# αποβολή



## redsstone

I came across this etymological reference, and have no idea what αποβολή means in this context. Also, I am assuming that επίδραση is translated by "impacted BY" or "influenced by" in this context, but am wondering why λόγια is plural, or why it's needed at all (being redundant), as επίδραση by itself would refer back to the initial word (why wouldn't it, in a dictionary context?). Thanks for any responses.

 δερβένι < λόγια επίδραση στο ντερβένι < (άμεσο δάνειο) τουρκική derbent + -ι με αποβολή του < περσική دربند (darband)


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## Perseas

αποβολή here is the omission of t in derbent: derbent > derben+ι>ντερβένι
I think the English word is deletion.

λόγια is adjective and it's not plural, it's singular feminine. The three genders are λόγιος (m), λόγια (f), λόγιο (n).
λόγια επίδραση means archaic influence on *ντ*ερβένι, so *ντ* becomes *δ*.
(I'm not sure if "archaic" is the accurate translation, but it's very close)


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## redsstone

I am so grateful for this exchange and the invaluable service everyone provides.

I like your explanation of αποβολή (WordReference only lists:
expulsion
miscarriage 
ejection 
sending off)
...all of which did not make a whole lot of sense.

I found in Lexigram:

λόγιος (scholar, man of letters)

and finally (as you stated):

λόγιος     επίθετο     αρσενικό     θετικός, as well as θηλυκό and ουδέτερο

η λόγια    
της λόγιας    
etc.

and: 

λόγια     επίρρημα

And then there is λόγος
which can be 
αρσενικό: λόγοι (πλ)
OR
ουδέτερο: λόγια (πλ) 

Thus, using "λόγια" in a dictionary setting, it made sense to me that it meant "λόγια ουσ ουδ πλ (speech, words)" as in:

"τα τόσα λόγια που δεν πρόλαβα..."

And what is even more amusing (regarding the complexities of the translating process) is that your explanation of "archaic influence" for "λόγια επίδραση" (which makes total sense in Greek) plays into my thought of redundancy, because in almost every English dictionary-type resource, the word "archaic" (to mean a word out of use, as a descriptive) is always used alone. The implication is that, of course, it is an influence. 

So it goes that not knowing a language's nuances is so critical in translation.

The situation is not altogether different than how strange it sounds to the English speaker to hear the modern Greek say "τα σόσιαλ" or "παίζουμε μπάσκετ". Like, where did the "media" go from social media,  or the "ball" from basketball?  It's both funny and odd. 

What a learning experience. This whole adventure for me (who thought I knew Greek reasonably well) has been a lot of fun. And thank you for contributing to it.


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## sotos

λόγιος/-α/-ον doesn't exactly mean "archaic" but has the sense of "the language of highly educated people, closer to classical greek" (there is no "d" sound in classical Greek). Usually used for pre 20th century texts.


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## redsstone

Thank you for the clarification.
I was aware of "λόγιος" meaning "scholarly" from Lexigram which offers the "(λογ.)" version in many conjugations and declensions. I did not think of applying "scholarly" to this context.


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## ioanell

redsstone said:


> The situation is not altogether different than how strange it sounds to the English speaker to hear the modern Greek say "τα σόσιαλ" or "παίζουμε μπάσκετ". Like, where did the "media" go from social media, or the "ball" from basketball? It's both funny and odd.




Apart from the above, here's my own contribution to your query:


redsstone said:


> WordReference only lists:
> expulsion
> miscarriage
> ejection
> sending off)
> ...all of which did not make a whole lot of sense.


Your puzzlement (?) regarding the correct word choice seems justified, but if one looks into the deeper meaning of these words (except miscarriage), s/he will ascertain the same result: I guess you will agree that all of them mean the deliberate removal of sb/sth out of sth. So, the word αποβολή is very common in Greek Etymology for explaining the derivation and final formation of Greek words, even the ones borrowed from other languages, as in “derbent [<Persian darband]”. The final “t” was expelled, ejected, sent off, removed, ousted, αποβλήθηκε (or απεβλήθη) from the body of the word.

Please, watch the pronunciation below.
λόγιος,-ία, (-ιον) [<λόγος]: (=scholar, man/woman of letters) is pronounced [ló-ji-os, lo-jí-a, three syllables]. This is a nominalised adjective.

λόγια [fem. ló-ji-a, three syllables] επίδραση: (=scholarly influence). This is an adjective.

λόγια (τα) neut. pl. of λόγιον, diminutive [<λόγος]: (=words, speech) is pronounced [ló-ja, two syllables]. This is a noun.

