# non si può non citare (doppia negazione)



## frodo.jedi

Hi everybody
I ask an help to translate ''non si può non citare'' in this context:
''A tal proposito non si può non citare la frase di....''

It is a more general question: how can I translate the form ''non....non''?

Thanks in advance


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## Murphy

One suggestion:
 ".....it is impossible/difficult not to quote......".


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## frodo.jedi

Thans for answearing ...it is not exactly wath I want to say...

Are there other suggestions please?


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## london calling

frodo.jedi said:


> Thans for answearing ...it is not exactly wath I want to say...
> 
> Are there other suggestions please?


 
Murphy ha tradotto bene la tua frase! Allora, cos'è che volevi tradurre esattamente? Ci scrivi qualche frase in italiano con una tua prova di traduzione, così vediamo di aiutarti?


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## frodo.jedi

Ciao, grazie mille per l'aiuto.
Io non voglio dire che è impossibile o difficile non citare, ma vorrei proprio
tradurre la forma italiana NON si può NON citare

Questa ricade nel contesto più generale della doppia negazione dell'italiano.

Esempio: ''non si può non dire che questo sia un bel paesaggio''. Significa che 
nessuno può negare questo non è un bel paesaggio.

Spero di essermi spiegato bene.


Vi ringrazio


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## london calling

frodo.jedi said:


> Esempio: ''non si può non dire che questo sia un bel paesaggio''. Significa che nessuno può negare questo non è un bel paesaggio.You can't say that this isn't a beautiful place! You can't not quote him!


Ripeto, va benissimo anche quello che ha detto murphy!


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## frodo.jedi

E se traducessi ''We can't not cite'' è sbagliato?


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## giovannino

What about: "One cannot help quoting..." or "One cannot help but quote..."?


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## miri

I believe Frodo would like to know if using two negations in the same sentence is correct and common. That's why he/she was not satisfied with Murphy's reply, which was perfect,of course, but did  not answer a more general question: can you say "it is *not* possible *not* to say"? Or "You *can't* *not* quote/You *can't* *not* do" and the like?
Jo's examples, however, should have sufficed to infer that you can.


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## london calling

frodo.jedi said:


> E se traducessi ''We can't not cite'' è sbagliato?


Dipende dal contesto nel quale la vuoi usare. Da freedictionary.com:

*cite* 
_Verb_
[*citing*, *cited*] 
*1*. to quote or refer to (a passage, book, or author) 
*2*. to bring forward as proof 
*3*. to summon to appear before a court of law 
*4*. to mention or commend (someone) for outstanding bravery 
*5*. to enumerate: _the president cited the wonders of the American family_ 

Diciamo che in genere, se vogliamo dire citare un autore, useremmo più _to quote, _ma_ to cite_ non è sbagliato.


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## You little ripper!

miri said:


> I believe Frodo would like to know if using two negations in the same sentence is correct and common. That's why he/she was not satisfied with Murphy's reply, which was perfect,of course, but did not answer a more general question: can you say "it is *not* possible *not* to say"? Or "You *can't* *not* quote/You *can't* *not* do" and the like?
> Jo's examples, however, should have sufficed to infer that you can.


 
*You can't not but/It's not ......not* are used in English, but aren't that common.

*You can't not but fall in love with this place!*
*You can't not but feel that you're in heaven when you hear Charlotte Church sing!*

*It's not possible not to think of him every time you hear that music.*
*It's not possible not to worry about your kids when they are not with you.*


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## baldpate

miri said:


> I believe Frodo would like to know if using two negations in the same sentence is correct and common. That's why he/she was not satisfied with Murphy's reply, which was perfect,of course, but did not answer a more general question: can you say "it is *not* possible *not* to say"? Or "You *can't* *not* quote/You *can't* *not* do" and the like?
> Jo's examples [You can't say that this isn't a beautiful place! You can't not quote him!], however, should have sufficed to infer that you can.


