# Microsoft Grammar



## Nick

Thank goodness for Microsoft Word.


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## EVAVIGIL

Sorry, Nick, I just don't get it!  
I might be going through a phase...
But then again, no-one else has posted a reply...  
Cheers!
EVA.


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## JJchang

"Be" is correct. I think most of the time Microsoft does a good job though.


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## Whodunit

Nick said:
			
		

> Thank goodness for Microsoft Word.



A machine doesn't know everything. You have to ignore such things. I always wondered whether this is correct:

Patrick and me went over the floor. (my suggestion)
OR
Patrick and I went over the floor. (Microsoft's suggestion)


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## gotitadeleche

whodunit said:
			
		

> A machine doesn't know everything. You have to ignore such things. I always wondered whether this is correct:
> 
> Patrick and me went over the floor. (my suggestion)
> OR
> Patrick and I went over the floor. (Microsoft's suggestion)




The second sentence, "Patrick and I went over the floor," is the correct version. The way to know is to take out Patrick (or whoever). You would never say "me went over the floor."


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## EVAVIGIL

I agree with Gotitadeleche, and I find that test quite useful (to take out the first part of the subject).
Thank you!!
EVA.


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## abc

Nick, 

Imperfect beings cannot create perfect things, right?


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## Whodunit

gotitadeleche said:
			
		

> The second sentence, "Patrick and I went over the floor," is the correct version. The way to know is to take out Patrick (or whoever). You would never say "me went over the floor."



Thank you very much. But if I'd say "Patrick and me, we went ..." so that would be the correct one.

And what about this site?


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## gotitadeleche

whodunit said:
			
		

> Thank you very much. But if I'd say "Patrick and me, we went ..." so that would be the correct one.
> 
> And what about this site?




We = you and I, so the correct one is "Patrick and I, we went..." 

I is used for the subject, me is used as an object; e.g.: "He gave it to John and me." "He gave it to us, to John and me."


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## mirandolina

No, it would still be wrong and the site is definitely wrong too. 
It should say "Spot where Patrick and I camped....".
Even native speakers frequently get this wrong.
Then there is the other case, where people say things like "this is a photo of Patrick and I" - obviously the correct form is "this is a photo of Patrick and me".
Again, the test is to remove Patrick!





			
				whodunit said:
			
		

> Thank you very much. But if I'd say "Patrick and me, we went ..." so that would be the correct one.
> 
> And what about this site?


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## te gato

Sorry whodunit;

gotitadeleche and mirandolina are correct...
I = Subject...
Me = object..
and I always comes at the end of a sentence...
Example: "Mary and Joan and I are going to the movies"..(subject) you are the subject...
             "this is a picture of Bob and Me"...(object)..the picture is the object.

te gato


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## lsp

whodunit said:
			
		

> Thank you very much. But if I'd say "Patrick and me, we went ..." so that would be the correct one.
> 
> And what about this site?


Absolutely agree that taking Patrick out will yield the correct result in both examples. As an additional caveat before taking English lessons from random websites, notice that the same  site spelled "where" incorrectly.


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## CubaCelt

Using "me" is considered common. Officially "Patrick and I" is correct. It is aslo a matter of good manners. It is considered impolite to put onself first " me and Patrick or I and Patrick" would also be wrong. Of course in everday language you will hear "me" and not "I".


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## Whodunit

lsp said:
			
		

> Absolutely agree that taking Patrick out will yield the correct result in both examples. As an additional caveat before taking English lessons from random websites, notice that the same  site spelled "where" incorrectly.



Thank you all very much. Now I'm positive what is correct. The thing with "where" didn't even catch my eye though. Thank you again.



			
				CubaCelt said:
			
		

> Of course in everday language you will hear "me" and not "I".



Have you really heard this? But that contradicts all the replies here.


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## CubaCelt

Using "Patrick and I" or "You and I.." are correct formal English. English speakers would use this form in a job interview or a formal social occasion. You will hear school children being corrected when they use the "me" form. However in everyday language it is almost always "me and Patrick". Someone using "Patrick and I" would be considered a snob (an upper class twat).


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## cuchuflete

CubaCelt said:
			
		

> Someone using "Patrick and I" would be considered a snob (an upper class twat).



Ah, the joys of BE _vs._ AE.  An American would have written, "...(an upper class tw*i*t)."



> The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition.  2000. *twat* PRONUNCIATION:
> 
> tw
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> t       NOUN:*1.* _Vulgar Slang_  The vulva.  *2.* _Offensive & Vulgar Slang_  A woman or girl.  ETYMOLOGY:Origin unknown.


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## CubaCelt

Hola CuChu

Is there a place on the net where I can find audio versions of specific Spanish words?

PS: The greatest writers in the English language were Irish.


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## te gato

CubaCelt said:
			
		

> Using "Patrick and I" or "You and I.." are correct formal English. English speakers would use this form in a job interview or a formal social occasion. You will hear school children being corrected when they use the "me" form. However in everyday language it is almost always "me and Patrick". Someone using "Patrick and I" would be considered a snob (an upper class twat).


