# Concept of idleness in English proverbs



## Razor

I wonder if the concept of idleness or laziness explicitly expressed in English proverbs and sayings compared to other cultures? I'm writing 
a graduate thesis and am at a great loss for relevant information on the subject. To make matters worse, I can't know about the attitude 
of Britons to idleness in everyday life, history and their identity. Is it possible to make a statement about English idleness in the national 
identity in positive respects? I doubt if there are any mini works or studies on the way the above messages are conveyed in English culture. 
Help me if you can. All comments, suggestions and reflections of both natives and other people are welcome!


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## blancalaw

Razor, just thought I'd help clear up the question a little to help others clearly understand what you are asking.



			
				Razor said:
			
		

> I wonder if the concept of idleness or laziness is explicitly expressed in English proverbs and wise sayings compared to other cultures? I'm writing a graduate thesis and I need relevant information on the subject. To make matters worse, I can't find anything about the attitude
> of Britons towards idleness in their history, identity and everyday life. Is it possible to make a positive statement about English idleness in their national
> identity? I'm not sure if there are any mini works or studies about this the  conveyed in English culture.
> Help me if you can. All comments, suggestions and reflections from both natives and other people are welcome!



I am from the USA and any proverb in English that I can think of about laziness expresses the disadvantages of being lazy. For example
Don't put off til tomorrow what you can do today.
Don't miss the boat.

Also there are a number from proverbs.

As far as proverbs that encourage laziness? I have never heard of one.


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## GenJen54

blancalaw said:
			
		

> I am from the USA and any proverb in English that I can think of about laz*i*ness expresses the disadvantages of being lazy. For example
> Don't put off til tomorrow what you can do today.
> Don't miss the boat.
> 
> Also there are a number from proverbs.
> 
> As far as proverbs that encourage laz*i*ness?


A few minor corrections. 



			
				razor said:
			
		

> I wonder if the concept of idleness or laziness explicitly expressed in English proverbs and sayings compared to other cultures?


Could you please provide clarification on this point? Are you saying there are _more_ expressions and proverbs about laziness in English than in other languages, or are you stating there are fewer? 

Many proverbs regarding laziness probably have some root in religion, particularly Catholicism, where "sloth" is considered one of the seven deadly sins.


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## JazzByChas

Razor said:
			
		

> Is it possible to make a statement about English idleness in the national identity in positive respects? I doubt if there are any mini works or studies on the way the above messages are conveyed in English culture.
> Help me if you can. All comments, suggestions and reflections of both natives and other people are welcome!


 
All I can think of, as far as positive aspects of idleness are:

1) "You must stop and smell the roses..." (Take time to relax and enjoy the simpler things in life)

2) "The hurrier I go, the behinder I get." (Sometimes it is not profitable to be in a hurry.)

3) "Take it easy...don't let the sound of your own wheels make you crazy." (from "Take it Easy" by The Eagles) (Don't be so immersed in the craziness of life that it makes you lose your sanity.)


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## panjandrum

Razor said:
			
		

> I wonder if the concept of idleness or laziness explicitly expressed in English proverbs and sayings compared to other cultures? [...]!


Can you give us some examples of the English proverbs that explicitly express the concept of idleness or laziness?


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## cuchuflete

If you are seeking comparison with other cultures, why don't you help all of us out by posting what you have so far for both English and other languages?

Also, please bear in mind that this is a discussion forum.  We are not designed to be a resource for academic research, other than as a consequence of a careful reading of our conversations.  

If you wish to stimulate a useful discussion, please posit a thesis, together with some evidence to support it.


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## Isotta

While this is not necessarily proverb analysis, I suggest you look at the Puritan stance on idleness if your thesis allows you to talk about America. I'd say that people in the United States are quite uncomfortable with the notion of idleness and vagrancy, which I imagine is one of the lasting influences of the Puritans, and not so much from the Catholic church. I sometimes sensed an occasional general contempt towards people who asked for money and didn't work. You don't see this in China, for example--it's apparently good luck to give beggars money. Thus I wonder if people react so negatively in part because of the Puritan ideal that one must use one's abilities--or God-given gifts--to do good works. Idle hands are the devil's playthings. I bet Jonathan Edwards would have a thing or two to say about it. 

In Britain I think this sentiment is fainter, though idleness is portrayed negatively in literature, Thomas Carlyle ("The Everlasting Yea"), to name just one.

Another proverb: the early bird catches the worm.

Z.


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## Vanda

What about this one:
 'all work and no play makes John a dull boy' ?


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## Edwin

Isotta said:
			
		

> While this is not necessarily proverb analysis, I suggest you look at the Puritan stance on idleness if your thesis allows you to talk about America. I'd say that people in the United States are quite uncomfortable with the notion of idleness and vagrancy, which I imagine is one of the lasting influences of the Puritans, and not so much from the Catholic church.



Disdain for idleness comes perhaps not only from religion.  I found the following quotation:

_Shun idleness.  It is a rust that attaches itself to the most brilliant metals_.  ~Voltaire

And I seem to recall that Voltaire wasn't very fond of religion. 

A Google search on *quotations: idle* will produce quite a lot of such quotations by people of all kinds.


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## I.C.

Sloth – one of the seven deadly sins.
http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html


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## Isotta

Edwin said:
			
		

> Disdain for idleness comes perhaps not only from religion.  I found the following quotation:
> 
> _Shun idleness.  It is a rust that attaches itself to the most brilliant metals_.  ~Voltaire
> 
> And I seem to recall that Voltaire wasn't very fond of religion.
> 
> A Google search on *quotations: idle* will produce quite a lot of such quotations by people of all kinds.


You see no connection whatsoever between the Puritan work ethic and contempt towards idleness?

