# Мне отпустить ее кажется, что было бы безумием



## 123xyz

Hello everybody,

A textbook about LFG syntax that I'm currently working my way through claims that in Russian, the I position in c-structures is filled by finite verbs, whereas the VP position is filled by non-finite verbs (and their various complements, if existent). It then presents the following sentence as a supporting argument:

Мне отпустить Катю одну кажется, что было бы безумием.

This sentence is supposedly a colloquial alternative of "мне кажется, что отпустить Катю одну было бы безумием". The point is that in Russian, VP's can allegedly undergo fronting whereas I's allegedly can't, and the fact that "отпустить Катю одну" (non-finite) can be fronted whereas "было бы безумием" (finite) cannot confirms that I's have finite verbs whereas VP's have non-finite ones. 

I want to propose an alternative analysis of this phenomenon, but before I do, I would like to ask you whether "мне отпустить Катю одну кажется, что было бы безумием" is _really_ correct (not in the standard language, but colloquially). I would like the confirmation of native speakers, because I've never heard this construction, whereas the people who wrote the textbook don't actually speak Russian, so they might have included something incorrect without realising it.  

Thank you in advance


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## rusita preciosa

I can't comment on the "I-positions in c-structures", but the sentence itself sounds like something Yoda would say


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## 123xyz

I thought so myself. So, can we conclude that the sentence is incorrect (the sentences that Yoda says in English are incorrect, according to my criteria, for example)?


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## rusita preciosa

Not that it is incorrect, but it has a very strange word order. As you know, in Russian word order is relatively free, so the sentence is comprehensible, people just don't speak/write that way.

I can see how someone could say that when they think how to put in in words as they are saying it:
Мне отпустить Катю одну.... кажется... что было бы безумием.

If you remove some words the sentence would work:
Oтпустить Катю одну было бы безумием.


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## Awwal12

I'd still call it incorrect. We have two clauses here, but for some reason parts of the subordinate clause are invading the main one, and that is not allowed by the normal Russian syntax.

P.S.: And if "мне" refers not to "кажется" but to "отпустить", as *rusita preciosa* has seemingly supposed, it's even more incorrect, because the dative construction shouldn't be possible here (compare, though, interrogative "мне отпустить её?" - which is apparently elliptical, from "мне можно/нужно/стоит/... отпустить её?"). Plus the main cause (the word "кажется", in that case; and it cannot be a plain introductory phrase, since it's followed by the conjunction "что") appears surrounded by the subordinate clause anyway.


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## Sobakus

I can easily see this used in a poem, which is good enough for me to call it grammatical. The finite clause indeed cannot be fronted because that would change the sentence structure and make it a more awkward way to say «для меня было бы безумием...», turning it into a non-compound sentence.


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## Rosett

I would say it this way: "Мне отпустить Катю одну кажется было бы безумием", with a clear stress on "мне".


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## Awwal12

Rosett said:


> I would say it this way: "Мне отпустить Катю одну кажется было бы безумием", with a clear stress on "мне".


And what does exactly mean "мне отпустить"?
The infinitive allows direct connection with the agents standing in the dative case only in some elliptical constructions mentioned above: мне (следует) ее отпустить?, как мне (можно) правильно сделать закваску, etc.; but here we don't have any possible modal predicative to insert. Hopefully you don't speak in phrases like "это желание мне выпить водки" - it's just... not Russian (note that you may encounter phrases like "возможность мне туда пойти" and similar ones due to the interference with the predicative "можно", but strictly speaking they are still agrammatical).
If you meant something else, please, draw the connection between the words in the sentence as you imagine it. To me none possible variant looks grammatical enough.


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## Sobakus

Awwal12 said:


> And what does exactly mean "мне отпустить"?
> The infinitive allows direct connection with the agents standing in the dative case only in some elliptical constructions mentioned above: мне (следует) ее отпустить?, как мне (можно) правильно сделать закваску, etc.;


The Dative of benefit doesn't require any determinable ellipsis, it simply expresses the indirect object (often with intransitive verbs). We can try and come up with what exactly was omitted, but in reality nothing is – the construction is complete the way it is. «Тебе не сдобровать», «вам не убежать», «ему не жить», «мне такое сказать» cannot be restored with any verb in the modern standard language.

