# Trying to have children



## Andrew___

Hi guys,

I would like to say in MSA:

_My wife and I have been trying to have children since the day of our marriage.  However, despite all our attempts we have not succeeded.  We are patiently waiting for this, and God willing we will succeed in the near future._   My attempt is:
*
أنا و زوجتي نحاول أن نخلق أطفال منذ يوم الزفاف.  بالرغم من كل محاولاتنا, لم ننجح.  ننتظر ذلك بصبر و إن شاء الله سننجح في القريب العاجل*


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## ayed

Al Sulhafa said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I would like to say in MSA:
> 
> _My wife and I have been trying to have children since the day of our marriage. However, despite all our attempts we have not succeeded. We are patiently waiting for this, and God willing we will succeed in the near future._ My attempt is:
> 
> *أحاول أنا وزوجتي أن ننجب أطفالاً منذ يوم زفافنا، لكننا لم نفلح/ننجح رغم محاولاتنا . ننتظر ذلك بصبر و إن شاء الله سننجح في القريب العاجل*


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## cherine

Ayed's version is excellent  but allow me a couple or remarks:

- When I read نخلق أطفالاً I went   You know, Andrew, that only God can create babies (and all other creatures for that matter). So, beware with the use of this verb 

- Although Ayed's ننجب أطفالاً is perfectly correct, I think the word الإنجاب is enough. So, we can say: نحاول الإنجاب .

Here's another suggestion for the wording of this sentence:

أنا و زوجتي نحاول الإنجاب منذ زفافنا، ولكن لم ننجح بالرغم من كل المحاولات. إننا ننتظر ذلك بفارغ الصبر، وبإذن الله سننجح في القريب العاجل.


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## Josh_

Another verb you could use to express the idea of having children is خلّف but I'm not sure how common it is in MSA.  I've only heard it in colloquial settings.


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## ayed

cherine said:


> Ayed's version is excellent  but allow me a couple or remarks:
> 
> - When I read نخلق أطفالاً I went   You know, Andrew, that only God can create babies (and all other creatures for that matter). So, beware with the use of this verb
> 
> - Although Ayed's ننجب أطفالاً is perfectly correct, I think the word الإنجاب is enough. So, we can say: نحاول الإنجاب .
> 
> Here's another suggestion for the wording of this sentence:
> 
> أنا و زوجتي نحاول الإنجاب منذ زفافنا، ولكن لم ننجح بالرغم من كل المحاولات. إننا ننتظر ذلك بفارغ الصبر، وبإذن الله سننجح في القريب العاجل.


 Good another version, Cherine!
If I modified"أن ننجب"to"إنجاب" , Andrew may see the former is wrong and the latter is the correct version.So, I left it as it is as long as it is correct.


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## cherine

I see you point, Ayed. You're right.

Josh, "yekhallef" with the meaning of having babies is only used in colloquial. The verb "akhalaf" means "to leave behind", "khalaf" is "to come after", hence الخليفة is the sovereign who follows another one. الخلفاء الراشدون the rules who came after the prophet Muhammad.


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## elroy

I would not say منذ زفافنا but منذ زواجنا because a زفاف is a Moslem wedding (Christians use the word عرس) whereas زواج just means "marriage."


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## cherine

Actually, I was going to use "zawaaj" myself, but hesitated because in many families the zawaaj comes days, weeks or months before az-zifaaf.
But you're right of course. Besides, I think it should be understood that they won't be trying to have babies before that


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## elroy

cherine said:


> Actually, I was going to use "zawaaj" myself, but hesitated because in many families the zawaaj comes days, weeks or months before az-zifaaf.


 Oh, really?  I had no idea!  So what is your status if you have had a "zawaaj" (which is what exactly?) but not a "zifaaf"?

Also, do Moslems use the word "3urs"?  If so and if it is synonymous with "zifaaf," then we could use منذ يوم عرسنا here.


