# Vowel shifts in modern French



## Alan Evangelista

Hi, guys!

I am not sure this is the best forum for this question, but I think there is no perfect Word Reference forum to ask it, so at least here there is a bigger chance someone could answer.

I have always pronounced /ɛ̃/ (used in words like chien, vin and jardin in French) as /ɐ̃/ (used in words like rã, sã and santa in Portuguese - you can hears the sounds in Google Translate). However, I have recently reviewed the vowel trapezoid of both languages:
Portuguese phonology - Wikipedia
French phonology - Wikipedia

The two phonems are clearly in distinct positions of the vowels trapezoid, but I cannot hear any difference between both, nor can I understand how I should say /ɛ̃/ .

I read that I should simply say /ɛ/ (E sound in "bet" in English or "mel" in Portuguese) and blow air through the nose. However, when I do it, I get a sound similar to ɛ, different from /ɛ̃/ . But the way, in my ears /ɛ̃/ does not sound at all like a /ɛ/, so not even the IPA symbol itself makes sense to me.

Could someone please help me?

Thanks in advance!


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## merquiades

I will review your links at a later time, but personally I have always pronounced the two exactly the same, but it was something I figured out  all by myself listening to people pronouncing the two sounds.  So I would pronounce _rein_ and _saint_ like _rã_ and _sã_.    However, I learnt Portuguese in Portugal, so I'm not sure if that accounts for any difference.


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## Zec

French "/ɛ̃/" is actually quite a bit more open than it's oral counterpart /ɛ/, despite being written with the same letter due to tradition. I always pronounce it as a nasal front /ã/, contrasting (unless I mess up the pronunciation, since French is my L3...) with the nasal back /ɑ̃/. So pronouncing it similar to Portuguese /ɐ̃/ isn't too much of a mistake.


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## Cenzontle

I agree with Zec, French /ɛ̃/ is a front vowel, while (Brazilian) Portuguese /ɐ̃/ is more back.


> French "/ɛ̃/" is actually quite a bit more open than it's oral counterpart /ɛ/, despite being written with the same letter *due to tradition*.


Being an English-speaker, I originally associated French /ɛ̃/ with the [ᴂ] of (Am.Eng.) "d*a*nse" (not "d*e*nse"), until I learned of that tradition.


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## merquiades

I've listened to the nasal vowels here and I still associate Portuguese an, am in _campo, planta_ with [ᴂ] and  French /ɛ̃/.  They use the symbol /ɐ̃/ for Portugues but it doesn't sound to me to have any "a" quality to it , very unlike French _camp__, __plante__.  _Rather more like _Quimper__, __plainte_.


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## Dymn

What I hear is, using my native Catalan range of vowels:

*/ɑ̃/ *(_champ_): somewhere between /ɔ̃/ and /ã/, closer to /ɔ̃/ for European French, and to /ã/ for Canadian French
*/ɛ̃/* (_chien_): almost like /ã/ in European French, and /ɛ̃/ for Canadian French
*/ɔ̃/ *(_bon_): /õ/

As for Portuguese nasal vowels, I hear them exactly as they're transcribed (/ɐ̃/ being between /ã/ and /ə̃/), so the difference between French /ɛ̃/ and Portuguese /ɐ̃/ is indeed very small.


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## Zec

My ears agree with Dymn.


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## merquiades

Dymn said:


> What I hear is, using my native Catalan range of vowels:
> 
> */ɑ̃/ *(_champ_): somewhere between /ɔ̃/ and /ã/, closer to /ɔ̃/ for European French, and to /ã/ for Canadian French
> */ɛ̃/* (_chien_): almost like /ã/ in European French, and /ɛ̃/ for Canadian French
> */ɔ̃/ *(_bon_): /õ/
> 
> As for Portuguese nasal vowels, I hear them exactly as they're transcribed (/ɐ̃/ being between /ã/ and /ə̃/), so the difference between French /ɛ̃/ and Portuguese /ɐ̃/ is indeed very small.


I agree with you in exerything except with "*/ɛ̃/* (_chien_): almost like /ã/ in European French".  _Chien_ doesn't sound like it has an /ã/ sound at all to me:  as in _dans, champs, paon _
That is unless your /ã/ is not IPA but Portuguese spelling.  There I would agree sã = saint.


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## Zec

That's because the vowel in _dans_, _champs_, _paon_ would be more properly represented as [ɑ̃], or even [ɒ̃] if it really happens to be rounded (it's difficult to hear the difference by ear only).

