# the identity card in the UK



## DearPrudence

Hello everyone 
I wonder why the British don’t have identity cards. I suppose it seems strange to me because in France we’re so keen on red tape and it seems impossible to live without this precious thing. Yet I wonder for instance how you can take an exam without it. But I guess you can live without it (though some of my students don’t even know where they were born … but is it so important after all?).
So I would like to know why the British have never had identity cards (I’m sorry if I could have found the answer if I had taken more time to find the answer).
And do you think it would be a good thing to introduce it in Britain?

Thank you.

p.s: excuse my English
p.s. to the mods: I’m sorry if I broke any rule asking this question and you can correct the title if it's not grammatically correct. Thanks


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## cuchuflete

Dear Dear Prudence,

Many people have cell phones.  I prefer not to have one.
Many people have televisions. I prefer not to have one.
Many people have body piercings.  I prefer not to....

Some nations have identity cards.  I join the 
English in preferring not to have one.

I do have a few opinions....

As to ID cards, I haven't figured out why or how they would make my life better, although they might be a convenience for many burrrrocrats.


regards,
Cuchuflete


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## belén

Actually I just read last week that a new law / rule or norm of some kind has been approved in the UK to make the ID card a reality...

I'll try to find info on it.

Belén


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## zaby

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> As to ID cards, I haven't figured out why or how they would make my life better, although they might be a convenience for many burrrrocrats.


 
As I don't have a driver's license, without my ID card, I don't know how I would have got my new credit card (or even opened my bank account) or took a plane for a domestic flight.

I think there is no burocracy in this, the ID card is only a document (optional in France) proving my identity. I don't know about the UK but I feel that in the US for instance, the driver license has a function similar to an ID card.


In my opinion, the main issue deals with the kind of information that would be on an ID card. At the moment there are debates in EU (at least in France and in the UK. I think in Germany too) about biometric ID card and its Big Brother potential...


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## Laia

Here you have my silly contribution...  :

The real usefulness of the identity card is that allows you to enter at clubs when you turn 18 years old, period.
lol

And: vote, ask for driving license, travel... and whatever, but basically, to show that you "are of age" (¿? que eres mayor de edad). To prove it.


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## Zakalwe

Like other people, i would like to know how UK citizens do all the things previously said. How can they prove their identity for example during an exam ?

In Spain, they are going to introduce a new generation of ID card that will contain the finger print of the people and more innovation things. I will let other people speak about it as i don't remember all its particularities.


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## la reine victoria

Hi Dear Prudence (my fellow Islander),

During WWII every British subject was issued with an identity card. The card was essential (we are told) to alleviate any doubt that a person was not a true Brit but a German spy. Sitting in my pram, the picture of innocence, did I look like one I wonder?

Being serious, anyone could be stopped by the police or the military and asked to show their ID card. It was a legal requirement to carry it at all times. Failure to produce it could lead to arrest and interrogation.

Many counterfeit ID cards were made in Germany and we were infiltrated by German spies.

The ID card was abolished in 1952, 7 years after the end of the war.

There is currently a great battle going on between the House of Commons and the House of Lords over Blair's proposed legislation on the re- introduction of ID cards in 2008. These proposed cards will have an enormous amount of digital information about each person, including bank account details, a scan of the iris for ID (more accurate than fingerprints), full medical history, marital status, criminal history, national insurance number, date and place of birth, etc. etc. Every card will be linked to a central data base. In other words, Big Brother will be formally created and welcomed by the government!

'The carrying of ID cards will be of great significance in the war against terror,' are the approximate words of Mr Blair. Tell that to the suicide bombers who struck in London on 7/7.

Here is an update on how the Brits are reacting to the proposed cards for which, by the way, they will be expected to pay between £170 and £230 (including free passport). 


LRV


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## belén

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Hi Dear Prudence (my fellow Islander),
> 
> During WWII every British subject was issued with an identity card. The card was essential (we are told) to alleviate any doubt that a person was not a true Brit but a German spy. Sitting in my pram, the picture of innocence, did I look like one I wonder?
> 
> Being serious, anyone could be stopped by the police or the military and asked to show their ID card. It was a legal requirement to carry it at all times. Failure to produce it could lead to arrest and interrogation.
> 
> Many counterfeit ID cards were made in Germany and we were infiltrated by German spies.
> 
> The ID card was abolished in 1952, 7 years after the end of the war.
> 
> There is currently a great battle going on between the House of Commons and the House of Lords over Blair's proposed legislation on the re- introduction of ID cards in 2008. These proposed cards will have an enormous amount of digital information about each person, including bank account details, a scan of the iris for ID (more accurate than fingerprints), full medical history, marital status, criminal history, national insurance number, date and place of birth, etc. etc. Every card will be linked to a central data base. In other words, Big Brother will be formally created and welcomed by the government!
> 
> 'The carrying of ID cards will be of great significance in the war against terror,' are the approximate words of Mr Blair. Tell that to the suicide bombers who struck in London on 7/7.
> 
> Here is an update on how the Brits are reacting to the proposed cards for which, by the way, they will be expected to pay between £170 and £230 (including free passport).
> 
> LRV



