# Taiwan Mandarin: retroflex (zh, ch, sh)



## hebe_o17

Hello,

I am a beginner in mandarin. At first I only want to learn the language which made me decide to enroll in a mandarin class. But then, I became fond of watching Taiwanese Series and started to love the language as well. But I found out that our teacher is teaching us the standard one which is different from the Taiwanese mandarin where in the use of de-retroflex is not widely used. So if that's the case. How would one distinguish zh,ch and sh from j,q, and x when listening to a Taiwanese mandarin speaker?

thank you in advance)


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## Serafín33

hebe_o17 said:


> But I found out that our teacher is teaching us the standard one which is different from the Taiwanese mandarin where in the use of de-*retroflex consonants* *aren't* not widely used.


Note the English usage correction I made.

First of all, it's not that they pronounce zh, ch and sh as j, q, and x, but they pronounce them like z, c and s.

The thing is, you only need to learn to distinguish them if you use the distinction of zh/z, ch/c, sh/s already; if you don't... then the distinction was never there. If you do distinguish them, then it's just based on context, what words are used around the word.


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## indigoduck

hebe_o17 said:


> How would one distinguish zh,ch and sh from j,q, and x when listening to a Taiwanese mandarin speaker?



Hi, to distinguish between 機器西 vs. 只吃石（頭） ? Did i misunderstand?

I think you meant to distinguish Zh, ch, sh from z, c, s right in taiwanese mandarin, right?

I think anybody would be able to distinguish zh/z, ch/c, sh/s from j, q, x since they are distinct sounds.

This is another one of those topics that just doesn't have an answer that will work all the time. To learn putonghua via taiwanese mandarin can be easier or more difficult. The difference between zh and z is not as clear cut as it is on the mainland especially in casual talk like they have in tv drama.

In my opinion, you just need to immerse yourself in Taiwanese mandarin and then your ear will grow accustomed via experience and be able to distinguish the differences naturally over time, only after you've learned the difference in sounds via context.

This one just comes down to experience.


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## viajero_canjeado

indigoduck said:


> In my opinion, you just need to immerse yourself in Taiwanese mandarin and then your ear will grow accustomed via experience and be able to distinguish the differences naturally over time, only after you've learned the difference in sounds via context.
> 
> This one just comes down to experience.



I agree with what you said about experience, but the truth is that in Taiwan most of the time you won't "distinguish" any difference between ㄓ and ㄗ，ㄔ and ㄘ， or ㄕ and ㄙ。 So what it comes down to is getting used to 本地人的辭彙。久而久之你一聽就知道是台中而不是台宗，就算聽起來一樣。（Translation： after a while you just know automatically that the person talking is saying Taizhong and not Taizong, even though they technically pronounce it Taizong instead of Taizhong. By the way, this is the name of a major Taiwanese city.)

Interestingly, perhaps due to sociolinguistic factors, sometimes I've heard Taiwanese people make a retroflex where there wasn't one to begin with. One or two examples: once a graduate student insisted to me that 村 was pronounced with a ㄔ，the same as 春。 Also, and I hear this one occasionally from different people, people will sometimes pronounce the 思 in 不好意思 as 詩。 I think it's because it makes it sound somehow more formalized (and perhaps contrite?). I've heard lots more examples like that.

At any rate, sometimes I still stumble over new words, like for example I wasn't sure in a conversation yesterday if the person was saying 總族 or 種族 or 總築  or 種築。Of course, now I know it was the second one. That's just a matter of practice, so read a lot, speak a lot, listen a lot, and ask a lot of questions, preferably to native speakers that don't get annoyed by people who ask lots of questions.

Best of luck with your studies!


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## Serafín33

viajero_canjeado said:


> Interestingly, perhaps due to sociolinguistic factors, sometimes I've heard Taiwanese people make a retroflex where there wasn't one to begin with. One or two examples: once a graduate student insisted to me that 村 was pronounced with a ㄔ，the same as 春。 Also, and I hear this one occasionally from different people, people will sometimes pronounce the 思 in 不好意思 as 詩。 I think it's because it makes it sound somehow more formalized (and perhaps contrite?). I've heard lots more examples like that.


Those are perfect examples of hypercorrection! Indeed, I've heard Taiwanese people tell me that in "correct" pronunciation you're supposed to pronounce ㄓ and ㄗ, etc., differently, so I guess hypercorrection is something that could or does normally happen.


