# Religion in public schools?



## cuchuflete

What do you think of this?



> "New generations of Spaniards are growing up influenced by religious indifference and by ignorance of the Christian tradition with its rich spiritual heritage," the pope said, demanding that *the government give religious instruction in public schools to students who want it.*


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## Lluna1977

Hello...

Well, I went to a non-religious school, and maybe I'm a little bit ignorant about the christian traditions, yes, but... does it make me a worse person???
I think people should be taught religion only if they (or their parents) want to, and I don't think there's a big problem with this at the moment. I believe (although I could be wrong) that you have a choice and you can have religion classes if you want to.


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## Fernando

In Spain you are not forced to have religious classes if you (r parents) don't want to.

I have not attended to religious school either, only in University, but I think it is OK to receive religious education, given it is not incompatible with the civil values.

You are not supposed to be 'better' for receiving a religious education. Neither you are for receiving Philosophy (and we do).


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## zebedee

Religious education, in my opinion, is more a question of family education than scholarly education. 

Having said that, if religion is to be taught in schools, I'm all for it as long as the subject matter isn't limited to one religion but rather taught as a general wide-reaching objective subject - like philosophy or ethics. Opening children's minds to other religions teaches them tolerance and understanding towards other ethics/cultures in the same way as learning about the thoughts of the Ancient Greek philosophers.

At the risk of going off-topic, to what degree do parents nowadays put the onus on teachers and schools for 'giving' their children an education, taking little responsiblity for it themselves? 

zeb


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## Leopold

> "New generations of Spaniards are growing up influenced by religious indifference and by ignorance of the Christian tradition with its rich spiritual heritage," the pope said, demanding that *the government give religious instruction in public schools to students who want it."*



The Pope said without knowing. 
In Spain you study religion in school if your parents want you to. What was being discussed in Spain was whether the religion subject should account for the academic qualifications or not.
I think they decided not to. And I'm glad.

Personally I think religion should be completely out of schools, unless it is in the shape of History lessons inside the History subject and along with other religions' teachings. Nowadays the religious teaching creates, in most of the cases, catolic zombies who know nothing about their religion but are good to mantainthe Church's figures. It's no more about developing your life through a method or a lifestyle but about saying: "Oh yes, I believe in God" as if it were a way to avoid falling in Hell.
Let's bottle up our sins and smile at God.

It makes me sick, I'm sorry.


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## Like an Angel

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> What do you think of this?


 
As I'm not Spaniard I don't know if I may give my opinion, but in Argentina is happening something similar I think, although I didn't go to any Catholic school, I was taught about God, Jesus, María and commandments. I don't know if I may write about this right now, because I'm passing through a hard time as a Catholic, but I'd be glad if my niece and nephew were taught about moral principles instead of religion, saddly religions split up and if there is a God I'm sure he/she wants us united and no as we are. Religion was for years -and may be will be- a reason for fight, and that's -for me- not right at all.-


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## te gato

I am not a Spanish person either (by birth)..but by heart yes..so I will throw my two cents worth in...

Here only Catholic schools have religion taught..You can be a Catholic and choose to go to a Public school..and the other way around...
It all had to do with where you sent your school taxes...I went to a Catholic school..and the basics of religion were taught from grades 1 to 6...then if you wanted you did not have to 'take' religion from grades 7 to 9...
Most parents wanted to send their children to Catholic schools due to the fact that the classes were much smaller...less children..and it is still that way..
I thought that is why there were the two different school systems...
One..if you wished your children to learn religion..you sent them to the Seperate system..and no religion..the Public System...
Why force on to others what they do not want?

te gato


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## JLanguage

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> What do you think of this?


In the US this would be blatantly unconstitutional, but since Spain is predominantly Catholic (95%), I guess it's not a big deal.


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## Fernando

If you teach some values (philosophical or whatsoever) you are going to create division = fight. Of course, you can try learning nothing and let the people be dumbshits and this will be OK.