Oh gosh... Why can't Mr. Blair find a middle point? Of course I completely disagree with having all my records, medical history and what have you together in a single computer (of course, all those details are out there but I guess it is more difficult to find them and put them all together if someone wants to find out about me)

I think a ID card (simple one) is quite useful, to prove your identity when paying with a credit card, to show you are +18, to have identifying papers with you in case of an accident or a robbery (twice I have been robbed and they located my purse me thanks to my Spanish DNI) 

But I consider what Mr. Blair proposes highly dangerous and useless. And the price!!!  How cheaky!! 

B


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## Dr. Quizá

Here is some info on some DNI (National Identification Document):

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNI#En_Espa.C3.B1a

The current Spanish DNI has some personal data of its owner: a colour photo, name, first and second surnames and hand signature on the front; birth place and date, sex, current address and parents' first names on the back. Nothing special. Previous DNI also had a fingerprint. Of course, every DNI has a unique number, *which is used very often*.

It's made out of a special paper (like the used in money notes) with some security measures. AFAIK it's impossible to make a fake perfect one.

It's like a credit card, but thinner, is the best way to prove who you are, it is valid in all the European Union (plus Andorra and Switzerland, I think, sou you don't need a passport there) and never in my life I had to show it to whom it may not concern. So, what is the problem? It's not a way to know which party I voted nor has camera that records what I do in the bathroom...


Soon there will be a new electronic DNI, which will add a chip with the same data that are printed, an electronic signature (that's cool!) and a scanned fingerprint. I'd like to have my medical history in the chip too... See a sample here:

http://www.laguiainter.net/docs/EDNII.jpg


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## lampiao

There are always arguments for or against any idea (well, at least for most of them).
It'd be good to have, for eg, a person's DNA on an ID card. 
That'd make it easier to find those guilty of crimes, particularly violent crimes, without having to ask people to voluntarily supply a sample, as I've read on british news over the murder of a 18 year old girl.

On the other hand, big brother watching over us all is an real issue, but I think eventually it will in fact be in control. 

I figure the next stage is having a chip under your skin. "You can't lose it, and you won't forget it at home" will be an argument...

In Portugal everyone has an ID card, and it is required for several things, such as opening bank accounts, getting a package, sent to you, from the post office, you name it...

I think ID cards are OK, as long as they're not prying. What LRV said is a bit scary, both because of the amount of information they want to have, and the price they'll be asking for it!


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## maxiogee

This non-IdentityCardness is not exclusive within Europe to the British.
We Irish have never had them.


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## Dr. Quizá

BTW, I'd like to know what is the relation between the ID card and the "bigbrotherness"


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## la reine victoria

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> BTW, I'd like to know what is the relation between the ID card and the "bigbrotherness"


 

*'Big Brother is watching you'* became a well-known cliché from the *novel* '1984' by George Orwell. In case you aren't familiar with this work, it foretells a future time when government will have complete control over the people and be able to see everything they do.

Some people say that Britain is now living in Orwellian time. We have CCTV everywhere. There is a debate currently going on about abolishing road tax and charging car drivers for each mile they drive. Cars will be fitted with a transmitter and their every move will be tracked by satellite.

We have speed cameras installed along roadsides which take a picture of the number plate of any car going only 1 mile faster than the speed limit. The car is traced through the Vehicle Licensing Department and a hefty fine imposed on the driver. The UK government is raking in £millions each year by this 'stealth tax'.

It isn't too far fetched to say that soon we will all be micro-chipped and tracked by satellite.

As for tiny hidden cameras in hotel room ceilings and public lavatories . . . . . . .

I think in some places they are already installed!

That ghastly TV programme 'Big Brother' is named from Orwell's phrase.

NB: I am not paranoid. 


LRV


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## la reine victoria

> Originally posted by *Zakalwe*
> Like other people, i would like to know how UK citizens do all the things previously said. How can they prove their identity for example during an exam ?


 
There are no problems with taking exams. School or university registration ensures that each pupil/student has a personal number. Major exam papers are stamped with this number and the invigilators will be staff members who know each candidate personally.

