# Urdu: ٹھاٹیں مارنا



## Gope

Ibne Safi describes how a man reaches the place of a mishap:

...لیکن وہاں تک پہنچنے کے لیے اسے خاصی جدوجہد کرنی پڑی کیونکہ چاروں طرف آدمیوں کا سمندر ٹھاٹیں مار رہا تھا... 
what is ٹھاٹیں مارنا ? Thanks.


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## Qureshpor

^ As a matter of interest, have you tried searching for this in an Urdu dictionary?


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## Gope

Qureshpor said:


> ^ As a matter of interest, have you tried searching for this in an Urdu dictionary?


Yes, indeed, I did not find it in Platts, and Hindi Sabdasagar directed me to ठाट, but I could not follow the Hindi meaning given therein for ठाट मारना.


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## Chhaatr

Gope jii, I'm sorry can't help you with _ThaaTeN_ as I too haven't come across this word.  I can understand your difficulty.  Explaining _ThaaT maarnaa_ would probably be off topic in this thread.  Perhaps if you could open a new thread on that, others would surely chip in.


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## sapnachaandni

According to “فیروز اللغات”i:
ٹھاٹھیں مارنا۔  پانی کا اونچی اونچی پر شور موجیں مارنا​


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## Chhaatr

sapnachaandni said:


> According to “فیروز اللغات”i:
> ٹھاٹھیں مارنا۔  پانی کا اونچی اونچی پر شور موجیں مارنا​



Could you please transliterate?

What I could understand from this post is:

_ThaaTheN maarnaa - paanii kaa uuNchii uuNchii par (?) shor maujeN maarnaa

_Please do correct my (mis)understanding.


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## Qureshpor

A "sea of people" *surging forward* (like a wave).


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## sapnachaandni

Chhaatr said:


> _ThaaTheN maarnaa - paanii kaa uuNchii uuNchii par (?) shor maujeN maarnaa
> 
> _


ThaaTheN maarnaa - paanii kaa uuNchii uuNchii "*pur*-shor" maujeN maarnaa


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## Gope

sapnachaandni said:


> According to “فیروز اللغات”i:
> ٹھاٹھیں مارنا۔  پانی کا اونچی اونچی پر شور موجیں مارنا​


Shukriya, sapnachaandni saaHibaa, so he is saying picturesquely that there was a sea of humanity making high and noisy waves.


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## Gope

Chhaatr said:


> Could you please transliterate?
> 
> What I could understand from this post is:
> 
> _ThaaTheN maarnaa - paanii kaa uuNchii uuNchii par (?) shor maujeN maarnaa
> 
> _Please do correct my (mis)understanding.


Chhaatr ji, I think it is pur shor, like pur asraar= mysterious, full of mystery. I trust I am not wrong!


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## Gope

Qureshpor said:


> A "sea of people" *surging forward* (like a wave).


Very happy with this idiomatic translation, QP SaaHib.


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## Chhaatr

bahut shukriyah sapnachaandni jii and Gope jii.


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## sapnachaandni

Gope said:


> Chhaatr ji, I think it is pur shor, like pur asraar= mysterious, full of mystery. I trust I am not wrong!



you're right Gope jii. 

"pur" means भरपूर (bharpuur), भरा हुआ (bharaa hu'aa)


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> A "sea of people" *surging forward* (like a wave).


I would like to add that the word is actually "ThaaTh" which in Punjabi, yes Punjabi, is a feminine noun meaning "a wave". So, my guess is that "ThaaTeN maarnaa" is a conjunct verb made on the Punjabi pattern. I too could not find "ThaaT", as a feminine noun, in any of the older Urdu dictionaries.


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## Qureshpor

sapnachaandni said:


> According to “فیروز اللغات”i:
> ٹھاٹھیں مارنا۔  پانی کا اونچی اونچی پر شور موجیں مارنا​


پانی کا اونچا اونچا پُر شور موجیں مارنا؟


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## Gope

Qureshpor said:


> پانی کا اونچا اونچا پُر شور موجیں مارنا؟


But it is kii in that famous song: tuu gangaa kii mauj...तू गंगा की मौज...


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## Qureshpor

uuNchaa uuNchaa goes with paanii.


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## Gope

Qureshpor said:


> uuNchaa uuNchaa goes with paanii.


