# Я так и думал.



## James Bates

In Kung Fu Panda 1, Po asks Shi Fu how he's going to turn him into the Dragon Warrior. Shi Fu replies, "я не знаю!"
Po replies, "я так и думал."

What does и mean? If he had said, "я так думал." it would have meant "That's what I thought." What is the purpose of и?


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## abracadabra!

"И" means "and", unsurprisingly.  Now let's think, what does "and" mean? It's a vehicle that adds one message to another, or one thought to another. The thought that this "и" adds in this case is that Po believed that Shi Fu did not know the answer (По думал, что Ши Фу не знает ответа). The thought to which this "и" adds something is that Shi Fu did not know the answer to Po's question (how does Shi Fu imagine he might teach someone to become a warrior). English does not allow such use of "and", it's more strict. But in Russian it's widespread, you'll find it in many sentences: "и" adding one idea to another without any formal structure based on clauses. The literal translation might be: "indeed, I believed you did not know the answer" (я так и думал).


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## rusita preciosa

*я так и думал* fits this context and is a fixed expression that generally means *that's what I thought* or even *that's exactly what I thought* (depending on the intonation and context).
*я так думал* would sound strange there. 

I suppose you can use *я так думал* in context similar to this: *я так думал раньше, а теперь я так не думаю* (that's what I thought before but now I don't think that).


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## abracadabra!

rusita preciosa said:


> I suppose you can use *я так думал* in context similar to this: *я так думал раньше, а теперь я так не думаю* (that's what I thought before but now I don't think that).


By the way, it seems that your answer fits very well with my analysis: if I took away "indeed" from it, then the sentence would mean exactly what "я так думал" would mean. I think that, with proper intonation and context, "я так думал" can be present there with no more words, and with the implication that "I don't think so anymore" (or, in other words, "I don't believe this anymore")...


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## gvozd

James Bates said:


> In Kung Fu Panda 1, Po asks Shi Fu how he's going to turn him into the Dragon Warrior. Shi Fu replies, "я не знаю!"
> Po replies, "я так и думал."
> 
> What does и mean? If he had said, "я так думал." it would have meant "That's what I thought." What is the purpose of и?


My English is getting rusty, but I think the exact meaning isn't "that's what I thought". It's "I thought so!" or "just as I thought!". Or are they the same? И in given context isn't a conjunction, it's a particle. It adds emotions, that's all.


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## Q-cumber

abracadabra! said:


> @(rusita preciosa): By the way, it seems that your answer fits very well with my analysis: if I took away "indeed" from it, then the sentence would mean exactly what "я так думал" would mean. I think that, with proper intonation and context, "я так думал" can be present there with no more words, and with the implication that "I don't think so anymore" = "I don't believe this anymore"...


But this meaning is not applicable if this expression is used with "и" inside.


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## rusita preciosa

For simplicity's sake, I'd translate the expressions the following way (as a general guidance, the particulars of course depend on the context):
*я так и думал - *that's what I thought / I thought so (to me they are similar)
*я так думал -* I used to think that


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## abracadabra!

Q-cumber said:


> But this meaning ["I used to think this"] is not applicable if this expression is used with "и" inside.


Indeed, that's the difference I was talking about, both in the Russian sentence and in my English analysis that corresponded to it.  (The question was what was the meaning of "и", so I tried to answer that question...) Rusita preciosa sums it all up for the Russian sentence.


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## Enquiring Mind

Another option: "I *thought* as much." (stress on "thought")


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## abracadabra!

James Bates said:


> What is the purpose of и?


So, to make the short answer: "и" is a word that connects _what he thought before_ to _what he learned now_. If the character said only the former, omitting the connection to the latter, then he'd imply that he thought something else than what he learned, and has now changed his opinion because of what he learned.


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## Rosett

"и" substitutes "тоже" in the OP sentence, shifting the stress onto "так". Forero Enquiring Mind got it right.


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## Sobakus

It's an emphasising particle here.


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## Q-cumber

Sobakus said:


> It's an emphasising particle here.


Thanks for the link. It helped me to understand that the "и" emphasizes the truth of the following verb indeed.
Так я тебе *и *поверил!
Ну ты *и *напился вчера!
Так я как раз эту книгу *и* читал.  и т.д.


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## abracadabra!

Q-cumber said:


> Thanks for the link. It helped me to understand that the "и" emphasizes the truth of the following verb indeed.
> Так я тебе *и *поверил!   -- I fail to see any truth that is emphasized (= considered to require attention).
> Так я как раз эту книгу *и* читал.  -- If there is any truth to emphasize, it does not belong to the verb.


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## Drink

Q-cumber said:


> Так я как раз эту книгу *и* читал.  и т.д.



In that example, it's the normal conjunction "and" as a component of the set expression "раз и ..."



abracadabra! said:


> Так я тебе *и *поверил! -- I fail to see any truth that is emphasized (= considered to require attention).



The truth is that the speaker really did believe the one spoken to.


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## abracadabra!

The expression means the speaker does not believe the other person. I. e. "the verb" conveys a falsehood... See, the problem is, in this resolution I see rather an intention to "deal away" with the question rather than to approach it. Indeed, sometimes the word is put before a verb, the verb conveys some truth, and the sentence brings special attention to the fact that what the verb conveys is a truth. Sometimes there is no such situation. Sometimes this situation is present, but "и" is not used. Well then? It's not a good laugh to sway among explanations. But sway we have with this approach. Say, Q Cumber's sentence may well be said without как раз: "я эту книгу и читал"... I actually don't see any reason to believe that this "и" is not the normal "and" in any of the cited examples, here or in the article.


