# Racism in USA.



## Paparaciii

I don't live in America but I know that there is a real intolerance towards racism. 
I can judge only by films and TV broadcasts so I might be wrong but it seems to me that the only racism is being denounced is the one voiced from a white person or persons.
If white man will say "you fucking nigger" it will cause a great condemnation whereas racist expressions by black people are being tolerated and everybody perceive it easy and just give a smile on it.
It seems to me that in _black areas _it is even demand to be racist towards white people(if you're black) and in those areas whites are not welcomed and there's a big feasibility to get punched or plundered if you are white but I've never heard that black person should be afraid in areas where the majority of people are whites.

Is it truth what I'm talking about? And should there be any arrangements against it?

Your opinions please!


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## sallyk

I dont think it's any worst than latin america or asia... 



Paparaciii said:


> I don't live in America but I know that there is a real intolerance towards racism.
> I can judge only by films and TV broadcasts so I might be wrong but it seems to me that the only racism is being denounced is the one voiced from a white person or persons.
> If white man will say "you fucking nigger" it will cause a great condemnation whereas racist expressions by black people are being tolerated and everybody perceive it easy and just give a smile on it.
> It seems to me that in _black areas _it is even demand to be racist towards white people(if you're black) and in those areas whites are not welcomed and there's a big feasibility to get punched or plundered if you are white but I've never heard that black person should be afraid in areas where the majority of people are whites.
> 
> Is it truth what I'm talking about? And should there be any arrangements against it?
> 
> Your opinions please!


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## karuna

I am not an American but I think that many places with black majority in the USA are high crime areas. You are more likely to get robbed or assaulted there regardless of your skin color but most victims are black people. Doesn't look like racism but rather the differences in socio-economic situation.


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## sallyk

Completely agree...



karuna said:


> I am not an American but I think that many places with black majority in the USA are high crime areas. You are more likely to get robbed or assaulted there regardless of your skin color but most victims are black people. Doesn't look like racism but rather the differences in socio-economic situation.


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## EmilyD

Let's define racism.  Here's a page of definitions: http://www.antiracistworkshop.org/define/def.html

As a white(or EuropeanAmerican) woman who married and had a child with a Black man (Africanamerican), this topic is dear to my heart.

Alas, I think* racism is widely tolerated in the US.
*
A few examples are:

1.The vastly disproportionate percentage of Black,Latin and Native American/Indian/FirstNation *people incarcerated *in our prisons (class is unequivocably a factor which affects access to legal services)...

2.  *Infant mortality* rate in the US...

3.  *Lack of access* given to Peoples of Color to positions of Authority in the mass media, film, tv, etc...

My work experiences have sadly provided opportunities to witness bigotry towards my clients.

_Nomi_


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## sallyk

I am asian born and raised in South america and also lived in asia for 6 years. I can tell you that people in south america and asia DO treat you different either in a good or bad way... I still think the US is a better place for minorities. (of course depends on where you live) 



EmilyD said:


> Let's define racism. Here's a page of definitions:
> 
> As a white(or EuropeanAmerican) woman who married and had a child with a Black man (Africanamerican), this topic is dear to my heart.
> 
> Alas, I think* racism is widely tolerated in the US.*
> 
> A few examples are:
> 
> 1.The vastly disproportionate percentage of Black,Latin and Native American/Indian/FirstNation *people incarcerated *in our prisons (class is unequivocably a factor which affects access to legal services)...
> 
> 2. *Infant mortality* rate in the US...
> 
> 3. *Lack of access* given to Peoples of Color to positions of Authority in the mass media, film, tv, etc...
> 
> My work experiences have sadly provided opportunities to witness bigotry towards my clients.
> 
> _Nomi_


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## Paparaciii

EmilyD said:


> Alas, I think* racism is widely tolerated in the US.
> *
> A few examples are:
> 
> 1.The vastly disproportionate percentage of Black,Latin and Native American/Indian/FirstNation *people incarcerated *in our prisons (class is unequivocably a factor which affects access to legal services)...
> 
> 2.  *Infant mortality* rate in the US...
> 
> 3.  *Lack of access* given to Peoples of Color to positions of Authority in the mass media, film, tv, etc...
> 
> My work experiences have sadly provided opportunities to witness bigotry towards my clients.
> 
> _Nomi_


But don't you think that racism is from both "sides"?


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## ChinitaBoba

Well, I have to say that I agree with Emily D.  But, I would also like to add that I am American.  I come from a mixed background (Black/white/native american).  My father is Black and my mother is mixed.  Her entire family is mixed.  I have a step-father who is Colombian (as in South American).  I have even lived in Bogotá, Colombia as well.  So I think I qualify to give an opinion from all sides.  The thing is that yes, many blacks do use racist terms and words in they're everyday vocab.  But when someone else does it, it is no longer okay.  I don't agere with them.  I feel that the playing board should be even.  Bcs one race uses the 'N' word, does that mean everyone else can't, No.  First of all, no one should use the word anyway.  I would also like to mention that it is portrayed by the media that all blacks are stupid, illiterate, "ghetto" and violent. But like another member mentioned, even the blacks get taken advantage of in their own neighborhood.  So obviously it's not a "race" issue.  It all boils down to class.  In Colombia I saw people who were racists.  The "white" colombians didn't like the "dark" or "morenos".  The negritos or morenitos were usually poorer (really everyone there is without money), while the "white" ones were more wealthier.  However, in the end, you would find these "white" latinos without money too.  

Long story short: as far as the US goes, yes racism is tolerated here.  It's now everyday life.  Unfortunately.  Even the younger children are being affected.  It doesn't make sense.


