovable, for you know with every fiber of your being that _*that*_ is truth, even if the whole world tells you the contrary. When you reach such a realization, your love, tolerance and sympathy for others also increases, for you comprehend their inner struggle.


----------



## maxiogee

To those who believe in reincarnation - what happens after it?


----------



## la reine victoria

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Dear la reine victoria,
> 
> Regarding what you said....
> 
> 
> 
> ... All I can tell you is that you need to give it some time. Continue on your own path, as we all are, and hopefully some day you will "*realize*" some truths from you own inner experience, that are immovable, for you know with every fiber of your being that _*that*_ is truth, even if the whole world tells you the contrary. When you reach such a realization, your love, tolerance and sympathy for others also increases, for you comprehend their inner struggle.


 



Thank you Yuribear,

Without wishing to sound pompous, I believe I have already reached that stage of realization and, no matter what others may try to tell me to the contrary, I shall hold fast to what I believe.

What I meant to convey was that, by our very human nature, we all stop to ask ourselves questions from time to time.  Just an odd moment of doubt might creep in.  However, if we have had a lifelong (mine is very long) experience of '*knowing'* then the doubts are quickly assuaged.


LRV


----------



## GipSy AnNy

yes..body and soul are different, ´cause the soul is inside the body...it´s like water inside a bottle, or maybe a bird in a cage..something like that. 
Your soul is what you are, all your feelings, thoughts, it is the basically esence, I got  the perfect example: it´s like a perfum inside a bottle, when you open up it, it spreads throuhg the air and it last in your mind. Soul is like a perfum, there is gonna be someones who will like it and some others who wouldn´t like it. 
 What do you think about it?

Atte, 
Gipsy Anny


----------



## GipSy AnNy

Also, it can not been seen either, I think there are the differents between body and soul, absolutely,they´re 2 different entities, but without 1 of them would be impossible to exist, so you would be dead...


----------



## grumpus

Hi All,

a lot of nonsense on this thread.  No evidence whatsoever for life after death, no evidence whatsoever that there exists any entity in this universe that cares about the human condition.   There is certainly a ton of evidence against these ideas, do I need to state them?    Don't elevate the importance or value of human beings to something they/we are not, it's very arrogant.

saludos,
Grumpus


----------



## GenJen54

grumpus said:
			
		

> Don't elevate the importance or value of human beings to something they/we are not, it's very arrogant.


 
It's equally as arrogant to dismiss others' views by calling them "nonsense," simply because they do not adhere to your own views and values. We encourage an ideal of mutual respect here.

Proof is not necessary to a lot of people. Some people believe that "faith" in all of its forms, is greater than "proof." 

With a nod to Carl Sagan's _Contact_, "Do you love your father?" Your mother? If so, prove it. Scientifically. Is there a formula for this? Some rational explanation? I think not.

Love, like faith to some people, needs no "proof." It either is, or isn't. For many here, it definitely is. It would be nice if all could respect that idea, even if they do not agree with it.


----------



## grumpus

Hi Gens,
fair enough.

faith is by definition believing something for which there is either NO evidence or 
only COUNTER evidence.
Everyone, whether they want to admit it or not, utimately lives their lives based solely on evidence (i.e., what the "know" or have "observed").  For example, think about jumping out of a window, do you "know" what will happen?  Yes, you do and you will act accordingly.
So what you're saying below is not really true in the FINAL ANALYSIS.

Proof is not necessary to a lot of people. Some people believe that "faith" in all of its forms, is greater than "proof." 

People can talk about "faith" or "believing" all they want, but they will always make a decision based on what they have "observed".  If they don't, we call them "crazy, insane" etc...

Sorry to all for the "nonsense/arrogant"  comment.

Grumpus


----------



## la reine victoria

> grumpus
> 
> People can talk about "faith" or "believing" all they want, but they will always make a decision* based on what they have "observed".* If they don't, we call them "crazy, insane" etc...
> 
> Sorry to all for the "nonsense/arrogant" comment.


 
So am I crazy and insane, Grumpus, for believing because of what* I have felt* *in my soul?*

La Reine V


----------



## Maria Juanita

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Matter cannot be destroyed, only changed. I am reading a very interesting book written by Michael Newton, Ph.D. , "Journey of Souls", which talks exactly about this. For years, he has hipnotized his patients and has discovered similarities in their descriptions. You might want to check it out of your public library.



I'm having a déjà-vû now. I remember I have read a book called "muchas vidas, muchos sabios" by Dr Brian Weiss (I believe it's called in english "Many lives, many masters") but I had this feeling that I wanted more scientific proves on it, besides the fact this book is a best seller and I don't trust BS too much.
I will check over the internet about this book you recommended, maybe it will take a different aproach on the subject.




			
				Yuribear said:
			
		

> Spirituality is an inner experience. Meditation is a wonderful tool. The realms of love cannot be proven in a lab, only in your inner experience. Someone who has never known love, will tell you it does not exist, but the one that has, will not tell you... you will notice



ummm... that's the reason why this kind ob subjects are so obscure and they lead to many different interpretations. I once read an article where they said most of tunnel experiences people would have after a coma could be the product of some chemical reaction into the brain, like a lack of oxygen that causes a delusion or something; but then we have Gypsy Anny who talks us about the soul and birds in cages...  I really would like to believe there's something behind the curtain but that also sort of scares me. Sometimes I think that maybe the same way we came to this world, swiming in a sweet place and only remembering a blank space before it. Just thoughts.

Saludillos,

Maria Juanita


----------



## grumpus

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> So am I crazy and insane, Grumpus, for believing because of what* I have felt* *in my soul?*
> 
> La Reine V


 
Hi La Reine V,

I am not trying to be coy but I really don't know you mean.  All as I can say for sure is that you will always ultimately act based on your "experience" i.e., what you "know/have observed" of the world.  If you don't do this, then, yes, I (and everybody else) would consider you crazy.

Our desires about afterlives and gods are just that, desires.  There is no empirical evidence for these things.  
Could you give me a concrete example, where what you 'felt" in your soul
was/or made an observable reality.?  Then, I could attack you better (ha ha)

I disagree vehemently with Gens.  Everything, yes, everything needs proof.  He is assuming the inability to explain the complexity of the human organism (love, emotion etc) denigrates or lessens somehow the rational approach seeking "proof"  of something.  I could give an example using "love" if you'd like.  

un abrazo,
Grumpus


----------



## maxiogee

grumpus said:
			
		

> I disagree vehemently with Gens.  Everything, yes, everything needs proof.



You would seek proof that I find the music of Séan Ó Riada powerfully evocative and that I see great beauty in the petals of a rose?

I'm sorry, but you're never going to be able to measure those, because the man who does the musical measuring hates Irish music and the woman who does the flower measuring loathes roses and prefers sunflowers.


----------



## grumpus

Hi Maxiogee,
and read the  two following sentences, which is/was the important part.

-----
" He is assuming the inability to explain the complexity of the human organism (love, emotion etc) denigrates or lessens somehow the rational approach seeking "proof" of something. I could give an example using "love" if you'd like. "
-----

They way you would APPROACH PROOF (whether you can do it or not is not the issue here!!!) is EXACTLY the same as "proving" the second law of thermodynamics or the "proving" the existence of gravity.
Don't confuse the two issues.

So you "like" and get "charged" by this singer.  If I am rational, I will first attempt to decide what "like"  and "get charged"  are.  We do this everyday on this forum.  Then, I would look for evidence.  You have all his albums, you smile or cry when you listen to it,  etc...  This is how you get "proof" of human emotions  (horribly complex subject, but the APPROACH TO PROOF IS EXACTLY THE SAME).

All of this is said with a light and airy tone (ha ha)

saludos,
Grumpus


----------



## la reine victoria

grumpus said:
			
		

> Hi La Reine V,
> 
> I am not trying to be coy but I really don't know you mean. All as I can say for sure is that you will always ultimately act based on your "experience" i.e., what you "know/have observed" of the world. If you don't do this, then, yes, I (and everybody else) would consider you crazy.
> 
> Our desires about afterlives and gods are just that, desires. There is no empirical evidence for these things.
> Could you give me a concrete example, where what you 'felt" in your soul
> was/or made an observable reality.? Then, I could attack you better (ha ha)
> 
> I disagree vehemently with Gens. Everything, yes, everything needs proof. He is assuming the inability to explain the complexity of the human organism (love, emotion etc) denigrates or lessens somehow the rational approach seeking "proof" of something. I could give an example using "love" if you'd like.
> 
> un abrazo,
> Grumpus


 
Grumpus,

If you really wish to attack me I suggest you read all my posts in this thread.  Then you will see what my personal experiences have been.  If you wish to consider me crazy (and have this opinion confirmed by everybody else, as you claim it will be) then be my guest.

Go ahead - I can take it.

My perfectly sane mind has observed much of what makes up your personality.  Politeness and forum rules make me refrain from further comment.

I look forward to your attack and proof of my craziness.


LRV


----------



## Yuribear

Dear Grumpus,

As Paramahansa Yogananda, one of India's most revered yogis will put it.... the physical world can be tested in a lab... but for the spiritual world, you can use the scientific yogic techniques, to prove their authenticity. 

As Maxiogee very well stated... you need to smell the rose to perceive the fragrance. You can meditate to feel the overpowering force of love. How can I explain to you the taste of a jackfruit if you have never tasted one? Can you prove or tell me it does not exist and it doesn't taste good?

But then, as the chinese proverb goes... you cannot pour water in a full cup. The important thing is that *you* feel satisfied and happy with your own conclusions of life... why do you even get upset if we talk about the fragrance of flowers, the spirit world, God?  You are happy without them... and so are we with them. Diversity  is a fact of life, be it biological, cultural, experiential...


----------



## Maria Juanita

grumpus said:
			
		

> Everything, yes, everything needs proof.



Now, can't the lack of proof be a proof by itself of the existence of something greater than ourselves?

I mean, the univere is full of things with no explanation at all...we, as humans, seem to be helpless and totally ignorant about some things yet (even most of them) that we like to call mysteries... :


----------



## Quebar

creo que seria sano para los seres humanos no basar sus creencias solo en lo que ven, debido a que existen muchas cosas que no vemos pero sabemos que estan alli, la vida si tiene una continuacion despues de la muerte, debido a que la muerte es solo una continuacion de la vida, los cristianos creemos que las personas al morir su cuerpo se deteriora hasta convertirse en polvo, y su alma queda en un lugar de espera en donde cada una de las almas esta o estara esperando para ser evaluada segun su fe enla resurrecion en cristo como Señor si va a un infierno o va al cielo, repito y hago constancia de que esto es una planteamiento netamente cristiano.

he dicho esto para aportar al thread la idea de la vida despues de la mmuerte desde una perspectiva cristiana, claro esta que la vida en el cielo es una historia muy hermosa, pero bueno esa daria para un nuevo thread y no quiero estar off topic.

espero haber aportado al conocimiento de alguien.


----------



## GenJen54

grumpus said:
			
		

> faith is by definition believing something for which there is either NO evidence or only COUNTER evidence.


 That is why it is "faith." It is trust in something unknown, something that cannot be evidenced "factually." It is a truth that goes beyond our human understanding to something of a different plane. It is as real as we want it to be. 



			
				grumpus said:
			
		

> Everything, yes, everything needs proof.


