# Is English the messiest?



## Kelly B

After rereading a thread in which I earnestly explained to someone that sometimes "out of" means "in", I cannot imagine that another language could be a bigger and more confusing mess. Another thread asked how to translate "I wish I wasn't American" and I immediately thought how grateful I am to be a native speaker, to have had an early start on this nuanced, complex and confusing language.

But then I thought that I might just be suffering from a gross failure of imagination. So tell me, how messy/challenging is YOUR language of choice?


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## Phryne

I think all languages are "messy". When I was younger I thought all languages but mine were sometimes incoherent until I had to explain my own language to a non-native speaker. I swear I lost my patience before I reached an answer. 

It all comes down to the ways in which people learn a language. First language acquisition comes out naturally, unconsciously. All languages after that require that you try to learn rules consciously. So when you need to explain any rule in so-and-so language, you have the tools already. Conversely, you don't in your own language.

saludos


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## cuchuflete

Other than idiomatic expressions, Spanish is rather regular and logical compared with English.  So is Italian, except for the spelling!  Portuguese is a little more complicated, but it too is quite logical.

Phryne is, as always except in culinary matters, absolutely correct.  I cannot explain English, although I'm able to use it with some small success.


regards,
Cuchu

PD-some aspects of economics and politics are culinary


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## asm

I used to think like this until I had the experience Phyrne mentions in her post. There are some nuances in Spanish that complicate the easiness we use to think it has.
A former student used to complain about the endings in verbs, she said we should just keep the same ending always; if we think this is absurd in Spanish, it works in English. Even more, when I try to teach them ALGUNOS, NINGUNO, ETC, the frustration goes the same way Phryne said before. I loose my patiente and I curse those who made this difficult. 




			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Other than idiomatic expressions, Spanish is rather regular and logical compared with English. So is Italian, except for the spelling! Portuguese is a little more complicated, but it too is quite logical.
> 
> Phryne is, as always except in culinary matters, absolutely correct. I cannot explain English, although I'm able to use it with some small success.
> 
> 
> regards,
> Cuchu
> 
> PD-some aspects of economics and politics are culinary


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## cuchuflete

asm said:
			
		

> ... when I try to teach them ALGUNOS, NINGUNO, ETC, the frustration goes the same way Phryne said before. I loose my patiente and I curse those who made this difficult.




Es un problema de estudiantes y no del idioma
Algunos de ellos no escuchan bien al maestro.  Ninguno de ellos debe fastidiarle tanto....et cetera


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## Grecus

Kelly B said:
			
		

> So tell me, how messy/challenging is YOUR language of choice?


 
I live in Bologna, in the north of Italy. A few time ago a friend of mine came here from the England. He speaks a good Italian but he was disappointed because he couldn't understood this thing:
When you go to the baker's and buy (for exemple) a roll, the baker ask you "Altro?" (instead of "vuole qualcos'ALTRO?") wich mean "(do you want anything) ELSE?" and people in my town reply ALTRO (wich mean ELSE) so my friend tought that they want something _else_. In fact ALTRO is the contraction of NIENT'altro which mean (I _don't _want anything) ELSE...

I wonder I was clear... It's so messy...


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## VenusEnvy

In trying to explain English spelling and pronounciation and grammar rules, I can swear now that English makes no sense. It is the messiest, most confusing, contradictory language I know. And, I am so glad I am a native speaker. If I weren't, I'd be baffled!

Learning French and Spanish has made me realize this. The verbs are easy to conjugate, they follow actual patterns, every letter is pronounced so reading is easy (a part from French), etc.


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## Phryne

HI Venus!





			
				VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> In trying to explain English spelling and pronounciation and grammar rules, I can swear now that English makes no sense. It is the messiest, most confusing, contradictory language I know. And, I am so glad I am a native speaker. If I weren't, I'd be baffled!


English spelling is the worst! I agree on that! But in that case, Chinese ideography is actually worse.


> Learning French and Spanish has made me realize this. The verbs are easy to conjugate, they follow actual patterns, every letter is pronounced so reading is easy (a part from French), etc.


 Mmm, I would say that verbs in Spanish and French are a million times harder and messier than in English. Now I'm glad to be a native Spanish speaker!!!! 

saludos


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## zebedee

It's true that Spanish or French verb forms are more specific than English ones but that doesn't mean that English is less complicated...in fact I think it's quite the opposite! English is such a flexible language that it's confusing. 

