# Does 1337 count as a language?



## I Am Herenow

I was wondering, how many of you would consider 1337 (or "leet") a language? I mean the "z0/\/\G J00=g07 h4xx0r3|)" stuff that people use in online games that is, at times, nigh on impossible to understand. I mean, it does have some rules and stuff, so is it a language?


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## Flaminius

I have never heard of this "language" but it seems to be a jocular attempt at imitating alphabets, using other characters.  A language is more than a set of characters.


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## Pando

Hmm, I haven't really thought about it, but I guess I do consider it a language or maybe a dialect since almost all words have their base in the English language, but perhaps it's not something to put on your CV.  What it actually is is internet slang, but who knows what it will evolve to in time. Most likely the more traditional languages will accept 1337 sayings with time, since many sayings have evolved from the computer screens to regular slang already.


Flaminius said:


> I have never heard of this "language" but it seems to be a jocular attempt at imitating alphabets, using other characters. A language is more than a set of characters.


Although imitating alphabets is a significant part of it, there is a lot more to it. You won't find many of the words in the dictionary even if only letters were used, z0/\/\G J00=g07 h4xx0r3|) => _Zomg joo got haxxored_. (= _Oh my god (sarcastic), your computer has been hacked._)


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## I Am Herenow

Pando, I'm impressed 

Anyway, I'm more interested in whether it should count as a language, not whether I should put it on my CV  - besides, I'm not actually that good  (b17 0f 4 |\|uB)

But there are various grammatical rules that leet has (if you can call it grammar) - e.g. adding x0r/z0r etc. for "-er" (e.g. "hack*er*" - "h4*x0r*"), some common letter swaps (e-->3; s-->5; n-->|\|; f<-->ph etc.) and so on, so I don't know, it might count.


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## Whodunit

That's not a language, that's simply a code. I used to use this kind of code with my calculator. The letters from A to D, and X, Y, and M are inherently on it. The 1 stands for I, whereas .1 can be J and 1. L ... and so on.

It's just some kind of joke.


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## Pando

Whodunit said:


> It's just some kind of joke.


A joke or not, don't you think "words" like _lol_, _omg_, _wtf_, _noob_, _own/owned/ownage, teh, woot, rofl _etc. are here to stay? They are already used in real life as well and I think most people here are familiar with at least a few of the examples I posted. Languages keep on evolving and it will be interesting to see what will happen to the slang that arguably evolves the fastest of them all.

edit: For people unfamiliar with the subject or just interested to learn more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet


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## I Am Herenow

I think 1337 was invented to bypass filters and stop people from knowing what you're talking about - so it is a code in that sense - rather than as a joke.


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## mcibor

I don't think it's a language on it's own.
btw, dnfd, rotfl is English although only abbreviations (or abbvs if you like)
it's like emoticons it's a code or sign, but I still wouldn't call it a language.


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## übermönch

If Hindi and Urdu are different languages, so is L33tsp33k and the-language-it-is-used-to-write.


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## I Am Herenow

mcibor said:


> I don't think it's a language on it's own.
> btw, dnfd, rotfl is English although only abbreviations (or abbvs if you like)
> it's like emoticons it's a code or sign, but I still wouldn't call it a language.


 
What does "dnfd" mean? (Gah, one I don't know! :O)



übermönch said:


> If Hindi and Urdu are different languages, so is L33tsp33k and the-language-it-is-used-to-write.


 
Are Hindi and Urdu the same or something (you'll have to forgive my ignorance)?


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## modus.irrealis

I also think it's ultimately a code more than anything else, or maybe you can say an alternate spelling convention for representing English, but it's still English. (Although I guess there could be 1337 version of other languages -- are there?)

Some of it just seems like extreme versions of what we do with "normal" English -- the different spellings are kind of similar to color vs. colour differences and I guess they let you identify yourself as a member of a certain group. I don't know how serious people are when they pronounce words the way they're spelt in 1337, but there are words like radar which aren't that different. That's my impression.


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## Pando

mcibor said:


> btw, dnfd, rotfl is English although only abbreviations (or abbvs if you like)


Many of those abbreviations have turned to words of their own, like _ROFL_ - _roffle_.

edit:


modus.irrealis said:


> I also think it's ultimately a code more than anything else, or maybe you can say an alternate spelling convention for representing English, but it's still English. (Although I guess there could be 1337 version of other languages -- are there?)


