# when you are <having> <have> a bad day



## kansi

❶What to do when you *are having* a bad day
❷What to do when you *have* a bad day

I just came across a website in which ❶ is listed.
Then just wonder what is the difference in meaning ❶ and ❷(which is the "have" version of ❶. What is it?

Probably how the speaker see the situation makes the difference.
Give me comments on it.
Thank you!


----------



## lingobingo

The idiomatic construction is to “be having a bad day”. Version 2 is not what people normally say.


----------



## kansi

lingobingo said:


> The idiomatic construction is to “be having a bad day”. Version 2 is not what people normally say.


Is there any correct time to say "when you have a bad day"?


----------



## Steven David

kansi said:


> Is there any correct time to say "when you have a bad day"?




Phrase number one is likely the more common of the two.

Phrase number two is correct and possible.

The phrase, "when you have a bad day", is possible in a sentence like this:

"When you have a bad day, this is what you should do." <<

This speaks of the experience of a bad day in general, not a bad day that's in progress.

❶What to do when you *are having* a bad day <<

This phrase focuses on the idea that the day is in progress. And it is likely the more common and usual of the two. We often use the progressive form of "have", "having", to speak of the "experience of something".

They're having lunch.
They're having a good time.
They're having a meeting about this now.
*They're having a bad day.*

❷What to do when you *have* a bad day <<

This phrase does not focus on the idea that the day is in progress. Of the two, it is probably less common and less likely.


----------



## kansi

Steven David said:


> Phrase number one is likely the more common of the two.
> 
> Phrase number two is correct and possible.
> 
> The phrase, "when you have a bad day", is possible in a sentence like this:
> 
> "When you have a bad day, this is what you should do." <<
> 
> This speaks of the experience of a bad day in general, not a bad day that's in progress.
> 
> ❶What to do when you *are having* a bad day <<
> 
> This phrase focuses on the idea that the day is in progress. And it is likely the more common and usual of the two. We often use the progressive form of "have", "having", to speak of the "experience of something".
> 
> They're having lunch.
> They're having a good time.
> They're having a meeting about this now.
> *They're having a bad day.*
> 
> ❷What to do when you *have* a bad day <<
> 
> This phrase does not focus on the idea that the day is in progress. Of the two, it is probably less common and less likely.


Thank you!
So when I say ❷, I shouldn't be having a bad day, right?


----------



## Steven David

kansi said:


> Thank you!
> So when I say ❷, I shouldn't be having a bad day, right?




No, not exactly.

With phrase number two, the focus is on the idea that the day exists but not that the day progresses or is in progress.

Both phrases mean the same thing. It's a question of where the focus is placed. It's a question of how someone views the time: 1) an experience that's in progress 2) an experience that exists at the moment or now.

They are both correct and mean the same thing. Phrase number one is the more likely, common, and usual of the two.

This is speaking specifically of the phrases when we compare them.

The examples sentence I gave with the phrase, "when you have a bad day", is a different context.

The phrases you gave as examples are like titles.


----------



## kansi

Steven David said:


> 1) an experience that's in progress 2) an experience that exists at the moment.


1) means that I am experiencing a bad day *right now*.
2) means that I experienced bad days *in the past*.

is this what you mean?
I almost understand it.


----------



## Steven David

kansi said:


> 1) means that I am experiencing a bad day *right now*.
> 2) means that I experienced bad days *in the past*.
> 
> is this what you mean?
> I almost understand it.



No, that's not what I mean. It's just a question of where the focus is placed in each phrase.

The simple form can mean that it's happening now just like the progressive form. However, the progressive form is more common, especially for a sentence like this with the verb "have". We use "have" to speak of the experience of something. When we use "have" to speak of possession, for example, then we do not use the progressive form.

When we use "have" to speak of the experience of something, we often use the progressive form. However, this is not a rule.

The idea is where the focus is in each phrase and which one is more common.

Phrase number one is more common and focuses on the experience in progress.

Phrase number two is less common than sentence number one and focuses on the idea that the experience exists.


----------



## kansi

Steven David said:


> focuses on the idea that the experience exists.


oh I see...it's just talking about it as the general idea. It doesn't say that the speaker is experiencing it.The speaker might be experiencing it.But it doesn't say it yet.


----------



## Steven David

This is only in the context of the phrases that you posted. These are not sentences.

