# Persian xu "temper, inclination", cognate with Proto-Germanic *xugiz?



## CyrusSH

According to خو - Wiktionary Persian _xu_ is from Middle Persian _xōg_, Cognates with Old English _hyġe_.

Old English hyġe "mind" is from Proto-Germanic *_xugiz_, cognate with Danish hu "inclination", Swedish håg "temper", ... English words _high_, _how_, ... are from the same origin too.

Is it correct?


----------



## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Is it correct?


The SAOB has for the Swedish håd the following etymological information:
[fsv. hugher, hogher, själ, sinne, tanke, mod, sinnelag, motsv. ä. d. hug, d. hu, nor. hug, isl. hugr, got. hugs, fsax. hugi, mnl. hoghe, holl. heug, feng. hyge, fht. hugu, hugi, alla med bet.: håg, sinne, delvis äv.: fröjd, glädje; *av ovisst urspr.* — Jfr HOGTORN, HUGN, HUGNA, HUGNAD, HUGNELIG, HUGNESAM, HUGSA, HÅGSE(N)]​
I haven't found anything to the contrary. So, probably not.


----------



## CyrusSH

In Persian _xu_ has two synonyms: _manesh_ and _segal_.

_Manesh_ (like in the word _Haxā-maniš_ "Achaemenes") is from proto-IE * men- "1. to think, mind, 2. spiritual activity", of course in Modern Persian it has mostly the second meaning and is more related to soul than mind.

_Segal_ "thought, idea, soul, character, humor, nature" is an important word in the Persian culture, like in the words _bad-segal_ "mean, evil-minded, malevolent" and _nik-segal_ "public-spirited, benevolent, well-wisher". According to سکالیدن - Wiktionary it is cognate with with Latin _schola_ but the Latin word is itself from Ancient Greek σχολή (skholḗ). And as you read about the English word _school_: school - Wiktionary σχολή (skholḗ, “spare time, leisure", later, "conversations and the knowledge gained through them during free time; the places where these conversations took place”), from Proto-Indo-European *seǵhe-, *sǵhē- (“to hold, have, possess”). So Persian _segal_ can't be a cognate, but a loanword form Greek and I really doubt. Anyway it could be also related to Proto-Germanic saiwalō "soul" or Arabic su'al "quest", of course this site believes the Arabic word has an Indo-European origin, from proto-IE *seh₂g- "to seek out", it says Persian _sag_ "dog" has the same origin.


----------



## PersoLatin

CyrusSH said:


> According to خو - Wiktionary Persian _xu_ is from Middle Persian _xōg_, Cognates with Old English _hyġe_.


I have argued this before, the /g/ in _xōg, _like many other similar MP words, ending in strong vowel, (é, ō & â) was not pronounced and acted as a place holder/identifier.


----------



## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> In Persian _xu_ has two synonyms: _manesh_ and _segal_.


Synonyms have very little or nothing to do with cognates.


CyrusSH said:


> English words _high_, _how_, ... are from the same origin too.


Absolutely not.


----------



## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> The SAOB has for the Swedish håd the following etymological information:
> [fsv. hugher, hogher, själ, sinne, tanke, mod, sinnelag, motsv. ä. d. hug, d. hu, nor. hug, isl. hugr, got. hugs, fsax. hugi, mnl. hoghe, holl. heug, feng. hyge, fht. hugu, hugi, alla med bet.: håg, sinne, delvis äv.: fröjd, glädje; *av ovisst urspr.* — Jfr HOGTORN, HUGN, HUGNA, HUGNAD, HUGNELIG, HUGNESAM, HUGSA, HÅGSE(N)]​
> I haven't found anything to the contrary. So, probably not.



The main thing which makes a difference between Persian _xu_ and other Persian words that I mentioned in my previous post, is the meaning of "tendency", it can be compared to Persian xamesh "bias, leaning", as I mentioned in another thread Persian _xam_ "bend, curve" is from proto-IE *kam-p "bend", so Middle Persian _xōg_ could be from proto-IE **kauk-, -g-* "bend, crook", it seems very possible that the Germanic word has the same origin.


----------



## berndf

berndf said:


> CyrusSH said:
> 
> 
> 
> English words _high_, _how_, ... are from the same origin too.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely not.
Click to expand...

I now see where you got this form: Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hugiz - Wiktionary

Wiktionary is a great first stop resource but you must never take etymological information at face value and always cross check it. It is often enough to cross check it internally. When you look up _high_ and _how_ it becomes clear immediately why this can't be correct.


----------



## CyrusSH

Ok, about _high_: high - Wiktionary



> From Middle English high, heigh, heih, from Old English hēah (“high, tall, lofty, high-class, exalted, sublime, illustrious, important, proud, haughty, deep, right”), from Proto-Germanic *hauhaz (“high”), from Proto-Indo-European *kewk- (“to bend, curve, arch, vault”)



So it is also from the same PIE root that I mentioned in my previous post.

and _how_: how - Wiktionary



> *Etymology 3*
> 
> From Old Norse haugr.



haugr - Wiktionary



> Akin to hár (“high”), Danish høj (“hill”), Northern Sami hög (“hill”), North English how, from Proto-Germanic *hauhaz.



It is from the same PIE root too.


----------



## berndf

Please stay on topic. We are talking about _hyge_.


----------



## CyrusSH

I explained the possible origin in post #6, Modern Persian xuh, xuhl "bend, crook" is from the same PIE root too.


