# авторитет в народе / среди народа / у народа



## pimlicodude

This is also from Solzhenitsyn, quoting Gessen:


> Кагалы, не пользуясь авторитетом в народе, поддерживали своё господство благодаря именно содействию правительства


Is it right to say авторитет в народе?  I had assumed авторитет среди народа?


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## Vovan

The two phrases are synonymous.
For the shade of meaning, see post #3.

_(Edited.)_


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## GCRaistlin

Здесь народ рассматривается как единая сущность, состоящая из множества единиц. Поэтому правильнее - _авторитет в народе. _Но: _авторитет среди людей _(среди множества отдельных сущностей).


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## Enquiring Mind

> Экс-президент СССР подчеркнул, что в сложной международной обстановке и непростой обстановке внутри страны необходимо, чтобы глава государства имел большой авторитет у народа. (rossaprimavera.ru)


"Aвторитет *у* народа" also looks like an option - there's an Ngram which, for all its shortcomings, probably tells us something.


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## pimlicodude

Thank you, everyone.


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## nizzebro

Enquiring Mind said:


> "Aвторитет *у* народа" also looks like an option


The verb used matters - as both авторитет and народ are its dependents.

_Пользоваться авторитетом у X_ sounds clumsy because that sounds as if taking it from X.


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## Vovan

nizzebro said:


> _Пользоваться авторитетом у X_ sounds clumsy because that sounds as if taking it from X.


Sorry but I absolutely can't agree with that, both as a native speaker of Russian and due to the fact that "*пользоваться авторитетом у*" has occurred more than once in university manuals of Russian (including those published by Moscow University) and in various dictionaries (including those of idiomatic collocations).


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## nizzebro

Vovan said:


> Sorry but I absolutely can't agree with that, both as a native speaker of Russian and due to the fact that "*пользоваться авторитетом у*" has occurred more than once in university manuals of Russian (including those published by Moscow University) and in various dictionaries (including those of idiomatic collocations).


Agreed; probably my post was too categorical, I should have written "to my opinion".

To my opinion, there is some internal inconsistency in the phrase.
_Пользоваться уважением у ... - _This is consistent: they _respect _you, and you are "using" that.
_Пользоваться авторитетом у ... - _does not look such according tho the pattern above, because авторитет has no verbal component and appears not as coming from those dependent people, but rather a quality of the subject. It turns out that "авторитет у X" is an independent construction - but it cannot be used such way.

This phrase as such is rather formal than casual, that's why I'm a bit sensitive about it. As for universities, I cannot say those are  авторитет-s to me, for some reason


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## pimlicodude

nizzebro said:


> Agreed; probably my post was too categorical, I should have written "to my opinion".
> 
> To my opinion, there is some internal inconsistency in the phrase.
> _Пользоваться уважением у ... - _This is consistent: they _respect _you, and you are "using" that.
> _Пользоваться авторитетом у ... - _does not look such according tho the pattern above, because авторитет has no verbal component and appears not as coming from those dependent people, but rather a quality of the subject.
> 
> This phrase as such is more formal than casual, that's why I'm a bit sensitive about it. As for universities, I cannot say those are  авторитет-s to me, for some reason


 So if you change the verb, it makes more sense to have у?
There is a 6th grade essay on the Internet (for kids who want to cheat in school) called "Почему Владимир Мономах имел авторитет у народа?"


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## nizzebro

pimlicodude said:


> имел авторитет у народа?"


This one at least does not create an associative ambiguity within the phrase. 
I'd say the issue is the word авторитет itself, which, as a semantical unit, is somewhat infelicitous in fitting in natural patterns. And, as you know, иметь X is basically  not a native Russian pattern, but it exactly helps to overcome issues with many such notions, forcing them into a more rational construction.


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## Vovan

My opinion on the matter of possible (!) nuances:

*пользоваться авторитетом:*

"*в/на*" usually refers to a real social group or an area of activity: *на работе, в народе, во власти, в какой-то области (знаний/умений), в каких-то кругах, в каком-то обществе, в какой-то среде и т.п.*;
"*среди*" refers to specific statistical groups only and implies a significant/sufficient number of people (unless otherwise stated): *среди домохозяек, среди мясоедов, среди молодёжи, среди представителей какого-то класса и т.д.*;
"*у*" is the most straightforward and natural way to refer to people: *у них/него..., у некоторых, у значительного числа/количества и т.д.*.
Of course, many nouns, when used in the plural or as collective nouns (such as "народ"), may be treated differently, based on how the speaker sees the group (s)he's talking about:

_В народе он пользуется авторитетом._ (A specificity and unity of the group may be emphasized: e.g. "народ" vs. "власть", or "простой народ" vs. "элиты и/или элитарно настроенные граждане.)​_Среди народа он пользуется авторитетом. _(Some partiality may be implied: "среди значительной части".)​_У народа он пользуется авторитетом._ (Neutral, but less specific than the two other options.)​


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## nizzebro

I'd like to correct myself in #8:
In _пользоваться уважением у народа, _that 'у' is as well logically something extra.
It would be enough to use the genitive - _пользоваться уважением народа - _or_, народным уважением; _with that, and, a fair peasant who are free from the torture of formal language, would just say: _народ его уважает._ 




Vovan said:


> У народа он пользуется авторитетом


And with topical fronting it sounds better.

But:
У народа он пользуется _своим _авторитетом 
versus
Он пользуется _своим _авторитетом _у _народа.
Which is, however, another meaning, as пользоваться gets the direct sense, but somehow reveals the vague nature of авторитет.


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## Vovan

nizzebro said:


> _Пользоваться авторитетом у X_ sounds clumsy because that sounds as if taking it from X. <...> Авторитет has no verbal component and appears not as coming from those dependent people, but rather a quality of the subject.


But is it a real quality of the subject, or merely something imaginary?  "Держать за авторитет" may well have its sad consequences: people may become less critical, more susceptible to manipulation, more compliant... Some "авторитеты" are eager to exploit all of that!

(Just  kidding. On a serious note, though, I barely see your point as valid in terms of normative usage.)


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## Vovan

nizzebro said:


> It would be enough to use the genitive - _пользоваться уважением народа - _or_, народным уважением; _with that, and, a fair peasant who are free from the torture of formal language, would just say: _народ его уважает._


Brilliant!


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## Maroseika

Accoridng to gramota.ru variants пользоваться авторитетом в коллективе / у коллектива are equal.


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## nizzebro

Vovan said:


> But is it a real quality of the subject, or merely something imaginary?


Yes it is; probably the tricky part is that it is the same as status - which is  not a quality-in-itself as strength or beauty, but involves an impact on others-  so complexity arises when the matter is not getting or losing that status but just having it as an attribute.


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## Vovan

nizzebro said:


> Yes it is <...> complexity arises when the matter is not getting or losing that status but just having it as an attribute.


 This "attribute" is only existent when those holding him/her as an authority are around! As an objectively existing thing, it's primarily in their heads (and secondly, in the eyes of the observers, of which (s)he may be one).


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