# Bottle



## CyrusSH

Bottle: Online Etymology Dictionary



> "narrow-necked hollow vessel for holding and carrying liquids," mid-14c., originally of leather, from Old French boteille (12c., Modern French bouteille), from Vulgar Latin butticula (source also of Spanish botella, Italian bottiglia), diminutive of Late Latin buttis "a cask," which is perhaps from Greek.



Pot: Online Etymology Dictionary



> "vessel," from late Old English pott and Old French pot "pot, container, mortar" (also in erotic senses), both from a general Low Germanic (Old Frisian pott, Middle Dutch pot) and Romanic word from Vulgar Latin *pottus, of uncertain origin, said by Barnhart and OED to be unconnected to Late Latin potus "drinking cup." Celtic forms are said to be borrowed from English and French.



We have two Latin words with almost unknown origins, but in wiktionary there is a proto-Germanic origin.

Proto-Germanic *puttaz: Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/puttaz - Wiktionary



> From Pre-Germanic *butnós or *budnós (“a kind of vessel, swelled-out shape”), from Proto-Indo-European *bewt-, *bewd- (“to swell”). Compare Old Armenian պոյտն (poytn, “pot, earthen pot”).



About the Armenian word: պոյտն - Wiktionary



> The origin is uncertain.
> 
> Petersson connected with Proto-Germanic *puttaz (“pot”), deriving պոյտն (poytn) from Proto-Indo-European *bewd-no- or *bowd-no and the Germanic word from *bud-nó-, both from the root *bewd-, *bud- (“to swell”). This is accepted by Pokorny and J̌ahukyan, but rejected by Ačaṙyan, who considers the Germanic to be borrowed from Medieval Latin pottus, potus (“pot”).
> 
> Olsen puts պոյտն (poytn) in her list of words of unknown origin, writing “loan or inheritance?”.



Sanskrit _patra_ (pot) and Persian _patil_ (cauldron) can be also mentioned, the Finnish word for "cauldron" is _pata_ from Proto-Uralic *pata: pata - Wiktionary

Etymonline says Latin _buttis_ is perhaps from Greek but it doesn't mention the Greek word, it could be Ancient Greek _βατι-άκη_ (bati-ákē, “cup, bowl”) which is a loanword from Persian _badag_: باده - Wiktionary

What do you think about it?


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## sotos

> Etymonline says Latin _buttis_ is perhaps from Greek but it doesn't mention the Greek word,
> What do you think about it?



It is the AGr "βούτις" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...abetic+letter=*b:entry+group=35:entry=bou=tis

A βυτ- variant might have existed sometime, becoz in new Gr. we have the _βυτίον_ (vessel, usually of big size). Now I am rethinking that etymology of butter. It may come not from βους but from βούτις, unless they both originate from the bovine horn (usually κέρας, as a drinking vessel).


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## CyrusSH

We don't know the Scythian word for butter but the Persian word *badag* is wellknown, Athenaeus says it is the name of a Persian bowl  (phiale).


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## Treaty

_bāda_[_g_] (OP _bātu_) means "wine" not "cup". The usage as "cup containing wine" is secondary and possibly doesn't even mean "cup" but a unit-like word (e.g., like when we go to shop and ask for an _āb_(_-ma'danī_) instead of a _botrī-e_ ~. No one would conclude that _āb _means "bottle"). Anyway, Athenaeus doesn't say anything about _bāda_[_g_] or _bātu_, but _βατι-άκη _that is obviously a derivative of _bātu. _In short, Persian _bāda_[_g_] doesn't seem semantically related to all other "container" words you mentioned.
In any case, when we have Greek _boutis _which matches the possible Latin borrowing, it doesn't make sense to discuss _bati-ake_ which is phonetically too far from Latin _buttis_. If, Sotos's speculation is correct and _boutis_ is related to _bous_ "cow", and if Latin _buttis _is from _boutis_, then both (and "bottle") would also be unrelated to the rest of the words (_pot_, _patil_, etc.) as those are definitely not related to "cow".


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## CyrusSH

Being a word for cow in Greek can be enough reason to consider Greek origin for different words! What sotos said about βυτ- variant itself shows that it can't be related to cow.


