# has ever said



## Karen123456

My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.

Is 'ever' correctly used?

Thanks in advance.


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## mplsray

Karen123456 said:


> My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
> 
> Is 'ever' correctly used?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



_Ever_ might be used that way in some poetry, but in ordinary speech or writing, one would say, "My teacher has always said that she doesn't enjoy teaching."


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## cy3

Actually, _ever _is used commonly as an adverb, but I'm not going to argue that it's more common than mplsray's suggestion.

Examples:
_an ever-present danger_ (Random House Dictionary 2009)

_Have you ever seen anything like it?_ (Random House 2009)

_He is ever ready to find fault._ (Random House 2009)

The last is the same as Karen123456's sentence:
He = my teacher
is = has said
to find fault = that she doesn't enjoy teaching


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## jonjonsin

My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.

First, I don't think this right. I'm not sure I understand what this is supposed to mean.

Changing it as little possible I would write:

"My teacher has never said that she doesn't enjoy teaching."

I'm not sure if this has the intended meaning though. She either said it or she didn't. If she did, I would simply write, "My teacher has said that she doesn't enjoy teaching." Does that help?


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## cy3

jonjonsin said:


> My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
> 
> First, I don't think this right. I'm not sure I understand what this is supposed to mean.


 

It is right. No worries.

To help yourself understand it, try thinking of it this way:
-Know the meaning of "never".
-Know the meaning of "not".
-Never = not ever

There's your equation, now you can remember


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## jonjonsin

cy3 said:


> It is right. No worries.
> 
> To help yourself understand it, try thinking of it this way:
> -Know the meaning of "never".
> -Know the meaning of "not".
> -Never = not ever
> 
> There's your equation, now you can remember



It still doesn't sound right to my ears. What trips me up is that saying "I don't enjoy teaching." takes a short amount of time. Ever would imply a continuous aspect, but there is "has said" meaning the action is over. I could accept "has rarely said" or "was ever saying".

My point is that "has said" is a one time completed action and the "ever" contradicts that.


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## sound shift

I don't hear the people around me use "ever" in this way, either in speech or in writing. It does not sound idiomatic to me. I think anyone hearing this sentence would be uncertain about the intended meaning: "never" or its opposite, "always"?


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## cy3

jonjonsin said:


> My point is that "has said" is a one time completed action and the "ever" contradicts that.


 
So this sentence appears unusual to you:

_He has always driven that car._

because "'has driven' is a one time completed action" and "always" contradicts it?


No.

There is no adverb that cannot be used in a certain tense. That's like saying you can't describe a car as "red" when it's "moving"; it is completely ridiculous.


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## jonjonsin

cy3 said:


> So this sentence appears unusual to you:
> 
> _He has always driven that car._
> 
> because "'has driven' is a one time completed action" and "always" contradicts it?
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> There is no adverb that cannot be used in a certain tense. That's like saying you can't describe a car as "red" when it's "moving"; it is completely ridiculous.



I was talking about "ever".

Would you say, "He has ever driven that car." If so, what do you mean by it?


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## johndot

cy3 said:


> There is no adverb that cannot be used in a certain tense. That's like saying you can't describe a car as "red" when it's "moving"; it is completely ridiculous.



The first sentence: does it mean that any adverb may be used with any tense? If I’ve understood the sentence correctly, then the statement is not right.
 
The second sentence: it’s perfectly ok to describe a car as ‘red’ when it’s moving, because ‘red’ is not an adverb.


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## Adam Cruge

jonjonsin said:


> It still doesn't sound right to my ears. What trips me up is that saying "I don't enjoy teaching." takes a short amount of time. Ever would imply a continuous aspect, but there is "has said" meaning the action is over. I could accept "has rarely said" or "was ever saying".
> 
> My point is that "has said" is a one time completed action and the "ever" contradicts that.



Hello JonJonSin,
 St first I want to clearify that "has said" is not "one time completed action" according to Grammatical rule, it would be "one time conpleted action" if it is written like that "is said"....For example : If you say " She has gone to her father's place" mean she started journey sometime back but not returned  or reached her destination and the action "gone" is not completed...But if you would have said "She went to her father's place" then the action "go" is completed....