This is only to say that both are possible, but number one is more likely, more common, and more usual. After this, it's possible to describe each phrase by speaking of the focus of each one. This is to describe the difference between the two. The difference between the two is only that number one is more common and usual, and number one places the focus on a bad day in progress. Often, this is how we use the verb "have" to speak of the experience of something. We use "have" in the progressive form. Your phrases do not have any particular reference to past, present, or future. They are like titles and can refer to time in general. To gain a better understanding of the difference between the two, you should use complete sentences, not phrases. And this would be another topic, though related.

This is what I posted previously.

❶What to do when you *are having* a bad day <<

This phrase focuses on the idea that the day is in progress. And it is likely the more common and usual of the two. We often use the progressive form of "have", "having", to speak of the "experience of something".

❷What to do when you *have* a bad day <<

This phrase does not focus on the idea that the day is in progress. Of the two, it is probably less common and less likely.

__________


You asked when it was possible to use "when you have a bad day". I gave an example sentence for that.

Your examples are phrases, not complete sentences. This makes them more like titles. They could be titles.

"When you have a bad day" is a clause, a dependent clause. The example I provided uses this as a dependent clause, not as part of the phrase you posted as an example.


----------



## kansi

I still fully don't get the difference between


Steven David said:


> the experience in progress.



and



Steven David said:


> the idea that the experience exists.



Could you explain it one more time?

Thank you!


----------



## Steven David

kansi said:


> I still fully don't get the difference between
> 
> and
> 
> Could you explain it one more time?
> 
> Thank you!




Could you tell me which part you don't understand? Then I'll have an idea of how to re-explain it.


----------



## JJXR

Steven David said:


> The phrase, "when you have a bad day", is possible in a sentence like this:
> 
> "When you *have* a bad day, this is what you should do." <<


But it's also possible to say:

When you*'re having* a bad day, this is what you should do.

Am I right?


----------



## Steven David

JJXR said:


> But it's also possible to say:
> 
> When you*'re having* a bad day, this is what you should do.
> 
> Am I right?




Yes, you are right. This sentence is also correct.


----------



## JJXR

Thanks for the response, Steven David.


----------



## kansi

Steven David said:


> Could you tell me which part you don't understand? Then I'll have an idea of how to re-explain it.


Thank you!

*The experience in progress* and *the idea that the experience exists *should mean different but I can't really explain to myself at what part they mean different.


----------



## zaffy

kansi, you might want to look at this : I drink lots of water when I'm working out


----------



## Steven David

kansi said:


> Thank you!
> 
> *The experience in progress* and *the idea that the experience exists *should mean different but I can't really explain to myself at what part they mean different.




They don't always necessarily mean something entirely different.

Let's go back to the original phrases, which are like titles.

Phrase number 1 focuses our attention on the idea of such a day in progress.

Phrase number 2 does not focus our attention on the idea of such a day in progress. Phrase number 2 simply tells us that such a day exists, or it tells us that such days exist.

❶What to do when you *are having* a bad day
❷What to do when you *have* a bad day

Both phrases really communicate the same thing. It's a question of where our focus is. In the context of these two phrases, that's really the only difference. In other situations, then, yes, there is a difference between the simple form and the progressive form. It's a question of how we view the time. (Present progressive is an aspect of present, and, *in this case*, present progressive does not affect our understanding of the meaning.)

I would say the same thing about the following two sentences, as well. They communicate the same thing, and it's simply a question of where a speaker or a writer places the focus.

When you are having a bad day, take a few deep breaths and relax.

When you have a bad day, take a few deep breaths and relax.


----------



## PaulQ

What to do when you *have* a bad day:
All simple forms of the verb indicate an action as a whole - from start to finish.
The simple form of the verb can indicate a habitual or regular action that
(i)                  is/was/will be complete/completed each time it is undertaken. ->
A: What do you do to keep fit?
B: I ride a bike. -> “ride” includes everything from getting on the bike at the start of the journey to getting off the bike at the end.

Or
(ii)                a single, complete or completed present, future, or past action:
He told me that I had to visit the Eiffel Tower, so I go/went/will go to Paris on Wednesday” -> “go/went/will go” includes everything from the decision being made, bags being packed, going to the airport, etc., to the arrival in Paris.

What to do when you *are having* a bad day:
All continuous participles indicate an action (or a regular, frequent or habitual series of action) that is in progress and was not complete _at the time referred to_. The action is happening at the time referred to.

