# Romance languages: cognates with different genders



## albondiga

Hi all,

I'm wondering if anyone can give me some examples of words that are cognates between two or more of these four Romance languages, but for which the gender is different in at least one.  (Just as an example of one of the many possible combinations: a word that exists as a cognate in Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian, yet is masculine in Spanish and Portuguese but feminine in Italian...)

Any examples greatly appreciated... thanks!


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## Talant

Uf, there are lots. For instance most words that end in "-eur" in French are feminine, and end in "-or" in Spanish and are masculine: Erreur (f) - Error (m); Valeur (f) - Valor (m);....


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## albondiga

ah, ok, then can anyone give me some of the other guidelines (besides the one mentioned by Talant) for predicting when a cognate in one of these languages is likely to have a different gender in another one of these languages?

Thanks...


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## Talant

Oops, I forgot to add. My rule does not apply to derivative words. "farceur" comes from "farce" and it's masculine,....


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## MonsieurAquilone

"eur" for positions as well in French are predominantly masculine as well, "euse" is the feminine equivalent as such.


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## DrLindenbrock

Talant said:


> Uf, there are lots. For instance most words that end in "-eur" in French are feminine, and end in "-or" in Spanish and are masculine: Erreur (f) - Error (m); Valeur (f) - Valor (m);....


 
In Italian the equivalent would be -ore (amore, colore, valore, etc.) and all these words are masculin.

For derived words (giocatore = player, from giocare = to play) and is masculin the suffix is -tore. The feminin equivalent is -trice.
E.g. Autore / autrice, giocatore /giocatrice, attore / attrice, scrittore /scrittrice (writer).

There are at least three very common words with one should keep in mind.
Salt, honey, milk, blood are masculin in Italian and French (le sel / il sale, le miel / il miele, le lait / il latte, le sang / il sangue) whereas they are feminin in Spanish (la sal, la miel, la leche, la sangre).

I'm sure some more general rules could be set ouy... I hope I'll get some ideas later on.....


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## Outsider

Most Spanish nouns ending in _-aje_ are masculine. Most Portuguese nouns ending in _-agem_ are feminine. One example: _mensaje_ / _mensagem_ "message".

P.S. DrLindenbrock's examples are excellent. I've just remembered a more "adult-oriented" one: the feminine C-word is feminine in Portuguese, but masculine in Spanish. Of course, these things can vary even within each language.


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## jester.

"flower" is also an example:

FR: la fleur (f.)
SP: la flor (f.)
IT: il fiore (m.)


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## avalon2004

Spanish- El planeta (masculine)
Portuguese- O planeta (masculine)
Italian- Il pianeta (masculine)
French- La planète (feminine)

I don't know why French breaks the mould here...


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## jazyk

Port. = Portuguese
Sp. = Spanish
It. = Italian
Fr. = French
Cat. = Catalan
Ro. = Romanian
m. = masculine
f. = feminine
n. = neuter

Port. a ponte, Sp. el puente, It. il ponte, Fr. le pont, Cat. el pont, Ro. punte (f.)
Port. a árvore, Sp. el árbol, It. l'albero (m.), Fr. l'arbre (m.), Cat. l'arbre (m.)
Port. o nariz, Sp. la nariz, It. il naso, Fr. le nez, Cat. el nas, Ro. nas (n.)
Port. o lábio, Sp. el labio, It. il labbro, Fr. la lèvre, Cat. el llavi
Port. o massacre, Sp. la masacre, It. il massacre, Fr. le massacre, Cat. la massacre, Ro. masacru (n.)
Port. o protesto, Sp./It./Cat. la protesta, Fr. la protestation, Ro. protest (n.)
Port. o tomate, Sp. el tomate, It. il pomodoro, Fr. la tomate, Cat. el tomàquet
Port. o dente, Sp. el diente, It. il dente, Fr./Cat. la dent, Ro. dinte (m.)
Port. o labor, Sp./Cat. la labor, It. il lavoro, Fr. le labeur
Port. o sal, Sp./Cat. la sal, It. il sale, Fr. le sel, Ro. sare (f.)
Port. o mel, Sp. la miel, It. il miele, Fr. le miel, Cat. la mel, Ro. miere (f.)
Port. o planeta, Sp./Cat. el planeta, It. il pianeta, Fr. la planète, Ro. planetă (f.)
Port. o sangue, Sp. la sangre, It. il sangue, Fr. le sang, Cat. la sang, Ro. sânge (n.)


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## ronanpoirier

A dor (f. Pt) - Il dolore (m. It) = the pain
O mar (m. Pt) - La mer (f. Fr) = the sea

Those are the only ones I remember by now.


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## Setwale_Charm

This one is a really useful thread. Thanks for displaying the entire mostrosity of the perfidiousness of the Romance languages.


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## albondiga

Thanks to everyone who has responded with examples so far, especially jazyk for going beyond the call...



avalon2004 said:


> I don't know why French breaks the mould here...



This comment makes me wonder: Does anyone know the reason for any of these variations?


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## ronanpoirier

Another question! Why not add Romanian and Catalan to the list?  That would be way interesting.

EDIT: Oh, now I see jazyk added those too, and that's why albondiga said he went beyond the call. I've been so slow these days...

EDIT²: OK! I just don't wanna play stupid here, why not adding Latin?


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## albondiga

ronanpoirier said:


> Another question! Why not add Romanian and Catalan to the list?  That would be way interesting.
> 
> EDIT: Oh, now I see jazyk added those too, and that's why albondiga said he went beyond the call. I've been so slow these days...



Exactly... Comparing Spanish/Portuguese/Italian/French satisfies my practical interest as I'm studying those at varying levels, as well as my general linguistic interest...  Adding Romanian and Catalan satisfies only my general linguistic interest as I'm not (yet  ) studying those, but that's reason enough for me to appreciate any contributions...

Another question: Does anyone know whether variations of this sort among the Romance languages occur with greater or less frequency than they do within other language groups (Slavic, Semitic, etc.)?


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## Setwale_Charm

ronanpoirier said:


> Another question! Why not add Romanian and Catalan to the list?  That would be way interesting.
> 
> EDIT: Oh, now I see jazyk added those too, and that's why albondiga said he went beyond the call. I've been so slow these days...
> 
> EDIT²: OK! I just don't wanna play stupid here, why not adding Latin?


Do not forget, there are also Provencal, Moldovan, Corsican, Galician, Asturian...what not


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## jazyk

> EDIT²: OK! I just don't wanna play stupid here, why not adding Latin?


In La. (Latin), the first word given is nominative and the second is genitive.

