# ss vs. s-zet



## aksa

Hi, I was looking for a thread about this issue of when to use ss and when to use s-zet, but couldn't find one.

I was taught to write "bißchen" with s-zet, but I find my spellchecker changing it to "bisschen". When I look on the internet, I see both. Have things changed since I first learned to write German (15 years ago)? What are the rules?

Thanks anyone who can tell me.


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## jester.

The current rules state that -ss- is to be written after short vowels --> Kuss, Schuss, Schluss, Fluss, Wasser, nass, etc.

-ß- is to be written after long vowels --> Fuß, Gruß, saß, aß, maß, etc.


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## Kajjo

Hi Aksa,
yes, the rules have actually changed -- a theme of high controversy in Germany. j3st3r has stated the new rule. In private writing most people will not notice or care if you continue to use the old style (as many Germans do). In school or in official documents, you should follow the new rules.
Kajjo


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## jester.

Additionally you should know that it is, in my opinion, not _so_ difficult to learn and apply the new rule because it is used without exceptions and it is quite logical after all

Before the new rule, there were many exceptions, I think...


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## FloVi

Nicht zu vergessen, dass auch nach Diphthongs (ai, ei, au...) kein "ss" folgt. In den nächst ein bis zwei Monaten werden wir übrigens wohl häufig eine Ausnahme zu lesen bekommen. Die FIFA hat schließlich die deutschen Medien dazu verdonnert "Fussball" zu schreiben.


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## Sepia

Besides:

The Swiss have dropped the ß totally.


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## Kajjo

FloVi said:
			
		

> Nicht zu vergessen, dass auch nach Diphthongs (ai, ei, au...) kein "ss" folgt. In den nächst ein bis zwei Monaten werden wir übrigens wohl häufig eine Ausnahme zu lesen bekommen. Die FIFA hat schließlich die deutschen Medien dazu verdonnert "Fussball" zu schreiben.



Ich kann das immer noch nicht so recht glauben -- und gezwungen werden kann dazu sicherlich niemand. Wir werden sehen, welche Journale sich daran halten werden und welche nicht. Letzere können sicher unter den Gebildeten ganz erheblich Sympathiepunkte gewinnen!

Kajjo


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## jester.

Sepia said:
			
		

> Besides:
> 
> The Swiss have dropped the ß totally.



I doubt that foreigners would learn Swiss German.


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## Jana337

aksa said:
			
		

> Hi, I was looking for a thread about this issue of when to use ss and when to use s-zet, but couldn't find one.


Hi and welcome! 

This one will help you (in particular the links to other, older threads). 

Jana


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## Sepia

j3st3r said:
			
		

> I doubt that foreigners would learn Swiss German.



Who wants to learn Swiss German?

My point is, sometimes you read things and do not know why it is written the way it is. That is what this thread started with.


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## Whodunit

j3st3r said:
			
		

> The current rules state that -ss- is to be written after short vowels --> Kuss, Schuss, Schluss, Fluss, Wasser, nass, etc.
> 
> -ß- is to be written after long vowels --> Fuß, Gruß, saß, aß, maß, etc.


 
I'd like to point out that the old rules for the spelling of "ß" do not apply anymore (if you want to stick to the new ones, of course ):

musste --> old: mußte
Hass --> old: Haß
duss(e)lig --> old: dußlig, but dusselig!
ihr wisst --> old: ihr wißt

The old spelling stated that you have to use an "ß" if it is at the end of a syllable, or if it stands before a "t" (which was, by the way, really nonsense ).


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## Sepia

Not quite true, that they do not apply - but for clear understanding one should stick to the old, or to the new rules, and not mix them up. Lots of people still write according to the old rules - that is also correct German. So if one is typesetting or proofreading other people's texts it is important to know both. 

