# BCS: vidiš da mi sestri nije dobro?



## sesperxes

Hello Foreros,

in a recent Serbian film I’ve seen (Sestre, 2011), one of the sisters shouts to another girl: “vidiš da mi sestri nije dobro?”. (actually, her sister was blind drunk and filled up with pills, and I guess that she intended to say "my sister is ill" ).

I would say “vidiš da mi sestra nije dobro”, following the pattern of sentences with possessive dative like “žena mi je strpljva=moja žena je strpljva” or “Gde ti je kuća? = Gde je tvoja kuća?”.

Am I wrong?

Thanks


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## VelikiMag

I would say that those two expressions carry different meanings.

_Sestri mi nije dobro_ - at the moment my sister doesn't feel good for some reason (she's drunk, has a headache, feels sick, etc.)

_Sestra mi nije dobro_ - this usually means that she has some condition or illness, and/or her medical diagnosis isn't good.

But it probably wouldn't be a big mistake to use one expression instead of another. You just need some context to explain the whole situation better.


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## Duya

Generally, adverbs _dobro_ and _loše_ have dual expressions, with slightly different meanings.

_Dobro mi je : Dobro sam
Loše mi je : Loše sam_

The first ones, with dative, have the following meanings: a) physical health, but with a connotation of temporariness: 'I feel good/I feel sick' b) General well/ill being (without particular reference to health): _Dobro mi je u životu_ 'I'm doing well'; _Loše mi je kad pomislim na posao_ 'I get sick when I think about the job.'

The second ones refer to physical health and/or general mood, as a permanent or temporary state. 

They overlap when they refer to an immediate physical condition: so, one may ask you either _Jesi li dobro?_ or _Je li ti dobro?_ 'Are you feeling well?', to which you'd reply either _Dobro sam_ or _Dobro mi je_.


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## Vanja

Why do I always see thing differently? 

vidiš da mi sestra nije dobro  = vidiš da moja *sestra* nije dobro
vidiš da mi sestri nije dobro (twisted meaning, merges her sister and her into one) = vidiš da mojoj sestri nije dobro - vidiš da *meni* sestra nije dobro


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## sesperxes

Vanja said:


> Why do I always see thing differently?
> 
> vidiš da mi sestra nije dobro  = vidiš da moja *sestra* nije dobro
> vidiš da mi sestri nije dobro (twisted meaning, merges her sister and her into one) = vidiš da mojoj sestri nije dobro - vidiš da *meni* sestra nije dobro





If instead of neutral adjectives dobro/loše, I use the possessive construction with whatever masculine/femine adjective, are both expressions valid?


Sin mi je miran  =  Moj sin je miran (My son is quiet)
Sinu mi je miran=  Meni sin je miran (To me/for me my son is quiet???)


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## Duya

Vanja said:


> Why do I always see thing differently?
> 
> vidiš da mi sestra nije dobro  = vidiš da moja *sestra* nije dobro
> vidiš da mi sestri nije dobro (twisted meaning, merges her sister and her into one) = vidiš da mojoj sestri nije dobro - vidiš da *meni* sestra nije



And how do you explain _Vidiš da mami nije dobro_ vs. _Vidiš da mama nije dobro_? Both are grammatical. Possessive dative _mi_ is a red herring here.



> If instead of neutral adjectives dobro/loše, I use the possessive construction with whatever masculine/femine adjective, are both expressions valid?
> 
> Sin mi je miran = Moj sin je miran (My son is quiet)
> Sinu mi je miran= Meni sin je miran (To me/for me my son is quiet???)



No. As far as I can tell, only _dobro_ and _loše_ (and their comparatives) behave in this dual way. Other adverbs take one form or another (e.g. _Teško mi je_ but not *_Teško sam_.)


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## VelikiMag

sesperxes said:


> If instead of neutral adjectives dobro/loše, I use the possessive construction with whatever masculine/femine adjective, are both expressions valid?


No. You must use neuter form and not every adjective makes sense.



sesperxes said:


> Sin mi je miran  =  Moj sin je miran (My son is quiet)
> Sinu mi je miran=  Meni sin je miran (To me/for me my son is quiet???)=Mojem sinu je miran... (My son has...)


