# homework, dishonest students, genuine attempts



## Saoul

Faccio riferimento a un thread italiano per attirare l'attenzione dei moderatori su una cosa che ultimamente sta succedendo sempre più spesso.

Un forero, attenendosi alle regole del forum, e con le migliori intenzioni, ha chiesto alla forera che aveva posto la domanda di provare a fare un tentativo di traduzione. 



> xxx,
> Care to have a go yourself at translating the sentences? We'll gladly help you iron out any errors.


Dopo pochi minuti altri foreri, postano le risposte, inficiando intanto lo sforzo di yyy al rispetto delle regole, e vanificando il tentativo di fare in modo che questo forum continui ad essere uno strumento con una valenza didattica. 



> - Ti amo e ad ogni istante penso continuamente a te.
> - Non voglio perderti perchè sei la mia vita e ti desidero/ho bisogno di te.
> - Non posso vivere senza te.





> - I love you and I am always thinking about you, every second.
> - I don't want to lose you because you are my life and I need you.
> - I cannot live without you.
> 
> 
> Ti amo e penso sempre a te, ogni istante. (Ti amo e non passa istante senza che pensi a te)
> Non ti voglio perdere perchè sei la mia vita ed ho bisogno di te.
> Non posso vivere senza te.


A parte la mancanza di rispetto per yyy, in questo caso, e per coloro che di solito cercano di rispettare una delle regole del forum, questo thread presentava l'ulteriore difetto di avere tre domande, anzichè l'unica domanda consentita per ogni thread. 
Dimentichi delle regole, e troppo zelanti nel voler dire la propria, alcuni foreri talvolta, anche se bazzicano il forum da un po' sono i primi a contravvenire alle regole che dovrebbero rendere questo forum, quello che credo tutti vorremmo che fosse, vale a dire un valido strumento di apprendimento e di confronto. Non la gara a chi lo dice prima. (Momento ludico: in caso nessuno se ne fosse accorto, non ci sono ricchi premi, cotillon, bottiglie di spumante, Pamela Anderson, Brad Pitt o altro in premio).

Vorrei invitare tutti al rispetto delle regole di cui sopra, ed invitarvi anche a pensare che se un amico forero chiede giustamente a chi ha postato di fare uno sforzo, dargli torto in questa maniera, non mi pare carino. (Oltre che, si lo ripeto perchè mi piace essere ridondante CONTRAVVENIRE ALLE REGOLE).

Moderatori, inizio questo thread solo ed unicamente perchè so che non potete leggere tutto quello che viene scritto, e perchè so che siete i primi ad intervenire in modo molto incisivo in questi casi, per cui mi rendo conto che anche voi vedete la necessità che questa cosa venga "assimilata" da tutti.

Scusate la spatafiata (è dialetto ragazzi non nativi, non imparate questa frase), ma come si dice quando ce vo, ce vo (è dialetto anche questo )


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## Necsus

Mi dispiace, Saoul, avevo scritto una risposta al thread di cui sopra, ma vedo ora che non l'ho spedita. Facevo notare più o meno quello che tu hai così brillantemente esposto (anche se in modo leggermente più conciso, non avendo io le tue capacità dialettiche) ai protagonisti. Ora ovviamente è superato.
Vabbè, tutto ciò per dire che condivido appieno.


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## emma1968

Se posso esprimere il mio modesto  parere, devo proprio dire che Saoul ha fatto benissimo a sollevare il problema, non tanto per una questione di rispetto delle regole, ma piuttosto  per una questione di rispetto reciproco.
Sta al buon senso di ognuno  cercare di non  ignorare  i post  precedenti dando  una linea giusta e logica al thread.


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## maxiogee

I'm not sure of the details here, but I understand the problem.
It happens also in the English Only forum.
Someone asks which is the correct form A, B, C or D - and a forero (sometimes pointing to the "No Homework" rule) asks them to say which _they_ think is right, and why — and then a 'helpful' person comes in and answers the question.

I'd be interested to see any moderator who responds to the Italian questions also answer in English, please.


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## Moogey

Hi maxiogee,

No, not exactly, what they're discussing here is that in the Italian-English forum (I don't know if it's a rule in other forums) someone will ask "How do you say XXX" without trying to translate it first themselves. So someone will say "Please try to translate it yourself, first" and then other people will start translating it before the original poster tries to translate it. I only read part of the posts though.

Saoul: Sarebbe stato più facile per gli altri a capire se abbia scritto in inglese 

-M


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## Necsus

You're right, Moogey. But I think that the gist of the speech is not so different in the situation presented by Maxiogee. Isn't it?


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## Saoul

Moogey, maxiogee sorry I did not before. Here you are. I apologize for all the English mistakes. 

With reference to this thread, I would like to draw Moderator’s attention to something that in the last period accurred at a more frequent rate. 

yyy, complying with the forum rules, and with good intents, asked xxx to give her sentences a try, and translate them by herself first. 



> xxx,
> Care to have a go yourself at translating the sentences? We'll gladly help you iron out any errors.


 After a few minutes, some foreros posted the correct answers, challenging yyy’s effort towards the rule respect, and nullifying the attempt to make this forum be a didactic tool




> - Ti amo e ad ogni istante penso continuamente a te.
> - Non voglio perderti perchè sei la mia vita e ti desidero/ho bisogno di te.
> - Non posso vivere senza te.






> Ti amo e penso sempre a te, ogni istante. (Ti amo e non passa istante senza che pensi a te)
> Non ti voglio perdere perchè sei la mia vita ed ho bisogno di te.
> Non posso vivere senza te.


Let’s not focus on the lack of respect toward xxx, or toward those who try and comply with the forum rules. This thread had the further issue to incorporate three questions when we are allowed only one question per thread.
Oblivious about the rules, and maybe too zealous in supplying their own suggestions, some experienced foreros sometimes contravene the rules themselves. The same rules that should make this forum, what we all would like it to be, a valid teaching and confrontation tool and not a “I answer first” contest (Funny moment: in case you didn’t notice, there are no prizes, no champagne bottles, no Pamela Andersons, and no Brad Pitts

I would like to ask everybody to comply with rules, and to ask everybody to think that if a fellow forero, correctly asks to the thread starter, to make an effort, making exactly the contrary is not really nice. (Along with contravening to rules)

To moderators: I start this thread only because I know that you cannot read everything we write, and because I know that you always intervene decisively in this cases, so I reckon you see the necessity to have everybody assimilating this concept.

I apologize for this very long thread, but I thought it was necessary.


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## Moogey

Saoul said:
			
		

> Moogey, maxiogee sorry I did not before. Here you are.


Non c'è un problema per _me_, sai che lo capisco  È per gli altri  Hai tradotto l'intero post???  È molto da tradurre!

-M


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## maxiogee

Necsus said:
			
		

> You're right, Moogey. But I think that the gist of the speech is not so different in the situation presented by Maxiogee. Isn't it?



Indeed Necsus.
And Saoul, many thanks for the translation, but it was whichever moderator will eventually answer this thread whom I was asking to respond also in English.
I use a Macintosh, and there is a little application (called a _widget_) which does small-volume translations between English and several other languages. That is how I was able to get the meaning, but not the details, of your problem.


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## Saoul

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Indeed Necsus.
> And Saoul, many thanks for the translation, but it was whichever moderator will eventually answer this thread whom I was asking to respond also in English.
> I use a Macintosh, and there is a little application (called a _widget_) which does small-volume translations between English and several other languages. That is how I was able to get the meaning, but not the details, of your problem.



Don't worry, I got that part, it's just that in the Italian-English forum there are some English speakers that may have some problems with such a vast and large post, and I would like them to contribute, if they feel like doing so.


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## ladybird

Hi Everybody,

I only joined the Italian-English forum recently, although I have been a avid post reader for some time.
I will quite openly say that my educational background was not brilliant so I sometimes take a bit longer than most to pick up on the basics of the Italian language. However, I have worked hard to get to the stage where I am now so I find it very frustrating when I see well respected members of the forum rush to give translations to postings that could be quite easily translated by the use of a dictionary.
I'm sure you know the ones that I mean, " don't forget me" "I miss you so much" that type of thing.
It seems to me that the majority of the posts now are mainly in Italian so I find some of them quite hard to follow but as I am determined to learn, I give it my best shot and usually get there in the end.
I don't think a one-off plea for a love letter translation counts as serious academic learning, so please folks, for the sake of us who want to learn and accomplish something, don't be so quick to translate !
I hope this isn't off-topic, oh well, I'm sure a mod will sort me out if it is! 

Regards, ladybird


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## cuchuflete

Grazie tante Saoul,

The lack of courtesy and commen sense you have pointed to is an ongoing problem in many of the forums.  I don't know if it results from over abundant ego, or just a lack of common sense.  When moderators see this, we attempt to address it,
but often the damage has been done already.  We would really rather spend our time as foreros, or helping new members, but are often forced to be constables, trying to maintain the forums as a place for learning.  

My only suggestion is that you use the report-a-post triangle to let us know when you see such behaviour.  You are also welcome to advise others directly, by PM please, when they abuse the intention of the forum rules.

It's especially difficult at this time of year, when many people, including moderators, try to take some time off.  When we instituted the rules about not doing homework for others, we recognized, and stated in public, that the biggest problem would be those who act exactly as you have described.

The only solution we have is to keep on reminding people, gently if possible, that the community works best when all members agree to a common standard of behaviour.