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## sotos

Treaty said:


> _bāda_[_g_] (OP _bātu_) means "wine" not "cup". The usage as "cup containing wine" is secondary and possibly doesn't even mean "cup" but a unit-like word (e.g., like when we go to shop and ask for an _āb_(_-ma'danī_) instead of a _botrī-e_ ~. No one would conclude that _āb _means "bottle"). Anyway, Athenaeus doesn't say anything about _bāda_[_g_] or _bātu_, but _βατι-άκη _that is obviously a derivative of _bātu. _In short, Persian _bāda_[_g_] doesn't seem semantically related to all other "container" words you mentioned.



This "botri-e" and the relations between  wine and cup/bottle reminds me of the homeric Gr. βότρυς = _bunch of grapes: Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,  A Greek-English Lexicon, β , βοτρ-ύδιον , βότρυς _still used today. Is it accidental or the natural relation between grapes-wine-cup? Consider also the rhotacism. I suppose the immediate relation_ βότρυς - bottle _is that you can fill a cup/bottle with the juice of a bunch of grapes.


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## Sardokan1.0

sotos said:


> This "botri-e" and the relations between  wine and cup/bottle reminds me of the homeric Gr. βότρυς = _bunch of grapes: Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,  A Greek-English Lexicon, β , βοτρ-ύδιον , βότρυς _still used today. Is it accidental or the natural relation between grapes-wine-cup? Consider also the rhotacism. I suppose the immediate relation_ βότρυς - bottle _is that you can fill a cup/bottle with the juice of a bunch of grapes.



Same of Latin : botryo or butryo or botrus or botruus = bunch of grapes

We still find a derivation of this in Sardinian language :

 - budròne = bunch of grapes (butryonem = accusative)


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## CyrusSH

This is a good Persian article about *batt*: بهنام This word means both "duck" and "a narrow-necked hollow vessel in the shape of a duck", these types of vessels have been made in Iran since at least 800 BC.

Arabic بط has a Persian origin: بط - Wiktionary

بده ساقی شرابی از بط و خم
بزن مطرب نوای بربط و نی


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## CyrusSH

About Greek *batiaca/batiola*: Athenaeus,  The Deipnosophists, Book XI., chapter 27



> The batiaca is a Persian goblet. And among the letters of the great Alexander to the Satraps of Asia there is inserted one letter in which the following passage occurs:—“There are three batiacæ of silver gilt, ...
> There is a cup used by the Alexandrians named bessa, wider in the lower parts, and narrow above.
> 
> Athenaeus.



It seems to be from Persian _batt_, not _badag_.


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## Treaty

I'd be cautious to draw this conclusion. Firstly, I'd rather not take a Wikitionary etymology for _baṭṭ_ for granted without a proper reference (it was a common word in the region, probably imitative). Secondly, it may be fallacious to consider Old Persian used _baṭṭ_ for this wine-cup in 500BC because 1500 years later Persian used it for the same meaning. Thirdly, you are assuming duck-shaped rhytons or cups were common in Achaemenid court so that to be borrowed by the Greek. Fourthly, you are assuming that _batiake _was duck-shaped. I haven't been able to find support for any of these four assumptions.


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## berndf

Moderator note: I have changed the title of the thread from *"Bottle & Pot"* to *"Bottle"*. These are two independent words and forum rules only allow one topic per thread. References to *pot *would only be on-topic if and to the extent to which it is useful to explore the etymology of _*bottle*_.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> I'd be cautious to draw this conclusion. Firstly, I'd rather not take a Wikitionary etymology for _baṭṭ_ for granted without a proper reference (it was a common word in the region, probably imitative).



What do you think about Dehkhoda dictionary?

It really doesn't matter that Arabic بط is a loanword from Persian or not, the important point is that the same word was used in Persian, I don't think you want to say it should be بت not بط, like what is said about طهران and تهران.



> Secondly, it may be fallacious to consider Old Persian used _baṭṭ_ for this wine-cup in 500BC because 1500 years later Persian used it for the same meaning.



Why?! Numerous words which were used in the Old Persian, are being still used in modern Persian, what is strange about it? For example is it strange that we still use _bot_ for idol?!



> Thirdly, you are assuming duck-shaped rhytons or cups were common in Achaemenid court so that to be borrowed by the Greek.



