# Difficulty of German



## AmigoKurt

Hi. Why is German such a difficult language?
What would be the difficulty for an English speaker?

Thanks.


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## Jana337

AmigoKurt said:
			
		

> Hi. Why is German such a difficult language?


Its difficulty is often overrated. It is simply... beautiful! 


> What would be the difficulty for an English speaker?


 I think I would single out everything about nouns - articles, declensions and plurals. 

In German, there are many things that you have to master at the very beginning, which is rather overwhelming. In Romance languages, difficulties arise later. Speaking in Italian after a couple of weeks - albeit on a basic level - is not very demanding, but their tense system is a pain. In German, a beginner has to pay attention to incredibly many details, and the progress seems to be very slow. But it does not get more difficult later, methinks.

The stories about how difficult German is must be spread by people who never got beyond the initial, painful stage. 

Bottomline: Don't give up, the hard work will pay off!

Jana


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## englishman

AmigoKurt said:
			
		

> Hi. Why is German such a difficult language?
> What would be the difficulty for an English speaker?
> 
> Thanks.


Your question assumes that German is a difficult language. I'd suggest that it isn't, at least for an English speaker; for an English speaker, it's a relatively easy language, since there's a lot of shared grammar, and a fair bit of shared vocabulary (though certainly not as much as is shared with French).

To me, the greatest difficulty in German is the use of separable prefixes to construct verbs from a common root: 

an-, zu-, zer-, ver-, er-, bei-,  be-,  etc

all of which seem to (more or less) randomly change the meaning of the root.


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## gabrigabri

What you say with 1 word in English or Italian or Franch it said with 150 in German  :
to put (mettere, mettre): so many words! after 5 years school and 2 years in Vienna I still have problems with it!! It can be: geben, legen, stellen, tun, machen, anziehen, aufsetzen, stecken. 

to go (andare, aller): so many words! if you go with the car:fahren, with a plane:fliegen, on foot:gehen...

and so on!


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## morx

Yes, I do think German is a very difficult language!
I'm so glad to be a native speaker.
I think if I had to learn it as a second language, I would kill myself, honestly!
I don't have a single clue about grammar except punctuation rules.
And yet, I almost never make any mistakes.

Grammar is the biggest problem for foreigners. Often (as mentioned above) we cannot keep a sentence short if we want to explain a certain idea. It often calls for a few commas and a long sentence.


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## gabrigabri

Sorry for not writing in English, but it would be extremly hard!

Morx, ich muss dir leider widersprechen. Ich denke nicht, dass die deutsche Grammatik SO schwierig ist. Ich habe persönlich mehr Probleme mit der englischen. Oder, wenn ich nicht aus Italien wäre, hätte ich große Probleme mit der französischen (es gibt zwischen den 2 Sprachen viele Ähnlichkeiten). Ja klar, ich mache sehr oft (dumme) Fehler, aber es ist normal, oder? Mir wurde es immer gesagt, dass die deutsche Grammatik ähnlich der Mathematik ist: wenn du einmal die Regeln verstehst, dann hast du keine Probleme mehr. 
Ich glaube eher, dass die Schwierigkeiten in dieser (sehr schönen) Sprache darin bestehn, die Kleinigkeit zu verstehen: z.b. wie gesagt, ob man ein Wort oder lieber ein Anderes benutzen soll. Ich kann nocht nicht richtig entscheiden, ob ich etwas mitnehme oder mitbringe, wobei ich (theoretisch!) den Unterschied kenne.

Auch wo du sprichst darüber, dass eure Sätze zu lang sind: es stimmt m.M.n gar nicht! Ich merke sehr sehr oft, wie ihr lieber 10 kurze Sätze schreibt, mit vielen´Punkten (.), statt eines oder zweier kleinen Sätze zu schreiben (wie in Italienisch). Ausserdem ihr kennt nicht (kaum) den Semikolon (Strichpunkt?). Oder?

Bitte korregieren! 
Danke! Tschüs

P.s. Hätte ich lieber z.b. Folgendes sagen: Mir wurde es immer gesagt, dass die deutsche Grammatik ähnlich der Mathematik SEI (statt ist). Wie kann ich entscheiden, ob es sich um einen Konjuktiv 1(??) handelt?