There is 1337 in many languages, the one's that I have encountered are usually based on the "English version" but with several unique words. 1337 also takes influences from other languages, for instance the use of the German word _über_ as a superlative is common.


modus.irrealis said:


> Some of it just seems like extreme versions of what we do with "normal" English -- the different spellings are kind of similar to color vs. colour differences and I guess they let you identify yourself as a member of a certain group. I don't know how serious people are when they pronounce words the way they're spelt in 1337, but there are words like radar which aren't that different. That's my impression.


I think the difference now between English and 1337 is far bigger than lets say between Swedish and Norwegian and the gap keeps growing, very rapidly.


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## I Am Herenow

Pando, about 1337 in other languages: so is there an actual French, Spanish etc. 1337 now (on foreign CS servers, say)?

Have you _ever_ actually seen anyone say "b0|\|j0oR" / "(1a0" / "|-|01/-\" etc.?


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## Billopoulos

As long as every character doesn't represent something at its own, this can't be called a language!


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## I Am Herenow

OK, fair enough, so what do you guys think 1337 is then?

A code? A font? Pray tell!


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## Whodunit

I Am Herenow said:


> OK, fair enough, so what do you guys think 1337 is then?
> 
> A code? A font? Pray tell!


 
It's a code. Or would you really write it in your CV? Is it helpful to be able to _speak_ the language? What else should it be? A language needs at least two or three of these features: syntax, conjugation/declension patterns, lexical categories. By the way, is leetspeak an agglutinative, analytic, or fusional language? 

Some children like to invent their own language based on their mother tongue. They (aI was one of them ) simply sketch a new alphabet that represent the Latin letters (e.g.  for A etc.). This is a code - just like your leetspeak.


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## Pando

I Am Herenow said:


> Pando, about 1337 in other languages: so is there an actual French, Spanish etc. 1337 now (on foreign CS servers, say)?
> 
> Have you _ever_ actually seen anyone say "b0|\|j0oR" / "(1a0" / "|-|01/-\" etc.?


I don't play computer games so I wouldn't know, but I've encountered what you could call 1337 in Finnish and Swedish I would be surprised if the bigger languages didn't have own versions as well. I do suspect that these versions would be largely based on the English counterparts though. I could be wrong, especially considering the huge gaming communities in East Asia, but I think the "English 1337" is the most "developed".


Billopoulos said:


> As long as every character doesn't represent something at its own, this can't be called a language!


I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you are trying to say... do you care to explain?


Whodunit said:


> It's a code. Or would you really write it in your CV? Is it helpful to be able to _speak_ the language? What else should it be? A language needs at least two or three of these features: syntax, conjugation/declension patterns, lexical categories.


I think it has parts of them all, and I think they will be developed more in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if there was half-serious 1337-speak sites, grammar and dictionaries within the next ten years.


Whodunit said:


> By the way, is leetspeak an agglutinative, analytic, or fusional language?


Agglutinative- maybe with a cup of analytic- and a table spoon of constructed language? 


Whodunit said:


> [/FONT] for A etc.). This is a code - just like your leetspeak.


Although it has many similarities with various types of coding, I think we should consider that the world isn't the same as it was 20 years ago, does every language have to be spoken etc? I don't see 1337 being generally accepted as a language anytime soon, no matter how many language qualification parameters it passes. I only base this on a personal assumption, but I guess that most people who use 1337 are teenagers. What will be interesting to see is whether there has been a change by the time those same people are pensioners.

Also, personal/secret codes never evolved and usually died out for various reasons soon after they've been developed. 1337 isn't secret and isn't dying out any time soon.

The direction I would like to see 1337 would take would be less playing around with characters/numbers/symbols and more focus on unique words.


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## übermönch

I Am Herenow said:


> Are Hindi and Urdu the same or something (you'll have to forgive my ignorance)?


Certainly not! Hindi is written with an abudiga, while Urdu employs the arabic abjad. The consequences in spoken language are not much different from the ones between 1337 and English-speakers.


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## modus.irrealis

Pando said:


> There is 1337 in many languages, the one's that I have encountered are usually based on the "English version" but with several unique words. 1337 also takes influences from other languages, for instance the use of the German word _über_ as a superlative is common.



