# H as in herb [pronunciation] (and other herb- words)



## Cracker Jack

How is the word herb pronounced? Is the h mute or not? At first I thought it was to be mute like hour.  But then I hear more and more people pronounce or aspirate the h. 

Thanks a lot.


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## JamesM

As far as I know, it is generally pronounced in BE and generally not pronounced in AE.


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## Davidvs91

In AE, the h is silent when referring to the vegetation.  It is pronounced when referring to the name Herb[ert].

I believe there is a AE / BE difference.


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## JamesM

Oddly enough, though, in AE we pronounce the "h" in "herbacious border."


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## ewie

Yes, it has a sounded _h_ in BE


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## Porteño

ewie said:


> Yes, it has a sounded _h_ in BE


 
Unless you hail from '_cockneyland'_!


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## ewie

Porteño said:


> Unless you hail from '_cockneyland'_!


Oh yes ... or any of the _other_ places in the UK where _h_'s aren't sounded


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## Cracker Jack

Thanks a lot JamesM, Davidvs91, ewie and Porteño for your replies.  Now it's just another AE/BE matter.  But I hope there are less of these so our learners do not get confused.


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## Porteño

Cracker Jack said:


> Thanks a lot JamesM, Davidvs91, ewie and Porteño for your replies. Now it's just another AE/BE matter. But I hope there are less of these so our learners do not get confused.


 
I'm afraid that's rather a fond wish - there are an uncountable host of such differences just between those two, without thinking about those from AuE, NzE, WI-E and SA-E - it's never-ending, but a lot of fun! Learners are not the only ones who get confused, but this happens with other languages too, particularly Spanish and Portuguese.

Just in case somebody is confused - WI-E = West Indian; SA-E = South African.


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## MarcB

To compound matters some AE speakers do pronounce the h, as was mentioned some BE speakers do not. So I would rather classify it as a difference in English, not an AE vs BE distinction


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## natkretep

I sound the /h/. I'm confident that it is sounded too in Australia and New Zealand.


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## mplsray

I'm originally from Central Illinois and pronounce the _h_ in _herb _I assumed this was a regional difference, but the following, from the Wiktionary entry "herb," does not agree:


> US pronunciation of the word varies; some speakers include the h-sound and others omit it, with the h-less pronunciation being the more common. Individual speakers are consistent in their choice, but the choice does not appear to be correlated with any regional, socioeconomic, or educational distinctions. Some UK dialects may also follow the h-dropping pronunciation.


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## sound shift

I sound the /h/ in "herb".
I sound the /h/ in the name "Herbert"
Cassell's Dictionary of Slang offers "herbert" and "'erbert" for 'a simple person'.


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## JamesM

I'm not sure I understand your comment, sound shift.  I imagine you don't pronounce the /h/ in honor but you do in honey.  The fact that herb and Herbert start with the same letters doesn't provide any particular guide to pronunciation.


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## sound shift

James, I only mentioned "Herbert" because another member did so at post 3.





> The fact that herb and Herbert start with the same letters doesn't provide any particular guide to pronunciation.


Agreed.


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## Myridon

JamesM said:


> The fact that herb and Herbert start with the same letters doesn't provide any particular guide to pronunciation.


The fact that the exact same letters may be pronounced differently in "Herb, pass the herb." does seem worth mentioning to some of us.


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## JamesM

sound shift said:


> James, I only mentioned "Herbert" because another member did so at post 3.Agreed.



Ah. Sorry... I missed the post from six years ago.  Now I understand the connection.

[To come totally clean, I was reading more into sound shift's post than was actually there.  I thought he was saying "because I pronounce the 'h' in Herbert I pronounce the 'h' in herb."  He didn't say anything of the sort.  I apologize for adding my own assumptions to the post.]


