# Urdu: مرتب murattab



## Gop

Friends,
what is the meaning of مرتب in the context of the following sentence:

سال ۱۱۸۲ھ[۱۷۲۹عیسوی، مرتب] کی بسنت کے دن تھے۔

Thanks.


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## Jashn

Could it be the equivalent of the English, ''respectively''?


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## Gop

Jashn said:


> Could it be the equivalent of the English, ''respectively''?


Thanks. Is this meaning attested?


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## Qureshpor

Is the late Faruqi SaaHib talking about a work that was "*compiled*" in the spring of year in question?


... درمیانی قبل مسیح تک کا دور ، اور اس کا دوسرا دور ۵۰۰ قبل میں سے درمیانی سن _عیسوی_ تک کا ہے جبکہ اسکا تیسرا اور آخری دور ۱۲۰۰ _عیسوی_ تک _*مرتب*_ کیا گیا ہے ۔

Resistance at the Edge of Empires (see first paragraph)

Edit:

A مرتب _murattab_ (pass. part. of رتّب 'to set (things) in order, to arrange,' &c., ii of رتب 'to be firm, or steady, or settled,' &c.), part. Set in order, regularly disposed, arranged, regulated, classified; distributed; appointed; prepared; compiled; digested: — _murattab karnā_, v.t. To set (or put) in order, &c.: — _g̠air murattab_, adj. Not in order, irregularly disposed; not classified.

If one thinks about one system (the Gregorian calender) and a list of its months and dates in a particular year and then one has another system (the Miilaadii calender) *compiled/arranged* to correspond with the dates of the former, one can say

x Greghorian *murattab* y Miilaadii


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## PersoLatin

Can مرتب in this context be taken as equivalent or matching?

I don’t know Urdu but the part in question is not too different to Persian.

مرتب is used in Persian (ترتیب داده شده) with the same meaning as given above, so I wonder why the author would need to mention ‘compiled’ there as it is a given.


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## Gop

Qureshpor said:


> Is the late Faruqi SaaHib talking about a work that was "*compiled*" in the spring of year in question?


As you have rightly guessed the text is from the late Faruqi SaaHib. His protagonist is living in 18th century Delhi and is just narrating his story, and what happened on a certain day, nothing more.


Qureshpor said:


> ... درمیانی قبل مسیح تک کا دور ، اور اس کا دوسرا دور ۵۰۰ قبل میں سے درمیانی سن _عیسوی_ تک کا ہے جبکہ اسکا تیسرا اور آخری دور ۱۲۰۰ _عیسوی_ تک _*مرتب*_ کیا گیا ہے ۔
> 
> Resistance at the Edge of Empires (see first paragraph)
> 
> Edit:
> 
> A مرتب _murattab_ (pass. part. of رتّب 'to set (things) in order, to arrange,' &c., ii of رتب 'to be firm, or steady, or settled,' &c.), part. Set in order, regularly disposed, arranged, regulated, classified; distributed; appointed; prepared; compiled; digested: — _murattab karnā_, v.t. To set (or put) in order, &c.: — _g̠air murattab_, adj. Not in order, irregularly disposed; not classified.
> 
> If one thinks about one system (the Gregorian calender) and a list of its months and dates in a particular year and then one has another system (the Miilaadii calender) *compiled/arranged* to correspond with the dates of the former, one can say
> 
> x Greghorian *murattab* y Miilaadii


Generally one says ‘year 1182 Hijri, _corresponding to_ 1729 CE’. Can one say, by stretching one’s imagination, that this is what Faruqi SaaHib means by adding ‘murattab’ after the Common Era? Certainly this would seem to be the implied meaning in x Gregorian y Miilaadii.


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## Qureshpor

Gop said:


> As you have rightly guessed the text is from the late Faruqi SaaHib. His protagonist is living in 18th century Delhi and is just narrating his story, and what happened on a certain day, nothing more.
> 
> Generally one says ‘year 1182 Hijri, _corresponding to_ 1729 CE’. Can one say, by stretching one’s imagination, that this is what Faruqi SaaHib means by adding ‘murattab’ after the Common Era? Certainly this would seem to be the implied meaning in x Gregorian y Miilaadii.