If that is what grammar says I should accept it. The way I reasoned was the action of water is being described by thaath maarnaa. So paanii kaa is OK. Paanii kaa maujeN maarnaa is therefore OK. Since maujeN are being described here I would think it should be uunchii uunchii.  Sapnaachaandnii's original quote : paanii ka uunchii uunchii pur shor maujeN maarnaa sounded right to me. How would you analyse otherwise, QP SaaHib?


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## Qureshpor

^ I have taken another look at this and I offer my apologies to sapnachaandii SaaHibah and you (and the dictionary compilers). I would just like to add that the definition provided is somewhat clumsy.


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## Gope

But, QP SaaHib, it was your question that made me look at Sapnaachaandni SaaHiba's quote closely, and I am relieved my analysis was not illogical, after all!


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## sapnachaandni

^ Gope jii, your analysis is correst. “kaa” can’t be “kii” because of “maarnaa” and “uuNchii uuNchii” can’t be “uuNchaa uuNchaa” because it’s the adjective of “maujeN”.


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## Gope

sapnachaandni said:


> ^ Gope jii, your analysis is correst. “kaa” can’t be “kii” because of “maarnaa” and “uuNchii uuNchii” can’t be “uuNchaa uuNaa” because it’s the adjective of “maujeN”.


Very clear now, Sapnachaandni SaaHibaa, shukriyah.


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## Faylasoof

As would be clear now, the expresson *ٹھاٹھیں مارتا سمندر  ThaaTheN maartaa samandar *can be used for both the splashing, roaring waters of the sea and a throng of excited / agitated people, as *here*:

برطانوی اور آسٹریلوی محققین کا کہنا ہے کہ انہیں جنوبی آسٹریلیا میں فلنڈر رینج کے دوردراز علاقوں میں اس برف کے زمانے کے ایسے ثبوت ملے ہیں جن کے مطابق وہاں* ٹھاٹھیں مارتا سمندر* موجود تھا۔


... and *here*:

جب وہ کراچی میں اترے تو لاکھوں انٹرنیٹیوں میں سے تقریباً ایک سو کے* ٹھاٹھیں مارتے سمندر* نے والہانہ استقبال کیا۔


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## Gope

Faylasoof said:


> As would be clear now, the expresson *ٹھاٹھیں مارتا سمندر  ThaaTheN maartaa samandar *can be used for both the splashing, roaring waters of the sea and a throng of excited / agitated people, as *here*:
> 
> برطانوی اور آسٹریلوی محققین کا کہنا ہے کہ انہیں جنوبی آسٹریلیا میں فلنڈر رینج کے دوردراز علاقوں میں اس برف کے زمانے کے ایسے ثبوت ملے ہیں جن کے مطابق وہاں* ٹھاٹھیں مارتا سمندر* موجود تھا۔
> 
> 
> ... and *here*:
> 
> جب وہ کراچی میں اترے تو لاکھوں انٹرنیٹیوں میں سے تقریباً ایک سو کے* ٹھاٹھیں مارتے سمندر* نے والہانہ استقبال کیا۔


picturesque and metaphorical at the same time. 
Thank you, Faylasoof saaHib, for these contemporary examples, which show that this muhaavarah is very much in vogue in both forms, ThaaThen maarnaa and ThaaTheN maartaa samandar


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## Qureshpor

^ Faylasoof SaaHib, just to be clear in my mind, is "ThaaT" or "ThaaTh" as a feminine noun with its plural "ThaaTeN/ThaaTheN" known in Urdu to mean wave/waves? The reason why I thought it was Punjabi was because I have not found this word in the Farhang-i-Asifyyah, Nur-ul-Lughaat or Platts. In addition Chhaatr SaaHib has suggested that he is unaware of "ThaaTeN maarnaa" in the sense it is being used in this thread.


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## Chhaatr

QP SaaHib I was too lazy to check the web the other day but I've found many instances of ThaaTheN in Hindi today.

However I must admit that in 12 years of Hindi in school from classes 1 to 12 I don't recall having made acquaintance with this word.


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## Faylasoof

Qureshpor said:


> ^ Faylasoof SaaHib, just to be clear in my mind, is "ThaaT" or "ThaaTh" as a feminine noun with its plural "ThaaTeN/ThaaTheN" known in Urdu to mean wave/waves? The reason why I thought it was Punjabi was because I have not found this word in the Farhang-i-Asifyyah, Nur-ul-Lughaat or Platts. In addition Chhaatr SaaHib has suggested that he is unaware of "ThaaTeN maarnaa" in the sense it is being used in this thread.