And that I do know has infiltrated into some people's speech.



> I think the difference now between English and 1337 is far bigger than lets say between Swedish and Norwegian and the gap keeps growing, very rapidly.


Could you give any examples of what you think are the major differences? Besides the spelling, since I can't see why that counts because if someone were to right English using Cyrillic or Greek letters, it wouldn't be a different language.


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## Pando

modus.irrealis said:


> Could you give any examples of what you think are the major differences? Besides the spelling, since I can't see why that counts because if someone were to right write English using Cyrillic or Greek letters, it wouldn't be a different language.


Spelling (_you_ - _yoo_, _the_ - _teh_ etc.) unique vocabulary (noob, raffle etc.), structure, conjugation etc.

If my answer isn't satisfying I'll have to return to as I'm quite short on time at the moment.


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## mcibor

Here you've got a dictionary of translations from battle.net and especially diablo bnet. It's for Polish speakers, but still it says:
słownik skrótów i pojęć z Diablo - meaning Dictionary of abbreviation and phrases, but the same you've got a dictionary of contemporary English...

So I don't think that leet is a language on it's own, 35p3c14lly th4t y0u c4n wr1t3 3v3ryth1ng 1n 5uch c0d3

PS. dnfd is derived from dnd (do not f... disturb)

R3g4rds
M1ch4l


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## modus.irrealis

Pando said:


> Spelling (_you_ - _yoo_, _the_ - _teh_ etc.) unique vocabulary (noob, raffle etc.), structure, conjugation etc.
> 
> If my answer isn't satisfying I'll have to return to as I'm quite short on time at the moment.



It's not satisfying since you can find those same differences between British and American English (although a word like structure can mean virtually anything so I have no idea what you have in mind here). But more generally, spelling has nothing to do with whether it's a different language, since, like I said before, if I started writing English in Cyrillic letters, it wouldn't be a different language. And even unique vocabulary, that exists among all sorts of groups, so I can't see how that makes for a different language either.


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## mcibor

Yes, but are American English and British English different languages?
For me they are both English, and I must really concentrate to hear difference between both of them spoken.

In my opinion there's a greater difference between Queen's English and Southern London English than between American one and Australian...


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## modus.irrealis

mcibor said:


> Yes, but are American English and British English different languages?



I think that's in response to my post, and if it is, I agree with the point you're making -- I don't think 1337 is a different language but a subvariety of English. I was thinking about what would make a good comparison, and came up with Thieves' Cant, and that seems to have a lot of similarities.


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## Whodunit

It is indeed like Hindi and Urdu, because it's just English in let's sday another script. Azeri can be written in Cyrillic and Latin letters, but it's still the same language and spoken the same. Or do you really pronounce the 1337ian words differently from their English counterparts? Seeing 13375p34k and knowing how I have to read the numbers, I'd read it out loud like "leet-speak."

Regarding conjugation: How do you write these sentences in Leet:
_Do you want to go home?_
_It helps me a lot._
_I'm not going to install that software on my PC._ ?

I just want to check if it is different from English and if it uses certain conjugation patterns.


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## I Am Herenow

I don't think there are any set rules - just what feels right really, especially as 1337 is evolving all the time (I would assume).

So 
\/\/4|\||\|4 g0 |-|0/\/\3, w4nna g0 h0m3 etc. would probably all be acceptable - just depends how "extremely" you write your leet - from the MSN-style "normal" abbreviations to 70741 1337x4G3 (and if "leetxage" isn't a word, it is now!)


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## Qcumber

What is the grammar of leet?
If leet has a grammar, it is a language.
If leet is only a sack of weird words, it's not a language.


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## I Am Herenow

Well there are various rules (ciphers, I suppose you could call them) on which letters become what. Observe (if more than one possibility, then listed in order of popularity [in my opinion]):

f <--> ph
e --> 3
a --> 4; @; /-\
s --> 5; z
o <--> 0
u --> 00; 0o; o0
w --> \/\/
h --> |-|
t --> 7
d --> |)
y --> j
g --> 6
the --> teh, t3h etc.; da, d4 etc.
am, are, was etc. --> is; =
-er; -or --> -x0r; -z0r (e.g "hacker" --> "h4x0r", "|-|4X0r" etc.)
There are others.


