# until now / so far



## ngoctam1011

From many people, I’ve seen a very common confusion of "until now" and "so far"

For example, we write

“The issue x is not reproducible until now.”  Or “The issue x has not been reproducible until now.”
-  you means:  X did not occur before now, and x is not occurring now.
However, the statements above really mean the opposite:  X did not occur before now, but x is occurring now.

On the other hand, if we say

“The issue x is not reproducible so far.”  Or “The issue x has not been reproducible so far.”
-  Then this means:  X did not occur before now, and x is not occurring now.

For example, we write

“The issue x is not reproducible until now.”  Or “The issue x has not been reproducible until now.”
-  you means:  X did not occur before now, and x is not occurring now.
However, the statements above really mean the opposite:  X did not occur before now, but x is occurring now.

On the other hand, if we say

“The issue x is not reproducible so far.”  Or “The issue x has not been reproducible so far.”
-  Then this means:  X did not occur before now, and x is not occurring now.

Aint I right?


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## Thomas Tompion

ngoctam1011 said:


> From many people, I’ve seen a very common confusion of "until now" and "so far"
> 
> For example, we write
> 
> “The issue x is not reproducible until now.”  (_I couldn't say this_) Or “The issue x has not been reproducible until now.” (_This means that it is reproducible now, but wasn't previously_)
> -  you means:  X did not occur before now, and x is not occurring now.
> However, the statements above really mean the opposite:  X did not occur before now, but x is occurring now.
> 
> On the other hand, if we say
> 
> “The issue x is not reproducible so far.” (_I couldn't say this_)  Or “The issue x has not been reproducible so far.” _(it's still not reproducible_)
> -  Then this means:  X did not occur before now, and x is not occurring now.
> 
> For example, we write
> 
> “The issue x is not reproducible until now.”  Or “The issue x has not been reproducible until now.” (_Isn't this the same as the first example?_)
> -  you means:  X did not occur before now, and x is not occurring now.
> However, the statements above really mean the opposite:  X did not occur before now, but x is occurring now.
> 
> On the other hand, if we say
> 
> “The issue x is not reproducible so far.”  Or “The issue x has not been reproducible so far.” (_Isn't this the same as the second example?_)
> -  Then this means:  X did not occur before now, and x is not occurring now.
> 
> For example, we write
> 
> “The issue x is not reproducible until now.”  Or “The issue x has not been reproducible until now.” -  Then this means:  X did not occur before now, and x is not occurring now.
> 
> Aint I right?


It's hard to be sure, but I think not, for the reasons I've tried to give.

If you'd keep your question a little shorter, it would be easier to give you a clear answer.


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## nktvnvn

Hi everyone,

Let me shorten the question, as it seems like the one I want to ask too.

I see "until" in constructions like this:

_I can't leave *until *8 pm._

I'm pretty sure the above means "I can't leave right now, but I can when it's 8 pm."

But "until now" is so confusing to me. When we say,

_*Until now*, I haven't found a house._
OR _I haven't found a house *until now*._

What exactly does that mean?

_a. I haven't found a house and still haven't, up to this point._
_b. I haven't found a house recently, but now I have._ (seems consistent with the "until 8pm" example)

Will it make a difference if we say,
_
*So far*, I haven't found a house. ?_

A detailed reply would be appreciated.


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## Parla

Welcome to the forum, Ngoctam. 
You seem to have repeated your questions twice in your post, so it's a little hard to follow, but I believe your understanding is correct. But "Aint I right?" is _wrong_; you should ask: *Am I right?*


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## DonnyB

ntkvnvn said:
			
		

> Will it make a difference if we say,
> *So far*, I haven't found a house. ?


Yes: "_*Until now*, I haven't found a house." _OR "_I haven't found a house *until now*."_  are both similar to the _until 8pm _example and mean that you've now found a house but the inference is that you'd been looking for some time.

