# City renamed



## Etcetera

Hi all.
Today I've received my new Russian passport, and I'm deep in thoughts. 
My birth certificate says I was born in Leningrad - that was St. Petersburg's name in 1922-1991. But I've always hated this name, so in 2001, when I applied for my first passport, I asked if I could have 'St. Petersburg' in my passport, not 'Leningrad'. I was allowed to do that, but when I came to apply for a new passport this Juny, I was told that there should be no difference between what was written in my birth certificate and what would be written in my passport. OK, I just had no choice, so today I received this new passport which says I was born in Leningrad. 
When a Polish friend of mine heard about that, she was rather surprised and asked if they should use the contemporary name of the city, not the one that used to be. She also added that in Poland, someone born in Wroclaw before the war would have it listed as Wroclaw and not Breslau. That sounds really reasonable. What's the point of using old names, when there are people who no longer remember that there was time when some cities had other names?.. I wonder if everyone in Western Europe still remember that only 14 years ago my native city was called Leningrad!
So, how it is in your country? If a city changes its name for whatever reason, do people who were born there before the renaming still have the old name of the city in their passports and other documents, or do they use the new name?


----------



## maxiogee

No cities or towns in Ireland have been renamed since about 1922. Then the names of Kingstown and Queenstown were renamed Dun Laoghaire and Cobh, respectively. Kingstown had only been given _that_ name in 1821 because of a visit by the King of England.
As far as I know no official documents would have been changed, but any new laws, regulations and official documents would have had only the new names.


----------



## Fernando

In Spain many towns have been renamed since 1978 to take the name in the regional language of the autonomous community in wich are placed.

As far as I know, the new documents are issued with the new name, regardless the opinion of the applicant.


----------



## Samaruc

Fernando said:
			
		

> In Spain many towns have been renamed since 1978 to take the name in the regional language of the autonomous community in wich are placed.
> 
> As far as I know, the new documents are issued with the new name, regardless the opinion of the applicant.



Well, rather than being renamed, these cities have simply recovered the name they had before they were officially renamed with Castilian names (in several cases it was just an orthographic change and in other cases their names were translated or changed so that they seemed more Castilian). 

I think it is important to know that, although the official names were compulsorily in Castilian, the people kept using the original names. And now these original names have been officially recovered. Just this.

You can find a lot here in Valencia. Some examples: Alacant (Alicante), Massarrojos (Masarrochos), Xàbia (Jávea), Castelló de la Ribera (Villanueva de Castellón), Benetússer (Benetúser), la Xara (La Jara), Alzira (Alcira), Xixona (Jijona), Ontinyent (Onteniente), Canet d'en Berenguer (Canet de Emberenguer), Vila-Real (Villarrreal), Alberic (Alberique), la Torre de les Maçanes (Torremanzanas), Alcoi (Alcoy), l'Alfàs del Pi (Alfaz del Pino), Atzeneta d'Albaida (Adzaneta de Albaida), Llutxent (Luchente), Elx (Elche), Alcossebre (Alcocéber), Carcaixent (Carcagente)... and many, many others...

In several cases (especially in big cities) both names are official: Alacant/Alicante, Castelló/Castellón...

As for Etcetera's question, the new official documents have, logically, the new official names (in case they have been recovered) instead of the Castilian ones (unless they are still official or co-official), but if anybody has an older document having the Castilian name, there is absolutely no problem with it, even in cases in which the Castilian name is unofficial now.


----------



## Fernando

Ehem... let us say that in many cases they recovered the original one (the Spanish term was "invented" or only used by Spanish-speakers outside the region involved), in other they it was dropped the Spanish name used more or less in equal terms and in others the Spanish one was arbitrarily removed (A/La Coruña is a good example of the latter).


----------



## emma42

My city, Nottingham, was originally named "Snottingham". "Snot" is the nasty stuff that comes out of your nose.


----------



## Tatzingo

emma42 said:
			
		

> My city, Nottingham, was originally named "Snottingham". "Snot" is the nasty stuff that comes out of your nose.



Emma, 

I don't mean to be funny but, are you serious???

Tatz.


----------



## emma42

Er, yes. Have I got a reputation around here? Look at www.nottshistory.org.uk. Ha!

