# Persian, Urdu, Hindi: fresh off the boat



## Alfaaz

*Background:* Wikipedia Article

*Guess for Urdu:* تازہ مبعوث / آمد / وارد کشتی/ سفینہ / ناؤ maybe in an izaafat....or simply تازہ کشتی سے اترے ہوئے ? The politically correct term could probably be غریب الوطن ? 
نو دلاتی seems to be different, more like "new money"....

Edit: Adding transliteration: tazah maba'ous / aamad / warid  -e-  kashti / safeenah / nau;  tazah kashti se utre hue ;  ghareeb-ul-watan 

*Question:* What idioms/phrases/expressions could be/are used similarly to the English phrase?


----------



## greatbear

For a country like India, where not much discrimination exists against immigrants, it would be difficult to find an equivalent idiom or expression. If someone is new to a job or area, though one does use "nayaa hai" (you will especially hear such language in Bollywood tapori films, e.g. a don saying to a new recruit "abhi tu nayaa hai"). That only means "you are new to it", so doesn't convey "off the boat" meaning.

For countries like Pakistan, I've heard of a term called "mohajir", but I think it is a controversial term, with different people ascribing different meanings to it.


----------



## Alfaaz

> "nayaa hai"


That could work, depending on context....(like in "Bollywood tapori films")



> For countries like Pakistan, I've heard of a term called "mohajir", but I think it is a controversial term, with different people ascribing different meanings to it.



مہاجر / muhaajir just means immigrant, so it could kind of work....but not really! Doesn't seem to convey the message the English phrase does...


----------



## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> For a country like India, where not much discrimination exists against immigrants, it would be difficult to find an equivalent idiom or expression. If someone is new to a job or area, though one does use "nayaa hai" (you will especially hear such language in Bollywood tapori films, e.g. a don saying to a new recruit "abhi tu nayaa hai"). That only means "you are new to it", so doesn't convey "off the boat" meaning.
> 
> For countries like Pakistan, I've heard of a term called "mohajir", but I think it is a controversial term, with different people ascribing different meanings to it.




I don't believe this is really answering the query. In fact I would say it is pure propaganda and off topic.


----------



## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> *Background:* Wikipedia Article
> 
> *Guess for Urdu:* تازہ مبعوث / آمد / وارد کشتی/ سفینہ / ناؤ maybe in an izaafat....or simply تازہ کشتی سے اترے ہوئے ? The politically correct term could probably be غریب الوطن ?
> نو دلاتی seems to be different, more like "new money"....
> 
> Edit: Adding transliteration: tazah maba'ous / aamad / warid  -e-  kashti / safeenah / nau;  tazah kashti se utre hue ;  ghareeb-ul-watan
> 
> *Question:* What idioms/phrases/expressions could be/are used similarly to the English phrase?



"taazah-vaarid" (new-comers/freshly-arrived) comes to mind although this does not incorporate the "boat" concept.


----------



## Alfaaz

> "taazah-vaarid" (new-comers/freshly-arrived) comes to mind although this does not incorporate the "boat" concept.


Could taazah waarid-e-safeenah/kashti work?


----------



## BP.

^Immigrants don't arrive in boats anymore, unless we're talking illegal travel. The old term _nau waari_d may easily apply.


----------



## Alfaaz

> Immigrants don't arrive in boats anymore, unless we're talking illegal travel. The old term _nau waari_d may easily apply.


 mostly true...probably too direct of a translation; nau waarid is a good suggestion...


----------



## panjabigator

Alfaaz said:


> *Background:* Wikipedia Article
> 
> *Guess for Urdu:* تازہ مبعوث / آمد / وارد کشتی/ سفینہ / ناؤ maybe in an izaafat....or simply تازہ کشتی سے اترے ہوئے ? The politically correct term could probably be غریب الوطن ?
> نو دلاتی seems to be different, more like "new money"....
> 
> Edit: Adding transliteration: tazah maba'ous / aamad / warid  -e-  kashti / safeenah / nau;  tazah kashti se utre hue ;  ghareeb-ul-watan
> 
> *Question:* What idioms/phrases/expressions could be/are used similarly to the English phrase?



In many American-Desi communities, the term "FOB" is both a point of ridicule and pride. Actions are described as "FOBy," often pejoratively, or even to mark authenticity. For me, the word is less a statement about arrival from abroad than behaviors vis-à-vis local culture. Is there a way we can keep that in mind when we translate this word?وارد کشتی caught my attention immediately as a good direct translation, but it doesn't (to me, at least), carry any of the condescension or derisive weight that FOB does.


----------



## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> In many American-Desi communities, the term "FOB" is both a point of ridicule and pride. Actions are described as "FOBy," often pejoratively, or even to mark authenticity. For me, the word is less a statement about arrival from abroad than behaviors vis-à-vis local culture. Is there a way we can keep that in mind when we translate this word?وارد کشتی caught my attention immediately as a good direct translation, but it doesn't (to me, at least), carry any of the condescension or derisive weight that FOB does.