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## Wordsmyth

MarcB said:


> To compound matters some AE speakers do pronounce the h, as was mentioned some BE speakers do not. So I would rather classify it as a difference in English, not an AE vs BE distinction


 But there *is* an AE/BE distinction. BE speakers who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do it because they drop all their _'h'_s. So in BE you'll hear either _"herbs for Herbert"_ or _" 'erbs for 'erbert ". _Whereas in AE, those who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do so because they consider it the correct pronunciation of that particular word, so they say _" 'erbs for Herbert ".
_


JamesM said:


> Oddly enough, though, in AE we pronounce the "h" in "herbacious border."


 Would that also be true for "herbivorous" and "herbivore", James?

If so, a sentence such as "Herbert makes herbal tea from the herbs in his herbaceous border, if the local herbivores don't eat them first" would need a certain mental agility.
Would that be three sounded herby _'h'_s and two silent ones? For me it's simple: I pronounce them all.

Ws


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## Copyright

Wordsmyth said:


> But there *is* an AE/BE distinction. BE speakers who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do it because they drop all their _'h'_s. So in BE you'll hear either _"herbs for Herbert"_ or _" 'erbs for 'erbert ". _Whereas in AE, those who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do so because they consider it the correct pronunciation of that particular word, so they say _" 'erbs for Herbert "._


That sounds right to me. 

mplsray in post 14 mentions that he's from Central Illinois and pronounces the H. I'm originally from Missouri, with a bit of Ohio, but mainly suburban Chicago and in all three locations the H was _not_ pronounced, i.e. 'erb. 





> Would that also be true for "herbivorous" and "herbivore", James?


It was only for 'erb -- everything else had the H pronounced. And I didn't give it any thought at all. Frankly, I never even noticed until this post.


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## loghrat

natkretep said:


> I sound the /h/. I'm confident that it is sounded too in Australia and New Zealand.



It is, indeed. At least, in Australia.


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## JamesM

Wordsmyth said:


> But there *is* an AE/BE distinction. BE speakers who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do it because they drop all their _'h'_s. So in BE you'll hear either _"herbs for Herbert"_ or _" 'erbs for 'erbert ". _Whereas in AE, those who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do so because they consider it the correct pronunciation of that particular word, so they say _" 'erbs for Herbert ".
> _ Would that also be true for "herbivorous" and "herbivore", James?
> 
> If so, a sentence such as "Herbert makes herbal tea from the herbs in his herbaceous border, if the local herbivores don't eat them first" would need a certain mental agility.
> Would that be three sounded herby _'h'_s and two silent ones? For me it's simple: I pronounce them all.
> 
> Ws



It always seems simpler when it's what you're used to.    I would pronounce all the  "t"s in the "ant"s in this sentence, while many BE speakers I have heard would make an exception for "restaurant" (pronouncing it something like "restohrawh(n)", closer to the French) and also on the "piquant":

From my point of view "In a vibrant restaurant the couple asked the waiter to decant some of the restaurant's piquant house wine" would need a certain mental agility.

James


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## Wordsmyth

JamesM said:


> _[...] _From my point of view "In a vibrant restaurant the couple asked the waiter to decant some of the restaurant's piquant house wine" would need a certain mental agility.
> 
> James


 Granted.

I'm still curious about which words with the root 'herb' (that's the root of the word, not the plant! ) are usually pronounced with a silent _h _in AmE. Copyright suggests that "it was only for 'erb -- everything else had the H pronounced"; but I'm sure I've often heard _'erbal_.

Ws


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## Copyright

I should have been more specific – 'erbal would have been all right at the time I was saying 'erb.  it was herbivore and the like that would have retained the H.

Now I pronounce them all with an H – protective colouration.


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## Schimmelreiter

JamesM said:


> herbacious


Is this AmE spelling? (cf. _herbaceous_)


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## Copyright

You can use onelook.com to check spellings. In this case, I imagine it was a typo – I should know; I'm an expert at them.


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## JamesM

Yes, it was a typo.


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## mplsray

Wordsmyth said:


> I'm still curious about which words with the root 'herb' (that's the root of the word, not the plant! ) are usually pronounced with a silent _h _in AmE. Copyright suggests that "it was only for 'erb -- everything else had the H pronounced"; but I'm sure I've often heard _'erbal_.