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## hlafor

_I am sorry.. I am in a hurry.. but am scribbling down  something quickly on this subject.._
_May be incoherent for now.. but would be more précis, should someone request it!!_
_Forgive my mistakes…_

_What is race –ism? Adding the suffix “ism” to a word implies the “superiority” of that thing compare to something else.  So “existentialism” would be the superiority of existence with respect to “essence”. Etc..._

_Do black men in __America__ think they are superior to whites?  Do you think?_

_That Mr. X wants to think that he is superior to Mr. Y for some aberrant reason is really his issue and then what? I have always questioned the mental stability of any one who feels the need to have to say that I am superior to someone for whatever reasons to validate his existence...So, you think you are, then what?   Can you cancel your final rendezvous with the dust of the earth?.. Neither the blacks nor the whites or the Asians or any one else can… Are we all so different from each other?_

_Now, the problem is this:_

_            It is when Mr. X prevents Mr. Y from having access to or benefiting from that which is necessary to provide for himself and his family simply because he belongs to a different race then…we’re in troubled waters!!! Then, the law steps in…A friend of mine once told me that (if she could get away with it) she would probably run over a black boy crossing the streets without waiting for the lights to be green.  Why, I asked?  Because they have to learn to wait!!! Why a black boy? I asked..   - I was just kidding, she said!!  What’s the matter with you? You can’t take a joke?_

_Yes, I can take a joke.  But this was no joke!!!  It slipped. A Freudian slip, may be? She was not aware that she had said “black”!!_

_The law does a little bit and restrains bigots from acting out their dark sides but only to a certain extent.  The real change has to come from within…_

_I think someone may have  mentioned earlier that most of crimes committed in the __US__ are by blacks..?Did he mean most crimes reported or committed?_
_Also, try to get a liquor license in a white neighborhood in the white areas of a major city in the __US__ for example.  You have to go thru almost hell!! But look at the black populated areas.. Almost, in every corner, there is one..Do you know why it’s so easy to get it?_

_Also, in the black populated areas high on drugs, do you think the poor black kids (who are selling them) have the money or the power to access these drugs?.. Who do you think promises the 12, 13 year old boy 100 dollars a day to sell this off the street for him?_

_You take a 12 year old boy whose parents do not even make 200 dollars a week in a big American city and you take a patron who makes such an offer to him? There is no easier equation to solve than this one…_
_I would like to to continue and do a better job at the presentation… but I have to go…_

_P.S I am sure by now some are wondering: Is he black or white? And this is where  problem starts!!!! Should it matter?  But, be careful with guessing!!_


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## alexacohen

hlafor said:


> _P.S I am sure by now some are wondering: Is he black or white? And this is where problem starts!!!! Should it matter? _


 
Well, no.
If you want to know, I was wondering where you come from. 
I'm not American, but I should say there are racist people everywhere.


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## TrentinaNE

hlafor said:


> What is race –ism?


From Merriam Webster:


> a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race


 


hlafor said:


> Do black men in America think they are superior to whites? Do you think?


Some probably do. Are you suggesting that *none *do?



hlafor said:


> I think someone may have mentioned earlier that most of crimes committed in the US are by blacks..?Did he mean most crimes reported or committed?


Either way, I'm sure the observation is wrong, just like the widespread belief that most recipients of government assistance (aka welfare) are black. Most are, in fact, white.



Paparaciii said:


> If white man will say "you fucking nigger" it will cause a great condemnation whereas racist expressions by black people are being tolerated and everybody perceive it easy and just give a smile on it.


I can't think of a racially-oriented word that can be applied to white people that carries anywhere *near* the hatred and denigration that are inherent in the "n-word." 

Elisabetta


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## hlafor

alexacohen

_Como Jaufré Rudel, “otra mar”._

_AlexaCohen, racism is indeed ubiquitous. You are right. Also, think of the absurdity:_
_Boy X is born of parents (A, B).  Boy. X did not choose them as parents. He happens to be born of them_
_AND_
_(A, B) happen to be whites therefore Boy X inherits the physical traits of (A, B)_

_Boy X grows up and somewhere during his social evolution learned and got _
_so proud of the fact that “luck” had him come out of the white couple (A, B)_
_That Boy X started detesting and or formed a certain hatred of *Boy Y* because he, _
_Boy Y  has inherited physical traits of his Black/Asian parents (C, D) _
__
_BOY X reasons that (unlike him) Boy Y must have chosen his parents!!  _
__
__
TrentinaNE  vbmenu_register("postmenu_3320040", true); 
__
__
Originally Posted by *hlafor* 
Do black men in America think they are superior to whites? Do you think?

Some probably do. Are you suggesting that *none *do?
_Some successful black men who have been raised to believe that it is money, ownership of nice cars, nice toys etc.. that define a man’s value may think that they are superior to poor whites because of that.  So, financial status would be used (in that case) as the factor in determining superiority..!!! Also another stupid idea..But, race superiority?…, I would have reservations!  But, you never know since ignorance is brave.. I would not be surprised if some, like their white counterparts, would make such an assertion either,,_


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## divisortheory

TrentinaNE said:


> Either way, I'm sure the observation is wrong, just like the widespread belief that most recipients of government assistance (aka welfare) are black. Most are, in fact, white.


 
Do you have a citation about the observation being wrong?  Otherwise it's just another random guess, akin to the people you imply are just making random guesses.


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## John Mirra

TrentinaNE said:


> I can't think of a racially-oriented word that can be applied to white people that carries anywhere *near* the hatred and denigration that are inherent in the "n-word."
> 
> Elisabetta


Er, pardon me, but there's no inherent hatred and denigration inherent to the n-word. Just as many blacks use it among themselves, whites could use it freely to the same effect. The only reason there's any hatred and denigration carried by the word is because people assign hatred and denigration to it. Most ironically, the only people who try to use nigger rudely and offensively are idiots, which poses the question: "Who is the real idiot? The inbred Southerner, or the person who urinates upon themselves in anger upon hearing the inbred Southerner mutter a racial slur?" If there were something inherently wrong with the word nigger, I'd see a point, but there really isn't anything inherently wrong with it.

In short, nigger comes from a Romantic word for black. Simple as that. It was primarily used at a time when speakers would have contempt for the people they called niggers, but I don't hear females whining about being called "women", and they've obviously had it pretty bad, too. I personally find it pretty hilarious that in America the word "nigger" is unspeakable but words that are inherently hateful are common in vocabulary (most commonly "gyp" and "fag").

As for stats, I can vouch for the first link, but the second is for whoever to plow through and maybe find some more decent information. 

ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/
race.htm

 ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvus/
race.htm

Anyhow, I'd say blacks commit more crime in America, however it's often because they're economically disadvantaged, quite simply. Then again, that's hardly an excuse for anyone to go around shooting people caught in the crossfire of a gang war, stealing property, or raping folks. Poor whites commit more crime than rich whites, all the same, however poor minorities far outnumber poor whites, so they get most of the rap. Beyond that, all sorts of foolish pundits are sensationalizing every single crime committed by illegal immigrants from farting in church to fatal accidents when driving while intoxicated.

