# يا (vocative particle)



## elroy

walkerw8 said:


> why the use of:
> 
> 
> *يا *(yaa)?
> 
> What does that indicate?


 Hello, Walker, and welcome to the Arabic forum. 

يا is a vocative particle, rather like the archaic "O" in English.


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## suma

elroy said:


> يا is a vocative particle, rather like the archaic "O" in English.


 
But used much more frequently in Arabic, without sounding a bit strange or archaic as it tends to sound in English.


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## Abu Bishr

Hi Guys

I was just thinking. The vocative يا in Arabic is a bit like "Hey" in English e.g. Hey John, Hey Jack, Hey You, etc. I think this is the closest we can get to يا in modern day spoken English. Classical Arabs also used أَيْ as a vocative particle amongst others and sounds quite close to "Hey" in English. However, the "Hey" in English comes across as stronger than the يا . The يا can also be interpreted as a particle for calling someone's attention (للتنبيه) much like ها in Arabic relative pronouns.This is especially the case when used before لَيْتَ (How I wish) e.g. يا ليتَني ذاكرتُ للامتحان (Oh, How I wish I had studied for the exams!)


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## elroy

Abu Bishr said:


> I was just thinking. The vocative يا in Arabic is a bit like "Hey" in English e.g. Hey John, Hey Jack, Hey You, etc.


 I would disagree with this only because "hey" is always informal and colloquial while يا is not.  In fact, in my dialect we do not use it much at all - and when we do it's not necessarily as informal as "hey."

Moderator's Note:
Because this discussion is getting more and more elaborate, I am splitting it off and making it its own thread.


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## cherine

I agree, but we can't translate the يا to "hey" in all contexts. It would sound strange to say "welcome back hey X", we'd rather say (in an archaic context) "welcome back o X).

Edit : this was an answer to Abu Bishr's post.


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## Abu Bishr

Hi Everyone

My equating يا with "Hey" was merely to hunt for other options in English besides "O". I'm aware of the fallacy of equivalence in translation i.e. a word in the target language often does not convey all the possible meanings of the word in the source language. A case in point is the definite article (ال) in Arabic which cannot always be translated as "the" in English but even so it does preclude "the" being an equivalent for (ال) . Another example is house and home both of which is translated as البيت , and the difference between "house" and "home" does not seem to come across in Arabic, unless we try and make it more personal by saying بيتي (my house).

Nevertheless, I do recognize that "Hey" is more colloquial and informal than يا and it might be that it is more a particle of interjection like "Hey! What are you doing there?!" which is the same as حرف التنبيه (a particle for calling someone's attention) in Arabic.

Anyhow, it was just a thought as I had mentioned earlier the purpose of which was to look for other options besides "O" which is how it is translated in most cases.

The question is can it serve as an equivalent for يا no matter how remote the possibility bearing in mind also that يا can also srve as a حرف التنبيه , classically, that is similar to "Hey".


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## linguist786

In English translations of du3aas (supplications, praying to God), the vocative particle is always translated as "O". So يا الله is always translated as "O Allah!"

Just thought I'd add that.


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## walkerw8

Interesting discussion. This is such a fascinating language to me. 

My next question then, based on the discussion, it seems 
that  *يا *can be used in either formal or informal settings, no? I understand that maybe it isn't used frequently in all dialects, but in cases where it is used commonly or not, is it appropriate to use it for any and all situations when addressing another person in your presence?? 

Additionally, does *يا *take on a different form when the person being addressed is female versus male? 

Shukran!


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## elroy

As I said earlier, in my dialect (Palestinian Arabic) it's not used on a regular basis.  It is used in particular circumstances - with commands ("ta3aal ya 3ali" sounds better than "ta3aal 3ali" - which is not incorrect), for humorous or light-hearted effect ("shu bitsawwi hoon ya 3ali?"), in fixed expressions ("ya Allah!" is used to express exasperation or disgust), to strengthen a call (you might say "Ya 3ali!" if you've already called him three times and he hasn't answered) - and is not used very frequently, if at all, just to address someone.  That said, I would advise you to avoid it in colloquial speech if you just wish to address somebody normally, and to start picking up on its other uses as you gain more familiarity with the language.  I should add that it does seem to me that it's used most often in more informal settings. 

There is no separate form for a feminine object.


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## Abu Bishr

> walkerw8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, does *يا *take on a different form when the person being addressed is female versus male?
Click to expand...