 If I may rephrase: Everything, yes, everything needs proof _*to you*_. Some are willing to believe in the "suspension of disbelief" and allow themselves to "believe" in their feelings / intuition / the "unknown." These people do not need, nor seek, proof for what they believe in.  Because you don't subscribe to this idea does not mean it is not valid for others.


----------



## grumpus

Hi all,

Please take my posts en "buena onda, porque lo son".  I am not trying to hurt or offend any one.  The first one wasn't well put, so I apologized for that one.  I am just trying to make a point, maybe I am not being very clear.

Grumpus


----------



## Maria Juanita

don't worry. I don't think they are offending anybody; In fact like it when someone has a totally opposed point of view, because I learn a lot and I'm also amused by the contrast.

see ya!


----------



## grumpus

Yuribear/Maria/Gens

Yes, we all need proof and it's all how when live our lives, whether we admit it or not.

Ex.

GWBush say we're in Iraq for democracy.  Should I take this on faith????
Democracy is REALLY hard to classify,  LIKE LOVE, .
But I, as all of you,  would not take this on faith.  There is a reality out there.
So, I would look at the evidence.  1st what is democracy?  We answer questions like this everydone (GREAT APPROACH!!!! and it works).

I would look at past claims of "bringing democracy"

Then I would look to see what this "democracy" is that we are bringing to Iraq.

This is what we all as rational human beings do.  We don't take things on faith, even if we say we do.

Abrazos, besos etc pa' todos.

Grumpus


----------



## GenJen54

*Putting on My **MOD HAT* (just in case you didn't know what one looked like)*: *While "proof" vs. "faith" is certainly an element and a crucial point in answering the "life after death" question, other topics - such as GW, etc., are not. 

I would ask that we please try to stick to the topic at hand. You are always welcome to open another thread on "Proof" vs. "Faith" where we can open up to further discussion. In this thread, however, I ask that you please keep to the argument as it revolves around the question of the existence of an afterlife. 

With Many Thanks.

GenJen54
Cultura Moderatadora!


----------



## luis masci

There are proof. What happens is many of us don’t believe it, but it’s another matter. 
Since Jesus Christ until many people who claimed they were witness of some way unknown by ordinary people. 
I wish to believe, but I must admit it’s hard to me too. Why we don’t trust these people who lived some extraordinary experience? That would be understandable for me, because being Argentinean I’m accustomed to be distrusted about everyone and everything, but people from first world countries…I don’t see the reason.


----------



## Yuribear

Getting back on track..   there is so much written about it, for those who want to investigate on the subject. I think there are two main issues deriving from this thread about if there is life after death:

1. what happens when we die, and
2. do we come back to live another life (reincarnation).

So far, whatever we say... is based on our personal experience or belief. So no use in getting into the "burden of proof" argument.

Regarding what happens when we die... it is certain that we will find out when we die for sure!!! There are several books written on this subject. I guess if one is interested you just need to read one, and take it or not. I already suggested one book.

Regarding reincarnation, again... likewise. However, if you have ever questioned what on earth you are doing in this life... for me is "to learn"... and it doesn't make sense to me to be given only one shot at it... what if I fail? I mean even in the worse of schools they give you another chance!!!


----------



## timebomb

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Regarding reincarnation, again... likewise. However, if you have ever questioned what on earth you are doing in this life... for me is "to learn"... and it doesn't make sense to me to be given only one shot at it... what if I fail? I mean even in the worse of schools they give you another chance!!!



But life isn't necessarily a school, Yuri.  I often question what's the meaning of life too but I've come to the conclusion there isn't any.  Not for an individual, there's none.  As a species, ("Home sapiens"), yes, there's a purpose to life.  And that purpose is to propagate ourselves.  

There's no "why".  There's only "How".  

As I've said before, it's highly arrogant of us to think of ourselves as special, that we're the only living organisms on planet earth that has to have a "meaning" for our existence.  Ants don't ask for a "meaning".  They just live and die.  Dinosaurs, when they were around, never asked for a "meaning" too.  As a species, they failed and are gone forever.  The best we can do as humans is to ensure our species remain around as long as possible.  But better my genes than yours, of course :lol:

Loh K L


----------



## Yuribear

Dear Loh... I do understand where are you coming from... I have spent over 25 years of my life working with wildlife and environmental issues. I do know about "speciesism" believe me... yet again, we are talking about purely personal experiences... I have gone through several experiences in my life... only to confirm (to myself) how much I have to learn... and when I talk about "we" ... as in "we are here to learn"... I do include "all my relatives"... in the purest Lakhota way... mitakuye oyasin... which includes living and non living... all that exists, all that can be seen and not be seen. I have learnt many lessons from birds and other creatures. From trees and rivers... there is much more to life to me than what you seem to see yourself and by this I do not mean that you are wrong... that is only the way you perceive reality... and I only have another perception. We are both right.

I believe it was Ramakrishna who told this story to his chelas (disciples)... when they went to him because they could not agree on what God was. He then blindfolded them and took them to touch an elephant. Each one touched only a part of the elephant... and described what they were touching. One described the trunk, another a leg, other the tail... and so on. Then, he took away the blindfold, and they could see it was an elephant. .... he then went to explain to them that in order to know the elephant... you have to become one with him.... (well how to do that... is part of the learning process for me).

Anyway, before I get off track again.... you perhaps will agree with me that we are responsible of what we make of our own life. For me this is the learning part. Maybe you do not consider this life as an interesting exploring experience but only as a cause and consequence.. fatality. Only you can answer that better than me. However, isn't it intersting to find out how others perceive or do not perceive life?


----------



## Edwin

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Regarding what happens when we die... it is certain that we will find out when we die for sure!!!



Well, if death is just an unconscious sleep from which one never awakes, we won't be able to find out what happens after we die.


----------



## timebomb

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Anyway, before I get off track again.... you perhaps will agree with me that we are responsible of what we make of our own life.


Dear Yuri,

We are.  Definitely.  Our lives are what we make of it and we have no one to blame if it does not turn out well.  If there's a God, I'm quite sure he wouldn't interfere 

I don't believe though that "we're here to learn".  The way you put it, it's as though it's the purpose of life.  Most of us choose to learn because that's the way to survive better.  In other words, learning is just a process.  It does not have any significance beyond that.  You can choose not to learn anything but chances are you won't survive very long 

We like to believe that there's a certain morality to everything and that someone up there is keeping watch.  I think that's wishful thinking.  In nature, there's no morality.  An elephant won't hesitate to squash an ant.  An adult lion will kill off all the cubs from the previous lion the moment he takes over his pride.  He does not care whether it's right or wrong to kill innocent cubs.  All he cares about is to propagate his own genes.  

There's no sin and you can't chalk up points by being good.  In a civil society, however, it makes sense to be nice to your fellow-man.  That's how we can live with each other peacefully and in the process, ensure our own survival.  

Some of us think we're in contact with a supreme being and that, occassionally, we can even feel his presence.  But why would God, if he exists, be so selective?  How could it be possible that some are *chosen* while others are not?  

When we look at the universe and all that is around us, we are fascinated by the sense of order.  So naturally, we believe there's a designer.  It could be, he's there but I seriously doubt he cares very much.

Loh K L


----------



## GipSy AnNy

HELLOOOO!!! friends!
I think that soul and spirit are different. Soul is non-touchable, it can feel but you can not see it, it is like the air. The spirit is your esence, it is what you are, what you think, while your soul feels every thought, every feeling.
I`d like and would be very glad to share my point of view with you all, and to share the different oppinions about it.
Thanks a lot.


----------



## annettehola

" soul and spirit are different. Soul is non-touchable, it can feel but you can not see it, it is like the air. The spirit is your esence, it is what you are, what you think, while your soul feels every thought, every feeling"

I don't know why this comes out in purple, but anyways: I think that what you say is highly self-contradictory. The soul can feel, you say, but is not essentially you as far as I understand you. The spirit, on the other hand, according to you, is our essential selves. We seem to think with the spirit according to you. 
First: I believe it to be a huge simplification to say that with the spirit we think and so this is what makes us what we are, that's our essential being. Descartes is long time dead, you know. 
Secondly, I believe feelings to be an indeed very great part of *being *human. My feelings, f.ex, are essentially me. I would not be me without them.

Annette


----------



## maxiogee

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Anyway, before I get off track again.... you perhaps will agree with me that we are responsible of what we make of our own life.



That word "responsible" implies 'responsible to some authority' - are you saying that we shall have to account for our behaviour here on earth?


----------



## maxiogee

grumpus said:
			
		

> They way you would APPROACH PROOF (whether you can do it or not is not the issue here!!!) is EXACTLY the same as "proving" the second law of thermodynamics or the "proving" the existence of gravity.
> Don't confuse the two issues.
> 
> So you "like" and get "charged" by this singer.  If I am rational, I will first attempt to decide what "like"  and "get charged"  are.  We do this everyday on this forum.  Then, I would look for evidence.  You have all his albums, you smile or cry when you listen to it,  etc...  This is how you get "proof" of human emotions  (horribly complex subject, but the APPROACH TO PROOF IS EXACTLY THE SAME).



You would, I fear, reduce the shape of a tree to a mathematical formula, and miss the beauty of it in the confusion of figures.
[I was standing looking at a tree today, while waiting for a bus, and was struck by the form of it, the natural progression from trunk to bough to branch to twig - each one thinner than the one it came from and each growing at an apparently random angle from its 'parent' - and I realised that there probably is an algorithm which models the growth of any species of tree. You sprang instantly to mind (in a good way).]

My point about Séan Ó Riada and the rose is that "I" find them beautiful and others don't - the beauty itself cannot be measured. 

What you are measuring is my "reaction to what I perceive as beauty" - not the "beauty" itself.


----------



## Roi Marphille

Is There Life after Death?
Well, I can't answer that *NOW*.


----------



## GipSy AnNy

That´s  a contradiction...How are you gonna live again if you´re death? it is impossible, maybe you rest in peace, or you go to some place like the _Twilight Zone_ or something...Think about it....I´m agree with you Roi...


----------



## Yuribear

Dear Loh, you Timebomb, you...

Well, you really put me to work this time... sorry I couldn’t reply before but you know how busy life can be. Anyway, you really got me there... true... learning is just a process. I admit to my heresy!!!  I guess I wasn’t being totally honest with you... FOR ME.... (notice that I am not making a global statement, as if I was the holder of all truth on Earth and therefore this should apply for all beings and non-beings)... so, for me alone... and for my husband too, life is all about becoming one with this Thing, with this Universal Wisdom, this Exquisite Order, this Loving Energy, this Universal Wisdom and Order... you can call it whatever you want... you do not recognize it? Well, fine with me too. ..... Our main method:.... learning, through trial and error, yogic practices, etc.  

Now regarding your statement....
*We like to believe that there's a certain morality to everything and that someone up there is keeping watch. I think that's wishful thinking. In nature, there's no morality. *

I do not see the world as what your are proposing, not at all, and I suggest we leave the world morality out of here.... That is one of those words so full with anthropocentric  connotations. What is immoral to one, might be very moral to another. So lets avoid using it. I do love animals... I love bears..... but I am fully aware that it is better not to get too close to them, *never* to get between a mother and her cubs, and *to get the heck out of there*, if there is little salmon in the rivers and you know they are hungry... anything is fair hunt when they are hungry!!!