To see this in action, go to: 

http://www.google.com/intl/xx-hacker/


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## vachecow

Qcumber said:


> What is the grammar of leet?
> If leet has a grammar, it is a language.



The only grammar that leet may have comes from english. 
And no, leet isn't a language, although it did take me a while to get used to that google page.


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## Qcumber

vachecow said:


> The only grammar that leet may have comes from english.
> And no, leet isn't a language, although it did take me a while to get used to that google page.


If the grammar of leet is a subset of the grammar of English, then leet is a dialect of English.


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## vachecow

I was wondering what exactly a dialect is so I looked it up. This is what I found:
 a variety of a language that is distinguished from other varieties of the same language by features of phonology, grammar, and vocabulary, and by its use by a group of speakers who are set off from others geographically or socially. 

As far as I know,people dont speak leet/1337/L337 5p34k.  So could it be qualified simply as a different writing style?  I think its similar to Chinese, which has a simplified and a traditional writing style for the same spoken language.


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## I Am Herenow

I don't know about not speaking - basically just read the numbers as letters. There's nothing stopping someone saying "haxor" or "teh".


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## Qcumber

vachecow said:


> As far as I know,people dont speak leet/1337/L337 5p34k.


Therefore it is a dialect that is not spoken, but only written.


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## übermönch

Why? sure it is spoken. I couldn't count how often I heared löl or häksö in most recent times and all that incorporated in the local dialect of the German language.


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## I Am Herenow

I Am Herenow said:


> I don't know about not speaking - basically just read the numbers as letters. There's nothing stopping someone saying "haxor" or "teh".



↕



übermönch said:


> Why? sure it is spoken. I couldn't count how often I heared löl or häksö in most recent times and all that incorporated in the local dialect of the German language.



See? Told you!


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## Qcumber

übermönch said:


> Why? sure it is spoken. I couldn't count how often I heared löl or häksö in most recent times and all that incorporated in the local dialect of the German language.


What do *löl* and *häksö* mean?


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## Whodunit

Qcumber said:


> What do *löl* and *häksö* mean?


 
It's supposed to mean "laughing out loud" and "hacker." I hate that writing of "lol," I really detest it, because it doesn't show that it comes from English. The letter "ö" doesn't exist in English and it's a German peculiarity, I think, a really ugly one. The same goes for "häksö." 

I don't know anyone who seriously speaks like that. If he laughs, he laughs, and he doesn't say "lol" or whatever. And even then it would not be a *language*! "I Am Herenow", you should first define what _you_ understand by a language. It is not even a made-up language like Esperanto or Volapük. There are too many criteria to create a language, so that it would be impossible to do that just for fun.


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## Qcumber

Whodunit said:


> It's supposed to mean "laughing out loud" and "hacker."


So German _*löl*_ = English lol. Sorry I thought this German word was not a transposition of the English abbreviation LOL, but something else. Thanks a lot.


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## Whodunit

Qcumber said:


> So German _*löl*_ = English lol. Sorry I thought this German word nonsense was not a transposition of the English abbreviation LOL, but something else. Thanks a lot.


 
It is not a word, but a nonsensical abbreviation. I would never advice you to use it with a German native speaker in a chat, because some don't even understand it. If at all, use "lol" or "haha."


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## Qcumber

Whodunit said:


> It is not a word, but a nonsensical abbreviation. I would never advice you to use it with a German native speaker in a chat, because some don't even understand it. If at all, use "lol" or "haha."


 
I agree with you, Whodunit. 
Now, Übermönsch, why did you write this, arguing people say it.


> [leet] sure it is spoken. I couldn't count how often I heared löl or häksö in most recent times and all that incorporated in the local dialect of the German language.


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## I Am Herenow

In 1337, "lol" can also be spelt "lawl" (and "14\/\/1", "l4wl" etc.).


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## mcibor

I checked that google page and one thing struck me...
from all the names for languages Polish shows up.

Why is Polish and only Polish written as
>>>p0L1sH<<<  
??

Is there a rule for capital / small letters?


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## I Am Herenow

The only rule is to be as detached from the "normal" system as possible - i.e avoid capital letters at the start of sentences or for proper nouns, randomise the case you use etc.