Use the continuous form for an action that is/was incomplete and in progress at the time that is being referred to (it has started but it has not yet finished) ->
I will be/am/was/have been/had been riding a bike = I will be/am/was/have been/had been in the process of riding a bike but have not yet finished riding the bike at the time I am referring to.

The continuous form used to be known as “the imperfect”: It was called “imperfect” because the action had not been “perfected” i.e. it had not finished.

OED 5. _Grammar_. Applied to a tense which denotes action going on but not completed; usually [edit Q- but not always] to the _past_ tense of incomplete or progressive action.

1871   H. J. Roby _Gram. Latin Lang._ §549   Three [tenses] denoting incomplete action; the Present, Future, and Imperfect (sometimes called respectively, present imperfect, future imperfect, past imperfect).


----------



## kansi

zaffy said:


> kansi, you might want to look at this : I drink lots of water when I'm working out


Thank you! that your post is also helpful.

by the way, in your post, the sentence like whenever I come back home, my dog sleeps in the armchair does sound weird for me too..
the action of coming back home is just a moment unlike the action of working out in a gym, so it sounds like the moment when you come back home, you dog starts sleeping and keep sleeping till the moment of your coming back is done, which is against the concept of any type of sleeping.it's  too short even for a nap.

So that would be a reason why it's weird.

This is just a comment from one non native English speaker. it might be not true. So would be just a small crack for you to fully understand what you asked in your post, later.


----------



## kansi

Steven David said:


> They don't always necessarily mean something entirely different.
> 
> Let's go back to the original phrases, which are like titles.
> 
> Phrase number 1 focuses our attention on the idea of such a day in progress.
> 
> Phrase number 2 does not focus our attention on the idea of such a day in progress. Phrase number 2 simply tells us that such a day exists, or it tells us that such days exist.
> 
> ❶What to do when you *are having* a bad day
> ❷What to do when you *have* a bad day
> 
> Both phrases really communicate the same thing. It's a question of where our focus is. In the context of these two phrases, that's really the only difference. In other situations, then, yes, there is a difference between the simple form and the progressive form. It's a question of how we view the time. (Present progressive is an aspect of present, and, *in this case*, present progressive does not affect our understanding of the meaning.)
> 
> I would say the same thing about the following two sentences, as well. They communicate the same thing, and it's simply a question of where a speaker or a writer places the focus.
> 
> When you are having a bad day, take a few deep breaths and relax.
> 
> When you have a bad day, take a few deep breaths and relax.



Thank you so much..
I think I fully understand it and I wasn't sure that my understanding was correct but now I think that is correct.

Thank you so much again.

By the way does the same all apply to these sentences with *if* clauses below?(Do I need to make another post?)

(1)If you *are having* a party, you need to ensure a safe environment for all your guests.
(2)If you *have* a party, you need to ensure a safe environment for all your guests.


----------



## Steven David

You're welcome, kansi.

The same *could* apply to these two sentences. However, I'd say this requires another post.


----------



## zaffy

"I never feel safe when Tom is driving"  - Will this sentence work equally natural with the present simple, i.e., "I never feel safe when Tom drives."?


----------



## lingobingo

Both are fine and normal. But there’s a clear nuance.

I never feel safe *when Tom is driving* — during the time when he’s driving

I never feel safe *when Tom drives* — on any occasion when it’s Tom (rather than someone else) in the driver’s seat


----------



## zaffy

And with 'whenever', also both are fine?

-I feel unsafe whenever Tom is driving.
-I feel unsafe whenever Tom drives.


----------



## taraa

lingobingo said:


> Both are fine and normal. But there’s a clear nuance.
> 
> I never feel safe *when Tom is driving* — during the time when he’s driving
> 
> I never feel safe *when Tom drives* — on any occasion when it’s Tom (rather than someone else) in the driver’s seat


Sorry lingobingo, in the second sentence there isn't any naunce about during the time, right?


----------



## lingobingo

The continuous/progressive aspect is used specifically to imply duration/continuity. That’s its purpose.

There is no such implication if use the *simple* past. That’s what’s meant by the “simple” aspect in a verb — its purpose is to state a fact in a *simple* (basic) way without any other implication.