We can find all sorts of dissenting quotations from men of letters and so on. When I feel I am not working hard enough, I am sometimes heartened by this one by Montaigne, who says it's ok to be a slacker:
We are great fools. "He has spent his life in idleness," we say; " I have done nothing today." What, have you not lived? That is not only the fundamental but the most illustrious of your occupations. 

It's a good passage, continues (you can find the rest of it through Google). He also said, "All other things, ruling, hording, building, are only little appendages and props, at most."

Thus I do not understand your referencing Voltaire--did you mean that you don't see a connection between the Puritans and contempt or discomfort towards idleness in the United States? 

Anyway, it would be an interesting avenue to explore. I remember perusing books on the matter some years ago.

Z.


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## cuchuflete

> _Shun idleness.  It is a rust that attaches itself to the most brilliant metals_.  ~Voltaire




While striving to shun idleness, I pondered about the most brilliant metals, which are non-ferrous, and don't rust.

Do you have the original in French?  It might just be a gilded and/or tarnished translation.


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## Isotta

Looks pretty accurate to me:
Fuyez l'indolente paresse; c'est la rouille attachée aux plus brillants métaux.

Lapse of concentration. Either that or the old boy was already getting a bit rusty.

Z.


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## cuchuflete

Well, in English, it usually means oxidation of ferrous metal, but a secondary or tertiary meaning does allow for oxidation of other metals....but it takes a little brassiness to use it that way.

my nickel
Cuchu


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## I.C.

Either way the quote can't tell us the cultural origin of the notion that idleness is inherently bad or a vice. It also doesn't tell from where or what Voltaire derived his own opinion.


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## cuchuflete

He that riseth late, must trot all day, and shall scarce overtake his business at night. --Ben Franklin


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## Edwin

Isotta said:
			
		

> Thus I do not understand your referencing Voltaire--did you mean that you don't see a connection between the Puritans and contempt or discomfort towards idleness in the United States?
> 
> Anyway, it would be an interesting avenue to explore. I remember perusing books on the matter some years ago.



I mentioned Voltaire's statement opposing idleness as a counter-example to the (strawman) proposition that dislike of idleness comes from the Puritans.  I haven't studied such matters, but I would be surprise to find the attitude more prevalent in the US than in other places. Without a sufficient supply of human beings who work hard, we wouldn't be where we are now.  I would be interested to know of a language which has no word for lazy and no proverbs denouncing idleness. 

Another point: since "Americans" are such a motley crew--such a mixture of cultures--generalizing about us is difficult. And I'm sure the same holds for almost any country--even a homogeneous society like Japan. 

You know the expression "work hard and play hard".  I wonder if playing hard can be construed as idleness?


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## JazzByChas

Razor said:
			
		

> Is it possible to make a statement about English idleness in the national
> identity in positive respects?


 
Unless I mis-understand Razor's original intent, a positive aspect of idleness would circumvent the USA's Puritan outlook on "idleness." 

A couple of more thoughts:

"All things in moderation." Now this may not reflect "idleness" per se, but it does reflect "taking it easy." I think it not only applies to consumption, but to our work ethic, as well...(or at least should, in this highly industrialized, work-a-holic society we inhabit)

"Good things come to those who wait." This may not be purely "idleness" either, but it does imply "slowing down" a bit in pursuit of the "American Dream" of material gain. It also applies in the character-building aspects of life, as in waiting to gain maturity before attempting something like, drinking, driving, entering into a contract, and getting married...as examples.


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## la reine victoria

One from the Bible (Book of Proverbs).

'Go to the ant, though sluggard!  Consider her ways and be wise.'

A 'sluggard' is an idle person, whereas 'ants' work hard most of the year, gathering food to store in their nests for the winter. 

Just off to see the ants! 

LRV


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## Benjy

i don't think any proverb is ever really going to actively encourage laziness. i mean, proverbs are usually proffered as nuggets of wisdom from the old to the young, the wise to the foolish, the hard working to the lazy...

in any society getting without doing is not a healthy thing and certainly isn't sustainable so why it would be encouraged is anyone's guess.

as for my opinion on the subject and most favourite proverb of all time:

no pain, no pain


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## Edwin

Benjy said:
			
		

> i don't think any proverb is ever really going to actively encourage laziness. i mean, proverbs are usually proffered as nuggets of wisdom from the old to the young, the wise to the foolish, the hard working to the lazy...



One can find those who advocate a certain amount of taking it easy. For example there is the essay by Bertrand Russell In Praise of Idleness . In the first paragraph he says, "in countries which do not enjoy Mediterranean sunshine idleness is more difficult, and a great public propaganda will be required to inaugurate it. I hope that, after reading the following pages, the leaders of the YMCA will start a campaign to induce good young men to do nothing. If so, I shall not have lived in vain."


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## I.C.

Razor said:
			
		

> I wonder if the concept of idleness or laziness explicitly expressed in English proverbs and sayings compared to other cultures? I'm writing
> a graduate thesis and am at a great loss for relevant information on the subject. To make matters worse, I can't know about the attitude
> of Britons to idleness in everyday life, history and their identity.


 Now, I do suspect there is stuff to be found. Sure you are not interested in concepts of “leisure”, too?
For instance, you could look for discussions of or comments on “otium” or “schole” by educated Englishmen, I would guess.

Here is a link to “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism”, a book written by an awfully obscure guy named Max Weber, there might also have been a reception in English speaking countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism


Here’s something on idleness by Robert Louis Stevenson: http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/s/stevenson/robert_louis/s848vi/chapter3.html
From there:


> Extreme busyness, whether at school or college, kirk or market, is a symptom of deficient vitality; and a faculty for idleness implies a catholic appetite and a strong sense of personal identity. There is a sort of dead-alive, hackneyed people about, who are scarcely conscious of living except in the exercise of some conventional occupation.


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## la reine victoria

I like the Bard's usage of 'love-in-idleness' = pansy or heartsease.

