# Doch hatte sich das Bürgertum ... arrangiert (function "doch")



## sedmont

*I've translated "doch" in the below German sentence as "indeed", but I'm not good at translating "doch", so am hoping people can check this.  Thanks very much for any help.*

Die kapitalistische Wirtschaftsordnung hatte eine Klassengesellschaft hervorgebracht, in der die Masse der Lohnabhängigen einer kleinen Gruppe mächtiger Fabrikanten, Kaufleute und Bankiers gegenüberstand. *Doch* hatte sich das Bürgertum mit dem Herrschaftssytem des Kaiserreiches, in dem der Adel, die Offiziere und Großgrundbesitzer den Ton angaben, arrangiert und in einem "Kartell der staatserhaltenden und produktiven Stände" zusammengefunden.

The capitalistic economic order had produced a class society, in which the mass of wage earners stood opposite a small group of powerful manufacturers, businessmen, and bankers. *Indeed*, the middle class had come to terms with the empire’s system of rule, in which the nobles, the officers, and the big landowners set the tone. The middle class had joined in a ‘cartel of the state-supporting and productive classes.'

*If there is a simple way to know the correct translation of "doch" in this sentence, I'd be grateful to hear it. (Does the fact that doch begins the sentence limit how it can be translated?)  *


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## Gernot Back

I'd rather use _however, on the other hand _or _yet _in his context.


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## Frieder

I think I'd use _meanwhile_ in this case. _Doch_ doesn't make much sense in the original text, because normally it means _jedoch/hingegen_ denoting a contrast/difference, which cannot be found here.

(Gernot's _however_ is fine, too)


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## Schlabberlatz

A simple "but" would also work here, IMO:


> *doch* _Konj_
> 
> (aber) but
> doch - Wörterbuch Deutsch-Englisch - WordReference.com


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## anahiseri

For me, the *doch * clearly marks a contrast. Gonat has some good suggestions. I like *on the other hand* best.

And no, sedmont, I'm sorry, but I think you should already have realized that there are no simple ways with *doch, aber, wohl, ja, *and all these words you probably hate. I suppose they are the acid test to detect mother tongue speakers.


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## Kajjo

Gernot Back said:


> I'd rather use _however, on the other hand _or _yet _in his context.


I'd prefer "However, ..." in this instance. "On the other hand" is fine, too, but deviates more from the original, since this phrase could have been used in German, too. 



anahiseri said:


> no simple ways with *doch, aber, wohl, ja, *and all these words you probably hate. I suppose they are the acid test to detect mother tongue speakers.


I agree. German particles are very difficult to translate -- not only because of many nuances difficult to grasp for non-natives, but mainly because other languages like English simply don't have as many to translate to.


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## anahiseri

By the way, Sedmont, I hope you get a good pay for this translation. You deserve it. i have translated a book about physics from Spanish to English (which is not my mother tongue) and I can assure you it was much easier than the German fragments you have shown us.
(If you are curious about the book, have a look at my website
www.anahiseri.es


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## sedmont

Hi anahiseri
You are mistaken on one thing. I "don't hate" those words at all. I quite love those words. But they are mysteries to me that my German is currently insufficient to interpret.  As to whether I "should" know  there are no simple ways with the various particles, well, perhaps. But I'm still in many ways a novice with German, and sometimes the brilliant people here have taught me the most unexpected things.

I won't get paid anything for this translation, but thank you for the good wishes in that direction. I am going to check out your translation.


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## anahiseri

i admire you for your patience, sedmont And by the way, no doubt there are brilliant people around here, but don't think that somebody is brilliant just because he or she has a grip on modal particles. Somebody who is struggling with English might as well say that people who remember what preposition to use with each verb (listen to, wait for, agree with, look around) are brilliant.


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## sedmont

Kajjo said:


> German particles are very difficult to translate -- not only because of many nuances difficult to grasp for non-natives, but mainly because other languages like English simply don't have as many to translate to.



Thanks very much. What you and anahiseri say is as I suspected.  I was hoping I might be able to learn of some non-contextual elements of a word like doch, elements that, even without an intimate feeling for German, would at least eliminate some of the possible translations in some cases, and leave me with fewer possibilities to guess at. But I guess that was wishful thinking.


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## sedmont

anahiseri said:


> no doubt there are brilliant people around here, but don't think that somebody is brilliant just because he or she has a grip on modal particles.


Agreed. My reference to brilliance here concerned more than modal particles. And I also admire your patience.


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## Schlabberlatz

Kajjo said:


> German particles


Can "doch" really be called a particle here? In other words: can a conjunction be a particle? (Cf. my quotation in #4.)


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## anahiseri

I think (well, I know for sure) *doch *performs many functions, and you're right, here it is a conjunction. But not in
*komm doch mal her
der ist doch blöd
Doch, ich hab's gefunden*
usw. und so fort


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## Kajjo

canoonet - Terminologie Datenbank

Prinzipiell stimme ich dir zu, dass es Sinn ergibt, Adverb, Konjunktion und "echte" Partikel voneinander zu unterscheiden. Im Sprachgebrauch ist dies jedoch uneinheitlich, und ein Problem solcher Partikel ist ja gerade, dass man erst einmal erkennen und unterscheiden muss, in welcher Funktion sie gerade auftreten.