All the pronunciations shown in the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary are based upon actual evidence of use which Merriam-Webster editors have been collecting since the 1930s, this according to the Guide to Pronunciation section of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th ed. All the words beginning with _herb-_ are shown as being pronounced both with and without an initial /h/. Only the word _herb_ shows any regional difference: "\'ərb _US also & Brit usu _'hərb\" with all the other pronunciations shown as beginning with "\(h)ərb-\". The only exception was _anguis in herba, _Latin for "snake in the grass", found only in the foreign terms section of the 11th edition, which can also be found when searched for in the Online edition, where the _h_ is shown as being always pronounced.

The Random House Unabridged, available via www.infoplease.com shows the same thing, with the exception that some words having to do with herbs or plants show the pronunciation with _h_ pronounced being used more often than that with the _h_ silent. _Herbaceous_ and _herbarium_ are examples of this latter group.


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## Daican

Merriam-Webster gives the pronunciation as : \ˈərb, _US also & British usually_ ˈhərb\

The Oxford English Dictionary only gives : /hɜːb/ 		

In Canada (at least my region) I was taught not to pronounce the 'h' for the plants, but to sound it for the person.


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## Wordsmyth

Thanks, Copyright and mplsray, for the info on the other 'herby' words.

Ws


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## Johnny519

<<Moderator note: I have merged Johnny's question with a previous discussion.  The last few posts above this cover some of the issues related to words beyond herb, including herbivorous.  Please read from the top>>

I’m wondering if 'h' in herbivorous is silent? But 'h' in herbivore is not, is this true?


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## london calling

I sound the 'h' in both cases.


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## Rover_KE

So do I, but our North American friends will say the opposite, unless I'm very much mistaken.


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## RM1(SS)

I wouldn't pronounce the 'h' in either word, but I confess that I've never looked either one up in a dictionary - I pronounce them without the '' because I don't pronounce the 'h' in _herb_.


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## Bevj

That's interesting;  so do you say_ 'erb_ in North America?
I would sound the 'h' in all the above words.


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## Johnny519

I looked up words like herb, herbivore, herbivorous again in the dictionnary, it seemed that h was not pronounced in these words in North America. But quite the opposite in the UK.


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## gramman

As an AE speaker, I pronounce the aitch in "herbivore" but not in "herb." I'd say that's common practice. 

There's a lot of discussion/information about this online. It seems to involve a complicated history of Latin, French, and English, both BrE and AE. I'll post links to the page about aitch from the _Online Etymology Dictionary_, and a somewhat rambling thread (What's with the erb word?) found on the _Straight Dope Message Board_. I'm guessing it's come up here at WRF before many times. Well, once anyway: H as in herb [pronunciation].


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## Parla

> As an AE speaker, I pronounce the aitch in "herbivore" but not in "herb." I'd say that's common practice.


I agree.  I realize that it's illogical, but . . .


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## Glenfarclas

For what it's worth, you may want to see the Google Ngram for "a herbivore" versus "an herbivore."

I don't pronounce either aitch, by the way.  (Only in the name Herb[ert].)


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## PaulQ

Glenfarclas said:


> For what it's worth, you may want to see the Google Ngram for "a herbivore" versus "an herbivore."


 It's worth changing the databases to American English and to British English to see what happens.


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## gramman

My favourite thought on this topic was a comment posted at the end of a not-so-sophisticated thread: "Who cares?" Made me laugh. Of course the answer is that language nuts like _us_ care.


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## bicontinental

gramman said:


> As an AE speaker, I pronounce the aitch in "herbivore" but not in "herb." I'd say that's common practice.



Like RM1, I also pronounce the "h"...Maybe it's a regional thing...Merriam Webster seems to accept it both with and without the "h" (although the recorded pronunciation is with*out* the "h" ) 
Just curious..how do you and others pronounce other 'herb-derived' words like herbicide, herbaceous, herbal, herbist, etc.?

Bic.


