# Urdu/Hindi: Use of aap in the third person



## Qureshpor

I am not sure whether the use of the pronoun "aap" in the third person has been discussed in this forum or not. So, I am starting a thread to fill this gap.

We all know the usual use of "aap" in the second person and it is usually translated as "You (respectful)", e.g.

"jise *aap* qubuul kar leN vuh adaa kahaaN se laa'uuN"

But, in Urdu at least, "aap" is also used for the third person (He/She/They), invariably for well known respectable personalities, e.g.

B.R. Ambedkar ne Hindustaan meN insaanoN kii baraabarii ke liye an-thak miHnat kii. *aap* 1891 meN Mhow (Madya Pradesh) meN paidaa hu'e.

Is this kind of usage also found in Hindi?


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## BP.

Are you a mind reader? I was thinking about that particular _aap _just moments ago.

It is indeed a usage that implies veneration, but also courtesy, e.g. when you introduce a person to others.

Another usage that I feel is declining is as the synonym of _khud_, e.g. 'machine _aap hii chal paRi_i' in lieu of 'machine _az khud chal paRii'_. Which brings me to a question: can I say '_woh tum aap hii kar/ki2ee loo_' - 'you do that yourself'?

But there's no real question in your post!


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## marrish

Only regarding the question and expressing my humble agreement to all what has been stated above, I didn't find this in Hindi-Hindi. What I further think, and I hope a native Hindi speaker can comment on my perception, which is that it wouldn't be understood.


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## tonyspeed

QURESHPOR said:


> Is this kind of usage also found in Hindi?



I have never seen it. Only the honorific Ve.



BelligerentPacifist said:


> 'machine _aap hii chal paRi_i' in lieu of 'machine _az khud chal paRii'_.


 Another equivalent for this in Hindi is : apne aap.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Are you a mind reader? I was thinking about that particular _aap _just moments ago.
> 
> It is indeed a usage that implies veneration, but also courtesy, e.g. when you introduce a person to others.
> 
> Another usage that I feel is declining is as the synonym of _khud_, e.g. 'machine _aap hii chal paRi_i' in lieu of 'machine _az khud chal paRii'_. Which brings me to a question: can I say '_woh tum aap hii kar/ki2ee loo_' - 'you do that yourself'?
> 
> But there's no real question in your post!




No, I am not a mind reader but I wish I were! I could then have a much easier life than that I have at the moment!

Yes, I agree the use of "aap" for "xud" is declining. I would also add that I would say "xud ba-xud" more often than "az xud". Maybe my usage is faulty.

Yes, your sentence is perfectly correct when you say, "vuh aap aap hii kar liijiye" (I did n't use "tum" because I come from a very "shaa'istah" background!!)

Here is Momin, coming to your help.

jise aap ginte the aashnaa jise aap kahte the baa-vafaa
maiN vahii huuN Momin-i-mubtilaa tumheN yaad ho kih nah yaad ho

You (aap) will notice that the poet is using "tum" for his "maHbuub". He can't be using "aap" in one line and then switching to "tum" in the next. So, "aap" in the first line means "xud"!!*

Yes, I did ask a question, janaab-i-vaalaa!!

* This is my personal view. One does find ash'aar from the masters with a mixing up of pronouns.


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## marrish

Something tells me this issue was once discussed here, but I'm not sure where.


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## Qureshpor

tonyspeed said:


> I have never seen it. Only the honorific Ve.
> 
> Another equivalent for this in Hindi is : apne aap.



Thank you Tony SaaHib. In Urdu we use "apne aap" as well.


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> ...
> Yes, your sentence is perfectly correct when you say, "vuh aap aap hii  kar liijiye" (I did n't use "tum" because I come from a very  "shaa'istah" background!!)
> 
> Here is Momin, coming to your help.
> 
> jise aap ginte the aashnaa jise aap kahte the baa-vafaa
> maiN vahii huuN Momin-i-mubtilaa tumheN yaad ho kih nah yaad ho
> ...


I used _tum _on purpose to not confuse people with two contiguous _aap_s.
Thanks for the couplet. Momin's style is unmistakable.




QURESHPOR said:


> ...
> I would also add that I would say "xud ba-xud" more often than "az xud". Maybe my usage is faulty.
> ...


I used to use the former much more frequently two decades ago than now, maybe because the latter is shorter.


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## marrish

I observe a difference between the two, _xud-bah-xud_ meaning 'in his own person. Of course other meanings are interchangeable.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> But, in Urdu at least, "aap" is also used for the third person (He/She/They), invariably for well known respectable personalities, e.g.
> 
> B.R. Ambedkar ne Hindustaan meN insaanoN kii baraabarii ke liye an-thak miHnat kii. *aap* 1891 meN Mhow (Madya Pradesh) meN paidaa hu'e.
> 
> Is this kind of usage also found in Hindi?



Yes, this of "aap" that you mention are also very much part of Hindi (and of some other languages like Italian - I think in many other Indo-European languages this feature exists).

