# casa proletaria



## GettingBetter

Ciao a tutti, 

A question about the figurative meaning of "casa proletaria". I could translate it literally as "proletarian house" but I think it has a different kind of figurative sense in this sentence. Basically, the author is blaming social institutes and heredity for social problems.

Non l’eredità biologica, ma la «casa proletaria» è la «grande fabbrica dei cosiddetti delinquenti nati, delle prostitute, di tutti i degenerati del corpo e dell’anima, e di tutte quelle turpitudini dolorose, di cui l’uomo rende a torto responsabile la natura creatrice»


(It's a book on genetics, and they get a bit carried away!)


My attempt: 



It was not biological heredity but rather the “casa proletariahttp://forum.wordreference.com/#_msocom_1” that was the “great factory of so-called born delinquents, of prostitutes, of all the degenerations of body and soul, and all the vile pains for which mankind blames nature”.


Any native speakers out there who can enlighten me on meanings of Casa proletaria?

Thanks!


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## elemika

Hi,GettingBetter!
I'm not a native but I've found another meaning of "casa" which could fit your text. Look here, please : 

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa

I think you are intrested in the _""casa" in psicologia e scienze sociali ",_
and basing on this part I deduce that "casa" is also "orientation", "mentality".
Maybe you will come to another conclusion...


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## Odysseus54

I think it simply means "the worker's home" = "the poor man's home" - e' l'ambiente familiare, non l'eredita' genetica.


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## GettingBetter

Hmm, so now I have two different possibilities: The worker's mentality or the worker's house. 

I guess anyway that in the second case 'the worker's house' would be a kind of metaphor to mean the worker's mentality.

I'll have to think about it more, but thanks very much for the suggestions!

Grazie!


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## Odysseus54

Ricorda che "casa" in italiano puo' significare "house" oppure "home", a seconda che ci si riferisca all'edificio nella sua materialita', oppure alla famiglia, ai risvolti emotivi/affettivi ecc.

Si dice " the windows of the house "  ma " ours was a very warm home " ( a meno che non voglia dire che dentro casa il riscaldamento funzionava molto bene.. )


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## Gabbi

Could it be a general social classification e.g. the working class?


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## Odysseus54

Yes, of course - he is saying that it's what happens at home in a certain socio-economic class, that determines behaviors etc.  Nurture vs nature, they say here.


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## miri

What about "the proletarian household"?


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## Gabbi

Household may imply the 'domestic' or family situation within the house


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## GettingBetter

I think it's more general than just the 'household'. I guess Gabbi's idea of the entire 'working class' might be close to the original spirit of the expression.


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## elemika

Odysseus54 said:


> Ricorda che "casa" in italiano puo' significare "house" oppure "home", a seconda che ci si riferisca all'edificio nella sua materialita', oppure alla famiglia, ai risvolti emotivi/affettivi ecc.
> 
> Si dice " the windows of the house " ma " ours was a very warm home " ( a meno che non voglia dire che dentro casa il riscaldamento funzionava molto bene.. )


 
Yes, of course, and maybe here we could find a link between "casa" e "mentality'" as "atmosphere of the proletarians' house"?


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## miri

I suggested "household" because I have a feeling that here "casa" is a synonym for "family", otherwise a different term would have been used, I guess. 
The proletarian family (the relationships within it) is somehow held responsible for deviant behaviours in society.


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## london calling

Interesting debate, people!

I've read all your posts and had a think about how I would instinctively express the concept of "casa proletaria" in this context in English. I automatically ruled out "proletarian": to me that conjours up "reds under the beds"  and Bolshevik revolutionaries.

Working class (family) background?

To me, that encompasses social class, family, house, home, household and mentality. You are, of course, free to disagree!