PG SaaHib, when I suggested "taazah-vaarid"* (newly/freshly-arrived) to Alfaaz SaaHib, there was no suggestin that this had anything to do with a boat landing anywhere. "kashtii se utarnaa" does not fit in at all for my suggestion. I shall come back to this point.

* I have got this from Mirza Ghalib's couplet ..

ai taazah-vaaridaan-i-bisaat-i-havaa-i-dil
zinhaar agar tumheN havas-i-naa-o-nosh hai


----------



## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> In many American-Desi communities, the term "FOB" is both a point of ridicule and pride. Actions are described as "FOBy," often pejoratively, or even to mark authenticity. For me, the word is _*less a statement about arrival from abroad than behaviors vis-à-vis local culture.*_ Is there a way we can keep that in mind when we translate this word?وارد کشتی caught my attention immediately as a good direct translation, but it doesn't (to me, at least), carry any of the condescension or derisive weight that FOB does.


 _*Yes, this is a very important point PG!*_ Interestingly, I might be able to come up with a close approximation for the derogatory meaning of FOB rather than the one laden with pride! So here is my attempt:

_What does he know about our culture / our ways! He is just *fresh off the boat*!_
_us ko hamaarii tahziib / Taur Tariiqe kyaa ma3luum!  woh to abhii *nayaa nawelaa* aayaa hai! _
_us ko hamaarii tahziib __/ Taur Tariiqe__ kyaa ma3luum! woh to abhii *nayaa nayaa* aayaa hai! _
_us ko hamaarii tahziib __/ Taur Tariiqe__ kyaa ma3luum! woh to abhii *taazah taazah* aayaa hai! _


----------



## Alfaaz

> For me, the word is less a statement about arrival from abroad than behaviors vis-à-vis local culture. Is there a way we can keep that in mind when we translate this word?



I was wanting something similar and thought that a direct translation would kind of have the implied meaning also...



> *Yes, this is a very important point PG!* Interestingly, I might be able to come up with a close approximation for the derogatory meaning of FOB rather than the one laden with pride! So here is my attempt:
> _What does he know about our culture / our ways! He is just *fresh off the boat*!_



Interesting suggestions! I guess I was expecting a "closer" translation of the original phrase...but if a more descriptive one is needed, could one say something like: غیر / نا  مانوس / آشنا  تہذیب و ثقافت  
ghair /naa  manoos/ashnaa -e- tahzeeb-o-saqaafat ?  or wouldn't غریب الوطن work also...?


----------



## Faylasoof

Alfaaz said:


> ........
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes, this is a very important point PG!* Interestingly, I  might be able to come up with a close approximation for the derogatory  meaning of FOB rather than the one laden with pride! So here is my  attempt:
> _What does he know about our culture / our ways! He is just *fresh off the boat*!_
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting suggestions! I guess I was expecting a "closer" translation  of the original phrase...but if a more descriptive one is needed, could  one say something like: غیر / نا  مانوس / آشنا  تہذیب و ثقافت
> ghair /naa  manoos/ashnaa -e- tahzeeb-o-saqaafat ?  or wouldn't غریب الوطن work also...?
Click to expand...

 Well, _naa aashnaa_ / _ghair maanoos_ etc. are of course all used in Urdu but so are the suggestions I gave:


Faylasoof said:


> ......
> 
> _What does he know about our culture / our ways! He is just *fresh off the boat*!_
> _us ko hamaarii tahziib / Taur Tariiqe kyaa ma3luum!  woh to abhii *nayaa nawelaa* aayaa hai! _
> _us ko hamaarii tahziib __/ Taur Tariiqe__ kyaa ma3luum! woh to abhii *nayaa nayaa* aayaa hai! _
> _us ko hamaarii tahziib __/ Taur Tariiqe__ kyaa ma3luum! woh to abhii *taazah taazah* aayaa hai! _


 The reason for me opting for this simpler vocabulary is that it'll be understood at a wider level! Both Urdu and Hindi speakers would know what is meant. 

I'm still unsure as to what you mean when you say 'I guess I was expecting a "closer" translation  of the original phrase..' You can't bring the idea of the boat in here, as has already been argued! So the next best thing is to give the idea of what the original phrase means, i.e. a person landing in a part of the world the manners and costums of which he / she is unfamiliar with because he / she is a new arrival. I think the mention of a new arrival (_*nayaa nawelaa* / __*nayaa nayaa *__/ __*taazah taazah *__aayaa hai etc._) is close enough to '_fresh off the boat_'.

I don't think غریب الوطن _ghariib-ul-waTan _would be suitable here. Apart from the fact that it is not used that often, so wouldn't be that familiar to many, we generally use it when we are expressing feelings of despair.


