# Persian and European Languages: Indo-European Roots



## Swettenham

I think there was a problem with my previous post.  I would like to know if anyone could help me compile a list of words that demonstrates strong links between English, Latin, Greek, French, Spanish and Farsi.

I've started it a bit myself:

Daughter: Dokhtar
Father: Pedar
New: Now
Six: Shish
Seven: Haft
star: Sitareh
Tooth: Dandoon
Two: Do
You: To


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## Outsider

Swettenham, you should find several sites with list of cognates on the net, for example this one.


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## konungursvia

Yes, much of this work has already been done, as in Outsider's site.


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## Swettenham

Hi, thanks for your input, but I searched the internet and didn't find what I'm looking for, including the side you suggested, Outsider (though it did include the cognate for "month").  I am looking not for an explanation of the Indo-European family, but a simple list of comparative vocabulary.  Almost all the Farsi-English dictionaries I have found list Farsi entries in Arabic script, and the only one that lists them in the Latin alphabet has only a small number of entries.  In any case, I don't want to go guessing my way through a dictionary.  I'd rather someone knowledgeable either contribute more words to this list or tell me of a site that has just such a list!

Thanks.


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## Tisia

Here is more:
Wind (Fre:vend): Baad
Who (Fre:qui): Ki
Month: Maah
Moon: Maah
Name: Naam
Is (Fre:est): Ast
Nine (Fre:neuf): Noh
Foot (Fre: pie): Paa
Kiss (Ita:bacio): Busse(h)
Dead (Fre:mort): Morde(h)
Ten (Fre:dix): Da(h)
Key (Fre:cle'): Klid
Bad: Bad
Lip: Lab
Chin: Chane(h)
What (Ita:che): Che
That (Fre:que): Ke
Door: Dar
Mother: Maadar
There are more. Especially in Kurdish language I see a lot of similarities.

Regards
Tisia


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## Lugubert

It would be easier for us to pick good examples if you told us the purpose of your question. If it is an important part of a large assignment, you should take a week and learn the alphabet.

In the process, be aware of loans (like afsar for officer) and false friends (Eng = P bad is just a coincidence).

Anyway, how about

Horse P asb Latin equus (Sanskrit ashva)
Band P band Ger Band Fre bande Swe band etc etc
Fairy P pari Swe fe
Five P panj Welsh pump Lat quinque Gre penta
Piss (n.) P peshab (ab=water) Swe piss

And this is just from a very casual look at the first three letters of a beginner's Persian wordlist.


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## DrLindenbrock

Yoke = Yugh (Fr. Joug, It. Giogo) (this is marvelous, if it is truly a cognate and not a coincidence...)

French Cent, Latin Centus vs. Persian Sad (probably an N before the final dental consonant disappeared sometime)

Also, Khodâ = God is similar to Germanic languages (God (eng.), Gott (German) (/g/ and /x/ sounds are often seen to be related etymologically)

Cow = Gâw
Warm = Garm
Mouse = Mush

Ps just a little correction, that I allow myself to do because we are in a languages forum so we must seek perfection....in French wind = vent.....a T and not a D....in any case, it is silent....


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## mansio

In vent the "t" is silent but it comes from Latin ventus where it is not silent at all.


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## Swettenham

Lugubert said:


> It would be easier for us to pick good examples if you told us the purpose of your question. If it is an important part of a large assignment, you should take a week and learn the alphabet.
> 
> In the process, be aware of loans (like afsar for officer) and false friends (Eng = P bad is just a coincidence).


Hi Lugubert. THis is purely for personal interest, because I'm fascinated both by Indo-European roots and Persian history. And you're right about false cognates and loan words. I hope that no one will post suggestions unless they have evidence that the word actually came from the same Indo-European origin (check a dictionary or other source on etymology).

Dr Lindenbrock, "yoke" is not a coincidence  THe Hindi word is "yoga," which you may recognize.

