# Espresso (caffè italiano)



## brian

Ciao,

I work as a barista in an American coffee shop.  I'm sure our drinks are much different from the authentic Italian espresso drinks, but here is a short list of what we serve:

_Cafe latte = 1-3 shots of espresso with the rest of the cup filled with steamed milk and a bit of froth/foam

Cappucino = 1-3 shots of espresso with some steamed milk and at least 1/3 (sometimes close to 1/2) the cup filled with froth

Espresso macchiato = 1-3 shots of espresso with a "spot" (touch) of froth on top

Espresso con panna = 1-3 shots of espresso with a touch of whipped cream on top_

I have two questions.  1) I've never heard any Italian speakers in New Orleans before (other than the few phrases my Italian family still knows), but I served a man the other day who I think was speaking Italian.  He only said three words, which I'm pretty sure were, "Solo...con panna."  I definitely knew that "con panna" meant "with (whipped) cream," and I surmised that "solo" meant "single shot (of espresso)."  In Italy, do Italians order by the number of shots, and if so, do you not say "uno," "due," etc.?  Do you not say "singolo"?  Is "solo" common?  Maybe he wasn't Italian and was just making stuff up!

2) Are these drinks popular in Italy and are they made similarly?  Or are these "Americanized"?  How do they differ?  What's YOUR preference??

I look forward to hearing your responses!


Brian


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## Alxmrphi

solo means only


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## Elisa68

_Solo_ is not the way we order an _espresso_ in Italy. I think it is the way Starbucks named its one-shot _espresso_. You are right about the _con panna_ part.

In Italy we simply order: _un caffè (corto, lungo, macchiato, corretto)_ without saying the number of shots.

_Caffelatte_ (one word in Italian) is pretty the same (without foam)
_Cappuccino_ is like the American _Caffè Latte_.


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## brian

Elisa68 said:
			
		

> _Solo_ is not the way we order an _espresso_ in Italy. I think it is the way Starbucks named its one-shot _espresso_. You are right about the _con panna_ part.
> 
> In Italy we simply order: _un caffè (corto, lungo, macchiato, corretto)_ without saying the number of shots.
> 
> _Caffelatte_ (one word in Italian) is pretty the same (without foam)
> _Cappuccino_ is like the American _Caffè Latte_.



Interessante.  Cos'è _un caffè corto/lungo/corretto_?  E quanti "shots" sono in un caffè?


Brian


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## Elisa68

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Interessante. Cos'è _un caffè corto/lungo/corretto_? E quanti "shots" sono in un caffè?


Usually, one shot (5,6 grams of coffee).
Corto/ristretto = short/strong
Lungo= long/weak
Corretto= laced with liquor


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## BURRITO

ciao brian!
esiste anche il caffè "liscio" che è una via di mezzo tra l'espresso e il lungo come intensità ed è liscio perchè non ha niente aggiunto (latte, liquori ecc.). il caffè con panna si beve ma non è molto comune...forse il tuo cliente era latino, visto che in spagnolo il caffè liscio è "un café solo"...jeje

ciao ciao
cri


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## Saoul

In Milan, and I don't know if anywhere else, we have also "marocchino" which basically is a small "cappuccino". 
People asking a coffee here are quite funny. Conversation are composed by one or two words.


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## nickditoro

Venti anni fa, in Italia, chiedevo caffè Haag (decaffeinato). Esiste ancora?


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## emma1968

Adesso dalle mie parti va di moda il "mocacino" . Non sono neanche tanto sicura che si scriva così. Dovrebbe essere una sorta di cappuccino con cioccolata!


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## You little ripper!

emma1968 said:
			
		

> Adesso dalle mie parti va di moda il "mocacino" . Non sono neanche tanto sicura che si scriva così. Dovrebbe essere una sorta di cappuccino con cioccolata!


We call that a _mochaccino._
Link


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## drudo

nickditoro said:
			
		

> Venti anni fa, in Italia, chiedevo caffè Hag (decaffeinato). Esiste ancora?


Si, esiste ancora!


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## shamblesuk

Come si chiede di un _caffelatte_ 'forte' (cioè fatto con un espresso doppio)?

Al di qua non la fanno basta forte, è sempre troppo debole.

Basta dire '_Prendo_ u_n caffelatte corto/ristretto, per favore'?_

Lee


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## emma1968

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> We call that a _mochaccino._



Bravo Charles!
Si vede che non l'ho mai bevuto eh????
Ne ho solo sentito parlare!


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## Elisa68

shamblesuk said:
			
		

> Come si chiede di un _caffelatte_ 'forte' (cioè fatto con un espresso doppio)?


Io lo chiederei così.


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## You little ripper!

emma1968 said:
			
		

> Bravo Charles!
> Si vede che non l'ho mai bevuto eh????
> Ne ho solo sentito parlare!


I sometimes put a tablespoon of Nutella into the coffee. It gives a lovely hazelnut flavour.
Is there one made with coffee that has no milk in it, or is it just made with cappuccino?


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## nickditoro

drudo said:
			
		

> Si, esiste ancora!


 Hag, sì! Grazie, drudo.


