# how to roll your rr's - pronunciation



## gumper48

how or what drill is productive in producing the trill with the rr words.
 soy gringo.
 lazy tongue. can get a little trill with r and a little more using d instead of r. but nothing close to rr.
 frustrating.


tia
gump


----------



## jacinta

Hi, gumper.  Please do not despair.  I teach Spanish and I have a whole range of abilities in my students.  Some get the trill right off the bat and some cannot do it at all.  It takes time to acquire.  Keep practicing and it will come.  Here's a drill that you can practice:

Erre con erre guitarra,
Erre con erre barril
Rapido ruedan los carros
Cargados de azucar del ferrocarril.

(Sorry for the lack of accents)


----------



## UomoSconociuto

step 1 say "Que rapido corren los carros del ferrocarril."
step 2 repeat step 1


----------



## funnydeal

I think this thread will be helpful:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=8710


----------



## twelvepercentt

Hola, I have trouble making the sound of the spanish r and rr.

Does anyone have any suggestions for exercises that could help, besides repition?

Gracias,


----------



## Swettenham

Well, I don't know if you ever did this as a kid, but I used to make machine-gun (or helicopter) noises basically by rolling my tongue.  When I started learning Spanish, I was glad I had had this practice.  Maybe you should try imitating a machine gun (in private ).


----------



## fenixpollo

Try this tongue-twister:

_Erre con erre cigarro_
_Erre con erre barril_
_Rapido corren los carros_
_Los carros de ferrocarril_

Don't forget to roll the first "r" in rápido.
Practice at all hours. Practicing under your breath helps, since you are more aware of the subtle rush of air past your tongue.
Make sure the tip of the tongue touches the roof of your mouth on or just behind the ridge on the soft palate that's above and behind the teeth.

Suerrrte!


----------



## shiba inu

In Spain, the kids used to say this

El perro de San Roque no tiene rabo
porque Ramón Rodríguez se lo ha cortado


----------



## Swettenham

shiba inu said:
			
		

> San Roque


See, this is what's most difficult for me: rolling rr after a consonant such as *n* or *s*.  "Me haces reír."  I have to pause between *haces* and *reír*.


----------



## Reili

The key is that your tongue's tip makes a vibration which is extended up to your tonsils (tonsil*e*s?). Good luck and keep practicing a lot.


----------



## Swettenham

Reili said:
			
		

> The key is that your tongue's tip makes a vibration which is extended up to your anginas. Good luck and keep practicing a lot.


¿Anginas?


----------



## Rayines

> ¿Anginas?


*No, I think he means palate (?) =paladar*


----------



## VenusEnvy

Swettenham said:
			
		

> See, this is what's most difficult for me: rolling rr after a consonant such as *n* or *s*.  "Me haces reír."  I have to pause between *haces* and *reír*.


Oh, Swetten: I have the same problem!! I have practices the transition, but just can't get it down perfectly. I usually wind up cutting down the *n* pr *s* so that I can get the *r* out. If not, I would, yes, have to pause uncomfortably.


----------



## shiba inu

San Roque is the solution. Trust me. if you can say this, the problem is gone.

Swettenham  "Me haces reír" is difficult without a stop even for a spanish.
try to make the "s" smaller (not to much, if u don´t want to seen "andaluz" JE;JE;JE). should be help u.

i´m spanish and I have problems with words like "wood" or "laugh", can anybody help me with similar words to help me to find the right sound in my mouth.


----------



## mariposita

For me, the key was to understand that I needed to exhale slightly to make to make the sound. Your should touch your tongue to the palate (the smooth part of the top) of your mouth.  In American English, we don't have to exhale when we make an "r" sound, so it take a bit of retraining and a lot of practice.


----------



## Eugens

Hi!
A question for English speakers who are learning Spanish:
How do you pronounce your "r"? Is it similar to our "ere"? (I'm talking about the "r" of "caro", for example.) Or something between our "ere" (r) and our "erre" (rr)?


----------



## shiba inu

mariposita, in which neighbourhood of Madrid do u live?


----------



## mariposita

Shiba inu--I live in La Latina (the neighborhood near the Rastro--not farther out). How about you?

About the "r" in American English. It's not really anything like an "r" or and "rr"... which is why these sounds are the hardest for us. 

I'd say that the best way to learn to make an English "r" is to make a "w" sound, but instead of putting your lips together, let your top teeth slightly touch your bottom lip, while neither inhaling or exhaling noticeably. When kids are learning English, most pass through a stage when they make a "w" sound instead pronouncing "r" correctly. I think this is the last sound that kids master, because it's not quite a real consonant sound.

If you think back to the Americans you have heard trying to speak Spanish, it may help you to figure the sound out... I think it's quite jarring for Spanish speakers.


----------



## Swettenham

shiba inu said:
			
		

> San Roque is the solution. Trust me. if you can say this, the problem is gone.
> 
> Swettenham  "Me haces reír" is difficult without a stop even for a spanish.
> try to make the "s" smaller (not to much, if u don´t want to seen "andaluz" JE;JE;JE). should be help u.
> 
> i´m spanish and I have problems with words like "wood" or "laugh", can anybody help me with similar words to help me to find the right sound in my mouth.


If I were mistaken for Andaluz, I would die of bliss. 

I think that you can approximate the *oo* sound in *wood* by shaping your mouth as if you were going to pronounce *o*, but try to pronounce *u* instead.

As for *laugh*, it is pronounced *laf*.

Does that help??


----------



## Swettenham

Eugens said:
			
		

> Hi!
> A question for English speakers who are learning Spanish:
> How do you pronounce your "r"? Is it similar to our "ere"? (I'm talking about the "r" of "caro", for example.) Or something between our "ere" (r) and our "erre" (rr)?


I'm not sure if this will help, Euge, but the English *r* is a close cousin of a dog's growl.   Try imitating a growling dog...  Raise the back of your tongue, rather than the front (as in Spanish).  The sound seems to come from the back of your mouth (where your tongue should be be raised), or the top of your throat.

Sorry, guys, this stuff is hard to explain.  I hope I'm not confusing you more!


----------



## shiba inu

thanks mariposita, your tip for english "r" is great.

¡que fuerte! I live in la latina as well, in Maldonadas street.

thanks Swettenham, but i don´t know how to make the "w" before the "oo". my lips gets lost.


----------



## Swettenham

Try making the *u* sound and freeze your lips there.  Now, say *u* again, and then immediately open your lips.  

*W* starts where *u* ends.  

I am confused, though.  What sound do you make in words like *huella* and *hueso*?  When I pronounce those words, I make a *w* sound.


----------



## Eugens

Would the "w" sound be like a short "u" (oo), then? What happens with words like "Woody Allen"? Is the "woo" like a long "u" (oooo)?  
These things are very hard to explain (and understand) without actually hearing them!


----------



## Swettenham

> Would the "w" sound be like a short "u" (oo), then? What happens with words like "Woody Allen"? Is the "woo" like a long "u" (oooo)?



For beginners, maybe you could think of W as a very, very short u.  

The thing about Woody is the oo does not make a u sound, at least not as a Spanish-speaker might conceive it.  To make that oo sound, try putting your mouth in the position to say o, but try to say u instead.  

And I take back my earlier statment, I don't think you make a w sound in huella.  You're right, Euge, this is so hard to explain!


----------



## jacinta

shiba inu said:
			
		

> San Roque


I barely pronounce the "n" and move right into the "R" so that it almost sounds like Sa' Roque, but there is a definite stop with my tongue touching the top front of my mount on the "n".  Then, my tongue is in the right position to trill the R.


----------



## Swettenham

jacinta said:
			
		

> I barely pronounce the "n" and move right into the "R" so that it almost sounds like Sa' Roque, but there is a definite stop with my tongue touching the top front of my mount on the "n".  Then, my tongue is in the right position to trill the R.


Hmm.. so San becomes French.   By the way, Jacinta, have you cleared your PMs?  I've been trying to send you a message.


----------



## jacinta

Hmmm!  I *never * remember to do that!  Vamos a ver, I'll do it now.


----------



## Tabac

In linguistics classes, sounds are analyzed; sometimes we actually find the problem sound in the first language.  In the case of the single 'r' in Spanish, it is actually very close to the sound in the middle of the English word "little".  The double-t is not pronounced as a 't' at all.  Some times, just being aware that the sound exists in the first language is something to help the learner of a second language focus on the sound.  Give it a try.


----------



## jacinta

Eugens said:
			
		

> Hi!
> A question for English speakers who are learning Spanish:
> How do you pronounce your "r"? Is it similar to our "ere"? (I'm talking about the "r" of "caro", for example.) Or something between our "ere" (r) and our "erre" (rr)?


Do you mean our "r" in English?  If so, it is a much ha*r*der sound, absolutely impossible for me to explain in *wr*iting.  Ha*r*d to explain! Grrrrr...  It is nothing like the "r", ere, in Spanish.  It is pronounced completely in the back of the throat, the tongue doesn't touch any part of your mouth!


----------



## KateNicole

As for rolling the "r", if you are an English-speaker and you say "*pot o' tea*" VERY fast, over and over, you will realize that when you pronounce the two "t's", the sound that will come out of your mouth is actually the sound of an "r" being rolled one time.  Once you hear yourself rolling the "r", try to pay attention to what your tongue is doing, because if you add a slightly strong puff of air, you will then be able to prouncounce the "rr".  

I hope my explanation makes sense.  Let me know if you need clarification, because I promise you this will help.  Hell, my Danish grandmother can roll her r's now!


----------



## americana

¡Hola a todos!

No sé si esto es el lugar para esta pregunta pero, tal vez alguien puede ayudarme.  Estoy estudiando el español en la universidad y ¡me lo encanta!  La unica problema es que no puedo "roll" mis rr's.  He tratado y tratado a hacerlo, pero no he podido a harcerlo nunca.  No estoy segura que esto es algo que se puede aprender pero si es posible, espero que alguien puede enseñarme.

Muchas gracias,
Amanda

PS ¿Como se dice "I cannot roll my r's" en español?


----------



## Diablo919

Yeah, i'm intrested too. We dumb ohioans can't do it


----------



## mylam

Bueno, después de tres años de escuela y dos años de ser casada con un mexicano, por fin aprendí a decir el rr. No sé de ningún truco mas que intentarlo. Pero puedes practicar diciendo "ladder ladder ladder ladder" rapidamente muchas veces seguidas. Da casi el mismo sonido y podría ayudar.


----------



## Diablo919

haha. thanks, i'll have to work on that one


----------



## fenixpollo

Click on these past threads on this topic:
r and j in spanish
rr
tips for Rolling the RR

Buena suerrrrte!


----------



## sergio11

I have seen many postings in this thread and some other threads that were suggested, some with interesting pointers, some very wrong. 

The r and rr in Spanish have nothing to do with guttural sounds, or the tonsils or anything like that. As a matter of fact, there are no guttural sounds in Spanish at all, with any letter. It is all tongue-and-palate combinations, and some teeth participation in some letters. 

The difference between the English r and the Spanish r or rr is merely where you put your tongue in relation to the palate, whether further to the front or further to the back, and how close or how hard is the contact between the two. 

If you have access to a public library where you can find speech therapy textbooks, you will find more material there than anything we can explain in the forum. Don't buy the book. All you need is a few pages of it. Just read it at the library or Xerox those few pages. 

