# Atheism and agnosticism



## Talib

مرحباً

I know the translations for "atheism" and "agnosticism" are الإلحاد and اللاأدرية (at least the academic terms, as opposed to simply calling both الكفر) but what exactly do these terms mean? I would like to see if anyone knows the roots they come from, related words etc.

As an aside I have also seen إنكار وجود الله but this seems more like a definition than anything (disbelief in the existence of God).


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## ahshav

Unfortunately my Arabic isn't good enough to give you an answer - but to add another word to the mix - I had a teacher (Egyptian) who said that  علماني was used in referring to both secular and atheist. The only other term he said he used was غير متدين.

Can anyone comment on the accuracy of this (both in Egypt and elsewhere)?


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## Anatoli

The first one has the root letters لحد l /l-H-d/ - _disbelieve, defect from,_  so الإلحاد (al-'ilHaad) is atheism. Not sure about the 2nd one. How do you pronounce اللاأدرية?


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## Josh_

Yes, as Anatoli said, الإلحاد comes from the root ل-ح-د.  It comes from the form IV (أفعل) verb ألحد (_alHada_) which means "deviating from the correct path" or "becoming a heretic," according to the dictionary. Although I cannot give an answer from a native standpoint, my feeling is that this is not a neutral term, but rather has negative associations.  A person adhering to الإلحاد is a ملحد (_mulHid_) -- one deviating from the correct path.

اللاأدرية (_al-laa-2adriyya_) is a combination of the negating particle لا and a nisba adjective أدرية created from the verb درى (_dara_) meaning "to know about" or "have knowledge of," thus, in terms of religion, it means "not knowing about/having knowledge of the existence of god(s)."   A person who adheres to اللاأدرية is a لاأدري (_laa-2adriyy_) -- one not having knowledge of god(s), i.e. an agnostic.

غير متدين (_ghayru mutadayyin_) is fairly self explanatory, متدين meaning "religious" and غير simply being a negating particle meaning un-, non-, not.  I would translate it as "non-religious."

Linguistically speaking both لاأدري and غير متدين seem to be neutral, although I imagine they have negative associations about them as it is generally looked down upon (by those who believe) to not believe in, or to be unsure about, the existence of a god.  Despite that, I imagine they are less stigmatizing than ملحد.  Again, that is my feeling as a non-native speaker.

Even the English "atheism," which is just formed from the prefix "a-" meaning "without" and the noun "theism," generally has negative associations, for the same reasons stated above, despite being linguistically neutral.  

As a point of interest, there is another another word in Arabic -- الزندقة (az-_zandaqa_) which means atheism or unbelief. According to the Hans Wehr it can also mean free thinking.  One who adheres to الزندقة is a زنديق (_zindiiq_).  I imagine, like the other words, it too has negative associations.


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## Mahaodeh

I think Hans Wehr is wrong about Zindeeq; zandaqa is not atheism and it has nothing to do with free thinking!

According to lisaan Al Arab:

الزنديق القائل ببقاء الدهر، فارسي معرّب وهو بالفارسية زَنْد كِرَاي. قال الزهري: الزنديق من الثنوية وهو معرب والجمع الزنادقة والاسم الزندقة

Thanyawiyya is a type of majoosiyya up to my understanding, related either to Manichaeism or Zoroastrianism, I'm not quite sure which.


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## Talib

So there's a stem IV verb ألحد, but are there any other derived forms of this root?


> Unfortunately my Arabic isn't good enough to give you an answer - but to add another word to the mix - I had a teacher (Egyptian) who said that علماني was used in referring to both secular and atheist. The only other term he said he used was غير متدين.


Can anyone shed a little light on the word علماني?


> اللاأدرية (_al-laa-2adriyya_) is a combination of the negating particle لا and a nisba adjective أدرية created from the verb درى (_dara_) meaning "to know about" or "have knowledge of," thus, in terms of religion, it means "not knowing about/having knowledge of the existence of god(s)."   A person who adheres to اللاأدرية is a لاأدري (_laa-2adriyy_) -- one not having knowledge of god(s), i.e. an agnostic.


This appears to be a calque from Greek _a-_ (not) _gnostos_ (knowing). It's very interesting because normally لا wouldn't appear in such derivations - Arabic is not generally a compounding language. I would have rather thought a word might have been coined from a root meaning "to be uncertain", but there you have it.