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## cyanista

If you start learning German you'll soon be having nightmares about German word order.


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## beigatti

Ich finde, es kommt daher, dass die, die Englisch sprechen, ihre eigene Grammatik nicht kennen.  Wenn man die englische Grammatik nicht kenne, ist Deutsch unmoeglich.


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## Jana337

beigatti said:
			
		

> Ich finde, es kommt daher, dass die, die Englisch sprechen, ihre eigene Grammatik nicht kennen.  Wenn man die englische Grammatik nicht kenne, ist Deutsch unmoeglich.


Hi Jo Ann, 

Long time no see! 

Please let's discuss in English in this thread because its opener needn't be fluent in German.

Jana


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## beigatti

Sorry!

Most native English speakers don't know their own grammar, so learning German is impossible for them.


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## Argentum

Well, the same here, most people don't think about grammar when they talk, I think it's the same everywhere. I've seen that many germans don't know about declinations, and dativ or akkusativ forms, but they manage them perfectly. I've learned a lot of grammar while studying german lately, I always have known what an indirect and a direct object is, but never tried to apply it while speaking! it's challenging!

With english something weird happened to me, because I've learn it without lerning grammar before! May be because you hear english so often everywhere. Well, I know that my english may need a lot of work still, but compared with my german it's very good 

I find German quite hard to learn, I agree with someone above who said that it's because you have to manage many things from the start... so I'm at that "painful" phase now... hope it won't last much longer! lol.

Another thing really challenging about german is its word order... so different from english and spanish! Very often happens to me, that I know the meaning of each word... but I haven't a clue about what the sentence says! This didn't happen so often while learning english.

I think that english helps "a little" to learn german, but not so much... in some aspects I think that even we spanish speakers, have some advantages over english speakers at the time of learning German grammar. Sometimes I find things in german which are very similar to spanish ones, specially old spanish, and other things that work like in english, this was a surprise to me... still wonder why.


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## morx

@gabrigabri:
You are completely right concerning the strict differentiation between words. German has soo many words for a specific situation (especially verbs).
I have a different opinion about English grammar, I find it very easy.
There are only a little few things you need to adjust, plus there are almost no genders.

About the "knowing about grammar", as said above, I don't know most of the rules.
I had no idea how to teach grammar to somebody as a teacher. It drives me nuts, but I never get it wrong... How very odd.
A lot of rules mentioned in this forum are completely new to me.


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## Whodunit

gabrigabri said:
			
		

> P.s. Hätte ich lieber z.b. Folgendes sagen: Mir wurde es immer gesagt, dass die deutsche Grammatik ähnlich der Mathematik SEI (statt ist). Wie kann ich entscheiden, ob es sich um einen Konjuktiv 1(??) handelt?


 
It depends on what you want to say. If you know that it is like mathematics, you have to use "ist". If you just think that it could be/seems to be like math, I'd prefer "sei".

As you can see, the subjunctive in German is not used because grammar says it, but because the speaker feels it.


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## DerDrache

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Its difficulty is often overrated. It is simply... beautiful!  I think I would single out everything about nouns - articles, declensions and plurals.
> 
> In German, there are many things that you have to master at the very beginning, which is rather overwhelming. In Romance languages, difficulties arise later. Speaking in Italian after a couple of weeks - albeit on a basic level - is not very demanding, but their tense system is a pain. In German, a beginner has to pay attention to incredibly many details, and the progress seems to be very slow. But it does not get more difficult later, methinks.
> 
> The stories about how difficult German is must be spread by people who never got beyond the initial, painful stage.
> 
> Bottomline: Don't give up, the hard work will pay off!
> 
> Jana



Das ist, was ich gefunden habe.

When I was just starting out (I'd put myself at a low intermediate level currently), there was sooo much information to process. Word order was, and still is a biggie. Noun declension. Stem-changing verbs. Prepositions....

I think it would be incredibly easy to become overwhelmed with German...but I think the best advice I could give is to start slow, and start with the basics. I also recommend using reading (ie. parallel texts, kids books, etc.) once you have a basic foundation. It really gives you a feel for how the language works, and after a while a lot of the "weirdness" of the language becomes commonplace.


