# Iste canis sunt



## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

good day,

I understand that ISTE is location dependent of ownership.
HIC and TUUS are possesion independent of location. I am
trying to understand the use of ISTE in its simplest application
in the most brief sentence possible.

If the use of 1st 2nd person etc are used to form more complicated
sentences by delining them, can ISTE stand alone in the following
sentence to show its function meaning, "this or that (of yours)"

ISTE CANIS SUM

is the translation: this dog by me


I am trying to understand ISTE in its simplest application


thank you so much

btwcan


----------



## CapnPrep

Which one of these are you interested in?


Iste canis sunt
ISTE CANIS SUM
Neither one makes very much sense, nor does your translation of the second: "this dog by me". 

You can find some simple, representative examples of how _iste_ is used in the dictionary.


----------



## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

CapnPrep said:


> Which one of these are you interested in?
> ISTE CANIS SUM



ISTE CANIS SUM is the one I am interested in translating.





Good afternoon,

Based on your reply I assume that this particular usage
of ISTE is incorrect and there is no existing translation.

thank you


----------



## Ben Jamin

"Sum" means "I am". That's why the sentence has no meaning. I suggest you get acquainted with the conjugation of verbs.


----------



## bibax

It translates: _I am this dog_. It could mean something.

For example:

- Where are you in the picture of the masquerade?
- I am this dog near you. _- Iste canis sum, te iuxta.
_


----------



## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

bibax said:


> It translates: _I am this dog_. It could mean something.
> 
> For example:
> 
> - Where are you in the picture of the masquerade?
> - I am this dog near you. _- Iste canis sum, te iuxta.
> _



If the sentence barely means 'I am this dog' in context and the
verb conjugation is wrong as you suggested could it be correct
in the 3rd person singular and not the 1st person singular since
I am not the dog

ISTE CANIS EST

It should not translate to 'I am this dog' but 'It is this dog'?


thank you so much

btwcan


----------



## miguel89

_Iste _means "that", thus "it is that dog".


----------



## J.F. de TROYES

_Iste canis sum   _ I agree with Bibax

_Iste canis est     _has two meanings depending on the context, as _iste _may be an adjective or a pronoun :

_This dog exists_  or    _This (He) is a dog _ ( possibly with a pejorative connotation, as it is usual with iste )


----------



## Scholiast

salvete!

With all respect to M. de TROYES, 





> possibly with a pejorative connotation, *as it is usual with iste* [my emphasis]


 _iste_ only takes on a pejorative nuance because of its usage in forensic oratory - and that means Cicero.

This is because of its regular use, in contradistinction with the other demonstrative pronouns/pronominal adjectives, to imply "your":

_hic_ = "this [one here]", "this [beside/next to me]"
_ille_ = "that [one yonder/over there]" - in some perceived sense remote from both speaker and addressee

_iste_ = "that [one there beside/*near you*]".

When Cicero prosecutes Verres, for example, he "addresses" the witnesses or legal counsel for the defence as well as the jury. So _iste_ is tantamount to "your client" - and of course it is Cicero's business to disparage as far as he can the character of the defendant.

In and of itself, this pronoun has no particular ethical or aesthetic value, any more than _hic_ or _ille_.


----------



## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

Good afternoon,

ISTIUS CANIS EST

would this work if you wanted to say 'this (object) is that dogs' (possesion)

thank you


----------



## Scholiast

salve



> ISTIUS CANIS EST
> 
> would this work if you wanted to say 'this (object) is that dogs' (possesion)
> 
> thank you



In strict grammar this is feasible. But it could hardly be considered idiomatically appropriate unless in a most unusual context, probably Plautine.


----------



## XiaoRoel

E iste, en contextos expresivos (sólo en un contexto así se puede dar esta frase) tiene un sentido claramente despectivo que se conserva en las lenguas hispánicas muy vivo y que caracteriza el latín vulgar y coloquial.
*Iste canis sum*, "soy este perro" es una frase rara, posible sólo en un contexto muy expresivo. *Iste* rebaja todavía más la categoría de *canis*. Es una expresión de suma _humiliatio_ y autodesprecio. El contexto aclarará si es una constatación sólo autodepreciativa o tiene un algo de queja velada.
_*Iste canis sunt*_, es más rara aún: "son este perro" (?). En plural _*isti canes sunt*_, significaría en español "estos (despreciativo) perros son lo que hay". Tampoco parece muy idiomática la expresión en latín, pero es posible.
Si usamos el genitivo _istius canis_, ya tienen mas sentido: *istius canis sum/sunt* "soy/son de este perro".
En todo caso, la unión de *iste* con *canis* no puede tener más que _carácter peyorativo_.


----------



## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

Devoid of context:

ISTO CANIS EST

means without proper context:  the dog of yours.


thank you

good day
good afternoon


----------



## CapnPrep

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> ISTO CANIS EST
> 
> means without proper context:  the dog of yours.


No, this sentence is also basically nonsense. Maybe it could mean something like "The dog has to go over there". But if you want to say "that dog of yours", you don't need a verb. _Iste tuus canis_ would be one way to say this, in the nominative case.

Perhaps if you gave us some idea of what you were trying to say (in English) we could help you more effectively, and you could stop giving us the same strange sentence with apparently random morphological variations and expecting it to mean something.


----------



## J.F. de TROYES

Scholiast said:


> salvete!
> 
> With all respect to M. de TROYES,  _iste_ only takes on a pejorative nuance because of its usage in forensic oratory - and that means Cicero.



You are right when  you point out where this pejorative use originates from, but the point is to be sure that it is not also possible in other contexts than before courts.


----------



## Scholiast

Dear all, and J.F. de Troyes in particular:



> You are right when  you point out where this pejorative use originates  from, but the point is to be sure that it is not also possible in other  contexts than before courts



Thank you, and of course there are other possible contexts in which a derogatory tone of voice inhabits _iste_. But that is also true of _hic_, _ille_ and indeed most other words in most languages: my point was simply that _iste_ is not particularly special in this regard.

Best wishes, naturally.


----------



## uchi.m

Why not _hic canis sum_? I say hic because _this_, in English, is closer to the addresser than to the addresee.


----------



## Scholiast

"_hic canis sum_" - greetings, uchi.m

This means either "I am the dog here", or "This dog is I".

There is a distinction between _hǐc_, "this" and _hīc_, "here".

What are you hoping or trying to express?


----------



## XiaoRoel

uchi.m said:


> Why not _hic canis sum_? I say hic because _this_, in English, is closer to the addresser than to the addresee.


Tens que pensar que este iste, não tem a ver com o campo mostrativo que tem o eixo no falante, mas com a valoração que faz o falante desse campo referencial mostrativo.


----------



## uchi.m

Scholiast said:


> "_hic canis sum_" - greetings, uchi.m
> 
> This means either "I am the dog here", or "This dog is I".
> 
> There is a distinction between _hǐc_, "this" and _hīc_, "here".
> 
> What are you hoping or trying to express?


Short hic.
Sorry but you should say _this dog is me_, or perhaps _I am this dog_.
Of course, it is a jest.


----------



## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

ISTIUS CANIS VIRI EST

this dog is the mans?

thanks


----------



## Cagey

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> ISTIUS CANIS VIRI EST
> 
> this dog is the mans?
> 
> thanks


An introductory textbook in Latin will answer your question.  This forum is not set up to do elementary instruction in Latin.

Though it contains some useful discussion, this thread lacks a clear question suitable to the form.  I am closing it. 

Cagey, moderator.


----------