Port. a ponte, Sp. el puente, It. il ponte, Fr. le pont, Cat. el pont, Ro. punte (f.), La. pons, pontis (m.)
Port. a árvore, Sp. el árbol, It. l'albero (m.), Fr. l'arbre (m.), Cat. l'arbre (m.), La. arbor, arboris (m.)
Port. o nariz, Sp. la nariz, It. il naso, Fr. le nez, Cat. el nas, Ro. nas (n.), La. nasus, nasi (m.)/nasum, nasi (n.)
Port. o lábio, Sp. el labio, It. il labbro, Fr. la lèvre, Cat. el llavi, La. labium, labi(i) (n.)
Port. o massacre, Sp. la masacre, It. il massacre, Fr. le massacre, Cat. la massacre, Ro. masacru (n.)
Port. o protesto, Sp./It./Cat. la protesta, Fr. la protestation, Ro. protest (n.), La. protestatio, protestations (f.)
Port. o tomate, Sp. el tomate, It. il pomodoro, Fr. la tomate, Cat. el tomàquet
Port. o dente, Sp. el diente, It. il dente, Fr./Cat. la dent, Ro. dinte (m.), La. dens, dentis (m.)
Port. o labor, Sp./Cat. la labor, It. il lavoro, Fr. le labeur, La. labor, laboris (m.)
Port. o sal, Sp./Cat. la sal, It. il sale, Fr. le sel, Ro. sare (f.), La. sal, salis (n.)
Port. o mel, Sp. la miel, It. il miele, Fr. le miel, Cat. la mel, Ro. miere (f.), La. mel, mellis (n.)
Port. o planeta, Sp./Cat. el planeta, It. il pianeta, Fr. la planète, Ro. planetă (f.), La. planetae, planetarum (m.pl.).
Port. o sangue, Sp. la sangre, It. il sangue, Fr. le sang, Cat. la sang, Ro. sânge (n.), La. sanguis, sanguinis (m.)



> Do not forget, there are also Provencal, Moldovan, Corsican, Galician, Asturian...what not


Exactly. Why not? Let's see if somebody knows them.


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## cajzl

> Port. a árvore, Sp. el árbol, It. l'albero (m.), Fr. l'arbre (m.), Cat. l'arbre (m.), La. arbor, arboris (m.)


Arbor is feminine in Latin.

In Latin the names of trees are usually feminine. Even if they are o-stem or u-stem nouns (fagus, quercus, ...).


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## jazyk

Yes, it is. Sorry for that. I guess I got confused with so many similar languages.


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## robbie_SWE

Just wanted to add those words in Romanian that were missing from your list Jazyk and their gender. 

Romanian: 
2. *arbore* (m.)
4. in Romanian you can use the word *labrum** (n.) for "_lip_", but the most common is "_buză_". 
7. *tomată* (f.) 
9. the word "_lavoro_" is not present in Romanian. 

Hope this helped in this discussion! 

 robbie


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## konungursvia

I think the reason for these differences is that when Vulgar Latin "degraded" into early Galego-Portuguese, Occitan, French, etc., different cases became the most popular simplifications, bringing different endings in each language when the dative and accusative were "lost". The same goes for plurals, some languages having -s, others having -i.


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## Outsider

albondiga said:


> This comment makes me wonder: Does anyone know the reason for any of these variations?


The short answer is that I don't know. But, for example, in the case of French _planète_ it could have been due to the interference of the common feminine suffix _-ette_. And in the case of _la mer_ it could -- perhaps -- have been due to the interference of _la mère_.
Just $0.02.


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## J.F. de TROYES

Outsider said:


> The short answer is that I don't know. But, for example, in the case of French _planète_ it could have been due to the interference of the common feminine suffix _-ette_. And in the case of _la mer_ it could -- perhaps -- have been due to the interference of _la mère_.
> Just $0.02.


ab


Good question, indeed ! I am not sure at all, but this is my explanation:
 
*La planète*

"planète"  comes from vulgar Latin  "planeta "  , being derived from classical Latin " planetae/-arum ", ( ther's no singular in Clas.Latin ) a MASC.Pl., though most of Latin words ending in -ae/arum are FEM.PLURAL ( "rosae" is the plural of "rosa",Fem ) . Why MASC. ? Because the word is actually the Greek word " πλανήτης "(Sing. "planètès" ) / πλανήται (Pl. "planètaï " ) which is a MASC. and means "wandering " or "wanderer". So the word is originally a masculine , but from the early middle age it is
felt in France as a feminine according to the model: "rosae" FEM.PLUR. < "rosa " FEM.SING , so "planeta", coming   from"planetae" is felt as a feminine .  Moreover most of latin words ending in -a  become Fem. in French: "Sequana" (the Seine river ) is Masc. in Latin , but Fem. in French: "la Seine". 
 
*La mer*
Nothing is certain either.I read that maybe it's due to the couple "mer/terre" ( sea/land ) :* la* terre , so *la* mer. (?)
My guess is that most of the French words with a last syllable pronounced "ère" ( close to "fair" ) are  feminine; there are a lot of such feminine words because many masc. names and adjectives ending in -er ( close to "late" )  have correspondant feminines in -ère: "le boulanger, la boulangère" (the baker ) , "le banquier, la banquière" (the banker)..., "dernier , masc., dernière,fem".,  "régulier, régulière" ... So the final syllabes pronounced "ère" - no matter the spelling- sound feminine to a French ear, even though there are exceptions.


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## J.F. de TROYES

Outsider said:


> The short answer is that I don't know. But, for example, in the case of French _planète_ it could have been due to the interference of the common feminine suffix _-ette_. And in the case of _la mer_ it could -- perhaps -- have been due to the interference of _la mère_.
> Just $0.02.


 
In agreement with Outsider I'd like to add that the sea (  because of its gender and the homonimy mer/mère ) is deeply felt in French as having a feminine nature , what results in poetic implications. The novelist D. Fernandez has written a book entitled:     "Mère Méditerranée" ( Mediterranean mother ).


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## jazyk

Port. o minuto, Sp. el minuto, It. il minuto, Fr. la minute, Cat. el minut, Ro. minut (n.)


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## Jeedade

It: il conto, Sp: la cuenta, PT: a conta


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## DrLindenbrock

Prison: Lat. carcěr / carcěris (masc.), It. (il) carcere (m.), Cat. (el) càrcer (m.), Sp. (la) cárcel (f.), Port. (o) cárcere (m.) 

PS I had said that in Portoguese the word was feminine. It is masculine and I corrected it after Outsider told me about it in the post you find immediately after this. This is just to clarify how the discussion evolved.


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## Outsider

DrLindenbrock said:


> Port. (a) cárcere (f.)


"Cárcere" is masculine in Portuguese.

Although we usually say _prisão_ (m.)


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## DrLindenbrock

Oops sorry! I had looked on "our" dictionary. Now I checked better and it's all right, but for how the page is set I had got confused and thought there was an f. for feminin there.
Well, thanks for the correction!


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## jazyk

Port. o olor, Sp. el olor, Cat. la olor.


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## olivinha

Outsider said:


> Although we usually say _prisão_ *(m.)*


 
_prisão_ *(f.)* in Brazil.
O


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## Outsider

Oops, you're right, it's feminine. I made a mistake.


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## albondiga

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this, but there's a disregard for geographic expectations here.  To use the first example from jazyk's list early in the thread:



jazyk said:


> Port. a ponte, Sp. el puente, It. il ponte, Fr. le pont, Cat. el pont, Ro. punte (f.), La. pons, pontis (m.)



Masculine in Latin, kept masculine by Spanish, Catalan, French, and Italian, but has become feminine in (1) Portuguese and (2) Romanian, which are quite distant geographically (in the context of Romance languages)... 

It is particularly words like this for which it would (a) be interesting to know about the development in those languages which diverged from Latin, and (b) be interesting to know what has developed in Occitan, Corsican, Galician, Sicilian, etc.  Anyone who speaks any other Romance languages that can add them onto jazyk's list or the other examples that have been given in this thread?