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## Monkling

Your quote referring to the address of Pope John Paul II to the Spanish bishops on Monday, January 24, 2005 was not accurate. The exact quote was this:


> In the contemporary social context, new generations of Spaniards are growing up influenced by religious indifferentism and by ignorance of the Christian tradition with its rich spiritual heritage. Moreover, they are exposed to the temptation of moral permissiveness. Young people are entitled to instruction in the faith from the very beginning of their schooling; nor can the integral education of younger children fail to include the teaching of religion at school, when parents request it, with an academic appreciation that does credit to its importance. The public Authorities, for their part, are duty bound to guarantee this parental right. And they must assure the real conditions for it to be effectively exercised, as set down in the Partial Agreements between Spain and the Holy See in 1979 and currently in force.


You may, of course, interpret it as you desire but there is no wording in his talk that states the pope wanted public schools to teach religion.


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## lainyn

I think making Religion class available to those who want it is a good idea. There is no harm in having it as an option course, surely. 

We (British Columbian Canadians) are taught bit about various religions in Social Studies class, but the focus wasn't on theology, but rather the church, and the various spin-offs and sects. I enjoyed it.


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## valerie

As a French educated in the french public school system (for free, obviously), I found, and I still find it quite shocking even to have religion classes available at public school (catholic religion, of course). If Spain really want to be a state independent from any religion, this should be made imposible. 
Then of course families that want their children to get religious education can go to the religious institutions to get them. The muslims and jews can do the same, and I think this is much more appropriate, because you open spirituality as another domain in life, not one more 'useless' school subject, and you are introduced to your local religious comunity much more.
Of course there is always the posibility to go to private religious schools (paying), and there are in Spain very different styles, from Opus Dei directed schools, where boys and girls are not mixed, to schools with quite light, open or modern religious program.

One final comment, which is perhaps quite off topic. I agree personaly with Fernando that religious education, or spiritual education is very important for children and for adults. I  think it opens your mind to other realities or posibilities, and from a pragmatic point of view, it may provide you with some form of being stronger, or some help in bad times, which should not be neglected. I always thought real atheists must have a very strong character, and this is not a very spread quality.


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## Fernando

I understand it is shocking for a French to have religion in school, since you have this as one of the pillars of your education system (which I admire, for the record).

Anyway the choice is to choose the values you teach or not. If your answer is "yes" one of the answers for the arising questions is give the parents several 'acceptable options' among they can choose, one of them religious education. 

No country chooses the 'no' option. While it was quite obvious what values a communist country taught, most countries chooses a very nationalist approach to the 'values problem'. I think France could be one of them.

Obviously, any religious education in public school must comply with 'civil' ethical standars. To begin with, it can not encourage discrimination.


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## abc

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> What do you think of this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "New generations of Spaniards are growing up influenced by religious indifference and by ignorance of the Christian tradition with its rich spiritual heritage," the pope said, demanding that *the government give religious instruction in public schools to students who want it.*
Click to expand...

 
Cuchu,

You should have cited the source. 

To answer your question, I think we could have Religion classes in public schools as long as _world religions_ are introduced, discussed, explored etc. etc. to help students understand the self and humanity and as long as Christianity is not the most dominant topic of all.


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## cuchuflete

abc said:
			
		

> Cuchu,
> 
> You should have cited the source.
> 
> To answer your question, I think we could have Religion classes in public schools as long as _world religions_ are introduced, discussed, explored etc. etc. to help students understand the self and humanity and as long as Christianity is not the most dominant topic of all.



QH-  You are right, I should have.  

Here is the quotation and the source:



> "New generations of Spaniards are growing up influenced by religious indifference and by ignorance of the Christian tradition with its rich spiritual heritage," the pope said, demanding that the government give religious instruction in public schools to students who want it. .
> Defense Minister José Bono, although a conservative Catholic himself, shot back that the attack was "an exaggeration and a mistake."


 Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/18/news/church.htmlhttp://www.iht.com/articles/2005/04/18/news/church.html


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## valerie

There may be two different focus when studying religion (s). One is presenting the different religions, comparing them, etc... which has an historical, sociological or antropological, anyway an external point of view. This is probably the most logical option for teaching at school. Then there is an internal approach presenting the spiritual, dogmatic, ritual aspects of a specific religion. This is what is being taught (optionally) in public school in Spain, for the roman catholic religion only, and this discrimination is not acceptable from my point of view.


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## cirrus

Although Ratzinger is on record as saying that any church which isn't catholic cannot be part of the "true church".  But given his progressive outlook we can hardly be suprised by this.

To imply that catecism has a vital role to play in spanish public schools would hardly be the most diplomatic of moves considering Spain's history from 39 to 75.


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## valerie

Thanks God, the pope is not ruling Spain, although some seems to think he should. There is some sort of spanish ultra-right lobbying in Roma, may be called opus dei, at the origin of sentences related to internal social issues and politics. I remember the previous pope expressing his opinion about 'el plan hidrologico', a plan made to redistribute water between spanish regions, which had become a serious politic issue.

Thanks God also, the whole spanish church is not as caricatural as some bishops, and there are also 'social oriented' priests, who knows what the today life is and offer helpful assistance. The way catecism is taught by them is full of respect and I think of great benefit to those learning it. 

Why not rely on them, more than on teachers in public schools? And why not dedicate public school to develop knowledge and hability to learn more than adherence to a specific religion?


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## Lancel0t

Religion in public schools (for the youth), IMHO could help a child become a better person because the religion will be one of the basis of his morals and values that eventually will be his/her guidelines in life.


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## valerie

I'm not saying religious education is bad for children. I think I have stated the contrary before. 

As I understand the higher values of our democracies in Europe (I try to talk only about what I know) tolerance and respect to others are crucial. This is one of the values that should be taught at school, before and above any rite, doctrine and religion. That is why I think religious education should not be mixed with other school subject, and should be identified as being a 'private' matter, a matter of family choice.

And all the more that the only possible religion taught in the spanish public schools is the roman catholic religion, although public schools in Spain are financed by the state, which is supposed to be independent from any church or religion. So it is completely inconsistent and discriminating that the public school teach roman catholic doctrine and rites, optionaly, but exclusively. Muslims families do pay taxes to the state, may send their children to a public school, but can not have access to the teaching of the muslim religion.


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## Fernando

As a matter of fact, there are agreements with some religions (I think with Jews, as an example) and the government is negotiating with some others (namely, islamism). Probably, we will have islamic teachers in Spain.

Several obvious problems:

1) These religions have a logistics problem. While 80% of Spanish parents prefer their children to study Religion (Catholic) it is unclear how many of them would choose others. So, you can have a high school with a class of 1 evangelic, as an example.

2) It is unclear if some religions (namely, islam) are truly compatible with civil values (respect to women and tolerance). While most catholic countries are democracies (except Cuba and africans) just a few islamic countries are (Turkey). You can say it is hard to say this but you can treat everybody the same way.

3) While Catholics have a teaching 'corpus' you can approve (or disapprove), protestants and islamists have many sub-sects. Again, it is unclear who is going to decide which your 'education supply' will be.

4) Islamic countries do not allow (in general) allow religious preaching other than islamic.


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## Silvia

Personally, I can say knowledge can only make me richer, and I'm not talking of money. So any NO to knowledge is a big loss to me.

Thanks to Monkling, who cleared up what the correct statement was.

Are atheists stronger? What does make you think that? Atheism is not a homogeneous cathegory, as I see it.

Cuchu, you didn't say what YOU think 

The politically correctness about religion sounds a little funny to me, since in our respective schools around the world we are not taught the very same things and no one ever complained about that. Take geography for example, we study about the world in general, but we have at least a whole year about our own country. I think that's good, because it would be a big mistake to learn everything about other countries without knowing yours. The same goes for history, arts, law and other subjects as well.

Also, I live in Italy and I have studied here, and as regards religion, we studied all of them, not only Catholicism.


