# Pronunciation of qaf ق in Jerusalem



## Nunty

Hello to everyone.

I apologize in advance if my question is particularly stupid. I've only been learning Arabic for about five minutes  ,so that will have to be my excuse.

My first Arabic teacher, a Lebanese man who now lives in Nazareth, told us that "ladies" do not pronounce the ق in  القُدِس . My present teacher is a lady who lives in Jerusalem and she says that no one in Jerusalem pronounces it. (In case I did something really dumb, I was trying to type alquds.)

My questions are:
Which of them is right?
Does this hold for every ق or only for that word?

Thank you again. I'm afraid I may be coming back more and more often...


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## Jana337

Mar7aba Sister, 

Elias is not a lady and he says that in the Palestinian dialect, q is always pronounced as the glottal stop (2 in transcriptions).

The word you wrote is al-qudis. The kasra symbol under "d" is wrong. If you want to vocalize, you should write القُدْس

Please wait for more informed opinions. 

ينا


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## Nunty

Hello Jana, nice to see you here. Thank you for the correction of my spelling. I also see I'll have to print out the transliteration system until I get it down.

The glottal stop, that's the sukun?

I'm sure your reply is perfectly correct, but I'll do as you say and wait a bit more. My next lesson isn't until Thursday 

Thanks again.


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## Jana337

No, sukun is the small circle above "d". It indicates that the corresponding consonant does not carry any vowel.

Glottal stop is the short pause between L and U in al-'uds (common transcription: al-2uds). The red part is not pronounced like in look but like "al" pause, new syllable "uds".

Arabs may sue me for such a pedestrian representation. 

Jana


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## Nunty

Pedestrian? Maybe, but just exactly my speed! Thanks again, Jana.


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## elroy

The precise answer is that _most_ ق's are pronounced as glottal stops in Jerusalem, but quite a few are not. In fact, just the other day I was discussing this phenomenon with my dad and it struck us how many words we pronounce the ق normally in. This differs from Lebanese Arabic, in which - if I am not wrong - _all _(or at least the overwhelming majority of) ق's are pronounced as glottal stops.

Examples: 

ق > glottal stop

بقرة (cow) - pronounced "ba2ara"
قلب (heart) - pronounced "2alb"
قبر (grave) - pronounced "2aber"
سقف (roof) - pronounced "sa2ef"
ق preserved

موسيقى (music) - pronounced "musiiqa"
رقم (number) - pronounced "raqam"
لقب (title) - pronounced "laqab"
قرية (village) - pronounced "qarye"
For some words, both pronunciations are common. For بقرأ (I read), you will hear both "baqra2" and "ba2ra" (notice that in the latter case the second glottal stop is dropped; I guess two is one too many! ).

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to tell which words are pronounced which way. It's one of those things you just have to learn. 

In any case, none of this has anything to do with gender. In the Galilee, some men pronounce almost all their ق's - even in words in which they are traditionally not pronounced - because the ق sounds more "masculine." Others - mostly men, but sometimes women - do this occasionally for humorous effect. I have not noticed this in Jerusalem, however, where I have lived my whole life. 

Jana answered all your other questions.  Let us know if you have any more.


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## Nunty

Not only informative and comprehensive, Elias, but even appropriate for my learning level of rank beginner. Thank you very, very much! 

Very unfortunately, the course my monastery signed me up for is strictly oral  (even the book is written in transliteration). However, I also have a private teacher once a week, and I've asked her if we can work on reading and writing. In any case, I'm sure I'll be back! Thank you everyone.


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## Josh_

The same distinctions that Elroy explained are basically the same in Egyptian Arabic. 

The examples of ba2ara (cow) and ba2ra (I read) reminded me of a funny little story (if we are allowed to tell one as it relates to the topic).  I love to read and would be reading sometimes when an Egyptian, or Arabic speaking, friend would ask me what I was doing.  I would respond by saying "ana ba2ra"  (I am reading) to which they would respond with, "aah, inta ba2ara" (you are a cow) playing on the similarities of the words, which would invariably break my concentration.  

So the moral of the story is: if you are reading and someone asks you in Arabic what you are doing, be careful, because they may be setting you up.


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## elroy

Jana337 said:


> Glottal stop is the short pause between L and U in al-'uds (common transcription: al-2uds). The red part is not pronounced like in look but like "al" pause, new syllable "uds".