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## kota

cyanista, I think you're being funny. Thanks.
But really, that was my first impression, too - that German is difficult to learn.

I had wanted just to learn a few German words to impress my client, but I met a teacher in another language forum who was soooooo good a teacher. He was a real motivator that he supplied me with many German resources.

I started with the picture dictionary and like a child, I began to pick up some words. From there I began asking questions whenever I can - and I found out that there was more to language.

Where? In this forum. Jana337 was quite helpful. And now I'm getting interested.


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## gaer

Welcome. 

I'm going to give you a very different answer, perhaps. If you begin any language as an adult without any prior experience with the language, you probably will never write the language well enough to "pass yourself off" as a "native". Not unless you are naturally gifted with languages to begin with. I'm not. Most adults are not. And even if you do learn to "write like a native", when you speak, you will have an accent that will immediately tell people that you did not learn German as your primary language. You will probably never be able to pick up everything you hear as well as "natives", not when speech is fast.

(Warning: We have some extremely gifted people in this forum. To name just one such person, Elroy has picked up German and mastered it to a large degree in a very short period of time. If we all had his talent, we would all speak about ten languages with little difficulty!) 

However, I can tell you for a fact that you CAN learn to read another language with incredibly fluency, even after starting as an adult. It only takes time and patience.

In addition, what is all the fuss about speaking and writing a language without mistakes? I know this forum puts great emphasis on being correct, but it is a language forum, and most of the people here are extremely serious about wishing to master either English or German—or both. This does not mean that they will expect you to begin without mistakes. Some people jump right in, and that's probably the best way. I'm the oddball in the group, because I spend so much time reading German, fascinated with some new word or a great new story, I barely have enough brains left to write a coherent sentence in English by the time I get here.

To master either German or English, you have to overcome huge obstacles. Every language has tricky points. I don't think that German is either harder or easier than other languages. Just different, with its own character.

German grammar is very tricky, but you can murder it and still be understood. We both understand people who murder English. I know some people who speak English in a way that is so wrong, it is amazing, yet they are fluent and have no problems being understood. I'm not recommending this, just stating that it is so. You do not need a super understanding of English grammar to communicate, but it is true that a good grounding in grammar will help you if you decide, at any point, that you are serious about mastering fine points.

Bottom line: concentrate on two facts. First, German shares a great deal of vocabulary with English. Second, German word order, although very different from modern English, is not terribly different from Shakespeare's English. Stay away from any books that claim to teach you "German in 30 seconds". For most people a class is a must, although I learned on my own, which is a bit weird. Visit the German forum daily, ask questions, and just have fun. You might be surprised at how much you pick up. And don't ever be shy about asking what things mean. 

Gaer


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## kota

Thanks for the encouragement, gaer.  I’ll pick up from AmigoKurt.
   I’m beginning to be curious about the characteristics of language after my attempts at German. 

   If there is a relationship with English, then I think I can tackle it.


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## wolverine77

If you are having trouble getting started in german, I highly suggest using Michel Thomas' german audio CD course. This helped me out immensely when I started having trouble with grammar and sentence structure. You can find them at xxx and other places on the web. Thomas' teaching method is very easy to understand and you should have a very firm grasp of the basics of german grammar and pronunciation after listening to them. After about halfway through the 8 hour course I went from not being able to read or write anything, to forming my own basic sentences and being able to read at least parts of german.


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## kota

Thanks, wolverine77,
I'll look into that. 
Now that you mentioned about a "Thomas' teaching method '" I am reminded about a popular Thomas' teaching method described as "each one - teach one" used by the Americans in my country decades ago.


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## linguist786

It's weird when I think about it.. I've been learning German for quite some years now.. but when I think about it, I can't imagine starting from scratch again. (I mean, if I was to teach a beginner German, I'd find it so difficult!)

Don't worry too much - after some time, you actually start to pick up "Sprachgefuehl" (a feel for the language), after which you'll feel great!

Given-Sie up nicht!


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## kota

Thanks, linguist786,
Very inspiring.
I see you're too young and yet knowledgeable about these things.


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## flame

A lot of wise things have been said in this thread. Some days have past, but to encourage people to learn foreign languages let me keep the fire burning:

Don't set your expectations too high. Find satisfaction in speaking a foreign language decently, not perfect. You will see in all the forums that even native speakers face difficulties with their own language (like me) - so WHAT!

