# Hindi: द्विजगण का कलरव श्रवण करना ही रुचता था।



## panjabigator

महादेव प्रसाद सेठ साहूकार वंश में उत्पन्न हो व्यापारी गाधी पर बैठने पर भी फलों से लदे रसिक रसाल-जैसे थे अपने फल लुटाकर द्विजगण का कलरव श्रवण करना ही रुचता था। From "Apni Khabar" by Pande Bechan Ugr.

I'm not sure where to begin. I guess I understand all the words but it's not making sense in the end. This is an embarrassingly bad translation.

Ancestrally, Mahadev Prasad may have been born a moneylender, but he upon sitting he was so jolly that after stealing his own fruit...

द्विजगण I understand to mean "double." 
कलरव means "murmer."
श्रवण has to do with "sound" or "acoustics."

And रुचना means "to be appeasing," I think. Any help here? I've been stumped for some time.


----------



## marrish

This word I can't comprehend:  गाधी. Is it sure it should be spelt like this?


----------



## greatbear

"gaadhii" is same as "gaddii" - see Platts' entry here: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.7:1:593.platts 

However, Platts doesn't mention in this entry the most commonly received sense of "gaddii", that of a merchant's "seat", that is, the cash counter.

The original sentence's Hindi seems suspect to me in the meanwhile: so making sense of the sentence seems impossible to me. However, for standalone words, द्विजगण means the upper castes; कलरव is usually used for the sweet chatter of birds (and thus for any sweet murmur); and श्रवण means hearing. Here's the entry for the last word you asked for:
*रुचना*  क्रि० अ० [सं० रुप+हिं० ना (प्रत्य०)] रुचि के अनुकूल होना । अच्छा जान पड़ना । भला लगना । प्रिय लगना 
Thus the word means "being suitable to taste, being pleasing".


----------



## panjabigator

Thanks Greatbear and Marrish. Greatbear Sahib, what seems suspect to you?


----------



## greatbear

panjabigator said:


> Greatbear Sahib, what seems suspect to you?



The flow. Also, I don't see the connection between sentence 1 and sentence 2: someone who is रसिक रसाल isn't really a person who would like to hear the sermons/chants/whatever of Brahmins (which द्विजगण seems to mean here). In addition, which fruits are being wasted? Something seems to be missing here; besides, good writing is lucid, not so loaded with metaphors.

Meanwhile, the sense of the sentence is like this: "Even after being born to the seat of a moneylender, merchant Mahadev Prasad was bursting with life like juicy fruits. He used to like hearing Brahmins' harmonious chants through wasting away his fruits."


----------



## panjabigator

I read the sentence over a number of times and I thought I must have been missing something. I'm relieved to see you've come up with something bizarre as well!


----------



## marrish

mahaadev prasaad seTh saahuukaar vaNsh meN utpann ho vyaapaarii gaadhii pat baiThne par bhii phaloN se lade rasik rasaal -jaise the apne phal luTaakar dvijgaNR kaa kalrav shravaNR karnaa hii ruchtaa thaa.

Mahadev Prasad may have even been a businessman born into a clan of seTh bankers but he used to have his fruits plundered like a fruit-ladden luscious mango tree and have only liking for listening to Brahmins' murmur.


Despite him hailing from a seTh bankers' lineage and even having held the post of a trader, Mahadev Prasad was like a fruit-ladden luscious mango tree, used to give his fruits away and take interest solely in listening to the murmuring of the Brahmins.


----------



## greatbear

marrish said:


> mahaadev prasaad seTh saahuukaar vaNsh meN utpann ho vyaapaarii gaadhii pat baiThne par bhii phaloN se lade rasik rasaal -jaise the apne phal luTaakar dvijgaNR kaa kalrav shravaNR karnaa hii ruchtaa thaa.
> 
> Mahadev Prasad may have even been a businessman born into a clan of seTh bankers but he used to have his fruits plundered like a fruit-ladden luscious *mango* tree and have only liking for listening to Brahmins' murmur.
> 
> 
> Despite him hailing from a seTh bankers' lineage and even having held the post of a trader, Mahadev Prasad was like a fruit-ladden luscious *mango *tree, used to give his fruits away and take interest solely in listening to the murmuring of the Brahmins.



Your first translation of this odd sentence seems wrong to me; the second is closer but still a bit off the mark. Where do you read "mango" in the original? I can't find any mangoes there. Also, mango fruits can be luscious, not the mango tree!