Ma si nota che entrambi gli esempi finiscono con il punto esclamativo! Sebbene sia possibile usare il doppio not in frasi dichiarative, preferisciamo in generale evitarlo cambiando una parte o l'altra in _forma_ positiva ma mantenedo il _senso_ negativo.
Prendiamo, per esempio, una frase basato su quello del primo post:
''A tal proposito non si può non citare la frase del noto scienziato Einstein _Dio non gioca a dadi"_
Non sarebbe precisamente una sgrammatura tradurlo con
''In this regard one cannot help not quoting the dictum of the noted scientist Einstein: _God does not play dice",_
ma suona male e non credo che un madrelingua inglese lo direbbe mai cosi'.
Invece, preferirebbe dire
''In this regard one cannot help but quote the........."_,_
''In this regard one cannot avoid quoting the........."_,_
''In this regard it is impossible not to quote the........."_,_
ecc. Si vede che in tutte e tre esempi, un termine o l'altro e' stato cambiato, mantenedo il significato negativo ma evitando un secondo uso di "not".


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## RobertdiLondra

I can't not fail to submit a reply ! (this phrase sounds awful to me). Double negatives are too be avoided if possible in English as they sound terrible and reverse the meaning. Do not put the following on a job application "I have never committed no crime" unless you want to say you have done. Depending on the phrase rather than using the words "can't not" it is perhaps better to use "should" or "ought to". In your example the translation of london calling is perfect "You can't say that this isn't a beautiful place!" as "you can't not say it is a beautiful place" sounds slightly awkward. 
I hope this helps ?

Perhaps of interest to Italians is that in certain cities in England you may hear people say (in poor English " I aint got no money on me " when they mean to say they haven't got any money ! The British boxer Frank Bruno said "I ain't got no right to judge someone" which was not what he intended to say if you know what I mean.


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## miri

Thank you Charles, Baldpate and Robert for your very interesting remarks!
Robert, I Knew that the use of double negations (such as not + no/ not + nothing etc.) is a mark of uneducated speech in English. The examples provided by Frodo were different, though, even if I understand that they sound awkward and should be avoided. 
Here is a thorough investigation into the matter which expands on what you  have already clearly explained.


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## frodo.jedi

So, I cannot avoid thanking you all! 

Really thanks.


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## Einstein

In some cases we've got too many negatives!
From Charles:


> You can't not but fall in love with this place! You cannot but fall...
> You can't not but feel that you're in heaven when you hear Charlotte Church sing! You cannot but feel...


From Robert:


> I can't not fail to submit a reply ! I can't fail...


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## miri

I *can't not* agree with you, Einstein , but this is the subject we are investigating!


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## Einstein

No, miri, I'm not misunderstanding the thread! We're talking about double negatives; in the two examples I've quoted we've got triple negatives!

If I *fail* to do something, I don't do it.
If I *can't fail* to do it, that's a double negative, meaning that I do it. That is the subject we're investigating; in general the double negatives we're discussing are not incorrect and we're only looking at what sounds natural.
*I can't not fail* is a triple negative; I think somebody got carried away.

Charles' last example, _*It's not possible not to think...*_ is only a double negative, no problem.


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## miri

Sorry Einstein! Now I can see what you mean. For example "to fail" means "sottrarsi",(in Robert's sentence) so "I can't not fail" would be "non posso non sottrarmi" = I can fail to submit a reply = posso fare a meno di rispondere 
Or am I getting mixed up??? Yes, I guess I'd better take a nap! ))


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## You little ripper!

Einstein said:


> Charles' last example, _*It's not possible not to think...*_ is only a double negative, no problem.


Einstein, are you saying that my first two examples are not?


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## london calling

RobertdiLondra said:


> I can't not fail to submit a reply ! I've never come across that one! Do they really say it? (this phrase sounds awful to me - ditto!). Double negatives are too be avoided if possible in English as they sound terrible and reverse the meaning. Do not put the following on a job application "I have never committed no crime" unless you want to say you have done. Robert, I don't know about that...to me the meaning here isn't reversed! It's just bad English, I wouldn't take it to mean "I've committed a crime".


 

I've just noticed Einstein has mentioned _I can't fail to reply_ (non posso non rispondere) ; in this particular case I would agree that the meaning is positive,_ I will reply_. Regards the _I can't but..._ structure, same thing, I suppose! I'm getting confused, however - einstein, why would we call these double negatives?


