# Shiru v. Wakaru



## Ariander

I'm a first year Japanese student, so expect me to ask quite a few simplistic questions... I'm trying to understand everything as thoroughly as I can 

My question is regarding "shiru" versus "wakaru."

Both seem to mean "to know/understand" but what is the difference?  Is "shiru" like a deeper understanding or knowing a person?  And why do people say "wakarimashita" when they understand something you say, but I've never heard the use of "shirimashita" in the same manner?  So, basically, what is the difference and how would one use each one?

Thank you so much in advance!


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## Flaminius

The two verbs has a clear distinction.  Wakaru is to understand;
wakarimashita = I've understood what you have just said.
This is a typical response when you want to stop someone's explanation and send him packing.  

Shiru is to know.  This one is grammatically more tricky.  It is almost never used in the unmarked tense (or the present tense, or whatever you call it) when in affirmative;
わたしは彼を知っている
watashi-wa kare-o shitteiru.
I know him.
Note that 彼 here can be replaced by any object; the way, that he's lost the way, how many times he has lost the way and so on.

When in negative, the verb does not require _-teiru_ (progressive/stative suffix).
私は彼を知らない
watashi-wa kare-o shiranai.


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## cheshire

Good observation, I'd never realized shiru's unmarkedness, and -teiru not going well with the negative form until you reminded me.

知る　is to learn, know, notice, remember of a fact.
わかる is to realize, find out, discover.

This is not a clear-cut definition, but just a rule of thumb.
Generally speaking, わかる requires more intellectual energy than 知る.


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## Ariander

Thank you so much 

Hmm, building on that... if one wanted to say "I know (understand/speak, etc...) English" (or any other language-- or a subject, barring "speak") what would be the most natural way to express this?

私は英語をしっちます。
。。。が分かっています。
。。。を話しています。

(pardon me if the tense is wrong ^^;; )  Are all of these equally viable?


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## youtin

Ariander said:


> 私は英語をしっちます。



there is no しっちます。 It's 知っています　

I usually hear 英語ができます more than the others, but I think 英語がわかる　is common too.

英語を話しています　- this seems like a present continuing action -> "I am speaking English"

英語を話します　is the sentence I think you're looking for.　Same goes for わかる。


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## cheshire

You can also say,

英語がわかります。understand
英語を知っています。know what it's like


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## erika_her20

Great Explanation, everyone! 

I'm gonna try explaining it as well:

分かる *Wakaru* = To understand / To know (To understand is the most common use, but it depends on what you are talking about)

知る *Shiru* = To know

I'll give you an example: 

私は答が分かりません Watashi wa kotae ga *wakarimasen* = I don't know the answer (literally, I don't understand the answer)
私が答が知りません Watashi wa kotae ga *shirimasen* = I don't know the answer

But, when refering to people...

私は彼が分かりません Watashi wa kare ga *wakarimasen* = I don't understand him (As in: I don't know why he is like that / I don't understand the way he talks...)

私は彼が知りません Watashi wa kare ga *shirimasen* = I don't know him (As in: I've never met him)

When you want to express that you know English, you can say:

私は英語が分かります Watashi wa eigo ga *wakarimasu* = I understand English (it can also be understood as "I understand and/or speak English"), but some people could think that English is not your native language, you just learned it.

私は英語が話します Watashi wa eigo ga *hanashimasu* = I speak English

私は英語が話せます Watashi wa eigo ga *hanasemasu* = I can speak English (literally, I have the ability to speak English), so here people could also think that English is not your native language.

私は英語ができます Watashi wa eigo ga *dekimasu* = I can speak English (literally, I have the ability to speak English), so here people could also think that English is not your native language.

Another example:

Do you know her? = あなたは彼女を知っていますか Anata wa kanojo wo *shitteimasu* ka / あなたは彼女の事を知っていますか Anata wa kanojo no koto wo *shitteimasu* ka (Note that the word "koto" = "thing" was added. It's just the way most japanese people speak. It doesn't really make any difference in the sentence, but it sounds better with it).

Do you understand her (the way she speaks/thinks/acts) = あなたは彼女を分かりますか Anata wa kanojo wo *wakarimasu* ka / あなたは彼女の事を分かりますか Anata wa kanojo no koto wo *wakarimasu* ka (Note that the word "koto" = "thing" was added. It's just the way most japanese people speak. It doesn't really make any difference in the sentence, but it sounds better with it).


