# polite you



## Qcumber

Hello J
Forgive me if this was already dealt with somewhere else, but I just can’t find the thread.
 
According to Adam JACOT DE BOINOD (_The meaning of tingo_, 2005, 2007:4), the second person pronouns for the singular – masc. 2anta أَنْتَ, fem. 2anti أَنْتِ – are replaced by the second person plural masculine 2antum أَنْتُمْ, to address a person with respect. That would then be the exact equivalent of the polite *vous* in French. 
 
Is this true?


----------



## Zaeem

yes that's true but I don't usually hear it between people. It is used to address someone important like a leader, a school principle and a head of a company.


I am not sure about it in other countries.

example:
 أرجُ من حضرتكم قبول دعوتي لحضور الحفل 


more questions are welcomed


----------



## abusaf

> أرجُو من حضرتكم قبول دعوتي لحضور الحفل


----------



## Qcumber

Do you think it's due to the influence of French in 19th century?
This happened in the Philippines after the opening of the Suez Canal. The Tagalogs who lived in France for several years, started using* kayó* "you pl." back home instead of *ká* "you sg." as a polite form of address, a usage that didn't exist before as far as I know. (I am not a native speaker of Tagalog.)


----------



## Josh_

I am taking a business Arabic class this semester and this is one of the things we have learned about.  You would use the plural you as a polite form in composing an application for a job, for example.  You could also use it when interviewing for a job in which you would most likely be speaking in MSA. 

As for as the origin of this usage I have no idea.


----------



## MarcB

Qcumber said:


> Do you think it's due to the influence of French in 19th century?
> This happened in the Philippines after the opening of the Suez Canal. The Tagalogs who lived in France for several years, started using* kayó* "you pl." back home instead of *ká* "you sg." as a polite form of address, a usage that didn't exist before as far as I know. (I am not a native speaker of Tagalog.)


 I spoke to some tagalog friends they say kayo is not (currently anyway) used like this edit: I was told it is deep Tagalog.Back to Arabic:
See This correspondence and this 
Quote:Abusaf
أرجُو من حضرتكم قبول دعوتي لحضور الحفل 
sometimes just حضرتك .


----------



## Zaeem

my mistake.
sorry all.


yes it is present verb  فعل مضارع 

so, it should be:  أرجو 

الإعراب
أرجو: فعل مضارع مرفوع و علامة رفعه الضمة المقدرة على الواو منع من ظهورها الثقل.


----------



## Qcumber

MarcB said:


> I spoke to some tagalog friends they say kayo is not (currently anyway) used like this.


See this.
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=2445772&posted=1#post2445772


----------



## cherine

There was a somewhat similar thread, titled صيغة الاحترام I think it may be relevant to this thread.


----------



## Abu Rashid

Qcumber,



> Do you think it's due to the influence of French in 19th century?



Actually it's a fairly common concept in the Arabic language. Throughout the Qur'an for instance, God constantly refers to himself as "We", and I think it's quite common in all Semitic languages, the Bible having something similar in its original Hebrew form.


----------



## Qcumber

cherine said:


> There was a somewhat similar thread, titled صيغة الاحترام I think it may be relevant to this thread.


Thanks a lot, Cherine, but it's too hard for me. Maybe there should be an Arabic-Arabic forum and an Arabic-English one.


----------



## Qcumber

Abu Rashid said:


> Qcumber,
> Actually it's a fairly common concept in the Arabic language. Throughout the Qur'an for instance, God constantly refers to himself as "We", and I think it's quite common in all Semitic languages, the Bible having something similar in its original Hebrew form.


I'm afraid "you" and "we" are definitely opposite concepts. The particular usage of "we" you mention doesn't imply that plural "you" will be used for the singular to express respect.
Do you have occurrences of plural "you" comparable to that of French "_vous_"?


----------



## Abu Rashid

Well it does indicate that pronouns are used in a plural form for a singular target, which shows us the concept definitely exists.

How about as-salaamu alaykum the common Islamic greeting?


----------



## Qcumber

Abu Rashid said:


> How about as-salaamu alaykum the common Islamic greeting?


I thought this case was well-known.
A Muslim greets another with this formula because he addresses the other Muslim and the two angels that accompany him, hence the plural.


----------



## Qcumber

Abu Rashid said:


> Well it does indicate that pronouns are used in a plural form for a singular target, which shows us the concept definitely exists.


It doesn't. In linguistics, you can't generalize like that. You have to prove it by finding occurrences of the three persons in this usage. What applies to the first person, doesn't necessarily apply to the others.


----------



## Abu Rashid

Qcumber,



> A Muslim greets another with this formula because he addresses the other Muslim and the two angels that accompany him, hence the plural



Are you sure about that? I've never seen any reference for this, I think it is perhaps just speculation.


----------



## Qcumber

Abu Rashid said:


> Are you sure about that? I've never seen any reference for this, I think it is perhaps just speculation.


I think I was taught this about half a century ago by an Algerian Islamic scholar (ulema). I also remember seeing it mentioned in a book. Sorry, Abu Rashid, I have no reference at hand. For me it belongs to general culture.