It was founded by a Saxon called Snot in the 7th century.


----------



## Pivra

I like to get Leningrad and Volgograd and Stalingrad confused but I can remember St.Petersburg very well.


----------



## ireney

Well, we hadn't had such changes since mid 19th century so I can't say what was the norm here.

The only reason for this post really is to note that St. Petersburgh is also a city that has just taken its original name once again  (St.P --> Leningrad --> St. P)


----------



## Pivra

In Thailand, we never call our capital city Bangkok. We call it Krungthep Mahanakorn. Bangkok sounds really ugly, and I laugh all the time (tehe, you said Bangcock lol HAHA).


----------



## panjabigator

After India got its Independence, several cities got their original names back.  Calcatta is now known as KolKatta (a round o sound).  Madras is now known as Chennai.  Trivandrum is now trivanathapuram.  Bombay is now mumbai (but both are used).  Delhi is now Dilli (but I think thats more of a pronounciation issue...it would be incorrect to write New Dilli in English).  
Some states were split and given new names. Bombay (the state) was divided into Maharashtra and Gujarat.  Hyderabad (the princely state) was renamed Andhra Pradesh and was divided linguistically between the Kannada, Marathi, and Telegu speakers.  Mysore was renamed Karnataka.  Madras was renamed Chennai.  Assan was split into Assam, Arunachal Pradesh, and numerous other smaller tribal states.  Utar Pradesh was split into Utar Pradesh and Utaranchal.  Bihar was split into Bihar and Jharkand.  Punjab was split (after partition) into Punjab, Haryana, and Himachal Pradesh.  Thats all I can think of.


----------



## Pivra

panjabigator said:
			
		

> After India got its Independence, several cities got their original names back. Calcatta is now known as KolKatta (a round o sound). Madras is now known as Chennai. Trivandrum is now trivanathapuram. Bombay is now mumbai (but both are used). Delhi is now Dilli (but I think thats more of a pronounciation issue...it would be incorrect to write New Dilli in English).
> Some states were split and given new names. Bombay (the state) was divided into Maharashtra and Gujarat. Hyderabad (the princely state) was renamed Andhra Pradesh and was divided linguistically between the Kannada, Marathi, and Telegu speakers. Mysore was renamed Karnataka. Madras was renamed Chennai. Assan was split into Assam, Arunachal Pradesh, and numerous other smaller tribal states. Utar Pradesh was split into Utar Pradesh and Utaranchal. Bihar was split into Bihar and Jharkand. Punjab was split (after partition) into Punjab, Haryana, and Himachal Pradesh. Thats all I can think of.


 
 So, is the Lahore side of Panjab still called Panjab?


----------



## Mariaguadalupe

The city I grew up in has had 4 official names.  First established by franciscan monks back in 1774, we received our current name back in 1851.


----------



## danielfranco

Here in Dallas there's been no change in the last twenty years.


----------



## florencegale1820

danielfranco said:
			
		

> Here in Dallas there's been no change in the last twenty years.


a friend of mine live in dallas and told me about that too.


----------



## robbie_SWE

Changing city names here in Sweden is very uncommon, but has happened before. Nowadays only ortographical changes have taken place. 

During the 1970's, my city changed it's spelling. 

During the Middle Ages, my city was called "*Haelsinborch*" (maybe a bit off topic, but an important thing for my city   ) It was renamed "*Hälsingborg*" during the 19th-20th century, until the 1970's when it changed to "*Helsingborg*". 

And a city a bit farther away from my city was also renamed during the 1970's. From "*Engelholm*" to "*Ängelholm*". 

Hope this cheered you up a bit Etcetera  !


----------



## natasha2000

emma42 said:
			
		

> Er, yes. Have I got a reputation around here? Look at www.nottshistory.org.uk. Ha!
> 
> It was founded by a Saxon called Snot in the 7th century.


 
But, but... Emma!  Then the mean sheriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood story was in fact the sheriff of Snot(ingham?)???

In Serbia and Montenegro, as well as in Bosnia, there were several cities that had the name of Tito, like Titograd, the capital of Montenegro. After Tito died, they recovered their old names, so Titograd is called now as it was called always - Podgorica (read: Podgoritza). All new documents have the new name of the city. I also think that no choice can be made by an applicant.