You've probably already noticed that in the sentences I just wrote, the verb "to understand" is always written in simple present (分かります wakarimasu), but the verb "to know" is written in progressive (知っています shitteimasu). Here's the reason:

The simple present form of the verb "to know" would be 知ます shimasu, which can be confussed with th verb "to do".

する *Suru* = To do (infinitive) / します Shimasu = To do (simple present) / しています Shiteimasu = To do (progressive)
知る *Shiru* = To know (infinitive) / 知ます Shimasu = To know (simple present) / 知っています Shitteimasu = To know (progressive)

I do homework everyday = 毎日私は宿題をします Mainichi watashi wa shukudai wo *shimasu*
I am doing homework now = 今私は宿題をしています Ima watashi wa shukudai wo *shiteimasu*
I know the meaning = 私は意味が知っています Watashi wa imi ga *shitteimasu*

*I HOPE IT HELPS*
;-)


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## Wishfull

erika_her20 said:


> Great Explanation, everyone!
> 
> I'm gonna try explaining it as well:
> 
> 分かる *Wakaru* = To understand / To know (To understand is the most common use, but it depends on what you are talking about)
> 
> 知る *Shiru* = To know
> 
> I'll give you an example:
> 
> 私は答が分かりません Watashi wa kotae ga *wakarimasen* = I don't know the answer (literally, I don't understand the answer)
> 私が答*を*知りません Watashi wa kotae *wo **shirimasen* = I don't know the answer
> 
> But, when refering to people...
> 
> 私は彼が分かりません Watashi wa kare ga *wakarimasen* = I don't understand him (As in: I don't know why he is like that / I don't understand the way he talks...)
> 
> 私は彼*を*知りません Watashi wa kare *wo* *shirimasen* = I don't know him (As in: I've never met him)
> 
> When you want to express that you know English, you can say:
> 
> 私は英語が分かります Watashi wa eigo ga *wakarimasu* = I understand English (it can also be understood as "I understand and/or speak English"), but some people could think that English is not your native language, you just learned it.
> 
> 私は英語*を*話します Watashi wa eigo *wo** hanashimasu* = I speak English
> 
> 私は英語が話せます Watashi wa eigo ga *hanasemasu* = I can speak English (literally, I have the ability to speak English), so here people could also think that English is not your native language.
> 
> 私は英語ができます Watashi wa eigo ga *dekimasu* = I can speak English (literally, I have the ability to speak English), so here people could also think that English is not your native language.
> 
> Another example:
> 
> Do you know her? = あなたは彼女を知っていますか Anata wa kanojo wo *shitteimasu* ka / あなたは彼女の事を知っていますか Anata wa kanojo no koto wo *shitteimasu* ka (Note that the word "koto" = "thing" was added. It's just the way most japanese people speak. It doesn't really make any difference in the sentence, but it sounds better with it).
> 
> Do you understand her (the way she speaks/thinks/acts) = あなたは彼女を分かりますか Anata wa kanojo wo *wakarimasu* ka / あなたは彼女の事を分かりますか Anata wa kanojo no koto wo *wakarimasu* ka (Note that the word "koto" = "thing" was added. It's just the way most japanese people speak. It doesn't really make any difference in the sentence, but it sounds better with it).
> 
> 
> You've probably already noticed that in the sentences I just wrote, the verb "to understand" is always written in simple present (分かります wakarimasu), but the verb "to know" is written in progressive (知っています shitteimasu). Here's the reason:
> 
> The simple present form of the verb "to know" would be 知*り*ます shi*ri*masu, which can be confussed with th verb "to do".
> 
> する *Suru* = To do (infinitive) / します Shimasu = To do (simple present) / しています Shiteimasu = To do (progressive)
> 知る *Shiru* = To know (infinitive) / 知*り*ます Shi*ri*masu = To know (simple present) / 知っています Shitteimasu = To know (progressive)
> 
> I do homework everyday = 毎日私は宿題をします Mainichi watashi wa shukudai wo *shimasu*
> I am doing homework now = 今私は宿題をしています Ima watashi wa shukudai wo *shiteimasu*
> I know the meaning = 私は意味*を*知っています Watashi wa imi *wo shitteimasu*
> 
> *I HOPE IT HELPS*
> ;-)


Hi. 
Nice job! You're a Japanese teacher, aren't you?

I tried to correct a few mistakes.


