# Old Style Writing



## Thomas F. O'Gara

Until sometime in the 1920's, I believe, Turkish was written with the Arabic alphabet.

Although I've looked around, I've never run across any information on exactly how Turkish was written with Arabic letters.  Can anybody enlighten me on this, or can point out any web resources on the subject?


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## Chazzwozzer

Hi Thomas,

Adaptation of the Latin alphabet with some Turkish variants is one of the Atatürk's greatest reforms in the fields of culture. Until 1928, Turkish was written in a version of Perso-Arabic script which we now call as Ottoman Turkish Alphabet. 

Here, you can find the details of similar linguistic reform and see how words were written like.

This reform that made for modernization has affected most people's view on any language written in Arabic-script. For details, see my messages on this topic.

There's sometimes a misconception that all Turkic languages once were written in some kind of Arabic-script. Like I said here before, Orkhon is known to be only common alphabet that all Turkic languages once used. Our knowledge about this is very limited, actually. Arabic script, however, was generally used by Turkic peoples who had to come across with Arabians on their immigration route. I believe this kind of generalization wouldn't be too incorrect.

Greetings,
*Ekin *the Turk


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## cherine

Thomas F. O'Gara said:


> Until sometime in the 1920's, I believe, Turkish was written with the Arabic alphabet.
> 
> Although I've looked around, I've never run across any information on exactly how Turkish was written with Arabic letters. Can anybody enlighten me on this, or can point out any web resources on the subject?


Hello Thomas,
Here's a link that seems interesting, but it only lists the letters.
As for the texts, what I know is that Ottoman Turkish was written from right to left (like Arabic) with Arabic letters+ the Persian letters that don't exist in Arabic (ب with 3 dots, ج with three dots...)
There are many manuscripts and old books in this script, I remember who amazed I felt when I first saw a page written in Arabic letters that I couldn't understand (though I don't remember for sure if it was in Turkish or Persian) 
If I find photos of such manuscripts, I'll post it here.


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## Chazzwozzer

Can that be what you are looking for, cherine?


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

Chazzwozzer, Celine:  Thanks for the information.  Chazzwozzer, I had read your earlier comments on Turkish writing with interest.  Of course, the Turkic languages predate the Turks' contact with Islam, and there were other writing forms even aside from Orkhon, including some in Central Asia that I believe were written from top to bottom, right to left, like Chinese.

All of the words on the Wikipedia site are Arabic or Farsi loanwords that once were common in Turkish.  I was interested in seeing what the spelling conventions for writing Turkish words in the Arabic alphabet were.  Do you know of anything on that?


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## cherine

Chazzwozzer said:


> Can that be what you are looking for, cherine?


Well, I had that on my mind, I posted in it  But I was looking for more.
And here's what I could find until now. I'm sorry, the picture is small, but the handwriting is beautiful and elegant. What's more amazing is that there are Arabic words in it  I guess, there was more Arabic words in Ottoman than in Modern Turkish.



Thomas F. O'Gara said:


> Chazzwozzer, Cherine: Thanks for the information.


You're welcome. It's an interesting question 


> All of the words on the Wikipedia site are Arabic or Farsi loanwords that once were common in Turkish. I was interested in seeing what the spelling conventions for writing Turkish words in the Arabic alphabet were. Do you know of anything on that?


As I said, I don't know details, but I think we can compare it to fully transliteratized Turkish texts with Arabic letters, written from right to left, up to down.

Again, if I find more infor I'll post it here.


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## Chazzwozzer

Thomas F. O'Gara said:


> Chazzwozzer, Cherine:  Thanks for the information.  Chazzwozzer, I had read your earlier comments on Turkish writing with interest.  Of course, the Turkic languages predate the Turks' contact with Islam, and there were other writing forms even aside from Orkhon, including some in Central Asia that I believe were written from top to bottom, right to left, like Chinese.


Orkhon were written both right to left and top to bottom, it's what we see on our earliest inscriptions. There might have been more alphabets Turks once used after Orkhon, which looks like Runic alphabet of Germanic languages.



