# goodbye, farewell, so long



## kwyjibo

i've always wondered if there was a very fine semantic (or etymological) difference between the various ways of saying goodbye to somebody. 

specifically "farewell" and "goodbye"

And how are they considered in terms of finality? Obviously "see you later" implies you'll be seeing them sometime soon, so it's not very final. But I'm looking for the word which has "forever" attached to it


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## nichec

kwyjibo said:


> i've always wondered if there was a very fine semantic (or etymological) difference between the various ways of saying goodbye to somebody.
> 
> specifically "farewell" and "goodbye"
> 
> And how are they considered in terms of finality? Obviously "see you later" implies you'll be seeing them sometime soon, so it's not very final. But I'm looking for the word which has "forever" attached to it


 
If I feel that I won't see the person for the rest of my life, "farewell" would be my choice, but that's just me.

Oh, do excuse my manners, welcome to the forum!


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## Thomas Tompion

kwyjibo said:


> i've always wondered if there was a very fine semantic (or etymological) difference between the various ways of saying goodbye to somebody.
> 
> specifically "farewell" and "goodbye"
> 
> And how are they considered in terms of finality? Obviously "see you later" implies you'll be seeing them sometime soon, so it's not very final. But I'm looking for the word which has "forever" attached to it


 
Hi Kwyjibo, and welcome to the forum.

Farewell is what you say to someone who you don't expect to see again. It means may you fare well - may you be happy and successful. It's quite a dramatic thing to say to someone, even on your deathbed, but friends who were parting for what they knew to be at least a very long time would say it. It has the air of finality you say you are looking for.

Good-bye, which is derived, I think, from God by ye - God be with you (to protect you and bring you good fortune, implied), is said much more often in BE, when you leave someone, even someone you know you may see again very soon.


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## panjandrum

ThomasT - would you say farewell, personally?
It's a word I might use in a farewell speech, but not person-to-person.


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## Thomas Tompion

panjandrum said:


> ThomasT - would you say farewell, personally?
> It's a word I might use in a farewell speech, but not person-to-person.


I live in the south west of France. I go to England, where I have many old (in both senses of the word) friends, rarely. When I'm in England I visit people who I know I'm unlikely to see again for ages, if ever. I find we do in these circumstances find ourselves saying 'farewell' to each other, and not just as a mock emotional manner of taking leave, to cover our affection for each other - this is beginning to sound very British - but because it's the word best suited to our circumstances. To my ear, it's less dramatic than the French equivalent 'adieu', whose etymology unambiguously implies that you won't be seeing each other again in this life. The English version, Adieu - pronounced A-dew (accent on the second syllable) I haven't heard used in conversation, though it crops up in old songs (There is a tavern in the town).


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## nichec

Thomas Tompion said:


> I live in the south west of France. I go to England, where I have many old (in both senses of the word) friends, rarely. When I'm in England I visit people who I know I'm unlikely to see again for ages, if ever. I find we do in these circumstances find ourselves saying 'farewell' to each other, and not just as a mock emotional manner of taking leave, to cover our affection for each other - this is beginning to sound very British - but because it's the word best suited to our circumstances. To my ear, it's less dramatic than the French equivalent 'adieu', whose etymology unambiguously implies that you won't be seeing each other again in this life. The English version, Adieu - pronounced A-dew (accent on the second syllable) I haven't heard used in conversation, though it crops up in old songs (The Camptown Races ?).


 
Well, in Spanish "adios" is used in everyday language, but not in French or English, as *TT* stated.

I have never said "farewell" to anyone before, and I only expect to see it in books and plays.


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## TheAmzngTwinWndr

I say "bye", "good-bye", "see you later" (actually, I say "see ya later", but that's slang).  I guess "farewell" does have a sense of finality, but it seems way too formal to me (no offense to any Brits, but to me it seems like something someone would say when speaking in a British accent and impersonating an old British gentleman).  "Good-bye forever" has a definite sense of finality, but that seems very rude to me, like something you would say to your ex-boyfriend/girlfriend after you just broke up.