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## erika_her20

Yes. I teach Japanese on my free time ^.^
The problem is that I learned Japanese when I was 17 years old, so it's been 5 years and I don't have anyone to practice with :-(

Thanks for correcting all the mistakes :-D


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## Flaminius

erika_her20 said:


> But, when refering to people...
> 
> 私は彼が分かりません Watashi wa kare ga *wakarimasen* = I don't understand him (As in: I don't know why he is like that / I don't understand the way he talks...)


In order to use _wakaru_ in the sense of understanding what the person speaks about, you have to be more literal:
彼の言う/言っていることが分かりません。​


> Do you understand her (the way she speaks/thinks/acts) = あなたは彼女を分かりますか Anata wa kanojo wo *wakarimasu* ka / あなたは彼女の事を分かりますか Anata wa kanojo no koto wo *wakarimasu* ka (Note that the word "koto" = "thing" was added. It's just the way most *J*apanese people speak. It doesn't really make any difference in the sentence, but it sounds better with it).


Again, _wakaru_ with an unmodified direct object (_koto_ included) is to understand a person's character and, by extension, grasp them as a whole being.  It denotes the ability to appreciate them no matter what they do.  The _wakaru_ in this sense, therefore, frequently marks the object noun by _-ga_ just like more salient potential verbs:
(あなたは)彼女(のこと)が分かりますか。

In many cases, 彼女のことを分かりますか sounds very weird: "Are you going to be able to get to know her?"


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## Wishfull

Something a little different from the previous post;
*私はあなたがわからなくなった。*

It is a natural Japanese phrase, I believe.
I somehow think this is not 翻訳口調. I somehow feel that it is traditional idiomatic phrase.
It looks like 翻訳体, but I don't know why I don't think so.....
Maybe because I've heard it for a long time.

＝I don't believe in you anymore.
=I can't trust you any more.
=I can't agree with your behavior anymore.
=I can't feel sympathy with you or your thinking or your behavior or your conduct anymore.
=Now you have become a stranger to me.
=Now you have become someone who is not understandable to me.

I often hear the expression in TV drama, when a man and a woman is breaking off, or the scene of a divorce.
Fortunately not my actual life not yet.


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## Lupen The Third

Hello everybody!

Little question... Wakarimashita can be replaced with "O-wakari ni narimashita", isn't it?

Thank you!


[Ps : At last, I've started my studies at the university!  My sensei also said "Shitsumon ha? ]


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## fioif

lupen the third said:


> hello everybody!
> 
> Little question... Wakarimashita can be replaced with "o-wakari ni narimashita", isn't it?
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> 
> [ps : At last, i've started my studies at the university!  my sensei also said "shitsumon ha? :d]



「分かりました」に代えて「お分かりになりました」を使うことができると思います、それに、この二つの単語は互いに取り替えられのだけではないて、先生なんと目上の人に対して「お分かりになりました」のほうがいいのような気がします。


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## symbolt

Reading this, I get the impression that *wakaru* with human objects is similar to the English "get", as in:

I don't get her / I totally get her

This can mean "understand" (what's she's trying to communicate) but also understand in general (her personality, her behavior, her motivations, etc.)

Also, I feel that maybe *wakaru* is used for situations where you actively try to get to something in your mind, and *shiru* for situations where you feel all the knowledge is laid out in front of you, and you can easily "see" what's there and what's not there. That's why *wakaru* can sometimes be used for "know", when there is a feeling of "you have to puzzle something out" or "it's difficult to ascertain whether you really remember the particular fact or whether you've never learned it". Like in the example given by erika_her20:



			
				erika_her20 said:
			
		

> 私は答が分かりません Watashi wa kotae ga *wakarimasen*



This would be said in a situation where you've actively searched your mind for the answer, and nothing "came out of it" so it's like a situation where you try to understand but nothing comes out of it.



			
				erika_her20 said:
			
		

> 私が答*を*知りません Watashi wa kotae *wo **shirimasen*



This would be said in a situation where you feel you "know what you know" and thus "know what you don't know" and simply announce what you feel you have no knowledge of. Maybe said when somebody has studied for an exam really well and knows the textbook by heart, so they know when the question that they were asked is not in the book. Or maybe somebody who hasn't studied much and knows very little, so it's easy for them to tell what they know and what they don't know.

Anyway, this is just a theory - I wonder how you feel about it.


