# Slovenian; Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian (BCS): Free word order vs. SVO



## dihydrogen monoxide

Is there a way to explain why is Slovene for example SVO and why are Serbian,Bosnian and Croatian free word order? As I understand Proto Slavic was SVO, then how come SBC are free word order?


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## Athaulf

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Is there a way to explain why is Slovene for example SVO and why are Serbian,Bosnian and Croatian free word order? As I understand Proto Slavic was SVO, then how come SBC are free word order?



Are you saying that Slovenian doesn't allow word orders other than SVO?! 

I've never learned Slovenian, but it's close enough to Croatian that I can read it fairly comfortably, and I'm sure I've encountered non-SVO sentences in it many times. In fact, even on the Omniglot page about Slovenian, you can find an example of OV order with null subject in the language sample (from Genesis 11:3): _"Opeko _[object]_ so uporabljali _[verb]_ namesto kamna..." _

As for BCS, it has SVO as the default word order. Other word orders are also used (in fact, quite frequently), but they almost always convey additional emphasis on some part of the sentence. I'm pretty sure the situation was very much the same in Proto-Slavic, and I'd be very, very surprised to find out that it's much different in modern Slovenian.


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## dudasd

Just my own observation: Old Slavonic (or rather Old Church Slavonic, starting from, let's say, XI century) "preferred" SOV order or even OSV order - or OV order, as Athaulf said. (Just as nowadays.) In "narrative" manner also VOS order was popular. Old Slavonic sentence is much closer to a German sentence, so one of the possibilities is that it was "europeanized" later. Actually, in written texts it kept its preferrence for the verb on the end of the sentence till 20th century, and it's alive even nowadays. Of course, this theory is valid only if we take Old Slavonic as a valid link between Proto-Slavic and modern Slavic languages. But the fact that the western Slavic languages lost that characteristic in a larger extent than the eastern Slavic languages makes me think that we can speak about SOV, OSV and OV order and its europeanization rather than about supposed SVO in Proto-Slavic.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

This is what I had in mind:
Let's take Serbian for example, namely this sentence. 
Deda peče rakiju
Peče deda rakiju
Rakiju deda peče
Rakiju peče deda
Peče rakiju deda
Deda rakiju peče
These are the examples of free word order in this language. However if we take that example in Slovene.
Dedek peče rakijo.
Rakijo peče dedek.
These are the only forms acceptable. 
Slovene would allow structure that is different from SVO but it would sound weird and poetic.
This is my example of free word order and SVO, however in Slovenian the first example Dedek peče rakijo would be most common and the most natural, while the other one is possible, it would rarely be used and it sounds unnatural.


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## trance0

I don`t think it sounds unnatural to say "Rakijo peče dedek". Any other word order is also possible, just like in SC, but of course the emphasis changes, also the sentence gets a different flair.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

That's right. But in SC the meaning always stays the same no matter the word order. To my ears only the two I've mentioned sound somehow natural to me.


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## Athaulf

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> That's right. But in SC the meaning always stays the same no matter the word order. To my ears only the two I've mentioned sound somehow natural to me.



Actually, the emphasis of the sentence almost always changes when you reshuffle the word order. To take your own example:


(1) _Deda peče rakiju. _(SVO)

This would be the natural and straightforward way to say it. 


(2) _Peče deda rakiju. _(VSO)

This word order is rare, and it's usually used to strongly emphasize that S is performing some action on O, and not the other way around. With this sentence, it obviously doesn't make sense, since the object is not animate, but you could use it, for example, to say, _"Udario je on mene!"_ (i.e. "I didn't hit him, it was _him _who hit _me_!").


(3)  _Rakiju peče deda._ (OVS)

This word order is used to strongly emphasize the subject, i.e. that it's _grandpa_ making the brandy, not someone else. 


And so on. Every word order except the default SVO almost always carries some special emphasis. You could find examples of non-SVO orders without such emphasis, for example in poetry or in figures of speech, or even in some people's idiosyncratic styles of speech. However, SVO is strongly preferred as the default order.


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## Tolovaj_Mataj

trance0 said:


> I don`t think it sounds unnatural to say "Rakijo peče dedek".


