# We use "shall I" and "shall we" to make offers and suggestions, and to ask for advice.



## ktzzedgc

Original text: We use "shall I" and "shall we" to make offers and suggestions, and to ask for advice.

Translation: 我们使用 “shall I” 和 “shall we” 提出要约和建议，并寻求建议。

Can someone help to improve the above translation please?


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## aquariuser

I think there is nothing to improve,its great.


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## T.D

1. It is better to use 邀约 instead of 要约. 要约 is an offer you made to someone whom you are aiming to sign a contract with. It is a legal term. 邀约 is a general invitation.

2. 并 implies the actions happen simultaneously. Therefore, 提出邀约和建议，并寻求建议 means " making offers and suggestions, while asking for advice at the same time'.  One thing to mention is that, in Chinese, it is grammatically wrong to use commas between items in a list. We have 顿号  *、*

So, in my opinion, it should be *我们使用’shall I‘ 和'shall we' 来提出建议、发起邀约、征求意见。*

As a side note, from a linguistic perspective, when giving multiple examples or listing a series of similar words, the Chinese language doesn't use conjunctions that much as English----we tend to put them together. 

e.g.
I hereby announce you husband and wife = 我正式宣布你们结为夫妻。 （not 夫与妻）
We have a very good father and son relationship = 我们的父子关系非常好。（ not 父与子）
It is not a simple question of right or wrong = 这不是一个单纯的对错问题。（ not 对与错）

*But*, it is now understandable and acceptable to use redundant conjunctions. 
For example
这篇报告详细描述了事件的起因、经过和结果 is perfectly fine, while it actually should be 这篇报告详细描述了事件的起因、经过、结果。

This is called the Westernisation of the Chinese language, a very intriguing phenomenon.


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## ktzzedgc

aquariuser said:


> I think there is nothing to improve,its great.



多谢你那么抬举我！


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## ktzzedgc

Thanks for your reply, which I find to be instructive and helpful.



T.D said:


> 1. It is better to use 邀约 instead of 要约. 要约 is an offer you made to someone whom you are aiming to sign a contract with. It is a legal term. 邀约 is a general invitation.
> 
> 2. 并 implies the actions happen simultaneously. Therefore, 提出邀约和建议，并寻求建议 means " making offers and suggestions, while asking for advice at the same time'.  One thing to mention is that, in Chinese, it is grammatically wrong to use commas between items in a list. We have 顿号  *、*
> 
> So, in my opinion, it should be *我们使用’shall I‘ 和'shall we' 来提出建议、发起邀约、征求意见。*





T.D said:


> As a side note, from a linguistic perspective, when giving multiple examples or listing a series of similar words, the Chinese language doesn't use conjunctions that much as English----we tend to put them together.
> 
> e.g.
> I hereby announce you husband and wife = 我正式宣布你们结为夫妻。 （not 夫与妻）
> We have a very good father and son relationship = 我们的父子关系非常好。（ not 父与子）
> It is not a simple question of right or wrong = 这不是一个单纯的对错问题。（ not 对与错）



I understand the above examples. In fact, I have come across similar ones when I was learning Chinese at university. However, when it comes to do the actual translation, I am unable to do the job as well as a native Chinese speaker. It shows that I have a long way to go before I achieve native level proficiency in Chinese.



T.D said:


> *But*, it is now understandable and acceptable to use redundant conjunctions.
> For example
> 这篇报告详细描述了事件的起因、经过和结果 is perfectly fine, while it actually should be 这篇报告详细描述了事件的起因、经过、结果。
> 
> This is called the Westernisation of the Chinese language, a very intriguing phenomenon.



Thanks for your observation.


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## T.D

ktzzedgc said:


> I understand the above examples. In fact, I have come across similar ones when I was learning Chinese at university. However, when it comes to do the actual translation, I am unable to do the job as well as a native Chinese speaker. It shows that I have a long way to go before I achieve native level proficiency in Chinese.