Thing is, even though IPA transcriptions are supposed to show a languages actual pronunciation, they are ironically similar to standard orthographies in that they eventually end up lagging behind the changes occurring in the spoken languages. The standard IPA transcriptions of English and French represent the pronunciation of the early 20th century standard language, which has changed quite a bit in England (with "RP" being replaced by "SSBE" as the de facto standard in media). French hasn't changed that much, but some transcriptions are still imprecise. How French nasal vowels are transcribed doesn't quite represent their true pronunciation, they'd have to be moved counter-clockwise in the IPA diagram a little bit to be precise: /ɛ̃/ is more open than /ɛ/, /ã/ is more back than /a/ and /ɔ̃/ is more closed than /ɔ/ (In France, in Quebec it's more similar to their transcriptions, but tends to move in the opposite direction, from what I've heard).


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## Swatters

The traditional IPA transcription of the DANS vowel is already /ɑ̃/.  Something like /ɒ̃/ would indeed be more accurate to the realisation in Northern European French.

If we ever reform the transcription of French, I'd be more partial to /ẽ - ã - õ/ for the current /ɛ̃ - ɑ̃ - ɔ̃/, since they'd have the advantage of being dialect-agnostic and easy to type while still showing their phonetic and morphological alternation with those oral vowels.


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## In-Su

This is an interesting topic. It's actually not uncommon at all in France to confuse /a/ and /ɛ̃/ in some situations. Watching tennis when I was younger, I thought it was weird how scoring a point could get you from 40-30 to 40-1.  Trying to de-nasalize /ɛ̃/ by blocking the air that passes through my nose, /ɛ/ is definitely not the phoneme that comes out; it's more of an "a" sound but I couldn't say if it's /a/ for sure.
My experience with Brazilian Portuguese being so limited, I can only speak for European Portuguese. Oddly enough I've always thought of /ɐ̃/ as being closer to our /ɑ̃/ but that might just be me; I could be biased due to spelling. It'd be interesting if a Portuguese native with some knowledge of French could share their opinion.


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## Alan Evangelista

merquiades said:


> I have always pronounced the two exactly the same, but it was something I figured out all by myself listening to people pronouncing the two sounds. So I would pronounce _rein_ and _saint_ like _rã_ and _sã_. However, I learnt Portuguese in Portugal, so I'm not sure if that accounts for any difference.



/ɐ̃/ and /ɛ̃/are somewhat close, but not the same, as I explain below.

/ɐ̃/ in European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese are very close; the former is a little more central in tongue height than the latter (see the vowel trapezoids of European and Brazilian Portuguese in the link about Portuguese phonology in my first post). Personally, I cannot perceive the difference.



Zec said:


> French "/ɛ̃/" is actually quite a bit more open than it's oral counterpart /ɛ/, despite being written with the same letter due to tradition.



That's right! I have just recently found out that after making this same question in French Stack Exchange:
Why is the nasal vowel /ɛ̃/ transcribed as it is if it is closer to [ã]?

I learned there that French /ɛ̃/ had this sound in the past, but it has shifted to [æ̃] in France and to [ẽ] in Canada. This is *so *confusing to French students! I wonder why nobody updates the phonetic/phonemic transcriptions.

By the way, this is documented on the French Phonology wikipedia:


> In some dialects, particularly that of Europe, there is an attested tendency for nasal vowels to shift in a counterclockwise direction: /ɛ̃/tends to be more open and shifts toward the vowel space of /ɑ̃/ (realised also as [æ̃]), /ɑ̃/rises and rounds to [ɔ̃] (realised also as [ɒ̃]) and /ɔ̃/ shifts to [õ] or [ũ]. Also, there also is an opposite movement for /ɔ̃/ for which it becomes more open and unrounds to [ɑ̃], resulting in a merger of Standard French /ɔ̃/and /ɛ̃/ in this case.[32][33] In Quebec French, two of the vowels shift in a different direction: /ɔ̃/ → [õ], more or less as in Europe, but /ɛ̃/ → [ẽ] and /ɑ̃/ → [ã].



side-note: IMHO there is a little error there in Wikipedia: "/ɛ̃/ tends to be more open and shifts toward the vowel space of  /ɑ̃/  /ã/"



Zec said:


> I always pronounce it as a nasal front /ã/, contrasting (unless I mess up the pronunciation, since French is my L3...) with the nasal back /ɑ̃/.



The current French French pronunciation is in fact [æ̃] (like saying A in English "bat", but nasalized), which is indeed near [ã].



In-Su said:


> My experience with Brazilian Portuguese being so limited, I can only speak for European Portuguese. Oddly enough I've always thought of /ɐ̃/ as being closer to our /ɑ̃/ but that might just be me; I could be biased due to spelling. It'd be interesting if a Portuguese native with some knowledge of French could share their opinion.