_*"So far*, I haven't found a house."_ alters the meaning: the infererence is still that you'd been looking for some time, but in this case you *haven't* (yet) found one.


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## nktvnvn

Thanks DonnyB. Confusingly, this is what the dictionaries tell me:

1. Cambridge:


2. Longman:


3. Macmillan:


4. Oxford:



5. Merriam-Webster:


The above are from learner's dictionaries. Interestingly enough, the "non-learner" version of Merriam-Webster says *so far* means: _up to the present <has written just one novel _so far_>, _and American Heritage 5th Edition says it means: *1. Up to the present moment: So far there's been no word from them.
*
This is really confusing to English learners.


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## Cagey

> Thanks DonnyB. Confusingly, this is what the dictionaries tell me:
> [....]


Please include the definitions in the post itself, so people don't have to click through to respond.   
(See Posting links.)


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## nktvnvn

Sorry Cagey. The images were shown inline in the editor, but they became links after the post was published. Do you have any tips for me? Thanks!


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## Cagey

The English Only forum is set not to allow images.  You'll have to copy the text into the post, I'm afraid.   If you don't want to copy so many, you could pick out two that demonstrate your point and summarize the rest.  Say they all say "this" or "that."


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## Smauler

nktvnvn said:


> _I can't leave *until *8 pm._



You're right, it does mean "I can't leave right now, but I can when it's 8 pm"



nktvnvn said:


> _*Until now*, I haven't found a house._
> OR _I haven't found a house *until now*._



I don't know what those sentences mean, really.  No one would use them like that in English.

What people might say is "Until now, I hadn't found a house", or "I hadn't found a house until now" if they had found one.


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## HighlyAcidic

The only context in which I can imagine using the phrase *until now* is if something has literally _just_ happened: "Oh, wow, I hadn't found any houses I liked until now!" (said just after turning a corner and seeing a beautiful house).

If you're trying to say "I have been looking for a house, and I have not found one, and I am continuing to look" then you want "I haven't found a house *yet*."


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## nktvnvn

Hi Smauler,

Thanks. But Oxford gives this example at *until*: "_Until now I *have* always *lived *alone._", so the present perfect is used, not past perfect and I think the former is more correct because it's used to describe something that has happened "before now" whereas the other "before then".


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## Smauler

Hi nktvnvn,

I'm not certain where you found your example, but I would never use the present perfect there.  "Until now I had always lived alone".

"Until now" implies a change in status.  If you say "Until now I've been doing something I still am doing" it does not make sense.  "Until now I have always lived alone" really does not say anything.


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## Thomas Tompion

nktvnvn said:


> Hi Smauler,
> 
> Thanks. But Oxford gives this example at *until*: "_Until now I *have* always *lived *alone._", so the present perfect is used, not past perfect and I think the former is more correct because it's used to describe something that has happened "before now" whereas the other "before then".


That example is standard.  The suggestion is that you have always  up to now  lived alone but now have someone living with you.

If you didn't wish to suggest that things had changed very recently you would say 'I have always lived alone'.


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## nktvnvn

Hi Smauler,

Things are getting more and more frustrating. The "until now" example is from this dictionary, at *until*: http://oald8.com. I've checked MacMillan Dictionary too and got _Up until now, everything in Katherine's life *has* *been* taken care of for her._And then this discussion.

I'm going crazy.


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## Smauler

What I mean is that if you are in the process of moving, "Until now I have always lived alone" may make sense.  It can work, until you get there.

"Until now, I lived in England" means nothing, except exactly when you crossed the border...  "Until now, I had lived in England" means that your current life is in another country, and you used to live in England.


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## ALEX1981X

Smauler said:


> What I mean is that if you are in the process of moving, "Until now I have always lived alone" may make sense.  It can work, until you get there.
> 
> "Until now, I lived in England" means nothing, except exactly when you crossed the border...  "Until now, I had lived in England" means that your current life is in another country, and you used to live in England.



