# Wziąć and similar verbs in genitive case



## surikatka

Cześć!

I have been doing some translation practice from a book "Das erste Polnische Lesebuch für Anfänger" (First Polish Reader for Beginners).  I am not sure why the verb changes in the following examples and wonder if you could enlighten me. 

Can I take this bike?

*Czy mogę wziąc ten rower?*

No, you can’t take this bike.

*Nie, nie możesz brać tego roweru. * 

Can we lay these notebooks on her bed?

*Czy możemy położyć te notesy na jej lóżku?*

No, you can’t lay notebooks on her bed.

*Nie, nie możecie kłaść notesów na jej łóżku.  
*
Is there a rule concerning these imperfective/perfective verbs in the genitive case (or a general preference), or is this just an arbitrary change?  


Dziękuję!


----------



## zaffy

'Nie możesz wziąć tego roweru' sounds perfect to me but it refers to one situation like now, today.  
'Nie możesz brać tego roweru'  - generally   

Nie możesz położyć - now 
Nie możesz kłaść  - generally


----------



## Ben Jamin

I can't see any grammatical reason of changing the verb from perfective to imperfective.
Maybe if the answering person wants to emphasasize that there is a general prohibition of doing this or that, the aspect can be changed. But there must be a context reason for that. I think that this example is confusing for the learner and should be changed or explained by changing the context.


----------



## jasio

First, I'd like to make a general remark: the title of the thread is wrong: verbs do not inflect by cases, so 'verbs in genitive' does not make much case. Secondly, in Polish, similarly to German - but unlike English - in Polish there is a clear distinction between personal ('du kannst [nicht]/[nie] możesz') and impersonal ('man kann [nicht] / [nie] można') usage, with the latter being used for general rules, and the former - for the rules related to a particular person.

With this in mind, frankly speaking, I do not fully understand these examples, especially the example with the bike. ;-) It just does not make much sense to me. Normally, I would use perfective verb to refer to the particular situation, or imperfective verb and impersonal form to express a general rule (like 'nie można brać cudzych rowerów). Like Zaffy wrote: in this kind of statements generally perfective aspect is used to refer to the current situation, while the imperfective - to express more general statements (always/never). That's why the combination used in the example is just awkward or requires a special context. 

Sometimes aspects are also used to differentiate between completed and uncompleted actions as well, like 'Nie możesz podnieść tego ciężaru' (you can't lift this weight = it's impossible because it's too heavy) vs. 'nie możesz podnosić tego ciężaru' (ie. you could try, but you would break your back). In either case, perfective verbs *can* be used in  negative statements.


----------



## jasio

Let me give you some more specific examples to help you understand the differences between aspects in this type of questions. Also, I will use the personal / impersonal differentiation which I mentioned in my previous post.

Q: *Czy mogę wziąć ten rower?* - request for a one-time permission to take a bike

A: *Nie, nie możesz wziąć tego roweru* - this is the most natural and most general response. You ask for a one-time permission and in response you receive a one-time refusal. That's why BenJamin wrote that he did not see any reason to change the aspect. Please note that this response does not refer to any future cases: it does not say that in future you could or could not take the bicycle. We're clearly discussing a one-time event, most typically effective immediately, although the question above in the present tense could also be asked to refer to an event planned in a predictable, near future - like this afternoon.

A: *Nie, nie można brać cudzych rowerów* - the second most typical response, although it doesn't fit all possible situations. You ask for permission, and in return I remind you a social rule (perhaps you're a child or perhaps you're just attempting to shockingly break a widely recognised rule). This structure is often used in action movies when a character breaks into someone else's house or steals a car, and his or her friend expresses disappointment.

A: *Nie, nie można brać tego roweru* - noone can take this particular bicycle in any case. It's in a way special: perhaps it belongs to the most dangerous guy in the quarter, perhaps it's mine, perhaps it's precious, perhaps it's damaged. It's possible that you might take some other bicycle though - although we do not discuss it, because we focus on this one particular bike.