Brazilian Portuguese /ɐ̃/ is a low central vowel and thus it is in the midway between French /ɑ̃/ (back vowel) and French French /ɛ̃/ ([æ̃]) (front vowel). There is a subtle difference in pronunciation between Brazilian and European Portuguese's /ɐ̃/, as I explained above.

Sincerely, to my native Brazilian ears, all three of them sound similar, but  /ɛ̃/ sounds closer to /ɐ̃/.  /ɑ̃/ sometimes sounds close to /ɐ̃/ and sometimes closer  to /ɔ̃/ (depends on speaker).


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## Zec

Alan Evangelista said:


> I learned there that French /ɛ̃/ had this sound in the past, but it has shifted to [æ̃] in France and to [ẽ] in Canada. This is *so *confusing to French students! I wonder why nobody updates the phonetic/phonemic transcriptions.



Ironically (since phonetic transcription is supposed to represent pronunciation), probably for the same reasons why nobody updates the standard orthography: reluctance to change a written standard with or without a good reason. In addition, I think at first people aren't even aware that pronunciation has changed... they simply learn the vowel in _vin_ is /ɛ̃/ and only when contrasted with foreign dialects or languages can they become aware that something is not right...


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## Zec

Concerning the pronunciation of /ɛ̃/, I've listened to _vin_ on Forvo:

Of the Canadian speakers, Silveroo has a clear [ɛ̃], while mseers has a diphthong [ɛ̃ĩ]

Of the French speakers, Sabir and Newdelly have an extremely front [ã], rather like the modern British, but not the Americal TRAP vowel. Newdelly's in particular is somewhat denasalized so it almost sounds like _va_, but the _a_ is fronter than usual. Clador06 has a rather but not extremely front [ã], while arnaud and gwen_zbh have a more central-ish [ä̃].

So, I'd say overall [ã] is a good description of what /ɛ̃/ has become, moreso than [æ̃]: as I've said it can resemble a nasalized British /æ/, but that vowel has also moved in the direction of [a], and it doesn't quite resemble the American /æ/.

P. S: Compare also how satsujin (Canada) pronounces _sans_, and how gwen_bzh and Domigloup (France) pronounce _sain_. They are practically identical, in fact gwen_bzh's _sain_ sounds darker to me than satsujin's _sans_! (And I recall when for a class I listened to some Québécois videos, a woman's _constamment_ sounded like _consta-main_ to me)


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## Alan Evangelista

Zec said:


> Of the Canadian speakers, Silveroo has a clear [ɛ̃], while mseers has a diphthong [ɛ̃ĩ]
> 
> Of the French speakers, Sabir and Newdelly have an extremely front [ã], rather like the modern British, but not the Americal TRAP vowel. Newdelly's in particular is somewhat denasalized so it almost sounds like _va_, but the _a_ is fronter than usual. Clador06 has a rather but not extremely front [ã], while arnaud and gwen_zbh have a more central-ish [ä̃].



Thanks for that feedback!

I believe that my hearing is not that good. I hear [ẽ] in the Canadian pronunciations and [æ̃] / [ã] in the French pronunciations.



Zec said:


> gwen_bzh's _sain_ sounds darker to me than satsujin's _sans_



What does "darker" mean in this context?


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## Zec

Well, to some extent sound perception is subjective. For a long time I've had a wrong impression of [ɛ], since in my dialect the "open _e_" actually overlaps [ɛ] and [æ], and my "ideal [ɛ]" was as a consequence too open.

So, it may be that the reason I describe the most fronted of the French pronunciations of /ɛ̃/ as [ã] rather than [æ̃], since the vowel quality registered as my /a/ and not as my /æ/. Most American (and Australian) /æ/'s, when they're not a diphthong like [æa], register as my /æ/ while the British ones sound too open, and it's been said these have moved in the direction of [a] - so, I based by interpretation of the French open and front /ɛ̃/ as /ã/ on that.

I have no doubts that the Canadians really do say [ɛ̃], the second one confused me for a bit untill I noticed it had a diphthong, but on a closer inspection the first vowel sounder open too.


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## merquiades

Alan Evangelista said:


> Thanks for that feedback!
> 
> I believe that my hearing is not that good. I hear [ẽ] in the Canadian pronunciations and [æ̃] / [ã] in the French pronunciations.


  I hear [ẽ]  and  [æ̃] too.   When Silbaroo says _vin_ with a Canadian drawl I hear Portuguese _vem_.