And as for the Thread starter the sentence is quiet right as "ever" is an adverb and it is used to qualify the verb of that sentence as other adverbs do....

Thank you....


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## jonjonsin

Adam Cruge said:


> Hello JonJonSin,
> St first I want to clearify that "has said" is not "one time completed action" according to Grammatical rule, it would be "one time conpleted action" if it is written like that "is said"....For example : If you say " She has gone to her father's place" mean she started journey sometime back but not returned  or reached her destination and the action "gone" is not completed...But if you would have said "She went to her father's place" then the action "go" is completed....
> 
> And as for the Thread starter the sentence is quiet right as "ever" is an adverb and it is used to qualify the verb of that sentence as other adverbs do....
> 
> Thank you....



Ok, I guess it wouldn't necessarily be a one time event, but it is definitely started in the past and has completed. Using your example, "She has gone to her father's place." The action of going is completed at least from the speaker's perspective.

As for the initial post, what does, "My teacher has ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching." mean to you? It doesn't make sense to me.


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## Adam Cruge

Look jojjonsin....
Most of the grammar book say that "has done" is not a complete past , yes you are right from speaker's point of view it is past but you can not say that she reached her destination ...ytou do not have necessary information to say that by that sentence I written above....
And "My teacher has ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching." this sentence is correct and carries a clear meaning....
"ever" means "always" here....and it is an adverb...and the rest explanation about it I already written in my previous post...
Oh but one thing it sounds odd....it must be "My teacher ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching."...According to the Thread starter "ever" is correctly used but tense of the sentence is not correct....

Am I right ?


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## jonjonsin

Adam Cruge said:


> Look jojjonsin....
> Most of the grammar book say that "has done" is not a complete past , yes you are right from speaker's point of view it is past but you can not say that she reached her destination ...ytou do not have necessary information to say that by that sentence I written above....
> And "My teacher has ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching." this sentence is correct and carries a clear meaning....
> "ever" means "always" here....and it is an adverb...and the rest explanation about it I already written in my previous post...
> Oh but one thing it sounds odd....it must be "My teacher ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching."...
> 
> Am I right ?



I get it now.

However, she reaching her destination or not is irrelevant. "Go" has many meanings. The speaker in this case most likely means go in the sense of leaving. So, "She went..." would mean she left in the near past, and "She has gone..." would mean she left further back in the past.

Last thing, I still think the original sentence is ambiguous at best. I would avoid it. I think it has to do with the other use of ever as in "Have you ever...?"


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## johndot

> Originally posted by *Karen123456* (post #1)
> My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
> Is 'ever' correctly used?
> Thanks in advance.


This is where we started; the answer is “No.”


> Originally posted by *mplsray* (post #2)
> _Ever_ might be used that way in some poetry, but in ordinary speech or writing, one would say, "My teacher has always said that she doesn't enjoy teaching."


And this is why it’s wrong. I will add this: there are five (at least) meanings or uses of the word _ever_. Two of those meanings _(‘at any time’_ and _‘always’) _have been confused in this thread. The use of _ever_, (meaning _‘always’_), is now poetic or archaic as a verb-qualifier.


> Originally posted by *cy3* (post #3)(Numbering added)
> Actually, _ever _is used commonly as an adverb, but I'm not going to argue that it's more common than mplsray's suggestion.
> 
> Examples:
> *1 *_an ever-present danger_ (Random House Dictionary 2009)
> 
> *2 *_Have you ever seen anything like it?_ (Random House 2009)
> 
> *3 *_He is ever ready to find fault._ (Random House 2009)
> 
> *4 *The last is the same as Karen123456's sentence:
> He = my teacher
> is = has said
> to find fault = that she doesn't enjoy teaching


These ‘examples’ are valueless, *cy3*, because they all demonstrate different meanings or applications:

*1* _ever-present_ is an adjective which qualifies the noun _‘danger’_;
*2* _ever_ has the meaning, here, of _‘at any time’_ not ‘_always’_; it’s also used in the interrogative (which allows _ever_ a different function);
*3* this is the nearest to the original, but...
*4* it’s not “the same” by any means. _Ever ready_ is an adverb phrase which qualifies the preceding verb _‘to be’_ and not the verb in the succeeding main clause (_to find), _which it would have to do to parallel the original sentence.