My (very loose) interpretation:

_It is not __biological inheritance__  but a working class family background which engenders the so-called born criminal, the prostitute, the deviant rotten to his very soul and all the other forms of depravity for which man(kind) wrongly blames Mother Nature._


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## elemika

london calling said:


> Interesting debate, people!
> 
> I've read all your posts and had a think about how I would instinctively express the concept of "casa proletaria" in this context in English. I automatically ruled out "proletarian": to me that conjours up "reds under the beds"  and Bolshevik revolutionaries.
> 
> Working class (family) background?
> 
> /quote]
> 
> Hi, London calling, sorry,
> but " *proletariat* (from Latin _proles_, "offspring") is a term used to identify a lower social class; a member of such a class is *proletarian*".
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat
> 
> It's not definitionally equivalent to the working class. Nowdays  they often differ.
> 
> So, maybe it's better to use "the poor man's" as proposed Odysseus? Or just lumpen?
> 
> For example, "lumpens' lifestyle"? Or "lumpens' background"? But I'm not quite sure that it can be used as a noun...


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## miri

I think Jo's rendering is perfect, as alwaysl!


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## Odysseus54

london calling said:


> Interesting debate, people!
> 
> I've read all your posts and had a think about how I would instinctively express the concept of "casa proletaria" in this context in English. I automatically ruled out "proletarian": to me that conjours up "reds under the beds"  and Bolshevik revolutionaries.
> 
> Working class (family) background?
> 
> To me, that encompasses social class, family, house, home, household and mentality. You are, of course, free to disagree!
> 
> My (very loose) interpretation:
> 
> _It is not __biological inheritance__  but a working class family background which engenders the so-called born criminal, the prostitute, the deviant rotten to his very soul and all the other forms of depravity for which man(kind) wrongly blames Mother Nature._




I would not use "working class family" - too wide of a category.  Here in the US they have a very nice euphemism : "underprivileged".

What do you think of "underprivileged family background" ?  Or , simply, "poor".   

It's poverty that messes you up - work, as we know, makes you free.


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## london calling

elemika;7452379 
Hi said:
			
		

> proletariat[/B] (from Latin _proles_, "offspring") is a term used to identify a lower social class; a member of such a class is *proletarian*". I know, but it's a cultural thing for us Brits, Elemika, proletarian is almost an insult (prole is even worse: I mean_ prole_ as Orwell uses it in 1984, not the Latin "offspring"). I am quite well aware of the origin of the word. By the way, the working class is a lower social class.
> 
> So, maybe it's better to use "the poor man's" as proposed Odysseus? Or just lumpen? What's a lumpen?


Ody, you're a genius! We have the same word in BE: _underprivileged _works very well in this context.


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## elemika

_underprivileged 

_And  about lumpen_: __Lumpen_ are the great unwashed masses of the urban poor. 

http://urbis.wikidot.com/lumpen

By the way, the working class is a lower social class

The previous link to social class gives definition of "underclass" as class reliant on state benefits for income


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## london calling

elemika said:


> _underprivileged _
> 
> And about lumpen_: __Lumpen_ are the great unwashed masses of the urban poor.
> 
> http://urbis.wikidot.com/lumpen Yes, but _lu__mpenproletariat_ is a German word.  Here they use it in a videogame....it's like calling someone a hobbit! Seriously, it's not at all common in English.
> 
> 
> The previous link to social class gives definition of "underclass" as class reliant on state benefits for income. It also says that _proletariat_ means working class, which is a lower social class, as I said before, but it still sounds insulting to me (cultural differences, Elemika) compared to the term "working class". If someone called me a _prole/proletarian_ I'd shoot them! It's like saying "pleb" to someone (and yes, I know that's Latin as well ).
> 
> _Underclass_ would be translated in Italian as _sottoproletariato_, I think. It certainly exists as a term, but I would be very careful when you use it in English (in Italian it's maybe more acceptable).  I'm fairly sure that if you were to describe the Brits living off the Welfare State as "underclass" they'd be mortally offended. We usually call people like that parassites.