Yes, Gop SaaHib, unless someone else comes with a better explanation.


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## Jashn

> year 1182 Hijri, _corresponding to_ 1729 CE



Well, that's why I suggested, 'respectively'. For example, one could say, 'the event occurred in the year XXXX on the Julian calendar, and year YYYY on the Gregorian calendar, respectively'. 

Respectively means 'in the order given', and when I saw مرتب in Platts, the first translation was, '*Set in order*, regularly disposed, *arranged*, regulated, *classified*;', and the meanings in bold seem to be similar to respectively, at least to me! 🙂


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## Gop

Jashn said:


> Well, that's why I suggested, 'respectively'. For example, one could say, 'the event occurred in the year XXXX on the Julian calendar, and year YYYY on the Gregorian calendar, respectively'.
> 
> Respectively means 'in the order given', and when I saw مرتب in Platts, the first translation was, '*Set in order*, regularly disposed, *arranged*, regulated, *classified*;', and the meanings in bold seem to be similar to respectively, at least to me! 🙂


I agree, Jashn SaaHib.

BTW, this story, SAWAR, has been translated into English by the late Shamsur Rahman Faruqi SaaHib himself (in The Sun that arose from the Earth):

سال ۱۱۸۲ھ[۱۷۲۹عیسوی، مرتب] کی بسنت کے دن تھے۔
Faruqi SaaHib’s translation: 
The year was 1769, the season of Basant was on us. 

murattab does not find a place in the translation!


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## Gop

I have some new information:
There are some more instances of dates in the same text, with the word مطابق preceding the year of the Christian Era, thus:


1142Hijri [mutaabiq 1729 iisvii, murattab]

I am attaching a screenshot of a page showing plenty of instances of this.

Mutaabiq precedes the Christian year, which is followed by murattab, separated by a comma.

Is it possible now to say what these two words mean in context?


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## Qureshpor

Gop said:


> Is it possible now to say what these two words mean in context?


If you tell half the story, you can't expect the person to have a full understanding of the whole story, can you? 

1142Hijri [*mutaabiq* 1729 iisvii, *murattab*]

1142 hijri *corresponding* (to) 1729 3iisavii, (as) *compiled*


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## Gop

Qureshpor said:


> If you tell half the story, you can't expect the person to have a full understanding of the whole story, can you?
> 
> 1142Hijri [*mutaabiq* 1729 iisvii, *murattab*]
> 
> 1142 hijri *corresponding* (to) 1729 3iisavii, (as) *compiled*


Qureshpor SaaHib, it was the author who omitted the word ‘mutaabiq’ in the phrase I quoted while starting the thread, not me!
Thanks for the meaning, clear now. One more question: is the author using ‘murattab’ to mean Gregorian, since this was compiled by Gregory?


Jashn said:


> Could it be the equivalent of the English, ''respectively''?


I found the meaning क्रमवार (respectively) for مرتب on the net here:

مرتب Hindi Meaning: क्रमवार Murattab Meaning, Urdu To Hindi Dictionary.

So can we take this meaning ‘respectively’ as more appropriate than ‘compiled’?
e.g. 1142 hijri corresponding to 1729 3iisavii, *respectively.*


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## Gop

I have come across another context in which the word ‘murattab’ is used by Shamsur Rahman Faruqi:

“یہ کیا فضول یادہ گوئی ہے“ میں نے تیز آواز میں کہا۔ “وہ توکوئی مرد تھا۔ سیاہ مرکب پر سوار۔ اور تو اسے 

سفیدمرکب والی کوئی نقاب پوش رجی سجی بیبی[*سلطان التمش کی بیٹی،سلطان رضیہ بیگم، مرتب*] بتا رہی ہے۔

Can someone throw light on why the word ‘murattab’ figures here?


