# homosexual, gay, lesbian



## Qittat Ulthar

I have found in a dictionary شاذ جنسيا for homosexual; is this a common use, is it derogatory?


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## M-Pink

yes it is common.

But what may sound more derogatory is مُخنث or لوطي


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## Qittat Ulthar

Should I assume there is no "politically correct" or neutral way to talk about homosexuality?


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## M-Pink

no! you can use شاذ جنسياً for homosexual ..if you want to talk about homosexuality( الشذوذ الجنسي).. it would not be derogatory

Literally:
شاذ is exceptional or irregular
and
جنسياً is sexual
Homosexual is مثلي الجنس

مخنث is effeminate or womanlike

and لوطي is  gay


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## clevermizo

Qittat Ulthar said:


> Should I assume there is no "politically correct" or neutral way to talk about homosexuality?



You are correct; there is not. شاذّ can be considered derogatory because it is also used in the context of 'pervert' and perversion. مثلي الجنس was invented to be a quasi neutral term and is a calque of the English _homosexual_. It is gaining use, but this depends heavily on the media source, the country and environment.


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## cherine

Yes, the new politically correct term is mithliyy مثلي (plural: mithliyyuun/mithliyyiin) مثليين and it's becoming a bit common, though not -yet?- as common as شاذ جنسيًا , but I'm not sure if everyone would understand it, specially that it's usually مثلي and not مثلي الجنس .

شاذ جنسيًا per se is not derogatory. I think it depends on the context and the general tone used to tell if it's meant as a neutral or derogatory term.


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## Xence

M-Pink said:


> مخنث is effeminate or womanlike


 
I would also add _transgender_, _transsexual_, _transvestite_.


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
I am interested in learning how the various dialects express this and similar words, such as Lesbian.  Because of cultural and religious reasons, I am aware that this is not a frequent or open topic of conversation, and that many words and expressions are undoubtedly derogatory, but nonetheless it would be good to know a neutral way to express this identity.


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## clevermizo

The neutral, politically correct word used nowadays is مثلي/مثلية/مثليون جنسيًا which is more or less a calque of the word "homosexual". Most other words are derogatory because homosexuality is generally viewed negatively in Arabic-speaking countries.


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## إسكندراني

I don't think مثلي is understood in Egypt. And yes, any word used would be derogatory. The most common word to my ear is شاذ , homosexuality being شذوذ جنسي. I don't think I've ever heard the word 'lesbian' be mentioned in any Arabic context. Perhaps the most interesting word I've come across is لوطي and though not used in Egypt I expect it would be understood there.


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## rayloom

مثلي mithliy from "mithl" which means "like, same".
شاذ or شاذ جنسيا as in abnormal, sexually abnormal.
These 2 are the most neutral. Also they are modern terms.

Other terms are:
لوطي luuTiy (from Lot, the prophet of Sodom and Gomorrah, referring to the actions of his people) means gay (for a male).
سحاقية siHaaqiyyah means lesbian. It's derived from the root s7q (one of its meanings is to grind).
These terms are moderately offensive. Also they are older terms.

There are more offensive words which I'll leave out for now


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## TheArabicStudent

طنط is used to mean gay in Jordan.  The plural is طنطات.


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## Josh_

الشذوذ الجنسي may be one of the more neutral  terms out there, but it is not completely neutral. The meaning of the root  ش-ذ-ذ has to do with the idea of deviance, abnormality, aberrant behavior, so the term still has negative connotations attached to it. I think the most neutral  term is المثلية الجنسية as the root م-ث-ل merely has to do with the idea likeness.  

  المساحقة comes from the root س-ح-ق, which has, among other meanings, to do with  grinding or rubbing, as previously mentioned.  Applied to lesbians probably in reference to a certain sexual practice. A more accurate translation for the term might be 'tribadism' or  'tribady', but of course, by extension, lesbianism in general.   

Speaking of calques, I have wondered if this term was a calque from the  Greek _τριβάς_ (tribas) (whence we get the English terms), taken during the Islamic Golden Age when Greek  works were translated into Arabic.  I know that there were medieval Arabs who wrote about sex and various sexual practices, including lesbianism and male homosexuality.  One such work is "جوامع اللذة" by the medieval Arab writer أبو الحسن علي بن نصرالكاتب.  Apparently this work has even been translated into English as "The Encyclopedia of Pleasure" see here.


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## cherine

إسكندراني said:


> I don't think مثلي is understood in Egypt.


The words مثلي، المثلية are only used in written (as far as I know), and have become quite common in newspapers as a literal meaning and equivalent of a neutral word. Those who have some level of general knowledge can easily understand it, at least from context. But I agree with you that not everyone would.


