# Urdu: "-e- AND "-o-"



## Chhaatr

As a Hindi speaker my understanding is:

_Haal-e-dil = dil kaa haal_

_qasm-e-va3de = qasam_ AND _va3de_

To me it seems "-e-" can mean both "_kaa_" and "_aur_" 

In the below sentence given by Faylasoof SaaHib I understand "-o-" also to mean "_aur_"

_aap meraa pur xuluuS o iHtiraam salaam qubuul kareN! (_My understanding:_aap meraa pur xuluuS AUR pur iHtiraam salaam qubuul kareN_)

My understanding could be totally wrong.

Requesting help from Urdu speakers in clarifying this.


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## Alfaaz

Chhaatr said:
			
		

> _qasm-e-va3de = qasam_ AND _va3de_
> 
> To me it seems "-e-" can mean both "_kaa_" and "_aur_"


Could you give an example of where you found "qasm-e-va3de"? 

It is usually qasme*N* wa3de. Perhaps you have misinterpreted/misheard this...?_

-e- _is used for izaafats (noun/noun ; noun/adjective) and it doesn't seem to ever mean _"aur"/and_.

Apart from that, your understanding of _-e- (Persian izaafat) _and of _Arabic _و _wa_ (_Persian and Urdu pronunciation, depending on context: -o-) _is correct!


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## Qureshpor

chhaatr SaaHib, you probably have "qasmeN-vaa3de" in mind, as Alfaaz SaaHib has suggested.


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## Dib

Alfaaz said:


> ... _Arabic _و _wa_ (_Persian and Urdu pronunciation, depending on context: -o-) ..._



Just a minor modification, I'd like to add. Actually wa and -o are etymologically two different words, though they are spelt the same. As pointed out, wa is Arabic. However, -o is purely Persian (not Persian pronunciation of Arabic wa) coming from Middle Persian (Pahlavi) ud, related to Sanskrit uta. At least, that's what one of my Iranologist friends told me.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> Just a minor modification, I'd like to add. Actually wa and -o are etymologically two different words, though they are spelt the same. As pointed out, wa is Arabic. However, -o is purely Persian (not Persian pronunciation of Arabic wa) coming from Middle Persian (Pahlavi) ud, related to Sanskrit uta. At least, that's what one of my Iranologist friends told me.


I might have pointed you to this thread before, Dib SaaHib...post 12

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2187529&highlight=hunch


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## Dib

Ah, thanks a lot for the link. I see these words have been discussed extensively.


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## Wolverine9

Dib said:


> Just a minor modification, I'd like to add. Actually wa and -o are etymologically two different words, though they are spelt the same. As pointed out, wa is Arabic. However, -o is purely Persian (not Persian pronunciation of Arabic wa) coming from Middle Persian (Pahlavi) ud, related to Sanskrit uta. At least, that's what one of my Iranologist friends told me.



Fdb confirms that _wa _and _-o-_ are etymologically distinct in post #45 of the thread QP provided as a link.


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## Chhaatr

Thanks to all of you.


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## Chhaatr

Requesting help from Urdu speakers in clarifying:

1. in addition to _kaa_ does "-e-" also mean "_jaisaa/jaisii_"?  eg _tiir-e-naZar
2. _how would you say _waqt-e-3aziiz_ (or rather what does it mean) without the izaafat?***

*** For context, I came across this in the following couplet (I do not have access to this in nast3aliiq, so pardon my transliteration)

_Ghairat-e-yusuf hai yeh waqt-e-3aziiz_
_miir is ko rayegan khotaa hai kyaa
_
(I have, more or less, copied and pasted this from the source I had access to and would be grateful if some member could render this in Urdu rasm ul xaT)

Many thanks!


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## marrish

1. No, I don't think it does mean "_jaisaa_", _tiir-e-nazar_=_nazar kaa tiir_.
2. I don't really know whether it should be read with or without an izaafat. It means "dear time", whether there is an izaafat or not.