----------



## natasha2000

panjabigator said:
			
		

> After India got its Independence, several cities got their original names back. Calcatta is now known as KolKatta (a round o sound). Madras is now known as Chennai. Trivandrum is now trivanathapuram. Bombay is now mumbai (but both are used). Delhi is now Dilli (but I think thats more of a pronounciation issue...it would be incorrect to write New Dilli in English).
> Some states were split and given new names. Bombay (the state) was divided into Maharashtra and Gujarat. Hyderabad (the princely state) was renamed Andhra Pradesh and was divided linguistically between the Kannada, Marathi, and Telegu speakers. Mysore was renamed Karnataka. Madras was renamed Chennai. Assan was split into Assam, Arunachal Pradesh, and numerous other smaller tribal states. Utar Pradesh was split into Utar Pradesh and Utaranchal. Bihar was split into Bihar and Jharkand. Punjab was split (after partition) into Punjab, Haryana, and Himachal Pradesh. Thats all I can think of.


 
And when the city of Bombay changed the name to Mumbai?
I had pretty big trouble finding the flight to Bombay when my boss had to go there...


----------



## Brioche

Etcetera said:
			
		

> Hi all.
> Today I've received my new Russian passport, and I'm deep in thoughts.
> My birth certificate says I was born in Leningrad - that was St. Petersburg's name in 1922-1991. But I've always hated this name, so in 2001, when I applied for my first passport, I asked if I could have 'St. Petersburg' in my passport, not 'Leningrad'. I was allowed to do that, but when I came to apply for a new passport this Juny, I was told that there should be no difference between what was written in my birth certificate and what would be written in my passport. OK, I just had no choice, so today I received this new passport which says I was born in Leningrad.
> When a Polish friend of mine heard about that, she was rather surprised and asked if they should use the contemporary name of the city, not the one that used to be. She also added that in Poland, someone born in Wroclaw before the war would have it listed as Wroclaw and not Breslau.


 
There would be very few people living in Wrocław to-day who were born there before 1945! There was a very thorough ethnic cleansing in that part of the world.

I'm pretty sure that Germans from Danzig, Stettin, Königsberg, Memel or Tilsit would never say that they had been born in Gdańsk, Szczecin, Kaliningrad, Klaipeda or Sovetsk.

There are quite a few Greeks living in Australia who were born in Turkey. They always give their place of birth as _Asia Minor_, and naturally the Greek name of the city is used - Smyrna, for example, not Izmir.


----------



## ElaineG

New York was of course once New Amsterdam, but I think it's definitely long enough ago that it doesn't arouse any feelings anymore.   We still have Amsterdam Avenue and a few other tributes scattered here and there.

Although now that the Dutch have legalized gay marriage, soft drugs, the right to die, prostitution etc. etc., I wouldn't be surprised if I could gin (hee!) up enthusiasm for a Dutch reversionist movement in liberal New York circles.


----------



## panjabigator

The Pakistani side of Panjab may have changed a couple of its names.  I thing the city Lyllapur may have a different name...not too sure.  Pakistani Panjab has the city Lahore, and the state is still called Panjab.


----------



## cirrus

The communists renamed Chemnitz Karl Marx Stadt in the GDR, but when both Germanies reunited, the city reverted to its old name.  There must be any amount of towns across Africa that have changed name on independence: Harare/Salisbury, Lourenco Marques/Maputo come to mind.


----------



## Etcetera

> In Serbia and Montenegro, as well as in Bosnia, there were several cities that had the name of Tito, like Titograd, the capital of Montenegro. After Tito died, they recovered their old names, so Titograd is called now as it was called always - Podgorica (read: Podgoritza). All new documents have the new name of the city. I also think that no choice can be made by an applicant.


The situation with old/new names of cities seems to me odd because I just can't understand why on earth one should use the old name of a city if it has another name for a pretty long time already? 
I've never been fornd of communists and of the years of their rule, so I was just glad when St. Petersburg got its historical name (yes, I still remember this day in 1992, although I was only 6 then). I was told that the only reason why I should have 'Leningrad' in my passport is that it is what my birth certificate says, but there's obviously would be no confusion if I had 'St. Petersburg' in my passport, and there may arise problems if I go abroad - as I've said already, not all people still keep in their mind the former name of my native city...