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## Krispina

Hello guys.
I was looking for information about the way "so long" of saying goodbye to someone and I found this thread.
I didn't see any comments on "so long".
Thank you.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

While I find nothing odd about saying "she made a farewell performance at the opera", or "he said farewell to his old job", I have never in my life at a time of departure directly said the word "Farewell!" to anyone, nor has anyone ever said it to me. If anyone did, I would find it odd and archaic. I might say "Good bye", or just "Bye", or "So long", or "See you later", but "Farewell"? No, never.


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## Packard

kwyjibo said:


> ... Obviously "see you later" implies you'll be seeing them sometime soon,...


 
I end almost every personal phone call with, "I'll speak to you soon", regardless of when I intend to speak to that person again.  I don't think you can read too much into, what for many, is a reflexive response.


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## Dimcl

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> While I find nothing odd about saying "she made a farewell performance at the opera", or "he said farewell to his old job", I have never in my life at a time of departure directly said the word "Farewell!" to anyone, nor has anyone ever said it to me. If anyone did, I would find it odd and archaic. I might say "Good bye", or just "Bye", or "So long", or "See you later", but "Farewell"? No, never.


 
I couldn't agree more.  It reminds me of a pale, lovely lady swooning on her deathbed and being very dramatic (think Garbo as Camille).

When I say goodbye to someone, I don't think I actually contemplate never seeing them again but if I did, I think I'd just say "Bye".


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## panjandrum

Well, there we go.
Krispina very carefully looks for a thread about "so long", finds this one, sees there is nothing about "so long", and asks for help.
What do we do?
Ignore the new request and pick up points from the old posts 

I don't think "so long" is used a great deal, if at all, in my part of the world.
It brings to mind either the Sound of Music or "So long, it's been good to know you."


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## Nunty

In my American English, "so long" is easily understood, at least by my generation, but is somewhat dated. I remember reading an English novel (_In This House of Brede_ by Rumer Godden). In the part of the story that took place in the 1950s, a young man says "so long" to a young girl, and the phrase is noted as old-fashioned. Half a century ago!

I don't think I ever say "so long", but I think my American mother used to say it sometimes.


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## Cagey

People did say "so long" in the rural area of California where I grew up.  It may have become dated since, but it definitely was current there in the fifties and the sixties.  

I believe I still hear it from time to time, and not only in the country.  Generally, it isn't used by itself.  People say "So long, see you / be seeing you/ etc."  Unless it finishes off an interchange of good-byes, "so long" by itself seems a bit abrupt.

Edit: I should have said that "so long" is casual, and used between friends or in informal situations. You would not say it at the close of a job interview, for instance.


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## lrosa

To me, like almost everyone else, "Farewell!", as an exclamation, would sound completely absurd if it was used in real life. "So long" sounds a lot less dated, and conveys equally well the sense of finality that you were looking for, kwyjibo. I'd say "So long" is the better option.

However, it would almost always be rude to say either of these to anyone. The only situation where I can imagine "So long" being said is... where there's two close friends/lovers who are hugging and saying goodbye at the airport, knowing that they'll be apart indefinitely, and through their heartfelt tears they smile and say "Well, so long!", hold hands one final time until the one who's leaving goes through airport security, waving all the way.

It depends how sentimental a person you are, I guess, but I would never use an expression for "goodbye" that implies finality.


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## Thomas Tompion

lrosa said:


> To me, like almost everyone else, "Farewell!", as an exclamation, would sound completely absurd if it was used in real life. "So long" sounds a lot less dated, and conveys equally well the sense of finality that you were looking for, kwyjibo. I'd say "So long" is the better option.
> 
> However, it would almost always be rude to say either of these to anyone. The only situation where I can imagine "So long" being said is... where there's two close friends/lovers who are hugging and saying goodbye at the airport, knowing that they'll be apart indefinitely, and through their heartfelt tears they smile and say "Well, so long!", hold hands one final time until the one who's leaving goes through airport security, waving all the way.
> 
> It depends how sentimental a person you are, I guess, but I would never use an expression for "goodbye" that implies finality.