----------



## marrish

panjabigator said:


> [...]Greatbear Sahib, what seems suspect to you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greatbear said:
> 
> 
> 
> The flow. Also, I don't see the connection between sentence 1 and sentence 2: someone who is रसिक रसाल isn't really a person who would like to hear the sermons/chants/whatever of Brahmins (which द्विजगण seems to mean here). In addition, which fruits are being wasted? *Something seems to be missing here*; besides, good writing is lucid, not so loaded with metaphors.
> 
> *Meanwhile, the sense of the sentence is like this: "Even after being born to the seat of a moneylender, merchant Mahadev Prasad was bursting with life like juicy fruits. He used to like hearing Brahmins' harmonious chants through wasting away his fruits."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> panjabigator said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read the sentence over a number of times and I thought I must have been missing something. I'm relieved to see you've *come up with something bizarre as well*!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




greatbear said:


> marrish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mahadev Prasad may have even been a businessman born into a clan of seTh bankers but he used to have his fruits plundered like a fruit-ladden luscious *mango* tree and have only liking for listening to Brahmins' murmur.
> Despite him hailing from a seTh bankers' lineage and even having held the post of a trader, Mahadev Prasad was like a fruit-ladden luscious *mango* tree, used to give his fruits away and take interest solely in listening to the murmuring of the Brahmins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your first translation of this *odd sentence* seems *wrong* to me; the second is *closer* but still a bit* off the mark*. Where do you read "mango" in the original? I can't find any mangoes there. Also, mango fruits can be luscious, not the mango tree!
Click to expand...


Gentlemen, if we are in the mood of oddity contest then nothing holds me from joining you. I'd give both of your creations the top places, which they may share ex aequo. They are hillarious! 

Greatbear, before I say anything, could you please say why the first translation seems plainly wrong and also disclose what would be OK and to *what* it is closer? Is it the one presented by you?


----------



## greatbear

marrish said:


> Gentlemen, if we are in the mood of oddity contest then nothing holds me from joining you. I'd give both of your creations the top places, which they may share ex aequo. They are hillarious!
> 
> Greatbear, before I say anything, could you please say why the first translation seems plainly wrong and also disclose what would be OK and to *what* it is closer? Is it the one presented by you?



Well, since "hillarious" isn't a word I know in English, so I can't even comment on that. I don't understand your tendency to not answer what is asked of you, though: where did you find mangoes? Here is your first translation below and the reasons for it being plainly wrong are highlighted in bold and underlines, if you can pick them:

_Mahadev Prasad may have even been a businessman born into a clan of *seTh  bankers* but he used to have his fruits plundered like a fruit-*ladden  *luscious *mango *tree and have only liking for listening to Brahmins'  murmur._

The flow of English is extremely bad as well, and the fruit plundering and listening to chants of Brahmins aren't independent actions A and B, as seems the case in your translation above. Where on earth did you find bankers and mangoes though in the original? How can you leave the word "seTh" in English as well, and that too making it an adjective? How can a tree be luscious?

Your second translation again repeats "mangoes" and again makes the mistake of saying "murmuring of Brahmins": it's obvious that you don't understand the meaning of the word "kalrav" in different contexts.

If you don't want to learn and rather create some kind of "contest" of whose translation is closer, then it's your choice. I am replying here simply to help the ones for whom Hindi may not be a first language and to learn. My duty was to point out mistakes in your translation so that other new learners do not get erroneous meanings of words, phrases and sentences.


----------



## marrish

Having said that I'd liked to answer to the question after expressing a view on your endeavours in this thread which I said were *hilarious*! This in response to your ''wrong'' and ''off the mark''. As only this sort of ''precise'' judgments have been passed in this thread up to now, including ''bizarre'' about your translation, I have not been considering it be necessary to give you some explanation about the sentence first.

I'm not aiming at literary translation and my English may leave room for improvement but what I have suggested are two draft attempts towards understanding this sentence so if one discards, without giving any clear reason, the sincere effort at being helpful then I don't think a meaningful exchange of ideas and working further on this sentence can take place.

The character of your remarks is obvious: "your tendency to not answer what is asked of you, plainly wrong, highlighted in bold and underlines, if you can pick them, extremely bad as well, Where on earth did you find bankers and mangoes, the mistake , it's obvious that you don't understand".

Maybe I don't understand _kalrav_ in some specific context so I would profit from hearing more on it.
Should you be concerned about other members you'd better offer your explanation to the sentence instead.

For everybody: I found the mangoes on the three! I mean it!


----------



## greatbear

marrish said:


> As only this sort of ''precise'' judgments have been passed in this thread up to now, including ''bizarre'' about your translation, I have not been considering it be necessary to give you some explanation about the sentence first.



LOL! You do need to work on your English so that we don't have any future misunderstandings. panjabigator didn't term my translation as "bizarre"! Rather, both of us found the Hindi original sentence to be odd/bizarre, lacking something, which is what panjabigator was referring to!

I am not asking for a literary translation, but when you introduce foreign elements like "mangoes" and "bankers", then it does not even remain a translation. If you were trying to learn Hindi and hence make your own draft translations, you should indicate so alongwith your translations.


----------



## marrish

greatbear said:


> LOL! You do need to work on your English so that we don't have any future misunderstandings. panjabigator didn't term my translation as "bizarre"! Rather, both of us found the Hindi original sentence to be odd/bizarre, lacking something, which is what panjabigator was referring to!
> 
> I am not asking for a literary translation, but when you introduce foreign elements like "mangoes" and "bankers", then it does not even remain a translation. If you were trying to learn Hindi and hence make your own draft translations, you should indicate so alongwith your translations.



