# 参加<了>修建大会堂



## L3P

大家好，

Well,I`ve been taught that to make a sentence sound and look complete in Chinese,了 should be put at the very end of it.
But I`ve come across a sentence  (and it wasn`t an answer to a question,but just a narration) 他对她说他以前是建筑工人，参加了修建大会堂。where this rule doesn`t seem to`ve been followed. There`s  indeed quite a few threads about 了 here at the forum,but they`re all about the construction {V + Obj} and none on {V + V  + Obj}.

Hence my questions:

1.instead of a regular  position of 了 after {V + V + Obj}  for completeness,like 他对她说他以前是建筑工人，参加修建大会堂了,can the 了 be put after the first verb like so 他对她说他以前是建筑工人，参加了修建大会堂 to put emphasis on it,like in English 'I did take part in building...'?
2.If not,what would the reason be  behind the position of 了 after the first verb in the sentence at hand?


Thank you.


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## KK_Tse

As sentence particle, 了 appears at the end of a sentence (or to be more exact, at the end of a predicate).
As aspect marker, 了 is a suffix to the verb.

The sentence particle 了 indicates that:

The time plane related to the speaker is affected to the action. (i.e. The action was/is expected to take place)
The action is effectively located on the time plane.
For example:
1.  公车来了。Here comes the bus. (We have been waiting for the bus.)
2.  我看到了，在树后。（I have been trying to see it, and I see it now)

So, 他参加修建大会堂了 can be interpreted as "He has been hesitating, and finally decided to participate in the construction of the great hall".

Incidentally, the negation to this type of sentences is 还没／还没有 (not yet).

The aspect marker 了 indicates that an occurrence of the action is located on the time plane, and that this occurrence is distinguishable/distinguished. By distinguishable/distinguished, we mean that the occurrence has an identify other than just "an occurrence located on the time plane". For example:
3.  这部电影我看过两遍。
4.  这部电影我看了两遍。

A likely context for (3) is: I liked this movie, so I went to watch it twice.
A likely context for (4) is: The movie is too rich. I wanted to understand the details, so I went to watch it again. (i.e. 这部电影我看了两遍，但还是不太明白其中的奥妙).

In (4), 看了两遍 is not just for watching the movie; it is for the purpose of "understanding the details".

You can verify this with other examples containing the aspect marker 了. In one way or another, they must convey the idea that it is not just an occurrence of the action, but an occurrence of consequence. For example:
5.  他去过美国。(He has the experience of 去美国)
6.  他去了美国。(The result is: he is no longer here)
7.  我今天早餐吃饺子。(What I had for my breakfast is 饺子)
8.  我今天早餐吃了六个饺子。(The result is: I am very full)
9.  他对她说他以前是建筑工人，参加过修建大会堂。
10. 他对她说他以前是建筑工人，参加了修建大会堂。

So, in what way (10) is different from (9)?

Incidentally, the negation to sentences with verbs suffixed with the aspect marker 了 is 没／没有.


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## fyl

For such a statement, it is not correct to put 了 at the end.
参加了修建 is not an emphasis. It's not "did do".

Edit: see above for detailed explanation.


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## L3P

Thanks,KK_Tse,it`s a gorgeous explanation! Thanks very much,fyl!
However we`ve slightly digressed from the original question,I`m afraid. It  wasn`t meant to be about the difference between 了 and 过,which I`m more or less aware of as of now.What confuses me is that I`be been taught that if there`s 
a sequence of verbs in a sentence,the aspect particle 了 should be at the very end of such a sequence or after the last verb in the sequence,ex. 他去商店买东西了 'He`s gone to shop'，去买了，但是有没有买到呢？'He went to buy it,but did he buy it?',
他到北京去参观了 - 'He`s gone to visit Beijing',and that it woudn`t be correct to put it after the first verb,like 他去了商店买东西; 
去了买，但是有没有买到呢？; 他到了北京去参观. But in the sentence at hand (他对她说他以前是建筑工人，参加了修建大会堂) it IS after the first verb 参加.So I would appreciate it a lot if someone could help me out of this predicament.