QP SaaHib will probably be better placed to figure out if there is an _izaafat_. I'm looking forward to his contribution.

The couplet of Mir Taqi Mir in Urdu script:

غیرت یوسف ہے یہ وقت عزیز
میر اِس کو رائگاں کھوتا ہے کیا


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## Dib

I am not sure if this is the source of confusion, but just to make it explicit: In Persian, the so-called izaafat vowel has two distinct usages:
1. noun_A-e noun_B = noun_A of noun_B
2. noun_A-e adjective_B = adjective_B noun_A


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## marrish

^ Good that you mentioned it Dib. I hasten to add that in Urdu it is also used the same way however the adjectival construction is far more seldom. Actually there is a good bunch of threads on izaafat in Urdu...


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## souminwé

Could your line possible be from "_qasmeN va3de pyaar vafaa sab, baateN haiN baatoN kaa kyaa_" ?


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## Chhaatr

souminwe - you are right!

Thanks Dib and marrish SaaHibaan for the explanation and putting the verse in Urdu script.

I have understood the following:

1. noun_A-e noun_B = noun_A of noun_B
2. noun_A-e adjective_B = adjective_B noun_A

However, when there are more than two words then how is it translated?  eg:

_shoxii-e-raNg-e-Hinaa
xaak-e-dar-e-janam_

Thanks!


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## Alfaaz

Chhaatr said:
			
		

> However, when there are more than two words then how is it translated? eg:
> 
> _shoxii-e-raNg-e-Hinaa
> xaak-e-dar-e-janam_


_Hinaa ke raNg kii shoxii
jaanam ke dar kii xaak_


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## Chhaatr

_bahut shukriyah Alfaaz SaaHib!_


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## Chhaatr

Coming to "-e-" and "-o-" combination, would _meHfil-e-kaif-o-mastii_ translate into _kaif aur mastii kii meHfil_?


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## Purples

What is _va3de btw? Is it supposed to be vaade (as in promises)?_


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## Qureshpor

Purples said:


> What is _va3de btw? Is it supposed to be vaade (as in promises)?_



waa'o-zabar-3ain-daal-baRii ye وعدے


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## sapnachaandni

Chhaatr said:


> 1. in addition to _kaa_ does "-e-" also mean "_jaisaa/jaisii_"?  eg _tiir-e-naZar
> _


"-e-" kaa matlab "jaisaa/jaisii" nahiiN hai, par "tiir-e-nazar = nazar kaa tiir" kaa matlab hai: "tiir jaisii nazar".

grammar meN "tiir-e-nazar = nazar kaa tiir" ko "izaafii haalat" (اضافی حالت) kahte haiN. matlab, "izaafii haalat" kaa form aisaa hai:
noun(A)-e-noun(B) = noun(B) kaa/ke/kii noun(A)

izaafii haalat kaa ek isti'maal tashbiih* aur isti'aare** ke liye hai. misaal ke taur par jab kahte haiN ki "nazar tiir jaisii hai", to "nazar" ko "tiir" se tashbiih de rahe haiN. tashbiih aur isti'aarah bayaan karne kaa ek tariiqah ye hai ki "izaafii haalat" se kaam liyaa jaa'e. isii liye "nazar tiir jaisii hai" kii jagah par kah sakte haiN: "tiir-e-nazar = nazar kaa tiir" jis kaa matlab hai: "tiir jaisii nazar".

* tashbiih (تشبیہ) = Simile
** isti'aarah (استعارہ) = Metaphor


ek aur misaal:
aatish-e-'ishq (آتشِ عشق) = 'ishq kii aatish* --->  'ishq aatish jaisaa hai.  ---> 'ishq ko aatish se tashbiih dii ga'ii hai: aatish jaisaa 'ishq.

* aatish (آتش) = aag. "آتش" dar asal "aatash" hai, par jahaaN tak maiN jaantii huuN urduu meN "aatish" kahte haiN.