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## Drink

abracadabra! said:


> The expression means the speaker does not believe the other person. I. e. "the verb" conveys a falsehood... See, the problem is, in this resolution I see rather an intention to "deal away" with the question rather than to approach it. Indeed, sometimes the word is put before a verb, the verb conveys some truth, and the sentence brings special attention to the fact that what the verb conveys is a truth. Sometimes there is no such situation. Sometimes this situation is present, but "и" is not used. Well then? It's not a good laugh to sway among explanations. But sway we have with this approach. Say, Q Cumber's sentence may well be said without как раз: "я эту книгу и читал"...



The verb is in the past tense and the point is that it was true in the past. "I really did believe you, even though now I do not."


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## abracadabra!

Drink said:


> The verb is in the past tense and the point is that it was true in the past tense. "I really did believe, even though now I do not."


"Так я тебе и поверю" means just the same. It's in the past tense just because it can't be in the present tense: perfective verbs have no present tense, as their present tense forms imply an action in the future... Rather, the explanation was, "imagine what would happen if I believed you, it'd be too funny a situation".


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## Q-cumber

Drink said:


> In that example, it's the normal conjunction "and" as a component of the set expression "раз и ..."
> .


I don't think so. "Как раз" means "именно" (exactly) here.  "Именно эту книгу я читал" (more neutral). "Именно эту книгу я *и* читал. ".


"Так я тебе и поверил! " is a fixed expression. It means 'I'm not falling for it '.


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## abracadabra!

See, you already stepped back from your initial explanation (the word requires attention to the truth of the following verb) on both examples.  (It seems.) That's what I mean by 'sway'. I don't mention the truth of the statement, though. Мне не хочется обсуждать правдивость этого объяснения, потому что его настоящая проблема, по-моему, только в том, что оно служит, чтобы "загасить" вопрос, а не ответить на него... (Не знаю, как по-английски: "загасить" -- вероятно, "quench"...)


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## Drink

Q-cumber said:


> I don't think so. "Как раз" means "именно" (exactly) here.  "Именно эту книгу я читал" (more neutral). "Именно эту книгу я *и* читал. ".



I realized there are two ways of reading that sentence with different intonations and meanings, one of them using the expression "как раз" and one "раз и ..."


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## Q-cumber

Drink said:


> I realized there are two ways of reading that sentence with different intonations and meanings, one of them using the expression "как раз" and one "раз и ..."


Frankly speaking, I don't follow you.  What do you mean by "раз и ..."?  I can only suggest something like "Это очень короткая книга: раз и прочитал!"  Or "Раз и я читал эту книгу, ты тем более должен её прочесть. ". But I don't see how different intonations can affect the meaning of the original sample sentence.
  Perhaps that is because it was me who made it up and I just can't look at it from a different angle.


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## Sobakus

I don't think there's a set expression «раз и» and I certainly don't see it in the example.

The phenomenon where you say that you believe something while actually you don't is called _irony_. Emphasis, as in this turn of phrase («так...и _глагол_ил») is a standard way to convey it (cf. English "of _course_ I believe you!", Russ. «_конечно_ верю!»).


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## abracadabra!

Well, as I said, my problem was not the truth of the statement (absent any tangible criterion, I can't find out the truth here), but its intention. Someone says: "the role of this word is such & such". Now, why does he say that? Speaking about people's attention or about names of phenomena does not solve any doubt, why did this word act and not another, why was this the effect and not something else. But solving such doubts is the real purpose of querying.


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## Sobakus

I wish I understood what you're trying to say, but I don't. It's postulated that the emphatic particle _и_ serves to underline the truth of the following verb: "I really did do exactly that; that's _exactly_ what he did; but I _am_ that person". This is demonstrated using examples and native speakers agree that the examples do demonstrate it successfully.

In Ushakov's words:
_10. В знач. присоединительно-заключительной частицы перед глаголом обозначает соответствие случившегося тому, что ожидалось, что изложено выше. Так оно и случилось. Он и вышел (как советовали или как сам решил)._

I don't see what's missing.


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## abracadabra!

Sobakus said:


> Native speakers agree with this description.


If you mean me, then I don't. But I agree with Ushakov's description completely. In fact, Ushakov said exactly what I did. You didn't understand what I was seeking to say, because I answered to a description that I didn't understand. I just didn't get what was its point, why it was called a description at all.


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## Sobakus

To me the description on the English wiktionary is perfectly comprehensible and is just another, more concise way to say what Ushakov said. Maybe this article can help: Logical truth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Q-cumber

By the way, I think that Po meant something like "That's what I was afraid of".  "Так я и думал" ("Я так и думал") is often used as an exclamation expression that conveys some disappointment. We say this when our negative expectations come true ("Этого я и боялся!").

*Ослик Иа*: Жалкое зрелище… Душераздирающее зрелище… Кошмар! Ну вот, я так и думал.

- По-моему, у нас закончился бензин.
-Я так и думал (знал)! Я же говорил, что надо было заехать на заправку ещё в городе.  

-Я потеряла ключ от машины.
-Так я и думал, что этим закончится!  Зачем ты взяла его на пляж?


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