# 他们已经穿过马路去了



## L3P

大家好：

I know now that  if  two people are going to cross the road and one of them asks about somebody else: 他在哪儿呢？,then the answer 他穿过马路去了 would mean 'He is crossing the road', lit.'He has gone to cross the road'.
But in the following there`s a 已经. Does it change the meaning of the sentence into a past tense or does the sentence still mean the same 'He is already crossing the road'?


谢谢。


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## fyl

It is not a correct sentence.
他已经穿过马路了 He has crossed the road.
他过马路去了 (note that there is no 穿) He has gone to cross the road (he's crossing the road).
You can't have both 穿 and 去. And it is very awkward to use 已经 in 他过马路去了.


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## Mamanunique

他穿过马路去了=他已经穿过马路去了=he has already crossed the road and gone.


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## fyl

Sorry I was wrong. 他穿过马路去了 IS correct and has the meaning as Mamanunique mentioned.
But here the 去了 is quite different from 他做xxx去了 (he has gone to do sth). 穿过去 is something similar to 拿出来, 放进去, etc. Maybe 去 here is more like a 'result', e.g. 他吃完了 (not sure with the grammar). I was reading the sentence while thinking the 去了 in 他做xxx去了 and missed this meaning.


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## L3P

Thanks very much,fyl and Mamanunique!


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## Skatinginbc

A: 他在哪儿呢?  B: 他穿过马路走了.  他早就穿过马路走了.
A: 他在哪儿呢?  B: 他过马路去了.  沒瞧見他正要过马路吗?


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## L3P

Skatinginbc said:


> A: 他在哪儿呢?  B: 他过马路去了.  沒瞧見他正要过马路吗?



Thanks,Skatinginbc. Could you translate it for me,please?


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## Skatinginbc

A: Where is he?  B: He's gone to cross the road.  Don't you see he is about to cross the road?

My point in Post #6: I prefer 他穿过马路走了 (cf. 他翻牆走了, 他翻牆逃跑了, 他翻牆離去了 vs. 他翻牆去了, 他去翻牆了) over 他穿过马路去了.  The latter does not sound very natural to me.


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## fyl

I'm now a bit confused and I'm thinking Skatinginbc may be giving a third interpretation of "他穿过马路去了". For clarity, the 3 interpretations are:

1. The structure 他做xxx去了 (he's gone to do something), e.g. A: 他人呢，干什么去了？B: 他吃饭去了。
In this case, 他穿过马路去了 is clearly wrong. This is how I understood the question in #2, and is also the original interpretation in #1.
2. My understanding in #4. 去 is like an adverb (not very sure with the grammar). 穿过去 should be considered as a phrase. 穿过马路去 is like 拿出吃的来, 放进瓶里去.
3. Consider 去 as a verb. “他穿过马路，去了” means the same as “他穿过马路，走了”. 穿过 and 去 are two verbs in parallel. He has crossed the road and then gone.
This is probably Skatinginbc's interpretation (maybe I'm wrong).

The 2nd and 3rd interpretations are possible. But how good they are depends on the context and intonation. In general, both interpretations are a bit awkward.


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## Skatinginbc

Well, phrasal verbs such as 放进去 and 穿进去 are separable (e.g., 他穿进洞里去) because they can function as a transitive verb, but 跑过去 or 穿过去 is intransitive (他穿过去了) and thus inseparable (e.g., *他穿过洞里去).
他穿进洞里去 ==> Where is he now?  洞里!  他去洞里. 洞里 is the shared object of 穿进 and 去
*他穿过洞里去 ==> Where is he now???  Since he already 过了洞里, he is no longer in 洞里 (洞里 cannot be the destination of 去).  The extra 去 cannot be explained as part of the phrasal verb.


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> *他穿过洞里去 ==> Where is he now???  Since he already 过了洞里, he is no longer in 洞里.  The extra 去 cannot be explained as part of the phrasal verb.