Anyway, it was very interesting to read about your cities. 'Snottingham' sounds especially nice!


----------



## emma42

THank you, etcetera. I am surprised that people from Leicester and Derby (nearest cities) do not call us Snottingham more often! You know - local rivalries. That green smiley man looks exactly like me, by the way.


----------



## castellano

In Spain, as was said before, there's been a tacky trend to re-name some cities and towns.
Indeed, in some way, I believe that this trend is reasonable as far as those same names have to be recongnised in the local language (Ourense (Orense), Girona (Gerona) or Gasteiz (Vitoria).

However, I think it's a big irresposibility to try to erase the Castilian names, specially when those names are said on TV, in a Castilian-speaking channel.

Journalists in Madrid have no linguistic consciousness and try to be _politically correct_, which makes them sound ridiculous to me (and to any person with linguistic conciousness).

I would ask them to say ORENSE, LA CORUÑA, GERONA or LÉRIDA, because those names *must *be used when speaking Castilian. Those are the names in Castilian that have to be used when speaking Castilian.

What happens in Spain does not happen anywhere else...."Espain es asín".

Regards


----------



## maxiogee

castellano said:
			
		

> I would ask them to say ORENSE, LA CORUÑA, GERONA or LÉRIDA, because those names *must *be used when speaking Castilian. Those are the names in Castilian that have to be used when speaking Castilian.



What names do Catalans use when speaking of Rome, Paris, Dublin, London, Bombay, Peking?


----------



## panjabigator

castellano said:
			
		

> In Spain, as was said before, there's been a tacky trend to re-name some cities and towns.
> Indeed, in some way, I believe that this trend is reasonable as far as those same names have to be recongnised in the local language (Ourense (Orense), Girona (Gerona) or Gasteiz (Vitoria).
> 
> However, I think it's a big irresposibility to try to erase the Castilian names, specially when those names are said on TV, in a Castilian-speaking channel.
> 
> Journalists in Madrid have no linguistic consciousness and try to be _politically correct_, which makes them sound ridiculous to me (and to any person with linguistic conciousness).
> 
> I would ask them to say ORENSE, LA CORUÑA, GERONA or LÉRIDA, because those names *must *be used when speaking Castilian. Those are the names in Castilian that have to be used when speaking Castilian.
> 
> What happens in Spain does not happen anywhere else...."Espain es asín".
> 
> Regards



I agree with you...it would sound weird if I were speaking in English and said Londres instead of London.  Things should be said properly according to the language.


----------



## Outsider

No cities or towns in Portugal have been renamed in a very long time -- centuries. Some villages may have changed name more recently (early 20th century, perhaps?), but I don't about it.
But to me it seems kind of charming to have a different name for your city in your birth certificate. It shows you've lived through some history.


----------



## macta123

In Kerala, India  many cities have been renamed in recent years 
like Cochin became Kochi
     Calicut became Kozhikode
     Trichur becam Trisshur etc.       
Other name changes of Indian cities which has happen
Bombay (Mumbai)
Madras (Chennai)
Calcutta (Kolkata)

But specially of cities like Bombay and Madras people like calling by as such. Mumbai and Chennai (ie. the new names) is for the government/official purposes and for speaking amongst the local language speaking population. For outsiders the old and more popular names like Bombay and Madras in the above case is more common and frequently used.


----------



## Pivra

macta123 said:
			
		

> In Kerala, India many cities have been renamed in recent years
> like Cochin became Kochi
> Calicut became Kozhikode
> Trichur becam Trisshur etc.
> Other name changes of Indian cities which has happen
> Bombay (Mumbai)
> Madras (Chennai)
> Calcutta (Kolkata)
> 
> But specially of cities like Bombay and Madras people like calling by as such. Mumbai and Chennai (ie. the new names) is for the government/official purposes and for speaking amongst the local language speaking population. For outsiders the old and more popular names like Bombay and Madras in the above case is more common and frequently used.