Where else can you take an adjective and use it as a verb without even changing its form? 
eg: -"Wet paint".
-"Ok, I will." 

Where else is the past participle of a verb the same form as the imperative which is the same form as the infinitive which is the same as all present cases except the 3rd person singular?

eg. "come"

And what about phrasal verbs, eh?

In fact, English is one of the easiest languages to use/learn at a basic level because of this but for exactly the same reason it's also one of the most complex at a higher level of study.

zeb


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## ivanbcn

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Other than idiomatic expressions, Spanish is rather regular and logical compared with English. So is Italian, except for the spelling!


 
Italian is maybe one of the languages with the most regular spelling, you read what you see written, differently from English (this is messy); Italian can be messy as regards verbs, there are so many irregular verbs especially in the present tense.


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## Outsider

A messy feature of Spanish: the personal "a" and indirect objects.



			
				zebedee said:
			
		

> It's true that Spanish or French verb forms are more specific than English ones but that doesn't mean that English is less complicated...in fact I think it's quite the opposite! English is such a flexible language that it's confusing.
> 
> Where else can you take an adjective and use it as a verb without even changing its form?
> eg: -"Wet paint".
> -"Ok, I will."
> 
> Where else is the past participle of a verb the same form as the imperative which is the same form as the infinitive which is the same as all present cases except the 3rd person singular?


While most European languages do conjugate verbs, I understand that Southeast Asian languages often do not, just like English.
In some Native American languages of Brazil, the same word can be a verb, an adjective, or a noun, depending on the context.


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## cuchuflete

Outsider said:
			
		

> In some Native American languages of Brazil, the same word can be a verb, an adjective, or a noun, depending on the context.



Right!




> Adapted From: WordNet 2.0 Copyright 2003 by Princeton University.  All rights reserved.
> 
> *right* *A*_noun_
> *1 **right*
> _a turn to the right; "take a right at the corner"  _
> *B*_verb_
> *1 *correct, rectify, *right*
> _make right or correct; "Correct the mistakes"; "rectify the calculation"  _
> *2 **right*
> _regain an upright or proper position; "The capsized boat righted again"  _
> *C*_adjective_
> *1 *proper, *right*, suitable
> _appropriate for a condition or occasion; "everything in its proper place"; "the right man for the job"; "she is not suitable for the position" _
> *2 *correct, *right*
> *9 *right(a), right-hand(a)
> *D*_adverb_
> *1 *mighty, powerful, *right*
> _(Southern regional intensive) very; "the baby is mighty cute"; "he's mighty tired"; "it is powerful humid"; "that boy is powerful big now"; "they have a right nice place" _
> *2 **right*, flop
> _exactly; "he fell flop on his face"  _
> *3 **right*
> _immediately; "she called right after dinner"  _


Also an interjection.,
Right on!!


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## Outsider

However, in English that's an exceptional case (the only one?) In Tupi, it's the general rule:



> Em particular, uma mesma palavra variável pode possuir sentido tanto substantival, quanto adjetival e/ou verbal.
> 
> Ex: Bebé = o vôo (subst.)
> Bebé = voar (verb.)
> Bebé = ser voador, voante (adj.)
> 
> Página do Tupi Antigo


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## Wordsmyth

zebedee said:
			
		

> [...] Where else can you take an adjective and use it as a verb without even changing its form?
> eg: -"Wet paint".
> -"Ok, I will."  [...]
> 
> zeb


 Or even 'noun+verb' to 'verb+noun', as in the old favourite:

"Time flies" ... "I cannot, for they fly too fast"  

W


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## Wordsmyth

zebedee said:
			
		

> [...] Where else is the past participle of a verb the same form as the imperative which is the same form as the infinitive which is the same as all present cases *except the 3rd person singular*?
> 
> eg. "come" [...]


And what's more, zeb, even including the 3rd person singular in the subjunctive!!  

W


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## Phryne

Wordsmyth said:
			
		

> zebedee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ [...] Where else is the past participle of a verb the same form as the imperative which is the same form as the infinitive which is the same as all present cases *except the 3rd person singular*?_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> eg. "come" [...]_
> And what's more, zeb, even including the 3rd person singular in the subjunctive!!
> 
> W
Click to expand...


In my opinion that makes it so much easier, not messier...  