He also taught me the masculine plural is always used because the two angels are males. Even if you add the human, and even if the human is a woman, the grammatical rule has it that the masculine is used.

I am sure learned forumites will come up with the right reference.


----------



## Abu Rashid

> about half a century ago by an Algerian Islamic scholar (ulema)



Actually I think you mean 3alim (3ulema is plural).

I'm not saying this isn't the case, I have also read it in Islamic books, but unless there's a verse from the Qur'an or a hadith verifying it, then it really doesn't have much basis, and would only be considered a suggestion or speculation of the 3ulema, which really isn't enough to include it in this discussion.

Also, if this were the case, then one would suppose a Muslim should greet a non-Muslim with as-salaamu 3alakuma, using the dual form, as he'd still be addressing the two angels.



> He also taught me the masculine plural is always used because the two angels are males.



I don't think this is correct. As far as I'm aware, angels do not have gender, but often in the Qur'an the female gender is used, like "Qalat al-Mala'ika".



> I am sure learned forumites will come up with the right reference



I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to be more sure about my own claims before making them public, rather than just asserting things willy nilly and then hoping someone else will back me up.


----------



## Anatoli

How about "HaDritak/ik" (حضرتك)? Is it too colloquial? I think it's used as a polite version of "you". This word is used in textbooks for MSA as well.

---
If I am not mistaken, it is Egyptian, in Levantine it's  HaD*ir*tak/ik"


----------



## Nikola

Anatoli said:


> How about "HaDritak/ik" (حضرتك)? Is it too colloquial? I think it's used as a polite version of "you". This word is used in textbooks for MSA as well.
> 
> ---
> If I am not mistaken, it is Egyptian, in Levantine it's HaD*ir*tak/ik"


See posts 2 and 3 for pl and 5 for حضرتك singular.


----------



## Abu Rashid

I think the problem with حضرتك is that it's not found in older texts, perhaps it is. Anyway what we need here is examples from earlier Arabic texts, which would indicate this was in use prior to contact with the French.


----------



## Qcumber

Abu Rashid said:


> Actually I think you mean 3alim (3ulema is plural).


Yes I know. They were called this way in French, even for the singular. It was an official title.


----------



## Qcumber

Abu Rashid, you wrote this previously:
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Abu Rashid* 

 
Are you sure about that? I've never seen any reference for this, I think it is perhaps just speculation.


Now you write this:


Abu Rashid said:


> I have also read it in Islamic books, but unless there's a verse from the Qur'an or a hadith verifying it, then it really doesn't have much basis, and would only be considered a suggestion or speculation of the 3ulema, which really isn't enough to include it in this discussion.


Well, you said it yourself.


----------



## Qcumber

Abu Rashid said:


> I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to be more sure about my own claims before making them public, rather than just asserting things willy nilly and then hoping someone else will back me up.


Nobody compels you to accept what I say.
Thank you for your criticism.


----------



## Qcumber

Abu Rashid said:


> Also, if this were the case, then one would suppose a Muslim should greet a non-Muslim with as-salaamu 3alakuma, using the dual form, as he'd still be addressing the two angels.


2 angels + 1 person = 3 individuals hence the plural, not the dual


----------



## Abu Rashid

> Well, you said it yourself



When you're prepared to read the rest of the sentence, perhaps you can claim to be contributing to this discussion. As mentioned, speculation and suggestions by Scholars do not make it so. They are simply offering their view on what it *could possibly* mean.


----------



## Abu Rashid

> 2 angels + 1 person = 3 individuals hence the plural, not the dual



A Muslim does not initiate a greeting of salam to a non-Muslim, hence this statement of mine.


----------



## Qcumber

Abu Rashid said:


> I don't think this is correct. As far as I'm aware, angels do not have gender, but often in the Qur'an the female gender is used, like "Qalat al-Mala'ika".


mal2ak(un) > malak(un) is the singular
malaa2ik(u) & malaa2ikat(un) are the plurals


----------



## Zaeem

I don’t want to get into religion discussions, but to clarify a point that discussed above. In Islam (and maybe in other religions too), angles have no gender.

*But* in the case of Arabic language:
the singular form malak مَلـَك is masculine.
the plural form mala2ikah ملائكة is feminine.


----------



## Abu Rashid

This is correct Zaeem, like all other non-Human things, the plural is treated as female.


----------



## Qcumber

Josh Adkins said:


> I am taking a business Arabic class this semester and this is one of the things we have learned about. You would use the plural you as a polite form in composing an application for a job, for example. You could also use it when interviewing for a job in which you would most likely be speaking in MSA.


I suppose you have to use the second person plural form of the verb in the same context.

This usage must be fairly modern because in Kalila wa Dimna, only the second person masculine singular (pronouns, verbs, etc.) is used to address a king or a lion (the king of the animal kingdom).


----------



## Josh_

Qcumber said:


> I suppose you have to use the second person plural form of the verb in the same context.
> 
> This usage must be fairly modern because in Kalila wa Dimna, only the second person masculine singular (pronouns, verbs, etc.) is used to address a king or a lion (the king of the animal kingdom).


Yes, you would use the second person plural.  I 'd be interested in knowing the origin of this phenomenon as well, but unfortunately I do not know.


----------