Thomas F. O'Gara said:


> All of the words on the Wikipedia site are Arabic or Farsi loanwords that once were common in Turkish.  I was interested in seeing what the spelling conventions for writing Turkish words in the Arabic alphabet were.  Do you know of anything on that?


Hmmm... That one is interesting and I've never thought about that.

at (horse)
ev (house)
iyi (good)
Tanrı (Tengri)
Random examples. How would they be written in Ottoman times, really?


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## cherine

Chazzwozzer said:


> at (horse)
> ev (house)
> iyi (good)
> Tanrı (Tengri)
> Random examples. How would they be written in Ottoman times, really?


If you accept my guessing (only a guess):
at ات
ev ايف (I don't have the necessary letter, but this letter ف should have three dots instead of one to produce the "v" sound)
iyi ايي
Tanrı تانري


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## sound shift

It's interesting that some of the Ottoman Turkish words in the second link within Chazzwozzer's first post (such as aile and cevap) are still widely used despite the promotion of supposedly purer Turkish replacements.

I believe that Ottoman Turkish was also influenced by Arabic and Persian grammar to an extent. For example there was a street in Istanbul called Bab-i-Humayun, in which the "i" is a definite article if I am not mistaken, whereas modern Turkish does not use a separate word for the definite article. Please put me right if I am wrong.

In Ottoman Turkish the same Arabic letter represented several Turkish vowels, which is one reason behind the switch to Latin characters.


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

Based on the words in Cherine's last post it appears at first blush that Turkish might have used some of the same spelling conventions that Farsi uses for writing in Arabic script, particularly as regards initial vowels.

Chazzwozzer, by the way, the Turkic language with the unusual script I was referring to was Uyghur, which until the 16th century was written in a script that went from top to bottom, left to right. It was apparently adopted from Sogdian, and it replaced the Orkhon script.


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## sound shift

I'm not saying the change of script wasn't necessary, but I still think it's a shame that the Turks were cut off from much of their heritage in this way. It seems that there was little appetite in the westernising mood of the time for the preservation of "eastern" literature, but a good story is a good story, wherever it comes from.


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## Chazzwozzer

cherine said:


> If you accept my guessing (only a guess):
> at ات
> ev ايف (I don't have the necessary letter, but this letter ف should have three dots instead of one to produce the "v" sound)
> iyi ايي
> Tanrı تانري



I searched for ات and it is represented as ât in Latin alphabet. Since I cannot read Arabic, I'll ask my History teacher to take a look at these. He can read and understand Ottoman.



sound shift said:


> It's interesting that some of the Ottoman Turkish words in the second link within Chazzwozzer's first post (such as aile and cevap) are still widely used despite the promotion of supposedly purer Turkish replacements.
> 
> I believe that Ottoman Turkish was also influenced by Arabic and Persian grammar to an extent. For example there was a street in Istanbul called Bab-i-Humayun, in which the "i" is a definite article if I am not mistaken, whereas modern Turkish does not use a separate word for the definite article. Please put me right if I am wrong.
> 
> In Ottoman Turkish the same Arabic letter represented several Turkish vowels, which is one reason behind the switch to Latin characters.


Bâb-i hümayun was a name given to the first door of Topkapı Palace.  It means "Hükümdarın Kapısı" in modern Turkish.



Thomas F. O'Gara said:


> Based on the words in Cherine's last post it appears at first blush that Turkish might have used some of the same spelling conventions that Farsi uses for writing in Arabic script, particularly as regards initial vowels.
> 
> Chazzwozzer, by the way, the Turkic language with the unusual script I was referring to was Uyghur, which until the 16th century was written in a script that went from top to bottom, left to right. It was apparently adopted from Sogdian, and it replaced the Orkhon script.


Thanks for the information. I totally forgot about that. 



sound shift said:


> I'm not saying the change of script wasn't necessary, but I still think it's a shame that the Turks were cut off from much of their heritage in this way. It seems that there was little appetite in the westernising mood of the time for the preservation of "eastern" literature, but a good story is a good story, wherever it comes from.


