# office / desk



## elroy

Standard Arabic has a frustrating ambiguity: مكتب (“maktab”) means both “office” and “desk.”

In Palestinian Arabic, this word is almost always used to mean “office.”  Some people use it for “desk”; however, the English borrowing دِسْك (“desk”) is also used to mean “desk.”  The fact that this was borrowed shows that it’s really inconvenient to use the same word for “office” and “desk”!

Does any other language have the same word for both?


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## bwac14

In French, _bureau_ means both "office" and "desk".


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## elroy

Wow, I didn’t know that!


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## apmoy70

Greek has:

*«Γραφείο»* [ɣraˈfi.o̞] (neut.) --> _office, bureau, the furniture at which one can read, write or do other work_ < Classical deverbative neuter noun *«γραφεῖον» grăpʰeîŏn* --> _writing instrument_ < Classical v. *«γράφω» grắpʰō*.
E.g FBI in Greek is *«Ομοσπονδιακό Γραφείο Ερευνών»* [o̞.mo̞.s̪po̞n.ði.aˈko̞ ɣraˈfi.o̞ e̞.ɾe̞ˈvno̞n]

Desk is translated as either (i) *«γραφείο»* (when referring to the furniture) or (ii) *«θρανίο»* [θraˈni.o̞] (neut.) --> _school desk_ < Classical diminutive neuter noun *«θρανίον» tʰrăníŏn* --> _bench_ < Classical masc. noun *«θρᾶνος» tʰrânŏs* --> _supportive beam_ (according to Beekes the word is related to θρόνος (tʰrónŏs), _throne_, whence the assumption that θρᾶνος originally meant _support_. Possibly from PIE *dʰerh₂- _to support, hold_, with cognate the Skt. धरति (dharati), _to hold_; Beekes doesn't find it convincing and argues for its Pre-Greek origin).


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## Linnets

bwac14 said:


> In French, _bureau_ means both "office" and "desk".


Same in Old Italian: _burò_.


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## AutumnOwl

bwac14 said:


> In French, _bureau_ means both "office" and "desk".


Once upon a time Swedish "borrowed" the French word and changed the spelling to byrå. Today we use the word mainly for a chest of drawers, but it's still functions as "office" in compound single-word verbs such as resebyrå (travel agency), advokatbyrå (law firm), begravningsbyrå (funeral home).
As for a desk (or something used for writing, or a home office once), there is _klaffbyrå_, fall-front chest / secretary desk.
Add: when we talk about a desk, we use skrivbord (writing table), but there are still secretary desks, both new and antique.


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## Welsh_Sion

bwac14 said:


> In French, _bureau_ means both "office" and "desk".


English likewise has adopted these:

bureau - a writing desk (English English); a chest of drawers (US English)
bureau - an office for transacting business; a government department

Cymraeg/Welsh

desg - for the writing desk
biwro - for the government department
swyddfa - for the office (swydd 'job' + ma 'place')


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## AndrasBP

We have two different words for "office" and "desk", but both are derived from the verb "write" (= "ír"), just like in Arabic:

iroda = office, lit. "writing place"
íróasztal = desk, lit. "writing table"

"Bureau" was not borrowed into Hungarian in any form.


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## elroy

AndrasBP said:


> lit. "writing place"


This is what مكتب means literally too!


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## Kaoss

Welsh_Sion said:


> English likewise has adopted these:
> 
> bureau - a writing desk (English English); a chest of drawers (US English)
> bureau - an office for transacting business; a government department


Similar to "Cabinet" which is both a piece of furniture a goberment meeting...


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## Welsh_Sion

Kaoss said:


> Similar to "Cabinet" which is both a piece of furniture a goberment meeting...


Indeed, (government meeting, you mean of course).

Often, a cryptic clue in English over here  will read 'Cabinet maker' - where the answer is the name of a Prime Minister!


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## DearPrudence

bwac14 said:


> In French, _bureau_ means both "office" and "desk".


Yes, it actually has even more senses than this! 
You might be interested to know that "bureau" comes from "burel", coming itself from "bure", a thick material/rug that was put on a table to keep the accounts (?). Then, "bureau" referred to the table/desk itself, and then the room...
bureau — Wiktionnaire


> _(1150)_ _burel_ « étoffe grossière » ; _(1316)_ _bureau_ « tapis sur lequel on fait des comptes » d'où :
> _(1361)_ « la table elle-même où l'on fait les comptes » ;
> _(1495)_ « lieu où l'on fait les comptes »  [...]
> Soit dérivé de _bure_ avec le suffixe _-el_ (devenu par la suite _-eau_) ; soit dérivé en _-ellus_ du latin _bura_.