 I just noticed this.  The colloquial pronunciation is il-2uds.  So it's either "al-quds" (MSA) or "il-2uds" (colloquial).  "Al-2uds" is a curious mixture of MSA and colloquial that does not exist, as far as I know.


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## mansio

It is good news for us Westerners to know that we can speak Arabic without having to pronounce the qâf... as qâf.

I remember visiting the fortress of Marqab in Syria and trying to figure out how to pronounce a rolled "r" followed by a "q". I can't tell today if the qâf was a qâf or a glottal stop.

I heard that the qâf is also pronounced as a "g", I think in North Africa. 
When I was in Iran the "q" of the town Qom was also pronounced in a peculiar way: a kind of "g" or "ghayn", I don't remember well.


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## elroy

There are three possibilities in Palestinian Arabic:

-"standard" Palestinian (Jerusalem and most other places): mostly 2, sometimes q (as described above)
-Bethlehem and the vicinity: k
-Bedouin: g 

If you really want to speak Arabic without ever pronouncing or hearing the ق sound, go to Lebanon.  Believe it or not, they say "musii2a" there.


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## Anatoli

Q (ق) is also pronounced as a hard "g" or even "j" in some Gulf dialects

funduq -> fundug

I don't have examples ready for q->j but the Emirate of Sharja (ash-shariqa in MSA) is actually written as الشارق. I think it's to do with the local pronunciation of the word.


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## Abu Bishr

Hi Anatoli

I have a theory on "Sharjah" which might be way off. My theory is that it involves MSA and two dialects (Gulf & Egyptian). The Gulf Arabs use the /g/ for the (qaaf) and the Egyptians use it for the (jiim). Now, maybe (and this is a big "maybe") it started out like this: Gulf Arabs pronounced the original "al-Shaariqah" as "al-Shaarigah". Non-Arabs came along and thought this might be an Egyptian dialect because of the presence of the /g/ sound. So they conclude that it must come from "al-Shaarijah" which eventually evolved into "Shaarjah".

Well, this is only a theory and I'm almost certain that it is wrong. So I'll appreciate it if someone can come along and falsify my hypothesis.


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## mansio

The German Wikipedia says that ash-Shâriqa is locally pronounced as ash-Shârja.


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## alajnabiya

> There are three possibilities in Palestinian Arabic:
> 
> -"standard" Palestinian (Jerusalem and most other places): mostly 2, sometimes q (as described above)
> -Bethlehem and the vicinity: k
> -Bedouin: g


 
Elroy, I am surprised that you didn't mention that there is a difference between the way people from the cities and from the villages pronounce the letter "qaaf." People from the cities generally change the qaaf to a glottal stop, but people from rural areas usually pronounce the qaaf. But the interesting thing is that people generally stick to the pronunciation of their family origin, no matter where they are raised. For instance, I live in a village just north of Jerusalem. Half of the residents are from the original village, and they pronounce the qaaf. The other half of the residents' families have moved here from Jerusalam, and they say "il 2uds." So you have kids who grew up next door to each other and went to the same schools, but who speak with very different accents! (It makes more of a difference with the letter kaaf. The madani/city accent pronounces it as a plain k sound, but the the falahi/rural families pronounce it as a ch sound. "cheef halach?")


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## elroy

Good points, Alajnabiya. Indeed, the Palestinian dialects are numerous and complex; I was just trying to present a general, rough outline of pronunciation possibilities.


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## Tariq_Ibn_zyad

Qaf is pronounced in dialects:
-in classical lownwoards,especially religious words (eg:qur2an)
In some dialects,it is the most frequent (or only)pronounciation:
Urban dialects of Oman,yemen,Tunisia,morocco(especially in the north.In other regions there is a co-existence of Qaf and Gaf),algeria(same as morocco,co-existence of qaf and gaf)


2af(glottal stop)
-In urban dialects:egypt,syria,lebanon,palestine,jordan,and in some parts of north africa(jewish moroccan,jewish tunisian,and cities influences by andalu arabic)

Gaf
-Pratically in all rural dialects from any arab country and in bedouin dialects
-It is also pronounced in cities in practically all gulf dialects,Lybia and Iraq
in morocco and algeria,both gaf and qaf are used whether in cities or countryside


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## Sidjanga

Hi,





elroy said:


> For some words, both pronunciations are common. For بقرأ (I read), you will hear both "baqra2" and "ba2ra".


