# Hungary as Tourkia (Byzantine Greek, =Turkey))



## 2x2isnot4

Anyone familiar with this use of the word "Tourkia=Turkey" to referring to Hungary? It is a 10th century use by the Byzantines to indicate the area where Magyars were living, also note that Magyars are referred as "Tourkoi" (=Turks). Any insights from Hungarian?


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## Zsanna

I did not have a lot of information about it (well, it really means that I had practically nothing ) and having gone through some sites on the net, I am more mixed up now than before... 
I have found one (seemingly reliable) writing in which the name "Turkia" was clearly said to be used for Hungary between 896 and 973. 
Apparently even on our royal crown (that is supposed to have a Byzantine part) there is such a sentence: "Geza, the religious king of Turkia".

I had never heard of this name during my history studies at school, probably because there are some negative sides to that story in our history, apart of the fact that our origins and history is far from being fully understood. (This is why a lot of different people explain it in lots of different ways...)

If you look up the meaning of the word "turanizmus" (that is connected to _turk_ which does not exist in the same dictionary but can be read in scholar studies) in a good one language dictionary - the Magyar Értelmező Kéziszótár (my copy is from 1999) - you'll find the following: 
_Between 1910 and 1945 in Hungary: an over partiotic, racial theory based on the mistaken idea of ancient Hungarians being related to Turanians_ (= their country is supposed to be to the East from the Caspian see).

On some of the sites I've just read, the ancient Hungarians arriving in the Carpathian Basin with Árpád were called "turk" and their language was "turk" as well (which is supposed to be the same - according to some - as Scythian). 
But I'd think that a serious historians get the cold in the back already when the adjective comes up.


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## 2x2isnot4

Zsanna: thank you very much for the input. Actually, I made an initial posting about this subject:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=6782879&posted=1#post6782879

And there, we seem to have reached a conclusion and the last 2 days I have been reading 
Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages By András Róna-Taswhich also quoted in aforementioned thread by Ireney and I am adding the link below:

http://books.google.com/books?id=I-...arians+called+turks+byzantine&hl=en#PPA293,M1

This is a must reading and it answers my initial question in detail, with references that I have not come across before. (Well, that is expected, I am not doing scientific research, just having fun

Couple of things: 

i)the famous Hungarian Royal Crown ( Greek Crown) is mentioned there too and there is a very through analysis. 

ii) Turanizmus, is not there ( at least, I did not see it), better that way  because it is more of a political statement about history with overemphasis on "race". We know where that leads to It has been and still is a reference point in the programs of political parties with some seriously Fascist elements in it, in Turkey. I am sure that might draw parallels with Hungarian political history in the interwar period.

To sum up: this particular use of "Tourkoi" by the Byzantines was referring to Turkic people but not to the Turks( of Turkey). And Hungarians  were definitely contained Turkic elements.  It has been also used for Avars, Huns, Khazars, Bulgarians & Rus and it was not limited to Byzantines either, Arabs referred to Magyars as Türks. Whoever came from that steppe got that name


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## Zsanna

Yes, OK. (It is really very intertesting! I'm glad to have "poked my nose" into this.)

I found a bit clearer explanation from the same Róna-Tas in a speech he gave on Hungarian telly (its full text can be found on the Net under the title of the programme: Mindentudás egyeteme).

Apparently Hungarians always called themselves "magyar" (in one way or another...), 
even though various people called us differently:
the Slavs called us *Ungrin* (I use the same words I read in the article when I'm not sure how to transcribe them into English - apart from starting them in a capital letter), 
the Bulghars from the Volga called us *Bashkir*,
the Kazars (?) were the closest to our own name with "*madzsgar*" [madzgar] (sorry, I can't get to the special characters from here)
and the Byzantines called us "Turk" (it was *türk* in Hungarian).

(It is not exceptional to have so many different names - just think about how many different names the Germans have: allemand, tedesco, német, German, etc. just in Europe meanwhile their own word for themselves is all different: Deutsch.)

R-T. thinks that the Byzantines chose to call us like this because they judged us after the way of life and the way of fighting/warfare which (at the time) must have been very similar to those of Turkic people because we have been in contact with them. 
He says that if we had really been really Turkic people, we would not have called ourselves differently (i.e. magyar).

Just in case it indicates something more to you (than to me): again according to R-T., there are about 300 words in our language that are of Turkish origin. (It does not seem to be too many to me but I got the impression that it could be significative.)


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## 2x2isnot4

Again, the book I mentioned above is trying to answer that question: many names of Magyars... Etymologically speaking, I think, we have no choice but to speculate and back up those claims from history, to the extent it is possible, of course. However, I would say without any hesitation that  for the Byzantines Turkic adjective for Magyars  goes way back, and they associated them with other nomads coming from the Steppe. As for the origin and what that Magyar tribe was made of, it is not up to me to elaborate, books do that but it is hard to avoid to think that in a way or another they were Turkic. And again, Turkic does not mean that they were Turkish. Along these lines an example: please note the etymology of the word  Hungary. In many sources , it is indicated as associated with onoghuz ( tenoğuz- the famous Turkic federation of tribes).  

And a little anecdote: I am not sure about the etymology but a Hungary is Macaristan in Turkish, and Magyar is Macar. I actually wonder how many languages use the right name for the Magyars ( other being Arabic, if I am not wrong, via Turkish)


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