Of course 穿过洞里 isn't correct, 穿过 and 里 are contradicting each other.
But 穿过隧道去 would sound correct to me. I agree that it is a bit awkward to insert an object, but I don't think it is intransitive. It should be OK in certain context.


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## Skatinginbc

Got it!  去 is a directional particle, indicating the direction of movement in relation to the speaker.
你穿过隧道去, 就會看到大海了
你穿过隧道来, 就會看到拿著手機的我了
你穿过马路去, 看他們會跟蹤你還是我.
我的媽咪唷, 他穿过马路去了, 這些人還在跟蹤我.  Here, 他穿过马路去了 does not necessarily mean "he has already crossed the road and _gone_" (see Mamanunique #3).  He might not be out of sight yet and therefore technically not "gone".  It simply indicates the direction, that is, away from the speaker.

The "gone" interpretation pertains to the co-verb analysis or Fyl's Interpretation 3 (see post #9).


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## Skatinginbc

I didn't explain clearly enough.  Let me try again:

There are two distinct functions of 去:
1. main verb meaning "to proceed" in a serial verb construction that refers to some specified intention or purpose (i.e., "go do something, go doing something, or go to do something"): 他吃饭去了, 爸爸捕魚去了, 阿嬤*造勢遊行*去了, 他-过马路-去-了 (transformed from 他-去-过马路-了).  他穿过马路去了 is NOT transformed from *他去穿过马路了 (which is ungrammatical) and thus can NOT mean 'He has gone to cross the road'.

2. directional particle indicating "away from the speaker": In this case, 去 is an add-on, not an essential element, of the verb phrase.  For instance, 去 is not obligatory in "他穿过马路(去)了" and "你穿过隧道(去), 就會看到大海了" .  It merely adds supplemental information regarding the direction of movement.  

Neither of the above would warrant the interpretation of "gone" (no longer be present).  Thus Mamanunique's interpretation (#3) "he has already crossed the road and _gone_", which fyl accepted its possibility (#4), led me to consider a compound structure (e.g., 爬上, 跑来, 逃走) wherein the first verb expresses a manner with which the action expressed by the second verb is carried out. "他穿过马路走了" ==> He's gone, by means of crossing the road.


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## Mamanunique

If I said他穿过马路去了or 他开进隧道里去了 I was telling you *how* he left .

If I said 他过马路去了or 爸爸捕鱼去了，I was telling you *why* he had left .

If I said 他穿过马路了， I was telling you the fact that he had crossed the road.(Maybe he was still there on the opposite side of the road.)


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## retrogradedwithwind

Oh skating and fyl, don't make a simple sentence so completed.

First let me explain 过 and 去了.

过(adverb)
吃过饭 have eaten a meal
做过作业 have done homework

去了
吃饭去了 went to eat a meal and maybe now is eating
做作业去了 went to do homework and maybe now is doing

However
过 is a verb too.
过马路，过河 etc. Cross a road, a river etc.



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穿 is a verb, means "pierce"
线穿过针眼 a thread pierce through a needle.(针眼怎么说？)

And "穿马路" or "穿过马路" is a set phrase. you may often hear "不要随意横穿马路"。


——————————————————
ok, now we have a sentence "穿过马路去了".

the key to understand the sentence is how to understand "穿过.

Is it a verb meaning the same as "穿" or a phrase meaning "穿+过"?


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## fyl

We didn't want to make it complicated, it's because there are at least 3 different ways to read 去了: 1. 吃饭去了(as you mentioned) 2. (穿过去)了 3. 穿过马路，然后，去了(meaning 走了).
Skatinginbc has also explained this well.


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## retrogradedwithwind

Sorry I didn't finish writing my explanation in my last input.

If 穿过＝穿＝过， then 他穿马路去了0means the same as 吃饭去了

If 穿过＝穿＋过， then 穿过马路去了is a wrong sentence.

——————————————_
If it's 穿过＋去，then there should not been a 了here.