> I don't think I've ever heard the word 'lesbian' be mentioned in any Arabic context.


It is used and understood by anyone who has some knowledge of a foreign word. I think the words "gay" and "lesbian" are becoming common, at least among educated people. They're used in the middle of Arabic sentences, just like we use "merci", "hi", "bye"...etc.


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## CZAREK

TheArabicStudent said:


> طنط is used to mean gay in Jordan. The plural is طنطات.


I heard  Syrian one( but I am not sure how is it written exactly).

مخنط=mkhannaT.

Salaam,
Czarek


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## Ghabi

CZAREK said:


> I heard  Syrian one( but I am not sure how is it written exactly).
> 
> مخنط=mkhannaT.


I guess you mean مخنث? I don't know whether this one is as offensive as that خ word, since it's also a biological term (hermaphrodite?) ...


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

cherine said:


> It is used and understood by anyone who has some knowledge of a foreign word. I think the words "gay" and "lesbian" are becoming common, at least among educated people. They're used in the middle of Arabic sentences, just like we use "merci", "hi", "bye"...etc.



This is interesting.  So some people may use the English words gay, lesbian, etc?  That sounds so much better than "luti" ;0


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## kifaru

There are colloquial words used in the homosexual communities. This blog 
http://lesbiantomboy.blogspot.com/2010/01/blog-post_6839.html
is written by a homosexual in the UAE. She discusses terms they use amongst themselves. I had some difficulty making out what was written so maybe you will need some translation help.


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## xebonyx

The word "شاذ" as I've seen translated has usually been to describe perverseness or more simply put, a "pervert". 

Of course the best word to use is not only determined by common usage but also by politics, society, and most of all, the community itself which is constantly providing new words which they feel adequately describes their identity. For example, an observer or common person may use مخنث for  "hermaphrodite" while those in the community may say "intersex". However, due to whatever associations that word may have had in the past they may opt for a transliteration or a multi-word phrase which most accurately describes the identity.

The link kifaru provided seems to be transliterations of English words lesbian (ليزبيان), bisexual (بايسكشوال), and boi (called "boya" here) - بويا, as you could with any of the words, ie. "إنترسكس"(intersex).


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## إسكندراني

TheArabicStudent said:


> طنط is used to mean gay in Jordan.  The plural is طنطات.



That's so unfortunate! In Libya طانطات means 'trucks'!


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## arbelyoni

What about khawal? I think it's pretty common in Cairo, is it considered offensive?


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## clevermizo

arbelyoni said:


> What about khawal? I think it's pretty common in Cairo, is it considered offensive?



Yes it is. (Originally meant a male dancer.)


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## cherine

I didn't know its origin. But it's more than offensive, it's an insult. It can mean "homosexual" and it can mean a person who is not man enough, not a real man.


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## clevermizo

Yes, according to what I know _khawāl_ originally referred to a man who danced رقص شرقي, especially in the 19th century and in the days before Gamal Abdel Nasser, when this practice was more common. When this practice in general was becoming more frowned upon, the word became associated with someone who was "less of a man" and became the insult it is today.


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## Josh_

Zeevdovtarnegolet said:


> cherine said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is used and understood by anyone who has some knowledge of a foreign word. I think the words "gay" and "lesbian" are becoming common, at least among educated people. They're used in the middle of Arabic sentences, just like we use "merci", "hi", "bye"...etc.
> 
> 
> 
> This is interesting. So some people may use the English words gay, lesbian, etc? That sounds so much better than "luti" ;0
Click to expand...

I also find it interesting when foreign with negative meanings, such as swear words, and words with with uncomfortable associations (to some people), such as gay and lesbian, are used in languages. In addition to English swear words being used in Arabic at times, I know Hebrew also Arabic swear words and probably English as well.

I have wondered if this phenomenon has to do with "second language distance," for lack of better term. That is, one can say a word with a negative meaning in a non-native language and it will not be felt the same way, or as intensely, as the equivalent word in the native language, since all the emotion attached to the foreign word is not present, having not grown up with it. Hopefully that makes sense -- I'm having trouble expressing myself today.

For example, I can say the word  خرا in Arabic, but it does not feel as powerful to me as saying the word "shit" in English. Likewise, I have been called the word منحط (munHaTT) before, but it did not hurt my feelings as much as being called "a degenerate" would have in English, since I am removed from the Arabic word.


clevermizo said:


> Yes, according to what I know _khawāl_ originally referred to a man who danced رقص شرقي, especially in the 19th century and in the days before Gamal Abdel Nasser, when this practice was more common. When this practice in general was becoming more frowned upon, the word became associated with someone who was "less of a man" and became the insult it is today.