Beyond that, there's too much to say (especially as a Southerner, myself). America has a sad and deranged history when it comes to non-white races, between enslaving blacks, genocide against the Natives, exploitation of Chinese workers, internment of Japanese citizens, and now the strange and developing view we have of Central and South Americans.

Something interesting to note is that in America, when a minority is being racist against a white person, it's called "reverse racism", which seems quite a racist term in itself.
* 
Summary*: People have done many stupid and cruel things in America and they're still going on today, but to a lesser extent, thank God. Some people think that blacks should be able to do stupid and cruel things to whites because our ancestors did stupid and cruel things to their ancestors. It seems all too frequently these days that the only thing the civil rights movement accomplished for blacks was giving them the right to be as stupid and cruel as whites, as many blacks squander the freedom they've been given by turning to crime because the odds are stacked against them, at which point whites become distrustful and make it even harder for blacks, who are now even more disinclined to succeed. Everybody has screwed up, and maybe screwed up beyond repair.


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## LaReinita

John Mirra said:


> *Summary*: People have done many stupid and cruel things in America and they're still going on today, but to a lesser extent, thank God. *Some people think that blacks should be able to do stupid and cruel things to whites because our ancestors did stupid and cruel things to their ancestors*. It seems all too frequently these days that the only thing the civil rights movement accomplished for blacks was giving them the right to be as stupid and cruel as whites, as many blacks squander the freedom they've been given by turning to crime because the odds are stacked against them, at which point whites become distrustful and make it even harder for blacks, who are now even more disinclined to succeed. Everybody has screwed up, and maybe screwed up beyond repair.


 
This may be a touch off topic, but I would like to add something regarding the statement I have put in bold. I'm really starting to think this statement is true. Maybe I should have started a new thread for this comment, but this one small comment seems like it might be relevant to this topic just a little bit. I work as a cocktail server on the weekends and I must say as a white woman, that about 85% of my black customers don't tip AT ALL. When you think most people wouldn't ask for change, I find some of my customers waiting for like 50 cents. Maybe because I'm white, I don't deserve a dime, in their opinion. Sometimes, I feel like since I'm white, black people think I owe them something. I know this is a crude generalization and I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, I truly am, but I'm not making this up. I think this is a perfect example of what has been bolded above . . Now, we (white people) should work without pay.

Once again, I do not intend to offend. I'm just speaking from my personal experiences.


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## alexacohen

hlafor said:


> alexacohen
> 
> _Boy X is born of parents (A, B). Boy. X did not choose them as parents. He happens to be born of them_
> _AND_
> _(A, B) happen to be whites therefore Boy X inherits the physical traits of (A, B)_
> 
> _Boy X grows up and somewhere during his social evolution learned and got _
> _so proud of the fact that “luck” had him come out of the white couple (A, B)_
> _That Boy X started detesting and or formed a certain hatred of *Boy Y* because he, _
> _Boy Y has inherited physical traits of his Black/Asian parents (C, D) _
> 
> _BOY X reasons that (unlike him) Boy Y must have chosen his parents!! _


 
There are absurd people everywhere. And they belong to every nation. I suposse if there is indeed life out there there will be absurd aliens, too.


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## TrentinaNE

divisortheory said:


> Do you have a citation about the observation being wrong?  Otherwise it's just another random guess, akin to the people you imply are just making random guesses.


I'm going on recollections of what I've read and common sense.  Blacks account for 12% of the U.S. population as of 2005 -- see wiki -- and are unlikely to account for more than 50% of the country's *committed* crimes.  (Though they may be more likely to be arrested and convicted than whites -- especially when you include white-collar crime.)   If you want more research, you have the same access to the internet that I do.  



John Mirra said:


> Er, pardon me, but there's no inherent hatred and denigration inherent to the n-word. Just as many blacks use it among themselves, whites could use it freely to the same effect. The only reason there's any hatred and denigration carried by the word is because people assign hatred and denigration to it. Most ironically, the only people who try to use nigger rudely and offensively are idiots,


Thanks for clarifying the meaning of "inherent."  Perhaps I should have said "inherent in the use of the word nigger."  But my point still stands:  I can't think of any word a black could apply to a white that elicits the same visceral impact as a white calling a black the n-word.  And it *is* used by people that one would not ordinarily call idiots as a way of exerting their (real or presumed) power.

Elisabetta


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## LaReinita

I must say that when Blacks call Whites "Crackers" . . they have every intention of it having the same impact. . . Or even . . scratch that . . "White bitch" can be quite vulgar . . it's not always the word, but the intention that the speaker has.

Mind you all, I am not racist, but I live in a very diverse place which makes it impossible for me to ignore racism . . no matter where it is coming from.


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## TrentinaNE

In my 51 years, I've never heard the word "cracker" -- but experiences differ, obviously.    In the term "white bitch" I'd say it's the "bitch" part (a slur against females) that has the impact.

Perhaps more germane to the original post:  I work in Boston, which is a very racially segregated city.  In the area where my office is located, I rarely see black people shopping or even employed as clerks in the stores.  Yet just a scant mile away (easily accessible by public transportation or a 15-20 minute walk) is a commercial area where one encounters many black people.  I have no proof, but my suspicion is that the "upscale" areas that are frequented by (mostly white) tourists use their private security guard forces to rid the area of "undesirables" on any pretext available.  Or perhaps minorities have gotten tired of the inevitable scrutiny and hassle by such "private police" over time and simply stay away.  At any rate, the differences within mere blocks are very striking.

Elisabetta


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## divisortheory

TrentinaNE said:


> I'm going on recollections of what I've read and common sense. Blacks account for 12% of the U.S. population as of 2005 -- see wiki -- and are unlikely to account for more than 50% of the country's *committed* crimes.


 
While that may be a literal translation, when people say "Most of the country's crimes are commited by X" I don't think they are talking about >50% of the crimes.  I think they are saying "If you compare the rates of crime commited by all ethnic groups in the country, X's rate is the highest."


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## Outsider

LaReinita said:


> [...] about 85% of my black customers don't tip AT ALL. [...] Maybe because I'm white, I don't deserve a dime, in their opinion.