But there are so many things, my dear, that science is far away from answering... and I do love biology. Explain to me how is it that phalarope chicks fly all by themselves, thousands of miles, to their wintering grounds where they have never been before... weeks after their parents have left the nesting grounds???? How on earth do turtle hatchlings return to exactly the same beach where they were born.... 7 or more years later without a GPS????  How on earth did my friend Debbie, who was diagnosed with terminal cancer with only three months to live, (and not a surgeon willing to do anything for her) healed completely months after intensive meditation, visualization, prayer and fasting???

Now... when you say....
_
*Some of us think we're in contact with a supreme being and that, occasionally, we can even feel his presence. But why would God, if he exists, be so selective? How could it be possible that some are *chosen* while others are not?*_

Let me ask you something Loh.... have you ever sat down and have gone within the realms of your innerself?... Yes, I know it might sound too “new agey” ... yet, meditation has been practiced by yogis for over thousands of years. Some yogis call yoga, the science of religions... for if you put it into practice you will get the desired results. But yet again...... and how do you know what is true or not? Well, that is why you have a brain, you use it to discern according to the information you have, next step, you use the trial and error techniques (learning??), then you use your intuition... which you can develop (meditation can be one way, not the only way). 

I do not think that it is God or whatever name you want to use, is being selective.... YOU ARE THE ONE BEING SELECTIVE!!!.... Are you interested in knowing God at all?? Why do some feel his presence??? Could it be that they are looking for Her/Him? 

Isn’t it true.. that if you want to meet me (and I am not posing as God) you will have to make an effort to try to get my email, a phone number, an address, at least???? the more you persist in trying to contact me in all possible ways... might turn on my curiosity... and I will answer your messages, and perhaps we will meet.  If you are REALLY interested... in God, in after life or non afterlife... wouldn’t it be fair to say that you will at least have to document yourself on the matter??? you are a researcher, aren’t you? you know how it works... you will have to do your own research following proposed methods.

All I can tell you my dear, is that after 11 years of meditation in my life.... I can get to a state where I feel an overpowering love invading my soul... not always... actually seldom. But one thing is for sure, my senses have sharpened, my power of concentration as well... and I am working on my will power, in order to achieve changes within myself. My life has changed for the better in all senses.

I do respect entirely, your vision of the world, the choices you have made for your life. If you have decided that you are not interested in finding out whether God exists or not, whether that energy within your body will transcend or not... my dear, you are more than welcomed!!! If you do not perceive what happens to that energy called soul within you once you biodegrate... at least you will be happy to contribute to returning nutrients to the soil so that other creatures might live, grow, reproduce and die... till eternity... whatever that is.

Oh... and If I am ever in the Singapore area... *beware*... I will move heaven and earth to find you and give you a bearhug!!!


----------



## birdie

To me Life and Death is like Yes or No.
Your body is either alive o dead, lol. I don't believe in life after death


----------



## Yuribear

maxiogee said:
			
		

> That word "responsible" implies 'responsible to some authority' - are you saying that we shall have to account for our behaviour here on earth?



Dear Maxiogee.... 

NO!!! I never said that!!!! What I mean is that you have to assume resposibility for your own acts...* to yourself.  *It is way too easy to blame others for what happens to you, for the choices you make... yes, we can all err... but still we are responsible for our errors. Whatever happens to us, you always have a "choice" in the "now", of which action to take... 

Let me give you an very stricking example... there are this unfortunte people who have been involved in terrible accidents that leave them without arms... yet some realize that they can still make the best out of their lifes and join sport programs.. and paraticipate in olympic games, and win medals... Wow... is that assuming reponsibility of their own lifes or what??? That's what I meant.


----------



## GenJen54

I don't have time at present to put the kind of thought into a post that Yuribear has, however, I agree wholeheartedly with much of what she has to say. 

There is an old Proverb - of Buddhist origin, I believe.  It is this:  "When the student is ready, the Teacher will come."  

If you are ready, within your being, to sense the presence of this Higher Power, whether you choose to call him/her/it God/Buddha/Allah and/or the Flying Spaghetti Monster (I kid not), this presence will be known to you. But you have to be willing and ready to feel this presence within your life. 

For some, it is no question. For others, who conscientiously or not, use the "ego" to block this innate power that is of potential in every man, it may take years of practice to attain this communication. 

I don't believe in "life after death" personally, because I do not believe in a true spiritual "death." I believe in a transendence of the soul - a change, a shift to another plane where, in failing to learn self-determined lessons in this life, we must try to learn them again. 

When the student is ready, the teacher will come.


----------



## la reine victoria

birdie said:
			
		

> To me Life and Death is like Yes or No.
> Your body is either alive o dead, lol. I don't believe in life after death


 
I respect your point of view Birdie. I agree with the death of the body -that is very evident. The heart stops, oxygen can't reach the brain, the body becomes icy cold and decomposition begins.

But do you see yourself as just a body? Are you not aware of another part of yourself which responds to beauty? Take things of beauty - we say 'our spirit is uplifted' when we react (often with tears of joy - as I do) to something which 'touches' us deep within. It might be a piece of music, a tiny wild flower clinging to a crack in a stone wall, a spectacular sunset, a clear night sky in which we can see millions of stars. Sometimes I get so uplifted when walking in the beautiful countryside around my home that I want to press my body against the green grass and become as one with all the created beauty of nature around me.

Call me 'odd', 'crazy', 'eccentric' or just plain daft. I know I'm not. Call it 'emotional' - it's not that either. It is something which I can't explain properly, it just happens. I believe it is a response from my soul, a way of thaking God for his marvellous creation. I have friends who think the same way, others who don't. Until you experience this for yourself you will never understand it.

We can debate this issue of 'life after death' till the cows come home (like millions before us have done) but will never arrive at a satisfactory answer. If there is nothing after we die then we'll know nothing about it. If there is something, won't a lot of us be in for a big surprise?


La Reine V


----------



## timebomb

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Oh... and If I am ever in the Singapore area... *beware*... I will move heaven and earth to find you and give you a bearhug!!!


If that's what you intend to do, Yuri, I wonder if I should go into hiding now  But seriously, look me up if you're around the neighbourhood and I'll be only too happy to meet you.  No bearhugs though.  We don't practise that here and my wife would surely not approve  

But let's get back to the discussion.

There are many mysteries science cannot answer but I think we should not immediately come to the conclusion that there's a *supreme being* who's behind all this.  We must understand that although we're pretty advanced as a civilisation, there's still a lot we don't know.  And some questions may never be answered completely as there's just no way to collect enough evidence.

Scientists can't be sure how birds find their way along their migratory paths.  They think it's got something to do with the position of the sun but some birds are known to migrate even at night.  It could be they use the stars for navigation or the earth's magnetic field but no one really knows for sure. They are also uncertain how turtles and many other species of fish find their way, thousands of miles through the ocean, back to the place of birth.  
But what we know is that, with many aspects of their lives, animals do not need to "learn" like we do.  They inherit knowledge by instinct.  In other words, they're born with it.  We as humans have knowledge through instinct too but our "instinct library" is somewhat limited when compared to most other animals.

As for your friend, Debbie, I've heard many such stories too but without proper documentation and examination, it's hard to tell if she actually recovered from cancer by the methods you described.  We know, however, that fasting helps and experiments have proved that it can, under certain circumstances, prolong life.  All the methods you described (meditation, prayer and fasting) does not necessarily prove there's a supreme being.  Rather, it shows that with discipline and living a healthy life, one can overcome many illnesses.  I live in the far east and over here, many people swear by acupuncture, herbs, and holistic healing.  Western medicine works most of the time but when it can't heal a patient, he or she is likely to turn to other sources for help.  At no time, do we think there's a supreme being when western medicine fails.  

Scientists can't answer every question but at least, I know they are honest when they say "We don't know" or "We are uncertain".  Most religions offer answers to the mysteries of life but they want you to accept them on blind faith.  That I cannot stomach.

I do admit I don't go actively seeking out "God".  It's not like I don't want to but I can't.  I can't accept him if I don't think he's there in the first place. Just like everyone else, I wish he was there though.  But to wish for his presence does not mean he's there.  

It could be, like I said earlier, there's a designer but I don't think he would be interested in micro-managing the universe.  He wouldn't have the time for it  and it would, as far as he's concerned, serve little purpose.  

Without having to meditate or take up yoga, I find my senses just as sharpened and my understand of the universe clearer by seeing everything through the eyes of a skeptic.  I don't feel an overpowering sense of love for my fellow-man though but I have to admit I like you   Okay, let's do the bearhug when we meet  

It's impossible to come to a good conclusion if we argue over feelings.  Many claim to feel "his presence" but we skeptics think it's likely you ate too much pizza 

Loh K L


----------



## Yuribear

Hello my friend, your timebomb has just exploted!!! you have been busted 



			
				timebomb said:
			
		

> I do admit I don't go actively seeking out "God". It's not like I don't want to but I can't. I can't accept him if I don't think he's there in the first place.


Well... I guess that's it, isn't it? I have never met nor heard of a scientist who would start doing research, who would start clearing an incognita... without even leaving 1% of possibility to his postulate. *You want to... but you can't? * *i**f you want* *YOU CAN*, if you just give it 1% of possibility, you can start your research... and do not worry, you will not be bitten and your soul will not burn in hell... ha ha ha. Let's just say.. you don't want to and that all possibilites to His/Her existance are completely and absolutely hereby closed to you... and guess what??? you don't even HAVE TO do it!! *we like you all the same* and promise that we will not send the inquisition after you.

We will just go ahead enjoying the pizza... its a damn good PIZZA!!! but hey... there's salad if you want.

Just want more thing... I don't think this is a "counselling site" where we are expressing our feelings.... I believe we are sharing our experiences. These are difficult issues to discuss. Some people are more vulnerable than others so be careful out of courtesy. Nobody likes to feel judged and reprimended. Some will use some words like "feelings" because it is difficult to explain what goes within you and you should honour that.

Well... getting back to that bearhug.. my husband can hug your wife while I hug you... what about that?... but then we also know how to pronam... and do not think you are much older than we are... same gray hairs we grow...


----------



## Edwin

It appears that we are experiencing thread drift from "is there life after death?" to "is there a god?".  Of course, the first is possible without the latter and vice versa, but (aside from possibly a few individuals favored by divine grace) we won't know unless there is life after death. And even in that case we will have to wait till death to find out.

Meanwhile at most we can really have is a poll of opinions on the subject.
As for me, I abstain. 

Mientras tanto seguid vosotros abrazando.


----------



## timebomb

Edwin,

I would say we should let the thread drift.  It's impossible to discuss whether there's life after death without taking into account how or why we were here in the first place.  To find out where we will be going, we have to first know where we came from.  I'm sure the thread-starter wouldn't mind if we let the discussion drift a bit so unless he or she disapproves, I would say we should leave well alone.

Taking a poll would give us an idea how many believe we continue to exist after we die but it wouldn't really prove who's right or wrong.  In a way, it does not matter.  We're here to share our opinions and as long as we don't get offensive, there's no reason to close the thread.