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## hebe_o17

hi there, first of all thank you for all your replies.



indigoduck said:


> I think you meant to distinguish Zh, ch, sh from z, c, s right in taiwanese mandarin, right?
> 
> I think anybody would be able to distinguish zh/z, ch/c, sh/s from j, q, x since they are distinct sounds.



I am sorry for making you confuse but I am really referring to j,q,x. It's really hard for me to explain since I am just beginning to learn the language and I am not good in English either, so please bear with me. Let's put it this way, there was a Taiwanese pop song entitled '爱上你' and when the singer (who were actually the Taiwanese girl group, S.H.E) pronounced '上' it sounds more like 'xiang' to me, not 'shang' nor 'sang'. And I also heard from a Taiwanese series that I've watched that they pronounced '吃' in '好吃' like when they pronounce '七' in '七月'. And finally, I also heard them pronounce '只' as 'ji'.
It's confusing. Thank you so much.



viajero_canjeado said:


> Best of luck with your studies!



Thank you so much.


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## hkenneth

As a native speaker, I can easily distinguish zh/z, ch/c, sh/s, but I will never ever be able to distinguish in/ing, en/eng LOL

And I love Taiwanese accent!~


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## Razzle Storm

viajero_canjeado, thank you for sharing that. I had no idea that even existed. 

I had a few Taiwanese friends who came to Beijing recently and overcompensated with adding retroflex and 儿化音 to everything, which was interesting. I'm pretty sure they were just making fun though. I've noticed that one of them (a Chinese teacher) does pronounce retroflex when talking with me and other mainlanders, but not when talking with other Taiwanese people. I don't know if that was something she had to learn to teach Chinese, or if it is an unconscious switch between "standardized Mandarin" and "Taiwan Mandarin".


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## viajero_canjeado

Hey Razzle,


Yeah I've done some traveling with Taiwanese classmates, and found that they too tended to take on a mainland-style accent at times, usually to pick fun, like doing impressions and imitations. Some examples that stick out in my mind apart from 兒化 and exaggerated 捲舌 are saying 行 as a response (where usually in Taiwan you just say 好 or 可以 or 嗯, almost never a standalone 行), and also 是吧? at the end of sentences，which mainlanders appear to use a lot but to Taiwanese ears can sound a bit... abrupt? Could just be my misimpression though.


As for the Taiwanese lady speaking with her compatriots with a Taiwanese accent but managing to assume a mainland accent when speaking with mainlanders, this is a very natural phenomenon:  she'd be sure to sound like she was putting on airs if she didn't use a Taiwanese accent with her friends from Taiwan, and perhaps get ribbed because of it. Yet at the same time she's able to assimilate and emulate (if not perfectly) a mainland accent; I think it's the same way I'd do if I lived in England for a long time. I'd learn to speak with a British accent, but when I started talking to an American I'd probably shed the British accent for my more native one.


On the other hand, I know a Taiwanese college student who studies on the mainland, and when she came back we were having a conversation with other locals and the word 咒 came up, and of course it was pronounced zou4. She didn't comprehend at first, but finally she figured out what word they were trying to say and kind of impatiently blurted "是咒啦，不是奏好不好!" So, apparently she had gotten used to the clear distinction between the sounds during her time on the mainland.


@hebe_o17: Interesting quandary! I'd never put much thought into the possibility of mixing up those consonants before; but now that you mention it I can see why it's possible. The Taiwanese pronunciation for 是 sounds like 西 (xi) - I guess it might be more closely related to 系 - but anyway I've heard lots of people say things like 不系啦！.... which makes me wonder if it's just a simple reversion to Taiwanese (code-switching within a single utterance) or just slight modification of the "shi4" pronunciation to a speech pattern more in tune with the local dialect but still, in the speaker's mind, a Mandarin utterance.


I checked with a native speaker, and was informed that sometimes young ladies in Taiwan are known to deliberately speak this way (pronouncing 吃 more like 七 or 只 as 幾），perhaps to appear cute or to 撒嬌. It occurred to me that I used to mix up 睡覺 and 睡著, because they both sort of sound like a "j" in English; however, after a while you get to where you notice the "i" sound in "jiao", which is completely lacking in "zhao".


