# に for the subject in a sentence in the potential form られる?



## Seikun

Hi.
I was wondering if the subject in a sentence in the potential form takes particle に because I have seen it in other expressions, but most of the time it seems to be omitted and only は is used as is the case with verb 分かる or the potential verb 出来る and most lessons don't even mention that, originally, に can be used with those verbs. I'm wondering if perhaps に is being omitted in the case of the potential form られる...

Example:
友達にはスペイン語が話されます。

Thanks in advance.


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## karlalou

Hi,

If you mean "My friends are able to speak Spanish", then it's 私の友達はスペイン語が*話せます*.

話されます is passive voice (or a special polite form（敬語）).

We usually say
彼はスペイン語が話せます
彼はスペイン語ができます
彼はスペイン語が分かります
These are the basic and clear enough without any context.

When you add に and say 彼には, it gets a nuance. A nuance of.., I think, it's comparing, implying 'not other things, but~' or 'not other people, but~'.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

"友達にはスペイン語が話されます。" doesn't make sense to me.

"友達*によって*スペイン語が話されます。（Spanish is spoken by my friend)" can be understood, although it's still an awkward Japanese.


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## karlalou

Well, when someone says ＡにはＢが～されます, the verb is passive voice and the action maker is not mentioned. Just like we say お客様にはランチが供されます, 友達にはスペイン語が話されます is grammatical. It suggests that 'they' speak in Spanish to (my) friend(s). 

However, the OP's question is about potential form.


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## frequency

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> "友達にはスペイン語が話されます。" doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> "友達*によって*スペイン語が話されます。（Spanish is spoken by my friend)" can be understood, although it's still an awkward Japanese.


 
Agree.

Seikun, the potential form of 話す is always 話せる. (*_*)
Unfortunately, yours sounds like _Spanish is spoken to (your) friend_. There's a message or speech to the friend. It's in Spanish.
I mean 話される sounds the passive.　e.g. XYZ島では日本語が話されます。


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## 810senior

友達にはスペイン語が話されます。 doesn't make sense and it sounds unnatural anyway when it is composed in a passive voice. So it means it's okay to simply say 友達はスペイン語を話します。(Karlalou's suggestions as well).


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## kamot

There are two types of verbs regarding potential forms. I think it makes the matter confusing.
(1) 五段活用-verbs ("u-verbs")  ex: 話す(speak), 読む(read)
(2) Other-verbs ("ru-verbs")  ex: 着る(put on), 食べる(eat)

As to 五段活用-verbs, you can obtain potential form by changing it to 下一段活用-verbs.
For example,
話す (話*さ*ない-話*し*ます-話*す*-話*す*とき-話*せ*ば-話*せ*)＝五段活用
==> 話せる (話*せ*ない-話*せ*ます-話*せる*-話*せる*とき-話*せれ*ば-話*せろ*)＝下一段活用
「話す」 means "speak", and 「話せる」 means "*can* speak".
「話せる」 is a verb that consists of one word.
If you use an auxiliary verb "*れる*" with 五段活用-verbs (ex: 「話さ*れる*」), it usually means passive(受身), honorific(尊敬) or spontaneous(自発).


As to other verbs, you can obtain potential form by adding an auxiliary verb "*られる*" after the verb.
For example, 「着る」(verb) + 「*られる*」(auxiliary verb) = 「着*られる*」.
「着る」 means "put on", and 「着*られる*」 means "*can* put on".
「着られる」also means passive(受身), honorific(尊敬) or sponteneous(自発).


Now, let's go back to the original question about "に".
Yes, you can use "に" with potential forms, but potential forms do not always take the form れる/られる.
彼には話*せる* (potential form)
彼には話さ*れる* (not potential form, but passive, honorific or spontaneous form)
彼には着*られる* (potential form)

The nuance of "に" is as karlalou already mentioned in #2.


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## Seikun

Hi.

This question was bothering me for quite some time, but it is good to have it cleared up now.

Regarding られる, I know it is sort of the official potential whereas れる is the colloquial version, right?


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## 810senior

Seikun said:


> Regarding られる, I know it is sort of the official potential whereas れる is the colloquial version, right?



>Hello, that's right.

_I can look it up on my own._
自分でも調べられる
自分でも調べれる (more colloquial)


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## kamot

Seikun said:


> Regarding られる, I know it is sort of the official potential whereas れる is the colloquial version, right?



Yes and no.

When using れる and られる as auxiliary verbs, they both are official. The difference is the type of preceding verbs. "れる" is used after 五段活用-verbs("u-verbs"), while "られる" is used after other verbs("ru-verbs").

However, we use one-word verbs as potential forms for 五段活用-verbs, instead of attaching auxiliary verb "れる", as I mentioned in (1) of #7. (ex: 話す ==> 話せる)
So auxiliary verb "れる" is not used for potential forms.

In case of (2), attaching "られる"(auxiliary verb) is an official potential form. (ex: 着る ==> 着*られる*)
But people often omit "ら" and say "着*れる*". This is grammatically incorrect usage (we call this usage "ら抜き言葉"), but you can regard this as colloquial version of potential form.

Note that in case of ラ行五段活用-verbs, such as 切る(cut) and 曲がる(turn to), the potential forms are one-word __れる (切*れる*, 曲が*れる*). This is a result of the rule (1), and grammatically correct (official). We don't say 切られる,曲がられる for potential forms. (These are passive forms.)


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## frequency

You know,
話す―potential form－話せる only.

食べる―potential form－食べられる.
But 食べられる is the passive, too. This is confusing.

As kamot said, the differences suggested in his (1) and (2) make the differences in their katsuyou.

(1) 話せる・読める　(potential only)
(2)食べられる・着られる (potential and passive)
食べられる・着られる have two aspects, so it's annoying and confusing. This is the reason why we do ら抜き.

Seikun はその大きな魚を食べられます*。
Seikun can eat the big fish.
Seikun はその大きな魚に食べられます。
Seikun will be eaten by the big fish.

To avoid the confusion,
*Seikunはその大きい魚を食べれます。 is practically common to us, as 810 said.


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## Seikun

I got it now.

Thanks for all the answers.


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