# la place du champ de foire



## Micia93

Bonjour à tous 

je dois traduire un petit livret sur ma très rurale région, et notamment cet endroit : faut-il le laisser en anglais ou existe-t-il un équivalent ?
pour les anglophones, c'est une sorte de marché où viennent des commerçants ambulants (fruits et légumes, fromages, articles divers comme quicaillerie) ; autrefois, on y vendait aussi des animaux, mais je suis sûre que cela existe ailleurs qu'en France n'est-ce-pas ?

merci de votre aide en tous cas !


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## ufoseeker

Salut!
Je laisserais "Champ de Foire" en ajoutant une très brève explication entre parenthèse (si ta place te le permet bien évidemment)...


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## Micia93

merci Ufoseeker, ta réponse a été plus que rapide ! 

ceci dit, ce concept n'existe-t-il qu'ne France à ton avis ?


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## Quaeitur

Bonjour Micia

Y-a-t-il une différence entre cette place du champ de foire et une place de marché? Je serais tentée par une traduction du style _Market place _ou _Old market place_.


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## Transfer_02

In England we have "fairgrounds" in some towns, typically the field where the travelling fair would stopover once or twice a year, usually accompanied by some kind of agricultural or horticultural show and maybe a few stalls selling food or icecream.  But not a food market as such.


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## Geordie_Wilber

In Britain, we've got many different kinds of "former" markets - corn exchange, cattle market, cloth market, groat market and, in Newcastle upon Tyne, city of my birth, the Bigg Market, so called because they sold "biggs", a kind of barley...

Bref, je suis preneur pour le "Old XXXX Market" de Quaeitur


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## Geordie_Wilber

Transfer_02 said:


> In England we have "fairgrounds" in some towns


Yes, you're right, I forgot about those getting all nostaligic for Newcastle! 

They're often called "showgrounds" in the North of England for what it's worth...


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## Transfer_02

Yes, "showgrounds" is also common in the south.  We have Kings Meadow in Reading which used to be the site of the "Reading Show" (flowers, fruit and veg, animals etc) now it is just used for the Rock Festival.


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## Micia93

Quaeitur said:


> Bonjour Micia
> 
> Y-a-t-il une différence entre cette place du champ de foire et une place de marché? Je serais tentée par une traduction du style _Market place _ou _Old market place_.


 
Bonjour Quaeitur et merci à tous ! 

en fait, je pense que la différence vient du fait que "la place du champ de foire" est typique au milieu rural ; comme je le disais, autrefois, on y vendait beaucoup d'animaux - style "foire aux bestiaux" - (on y voit du reste un exemple dans "la Terre" de Zola) ; sur ces places actuellement, si on ne pas acheter une vache ou un mouton, on y voit très fréquemment des oies, des poules .... 
peut-être "Old Market" convient-il, quoique "showground" ne semble pas mal non plus. J'ai peur de ne pas être comprise si je laisse "Champ de Foire place" comme le suggérait Ufoseeker. Qu'en pensez-vous les natifs ?


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## Kat LaQ

Perhaps *marketplace*: An open area or square in a town where a public market or sale is set up.

In AE, *fairgrounds* can have the connotation of some kind of performance, such as a circus or amusement park. but it can also be used for rural markets as you describe, as in State Fair or County Fair. These typically are not daily (or very frequent) marketplaces, but annual or seasonal events. If you google fairgrounds, you'll see lots of images of Ferris wheels.

I think you could use either term as long as you give some kind of description that clarifies. *Fairgrounds* is perhaps a bit more romantic.  But I've seen "ancient marketplace" in many travel publications.

I don't think an American audience would understand if you left the term in French.


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## Micia93

many thanks for this explanation, Kat 
I think that "County Fair" might fit in this case ! would "Town Fair" also fit ?


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## Aoyama

Market place est très bien. [...]
la foire, c'est le marché ...