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## Jana337

I really despise this habit of some fellow-forer@s. I have frequently had to (bitterly!) delete my posts with the remark "no longer relevant" because it is a rather ridiculous to keep a request for some independent work on the part of the thread starter if other people have already given a full reply. What bothers me most, some of them must have read my reply before submitting theirs.    Of course, I am not the only one. Many people here find their teaching effort sabotaged by people who cannot understand that we should work together, not next to each other.

I thought it was time to start doing things the other way round, i.e. to delete offending posts and to insist on genuine attempts by thread starters. That's why I wrote rules of conduct in some of the forums I am in charge of:


> If a thread starter does not* suggest his own solution* (of course, Babelfish German does not count as a genuine attempt) or *ask a specific question*, then please request that he do so before you answer. You should provide learners with assistance that will *help them learn something and improve their work through their own achievements*. Preferably, you should give *very general hints* (for example, "watch out for the word order in subordinate clauses," "review the formation of the passive voice," etc.), *instead of just polishing texts* so that they read as if composed by a native.
> 
> Please *be respectful *and do not give an answer after another forum member has demanded a genuine attempt or a specific question from the thread starter.


As some Italian foreros know, the Italian forum will soon have something very similar, tailored to its specific needs.

The enforcement of these rules is an ongoing pain. As Cuchu said, we often come too late. We depend on our members - they should exert peer pressure and train new-comers.

Jana


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## Saoul

moodywop said:
			
		

> To be fair to xxx, I'd like to point out that he actually posted at exactly the same time as xxx, so he couldn't have read xxx's suggestion before he posted.


Quite right Carlo, crossing happens all the time, we pretty much know.
Common sense, anyway should work like this.

Original poster: translate "I love You" h. 2. p.m
Mr X: Give it a try 2.05 p.m
Mr Zelo: Ti amo 2.06 p.m.

I am pretty sure that if you were in Mr Zelo's shoes you would delete your message immediatly, because you reckon Mr X's right. I'm quite sure, you wouldn't post a "Sorry we cross" edit message half an hour later, wouldn't you?

But this is nothing against xxx, Carlo. This is simply an example about something happening at a constatantly higher rate.

Thanks Cuchu, and Jana, I would like to repeat that this was nothing like a "Moderators please pay attention" message, but a "Forero's please let's work together" message. I don't see a lot o Cuchu, because I generally read the forums you work in without posting, but I read a lot of Jana, and I totally agree with the way she and ElaineG handle these situations.


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## moodywop

I hesitated before expressing my opinion on this issue as it is not my intention to stoke up controversy (if anything, my purpose is to remind us all of the community spirit of the WR forums at a time when we are celebrating their first two years). I changed my mind for a variety of reasons. One of them is that I regard all the people who have posted so far as friends and as people I trust and respect. That's one more reason why I feel I have to be completely frank.

While I fully support the WR rule on homework I am troubled by one contradictory aspect of the arguments put forward. The two Italian fore@s have shown lack of respect towards xxx by posting translations and ignoring his suggestion that the initial poster should give it a try herself first. I find it more serious that no one should have commented on the unfairness of posting the screen-names of the two fore@s involved without contacting them first by PM or at least informing them that they would be mentioned in this thread.

What's more they are both relatively new members. zzz, in particular, has only posted about 30 times. He is a serious, polite forero and I believe this is the first time he has posted a translation without waiting for the thread-opener's attempt. He wouldn't even have known about this thread if I hadn't informed him in order to give him a chance to respond. He told me he was extremely embarrassed and that he is not very familiar with forums. He didn't even know he had the option of deleting his post. 

I understand that many people feel very strongly about this issue but I think it would have been better (and fairer) to bring up the matter in general terms without mentioning names, especially if strong words like "despise" were going to be used.


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## Jana337

Good call, Carlo. I erased the names from all posts above.

Jana


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## moodywop

Thank you, Jana 

Knowing you, I was sure you would sympathize with my concern

Since it's a bilingual thread :

Conoscendoti, ero sicuro che avresti condiviso le mie preoccupazioni


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## Saoul

Hai ragione Carlo (come sempre del resto), non avrei effettivamente dovuto postare i nomi dei due membri a cui facevo riferimento. Mossa avventata e scorretta di cui chiedo scusa ai diretti interessati e a coloro che possano averla trovata offensiva.
Rimane che come ho scritto in più riprese, questo non è un discorso contro/verso/di/a/da/in/con/su/per/tra/fra loro. Ho usato il loro come esempio per un discorso più generalizzato. I due membri dell'esempio non sono ASSOLUTAMENTE i primi, e temo non saranno gli ultimi.
Non credo di aver usato parole di particolare aggressività nei loro confronti, ma ho solo stigmatizzato un comportamento che non mi è piaciuto, scrivendone le motivazioni. 
L'unico punto che mi sento di ribadire in questo caso, e ripeto che non parlo di loro, ma faccio il discorso in generale, per questo tipo di accadimenti, è che non credo che il buon senso scatti al 30/31/o 500 post, come il diritto di includere degli attachment nei post (Posting Rules, in fondo con la scritta You* may* use common sense  lo so è una cavolata ma non ho resistito). 
Per il resto sono d'accordo con te, sono stato frettoloso. Chiedo scusa.


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## LV4-26

I agree with what has been said before. Yes, we should try and not give a translation before the asker hasn't made an attempt her/himself. Especially if a mod or a forer@ has just invited the asker to comply with the rules.

Yet I think we should limit ourselves with declining to *translate*. Imagine the following scenario (the following is a contracted version of course)

1.xxx Could you tell me what this sentence mean?
2. yyy sorry it's against the rules. You should give it a try first
3. xxx But I don't want it to be translated. I just want to know what it means
4. yyy sorry but such are the rules......

If I were yyy, I think I'd feel entitled (in post #4) to answer and would try to paraphrase the sentence for xxx.

What do you think? Would I be wrong in doing so?


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## Elisa68

moodywop said:
			
		

> Several Italians (myself included) are staying away from threads asking for translations.


I am one of the several Italians Carlo referred to. I don't have much to add to what Carlo said since I agree with him completely. Another example of the absurd situation we are faced with is that even newbies with only a few posts to their credit tell off, for instance, a long-time forer@ because they mistook her request for help with a single phrase for a request for the translation of a whole passage which the forer@ had already translated herself.


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## Alfry

I think everybody is free to ask for a translation as well as everyone is free to try to translate.

OK, rules say: "give it a try first, please", that's fine, I agree with it, but if someone happens to translate it, even if no try was given by the poster, then they should not deserve lynching for this.

Just my opinion, I felt the urge (deep in my gut ) to post it.


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## DesertCat

Perhaps I'm still in need of caffeine, but where exactly is this rule stated? I don't see it in the FAQs/Rules or in any of the stickies under the IE forum.


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## ladybird

This is a difficult issue for mods and forum users alike.

I originally posted on this thread after becoming exasperated at reading some of the requests for translation in the I-E forum.

It became so annoying that I (yup, a newbie!) took it upon myself to politely ask the person concerned to have a go themselves initially.
I did point out that most of the info she wanted could be found in the WR dictionary. But no, the posts kept coming.
Elaine gave a long explanation to this person on a recent thread, all the help she could need to get the answer she wanted and then somebody else comes along and provides the info. 

I sympathize with the mods who feel that by providing simple translation they are not helping forum users to learn but after a bit of thought I agree with Alfry.

It is practically impossible to ward off the translation requests so if there is someone out there who wants to help, what harm can it do?
They are giving answers in their own free time and hey, the translation given might actually help someone to learn and gain confidence.
Those of us that really want to try (me, me!) will carry on making their attempts and asking for the invaluable help of the forum users.

By the way, I think what really swung my opinion was the thread that Carlo mentioned about the cancer sufferer..that was very disturbing.

I know I have rattled on a bit but I hope that you get the gist of what I am trying to say.

Regards,

ladybird


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## Jana337

DesertCat said:
			
		

> Perhaps I'm still in need of caffeine, but where exactly is this rule stated? I don't see it in the FAQs/Rules or the in any of the stickies under the IE forum.


 Work under progress - it is hard to get hold of all moderators in the summer.
It will be an Italian sticky.

Thank you for your patience.

***

A brief comment on the previous posts: Yes, some restraint on the part of several ferocious and over-zealous members is clearly needed. I promise that the rule will appeal to common sense.

Jana


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## lsp

Alfry said:
			
		

> I think everybody is free to ask for a translation as well as everyone is free to try to translate.
> 
> OK, rules say: "give it a try first, please", that's fine, I agree with it, but if someone happens to translate it, even if no try was given by the poster, then they should not deserve lynching for this.
> 
> Just my opinion, I felt the urge (deep in my gut ) to post it.


I have to echo Alfry as well as Carlo and Elisa.  We do seem to have gone overboard on the rules, especially this one. It's a free forum on the internet, not an accredited language institution. A lot of people reach it because they went to the dictionary to put in a word(s) in one language and get the equivalent one in the other language handed to them hassle-free on a silver platter. If the word isn't there or there are a few strung together in a sentence, with a conjugation tossed in, that doesn't always mean they want, need or deserve anything other than a straightforward reply from the rest of us. Before this rule I loved making my attempt and seeing corrections. Now I have to wait and defer to someone with sometimes 1 or a handful of posts, who may be a language lover, or may just be a tourist who thinks they found love in Piazza Navona and now wants to tell the world by tattooing some gushy sentiment on their body, or a Bocelli fan who wants to know what he's been singing in the shower lately. 

We've even been encouraged to look up the original poster's previous posts when in doubt to determine if they have enough skill to make a first attempt. That shouldn't be my responsibility. And recently a member applied the rule so blindly that they asked someone who is clearly bilingual and needed a 3-word expression  within an otherwise complicated sentence that the original poster clearly understood in both languages to make a first attempt.