My argument with Yuri is just beginning to get interesting so please let us be.

Loh K L


----------



## timebomb

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Hello my friend, your timebomb has just exploted!!! you have been busted



Have I been busted?  No, my friend.  I don't think so.

Like many people, I've always been curious about life and the so-called "meaning" of our existence.  When I was younger, I thought I can find the answers in the various religions.  And I did try.  But I've come to the conclusion that when people speak of discovering a "supreme being", they are just fulfilling a personal wish.  Some religions say that "if you seek, you will find".  Now, of course you will find something if you, in the first place, believe it's there.  It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.  

In order to be truly fair, we have to consider all options and one of which has to be "there's no God".  If you already believe he's there, then really there's no necessity to seek.  I'm still seeking although at the present moment, I have certain opinions.  I don't hold fast to them like they're the biblical truth.  I know I can be wrong but you have to show me proof before I change my stand.

As a skeptic, I ask for hard evidence.  I know, in arguments about God's existence, this is difficult, almost impossible in fact, to produce.  What we have to go on are "feelings" as felt by many people.  I don't want to disparage these feelings but they are not hard evidence, not as far as a skeptic is concerned.  Experiences with seeing ghosts or fairies don't count too unless you can produce good photographs.

We tend to distrust scientists and think they're ignoring certain evidence.  I can't speak for science but I would imagine scientists aren't much different from people like you and me.  They, more than others, would be fascinated by the mysteries of our universe too and it's highly likely that quite a few of them would have tried to prove that there's a "divine being".  I would bet though that most would give up after a while and realise that it's an impossible task.  The best science can do is find out how we came about and how it all began. Whether there's a God or not is something that cannot be proven and best left to ourselves, as individuals, to decide.  

It's been interesting, this conversation.  I hope I didn't offend anyone.  A skeptic is less likely to take offence if you disagree with him because he knows he can be wrong.  So go ahead, prove me wrong.  Make my day  

Loh K L


----------



## maxiogee

I have added my own emphasis to your words for elucidation....



			
				timebomb said:
			
		

> we have to consider all options and _*one of which has to be "there's no God"*_.
> I'm still seeking although at the present moment, _*I have certain opinions*_.
> I know I can be wrong but you have to _*show me proof*_ before I change my stand.
> As a skeptic, I ask for hard evidence.  I know, in arguments about God's existence, _*this is difficult, almost impossible in fact, to produce*_.
> Whether there's a God or not _*is something that cannot be proven*_ and best left to ourselves, as individuals, to decide.
> So go ahead, _*prove me wrong*_.  Make my day



So - One of the options has to be there's not God. You're still seeking, but you demand proof. Proof is difficult or almost impossible to produce. Proof cannot be provided. Give you proof.

You've already made up your mind, but you won't admit it!


----------



## cuchuflete

Some things have to be believed to be seen.


----------



## la reine victoria

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Some things have to be believed to be seen.


 


How profoundly wise!  



La Reine V


----------



## Yuribear

Loh, my friend, first of all I hope you realize that I am just playing with you. When I write to you it is with most love and respect, and in a playful manner, but unfortunately you cannot see my body language on these postings.... only the available smilies.

I do coincide with you in your early research, and I had the incredible opportunity of having friends of all religions, so I could study them all with them. Though I didn’t feel attracted to one in particular for it always put me off the fact that many “preached something but acted otherwise”, the only difference is that I never gave up. 

You say:
_*  ... you will find something if you, in the first place, believe it's there. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.*_

Yep! Do you think many of the inventors and discoverers would have found something at all if they didn’t believe that there could be at least a possibility that what they proposed could exist or be true? No, they would have stayed at home and we will still live in the dark ages, with candles and NO INTERNET to have this dialogue!!

You say:
_* In order to be truly fair, we have to consider all options and one of which has to be "there's no God". If you already believe he's there, then really there's no necessity to seek. I'm still seeking although at the present moment, I have certain opinions. I don't hold fast to them like they're the biblical truth. I know I can be wrong but you have to show me proof before I change my stand.*_

Good for you... at least then you are open to the possibility that maybe, somewhere, out or in there, God might exist....... however my dear, I cannot prove it to you in the way you ask me... what do you think I am ...God????  ha ha ha.... I for many years was “a hard bone to chew” like you, (that is why I like you)... but I could only undertake that research for myself. How can I proof to you the smell of a rose? The taste of a jackfruit? The incredible tsunami of love within??  Bligh me!!!!   I tried the recipe proposed by yoga.... only to find out that little by little I am getting there. I am not saying that you should take yoga... but hey, you will have to do your own work and your own research. 

God as* I perceive *it is not a man with a whip, judging people and sending them to burn in hell, nor a picky manager of people’s business..... Geez... I would be out of my mind to venerate such a tyrant!!! HeSheIt, is something far more subtle... with so many manifestations, with so many forms, and formless manifestations. And realize I am talking about PERCEPTION not “feeling” or “wishful thinking”. This... I had proven to myself... but I am so sorry.... I wish I was an avatar to touch you and give you the experience of God within.

I am not trying to convince you, all I am saying, it that the methodology to follow in the realms of spirit are different than the ones used in the physical world. 

...and finally but not least.... I do not distrust scientists, it would be like spitting to the air only to have it fell down on my head!!! I am surrounded by scientists.... and I know several that the more they do research the more they are convinced about the existence of God. One famous one (not that I knew him personally), Einstein... who’s favorite saying was... “God does not play dice with nature.”  Was a firm believer of God, go read his writings! Did he prove to the world the existence of God? No, but he prove it to himself!


----------



## Edwin

Yuribear said:
			
		

> One famous one (not that I knew him personally), Einstein... who’s favorite saying was... “God does not play dice with nature.”  Was a firm believer of God, go read his writings! Did he prove to the world the existence of God? No, but he prove it to himself!



It is important to realize that first of all what you say about Einstein is very likely untrue, but even if true, be aware that Einstein was wrong about some things. 

Apparently there is a  battle going on in some circles concerning Einstein's convictions.  Here are some quotations (all copied from various sites on the web) which appear to imply that Einstein was at heart an agnostic. As for his statement "God does not play dice with nature", apparently what he really said was in a 1926 letter to Max Born. Einstein wrote:



> Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the Old One. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice.



To this, Bohr, who sparred with Einstein on quantum theory, retorted, "Stop telling God what He must do!" I think it is clear that the references to god in this correspondence are tongue-in-cheek. 

From a letter written by Einstein in English, dated March 24, 1954:



> "*It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.* If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."



 Letter to Edgar Meyer, a colleague, January 2, 1915 Source: Robert Schulmann



> "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."


----------



## Yuribear

Dear Edwin.... ha ha ha... well, that is not the point really, you wise guy. 

What I meant is that even within the scientific community there are some for whom God is a reality. I do admit I am not a follower or an expert in Einstein... I admit I did not go to the primary source, but totally relied on what a friend of mine a Ph.D. in organic chemistry loves to quote when he gets all wrapped up in his research.

Still.. the point remains that God will not be proven in a test tube, but by other means. Whether you are interested in doing your own research, it is up to you...... in Spanish we have a saying... "no hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver"..... (there isn't a worse blindman than the one who does not want to see"). 

As I have said before... there is diversity in all planes... why should we all think the same, do the same, believe the same, like the same things??? How boring!! We are sharing our experiences, if you have none, if you want none... would that automatically nullify mine???   at least I know that if I get stuck with math  I can come crawling for your help... wouldn't I?


----------



## Edwin

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Dear Edwin.... ha ha ha... well, that is not the point really, you wise guy.



Dear Yuribear,

I friend told me once, years ago, when we were preparing arguments for a fight in a faculty meeting: Don't make any weak or doubtful arguments. Since they, the opposition, will only attack our weakest points. 

We made only strong, undeniable arguments. So what did the opposition do? They attacked the weak arguments that we didn't present!  No se puede ganar. 

--Edwin


----------



## timebomb

maxiogee said:
			
		

> You've already made up your mind, but you won't admit it!



I don't know if I should feel flattered or upset that someone has taken the trouble to summarise all my posts into a few sentences.  Whatever.......

When I wrote "prove me wrong", I meant "prove that I've been wrong" and not "prove to me that there's a God".

Satisfied?

Loh K L


----------



## timebomb

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Loh, my friend, first of all I hope you realize that I am just playing with you. When I write to you it is with most love and respect, and in a playful manner, but unfortunately you cannot see my body language on these postings.... only the available smilies.


Dear Yuri,

Although I can't see your body language, I'm well aware of what you're doing or trying to do.  We're having an argument but we both know we probably won't be able to change the other's point of view.  But we still continue to drive home our points because the more we argued, the better we understand each other.  I have the utmost respect for you too but I won't say love.  I think that's a word used too often and too lightly.  I like you though and that is as far as it goes  

I've always been suspicious when someone tells me "I must first believe before I can see".  Why so, you ask?  It's because I live in a country where people see ghosts all the time.  I've never seen one myself and I've always thought that's because I don't believe in their existence.  So, is God the same as a ghost?  Do we see him only when we believe?

Anyway, l like to tell you this ghost story.

In Singapore, many households have live-in maids.  They come from countries across Asia, mostly the Phillippines, Sri Lanka and Indonesia.  My first maid was from Thailand.  She came to work for me several years ago, not long after my father died.  She slept in my parent's bedroom and although it wasn't the same bed, the one she slept on is in the same position as the one my late father slept.

About 4 months after she arrived, we were looking at the family album and although my maid has never seen my father before, she was able to identify him from his picture in the album.  I was puzzled how she knew so I asked.  And she said it's because she has seen my late father many times in the middle of the night, standing at the foot of her bed.  When she said she saw my late father, she said it without a trace of fear.  If you know the Thais, they think it's normal to see ghosts all the time.  

It could be my maid made an educated guess.  After all, it's a family album and anyone with a picture there would be someone close to me.  Or she saw the resemblance and knew we were "father and son".  But there was no reason for my maid to lie and during the 4 years she worked for me, I never had a reason to believe she was lying.

If you ask a Thai, I'm quite sure he or she will tell you that there's a life after death.  But I'm still unconvinced.  The skeptic in me says there must be better evidence.  If ghosts appear so often, surely someone would have irrefutable photographs.  Or could it be, you have to first believe before they can appear in a picture?

Loh K L


----------



## la reine victoria

> timebomb.
> Anyway, l like to tell you this ghost story.
> 
> If you ask a Thai, I'm quite sure he or she will tell you that there's a life after death. But I'm still unconvinced. The skeptic in me says there must be better evidence. If ghosts appear so often, surely someone would have irrefutable photographs. Or could it be, you have to first believe before they can appear in a picture?


 


Believe me, Timebomb, ghosts do exist. I have met several during my life, not just on my own but together with other people. I have the ghost of a cat in my old cottage. Not so long ago I was in my bathroom (almost in the dark) when it appeared as a silhouette. Thinking it was my own cat I reached out to stroke it. It had no physical substance and vanished as soon as I 'touched' it. My cottage was built in 1856 and was originally a bakery and shop. I like to think that my ghost friend is one the the cats which was kept here by the baker, as a mouse catcher.