----------



## taraa

lingobingo said:


> The continuous/progressive aspect is used specifically to imply duration/continuity. That’s its purpose.
> 
> There is no such implication if use the *simple* past. That’s what’s meant by the “simple” aspect in a verb — its purpose is to state a fact in a *simple* (basic) way without any other implication.


Thanks a lot for the good explanation!
I just was confused by "when+dimple/continuous"


----------



## kansi

taraa said:


> Thanks a lot for the good explanation!
> I just was confused by "when+dimple/continuous"





lingobingo said:


> Both are fine and normal. But there’s a clear nuance.
> 
> I never feel safe *when Tom is driving* — during the time when he’s driving
> 
> I never feel safe *when Tom drives* — on any occasion when it’s Tom (rather than someone else) in the driver’s seat


the sentence 2 here means that I
never feel safe at any occasion Tom drives : I never feel safe when
he starts to drive, I never feel safe when he finishs driving and I never feel safe when he is driving?


----------



## lingobingo

I don’t understand that question. And you’ve used unsafe rather than safe, which completely changes the meaning.

I never feel safe *when* Tom drives ​=​I never feel safe if Tom (rather than someone else) is the driver​I don’t feel safe *on those occasions when* Tom drives​*Whenever* Tom drives, I feel unsafe​


----------



## zaffy

So can you please explain 'whenever'? Does it go with the present continuous like 'when' does? 

"I drink lots of water when I'm exercising"   - I know that is correct. 
"I drink lots of water whenever I'm exercising"  - But how about that one?


----------



## lingobingo

Yes, they work the same way, except that *whenever* doesn’t work as a relative adverb (the day when we met  / the day whenever we met ).


----------



## zaffy

And how about habitual actions with _when_, _while_ and _whenever_; the present continuous must or may be used in the following sentences?

-*While* I'm walking the dog, my wife is usually making dinner.  - Correct? I have an impression I must use the present continuous, right?
-*When* I walk the dog, my wife usually makes dinner.     - I have an impression only the present simple works here, am I right?
-*Whenever* I walk the dog, my wife makes dinner.  - The same as above, I have an impression only the present simple works here, am I right?


----------



## lingobingo

The *habitual* actions in those examples are the ones in the second clause (the main clause) of each sentence. The clauses beginning while/when/whenever are adverbials of time.


​


----------



## zaffy

I see, but are the sentences and my thoughts correct as for the sentences in #33?


----------



## PaulQ

zaffy said:


> -*While* I'm walking the dog, my wife is usually making dinner. - Correct? I have an impression I must use the present continuous, right?


Yes - neither action is complete at the time referred to. The addition of "usually" also implied an habitual action.


> -*When* I walk the dog, my wife usually makes dinner. - I have an impression only the present simple works here, am I right?


The "*when*" that you have used is the same as *whenever*. because you have added "*usually*" and used the simple present - thus indicating an habitual/frequent action.


> -*Whenever* I walk the dog, my wife makes dinner. - The same as above, I have an impression only the present simple works here, am I right?


See above.
I can walk the dog at 5 o'clock and we will still eat at 6 o'clock -*When* (= on this occasion that) I walk the dog, my wife can be making dinner.


----------



## zaffy

1. So with 'while' both sentences should use the present continuous in my sentence, the present simple will not fit, right?

2. With 'when' and 'whenever', will the present continuous be correct in any of these clauses?
*When* I'm walking the dog, my wife is (usually) making dinner.
*Whenever* I'm walking the dog, my wife is making dinner.

If I remove the 'usually', will it affect the choice of tense?


----------



## PaulQ

It depends on what you wish to express.


----------



## zaffy

A: Do you walk the dog alone or with your wife?
B: I'd say alone. When/Whenever I (walk) Daisy, my wife (make) dinner.

What are possible tense choices?


----------



## lingobingo

If you have a point to make, choose whatever tenses enable you to make that point. All combinations of present simple and present continuous are possible.


----------



## zaffy

And here? Do both tenses fit?

-When you're buying something, do you pay in cash or by credit card?
-When you buy something, do you pay in cash or by credit card?


----------



## lingobingo

Yes.


----------



## zaffy

Are my interpretations right here?

-Each time I visit him, Tom is drinking beer.    - (has already started drinking before I come round, drinking is in progress)
-Each time I visit him, Tom drinks beer.           -(starts drinking after I enter his place)


----------



## lingobingo

Yes. Again! You obviously understand this usage already. But the meanings are not as cut-and-dried as your explanations suggest. The wider context could well make a difference to what’s implied.