I don't know what you meant but the earliest duck-shaped vessel has been discovered in Ziwiyeh, so it has Scythian origin and belongs to pre-Achaemenid era.



> Fourthly, you are assuming that _batiake _was duck-shaped. I haven't been able to find support for any of these four assumptions.



The fact is that Persian _batt_ has two meanings, one of them is "duck" and another one is "a type of vessel", this thing that these two relate to each other, is not clear. It is even possible that ancient Persians saw ducks similar to their vessels and gave this name to them, or _batt_ was used for duck-shaped vessels in the early times and then used for other ones too.

It is good to mention another important Persian word for a type of container: bute.


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## Treaty

1. It *does *matter to demonstrate an Iranian origin for _bat_. It is the core of your argument. If you can't show that this word was used in Old Persian (not a later borrowing from a local language), then basically you can't conclude that they called a cup after it.
2. Your argument is logically fallacious in every level. First, it is a converse error. Second, it is an etymological fallacy. Words and their different meanings do not exist primordially. Take examples: _dabīr, deh_ and _šahr_. Their Old Persian equivalents didn't probably mean "high school teacher", "village" and "city/town" as they mean now. 
3. The people in question are the Achaemenid Persians from whom the Greek could have borrowed. Ziwiye is a pre-Achaemenid site of a non-Persian culture. You need to show their tradition of making duck-shaped vessel had continued well into the royal Achaemenid craft. 
4. The most important issue and the elephant in the room: even if you can prove #1 to #3, they are still irrelevant as long as you can't demonstrate that Greek _batiake _was a duck-shaped vessel.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> 1. It *does *matter to demonstrate an Iranian origin for _bat_. It is the core of your argument. If you can't show that this word was used in Old Persian (not a later borrowing from a local language), then basically you can't conclude that they called a cup after it.





> bāda[g] (OP bātu) means "wine" not "cup".



What is your source which shows Old Persian _batu_ means "wine" not "cup"? As I see it is completely otherwise, there is no mention of wine in the Old Persian texts.


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## Treaty

There are several evidence which point to OP *_bātu/bāti/bāta_ meaning "wine":
- A direct attestation is _bātu-gara_ on one of the silver bowls we discussed in another thread (though its authenticity is contested) (in Kent's _Old Persian_). The literal translation would be like "wine-eating" (cf. -_xorī _in Persian to designate what is eaten in a dish).
- Greek _batiake_ means "wine cup". The likeliest conclusion is that it is a derivative of *_bati/batu _not the same as it. So, *_bati _and _batiake _probably didn't mean the same. 
- Elamite _ba-ti-ba-zi-iš_ (< OP _bāta-bāziš_) means "wine tax" باج باده (in Hinz & Koch's _Elamisches Worterbuch_).
- Aramaic _bāt _means "wine" (in Bowman's _Aramaic Ritual Texts from Persepolis_).
- For the likely descendants of the OP word, we have MP _bādag/bātak_ and, as loaned, Aramaic _bādag_ and Arabic _bāḏaq_ all meaning "wine" (or "red wine"). However, there is also a possible loan into Chinese _bwag-dag_ which means "vine" and "grape" (in Imoto's _Lauferica_). 

For more than 1000 years the only attested meaning for lone _bāt- _had been "wine" not "cup". The "cup" meaning is only attested in the derived words. The first attestation of _bāda _itself to mean "wine-cup" is in a fringe of New Persian texts, usually poetic, where the "wine" meaning is still the main meaning. It's worth reiterating that I haven't still seen an example of _bāda _referring to wine cup _per se_ rather than a wine cup with wine in it. The most likely explanation is that the "cup" meaning is a secondary and somewhat metaphorical usage that had developed much later than the original meaning "wine".


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## CyrusSH

It is not clear that Middle Persian _badag_ which actually means "something related to _bad_" because of its "-ag" suffix, related to Old Persian _bat_ or not, of course it could mean "wine", compare to _chashm_ (چشم) & _chashmag_ (چشمه). I see no reason to discuss about it here, because the word _bat_ exists in Persian with a clear meaning.