I think that the meaning of "until *now*" in _"Until now, I *had lived *in England"_ is something along the lines of " until some hours/days/weeks *ago*", because the time reference is definetely past, at least to me; thus the change in your life has definetely happened

Do you agree?


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## DonnyB

ALEX1981X said:


> I think that the meaning of "until *now*" in _"Until now, I *had lived *in England"_ is something along the lines of " until some hours/days/weeks *ago*", because the time reference is definetely past, at least to me; thus the change in your life has definetely happened
> 
> Do you agree?


Sorry, no.  To convey that meaning, you would have to say _"Until _*then*_, I *had lived *in England".  _"*Then*" refers to a period of time_ some hours/days/weeks ago (in the past),_ whereas "*now*" means_ at the present time _and is not compatible with a verb in the pluperfect tense.


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## Smauler

No...  "I could not see until now what was happening before my eyes".  "Until now" is not locked in a certain tense.


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## Thomas Tompion

nktvnvn said:


> Hi Smauler,
> 
> Things are getting more and more frustrating. The "until now" example is from this dictionary, at *until*: http://oald8.com. I've checked MacMillan Dictionary too and got _Up until now, everything in Katherine's life *has* *been* taken care of for her._And then this discussion.
> 
> I'm going crazy.


There's no need to go crazy.  Your dictionary's advice seems to be sound - as was Cagey's instruction to type out the examples rather than leaving us to click the links.

The present perfect with _until now_ is entirely normal.  The past perfect with until now is unusual and dangerous grammatically - I could only find one example of it in the BNC, the BE corpus.

_'Until now I have always lived alone' _means that you have not had in the past people living with you, but that now someone is living with you.
_
'Until now I had always lived alone_' is a grammatical mess between _'Until then I had always lived alone_' and _'Until now I have always lived alone'.
_
There are native speakers who make grammatical messes, of course.


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## ALEX1981X

Smauler said:


> No...  "I could not see until now what was happening before my eyes".  "Until now" is not locked in a certain tense.



So what's the crucial difference between:

_Until now, I *had lived *in England
__Until now, I *have lived *in England

_I don't see a logic pattern


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## Thomas Tompion

ALEX1981X said:


> So what's the crucial difference between:
> 
> _Until now, I *had lived *in England
> __Until now, I *have lived *in England_


The crucial difference is that the first is a boshed attempt at saying the second.


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## nktvnvn

Thanks Thomas!

Did you check out (click) the screenshots of the definitions in one of my posts above (Post #6)? What would you say to the fact that more than one dictionary equates "until now" with "so far"?


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## Thomas Tompion

nktvnvn said:


> Thanks Thomas!
> 
> Did you check out (click) the screenshots of the definitions in one of my posts above (Post #6)? No, I don't click links much here.
> 
> What would you say to the fact that more than one dictionary equates "until now" with "so far"? I'd say that it would need a bit of further explanation.


 These  things are often complicated and dictionaries haven't the space to give  full explanations.  That's where the grammar books and the forum can be  useful.


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## Smauler

Thomas Tompion said:


> _'Until now I have always lived alone' _means that you have not had in the past people living with you, but that now someone is living with you.



That sentence means you're on the threshold of living with someone.  It does absolutely _not_ mean that you have been living with someone for 50 years.  "Until now I had always lived alone" does.


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## Smauler

I'd lived in England, Scotland and Wales, but until now I'd never lived in Ireland.


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## Thomas Tompion

Smauler said:


> That sentence means you're on the threshold of living with someone.  It does absolutely _not_ mean that you have been living with someone for 50 years.  "Until now I had always lived alone" does.


I'd take issue with you particularly about the second point here:

*Until now I had always lived alone* seems to me to be unidiomatic outside the context of the historic present.  One needs *now* to mean *then* to make it work, and that happens when one is writing in the historic present.


