# All dialects: pronunciation of qaf ق in proper names



## spiny_creature

!مرحبا

I've got a linguistic question I can't find an answer to anywhere, and watching videos with native speakers isn't helping... I know that in dialects which normally pronounce qaf as /g/ or hamza (ʔ), the /q/ pronunciation is retained for words and names of a classical register (e.g. القرآن‎‎, ثقافة).

But in everyday dialect pronunciation where /q/ is not the normal realization, which pronunciation of qaf is used for proper/personal names? E.g., would a guy named Ishaq have his name pronounced with a /q/ or /g/ in Jordan, /q/ or hamza in Lebanon?

Any insight welcome, thanks!


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## apricots

It depends on the name and region. For example, it's Taare2, Ya32uub, and Rafii2 in PA but Qays retains the q.


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## barkoosh

It's pronounced as hamza in Lebanon.


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## jack_1313

In Jordan, it varies from name to name. For example, طارق is Taareg, but لقاء is Liqaa' and قيس is Qays.


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## Hemza

spiny_creature said:


> !مرحبا
> I know that in dialects which normally pronounce qaf as /g/ or hamza (ʔ), the /q/ pronunciation is retained for words and names of a classical register (e.g. القرآن‎‎, ثقافة).



Hello,

In bedouin dialects of Morocco (and Mauritania and probably the rest of the bedouin parts of the Maghreb too), the word القرآن‎‎ is said "gur2aan" and in some places, it even became "gur3aan" . As for names, it depends, you may find both "q" and "g" sound and in some places, "2a" but this latter became rare and only found in old urban people speeches of few parts of Morocco and Algeria.


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## cherine

apricots said:


> It depends on the name and region. For example, it's Taare2, Ya32uub, and Rafii2 in PA but Qays retains the q.


Same in Egypt. And I'm afraid I don't have an explanation for this.


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## Foxglove5

I just found this discussion and am reminded of something I found puzzling about Lebanese names with ق, that  are pronounced as ء but transliterated as “k.” Why not leave the “q” to let local dialect preference determine the pronunciation? Why substitute the usually unambiguous “k” but then not pronounce it?

Why is the pop singer جو اشقر spelled “Ashkar” but pronounced “Ash’ar”? Why is سلوى قطريب written Selwa Katrib but pronounced as starting with ء? Or the politician نجيب ميقاتي written “Mikati” but pronounced “Mi’ati”?

At this point, if I haven’t actually heard a name that includes a ق spoken, I feel hesitant about attempting it myself. What does one do with احمد قبور (Ahmad Kabbour) and قصي خولي (Kosai Khouli)?


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## Hemza

Foxglove5 said:


> I just found this discussion and am reminded of something I found puzzling about Lebanese names with ق, that  are pronounced as ء but transliterated as “k.” Why not leave the “q” to let local dialect preference determine the pronunciation? Why substitute the usually unambiguous “k” but then not pronounce it?


I'm not sure but I suppose this may have to do with French transliteration system. Lebanon was a under French rule for sometimes so I suppose they kept this system which doesn't distinguish between ق and ك (at least not as in English. For instance, العراق is written "Iraq" in English but "Irak" in French while قطر is Qatar oddly...). The same issue exists in Mauritania, Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia where many names with ق are transcripted with k thus making (in Latin transcription) no difference with ك names.

(I'm talking about the ق>k issue, if I didn't reply to your point by misunderstanding it, I apologise).


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## elroy

barkoosh said:


> It's pronounced as hamza in Lebanon.


 And in Palestine. 


spiny_creature said:


> the /q/ pronunciation is retained for words and names of a classical register (e.g. القرآن‎‎, ثقافة).


 This is not consistent across dialects. (Also, I would say “_some/most_ words of a _higher_ register and _terms from certain fields_; there’s nothing “classical” about either of your two examples.)

I say “θaqāfe” but some speakers of other dialects do have a glottal stop in this word.  As for القرآن, I’ve personally never heard it without “q,” but it’s not out of the question.  In Lebanese even موسيقى, a borrowing, is “musīʾa,” so القرآن may have a glottal stop too.  I’m actually curious now.  @barkoosh, @wriight, can you enlighten us?


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## Schem

"Grān" used to be the traditional pronunciation for القرآن in my dialect but it's rarely if ever heard nowadays. The trend has been moving towards using qaf in such words although it isn't consistent and you find examples where both qaf/gef are used with different meanings (ta3līq "comment" vs ta3līg "hanging").



Foxglove5 said:


> Why is the pop singer جو اشقر spelled “Ashkar” but pronounced “Ash’ar”? Why is سلوى قطريب written Selwa Katrib but pronounced as starting with ء? Or the politician نجيب ميقاتي written “Mikati” but pronounced “Mi’ati”?



This is unfortunately a common practice in most Arabic-speaking places. Transliteration follows standard or written Arabic as opposed to local pronunciation.