The funny thing about the ß, by the way, is that it is originally a typographical thing - a ligament of to letters of which the first one is the "long s". In some typefaces there was a long and short "s". Why it is an s-z is still a mystery to me, since the correct spelling in upper case is SS

Exapmple: Fußball - FUSSBALL

(... no I will not change my language because some sports association thinks we should support their CI)


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## Whodunit

Sepia said:
			
		

> Not quite true, that they do not apply - but for clear understanding one should stick to the old, or to the new rules, and not mix them up. Lots of people still write according to the old rules - that is also correct German. So if one is typesetting or proofreading other people's texts it is important to know both.


 
It is not right that the old spelling is correct German in all manners. If you apply to a company who strictly uses the new rules, your letter of application will not be paid attention to, I think. However, most companies are as comfortable as many inhabitants of Germany: They accept both spellings, but they prefer one over the other, of course.



> The funny thing about the ß, by the way, is that it is originally a typographical thing - a ligament of to letters of which the first one is the "long s". In some typefaces there was a long and short "s". Why it is an s-z is still a mystery to me, since the correct spelling in upper case is SS
> 
> Exapmple: Fußball - FUSSBALL


 
That's not entirely true. The old alternative to spell an ß in upper-case letters was indeed - believe it or not  - SZ: FUSZBALL, SCHLOSZSTRASZE etc. You can continue reading here.


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## Henryk

But you must consider that you shouldn't automatically use an "Eszett" after a diphtong. It can also happen that you just have to write a "s". Examples are "fies", "Zeus" and "Kies". They are pronounced exactly the same way words such as "Spieß" are.

The same with simple vowels.
Example: "(Ich) las" - it is pronounced with a long "a". But that is due to the conjugation, the infinitive is "lesen". Hence it remains a "s".


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## Kajjo

Sepia said:
			
		

> The funny thing about the ß, by the way, is that it is originally a typographical thing - a ligament of to letters of which the first one is the "long s". In some typefaces there was a long and short "s". Why it is an s-z is still a mystery to me, since the correct spelling in upper case is SS



I am not sure about the history of the name s-zet, but I always thought it had to do with how an s and z look in the old-style German handwriting (some older people even today write the z in the old style).

Kajjo


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## Whodunit

Kajjo said:
			
		

> I am not sure about the history of the name s-zet, but I always thought it had to do with how an s and z look in the old-style German handwriting (some older people even today write the z in the old style).
> 
> Kajjo


 
Right. The old "long s" (*ſ*) once got connected to the old z (*ʒ*), so it became ß. Mehr hier.


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## jebyler

Sepia said:
			
		

> Who wants to learn Swiss German?



Ich find's niedlich.  Besonders wenn sie sprechen...  Ich schaue die Schweizer nachrichten jeden tag an, um mein Deutsch noch sauber zu halten  .


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## Henryk

jebyler said:
			
		

> Ich find's niedlich. Besondes wenn sie spechen... Ich schaue die schweizer Nachrichten jeden tag an, um mein Deutsch noch sauber zu halten  .


Besonders dieses "ch", das sie immer wie in "ach" aussprechen.


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## gaer

aksa said:
			
		

> Hi, I was looking for a thread about this issue of when to use ss and when to use s-zet, but couldn't find one.
> 
> I was taught to write "bißchen" with s-zet, but I find my spellchecker changing it to "bisschen". When I look on the internet, I see both. Have things changed since I first learned to write German (15 years ago)? What are the rules?
> 
> Thanks anyone who can tell me.


I think you will find that your spellchecker will be a guide as to what words have changed. For instance, you will find that it will want to change "daß" to "dass" and "muß" to "muss". But if you type "Karl der "Grosse", it will want to correct to "Große". (The spelling here has not changed, so "grosse" would be either a misspelling or Swiss German, which uses only "ss".

For this reason you can "learn as you go". If you find that the spellchecker wants to change something to a new spelling that is not the same as what was in print before 1990, you will almost surely know that it is a word that has been changed.

Gaer


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## Kajjo

gaer said:
			
		

> I think you will find that your spellchecker will be a guide.