> Even the English "atheism," which is just formed from the prefix "a-" meaning "without" and the noun "theism," generally has negative associations, for the same reasons stated above, despite being linguistically neutral.


Well, I disagree (as an atheist) but I think it varies. In America it would for many people, but not so much in Canada where religion doesn't play as big as role in our lives. I wouldn't be surprised if agnosticism, non-religion and atheism are viewed negatively by many if not most Arabs though. 

On that note, why do you think لاأدري would be less pejorative than ملحد? Surely both are equally unacceptable from a Muslim viewpoint?



> As a point of interest, there is another another word in Arabic -- الزندقة (az-_zandaqa_) which means atheism or unbelief. According to the Hans Wehr it can also mean free thinking.  One who adheres to الزندقة is a زنديق (_zindiiq_).  I imagine, like the other words, it too has negative associations.


I did know this word, but not in a religious context.

Are you sure it would have negative connotations? "Freethinking" doesn't really in English, aside from being associated with atheism maybe (which might well be the case with the Arabic word, I don't know).


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## WadiH

Josh,
I think it's usually pronounced _la 2idrii_/_la 2idriyya_.


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## Talib

And I thought it was la 2udriyyah. Maybe it's one of those Arabic words that varies.


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## Anatoli

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Josh,
> I think it's usually pronounced _la 2idrii_/_la 2idriyya_.


Hamza is above, not below, must be either "a" or "u", at least in fuSHa.


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## WadiH

Anatoli said:


> Hamza is above, not below, must be either "a" or "u", at least in fuSHa.



Well, it's often spelled with the _hamza_ below as well.


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## Josh_

Mahaodeh said:


> I think Hans Wehr is wrong about Zindeeq; zandaqa is not atheism and it has nothing to do with free thinking!
> 
> According to lisaan Al Arab:
> 
> الزنديق القائل ببقاء الدهر، فارسي معرّب وهو بالفارسية زَنْد كِرَاي. قال الزهري: الزنديق من الثنوية وهو معرب والجمع الزنادقة والاسم الزندقة
> 
> Thanyawiyya is a type of majoosiyya up to my understanding, related either to Manichaeism or Zoroastrianism, I'm not quite sure which.


I looked it up in several dictionaries and they all had meanings related to atheism, disbelief, heretic.  Only the Hans Wehr had the meaning of free thinker.  

Anyway, according to the wikipedia article on زندقة we are both right.  It started out as a word used by Muslims to refer to Manichaeism or pagans, and then gradually was applied to ملحدون and أصحاب البدع.


Talib said:


> Can anyone shed a little light on the word علماني?


Oh, I skipped right over this word.  It comes from the root ع-ل-م which has to do with knowledge, but specifically, it is an adjective derived from the word  عالم world.  Things related to the world are worldly, or secular.



> This appears to be a calque from Greek _a-_ (not) _gnostos_ (knowing).


Yes, it probably is.


> It's very interesting because normally لا wouldn't appear in such derivations


Why do you say that?



> - Arabic is not generally a compounding language.


Maybe not as much as other languages, but there is some compounding.  Combining words with لا in order to derive the opposite is actually fairly common.



> Well, I disagree (as an atheist) but I think it varies. In America it would for many people, but not so much in Canada where religion doesn't play as big as role in our lives.


Of course it varies from place to place.  Generally, in America, where the majority of people claim to believe in a god, atheism is generally viewed as negative for the mere fact that it is opposed to that.



> I wouldn't be surprised if agnosticism, non-religion and atheism are viewed negatively by many if not most Arabs though.


Yes, I agree that they probably are.



> On that note, why do you think لاأدري would be less pejorative than ملحد? Surely both are equally unacceptable from a Muslim viewpoint?


Because of the denotative meaning.  "Deviating from the "_correct path_"" sounds stronger/worse and more worthy of condemnation than just simply "not knowing."  But yes, both are deemed unacceptable.  The main reason I mentioned negative associations is because in terms of academic use if there is a choice between a negative word or a more neutral one, the neutral one should be chosen, so as to treat the subject as objectively as possible.  Thus I really don't like the use of الإلحاد as an academic term for atheism, as it still connotes the idea that it is a bad thing worthy of condemnation, which like you (I assume), I do not agree with.  But I guess there is not a better, more neutral, term available.  