The problem with Rosett's sentence is that *кажется* can only be a parenthesis in this case («мне отпустить, кажется, было бы...»), and even then it's superfluous.


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## Drink

Awwal12 said:


> And what does exactly mean "мне отпустить"?
> The infinitive allows direct connection with the agents standing in the dative case only in some elliptical constructions mentioned above: мне (следует) ее отпустить?, как мне (можно) правильно сделать закваску, etc.; but here we don't have any possible modal predicative to insert. Hopefully you don't speak in phrases like "это желание мне выпить водки" - it's just... not Russian (note that you may encounter phrases like "возможность мне туда пойти" and similar ones due to the interference with the predicative "можно", but strictly speaking they are still agrammatical).
> If you meant something else, please, draw the connection between the words in the sentence as you imagine it. To me none possible variant looks grammatical enough.



Мне here goes with было. For example, "Мне это кажется было бы безумием", and now replace это with the infinitive phrase "отпустить Катю одну".


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## Awwal12

Drink said:


> Мне here goes with было. For example, "Мне это кажется было бы безумием", and now replace это with the infinitive phrase "отпустить Катю одну".


*sigh* Okay. Now explain me, please, what in the world the phrases "мне это было безумием" or "тебе это будет целесообразностью" are supposed to mean.
Okay, maybe it some occasional or dialectal (and anyway illiterate in the context) replacement of "по мне"/"для меня". But the word order is still strictly abnormal. Subordinate clauses just don't behave that way, they don't intermix with the main clauses and don't surround them from the both sides. It's like I would stand up and say "вчера ты я до сих пор не знаю того что мне хотел сказать". Gibberish.


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## Sobakus

Awwal12 said:


> *sigh* Okay. Now explain me, please, what in the world the phrases "мне это было безумием" or "тебе это будет целесообразностью" are supposed to mean.
> Okay, maybe it some occasional or dialectal (and anyway illiterate in the context) replacement of "по мне"/"для меня".


It doesn't mean anything different from what it means in «что русскому было бы хорошо, то немцу было бы смертью» – it just hasn't become standardised.


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## 123xyz

Awwal12's interpretation of the sentence is the correct one. "мне" goes with "кажется". Meanwhile, "отпустить Катю одну" belongs to the subordinate clause starting with "что", but has in this sentence been inserted between "мне" and "кажется". So, we're not supposed to analyse "кажется" as an independent comment that can be translated as "seemingly" (a parenthesis, as Sobakus said), nor do we need to explore the sequence "мне отпустить", with reference to similar constructions such as "мне можно пойти туда", because there is in fact no such sequence here. The two words are next to each other, but they don't form a unit. Overall, Awwal12's gibberish sentence seems to be a good parallel example, although it displaces other kinds of elements (not non-finite verbs with their associated complements)

This is what the sentence looks like if marked:

мне [отпустить Катю одну]*i* кажется, что ___*i* было бы безумием.

I have co-indexed the gap with the displaced phrase to show that there is a long-distance dependency between.

So, with regard to _this_ reading of the sentence, setting aside the other ones that some of you have proposed (and setting aside the modifications to the sentence some of you made, like Rosett removing the "что"), I'm not sure where we stand. Rusita says that the sentence is not something that would be heard, Awwal12 rejects it as ungrammatical, and Rosett changes it - these are all reactions that question its validity to various degrees. Only Sobakus says that he could see it in a poem (and there's no suggestion that he misread it). I don't know if I should write to the authors of the textbook to change their sentence or not. Either way, thank you for the discussion.


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## Rosett

Мне goes with кажется, i.e., "Мне кажется, отпустить её (Катю одну) было бы безумием".


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## estreets

123xyz said:


> Мне отпустить Катю одну кажется, что было бы безумием.
> 
> This sentence is supposedly a colloquial alternative of "мне кажется, что отпустить Катю одну было бы безумием".


To me, this phrase seems absolutely ungrammatical and the only cause for it to exist is that the speaker was struggling to find words (мучительно подбирал слова) or speaking before thinking. The sentence is atypical of Russian.
Not even in poetry.


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## 123xyz

Thank you for your opinion. I have now written to the authors of the textbook to reconsider this sentence.


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