 
 Why change Madras's name? This name isnt given by the English, its an old name of the city. (in Mahabharata)


----------



## Brioche

Pivra said:
			
		

> Why change Madras's name? This name isnt given by the English, its an old name of the city. (in Mahabharata)


 
Wikipedia says that it was changed because Madras was peceived to be of Portugese origin.
But Wikipedia says that Madras may actually be of Tamil origin, and Chennai is possibly not!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madras


----------



## Outsider

"Madre de Sois"?! That sounds weird! The Portuguese name for Madras is Madrasta.


----------



## panjabigator

that sounds like step mother hehe


----------



## Outsider

Yes, the common noun _madrasta_ does mean stepmother. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the toponym Madrasta were unrelated to it.


----------



## aragorn

Australia is much too young for name changes to towns or cities but we have renamed some cultural icons such as replacing the petty 'Ayer's Rock' with the traditional 'Uluru' and this has now become a shibboleth revealing much about the culture of the speaker

aragorn
europeans think that one hundred kilometres is a long way
australians think that one hundred years is a long time


----------



## Fernando

maxiogee said:
			
		

> What names do Catalans use when speaking of Rome, Paris, Dublin, London, Bombay, Peking?



Most Catalans use the "traditional" name in Catalan or Spanish.

Public (autonomous) TV goes one step beyond and has given "Catalan" names to most cities. I do not know Catalan enough to know whether these names are or not "traditional". At least in Galician I can swear you that "Nova Yorque" was not very usual (but used by TVG).

I am attaching a link for the weather information. You can check many city names are changed 
http://www.tv3.cat/eltemps/sel/europa.html
Dublin > Dublín (Cat = Sp)
Paris > París (Cat = Sp)
London > Londres (Cat = Sp)
Roma (It = Cat = Sp)
Bombay/Mumbai > Bombay (Sp) > Bombai (Cat)

and the best:

México DF (Sp) > Mèxic DF (Cat)

For rest of Spain they (public media) use the terms in Catalan or Galician. As an example, Zaragoza becomes Saragossa and Andalucía becomes Andalusia.


----------



## Brioche

aragorn said:
			
		

> Australia is much too young for name changes to towns or cities but we have renamed some cultural icons such as replacing the petty 'Ayer's Rock' with the traditional 'Uluru' and this has now become a shibboleth revealing much about the culture of the speaker


 
Actually, there was wholesale changing of names in Australia during the First World War. In South Australia, 69 place names were changed.

German names were changed, sometimes to a name associated with the war, and sometimes to an Aboriginal name. A few names were later restored.

Kaiserstuhl was changed to Mt Kitchener. (General's name)
Blumberg became Birdwood (General's name)
Grunthal became Verdun. (WW1 Battlefield)
Lobethal was changed to Tweedvale - and back to Lobethal.
Langdorf became Kaldukee.

Langmeil was changed to Bilyara - and back to Langmeil.
The original German Langmeil is now in Poland, and is called Okunin.

Klemzig became Gaza (after WW1 battles in Palestine), and went back to Klemzig.
The original Klemzig is now in Poland, and is called Klępsk


----------



## Hakro

Brioche said:
			
		

> Actually, there was wholesale changing of names in Australia during the First World War. In South Australia, 69 place names were changed.
> 
> German names were changed, sometimes to a name associated with the war, and sometimes to an Aboriginal name. A few names were later restored.
> 
> Kaiserstuhl was changed to Mt Kitchener. (General's name)
> Blumberg became Birdwood (General's name)
> Grunthal became Verdun. (WW1 Battlefield)
> Lobethal was changed to Tweedvale - and back to Lobethal.
> Langdorf became Kaldukee.
> 
> Langmeil was changed to Bilyara - and back to Langmeil.
> The original German Langmeil is now in Poland, and is called Okunin.
> 
> Klemzig became Gaza (after WW1 battles in Palestine), and went back to Klemzig.
> The original Klemzig is now in Poland, and is called Klępsk


Thanks, Brioche, this is really a new information!
I always thought that (nearly) all the changes of city names happened only in the communist block but now I see that there are other countries, too, that have changed some names according to political situations. The German names must be destroyed!
We Finns have now had some problems recognizing the places in Karelia - after having conquered the south-eastern part of Finland in WW2 the Russians gave Russian names to most of the Karelian places and villages.
On the other hand, the city of Viborg has kept its Swedish name under the Russian power.
A very close friend of mine was born in Viborg in May 1944, a short time before the evacuation. That time Viborg still was a part of Finland, but in his papers his place of birth is: abroad.
Funny, isn't it?