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## albondiga

jazyk said:


> Port. a ponte, Sp. el puente, It. il ponte, Fr. le pont, Cat. el pont, Ro. punte (f.), La. pons, pontis (m.)
> Port. a árvore, Sp. el árbol, It. l'albero (m.), Fr. l'arbre (m.), Cat. l'arbre (m.), La. arbor, arboris (m.)
> Port. o nariz, Sp. la nariz, It. il naso, Fr. le nez, Cat. el nas, Ro. nas (n.), La. nasus, nasi (m.)/nasum, nasi (n.)
> Port. o lábio, Sp. el labio, It. il labbro, Fr. la lèvre, Cat. el llavi, La. labium, labi(i) (n.)
> Port. o massacre, Sp. la masacre, It. il massacre, Fr. le massacre, Cat. la massacre, Ro. masacru (n.)
> Port. o protesto, Sp./It./Cat. la protesta, Fr. la protestation, Ro. protest (n.), La. protestatio, protestations (f.)
> Port. o tomate, Sp. el tomate, It. il pomodoro, Fr. la tomate, Cat. el tomàquet
> Port. o dente, Sp. el diente, It. il dente, Fr./Cat. la dent, Ro. dinte (m.), La. dens, dentis (m.)
> Port. o labor, Sp./Cat. la labor, It. il lavoro, Fr. le labeur, La. labor, laboris (m.)
> Port. o sal, Sp./Cat. la sal, It. il sale, Fr. le sel, Ro. sare (f.), La. sal, salis (n.)
> Port. o mel, Sp. la miel, It. il miele, Fr. le miel, Cat. la mel, Ro. miere (f.), La. mel, mellis (n.)
> Port. o planeta, Sp./Cat. el planeta, It. il pianeta, Fr. la planète, Ro. planetă (f.), La. planetae, planetarum (m.pl.).
> Port. o sangue, Sp. la sangre, It. il sangue, Fr. le sang, Cat. la sang, Ro. sânge (n.), La. sanguis, sanguinis (m.)



To follow up on my last post, compare that example with some others:

Bridge: feminine in Portuguese and Romanian, masculine in Spanish, Catalan, French, and Italian
Salt, Honey: masculine only in Portuguese, French and Italian; feminine in Spanish, Catalan, and Romanian
Nose: masculine in those same three plus Catalan, feminine in Spanish, neuter in Romanian

On my second glance they're not all as bad as I first thought, but still not exactly following any kind of real patterns...


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## DrLindenbrock

jazyk said:


> Port. o olor, Sp. el olor, Cat. la olor.


 
It. (l') odore (m.)

As for Albondiga's post, I think it is correct to assume geographical proximity influences changes...but normally, more "peripheric" dialects of a language tend to retain features that become archaic in more "central" dialects. I don't have a particular reference to quote, this is what I 've read around, both in books and the internet.
Just an example: Romanian is the only major Romance language which retained some of the case system of Latin.
Ok, another example: most Romance languages (not French, ok) derive the word "house" from Latin "casa" (with slight variations in spelling or pronunciation), which in Latin actually meant "hut", "shack".
In Latin (one of numerous words for) house was "domus", and this is retained in Sardinian (also a historically very isolated language) as "domo", but only there.


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## jazyk

> It. (l') odore (m.)


I didn't want to include Italian, since I was talking about o*l*or. I would have included Italian if I had been talking about o odor, el odor, l'odeur (f.), etc.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

u figu (m. corsican), une figue (f. French), un higo (m. Spanish),  un fico  (m. Italian)... strange only French is feminine here...


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## jazyk

Um figo (m.) in Portuguese to add to your list.


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## DrLindenbrock

jazyk said:


> I didn't want to include Italian, since I was talking about o*l*or. I would have included Italian if I had been talking about o odor, el odor, l'odeur (f.), etc.


 
Hi!
Hm, I automatically included Italian because I was sure "odore" had the same etymology, i.e. the fact that some have the D and some the L is due to the fact that Latin had two words: odor/odoris (more frequent, I believe) ans olor/oloris, both meaning smell, scent, odor.

Anyway, to be accurate I did some research on the web.
Something that might get things clear is that the Portoguese wikipedia says the following with respect to the word "odor" (last updated: 15:24, Sept. 9th 2006): 
_*Odor* é o mesmo que cheiro, a percepção do __olfato__. Tem como sinônimo poético a variante *olor*. Ao estudo do odor dá-se o nome de __osmologia_

Furthermore, the RAE dictionary (of Spanish) does not have an entry for _odor_ (with a D), it just has _odor_. But I "googled" "odor" and there are some occurences, so on this I'll wait for others to say something.

On the other hand, in Italian we only say _odore_ (with a D), never _olore_, but we have a series of words, like olezzo (kind of unpleasent smell), olfatto (sense of smell), aulente (poetic word describing something having a pleasant odor, e.g. flowers), which have an L and not a D, so this shows different paths in the evolution of words with a common etymology.

Ok, to recap, I think we can provide the following scheme since the etymology appears to be the same (I didn't investigate much on the French and Catalan, as I believe Jazyk was sure about those  ).

Lat. Odor/odoris & Olor/oloris (both masc.); Port. o olor (m.); Sp. el olor (m.); Cat. la olor (f.); Fr. l'odeur (f.); It. l'odore (m.).

PS this a question for Catalan speakers: shouldn't the article before "olor" become L'? It precedes a vowels and this vowels is not an unstressed I or U? I was wondering...

Enjoy posting


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## robbie_SWE

I'm just obligated to add the Romanian word for it: 

*odor* _(n.)_

Feels much better now!  

 robbie


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## jazyk

> PS this a question for Catalan speakers: shouldn't the article before "olor" become L'? It precedes a vowels and this vowels is not an unstressed I or U? I was wondering...


It certainly should. I think I separated it to show that the word was feminine, but that would be wrong for all intents and purposes.


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## albondiga

DrLindenbrock said:


> As for Albondiga's post, I think it is correct to assume geographical proximity influences changes...but normally, more "peripheric" dialects of a language tend to retain features that become archaic in more "central" dialects. I don't have a particular reference to quote, this is what I 've read around, both in books and the internet.
> Just an example: Romanian is the only major Romance language which retained some of the case system of Latin.
> Ok, another example: most Romance languages (not French, ok) derive the word "house" from Latin "casa" (with slight variations in spelling or pronunciation), which in Latin actually meant "hut", "shack".
> In Latin (one of numerous words for) house was "domus", and this is retained in Sardinian (also a historically very isolated language) as "domo", but only there.



Out of curiosity, I tabulated how often each of the seven languages in jazyk's second post had matching genders (again, these are cases where others have diverged)... Now obviously this is not a scientific sample (dependent upon lots of factors, including jazyk's own familiarity with these languages), but useful to evaluate your point.  (I did this quickly, so hopefully none of these numbers are off, either in the calculation or the trancription into this post...)  Note also that some cognates were missing for Romanian (4) and Latin (2)... the rest of the numbers are out of 13 total.