Does anyone know a cognate for "right" or "regal?" In Hindi "king" is something like "raja," so I think it may be similar in Farsi. Also, the Zoroastrian priestly caste were called the Magi, which is related to English "might" and Latin "magnus." Has a form of this root survived into modern Farsi? What is the word for "mother?"


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## Swettenham

Is "Khod/God" not a coincidence?  I have heard that "Good" is "Khoob."  Is there a relation there?


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## konungursvia

I agree that the number five is key in such comparisons. Even Polish has something sounding like "peench", similar to Greek pent and Hindi panch.


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## Lugubert

Swettenham said:
			
		

> Does anyone know a cognate for "right" or "regal?" In Hindi "king" is something like "raja," so I think it may be similar in Farsi. Also, the Zoroastrian priestly caste were called the Magi, which is related to English "might" and Latin "magnus." Has a form of this root survived into modern Farsi? What is the word for "mother?" [...] Is "Khod/God" not a coincidence? I have heard that "Good" is "Khoob." Is there a relation there?


'God' xudaa is compared to Sanskrit words beginning with swa-, so a link to God/Gott/God/gud... seems to be less probable. 'Good' xuub in Persian and Urdu come from Zend hvaapaao, and can be compared to Sanskrit su-apas, while for 'good' a PIE ghedh- is proposed: the x from a prefix, the g- belongs to the root. Thus probably no connection.

(I prefer 'x' for the scraping, because Hindi/Urdu has a kh, and it's boring to invoke the underlining kh for contrast.)

Tisia already brought you mother: maadar.

I suppose you are not a chess fan. (Swedish: schack.) The normal Persian king is the shah, which goes back a very long time (to at least ca. 500 BCE). In a dictionary you'll find the loan raaja, and I think it is possible that riiha 'king, prince, emperor' is inherited. The r- king seems to be absent from Slavic and Germanic languages, if you exclude loans.

I find nothing in modern Persian looking like it had developed from the Old Persian magush 'member of a priestly caste', but then again I don't know how ancient -g- or -sh- are supposed to behave.


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## HUMBERT0

Swettenham said:


> I think there was a problem with my previous post. I would like to know if anyone could help me compile a list of words that demonstrates strong links between English, Latin, Greek, French, Spanish and Farsi.
> 
> I've started it a bit myself:
> 
> Daughter: Dokhtar
> Father: Pedar
> New: Now
> Six: Shish
> Seven: Haft
> star: Sitareh
> Tooth: Dandoon
> Two: Do
> You: To


 
In Spanish:
Daughter: Dokhtar = Hija
Father: Pedar = Padre
New: Now = Nuevo
Six: Shish = Seis
Seven: Haft = Siete 
star: Sitareh = Estrella
Tooth: Dandoon = Diente
Two: Do = Dos
You: To = Tu


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## Swettenham

Lugubert said:


> 'God' xudaa is compared to Sanskrit words beginning with swa-, so a link to God/Gott/God/gud... seems to be less probable. 'Good' xuub in Persian and Urdu come from Zend hvaapaao, and can be compared to Sanskrit su-apas, while for 'good' a PIE ghedh- is proposed: the x from a prefix, the g- belongs to the root. Thus probably no connection.


That's what I thought.  My dictionary tells me that Germanic "Good" is actually related to "gather" and "together," from the root "ghedh--to unite, join, fit."  "God" is related to "giddy," from the root "gheu--to call, invoke." 



			
				lugubert said:
			
		

> I suppose you are not a chess fan.


THat's right. "Checkmate" means "the king is dead."  So, half of it is from an Indo-European root. 

Anyway, as to "right" and "regal," the "r- king" form actually did survive in Proto-Germanic (German: "reich"; Old English: "rice--realm"). But the basic meaning of the root "reg" related to "right" more than to "king."  Does the Farsi word for "right" also not carry this root?



			
				lugubert said:
			
		

> I find nothing in modern Persian looking like it had developed from the Old Persian magush 'member of a priestly caste', but then again I don't know how ancient -g- or -sh- are supposed to behave.


It's a shame, considering the illustrious history of "Magi."  It's the root of our word "magic."  But actually, I have to correct my previous statement: "Magush" is related to "might," "may," "machine," and "main," but not to "magnus."