What would you say to a grandparent who was dying, Irosa, and you both knew it and had talked about it, and you had to leave him or her?  Don't you think _good-bye_ or _so long_ might sound a little insufficient?


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## Loob

panjandrum said:


> Well, there we go.
> Krispina very carefully looks for a thread about "so long", finds this one, sees there is nothing about "so long", and asks for help.
> What do we do?
> Ignore the new request and pick up points from the old posts
> 
> I don't think "so long" is used a great deal, if at all, in my part of the world.
> It brings to mind either the Sound of Music or "So long, it's been good to know you."


I'm with you, panj.
(1) I don't think I've ever said "so long"
(2) I can't imagine ever saying it...


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## lrosa

Thomas Tompion said:


> What would you say to a grandparent who was dying, Irosa, and you both knew it and had talked about it, and you had to leave him or her?  Don't you think _good-bye_ or _so long_ might sound a little insufficient?



Hi Thomas. I wonder are you suggesting _farewell_? I mean, you've put me on the spot here, I admit I can't think of anything "sufficient" to say when leaving someone who's dying, knowing I'll never see them again!! That's too difficult a linguistic problem for these forums, I believe. I've not had much life experience of this, in any case...


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## Thomas Tompion

But don't you think this thread has suggested 1. that it's mainly an AE idiom and 2. that it's rather out of date even in AE?


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## lrosa

Thomas Tompion said:


> But don't you think this thread has suggested 1. that it's mainly an AE idiom and 2. that it's rather out of date even in AE?



Do you mean _So long_? I wouldn't recognise it as being particularly American, but that's just me. I don't know about it being out of date, but I would just say that, in English at least, people hardly ever say goodbye in a way that implies finality. "(Good)bye" can certainly be final in some cases, but it's not clearly so.


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## Thomas Tompion

lrosa said:


> Hi Thomas. I wonder are you suggesting _farewell_? I mean, you've put me on the spot here, I admit I can't think of anything "sufficient" to say when leaving someone who's dying, knowing I'll never see them again!! That's too difficult a linguistic problem for these forums, I believe. I've not had much life experience of this, in any case...


Well, I said earlier in the thread that in some almost parallel situations I do actually say "farewell" and "dear friend" and things which one wouldn't say perhaps in the ordinary currency of life. But we do need language to deal with such situations and I don't feel that should be too difficult a matter for the forum.

In my experience often you say things in extreme circumstances which might make some English people blush afterwards in the cold light of day, but when someone you love is dying, you need language appropriate to the situation, and can't get by with the casual, cheerful, perfuntory formulae of politeness which see you through ordinary times.

I'm not saying more than that, and I'm not trying to put you or anyone else on the spot, but just asking you to look into yourself and imagine what you might say. A lot depends on the other person, of course, their attitude to the situation, their sensitivity to words, what they feel about you, how close you have been. I'm just saying that in some circumstances I have said and do say 'farewell' to people, and it doesn't sound all that strange to me, nor, in view of their reactions, to them. That's all.


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## lrosa

Thomas Tompion said:


> Well, I said earlier in the thread that in some almost parallel situations I do actually say "farewell" and "dear friend" and things which one wouldn't say perhaps in the ordinary currency of life. But we do need language to deal with such situations and I don't feel that should be too difficult a matter for the forum.
> 
> In my experience often you say things in extreme circumstances which might make some English people blush afterwards in the cold light of day, but when someone you love is dying, you need language appropriate to the situation, and can't get by with the casual, cheerful, perfuntory formulae of politeness which see you through ordinary times.
> 
> I'm not saying more than that, and I'm not trying to put you or anyone else on the spot, but just asking you to look into yourself and imagine what you might say. A lot depends on the other person, of course, their attitude to the situation, their sensitivity to words, what they feel about you, how close you have been. I'm just saying that in some circumstances I have said and do say 'farewell' to people, and it doesn't sound all that strange to me, nor, in view of their reactions, to them. That's all.



