# Pronunciation of "aa"



## jcorbett09

Hello,

I am a complete beginner to learning Arabic (Modern Standard) and I am unsure of the pronunciation of the "aa" sound in Arabic such as that of "هذا" / haadhaa, as I have heard different sounds.

Sometimes I have heard a sound almost like the "e" in "lemon," "leg," etc. 

Other times I have heard a much more characteristically "a" sound such as the sound in "pause," or the "a" sound that's found in all Spanish words like "raza."

Are both correct but used in different regions? Is it a difference between Modern Standard and local accents? 

Thank you in advance.


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## clevermizo

jcorbett09 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am a complete beginner to learning Arabic (Modern Standard) and I am unsure of the pronunciation of the "aa" sound in Arabic such as that of "هذا" / haadhaa, as I have heard different sounds.
> 
> Sometimes I have heard a sound almost like the "e" in "lemon," "leg," etc.
> 
> Other times I have heard a much more characteristically "a" sound such as the sound in "pause," or the "a" sound that's found in all Spanish words like "raza."
> 
> Are both correct but used in different regions? Is it a difference between Modern Standard and local accents?
> 
> Thank you in advance.




There are two basic pronunciations of /aa/ in Standard Arabic but they vary by region. There is the "dark" pronunciation found near letters like ص، ط ،ض، ظ and the "light" pronunciation found near other letters like ك، ت، ب . The "dark" pronunciation is more like the [a] in f*a*ll or t*a*lk.The light pronunciation is more the [a] in c*a*t but can regionally also be closer to the [a] in f*a*ther. (Note, in my accent, I pronounce "fall" and "father" with two different 'a' sounds.)

Linguistically, the "light" pronunciation is a more front, more close vowel, and the "dark" pronunciation is a more back, more open vowel. 

Dialect variations can be greater. For example, in Beirut, the "light" pronunciation is more like the 'e' in b*e*d. I imagine in some regions, the /aa/ may be more or less uniform no matter the consonants that are nearby.

If you know a little bit about phonetics, all the consonants made by bringing the tongue base and tip towards the top and front of the mouth typically get the "light" pronunciation of a nearby /aa/. All the consonants that are made by bring the back or hump of the tongue toward the back of the mouth typically get the "dark" pronunciation. For example, ك is made by moving the whole tongue upwards, so كا gets the "light" pronunciation, but ق is made by bringing the hump of the tongue towards the back of the mouth and the tip of the tongue is angled downards, so it gets the "dark" pronunciation for قا.


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## jcorbett09

Ah, thank you for your help. I already did know that there was a difference in pronunciation of "aa" between letters like ك and ق. I have just heard people pronounce "aa" uniformly "dark," such as in "هذا," which would normally take the "light" pronunciation if I'm not mistaken. In other words, for these people, ك and ق are much more similar. 

Another example is the word "قلم". I have heard people pronounce the first two syllables differently, the second syllable being "lighter" than the first. But I have also heard people pronounce the first two syllables almost identically. Which is more common, and are they both accepted?


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## clevermizo

jcorbett09 said:


> Ah, thank you for your help. I already did know that there was a difference in pronunciation of "aa" between letters like ك and ق. I have just heard people pronounce "aa" uniformly "dark," such as in "هذا," which would normally take the "light" pronunciation if I'm not mistaken. In other words, for these people, ك and ق are much more similar.
> 
> Another example is the word "قلم". I have heard people pronounce the first two syllables differently, the second syllable being "lighter" than the first. But I have also heard people pronounce the first two syllables almost identically. Which is more common, and are they both accepted?



Both accepted, I think. It really depends on region and the amount of local dialect "accent" in standard Arabic. Not sure what's really more common across all Arabic speakers or what is considered "truly" standard.

In my case, as a non-native speaker, I'm affected by the Syrian dialect that I'm learning to speak. So I pronounce كتاب in standard Arabic as [kitæ:b] ([æ] is the 'a' in 'cat') and طالب as [Ta:lib] ('a' as in "fall"). As for the short fat7a /a/ I pronounce fairly uniformly as the 'u' in 'up'. This is representative of how I learned Arabic and I think is fairly common, at least among speakers throughout the Levant and Egypt.

On the other hand, I believe Iraqis tend to pronounce all the long [aa]s as the 'a' in f*a*ll. For example, as discussed in this thread.