*bat*:

از ميكده چون خواب برآيم كه بط مي
از گرمي هنگامه كبابست در اينجا

ز چشم بد خرابات مغان را حق نگهدارد
كه دارد هر بط مي شيرمرغ و جان آدم را

تا چند پي كبك بكهسار درآئي
در پاي خم امروز شكار بط مي كن

*batia*:

برخيز هان اي جاريه، مي در فکن در باطيه
آراسته کن مجلسي، از بلخ تا ارمينيه

مجلس عيش دل‌افروز مرا
باطيه بشکست و جام افتاد باز

قدح به کار نيايد، به رطل و باطيه خور
چنانکه گر بخرامي، نمي‌نوي، بخزي


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## Treaty

I thought I had made it clear that it is not that important what _bat _or any similar word mean in New Persian. Any secondary meaning could have developed within 1000 years since _batiake _was borrowed in Greek. So, listing mentions of them in New Persian poems doesn't help your case. It is important to see what it meant in Old and (early) Middle Persian.


CyrusSH said:


> It is not clear that Middle Persian _badag_ which actually means "something related to _bad_" because of its "-ag" suffix


Just randomly saying "it's not clear" doesn't help either. It can't be clearer because _bādag_ is attested in at least 4 languages (MP, Parthian, Aramaic and Arabic) to mean "wine" not "cup". I doubt your MP expertise surpasses the scholars of these four languages to clarify the meaning. By the way, the suffix -_ka_ has different functions not just "related to". One of them seems to be register-related (e.g., a common/informal person may say _bātaka_ but an educated/formal person may say _bāta_).


CyrusSH said:


> *batia*:


Now, this is interesting. Thanks. There are two variants: Arabic _bāṭīya_[_h_] and Persian _bādīya _(though the latter has other "dish" meanings as well). *If* they are cognate and the root is Persian, the original form should have been OP *_bātiya _(_bāti/bāta + iya _"related to / associated with / from"; the Arabic word must have been borrowed through OP>Aramaic not MP). Adding the -_ka _suffix results *_bātiyaka _(*_bādiyag_ in MP > _bādīya_ in NP). If so, this OP *_bātiyaka _might have been the source of Greek _batiake_. That is of course *if* this similarity is not coincidental. If my speculation is correct, then again we have an associative derivative of _bāta _(not _bāta _itself) to mean "cup". This is in line with my previous post.

Anyway, I'm wondering how this is even related to the topic of the thread. None of these has anything to do with "bottle". OP _ba_/_bā _wouldn't have changed into Greek _bu/bou/bo._


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## CyrusSH

If you seek for a Persian word with the same vowel of Latin _buttis_, then *bute* that I mentioned above, can be a better word, there are loanwords in Classical Syriac and Armenian languages with the same meaning. It means "cupel", the English word _cupel_ is itself from French _coupelle_ which means "small cup", compare to English _bottle_. The loanword in Armenian is _butak_ which shows the original Persian word probably meant "small _but_" too.


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## mundiya

I think these are two separate words. "but" (idol) is from the name of Buddha and not related to the word for bottle.


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## CyrusSH

mundiya said:


> I think these are two separate words. "but" (idol) is from the name of Buddha and not related to the word for bottle.



Persian _but_ with the meaning of "idol" has a shorter "u" sound and doesn't relate to _buta_, of course according to Dehkhoda dictionary, it is from the name of Avestan demon Buiti which is cognate with Sanskrit _bhuta_ "ghost", not Buddha.


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## mundiya

CyrusSH said:


> Persian _but_ with the meaning of "idol" has a shorter "u" sound and doesn't relate to _buta_, of course according to Dehkhoda dictionary, it is from the name of Avestan demon Buiti which is cognate with Sanskrit _bhuta_ "ghost", not Buddha.



Persian _but _"idol" is not related to the name of an Avestan demon.  Please see these threads: but "idol", Avestan: buiti, and Persian: بتا


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## Treaty

So, are you happy with concluding the discussion about all Persian words starting with _ba_? It would be helpful that they won't suddenly pop again later.

