# Die Wahrheit ist den Menschen zumutbar



## quesuerte

The subtitles of the Der Baader Meinhof Komplex DVD say "Die Wahrheit ist den Menschenzumutbar", Google comes up with "Die Wahrheit ist dem Menschen zumutbar."

My question is - are they both correct and what do they mean?

Thank you!


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## Demiurg

It means something like

_Man must put up with the truth._

_The truth is bearable to man._ 

"dem Menschen" (to man) is singular , "den Menschen" (to men/humans) is plural.


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## SteveUK

Demiurg said:


> _The truth is bearable to man._



 "The truth is man's burden".
or:
"Truth is the Burden of Man". (capitals for dramatic effect )


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## Demiurg

SteveUK said:


> The truth is man's burden



There's still something missing. The word "zumutbar" has the meaning "it's alright/acceptable":

_It's alright to burden man with the truth._
_It's acceptable to confront man with the truth._

I hope you get the idea.


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## SteveUK

Demiurg said:


> I hope you get the idea.



Thank you, Demiurg, that does make it clearer.

If I said:
"It is reasonable to expect people to face the truth"
- would that convey the right message?


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## Demiurg

SteveUK said:


> If I said:
> "It is reasonable to expect people to face the truth"
> - would that convey the right message?


Yes, that captures the meaning much better. 

But regarding the form, the German statement is primarily about truth, not about people:

_Die Wahrheit ... ist zumutbar._

"Wahrheit" is the subject of the sentence.  "_The truth is bearable to man_" was a try in that direction. Maybe a passive construction is needed in English to make it perfect.


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## SteveUK

"Man can bear the truth" might be an option, but doesn't really capture the meaning properly. I can't think of a better way to put it concisely though. 

In "The truth is bearable to man", 'to' sounds slightly wrong.
This should be "The truth is bearable _for_ man".


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## berndf

Demiurg said:


> But regarding the form, the German statement is primarily about truth, not about people


But that's fine. English does not share German's fondness of passives and there logical equivalents (_is zumutbar_ is equivalents to _kann zugemutet werden_). I wouldn't try to find a more literal translation.


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## englishman

SteveUK said:


> "Man can bear the truth" might be an option, but doesn't really capture the meaning properly. I can't think of a better way to put it concisely though.
> 
> In "The truth is bearable to man", 'to' sounds slightly wrong.
> This should be "The truth is bearable _for_ man".



How about "Mankind can handle the truth" ? 
Or maybe even "People can face the truth" ?


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## berndf

englishman said:


> How about "Mankind can handle the truth" ?
> Or maybe even "People can face the truth" ?


I still like Steve's _It is reasonable to expect people to face the truth_ best because it captures the meaning of _zumuten_ that somebody is _expecting_ you to cope with something or who _puts you in a position_ where you have to cope. Compared to this connotation, the difference between active and passive phrasing is quite marginal.


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## englishman

berndf said:


> I still like Steve's _It is reasonable to expect people to face the truth_ best because it captures the meaning of _zumuten_ that somebody is _expecting_ you to cope with something or who _puts you in a position_ where you have to cope. Compared to this connotation, the difference between active and passive phrasing is quite marginal.



I can't pretend that the precise nuance of this phrase is clear to me, but given that the original German comes from a DVD subtitle, I guess that any English translation should be suitable for a similar use. Given that, I feel that the sentence above is too formal, even if it's a more accurate translation.


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## berndf

englishman said:


> I can't pretend that the precise nuance of this phrase is clear to me, but given that the original German comes from a DVD subtitle, I guess that any English translation should be suitable for a similar use. Given that, I feel that the sentence above is too formal, even if it's a more accurate translation.


What about _people can be expected to face the truth_?


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## englishman

berndf said:


> What about _people can be expected to face the truth_?



That contains an unpleasant passive form. Maybe: "We think that people can handle the truth" ?

I'm not sure if the German implies that people _should _face the truth (i.e. they have a moral obligation to do so) or if it imples that people are capable of facing the truth; the wording may be different in each of these cases.

And I feel that suggestions of the form "mankind can bear the truth" sound rather too much like quotations from a philosophy text to be acceptable on a DVD cover.


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## dec-sev

The truth is not that unbearable


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## berndf

englishman said:


> That contains an unpleasant passive form. Maybe: "We think that people can handle the truth" ?


Ok then maybe _we_ _can expected people to face the truth._

"We think that people can handle the truth" again does not capture the important bit. To make it very clear (maybe a tiny, wee bit exaggerated to make the point): "We" aren't passively *thinking* about whether they can face the truth. "We" actively *put* them in a situation where they have to face to truth. That is what _zumuten_ means: one person *puts* another person into a situation where he has to endure something. He actively causes the other person to be in an awkward situation, he is not just watching it.