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## pinkpanter

Hi,

I think a religious subject should be always optional. I prefer "ethics" and it can be quite fun study that when you are little.


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## Fernando

Religion is optional. As a matter of fact, the alternative uses to be "Ethics".


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## asm

In my opinion religion should be taught, but not at the school. In the USA churches are the most segregated intitution of all, if you take that model into the school you will generate some issues that will put people against each other.
Even in Spain, a more catholic country (in % because in numbers, power and other aspects USA has a larger church) you shouldnt do it.

In adition, schools are in the aim of every single social issue; people blame on schools because some issues that families, churches, media and other institutions are not solving. People think that schools are responsible for teen pregnancy, drug use, alcohol abuse, bullying behavior, even for serial killers (like the infamous cases in the USA). If religion education is a must (and I agree with this position) we should go to the church to provide it, if not, lets try the family, if not, lets try the media (there are some TV/radio stations that broadcast such things).
In my college years I witnessed a sad experience with some girls. I was familiar to a nuns' school, and in my opinion some girls ended hating the church because the bad experiences with the nuns' discipline, it is only an example.
Schools should provide ethics and moral background, thes should provide classes to enhance endurance, flexibility, resiliance, and other values, but not with a religious perspective. 
It is the church's responsibility, along with the family, to educate in the faith, do not make the school pay the price (financial, social and pedagogical). With these claims we want to pay through the cheapest way, and it is not fair for the children or for the school.
If parents want religous education, please, provide it themselves. You cannot provide it because you are not an expert? Go to the church, not to the school, they are already busy with their own stuff and doing things others do not want to do.


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## Benjy

mmmm.. i think as it has alrady been said (and proabably more eloquently as well) the religion as a way of life or a representaion of the truth should not be taught in school at the national level. i think religion and philosophy should be studied side by side, as ideas. i for one would have loved to have studied a little more of that kind of stuff when i was at school. children need to decide for themselves what they think. they need to ask their own questions and find their their own answers.

as for the family: i think most all the problems we have in society could be resolved by proper parenting.


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## valerie

Benjy said:
			
		

> as for the family: i think most all the problems we have in society could be resolved by *proper parenting*.



Benjy, as a parent myself, I'm struggling every day on this subject, and I am probably over sensitive on people saying this, especially as next step is normally expressing parents are guilty of everthing bad occuring. Life is complicated and being a parent, as well as a woman/man, a spouse, a son/daughter, a worker, a citizen, etc. also is. Please do not be too hard on parents, at least till you can demonstrate to be an example (and I do not know any parent who sincerely believes he/she is one)


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## Benjy

i'm not saying that parents are guilty of everything.you can give all the love you want to a child and still be rejected. however, many are the parents who let the television educate their children then are suprised to see their children ape what they see. granted, i'm not a parent, so maybe my opinion isn't valid on this point. i have however had the chance to observe a lot of families and the way they function and the way their children see the world.


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## valerie

Fernando said:
			
		

> 1) These religions have a logistics problem.
> 2) It is unclear if some religions (namely, islam) are truly compatible with civil values (respect to women and tolerance). While most catholic countries are democracies (except Cuba and africans) just a few islamic countries are (Turkey). You can say it is hard to say this but you can treat everybody the same way.
> 
> 3) While Catholics have a teaching 'corpus' you can approve (or disapprove), protestants and islamists have many sub-sects. Again, it is unclear who is going to decide which your 'education supply' will be.
> 
> 4) Islamic countries do not allow (in general) allow religious preaching other than islamic.



I think you mix things up. Are your reasons  number 2 and 4 proving anything? I cannot imagine this would be a justification for Spain not allowing the preaching of any other religion than the catholic one, or would it be?
We are talking about Spain, a European democracy with its own corpus of laws, applying to everybody, be he muslim or catholic. These laws are based on values which are shared and have to be shared by all the residents in Spain. Unless you think we should 'send home' all muslims from Spain or we should convert them to catholicism, we have to assume that these persons will comply with spanish laws (and if not will be punished for that, as everybody else) , will practice their own religion, and want their children get their own religious education. 
So nº 2 and 4 are not valid arguments to talk about teaching religion in Spain. They only confirm that school and especially public school have to be one of the educational vehicles for those fundamental values like personal responsability, respect and tolerance, etc...