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## Gabbi

Well, take it from me, Elemika, us islanders (e.g. Irish and Brits) are a curious people. We learn a lot from video games and 2nd World War comics and are ignorant to many things such as what goes on on the big continent e.g. the fact that the Austro-Hungarian Empire (Kaiser und Koenigreich) left many German words in its wake such as "Lumpen" which also means "the cloth" or "the simple people"... 
When it comes to words such as proletariat or proletarian we react in a strange way. 
"So don't mention the war"....


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## 0scar

Odysseus54 said:


> I think it simply means "the worker's home" = "the poor man's home" - e' l'ambiente familiare, non l'eredita' genetica.



The  "proletarian home" understood as environment for growing up.


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## elemika

And about lumpen_: Lumpen_ are the great unwashed masses of the urban poor. 
http://urbis.wikidot.com/lumpen Yes, but _lumpenproletariat_ is a German word.




Here they use it in a videogame....it's like calling someone a hobbit!



Seriously, it's not at all common in English.

  Are you sure? 
  You see, videogames and scientific papers are very different sources of knowledge.
   Maybe, the problem is that I much more often deal with scientific papers.  And GettingBetter is translating the book on genetics, not  the comments for a videogame. 
  A very quick search shows that “lumpen” is widely used in articles and books on economics, psychology, sociology, morden art. They discuss “lumpen-status”, “lumpen-subjects as dirty pictures”, “lumpen forms of art”, “lumpenized strata of the population”.

  In the article devoted to the criminal history of Australia the author writes: 
  “There is a stratum of people called 'under-men', 'lumpen', 'untermensch', 'canaille', 'scum'. They are harsh words for a group of human beings who exist in every country and amongst every people, nationality and race”.

  I’m not sure that GettingBetter should use “lumpen”, but I wanted to stress the meaning of “under-man” in his context.

  I’m not ready to discuss  the term “working class” here, it’s too serious theme, especially as Odysseus successfully resolved this problem.

  I was happy to learn the opinion of the natives on the matter in question; it’s always very interesting and useful!!!
  Thank you for the excellent debate!


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## wonderment

elemika said:


> You see, videogames and scientific papers are very different sources of knowledge.


I agree with you, elemika. When I see the term ‘proletariat’ in Marxist theory, I don’t think of videogames or Bolshevik revolutionaries.  I don’t trust my Italian, but I suspect that we are looking at a precise sociological term, ‘the proletariat’, which denotes workers or working-class people. 



0scar said:


> The  "proletarian home" understood as environment for growing up.


 This is how one English translation renders the original German (from Engles’ _The Origin of the Family_). It’s a bit tricky linking to Google books--if the link doesn’t take you straight to page 78, search for it. The Italian translation of this passage is here (“casa proletaria” translates “proletarian home”). I’d add that ‘home’ in this context refers to the _social_ environment, the personal and social relations that structure the family. 

HTH


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## london calling

elemika said:


> Seriously, it's not at all common in English.
> 
> Are you sure? I'm fairly nigh convinced that most native speakers of English would not readily understand or use the word.
> 
> I’m not sure that GettingBetter should use “lumpen”, but I wanted to stress the meaning of “under-man” in his context. For sure! _Underprivileged_ is a very good way of expressing the idea without offending anyone.
> 
> I’m not ready to discuss the term “working class” here, it’s too serious theme, especially as Odysseus successfully resolved this problem. I agree! That is another problem. The meaning of "working class" in our various nations takes on different connotations.
> Thank you for the excellent debate! Thank you! I haven't had the chance to talk about this sort of thing with a Russian since I lost contact with two Russian colleagues 20 years ago!


Wonderment, I agree that proletariat, proletarian, underclass etc. are precise sociological and/or political terms. 

The problem in British English is the negative connotation the words have (as I said, think of George Orwell's "proles"), so we normally refer to the working class (or indeed to the underprivileged). Here in Italy the connotation is far less negative, because the left wing over here has always been far more radical than it is or has ever been in the UK (where it has never really had any say at all in national politics), so expressions like these here in Italy have become commonplace and acceptable. Us Brits are very conservative (even  left-wingers!) - we tend not to accept extremes. 

