# Urdu: Various words for "until"



## Qureshpor

*In Urdu the following are common words for the English until.

jab tak.....nah

yahaaN tak kih

Hattaa kih

Not so common is taa aan kih

Would you say all these are synonymous or do you think there are subtle differences between them?

*


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## BP.

Hataa keh
taa aa.n keh or even taa keh
Everything else you said too.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Hataa keh
> taa aa.n keh or even taa keh
> Everything else you said too.



*Sorry PG Sahib. Your reply is not clear for my dense brain. Could you oblige me with some Urdu examples please. I believe taa kih (so that) does not mean until.*


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## BP.

My reply was simply a reiteration of yours, except for the taa keh. I've heard it thus used.


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## BP.

There could also be _taa damee keh_, what do you think.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> There could also be _taa damee keh_, what do you think.


*
BG Sahib. I am essentially asking forum participants if they feel all these words are identical in their meaning and usage or are they used differently for different set of circumstances.
*


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## panjabigator

QURESHPOR said:


> *In Urdu the following are common words for the English until.
> 
> jab tak.....nah
> 
> yahaaN tak kih
> 
> Hattaa kih
> 
> Not so common is taa aan kih
> 
> Would you say all these are synonymous or do you think there are subtle differences between them?
> 
> *



I'd say they all mean the convey "until," though perhaps different registers of speech. I've only seen "hattaa kih" and "taa aan kih" in writing, though now that I'm somewhat familiar with Persian, I very frequently encounter these phrases across Lucknow. Would you say that Urdu speakers in Punjab would use these latter two interchangeably with the first two?


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> I'd say they all mean the convey "until," though perhaps different registers of speech. I've only seen "hattaa kih" and "taa aan kih" in writing, though now that I'm somewhat familiar with Persian, I very frequently encounter these phrases across Lucknow. Would you say that Urdu speakers in Punjab would use these latter two interchangeably with the first two?


Yes, you still hear these in Lucknow!  

Both حتی كہ_hattaa keh _ and تا آنكہ_ taa unkeh_ are used in our household regularly, the former more than the latter though. Incidentally, we use حتی _Hattaa_ for _until_ in many compounds too, as shown here. (Keep going with the links on the bottom left of each page).

... and before I forget PG MiaN, my warm _salaams_ to you and to Lucknow!


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## Qureshpor

*tak, taa and Hattaa are essentially synonymous and mean "until, "as long as", "as far as". tak and Hattaa also mean "even".

jab tak

1) Gham rahaa jab tak kih dam meN dam rahaa
     dam ke jaane kaa nihaayat Gham rahaa

    (Miir)

2) jab tak saaNs hai tab tak aas hai

3) bande kii du'aa qubuul hotii rahtii hai jab tak vuh jaldii nah kare.

In all the above examples, the meaning of "jab tak" is " as long as".

1) jab tak tiryaaq 'Iraq se laayaa jaa'e gaa, saaNp kaa Dasaa mar chukaa ho gaa.

Here "jab tak" means, "by the time". 

1) jab tak maiN lauT nah aa'uuN, tum yahiiN rahnaa

Stay in this very place until I return.

I do not believe jab tak (kih) can be directly substituted with yahaaN tak kih, taa aan kih or Hattaa kih in the above examples. I think these three constructions serve distinct roles in urdu.

......................................................................................................................

Until (change of subject)

1) roz kii yih kahaanii thii yahaaN tak kih ek subH...

2) Traflagar se ho kar Tolii daryaa-i-Thames ke kinaare sastaa'ii taa aan kih Jamil ne apnii ghaRii dekhte hu'e kahaa..

3) ba-har Haal ham shepherd ke saath chalte rahe Hattaa kih aage se mezbaan ne aa kar hameN Khush aamaded kahaa.

**
Until (Result)*
* 
1) agar sulH ho jaane ke ba'd un meN se ko'ii ek duusre par chaRhaa'ii kare to sab mil kar us chaRhaa'ii karne vaale ke Khilaaf jang karo yahaaN tak kih vuh Allah ke Hukm kii taraf lauT aa'e.

2) mallaaH fatH ko DhuuNDne ke liye Dijlah kii manjhdhaar chale ga'e aur har taraf tairte hu'e jaa rahe the taa aan kih saatveN roz un meN se ek, ek soraaKh tak pahuNchaa.

3) ham haath hilaate, Khudaa Haafiz kii aaR lete, tez tez qadam uThaate chal nikle Hattaa kih apne majaazii kunbe kii kashish-i-saql se baahar aa ga'e.

**Until (Extent)*

*yih qiyaasaat baRhte rahe **yahaaN tak kih/** taa aan kih/**Hattaa kih puurii insaaniyyat par chhaa ga'e.