Portuguese: Spanish (4) Italian (10) French (6) Catalan (4) Romanian (2) Latin (5)

Spanish: Portuguese (4) Italian (7) French (3) Catalan (11) Romanian (3) Latin (5)

Italian: Portuguese (10) Spanish (7) French (9) Catalan (7) Romanian (1) Latin (8)

French: Portuguese (6) Spanish (3) Italian (9) Catalan (5) Romanian (1) Latin (6)

Catalan: Portuguese (4) Spanish (11) Italian (7) French (5) Romanian (2) Latin (5)

Romanian: Portuguese (2) Spanish (3) Italian (1) French (1) Catalan (2) Latin (2)

Latin: Portuguese (5) Spanish (5) Italian (8) French (6) Catalan (5) Romanian (2)

So a couple of points here:

a) Following up on your point about "peripheric" languages retaining features of the original, that is certainly not reflected here; French and Italian were the two most likely to match the original Latin gender, Romanian the least likely.  Another side point about Romanian here is that it differed most from the others, in part because of the number of neuter nouns; yet the instances where Romanian was neuter did not necessarily match the instances where the original Latin was neuter.  (Also strange is that it matched Spanish more than the others, but not by much... so it probably doesn't mean anything.)

b) The two most likely languages to match were Spanish and Catalan (11 times), which is not surprising.  But the next language pair most likely to match was Portuguese and Italian, 10 times!  This seems strange in the geographic context, but a quick glance will reveal that in those 13 cases noted by jazyk in which the Romance languages vary, both Italian (12) and Portuguese (11) are almost always masculine... while again it's a small unscientific sample size, it might reflect some characteristic of the development of those two languages... additionally, most of the Latin examples were either masculine (6), neuter (3) or both (1), so this would fit in somewhat with your point about languages on the periphery being closer to the original in some cases.  

(It still seems a bit strange that Portuguese managed to match Italian 10 times, yet matched no other language more than 6 times... the fact that it matches Spanish only 4 times is interesting as well, but this might be explained in part by greater familiarity on jazyk's part with instances in which the Spanish and Portuguese differ.)

c) Still, no real patterns... in some cases geographical proximity matters, in others centrality/"peripherality" matters, in others nothing seems to matter...

I'm sure there'd be a lot more to discuss if there was a longer list (i.e., greater sample size), especially if it included the other languages along the continuum... If I ever go back to school for a degree in linguistics, I think I know what my thesis topic might involve ...


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## robbie_SWE

Just a question Albondiga: did you take the missing words in Romanian that I added in post #20?? I added the missing words in Romanian, but here they are again to spare you from going back to the first page: 



> Romanian:
> 2. *arbore* (m.)
> 4. in Romanian you can use the word *labrum** (n.) for "_lip_", but the most common is "_buză_".
> 7. *tomată* (f.)
> 9. the word "_lavoro_" is not present in Romanian.


 
 robbie


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## Toxina

robbie_SWE, are you sure that in romanian is used the word "*labrum*"? 
The most common is indeed "*buză*". But there is another one: "*labial*". This is often used when we talk about a sound articulated at the lips level.
Maybe you wanted to say "*labium*"(n.)...which is the lower lip of insects, and in botany is used when we talk about the shape of a leaf, but again it isn't very common.


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## robbie_SWE

Hmm...strange! According to DEX it's "*labrum*". You can check it out. 

http://dexonline.ro/search.php?cuv=labrum

And you're totaly right, it's very uncommon but it is a correct cognate since it comes from the Latin word for "lip". 

Multumesc! 

Salut! 

 robbie


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## Toxina

...ok...uncommon and strange. Anyway both "labrum" and "labium" exist: "*labrum*" *is the the upper lip and* "*labium*" *is the lower lip of insects* as you can see (I wasn't able to put a link because I haven't made 30 posts but if you search "labium" on dexonline you will find it)
But...if I may add something off-topic..."labrum" is more uncommon than "labium", and I only asked if you are sure that the word is used....I believed you that it exists


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## albondiga

robbie_SWE said:


> Just a question Albondiga: did you take the missing words in Romanian that I added in post #20?? I added the missing words in Romanian, but here they are again to spare you from going back to the first page:
> 
> robbie



Oops, forgot about that, and also the note about the gender of the Latin _Arbor_ in post #18... so _(and I'm sure some of this is getting messed up since it would probably be better for me to use a spreadsheet rather than just sight-counting, but I'm not going to put TOO much effort into this )_ the new numbers are:

Portuguese: Spanish (4) Italian (10) French (6) Catalan (4) Romanian (2) Latin (4)

Spanish: Portuguese (4) Italian (7) French (3) Catalan (11) Romanian (4) Latin (4)

Italian: Portuguese (10) Spanish (7) French (9) Catalan (7) Romanian (2) Latin (7)

French: Portuguese (6) Spanish (3) Italian (9) Catalan (5) Romanian (3) Latin (5)

Catalan: Portuguese (4) Spanish (11) Italian (7) French (5) Romanian (3) Latin (4)

Romanian: Portuguese (2) Spanish (4) Italian (2) French (3) Catalan (3) Latin (2) 

Latin: Portuguese (4) Spanish (4) Italian (7) French (5) Catalan (4) Romanian (2)

(I hope these numbers are right, since I'm adding these up in my head... Note: I did include the Romanian _labrum _in the count, since it does exist as a cognate...)

Anyway, I think all of the points from my post above still stand with these modified numbers...

(don't change anything else now! )


----------



## albondiga

I was just wondering if anyone who has familiarity with Romance languages as well as one or more other language families (Slavic, Germanic, Semitic, or whatever) could tell me if this phenomenon is less common among the Romance languages than in whichever of those families you are familiar (or about equally common, or more common)...

(no need to give lists from other families, we want to keep this on topic ... just a comparison)

Thanks...


----------



## jazyk

I think it's much more common in Romance languages than in Slavic or Germanic languages. The only examples I can think of right now are Polish bank (m.), Czech banka (f.); Polish adres (m.), Czech adresa (f.); German Buch (n.), Dutch boek (n.), Swedish bok (common gender),  Danish bog (common gender); German Brief (m.), Dutch brief (common gender), Swedish/Danish brev (neuter).

Common gender is, very roughly, nouns that are not neuter, since the distinction masculine vs. feminine is not relevant in most cases.

I don't know if this answers your question.


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## albondiga

jazyk said:


> I don't know if this answers your question.



You couldn't have answered my question more directly than you did...  Thanks!

Anyway, I've got some  more:

Port: a equipe, Sp: el equipo, Fr: l'équipe (f)
Port: o riso, Sp: la risa, It: il riso, Fr: le rire
Port: o sorriso, Sp: la sonrisa, It: il sorriso, Fr: le sourire

(Sorry, not familiar with the other languages, feel free to add them  )


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## ronanpoirier

I don't if these two have the same origin, but here they are:

Port: o pavor, It: la paura


----------



## padredeocho

albondiga said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone can give me some examples of words that are cognates between two or more of these four Romance languages, but for which the gender is different in at least one. (Just as an example of one of the many possible combinations: a word that exists as a cognate in Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian, yet is masculine in Spanish and Portuguese but feminine in Italian...)
> 
> Any examples greatly appreciated... thanks!


 
*cion* suffix universally female, but not *ion* like avion y camion


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## robbie_SWE

Romanian: 

*o echipă (f.)*
*un râs (n.) *
*un surâs (n.)*

In Romanian we don't have the cognate "pavor/paura" instead we use "*teamă*" (_Lat._ timere) and "*frică*" (_Ngr. _phrikē). 

Hope this helped! 

 robbie


----------



## jester.

ronanpoirier said:


> I don't if these two have the same origin, but here they are:
> 
> Port: o pavor, It: la paura





robbie_SWE said:


> In Romanian we don't have the cognate "pavor/paura" instead we use "*teamă*" (_Lat._ timere) and "*frică*" (_Ngr. _phrikē).



French: la peur

The Spanish equivalent is not related to this word stem. It's el miedo.


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## olivinha

jester. said:


> The Spanish equivalent is not related to this word stem. It's el miedo.


 
Yes, there is pavor (m) in Spanish.

O


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## jester.

Según mi diccionario "pavor" significa más bien horror que miedo.