As a Turk, I'm proud of every single reforms made by Atatürk. Although I cannot understand a word(a letter) in a text written 80 years ago, I'm not unhappy about that. It couldn't be avoided, I still think language reform was one of the greatest of all.


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## Cepkah

*او* Ev is written like that in ottoman. But it can be pronounced like o,ö,u,ü (only in the beginning of the words) and also ''Av'' as well. If you ask how can i find out which one i mean, i can't reply your question when it's written as one word in the context. It sounds different according to the meaning in the context and that makes the ottoman language complicated . Ottoman language and turkish language is the same so their grammar is the same  but for ottoman alphabet there are some certain rules just for writing... 

          Persian words and arabic words are written as they are, such as original(so this made it necessary to learn arabic and persian as a second language) but for turkish words there are some special rules so that make the ottoman alphabet a different alphabet from arabic and persian alphabet*...  
*


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## purpleshehrazade

some of the comments here (about the reforms in Turkey to the written script) forget that the essential nature of a language is for ot to be spoken not writen....writing is an adultration of a language as such....but that is another topic....

I was at an Arabic Calligraphy exhibition recently and the master Calligrapher was from Turkey and so were a few of the students and they actually expressed sadnes at the reform!


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## Chazzwozzer

purpleshehrazade said:


> some of the comments here (about the reforms in Turkey to the written script) forget that the essential nature of a language is for ot to be spoken not writen....writing is an adultration of a language as such....but that is another topic....


 As we are not a primitive tribe living in the middle of the forests, written language is as essential as the spoken.



purpleshehrazade said:


> I was at an Arabic Calligraphy exhibition recently and the master Calligrapher was from Turkey and so were a few of the students and they actually expressed sadnes at the reform!


Did you ask them why? Do they know anything about rising literacy rates brought about by the reform?


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## Alijsh

Let me say that there hasn't been notable contact between Arabic and Turkish especially in compare to Persian and Turkish:

Most of Arabic loanwords that are found in Turkish are thru Persian and Persian loanwords for them. As Ottoman_Turkish article of Wikipedia states, "_Ottoman Turkish's Arabic borrowings were not the result of the direct exposure of the language to Arabic is evidenced by the typically Persian phonological mutation of the words._"
Another source: _Persian language was also the official and cultural language of Ottoman Empire until 16th century, and most of the Ottoman manuscripts of that period were composed and executed in_ _Persian._
Ottoman script is based on Persian version of Arabic script called Perso-Arabic. There's only one letter that we don't have in Persian. Besides, Ottomans used Nasta'liq script which is something common in Persian and later Urdu but not Arabic.



sound shift said:


> I believe that Ottoman Turkish was also influenced by Arabic and Persian grammar to an extent. For example there was a street in Istanbul called Bab-i-Humayun, in which the "i" is a definite article if I am not mistaken, whereas modern Turkish does not use a separate word for the definite article. Please put me right if I am wrong.


Bab-i-Humayun is apparently a Persian expression. Humayun is a Persian name and -i is here genitive marker. It means Gate of Humayun or something like this. I don't think it's enough to talk about a structural influence. Turkish, Persian and Arabic belong to three different language families and they are different in structure; so I don't expect structural influence.


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## Alijsh

Chazzwozzer said:


> Hi Thomas,
> 
> Adaptation of the Latin alphabet with some Turkish variants is one of the Atatürk's greatest reforms in the fields of culture. Until 1928, Turkish was written in a version of Perso-Arabic script which we now call as Ottoman Turkish Alphabet.


I suppose it's related to our topic which is about former writing system of Turkish. So let me ask a question. Can you tell me about constructive consequences of changing script? And haven't you been separated from your past literature? I think those who want to research in Ottoman literature must go and learn Ottoman script (apart from learnig Persian words that have been kicked out). Am I right? I really like to know about it. In Iran they wanted to change the script and I want to see what could happen if we had changed it. Personally speaking, I'm very glad that they didn't manage to change the script (my reasons will add to more off-topic so I don't write them).