I think we need to take a look at how rigidly the Mods (and unfortunately the members even more zealously) are turning this well-intentioned rule (designed to help newer language learners get started posting and using their skills) into a burden for the rest of us.

EDIT: Didn't see you there, Jana. At least until we _have_ a rule, maybe we can relax a little, especially in I-E, in demanding compliance! And now, we can make a rule that takes into considerations these concerns and possible unintentional misapplication of it, including letting non-Mods.


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## Moogey

Now thinking about it, I don't think it should be a rule, but I protect it because it's a rule. I try to protect all the rules, no matter what they are, even if I don't agree with them.

I find that when new members come if they are not corrected, they'll get in the habit of breaking the rules and will be hard to correct. Then why have rules at all? They'll say "Well I got away with it before and nobody said anything about it..." and argue with you about having to follow the rules.

-M


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## Elisa68

Moogey said:
			
		

> Now thinking about it, I don't think it should be a rule, but I protect it because it's a rule.


So you are protecting a rule which you think shouldn't be a rule and which doesn't exist. Can't you see the paradox?


> I find that when new members come if they are not corrected, they'll get in the habit of breaking the rules and will be hard to correct. Then why have rules at all? They'll say "Well I got away with it before and nobody said anything about it..." and argue with you about having to follow the rules.


Moogey, it's the other way round: new members are correcting senior members with thousands of posts to their credit.


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## Moogey

Elisa68 said:
			
		

> So you are protecting a rule which you think shouldn't be a rule and which doesn't exist. Can't you see the paradox?


It's not my job to decide whether or not a rule is just. I don't create the rules. I simply choose to protect the rules to help out WR run smoothly. It doesn't apply to just this rule, it applies universally. If the rule should suddenly be removed, I will just as suddenly stop protecting it.

I feel wholeheartedly that I'm doing a service to WR, and to its new members (and maybe even to its existing members). My intentions are pure, 100% good.

-M


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## Elisa68

Moogey said:
			
		

> It's not my job to decide whether or not a rule is just. I don't create the rules. I simply choose to protect the rules to help out WR run smoothly. It doesn't apply to just this rule, it applies universally. If the rule should suddenly be removed, I will just as suddenly stop protecting it.
> 
> I feel wholeheartedly that I'm doing a service to WR, and to its new members (and maybe even to its existing members). My intentions are pure, 100% good.
> 
> -M


There is a rule above all other rules which is so basic that it does not need to be written in a list: respecting a fellow member's dignity.


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## Moogey

Elisa68 said:
			
		

> There is a rule above all other rules which is so basic that it does not need to be written in a list: respecting a fellow member dignity.


I do not believe I have done any harm to anyone *at all*. And those aren't my intentions, either.

If I have done harm to anyone, *this is complete news to me*! I still, as I'm writing this, think I've done the right thing with everything since I joined.

-M


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## lsp

Moogey said:
			
		

> It's not my job ...


I guess that's why most of the moderating is and should be left to mods, who are chosen by Mike and other, experienced mods. It's a tough job. Sure we can help, but when they aren't around they usually choose senior members to PM and ask them to chip in and watch out for glaring infractions. Other than that, as you said, it's someone else's job.


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## Moogey

lsp said:
			
		

> I guess that's why most of the moderating is and should be left to mods, who are chosen by Mike and other, experienced mods. It's a tough job.


It is the job of the mods but I don't believe it's limited to them. Please (re)read my last two posts.

Edit: I don't want to discuss this anymore. I think that this post and my last 2 posts say it all. Thank you.

-M


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## DesertCat

Moogy, you may not want to discuss, but I'm afraid I don't understand how you can defend your practice of enforcing a rule that doesn't even exist. This is incredibly illogical.  Please see Jana's response to my question in post #25. 

Frankly, I think we should leave the moderating to the official mods.


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## brian

I guess it's about time I throw in my two cents dime...

When I first joined this forum, I was utterly amazed, astounded, all-in-all knocked-down-to-the-ground surprised not only at how much help was immediately given to me, but more importantly at the sincere graciousness and friendliness with which it was given.  Before my first day of posting I already felt what closeknit bonds had forged such a community of friends as this.  In fact, within my first week here I had received five or six PMs (from mods and forer@s alike, in IE as well as in English Only) welcoming me to the community and expressing how happy they were to have my company.  I could only feel the same way after such inconceivable hospitality.

I say "inconceivable" because, at the time, it was; but over the past few months I've come to conceive of this "inconceivability" as human decency made manifest.  This is no ordinary website or web forum and I hope you all know that.  This is a real living community, albeit one where members do come and go, that _thrives on language_.  I don't mean language in just the purely linguistic sense, though that is what we came here for.  What I mean is language in its purest form--as a means of communicating one's feelings, thoughts, and concerns--and that is what we stay for.

Everything we do here we do through language.  Words, as we know, can be powerful.  I've taken it upon myself to emulate those most hospitable members, who so graciously welcomed me, by PMing other new members as I see them come along, particularly when they show genuine interest in the forum and plan to stay for a while, or perhaps when they have tested me to my wits' end about one of those "trivial" semantic issues for which I wake up every morning .  Obviously I can't and don't PM every new member--especially the ones who come here for a quick translation or suggestion--nor do I expect others to do the same.  But like I said, in a place like this, kindness to newcomers is not so inconceivable--it's human decency.

So what does this have to do with the issue at hand?  Well, while I do agree with the new rule that will soon be imposed, I can say with utmost sincerity and truthfulness that I believe it to be like any other rule here and elsewhere, that is *subordinate to the rule that we as members of this community and as members of the human community at large are subject to follow every day by virtue of our existence in this world, which is that of human decency*.  When upholding said rule in such a way that jeopardizes the human dignity of any person in this community, whether he or she has 1 post or 1,000,000 posts, there is much more broken here than a simple translation rule.

Again, words are our only tools here.  We are here to sharpen and hone them, but we must use them with reservation and tact.  By all means, _please_ welcome a new member first and foremost, and then _kindly_ ask that he give his own attempt at translation.  Many times already have I seen a response of the newcomer in such a situation, saying, "Well I would've but it's really bad" or "...but it sounds stupid and I know it's wrong."  This a perfect opportunity to illustrate to that person just how welcoming this community is of its members' diligent efforts, mistakes and all.  So of course be encouraging and respectful and above all sincerely empathetic to the feelings of such a newcomer, but allow that person to progress in his comfort here at WR by taking that small step of translating.  However, at the other end of the spectrum, I've even seen an argument ensue where one of our members refused to translate, to the point that the newcomer decided never to return, at which comment our member responded something along the lines of "Sorry but that's the rules."  Again, as lsp said, this is not an accredited language institution, nor is this some elite club.  It's a community to which every one is welcome and in which everyone deserves to be treated with human decency.  Personally, I feel it a great loss to lose a potential member, who could've provided a wealth of information here, due to the obstinate enforcement of some rule.

Moreover, what I am mentioning here about hospitality, friendliness, respect--human decency in general--is not reserved just for new members.  The amount of posts you have or don't have does not change the amount of *respect due to you* or *due from you*.  This means that if someone breaks a rule, if you absolutely positively feel an innate urge compelling you to approach that person, do so with respect and decency.  (although I suggest just notifying a mod, since that's their job anyway.)  This also means that you should do your best to follow the rules that accompany this website to make it run as smoothly as possible and that have helped foster such a wonderful community.

If you want my explicit opinion on the rule being considered here, I say try to have the member translate, unless you somehow know (either from previous threads or from their saying so or from extracorporeal sensation) that they know no Italian, because I truly believe it to be an invaluable learning tool to have your work corrected, but unfortunately many coming here do not yet know that and must be shown.  However, we all know that people come and go here who care not for an understanding of the nuanced uses of _finché_ and merely want to keep up their correspondence with their boyfriend overseas or tatto "Ti voglio bene" on their forehead.  I say if people (like me) want to translate for them, regardless of what efforts the newcomer can (or can't) make, then let them go ahead.  The rest of us can still learn a lot, at the expense (so to say) of the clueless newcomer (though maybe that newcomer will one day feel the urge to start learning Italian).  But please, this is only my opinion and it's not an official rule yet, so do not be overzealous in enforcing it (or any rule for that matter) if it somehow endangers the integrity of this wonderful community, especially if it prompts a member--whether the newcomer or a well-established member--to leave.  It's not worth it.

I think I've gone on long enough.  I'd just to conclude by reiterating that as long as we all keep in mind the decency and, as Jana mentioned, the common sense with which we as WR community members and as human beings ought to live every day, and by explicitly manifesting these intentions through respectful, thoughtful language, I think WR can continue to thrive as the hospitable language community to which I was so glad to have been welcomed just a few months ago.


Brian


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## cuchuflete

By way of clarification, when the English Only mods first implemented a set of rules for *Homework/Schoolwork*, we included a request that the thread starter make an attempt at an answer before inviting help from others.  We never intended that any and all questions require a prior answer by the thread starter.

In the same spirit, if a student requests help with a translation,
it's reasonable to ask that the student show some initial effort.  From the content of this thread, it appears that some people are taking the student situation, and attempting to project it far and wide into all requests for help that may involve translation. 

This is an overzealous error, in my personal view.  The intended scope of the draft rules (we fully intended to see how they were working or not working, and modify as necessary from time to time once we had some live experience...) pertained especially to students who might mis-represent the work of other foreros as their own.