Let me tell you a personal anecdote: when my middle daughter learned to roll her rs, at the age of two (they used to sound like "L"s before), she was so excited with her new ability, that she began to practice the rs all day long, wherever she was and whatever she was doing. She kept saying "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..........." to no end, for days and days and days, from morning to evening. She would do it when she was playing with her dolls, or on her trycicle, or in the bathroom, or she would just sit at the top of the stairs and practice. We must have heard that sound non-stop for at least two weeks. For those two weeks, whenever you entered our house, you would hear, "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......" until she went to sleep. But she learned it. 

I don't think you can compare a five minute practice, as we adults usually do, with this all-day, all-week, non-stop practice. 

Of course, you will say, what am I going to practice if I cannot do it at all? That is why I said to consult a speech therapy textbook. You don't need to buy it, because all you need is in a few pages. Just go to a public library or a university library and read those few pages. However, chances are, that if you put that much effort into it, you will be able to get it even without a book. Just remember, it is a matter of tongue-palate placement. Don't think of complicated outlandish throat maneuvers. Spanish sounds ar every simple compared to English. Most of the spanish sounds you already say them one way or another in many English words. 

Saludos


----------



## KateNicole

Well, I don't know about "guttural sounds", but the rr is actually aspirated in a lot of Caribbean places, especially Puerto Rico.  (As I'm sure you already know, but I just thought I'd point that out.)  To me, the extra little puff of air is what puts my tongue in the correct place so that I am able to make the appropriate sound.


----------



## Outsider

Tabac said:
			
		

> In linguistics classes, sounds are analyzed; sometimes we actually find the problem sound in the first language.  In the case of the single 'r' in Spanish, it is actually very close to the sound in the middle of the English word "little".  The double-t is not pronounced as a 't' at all.  Some times, just being aware that the sound exists in the first language is something to help the learner of a second language focus on the sound.  Give it a try.


Yes. My suggestion would be to focus on the sound of the intervocalic _t_ and _d_ in American English: _li*tt*le, go*tt*a, wa*t*er, la*dd*er, ri*d*er_, etc. This is the sound of the Spanish _r_. I'm not sure how many American dialects have this allophone, though.

As for the _rr_ (alveolar trill), to my ears it sounds like a 'long [r]' (make the [r] sound, but allow your tongue to vibrate more than once), although this is probably a bad description, linguistically. Another option is to imitate Scrooge McDuck.


----------



## atomicradish

Ok, I have a question as well. I cannot roll my r's either! I a comment which mentioned use of the tonsils, but I had mine removed several years ago. Is it still possible to make the sound without them??


----------



## vikingo44

Yes, it is!
I had my tonsils removed at the age of five and began learning Spanish two years after that. I never had any problems. On the other hand, the description with the conection to the tonsils sounds more like having to do with the French way of pronouncing the "r". I liked the suggestion about "ladder, ladder, ladder". Just give attention to where you tongue goes when you do it: that is where the tongue has to do it's hard work to roll the "r's" in Spanish! >(;-)


----------



## teachme

KateNicole said:
			
		

> As for rolling the "r", if you are an English-speaker and you say "*pot o' tea*" VERY fast, over and over, you will realize that when you pronounce the two "t's", the sound that will come out of your mouth is actually the sound of an "r" being rolled one time. Once you hear yourself rolling the "r", try to pay attention to what your tongue is doing, because if you add a slightly strong puff of air, you will then be able to prouncounce the "rr".
> 
> I hope my explanation makes sense. Let me know if you need clarification, because I promise you this will help. Hell, my Danish grandmother can roll her r's now!


 
This works for me if rolling the r just one time. I've only been trying for two days now... so maybe it will just take time... but what should I do to extend the rolling? Do I just have to practice getting the tip of my tongue back to the top of my mouth fast enough?


----------



## mari.kit

I can help you with some of this tongue-twisters.


_@¡Esmerílemelo! _ 
_@¡Qué triste estás, Tristán, con tan tétrica trama teatral! _ 

_@Una cacatrepa trepa tiene tres cacatrepitos. Cuando la cacatrepa trepa trepan los tres cacatrepitos. _ 

_@Si don Curro ahorra ahora, ahora ahorra don Curro. _ 

_@El suelo está enladrillado. ¿Quién lo desenladrillará? El desenladrillador que lo desenladrillare un buen desenladrillador será. _ 

it works for me..


----------



## teachme

Outsider said:
			
		

> Yes. My suggestion would be to focus on the sound of the intervocalic _t_ and _d_ in American English: _li*tt*le, go*tt*a, wa*t*er, la*dd*er, ri*d*er_, etc. This is the sound of the Spanish r. I'm not sure how many American dialects have this allophone, though.
> 
> As for the _rr_ (alveola trill), to my ears it sounds like a 'long [r]' (make the [r] sound, but allow your tongue to vibrate more than once), although this is probably a bad description, linguistically. .


 
I should have finished scrolling down the page! Thanks to you and Kate, I believe I'm getting it. I was trying to move my tongue manually, but I see now it's more about your breath and allowing your tongue to vibrate.... I think with practice, I just may get it!


----------



## Pedro P. Calvo Morcillo

Swettenham said:
			
		

> See, this is what's most difficult for me: rolling rr after a consonant such as *n* or *s*. "Me haces reír." I have to pause between *haces* and *reír*.


So do I, and I am a native. A trick: Soften the 's' and strenghten the 'r'. But it's easier after n, the articulation point is the same for both.


----------



## GenJen54

> Originally posted by *teachme*This works for me if rolling the r just one time. I've only been trying for two days now... so maybe it will just take time... but what should I do to extend the rolling? Do I just have to practice getting the tip of my tongue back to the top of my mouth fast enough?



One thing I like to do is try to imitate the "motor" sound children make by vibrating their tongue on the top of their hard palate, just behind their teeth. 

I will say a word like "flor" (floor in Enlgish), yet then add the "motor" onto the end of it, so you have flor-r-r-r-r-r.

Once you have this, even at an exaggerated rate, then you can pull the "motor" back a bit, and just roll your tongue once or twice.


----------



## Pablochopper

Swettenham said:
			
		

> If I were mistaken for Andaluz, I would die of bliss.
> 
> I think that you can approximate the *oo* sound in *wood* by shaping your mouth as if you were going to pronounce *o*, but try to pronounce *u* instead.
> 
> As for *laugh*, it is pronounced *laf*.
> 
> Does that help??


 
"Laugh" can be pronounced in two ways: "*laf*" or "*larf*" with a long "a" which is typical of British English.


----------



## mandarina_82

I don't know if it can help you, because you maybe notice the difference betwen them (r-rr) and your problem is just their pronunciation. But anyways it can help anyone. I'm gonna leave here some Spanish radio stations links.

*Radio Television Española*. (This one is very handy, you can watch tv and listen radio.)

http://www.rtve.es/ Click on "tv en directo" (live tv), also you can see tv in "canal 24 horas" and there are saved video clips in "euronews". Check out the radio section, "RNE en directo" you have 5 radio station to listen , you can find all ready recorded radio programmes ("programas guardados") in "informativos".


Radio stations:

http://www.cadena100.es/paginas/plantilla_home6.asp ("ahora en directo")

http://www.cadenaser.com/player_radio.html 

http://www.ondacero.es/OndaCero/OCNoticias.nsf/OCHomePage?ReadForm&Comunidad=12& (clik in "en directo")

http://www.los40.com/ (the player button here is at the very top, to the right.)


Mandarina


----------



## carrieaa

HOla:
Yo tengo otro problema con la pronunciación espanol.  Mis "r" suenan como los "rr".  Por ejemplo en "regar" suelto mucho "rr" a los dos extremos de la palabra.  Me ayuda cuando pienso en el sonido en ladder.

Sincerely, Carrie


----------



## Outsider

carrieaa said:
			
		

> HOla:
> Yo tengo otro problema con la pronunciación espanol.  Mis "r" suenan como los "rr".  Por ejemplo en "regar" suelto mucho "rr" a los dos extremos de la palabra.


¡Pero eso no es un error! Está cierto. En el inicio de una palabra o (en algunos dialectos) en el final de una palabra, la r se lee como rr.


----------



## sergio11

teachme said:
			
		

> This works for me if rolling the r just one time. I've only been trying for two days now... so maybe it will just take time... but what should I do to extend the rolling? Do I just have to practice getting the tip of my tongue back to the top of my mouth fast enough?


Not _"getting the tip of my tongue back to the top of my mouth fast enough"_, but *keeping* the tip of your tongue there, right next to your teeth, or very close to them. Just practice extended rs for over a minute: "rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..."


----------



## mihabana

Repeat the following everyday 20 times until you get it. Make sure not to repeat this in front of anybody! Use some hankies if so...

rr con rr cigarro, rr con rr carril, rapido corren los carros, por la linea del ferrocarril.    Repetiras la rr mejor que los nativos en no time.


----------



## malcomp

The difference in sound of R and RR is that R is smoother that RR. I liked the exercise of the helicopter, for RR.. To make the sound of R, you should place the tonguetip back of the teeths, while to make the RR sound, the tongue is turned back to the palate. However, if the R is next to a N or S or at the begining of a word, it sounds like a RR.


----------



## diegodbs

Outsider said:
			
		

> ¡Pero eso no es un error! Está cierto. En el inicio de una palabra o (en algunos dialectos) en el final de una palabra, la r se lee como rr.


 
Hola Outsider, nunca he oído a nadie en España, sea de la zona que sea, pronunciar la "r" final de palabra como si fuera "rr".
Un saludo.


----------



## Outsider

He leído en algún lugar que en algunos dialectos del español la _r_ final de sílaba se pronunciaba como [rr], pero no me recuerdo de dónde fué. Puede que fueran dialectos de América Latina.


----------



## diegodbs

Outsider said:
			
		

> He leído en algún lugar que en algunos dialectos del español la _r_ final de sílaba se pronunciaba como [rr], pero no me recuerdo de dónde fué. Puede que fueran dialectos de América Latina.


 
Eso ya no lo sé. Pero en España hay cientos de miles personas procedentes de Sudamérica, y he oído hablar a colombianos, peruanos, ecuatorianos, mexicanos, argentinos, uruguayos y chilenos, y nunca he notado eso.
¿Puede que algún otro país? Podría ser. 
Un saludo.


----------



## Outsider

¿Conoce la canción _Bomba_ de King Africa? Me parece que el cantante pronuncia la _r_ final como [rr]. Puede que sea sólo porque se trata de una canción...


----------



## diegodbs

Outsider said:
			
		

> ¿Conoce la canción _Bomba_ de King Africa? Me parece que el cantante pronuncia la _r_ final como [rr]. Puede que sea sólo porque se trata de una canción...


 
Yo creo que es así. Suena un poco/bastante exagerado y ridículo. No es que pronuncie la r final como "rr", es que la pronuncia "rrrrrrrr".
De todos modos, a ver si alguien de Nicaragua, Honduras, Costa Rica o de algún otro país, nos informa de cómo pronuncian la "r" final.
Un saludo.


----------



## DaleC

Sí, lo he oído de locutores de radioemisoras en la ciudad de Tijuana (noroeste de México, al Pacífico y en la frontera colindante a San Diego, California). Más o menos se trata de la articulación súper meticuloso de los locutores varones al dar _anuncios publicitarios _(¿es del cotidiano esta frase?, solo _commercials _o _ads _en EEUU) Muchas veces es sordo (como c, t, p), se pierde la vibración glotal. Pronuncian solo 'rr', no 'rrrrrr'. Puede ser que también lo hacen los actores en las telenovelas, en momentos cargados. Yo mismo tengo ganas de saber si se habla así afuera del escenario y del estudio. 

