# New guidelines and links in "new thread" and "new reply" pages



## mkellogg

Hi everyone,

In an effort to help people in writing effective questions and responses  I have added some text to the New Thread and New Reply pages.  I know in some ways it clutters up the screen, but the hope is that it will improve the quality of some of the questions and answers.  We will see what happens...

If you have any proposed changes, please post them here in this thread.

There is one change that I will take care of in a few days:
Currently, users with more than 100 posts see one set of messages, and those under 100 posts see different instructions.  I plan to change this to 30 posts in a few days.

I hope this helps!

Mike


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## mkellogg

For those "Senior Members" out there, this is what non-Senior Members see when starting a thread:





> *Posting Guidelines:*
> - Put the word or phrase in the thread title.
> - Give context (the surrounding text). Many words and phrases can be translated differently depending on the context.
> - Give background: Did you read this in a newspaper or hear it in a film? What was the topic?
> - For anything longer than a common expression, you should try to translate it first. (Except monolingual forums)
> - New forum members cannot create links. You can write it out like "wordreference dot com".
> - One question per thread.
> - Do not: post personal information
> - Do not: post more than 4 lines of text from another website
> - Do not: USE ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, post chat-speak, advertisements or CV's
> - Do not: ask an unrelated question
> - Do not: In the title, use the words "help", "please", "urgent!" or "translate"
> -  Complete list of rules
> -  General posting information
> -  Help with writing ácçènts


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## lsp

I'll keep my fingers crossed on these changes, Mike!

How about...

Please try the WR dictionary and Search function first. Add to existing threads whenever possible if you still have a question, rather than starting a new thread.


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## geve

Very good!  You also added a link to 'search' and 'dictionary' next to the title box, right? This is very useful too!

Couldn't we just leave the message of your post #2 for all new threads, for all "categories" of members? It never hurts to have a little reminder...


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## fenixpollo

Here's what I see as a senior member. It appears in between the thread-starter box and the "submit" button. 


> Search: forums, dictionary - Do not reply to threads with no context. Report them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to moderators.
> - Suggest, politely, to newbies that they read the forum rules and forum stickies before posting.


 Right now, there are still members with 1-100 posts who are breaking the rules. Perhaps after the new notice has been in effect for a while, only foreros with less than 30 will need the guidelines. Right now, many foreros with less than 100 need the guidelines, too.

Suggestion: reduce the number of instructions to make them more digestable. Too many, and some of them will go unread. 





> Posting Guidelines:
> - Put the word or phrase in the thread title.
> - Give context (the surrounding text). Many words and phrases can be translated differently depending on the context.
> - Give background: Did you read this in a newspaper or hear it in a film? What was the topic?
> - For anything longer than a common expression, you should try to translate it first. (Except monolingual forums)
> - New forum members cannot create links. You can write it out like "wordreference dot com".
> - One question per thread.
> - Do not: post personal information
> - Do not: post more than 4 lines of text from another website
> - Do not: USE ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, post chat-speak, advertisements or CV's
> - Do not: ask an unrelated question
> - Do not: In the title, use the words "help", "please", "urgent!" or "translate"


 The last two already appear as positive statements at the start of the guidelines. The other two are, to my mind, are important, but not _vital_.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

I saw it! Excellent, Mike!


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## danielfranco

My paranoid streak went "whoa down, Nellie!" (I thought you had put the message there just for me, so I can stop being an ass).
But I think it's great! And I think I agree with the Lord of Poultry in thinking that perhaps the message should remain there to remind everyone up to the senior membership.
And, to be honest, some of us senior members could use some of those reminders sometimes....
Maybe after a thousand posts we should just get a message that reads something like: "Alright, already, why don't you just get over yourself and play nice, darn it?"


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## Etcetera

Excellent work! I like the changes.
Thank you, Mike!


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## mkellogg

This isn't right.  You all are supposed to be complaining!

Fp.  Good ideas, thanks.  Let me see what I can do with them.

Lsp, let's see how the "search" links beside the New thread title box works.  If people still don't catch the hint then we will dumb it down a little more.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Excellent.  There is no other word...

I have only one complain: why in the world didn't you do that before?  

Now seriously, I'm sure this will be very helpful from now on.  I agree with fenixpollo's suggestion, except one: is it me, or there are many members who still don't give a try of their own, before asking for help?

The rest, perfect.  Way to go, Mike!