The λόγιοι (scholars) of the 18th and 19th centuries, many of whom Neoatticists, when “cleansing” the language by removing many foreign words (mainly Turkish, Italian [Venetian], Persian and Arabic) and replacing them with revived ancient or older ones or new ones invented on the basis of ancient “materials”, also corrected the writing and pronunciation of many words of demotiki, words which, unfortunately, had been corrupted in a way over the course of many centuries. In this context, they did the same with the pronunciation of many foreign words which, despite their efforts, remained within the Greek language. Ignorant of the findings of contemporary linguistics (MG pronunciation of _β, δ, γ_ as fricatives dates from the first post-Christian centuries), they considered that there weren’t “d”, “b” and “g” plosive consonants in classical Greek and consequently they changed the sounds “d” and “b” of the Turkish [<Persian] word “derben(t)” with the fricative (Greek) consonants “δ” and “β”, and the word, after the development of the ending vowel/suffix “ι”, took its final form “δερβένι” [ðervéni] (=col).


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## redsstone

Apologies for not reading your reply sooner. Thank for the "extreme" effort. Very informative (and time consuming I am sure), indeed!
My only regret is that I am not fluent enough to have such a discussion in Greek.

On a more simplistic level, I have long ago asked why the Hellenistic Greeks dropped the everyday usage of the lovely and poetic sounding word θύρα and went to πόρτα. I would have loved to have seen that totally reversed. I don't remember θύρα being use once in my many trips to Greece, even though it seems like it used with computers, meaning "hub" or "port".

One question: I am not totally clear on the pronunciation difference between the two "λόγια". Did you mean to place the accent on the ιοτα on the first one? (per "pronounced [ló-ji-os, lo-jí-a, three syllables]."


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## ioanell

redsstone said:


> I have long ago asked why the Hellenistic Greeks dropped the everyday usage of the lovely and poetic sounding word θύρα and went to πόρτα.


As I wrote above, the λόγιοι (scholars) of the 18th and 19th centuries, although they “cleansed” the language to a remarkable extent, they did not manage, as they would like, to remove all foreign words which had made their way into Greek and had already been adopted by everyday people. One of these words was *πόρτα *[<Lat. porta=gate of city walls], which, along with many other Latin words, came into the Greek language after the Roman conquest of Greece in 146 B.C. (that is in the Hellenistic period) and, gradually, gained ground over θύρα. Now, we may not say *θύρα* in the everyday language [the word may be heard in special/official occasions], but we say παρά*θυρο*(ν)[=window], which means the opening in the wall beside θύρα, and υπέρ*θυρο* [=lintel], which means the horizontal support across the top of θύρα. The ancient word ‘θύρα’ is used: in a number of set phrases, such as επί θύραις/προ των θυρών, κεκλεισμένων των θυρών etc, in sports [=entrance(s) in a stadium], as diminutive [=ταχ. *θυρίδα*=p.o.box], in compound words, such as θυρόφυλλο, θυρανοίξια, θυρωρός, θυροτηλέφωνο etc., and in the computer and information technology, as you already mentioned [hub, port]. 
N.B. *θύρ*-α is cognate (among others) with the German subfamily words (see German tür, Dutch deur, Danish dør and English door). 



redsstone said:


> I am not totally clear on the pronunciation difference between the two "λόγια".


I hope the following examples will help:
Ασφαλώς, η Σαπφώ ήταν λογία (λο-γί-α) της εποχής της (=Sappho was certainly a scholar of her time).
Η τελική μορφή της λέξης "δερβένι" οφείλεται σε λόγια (λό-γι-α) επίδραση (=the final form of the word "δερβένι" is due to scholar influence).
Τα λόγια (λό-για) σου με πλήγωσαν βαθιά (=your words did hurt me deeply).


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## seriani

Καταρχήν συγχαρητήρια σε όλους τους χρήστες που έχουν εξηγήσει το ζήτημα σε βάθος, και προφανώς δόθηκαν απαντήσεις που δύσκολα πάτησε έβρισκε κανείς σε ένα φόρουμ


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## redsstone

First, to ionaell: Apologies for the late "thank you" for your in-depth reply. This past weekend was a holiday here in the US and I did not take time out to voice my gratitude to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. Second, welcome Seriani as a new member and, yes...I too am very impressed with the efforts contributors made to this thread. My dream is to become proficient enough in Greek to write my thoughts as easily and fluidly as I do in English (without spending hours glued to the dictionary). To that end I am being tutored online through Skype which is profoundly useful.

What I find fascinating (because this concept is totally new to me) is the pronunciation difference between λόγια (λό-γι-α) and λόγια (λό-για). That a person would take the time to make three syllables out of λόγια is remarkable. But, then, language itself is nothing if not remarkable and fluid in all kinds of ways.

So, to continue the thread somewhat, I was reading a newspaper article about the death of Μίκη and came across the following sentence:
"Συγχρόνως, βοήθησε μια ολόκληρη γενιά να αποκτήσει τον δικό της λόγο."
Thanks to this thread, I was able to understand "λόγο" in this context to mean "voice".

I did want to remark on the enormous variety of Turkish words that modern Greeks still use (from καυγάς/καβγάς to χατίρι for χάρη, which are almost identical anyway!). And the amount of English words I hear on TV programs and talk shows is simply astounding! σοκάρομαι, τσεκάρω, κτλ κτλ κτλ.