Questions:

1) It seems that in Persian taa iin kih is used in place of Urdu taa aan kih. Any difference?

2) Is the aan in **taa aan kih the Arabic aan **for "moment"?
* 
*
 *


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## BP.

QP, two more came to my mind, both similar in structure and both commonly used:
_taa waqtee keh_ - تا وقتِ کہ
_taa iin dam keh_ - تا این دم کہ



> *2) Is the aan in **taa aan kih the Arabic aan **for "moment"?*


I'd suppose so.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> QP, two more came to my mind, both similar in structure and both commonly used:
> _taa waqtee keh_ - تا وقتِ کہ
> _taa iin dam keh_ - تا این دم کہ
> 
> 
> I'd suppose so.



*Thank you. Your first one is actually *تا وقتے کھ *. I think these are not as common, in Urdu at least, as 'taa aan kih". Certainly in Modern Persian *تا وقتی کھ *is quite common.*


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *
> Thank you. Your first one is actually *تا وقتے کھ *. I think these are not as common, in Urdu at least, as 'taa aan kih". Certainly in Modern Persian *تا وقتی کھ *is quite common.*


 Yes it is تا وقتیكہ _*taa waqtikeh*_ and it is not as common as either حتی كہ_* Hatta keh*_ or تا آنكہ _*taa unkeh*_.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> QP, two more came to my mind, both similar in structure and both commonly used:
> _taa waqtee keh_ - تا وقتِ کہ
> _taa iin dam keh_ - تا این دم کہ
> 
> 
> I'd suppose so.



*I have often wondered if the "aan" in "taa aan kih" is the  Arabic "aan" to imply "up to the moment that". But, on the other hand, if there exists the commonly occurring "taa iin kih"  in modern Persian, "taa aan kih"'s "aan" must be demonstrative too . What do you think?*


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## eskandar

QURESHPOR said:


> I have often wondered if the "aan" in "taa aan kih" is the  Arabic "aan" to imply "up to the moment that". But, on the other hand, if there exists the commonly occurring "taa iin kih"  in modern Persian, "taa aan kih"'s "aan" must be demonstrative too . What do you think?


No question about it- the آن in تا آن که is the Persian demonstrative, not an Arabic loan. In Persian it can be extended to say تا آنجا که as in تا آنجا که می‌دانم (as far as I know/to the extent that I know) or تا آن وقت که (until the time that...), etc.


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## Faylasoof

eskandar said:


> No question about it- the آن in تا آن که is the Persian demonstrative, not an Arabic loan. In Persian it can be extended to say تا آنجا که as in تا آنجا که می‌دانم (as far as I know/to the extent that I know) or تا آن وقت که (until the time that...), etc.


 Absolutely! Nothing to do with Arabic! 

In Urdu we do have حتى الآن _*hatt-al-aan*_ (till now / so far/ thus far) which is a direct Arabic borrowing and of course this _*-aan*_ of الآن _*al-aan*_ is quite different from the Persian demonstratie آن  as you mentioned. 

In some Urduphone households with a Persian speaking background you can hear these too!


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## marrish

Let me rekindle this dormant thread by adding that there's been no mention of الی ilaa which can also mean -until-, but has also other similar meanings as is the case with all other words which are gathered in this thread. Answering to the original question, which has already been answered  _jab tak ... nah_ is the most clear-cut equivalent of until in the sense of time or condition. Second point which I would like to raise is regarding ''_yahaaN tak kih_'' which serves this purpose most poorly. My perception of this phrase is that it is equivalent to the meaning of ''Hattaa kih''- "even, to this extent that..."


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## Qureshpor

^ ilaa is more "to" than "until".

In the second segment of post 9, I don't think we can use "jab tak kih" and I would personally prefer "taa aan kih" over "yahaaN tak kih".


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> ^ ilaa is more "to" than "until".
> 
> In the second segment of post 9, I don't think we can use "jab tak kih" and I would personally prefer "taa aan kih" over "yahaaN tak kih".


I agree wholeheartedly. It appears that _yahaaN tak kih_ is a poor attempt at making a calque of the originally Persian _taa aan kih, _however this is well used so it is more probably confusing the two concepts. It means _us_ (_hangaam_) _tak kih_, _us waqt tak kih_=_jab tak (kih) ... nah_.


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. It appears that _yahaaN tak kih_ is a poor attempt at making a calque of the originally Persian _taa aan kih, _however this is well used so it is more probably confusing the two concepts. It means _us_ (_hangaam_) _tak kih_, _us waqt tak kih_=_jab tak (kih) ... nah_.