Thanks a lot,again.


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## KK_Tse

Given that the sentence particle 了 and the aspect marker 了 are pronounced and written the same way, what happens when both of them are used in a same sentence? Well, in standard Mandarin, people avoid or simply cannot use both together, for a reason that is quite obvious.

However, in many dialects (especially in the south), these two functions are assigned to 2 different words. For example, in Malaysia and Singapore, where people speak a Mandarin with heavy flavours of Hokkien and Cantonese, you may hear something like 他走了(liao)了(le) which means "He's left" in a context like "You want to seem him? it's too late. He's left."). Here, 了（liao）is the aspect marker and 了（le）the sentence particle.

In standard Mandarin, to express the same thing, one will say 他走了, which can also mean "He's leaving" in a context like "We have been spying on him since last night. Now he is leaving. Let's follow him."

As such, it may confuse Mandarin learners when 了 is used at the end of the sentence: is it the aspect marker or the sentence particle? It depends very much on the context. For example, in 他去商店买东西了, do you see 了 as the aspect marker or the final particle? If it is the former, the sentence would mean "He's gone for shopping", otherwise, it *could* mean something like "He buys things in shops now" in a context like "In the past, he used to go to market only. Now he has changed his habit and started buying things in shops".

Incidentally, people in the south would most likely say 他去了商店买东西 (instead of 他去商店买东西了) to mean "He's gone for shopping".

In a case like 他到北京去参观了, however, it is difficult (though not impossible*) to find a context that could go with the interpretation of the sentence particle. (*It would be much easier if we say "他快要到北京去参观了”, where we have the sentence particle but not the aspect marker 了)

Another source of confusion is the word 到. I don't think it functions as verb in a case like 他到北京去参观了. For me, its function is comparable to that of 把, 跟, or 给 in cases like 他把车卖了, 他跟我解释了, 他给大家买了很多礼物.


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## fyl

L3P said:


> What confuses me is that I`be been taught that if there`s
> a sequence of verbs in a sentence,the aspect particle 了 should be at the very end of such a sequence or after the last verb in the sequence,ex. 他去商店买东西了 'He`s gone to shop'，去买了，但是有没有买到呢？'He went to buy it,but did he buy it?',
> 他到北京去参观了 - 'He`s gone to visit Beijing',and that it woudn`t be correct to put it after the first verb,like 他去了商店买东西;
> 去了买，但是有没有买到呢？; 他到了北京去参观. But in the sentence at hand (他对她说他以前是建筑工人，参加了修建大会堂) it IS after the first verb 参加.So I would appreciate it a lot if someone could help me out of this predicament.


OK. I see the problem now. I was thinking about "verb+了+object" vs "verb+object+了", which is another problem about 了.
For a sequence of verbs, I think it depends on the relationships between the verbs. I'm not sure how grammarians classify the relationships, but according to my intuition (may not be a standard way), there are at least 3 types:
1. The verbs are parallel. For example, 他设计建造了大会堂 (or 他设计'并'建造了大会堂), "he designed *and* built the 大会堂".
In this case, 了 should be put after all the verbs.
2. The second verb is actually the object of the first verb. For example, 他参加了修建大会堂, "he took part in *constructing* the 大会堂". “修建大会堂" is the job that he has 参加-ed, i.e. the object of the verb 参加.
In this case, both 他参加了修建大会堂 and 他参加修建大会堂了 are correct. But their meanings are different. Here only 他参加了修建大会堂 fits the context.
PS: I wouldn't say 他参加修建了大会堂 is completely impossible. But in that case 参加修建 would sound like a whole action, and it is usually not as natural.
3. 去+verb should be different from the above two cases, as far as I can see. It's more like "go to do sth". You can't use this special case to deduce conclusions about the position of 了 in general case.