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## jazyk

Sp.: Les tiene pavor a las arañas.
Port.: Tem pavor de aranha.
Eng.: He/She's terrified of spiders.


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## ronanpoirier

Hey! What about the letters?
I always learned like: o "a", o "b", o "c". But I see in Spanish people saying: la "a", la "b", la "c".


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## jester.

In French it's l'a (m.), le b, le c, le d, ... .


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## spielenschach

Talant said:


> Uf, there are lots. For instance most words that end in "-eur" in French are feminine, and end in "-or" in Spanish and are masculine: Erreur (f) - Error (m); Valeur (f) - Valor (m);....


 
 RENARD m. - raposa f.
oie f. - ganso m.


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## DrLindenbrock

jester. said:


> In French it's l'a (m.), le b, le c, le d, ... .


 
In Italian letters are feminine: la A, la B, ..., la Z.


----------



## jazyk

> RENARD m. - raposa f.
> oie f. - ganso m.


But these are not cognates.


----------



## albondiga

DrLindenbrock said:


> In Italian letters are feminine: la A, la B, ..., la Z.



So letters are masculine in Portuguese and French, and feminine in Spanish and Italian...

Anyone know about the gender of the letters in Latin or its other descendants?


----------



## Sepia

Talant said:


> Oops, I forgot to add. My rule does not apply to derivative words. "farceur" comes from "farce" and it's masculine,....


 
I am not sure that that rule would work either.

But "eur" words that describe persons or objects are masculine.


----------



## DrLindenbrock

albondiga said:


> So letters are masculine in Portuguese and French, and feminine in Spanish and Italian...
> 
> Anyone know about the gender of the letters in Latin or its other descendants?


 
My Latin dictionary says A, B and C can be either feminin or neuter... I presume this is valid for all letters.... I'll check later, if you really want me to


----------



## olivinha

albondiga said:


> So letters are masculine in Portuguese and French, and feminine in Spanish and Italian...


 
Regarding Portuguese, yes, letters are masculine but the word _letter_, itself, is feminine. 
So it is:
"o A" (preceded by masculine article), but
"a letra A" (the letter A, preceded by feminine article).

O


----------



## albondiga

DrLindenbrock said:


> My Latin dictionary says A, B and C can be either feminin or neuter... I presume this is valid for all letters.... I'll check later, if you really want me to



Why would some of the letters have different genders than the rest?  Latin grammar isn't that unpredictable, is it?


----------



## albondiga

Just encountered an interesting one: _tigre _is shown in the dictionaries as masculine in Spanish, Portuguese, and French, but feminine in Italian (checked three different dictionaries, including a spagnolo-italiano one  )... 

I would think that it could probably be used either way in all four depending on the sex of the animal, but it's interesting that the default gender on this one differs from the others in Italian...  I'm wondering why...


----------



## robbie_SWE

_Tiger_ in Romanian is "*tigru*" and it is masculine. 

 robbie


----------



## J.F. de TROYES

Generally speaking  "tigre " in French is masculine as far as the species is concerned, for the female there is a feminine "la tigresse". It's the same for "le lion", "la lionne".


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## Dymn

More:

*pt* _o vale _(m), *es* _el valle _(m), *ca *_la vall _(f), *fr *_la vallée _(f), *it *_la valle _(f), *ro *_vale _(f)
*pt *_a cor _(f), *es *_el color _(m), *ca *_el color_ (m), *fr *_la couleur _(f), *it *_il colore_ (m), *ro *_culoare _(f)
*pt *_o chocolate _(m), *es *_el chocolate _(m), *ca *_la xocolata _(f), *fr *_le chocolat _(m), *it *_il cioccolato _(m), *ro *_ciocolată _(f)
*pt *_a bactéria _(f), *es *_la bacteria _(f), *ca *_el bacteri _(m), *fr *_la bactérie _(f), *it *_il batterio _(m), *ro *_bacterie _(f)
*pt *_a ordem _(f), *es *_el orden _(m), *ca *_l'ordre _(m), *fr *_l'ordre _(m), *it *_l'ordine _(m), *ro *_ordine _(f); ("arrangement")
*pt *_a ordem _(f), *es *_la orden _(f), *ca *_l'ordre _(f), *fr *_l'ordre _(m), *it *_l'ordine _(m), *ro *_ordin _(n); ("command")
*pt *_o calor _(m), *es *_el calor _(m), *ca *_la calor _(f), *fr *_la chaleur _(f), *it *_il calore _(m), *ro *_căldură _(f)
*pt *_o limite _(m), *es *_el límite _(m), *ca *_el límit _(m), *fr *_la limite _(f), *it *_il limite _(m), *ro *_limită _(f)


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## Sardokan1.0

In Italian and Sardinian there are a lot of examples :

*It*. l'estate (f) *Sar*. s'istìu (m) - summer
*It*. la primavera (f) *Sar*. su berànu (m) - spring
*It*. la sera (f) *Sar*. su sero (m) - evening
*It*. la notte (f) *Sar*. su notte (m) - night
*It*. il fico (m) *Sar*. sa figu (f) - fig
*It*. la testuggine (f) *Sar*. su tostòine (m) - turtle
*It*. l'orecchio (m) *Sar*. s'orìja (f) - ear (the J is pronounced like Y)
*It*. il dente (m) *Sar*. sa dente (f) - tooth
*It*. l'albero (m) *Sar*. s'àrvure (f) - tree
*It*. il pomodoro (m) *Sar*. sa pumàta (f) - tomato
*It*. il labbro (f) *Sar*. sa lara/lavra (f) - lip
*It*. la pesca (f) *Sar*. su pèssiche, pèssighe (m) - peach (Lat. "persica, persicae")
*It*. l'albicocca (f) *Sar*. su paracocco, barracocco (m) - apricot (Lat. "praecocus")
*It*. la neve (f) *Sar*. su nie (m) - snow
*It*. la grandine (f) *Sar*. su ràndine (m) - hail
*It*. il merlo (m) *Sar*. sa mèrula (f) - blackbird


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## jmx

In Spanish there is also variation inside the language:

_olor, calor_, (smell, heat) masculine in the "standard", but often feminine in regional dialects.

_mar_, (sea) usually masculine but also feminine, even in the "standard".

Other words with regional variation of gender: _azúcar_ (sugar), _sartén_ (pan).


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## aum34

Sometimes the gender is different because it comes from different words in latin meaning the same,  with different genders, for example with nose (example mentioned before), we have:

NASUS (masc.) -> cat. el nas , fr. le nez, it. il naso ,ro. nas (n.)
NāRIS  (fem.)-> port, sp. -->In Spanish: La Nariz (fem.)



jester. said:


> Según mi diccionario "pavor" significa más bien horror que miedo.



You are right. In Spanish (and I think in Portuguese is the same) we have: Temor (sp. masc) (from lat. TIMOR,masc), Pavor (sp, masc)  (lat. PAVOR masc)  and Miedo (sp., masc) / Medo (pt) (lat. METUS -masc-.)

Miedo (sp.) is used as a general way to express FEAR.

Temor is a higher degree of Miedo, there is also the verb Temer ( from lat. TIMERE) and Pavor is an extreme fear, kind of horror.


----------



## Cenzontle

Here's a historical complication, supported by an anecdote.
There is a suburb of Los Angeles called "La Puente".
A Spanish-speaker of my acquaintance was taking an attitude of "Tsk, tsk, bad grammar!"
She speculated that the "La" might be derived from "L.A." (= Los Angeles).
In reality, the word "puente" underwent a gender-change operation around the 18th century:  earlier it was more often feminine, like "la fuente" continues to be.