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## Zec

I listened to some Portugues _vem_/_vêm_ on Forvo, and while a few of them match the Canadian _vin_ I linked to, most have a more closed vowel. Looking at the Portuguese vowel charts available on the Internet, at least Brazilian Portugues /ẽ/ can be closer to [ɛ̃ ] than to [ẽ] - although, one of the speaker who have a rather open /ẽ/, mrilke, is from Portugal.

Conversely, I do remember hearing some Canadians pronouncing true [ẽ], I just wouldn't say the two I linked to are those.


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## merquiades

This may be true.  My experience of Portuguese is almost entirely Lisbon dialect.  So that may have conditioned my expectation of what _vem_ would sound like.  Regarding_ vêm_ I'd expect something even different.
There is a lot of variation in Canadian accent and some people try to alter their accent as well but  [ẽ] is possible at least.


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## Wai Ho

Alan Evangelista said:


> /ɐ̃/ and /ɛ̃/are somewhat close, but not the same, as I explain below.
> 
> /ɐ̃/ in European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese are very close; the former is a little more central in tongue height than the latter (see the vowel trapezoids of European and Brazilian Portuguese in the link about Portuguese phonology in my first post). Personally, I cannot perceive the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> That's right! I have just recently found out that after making this same question in French Stack Exchange:
> Why is the nasal vowel /ɛ̃/ transcribed as it is if it is closer to [ã]?
> 
> I learned there that French /ɛ̃/ had this sound in the past, but it has shifted to [æ̃] in France and to [ẽ] in Canada. This is *so *confusing to French students! I wonder why nobody updates the phonetic/phonemic transcriptions.
> 
> By the way, this is documented on the French Phonology wikipedia:
> 
> 
> side-note: IMHO there is a little error there in Wikipedia: "/ɛ̃/ tends to be more open and shifts toward the vowel space of  /ɑ̃/  /ã/"
> 
> 
> 
> The current French French pronunciation is in fact [æ̃] (like saying A in English "bat", but nasalized), which is indeed near [ã].
> 
> 
> 
> Brazilian Portuguese /ɐ̃/ is a low central vowel and thus it is in the midway between French /ɑ̃/ (back vowel) and French French /ɛ̃/ ([æ̃]) (front vowel). There is a subtle difference in pronunciation between Brazilian and European Portuguese's /ɐ̃/, as I explained above.
> 
> Sincerely, to my native Brazilian ears, all three of them sound similar, but  /ɛ̃/ sounds closer to /ɐ̃/.  /ɑ̃/ sometimes sounds close to /ɐ̃/ and sometimes closer  to /ɔ̃/ (depends on speaker).


You're right ! French accent has already changed, it's really [æ̃] or [ɐ̃] today, except Southern French, which it's still [ɛ̃]. Why doesn't the symbol change in dictionaries? Because nasal vowels haven't change in Southern French.


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## berndf

Wai Ho said:


> You're right ! French accent has already changed, it's really [æ̃] or [ɐ̃] today, except Southern French, which it's still [ɛ̃]. Why doesn't the symbol change in dictionaries? Because nasal vowels haven't change in Southern French.


I disagree. /ɛ̃/ is still a front vowel practically anywhere in French speaking Europe. In parts of France /ɛ̃/ is in the process of merging with /œ̃/, making _Ain_ and _un _sound almost the same. In these accents both vowels are slightly rounded but both are still front vowels.

An only slightly rounded [œ] can easily be confused with [ɜ] (e.g., some foreigners pronounce (Br) English _were_ [wœːə] instead of [wɜːə]). This might be responsible for the perception of /ɛ̃/ becoming [ɐ̃].


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## Alan Evangelista

berndf said:


> I disagree. /ɛ̃/ is still a front vowel practically anywhere in French speaking Europe. In parts of France /ɛ̃/ is in the process of merging with /œ̃/, making _Ain_ and _un _sound almost the same. In these accents both vowels are slightly rounded but both are still front vowels.



I respect your opinion, but it diverges from most people opinions here and in Why is the nasal vowel /ɛ̃/ transcribed as it is if it is closer to [ã]? . As I mentioned before, if I say /ɛ/ while letting air come out of my nose (i.e. nasalizing it), I get a very different sound from what I hear in French Forvo audios, newspapers, movies and songs.


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## bearded

Hi Alan
I would like to read your comment after you have listened to -  and compared - the pronunciations of _vin_ (wine) and _vent_ (wind) on forvo. I'm sure you can hear a clear distinction.


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## berndf

Alan Evangelista said:


> I respect your opinion, but it diverges from most people opinions here and in Why is the nasal vowel /ɛ̃/ transcribed as it is if it is closer to [ã]? . As I mentioned before, if I say /ɛ/ while letting air come out of my nose (i.e. nasalizing it), I get a very different sound from what I hear in French Forvo audios, newspapers, movies and songs.


