# tanto era dovuto



## kellytree

Good morning. I really don't like this phrase "tanto era dovuto" .
It is at the end of a letter :
Tanto era dovuto per l'incarico assegnatomi.

Can I just put something like:

Thank you for appointing me this duty.
or
Thank you for the assignment.

or ?

Thanks.


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## Saoul

Grazie per avermi affidato questo incarico.
Grazie per l'incarico affidatomi.

I don't like "tanto era dovuto" either.


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## kellytree

Thanks for your input Saoul.

It's the quick conclusion of a feasibility study. As if they guy got tired of writing and says "ok, this is the report I was appointed to do" 

Any ideas people?

As due for the assigned duty???


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## Flocke

I'd say: _All work is complete. Thank you for your business!  _or something like this.


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## kellytree

Thank you Flocke for your input.
I still haven't found the "right" way to state this. It is so frustrating!!
I looked at other feasibility studies and nobody puts anything like this at the end.


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## furs

It is just a stale, bureaucratic-sounding catchphrase... How about:
I trust the above meets your requirements. Thank you for your business.


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## Kika14

Hello everyone!
At the end of a formal letter which one is the correct translation of "Tanto era dovuto":
_So much was due_ or s_o much was owed?_
Thank you...


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## Paulfromitaly

E' fondamentale che tu scriva:
- la *frase originale intera*

e ci dia qualche informazione a proposito del *contesto*,  grazie 

Cosa significa "*aggiungere il contesto*"?
*Come e in che forum creare - modificare - impostare correttamente una discussione*


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## Kika14

Paulfromitaly said:


> E' fondamentale che tu scriva:
> - la *frase originale intera*
> 
> e ci dia qualche informazione a proposito del *contesto*,  grazie
> 
> Cosa significa "*aggiungere il contesto*"?
> *Come e in che forum creare - modificare - impostare correttamente una discussione*



Il contesto è una lettera di contestazione per una fattura errata, ma non vi è di aiuto se ne riporto il testo, è semplicemente una lettera formale che chiude con quella frase....


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## King Crimson

C'è un'altra discussione (qui) con lo stesso titolo (suggerirei ai mod di unificarle). Peraltro la traduzione cambia a seconda del contesto e quella proposta nel thread esistente (post #6) non si adatta al caso proposto da Kika.


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## GavinW

Does this expression really mean, basically, just "Thank you"? Is that what it boils down to (si riduce a questo significato)?


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## Kika14

King Crimson said:


> C'è un'altra discussione (qui) con lo stesso titolo (suggerirei ai mod di unificarle). Peraltro la traduzione cambia a seconda del contesto e quella proposta nel thread esistente (post #6) non si adatta al caso proposto da Kika.



Grazie King Crimson, avevo letto l'altra discussione ed ho posto la domanda proprio perché non rientra nel contesto del mio caso, che è molto più formale.
Da amici madrelingua inglese mi è stato suggerito di usare "_so much was due_" che sarebbe meglio di "_owed_".


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## King Crimson

GavinW said:


> Does this expression really mean, basically, just "Thank you"? Is that what it boils down to (si riduce a questo significato)?



Er.. yes and no. First of all, I would say that in the context of the OT, this expression is out of place. As furs explained this is typical legal-bureaucratic jargon and the expression serves no other purpose than to sound vaguely threatening, which is a common trait of Italian legalese.
Having said that, I have also found this and this discussion but it seems we don't really have a well-established and accepted translation for this expression. The quest goes on...


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## joanvillafane

Hi - I don't know if I can contribute - yet .  I'm still trying to figure out how this interesting expression is used.  I never heard it before.  Does it mean something like "We've done our part/We've done what we were supposed to do/ and now it's up to you/ the ball is in your court."
If that is so, then maybe this is more or less equivalent:
We trust that this matter has been settled satisfactorily.....


