# Miss or Mrs or Ms ?



## andersxman

<< This is a composite thread.  All threads on the same subject have been merged. >>



I write many emails in english, and therefore I would like to be certain that I address fx. divorced women in a correct manner. How should I address a women who's had a divorce? Ms + maiden name? Or Mrs + what? And further, what is more correct: putting a dot after "ms." and "mrs." or writing "ms" and "mrs"

Thank you very much


----------



## Aupick

The choice between 'Ms' and 'Mrs' is a personal one that depends on how the woman in question feels. As much as possible, you should try to copy what she does. However, if you don't know, I'd vote for 'Ms' (with either the maiden name or the married name).

The choice between maiden name and ex-married name depends on whether or not the woman has changed her name since her divorce. If you don't have this information (and can't find it out), I'd vote for using the married name since if you're wrong, it would just be considered that you're out of date. Being wrong the other way round is presumptuous. If the woman has been divorced for a while, you don't really have an excuse for not knowing.

Note that these are separate questions, really. Ms replaces both Mrs and Miss and was an attempt to do away with the sexist obsession with specifying a woman's marital status. It's not really a choice between Mrs + married name and Ms + maiden name. You could use Ms with both maiden and married names. Otherwise you would use Mrs with the married name and (in theory) Miss with the maiden name. Miss is really condescending, though, and I recommend avoiding it altogether.

Finally, American English tends to use dots (Mrs. and Ms.) where British English doesn't (Mrs and Ms), but these are not strict rules.


----------



## Kelly B

Hello,
In the US at least, a divorced woman generally retains the last name she used before the divorce, whether that was her (ex) husband's name or her maiden name, until/unless she remarries later. Ms. is usually a safe choice here. We use the period; in the UK it is not used.


----------



## lsp

andersxman said:
			
		

> I write many emails in english, and therefore I would like to be certain that I address fx. divorced women in a correct manner. How should I address a women who's had a divorce? Ms + maiden name? Or Mrs + what? And further, what is more correct: putting a dot after "ms." and "mrs." or writing "ms" and "mrs"
> 
> Thank you very much


You hit on one of the very reasons for the creation of Ms in the first place. Married, single, divorced - why is it anyone's business for a woman more than for a man, and how is one supposed to know, anyway? Unless you have specific information on her preferences, Ms is the accepted and expected greeting (with or without the punctuation - there's another whole thread on that).


----------



## cuchuflete

Kelly B said:
			
		

> Hello,
> In the US at least, a divorced woman *generally* retains the last name she used before the divorce, whether that was her (ex) husband's name or her maiden name, until/unless she remarries later.



Kelly B may be right about this, but in my limited experience, it seems that about half the divorced women I know keep...for a while at least...the husband's last name, if they used it while married, and the other half resume use of their maiden name.  

This may be more sociological than linguistic speculation, but I think those women who keep the husband's last name most are those with young children.  It can be fairly confusing to school administrators to receive a phone call..."Hello, this is Martha Moore, mother of Tiffany Humperdinck, in Ms O'Henry's first grade class..."


----------



## Brioche

Some women are happy with Ms and some are not.

Some married women, particularly older women, dislike Ms intensely.

Some divorced women stay Mrs Brown.
But some use Ms Brown, some go back to Miss Smith, some to Ms Smith.

The only way to know for sure is to make discrete enquiries.

In UK, if an abbreviation is formed from the first and last letter(s) of a word, don't use a dot. Write Ms  Mr  Mrs
Doctor = Dr   ft = foot
but February = Feb.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *lsp*
> Unless you have specific information on her preferences, Ms is the accepted and expected greeting


I would agree with everything said so far, but have one _minor_ addition. One might consider me a traditionalist, but I still believe it appropriate to use "Miss" when addressing formal correspondence to a young girl still living with her parents (high school age or below.) For example, if I were inviting someone to my wedding, I would address the invitation to "Miss Susan Jones," not "Ms."


----------



## Kräuter_Fee

I have a big question!!!

If Ms is Miss... then... how do you spell Mrs?????


----------



## cuchuflete

Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> I have a big question!!!
> 
> If Ms is Miss... then... how do you spell Mrs?????



Ah, if only life were so logical!  Ms is, I think, a word rather than an abbreviation.  Is there an abbreviation for 'miss'?

I think Ms means the collective of Mrs. and Miss. Or the absence of both, as Ms has no connotation regarding marital status, other than that of the user to say it's immaterial and/or none of your business.