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## mplsray

Johnny519 said:


> I looked up words like herb, herbivore, herbivorous again in the dictionnary, it seemed that h was not pronounced in these words in North America. But quite the opposite in the UK.



As should be mentioned each time this subject comes up, there are indeed Americans who pronounce the _h_ in _herb._ This is not limited, however, to any particular part of the United States—that is, it does not concern a regional difference within the US. (What the situation is in Canada, I could not say.)

I, for one, pronounce the _h_ in each of the words you give above.


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## Cagey

One of the other times this subject has come up is here: < Threads now joined. Link removed. > 


*Added*: And here is another:  She had an herbal scent to her - [AE pronunciation]


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## RM1(SS)

bicontinental said:


> Like RM1, I also pronounce the "h"...


I repeat: I don't pronounce the "h."


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## mathman

bicontinental said:


> Like RM1, I also pronounce the "h"...Maybe it's a regional thing...Merriam Webster seems to accept it both with and without the "h" (although the recorded pronunciation is with*out* the "h" )
> Just curious..how do you and others pronounce other 'herb-derived' words like herbicide, herbaceous, herbal, herbist, etc.?
> 
> Bic.



I pronounce the H in the first two (and in herbivore/herbivorous), but not in the last two (or in herb). No idea why. Back in the 60's, many people would pronounce the H in herb when it referred to marijuana ("Got any herb?"), but not when applied to, say, oregano. Again, no idea why. I would find it odd if someone pronounced the H in "herb" nowadays.


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## pickup

<This post has been added to an older thread. Moderator>

Hi


The following list of words can be pronounced with *an h* or *without an h *(it probably depends on the country you are in as it happens with the first one on the list):
*
herb, herbaceous, herbal, herbicide, herbalist,herbivore, hervivorous.
*
The word* herb *is pronounced as follows in the US and in the UK. *herb /hɜː(r)b/ (UK) y /ɜː(r)b/ (US)
*
Can the same rule apply to the rest of the words on the list?

Thank you very much for your prompt answers.

pickup
*
*


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## Englishmypassion

Wordsmyth said:


> BE speakers who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do it because they drop *all* their _'h'_s. So in BE you'll hear either _"herbs for Herbert"_ or _" 'erbs for 'erbert ". _Whereas in AE, those who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do so because they consider it the correct pronunciation of that particular word, so they say _" 'erbs for Herbert "._




Do those BE speakers who pronounce the common noun *herb* as _*erb*_ drop their _*h*_s in all English words beginning with _*h*_, including _hard_, _heat, hot, hip, hunter, hiss, heart_ and _hang_? (That sounds  to me.)

Thanks.


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## velisarius

In my experience, yes, they do.


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## Englishmypassion

Wow, I could never imagine that! English is so fond of giving surprises. 

Thanks a lot, Veli.


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## Andygc

Englishmypassion said:


> Do those BE speakers who pronounce the common noun *herb* as _*erb*_ drop their _*h*_s in all English words beginning with _*h*_, including _hard_, _heat, hot, hip, hunter, hiss, heart_ and _hang_? (That sounds  to me.)
> 
> Thanks.


You seem to have missed post 18, which answers your question.


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## Englishmypassion

Andygc said:


> You seem to have missed post 18, which answers your question.



My question was specifically about those BE speakers who drop the "h" in the common noun "herb" (whether they drop "h" in the beginning of each and in every English word). I know most AE speakers drop the _h_ in the common noun _herb _(though some pronounce that)_, _but they do pronounce the _h_ in the words I listed, as well as in most other words except for a few exceptions like_ hour, honest, heir, honor,_ etc.

What am I missing?
Thanks.


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## velisarius

Only those BE speakers who drop all their aitches are likely to drop the aitch in "herb"—unless they've spent too much time watching American cooking/gardening programmes on TV.

Edit: Of course, some speakers who drop their aitches in casual speech take care to sound them when they are with others who speak with a standard accent.


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## Englishmypassion

velisarius said:


> Only those BE speakers who drop all their aitches are likely to drop the aitch in "herb"—unless they've spent too much time watching American cooking/gardening programmes on TV.