If it is 穿过隧道，去了，then there must be a comma",".
他穿过马路，去了。
There must be a pause when you read it.

——————————————
All in all, it's the character 过 that confused the OP.

Delete it and all is clear.


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> If 穿过＝穿＝过...


穿 ≠ 過
我穿針穿了個老半天, 就是穿不過去 ==> 有"穿", 沒"過".
我只是在馬路中間穿梭, 又沒真的越過去 ==> 有"穿", 沒"過".


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## retrogradedwithwind

Skatinginbc said:


> 穿 ≠ 過
> 我穿針穿了個老半天, 就是穿不過去 ==> 有"穿", 沒"過".
> 我只是在馬路中間穿梭, 又沒真的越過去 ==> 有"穿", 沒"過".


但穿马路，过马路，穿过马路是一样的啊。


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## fyl

retrogradedwithwind said:


> If 穿过＝穿＝过， then 他穿马路去了0means the same as 吃饭去了
> If 穿过＝穿＋过， then this is a wrong sentence.


I think in all 3 interpretations, 穿过 is the same (穿+过), at least there is no much difference. So I don't quite understand how 过 will help distinguish the 3 cases.
I agree that the sentence is wrong in the first case.



retrogradedwithwind said:


> If it's 穿过＋去，then there should not been a 了here.


I'm not sure which interpretation this is supposed to be.
For my second interpretation (去 is a directional particle as pointed out by Skatinginbc), I think it is fine if there is a 了. In fact, 他已经穿过马路去了 needs a 了 to sound correct. It's like 我已经(从盆里)拿出螃蟹来了.
Let me try to give a context for this sentence: 蜗牛想要到马路对面去。A: 蜗牛还在过马路吗？B:还在。A: 蜗牛还在过马路吗？B:还在。A: 蜗牛还在过马路吗？B:还在。A: 蜗牛还在过马路吗？B:不了。A:那是被碾死了，还是已经穿过去了？B:它已经穿过马路去了。



retrogradedwithwind said:


> If it is 穿过隧道，去了，then there must be a comma",".
> 他穿过马路，去了。
> There must be a pause when you read it.


Well, I wouldn't say "must". If it was 他穿过马路走了, it would be acceptable for me to omit the comma.


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## retrogradedwithwind

fyl said:


> Well, I wouldn't say "must". If it was 他穿过马路走了, it would be acceptable for me to omit the comma.


At least the pause between 路 and 走 must be the longest when you read the sentence.


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## retrogradedwithwind

fyl said:


> I'm not sure which interpretation this is supposed to be.
> For my second interpretation (去 is a directional particle as pointed out by Skatinginbc), I think it is fine if there is a 了. In fact, 他已经穿过马路去了 needs a 了 to sound correct. It's like 我已经(从盆里)拿出螃蟹来了.
> Let me try to give a context for this sentence: 蜗牛想要到马路对面去。A: 蜗牛还在过马路吗？B:还在。A: 蜗牛还在过马路吗？B:还在。A: 蜗牛还在过马路吗？B:还在。A: 蜗牛还在过马路吗？B:不了。A:那是被碾死了，还是已经穿过去了？B:它已经穿过马路去了。



In your sentence adding 了 in the end is fine Because there is 已经.

Delete 已经 then:
——他被碾死了，还是穿过去了？
——穿过马路去了。
A little wired, right?

Ok change it to:
——同上。
——他穿过去了。
Acceptable.

——他是被碾死了，还是过去了？
——过去了。
Acceptable. 

So 穿过＝过 here.


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 但穿马路，过马路，穿过马路是一样的啊。


To me, they are different.
過河 (可坐渡輪, 或走跨河大橋) ≠ 穿河 (從河中穿, e.g., 穿河隧道)
過馬路 (可在十字路口走斑馬線, 重點是"過"的意圖目的或結果, 而非"過"的方法) ≠ 穿馬路 (從馬路中央穿, 重點是方法, e.g., 亂穿馬路)
Can 他穿过马路去了 mean "He has gone to cross the road" (他过马路去了, 他去过马路了)?  Well, 穿馬路 or 穿過馬路 describes the manner or method (方法) and thus gives me 突兀的感覺 when combined with 去 "go to do something" that emphasizes the intent or purpose (意圖目的).