----------



## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> I don't believe this is really answering the query. In fact I would say it is pure propaganda and off topic.



It's not off topic QP, since the English expression has a demeaning, often pejorative meaning for immigrants: we are not looking for a mere word for immigrants. Since such pejorativeness for immigrants does not exist in India, such an expression also doesn't in Hindi: if it looks a propaganda to you, I would suggest you reread the original question and try to understand what is meant. A boat is not crucial, where you seemed stuck; it's the pejorative subtlety that is sought to be reproduced in equivalent expressions.


----------



## marrish

Here my opinion about it: 
Both nau-waarid and taazah waarid are fit.

All the expressions as provided by Faylasoof SaaHib are very good and highly idiomatic.

I consider the background as given by greatbear SaaHib well-pointed and applicable to countries _like_ India, thus Pakistan as well.

That is why I don't think that a literal translation of the expression will do. 

By the way, none of the suggestions of Alfaaz can be used, as, apart from the meaning the quoted words carry, they don't fit here in terms of parts of speech and the register to which some of them are related.


----------



## Alfaaz

Thanks for all the suggestion! 



> By the way, none of the suggestions of Alfaaz can be used, as, apart from the meaning the quoted words carry, they don't fit here in terms of parts of speech and the register to which some of them are related.



With the direct translations, I had the concept in mind that it would be understood and carry the same implied meaning as the English phrase does. For example, now you can hear phrases like "woh almaari mein se nikal ayaa/ii hai" for the English "S/he has come out of the closet". The sentence in Urdu (and even in English) didn't mean what it has come to mean today...


----------



## greatbear

Alfaaz said:


> Thanks for all the suggestion!
> 
> 
> 
> With the direct translations, I had the concept in mind that it would be understood and carry the same implied meaning as the English phrase does. For example, now you can hear phrases like "woh almaari mein se nikal ayaa/ii hai" for the English "S/he has come out of the closet". The sentence in Urdu (and even in English) didn't mean what it has come to mean today...



I have never heard it, but I would say using "woh almaari mein si nikal aayaa hai" for coming out of the closet is not only a clear example of a calque but also very bad translation (some calques do go on to become popular, but I have my doubts about this one).
Note that the English "coming out of closet" has always meant only one thing: a homosexual revealing his or her sexual orientation to the world. There has never been any other meaning attached with this idiom.


----------



## Alfaaz

> Note that the English "coming out of closet" has always meant only one thing: a homosexual revealing his or her sexual orientation to the world. There has never been any other meaning attached with this idiom.



Might be wrong, but isn't it also used in Older English as a way to say "coming out of the bath/restroom"; "Clean youself before praying if you have: _touched_ your spouse, have come out of the closet, etc."


----------



## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> Thanks for all the suggestion!
> 
> 
> 
> With the direct translations, I had the concept in mind that it would be understood and carry the same implied meaning as the English phrase does. For example, now you can hear phrases like "woh almaari mein se nikal ayaa/ii hai" for the English "S/he has come out of the closet". The sentence in Urdu (and even in English) didn't mean what it has come to mean today...



Yes, this is the problem of direct translations and calques, I agree on this line with greatbear SaaHib. By referring to a boat the expression is not going to be nicer nor better, as far as the indirect meaning of the English expression is concerned.

You stated that one hears phrases like _''wuh almaarii meN se...''_ - I would be grateful for providing any background of the speakers or their place of residence. It's quite intriguing! I have to admit never to have encountered such a phrase but for a mouse .


----------



## Alfaaz

> I would be grateful for providing any background of the speakers or their place of residence. It's quite intriguing! I have to admit never to have encountered such a phrase but for a mouse .


Haha...; That's the same thing I thought of when I heard the expression (a rat or roach). Then I thought, maybe it is the "modern" way of saying something like: koile ki kaan mein se heera nikal ayaa hai; the diamond being a good singer, according to the context...... 
Context: A singing competition on Indus TV where one of the contestants says to one of the judges (Fakhir) that he loves him (as a singer of course!) and Fakhir replied with something similar to the expression stated above: "___________ almaari mein se nikal ayaa hai/ lagta hai ______ almaari mein se akhir-kaar nikal gaya hai"; 

Apart from that, it seems to be used among the younger crowd...; Can't remember which ones, but it was also used in one or two recent Bollywood movies...; 

There are also other "direct translations from English" that seem to gaining popularity gradually....can't remember right now.


----------



## eskandar

Possible Persian translations: تازه آمده / تازه وارد / مهاجر تازه

Of course, none of these really carry the pejorative sting of the English - I don't think there is a perfect equivalent in Persian (or at least I haven't heard one). Pretty much every second-generation Iranian in the West knows what "fresh off the boat/FOB" means, and we often use the English term ("فاب") when speaking Persian, to poke fun at ourselves.


----------