As I said, _proletarian home_ sounds offensive to my British (albeit left-wing) ears, even if I am not from a working class background myself.


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## wonderment

london calling said:


> The problem in British English is the negative connotation the words have (as I said, think of George Orwell's "proles"), so we normally refer to the working class (or indeed to the underprivileged)... As I said, _proletarian home_ sounds offensive to my British (albeit left-wing) ears, even if I am not from a working class background myself.


LC, I agree that ‘proletariat’ is not a term commonly used these days in everyday language (in BE or AE) to refer to the "working class." But that’s a separate issue from how to translate in an academic context a technical term (“casa proletaria”) derived from Marxist theory. Anyway, the English translation I linked to is BE (note the spelling of ‘labour’). And Terry Eagleton, a renown British literary theorist and critic, uses the term without any anxiety: here, here and here.


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## Odysseus54

wonderment said:


> LC, I agree that ‘proletariat’ is not a term commonly used in everyday language (in BE or AE) to refer to the "working class." But that’s a separate issue from how to translate in an academic context a technical term (“casa proletaria”) derived from Marxist theory. Anyway, the English translation I linked to is BE (note the spelling of ‘labour’). And Terry Eagleton, a renown British literary theorist and critic, uses the term without any anxiety: here, here and here.




In fact, I do not think that the term "proletarian" is solely used in Marxist theory.  I think Marx used it because it was a term used in sociological discourse in his times.  In Italy, it was used by pretty much everybody in the second half of the 19th Century.  And in England it was used by not-so-marxist characters like Toynbee, for instance.

Nowadays, though, nobody speaks of "proletariato" in Italy, unless they are orthodox Marxist-Leninist agitators, or scholars.

Actually, the term "lavoratore" and "lavoro" have also become quite rare.  When making acquaintance with someone, you used to ask "Che lavoro fai ? ".   Now most people ask " Di che ti occupi ? ".

The working class has become self-conscious.  A mechanic , trying to sound like a member of the leisure class, will say " Mi occupo di riparazioni di autoveicoli ", as he would say "Faccio collezione di monete bizantine".


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## wonderment

Odysseus54 said:


> In fact, I do not think that the term "proletarian" is solely used in Marxist theory.  I think Marx used it because it was a term used in sociological discourse in his times.  In Italy, it was used by pretty much everybody in the second half of the 19th Century.  And in England it was used by not-so-marxist characters like Toynbee, for instance.


True, Marx didn't invent the term from a vacuum, but he did redefine it to neutralize it of its derogatory sense, and I think "casa proletaria" as used by Engels needs to be understood in a sociologically precise way in the context of Marxist theory.


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## Odysseus54

wonderment said:


> True, Marx didn't invent the term from a vacuum, but he did redefine it to neutralize it of its derogatory sense, and I think "casa proletaria" as used by Engels needs to be understood in a sociologically precise way in the context of Marxist theory.




Is the text in question a translation from Engels ?


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## wonderment

How else to make sense of «grande fabbrica dei cosiddetti delinquenti nati, delle prostitute, di tutti i degenerati del corpo e dell’anima, e di tutte quelle turpitudini dolorose, di cui l’uomo rende a torto responsabile la natura creatrice» if not in the context of Marxist theory and the discussion of this technical term in Engels (specifically where he talks about women selling their labor and their bodies and the new social configuration of the "proletarian home")?


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## Odysseus54

wonderment said:


> How else to make sense of «grande fabbrica dei cosiddetti delinquenti nati, delle prostitute, di tutti i degenerati del corpo e dell’anima, e di tutte quelle turpitudini dolorose, di cui l’uomo rende a torto responsabile la natura creatrice» if not in the context of Marxist theory and the discussion of this technical term in Engels (specifically where he talks about women selling their labor and their bodies and the new social configuration of the "proletarian home")?




I am not sure - the text was introduced as a passage from a book on genetics.