I have the impression that you're not the author of the OP so I don't feel like providing you with any translation. You are free to explain your ''bursting with life like juicy fruits'' before resorting to personal attacks. Believe me, there are no foreign elements, mangoes are really _desii. _I keep an open mind and would like to deepen my understanding of Hindi so I hope that someone who *does have* knowledge of this language can explain this sentence better. For the moment, you haven't. Your translation doesn't help a lot.

Unfortunately I had relied upon your suggestion regarding  द्विजगण 


> द्विजगणmeans the upper castes; Brahmins (which द्विजगण seems to mean here)


 !!!


----------



## marrish

Previously I'd come up with two attempts and they are not supposed to be taken as a final ''translation''. I hadn't intended it and that is why I gave more options. When I didn't understand a word I had  asked a question. I hoped we could come up with more. This sentence can be translated in several ways and we may discuss the meaning of every word in it and then look for possibilities in idiomatic English but I think I've done my job for the moment. Just increasing my keyboard's sensibility can help me with English but for Hindi, the sense of my translations is right so I can teach you a lesson. Let me answer the OP, to the joy of the surgeons amongst us, by 'dissecting' it:



महादेव प्रसाद सेठ
_mahaadev prasaad seTh_साहूकार वंश में_
saahuukaar vaNsh meN_उत्पन्न हो_
utpann ho_व्यापारी गाधी पर बैठने पर भी_
vyaapaarii gaadhii par baiThne par bhii_फलों से लदे _
phaloN se lade_रसिक रसाल-जैसे थे,_
rasik rasaal jaise the,_Mahadev Prasad Sethinto a bankers’ clanmay have been borneven having assumed the position of a businessman/traderfruit-ladenwas like a impassioned mango tree?अपने फल_ 
apne phal___लुटा कर_
luTaa kar___द्विजगण का_
dvijgaNR kaa___कलरव_
karlav___श्रवण करना ही रुचता था.
_shravaNR karnaa hii ruchtaa thaa._its fruits(used to) let plunder, give away, ....of the birdschirpingonly listening to was of interest/pleasure


We can continue endlessly with alternative meanings because the problem is that we don't know what the immediate context is.
Re ? - I think the only logical possibility is that something is missing here and I can't think of anything else than _jinheN, jin ko_.


----------



## marrish

greatbear said:


> The flow. Also, I don't see the connection between sentence 1 and sentence 2: someone who is रसिक रसाल isn't really a person who would like to hear the sermons/chants/whatever of Brahmins (which द्विजगण seems to mean here). In addition, which fruits are being wasted? Something seems to be missing here; besides, good writing is lucid, not so loaded with metaphors.
> 
> Meanwhile, the sense of the sentence is like this: "Even after being born to the seat of a moneylender, merchant Mahadev Prasad was bursting with life like juicy fruits. He used to like hearing Brahmins' harmonious chants through wasting away his fruits."



There is only one word missing and the flow is otherwise perfect, IMO. If one doesn't see something one should think of it or use a bit of imagination - the missing connection between the first clause and the second can be _jinheN_. There is no sermon, no chants, nothing of Brahmins there. These are the mango fruits. After having criticized the writing style you went on to criticize the translations but I find this sentence is lucid and well written. There is only one metaphor which is very clear.

What is the meaning of ''to be born to the seat''? Is it good English? I've thought one can be born to a parent.


----------



## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Previously I'd come up with two attempts and they are not supposed to be taken as a final ''translation''. I hadn't intended it and that is why I gave more options. When I didn't understand a word I had  asked a question. I hoped we could come up with more. This sentence can be translated in several ways and we may discuss the meaning of every word in it and then look for possibilities in idiomatic English but I think I've done my job for the moment. Just increasing my keyboard's sensibility can help me with English but for Hindi, the sense of my translations is right so I can teach you a lesson. Let me answer the OP, to the joy of the surgeons amongst us, by 'dissecting' it:
> 
> 
> 
> महादेव प्रसाद सेठ
> _mahaadev prasaad seTh_साहूकार वंश में_
> saahuukaar vaNsh meN_उत्पन्न हो_
> utpann ho_व्यापारी गाधी पर बैठने पर भी_
> vyaapaarii gaadhii par baiThne par bhii_फलों से लदे _
> phaloN se lade_रसिक रसाल-जैसे थे,_
> rasik rasaal jaise the,_Mahadev Prasad Sethinto a bankers’ clanmay have been borneven having assumed the position of a businessman/traderfruit-ladenwas like a impassioned mango tree?अपने फल_
> apne phal_लुटा कर_
> luTaa kar_द्विजगण का_
> dvijgaNR kaa_कलरव_
> karlav_श्रवण करना ही रुचता था.
> _shravaNR karnaa hii ruchtaa thaa._its fruits(used to) let plunder, give away, ....of the birdschirpingonly listening to was of interest/pleasure
> 
> 
> We can continue endlessly with alternative meanings because the problem is that we don't know what the immediate context is.
> Re ? - I think the only logical possibility is that something is missing here and I can't think of anything else than _jinheN, jin ko_.



marrish SaaHib, if I may take the liberty of making use of your translations and putting them together in a format that makes some sense.