Much of the discussion here has been about whether to describe the VIN vowel as /ɛ̃/ or as /æ̃/. I thinks this is immaterial as [ɛ] and [æ] aren't distinguished anyhow in French. The more interesting question is if it is a front or a central vowel and I am quite adamant that it still is a front vowel. The only thing that has changed in modern French French is lip rounding.


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## merquiades

I have heard a woman from Roubaix pronounce_ /æ̃/ _for /ɛ̃/ _vin, sain, main, teint._..  It was very noticeable because it creates a different impression. She also pronounced the vowel the vowel in _un _as /æ̃/.  So she pronounces "hain vain".  I don't think this is generalized or it would not surprise me.  I don't know that far northern part of France so I can't say about that area.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> It was very noticeable because it creates a different impression.


I think that is because you are an Englisch speaker. In my experience, French is much like German here. Maybe not as extreme as German but very similar: We hear absolutely no difference between _bed_ and _bad_ or between _dead_ and _dad_.


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## Alan Evangelista

bearded said:


> I would like to read your comment after you have listened to - and compared - the pronunciations of _vin_ (wine) and _vent_ (wind) on forvo. I'm sure you can hear a clear distinction.


There is a clear distinction: the vowel in "vent" is pronounced */ɑ̃/*, at the back of the mouth, and the vowel in "vin" is pronounced at the front/center of the mouth. The subject of the topic is not the difference between those 2 nasal vowels, but rather the current French pronunciation of the front/center vowel used in words like "vin".



berndf said:


> Much of the discussion here has been about whether to describe the VIN vowel as /ɛ̃/ or as /æ̃/. I thinks this is immaterial as [ɛ] and [æ] aren't distinguished anyhow in French. The more interesting question is if it is a front or a central vowel and I am quite adamant that it still is a front vowel. The only thing that has changed in modern French French is lip rounding.


You got the topic of the discussion right. I don't want to dive in a phonology discussion here, but the fact that the two phonems are not distinguished in French doesn't make this discussion useless, as it's very useful to people that also speak languages in which they are distinguished. For instance, I'm Brazilian in which there is no difference between those 2 phonems either, but I trained my ear to distinguish them and learned to pronounce them correctly in order to speak languages other than Portuguese more accurately.


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## merquiades

Alan Evangelista said:


> There is a clear distinction: the vowel in "vent" is pronounced */ɑ̃/*, at the back of the mouth, and the vowel in "vin" is pronounced at the front/center of the mouth. The subject of the topic is not the difference between those 2 nasal vowels, but rather the current French pronunciation of the front/center vowel used in words like "vin".


"Vent" is in the back, "vin" is in the front, both are not rounded.  I don't think the former exists in Portuguese, the later is kind of like "vem", but "vin" is lower, and more open.

@berndf Perhaps you are right. I would never confuse those phonemes. But in German you have ä and e, albeit never nasalized. There must be some minimal pairs?


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## Swatters

berndf said:


> The more interesting question is if it is a front or a central vowel and I am quite adamant that it still is a front vowel.


I'm not sure I'd be that adamant in that description. It's not unusual for /ɛ̃/ and /œ̃/ to partially denasalise in unstressed open syllables here and when that happens they become ambiguous with /a/ (usually quite central here), not with /ɛ/ and /œ/


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> But in German you have ä and e, albeit never nasalized. There must be some minimal pairs?


The difference between short _ä_ and short _e_ is purely orthographic. I.e. _Länge _is spelled with _ä _rather then _e_ only because it is derived from _lang _and for no phonetic reason. In older times it was spelled with _e_, like the English cognate _length_.

Long _ä_ and long _e_ are different  in minimal pairs like _Bären _and _Beeren _(at least in theory while many regional accents merge them): ä=è and e=é.


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## Sobakus

I think the disagreement here is partly due to terminology. The cardinal IPA [a] is a low *front* vowel, [ɑ] is its back counterpart. Most languages possess only one low vowel, and in them it's ambiguous as to backness. Often it behaves as phonologically back, but gets realised as mid or even front. The mid realisation is transcribed [ä] and is the A of Florentine Italian (not French, not Spanish). The Russian one is impressionistically slightly more back and centralised.

The vowel of Parisian French _vin_ to me is absolutely low and front, that is [ã]. The merger with [œ̃] can be explained by a combination of two facts: 1) that [a] has about the same frontness as [œ], while [ɛ] is much more front - this is why the vowel space looks like a triangle or trapezoid; 2) that the phonetic cues involved in nasalisation result in nasalised vowels sounding less peripheral, raising [ã] towards [œ̃].