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## sbc

I Am Herenow said:


> To see this in action, go to:
> 
> http://www.google.com/intl/xx-hacker/




I love the message it gives when it doesnt find any search results:

"j00|2 534|2(|-| - *6Oog13* - c|1c| |\|07 |\/|4+(|-| 4|\|y c|0(V|\/|3|\|+5. 5|-|17!!!!"

1|V|pH40!


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## smack_the_grammah

and someone has found a nice leet decoder.  conjugation analysis is in preparation according 2 the admin there.


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## Petrucci369

Woted no 

I wouldn´t consider it to be a complete language simply because it is based upon some sort of loaned translations from English and a creative way of writing. Furthermore, it seems to me that the language allows individual creativity when writing and the plain freedom to invent new ways of writing words; to me languages doesn´t quite allow that.  Ofcourse languages develop over time, but in general this "freedom" is not tolerated in proper writing. So as it is, I´d call it a code. 

But, I do find it very interesting that it could be the birth of a new 
language -who knows what it, and the world, will look like (sound like!) in 100 or 1000 years?

I rarely play computergames, yet I knew the substance of the expression "lol" (_laughing out loud) _before seeing it online and even before knowing that it actually was short for something. This and discussions like this convince me that words and language(s) designed in realation to the internet are definately here to stay and develop.  Whether it will simply add modifications to present languages or end up being some sort of online _stand-alone _is hard to tell, yet, 1337 already has it´s own name, it is somewhat separeted and in all it contains many singularities.  The foundation exists.


@ the über thing   

A couple of weeks back I caught myself saying:

        "yearh, it´s the über _bla bla bla..._"  

No idea how that sneaked in  

Have a nice day
Anders


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## awanzi

My opinion is that this is a "formal language" which differ from a "natural language", the former being "invented with a porpouse" (Esperanto, Pascal,  Basic, Symbols...) and the latter being  "naturally born" (German, Hindi, Swahili...).

At the end almost all the languages come from older ones, so I don't think is correct to say that this shouldn't be considered a language only for it's strong dependence from English.


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## Petrucci369

Well it is certainly is "out there".  Think this must be the first language converter that does 1337

http://www.freewarefiles.com/program_9_103_5795.html


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## suslik

I wouldn't count it as any language...at least not for me...


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## I Am Herenow

awanzi said:


> My opinion is that this is a "formal language" which differ from a "natural language", the former being "invented with a porpouse" (Esperanto, Pascal, Basic, Symbols...) and the latter being "naturally born" (German, Hindi, Swahili...).
> 
> At the end almost all the languages come from older ones, so I don't think is correct to say that this shouldn't be considered a language only for it's strong dependence from English.


 
He does have a point you know. If 1337 isn't a language because it's basically English with a few extra words, is Afrikaans not a language because it's "basically" Dutch; French, Spanish and Italian are all "basically" Latin, which in turn is "basically" Ancient Greek (also meaning Modern Greek isn't a language), which is also based on some other language, so none of the above are languages?!


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## Whodunit

I Am Herenow said:


> He does have a point you know. If 1337 isn't a language because it's basically English with a few extra words, is Afrikaans not a language because it's "basically" Dutch; French, Spanish and Italian are all "basically" Latin, which in turn is "basically" Ancient Greek (also meaning Modern Greek isn't a language), which is also based on some other language, so none of the above are languages?!


 
Just some questions that may make it an accepted language, if you can answer them "yes:"

- Is it worth the time learning it at all? (every language has its benefits)
- Would you write it in your CV, if you were able to speak/read it fluently?
- Is it possible at all to speak and write it fluently?
- Is there any folk, institution, family, whatever where such a language is used primarily?
- Are there (online) courses you can attend to learn 1337?
- Are there rules that are based on each other, so that you can form neologisms and adjust foreign words?


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## Petrucci369

I Am Herenow said:


> He does have a point you know. If 1337 isn't a language because it's basically English with a few extra words, is Afrikaans not a language because it's "basically" Dutch; French, Spanish and Italian are all "basically" Latin, which in turn is "basically" Ancient Greek (also meaning Modern Greek isn't a language), which is also based on some other language, so none of the above are languages?!


