# אשר



## elianecanspeak

(From "Hamavdil")

How do you translate  *אֲשֶׁר *  in the following phrase?
Does it mean *"which, that"* (which doesn't seem to make sense in the context) or is it a *verb form*?

 יוֹם *אֲשֶׁר* אָמַר שׁוֹמֵר  



Thanks for any help --


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## arielipi

A day in which a guard said.
A day that in which...
a day such that in which....


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## elianecanspeak

Hmm ... let me provide the context of the entire verse :

יוֹם פָּּּּנָה כְְּצֵל תּוֹמֶר 
אֶקְרָה לָאֵכ עָלַי גּוֹמֵר
יוֹם *אֲשֶׂר *אָמַר שׂוֹמֵר 
אָתָה בֹּקֶר וְגַם לַיְלָה


I'm not great with niqqudot, so I apologize if I have mistakes.


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## elianecanspeak

Could it mean anything like *"day has fallen" *  (or "set", like the sun setting?) * "said the watchman, morning came, and then night"*?

(I had made a note saying  "אֲשֶׁר    =נָשַׁר=  fall, drop", but didn't note my source.)


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## Drink

elianecanspeak said:


> Hmm ... let me provide the context of the entire verse :
> 
> יוֹם פָּּּּנָה כְְּצֵל תּוֹמֶר
> אֶקְרָה לָאֵכ עָלַי גּוֹמֵר
> יוֹם *אֲשֶׂר *אָמַר שׂוֹמֵר
> אָתָה בֹּקֶר וְגַם לַיְלָה
> 
> 
> I'm not great with niqqudot, so I apologize if I have mistakes.



יוֹם פָּנָה כְּצֵל תּוֹמֶר
אֶקְרָא לָאֵל עָלַי גּוֹמֵר
יוֹם אֲשֶׁר אָמַר שׁוֹמֵר
אָתָה בוֹקֶר וְגַם לָיְלָה



elianecanspeak said:


> Could it mean anything like *"day has fallen" *  (or "set", like the sun setting?) * "said the watchman, morning came, and then night"*?
> 
> (I had made a note saying  "אֲשֶׁר    =נָשַׁר=  fall, drop", but didn't note my source.)



The word "אשר" with the vowels "אֲשֶׁר" can only be the conjunction that is approximately equivalent to English "that". It cannot be any form of the verbs with roots נ-שׁ-ר or א-שׁ-ר with those vowels.


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## origumi

elianecanspeak said:


> Could it mean anything like *"day has fallen" *  (or "set", like the sun setting?) * "said the watchman, morning came, and then night"*?


This is Isaiah 21:12, with many exegeses.

To understand אשר you can compare to the piyyut קרב יום:
קָרֵב יוֹם אֲשֶׁר הוּא לֹא יוֹם וְלֹא לַיְלָה ... שׁוֹמְרִים הַפְקֵד לְעִירְךָ כָּל הַיּוֹם וְכָל הַלַּיְלָה 

The previous verse is based on Psalms 57:3
אֶקְרָא לֵאלֹהִים עֶלְיוֹן לָאֵל גֹּמֵר עָלָי


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## elianecanspeak

I had looked at the Isaiah, but it didn't help me with the "יוֹם *אֲשֶׂר *"  part of the phrase. I looked at mechon-mamre and a number of other translations, but they didn't help with my understanding of the grammar of  "יוֹם *אֲשֶׂר *" .  

Could you tell me what the literal translation would be?
"_Day,  which the watchman spoke of, is coming_" (?)

How would arielipi's translations in the second post fit?

(And thanks for the tehillim reference.)


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## origumi

A day (in / for) which, said a guard, came morning and also night.

אתה in Isaiah is usually regarded as Aramaic אתא.


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## elianecanspeak

origumi said:


> אתה in Isaiah is usually regarded as Aramaic אתא.