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## berndf

Sobakus said:


> I think the disagreement here is partly due to terminology. The cardinal IPA [a] is a low *front* vowel, [ɑ] is its back counterpart.


I agree, although I am not a particular fan of using [a] for a front vowel (if such a thing as a fully open front vowel exists; something I am not totally convinced of). I at least have stuck to the original question and only commented on [ɐ] and not in [a] (nasalized or not).

At any rate, the vowel of VIN is certainly not fully open, so the issue doesn't arise.


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## Sobakus

berndf said:


> I agree, although I am not a particular fan of using [a] for a front vowel (if such a thing as a fully open front vowel exists; something I am not totally convinced of). I at least have stuck to the original question and only commented on [ɐ] and not in [a] (nasalized or not).
> 
> At any rate, the vowel of VIN is certainly not fully open, so the issue doesn't arise.


Ah, but this is very much connected to my 2). [ɐ] is not a central mid vowel, but a raised low vowel. Nasalisation results in perceptual raising, and this is precisely the reason for the nasalised /a/ having historically raised to /ɐ̃/ in Portuguese, and crosslinguistically often to /E/, the schwa or even /ɨ/; among Romance languages Emilian-Romagnol /kɛ̃/ and Rumanian /ˈkɨjne/ for CANEM are good examples. Portuguese actually contrasts the contextually nasalised [ã] and the phonemic [ɐ̃], spelled ân/m for disambiguation. The fact that our Brazilian forero perceives the vowel of _vin_ as close to the latter may indicate that it's indeed not fully open/low in French.


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## berndf

Sobakus said:


> [ɐ] is not a central vowel


What makes you say that? (Just to be clear about the terminology in English: "central"=in between front and back; "mid"=in between low and high).


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## Sobakus

berndf said:


> What makes you say that? (Just to be clear about the terminology in English: "central"=in between front and back; "mid"=in between low and high).


Why, a perpetual inability to tell between "central" and "mid"


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## jekoh

berndf said:


> In parts of France /ɛ̃/ is in the process of merging with /œ̃/, making _Ain_ and _un _sound almost the same.


What do you mean "almost"? They are the same sound in the majority of the country.


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## Wai Ho

merquiades said:


> "Vent" is in the back, "vin" is in the front, both are not rounded.  I don't think the former exists in Portuguese, the later is kind of like "vem", but "vin" is lower, and more open.
> 
> @berndf Perhaps you are right. I would never confuse those phonemes. But in German you have ä and e, albeit never nasalized. There must be some minimal pairs?


In France, yes, the vowel is lower (more open), but not lower tone.


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## Wai Ho

jekoh said:


> What do you mean "almost"? They are the same sound in the majority of the country.


Except the South and Lorraine


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## TitTornade

merquiades said:


> I've listened to the nasal vowels here and I still associate Portuguese an, am in _campo, planta_ with [ᴂ] and  French /ɛ̃/.  They use the symbol /ɐ̃/ for Portugues but it doesn't sound to me to have any "a" quality to it , very unlike French _camp__, __plante__.  _Rather more like _Quimper__, __plainte_.


1) When I listen to the prononciation of portuguese "_campo, planta" _, for my French ears, the prononciation of the nasal vowels is exactly between camp / Quimper or between plante / plainte. Plus, to my ears, these Portuguese nasals are not monophtongs.

2) I pronounce UN and AIN exactly in the same way.

3) It can be difficult for me to make a difference between VIN and VENT pronounced by some people from southern France.


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## Terio

Alan Evangelista said:


> I respect your opinion, but it diverges from most people opinions here and in Why is the nasal vowel /ɛ̃/ transcribed as it is if it is closer to [ã]? . As I mentioned before, if I say /ɛ/ while letting air come out of my nose (i.e. nasalizing it), I get a very different sound from what I hear in French Forvo audios, newspapers, movies and songs.


Maybe because there is too much variation in the actual articulation. So, any transcription would be arbitrary. I see it as an _ideal_ prononciation, maybe it is the closest to the _good_ prononciation tought for theater, radio, etc.


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## Wai Ho

TitTornade said:


> 1) When I listen to the prononciation of portuguese "_campo, planta" _, for my French ears, the prononciation of the nasal vowels is exactly between camp / Quimper or between plante / plainte. Plus, to my ears, these Portuguese nasals are not monophtongs.
> 
> 2) I pronounce UN and AIN exactly in the same way.
> 
> 3) It can be difficult for me to make a difference between VIN and VENT pronounced by some people from southern France.


You don’t make the difference between “ain” and “un”, but a and â?


