# the importance of these new discoveries



## Saley

I’m gonna break my tradition and ask a question about a phrase.

In the chapter about demonstrative pronouns Karin Ryding [p. 318] gives the following example and translates it (her examples are chiefly form Arabic newspapers):

أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ هذه
the importance of these new discoveries
I wonder why هذه is placed in the end.

To my knowledge, the demonstrative in this position is to be interpreted as modifying the whole iDaafah construction:

{ أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ } هذه = this { importance of the new discoveries }
In order to modify only the noun phrase الاكتشافات الحديثة, the pronoun should stand before it:

أهمّيّة هذه { الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ } = the importance of these { new discoveries }
What am I missing?


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## elroy

هذه الاكتشافات الحديثة and الاكتشافات الحديثة هذه are both correct.  There is a slight difference in nuance:

هذه الاكتشافات الحديثة: these discoveries, which are modern
الكتشافات الحديثة هذه: *these* modern discoveries, not those other ones

Strictly speaking, أهمية الاكتشافات الحديثة هذه is ambiguous because, as you say, هذه could refer to أهمية, but that's a highly unlikely reading due to two things: distance (هذه is too far from أهمية to be readily associated with it) and plausibility ("this importance, that importance"? ).


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## Saley

elroy said:


> هذه الاكتشافات الحديثة: these discoveries, which are modern
> الكتشافات الحديثة هذه: *these* modern discoveries, not those other ones


Ah, I understood: in the first of your phrases هذه الاكتشافات is a single unit modified with the adjective الحديثة, and in the second one الكتشافات الحديثة is a single unit modified with the demonstrative هذه.




The textbooks I use didn’t talk about the structure of the second type, so before your explanation I could parse the original phrase only in one of the possible ways.

Then can I make the following statements?

If a demonstrative modifies a noun with the article, the former _always_ precedes the latter (e.g. هذا الرجل, not الرجل هذا).
If a demonstrative modifies any other kind of phrase (i.e. a noun without the article or a multi-word phrase), the demonstrative _always_ follows it.
I know I can; I mean, is each of them correct?


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## elroy

Saley said:


> in the first of your phrases هذه الاكتشافات is a single unit modified with the adjective الحديثة, and in the second one الكتشافات الحديثة is a single unit modified with the demonstrative هذه.


 That sounds about right, yes. 


Saley said:


> If a demonstrative modifies a noun with the article, the former _always_ precedes the latter (e.g. هذا الرجل, not الرجل هذا).


 No, الرجل هذا is correct too. 


Saley said:


> If a demonstrative modifies any other kind of phrase (i.e. a noun without the article or a multi-word phrase), the demonstrative _always_ follows it.


 Can you give an example of a demonstrative + noun without the article?

Multi-word phrase: No.

As our example here shows, if it's a noun + adjective the demonstrative can come before or after.
If it's a genitive construction, the demonstrative has to come after: معلم التاريخ هذا vs. *هذا معلم التاريخ.


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## Saley

elroy said:


> No, الرجل هذا is correct too.


Can الرجل هذا mean ‘this man’? I’m not talking about the sentence الرجل هذا where الرجل is the subject and هذا is the predicate.


> Can you give an example of a demonstrative + noun without the article?


محمّد هذا = this Muhammad
كتبي هذه = these my books (but I’d rather regard كتبي as a kind of iDaafa)


> Multi-word phrase: No.
> 
> As our example here shows, if it's a noun + adjective the demonstrative can come before or after.


But as my first parse tree shows, the noun and the adjective don’t constitute a noun phrase when the demonstrative comes before.


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## elroy

Saley said:


> Can الرجل هذا mean ‘this man’?


 Yes. 


Saley said:


> I’m not talking about the sentence الرجل هذا where الرجل is the subject and هذا is the predicate.


 That would be a very unnatural construction (if it's even correct). 


Saley said:


> محمّد هذا = this Muhammad
> كتبي هذه = these my books


 Yes, in both of those cases the demonstrative has to come after. 