----------



## Pugnator

ronanpoirier said:


> I don't if these two have the same origin, but here they are:
> 
> Port: o pavor, It: la paura


They have not the same origin, and in Italian exist the cognate of "pavor" , it is pavore but it is male.


----------



## Penyafort

Three words that are femenine in Catalan but masculine in all other major Romance languages:

1) 'oregano'

_Catalan _*ORENGA f
---*
_French _*ORIGAN m*
_Italian _*ORIGANO m*
_Portuguese _*ORÉGANO m*
_Romanian _*OREGANO m*
_Spanish _*ORÉGANO m*​2) 'rest (remainder)'

_Catalan _*RESTA f *- _Les darreres restes d'aquella civilització. Les restes mortals._
_---_
_French _*RESTE m* - _Les derniers restes de cette civilisation. Les restes mortels._
_Italian _*RESTO m *- _Gli ultimi resti di quella civiltà. I resti mortali._
_Portuguese _*RESTO m* - _Os últimos restos daquela civilização. Os restos mortais._
_Romanian _*REST n*
_Spanish _*RESTO m *- _Los últimos restos de aquella civilización. Los restos mortales._​
3) 'tuna'

_Catalan _*TONYINA f* - _La tonyina blanca, la tonyina vermella._
_---_
_French _*THON m *- _Le thon blanc, le thon rouge._
_Italian _*TONNO m *- _Il tonno bianco, il tonno rosso._
_Portuguese _*ATUM m *- _O atum branco, o atum vermelho._
_Romanian _*TON m *- _Tonul alb, tonul roşu._
_Spanish _*ATÚN m *- _El atún blanco, el atún rojo._​
​


----------



## Nino83

Italian - Sicilian 
ramo (m.) - rama (f.) 
cucchiaio (m.) - cucchiara (f.)


----------



## Sardokan1.0

more in Italian and Sardinian

*It*. la lepre (f) *Sar*. su lèpere (m) - hare
*It*. l'arancia (f) *Sar*. s'arantzu (m) - orange
*It*. il cucchiaio (m) *Sar*. sa cucciàra / cullera (f) - spoon (cucciàra is typical of north Sardinia, from Spanish "cuchara"; cullera is typical of the south, from Catalan "cullera")
*It*. il caminetto (m) *Sar*. sa tziminèra / tziminèa (f) - fireplace (similar to Italian "ciminiera" = chimney)
*It*. la vespa (f) *Sar*. su 'espe (m) - wasp
*It*. il banco (m) - desk *Sar*. sa banca (f) - table
*It*. il timore (m) *Sar*. sa timòria (f) - fear
*It*. il vestiario (m) *Sar*. sa bestimenta (f) - wardrobe, clothes, vestment, elegant dress
*It*. gli intestini (m) *Sar*. sas istentìnas (f) - intestines
*It*. lo zolfo (m) *Sar*. sa sùlfera / bùlfera / bùlvera (f) - sulphur
*It*. la rapina (f) *Sar*. s'irrobatoriu (m) - robbery
*It*. la ruggine (f) *Sar*. su ruìnzu (m) - rust
*It*. il singhiozzo (m) *Sar*. sa taccullitta / ticcullitta / tuccullitta / singullitta (f) - hiccup


----------



## sound shift

*Cat. *el llet (m) *Spa. *la leche (f) - milk


----------



## Dymn

sound shift said:


> *Cat. *el llet (m) *Spa. *la leche (f) - milk






DrLindenbrock said:


> Salt, honey, milk, blood are masculin in Italian and French (le sel / il sale, le miel / il miele, le lait / il latte, le sang / il sangue) whereas they are feminin in Spanish (la sal, la miel, la leche, la sangre).



And they are feminine too in Catalan: _la sal, la mel, la llet, la sang_.


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## Nino83

Dymn said:


> And they are feminine too in Catalan: _la sal, la mel, la llet, la sang_.


It seems that _sang_ and _sal_ are feminine while _lach_ and _mèl_ are masculine in Occitan.
They are all masculine in Portuguese: _sal, sangue, mel, leite_.
It seems that the gender of these words changed in the Occitan/Catalan/Castillan area.


----------



## Angelo di fuoco

robbie_SWE said:


> Romanian:
> 
> *o echipă (f.)
> un râs (n.)
> un surâs (n.)*
> 
> In Romanian we don't have the cognate "pavor/paura" instead we use "*teamă*" (_Lat._ timere) and "*frică*" (_Ngr. _phrikē).
> 
> Hope this helped!
> 
> robbie



Italian also has the rare téma (f) as opposed to tèma (m, "theme").


----------



## Floridsdorfer

aum34 said:


> Sometimes the gender is different because it comes from different words in latin meaning the same,  with different genders, for example with nose (example mentioned before), we have:
> 
> NASUS (masc.) -> cat. el nas , fr. le nez, it. il naso ,ro. nas (n.)
> NāRIS  (fem.)-> port, sp. -->In Spanish: La Nariz (fem.)
> 
> 
> 
> You are right. In Spanish (and I think in Portuguese is the same) we have: Temor (sp. masc) (from lat. TIMOR,masc), Pavor (sp, masc)  (lat. PAVOR masc)  and Miedo (sp., masc) / Medo (pt) (lat. METUS -masc-.)
> 
> Miedo (sp.) is used as a general way to express FEAR.
> 
> Temor is a higher degree of Miedo, there is also the verb Temer ( from lat. TIMERE) and Pavor is an extreme fear, kind of horror.



In Spanish we also have *la pavura*, so with the same gender as the Italian or French counterpart, even if it is not so common.

From RAE:

pavura

1. f. Temor o pavor.

And always the RAE describes *pavor *as:

1. m. Temor, con espanto o sobresalto.


----------



## Floridsdorfer

Penyafort said:


> Three words that are femenine in Catalan but masculine in all other major Romance languages:
> 
> 1) 'oregano'
> 
> _Catalan _*ORENGA f
> ---*
> _French _*ORIGAN m*
> _Italian _*ORIGANO m*
> _Portuguese _*ORÉGANO m*
> _Romanian _*OREGANO m*
> _Spanish _*ORÉGANO m*​2) 'rest (remainder)'
> 
> _Catalan _*RESTA f *- _Les darreres restes d'aquella civilització. Les restes mortals._
> _---_
> _French _*RESTE m* - _Les derniers restes de cette civilisation. Les restes mortels._
> _Italian _*RESTO m *- _Gli ultimi resti di quella civiltà. I resti mortali._
> _Portuguese _*RESTO m* - _Os últimos restos daquela civilização. Os restos mortais._
> _Romanian _*REST n*
> _Spanish _*RESTO m *- _Los últimos restos de aquella civilización. Los restos mortales._​
> 3) 'tuna'
> 
> _Catalan _*TONYINA f* - _La tonyina blanca, la tonyina vermella._
> _---_
> _French _*THON m *- _Le thon blanc, le thon rouge._
> _Italian _*TONNO m *- _Il tonno bianco, il tonno rosso._
> _Portuguese _*ATUM m *- _O atum branco, o atum vermelho._
> _Romanian _*TON m *- _Tonul alb, tonul roşu._
> _Spanish _*ATÚN m *- _El atún blanco, el atún rojo._​
> ​



I think I have heard in Sassarese *la restha* for the rest, but I'm not 100% sure. There is also* lu resthu*, anyways.
As for *tonyina*, you have this word in feminine even in *Spanish*, *la tonina*, even though it is not so common, so it is not an exclusive Catalan usage.
I quote from the RAE dictionary:

*tonina*


Der. del lat. _thunnus_ 'atún', y este del gr. θύννος _thýnnos._

1. f. atún (‖ pez).

