# Without/ ohne/ zonder



## ThomasK

How do you translate the preposition *'without' *in your language? Do you use that word or that root in other words ? And does it somehow behave in a special way? 



Dutch: _*zonder *_> *bijzonder*, special ; _*uitzondering*_, exception ; *afzonderen/-ing*, (put in) isolation, quarantaine, ... 
 We cannot say *_daarzonder _(without that), or it is a little awkward at least

German: *ohne  *BUT there is _Sonder_-, special, _sondern_, but (after negation), ... 

English: *without *BUT there is still _asunder, _to pieces, apart, ...


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## Maroseika

Russian - без (bez). 
It is widely used also as a prepostion, usually translated in Enlish as un-.
Без relates to Ancient-Prussian bhe (without), Ancient-Indian bahíṣ  (beyond) and bahir-dhā (outside).
But in Russian there is absolutely no trace of the "asunder" sense.


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## ThomasK

I see. But I suppose you mean it is used as a preposition (_without money_), and a prefix (_un-ambiguous_).

I just asked Google Translate to render 'without unambiguous words and unsafe bases' and it gives : "*без* однозначных слов и не*без*опасных базы".

It does use the без as you said (but apparently there is one alternative un- as well).


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

1/ Preposition «χωρίς» /xo'ris/ lit. _without_. From Classical adverb «χωρίς» (xō'rīs)--> _separately, apart_; PIE base *gʰē-, _be empty, to leave._
2/ Preposition «δίχως» /'ðixos/ lit. _without_. From Classical adverb «διχῶς» (dī'xōs)--> _doubly, in two ways_; PIE base *dwi-/*dwei-, _two_. 
In Modern Greek «χωρίς» & «δίχως» are used interchangeably.


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## ancalimon

In Turkish:

Tuzlu: Salty   Tuz*suz*: without salt.
mutlu: happy   mut*suz*: unhappy
paralı: rich (with money)   para*sız*: poor (without money)
acılı: spicy, hot   acı*sız*: not hot


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## LilianaB

It is *be* in Lithuanian. There are words in which _be_ appears as a prefix. Beasmeniskumas - without personality, impersonal. Asmeniskumas is personality. Bebaimis - fearless. Baime is fear. There are many others.


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## ThomasK

Do you really have two withouts in Greek, Apmoy?
It is like a suffix, Ancalimon, or is it a postposition? But how do you say 'without milk and sugar' ? the same way ? 

The funny thing is that is never a pre- or suffix in Dutch...


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Do you really have two withouts in Greek, Apmoy?


Yep, developed from two completely different roots. One could say that «δίχως» sounds a bit bookish nowadays


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## DearPrudence

In *French*, we use the preposition "*sans*", even for things like "*sugar free*" 
(from Latin "sine"?
→*
Spanish*: *sin*
*Italian*: *senza
Catalan*: *sense *(?))


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## ancalimon

ThomasK said:


> Do you really have two withouts in Greek, Apmoy?
> It is like a suffix, Ancalimon, or is it a postposition? But how do you say 'without milk and sugar' ? the same way ?
> 
> The funny thing is that is never a pre- or suffix in Dutch...



I think it's a suffix. Yes we mostly use this form:

Without milk and sugar : sütsüz ve şekersiz

But we can also say:

Süt ve şeker "olmasın". (roughly> ("Make it lack" milk and sugar))
ol:be
olmak: to be
olma: the action of being
olma: not be


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## francisgranada

Hungarian:

*nélkül *(postposition) - without
Composed from _nél _("at, by") and _kül _("out, outer, the outer part", not used separately)
E.g. Víz nélkül - Without water 

-*telen*/-*talan *- without, -less
E.g. víztelen - without water, waterless 

*-mentes -* without, free of ...
E.g. vízmentes - free of water


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## AutumnOwl

_*Swedish:*_
_utan_ - without, for example: _utan barn _- without children; _utan skor_ - without shoes; _utan pengar_ - without money
_-lös_ - suffix for without, for example: _barnlös _- without children; _skolös_ - without shoes; _formlös_ - without shape

_Utan_ is used for example when someone has children/shoes/money etc and is without it now, while _-lös_ is used more when there is a lack of it.
_Hon kom utan sina barn - she came without her children
Hon är barnlös - she doesn't have any children_

(Swedish have _sönder/söndra_ but it doesn't mean without, _gå sönder_ = fall apart; _söndra_ = separate)


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## catlady60

English tends to use prefixes and suffixes to express the absence of something.