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## Nunty

mkellogg said:


> This isn't right.  You all are supposed to be complaining!



Ummm, Mike? If you're feeling a lack, I'm sure we can work something out...


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## natasha2000

Excellent idea, Mike.

I agree with Fenix's suggestions, and I would like to add one more.

The text should be put ABOVE the text box, not UNDER it. I haven't noticed it (my text for "seniors") until I scrolled down, and very often, I do not scroll down, I just write. So, if the text for newbies is also under the text box, I suggest to put it ABOVE it, so they can see it reight after opening the Reply or New Thread window.


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## fenixpollo

natasha2000 said:


> The text should be put ABOVE the text box, not UNDER it.


 Part of me agrees, and the other part of me sees the logic in putting it under the text box, so that the user has to pass it (and theoretically read it) before clicking "submit".





Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> is it me, or there are many members who still don't give a try of their own, before asking for help?


 Look at this thread, especially post #7 and beyond, where we discussed the issue you bring up, Sweetie. It appears that each forum is different: some moderators require that an attempt be made first, while others don't.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

fenixpollo said:


> Look at this thread, especially post #7 and beyond, where we discussed the issue you bring up, Sweetie. It appears that each forum is different: some moderators require that an attempt be made first, while others don't.


 
Thanks, fp, I'll bear it in mind next time I find a post which suits that description. 

Then, the way Mike wrote the instructions sounds fine (to me), especially the use of "should", which makes it flexible enough. Don't you think?


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## fenixpollo

I agree that it's important, Sweetie, and that the wording is OK (although the "exception" isn't necessary if the "should" stays in there); I just think that the warnings about context are _vital_ and that the rest is just "nice to have".


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## geve

Just one additional comment: This


> You have selected 1 post that is not part of this thread. Quote this post as well, or deselect this post.


now appears under the short message as posted by fenixpollo. It took me a while to notice it. Would it be possible - and is it pertinent - to have it right under the reply box?


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## geve

Me again 
I switched my "Forum language" to French today (only temporarily, I'm too used to English and I can't find my way around in French!!) and noticed that the text you introduced in this thread isn't translated. Are you planning to have different versions for different displays (is it even possible?), or will it stay in English for everyone?


By the way, there's a typo (missing e) in the French version of the line "You have selected 1 post that is not part of this thread" : Vous avez sélectionné 1 message qui ne fait pas parti*e* de cette discussion.


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## mkellogg

geve,

Once I've made some changes and we are pretty sure that it isn't going to change too much more, then we will translate it for the benefit of everyone.


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## geve

mkellogg said:


> geve,
> 
> Once I've made some changes and we are pretty sure that it isn't going to change too much more, then we will translate it for the benefit of everyone.


Oh, good


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## maxiogee

mkellogg said:


> In an effort to help people in writing effective questions and responses  I have added some text to the New Thread and New Reply pages.  I know in some ways it clutters up the screen, but the hope is that it will improve the quality of some of the questions and answers.  We will see what happens...
> 
> If you have any proposed changes, please post them here in this thread.



I have just reported a post which was seeking a translation in a monolingual forum.
Very shortly afterwards someone responded to this post and suggested that the person had posted in the wrong forum.
Might it benefit the forums if the message in the reply window was adjusted to something on the lines of....

Rules for posting
Search: forums, dictionary - Do not reply to threads with no context. Report them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to moderators. 
- Do not reply to threads in the wrong forum. Report them 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 to moderators.
- Suggest, politely, to newbies that they read the forum rules and forum stickies before posting.​


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## Nunty

maxiogee said:


> I have just reported a post which was seeking a translation in a monolingual forum.
> Very shortly afterwards someone responded to this post and suggested that the person had posted in the wrong forum.
> Might it benefit the forums if the message in the reply window was adjusted to something on the lines of....
> Rules for posting
> Search: forums, dictionary - Do not reply to threads with no context. Report them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to moderators.
> - Do not reply to threads in the wrong forum. Report them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to moderators.
> - Suggest, politely, to newbies that they read the forum rules and forum stickies before posting.​


That's a good point. The thing that puzzles me is how can I 1) not reply to threads with no context or in the wrong forum while 2) suggesting to newbies that they read the rules and stickies. Hard to suggest without replying. What have I missed?


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## maxiogee

Nun-Translator said:


> That's a good point. The thing that puzzles me is how can I 1) not reply to threads with no context or in the wrong forum while 2) suggesting to newbies that they read the rules and stickies. Hard to suggest without replying. What have I missed?