Fortunately, Word still comes with a spellchecker adhering to the established rules (as alternative to the "new rules").

Kajjo


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## gaer

Kajjo said:
			
		

> Fortunately, Word still comes with a spellchecker adhering to the established rules (as alternative to the "new rules").
> 
> Kajjo


I know, which is very cool. The bad part:

You need some kind of extra "add-on" to get a spellchecker for German. It really ticks me off. I can spellcheck Spanish or French. Those dictionaries come with the program.

You see how it is? Then if you add to this the fact that German might as well not exist where I live, you can see why I depend on the Net and books. 

Gaer


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## Kajjo

gaer said:
			
		

> I know, which is very cool. The bad part:
> 
> You need some kind of extra "add-on" to get a spellchecker for German. It really ticks me off. I can spellcheck Spanish or French. Those dictionaries come with the program.
> 
> You see how it is? Then if you add to this the fact that German might as well not exist where I live, you can see why I depend on the Net and books.
> 
> Gaer



Dear Gaer,
I hope that you have got hold of a German spellchecker, though. Once you have one, it should be compatible with most Office versions. I think you can download such files from the official Microsoft website. Surprisingly enough, the European version contains a huge variety of languages, i.e. there is no German version which only supports English and German, but all European languages are included.

Kajjo


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## aksa

thanks everyone for the replies and helpful suggestion! I'm glad I got hold of these new rules. I'm just wondering now if I'll be able to accurately know which vowels are short and long. Is there a rule for that too? I sort of have a feeling for it, but if you're just starting to learn, I imagine it can be quite confusing.


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## Kajjo

aksa said:
			
		

> thanks everyone for the replies and helpful suggestion! I'm glad I got hold of these new rules. I'm just wondering now if I'll be able to accurately know which vowels are short and long. Is there a rule for that too? I sort of have a feeling for it, but if you're just starting to learn, I imagine it can be quite confusing.


You're welcome!

Well, generally you have to learn the vocabulary along with its pronunciation. I am afraid there is no easy way to deduce the vowel sound easily.

However, there are some guidelines that at least cover the easy cases:
1) All diphthongs are long (au, eu, ei, ...)
2) Double vocals are long (See, Boot, ...)
3) -h makes long (Naht, wohl, ...)

Single vowels can be long or short, you will have to learn them.

Kajjo


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## Whodunit

aksa said:
			
		

> thanks everyone for the replies and helpful suggestion! I'm glad I got hold of these new rules. I'm just wondering now if I'll be able to accurately know which vowels are short and long. Is there a rule for that too? I sort of have a feeling for it, but if you're just starting to learn, I imagine it can be quite confusing.


 
No, there's no rule for when you have to use short or long vowels. You just need the feeling for it. By the way, words like "Bus" and "Stuss" are quite confusing, because it could as well be "Buss" and "Stus".


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## gaer

Kajjo said:
			
		

> Single vocals can be long or short, you will have to learn them.


This is one advantage of the new rules. If you can remember how such a word is spelled, you have a good idea how it should be pronounced. 

Is it possible you are thinking of "Vocal" when using the word "vocal"? Normally we use the word "vowel", as in "long and short vowels".

Regarding spellcheckers: I tried to download a German spellchecker for Word, but when I attempted to install it, I got one of those lovely messages that basically says, "Send us more money if you want this to work.". 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> This is one advantage of the new rules. If you can remember how such a word is spelled, you have a good idea how it should be pronounced.


 
Just a quick question, Gaer: How would you read "Mus" and "Bus" then? 



> Is it possible you are thinking of "Vocal" when using the word "vocal"? Normally we use the word "vowel", as in "long and short vowels".


 
Yes, it is possible. It's a very common mistake to use "vocal" for "Vo*k*al". But you're right that it should be "vowel".


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Just a quick question, Gaer: How would you read "Mus" and "Bus" then?


I have no idea, since "Mus" is a word I have never heard, and my idea of "Bus" is probably too much influenced by the English pronunciation.