En los Andes ocurre la 'rr' final que es sordo y palatalizado además: es como una mezcla de 'rr' español y la 'x' del portugués, del aragonés, del catalán. 

A un costarricense le oí pronunciar la 'tr' dentro de palabras (nosotros) exactamente como lo hacemos en ingles: "chr", de lo que la 'r' no vibra, es casi un vocal.


----------



## Phoebe1112

Hi! (I'm not sure where this thread belongs, so I hope this isn't annoying to anyone.)

I'm in the middle of Spanish 2, and I need help with the rr as in _Mi pe*rr*ita es fantástica._ I can make some vibrating noises that sort of sound like a rr, but my tongue doesn't move. I've gone to all sorts of web sites that say to try to purr like a cat, and I sound a bit like a purring cat, but my tongue is supposed to move, right? Thanks for any help! 

~Phoebe


----------



## diegodbs

Phoebe1112 said:
			
		

> Hi! (I'm not sure where this thread belongs, so I hope this isn't annoying to anyone.)
> 
> I'm in the middle of Spanish 2, and I need help with the rr as in _Mi pe*rr*ita es fantástica._ I can make some vibrating noises that sort of sound like a rr, but my tongue doesn't move. I've gone to all sorts of web sites that say to try to purr like a cat, and I sound a bit like a purring cat, but my tongue is supposed to move, right? Thanks for any help!
> 
> ~Phoebe


Yes, it should  But we don't seem like cats when pronouncing rr


----------



## Rayines

I think the sound is similar to the "r" in "train" and "tree": repeat them several times first, and then without the "t", maybe that works.


----------



## Jazztronik

Right, the 'rr', or 'r' at the beginning of a word, or just after a consonant, sounds vibrating the tongue against the palate. But don't make it long. It has to be a short vibration, unless you want to give emphasis.

Doesn't some dialects such as Scotch English have near sounds to this one?


----------



## Phoebe1112

Can you give me any help with where to put my tongue to make it move? Is it like saying the letter t several times or does it just get blown by the air?


----------



## diegodbs

Phoebe1112 said:
			
		

> Can you give me any help with where to put my tongue to make it move? Is it like saying the letter t several times or does it just get blown by the air?


 
T and R are completely different sounds in Spanish.


----------



## Jazztronik

try pronouncing 'trrrrrrrrr', like in 'brrrrr' when you're cold. First off make it long to train, and afterwards make it sound as short as possible.


----------



## Jhorer Brishti

After months of practicing(off and on whenever I had time on my hands) I've actually been able to replicate this sound. The "rr" is very different from an english r which tends to be long and vowel-like in the sense that your tongue does not touch the palate and even the position of the english r is further back in your mouth than the vibrating "rr".  When producing an "rr" your tongue doesn't really touch the palate either but is positioned closer to your upper teeth. While vibrating your tongue in that position air should flow out in reverberating tumults. I'm sure if you keep practicing and trying different maneuvers you'll be able to imitate this sound eventually. Just don't lose hope and settle for approximations.


----------



## Jazztronik

FYI (although I suppose you already know): The letter 'r' between vowels or right before a consonant doesn't sound like an 'rr', but like the smoother American sound of the 't' in "later".


----------



## Outsider

Tips for rolling the Spanish R and RR.


----------



## Phoebe1112

Thanks, Outsider! I'd already been there, though. I think what I'm trying to ask is exactly how do I shape my mouth to get my tongue to vibrate? Should it touch the roof of my mouth? Thanks again!

~Phoebe


----------



## mhp

Here is another idea that may help you. Try pronouncing the ‘r’ twice: “per-ro” as opposed to “pe-ro”.  Of course, the trick is not making a pause between “per” and “ro”.


----------



## Jellby

Ever listened to Red Hot Chili Peppers "Give it away"? In Spanish it sounds like "guivurrugüey, guivurrugüey, guivurrugüey nau", that's the sound of rr 

Someone told me once that using an electric toothbrush could help.


----------



## fizzy_soda

diegodbs said:
			
		

> T and R are completely different sounds in Spanish.


 
I am sure she knows that.  However they are both alveolar consonants so are made in a similar fashion.


Phoebe, I have yet to be able to produce the "rr" sound. Honestly, some people just can't do it. Everybody can tell you "just put your tongue there and blow" but if after so long you can't do it, you just can't.

My mother is Thai and in formal Thai speech the "r" in their language is also trilled like the Spanish "r". However, because so many people can't do it (like my mom and grandma) they have to replace it with the English "l" sound. (Not to say everybody in Thai who uses the "l" can't trill the "r" but it would be so much easier if I can replace the "rr" with "l" in Spanish. Hehe.)

Addition: Oh, I had to also note that I went to see a specialist about the "rr" and he said it can just be a speech impediment.


----------



## Jellby

Yes, there are some Spanish speaking people who can't pronounce the "rr"... but it's just placing the tongue and blowing, you have to give the tongue the right "stiffness".

If you change the "rr" with "l" in Spanish you'll sound like a Chinese  Much better would be to change them with "g" or "rd" or whatever you get when you try to pronounce the "rr".


----------



## geixer

i think it is easy... of course i'm spanish haha

is like u say RACKET or ROCKET but more strong...

good luck!


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

There are some areas where the rolled r isn't pronounced anyway.  In Bolivian Spanish, Roberto becomes ZZoberto and correr becomes cozzer.

It took a couple of years for me to master rolling my r's.  Even now, whenever I speak with a Bolivian I instantly revert to speaking in zzzz's.

The tip of the tongue in a Spanish rrrr touches the curve of your gum behind your teeth.  If you keep practicing, sooner or later the odds are pretty good that you'll have a eureka moment and be able to roll those r's with the best of them.


----------



## Outsider

Giving it a little thought, it seems to me that the English [r] is pronounced with the tip of one's tongue bent upward, but without it touching the palate, whereas the Spanish [r] is pronounced with the tip of the tongue pointing forward in a plateau, and slightly touching the palate. The [rr], to me, just seems like a long [r], that is, pronounced like [r], but letting one's tongue vibrate more than once, and the tip of the tongue touch the palate for a longer period of time.


----------



## jess oh seven

Rayines said:
			
		

> I think the sound is similar to the "r" in "train" and "tree": repeat them several times first, and then without the "t", maybe that works.


not with an American accent  a Scottish one, maybe. the majority of English-speaking accents do not have a "rolled" R.

i can only do the "rr" ocassionally and i can't maintain it  
i'm sure you must be able to get speech therapy for it... i know they help little Spanish-speaking kids in some places who can't do it. i'm seriously considering getting professional help for it... i know that sounds silly and extreme but i'm doing a degree in Spanish and want to use it in my future career so i should be able to pronounce things!!!

http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/about.html > click Launch English Library > Liquids > consonants > manner > liquid > /r/ ... you'll see the American English R is nothing like the Spanish one.


----------



## diegodbs

jess oh seven said:
			
		

> ... i know they help little Spanish-speaking kids in some places who can't do it.


Tienes razón. Hay algunos niños pequeños que pueden tener dificultad con ese sonido. Generalmente, cuando van creciendo, el problema desaparece, pero si no es así, es recomendable buscar ayuda de logopedas. Afecta a un porcentaje muy pequeño de niños, pero es verdad que sucede.


----------



## Monnik

Hi, Phoebe, let me tell you a story.  

My niece Regina was 4 years old, and for the best of her she could not pronounce the double r, which meant she could not even pronounce her name the way it was intended to.  So, one day I decided to sit down and practice with her, and so I said:

_- Regina, let's do this... Repeat after me, "*R*ana"_ (Frog) (I was stressing that r like there was no tomorrow, and, as you know, whenever a word starts with "R" it is pronounced just as the double R, except you only write one)
- Rana (no double rr)
- _Rrrrrrana_
- Rana
- _Rrrrrana_
- Rana
- _Rrrrrrrrrana_
- Rana
- _Rrrrrrrrrrana_
- Rana
- _Rrrrrrrrrrana_
- Ya no!!! SAPO!!!!! (Enough!!! TOAD!!!!!)

Now she rolls her r's as if she never needed coaching. 

So, hang in there, one day you'll also find yourself rolling your frogs and toads.


----------



## Outsider

jess oh seven said:
			
		

> not with an American accent  a Scottish one, maybe. the majority of English-speaking accents do not have a "rolled" R.
> 
> i can only do the "rr" ocassionally and i can't maintain it
> i'm sure you must be able to get speech therapy for it... i know they help little Spanish-speaking kids in some places who can't do it. i'm seriously considering getting professional help for it... i know that sounds silly and extreme but i'm doing a degree in Spanish and want to use it in my future career so i should be able to pronounce things!!!


But you're in Glasgow! 
Do you have the chance to listen to Spanish spoken by natives? I'm sure that would help...


----------



## Dr. Quizá

jess oh seven said:
			
		

> not with an American accent  a Scottish one, maybe. the majority of English-speaking accents do not have a "rolled" R.
> 
> i can only do the "rr" ocassionally and i can't maintain it
> i'm sure you must be able to get speech therapy for it... i know they help little Spanish-speaking kids in some places who can't do it. i'm seriously considering getting professional help for it... i know that sounds silly and extreme but i'm doing a degree in Spanish and want to use it in my future career so i should be able to pronounce things!!!
> 
> http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/about.html > click Launch English Library > Liquids > consonants > manner > liquid > /r/ ... you'll see the American English R is nothing like the Spanish one.



En realidad el problema a veces no tiene solución por ser anatómico, estando en el frenillo de la lengua (tuve un profesor de lengua con ese problema, no podía ni pronunciar su apellido y decía llamarse "Paco Gamíguez"); aunque no creo que sea tu caso si dices que a veces te sale. ¿Por qué no lo grabas y lo subes aquí? Quizá no esté tan mal como crees.


----------



## DaleC

It's mostly about muscle control. You have to train some tongue muscles. 

To visualize one set of muscles, first fold a piece of paper in half so that each half is several inches high from the fold to the paper edge (e.g., fold and 8-1/2 x 11 widthwise). Now hold each half with a different hand and play with getting the paper to curve to one side, then the other. One half will be convex, the other concave. The folded paper models thin sheets of muscle close to the upper and lower tongue surfaces. 

Let the rim of your tongue rest at the gum line of the lower teeth; the tongue will be arched. Practice "flattening" the front one third or so of the tongue so that the edge or rim points toward the upper teeth. Alternately arch and flatten the tongue, paying attention to the sensation of the upper sheet muscle as it flattens and arches. The tongue as a whole should not be sliding forward and backward during this exercise. 

Now gently practice raising the front of the tongue to touch the roof of the mouth as for the sounds [t, d, n] and letting it back down. You may notice the tongue going into the arch posture as it approaches contact. Suppress the arching: keep the front of the tongue flat, more or less. 

Also while raising the front of the tongue, pay attention to the sensation of the tongue bridle stretching and to the sensations of muscles in the tongue, both toward the upper surface AND toward the the bottom and inside. 

To make the 'r' and 'rr', the tongue needs to be made tense. The error will be to *vertically *tense up near the upper surface. Near the upper surface, muscle activity should instead be horizontal (the flattening action). To stiffen the tongue for 'r' and 'rr', tense up instead at the bottom center of the tongue. Muscles in *that area *should pull simultaneously *up *and *forward*. While the tongue as a whole stays put, there should be upward plus forward muscle tension in the bottom center of the tongue, behind the bridle. 