Those who help(!) students by doing work for them should be
given polite direction.  Other translation requests should be addressed on a basis of courtesy and common sense.


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## Moogey

I think part of the problem here is confusion.

I ask that a moderator clarify some things for all of us. That way, we will know for sure what kind of behavior is expected from us. For example:

Is it a rule that users must offer their translation attempt first?
--- Yes?
--- No?

If a user asks for a translation and doesn't offer their attempt and the answer to the previous question is 'yes', what is the expected behavior of the user?
--- Ask for an attempt first
--- Send a warning for the post
--- Offer a translation anyway
--- Do nothing (don't participate in the post)
--- Other

If the answer to the previous question is the first one and others start offering translations, even though they asked for a translation attempt from the original poster first, what should the user do?
--- Send a warning for the posts
--- Ignore it
--- Other

*Please add to this list if you are confused as well! Please, only a moderator answer these questions!*

I've discussed some of these with Jana already but I think the questions should be answered and perhaps annotated publicly.

-M


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## Jana337

> Is it a rule that users must offer their translation attempt first?
> --- Yes?
> --- No?


First of all, no such rule exists. It is merely an intention. And the answer would be "No" anyway; random askers need not be forced to make blind guesses.



> If a user asks for a translation and doesn't offer their attempt and the answer to the previous question is 'yes', what is the expected behavior of the user?
> --- Ask for an attempt first
> --- Send a warning for the post
> --- Offer a translation anyway
> --- Do nothing (don't participate in the post)
> --- Other


Does not apply. Use common sense; do not do someone's school assignment, feel free to help translate an SMS.



> If the answer to the previous question is the first one and others start offering translations, even though they asked for a translation attempt from the original poster first, what should the user do?
> --- Send a warning for the posts
> --- Ignore it
> --- Other


Ignore it. We have many new members who are ignorant about our modus operandi; they should familiarize themselves with the spirit of the forum over their first days and weeks here, but they need not be heavily policed. Don't worry too much about individual cases where people are just given the solution although they should have tried first. If you think that a particular member is too eager to provide solution where teaching would be a more helpful strategy, tell the moderators but do not try to moderate yourself. We should strive to weed out systematic abuse of the forum. We will inevitably err, but we should err on the side of decency. It does not hurt to give new members the benefit of doubt.

It is summer, which makes it difficult to come up with cases showing the rationale behind such a rule. Please refer to our long homework thread in CS. I am very upset when I learn that a teacher is afraid of giving the link to our forum for fear that the kids would get their homework done without effort. 

Jana


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## Moogey

Thank you Jana. I was operating off of false data. I thought it was a rule before this night/day (whatever it is in the world for you )

Hopefully this will clear up some confusion, if I'm not the only confused one!

-M


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## moodywop

I am going to express my feelings very openly here so I feel it is important to reiterate what I've been saying since I joined WR: this is a unique, amazing forum and we all owe an enormous debt of gratitude to the founder, to the volunteers who help run it and last but by no means least the members without whom the forum wouldn't exist.
Before joining WR I had posted in two forums for learners of Italian. These forums were rather dull. Nothing to do with any rules(there were hardly any except that members should respect others). Most language lovers are civilized people who do not need rules to behave as decent, reasonable human beings. If you care about linguistic nuances you are quite likely to care about more fundamental values even more.The two forums just didn't attract many people.
When I was referred to WR I couldn't believe my eyes. It was something I had only dreamed for and my only regret was not finding out about it before. I used to teach Italian in London. Having returned to my small town where the only foreigners are people who have settled here, I was not able to carry on teaching Italian, something I missed a lot. In a way joining WR allowed me to start teaching my native language again, to people from all over the world. I think my enthusiam shows in my early posts(not that it has waned).
The other thing that struck me was the spirit of a community of friends. I had always been suspicious of online friendships. I had never even downloaded a messenger program. Precisely because here everybody is a serious, highly motivated language lover I gradually overcame my qualms about befriending complete strangers. Never in a million years would I have imagined that in less than a year I would have had three members visiting me in my town. Only yesterday a forero I've only exchanged a few PMs with picked up my 19-year-old niece at Dublin airport and will be keeping an eye on her as she attends a language course there. These are the kind of people WR members are.
So what follows is just an attempt to preserve this community spirit. Any criticism I make is meant to be constructive. I learnt a long time ago that friendship can only thrive if based on complete openness and frankness. Because that's how I see you - as friends.

I would also like to plea with the mods not to delete this post as "too personal". It would be ironic. My first objection to this thread was that initially two forer@s were named and then attacked by fellow members with strong language like "I despise this behaviour". If I hadn't complained about it their names would still be listed in the first post. Nobody else - to my dismay - had considered that public pillorying was a much more serious violation of the spirit of WR than providing a translation without waiting for an attempt by the thread opener.

And since I have been open about my brain disorder that sometimes affects my judgment, let me be clear: at the moment my mental faculties are unimpaired(in a previous thread a forera used my candid admission to openly question my ability to take part in a controversial discussion. Her offensive post was not deleted as "too personal").

This whole affair started with some mods' and forer@s' concern about students taking advantage and passing replies to their queries as their own homework. This well-meaning concern ignored an incontrovertible objection I made. *Any *reply given here can be used by dishonest students. The focus has been on requests for translations. Well, what about the frequent requests for an explanation of a structure or phrase at EO? Members provide countless excellent examples. What if the poster had been one of my students and I had set as homework the writing of sentences containing that structure or phrase? Let's not kid ourselves - there are no reliable criteria for judging whether a reply will be used as homework.

What about the several professional translators who we daily provide with translations? There is one who has posted thousands of such requests. Aren't they misrepresenting their competence and command of English and passing as better qualified than they are to their employers?

The absurdity of this so far unwritten rule being enforced so strictly at IE is that we are a small community. I am 100% certain that we have never helped a student cheat. As a teacher, I'd also like to emphasize that if one of my students tries to pass someone else's work as his own I can tell right away(some are helped by relatives or private tutors). And anyway my students' command of English is assessed solely on the basis of tests they take at school under strict supervision. A teacher who doesn't know his/her students and can't tell if it's their own work should quit his/her job.

And yet for the past few months every single request for a translation has been met with stern, inflexible requests for a first attempt by the poster - even when it was a silly phrase for a tattoo or text message. Some overzealous *new* members assumed this was a written rule and started acting as self-appointed mods, often using authoritarian tones that no mod would ever use. Several senior members complained strongly about this unpleasant (and annoying) new trend. So I was surprised when no mods reminded the starters of this thread that they were denouncing publicly(because this is what they were doing - just read the first posts here) members who had violated no written rule. I am pleased to see that Jana and Cuchu have now put this right.

As I said in a post that I deleted last night while feeling overemotional, on two occasions two members who needed a translation for cancer patients were repeatedly, peremptorily told (by members, not by mods) to "give it a try first". And yet in one case the poster had mentioned in his first post that the girl was very sick and having chemotherapy.

It is all very frustrating for members who put a lot of effort into their explanations. Recently I wrote a long post explaining a very complex structure in the sentence submitted for translation. Immediately after posting it I noticed that a mod had deleted a non-native's completely wrong translation attempt. So I quickly deleted my own post(I didn't even have the time to save it as I wanted to avoid the embarrassment of having my post deleted and being told off publicly). Then a non-native member (actually the most fluent in Italian) begged for me to re-post my explanation as she herself had huge problems with that structure. A negotiation ensued and we were told to "wait until tomorrow". We don't even know how long we have to wait (after the initial poster has not complied with the request for a first attempt) before we are allowed to post a reply without risking deletion and a stern telling-off. We are left there waiting for instructions. It's frustrating and humiliating.

Since there seems to be agreement that the "give it a try first" rule does not exist and that overzealous foreros should not act as self-appointed mods why were they not only not told so but sometimes praised and encouraged for months? In a way they are not to blame for acting as they did as they assumed they were doing the right thing.

In the spirit of constructive criticism and frankness between friends I would appreciate it if someone addressed my objections.

PS I think more members would have read this important thread and contributed their views and suggestions had it not been for the completely misleading thread title
EDIT: by an amazing coincidence I have just received this PM from a forer@: 
_A very small request for you: could you translate for me the Pamela Anderson and Brad Pitt sentence into the title of this post? I understand something like that: "This is not PA nor BP in this horse race. I swear!" I don't understand what this means at all! This does not make any sense for me. _
(the smiley was in the original PM)


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## jester.

What an overwhelming message, Moodywop. I can do nothing but wholeheartedly agree with everything you say.


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## moodywop

j3st3r said:
			
		

> What an overwhelming message, Moodywop. I can do nothing but wholeheartedly agree to everything you say.


 
Thank you from the heart. Just out of curiosity - what did you think when you read the title of this thread? Did it give you any idea about the topic? (stupid question, I know ) Were you just curious to see what the thread was about because of the eccentric title?


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## KaRiNe_Fr

As far as I understood Carlo's post, I couldn't agree more. I wonder the same questions about overzealous foreros encouraged (or at least ignored) for months as this "give it a try first" is not (yet?) a rule... This is the case into the forum I use too, of course, and leads to absurd situation.

P.S.: and many thanks for the explanation of the title! Now I understand. If I could win a night with BP, I'm not sure I would not be tempted to be overzealous too.


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## jester.

moodywop said:
			
		

> Thank you from the heart. Just out of curiosity - what did you think when you read the title of this thread? Did it give you any idea about the topic? (stupid question, I know ) Were you just curious to see what the thread was about because of the eccentric title?