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## brofeelgood

I find a structure like 参加了修建大会堂 (参加v + 修建v + 大会堂 obj) rather strange.

参加了 / 参与了 + some event ... is more coherent.

- 他参加了大会堂的修建
- 他参加了修建大会堂的工作
- He participated in the construction of the hall


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## Skatinginbc

to brofeelgood.  To me, 他以前是建筑工人, 参加了修建大会堂


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## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> To me, 他以前是建筑工人, 参加了修建大会堂


I think it is hard to define whether this sentence grammatical.
Theoretically, 参加了 should be followed by a noun phrase, not a verb phrase. However, in Chinese, we don't have a strict way to change a verb phrase into a noun phrase. 
I.e., 修建 can mean either “construct” or “construction”.
A verb phrase like 修建大会堂, may either be an action, or refer to the thing.
Verb phrase: 我去修建大会堂。 “I’m going to build the hall.”
Noun phrase: 修建大会堂很难。 “Building the hall is difficult.”

If we treat 修建大会堂 as “building the hall”, then 参加了修建大会堂 may not be wrong, at least acceptable in casual conversations.
But if we want to be 100% correct, we should say 参加了修建大会堂的工作。


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## L3P

非常感谢各位的帮助，受益匪浅！


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## Sylph

The most natural way of expressing the meaning of the sentence in Chinese is "我参加修建了大会堂”.


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## L3P

Sylph said:


> The most natural way of expressing the meaning of the sentence in Chinese is "我参加修建了大会堂”.


Well,I`ve been told so many times at this forum that  'the sentence 我買了書 sounds unfinished,and your audience will wait for you to continue.In fact, it`s not a sentence,but a clause' (ex. this thread).


我说汉语 said:


> I'd like to point out that some of the sentenses are imcomplete [they can be a clause but not an indepandent sentence.].
> 我買了書 do not sounds so natural as in 我买了书就回家了。/我买了书再去找你吧。


I guess in the sentence at hand (他对她说他以前是建筑工人，参加了修建大会堂) it may be the same thing.Does 参加了修建大会堂 sound complete to you (considering the position of 了)?


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## fyl

SuperXW said:


> I think it is hard to define whether this sentence grammatical.


I agree with SuperXW and in fact 参加了修建大会堂 is very natural to my ears.
I understand brofeelgood's suggestions will cause less confusions in grammar and is more widely accepted, and 参加了修建 is pretty much a mainland phrase with more or less some communism/labor/worker flavor.
But 参加+verb(gerund) does exist in Chinese, e.g. 我参加修建的第一个工程是xxx，参加修建大会堂的工人有xxx. I believe these two sentences should have no problems everywhere.



L3P said:


> Well,I`ve been told so many times at this forum that  'the sentence 我買了書 sounds unfinished,and your audience will wait for you to continue.In fact, it`s not a sentence,but a clause' (ex. this thread).


First, if you want to consider the position of 了, there is no structural difference between 参加了修建大会堂 and 参加修建了大会堂. They are both 'verb+了+object' and not 'verb+ojbect+了'. The difference between the two is just what the object is (whether 修建 is a gerund or  参加修建 is one verb). So they follow the same grammar rules (and are the same as 我买了书).

Second, 'verb+了+object' and 'verb+object+了' are both correct structures, and are both complete sentences (definitely not clauses). They have different meanings but are not easy to explain. I don't think the discussion in the thread you quoted claims that 'verb+了+object' are always incomplete (only in some cases they are). It is a very nice thread actually.
In certain contexts, 我买了书 does sound unfinished. In some other context, 我买了书 can be a complete sentence, e.g. A: 回家的路上你买了什么？ B: 我买了书.
For this specific sentence 他对她说他以前是建筑工人，参加了修建大会堂, it is only possible to use the 'verb+了+object' structure. The other structure will be 参加修建大会堂了, which means something different and is not possible to be used here.


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## L3P

Thanks ever so much,again,fyl.


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