> Originally posted by *jonjonsin* (post #14)
> However, she reaching her destination or not is irrelevant. "Go" has many meanings. The speaker in this case most likely means go in the sense of leaving. So, "She went..." would mean she left in the near past, and "She has gone..." would mean she left further back in the past.


No, these are the wrong conclusions. You can quite legitimately say “Ten years ago she went to ABC,” and equally you can refer to her departure 5 minutes ago and say “She has gone to XYZ.” But this is off-topic; to discuss it further, a new thread should be started.

I’ve replied to some other aspects in my post #10.


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## Loob

Neatly summarised, johndot


Adam Cruge said:


> And "My teacher has ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching." this sentence is correct and carries a clear meaning....


I'm afraid it isn't and doesn't, Adam - except perhaps as a line of poetry.


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## cy3

johndot said:


> *4* It’s not “the same” by any means. _Ever ready_ is an adverb phrase which qualifies the preceding verb _‘to be’_ and not the verb in the succeeding main clause (_to find), _which it would have to do to parallel the original sentence.


 
In the context of the question I assert that the similarity DOES provide evidence that "ever" is used correctly.

You are correct in that "ever ready" does not modify "to find", but incorrect in whatever notion you have that this is relevant to the similarity of the two sentences. To explain this, let me remove some gramatically unneeded phrases:

My teacher has ever said.
He is ever ready.

The first sentence uses the present perfect tense (present "be" main verb + past participle "said"). With respect to my earlier comment that adverbs can be implemented across all tenses with no more than occasional logical mishaps, allow me to change the tense of the first sentence to the simple present:

(has said-->says)
My teacher ever says.
He is ever ready.

At this point we clearly see a distinction between the two sentences (one as [subject, "ever", verb], the other as [subject, linking verb, "ever", verb modifier] where "ever" is positioned as such in the interest of avoiding akwardness), however this distinction does not keep "ever" from it's place in the original sentence, "My teacher has ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching." If you're not willing to see the similarity by now (whereby a past participly is similar to an adjective), here's a rock-solid example:

This is thanks to the fact that--back to the dictionaries--"ever" is indeed used as an adverb _in this case_.
Random House Dictionary 2009:
*ever* -- adverb -- continuously: as in "_ever since then_", which is inarguably in the original sentence.


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## johndot

*cy3*: Thanks for taking the time to reply to my queries; however, I really am puzzled by your response. I wrote (post #15) 


> Originally Posted by *johndot*
> *4* It’s not “the same” by any means. _Ever ready_ is an adverb phrase which qualifies the preceding verb _‘to be’_ and not the verb in the succeeding main clause (_to find), _which it would have to do to parallel the original sentence.


You reply: 


> In the context of the question I assert that the similarity DOES provide evidence that "ever" is used correctly.


which is simply a non sequitur.

Let’s compare the two sentences directly, one above the other. The first is Karen123456’s original, and underneath, in red, the sentence you found at Random House. (I am not questioning _at all_ the syntax of the phrase you found at Random House: it’s perfectly ok for anyone to say it wherever it’s appropriate.)

*A - *My teacher has ever......... said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
*B - *_He__...........__ is__....__ever ready __.......__to find fault._

(Before we start, I should point out that if, in *A*, the word _ever_ is a typo for _never_, then we don’t have a difference of opinion because _never_ would be quite normal; it’s the appearance of _ever_ in this position which I and others say is wrong, because _ever_ has long been consigned (and confined) to negatives, questions and poems.)

Where, then, are the similarities in *A* and *B*? Well, they both have subject, verb and object-clause. So, more to the point, where are the dissimilarities?

*A*: The subject is followed by the verb _to say_ in the present perfect, where the auxiliary _has_ and the past participle _said_ have been interrupted by the adverb _ever_ which qualifies the verb.
*B*: The subject is followed by the verb _to be_ in the simple present which is in turn followed by the adverb _ever_ which qualifies the adjective _ready_ which in turn qualifies the subject _he_.