I din't understand it completely (in palio?) but the two famous names aroused my interest. I saw this thread already on its first day, but I have not participated in it until now, in order to agree with you.


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## moodywop

j3st3r said:
			
		

> I din't understand it completely (in palio?) but the two famous names aroused my interest. .


 
 

My point exactly. Is there a rule against misleading titles? Oh yes! It's called "common sense"!


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## Jana337

moodywop said:
			
		

> I am 100% certain that we have never helped a student cheat.


Come _on_...



> And yet for the past few months every single request for a translation has been met with stern, inflexible requests for a first attempt by the poster - even when it was a silly phrase for a tattoo or text message.
> (...)
> Since there seems to be agreement that the "give it a try first" rule does not exist and that overzealous foreros should not act as self-appointed mods why were they not only not told so but sometimes praised and encouraged for months?


 I surely hope you meant weeks and not months!? I searched for the relevant threads; all of them were started in July.

It is not humanly possible for moderators to open every thread 10 seconds after it was posted. Cases we considered blatant were dealt with privately; and where it did not disturb the flow of the thread, overzealous posts were deleted; and the need to find a viable solution is fully acknowledged.

I am a bit sad that no one seems to care about zeal on the other side. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed  him for a lifetime. Some people here are not as passionate teachers as you, Carlo, and give away fishes all to eagerly.

One very dilligent student of Italian, for example, actually hates being given complete answers (I won't write his name but regular visitors of the Italian forum will know). He prefers being taught, arriving at the solutions himself. He often explicitly asks other foreros to point out his mistakes instead of rewriting the sentences. And yet, he is often disappointed to see that people - none of whom features in this thread, to be clear - disregard his wishes and post a one-liner with a completely native sentence, frequently without any explanation. Would anyone care to consider his frustration as well?

I do not assume evil intentions on the part of those who "help" this way. It would be great if evil intentions were not assumed on the part of the foreros who started this thread.

Jana


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## moodywop

Jana337 said:
			
		

> It is not humanly possible for moderators to open every thread 10 seconds after it was posted. Cases we considered blatant were dealt with privately; and where it did not disturb the flow of the thread, overzealous posts were deleted; and the need to find a viable solution is fully acknowledged


I am well aware that my post was quite long. You evidently missed this passage:


> Recently I wrote a long post explaining a very complex structure in the sentence submitted for translation. Immediately after posting it I noticed that *a mod* had deleted a non-native's completely wrong translation attempt. So I quickly deleted my own post(I didn't even have the time to save it as I wanted to avoid the embarrassment of having my post deleted and being told off publicly). Then a non-native member (actually the most fluent in Italian) begged for me to re-post my explanation as she herself had huge problems with that structure. A negotiation ensued and we were told to "wait until tomorrow". We don't even know how long we have to wait (after the initial poster has not complied with the request for a first attempt) before we are allowed to post a reply without risking deletion and a stern telling-off. We are left there waiting for instructions. It's frustrating and humiliating.


As you can see it wasn't only foreros but also mods who enforced an unwritten rule. The new foreros, like Konrad Lorenz's ducklings, assimilated the "imprinting" and followed suit.



			
				Jana said:
			
		

> I do not assume evil intentions on the part of those who "help" this way. It would be great if evil intentions were not assumed on the part of the foreros who started this thread.
> Jana


 
I would steer clear clear of the word "evil" - it reminds me of another thread where I had to struggle to have a much more serious rule violation dealt with.

I didn't use the word "evil", did I? I leave this kind of language to others. I didn't start a thread on "Stigma" for nothing.

The truth of the matter is(for those who never got to read the deleted posts by me and by one of the foreros under attack):

One of the foreros being charged with "violation of a rule" and "lack of respect" PMed me me saying he was mortified, that the request for a "first attempt" had been posted at the same time as his translation(so he didn't know about it when he posted) and that he was not computer/forum savvy and didn't know he could delete his post - otherwise he would have done so immediately.
I posted, reporting his "defence" and criticizing the fact that the screen-names of the two foreros being denounced had been posted. Then he also posted, apologizing but also adding he couldn't understand why he was being mocked. [One of the foreros who had denounced him had called him "Mr Zelo" (Mr Zeal), even fitting this "character" into an imaginary scenario]
The forero's post in which he *apologized *and asked *not to be mocked* was deleted without a trace. The "Mr Zeal" remark he had objected to was *not* deleted.
And Jana, you yourself posted saying you "*despise*" the two forer@s' behaviour. That was* before* their screen-names were deleted at my request.

The epilogue: the forero who had PMed me told me that in future he would only be posting queries - he would avoid responding to requests for help. He has since vanished.

One more crucial objection: the deletion of an attempt (riddled with mistakes and therefore in no way benefcial to the unresponding thread starter) by a *non-native* prevented us from correcting this forer@'s attempt.

PS In case someone finds my use of the word "denounce" too strong:

*denounce* to express strong disapproval of someone or something, especially in public (_Longman Web Dictionary)_

It wasn't I who used loaded language. I recommend reading Dwight Bolinger's _Language: the Loaded Weapon._


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## coppergirl

moodywop said:
			
		

> And yet for the past few months every single request for a translation has been met with stern, inflexible requests for a first attempt by the poster - even when it was a silly phrase for a tattoo or text message. Some overzealous *new* members assumed this was a written rule and started acting as self-appointed mods, often using authoritarian tones that no mod would ever use. Several senior members complained strongly about this unpleasant (and annoying) new trend. So I was surprised when no mods reminded the starters of this thread that they were denouncing publicly(because this is what they were doing - just read the first posts here) members who had violated no written rule. I am pleased to see that Jana and Cuchu have now put this right.
> 
> It is all very frustrating for members who put a lot of effort into their explanations.
> 
> Since there seems to be agreement that the "give it a try first" rule does not exist and that overzealous foreros should not act as self-appointed mods why were they not only not told so but sometimes praised and encouraged for months? In a way they are not to blame for acting as they did as they assumed they were doing the right thing.


 
Hi everyone!

I have to agree here. If the rule doesn't actually exist, it might be as well if most of us let the mods enforce those that do exist. It is one thing to say "Welcome to the forum, please try to use standard language and not text message format" because in that case people are trying to learn and genuinely cannot read the messages properly in some cases. 

However, it is a completely different thing to have too many of us on "police duty". I, personally, refrain from trying to act as a mod in threads because I am not a mod. To be honest, I have probably only got a working knowledge of about half the rules!  I always write in standard English and my Italian is as "proper" and accurate as I can make it. I try my best to be polite to everyone and to answer questions sincerely, stating if I do not know the answer entirely or am not a native speaker. Even in English I usually suggest people wait for other natives before forming their judgements based solely on my opinion.

I use common sense as much as possible and, so far, tocca ferro/touch wood, it has gotten me this far without having been told off for too many wrongdoings myself.

I will admit that I find it a little bit alarming the number of times I have seen non-mods recently suggesting, however kindly, that completely new members might like to re-think it, have a go at translating etc simply because it strikes me (personally) as slightly cheeky to act as a mod if one isn't actually a mod. 

In other words, one function of the mods, as far as I am concerned, is that it frees the rest of us from having to actually BE a mod!  Sure, if something really terrible begins to occur in a thread, I will do my best to calm things down (I did this in one thread recently when someone got a bit heated) without directly confronting the person. If someone is completely new and doesn't know not to use text, I might mention it. But I don't go around my town telling everyone who is double-parked that they have to move their car or I will give them a ticket. They have traffic wardens for that job. They have mods for this job.

If I am chatting in a thread and a mod tells me to take it to the PMs, fine. If I am chatting in a thread and someone else were to tell me to take it to the PMs, then I rather think, especially as I am not new, that this is somewhat out of line.

I have not seen too many homework threads in I-E where I suspected people were genuinely cheating. I have seen an awful lot of one-line love messages, tattoos etc recently from people who were new and who were not really aware that there were rules. To point them in the direction of the Sticky is one thing, but for me to start listing all the rules they are breaking when they are brand new is, in my own view, out of line on my part.

I very much enjoy the fora and am learning a lot. However, so far, I have managed to get by knowing by heart only the absolutely main rules (citing sources, no chat, useful title line in thread) and I am "winging" the rest based on common sense and a basic sense of "do unto others . . . ". So far it has worked mostly. But as far as "do unto others" goes . . . the last thing I would personally like to be done unto me would be for someone to come along with nice intentions telling me that I "need to change the way I post, because . . . "

As always, just my two cents.

Cheers!


----------



## maxiogee

May a non-translator interject here?

Why not PM people who ask for translations without observing the 'rule', but whom you feel deserve to be helped?

There have been instances on the EO forum where I have felt that people were attempting to have all their work done for them by posting multiple and sequential requests for assistance in understanding/interpreting a passage. Sometimes one can see that the enquirer has made a serious effort at handling the task, at others the task is full of technical language and requires language no learner ought to be expected to be in possession of, and at other times one can see that there are nuances to the wording which only a native can appreciate. These people deserve our help and they certainly get mine - legal or not.


----------



## moodywop

coppergirl said:
			
		

> I will admit that I find it a little bit alarming at the number of times I have seen non-mods recently suggesting, however kindly, that completely new members might like to re-think it, have a go at translating etc simply because it strikes me (personally) as slightly cheeky to act as a mod if one isn't actually a mod.
> 
> . But as far as "do unto others" goes . . . the last thing I would personally like to be done unto me would be for someone to come along with nice intentions telling me that I "need to change the way I post, because . . . "


 
Thank you, coppergirl, for confirming that the situation at IE I complained about is not a figment of my imagination or even just an exaggeration.