For things such as a driving licence or passport, the applicant has to provide his/her birth certificate together with certain other documents, such as a Medical Card (issued on day of registration of birth), a Certificate of Marriage, or a State Benefit Book.

I believe young people can now obtain a type of ID card which gives their date of birth and has a photograph affixed. These cards, again, require a birth certificate and other documentary evidence.

Edit: To have all this information carried in one all-purpose ID card would obviously have its benefits. It's the 'prevention of terrorism' aspect which I find to be a 'cover' for 'total governmental control'. 


LRV


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## oxazol

If the main reason to not have IDcard is that the goverment knows all your data...... I think that this is a very naive theory. 
Really, do you think that your goverment cannot know what it want about you without ID card..... ?????
LOL


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## maxiogee

It is not, oxazol, that people object to 'the Government' knowing all about us, it is 
a) the centralising of all the discrete bits about us which various government departments know (and need to know)
b) what government employees would have access to that amalgamated information (much of it not pertinent to many of the people who might have legitimate reasons to see one's file for some purpose
c) the right to know what information is held about one, and 
...c1) the right to have erroneous information changed promptly
d) who, apart from government employees, might be allowed access to the information?
...d1) Would powerful individual members of a Government be able to resist the urge to seek out 'dirt' on political opponents?
...d2) Would all governments be able to resist the approaches of commercial interests who would dearly love access to the powerful marketing tool such a database could be turned into. It has been well said that information is power.
e) would a government be able to resist affording "allies" in times of trouble (such as a war on terror) glimpses of people's personal data.
and my final question,
f) am I paranoid?


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## Dr. Quizá

maxiogee said:
			
		

> f) am I paranoid?



Yes 

That is very "1984", but it has nothing to do with ID cards.


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## maxiogee

The information about one is to be coded onto the ID card proposed in the UK.
Make no mistake, the proposed UK scheme is vastly different from what most people understand by the expression "ID card". There will be a lot more than Name, Address and dare of birth on them.


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## Dr. Quizá

Maybe it would have more info than the Spanish DNI, but the DNI number is the key to access to your data in Spanish administration. I mean that if you input your DNI number into a computer of the work service (I don't know the exact name for this), you'll see your work history. If you insert it in a computer of the health system, you'll see your medical history and so on, but all that data are confidential except to who it may concern. Private organizations, like banks, also use DNI number since it's unique and reliable.

But I'm sure you can do almost the same in almost every country right now using your full name an some extra data like you address or something like that.

What kind of dangerous info will the UK IDC have?


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## bernik

_"If the main reason to not have IDcard is that the goverment knows all your data...... I think that this is a very naive theory"_

I agree. The debate in the English news media about identity cards is absurd. If the English news media are concerned about bigbrotherness, they should start by dismantling themselves. They should demand the abolition of the BBC. And they should ask for real democracy (as found in Switzerland, for example).


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## bernik

If the administration kept a genetic print of each individual in a country, I think it would have more advantages than inconvenients. There would be fewer rapes. More murderers would be caught. It would be safer to walk in the streets at night. Overall, there would be much more freedom.


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## la reine victoria

oxazol said:
			
		

> If the main reason to not have IDcard is that the goverment knows all your data...... I think that this is a very naive theory.
> Really, do you think that your goverment cannot know what it want about you without ID card..... ?????
> LOL


 
I'm sure the government does know all about me and, as a law-abiding person, I really don't mind.

What irks me about the present government is its 'open door' policy, allowing free entry to anyone who cares to come and stay here. Great Britain is a very small place and resources are heavily over-stretched - doctors' surgeries, hospitals, schools, social services are all struggling to cope with demand and standards are falling. I can't even be registered with a dentist where I live on the Isle of Wight. Even the private practitioners' patient lists are full. So I don't get regular check-ups.

To get to the point, this insane 'open door' policy of Mr. Blair and his Cabinet ('Tony's Cronies' as they are unaffectionately known) has led to an influx of Islamic extremists who preach hatred towards the people whose country they are now living in (in other words towards the British). The extremists have been influencing young, impressionable Moslems, four of whom who took the message to heart and became suicide bombers in London last July.

Because of this, and the almost certain possibility that further bombings will happen, Mr Blair has decided, in his 'wisdom'? that everyone in Britain should, in future, be forced to pay quite a lot of money for the mandatory 'privilege' of carrying an ID card - all in the interests of preventing terrorism. To which I say 'Pish!'