I say: *A* and *B* are not similar.

Finally: there is much else, *cy3*, in your post #17 which I don’t follow, but the final paragraphs


> At this point we clearly see a distinction between the two sentences (one as [subject, "ever", verb], the other as [subject, linking verb, "ever", verb modifier] where "ever" is positioned as such in the interest of avoiding akwardness), however this distinction does not keep "ever" from it's place in the original sentence, "My teacher has ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching." If you're not willing to see the similarity by now (whereby a past participly is similar to an adjective), here's a rock-solid example:
> 
> This is thanks to the fact that--back to the dictionaries--"ever" is indeed used as an adverb _in this case_.
> Random House Dictionary 2009:
> *ever* -- adverb -- continuously: as in "_ever since then_", which is inarguably in the original sentence.


really leave me baffled. Just to take one point: where “inarguably in the original sentence [*A*?]” is the so far undetermined definition of _ever_ “ever since then”?


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## cy3

I know they're not the same sentence. I'm not trying that hard to make it look that way. That was just supposed to be an example to help people understand it. Forget about it, as it seems not to have worked for you.


However, *it stands that there is no evidence that using ever as in the original sentence is "archaic" or "only in poetry".*


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## johndot

Well, surely, it should be easy to provide some contemporary examples, if they exist? And I would be happy to read them and stand down. But if there are none, that would be corroborative, wouldn’t it?


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## cy3

Okay, here you go.
Dictionary.com page for "ever": http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ever.

Note the first entry.

"My teacher has ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching."

Well, looks like we even have a choice for meanings here!

#1 makes sense (at all times; always):
My teacher has at all times said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
My teacher has always said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.

#2 also makes sense (continuously):
My teacher has said continuously that she doesn't enjoy teaching.

The end.


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## johndot

I think you’ve sent the wrong link, *cy3*; I can see nothing on that comprehensive page which supports your view.


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## Loob

johndot said:


> I think you’ve sent the wrong link, *cy3*; I can see nothing on that comprehensive page which supports you view.


Ditto ....


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## cy3

What do you mean? Do these sentences seem wrong to you?

My teacher has at all times said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
My teacher has always said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
My teacher has said continuously that she doesn't enjoy teaching.

Please explain.


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## mplsray

johndot said:


> *1[/FONT]* _ever-present_ is an adjective which qualifies the noun _‘danger’_
> 
> In defense of *cy3* on this point, not only does the Random House Unabridged treat _ever-present_ as an example of the adverb _ever_, but the entry for the adverb _ever_ in the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary has _ever-increasing_ as an example of the adverb _ever_ and the same word, _ever-increasing_, occurs in the Cambridge Dictionary of American English, again in the entry for the adverb _ever_.
> 
> I was able to find only one dictionary I know to have an edited, non-virtual edition which had one of these as a word in itself: The Encarta World English Dictionary, North American ed., had _ever-present_ as an entry. No such dictionary has _every-increasing_ as a separate entry.
> 
> I see no other possible interpretation of this than that the editors of the Random House Unabridged, Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, and the Cambridge Dictionary of American English consider "ever-present" and "ever-increasing" to be, not adjectives in themselves but examples of the adverb _ever_ combined with an adjective by a hyphen, the combination itself not considered to be a separate word.


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## Loob

Ray, can you explain the point you're making in relation to the OP's _My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching?
_


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## mplsray

Loob said:


> Ray, can you explain the point you're making in relation to the OP's _My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching?
> _



*Johndot* posed a challenge to *cy3,* who answered the challenge by citing the entry for _ever_ as an adverb in the Random House Dictionary, Unabridged. *Johndot*'s objection to one part of the answer has been proven to be ill-founded. I thought it was important to set the record straight. 

That particular definition in the  Random House Unabridged Dictionary had another example sentence, "He is ever ready to find fault." I consider that to be the stronger evidence for *cy3*'s point of view. Since *johndot* objected to that example as well, I would not be surprised if he found another objection to "an ever-present danger," but at least he has an opportunity now to avoid an argument based upon a false premise.


