# The reason why



## esprit86

Hi there,

I'm a German beginner and am currently writing an essay.  I just wanted to check that I am correct in writing 'Das ist vielleicht der grund, der ich Leherin werden möchte' for 'That is perhaps the reason that I would like to become a teacher'.

Your help would be much appreciated.

Thanks


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## Frank78

esprit86 said:


> Hi there,
> "Das ist vielleicht der *G*rund, *dass *ich Leh*r*erin werden möchte' for 'That is perhaps the reason that I would like to become a teacher'.
> 
> Your help would be much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks



Just 3 minor mistakes


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## esprit86

Thanks you're a star!


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## brian

Can't you also say _warum_ instead of _dass_?


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## sokol

brian said:


> Can't you also say _warum_ instead of _dass_?


Yes you can. 
Actually - at least to my ears - "warum" sounds more formal than "dass", the latter has a colloquial touch (but still is acceptable in standard language).


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## mannibreuckmann

Ich finde, die Version mit *"dass"* ist sehr gewöhnungsbedürftig.

*"Warum"* dagegen kommt mir hier ganz natürlich vor - "why" im Englischen übrigens auch:

"Das ist vielleicht der Grund, warum ich Lehrer werden möchte."

"That is perhaps the reason why I would like to become a teacher."


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## brian

@sokol: thanks. 

@mannibreuckmann: ja, mir auch kommt "why" natürlicher als "that" im Englischen vor, aber eigentlich würde ich keins verwenden und einfach "...the reason I would like..." sagen.


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## Sowka

Hallo allerseits 

ich finde den Satz mit "dass" nicht falsch, aber ich neige dazu, noch ein "dafür" davor zu setzen:

"Und das ist der Grund dafür, dass ich Lehrerin werden möchte."


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## mannibreuckmann

Ja, mit dem "dafür" davor wird die Sache rund.


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## Savra

mannibreuckmann said:


> Ich finde, die Version mit *"dass"* ist sehr gewöhnungsbedürftig.
> 
> *"Warum"* dagegen kommt mir hier ganz natürlich vor - "why" im Englischen übrigens auch:


Mir kommt _daß_ auch komisch vor. Ich hätte _weshalb_ oder _warum_ gesagt.


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## Kevin Beach

Be careful of false analogies.

In English, we tend to omit both "that" and "why", if we use "reason".

It would be either:
"That is perhaps the reason I would like to become a teacher".

or:
"That is perhaps why I would like to become a teacher".

It is repetitive to say "...the reason why..."


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## Hutschi

Es gibt zwei Möglichkeiten: "dass" und "warum". "Dass" in Zusammenhang mit Begründungen wird meist zusammen mit "dafür" verwendet.

Das ist der Grund dafür, dass ich das schreibe.
Das ist der Grund, warum ich das schreibe.

Wenn man "dafür" weglässt, klingt der Satz mit "dass" für mich unvollständig.


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## dec-sev

**Redundancy*: A sentence in which some information is unnecessarily repeated is called redundant. Give here are some word combinations that are _always_ redundant, and thus should *never* be used.
…
_reason…because._  These words indicate the same thing; the correct pattern is _reason…that._
_(TOEFL Preparation Guide, Copyright 1991 by Michael A. Pyle and Mary Ellen Muñoz)._

At least it’s what this text-book says. But I’ve come across, for example, _the place where_, lots of times, to say nothing of _the reason why_.


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## Hutschi

Not all what is repeated is unnecessary. 
Redundancy reduces the amount of transmission errors in many cases. It can structure the sentence and it can improve the comprehensibility. 

And the usage may depend on the used language.

It only says:
 der Grund dafür, dass 
must be translated:
... _reason…that. (If this is correct in English.)
_


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## Kevin Beach

Again, please be careful of false cross-language analogies.

Just because a "dass", "warum" or "weil" construction is used in German, it doesn't mean that the literal equivalent can be used in English.

In the same way, English "why", "because" and "that" constructions cannot always be rendered literally or even similarly in German.


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## ABBA Stanza

Hutschi said:


> ... _reason…that. (If this is correct in English.)_


I agree with Kevin about being careful with literal translations, especially as German requires a subordinate clause here, forcing us to choose a conjunction like "warum" or "dass" to introduce it with.