_Sinu mi je miran_ is not a complete sentence. Adjective _miran_ here refers to something that follows it. For example: _Sinu mi je miran san - My son has calm sleep._


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## Duya

To clarify: _dobro_ and _loše_ are adverbs here, not neuter adjectives. That is just the way how this class of adverbs is formed: they have the same form as neuter adjectives. Just as you can't attach English suffix -ly to any adjective, you cannot form an adverb from any BCS adjective.


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## Vanja

Duya, kuliraj! 

Veliki Mag meant - _Meni je dobro_, not_ meni je dobar_, that neuter adjetive. _Meni je to lepo, Meni je lepo, Meni je drago_... other examples. "Meni je Nešto nešto."
That mistake made our Spanish pupil. 

Sinu mi je miran (šta?) san. = Mom sinu je miran san.

Moj sin ima lepo lice.
Mom sinu je lepo lice. Sinu (mi) je lepo lice. 



> And how do you explain Vidiš da mami nije dobro vs. Vidiš da mama nije dobro? Both are grammatical. Possessive dative mi is a red herring here.



And what an explanation should clarify? That mi is unnecessary and/or confusing? It's not a red herring. I think mi is one very important spice of our language for expressing emotional connotation of a conversation. It gives taste, and can shift the meaning at times. 

_Vidiš da mami nije dobro, pustimo je na miru.
Vidiš da mi majci nije dobro! Otkači se bre! _(= kao da kaže_ nije ni meni, nečem mom/meni mije dobro) Pusti nas na miru!_


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## sesperxes

The "Spanish pupil"  thinks that dative possessive is a dangerous matter, even for native speakers! 

Let's go on with doubts: may we build copulative sentences  in past and future with dative possessive? I mean, if we say "čorba mi je topla", may I say "juče u menzi čorba mi je bila topla" and "hajmo marš, čorba ti će biti topla!"?


Hvala na Vašoj strpljivosti!


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## sesperxes

The "Spanish pupil" thinks that dative possessive is a dangerous matter, even for native speakers! 

Let's go on with doubts.

First one: may we build copulative sentences in past and future with dative possessive? I mean, if we say "čorba mi je topla", may I say "juče u menzi čorba mi je bila topla" and "hajmo, čorba ti će biti topla!"?

Second one: maybe it's obvious for you but for me isn't so. This construction is valid only in copulative sentences, isn't it? I mean, I can say "brat mi je mehaničar (biti+name), brat mi je posnad (biti+adjective), brat mi je u Grčkoj, u braku,  na tašte od jučer, iza ugla, itd.  (biti+preposition), BUT I cannot say "brat mi igra fudbal svakog subota" (with the sense of "my brother plays soccer every Saturday - and not "brother plays to me soccer"-) or "brat mi kaže da padaće kiša" (my brother says that's going to rain - and not "brother says to me that..."-). Is it so?

I promise to stop asking about possessive dative, hvala na Vašoj strpljivosti!


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## VelikiMag

This is definitely a tricky one, even for natives.

_Brat mi igra fudbal svake subote_ means only "My brother plays football every Saturday", because the other meaning is impossible.

But if you said: _Brat mi čisti dvorište svake subote_ - then it can mean both "My brother cleans my yard every Saturday" and "My brother cleans (presumably his own) yard every Saturday".

Now your question will probably be how do we know which is "the proper" meaning. The answer is we don't know. We can only assume that 'the first' meaning is the correct one, because for 'the second' case it should be _moj brat_ instead of _brat mi_ to avoid ambiguity. Or you can simply add a possessive pronoun before _dvorište_.

The same goes for: _Brat mi kaže da će padati kiša_. My personal feeling is that in such sentences where exact meaning is not clear, _mi_ has a tendency to mean _meni_ rather than _moj_.


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## Duya

I'll try to forge an answer, but it's indeed tricky.

Generally, possessive dative is applicable in all tenses and for all sentence constituents, but there are limitations. 