Funnily enough, I wouldn't have thought of language as being important in such situations. But again, I can't speak from experience. I suppose what you say would also depend on what you feel about death - I mean, if you believe in an afterlife, in a way there's no situation where you'd ever want to say goodbye with finality... So I can imagine such people saying "See you soon."  But I suppose there _is _no one thing to say - it's not like you can take out a phrase book and pick out a standard phrase. As it's so individual, I'm not suggesting that anything would be wrong to say.


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## Thomas Tompion

lrosa said:


> Funnily enough, I wouldn't have thought of language as being important in such situations. But again, I can't speak from experience. I suppose what you say would also depend on what you feel about death - I mean, if you believe in an afterlife, in a way there's no situation where you'd ever want to say goodbye with finality... So I can imagine such people saying "See you soon." But I suppose there _is _no one thing to say - it's not like you can take out a phrase book and pick out a standard phrase. As it's so individual, I'm not suggesting that anything would be wrong to say.


I think that's what I'm saying too, Irosa.


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## Eigenfunction

I would like to note:
I say _farewell_ sometimes in real life.
I can't imagine anyone saying _so long_ without an American accent.
If you want to be final, you could say something like, "Have a good life" in some circumstances.

And as far as I'm concerned, either of the original expressions could be final or not.
Farewell could mean "Fare well until I see you again" or "Fare well for eternity"
Goodbye could mean "God be with you until next we meet" or "God be with you for eternity"


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## Packard

Loob said:


> I'm with you, panj.
> (1) I don't think I've ever said "so long"
> (2) I can't imagine ever saying it...


 
I've said "so long" but always co-joined with another phrase.

*So long; I'll see you later.*

*So long; I'll see you at the next league game.*

etc.

I don't think is sounds out of place when used that way.

(I do have a feeling that _"God-speed-and-fare-thee-well"_ would sound a bit odd coming from my mouth, but _"so long"_ works for me paired with another phrase.)


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## Disneyesque

I dare to think that the words* 'so long'* and *'farewell'* are common between foreigners mainly because of _the Sound of Music_.
For I was raised singing 'So long, farewell ... Adieu, adieu, to you (actually yieu) and you and you ...', So long/farewell/adieu are too familiar to me.
Until today have I even thought the words are common, and always been ready to use them person-to-person. I won't, though. Don't wanna be stagey!


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## MirandaEscobedo

I'm with Thomas Tompion in the sense that I actually do say "farewell" to people and they to me. In my case, the context is teacher-student, where it is usually quite unlikely that our paths will cross again. Thinking about it, I would probably only say this to students I feel close to in some way, for example where we have had a lot of debates in class or if it is a PhD student and we have had many intense discussions about his/her dissertation.


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## Loob

Hi again princess

I can't imagine saying "So long" or "Farewell" or "Adieu" to anyone....


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## Disneyesque

I understand what you mean, Miranda. Maybe it can deepen the feeling. The word is just rarely used, not perished.

Loob, I think it may send you and the listener onto a theatre stage. 
Or perhaps the listener would start singing 'So long, farewell, Auf wiedersehen...'


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## Packard

Loob said:


> Hi again princess
> 
> I can't imagine saying "So long" or "Farewell" or "Adieu" to anyone....


Well I use "so long" and I don't think I am alone on that (in the USA).


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## Disneyesque

Dear Packard, Hello. 
Yes, above, you said that you would use the word with another phrase following at the end- You don't say just 'so long!' to your friend.
I appreciate it in that case, and will try to use it someday


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## Packard

princess_cm said:


> Dear Packard, Hello.
> Yes, above, you said that you would use the word with another phrase following at the end- You don't say just 'so long!' to your friend.
> I appreciate it in that case, and will try to use it someday


I might say something like, "So long. I'll see you next week."


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## merryman

Hi everybody, it's my first time in the forum. I know it's late on this thread, but that's my question: maybe farewell is actually the best option if I want to express, as first and strongest connotation, a sense of irreversibility? For example, in a not casually chosen book title (as in "A Farewell to Arms"? I also ask if "The Long Goodbye" coul be "better" expressed using farewell). Thanks!


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## velisarius

Welcome to the forum, merryman!

