# square, plaza



## ThomasK

A reply in the space/place thread referred to squares (and famous squares), which was an aspect I had not thought of.

So I wondered:
- what is your name for a square/..., a large open (...) space in a town or city? And if possible, can you refer to a fairly famous one in your language?
- do you use that word or a similar one in place names/ toponymy? Can you give some well-known (...) examples?

In Dutch: mainly _plein_ (ENG plain, FRA plaine), sometimes _plaats. _
Place names: I cannot see any based on 'place'. We mainly refer to people's homes (Tie-gem,Thibaut's home), sometimes to specific aspects of the landscape (hills, forests, ...).

The Original quote from the above-mentioned thread:
Hungarian _*szombat*_, "Saturday" and *hely*, "place", referring to its status as a  market town.

[Frank Nagy] The map of Hungary is full names formed as river or connty + day of week + "place". Examples: Marosvásárhely (now Tirgu Mures in Roumania),  Kédivásárhely ( Târgu Secuiesc),  Dunszerdahely (Dumavská Stredá in Slovakia)...​


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## Penyafort

ThomasK said:


> - what is your name for a square/..., a large open (...) space in a town or city? And if possible, can you refer to a fairly famous one in your language?



In *Catalan*, the word for a square is *plaça *['plasə], a cognate to the one used in the other Romance languages.

Most famous one: *Plaça Catalunya*, the 'heart' of Barcelona.



ThomasK said:


> - do you use that word or a similar one in place names/ toponymy? Can you give some well-known (...) examples?
> 
> In Dutch: mainly _plein_ (ENG plain, FRA plaine), sometimes _plaats._



No, _plaça _is not used in non-urban toponomy.

*Plana*, however, the Catalan equivalent to English _plain_, is used extensively, probably ranking as one of the most commonly used words in toponomy.


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## apmoy70

Greek:

The word for _square_ is *«πλατεία»* [plaˈti.a] (fem.) < Classical adj. *«πλατύς, -τεῖα/τέα, -τύ» plătús* (masc.), *plăteî̯ă/plătéă* (fem.), *plătú* (neut.) --> _wide, broad, flat, level_ (PIE *pleth₂- _broad_ cf Skt. पृथु (pr̥thu), _broad_, Av. pərəθu- _wide, broad_, Hitt. paltana- _shoulder blade_, Proto-Slavic *pleťe, _shoulder_ > Rus. плечо; the Latin platea is borrowed from Greek).
*
«Πλατεῖα»* was a nominalized adj. in ancient Greek, that modified the (usually omitted) fem. noun *«ὁδός» hŏdós* --> _road, street, ride, journey, march_.
The most famous «πλατεῖα» in ancient Greece was the small city of *«Πλαταιαί» Plătai̯aí̯* (Eng. Plataea) where the final battle of the 2nd Greco-Persian war took place.
«Πλαταιαί» means either _wide plains_, or _flat fields_, and it's the plural of the fem. *«πλάταιᾱ» plắtai̯ā*, the local (Boeotian) form of «πλατεῖα».

In MoGr it's not used in non-urban toponymy.

Most famous squares: Syntagma Square (i.e. Constitution sq) in down-town Athens, opposite the Greek Parliament building where all the demonstrations take place, and Aristotelous Square (i.e. Aristotle's sq) in Thessalonika named after the philosopher Aristotle.


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## ThomasK

Penyafort said:


> In *Catalan*, ... --- No, _plaça _is not used in non-urban toponomy.
> 
> *Plana*, however, the Catalan equivalent to English _plain_, is used extensively, probably ranking as one of the most commonly used words in toponomy.


 Do you mean as '... della Plana' (of the Great Plain)?


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## ilocas2

Croatian:

*trg* - originally meant market

there are many derived words with the market meaning
_tržnica_ - market (place with stalls)
_tržište_ - market (other meanings)
_trgovina_ - trade; shop
_trgovati_ - to trade with
...

I think the most famous square in Croatia is Trg bana Jelačića (square of ban Jelačić) in Zagreb.

It's not in toponyms.


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## ThomasK

Interesting. But then: do your toponyms refer to aspects of places then? (I don't want a lot of comment, just some of idea of what things you refer to then in your toponyms...)

@Apmoy: I can imagine /plateias/ are typical of urban areas, yet about every village around here had something like a plaatse (dialectal form), often a square around the church, often turned into a parking space...


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> ...
> 
> @Apmoy: I can imagine /plateias/ are typical of urban areas, yet about every village around here had something like a plaatse (dialectal form), often a square around the church, often turned into a parking space...


That's true, we have that too, the open space either in the centre of the village/town, or in front of the central church, is a *«πλατεία»* often with a hundred-year-old plane tree in the middle:
The «πλατεία» at the village of Makrinitsa on mount Pelion.
The «πλατεία» at the village of Milies again on mount Pelion.


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## ThomasK

ONe last question: did that space have a specific function - like a market square, or a meeting-place simply, or a place where the poor were allowed to let their sheep graze?