Using redundant conjunctions is no longer considered a mistake, so you are all good. In fact it was me being too critical and rigorous. 
Just like aquariuser suggested, your sentence is perfectly understandable.


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## ktzzedgc

T.D said:


> Just like aquariuser suggested, your sentence is perfectly understandable.



Thanks but perfectly understandable is not my end goal. I wish to learn to speak idiomatic Mandarin Chinese.


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## Skatinginbc

ktzzedgc said:


> 我们使用 “shall I” 和 “shall we” 提出要约和建议，并寻求建议。





aquariuser said:


> its great.





T.D said:


> you are all good...your sentence is perfectly understandable.


你們說這句好，可是我覺得翻譯腔濃重, 看了糊塗, 還會被誤導:
(1) Making offers.  For example: "_Shall I carry your bag_?" (Cambridge Dictionary) ==> 這裡的 "making offers" 是提供協助, 不是 "要約" (締約立盟) 或 "邀約" (約請, 邀請赴約).
(2) 使用 XX 提出... ==> 不順
用鑽石切斷鋼管  (good)
用鑽石來切斷鋼管  (good)
使用鑽石切斷鋼管  (acceptable as a nominal clause but not acceptable as a predicate)
使用鑽石來切斷鋼管  (not that great but acceptable)
(3) 提出要约和建议，并寻求建议 ==> I am totally confused.


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## ktzzedgc

Skatinginbc said:


> 你們說這句好，可是我覺得翻譯腔濃重, 看了糊塗, 還會被誤導:



Thanks for your valuable feedback. Please correct my Chinese translation of the original text. I would appreciate it very much.



Skatinginbc said:


> (1) Making offers.  For example: "_Shall I carry your bag_?" (Cambridge Dictionary) ==> 這裡的 "making offers" 是提供協助, 不是 "要約" (締約立盟) 或 "邀約" (約請, 邀請赴約).



What a coincidence! I referred to Cambridge Dictionary's section on British Grammar when I was preparing a lesson on how to make suggestions.

Please substitute the appropriate symbols in the following lines:

dictionary _[dot]_ cambriddge _[dot]_ org _[forward slash]_ grammar _[forward slash]_ british-grammar _[forward slash]_ shall

dictionary _[dot]_ cambriddge _[dot]_ org _[forward slash]_ grammar _[forward slash]_ british-grammar _[forward slash]_ suggestions

and then use your browser to access said web pages.



Skatinginbc said:


> (2) 使用 XX 提出... ==> 不順
> 用鑽石切斷鋼管  (good)
> 用鑽石來切斷鋼管  (good)
> 使用鑽石切斷鋼管  (acceptable as a nominal clause but not acceptable as a predicate)
> 使用鑽石來切斷鋼管  (not that great but acceptable)



Based on your examples, I should drop 使 and simply use 用, is that right?



Skatinginbc said:


> (3) 提出要约和建议，并寻求建议 ==> I am totally confused.



Please, please....Suggest a translation that is idiomatic and unambiguous.


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## Skatinginbc

意譯: 我們可用 “shall I”、“shall we” 這樣的詢問句式來提議、徵求意見或表示有意相助.


ktzzedgc said:


> What a coincidence! I referred to Cambridge Dictionary's section on British Grammar.


It wasn't a coincidence.  I knew you were quoting from the Cambridge Dictionary, so my suggestions (e.g.,  *較*非正式的提议中 instead of  your *更*非正式的提议中 in another thread) were based on the contexts provided in that dictionary.