Yes, that's what I meant-- their dropping every beginning _h_ being obviously the reason for dropping the _h_ in _herb_. (I don't know what Andy is suggesting then. )
And yes, Americanism is spreading like wildfire. 

Thanks a lot again, Veli.


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## Andygc

Question:


Englishmypassion said:


> Do those BE speakers who pronounce the common noun *herb* as _*erb*_ drop their _*h*_s in all English words beginning with _*h*_, including _hard_, _heat, hot, hip, hunter, hiss, heart_ and _hang_


Answer:


Wordsmyth said:


> BE speakers who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do it *because they drop all their 'h's. *So in BE you'll hear either _"herbs for Herbert"_ or _" 'erbs for 'erbert "._


That seems pretty clear to me. Have I missed something?


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## Englishmypassion

Andygc said:


> That seems pretty clear to me. Have I missed something?



 I asked that question to be 100% sure that I was not interpreting that post wrongly and that "all" didn't mean just all the words being discussed in the thread, e.g. _herbivore/herbaceous,herbal, Herbert_, etc, especially as the discovery was pretty surprising to me. Thanks.


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## Hermione Golightly

BE speakers who drop the _h_ of _herb_ do it because they drop all their _'h'_s. So in BE you'll hear either _"herbs for Herbert"_ or _" 'erbs for 'erbert ". 
_
*Dropping the aitches is a regional, non-standard habit.*


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## sound shift

Hermione Golightly said:


> *Dropping the aitches is a regional, non-standard habit.*


Yes. It appens in eaps of places.


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## Englishmypassion

sound shift said:


> Yes. It appens in eaps of places.





But it only appens with the beginning eitch like the one in _eat, it, air _and _ear,_ and not, say, in _foxhole_ or _boyhood_. Right? Thanks.


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## heypresto

I think you might well hear 'fox'ole' and 'boy'ood' in some places, amongst some speakers. It's not a habit to get into though.


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## ewie

heypresto said:


> I think you might well hear 'fox'ole' and 'boy'ood' in some places, amongst some speakers.


I'd go further than that and say that even some speakers who don't habitually drop any aitches (or imagine they don't) will, in rapid speech, drop it in a word like _foxhole_ (though they won't be aware of it, and would certainly never admit it).  Remember _Vauxhall_?


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## heypresto

Naturally dropping aitches isn't as heinous and offensive to the ear as the addition, by some, of an H to the letter itself - haitch.


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## Loob

heypresto said:


> ... the addition, by some, of an H to the letter itself - haitch...


There's a whole thread on that, heypresto: The Kiwi H - haitch or aitch? [pronunciation]


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## kentix

In AE there's no great h-dropping tradition so I think you'd have to look far and wide to find someone saying fox'ole or boy'ood.


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## Forero

I am American. I and other members of my family have always pronounced the _h_ in _herbal_, etc., but I have heard others pronounce _herb-_ as if the _h_ weren't there and I remember a nationally broadcast commercial for "'erbal essence" shampoo.

I hestitate on the word _herb_ itself. I'm afraid it doesn't sound right with the _h_ or without it.

I think pronouncing, or not pronouncing, the _h_ in these words must be regional or family-specific. The same goes for the _h_ in _humble_, though the _h_ in _humility_ is always pronounced.


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## kentix

Forero said:


> though the _h_ in _humility_ is always pronounced.


I wouldn't be too certain of that.

WordReference Random House Unabridged Dictionary of American English © 2018
hu•mil•i•ty  _(hyo̅o̅ mil*′*i tē or, often, yo̅o̅-),_ n. 

the quality or condition of being humble;
modest opinion or estimate of one's own importance, rank, etc.


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## natkretep

Yes, I think that is true of words beginning with /ˈhju/. I've heard a number of Americans say _huge_ without the /h/ too.


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## kentix

natkretep said:


> I've heard a number of Americans say _huge_ without the /h/ too.


I think it's relatively rare but not unheard of. I've never lived anywhere that the h was commonly silent. I think it's more common in the Northeast (an area I've never lived).