In 'A Midsummer Night's Dream', Oberon, in an act of revenge on his wife Titania (Queen of the Fairies) instructs his helper Puck to squeeze the juice from the pansy and drop it on to Titania's sleeping eyelids.  This would ensure that she would be smitten in love with the first person she saw on waking.  As it happens, the first person she sees is one 'Nick Bottom' (a weaver) wearing an ass's head.

Shakespeare says of the pansy 'And maidens call it love-in-idleness'.

I like this!  Just off to find a pansy, whose juice I shall drop on the sleeping eyelids of someone I much admire.  I'll make sure he stays lockedi in my house, of course. (And keep my cat out of sight!).  


LRV


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## seosamh

My very practising Catholic (and Irish) mother was aware of the virtues of both work and of idleness. Depending on her mood she might quote either the saying of Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin, and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these" (Matthew 6), which she interpreted in support of constructive or contemplative idleness as opposed to fruitless busy-ness; or the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25), through which she encouraged us children not to waste our gifts but make them work. I have no idea if this correlates precisely with the American Puritan tradition but seems to me pretty characteristic of the Catholic tradition in the Anglophone world.


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## Razor

You know, I’ve learned a lot about the Russian concept of being lazy but I still don’t know for sure if there is any possibility to communicate nuances in the use of IDLENESS as cognitive units in the English language paremiological corpus. Could you help me with this? The dictionaries I’ve consulted convey almost the same understanding and meaning of the words, specifically IDLENESS. A number of celebrated Russian poets and prose writers responded differently to the idea of being lazy investing it with a range of subtle connotations at various milestones, but I’ve failed to trace the evolution of the word “idleness” in English proverbs except for considering it a somewhat different category. At least, I lean towards the assumption that the view of being lazy in England and Russia is similar, though limited to certain aspects. The Russian language, however, seems to me a more copious recorder of proverbs and sayings representing idleness/laziness from diverse angles in the XVIII, XIX centuries. Is there any word within the synonymic range of lazy-related adjectives that stands for an exemplar of virtue or a source of inspiration, romance or mental repose [otdochnovenie dushi] as treated by Pushkin in his poems? I know that some English writers have touched upon idleness in their works: Lord Chesterfield, Isaac Watts, Jane Austen, Thomas Carlyle, E.M.Cioran, Bishop Richard Cumberland, John Dryden, Jerome K. Jerome, Jenny Joseph, Don Marquis, Will Self, Derek Walcott, Edward Young, and Samuel Johnson. Of course, the Bible is no exception. What about the English folklore then? The idea of laziness should be universal for any culture, but only speakers are more responsive to associations established with words and expressions, I presume. Am I right?


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## Razor

Let there be no Oblomov in other parts of the English speaking world, which is quite arguable to me, but there should some sort of a 'folk hero', so to speak, that is emblematic of the national identity in terms of concepts people live by, namely the idea of being idle in proverbs. Isn't it so?


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## Razor

Still, how do the English ordinarily identify IDLENESS in their daily routine and literary traditions? No folklore symbol that is historically typical of England? I can't believe it. I once happened to read a story about Lazy Jack. Is the character depicted in that book associated with the idea of laziness/idleness in England with youth?
What about the English painter and sculptor Frederick Leighton's bronze-cast "Sluggard"?
Russian literature is rich in connotations and associations that a constellation of lyric poets and writers attached to the state being lazy/idle. Batushkov was the first to represent laziness as an indispensable engine of poetic insipration. Vyasemsky typifies a dressing-gown clad cultured personality pacing back and forth about his room and musing. Krylov was often described by his pen fellows and servants as sprawling out on the sofa and so on. 
According to Wikipedia, what is considered laziness varies depending on cultural/societal context and magnitude, but it is generally considered a negative quality, as in SLOTH. Laziness can be considered an _EXAGGERATION_ of the natural instinct to do nothing that makes people get _HEALTHY_ rest. 
-What associations usually accompany the word IDLENESS in England with regard to proverbs and sayings?
--Is there any "national character" that is typical of English proverbs or fairy tales? 
-Is laziness/idleness condemned/tolerated or sympathized with in English proverbs?
- Do English speakers _differentiate_ between the notions of being IDLE/LAZY/SLUGGARD/LOAFER/?
- Can the concept of idleness be regarded as one of _KEY_ English traits?


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## Razor

One more thing I fail to grasp. 
Wikipedia provides the following definiton of SLOTH. 
Sloth (_Latin, acedia_)
Sloth (_apathy, indifference_) —
Apathy, idleness, and wastefulness of time. Laziness is particularly condemned because others must work harder to make up for it. _Cowardice or irresponsibility_. Abandonment, _especially of God_. _Sloth is a state of equilibrium (why so?)_: one does not produce much, one does not consume much. *Dante* wrote that sloth is the "failure to love God with all one's heart, all one's mind and all one's soul". _Associated with goats and the color light blue_. The _childish of the two misplaced childhood_.
*Does the defintion really correspond with how native speakers of USA and England feel about it? Why is it "associated with GOATS and the COLOR LIGHT BLUE"?*


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## lizzeymac

Razor said:
			
		

> Why is it "associated with GOATS and the COLOR LIGHT BLUE"?
> 
> I am American, not English, so my folktales are not relevant, but I had a Catholic education & can help with the goats & blue.
> 
> In the early Middle Ages the Catholic Church assigned a representative animal & a color to each of the Seven Deadly Sins - and to other significant concepts -  as a teaching aide, basically.  Most people were illiterate, many learned the stories of the Bible as simplified parables with symbolic characters of good & evil and from the artwork in their church. The church building itself was storybook of paintings, carvings, stained glass windows & statues showing Bible stories.  Most religious art uses symbols & colors to identify the figures & stories pictured.  A simple example a painting of a knight fighting a dragon - that is St. George - we wouldn't recognize his face would we?
> 
> 
> There was a painting of "Sloth" used in my catechism book  -  a farm scene with fat man sitting in front of his farmhouse drinking beer - not working - surrounded by a herd of goats that are eating the crops in his field and wandering into his house & eating the food in the kitchen.  The farmyard is a mess, tools scattered on the ground, the house needs repairs. His emaciated wife & daughters are in the village begging for food from passers-by.  This painting illustrates Sloth (the goats) devouring/destroying his farm & his life. Because of his laziness, his wife & daughters are starving & driven to beg in the streets.
> 
> -