Don't interpret - immitate!
(this is my personal favourite)


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## englishman

flame said:
			
		

> Don't interpret - immitate!
> (this is my personal favourite)



Along these lines, I would suggest that someone who wants to learn a foreign language should find some poetry or song lyrics that they like, and memorize them - this is a great way to commit correct grammar to memory, and to build up a mental repository of words.


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## selters

englishman said:
			
		

> To me, the greatest difficulty in German is the use of separable prefixes to construct verbs from a common root:
> 
> an-, zu-, zer-, ver-, er-, bei-, be-, etc
> 
> all of which seem to (more or less) randomly change the meaning of the root.


 
I have to agree. Even though my native language is Norwegian, a language which uses many of these prefixes, I have a hard time seeing the system (if there is one). Of course, there are some guidelines to follow, but there are so many exceptions that it just seems random to me


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## Kajjo

selters said:
			
		

> I have to agree. Even though my native language is Norwegian, a language which uses many of these prefixes, I have a hard time seeing the system (if there is one). Of course, there are some guidelines to follow, but there are so many exceptions that it just seems random to me



I am afraid you are right... The longer one thinks about exceptions, the more come to mind. These syllables must be a real challenge for learners!

Kajjo


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## TwinklingStar

Hi, this thread got me thinking about what I find difficult in German, and especially what I found difficult when I first started. When I started, I think the main thing was cases... nominative, accusative, dative, genetive, because I had no idea when 'der' changed to 'den' or 'dem' etc 
However, now I have learnt the grammar rules and generally am pretty good at it, I agree that word order is a problem and also I think it is hard to be creative when writing essays; for example, I find it easier to write essays in French and this maybe because German is more restrictive in terms of where words should go in a sentece, and also French word order is pretty similar to English.


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## gaer

englishman said:
			
		

> Along these lines, I would suggest that someone who wants to learn a foreign language should find some poetry or song lyrics that they like, and memorize them - this is a great way to commit correct grammar to memory, and to build up a mental repository of words.


Everyone is different. I can't memorize poetry or song lyrics in English. 

Gaer


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## englishman

Kajjo said:
			
		

> I am afraid you are right... The longer one thinks about exceptions, the more come to mind. These syllables must be a real challenge for learners!
> 
> Kajjo


On the other hand, in English, we seem to construct about half the language from various combinations of the ridiculously overused word "get", which, I guess, presents a similar difficulty for people learning English.


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## Kajjo

englishman said:
			
		

> On the other hand, in English, we seem to construct about half the language from various combinations of the ridiculously overused word "get", which, I guess, presents a similar difficulty for people learning English.



I guess, discussing the difficulties of English is off-topic. Anyway, I think that abundant and almost ubiquitous words like get, become, make and so on do not make it difficult to learn English -- to the contrary, if in doubt a simple try with one of those words will do the trick in most cases. Personally, I reckon the irregular pronunciation (or spelling?) to be the most difficult aspect of English.

My top favorites with regards to German would be:
+ Artikel und das Genus von Substantiven
+ starke/schwache/gemischte Deklination und die Vielfalt der Endungen

Kajjo


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## Kajjo

englishman said:
			
		

> On the other hand, in English, we seem to construct about half the language from various combinations of the ridiculously overused word "get", which, I guess, presents a similar difficulty for people learning English.



Of course you are right. We have to learn all compositions rather than trying to detect any rules behind the usage. (to become/get drunk, pregnant, sick, old...)

Kajjo


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## karada

One of the things I find frustrating about German is the need to memorize the plural of every noun. I only studied German for two semesters in college, but it is my understanding that there are some patterns but really no "rules" for forming plurals. Is this correct?

Like most English speakers, I also find the cases hard. It's very logical, but it requires far too much thinking before you reach the point that using the correct der/den/dem, etc. comes naturally. I certainly never reached that point. In studying German I realized what a "luxury" it is not to have to deal with cases when learning Romance languages.


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## Whodunit

Kajjo said:
			
		

> These syllables must be a real challenge for learners!


 
First off, it would make learning German very boring, if we hadn't exceptions and challenges, right? 