As for "'machine _aap hii chal paRi_i", it's heard in Hindi, but more common are "machine khud hi chal paRii", "machine khud se chal paRii", "machine khud-ba-khud chal paRii", "machine swayam/apne-aap (hi) chal paRii".


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## JaiHind

QURESHPOR said:


> I am not sure whether the use of the pronoun "aap" in the third person has been discussed in this forum or not. So, I am starting a thread to fill this gap.
> 
> We all know the usual use of "aap" in the second person and it is usually translated as "You (respectful)", e.g.
> 
> "jise *aap* qubuul kar leN vuh adaa kahaaN se laa'uuN"
> 
> But, in Urdu at least, "aap" is also used for the third person (He/She/They), invariably for well known respectable personalities, e.g.
> 
> B.R. Ambedkar ne Hindustaan meN insaanoN kii baraabarii ke liye an-thak miHnat kii. *aap* 1891 meN Mhow (Madya Pradesh) meN paidaa hu'e.
> 
> Is this kind of usage also found in Hindi?



I don't see this practice much in Hindi. I can't remember good Hindi communication using "aap" in third person. When a guest is on the dais and another speaker is speaking about him, he can still say "aap ne ye kiya..." which can be classified as "second person". But if you say it is quite common in Urdu, may be if we hear at times such a practice in Hindi it could be because of Urdu's influence on Hindi. 

Practically, my answer is "no" or "not much". "aap" is second person in Hindi. "aap" is always "respectful" address in Hindi, despite usage in second person. 

Grammatically too, I think "aap" is second person and not third person. I don't know why people use it as in third person.


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## greatbear

Well, grammatically, it also works as third person, whether you like it or not, and it does exist in Hindi as third person, especially in very formal introductions. As for whose influence from where, I don't know and don't care: it's a part of Hindi, and quirks like these only make the language more delightful, more varied.


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## Qureshpor

JaiHind said:


> I don't see this practice much in Hindi. I can't remember good Hindi communication using "aap" in third person. When a guest is on the dais and another speaker is speaking about him, he can still say "aap ne ye kiya..." which can be classified as "second person". But if you say it is quite common in Urdu, may be if we hear at times such a practice in Hindi it could be because of Urdu's influence on Hindi.
> 
> Practically, my answer is "no" or "not much". "aap" is second person in Hindi. "aap" is always "respectful" address in Hindi, despite usage in second person.
> 
> Grammatically too, I think "aap" is second person and not third person. I don't know why people use it as in third person.



If your answer is "no or not much", then you are saying this usage does exist in Hindi. Thank you for the confirmation. Regarding your last part, could it be that you are not familiar with this aspect of Hindi grammar?


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## tonyspeed

greatbear said:


> Well, grammatically, it also works as third person, whether you like it or not, and it does exist in Hindi as third person, especially in very formal introductions. As for whose influence from where, I don't know and don't care: it's a part of Hindi, and quirks like these only make the language more delightful, more varied.



Would you say you have heard this when someone is formally introducing another, maybe to come to a stage? Have you seen this in books as well? I'm interested in the context.


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## tonyspeed

Please see this reference: _Lexical Anaphors and Pronouns in Selected South Asian Languages_, page 396.

"_aap_ is usually a second-person honorific pronoun, but in both Hindi and Urdu it can have a third person reference with a strong honorific attitude
on the part of the speaker."


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## greatbear

tonyspeed said:


> Would you say you have heard this when someone is formally introducing another, maybe to come to a stage? Have you seen this in books as well? I'm interested in the context.



Yes, it's often used in those situations where someone is being introduced on a dais, and similarly in documentaries about important people, etc. It can also be used in social gatherings to indicate strong honor being conveyed, sometimes even deliberately for exaggerating the honorific aspect in a comic-like situation (however, never pejoratively). It's used in print as well, though since I don't read Hindi literature, I wouldn't be readily able to give you a reference to a print example.


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## Dib

Wonderful! This provides a missing piece of a puzzle for me.

As far as I know, "aap/aapan" is etymologically derived from Sanskrit "Atman-" (oneself, self). No wonder, it is still found in that sense (post #2), and when extended to be used as a pronoun, then in all 3 persons (1st person plural: aapan in non-standard speech; also Gujarati/Marathi aapaNR in 1st inclusive plural).


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## marrish

^ Are you by chance familiar with Hindi speakers' using 'aap' to indicate a very respectful and polite third person?


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## Wolverine9

^ Tonyspeed's post #15 confirms that it exists in Hindi as well as Urdu.


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## marrish

Wolverine9 said:


> ^ Tonyspeed's post #15 confirms that it exists in Hindi as well as Urdu.


Yes, his quotation does, but he didn't share his first hand experience. (I'd like to note that it is not correct to say, as the paper stipulates that the third person plural is ''ve and ye'' in Urdu.) I hope it's not too much to ask some other person about this from Dib SaaHib who seems to have an ear for it. I am eager to know about his experience, aren't you?


