# Orrdinal numbers and which cases they should be in



## Aemasil

So I'm trying to learn Russian and while reading a text on Tolstoy I came across this bit

"Во время Крымской войны (1854 - 1856) он участвовал в обороне Севастополя"

How do I pronounce the years-bit in that sentence? I'm leaning towards ending both with -ого and throwing in a до between them.

Many thanks.


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## rusita preciosa

Hi Aemasil, welcome to the forum.
I'd say: Во время Крымской войны тысяча восемьсот пятьдесят четвёртого – пятьдесят шестого годов... (no "до").


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## WordOrder

In this particular example the case is nominative: _ты́сяча восемьсо́т пятьдеся́т четвёртый — ты́сяча восемьсо́т пятьдеся́т шесто́й_.

If the sentence was _Во время Крымской войны 1854—1856 гг. он учавствовал в обороне Севастополя_, the case would be genitive: _ты́сяча восемьсо́т пятьдеся́т четвёртого — ты́сяча восемьсо́т пятьдеся́т шесто́го годо́в_.


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## Aemasil

Thanks! Much appreciated.


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## Ёж!

In addition: this way of writing years in paranthesis is a purely written convention, so in speech, or reading aloud, I would rather go by Rusita's suggestion, or even introduce a complete phrase in between: «война длилась с тысяча восемьсот пятьдесят четвёртого по тысяча восемьсот пятьдесят шестой год»; in reading to myself (not aloud), I would most likely skip it and just take a notice; otherwise, this could be either WordOrder's suggestion or somewhat vulgar (not?) and I don't know if quite correct pronunciation with only cardinal numbers in Nominative, just the way it's written.


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## Ben Jamin

Could you use "от тысяча восемьсот пятьдесят четвёртого до тысяча восемьсот пятьдесят шестого года»?


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## Ёж!

No, I don't think so. Here – not at all, in some special context – maybe.


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## Maroseika

If I had to read it aloud I'd say it in Nominative, with a pause, as a subordinate clause.


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## Ёж!

Maroseika said:
			
		

> If I had to read it aloud I'd say it in Nominative, with a pause, as a subordinate clause.


As cardinal or ordinal numbers?


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## Синица

We usually use "с... по..." construction with years (intervals). "по" has the same meaning as "до", but implies "inclusive". "С 1854 по 1856" means 1854, 1855, 1856. "с... до..." construction doen't seem strange to me, still, it is less common. "С 1854 до 1856" would mean 1854, 1855. 
Please note: по + тысяча восемьсот пятьдесят шестой год
but: до + тысяча восемьсот пятьдесят шестого года


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## Maroseika

Ёж! said:


> As cardinal or ordinal numbers?



Ordinal.


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## Maroseika

Синица said:


> We usually use "с... по..." construction with years (intervals).



I'm afraid in the present context this construction is inappropriate and confusive:

Во время Крымской войны с 1854 по 1856 он участвовал в обороне Севастополя.

This means that during the war he took part in the defence of Sevastopol since 1854 to 1856, i.e. the period refers to his participation instead of duration of war.


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## Ben Jamin

Ёж! said:


> No, I don't think so. Here – not at all, in some special context – maybe.


In what contexts could  a construction with "от XXXC до XXXX" be used?


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## Синица

Maroseika said:


> I'm afraid in the present context this construction is inappropriate and confusive:


Oh, yes, I agree, it was just a general comment to show the difference between "до" and "по"

In this context I agree with WordOrder


WordOrder said:


> In this particular example the case is nominative: _ты́сяча восемьсо́т пятьдеся́т четвёртый — ты́сяча восемьсо́т пятьдеся́т шесто́й_.


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## Ёж!

Ben Jamin said:


> In what contexts could  a construction with "от XXXC до XXXX" be used?


When we want to emphasize the limiting nature of the years for events, and this does not work for notes in passing like Tolstoy's.


Maroseika said:


> Ordinal.


Thank you.


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## Ben Jamin

Ёж! said:


> When we want to emphasize the limiting nature of the years for events, and this does not work for notes in passing like Tolstoy's.


Like "я работал на этом заводе от 1982 до 1994"?


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## Ёж!

No, this is weird.

Such usage of prepositions is not regular, instead it would be extremely rare. This is why I said 'maybe', I even doubted their existence (and I doubt now). Like: «От двухтысячного года до две тысячи третьего продолжалась его эскапада, потом он образумился». It kind of excludes the limits, and so puts attention on what happened inside them. Usually time limits are _included_ in a period, so the pair «с... по...» is used, like in your example. In my example, «с... по...» would work better, too.

Correction: see here («История государственного пожарного надзора – от 2002 года до 2012»). The time limits are included here factually, but they are excluded from our attention, we're instead thinking on what's inside.


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## Maroseika

I think "от NNN года" is not used with Ordinals at all.


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## Ёж!

Maroseika said:
			
		

> I think "от NNN года" is not used with Ordinals at all.


How do you think, is the escapade example correct or acceptable? I have doubts. I think the fire services example _is_ nice.


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## Maroseika

Ёж! said:


> How do you think, is the escapade example correct or acceptable? I have doubts. I think the fire services example _is_ nice.


To say the truth, for me it sounds like pronounced by a foreigner.
Fire services example is a bit better, but still sounds clumsy. I think от can be used only for the dates far in the past and not presuming exact limits, something like "от 1917 года до наших дней", where 1917 means the epoch margin rather than exact date.


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## Ёж!

What about «Я мучил сломанный телевизор от девяносто пятого года до девяносто восьмого, а потом выбросил»? To me, it's a good sentence, especially if pronounced with emphasis on the years and a pause before the second year.


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## Maroseika

Ёж! said:


> What about «Я мучил сломанный телевизор от девяносто пятого года до девяносто восьмого, а потом выбросил»? To me, it's a good sentence, especially if pronounced with emphasis on the years and a pause before the second year.


I'm afraid it's all not Russian for me. Maybe others think different, though. Let's look how it is used in other contexts:

Выставка "От 1941 до 1945".
Куплю предметы третьего рейха от 1941 до 1945.
Севастополь от 1941 до наших дней.
...кто прошагал тяжелый путь от 1941 до 1945 года.

I.e. it can be used when the emphasis is on the margins rather than on the period.


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## Ёж!

Maroseika said:


> ...кто прошагал тяжелый путь от 1941 до 1945 года.


My understanding is that the path is emphasised. That is, the margins are set (the limits are important), and then the direction of the path is followed with much attention (the happenings are important yet more).


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## Maroseika

Ёж! said:


> My understanding is that the path is emphasised.


Mine is different. Maybe others solve the dispute.


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## rusita preciosa

I'd say, when you descrive the timeline of an action, it is c...по (*Он покупал предметы третьего рейха (когда?) c 1941 по 1945*.); when you describe the property of the subject, it is от...до (*Куплю предметы третьего рейха (какие?) от 1941 до 1945*.).


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## Ben Jamin

Russian is more difficult than I ever imagined before.


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