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## merquiades

TitTornade said:


> 1) When I listen to the prononciation of portuguese "_campo, planta" _, for my French ears, the prononciation of the nasal vowels is exactly between camp / Quimper or between plante / plainte. Plus, to my ears, these Portuguese nasals are not monophtongs.
> 
> 2) I pronounce UN and AIN exactly in the same way.
> 
> 3) It can be difficult for me to make a difference between VIN and VENT pronounced by some people from southern France.


1)  I hear "campo" and "planta" as the vowel in "Quimper" and "plainte" but it might depend on the Portuguese dialect.  I didn't learn Brazilian pronunciation.

2) I'm surprised, you being from Nancy and all.  I see a huge difference between "brun" and "brin", "l'un" and "lin".  As much as between "tromper" and "tremper" which aren't distinguished in the Vallée de la Fensch, as in "Vous vous êtes trempé d' chmin, monsieur".

3) They pronounce the vowel in "vent" with a very open nasalized â sound and "vin" with a nasalized closed é.  I don't know the symbols for these sounds.  When I arrived in Marseilles by train, they called the station "Saint Charles", as if it were possible to write and say "séént".

Edit:  I understand your comment now.  It was in regard to something I wrote in 2019.  I guess I'm repeating myself then. Oh well...


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## Red Arrow

Not sure if anyone cares, but I would write "un bon vin blanc" in my accent as: [œ̃ bõ̞ væ̃ blʌ̰]

"in" is more open than "un" and "an", which are slightly more open than "on". "an" is clearly less open than "a".

"on" and "un" are said with rounded lips, "in" and "an" are not.

"un" and "in" are front vowels, "an" and "on" are back vowels.

(I know the tilde has to be on top, but I don't know how to write that on my phone)


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## merquiades

Red Arrow said:


> Not sure if anyone cares, but I would write "un bon vin blanc" in my accent as: [œ̃ bõ̞ væ̃ blʌ̰]
> 
> "in" is more open than "un" and "an", which are slightly more open than "on". "an" is clearly less open than "a".
> 
> "on" and "un" are said with rounded lips, "in" and "an" are not.
> 
> "un" and "in" are front vowels, "an" and "on" are back vowels.
> 
> (I know the tilde has to be on top, but I don't know how to write that on my phone)


I could subscribe to your description of the nasal vowels. That's about how I pronounce them.  I don't understand the transcription [blʌ̰] though.


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## Red Arrow

merquiades said:


> I could subscribe to your description of the nasal vowels. That's about how I pronounce them.  I don't understand the transcription [blʌ̰] though.


The tilde has to be on top, but I don't know how to write that on my phone.

There is almost no difference between my "on" and my "an" except for the rounded lips. "on" is a mid vowel and "an" is mid-open. The traditional transcription [ɑ̃] is said with your mouth wide open, like [a ä ɑ]. That is not how I say "an".

I mean the actual back vowel [ʌ], not the "cut" vowel in English, which is more like [ɐ].


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## merquiades

@Red Arrow  On Lexilogos you can type a vowel and put a tilde on top of it or just click on the vowel you want here.  You can cut and paste what words you write out phonetically in the box.


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## Wai Ho

merquiades said:


> 1)  I hear "campo" and "planta" as the vowel in "Quimper" and "plainte" but it might depend on the Portuguese dialect.  I didn't learn Brazilian pronunciation.
> 
> 2) I'm surprised, you being from Nancy and all.  I see a huge difference between "brun" and "brin", "l'un" and "lin".  As much as between "tromper" and "tremper" which aren't distinguished in the Vallée de la Fensch, as in "Vous vous êtes trempé d' chmin, monsieur".
> 
> 3) They pronounce the vowel in "vent" with a very open nasalized â sound and "vin" with a nasalized closed é.  I don't know the symbols for these sounds.  When I arrived in Marseilles by train, they called the station "Saint Charles", as if it were possible to write and say "séént".
> 
> Edit:  I understand your comment now.  It was in regard to something I wrote in 2019.  I guess I'm repeating myself then. Oh well...


Do you make the difference between “patte” and “pâte”?


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## berndf

Red Arrow said:


> There is almost no difference between my "on" and my "an" except for the rounded lips.


In modern French French both are rounded. An unrounded /ɑ̃/, as the traditional transcription describes it, sound Quebecois.


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## merquiades

Wai Ho said:


> Do you make the difference between “patte” and “pâte”?


I try to do so whenever I can remember but not usually.  Some people consider it snobbish to say _Tu ne vâs pâs au théâtre_..


berndf said:


> In modern French French both are rounded. An unrounded /ɑ̃/, as the traditional transcription describes it, sound Quebecois.