Well, you were there and I wasn't, but could that be because in general they have lower incomes than your white customers?


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## _forumuser_

Or it might be because people who didn't visit bars or restaurants when this custom was introduced don't understand the concept of obligatory "tipping". I have lived in NYC for a few years and I've never understood why it is called "tipping" when you _have to_ tip 20% of the check (20%!) to avoid being chased by your waiter when you leave.


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## TrentinaNE

divisortheory said:


> when people say "Most of the country's crimes are commited by X" I don't think they are talking about >50% of the crimes.  I think they are saying "If you compare the rates of crime commited by all ethnic groups in the country, X's rate is the highest."


Then they are misspeaking.


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## Brioche

EmilyD said:


> Let's define racism.  Here's a page of definitions: http://www.antiracistworkshop.org/define/def.html
> 
> As a white(or EuropeanAmerican) woman who married and had a child with a Black man (Africanamerican), this topic is dear to my heart.
> 
> Alas, I think* racism is widely tolerated in the US.
> *
> A few examples are:
> 
> 1.The vastly disproportionate percentage of Black,Latin and Native American/Indian/FirstNation *people incarcerated *in our prisons (class is unequivocably a factor which affects access to legal services)...
> 
> _Nomi_



It is commonly held that the high rate of imprisonment of "people of color" is proof of racial prejudice.

If you look at the prison population, you'll see that it is more than 90% male.

Yet nobody claims that this extreme disproportion is proof of prejudice against men. And there are no "affirmative action" programs to try to even up this imbalance!


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## TrentinaNE

Brioche said:


> It is commonly held that the high rate of imprisonment of "people of color" is proof of racial prejudice.
> 
> If you look at the prison population, you'll see that it is more than 90% male.
> 
> Yet nobody claims that this extreme disproportion is proof of prejudice against men.


I think you would have to look at studies (and there probably are some out there, but I don't know where) that compare the rate of incarceration to the rate of crime commission.  In other words, are men who commit crimes more likely to be tried and convicted than women?  Are blacks who commit crimes more likely to be tried and convicted than whites?  I seem to recall reading somewhere along the line that conviction rates and prison terms are higher when blacks are accused of crimes against white victims than when whites are accused of crimes against black victims.

Elisabetta


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## _forumuser_

Speaking from my experience, many Europeans have the wrong ideas about racism in America. I have lived in both continents, and I think Europeans have much to learn from how the US handles the race question today, at least in the urban areas. Some amount of "segregation" is natural, since people tend to want to hang out with who they perceive as their folks. But overall I have seen greater awareness of what it means to share the same living space with people of other races in New York or L.A. than in, say, my home country.


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## LaReinita

Outsider said:


> Well, you were there and I wasn't, but could that be because in general they have lower incomes than your white customers?


 
No, for example: This one table I had THIS EVENING had a bill of $29.84, paid with a $100 bill and left me the 16 cents only because I didn't have the change at that moment in my personal bank. He actually said "Keep the change." . . OH GEE THANKS!


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## LaReinita

_forumuser_ said:


> Or it might be because people who didn't visit bars or restaurants when this custom was introduced don't understand the concept of obligatory "tipping". I have lived in NYC for a few years and I've never understood why it is called "tipping" when you _have to_ tip 20% of the check (20%!) to avoid being chased by your waiter when you leave.


 
Well, I find it hard to believe that anyone is that ignorant that they don't know that you are supposed to tip.  That's basically saying that only the black people are uneducated in that area, which I don't believe is the case.  It's simply another way to express racism in a more hidden way.


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## ireney

Moderator's note: Please keep the discussion focused on the main question. Tipping habits of different people and/or ethnic groups and/or nationalities can be discussed in a separate thread.


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## uio

At the end of the day, racism makes for good business.  The United States, France, Great Britain, Spain, to name a few, all became rich and powerful through slavery.  Isn`t racism just a modern-day extension of that?  We talk about "freedom" and "liberty," but those words have little sustenance without placing "financial" before them.  And racism in the United States is a problem partly because people are recognizing the issue.  Here in Ecuador, racism is so much a part of the culture, it is "arraigado," (the Spanish word really explains it best), and not questioned.  In the United States, we call people "ignorant racists" as an insult.  In Ecuador, the racists call people of other races "ignorant," and that is the foundation of their racism.  They see racism as being the obvious way to deal with the "ignorant" people that surround them.  These ignorant people lack education because the (generally) white, European descendents make education either too expensive for them or economically impossible, since children need to bring income to the household.  By keeping people "ignorant," racism become logical and necessary for the "ruling class."  It is so much easier to keep the labor force in check when they don`t have the education to understand that they and their rights are protected in the very constitution of the country.  And they feel too embarassed about being ignorant to do anything about it.  

So, I say that racism in the United States is a step in the right direction.  Until we define and identify a problem, there is no possiblity for solution.


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## Brioche

Racism is not good for business, and neither is ignorance.

The ignorant and the uneducated are unproductive. 
In broad terms, the more educated people a country has, the more productive the country is, and the richer.


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## EmilyD

There is a *satirical* website addressing some of these issues:

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com

Nomi


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## uio

Brioche said:


> Racism is not good for business, and neither is ignorance.
> 
> The ignorant and the uneducated are unproductive.
> In broad terms, the more educated people a country has, the more productive the country is, and the richer.



It is an obvious truth that the more educated people a country has, the more productive it is.  However, if one imagines the way the ruling class of third world countries thinks, educating their people is scary/time consuming/expensive/just plain annoying...they prefer to leave them in the dark.
Once people ARE educated and begin to have the possibility of being productive THANKS TO their education (as in the United States), they become AWARE of the injustices done to them.  And they educate those who cause the injustices as to what is happening, and the racists understand how wrong it is to be one.  The unfortuante thing is that this process is so long it seems endless, but when it comes down to it, each individual makes up society, and the United States CAN overcome its racism once whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, purple people eaters, EVERYONE takes part in the cycle of education.


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## alexacohen

But keeping the citizens ignorant and uneducated does not imply the existence of racism in a ruling class. Any fascist government needs its citizens either uneducated or brainwashed so they won't challenge their rulers. But both the rulers and the ruled may belong to the same nation.
Racism goes deeper than that; if it was only a matter of education there wouldn't be educated people who were racists. And there are.


