# Die Narben rühren von einer Kriegsverletzung her.



## Oceanboy

Hello friends,

Could anybody please help me find a less formal version of this without changing the original sense of it?

Die Narben rühren von einer Kriegsverletzung her.

Thank you so much for your help.


----------



## Piotr_WRF

From rather formal to less formal:

Die Narben stammen von einer Kriegsverletzung.
Die Narben kommen von einer Kriegsverletzung.
Die Narben sind von einer Kriegsverletzung.


----------



## elroy

Even less formal:

Die Narben hat er/sie, weil er/sie sich in einem Krieg verletzt hat.


----------



## bearded

elroy said:


> in einem Krieg


(Auch wenn man nicht weiß, in welchem Krieg): ich würde hier ein einfaches  _im Krieg _vorziehen.


----------



## elroy

That’s what I initially wrote intuitively, but then I changed it because I thought perhaps “im Krieg” could only refer to a specific war known to both interlocutors.


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> That’s what I initially wrote intuitively, but then I changed it because I thought perhaps “im Krieg” could only refer to a specific war known to both interlocutors.


_Krieg_ is understood as an abstractum here.


----------



## Hutschi

Informal and short: Die Narben hat er vom Krieg.


----------



## elroy

berndf said:


> _Krieg_ is understood as an abstractum here.


 Is this like “zum Beispiel”?


----------



## Demiurg

elroy said:


> Is this like “zum Beispiel”?


Schwer zu sagen. Das ist ein feststehender Ausdruck.

Anderes Beispiel:  _Das habe ich in der Schule gelernt._


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> Is this like “zum Beispiel”?


Yes, the definite article often marks a noun as abstract ("the war as such").


----------



## elroy

Demiurg said:


> Das habe ich in der Schule gelernt.


 This one is different, I think, because we generally assume most people have gone or are going to school.  I think that’s the reason for that definite article.  But obviously many people have not experienced war.


berndf said:


> "the war as such"


 Unfortunately that doesn’t help because “the” would not be used in English here (with or without “as such”).   Can you think of an analogous case in which English would (or at least could) use “the”?


----------



## JClaudeK

Oceanboy said:


> _Die Narben rühren von einer Kriegsverletzung her. _
> a less formal version


Colloquially you could say "Die Narben hat er sich im Krieg/ mit einer Kriegsverletzung  geholt."


----------



## Hutschi

Demiurg said:


> ...
> 
> Anderes Beispiel:  _Das habe ich in der Schule gelernt._


Note, that "der" is unstressed if the school is abstract (the school) and stressed if it is a pointer to a school (that school).


----------



## Demiurg

elroy said:


> _Das habe ich in der Schule gelernt._
> 
> 
> 
> This one is different, I think, because we generally assume most people have gone or are going to school.
Click to expand...

_Das lernt man in der Polizeischule.
Das lernt man in der Grundausbildung.
Das lernt man bei der Feuerwehr._


----------



## Sowka

elroy said:


> weil er/sie sich in einem Krieg verletzt hat.


I'd like to add that this is not quite accurate because in a war you don't hurt yourself (such as in "... weil er sich beim Brotschneiden verletzt hat".) "... weil er im Krieg verletzt wurde" would be OK.


----------



## elroy

Demiurg said:


> _Das lernt man in der Polizeischule.
> Das lernt man in der Grundausbildung.
> Das lernt man bei der Feuerwehr._


 Hm, these feel different; I would never think to use “einer” in any of them.  But okay, I think I’m slowly starting to understand the essence of “im Krieg” here.  It’s not easy, though, because it’s pretty non-intuitive (for me).

EDIT:  I think I’ve thought of a fully comparable case: beim Essen/Trinken/Spielen.  What do you think?


Sowka said:


> I'd like to add that this is not quite accurate because in a war you don't hurt yourself (such as in "... weil er sich beim Brotschneiden verletzt hat".) "... weil er im Krieg verletzt wurde" would be OK.