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## rukiak

As to the issue of No.4 (Ariander), if you want to say that you have the language skill, I recommend you should say:

私は 英語ができます。　／　私は 英語が少しできます。
watashi wa eigo ga dekimasu/watashi wa eigo ga sukoshi dekimasu
I understand English (I speak English). / I understand English a little (I speak English a little).
Especially for the speaking or writing skill, this expression is the best,i.e. clear and least misleading.

私は英語が分かります。
私は英語ＯＫです。
Those two are also useful, sometimes being likely to be passive though.


Arianderは英語(が、／は、)できますか？
Arianderは英語(が、／は、)わかりますか？
Arianderは英語(が、／は、)ＯＫですか？
Those are for the question, meaning "Do you understand English, Ariander?".


The very rough translation of *shiru* and *wakaru* to English is *"know"* and *"understand"*,respectively. In addition, the rough translation of  "*know*" and "*understand*" to Japanese is *shiru* and *rikai-suru* respectively.

Shiru and Rikaisuru are quite usually used as Shitte-iru and Rikai-dekiru form respectively, in usual comunication. 
But those are not used in natural conversationsin in case of speaking about someone's skills or abilities , especially of "yours, his, hers, theirs".
So in that case, 英語が理解できますか？ or 英語を知っていますか？, 物理学が理解できますか？or物理学を知っていますか？ for the expression of the meaning of "understand" and "know" , are not good (and sound impolite).
i.e. in that case, when you want to mean "understand" , you'd better to say just できる (, 分かる, or OK), and when meaning "know", you'd better to say 分かる or OK.


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## gratis asseritur

erika_her20 said:


> Great Explanation, everyone!
> 私は答が分かりません Watashi wa kotae ga *wakarimasen* = I don't know the answer (literally, I don't understand the answer)
> 私が答が知りません Watashi wa kotae ga *shirimasen* = I don't know the answer



日本語が母国語の方は誰もこれを取り上げていないのでもしかしたら僕の考え過ぎかもしれないがも一つの違いがあるように感じています。「知りません」を使うと侮辱になる場合もあるでしょうか？
Perhaps I am over-reacting, but it seems to me this should be taught with care, because "shirimasen" can sound insulting, can it not? At least to my non-native ear, where both can be used "wakarimasen" sounds safer.

(_Please_ correct my Japanese. My English, too, if you think it needs it.)


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## rukiak

>「知りません」を使うと侮辱になる場合もあるでしょうか？

It is possible to be impolite. I just said a little about it on my previous post.

What I can say it is surely no problem is the case in which someone has said 知る, 知っている, 知っていますか, 知りませんか，and so on, just before you say 知る, 知っている, 知っていますか, 知りませんか，etc.

For example:
A: Bさん、この問題を解いてください。
B:（私はその答えを）知りません。impolite 　; A right response is "分かりません".

but
A: Bさん、この問題の答えを知っていますか。
B:（私はその答えを）知りません。polite　(；分かりません is also polite.)

Another e.g.:
A: この建物内に日本語教室があると聞いたのですが、どこにあるのでしょうか？
B: すいません。私は知りません。impolite  ; A right response is "すいません。私には分かりません".

but
A: 日本語教室の場所、どこだか知っていますか？
B: 私は知りません。not so polite ,though not impolite

Another e.g.
A: 郵便番号と住所とお名前を記入してくださいね。
B: すいません、郵便番号は知りません。 impolite ; A right response is "すいません。郵便番号は分かりません。".


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## gratis asseritur

rukiak said:


> >「知りません」を使うと侮辱になる場合もあるでしょうか？
> Another e.g.
> A: 郵便番号と住所とお名前を記入してくださいね。
> B: すいません、郵便番号は知りません。 impolite ; A right response is "すいません。郵便番号は分かりません。".



Thank you very much for this list of very clear examples, rukiak! I think this is one area in which we native English speakers often haven't a clue when trying to distinguish between "know/understand" in Japanese -- we don't realize that it can be a politeness problem similar to "think/believe" in English. Only it's more of a problem because we are being rude without knowing it. (少なくとも「知るもんか」を使っていないね。）


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## Wishfull

Decent people, please don't use rude expressions such as,
知るもんか
知るか
知るかそんなもん
知ってたまるか
（そんなこと）知ったことか


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## gratis asseritur

Wishfull said:


> Decent people, please don't use rude expressions such as,
> 知るもんか
> 知るか
> 知るかそんなもん
> 知ってたまるか
> （そんなこと）知ったことか



Thanks, Wishfull! That is a great list. A definite keeper! (Just to make sure we avoid the expressions, of course.)


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