Saley said:


> But as my first parse tree shows, the noun and the adjective don’t constitute a noun phrase when the demonstrative comes before.


 Hm, I'm not sure that's true.

هذه الاكتشافات الحديثة can definitely be understood as هذه [الاكتشافات الحديثة], just without any particular emphasis on هذه.


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## Saley

Is الرجل هذا a common construction and is it somehow different in meaning from هذا الرجل?


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## I.K.S.

Saley said:


> I’m gonna break my tradition and ask a question about a phrase.
> 
> In the chapter about demonstrative pronouns Karin Ryding [p. 318] gives the following example and translates it (her examples are chiefly form Arabic newspapers):
> 
> أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ هذه
> the importance of these new discoveries
> I wonder why هذه is placed in the end.
> 
> To my knowledge, the demonstrative in this position is to be interpreted as modifying the whole iDaafah construction:
> 
> { أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ } هذه = this { importance of the new discoveries }
> In order to modify only the noun phrase الاكتشافات الحديثة, the pronoun should stand before it:
> 
> أهمّيّة هذه { الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ } = the importance of these { new discoveries }
> What am I missing?


You are perfectly true ,yes as the subtitle of the chapter is talking about the suffixed possessive pronouns ,the author wanted to quote some examples where the noun shouldn't be preceded by a demonstrative pronoun ,in her example : أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ هذه ,the demonstrative pronoun هذه is referring to أهمّيّة ,which is definite by الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ
Thus ,the correct translation is the one you gave of course : this importance of the new discoveries.
ps : among the above-mentioned examples in the same page, there is : تجربتي الاولى هذه it can be preceded by the demonstrative as in : هذه تجربتي الاولى and it works as a small clause ,the author should have added more context (idaafa) to make it fit in with the other examples ; saying من خلال تجربتي الاولى هذه for instance .


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## elroy

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> in her example : أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ هذه ,the demonstrative pronoun هذه is referring to أهمّيّة ,which is definite by الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ
> Thus ,the correct translation is the one you gave of course : this importance of the new discoveries.


 "This importance of the new discoveries" doesn't make sense in English.  Are you sure هذه goes with أهمّيّة?  


إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> تجربتي الاولى هذه it can be preceded by the demonstrative as in : هذه تجربتي الاولى


 Are you saying these two have the same meaning?


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## Mahaodeh

elroy said:


> "This importance of the new discoveries" doesn't make sense in English. Are you sure هذه goes with أهمّيّة?



'This importance of the new discoveries' can make sense depending on context. If you were talking about the importance before it, it might make perfect sense.

However,



إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> in her example : أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ هذه ,the demonstrative pronoun هذه is referring to أهمّيّة



In the page in question, under the Arabic the English translation is: The importance of these new discoveries. This doesn't seem to match the other examples or the subject they are talking about.

I believe this is simply a bad example, and it's probably why Saley was confused. I'd have to agree with elroy on this one, without previous context I would understand هذه as referring to الاكتشافات الحديثة. If I (personally) wanted to refer to أهمية I would probably have changed the whole sentence to avoid confusion. Some Arabic sentences can be a bit confusing and frankly when you think about it, it could refer to either.



elroy said:


> Are you saying these two have the same meaning?



I'm wondering about this too. I find that there is a difference.
تجربتي الأولى هذه to me means: this first experience of mine. It's not a complete sentence and needs more to become complete (example: تجربتي الأولى هذه كانت ناجحة).
هذه تجربتي الأولى to me means: this is my first experience. It's a complete sentence and can stand alone.


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## I.K.S.

Mahaodeh said:


> I believe this is simply a bad example, and it's probably why Saley was confused. I'd have to agree with elroy on this one, without previous context I would understand هذه as referring to الاكتشافات الحديثة.