----------



## Kräuter_Fee

Really? Gosh... 13 years learning English and till today I thought Ms was the abbreviation of miss.

And about Mrs... isn't there a way to write that? Mississ or something like that?


----------



## Aupick

Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> I have a big question!!!
> 
> If Ms is Miss... then... how do you spell Mrs?????


In fact Miss and Mrs were both (originally) abbreviations for Mistress. For some reason, Miss came to be used for unmarried women and Mrs for married women. It's a (not uncommon) mistake to think that Ms stands for Miss, but it really stands for both, in order to avoid commenting on marital status, as various posts have said. At this point all three are words in their own right, not abbreviations. As is Mr, which should _not_ be written out as Mister. Mr was originally an abbreviation for Master.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *Kräuter_Fee*
> I have a big question!!!
> 
> If Ms is Miss... then... how do you spell Mrs?????[/b]



I have seen Mrs spelled out as "missus," but *only* in literary dialog, when an author wanted to emphasize a particular character's pronunciation of the word.

Here is a quick "how to" guide:

Miss - young girl or woman under 18(?) still living with her parents
Ms - young woman out of the home who is either single, or married
Mrs - married woman - typically for social correspondence

Some women, especially those who married after having established a career, choose to keep their maiden names for their work correspondence, and use their married names for social correspondence.

Others choose to hyphenate, such as Ms Susan Smith-Jones

I can say that in 99% of any business correspondence I write, I use "Ms," regardless of whether the person to whom I'm writing is married. 

For _formal_ _social_ correspondence (wedding invitations), I would use Mrs., but then I would also use her husband's name, such as: Mrs. Brandon Jones.


----------



## emma42

Hi.  You would never write "mississ".  Sometimes you will read "Missus", but this would be used in, say, a novel using informal/working class speech "Alright, mate, how's the Missus today?"  Generally, though, it is always "Mrs".  "Mrs" is actually an abbreviation of "Mistress" - see "Mistress Quickly" in Shakespeare (Merry Wives of Windsor?  Henry V?).  Hope I have not confused you more.


----------



## cuchuflete

Kräuter_Fee said:
			
		

> Really? Gosh... 13 years learning English and till today I thought Ms was the abbreviation of miss.
> 
> And about Mrs... isn't there a way to write that? Mississ or something like that?



for fun... 





> *Acronym(s)* *Definition(s)* *Info* *MS* *Combination of Miss and Mrs. (title of address for women)*
> *MS* *Mad Scientist*
> *MS* *Magestorm (game)*
> *MS* *Maggie Simpson*
> *MS* *Magical Sword (Legend of Zelda game)* *
> MS* *Manta Sonica (band)*
> *MS* *Maple Story (computer game)* http://slang.acronymfinder.com/images/go.gif
> *MS* *Marge Simpson* *
> MS* *Mario Sunshine (video game)* *
> MS* *Martin Scorsese (film director)*
> *MS* *Marus Seru (Everquest)*
> *MS* *Master Shake (cartoon character)*
> *MS* *Master Sword (Legend of Zelda Game)*
> *MS* *Maybe So*
> http://slang.acronymfinder.com/images/go.gif *MS* *Metal Slug (game)*
> *MS* *Metal Sonic (gaming character)*
> *MS* *Michael Schumacher (F1 driver)* http://slang.acronymfinder.com/images/go.gif
> *MS* *Michael Shanks (actor)*
> *MS* *Michele Soavi (film director)*
> *MS* *MirrorSoft (former game maker)* *Next page of*


http://slang.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?acronym=ms&String=exact&page=1

There were hundreds.  My dictionaries say that Miss comes from Mistress, and is thus already an abbreviation, and that Ms. is a word in its own right as well as an abbreviation [M(ISS + MR)S].


----------



## modgirl

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> It can be fairly confusing to school administrators to receive a phone call..."Hello, this is Martha Moore, mother of Tiffany Humperdinck, in Ms O'Henry's first grade class..."


 
In the year 2005, I strongly disagree. Blended families are nearly the norm, unfortunately. Many women who remarry do take their new husbands' names, yet the children retain whatever surnames they originally had. Also, many women do not change their names upon marriage, and thus children may have their fathers' last names or a hyphenated surname or possibly even the mother's surname only. The combinations are nearly endless!

Quite frankly, I'd say it's nearly a 50/50 chance that a child will have his mother's surname today.