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## drudo

nickditoro said:
			
		

> Hag, sì! Grazie, drudo.


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## nickditoro

Elisa68 said:
			
		

> _Solo_ is not the way we order an _espresso_ in Italy. I think it is the way Starbucks named its one-shot _espresso_.


 I'm pretty sure that's right, since they distinguish it from their _doppio_ (2 shots).


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## emma1968

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> I sometimes put a tablespoon of Nutella into the coffee. It gives a lovely hazelnut flavour.
> Is there one made with coffee that has no milk in it, or is it just made with a cappuccino?



I think there is only the one made with cappuccino.Anyway when you order a coffee they usually give you a "cioccolatino" as well  . You could put it into the coffee  in order to obtain the one you described


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## You little ripper!

emma1968 said:
			
		

> I think there is only the one made with cappuccino.Anyway when you order a coffee they usually give you a "cioccolatino" as well  . You could put it into the coffee  in order to obtain the one you described


Thanks Emma.

BTW your English is getting better by the minute!


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## primo_cerchio

nickditoro said:
			
		

> Venti anni fa, in Italia, chiedevo caffè Haag (decaffeinato). Esiste ancora?



HAG  esiste è una marca ma in Italia è diventato quasi sinonimo di decaffeinato.


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## emma1968

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> Thanks Emma.
> 
> BTW your English is getting better by the minute!



Non mi dire così che mi fai emozionare...Aside that, you know, having my own gardian angel...


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## nickditoro

emma1968 said:
			
		

> Non mi dire così che mi fai emozionare...Aside that, you know, having my own g*u*ardian angel...


Oops!


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## plabrocca

drudo said:
			
		

> Si, esiste ancora!



Ciao,

Si può comprare caffè decaffeinato facile ai bar e ai ristoranti in Italia?

Pat


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## emma1968

plabrocca said:
			
		

> Ciao,
> 
> Si può comprare f*acilmente* caffè decaffeinato facile *nei*  bar e
> * nei* ristoranti in Italia?
> 
> Pat


Perché no?


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## Elisa68

plabrocca said:
			
		

> Ciao,
> 
> Si può comprare caffè decaffeinato facile ai bar e ai ristoranti in Italia?
> 
> Pat


Sì, in genere si trova senza problemi.


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## plabrocca

emma1968 said:
			
		

> Perché no?



It used to be hard to find. For a long time you could only find instant decaf, but that was a while ago.

Thanks for the corrections.

Pat


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## brian

Questo thread è molto interessante.  Un'altra domanda. (I don't really know the scope of this thread, but hopefully mods won't get too upset about it being all over the place ) In Italia, si prepara mai un caffè espresso a casa?  O lo si beve solo al bar?  C'è una differenza nel sapore?


Brian


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## emma1968

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Questo thread è molto interessante.  Un'altra domanda. (I don't really know the scope of this thread, but hopefully mods won't get too upset about it being all over the place ) In Italia, si prepara mai un caffè espresso a casa?  O lo si beve solo al bar?  C'è una differenza nel sapore?
> 
> 
> Brian



Molte famiglie hanno in casa la macchina per fare il  caffè   espresso. Naturalmente non viene come quello del bar.


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## emma1968

plabrocca said:
			
		

> It used to be hard to find. For a long time you could only find instant decaf, but that was a while ago.
> 
> Thanks for the corrections.
> 
> Pat



You are welcome!


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## You little ripper!

emma1968 said:
			
		

> Molte famiglie hanno in casa la macchina per fare il  caffè   espresso. Naturalmente non viene come quello del bar.


If you have a decent espresso coffee machine you can get coffee that is exactly the same as the one you get in a bar. Obviously a caffettiera doesn't make coffee like that.


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## emma1968

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> If you have a decent espresso coffee machine you can get coffee that is exactly the same as the one you get in a bar. Obviously a caffettiera doesn't make coffee like that.



Indeed, you are right. It definitely depends from what kind of machine you have. If you  have a good one you surely will be able to make  an espresso coffee as good as the one you get in a bar.

Regarding the "caffettiera" I can say that with it you taste another kind of coffee, with a different flavour!


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## primo_cerchio

plabrocca said:
			
		

> It used to be hard to find. For a long time you could only find instant decaf, but that was a while ago.
> 
> Thanks for the corrections.
> 
> Pat


In Italy you can find decaf in bars since 30 years.

In France it was like that.


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## Saoul

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> If you have a decent espresso coffee machine you can get coffee that is exactly the same as the one you get in a bar. Obviously a caffettiera doesn't make coffee like that.



No way Charles! Emma's right. Even the best of home coffee machines cannot make a coffee as good as the one you can have in a coffee shop.
It's not only a matter of pressure, but of use. 
Coffee shops very early in the morning make very poor coffees, because the pressure in the machine is still not sufficient, and new machines don't make perfect coffees, so both the daily use, and the frequency are involved.

But this is really a coffee-addict problem. 
I like the one from the moka, too!

EDIT: EMMA! Non ti piegare all'Aussie che non ne sa niente di caffè! I love you Charles, you know it, don't you?


