# на работе; на работу



## tregina12000

As my understanding stands at the moment, one would say Я живу в Лондоне and Я eду в Лондон but Я на работе and Я eду на работу.  (Please correct this if it is wrong.)

It appears to me that the word "Ha" is used with certain nouns where I would expect to use "B," for instance, работа and площадь.  Is there any rule governing this usage, or is it a matter of sheer memorization to know when or with what words it should be used in this manner?


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## morzh

There is no rhyme or reason to where one uses "на" vs. "в"  when talking about directions (otherwise it is straightwforward mostly: ""на" is "on/upon/at" and "в" is "in/into/within").

You might be aware of a falling-out between Ukrainians and Russians, where the Russian tradition requires saying "На Украине", and Ukrainians, finding this debasing, demand that Russians use "В Украине". At some point there was an attempt of doing so, but recently "Expert Reference Services of Russian Language" (Справочная информационная служба русского языка "Грамота") advocate using "На", as this is the tradition, and has nothing to do with politics.

Having said that, one just has to remember how it is.

So

When saying: "I am going to ...." - 

Moscow - В Москву.
Ukraine - на Украину (again - this is still a subject of arguments)
Kuban - на Кубань.
Cuba - на Кубу.
Resort - на курорт
Jamaica - На Ямайку.
Canaries - На Канары.

Italy/England/Germany/most of non-small-island countries -В Италию/ в Англию/ во Францию / в Германию.

Most cities also - "в" (В Москву/ в Ригу).
But: "На Манхэттен" (to Manhattan).

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From here one can see that going to a small island place (Manhattan, Jamaica, Canaries, Mallorca, Cuba) will command "Нa".
Going to most cities/countries (besides islands above) will command "В".

And going places other than geographical locations is:

To work - на работу.
By the same token, most places where things are done/performed, and the places are open type:
To Construction site - на стройку.
To carnival - на карнавал.
To demonstration - на демонстрацию.
To garage sale - на гараж-сэйл.
To a market - на  рынок.
To a game/stadium - на игру/на стадион
To a party - на вечеринку

  (not without exceptions)
But  going to places which are inside the closed buildings/spaces mostly requires "в":

To an opera - в оперу
To a theater - в театр
To a circus - в цирк
To school - в школу.



And then there are traditions.


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## tregina12000

Understanding when to use certain prepositions has been a difficult point for some time now.  This makes it clearer. Thank you for such a comprehensive answer.  It would be nice to be able to print this page out for reference!

Is it correct to understand that these usages also apply in the prepositional?  For instance:

на рынке  for  in/at a market

(I am just learning about 'mobile' vowels, so that word stood out to me from your list.)


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## Garbuz

Please, also consider this:
Танки шли *на* Москву.
Атака *на* город не удалась.

"На" would be used if military operations are meant. 

I think you've touched upon one of the most complex and interesting problems. I've read some research on it. You wouldn't imagine how sophisticated it is - I mean describing semantic differences between 'на' and 'в'.


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## Selyd

*Garbuz:*
_Танки шли *на* Москву.
"На" would be used if military operations are meant. 
_If the fact of a direction is specified only - 
*Танки шли в Москву.
*


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## Sobakus

tregina12000 said:


> Is it correct to understand that these usages also apply in the prepositional?



They surely do.


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## morzh

Not just a military operation: any ominous/disastrous/bad-weather etc.

Танки идут на Москву.
На Москву надвигаются тучи/ураган/стихийное бедствие.

However, as for "direction only" and "танки шли В Москву":

Поезд на Москву.
Но: Поезд идет в Москву.
Автобус на Нижний.
Автобус идет В Нижний.

So, as the way of showing direction changes, so does the preposition.


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## rushalaim

I agree with *morzh*! I hate politics! So I stubbornly always say "еду *на* Украину", "живу *на* Украине"... (This is correct russian)


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## tregina12000

So if I use the grammatically correct phrase, I will be understood without starting a riot?


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## rushalaim

tregina12000 said:


> So if I use the grammatically correct phrase, I will be understood without starting a riot?


It depends... 
If you will talk with ukrainian and you'll say "поеду на Украину", the most modern ukranians (young) will say: "Be politically correct!".
And you will become a "riot" in ukranian eyes...

But russian philologists definitely deny ukranian construction "в Украину"!
Scientists insist on "*на* Украину"!

Though... russian PM (when he wants to produce an impression at the whole Ukraine) says what they want to hear.


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## morzh

Unless you find yourself making a public speech during a UN session, I don't think anyone (including Ukrainians) give a hoot whether you use "на" or "в".


