# Silesian and Sorbian



## Eugeniusx

Are Silesian and Sorbian no Slavic languages?


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## Setwale_Charm

They are, both. West Slavic, that is, they must be related to Polish.


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## Eugeniusx

Hi Setwale!
You are right both are West Slavic.  Silesian is spoken in Poland and in Czechia and  from both  by far more different than e.g.  Croatian from Serbian.
Sorbian is a official language in some parts of Germany.
Therefore I do not understand why this forum does not accept them as languages.


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## Setwale_Charm

Eugeniusx said:


> Hi Setwale!
> You are right both are West Slavic. Silesian is spoken in Poland and in Czechia and from both by far more different than e.g. Croatian from Serbian.
> Sorbian is a official language in some parts of Germany.
> Therefore I do not understand why this forum does not accept them as languages.


 

I`m afraid, in this case you need to provide links to some proof of the foreros not recognising these two S as languages. 
I had a look at some samples of these languages and I must say (though may be wrong) that to me with my moderate knowledge of Polish they seem quite 'eloignes' from Polish. And there is Kashubian somewhere over there too.


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## dn88

> *Slavic Languages* Russian, Polish, Ukrainian, Czech, Serbian, Belarusian, Bulgarian, Croatian, Slovak, Bosnian, Slovenian, Macedonian


I think that Silesian or Sorbian are not listed here because they are minority languages. But asking questions concerning them (or any other minority languages) is not forbidden in this forum as far as I know.


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## Jana337

No one will move Silesian and Sorbian questions out of this forum although they are not - for pragmatic reasons -  listed in the header. There's no clear-cut border between languages and dialects (a language is a dialect with an army and navy, remember?). To forestall futile and rancorous disputes, the line has been drawn so that languages that qualify are _more or less_ recognized as such by most people. In (admittedly not so accidental) agreement with the above mentioned witticism, the selection reflects the current political reality of the Slavic world.

While Sorbian is usually considered a stand-alone language, Silesian is often denied the same privilege, which you, a self-professed learner of Silesian, surely know. Some people may have an even more inclusive definition of a language than you. However, we've also had members who would be inclined to prune the current list a bit. We can't please everyone, I am afraid.


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## Eugeniusx

Hi Jana!
Do not be afraid! Your definition of language (a language is a dialect with an army and A BORDER) is simply wrong. 
Sorbian, a language even recognized by Germany, is by far older than standard Polish or  Bosnian (whatever that is).  

Concerning my Silesian mother tongue it is clear, that you as an Czechian and Polish do not accept our language, as much as the Turkish and the Iranian regimes do not accept the Kurdish language
Inshalah!


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## Setwale_Charm

I do not quite see where the problem lies exactly. We have no specific mention of a whole bunch of Romance (Occitan, Rhaeto-Romance, Sardinian, Corsican, Ligurian etc) and Germanic (Frisian, Faroese, many dialects) languages. It is implied that the questions concerning them are still accepted within these categories. I thought you were talking of some particular statement on the forum that Silesian and Sorbian are not refused the status of Slavic languages.


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## Thomas1

Eugeniusx said:


> Hi Jana!
> Do not be afraid! Your definition of language (a language is a dialect with an army and A BORDER) is simply wrong.
> Sorbian, a language even recognized by Germany, is by far older than standard Polish or Bosnian (whatever that is).
> 
> Concerning my Silesian mother tongue it is clear, that you as an Czechian and Polish do not accept our language, as much as the Turkish and the Iranian regimes do not accept the Kurdish language
> Inshalah!


Hello, Eugeniusx, and welcome to the forums, 

Why do you think it "is simply wrong"? I can't see any mention of a language having a border in Jana's _definition_, btw.
Where/Why did you come up with the idea they are not languages?


Tom


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## Jana337

Eugeniusx said:


> Hi Jana!
> Do not be afraid! Your definition of language (a language is a dialect with an army and A BORDER) is simply wrong.


That's fine. I have yet to see a simply correct definition of language.

I had Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian at the back of my mind when I was adding the "admittedly not so accidental" part. Depending on political factors, they could be considered the same language whose variants exhibit many differences, or different languages that exhibit many similarities. Currently, the differences seem to be stressed more, so be it. 


> Concerning my Silesian mother tongue it is clear, that you as an Czechian and Polish do not accept our language, as much as the Turkish and the Iranian regimes do not accept the Kurdish language
> Inshalah!


Happy jihad then.

I happen to hail from Silesia, too, and to be honest, I have been hitherto totally oblivious to the existence of people who believe there's something like a "Silesian language", at least on the Czech side. My perception has always been that there's a continuum of dialects in Silesia: My grandmother on my mother's side spoke something quite similar (but by far not identical) to the samples I saw on websites promoting and dedicated to the Silesian language. My other grandmother's speech contained many Silesian elements as well (which to me means some Polish syntax, a good deal of Polish and German vocabulary), but was much closer to colloquial Czech since she was born further from Poland than the first grandmother. In a similar vain, the closer I go to Poland, the stronger the Silesian elements become. Both my grandmothers believed that they spoke a Czech dialect called "po našimu" ("in our own mode/fashion" - a funny name, I know ).

Funnily enough, some belligerent Moravists, a diminutive movement bogged down in bickering, fight hard to achieve recognition and extensive autonomy (or even independence) for Moravia* and to codify a "Moravian language" but they fiercely deny the same to Silesia. On their websites and in their forums, I couldn't find any Silesian voices contradicting them. Because most people simply couldn't care less.

So much for the Silesian identity and language, seen from the Czech Republic.

* Although the Constitution mentions three historical lands (Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia), they have little bearing on the actual system of public administration.


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## Eugeniusx

Quote: Both my grandmothers believed that they spoke a Czech dialect called "po našimu" ("in our own mode/fashion" - a funny name, I know ).
===
Very funny indeed: the Polish Silesian call their language "po naszemu".


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## Jana337

Eugeniusx said:


> Quote: Both my grandmothers believed that they spoke a Czech dialect called "po našimu" ("in our own mode/fashion" - a funny name, I know ).
> ===
> Very funny indeed: the Polish Silesian call their language "po naszemu".


I know. And I suppose that other Polish Silesians call their _dialect _"po naszemu" as well.


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## Grosvenor1

There was or is  a Silesian dialect sometimes given the pejorative name _Wasserpolnisch _by German speakers. It was a German dialect heavily influenced by Polish, or a Polish dialect heavily influenced by German, or an independent language in its own right, depending on your point of view. Is this the same dialect?


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