 Oh, I thought “ich habe mich verletzt” could mean “ich wurde verletzt”?  Does it always mean that you caused your own wound?


----------



## Sowka

elroy said:


> Does it always mean that you caused your own wound?


Yes, I think so. I can't think of any counterexample.


----------



## elroy

Hutschi said:


> if the school is abstract (the school)


 Zero article in English (“at/in school”).  “the school” always refers to a specific school.


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> Unfortunately that doesn’t help because “the” would not be used in English here (with or without “as such”).  Can you think of an analogous case in which English would (or at least could) use “the”?


No, it doesn't help if you think of it as an idiomatic English sentence. I wanted to demonstrate how German uses the definite article meaning "as such".


----------



## Hutschi

elroy said:


> Zero article in English (“at/in school”).  “the school” always refers to a specific school.


Thank you, elroy. It is a False friend. "In der Schule" is "in school".

How can I explain it properly? If I want to say that "der" is an article like "the" if "der" is unstressed in the phrase "in der Schule" in a short way? (It was difficult to build this question, hopefully it is correct enough. It becomes clumsy in order to avoid fuzzyness.)


----------



## Oceanboy

Is “rühren von” similar to rühren daher, dass...?
Should I open a new shread for this?


----------



## elroy

Hutschi said:


> How can I explain it properly?


 If “der” is unstressed, it functions as an ordinary, non-demonstrative definite article.


----------



## JClaudeK

Oceanboy said:


> Is “rühren von” similar to *rühren* da*her*, dass...?


The more common  verb ist "*her*rühren von"


> ⟨von etw., jmdm. herrühren⟩ seine Ursache in etw., jmdm. haben
> _seine Empfindlichkeit muss von einem Minderwertigkeitskomplex herrühren _



The quite elevated form "rühren von" does exist, too:


> 5. rühren
> _gehoben_ ⟨etw. rührt von etw., jmdm.⟩ etw. kommt, stammt von etw., jmdm. her
> _das rührt [=kommt] daher (= das hat seine Ursache darin), dass ..._


----------



## Oceanboy

In spoken German could“das liegt daran, dass...” be a close synonym ??

what would you suggest?

Vielen dank


----------



## Oceanboy

or just “ das kommt daher, dass...?


----------



## JClaudeK

Oceanboy said:


> could “das liegt daran, dass...” be a close synonym ??
> 
> or  “das kommt daher, dass...?


Both seem to be  fine. But it would be better to know the whole sentence.


----------



## Hutschi

elroy said:


> If “der” is unstressed, it functions as an ordinary, non-demonstrative definite article.


Thanks. I try to remember this way. (I was not aware that "the school" was wrong in the context, so thanks for the help.)


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, I want to give a kind of summary for the main theme. (The texts are mostly from other members of the discussion. I do not mark them but want to summarize.)

Die Narben rühren von einer Kriegsverletzung her. 
1. Change only verbs:

Die Narben stammen von einer Kriegsverletzung. 
Die Narben kommen von einer Kriegsverletzung.  
Die Narben sind von einer Kriegsverletzung. 
In my opinion: "herrühren, stammen" and "kommen" are neutral ragarding formality. "Sind" is more coll. style, but might be used also in formal style.

2. More changes, "Verletzung" is mostly implicit):

Die Narben hat er/sie, weil er/sie sich in einem Krieg/im Krieg verletzt hat. ("einem" indicates special war, without it is general war.)
Die Narben hat er/sie, weil er/sie im Krieg verletzt wurde.
Die Narben hat er vom Krieg.
Die Narben hat er sich im Krieg/ mit einer Kriegsverletzung geholt. (Sich etwas holen - is a kind of idiom in such context, often used colloquially).
3. Other meaning:

Die Narben hat er/sie, weil er/sie sich im Krieg verletzt hat. (He himself caused them.)


----------



## Oceanboy

Sorry, to touch on the subject again but could “bekommen” be a possibility as well??
Die Narben hat er im Krieg bekommen??

Thank you all for your input.


----------



## berndf

Yes.


----------