You may be surprised, even shocked, to know that in Britain people can create new identities for themselves by 'stealing' the name and date of birth of a person who has died. They can go to the Record Office and study the registers. They find someone in the Deaths Register who is closest in age to themselves, then obtain a copy of that person's birth certificate. Using this copy (claiming they have lost the original) they are able to fraudulently claim Social Security Benefits, obtain a passport, driving licence, etc. They assume the deceased person's identity. No matter what their ethnic race is, they will usually be able to find a matching death certificate since Britain is now a multi-racial society.

Please note carefully that I am in no way racist. But how I deplore this despicable act of stealing the identity of a dead person. Who knows - they may even steal the identity of a living person, using a copy birth certificate. There may be several Reine Victorias going around with my identity. What a thought - one Reine Victoria is enough for anyone to have to deal with! 

So, Oxazo, you will see how easy it is to misuse documents in the UK. The only redeeming feature of the proposed ID cards is that they will carry a scan of the holder's iris (the coloured ring around the pupil of the eye, in case anyone doesn't understand the word 'iris'). This is unique to every individual (isn't God marvellous? - even identical twins don't have the same iris pattern).

But just consider the cost of this, using taxpayer's money. If you are interested, see here for details of the estimated £18billion. Imagine what this money could be better spent on. I, and my fellow Isle of Wight residents, could perhaps receive dental care. The *whole population* of Britain could perhaps receive dental care. We might, just might, manage to eradicate the deadly MRSA virus which kills over 20,000 hospital patients per annum, and rising. Healthy people can go into hospital for relatively minor surgical procedures and *die* from this infection. Maybe the sick elderly could be cared for in retirement homes without having to sell their house and belogings to raise money for the exorbitant cost of this care.

This is why 'thinking' people in the UK are objecting to the proposed scheme for ID cards.

Now I'd better get off my soap box!


LRV


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## maxiogee

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> Maybe it would have more info than the Spanish DNI, but the DNI number is the key to access to your data in Spanish administration. I mean that if you input your DNI number into a computer of the work service (I don't know the exact name for this), you'll see your work history. If you insert it in a computer of the health system, you'll see your medical history and so on, but all that data are confidential except to who it may concern. Private organizations, like banks, also use DNI number since it's unique and reliable.
> 
> But I'm sure you can do almost the same in almost every country right now using your full name an some extra data like you address or something like that.
> 
> What kind of dangerous info will the UK IDC have?



As I said, it's not the information that people object to, it's the accessibility of it.
At present only my doctor can see my health details - would you like an employer to be able to access that sort of information?
Or 
Does your tax information need to be available to your dentist?

The information which Government departments hold on people is all held separately on computers which have no access to each other - they don't *need* access to each other.
The British government's intention is to hold all data on the card itself and this would mean allowing different government departments to access each other's records.

I don't see that any discussion of ID cards has to do with the British mass media needing to "dismantle" themselves. As for "the abolition of the BBC", only a fan of the Rupert Murdoch school of "Independent & Investigative Journalism" would propose that.
That's so far off-topic as to stretch the mind.


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## oxazol

I'm really surprised about your unreasonable fears to give your data. I don't know if you could do it (Does your tax information need to be available to your dentist?) but I can say that at least in Spain, every administration agent can only get your information concerning to his job: taxes for one and medical information for another one, and troubles with the law for another one. 
It is not so easy as you say and you think to cross these data.

Regarding to the fake ID's: How can you say this?
If it's easy doing a fake ID (I don't think it at all; you should see for example a spanish IDcard) how much easier it's to falsify a no ID, I mean, another kind of unsafe card with your name and/or your adress?


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## Dr. Quizá

Well, I guess that access to the card data will be not so easy and not so free. There must be some kind of data encryption and several access levels, not just embedded raw data.


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## maxiogee

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> Well, I guess that access to the card data will be not so easy and not so free. There must be some kind of data encryption and several access levels, not just embedded raw data.



To the best of my knowledge no assurances have yet been given on anything involved in the proposal.


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## cirrus

For me several issues come up:

In the UK we associate ID cards  with war or occupation by an invading army. We are not living in a war torn country
The cost will be huge, ditto the bureaucracy
The justification for the card - that it will somehow prevent terrorism - I find patently absurd.
With photo ID on my driver's licence and my various credit cards - which are now chipped and pinned - I can already prove my ID.
It will be something I am bound to lose and will be a pain to replace.
I simply don't believe the government when it says the scheme will be voluntary, government can revoke this at at any time.  This in effect means a crime of not having an ID card will be created.
Overall the resistance to the card is not so much about the card but the feeling that technology is being used to observe us but not interact.  Each time I go on the street I am already surveyed by the state.  I work in one of the most surveyed areas in Europe.  
The CCTV cameras in Stratford E15 are linked to computers which can work out from the dimensions of your face who you are and can track you over a wide area.  More info about this on this link 
I just don't feel comfortable with this.  If you want to stop crime, invest in resources to prevent it, or get more police. Don't treat us all as though we were criminals.