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## Dib

^

I have personally never heard it. But, please, don't read too much into it, because my use of Hindi-Urdu is typically limited only to everyday situations. I have hardly ever witnessed them in their most formal.


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## Faylasoof

The use of _aap_ for a third person is something commonly used in formal settings for both Urdu and Hindi and I've seen this on a stage setting too where using _aap_ is not meant to be second person plural (also used as a "singular" polite form when directly addressing someone) but third person with honorific value!


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## marrish

Thanks Dib & Faylasoof Saahibaan for this information. Of course 3rd.  person was intended but I was not sure it were there in Hindi. Sort of logical, i reckon.


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## Chhaatr

I have heard _aap_ being used in the third person in TV and radio programmes but have never used it myself or have been in a gathering where this was used in my presence.


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## marrish

Thanks. I am assured it is used in Hindi. Perhaps more so in Urdu but in Hindi too, for obvious reasons.


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## eskandar

As far as honorific third-person usage goes, is there a difference between _unhoN ne_ and _aap ne_​ for past tense transitive verbs? I have seen both in print. Would one perhaps be even more formal than the other?


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## Qureshpor

Ambedkar ne Hindustaan meN insaanoN kii baraabarii ke liye an-thak miHnat kii. 

aap ne Hindustaan meN insaanoN kii baraabarii ke liye an-thak miHnat kii. 

unhoN ne Hindustaan meN insaanoN kii baraabarii ke liye an-thak miHnat kii. ?

I think the "aap" version has the addressed in a more familiar, intimate place.


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## eskandar

So would it be correct to summarize in this way?

_us ne_ (unmarked/least formal) - _aap ne_ (more formal) - _unhoN ne_​ (most formal)


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## Qureshpor

^ I am afraid I am unable to provide you with a definitive answer. Let us see what Urdu speakers say about this.


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## marrish

In my perception and understanding, this usage is the most polite and honorific. So _us ne-> unhoN ne-> aap ne_. Let us see what those who really do speak Urdu more than me can say.


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## HZKhan

I agree with marrish Sahib. Since people mostly use _aap ne..._ for holy personalities, I also perceive it to be a bit more formal than _unhon ne_. But it should be in mind, that _unhon ne_ can also serve the same purpose of referring to the Prophets and Saints without any change in meaning.


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## eskandar

Thanks everyone, all clear now.


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## DurakSuka

tonyspeed said:


> Would you say you have heard this when someone is formally introducing another, maybe to come to a stage? Have you seen this in books as well? I'm interested in the context.



It's not third person. It's simply the honorific form of "you", which is second person. The order is thus: "aap" (most polite), "tum" (more familiar), and "tu" (extremely familiar). If they were referring to a third person, it would be: "voh" or "ve" (plural).


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## Gope

Qureshpor said:


> I am not sure whether the use of the pronoun "aap" in the third person has been discussed in this forum or not. So, I am starting a thread to fill this gap.
> 
> We all know the usual use of "aap" in the second person and it is usually translated as "You (respectful)", e.g.
> 
> "jise *aap* qubuul kar leN vuh adaa kahaaN se laa'uuN"
> 
> But, in Urdu at least, "aap" is also used for the third person (He/She/They), invariably for well known respectable personalities, e.g.
> 
> B.R. Ambedkar ne Hindustaan meN insaanoN kii baraabarii ke liye an-thak miHnat kii. *aap* 1891 meN Mhow (Madya Pradesh) meN paidaa hu'e.
> 
> Is this kind of usage also found in Hindi?


If I may chip in, i found precisely this kind of usage of aap for the third person in the Hindi textbook which was used to teach me Hindi. I was a little amused then and I still remember it.


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## marrish

DurakSuka said:


> It's not third person. It's simply the honorific form of "you", which is second person. The order is thus: "aap" (most polite), "tum" (more familiar), and "tu" (extremely familiar). If they were referring to a third person, it would be: "voh" or "ve" (plural).


Now that your language has been made to be answered, yes, it is second person plural and honorific for one person. Still, from the posts in this thread I am assured  it is used in Hindi or at least taught, but it is not a common  feature;  while it is for Urdu speakers. I understand that you don't know it. If it is Hindi it is the margin of it but  a core matter of Urdu. Urdu is old so you can perceive its features as weird.


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## littlepond

^ marrish jii, it is also a common/core feature of Hindi, as is also evident from native Hindi speakers' views expressed in this thread.


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## Qureshpor

According to Professor Naim*, this honorific use of "aap" in the third person is used in Urdu, usually if the person is present. (We know it is also used for persons not present, as in the example I gave in my first post. "B.R. Ambedkar ne Hindustaan meN insaanoN kii baraabarii ke liye an-thak miHnat kii. *aap* 1891 meN Mhow (Madya Pradesh) meN paidaa hu'e."

Examples from Naim.

"aap se miliye, aap yahaaN professor haiN      Please meet this gentleman; he is a professor here.

in se miliye, yih yahaaN professor haiN          as above

"The latter is polite but noticeably less formal."

* Naim, C.M. _Introductory Urdu_


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