Suffixes to describe "without":
-less = without
childless = without children (offspring)
penniless = without a penny to one's name

Examples: 
_The childless couple wants to adopt a child.
I was left penniless because of an expensive hospital stay that wiped out all my savings (Sadly, the American health care system is expensive and the individual is left to pay for the hospital and doctors out of their own pockets)._

The modifier "free" is also used to describe "without", but that's when you don't want the (noun) added to begin with.

_I bought sugar-free soda/pop/fizzy drink at the supermarket for $1.35.
This is a smoke-free restaurant.  If you want a cigarette, please go outside to smoke.

_The most common prefix in English to denote "without" is -un.
unscented = without added fragrance or perfume
unprecedented = without precedent

_I have to buy unscented cat litter because my cat don't like the smell of perfume.

_You can also say "minus" as an informal synonym for "without."

_It started to rain and I'm minus my umbrella.  I know I'm going to get soaked._


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## tFighterPilot

Hebrew:
Bli - Without. Can be used in pretty much any context
Lelo - Can only be used right before the word. For example: Lelo sukar = without sugar.
Ḥasar - Used for living followed by a word no construct an adjective. For example: Ḥasar de'agot = someone who has no worries.
Al - Usually means "don't" as in "don't smoke" (al te'ashen) but can rarely means "-less", as in the word stainless - alḥeled.


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## mataripis

In Tagalog it is "Wala"(none)(without). 1.) walang asukal= without sugar. but if you say,2.) pls do not put sugar= Wag mo lang lagyan ng asukal.(wag= don't)3.) Sugar excluded= labas ang asukal./hindi kasama ang asukal.


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## jana.bo99

Slovenian: 

Without: brez
(Ne morem živeti brez denarja - I can't live without money)

Croatian: bez 

There is only this word.


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## arielipi

@tfighter
Al can also function as [do not need]... e.g. alkhut means something that doesnt need a cable: like a cellphone - doesnt need a cable, so it could be called ... alkhuti.
Also theres the word bilti that funcs as a denial of something: if you have a variant in some equation and that variant doesnt change results its bilti taluy - meaning its not changing anything.
There are other numerous forms with the root B-L-H/Y and some other rare words


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*:
- ilman + PARTITIVE (etymologically linked to _ilma_ 'air', don't ask how!)
- PARTITIVE + vailla (rare)
- abessive case (ending _-ttA_), rare with nouns but frequently used with verbs to mean "without doing sth"
- the suffix _-tOn_, corresponding to the Swedish _-lös_; can sometimes be used with verbs

_Hän tuli ilman lapsiaan_. He came without his children.
_Mies vailla menneisyyttä_. (_The Man without a Past_, the film by Kaurismäki)
_Kukaan ei voi elää syömättä._ No one can live without eating.
_Joka kuritta kasvaa, se kunniatta kuolee._ Who grows without discipline, dies without honour.
_Serkkuni on vapaaehtoisesti lapseton_. My cousin is voluntarily childless.
_Tämä on savuton hotelli. _This is a smoke-free hotel.
_Olen voittamaton_. I'm invincible.


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## Outsider

In Portuguese the preposition is *sem *(<L. _sine_).

You can't use it as an affix. For that we usually employ Latin (_i(n)_-) or Greek (_a_(_n_)-) prefixes. You can build compounds like *sem nome*, «nameless/no-name/without a name», but here *sem* remains an independent word.


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## 涼宮

Hello Thomask! You haven't gotten Japanese perhaps  for a long time 

*Japanese*

It's not exactly that they behave in a weird way, but from the point of view of other languages, they are certainly weird. In Japanese, you have several ways to say _without _depending on if the next word is a verb or a noun. They have no relationship with other words.

With verbs:

*1st way*: you conjugate the verbs to the form -_zu (ni)_. To do that you must first conjugate the verb to its negative form, drop the -_nai_ ending and add -_zu_.
Example: 行く _iku_ to go > 行かない _ikanai_ > 行かず _ikazu_ = without going.