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## lsp

emma1968 said:
			
		

> Indeed, you are right. It definitely depends from what kind of machine you have. If you  have a good one you surely will be able to make  an espresso coffee as good as the one you get in a bar.


It'll be close, but not the same. The _pressure_ is what makes the difference, and the pressure in the machines at the bar is difficult to find in the most common machines made for the home. Some of the very expensive ones approximate it.

EDIT: Hi, Saoul.. didn't see you there before....


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## emma1968

Saoul said:
			
		

> No way Charles! Emma's right. Even the best of home coffee machines cannot make a coffee as good as the one you can have in a coffee shop.
> It's not only a matter of pressure, but of use.
> Coffee shops very early in the morning make very poor coffees, because the pressure in the machine is still not sufficient, and new machines don't make perfect coffees, so both the daily use, and the frequency are involved.
> 
> But this is really a coffee-addict problem.
> I like the one from the moka, too!
> 
> EDIT: EMMA! Non ti piegare all'Aussie che non ne sa niente di caffè! I love you Charles, you know it, don't you?


Saoul, non è questione di piegarsi all'Aussie I guess it's a subjective point of view!
Maybe a coffeeholic could notice the difference !! And I'm not a coffeeholic!!


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## Wolverine

I think that the machines for making coffee are very different between Italy and Usa (for example).

In Italy we use the classical espresso mechine. With 5-6 grams of Coffee powder, you obtain a little cup of coffee in 30 seconds. It's so fast and we call espresso. It's not important the concept of shot. A regular coffee is 5-6 grams of powder. If you put a double quantity of powder you obtain a _doppio_ coffee (double), it the machine goes less than 30 second you obtain a _ristretto_ coffee (short), if the machine goes more than 30 seconds you obtain a _lungo_ coffee (long).

These are the types of coffee.
Then you can make a lot of variations putting milk or cream ol chocolate or whatever... 

I think also that coffee in Usa (for example) has a lot of coffee powder and a very big quantity of water.. For example the Starbucks coffee..

Spero di non avere detto troppe cose sbagliate.

Ciao


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## You little ripper!

Saoul said:
			
		

> No way Charles! Emma's right. Even the best of home coffee machines cannot make a coffee as good as the one you can have in a coffee shop.
> It's not only a matter of pressure, but of use.
> Coffee shops very early in the morning make very poor coffees, because the pressure in the machine is still not sufficient, and new machines don't make perfect coffees, so both the daily use, and the frequency are involved.
> 
> But this is really a coffee-addict problem.
> I like the one from the moka, too!
> 
> EDIT: EMMA! Non ti piegare all'Aussie che non ne sa niente di caffè! I love you Charles, you know it, don't you?


It depends on the coffee machine. I only have one coffee a day so I use a caffettiera, but my brother has one, and it makes coffee _*exactly*_ the way you would get it in a bar. I must admit that some machines aren't that good. Maybe we make much better coffee machines in Australia, Saoul?


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## Wolverine

Another thing that I think is that is probably impossible obtaining a coffee like the "espresso" in the bar with a caffettiera (which is this http://www.lifeinitaly.com/food/img/caffettiera-300.jpg).

If for caffettiera you means a machine electrical..

..welll..
..maybe in a great lucky day you can obtain the espresso coffee..


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## Saoul

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> It depends on the coffee machine. I only have one coffee a day so I use a caffettiera, but my brother has one, and it makes coffee _*exactly*_ the way you would get it in a bar. I must admit that some machines aren't that good. Maybe we make much better coffee machines in Australia, Saoul?



Maybe  
Irony is absolutely attached.


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## lsp

Saoul said:
			
		

> Maybe
> Irony is absolutely attached.


 

XX,
admitted coffee snob


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## emma1968

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> It depends on the coffee machine. I only have one coffee a day so I use a caffettiera, but my brother has one, and it makes coffee _*exactly*_ the way you would get it in a bar. I must admit that some machines aren't that good. Maybe we make much better coffee machines in Australia, Saoul?


Or maybe italian bar make espresso coffee better than Aussie ones!!!


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## zagroMod

The most common ways (that I know, probably there are others) to drink coffee in Italy are:

- "caffè espresso": 1 shot, normally we call it simply "caffè". We have a lot of subcategories.
- "caffè normale": the common way, fill the typical italian coffee cup to the middle of the handle. Again we refer to it simply as "caffè".
- "caffè corto" or "ristretto": short, fill to the bottom end of the handle; is the purest part of the coffee so is more strong.
- "caffe lungo": longer, fill to the upper end of the handle; contain more water so is more weak.
- "caffè corretto": laced with some sort of booze, often with grappa, brandy or sambuca; fill as for the common way and nearly to the top with booze.
- "caffè doppio": 2 shoots, you can use the normal cup filled nearly to the top but is common the use of the "cappuccino"'s cup.
- "caffè triplo": 3 shoots, you must use the "cappuccino"'s cup. If you ask it the barman will look you like you are complety nuts (the italian coffy is strong and 3 shoots are often too much). PP
- "decaffeinato": coffee without caffeine, served as any other "espresso". We often call it "deca" or "Hag" (if a trade but is so commond that became a synonym).
- "macchiato": with some milk in it, it can be "macchiato freddo" (with cold milk) or "macchiato caldo (with hot milk). Normaly you prapare a normal "espresso" and then give the milk to the customer (so he chose the quantity of milk)
- "marocchino": is an expresso served in a glass (similar to that used for superalchoolic but with a metallic handle) with some froth on it.
- "mochaccino": is a "marocchino with a lot of choccolate powder on it.
-" cappuccino": served in a larger cup is an "espresso" with a thick layer of froth (you must make it with vapor at the time, if you prepare a large amount of froth for too much customers your bar will become empty in few days).
- "latte macchiato": a glass of hot milk with some coffee in it.
- "moka": is the coffee that you can make at home without machine. It contain a large amount of water so is very weak. It have a completly different taste from the "espresso". Normally you can't find it at bars. Moka, for the precision, is the name of the pot used for make it.
- "solubile": is coffee to melt in hot water, the most famous trademark in Italy is Nescafé. You can prepare it nearly everywhere. Some bars have it but is very rare (normally only a stranger, used to drink very weak coffee, can ask for it).
- "caffè dell'universitario"; you prepare the coffee with the moka... then reopen the part that contain the water and fill it with the coffee you just prepared and add some water (or some booze!!!)... then you prepare a coffee; the result is VERY strong and is used often by students before some difficult test.
- "grolla" of "caffè alla valdostana"; is a very peculiar coffee prepared in Valle d'Aosta (you can find it in other regions but is VERY rare). Is too complicated to explain in few words.
- "caffè napoletano"; another peculiar manner to prepare the coffee. Again is a little complicated...


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## nickditoro

lsp said:
			
		

> It'll be close, but not the same. The _pressure_ is what makes the difference, and the pressure in the machines at the bar is difficult to find in the most common machines made for the home. Some of the very expensive ones approximate it.
> 
> EDIT: Hi, Saoul.. didn't see you there before....


Lsp, we are in complete agreement on this point. I have been buying espresso machines for years, beginning with a wonderful Swiss-made machine whose successor now costs in the neighborhood of $2,500 U.S.! My current machine is a more modest affair, though made in Italy. Nevertheless, regardless of how much care I put into making coffee, these machines simply can't produce the same consistency of _crema_ that the professional machines make. The _crema_ is the sine qua non of great espresso in my opinion. However, and this is important, even the greatest machine can produce terrible espresso if the barista doesn't know how to draw the shot. That's not to mention the selection/mixture of the beans, and of course roasting. I've noticed that American roasts labelled "espresso" are far darker than one gets from imported Italian beans.

EDIT: Removed any reference to brand names. (Thanks, Saoul!)


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## Bex78

Scusate se mi intrometto, ma avete dimenticato il fattore 'umidità'!!! E' molto importante!


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## Wolverine

There is nothing more to say about coffee...


..what about tea?


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## nickditoro

Wolverine said:
			
		

> Another thing that I think is that is probably impossible obtaining a coffee like the "espresso" in the bar with a caffettiera (which is this http://www.lifeinitaly.com/food/img/caffettiera-300.jpg).
> 
> If for caffettiera you means a machine electrical..
> 
> ..welll..
> ..maybe in a great lucky day you can obtain the espresso coffee..


 Isn't the machine pictured in this link called a "moka"? I notice that in Italian movies, Italians make their coffee at home only with these and not with the electric machines (with automatic or mechanical pumps).


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## Saoul

Bex78 said:
			
		

> Scusate se mi intrometto, ma avete dimenticato il fattore 'umidità'!!! E' molto importante!



This is what I call GENIUS!

Guys, you all know this will be absolutly blamed by every single mod on this planet? 

Nick great commercial, btw, and that thing about the moka was back in the 70s... I add up to Bex and say... we didn't talk about the water. Its taste is different, and it is very important in this all.


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## emma1968

nickditoro said:
			
		

> Isn't the machine pictured in this link called a "moka"? I notice that in Italian movies, Italians make their coffee at home only with these and not with the electric machines (with automatic or mechanical pumps).


Yes, it's a moka !!!

I personally  use it!
Il problema è che in casa lo bevo solo io e solo una volta al giorno, la moka da una tazza  ne fa almeno due, quindi devo sempre  buttarne via la metà!


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## Wolverine

nickditoro said:
			
		

> Isn't the machine pictured in this link called a "moka"? I notice that in Italian movies, Italians make their coffee at home only with these and not with the electric machines (with automatic or mechanical pumps).


 

You're right It's a moka.

We usual use this for making coffee at home, but someone has electrical or mechanical machines.

We usual say  _caffettiera_=moka= the image i linked

_Macchinetta per il caffè_ (properly a little machine for a coffee but means every kind of machine except the moka).


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## nickditoro

Bex78 said:
			
		

> Scusate se mi intrometto, ma avete dimenticato il fattore 'umidità'!!! E' molto importante!


 Ah, bravo! Credo che l'umidità sia un fattore molto importante.