Does that equally apply to the noun, i.e. قراءة, or is the ق always pronounced q in that word?

Is ق at the beginning of a word maybe generally more likely to be realized as q that it is in other positions within a word?


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## clevermizo

Sidjanga said:


> Hi,Does that equally apply to the noun, i.e. قراءة, or is the ق always pronounced q in that word?



It's either pronounced [qirāʔa] or [ʔirāye]. People who say _baʔra_ say _ʔirāye_ and people who say _baqraʔ_ say _qirāʔa. _Also, people who say _baqraʔ_ say _qariʔ t_ in the past tense, and people who say _baʔra_ say _ʔarēt_ in the past tense.



> Is ق at the beginning of a word maybe generally more likely to be realized as q that it is in other positions within a word?


No, the [q] is maintained in words that are either currently or were at one time in history "higher" register words. It's a "classicizing" tendency, you could call it a "borrowing" from standard Arabic.

In some very common words, which are certainly no longer higher register vocabulary, the [q] is still maintained. But it's essentially a classicism for dialects that use the glottal stop most of the time. In other words you'd usually find it in a word like اقتراح and not a word like قال. This obviously has plenty of exceptions, but it's the general idea. You can probably also include it to "elevate" a word and sound a little more erudite (or maybe just pretentious  ).


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## vaftrudner

mansio said:


> It is good news for us Westerners to know that we can speak Arabic without having to pronounce the qâf... as qâf.
> 
> I remember visiting the fortress of Marqab in Syria and trying to figure out how to pronounce a rolled "r" followed by a "q". I can't tell today if the qâf was a qâf or a glottal stop.
> 
> I heard that the qâf is also pronounced as a "g", I think in North Africa.
> When I was in Iran the "q" of the town Qom was also pronounced in a peculiar way: a kind of "g" or "ghayn", I don't remember well.


In Persian, what is spelled with qaf is usually pronounced as ghayn. The other, more uncommon alternative is to pronounce it as a qaf, but with voicing. That means that if qaf is a "k" sound in the back of the throat, with voicing it becomes a "g" sound in the back of the throat. This is also how qaf is pronounced in Sudanese Arabic, a very uncommon sound. If you have trouble pronouncing qaf, the way I learned it was to make a "k", and then try to feel what I do with the tongue, stopping the air abruptly in a spot. Then do it over and over again, but try moving that motion further and further back so it becomes deeper until it sounds like a qaf


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> It's either pronounced [qirāʔa] or [ʔirāye].


 It's actually [ʔrāy] in Palestinian Arabic.


> People who say _baʔra_ say _ʔirāye_ _ʔrāy _and people who say _baqraʔ_ say _qirāʔa. _Also, people who say _baqraʔ_ say qariʔ t _qaraʔet _in the past tense, and people who say _baʔra_ say _ʔarēt_ in the past tense.


 That's probably generally true, but there may be "inconsistencies" even within one speaker's idiolect.  I use _baqra__ʔ/qara__ʔet_ and _ba__ʔra/__ʔar__ēt_ interchangeable, but I only ever say _qir__āʔa_.  Also, I'm not sure of this, but I believe that _qir__āʔa _would always be used to refer to "reading" as a school subject, even by those who otherwise say _ʔrāy_.


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## clevermizo

vaftrudner said:


> The other, more uncommon alternative is to pronounce it as a qaf, but with voicing. That means that if qaf is a "k" sound in the back of the throat, with voicing it becomes a "g" sound in the back of the throat. This is also how qaf is pronounced in Sudanese Arabic, a very uncommon sound.



Yes, the IPA for this is [G]. I believe it is the reconstructed phoneme for Proto-Arabic (or Classical Arabic as it was originally pronounced)? It explains the [g] pronunciation because this would be a change of place of articulation, and the [q] is explained by devoicing of the [G]. The phoneme in Sudanese Arabic is a conservative sound. At least I thought this was the case, but I checked the wikis on Proto-Semitic and Classical Arabic and this isn't mentioned, so perhaps not. Anyway, off-topic  . 

The [ʔ] pronunciation seems to have happened more than once as an evolution of the [q] sound. It too is a change of place: uvular to glottal. It occurred in the Levant and Egypt, but also in Maltese which I believe is an independent event or related to Jewish and Christian dialects in the Maghreb.