The example is not exemplary but it's not bad too ,it is the translation that was misleading ,the sentence is incomplete for sure and there's been a context ,we should not forget these examples are basically quotes from newspapers and novels ..,let's analyze it a bit ...the position of الاكتشافات  within ali3ab is مضاف اليه and مضاف
,the الاكتشافات الحديثة "possesses" أهمية ,the same way the هو= هاء possesses كتاب in the other example : كتابه هذا  ,..would هذا(which is عطف بيان) refer to كتاب or the هاء ?  ,we can apply the same grammatical logic on this example too , in an alternative way ,as a suffixed possessive pronoun we can say : أهميتها هذه ,there's only one way to understand it according to the demonstrative's position ,to make it more clear ,let's add more context to the expression ,saying : 
,  أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ هذه ملفتة للانتباه as you can notice the demonstrative will always refer to أهمّيّة  as long as it's not preceding الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ


elroy said:


> Are you saying these two have the same meaning?


yes ,think about it as a response :
A : كم مرة كررت التجربة؟
B : هذه تجربتي الاولى or تجربتي الاولى هذه
...and It totally depends on the context .


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## Saley

elroy, if we drop the adjective in the original phrase, how will it be interpreted?

أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ هذه
Will هذه refer to أهمّيّة (= this importance) and you’ll consider the phrase semantically wrong, or will it still refer to الاكتشافات (= these discoveries)?

I looked into other books and didn’t find any examples of the postpositive use of a demonstrative with a noun phrase other than iDaafah or <iDaafah + adjective>. I mean, these books don’t describe constructions like الرجل هذا ‘this man’ and الرجل السعيد هذا ‘this happy man’ (at least in chapters about demonstratives). So I’d like to know if they are common; are they preferred over هذا الرجل and هذا الرجل السعيد in some situations?

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية, I understand your analogy with كتابه هذا, I was thinking the same way.


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## elroy

Mahaodeh said:


> If I (personally) wanted to refer to أهمية I would probably have changed the whole sentence to avoid confusion.


 Me too. 


إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ هذه ملفتة للانتباه


 I would say هذه الأهمية للاكتشافات الحديثة.


إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> as you can notice the demonstrative will always refer to أهمّيّة as long as it's not preceding الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ


 Always?  Are you saying that هذه in أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ هذه *cannot* refer to الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ?


إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> yes ,think about it as a response :
> A : كم مرة كررت التجربة؟
> B : هذه تجربتي الاولى or تجربتي الاولى هذه


 We're not talking about complete sentences here!  We're talking about phrases.  تجربتي الاولى هذه is the way to say "this first experience of mine."  هذه تجربتي الاولى doesn't work _with that meaning_.  It is a complete sentence meaning "This is my first experience."


Saley said:


> elroy, if we drop the adjective in the original phrase, how will it be interpreted?
> 
> أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ هذه


 My intuitive reading of this is "the importance of these discoveries," but this could be an English influence (see below)!

Both possibilities are grammatically correct, though.

I agree that this is a terrible example because "this importance" is just not a likely thing to say!  So our judgments are colored by plausibility.  A better example would be something like أخو المدير هذا, where both readings ("this brother of the manager's" and "this manager's brother") are equally plausible.  They are also both grammatically correct, so native speakers interpret them based on context and syntactic preferences (generally, Arabic native speakers prefer high attachment to low attachment, meaning the preferred reading would be "this brother of the manager's").


Saley said:


> I mean, these books don’t describe constructions like الرجل هذا ‘this man’ and الرجل السعيد هذا ‘this happy man’ (at least in chapters about demonstratives). So I’d like to know if they are common; are they preferred over هذا الرجل and هذا الرجل السعيد in some situations?


 I would say الرجل هذا is not too common, and الرجل السعيد هذا is more common.  As for whether they'd be preferred in certain situations, I think that's hard to answer without specific examples, and also, we're talking about nuances (see my first post) so it might be difficult to get a clear answer to this question.