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## Razor

lizzeymac said:
			
		

> Razor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it "associated with GOATS and the COLOR LIGHT BLUE"?
> There was a painting of "Sloth" used in my catechism book - a farm scene with fat man sitting in front of his farmhouse drinking beer - not working - surrounded by a herd of goats that are eating the crops in his field and wandering into his house & eating the food in the kitchen. The farmyard is a mess, tools scattered on the ground, the house needs repairs. His emaciated wife & daughters are in the village begging for food from passers-by. This painting illustrates Sloth (the goats) devouring/destroying his farm & his life. Because of his laziness, his wife & daughters are starving & driven to beg in the streets.
> 
> -
> 
> 
> 
> Still, I don't understand some points. Why do goats precisely typify Sloth? Why not other animals?
> What about the BLUE color? Was the choice arbitrary within a range of colours to be attributed to a sin as was sloth?
> Is the term SLOTH somehow different from IDLENESS or LAZINESS?
> Is the scene by which you've exemplified the concept TYPICAL of American folklore in terms of understanding the nation?
Click to expand...


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## lizzeymac

black=Razor
Still, I don't understand some points. Why do goats precisely typify Sloth? Why not other animals?
What about the BLUE color? Was the choice arbitrary within a range of colours to be attributed to a sin as was sloth? 


Hello - 
I do not know why they made these particular choices - my teacher was not fond of questions starting with "why."  The animal associations for other sins are more easily understood - pigs=gluttony, etc.
The Catholic Church has a few websites - have you looked there?  
This note was in Wikipedia: "Later iconography of the Sins was derived from the descriptions of battles between the Virtues and Vices in the "Psychomachia", a poem by 4th-century poet Prudentius."  Perhaps the poem might be a source for you?
I do not know if these Sin/animal & color associations are the same in Protestantism - you could look at the websites for the Protestant denominations.  


Is the term SLOTH somehow different from IDLENESS or LAZINESS? 

In my mind, Sloth has a different emotional value than Idleness or Laziness.  
I only think of the word Sloth as one of the 7 Deadly Sins (or the animal).   I can't imagine I would use it in casual conversation, it's too archaic.
Idleness is poetic & gentle, I associate it with youth, an idle person might grow up to be more productive or creative.
To me, "Laziness" is a fairly bad quality in a person - shortsighted, selfish and inconsiderate, perhaps a permanent character flaw.


Is the scene by which you've exemplified the concept TYPICAL of American folklore in terms of understanding the nation?

No, it is an illustration from a late 20th century Roman Catholic religous textbook, an example of Catholic instructive art - this particular painting was Dutch, the 1500s I think, imitation Bruegel.

As several people have said, it is extremely unlikely that Sloth or Laziness or Idleness would appear as a positive concept in American folklore - I can't imagine it.  Hard work, thriftiness, entreprenuerialism, self-sufficiency, industriousness, never quitting, the small persevering over the great, having faith in yourself - these are the more likely concepts.  Sloth would be in our folktales only as an example of what is bad.

I skimmed the section of Pushkin you mentioned, I think I understand what you mean by national character & concept now. 
America is a mix of so many cultures that I don't think you will find a single national character in the sense you appear to mean.  Our folktales are also a mix from many nationalites.  Please remember we are a young country in comparison to Europe - we are a nation of explorers, settlers, & immigrants, so the folktales that have become most popular & well known are those that reinforce the traits needed to succeed in a new wilderness, a new country, a new life. 

This is a very interesting thread, thank you for starting it.


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## Razor

Quite unusual for me to learn that the concept I've undertaken to explore through the alembic of native speakers' associations and thoughts is in some way 'animated'. These allusions to the Bible and symbolic beasts that account for the existence of the word sloth, I get it right, contribute to my knowledge of culture tremednously. Thank you, Lizzeymac, once again! You've so helpful. You comments are so educational. The reason why I'm asking so many a question is that I have nowhere to turn to for exhaustive information on the concept I've made up my mind to delve into. There's a saying that dictionary is just a floating top of the iceberg (i.e. the given language), while one has to reach for the depths in order to develop an understanding of the speaker's attitudes, feelings and perceptions of the community they live in. So, you, Lizzeymac, or somebody else at his forum would be so kind as to provide comments on the above questions I've posted, I would be grateful. ​*Thus, as far as I understand, the concept of IDLENESS is always condemned in the English-speaking world unlike the Russian awareness, isn't it?*


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## maxiogee

Razor said:
			
		

> lizzeymac said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is the term SLOTH somehow different from IDLENESS or LAZINESS?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me, yes!
> The seven deadly sins are reputed to be Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed and Sloth.
> 
> Sloth            is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.
Click to expand...


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## lizzeymac

Hi again - 

You are very welcome, I am glad to have been helpful.

Have your read "Aesops Fables"?   
These fables were used in school when I was young as a way to teach ethics without referring to religion.  A few forer@s have already referred to them.
My parents read them to me as bedtime stories. These fables are as ingrained in me as any religious lessons I learned as a child so I guess that makes them a part of my family's culture or identity. In my family, an illustrated edition of this book is a traditional gift to a child who is learning to read.

Animals are the characters in these stories.  Many stories are about idleness, not planning for the future, greed, selfishness. There are more than 650 fables but they are very very short & easy to read.  Many proverbs have their source in these fables.