*2nd way*: negative form +で _de_. This form is usually used to tell someone not to do something, which is tantamount to the imperative form in other languages but in Japanese it is not the imperative. 

Example:
食べないで学校へ行った _tabenaide gakkou he itta_. I went to school without eating. 
*
3rd way*: infinitive + ことなく _koto naku_. Literally _no existing the thing of_... 

警察が墜落事故の原因を昼夜休むことなく調査している。 _keisatsu ga tsuirakujiko no gen'in wo chouya yasumu koto naku chousa shiteiru_. The police are investigating the cause of the crash around the clock. (without resting) 

With nouns: 

You use なし _nashi_ or なしで _nashide_. The latter goes in the middle of a sentence.

彼女は、傘なしで出かけてしまった _kanojo wa kasa nashide dekaketeshimatta_. She left without her umbrella. 

このドキュメントは名前なし。_ kono dokyumento wa namae nashi_. This document is anonymous. (lit: nameless)

I hope it was interesting


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## ThomasK

Indeed, I almost had - and I am looking forward to the Korean answer as well. (_I will only be able to go into it tomorrow evening or a little later ! Thanks though !)

_One question: does it look like a suffix rather than a pre- or postposition? Or doesn't Japanese have those categories?


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## 涼宮

Actually Japanese uses particles and not postpositions or prepositions. Although I don't know myself the difference among particles and those 2. ことなく _kotonaku_ is an adverb, -_zu_ is a conjugation/auxiliary. _なしnashi_ is a suffix and で is a particle. Japanese is a very suffixal language.


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## ThomasK

I see ! It reminds me - vaguely though - of what you wrote regarding possibility, I believe (i am sorry, but I do not remember now); that was very special. Thanks again !


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## ThomasK

I now suddenly think: in many cases there is no real preposition, so it seems. That seems interesting to me as we do not do something similar with 'with', I think. I do know '-less' and all those equivalents, but I guess that is the marked _pendant _unmarked _with (with _is the 'more natural' situation, I mean_). O_r is there a language that can express something like _*a work-having man/woman *?_ [*a work-with man/ woman *-- so an adjective expressing that a man has work, as we can say _werk-loos_/ work-less]. 

I think we will say something like _gesuikerd _('sugared', a past participle based on _suikeren_, a verb). I suppose there are simply no suffixes meaning 'including', only lexical means like 'including'.


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## darush

bi or bedune in Persian
cholesterol free-----> bedune kolesterol
without salt-------->  bi namak
nameles----------->   bi naam


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## ThomasK

So two prepositions, I guess... Do you use it as a regular pronoun, and/or do you use it as part of as the root of other words (verbs) ?


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## darush

thoes(bi and bedune) are single words or prefixes not root of other words or verbs.
baa: with
bi: without


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## ThomasK

Is the change of stem vowel very common in Persian, Darush? Does this suggest that 'with' and 'without' are linked indeed? (Do you have similar prepositions ?) Do 'be' and 'baa' behave in the same way as all prepositions ?


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## Nizo

The Esperanto word for _without_ is _*sen*_, which is similar to the French _sans_, Italian _senza_, Spanish _sin_, and Portuguese _sem_.  It is very frequently used as a prefix:  _senbarba_ (beardless), _senaga_ (ageless), _senhonta_ (shameless), _sensignifa_ (meaningless, insignificant), _sendependa_ (independent), etc.


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## darush

Hi Thomask
B appears in some Persian prepositions:
be: to
baraaye:for
bahre: for (again)
besuye: towards  
besuye= be+suy+e; _su_ or _suy _means direction


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## ThomasK

Would you say the b- has any special (common) meaning, Darush ? I thought I saw something like direction in these examples (moving towards).


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## darush

b has not a spesific meaning as a simple word, but, as a I mentioned before it appeares in some Persian prepositions and I have no idea for that( for the appearence of b) 
there was only on example for direction(towards) and its expantion: besuye= towards
some other prepositions 
dar: in
darbaare: about; darbaareye man: about me
bar: over 
zire: under
az: from
ruye: on


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## ThomasK

I see, Darush, I was mistaken. Thanks !


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