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## Mahaodeh

إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> The example is not exemplary but it's not bad too ,it is the translation that was misleading ,the sentence is incomplete for sure and there's been a context ,we should not forget these examples are basically quotes from newspapers and novels ..,let's analyze it a bit ...the position of الاكتشافات within ali3ab is مضاف اليه and مضاف
> ,the الاكتشافات الحديثة "possesses" أهمية ,the same way the هو= هاء possesses كتاب in the other example : كتابه هذا ,..would هذا(which is عطف بيان) refer to كتاب or the هاء ? ,we can apply the same grammatical logic on this example too , in an alternative way ,as a suffixed possessive pronoun we can say : أهميتها هذه ,there's only one way to understand it according to the demonstrative's position ,to make it more clear ,let's add more context to the expression ,saying :
> , أهمّيّة الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ هذه ملفتة للانتباه as you can notice the demonstrative will always refer to أهمّيّة as long as it's not preceding الاكتشافاتِ الحديثةِ


You do realise that I said "without previous context" (I wrote previous but I meant further or more context, sorry). I agree that with more context it can be understood as referring to أهمية. The same can apply to كتابه هذا had there not been a pronoun - the pronoun automatically implies that the person in question is already known and hence we don't need to refer to him again; but, had it been كتاب الرجل هذا then without further context we would automatically understand that هذا refers to الرجل and not كتاب because we automatically link it with the closest fitting noun, in these two cases they would be الرجل and الاكتشافات الحديثة.

This is my point.


elroy said:


> I agree that this is a terrible example because "this importance" is just not a likely thing to say!





إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> yes ,think about it as a response :
> A : كم مرة كررت التجربة؟
> B : هذه تجربتي الاولى or تجربتي الاولى هذه
> ...and It totally depends on the context .


Actually, I believe that I would answer with هذه تجربتي الأولى. I would not even think of saying تجربتي الأولى هذه and would find it very strange if anyone gave such an answer. I would obviously know what is meant because the context is quite clear but I find that تأخير المبتدأ here has no logical reason.


elroy said:


> My intuitive reading of this is "the importance of these discoveries," but this could be an English influence


Is it and English influence? I don't think so. I think it's because you usually just link it with the last fitting noun unless there is more context that makes you understand otherwise.


elroy said:


> I would say الرجل هذا is not too common, and الرجل السعيد هذا is more common.


Why do you think that one is more common than the other? I think it depends on what one wants to say. I don't see any one of them more common than the other.

P.S. Sorry for the multiple posts. I didn't mean it but there is something wrong with my mouse today and it keeps clicking on things by itself and I'm having a hard time controlling it


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## elroy

Mahaodeh said:


> Actually, I believe that I would answer with هذه تجربتي الأولى. I would not even think of saying تجربتي الأولى هذه and would find it very strange if anyone gave such an answer. I would obviously know what is meant because the context is quite clear but I find that تأخير المبتدأ here has no logical reason.


 Good point, but either way, this is tangential to the topic of this thread. 


Mahaodeh said:


> Is it and English influence? I don't think so. I think it's because you usually just link it with the last fitting noun unless there is more context that makes you understand otherwise.


 You might be influenced by English too.   As I said, generally studies show that Arabic native speakers prefer high attachment (but this is not set in stone of course!). 


Mahaodeh said:


> Why do you think that one is more common than the other?


 I just think we're less likely to post-position هذا when we have just a single-word noun, as opposed to a more complex noun phrase.  But I could be wrong, and maybe I'm influenced by the fact that genitive constructions (which consist of more than one word most of the time) require post-positioning.


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## Saley

Thank you all for your help! With your explanations and examples I understand this construction better now. Special thanks to elroy for having introduced the concept of high/low attachment to me. Don’t hesitate to use technical terms I may be unfamiliar with; I’m always eager to expand my horizons.

And just one more question. We agreed that both هذه الاكتشافات الحديثة and الاكتشافات الحديثة هذه are correct. What about the third possibility?

الاكتشافات هذه الحديثة
Is it a valid construction?


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## elroy

Hmmm... I think it could work as an apposition, as in, “these discoveries, the modern ones.”


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