Mahaadev Prasaad SeTh may have had his origins in a banking family, but despite taking up the mantle of a businessman, he resembled a loving mango tree which allows its fruit to be ravaged just for the pleasure of hearing the birds chirping.


----------



## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> marrish SaaHib, if I may take the liberty of making use of your translations and putting them together in a format that makes some sense.
> 
> Mahaadev Prasaad SeTh may have had his origins in a banking family, but despite taking up the mantle of a businessman, he resembled a loving mango tree which allows its fruit to be ravaged just for the pleasure of hearing the birds chirping.



This is what this sentence means, Qureshpor SaaHib. You would get good marks in a foreign language paper.


----------



## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> Mahaadev Prasaad SeTh may have had his origins in a banking family, but despite taking up the mantle of a businessman, he resembled a loving mango tree which allows its fruit to be ravaged just for the pleasure of hearing the birds chirping.



You forgot that द्विजगण can't be birds.

@marrish - I have no need to respond to your "dissections", since you haven't done it properly ("sahukaar" means bankers?; and many more things), but the problem with the sentence isn't that of mere grammar, some missing "jinheN". The issue is a much deeper, logical one: the image of a "rasik" and "fruit-laden" person is that of a "bhogii" person - someone highly materialistic and even hedonistic, someone who appreciates material pleasures a lot. The next sentence tells us that the same person rather liked to hear Brahmins' mantras/sermons/chants (since Brahmins cannot produce sweet chirps, the usual meaning of "kalrav" otherwise - also used for the sweet murmurings of a river) - how to assemble these two contradictory pieces of information?


----------



## marrish

greatbear said:


> You forgot that द्विजगण can't be birds.
> 
> @marrish - I have no need to respond to your "dissections", since you haven't done it properly ("sahukaar" means bankers?; and many more things), but the problem with the sentence isn't that of mere grammar, some missing "jinheN". The issue is a much deeper, logical one: the image of a "rasik" and "fruit-laden" person is that of a "bhogii" person - someone highly materialistic and even hedonistic, someone who appreciates material pleasures a lot. The next sentence tells us that the same person rather liked to hear Brahmins' mantras/sermons/chants (since Brahmins cannot produce sweet chirps, the usual meaning of "kalrav" otherwise - also used for the sweet murmurings of a river) - how to assemble these two contradictory pieces of information?



What does _saahuukaar_ then mean?

द्विजगण does mean ''birds''. If we proceed with the ''dissection'', it is originally 'born twice' = अंडज. Of course it has taken the meaning of Brahmins and higher castes (one may not agree). I'm not sure if ''birds'' is the right meaning here because we don't have context of course, but you can't just categorically say that it can't be birds. My understanding of the Hindi language tells me it is.


----------



## greatbear

"Sahuukaar" means a money lender, though the word can also be used for any rich merchant in a generic sense. A banker may or may not be a money lender, and a money lender may or may not be a banker.

द्विजगण means "birds"? How did you arrive at that? Of course, its literal meaning is "twice born", and _hence_ it means Brahmins. In addition, if the sentence were to refer to "birds", then it becomes even more bizarre than what it already is!


----------



## Qureshpor

महादेव प्रसाद सेठ साहूकार वंश में उत्पन्न हो व्यापारी गाधी पर बैठने पर भी फलों से लदे रसिक रसाल-जैसे थे jis ke liye अपने फल लुटाकर द्विजगण का कलरव श्रवण करना ही रुचता था

I don't know what's happened to all the Hindi speakers on the forum but here is another humble attempt from me. I am still going to go along with द्विजगण as "birds" since their chirping in a fruit-laden tree fits the whole scenario much better than the Brahmins' chants.
...........................................

Mahaadev Prasaad SeTh may be from a family steeped in money but even after taking the mantle of a trader, he could be compared to a sentimental fruit-laden mango tree that takes great delight in hearing the chirping of the birds that are plundering its fruit!


----------



## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> महादेव प्रसाद सेठ साहूकार वंश में उत्पन्न हो व्यापारी गाधी पर बैठने पर भी फलों से लदे रसिक रसाल-जैसे थे *jis ke liye *अपने फल लुटाकर द्विजगण का कलरव श्रवण करना ही रुचता था
> 
> I don't know what's happened to all the Hindi speakers on the forum but here is another humble attempt from me. I am still going to go along with द्विजगण as "birds" since their chirping in a fruit-laden tree fits the whole scenario much better than the Brahmins' chants.
> ...........................................
> 
> Mahaadev Prasaad SeTh may be from a family steeped in money but even after taking the mantle of a trader, he could be compared to a sentimental fruit-laden mango tree that takes great delight in hearing the chirping of the birds that are plundering its fruit!