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## terol

cirrus said:
			
		

> For me several issues come up:
> 
> In the UK we associate ID cards with war or occupation by an invading army. We are not living in a war torn country
> The cost will be huge, ditto the bureaucracy
> The justification for the card - that it will somehow prevent terrorism - I find patently absurd.
> With photo ID on my driver's licence and my various credit cards - which are now chipped and pinned - I can already prove my ID.
> It will be something I am bound to lose and will be a pain to replace.
> I simply don't believe the government when it says the scheme will be voluntary, government can revoke this at at any time. This in effect means a crime of not having an ID card will be created..


Totally agree with all of the above.  
It seems that the idea of not having a national ID card is quite a strange concept for people from certain other European countries, although maybe they'd also think it's strange that (for example) our police service doesn't carry firearms... but I'm glad about that too.
Rather than the supposed "paranoia" that exists here about ID cards (apparently whipped up by the British media, whose every word we believe, obviously), I'd say it would be much better described as *skepticism*, as demonstrated perfectly in the messages above from the other UK forum users.
Reading some of the other messages, what surprises me is the apparent naivety of people who think that having such a card is undeniably a good thing, and even that there would be "more freedom"  if we had them... sorry, but can't get my head around that one.


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## bernik

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I don't see that any discussion of ID cards has to do with the British mass media needing to "dismantle" themselves.


What I mean is that I have been hearing the big brother argument a lot on the BBC about the ID card, and it sounds ridiculous to me, because what reminds me of an orwellian society is the BBC itself.

_"That's so far off-topic as to stretch the mind."_

Really !?

_"Does your tax information need to be available to your dentist?"_

Here is something far-fetched: being afraid that your dentist will be given access to your tax information. Anyway, why would an identity card number be more efficient than a national insurance number as a way of regrouping personal information ?

_"The British government's intention is to hold all data on the card itself"_

I think it is more likely there will just be a code number on the card.


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## cuchuflete

bernik said:
			
		

> If the administration kept a genetic print of each individual in a country, I think it would have more advantages than inconvenients. *There would be fewer rapes.* More murderers would be caught. It would be safer to walk in the streets at night. Overall, there would be much more freedom.




Goodness!  It had never occurred to me that rapists and murderers would present their ID cards in advance of committing their respective crimes.

Ahhh, of course every self-respecting bank robber wouldn't dare leave home without her card.  Though I fail to see how
having a card on one's person would lead to a greater rate of
capture, unless the robbers were courteous enough to display their cards to the bank employees....

Would my logical capacity ranking be embedded in my card?


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## bernik

Well, maybe you are right. Maybe I should avoid mixing different issues together. I think that having one's genetic print recorded somewhere in a police lab can be disturbing in the same way as it is disturbing to know that a lot of information about yourself is kept in government computers. But it carries a lot of advantages too. That is why I mentioned the genetic information question. I know it is not the same as the ID card question, but I think it bears some similarity. I am sorry I caused confusion. I know ID cards won't help the police catch burglars, but still, it will help prevent some abuse of the law.


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## maxiogee

bernik said:
			
		

> _
> __"Does your tax information need to be available to your dentist?"_
> 
> Here is something far-fetched: being afraid that your dentist will be given access to your tax information.



My reason for making that particular point was to indicate that one's dentist has no need to know the level of one's income. Knowing that _could_ encourage unscrupulous people to raise their charges.


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## la reine victoria

You're lucky to have a dentist, Maxiogee. Isle of Wight smiles are reminiscent of a row of bombed houses or a derelict graveyard. Proposals have been mooted by the Council for trips from Portsmouth to Cherbourg for dental treatment. 'All aboard the Tooth Ferry' was the front page announcement in the local newspaper.

Some enterprising islanders have set up business as 'tooth extractors while you wait'. Only the other day a tooth extractor called at my home, waving a pair of pliers, and asked me if I was 'interested in business'. I told him I preferred the 'cotton and door-knob method' which prompted him to whip out a reel of strong cotton and say 'I'd be happy to slam the door for you Missus - show me your ID card first though.'


LRV


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## Brioche

There is a government file for everyone in UK who has had dealings with the National Health Service or Inland Revenue or the Department for Work and Pensions [which must be pretty much the entire population].