 
No, يا does not take on a different form depending on the gender of the addressee except in one case, when it is followed by أيُّها (Ayyuhaa) for then  we say يا أيها (Yaa Ayyuhaa) for a male and يا أَيَّتُها (Yaa Ayyatuhaa) for a female. However, these two forms are used in very restricted situations (1) in formal addresses and (2) when the noun that the addressee is addressed by has the definite article (ال) prefixed to it e.g. 

يا أيها الطلاَّب
يا أيتها الطالبات
يا أيها الذين آمنوا
يا أيها الناس
يا أيتها النفس
(the last three are from the Quran)

But as you can see يا itself does not change but rather the extension أيها which changes to أيتها . Anyhow, this form  is not used in colloquial Arabic to the best of my knowledge but I've heard it occasionally been used in MSA.


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## Nunty

elroy said:


> As I said earlier, in my dialect (Palestinian Arabic) it's not used on a regular basis.  It is used in particular circumstances - with commands ("ta3aal ya 3ali" sounds better than "ta3aal 3ali" - which is not incorrect), for humorous or light-hearted effect ("shu bitsawwi hoon ya 3ali?"), in fixed expressions ("ya Allah!" is used to express exasperation or disgust), to strengthen a call (you might say "Ya 3ali!" if you've already called him three times and he hasn't answered) - and is not used very frequently, if at all, just to address someone.  That said, I would advise you to avoid it in colloquial speech if you just wish to address somebody normally, and to start picking up on its other uses as you gain more familiarity with the language.  I should add that it does seem to me that it's used most often in more informal settings.
> 
> There is no separate form for a feminine object.


I'd like to revive and hijack this discussion for a moment, please, because I'm only now beginning to be able to form  sentences that I can actually address to someone.

Elroy says that in Palestinian Arabic, his dialect, which is also the one I am learning,  يا is not used on a regular basis and he advises us neophytes to avoid it. I wonder why that is: could it be taken as insulting, patronizing? For instance, just this morning I spoke to a lady who works with us and sometimes helps me with Arabic. I said "saba7 alkhir ya Georgette". Should I have just said her name? Is the situation more delicate because of the employee-employer relationship between us?

I should add that my teacher uses it rather frequently in class to call on some one: "tbi7ki, ya ukhti!"

"ya Allah" I know because we borrow it in Hebrew and use it in the same way.

Thanks for the precisions.



P.S. Please correct my transliterations, and if you want to put them into Arabic, I'll be very grateful.


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## elroy

Nun-Translator said:


> I wonder why that is: could it be taken as insulting, patronizing?


 Not at all. What I meant to say was that beginners should avoid using it _at first_ until they've gotten familiar with the different contexts in which it is most commonly used. But the effects of using it atypically are not grave: at worst it will sound a little off but not insulting in the least. 


> For instance, just this morning I spoke to a lady who works with us and sometimes helps me with Arabic. I said "saba7 alkhir ya Georgette".


 In that context it's perfectly fine.

Correction: sabaa7 il-kheer (صباح الخير)


> Should I have just said her name?


 You could have, but it wouldn't have made much of a difference, pragmatically speaking.


> I should add that my teacher uses it rather frequently in class to call on some one: "tbi7ki, ya ukhti!"


 Do you mean "i7ki" (إحكي) as in "speak"? What you have written is not a word.

As I said earlier, it's fairly common to use it after a short (usually one-word) command.

In certain contexts, it's commonly used after the frequent command "tfaDDal(i/u)" (تفضل/تفضلي/تفضلوا). I trust you are familiar with this wonderful word. 

I think the rule of thumb is that generally you shouldn't just use it to call someone. It sounds more natural in combination with other words.

It also occurs to me that it's generally not used if it's obvious who the addressee is, unless you wish to add a certain (usually humorous or affectionate) effect. For example, if I answered my door and you were there by yourself, it would be unusual for me to use it to welcome you in. I might, however, use your name by itself. 

As with a lot of these things, a lot depends on the tone of voice as well.


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## Nunty

Thank you, Elroy, for the explanations and -- especially -- the corrections.

(Much of what I say in Arabic are not actually words. Sigh. But practice and correction make perfect!)


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## linguist786

I hope it's OK to ask this question here.