As for Persian _būta_, there are also Arabic _būṭa_/_būtaqa_/_būdaqa/bawtaqa _and Syriac/Late Aramaic _bwdq/būṭ/būṭā _(possibly from Arabic) and the Armenian _butak_ (based on your post), all meaning specifically "crucible" or generally "(deep) bowl". Unless there are two separate roots (one with final [k/q] and one without), they seem to be of a Middle Persian origin (because of that [k]). However, the question would be where the unattested MP *_būt_[_ag_] (or *_bōt_[_ag_]) came from? The supposable OP ancestor e.g. *_būta_(_ka_) or *_bauta_(_ka_) is not attested either and I don't of a semantically close root in any IIr. language. Another alternative is that the root is a wanderwort of the region.

The oldest attestation of Greek _boutis_ (or _bouttis_) is not much older than the presumed MP root (1st c. AD) either. Moreover, while it shares "deep" dimension of _būta _vessels, it completely lacks the specific usage ("crucible") and is also different in shape (cone vs round-bottom cylinder/hemisphere).

Therefore, if there was a common ancestor for both or one was borrowed from the other, it should have been much earlier before they both got a fixed meaning. Such an early borrowing could have allowed both languages to internalize the words and use their common morphology (e.g., -_ka_ suffix). So, we are back at square one. Any source can be possible: Greek, Persian or another language.

That is if they are related at all. They can be unrelated words for two object which coincidentally share a few characteristics.


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## Penyafort

CyrusSH said:


> Bottle: Online Etymology Dictionary
> 
> "narrow-necked hollow vessel for holding and carrying liquids," mid-14c., originally of leather, from Old French boteille (12c., Modern French bouteille), from Vulgar Latin butticula (*source also of Spanish botella*, Italian bottiglia), diminutive of Late Latin buttis "a cask," which is perhaps from Greek.



A little remark to that source.

Spanish didn't take _botella _from Latin BUTTICULA, as mentioned in there, because the evolution of the Latin word in Spanish yielded _botija_, an earthenware jug.

The word _botella_, now widely used in Spanish, came very late, from the French _bouteille_. Medieval Spanish used *frasco*, a Germanic word (as in German _Flasche_), which is used in most modern Romance languages for a rather small glass bottle or jar with more specific purposes (_frasco _in Spanish and Portuguese, _flascó _in Catalan, _flacon _in French, _fiasco _in Italian),

Same thing for the Portuguese _botelha _and Catalan _botella_. In these cases those could have been logical evolutions but actually came later from French too, as the traditional words in these languages are _garrafa _and _ampolla_, respectively.


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## Olaszinhok

Penyafort said:


> Catalan, _flacon _in French, _fiasco _in Italian),



Italian has both _fiasco_ and _flacone_ from French_ flacon_.


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## Sardokan1.0

Penyafort said:


> A little remark to that source.
> 
> Spanish didn't take _botella _from Latin BUTTICULA, as mentioned in there, because the evolution of the Latin word in Spanish yielded _botija_, an earthenware jug.
> 
> The word _botella_, now widely used in Spanish, came very late, from the French _bouteille_. Medieval Spanish used *frasco*, a Germanic word (as in German _Flasche_), which is used in most modern Romance languages for a rather small glass bottle or jar with more specific purposes (_frasco _in Spanish and Portuguese, _flascó _in Catalan, _flacon _in French, _fiasco _in Italian),
> 
> Same thing for the Portuguese _botelha _and Catalan _botella_. In these cases those could have been logical evolutions but actually came later from French too, as the traditional words in these languages are _garrafa _and _ampolla_, respectively.



In Sardinian the word for "Bottle" remained the Latin "Ampulla", while the Germanic "Flasche" exists also in Sardinian :
_
Ampulla = bottle
Ampullitta = little bottle
Fiasche, Frasche, Frascu = Flask
_
Something similar to _Bottella _exists in Sardinian as _"Botto, Bottu"_ = Jar, in Italian "Barattolo, Lattina"

Another interesting thing is that even if _Botto, Bottu_, derives from Latin _"Buttis"_ (cask, barrel), in Sardinian language the words used for "cask or barrel" doesn't derives from "Buttis" but from Latin "Cupa", in fact in Sardinian we have : 

_Cupa or Cuba_ = cask, barrel_
Cupeddu, Cubeddu = diminutive of Cupa, Cuba
Carradu = a kind of cask made to be transported with a cart (carru), there is even the verb "Carrare" (to carry), Carradu is also the Past Participle of Carrare
Carradellu = diminutive of Carradu_


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