# None of ...  [singular/plural verb]



## Sheikhbutt

Hello,
Which of the following sentences are considered correct?
1.
(A)None of them is correct.
(B)None of them are correct.
2.
(A)None of this matter.
(B)None of this matters.
3.
(A)None of you know.
(B)None of you knows.
5.
(A) None of you are aware of the fact.
(B) None of you is aware of the fact.
6.
(A) None of the remotes work.
(B) None of the remote works.
7.
(A)None of us know.
(B) None of us knows.


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## tunaafi

What do you think?


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## Sheikhbutt

tunaafi said:


> What do you think?


All of them are correct.


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## lingobingo

When used with uncountable nouns (which are always singular), *none* means *not any* of *it* and always takes a singular verb:

None of their behaviour is natural / None of his reasoning is correct​
When used with plural nouns, *none* takes either a singular or a plural verb, depending on the context. And often both versions are possible.

None of these books *is* what (= the one) I’m looking for ​None of these books *are* what (= the ones) I’m looking for ​​None of these shows *is* suitable for children  (not _even_ one of them is suitable)​None of these shows *are* suitable for children  (they are _all_ unsuitable)​​None of you is needed  / None of you are needed ​None of the people has arrived yet  / None of the people have arrived yet ​


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## Roymalika

lingobingo said:


> When used with uncountable nouns (which are always singular), *none* means *not any* of *it* and always takes a singular verb:
> 
> None of their behaviour is natural / None of his reasoning is correct​
> When used with plural nouns, *none* takes either a singular or a plural verb, depending on the context. And often both versions are possible.
> 
> None of these books *is* what (= the one) I’m looking for ​None of these books *are* what (= the ones) I’m looking for ​​None of these shows *is* suitable for children  (not _even_ one of them is suitable)​None of these shows *are* suitable for children  (they are _all_ unsuitable)​​None of you is needed  / None of you are needed ​None of the people has arrived yet  / None of the people have arrived yet ​


Hi Lingobingo,

Today, my classmate, John, and I planned to play a friendly match with the students of Class A2 tomorrow.
There are twenty students in our class, including John and me. We both talked to our other classmates about this and asked whether they are willing to play the match. Sadly, none of the classmates *was/were *ready. They said that they will play the match after one week, not tomorrow.

Can you please let me know which one is correct here, was or were?


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## lingobingo

Both are “correct”. But *are* or *were* (plural) is how it would usually be said.

If you want to analyse it, I suppose it depends on whether your focus is on negating the action or negating the subject.

• they are all *not ready* / all of them are *unwilling*
• none / *no* [single] *one* of those people is ready


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## lingobingo

I just did!

But if that doesn’t help you understand, then just disregard it. It’s a matter of which way you look at it – that’s all.


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## Roymalika

lingobingo said:


> If you want to analyse it, I suppose it depends on whether your focus is on negating the action or negating the subject.


None of the boys *was* not ready -> focus is on negating the subject "none".
None of the boys *were* not ready -> focus is on negating the action "ready".

Do you mean this?


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## lingobingo

What? Both of those are wrong. You’ve introduced a double negative.


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## Roymalika

lingobingo said:


> What? Both of those are wrong. You’ve introduced a double negative.


Sorry, I made a mistake by putting "not" before "ready". 

Now, please look at it again.

None of the boys *was* ready -> focus is on negating the subject "none".
None of the boys *were* ready -> focus is on negating the action "ready".


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## lingobingo

Forget that point. In general, this is how it works:

With uncountable nouns, where you mean no amount of _something_ (answering how much?):
None [of it] is / Not any of it is​
With countable nouns, where you mean not a single one out of _a number of individual things or people_ (answering how many?):
None [of them] is / Not [even] one of them is​None [of them] are / Not any of them are = All of them are not​


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## Roymalika

lingobingo said:


> With countable nouns, where you mean not a single one out of _a number of individual things or people_ (answering how many?):
> None [of them] is / Not [even] one of them isNone [of them] are / Not any of them are = All of them are not


In short, you mean to say that either "None of the classmates *was* ready" or "None of the classmates *were* ready" can be used with no difference in meaning?


