# EN: don't need / needn't / need not



## tiyo

Hi
I'm new in this forum and hope enjoy English with all of us. Then, my first question comes from a strange thing I saw in a grammar exercise book from Malaysia. 
[…]
how is the negative form of need because it was written : " You don't need to buy your ticket." I thought it was "needn't".
I'm little bit confuse so if you can light me, I'll be grateful.
Thanks

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads have been merged to create this one.


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## b1947420

Welcome to the forum.

[…]


> You don't need to buy your ticket." I thought it was "needn't


"You don't need ...." or "you do not need ..." is the same as "needn't" but there is a nuance.

If we say "you don't (do not) need" it means there is no _requirement_ to carry out the action. If we say "needn't (need not)" then we are meaning that there is no _obligation._
This is in my opinion ofcourse -- it will be interesting to see what others think.


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## Havfruen

*Need not = needn't*; this is the *subjunctive*. It is not used much in modern American English. My sense is the subjunctive is used more in British English. It sounds a bit archaic but is still used in more polite, formal language or to add emphasis. 

Either *don't need* or *needn't* can be used in your example sentence and both are correct. Their meanings are virtually equivalent to me.


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## sound shift

b1947420 said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> […]
> "You don't need ...." or "you do not need ..." is the same as "needn't" but there is a nuance.
> 
> If we say "you don't (do not) need" it means there is no _requirement_ to carry out the action. If we say "needn't (need not)" then we are meaning that there is no _obligation._
> This is in my opinion ofcourse -- it will be interesting to see what others think.


I would say that the distinction is between necessity and obligation. Of course, there is an element of both in many situations.

It is worth pointing out that "need" can be a full verb or a modal verb.

*Full verb*: "You don't need to do it today." (There's no necessity.)
*Modal verb*: "You needn't do it today." (I won't mind if you don't do it today.)


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## Rami_111

I don't hear much difference of meaning between the two.  Americans will say "don't need to" or very occasionally "need not" (for emphasis) but will almost never use the contraction "needn't."  The British will.


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## Jerail

The form "needn't (need not)" is a little bit out of date. It's more common in British English than in American English. To me, the nuance is almost too subtle to describe. It just depends on where you want to place the emphasis.


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## sound shift

"Needn't/need not" is not out-of-date here. Things become out-of-date when something better comes along to replace them. The forms that some people use in place of "needn't/need not" are no improvement.


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## Mark01

Hi there !

Could you please explain to me the difference between :

1)You don't need to behave like me.

And:

2)You needn't behave like me.

Thanks !


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## Zoulllien

A native speaker will have to confirm, but I think "need" used to be used like an auxiliary (is/isn't - have/haven't - need/needn't ...) but is now used like a normal verb, with a don't negative. So "don't need" is simply more modern than "needn't".


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## quinoa

"Don't need to" is objective (it's related to the fact only) whereas "needn't" is subjective (the speaker gives his own point of view)


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## chintz

In your first example above it seems like you are apologising for your behaviour and saying "It's OK, you don't have to be like me, I'm a fool". 
In your second example, it seems more like it would be said in a stern way, like saying somebody is silly to behave like you. 

In some ways they're interchangeable - 
"You needn't worry about fetching milk, I have some" 
is just as good as "You don't need to worry about milk, I have some"

However, 
"You don't need your coat as it's so warm" works,
but "You need not your coat as it is so warm" just sounds wrong.


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## sejean

I think most English speakers would have a hard time explaining when they would use "don't need to" and when they would use "needn't" -- it's a case of "we just know what sounds right." But here are a few thoughts on it:

First, "needn't" is more likely to be written than said. It sounds more formal than "don't need to."

Both "don't need to" and "needn't" can be used for subjective statements.

Ex:
You don't need to get so upset!
You needn't get so upset!

And I think both _can_ be used to state a fact, but "don't need to" probably works better and is the more natural choice in such cases.

Ex:
You don't need to wear a coat and tie at this restaurant.
You needn't wear a coat and tie at this restaurant.

There is a slight difference in the feel of these two sentences. "You don't need to" is simply stating a fact -- the restaurant doesn't require a coat and tie. There is no suggestion of whether you should or shouldn't wear them; it just states that you don't have to. 

"You needn't..." essentially expresses the same thing but it's closer to "Don't bother wearing a coat and tie..." There is, in fact, a more "subjective" feel to the sentence. But it's subtle.

Now that I think about, "You needn't..." often expresses "Don't bother..."; "It's not worth it..."; "There's no point in..."

Ex:
You needn't worry about that. (ie, There's no point in worrying about that.)
You needn't go to so much trouble. (ie, Don't bother going to so much trouble.)
You needn't get so offended; I was only joking. (ie, It's not worth getting so offended over a silly joke.)

If you want to keep things simple, I don't think you ever have to say "needn't." (That is, you needn't say needn't. ) In fact, I'm sure there are plenty of English speakers who never do.


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## Keith Bradford

Too much thinking addles the brain.  _*Don't need to do = needn't do.*_  There is no difference in meaning in spoken and informal BE.

In formal writing, you wouldn't use the contracted form, and _*do not need to do*_ is the only possibility.

This usage only applied to need+verb.  When followed by a noun, _*do not / don't need something*_ are the only possibilities.


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## sejean

Keith Bradford said:


> In formal writing, you wouldn't use the contracted form, and _*do not need to do*_ is the only possibility.



What about "need not"? 

"Need not" is used in certain fixed expressions such as "______s need not apply." Which means "_____s, don't bother applying..." not "______s, you don't need/have to apply..." At least it does in American English.


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## JeffPSU

"Needn't" sounds very British to me - it would sound a little superior coming from an American.


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## quinoa

Isn't there a difference between :
- "You needn't stay" (*I* give you my opinion and *I *give you a sort of authorization not to stay)
- and "You don't need to stay" (There's no obligation for you to stay, no dependence on *my* opinion) ?

which is similar to the difference between :
- "He needn't have run, the meeting won't begin until 3 o'clock. (The fact is that "he ran")
- and "He didn't need to run." (which often means "he didn't run").


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## sejean

quinoa, your observation meshes with the difference in the way I use needn't and don't need to. I don't know if there are any rules about this or if it's just a custom of use.

Here are some sentences where I would never say needn't. They are simple objective statements of fact.

You don't need to be a lawyer to be appointed to the US Supreme Court.
You don't need to be 21 to drink wine in France.
I don't need to take the GRE (Graduate Record Exam) to apply to business school.

Needn't is more commonly used when the speaker is expressing some judgment and/or giving permission. My impression is that it often means something close to shouldn't:

"You needn't feel guilty."
"You needn't get so worked up about it."
"We needn't panic."
"You needn't follow his advice."

But "don't need to" can also be used in the above statements.

This distinction may be particular to AE. Since we don't use "needn't" that much, maybe it has stuck around in certain types of expressions. 

As JeffPSU pointed out, you don't hear "needn't" very much in the US at all; to the extent that I use it, it's in writing ("needn't" in a forum post or an email, "need not" in formal writing). In my opinion anyone who is confused about the difference can simply avoid saying "needn't".


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