Moderator note: Streaming links not allowed in WRF without prior approval.


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## Micia93

Thanks Aoyama, 

but as Kat pointed out, this is a market (a fair) which takes place twice a year, with a lot of sellers. The place is huge since there are many articles and animals proposed (from a blouse to a chicken for instance)
whereas I think a simple market takes place every sunday morning for instance, with basic food only
do you feel this difference ? of course, I could translate by "market place" and I must be a bit picky trying to find the more accurate word which can express this difference


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## Aoyama

I _feel_ the difference, in my flesh and bones. But then, in a _petit livret,_ let's be simple . A market can be many things (but you'd have to see it or be there to be the judge), but a "Place du Champ de Foire" is just (when there is no "Foire") a Grand'Place, that is ... a Main Square/Circus, a ... Market Place (in this sense, it should be noted, English uses the French meaning ; I often correct my Japanese students who use "place" in French as in English) .


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## Wodwo

Context is crucial in all of this. To me a "showground" is somewhere where a show is held. Where I grew up, the nearest "show ground" was used for "show-jumping", in other words competitions involving horses jumping over obstacles. This would not be a "foire", although the meanings of "foire" and "show" can sometimes coincide, as has been suggested. Similarly, these days a "fairground" conjures up images of roller-coasters and ferris wheels. This is because the dominant (but not only) meaning of "fair" has changed over time, from a market with entertainments to the entertainments themselves. I think something similar has happened to "foire".

So on these grounds, like others before me, I would go for "market square" if it's paved or has some other kind of hard, artificial surface, because the chances are that the most important element of the "foire" once held on the "champ de foire" was a market.


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## Reynald

Micia93 said:


> ... je pense que la différence vient du fait que "la place du champ de foire" est typique au milieu rural ; comme je le disais, autrefois, on y vendait beaucoup d'animaux - style "foire aux bestiaux" - (on y voit du reste un exemple dans "la Terre" de Zola) ; sur ces places actuellement, si on ne pas acheter une vache ou un mouton, on y voit très fréquemment des oies, des poules ....


Micia, en lisant tes explications on voit très bien ce que tu veux dire (ces champs de foire, ou foirails, figurent sur de nombreuses cartes postales anciennes).

Bref, une idée en appelant une autre, je me suis souvenu du récit d'un crime extraordinaire ayant eu précisément pour cadre un champ de foire au XIXe s.
L'auteur de la traduction anglaise du livre a choisi "fairground".
Voici la référence (résumé dans lequel on trouve "on the fairground", cinquième ligne avant la fin).
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674939011


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## Wodwo

"on the fairground" sounds weird to me - I don't think I've ever seen "fairground" used in English to refer to an empty space, as opposed to a space currently occupied by a fair, so using it with "on" doesn't sound right. But this may be a BE / AE thing, as our use of prepositions varies. I also notice this is the blurb for the book, which may or may not be the work of its translator.


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## Reynald

[...]
Est-ce que "fair field" serait moins bizarre ?
(Je suis assez intrigué par les désaccords sur cette traduction. Pas de champ de foire dans les villages anglais autrefois ?)

Note de la modération : Les liens vers des sites commerciaux ne sont pas admis sur WRF.


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## Monicbb

I find this quite interesting. As mentioned by KatLaq and Wodwo, fairgrounds refer to a specific kind of entertainment usually on an open space like a park or a field. Specialist markets can be called Foires, for example Foire aux vins, same in English. A wine fair. Foire des fermiers / farmers market etc.  Their locations may either be a dedicated space or differ.
'Aller á la foire' generally means going to the fairground, originally set up in a field, thus le champ de foire.  However aller á la foire aux vins means going to a market where wine sellers gather to promote and sell their wines.  Some markets have becomd so big they are now called La Foire Exposition or Le Parc des Expositions. 
Going back to the original query, la place du marché is fairly generic yet quite correct and everyone will understand the meaning.
Not as easy as it seems.