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## Swettenham

Tisia said:


> There are more. Especially in Kurdish language I see a lot of similarities.


Thanks, Tisia  Are there even more similarities in Kurdish?  Maybe I should start another thread!


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## übermönch

Swettenham said:


> Thanks, Tisia  Are there even more similarities in Kurdish?  Maybe I should start another thread!


As to Kurdish, I remember quite some words similar to Russian ones, while looking through a dictionary. Slavic languages are supposed to be closer to Iranian and Arian ones being from the Satem branch.


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## Lugubert

Swettenham said:


> THat's right. "Checkmate" means "the king is dead." So, half of it is from an Indo-European root.


"Mate" is also from an IE root. With a negation in front, a-mrt, we get immortal etc. Persian marg, North Kurdish (Kurmanci) mirin  'death' are perhaps also from *mrt-. K(urmanci) Ma/pa/bro/sis aren't very transparent, but mak/bav/bira/xwîşk don't seem to be terribly far away from most other IE kinship terms.
 
From Tisia's list, adding Swedish and Kurmanci (some K. words may be alternatives to more commonly used borrowings etc.):
 
Wind (Fre:vent): Baad Swe vind K ba
Who (Fre:qui): Ki Swe vem K kî, all of them I think from PIE *kwo-
Month: Maah Swe månad K meh
Moon: Maah Swe måne K mang
Name: Naam Swe namn K nav
Is (Fre:est): Ast K e
Nine (Fre:neuf): Noh Swe nio K neh
Foot (Fre: pie): Paa Swe fot K pê
Kiss (Ita:bacio): Busse(h) Swe kyss, puss K paç
Dead (Fre:mort): Morde(h) Swe död K miri
Ten (Fre:dix): Da(h) Swe tio K deh
Key (Fre:cle'): Klid (Swe nyckel, but the musical clef = klav) K kilid 
Bad: Bad : no connection
Lip: Lab Swe läpp K lêv
Chin: Chane(h) (*genu- gives Swe kind 'cheek') K çene
What (Ita:che): Che Swe vad K çi
That (Fre:que): Ke  (Swe vad; cf. Lat like quod, quis...) K ku
Door: Dar Swe dörr K derî
Mother: Maadar Swe moder (formal), mor (oldish/dialectal), mamma
 
As a final (from me) remark, comparing randomly picked words won't always tell the true story of language relationships. A system of corresponding sounds will be more reliable for establishing true links, like if the pattern (for '10') Romance lgg. 'd', Germanic 't', German 'z' can be applied to other PIE (Proto-Indo-European) roots. It can. The pattern also works for for example PIE *dent- 'tooth': Fr dent, Swe tand, Ger Zahn, Pers dandān, K didan.
 
If, additionally, grammars show similar features, we may conclude a "genetic" relationship. This is a very difficult field, though. Just think of how many noun genders there are in today's IE languages:
 
Persian, English zero (or is that = 1?), Hindi, French, Swedish 2, German, Russian 3. (But Swedish has 4 different 3rd person personal singular pronouns, and there are some dialects where you still find 3 genders.)


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## Swettenham

Lugubert said:


> As a final (from me) remark, comparing randomly picked words won't always tell the true story of language relationships. A system of corresponding sounds will be more reliable for establishing true links, like if the pattern (for '10') Romance lgg. 'd', Germanic 't', German 'z' can be applied to other PIE (Proto-Indo-European) roots. It can. The pattern also works for for example PIE *dent- 'tooth': Fr dent, Swe tand, Ger Zahn, Pers dand?n, K didan.


I guess this explains some things that confuse me.  For example, according to my dictionary, Latin _loqui_, "to speak," comes from PIE _tolkw-_, "to speak," but English _talk_, despite being practically identical in form and meaning to the aforementioned root, is actually said to derive from PIE _del-_, "to recount, count."  In other words, the experts must have decided that, tempting as it is to say that _talk_ comes from _tolkw_, it wouldn't fit in with the consistency of changes.  PIE "d" to English "t," on the other hand, follows the established pattern.  But of course, couldn't there be exceptions to the rule? 

