# Roman languages etymology: luia, luja, lofia, lóvia...



## Francelho

Hello. Can somebody help me find out the etymology for theses words in minor Roman languages, all of them meaning "sow" (female pig):

LADIN selvano    _luia_
VENETIAN          _luja_
CORSICAN         _lofia_
SARDINIAN log.  _lóvia
_
I don't think a connection with French _laie _(female wild boar) is possible, due to phonetic reasons. Also, French _laie _is supposed to have derived from the Frankish Germanic loanword *LEHA, and its existence in Sardinian doesn't seem likely to me. But I may be wrong! Thank you very much.


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## Sardokan1.0

Personally I've never heard in my life the word "_lóvia" _in Sardinian, perhaps it's used only in a restricted area of Sardinia. I suppose the contraction "Log." is for Logudorese (the central-northern Sardinian language); I speak Logudorese as motherlanguage (or Logudoresu to say more correctly in our way), the only word I know for "sow" (female pig) is *"súe"*

_p.s_
_However I've seen that "lóvia" is mentioned in Sardinian dictionaries, but as said before it could be restricted to a specific area of the island_


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## Francelho

Grazie per la tua informazione, Sardokan. In effetti, conosco anche la parola _sue _(la sola sopravvivente senza suffisso dal latino SUEM)_, _ma sempre attraverso i dizionari. È bello conoscere parlanti nativi di sardo!


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## Sardokan1.0

Gratzias a tie, si quéres ischire àteras cosas de sa limba nostra, pregunta puru, tantu no hamus difficultades a nos cumprendere!

saludu, nos intendimus!


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## Francelho

Perfetto! Il sardo è una lingua interessantissima. Spero davvero che non scomparirà mai. È la sola, a volte anche col romeno, a conservare parole dal latino classico che si sono perse nelle altre lingue romaniche. Ad esempio questo verbo _isquire_, dal latino SCIRE, che ha dato anche il romeno _ști_.


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## Francelho

By the way, Any idea about the etymology for _luia, luja, lofia _and _lóvia?_


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## bearded

No idea about the etymology, but perhaps it's interesting that also in the Milanese dialect there is _lögia _for 'sow' (it can be added to the list in #1).
The word _lögia _is sometimes used here as an offense addressed also to men.. in a very vulgar dialect. See here: lögia - Wikizionario.


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## Francelho

Grazie! È chiaro che è una parola diffusa per tutta quella zona.


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## Francelho

Hello! I found new informations. I found the Italian regional word "loia". De Mauro's definition is "sporcizia, sudiciume della pelle o degli abiti". The proposed etymology is Emilian "loja", coming from "loi" < LOLIUM (darnel), perhaps with the meaning of 'impure'.

I think it's evident that Italian 'loia' is the same word as Ladin 'luia', Sardinian 'lóvia', Milanese 'lögia', etc. But I guess they all come from a popular feminine form of Latin ILLUVIEM (dirt, rubbish) instead, which some languages would used as a name for the sow.

My question is: is it possible that also French 'laie' (female wild boar) could have originated from that feminine form of ILLUVIEM, given the semantic proximity? I guess it would have rather looked like "*luie", as in 'truie' (Italian 'troia'). What do you think?

Thank you.


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## Flaminius

Grand dictionnaire étymologique & historique du français (2005) s.v. 1.laie dit :


> 1130, _Saint Gilles (lehe)_; 1354, _Modus (laie)_, «femelle du sanglier» ; francique _lêka_ (moy. haut all. _liehe_).


It seems to be from Middle High German _liehe_.


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## Penyafort

Francelho said:


> Hello! I found new informations. I found the Italian regional word "loia". De Mauro's definition is "sporcizia, sudiciume della pelle o degli abiti". The proposed etymology is Emilian "loja", coming from "loi" < LOLIUM (darnel), perhaps with the meaning of 'impure'.
> 
> I think it's evident that Italian 'loia' is the same word as Ladin 'luia', Sardinian 'lóvia', Milanese 'lögia', etc. But I guess they all come from a popular feminine form of Latin ILLUVIEM (dirt, rubbish) instead, which some languages would used as a name for the sow.
> 
> My question is: is it possible that also French 'laie' (female wild boar) could have originated from that feminine form of ILLUVIEM, given the semantic proximity? I guess it would have rather looked like "*luie", as in 'truie' (Italian 'troia'). What do you think?