As for "however kindly", a well-liked, respected, extremely helpful and polite forero (probably the only Italian never to have crossed swords with anyone - we actually affectionately tease him for his "conflict avoidance" ), with thousands of brilliant posts to his credit, was dismayed when he received a PM from a fellow forero asking him to delete one of his posts since he had broken the "rule" we are discussing here.

(I am not violating anybody's privacy here since, unlike others, I have not revealed any screen-names)


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## lsp

We actually are _not_ a teaching institution, though clearly we who stick around try, and have a love for, teaching and learning. Clicking the link at the top of the page I found this: "_The WordReference Dictionaries are free online translation dictionaries.  The most popular dictionaries are the Spanish Dictionary, French Dictionary and the Italian Dictionary....  If you don't find what you are looking for in the dictionaries, you can search or ask in the forums...._"

So here’s what I would like to suggest formally as a guidleline for the benefit of all contributors, new and old (even though Brian8733, Cuchuflete and Jana have already informally suggested this direction):

_*All questions are answered. Then, voluntarily - by members who are so inclined, or by a welcoming Mod - we include words of encouragement, like: “Please do try your own attempt with your next question. No one will laugh and you’ll be surprised at how fast you’ll learn and how many other non-natives will come along to offer their support and their own suggestions.” Same effect, a tasteful welcome, life goes on, people who are here to learn will ultimately self-identify as such, and will know for next time if they decide to hang around that they can and should participate. On a voluntary basis.
*_​All the newbies, and all of us veterans, would be well served by this polite approach. Those who are inclined to moderate as members can contribute in this prescribed manner, the rest of us can continue practicing Italian or English or any other language by providing an answer and carrying on with the business of language exchange and fun.


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## Elisa68

lsp said:
			
		

> _*All questions are answered. Then, voluntarily - by members who are so inclined, or by a welcoming Mod - we include words of encouragement, like: “Please do try your own attempt with your next question. No one will laugh and you’ll be surprised at how fast you’ll learn and how many other non-natives will come along to offer their support and their own suggestions.” Same effect, a tasteful welcome, life goes on, people who are here to learn will ultimately self-identify as such, and will know for next time if they decide to hang around that they can and should participate. On a voluntary basis.*_


Thanks Lsp! This is perfect!


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## timpeac

As a moderator who has not participated in this thread, and is therefore not so envolved, I would like to remind everyone to stick strictly to the topic here (which has now been made clear in the title). Clarification on what is intended by a "try yourself first" rule has been asked for and given. Opinions from all, which are always welcome, have been given on how you feel the rule should work and where you think you have seen it going wrong. This is all well and good. However, some of you are mixing in other "moderation" issues you have come up against in the past. These are not relevant and, as stated in those pesky rules, should be discussed by PM. That said - if any of you have old issues that still cause you discomfort I would strongly suggest that you do contact a moderator _by PM_ to discuss. There is no point in letting things fester.

Respectfully,

timpeac (moderator).


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## lsp

It occurs to me that in our zeal to address new arrivals, we even overlook mistakes like this one 





> Grazie per tuttie due di voi ! (posso dire cosi?)


 where not only were mistakes made, but corrections were specifically requested. In the interest of fairness, it has since been commented on, but it fairly illustrates a common practice. More attention is beinf paid of late to the first-attempt rule than to daily life among those of us who really want to crunch the nuances of grammar. Let's also take this into consideration as we contemplate the issue. Teaching by example (quick gentle corrections, for instance) will do more to encourage and guide the recent additions to the community Thanks!


----------



## moodywop

lsp said:
			
		

> It occurs to me that...


 
There's a lot of occurring going on It has just _occurred _to me that nobody pointed out a glaring inconsistency in the overzealous foreros' behaviour. They say they care about the rules and tell other foreros to read them and comply with them. But they clearly didn't read them themselves - otherwise they would have realized that the "first attempt" rule is not there!

Clearly they don't live in glasshouses...


----------



## lsp

moodywop said:
			
		

> didn't read them themselves - otherwise they would have realized that the "first attempt" rule is not there!


You're right. That thought and the irony did occur to me recently, since this whole issue has come to the forefront!



3-2-1...


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## maxiogee

How can we expect newcomers to abide by the rules when many of them show, often in their very first post, that they have not even read the rules?


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## lsp

maxiogee said:
			
		

> How can we expect newcomers to abide by the rules when many of them show, often in their very first post, that they have not even read the rules?


We can't (I think that's very much the point here, in fact). That's why our example becomes so profoundly important. However, I also don't imagine many veterans are truly familiar with rules, other than the ones they see getting frequent attention on the "front-end."


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## Moogey

I'd like to speak for MY actions here, I can't speak for anyone else's. I won't name specific moderators in this little bit below.

Not long ago I noticed a moderator posting in many threads asking (and even expecting) that the thread start post an attempt first. Then, after this moderator posted, other members started replying without waiting for the thread starter's attempt. Then _another_ moderator deleted these posts telling them to listen to the first moderator who asked in the first place. It was then that I assumed that now, all of a sudden, a translation attempt is required from each and every member wanting a translation.

Assuming this, whenever a member would come on and ask for a translation, I thought I was doing the right thing telling them about the rules. I didn't intend to act like a moderator at all. I figured that if this new person is here asking for a translation and doesn't know that he or she must try first, it's the right thing to inform him. If not me, then somebody else would've told them. If it's against the rules to reply without an attempt first, then they should know! So I would tell them. Alternatively, if you use the logic that has been presented, a moderator would have to go into *every single thread* where no translation attempt was provided and say "Give us your attempt first" Furthermore, I was under the impression that if you posted a translation without the thread starter's attempt, you would be breaking the rules.

I have read the rules about 4 times. And in fact, the irony of it all, yesterday I sent a PM to Jana saying something along the lines of *"Where is this rule about having to post a translation attempt first? I have read the rules several times and I haven't seen it!" *(That's not a quote, but the message/question was exact.) She said she wants to have a sticky about it soon, which would make it a real rule. (Of course, she said that before all of this happened, so things might be different now).

So:

1. I was trying to inform the members
2. I was under the impression from Jana that this rule existed and that there would be a sticky acknowledging the rule soon.
3. I still don't believe I did anything wrong; I was under a false impression.

Right now, pointing fingers and naming specific instances is getting us nowhere really. Too many of our fellow posters here are just yapping about specific instances rather than working towards resolutions. Lsp, however, offered a resolution suggestion which I agree with.

As I said before, I know now that this is not a rule and will not post for a translation attempt anymore.

Thank you,
-M


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## baolian

Hi all.
I just want to point out a situation.
I'm not such a good english "writer" or speaker, so I often use this forum to clarify my doubts and remember rules I've forgotten.
As a matter of fact, I came in contact in the first place with this forum because I was using the Wordreference dictionary, to figure out by myself the translations and rules I needed.
I've also seen, in this forum, a lot of "stupid" thread, posted by junior member (usually their first post) asking for such easy translations (sentences which were so similar in English and in Italian, that you'd have think they didn't know what a dictionary is).
So I understand when someone asks the poster to give it a try.

My point is...and if the poster (zzz, or xxx, or call him/her as you like), a person you don't know,  as well as you don't know his/her reason to post,  had his/her reasons not to write a try of transalation...have you ever think about that?

(It happened to me...I didn't want to "influence" the members who so kindly have decided to help me, but let them free to answer without any bias...so they have been able to give answers I would have never thought, limited in my "view" by my own ideas, previous experiences, etc...)

In the end...in this forum, we are all trying to learn something...and maybe help each other...anyone can decide to help by either translating or "asking for a try, even if wrong"...maybe the second one often is more useful, actually...
...but who really knows?

And help is help, bigger or smaller but it's help, no matter in which shape it comes....


(corrections are welcome, as usually...)

Bye!


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## Moogey

Hi,

I have sent corrections through PM so this doesn't turn into an IE thread 

-M


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## ireney

Just a note: there is a person who is a student. I know this because I was informed of the fact by this person. We communicate by PMs. At times I am asked questions like the following: "Hi, in the following exercise I don't understand whether I should use a) or b). Can't I use both?".

I have answered these giving a usually rather lengthy explanation of why and I would do the same in the public forums if I wasn't still unclear on whether this violates the rules or not. I am a teacher. If I give my students an exercise and they come up with the  answer *knowing why this is the correct one* I couldn't care less if they figured it out themselves, understood it by my explanation or required and got further information from another source. I used to ask my mom (who is a teacher too) quite often during my school-years instead of my schoolteacher myself 

What I do object is one-liners giving just the right answer. However, only a rather incompetent teacher will not understand sooner rather than later that a student has just parroted the right answer.


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## esterzosa

Hi everyone,

I am brand new here, and yes, I have read the rules, at least the ones posted in the Spanish/English forum.

When I first posted here, I have been searching the answer to my doubt in three Dictionaries (some on-line, some not), finding anything. I think my English is pretty good (no time now to be modest, and I am not saying I speak like a native speaker, of course), and I have learned most of it reading books, without anyone telling me the "right way" to say anything. This is my way, and it's good for me. Perhaps I only need a correct translation for a word, or perhaps I need a correct translation for a sentence, because the meaning can be evasive. Sometimes I don't have any clue how to translate it or which is the meaning, but I can try a fake if you like (I have done this once and this doesn't mean that I have made a great effort to learn). But the answers given, even if there were only pure translations, have helped me in a great way, perhaps to think other ways to say the same that people were suggesting me.