----------



## sound shift

The *Turkish Republic *has renamed many places. Most Kurdish toponyms have been replaced with Turkish ones (e.g. Dersim>Tunceli). Three big cities in the South were given honorific prefixes after they broke a French siege in the 1920s: Urfa became Sanliurfa ("Glorious Urfa"), Antep became Gaziantep ("Warrior Antep") and Maras became Kahramanmaras ("Hero Maras"), although people often use the short forms in speech. There used to be a lot of non-Turkish place names in the Istanbul area but these have been replaced by Turkish names.


----------



## se16teddy

I expect this question is rather naive, but I think it is part of the sense of this thread.  How do officials change a city's name? If Parliament passed a law that from tomorrow a cat shall be called a tack, surely nothing would change in people's speech habits? Why is it different for a city?


----------



## maxiogee

Windscale!


----------



## vince

Southwestern Ontario was the heart of a thriving community of German settlers, many of them Mennonites. There are many towns within a 30km radius of here with names like New Hamburg, Baden, Mannheim, Breslau, Heidelberg, and largest of them all, Berlin, Ontario.

But during WWI, Berlin, Ontario was renamed to Kitchener, ON as a sign of patriotism toward Britain. It is now a city of 200,000 and the center of a region of 450,000 people.


----------



## Etcetera

se16teddy said:
			
		

> I expect this question is rather naive, but I think it is part of the sense of this thread.  How do officials change a city's name? If Parliament passed a law that from tomorrow a cat shall be called a tack, surely nothing would change in people's speech habits? Why is it different for a city?


In St. Petersburg in 1991, there was issued a law which re-established the city's historical name. It took a long time for the new (old, in fact ) name to replace the former 'Leningrad' elsewhere, especially on official forms which were printed in great numbers before 1991.
As for people's speech habits - well, actually, no one would change a city's name just for nothing, would they?  You should remember that it was shortly after the collaspe of the Soviet union, when people, tired of the Communist reign, were more then eager to get rid of all that could remind them of the Soviet times. 
An interesting fact. Both St. Petersburg and Moscow undergrounds used to bear the name of Lenin. I don't know if they still bear this name, but the fact is that you still can see the words 'Metropoliten imeni V.I.Lenina' on the facades of all the Moscow metro stations which were built before 1991, whereas in St. Petersburg those letters were removed on most (or all) metro stations in the beginning of the 1990s.


----------



## panjabigator

Do the older generations ever call the city Leningrad?  And back before the name changed back, did people refer to it as St. Petersburg?


----------



## Etcetera

Those who were born before 1980, refer to the city as Leningrad rather often. So does my Mum, for example. 
As for your second question - well, I just don't know! I'm too young to remember that. 
But the Petersburger's always been remembering all the names of the city.


----------



## panjabigator

When the city was called Leningrad, was there any penalty of calling it the other name?  I think in Catalan countries of Spain, all the Catalan names were changed to Castillian equivalents and they were the only correct versions...the other names where not to be spoken.


----------



## Etcetera

I don't know for sure... Probably not, but all could be in the Soviet union.
I'll ask some of my older friends, and tell you!


----------



## Dzanta

After WWII weren`t penalty, that about earlier times we don`t know. At that time people in Estonia said more `Piter` than St-Petersburg.

In Baltic countries towns were also renamed, but now more use new (actually, old) names, Kuressaare instead of Kingisepp, etc. But some people use old names then speak about past, eg. Rewal about medieval Tallinn, Derpt (XVII cent.) or Juriev (XIX cent.) about Tartu.


----------



## Etcetera

Panjabigator, my friend say that her father, who was a reporter in a Moscow newspaper, referred to Leningrad, as the city was called then, as 'Piter' in his articles, and it was absolutely OK.
Another friend told me that she knew a woman whose family always called the city 'Piter'. And they got no penalty for that.
I'll tell you if I'll have more replies.