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## Rational_gaze

This thread is making my head hurt, so it is with some hesitation that I join in...

"My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching." reads to me exactly the same as "My teacher has *always* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ever

*1. * At all times; always: ever hoping to strike it rich.

As in "He was ever hoping to strike it rich", no? Isn't that just the same?


I wouldn't use it myself, unless I was attempting to sound poetic.


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## Loob

This thread puzzles me.

Since the outset, people have - in effect - been saying that

(1) _ever _is not - except in poetry - used in affirmative sentences as a verb-qualifier with the meaning _always,_ though it is used with this meaning in negative and interrogative sentences;

(2)_ ever_ is used in affirmative, interrogative and negative sentences as an adjective-qualifier with the meaning always, particularly when hyphenated with the adjective. 

This seems fairly straightforward - no?


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## Rational_gaze

Loob said:


> Since the outset, people have - in effect - been saying that
> 
> (1) _ever _is not - except in poetry - used in affirmative sentences as a verb-qualifier with the meaning _always,_ though it is used with this meaning in negative and interrogative sentences;



I think the thread is about whether or not that statement is true, and I don't believe that it is. 

I said I wouldn't personally use it this way unless I was attempting to sound poetic, not that its use should be restricted to poetry.


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## Loob

I'm not sure I understand your distinction, RG - but I suspect we're essentially in agreement - no?


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## Rational_gaze

I'm trying to say that just because something sounds 'poetic' to my ear, it doesn't mean that I believe its use should be rigidly restricted to actual poetry.

I have no objection to sounding a bit poetic in a letter, in an article, in a forum post, etc.

Perhaps I ever wish to sound poetic...


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## Forero

I must say that adverbs cannot all modify all verbs, adjectives, and other adverbs, and their meanings can change in different environments.

For example, I might say "My teacher has since yesterday been saying that she has lost interest in teaching", but I would not say "My teacher has yesterday been saying ...", without the preposition _since_, even though _yesterday_ can in other contexts be an adverb.

To me, "has ever" means "has at any time", not "has always". _Forever_ would mean "always" though:

_My teacher has *forever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
_
On the other hand, when _ever_ modifies an adjective, it can mean "always":

_I shall remain ever faithful to you.

_And for some reason, it can sometimes "hop" over verbs, or even come first in the sentence, without hurting the meaning, and it sounds, well, poetic:
_
I shall ever remain faithful to you.
I ever shall remain faithful to you.
Ever shall I remain faithful to you.

_I just don't think it works this way in all sentences:_

I have been ever faithful to you. 
I have ever been faithful to you. 
I have forever been faithful to you. 

_I am not saying I understand just what is going on here, but that is the way I see it.


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## johndot

> Originally Posted by *Karen123456* http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=7094754#post7094754
> My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
> 
> Is 'ever' correctly used?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 There is the opening post. Does it look right? Is ‘ever’ correctly used? Is it idiomatic? Is it colloquial usage?

When I first read the sentence I thought *Karen123456* had mistyped ‘ever’ for ‘never’—that it should have read “My teacher has *never* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching,” and I would have found that a perfectly satisfactory phrase. But I was wrong. It was clear from the first few replies that the intention had indeed been to write ‘ever’, and I thought the OP should be made aware that this was an unusual usage. This I did in post #15 (and I must admit that my categorical “No [it is not correctly used]” would have been better stated as “No, it’s not idiomatic.”)

Meanwhile, how were other posters responding? (Comments from native English speakers only.)



> *mplsray* post #2 : _Ever_ might be used that way in some poetry, but in ordinary speech or writing, one would say, "My teacher has always said that she doesn't enjoy teaching."
> 
> *jonjonsin* post #4 : [...] First, I don't think this right. I'm not sure I understand what this is supposed to mean.
> Changing it as little possible I would write:
> "My teacher has never said that she doesn't enjoy teaching." [...]
> 
> *cy3 *post #5 : It is right. No worries. [...]
> 
> *sound shift* post #7 : I don't hear the people around me use "ever" in this way, either in speech or in writing. It does not sound idiomatic to me. I think anyone hearing this sentence would be uncertain about the intended meaning: "never" or its opposite, "always"?
> 
> *Loob* post #16 : I'm afraid it isn't [correct] and doesn't [carry a clear meaning], Adam - except perhaps as a line of poetry.
> 
> *cy3 *post #17 : In the context of the question I assert that the similarity DOES provide evidence that "ever" is used correctly. [.........]
> 
> *Rational gaze* post #28 : [...] I wouldn't use it myself, unless I was attempting to sound poetic.