Not that I want to create a controversy here, but all of you who claim that English is messy, are native speakers!!!!  

saludos


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## Wordsmyth

Kelly B said:
			
		

> After rereading a thread in which I earnestly explained to someone that sometimes "out of" means "in", I cannot imagine that another language could be a bigger and more confusing mess. [...]


And not only in English, Kelly. Same thing in medical Latin.

Normal Latin: ex = out of
Medical Latin: ex aqua = in water

Never could understand that one  

W


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## cuchuflete

Outsider said:
			
		

> However, in English that's an exceptional case (the only one?) In Tupi, it's the general rule:



You are right--no pun intended.  I can think of a few others, but they are not common. Wrong comes to mind.


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## Wordsmyth

Phryne said:
			
		

> In my opinion that makes it so much easier, not messier...
> 
> Not that I want to create a controversy here, but all of you who claim that English is messy, are native speakers!!!! [...]


Now you come to mention it, Phryne, I agree. I've even said the same thing myself on occasions -- like when trying to get my head round the Spanish subjunctive!!  

So here we have this easy English subjunctive, where all six cases are identical, and the irony is that most 'natives' don't even know it exists!! (WR foreros excepted of course  )

W


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## Wordsmyth

Going back to Kelly's thread-starter example of 'opposing' prepositions, how about:

"30% off (the price of) CDs" : OK
"Special offer on CDs" : OK

Then we started to see that bizarre fusion:

"30% off on  CDs" !!  

Messy or what?

W


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## Wordsmyth

Kelly B said:
			
		

> [...]  So tell me, how messy/challenging is YOUR language of choice?


 We've had English, Spanish, Italian ... and Tupi (or not Tupi, that is the question...  ). 

So now I'll bring French into it -- at least 'arithmetic French'. Mes amis français don't find it at all messy, but it can be very confusing for 'foreigners' :

Suppose my phone bill is $30 and yours is $10. In English yours is a third of mine. In French you pay "trois fois moins" ("three times less") ... so:
"three times less" = $10
"two times less" = $15
"one time less" = ???  

Then there's the common use of "huit jours" (8 days) when talking broadly about a week, and "quinze jours" (15 days) for two weeks. So 2x8=15  ... but that's all the Ancient Romans' fault, and that's another story!

Before anyone shouts, yes of course French also has "une semaine" and "deux semaines".

W


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## blancalaw

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Es un problema de estudiantes y no del idioma
> Algunos de ellos no escuchan bien al maestro. Ninguno de ellos debe fastidiarle tanto....et cetera



Tienes razon, ningun lengua es "messy" solo se queja la gente al tener que aprenderlo.

But I do admit that some words are confusing in English, such as 
Burn up = Burn down  
Los dos significan quemar hasta que nada quede.


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## cuchuflete

> _No soy Dios, cometo herrores errores.  Por favor ayúdenme a mejorar mi inglés y español.  Gracias_


 así que...

Tienes razón, ninguna lengua/ningún idioma es 'messy'. Sólo se...


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## blancalaw

jejejej gracias.  ¿Qu*é* har*í*a sin ti?


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## Hakro

I'd analyse this question like this:

English language has two major problems:

1) Many words have too many different meanings.
According to some statistics the 500 most common English words have 15.000 different meanings. Without context they are impossible to understand. It's messy.
2) There are practically no rules for pronunciation.
Even an English-speaking person can't be sure of a word that he/she doesn't know in advance. It's really messy.

How come this "mess of a language" has become the most popular foreign language in the world? 

There are two main reasons:

1) The English grammar is so simple; We're used to say that English is no language, it's just words in a row.
2) The British have had colonies around the world and they are used to understand bad pronuncuation; so have the US people because of the immigrants from all over the world.

OK, English is one of the messiest languages in the world but it's also one of the easiest to understand (and to be understood). So I think it's useless to argue about the "messy English". *Anybody reading these pages is able to learn English*, I'm sure.


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## Hakro

Wordsmyth said:
			
		

> Suppose my phone bill is $30 and yours is $10. In English yours is a third of mine. In French you pay "trois fois moins" ("three times less") ... so:
> "three times less" = $10
> "two times less" = $15
> "one time less" = ???


 I think it's the same problem in every language (even in English) and it's only because common people can't think mathematically. We have had this arguing about "three times less" for as long as I can remember (and it's not a short time).


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## Brioche

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> In trying to explain English spelling and pronounciation and grammar rules, I can swear now that English makes no sense. It is the messiest, most confusing, contradictory language I know. And, I am so glad I am a native speaker. If I weren't, I'd be baffled!