Usually words which appear in both Northern Gallo-Romance and Gallo-Italic languages also show up in Gallo-Iberian (Occitan, Catalan), such as the one for 'sow', _truja/troja/truèja_. Yet I can't think of any word coming from that _illuviem_. 

It is also interesting to notice that the origin of those _troia/truie/truja _is not completely clear either.

LOLIUM, on the other hand, has descendants in Italy and all of Iberia (_Cat. _jull, _Arag. _luello, _Sp. _joyo, _GPort _joio), as well as in Occitan _joèlh/jolh_. Not in French, where 'darnel' is called _ivraie _(<_ herba ebriaca _'drunken herb'). But there does not seem to be any relationship with animals at all in them.

I would say that the French _laie _coming from _leha _is quite convincing.



Flaminius said:


> Grand dictionnaire étymologique & historique du français (2005) s.v. 1.laie dit :
> 
> It seems to be from Middle High German _liehe_.



Or rather from an Old Frankish _lêha_ form, before diphthongization of that ê_._

(Le mot est déjà attesté sous la forme _leha _vers 800 dans le _Capitulaire de Villis _(_Französisches etymologisches Wörterbuch _t. 16, p. 455b).)


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## Francelho

Is there any living cognate of that Leha in any Germanic language today?


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## aum34

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Gratzias a tie, si quéres ischire àteras cosas de sa limba nostra, pregunta puru, tantu no hamus difficultades a nos cumprendere!
> 
> saludu, nos intendimus!



Wow, I almost understand it all! In Spanish:

"Gracias a ti, si quieres conocer otras cosas de nuestra lengua, pregunta ¿puru? (i don't understand this word), no hay tantas dificultades para comprendernos"

I'm really interested in learning about Sardian language but I almost did not find a proper website to do it.


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## Sardokan1.0

aum34 said:


> Wow, I almost understand it all! In Spanish:
> 
> "Gracias a ti, si quieres conocer otras cosas de nuestra lengua, pregunta ¿puru? (i don't understand this word), no hay tantas dificultades para comprendernos"
> 
> I'm really interested in learning about Sardian language but I almost did not find a proper website to do it.



puru = tambien, aunque


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## magosil79

I have found another possible explanation (of course it's an hypothesis): 
it could come from a latin form *_lulia_, a feminine form of *_luljus _from Latin _julius_ 'July'. 
Implying the name (_scrofa_) _lulia_, meaning a sow that has a litter of piglets in July.
This hypothesis could be corroborated by the name for July and sow in some Venetian dialects:
In Venetian dialect: _lugio _(July) and _lugia _(sow) and in another variety _lujo_ (July) and _luja_ (sow).
This sits well with the Ladin and Venetian form above and also with the Lombard form _lögia_, but not so with the Corsican and Sardinian forms.
The source I have used suggests as an alternative explanation that these forms might derive instead from Latin _illuvies_ through a form _*luvia,_ as somebody above has already suggested.
(Source: Lessico Zoologico Popolare della Provincia di Cremona. pag. 70
You can find the pdf here: http://bibliotecadigitale.provincia.cremona.it/monografie/download/monografia10_basso.pdf ).