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## Nicomon

Wodwo a réanimé un vieux fil, mais je présume que Micia, qui a posé la question en février 2010, a livré le « petit livret » depuis. 

Cela dit,   *le GDT*  et *Termium* traduisent tous deux _champ de foire_ par _ fairground, _et _market place _par _ place de/du marché.  _


> Un *champ de foire*, ou *foirail*, est un emplacement réservé aux foires dans les villes ou les villages. Il peut s'agir, par exemple, d'une place n'accueillant pas la circulation automobile ou de la partie non plantée d'un grand jardin public. On peut y dresser des stands et des chapiteaux.


 _Fairground _est défini ainsi dans le *Merriam Webster *: 





> an outdoor area where fairs, circuses, and exhibitions are held


   J'aurais cru que _aller à la foire_ se traduisait par  _going to the fair_  (tout court) et non _going to the fairground_. 

Je n'ai pas l'application nécessaire pour lire la suite, mais j'ai lu ce qui suit sous le titre _Little known Vézelay : _


> The Place du Champ de Foire, also known as the foirail or “fairground” was the venue for markets and fairs selling wine, grain, wood, cattle and ...


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## broglet

I think 'fairground' or anything containing the word 'fair' would be misleading in this context and a _faux ami_. 

I would translate this as 'market square', 'market field' or (following Quaeitur) 'market place'


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## Reynald

Nicomon said:


> J'aurais cru que _aller à la foire_ se traduisait par  _going to the fair_  (tout court) et non _going to the fairground_.


D'accord. On ne cherche pas le nom de l'événement mais celui du lieu.
Merci pour les références supplémentaires.

Il semble, d'après certaines réponses précédentes, que quand un anglophone entend "fair" _aujourd'hui_, il comprend aussitôt "fun fair".(?)

Quelques illustrations.


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## broglet

Reynald said:


> Il semble, d'après certaines réponses précédentes, que quand un anglophone entend "fair" _aujourd'hui_, il comprend aussitôt "fun fair"


normalement mais pas forcément - ça dépend du contexte


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## Wodwo

Reynald said:


> (Je suis assez intrigué par les désaccords sur cette traduction. Pas de champ de foire dans les villages anglais autrefois ?)



Probably not in most of them. The fair would have been held in a local town. But I think the point is that although both "foire" and "fair" have similar connotations, in English the funfair meaning has become dominant - perhaps because the UK became more urban earlier than France and the population lost its connection to more rural traditions, who knows?

So although it might be possible to use something with "fair" in it to describe the space where a traditional fair was held, it would take a bit of preparation to stop "fairground" producing the wrong image in the reader's head. If you are translating a book you can perhaps do this. And you can rephrase to avoid the problem. But if you're translating "Champ de Foire" (as I was when I came to this thread) more or less on its own, you need a different solution to avoid the imaginary roller-coasters.


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## Nicomon

_Job Fair_ (_salon de l'emploi_) and _Trade Fair_ _(foire commerciale)_ are expressions I hear hundred times a year in my field of work (no pun intended). 
So I personally don't associate _fair_ with roller coasters. 

If _fairground_ - which doesn't sound like a _faux ami_ to me when I read the definition from Merriam Webster - doesn't work and we need to chose
between _market field_ and _market place/square_, then in my opinion (but I'm no native) _market field_ is closer to _champ de foire_. 
The other two would normally be translated as _place de/du marché _and wouldn't make me think of a rural market.


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## Wodwo

Well, I wouldn't like to say what "fairground" means to a North American out of context. You could always try it on some and see. Perhaps it would work, and it would be useful and interesting to know.

I too am familiar with trade fairs and the like, and I would be hard put to it to define the term "fair" out of at least a vague context, because there are so many different kinds. But I can't imagine ever calling an empty space where a trade fair or country show type fair was held a "fairground". 