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## retrogradedwithwind

The 过 in 穿过 sounds a lot more like the 过 in 吃过饭(have done) than the 过 in 过马路, which I think makes you 感觉突兀. So I suggested that deleting 过 is a way to make the sentence clear.

I agree with you about the difference between 穿and 过, but that difference is too trivial in this case.
They both means "cross the road" in the sentence.


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> I suggested that deleting 过 is a way to make the sentence clear.


Perhaps it is OK in some dialects, but 他穿马路去了 is not idiomatic to my ears.


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> Can 他穿过马路去了 mean "He has gone to cross the road" (他过马路去了, 他去过马路了)?  Well, 穿馬路 or 穿過馬路 describes the manner or method (方法) and thus gives me 突兀的感覺 when combined with 去 "go to do something" that emphasizes the intent or purpose (意圖目的).


To me, 穿过马路 means "have crossed the road", i.e. the action has finished. So 穿过马路去了 is self-contradicting and does not make sense.

穿马路 sounds weird to me too.



retrogradedwithwind said:


> So 穿过＝过 here.


In 过去了, I think the 过 (verb) is different from the 过 in 穿过.
I'm still don't quite understand how the question is related to 穿 or 过. To me, in all the 3 interpretations 穿过 means the same: have crossed. (And the first interpretation is wrong as I have mentioned. One correction is to change 穿过 to 过. Well, in the correction the 过 may be confusing. Is this what you wanted to point out?)


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## retrogradedwithwind

Skatinginbc said:


> Perhaps it is OK in some dialects, but 他穿马路去了 is not idiomatic to my ears.


他过马路去了  sounds OK to all I think.

乱穿马路，横穿马路 are idiomatic and 穿马路 is just acceptable.
I mean it's not so idiomatic to me too.


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## retrogradedwithwind

fyl said:


> In 过去了, I think the 过 (verb) is different from the 过 in 穿过.
> I'm still don't quite understand how the question is related to 穿 or 过. To me, in all the 3 interpretations 穿过 means the same: have crossed. (And the first interpretation is wrong as I have mentioned. One correction is to change 穿过 to 过. Well, in the correction the 过 may be confusing. Is this what you wanted to point out?)


Consider such phrases:
穿过黄河，穿过北京，穿过黄土高原，穿过北中国
I think those are what we all can accept. So is it the same with "穿过马路"？
Just cross the road not have crossed the road.


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## L3P

Thank you so much,everyone who contributed!

As is very often the case,besides the answers to the question asked,I get some additional info that`s extremely valuable. Hence two quick questions just to make sure I got it right:

1.I never realized it was possible to say 吃饭去了‘has gone to eat’ or 做作业去了‘has gone to do homework’. I thought the only way to convey the meanings was 去吃饭了 and 去做作业了.
Are the two constructions totally interchangeable? I.e., wherever I have smth like 他去看电影了,I can rephrase it into 他看电影去了?

2.When some people are crossing the street (they`re somewhere halfway over) and I`m still standing on the pavement and pointing at them,can I say 你看，几个人穿过去（呢） meaning ‘Look,some people are crossing the street’? or 你看，几个人穿过去了 ‘Look,some people have gone to cross the street’? On the other hand,same situation but the people are over on the other side of the street,can I say 你看，几个人（已经）穿过去了 meaning  ‘Look,some people have already crossed  the street’?


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## fyl

retrogradedwithwind said:


> Consider such phrases:
> 穿过黄河，穿过北京，穿过黄土高原，穿过北中国
> I think those are what we all can accept. So is it the same with "穿过马路"？
> Just cross the road not have crossed the road.