There is no real need for an ID card to store any information about you. Your individual ID number can be linked to all the info the government already has.


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## la reine victoria

*Scary facts!*

I have just received this email from a friend. I thought it would be appropriate to post it here. 

I was totally unaware of the full implications of the proposed ID card. I don't like what I see. 

The source is known to me and I have no doubts as to his veracity.



This comes from a *Queen's Counsel*.
Subject: Compulsory ID Cards

You may have heard that legislation creating compulsory ID Cards passed
a crucial stage in the House of Commons. You may feel that ID cards are 
not something to worry about, since we already have Photo ID for our 
Passport and Driving License and an ID Card will be no different to that. 
What you have not been told is the full scope of this proposed ID Card, and what it will mean to you personally.

The proposed ID Card will be different from any card you now hold. It will
be connected to a database called the NIR, (National Identity Register)., 
where all of your personal details will be stored. This will include the 
unique number that will be issued to you, your fingerprints, a scan of the 
back of your eye, and your photograph.

Your name, address and date of birth will also obviously be stored there. 
There will be spaces on this database for your religion, residence status, 
and many other private and personal facts about you.
There is unlimited space for every other detail of your life on the NIR 
database, which can be expanded by the Government with or without
further Acts of Parliament.

By itself, you might think that this register is harmless, but you would be 
wrong to come to this conclusion. This new card will be used
to check your identity against your entry in the register in real time, 
whenever you present it to 'prove who you are'.

Every place that sells alcohol or cigarettes, every post office, every 
pharmacy, and every Bank will have an NIR Card Terminal, (very much like the Chip and Pin Readers that are everywhere now) into which your
card can be 'swiped' to check your identity. Each time this happens, a 
record is made at the NIR of the time and place that the Card was 
presented. This means for example, that there will be a government record of every time you withdraw more than £99 at your branch of Nat West, who now demand ID for these transactions. Every time you have to prove that you are over 18, your card will be swiped, and a record made at the NIR. 

Restaurants and off licenses will demand that your card is swiped so that 
each receipt shows that they sold alcohol to someone over 18, and that 
this was proved by the access to the NIR, indemnifying them from prosecution.


Private businesses are going to be given access to the NIR Database.
If you want to apply for a job, you will have to present your card for a 
swipe. If you want to apply for a London Underground Oyster Card, or a 
supermarket loyalty card, or a driving license, you will have to present 
your ID Card for a swipe. The same goes for getting a telephone line or a
mobile phone or an internet account. Oyster, DVLA, BT and Nectar (for 
example) all run very detailed databases of their own. 

They will be allowed access to the NIR, just as every other business will be. This means that each of these entities will be able to store your unique number in their database, and place all your travel, phone records, driving activities and detailed shopping habits under your unique NIR number.

These databases, which can easily fit on a storage device the size of your hand, will be sold to third parties either legally or illegally.
It will then be possible for a non governmental entity to create a detailed 
dossier of all your activities. Certainly, the government will have 
clandestine access to all of them, meaning that they will have a complete
record of all your movements, from how much and when you withdraw from your bank account to what medications you are taking,
down to the level of what sort of bread you eat - all accessible via a 
single unique number in a central database.
This is quite a significant leap from a simple ID Card that shows your name
and face. Most people do not know that this is the true character and scope of the proposed ID Card. Whenever the details of how it will work are explained to them, they quickly change from being ambivalent towards it.

The Government is going to compel you to enter your details into the NIR 
and to carry this card. If you and your children want to obtain or renew 
your passports, you will be forced to have your fingerprints taken and your eyes scanned for the NIR, and an ID Card will be issued to you whether you want one or not. If you refuse to be fingerprinted and eye scanned, you will not be able to get a passport. Your ID Card will, just like your passport, not be your property. The Home Secretary will have the right to revoke or suspend your ID at any time, meaning that you will not be able to withdraw money from your Bank Account, for example, or do anything that requires you to present your government issued ID Card.

The arguments that have been put forwarded in favor of ID Cards can be 
easily disproved. ID Cards will not stop terrorists; every Spaniard has a 
compulsory ID Card as did the Madrid Bombers. ID Cards will not eliminate
'benefit fraud', which in any case, is small compared to the astronomical 
cost of this proposal, which will be measured in billions according to the LSE. This scheme exists solely to exert total surveillance and control over the ordinary free British Citizen, and it will line the pockets of the companies that will create the computer systems at the expense of your freedom, privacy and money.