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## abluter

As "none" is simply a shortening of "not one", it can therefore only rightly be applied to countable things.
So "none of this matters" is, strictly, wrong ; it has, however, become idiomatically accepted.


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## Roymalika

lingobingo said:


> Forget that point. In general, this is how it works:
> 
> With uncountable nouns, where you mean no amount of _something_ (answering how much?):
> None [of it] is / Not any of it is​
> With countable nouns, where you mean not a single one out of _a number of individual things or people_ (answering how many?):
> None [of them] is / Not [even] one of them is​None [of them] are / Not any of them are = All of them are not​


None of the boys *was* ready.
None of the boys *were* ready.

I've heard that "was" is preferably used in formal styles. "Were" is used in informal speaking.

Is that right?


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## heypresto

I don't think either is more or less formal than the other.


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> I don't think either is more or less formal than the other.


But the Cambridge Dictionary says the same as I've heard. Is the Dictionary wrong? 



> In formal styles, we use _none of_ with a singular verb when it is the subject. However, in informal speaking, people often use plural verbs:
> 
> _None of that surprises me.
> Indeed, none of his novels is well shaped or well written.
> None of the products have been tested on animals and all the bottles are recyclable. (informal)_


No, none and none of


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## abluter

My opinion, which is probably old-fashioned and pedantic, is that it's not a question of formality or informality, it's simply that "none of them were" is wrong, and "none of them was" is right.


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## heypresto

Well, I hadn't heard it, or read the dictionary. I agree with lingobingo's analysis in her post #11.

If you prefer to go with what you heard next time you need to use 'none', you won't be wrong.


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## Loob

I agree with heypresto and lingo.  For me, the idea that _none_ should always take a singular verb is rather like the view that you should never end a sentence with a preposition: something "taught" rather than natural, and disregarded by most.


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## abluter

I am not trying to persuade anyone to go against their personal preference, but I am anxious to explain that "none of them were there" sounds to me as utterly wrong as "one of them were there", and for exactly the same reason. In my case it's got nothing to do with what I might or might not have been taught.


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## Roymalika

Loob said:


> I agree with heypresto and lingo. For me, the idea that _none_ should always take a singular verb is rather like the view that you should never end a sentence with a preposition: something "taught" rather than natural, and disregarded by most.


Is the use of singular verb old-fashioned and the use of plural verb common in modern English?


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## Loob

Roymalika said:


> Is the use of singular verb old-fashioned


No, and it's essential in the context of uncountable nouns: _None of the behaviour was ..._


Roymalika said:


> the use of plural verb is common in modern English?


Yes, I'd say so.


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## Roymalika

Loob said:


> No, and it's essential in the context of uncountable nouns: _None of the behaviour was ..._
> 
> Yes, I'd say so.


Thank you very much
One more question please, What would you say about what Cambridge Dictionary says? It says that the use of singular verb in case of countable nouns is common in formal styles, while the use of plural verb in case of countable nouns is common in informal speaking.


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## abluter

I suspect that what the Cambridge Dictionary says is in fact the result of the action of a sort of* grammatical conscience*, which says "We'd better get it right for formal occasions, even if we allow ourselves to slob out in informal ones".  
Incidentally, I was in dire peril of being hoisted with my own petard in my post #20, where I should, of course, have written "I am not trying to persuade any to go against their etc", and not, as I did write, "anyone".


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## lingobingo

abluter said:


> Incidentally, I was in dire peril of being hoisted with my own petard in my post #20, where I should, of course, have written "I am not trying to persuade any to go against their etc", and not, as I did write, "anyone".




Why? Anyone is singular. So is their, these days.


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## Roymalika

abluter said:


> I suspect that what the Cambridge Dictionary says is in fact the result of the action of a sort of* grammatical conscience*, which says "We'd better get it right for formal occasions, even if we allow ourselves to slob out in informal ones".