Here is a link to an online library that lists each fable separately plus a brief biography of Aesop.  http://www.literature.org/authors/aesop/fables/

-


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## Razor

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Razor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me, yes!
> The seven deadly sins are reputed to be Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed and Sloth.
> 
> Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I see no distinction between IDLENESS and SLOTH, then. Lazzeymac for some reason associates the word IDLENESS with something gentle, poetic and youthful. But no dictionary suggests that!
> Your understanding of the word SLOTH does not illuminate the true sense of it, I think. Laziness is also construed as a general disposition to doing nothing. Idleness implies a disinclination to activity either.
> Anyway, the question that has been tormenting my mind is whether the concept of IDLENESS or LAZINESS deeply rooted in the English awareness or not? I'm trying to compare it with the Russian treatment of the same concept in proverbs. That's it. Nothing more.
> *Is it possible to assert that IDLENESS is typical of English mind in general or are the native speakers in question an industrious and goal-oriented people*?
> 
> *By the way, why do English people say IDLENESS is the mother of all evils*? I mean why precisely this word attached to the proverb in lieu of LAZINESS as a synonymic dominant? "*Idle*" is a nuance of the essential state of being lazy. Isn't it?​
Click to expand...


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## Razor

lizzeymac said:
			
		

> Hi again -
> 
> You are very welcome, I am glad to have been helpful.
> 
> Have your read "Aesops Fables"?
> These fables were used in school when I was young as a way to teach ethics without referring to religion. A few forer@s have already referred to them.
> My parents read them to me as bedtime stories. These fables are as ingrained in me as any religious lessons I learned as a child so I guess that makes them a part of my family's culture or identity. In my family, an illustrated edition of this book is a traditional gift to a child who is learning to read.
> 
> Animals are the characters in these stories. Many stories are about idleness, not planning for the future, greed, selfishness. There are more than 650 fables but they are very very short & easy to read. Many proverbs have their source in these fables.
> -


 
Lizzeymac, you've been very much helpful!!! Please, consider the *above-mentioned questions*! No one seems to know about or feel like considering them. I'm in need of having them answered, because the topic is quite difficult, and dictionaries are of no avail to me. I've tried all I was able to find and explore. 
 
Even now, by the way, I don't get *why the GOAT typifies SLOTH*? Goats do not appear so lazy to me. Collins Cobuild cites sloth as an animal from Central and South America. Sloths live in trees and move very slowly. *Why GOATS*? 
 
Something about *SLOTH*. Collins Cobuild treats this lexeme as laziness, especially with regard to work. (_FORMAL_). With regard to WORK? So what about LAZINESS? Does a lazy man feel extremely enthusiastic about WORK? I'm at a loss. I mean it.


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## la reine victoria

Hi Razor,

*



Is it possible to assert that IDLENESS is typical of English mind in general or are the native speakers in question an industrious and goal-oriented people? 

By the way, why do English people say IDLENESS is the mother of all evils? I mean why precisely this word attached to the proverb in lieu of LAZINESS as a synonymic dominant? "Idle" is a nuance of the essential state of being lazy. Isn't it?

Click to expand...

* 
It is impossible to generalise on the question asked in the first quoted paragraph.   There are *idle* and *industrious* people of every nationality.  Speaking for the British I would say that our economic success in the world is indicative of an industrious nation.  However, we do have a large number of lazy people who have no intention of working - they are happy to live off state benefits, paid by the hard-working taxpayers.

"Idleness is the mother of all evils"  is not a standard proverb in Britain.  Rather - "(_The love of_) money is the root of all evil"  (Holy Bible: Timothy 6 v.10)   "The devil makes work for idle hands" is a well known proverb.
 
 
LRV


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## maxiogee

Razor said:
			
		

> Anyway, the question that has been tormenting my mind is whether the concept of IDLENESS or LAZINESS deeply rooted in the English awareness or not?



There is a concept known as "The Protestant work ethic" which Britons are presumed (at least by we Irish) to possess. There are many denigratory references in British culture to the do-nothing type. I cannot answer how deeply ingrained that might be.


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## lizzeymac

Razor said:
			
		

> Lizzeymac, you've been very much helpful!!! Please, consider the *above-mentioned questions*! No one seems to know about or feel like considering them. I'm in need of having them answered, because the topic is quite difficult, and dictionaries are of no avail to me. I've tried all I was able to find and explore.
> 
> Even now, by the way, I don't get *why the GOAT typifies SLOTH*? Goats do not appear so lazy to me. Collins Cobuild cites sloth as an animal from Central and South America. Sloths live in trees and move very slowly. *Why GOATS*?
> 
> Something about *SLOTH*. Collins Cobuild treats this lexeme as laziness, especially with regard to work. (_FORMAL_). With regard to WORK? So what about LAZINESS? Does a lazy man feel extremely enthusiastic about WORK? I'm at a loss. I mean it.



These associations were fixed & incorporated into Catholic doctrine hundreds of years before Europeans reached the interior of South America and discovered the sloth.  The poem Psychomachia (one source for these associations) was written around 400 AD. 
The tree sloth was named after the sin - not the other way around.  This fact should have been in any encyclopedia you consulted.

I have never heard of this "proverb" you believe to be common, nor is it listed in any any AE or BE reference books I own.
As LRV suggests "The devil makes work for idle hands" or the more Puritanical "Idle hands are the devil's playthings" are common proverbs.

I think I have exhuasted my store of information on the topic, being an American, as your interest is in English attitudes & culture.   
The English forer@s have provided a fair amount of infomation & opinion.   It seems you may need access to more reference materials & online electronic libraries to complete the research needed for your thesis.
-
-


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## Razor

maxiogee said:
			
		

> There is a concept known as "The Protestant work ethic" which Britons are presumed (at least by we Irish) to possess. There are many denigratory references in British culture to the do-nothing type. I cannot answer how deeply ingrained that might be.