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## Outsider

alexacohen said:


> But keeping the citizens ignorant and uneducated does not imply the existence of racism in a ruling class. Any fascist government needs its citizens either uneducated or brainwashed so they won't challenge their rulers.


Any government/elite prefers its "subjects" to be uneducated, period. They just differ on the strategies that they use to achieve that ignorance. In fascist and third world countries, it's through brutal, transparent oppression. In democracies it's more subtly, like promoting fake ideologies.

Racism is one such ideology: while the lower classes are busy dividing themselves into blacks and whites and whatnot, the elites laugh all their way to the bank.


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## Fernando

Germany in the 30s was possibly the most learned people in the world... and certainly was not the least racist. Darwinism supplied a new panoplia to "intelligent" racists. 

So, though I think education is certainly a good weapon against racism, for sure not any education is Ok to get rid of it.


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## Fernando

Outsider said:


> like promoting fake ideologies.



I fail to follow your argument.



Outsider said:


> Racism is one such ideology: while the lower classes are busy dividing themselves into blacks and whites and whatnot, the elites laugh all their way to the bank.



Of course not. In Uganda, the "elites" were physically eliminated because some politicians perceived it was a good idea to throw the "working classes" against them.

Ditto for many SE Asia countries, where the identification of Chinese with "ruling elites" always pays off. Politicians who promote that can be from the "ruling elite" or not.


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## Outsider

Fernando said:


> I fail to follow your argument.


Racism is what I would call a fake ideology. And racism has not only survived, but sometimes thrived in democratic societies. I don't mean by this that racism only exists in democracies, or that all democracies are necessarily racist, of course.

One thing I admire about the aristocracy, although I am not a monarchist, is that they never took racism seriously. While the bourgoisie was concocting convoluted race theories to justify its ends and means, kings and queens and noblemen kept quitely marrying each other all across the continent without regard for "racial" lines. 



Fernando said:


> Of course not. In Uganda, the "elites" were physically eliminated because some politicians perceived it was a good idea to throw the "working classes" against them.
> 
> Ditto for many SE Asia countries, where the identification of Chinese with "ruling elites" always pays off. Politicians who promote that can be from the "ruling elite" or not.


The elites and the ruling classes are fluid things. Sometimes they are split, and there are power struggles.

By the way, I did not mean to imply that everyone in the elites is immoral. But an important chunk of them has historically behaved immorally. I don't think you can deny that.

And from what little I have read about the history of racism, the ideology of "race" and "racism" was very clearly initiated and fostered for political reasons.


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## Fernando

Outsider said:


> One thing I admire about the aristocracy, although I am not a monarchist, is that they never took racism seriously. While the bourgoisie was concocting convoluted race theories to justify its ends and means, kings and queens and noblemen kept quitely marrying each other all across the continent without regard for "racial" lines.



Well, in a way they were a race on their own, were not they? 



Outsider said:


> By the way, I did not mean to imply that everyone in the elites is immoral. But an important chunk of them has historically behaved immorally. I don't think you can deny that.



How should I? I belong to a religion whose founder had a deep distrust of elites and preferred to tie with prostitutes and publicans.



Outsider said:


> And from what little I have read about the history of racism, the ideology of "race" and "racism" was very clearly initiated and fostered for political reasons.



I really think that Hitler was a racist. Maybe he used the dumbness of the masses but he believed in the very scum he preached.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Outsider said:


> One thing I admire about the aristocracy, although I am not a monarchist, is that they never took racism seriously. While the bourgoisie was concocting convoluted race theories to justify its ends and means, kings and queens and noblemen kept quitely marrying each other all across the continent without regard for "racial" lines.



When was the last time you saw a European monarch marrying a black person?


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## Bilma

Well, there is a "new" form of racism in U.S.A. blacks against Hispanics! It is disgusting to see how blacks treat Mexicans here.


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## EmilyD

There is, not surprisingly, plenty of prejudice _within _the *Hispanoparlante*(o hispanohablante?) communities...
*
Samuel Betances*, a Puerto Rican sociologist, in Chicago has spoken (and written?) about this.  He recited a poem, _" La india en la cocina" _in a workshop in Rhode Island many years ago.  I hope someone knows the author...

And color prejudice in the Black community is well documented.  A friend of mine shared about having to take, "the paper bag test" in order to be eligible to attend a party (as a child).i.e. if your hand was darker than the bag, you were not invited...

This topic is deep and sad, and perhaps, "the Original Sin" of this country...

Nomi


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## ChinitaBoba

Yes, you're right there is a lot of prejudice within the Hispanic community.  I posted a repy in another similar forum on racism.  I lived in Colombia and witnessed it myself.  Coming from  a mixed background and dealing with that here in the States, then taking it to South America and viewing it LIVE there, was really interesting.  My skin complection is very different, so I did stick out a little, and that gets me into and out of a lot of trouble.  However, the hispanics are just as prejudice as anyone else.  Even my dad is guilty of being prejudice.  He is Colombian (white colombian) and because of the way he grew up, he at times, makes stereotypes on other latinos.

I would also like to add to what was said earlier about black against hispanics.  It's obsurd how blacks treat other hispanics.  They're both minorities.  How can you both be prejudice when neither are the majority?  It makes no sense.


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## vince

I'm curious to know what life is like for dark-skinned ("Black") Latinos in the U.S.. Do lighter-skin Latinos treat these people as "black" (i.e. "African-American")? Or as one of them?


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## Solbrillante

WHEW!I agree that race relations (african-american/white american) in the US just might be beyond repair, but hopefully the up and coming generation will get it right.  Here's what makes me crazy.  I work with a female who has the potential to earn a great living.  She calls in sick often to keep her wages below a certain level so she can get government assisted day care for her children.  She also gets other forms of government assistance with food, etc.  She gets pulled over for not having proper registration on her car and is telling me that she will have to buy a sticker(off a license plate-stolen) off someone in her neighborhood to get her by for now.  Then she tells me that she thought she was going to jail.  I said why would they send you to jail for having an expired license plate and she proceeded to tell me about all her traffic tickets and how she was driving without a legitimate license, but the cop let her go with $250 ticket and removed the bad plates from her car and she can't legally register the vehicle until she cleans up some $2000 worth of traffic violations.  I suggest to her that she  not try buying a stolen license plate sticker as she is just compounding her mistakes and she tells me that I need to learn to do things the "black way"...nobody in the hood would pay the price of vehicle registration when you can get one of these stickers for $10 off the street.  Needless to say I was speechless.  Then she goes on to say that she was only pulled over because of racial profiling.  This is what is wrong with the black culture of the US.  They admittedly do things the so called  black way and then turn around and call you racist for identifying these types of things with their culture.  The sad part is that I really like this woman and feel she has alot of potential.  She obviously feels entitled to what she does as she isn't shy about talking about it.  How do you change this mentality?