What makes me a bit doubtful is that in this passage the term "proletarian" is used only in its 'negative' sense of 'poor', whereas in Marxian theory and in its political conclusions, the "proletarian" has enough 'positive qualities' to become the 'general class' which can subvert the system.  Marx' proletarian is progressive, this proletarian is a mess.

But this is all too much double-guessing, in my opinion.  If the passage in question was a passage from Engels' " Conditions of the working class in England " sociological essay, we would have to keep the term for obvious reasons.

If the passage was from say Lombroso, I think we should attempt to make the terminology more current.  Do you agree ?


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## wonderment

Odysseus54 said:


> I am not sure - the text was introduced as a passage from a book on genetics.
> 
> What makes me a bit doubtful is that in this passage the term "proletarian" is used only in its 'negative' sense of 'poor', whereas in Marxian theory and in its political conclusions, the "proletarian" has enough 'positive qualities' to become the 'general class' which can subvert the system.  Marx' proletarian is progressive, this proletarian is a mess.
> 
> But this is all too much double-guessing, in my opinion.  If the passage in question was a passage from Engels' " Conditions of the working class in England " sociological essay, we would have to keep the term for obvious reasons.
> 
> If the passage was from say Lombroso, I think we should attempt to make the terminology more current.  Do you agree ?


Not if it’s a term that requires reference to Marxist theory to explain its meaning. Regardless of one’s personal feelings toward the working class, ‘proletariat’ as a critical theoretical term has this specific meaning. It seems to me the sentence under question is drawing a contrast between genetics and environmental factors as competing explanations for behavior. The genetics factor is explained by biology; the social environmental factor is explained by recourse to Marxist theory on socio-economic relations which shape human behavior. The technical term “proletariat home” alludes to Marxist theory in a way that the non-technical term “worker’s home” does not.


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## elemika

Odysseus54 said:


> I am not sure - the text was introduced as a passage from a book on genetics.
> 
> What makes me a bit doubtful is that in this passage the term "proletarian" is used only in its 'negative' sense of 'poor'



Ciao,
it's only my guess but the text can originate from some chapter on eugenics.
 For example, I found the book *Eugenics, Human Genetics and Human Failings*, which "makes a major contribution to the study of the British eugenics movement and its applications to current scientific work." Indeed, it's a history of eugenics movement as the source of a science of human genetics.

And here the problems concerning proletariat are discussed in detailes:
http://books.google.ru/books?id=nTQXHKRDQsgC&lpg=PA1&ots=yHxmxI9nGD&dq=eugenics proletariat&pg=PA1


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## london calling

elemika said:


> And here the problems concerning proletariat are discussed in detailes:
> http://books.google.ru/books?id=nTQXHKRDQsgC&lpg=PA1&ots=yHxmxI9nGD&dq=eugenics proletariat&pg=PA1


That is very interesting and absolutely terrifying. 

Here, when they say "proletariat" they mean a sub-species of human being - exactly my point in my previous posts, when I said I thought it was offensive. However, if the text was written by somebody who is a firm believer in Eugenics, then the correct translation is indeed "proletarian". I had (probably) wrongly assumed that the text we were asked to translate was a little ironic.

Where's the original poster? Only he/she can clarify....


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## GettingBetter

Dear all, 

I am only just catching up on this entire conversation now, but I wanted to say a big thank-you to everyone who contributed. 

Firstly, because I think I will use the translation "proletarian home" as used in Engels, and secondly because I learned two big important lessons:

Google books seems like a great way to research particular terms, and I will use it a lot more now, and  I should always provide more context, because all the intelligent guesses here show me how interested people are. 

The quote in question is from a historical book talking about genetics and eugenics in Italy between the wars, so the references to Engels and other eugenics books were completely right (it's not a quote from Engels, but probably from someone who knew his work well though). 

I second the idea that proletatiat and proletarian are often considered offensive, but I guess they are appropriate for the times and contexts discussed in the book, where some very strange ideas are reported on.

Again, thanks so much to all for solving this problem. This helped me a lot.

GB


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