 
For me as a native speaker of Slovene this sentence is unnatural in the first place. 
Rakija is not a Slovene word. We say _žganje_.
And we don't bake (_peči_) a brandy, but we cook (_kuhati_) it.
Therefore: Dedek kuha žganje.

All other variants are possible:
Žganje kuha dedek.
Žganje dedek kuha.
Kuha dedek žganje.
Kuha žgranje dedek.
Dedek žganje kuha.

As Athauf said it's all only emphasing different words in the same sentence to produce different effects.
In this grammatic aspect Slovene acts the same as Croatian/Serbian.

dihydrogen monoxide, what's your native language?


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## dihydrogen monoxide

My native language is Serbo-Croate and Slovene. First of all there is a word rakija in Slovene language although žganje is also the word used. It was a bit sloppy translation and I know we cook brandy. Therefore, it is the matter of emphasis, but would you really hear a Slovene say Kuha dedek žganje or Kuha žganje dedek. As you point out all variants can be used but only three of them sound natural.  Other variants sound poetic, they can be used, are possible, but not normally used by native speaker. My point was, you are right about these word orders being possible, but not all of them are in frequent use in Slovene. As you say they are possible. I think if you've read some poem you would expect Kuha dedek žganje, Kuha žganje dedek, Dedek žganje kuha. But in actual language and in native speaker's mind only Žganje kuha dedek comes to mind. Unless of course you'd like to emphasize a certain word. But as for Croatian, Serbian all variants are possible, although, here they do sound poetic, but you could hear native speakers use this word order. Let's take this for example.
Danes je lep dan. (native speaker,natural)
Je danes lep dan((un)natural, poetic, raises a question)
Lep dan je danes (possible, could be heard, natural)
Dan danes je lep (possible)
Je lep dan danes
Dan danes je lep
Yes, it is a matter of emphasis, but emphasized sentence sometimes would not sound natural (note only sometimes), unless you want to write a poem. Once again it was a sloppy translation. People can speak like that, I don't argue with that. But Kuha dedek žganje and Kuha žganje dedek would be accepted to me only when writing a poem. 
Emphasizing different words yes, but changing the word order too, and if people speak in certain word orders they can get a different sentence structure, it could sound grammatical and acceptable, but a little weird.
Look at English for example. Grandfather is cooking a brandy. Would you accept Is grandfather a brandy cooking, Brandy a grandfather is cooking, Cooking a grandfather is a brandy. Notice I only changed word orders and it automatically sounds weird in English. So some languages prefer to stick to certain word orders, but you can change it and in some languages it can sound acceptable and in some weird. In Slovene and Croatian all are possible, but are they all natural and do these examples pop out of people's mouths immediately. If I were to speak I'd always say Dedek kuha žganje. But not Kuha dedek žganje or Kuha žganje dedek. This is a long post, I know it's emphasizing, but I just wanted to say that Serbo-Croate finds the examples all natural, but in Slovene Kuha dedek žganje or Kuha žganje dedek acceptable, but only poetic.
Then, if someone makes a translation error, that doesn't mean he does not know his native language (this is off-topic, I know). All are possible, they are emphasized, but not used all the time, and I'd hear most of the time Dedek kuha žganje or Žganje kuha dedek or Dedek žganje kuha. Sadly, Dedek kuha žganje is missing from your examples.
Rakija is used in Slovene, it's become part of the Slovene language, a loan from Serbian or Croatian, doesn't matter and all the Slovene know the meaning of its word, it's just that žganje somehow prevailed. It's not a native Slovene word, but all know what it means.


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## Tolovaj_Mataj

Well,
as I understand we are talking about two topics here. Let's start with the one from the title.
I don't understand why do you compare English with Slovene. The first is SVO, the other is definitely not. Word order in Slovene in _almost _free. The emphasis is on almost because some gramatical structures must stick together and they must follow each other is a very rigid order. These simple examples you gave don't show this, but when we come to the compound sentences and usage of clitic words, then the word order is not free any more. 
I'd like to warn you here, that Slovene and SC have slightly different rules in this area and Slovenes can hear if somebody just speaks Slovene or he/she is also a native speaker.

I'd like to give you a title of a good book on this issue, but once I was warned against publishing any kind of propaganda, so I'm afraid you'll have to find it yourself.



dihydrogen monoxide said:


> First of all there is a word rakija in Slovene language although žganje is also the word used.