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## SuperXW

_我们使用 “shall I” 和 “shall we” 提出要约和建议，并寻求建议。_
非常难理解，让我回忆起以前那些晦涩难懂的“语法学习书”。

T.D的 我们使用’shall I‘ 和'shall we' 来提出建议、发起邀约、征求意见 看来明显更符合汉语习惯，便于理解了。
然后Skating讲了一个offer的问题，这也是个经常引起小麻烦但又容易被忽略的问题。
为什么连中国人都讲“我拿到offer了” 呢？因为这个词很难翻译。
汉语中，offer可以表示动词“提供”，但没有对应的名词，
*英语的offer可以表示名词：“提供（帮助/机会/...）这种行为”。这个词完全没法翻译成汉语。
字典中经常翻译成“邀约”，很容易被误解为“正式邀请”之类的。*
怎么解决呢？
我的意见是，*直接删除“发起邀约/表示有意相助”，因为这些都属于“建议”：“建议我来提包”难道不是建议吗？*为什么要搞的那么复杂呢？

再说“提出建议/寻求建议”。你原本翻译是：
_我们使用 “shall I” 和 “shall we” 提出要约和建议，并寻求建议。_
“建议”用了两次，原句中一个是suggestion，一个是advice。这两个词有没有区别呢？
如果没有区别，*为什么可以又提出建议，又寻求建议呢？听着就很让人费解*……
*其实严格来说，make suggestion和后面的ask for advice是有承接关系的。*

如：Shall we go to the park?
1. go to the park 提出建议
2. shall we 征求对上述建议go to the park的反馈意见
*如果没有1的建议，就不存在2的反馈意见。*
如：Shall we? 或 Where are we going? Shall we?
对方无法给你任何建议或意见，只会不知所云。
所以*shall I/we不独立具备ask for advice的功能。*

所以我最终的翻译建议为：
* 我們可用 “shall I”、“shall we” 這樣的詢問句式來提出建议并徵求反馈意見。*


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## Skatinginbc

原文列出三個*語用上*的功能 (注意: 是 "功能" functions，不是 "意義" meanings)：
(1) 表示有意相助: Shall I carry your bag? 我幫你提袋子, 好嗎？
(2) 提議: Shall I call again on Thursday? 星期四我再打次電話, 好嗎？
(3) 徵求意見: What shall we do with this? 這事我們該怎麼辦？

*語義上*, (1) 和 (2) 同屬一類, 都是徵求對所提出的 "建議" (e.g., 我幫你提袋子, 星期四我再打次電話) 的 "回饋" (e.g, 好嗎?) 。 可是*語用上*, 兩者的功能涇渭分明: 第一類是想表達善意 (trying to be nice), 第二類是真的提議想怎麼做 (making suggestions).


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## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> 原文列出三個*語用上*的功能 (注意: 是 "功能" functions，不是 "意義" meanings)：
> (1) 表示有意相助: Shall I carry your bag? 我幫你提袋子, 好嗎？
> (2) 提議: Shall I call again on Thursday? 星期四我再打次電話, 好嗎？
> (3) 徵求意見: What shall we do with this? 這事我們該怎麼辦？
> 
> *語義上*, (1) 和 (2) 同屬一類, 都是徵求對所提出的 "建議" (e.g., 我幫你提袋子, 星期四我再打次電話) 的 "回饋" (e.g, 好嗎?) 。 可是*語用上*, 兩者的功能涇渭分明: 第一類是想表達善意 (trying to be nice), 第二類是真的提議想怎麼做 (making suggestions).


这么说的话确实是。
中文好像没见过列举功用的词典吧？很不习惯见到字典中不讲meaning，讲function的。


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## Skatinginbc

SuperXW said:


> 不习惯见到字典中不讲meaning，讲function的。


我覺得在漢語環境中 (e.g., 在台灣) 想學好英語需兩種字典: (1) *定義式*的英語字典 (i.e., 強調語義; e.g.,  梁實秋主編的《遠東英漢大辭典》), (2) *用法式*的英英字典 (i.e., 強調語用; e.g., _Collins COBUILD_ _Advanced_ _Learner's Dictionary_).  受 _Collins COBUILD_ 的影響, 其他字典也相繼仿效 (e.g., Cambridge  Advanced Learner’s Dictionary, Macmillan English Dictionary for Advanced Learners  of American English), 把功能語言學 (Functional Linguistics) 應用到詞典中 (in lexicography).


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