 
If you think English spelling is bad, you should try Irish.


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## lampiao

I know this is a bit late, but here's an opinion


			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Portuguese is a little more complicated, but it too is quite logical


Actually I think portuguese is rather illogical.
For e.g., If you want to say "I didn't do anything" in pt you say "Não fiz nada", which is a double negation. 
Literally translated it'd be "I didn't do nothing"

But that is too much computer logic polluted thinking... I think cuchuflete didn't mean it in this sense


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## JazzByChas

I think I agree the most with VenusEnvy.  I am a native speaker of English, and it is one of the hardest languages to make sense of, particularly in its spellings.  I imagine that this is because it started out as a germanic language, but has "imported" words not only from Latin and Greek, but all their descendants as well.  Spelling and pronunciation is the hardest for me, because there is no rhyme nor reason to it.

My favorite joke is, how do you pronounce "ghoti?"

The answer is, like "fish," because you have:

"gh" as in Rou*gh*
"o" as in w*o*men
"ti" as in pa*ti*ence


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## Outsider

Hakro said:
			
		

> I think it's the same problem in every language (even in English) and it's only because common people can't think mathematically. We have had this arguing about "three times less" for as long as I can remember (and it's not a short time).


I agree with you. However, I wouldn't say that people "can't think" mathematically. It's just that natural languages can be ambiguous. You need a special jargon, to be mathematically precise.


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## Blackleaf

The "ough" combination of letters can be pronounced in about 7 different ways - 

1. though (like o in go)
2. through (like oo in too)
3. cough (like off in offer)
4. rough (like uff in suffer)
5. plough (like ow in flower)
6. ought (like aw in saw)
7. borough (like a in above)

THAT'S how difficult and crazy English spelling and pronounciation can be.


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## ireney

Well I never thought of English as especially messy to tell you the truth. The "take a wild guess on how you pronounce each  vowel" yes. Other than that no. I mean sure, there are some quirks that may sound strange to people learning English (incidentally I never had a problem with "out of", "off" etc so I can't see what's the problem) but in general I actually found it rather 'tidy'.

You see my native language is nonconfigurational, which means that it doesn't follow a pattern; it can be SOV, OSV, OVS, SOV whatever. You can't beat the complexity of such a language.

In addition we spell the way our ancient ancestors did but pronounce things in a totally different way. (i.e. Ι,Υ,Η,ΕΙ, ΟΙ, ΥΙ all sound like i in ink). Just recently a friend of mine told me I am not allowed anymore to make fun of English spelling-pronouncing since in no circumstance does the English language turn a vowel into a consonant (AY is pronounced either av or af and the same goes for EY).

We have also accumulated enough idioms to make not using one virtually impossible and have our own little quirks i.e. "ξε" (xe) as a prefix can either be a privative or an intensifier among other things


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## Stéphane89

I think every language is messy! But in my opinion, English is one of the least one!

What about French, in which there are so many confusing things that I can't think of one to give as an example. The conjugation is horribly hard even for native! (I remember all the hours I spent bent over my book trying to study the 'Passé simple' or the 'Futur antérieur'). But now I think about it, I have never understood why the 'Passé simple' is called like that (it means litterally: 'Easy past') because it actually is the hardest tense!

In Spanish, the conjugation is also very complicated. With many irregular verbs and many endings that look like each other but aren't really the same.

In Dutch, there's nothing really confusing but the vocabulary is quite hard.

As for English, I find it find it quite logic compared with the languages I talked about higher. The only confusing things are the Present perfect and the Simple Past (when to put one or the other). And I recently tried to find out the real difference between Shall and Will but I soon gave up.


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## panjabigator

If English is messy, then all languages are messy. If English isn't messy, then no language is messy. I just think that there is no way to say it is messy. Sure sometimes the rules are complex because of the irregularities, but nearly every language (except for Latin, Sanskrit and maybe a few others) have irregularities to overcome. English has a weird "to be" conjugation you may say. Well, Spanish does too...how does someone get "fue" from "ser?"

By the way, I have a ridiculously difficult time explaining Hindi and Panjabi rules to natives and non-natives alike.  The natives have no regards for the rules (they go by what sounds right by ear) and the non-natives...well, I just do not know how to find a place to start teaching.  This will have to be something for me to overcome as I am going to be a Hindi teaching assistant in the fall semester!


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