 
There are six (including me) who say the original sentence is at best unidiomatic on the grounds that the construction is only used poetically or for literary style. All agree that ‘ever’ is an adverb.

One poster says the expression “is right” on the grounds that ‘ever’ is an adverb.


> posted by *mplsray*
> *Johndot* posed a challenge to *cy3,* who answered the challenge by citing the entry for _ever_ as an adverb in the Random House Dictionary, Unabridged. *Johndot*'s objection to one part of the answer has been proven to be ill-founded. I thought it was important to set the record straight.
> 
> That particular definition in the Random House Unabridged Dictionary had another example sentence, "He is ever ready to find fault." I consider that to be the stronger evidence for *cy3*'s point of view. Since *johndot* objected to that example as well, I would not be surprised if he found another objection to "an ever-present danger," but at least he has an opportunity now to avoid an argument based upon a false premise.


 In post #20 I asked for “contemporary examples” of the usage we’re discussing to be provided. No parallel examples were given, but I nevertheless gave valid reasons for my objections to those which were not parallel. A Random House citation to the effect that ‘ever’ is an adverb is proof only of something which is not in dispute.


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## Phil-Olly

I often wonder, when people use the expression 'ever so', as in 'She is ever so polite', whether there is any residual meaning of 'always' (She is always so polite), or whether it has simply come to mean 'very'.

c.f.  'Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home.'


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## cy3

Phil-Olly said:


> I often wonder, when people use the expression 'ever so', as in 'She is ever so polite', whether there is any residual meaning of 'always' (She is always so polite), or whether it has simply come to mean 'very'.
> 
> c.f. 'Be it ever so humble, there's no place like home.'


 

That a separate use of the word. Random House Dictionary defines "ever so" as an idiom meaning "to a great extent or degree, exceedingly".


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## cy3

johndot said:


> There is the opening post. Does it look right? Is ‘ever’ correctly used? Is it idiomatic? Is it colloquial usage?


 
Well, don't get carried away with those questions. After all, Karen123456 only asked if it was correct. Wether it is "idiomatic" or "colloquial" is another story.




johndot said:


> There are six (including me) who say...


Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum.
(Voting doesn't decide the truth. If I get five people in a room who all say the sky is plaid, that doesn't mean it is so.)




johndot said:


> No parallel examples were given.


Parallel examples.




johndot said:


> ...I nevertheless gave valid reasons for my objections to those which were not parallel.


So you're saying that even though irrelevant examples were given, you saw the need to object to them? I don't understand this. Maybe it would help if you pointed out what posts you are referring to.




johndot said:


> One poster says the expression “is right” on the grounds that ‘ever’ is an adverb.


Checklist for _ever_ meaning _always_:

_ever_ is an adverb__
_ever-present _means _always present_

Oh wait--you don't even have to agree with those (although you are going to face some serious problems if you don't). *It's in the dictionary. And I've linked to this before. Please read at least the first definition.*


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## Forero

My point in Post #33 is that the original sample sentence does not sound right to me, even for poetry. Though _ever_ can sometimes mean "always", it does not always mean "always".

The problem is with _ever_ in the middle of "has said". Yes, _ever_ is an adverb, but so is _yesterday_. As I see it, neither adverb fits that particular spot in the sample sentence, but "forever" or "since yesterday" would fit it fine.

I am not as categorical as some people about what adverbs can and cannot be used with a perfect tense, but right in the middle of "has said", _ever_ does jar my senses, as would _yesterday_. I have the same issue with _ever_ (at some particular time in the past, pick any) as with _yesterday _(on a particular day in the past).

I think, since _has_ is present tense indicative, that an adverb immediately following it needs to be something that can be construed as present.