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## cherine

In Egypt, marriage sometimes takes too many steps (in my humble opinions).
There used to be: خطوبة (engagement) then فرح (wedding).

Now... there's قراءة الفاتحة (sort of an official agreement -another one- between the two families), then الخطوبة when the bridegroom offers his bride الشبكة (a gift in gold -or diamond, depending on his and his bride's economic and social status). Usually قراءة الفاتحة (we say it erayet el fat7a) is a small family gathering at the bride's house, while الخطوبة is a more of a big party, either in a hall قاعة احتفالات or -again- at the bride's house.
Then, there's كتب الكتاب or عقد القران where the marriage contract is signed.
Then, at last, comes the الزفاف or الدخلة (ed-dokhla) which is the wedding ceremony itself.
The period between each step and the other varies from a couple to another. Sometimes it takes years to move from قراءة الفاتحة to الدخلة !

I should note that not all families follow this long detailed steps, many of them have the كتب الكتاب and الدخلة in the same day, the الشبكة and الخطوبة in the same day.

So, back to the point at hand. As I said, some families don't have الزفاف in the same day as the كتب الكتاب (where the couple are "technically" married, but they're not allowed to ermmm live together, have a علاقة زوجية . Actually, it can be considered as a scandal if it turns out that they had it before ed-dokhla). I think this answers your first question.

As for the second. The word "3urs" is not used in Egypt, we use "zifaaf" in written, and fara7 فرح in spoken. For example:
"My friend invited me to her wedding" is صاحبتي عزمتني على فرحها
While a "wedding invitation" is written as: دعوة لحضور حفل زفاف 

But using منذ يوم عرسنا is of course correct in MSA. Another version would be منذ يوم زفافنا.


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## Mahaodeh

cherine said:


> I see you point, Ayed. You're right.
> 
> Josh, "yekhallef" with the meaning of having babies is only used in colloquial. The verb "akhalaf" means "to leave behind", "khalaf" is "to come after", hence الخليفة is the sovereign who follows another one. الخلفاء الراشدون the rules who came after the prophet Muhammad.


 
Just a small note, khallafa خَلَّف literally means to leave behind, it may be used for children metaphorically in fus7a, but it's usually used when talking about leaving children behind after death.


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## Andrew___

cherine said:


> - When I read نخلق أطفالاً I went   You know, Andrew, that only God can create babies (and all other creatures for that matter). So, beware with the use of this verb



Thanks Cherine for that tip!  Maybe that is the reason that: *"**بالرغم من كل محاولاتنا, لم ننجح**" *


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## Josh_

cherine said:


> I see you point, Ayed. You're right.
> 
> Josh, "yekhallef" with the meaning of having babies is only used in colloquial. The verb "akhalaf" means "to leave behind", "khalaf" is "to come after", hence الخليفة is the sovereign who follows another one. الخلفاء الراشدون the rules who came after the prophet Muhammad.


Thanks.  That's what I suspected but was not sure.  It does seem to occur a small number of times (when searching on Google), but it must be with the meaning of leaving children behind when one dies, as Mahaodeh said.



elroy said:


> I would not say منذ زفافنا but منذ زواجنا because a زفاف is a Moslem wedding (Christians use the word عرس) whereas زواج just means "marriage."


I don't know how widespread the usage of عرس is among Muslims, but it does seem to occur.  I know two Iraqi families who have had family members get married and they used the word.  I once watched a video about yemeni customs and the word was used.  The clip was on a DVD that came with one of my textbooks.  I'll reference it and get back.


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## ayed

elroy said:


> (Christians use the word عرس)


 So do we , Elroy !
(*)Colloquially talking :
*ما جا عليهم صيب من يوم أعرسوا*
*ماجا عليهم أحد من يوم خذاها*


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## cherine

I think I have to say that Egyptian Christians don't use the word 3urs either.
The Christian word used in Egypt is ikliil إكليل (the engagement is noS ekliil نص إكليل).