If you did not know the full scope of the proposed ID Card Scheme before and you are as unsettled as I am at what it really means to you, to this 
country and its way of life, I urge you to email or photocopy this and give it to your friends and colleagues. The Bill has proceeded to this stage due to the lack of accurate and complete information on this proposal being made public.


LRV


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## cirrus

Jesus, that is truly hideous.  Can you PM me some more details on the source - I've been meaning to lobby my MP about this and it would be good to put this to her.


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## maxiogee

Would it be too assumptive of me, lrv, to take ity for granted that you have independently verified the content of that most startling of messages?


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## LadyBlakeney

I'm very sorry, Your Royal Majesty, but that looks a lot like a 'hoax' to me. Anyway, if a reliable source can be consulted, I'd be really interested to know it.


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## cirrus

If it is a quote it is quite believable.  The point is that passports don't have proof of address.  Unless you are a driver and you have an up to date driver's licence there isn't currently a single document that proves that this is you and that you live at whatever your address is.  

When you open a bank account here at the moment ID is verified via references, confirmation that you receive utility and (landline) phone bills at your address, other bank accounts and your passport if you have one.  

The reality of the British legal system is that once something is in place it is quite easy to modify its use eg make both holding and carrying ID compulsory despite current promises to the contrary.


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## la reine victoria

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Would it be too assumptive of me, lrv, to take ity for granted that you have independently verified the content of that most startling of messages?


 

No, Maxiogee, to either of your questions. All I can say is that the person who sent it is a man of great integrity and high principles. The QC gleaned the information from a chum in the House of Lords (home of many a Senior Judge). I am told that he then questioned all the members of the Shadow Cabinet (possibly over a few gin and tonics in one of the Commons' bars) to see if they knew exactly what the ID card implied. They either knew or feigned ignorance.

I 'phoned my friend about this last night. It gets even worse! Apparently the new 'chip and pin' card system is already relaying all your financial activities to the NIR. How much you withdraw from a cash machine and the balance in your account is readily available to the prying eyes of 'Big Brother'. If you use your card in the supermarket, BB will know if you have a predilection for black pudding or 'ready to eat' processed meals. You might get a letter from the Department of Health saying, 'Dear Maxiogee, We notice that you are not eating the recommended diet. You are not having your portion of 'five fruit and veg' a day. You are still having an Ulster Fry using* lard*.  To avoid cluttering up our hospital beds please eat sensibly.'

As a smoker I might get, 'Dear Queen Victoria, We notice that you are buying too many fags. Please see your GP for help on giving up smoking.'

A purchaser of large quantities of condoms might get a letter saying, 'Dear Mr xxxxxx, We are delighted to see that you are practising 'safe sex' and that you will not be adding to our over-burdened STDs clinics. Please accept this Boots' voucher, entitling you to 100 free condoms, as a 'thank you' gift.

We'll just have to wait and see, Maxiogee. I regard George Orwell as a true prophet.


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## la reine victoria

LadyBlakeney said:
			
		

> I'm very sorry, Your Royal Majesty, but that looks a lot like a 'hoax' to me. Anyway, if a reliable source can be consulted, I'd be really interested to know it.


 

Ever gracious Lady B,

Hoax or not, your turn will be coming soon. During Blair's Presidency of the EU in 2005 he made it pretty clear that this system will be applied to all EU member states.

It already exists in several other countries outside the EU, notably China.

As I said to Maxiogee, we'll have to wait and see. I foresee a mass closing down of bank accounts, and people hiding their money under the mattress at home. They will forsake their 'chip and pin' cards and pay for everything in cash.

If the government has knowledge of how much money you have then this poses serious threats on many issues. An example is care of the elderly in residential nursing homes. This is means tested by the National Health Service - if you are poor and have no assets then it should be provided free of charge. Those who are property owners, and have a relative living with them to care for them, are obliged to sell their property to cover the extremely high cost of residential care. This then leaves the caring relative homeless.

As I said, dear Lady B, we'll just have to wait and see.

Wikipedia has this to say on the matter - 
*



			<H3>Penalties
		
Click to expand...