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## Trevobrien

Solbrillante said:


> How do you change this mentality?



The only solution is the individual.

I do not think that society owes any obligation to these people. If they want to continue surviving off the crumbs of civilization, then so be it. I just don't want to have to subsidize it with my earnings.

Those individuals who have self-respect and decide to make a better life for themselves will be rewarded. It happens all the time.


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## EmilyD

> [Trevobrien:]
> I do not think that society owes any obligation to *these people*.


*Some* times when the phrases:

"those people", "these people", and also  "you people" are employed in the United States in political dialogue, it becomes a kind of_* code *_for racist euphemisms and pseudointellectual evangelisation,et cet.

I relate this knowing that many readers of this site are (as I am) learning words and phrases from each other.  

I do not recommend using the above phrases, *if it is possible to use more specific ones.

N.B.  This is a comment on racism in the US, not a response to the individual who used the phrase!!

*Regards to all,

_Nomi_


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## Solbrillante

EmilyD said:


> *Some* times when the phrases:
> 
> "those people", "these people", and also  "you people" are employed in the United States in political dialogue, it becomes a kind of_* code *_for racist euphemisms and pseudointellectual evangelisation,et cet.
> words and phrases from each other.
> 
> I do not recommend using the above phrases, *if it is possible to use more specific ones.
> 
> N.B.  This is a comment on racism in the US, not a response to the individual who used the phrase!!
> 
> *Regards to all,
> 
> _Nomi_



It is a good thing to point this out as I have witnessed an incident regarding this.  I work in a very diversified workplace.  We have numerous departments with supervisors in charge of maybe 20 people.  Sometimes when a manager gives a message to a supervisor he/she might say "Tell your people blah, blah,blah..."  On one occasion the message was given by a white manager to a black supervisor whose employees were mostly black.  It suddenly became a heated racial issue.  I do think that common sense should prevail in a situation like this.  It's unfortunate that black Americans from the US feel the need to be constantly on the defense.  Often times I feel they find racism where none exists.  I know that we, as a country, are trying to overcome years of segregation etc...but if every individual black American from the US would just look in the mirror and say I have value, I am somebody, I am beautiful- -we would not have as many issues as we do today.  If you cannot  even get the majority of  the blacks in the US to stop degrading themselves and associating negative behavior with their culture how can we possibly move forward.  As they say, it is difficult to move forward if you are constantly looking in the rearview mirror!


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## CitoyenDuMonde

Solbrillante,

I can't help but to respond to your pre-assumptions of black americans. Reading your post regarding your co-worker that is a thief and has no concern of her own welfare nor the law was very amusing. But for you to *believe* that her "negative lifestyle is "black culture" is very sad and alarming to say the least. You are painting a very diversified group of people with one paint brush. Hasn't it dawn on you that maybe she is just a bad individual that happens to be black. 

The dilemma is when each one of us generalise which is the easiest thing to do without making a full analysis of a particular group. I can assure you that whether white or black, etc etc, we'll find good and bad people from each respective race. The poor people of each respective group has a higher possibility of criminal behavior.

In North America where labeling was the easiest way to marginalise a group of people from advancing academically,economically or even setting laws that systematically kept/keeps a certain group of people from upward mobility simply because of their race. The most prevalent labeling today is the so called "latino" race where everyone that speaks spanish are seen "politically" as one ethnic group. They even label Salma Hayek "mejicana" and Penelope Cruz "espoñola" as the same race and share the same cultural. Hell, Sammy Sosa "dominican" is part of that propaganda and would check of the "latino" box on an application but if he would happen to commit a crime, I am sure we would not be described as a latino man. 

The point I am trying to make here is that we need to judge each individual respectively rather than generalising a whole group of people. We need to learn about the atrocities which are no less than 50 years old, where a person of color could not go to the same school as a white person nor could they sit next to them in the USA. At one time Italians, Jews, Irish were seen as non-whites, worked menial jobs along side black americans and faced the same discrimination. When black americans achieved success and were owners of boutiques, banks etcetera, they were burned down forced to lose everything they had worked so hard to obtain"Alabama". Unfortunately, the government did not intervene nor did they seek out the culprits that commited these crimes. Finally, with the civil rights movement these group people were protected by the law and given an opportunity to have a leverage playing ground where they can compete, but the reality is more white females and immigrants from european countries have benefited from the civil rights movement. 

It is so easy to criticise a group of people that has been systematically and deliberatly oppressed for centuries rather than empathising why many have fallen into the forever cycle of poverty which breeds crime rather than understanding or analysing, why? Explain to me, why a black corporate professional that earns a six figure salary with expensive attire still strikes fear where white ladies clench on to their purse and white men reply "what's up man/bro?" to feel a sort of bonding or making themselves feel comfortable/hip when speaking to a black person? Again these pre-assumptions are the issues that should be address.  I think both groups are condition to think a certain way about each other without taking the energy to say let me judge this individual for who he/she is rather than their whole race.

Today, we have two marginalise groups of minorities "economically" latinos/blacks quarreling for not understanding that they both are caught in the same system of poverty and violence. Another point I would like to make is to see how west coast latinos would interact with east coast latinos. The issue has nothing to do with ones race rather their socio-economic background and even then we'll still have good and bad people no matter what race.


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## Solbrillante

I am sorry, you are missing the point. It was the black female that used the term "doing it the black way" in relationship to her actions.  She, the black woman is the one associating these negative actions with the black culture, not me.  This is not the first time that I personally have heard this expression by black people associating negative behavior as being "the black way".  I have heard "don't make me go black on you" used in a very 
aggressive and negative way also.  I don't think you really read what was written because you were too blinded by the idea that you found racism WHERE NONE EXISTED!