I trust in the people that replies me, that they are making an effort to help me, and though some of the people here are professional translators, I think the most are not. Perhaps the answer is not the best of them, perhaps is only an attempt to be of help, perhaps only a translation is needed, and not a large explanation about the origin of a word.

We are all learners here, but the first thing I have learned here is that if you need some help anytime, anywhere, there is ever someone here pleased to help you. And THAT is what makes this forum great.

Personally, I find the grammar of any language absolutely boring, because most of the times it keeps rules that the people are not using anymore. The language evolves but the rules keep going at snail speed.

Sometimes the person that is asking help needs the translation for an important reason, perhaps because he/she is living in a foreign country and has received an official request for somenthing that he/she is unable to fully comprehend. Perhaps is someone in love with someone of a foreign country and needs desperatedly to understand the message of his/her lover. And yes, perhaps is someone that doesn't want to make an effort, but, perhaps my answer could help anyone else that is trying truly.

I think the best is to share, more or less, worse or better, and keep the judgments for ourselves. If someone learns reading, or writing, or asking, or listening, or helping they are all worth for me.

Thanks for this great, great forum to ALL of you.


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## maxiogee

ireney said:
			
		

> Just a note: there is a person who is a student. I know this because I was informed of the fact by this person. We communicate by PMs. At times I am asked questions like the following: "Hi, in the following exercise I don't understand whether I should use a) or b). Can't I use both?".
> 
> I have answered these giving a usually rather lengthy explanation of why and I would do the same in the public forums if I wasn't still unclear on whether this violates the rules or not. I am a teacher.



Ireney, I thoroughly agree with you.
I am not a teacher, and am not grammatically qualified or aware enough to answer many of the grammar questions posed on the English Only forum where I tend to hang out. However, if someone asks a question such as you quote - why can't I use both? - it shows that they are thinking abolut their assignment in more than just the 'churn out the answer' fashion and are, in my opinion, to be assisted.

It is part of why I am here. I learn things, certainly, but I see my main reason for staying around in trying to help others to enjoy and think about language the way I do. I have no intention of doing anyone's homework for them, but if they ask "why" I'll do my best to help.


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## TimLA

Great discussion, in both languages. 

To start, let me be partially supportive of the errant forero's, because I remember when I started here just six months ago. Though the database interface is supberb, it is intimidating, and though I am a major computer nerd, I still don't have all of the intricacies down regarding WR.

Second, I would be supportive of them because of the way I do "Reply" and "Edit". I will work on some of those screens for up to 2-3 hours. I go through dictionaries, websites, texts, rack my brain, and then when I post my response, I see that there are 10 foreros in front of me who have already posted. Fine, no problem, there is no evil intent on their part, nor on mine - the fact that others have made the same points before me is OK, sometimes I'll delete mine because it's overly duplicative.

Most of our motivations as foreros are truly to be "helpful" - that is my nature, and often I have a hard-time controlling it. At the beginning I was "contacted" and told I should *not* be helping professional translators. OK, 'tis a reasonable approach, but every time I help someone, I learn something. So I will still help people "behind the scenes" with PM, just like most of you do (I'm sure, since you've all helped me by PM).

To me, the ultimate question, derived from that raised by my bro' Saoul, is "What is to be done?". And perhaps a formal approach might help the Mods develop a formal policy.

1. *How often is "homework" presented on Italian/English WR?*
I'm sure we see 1-2 per day - at the most? Is it OK to help without an attempt by the poster? Do we really know it's homework? Does this deserve a formal response by the Mods and foreros?

Being a former teacher, I think I'd be happy that any student would take the time to (1) find WR, then (2) ask a reasonably intelligent question. 

2. *Can all of us work together to limit inappropriate posts?*
Perhaps the mods and more experienced foreros might develop a formal PM to send to errant foreros when they see problems. Analogous to Jana's recent request for help with problem posts while Mods were on vacation - can we help-out? "Caro ragazzo, dato le regole di WR, sarebbe meglio..."

As has been mentioned here, I'm not sure that I (or anyone) should take on the formal role of a Mod. Most of the time that I see issues, I won't raise them, because most of the time they are minor. If I see an important issue, I'll send one of the "warnings" (upper right-hand corner) that goes to all Mods. Sometimes I'll joke with a new poster and say "Aw, come'on, give it a try"...but I would prefer not to be disciplinary - not my yob man, I prefer to help.

*3. Can the mods come up with a series of specific statements that perhaps all of us might use in "odd" situations.*
Mods are not available 24/7 and some of us insomnics are.
Can we help the Mods as much as we would like to help other foreros?
I think we might.

Just some minor thoughts, prior to cena, and Brunello....


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## moodywop

TimLA said:
			
		

> At the beginning I was "contacted" and told I should *not* be helping professional translators.


 
Now that's news to me! 

Who contacted you? A mod or a forer@?

*Every day *you and I and countless others help professional translators. While our help spares Italian viewers having to decipher puzzling lines and subtitles in TV series and movies I am indeed concerned about these translators giving their employers the impression they are better qualified than they are. But once again, I don't think that there is any rule that can solve this dilemma. The translator could simply pretend to be someone who heard the line in a movie.


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## la reine victoria

I have a forero friend who has been studying English for 6 years.  His command of the language is quite amazing.

He became so tired of posting in the forum (with very minor queries) and receiving unhelpful comments, that he turned to me for help.

We exchanged email addresses and, periodically, he offers me some of his very short translations (sentences) and asks for reassurance that they are correct.  Knowing that he has done the work himself I gladly help him.

In fact, he is so gifted, corrections are very rarely needed.  If they are I always explain why.

He is simply seeking reassurance which, alas, he failed to find in the forum.  





LRV


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## timpeac

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> I have a forero friend who has been studying English for 6 years. His command of the language is quite amazing.
> 
> He became so tired of posting in the forum (with very minor queries) and receiving unhelpful comments, that he turned to me for help.
> 
> We exchanged email addresses and, periodically, he offers me some of his very short translations (sentences) and asks for reassurance that they are correct. Knowing that he has done the work himself I gladly help him.
> 
> In fact, he is so gifted, corrections are very rarely needed. If they are I always explain why.
> 
> He is simply seeking reassurance which, alas, he failed to find in the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LRV


Tell him to contact an EO mod with an example - we cannot help people if they do not let us know of problems/concerns.


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## Moogey

I have been thinking about this quite a bit and I just want to say that I think the way that rules are handled is quite ridiculous.

I come to this site to help other people learn another language, not to slap down in front of them the rules. It's annoying for me and for the person I'm doing it to. And plus, that'll scare away people.

I think that we should be able to offer help in any case and if a mod finds the help inappropriate (say, for a homework assignment) then he or she can delete the post and lock the topic (as is done now already). But the user shouldn't be held fully accountable for the discretion of whether or not a response should be given and what should be said regarding the rules (which probably shouldn't even be said). 

If the first response to my first post here at WR was a list of the rules, I would be less apt to hang around. But in fact, I got a nice warm welcome!

You may have noticed if you hang out in IE how differently I handle threads now. I don't even think about pasting forum rules. I'm done with trying, I don't want to hear complaints from anyone about it, I just want to help people learn a new language.

If a person doesn't use proper capitalization, I won't correct them. If they use chatspeak, I won't say anything about it. If they post multiple questions in a thread, I won't tell them to have one question per thread.

I'm just going to help people learn a language, and enjoy it!!!!

Can we resolve to remove any tension regarding this so we can all just post, be happy, not act like mods if we're not, and be welcoming and helpful to everyone as some users are already? 

I have absolutely changed sides. I stand next to Carlo and the others! What was I thinking?


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## timpeac

Moogey said:
			
		

> I have been thinking about this quite a bit and I just want to say that I think the way that rules are handled is quite ridiculous.
> 
> I come to this site to help other people learn another language, not to slap down in front of them the rules. It's annoying for me and for the person I'm doing it to. And plus, that'll scare away people.
> 
> I think that we should be able to offer help in any case and if a mod finds the help inappropriate (say, for a homework assignment) then he or she can delete the post and lock the topic (as is done now already). But the user shouldn't be held fully accountable for the discretion of whether or not a response should be given and what should be said regarding the rules (which probably shouldn't even be said).
> 
> If the first response to my first post here at WR was a list of the rules, I would be less apt to hang around. But in fact, I got a nice warm welcome!
> 
> You may have noticed if you hang out in IE how differently I handle threads now. I don't even think about pasting forum rules. I'm done with trying, I don't want to hear complaints from anyone about it, I just want to help people learn a new language.
> 
> If a person doesn't use problem capitalization, I won't correct them. If they use chatspeak, I won't say anything about it. If they post multiple questions in a thread, I won't tell them to have one question per thread.
> 
> I'm just going to help people learn a language, and enjoy it!!!!
> 
> Can we resolve to remove any tension regarding this so we can all just post, be happy, not act like mods if we're not, and be welcoming and helpful to everyone as some users are already?
> 
> I have absolutely changed sides. I stand next to Carlo and the others! What was I thinking?


It sounds like you are doing exactly what Jana categorically requested for the Italian forum many posts ago - that you all let the mods mod. You can always report a post which will leave it up to the mod to decide if action is necessary or not.

Let me repeat her -



> Ignore it. We have many new members who are ignorant about our modus operandi; they should familiarize themselves with the spirit of the forum over their first days and weeks here, but they need not be heavily policed. Don't worry too much about individual cases where people are just given the solution although they should have tried first. If you think that a particular member is too eager to provide solution where teaching would be a more helpful strategy, tell the moderators but do not try to moderate yourself.