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## dec-sev

berndf said:


> Ok then maybe _we_ _can expected people to face the truth._
> 
> "We think that people can handle the truth" again does not capture the important bit.


Do you imply that "we expect" puts a person into a situation where he has to endure something while "we think" implies "passive thinking"?


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## berndf

dec-sev said:


> Do you imply that "we expect" puts a person into a situation where he has to endure something while "we think" implies "passive thinking"?


It gets us at least a bit closer to that meaning. There is an implicit assumption: _As we expect them to be able to cope, we won't do anything to prevent it. _I guess _zumuten_ is used in this indirect meaning here.


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## dec-sev

Well, it's difficult to discuss a phrase without anyh context, but it sounds somewhat elevated to me. I may be wrong, just my perception.
Another example:
Kontext: Bad guys want to destroy the world.
Das ist dem Bruce Willis zumutbar, die Welt zu retten.
1. Bruce Willis can save the world.
2. We can expect  Bruce Willis to save the world.
Welche Variante passt in dieser Situation besser?


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## SteveUK

dec-sev said:


> Kontext: Bad guys want to destroy the world.
> Das ist dem Bruce Willis zumutbar, die Welt zu retten.
> 1. Bruce Willis can save the world.
> 2. We can expect  Bruce Willis to save the world.
> Welche Variante passt in dieser Situation besser?



I think if we change 1. to:
"*Only* Bruce Willis can save the world"
-it adds the necessary expectation, possibly even an obligation. Without 'only', it is just a statement of his capabilities.


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## SteveUK

"It is reasonable to expect people to face the truth"



englishman said:


> I can't pretend that the precise nuance of this phrase is clear to me, but given that the original German comes from a DVD subtitle, I guess that any English translation should be suitable for a similar use. Given that, I feel that the sentence above is too formal, even if it's a more accurate translation.



My German is still quite poor, so this was more of an attempt to clarify the meaning (for my own benefit) than a suitable translation. I quite agree that it is too formal (and long-winded), and lacks the 'impact' of the original.

 I think your own "Mankind can handle the truth" may be fairly close, as it could imply expectation.

 An example of 'handle' in this sense:
 Mechanic: "This job is complicated, I don't think I can finish it in time".
 Customer: "You can handle it, I'll be back tomorrow to collect the car".

 The mechanic is unsure, but the customer expects him to get on with the job.


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## berndf

dec-sev said:


> Well, it's difficult to discuss a phrase without anyh context...


It isn't without context. It is the title of a famous speech by Ingeborg Bachmann. It is about the right and also the duty of authors and journalists to speak the truth even if it is troublesome because *it can be expected of people to be able to cope with the truth* even if it causes hardship to them or if they would prefer to ignore the truth.


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## dec-sev

berndf said:


> It isn't without context. It is the title of a famous speech by Ingeborg Bachmann. It is about the right and also the duty of authors and journalists to speak the truth even if it is troublesome because *it can be expected of people to be able to cope with the truth* even if it causes hardship to them or if they would prefer to ignore the truth.


If it's a tite of a speach your version is - as has already been mentioned -  "too formal (and long-winded), and lacks the 'impact' of the original", I'm afraid. The question is what is more important translating this particular phrase: a precise but too wordy variant or something that would render the 'impact'. If it's impossible to come up with someting in between I would chose "People _can_ face the truth".


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## Demiurg

I didn't know it's from Bachmann.   But with that knowledge we can search the web for translations. 

_Man can face the truth._
_Mankind can stand the truth._
_People can handle the truth._
_People must not be spared the truth._
_Man is someone from whom you can expect the truth._ 

I find "must not be spared" interesting.  It's the negation of the opposite but it sounds right.


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## berndf

dec-sev said:


> If it's a tite of a speach your version is - as has already been mentioned - "too formal (and long-winded), and lacks the 'impact' of the original", I'm afraid. The question is what is more important translating this particular phrase: a precise but too wordy variant or something that would render the 'impact'. If it's impossible to come up with someting in between I would chose "People _can_ face the truth".


The title is on purpose very "intellectual". The RAF originated in an environment an over-intellectualized leftist scene in the Germany of the late 60s. If the English translation is "too formal" this is not a bad thing.

I revert to by original suggestion: _people can be expected to face the truth. @_Steve: What is your problem with passive voice? You called it "unpleasant".


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## SteveUK

One last suggestion from me, as a compromise between brevity and accuracy:

"Mankind must accept the truth".


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## berndf

SteveUK said:


> One last suggestion from me, as a compromise between brevity and accuracy:
> 
> "Mankind must accept the truth".


I like that.


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