# Pronunciation: 勉强



## yuechu

大家好，

I was recently watching a TV show and heard the word 勉强. The WR and Perapera dictionary suggest the pronunciation mian3qiang3. However, when I heard it today, it sounded like "mian3qiang*2*". Is this a common pronunciation? Which of the two pronunciations would you recommend?
Thanks!


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## retrogradedwithwind

It should be the third tone, and I think anyone who receives proper education would know that...

But Maybe it is a little harder to pronounce in the third tone than in the second tone... a lot of people read it as qiang2...


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## ivyp hu

mian3qiang3 is the correct one. 
But taken individually, the pronuciation for 强 is qiang2, it is only sopken "qiang3" when it is in the word "勉强"


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## yuechu

Thanks for your help, retrogradedwithwind and ivyp hu!


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## fyl

It's the 3rd tone.
强qiang3 appears in 勉强、强迫、强求、强人所难、强词夺理, etc.
This sound was one of the most surprising pronunciations I learnt from school. Before learning this I thought 强 has only one sound qiang2 and I had never heard of qiang3.
This qiang3 sound is emphasized in schools in mainland and tested in exams, so most people received education (maybe in the last 20 years) are clear with it. But in real life, people who have not received education with emphasis on "standard pronunciations" in this way will probably say qiang2.


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## reer

baosheng said:


> I was recently watching a TV show and heard the word 勉强. The WR and Perapera dictionary suggest the pronunciation mian3qiang3. However, when I heard it today, it sounded like "mian3qiang*2*". Is this a common pronunciation? Which of the two pronunciations would you recommend?


In dictionary, you will see the pinyin as mian3qiang3.  When you actually read it aloud, you need to follow one of the pronunciation rules:
33 → 23, i.e. miǎn qiǎng → mián qiǎng
Another example:  你好 nǐ hǎo → ní hǎo

As for why some people say miǎn qiáng, I guess there are two possibilities:
1. They do not know that 强 reads third tone with 勉；
2. They know 强 reads third tone with 勉, but do not know about the standard pronunciation rules, and at the same time it is awkward indeed to read 33 consecutively, so they make a personal choice to change one of the tones so that they can avoid being choked to death.  Problem is they make a wrong choice.  50% bad luck.


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## SuperXW

fyl said:


> It's the 3rd tone.
> 强qiang3 appears in 勉强、强迫、强求、强人所难、强词夺理, etc.
> This sound was one of the most surprising pronunciations I learnt from school. Before learning this I thought 强 has only one sound qiang2 and I had never heard of qiang3.
> This qiang3 sound is emphasized in schools in mainland and tested in exams, so most people received education (maybe in the last 20 years) are clear with it. But in real life, people who have not received education with emphasis on "standard pronunciations" in this way will probably say qiang2.


I have the same experience.
Nevertheless, I still use qiang2 in 强迫、强求, and quite often in 强人所难, 强词夺理. I think most people also do so.


retrogradedwithwind said:


> It should be the third tone, and I think anyone who receives proper education would know that...


I usually don't give much credibility to our "proper education". Isn't it possible that the character was initially pronounced qiang2 but later forced to change into qiang3? I hear a lot of well-educated people use qiang2, especially some elderly. Do you always pronounce qiang3 in 强迫、强求、强人所难、强词夺理?


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## retrogradedwithwind

SuperXW said:


> I usually don't give much credibility to our "proper education". Isn't it possible that the character was initially pronounced qiang2 but later forced to change into qiang3? I hear a lot of well-educated people use qiang2, especially some elderly. Do you always pronounce qiang3 in 强迫、强求、强人所难、强词夺理?