*


> Failure to inform the Government of a change of address or other personal details will result in a fine of £1,000, while the fine for refusing to register or failing to submit to scanning will be £2,500.
> The Government has decided that civil rather than criminal penalties will apply. This could allow those rich enough to do so - including those supported by criminal organisations - to avoid registration and pay the fines imposed.
> 
> 
> So much for the choice of 'voluntary' or 'mandatory' registration.
> 
> 
> LRV


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## dathrilla

cirrus said:
			
		

> For me several issues come up:
> *In the UK we associate ID cards  with war or occupation by an invading army. We are not living in a war torn country*
> The cost will be huge, ditto the bureaucracy
> The justification for the card - that it will somehow prevent terrorism - I find patently absurd.
> With photo ID on my driver's licence and my various credit cards - which are now chipped and pinned - I can already prove my ID.
> It will be something I am bound to lose and will be a pain to replace.
> I simply don't believe the government when it says the scheme will be voluntary, government can revoke this at at any time.  This in effect means a crime of not having an ID card will be created.
> Overall the resistance to the card is not so much about the card but the feeling that technology is being used to observe us but not interact.  Each time I go on the street I am already surveyed by the state.  I work in one of the most surveyed areas in Europe.
> The CCTV cameras in Stratford E15 are linked to computers which can work out from the dimensions of your face who you are and can track you over a wide area.  More info about this on this
> I just don't feel comfortable with this.  If you want to stop crime, invest in resources to prevent it, or get more police. Don't treat us all as though we were criminals.



I don't agree with the bolded phrase on top. I don't think Switzerland is a war torn invaded country, and i'm pretty sure it has never been invaded  by any body.  However, every single Swiss citizen still has a ID card with their whole life digitally scanned on it. Their card really facilitates their daily life : eg. you could swap your card at casinos to enter, enter and exit the country , etc.


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## cirrus

You might not agree, but it nevertheless it is a widespread sentiment in the UK.


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## bernik

_"it is a widespread sentiment in the UK"_

Especially in the media and leftist organisations.
It defies common sense.

It is part of the general English distrust of things European.
Let's have more third-world immigration rather than a European ID card !


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## la reine victoria

> Originally posted by *Bernik*
> Let's have more third-world immigration rather than a European ID card !


 
The UK has an open-door policy on immigration, Bernik. *All welcome*.  But they'll still be getting an ID card.


LRV


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## cirrus

bernik said:
			
		

> _"it is a widespread sentiment in the UK"_
> 
> Especially in the media and leftist organisations.


As a matter of fact I think you will find the disquiet covers the spectrum from the right to the left. The right from the perspective that this is a huge inflation of state power and intervention in the lives of the citizen, the left that it will encroach on personal liberty and become of a tool of institutional racism.

As for it being about anti European sentiment I beg to differ.  It isn't just about having a card, it's about what it is going to be used for and what data will be kept, including biometric data. I can't imagine what is being proposed being constitutional in Germany, it wouldn't have a chance of getting past the Data Protection rules there.


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## LadyBlakeney

cirrus said:
			
		

> As for it being about anti European sentiment I beg to differ.  *It isn't just about having a card, it's about what it is going to be used for and what data will be kept*, including biometric data. I can't imagine what is being proposed being constitutional in Germany, it wouldn't have a chance of getting past the Data Protection rules there.



What cirrus says in bold is key to this discussion, in my opinion. In Spain we've had an ID card since before I was born but, although its origin can be found in the dictatorship's aim to control its citizens, nowadays it is more of an assistance than a hindrance. It is not a magnetic card nor does it store any data apart from what is shown on it (that is, your photograph, name and address, fingerprint and your parents' first names). In this sense it holds as much information as an US driving license, I think. 

Should we end up being monitored in a "Big Brother" sort of way, I think I'd head for the Barbados...


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## bernik

cirrus said:
			
		

> the disquiet covers the spectrum from the right to the left


But there is a whole range of issues where the right wing representatives (politicians and newspapers) lack the courage to defend right wing positions. The most obvious example is immigration. Maybe it is the same for the ID card question. I think one hundred years ago, it made sense for conservatives to be against the introduction of ID cards, but not today.

_"As for it being about anti European sentiment I beg to differ. It isn't just about having a card, it's about what it is going to be used for and what data will be kept, including biometric data."_

But still, you often hear the argument that identity cards go against British tradition. You said yourself that in the UK you associate ID cards with war or occupation by an invading army. As far as I am concerned, what really goes against British tradition is immigration. Until very recently, Britain used to be a white country.

_"The right from the perspective that this is a huge inflation of state power and intervention in the lives of the citizen,"_

They must be blind. What had a tremendous impact on people's lives (for the worse) was government sponsored immigration. But you cannot complain about that. You are supposed to complain about having an ID card imposed on you !

_"the left that it will encroach on personal liberty and become of a tool of institutional racism."_

By which they mean that ID cards will be used to stop illegal immigration and terrorism. Bearded Arabs will be asked for their ID cards more often than white people, which is a terrible humiliation. Well, I don't mind being asked for my ID card ten times a day.

PS: I am sorry if I am off-topic, but I really see a link between immigration and the ID card.


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