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## apmoy70

Like an ancient agora/forum?
It was initially a meeting place, nowadays the space is usually occupied by tables and chairs of coffee shops (cafes) or of tavernas/restaurants


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## bibax

Czech:

square, circus: *náměstí* < prefix *na-* + *město* (= city, town), _město_ itself is derived from _místo_ (OCz. _miesto_) = place.

Staroměstské náměstí = Old City/Town Square;
Václavské náměstí = St. Wenceslaus (patron of Bohemia) Square; former name _Koňský trh _(Horse Market);
Karlovo náměstí = Charles (Roman emperor) Square; former name _Dobytčí trh _(Cattle Market);

As a placename I know only Náměšť. (two cities/towns).

obsolete *rynk* or *rynek*, probably derived from Germ. der Ring:
Staroměstský rynek = Staroměstské náměstí;

For the villages:

*náves* < prefix *na-* + *ves* (= village);

*Návsí* : a village in Czech Silesia.


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## ThomasK

@bibax: could you explain why the _na_- is added if the word as such means city, town?

@apmoy: of course, how come I did not think of that? Agora, forum, of course. But then what is their function? I had associated both with public places - and philosophers or politicians - but... I read somewhere that the agora was mainly used for commercial functions, whereas a forum was both political and religious. Would you agree? Thanks again!


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## bibax

^^The preposition (and also prefix) *na* means _on_ (and often also _in_), e.g. na stole (on the table), na Aljašce (in Alaska), etc.

The noun *náměstí* evolved from the prepositional expression *na městě* (on the city/town).

Generally *ná*-_root_-*í* is a specific space related to the root noun.

There are some other examples:

*dvůr* (yard) > na dvoře (on the yard) > *nádvoří* (a bigger yard esp. inside a castle, quadrangle; the Prague castle has several _nádvoří_);
*dráha* (track, trajectory) > na dráze (on the [railway] track) > *nádraží* (railway station, e.g. _Slavkovské nádraží_ = _gare d'Austerlitz_ in Paris);
*břeh* (bank) > na břehu (on the bank) > *nábřeží* (quai, e.g. the famous _Zlatnické nábřeží 36_ = _36, quai des Orfèvres_);


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## Ífaradà

In Norwegian:

*Torg* - open area which usually includes some sort of economic acitivity etc. Stems from old Norse which again might have taken the word from old Russian. Makes sense as I see the Croatian word is strikingly similar: *trg.* Could be a coincidence though.

Jernbanetorget (large area in the city sentre of Oslo with railway, bus and metro infrastructure).
Fisketorget i Bergen (Bergen fish market).

*Plass* is used as a synonym as well.


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## bibax

Protoslavic **tъrgъ* < *tŭrgŭ (ъ = hard yer < short ŭ) has unclear origin; nowadays the word is Panslavic, used also in Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian.

- probably related to the city names Tergeste (Trieste), Opitergium (Oderzo) in Italy and Turku in Finland;

Czech also used the noun *trh* (market) for the town squares (now _náměstí_). However most _trh_'s were renamed to _náměstí'_s, e.g. the Wenceslas Square in Prague renamed from the former name Koňský trh (Horse Market). There are some exceptions: Ovocný trh (Fruit Market) and Uhelný trh (Coal Market), rather small squares in Old City, Prague.

And for completeness, during the WWII the official names used *Platz* as German was the first official language. For example, the former Senný trh (Hay Market, a short way from Horse Market, of course) was _"Heuwaagsplatz - Senovážné náměstí"_ (hay-weighing).


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## AndrasBP

According to v


Ífaradà said:


> *Torg* - open area which usually includes some sort of economic acitivity etc. Stems from old Norse which again might have taken the word from old Russian. Makes sense as I see the Croatian word is strikingly similar: *trg.* Could be a coincidence though.


According to various sources, the Old Norse word is indeed a borrowing from Old East Slavic.

As mentioned in the opening post, the Hungarian word _*hely *_(place) appears in a number of place names, usually market towns.

The term for _square _is *tér*, an old Hungarian word. A famous square in Budapest is _Kossuth tér_, next to the Parliament Building. 
The word sometimes appears as _*tere*_, which is the genitive case: Hősök tere - Heroes' Square


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## ThomasK

Very interesting contributions, thanks. What necessitated/ triggered/... the change away from ProtoSlavic?


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## ilocas2

Upper Sorbian:

*naměsto* - similar to Czech


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## ilocas2

other known squares in Budapest:

Moszkva tér - Moscow square
Kálvin tér - Calvin square
Oktogon - Octogon
Bosnyák tér - Bosnian square


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## AndrasBP

ilocas2 said:


> Moszkva tér - Moscow square


The name "Moszkva tér" doesn't exist anymore, the square got back its pre-Communist name, _Széll Kálmán tér_, in 2011.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Széll_Kálmán_tér


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## ilocas2

And what name is used by people in Budapest in the everyday life?


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## Penyafort

ThomasK said:


> Do you mean as '... della Plana' (of the Great Plain)?



That can be seen, for instance, in the name of the town and province *Castelló de la Plana* ("Little Castle of the Plain"), so called because it is in the historical Valencian region of *La Plana*, the Plain.