PM 'em.


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## fenixpollo

maxiogee said:


> PM 'em.


 If I took time to PM every single newbie who posted in Spanish-English General Vocabulary and  Suggested, politely, that they read the forum rules and forum stickies before posting, then I would spend my time in the forum doing nothing else.  I fear that is the lot of the moderator... to spend one's entire time in the forum engaging in corrective action, rather than enjoying the forum for the reason that brought us all here.


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## TrentinaNE

Nun-Translator said:


> That's a good point. The thing that puzzles me is how can I 1) not reply to threads with no context or in the wrong forum while 2) suggesting to newbies that they read the rules and stickies. Hard to suggest without replying. What have I missed?


You don't have to take both of these actions all the time, Sister.  If a thread is in the wrong forum, just report it.  If there is no context, just report it.  Otherwise, when you are replying about something substantive, it doesn't hurt to throw in a reminder about useful thread titles, no SMS/chatspeak, etc. where those problems occur.  


			
				fenixpollo said:
			
		

> I fear that is the lot of the moderator... to spend one's entire time in the forum engaging in corrective action, rather than enjoying the forum for the reason that brought us all here.


Not my entire time, but more of it than I would like.  

​ Elisabetta


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## Nunty

TrentinaNE said:


> You don't have to take both of these actions all the time, Sister.  If a thread is in the wrong forum, just report it.  If there is no context, just report it.  Otherwise, when you are replying about something substantive, it doesn't hurt to throw in a reminder about useful thread titles, no SMS/chatspeak, etc. where those problems occur.  [...]


Thank you, Elisabetta. Makes perfect sense.


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## heidita

Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> ?
> 
> is it me, or there are many members who still don't give a try of their own, before asking for help?


 
I am rather surprised at this:

-





> For anything longer than a common expression,* you should try to translate it first*. (Except monolingual forums)


 

I actually opened a thread on this page only very recently to mention the fact that many members do not pay attention to this rule. And others mentioned that such a rule didn't exist. Should I be able to see this rule?


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## maxiogee

heidita said:


> I actually opened a thread on this page only very recently to mention the fact that many members do not pay attention to this rule. And others mentioned that such a rule didn't exist. Should I be able to see this rule?



A) it's not a rule heidita, it's a guideline

B) No, you shouldn't see it. We tribal elders of the WordRef village get a different message than the pubescent teenagers


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## lsp

maxiogee said:


> PM 'em.



In addition to reporting a post to alert a mod, a reply within the thread also alerts other (possible more junior members) what the correct action is, and encourages them _not_ to reply to questions outside the scope of the forum, or to _not_ to post things like "I think you're in the wrong forum, but here's a possible answer." A PM doesn't have this added, visible benefit.


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## panjandrum

lsp said:


> *In addition to reporting a post to alert a mod,* a reply within the thread also alerts other (possible more junior members) what the correct action is, and encourages them _not_ to reply to questions outside the scope of the forum, or to _not_ to post things like "I think you're in the wrong forum, but here's a possible answer." A PM doesn't have this added, visible benefit.


If only it were in addition to.
From observation, misplaced posts are
(1) Answered anyway;
(2) Have "wrong forum" posts added;
(3) Ignored;
.
.
.
.
(97) Reported.

So any random mod, browsing through the forum, finds a thread that is in the wrong forum and hours old. The original poster has gone home for dinner. Possibly, there has been a "wrong forum" post and the original poster has duplicated the thread once or twice in the right forum.

I find these every day.
I find lots of "you're in the wrong forum" posts.
None of these match up with reported posts.

Reported posts are noticed and normally dealt with in minutes.

If you think there's something wrong with a post, report it first.
If you feel inspired to comment on the thread as well - that's your choice.

As must be obvious by now, this is my "mod's pet peeve" of the moment, hence the announcement in the English Only forum:



> The forums are getting busier and we are getting a lot of questions in English Only that would be better answered in one of the other language forums.
> 
> When moderators find these, we usually take some appropriate action - but often we don't find them until long after they have been posted and the original questioner has given up.
> 
> To help us, and to help those who mistakenly post translation requests here, please use the red triangle report-a-post
> 
> 
> You will find that at the top right of the post.
> 
> It's easier than posting on the thread to say "You've posted in the wrong forum", and it should be a lot more helpful.