The only space of this specific kind that I know well in rural England is called a "showground" (not the one where the showjumping happens, but another) because the fair itself is called a "show" - as is the "country show" near where I live in London. But part of the function of these "shows" is to reconnect people whose lives are basically urban with aspects of agricultural life. I don't think you could apply the term "show" to a regular rural fair. Or at least, if you did, you'd need plenty of context.

"market field" sounds weird to me - even more so if it was not actually a field at all, but a paved square in a village known as the "champ de foire".

The thing is, this is something cultural that has to be translated in the light of the target culture, rather than just the words, to get the right picture in the reader's head. I think the most likely solution, where BE is concerned at least, would be a paraphrase, such as "the field where the village fairs were held" or "former site of the local fair" or, if it was a village square called "champ de foire", "the old market square".


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## broglet

I think one needs to know more about the precise nature of the _champ de foire _in question in order to come up with a satisfactory translation.  The only champ de foire I know is the one in Beaucaire which is a vast unpaved open space beside the river, now used as a car park.  I would refer to in English as 'the site of the mediaeval market'.


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## Micia93

_en fait, je pense que la différence vient du fait que "la place du champ de foire" est typique au milieu rural ; comme je le disais, autrefois, on y vendait beaucoup d'animaux - style "foire aux bestiaux" - (on y voit du reste un exemple dans "la Terre" de Zola) ; sur ces places actuellement, si on ne pas acheter une vache ou un mouton, on y voit très fréquemment des oies, des poules ...._

That's what I said in post 9. We no longer use this term now, we only say "marché". A that time, I had to translate "place du Champ de Foire" called so, because it used to be one ages ago.


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## Nicomon

@  Wodwo :  _Market field_ sounded... different to me, but since broglet (who speaks UK English) suggested it, I assumed that it was usual.

I can hardly picture « _un champ_ » as a paved square.   _Champ_, to me, rhymes with field / unpaved ground.
But then I haven't seen that « _Place du Champ de Foire_ »

For those interested, and just for the record as it is a Canadian Website,  "showground" is translated as « terrain d'exposition » in *Termium*.

Au fait Micia, qu'est-ce que t'as fini par écrire au juste dans ce petit livret, en 2010?


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## Micia93

J'ai mis "market place", mais je n'en n'étais pas très contente ...  en fait, je me complique trop la vie parfois! j'aurais pu tout aussi bien mettre "Place du Champ de Foire" comme tel, après tout, on ne traduit pas "Avenue des Champs-Elysées", n'est-ce-pas?


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## broglet

Micia93 said:


> J'ai mis "market place", mais je n'en n'étais pas très contente ...  en fait, je me complique trop la vie parfois! j'aurais pu tout aussi bien mettre "Place du Champ de Foire" comme tel, après tout, on ne traduit pas "Avenue des Champs-Elysées", n'est-ce-pas?


J'avais mal compris! Maintenant que je vois que "Place du Champ de Foire" est le nom d'une place je suis d'accord qu'il ne faut pas le traduire.


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## Nicomon

Et moi c'est de  _champ de foire_ (tout court) que je discutais depuis le début. 
Je continue de préférer_  fairground_ (les dicos ne doivent quand même pas tous se tromper ?) pour différencier _champ de foire _de _place du marché._

Mais je suis d'accord aussi que dans ton contexte, Micia, il n'y a pas lieu de traduire.
L'explication de l'origine du nom de cette place peut venir ensuite.  Comme dans cette phrase trouvée, que je me permets de citer à nouveau :


> The Place du Champ de Foire, also known as the foirail or “fairground” was the venue for markets and fairs selling wine, grain, wood, cattle and ...