You say you want to express a sense of "irreversibility", but can you tell us where you want to use the word? Is this another title, or do you have a sentence? The context is very important because "farewell" is not a word we use every day. Who would be saying farewell to whom, and under what circumstances?


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## Packard

"A final farewell" suggests irreversibility.  For me a simple farewell suggests something short of that.

I think "farewell" is the shortened form for "fare thee well" and should be used where you would use the longer phrase.

But as Vel noted we can not comment specifically until we see the context in which the word is to be used.


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## merryman

Actually I have in mind a title or something similar, not a sentence. I sense that if I use farewell is stronger than goodbye. For a current example, if a newspaper writes today "farewell to euro" it expresses a sort of quasi irreversibility, right? Much more than writing "goodbye to euro", if I get it right.
Thanks!


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## Packard

I believe that "goodbye" is used far more often than "farewell" which sounds to my ears much more formal.  (I used to quote Google hits to determine if a word was used more often but I have come to believe that those numbers are not reliable indicators of usage.)

From informal to more formal:  _bye-bye, goodbye, farewell _(to my ears at any rate).


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## sdgraham

Packard said:


> I believe that "goodbye" is used far more often than "farewell" which sounds to my ears much more formal.  (I used to quote Google hits to determine if a word was used more often but I have come to believe that those numbers are not reliable indicators of usage.)
> 
> From informal to more formal:  _bye-bye, goodbye, farewell _(to my ears at any rate).





indeed and I would go so far as to call "farewell" archaic in normal AE usage and the only time I hear it nowadays is in the annual broadcast of Rogers and Hammerstein's classic film/play _The Sound of Music _in which the children sing:

[Children:]
So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, goodbye
[Kurt:]
I leave and heave a sigh and say goodbye -- Goodbye!


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## DonnyB

merryman said:


> For a current example, if a newspaper writes today "farewell to euro" it expresses a sort of quasi irreversibility, right? Much more than writing "goodbye to euro", if I get it right.


Yes, I would go along with that.  I'd see "Greece bids farewell to the euro" as having a degree of final irrevocability, more so than just "Greece says goodbye..."


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## ewie

I'm surprised at how many of you appear happy to say _goodbye_.  I'd only say that (I _think_) in deathbed circumstances ~ _goodbye_ /gʊdbaɪ/.
For me the go-to formal word is _bye._ _Goodbye_ is very formal ... and very final
_Farewell_ is kind of off-the-scale of archaic ceremoniality*
I wouldn't dream of saying _so long_.

*All this is taking the terms as stand-alone words, not as in fixed phrases like _farewell performance, bid farewell to_ etc.


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## Packard

ewie said:


> I'm surprised at how many of you appear happy to say _goodbye_.  I'd only say that (I _think_) in deathbed circumstances ~ _goodbye_ /gʊdbaɪ/.
> For me the go-to formal word is _bye._ _Goodbye_ is very formal ... and very final
> _Farewell_ is kind of off-the-scale of archaic ceremoniality*
> I wouldn't dream of saying _so long_.
> 
> *All this is taking the terms as stand-alone words, not as in fixed phrases like _farewell performance, bid farewell to_ etc.



That interpretation has to be something local to Britain.  Certainly it is not the case in the USA.

In the USA "bye" is the shortened form of "goodbye" in my opinion.  And I would not be surprised to see it written as_ 'bye._


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## Mahantongo

ewie said:


> I'm surprised at how many of you appear happy to say _goodbye_.


I am even more suprised by the suggestion that it isn't in common use everywhere.  I hear it (and use it) every day; like Packard, I can only assume this is something that has happened to British English.



> For me the go-to formal word is _bye._


I wouldn't consider_ 'bye_ to be formal at all; I would consider it definitely informal, and on the level of the "buh-bye!" chirped at you by the flight attendants as you leave the plane.



> I wouldn't dream of saying _so long_.


 Well, I wouldn't dream of saying I _fancy_ something, or referring to a friend as a _mate_.  This seems to be another one of those differences between AE and BE.  Around here, though, on the western shore of the Pond, it is still common to hear (or say) "so long" as an informal way of sayng good-bye.


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