# "במלרע או במלעיל"



## bball909

From the phrase: "אבל גבעת אולפנה, במלרע או במלעיל, רחוקה מאוד מלבם:"

Melingo translates במלעיל as "paryoxytone" or "penultimate stress" which still doesn't mean much to me.....


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## tFighterPilot

Milra and Mil'el describe on which syllable the stress is put. In Milra the stress is put on the last syllable and in Mil'el on the second to last.


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## bball909

Are these common used phrases in Hebrew? In English, only linguists would know what "paryoxytone" means...


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## tFighterPilot

They are somewhat common. All original Hebrew words are one or the other (burrowed words can be neither).


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## arielipi

Modern words also can be neither


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## origumi

Every Israeli should recognize the following:
אני רק רציתי לשאול, איך קוראים בעברית לצ'ופצ'יק של הקומקום? 
 למה? 
 לצ'ופצ'יק של הקומקום, זה שמשפיך ת'תה...
 קודם כל, קומקום במלרע ולא קומקום במלעיל, כמו טומטום ב*מלרע* ולא טומטום ב*מלעיל*! 
 הלו? זה רדיו? 
 ודאי, ודאי...


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## Tararam

Yes, Mil'el and Milra are extremely common in Hebrew, even though they are linguistic terms.
I guess most of us know about them since we learn the old testament at a very young age at school?
Another odd reason I can think of, is that most Israeli names are properly pronounced with a Milra (and you are usually called that way by your family and friends you know from way back), but there's a "slang"/"cooler"/other version of names which takes a Mil'el.

For example, people who are named "Ya'akov" (the Hebrew name for Jacob), could have their name pronounced "Ya*-*a*kov*" (which is the proper way, with the stress on the last syllable), and also "*Ya*-akov" which is considered "slangy".

Some words even have different meanings: "*Bo*ker" is "morning" while "Bo*ker" *is"a cowboy".
"Ro*shem*" is "writing" and "*Ro*shem" is "impression".


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## airelibre

origumi said:


> Every Israeli should recognize the following:
> אני רק רציתי לשאול, איך קוראים בעברית לצ'ופצ'יק של הקומקום?
> למה?
> לצ'ופצ'יק של הקומקום, זה שמשפיך ת'תה...
> קודם כל, קומקום במלרע ולא קומקום במלעיל, כמו טומטום ב*מלרע* ולא טומטום ב*מלעיל*!
> הלו? זה רדיו?
> ודאי, ודאי...



Just out of curiosity, to what does this refer?


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## Tararam

It's a very known and popular skit by an Israeli comedy group called הגשש החיוור. 
They, as well as their skits, are considered Israeli canon.
you can read a little bit (very little) about them here 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaGashash_HaHiver

Hebrew word play was often present in their work.


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## arbelyoni

Stress is one of the differences between the Ashkenazi and Sephardi pronunciation of Hebrew. Ashkenazi Hebrew largely stresses the penultimate syllable (mil'el) while Sephardi Hebrew usually stresses the last syllable (milra').
The pronunciation of Modern Hebrew is based on Sephardi Hebrew, so most words _should_ be stressed on their last syllable. However, under the deep, inevitable influence of the Ashkenazi pronunciation, Modern Hebrew has adapted to the Ashkenazi stress in some cases (e.g first names, names of places, names of holidays, loanwords, past verbs in 2nd person plural…).

So we now have a variety of words (אולפנה is one of them) and names that maintain two possible pronunciations: milra' and mil'el.
There's a clear difference in register between these two pronunciations: Mil'el is for common, day-to-day and informal speech, while milra' represents the higher, proper and formal register.

Ultimately, Hebrew speakers know both pronunciations and are instinctively aware of the difference between them.  
I believe that's why the terms for oxytone and paroxytone are so prevalent and common outside linguistic circles.


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## airelibre

Are מלעיל and מלרע examples of themselves? That is, is it mílel and milrá? That would make it easier for to me to remember which way round they are! 

I have seen that they mean respectively "above" and "below", does anyone know the reason for these labels?


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## origumi

airelibre said:


> Are מלעיל and מלרע examples of themselves? That is, is it mílel and milrá? That would make it easier for to me to remember which way round they are!
> 
> I have seen that they mean respectively "above" and "below", does anyone know the reason for these labels?


Not your lucky day. Both מלעיל and מלרע are pronounced in מלרע.

They mean indeed "from above" (מלעיל) and "from below" (מלרע) in Aramaic, as if the word is written Chinese style from top down. idk y.


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## arbelyoni

> Are מלעיל and מלרע examples of themselves? That is, is it mílel and milrá? That would make it easier for to me to remember which way round they are!


There's a line that helped me memorize it: הסוף תמיד רע (the end is always bad, or: the end is always "ra").
Not optimistic, but very efficient


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## tirgumx

bball909 said:


> From the phrase: "אבל גבעת אולפנה, במלרע או במלעיל, רחוקה מאוד מלבם:"
> 
> Melingo translates במלעיל as "paryoxytone" or "penultimate stress" which still doesn't mean much to me.....



Ulpa*na* (ultimate stress) is the formal way of pronouncing the name of that place. In Hebrew, proper nouns will mostly become penultimate when said colloquially, giving a sense of (positive) diminishing, like a nickname. Thus, givat ha*ul*pana (pen-pen-ultimate), which is neither mil'el nor milra (as it goes even farther back to the third syllable from the end) is the colloquial way which the inhabitants of the tiny settlement gracefully refer to it.


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## tirgumx

arbelyoni said:


> There's a line that helped me memorize it: הסוף תמיד רע (the end is always bad, or: the end is always "ra").
> Not optimistic, but very efficient



To me the teacher said to remember לעיל as "above" (used a lot in reference literature), and thus remember מלרע is "down". Then I should remember that down below in the grave, the person is "after" his life, and thus "מלרע" would be in post-position.

This actually helped


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