# خبر ليس المقدم / خبر ليس مقدم



## Ibn Nacer

Hello

In the analysis we sometimes see this "خبر ليس مقدم" and other times we see that "خبر ليس المقدم". 

Which is correct ? 

I thought that  "خبر ليس"  was an annexation and that the word ليس was definite because it is considered as a proper name. And the word مقدم is an adjective of خبر so it should be definite.

What do you think?

Merci.


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## إسكندراني

مقدم is a وصف of the إضافة structure خبر ليس which might be considered indefinite or definite by the looks of it. Either that or you've misread a sentence 'خبر ليس is مقدم'


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## AndyRoo

Perhaps they are both correct and one means _the khabar of *a* leading laysa_ and the other means _the khabar of *the* leading laysa - _​which mean the same really.


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## Ibn Nacer

إسكندراني said:


> مقدم is a وصف of the إضافة structure خبر ليس which might be considered indefinite or definite by the looks of it. Either that or you've misread a sentence 'خبر ليس is مقدم'



Ok, I did not know that the word ليس could be considered as indefinite so in this case the word خبر is indefinite and the word مقدم which is an adjective of خبر  must be indefinite.



AndyRoo said:


> Perhaps they are both correct and one means _the khabar of *a* leading laysa_ and the other means _the khabar of *the* leading laysa - _​which mean the same really.



Yes but it seems to me that the word مقدم is an adjective of خبر and not an adjective of ليس




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Examples (source : http://www.schoolarabia.net/arabic/alaf3al_naqesa/7okom1.htm) :

*ليس في                          البستان شجر 
ليس: فعل ماضٍ ناقص مبني على                          الفتح                      
                        في البستان: جار ومجرور في محل نصب خبر ليس مقدم 
                        شجر: اسم كان مؤخر مرفوع

كان في                           المزرعة حارسها  
في المزرعة: شبه جملة جار ومجرور                          في محل نصب خبر كان مقدم
                        حارس: اسم كان مؤخر مرفوع وهو مضاف
                        ها: في محل جر بالإضافة*​


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## Ibn Nacer

Suffix pronoun in red refer to what ? 

سلي إن جهلت الناس عنا  ---  وعنهم    فليس سواء عالم وجهول
...
سواء : خبر ليس مقدم عليها منصوب بالفتحة الظاهرة 
عالم : اسم ليس مؤخر عن الخبر مرفوع بالضمة
وجهول : الواو حرف عطف ، جهول معطوف على ما قبله 




--------------------------

ـ وجوب التقدم على الفعل ، واسمه ، أو التوسط بينهما ، وذلك إذا كان الاسم متصلا بضمير يعود على بعض الخبر ، ولم يكن ثمة ما يمنع من التقدم على   الفعل . نحو : كان في الحديقة زوارها ، وأمسى خادمَ فاطمة زوجها .بنصب " خادم " على أنه خبر أمسى مقدم عليها
​ 



Source : http://www.drmosad.com/index31.htm


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## إسكندراني

I'm not saying ليس is correctly considered indefinite, I'm saying that's probably why the expression is set up like that.
In fact, since ليس is a حرف , I don't think the concept of definiteness really applies to it.


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## AndyRoo

Ibn Nacer said:


> Yes but it seems to me that the word مقدم is an adjective of خبر and not an adjective of ليس



Oh yes. Sorry. Now I see it means "a leading khabar of laysa" or "the leading khabar of laysa". So yes it all rests on whether ليس is always considered definite or not. Where did you see it was considered a proper noun?


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## Ibn Nacer

إسكندراني said:


> I'm not saying ليس is correctly considered indefinite, I'm saying that's probably why the expression is set up like that.
> In fact, since ليس is a حرف , I don't think the concept of definiteness really applies to it.



In all cases if the word  مقدم (which is indefinite) is an adjective of the word خبر then this implies that the word خبر is also indefinite, right ?


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## Ibn Nacer

AndyRoo said:


> Perhaps they are both correct and one means _the khabar of *a* leading laysa_ and the other means _the khabar of *the* leading laysa - _​which mean the same really.


Thank you. Nowhere, I thought it but I was not sure.


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## AndyRoo

Ibn Nacer said:


> In all cases if the word  مقدم (which is indefinite) is an adjective of the word خبر then this implies that the word خبر is also indefinite, right ?



That is correct of course, but if ليس is indefinite then in the idaafa خبر ليس the word خبر  would be indefinite too, I believe. Whereas if ليس is definite, خبر would be definite in the same idaafa. So we need to know if ليس is definite, indefinite, both or neither...


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## Ibn Nacer

Thank you.

Yes and it seems that the word ليس is considered as indefinite.