Everyone know this but doesn't do that...
强 in ancient times has the third tone.
又《廣韻》《集韻》《正韻》其兩切，彊上聲。 (養韻)
《集韻》勉也。《爾雅·釋詁》勤也。《禮·中庸》或勉強而行之。
又《韻會》矯強。《左傳·莊十九年》鬻拳強諫楚子。《荀子·臣道篇》率羣臣百吏，而相與強君曰橋君。《註》橋音矯。
又勸也。《周禮·地官》正其行，而強之道藝。《註》強，猶勸也。《禮·樂記》強而弗抑則易。《疏》師但勸強其神識，而不抑之令曉，則受者和易。


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## yuechu

I was using Google Translate today and they recommend the pronunciation mian3qiang2 (instead of mian3qiang3). I've noticed that Google Translate seems to follow the Taiwanese standard of Mandarin and not the Mainland one. Which pronunciation out of these is more common in Taiwan? Are they both common there?
Thanks to everyone for your replies!


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## darren8221

I do both, preferentially using mian3qiang3, but depending on whether it's connected to another third tone and therefore hard to pronounce.

你不要勉強(mian3qiang3 -> pronounced mian2qiang3)自己。
你不要勉強把(mian3qiang3ba3 -> pronounced mian3qiang2ba3 or mian2qiang3ba3 or even main2qiang2ba3）事情做得太完美。

The tone change of successive third tones is hard.

Regarding the usage, you will hear all of them in Taiwan.


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## ktdd

這個吧，我覺得，不必太勉強。文白異讀在漢語裡很常見。
我上小學時必考的一個詞“呆板(ai2ban3)”，到了八十年代末ai2的讀音已經從字典裡消失（我有1978年版的《現代漢語詞典》和1990年重排本的《新華字典》互相印證）。“呆板”是讀ai2ban3還是dai1ban3，高三語文課上我們還同老師探討過。結果老師說了另外一件事把我們給震了。他說他小時候“白璧微瑕”要讀bo2bi4wei1xia2。這個讀音如此之老，帶拼音的字典已經都查不到了。不過從《康熙字典》的“薄陌切，並音帛”、以及詩人李白的英譯名Li Bai/Li Bo可知確有其事。
所以我的意見是，樓主你只管按谷歌的讀，說不定十年之後qiang3的讀音就徹底消失了。通常學者是擰(ning4)不過老百姓的。只不過在字典沒改之前，考試還得按字典的來。就這麼回事。


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## fyl

In fact, google translate reads it as mian3qiang3 if you click the listen button, although it is marked as mian3qiang2. For 强迫 强求 etc, they are marked as qiang3 and the sounds are also qiang3. So it may not be following a standard.


ktdd said:


> 文白異讀在漢語裡很常見。
> 我上小學時必考的一個詞“呆板(ai2ban3)”，到了八十年代末ai2的讀音已經從字典裡消失（我有1978年版的《現代漢語詞典》和1990年重排本的《新華字典》互相印證）。“呆板”是讀ai2ban3還是dai1ban3，高三語文課上我們還同老師探討過。結果老師說了另外一件事把我們給震了。他說他小時候“白璧微瑕”要讀bo2bi4wei1xia2。這個讀音如此之老，帶拼音的字典已經都查不到了。不過從《康熙字典》的“薄陌切，並音帛”、以及詩人李白的英譯名Li Bai/Li Bo可知確有其事。


强的两个读音不能算文白异读吧。我理解的文白异读是不同的语音层次。
比如「白」，bai和bo两个读音的来源是相同的，都是同一个古音。古音在不同的方言中演变规律不同，在一些北方方言中演变为bai2，而bo2音则是从其他方言（也是从同一个古音而来）中输入的。一般来说，文读音bo2在戏曲和曲艺中非常常见，时常可听到，字典查不到那是因为普通话正音的缘故，有很多方言音都是查不到的。普通话的正音也并非全取白读音，比如学，xue是文读，xiao是白读，普通话就取了文读音。bo2和康熙字典中的反切并不是一回事。bo2是现代音，而反切代表的是古音，且须用古音来切。现代的bai2和bo2都是来自“薄陌切”（只不过bo2更符合规律一点）。
qiang3这个音的来源我不确定，但《广韵》、《集韵》中都有三个读音，似乎自古以来就是多音字。


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## Skatinginbc

For me, the underlying pronunciation for that term is always mian3qiang3 but realized as either mian2qiang3 or mian3qiang2 as a result of tone sandhi in relation to what precedes and follows that term.  If I pronounce it from a word list that does not provide any context (as does your original post), then it is mian2qiang3 like xiao2-chou3 for 小丑 (xiao3chou3) and lao2-shu3 for 老鼠 (lao3shu3).