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## Qureshpor

گوپ صاحب، اردو کتابیں لکھنے والوں کو عموماً مُصَنِّف کہا جاتا ہے۔ یہ لفظ گرامر کے لحاظ سے اسمِ فاعل ہے یعنی کرنے والا اور مصنف لکھنے والا ہے۔

اِسی طرح اسم مفعول یعنی جو کیا گیا ہو، لکھا گیا ہو اُس کے لئے 

مُؤَلَّف compiled 

مُرَتَّب arranged

مستعمل ہے۔ مجھے معلوم نہیں کہ آیا یہاں سلطان رضیہ بیگم کی ترتیب شدہ کتاب کا ذکر کیا جا رہا ہے یا کسی اور کی۔ کیا آپ کی کتاب کے آخر میں کتابوں کی کوئی فہرست دی گئی ہے؟ یوں لگتا ہے کہ لفظ مرتب میں کوئی ایسا راز ہے جسے ہم تا حال سمجھ نہیں پائے ہیں۔​


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## Gop

Qureshpor said:


> گوپ صاحب،مجھے معلوم نہیں کہ آیا یہاں سلطان رضیہ بیگم کی ترتیب شدہ کتاب کا ذکر کیا جا رہا ہے یا کسی اور کی۔ کیا آپ کی کتاب کے آخر میں کتابوں کی کوئی فہرست دی گئی ہے؟ یوں لگتا ہے کہ لفظ مرتب میں کوئی ایسا راز ہے جسے ہم تا حال سمجھ نہیں پائے ہیں۔​


Thank you very much, Qureshpor SaaHib, for looking into this again.
Reply to your question: there is no bibliography or any list of books at the  end of the book.
I can only infer that this word stands for ‘that is’:
1142 Hijri, corresponding to 1729 CE ,مرتب that is.
Altamish’s daughter, sultana Razia Begum,  مرتب that is.
But this is only speculation without attestation.
I trust some other learned member of the forum will reveal to us the hidden sense of ‘murattab’.


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## Gop

Qureshpor said:


> مجھے معلوم نہیں کہ آیا یہاں سلطان رضیہ بیگم کی ترتیب شدہ کتاب کا ذکر کیا جا رہا ہے یا کسی اور کی۔ کیا آپ کی کتاب کے آخر میں کتابوں کی کوئی فہرست دی گئی ہے؟ یوں لگتا ہے کہ لفظ مرتب میں کوئی ایسا راز ہے جسے ہم تا حال سمجھ نہیں پائے ہیں۔​


Qureshpor SaaHib, could you let me know the meaning of آیا in your initial sentence?
I have come across its use in Shamsur Rahman Faruqi too:
میں نے کنکھیوں سے چاروں طرف دیکھا، کہ آیا ہم میں سے کوئی جیالا اس شہسوار کو روک کر عرض مدعا کرنے کے لیے بڑھتا ہے۔


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## Qureshpor

Gop said:


> Qureshpor SaaHib, could you let me know the meaning of آیا in your initial sentence?
> I have come across its use in Shamsur Rahman Faruqi too:
> میں نے کنکھیوں سے چاروں طرف دیکھا، کہ آیا ہم میں سے کوئیجیالا اس شہسوار کو روک کر عرض مدعا کرنے کے لیے بڑھتا ہے۔


Whether


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## Gop

I’d like to bring up another instance of مرتب in the same author:

میرا قد کوئی نو وجب [تقریباً چھہ فٹ، مرتب] ہے اور اس لحاظ سے میںاپنے ہم چشموں میں خاصا ممتاز تھا۔


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> Whether


I should have added and perhaps you know this already, the word آیا is of Persian origins. It is used to ask indirect questions.


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## Gop

Qureshpor said:


> I should have added and perhaps you know this already, the word آیا is of Persian origins. It is used to ask indirect questions.


Thanks for this additional light.


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## PersoLatin

Qureshpor said:


> It is used to ask indirect questions.


It can be used in direct questions when stress is required  e.g. after a person has already asked a question but wishes to give the third party a final chance for an answer, or to ask it with sarcasm.


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## Gop

PersoLatin said:


> It can be used in direct questions when stress is required  e.g. after a person has already asked a question but wishes to give the third party a final chance for an answer, or to ask it with sarcasm.


Thank you PersoLatin SaaHib.


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## marrish

Nobody thought of مرتب=_muratt*i*b_?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Nobody thought of مرتب=_muratt*i*b_?


Yes I did, marrish SaaHib but could not fit this meaning into the context provided.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> Yes I did, marrish SaaHib but could not fit this meaning into the context provided.