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## Bex78

Come mi spiegava un barista che fa un caffè fantastico, il caffè va macinato poco per volta e più o meno finemente in base al grado di umidità e alla temperatura dell'ambiente in cui viene conservato ...


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## Jana337

Carissimi, so che è difficile non chattare in un tale thread ma potreste almeno cercare di frenarvi. 

Jana


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## emma1968

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Carissimi, so che è difficile non chattare in un tale thread ma potreste almeno cercare di frenarvi.
> 
> Jana



Sì hai ragione!!! Scusa Jana!


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## brian

Everything I have read and experienced concerning espresso-making has led me to believe that it is an _artform_ which cannot easily be replicated in the home.  Many many factors go into making espresso:

1) the espresso machine--there are many types out on the market, but the best and most widely used is one that pushes high-pressure (9-10 atmospheres of pressure) water (88-95° C) through a porta-filter containing 14-17 g of coffee for 22-28 seconds.  This is a bit more than double the 5-6 g I keep reading on this thread, but that is because this method produces two shots (they come out separately through the porta-filter, so you can drink only one if you'd like.)  A brew time less than 18 secs will be very weak, and more than 28 secs will be bitter.

2) the beans--this includes the freshness and roast color of the beans, the grind (how fine or coarse), and how densely the coffee is "tamped" (pushed down) into the porta-filter before brewing

3) other factors such as temperature conditions and humidity in the air can greatly increase the outcome of the espresso and may necessitate a harder/softer tamp or a coarser/finer grind.

The most important difference, for me, between a _moka_ and the espresso machine described above is that the moka _cannot_ produce that sweet _crema_ of which I am so fond.

I play around with all these factors at my coffee house, and I can really tell the difference between a 20s, 25s, and 30s shot.  But since most people here get coffees filled with sugar, cream, chocolate, and caramel, I generally don't bother worrying about how the nuances of their espresso tastes. 

The reason I say it's an artform is because if any one of these factors changes, the barista has to compensate somehow.  It's very much a "feel" kind of work--you have to have the right "feel" for how to make the espresso.

There is even a World Barista Championship--http://www.worldbaristachampionship.com/default.htm.  The person in 3rd place from USA works at the coffee shop in Chicago I go to. 


Brian


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## nickditoro

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Everything I have read and experienced concerning espresso-making has led me to believe that it is an _artform_ which cannot easily be replicated in the home. Many many factors go into making espresso:
> 
> 1) the espresso machine--there are many types out on the market, but the best and most widely used is one that pushes high-pressure (9-10 atmospheres of pressure) water through a porta-filter containing 14-17 g of coffee for 22-28 seconds. This is about double the 5-6 g I keep reading on this thread, but that is because this method produces two shots (they come out separately through the porta-filter, so you can drink only one if you'd like.) A brew time less than 18 secs will be very weak, and more than 28 secs will be bitter.
> 
> 2) the beans--this includes the freshness and roast color of the beans, the grind (how fine or coarse), and how densely the coffee is "tamped" (pushed down) into the porta-filter before brewing
> 
> 3) other factors such as temperature conditions and humidity in the air can greatly increase the outcome of the espresso and may necessitate a harder/softer tamp or a coarser/finer grind.
> 
> I play around with all these factors at my coffee house, and I can really tell the difference between a 20s, 25s, and 30s shot. But since most people here get coffees filled with sugar, cream, chocolate, and caramel, I generally don't bother worrying about how the nuances of their espresso tastes.
> 
> The reason I say it's an artform is because if any one of these factors changes, the barista has to compensate somehow. It's very much a "feel" kind of work--you have to have the right "feel" for how to make the espresso.
> 
> There is even a World Barista Championship--http://www.worldbaristachampionship.com/default.htm. The person in 3rd place from USA works at the coffee shop in Chicago I go to.
> 
> 
> Brian


 Great post, Brian. You've said it all!!!!


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## primo_cerchio

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Everything I have read and experienced concerning espresso-making has led me to believe that it is an _artform_ which cannot easily be replicated in the home.  Many many factors go into making espresso:
> 
> 1) the espresso machine--there are many types out on the market, but the best and most widely used is one that pushes high-pressure (9-10 atmospheres of pressure) water through a porta-filter containing 14-17 g of coffee for 22-28 seconds. This is about double the 5-6 g I keep reading on this thread, but that is because this method produces two shots (they come out separately through the porta-filter, so you can drink only one if you'd like.) A brew time less than 18 secs will be very weak, and more than 28 secs will be bitter.
> 
> 2) the beans--this includes the freshness and roast color of the beans, the grind (how fine or coarse), and how densely the coffee is "tamped" (pushed down) into the porta-filter before brewing
> 
> 3) other factors such as temperature conditions and humidity in the air can greatly increase the outcome of the espresso and may necessitate a harder/softer tamp or a coarser/finer grind.
> 
> I play around with all these factors at my coffee house, and I can really tell the difference between a 20s, 25s, and 30s shot. But since most people here get coffees filled with sugar, cream, chocolate, and caramel, I generally don't bother worrying about how the nuances of their espresso tastes.
> 
> The reason I say it's an artform is because if any one of these factors changes, the barista has to compensate somehow. It's very much a "feel" kind of work--you have to have the right "feel" for how to make the espresso.
> 
> There is even a World Barista Championship--http://www.worldbaristachampionship.com/default.htm.  The person in 3rd place from USA works at the coffee shop in Chicago I go to.
> 
> 
> Brian


In  this post there is a link.
In this link they say that the first Italian barista is the seventeenth in this so called championship.