Nevertheless, I personally find all three mentioned variants ("reason why", "reason that" and "reason" (on its own)) acceptable in English.

Abba


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## berndf

I am surprised no one mentioned this before. For me the by far most standard form is

_Das ist vielleicht der Grund, *aus dem* ich Leherin werden möchte._


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## Sidjanga

I was equally surprised, and was just going to do so. 

It doesn't seem to be the "most standard" form though.

The versions that sound best to my ears are the ones Savra already suggested: _weshalb _or _warum_.


Savra said:


> Mir kommt _daß_ auch komisch vor. Ich hätte _weshalb_ oder _warum_ gesagt.


According to Saint Google, the hierarchy according to frequencies of usage seems to be this:
_
der Grund, warum..._ -  678.000
_der Grund, weshalb.._ - 146.000
_der Grund, dass... _- 60.500 (leider schon hier )
_der Grund, aus dem._. -  26.100


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## Sowka

Hier stand unnötiges und unsinniges Beharren. Quacko  (das ist ein Kommentar an mich)

Schönen Abend! (das ist an Euch gerichtet)


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## sokol

berndf said:


> I am surprised no one mentioned this before. For me the by far most standard form is
> 
> _Das ist vielleicht der Grund, *aus dem* ich Leherin werden möchte._


I agree with the findings of Google concerning this version: "aus dem" sounds not too common to my ears; probably there's also a north-south-distribution.

Personally I think that in Austria "dass" is used quite frequently in contexts like this, and Google confirms:
- der Grund, dass - do:at: 4.360 hits
- der Grund, dass - do:de: 6.840 hits ("by rights" German hits should be tenfold ...)
But there's an overwhelming result of:
- der Grund, dass - do:ch: 54.700 hits!

(I think that's now just enough Google stats.  - Anyway, to me all varieties posted here sound more or less acceptable for standard language as far as I am concerned.)


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## mannibreuckmann

Kevin Beach said:


> It is repetitive to say "...the reason why..."



Dafür sind 26 Millionen Hits für diese Wortkombination bei "Google" aber ein hübsches Sümmchen.


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## Kevin Beach

mannibreuckmann said:


> Dafür sind 26 Millionen Hits für diese Wortkombination bei "Google" aber ein hübsches Sümmchen.


26 million repetitions, then!


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## Frank78

Well, it´s not and exclusive opinion of Kevin:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/renton/930.htm

http://languageandgrammar.com/2008/02/28/the-reason-is-already-the-why/

It´s nothing special that grammar mistakes are often widespread among speakers. 

A nice example of German would be keeping the word order in a subclause as it is in a main clause.

"Ich gehe gern in Kneipen, weil ich trinke gern Faßbier" (A bad example, but Harald Schmidt ist famous for these constructions)


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## ABBA Stanza

Frank78 said:


> It´s nothing special that grammar mistakes are often widespread among speakers.


I don't think it's got anything to do with grammar, Frank. For me, "the reason why" is grammatically (i.e., syntactically) perfect, but is simply tautological semantically. And, to be quite honest, I had never even thought about it being so until I read Kevin's recent post.

I'm also not even sure it's a mistake to say "the reason why", just as it's not a mistake to say in German "der Grund, warum". Here, the "warum" (or some similar word) is needed to satisfy the grammar by introducing the subordinate clause. In a way, these subordinate clauses exist in English, too, where they are often referred to as _embedded_ clauses. However, in English (unlike German), the word introducing the embedded clause can often be omitted. For example:

_"She's the friend [who(m)] I was telling you about."_
_"That's the answer [that] I was looking for."_
_"That's the reason [why] I can't go."_

Just because the word in square brackets can be optimized away doesn't mean to say that the longer form is any less valid, even if it is (in the case of "reason why") semantically repetitive. Indeed, a grammatician would probably argue that the non-optimized form is the syntactically "cleaner" one.

I can't go on about this any more, because this is primarily a German forum, not an English one. I just wanted to make it clear once again that none of "reason why", "reason that" or "reason" (alone) are grammatically invalid. Furthermore, you can use all of them in everyday English without problem, and nobody will bat an eyelid.

All the best,
Abba


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