My own cat is very aware of the feline ghost. Sometimes it seems to bother her, other times not. I think she regards it as an intruder in her territory.

As for photographic evidence. Have a google and draw your own conclusions.


La Reine V


----------



## timebomb

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Believe me, Timebomb, ghosts do exist.


Besides the ghosts of animals, have you seen ghosts of people, LRV?  If you have, have you ever seen a ghost of someone you know?  I'm curious to know how ghosts would look like.  Please describe them to me.  Are they like what were shown in the "Sixth Sense" movie, just normal dead people?  Do they appear only in silhouettes or are they 3-dimensional?  Do their faces show emotion?  Have you ever tried speaking to one?  Do they hang around very long or do they just appear and disappear in a puff of smoke, so to speak?  

You seem to have no fear when you speak of seeing ghosts.  That's pretty unusual, I must say.  A Singaporean would usually be terrified if he saw one.  I would   But that's probably because our ghosts tend to be very frightening.  Usually, if it's a female ghost, she will have long black hair, long nails and appear all in white.  If it's a man ghost, his tongue will be sticking out and blood will be flowing from his eyes.  Sometimes, he will even be seen carrying his own head under his arm.

I've seen plenty of ghost pictures by googling but so far, none are really convincing.  There's always a suspicion the picture is a work of a prankster.  I would like to hear an eye-witness account, if it's not too much trouble to you, LRV.  Thanks.

Loh K L


----------



## la reine victoria

timebomb said:
			
		

> Besides the ghosts of animals, have you seen ghosts of people, LRV? If you have, have you ever seen a ghost of someone you know? I'm curious to know how ghosts would look like. Please describe them to me. Are they like what were shown in the "Sixth Sense" movie, just normal dead people? Do they appear only in silhouettes or are they 3-dimensional? Do their faces show emotion? Have you ever tried speaking to one? Do they hang around very long or do they just appear and disappear in a puff of smoke, so to speak?
> 
> You seem to have no fear when you speak of seeing ghosts. That's pretty unusual, I must say. A Singaporean would usually be terrified if he saw one. I would  But that's probably because our ghosts tend to be very frightening. Usually, if it's a female ghost, she will have long black hair, long nails and appear all in white. If it's a man ghost, his tongue will be sticking out and blood will be flowing from his eyes. Sometimes, he will even be seen carrying his own head under his arm.
> 
> I've seen plenty of ghost pictures by googling but so far, none are really convincing. There's always a suspicion the picture is a work of a prankster. I would like to hear an eye-witness account, if it's not too much trouble to you, LRV. Thanks.
> 
> Loh K L


 

I'm going to start a new thread on 'ghosts' Timebomb, since it's a topic in its own right.  I'm sure many of our forer@s will have some interesting stories to tell.  I'll mention my experiences there.

Haven't time to do it right now.  Perhaps you'd like to start it off? 

La Reine V


----------



## timebomb

Very well then, I will.

Loh K L


----------



## Maria Juanita

Edwin said:
			
		

> Apparently there is a  battle going on in some circles concerning Einstein's convictions.  Here are some quotations (all copied from various sites on the web) which appear to imply that Einstein was at heart an agnostic.  the references to god in this correspondence are tongue-in-cheek.




Curious the case of Einstein, writer E. Sabato and many other men who have followed science and reach to an agnostic position.


----------



## Ana Raquel

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Some things have to be believed to be seen.


Hi Cuchuflete, 
could you give an example of those things?


----------



## hopefully

Dear Ampurdan, 

You originally posted : 
_"Memories are stored in the body, as far as you are not able to make a backup of it, this illusion of mind will not continue into another conscience" ,_    and then 
_" I think it would be better to behave to maximize our happiness in this World, regardless what might happen in an afterlife (for me, very unlikely to be)."_
* *
*Well,  I have been very lucky to come across with this interesting forum and after reading once and again all valuable opinions I must say that yours have deeply and sincerely touch my  concience…. And all because of your youthfulness !! … You know why?  …. Five years and seven months ago my beloved elder son (22 years old) died in a car accident …. Sorry for writing my beloved elder son ,  I should better say Our beloved son for he is my husband’s son also  and my younger  son’s brother too!!    Imagine for a while how distressing, horrible and painfull experience for all of us …. We still can’t believe he left us and that we will never embrace his body and hear his charming laughter that could fill the empty and silent  rooms of our home now,  and neither have the chance of seeing all his expectations and dreams become true !! …. ..   If it wasn’t for our hopes and faith in an afterlife we’d better die  and bid goodbye to this unfair world that allows irresponsible drivers go on killing people all over the countries.  Instead of that we do  know our son lives eternally in a heavenly and calm  place where nothing will hurt him never, never again for God has rescued him from being a handicapped or disabled person,  and received him in His Kingdom…… It would take lot of time to write down our testimony of our son’s spiritual life; let’s just say that we do feel  he  is with us, in our hearts and  thoughts and  that he intercedes  before God  in order we can find comfort and accept to live everyday with optimism and joy for we know there will come the time  when we’ll meet again !!!  …  Right now I can feel his voice saying:  “Mother, tell people I’m alive !!, not in my old flesh and blood  body but in an spiritual essence!! .. I’m able to walk and run, play my guitar,  talk  to my friends and help them whenever they ask me to,  for I’m in God’s company !! “  *
*Ampurdan, * “maximize your happiness in this world” as you say, but also *think  about the marvellous experience of having the opportunity to follow on sharing it with your parents and family in an afterlife !!   *
** 
*Have a nice day,*
** 
* ***


----------



## Zahab

i believe that there is continuity of our live in a different escenarium, for me is so boring to live only 70 or 80 years, when my life ends in this world, i am sure that a new adventure will begin and i will be happy for all the eternity.

pd: i beleive in eternity.
thank you.


----------



## Ana Raquel

Yo quiero saber, conocer ejemplos de esto que dijo cuchuflete, 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *cuchuflete*
_Some things have to be believed to be seen._
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Ana Raquel*
_Hi Cuchuflete, _
_could you give an example of those things?_


----------



## Estiben

This may have been said before in other words, but here's my point of view. 

Life on Earth is a wild ride, like at a carnival. You can't talk to anyone who has finished the ride, and you can only ride once. You start it with no experience at all, and you are shown how to manage it by people who have limited experience. You can seldom see what is coming next. By the time you really learn all the twists and turns, you are too beat-up to handle it well, and shortly thereafter the ride is over. Nobody wants the ride to end, but everyone knows it must.

Part of the fun of the ride is not knowing how it is going to develop, where it is going to wind up, or when it will end. It's frightening and stressful, but would you really want it to be all mapped out, calm and boring?  I don't know what the next trip is going to be like, but this seems likely: if I can't enjoy this crazy ride, I won't be able to master the next one. 

Thank you, all my brothers and sisters, for your thought-provoking and heartfelt input.


----------



## cute angel

We're muslims and we are beleiving in that.
After death, there is a hereafter where people judg either to hell or to heaven it depends on his behiveours. 
If we ask this question: why God creates us ?
We'll say that we must do something in our life to get the result later on.
There is a hell & heaven and we have allot of stories that prouve this truth
in the quran we have the story of the inhabitant of the cave who returned to life after 300 years


----------



## don maico

cute angel said:


> we 're muslims and we are beleiving in that
> after  death there is a hereafter where people judg either to hell or to heaven it depends on his behiveours
> if we ask this question
> why God creates us?
> we'll say that we must do something in our life to get the result later on
> there is a hell & heaven and we have allot of stories that prouve this truth
> in the quran we have the story of the inhabitant of the cave who returned to life after 300 years


Trouble with the hell part is that a bad person doesn get a chance to redeem himself. at least with Budhism he gets several chances which take  the form of  new incarnations.


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

Moderator Note:  If you return to the first post, you will see that the question of God's existence is not a reference point for this discussion.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

IMO life after death is rather misleading as it gives the impression (to me at least) that we will simply exchange this setting for another one. I do not hold that view. I do believe however there is _existence_ after death i.e. the spirit is released to take another form.


----------



## maxiogee

Okay, on-topic approach to this.

Is there life after death?


Why should there be?
    and
Has anyone any evidence that there might be?


----------



## Sallyb36

I don't believe that there is life after death.  I always wonder why some people seem so keen to believe that there is, as if this life that we have isn't good enough for them, they are waiting for something better!


----------



## Cereth

different focus Maxiogee...
Yes there is Life after death...
Why should not?

The highest evidence of such is that things are so good there nobody wants to return... 
Maybe he have seen the answer on dreams but narrow minded people consider everything is here...whatta waste of spirit...


----------



## maxiogee

Cereth said:


> different focus Maxiogee...
> Yes there is Life after death...p



What evidence have you support that there is a Life after death.

At death the bpdy's processes shut down - sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.
Bodies have heen carefully weighed at death - it appears that nothing escapes.
When we die - we die totally.




> The highest evidence of such is that things are so good there nobody wants to return...


this presupposes....
a) a lfe somewhere.
b) a newborn version of 'us' there - made again from 'dust'
c) a memory of ''here'
  c1)a desire to get here,
  c2)an ability to get here


Consider a tribe living by a mighty and sacred river.
They lose members of the to various causes - bears attack and devour them - always leaving remains
Some of the local berries are poisonous ar certain time of years
Illnesses takes away the infirm - again, the remains are left,
But
The unlucky ones who fall into the river are never seen again.
The chiefs and the elders declare that they have been reborn in then world where bears do not roam, where illness has nbeen banished and where all the berries are edible

It's all the wishful thinking of the elders and the chiefs to placate the grieving loved ones - none of them has ever seen past the waterfall.


So I would rephrase your statement
I earnestly desire to believe there is Life after death...

The highest evidence of such is that things are so good there nobody wants to return... 

What part of them has gone there? 
Their _memories_ - no, these are neural links within our brains and did with it
Their _Love for another_ in this live - Not very likely as they may have loved someone who doesn't have the entry-requirement
Their _spirits_  - ouch. Explain to me what a person's Spirit is and we'll go on from there.

People mock athiests for believing in an negative.
I would put it to you that you have created a place where none exists, and for which no evidence and that you are resting your future happiness on
gaining admissiom to theis place - when the rules of admission are many and varied, and all have been writted down by humans, Humans with an ulterior motive.


----------



## RIU

Wow Max, 

I'm surprised... Do you really think that after a life working hard, illness, suffering, preocupations, pain, etc. when you die, _that's all folks_?

It's sad.


----------



## invictaspirit

RIU said:


> Wow Max,
> 
> I'm surprised... Do you really think that after a life working hard, illness, suffering, preocupations, pain, etc. when you die, _that's all folks_?
> 
> It's sad.


 
 

It would be such a ghastly, grotesque waste of time.

But it's pointless even discussing it, really. These things are a matter of *faith.* And faith, including mine, is often utterly blind. I doubt that evidence, as we understand it, comes into it.