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## Einstein

To Londoncalling: they're double negatives in their meaning, if not in the number of nots they contain.
I reply - I fail to reply - I can't fail to reply.
I can fall in love - I can't fall in love - I can't but fall in love.

To Charles: _I can't but fall in love_ is a bit literary, but acceptable English. You're putting in an extra _not_. Don't you agree?


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## RobertdiLondra

1) "I have never committed no crime" means at no time have I not been acting illegally thus by inference "I've committed a crime". In fact as you say it is very poor English and similar comments can be heard as in the examples I gave previously. The word "NO" should be replaced by "a". 

2) I apologise for my sarcasm in saying _I can't fail to reply_ meaning I must succeed in doing so. Non posso non rispondere but the suggestion I wanted to make is that it is preferable to avoid the words "can't not" and an alternative way of saying the same thing would avoid pitfalls. The thread ran away after my comment.


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## london calling

RobertdiLondra said:


> 1) "I have never committed no crime" means at no time have I not been acting illegally thus by inference "I've committed a crime". In fact as you say it is very poor English and similar comments can be heard as in the examples I gave previously. The word "NO" should be replaced by "a". That's interesting, I had never thought of it that way at all and the reverse meaning was therefore lost to me!
> 2) I apologise for my sarcasm in saying _I can't fail to reply_ meaning I must succeed in doing so. I was referring to "I can't not fail to reply" (which I took as a joke, as to me it's incomprehensible!) Non posso non rispondere but the suggestion I wanted to make is that it is preferable to avoid the words "can't not" I couldn't agree more! and an alternative way of saying the same thing would avoid pitfalls. The thread ran away after my comment.


 
Thanks (and to einstein too!).


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## You little ripper!

Einstein said:


> To Charles: _I can't but fall in love_ is a bit literary, but acceptable English. You're putting in an extra _not_. Don't you agree?


 I should have mentioned that even though you do hear that construction occasionally most people who use it mean exactly the opposite of what they are saying, so I agree with you. The only time that that construction would mean what the person actually says is if they intended the *but* to mean *only* in that sentence (it's hardly likely that someone would use it that way, but it is possible). 

So as a general rule, yes, you're right - it's incorrect.


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## Schrodinger's_Cat

In English and other languages, double negatives cancel one another and produce an affirmative sense.

*Non voglio non mangiare* =  literally, it is, "I don't want not to eat", but it is not exactly, "I want to eat"


What is the meaning? When can you say that?


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## rrose17

Doesn't it mean something like I don't want to starve myself? Or I don't want to miss my supper?


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## london calling

Non voglio non mangiare, ma non ho molta fame, per cui preferisco non mangiare tanto - mi basta un panino.
_I don't not want  to eat, but I'm not very hungry so I don't want to eat a lot - a roll's enough_.

Does that help? The underlining is just to see how the sentences are stressed when speaking, obviously.


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## ItosLemma

However illogical it sounds (to an English-speaker), I thought I had made my peace with the Italian double negative, as in these examples:

"Il nostro tentativo non ha (o non è) approdato a nulla."
"Mi spiace dirtelo, ma penso che tutti i tuoi sforzi non approderanno a nulla."

But then I find this example:
"Questa indagine, come molte altre, approderà a nulla." (source: Frasi con approderà - esempi)

Does that mean the double negative "non" is optional, just a matter of style??


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## Pietruzzo

ItosLemma said:


> Does that mean the double negative "non" is optional, just a matter of style??


Let's say that not using it is a peculiar stylistic choice.


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## Paulfromitaly

ItosLemma said:


> Does that mean the double negative "non" is optional, just a matter of style??


I agree with pietruzzo - although comprehensible, it wouldn't sound idiomatic, but rather something an English speaker might say.


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## Bookmom

I have a lot of gadgets in my kitchen that sit in a drawer unused most of the time. But, when I have a lobster claw to crack or a pineapple to core, I know I have exactly the thing I need to do the job.