Sorry, I don't understand the point. What do you mean, please?


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## abluter

The Cambridge Dictionary seems to be using a double standard, recommending the old-fashioned and strictly correct "none is" for "formal" contexts, and the more relaxed and popular "none are" for informal contexts.  I am suggesting that the reason for this double standard is that the compilers of the dictionary think that they had better be extra-correct for formal occasions.


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## Roymalika

Loob said:


> Yes, I'd say so.


In case of countable nouns, is the use of the plural verb also more natural than the use of singular verb?


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## Loob

Most of the thread has been addressing that question, Roymalika.


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## Roymalika

Loob said:


> Most of the thread has been addressing that question, Roymalika.


I'm sorry, I don't think anyone has talked about the plural verb being more natural. What has been talked about is that it is more commonly used.


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## abluter

In this context, I think we can say that "natural" and "commonly used" signify pretty much the same thing.


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## Roymalika

Loob said:


> I agree with heypresto and lingo.  For me, the idea that _none_ should always take a singular verb is rather like the view that you should never end a sentence with a preposition: something "taught" rather than natural, and disregarded by most.


Hi Loob,

None of the boys was ready.
None of the boys were ready.

I've heard that the use of the singular verb is formal, while the use of the plural verb is informal. 
Would you please let me know whether that's right?
..


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## Luca Tufo

Roymalika said:


> Hi Loob,
> 
> None of the boys was ready.
> None of the boys were ready.
> 
> I've heard that the use of the singular verb is formal, while the use of the plural verb is informal.
> Would you please let me know whether that's right?
> ..


I don't know why you're keeping this heated discussion alive but what Lingo said is more than right:

[
Forget that point. In general, this is how it works:

With uncountable nouns, where you mean no amount of _something_ (answering how much?):
None [of it] is / Not any of it is

With countable nouns, where you mean not a single one out of _a number of individual things or people_ (answering how many?):
None [of them] is / Not [even] one of them is
None [of them] are / Not any of them are = All of them are not
]

My American teacher would always say: "*with none of + plural noun always use a plural verb*", but seeing that more than two people have said none of these books is fine, then both are acceptable, period.


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## heypresto

I don't think it's anything to do with degrees of formality, it's just that the plural verb for many of us sounds more natural.

But as I said above, if you choose to us the singular verb, you won't be wrong.


Cross-posted.


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## Luca Tufo

heypresto said:


> I don't think it's anything to do with degrees of formality, it's just that the plural verb for many of us sounds more natural.
> 
> As I said above, if you choose to us the singular verb, you won't be wrong.


as strange as it might sound, some books like mine (Advanced English by Cambridge) claim that the usage of a singular verb in some contexts is preferred over a plural one.


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## heypresto

Yeah, it may well be, _in_ _some contexts_.


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> I don't think it's anything to do with degrees of formality


What do you mean by this please? Do you mean native speakers use either a singular verb or a plural verb in both formal and informal writing? If you don't mean this, then what verb native speakers use in formal writing and what verb in informal writing?


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## lingobingo

If you really still don’t get it, you might like to check out this article on the subject: 'None Is' or 'None Are'? (which makes no reference at all to formality/informality).


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## Roymalika

lingobingo said:


> If you really still don’t get it, you might like to check out this article on the subject: 'None Is' or 'None Are'? (which makes no reference at all to formality/informality).


Hi lingo, I've read the whole article, but there's two questions that I've in mind:

For example,
1) If you're writing an essay in a competition exam for civil services, or you're writing a thesis, or you're writing a journal, what would you use? Singular verb or plural verb or either of these?
[Here, I am talking about academic writing]

2) If you're talking to your friend via a text message on Facebook, what would you use? Singular verb or plural verb or either of these?
[Here, I am talking about informal writing]


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## lingobingo

To answer that would be to agree with your premise that they can be divided strictly into formal and informal, whereas in practice the choice is governed mainly by the nuance of the context (which I tried to demonstrate in #4).