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## Moogey

timpeac said:
			
		

> It sounds like you are doing exactly what Jana categorically requested for the Italian forum many posts ago - that you all let the mods mod. You can always report a post which will leave it up to the mod to decide if action is necessary or not.


Pretty much, but also I wasn't the only one doing what I was doing. I wouldn't have done it if I was the only one. If you look at moodywop's link up there, even after all this, what I was doing happened today by another user!

But now, I can't even stand the idea of doing that. I _was_ trying to be helpful, but now I see it's not really very helpful.

-M


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## timpeac

Moogey said:
			
		

> Pretty much, but also I wasn't the only one doing what I was doing. I wouldn't have done it if I was the only one.
> 
> But now, I can't even stand the idea of doing that. I _was_ trying to be helpful, but now I see it's not really very helpful.
> 
> -M


Hi Moogey - don't worry about it. It's clear you were just trying to do your best. This whole issue is obviously rather sensitive in the IT forum. That's one of the advantages of having moderators - you can just dump all the responsibility onto them! When in doubt report a post, and then you have already helped us very much.


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## brian

I maintain that there are occassions where I'll mention a particular rule, for example:

_OMG i really need sum1 2 gimme a transl'n 4 this! i have NO idea wut it means. LOL!!!!!! plz help ne1. thx.  LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
_
Please.


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## timpeac

brian8733 said:
			
		

> I maintain that there are occassions where I'll mention a particular rule, for example:
> 
> _OMG i really need sum1 2 gimme a transl'n 4 this! i have NO idea wut it means. LOL!!!!!! plz help ne1. thx. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111_
> 
> Please.


Then, if you do it in the IT forum where a moderator has specifically asked you not to, be prepared for them to ask you not to again (although if it as blatant as that I suspect they will simply be glad of the help depending on the wording used).

This thread has shown a lot of confusion as to what "moderating" members should do. The strict answer is none, and if the issue is going to cause confusion and if people are going to do it in a way that the relevant moderators do not like then they are going to say "please don't moderate". That said, we are all reasonable adult people, so if you put a rule kindly and state it correctly I doubt a moderator is going to get too annoyed. However, it is for the moderators to moderate and if they prefer it that way in the forum they are moderating it is their prerogative to request you simply report posts that you are not happy with.


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## Moogey

brian8733 said:
			
		

> I maintain that there are occassions where I'll mention a particular rule, for example:
> 
> _OMG i really need sum1 2 gimme a transl'n 4 this! i have NO idea wut it means. LOL!!!!!! plz help ne1. thx.  LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111
> _
> Please.


The new and improved Moogey would just not post there, or report the post 

Edit: And also you have to realize that members can become snotty and infuriated if a non-mod "lays the law on them", but it probably wouldn't be the case if a real mod did it. On this forum at this time it's borderline customary, but on another forum if someone did that to me, and they weren't a mod, I'd think "Who are you to tell me that?" But I wouldn't sweat it Brian, I think you've done the right thing all along.

-M


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## geve

I am thinking that there might be things going on in the IE that I don't know about (*), but I'm a bit puzzled here.
I perfectly agree that moderating tasks should be left to moderators, but


			
				Moogey said:
			
		

> If a person doesn't use proper capitalization, I won't correct them. If they use chatspeak, I won't say anything about it. If they post multiple questions in a thread, I won't tell them to have one question per thread.


I don't see where the problem is to ask someone something that will make the foruming more efficient for everyone. If a question lacks context, or I can't understand it because it's full of abbreviations, or if it's multiple questions (these threads are very hard to follow), I will tell the poster. 

When I'm at the swimming pool and someone is swimming on the wrong side of the line, at the risk of causing a collision, hurting himself as well as others, I think that the first thing I would do, is to kindly inform this person that you're supposed to swim on the right side. If the person isn't willing to hear what I say, or don't see the point in listening to me, _then_ I would probably ask a lifeguard to step in - hoping that the uniform will be more effective (or I would just drop it and consider I'm done with swimming). 
I wouldn't tell the guy how he should swim (I can barely flap my legs, so who would I fool?  ) - that I leave to the ones who know better and whose job it is.
I'd rather disturb the lifeguards for more valuable reasons - someone drowning, or a shark attack (hey, you never know!!)


* if it's the case, and I'm totally missing the point, please delete this message


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## brian

Well, my post above was made more in a joking manner than anything (although I actually have seen some chatspeak approaching the irritating nonsense I just made up), but my point was that there are some cases where I think it's perfectly fine for member who's been here a little while and knows how the forum should work to kindly point out certain things to new members, especially if their conduct is so blatant.  This has nothing to do with laying down the law or enforcing rules of any kind; rather, this has to do with notifying new members of some important things that help the forum run smoothly.

I generally don't make a fuss over much.  I probably wouldn't say anything about chatspeak if I could still read it.  But the one thing I do like to point out to new members is that they should title their threads properly and, if some of the side-questions of a particular thread merit their own thread, that they should start a new one.  These are like my golden rules here because I learn so much here by reading old threads.  I've gotten really good at finding out how to say certain things or build certain constructions by searching for threads concerning them, but this would be impossible if 1) the thread is incorrectly titled, or 2) some important discussion is actually the hidden off-topic product of another thread.

Other than that, though, I don't say much.  I can't say, Moogey, that I 100% agree with your not saying anything at all, BUT I definitely do respect it.  In the same vein, though, I think it's just as respectable for established members to _kindly_ point out to new (and old) members any "rules" or whatever that they find particularly important.  I think this is much different from "moderating."  I don't point out the thread title rule because it's a rule; I do it because if everyone follows it, I benefit immensely.

I think lsp's statement says it all.  The choice to encourage members to act a certain way or do a certain thing is completely _voluntary_, meaning it's perfectly fine if Moogey doesn't want to say a thing--it's not his responsibility.  Yet, if someone wants to, I think he may _kindly_ (and with tact) point out certain things, provided they are justified and said in a way that does not in anyway insult, subordinate, or "scare off" the member.

That being said, I'm glad the bulk of the weight rests on the mods.  I just  believe it's ok to lift a finger to help carry the weight every now and then.


Brian


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## Moogey

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Other than that, though, I don't say much.  I can't say, Moogey, that I 100% agree with your not saying anything at all, BUT I definitely do respect it.



Well unfortunately here it has become the case where if you do mention rules and you're not a mod, you take heat from everyone. Look at what happened to me!

If for no other reason, don't say anything to protect *yourself*!

-M


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## lsp

There's a happy medium, and I think we can/should all help each other try to find it. Brian8733 makes very strong points about some of the things we should still make note of, and how to do it without seeming too ferocious!


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## cuchuflete

Quite a few participants in this conversation are consistent helpers of the mod team.  They let mods know when things need attention, and offer gentle advice to newbies.  Personally, I welcome that community spirit and initiative by other foreros.

Some mods do get provoked when foreros start acting as stern police, and with good reason.  Friendly advice is useful, and in keeping with the tone we all want.  Advising someone to write in the languages of a given forum, and to avoid chatspeak, is worthwhile advice that can be offered in a congenial way.  If that's not comfortable, or effective, just use the red triangle.


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## Jana337

timpeac said:
			
		

> Then, if you do it in the IT forum where a moderator has specifically asked you not to, be prepared for them to ask you not to again (although if it as blatant as that I suspect they will simply be glad of the help depending on the wording used).


In fact, she did not in this case.  Elaine and I are very happy to see that forer@s help us educate new members who write the way Brian showed. We also appreciate discreet hints about informative titles etc. (lsp has a wonderful feeling for appropriate interventions; she can be a model for other members).

Such hints are welcome in a P.S., i.e. if the forer@ has something else to say, too. We are quite upset to read pseudomod messages without any linguistic content (a notable exception, of course, is to ask the thread opener for more context).

Jana


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## moodywop

Cuchu's post seems to me to exemplify perfectly the "happy medium" advocated by Lsp.



			
				geve said:
			
		

> I don't see where the problem is to ask someone something that will make the foruming more efficient for everyone. If a question lacks context, or I can't understand it because it's full of abbreviations, or if it's multiple questions (these threads are very hard to follow), I will tell the poster.


Nobody here is contesting that. If anything, I think that at IE we should all be more careful about starting a new thread when a word or phrase unrelated to the thread topic starts being discussed. A highly motivated student like Brian is constantly using the search function to read old threads on grammar topics he's interested in. The choice of an appropriate thread title is of paramount importance. As a few members mentioned, if one collected all the grammar/usage threads at IE the result would be a better Italian usage guide than any available on the market. Some usage points have been treated at much greater length than in academic grammar books. This shows that on the whole the level of discussion at IE is extremely high. The occasional request for the translation of a tattoo or romantic text message may even serve the function of providing a break from detailed, demanding discussions of usage. And a seemingly silly sentence often contains a word or structure that leads to an interesting discussion of semantic or grammatical nuances(this happened more than once only yesterday).

It may well be that for a short while we go from one extreme (strict enforcement of a non-existing rule, members acting as mods) to the other (members shying away from sensible reminders like the ones mentioned by geve) but in the end I'm sure a sensible balance will be restored.
Let's not forget that two IE mods have disappeared, that Elaine is very busy at work and that therefore Jana has to shoulder all the burden. Unfortunately there seem to be no volunteers for mod positions at IE.

I'd also like to add that Moogey's recent posts in this thread should be a lesson to us *all.* He has shown a maturity way beyond what his young age might lead one to expect. I'm happy to report that our initially opposite positions have not in any way affected our friendship. His mastery of Italian is becoming more impressive by the day. Would that we had more members like him. Well done, Moogey!


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