# Romance "dormir" -> Hungarian "durmol"



## franknagy

I don't know whether the verb *durmol* came from Italian or Spanish to Hungarian.
The Hungarian language replaced the -ir(e) of Romance verbs with the internal -l- suffix. 
The question is that this Romance verb has -o- an d-o- stems in differrent persons and tenses. _Why the -u- was catched?

Another remark: The native verb meaning to sleep is alive. This *durmol* means that somebody is still sleeping while others have already got up and they are working. _


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## Sardokan1.0

In certain areas of Corsica, where they speak a Romance language related to Italian and in origin with Sardinian, the verb is pronounced _*Durmí*_, while in other areas of the same island is pronounced *Dórme *(the suffixes of infinitives "are, ere, ire" were lost during the evolution of the language)

There are many expamples of O turned to U in Sardinian and also in Corsican

*Latin - Sardinian*

Tondere - Túndere (to shave)
Torrere - Turrare (to roast)
Mora - Mura (blackberry)
Contactus - Cuntattu (contact)
Colligare - Culligare (to connect)

etc.etc. there are hundreds of these examples

A similar thing but reversed happened in Italian where original U turned to O

*Latin - Italian - Sardinian*

Putare - Potare - Pudare (to trim)
Luctare - Lottare - Luttare (to fight)
Currere - Correre - Currere (to run)
Fundere - Fondere - Fundere (to smelt)
Turrem - Torre - Turre (tower)


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## franknagy

_Durmol _in Hungarian is in 1st person singular, indefinite conjugation. That is the "dictionary form" because it has ∅ ending with a few exceptions.
The Hungarian infinitive is_ durmo_lni.

Correction: 3rd person singular.


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## francisgranada

franknagy said:


> _The native verb meaning to sleep is alive. This _*durmol*_ means that somebody is still sleeping while others have already got up and they are working. _


I'd like to add that the native verb _aludni _is practically the only verb meaning _to sleep_, _durmolni _is/was used very rarely and only in special contexts. 





> I don't know whether the verb *durmol* came from Italian or Spanish to Hungarian.


The Spanish as direct source is improbable, because of the absence of relevant historical contacts between the Hungarian and Spanish. So, if the verb _durmol _really had to be of Romance origin, I'd prefer the Romanian or some northern Italian dialect as possible source (in spite of the vowel _-u-_).

However, according to the etymological dictionaries (in spite of the similarity with the Romance verbs for _to sleep_) this verb is of onomatopoeic origin having the same root as the verbs _durrog _and _duruzsol_. The actual meaning is rather transferred (or secondary),  originally it refers to _snoring _and not to the sleeping itself.


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## franknagy

francisgranada said:


> I'. The Spanish as direct source is improbable, because of the absence of relevant historical contacts between the Hungarian and Spanish.


Francis, the direct Spanish source of the verb *durmol* is not so improbable as you think. When Ferdinand I Hapsburg and his descendant were the kings of 1/3 Hungary he was unable to withstand John Szapolyai and the Soliman without the Spanish soldiers sent and paid by uncle Charles, and Philip II kings of Spain.


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## danielstan

And how many Spanish words has imported Hungarian during the reigns of those Spaniards? Did they reign many years? Did they bring millions of Spanish soldiers in Hungary or thousands?

Now, seriously, we cannot solve this kind of problems if we look at the linguistic map of today's Europe and guess what could be the source for 1 word.
We may think at the linguistic map of Europe around 900 AD and we find a Romance speaking population all over Balkans, north of Jireček line, - this population being referred as Vlachs at that time.
By the way, Pannonia was a Roman province between 1st century - 5th century AD and a Romanised population lived there and most probably survived the Slavic invasion, but was assimilated by Hungarians in the end.

In modern Romanian the verb 'a dormi' (at infinitive) (< Latin dormire) means 'to sleep'.
In the Balkans there is a mountain named Durmitor in Monte Negro (Durmitor - Wikipedia) and linguists agree his name is of Vlach origin. 
This toponim shows that the evolution 'dormire' > 'durmire' did happen in some areas of Balkans.

I am not aware of what Hungarian linguists believe on this matters, but I would not search in Italian or Spanish for this particular word.


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## Perseas

danielstan said:


> And how many Spanish words has imported Hungarian during the reigns of those Spaniards? Did they reign many years? Did they bring millions of Spanish soldiers in Hungary or thousands?
> 
> Now, seriously, we cannot solve this kind of problems if we look at the linguistic map of today's Europe and guess what could be the source for 1 word.
> We may think at the linguistic map of Europe around 900 AD and we find a Romance speaking population all over Balkans, north of Jireček line, - this population being referred as Vlachs at that time.
> By the way, Pannonia was a Roman province between 1st century - 5th century AD and a Romanised population lived there and most probably survived the Slavic invasion, but was assimilated by Hungarians in the end.


Then more words from that period should have survived in Hungarian except "durmol". Have they?


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## francisgranada

danielstan said:


> I am not aware of what Hungarian linguists believe on this matters ...


See my post #4, namely "_... according to the etymological dictionaries ... this verb is of onomatopoeic origin having the same root as the verbs durrog and duruzsol. The actual meaning is rather transferred (or secondary), originally it refers to snoring and not to the sleeping itself._"  I could mention other verbs of onomatopoeic origin as well, with the same or phonetically similar root, e.g. _durrant, dorombol, dörög, dörömböl, dörmög ... _


> ... but I would not search in Italian or Spanish for this particular word.


I have mentioned the Northern Italian dialects only as a _hypothetical consideration _(answering to FrankNagy)_, _because during the process of christianization of Hungary by priest from Norther Italy, some words (mostly religious terms of Latin origin, reflecting the Norther Italian pronuciation) entered in Hungarian some 1000 and more years ago. Many of them are now obsolete or not used at all. 





Perseas said:


> Then more words from that period should have survived in Hungarian except "durmol". Have they?


No. BTW the verb "durmol" is attested the first time in any written text as late as in *1870 *...

Once more: the word "durmol" absolutely does not substitute the verb _aludni _(to sleep) and it is used (very rarely) only in marginal (including _humorous_) contexts.


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## fdb

Maybe it is from a Slavic word, like Church Slavonic drĕmati, which is cognate with (not derived from) Latin dormio.


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## ilocas2

It could be from Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Czech and Slovak word *durman* (= jimsonweed)


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## francisgranada

fdb said:


> Maybe it is from a Slavic word, like Church Slavonic drĕmati, which is cognate with (not derived from) Latin dormio.


If we _a priori _refute the onomatopoeic origin given by the etymology dictionaries, then the Slavic provenience could be even probable - if not the following problem:

1. A Slavic loanword (e.g. from the Slovak _driemať_)  in the 19th century would give rather *_dremál_ (not _durmol_).
3. A Slavic medieval (or "old") loan would result in *_deremel _(or something like this), as consonant clusters were not possible at the beginning of a word in Hungarian.

In any case, there are serious difficulties to explain the root _durm_- on the basis of the Slavic _drĕm_-.


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## ilocas2

It could be also from Czech/Slovak verb *drmolit/drmoliť* (= jabber, gabble, chatter)


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## ilocas2

It's also possible that it's composition of dur and moll (major scale and minor scale in English).


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## ilocas2

It's also worth to consider that it comes from the name of village Drmoul (German _Dürrmaul_) in Western Bohemia.


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## fjs

In Abruzzo (Italy) the latin verb has become *durmì *or in certain villages *durmujë*


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