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## Roymalika

lingobingo said:


> None of you is needed





lingobingo said:


> None of the people has arrived yet


Hi lingo, could you please explain what's wrong with these two?


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## lingobingo

Please stop asking for explanations of why things are wrong (expecting us to prove a negative). It’s unreasonable.


lingobingo said:


> None of you is needed  / None of you are needed
> None of the people has arrived yet  / None of the people have arrived yet


In the first example, it’s a plural *you*, not a singular one: *None of you lot* (= you people) are needed. So in both cases, the context is a group of people, not a single person. Hence the plural verb to convey that.

Try a little lateral thinking. What is the logical subject? Just the word *none* (not one)? Or the concept of *not any *(no number)* of a group*?


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## antonovich

lingobingo said:


> Please stop asking for explanations of why things are wrong (expecting us to prove a negative). It’s unreasonable.


It's also probably the best way for a non-native speaker to remember when they are busy trying to not make lots of mistakes. Having a set of heuristics is great, at least before the learner has developed the gut feeling that comes with thousands of hours of language exposure (and here we are talking about maturity that typically only comes with exposure to prose).

Several of these examples are not "definitely wrong". These are typical examples of what highly educated people would often not write but would very likely produce from time to time in normal speech. And plenty of people would probably write them too.

These are exactly the type of example that get hotly debated between rival professors when someone introduces a new theory of syntax. One of them needs for it to be ungrammatical for their (sic, this is fine now too!) new theory but a significant number of native speakers in the audience think it's fine. I've sat in on far too many of those for my liking...


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## Elle Paris

Sheikhbutt said:


> Hello,
> Which of the following sentences are considered correct?
> 1.
> (A)None of them is correct.
> (B)None of them are correct.
> 2.
> (A)None of this matter.
> (B)None of this matters.
> 3.
> (A)None of you know.
> (B)None of you knows.
> 5.
> (A) None of you are aware of the fact.
> (B) None of you is aware of the fact.
> 6.
> (A) None of the remotes work.
> (B) None of the remote works.
> 7.
> (A)None of us know.
> (B) None of us knows.


None = Not one (so not plural, so 3rd person singular, so A, B, B, B, B, B.)


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## Forero

"No one" is always singular, and "anyone" is always singular, but "none" is sometimes plural.

"None" ends in "one", but it does not mean "not one" or "no one". It means "not any".

I can't imagine "none of the people" as singular. It has to be plural.

But "None of us knows" is a perfectly good sentence.


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## Elle Paris

I was taught that ''not one=none'' and that it use to be n'one.  None of the people = not one of the people went into the room. Not one of the people took anything so none of the people has anything stolen and none/not one of them is guilty.


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## Elle Paris

lingobingo said:


> Please stop asking for explanations of why things are wrong (expecting us to prove a negative). It’s unreasonable.
> 
> In the first example, it’s a plural *you*, not a singular one: *None of you lot* (= you people) are needed. So in both cases, the context is a group of people, not a single person. Hence the plural verb to convey that.
> 
> Try a little lateral thinking. What is the logical subject? Just the word *none* (not one)? Or the concept of *not any *(no number)* of a group*?


no one is needed = none is needed= none of you is needed= not one of you is needed= not any one of you is needed= not a single one of you (or them) is needed :-D


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## Elle Paris

Roymalika said:


> Hi Loob,
> 
> None of the boys was ready.
> None of the boys were ready.
> 
> I've heard that the use of the singular verb is formal, while the use of the plural verb is informal.
> Would you please let me know whether that's right?
> ..


"None of the boys was ready." means "Not one single one (of the boys) was ready, Not one was out of bed, let alone ready! None was even awake; all were asleep.


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## DonnyB

Members have done their best to answer the question which was originally asked.  However it has become apparent that the discussion is now going round in circles somewhat and is unlikely to reach a definitive conclusion on which is everyone is agreed.  I'm therefore now closing the thread: Thanks to those members who have taken part.  DonnyB - moderator.


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