If anyone is interested, I believe I have had various visitations from my dead grandmother. The most dramatic was when I was driving on the M4 in 1990 in Wiltshire. I saw a figure on the hard shoulder. As I neared the figure, I saw with a mixture of fascination and horror that it was my late grandmother. I braked hard and pulled into the shoulder. My grandmother turned her head and caught my eye as I passed her and the car skidded to a halt. When I had got the car under control and then stopped, my grandmother (who was now behind the car) smiled at me and then looked sad and pointed up the motorway. I looked, and at that moment, a truck which had I not stopped would have been level with me, being passed by me, in the slow lane suddenly slewed to the right across three lanes, bounced off the crash-barrier, and then jack-knifed across the road. Mercifully the motorway was very quiet and no-one was killed. The truck driver even was fine (he had fallen asleep). But I probably would have been had I not stopped in horror to get a better look at a figure I believed to me my gran.

I didn't make this up. I wasn't drunk. I wasn't asleep. I quite clearly, soberly and lucidly remember it and was reflecting on it long before mild shock set in. I cannot account for it. I present no evidence for it. But it did happen. This and other less drama-rama incidents have convinced me in an entirely quiet, personal and un-evangelistic way that my grandmother, at least, is corporeally dead but seems to exist somehow, somewhere.  Of course, I _wish_ this to be the case.  But not, in my opinion, so much so as to have such lucid delusions about it.


----------



## la reine victoria

What a wonderful post, Invictaspirit, and God bless your Gran who is obviously looking after you.

I have a great deal of evidence that our spirits survive death but am disinclined to write about it.

No-one can prove that there is life after death.  We shall all know when we die.

I have a feeling that atheists are in for a big surprise!

I see "ghosts" all the time.  Some are known to me, others are total strangers.  





LRV


----------



## germinal

Of course there is life after death - the only problem is that it won't be our life.   It will be the life of who or whatever lives on after us until they die leaving others to carry it on.   

You have the consolation that your atoms will be recycled and some may be used again in some part of the biosphere.   

.


----------



## maxiogee

RIU said:


> It would be such a ghastly, grotesque waste of time.
> 
> But it's pointless even discussing it, really.
> These things are a matter of *faith.*







			
				invictaspirit said:
			
		

> If anyone is interested, I believe I have had various visitations from my dead grandmother.





la reine victoria said:


> What a wonderful post, Invictaspirit, and God bless your Gran whois obviously looking after you.


Those of you who know me anyway well would put me foursquare behind Hamlet when he says 
HAMLET:  And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy​.

I am not here to go into the e-th degree of anyone's relationships, but suffice to say that I am sceptic - this even to those what happened to be.  There are umpteen things we do not yet go half the way towards explaining scientically - that does not mean that they never shall be explained to the satisfaction of the human mind.

I Don't belittle anyone's experiences but neither do I aggrandize them - they await research.




			
				la reine victoria said:
			
		

> What a wonderful post, Invictaspirit, and God bless your Gran who is obviously looking after you.
> 
> I have a great deal of evidence that our spirits survive death but am disinclined to write about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> invictaspirit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No-one can prove that there is life after death. We shall all know when we die.
> 
> I have a feeling that atheists are in for a big surprise!
Click to expand...

As there will be neither a place for the recently-deceased to assemple, nor a host to welcome them, and in fact no brain/soul to register the absences of these things, I thinks there shall be no surprise, for anyone.


----------



## Shauneyzboyz

Who's to say that dying isn't simply a different way of living?


----------



## la reine victoria

germinal said:


> Of course there is life after death - the only problem is that it won't be our life. It will be the life of who or whatever lives on after us until they die leaving others to carry it on.
> 
> You have the consolation that your atoms will be recycled and some may be used again in some part of the biosphere.
> 
> .


 

What about a childless spinster who dies, with no relatives?

I personally don't need any consolation as to what will happen to my atoms.  My physical body (which will be cremated) and my soul (that which makes me "me") are two separate entities.  I believe that my soul came from God and that, at death, it will return to him.  My soul may have to pass through many different levels, learning as it goes, until it finally reaches the divine Creator.  What a thought!  

My philosophy is a mish-mash of Biblical scripture peppered with a goodly dose of Eastern philosophy.  Putting that to one side, I do receive direct communications from this person we call "God". 

Most us, I imagine, would like to know that we enter a new dimension after death.  There are so many questions which cannot be answered here on Earth.  Hopefully we will move on, in spirit, to a place where our questions will be answered.

My body will one day die but I am convinced that my soul will live on.



LRV


----------



## la reine victoria

> n As there will be neither a place for the recently-deceased to assemble, nor a host to welcome them, and in fact no briain/sould brain/soul to register the absences of these things, I thinks there shall be no surprise, for anyone.


 


I know your thoughts about God, Tony.  And I know as much about you as you have chosen to reveal via our PM friendship.

How do you explain this?

Many years ago now, my sister-in-law's little brother (aged 10) was seriously ill.  He lay in a coma for several weeks.  When he was well he had a favourite aunt.  She died when he was aged 8.

The hospital summoned the family to the bedside saying that the little lad was nearing death.  They were keeping watch over him.

Suddenly, to their great surprise, he awoke from his coma and smiled broadly.  He stretched out his arms and said, "I'm coming with you Aunty!"  These were his last words as he passed away.

This helped the family through an extremely difficult time.  They were convinced that his beloved Aunt had come to take him on his journey to the world of spirit.

Strange, but true.

It's good to know that we can share our beliefs and experiences here without being mocked by those who disagree.



LRV


----------



## Bonjules

la reine... said:
			
		

> It's good to know that we can share our beliefs and experiences here without being mocked by those who disagree.
> 
> LRV


 
LRV, of course it makes it very hard to mock you
when you bring up sad stories of children in your family dying. Who wants to be cruel like that; at the same
time I feel a bit strange about you laying that on everyone and then thanking everybody (in advance )
for not mocking you (after you make sure they possibly can't).
The thing is, when people get into topics of pure faith
 or claim direct lines to God they certainly make themselves legitimate targets of sarcasm and mockery.
If you'd rather not deal with that, maybe this is not the best place.


----------



## Random1

If there was immortal life after death, meaning no end to existence, wouldn't there also have to be no beginning too?


----------



## cuchuflete

Random1 said:


> If there was immortal life after death, meaning no end to existence, wouldn't there also have to be no beginning too?




Sssssshh!  A question as good as this would make the dead turn over in their graves, trouble the reincarnated, and maybe even awaken a few of the living.


----------



## Shauneyzboyz

Random1 said:


> If there was immortal life after death, meaning no end to existence, wouldn't there also have to be no beginning too?



How do you know there was a beginning?


----------



## cuchuflete

Shauneyzboyz said:


> How do you know there was a beginning?



Welcome to the metaphysical Mobius strip!  Existence is like a CD thread about the supernatural or anything religious.  The questions have been around for all eternity, and never get answered. And never will.  

Of course most people "Know" the answer before they join the fun.


----------



## Random1

I am considering the beginning when you are born. Christianity nor Judaism nor Islam believes in reincarnation, so your life on earth is your only life. They also do not believe in people coming back from heaven or hell, so the 'soul' before you are born cannot return to earth in your physical self.


----------



## Bonjules

Very well said, Cuchu.
Although the reincarnated will of course claim it's not
not exactly a total continuation, but a different level..
But ,I also ask myself can we really approach this discussion entirely rationally or shall we stick to the kind of spirits that I had deleted out of piety (but which LRV quoted so generously without permission?)
The question of rationality brings us to fazionman, though. I wonder if he actually thought that through:
You see, the REAL reason we have to die is not that they
have not come up with a cure for cancer yet or that the
bioengineers haven't tinkered yet sufficiently successfully with 'etenrnal life'
It is, that by the age of 6o or 7o we already know too much(sometimes much earlier even)
Can you really imagine growing up Knowing 
what your fellow man can do to you? The suicide rate would be close to 100%, no doubt.


----------



## Random1

> Can you really imagine growing up  Knowing already
> what your fellow man can do to you? The suicide rate would be close to 100%, no doubt.


Sorry if this is considered a little bit off topic, but I have often thought of this, only in terms of heaven. You will eventually know everything, will eventually have done everything if you never die in heaven; then what? Suicide is not an option as 1. It is considered a sin, and 2. You are immortal, you wont die again. An endless boredom.


----------



## Shauneyzboyz

Random1 said:


> I am considering the beginning when you are born.



What do I know of my birth?  I've never been there! 

There are two events in the existence of human that he can never go to: his own death...and his own birth.

All right, I'm done with preaching Freud for now.


----------



## cuchuflete

Random1 said:


> Suicide is not an option as 1. It is considered a sin, By those who "Know" with certainty the answers to all questions about the potential existence of an afterlife.....  That's an argument that flies up its own...ermm...you know.     and 2. You are immortal, you wont die again.   This presupposes that we "Know" that there are only two states of being, the corporeal and an undefined, amorphous 'eternal state'.  I think some empirical research would be needed to verify if there is just one such state, or if there are a limitless number of varieties.  On that topic, are there numbers in heaven?  Base ten system or base six or binary?  An endless boredom.  As boring as nothingness?


 Read Mark Twain's Letters From the Earth for additional commentary on the nature of eternal celestial music making.  

I really only have one pressing concern about the afterlife.
For the past few months, these forums have been invaded, many times each day, by spammers claiming Nigerian addresses, the best prices on cell phones and ipods, and pristine business credentials.  We rush to ban them and delete their spam.  If there is an afterlife, will it too have spammers?  Suppose they are good, devout adherents of the 'ism', 'ity', 'am' or other religious type, just trying hard to feed their families?  Will I have to put up with them in heaven?

No.  You guessed the answer already.  I will be elsewhere, stoking the eternal ovens that power the everlasting rainbows.

Does it rain in the afterlife?  Are the bathrooms clean?


----------



## timebomb

I don't mean to mock but I wish those who claim to see ghosts all the time would provide us with some hard evidence of their sightings.  Is it that difficult to produce a photograph of a ghost if you can see them often?  Better still, why not show us a video?  

I like to believe there's life after death.  If you can prove ghosts exist - to me, it would mean a part of us lives on after we die.  So please, show me some hard evidence.  Talk is cheap.


----------



## Estiben

Random1 said:


> You will eventually know everything, will eventually have done everything if you never die in heaven; then what?  . . . An endless boredom.



Excuse me, but I think you are showing a lack of imagination. Yes, I know forever is a long time, but infinity is a big place! After any amount of time you can conceive of, you will have only scratched the surface of what there is to know. I realize this does not address the question of the existence af an afterlife. I am just saying that boredom wouldn't be a problem. I can imagine all kinds of exciting possibilities.

This was on a sign I saw in a shop in Missouri: My how time flies! Maybe eternity won't seem so long, after all.


----------



## invictaspirit

The thing that always amuses me about this debate, and is currently amusing me about this thread, is that it makes people so angry.  

You get either open anger and sarcasm, or feel the restrained anger behind more polite posts.  

Who cares whether or not there is life after death?  If there isn't, no-one's going to suffer the lack of it.  If there is, it'll be a pleasant surprise or confirmation of a belief.

I don't mind chipping in my personal view once, which I did.  But once you've done that, I can't see the point of endless yacking about it.  None of us knows, none of us can produce evidence. We're all baying at the moon.


----------



## timebomb

invictaspirit said:


> None of us knows, none of us can produce evidence. We're all baying at the moon.