Is this correct?


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## marquess

Hi,
I like my espresso long. I have seen a double shot referred to as a 'doppio' but don't know if this is native *I*talian or a gobal chain popularisation for philistines like me. How do I ask for a real big one? A doppio doppio? or a quadruplo? quattrio? Asking for a grande seems to result in a double.


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## kuuleimomi

marquess said:


> How do I ask for a real big one? A doppio doppio? or a quadruplo? quattrio? Asking for a grande seems to result in a double.


 
 <-- That's my face after doppio. Scusami, but why would you want to have such a strong coffee in such a quantity in Italy? Honestly, you'll feel like crap after that. Besides, barista will look at you funny if you ask for anything more than doppio. 

I guess you can try "caffè triplo" for a triple coffee, but for anything more, I'd personally ask two double in one cup (with no remarks from the barman!). Now, a question for Italians how it'd be. My try: Due caffè doppi in una tazza, per piacere.


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## anghiarese

Doppio will be understood in Tuscany. It's just a double espresso.


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## Ali_skyblue

brian said:


> Ciao,
> 
> I work as a barista in an American coffee shop.  I'm sure our drinks are much different from the authentic Italian espresso drinks, but here is a short list of what we serve:
> 
> _Cafe latte = 1-3 shots of espresso with the rest of the cup filled with steamed milk and a bit of froth/foam
> 
> Cappucino = 1-3 shots of espresso with some steamed milk and at least 1/3 (sometimes close to 1/2) the cup filled with froth
> 
> Espresso macchiato = 1-3 shots of espresso with a "spot" (touch) of froth on top
> 
> Espresso con panna = 1-3 shots of espresso with a touch of whipped cream on top_
> 
> I have two questions.  1) I've never heard any Italian speakers in New Orleans before (other than the few phrases my Italian family still knows), but I served a man the other day who I think was speaking Italian.  He only said three words, which I'm pretty sure were, "Solo...con panna."  I definitely knew that "con panna" meant "with (whipped) cream," and I surmised that "solo" meant "single shot (of espresso)."  In Italy, do Italians order by the number of shots, and if so, do you not say "uno," "due," etc.?  Do you not say "singolo"?  Is "solo" common?  Maybe he wasn't Italian and was just making stuff up!
> 
> 2) Are these drinks popular in Italy and are they made similarly?  Or are these "Americanized"?  How do they differ?  What's YOUR preference??
> 
> I look forward to hearing your responses!
> 
> 
> Brian



Hi Brian,

probably the person asking you "Solo...con panna" was more spanish speaking than italian, infact the spanish way to ask for an espresso is to ask for a "cafe solo".


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## Blackman

Che thread irresistibile....

Aggiungo solo un paio di cose che mi sembra abbiate dimenticato.

Caffettiera napoletana. Diversa da tutte le altre, fa un caffè tipo filter o brewed.
Caffè al vetro. Un banale espresso servito in un bicchierino, per chi non sopporta la tazzina bollente.
L'acqua. Secondo i più smaliziati connoisseurs e' l'elemento fondamentale, per un ottimo caffè, a prescindere dalla macchina usata. Molti ritengono che l'acqua di Napoli sia imbattibile ( concordo in pieno...).

Ho bevuto espressi un po' in tutto il mondo e non sono mai riuscito a trovarne uno uguale a quello che si beve quotidianamente in Italia. Neppure quando fatto da italiani con caffè e attrezzature italiane.
A volte mi sembra di essere rimasto l'unico in Italia a prendere un espresso "normale". Ho visto perfino qualcuno correggerlo al vino bianco....


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## canto66

The right name is Hag, and it means just "società per azioni" or shared company. The name of the company selling the decaff coffee was different, but in Italy remained famous only the code.
An espresso shot normally is made with 7grams. 
  ---


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## london calling

Irresistibile per davvero, Blackman!

A dir la verità, Canto66, Hag è l'acronimo del nome dell'azienda di Brema che per prima ha "decaffeinato" il caffè (vedi qui) , non vuol dire "società per azioni".

Poi, riguardo al caffè "doppio": date un'occhiata a questo. Anch'io avrei detto che fosse per l'appunto un "double shot", ossia due caffè insieme, ma qui dicono sia un'altra cosa! Che cosa ne pensate? 

Da queste parti il caffè si beve ristretto (e non c'è bisogno neanche di specificarlo), mentre più vai verso nordo ho notato che se non lo dici te lo danno "lungo". Lo fanno anche ad arte, a mio avviso (sarà per l'acqua, come dice Blackman, sarà per la miscela, sarà per la tostatura, fate voi!).