I think it is another good translation, Qureshpor SaaHib!

_jis ke liye_ sounds surprising to me; if I may ask it this way: _kis ke liye_?


----------



## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I think it is another good translation, Qureshpor SaaHib!
> 
> _jis ke liye_ sounds surprising to me; if I may ask it this way: _kis ke liye_?



May be I have misunderstood the whole thing marrish SaaHib. kis ke liye? aam ke peR ke liye. Am I talking nonsense? It would be really good if PG SaaHib could resurface and possibly provide a bit more context from the novel from which this sentence has been taken. In place of "jis ke liye", perhaps it should be "jo" (still the mango tree). But I feel one ought to have "jo apnaa phal luTaa kar.." and not "apne phal luTaa kar..".


----------



## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> May be I have misunderstood the whole thing marrish SaaHib. kis ke liye? aam ke peR ke liye. Am I talking nonsense? It would be really good if PG SaaHib could resurface and possibly provide a bit more context from the novel from which this sentence has been taken. In place of "jis ke liye", perhaps it should be "jo" (still the mango tree). But I feel one ought to have "jo apnaa phal luTaa kar.." and not "apne phal luTaa kar..".



Thank you for replying. I can follow your reasoning but the trouble is that the verb is here ruchnaa which goes like this: x mujhe ruchtaa hai - I take pleasure of x, unheN ruchtaa hai, us ko bhii ruchtaa ho gaa. So it could be jis ko while jo or jis ke liye seems unlikely to function in this situation.

I wouldn't also say 'apnaa phal' for a mango tree with a single fruit wouldn't qualify as fruit-laden.


----------



## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> Thank you for replying. I can follow your reasoning but the trouble is that the verb is here ruchnaa which goes like this: x mujhe ruchtaa hai - I take pleasure of x, unheN ruchtaa hai, us ko bhii ruchtaa ho gaa. So it could be jis ko while jo or jis ke liye seems unlikely to function in this situation.
> 
> I wouldn't also say 'apnaa phal' for a mango tree with a single fruit wouldn't qualify as fruit-laden.



Thanks for the correction, marrish SaaHib.


----------



## marrish

greatbear said:


> द्विजगण means "birds"? How did you arrive at that? Of course, its literal meaning is "twice born", and _hence_ it means Brahmins. In addition, if the sentence were to refer to "birds", then it becomes even more bizarre than what it already is!



This is the meaning according to Platts:

_*dvi-ja, vulg. dvij, adj. & s.m. Twice-born;
*—a man of any one of the first three castes of the Hindūs (but particularly a Brāhman), whose investiture with the sacred thread at the age of puberty constitutes, religiously and metaphorically, his second birth; 
*—any oviparous animal (as a bird, snake, &c.)
*_


----------



## marrish

marrish said:


> This word I can't comprehend: गाधी. Is it sure it should be spelt like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greatbear said:
> 
> 
> 
> "gaadhii" is same as "gaddii" - see Platts' entry here: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.7:1:593.platts
> 
> However, Platts doesn't mention in this entry the most commonly received sense of "gaddii", that of a merchant's "seat", that is, the cash counter.
Click to expand...


greatbear, you were right to tell the meaning, however Platts doesn't mention ''_gaadhii_'' and justly so! I've had a look in the copy of the original text and it is ''_*gaadii*_'', not ''_gaadhii_'' as in the OP.

The mystery of the missing word is also solved - there is _*jinheN*_ in print.

Here is more context for everyone's reading pleasure: 

महादेव प्रसाद सेठ साहूकार वंश में उत्पन्न हो व्यापारी *गादी* पर बैठने पर भी फलों से लदे रसिक *रसाल*-जैसे थे *जिन्हें *अपने फल लुटाकर *द्विजगण *का कलरव श्रवण करना ही रुचता था।

लेकिन आदमी का सुख विधना को कहाँ सुहाता है! मौसम बदला, *फल झड़े*, *द्विज-दल उड़े* - न स्वर, न गान, न मण्डली, न कलरव. अप्रत्याशित पतझड़ आया, महादेव सेठ-रूपी *रसाल अकाल ही सूख गया*. पुण्य प्रकाशक दिवंगत महादेव प्रसाद सेठ का चरित्र परम उदात्त, जिसके लिए पन्ना नहीं पोथी चाहिए.

_mahaadev prasaad seTh saahuukaar vaNsh meN utpann ho vyaapaarii gaadii pat baiThne par bhii phaloN se lade rasik rasaal -jaise the jinheN apne phal luTaakar dvijgaNR kaa kalrav shravaNR karnaa hii ruchtaa thaa. __lekin aadamii kaa sukh vidhnaa ko kahaaN suhaataa hai! mausam badlaa, phal jhaRe, dvij-dal uRe - na svar, na gaan, na maNRDalii, na kalrav. apratyaashit patjhaR aayaa, mahaadev seTh-ruupii rasaal akaal hii suukh gayaa. puNRya prakaashak divaNgat mahaadev prasaad seTh kaa charitr param udaatt, jiske li'e pannaa nahiiN pothii chaahi'e.