Yes, but "on" is rounded to the extreme, "an" slightly.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> Yes, but "on" is rounded to the extreme, "an" slightly.


Yes.


merquiades said:


> I try to do so whenever I can remember but not usually. Some people consider it snobbish to say _Tu ne vâs pâs au théâtre_..


This overuse of _â_ is a good sign that the speaker doesn't distinguish between the sounds. I have never met a French person who still distinguish _tache_ and_ tâche_. In Switzerland I hear it sometimes but only from older people (same by the way with_ mettre_ and _maître_).


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## Red Arrow

berndf said:


> Yes.
> 
> This overuse of _â_ is a good sign that the speaker doesn't distinguish between the sounds. I have never met a French person who still distinguish _tache_ and_ tâche_. In Switzerland I hear it sometimes but only from older people (same by the way with_ mettre_ and _maître_).


It was discussed in a previous thread that a can be pronounced as â before silent s and t, so I don't think "Tu ne vâs pâs au théâtre" is incorrect.

The difference between mettre and maître is upheld by everyone in Flanders, but not between -ais and -aît or between a and â.


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## berndf

Red Arrow said:


> The difference between mettre and maître is upheld by everyone in Flanders


You mean by non-native speakers? I make the distinction as well naturally but that is because I am German and distinguishing long and short vowels is natural to me.


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## merquiades

Red Arrow said:


> It was discussed in a previous thread that a can be pronounced as â before silent s and t, so I don't think "Tu ne vâs pâs au théâtre" is incorrect.
> 
> The difference between mettre and maître is upheld by everyone in Flanders, but not between -ais and -aît or between a and â.


That is why I chose "vas" and "pas".

I think the difference between _mettre_ and _maître_ is maintained more frequently, but there are of course lots of people who don't.


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## Red Arrow

berndf said:


> You mean by non-native speakers? I make the distinction as well naturally but that is because I am German and distinguishing long and short vowels is natural to me.


There is not much of a difference between the way Dutch-speaking and Francophone Flemings speak, except if they originate from abroad.


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## merquiades

Red Arrow said:


> There is not much of a difference between the way Dutch-speaking and Francophone Flemings speak, except if they originate from abroad.


You mean from France?
Well, okay.  I guess there are a lot of foreigners nowadays.


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## berndf

Red Arrow said:


> Francophone Flemings




Are you talking of France or Belgium?


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## Red Arrow

The nobility of Flanders often prefers to speak French. A friend of mine has a noble family and they are divided on whether they should switch to Dutch or not. Some only speak French in family gatherings, others speak it all the time despite living in Flanders. Their accent sounds the same as that of any French teacher in Flanders.

Sorry for going off-topic.


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## TitTornade

merquiades said:


> 1)  I hear "campo" and "planta" as the vowel in "Quimper" and "plainte" but it might depend on the Portuguese dialect.  I didn't learn Brazilian pronunciation.





merquiades said:


> Edit:  I understand your comment now.  It was in regard to something I wrote in 2019.  I guess I'm repeating myself then. Oh well...


Yes, I used the link your joined to your _old_ message, then used forvo to listen to these words.

The nasal sounds in Portuguese "planta" or "campo" from Brazil or from Portugal don't sound as "plainte" or "Quimper" for my ears. But this is my only source 



merquiades said:


> 2) I'm surprised, you being from Nancy and all.  I see a huge difference between "brun" and "brin", "l'un" and "lin".  As much as between "tromper" and "tremper" which aren't distinguished in the Vallée de la Fensch, as in "Vous vous êtes trempé d' chmin, monsieur".


I'm not from Nancy, I grew up in northwestern Lorraine ;-) And un / in / ain are the same for me. I think one of my colleague from Nancy is able to distinguish un and in / ain, but she's half brazilian 

I intended to talk about the similarity of "on" and "an" / "en" in some places in Lorraine  I agree with you.



Wai Ho said:


> Do you make the difference between “patte” and “pâte”?


Indeed ! I'm able to !




merquiades said:


> 3) They pronounce the vowel in "vent" with a very open nasalized â sound and "vin" with a nasalized closed é.  I don't know the symbols for these sounds.  When I arrived in Marseilles by train, they called the station "Saint Charles", as if it were possible to write and say "séént".


Exactly ! And they pronounce some "n" or "m" or "ng" after the nasal vowels as in portuguese, we don't prononce any nasal consonnant after the nasal vowel in northern France.


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## Wai Ho

merquiades said:


> That is why I chose "vas" and "pas".
> 
> I think the difference between _mettre_ and _maître_ is maintained more frequently, but there are of course lots of people who don't.


"Pas", "ça", "là", here in Quebec, we also say "pâ", "çâ", "lâ".


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