Most commonly, you find La Plana de ..., as in *La Plana de Vic* ("The Plain of Vic"), *La Plana del Rosselló* ("The Plain of the Roussillon"), etc., towns or historical areas placed along the several plains found in between the many mountainous areas.

It can also be found in compounds as *Vilaplana *("Plaintown")

There is the also very common masculine form, *Pla*, which tends to refer to smaller plains.


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## AndrasBP

ilocas2 said:


> And what name is used by people in Budapest in the everyday life?


Both. It depends on age and political views.


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## ilocas2

Slovak: *námestie*

I think that Slovakia doesn't have any really iconic square.


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## ThomasK

And the Red Square in Moscow? Anyone?


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## bibax

Czech distinguishes _*náměstí*_ (město = city/town) and _*náves/návsí*_ (ves = village).

Russian has only *пло́щадь* (pl*o*shchaď).
It also means _'area'_ in geometric sense, measured in sqr meters (in Czech _plocha_, related to площадь, adj. _plochý_ = flat, plane).

Красная площадь = Red Square = Rudé náměstí;
площадь круга = area of the circle = plocha kruhu;
площадь площади  = area [in m²] of the [city/village] square = plocha náměstí/návsi;

площадь Красной площади: 24 750 м² = area of the Red Square: 24 750 m²;


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot! But then площадь площади  is something like plocha plochadi... It is not clear to you either, you mean?


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## bibax

No, I meant that in Russian the expression "the area (in m²) of the city square" uses two identical nouns (площадь площади) which is quite strange (like "the area [m²] of the area"  in English).


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## ThomasK

Quite strange indeed. But OK, every language has its...


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## franknagy

ilocas2 said:


> other known squares in Budapest:
> 
> Moszkva tér - Moscow square
> Kálvin tér - Calvin square
> Oktogon - Octogon
> Bosnyák tér - Bosnian square


Sometimes the "tér" has possesive suffix
Harminckettesek tere =
32th division.
Rózsák tere = Square of roses.


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## Määränpää

Finnish:

_tori_ - the same as the Croatian "trg" and the Norwegian "torg", a loanword, originally a marketplace
_aukio_ - a neologism(?) from a Fenno-Ugric root, meaning an open area
The biggest and most famous squares in Finland have the word "tori" in their names, for example _Senaatintori_ ("Senate Square") in Helsinki. However, I can only remember three foreign squares that are called "tori" in Finnish, all located in the neighbouring countries: _Punainen tori_ (Красная площадь, Moscow), _Sergelin tori_ (Sergels torg, Stockholm), _Raatihuoneentori_ (Raekoja plats, Tallinn).

Some smaller squares in Finland have the word "aukio" in their names. The word "aukio" also seems to be preferred in the translated names of foreign squares, especially ad hoc translations: _Taivaallisen rauhan aukio_ (天安门广场, Beijing), _Trafalgarin aukio_ (Trafalgar Square, London), _Concorden aukio_ (Place de la Concorde, Paris).


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## SuperXW

Chinese:
Traditional writing: 廣場
Simplified writing: 广场 
The first character means "wide" and the second means "place/area".


ThomasK said:


> - what is your name for a square/..., a large open (...) space in a town or city? And if possible, can you refer to a fairly famous one in your language?
> - do you use that word or a similar one in place names/ toponymy? Can you give some well-known (...) examples?


Yes and yes. For example, 天安門廣場 Tiananmen Square, 人民廣場 People's Square...
Time Square is translated as 時代廣場.
Some tall office buildings also gave themselves fancy names such as "... Square", although they are just buildings.


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> ... Hungarian _*szombat*_, "Saturday" and *hely*, "place", referring to its status as a  market town.
> [Frank Nagy] The map of Hungary is full names formed as river or connty + day of week + "place". Examples: Marosvásárhely (now Tirgu Mures in Roumania),  Kédivásárhely ( Târgu Secuiesc),  Dun*a*szerdahely (Duma*j*ská Streda in Slovakia)...​


I only would like to explain the difference between the terms  *tér* and *hely*. _*Tér*_ substantially means _space/"spacious place"/(Sp.)espacio/plaza, etc..._, while *hely* means _place_ in the sense of Lat. _locus_, It. _luogo_, Sp. _lugar_.

Thus, any _square/(Sp.)plaza/(It.)piazza_ in a town is _*tér*_.

The toponym _Marosvásárhely_ (_Maros-vásár-*hely*_) literally means _Maros-market-place_, i.e. a "place (not square) upon the river Maros where markets are held".

The toponym _Dunaszerdahely_ (_Duna-szerda-*hely*_) literally means_ Danube-Wednesday-place (not square)_ which is practically a shortened form for "A place upon the river Danube where the markets are held on Wednesday"

Furthermore, there are many toponyms that contain _Új*hely*_ in its name. This kind of names corresponds to _Villa Nova _(_Nuova, Nueva, _etc ...) in the Romance speaking area and to the German _Neustadt_ and also to the Slavic _Novgorod, Nové Město, *Novomesto, etc ..._


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