_*The context answers clearly which understanding of the first sentence is right. As a result, I'd advise you to think before posting.*


----------



## greatbear

Thanks, marrish; I didn't know that "dvijgaN" could mean birds, too! That brings a bit more sense to the sentence, though this meaning and the addition of "jinheN" only brings grammatical clarity to the sentence, but to me the sentence still remains in the realm of nonsensical or, rather, badly framed sentence. The writer seems to have a habit of this: the sentence "पुण्य ... पोथी चाहिए" again lacks a verb and is again pompous-sounding.

My issues with you in this thread were about your translations in post 7 - which I still think take liberties with the original and also have a bad flow of language.


----------



## greatbear

marrish said:


> greatbear, you were right to tell the meaning however Platts doesn't mention ''_gaadhii_'' and justly so! I've had a look in the copy of the original text and it is ''_*gaadii*_'', not ''_gaadhii_'' as in the OP.



However, all three - "gaadhii", "gaadii" and "gaddii" - exist, and it is the last one that is the most common.


----------



## marrish

greatbear said:


> However, all three - "gaadhii", "gaadii" and "gaddii" - exist, and it is the last one that is the most common.


I am surprised to hear that the aspirated form exists as well.


----------



## marrish

greatbear said:


> Thanks, marrish; I didn't know that "dvijgaN" could mean birds, too! That brings a bit more sense to the sentence, though this meaning and the addition of "jinheN" only brings grammatical clarity to the sentence, but to me the sentence still remains in the realm of nonsensical or, rather, badly framed sentence. The writer seems to have a habit of this: the sentence "पुण्य ... पोथी चाहिए" again lacks a verb and is again pompous-sounding.
> 
> My issues with you in this thread were about your translations in post 7 - which I still think take liberties with the original and also have a bad flow of language.



Yes, indeed, dvijgaNR means nothing other than birds here. I assume you have already figured out where the mangoes come from...

I'll post later regarding the style of the sentence.


----------



## greatbear

marrish said:


> I assume you have already figured out where the mangoes come from...



I haven't, so far ...


----------



## marrish

greatbear said:


> I haven't, so far ...


You seem to have taken great delight in making fun of my inclusion of a mango tree in my translations of the Hindi sentence in not one, not two but three posts! To add insult to injury, you decided to target my command of the English language. That certainly was uncalled for. As I've been suggesting it is the meaning which is important and not the misspellings that owe to my input device. Nevertheless, neither Hindi nor English is my mother tongue. Unlike you, a native Hindi speaker, I do not have this privilege. But when a native Hindi speaker comes up with this translation:


'_'Even after being born to the seat of a moneylender, merchant Mahadev Prasad was bursting with life like juicy fruits. He used to like hearing Brahmins' harmonious chants through wasting away his fruits''_ 

- anyone like me can only do better, for it is impossible to make the translation any worse! My fault, if one can call it a fault, has been in following this native Hindi speaker's suggestion that द्विजगण means "upper castes/Brahmins"! Hence my unfortunate inclusion of this in my earlier attempts at translating the sentence. I do, with all sincerity, wish to learn more in order to improve my existing understanding of Hindi. The unfortunate thing is that there is a great dearth of Hindi speakers on the forum with sufficient knowledge and expertise in their mother tongue whom one could take as role models! Let us but hope there are other people who know Hindi who can still join us here!

Now, if you are after the mangoes! In post #14, I have broken the sentence into small chewable pieces and provided translations for them. You will, hopefully, not fail to notice that "rasaal" is the word that has outwitted you! Moreover, after the context is there I don't think anyone can have doubts about its meaning.


----------



## Qureshpor

One more attempt for our PG Jii.

*महादेव प्रसाद सेठ साहूकार वंश में उत्पन्न हो व्यापारी **गादी पर बैठने पर भी फलों से लदे रसिक रसाल-जैसे थे जिन्हें अपने फल लुटाकर द्विजगण का कलरव श्रवण करना ही रुचता था।
*
Mahaadev Prasaad SeTh may be born into a wealthy family but even after taking up the mantle of a trader, he was like amorous fruit-laden mango trees that allow their fruits to be plundered just for the allurement of listening to the chirping of the birds.


----------



## panjabigator

It's a lot of work to go through and edit out the mudslinging here, guys. I assure you, I will do that. Lets avoid personal attacks. If you disagree, disagree, but I request that you not proceed further than that.