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## .   1

Nun-Translator said:


> The thing that puzzles me is how can I ... suggesting to newbies that they read the rules and stickies. Hard to suggest without replying. What have I missed?


This is a dangerous thing for a non moderator to do.

I have been on the receiving end of numerous 'self appointed tribal elders' suggesting this, that and the other thing. It is often just stylistic but it is almost always repugnant.

Some people here think that they half know what is going on here and they are at best half right and the rest have every right to be confused but the end result is a very heavily moderated forum with official badged constables to keep the peace. These constables do a very tricky job crossing many cultures and they achieve this in no small part because of the collaborative nature of their 'team moderation' where a confused moderator can discuss the matter with another moderator with more of a chance to use similar life experiences to understand the situation.

I have seen a staggering number of incidents here that I felt compelled to comment on and each time I have done so I have shot myself in the foot because I have only myself to collaborate with and all that does is make me go blind to my own foibles.

I would suggest extreme caution in any tribal elders attempting to give 'advice' to newbies. I reckon that we have moderators who can do that without risking a flame war when individuals inevitably blunder into unseen cultural shibboleths.


.,,


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## heidita

lsp said:


> In addition to reporting a post to alert a mod, a reply within the thread also alerts other (possible more junior members) what the correct action is, .


 
This is what I thought. Don't have mods enough on their hands to deal with silly things like "listen, try first" or "listen, this is the English only forum"? I think, copy tight and stuff are really important as this can get the forum into trouble. 

Even then, I don't report immediately, I prefer sending a PM to several mods on the forum, to indicate that that might be a copyright thing. Mostly, because I am never sure if it actually_ is_ a copyright problem.


. said:


> These constables do a very tricky job crossing many cultures and they achieve this in no small part because of the collaborative nature of their 'team moderation' where a confused moderator can discuss the matter with another moderator with more of a chance to use similar life experiences to understand the situation.


 
I agree, it must be a tricky job. And a time taking one. That's why I think they certainly must have their hands full.



> I would suggest extreme caution in any tribal elders attempting to give 'advice' to newbies.


 
I suppose I can be counted among the tribal elders and the elders anyway. p )

I would think that helps. Why not? Risk a bad answer from the newbies? So what? Then it is still time to report. 

Anyway, I am even against reporting even getting a very nasty personal attack. 

I don't think this includes copy right. Or spam of course. Very new on the forum, I received a spam as a PM. I reported, of course. (Actually I thought it was an exclusive offer! I had never seen a spam before! )


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## TrentinaNE

heidita said:


> Even then, I don't report immediately, I prefer sending a PM to several mods on the forum, to indicate that that might be a copyright thing. Mostly, because I am never sure if it actually_ is_ a copyright problem.


Because it cannot be stressed enough:  Every moderator prefers that forer@s *use the report-a-post feature instead of sending PMs*.  It is simply more efficient for us to receive information about potentially problematic posts that way!  

Elisabetta


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## fenixpollo

. said:


> I have been on the receiving end of numerous 'self appointed tribal elders' suggesting this, that and the other thing. It is often just stylistic but it is almost always repugnant.


 I was in demi-moderator mode for a while: responding to contextless threads by saying "please read the rules, which require you to include background information, a complete sentence, blah, blah, blah"... I'd even post a link to the rules thread.  People would often reply, "but, I don't have any context to post" and I would get frustrated and define the word context for them. Objective foreros could tell that I was out of control when I changed my signature to be the definition of context.

In short, a Senior Member Nazi.

In hundreds of posts like this, only one or two people actually _said_ they were offended, and there wasn't any flaming that I was aware of.... but I'm afraid to think of the atmosphere that I was creating.... 

But I'm much better, now.


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## .   1

heidita said:


> I would think that helps. Why not? Risk a bad answer from the newbies? So what? Then it is still time to report.


See below.  The risk you take is to the psyche of the newbie.  How on Earth could a newbie infringe upon your position here?  You have the power to make a newbie think that this place is something that it is not and this is stageringly confusing to newbies.
You have your own method of operation which is vastly different to mine.
What would happen if a newbie is on the receiving end of 'advice' from two vastly contrasting tribal elders?  One requiring more punctuation and the other complaining of too much punctuation or the former instructing a rigid cookie cutter approach and the latter _lassaiz faire_ one being anal about spelling and the other not giving a rats.
We would wind up with a more mentally eclectic group than we currently have.



fenixpollo said:


> In hundreds of posts like this, only one or two people actually _said_ they were offended, and there wasn't any flaming that I was aware of.... but I'm afraid to think of the atmosphere that I was creating....