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## JamesM

Our president drops the "h" in "huge".


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## hwit

In the first place, being a loan word from French the h in herb is silent so it’s not so much that Americans drop the h as others insert it because of the spelling. Historically, this has happened with many words of French origin.

As another example, my mother who grew up in Appalachia doesn’t pronounce an h in humble but it seems that the spelling pronunciation with the h is near universal now.


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## london calling

heypresto said:


> I think you might well hear 'fox'ole' and 'boy'ood' in some places, amongst some speakers. It's not a habit to get into though.


In London for a start, where they also add aitches where they aren't needed in an effort to sound posh.


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## london calling

Hi don't know,' ow you don't compre'end, innit. S'normal when you speak like what hi do. What's a haitch between mates?


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## Packard

More fun when a English learner reads the botany description of a sesame plant which is, in part, a "hairy herb".  And now how do we pronounce that phrase?


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## Hermione Golightly

My favourite cab driver is one of the increasingly rare true East London Cockney speakers. Every time he picks me up, we 'ave a warvuh silly standin' joke abou' where I wannuh gow. " 'E arx, where yuz goin', babe ?", 'n' ah tells 'im, "Sign 'Elierz, m' darlin'". Den 'e sez, "Wo', no' de Wofferive?"  'N' ah sez, "Nah, no' todie,  swee' 'are', ta very much all the sime, bab'z, mybe nex' wee'".

My local hospital is called 'Saint Helier's'. There's a notorious tunnel under the river Thames called the 'Rotherhithe Tunnel'.


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## Cagey

Posts discussing pronunciation of the name of the letter 'H' have been moved to the thread linked to in post #62. 
The link is repeated here: The Kiwi H - haitch or aitch? [pronunciation]

Further discussion of this topic should be carried on in that thread. 

The topic of this thread is words beginning with 'h' apart from that letter's name. 

Cagey, 
moderator


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## Andygc

hwit said:


> In the first place, being a loan word from French the h in herb is silent so it’s not so much that Americans drop the h as others insert it because of the spelling.


Rather odd to describe a word that came into English at the same time and from the same parent language as pork, mutton and beef as a "loan word". There's good reason to believe it was pronounced without the initial 'h' because the old spellings include _eerbe _and _earbe_, but the _herb _and _herbe _spellings took over completely from the 1600s. There's also various _yerb_ spellings, giving a reminder of dialect variation.





> 1855  C. Kingsley _Westward Ho!_ iv  Some skill in ‘yarbs’, as she called her simples.
> Source: OED



It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that the early American settlers took _'erb_ with them, but it makes little sense to suggest that the mostly illiterate English of the 17th century onwards pronounced the word _herb _because it was spelt that way by the few who could read and write. It seems to me that the spelling was more likely to follow the spoken word, not the other way round.


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## JamesM

It would be interesting to know when and how it happened.  American English retains a lot of words and pronunciations that British English has moved on from.  I suspect it became "herb" (with a pronounced "h")  in British English after the colonies separated.

Aha!  Here's an article that confirms my bias. 

Wordlady: Herb or Erb?



> Many of you may be thinking that this is another dastardly American plot to corrupt the language (for more of these, click here) but in fact it is the British who are responsible for changing the pronunciation,  In Latin, the word was _herba_, but the "h" disappeared from the pronunciation even before the word migrated into Old French. Being sensible, the French didn't put letters in their words to represent non-existent sounds, so their word was _erbe. _From about 1200, when it was adopted from French, till about 1500, the word was "erb", with no" h" to pronounce.
> 
> The h was added to the spelling in the Renaissance when people felt that English spellings should reflect Latin word origins, *but the British (at least those in whose dialect initial h's are pronounced) did not start pronouncing the "h" till the late 19th century, when compulsory education meant that some pronunciations started to reflect spelling.* But Americans retained the older pronunciation, and, since the roots of Canadian English are in American English, about 50% of us do too.
> For the similar story of the word "history", please click here, and for the story of "heir", click here.


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