# 的 - 北京是一座美丽的城市



## bankei yotaku

does this reads:

(1) Bei-Jing is one+_measure_ beatiful city
(2) Bei-Jing is one+_measure_ _of-the_-beatiful cities

I ask this in order to clarify in my mind the nature and the proper use and meaning of "的" which is very peculiar and hard to catch for a newbie.


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## MèngDié

I would go for (1), but I have a hard time understanding why the use of 的 here would cause the type of confusion you were referring to in the first place. In my mind, its use here is very straight-forward and not peculiar at all. It is simply attached to *美丽 *and together they form an adjective. For example: 

你是一个勤奋的学生。  You are a hard-studying student. 
意大利是一个年轻的国家。 Italy is a young country. ( Didn't you just celebrate your 150th anniversary as a united country?)


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## bankei yotaku

I suspect the point here is that european languages are morphologically quite variable, and distinguish very clearly with quite subtle subdvision of scope between prepositions, articulate or not, pronominal or not, the meanings which are often compounded in other languages in one single form, and this to me, is one of the most important feature by which I can understand what I am being told; but this compounding often for the non-native speaker (or better for the neo-latin speakers whose language is most fragmented) results in an ambiguity that s/he is not able to disambiguate; and this of course, in learning the language as a second tongue in one's own native linguistic environment: I suspect also, that if I were to live some time in P.R.C. the Han's language would become quite more clearer to me.

Thus if I am told that in "美丽的" the particle "的" is compounded and not annexed I can tell this character is in such cases used as an _adjective_ marker so to say, rather than as a _genitive_ marker, which is a substantial difference for it does say that "_it_ is _this"_, and the other says "_it _is _of-that_": the stoics would tell: ibi pōnĭmus, hic tollĭmus.


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## bankei yotaku

MèngDié said:


> 你是一个勤奋的学生。  You are a hard-studying student.
> 意大利是一个年轻的国家。 Italy is a young country. ( Didn't you just celebrate your 150th anniversary as a united country?)



谢谢! But, if I actually were, I could answer you in your language, and instead I'm forced to play english.... Only have some linguistics' expertise

and yes, Italy just is celebrating the whole year round, but some one could say that it is so young that practically speaking still it has not been given birth....


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## viajero_canjeado

的 also denotes possession, or in your words functions as a "genitive marker".

這是他的房子。
我不要吃你的蛋糕。

There have been several other threads on 的， perhaps you could take a look at some of them.

A little word of advice, don't get too caught up in attaching labels to Chinese grammatical features. Sometimes there's no real explanation that I can perceive except it simply _is_ that way. (But then again, I approach language pragmatically, instead of merely academically.) For example, is there really a reason for the 的 in "管他的“？ Another usage I started a thread on a long time ago but still don't really understand: 我會想你的; 你已經告訴他的嗎？

Ciao!


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## MèngDié

viajero_canjeado said:


> 的 also denotes possession, or in your words functions as a "genitive marker".
> 
> 這是他的房子。
> 我不要吃你的蛋糕。
> 
> There have been several other threads on 的， perhaps you could take a look at some of them.
> 
> A little word of advice, don't get too caught up in attaching labels to Chinese grammatical features. Sometimes there's no real explanation that I can perceive except it simply _is_ that way. (But then again, I approach language pragmatically, instead of merely academically.) For example, is there really a reason for the 的 in "管他的“？ Another usage I started a thread on a long time ago but still don't really understand: 我會想你的; 你已經告訴他的嗎？
> 
> Ciao!


 
Good examples Viajero, although I'm not sure if I would say 你已經告訴他的嗎？I would say 你已經告訴他了嗎？But maybe that's what they would say "台湾腔"?


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## viajero_canjeado

或許啦。。反正 這 是那個我提到的thread.

我的"告訴"例子不太好 。 再來一次：『我去告訴他的。』你會這樣說吧?


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## BODYholic

viajero_canjeado said:


> 再來一次：『我去告訴他的。』你會這樣說吧?



The sentence has a very strange 语气. The "的", in your example, is supposedly to ascertain your claim but your sentence has a very weak tone that does not accord with the particle. 可能"去"是这里的败笔吧!?