 
CubaCelt;
Hello..First..Yes the children are corrected for this Improper usage of the word "Me"....Second..Then I must be an upper class twat/twit because I do not say it that way ..and neither do any of my friends, relatives, associates..yadda, yadda...So I was just wondering...Would using the wrong version be a "American" thing??  
te gato


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## Whodunit

te gato said:
			
		

> CubaCelt;
> Hello..First..Yes the children are corrected for this Improper usage of the word "Me"....Second..Then I must be an upper class twat/twit because I do not say it that way ..and neither do any of my friends, relatives, associates..yadda, yadda...So I was just wondering...Would using the wrong version be a "American" thing??
> te gato



And I must be a child that would say "me".

Why did you write "a 'American' thing"? I would've written "a*n* 'American' thing". Don't you assimilate the article "a" to a word beginning with a pronounced vowel in inverteted commas? Or was it a typo?

_E.g._ a*n* English accent --> _but _ *a* "English accent" --> _and _ a*n* English "accent" --> _so _ "a(*n*?)/one" English accent _???_

Oh, no, English can be so difficult sometimes.


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## te gato

whodunit said:
			
		

> And I must be a child that would say "me".
> 
> Why did you write "a 'American' thing"? I would've written "a*n* 'American' thing". Don't you assimilate the article "a" to a word beginning with a pronounced vowel in inverteted commas? Or was it a typo?
> 
> _E.g._ a*n* English accent --> _but _*a* "English accent" --> _and _a*n* English "accent" --> _so _"a(*n*?)/one" English accent _???_
> 
> Oh, no, English can be so difficult sometimes.


Hello whodunit;
I did not intend to offend..I was asking a question ? Here in Canada we do not use 'me' that way...and I do not consider myself a snob or a twat  
As for the a/an ...oops typo...thanks..
te gato


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## gotitadeleche

CubaCelt said:
			
		

> Using "Patrick and I" or "You and I.." are correct formal English. English speakers would use this form in a job interview or a formal social occasion. You will hear school children being corrected when they use the "me" form. However in everyday language it is almost always "me and Patrick". Someone using "Patrick and I" would be considered a snob (an upper class twat).



Although you hear "Patrick and me" used as a subject quite often in the US, it generally show a lower level of education, or at least someone unconcerned about grammar. Worse yet, you will hear "Me and Patrick," which sounds "country" and/or uneducated. You can actually hear people say, "Me an' Patrick was coming up the road when..." That is three errors in the first four words: using me as the subject, putting me before the other person, and using a single verb with two subjects.


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## CubaCelt

gotitadeleche said:
			
		

> Although you hear "Patrick and me" used as a subject quite often in the US, it generally show (SHOWS) a lower level of education, or at least someone unconcerned about grammar. Worse yet, you will hear "Me and Patrick," which sounds "country" and/or uneducated. You can actually hear people say, "Me an' Patrick was coming up the road when..." That is three errors in the first four words: using me as the subject, putting me before the other person, and using a single verb with two subjects.


 
It is not only a case of grammar it is also efficiency. It is quicker and easier to say "me and Patrick". Of course this construction would never be used if your friends name was Joe.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Thank you very much. But if I'd say "Patrick and me, we went ..." so that would be the correct one.
> 
> And what about this site?


MILLIONS of people would say, informally, what you just typed, and therefore you will see it in many books, in dialogue. You will normally not find it in narration. I also believe you will hear it many more times than you will see it.

But I would try to avoid it. I would not say it myself. Many people would lable it "sub-standard" English.

Gaer


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## gotitadeleche

CubaCelt said:
			
		

> It is not only a case of grammar it is also efficiency. It is quicker and easier to say "me and Patrick". Of course this construction would never be used if your friends name was Joe.



CubaCelt, I hope you did not take offense at what I said. Perhaps I was not clear enough, but I was trying to compare with the attitude toward that usage here in the United States. Apparently in Ireland it's use is more widespread and accepted. And thanks for correcting my spelling error.


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## CubaCelt

gotitadeleche said:
			
		

> CubaCelt, I hope you did not take offense at what I said. Perhaps I was not clear enough, but I was trying to compare with the attitude toward that usage here in the United States. Apparently in Ireland it's use is more widespread and accepted. And thanks for correcting my spelling error.


 
No offence taken, I think in many part of the US people are more formal. In Ireland also people do not think of English as the our own language. That's probably why we feel free to abuse it when is suits us.


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## Whodunit

CubaCelt said:
			
		

> No offence taken, I think in many part*s* of the US people are more formal. In Ireland also people do not think of English as the*ir* own language. That's probably why we feel free to abuse it when is suits us.



I don't want to correct you, but I'm positive there were two typos. I've not let me know, and I'll delete my suggestions in your quotation.


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## lsp

gotitadeleche said:
			
		

> Although you hear "Patrick and me" used as a subject quite often in the US, it generally show a lower level of education, or at least someone unconcerned about grammar. Worse yet, you will hear "Me and Patrick," which sounds "country" and/or uneducated. You can actually hear people say, "Me an' Patrick was coming up the road when..." That is three errors in the first four words: using me as the subject, putting me before the other person, and using a single verb with two subjects.