What the location of contact? Many sources wrongly say the 'r' and 'rr' are "apical" (of the tip). This makes you think that the very rim of the tongue is poking the teeth head on. No, it's an area of the upper tongue a few millimeter back from the edge batting against the gum back of the upper teeth. During the articulation, the tongue rim may *graze *the upper teeth, but not nudge *into *them. 

Finally, since this whole articulation is an aerodynamic phenomenon, exhale harder.


----------



## darlene1271

That's a tough one for a lot of people--I had to help my daughter quite a while before she got it.  First of all, be sure to listen to how it's supposed to sound--Spanish TV if you're taking an online course, or don't have access to people who speak it as a first language.  I've done a little work with Lindamood Bell, a language program which focuses on mouth positions to form sounds correctly.  

The English "r" uses a stiff tongue--to make the rolled "rr", the tongue has to be loose at the tip.  The tip vibrates up and down rapidly just behind the top front teeth, while the sides of the tongue are pressed gently against the molars.  It is also possible (some say easier) to make the sound with no voice--take a deep breath and sigh as if you're really tired, don't let any air escape through your nose.

Hope that helps!


----------



## jess oh seven

Outsider said:
			
		

> But you're in Glasgow!
> Do you have the chance to listen to Spanish spoken by natives? I'm sure that would help...


Sí, vivo en Glasgow pero desafortunadamente no tengo ningún acento escocés.  Me sale la r pero no la rr....

Sí, tenemos profesores nativos y veo mucha tele española además de películas.


----------



## Phoebe1112

Hi! I don't know where to put this topic, but I'll put it here if you don't mind. 

I've tried and tried, but I can't pronounce the Spanish trilled r (as in _El pe*rr*o es grande_) like you're supposed to. I can make a sound that I think is similar, but it comes from way in the back of my throat and my tongue doesn't move. If I were talking to a native Spanish-speaker, would that sound really, _really_ weird, or just a little weird?

On another note, is it possible for most people to learn the trilled r? I would think it would have to be because if a large percentage of people couldn't do it, how could it end up as such a common sound in a language? My tongue is a bit long (I can touch my nose with it.) Does that mean anything?

Thanks a lot for any help you can give me!


----------



## mhp

Take a look at these:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=102740
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=10071
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=45550


----------



## Phoebe1112

Thanks! I think this topic is a bit different, though, because it focuses more on what things sound like to a native than on how to make the trilled R. But I really would like to produce the trilled r, so thank you!


----------



## chintino

mhp said:
			
		

> Take a look at these:
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=102740
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=10071
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=45550


 
Great links. Thanks!

- Chui


----------



## DavidFP

In Spanish-speaking countries the inability to pronounce the "erre" correctly is treated by speach therapists as a speech impediment, so it is a problem but not a big one.

Once you get started with the trilled "r", you can practice with the poem that a Méxican friend taught me, which is used for practice with children:

Erre con erre cigarro,
erre con erre barril.
Rapido ruedan los carros
cargados con azúcar
del ferrocarril.

I hope I got that right

And don't forget to trill the initial "ere"s, too.

Ooops!  Now I see two or three other versions of this poem on the links, above,  all the same idea.


----------



## Ana_Fi

Hi,

Here in Spain we use this phrase plenty of erres:
El perro de san Roque no tiene rabo porque Ramón Ramírez se lo ha cortado.

A thing that has shocked me is that I always thought we Spanish-speakers were the only ones who used the trilled r when speaking, but when I saw Harry Potter in original version (I think it was the first one, but I'm not sure), I could hear that sound when an actor was shouting or was angry. Maybe that only happens in British English. Did you notice it?


----------



## Jellby

Ana_Fi said:
			
		

> A thing that has shocked me is that I always thought we Spanish-speakers were the only ones who used the trilled r when speaking, but when I saw Harry Potter in original version (I think it was the first one, but I'm not sure), I could hear that sound when an actor was shouting or was angry. Maybe that only happens in British English. Did you notice it?



Is it in Scotland where they trill the R's? I've also heared trilled R's in Swedish, Finnish, Arabic... and a Czech guy I know seems to have no problem with them (I don't knw if they're used in Czech). So no, Spanish-speakers are not unique.


----------



## Sallyb36

Yes, it is in Scotland.


----------



## mariposita

They also trill in parts of France...

Just keep trying. It took me over a year of constant speaking to get one out. I thought I never would--and out it came when I least expected it. Still, my "rr" isn't as loose as a native speaker's...


----------



## Jazztronik

mariposita said:
			
		

> They also trill in parts of France...
> 
> Just keep trying. It took me over a year of constant speaking to get one out. I thought I never would--and out it came when I least expected it. Still, my "rr" isn't as loose as a native speaker's...



really??

I thought the French don't pronounce any 'r' like us, but they do more similarly to 'g', like pronouncing 'grgrgrgr' with a guttural sound as if you were gargling.


----------



## Outsider

The pronunciation of the R in French varies with dialect. In Southern France, it's pronounced as in Spanish.


----------



## Julián Martínez

En el francés estándar la R es diferente a la española, es mucho mas suave, el sonido parte del fondo de la boca aproximándose a la J española, pero no igual, no nos confundamos.Sin embargo en el sur y suroeste de Francia cuando la gente usa el dialecto si existe un sonido exactamente igual a la R española de Ramón, de Rueda o Carro.


----------



## justin

Simple, take "perro" and insert a vowel between the two -r's: "perero", then drop the vowel and pronounce each -r individually, gradually gliding from one to the other.


----------



## aleCcowaN

Phoebe1112 said:
			
		

> Hi! I don't know where to put this topic, but I'll put it here if you don't mind.
> 
> I've tried and tried, but I can't pronounce the Spanish trilled r (as in _El pe*rr*o es grande_) like you're supposed to. I can make a sound that I think is similar, but it comes from way in the back of my throat and my tongue doesn't move. If I were talking to a native Spanish-speaker, would that sound really, _really_ weird, or just a little weird?
> 
> On another note, is it possible for most people to learn the trilled r? I would think it would have to be because if a large percentage of people couldn't do it, how could it end up as such a common sound in a language? My tongue is a bit long (I can touch my nose with it.) Does that mean anything?
> 
> Thanks a lot for any help you can give me!


 
You'll be able to do it. We pronounce the "erre" with the tongue touching softly the litle edge of gum back our upper teeth (You're welcome to correct my English). If you do it well you'll feel some disconfort as you are not used to this position of the tongue.

Different back of the tongue ers are typical of English and French, among other languages and I feel such kind of discomfort when I make an effort to pronounce it well. I only succed with French like "roulotte", and other words with initial r.

But Spanish speakers tend to pronounce french r as a mixture of r (ere, not erre) with g. I was told in France: Continue to pronounce r in the Spanish way, and we will understand you better. The problem is we hear ourselves through air and bones, and the other ones only through air, that's why we imagine we pronounce quite well but we could have the wrong idea.

If this is of any help, a correct pronountiation of vowels and mainly the right sillabic rithm of Spanish will be more apreciated than a right r sound, as English r does not get us confuse at all.


----------



## Phoebe1112

mariposita said:
			
		

> They also trill in parts of France...
> 
> Just keep trying. It took me over a year of constant speaking to get one out. I thought I never would--and out it came when I least expected it. Still, my "rr" isn't as loose as a native speaker's...


 
Thanks! I'll keep trying. Some people have told me that it's genetic and I might never be able to do it at all, but I don't understand how that's possible.


----------



## Phoebe1112

aleCcowaN said:
			
		

> You'll be able to do it. We pronounce the "erre" with the tongue touching softly the litle edge of gum back our upper teeth (You're welcome to correct my English). If you do it well you'll feel some disconfort as you are not used to this position of the tongue.


 
Thank you! Are you supposed to touch with the very tip of your tongue or a little farther back?


----------



## mariposita

Ha--that's silly. It's not genetic, it just takes practice. Even my four-year-old who has been speaking and listening to Spanish his whole life has trouble with it. 

At one point in my life, I spoke French (I you don't use it, you lose it...) so I was also producing the sound too far back. For me what helped was pushing the sound to the front of my mouth and the tip of my tongue. For a while it sounded a lot worse, but eventually it started to work. I think you actually have to build up some muscle control in your tongue to make the sound.


----------



## aleCcowaN

Phoebe1112 said:
			
		

> Thank you! Are you supposed to touch with the very tip of your tongue or a little farther back?


 
You're welcome!

I regret my English is not good enough to explain it properly. In my little experience I realise that many Spanish students press their tongue right back their upper teeth and press, then they get a strange sound like a gargle.

The native speakers "master" trilled R at an age of 5 to 7. Babies start using a French r, and very slowly they cross the Pyrinees. Arrrrr you in a rrrrush?  Don't worry about the r!

A little piece of advice. My little French nieces tried last fall to teach me to pronounce French r. They said "good!", "no", "no,no,no", "better". I only can say I heard myself pronouncing the same r all the time. Get some native speaker to hear you and correct you. No magic, only practise!

Hope this help

Regards

Alec


----------



## Jonathan1975

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but it worked for me.  One of my Spanish profs in Costa Rica told me to lie on a bed with my head hanging off the edge.  This allows you to relax better and concentrate on the sound better.  Then it just involves putting your tongue behind your teeth and trying to untrain the way you've always done the sound.   I had the same problem of rolling the rr in the back of my throat, but after about 2 months of practice (not every day) I got it.  People here in Colombia say that my rr is good.


----------



## TheWhiteRabbit

I've taken three years of Spanish, but until this year, rolling the r for the /rr/ sound was never emphasized.  This year, my instructor had tried to get us to roll our r's, but most of us cannot do it.  One of my classmates can, and I can somewhat, but I would like to know how to get better at this.  Next year, 2007, I may be going to Spain for a couple weeks and would like to improve my accent, so I won't give away that I am a foreigner.

If anyone could help me, I would greatly appreciate it.


----------



## Alundra

Here you have some drills to practice:

Ejercicios para la pronunciación.

Alundra.


----------



## vince

TheWhiteRabbit said:
			
		

> I've taken three years of Spanish, but until this year, rolling the r for the /rr/ sound was never emphasized.  This year, my instructor had tried to get us to roll our r's, but most of us cannot do it.  One of my classmates can, and I can somewhat, but I would like to know how to get better at this.  Next year, 2007, I may be going to Spain for a couple weeks and would like to improve my accent, so I won't give away that I am a foreigner.
> 
> If anyone could help me, I would greatly appreciate it.



Can you pronounce the single "r"? as in "ca*r*a"? It sounds sort of like English "d" but it is tapped.


Once you got that down pat, hold your tongue to pronounce this r, but instead of just tapping once, blow continuously. The crucial bit is to not press your tongue against your throat, but just hold it there and relax a bit so that your breath will cause your tongue to vibrate and make the characteristic "trill"!


----------



## MagicMoose

Hola a todos.  I've been learning Spanish for around a year, but I have never been able to make the "rr" sound properly, I've always had to mimic it by doing it from the back of my throat.
I was recently in Spain on holiday with my girlfriend and she pointed out to me that I don't even pronounce my R correctly in English!  She said it sounded more like the "WR" sound.  I'd never noticed before, but she's right.

Has anyone here managed to overcome a similar problem?
Any advice would be appreciated.  Thanks.


----------



## alc112

Hi!!
Why don't you try to do the onomatopoeia of a Parrot? 
It's very similar to the RR sound.


----------



## lazarus1907

Try this: Put the tip your tongue on the little bump above your teeth on the roof of your mouth, and ensure with the rest of the tongue that no air comes out of your mouth if you try to exhale. Try releasing the air pushing fairly hard, and this will make the tongue flap; remember that it is the stream of air what causes the vibrations. The tip of the tongue should be allowed to relax slightly.