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## DarrenLamb

Abu Bishr said:


> I have a theory on "Sharjah" which might be way off. My theory is that it involves MSA and two dialects (Gulf & Egyptian). The Gulf Arabs use the /g/ for the (qaaf) and the Egyptians use it for the (jiim). Now, maybe (and this is a big "maybe") it started out like this: Gulf Arabs pronounced the original "al-Shaariqah" as "al-Shaarigah". Non-Arabs came along and thought this might be an Egyptian dialect because of the presence of the /g/ sound. So they conclude that it must come from "al-Shaarijah" which eventually evolved into "Shaarjah".
> 
> Well, this is only a theory and I'm almost certain that it is wrong. So I'll appreciate it if someone can come along and falsify my hypothesis.


 
Funny you should mention that as I had a similar theory! Then I realised that the reason it is pronounced 'il-sharja' is because in Gulf Dialects "qaaf" can become a /j/ as well as a /g/, although /g/ is the more common of the two. For example I've heard 'jareeb' (qareeb --> gareeb-->jareeb)!


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## إسكندراني

I don't think 'Sharjah' has anything to do with Egypt. Maybe it's something to do with k->ch common in Gulf Arabic, but that's another stab in the dark for me.

As for why q -> 2 in several dialects (Lebanese, Urban Egyptian, Traditional Fasi) it may be because the مخرج (place of pronunciation) of ق in Qur'anic Arabic is very close to ء , deep down in the throat.


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## Silky_Sword

Women from areas in the Levant (and I can imagine this being true of all other Arab countries) in their constant attempts to be soft and pretty, they resort to pronouncing the ق the 'Lebanese' (or if you want: the mainstream 'Shami') way of the major cities...so that they are known to be speaking a fine (or refined), pleasant Arabic -that they know or don't know men find attractive on them more than the fus'ha 'q' or the bedousin or rural 'g' instead.

This is also evident in Gaza (where my family is from), where half the city says the 'qaaf' as 'g', the other as '2' (pure Gazans are originally all the 'g' camp, I think). But what the originator of this thread said is true: we find half one's immediate family (the women) say the 'qaaf' as '2' while men stick to the "manly" 'g'!!! How they consciously do that and then it becomes a habit in one family (two camps!), it never ceases to puzzle me.

My famliy is pure Gazan but we are the '2' folks. They laugh at us if we visit Gaza and I (a man) talk like that! They'd probably call me a softie (so you can only imagine how much "worse" in their eyes would a Lebanese or Syrian man sound in Gaza, or even much worse: to bedouin Arabs, haha) 


elroy said:


> There are three possibilities in Palestinian Arabic:
> If you really want to speak Arabic without ever pronouncing or hearing the ق sound, go to Lebanon.  Believe it or not, they say "musii2a" there.


They also say "el-ar2am" for "the numbers"  I found that too funny when I noticed it first time 


Abu Bishr said:


> I have a theory on "Sharjah" which might be way off. My theory is that it involves MSA and two dialects (Gulf & Egyptian). The Gulf Arabs use the /g/ for the (qaaf) and the Egyptians use it for the (jiim). Now, maybe (and this is a big "maybe") it started out like this: Gulf Arabs pronounced the original "al-Shaariqah" as "al-Shaarigah". Non-Arabs came along and thought this might be an Egyptian dialect because of the presence of the /g/ sound. So they conclude that it must come from "al-Shaarijah" which eventually evolved into "Shaarjah".
> 
> Well, this is only a theory and I'm almost certain that it is wrong. So I'll appreciate it if someone can come along and falsify my hypothesis.


Khaleeji (Gulf) Arabs seem to have changed the 'q' into 'j' in names like Jasem (originally Qasem). I noticed that from the Kuwaiti's habit (I grew up in Kuwait) in nicknaming every 'Muhammad': Abu Jasem (such nicknames are automatically known after a historicali personality, and in this case it was Prophet Muhammad who's know as Abu al-Qasem) --another example is Ali becoming nickname Abu Hassan (or Abu Hussain, if you're a Shiite Muslim preferring Hussain's name over Hassan's which is obscure in that sect) or Tareq becoming Abu Ziyad (from the famous Berber warrior who led the Islamic conquest of the Iberian Peninsula / Spain to become al-Andalus).