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## hebe_o17

viajero_canjeado said:


> @hebe_o17: Interesting quandary! I'd never put much thought into the possibility of mixing up those consonants before; but now that you mention it I can see why it's possible. The Taiwanese pronunciation for 是 sounds like 西 (xi) - I guess it might be more closely related to 系 - but anyway I've heard lots of people say things like 不系啦！.... which makes me wonder if it's just a simple reversion to Taiwanese (code-switching within a single utterance) or just slight modification of the "shi4" pronunciation to a speech pattern more in tune with the local dialect but still, in the speaker's mind, a Mandarin utterance.
> 
> I checked with a native speaker, and was informed that sometimes young ladies in Taiwan are known to deliberately speak this way (pronouncing 吃 more like 七 or 只 as 幾），perhaps to appear cute or to 撒嬌. It occurred to me that I used to mix up 睡覺 and 睡著, because they both sort of sound like a "j" in English; however, after a while you get to where you notice the "i" sound in "jiao", which is completely lacking in "zhao".


Thanks for the information, so is it possible to distinguish the difference between those consonants through the structure or construction of the sentence? I mean, when you are not a native Taiwanese Mandarin speaker and you hear a native speaker say 'wan xiang hao', you'll probably know that she really means '晚上好' though it sounds more like '晚像好' won't you?

I guess I should better find a Taiwanese teacher since my current teacher is from 福建 in Mainland China. And she's very clear in pronouncing the difference between zh/j,ch/q and sh/x. However, honestly I have no problem in distinguishing zh/z,ch/c and sh/s. I don't know why. Is it really possible or am I just having trouble with my hearing?



hkenneth said:


> As a native speaker, I can easily distinguish zh/z, ch/c, sh/s


Me too, I have no problem (or haven't got a problem YET) with distinguishing zh/z, ch/c and sh/s though I am not a native Mandarin speaker.



hkenneth said:


> And I love Taiwanese accent!~


Same here. It sounds cute


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## viajero_canjeado

hebe_o17 said:


> Thanks for the information, so is it possible to distinguish the difference between those consonants through the structure or construction of the sentence? I mean, when you are not a native Taiwanese Mandarin speaker and you hear a native speaker say 'wan xiang hao', you'll probably know that she really means '晚上好' though it sounds more like '晚像好' won't you?
> 
> I guess I should better find a Taiwanese teacher since my current teacher is from 福建 in Mainland China. And she's very clear in pronouncing the difference between zh/j,ch/q and sh/x. However, honestly I have no problem in distinguishing zh/z,ch/c and sh/s. I don't know why. Is it really possible or am I just having trouble with my hearing?



Hey again hebe,

Actually the 福建 accent is pretty close to the Taiwanese one. Your teacher, being trained in the standard Chinese language, is probably careful to pronounce the consonants very properly, that's why you don't have any trouble distinguishing the sounds when she talks. You probably wouldn't hear her say either wan3xiang4hao3 or wan3sang4hao3. Of course, a Taiwanese person wouldn't say that either.. they'd say 晚安 (wan3an1). But if they wanted to say 上課 it'd (generally, but with exceptions like I mentioned earlier for children or young ladies trying to act cutesy) sound like sangke and not xiangke.

Basically, the pattern goes like this:
zhi and zi = both sound like zi (so that 果汁 sounds like 果資)
chi and ci = both sound like ci (so that 吃飯 sounds like 疵飯)
shi and si = bound sound like si (so that 事情 sounds like 似情)
ri = not always changed, but sometimes can sound like an "l" (so that 熱 sounds like 樂) and even occasionally like "z"

There are others, like 冷 sounding like nen3, but those don't have as much to do with your original question. All I can say from experience is that the real difficulty you'll experience, if you go live in Taiwan or talk with Taiwanese people or watch their tv shows, will be differentiating those sounds above, not "j, q, and x". With those words (like jiao, qiao and xiao), all you have to do is hone in on the "i" sound (IPA notation: /iː/), which is a very conspicuous high front unrounded vowel. The words zhao, chao, and shao do not have this easily recognizable vocalic sound, so if you listen out for that, you'll be able to differentiate "xiao" from "shao" and so on without any difficulty.

加油! or should I say... 渣油!