----------



## panjandrum

The general rule in official letters - as far as I recall - is to use Miss up to school-leaving then Ms unless there is clear evidence that Miss or Mrs is preferred.
Why?
Ms is acknowledged by many as an "I'm not sure" as well as being a deliberate choice.
A Ms accidentally referred to as Miss or Mrs is, generally, more vociferous than a Miss or Mrs accidentally referred to as Ms.

I agree with modgirl about the diversity of surnames - teachers these days are well-used to this and most are very careful indeed not to assume anything about surnames or family circumstances (based on personal research during WMPG's first year at school ).

Footnote - BE would not generally put a full stop after Feb for February - but it seems that OzE might (see Brioche's post, above).


----------



## Kräuter_Fee

Thank you for your answers!

One last question... Ms und Miss are pronounced in the same way, right?


----------



## Rach404

I don't know about other people, but I have always said, and have always heard other people say, Ms pronounced with a kind of "zz" sound at the end....


----------



## emma42

Yes, me too.  I pronounce "Ms" - "muzz".


----------



## Isotta

emma42 said:
			
		

> Yes, me too. I pronounce "Ms" - "muzz".


 
I say "mizz" for "Ms." Maybe that's American.

Zot.


----------



## emma42

Yes, maybe, although thinking about it, I would not be taken aback by that pronunciation.  I think I may have heard it here in UK.


----------



## Isotta

Yes, it is rather convenient if you don't know if the woman is married, as they sound almost the same if you speak quickly enough.

Isotta.


----------



## Kräuter_Fee

Wow, I'm surprised, thanks for your answers, I won't forget this


----------



## yamahasixstring

Brioche said:
			
		

> Some women are happy with Ms and some are not.
> 
> Some married women, particularly older women, dislike Ms intensely.
> 
> Some divorced women stay Mrs Brown.
> But some use Ms Brown, some go back to Miss Smith, some to Ms Smith.
> 
> The only way to know for sure is to make discrete enquiries.
> 
> In UK, if an abbreviation is formed from the first and last letter(s) of a word, don't use a dot. Write Ms Mr Mrs
> Doctor = Dr ft = foot
> but February = Feb.


 
Actually, in American English, one must use a period to denote the abbreviation of titles. 

To restate what has already been said, though perhaps more formally:
_*Usage Note: *_Many of us think of _Ms._ or _Ms_ as a fairly recent invention of the women's movement, but in fact the term was first suggested as a convenience to writers of business letters by such publications as the _Bulletin of the American Business Writing Association_ (1951) and _The Simplified Letter,_ issued by the National Office Management Association (1952). _Ms._ is now widely used in both professional and social contexts. As a courtesy title _Ms._ serves exactly the same function that _Mr._ does for men, and like _Mr._ it may be used with a last name alone or with a full name. Furthermore, _Ms._ is correct regardless of a woman's marital status, thus relegating that information to the realm of private life, where many feel it belongs anyway. 
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.​


----------



## cuchuflete

Greetings Yamahasixtring,
Welcome to the forums.
Please have a look at the forum rules in FAQ, above and to your left.  Please note carefully the rules for quoting from copyrighted sources.  I lopped off a line from your post to make it compliant.

thanks,
Cuchuflete


----------



## yamahasixstring

Thank you. I did read those. I must have missed something. I thought I delete all the links and such. I assume, after reading the rules again, that the quote was too long. In any case, sorry I missed it.


----------



## modgirl

Brioche said:
			
		

> The only way to know for sure is to make discrete enquiries.


 
I only noticed this when someone else quoted this post, but I believe the word that you want is *discreet*.


*Discrete* means separate and distinct.  


*Discreet* means prudent; to be careful with what one says or does; keeping silent and preserving confidences when necessary.


----------



## daviesri

The use of Ms. was pushed by the women movement of the 70's.  They did not like the fact that whether they were married or not men were Mr.   Women on the other hand had "Miss" for unmarried and "Mrs." for married.   The feminist started pushing "Ms." as a replacement for Miss and Mrs.  

I have never known a woman who is a Miss to be offended by Ms.
I have known quite a few women that were offended by Ms. when they were a Mrs.


----------



## cuchuflete

Is it time to move this to the culture forum, as we are past language, and into discrete arenas?


----------



## yamahasixstring

daviesri said:
			
		

> The use of Ms. was pushed by the women movement of the 70's. They did not like the fact that whether they were married or not men were Mr. Women on the other hand had "Miss" for unmarried and "Mrs." for married. The feminist started pushing "Ms." as a replacement for Miss and Mrs.
> 
> I have never known a woman who is a Miss to be offended by Ms.
> I have known quite a few women that were offended by Ms. when they were a Mrs.