----------



## TheWhiteRabbit

I'm apparently not too good at moving my tongue around and getting it to stay in place. I'm having trouble with all of this.

alc112-  What do you mean the onomatopoeia of a Parrot?


----------



## mariposita

> Try this: Put the tip your tongue on the little bump above your teeth on the roof of your mouth, and ensure with the rest of the tongue that no air comes out of your mouth if you try to exhale. Try releasing the air pushing fairly hard, and this will make the tongue flap; remember that it is the stream of air what causes the vibrations. The tip of the tongue should be allowed to relax slightly.


 
That's the best explanation that I've ever seen of how to make the sound. That's exactly it! Keep practicing and don't be discouraged if people know that you are a foreigner. The important thing is to communicate. 

And for us Americans I think the sounds that most betray us are the /t/ and the /s/.


----------



## Tensai

i am a native Chinese speaker, i can not trill the Spanish r at all.......and for whatever reason, my Japanese friend can do it...


----------



## shoam

ERRE con ERRE guitarra
ERRE con ERRE barril
que rapido ruedan 
las ruedas del ferrocarril


----------



## elena1980

Try to make a moto sound: rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..


----------



## Phoebe1112

I think I'm not holding my tongue in the right place because I can only try for a few minutes before the pressure makes my head feel funny. But I keep trying to add more because usually the air just blows right past my tongue.


----------



## mazbook

I really think that genetics enters into it somewhat.  From age 3 to 6, I had two teachers,  my  paternal grandmother , who could trill an  r with no problem...she even used a loud, trilled r to get people's attention, and my mother, who, no matter hard she tried, couldn't trill an r, at all.  They were both English speakers, although my mother spoke a bit of German.

No matter how much she and I tried, my grandmother could NEVER teach me how to trill the r.  And we did try, over and over and over again.

Now that I've lived in México for nearly nine years and have a beautiful, Spanish (only) speaking Mexican wife, I have finally gotten to the point where SOMETIMES I can trill an r.  She tells me she can always tell when I've had more than two drinks, as then I begin trilling my r's.


----------



## DavidFP

I remember that two native speakers, one from México and the other from El Salvador, each suggested that I start with the "D" sound and trill it.  The sound immediately becomes the same as a trilled "R" once past the initial "D".  The initial "D" sounded funny to me but others seemed to accept it, and I have heard native speakers that sound like they do the same thing when they emphasize the initial "ere" for a non-native speaker.

This may be worth a try.


----------



## skatoulitsa

Some regions of greece trill the R too (more than others), and although we don't trill our Rs as much as the spanish speakers, all greeks (as far as I know) can trill the R. I can keep trilling for as long as my breath lasts.

So, I will try to describe it as best as I can...
You have to place the tip of your tongue about half a centimeter behind your teeth. Only the tip of your tongue should touch the roof of your mouth, and it should be a little further back than where you would touch to pronounce the letter t.
The exact spot is the following: Have you noticed that the curb of the roof of your mouth doesn't start immediately behind your teeth but a little further back? The tip of your tongue should touch the *exact* spot where the curb of your roof starts. *No other part* of your tongue should touch your roof.
Start by trying to say Trrrrrrrr. If your tongue doesn't vibrate it means you are keeping it too stiff. You should keep it into place, but loosen the tip a bit so that it can do the trilling. 

And there is nothing genetic about it. The problem when we learn different languages is that some sounds just don't exist in our native language, and our ears and mouth are not trained to recognize and produce them.
 Just practice practice practice


----------



## Jellby

Phoebe1112 said:
			
		

> I think I'm not holding my tongue in the right place because I can only try for a few minutes before the pressure makes my head feel funny. But I keep trying to add more because usually the air just blows right past my tongue.



Just a piece of advice: it's harder to make your tongue trill once the air is already blowing. If you don't get the trill with the first blow, don't keep on blowing and trying to tighten your tongue; instead, stop blowing and start again, maybe with a different placement of the tip of your tongue. Also, don't blow too hard, it doesn't help.

As other people have explained, the tongue should block all airflow, its sides against the upper molars, its tip against one of the first small ridges on the upper alveolar ridge.


----------



## SoccerFanatic

I dont have a problem With the "r" the thing i have trouble with is holding the rrrrrrrrr  like in spanish songs "rrrrrapido" my whole family can do it but me could you help?


----------



## caballosgirl

I'm an Ohioan too.   bienvenidos!

bueno.  I just kept practicing it and practicing it until I got it(I'm in an advanced college spanish class now). I FINALLY was able to roll my r's after awhile.  Try and purr, say vroom, have it sound like a double d like in ladder(though that never worked for me).  Let your tongue vibrate.  And please, don't pronounce your r's like you do in english.  It sounds baaad when compared to a native.  Think of the Spanish r as a "d".  for example take the name Míriam.  Say Medium and that would sound like Míriam to a spanish speaker.  The sounds are much shorter in spanish, too.  

saludos y buena suerte


----------



## Namakemono

> ¿Como se dice "I cannot roll my r's" en español?


 
No sé pronunciar la erre fuerte.


----------



## Phoebe1112

My dad says he heard you should try try trilling it underwater. Has anyone heard of that?

My Spanish teacher says you trill the r after an l. Can anyone give me an example of a word like that? I want to try to practice. I still can't do the rolled r, but she says I can approximate well enough.

Thank you!


----------



## caballosgirl

well......

i haven't heard of that....

as far as I know, I do believe I make the erre sound relatively correctly, but not all the time. Most of the time I can trill it, though. 

I had problems pronouncing the English r for a long time. Actually the Spanish r(not erre) comes to me a bit more easily and sounds a bit better to me. And I've been born and raised here in Midwestern USA where our r's are gutteral. I actually had speech therapy for it. So for you spanish speakers that have trouble with the english r:

pone la lengua a los ambos dientes de atrás y arriba. sonríe cuándo pronuncia la r, es más facíl al primero cuándo estás sonriendo O pone tus labios en un circulo como una "o" española o inglés. olvidé mis frases que aprendí pero la siguiente es buena para practicar tus eres ingléses. Look over here there and everywhere, there are many horses or riders. Barns are great for riding horses. 

saludos


----------



## mochinno

This a weird way to learn how to trill correctley but it works; make a hoiking noise like you are coughing something up, the distorted growling sound is familiar to anyone suffering from a cold which I'm sure is something everybody has experienced. You then put the tip of your tounge on the roof of your mouth, behind the front teeth and before the roof of your mouthcurves upwards as explained by others above. The sound should now sound more like the revving of a motorbike (if your tounge is not tense.) Now all you have to do is add a consonant to this action and you will trill it. "Trrrrr" works best as it is most like the sound you aim to make in the word "erre".


----------



## dodge

i almost got the sound but cant get enough vibration... could someone draw in paint exact toung positioning and shape? thanx


----------



## Outsider

Choose "vibrantes", then click on [r], in the right hand side.


----------



## dodge

Outsider said:


> then click on [r], in the right hand side.



thanx, it is greatly appreciated... il let you know if i manage to do it...


----------



## dodge

that really helped, now i realise what my problem is... i cant block the air with my tongue, since theres too much air expelled from the side, theres not enough vibration... any tips for this?


----------



## fenixpollo

The tongue needs to be relaxed enough to let the air do most of the vibrating; rather than trying to make the muscle do all of the work.


----------



## Reina140

What a difficult thing to try to "learn" and explain.  I've been rolling my tongue ever since I was little kid.  I would pretend the phone was ringing (me making the ringing noise).  Or imitating the pigeons outside  or a cat purring.  I don't know if any of those tips could help anyone, but that's how I learned I imagine, although I was a child then.


----------



## SonicChao

D: I can not make this sound no matter how hard I try. I hear 'practice' and 'repetition' but I don't know how to even start.


----------



## bluemptysoul

say "repetition" but focus on the "RE" <-- say it with an accent or something


----------



## Reina140

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=45550&highlight=trill

Hopefully, this will help you!  Good Luck!


----------



## SonicChao

o.o Say 'repetición'? (because the first r sounds like rr?)


----------



## Marinagg

try putting the tip of your tonge on your palate...


----------



## SonicChao

Which one? :O


----------



## dodge

seems impossible to learn... i still cant get it


----------



## paquijote

Swettenham said:


> See, this is what's most difficult for me: rolling rr after a consonant such as *n* or *s*.  "Me haces reír."  I have to pause between *haces* and *reír*.



Don't voice the "r" at the beginning of words such as that.  For example, the word "perro" is said with the "rr" being voiced, whereas "reir" or "rabo" are not voiced, only air is flowing.  This should help with this problem, because a slight pause before the word following the consonants "n" or "s" is forced.


----------



## Outsider

paquijote said:


> Don't voice the "r" at the beginning of words such as that.  For example, the word "perro" is said with the "rr" being voiced, whereas "reir" or "rabo" are not voiced, only air is flowing.


The correct term is "trilled", not "voiced". Both Spanish Rs are _voiced_ (Welsh has a voiceless one; it's a very unusual and difficult to pronounce sound).


----------



## dodge

ok... so i got the vibration down...

but i still have a problem, the letter thats coming through is L not R... any help please?


----------



## Laura Maria

Swettenham said:


> See, this is what's most difficult for me: rolling rr after a consonant such as *n* or *s*. "Me haces reír." I have to pause between *haces* and *reír*.


 
Actually, even for an "s"-pronouncing (not-Andalucian, not Caribbean) native Spanish speaker, it is quite normal NOT to pronounce a rolled "rr" after an "s".  "Las rosas" generally sounds a bit like "la rrosas" no matter who says it.  This is normal.


----------



## friedfysh

I have no problem with RR but many problems with R, also I find internet guides quite confusing when they suggest different ways to change an English R... I never knwo which sound they mean. For me an English, Scotish and American R are all very different sounds. A scottish R sounds a lot like a spanish "RR" to me and an American R somethign like a shrt version of the sound I'd make if I were imitating a bear growl... "Grrr" try listening to the way the word "Really" changes between an Englishman and an American.


----------



## Jellby

friedfysh said:


> I have no problem with RR but many problems with R, also I find internet guides quite confusing when they suggest different ways to change an English R... I never knwo which sound they mean. For me an English, Scotish and American R are all very different sounds. A scottish R sounds a lot like a spanish "RR" to me and an American R somethign like a shrt version of the sound I'd make if I were imitating a bear growl... "Grrr" try listening to the way the word "Really" changes between an Englishman and an American.



The "r" sound is most similar to the (American?) intervocalic "t", so "it is" could sound as "iris" for a Spanish speaker. If you know Red Hot Chili Peppers' song "Give It Away", it is very clear there, they say "guivirugüey" (or even "guivirrugüey").


----------



## Outsider

¡Buen ejemplo! A mí me suena como "giviriuey" o "givirriuey".


----------



## Arrius

There is a condition of the mouth in which people are said (literally) to be tongue-tied: the ligament beneath the tongue is attached to so much of the underside ot the tongue that it is impossible to trill an R. A fellow student of mine who took Swedish as a subsidiary subject was hampered in this way for this reason. My own son too, I was unable to get to pronounce the initial Spanish R or the intermediate RR (as a toddler he even had trouble with the English one-tap R and used to talk of "cwossing the woad"). This condition (curable by a minor operation) does not affect the enunciation of either the standard English or American Rs, but if you are a Scot, you are in trouble:it will be excrrrewciatingly embarrrassing!