 The meaning as _waves_ is indeed _not_ known in _older_ Urdu usage but since Urdu keeps borrowing it now seems to be using *ٹھاٹھ* _*ThaaTh*_ in this sense quite a lot. We have a huge Urduphonic Diaspora! So, yes I've heard it as I move around quite a lot, but it isn't found in our original speech with this usage!

More explanation:

Our original usage of *ٹھاٹھ* _*ThaaTh*_/ *ٹھاٹ* _*ThaaT*_ :
1.Bamboo frame for thatching 
2. Trick  in fencing =  _shamshiir zanii kaa paitraa_
3. Splendour, pomp
4. Comfort, ease

تھپیڑا *thapeRaa */تھپیڑ *thapeR *could instead be used for waves in more or less the same sense as *ٹھاٹھ* _ThaaTh_ used in the above examples.

تھپیڑا *thapeRaa * (s.) تھپیڑے *thapeRe *(pl),  and تھپیڑ  *thapeR *(s.)*,* تھپیڑیں  *thapeReN *(pl.)

So the earlier expression would become:

*ٹھاٹھیں مارتا سمندر ** ThaaTheN maartaa samandar*= *تھپیڑے مارتا سمندر  thapeRe maartaa samandar


*


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## Faylasoof

Chhaatr said:


> QP SaaHib I was too lazy to check the web the other day but I've found many instances of ThaaTheN in Hindi today.
> 
> However I must admit that in 12 years of Hindi in school from classes 1 to 12 I don't recall having made acquaintance with this word.


 Interesting to know this Chhaatr SaaHib!


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## Chhaatr

Faylasoof SaaHib, thapeReN (is so Hindi and of course so Urdu) and so commonly used and I think would get precedence over ThaaTheN in day to day conversations.


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## Faylasoof

Chhaatr said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib, thapeReN (is so Hindi and of course so Urdu) and so commonly used and I think would get precedence over ThaaTheN in day to day conversations.


 Given that we have the same background, I'd say yes to this! 
But as I explain above, we need to contend with the Urdu (and Hindi) Diaspora, so for Urdu in some places at least and esp. Pakistan, I guess, the Punjabi *ThaaTh **/ **ThaaTheN* seems quite common. Needless to say, *thapeRaa / **thapeReN* is also used there and by Urdu speakers elsewhere. By instinct I'd go for the latter, of course.


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## Gope

Faylasoof said:


> Given that we have the same background, I'd say yes to this!
> But as I explain above, we need to contend with the Urdu (and Hindi) Diaspora, so for Urdu in some places at least and esp. Pakistan, I guess, the Punjabi *ThaaTh **/ **ThaaTheN* seems quite common. Needless to say, *thapeRaa / **thapeReN* is also used there and by Urdu speakers elsewhere. By instinct I'd go for the latter, of course.



The original sentence was in Ibne Safi's 1957 jasoosi novel, which was greatly popular at that time by all accounts, and Ibne Safi completed his education in Allahabad by 1948.And feroze ul lughat (cited by Sapnaachaandni SaaHiba) must certainly have been in vogue by then, so I wonder if it is all that modern to be attributed to the urdu-speaking diaspora alone. Native speakers of Urdu please forgive me!


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## Faylasoof

Gope said:


> The original sentence was in Ibne Safi's 1957 jasoosi novel, which was greatly popular at that time by all accounts, and Ibne Safi completed his education in Allahabad by 1948.And feroze ul lughat (cited by Sapnaachaandni SaaHiba) must certainly have been in vogue by then, so I wonder if it is all that modern to be attributed to the urdu-speaking diaspora alone. Native speakers of Urdu please forgive me!


 Please forgive me for saying this, but Ibne Safi "completing" his education in Allahabad (1948) doesn't mean he could not have continued his "education" elsewhere - _perhaps_ more western regions of the Urdu speaking region. After all we keep "educating" ourselves all our lives, i.e. we keep learning from others even after formally completing a degree. 