Some years ago, Egyptian Christians started having wedding ceremonies in halls, like the Muslims (before that, it was only the ceremony in the church, now the have this party after church) and they call it فرح أو زفاف just like the Muslims do.
So the difference in terminology between Muslims and Christians is in the religious ceremonies only عقد قران/كتب كتاب for Muslims and إكليل for Christians. (Unless of course there are other terms that I haven't heard before).

P.S. The word 3urs is perfectly acceptable for both religions, it's just that we don't use it (at least not often) in my country.


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## elroy

I remember discussing all the different words for "wedding" and "marriage" in a previous thread.  I think what's relevant to our context here is the following statement: 





cherine said:


> P.S. The word 3urs is perfectly acceptable for both religions, it's just that we don't use it (at least not often) in my country.


 Since it is acceptable *in MSA* regardless of religion, I think it is the most appropriate word to use here.  

Colloquial Arabic is a different matter.   Just for fun, why don't we compile translations in different dialects.  I'll start with Palestinian:

.أنا ومرتي إلنا من يوم ما تجوزنا عم منجرب نجيب ولاد، بس بعدها مش زابطة معانا بالرغم من كل محاولانتا.  هينا صابرين وإن شاء الله ننال منانا بالمستقبل القريب
(_Ana wmarati ilna min yoom matjawwazna 3am minjarreb injiib iwlaad, bas ba3idha mish zaabTa ma3aana bir-raghem min kul mu7aawalaatna.  Hayna Saabriin winshaalla 'n-naal munaana bilmusta2bal il2ariib._)


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## cherine

elroy said:


> I remember discussing all the different words for "wedding" and "marriage" in a previous thread.


Same feeling here. 


> Just for fun, why don't we compile translations in different dialects.


Nice idea 
Here's my try with Egyptian:


Al Sulhafa said:


> _My wife and I have been trying to have children since the day of our marriage. However, despite all our attempts we have not succeeded. We are patiently waiting for this, and God willing we will succeed in the near future._




 أنا ومراتي بنحاول نخلّف من يوم ما اتجوزنا، بس لسة مافيش نصيب/لسة ربنا ما أرادش. أدينا صابرين، وإن شاء الله ربنا يكرمنا قريّب

ana we mraati ben7aawel nekhallef men yom matgawwezna, bas lessa mafish naSiib/lessa rabbena ma aradsh. Adiin Sabriin, wenshaa2 Allah rabbena yekremna orayyeb.

This is a quite loose translation, I tried to use the commonly used expressions. Although I hesitated with بنحاول نخلف because it's not exactly what people would say, but rather نفسنا نخلف nefsena nkhallef.​


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## Mahaodeh

In Iraq:

أني ومرتي دنحاول نخلّف/نجيب جهال من يوم ما عرّسنا/تزوجنا، بس قد ما نحاول ماكو فايدة، هيّاتنا صابرين وإن شاء الله الله يفرجها علينا

ani w-marti dan7awil nkhalluf/njeeb jihaal min youm ma 3arrassna/tzawajjna, bas gadd ma n7awil maku fayda, hayyatna Sabreen winshalla alla yifrijha 3alaine.

In Iraq, they do use the word عرس and never فرح; they also use the verb عرَّس for getting married.


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## cherine

Mahaodeh said:


> In Iraq, they do use the word عرس and never فرح; they also use the verb عرَّس for getting married.


I'm sorry if I'm getting off-topic, but I thought I should let you guys know that this verb has a totally different (and bad) meaning in Egypt. So beware if you're thinking about using it here.


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## ayed

cherine said:


> I'm sorry if I'm getting off-topic, but I thought I should let you guys know that this verb has a totally different (and bad) meaning in Egypt. So beware if you're thinking about using it here.


  Arabic learners are exceptions , Cherine !