Those "syllables" (I'd prefer prefixes) are a hard challenge in many languages. It's the same in English:

go on/off/back/about/up/...
take off/on/back/aback/up/...

Regarding these samples, French and Spanish seem to be easier. Arabic has roots and derivatives (different stems of verbs). Czech is much like German or English with phrasal verbs ...


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## la anne

englishman said:
			
		

> Along these lines, I would suggest that someone who wants to learn a foreign language should find some poetry or song lyrics that they like, and memorize them - this is a great way to commit correct grammar to memory, and to build up a mental repository of words.


 
yeah. I actually have been trying to teach myself german for a little over a month now. it's proven quite difficult mainly because there are _so_ many ways to say one thing, but memorizing (and sitting down and translating) a cd is a big help! 

I'd recommend buying the cd of a musical so that there's a story involved. personally, I've translated 'the phantom of the opera' from spanish (twice), french, and german into english and it really helps. 
not to mention it's neat to know that the characters say different things in each language, which puts a different slant on the story.

it's also a great way to hear words pronounced _correctly_ and _fluidly._ cds (and movies) sound much more natural than the dialogue on language tapes.

I've also been watching the world cup with german commentary and it makes me so happy that I understand bits of it!


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## gaer

la anne said:
			
		

> yeah. I actually have been trying to teach myself german for a little over a month now. it's proven quite difficult mainly because there are _so_ many ways to say one thing, but memorizing (and sitting down and translating) a cd is a big help!
> 
> I'd recommend buying the cd of a musical so that there's a story involved. personally, I've translated 'the phantom of the opera' from spanish (twice), french, and german into english and it really helps.
> not to mention it's neat to know that the characters say different things in each language, which puts a different slant on the story.


I did the same kind of thing, but for me it was much easier to use a story or book. I'm a musician, but hearing people sing words has never helped me with language. I guess this simply shows how differently we all learn. 

Gaer


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## flame

englishman said:
			
		

> To me, the greatest difficulty in German is the use of separable prefixes to construct verbs from a common root:
> 
> an-, zu-, zer-, ver-, er-, bei-, be-, etc
> 
> all of which seem to (more or less) randomly change the meaning of the root.


 
Don't sense too much logic within the prefixes.

to dress is anziehen
to undress is ausziehen
to call someone in is beiziehen

and tomorrow, when you don't like to undress anymore for him/her you consider ausziehen again - which in this case means to move out of the apartment)

Take it easy and use the full verbs with all their pre- post- and whatever fixes in real situations so they get fixed in your memories

just imitate and don't interprete too much. Babies don't do it and they speak after 5 years (more or less).

It's not a general recipe, but I myself am not a fan of descriptive grammar when learning a foreign language. With my attempts to learn Swedish and Italian I did most progress when I was sitting in a cafeteria in Rome or at Hötorget in Stockholm, listening, imitating, earning the laughter (because I did something dizzy), and doing it again & again.

Music is good too for me - it has been discussed before


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## TwinklingStar

> Don't sense too much logic within the prefixes.
> 
> to dress is anziehen
> to undress is ausziehen
> to call someone in is beiziehen



well there is some logic in them....
for example anziehen
ziehen = to put
an|ziehen = to put on
and in english we can say "to put on" to mean "dress" as well e.g. put on a jumper.


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## Kajjo

TwinklingStar said:
			
		

> well there is some logic in them....
> for example anziehen
> ziehen = to put
> an|ziehen = to put on
> and in english we can say "to put on" to mean "dress" as well e.g. put on a jumper.



However, "ziehen" means "to pull".

Kajjo


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## Brioche

flame said:
			
		

> Don't sense too much logic within the prefixes.
> 
> to dress is anziehen
> to undress is ausziehen
> to call someone in is beiziehen


 
It gets better:
to move house = umziehen
to change one's clothes = sich umziehen.


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## Whodunit

Brioche said:
			
		

> It gets better:
> to move house = umziehen
> to change one's clothes = sich umziehen.


 
You forgot one thing:

to surround (sth. with) - (etw.) um'ziehen (mit)

And here's yet another funny word:

'umfahren - knock down
um'fahren - drive around

German is really difficult.


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## linguist786

Whodunit said:
			
		

> German is really difficult.