That's how I feel about the "you can't not" construction. You may not use it often, you may have to dig through the drawer to drag it out and dust it off, but, sometimes, it's just what you need to do the job and you can't not have it in your linguistic gadget drawer.

It's so positively negatively affirming! 

If you're anywhere near it, you can't not take a smiling selfie with the Leaning Tower of Pisa in the background.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

You little ripper! said:


> *You can't not but/It's not ......not* are used in English, but aren't that common.
> 
> *You can't not but fall in love with this place!
> You can't not but feel that you're in heaven when you hear Charlotte Church sing!
> 
> It's not possible not to think of him every time you hear that music.
> It's not possible not to worry about your kids when they are not with you.*



Here, I'd say "but out!":

*You can't not fall in love with this place! 
You can't not feel...*

with the meanings of your second pair of sentences. Or, as suggested, "It's impossible not to (verb)..."


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## ItosLemma

Bookmom said:


> I have a lot of gadgets in my kitchen that sit in a drawer unused most of the time. But, when I have a lobster claw to crack or a pineapple to core, I know I have exactly the thing I need to do the job.
> 
> That's how I feel about the "you can't not" construction. You may not use it often, you may have to dig through the drawer to drag it out and dust it off, but, sometimes, it's just what you need to do the job and you can't not have it in your linguistic gadget drawer.
> 
> It's so positively negatively affirming!
> 
> If you're anywhere near it, you can't not take a smiling selfie with the Leaning Tower of Pisa in the background.


But your example totally misses the point.  Your "can't not" works, in English, because it conveys, logically, the meaning you intend: "can't not" = "must, have to".  (Negating a negative yields a positive:  --3 = +3).  And, by it's awkwardness, emphasizes that positive.  In Italian the double negative seems to be just the negative: "can't not" = "not".  At first I thought that might be a (peculiar, to English ears) way to emphasize, reinforce the negative.  But the comments I received on this thread suggest otherwise, that it's a standard, unemphasized negation, the single negation being comprehensible but "stylistically peculiar". 
BTW, I would never, ever (maybe I should emphasize that with a double "never"!) take a "selfie"!



ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> Here, I'd say "but out!':
> 
> *You can't not fall in love with this place!
> You can't not feel...*
> 
> with the meanings of your second pair of sentences. Or, as suggested, "It's impossible not to (verb)..."


You, too, miss the point.  (See response to other reply.)  All those double negatives in English just emphasize the logical meaning, which is a positive. Whereas an Italian double negative apparently means just a straightforward negative.


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## Bookmom

ItosLemma said:


> You, too, miss the point.  (See response to other reply.)  All those double negatives in English just emphasize the logical meaning, which is a positive. Whereas an Italian double negative apparently means just a straightforward negative.


Well, hello ItosLemma. Nice to meet you, too.

I can't not observe that "non si può non citare (doppia negazione)" is absolutely  not a straightforward negative, it is absolutely an affirmation. You can not not cite = you must  cite...

I'll keep that linguistic gadget and put it to good use when called for.


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## ItosLemma

My original post related to the examples I posted, not to "non si può non citare".   Google Translate renders it as: "one cannot fail to mention".   Not that Google is always correct, though in this case its rendering seems ok to me, as does your "you must cite".   However, note something about this example.  There are two negatives (two "non").   But also two verbs:  potere and citare.   To which verbs do the non apply?   You want to distribute them as English speakers (both of us) would:  one non to potere (" non si può"), the other to citare ("non citare").   But look at the quotation in full:   "non si può non citare (doppia negazione)".   The distribution of the "non" that is instinctive to both of us does Not constitute a "doppia negazione"!  There are Two verbs, each of which is being negated Once.   A true "doppia negazione" would have to negate at least one of the verbs twice.  If this quotation does that, which is the doubly negated verb?   Until that's clarified I'll assume that "non si può non citare" is NOT "doppia negazione".   It's thus irrelevant to my original posting.   Except, perhaps, in this sense: the Italian responders to my posting claimed that the "single negation" in my example was comprehensible but "peculiar".   Would this example also be peculiar, as it seems to be two separate single negations?  