But I would expect "Mus" to be more like "muss" than like "Fluß". And to me "muss" and "Fluß" do not rhyme at all. Now, since I have probably not spoken a word of German in several years, who knows if I am right. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I have no idea, since "Mus" is a word I have never heard, and my idea of "Bus" is probably too much influenced by the English pronunciation.
> 
> But I would expect "Mus" to be more like "muss" than like "Fluß". And to me "muss" and "Fluß" do not rhyme at all. Now, since I have probably not spoken a word of German in several years, who knows if I am right.
> 
> Gaer


 
Mus sounds like Fuß.
Bus sounds like muss.

Thus, you can see that "s" does not indicate whether ot not the vowel vefore it is long, or if it a sharp or soft "s".


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Mus sounds like Fuß.
> Bus sounds like muss.
> 
> Thus, you can see that "s" does not indicate whether ot not the vowel vefore it is long, or if it a sharp or soft "s".


I had no idea, because I could not think of another simple word that ends in a single "s" after "u".

Howeer, "Bus" is pronounced much the same as it is in English, isn't it? Are there other words in German that rhyme with "Mus"?

Gaer


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## Lykurg

> Are there other words in German that rhyme with "Mus"?


 Gruß, 
Ruß, 
diffus, 
abstrus, 
Jus (Latin: Right; not French sauce^^), 
Hus (lower German for 'Haus'; but not the Bohemian Protestant Jan Hus, whose u should be short)


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## selters

Kajjo said:
			
		

> I am not sure about the history of the name s-zet, but I always thought it had to do with how an s and z look in the old-style German handwriting (some older people even today write the z in the old style).
> 
> Kajjo


 
Ja, das stimmt. Während eines Übersetzungsstundes vor ein paar Monaten fragte ich meinen Vorleser warum er ß s-zet nannte. Er sagte, das ß sei eine Ligatur von s und z in der alten Frakturschrift. Es gibt Bilder der Entwicklung dieser zwei Buchstaben auf Wikipedia.


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## gaer

Lykurg said:
			
		

> Gruß,
> Ruß,
> diffus,
> abstrus,
> Jus (Latin: Right; not French sauce^^),
> Hus (lower German for 'Haus'; but not the Bohemian Protestant Jan Hus, whose u should be short)


Diffus, abstrus… I never thought of them. In Enlighs they are pronounced:

diffyuß
abstruß

In other words, the final "u" sound is "long"? 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Howeer, "Bus" is pronounced much the same as it is in English, isn't it?


 
No, "Bus" sounds different in English and in German: 
EN: [bʌs]
DE: [bʊs]


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## Brazilian dude

The boxes look the same to me.  

Brazilian dude


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## Whodunit

Brazilian dude said:
			
		

> The boxes look the same to me.
> 
> Brazilian dude


 
You should install more scripts on your computer. 

the "u" in English "bus" is pronounce like the one in "cut", but the "u" in German "Bus" sounds like the "oo" in "good".


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> No, "Bus" sounds different in English and in German:
> EN: [bʌs]
> DE: [bʊs]


You are right, and I knew that. Because I think "Bus" rhymes with "muss", not at all like "must" or "bus". I don't know what I was thinking. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> You should install more scripts on your computer.
> 
> the "u" in English "bus" is pronounce like the one in "cut", but the "u" in German "Bus" sounds like the "oo" in "good".


According to my system, you are using Microsoft Sans Serif. Is that correct?

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> According to my system, you are using Microsoft Sans Serif. Is that correct?
> 
> Gaer


 
Yes, I am. But Brazilian Dude might not be able to read the characters, if he has not installed Microsoft Sans Serif on his computer.

PS: We're about to drift off-topic.


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Yes, I am. But Brazilian Dude might not be able to read the characters, if he has not installed Microsoft Sans Serif on his computer.
> 
> PS: We're about to drift off-topic.


I agree. Back to the topic. 

Gaer


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