Regards,
Panjabigator


----------



## greatbear

marrish said:


> You seem to have taken great delight in making fun of my inclusion of a mango tree in my translations of the Hindi sentence in not one, not two but three posts! To add insult to injury, you decided to target my command of the English language. That certainly was uncalled for. As I've been suggesting it is the meaning which is important and not the misspellings that owe to my input device. Nevertheless, neither Hindi nor English is my mother tongue. Unlike you, a native Hindi speaker, I do not have this privilege. But when a native Hindi speaker comes up with this translation:
> 
> 
> '_'Even after being born to the seat of a moneylender, merchant Mahadev Prasad was bursting with life like juicy fruits. He used to like hearing Brahmins' harmonious chants through wasting away his fruits''_
> 
> - anyone like me can only do better, for it is impossible to make the translation any worse! My fault, if one can call it a fault, has been in following this native Hindi speaker's suggestion that द्विजगण means "upper castes/Brahmins"! Hence my unfortunate inclusion of this in my earlier attempts at translating the sentence. I do, with all sincerity, wish to learn more in order to improve my existing understanding of Hindi. The unfortunate thing is that there is a great dearth of Hindi speakers on the forum with sufficient knowledge and expertise in their mother tongue whom one could take as role models! Let us but hope there are other people who know Hindi who can still join us here!
> 
> Now, if you are after the mangoes! In post #14, I have broken the sentence into small chewable pieces and provided translations for them. You will, hopefully, not fail to notice that "rasaal" is the word that has outwitted you! Moreover, after the context is there I don't think anyone can have doubts about its meaning.



No, "rasaal" has outwitted you, it seems. "Rasaal" means juicy, and by extension means sugarcane or mangoes or even their trees/crops; however, in the sentence here, it is "phaloN se lade rasik-rasaal" - clearly, "rasik" and "rasaal" here mean juicy, succulent. Unless you mean to say the writer said "fruit-laden juicy mango trees" - which is possible, considering the bad quality of writing in this sentence - but then a tree cannot be juicy, a fruit is. Neither it can be "fruit-laden mangoes", can it be now?

It is indeed unfortunate that there is a dearth of Hindi speakers on the forum; I do not read Hindi literature, and I myself have expressed the desire to see better-learned forum members here. To me, Hindi is simply my native tongue: that doesn't mean that I am the most enlightened being in that - far from it. I do not see what kind of point you are making by pointing out my shortcomings, as I myself have never denied them. In addition, pointing them out doesn't improve the sentence in question.

Lastly, I had no desire to target your command of the English language. But a good translation is often key to understanding a sentence: and if you don't have one, you could always shed light on meanings of some obscurity that is confounding the others all this time. More importantly, a bad or wrong translation could mislead a non-native reader into viewing the structural pattern of a sentence as something else.

I would advise you to keep all the personal insults out of your posts from next time onwards. If I make a mistake, you have every liberty to point it out or even criticise it. But you cannot ascribe intentions of "delight in making fun", which does not seem to have any objective basis but in your imagination.


----------



## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> It's a lot of work to go through and edit out the mudslinging here, guys. I assure you, I will do that. Lets avoid personal attacks. If you disagree, disagree, but I request that you not proceed further than that.
> 
> Regards,
> Panjabigator



PG SaaHib. This intervention by you or someone else ought to have taken place from post 10 onwards. 

More to the point, you have not given your views on any of the translations that have been put forward. Do they take your understanding of this Hindi sentence any further forward or are we still at the point where we started from? Is marrish SaaHib's additional context correct as far as you know?


----------



## panjabigator

My qualms with the sentence where basic and I just wanted to make sense of the gist rather than get mired in the mechanics of what Ugr is doing. I don't care for his rhetoric (at least at the moment) and it seems to me that he has taken quite a literary license to craft this sentence (and the ones that follow are also doozies). I need to read him for my master's thesis as an ancillary text and I'm writing with a certain urgency, which means I have only been a silent and sometimes inattentive reader of threads like this one. I'll be returning to him again later today and will report back. I have to verify Marrish Sāhib's context to see if it checks, but it looks familiar, certainly.

Thank you all for your contributions.


----------



## marrish

greatbear said:


> No, "rasaal" has outwitted you, it seems. "Rasaal" means juicy, and by extension means sugarcane or mangoes or even their trees/crops; however, in the sentence here, it is "phaloN se lade rasik-rasaal" - clearly, "rasik" and "rasaal" here mean juicy, succulent. Unless you mean to say the writer said "fruit-laden juicy mango trees" - which is possible, considering the bad quality of writing in this sentence - but then a tree cannot be juicy, a fruit is. Neither it can be "fruit-laden mangoes", can it be now?


I'm not going to continue this discussion because I have tried as hard as I could to elucidate on what the sentence means in order to make it comprehendible but it seems my abilities have reached their limits. I don't feel myself eloquent enough.

The mangoes are not juicy, and the sentence doesn't include a compound ''rasik-rasaal'' but simply ''rasik rasaal-jaise''. Maybe this can facilitate grasping the meaning? But if even you insist on understanding ''rasik'' as ''juicy'' then "juicy mango trees" does not mean the trees are juicy.The adjective "juicy" may equally well apply to the mangoes and not the trees. One needs to use common sense!