----------



## zaffy

Yes, thanks a lot. The only thing that bothers me is that sometimes both tenses might be used with no or hardly any difference (like with paying/buying above) and sometimes the meaning totally changes (like with the beer). And sometimes only one fits.   English works here totally different from Polish....and possibly all other languages.


----------



## lingobingo

It certainly seems to have a mind of its own!


----------



## kansi

lingobingo said:


> I don’t understand that question. And you’ve used unsafe rather than safe, which completely changes the meaning.
> 
> I never feel safe *when* Tom drives ​=​I never feel safe if Tom (rather than someone else) is the driver​I don’t feel safe *on those occasions when* Tom drives​*Whenever* Tom drives, I feel unsafe​


"when Tom is driving" is specifically taking about during his driving, thus the time doesn't include the time he starts driving and the time he finishs driving?

That's why you said when he is the driver. The time he starts driving and the time he finishs driving are included, when you say when he is the driver?

or it's not as black or white as that?


----------



## Steven David

kansi said:


> "when Tom is driving" is specifically taking about during his driving, thus the time doesn't include the time he starts driving and the time he finishs driving?
> 
> That's why you said when he is the driver. The time he starts driving and the time he finishs driving are included, when you say when he is the driver?
> 
> or it's not as black or white as that?




"when Tom is driving" < This means any time that Tom is driving. It doesn't mean any more or any less than that. It means "at the time that this this is happening".

"when Tom is a driver" < This means any time that Tom is a driver. It doesn't mean any more or less than that. It means "at the time that this happens". 

Here are some example sentences with these dependent clauses. 

The progressive form focuses our attention on the action or activity as an ongoing action or activity. 

The simple form tells us that this action or activity occurs in general. With the simple form, there is no focus on the action or activity as ongoing. 

With the progressive form, there is focus on the action or activity as ongoing. It does not mean that the action or activity is ongoing right now.

A speaker uses the simple form or the progressive form depending on what the speaker's viewpoint of the action or activity is in context. This is an automatic decision, not something someone thinks about.

When Tom is a driver, he can buy his own truck.

When Tom's driving again, he might buy his own truck.

I don't like to be a passenger when Tom drives.

I don't like to be a passenger when Tom is driving.

Whenever Tom drives, I feel unsafe. So I prefer not to be a passenger when Tom drives.

When Tom drives, he always forgets to use his seatbelt.

I told Tom to be more careful when he drives.

I told Tom to be more careful when he's driving.

Whenever Tom drives, he always drives very slowly.

When Tom drives, he's always too cautious.

Whenever Tom is driving, I always read a magazine. I don't like to drive too much.

Whenever Tom drives, I always read a magazine or book. I don't like driving too much.


----------



## lingobingo

I take it you’re referring to my post #24? In which I said…


lingobingo said:


> … there’s a clear nuance.
> 
> I never feel safe *when Tom is driving* — during the time when he’s driving
> 
> I never feel safe *when Tom drives* — on any occasion when it’s Tom (rather than someone else) in the driver’s seat


You’re right. It’s not as black and white as that.

The 1st version can also be read as meaning the same as the 2nd: 

I never feel safe when Tom is driving = if it’s Tom who’s doing the driving​
But it doesn’t work the other way round. To imply duration, you do need to use a continuous tense. 

I never feel safe …​when Tom is driving ​during the time in which Tom drives ​while Tom drives ​when Tom is in the process of driving ​


----------



## Steven David

What do you think about these sentences? 

While Tom drives, I'm going to eat lunch, and when I finish eating lunch, I'll start driving again.

When Tom drives, I can take a nap.


----------



## kansi

lingobingo said:


> I take it you’re referring to my post #24? In which I said…
> 
> You’re right. It’s not as black and white as that.
> 
> The 1st version can also be read as meaning the same as the 2nd:
> 
> I never feel safe when Tom is driving = if it’s Tom who’s doing the driving​
> But it doesn’t work the other way round. To imply duration, you do need to use a continuous tense.
> 
> I never feel safe …​when Tom is driving ​during the time in which Tom drives ​while Tom drives ​when Tom is in the process of driving ​


yes,I was refering your post #24.

