# ように vs. ために



## cheshire

Flaminius, it's true that 話せるようになるために　or 話せるために　is more natural, but 話すために　is acceptable.



> ために tends to have a phrase of a volitional verb in the consequent part.


Without "tends to" this statement of yours would have been a mistake. ために　doesn't call for a volitional verb. The following verbs 信じる, できる　and 間違える　are not volitional verbs.

信じるために
～できるために
間違えないために

*Moderator Note:
This thread has been split from a related discussion here.*


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## Flaminius

Hi, I would use more candid adjectives to describe my comment you quoted.    I mean ために is often used in sentences that close with よう and other phrases that express the speaker's intention (e.g., 来年ハワイに行く*ために*今から貯金し*よう*).  This is not a correct statement as already mentioned in #5.  Forgive my non-sequitur.  

*cheshire*, I still find 日本語を話すために勉強します odd.  It will be great if some more example sentences help us understand why we arrived at different judgements.  Here are some I devised after your suggestions.

1. OK 君を信じるために証人が必要だ。
2. ? 逆上がりができるために毎日練習した。
3. ? 左右を間違えないためにサインペンで印をつけた。

For 2 and 3, replacing ために with ように makes them more acceptable (if not making ungrammatical sentences grammatical).  

What do you think of them?


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## cheshire

1: ガイドになるために勉強します。
2: ガイドになれるため[よう]に勉強します。
3：ガイド専門学校に入れるために[ように]勉強します。
4：千年杉を切るため[よう]に腕立て伏せをします。​I still think 日本語を話すために勉強します is OK, as well as Sentences 1-4. Usually words preceding ために take something worth achieving. Without 可能動詞 it sounds less acceptable, but to me it's still acceptable. The reason you find 日本語を話すために勉強します odd is probably because you know being able to speak Japanese for foreigners is not an easy thing to achieve.

In Sentence 1 I guess to say ガイドになるように勉強します。is OK, but others may find it unnatural. That would be because ように has other meanings, hence it'd be ambiguous.



> 1. OK 君を信じるために証人が必要だ。
> 2. ? 逆上がりができるために毎日練習した。
> 3. ? 左右を間違えないためにサインペンで印をつけた。
> 
> For 2 and 3, replacing ために with ように makes them more acceptable (if not making ungrammatical sentences grammatical).


What would you say to this hypothesis of mine: ために goes well with volitional verbs; ように for unvolitional verbs.

Now I'm guessing  信じる has both volitional and unvolitional usages.私はイスラム教を信じる [volitional?]
あなたは彼の話を信じましたか？[unvolitional]​


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## Flaminius

> ために goes well with volitional verbs; ように for unvolitional verbs.


Then again, why ガイドになるように勉強します is an okay sentence despite the general tendency you noted above?  I can hardly conceive becoming a guide as a natural development for someone who is studying for the guide exam.

Edit: If something happens on its own (with inherent momentum, for example), then it can be conceived as happening outside one's will.  Therefore, it is an unvolitional act.


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## cheshire

There are two types of meanings for なる.

1: unvolitional. ex. 気になる。ワシントンはいやいや大統領になった。雨になる。
2: volitional. ex. ガイドになる。[意識して勉強して「なる」から。]


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## Flaminius

Granted that:





cheshire said:


> 2: volitional. ex. ガイドになる。[意識して勉強して「なる」から。]


 
ガイドになる takes ために according to your thesis (ガイドになるため):


> ために goes well with volitional verbs; ように for unvolitional verbs.


 


> I guess to say ガイドになるように勉強します。is OK


This either contradicts with the statement above or needs a separate explanation.


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## cheshire

ガイドに*なる*ように勉強します。　unvolitional なる
ガイドに*なる*ために勉強します。volitional なる
ガイドになれるように勉強します。 なれる volitional? unvolitional?
ガイドになれるために勉強します。なれる volitional? unvolitional?

Basically I believe ために is for volitional verbs, ように for unvolitional.
I'm not confident though.


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## almostfreebird

If I replaced "勉強します" with "頑張ります" like：

ガイドになるように頑張ります。
ガイドになるために頑張ります。

It seems to me both are volitional, because people would usually
work or study hard with volition.

I myself prefer "ガイドになるように頑張ります".

"ガイドになるために頑張ります" sounds a little strong to me.


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## cheshire

Even if you try hard to be able to pass the exam, you're not certain to succeed in it. The なる in the first sentence of yours is like inshallah　（天におまかせ。神におまかせ）.

With よう I associate it with 様態(ようたい）. 様態 is more in the realm of beyond-human-power than otherwise, isn't it?


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## almostfreebird

<<The なる in the first sentence of yours is like inshallah　（天におまかせ。神におまかせ）>>

That sounds like Que Sera, Sera.
But I usually would say like "ガイドになるように頑張ります" without a feeling of 
"inshallah" unless I am talking to god. 


<<Even if you try hard to be able to pass the exam, you're not certain to succeed in it.>>

Regardless of grammatical thing, nobody knows whats going to happen in the future.


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