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## Loob

I think Karen will have given up on this thread long ago...

Let me just say:
My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching _only OK in poetic or deliberately archaic language_
Has my teacher *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching?
My teacher hasn't *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.

I promise not to post in this thread any more


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## johndot

*cy3* : I reply to your post #37.
You seem to have answered everything with non sequiturs. These Parallel examples. are *not* contemporary examples of the same usage as in the opening post, they are simply the same sentence repeated with alternative adverb phrases in place of the word ‘ever’.

At no time have I said that ‘ever’ is not an adverb. At no time have I said that the word ‘ever’ does not have the meaning _“always”_ (amongst others). What I and others _have _said though is that the original sentence is not idiomatic.

Obviously we shall have to sit on opposite sides of the fence on this one. By all means continue to use ‘ever’ in this fashion if you wish, but I for my part will continue to advise students of English that the usage we have been discussing here, in precisely the structure and word order as given, is poetic, literary or archaic.


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## MJSinLondon

I hardly dare enter this thread... but if I were to read or hear "My teacher has ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching" I would not understand what was meant. If "ever" were to be replaced by "even" or by "never" it would make perfect sense to me.


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## Karen123456

Loob said:


> I think Karen will have given up on this thread long ago...



I'n surprised that my query on 'ever' has been dealt with as such great length by a couple of members and I have following the discussion very closely. It seems 'ever' is a tricky word even to native speakers.


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## cy3

Forero said:


> I think, since _has_ is present tense indicative, that an adverb immediately following it needs to be something that can be construed as present.


 
An interesting thought. I'd do some thinking before stating that I agree with it in all cases, but it does seem to make some sense, at least at first ("I yesterday take out the garbage.") The thing is here, _ever_ can be constructed at present as you explained. Right on!


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## cy3

johndot said:


> The use of _ever_, (meaning _‘always’_), is now poetic or archaic ...


 
This is what you said. You still say this, although you have no evidence, no examples, nothing at all that supports it. You would remain unconvinced, "continuing to advise students of English that the usage...is poetic, literary or archaic", in the face of no less than five (all I could find) dictionaries which state the contrary. See: the Random House Dictionary; the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition; Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary; the Oxford Dictionary of Current English; and the Webster's New World Dictionary.

After finally referencing any of these credible sources, I imagine (we're on page 3 now) it might be a bit of a shock realizing this use of _ever_ is not archaic. For this I can suggest a reportedly obsolete definition of the word that all of you may classify as such in place of _always_. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary cites "or ever", meaning "before" as an archaic implementation of the word. I hope everyone's satisfied now. I know I will be as long as I'm assured that's one fewer mistake we'll be passing on to other English speakers and proto-English-speakers.


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## Philo2009

Karen123456 said:


> My teacher has *ever* said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
> 
> Is 'ever' correctly used?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


 
Acceptable only as a poetic archaism in which 'ever' = 'always'.

If, however, you wish to construct a sentence of normal, contemporary prose (which I assume to be your intention!), 'ever' should be deleted.

'Ever', meaning 'at any time', occurs only in

(1) Interrogative (positive/negative) main clauses, e.g.

_Have(n't) you *ever* been there?_

(2) Certain types of subordinate clause, most commonly if-clauses, e.g.

_If you (should) *ever* see him, please give him my regards._

_I'm not sure if that *ever* actually happened._


'Never', one other hand, can occur in affirmative main clauses:

_I have never said that!_

Philo


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## Forero

Can someone with access to a corpus please find a proper example of "has ever", "have ever", or "had ever" plus past participle? Is _ever_ really used like this in poetry, or was it ever used in literature? I am curious as to the meaning it might have in such a context.


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## Loob

Forero, I have scrutinised all 2319 examples of _{have} ever past-participle_ in the British National Corpus.