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## rushalaim

morzh said:


> I don't think anyone (including Ukrainians) give a hoot whether you use "на" or "в".


My own experience shows quite opposite. When I said "на Украину", ukrainians were dissatisfied and told about it.


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## morzh

Were there many of them against one of you?  

You know, someone said "a language is a dialect with an army and navy". So, as long as there is no army and navy...


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## tregina12000

Well, I know a few Ukrainians personally, and none of them possess either army or navy, so I'll go try it out and see what happens.  If I'm not back in a few days, you'll all know what happened! 

In the interest of staying on topic, I must admit that I don't understand the difference between the two expressions, or why some would find Ha offensive, unless there is some deeper meaning to the expression that is either implied, cultural or just plain "lost in translation."  So what am I missing?


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## morzh

That I can explain.

See, in Russian when someone says "на" i/o "в" when talking of a geographical location, the implicit meaning of it is, that this person refers to "an outskirt", a real remote province. Somewhat degrading, or so it can be perceived.

In Russian "outskirt" is "окраина". Notice the similarity between "Окраина" and "Украина".

So, further goes the thought, Russians, saying "На Украине", still regard it as an outskirt province of the Russian Empire, i/o treating it as full-fledged sovereign state, which now it is. Hence the request to say "В Украине", same as we say "В Америке, в Германии, в Узбекистане, в Таджикистане, в Финляндии, в Австралии".

"На", as we said here before, is also used towards islands - "На Кубе, на Ямайке", and now, that we have sizable Russian population in the Big Apple - "На Манхэттене". Again, talking about something relatively small and isolated. If it is large, like Australia - it is then "В Австралии".

So, what they (those trying to demand linguistic respect) forget is, that a language tradition, especially venerated by academic recognition of that usage as the literary standard, is very hard to change. And that, unless openly offensive (there are examples, but even then....), no one has the right to dictate to the whole country how to use their language. It is up to Russians. It is language. It is not political.

I may try to go to Poland and start advocating for them to change the name they use for certain ethnicity (like mine), because in Russian language to my ethnicity it sounds offensive.

I think they will tell me where to go with my suggestions.
And they will be absolutely right to do so.
This is why I am not doing this.


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## tregina12000

OK, thank you, this explains quite a bit.

This whole "Ha/B" issue is turning out to be quite the minefield!


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## rushalaim

morzh said:


> That I can explain.
> 
> See, in Russian when someone says "на" i/o "в" when talking of a geographical location, the implicit meaning of it is, that this person refers to "an outskirt", a real remote province. Somewhat degrading, or so it can be perceived.
> 
> In Russian "outskirt" is "окраина". Notice the similarity between "Окраина" and "Украина".
> 
> So, further goes the thought, Russians, saying "На Украине", still regard it as an outskirt province of the Russian Empire...


I agree with *morzh*! And I'll notice yet that the root of the word "окраина" is "*край*" (*edge*; brink; land; region). And "на краЮ"="у крАя"="на окрАине"="на украИне". Or "Cербска крAина" (serbian).
For example you cannot say "в краю стола", but only "на краю стола". (however "в краю родном"! )

Notice that this ukrainian independence ideolody lasts 20 years more. Ideology was in their schools. So now there is the whole generation of young ukranians with spoiled russian language, unfortunately.

Conclusion: "в Украине"-wrong, "*на Украине*"-correct.


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## dec-sev

morzh said:


> Italy/England/Germany/most of non-small-island countries -В Италию/ в Англию/ во Францию / в Германию.


 What made you say "most"? Are there any exceptions? I've gone over the countries I know  and can't think of any I would use someting other than "в" with.


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## Orlin

dec-sev said:


> what made you say "most"? Are there any exceptions? I've gone over the countries i know  and can't think of any i would use someting other than "в" with.


 
Может быть Косово: если я не ошибаюсь, по-сербски говорится "*На* Косову" и может быть, так и по-русски.


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## morzh

dec-sev said:


> What made you say "most"? Are there any exceptions? I've gone over the countries I know  and can't think of any I would use someting other than "в" with.




It is my manner of making statements. I never say "all" or "none", unless I do know the exact rule and can confirm it. Language is not the Ohm's law. This is why I said "most". I do think it should be "all", but, again - I am usually conservative in my statements, this is it.

As the rigid rules go: now, speaking of small Island countries, explain to me, why we say "В Исландии", Iceland being 103 sq. km. and "На Кубе", Cuba being 109 sq. km. Since this rule is ot rigid, the opposite at least in theory also may not be rigid (Ukraine is the known exception), and I am too lazy to go through all countries to verify this, plus I don't even know all the countries.