A common way of putting it is "没错！是我告訴他的。"


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## BODYholic

bankei yotaku said:


> does this reads:
> 
> (1) Bei-Jing is one+_measure_ beatiful city
> (2) Bei-Jing is one+_measure_ _of-the_-beatiful cities



I don't really understand your problem but does it help if I illustrate the sentence in the following way?

北京是一座 (美丽的) 城市.


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## xiaolijie

bankei yotaku said:


> Thus if I am told that in "美丽的" the particle "的" is compounded and not annexed I can tell this character is in such cases used as an _adjective_ marker so to say, rather than as a _genitive_ marker, which is a substantial difference for it does say that "_it_ is _this"_, and the other says "_it _is _of-that_": the stoics would tell: ibi pōnĭmus, hic tollĭmus.


To understand the function of "的" and how it's used, I'd advise to forget about whether it's an _adjective_ marker or a _genitive_ marker (it's not the same as Italian, after all!), but think of "的" simply as the _connector_ between the modifying word (美丽) and the modified one (城市). Also, to avoid getting yourself confused, ignore all other functions of 的 (such as 的 at the end of a sentence) while you're still learning this important function.


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## bankei yotaku

viajero_canjeado said:


> 的 also denotes possession, or in your words functions as a "genitive marker".
> 
> 這是他的房子。
> 我不要吃你的蛋糕。



I do see, and yet, the possessive is more clear as function of 的, and in Italic, as well as with other neo-latin languages, as far as I know, possessive and genitive are quite clearly distinguished: that is, I never use the genitive preposition _di _in a sentence as 這是他的房子 -> Questa è la sua casa, and not Questa è di-lui la casa, even though I may tell: Questa è la casa di-lui, even though it sounds quite odd to a native speaker. 

We may use the genitive as in 

Queste sono le foglie dell'albero -> 這是树的叶子。

And also as in 

Io non mangio (la) carne di maiale - > 我不吃猪的肉类。

Thus we have in Italic, _di+noun _for genitive, and possessive _pronouns _which denotes belonging, and this latter is yet a more direct relation, for example, that exists between 房子 -> house and 他 -> he, but don't between 肉类 -> meat, and 猪 -> pig: this latter is more of a specification on which kind of meat this is, rather than the determination of an ownership; still different is the case of the adjective for which we may say:

Io non mangio (la) carne suina -> 我不吃猪的肉类。 

in which yet _suina _denotes a wider meaning than _maiale_; for what I have understood yet, in the last sentence I could also omit 的. Is that true?


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## bankei yotaku

viajero_canjeado said:


> There have been several other threads on 的， perhaps you could take a look at some of them.



I will certainly go and take a look


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## MèngDié

bankei yotaku said:


> Io non mangio (la) carne suina -> 我不吃猪的肉类。
> 
> in which yet _suina _denotes a wider meaning than _maiale_; for what I have understood yet, in the last sentence I could also omit 的. Is that true?


 
It's not that you _could_ omit it, but that you _must. _It sounds very odd to say 我不吃猪的肉, or 这是树的叶。A native speaker would say 我不吃猪肉, or 这是树叶 (as opposed to 草叶，I guess).


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## bankei yotaku

xiaolijie said:


> To understand the function of "的" and how it's used, I'd advise to forget about whether it's an _adjective_ marker or a _genitive_ marker (it's not the same as Italian, after all!), but think of "的" simply as the _connector_ between the modifying word (美丽) and the modified one (城市). Also, to avoid getting yourself confused, ignore all other functions of 的 (such as 的 at the end of a sentence) while you're still learning this important function.



I do agree with you MèngDié, as well as Viajero regarding attaching labels, but here my problem is exactly that neo-latin languages do use an altogether different "strategy" if you allow me the term, to tell the same: in Italic there are no such elements as those I called "markers"; prepositions, of which _di _is most used, are elements which stand by themselves and do not mark another element but they address the speaker _to _another element, and their most peculiar use is with demonstrative pronouns and adverbs: their pattern is really characteristic, and their connotation really narrow. Tell me if I have understood something : 的 as _connector_ is placed both after an adjective modifying a noun as in:

Questa è una casa rossa -> 這是*一座*红(的)房子

and between a noun denoting the owner and the owned as in:

Questa è (la) casa di Fa Sun -> 這是发笋的房子

and thus in:

Bei-Jing è una meravigliosa città -> 北京是一座美丽(的)城市

and only when the modifier precedes the modified, and so not in:

Questa città, (davvero) meravigliosa -> 这 本城市(很)美丽

Many thank everyone: btw, these conversations teach me very much about Italic and English too!