I will guarantee you that you offended many but I am not telling you any news.  The wonderful thing about your statement is the inherent humanity displayed by your modification of such behaviour.

PMs are very dangerous things.
Statements made in the open and on the boards for all to see can be dealt with in a number of ways.  Often any potential problem is spotted by the actual elders of this joint or other members who take steps to fix the problem but this peer review and support is impossible for a statement made in a PM.
PMs are very personal and I have been tempted to disable the damn things because of approaches from idiots but this would also serve to cut me off from the people who actually matter to me.
PMs should be used by members other than moderators for matters no more critical than mentioning a typo or a transposition or a coding error.  Behavioural problems are best left to be dealt with by moderators.

.,,


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## DesertCat

I'm in complete agreement with .,, 

I was quite put off to WR some months back when several self-appointed moderator types became active on IE (to the point of attempting to enforce non-existent rules).  I haven't been here much in recent months due to very little free time, but it seems much calmer now.  Excessive public moderation can make the forums appear uptight not to mention adding unnecessary scrolling and/or reading for no good reason.

When it comes down to it, most of those who stick around figure it out and the ones that are just here for a quick question or two and not planning to return will probably not care or even realize they're breaking some rule.


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## jann

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> it cannot be stressed enough:  Every moderator prefers that forer@s *use the report-a-post feature instead of sending PMs*.  It is simply more efficient for us to receive information about potentially problematic posts that way!


I could not agree more!  Please, please, please, reporting is not being a "tattle-tale."  Don't feel bad about using the triangle.  If you report a post that isn't a problem, we just ignore it, I promise.  And we don't think any worse of you!  


			
				DesertCat said:
			
		

> I was quite put off to WR some months back when several self-appointed moderator types became active on IE (to the point of attempting to enforce non-existent rules). [...] Excessive public moderation can make the forums appear uptight not to mention adding unnecessary scrolling and/or reading for no good reason.


Again, I couldn't have said it better!  This is big part of why we French-English moderators feel that "moderation is best left to the mods."  We truly appreciate members who reply to, _"how do you say xxx in french? thx"_ with a gentle, _"Please, could you tell us your own attempt first? "_ We love users who reply to cryptic, context-less questions with, _"I don't understand what you're asking.  Maybe it would help if you could provide some context/the original English sentence/etc."_  And it's great when people (1) report posts with bad titles, (2) go ahead and reply to the question, and (3) add a nice, short note along the lines of _"PS. you'll often find that people answer faster if you put the key words in the thread title."_  In my mind, users who reply with these sorts of remarks are reminding us that we're all human here, and that a little common sense and common courtesy go a long way!

However, we remove direct user references to "the Rules" on French-English, and we contact users who post moderator-style links to the guidelines to ask them to desist.

 [On Fr-En, we find that for deep proofreading, long translations, obvious cheating on homework, multi-question threads, potential copyright infringement, and the like, it is often best if you just report and let the thread go unanswered.]

Jann


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## ampurdan

Spelling corrections are always welcome in WRF, provided that they don't make the discussion steer off-topic. Also, remember our rule number 2 when correcting someone: don't make them feel bad.

Reporting is so easy and trouble-free for forer@s.


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## geve

jann said:


> We truly appreciate members who reply to, _"how do you say xxx in french? thx"_ with a gentle, _"Please, could you tell us your own attempt first? "_ We love users who reply to cryptic, context-less questions with, _"I don't understand what you're asking. Maybe it would help if you could provide some context/the original English sentence/etc."_ And it's great when people (1) report posts with bad titles, (2) go ahead and reply to the question, and (3) add a nice, short note along the lines of _"PS. you'll often find that people answer faster if you put the key words in the thread title."_ In my mind, users who reply with these sorts of remarks are reminding us that we're all human here, and that a little common sense and common courtesy go a long way!
> 
> However, we remove direct user references to "the Rules" on French-English, and we contact users who post moderator-style links to the guidelines to ask them to desist.
> 
> [On Fr-En, we find that for deep proofreading, long translations, obvious cheating on homework, multi-question threads, potential copyright infringement, and the like, it is often best if you just report and let the thread go unanswered.]


Thank you Jann. This is a very useful feedback.


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