Again, I agree, that it is probably "all" and not "most".


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## dec-sev

morzh said:


> It is my manner of making statements. I never say "all" or "none", unless I do know the exact rule and can confirm it. Language is not the Ohm's law. This is why I said "most". I do think it should be "all", but, again - I am usually conservative in my statements, this is it.
> .


Ah, I see your point, but I really thought that there were exceptions. Even such evasive wordings can be confusing. But it's my problem if I couldn't see the meaning behind this hedge device  
@Orlin:
Я живу в Косово
Я еду в Косово.


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## morzh

dec-sev said:


> ah, i see your point, but i really thought that there were exceptions. Even such evasive wordings can be confusing. But it's my problem if i couldn't see the meaning behind this hedge device
> @orlin:
> Я живу в Косово
> Я еду в Косово.



Тем не менее, если искать правило - правила этого найдено не будет. Формально оне нигде не написано. Большинство лингво-сайтов, где я пытался найти хоть что-то, объяснение одно: "запоминайте, ибо понять сие невозможно". Все ссылки на авторов учебников и словарей так же указывают на прецедентную основу употребления этих предлогов, и опять же - с кучей исключений (если острова - есть исключения, полуострова - то же, горная территория, опять же). На Кубани, На Алтае, на Таймыре, в Крыму, в Бангладеш, на Мадагаскаре - острова, горные районы, полуострова - ни правила, ни даже хорошей закономерности.

Вот разве суверенные неостровные государства, кроме Украины.

А дальше можно еще усложнять: В России, но - на Руси.
Много альтернативных народных названий используют на: На Руси, на неметчине, (и прочие "-чины/-щины").

Сложно это.


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## yoysl

Morzh is right -- people have tried for a long time to come up with satisfactory rules to describe the usage of в/на without much success. I found these guidelines in a справочник I have:

Вместо предлога "в" употребляется предлог "на" ...
а) при названиях стран света, а также некоторых географических названиях
(пр. восток, и т.д., Кавказ, Украина, Урал)

б) при отдельных названиях зданий, построек как мест деятельности
(пр. вокзал, фабрика, почта, ферма, станция)

в) при названиях места деятельности (действий) без представления о помещении
(пр. урок, война, курорт, пляж, улица, переход, мороз, воздух, свадьба, остановка, и т.д.)

г) при некоторых других сочетаниях (so much for the rules ...)
(дно, вешалка, гвоздь, крючок, вершина горы, верхушка дерева, шея, ноги ... также "потолок" и "голова" в некоторых случаях)


As for the Ukraine thing, a linguistics professor from МГУ explained to me that it should be "на" because of the "край" root, not because Ukraine was a territory. She made it clear that she really didn't care what they say in Ukraine; this is Russia, and standard Russian uses "на."

Of course, Ukraine isn't just badgering Russia about language use -- they also told the English speaking world that they would no longer like to be "The Ukraine," but simply "Ukraine" (this sounded terribly wrong to me at first, but now I'm used to it).

I'm not sure about in Russian, but in English there actually is precedent for a country altering their name for political reasons. For example, at one point it was standard to call Argentina "The Argentine," Romania used to be called "Rumania" before they realized they were distantly related to the Romans, etc. Also, lots of Central and South Americans are upset that the US calls itself America (Canadians aren't as upset for some reason), though I don't see this changing ever.

Also, what about в кухню vs на кухню? Clearly, на here is standard, but I was also told by a linguist that this is starting to shift over to в.


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## estreets

to yoysl
I always say "на кухню" and "на кухне". I think I will keep saying this during all my life.
But!
I have had a look on the Internet and (oh my God!) they really use this preposition "в"!
I'm upset (although it does not sound weird or terrible for me, just unusual and not nice).


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## rushalaim

The phrase "в кухню" sounds to my ear similar to "в концерт". If I'd hear this (from russian) I'd think about myself : "poor-educated person speaks".


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## morzh

Кухня - it is an interesting animal. Thinking of it (never gave it much tfhought before - I always use "на" and I know that this is recognized as the preferred way), I can see where people who use "в" are coming from.

It is akin to the prior mentioned in this thread "В Москву / На Москву". Not the same exact reasons, but close.

I can see how the same person who would say "Пройдемте на кухню", would also say "внесем плиту в кухню", just because "внести" favors "в", even if it is wrong to use.

Then, according to Gramota, "в vs на" in Russian were competing for a long time, and their usage one vs another is dictated by tradition.


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