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## Thomas Tompion

Smauler said:


> I'd lived in England, Scotland and Wales, but until now I'd never lived in Ireland.


If you wanted that to mean that you still aren't living in Ireland and have no plans to do so, I'd say *...but so far I've never lived in Ireland.
*
If you want it to mean that you are now just starting living in Ireland, then I'd be happy with your sentence.

PS.  Please note that I've changed my mind about this.  Sorry!  I'm not erasing it because later posts quote it.


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## Smauler

Thomas Tompion said:


> If you want it to mean that you are now just starting living in Ireland, then I'd be happy with your sentence.



Good...  because the end of the sentence is "Until now I had never lived in Ireland", which was the meaning I was trying to get across.

I thought you were claiming it should be "Until now I have never lived in Ireland".


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## PaulQ

*Until now*_, I haven't found a house._ OR _I haven't found a house *until now*._

_*Until now* = up to, but not including, the time at which I am speaking._

_One o’clock -> I am looking for a house but I have not found a house._
_Two o’clock -> I am looking for a house but I have not found a house._
_Three o’clock -> I am looking for a house but I have not found a house._
_Four o’clock -> I find a house._
_One second past four o’clock -> “I have not found a house until now.”_
_Five o’clock -> I *found *a house at four o’clock. I *had *not found a house until *then/four o’clock*_.


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## nktvnvn

Thomas Tompion said:


> These  things are often complicated and dictionaries haven't the space to give  full explanations.  That's where the grammar books and the forum can be  useful.



If that's what dictionary makers really thought, then it would be a very bad excuse. Why do they include notes for some other grammar points, but not this ? I hate learning the wrong information.


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## Smauler

Don't believe me, whatever you do.

Also, bear in mind that your grammar as someone who learns English as a foreign language may be better than that of some native speakers.  Grammar isn't most of a language, though.


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## Thomas Tompion

Smauler said:


> Good...  because the end of the sentence is "Until now I had never lived in Ireland", which was the meaning I was trying to get across.
> 
> I thought you were claiming it should be "Until now I have never lived in Ireland".


Yes, you're right.  How inattentive of me!  I'm not happy with it at all.  I'd need to change that *now* to *then*.


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## Thomas Tompion

nktvnvn said:


> If that's what dictionary makers really thought, then it would be a very bad excuse. Why do they include notes for some other grammar points, but not this ? I hate learning the wrong information.


I've every sympathy with you about that.


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## Forero

"Until now" mentions "now"; "so far" does not. There would be no reason to mention "now" if things were still the same as they have been.

But to me "it has not until now" does not strictly imply that it does now. Logically speaking it does mean "so far it has not."

I would find it perfectly logical to say, for example, "The experiment has not been reproducible until now, but let us try again and see if we can duplicate their results."

Another example (at the place and time of a total solar eclipse): "We have not been able to repeat the test until now because it requires a total solar eclipse, but we have the equipment ready in case we are lucky enough to have a clear day."

Similarly "I can't leave until 8 pm" does not actually say I can leave at 8 pm. For example, it is perfecly logical (to me) to say "I really can't leave until 8 pm. Call me then, and I'll see if I can('t) come with you."

"Until 8 pm" means, essentially, "before 8 pm", but it puts more stress on "8 pm" as a point in time. Context should tell us why the speaker wants to stress that point in time.

So if I say "I can't leave until 8 pm" in the absence of further context, you are free to assume, at little risk, that I can probably leave at 8 pm. But that is not the same as saying that I told you I could leave at 8 pm.


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## Thomas Tompion

I'd think it very odd of someone to say *I can't leave until 8 pm, and I can't leave then either.*

I'd even find it strange for someone to say* I can't leave until 8 pm, and I'm not sure I can leave then either*.  This would be better put, surely, by *I can't leave before 8 pm, and I'm not even sure I can leave then either*.