A: *Nie, nie możesz brać tego roweru* - specifically you cannot take this particular bike in any case - but someone else, perhaps, could. Maybe it's too big for you, I'm afraid that you could damage it, or the bike's owner doesn't like you.


Please note that the question itself could also be asked with the use of the imperfective aspect:

Q: *Czy mogę brać ten rower?* - you refer to more than one event. Perhaps you're staying here for a week as a guest, and you prefer to receive a general permission to use the bike rather than ask for it every time you need it. This question does not sound very naturally (in a natural situation I would probably say 'czy mogę korzystać z tego roweru?' or 'czy mogę używać tego roweru?' = 'can I use this bike?', also imperfective) but from a grammatical standpoint it's correct and helps understand the difference.


----------



## surikatka

jasio said:


> First, I'd like to make a general remark: the title of the thread is wrong: verbs do not inflect by cases, so 'verbs in genitive' does not make much case .



Sorry, what I meant to write was "verbs WITH genitive case."  I think too much language study is muddling my thinking even in my native tongue.


----------



## surikatka

> In either case, perfective verbs *can* be used in negative statements.



Dziękuję, this is the confirmation I was looking for.  I appreciate the detailed breakdown and explanation as well.  As a linguist I find it fascinating,but as a beginner Polish learner it is too much to assimilate and use correctly right now.  I hope to get there eventually.


----------



## surikatka

jasio said:


> Let me give you some more specific examples to help you understand the differences between aspects in this type of questions. Also, I will use the personal / impersonal differentiation which I mentioned in my previous post.
> 
> Q: *Czy mogę wziąć ten rower?* - request for a one-time permission to take a bike
> 
> A: *Nie, nie możesz wziąć tego roweru* - this is the most natural and most general response. You ask for a one-time permission and in response you receive a one-time refusal. That's why BenJamin wrote that he did not see any reason to change the aspect. Please note that this response does not refer to any future cases: it does not say that in future you could or could not take the bicycle. We're clearly discussing a one-time event, most typically effective immediately, although the question above in the present tense could also be asked to refer to an event planned in a predictable, near future - like this afternoon.
> 
> A: *Nie, nie można brać cudzych rowerów* - the second most typical response, although it doesn't fit all possible situations. You ask for permission, and in return I remind you a social rule (perhaps you're a child or perhaps you're just attempting to shockingly break a widely recognised rule). This structure is often used in action movies when a character breaks into someone else's house or steals a car, and his or her friend expresses disappointment.
> 
> A: *Nie, nie można brać tego roweru* - noone can take this particular bicycle in any case. It's in a way special: perhaps it belongs to the most dangerous guy in the quarter, perhaps it's mine, perhaps it's precious, perhaps it's damaged. It's possible that you might take some other bicycle though - although we do not discuss it, because we focus on this one particular bike.
> 
> A: *Nie, nie możesz brać tego roweru* - specifically you cannot take this particular bike in any case - but someone else, perhaps, could. Maybe it's too big for you, I'm afraid that you could damage it, or the bike's owner doesn't like you.
> 
> 
> Please note that the question itself could also be asked with the use of the imperfective aspect:
> 
> Q: *Czy mogę brać ten rower?* - you refer to more than one event. Perhaps you're staying here for a week as a guest, and you prefer to receive a general permission to use the bike rather than ask for it every time you need it. This question does not sound very naturally (in a natural situation I would probably say 'czy mogę korzystać z tego roweru?' or 'czy mogę używać tego roweru?' = 'can I use this bike?', also imperfective) but from a grammatical standpoint it's correct and helps understand the difference.



To niesamowite wyjaśnienie!  Dziękuję bardzo!!!


----------



## jasio

;-)

I'm glad you liked it.


----------



## Poland91pl

on the other hand the imperfective forms would be used with the verb "wolno " ( if it is a verb at all haha )- nie wolno ci brać tego roweru ! Sounds really natural to my ears.


----------