A photograph or as I've said earlier, a video of a ghost would be evidence enough that something or a part of us lives on after we die.  If I can see ghosts and they appear to me often, I'll certainly think about setting up cameras to get pictures of them.  Or I'll carry a camera with me all the time.


----------



## maxiogee

la reine victoria said:


> How do you explain this?


The same way I explain brain-surgery - I don't. I'm not an expert, just a sceptic. 
If you want a 'real' explanation I would advise you ask a psychologist.

But if you really want my musings on it - here goes.

Young man has a favoured aunt who dies.
If the family is religious they probably tell him he will see her again, in heaven, when he dies - possibly consoling his anguish at the loss of his 'great friend' (my son had an aunt like that, I can imagine what I would have had to say to try to console him had she died.)

Young man gets seriously ill.
Family are gathered - so, even if he hasn't heard the words "he's going to die" he knows things aren't well.
He's in a coma - who knows that people say when they think the patient cannot hear - muffled conversations are often not-as-muffled as they ought to be.
Anyway, the young man knows he's seriously ill, and is well able to remember that he'll meet his aunt when he dies. She may well be his only solid association with death.​



> It's good to know that we can share our beliefs and experiences here without being mocked by those who disagree.


Some of us get mocked regularly, or haven't you noticed?

Like the poor, the mockers and begrudgers are always with us.


----------



## germinal

cuchuflete said:


> Read Mark Twain's Letters From the Earth for additional commentary on the nature of eternal celestial music making.
> 
> I really only have one pressing concern about the afterlife.
> For the past few months, these forums have been invaded, many times each day, by spammers claiming Nigerian addresses, the best prices on cell phones and ipods, and pristine business credentials. We rush to ban them and delete their spam. If there is an afterlife, will it too have spammers? Suppose they are good, devout adherents of the 'ism', 'ity', 'am' or other religious type, just trying hard to feed their families? Will I have to put up with them in heaven?
> 
> No. You guessed the answer already. I will be elsewhere, stoking the eternal ovens that power the everlasting rainbows.
> 
> Does it rain in the afterlife? Are the bathrooms clean?


 
Mock not miserable worm - lest ye be smitten with boils in a profound place.  

.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

On reflection, I say why worry about life after death when most people don't know how to make use of the one they have now.


----------



## TRG

How interesting!

Being atheistic, I have no belief in god or an afterlife, but I am open to the idea of either. For it to happen a spiritual being would have to make itself known to me in a fairly clear way. As a child I was taught to believe in these things, but it simply has never been there. I have questions just like everyone, but no answers. Somewhat interestingly, when I was young the thought that I would not live forever troubled me greatly. Now that I am close to 60, this is no longer such a concern. I feel like life in some ways is preparing me for the end of life. I do not fear it. I think part of the reason is that I have two grown children and I rather view them as my connection to immortality. I have no grandchildren yet, but I have the hope that through them part of me will go on, perhaps forever.

On the matter of going to heaven, in American politics I often hear this phrase when the legislators have some particularly daunting but necessary task in front of them: "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to go right now." The point being that people lack the courage of their convictions. I find it mostly funny, but a little thought provoking too. If the afterlife is so great, why aren't people more eager to get there?

Finally, here is my very short reading list of books I've read that realate to life after death. Some of you might enjoy them.

1. The Search for Bridey Murphy
2. Life After Life
3. The Physics of Immortality
4. The New Testement

p.s. Thanks to la reine V. for all her interesting posts.


----------



## AnotherStephen

TRG said:


> On the matter of going to heaven, in American politics I often hear this phrase when the legislators have some particularly daunting but necessary task in front of them: "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to go right now." The point being that people lack the courage of their convictions. I find it mostly funny, but a little thought provoking too. If the afterlife is so great, why aren't people more eager to get there?
> 
> .



But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of.

William Shakespeare (From Hamlet)

It's ok moderators. Mr Shakespeare is out of copyright.


----------



## TRG

Estiben said:


> Excuse me, but I think you are showing a lack of imagination. Yes, I know forever is a long time, but infinity is a big place! After any amount of time you can conceive of, you will have only scratched the surface of what there is to know. I realize this does not address the question of the existence af an afterlife. I am just saying that boredom wouldn't be a problem. I can imagine all kinds of exciting possibilities.
> 
> This was on a sign I saw in a shop in Missouri: My how time flies! Maybe eternity won't seem so long, after all.


 
I hope the moderators will indulge me just a little. When I saw this remark it reminded me of a line from a Woody Allen movie spoken by WA himself. "Eternity is a very long time, especially near the end."


----------



## maxiogee

Off course it's endless boredom - there's nowhere to go to to get yourself away from the boredom. The boredom which is going on is eternal, and the 'place' in which it is going on is limitless  - it may even be limitless in more than 20 dimensions.

-======
Anyway, for those who worry about getting into "heaven", I would suggest the following thought game.
Seán Citizen is alive here - and therefore we cannot be 'there' right now.
Angel X is 'alive' there now.
Seán Citizen dies and arrives in Heaven. We know he's dead, everything about him stopped functioning and he began to decay. We buried his remains.
Angel X is suddenly aware of Seán Citizen's 'living' presence in the throng…

Question 1 - Is Angel X aware of an time when Seán citizen wasn't in Heaven?

Maire Bean-an-Citizen dies sometime after and doesn't got to heaven.
All four of the children she and Seán had do get to heaven and greet their father, with one voice "Where's Mummy?"…

Question 2 - Will someone in Heaven 'miss' those they leave behind?

Question 3 - Will those who don't get to heaven be totally forgotten? Are we not meant to be reunited with those we love? Well, unfortunately some of us choose bad puppies to shower our love on. Is there a Granny Hitler looking for her favourite wee scamp of a grandson?


----------



## cuchuflete

There are people who cannot separate the idea of an afterlife from their beliefs in a heaven or both a heaven and a hell.

There are those who believe in life after death without hell, or without either heaven or hell.

There are those who calmly say, "I don't know."

There are some who declare that there is no afterlife.

And then...there are the humorless wretches who take anything but agreement with their own preferred answer—whatever it may be— as grounds for war, and try to prove the existence of hell by creating it here on earth.


----------



## Random1

> There are those who calmly say, "I don't know."


Which is what EVERYONE should be be saying.  It is just fun to theorize and debate.



> Excuse me, but I think you are showing a lack of imagination. Yes, I know forever is a long time, but infinity is a big place! After any amount of time you can conceive of, you will have only scratched the surface of what there is to know.


With an infinite amount of time to do a finite number of things, you will eventually do everything possible. Then what?


----------



## Estiben

Random1 said:


> Which is what EVERYONE should be be saying.  It is just fun to theorize and debate.
> 
> 
> With an infinite amount of time to do a finite number of things, you will eventually do everything possible. Then what?



Nuh uh. You're missing the point, Random1. How do you know there are a finite number of things? "Big fleas have little fleas / upon their backs to bite 'em. / Little fleas have lessor fleas, / and so ad infinitum." 
Jonathan Swift


----------



## Bonjules

maxiogee said:


> Hey, Maxi,
> don't they say 'Mockers shouldn't throw mocks in
> glass....'.and so on .....?
> 
> P.S. And what exactly would we be 'begrudging' now?


----------



## maxiogee

Bonjules said:


> Hey, Maxi,
> don't they say 'Mockers shouldn't throw mocks in
> glass....'.and so on .....?
> 
> P.S. And what exactly would we be 'begrudging' now?



Have I been throwing mocks?

I didn't say anyone was doing any begrudging, I just made mention that they are always with us.
"Begrudgers" are well-known in Ireland (if only for Brendan Behan's famous "f••k the begrudgers") - they've not got the wit to mock, but they've got the same urge.


----------



## AngelEyes

*Isn't it human nature to believe in something, even if that "something" is the belief that there is nothing beyond all of this?*


*Life after death and related topics such as reincarnation, time travel, astrology, extraterrestrial visitation, God...all these topics are our playthings on this earth. We can pick and choose what we want to explore and have fun with, or we can pick nothing at all.*


*We can also choose to love or we can choose to hate. We can decide to accept life as nothing more than whatever it is we're stuck with.*


*Or we can use our imagination to desire and conjure into our personal reality the romantic idea that this is really all nothing in the scheme of things. Because our lives are just the beginning, or the middle, or a little dot in the thread of our existence. There is so much more beyond what this all is, if only we dare to dream it so.*


*Life is a blip when compared to the entire journey. Maybe death is fun, or maybe death is the end. Maybe death is the real life and this life we live is the darkness. *


*It's all perception. It's all conjured reality. It's whatever we want it to be.That's why it's so important to choose wisely, and make it count.*


*The point is, fate hands us our destiny in the form of sickness, separation, success, riches, prosperity, loneliness, abundance, and loss. And then at the end of all that, death is a certainty.*


*But Life gives us a great gift. It offers us the choice. We get to choose what to believe in. We get to pick our toys and decide how much fun we want to have. We can live in possibility, or stagnate in the void of nothing.*


*I've never understood people who choose to believe that THIS is all there is. Why the limitation? Why the boring choice? Because choosing nothing as the outcome to living is boring! It's colorless and loveless. *


*I want flowers and sunshine and romance and eternity. I want a soul that flies freely through this universe. I want to become the music that inspires me and ingest the words that make those songs real.*


*I don't want to choose nothing. I don't want to choose endings that death promises in that belief system.*


*I want second chances that reincarnation gives me. I want forgiveness for all the crappy things I do from a God Who exists to give it to me.*


*I don't ever want to stop believing. I don't ever want to abandon my dreams. I've been given a wonderful gift: **to choose what goes on inside my heart, my soul, and my brain. In that world, no one can take away anything from me except me.*


*If you choose to choose nothing, then you're already dead.*


*I choose not to believe in death at all. I believe in Life, and its different forms of transformation.*





*AngelEyes*


----------



## Qcumber

One of the basic problems is what people mean by "life after death". Do they mean "life after life" is a duplicate of this world of ours or what? Nobody knows.


----------



## caballoschica

Qcumber said:


> One of the basic problems is what people mean by "life after death". Do they mean "life after life" is a duplicate of this world of ours or what? Nobody knows.



That is exactly how I feel.  No one knows what goes on after life.  No one will, unless they live to tell the tale, which is impossible unless, of course, you get some wizard to do necromancy on you and rise you from the dead.*  *I do not believe that witchcraft actually exists, but I love fantasy novels and the Harry Potter series. 

Also, I think fear of the unknown is what drives people to create, share, and believe stories about the afterlife.


----------



## gaer

AngelEyes said:


> *Isn't it human nature to believe in something, even if that "something" is the belief that there is nothing beyond all of this?*


You are merely saying that believing in nothing is the same as believing in something.

I don't think it is possible for the human mind to avoid making a choice in what it believes in—something, or nothing.


----------



## maxiogee

AngelEyes said:


> *Isn't it human nature to believe in something, even if that "something" is the belief that there is nothing beyond all of this?*


In as much as 'believing' is a human thing, then yes. But otherwise the sentence is meaningless.




> *Life is a blip when compared to the entire journey.*


Run that one by me slowly please - what 'entire journey'?