 
Thus, is it *legitimate* to maintain that as long as there exists "Protestant work ethic" the concept of IDLENESS (or LAZINESS) represents one of *KEY* "components" of English identity (I'm driving at Wierzbiska's "_Understanding cultures through their key concepts_")? 
The topic at issue is whether the idea of being idle or lazy *ALWAYS* condemned in PROVERBS and WISE SAYINGS with regard to the EGNLISH? Do British people recognize the "*corrupt influence*" of IDLENESS (_or loafing, dawdling about_) on human mind with respect for *folklore and common people's lives*? That's where my interest in the issue posed lies.  Your comments are ever valuable for my cultural development as things I do in my life.


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## luno

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> However, we do have a large number of lazy people who have no intention of working - they are happy to live off state benefits, paid by the hard-working taxpayers.


Perhaps you're talking about the royal family and their cronies...

Razor, I think this page will be of interest to you: proz.com/topic/47583


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## Razor

So that it is clear what exactly I'm working on, I'll extract all the proverbs and wise sayings out of my thesis to specify the course of thought. 
Idle folk have the least leisure. 
The hardest work is to do nothing.
The tongue of idle persons is never idle.
He that will not work shall not eat.
An idle brain is the devil's workshop.
A lazy sheep thinks its wool heavy.
Lazy folks take the most pains.
A lazy man is the beggar's brother.
Standing pools gather filth.
Not to advance is to retreat.
He who would catch the fish must not mind getting wet.
No pains, no gains.
Nothing venture, nothing win.
No sweet, no sweat.
A horse that will not carry a saddle must have not oats. 
No song, no supper (_Why *song*? Was there any custom to sing before or after having supper in Old England? Did English people use to pray before they partook of the meal prepared_?)
No mill, no meal.
Business is the salt of life.
Idleness is the mother of all evils. (Now I know that this is not standard in Britain)
Idle folk lack no excuses.
Better wear out shoes than sheets.
A cat in gloves catches no mice.
The race is got by the winning.
The dog that trots about finds a bone.
He that would eat the fruit must climb th tree.
He that would serach for pearls must dive for them.
All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
Business before pleasure.
Work done, have your fun.
In the morning mountains, in the evening fountains (_Do you know the etymology of this saying? Why does the bright part of the day typifies, if I may say so,  a geographical term, whereas the closing portion of the diurnal cycle is a representation of a source of youth and freshness_?).
 
I would like you to share your thoughts and ideas on some new points that I confronted to find myself at a loss again. Here are they are:
 
1. Are the proverbs about idleness and dislike of labour somehow or closely related to the *daily routine of agricultural workers or rural environment*? As far as the Russian counterparts are concerned, such connection is pursued without ambiguity. 
2. Does the concept of IDLENESS (or LAZINESS) typify more of a *spiritual or physical condition*? Which is most particular to the English? 
3. Has idleness (or laziness) ever been *extolled or eulogized* in the history of English literature? I've never read _Byron's Idle Hours_, but the name of his poem (is it that?) sounds as if great favour is bestowed upon the bless of being idle or maybe indolent. Am I right? Did English romanticists differentiate *between idleness or laziness*? What do you think? 
4. Does the concept of idleness indicate solely *indulgence or denunciation* with regard to those who, say, _loathed to extend efforts to plough the corn field or grind wheat into flour_? 
5. Does the concept of idleness possess *any philosophical or ecclesiastical connotations*? I remember someone on this forum mentioning _Wordsworth's or Coleridge's contemplative response_ to expanses of verdure or 'elemental' tranquility. I might misinterepret the previous authors' messages. Sorry if so. 
The Russian interpretation of laziness, for instance, is sometimes reduced to the implication of intellectual wisdom. In a celebrated work of literature by Gogol ('The Marriage'), a certain character suddenly ceases to act energetically (I speak of a general idea of activity) and in the thick of roar and hectic arrangements he sinks into the ontological purpose of being and doing, which might seduct his mind to experiencing an indifferent idleness, so to speak.
6. Why idleness *is not associated with animal representatives* like sloth? It's a personality flaw, isn't it? So, the Church must have condemned the state of idle pursuits, true? 
7. Would it be correct to maintain that English proverbs about idleness and laziness *constantly echo with animal images or personfications*? I've encountered no proper name that would be characteristic of English idleness or laziness. _Russian paremiology abounds in buccolic names with regard to popular sayings treating labour as a virtue and 'anti-lethargic' remedy_. 
8. Does the concept of idleness *play a significant part in traditional English culture*? I once bumped into an article (to be exact, it was a literature course student's program) in the Google advanced search. It dealt with the meaning of idleness in Japanese and English cultures. The first paragraph immediately referred to the great role that idleness plays both in English and Japanese culture. 
 
I would be over the moon if you could answer and comment on some of the questions above. It's extremely important to me to reinforce my exertions and research with a few refreshing ideas.


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## emma42

I do think that many English people recognise the "corrupt influence" of idleness.  However, it can lead to unfair accusations of idleness heaped upon, for instance, ALL unemployed people or people in receipt of sickness benefits.  This kind of attitude is typified in such newspapers as The Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph.

I remember the uproar from some quarters when a Government Minister in the 1980s (Norman Tebbit) implied that all unemployed people were lazy (this is my interpretation) and that, when he was a young man, he "got on his bike" and looked for work.  This phrase has become notorious/famous, depending on your point of view.

Many people in England are deeply resentful of the fact that they pay taxes to keep lazy people in state benefits, but often the number of "cheats" is exaggerated by the right wing press, in my opinion.


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## emma42

There is a phrase "To sing for your supper". I think this must come from the days of travelling minstrels, who were often paid with a good meal.