Getting back to _caffè ristretto_ and _caffè lungo_, I'm not sure how I would express the difference between the two in English: I mean, they're both a form of espresso and they're both strong, but a _caffè ristretto_ is the stronger of the two. It's not a question of shots (i.e. how much coffee you get in your cups), but a matter of strength: strong and even stronger! When we have friends around who prefer _caffè lungo_, I tend to put more water and less coffee in the moka pot for them and then make another pot for us: we like it very strong.


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## brian

Wow, what an old thread! As an update, since that first post, I no longer work at a coffee shop (thank God), and I have lived in Italy for well over a year (though not anymore), so I can proudly say I'm quite well versed in Italian coffee jargon.

Regarding _caffè ristretto_ vs. _caffè lungo_ in English, I think coffee aficionados say _short_ and _long_, respectively. I've been to some higher-end cafés (by which I don't mean fancy; just cafés that _really_ care about coffee, almost to a snobbish extent), where when I order an espresso, they ask, "Short or long?"

Provided the person knows how espresso is made, I don't think there's any problem using _short_ and _long_. Of course, the problem is that many people, even so-called "baristas", don't _really_ know what's going on in the espresso machines. Nowadays, if I'm not mistaken, places like Starbucks have one-touch button-operated espresso machines, so that the employees don't even have to think, and it makes a "perfect" (i.e. commercially identical) shot every time. Thus, if you asked them to make a "short" shot, or even to "pull the shot more quickly" or "stop the shot early" etc., not only would they likely not know what you mean, but even if they did, the machine may not even allow it.



			
				london calling said:
			
		

> When we have friends around who prefer _caffè lungo_, I tend to put more water and less coffee in the moka pot for them and then make another pot for us: we like it very strong.



Interesting. I've only ever used _ristretto_ and _lungo_ in actual bars. My thinking is that _ristretto_ and _lungo_ refer to the amount of time that the shots are pulled. The longer the shot goes, i.e. the more water that runs through the coffee, the weaker the shot. Likewise, the shorter shot goes, i.e. the less water that runs, the stronger the shot. So for espresso machines, the amount of coffee pretty much always stays the same; it's the time, and hence amount of water, that is variable. A short shot will have less total volume than a long shot.

In the case of a moka pot, the amount of water, and hence the brewing time, is always the same; it's the amount of coffee that is variable. As such, the volume of coffee made is always the same.

Of course, from a purely linguistic point of view, it wouldn't surprise me if _ristretto_ and _lungo_ carried over to the home brewpot as well. (I could also be mistaken about the etymologies.) But in my experience in Italian homes, the person making the coffee just fills her up, sets her on the stovetop, and voilà - no questions asked.


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## london calling

brian said:


> Regarding _caffè ristretto_ vs. _caffè lungo_ in English, I think coffee aficionados say _short_ and _long_, respectively. I've been to some higher-end cafés (by which I don't mean fancy; just cafés that _really_ care about coffee, almost to a snobbish extent), where when I order an espresso, they ask, "Short or long?" Good to know!
> 
> So for espresso machines, the amount of coffee pretty much always stays the same; it's the time, and hence amount of water, that is variable. A short shot will have less total volume than a long shot. Right.
> 
> In the case of a moka pot, the amount of water, and hence the brewing time, is always the same; it's the amount of coffee that is variable. As such, the volume of coffee made is always the same. No, you can put more or less water in a moka pot, just as you can put more or less coffee in it and the volume is therefore different. A _caffè lungo_ is too watery for my taste!
> But in my experience in Italian homes, the person making the coffee just fills her up, sets her on the stovetop, and voilà - no questions asked. That's very true and no-one would be rude enough to tell someone how to make coffee in their own home, but we at home are known for making very strong coffee, so particular friends of ours will often ask for a "caffè lungo" (given that we prefer to use two smaller moka pots rather than one big one in any case, so we make a pot for them and a pot for us).


Canto, perdonami, ho letto male!


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## effeundici

brian said:


> Of course, the problem is that many people, even so-called "baristas", don't _really_ know what's going on in the espresso machines. Nowadays, if I'm not mistaken, places like Starbucks have one-touch button-operated espresso machines, so that the employees don't even have to think, and it makes a "perfect" (i.e. commercially identical) shot every time.


 
This is very good when you have espresso outside Italy. I am having perfect espressos in southern Serbia these days.

P.S. Do you know that in Trieste _espresso_ is called _nero_ and _cappuccino_ is actually a _caffè macchiato_? If you want _a cappuccino_ you have to ask for _a cappuccino grande. _


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## canto66

london calling said:


> Canto, perdonami, ho letto male!




;-))
nessun problema, 
I'll teach about coffee since years...


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## Teerex51

canto66 said:


> ;-))
> I'll teach about coffee since years...



Che vuol dire in italiano?