> *It's all perception. It's all conjured reality. It's whatever we want it to be.That's why it's so important to choose wisely, and make it count.*


…That sentence doesn't accord with the next …


> *The point is, fate hands us our destiny in the form of sickness, separation, success, riches, prosperity, loneliness, abundance, and loss. And then at the end of all that, death is a certainty.*


If fate hands us our destiny, then what will our 'choosing wisely' affect?




> *But Life gives us a great gift. It offers us the choice. We get to choose what to believe in.*


Belief tends to be passed on, generationally. YHad you been born in a different place the chances are that you would believe differently. What we believe is rarely a conscious choice.




> *I've never understood people who choose to believe that THIS is all there is. Why the limitation? *


Because there is no reason to believe otherwise. 
The reality of our existence would appear to be that we live and then we die. Purposelessly, aimlessly. To wish to believe otherwise shows a great unwillingness to accept our own insignificance and insubstantiality.




> *I want flowers and sunshine and romance and eternity. I want a soul that flies freely through this universe. I want to become the music that inspires me and ingest the words that make those songs real.*


As my mother used to say: "There's no harm in wanting."




> *I don't want to choose nothing. I don't want to choose endings that death promises in that belief system.*


I don't bleieve that the choice is ours to make.




> *I want second chances that reincarnation gives me. I want forgiveness for all the crappy things I do from a God Who exists to give it to me.*


We forgive ourselves - that is a much more powerful belief, and hugely liberating. It is internal and is the only true forgiveness.




> *If you choose to choose nothing, then you're already dead.*


If you refuse to accept death then you cannot be truly alive. Life only flourishes in the face of death.


----------



## don maico

Far better just to be an agnostic. At least that way one doesnt shut ones self off to the possibilty of life aftre or to an omniscient being. Atheists are after all just as blinkered and married to "certainty" as any loony religious person. They have their own creed called "thou shalt not believe because its all rubbish"
We habe no evidence of lifeafter or of God but we have no evidence against them either. Far better to live in the here and now and in as spiritual fashion as possible.


----------



## cuchuflete

I really enjoyed the optimism I found in reading AngelEyes' text.  I thought to myself, "She has  framed the question in a particular way, and then selected  the most appealing—to me, at least—of the possible alternatives."   

Then I read it all again, and while I still appreciate the positive outlook, and the generous spirt that caused her to share it, I found some of the statements unneccesarily limiting.  They offer  "good" and a "not so attractive" alternatives, while leaving out some others.




AngelEyes said:


> *Isn't it human nature to believe in something, even if that "something" is the belief that there is nothing beyond all of this?*


* There is at least one more--probably many more--alternative:  Examine the question, determine that there is insufficient persuasive evidence to lead one to accept the "something" or "nothing beyond" choices, and consciously decide to direct one's attention and energy elsewhere.*




> Life after death and related topics such as reincarnation, time travel, astrology, extraterrestrial visitation, God...all these topics are our playthings on this earth. We can pick and choose what we want to explore and have fun with, or we can pick nothing at all.


 *We can pick from a different list than the one above.  That is not at all the same as picking nothing at all.  My choices of playthings can be different from your choices of playthings.  That doesn't make mine null and void.  Mine may include things that don't matter at all to you.  That doesn't denigrate what is on your list or my own. *



> *We can decide to accept life as nothing more than whatever it is we're stuck with.*


* "Stuck with"?  Hmmmm...seems a little negative to me.  How about, "We can decide to accept life as whatever we are fortunate enough to have had befall us"?  *



> *Or we can use our imagination to desire and conjure into our personal reality the romantic idea that this is really all nothing in the scheme of things. *


*Sure, but what is "the sceme of things"?   Your scheme and Mary Smith's scheme and John Doe's scheme may or may not encompass the same questions,  so the answers selected may not lend themselves to easy or useful comparisons.  *




> *It's all perception. *


* With a touch or a bucketload of wishful thinking to steer it one way or another.  Most of us tend to believe in what our families, friends, colleagues believe in.  That's a comfortable path.
It is where we are led, from early childhood.  Some people wander off that path and explore others.
* 



> *I've never understood people who choose to believe that THIS is all there is. Why the limitation?
> 
> *


*If you haven't understood them, why call their perception, their choice of 'toys', a limitation?

*


> *
> **Why the boring choice? Because choosing nothing as the outcome to living is boring! It's colorless and loveless. *


*It may not be at all boring to other people. You have the choice to accept that there are other viewpoints you do not understand, or feel comfortable about, or choose to embrace, without having to characterize those as boring or colorless or loveless.  

I know people who do not believe in an afterlife, and live fully, vigorously, passionately, colorfully.  Their lives are full of love and excitement, and they touch other people deeply and beneficially.   I cannot imagine them calling another person anything negative just for holding a different view of death and what may come after it.  
They seem secure enough with their own belief systems that they feel no need to disparage somebody else's way of thinking, feeling, choosing.
* 



> *I want second chances that reincarnation gives me. I want ......*


* Surely there is nothing wrong with wanting.  Most beliefs are based on it.  
*


> *I don't ever want to stop believing. I don't ever want to abandon my dreams.*


* Here's some good news.  You don't have to stop believing or to abandon your dreams!*



> *If you choose to choose nothing, then you're already dead.*


*If by this you mean to say that anyone who has chosen to believe in different questions and and answers than suit you, then you have chosen to paint yourself as knowing as much as your creator, and you have chosen to declare other people's lives to be valueless, empty.   That is not a very loving or beautiful spiritual posture, is it?  *


I spent a lot of time with a dying relative. He had lived a long, full life, with the usual assortment of joys and heartaches, momentous events and trivialities.  When his death was close, I asked him if he believed there was an afterlife.

"Either I'll find out, or I won't," he replied. 


I haven't come across a better answer yet.


----------



## AngelEyes

*I would like to add a comment about my above post. Well, two comments, actually. Maybe by the time I'm done writing this, there'll be even more than that. LOL*

*First of all, my words are just that: an expression of how I view the subject of life after death. I would never presume to tell anybody else that they have to agree with me or not! Really.*

*Also, I am a firm believer in allowing everybody else to have their own dreams, opinions, and viewpoints. My thoughts that I shared were in no way meant to disparage or negate anybody else's beliefs, even if they don't agree with mine. A true-ism for me is that we all get to choose how and what we believe. *

*The one point that I DO disagree with is that we get our ultimate belief system from relatives, friends, co-workers, spouses...that we tend to surround ourselves with like-minded individuals or we're influenced by the people we grow up with or live with or associate with.*

*That's not true in my case! Nobody thinks like I do in my family. My friends disagree with me all the time on my long-held metaphysical beliefs in astrology, worm-holes, time travel, astro travel, holistic healing, reincarnation, angels & spirits...I could go on and on! If I waited around for approval and agreement for what I have studied and the resulting conclusions I've come to in my life, I'd still be waiting for direction on what I do believe.*

*But, please know that one thing you can count on from my corner: I encourage and accept any belief system you've arrived at that works for you.*

*The only thing that would bother me is if you were too intellectually lazy not to really have come up with one in the first place.*


*AngelEyes*


----------



## curly

For the purpose of shortening the length of this text I'll say that when I say afterlife I mean sentient, conscious life.

My thoughts on the subjects are

I don't see how an afterlife with any meaning to me exsits for the foolowing reasons,

1 If I accept that people are reincarnated over and over then surely there are reincarnated people living now, It's likely that I am one of them but may not be, In either case I have no experience that tells me there are account or memories of previous lives, that means that people may be living without these memories, and so, are not who they were, can't remember being puzzled about it, so , in a sense are new people. the answer is not solved, leading to no "new" life.

2 If I accept that there is a "spirit" that remains in a spiritual ( or otherwise) plane of existance, then our senses will be completely different, our entire being and life and different thing, unimaginable, (just as I can't imagine of any new colour", meaning that once there we couldn't imagine of our old existance, Rendering the former life non-existant, and so the "afterlife" is simply life. This has the same consequences as no. 1

3 If there is nothing, there is nothing, our atoms and energy are fed back into the universe to become other things, other life. ( hence the other life that I believe someone was talking about before, to which someone lse retort " What if it's an old spinster with no relatives or children" , our substance decomposes becoming other things.

4 If you accept that there is one afterlife, I see no argument to not accept multiple, and indeed infinte, afterlives. There is no evidence of any previous life, so I have to assume that this is the beginning plane of life, in an infinite string of lives, it is amlost infinitely improbable, which somewhat discredits afterlife.

5I don't think the arguemnt of "That's too sad" really counts, there are many things that are too sad to  think about, but they're still reality.

My second thought is that it makes little difference to me whether there is an afterlife or not. Although I hope there is an afterlife, I don't believe there is, I hope i'm wrong, but if i'm not I won't know. 

I haven't commented on other types of afterlife that I haven't thought of, or that haven't been suggested to me.


Have a nice day


----------



## thedeity

i think it depends on what u think about religion.if u believe in a religion , most probably u have a tendancy for  believing this.


----------



## maxiogee

thedeity said:


> *I* think it depends on what *you* think about religion. *I*f *you* believe in a religion, most probably *you* have a *tendency* *towards* believing this.



Just a few corrections.


----------



## thedeity

Thank you..


----------



## cuchuflete

> NZ reader Damian Glenny is embarrassed by a recent move in his country. He tells us that the Foundation of Spiritualist Mediums [FSM] was given $2500 [approximately US$1800] of Auckland taxpayers money through an Auckland City Council committee, to teach people to communicate with the dead.


source

No comment.


----------



## AngelEyes

chuchuflete,

Have you ever studied Mediumship?

I've studied under the Psychic/Medium John Edward. Not a lot, admittedly, because he rarely teaches, but I've learned a lot from him and about his work in the Psychic/Afterlife area. John does make it clear that he wants none of those he lectures to in his teaching workshops, to tell people that they are qualified to do any outside work on their own, especially tied in with his name. That's how seriously he takes his work. If he taught full-time, then you could really learn a lot from him and also say publicly you are associated with him. So, to make things clear, I've studied with him; I haven't become associated with him.

I hope you would be the kind of open-minded individual who would not take the Amazing Randi's word for any subject. I would at least like to think that with your intellect - and I DO believe you're highly intelligent - you would spend at least a year studying the subject and making up your own mind about it all. Maybe you have.

But there is no possible way to really have any kind of informed opinion unless you become informed through personal experience.

I guess that's the only thing that bothers me about people who say "hogwash" to it all. And I'm not saying you are, chuchuflete. In general, though, I ask you all to study the subject and then come to a legitimate conclusion on your own.

Otherwise, it's all speculation. Which is okay with me; just label it as such.
And to clarify my use of the word, "speculation", I mean not just if you agree with me. You can disagree all you want if you've studied it as long as I have and you find it has no validity. Then I'd want to discuss what DIDN'T happen in your research. But, if you haven't, then that's what I mean by speculation. You don't know the subject, haven't delved into it, and can't make an informed opinion, other that to speculate on what you believe, which would be based on limited experience and knowledge. 

Nothing wrong with that, either. But there is a difference, at least in my mind.


AngelEyes


----------



## cuchuflete

That, Angel Eyes, was quite an impassioned note in response to my highly contentious, "No comment."


----------



## cuchuflete

This thread is resting for a while, to enable all to digest their dinners and let the libation's effects wear off.


----------