> It is indeed unfortunate that there is a dearth of Hindi speakers on the forum; I do not read Hindi literature, and I myself have expressed the desire to see better-learned forum members here. To me, Hindi is simply my native tongue: that doesn't mean that I am the most enlightened being in that - far from it. I do not see what kind of point you are making by pointing out my shortcomings, as I myself have never denied them. In addition, pointing them out doesn't improve the sentence in question.



I didn't have the impression that Hindi speakers on the forum are scarce, it is rather the lack of any expertise which is deplorable.



> Lastly, I had no desire to target your command of the English language. But a good translation is often key to understanding a sentence: and if you don't have one, *you could always shed light on meanings of some obscurity that is confounding the others all this time.* More importantly, a bad or wrong translation could mislead a non-native reader into viewing the structural pattern of a sentence as something else.



Could you elaborate? I don't understand what you wish to say, especially the bold part. Thanks.


> I would advise you to keep all the personal insults out of your posts from next time onwards. If I make a mistake, you have every liberty to point it out or even criticise it. But you cannot ascribe intentions of "delight in making fun", which does not seem to have any objective basis but in your imagination.



As a gentleman I'm obliged to take your word for your declared lack of unhonest intentions but I have to emphasize that this is done with difficulty in the context of your behaviour to the contrary.


----------



## panjabigator

I appreciate all the help, but unfortunately the thread seems to adrift. 

I expect that no one is as anxious about monitoring this thread than I, so unless there is any protest, the thread will remain closed until one of us can filter out the superfluous, off-topic bits.

Edit: I have reopened this thread for discussion. I kindly request that we try and remain cordial AND topic.


----------



## marrish

The doubts that some had about the meanings of certain words are solved by the following paid information.

The sentence in question has been translated in the English edition (About Me, Penguin Books, 1997), translated by Ruth Vanita as follows:


> Although born in a merchant family and installed as a trader, Mahadev Prasad Seth was one who appreciated art; he was like a fruit-bearing tree that gives away its fruit and enjoys sweet birdsong in return. But the heavens cannot tolerate human happiness. Seasons changed, the fruit fell, the birds took wing-no voice, no melody, no gatherings, no song. An untimely autumn arrived, the tree called Mahadev withered too soon. It would require not a page but a volume to do justice to the immensely generous nature of this excellent publisher, the late Mahadev Prasad Seth.16
> 
> 16. There may be wordplay here, in the phrase _punya prakashak_-he was both a meritorious publisher, and a publisher of merit (one who makes others' merits public).


----------



## Qureshpor

Thank you, marrish SaaHib for your labour of love! But I don't understand where the appreciation of art comes in. This is what I was writing when PG SaaHib pressed the button to shut the gate! I am just posting it for the sake of completion although I can't exactly remember my thought process.

Let's return to the matter in hand and give it a little more thought.

Because the verb to be is "the", one would expect हों and not*हो. *I suspect we ought to be reading *हो *as होकर.

*महादेव प्रसाद सेठ साहूकार वंश में उत्पन्न हो (*कर) *व्यापारी गादी पर बैठने पर भी फलों से लदे रसिक रसाल जैसे थे जिन्हें अपने फल लुटाकर द्विजगण का कलरव श्रवण करना ही रुचता था।
*
*फलों से लदे *laden with fruits

This phrase is acting as an adjective. From this phrase it is obvious that the noun being qualified must be in the plural otherwise we should have "phal se ladaa". What is the noun? There are two words that follow this phrase.

*रसिक रसाल

*S رسك रसिक _rasik, adj. & s.m. (f. -ā), Tasty, savoury, flavoured; tasteful (as a composition, &c.); full of feeling or passion, sentimental, impassioned; spirited, witty; graceful, elegant; taking pleasure (in); fanciful; lustful; voluptuous;—a man full of feeling or passion; a man of pleasure, a sensualist, a libertine;—a horse; an elephant.
_*
*H رسال रसाल _rasāl [Prk. रसालो=S. रसालः; see ras], adj. & s.m. Having juice, juicy, succulent; savoury, &c. (=rasīlā, q.v.);—the sugar-cane; the mango tree._

From the definitions above, rasik is used as an adjective as well as a noun and so is rasaal. Now, what can be "laden with fruits". From rasik's definition..a (libertine) man, a horse or an elephant? None seem likely and the adjective "tasty" seems to best fit the bill considering that rasaal can also mean juicy. If we take this meaning for rasaal than "laden with fruits juicy juicy" does n't make sense because "juicy juicy" (or very juicy) needs a noun to qualify and we don't have one. Therefore rasaal can only mean "mango trees" in the context.

*...फलों से लदे रसिक रसाल जैसे थे*...(he) was like (some) mango trees laden with fruits {each tree having its own fruit}

Now that Jaihind and nineth are around, it would be nice to have additional inputs. But, perhaps it might not be so fruitful as you have given away the answer! But, this does not necessarily mean that the translator could not have any short comings! One thing is for certain. No Brahmins!


----------