 
Two of the best teachers I've ever had married eachother, and she took his last name, but prefers to be referred to as Ms. Curry. She corrects you if you call her Mrs. Curry.


----------



## modgirl

yamahasixstring said:
			
		

> Two of the best teachers I've ever had married eachother, and she took his last name, but prefers to be referred to as Ms. Curry. She corrects you if you call her Mrs. Curry.


 
Here's the rule: always call a woman by her preferred title.

Easy! However, here's the problem that I frequently encounter: I'm writing a business letter to Jane Smith. If she lives in France, it's easy: Madame Smith. In Italy: Senora Smith. However, in the US, I have no idea what title Jane uses. In that case, I do use *Ms*. If I receive a reply from Mrs Jane Smith, then obviously, I employ Mrs from that point onward. The only time I've ever encountered adults who use *Miss* is in England.

Very generally, I would use *Ms* in the US when a title is not known. If the person has an opinion strong enough to prefer another title, she'll probably let you know.


----------



## panjandrum

I have been wondering why this is not a problem for me.  I think I know the answer.  I very rarely write letters to strange women 

So, either I know their preference  or I know them well enough to address them by their forename in the Dear Mavis part of the letter - and the envelope is addressed to Mavis Surname.

The increasing use of e-mail in formal communication, and the increasing informality of formal communication combine to have eliminated this problem for me.

Apart from this personal solution, my general solution (#16) is the same as modgirl's.


----------



## roniy

Are the pronunciations correct :
Ms-mis
Miss -mis
Mrs-missis 
????
Thanks.


----------



## elroy

roniy said:
			
		

> Are the pronunciations correct :
> Ms-mis
> Miss -mis
> Mrs-missis
> ????
> Thanks.


 
Ms. - mizz
Miss - miss
Mrs - missez


----------



## roniy

elroy said:
			
		

> Ms. - mizz
> Miss - miss
> Mrs - missez


 
I got you 
Thanks.


----------



## daviesri

Modgirl's approach is probably the best way to handle the issue with Ms, Miss and Mrs.


----------



## mattison518

What is the difference between Ms. and Mrs.?? Is one more formal, or do they mean different things?  Or is it neither of those??

Thankyou,


----------



## You little ripper!

Mattison, you may want to check this out.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861631613
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/Mrs.html


----------



## TrentinaNE

modgirl said:
			
		

> Here's the rule: always call a woman by her preferred title.


Sage advice. Though I've been married for years, I am and always have been Ms. My Name, professionally, socially, and metaphysically.  I have elegant return address labels that clearly state: Ms. My Name, Mr. His Name, our address. Yet every Christmas we still receive cards addressed to Mr. and Mrs. His Name from people who think they're being "socially proper" when in fact they're disregarding my clearly expressed choice.

Cheers,
Elizabeth


----------



## maxiogee

But before one gets to know her preferred title one often has cause to address her.
Once, when working in a shop, I was coming back into the store when I realised that a customer was having a heated discussion with one of my staff. I approached him from the front of the counter and, with a nod to my colleague, said "Excuse me, sir, I'm the manager, may I help you?" He went ballistic and shouted "Don't 'sir' me!"
I was dumbstruck - how did he propose I address him? None of us knew his name.


----------



## TrentinaNE

modgirl said:
			
		

> Very generally, I would use *Ms* in the US when a title is not known. If the person has an opinion strong enough to prefer another title, she'll probably let you know.





			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> I approached him from the front of the counter and, with a nod to my colleague, said "Excuse me, sir, I'm the manager, may I help you?" He went ballistic and shouted "Don't 'sir' me!"


That's certainly an extreme version of modgirl's scenario. My conclusion: All bets are off when dealing with lunatics.  

Elizabeth


----------



## haji

What should we call a lady when we do not know her marrital status instead of Miss X and Mrs. X?


----------



## maxiogee

In terms of addressing her - Ma'am is often used (more often than madam) and seems to be one of the less-objected-to solutions to this thorny problem. (Madam does seem to be more objectionable to many people - both those who are addressed as such, and often those who are instructed by empoloyers to use this term.)
In terms of speaking or writing about her - 'a woman', 'Ms X' and 'Jane X' are solutions which seem popular.


----------



## haji

How should we start a letter to a lady except Dear Madam when you do not know her marriage statues?Dear Miss X or Mrs. X?