I did find that in brown driver briggs ("אָתָא=come (root אָתָה) _poetic "_), but didn't know about the aramaic connection.



origumi said:


> A day (in / for) which, said a guard, came morning and also night.


That is so much more beautiful and complex than the usual English translation, especially with the echo from genesis.


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## Albert Schlef

This reminds me of two other poems that have:

יוֹם אֶזְכְּרָה חֶטְאִי אֲנִי אֶתְחָרְטָה

...

יוֹם אֶזְכְּרָה יִפְעַת רַבַּת צְבָאַיִךְ

We see that "אשר בו" was dropped. Or maybe I'm wrong. What's the meaning of "יום אזכרה" here? Is my understanding, that we can drop "in which", is correct?

Can we say "יום אמר שומר" instead of "יום אשר אמר שומר"?


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## origumi

I suggested above that this piyyut is related to קרב יום in regard to the line we discuss, therefore contains אשר. There are many examples since the Bible where אשר is dropped.


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## Albert Schlef

origumi said:


> I suggested above that this piyyut is related to קרב יום in regard to the line we discuss, therefore contains אשר.



Ok, thanks.



origumi said:


> There are many examples [in] the Bible where אשר is dropped.



Could you please give some examples? (as many as you remember)
(But don't work hard: just type fragments of verses, they don't need to be exact or with niqqud, and I'll look them up.)


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## origumi

Too busy to compile a list, later. For now take יאבד יום, איוולד בו.


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## Albert Schlef

origumi said:


> Too busy to compile a list, later. For now take יאבד יום, איוולד בו.



Voila! Thanks. If you recall (now or later) more examples, please write them here; it's very interesting.

I have a question:

I want to know if the following issue is related to what we were discussing here:

 We can drop the "ש" (or the "אשר") in the following sentences:

הישיבה שבה נכח השר הסתיימה

 האיש שאותו ראיתי נפטר

Is this the same thing that we encountered in the biblical verses? or is this an unrelated issue?


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## origumi

ב-1967 התפרסם ספרו של הבלשן יצחק פרץ, "משפט הזיקה בעברית לכל תקופותיה", וממנו מתחוור כי משפטי זיקה חסרי ש' השימוש ליוו את העברית כמעט לאורך כל הדורות. בלשון המקרא רווחת התופעה הזאת מאוד, אך היא נעלמת כמעט לחלוטין בלשון חז"ל - כנראה בהשפעת הארמית או היוונית. בימי הביניים, ההשפעה הערבית מעודדת את חזרתה בלשון התרגומים ובשירת ספרד. את הופעתה בשלישית, בספרות העברית החדשה, אפשר לייחס להשפעות מקראיות, ערביות, ויידיות-גרמניות.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/literature/1.1014038 (המאמר עונה ישירות ועם דוגמאות לשאלתך האחרונה)


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## Albert Schlef

@origumi: Thanks! Nice article.

(In my two sentences there's "בו" and "אותו" and I thought perhaps it's only these two that make the dropping of the "ש" excusable in modern Hebrew.)


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## Drink

I don't know if this is related, but in Arabic, the word equivalent to אשר is only used with definite nouns. For example:
- *אל*אכל *אלתי* אכלתה = *the* food *that* I ate = *ה*אוכל *אשר* אכלתיהו
- אכל אכלתה = food I ate = אוכל אכלתיהו

To me, this suggests the possibility that at one time this word was completely optional, just as it is in English, but came into more widespread usage because it clarifies the meaning of the sentence.


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## hadronic

It reminds me also of some similar set expressions in the modern language : בימים עברו for בימים שעברו  (in days that have passed, a long time ago), דבר לא-ייאמן (a thing that will not be believed, an unbelievable thing)...
Question: in order to say "the unbelievable thing" using that same לא ייאמן, how would you say ? הדבר הלא-ייאמן ?


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## arielipi

הדבר הלא יאומן בא יותר טבעי לי.


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