It is like the difference between terms الشذوذ الجنسي and الجنسية المثلية to refer to homosexuality.  My guess is that the latter, which just comes from مثل meaning of the same kind, was coined in order to be more objective (perhaps for academic purposes) and/or more politically correct since الشذوذ الجنسي still connotes deviant behavior.



> I did know this word, but not in a religious context.


What did it mean to you?



> Are you sure it would have negative connotations? "Freethinking" doesn't really in English, aside from being associated with atheism maybe (which might well be the case with the Arabic word, I don't know).


Free thinking by itself may not have negative connotations, but in conjunction with atheism is might, for the reasons explained above.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> Josh,
> I think it's usually pronounced _la 2idrii_/_la 2idriyya_.


Could it be common both ways? I learned it as _la 2adriyya_ from professors.  Out of curiosity I looked up both "اللاأدرية" and "اللاإدرية" on Google and the former occurred much more than the latter.


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## suma

"اللاأدرية"  and  غير متدين   are different. _Laa adriyah_ is the term for agnosticsim meaning one who does not deny the existence of God (atheist) but however he has doubts or is uncertain of God's existence. _Ghair mutadayyin_ means one who is not religious, i.e. he may believe but does not practice religion much.

الإلحاد  = atheism

علماني  is the modern term = secularist

زنديق  is somewhat outmoded, and not used I believe much nowadays. Has the nuance of atheist, free thinker actively opposed to established religion, seditionist.


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## Talib

Josh_ said:


> Oh, I skipped right over this word. It comes from the root ع-ل-م which has to do with knowledge, but specifically, it is an adjective derived from the word عالم world. Things related to the world are worldly, or secular.


Ah, thanks. I should have caught that.

But why علماني and not, say عالمي? Can "worldly" be used as a synonym of "secular"? I doubt it myself, but it's a thought.


> Why do you say that?
> 
> Maybe not as much as other languages, but there is some compounding.  Combining words with لا in order to derive the opposite is actually fairly common.


Do you know some other examples? I can't think of any off the top of my head. More often غير is used, and there are many compounds with this word equivalent to English un- or not.


> Yes, I agree that they probably are.


With that in mind, I should think I'd rather describe myself as غير متدين, just like I might in English around deeply religious people.


> Thus I really don't like the use of الإلحاد as an academic term for atheism, as it still connotes the idea that it is a bad thing worthy of condemnation, which like you (I assume), I do not agree with.  But I guess there is not a better, more neutral, term available.


I agree.


> What did it mean to you?


Free-thinking.



> Could it be common both ways? I learned it as _la 2adriyya_ from professors.  Out of curiosity I looked up both "اللاأدرية" and "اللاإدرية" on Google and the former occurred much more than the latter.


I suggested it's one of those Arabic words whose harakat seem to vary between dialects and even speakers. Maybe it's not common enough for people to know either way.

But I am certain it's spelled with hamza on top of the alif.


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## WadiH

Well the place of the hamza is not dispositive.  Many people erroneously put the hamza above the alef even when they pronounce it with a kasra.

When you say فلان شخص لا أدري, it can be confused with the verb as if you're saying "So and so is a person ... I don't know."  But I'm sure there are variations as with many other words.


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## Josh_

Talib said:


> Ah, thanks. I should have caught that.
> 
> But why علماني and not, say عالمي? Can "worldly" be used as a synonym of "secular"? I doubt it myself, but it's a thought.


Perhaps "mundane" or just "of the world" would have been better.  The point is that it is an adjective derived from عالم.  
l
عالمي is also a nisba adjective derived from عالمي.  I don't know why علماني was coined.  Perhaps to differentiate between the meanings of "of the world/mundane" (عالمي) and "secular" علماني.


> "Do you know some other examples? I can't think of any off the top of my head."


Some of the more common ones are words such as اللاشعور the unconscious, اللامبالاة apathy, indifference, اللامركزية decentralization, لاإرادي involuntary, لا نهائي infinite, لاشيء nothing.  There is even a verb that was derived from لاشيءl-- تلاشي (talaasha) to come to nothing, dwindle, disappear.