----------



## alitza

Actually, it's "Dear Ms." , which goes for both married and single ladies and it's politically correct, as well.


----------



## Tabac

alitza said:


> Actually, it's "Dear Ms." , which goes for both married and single ladies and it's politically correct, as well.


*For me, a male, this is one of the greatest results of the "women's liberation" movement. The presumed need to differentiate between titles depending on a woman's marital status was ridiculous. It had been years since the same distinction was made between "mister" and "master" [difference was one of age rather than marital status].*


----------



## haji

alitza said:


> Actually, it's "Dear Ms." , which goes for both married and single ladies and it's politically correct, as well.


I learnt this point and am going to use in letters.However what shall we say in conversations except Madam ?How do you pronounce Ms. X?


----------



## Dimcl

haji said:


> I learnt this point and am going to use in letters.However what shall we say in conversations except Madam ?How do you pronounce Ms. X?


 
It's pronounced "Mizz".


----------



## haji

Tabac said:


> *For me, a male, this is one of the greatest results of the "women's liberation" movement. The presumed need to differentiate between titles depending on a woman's marital status was ridiculous. It had been years since the same distinction was made between "mister" and "master" [difference was one of age rather than marital status].*


Do you mean that in order to avoid differentiating between titles we shall always Miss or always Mrs. for calling ladies if you do not use "Madam"?


----------



## Dimcl

haji said:


> Do you mean that in order to avoid differentiating between titles we shall always Miss or always Mrs. for calling ladies if you do not use "Madam"?


 
No, what Tabac is saying that "Ms." is one of the greatest accomplishments of the "women's lib" movement and that it's ridiculous to "label" women with a title depending on their marital status.  Men are only "Mr." so why should women be "labelled"?  Accordingly, "Ms." is what most women prefer (although elderly ladies may be an exception!).


----------



## haji

I found this forum very useful and effective.Thank you all


----------



## Brioche

alitza said:


> Actually, it's "Dear Ms." , which goes for both married and single ladies and it's politically correct, as well.


 
And because it is so PC, it is offensive to some women.

Some women just love being called Ms - they are not being "judged" by their marital status.
Some women just hate it - they don't want to be lumped in with the "hairy-legged, boiler-suited, lesbian man-haters".

It's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" things.

I recall that a politician wrote to my mother, canvassing her vote - one of those faux-personal letters produced by a computer and a mailing list.
It was addressed to Ms., and the saluation was Dear <first-name>. 
That ensured she voted for the other chap!


----------



## panjandrum

Here, from a post in September last year, is a pragmatic solution.
It is based on this inequality:
The rage of a Ms addressed as Mrs or Miss >>> The rage of a Mrs or Miss addressed as Ms



modgirl said:


> Here's the rule: always call a woman by her preferred title.
> 
> Easy! However, here's the problem that I frequently encounter: I'm writing a business letter to Jane Smith. If she lives in France, it's easy: Madame Smith. In Italy: Senora Smith. However, in the US, I have no idea what title Jane uses. In that case, I do use *Ms*. If I receive a reply from Mrs Jane Smith, then obviously, I employ Mrs from that point onward. The only time I've ever encountered adults who use *Miss* is in England.
> 
> Very generally, I would use *Ms* in the US when a title is not known. If the person has an opinion strong enough to prefer another title, she'll probably let you know.


----------



## Brioche

panjandrum said:


> Here, from a post in September last year, is a pragmatic solution.
> It is based on this inequality:
> The rage of a Ms addressed as Mrs or Miss >>> The rage of a Mrs or Miss addressed as Ms


 
Just shows that a Miss or Mrs is likely to be more mature and/or more polite that a Ms.


----------



## Nunty

Some years ago, there was also the possibility of using both names and no courtesy title at the begining of a letter to an unknown woman: *Dear Mavis Hockeypuck,*

Is this no longer done?


----------



## natasha2000

Nun-Translator said:


> Some years ago, there was also the possibility of using both names and no courtesy title at the begining of a letter to an unknown woman: *Dear Mavis Hockeypuck,*
> 
> Is this no longer done?


 
My boss does it, when he is not sure about the sex of the person to whom he writes. We have a lot of correspondence with people from South Korea and if you don't know, it is impossible to get right the sex of the person. I started to do the same after I had discovered that a person who I addressed as a Mr. for more than a year is actually - a woman!


----------



## kordos

I am writing an official email to my colleague, but do not know if she is Mrs. or Ms.
Can anyone help?


----------



## Ecossaise

Us Ms.   Less likely to cause offence if she's unmarried.