QP SaaHib, at least it crossed your mind. I recall many front pages of (older but not only) Urdu books mention the credentials of such مرتِب in the form: مرتب / مرتّبہ از (likewise مؤلّفہ از مصنّفہ از for "recorded by"; "authored by"; "edited by", "compiled by" "arranged by")



اگر مصنف اور کاتب کے درمیان مرتب ہو تو اس کی پسند یا ناپسند غلط فہمی ، کم علمی [...] کی وجہ سے تحریر میں اور بہت سی تبدیلیاں ہو جاتی ہیں ۔ (۱۹۸۴ ، غالب کے خطوط ، خلیق انجم ، ۱ : ۱۴)


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## Gop

marrish said:


> QP SaaHib, at least it crossed your mind. I recall many front pages of (older but not only) Urdu books mention the credentials of such مرتِب in the form: مرتب / مرتّبہ از (likewise مؤلّفہ از مصنّفہ از for "recorded by"; "authored by"; "edited by", "compiled by" "arranged by")
> 
> 
> 
> اگر مصنف اور کاتب کے درمیان مرتب ہو تو اس کی پسند یا ناپسند غلط فہمی ، کم علمی [...] کی وجہ سے تحریر میں اور بہت سی تبدیلیاں ہو جاتی ہیں ۔ (۱۹۸۴ ، غالب کے خطوط ، خلیق انجم ، ۱ : ۱۴)


marrish SaaHib, I am very happy to see you here after some time.
The question that troubles me is this: does even the reading of مرتب as murattib مرتِب give us any clue as to what the author had in mind while using this word in the contexts cited in posts #1, #13, #18?


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## marrish

I'd posit that _murattib_ can be translated one or any of the following ways, but I can't seem to make up my mind as to which one would be fitting:

سال ۱۱۸۲ھ[۱۷۲۹عیسوی، مرتب] کی the year 1182AH [1729 AD, editor/redactor/lay-out setter.]
سفیدمرکب والی کوئی نقاب پوش رجی سجی بیبی[*سلطان التمش کی بیٹی،سلطان رضیہ بیگم، مرتب*] بتا رہی ہے۔ [....., Editor(s)]
میرا قد کوئی نو وجب [تقریباً چھہ فٹ، مرتب] ہے اور اس لحاظ سے میںاپنے ہم چشموں میں خاصا ممتاز تھا۔
9 vajb [circa 6 ft, Redaction]


Gop said:


> marrish SaaHib, I am very happy to see you here after some time.
> The question that troubles me is this: does even the reading of مرتب as murattib مرتِب give us any clue as to what the author had in mind while using this word in the contexts cited in posts #1, #13, #18?


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## Gop

marrish said:


> I'd posit that _murattib_ can be translated one or any of the following ways, but I can't seem to make up my mind as to which one would be fitting:
> 
> سال ۱۱۸۲ھ[۱۷۲۹عیسوی، مرتب] کی the year 1182AH [1729 AD, editor/redactor/lay-out setter.]
> سفیدمرکب والی کوئی نقاب پوش رجی سجی بیبی[*سلطان التمش کی بیٹی،سلطان رضیہ بیگم، مرتب*] بتا رہی ہے۔ [....., Editor(s)]
> میرا قد کوئی نو وجب [تقریباً چھہ فٹ، مرتب] ہے اور اس لحاظ سے میںاپنے ہم چشموں میں خاصا ممتاز تھا۔
> 9 vajb [circa 6 ft, Redaction]


marrish SaaHib, you seem finally to have figured out that this word should be ‘murattib’, editor, redactor, etc. 
This story, ‘سوار’ is set in the 18th century and is narrated by a maulavi who lived in those days. We might imagine that he wrote ‘1182 AH‘, and Shamsur Rahman Faruqi who presents this story to us explains that this is 1729 AD. Hence “1182 AH [1729 AD, editor].
Similarly, when the maulavi said his height is  taqriiban nau vajab, the author-editor adds [about six foot, editor].
And when the maulavi said:  کوئی نقاب پوش رجی سجی بیبی
more precision is given by Faruqi SaaHib in sq. brackets about who that biibii might be:
[ کوئی نقاب پوش رجی سجی بیبی[*سلطان التمش کی بیٹی،سلطان رضیہ بیگم، مرتب*]
What does Qureshpor SaaHib think?