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## AndyRoo

Ibn Nacer said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Yes and it seems that the word ليس is considered as indefinite.



Why do you say this? As far as I can see from the above examples, we can't deduce this.


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## Ibn Nacer

AndyRoo said:


> Why do you say this? As far as I can see from the above examples, we can't deduce this.



Because in خبر ليس مقدم the word مقدم which is indefinite is an adjective of the word خبر  so the word خبر is considered as indefinite, and if the word خبر is indefinite then this implies that the word ليس is indefinite, what do you think ?


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## AndyRoo

Yes I agree with that, but you say you have also seen خبر ليس المقدم which implies ليس is definite I think. So I don't think we are any nearer answering your original question as to which is correct. Maybe they both are.


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## cherine

Hi guys,

I'm sorry, I didn't read all the details of your discussion, so forgive me if I repeat something that was said before. I just wanted to post 2 quick comments/replies:


Ibn Nacer said:


> Suffix pronoun in red refer to what ?
> خبر ليس مقدم عليها منصوب بالفتحة الظاهرة
> ​


​The pronoun refers to laysa. It means: خبر ليس مقدَّم على ليس = placed before it. (khabar de laysa placé avant elle, ou: khabar de laysa qui *la* devance).


AndyRoo said:


> Yes I agree with that, but you say you have also seen خبر ليس المقدم which implies ليس is definite I think. So I don't think we are any nearer answering your original question as to which is correct. Maybe they both are.


The al- her defines the khabar, not laysa (note that laysa is treated as a feminine word).


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## AndyRoo

cherine said:


> The al- her defines the khabar, not laysa (note that laysa is treated as a feminine word).



Yes I am aware of this. I just thought that if خبر ليس المقدم is correct, it implies ليس is definite. I don't think you can add al to ليس can you? i.e. الليس is not possible, I don't think, so I was thinking ليس might be being treated as a proper noun, as Ibn Nacer mentioned above.

Similarly, بيت محمد الكبير is correct for "Muhammad's big house", but if you said بيت محمد كبير, this would mean "Muhammad's house is big", and not "Muhammad's big house" whereas بيت ولد كبير could mean "a boy's big house". I think the difference between  ولد and  محمد is that the first is indefinite and the second definite.

And I thought ليس was acting like محمد because it was being considered definite in the sentence خبر ليس المقدم

I could be totally wrong of course.


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## Ibn Nacer

AndyRoo said:


> Yes I agree with that, but you say you have also seen خبر ليس المقدم which implies ليس is definite I think. So I don't think we are any nearer answering your original question as to which is correct. Maybe they both are.


Yes you are right. it seems that خبر ليس مقدم is more common/ widespread than خبر ليس المقدم, maybe it is a mistake ?



cherine said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm sorry, I didn't read all the details of your discussion, so forgive me if I repeat something that was said before. I just wanted to post 2 quick comments/replies:
> [/RIGHT]
> The pronoun refers to laysa. It means: خبر ليس مقدَّم على ليس = placed before it. (khabar de laysa placé avant elle, ou: khabar de laysa qui *la* devance).
> 
> The al- her defines the khabar, not laysa (note that laysa is treated as a feminine word).


Merci pour ces précisions.

I think you are right but in this case it seems that there is an error :


سلي إن جهلت الناس عنا  ---  وعنهم    فليس سواء عالم وجهول
...
سواء : خبر ليس مقدم عليها منصوب بالفتحة الظاهرة 
عالم : اسم ليس مؤخر عن الخبر مرفوع بالضمة
وجهول : الواو حرف عطف ، جهول معطوف على ما قبله ​ 

Because the word سواء  which is the khabar is placed *after* the word ليس (and not before). 

I think the author wanted to write this :  خبر ليس مقدم على اسمها What do you think?


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## AndyRoo

Ibn Nacer said:


> Yes you are right. it seems that خبر ليس مقدم is more common/ widespread than خبر ليس المقدم, maybe it is a mistake ?



Somehow I doubt it is a mistake. It seems some people use one, and some the other.

edit: I just had a thought - perhaps the ال on مقدم is what determines the definiteness of ليس rather than ليس having an intrinsic definiteness. So خبر ليس مقدم  might mean " leading khabar of *a* laysa" whereas خبر ليس المقدم might mean "leading khabar of *the* laysa". Then they would both be correct, but with a slightly different meaning.


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## Ibn Nacer

Thank you.


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## Bakr

I think both are correct: 
خبر ليس مقدم
Leading khabar of laysa
خبر ليس المقدم
The leading khabar of laysa


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## Ibn Nacer

Bakr said:


> I think both are correct:
> خبر ليس مقدم
> Leading khabar of laysa
> خبر ليس المقدم
> The leading khabar of laysa


Merci pour la confirmation.


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