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## King Crimson

Hi Joan, your proposals certainly capture the literal meaning of the expression, but the problem here is how to render its non-literal, underlying meaning. "Tanto era dovuto" has a harsh tone meant to intimidate the recipient of the message and prevent any further reply. I'm afraid that we still must find an equivalent English expression able to convey the same tone. Could "so much was due" (indicated by Kika in post #12) be closer to the solution?


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## joanvillafane

Hi, King Crimson - no, "so much was due" doesn't mean anything to this English speaker.  Maybe we can make my sentence "harsher" in this way:
We trust that this matter has now been finalized.


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## Holymaloney

joanvillafane said:


> Hi - I don't know if I can contribute - yet .  I'm still trying to figure out how this interesting expression is used.  I never heard it before.  Does it mean something like "We've done our part/We've done what we were supposed to do/ and now it's up to you/ the ball is in your court."
> If that is so, then maybe this is more or less equivalent:
> We trust that this matter has been settled satisfactorily.....



I've never liked this expression and I always get a put off whenever I come across it in a formal document . It has an underlying tone of dunno what, as in 'this much we owe you (so don't bother us again/don't think of asking for something else ect ec) 
As to the translation, well I'm struggling on this one . A literal translation sounds too harsh and there's nothing similar in English. Something like your suggestion could work Jo but I don't think it fully captures the nuance of this way of saying....mumble...mumble....thinkg....thinking....


ps hi JFV, hope all is well 

EDIT: oops a bit slow today ...blush blush


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## joanvillafane

Hi Holy!  nice to see you! 
Maybe the English sounds more polite, but believe me if I get a letter that says "this matter has now been settled" or something to that effect, it has exactly the effect you describe.  Uh-oh, they are not willing to cooperate further.  Whatever I wanted is not going to happen.  I don't think any literal translation will work in English.


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## Holymaloney

joanvillafane said:


> Hi Holy!  nice to see you!
> Maybe the English sounds more polite, but believe me if I get a letter that says "this matter has now been settled" or something to that effect, it has exactly the effect you describe.  Uh-oh, they are not willing to cooperate further.  Whatever I wanted is not going to happen.  I don't think any literal translation will work in English.


Good to see you too JVF 
Quite right and I saw in your other post that you added a 'now' (we trust that this matter has _now _been finalized) and yes, it does have the same effect


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## GavinW

We will probably make better progress if we are able to decide how close a connection (if any) there is with the expression: Tanto vi/ti dovevo (which I, for one, am more familiar with).
But, hey guys, we still don't have a very clear definition in Italian...! 
@KC: thanks, but I wanna know more!  ;-)


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## rrose17

I'm with Joan, and have a hard time imagining writing anything "harsher" but I suppose you could always change "we trust" to "we consider" as in "We (shall) now consider this matter to have been finalized/this case closed." Or less formal would be a simple "Case closed".


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## GavinW

rrose17 said:


> "We (shall) now consider this matter to have been finalized/this case closed."



Like I said, I'm not at all sure the Italian expression (or "formula") means that. I think it's probably closer to something like "You have been informed". (But I look forward to getting a fuller explanation...)


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## chipulukusu

As I understand it, this expression is a very _business unfriendly_ one.
You can mostly find it in business when the relations for some reasons are getting pretty cold and hostile. Very short from turning it to court, as I see it.
If it is used at the beginning of a business contact with no particular reason, it shows a horrible, uncommendable (and lazy) attitude.

The meaning may vary from:

- we have done this because we were legally obliged to do it, so don't even think to thank us because we haven't done it to please you in any way;

to

- this is exactly what we were supposed to do, not an inch more. We couldn't be bothered to do anything more than the strict necessary for you;

to

- we have done everything to keep our ass safe, try to sue us if you dare.