2. f. delfín1.


----------



## Floridsdorfer

robbie_SWE said:


> Romanian:
> 
> *o echipă (f.)
> un râs (n.)
> un surâs (n.)*
> 
> In Romanian we don't have the cognate "pavor/paura" instead we use "*teamă*" (_Lat._ timere) and "*frică*" (_Ngr. _phrikē).
> 
> Hope this helped!
> 
> robbie



We also have *équipe *feminine in French,* l'équipe*, and in Portuguese, *a equip*a in Portugal and *a equipe* in Brazil.
In Spanish it is masculine though, *el equipo*.


----------



## Floridsdorfer

Sardokan1.0 said:


> In Italian and Sardinian there are a lot of examples :
> 
> *It*. l'estate (f) *Sar*. s'istìu (m) - summer
> *It*. la primavera (f) *Sar*. su berànu (m) - spring
> *It*. la sera (f) *Sar*. su sero (m) - evening
> *It*. la notte (f) *Sar*. su notte (m) - night
> *It*. il fico (m) *Sar*. sa figu (f) - fig
> *It*. la testuggine (f) *Sar*. su tostòine (m) - turtle
> *It*. l'orecchio (m) *Sar*. s'orìja (f) - ear (the J is pronounced like Y)
> *It*. il dente (m) *Sar*. sa dente (f) - tooth
> *It*. l'albero (m) *Sar*. s'àrvure (f) - tree
> *It*. il pomodoro (m) *Sar*. sa pumàta (f) - tomato Also *sa tamata* in central Sardinia and *tamàtiga *in the South.
> *It*. il labbro (f) *Sar*. sa lara/lavra (f) - lip
> *It*. la pesca (f) *Sar*. su pèssiche, pèssighe (m) - peach (Lat. "persica, persicae")
> *It*. l'albicocca (f) *Sar*. su paracocco, barracocco (m) - apricot (Lat. "praecocus") *Su piricoc(c)o* in the centre.
> *It*. la neve (f) *Sar*. su nie (m) - snow
> *It*. la grandine (f) *Sar*. su ràndine (m) - hail
> *It*. il merlo (m) *Sar*. sa mèrula (f) - blackbird





Sardokan1.0 said:


> more in Italian and Sardinian
> 
> *It*. la lepre (f) *Sar*. su lèpere (m) - hare
> *It*. l'arancia (f) *Sar*. s'arantzu (m) - orange
> *It*. il cucchiaio (m) *Sar*. sa cucciàra / cullera (f) - spoon (cucciàra is typical of north Sardinia, from Spanish "cuchara"; cullera is typical of the south, from Catalan "cullera")
> *It*. il caminetto (m) *Sar*. sa tziminèra / tziminèa (f) - fireplace (similar to Italian "ciminiera" = chimney) Yes, like Spanish* la chimenea*, for example...In the centre it is *sa giminera*.
> *It*. la vespa (f) *Sar*. su 'espe (m) - wasp Also *su 'espu (ghespu).*
> *It*. il banco (m) - desk *Sar*. sa banca (f) - table
> *It*. il timore (m) *Sar*. sa timòria (f) - fear
> *It*. il vestiario (m) *Sar*. sa bestimenta (f) - wardrobe, clothes, vestment, elegant dress
> *It*. gli intestini (m) *Sar*. sas istentìnas (f) - intestines I didn't know *sas istentinas *but *sas intragnas *(Spanish *las entrañas*).
> *It*. lo zolfo (m) *Sar*. sa sùlfera / bùlfera / bùlvera (f) - sulphur
> *It*. la rapina (f) *Sar*. s'irrobatoriu (m) - robbery
> *It*. la ruggine (f) *Sar*. su ruìnzu (m) - rust
> *It*. il singhiozzo (m) *Sar*. sa taccullitta / ticcullitta / tuccullitta / singullitta (f) - hiccup *Sa tzicuria* more down south.


----------



## Dymn

Some feminine loanwords from French have been adapted as masculine by Spanish: _el equipo, el bucle, el champán, el entrecot, el gofre._


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## Sardokan1.0

*It*. gli intestini (m) *Sar*. sas istentìnas (f) - intestines I didn't know *sas intestinas* but *sas intragnas *(Spanish *las entrañas*).


Also here we use to say "sas intragnas", but it's referred to all the entrails, while "sas istentinas" is specifical to the intestines

p.s.

curiosity :

The same phenomenon of change intestinas -> istentinas; happens also in Corsican language : intestinu -> stintina (pl. stintine)


----------



## Floridsdorfer

Sardokan1.0 said:


> *It*. gli intestini (m) *Sar*. sas istentìnas (f) - intestines I didn't know *sas intestinas* but *sas intragnas *(Spanish *las entrañas*).
> 
> 
> Also here we use to say "sas intragnas", but it's referred to all the entrails, while "sas istentinas" is specifical to the intestines
> 
> p.s.
> 
> curiosity :
> 
> The same phenomenon of change intestinas -> istentinas; happens also in Corsican language : intestinu -> stintina (pl. stintine)



Thanks, it could also be that I heard that, I'm not sure. I will ask my acquaintances if they know the word. 

Does the village Isthintini/Stintino have something to do with that?


----------



## Sardokan1.0

So it seems, even if Massimo Pittau offers another explanation

https://www.luigiladu.it/Articoli/massimo_pittau_stintino_2014.pdf


----------



## Floridsdorfer

Another word that is different in some languages is the noun for *day* (I mean the one derived from Latin _dies_, therefore not _jour/giorno_, for example).
In *Sardinian *is feminine, *sa die/sa dì*, and so is also in *Sassarese/Gallurese*,* la dì*.
In *Romanian *is also feminine, *o zi* (one day).

On the contrary, it is masculine in *Spanish*,* el día*, *Portuguese*, *o dia*, *Catalan*, *el dia*, and *Italian*, *il dì*.


----------



## Sardokan1.0

Floridsdorfer said:


> Another word that is different in some languages is the noun for *day* (I mean the one derived from Latin _dies_, therefore not _jour/giorno_, for example).
> In *Sardinian *is feminine, *sa die/sa dì*, and so is also in *Sassarese/Gallurese*,* la dì*.
> In *Romanian *is also feminine, *o zi* (one day).
> 
> On the contrary, it is masculine in *Spanish*,* el día*, *Portuguese*, *o dia*, *Catalan*, *el dia*, and *Italian*, *il dì*.



In this area of Sardinia (Mejlogu) and in northwestern Sardinia in general we use to say them both masculine and feminine with a slight change of meaning :

Sardinian - Italian

_su die_ = _il giorno_
_sa die_ = _la giornata_

_su notte_ = _la notte_
_sa notte_ = _la nottata_


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## Floridsdorfer

Sardokan1.0 said:


> In this area of Sardinia (Mejlogu) and in northwestern Sardinia in general we use to say them both masculine and feminine with a slight change of meaning :
> 
> Sardinian - Italian
> 
> _su die_ = _il giorno_
> _sa die_ = _la giornata_
> 
> _su notte_ = _la notte_
> _sa notte_ = _la nottata_



Yes I knew that in some parts of Logudoro they also say *su die*, but in central Sardinia as well as in the south it is just *sa die/sa dì*, I am sure, and there is not any difference like in these Italian nouns (_giorno _and _giornata_). The same applies for Sassarese and, as far as I know, for Gallurese.