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## 6aalib

I know the basics about short and long vowels -->  3 short vowels (fatHa, kasra, damma) --> 3 long vowels (ا و ي) stretch out the sound of the short vowels

But I am still not 100% clear on the correct sound of the "long fatHa", or the Alef 'aa' sound.  I think the problem is that many people/dialects use different sounds.  But I want to make sure about the technical correct MSA pronounciation. 

The basic example is usually given:
fatHa is like the 'a' sound in 'cut'
fatHa + Alef is like the 'aa' sound in 'cat'


1.  Can someone please confirm that in these two pronounciations for    مكان     the BOTTOM link is the better MSA pronounciation

http://www.forvo.com/word/مكان/
http://www.forvo.com/word/مَكاني/


2.  Do you agree that after the emphatic consonants (ص ض ط ظ )  the Alef starts to sound more like in the words "lawn", "pawn"

Example:  طاولة
http://www.forvo.com/word/طاولة/

ie. I do not think that is only a dialect pronounciation, it does not sound right to me if that Alef was pronounced like in 'can', but of course please correct me if I am wrong


Shukran


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## vinyljunkie619

1) the two sound the same, except in the bottom link, he says the entire word slowly.  According to the page, the guy is Algerian; since Algerians and Moroccans speak very fast and don't have long vowels, when they speak MSA, or try to be understood outside of Alg/Moroc they slow it down ALOT.  As far as I can tell, they are pronounced the same, just the Imarati guy said it in a normal speed.

Alef/fat7a is always pronounced like in "Bat" or "can" or "tan" except in front of Emphatics where it changes to like in "saw" or "gnaw" or "law"
the Ta Marbou6a sound is more like in "cut", except in Lebanon/Syr/Jor/Palestine where its like "fit" or "bet" and in Southern Egypt where it's more like in "fit" and even "seat"


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## إسكندراني

I think you are looking for the concept of مرقق/مفخم/ممال


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## OsamaAbdullah

All words in links are perfectly correct to my ear, maybe what confusing you is the second link مكاني because he stretched the letter ألف but it's understood. for me it's fine and nothing is wrong with it.

2. I don't agree they would sound like lawn ... for Example: طابق طابع طالب ضارب صارم ظالم


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## 6aalib

wow, I hear a clear difference in how the    كان      is said in those two links

the BOTTOM link is exactly how you say "can" in English, but the TOP link is different.  Its not just the slowness, it is a different sound/pronounciation.

Here is another example for the word    كتاب :

http://www.forvo.com/word/كتَابَ/
http://www.forvo.com/word/كتَابِ/

Again the BOTTOM link is the "can" sound, and I think that is supposed to be the pronounciation in MSA 

For the example with طاولة
that Alef is CLEARLY not the "can" sound in English, its the "lawn" sound


إسكندراني said:


> I think you are looking for the concept of مرقق/مفخم/ممال


sorry my friend I do not see these words in my books and I put these words into google translate, but I dont understand what you mean....


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## vinyljunkie619

Reread what I posted (especially about Emphatics)
After rehearing the first two links, there is a slight difference but not much.  Keep in mind that nobody really "speaks" MSA so in all honesty correct pronunciation is debatable, as it pertains to vowels.  It's correct words and grammar that are more important in MSA; most people use their own accents when speaking MSA.  Egyptians will still use a hard G, Lebanese still use the same vowel sounds, etc.


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## إسكندراني

6aalib said:


> sorry my friend I do not see these words in my books and I put these words into google translate, but I dont understand what you mean....


Ok here is a summary,
The letters you mentioned as sounding like lawn - amongst others - cause the following fatHa or 'alif to have a 'dark' property called تفخيم and are called حروف مفخمة
All other letters maintain the standard sound ترقيق and are called حروف مرققة
Some readings روايات of the qur'an make this 'standard' sound lighter than usual, as do certain dialects, a quality known as إمالة - the alif is perceived to become closer to a yaa'
Finally, please don't mention google translate on here again.


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## 6aalib

إسكندراني said:


> Ok here is a summary,
> The letters you mentioned as sounding like lawn - amongst others - *cause  the following fatHa or 'alif to have a 'dark' property* *called تفخيم and  are called حروف مفخمة*
> All other letters maintain the standard sound ترقيق and are called حروف مرققة
> Some readings روايات of the qur'an make this 'standard' sound lighter  than usual, as do certain dialects, a quality known as إمالة - the alif  is perceived to become closer to a yaa'
> Finally, please don't mention google translate on here again.





vinyljunkie619 said:


> *Alef/fat7a is always pronounced like in "Bat" or "can" or "tan" except  in front of Emphatics where it changes to like in "saw" or "gnaw" or  "law"*
> the Ta Marbou6a sound is more like in "cut", except in  Lebanon/Syr/Jor/Palestine where its like "fit" or "bet" and in Southern  Egypt where it's more like in "fit" and even "seat"
> 
> Reread what I posted (especially about Emphatics)
> After rehearing the first two links, there is a slight difference but not much.  Keep in mind that nobody really "speaks" MSA so in all honesty correct pronunciation is debatable, as it pertains to vowels.  It's correct words and grammar that are more important in MSA; *most people use their own accents when speaking MSA*.  Egyptians will still use a hard G, Lebanese still use the same vowel sounds, etc.


those are very helpful explanations, Shukran Jazeelan.  I think that answers my questions, the Alef is supposed to be the "can" sound and the emphatic letters can change it.  Since I am learning new words it is helpful to have that more clear.

Do you guys know where I can find more details on which letters are Emphatics or change the Alef sound?

I think these are called the emphatic letters          ص ض ط ظ

but for effecting the Alef sound I think it also includes     ق ح ع

and I want to listen to more words or check a book for other letters  (eg.   خ  غ  )


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## vinyljunkie619

none of the dialects I speak really use Qaf, so I can't speak much on it, but as for ح, ع, غ, خ, it's still like in "Can" "Bat" or "tan"


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## Ihsiin

I won't stand for any of this "_supposed_ to sound" nonsense. The realisations of vowels in particular, as the modern manifestations of Classical Arabic go, are consistently dependent on dialect.
I personally pronounce alif the same in all environments, as the "a" in English "f*a*ther" (Londoner accent).


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## vinyljunkie619

To me that sounds weird... but as long as you're understood....


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## cherine

Hi,

There's a previous thread very similar to this, about the pronunciation of the fat7a. You may be interested in checking it. (here).


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## إسكندراني

6aalib, the word 'can' is pronounced in different ways in the various parts of the UK, and I don't even know which country you're from!


Ihsiin said:


> I won't stand for any of this "_supposed_ to sound" nonsense. The realisations of vowels in particular, as the modern manifestations of Classical Arabic go, are consistently dependent on dialect.
> I personally pronounce alif the same in all environments, as the "a" in English "f*a*ther" (Londoner accent).


The only people who opt for universal تفخيم in my experience are Persian speakers. Even Iraqis don't do تفخيم everywhere. But in any case, the op clearly is enquiring about the standard rule, which is essentially the classical rule, which is essentially the rule taught as مخارج الحروف والتجويد - a topic which is not mysterious or specialist-only as I have mentioned on here before. I do not open any Arabic news report / documentary / voice over expecting to hear the word 'mAkAAn' with an alif mufakhkhamah.


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## 6aalib

إسكندراني said:


> 6aalib, the word 'can' is pronounced in different ways in the various parts of the UK, and I don't even know which country you're from!



LOL I mean mean "can" in "American English".  When I am writing the "can sound", I mean this:  (This is what I understand is the classical/textbook/standard-case pronounciation of Alef).
http://www.forvo.com/word/مَكاني/

This word  مكان is the best example for me because it has the letters كان , which also spell "can" in English, and this is a word that many sources use to describe the long fatHa (Alef).

This link has a small difference if you listen to the كان  part, probably that is how they say "can" in the UK, etc.
http://www.forvo.com/word/مكان/


This is another example using كتاب:
Classical pronounciation:
http://www.forvo.com/word/كتَابِ/
I think this has a smaaaaaaaal difference: 
http://www.forvo.com/word/كتَابَ/

(but there are other better examples/words out there, this is the only one I could find right now)


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For the Emphatic letters I think there is no clear answer about which letters change the sound of the Alef.  For my level I think the best simple guideline I will follow (as VinylJunkie mentioned): Emphatic letters ص ض ط ظ make the Alef into the "lawn" sound, and mostly everything else keeps the "can" sound.   The other thread that Cherine posted mentions many other letters and cases where the Alef sound changes and so it is hard to make a clear rule about it.

In the other thread they mentioned the word ايّام, but I also find in the word سيّارة   This has no Emphatic letters but I think most people including me will not say this Alef as the "can" sound that I put in the top.   
Example:
http://www.forvo.com/word/سيارة/


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## إسكندراني

ر is an emphatic (if that's what we're calling them) in eastern dialects.


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## vinyljunkie619

إسكندراني said:


> ر is an emphatic (if that's what we're calling them) in eastern dialects.


In some words it isn't; It really depends.
It's emphatic about 75% of the time.


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