I don't know if "yahaaN tak kih" is a calque or not. In Persian, my experience has been more often than not "taa iin kih". As I have said before, in the types of sentences below, I don't think we can use "jab tak ..nah" format. I wonder if "jab tak" on its own would be permissible in these sentences. I would personally be quite happy with just one word "taa" in all the below examples. 

Until (change of subject)

1) roz kii yih kahaanii thii yahaaN tak kih ek subH...

2) Traflagar se ho kar Tolii daryaa-i-Thames ke kinaare sastaa'ii taa aan kih Jamil ne apnii ghaRii dekhte hu'e kahaa..

3) ba-har Haal ham shepherd ke saath chalte rahe Hattaa kih aage se mezbaan ne aa kar hameN Khush aamaded kahaa.

Until (Result)

1) agar sulH ho jaane ke ba'd un meN se ko'ii ek duusre par chaRhaa'ii kare to sab mil kar us chaRhaa'ii karne vaale ke Khilaaf jang karo yahaaN tak kih vuh Allah ke Hukm kii taraf lauT aa'e.

2) mallaaH fatH ko DhuuNDne ke liye Dijlah kii manjhdhaar chale ga'e aur har taraf tairte hu'e jaa rahe the taa aan kih saatveN roz un meN se ek, ek soraaKh tak pahuNchaa.

3) ham haath hilaate, Khudaa Haafiz kii aaR lete, tez tez qadam uThaate chal nikle Hattaa kihapne majaazii kunbe kii kashish-i-saql se baahar aa ga'e.

Until (Extent)

yih qiyaasaat baRhte rahe yahaaN tak kih/ taa aan kih/Hattaa kih puurii insaaniyyat par chhaa ga'e.


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## Qureshpor

In a recent thread on "yahaaN tak ki(h)", a question was asked for its meaning.

It has several meanings, such as "so much so that", "to the extent that", "even" as well as "until" about which one or two friends had a disagreement. The "until" meaning is usually in the context of an event continuing to take a place until something else happens.

For example: 

i) apnaa kaam karte raho, *yahaaN tak kih* tum us meN maahir ho jaa'o.

Continue with your work *until* you become an expert in it.

Here is a literary example... a "nazm" called "pashemaanii" (regret) by an Urdu poet, Kaifi Azami. I am quoting the second "band".

ii) 
magar us ne rokaa nah mujh ko manaayaa
nah daaman hii pakRaa nah mujh ko biThaayaa
nah aavaaz hii dii nah mujh ko bulaayaa
maiN aahistah aahistah baRhtaa hii aayaa
*yahaaN tak kih* us se judaa ho gayaa  maiN

I shall translate the last two lines.

Slowly I continued to move foreward 
*Until*, I became separated from her

You can see that this "until" is in essence an extension of "so much so that"/ "to the extent that".


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## bargolus

Qureshpor said:


> I don't know if "yahaaN tak kih" is a calque or not. In Persian, my experience has been more often than not "taa iin kih". As I have said before, in the types of sentences below, I don't think we can use "jab tak ..nah" format. I wonder if "jab tak" on its own would be permissible in these sentences. I would personally be quite happy with just one word "taa" in all the below examples.
> 
> Until (change of subject)
> 
> 1) roz kii yih kahaanii thii yahaaN tak kih ek subH...
> 
> 2) Traflagar se ho kar Tolii daryaa-i-Thames ke kinaare sastaa'ii taa aan kih Jamil ne apnii ghaRii dekhte hu'e kahaa..
> 
> 3) ba-har Haal ham shepherd ke saath chalte rahe Hattaa kih aage se mezbaan ne aa kar hameN Khush aamaded kahaa.
> 
> Until (Result)
> 
> 1) agar sulH ho jaane ke ba'd un meN se ko'ii ek duusre par chaRhaa'ii kare to sab mil kar us chaRhaa'ii karne vaale ke Khilaaf jang karo yahaaN tak kih vuh Allah ke Hukm kii taraf lauT aa'e.
> 
> 2) mallaaH fatH ko DhuuNDne ke liye Dijlah kii manjhdhaar chale ga'e aur har taraf tairte hu'e jaa rahe the taa aan kih saatveN roz un meN se ek, ek soraaKh tak pahuNchaa.
> 
> 3) ham haath hilaate, Khudaa Haafiz kii aaR lete, tez tez qadam uThaate chal nikle Hattaa kihapne majaazii kunbe kii kashish-i-saql se baahar aa ga'e.
> 
> Until (Extent)
> 
> yih qiyaasaat baRhte rahe yahaaN tak kih/ taa aan kih/Hattaa kih puurii insaaniyyat par chhaa ga'e.



Thanks Qureshpor - this is really useful. Can you provide English translations for those examples? Will just help me understand what the conjunctions are trying to do.


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