# caillera



## RuK

How would you translate caillera, the verlan for racaille? I'm looking for an English word that has the same street tone. Racaille became famous recently as the word the French Interior Minister used to describe street toughs, but really in the blighted suburbs a lot of the street toughs use it to describe themselves. Any ideas? (BE or AE)


----------



## hibouette

Maybe  "thug" ou player ?


----------



## patgaret

peut etre _nigga_ ou _whigga_ mais je suis vraiment pas sure


----------



## RuK

Caillera isn't racial though - and 'thug' isn't street enough - I need something very slangy, very now, to describe a gang of mostly boys hanging about - then the boys in another passage use the term for themselves... my brain hurts.


----------



## Kenneth Garland

I'm not sure I know of an exact equivalent.   Gangs in Britain sometimes refer to themselves as 'crew', but it's not a word in general use.

You will see the term 'hoodies' a lot in the British media these days - many young people like to cover their heads with hoods (even on hot days!), and this is associated in the public mind with crime & hooliganism.

There are Jamaican gangs called 'yardies', but that is very specific.


----------



## DDT

What about "scum"?

DDT


----------



## Kenneth Garland

As a Grumpy Old Man, I might use the word 'scum'  but it isn't street slang!


----------



## RuK

Yes, the English media translated Sarkozy's use of the word 'racaille' as 'scum' but I was never convinced by that. I don't see racaille as quite that insulting, and it's not the same kind of tone. I suppose I'll go with hoodie, but I've never heard it - does it have a disapproving tone, as well as a matey, boys-together kind of colouration?


----------



## DDT

RuK said:


> Yes, the English media translated Sarkozy's use of the word 'racaille' as 'scum' but I was never convinced by that. I don't see racaille as quite that insulting, and it's not the same kind of tone. I suppose I'll go with hoodie, but I've never heard it - does it have a disapproving tone, as well as a matey, boys-together kind of colouration?


mmmh..."racaille" is sort of scornful though...

DDT


----------



## jann

hi RuK 

I'm not sure about BE, but in AE, I would associate "hoodie" with "the 'hood" (as in "the neighborhood").  Boys from "the 'hood" would probably be black in US street talk.... so there may well be a racial connotation to "hoodie" as well...


----------



## Kenneth Garland

I think I would say that, for gentle, middle-class middle-aged people like myself  , the term 'hoody' conjures up a somewhat threatening image of a youth who you are not sure is going to do some criminal act, such as steal your mobile as you use it.   Putting on my other hat as someone involved in the social welfare field (though not youth work), I'm sure most hoodies are just making a fashion statement.   However, the image is what is counts in the media!

I don't think you can call anyone much over 21 a hoody!


----------



## RuK

DDT said:


> mmmh..."racaille" is sort of scornful though...
> 
> DDT



I definitely agree, it's said with scorn - often - though the degree of scorn can vary - but here, note, I'm trying to translate caillera. It's a word that can be used in the voices of two people - onlookers, eyeing a group of kids on the street who are just hanging about in a not specially threatening manner (perhaps wearing hoods!) - but also can be used by those kids about other, similar kids. It's the same way 'nigger' could be an insult or an in-word, a group-word, but I have no indication of ethnic origin.


----------



## zam

I'm sure you all remember here that, last november 2005, Sarkozy famously called the Paris rioters 'la racaille qu'il faut nettoyer au Karcher' (= scum who should be power-hosed from the streets).


----------



## DDT

RuK said:


> I definitely agree, it's said with scorn - often - though the degree of scorn can vary - but here, note, I'm trying to translate caillera. It's a word that can be used in the voices of two people - onlookers, eyeing a group of kids on the street who are just hanging about in a not specially threatening manner (perhaps wearing hoods!) - but also can be used by those kids about other, similar kids. It's the same way 'nigger' could be an insult or an in-word, a group-word, but I have no indication of ethnic origin.


True, but basically "caillera" is a 16th district style word so I'd render it as "scum" except when used by kids towards other kids - in this case you might perhaps use something like "yo brothers" or similar

DDT


----------



## Rip

RuK said:


> Yes, the English media translated Sarkozy's use of the word 'racaille' as 'scum' but I was never convinced by that. I don't see racaille as quite that insulting, and it's not the same kind of tone. I suppose I'll go with hoodie, but I've never heard it - does it have a disapproving tone, as well as a matey, boys-together kind of colouration?


"Racaille" : people considered as "rejects of the society", trash, waste, rubbish ; IMO, "racaille" is as insulting as "scum".


----------



## Auryn

Kenneth Garland said:


> You will see the term 'hoodies' a lot in the British media these days - many young people like to cover their heads with hoods (even on hot days!), and this is associated in the public mind with crime & hooliganism.



There's also 'yobs' which _is_ slang (verlan for boy). I don't know whether British yobs use the word to describe themselves though.