I think I get it. you have been saying this though..sorry that I missed it.they mean the same thing but the difference implied is just that the driving one is more focus on the length of time when he does it or it puts more focus on the length of time.

is it right?


----------



## kansi

Steven David said:


> What do you think about these sentences?
> 
> While Tom drives, I'm going to eat lunch, and when I finish eating lunch, I'll start driving again.
> 
> When Tom drives, I can take a nap.


"while Tom drives" sentence feels more the length of time when he does it.

That feel is maybe the difference between when Tom is driving and when Tom drives. They mean the same thing but one is more focused on the length of time than the other.

That's it?


----------



## Steven David

kansi said:


> "while Tom drives" sentence feels more the length of time when he does it.
> 
> That feel is maybe the difference between when Tom is driving and when Tom drives. They mean the same thing but one is more focused on the length of time than the other.
> 
> That's it?



No, I would not say it has to do with the length of time. It only has to do with whether or not a speaker views an action or an activity as continuous or ongoing. There would be something about this action or activity, in context, that causes a speaker to use the progressive form or the simple form.

I would not try to develop a generalization or a rule for using one or the other. I would observe each form in context. And, from there, try to understand why a speaker chose one or the other.

The best thing to do is read, listen, watch movies, and observe the forms in context.

Maybe, you would like a more exact answer or a more definitive answer. However, there really isn't one.

I recommend this website: www.elllo.org. You can hear many different native speakers of English speak, as well as non-native speakers of English. A flag tells you which country someone is from.


----------



## zaffy

Steven David said:


> Whenever Tom is driving, I always read a magazine. I don't like to drive too much.



I know this sentence should be worded like that, however the logic tells us that reading is a simultaneous activity, happening at the same time. For this reason, the sentence should be worded with two continuous forms, i.e.,  “Whenever Tom is driving, I am always reading a magazine. I don't like to drive too much.” Am I talking nonsense?


----------



## Steven David

zaffy said:


> I know this sentence should be worded like that, however the logic tells us that reading is a simultaneous activity, happening at the same time. For this reason, the sentence should be worded with two continuous forms, i.e.,  “Whenever Tom is driving, I am always reading a magazine. I don't like to drive too much.” Am I talking nonsense?




No, I do not believe that you're talking nonsense. But, maybe, one of the grammar books you have referred to talks a little nonsense. I'm just guessing. I don't know.

Whenever Tom is driving, I always read a magazine. << The reason the simple form works here in the second clause is that the action or activity of reading is something we automatically recognize or understand as being ongoing or continual. Reading is not a short action or activity. We usually read for at least a few minutes. And, of course, we can read longer than a few minutes.

(For now, I'll have to presume that you have gotten a lot of information from grammar method books. Most of that is all good information, and some of it, now and then, is not so good.)

So it could be that English as a foreign language grammar books and English as a second language grammar books sometimes simplify things in order to provide English language learners with simple rules to follow. And sometimes these rules are not really rules. Rules and structure can provide us with a false sense of security. We really have to explore the language.

And then an English language teacher who is in possession of one of these books decides that the book is correct and forgets about how they really speak their very own language. This sort of thing can happen, I've heard. So that there's no misunderstanding, I will also say that these books are good. Both English language learners and English language teachers require some guidelines and structure. However, they are not the end-all in all instances all the time. (the thing that is final or definitive - Google definition)

So, no, both clauses do not have to be continuous or progressive. We can understand that an activity or an action is in progress even when we use the simple form. It depends on the action or the activity and speaker viewpoint in a particular context.

With some verbs or actions, we have no choice. We have no choice because some actions are very short. It depends on the action or activity, but sometimes it's really not possible, or very difficult, to use present progressive or past progressive with a very short action or activity.

Here are some example sentences.

Whenever Tom drives, I turn on the radio.

Whenever Tom drives, I'm the one that decides what music to listen to.

Whenever Tom is driving, I always feel nervous because he's not a very careful driver. < It's really not necessary, and I don't think it would sound good, to use present progressive for the second clause. Feeling nervous is a state or condition, and it's not necessary to use present continuous  with this verb. It's possible, but in this sentence I believe the simple form is better. As for the first clause, a speaker uses the progressive form because that's how a speaker views the action or activity in that particular context at the time of speaking. The speaker imagines Tom driving as a continual and temporary action or activity. And, of course, it makes sense to view the action or activity of driving in that way. Driving is not a short action or activity.