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## Yulan

Blackman said:


> Che thread irresistibile....
> 
> Aggiungo solo un paio di cose che mi sembra abbiate dimenticato.
> 
> Caffettiera napoletana. Diversa da tutte le altre, fa un caffè tipo filter o brewed.
> Caffè al vetro. Un banale espresso servito in un bicchierino, per chi non sopporta la tazzina bollente.
> L'acqua. Secondo i più smaliziati connoisseurs e' l'elemento fondamentale, per un ottimo caffè, a prescindere dalla macchina usata. Molti ritengono che l'acqua di Napoli sia imbattibile ( concordo in pieno...).
> 
> Ho bevuto espressi un po' in tutto il mondo e non sono mai riuscito a trovarne uno uguale a quello che si beve quotidianamente in Italia. Neppure quando fatto da italiani con caffè e attrezzature italiane.
> A volte mi sembra di essere rimasto l'unico in Italia a prendere un espresso "normale". Ho visto perfino qualcuno correggerlo al vino bianco....


 

Ciao B.! 
Non sei rimasto solo ... anch'io sono per l'espresso ... ossia _"a real espresso ... what else?"_  

Vista la tua esperienza, se mi inviti a prendere un caffè ... I would not say no to it! 

Felice Anno Nuovo


_P.S.: Sorry per l'avatar raccapricciante (temporaneo) ... è una storia lunga ... sto partecipando alla burla spagnola del 28 Dicembre ..._


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## italy74

brian said:


> The most important difference, for me, between a _moka_ and the espresso machine described above is that the moka _cannot_ produce that sweet _crema_ of which I am so fond.
> Brian


 
False. For sure it's EASIER to get cream from a good coffee machine, yet moka may result more versatile ( I didn't know about the "universitary coffee" btw) since you may do even BETTER cream in this way. 

First of all, if you like a STRONG coffee, you should put LESS water into the moka tank AND out-press the coffee powder inside its container, i.e. you should put a tad more coffee (1/8" - 1/4" inch tall) than theoretically allowed by the container. 

Second, as soon as the very first coffee drops come out from the moka, 
spill them into a separate glass where you put some sugar (starting with 2 and half little spoons and adding one more little spoon for everyone drinking the coffee). At this point get a spoon or whatever kitchen tool and start to whip the mix of sugar and coffee until it becomes fluid and cream. The right quantity is given by experience: not so few coffee (too hard to whip), nor so much (too liquid). Of course too much sugar will result in a too sweet coffee, here everything depends on your taste. 

Third: when the coffee has come up entirely, get it and put into the glass where you prepared the cream so that they blend together and the cream remains on top. 

Fourth: serve in small cups (at my wife's place, in southern Italy, coffee is less than 1/4" inch tall) and drink some fresh water added with gas first (so that your mouth, tongue and overall taste is reset to its optimum state to enjoy the coffee just prepared): you can take some cream from the top and put into the cups before or after spilling the coffee so that a different result is achieved. Up to you. 

Coffee machines are easy and comfortable to use but it's like the ease of digital photography with the pleasure you have while shooting film, cocking the shutter and rewinding later (manual moka); besides mokas let you enjoy both smell and the sound of the coffee coming up.. here best coffee ads use cleverly that unmistakable sound.


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## brian

Hi italy74,

Yes, I know about that trick to make crema from a moka, but I don't take sugar in my coffee - so that's that. 

The crema from a real espresso machine has a natural sweetness that I enjoy. Moka pots don't produce this naturally, and if you add sugar to make it, it's too sweet and very different, in my opinion.

Of course, that's not to say I don't love coffee from a moka. I do. I just consider a different style of coffee from the espresso served at bars.


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## plabrocca

brian said:


> Hi italy74,
> 
> Yes, I know about that trick to make crema from a moka, but I don't take sugar in my coffee - so that's that.
> 
> The crema from a real espresso machine has a natural sweetness that I enjoy. Moka pots don't produce this naturally, and if you add sugar to make it, it's too sweet and very different, in my opinion.
> 
> Of course, that's not to say I don't love coffee from a moka. I do. I just consider a different style of coffee from the espresso served at bars.



Try a Brikka pot to get nice crema. It makes coffee closest to espresso without using an espresso machine.


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## stella_maris_74

MODERATION NOTE

Amici,
please keep in mind that we're still a *language *forum *only*. Further comments that are not strictly related to language aspects in this thread will be deleted.

Thank you


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## fabri85

london calling said:


> Getting back to _caffè ristretto_ and _caffè lungo_, I'm not sure how I would express the difference between the two in English:


well, coffee (for lungo) and espresso (for ristretto) usually work. I have never and EVER drunk a coffee in a UK cafè. If I don't have a coffee machine with me I'll just buy Nescafè, (strangely) I like it.


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## london calling

fabri85 said:


> well, coffee (for lungo) and espresso (for ristretto) usually work. I have never and EVER drunk a coffee in a UK cafè. If I don't have a coffee machine with me I'll just buy Nescafè, (strangely) I like it.


You might be writing English, but you're thinking in italian!

_Coffee_ (in the UK)  could mean anything from espresso through instant and filter, especially to the older generation - the younger generation are more au fait with the Italian names.

Plus, there's a difference between a  _caffè ristretto _and _caffè lungo_: both are expresso coffees, but I would expect a _caffe lungo_ (brodaglia!) in a bar in the north of Italy and a _caffè ristretto_ in the South, although that's not always true of course.


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