I've never heard anything like this is my life. Rakija is not a Slovene word. Do you know where it comes from? I can trace it to Turkish word _raki. _
But why would Slovenes use this word? At least where my ancestors has come from, SC words were not in use. They used _šnops_, _šnopc_ and such derived words from German word _Schnaps_. Or they used a specific name of the brandy like sadjevec, slivovka, brinovec, etc.



dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Rakija is used in Slovene, it's become part of the Slovene language, a loan from Serbian or Croatian, doesn't matter and all the Slovene know the meaning of its word, it's just that žganje somehow prevailed. It's not a native Slovene word, but all know what it means.


Maybe it has become a word which is frequently used, but not among native Slovenes. Why should it, if we have our own words. I know rakija is used only for a brandy which was made in those countries where this name originates. More like a word of fashion. Just like you say _grappa_ althrough you could just use a none-marked word _tropinovec._




dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Then, if someone makes a translation error, that doesn't mean he does not know his native language (this is off-topic, I know).


I don't know you personally, so I don't know how good do you speak. You haven't written anything longer in Slovene so far.
But being a native speaker doesn't automatically mean you are a good user of a particular language. If you open a newspaper or switch on a TV, you'll see what I mean. 
When I was in school, we were told to read a lot of Slovene classic authors and good translations to be able to communicate on a higher level in Slovene. 
On the contrary to you, I'm of pure Slovene descendent, so any none-Slovene words and forms always trigger my attention.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

I see what you mean. I'd like to point out this sentence. Koža sesalcev je pokrita z grivo. This here is an example of a sentence where not all word orders would be acceptable. If you were to look at SSKJ, the word there is listed, but it says it's an old fashioned word for žganje and no longer in use, which I don't agree. If you'd like to give a good book title send a private message. This is in fact what I've tried to warn about about what you said for Croatian and Slovene. Yes the rules are different. Oh, and I'd like to correct you on non-Slovene words, they are Slovene words borrowed from other languages. It's just a matter of time if they become accepted or not. Word rakija is traced back to Turkish, further than that I don't know. 
Maybe I'm repeating myself but I'd like to point out something here. Kuha dedek žganje, if meant as a question, it can be accepted and is possible and even grammatical. But if you consider this not a question than this can be possible and accepted. That's at least my opinion, we could not agree on this, or we could.
I think you can refer a good book, since I've seen book titles mentioned here or at least links to them.
By the way, I compare English to Slovene because it has the same word order and in this sense it can be comparable, but not in every case.


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## Athaulf

Tolovaj_Mataj said:


> Rakija is not a Slovene word. Do you know where it comes from? I can trace it to Turkish word _raki. _
> But why would Slovenes use this word? At least where my ancestors has come from, SC words were not in use.



You are correct about the etymology of _rakija_ -- it's not a SC word, but rather a very widespread Balkanism -- but judging by what I dug out googling, this word seems to be in use in at least some parts of Slovenia. For example, this Slovenian government document outlines the regulations for which alcoholic drinks may be branded as a certain sort of _rakija_. I've also found a bunch of casual uses of this word on Slovenian web pages. I have no idea when this word started being used in Slovenia and how limited the geographical extent of its use might be, but it definitely seems to exist in at least some Slovenian dialects.


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## trance0

Slovene and English most certainly cannot be compared with regard to word order! English, being only a mildly inflected language without any case system, has a very rigid word order. This is not the case with Slovene. And I cannot really agree with your "natural" and "unnatural" perception of the word order in Slovene. I quite frequently use word order other then SVO in Slovene, of course when I want to emphasize something or when I want to make my sentences sound more stylish. As for SC, I am no native speaker, but I don`t really believe there is that much difference between Slovene and SC regarding word order as you would like to convey. I believe(according to my experiences) that more educated Slovenes and the ones with better understanding and mastery of the language use different word order more frequently than the others who have less "feel" for the language and its expressive potential. To those too, some sentence structures do seem more natural and convenient than to people with more narrow view on the language.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Slovene and English most certainly cannot be compared with regard to word order. In a grammatical sense, no. But you could say they have the same word order.


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## skye

I'd like to add something on the topic of rakija. It might be in SSKJ and even in some formal documents, but in the area where I live it's not perceived as a native Slovene word.