The word as used in Egyptian Arabic is خَوَل (pronounced _khawal_) not خَوَال (_khawaal_/_khawāl_ ; I assume you are using the _ā_ with the line over it to represent the long a).

The meaning may have come to mean male dancer, but the original meaning was "one's slaves, servants, and/or other dependents." From Lisan Al-Arab:

وخَوَلُ الرجلِ: حَشَمُه،
and
والخَوَل العبيد والإِماءُ وغيرهم من الحاشية،

Apparently it was a collective noun, but could also refer to one, so could also mean just "a slave/servant."

I can see a (loose) connection, though, between this meaning and both a dancer and homosexual man/passive male sexual partner in that I imagine some male slaves were required to perform these tasks at times for slave masters who may have had homosexual tendencies. That may be the path the word traveled to reach its current meaning in the Egyptian dialect. Who knows. Just more surmising on my part.

At any rate, خول reminded me of another word. I don't think it refers it means a homosexual man, per se, but just a man who is effeminate, or not man enough. The word is خيخة (_khiikha_).

This is also a pejorative term, as far as I'm aware, not to be used lightly.


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## clevermizo

Josh_ said:


> The word as used in Egyptian Arabic is خَوَل (pronounced _khawal_) not خَوَال (_khawaal_/_khawāl_ ; I assume you are using the _ā_ with the line over it to represent the long a).



No, I just goofed. For some reason I thought it was خوال. Thanks for that.


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## Ayazid

I have also found the term علق in Egyptian Arabic, but I am not sure in  what way its meaning differs from خول ... but both of these words are  clearly insulting.


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## hiba

xebonyx said:


> The word "شاذ" as I've seen translated has usually been to describe perverseness or more simply put, a "pervert".
> 
> Of course the best word to use is not only determined by common usage but also by politics, society, and most of all, the community itself which is constantly providing new words which they feel adequately describes their identity. For example, an observer or common person may use مخنث for "hermaphrodite" while those in the community may say "intersex". However, due to whatever associations that word may have had in the past they may opt for a transliteration or a multi-word phrase which most accurately describes the identity.
> 
> The link kifaru provided seems to be transliterations of English words lesbian (ليزبيان), bisexual (بايسكشوال), and boi (called "boya" here) - بويا, as you could with any of the words, ie. "إنترسكس"(intersex).


 
Here in Qatar  بوية  (plural بويات) is used to describe lesbians. From what I've been told it's taken from English "boy" and then the ta'marbuta is added to make it feminine, making something like "girl-boy".


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## xebonyx

Yes, it's the same in English and American culture hence why I used the term "boi" (a "masculine" female). I was just pointing them out separately.


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## germanloge

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
I study Film and Cinema production and I'm currently writing about "Homosexuality in the Islam". I want to get all the facts right. From what I have read the concept of homosexuality doesn't really exist and is more about who is the passive and who the active partner. According to my research, only the passive partner will get punish by the Shariah. A *Manyak/Mnyakah or Kulampara *(in Turkish) is the active partner, while a *maf’ul or ma’bun* is the passive partner. In turkish is it call an *ibne*, from arabic *ubna*. A *Lūṭiyy لوطي *(people of Lot, from the bible) is the one that gets penetrated during *liwat* (anal sex). The *Mukhannathun مخنثون mukhannath* the effeminate ones, are not regarded as homosexuals. Is this word (definition) correct or do you have a better one, linguistically speaking? Would you please help me translate these concepts. Thanks a lot


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## Ghabi

Besides the above discussions, there is a relevant article ("Liwāṭ") in _EI2_ if you have online or printed access to it.


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## WannaBFluent

TheArabicStudent said:


> طنط is used to mean gay in Jordan.  The plural is طنطات.


I've heard طنطة in Syria, said to a gay male.
Probably just a coïncidence but in French, we have a word to say gay (sodomite) "tante" (that also means aunt) and its more familiar derivative tantouze. 

They sound like the Arabic طنط، طنطة.


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## analeeh

WannaBFluent said:


> I've heard طنطة in Syria, said to a gay male.
> Probably just a coïncidence but in French, we have a word to say gay (sodomite) "tante" (that also means aunt) and its more familiar derivative tantouze.
> 
> They sound like the Arabic طنط، طنطة.



I don't think it's a coincidence, I think it's a direct borrowing.

I've never heard طنطة, only طنط. Either way, it's an offensive term.


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