----------



## Kenneth Garland

I've just found this (BBC News) report of a court case that includes the word "crew", which I mentioned in an earlier post.   I have to say I haven't myself heard it in everyday speech - I've usually seen it in graffiti.   Come to think of it, the court case was about graffiti.


_The court heard the name "42 crew" was derived from the acronym FTWO, which stands for 42 and also for "for those who oppose". __Thomas's defence lawyer, Diane Nixon, told the court he was "very remorseful" and no longer associated with his former crew._


----------



## doodlebugger

_Racaille_ is insulting and was rather old fashion before Sarkozy brought it back to the limelights.
Now the street gangs like to call themselves _racailles_ just to get back at the authorities.
It reminds me of _punk_ which became a movement after being an insult.
I am not saying that _racaille_ should be literally translated as _punk_, but it is the same idea.


----------



## Suebethi

Hello RuK,
I'd say that it'd most probably  be a "hood" in Am Eng.


----------



## DDT

doodlebugger said:


> _Racaille_ is insulting and was rather old fashion before Sarkozy brought it back to the limelights.



Not in the Paris I've been living during last years..."racaille" was commonly used before Sarkozy's speech 

DDT


----------



## Rip

DDT said:


> Not in the Paris I've been living during last years..."racaille" was commonly used before Sarkozy's speech
> 
> DDT


It's the same in Brussels.


----------



## RuK

Thanks - I went with "hood" for the grownups talking about the kids, and "hoodie" for kids talking about each other.

I've learned from this thread how very insulting racaille is seen to be. I knew it wasn't a nice word, but I'm afraid that in my suburb it really is in incredibly common use (pre-Sarkozy) and I had assumed, after years of hearing it said in absolutely normal discourse, that it wasn't THAT bad. 

Is there in your opinion a difference of level of insult between racaille and caillera?


----------



## LittlPinkStinky

For me, the difference between racaille and caillera is the same that the one you did between hood (grown ups talking) and hoodies (kids between themselves). 
Personaly, I have never heard any grown up / adult / media, saying caillera. I only heard it said among young people. 
I also feel that the word caillera is more insulting, as the word racaille, now being used by everyone (the media, incl. Sarko) has lost a lot of its insulting power.


----------



## Rip

RuK said:


> Thanks - I went with "hood" for the grownups talking about the kids, and "hoodie" for kids talking about each other.
> 
> I've learned from this thread how very insulting racaille is seen to be. I knew it wasn't a nice word, but I'm afraid that in my suburb it really is in incredibly common use (pre-Sarkozy) and I had assumed, after years of hearing it said in absolutely normal discourse, that it wasn't THAT bad.
> 
> Is there in your opinion a difference of level of insult between racaille and caillera?


A difference of level ? In my opinion, no.

http://french.about.com/library/vocab/bl-verlan.htm


----------



## zombi

RuK said:


> How would you translate caillera, the verlan for racaille? I'm looking for an English word that has the same street tone. Racaille became famous recently as the word the French Interior Minister used to describe street toughs, but really in the blighted suburbs a lot of the street toughs use it to describe themselves. Any ideas? (BE or AE)



Chav maybe?


----------



## jann

> Chav maybe?


Chav, a word I just had to look up.  I do not believe this would be understood at all in the US.


----------



## zombi

Yeah you are right, this term is used only in the UK.


----------



## zombi

Oh and there is an article in the Guardian about that:

'Some felt the word scum accurately reflected Mr Sarkozy's meaning; one thought mob was closer to the mark. James felt the closest approximation was "chav, kev, ned, or any other of those words used to describe the growing underclass that our society is creating in the UK".'


----------



## zam

This was discussed in the thread below

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=168156&highlight=chav

Sarkozy's "racaille" was translated in the british press as either "rabble", "riff-raff" or "scum". To me, the latter is the better option (rabble is too soft and in fact used quite often to mean a noisy group, and riff-raff is not as offensive-sounding as scum).


----------



## themaster

thugster(s) a mix between thug + gangster ....does this work?


----------



## LARSAY

In the USA, they talk about "The White *Trash*", which translates by "La racaille blanche"


----------



## silvae

Same here. Racaille and caillera were being used in Lyon well before his speech, including by the grops themselves...


----------



## jetman

For me *hood* connotes someone who is a criminal.  *Punk *or *street punk* brings to mind the kids hanging out on the corner looking for mischief but who are not really criminals.  I think they might refer to themselves as *gangstas*.  Never heard of *chav*.


----------



## ben62

Living in England,  I think _chavs_ are probably quite similar to the so-calles _cailleras.
_ben


----------



## silvae

Out of interest... what about "scruff"? I take it to mean "riff-raff" or something approaching, but i'd never heard it before. Is it Scottish, or BE?


----------