----------



## Brioche

vince said:
			
		

> But during WWI, Berlin, Ontario was renamed to Kitchener, ON as a sign of patriotism toward Britain. It is now a city of 200,000 and the center of a region of 450,000 people.


 
In South Australia_ Berliner Buns_ were renamed _Kitchener Buns_ in during WW1.


----------



## panjabigator

Thank you etcetera!  I appreciate your research !


----------



## karuna

Etcetera, I wonder why you didn't rename the city back to Petrograd? After all in Latvian it is very hard to pronounce the official name _Sa*nktp*ēterburga. _Four consonants in a row are too much. For this reason in Latvia many still prefer to call it Ļeņingrada. The short form _Pītera _is not very popular either. Maybe, because most cities are feminine in Latvian.

BTW, what do you write when you have to fill your country of birth in forms? USSR or simply Russia?


----------



## panjabigator

What do you write Karuna?


----------



## Etcetera

Panjabigator, one my wonderful friends remembered also the old anthem of the city, which contains such a line: _"Peterburg, Petrograd, Leningrad". _It can be a proof that calling the city in the way one liked was OK. 

Karuna, your question is an unexpected one! But in fact, I wonder if anyone could consider renaming the city Petrograd. Sankt-Peterburg is the name given to our city by its foundator Peter the Great, who's still the most celebrated Russian emperor among Petersburgers. 
Besides, from the name _Petrograd _one could possibly assume that the city was named after Peter the Great himself. But it isn't so! He gave this name to the city after Apostle Peter, his patron saint. That's why the city's called not just Peterburg, but *Sankt-Peterburg*.



> BTW, what do you write when you have to fill your country of birth in forms? USSR or simply Russia?


Simply Russia. In Soviet time, people normally wrote in all forms the name of the pepublic they were born in.


----------



## karuna

Etcetera said:
			
		

> Karuna, your question is an unexpected one! But in fact, I wonder if anyone could consider renaming the city Petrograd. Sankt-Peterburg is the name given to our city by its foundator Peter the Great, who's still the most celebrated Russian emperor among Petersburgers.



During the time of Peter the Great the elite prefered to speak more in French or German than Russian, that they even named the city by German name. But I guess that the mood had become more patriotic by 1914 when they renamed it to Petrograd. It is interesting to note that again most people prefer foreign names to Russian ones.


----------



## karuna

panjabigator said:
			
		

> What do you write Karuna?



I don't really remember but I think I wrote Latvia in my last visa application. But there have been cases when the EU bureaucrats required to write the USSR because the birth certificate was issued by this country.


----------



## Etcetera

karuna said:
			
		

> During the time of Peter the Great the elite prefered to speak more in French or German than Russian, that they even named the city by German name. But I guess that the mood had become more patriotic by 1914 when they renamed it to Petrograd. It is interesting to note that again most people prefer foreign names to Russian ones.


I am sure that in fact very few people feel the name 'St. Petersburg' to be so foreign. We love this name, and we want no other name for our city.


----------



## karuna

I have been to St. Petersburg only once. I don't remember if it was renamed or not at that time but around that date. It looked completely western, very different from the rest of Russia. Very beautiful and unique. One can say that the linguistic choice appropriately reflects its culture.


----------



## Etcetera

Thank you Karuna!  So pleasant to hear warm word about your beloved city.


> One can say that the linguistic choice appropriately reflects its culture.


That's it!


----------



## se16teddy

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Windscale!


Windscale / Sellafield isn't a city. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield


----------



## cirrus

se16teddy said:
			
		

> Windscale / Sellafield isn't a city.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sellafield



But you can bet your bottom dollar that the minute the next thing goes wrong there the people running it will want to change the name to something bland and ideally attractive - West Lake District or some such.  As they say round here (deepest East End) you can't polish a turd.


----------



## maxiogee

se16teddy said:
			
		

> Windscale / Sellafield isn't a city.



I wasn't calling it a city, I was calling it a "cat".


			
				se16teddy said:
			
		

> I expect this question is rather naive, but I think it is part of the sense of this thread.  How do officials change a city's name? If Parliament passed a law that from tomorrow a cat shall be called a tack, surely nothing would change in people's speech habits? Why is it different for a city?



The new name caught on immediately.
There must be Britons alive today who know exactly what the word "Sellafield" means but who would look blankly at you if you said "Windscale".