This Gulf Arab way of turning the 'q' into 'j' is also noticed in them saying 'jiddam' for 'quddam' (in front). And when I say 'Gulf Arabic'..that is different from Najdi (central Arabian) or Hijazi for sure.


elroy said:


> Good points, Alajnabiya. Indeed, the Palestinian dialects are numerous and complex; I was just trying to present a general, rough outline of pronunciation possibilities.


And in that is a rebuttal of some silly Zionist claims like those of Jabotinsky that many of us Palestinians crossed the borders to Palestine from neighbouring Arab regions to benefit from the "development brought to deserted land [Palestine] with the Jewish immigrants"! If that were true, wouldn't we be speaking in the ways of other Arabs, NOT have our own Khalili, Ghazzawi, or Qudsi way????


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## Abu Bishr

Silky_Sword said:


> Khaleeji (Gulf) Arabs seem to have changed the 'q' into 'j' in names like Jasem (originally Qasem). I noticed that from the Kuwaiti's habit (I grew up in Kuwait) in nicknaming every 'Muhammad': Abu Jasem (such nicknames are automatically known after a historicali personality, and in this case it was Prophet Muhammad who's know as Abu al-Qasem) --another example is Ali becoming nickname Abu Hassan (or Abu Hussain, if you're a Shiite Muslim preferring Hussain's name over Hassan's which is obscure in that sect) or Tareq becoming Abu Ziyad (from the famous Berber warrior who led the Islamic conquest of the Iberian Peninsula / Spain to become al-Andalus).
> 
> This Gulf Arab way of turning the 'q' into 'j' is also noticed in them saying 'jiddam' for 'quddam' (in front). And when I say 'Gulf Arabic'..that is different from Najdi (central Arabian) or Hijazi for sure.



The only other linguistic explanation I can come up with is that this phenomenon is an extension of the famous al-Kashkashah (الكشكشة) which is where some Arab tribes change the kaaf into a shiin much like the Kuwaitis changing the kaaf into "ch" e.g. Chayf Haalich? It follows that a "gh" sound (transformed from the qaaf) will change into a "j" sound. If this is in fact the case, then I propose calling this phenomenon "al-Ghajghajah" which is where a ghaaf changes into a jiim which are the voiced equivalents of the voiceless kaaf and chaaf respectively (as per the Kuwaity dialect as seen in Chayf Haalich).


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## إسكندراني

Silky_Sword said:


> Khaleeji (Gulf) Arabs seem to have changed the 'q' into 'j' in names like Jasem (originally Qasem).


Why do you assume they want to say قاسم? Maybe they just want to say جاسم; it's a common name in the Gulf.


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## Silky_Sword

Because there is no such name in Arabic as Jasem really. There's Jaser. And because they make Muhammad's nickname always Abu Jasem! And since it's know that Muhammad is always the father of Qasem, I connected the dots and knew that their Q becomes J. Also the other example of 'in front' (quddam) becoming 'jiddam' was another supporting example!

Seriously, why do people here refuse to admit if someone is right sometimes?!? Is there a prize or something that I'm not aware of and they want their hands on it before me?!?


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## إسكندراني

I'm not conspiring against you bro, if I ask you to clarify it's because I want you to clarify. And if I disagree it's because I disagree. No hidden agendas!
In any case regarding جاسم possibly being from قاسم, this is what this place says (you might have to type جاسم in again):
لسان العرب


> وبنو جَوْسَم: حَيٌّ قديم من العرب، وكذلك بنو جاسِمٍ.
> وجاسِمٌ  موضع بالشام؛ أنشد ابن بري لعَديّ بن الرِّقاعِ: لولا الحَياءُ، وأنّ  رأْسِيَ قد عَفا فيه المَشِيبُ، لزُرْتُ أُمَّ القاسِمِ فكأَنَّها، بين  النِّساءِ، أعارها عَيْنَيْهِ أحْوَرُ من جآذِرِ جاسِمِ ويروى عاسِم.


المحيط


> وبنو جاسِمٍ: حَيٌّ قَديمٌ.


Of course the current ruling royal in Qatar is حمد بن جاسم


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## cherine

Hi everyone,

This thread has gathered some off-topic comments/posts.
It is closed till the moderators find the time to split or delete said comments.

Please remind yourself all the time that every thread in this forum can discuss one topic only.

Regards,
Cherine
Moderator


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