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## CitoyenDuMonde

Solbrillante said:


> It is a good thing to point this out as I have witnessed an incident regarding this. I work in a very diversified workplace. We have numerous departments with supervisors in charge of maybe 20 people. Sometimes when a manager gives a message to a supervisor he/she might say "Tell your people blah, blah,blah..." On one occasion the message was given by a white manager to a black supervisor whose employees were mostly black. It suddenly became a heated racial issue. I do think that common sense should prevail in a situation like this. It's unfortunate that *black Americans from the US feel the need to be constantly on the defense.* *Often times I feel they find racism where none exists. I know that we, as a country, are trying to overcome years of segregation etc...but if every individual black American from the US would just look in the mirror and say I have value, I am somebody, I am beautiful- -we would not have as many issues as we do today. If you cannot even get the majority of the blacks in the US to stop degrading themselves and associating negative behavior with their culture how can we possibly move forward. As they say, it is difficult to move forward if you are constantly looking in the rearview mirror!*


 

Solbrillante,

First off, I did not find racism in your comments at all just very amusing/funny. I actually think it is a good thing we are stating our opinions on this subject whether it hurts or not, at least we as human beings will better understand black americans.

I would like for you to read your statements in bold and take time to think about it. Because of your experience with a/several black americans condoning these negative behavior, you are insinuating that they need to look in the mirror and forget about their past. I guess these irresponsable/uneducated people will suddenly awaken from their dormant state of mind and acquire the necessary tools to compete with other groups(black & white) that had all the necessary resources to become productive in our society. As you mentioned, they should just forget about their cruel treatment and laws that were implemented to keep them from economically getting ahead. Every other ethnic group can get compensated for their cruel treatement in the past and tell their story over and over again. They can have foundations/programs to help their off spring better their economic situation. They can offer land to their off spring to build their own country and give grants, preferential loans (low APR) to start corporations but the black american just needs to shut up and get over it. His-story doesn't need to be told over again nor shall we have compassion for their cruel treatment in the past. These people just need to get over it and move on. Hmm!!!, this doesn't sound fair to me. Regardless, many black americans are still successful despite 3 centuries plus head start of other groups. In many cases these people still cross the finish line ahead of other groups overcoming thier trials and tribulations in the USA. 


Again I will reiterate that their is a parallel between poor education and crime no matter what race. Try to have a better understanding of their history and put yourself in their shoes to see that the sun doesn't shine on every door. We all need to do our part in order to have a productive society for all "equally".


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## ireney

Moderator's note: The last posts border dangerously close to a personal argument. Please remember that personal opinions and examples can only be used to highlight a more general opinion and are not to be argued over in the public forums.


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## Solbrillante

CitoyenDumunde, may I ask you what is at all funny or amusing about a person with great potential just throwing it away?

You say that I'm basing my comments on a conversation with just a few black individuals, I suggest that maybe you read any urban newspaper here in the US and you will find daily lack of respect for life in the black community.

Not to bring Oprah into the picture, but here you have one of the richest women in the US and she builds a school for impoverished girls in South Africa?  Why South Africa? Because according to reports, if she built the school here in the US, the girls would get beaten up in their own neighborhoods for trying to better themselves.  Why is that?

I work with a very dark-skinned black man who just purchased his first home.  He told me he bought in a all-white neighborhood because he couldn't trust that other blacks wouldn't be envious of his success and mess with him.

My sister taught in an urban school and the kids would beat up the little girls who would get their hair done or wear a nice clothes because they were jealous of them.

I feel it is no longer the color of the black man's skin that is holding him back, but the culture of black Americans in the US.  There is such lack of respect for human life, no emphasis put on education and a willingness to just throw in the towel.  Nobody says that overcoming the residue of slavery is easy.. but there is a saying that if what you're doing isn't working, then try something different.  Might I suggest that it's time for black Americans in the US to try something different!


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## EmilyD

I am a white Jewish woman (or Jewish white...) who has had the good fortune to work and live in several predominantly Black and Latino environments.

People have not only opened their offices to me, but their homes, kitchens, family stories. I have met a dog "that only barks at white people" and befriended her.

To say "_the_ black community", as white folks sometimes do, is inherently limiting. My friends from the South are culturally distinct from my friends from the Northeast or Midwest. Cape Verdean Blacks, and Liberian and Nigerian Blacks have "communities" and, not surprisingly, people marry into families with eclectic backgrounds, linguistic, economic, religious and spiritual traditions.

I have witnessed how a person driving a car is seen as Black, before being seen for having an ethnicity, et cet. When I walk into a store, my motives are rarely questioned. When someone of darker complexion does, that is sadly not the case.

If I am clearly "with" someone from a different caste, then I too am suspect.

My great gradfather could change his name from *Maslovata* (sorry for the misspelling--I know no Russian) to *Miller* and eventually blend in(or assimilate, not the same thing...) but this option won't work for my Cambodian and Hmong friends....

Racism in the U.S., and probably in many places, can not be easily detached from other oppressions. It will never be an easy topic to discuss honestly, but _*I will always be grateful for those who have helped me examine my life and improve my own behavior.

*Nomi
_


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## Solbrillante

There is no doubt that living in a rainbow world enhances ones life and opens the world to so many new experiences and so many opportunities for friendships.  I too, have had the blessing of living and working in very diverse settings and have seen blatant discrimination first -hand towards many a friend of mine.  It is absolutely heart breaking to witness the atrocities of mankind.  I know that some of my comments can come across as being closed-minded, but these comments are not derived from observation from afar, but through day to day interaction.  Yes, it is true that, as with any form of stereotyping ,  one cannot say ALL, EVERYBODY, of a certain race or a certain color is one way or another.  Yes, it is true that there exists a distinct difference between  urban black Americans in the US and southern blacks.  But what I am witnessing is a  cultural  acceptance that if a black man/woman is to succeed in everyday America- that it is thought to be a threat to their blackness.  That they are somehow "acting white".  This is not seen amongst other ethnicities and black America is being left further and further behind.  I would like to single-handedly be able to change this attitude and I know that through dialog and "keeping it real" we can open the doors of communication and to not only  point the finger the other way, but also back at ourselves.