As to your reason number 3, I do not see why the religious educacion or 'corpus' should be approved by the state or any central or autonomic authority. It should, if it had to be included into the public school program, but if you let it to the religious institutions, there is no necesity to normalize the religions, and the independence of the State and the churches would be easier. 
Your reason number 1, along with reason number 3, only proves that it is incompatible to teach religions in public schools and respect the diversity of faiths within the spanish state.


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## Fernando

Disagree. I think some religions are fully incompatible with civil values. I am not saying specifically that Islam is incompatible with democracy but I think that some interpretations of Islam (for the record, as someinterpretations of christianism) are.

As an example an imam in Spain published a book in which he recommended the best way to beat your wife without being noticed. I certainly think that this kind of preaching should not be allowed at all. Religion does not mean a 'patente de corso' to attack the civil values. 

I am not saying only the catholic religion should be allowed, I am saying some religions should not be.


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## asm

Parents are not guilty, they are resposible, though. Parents should be accountable for many things that we know ask for at schools.
It is not blaming, it is "solving" how we are going to help our kids survive. The problem with *some* parents is that they let "society" educate and raise their kids until they realize it was not the best way, and instead of taking charge of the issue, they blame on schools.
I've seen lots of parents with this point of view " my child is not that bad, but his/her friends are the ones who are spoiling him/her, how can you help him/her avoid those friends?" But knowing the group of friends you see that their kid is the one who is misbehaving and leading the behavior.
Taking responsiblities and not blaming will help parents succeed in this endeavour.
I am the father of three, and I hope I could succeed in this topic, but I have also worked in schools where parents push for things that do not belong to the schools. (A mother asked us not to invite their children to the disco; we never do activities in discos, some students do. But she was in charge of letting her go or not, why us? can you image a teacher saying you can go to the party and you cannot go?




			
				valerie said:
			
		

> Benjy, as a parent myself, I'm struggling every day on this subject, and I am probably over sensitive on people saying this, especially as next step is normally expressing parents are guilty of everthing bad occuring. Life is complicated and being a parent, as well as a woman/man, a spouse, a son/daughter, a worker, a citizen, etc. also is. Please do not be too hard on parents, at least till you can demonstrate to be an example (and I do not know any parent who sincerely believes he/she is one)


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## cuchuflete

Silvia said:
			
		

> Cuchu, you didn't say what YOU think



You are right Silvia, I didn't.

The original question was about what foreros think of the teaching of religion in public schools.  I'll offer my personal opinions.

1. I think it useful for public schools to teach *about *religion*s. *That is quite distinct from teaching the views of a single religion.
2. I believe religious instruction should be given, when parents want to instill it in their own children, in the home and also in religious institutions.

Why?  Because when a state has any control over what is taught, the subject, including religion, is subject to the arbitrary preferences of a bureaucrat, who may or may not be knowledgeable about the subject.
I believe people should be free to practice whatever religion they please, without state intervention of any kind. By intervention I mean support as well as limitations.  

Finally, where public school instruction in Spain is concerned, that should be up to the citizens of Spain.  They may see things quite differently from me, and my opinion really should not, and does not, matter at all.  

saludos,
Cuchu


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## asm

It is quite different to "study religions", with a cultural/philosophical perspective than to "study religion". While the former focus on knowledge and human needs, the former focus on doctrine and internal issues (for that specific religions). In the first case you are increasing knowledge , in the second you are subsidizing what others (families and churches) should (must) do.
I want my kids learn about Islam- and other religions also, but I do not want them to be indoctrinated by any of those religions. Besides, I do not want children from other religions to be indoctrinated in my religion because it will be likely that they will hate it. We might be breeding some intolerant kids in the best scenario.