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## Andrew___

I am told that in the Moroccan dialect it is:

*بغيت أنا و مرتي نولدوا دراري منين وحنا تزوجنا ، ولكن ماقدرناش، واخا حاولنا  ، كنسايوا نديروا الدراري و غادي نجحوا ان شاء الله 

*Good luck with this one.
Andrew


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## elroy

cherine said:


> I'm sorry if I'm getting off-topic, but I thought I should let you guys know that this verb has a totally different (and bad) meaning in Egypt. So beware if you're thinking about using it here.


 Same in Palestinian Arabic!  Except that it's pronounced with a ص sound at the end.  I don't know if the pronunciation of the Iraqi verb Maha referred to is identical.


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## Haroon

cherine said:


> I'm sorry if I'm getting off-topic, but I thought I should let you guys know that this verb has a totally different (and bad) meaning in Egypt. So beware if you're thinking about using it here.


 
Hi Cherine :                                    You should not be so alarmed as the word also has positive meaning also which is ( 1 the part that , or ) 2 protect ,make a shield ( esp from fire ) in domestic oven in countryside , Delta .Sorry to be off-topic


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## Mahaodeh

elroy said:


> Same in Palestinian Arabic! Except that it's pronounced with a ص sound at the end. I don't know if the pronunciation of the Iraqi verb Maha referred to is identical.


 
No, in Iraq it is a clear سين and is derived for the root for wedding. The verb عرّص is not used in Iraq at all up to my knowledge, but the noun عَرَصَة is used with the same meaning as in fus7a; i.e., the land on which a building is built (not an empty plot of land).


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## londonmasri

Josh_ said:


> Another verb you could use to express the idea of having children is خلّف


 


cherine said:


> Josh, "yekhallef" with the meaning of having babies is only used in colloquial


 


cherine said:


> Here's my try with Egyptian:
> 
> أنا ومراتي بنحاول نخلّف من يوم ما اتجوزنا، بس لسة مافيش نصيب/لسة ربنا ما أرادش. أدينا صابرين، وإن شاء الله ربنا يكرمنا قريّب
> 
> 
> This is a quite loose translation, I tried to use the commonly used expressions. Although I hesitated with بنحاول نخلف because it's not exactly what people would say, but rather نفسنا نخلف nefsena nkhallef.​


 
Would you say the best translation for yekhallaf is 'to concieve' e.g. _nefsena_-_n_-_khallaf_ = we are trying to conceive (?)

_humma_ _bey7awloo_ _yekhallafoo_ - they are trying to conceive (more commonly expressed as 'they are trying for children').

Also, would this sound strange? 
_humma_ _gahzeen_ _yekhallafoo_ (they feel ready to have children)

Many thanks.


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## Ghabi

londonmasri said:


> Would you say the best translation for yekhallaf is 'to concieve' e.g. _nefsena_-_n_-_khallaf_ = we are trying to conceive (?)



You need a native to confirm, but my gut feeling is that _5allif_ means "to be parents", not "to conceive". In English it's still inconceivable that "a man conceives", while in Arabic a man can _5allif_ ("has become a father").


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## cherine

I agree with G.
I can't think of an Arabic equivalent for "to conceive". نخلف means "to have children".


londonmasri said:


> Would you say the best translation for yekhallaf is 'to concieve' e.g. _nefsena_-_n_-_khallaf_ = we are trying to conceive (?)


It means we hope we can have children.


> _humma_ _bey7awloo_ _yekhallafoo_ - they are trying to conceive (more commonly expressed as 'they are trying for children').
> 
> Also, would this sound strange?
> _humma_ _gahzeen_ _yekhallafoo_ (they feel ready to have children)


Frankly, both sound a bit strange to me. Maybe in an -almost- scientific context they can be ok, like a couple receiving fertility treatment بيحاولوا يخلفوا and when the treatment is done they're جاهزين يخلفوا or جاهزين للخلفة (gahziin lelkhelfa).


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## londonmasri

Thanks for this!


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