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## Razor

luno said:
			
		

> Razor, I think this page will be of interest to you: proz.com/topic/47583


Luno, you will be suprised to know that it was me who had started the thread you're referring to. I kept asking questions and was eager to learn something new, but no-one has responded since then.


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## Razor

emma42 said:
			
		

> There is a phrase "To sing for your supper". I think this must come from the days of travelling minstrels, who were often paid with a good meal.


Emma, million thanks to you! I appreciate it so much that you're willing to share with me some of your ideas.


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## rsweet

Idle hands are the Devil's playground.


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## maxiogee

Razor said:
			
		

> The topic at issue is whether the idea of being idle or lazy *ALWAYS* condemned in PROVERBS and WISE SAYINGS with regard to the EGNLISH?



I think you expect too much of us. We cannot be expected to know all the relevant proverbs/adages.


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## mythz

to benjy:
   do you mean "no pain no gain"


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## la reine victoria

luno said:
			
		

> Perhaps you're talking about the royal family and their cronies...


 

Uncalled for remark!

The Royal family carries out *3000 engagements* each year - hardly idle.

What's more - the *£132.9 million* profit of the Crown Estate for the year ending March 31st, 2000 *was paid to the Exchequer for the benefit of taxpayers.* This sum far exceeds the total cost of the monarchy.

Please acquaint yourself with the facts.  The Royal family is contributing towards the cost of maintaining the lazy, work-shy of Britain.

So     Luno.


LRV


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## la reine victoria

Another idiom for your list Razor -

"The early bird catches the worm."**

This means that people who are up and working early in the morning will be rewarded with things that the lazy lie-a'beds will miss.

**I think its meaning derives from the fact that the early-morning grass is wet with dew.  This makes the soil softer and the worms can come more easily to the surface.  

I believe the blackbird is the first bird to sing in the morning.  Where I live I hear them singing before sunrise.  Then, when it is light, I see them pulling up worms from the ground.

So they are "early birds" and they "catch worms". 




> In the morning mountains, in the evening fountains


 
To me this means that there is work to be done in the morning (not literally mountains to climb - just plenty of things to do).  The work may continue until evening, when one can then relax and unwind by a (figurative) soothing fountain - glass of wine in hand.  A pleasant reward for a day's work well done.

I'm so lazy my life is all fountains and no mountains.  Well, the "mountains" are there but I tend to ignore them.


LRV


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## la reine victoria

. 





> Does the concept of idleness indicate solely *indulgence or denunciation* with regard to those who, say, _loathed to extend efforts to plough the corn field or grind wheat into flour_?


​ 
 
There is an English nursery rhyme about "Little Boy Blue" who should have been looking after the crops but chose, instead, to fall asleep under a haystack.  He was a hayward or "hedge warden" (Middle Ages) whose job it was to make sure that livestock didn't get into the fields where crops grew.  His symbol of office was a horn, which he would blow to alert peoples' attention if the animals managed to get into the fields

"Little Boy Blue, come blow up your horn
The sheep's in the meadow, the cow's in the corn.
Where's the boy who looks after the sheep?
He's under the haystack fast asleep."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I can't think of any references to lazy millers or ploughmen.

Grays "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard" tells us of the "weary ploughman" -

"The curfew tolls the knell of parting day,
The lowing herd winds slowly o'er the lea,
*The ploughman homeward plods his weary way,*
And leaves the world to darkness and to me."

All agricultural labour was very physically demanding before the advent of modern machinery.  Obviously there would have been those who were reluctant to do their fair share of the work.  However, in the small communities of old, which were self-sufficient, the lazy would surely have been punished by their fellows.  No ploughing of fields and sowing of grain, no milling of wheat into flour = no bread.  Lazy animal husbandry = no increase in herds and flocks = no meat.

Even today, at hay-making time, everyone has to lend a hand.  My sons had many a good time in Ireland helping their uncle, aunt, cousins and neighbours to "bring in the hay" - essential for feeding the animals in winter.

*Emma *has mentioned "sing for your supper".

Another nursery rhyme is -

Little Tommy Tucker sings for his supper,
What shall we give him? Brown bread and butter.
How shall he cut it without a knife?
How shall he marry without a wife?
(1829)

"Little Tommy Tucker" was a colloquialism for an orphan.  These children had to beg or sing for food if they weren't taken in and cared for by somebody.​ 
 

LRV


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## luno

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Please acquaint yourself with the facts. The Royal family is contributing towards the cost of maintaining the lazy, work-shy of Britain.
> 
> So     Luno.
> 
> 
> LRV


Sorry, but despite what you say, most of the Royal Family are lazy, work-shy scroungers.  
I'd rather my taxes went to people living on the bread-line on council estates than to maintaining the pampered lifestyle of a bunch of foreigners who don't really contribute anything (I could just as easily knock together a few figures to prove my point).
This is off-topic anyway, so let's leave it here.


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## maxiogee

luno said:
			
		

> Sorry, but despite what you say, most of the Royal Family are lazy, work-shy scroungers.
> I'd rather my taxes went to people living on the bread-line on council estates than to maintaining the pampered lifestyle of a bunch of foreigners who don't really contribute anything (I could just as easily knock together a few figures to prove my point).
> This is off-topic anyway, so let's leave it here.



Let's not.  
It's highly on-topic, it seems to me.  
Who amongst them are work-shy to the extent that you are paying them so to be?
As an Irishman looking across the Irish Sea at you guys, I'm fascinated by the extremes of opinion the British royal family can arouse.
Apart from Prince Philip and Princess Michael of Kent (and does she get anything from the Civil List?), which of them are "a bunch of foreigners"? Surely you don't consider two to constitute "a bunch"?