----------



## Pedro P. Calvo Morcillo

Jellby said:


> The "r" sound is most similar to the (American?) intervocalic "t", so "it is" could sound as "iris" for a Spanish speaker. If you know Red Hot Chili Peppers' song "Give It Away", it is very clear there, they say "guivirugüey" (or even "guivirrugüey").


¡Es verdad! Siempre agudo nuestro Jellby .


----------



## Perico Nuevo

I can roll my rrs, but apparently I have a tendency to use the back of my mouth instead of the tip of my tongue, creating a very "french-sounding" r. I find the word _perro_ especially difficult. Any suggestions?


----------



## Lules

Try a motor-like sound: "Vrrrrmm, vrrrrrmm" and look where is your tongue when you make it.

Spanish children have to learn how to pronounce the "R" too, it doesn't seem to be a natural sound for us. This sentence is what we use to practice: "El perro de San Roque no tiene rabo porque Ramón Rodriguez se lo ha robado"

Good luck!


----------



## Perico Nuevo

¡Qué bueno   gracias!


----------



## Arrius

How can you be sure that you are capable of rolling your RRs and initial Rs in Spanish if. in fact, you don't? Some people are "tongue-tied", that is to say they have a stronger skin attachment under their tongues which renders vibrating the tip of the tongue against the alveolar ridge quite impossible. A friend of mine at university did not know he was unable to roll his Rs until he started ancillary Swedish, and my own son discovered that he too had this condition when he started Spanish. Have you ever managed to imitate a Scots accent successfully, which has this same R? Being able to manage a French uvular R or the American burred R does not guarantee this ability. Keep trying the exercises recommended by *Lules*, perhaps trying to imitate a machine gun occasionally as a change from a car engine, and if it never works, either reconcile yourself to a future of saying _but_ when you mean _dog_, and _pear_ when you mean _bitch_ in Spanish, or ask your doctor if a little surgical snip would solve the problem, (both friend and son chose the former alternative).


----------



## Lules

In the meantime, you can take some confort in hearing how the French struggle with the Spanish "J" or the English "H" (_Ello_, may I _elp_ you?)


----------



## VancouverWilliam

You can trill!!!  I tried for 4 years and just picked it up today. There is good advice here except the bed ..hang your head was negative for me.  Like most of you I could only trill at the back of my throat. 
the post above from Mochinno seems good but be really forceful. don't worry about getting the trill right to the front of the gum ridge that will come. work your way up. try every different combo, like the middle of your tongue might be easiest to get going first. One guy said he was so forceful his vision jumped. forceful can't hurt. I can't say exactly why it started to work and why it didn't work before especially close to the gum line. I spent maybe 10-20 minutes per time  while waking or sitting around about 100 or 200 times.  now i have a pretty good trill and am excited to get it working with the rr etc. I am not sure how good it sounds yet but I know it is a hell of a lot better. 
good luck. be crazy forceful and don't worrry where you get the trill at first so long as you can move up from the rear.You will do it. adios


----------



## DavidFP

As I said above, if you initiate the trill with a "D" sound (tongue tip between your teeth), and skatoulitsa said, initiate it with a "T" sound (also tongue tip between the teeth) it becomes much easier!  Just move your tongue back just a bit to the roof of your mouth and keep it going. This is starting from the front instead of the back, so its like a short cut.

"Erre con erre guitarra, erre con erre barril..."

David


----------



## Reicita

Hello. My father had the same problem and he was born in Argentina from Japanese parents, and his friends mocked him for his poor pronounciation of the trilled r. Later he was able to pronounce it even when a doctor had told him that the reason was that the tongue's fraenum was too short, so I don't think you having a long tongue might be the problem. It takes a lot of practise, years even, to pronounciate it correclty.

What some do (me included) is to "fake" the sound leaving your tongue's tip raised high against the upper teeth leaving just a very small gap for the air to flow and produce a sound very similar to the trilled r but without the tongue vibrating. I've discussed this at phonetics class and it seems to work, at least for me. Hope it helped.


----------



## Reicita

Phoebe1112 said:


> My Spanish teacher says you trill the r after an l. Can anyone give me an example of a word like that?



The words "AL REVES" (backwards, upside down) seems to do the trick.


----------



## lazarus1907

Reicita said:


> What some do (me included) is to "fake" the sound leaving your tongue's tip raised high against the upper teeth leaving just a very small gap for the air to flow and produce a sound very similar to the trilled r but without the tongue vibrating. I've discussed this at phonetics class and it seems to work, at least for me. Hope it helped.


*HOW THE R IS PRONOUNCED*

Position: The tip of the tongue should be pressed lightly against the alveolar ridge (like the 'd' or 't' in American English, which are the closest sounds to the Spanish 'r') or slightly above it if it doesn't work. The tongue should be elevated, flat, and pressing hard against the upper teeth on both sides, so that the air has no option but making its way through pushing the tip of the tongue.

Tension: While the sides of the tongue maintain a considerable tension to prevent the air from escaping laterally, the tip of the tongue should be slightly more relaxed to allow the air to push it, but keeping a little of tension and flexibility so that it quickly returns to its original position after the burst (due to its natural elasticity -don't try to move it yourself), only to be pushed again by the continuous air stream that will build up pressure again on the roof of the mouth.

Other details: A typical R vibrates two to three times, and you don't have to move your tongue during the process; only maintain the right posture and tension on each part of the tongue. If your tongue is not correctly positioned, or is too lax on its sides, the air will escape and you'll get no sound. If the tip of your tongue is too tense, the air willl force its way out through the sides; if your tip is too relaxed, the air will push it, but it will not return to its original position making it thrill.

See it working: You can observe how this works if you close your lips and try to blow: too soft and you just blow air gently; too hard and your mouth will turn into a balloon; get the right pressure, and you'll be making an R with your lips. Ask any Spanish speaker to try to say "rana" articulating the R with his lips instead of the tongue, and you'll see how he struggles at the beginning to get the right pressure (due to lack of practice, of course) in order to produce a clear sound. The proper R is no different.


----------



## Reicita

lazarus1907 said:


> *HOW THE R IS PRONOUNCED*
> 
> The tip of the tongue should be pressed lightly against the alveolar ridge (like the 'd' or 't' in American English, which are the closest sounds to the Spanish 'r') or slightly above it if it doesn't work. The tongue should be elevated, flat, and pressing hard against the upper teeth on both sides, so that the air has no option but making its way through pushing the tip of the tongue.
> 
> While the sides of the tongue maintain a considerable tension to prevent the air from escaping laterally, the tip of the tongue should be slightly more relaxed to allow the air to push it, but keeping a little of tension and flexibility so that it quickly returns to its original position after having been pushed, only to be pushed out by the continuous air stream that will build up pressure again on the roof of the mouth.
> 
> A typical R vibrates two to three times, and you don't have to move your tongue during the process; only maintain the right posture and tension on each part of the tongue. If your tongue is not correctly positioned, or is too lax on its sides, the air will escape and you'll get no sound. If the tip of your tongue is too tense, the air willl force its way out through the sides, and if your tip is too relaxed, the air will push it, but it will not return to its original position making it thrill. You can observe how this works if you close your lips and try to blow: too soft and you just blow air gently; too hard and your mouth will turn into a balloon; get the right pressure, and you'll be making an R with your lips.



That's actually very helpful! Thanks so much! It's difficult for me to become aware of the position of my tongue and the such but I guess I'll just have to get used to it if I want to speak correctly my own language. Thanks again, your posts are very useful!


----------



## lazarus1907

Reicita said:


> That's actually very helpful! Thanks so much! It's difficult for me to become aware of the position of my tongue and the such but I guess I'll just have to get used to it if I want to speak correctly my own language. Thanks again, your posts are very useful!


It is a description too technical for many people, but it is the one you'll find in specialized phonetics books (the average native is not aware of all these details, of course), and maybe the best option for those -like me- who don't have a talent to easily imitate foreign sounds. I'm glag I could help.


----------



## VancouverWilliam

Thanks guys, With getting the initial trill I am finally able to  practice the different techniques, increasing my tongues dexterity I hope, for hopefully a very good sound.  

It was said here somewhere that the Spanish R is close to an English d or t sound. Is this always the case or more in the case of a tapped but not rolled R as in Pero? 

I am assuming the next problem is while trilling we have to shape a sound that sounds a bit like some combination of  R, T and D.


----------



## DavidFP

Ooops!  I should have said tongue behind the upper teeth to start the trill with a D or T sound.  (not between)

The R vs T vs D issue shouldn't be a problem.  The trilled R and D are about the same sound and T is just an unvoiced variant.


----------



## MarX

Phoebe1112 said:


> Thanks! I think this topic is a bit different, though, because it focuses more on what things sound like to a native than on how to make the trilled R. But I really would like to produce the trilled r, so thank you!


Hej!

Al fin y al cabo, if one doesn't manage to pronounce the RR like most Spanish speakers do, it's not a disaster.

Even among native Spanish speakers there are enough who don't trill it.
-Costa Ricans RR sounds like English R.
-In parts of Argentina and Chile the RR sounds like ZH, the singer Sosa has this kind of RR.
-In Puerto Rico the RR sounds like German R, or even like H, like in Brazilian Portuguese.

Saludos


----------



## cipotarebelde

My Spanish-only step son couldn't do it until he was 7 or so. It can be learned. Its just easier to learn at 7 than 37!


----------



## mariposita

So true, cipotarebelde... My son (bilingual) didn't really get it until he was five or six. He still doesn't say the American /r/ in _girl _quite right. Some sounds are trickier than others. It took me years to _soltar la_ /r/. One day, it just happens. It really has to do with pronouncing the vowels and other sounds in the correct positions and with the proper accentuation, rhythm, air flow, and mouth tension, as well.


----------



## RicardoIsMyRealName

Phoebe1112 said:


> My Spanish teacher says you trill the r after an l. Can anyone give me an example of a word like that? ...
> Thank you!



'Alrededor' is an example. Your teacher meant that we write '-lr-', but we pronounce '-lrr-'.

And that goes for the '-nr-' combination as well. 'Enredar', for instance.


----------



## Outsider

Another example is the common given name "Enrique".



VancouverWilliam said:


> It was said here somewhere that the Spanish R is close to an English d or t sound. Is this always the case or more in the case of a tapped but not rolled R as in Pero?


The tapped "r" in "pero" is very, very close to the tapped "t"/"d" of American English. Certainly close enough for a beginner. What may hard is to force yourself to replicate that sound in positions you're not used to, such as between a consonant and a vowel, or vice-versa (I think the American tapped "t"/"d" always occurs between two vowels).

The trilled "rr" as in "perro" is a sort of lengthened "r". So, both are similar to the American sound. But in the trill the tongue vibrates a couple of times in a clear, sharp way.


----------



## chickendude

I have a few questions about r/rr pronunciation in Spanish. I've spent pretty much all day the past couple months trying to figure out how to do the alveolar trill (i was never able to make that machine gun sound with my tongue as a kid, so i really didn't have any kind of reference point). Yesterday i was planning to come here and ask what sound i should use in the meantime if i am unable to produce an alveolar trill, when walking home i somehow stumbled across a sound that i think is an alveolar trill. However, there are a couple things i am not sure about. When my tongue is flapping, it feels like it taps against my bottom row of teeth (waking up this morning after practicing it all night seems to reinforce this!). Also, maybe i just need to practice more but, especially when i try to add some tone to it my tongue slides forward and presses into my top row of teeth.