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## hebe_o17

viajero_canjeado said:


> All I can say from experience is that the real difficulty you'll experience, if you go live in Taiwan or talk with Taiwanese people or watch their tv shows, will be differentiating those sounds above, not "j, q, and x".



Oh... so what I should learn to distinguish if I want to live in Taiwan is the difference between zh/z, ch/c and sh/s. 我知道了! Thank you so much. Actually, I've asked about j,q and x because I am a fan of the Taiwanese girl group named S.H.E and I heard some of their songs where in they pronounced sh as x. And since they are still young, it's clear to me now that they only make that to sound cute, did I get it right?

真的谢谢您!)


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## viajero_canjeado

hebe_o17 said:


> Actually, I've asked about j,q and x because I am a fan of the Taiwanese girl group named S.H.E and I heard some of their songs where in they pronounced sh as x. And since they are still young, it's clear to me now that they only make that to sound cute, did I get it right?



To be truthful, I've never heard of the band  so it's hard to know for sure without listening to their songs, but my guess would be to that effect.


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## hebe_o17

Oh! But you are currently in Taiwan right? (I recognize the characters in your location. And I envy you, I wish I am in Taiwan too. hehe) BTW, I thought they are well-known since they've received several music awards. Well, maybe it's because they are not functioning as a group now. But you probably heard about 田馥甄, she's a member of that group but currently working as a soloist.

Well, many thanks again


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## 南島君

Hi hebe_017,

Due to historical reason, z, c, s (ʦ, ʦh, s) and j, q, x (ʨ, ʨh, ɕ) of Mandarin are of complimentary distribution (wikipedia link) in which j, q, x (ʨ, ʨh, ɕ) will only go along with high front vowels i and ü (i and y) but not u, a, e, o; the z, c, s (ʦ, ʦh, s) [and additionally zh, ch, sh / tʂ, tʂh, ʂ] as counterpart do not form segments with i and ü (i and y).

Which means, there will only be 
ji, qi, xi (ʨi, ʨhi, ɕi), jü, qü (ʨy, ʨhy).…  but not *ja, *qa, *xa (*ʨa, *ʨha, *ɕa), *ju, *qu(*ʨu, *ʨhu)…….
and
za, ca, sa (ʦa, ʦha, sa), zu, cu (ʦu, ʦhu)…. but not *zi, *ci, *si (*ʦi, *ʦhi, *si not ʦɿ, ʦhɿ, sɿ), *zü, *cü (*ʦy, *ʦhy)…….

A little problem you must bear in mind is that Hanyu Pinyin transliterate /i/ (as in ji, qi, xi) and /ɿ/ (as in zi, ci, si) as “i", also the /u/ (as in zu, cu, su) as “u” and /y/ (as in jü, qü, xü) as “ü”, yet most of the time the pair of umlaut dots was omitted (the principle is to elide the pair of umlaut dots except for the segments which would cause any confusion, but would be unnecessary for the two pairs consonant sets in discussion are in complimentary distribution), which ultimately will probably, tho not compulsory, lead you to the assumption of zi, ci, si (ʦɿ, ʦhɿ, sɿ should be pronounced as tsi, tshi, si, and ji, qi, xi (ʨi, ʨhi, ɕi) vice versa.

lc


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## hebe_o17

Thank you for sharing this information. But Hanyu Pinyin was not used in Taiwan, right? (I've just heard that they use another romanization system called Tongyong Pinyin) Do you know any website where I can visit to learn Taiwanese Mandarin? I already visited some Mandarin tutorial site but unfortunately they are all teaching the standard one just like my 中国老师. Thank you so much.. I really like to learn Taiwanese Mandarin since I'm planning to move there after earning my college degree, it's just located above the Philippines anyway... LOL.)

感谢您的帮助!! (I hope it's correct, I've said it to my 老师 last Wednesday (Teacher's day) through text and I will be very embarassed if it's wrong... haha)

真的谢谢你


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## Serafín33

Hanyu Pinyin is used in Taiwan too, but most people in Taiwan are more familiar with Bopomofo instead (which does the exact same things as Hanyu Pinyin anyway). I'm afraid it's gonna be hard to find materials for informal Taiwanese Mandarin in English (the formal Mandarin of Taiwan is nearly the same as that of China), if anybody here knows of any I'd be really interested...


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## hebe_o17

Thank you. I've learned a lot)


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