# يا علي مدد



## Atlantia

Thanks for the help in my previous attempt at this thread.
I have made sure to host the picture 'right side up' this time. 

Dear all,

This is part of a blade posted on another forum. I know the calligraphy is a little rough, but I am hoping to try and see if it can be translated for the owner.
For context the blade is an antique sword which has a distinctly Afghan style hilt and a blade that is in the style of a Persian blade but might not be.
I believe that I can see 'Amal': .عمل in the cartouche, but that's all I can make out.
A good first step would of course be to identify the Language. Can anyone tell if this is Arabic, or could it be Persian or even Pashto or Afghan-Persian??
If anyone can help I'd be grateful. As will the swords owner 'Eric' who I will direct here and may drop in to add his thoughts.


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## Treaty

The motif says یا علی مدد (Oh, Ali! Support [me]!). I can't recognise a Persian word (apart from possible اندر) in the line. The square text seems like 1988 but I'm probably misreading it.


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## colognial

نصر من الله و فتح قریب؟
I'm not sure this is what has been carved into the scimitar, but if it is, then we are looking at a verse from the Holy Book. The meaning of the verse I shall have to leave to experts to reveal.

I agree with Treaty above: The cartouche contains an invocation to Hazrate Ali, a saint, who is THE iconic figure among Shiite muslims.


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## fdb

colognial said:


> نصر من الله و فتح قریب



Yes exactly. It is from the Qur'an 61:13. Arabic, of course.


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## truce

Yes. With a strong probability it is:
نصر من الله و فتح قریب

This is from Quran - surat 61: Assaf (الصف) - ayat 13 and the language is Arabic.

Which in Persian it means:
نصرت و یاری خدا (در جنگ) و فتح (سپاه اسلام) نزدیک است.

And in English it means:
Victory is from Allah (God) and conquest is imminent.


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## estcrh

Thanks for all replies. Atlantia posted the swords inscription for me as I was unaware of this forum. I have been collecting images of this particular blade type wich seems to have been used primarily in Afghan swords, knowledge of the inscriptions may eventually be helpful in identifying who made and used these blades and the region of manufacture.


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## colognial

estcrh, I'm afraid I don't know much about swords or military relics of any kind. All I can say with some certainty is that the inscription inside the cartouche betrays familiarity with Iranian language and tradition. For as far as I can tell, the expression depicted is used exclusively by Iranians; only Iranians - both ordinary ones and those following certain mystic sects - maintain enough loyalty and devotion towards Ali, the first Shiite Imam and a confidante of the Prophet of Islam, to call on him to assist them in their sword-wielding or other undertakings. As for the number showing on the blade, 1968 is a possibility. But then, if this is the year of manufacture, why show the date in a 'foreign' calendar? I guess this could be a  hybrid sword, one perhaps designed to run a dialogue among diverse cultures!


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## tarkshya

The sword is most certainly Afghan origin. It's called Pulwar. Pulwar - Wikipedia


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## colognial

The weapon appears to be an Afghan pulwar alright. It's baffling. Is it perhaps antique, anyone?


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## fdb

colognial said:


> the expression depicted is used exclusively by Iranians; only Iranians - both ordinary ones and those following certain mystic sects - maintain enough loyalty and devotion towards Ali, the first Shiite Imam and a confidante of the Prophet of Islam, to call on him to assist them in their sword-wielding or other undertakings!



There are Shi'ites in other countries too.


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## colognial

Shi'ites in other countries?? I'm flabbergasted! Yes, but do they all come up with "Yaa Ali Madad" the same as we do? This is highly relevant, I should think.


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## fdb

Yes, it is used by twelver Shi'ites in Iraq, by Nizari Ismailis, etc. etc.


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## Dib

And from the Indian pop-media. One very popular Bollywood movie song also references this - "yaa Ali, reham Ali", etc.

I had previously posted a video link, but removed it when remembered the video ban on the forum.


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## tarkshya

I would caution against reading too much into the overtly Shi'ite slogan in the inscription. Invocation to Ali was common in even the Sunni states of medieval world. For example, Ottoman flags frequently displayed Zulfiqar, the famous sword of Ali, along with inscriptions praising him.

The sword in picture could well belong to any Islamic culture, and not necessarily a Shia one.

What I am interested in is the deciphering of 4 numbers in four squares. What order these numbers are to be read in? (bottom left, bottom right, top left, top right?).


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## colognial

I'd go from top left-hand corner to the right, then from bottom left-hand corner to bottom right. 1 to 9 to 6 to 8. I think it is probably the date of manufacture of the pulwar.


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## PersoLatin

The style of /i/ used in Ali (علي) i.e. ي, makes it doubtful that this is Iranian, but that much has already been established. Do the Afghans use the Arabic ي or its Persian variation?



tarkshya said:


> What I am interested in is the deciphering of 4 numbers in four squares. What order these numbers are to be read in? (bottom left, bottom right, top left, top right?).


Could this be a combination of the sword maker's initials and a date?


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## Atlantia

Hi PersoLatin

Love your avatar!

The little square with four numbers is a 'device' that we occasionally see on Persian blades and copies of them.
They are usually described as 'Lucky' or 'Magic' squares.
They are sometimes refered to as 'Bedu', 'Beduh', 'Baudah'.
Dates are usually placed in the Cartouche.


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## fdb

PersoLatin said:


> The style of /i/ used in Ali (علي) i.e. ي, makes it doubtful that this is Iranian,



There are arbitrary dots and indentations all over the field with the words يا على مدد . I doubt whether any of them are intentional diacritics.


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## PersoLatin

Thanks Atlantia.



Atlantia said:


> The little square with four numbers is a 'device' that we occasionally see on Persian blades and copies of them.
> They are usually described as 'Lucky' or 'Magic' squares.


Do you know which part represents luck or magic, the main square & the ones inside? And what role do the characters/letters play, in that?



Atlantia said:


> They are sometimes refered to as 'Bedu', 'Beduh', 'Baudah'.


Is Bedu Persian by any chance? I can't find anything on it.


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## estcrh

colognial said:


> The weapon appears to be an Afghan pulwar alright. It's baffling. Is it perhaps antique, anyone?


Sorry for the late reply, it is an Afghan pulwar, the hilt is an identifying characteristic, it is antique, from the 1800s I believe. The blade type is not very common but there are a few known examples. It may be imitating a Persian blade or it was made by someone with knowledge of Persian blades perhaps. Sometimes when a blade is copied from another culture the text is also copied but not always accurately, just mimicing what the blade maker has seen on other blades. Knowing if the text makes sense and is properly written may eventually be helpful in identifying were this particular blade type was made.


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## Qureshpor

colognial said:


> Shi'ites in other countries?? I'm flabbergasted! Yes, but do they all come up with "Yaa Ali Madad" the same as we do? This is highly relevant, I should think.


Two points. 
نصر من الله و فتح قریب is often found in Sunni households.
Secondly, there are millions of Shias in countries other than Iran (India and Pakistan to name just two countries) and "yaa Ali madad!" is NOT restricted to Shias!


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## Ihsiin

fdb said:


> Yes, it is used by twelver Shi'ites in Iraq



No it's not, not by Iraqis, anyway.



Qureshpor said:


> نصر من الله و فتح قریب is often found in Sunni households.



Of course, it's from the Qur'an


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