Chhaatr said:


> Coming to "-e-" and "-o-" combination, would _meHfil-e-kaif-o-mastii_ translate into _kaif aur mastii kii meHfil_?


jii haaN.


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## Chhaatr

آپ کی معالوماتی تحریر کے لئے بہت شکریہ سپناچاندنی صاحبہ


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## sapnachaandni

Chhaatr said:


> آپ کی معالوماتی تحریر کے لئے بہت شکریہ سپناچاندنی صاحبہ


You’re welcome chhaatr jii. 

vaise vo niilaa lafz aisaa likhaa jaataa hai:
معلوماتی
is meN koii "alif" likhaa nahiiN jaataa.
(lagtaa hai type karne meN Ghaltii hu'ii hogii.)


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## Chhaatr

اِصلاح کے لئے بہت شکریہ


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## Qureshpor

sapnachaandni said:


> You’re welcome chhaatr jii.
> 
> vaise vo niilaa lafz aisaa likhaa jaataa hai:
> معلوماتی
> is meN koii "alif" likhaa nahiiN jaataa.
> (lagtaa hai type karne meN Ghaltii hu'ii hogii.)


aur yih niilaa lafz aise!


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## Chhaatr

If "-e-" only means _kaa or _"of" then what does below example mean?

_manZuur-e-xudaa

_I feel it means more like _xudaa ko manZuur_.

Any help much appreciated.


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## Qureshpor

Chhaatr said:


> If "-e-" only means _kaa or _"of" then what does below example mean?
> 
> _manZuur-e-xudaa
> 
> _I feel it means more like _xudaa ko manZuur_.
> 
> Any help much appreciated.


مدّعی لاکھہ بُرا چاہے تو کیا ہوتا ہے
وہی ہوتا ہے جو* منظور خدا* ہوتا ہے

The accuser, may desire malice, but what of it?
An event occurs only if it is "*approved of God*"

manzuur-i-xudaa/ God's will


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## Gope

shukriyah, sapnachaandni SaaHiba, for your excellent exposition.


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## sapnachaandni

Gope said:


> shukriyah, sapnachaandni SaaHiba, for your excellent exposition.


You’re welcome.


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## Chhaatr

In the thread "dilii", in response to QP SaaHib's post I wanted to express gratitude, in the form of an izaafat expression, on the lines of "thanks for this gift in the shape of a detailed post/response".  However,  still not being comfortable or at ease with izaafats, I had to make do with "bahut shukriyah".

Seeking help from Urdu speaking friends on how I could have expressed this sentiment with the help of an izaafat. 

Many thanks!


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## Purples

Still confused as to what you mean by 'izaafat'. Do you mean additions?

Anyway, I'd say it like this;

itni tafseelan jawab dene k liye aap ka buht shukriya, though in real life I'd most probably never say such a thing (haven't seen anyone who speaks such pure Urdu in my life, ha!)


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## tonyspeed

I scanned the comments but it was not clear. Can someone show in Urdu script what letters are used to create -e- and -o- constructions? I'm assuming -o- is represented by vao.


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## tarkshya

tonyspeed said:


> I scanned the comments but it was not clear. Can someone show in Urdu script what letters are used to create -e- and -o- constructions? I'm assuming -o- is represented by vao.



-e- is written with a zer at the end of the first word in the pair, like مغلِ اعظم (Mughal-e-Azam).

-o- is written with a standalone wav, like آب و ہوا (aab-o-hawaa)


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## Alfaaz

tonyspeed said:
			
		

> I scanned the comments but it was not clear. Can someone show in Urdu script what letters are used to create -e- and -o- constructions? I'm assuming -o- is represented by vao.


 The_ wa _and _-o-_ are represented by و - _waa'o_, as you have correctly assumed. The izaafat is represented by a ِ   -  _zer/kasrah_ underneath the first word of the construction. 

(If anyone is interested, more detailed background information about the origins of اضافت is present in post #4 of Urdu: typing/writing an izaafat with words ending in ا ,ی ,ہ)


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