For r, how is this sound produced? Listening to speakers on TV and on podcasts, it sounds like they start to trill but only do one or two taps, whereas when i have been making this sound i've been making a sound which is similar to an english 'd' sound. Words like 'verde' and 'cuatro' trip me up. It doesn't sound the same as when native speakers say these words, there is more space between the tap of the 'r' and 'd' of 'verde' and the 't' and 'r' of 'cuatro' when i say them.

I tried to find some place where you could listen to it online without having to download the file, but none of them seemed to work for .wma files, but here is a clip of me trying to trill.
soundupload.com/audio/edd99n4bnzzvmhzn


----------



## Outsider

Outsider said:


> Choose "vibrantes", then click on [r], in the right hand side.


----------



## chickendude

I had already checked that site out, but not since i was able to produce a trill yesterday. After practicing some more it doesn't tap my teeth as often  From the pronunciation for the single 'r' it seems like i am pronouncing it right, but i can't seem to pronounce 'cuatro' and have it sound natural! That is a really cool website though.


----------



## MWIH

Okay, I need help with my r's. I'm Brazilian, so I have no problem pronouncing r's that are in the beginning and in the middle of a syllable, because they are rolled in Portuguese, so I'm used to rolling them.  However, I have an extremely hard time pronouncing the r's when they are at the end of the syllable. For example, I cannot pronounce it in words such as _por, porque, dor, estar, beber, etc...._ When I roll my r's, I pronounce them the way the t's are pronounced in _little_ or the d's in _ladder_. I have tried to search for help online before, but I only find things that help with words such as _para, _or _rato_, where the r is in the middle or in the beginning of the syllable, and I already know how to roll those r's. 

I need to correct my r's very quickly because everytime I speak in class my teacher points it out to me, and I'm vying for one of only 22 seats in next year's AP class, and I'm afraid my teacher may not consider me for the class because others have already got their r's down and I do not. Applications are to be handed in this January... please, help me!


----------



## JB

I don't understand your question.
Are you talking about the single "R", as in "caro" or the double as in "carro" or "Roberto"?  (The initial "r" or Roberto and the double of "carro" are identical.

A final "R" (end of the word) is not "rolled" as in "Carro".

Also, a teaching technique to get Americans to do a single "R" (as in "caro") is exactly what you said - repeating the double "TT" in word pairs such as
Betty Boop - beddy bye
Catty - caddy
itty bitty - old biddy

The American "tt" and the Spanish "R" (not word initial, but medial or final) are almost identical.

I am not sure what you are asking, or your teacher means.

*However, before you respond*, please look in the WR Dictionary under Pronunciation
http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?forumtitles=1&tranword=pronunciation
and study the 3 threads (at least) discussing R and RR.

Y hay cuatro hilos más aquí, bajo "pronunciación":
http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?forumtitles=1&spen=pronunciaci%C3%B3n


----------



## MWIH

Lo siento, no sabía que había otro hilo (aprendí una palabra nueva! Gracias). 

Here's my issue, I can pronounce the r's when they are in the middle or the beginning of the syllable. Meaning I can pronounce words such as these: pa-ra, ca-ra, prac-ti-ca, etc.... I pronounce the r's in the beginning of a word the same way (I would say the first r in Roberto the way I say the r in cara), which I have to work on also.

However, I cannot pronounce the r when it's at the end of a syllable. Meaning, I can't pronounce words such as these: ver-bo, es-tar, por-que, por. In Brazilian Portuguese, these r's are soft and almost silent, which is why I have so much trouble with them. They almost sound like the _j _in Spanish. 

The simplest way I can put this is with the verb llorar; I can pronounce the first r, but the not last. 

I just wanted to know a trick on how to learn how to pronounce r's at the end of the syllable, because they do not involve the same tongue movements as the _tt _in little, which is how I roll my r's. This is because I've always heard the r at the end of a syllable pronounced like the rr. The fonética website I found in one of the threads should be helpful. 

Gracias.


----------



## MarieSuzanne

No acabo de entender tu problema, porque, por muchas diferencias que haya con el portugués, la "r" de _para _y la de _por_ o de _puerta_ suenan igual (al menos, yo las digo exactamente igual). Por lo tanto, si puedes pronunciarla bien en _para_ tendrías que poder decir bien _por_ o _puerta_. En todo caso, si por algún motivo no es así, yo te aconsejaría que pienses la palabra como si siguiera una vocal (por ej., "poro", "puerata"), empezaras a decirlo así... y a último momento suprimieras esa vocal. O la dijeras al principio y luego fueras suprimiéndola cada vez más. No sé, es lo único que se me ocurre para ayudarte. Espero que lo logres, ya que hay tanto en juego.


----------



## Griff91

I am having problems with making that sound, and I was wondering if someone had a few tips on how to make that sound.


----------



## Txiri

Practice!

It is somewhat similar (but not identical to) the --dd-- sound in --ladder-- or the -- tt -- sound in -- letter --.  If you can isolate the --dd-- or the -- tt -- AND extend it ... that might do it!

You could also practice with intervocalic --rr--'s:  

la rata
la riata
la risa
la Rusia
la rota


----------



## WestSideGal

An easy trick is to to imitate the ringing of a telephone (I'm looking at your age and maybe you don't remember what the "ringing" of a telephone sounds like!!!): "Brrrrringggggg!" That trill is essentially the "rr" in Spanish.  Your tongue needs to be in a relaxed, slightly cupped articulatory position as if you were going to say /r/, and just force breath out.

Maybe someone else has a better suggestion.


----------



## Vell Bruixot

WestSideGal said:


> Maybe someone else has a better suggestion.


 
I find that 2 litres of a good Magellanic beer such as Austral does wonders for my pronunciation of "rr" and every other aspect of the language.


----------



## Mephistofeles

It is very similar to your "r" but kind of stronger. Try to imitate the sound some animals make (groaring) Do you remember the serie called "Daria" in MTV? the's a character named Chuk who is always doing that sound.... it's like, dont tense your tongue, place the tip beneat the front part of the palate and try to make some air get out just through the tip and the palate.


----------



## Judica

Griff91 said:


> I am having problems with making that sound, and I was wondering if someone had a few tips on how to make that sound.



Sure. Practice making the cat purring sound with your tongue. You should be good after that.

"Purrrrrr."

Remember the, sound a woman makes when using the sound sensually. Or the sound made if you put a card near bicycle spokes. Or a machine gun, "brrrrrrrrt"!

Onomatopoeia.


----------



## palfergoy

It's really hard to describe in words... but here I found something that may be helpfull

http://spanish.about.com/cs/pronunciation/ht/rr.htm

the most important thing is to keep your tongue pressed to the upper palete while you blow out the air....

I hope it helps!


----------



## Judica

I think the machine gun noise is easier for Anglos. Its familiar and wide spread.

Brrrrrrrrat, Brrrrrrrrat!


----------



## WestSideGal

Vell Bruixot said:


> I find that 2 litres of a good Magellanic beer such as Austral does wonders for my pronunciation of "rr" and every other aspect of the language.


 
Sounds good to me, too!!


----------



## bailarín

I had trouble when I first tried making this sound, and depending on the order of letters (like an "rr" after an "s"), I still do.  I couldn't make machine gun sounds or telephone sounds like some had suggested.

So this is what I propose... Go somewhere where you can yell at the top of your lungs (maybe your car while you're driving).  Shout the word "¡socorro!" as loud as you can... relaxing the tip of your tongue on the alveolar region of your mouth (fancy word for upper part of your mouth towards the front).  And that's how I figured out how to do what in linguistic circles is called the "alveolar trill."


----------



## fenixpollo

If you want to know how to pronounce the Spanish erre, you should search our dictionary. On the dictionary entry page for rr, you will see a long list of threads that ask the same question as this one. 

Please remember to search the wordreference.com dictionary before opening a new thread.  Thank you.


----------



## Pierre Chang

just try to imitate the cat's purr

that's all

rrrrrr


----------



## bailarín

I understand what most of you are trying to say by telling Griff91 to make telephone sounds, machine gun sounds, cat purrs, say a word over and over again, but this is not useful in my opinion.  As someone who has had the same problem, and someone who has been given the same advice (trust me, I sat in my room saying words with "erre" over and over again). Griff91, try the method I proposed.  I actually helped a fellow student of mine years ago with this method, and it worked for him, too.


----------



## Seikun

I know this sound is really hard. I am a native and I sometimes have problems to reproduce the rr sound.

Here's something I found, Hope it helps.
----

1. Keep in mind that there are two R sounds in Spanish: the single R sound and the double R (or RR) sound.


Keep in mind that the single R sound is used whenever the single R appears in a word, except when it's at the beginning of a word or after an L, N or S, when the RR sound is used.
The RR sound is also used to sound the letter combination of 'rr,' which is sometimes viewed as a separate letter of the Spanish alphabet.
Keep in mind that the Spanish R and RR don't share the distinctive R sound of English. Think of them as separate letters entirely.
Remember that the RR is a trilled sound formed by a flapping of the tongue against the front roof of the mouth.
Visualize the front of your tongue as a flag flapping in a vigorous breeze.
Now try purring like a cat. If you've succeeded, you are approximating the RR sound.
Alternatively, relax and pretend you're a kid making the sound of a revving-up motor.
Another way is to pretend it is extremely cold. Now make the sound of exhaling with you lips flapping together. Now do the same thing with your tongue against the roof of your mouth.
Alternatively, loosely hold the tip of your tongue at the front roof of your mouth. Now try blowing air between the tip of the tongue and roof of your mouth while you partly relax the tongue.
*Tips:*


Try to imitate the sound of the trilled R as it is pronounced by native speakers.
Don't even be tempted to pronounce the trilled R as the R is pronounced in English.


----------



## JB

Please note what fenixpollo said:  Check the WR Dictionary for RR
http://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=rr

In the future, please ALWAYS check the WR Dictionary for existing prio threads on a question.  If you question isn't fully answered, you can add a post to continue an existing thead, rather than start a duplicate, triplicate, etc. on the same topic.

This thread is now #16 on the list, and is now closed.


----------



## Poor

Forgive me if there is already a thread about this, but I could not find one.

_Moderator note: This question was merged with one of the many previous threads with the same question. You can find them all here:_ pronunciation rr.

I am very confused about how the Spanish 'r' is supposed to be pronounced.  I've heard that it is nothing like the English 'r' but when I hear a native speaker, I think they sound similar.  From what I read online, the Spanish 'r' sounds more like the English 'dd' in ladder.  But this confuses me even more because I say the word like "lad-der."  I never thought 'dd' sounded any different from a single 'd'.  Could anyone explain it any better?


----------



## languagelearner123

http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/spanish/frameset.html

Try this website.  We used it in my Spanish phonology class.  It explains exactly how to pronounce different sounds (in Spanish) and lets you watch a person make them so you can see how they make the sound and listen to it at the same time.


----------



## Poor

Thanks!  That is a great site.  I have a question though.  Can you continuously pronounce the Spanish 'r' in the same way as the English 'r'?  Such as saying "ARRRRRRRRRR!"  Or is it like letters such as 't', where you can only pronounce the sound once per syllable?


----------



## Aidanriley

You can say rrrrrrrr in Spanish too. 

I hear a lot of Spanish students pushing down on letters for an extended period of time, while they try to remember what they want to say next, hehe.


----------



## Harmattan

> I've heard that it is nothing like the English 'r'


 Which English or Spanish variants?



> the Spanish 'r' sounds more like the English 'dd' in ladder.


 Again, which English and Spanish pronuntiations? 