I know, I know -- I shouldn't try to impose logic on language!   If the Italian Man on the Street gets it  --  Basta!


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## Pietruzzo

ItosLemma said:


> Until that's clarified I'll assume that "non si può non citare" is NOT "doppia negazione". It's thus irrelevant to my original posting


Or, more precisely, your examples are off topic here, since "non si può non citare" is the title of this thread.


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## ItosLemma

I did not knowingly put my examples in this thread.  Or any thread.  I think I just entered it as a New Post.  I only noticed that phrase ( "non si può non citare" ) after looking at some responses.  But then I'm new to this posting business, so I might not have noticed the thread identification.  (Would like to know how it wound up there.)  Be that as it may, my examples are NOT off topic, since they pose a question about double negation, and the thread topic is identified ( in the entries I've read) as "non si può non citare (doppia negazione)".   Of course it's double negation in the trivial sense that there are two negations. But for two verbs, which, per se, presents no problem for English speakers.  Pointing out that "non si può non citare" is NOT the doppia negazione that can confuse English speakers suggests the thread itself is confused.  Perhaps it's "off topic" with itself!   
BTW, I'm puzzled by the Italian responses suggesting the example I posted is a "peculiar style".  Because it is taken from what appears to be a linguistically serious Italian website:  Dizy - dizionario pratico con curiosità e informazioni utili (www.dizy.com). Would such a website post, as an example of Italian verb usage, a peculiar style?


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## Pietruzzo

ItosLemma said:


> I'm puzzled by the Italian responses suggesting the example I posted is a "peculiar style". Because it is taken from what appears to be a linguistically serious Italian website: Dizy - dizionario pratico con curiosità e informazioni utili (www.dizy.com). Would such a website post, as an example of Italian verb usage, a peculiar style


First of all "peculiar" is not synonymous to incorrect (at least according to my rather poor English). That said, I wouldn't recommend  imitating the sentence you have posted to a non-native speaker of Italian.
Of course it's up to you to decide whether to rely more on my humble opinion or the "linguistically serious Italian website" you have quoted.


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## Bookmom

Pietruzzo said:


> First of all "peculiar" is not synonymous to incorrect (at least according to my rather poor English). That said, I wouldn't recommend  imitating the sentence you have posted to a non-native speaker of Italian.
> Of course it's up to you to decide whether to rely more on my humble opinion or the "linguistically serious Italian website" you have quoted.


In reaction to your continued civility in the expression of your quite worthy humble opinion, I can't not cite Emeril Lagasse's signature wrap-up: BAM!


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## ItosLemma

Pietruzzo said:


> First of all "peculiar" is not synonymous to incorrect (at least according to my rather poor English). That said, I wouldn't recommend  imitating the sentence you have posted to a non-native speaker of Italian.
> Of course it's up to you to decide whether to rely more on my humble opinion or the "linguistically serious Italian website" you have quoted.


You're quite right that "peculiar" is not "incorrect". (As best I can judge from what you write, your English is very good!)  I don't want it to be up to me to decide.  As a new learner of Italian I must rely on "authoritative" sources, and native speakers.  At present I have no contact with native speakers, so websites are my only resource. I'm developing a (unique, IMHO) Italian verb conjugation/usage program (for my own use, though I might eventually make it public).  I do not want to include peculiar examples, however technically correct.  I take examples from Italian websites (including WordReference) that appear to be authoritative.  Not websites in general.  Those devoted to the language itself (including dictionaries).  They can certainly include peculiar examples, as long as they are labeled something like "not common, colloquial, archaic, dialect, regional, slang".  The website in question (dizy) does not so label the example in question.  If I find  a website with examples that real Italians find peculiar, that's  useful information.  I'll not use them in my program, and be careful with others from that site. 

Despite your obvious annoyance with my postings, I thank you for your very useful information.


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## Pietruzzo

ItosLemma said:


> Despite your obvious annoyance with my postings, I thank you for your very useful information.


You are very welcome.
Just to let you know, I'm used to ignoring things and people that annoy me, which I haven't done with your posts.


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