All 穿过 are the same. Maybe my translation "have crossed" is inaccurate. Can you give two sentences that both have 穿过 and 穿过 have different meanings in them? I think 穿过 always means the same.



L3P said:


> 1.I never realized it was possible to say 吃饭去了‘has gone to eat’ or 做作业去了‘has gone to do homework’. I thought the only way to convey the meanings was 去吃饭了 and 去做作业了.
> Are the two constructions totally interchangeable? I.e., wherever I have smth like 他去看电影了,I can rephrase it into 他看电影去了?


You can rephrase 他去看电影了 into 他看电影去了. As far as I can see the two constructions are basically interchangeable. I wouldn't say totally, because we can't enumerate all contexts in our mind.



L3P said:


> 2.When some people are crossing the street (they`re somewhere halfway over) and I`m still standing on the pavement and pointing at them,can I say 你看，几个人穿过去（呢） meaning ‘Look,some people are crossing the street’? or 你看，几个人穿过去了 ‘Look,some people have gone to cross the street’? On the other hand,same situation but the people are over on the other side of the street,can I say 你看，几个人（已经）穿过去了 meaning  ‘Look,some people have already crossed  the street’?


Not really.
There are two things you may need to notice. First, 穿过 and 过 (both are verbs) are not the same. 穿过 gives me a feeling of having finished the crossing, but I'm not able to explain this clearly. Second, there are 3 usages of 去(了): have gone to do, direction, and as a separate verb, as we have discussed.
你看，几个人穿过去（呢） meaning ‘Look,some people are crossing the street’: This is wrong. You may say 你看，有几个人正过马路呢. You can also say 你看，有几个人正在穿过马路. But be careful with the phrasing, don't use 去, and there may be some rhyme rules: 过 is more natural, and you can use 正/正在/呢 flexibly as you want. 穿过 is something feels unnatural, and I would prefer to avoid the colloquial 正/呢 when it is used. If you want to use 去, one possibility is 你看，有几个人正要穿过马路去呢, but that would mean some people are "wanting" to cross to the other side of the road.
你看，几个人穿过去了 ‘Look,some people have gone to cross the street’: This is also wrong. As we have discussed in several previous posts (#4, #9, #13, #23, #26), the first usage of 去 (have gone to do) can't be used with 穿过. To me this is self-contradicting. I would always understand this sentence as the below meaning.
你看，几个人（已经）穿过去了 meaning  ‘Look,some people have already crossed  the street’: This is correct.


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> Consider such phrases:
> 穿过黄河，穿过北京，穿过黄土高原，穿过北中国...is it the same with "穿过马路"？


如何過沙漠?  (1) 從中穿過, (2) 從旁繞過, (3) 從上飛過, (4) 從下鑽過...
過 indicates the objective or result (目的或結果), while 穿, 繞, 飛, or 鑽 describes the manner or method (方法).  As a compound (穿過, 繞過, 飛過, 鑽過), it answers the question "如何" (i.e., 方法).

如何使他上樓?  (1) 管家請他上樓, (2) 美女誘他上樓, (3) 家僕抬他上樓, (4) 惡棍趕他上樓...
上樓 indicates the objective or result, while 請, 誘, 抬, or 趕 describes the manner or method.

如何過馬路?  (1) 可走斑馬線, (2) 可走天橋, (3) 可走地下道, (4) 可橫穿而過 (i.e., 穿過). 穿 describes the manner or method, while 過 indicates the objective or result.

穿 "to cut through a space" vs. 過 "to traverse, to get across, to go from one side to the other" (You may pass across, over, or through, or even skirt around without actually cutting through the space).
穿过马路, 穿过黄河，穿过北京，穿过黄土高原，穿过北中国 ==> You cut through (穿) the space so as to go from one side to the other (過).

My answer: All 穿过s in the above examples are the same.


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## retrogradedwithwind

I am exhausted by talking about 穿过

I give up


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