Also, as you say, "comparing randomly picked words" won't reveal much, which is why I didn't want to go guessing my way through a Farsi-English dictionary.  I was counting on the fact that someone here would know a thing or two about this stuff!

Well, I was hoping for a much longer list, but this one is fascinating as it is.  Thanks for your help everyone!


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## Tisia

Hi
There are the words *Kia* (King, protector), *Kian* (kings) and *Kiana* (king but for female name). According to some "Kiana" stands for the four elements of life "*Water, air, earth and fire*".

Regards
Tisia




Swettenham said:


> Hi Lugubert.......... In Hindi "king" is something like "raja," so I think it may be similar in Farsi.........


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## Tisia

übermönch said:


> As to Kurdish, I remember quite some words similar to Russian ones, while looking through a dictionary. Slavic languages are supposed to be closer to Iranian and Arian ones being from the Satem branch.


 


Swettenham said:


> Thanks, Tisia  Are there even more similarities in Kurdish? Maybe I should start another thread!


 
Those words I mentioned for the Persian similarities, their pronunciation in Kurdish is even closer to the other IE languages. 
Yes, as übermönch said, there are also similar words in Slavic and Kurdish languages. I am not sure but I think the reason goes back to before history when people escaped from Kurdish areas to Slavic-speaking areas due to attacks. 

Regards
Tisia


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## Tisia

Lugubert said:


> (Kurmanci) ............


I just want to mention that Kermanji is a bit different from the Kurdish languages spoken in Iran. Some times I even find it hard to understand someone speaking Kermanji. 

My mom is from Kermanshah (a province in W.Iran) and kermanshehi is very close to Persian. Once in Finland she had needed an interpreter. Many people don't know the difference between Kermanshahi and Kermanji. So from the translators' center, they had found her one who spoke Kermanji not Kermanshahi. When they had started speaking, my mom hadn't been able to understand any thing

Tisia


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## Swettenham

I found a useful Wikipedia page.  The list there has several new Persian words-- could someone translate these words?

PIE: *taron- "thunder" ENG: thunder; PER: tundar
PIE: *men- "mind" ENG: mind; PER: mainy?hay
PIE: *deru- "tree" ENG: tree; PER: deraxt
PIE: *h3reg- "ruler" ENG: right, PER: rahst 

Here's a cumulative list so far with Latin, Greek and Sanskrit cognates where possible (could anyone fill in the ones I don't have?):

Band: band (Ger: Band, Fre: bande, Swe: band)
Brother: Baradar (Latin: frater, Sanskrit: Bhratr)
Chin: Chane(h)
Daughter: Dokhtar (Greek: thugater, Sanskrit: duhitr)
Dead: Morde(h) (Sanskrit: mrta, Latin: mors, mort-).
Door: Dar (Greek: thura, Sanskrit: Dvar)
Eight: Hasht (Latin: octo, Skt: asta)
Fairy: Pari (Swe: fe)
Father: Pedar (Latin: pater, Sanskrit: Pitr)
Foot: Paa (Sanskrit: pada, Greek: podi) 
Five: Panj (Grk: penta, Skt: pancan)
Cow: Gâw
Horse: Asb (Latin: equus, Sanskrit ashva)
Is: Ast (Latin: est, Sanskrit asti)
Key: Klid (Latin: clavis)
Kiss: Busse(h) (Latin: basium)
Lip: Lab (Latin: labium)
Mother: Maadar (Sanskrit: matr, Latin: mater)
Month: Maah (Latin: mensis, Sanskrit: masa)
Mouse: Mush (Latin: mus, Sanskrit: mus)
Name: Naam (Latin: nomen, Sanskrit: naman)
Nine: Noh (Latin: novem, Skt: navan)
New: Now (Latin: novus, Skt: nava)
Piss: Peshab (ab=water) (Swe: piss)
Six: Shish (Latin: sex, Skt: sas)
Seven: Haft (Greek: hepta, Skt: saptan)
star: Sitareh (Greek: aster, Skt: strbhis)
Ten: Da(h) (Grk: deka, Skt: dashan)
That: Ke (Lat: quid)
Tooth: Dandan (Latin: dentis, Skt: dantam)
Two: Do (Latin: duo, Skt: dvi)
Warm: Garm
What: Che (Latin: quid, Skt: kim)
Who: Ki (Latin: qui, Skt: kah)
Wind: Baad (Skt: vaataH, Latin: ventus)
Yoke: Yugh (Latin iugum, Skt: yuj)
You: To (Latin: tu, Skt: tvam)