Don't forget the rule "clitics second", which forces the possessive clitic (e.g. _ti_)  to come into second place in the sentence (within the group of clitics). We then determine its meaning (of course, subconsciously) on the following rules:

1) If the verb accepts an argument (recipient) in dative, that's it:
_Vanja ti je poslala kutiju._ (she sent it to you; it doesn't mean the box or Vanja are yours, i.e. It isn't possessive).

2) Otherwise, it modifies the direct object, if present:
_Vanja ti je našla kutiju._ (=Vanja found *your* box)

3) Otherwise, it modifies the subject:
_Vanja ti je otišla._ (=*Your* [friend] Vanja has gone.)

I'll address your examples in the next post...


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## Duya

sesperxes said:


> First one: may we build copulative sentences in past and future with dative possessive? I mean, if we say "čorba mi je topla", may I say "juče u menzi čorba mi je bila topla" and "hajmo, čorba ti će biti topla!"?



Yes, all are fine.



sesperxes said:


> Second one: maybe it's obvious for you but for me isn't so. This construction is valid only in copulative sentences, isn't it? I mean, I can say "brat mi je mehaničar (biti+name), brat mi je poznat (biti+adjective), brat mi je u Grčkoj, u braku,  na tašte od jučer, iza ugla, itd.  (biti+preposition),



Yes.



sesperxes said:


> BUT I cannot say "brat mi igra fudbal svake subote" (with the sense of "my brother plays soccer every Saturday - and not "brother plays to me soccer"-) or



Oh yes you can.



sesperxes said:


> "brat mi kaže da će padati kiša" (my brother says that's going to rain - and not "brother says to me that..."-). Is it so?



That's my case 1) above, so it means the latter indeed.



sesperxes said:


> I promise to stop asking about possessive dative, hvala na Vašoj strpljivosti!


 
C'mon continue, it's just became interesting!


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## sesperxes

OK, let's break promises! 

Following the example of "brat mi igra fudbal svake subote" , let's imagine this situation: I have an (ideal) wife that cooks her specialty to me every Thursday. How do I express that?

.  If I say "žena mi priprema paprikaš utorkom", it means that "my wife cooks paprikaš every Thursday", but maybe at home, maybe at her sister's, maybe in the restaurant where she works. 

· But I want to say that she's so kind that prepares FOR ME that dish. Must I say something like "meni žena mi priprema...", "žena mi priprema za mene..." or just "moja žena priprema za mene paprikaš svaki utorak"?


 Once again, thanks!


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## Duya

In case 1, _igrati_ does not take an indirect object in dative (at least not in the 'play' meaning): there's no such thing as *_igrati mi_, so "Brat mi igra" is interpreted as "My brother plays".

In case 2, _pripremati_ does take an indirect object in dative (to prepare/cook. *for* smb.) so "Žena mi priprema" is interpreted as "Wife cooks for/to me." Of course, that still means 'my wife', since it's not stressed otherwise: "*Tvoja* žena mi priprema". If you really must stress that it's your wife, you would thus say "*Moja* žena mi priprema."

Anticipating the next question : no, you cannot mix two dative clitics in the same sentence: *"Žena ti mi priprema ručak." But I suppose you can mix clitics and non-clitics: "Žena ti priprema Muji ručak", though it sounds a bit odd: one would rather say "Tvoja žena priprema Muji ručak."

Possessive dative clitics are never mandatory, but they sound natural and informal; you may use possessive pronouns instead, at the risk of sounding stilted... Or like a foreigner.


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## VelikiMag

Sesperxes, don't forget that in every situation there is a context based on which you can determine the meaning of something that otherwise seems unclear. Take a look at these examples:

_Ja obožavam paprikaš i žena mi ga priprema svakog utorka._ This means that your wife prepares the stew especially for you, because you like it. It may as well be a pure coincidence that you like it and that she prepares it so often, but you will agree that this is less likely.

_Žena mi priprema paprikaš svakog utorka, a ja ga baš i ne volim._ Although theoretically possible that she prepares it for you, it is most likely that she prepares it for herself. Or there is some other reason why she prepares it, say, your kids like it.

As you can see, we can interpret things in many different ways. And if we analyze sentences isolated from their context, there can always be different opinions.


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## sesperxes

Velika hvala Svima!


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