I agree completely. And I am not referring to formal speech or formal writing. It is often said incorrectly in laziness, in those most casual  situations where laziness might go unnoticed, but it's still plain old wrong. Although gammar, as many WR posts discuss, is not a high priority in America anymore, this one is neither an obscure rule (like a split infinitive), nor a much-debated one (like ending a sentence with a preposition).


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## garryknight

whodunit said:
			
		

> CubaCelt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No offence taken, I think in many part*s* of the US people are more formal. In Ireland also people do not think of English as the*ir* own language. That's probably why we feel free to abuse it when i*t* suits us.
> 
> I don't want to correct you, but I'm positive there were two typos. I've If not let me know, and I'll delete my suggestions in your quotation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were 3 typos in CubaCelt's post. And 1 in yours.
Click to expand...


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## Nick

The "me and ..." construction is often used in spoken English as things are remembered.

- Who was at the party last Saturday?
- Me and ... Joe and Sue, ... Mark, ... John, Bob, Melissa, ... Robert.


The "me and ..." construction is informal and is acceptable in almost all situations (it is only unacceptable in a formal setting, such as a job interview). As said before, to say "... and I" can seem snobbish.


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## gaer

Nick said:
			
		

> The "me and ..." construction is often used in spoken English as things are remembered.
> 
> - Who was at the party last Saturday?
> - Me and ... Joe and Sue, ... Mark, ... John, Bob, Melissa, ... Robert.
> 
> 
> The "me and ..." construction is informal and is acceptable in almost all situations (it is only unacceptable in a formal setting, such as a job interview). As said before, to say "... and I" can seem snobbish.


I'm not sure everyone here would agree with you about "... and I" sounding snobbish, but you're very right that it is VERY common. 

Gaer


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## te gato

gaer said:
			
		

> I'm not sure everyone here would agree with you about "... and I" sounding snobbish, but you're very right that it is VERY common.
> 
> Gaer


Hello gaer;
Yes you are correct.. we have been through the 
   Snob = Twit = Twat  exchange... in this thread..I still can't believe I' m considered a twat....
te gato


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## Benjy

te gato said:
			
		

> Hello gaer;
> Yes you are correct.. we have been through the
> Snob = Twit = Twat  exchange... in this thread..I still can't believe I' m considered a twat....
> te gato



hrm twat in brE sense of the word?


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## Whodunit

garryknight said:
			
		

> whodunit said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were 3 typos in CubaCelt's post. And 1 in yours.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, correcting and be corrected oneself. How embarrassing ...
Click to expand...


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> garryknight said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, correcting and be corrected oneself. How embarrassing ...
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, I rarely mention typos unless I'm not sure if the person who typed them might be making a real mistake, no a typing mistake.
Click to expand...


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## lsp

gaer said:
			
		

> In fact, I rarely mention typos unless I'm not sure if the person who typed them might be making a real mistake, no*t* a typing mistake.


I agree, with one more exception: if I think it is confusing for people who are learning the language used, perhaps still at a beginner level, who might be confused (see edit above) !


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## gaer

lsp said:
			
		

> I agree, with one more exception: if I think it is confusing for people who are learning the language used, perhaps still at a beginner level, who might be confused (see edit above) !


Good point! And that would not have been caught by a spellchecker either.


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## Benjy

i have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way


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## gaer

Benjy said:
			
		

> i have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way


Well, there's certainly a huge GREY area here.


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## lsp

Benjy said:
			
		

> i have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way


And all the people who agree have the utmost respect for you!!!!!! 
Affectionately (you know that, right?) 
Lsp


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## mjscott

please, Please, PLEASE--has anyone besides me (or is it I?) read the word, _twat_ and known that it is a somewhat derogatory term (more offensive than _me_ or _I _usage) for female anatomy--(or am I in the wrong forum?)

However, in my neck of the woods it's okay to call someone a twit.


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## gaer

mjscott said:
			
		

> please, Please, PLEASE--has anyone besides me (or is it I?) read the word, _twat_ and known that it is a somewhat derogatory term (more offensive than _me_ or _I _usage) for female anatomy--(or am I in the wrong forum?)
> 
> However, in my neck of the woods it's okay to call someone a twit.


I DEFINITELY noticed it, but apparently no one else wanted to call attention to it. Actually, it ticked me off…

Gaer


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## te gato

gaer said:
			
		

> I DEFINITELY noticed it, but apparently no one else wanted to call attention to it. Actually, it ticked me off…
> 
> Gaer


No others noticed it as well...cuchu responded...but yes it was not a nice thing to say....
te gato


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## lsp

I thought Post #16 was pretty clear.


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## gaer

lsp said:
			
		

> I thought Post #16 was pretty clear.


Obviously not to the person who posted the insulting word, who apparently thinks this is a perfectly acceptable word here and who did not have the manners to apologize.

The point, as I see it, is that someone made a very nasty comment, for no reason, and only one person acknowledged it. No one else stood up for the person who was insulted.

If it had happened to me, I'd be steamed.

So, what am I missing here?

Gaer


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