有you3點dian3勉mian3强qiang3 ==> It can be realized as:
1) you2dian3mian2qiang3, or
2) you2dian2mian3qiang2.

PS: Yup, basically the same as what Darren has said in #10 .


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> 有you3點dian3勉mian3强qiang3 ==> It can be realized as:
> 1) you2dian3mian2qiang3, or
> 2) you2dian2mian3qiang2.


That's interesting.. Does the same also apply to 有点美好, 有点理想，有点企图？ In mainland Mandarin, 有点美好 and 有点企图 are definitely 2323，有点企图 is definitely 2332, and they cannot be realized in different ways.


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## ktdd

fyl said:


> 强的两个读音不能算文白异读吧。我理解的文白异读是不同的语音层次。


呃，我的定義是有點寬泛。你是從歷史源流來看，我主要看現狀。現實情況是，沒有接受過正規教育的人，或者受過正規教育的人稍不注意，就會把勉強讀作mian3qiang2，聽的人也不覺得有任何異樣。所以我的主要觀點是，mian3qiang3和mian3qiang2的差別，不算文讀與白讀，至少算正讀與白讀吧，這個只出現在某些特定詞語裡第三聲，目前正處在消亡的過程中。需要通過學校考試來強化就已經說明問題。
另外我同意#14裡的分析。這個應該同連續變調沒關係，就是有的人在兩個聲之間隨意切換，有的人乾脆只讀第二聲。

關於bo2的問題，我明白反切切出來的是古音，擬音大致是/bhak/。但是從“陌”與“帛”两字的現代普通話讀音來看，“白”字應當讀bo2更合理。你說因為普通話正音的緣故，我想有這個可能。但bo2應該不是地方音，很可能是作為文讀一直存在於普通話之前的官話中。我的老師講的bo2bi4wei1xia2顯然是學校/私塾裡要求的正規讀音，外國人也沒理由根據方言把李白譯作Li Po。

嗯，就想到這麼多。


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## fyl

@ktdd 你说的有道理！


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## brofeelgood

Just for the sheer heck of it, how would you guys enunciate this sentence? "李小姐有点勉强把美酒与死老鼠往嘴里挤"
323232232323233223


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## ktdd

brofeelgood said:


> Just for the sheer heck of it, how would you guys enunciate this sentence? "李小姐有点勉强把美酒与死老鼠往嘴里挤"


323 2232 3 23 2 323 4253 
Differences at 勉強 and 往. Also 李 is rendered somewhat like li2, but probably because I just read some Cantonese. 
Edit: Sorry, actually more differences found: 有點22 嘴裡25.


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## fyl

brofeelgood said:


> "李小姐有点勉强把美酒与死老鼠往嘴里挤"
> 323232232323233223


Another two ways :
323232332333233223 or
323232332233233223 (the difference is on 酒, I may either pronounce it as a 3rd tone or a lowered 2nd tone)
if I'm asked to use the dictionary sounds (i.e. 强 is 三声)


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## Skatinginbc

李3小2姐3有2点half3 close to a soft tone勉2强3把3美2酒3与half2死3老2鼠3往4嘴2里2挤3


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## darren8221

李3小2姐3有2点3勉2强2把3美2酒3与2死3老2鼠3往3嘴2里2挤3

I kind of mixed 鼠往 to 爽 so that I don't need to pronounce two third tones.


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## brofeelgood

In hindsight, that was a dumb idea. 看得我眼都花了,真是自作自受.


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## SuperXW

fyl said:


> That's interesting.. Does the same also apply to 有点美好, 有点理想，有点企图？ In mainland Mandarin, 有点美好 and 有点企图 （you meant 理想?）are definitely 2323，有点企图 is definitely 2332 (I would say 2232), and they cannot be realized in different ways.


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## Skatinginbc

有2点3企4图2 for me.


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