As far as the pronunciation of اللاأدرية I asked an Arab friend how he pronounces it and he said what sounded like "al-laa-2idariyya."  So there does seem to be some variation.  As for the spelling, all the dictionaries I consulted spell it with the alif on top.


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## Talib

But isn't لا شيء spelled with a space between the two words? It's the spelled with the لا right next to the word that seems anomalous to me.

I think most the words you suggested are modern coinages, correct? I mean "decentralization" seems like a very modern concept.


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## Faylasoof

Hello All,

I’m joining this rather late so I do not have to repeat what others have already said.  


Talib said:


> But isn't لا شيء spelled with a space between the two words? It's the spelled with the لا right next to the word that seems anomalous to me.
> 
> I think most the words you suggested are modern coinages, correct? I mean "decentralization" seems like a very modern concept.


 Talib, you are correct in saying that many of these are modern. There has been a need for them! But some are quite old. Ibn Sina in his كتاب الشفاء uses the word لاشَیِّئَة to describe the idea of <nothingness>. Besides, I’m not sure if having a space or not matters as long as they are grammatically treated as a unit.

Although I must admit I’m not exactly sure when the terms لاأدرِيّة and لا أَدري came to be used, they could be older than we imagine. 

The idea of freely and publicly admitting that one doesn’t know is old in Arabic-Islamic literature:

من ترك قول لا أدري أصيبت مقاتله​ 
-Ali Ibn Abi Talib

This of course was _not_ a reference to belief or disbelief in God! _Of that we can be sure!!_ However, the idea was to admit that one cannot be sure of everyhting. In this respect al-Ghazaali’s transition from a questioning philosopher to a believing mystic went through a period which has been described as the period of لاأدرِيّة – the term used in Islamic philosophy (originally from Greek philosophy) as a way to explain that certain and definite knowledge is unattainable. 

Al-Ghazaali underwent a complete collapse with extreme emotional and intellectual turmoil before finding refuge in the “comforting certainty of religion”.


Josh_ said:


> Anyway, according to the wikipedia article on زندقة we are both right. It started out as a word used by Muslims to refer to Manichaeism or pagans, and then gradually was applied to ملحدون and أصحاب البدع.


 The Arabic word الزنديق is, as Mahaodeh points with reference to Lisan al-Arab, actually Persian - comes from the Pahlavi (Middle Persian) word <_zandik_> = a heretic; a Manichaean (follower of the Persian prophet-reformer Mani [210-76 CE] ). 

So, it was the Sassanian rulers, not Muslims, who thus labelled the Manichaeans after they (the Sassanian rulers plus the clergy) declared Zoroastrianism as the state religion. This edict mirrored that of Theodosius I who declared Christianity as the state and sole religion of the Roman Empire in 391 CE (Constantine’s Milan edict of 313 CE had merely legalized it).


Josh_ said:


> Could it be common both ways? I learned it as _la 2adriyya_ from professors. Out of curiosity I looked up both "اللاأدرية" and "اللاإدرية" on Google and the former occurred much more than the latter.


 I have almost always seen (and used) لاأدرِيّة(_laa ‘adriyyah_), with a _fath_ on the _hamza_. 

Apart from the terms discussed above, the following are also used:

مارِق _maariq _(s)  مَرَقَة _maraqah_ (pl) = heretic, apostate, schismatic

دَهري  dahri = temporal, worldly, mundane; atheist, materialist (as opposed to a spiritualist. Also used in Persian and Urdu like this.)


Talib said:


> This appears to be a calque from Greek _a-_ (not) _gnostos_ (knowing).


 While اللاأدرية appears to be a calque from Greek, it is still OK compared to this:

لاغُنُوصِي  _laaghunooSi_ = agnostic! – rare usage, but exists.


Josh_ said:


> I don't know why علماني was coined. Perhaps to differentiate between the meanings of "of the world/mundane" (عالمي) and "secular" علماني.


 I think you might be correct here Josh. The older word is used in other languages (Persian and Urdu) also to mean <_of the world_> and has been used so for a long time. So perhaps there was need for the neologism <علماني> meaning _secular_. I think there was a need for this so as to avoid confusion.


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