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## Qureshpor

Gop said:


> What does Qureshpor SaaHib think?


Sorry about the delay in responding. I seem to have missed your post and /or must have had other matters getting in the way!  
I would say that either مُرَتِّب "murattib/compiler" or مُرَتَّب "murattab/compiled (by)" would be fine depending on context.


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## Gop

Thank you, Qureshpor SaaHib, for your valuable view. I wish to ask pointedly if this ‘compiler’ is in this text Shamsur Rahman Faruqi. (I think he is).


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## Qureshpor

Gop said:


> I have some new information:
> There are some more instances of dates in the same text, with the word مطابق preceding the year of the Christian Era, thus:
> 
> 
> 1142Hijri [mutaabiq 1729 iisvii, murattab]


I too have a new suggestion and would be interested marrish SaaHib's views on this matter.

1142 Hijri [corresponding to 1729 Gregorian, respectively]

 Another meaning for murattab is tartiib-vaar (in order)


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## Gop

Qureshpor said:


> If you tell half the story, you can't expect the person to have a full understanding of the whole story, can you?


Shamsur Rahman Faruqi’s stories in ‘sawar aur dusri kahaniyan’ are so abundantly annotated by this مرتب murattib, that it is impossible to cite all of them. But I found no less than seven annotations in a single page ( p.152), and I give the text below:
امیر الامراسیدحسین علی خان کی شکست اور موت، اور اس کے بھائی قطب الملک سید عبداللہ خان [تاریخ ہند کے بدنام سید برادران جو “بادشاہ گر” کہلاتے تھے، مرتب] کی معزولی کے بعد شاہ فلک بارگاہ محمد شاہ بہادر غازی، شہنشاہ دہلی نے قمرالدین خان کے باپ میر محمد امین خان کو اعتمادالدولہ کا خطاب دے کر وزیر مقرر کیا [۱۱۳۰ھ، مطابق ۱۷۲۴ء، مرتب]، لیکن محمد امین خان جلد ہی واصل بحق ہوئے۔ ان کے بعد بادشاہ نے قمرالدین خان کو اعتمادالدولہ نواب قمرالدین خان بہادر نصرت جنگ کے خطابات کے ساتھ وزیر مقرر کیا[۱۱۳۷ھ، مطابق ۱۷۲۴ء، مرتب۔]


قمرالدین خان نے تب سے اپنی شہادت [۱۷۴۸ھ، مرتب] کے وقت تک منصب وزارت کو بڑی خوبی اور نیک نامی کے ساتھ نباہا۔ ان کے زمانے میں منصور علی خان صفدر جنگ عرف مرزا مقیم، اور عماد الملک غازی الدین خان سوئم [جو نظام الملک آصف جاہ کا، اور اس لیے قمرالدین خان کا بھی نبیرہتھا، مرتب]جیسے اولوالعزم، لائق، لیکن بے ضمیر اور سنگ دل امرا کو سر اٹھانے کا موقع بالکل نہ مل سکا تھا۔ قمرالدین خان کے بعد صفدر جنگ نے احمد شاہ جیسے با صلاحیت اور ہمہ صفت موصوف بادشاہ کو، جو محمد شاہ کے بعد تخت نشین ہوا تھا، بالکل بے اثر کرکے رکھا اور بلآخر اسے اندھا کراکے تخت سے اتار دیا۔ [۱۷۵۴ء، مرتب]۔ عمادالملک غازی الدین خان نےایک قدم اور آگے جاکر احمد شاہ کے جانشین عالم گیر ثانی کو مروا ہی دیا [۱۷۵۹ء، مرتب]۔
Hope this helps.


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## Qureshpor

Gope SaaHib, as long you are aware that:

murattib = compiler

murattab = compiled (by), arranged (also other meanings)

AND, I also still think that when both the Hinjri and Gergorian dates are given side by side, "murattab" means "in order" or "respectively"...( I should add that @Jashn provided this meaning in #8 and gratitude is owed to him!)

you can take your pick and make an informed choice.


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