----------



## kordos

Thanks, I will do.


----------



## bfabien

If you mean that you don't know if she's married, then you should use Ms., which is does not bear any reference to the marital status.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms.


----------



## mplsray

bfabien said:


> If you mean that you don't know if she's married, then you should use Ms., which is does not bear any reference to the marital status.
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms.


 
That article confuses two different abbreviations: (1) _Ms._ as an abbreviation for _Mistress,_ first used in the 18th century and (2) _Ms._ as a substitute for _Mrs._ and _Miss._ The former was a pretty straightforward abbreviation. The etymology given for the latter in _Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary_, 11th ed., is "probably blend of _Miss_ and _Mrs._" and the dictionary dates that abbreviation to 1949. It was used in business correspondence when it was known that the recipient was a woman but the sender did not know the woman's marital status. I learned to use it in this manner when I took a typing class in high school.


----------



## winklepicker

mplsray said:


> _Ms._ as an abbreviation for _Mistress_


 
That's a new one on me, mplsray. _Mrs_, yes - even _Miss_. But _Ms_ for _Mistress_ I never heard.

Do you have a source?


----------



## panjandrum

The Wiki article is wrong on the dates and origins for Ms (too ).


> *1932* _N.Y. Times_ 29 May III. 2/8 In addressing by letter a woman whose marital status is in doubt, should one write ‘M's’ or ‘Miss’?
> *1949* M. PEI _Story of Lang._ I. viii. 79 Feminists..have often proposed that the two present-day titles be merged into..‘Miss’ (to be written ‘Ms.’), with a plural ‘Misses’ (written ‘Mss.’).
> *1952* _Simplified Let._ (National Office Managem. Assoc., Philadelphia) Jan. 4 Use abbreviation Ms. for _all women_ addressees. This modern style solves an age-old problem.


OED


----------



## Tabac

Dimcl said:


> No, what Tabac is saying that "Ms." is one of the greatest accomplishments of the "women's lib" movement and that it's ridiculous to "label" women with a title depending on their marital status. Men are only "Mr." so why should women be "labelled"? Accordingly, "Ms." is what most women prefer (although elderly ladies may be an exception!).


Thanks, Dimcl!!!  I forgot to add the essential in my message:  *Ms. *


----------



## mplsray

winklepicker said:


> That's a new one on me, mplsray. _Mrs_, yes - even _Miss_. But _Ms_ for _Mistress_ I never heard.
> 
> Do you have a source?


 
Yes, the very Wikipedia article I was criticizing in my post. That article is the first and only source I've read which says that _Mistress_ was sometimes abbreviated _Ms._ There's nothing particularly surprising about it, however, especially since it's said to have been sporadically used since the 18th century, and rules for abbreviating were much looser back then. 

The problem I have with the article is that it states that _Ms._ was not invented by modern feminists, but then goes on to give as supposed evidence for this that _Ms._ was once used for _Mistress._ But that's not the same _Ms._ as the one which is the main subject of this thread, so the argument amounts to a non sequitur.

(The use of _Ms._ for _Mistress_ must have been a particularly obscure one, since it's not shown in The Century Dictionary of 1895, a very comprehensive dictionary for its time.)


----------



## winklepicker

mplsray said:


> Yes, the very Wikipedia article I was criticizing in my post. That article is the first and only source I've read which says that _Mistress_ was sometimes abbreviated _Ms._ There's nothing particularly surprising about it, however, especially since it's said to have been sporadically used since the 18th century, and rules for abbreviating were much looser back then.
> 
> The problem I have with the article is that it states that _Ms._ was not invented by modern feminists, but then goes on to give as supposed evidence for this that _Ms._ was once used for _Mistress._ But that's not the same _Ms._ as the one which is the main subject of this thread, so the argument amounts to a non sequitur.
> 
> (The use of _Ms._ for _Mistress_ must have been a particularly obscure one, since it's not shown in The Century Dictionary of 1895, a very comprehensive dictionary for its time.)


 
Duh. Sorry - I should've read the link you gave more thoroughly! Thanks for the full explanation - v interesting.


----------



## Mmustafa

If you are addressing a woman whom you do not know she is married or not, you will say *Ms.* so and so.?

Thanks


----------



## GreenWhiteBlue

Yes, that would be common.  (It is pronounced as "Miz", by the way/)

Woman: _Do you have the book I ordered?  My name is Antoinette Habsburg._
Bookstore clerk:_ Yes, *Ms. Habsburg*, your order is here._


----------



## bibliolept

I'd pronounce it "miss."