Consider the difference between these two:
*
He didn't do it until 8 pm* - I'm surprised that someone could argue that this doesn't imply that he did it at 8 pm. 
*
He didn't do it before 8 pm* carries no such suggestion; he may well never have done it at all, for instance.

To examine Forero's two examples:
*
 "The experiment has not been reproducible until now, but let us try again and see if we can duplicate their results."* I'd certainly change the *until now* to *so far*, if I wished to avoid the conclusion that it was not capable of being reproduced now.  Of course we are talking here of an ability; there's nothing to say that the fact that we might be able to reproduce the experiment means that we will successfully reproduce it, and the possibility of failure does not gainsay the possibility of success, which the opening part of the sentence entails, to my BE ear.

So I'd be happy with this sentence, taking the opening to mean that the experiment is now reproducible, which means that *but* should probably become *so*, for what follows is consequent upon what has just been said, rather than in contradistinction to it.
*
 "We have not been able to repeat the test until now because it requires  a total solar eclipse, but we have the equipment ready in case we are  lucky enough to have a clear day."*

I'd be happy with this and would take it to mean that we had today a total eclipse, so we may be able to repeat the test.  Again we are talking about an ability (_have not been able_); the sentence seems to me to be suggesting several necessary conditions (for the test): a total eclipse, the equipment ready, a clear day etc.  For me, during the period we are considering, one of those conditions (the eclipse) has not been met, but is now met: we need to see if the others are met, for us to  repeat the test successfully.

What I would find extremely odd would be a sentence like *"We have not been able to repeat the test until now because it requires a total solar eclipse, and we can't do it now because there's no eclipse for another twelve years"*.


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## PaulQ

Thomas Tompion said:


> I'd think it very odd of someone to say _I can't leave until 8 pm, and I can't leave then either._


I must be home before 8.30 pm and my duty finishes at 8 pm, but the drawbridge is jammed so I can't leave until 8 pm, and I can't leave then either. 



> He didn't do it until 8 pm - I'm surprised that someone could argue that this doesn't imply that he did it at 8 pm.


A: “We know he did the murder, but we don’t know when. We know he was in the pub until 7:50 pm. It’s a 10 minute drive from the pub to here, so whatever time he murdered her, _he didn't do it until 8 pm.” _

When was the murder committed?


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## ALEX1981X

PaulQ said:


> I must be home before 8.30 pm and my duty finishes at 8 pm, but the drawbridge is jammed so I can't leave until 8 pm, and I can't leave then either.
> 
> 
> A: “We know he did the murder, but we don’t know when. We know he was in the pub until 7:50 pm. It’s a 10 minute drive from the pub to here, so whatever time he murdered her, _he didn't do it until 8 pm.” _
> 
> When was the murder committed?



Anytime after 8 pm would be plausible Paul?


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## PaulQ

As I see it, yes. *Until *provides a point at which something changed/will change. "I did not get home until 8 pm." / "...whatever time he murdered her, _he didn't do it until 8 pm.” _/ "Play in the garden until your mother returns."


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## semeeran

All  the above are confusing to me.
This is the context: 
I looked for a house. I couldn't find a house.
Can I say:
1. Until now, I haven't found a house.
2. So far, I haven't found a house. 
Which one is correct?


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## Cagey

semeeran said:


> 2. So far, I haven't found a house.


This one is good.   



semeeran said:


> 1. Until now, I haven't found a house.


I wouldn't use this.


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## Forero

semeeran said:


> All  the above are confusing to me.
> This is the context:
> I looked for a house. I couldn't find a house.
> Can I say:
> 1. Until now, I haven't found a house.
> 2. So far, I haven't found a house.
> Which one is correct?


Both are correct, but sentence 1 needs more context to support it. In particular you need to follow sentence 1 with something like "but now ...".

For example, "Until now, I haven't found a house, but now I am not so sure I care for that neighborhood at all" or "Until now, I haven't found a house, but I just heard about some new construction in the neighborhood."

Sentence 2 is more universally applicable.


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