Of the 2319 examples (did I mention I'd looked at all of them?), there are a total of three in which 'ever' has the sense of 'always':

_In particular, Marx claimed that "the ruling ideas of each age *have **ever **been *the ideas of its ruling class" _

_The secretiveness of the Alien Office's work makes it difficult to provide details of Brooke's activities: "My duties *have **ever **been *of the most confidential nature," he wrote to R. B. Jenkinson, second Earl of Liverpool, in 1809._

_Moreover the Spirit *has **ever **played* second fiddle to the male Christ within trinitarian theology_

In the remaining 2316, 'ever' follows a comparative or superlative or a phrase with 'first'/'only'/'all' etc; or it's preceded by a negative or equivalent (eg 'few'); or it forms part of a direct or indirect question. 

Some typical examples:

_He was the most perceptive person she *had **ever **met *_
_this was the first time it *had **ever **happened *in ICI since the war_
_He was nearer to the truth than he could *have **ever **known*_
_All the anger she *had **ever **felt *seemed to shrink into no more than fits of petty temper_
_it's as close as I *have **ever **come *to seeing myself and my friends up on the screen_
_No one in our family *has **ever **had *their portrait painted before. _
_How many English people, let alone a wider audience, *have **ever **heard *of this particular affray?_

I leave it to others to judge whether the three BNC examples of 'ever = always' are archaic/ poetic/literary

EDIT: Oops, just remembered I promised not to post again in this thread.
Ah well....


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## cy3

Philo2009 said:


> Acceptable only as a poetic archaism in which 'ever' = 'always'.


 
Please check a dictionary...


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## Philo2009

cy3 said:


> Please check a dictionary...


 
Thank you for your suggestion, but I do not require to check a dictionary to know, as does any educated native, that an uncombined 'ever' in the sense 'always' is an archaism.  

That does not make it _obsolete_, simply a word that is used only to effect a poetical, or more usually humorously grandiloquent, style of speech or writing.

Philo


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## Cagey

Philo2009 said:


> [....]'Ever', meaning 'at any time', occurs only in
> 
> (1) Interrogative (positive/negative) main clauses, e.g.
> 
> _Have(n't) you *ever* been there?_
> 
> (2) Certain types of subordinate clause, most commonly if-clauses, e.g.
> 
> _If you (should) *ever* see him, please give him my regards._
> 
> _I'm not sure if that *ever* actually happened._ [....]


I'm not so sure about the "only".(3) Prohibitions.

_Don't ever do that again!_​Possibly there more.


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## Forero

If the forum will indulge me, I would like to make one more observation.

The usual use of _ever_ is as Loob pointed out in Post #47: in certain negative-type constructions. In such contexts, _ever_ does not mean "always".

_Ever_ only means "always" in positive contexts. I see the first two examples of "have ever" = "have always" that Loob found to be quite understandable and of a high register. 

But the sample sentence sounds quite odd to me:

_         My teacher has ever said that she doesn't enjoy teaching.
_ 
I suspect the problem is the influence of the negative _doesn't_ in the subordinate clause. Logically, that should not exert a negative influence on the main clause, but _ever_ = "always" is rare enough that perhaps this hint of negativity destroys the positive sense for me.

This version sounds fine to me:
_
My teacher has ever decried her life as an educator._

As I see it, the third example Loob found seems to have a minor problem too:
_
Moreover the Spirit *has **ever **played* second fiddle to the male Christ within trinitarian theology._

If there is anything to my "Theory of Negativity", "second fiddle" is barely positive enough to allow _ever_ = "always".


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## Philo2009

Cagey said:


> I'm not so sure about the "only".
> (3) Prohibitions.
> 
> _Don't ever do that again!_​Possibly there more.


 
True.  I had overlooked this on account of semantic identity with 'never (do)'.  Thank you for pointing it out.


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## Philo2009

An amendment to my earlier post, with thanks to Cagey for his perspicacity!

---------------------------------------------------------------

'Ever', meaning 'at any time', occurs only in

(1) Interrogative or negative main clauses, e.g.

_Have(n't) you *ever* been there?_
_Don't *ever* go there!_

(2) Certain types of subordinate clause, most commonly if-clauses, e.g.

_If you (should) *ever* see him, please give him my regards._

_I'm not sure if that *ever* actually happened._

(For examples with other types of subordinate clause, see Loob's excellent post.)


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## Karen123456

Thanks to all who have responded to my post.


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