  You're always telling me it's logical!


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## gaer

linguist786 said:
			
		

> You're always telling me it's logical!


It's logical SOMETIMES. Other times it is not logical or consistent at all, which I think is true of all languages.

If languages were truly logical, we would get accurate translations from Babelfish!  

Gaer


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## Sidjanga

Argentum said:
			
		

> Sometimes I find things in german which are very similar to spanish ones, specially old spanish, and other things that work like in english, this was a surprise to me... still wonder why.



Well, yes, that´s curious indeed, isn´t it? 
I for my part have exactly the same feeling about Spanish, and I had it a lot more so in the beginning - as you advance in level it ebbs off a little bit 
But there are really loads of parallel structures, and many things that you´d never have dreamt of being correct not even in your wildest dreams, because they seem to be the naive and literal translation by some carefree beginner.
But you want to express yourself somehow and just have a go, and you actually expect that your interlocutor will probably not have a clue what you´re trying to convey, or that they might even erupt into laughter. 
But then it is just on the contrary, they are very impressed that you know that expression and congratulate you on your astoundingly high level 
Unfortunately - logically - this does not always work, though.

I think a great deal of that feeling stems from the fact that Spanish and German share an extensive usage of reflexive pronouns, which are used very scarcely in English: e.g. "me visto" / "ich ziehe mich an" <-> "I get dressed", "me es muy simpático" / "er/sie ist mir sehr sympatisch" <-> "I find him/her very nice" and so on.
But apart from that there are other idiomatic expressions too, e.g. "tirar la toalla" / "das Handtuch werfen", although I take it that this particular one exists in English too (¿¿¿Natives...???)
(I am sorry I can´t think of a better example right now, as soon as I come across one I´ll let you know  

Somewhere I read that a great deal of these parallels date back to Charlemagne, when many Spanish goods made their way to the German speaking area and vice versa, and consequently there was some linguistic exchange too.
Nevertheless, I personally don´t think that this alone would be sufficient to explain the origin of all the parallel structures in Spanish and German - at least in comparison with English, a Germanic language with the same linguistic roots as the latter one, where you´d actually expect more similarities with German.

And there´s one idiom in German thats origin I probably won´t ever fully understand. Where in Spanish you´d say "Esto me suena chino" - I´m not completely sure if you also use that in Argentina - the German equivalent is "das kommt mir Spanisch vor"  (yeah, I know, don´t hit me please, I didn´t invent it..., although you yourself being from Argentina might not mind too much anyway)

I am still waiting for someone who can provide me with a good explanation for that one...

Cheers


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## gaer

Sigianga said:
			
		

> But apart from that there are other idiomatic expressions too, e.g. "tirar la toalla" / "das Handtuch werfen", although I take it that this particular one exists in English too (¿¿¿Natives...???)


Absolutely!

Das Handtuch werfen, the towel throw,=
"throw in the towel".
Towell, toalla
"tirar la toalla"
"das Handtuch werfen"

It would be great if you can think of any more idioms that exists in German as well as English and Spanish. Each one would make a great thread and something that people could search for.


> And there´s one idiom in German thats origin I probably won´t ever fully understand. Where in Spanish you´d say "Esto me suena chino".


"Esto me suena chino" (That sounds like Chinese to me)
"That's Greek to me" (same meaning, it sounds like Greek to me)
"Das kommt mir Spanisch vor"

Ah, here is your explanation!

link

So now you know where the German version came from. 

Gaer


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## Sidjanga

Guten Morgen Gaer,

herzlichen Dank für den Link. 
Ja, das hatte ich schon mal irgendwo gehört, ich wollte es nur nicht ganz glauben und hatte es verdrängt...

Soeben habe ich auf deine Anregung hin (eine wunderbare Idee!) im Deutschforum eine neue Diskussionsrunde eröffnet: 
Redewendungen / German locutions (aus irgendeinem unverständlichen Grund lassen sie dich die direkten Links erst dann hier reinkopieren, wenn du dich  schon mehr als 30 Mal irgendwo beteiligt hast...  ¿¡¿?!?)
Ich hoffe, das ist auch in etwa so, wie du dir das vorgestellt hast 

Mal sehen, was alles kommt.

Ciao


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