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## Chazzwozzer

Alijsh said:


> I suppose it's related to our topic which is about former writing system of Turkish. So let me ask a question. Can you tell me about constructive consequences of changing script? And haven't you been separated from your past literature? I think those who want to research in Ottoman literature must go and learn Ottoman script (apart from learnig Persian words that have been kicked out). Am I right? I really like to know about it. In Iran they wanted to change the script and I want to see what could happen if we had changed it. Personally speaking, I'm very glad that they didn't manage to change the script (my reasons will add to more off-topic so I don't write them).


Ottoman is taught at universities for literature students and high school students like me who has no idea on that alphabet, nor very much about the vocabulary can still clearly understand what the text tells about. Textbooks contain the works in both Romanized Ottoman and Modern Latin-scripted Turkish, so you don't need to learn the alphabet as long as you want to read them in their original script. Literature education at high schools is mandatory and the big part of this subject is about Ottoman literature.

I don't know why they want to change the script in Iran, but I think it should meet the needs of people in the means of literacy. 

It was a new country that was going to have a new alphabet system, so our case was pretty different.


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## purpleshehrazade

Alijsh said:


> Let me say that there hasn't been notable contact between Arabic and Turkish especially in compare to Persian and Turkish:
> 
> _P__ersian language was also the official and cultural language of Ottoman Empire until 16th century, and most of the Ottoman manuscripts of that period were composed and executed in_ _Persian._
> 
> Turkish, Persian and Arabic belong to three different language families and they are different in structure; so I don't expect structural influence.


 
I agree that Persian had a great influence on Ottoman Turkish, but i wonder whether the choice of the language was somehow inherited from the dynasties that ruled before them. 

If we look at the language chosen for the compilation of the poetical works at the time, for example, we find that Khayyam, Attar and Rumi all chose Persian even though they were fluent in othe languages too.

Also we forget the movement and mobility of the people especially scholars, Rumi's travels are an example, and how that would have affected the language both at the ordinary use level and higher. Especially that the 'ordinary' man was as part of learned gatherings as anyone else.


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## Alijsh

Chazzwozzer said:


> I don't know why they want to change the script in Iran, but I think it should meet the needs of people in the means of literacy.
> 
> It was a new country that was going to have a new alphabet system, so our case was pretty different.


Thanks Chazzwozzer for explanation. And I can feel it's not so hard to learn to read Ottoman script for a native Turkish speaker. 

For your information: the matter of changing script in Iran coincides the time of Ata Turk. It's a closed case now although it has still some supporters especially among Iranians living abroad  As a side point, I don't think literacy is related to script. Japanese people are 100% literate and we know about the difficulty of their writing system. I have no objection with what Ata Turk did. He did what he thought it's the best for the people of their country. As you said, your case is pretty different. And I'm in favor of employing the abilities of a language. So in my eyes, replacing Persian words with pure Turkish words was a very good job. Bravo.


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## Alijsh

purpleshehrazade said:


> I agree that Persian had a great influence on Ottoman Turkish, but i wonder whether the choice of the language was somehow inherited from the dynasties that ruled before them.


Sorry I don't exactly know why. Perhaps assimilation.Ottoman_empire#Culture says: _One of the roots of Ottoman culture comes from the Oghuz Turks with their Central Asian Turkic nomadic culture. As the Oghuz passed into Anatolia through Persia over a period of a few hundred years they borrowed many elements of Persian culture._



purpleshehrazade said:


> If we look at the language chosen for the compilation of the poetical works at the time, for example, we find that Khayyam, Attar and Rumi all chose Persian even though they were fluent in othe languages too.


Persian has been native language of Khayyam, Attar and Rumi but of course we have had many non-natives who have contributed to Persian literature: Some Ottoman Sultans (e.g. Sultan Selim I), Indians, etc. Even some time ago I read that we have had Persian poet in [Ottoman] Albania. As Ottoman_empire#Language states, In cosmopolitan cities, people often spoke their family languages, some Ottoman or Persian if they were educated, and some Arabic if they were Muslim... Persian served mainly as a *literary language*... At this time many famous Persian poets emerged.

- I think we're going off-topic. I'm sorry friends.


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