While Tom was driving, I I turned on the radio.

Whenever Tom is driving, I always get a headache. < It's not necessary to use present progressive in the second clause. We don't usually think of a headache as something we progressively get. We just notice that we have a headache.

Whenever Tom drives, I always get a headache. < This is also correct because we can understand that the action or activity of driving is ongoing or continual. We do not need present progressive to understand this.

Now, talking on the phone is a longer activity. It's not necessarily a short activity, though we can use the simple form with this action, as well.

While Tom was driving, I was talking on the phone.

While Tom was driving, I talked on the phone. << It's not necessary to use the progressive form here in the second clause because we automatically view the action or activity of "talk" as something that is continual. In other words, it's not a short action or activity. We can perceive this action is ongoing without using present continuous.

It really comes down to how a speaker views an action or an activity in context at the moment.


----------



## kansi

Steven David said:


> No, I do not believe that you're talking nonsense. But, maybe, one of the grammar books you have referred to talks a little nonsense. I'm just guessing. I don't know.
> 
> Whenever Tom is driving, I always read a magazine. << The reason the simple form works here in the second clause is that the action or activity of reading is something we automatically recognize or understand as being ongoing or continual. Reading is not a short action or activity. We usually read for at least a few minutes. And, of course, we can read longer than a few minutes.
> 
> (For now, I'll have to presume that you have gotten a lot of information from grammar method books. Most of that is all good information, and some of it, now and then, is not so good.)
> 
> So it could be that English as a foreign language grammar books and English as a second language grammar books sometimes simplify things in order to provide English language learners with simple rules to follow. And sometimes these rules are not really rules. Rules and structure can provide us with a false sense of security. We really have to explore the language.
> 
> And then an English language teacher who is in possession of one of these books decides that the book is correct and forgets about how they really speak their very own language. This sort of thing can happen, I've heard. So that there's no misunderstanding, I will also say that these books are good. Both English language learners and English language teachers require some guidelines and structure. However, they are not the end-all in all instances all the time. (the thing that is final or definitive - Google definition)
> 
> So, no, both clauses do not have to be continuous or progressive. We can understand that an activity or an action is in progress even when we use the simple form. It depends on the action or the activity and speaker viewpoint in a particular context.
> 
> With some verbs or actions, we have no choice. We have no choice because some actions are very short. It depends on the action or activity, but sometimes it's really not possible, or very difficult, to use present progressive or past progressive with a very short action or activity.
> 
> Here are some example sentences.
> 
> Whenever Tom drives, I turn on the radio.
> 
> Whenever Tom drives, I'm the one that decides what music to listen to.
> 
> Whenever Tom is driving, I always feel nervous because he's not a very careful driver. < It's really not necessary, and I don't think it would sound good, to use present progressive for the second clause. Feeling nervous is a state or condition, and it's not necessary to use present continuous  with this verb. It's possible, but in this sentence I believe the simple form is better. As for the first clause, a speaker uses the progressive form because that's how a speaker views the action or activity in that particular context at the time of speaking. The speaker imagines Tom driving as a continual and temporary action or activity. And, of course, it makes sense to view the action or activity of driving in that way. Driving is not a short action or activity.
> 
> While Tom was driving, I I turned on the radio.
> 
> Whenever Tom is driving, I always get a headache. < It's not necessary to use present progressive in the second clause. We don't usually think of a headache as something we progressively get. We just notice that we have a headache.
> 
> Whenever Tom drives, I always get a headache. < This is also correct because we can understand that the action or activity of driving is ongoing or continual. We do not need present progressive to understand this.
> 
> Now, talking on the phone is a longer activity. It's not necessarily a short activity, though we can use the simple form with this action, as well.
> 
> While Tom was driving, I was talking on the phone.
> 
> While Tom was driving, I talked on the phone. << It's not necessary to use the progressive form here in the second clause because we automatically view the action or activity of "talk" as something that is continual. In other words, it's not a short action or activity. We can perceive this action is ongoing without using present continuous.
> 
> It really comes down to how a speaker views an action or an activity in context at the moment.


I maybe understand it when you said it all depends on how someone sees an action-whether or not it's continuours (an action that has started and hasn't finished yet at the time s/he asks or just such an action that s/he see an action as.)

Now that I got this new point of view, I will go with it reading books. I really appreciate your detail explaination.


----------