----------



## Mmustafa

Thanks so much, GreenWhiteBlue and Bibliolept.


----------



## JamesM

bibliolept said:


> I'd pronounce it "miss."


 
Like GWB, I would pronounce it "miz" to distinguish it from "Miss". 

That's interesting to me that "Ms." and "Miss" would be pronounced the same.


----------



## anothersmith

I pronounce it "miz" rather than "miss."   I dislike it when people address me as "miss" or "missus."


----------



## Cagey

There is a long thread on Miss or Mrs or Ms? which includes a discussion of the pronunciation.  

The general consensus is for the pronunciation "miz".  The WordReference Dctionary ( ms ) and Merriam-Webster agree.


----------



## GreenWhiteBlue

bibliolept said:


> I'd pronounce it "miss."


 
I would pronounce "Miss" as "miss".  I would differentiate between "Miss" and "Ms." by pronouncing "Ms." as "Miz".  In my experience, this is the common practice; I have never heard anyone pronounce "Ms." the same way as "Miss", while I always hear it pronounced as "Miz".  Pronouncing  both Ms. and Miss the same way would miss the point of having a separate and distinct honorific unrelated to marital status, wouldn't it?


----------



## TrentinaNE

Ms. is an invented title dating from the 1970s, and it has always been pronounced (by design) as "miz."

Elisabetta


----------



## Skin

Dear members, 
forgive me if I "resuscitate" such a long thread you're probably all fed up with. I read it thoroughly, but couldn't find the answer to a little curiosity of mine. In that thread, it was taken for granted that Ms, Miss and Mrs are to be used before the surname or name + surname. In fact all of us learners should Know this is the right usage. However, I once happended to address a woman as "Mrs  Barbara" and stood corrected. 
What impression do you think I gave? Was that offensive, funny or just "non-native"?
Thank you!


----------



## Nunty

In most forms of English the honorific is only used with the surname. However, in some regions (the southern US is one) older ladies may be addressed with Miss + their first name. I'm not aware of any regional variation that allows Mrs. + first name.


----------



## TrentinaNE

Yes, "Mrs. Barbara" definitely gives one away as a non-native.    I doubt anyone would be offended, perhaps just mildly amused or puzzled.

Elisabetta


----------



## foxfirebrand

Let me add that the use of _Ms_ is not universally accepted or liked.  People who love language may be unaware of that because they are often excellent students, learning a new language because they have a career in mind, or are trying to better themselves in some way.

Among the unschooled, who work jobs and raise kids and perhaps knock down a freezerful of moose meat over the weekend, _Ms_ never caught on.  And whenever there's a resurgence of populism in American society, I hear rumors of backlash against correctspeak-- and "honorifics" like _Ms.
ll
_


----------



## Cagey

Skin said:


> However, I once happended to address a woman as "Mrs  Barbara" and stood corrected.
> What impression do you think I gave? Was that offensive, funny or just "non-native"?
> Thank you!



I agree with others that you would not have caused offense, and there is no reason to be embarrassed.    

However, the use a honorific with the first name does have a particular association in my mind.  It is the way servants address the children of their employers -- in literature, at least, which is all I know of such things.


----------



## TrentinaNE

foxfirebrand said:


> "honorifics" like _Ms._


I don't know why you put _honorifics_ in quotation marks.  In the U.S., Ms. is as legitimate a form of address as Mr.   

Many married women don't like being called _Mrs. His-first-name His-last-name_ -- which is a form of address that was promulgated by society matrons in the 19th century, e.g. Mrs. Potter Palmer -- but people seem to accept that form as "standard" and wonder why anyone would object to it.   Mrs. Martha Washington certainly would have -- she wouldn't have known who on earth you meant if you called her Mrs. George Washington.  

The best rule of thumb, in my opinion, is to ask a woman how she prefers to be addressed, and for women who are addressed in a manner they don't like to calmly point out what they prefer.  

Elisabetta


----------



## foxfirebrand

TrentinaNE said:


> I don't know why you put _honorifics_ in quotation marks.  In the U.S., Ms. is as legitimate a form of address as Mr.



Well, I was speaking from the point of view of the attitude I was describing-- not my personal opinion, I can argue the matter round or flat.

As for _why_ some people don't consider _Ms_ an honorific, it has almost nothing to do with sexism or anti-feminism.  It's more a reluctance to go along with the trendy new language terms that social engineers, do-gooders, journalists and ivory-tower types are always trying to impose on the language.