Regarding the "richness", I think that knowledge is worthless if it is not combined with at least some humbleness, I agree with the whole idea, but some times we get knowledge just for the power it brings (but that's another issue I do not want to get involved to).
 
Benji: disculpa por no escribir ideas totalmente originales, y mas aun si alguien las ha escrito mas elocuentemente. Creia que estos foros son para compartir ideas y generar cuestionamientos. Generalmente en estos temas, cuando hay polemica, es dificil, si no imposible, que alguien aporte algo que no se haya dicho anteriormente. Disculpa de nuevo, pero creo que voy a seguir comentando temas cuando lo crea conveniente, aun cuando mi razonamiento no sea perfecto, cuando de entrada sepa que mis argumentos son debiles y cuando mi nivel del idioma no sea el optimo.
Sorry, you are the bestest, I am the worstest.




			
				Silvia said:
			
		

> Personally, I can say knowledge can only make me richer, and I'm not talking of money. So any NO to knowledge is a big loss to me.
> 
> Thanks to Monkling, who cleared up what the correct statement was.
> 
> Are atheists stronger? What does make you think that? Atheism is not a homogeneous cathegory, as I see it.
> 
> Cuchu, you didn't say what YOU think
> 
> The politically correctness about religion sounds a little funny to me, since in our respective schools around the world we are not taught the very same things and no one ever complained about that. Take geography for example, we study about the world in general, but we have at least a whole year about our own country. I think that's good, because it would be a big mistake to learn everything about other countries without knowing yours. The same goes for history, arts, law and other subjects as well.
> 
> Also, I live in Italy and I have studied here, and as regards religion, we studied all of them, not only Catholicism.


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## valerie

Fernando said:
			
		

> Disagree. I think some religions are fully incompatible with civil values. I am not saying specifically that Islam is incompatible with democracy but I think that some interpretations of Islam (for the record, as *someinterpretations of christianism*) are.



As calling civil servants to disobey the proper laws of their country?

http://www.lavanguardia.es/web/20050422/51182421383.html

but may be the general subject of the catholic church intrusion in the public life in Spain may be the subject of another thread


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## lainyn

Valerie, I would love to read the link you provided, but it requires a username and password. Is there any way to describe what you wanted us all to read? 

Thanks,
~Lainyn


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## Fernando

valerie said:
			
		

> As calling civil servants to disobey the proper laws of their country?
> but may be the general subject of the catholic church intrusion in the public life in Spain may be the subject of another thread



Of course, it Catholic Church continues to call for 'public disobedience' it can be forbidden. Anyway, I can provide you a list of associations that call for public disobedience, now or in the past:

- Nationalist parties.

- The president of the Basque Parliament.

- Associations pro-inmigrants.

- PSOE (nowadays in power)
...


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## valerie

lainyn said:
			
		

> Valerie, I would love to read the link you provided, but it requires a username and password. Is there any way to describe what you wanted us all to read?
> 
> Thanks,
> ~Lainyn



I suspect the article was access free on the day of the publication, and is now protected. 

It relates that the pope called spanish civil servants to refuse to marry same sex couples. The context is that the law allowing same sex couples to get married has been approved by the 'congreso' in first lecture (?) some days ago. I think you may find the news today also in the spanish papers, as this position has been reiterated by another cardenal.

I am leaving this thread now, as I do not want to get more involved in a political discussion.


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## Grecus

I'm Italian and I'm attending a public school like most Italians young people. Here you (your parents and you, in fact) can decide whether to attend or not to attend religion classes. 

Religion teacher are often laics. They always teach values of religionS, not only catholic values! And they put you in a position to value on your own the religions; they give you the (filosophical etc.) means to value!

Italian school has many problems but it isn't one of them.

(Sorry for my bad English)
Bye


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## Fernando

valerie said:
			
		

> I am leaving this thread now, as I do not want to get more involved in a political discussion.



There is no problem in getting involved in a political discussion, while people is not harsh. If it has been my case, I apologize.


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