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## Tisia

Can you write down here those you don't know so that can translate them for you. I couldn't guess which ones yuo don't know

Regards
Tisia


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## Swettenham

Swettenham said:


> PIE: *taron- "thunder" ENG: thunder; PER: tundar
> PIE: *men- "mind" ENG: mind; PER: mainy?hay
> PIE: *deru- "tree" ENG: tree; PER: deraxt
> PIE: *h3reg- "ruler" ENG: right, PER: rahst


These are the ones I wanted translated, Tisia. Thanks


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## Tisia

Hi Swettenham
*rahst* or *raast *means 'right', 'straight'. It is more used for the second one.
*tundar* is the same as 'thunder' in English. *Derakht* or *deraxt* is equivalent to english 'tree'. But the  *mainyāhay* which is translated as 'mind' is new to me as well. The common word for 'mind' is *zehn *or* nazar*. I haven't heard that word before.
If this is not what you want, please tell me.

Regards
Tisia


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## Swettenham

Tisia said:


> Hi Swettenham
> *rahst* or *raast *means 'right', 'straight'. It is more used for the second one.
> *tundar* is the same as 'thunder' in English. *Derakht* or *deraxt* is equivalent to english 'tree'. But the  *mainy?hay* which is translated as 'mind' is new to me as well. The common word for 'mind' is *zehn *or* nazar*. I haven't heard that word before.
> If this is not what you want, please tell me.
> 
> Regards
> Tisia


Thanks a lot, Tisia.  Sorry if I wasn't clear before; the reason why I asked for translation is because the definition given is the meaning of the PIE root, not necessarily the derivatives.  Hence, the root "hreg- ruler" became "right" in English, which has little to do with "ruler."  If I didn't know English, I might assume that "right" means "ruler."  So I didn't want to jump to conclusions and assume that the Persian words meant the same as the English ones!

Thanks to your help and others', this is a fascinating list we've compiled!


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## Bienvenidos

Hi everyone 

I haven't been able to log on lately: sorry. I agree with all of Tisia's comments (as far as the word for "mind", it's usually nezar, as in *nezarit*, which translates as your opinion, in your view, etc.). Let me know if you need any more help.

Bienvenidos


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## Alijsh

Hi everybody,

Do you have any list from verbs? I remember these for now:

*mor*dan (Afghans: *mur*dan) - _French_: *mour*ir
*dâ*dan - _Fr_: *donn*er
*geref*tan (Afghans: *girif*tan) - _En_: to grab (it has *girap*tan in middle Persian)
*bu*dan - _En_: to be

(Persian infinitives end in either *dan* or *tan*)

***
I add:

*sotun* - stone (It means _pillar, column_ in Persian) 
*aknun* - _German_: nun (it has been also nun in Middle Persian)
*zânu* - _French_: genou
*târik* - dark


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## roh3x2n

Alijsh said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> 
> (Persian infinitives end in either *dan* or *tan*)
> 
> ***
> I add:
> 
> *sotun* - stone (It means _pillar, column_ in Persian)
> *aknun* - _German_: nun (it has been also nun in Middle Persian)
> *zânu* - _French_: genou
> *târik* - dark



Well, in German almost all verbs have the ending en and persian has something like ean or taan as you said.


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## Bienvenidos

The word for "orange" in both English and Spanish (naranja) comes from the Persian *nârinj*.

Here's a link of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_Iranian_origin


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