----------



## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> I explained the possible origin in post #6, Modern Persian xuh, xuhl "bend, crook" is from the same PIE root too.


But not _hyge_. Again, stay on topic.


----------



## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> But not _hyge_. Again, stay on topic.



hyge - Wiktionary



> (poetic) thought, mind, mood, desire, inclination
> 
> Forþon is min hyge geomor. Therefore my thought is sad. (‘The Wife's Lament’)
> ne biþ him to hearpan hyge. He has no desire/mind for the harp. (‘The Seafarer’)



It seems to be clear, especially by those examples, that _hyge_ doesn't mean "mind" but "state of mind", so "inclination" is actually the main meaning of this word.


----------



## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> hyge - Wiktionary
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to be clear, especially by those examples, that _hyge_ doesn't mean "mind" but "state of mind", so "inclination" is actually the main meaning of this word.


It is a rare word in Old English with few attestation. _Mind_ or _thought_ is the general theme. And no, you can't deduce form these two attestation you mentioned that _inclination_ is the primary meaning.


----------



## CyrusSH

This a website about "The Seafarer": The Seafarer



> A translation is faithful when it conveys the meaning, not merely the words, of its original.
> The aim of this translation is to achieve the closest fidelity to its source, in both manner and meaning.
> This text is subject to continuous experiment and improvement.



The Cambridge Old English Reader: _hyge_: "inclination", not primarily "thought"
Anfloga & Wearn _hyge_ unmistakably means "inclination"


----------



## fdb

Persian خوى _xōy_ “character, nature” occurs in Early New Persian also as خوك , like Middle Persian hwk, presumably for /xōg/. Despite the very similar meaning, this has to be kept separate from the Sanskrit _svadhā-_ and Greek _ethos_ < IE *swe-dʰeH- “set in one’s own way”, for which one would expect a New Persian *xway. The Persian forms seem to contain the reflexive possessive pronoun not in the zero-grade (IIr. *swa- > Ir. xʷa-), but in the full grade (IIr. sawa- > Ir. hawa-), yielding something like *hawaka- > *hōk > xōg > xōy.

I do not see any way to connect these words to the Old English _hyge_. At least not for those of us who believe in regular sound correspondences.


----------



## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> This a website about "The Seafarer": The Seafarer
> 
> 
> 
> The Cambridge Old English Reader: _hyge_: "inclination", not primarily "thought"
> Anfloga & Wearn _hyge_ unmistakably means "inclination"


You may add the emotional side _heart_ and _desire_ to what we would today call the intellectual side _mind_ and _thought_. Anglo-Saxon or Danish warriers would not have worried to much about such distinctions. The still doesn't make _inclination_ the main meaning.

But even if it did. There it no half way reliable extra-Germanic link and that is what matters.


----------



## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> Persian خوى _xōy_ “character, nature” occurs in Early New Persian also as خوك , like Middle Persian hwk, presumably for /xōg/. Despite the very similar meaning, this has to be kept separate from the Sanskrit _svadhā-_ and Greek _ethos_ < IE *swe-dʰeH- “set in one’s own way”, for which one would expect a New Persian *xway. The Persian forms seem to contain the reflexive possessive pronoun not in the zero-grade (IIr. *swa- > Ir. xʷa-), but in the full grade (IIr. sawa- > Ir. hawa-), yielding something like *hawaka- > *hōk > xōg > xōy.
> 
> I do not see any way to connect these words to the Old English _hyge_. At least not for those of us who believe in regular sound correspondences.



You are really right, the problem is about PIE words, I have no doubt that there is also a proto-IE like **swe-* which means "bend, crook".


----------



## CyrusSH

I found a word: Germanic etymology : Query result



> Proto-Germanic: *swinkan-, caus. *swankian-, *swankiō, *swanka-z-, *swanka-, *swankra-; *swingán- vb.
> 
> Meaning: *bend, crook*



And if Persian _xu_ can be related to proto-IE pronoun *_swe_/*_se_ then Germanic _xugiz_ could be related to proto-IE pronoun *_kʷe_/*_ḱe_, for the same reason that Avestan _hi_ and English _he_ mean exactly the same.


----------



## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> *_swe_/*_se_ then Germanic _xugiz_


There is no plausible way to get from PIE _*s- _to PGm _*x_.


----------



## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> There is no plausible way to get from PIE _*s- _to PGm _*x_.



Not directly, for example about the word _sister_, it is from proto-IE swésōr, a compound of reflexive pronoun *swé (“self”) and *h₁ésh₂r̥ (“blood”), so it actually means "member of a family", in Middle Persian there is _xwah_ (_xwish_). Is it strange that proto-Germanic *_xiwa_ also means " member of a family"? hewe - Wiktionary

Compare it to Persian _xwa_ and Germanix *_xwa_ "what" ...


----------



## eamp

So your own example illustrates that *s- remains s- in Germanic, I don't really get the point?

As for *_hugiz_, this is just one word of many that is build on a base *hug- in Germanic with general meaning "mind, think, consider; care" or similar.
Examples:
Old English _hycgan_, _hyge_, _hygdig_, _gehygd_, _hyht_, _hoga_, _hogian_, ...
Old High German _hugu_, _huggen_, _hogēn_, _hogazzen_, _gihugt_, _hugida_, ...
Old Norse _huga_, _hyggja_, _hugr_, _hugi_, _hugsa_, _hugna_, _hugð_, ...
Gothic _hugs_, _hugjan_, _gahugds_


----------