 
The languages you mention all sound very different, and have various singularities, that makes em significant compared to their roots. 1337 is basically English written in another way.

Let´s say that I would write this only using alphabetical numbers instead of letters, would I then be writeing in a new language? No... It´s just a code for talking/writing English. Ofcourse 1337 has some unique words but I´ll just consider them English slang. 

I think we could have the same discussion on SMS language (gr8=great, 4 y=for you, etc.) and I don´t think anyone would consider SMS language a real language. Or would they???


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## awanzi

Petrucci369 said:


> I think we could have the same discussion on SMS language (gr8=great, 4 y=for you, etc.) and I don´t think anyone would consider SMS language a real language. Or would they???



I think they do, actually!


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## I Am Herenow

So you're saying that uniquely 1337 words (e.g. "ftw") don't make it a new language with its own set of words; they are more like Englishisms/Americanisms (if that's a word - anyway, you know what I mean) entering Italian, Russian etc.? E.g. "OK", "e-mail", "football". All those words (like saying "OK" instead of "d'accord" or whatever) just enter the language and become part of it, rather than making "French 2".

However, when would you (any of you, I mean, not necessarily Petrucci369) draw the line? When does an evolution in a language turn into the creation of a new language?


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## awanzi

I Am Herenow said:


> However, when would you (any of you, I mean, not necessarily Petrucci369) draw the line? When does an evolution in a language turn into the creation of a new language?



In Evolution (biological) different species are born when the reproduction between individuals (previously belonging to the same species or groups) becomes impossible. 

Thus, if every (including 80 years old women) English native speaker understands the "1337" without having previous knowledge of its rules, than the "1337" it's just English.


Ps: this is (only) my very personal opinion!


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## Whodunit

I Am Herenow said:


> However, when would you (any of you, I mean, not necessarily Petrucci369) draw the line? When does an evolution in a language turn into the creation of a new language?


 
When more than two people are able to converse in the "new" language, as if it were their mother tongue. That's why a constructed (not a re-constructed, though!) language is not considered a language until a generation later. This is not an accepted language either, in my opinion, although Tolkien has already published grammar books for it.


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## I Am Herenow

Oh my God, I can't believe he invented a whole language (if not more) for a children's book. And now the 15-hours-a-day _Dungeons and Dragons _/ _World of Warcraft_-playing geeks are going to be fluent in bloody Trollish*! If you want to learn a language, learn Spanish or Japanese - not _Garhxabroor_ that's spoken by the Filligogg Elves! ARRGH!

Anyway, rant over. So you're saying that only languages that have naturally evolved deserve to be called languages: that artificially constructed ones (1337, Esperanto and _Xillifig_ or whatever) shouldn't be called languages at all?

However, what I'm asking is whether 1337 is a language at all; not whether it is a language that has evolved naturally, as well all know it hasn't. Why does its rapid evolution and artifical construction stop it from being classed as a lnguage?

*Well, I say "going to be" - they probably already are, it's just that I only found out about the existence of _Guides to Dwarven Grammar_ today.


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## javier8907

I would say that 1337 is, by the moment, a subvariety of English, characterised by the speakers' -or writers'- will of running from the original language, and yet constructed majorly by English speakers, which makes many of their unexpected derivations have a particularly English feeling. For example, the avoiding of personal pronouns was extended in vulgar English before leetspeak's bang, or even this word, "leetspeak" has a particularly English-germanic taste. Even though, as speakers of others pre-existent languages put more of them into this weird blend, a new language may well split from English.

Leet's one is a difficult case, because it's mere existence is based on the new technologies, so to some extent it can't be compared to any previous speak. Anyway, many of its distinctive features have been in use in English since before. For example, forming new words from many words' beginnings or as blends of previous words has been done in English for decades, not to say centuries -I can't think of better examples than 'spam' (original sense) and 'motel', but I suppose most of you will know better ones.

-to be continued.


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## BezierCurve

There are a few expressions like that in Polish (3V = 3 - maj (month of May) = "trzymaj" = "you hold"), and I'm sure they can be found in any other language. It's just a different (quicker, but not always) way of coding words, depending on the pronunciation of separate characters of a word. It's been fashionabe lately, that's it. There are no new words invented. No new syntax structures. Just a code.


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