----------



## cirrus

se16teddy said:
			
		

> I expect this question is rather naive, but I think it is part of the sense of this thread.  How do officials change a city's name? If Parliament passed a law that from tomorrow a cat shall be called a tack, surely nothing would change in people's speech habits? Why is it different for a city?



Thinking about it there are parts of London that have been renamed in the last twenty years in the same postcode as your WR monicker. I still remember Surrey Docks being called Surrey Docks. When they built the awful shopping centre some bright spark called it Surrey Quays and all the buses started using that name. These days saying Surrey Docks marks you out as a dyed in the wool East Ender or South Londoner as people who have arrived since use the same name as the buses.


----------



## sound shift

Not to mention the free-lance renamings beloved of estate agents:

"Splendid 3-bed semi Blackheath fringes"

And when you visit the place you discover that "Blackheath fringes" means "Lewisham"


----------



## se16teddy

The mention of Windscale and the salty Irish Sea puts me in mind of a city whose name may have changed in the past, but which now seems rather to be breeding names in an effort to please everyone: 'Derry', 'Londonderry', 'Derry / Londonderry', 'Slash City', 'Stroke City', 'the City on the Foyle' ... I don't actually know what its official name is - maybe it is trying to avoid having one.


----------



## Bonjules

I dont know, Etc.,
You are young and your town is not some odd Germantown in Ontario or wherever where nobbody really cares....
Have you talked to a lot of people who lived through what happened to your city in WWII? 
Were your grandparents there and did they survive? Heroic and epic struggles with incredible suffering define places. This didn't happen to St. Petersburg. This happened to Leningrad. No matter how you feel about the Sowjet System, which i think was pretty horrible. But then, you know ,it was another matter. It was a struggle for bare survival.
I don't know how the people of Hiroshima would feel if the authorities would re-name them tomorrow. Or how the rest of the world would react. I think, if I had lived and fought through the Leningrad siege, maybe lost my family and someone would just decide to rename me, I' d be pretty upset.
Tell us what the old survivers say.


----------



## Etcetera

Sorry, Bonjules, but St. Petersburg is not a town. It's a city. And a pretty big one. 
Don't tell me about the Siege of Leningrad. I *know* and I *remember* about it. 
I don't see why the Siege could be an argument againsts re-naming the city in 1991. OK, nowadays a lot of people in Western countries can't remember that Leningrad and St. Petersburg are one and the same city. But when we returned our city its historical name, we didn't think about the Westerners. We thought about ourselves, citizens of St. Petersburg. The point is that we are, actually, well-aware of our history. The history of _St. Petersburg_ contains a lot of glorious moments. It was St. Petersburg, not Leningrad, whose foundation was the dawn of a new era in Russian history. It was St. Petersburg, not Leningrad, that was the capital of the Russian Empire. It was St. Petersburg, not Leningrad, where the Decembrists arose. Will that do?
And last but not least, please remember that *we never ask our elder relatives how was the Siege of Leningrad. *I do have a lot of relatives who were there, and I never dare to speak to them about it. They can talk about it, if they wish. But it happens very rarely. And I understand them.


----------



## Bonjules

Etcetera,
While I still feel it would be very intersting to hear from people who were closer to the events than either of us, I don't think I have a right to carry the argument any further.
To use 'town' and 'city' interchangeably/synonymously is perectly fine as long as you are not trying to express some disrespect by doing so.
I have the greatest admiration for your city, its inhabitants, its history and its architecture. I am very happy the latter has been restored so splendidly.
Greetings


----------



## Etcetera

Thank you for your understanding, Bonjules.


----------



## stephyjh

se16teddy said:
			
		

> The mention of Windscale and the salty Irish Sea puts me in mind of a city whose name may have changed in the past, but which now seems rather to be breeding names in an effort to please everyone: 'Derry', 'Londonderry', 'Derry / Londonderry', 'Slash City', 'Stroke City', 'the City on the Foyle' ... I don't actually know what its official name is - maybe it is trying to avoid having one.


 
The original name of the town, Derry, came from the word _darach,_ which as it was explained to me refers to an oak tree. Londonderry is an anglicization.


----------