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## Awwal12

AutumnOwl said:


> Once upon a time Swedish "borrowed" the French word and changed the spelling to byrå. Today we use the word mainly for a chest of drawers, but it's still functions as "office" in compound single-word verbs such as resebyrå (travel agency), advokatbyrå (law firm), begravningsbyrå (funeral home).


It's pretty similar in Russian: бюро (byuró) means a particular kind of a desk as well as "office" in certain fields and stable expressions (e.g. бюро находок, "lost-and-found", lit. "office of findings").

In general, Russian doesn't have single separate words for both "desk" or "office". The generic word for a desk is the same as for a table, i.e. "stol". A school desk is парта (párta, of unclear etymology, possibly from German "apart"). A more typical desk will be described just as письменный стол (pís'mennyi stol, i.e. "writing table"), or, contextually, рабочий стол (rabóchiy stol, "work table"); other clarifying attributives are also possible.

As for the office:
- a room owned or rented by a private enterprise where a group of people works is, basically, офис (ófis, from Eng. "office"); the older loan контора (kontóra, from Germ. "Kontor") is practically out of use, and its meaning seemingly shifts to "a (suspicious) small company". Curiously, the diminutive of the latter, конторка (kontórka), meant a high sloped desk historically;
- a personal office, private or state-owned, is typically кабинет (kabinét, from Germ. "Kabinett");
- a central state office may be called several words - канцелярия (kantselyáriya < Polish kancelaria), министерство (ministérstvo), ведомство (védomstvo, lit. ~"knowing"), управление (upravléniye, lit. "governance", ultimately from právit' - "to keep or make sth right", "to steer", "to rule", "to manage", "to fix");
- a personal position in a state hierarchy is пост (post, also "a guard post", "one's station", from Fr. роstе) or должность (dólzhnost', lit. ~"obligation", from dólzhnyi, dólzhen "obliged", "that must do sth").


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## Sheikh_14

In Urdu we seldom use maktab for an office but we do use it for a desk or funnily enough a school (in the olden days).


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## Rallino

In Turkish, "mektep" is an outdated word for "elementary school". It's also slang for "brothel".

For an office, we have both "ofis" and "büro", but the former is used more often. 

There is also the term "yazıhane", which literally means "writings house", that is a synonym, but this is an outdated word that is nowadays mostly used for the offices where you can buy bus tickets for travelling between different provinces.

For a desk, just like in Russian, we can say "çalışma masası" (work table) or "yazı masası" (writings table). A desk at school is a "sıra", which has also the meanings of "row" or "series".


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## elroy

Rallino said:


> In Turkish, "mektep" is an outdated word for "elementary school". It's also slang for "brothel".


I will add this to my list of Arabic borrowings in Turkish that have undergone significant semantic shifts (and that therefore sound very strange to me when used in context). 

Other examples are _memleket_ ("kingdom" in Arabic) and _müsait_ ("helper" in Arabic).


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## Rallino

elroy said:


> I will add this to my list of Arabic borrowings in Turkish that have undergone significant semantic shifts (and that therefore sound very strange to me when used in context  Other examples are _memleket_ ("kingdom" in Arabic) and _müsait_ ("helper" in Arabic).


And misafir, "guest" in Turkish, but "traveller" in Arabic?

Also, someone who is a government officer would refer to their office as "daire", (circle). That's from Arabic, but do you also use it for office?


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## elroy

Rallino said:


> And misafir, "guest" in Turkish, but "traveller" in Arabic?





Rallino said:


> Also, someone who is a government officer would refer to their office as "daire", (circle). That's from Arabic, but do you also use it for office?


Yes, in limited contexts.  For example, in Palestinian Arabic the office that in many US states is called the "Department of Motor Vehicles," where you can take a driving exam, renew your vehicle registration, etc., is called دائرة السير ("dāʔirt is-sēr", literally "circle of the traffic").  Does the Turkish equivalent use "daire"?  I note with interest that this time you didn't borrow the silent ة as a "t," so you got it right this time.


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## Rallino

Oh yes, that's like the name of the institution. We have those as well, for example "Vergi Dairesi" is a Tax Office.

But we refer to any type of government owned work place as "daire" as well, even if the institution doesn't have that word in it. Someone who works in the Ministry for example could easily say "Oh I forgot my wallet at the daire".

For us, ofis/büro is rather part of a private sector vocabulary; and the government counterpart is "daire".


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## elroy

Rallino said:


> But we refer to any type of government owned work place as "daire" as well, even if the institution doesn't have that word in it. Someone who works in the Ministry for example could easily say "Oh I forgot my wallet at the daire".