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## bankei yotaku

MèngDié said:


> It's not that you _could_ omit it, but that you _must. _It sounds very odd to say 我不吃猪的肉, or 这是树的叶。A native speaker would say 我不吃猪肉, or 这是树叶 (as opposed to 草叶，I guess).




Is that because 树 implies 叶, and 猪 implies 肉? 

And then does  叶 implies both 树 and 草?

And so is 的 used (apart from its use at the end of the sentence) to mark the connection between two words when that is not already implied between the two?


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## MèngDié

bankei yotaku said:


> Tell me if I have understood something : 的 as _connector_ is placed both after an adjective modifying a noun as in:
> 
> Questa è una casa rossa -> 這是*一座*红(的)房子
> 
> and between a noun denoting the owner and the owned as in:
> 
> Questa è (la) casa di Fa Sun -> 這是发笋的房子
> 
> and thus in:
> 
> Bei-Jing è una meravigliosa città -> 北京是一座美丽的城市
> 
> and only when the modifier precedes the modified, and so not in:
> 
> Questa città (è) meravigliosa -> 这 本城市(很)美丽
> 
> Many thank everyone: btw, these conversations teach me very much about Italic and English too!


 
What you said above looks correct to me in general. However, since Chinese is my mother tongue, I probably know more grammar rules for the languages that I'm learning than for Chinese, so just a couple of observations:

1. In addition to the grammar, you also have to take into consideration the rythm and how it sounds when constructing Chinese sentences. For example, when the adjective is just one character, you wouldn't usually put 的 after it. However, when the adjective is formed with two or more characters, you would most likely use 的. Thus, we would say 这是*一*座红房子 (senza *的)*, and 这是*一*座红色*的*房子 (con *的*)。 The same rule of rythm applies in that you wouldn't usually say 这座城市美丽，but yes one would say 这座城市*很*美丽。

2. Interesting name 发笋, I challenge you to find one Chinese person who would actually have such a name. 笋, meaning bamboo shoots, is not usually a character Chinese parents would use to name their offspring, as far as I'm aware. Also 美丽的 is probably better translated simply as _bello_, _bella_. _Meravigliosa_ is perhaps better translated as 美妙的，奇妙的, etc., which is quite different from 美丽的. Finally, one would never use 本 to describe a 城市. It is better to use 座 or 个, etc.


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## bankei yotaku

MèngDié said:


> Good examples Viajero, although I'm not sure if I would say 你已經告訴他的嗎？I would say 你已經告訴他了嗎？But maybe that's what they would say "台湾腔"?



Viajero, I will search the thread you speak about, and yet, may I ask here, about this sentence:

你已經告訴*他的*嗎 -> (do) you already let *him* know?

 你已經告訴*他*了嗎 -> (_did_) you already let *him* know?


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## xiaolijie

bankei yotaku said:


> Viajero, I will search the thread you speak about, and yet, may I ask here, about this sentence:
> 
> 你已經告訴*他的*嗎 -> (do) you already let *him* know?
> 
> 你已經告訴*他*了嗎 -> (_did_) you already let *him* know?


I don't think you normally see "你已經告訴*他的*嗎" by native speakers, so that leaves "你已經告訴*他*了嗎" standing and you're right, it means "(_did/ have_) you already let *him* know? "




> Tell me if I have understood something : 的 as _connector_ is placed both after an adjective modifying a noun as in:
> 
> Questa è una casa rossa -> 這是*一座*红(的)房子
> 
> and between a noun denoting the owner and the owned as in:
> 
> Questa è (la) casa di Fa Sun -> 這是发笋的房子
> 
> and thus in:
> 
> Bei-Jing è una meravigliosa città -> 北京是一座美丽(的)城市
> 
> and only when the modifier precedes the modified, and so not in:
> 
> Questa città, (davvero) meravigliosa -> 这 本城市(很)美丽


On the whole, you've got it correctly, but need to bear in mind that 的 can also be omitted under some circumstances, and you need to learn this separately. Also when I say [Modifying + 的 + Modified], I'm referring to a noun phrase, and so it does NOT apply to other kinds of phrases such as [很+美丽] in your last example.


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