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## mjscott

Razor said:
			
		

> He that will not work shall not eat.
> When the first ships from England were sent over to North America to form the Virginia Company, Captain John Smith was put in stocks (prisoner's chains) on the ship. Later, when they unsealed a mandate from the king as to who was to be in charge, Captain John Smith's name was on the list. While English entrepreneurs and gentlemen expected to have their tea served at 4:00, Captain John Smith knew that they would all starve and freeze to death if they did not put up shelter and plant crops. He made an edict: "He that will not work shall not eat."_ --If you count that this is a valuable story as to the beginnings of my country, you can see where the (de)valuation of idleness stands._
> An idle brain is the devil's workshop.
> _My American mother, whose grandparents consist of generations in the US, would tell me this often as I grew up. You must remember that all nations until the industrial revolution were agrarian societies. If no one planted the fields and harvested the crops--and if no one cut firewood, then no one survived the winter!_
> 
> A lazy man is the beggar's brother.
> *Proverbs 18:9*
> He also that is slothful in his work is *brother* to him that is a great waster.
> _This saying from Proverbs is one of many that would be called upon to demonstrate what is called the Judeo-Christian ethic with regards to laziness._
> All work and no play make Jack a dull boy.
> _Along with the Judeo-Christian ethic of working hard while you can, is the idea that the sabbath was made to rest--that different celebrations throughout the year were made for man to rest._
> 
> 
> In the morning mountains, in the evening fountains (_Do you know the etymology of this saying? Why does the bright part of the day typifies, if I may say so, a geographical term, whereas the closing portion of the diurnal cycle is a representation of a source of youth and freshness_?).
> _In order to get to a fountainhead, you must climb mountains. Water runs downhill. In order to get to the source of the water, you must climb the mountain._
> 
> I would like you to share your thoughts and ideas on some new points that I confronted to find myself at a loss again. Here are they are:
> 
> 1. Are the proverbs about idleness and dislike of labour somehow or closely related to the *daily routine of agricultural workers or rural environment*? As far as the Russian counterparts are concerned, such connection is pursued without ambiguity.
> _It was, but has crossed over into everyday life, here-and-now._
> 2. Does the concept of IDLENESS (or LAZINESS) typify more of a *spiritual or physical condition*? Which is most particular to the English?
> _It depends on the person. It is also said that someone is so heaven-bound, that they are of no worldly good--which means that they may be quite diligent in the area of spiritual pursuits, but that sometimes such diligence is of no physical practicality._
> 4. Does the concept of idleness indicate solely *indulgence or denunciation* with regard to those who, say, _loathed to extend efforts to plough the corn field or grind wheat into flour_?
> _Personal opinion? Both. If you have ever raised young adults who fall in and out of dependency, you have a tendency to extol hard work and denounce idleness. What parent doesn't? Does a culture exist where taking upon themselves the yoke of the parents (or an equally rigorous yoke) *not* exist? I would fain say that culture would not last long!_
> 5. Does the concept of idleness possess *any philosophical or ecclesiastical connotations*? I remember someone on this forum mentioning _Wordsworth's or Coleridge's contemplative response_ to expanses of verdure or 'elemental' tranquility. I might misinterepret the previous authors' messages. Sorry if so.
> *Psalm 46:10*
> Be *still*, and *know* that *I* *am* *God*
> _So, even if hard work and all is strongly encouraged, there is a Judeo-Christian ethic of also learning when to be still and rest._
> The Russian interpretation of laziness, for instance, is sometimes reduced to the implication of intellectual wisdom. In a celebrated work of literature by Gogol ('The Marriage'), a certain character suddenly ceases to act energetically (I speak of a general idea of activity) and in the thick of roar and hectic arrangements he sinks into the ontological purpose of being and doing, which might seduct his mind to experiencing an indifferent idleness, so to speak.
> _You might be interested in reading "Bartleby, the Scrivener" by Herman Melville_
> 6. Why idleness *is not associated with animal representatives* like sloth? It's a personality flaw, isn't it? So, the Church must have condemned the state of idle pursuits, true?
> _I think this was addressed by another--who claimed that the sloth was named after the Bible--not the other way around. Also, I am Protestant and have not ever heard of laziness being represented by a goat or the color blue...._
> 7. Would it be correct to maintain that English proverbs about idleness and laziness *constantly echo with animal images or personfications*? I've encountered no proper name that would be characteristic of English idleness or laziness. _Russian paremiology abounds in buccolic names with regard to popular sayings treating labour as a virtue and 'anti-lethargic' remedy_.
> _The example of the ant as an industrious counter-example is both known in literature and as a Judeo-Christian ethic example._
> _Please, also, read Proverbs 6 for a better view of this perception._
> _The story of Henny Penny and the grain is also a character counter-example. You have been given many, many examples on both sides--many times animals are used to depict character traits that a culture wishes to infuse into its children._
> 8. Does the concept of idleness *play a significant part in traditional English culture*? I once bumped into an article (to be exact, it was a literature course student's program) in the Google advanced search. It dealt with the meaning of idleness in Japanese and English cultures. The first paragraph immediately referred to the great role that idleness plays both in English and Japanese culture.
> 
> I would be over the moon if you could answer and comment on some of the questions above. It's extremely important to me to reinforce my exertions and research with a few refreshing ideas.


 
_I don't know where you went to get the meaning of idleness in Japanese and English cultures, so therefore cannot answer on this one. All I know is that English culture was a key part of American culture, and that industriousness played more of a key part in its development than idleness._

Good luck.


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## Razor

I would like to thank you all for assisting me in a challenging task of getting to the connotations of the word proposed. This duscussion has been tremendously helpful and educational to me. The most important thing, however, is that based on your reflections and ideas I was a real success with my graduation thesis yesterday (29th Mai, 2006). So, you may congratulate me on that. I admit that it's quite hard to make a definitive statement on the true nature of the word or go beneath the ultimate substance, but our collaborative excavations have not been fruitless. Thank you, once again. Your views remain the best compensation for my ignorance. 
 
Best wishes,
Roman (Russian Federation)


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