I think some dialects have this extended use as well.  I don't think Palestinian Arabic does.


Rallino said:


> For us, ofis/büro is rather part of a private sector vocabulary; and the government counterpart is "daire".


It's interesting that all three are borrowings, and they're form three different languages.


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## Rallino

elroy said:


> It's interesting that all three are borrowings, and they're form three different languages


Yeah, welcome to the pot-pourri that Turkish is.


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## Sheikh_14

Rallino said:


> In Turkish, "mektep" is an outdated word for "elementary school". It's also slang for "brothel".
> 
> For an office, we have both "ofis" and "büro", but the former is used more often.
> 
> There is also the term "yazıhane", which literally means "writings house", that is a synonym, but this is an outdated word that is nowadays mostly used for the offices where you can buy bus tickets for travelling between different provinces.
> 
> For a desk, just like in Russian, we can say "çalışma masası" (work table) or "yazı masası" (writings table). A desk at school is a "sıra", which has also the meanings of "row" or "series".


Schools of thought and elementary schools are exactly what Urdu usage of maktab is restricted to besides a desk. For instance tifl E maktab is a school child never a high school kid. Your comments were remarkably insightful.

This is fascinating how did an elementary school come to become a brothel? That is quite a sordid linguistic turnaround. Were these brothels notorious for underage girls.


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## Sheikh_14

elroy said:


> Yes, in limited contexts.  For example, in Palestinian Arabic the office that in many US states is called the "Department of Motor Vehicles," where you can take a driving exam, renew your vehicle registration, etc., is called دائرة السير ("dāʔirt is-sēr", literally "circle of the traffic"). Does the Turkish equivalent use "daire"? I note with interest that this time you didn't borrow the silent ة as a "t," so you got it right this time.


That's because alot of these terms were Persianised by the time they reached Ottoman Turkish thence they're Persianised Arabic terms brought into Turkish. Daa'ira isn't a word that has been Persianised. Thence why daa'ira remains daa'ira in every language it is utilised in never daa'irat.


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## Sheikh_14

Rallino said:


> Yeah, welcome to the pot-pourri that Turkish is.


And we love it, for it.

Don't you also use daira for an apartment?


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## elroy

Sheikh_14 said:


> That's because alot of these terms were Persianised by the time they reached Ottoman Turkish thence they're Persianised Arabic terms brought into Turkish. Daa'ira isn't a word that has been Persianised. Thence why daa'ira remains daa'ira in every language it is utilised in never daa'irat.


Ah, so only Persian is to blame for all those superfluous t's?


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## Sheikh_14

It appears to be the case other examples are risaalat (apostleship), bashaarat (glad tidings), basically every other word that ends in a taa marbuuta.


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## elroy

Sheikh_14 said:


> basically every other word that ends in a taa marbuuta


Yes, indeed!  You can't imagine how dissonant this sounds to an Arabic speaker (well, to this Arabic speaker, anyway).


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## Sheikh_14

I can understand that but in other languages it helps the flow so it hasn't been done for no rhyme or reason. Jannat and Jannah being another example i.e. heaven 🙌.


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## Włoskipolak 72

In Polish it's a funny thing about office / desk .

office = biuro , gabinet , sekretariat.
desk =  biurko

*biurko do biura = *office desk 

biurowiec = office building

but

bureau , escritoire = sekretarzyk


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## numerator

*biurko do biura* !!!
I couldn't believe it was a real expression but apparently it is


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## AutumnOwl

Awwal12 said:


> In general, Russian doesn't have single separate words for both "desk" or "office". The generic word for a desk is the same as for a table, i.e. "stol". A school desk is парта (párta, of unclear etymology, possibly from German "apart"). A more typical desk will be described just as письменный стол (pís'mennyi stol, i.e. "writing table"), or, contextually, рабочий стол (rabóchiy stol, "work table"); other clarifying attributives are also possible.


In Swedish "stol" means chair, often the (wooden) kitchen and dining table chairs.


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## Awwal12

AutumnOwl said:


> In Swedish "stol" means chair


Of course, it's a Proto-Germanic word (cf. Germ. Stuhl, Eng. stool). Russian "стол" in the archaic meaning "throne" may be related (an early influence?). As for стол "table" (a dining table, prototypically), ahvalj discussed its possible etymologies not so long ago. It may be a development more or less parallel to the Germanic *stōlaz, or entirely unrelated, or a result of semantic contamination between different words.

Speaking about stools, Russian has loaned Middle Low German stol as стул (stul "chair").


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