It's why sometimes you get Egyptian جمال or جميلة who would write their names as Jamal/Jamilah despite it not reflecting the pronunciation of the name itself.


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## Ali Smith

I used to think that the rule was that you transliterate ق with _q_ and ك with _k_, but then I came across Arabs who spelled their names _Tarek_ and _Kassem_. Actually, I don't think Arabs ever follow the aforementioned rule, so it can hardly be called a rule. It's just a Western academic convention.


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## Hemza

Schem said:


> This is unfortunately a common practice in most Arabic-speaking places. Transliteration follows standard or written Arabic as opposed to local pronunciation.
> It's why sometimes you get Egyptian جمال or جميلة who would write their names as Jamal/Jamilah despite it not reflecting the pronunciation of the name itself.


Which pronunciation would you keep when numerous exist across one country? The "mainstream" one? From where the person hail? Not that I'm against that but I think in both cases, it has its flaws.



Ali Smith said:


> I used to think that the rule was that you transliterate ق with _q_ and ك with _k_, but then I came across Arabs who spelled their names _Tarek_ and _Kassem_. Actually, I don't think Arabs ever follow the aforementioned rule, so it can hardly be called a rule. It's just a Western academic convention.


Not really "Western" but rather French. I can't talk for English influenced countries but in the French influenced ones, it's clearly not followed. The transliteration system seems muuuch more regular and consistant in English than it is in French (I'm talking about administrations, not academic way).


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## elroy

Ali Smith said:


> I came across Arabs who spelled their names _Tarek_ and _Kassem_.


 My last name has a ق, and I spell it with a "k" in English (many Arabic speakers, including native speakers, who see my name written in English think it's a ك in Arabic!). 


Ali Smith said:


> I don't think Arabs ever follow the aforementioned rule


 Not never.  Some people do use "q" for ق.


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## Schem

Hemza said:


> Which pronunciation would you keep when numerous exist across one country? The "mainstream" one? From where the person hail? Not that I'm against that but I think in both cases, it has its flaws.



Assuming I don't personally know the individual (when I would transcribe their name exactly as they pronounce it), I would indeed rely on the pronunciation conventions of their place of origin. So it would be Tareg for a Saudi طارق and Gamal for an Egyptian or Yemeni جمال.

The main idea is that there's no agreed upon standard so I prefer transcribing names as they sound as opposed to following written Arabic or Western transliteration methods.


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## wriight

elroy said:


> Lebanese even موسيقى, a borrowing, is “musīʾa,” so القرآن may have a glottal stop too. I’m actually curious now. @barkoosh, @wriight, can you enlighten us?


A native-y pronunciation of قرآن would sound like 2rān, parallelling Schem's Grān, but I'm betting that isn't a thing (no idea if it's ever been ). I also feel like 2or2ān is too-glaringly 3ammiyyified to occur commonly, and even though that's just an ad-hoc personal judgment, a few attempts at searching for something like it online turned up nothing.

What does happen in metro accents is that Fus7a /q/ gets unwittingly merged into /k/ ("2ektiṣād" and stuff), though, so you can get people saying kor2ān without hearing the difference between their pronunciation and one with an actual [q].


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## WadiH

wriight said:


> A native-y pronunciation of قرآن would sound like 2rān, parallelling Schem's Grān, but I'm betting that isn't a thing (no idea if it's ever been ). I also feel like 2or2ān is too-glaringly 3ammiyyified to occur, and even though that's just an ad-hoc personal judgment, a few attempts at searching for something like it online turned up nothing.



I don't think it's correct to compare these two sets of dialects.  The q=2 developed directly from q=q and it is a relatively recent development.  The older phonology still exists in the surrounding rural areas and in neighboring regions like northern Mesopotamia so you can argue that the 'quran' is just a retention of a more traditional form where the 2 is not preferred because it sounds awkward or too colloquial or innovative as you said.  The q=G change in bedouin-type dialects is much older, and in the interior of the Peninsula people may never even hear a 'q' sound most of their lives, while in the Syria-Iraqi region all variants co-exist and are familiar.


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## Foxglove5

Hemza said:


> I'm not sure but I suppose this may have to do with French transliteration system. Lebanon was a under French rule for sometimes so I suppose they kept this system which doesn't distinguish between ق and ك (at least not as in English. For instance, العراق is written "Iraq" in English but "Irak" in French while قطر is Qatar oddly...). The same issue exists in Mauritania, Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia where many names with ق are transcripted with k thus making (in Latin transcription) no difference with ك names.
> 
> (I'm talking about the ق>k issue, if I didn't reply to your point by misunderstanding it, I apologise).


I just wanted to clarify in my own post that I was not criticizing Lebanese speakers for their “illogical” spelling, but rather kicking myself for being so slow to figure out the system. I absolutely adore the sound of Lebanese Arabic and only wish I were more proficient in it!


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