I remember this being touched on in another thread (which I can't find now!) the use of "yaallaah" by natives. Firstly, what does it mean? (how is it used?) And secondly, where is it said? Because I heard it often in Morocco, and cherine said it's used in Egypt, and I also heard elroy saying it once


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## elroy

linguist786 said:


> [...] and I also heard elroy saying it once


 Did you?    I hope you didn't think ill of me because of it.  

As I said above, it's used to express exasperation or disgust.

You could say it if you arrive at the train station only to find out that you just missed your train...
...or if your lose an argument with your mother about not doing something she wants you to do...
...or if you're baby-sitting for your little nephews and they've broken yet another crystal glass...

I hope that gives you an idea.


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## linguist786

elroy said:


> As I said above, it's used to express exasperation or disgust.


Hmm.. really? It certainly didn't sound like that's what you were trying to say! And same in Morocco.. I heard it very often in just "normal" speech. I can't imagine it meaning what you said.

If I can hear you correctly, this is what you're saying:
(This is from the sound clip you sent me of you speaking Palestinian Arabic. I'll just transcribe what I think I hear!)

_bas innal kudhilu an tatakallam (_or_ tata3allam?) kama indeshe. ok yaallaah behteraa raatim, bye_

That is probably a load of.. rubbish , but it's towards the end and you're speaking very fast!


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## elroy

Ah...that's "yalla" not "ya alla"!

Although they technically have the same literal meaning, they are used very, very differently - so I'm afraid you'd have to open a new thread if you want to discuss "yalla."

(By the way, I sure hope I didn't say _that_! )


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## linguist786

elroy said:


> Ah...that's "yalla" not "ya alla"!


Well in my original post, I didn't separate the two words.. lol. (I said "yaallaah") 



> Although they technically have the same literal meaning, they are used very, very differently - so I'm afraid you'd have to open a new thread if you want to discuss "yalla."


ok. 

edit - I've found the thread I was looking for. This one



> (By the way, I sure hope I didn't say _that_! )


Yes, my transcription was rubbish . My aim was to just make you rethink it's use.. which hopefully I succeeded in


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## elroy

linguist786 said:


> Well in my original post, I didn't separate the two words.. lol. (I said "yaallaah")


 Yes, but the two _a_'s, and the fact that this thread is about يا, immediately made me think of "ya alla."  Anyway, I'm glad we've cleared things up.


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## PaulXavier

I'd like to know the meaning of "ya" when addressing someone by their name. I don't understand the difference between _ahlan_ and _ahlan ya_ —  أهلاً يا 
Several textbooks have stated that it is sometimes used "with a name." One vaguely described it by stating "_Notice the use of يا when addressing someone by name. This is common in some parts of the Arab world._" 

My questions are *why*? 
What is the difference between just saying أهلاً and adding يا after it? 
Are there social situations where يا is not appropriate? 
Is يا considered informal? 

It's confusing why a lot of textbooks gloss over this without explanation. I know that learning a language requires one to sometimes "take things on faith," but I've always believed it is imperative to at least know _what_ you're saying.


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## barkoosh

The use of يا is optional. أهلاً بول and أهلاً يا بول mean the same thing. يا has no particular connotations.


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## analeeh

I don't think it's something that will get you into trouble, just make you sound a little bit odd. Pinning down these situations is difficult and ultimately something you get a sense for by practice. elroy has given some pragmatic tips above on its use in Palestinian, though, and I'd say that goes for Shami in general.


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## PaulXavier

Ha! It has to mean _something._ Things aren't said unless there's some sort of purpose for saying it — even if usage is only based on etymology. Either way, I found a collage that explained it rather succinctly. 

From "Arabic Without Walls" (_University of California, UC Davis_):

*The Vocative Particle yaa *يا


The vocative particle indicates who is being addressed. When addressing someone, the word yaa يا may be used before the person's name. Therefore, if you want to say "hello" to your friend Fatima by name, instead of  saying "_Hello, Fatima_", you could say, "_Hello, yaa Fatima_". 

Think of yaa يا as using "O" in old English: (_Addressing Obi-Wan Kenobi_) _"How do you do, O wise one?"_


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## analeeh

Well yeah - but I interpreted your question as asking what the difference between أهلا يا فاطمة and أهلا, فاطمة is (or any other situation where you use a name as an address). The answer is that there's no big difference in meaning per se - فاطمة! can be used to call someone, just as يا فاطمة! can. But there are small pragmatic differences in usage which as I say are generally better learned through practice and imitating native speakers (though Elroy described some of the differences above).


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