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## Cristina Allende

Elisabetta, it doesn't matter if you can't think of any word directed to a white person that has the same connotation as the n-word. All can be accomplished through the f-word (for both sides). Now, I am still in high school and what I am saying is true. Black people call themselves the n-word! I have witnessed this. If it is sooo derogatory (spelling?) then why are they using the term themselves???? Also, Indians (Native-Americans) are the same way. They want to be called "Native-Americans," then "Indians," then "Indian" is racial condemnation, then it's not. I don't know what to call them now. To me the word "black" "Indian" and "white" are all acceptable.


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## tinlizzy

Cristina Allende said:


> I am a National Merit Semifinalist and had to work hard all the way to get to be a Semifinalist.


 


> there is a special Black National Merit competition.......There is no special White competition.


 See first quote. You just said that you did not qualify for the white National Merit Scholarship. Furthermore, blacks consider the segregation of the National Merit Scholarship to be an insult on their intelligence. Read this from The Journal Of Blacks In Higher Education. It was segregated by whites, so the issue you have is one with your own race.



> This is just one of the many injustices of reverse discrimination against whites.


 That is absurd and if it is not absurd then name the many injustices (and make sure they were initiated by blacks rather than whites wishing to appear non-racist).


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## scotu

Cristina Allende said:


> Now, I am still in high school and what I am saying is true. Black people call themselves niggers! I have witnessed this. If it is sooo derogatory (spelling?) then why are they using the term themselves????


I get weary of hearing this racist argument that use of obscene hate words can't be bad because the particular ethnic group to which they apply the word, uses that word among themselves. 

When a black greets another black with "what's up, nigga" It's a expression of respect and affection. 
When a white says "What are you doing, nigger?" There is no respect and certainly no love intended, 

scotu


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## scotu

Cristina Allende said:


> I am a *white *senior in high school, and I have just finished up all my standardized tests (SAT, ACT, and PSAT). I almost scored perfect on the first two, and on the PSAT I scored in the 99th percentile. I am a National Merit Semifinalist and had to work hard all the way to get to be a Semifinalist.


 
You certainly have a lot to be proud of, congratulations. 
Is it significant that "white" (*in bold red, no less*) is at the top of your list?


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## Fernando

scotu said:


> You certainly have a lot to be proud of, congratulations.
> Is it significant that "white" (*in bold red, no less*) is at the top of your list?



No, since it was totally relevant for her argument.


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## scotu

Fernando said:


> No, since it was totally relevant for her argument.


I disagree, the fact that she is *white *has no relevance to her (fallacious)argument, which as I understand it, is: 





> [_the fact that_] ...there is no special White competition.....is just one of the many injustices of reverse discrimination against whites.


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## cuchuflete

_A tale for the young–of all ages:
_
Once upon a time, a majority, by dint of its majority status, and not as a result
of any particular merit, had all the special privileges and benefits available in a society.

This situation left all those who were not members of the majority in a not very 
nice or comfortable position.  Most members of the majority didn't notice, or didn't care, or both.

Things evolved, as things tend to do in most societies.  Some attempts were made to
partially redress the unfair assignment of privileges to those who, by accident of birth, were members of the majority.

Suddenly, many members of the majority noticed that there were people around who
were different, and that they were receiving some of the privileges previously held exclusively by the majority.  

A great uproar ensued. Some majority members decided that exclusive ownership
of all privileges was an entitlement, and that it was being stolen from them.  They
adopted the posture of mistreated _victims_.   There was much howling and whining.

In the meantime, the majority continued to own, possess, and even control most
privileges and benefits.  The majority members who were not disposed to whine and
howl dispensed a few small droplets of opportunity, not privilege, to those who were not of the majority.

Nothing much really changed.  The misperception of the world as a zero sum game, in which a modest benefit for some was wrongly perceived as a reduction in the sincures of others, added decibels to discourse.


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## alexacohen

scotu said:


> I disagree, the fact that she is white has no relevance to her (fallacious)argument, which as I understand it, is:
> 
> 
> 
> _the fact that] ...there is no special White competition.....is just one of the many injustices of reverse discrimination against whites. _
Click to expand...

 
Scotu, I'm not familiar with the U.S. system. So I'd like to get this right:
There is a National Merit Scholarship open to everybody; and there are others for special groups, such as inmigrants, minorities, etc.
Do I get it right?
We don't have here anything similar. What we have are the famous (or infamous) I.Q. tests for schoolchildren, which the children from inmigrant communities used to fail. Of course, this was not because those children were less clever than the native Spanish, but because I.Q. tests are too much based in the perception of reality that we have.
So, now we have different I.Q. tests for the different communities.
I assume that the National Merit Scholarships are different because they take into account the same principle?


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## Fernando

As far as I know, affirmative action does not (necessarily) assume that minorities have lower marks because of cultural handicaps (different perceptions).

I understand that pro-positive discrimation people think that:

1) Minorities get lower marks because they are handicapped (worse cultural background, poorer families with less access to books, etc.)

2) It is socially desirable to get similar percentages of minorities in all posts in order to encourage member of minorities and discourage to create "white ghettos" in the highest posts.

As an example, it is possible to be a short policeman in UK only if you are a woman or a member of some groups. Obviously, how high you are does not depend on your cultural misperception.


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## scotu

alexacohen said:


> Scotu, I'm not familiar with the U.S. system. So I'd like to get this right


 
There is a National Merit Scholarship Corporation that grants scholarships based on a national exam given on the same day to all high school juniors who choose to take the test. It is open to everybody that chooses to take the exam. Preference is given to the highest scoring children of employees of sponsoring companies and additional preference is given high scoring students based on need. This oportunity is open to everybody based on their test scores; There is another program sponsored by the same organization called the National Achievement Scholorship Program. This program is restricted to African-Americans. Presumably this additional program exists because fewer African-Americans test in the 99th percentile so it is a way to provide African Americans with scholorship opportunities. This test is only indirectly related to IQ.

Since your question and my answer are pretty much off thread we should have no objection if the mods delete them.


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## alexacohen

Fernando said:


> As far as I know, affirmative action does not (necessarily) assume that minorities have lower marks because of cultural handicaps (different perceptions).


Fernando, what I said only referred to schoolchildren. 

Thank you Scotu. I didn't realize we were so off topic. 
So yes, probably our posts will be deleted.


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