My own theory is, without any scholarship to back it up, that Greeks love music almost more than any other culture, and love the sounds of language in general, and are very inclusive when it comes to foreign languages, and in the end, love foreign words as much as their own. With the infusion of Chinese tourists, I am waiting for the inclusion of Chinese words next.

The one major surprise (thinking of the ancients all the way to the moderns) is that the Greeks never had a word for μπολ...how odd.


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## ioanell

redsstone said:


> "Συγχρόνως, βοήθησε μια ολόκληρη γενιά να αποκτήσει τον δικό της λόγο."
> Thanks to this thread, I was able to understand "λόγο" in this context to mean "voice".


 


redsstone said:


> I did want to remark on the enormous variety of Turkish words that modern Greeks still use (from καυγάς/καβγάς to χατίρι for χάρη, which are almost identical anyway!). And the amount of English words I hear on TV programs and talk shows is simply astounding! σοκάρομαι, τσεκάρω, κτλ κτλ κτλ.


Have in mind that Greeks were enslaved to the Turks for nearly 4 centuries in southern Greece and nearly 5 centuries in northern Greece. It's always natural for a conqueror to impose at least a part of their language to the enslaved. The same happened with the Romans, when they conquered Greece. The same happened with the colonialist British, when they conquered -literally and metaphorically [through trade and commerce]- countries around the world [see India, for instance], and, finally, the same has happened and is happening by their heirs, the USA, almost all over the world through their financial, commercial, military and cultural [movies and music] “invasion”. That’s why we often say (unjustifiably in my opinion, as there are beautiful Greek words) σοκάρομαι, τσεκάρω etc, etc. This is always the advantage of the conqueror [literally or metaphorically] and the fate of the enslaved. On the other hand, there’s always the matter of the influence of subject peoples on the nations that ruled them.



redsstone said:


> The one major surprise (thinking of the ancients all the way to the moderns) is that the Greeks never had a word for μπολ...how odd.


 What do you mean by μπολ? Could you, please, write the English word and elaborate somehow?


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## redsstone

My mistake. All the recipes I have used say "μπολ" and when I looked up "bowl" last week in WordReference and Glosbe the only entry was  "μπολ". I double-checked just now and "κύπελλο" and "λεκάνη" were available. Don't know what happened the first time around. Apologies for troubling you. Thanks for everything.


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## Αγγελος

Greek pronunciation can usually be inferred  from the spelling with certainty, particularly as we are kind enough to foreign learners to indicate the all-important place of stress. One exception is precisely the optional use of ι, ει, and even υ and oι to signify palatalization of the preceding consonant. Thus μπάνιο, pronounced just as the italian word _bagno _it comes from, does not rhyme with σπάνιο, pronounced 'spá-ni-o' in three syllables. Likewise, δόλιος, if pronounced 'δό-li-os' in three syllables, means 'malicious', but if pronounced 'δό-ʎos' in two syllables means 'poor, wretched' and expresses pity. Finally, έννοια, pronounced é-ni-a, means 'notion', but if pronounced éña, it means 'care, worry'. So also with λόγια ([loja], two syllables, meaning 'words, sayings' and [lojia], three syllables, meaning 'learned' (fem.), but also used of the supposed collection of Jesus Christ's _Dicta _that may have circulated in the early Church before the Gospels were written.)


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## διαφορετικός

Αγγελος said:


> the optional use of ι, ει, and even υ and oι to signify palatalization of the preceding consonant


Did you mean that ι, ει, υ, and οι (but not η) should be palatalized if they appear immediately after a consonant in some cases, but we cannot recognize these cases by the spelling?


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## Αγγελος

διαφορετικός said:


> Did you mean that ι, ει, υ, and οι (but not η) should be palatalized if they appear immediately after a consonant in some cases, but we cannot recognize these cases by the spelling?


Ι mean that the vowel _letters_  ι, ει, υ, and οι (though normally not η) are often not pronounced at all when appearing immediately after palatalizable consonants, viz. κ/γκ/γγ/χ/γ/λ/ν and before another vowel, but merely serve to indicate that the preceding consonant is palatalized. My example of μπάνιο vs. σπάνιο is, I think, a good case in point. In the same position but after non-palatalizable consonants, the vowel _letters_ in question are pronounced as palatal γ, χ, or (after m) ñ. But of course, they can also be full vowels. Former PM Simitis was criticised for pronouncing ποιότητα [pçotita], as if it began with the word ποιο, the standard pronunciation being pi-o-ti-ta, in four syllables.


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## διαφορετικός

Thanks, Άγγελε.


Αγγελος said:


> My example of μπάνιο vs. σπάνιο is, I think, a good case in point.





Αγγελος said:


> was criticised for pronouncing ποιότητα [pçotita], as if it began with the word ποιο


These examples are very understandable. But I have just learned that this subject it more complicated than I thought (at least in theory) and would deserve a discussion thread of its own.


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