Besides the first link they've given to you, I suggest you to try http://es.forvo.com/languages/es/ where there are maaaaany examples of Spanish speaking people saying words with r and rr.

And yes, we do pronounce rr a lot. In fact it's a sound that can be quite difficult for foreigners (specially French ones) (try: "El perro de San Roque no tiene rabo porque Ramón Rámirez se lo ha cortado")


----------



## elianecanspeak

The trilled rs (rr) (rrr) (rrrr) seem to vary so much in length from region to region -- like the difference between Cuban and Puerto Rican pronunciation.  Is that something I can ask about on this thread?


----------



## ChocolateLover

Hi,

It will probably take several years to completely master, but this website allows you to hear and see the Spanish pronunciation. It includes the Spanish "r" and "rr".

http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/#

With regard to the "ladder" example, try saying "ladder" really sloppy and fast and you will probably find out that the "dd" sounds like the Spanish "r."

I hope this helps


----------



## neal41

Poor said:


> Forgive me if there is already a thread about this, but I could not find one.
> 
> I am very confused about how the Spanish 'r' is supposed to be pronounced. I've heard that it is nothing like the English 'r' but when I hear a native speaker, I think they sound similar. From what I read online, the Spanish 'r' sounds more like the English 'dd' in ladder. But this confuses me even more because I say the word like "lad-der." I never thought 'dd' sounded any different from a single 'd'. Could anyone explain it any better?


 
It is nothing like the English 'r'.

The Spanish single 'r' is very similar to the 'dd' in 'ladder', the 'd' in 'sader', the 'tt' in 'latter', and the 't' in 'later' in American English (not in British English). This sound is called a tap because the tip of the tongue rises to the top of the mouth, briefly touches or taps the top of the mouth, and then falls back down. Stand in front of a mirror, say 'ladder', and watch your tongue.

The Spanish double 'rr' is called a trill. The tongue goes through this rising and falling movement several times. The number of times may vary.

The website mentioned by languagelearner123 is really good.


----------



## paulrobert

Actually, even in AE the "tt" in "latter" is not always (and for some people never) the same as the"dd" in "ladder" (and so is not a good example here...)


----------



## neal41

paulrobert said:


> Actually, even in AE the "tt" in "latter" is not always (and for some people never) the same as the"dd" in "ladder" (and so is not a good example here...)


 
For me 'ladder' and 'latter' are the same but I agree that for other speakers of AE they may be different.

The ususal notation for phonemes is a symbol surrounded by slashes, e.g., /d/.  The American English part of the University of Iowa website is in terms of phonemes.  One of the examples there for the phoneme /d/ is 'radar'.  The letter 'd' there is not the same as the 'dd' in 'ladder'.  In order for an intervocalic /d/ in AE to be a alveolar tap or flap, the following vowel must be unstressed.  Similarly their example for /t/ is 'attack'.  The website provides no examples of the sound(s) in 'ladder' and 'latter'.

The Spanish part of the website appears to have been done at a different time by someone different and is in terms of sounds/allophones instead of phonemes.  There the 'r' in 'caro' is described under vibrantes.  Its symbol is [ɾ] .

I am not sure what the difference between [d] and [ɾ] is, but it may involve the length of time that the tip of the tongue touches the alveolar ridge.


----------



## Juan Nadie

I am not really sure about this, but I have heard that the Spanish 'r' (trill) is very similar to the Scottish 'r'. If it were true, would it be a good start point?


----------



## Outsider

Here are some previous threads about this issue:

Pronunciation - R vs. RR - Tips for Rolling
pronunciation - RR
pronouncing - tr, gr, cr


----------



## Poor

So the Spanish 'r' sounds like a sloppy English 'd'?  Relating those two letters makes me even more confused.  Pronouncing a Spanish word like "tren" as the English pronunciation "tden" in one fluid syllable seems impossible. The English 'r' can be pronounced continuously by breathing out air. Is the Spanish 'r' the same way, or is it a short pulse (like 't' and 'd') made once when you release the tongue from the alveolar ridge? I don't see how you could mix other consonants with it fluidly if you had to move your tongue from a 't' or 'd' position to a 'r' position.


----------



## Forero

The Spanish single _r_, when not followed by a consonant or at the beginning of a word, is occlusive. It completely blocks the flow of air momentarily, like the _d_ in _odor_.

Spanish _t_ and _d_ are pronounced with the tip of the tongue on the back of the upper teeth, not, as for Spanish _r_ or English _d_, up on the spongy ridge (alveolus) above the back of the teeth.

The pronunciation of _tren_ can be accomplished by pronouncing _tereno_, dropping the _o_, and shortening the first _e_ until it disappears, leaving _tren_.

Spanish _rr_, and _r_ at the beginning of a word or followed by a consonant, involves an almost continuous flow of air, interrupted by a series of very brief taps of the tongue. The tongue "tries" to break the flow of air while the air is being made to flow out with just enough pressure to prevent any but the briefest interruptions.

Some Spanish speakers use different sounds for _r_, and especially for _rr_, but what I have described here is fairly "standard" in the Spanish-speaking world.


----------



## Lang21

I have never been able produce a rolled 'r' sound. I place my tongue up to the alveolar ridge and attempt to make the noise, but it generally comes out as a vibrating 'z' sound. Does anyone have any advice?


----------



## duvija

Keep on trying, but with a relaxed tongue this time...


----------



## DBlomgren

Practice saying "Rrfuffles have rridges" or "rrrring, rrrring." Or for even more fun, prrractice talking like a pirrate. For less fun, imitate a normal Scot who has an alveolar trill. The more you practice, the better you get. Yes, it is a hard sound to learn, and it's usually the last sound that Spanish-speaking children master. It takes them about five years. I'm sure it will take you less.


----------



## totalbobbins

If you are British, try putting on a generic American accent and saying "butter" and "ladder" over and over again gradually getting faster. Eventually you'll basically just be trilling.


----------



## teacherallison

As a linguist, I can give you a few tips on the trilled "r."  The drills mentioned above and tips are excellent. However, I think you might benefit from using a mirror to see where your lips and teeth and tongue are placed when you attempt to trill the "r." While observing a native speaker trilling the "r," focus on the position of the lips, the tongue and teeth as much as you can without being awkward. I always tell my students to touch the rough part of the roof of their mouth right behind the teeth (alveolar ridge)  with their tongue, open the mouth leaving a small gap between the teeth and exhale while making a  vibrating "ra" sound.  Online diagrams and  phonetic flash animations on several university websites have been especially useful over the years.


----------



## Sallyb36

Pablochopper said:


> "Laugh" can be pronounced in two ways: "*laf*" or "*larf*" with a long "a" which is typical of British English.



larf is southern British English, laf is Northern British English


----------



## Adelaida Estero

Listen to as much Spanish as possible (songs are always useful and enjoyable). Spanish-spoken people, like myself, won't let me lie: for a child takes several years to achieve the goal of properly rolling the rr, so take it easy. When I was a child it was a common practice among young students to put a pencil in the mouth and then trying to produce the sound. When  you remove the pencil it comes easier for some reason. And I'll give you a piece of advise, If that is all right with you: just don´t over do it: sounds awful. In time you will notice the difference between rr. It is not the same sound if it goes at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of a word. Some examples:

Los ca*rr*os (strong sound) son ca*r*os (weak sound).
Pe*r*o (weak) sus pe*rr*os (strong) son más lindos.
El calo*r* (weak) es un ho*rr*o*r* (strong and weak), si lo*r*ecue*r*das (strong and weak).

Good luck!


----------



## Cenzontle

Some beginners may feel that referring to tongue-twisters like "Erre con erre cigarro..." 
is like telling someone who wants to learn to do the high jump "Here's a fence: jump over it."

The late Lincoln Canfield, author of _Spanish Pronunciation in the Americas_, used to recommend his English-speaking students to say
"See this book over here?  Put it over there!"—with a strong puff of air from the _P_, and fast pronunciation of the (_American_ English) tongue flaps of the two _t_'s of "put it".
(Much easier to demonstrate than to explain in writing.)  The result was supposed to be the tongue-tip trill of Spanish /rr/.

I know a person who learned how to roll her R's by finding a recording of a song with the sound repeated in it, and singing along while wearing earphones, so as not to hear her own voice.  This gave her two degrees of protection from the embarrassment of making a strange sound: one, singing instead of speaking, and two, not hearing herself.  It worked!  It's partly a mental/emotional question of losing inhibitions.

Back to Canfield's puff of air:  The tongue tip has to flutter in the breeze.  This means the amount of air flow is greater for /rr/ than for most other sounds.  To get a feel for how much air to blow, try (in the privacy of your home ) saying that flappy-lipped expression "Brr!" as in "Brrr, its cold!"


----------



## duvija

I used the technique of splitting my students into two groups, and tell them to yell at each other in Spanish (I didn't even need to tell them to use 'rr', because it came automatically). The result, oh, well, some could, some couldn't, but at least, we had fun. My own kids are not too great at that either. The English [r] keeps on creeping up/out.


----------



## Adelaida Estero

When producing the sound, if you are a beginner, be aware of the position of the tip of your tongue inside your mouth. In English rr are produced in the back of the palate. In Spanish the sound is produced just behind the front teeth. Try to purr like a cat. Prrr...Yeah, something like that. I recall having heard the "Spanish rr" in some theather actors in Shakespeare's plays (or the like) in an old fashioned style...Laurence Olivier maybe...


----------



## Gabriel

I think that the first step to do the rr is to be able to do the r. I'd say that mastering the r is not enough, but necesary to master the rr.

And the good news is... English speakers DO master the Spanish sound of the r (and some times they don't even realize).

The Beatels can help:

"Let it be, let it be, let it be, oh, let it be" (they don't pronounce the T with its typical sound like in "cat", but with a Spanish R like in "caro")

Also in their song Hey Jude:

So let it out and let it in... (it sounds like "leriraut" and "leririn", if only these words existed in Spanish)


----------



## misterray

Arrius said:


> There is a condition of the mouth in which people are said (literally) to be tongue-tied: the ligament beneath the tongue is attached to so much of the underside ot the tongue that it is impossible to trill an R. A fellow student of mine who took Swedish as a subsidiary subject was hampered in this way for this reason. My own son too, I was unable to get to pronounce the initial Spanish R or the intermediate RR (as a toddler he even had trouble with the English one-tap R and used to talk of "cwossing the woad"). This condition (curable by a minor operation) does not affect the enunciation of either the standard English or American Rs, but if you are a Scot, you are in trouble:it will be excrrrewciatingly embarrrassing!


Thank you for noting this Arrius! I was told by my dentist as a child that I have this condition... I was even offered the operation to fix it because for some people it can impede the ability to pronounce the English/American R's and other letters as well. However I am able to pronounce my all my American letters just fine, so I never had it done. I've always suspected this was the reason I have trouble with the Spanish RR, but I've never really had any confirmation, or even heard of anyone else who had the same issue.

I've been speaking Spanish for a number of years and even lived in Spain for a little under a year and still can't pronounce my RRs. Only recently did I realize that I can make something resembling a trill when I pronounce the sound "tr" but I can only get one or two trills, can't keep it going any longer (i.e. as to make the motor sound), and I certainly can't replicate it in any other situation. I honestly don't know if I'll ever figure it out through practice (and without getting a tongue operation!). I'm hoping that maybe since I was able to learn my native language just fine despite my tongue, it's still possible I could learn the RR eventually (... maybe my discovery with "tr" means I'm on the right track?), but I'm still not 100% convinced that I am or ever will be physically able to roll my RRs.


----------