Hier ist "doch" natürlich eine Konjunktion.


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## elroy

sedmont said:


> But I guess that was wishful thinking.


 It wasn't!  Actually in that position, followed by a verb, "doch" _cannot_ mean "indeed."  It can only mean "but," "however," "on the other hand," etc.  

Sometimes you need a fellow non-native speaker to point out these things, as natives never had to learn any of this. 

I also agree with Schlabberlatz that "doch" is not a particle here.  While it's definitely true that modal particles are particularly tough to master, the situation tends to get exaggerated and misrepresented.  "Doch" is a chameleon; some of its uses are tricky while others (like this one) are straightforward.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> as natives never had to learn any of this.


That's true, it's just intuitive for us natives. I learned a lot about my native language by answering questions here.


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## anahiseri

elroy said:


> It wasn't!  Actually in that position, followed by a verb, "doch" _cannot_ mean "indeed."  It can only mean "but," "however," "on the other hand," etc.
> 
> Sometimes you need a fellow non-native speaker to point out these things, as natives never had to learn any of this.
> 
> I also agree with Schlabberlatz that "doch" is not a particle here.  While it's definitely true that modal particles are particularly tough to master, the situation tends to get exaggerated and misrepresented.  "Doch" is a chameleon; some of its uses are tricky while others (like this one) are straightforward.



That's a good attitude, selmont! You'll end up being an expert in German particles.

good night to you all (it's past midnight in Europe)


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## elroy

anahiseri said:


> That's a good attitude, selmont!


 Hast Du aus *s*_*e*d*mont*_ und _*el*roy_, *selmont* gebastelt? 

Danke jedenfalls, auch (wahrscheinlich) im Namen von sedmont.


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## sedmont

elroy said:


> ...in that position, followed by a verb, "doch" _cannot_ mean "indeed." It can only mean "but," "however," "on the other hand," etc.


That's useful. Thanks!  
When you say "in that position" do you mean first word in the sentence, followed immediately by a verb? Or just, followed immediately by a verb (regardless of where doch is in the sentence)?  


elroy said:


> Danke jedenfalls, auch (wahrscheinlich) im Namen von sedmont.


Certainly.


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## elroy

sedmont said:


> When you say "in that position" do you mean first word in the sentence, followed immediately by a verb? Or just, followed immediately by a verb (regardless of where doch is in the sentence)?


 Well, for it to be followed by the conjugated verb (which is what I meant), it has to occupy the first position, since the verb has to occupy the second position, so ... es läuft auf dasselbe hinaus.


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## anahiseri

elroy said:


> Well, for it to be followed by the conjugated verb (which is what I meant), it has to occupy the first position, since the verb has to occupy the second position, so ... es läuft auf dasselbe hinaus.


I have been thinking about this and you may be right. Very perceptive !


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## sedmont

elroy said:


> Well, for it to be followed by the conjugated verb (which is what I meant), it has to occupy the first position, since the verb has to occupy the second position, so ... es läuft auf dasselbe hinaus.


Many thanks! (If any other such easily grasped patterns should occur to you with respect to translating doch, and you have a chance at some point, I'd be grateful to hear about them.)


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## bearded

I like Frieder's _meanwhile. _Semantically, in the text there doesn't seem (to me)  to be such a contrast as 'however' or 'but' would express.


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## Kajjo

bearded said:


> I like Frieder's _meanwhile. _Semantically, in the text there doesn't seem (to me) to be such a contrast as 'however' or 'but' would express.


Hm, "meanwhile" has a different meaning, it introduces some sort of parallel actions. Nonetheless, it would sound nice in the English sentence. Close to the original is "doch" and a certain contrast is definitely given.

_Zugleich hatte sich das Bürgertum...
Meanwhile, the middle class... (at the same time)_

_Doch hatte sich das Bürgertum...
However, the middle class... (in contrast)
_
Please note that in german both words can be easily combined and this would even be very idiomatic:

_Zugleich hatte sich das Bürgertum jedoch...
However, at the same time the middle class had..._


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## sedmont

bearded said:


> I like Frieder's _meanwhile. _Semantically, in the text there doesn't seem (to me) to be such a contrast as 'however' or 'but' would express.


I like _meanwhile _too, for the same reason.


Kajjo said:


> _Zugleich hatte sich das Bürgertum...
> Meanwhile, the middle class... (at the same time)_
> 
> _Doch hatte sich das Bürgertum...
> However, the middle class... (in contrast)
> _
> Please note that in german both words can be easily combined and this would even be very idiomatic:
> 
> _Zugleich hatte sich das Bürgertum jedoch...
> However, at the same time the middle class had..._


Your suggestion of _However, at the same time... _might be the way to go.


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## Schlabberlatz

sedmont said:


> However, at the same time...


I think he would have used "indes", not "doch", if he had wanted to express "However, at the same time…" I don’t see any need for "second guessing" here. "doch" = "but" would do. Doch es ist deine Entscheidung


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## sedmont

Thank you very much, Schlabberlatz.


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