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## skye

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Slovene and English most certainly cannot be compared with regard to word order. In a grammatical sense, no. But you could say they have the same word order.


 
I thought that the SVO order is/was typical of most Indo-European languages? Individual languages then allowed more or less freedom when it came to word order, some of them developed a pretty fixed word order, others not. But I only know two Germanic and one Slavic language. And those basic sentences we were learning in Romance languages had this word order too. But, there are some Indo-European languages I know nothing about (Celtic languages, Albanian, ...) and I don't know how it works there.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Celtic languages are VSO due to semitic influence.


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## skye

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Celtic languages are VSO due to semitic influence.


 
So without the influence they'd probably be SVO or not?


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## dihydrogen monoxide

I don't know if it would be SVO or not, maybe it would. The problem is PIE, which Celtic languages are descendant from was SOV and all the European languages now are SVO. This is already off topic. But maybe it would be SVO. I don't know whether they'd stick to the verb in second place or the last. Maybe someone will come up with a better answer. Come to think of it, they weren't VSO from the get go. Maybe someone will come up with a better answer.


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## Athaulf

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Celtic languages are VSO due to semitic influence.



Semitic influence?!  When on Earth have the ancestors of modern Celtic languages ever been in contact with Semitic ones? You are correct about their VSO word order, though.

As for the word order in older IE languages, Proto-IE and its ancient descendants had lots of cases and very free word order. However, there is some dispute about what might have been the default word order in PIE (SVO or SOV). I think the prevalent opinion is that it was SOV. See for example the discussion here.


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## Outsider

Athaulf said:


> As for the word order in older IE languages, Proto-IE and its ancient descendants had lots of cases and very free word order. However, there is some dispute about what might have been the default word order in PIE (SVO or SOV). I think the prevalent opinion is that it was SOV.


That was my understanding, too. SOV was the default word order in classical Latin. 

SVO word order is common in those IE languages which have lost their declensions, like the Romance languages and English. Most Germanic languages follow V2 syntax (English has only traces of this).


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Trading with the group of people that speak languages belonging to Semitic group. This is a theory. I don't know when but I know it's because of the contact they had and trading. 
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=c6fc73d018b136d2bf40e8ed4af2bb74
Look at this article, you would have to register, but there is a subchapter that links Irish to Semitic. 
http://books.google.com/books?id=tB...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result
It suggests a Semitic substratum in Celtic languages.


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## skye

Thanks, everyone. I don't know why, but I was always sure that the default word order was SVO. It's very interesting to hear all this. I hope the replies won't be deleted if they get too off-topic. I don't think they are though, I mean to find the reason why the word order is such as it is you have to look into the past too. And more recent influences and developments too, of course.


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## Athaulf

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Trading with the group of people that speak languages belonging to Semitic group. This is a theory. I don't know when but I know it's because of the contact they had and trading.
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=c6fc73d018b136d2bf40e8ed4af2bb74
> Look at this article, you would have to register, but there is a subchapter that links Irish to Semitic.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=tB...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result
> It suggests a Semitic substratum in Celtic languages.



Thanks for the links! I really had no idea about these theories. Still, I've skimmed a few more sources, and the idea seems to be very controversial.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

That's what I wanted to warn but I've heard it from my professor. But my opinion would be human psychology that they somehow found the verb more important and put in the first place rather than Semitic contact. Maybe it's a strange thinking.


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## TriglavNationalPark

skye said:


> I'd like to add something on the topic of rakija. It might be in SSKJ and even in some formal documents, but in the area where I live it's not perceived as a native Slovene word.


 
I agree. Whenever I hear "rakija" being used in Slovene (rarely), it's in reference to the countries where this word is commonly used, as in: "V Srbiji imajo dobro rakijo." ("They have good _rakija_ in Serbia.")

Slovenian-produced liquor would not normally be described as rakija.


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## TriglavNationalPark

At the risk of dragging this even further off-topic, I remembered an exception to what I wrote in my previous post:



TriglavNationalPark said:


> Slovenian-produced liquor would not normally be described as rakija.


 
The term "rakija" *is* used for liquor produced in the small Slovenian region of Kostel. This is almost certainly due to the influx of people from what is now Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina to this border area several centuries ago (also evidenced by place names such as Banja Loka, which is very similar to the Bosnian town of Banja Luka).


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