Sometimes this "_tanto era dovuto" _is actually genuinely used with a formal but friendly intention. Usually by some lazy moron which happened to stumble upon this expression, to like it, and to start using it as a way to pretend to know how to write _legalese._


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## london calling

joanvillafane said:


> Hi, King Crimson - no, "so much was due" doesn't mean anything to this English speaker.


Or to me either, Jo.

Every now and again our legal eagles at work ask me for help with this kind of thing. Over the years I have learnt not to translate a whole series of expressions for which we do not have any true equivalents, which in my opinion means that any attempts at translation tend to sound either rude or ridiculous or both. 

So my suggestion is to leave it out completely in the English version.


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## dôghen

> Every now and again our legal eagles at work ask me for help with this kind of thing. Over the years I have learnt not to translate a whole series of expressions for which we do not have any true equivalents, which in my opinion means that any attempts at translation tend to sound either rude or ridiculous or both.



I totally agree with this. Reading thoroughly the thread it seems to me that something is not clear enough: This is just a _formula _with no real meaning, as empty as _sincerely yours _could be. 
Every report requested in an Italian court, for example, would close with: "tanto era dovuto per l'incarico conferitomi", and of course it doesn't mean the expert is "threatening" the judge or saying he's not going to do anything more, if ordered. 
If I ask a technician to provide me a report about, let's say, the energetic effectiveness of my house, the guy could end his report, trying naively to give some "official" aspect to it, with "tanto vi era dovuto" etc. 
And I would not be upset or think that he's saying "don't bother me more". 
As I said it is a semantically _empty_ formula and, london calling put it right, one should never attempt to translate it literally. You can use it freely, when necessary, regardless of its apparent "rudeness".


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## furs

Totally agree with the above,as I has already pointed out earlier (#6).


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## dôghen

Sì furs
non avevo letto il thread così attentamente come ho detto, evidentemente. Avevi già chiarito.


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## chipulukusu

I obviously agree with London, dôghen and furs about "_tanto era dovuto_" being harmless.

My rant was a lame attempt to describe in a funny way how much I find difficult to put up with these worn out formulas which drag our otherwise beautiful language.

Please take a look at the English used in the Uk Border website and remember how the papers were 30 years ago. Look at our National Revenue website (Agenzia delle Entrate) and how it was only five years ago.

These people are making efforts to polish up and simplify the language!

Why we should always complain about the _establishment_ and not do anything to improve and humanize our own language? Most of the times it's just a matter of laziness, I'm afraid.

Anyway, it's just my rant, but if it prevents even only one non Italian from using _tanto era dovuto_, I don't repent!


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## dôghen

chipulukusu said:


> I obviously agree with London, dôghen and furs about "_tanto era dovuto_" being harmless.
> 
> My rant was a lame attempt to describe in a funny way how much I find difficult to put up with these worn out formulas which drag our otherwise beautiful language.
> 
> Please take a look at the English used in the Uk Border website and remember how the papers were 30 years ago. Look at our National Revenue website (Agenzia delle Entrate) and how it was only five years ago.
> 
> These people are making efforts to polish up and simplify the language!
> 
> Why we should always complain about the _establishment_ and not do anything to improve and humanize our own language? Most of the times it's just a matter of laziness, I'm afraid.
> 
> Anymay, it's just my rant, but if it prevents even only one non Italian from using _tanto era dovuto_, I don't repent!



Beautiful post chipulukusu

To Italians like me, English appears as a promise land of clearness, conciseness and exact reference. I know it's naive and probably not true, but we are so much addicted to the convolutions of Italian legalese and burocratese that we cannot imagine a way to get out of it.
I have been introduced, some time ago, to the programs of the Plain English Movement and I remember my surprise seeing these people trying to simplify a language that appeared already so clear and cristal-cut to me...
And indeed we really would need something as deeper and transformative, in the language that is imposed, and often self-imposed, when dealing with anything "official" in this country.
Okay then, I'm sure I never did but I still make the solemn promise to you that i would never use "tanto era dovuto" in my life!