We have a few threads where _differences_ existing  between Western (Delhi-based / influenced) Urdu versus Eastern (Lucknow-based / influenced) Urdu have been discussed! Our, traditional / standard eastern usage of *ٹھاٹھ ThaaTh/ ٹھاٹ ThaaT* is as I mention above and not as this author has used. Apparently The question remains as to the exact origin of this usage. This usage is certainly found more widely in current Urdu diaspora and seemingly more towards the western side, esp. Pakistan now. It is not in Farhang-i-Asifyyah, Nur-ul-Lughaat or Platts, as QP SaaHib mentions.


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## Gope

Faylasoof said:


> Please forgive me for saying this, but Ibne Safi "completing" his education in Allahabad (1948) doesn't mean he could not have continued his "education" elsewhere - _perhaps_ more western regions of the Urdu speaking region. After all we keep "educating" ourselves all our lives, i.e. we keep learning from others even after formally completing a degree.
> 
> We have a few threads where _differences_ existing  between Western (Delhi-based / influenced) Urdu versus Eastern (Lucknow-based / influenced) Urdu have been discussed! Our, traditional / standard eastern usage of *ٹھاٹھ ThaaTh/ ٹھاٹ ThaaT* is as I mention above and not as this author has used. Apparently The question remains as to the exact origin of this usage. This usage is certainly found more widely in current Urdu diaspora and seemingly more towards the western side, esp. Pakistan now. It is not in Farhang-i-Asifyyah, Nur-ul-Lughaat or Platts, as QP SaaHib mentions.



Thank you very much, Faylasoof SaaHib, I am much obliged for putting matters in perspective for me. And my apologies to Qureshpor SaaHib, too. May I wish you and all other dear members of this forum a very happy New Year.


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## Gope

Faylasoof said:


> The meaning as _waves_ is indeed _not_ known in _older_ Urdu usage but since Urdu keeps borrowing it now seems to be using *ٹھاٹھ* _*ThaaTh*_ in this sense quite a lot. We have a huge Urduphonic Diaspora! So, yes I've heard it as I move around quite a lot, but it isn't found in our original speech with this usage!
> 
> More explanation:
> 
> Our original usage of *ٹھاٹھ* _*ThaaTh*_/ *ٹھاٹ* _*ThaaT*_ :
> 1.Bamboo frame for thatching
> 2. Trick  in fencing =  _shamshiir zanii kaa paitraa_
> 3. Splendour, pomp
> 4. Comfort, ease
> 
> تھپیڑا *thapeRaa */تھپیڑ *thapeR *could instead be used for waves in more or less the same sense as *ٹھاٹھ* _ThaaTh_ used in the above examples.
> 
> تھپیڑا *thapeRaa * (s.) تھپیڑے *thapeRe *(pl),  and تھپیڑ  *thapeR *(s.)*,* تھپیڑیں  *thapeReN *(pl.)
> 
> So the earlier expression would become:
> 
> *ٹھاٹھیں مارتا سمندر ** ThaaTheN maartaa samandar*= *تھپیڑے مارتا سمندر  thapeRe maartaa samandar
> 
> 
> *



As a matter of interest, I have an urdu dictionary (downloaded from Allma Iqbal Urdu Cyber Library) which gives some more (nuances, perhaps?), here is the full entry for ThaaT:








اسم مذكر( ۔ بانس کا چوکھٹا ۔ پنجر ۔ ڈھانچا ۔ فيشن ۔ طرز ۔ ڈھنگ ۔ سجاوٹ ۔ آرائش)


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## Faylasoof

Gope said:


> As a matter of interest, I have an urdu dictionary (downloaded from Allma Iqbal Urdu Cyber Library) which gives some more (nuances, perhaps?), here is the full entry for ThaaT:
> 
> اسم مذكر( ۔ بانس کا چوکھٹا ۔ پنجر ۔ ڈھانچا ۔ فيشن ۔ طرز ۔ ڈھنگ ۔ سجاوٹ ۔ آرائش)


 Thank you Gope SaaHib for this! Actually, I didn't bother giving above every meaning I found for this word - merely enough to give an idea of the range of usage. BTW, many of the ones you present can seen to be present in what I said. All the same, thanks once again for your troubles. 

The most common usages in our daily speech for ThaaT / ThaaTh are nos. 3 and 4 in my list:

_us ke to Thaat haiN_ = _He / She is comfortable / living in ease / living in splendour etc. _and in this context_, Thaat i_s always treated as a plural and we never say_ ThaateN _here!


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