As for _su notte/sa notte_, I know both depending on the area or both also in the same village. For instance, in the village where I have relatives, central Sardinian more Logudorese than Campidanese, they use both, sometimes without making difference at all, but more masculine anyways, more than all in standard sentences (_at night _is _a su notte_, also _a de notte_), I have never heard such sentences in feminine).
So, they don't make a difference like in Italian _notte/nottata_ here either (_at night_ is in Italian _di notte_, and in Sardinian they say it in masculine). I have always thought that the more ancient or correct was the masculine, and the feminine perhaps because of the Italian influence, but that was just my thought, I have actually no clue about that.


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## Sardokan1.0

About the sentences "di giorno / di notte", the structure here is a bit different :

_di giorno = a de die
di notte = a de notte
a tarda notte = a notte manna
in pieno giorno = a die manna_

while sentences like "di mattina / di sera" have another kind of structure

_di mattina = a parte (d)e manzanu
di sera = a parte (d)e sero
di mattina presto = a manzanu chito
di mattina prestissimo / all'alba = a manzanile
al canto del gallo = a s'impuddile
di pomeriggio = passadu mesu die
di sera tardi = a tardu mannu_


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## Floridsdorfer

Sardokan1.0 said:


> About the sentences "di giorno / di notte", the structure here is a bit different :
> 
> _di giorno = a de die  _Yes it is like that also in my area.
> _di notte = a de notte _The same_.
> a tarda notte = a notte manna _I guess I heard one or both of these, I don't know if they are still very common though. Maybe the first one more.
> _in pieno giorno = a die manna_
> 
> while sentences like "di mattina / di sera" have another kind of structure
> 
> _di mattina = a parte (d)e manzanu _Yes I heard both and they use them, just with "merìe" statt "sero".
> _di sera = a parte (d)e sero
> di mattina presto = a manzanu chito _Very common, but "chitzo" statt "chito".
> _di mattina prestissimo / all'alba = a manzanile _No, they don't use this. That would be "abreschende" ("arbeschende") or "a s'abreschidozu/abreschidògiu", "a s'abrèschida" ("arbèschida").
> _al canto del gallo = a s'impuddile _Neither this, unfortunately. Or at least I haven't heard it.
> _di pomeriggio = passadu mesu die _A bit down south it is a little bit different. They don't use "sero" at all, it doesn't even exist the concept of something like the Italian "sera", while both "the afternoon"/"il pomeriggio" and "the beginning of the evening" are *su merìe* (more to the south, already in the Campidanese area, exactly the same but "su merì"). Afterwards it is *su notte*. That would be starting with the evening already, before "the night" like in English or in Italian and exactly the same as in Spanish with "la tarde" and then "la noche", no "evening" (it is like that also in Catalan and Portuguese). So, "di pomeriggio" is *a merìe* und "di sera" is *a de notte*. For this reason, they never use "passa(d)u mesu die" in this context, it would be useless because that's already "a merìe". If they use this expression they just mean that "midday has already gone".
> _di sera tardi = a tardu mannu_ Sure they use that.



It has occurred to me also the noun for "the morning". It is feminine in some romance languages and masculine in others. 
The origin of the Spanish, Sardinian, Portuguese, Romanian, Sassarese and Gallurese terms is the Latin _(hora) maneāna_, whereas the French, Catalan and Italian counterparts derive from Latin_ (tempus) matutīnum_.

Masculine: *French*, le matin, *Catalan, *el matí, *Sardinian*, su manzanu/mangianu, *Sassarese*, lu manzanu.  

Masculine or feminine: *Italian*, il mattino or la mattina, where_ il mattino _is more "the early morning" and its usage is more limited or specific for some idiomatic phrases like_ di buon mattino_, "early in the morning". 
(By the way in Spanish language we have several words with the same origin like the Italian, French or Catalan: _matutino/a, matutinal, matinal, la matinal, la matiné, los maitines (matines)_ and, even if not in use anymore as the Real Academia says, _el matino_ for "la mañana". In Argentina it is possible to hear, in the colloquial language, _la matina_). 

Feminine: *Spanish*, la mañana, *Portuguese*, a manhã, *Gallurese*, la manzana, *Romanian*, (o) dimineața.


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## Penyafort

Floridsdorfer said:


> As for *tonyina*, you have this word in feminine even in *Spanish*, *la tonina*, even though it is not so common, so it is not an exclusive Catalan usage.
> I quote from the RAE dictionary:
> 
> *tonina*
> 
> 
> Der. del lat. _thunnus_ 'atún', y este del gr. θύννος _thýnnos._
> 
> 1. f. atún (‖ pez).
> 
> 2. f. delfín1.



Interesting, thanks. I would say, though, that it was uncommon in the past and rather obsolete nowadays, because I have never heard or read it and the Corpus does not seem to include it much in the last centuries (and when it does, it looks as if it is referred to the second meaning, a type of dolphin, probably a local usage in some Latin American countries).

I've also found *toñina *in the DRAE, with the mark of Andalusian. I wouldn't be surprised if the origin of it was an old Catalanism introduced by sailors. Some other fish like the *rape *or the *pagel *are Catalanisms in Spanish too. Or it could also be a Mossarabic relic.


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## irinet

jester. said:


> "flower" is also an example:
> 
> FR: la fleur (f.)
> SP: la flor (f.)
> IT: il fiore (m.)



Hi,
I may add that in Romanian, these are feminine: flo_are, culoare, valoare, eroare _and the derivative _jucătoare._


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## irinet

robbie_SWE said:


> Just wanted to add those words in Romanian that were missing from your list Jazyk and their gender.
> 
> Romanian:
> 4. in Romanian you can use the word *labrum** (n.) for "_lip_", but the most common is "_buză_".
> 7. *tomată* (f.)
> robbie



I've never heard of *labrum *to be in usage! It's from Anatomy, which is why this word stays in Latin.
And for 7, we often use *roşii*, which is why 'tomată' can be found on the cans with boiled tomatos: *pastă de tomate.
*
Though we never ask for _tomate_ when going to the market, it's interesting to know how this word has come to be used in a technological process.


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## robbie_SWE

irinet said:


> I've never heard of *labrum *to be in usage! It's from Anatomy, which is why this word stays in Latin.
> And for 7, we often use *roşii*, which is why 'tomată' can be found on the cans with boiled tomatos: *pastă de tomate.
> *
> Though we never ask for _tomate_ when going to the market, it's interesting to know how this word has come to be used in a technological process.



It depends on the context Irinet – when it comes to _labrum_, anatomists and doctors are more likely to use the term than any schmo off the street. The term is also specifically used to designate the upper lip of an insect so it admittedly belongs to scientific vocabulary.

_Tomată _according to DEX is both a regional and literary term.


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## Angelo di fuoco

albondiga said:


> Just encountered an interesting one: _tigre _is shown in the dictionaries as masculine in Spanish, Portuguese, and French, but feminine in Italian (checked three different dictionaries, including a spagnolo-italiano one  )...
> 
> I would think that it could probably be used either way in all four depending on the sex of the animal, but it's interesting that the default gender on this one differs from the others in Italian...  I'm wondering why...



Essentially it's because in Italian the feminine gender of "tigre" is an innovation in relation to the older masculine gender.

tigre in Vocabolario - Treccani


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