A _whole_ lot of people don't like PC and the enforcement of carefully-tweaked terms like "person of interest" (for crime suspect) and "persons of color" (for colored people).  Language doesn't "trickle down" from exalted academicians, it percolates upwards from the grass-roots level.  People _at_ that level recognize that all these new language terms are part of a calculated strategem for behavioral change-- and we don't like to be manipulated and pushed around.

Sometimes the media elites try to coin "grass-roots" terms like _freedom fries_-- they don't tend to go over very well either.  The only real power in media capable of introducing neologisms with staying power in the popular languag-- is the advertising industry.
.


----------



## mplsray

foxfirebrand said:


> Well, I was speaking from the point of view of the attitude I was describing-- not my personal opinion, I can argue the matter round or flat.
> 
> As for _why_ some people don't consider _Ms_ an honorific, it has almost nothing to do with sexism or anti-feminism. It's more a reluctance to go along with the trendy new language terms that social engineers, do-gooders, journalists and ivory-tower types are always trying to impose on the language..


 
Considering _Ms._ to be a "trendy new language term" seems quite unjustified to me.

One measure that a term has become firmly established in English is how businesses use it, as business people are, in general, conservative. I'm sure that refusing to use _Ms._ when addressing a woman who wishes to be addressed in that fashion would be a firing offense in many American businesses--most of them, I expect.


----------



## foxfirebrand

mplsray said:


> Considering _Ms._ to be a "trendy new language term" seems quite unjustified to me.
> 
> One measure that a term has become firmly established in English is how businesses use it, as business people are, in general, conservative. I'm sure that refusing to use _Ms._ when addressing a woman who wishes to be addressed in that fashion would be a firing offense in many American businesses--most of them, I expect.



Well, trendiness is a matter of perspective-- of both timespan and social status.  Among (small-c) conservative and working-class people things are slower to change, and mores aren't driven by rules handed down "from on high."

In the business world I doubt anyone would make a point of antagonizing someone, and in that world the cerebral dexterity it takes to sort out _everyone's_ preference is easier to come by than it is the more hurried world of wage (and tip) workers.

I trust you will allow that what holds true for the _business_ world is not necessarily pertinent to the lower echelons of the economy.  Also, like I said, there are plenty of women who would be mildly offended (or _be_mused without being _a_mused) by those who call them _Ms._  This goes doubled for married women who prefer the tried-and-true honorific, _Mrs._
.


----------



## miniangel29

<<This thread has been merged with earlier threads>>
Hello all,
 I know these abbriviations are like this :

Miss. = Young Unmarried Lady..

Ms. = Unmarried Lady..

Mr = Gentleman...

Mrs. = Married Lady..

But my quetion is it impolite to call a married woman *Ms* ? somebody says that *Ms* has bad referanceI mean socially is that true ? 

Regards,
Me​


----------



## Gwan

There's a long thread on Ms/Mrs/Miss here http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=288031 which should probably answer your question (or at least provide the different perspectives people have on the issue).

<<Thanks, Gwan. Threads merged.>>


----------



## Welshie

"Ms" is a difficult one. Some people love it, some people hate it. Personally, I would call a married woman "Mrs" unless I am aware that she prefers to be called "Ms".

"Ms" is supposed to refer to a lady without revealing whether she is married. (Like "Mr").


----------



## Egmont

My wife retained her birth name when we married, as she had been known by that name professionally for some time. "Mrs." doesn't work, since that would be used with my surname, not hers. "Miss" is clearly incorrect, since she is married. Therefore, it has to be "Ms."

The use of "Ms." varies a great deal from culture to culture and, within a culture, from person to person. In the U.S., as a generalization, if a woman prefers "Ms.," she might be seriously offended if she is addressed by either of the other two titles. On the other hand, if she prefers "Miss" or "Mrs.," but is addressed as "Ms.," she will probably only be mildly annoyed - especially in business, where "Ms." is quite common.


----------



## Fabulist

miniangel29 said:


> <<This thread has been merged with earlier threads>>
> Hello all,
> I know these abbriviations are like this :
> 
> Miss. = Young Unmarried Lady..​
> ​


​

No.  Its equivalents in other languages might be limited to women under a certain age, but as a title of address before a name in English it applies to any unmarried woman, even if she is 100 years old.

_Without_ a name, it is used to address young women whose names are unknown, although that risks annoying those who consider its use demeaning under all circumstances.


----------