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## chipulukusu

dôghen said:


> Beautiful post chipulukusu
> 
> To Italians like me, English appears as a promise land of clearness, conciseness and exact reference. I know it's naive and probably not true, but we are so much addicted to the convolutions of Italian legalese and burocratese that we cannot imagine a way to get out of it.
> I have been introduced, some time ago, to the programs of the Plain English Movement and I remember my surprise seeing these people trying to simplify a language that appeared already so clear and cristal-cut to me...
> And indeed we really would need something as deeper and transformative, in the language that is imposed, and often self-imposed, when dealing with anything "official" in this country.
> Okay then, I'm sure I never did but I still make the solemn promise to you that i would never use "tanto era dovuto" in my life!



Thanks to you dôghen. And thanks for the reference to the Plain English Movement, very informative!


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## GavinW

dôghen said:


> As I said it is a semantically _empty_ formula and, london calling put it right, one should never attempt to translate it literally.



You say that LC suggested that we don't translate it (too) literally. Wrong: actually, LC suggested that it's best not to translate it at all! But I think her suggestion is a bit too radical (sorry, Jo). Indeed, it negates the possibility of a particular utterance (or enunciation, or statement) from being translatable. But an utterance is always an utterance of some kind, however empty. Yes, this Italian formula is pretty empty, in terms of meaning and content, but no statement can ever be completely empty. It can be vague, ambiguous, and difficult to translate, but this poses a difficulty, not an impossibility. 
The example of "Yours sincerely" is instructive: it is a formula to indicate one is ending a letter, on a certain register. The "pragmatics" are pretty specific.
For the general, "offhand" (and certainly "non-threatening") usage of the Italian expression in question, we might say: "I trust that the above (or even "the below") satisfies the purpose in question", or any other such vague, self-referring formula. (Similarly, plenty of variations on this theme will be immediately apparent.)

Tanto vi dovevo (!), 

Gavin 
;-)


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## chipulukusu

I think that "Please do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further information" is a much more polite, intelligible, human, _*pro*glodite _(as opposed to _troglodite) _form of ending a letter than _tanto era dovuto..._


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## london calling

chipulukusu said:


> I think that "Please do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further information" is a much more polite, intelligible, human, _*pro*glodite _(as opposed to _troglodite) _form of ending a letter than _tanto era dovuto..._


Precisely.


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## King Crimson

Only to complicate matters further and as a follow up to my first two posts on the subject I realized that there are also cases where this expression is used informally or with tongue in cheek (see here, for example). So, if I had to sum up the findings of this interesting discussion I would say that "tanto era dovuto" is currently used in three different main contexts:
a) A legal-bureaucratic context. I maintain that this is the legitimate context where the expression originated and here, obviously, the tone may escalate from just being mildly hostile (a case in point being the letter to query an invoice, see post #9 by Kika) to an out and out threat to take appropriate legal action against someone. This case has been covered quite thoroughly, in my opinion, by chipulukusu in post #23 and I have nothing to add on that
b) A formal (but not necessarily legal) context. This is the case of the OP, also mentioned by dôghen in post #25 (the technician delivering the report)
c) An informal, relatively innocent or jocular context. This is the case I mentioned earlier in this post and a nice example of this usage was also given by a non-native speaker (Gavin in post #31)

It should be noted that from a) to c) we are gradually moving away from the (supposedly) original and legitimate use of this expression and the meaning changes/broadens accordingly.

As to the rest, everyone here seems to agree on the fact that the this expression is basically hot air (a “formula” was rightly defined by dôghen). Conversely, there are mixed views (between non-native speakers) on the possibility to provide an effective translation. I’m not going to enter this debate, but only want to point out that certainly, as a result of points a) to c) above, no all-round translation will be available (and no "easy" translation will be available anyway even for a given context), all the more so as the concept this expression conveys seems to be so specific of the Italian mindset.


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