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## broglet

fairground = fête foraine


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## Nicomon

This is only one of the definitions of_  fairground _(and not the most common)

To me _fête foraine = fun fair _

It is not what I understand from Merriam Webster's definition of _fairground_ (which I cited earlier in this never ending thread).
Here are other definitions copied from the Free Dictionary: 





> fairground
> n
> 1. an open space used for a fair or exhibition
> *Collins English Dictionary* –
> 
> fair•ground
> Often, fairgrounds. a place where fairs, horse races, etc., are held, esp. an area set aside by a county, city, or state for an annual fair and containing exhibition buildings.
> *Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary*,
> 
> fairground
> [ˈfɛərgraʊnd] n → *champ m de foire*


  In my stubborn mind, a fairground is the space/area, not the fair itself.

I don't expect anyone other than the dictionaries (or rather their writers) to agree with me, but I see _ground a_s the _champ_ part of _champ de foire._


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## broglet

The word 'fairground' is often used as a synecdoche to refer to a funfair.  In the UK it would be unusual for it to be used to refer to the ground where a commercial fair is held. In general it would be inappropriate as a translation for 'champ de foire' but context is everything.


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## Wodwo

Nicomon said:


> Je continue de préférer_  fairground_ (les dicos ne doivent quand même pas tous se tromper ?) pour différencier _champ de foire _de _place du marché_



Without wishing to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for dictionaries (I'm a fan, with reservations), whenever anyone insists that I must be wrong because surely a dictionary is right, I generally tell them the honest truth which is that I was in my youth employed as a translator translating French keywords on a bilingual French/English dictionary. As my authority clearly has its limitations, that generally gives them pause.

Bilingual dictionaries are written and their translations found and invented by fallible human beings with quotas to fill. The people at Merriam Webster have done their honest best I'm sure, but they are not infallible, nor can their translations be expected to apply in every context. That's just one good reason why the WordReference forums are so useful.


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## broglet

I agree 100% with Wodwo's eloquent analysis of the hazards of dictionariphilia and the merits of WR ... and _pace_ the dictionaries, 'fairground' in the current context seems just plain wrong


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## Nicomon

@ Wodwo :  I don't remember writing anywhere that you were wrong.  I merely stated my preference.
My point (read again the part of my post that you quoted)  was to differentiate *« champ de foire »* from *« place du marché ». *

As an English to French translator, I need to rely on dictionaries to translate to English, which isn't my mother tongue.
But then with 22k + posts to my name, I think it's fair to say that I'm also a WR forums aficionada...

I didn't merely cite  Merriam Webster.  Right from start, I provided links to Termium and the GDT (both trilingual dictionaries). Plus I cited the French definition of _Champ de foire_  and quoted (twice) a sentence with "_fairground_" between brackets, which seemed directly related to Micia's context from 5 years ago.

In my last post, I cited definitions of _fairground_ from Collins, Random House/Webster's and the given translation of _champ de foire_ (take a wild guess) from
*that page* of the FreeDictionary. That's what I meant by "they can't ALL be wrong".

Now about your comment in reply to Reynald's post, the translator  of « _Le Village des cannibales_ » - Arthur Goldhammer (who has won several awards) -
*did* use_ fairground _to translate _champ de foire. _The word cannot be understood as_ fête foraine_ in that specific context.
Unfortunately, I can't provide the link to extracts from the actual book, which I found on books.google.ca.

That said, if you would rather use "_market place/square_" to translate both _place du marché_ and _champ de foire_  well... that's your prerogative.


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## Wodwo

Nicomon said:


> That said, if you would rather use "_market place/square_" to translate both _place du marché_ and _champ de foire_  well... that's your prerogative.



Indeed. And it seems fair enough if the "champ de foire" in question has become, as some have with the passing of time, a paved or otherwise made surface surrounded by buildings in an urban area. But as I indicated in post 26, there are different ways to translate "champ de foire" and in many cases the best option is probably a paraphrase. And then if it's an official name obviously it should be left untranslated, like Les Champs Élysées.

I feel this discussion is now becoming circular, so I think I'll make this my last post, but it has been interesting and fun, so thanks all.


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