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## Sardokan1.0

I've found a possible explanation, in Sardinian dictionaries I've found a similar word :

*Lùscia *or *Lùssia *= round granary made of braided straw or reeds, also known in Sardinian as "órriu" (Latin "Horreum")

This word in Sardinian language it's also used as synonymous of *round / fat*

Example : Cussa fèmina est una lùscia, no si pòdet mancu mòvere = That woman is a "lùscia", she can't even move

for some reason the ancients associated the word for *round granary* to *fat *and subsequently to the *sow*
_
Lùscia = round / fat = sow_


A word similar to Lùscia is present in French as "Huche" (chest, trunk, coffer; coffin) in English as "Hutch" (storage chest) from medieval Latin "Hutica" (chest, box)

hutica


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## magosil79

Sardokan, I think you are conflating two different words (I have checked this Logudorese dictionary Vocabolario Sardo-Logudorese / Italiano di Pietro Casu):
-on the one side you have _lóvia_ meaning 'sow' that might be related or not to similar words with the same meaning in a completely different geographical area. Namely Ladin and Venetian. The etymology of this word is not clear.
-and then you have the words you mention above _lùscia_ and _lùssia, _meaning 'a large basket made of straw and reeds'. This word then can be used figurately to indicate a fat person, the same way you can say in Italian _quella donna è una bótte _(literally in English 'that woman is a barrel'.) And this word can be derived from latin _hutica_.


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## dragonseven

Penyafort said:


> Yet I can't think of any word coming from that _illuviem_.


Sí, è la piú probabile; però non escluderei un incrocio tra _illúviem_ («sozzura, sudiciume»; ma anche dal lat. _il__lúvies_ «straripamento, sozzura» deriva illúvie) e _Allelúja _(inteso come «giulivo, ilare, gioioso, festoso» --pensando alle origini di questa, che era propria del periodo pasquale, quando si poteva mangiare anche spropositatamente una volta finita la quaresima).


magosil79 said:


> I have found another possible explanation (of course it's an hypothesis):
> it could come from a latin form *_lulia_, a feminine form of *_luljus _from Latin _julius_ 'July'.
> Implying the name (_scrofa_) _lulia_, meaning a sow that has a litter of piglets in July.
> This hypothesis could be corroborated by the name for July and sow in some Venetian dialects:
> In Venetian dialect: _lugio _(July) and _lugia _(sow) and in another variety _lujo_ (July) and _luja_ (sow).
> This sits well with the Ladin and Venetian form above and also with the Lombard form _lögia_, but not so with the Corsican and Sardinian forms.


 In effetti, qualcosa potrebbe c'entrare pure con l'angl. _Júly_: da Giúlio (lat. _Július_) Cesare.
Il quale ha una chiara assonanza con «loglio, gioglio» (pianta il cui frutto inquina, sporca in modo "malefico" le qualità del grano), «giúlivo» (festante, lieto) e «lúgio» (sul lat. _lúrco_, ghiottone).
Un altro riferimento per «lòia» (che spiega un po' la connessione tra il senso di sozzura e quello di mescolanza).
Inoltre, nel milanese, esisteva «lóa» (dicesi anche «lóva, lovèssa») che indicava la «lúpa» ma, in senso figurato, anche il «mangione», la «diluvione» e la «divoratrice». Non solo, questo termine («lóa, lóva») significava pure «meretrice».
Pure per il termine «troja» (v. pag. 452 completa) troviamo delle affinità semantiche con i precedenti.
Ora, abbiamo dei termini simiglianti che indicano festa, felicità, gioia, ghiottonería (golosità avida), bambagia, esageratezza e che, in alcuni dei loro significati figurati, finiscono col significare sudiciume, sozzura e puttana (famoso in Italia un “coro contro” da stadio in offesa ai romani e alle romane che, sulle note di una famosa canzone di Heather Parisi, _Cicale_, i “tifosi” cantano le seguenti parole: «E le romane: puttane, puttane, puttane; e i loro figli: conigli, conigli, conigli. (in _loop_)». Puttane, perché figlie della Lupa (romana); conigli, perché “figli di puttana” che prima fanno danni e poi scappano per il terrore di cosa gli possa capitare per le loro gesta).

Come si sia passati dalla lupa alla scrofa non so, ma mi è pur facile immaginarlo dati i suddetti riferimenti.


Tutto ciò è solo una mia ricerca da prendersi con le pinze, niente di serio!


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