# Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves



## imak117

Hi im having a tattoo and decided I really want the quote in latin 

Can anyone tell me the latin translation for the following 

'Not until we are lost do we begin to understand ourselves'

It is a quote by Henry David Thoreau.

'Lost' is meant in the context of a person being lost, or lost their way, if that helps  

Any help here would be really great
Thankyou very much 

Iain


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## Scholiast

Greetings

There's quite a market for tattoos with Latin inscriptions at the moment. Perhaps I have missed my vocation?

Anyway, to answer the question, This quotation certainly lends itself to the style of Latin epigram or motto.

One possibility might be:

_viam perdendo nos [ipsos] invenimus_

Literally "in losing the way we find ourselves_".

_If you want it more literal you have to use more words - one way would be _nisi viam perdideris__, te ipsum invenire non poteris coepisse._ But this is long and prosaic and clumsy.

Wait for other answers, though, before you decide.Σ


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## imak117

Thanks so much for the help! 

I actually really like your idea on the translation 'in losing the way we find ourselves' 

viam perdendo nos [ipsos] inveni

The part of the quote (ipsos) is in brackets? Would this need to be in brackets or are they not required? And what does that word actually mean? 

Sorry for all the questions ha. Really like that version of the quote though so thankyou again  

Iain


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## wandle

In Scholiast's suggestion, *nos ipsos* compared with plain *nos* does not alter the semantic meaning: it simply adds a degree of emphasis to 'ourselves'. This is a nuance practically impossible to convey in English.
Both _*nos invenimus*_ and _*nos ipsos invenimus*_ mean 'we find ourselves'.

*perdere* strikes me as rather a strong verb for the context, though. Another way would be:

*nemo nisi via amissa sibi patescit*: literal meaning, _'nobody, unless he has lost his way, is revealed to himself_'.


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## imak117

Thankyou for replying and explaining, much appreciated.

It is comforting to know two people are in agreement over the translation. 

I like the version including 'ipsos' as I like that it emphasises 'ourselves' as I believe that to be the integral part of the quote....

Thanks again


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## wandle

Well, I am not completely agreeing with *Scholiast*: I am suggesting that the word *perdendo* is not quite appropriate as it implies somehow culpable abandoning or wasting of something (perhaps *Scholiast* will have something to say about that).


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## Scholiast

Greetings again

In response to wandle's #6, yes I agree that _perdere_ is not quite right (I did think about this), but to my mind neither is _amittere_, for "to lose one's way" seems to me to be idiomatically an Anglism, and we cannot "mislay" a road or a track.

_falsis itineribus nos invenimus_?

Σ


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## imak117

Wow, really glad im getting help here and not just relying on a translation website, it seems quite ambiguous. 

Im really quite fond of the expression 'in losing the way we find ourselves' now, so if there is a way of a direct translation for that which you both agree upon, that would be perfect  

Thanks again


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## Schimmelreiter

What about
_
Devio ergo me invenio
Devians me invenio_


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## Quiviscumque

Excuse me, Scholiast and wandle, but neither "perdere" nor "amittere": I prefer "errare via".

_via errando nos ipsos invenimus_


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## Scholiast

Greetings again

Quiviscumque has it (#10). _errare_ is absolutely right, and I am kicking myself for not thinking of it. But surely with the gerund _errando_, _via_ must be accusative, _viam_. Or perhaps closer to the sense of the original inquiry, an abl. abs., _*erratis viis* nos invenimus_.

quid sentiunt alii?

Σ


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## Quiviscumque

"Errare via" (abl.) is classic, I think (Aeneidos 2.739).
Perhaps we could use my beloved participle:

"Via errantes, nos ipsos invenimus"


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## imak117

Thanks again for your input here everyone  

So it seems the latter part of the quote is definitely 'nos ipsos invenimus' which I take to mean 'we find ouselves'

Is 'via errantes' suitable for the first part of the quote 'in losing the way'?  

Thanks again


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## wandle

Quiviscumque said:


> Excuse me, Scholiast and wandle, but neither "perdere" nor "amittere":


Quite right, as I ought to have recognised!


> I prefer "errare via"._via errando nos ipsos invenimus_


The ablative is fine, and the gerund here seems to me the best option for the preference expressed by *imak117*

However, *nos ipsos invenimus* 'we find ourselves' is more than the original says: 'begin to understand ourselves'. Finding ourselves is the outcome, rather than the beginning, of the process of self-understanding.

Hence I would recommend dropping _*ipsos*_, which is not essential, and putting *primum* ('first') instead:
_*via errando nos primum invenimus*_ 
_It is in wandering off the track that we first discover ourselves_.


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## imak117

Thanks very much for the reply. 

Very happy with the translation  

Good to know a few opinions on the matter. 

Thanks again


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