# long, lang (French and German)



## cyaxares_died

Apparently German "lang" and French "long" come from the Indo-European root *dlongus. Both languages got rid of the initial "d". Was the German maybe borrowed from French, or the other way round, or could someone give me other examples of words in French and German who lost their former "d"s ?

Did the English develop from Anglo-Saxon (as common sense suggests) or was it borrowed from French (as one could think judging by the vowel)?


----------



## Frank06

Hi,


cyaxares_died said:


> Apparently German "lang" and French "long" come from the Indo-European root *dlongus.  Both languages got rid of the initial "d".
> Did the English develop from Anglo-Saxon (as common sense suggests) or was it borrowed from French (as one could think judging by the vowel)?


Technically, no. I mean, your introduction is wrong. Neither French nor German got rid of initial *d- in this case. Already both *PGm* and *Latin* already lost initial *d-. This is reflected by cognates in the other Germanic and Romance languages.
I should also add that the PIE root is *del-, and that *dlong-gho is "probably (an) extended and suffixed zero-grade form", see here.

Old English did have _lang_ (cognates in other older Germanic languages have the a-vocalism, OFris., OS, OHG, Goth., ODu.).
But we see the change of OE wordfinal -ang to ModE wordfinal -ong also in a word as OE wrang > ModE wrong, so I think that's an indication that we don't need French to explain OE lang > ModE long.

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Kevin Beach

Hmmmm ... Frank06 I have no evidence for this, but my instinct tells me that the presence of the Norman-French "long" in England from A.D. 1066 probably drew "lang" into itself like a magnet.

"Lang" and "wrang" still exist in some rural dialects in the North of England (? and in Scotland?)


----------



## Frank06

Hi,


Kevin Beach said:


> Hmmmm ... Frank06 I have no evidence for this, but my instinct tells me that the presence of the Norman-French "long" in England from A.D. 1066 probably drew "lang" into itself like a magnet.


Let's move beyond instinct. In EHL we're supposed to come up with clues, hints, facts, arguments, etc.
You might be right about French influence, and I am not that sure about my explanation, as indicated. I am not going to bet on either of them. 
But please give us a slightly more solid basis for a debate than mere instinct.

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Kevin Beach

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Let's move beyond instinct. In EHL we're supposed to come up with clues, hints, facts, arguments, etc.
> You might be right about French influence, and I am not that sure about my explanation, as indicated. I am not going to bet on either of them.
> But please give us a slightly more solid basis for a debate than mere instinct.
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank


Well, maybe it's instinct based on nearly sixty years in the country, learning and living its language and history, and studying other languages and their influence on each other.

Other than your example "wrang/wrong", I'd like to know what the evidence is for saying that there was a general shift from -ang to -ong in English.


----------



## Frank06

Hi,



> Other than your example "wrang/wrong", I'd like to know what the evidence is for saying that there was a general shift from -ang to -ong in English.


You could have read my post: I never mentioned "a general shift", I clearly stated "I think that's an indication", which is not really an expression of firm evidence and I said that your explanation is possible. 
All I need is something more than instinct.



Kevin Beach said:


> Well, maybe it's instinct based on nearly sixty years in the country, learning and living its language and history, and studying other languages and their influence on each other.


Ja ja. 
But I am more interested in your arguments.

Frank


----------



## Kevin Beach

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> You could have read my post: I never mentioned "a general shift", I clearly stated "I think that's an indication", which is not really an expression of firm evidence and I said that your explanation is possible.
> All I need is something more than instinct.
> 
> 
> Ja ja.
> But I am more interested in your arguments.
> 
> Frank


Arguments depend on logic.

Logic depends on premises.

Premises are observed, not deduced.

_Major premise:_ My observation, from my own experience and from what I have read and heard, is that, when languages encounter each other, they influence each other's development.

_Minor premise:_ My observation, from what I have heard and read, is that late Old English and Norman-French encountered each other intimately from A.D. 1066.

_Conclusion:_ Norman French (as it was spoken in England) and late Old English probably influenced each other's development.

_Incidence of conclusion:_ The late Old English word "lang" was probably influenced by its use alongside the Norman French synonym "long" to mutate into "long".

_Quod erat demonstrandum._

Thus is my argument.


----------



## berndf

Kevin Beach said:


> _Quod erat demonstrandum._


Well, it's a _clue_, not a _proof_. The QED is a bit premature.
 
According to Grimm and OED the form _long_ existed alongside _lang_ already in Anglo-Saxon and Old Frisian. The influence of French _long_ may have secured the eventual victory of _long _over_ lang _in English. But it is not the origin of the form. Both forms are attested side by side in England until and 15th century. In Scots the form _lang_ still exists. Hence it might also be that _long_ was simply an arbitrary choice as standard spelling in Chancery English.


----------



## CapnPrep

Another clue: Words like _mount_, _count, round, plunge_ (corresponding to Mod Fr _mont_, _com(p)te_, _rond_, _plonger_) suggest that "o" followed by a nasal consonant underwent raising in Norman French and was pronounced more like . If _long_ was introduced during the same period, we might expect the result in English to be something like _loung_ or _lung_.


----------



## dinji

There are some more arguments for this sound shift here:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=long

Another parallel: _song_ < _*sangwaz_ 
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=song


----------



## berndf

CapnPrep said:


> Words like _mount_, _count, round, plunge_ (corresponding to Mod Fr _mont_, _com(p)te_, _rond_, _plonger_) suggest that "o" followed by a nasal consonant underwent raising in Norman French and was pronounced more like .


Are these forms found in Anglo-French texts themselves of were they created during the assimilation process into Middle English?


----------



## Frank06

Hi,

This page, to which Dinji refered to in post #10, suggests that the o/a alternation was indeed quite common in OE (and after): 


> The word [long] illustrates the O.E. tendency for short "a" to become short "o" before -n- (also retained in bond/band and W. Midlands dial. lond from land and hond from hand).


This piece of information helped me to locate other sources which deal with o/a before *nasals*, for example here (Word file): 


> In many dialects of Old English, short *a* was respelled as *o* before nasals in _monn, begon_, etc., a rounding that was later reversed as spellings reverted to _o_.


Also this page (fragment via google books) clearly describes the OE tendency (p. 38-39 and p. 41).
I wouldn't go as far as stating QED, but in my humble opinion this *seems* to confirm that we don't need French to explain lang>long (and all the other instances of a+Nasal > o+Nasal). 

I also wonder in how far this alternation played a role in some instances described by the "Ingvaeonic nasal spirant law" (*gans/goose, *tanþ/tooth,*anþara-/other).

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## CapnPrep

berndf said:


> Are these forms found in Anglo-French texts themselves of were they created during the assimilation process into Middle English?


With a common enough word and enough texts, I guess you can find every imaginable spelling… For example, in the AND entry for _rund_:


> rund, reund, rooend, rond, round, runt, rount; runde, rounde (rooant);  f.runde, f.rounde


But I haven't tried to piece together the progression of forms, just the "endpoints". And evidence from spelling is always tricky anyway, for example Sampson (1999, p. 75) mentions an early spelling convention — at least in continental French — of using "o" to represent nasal [ũ].


----------



## berndf

I find it a bit difficult to understand what the essence of your answer is. Maybe my question was wrongly worded. What I wanted to know was whether the "raising" happed in Anglo-French ifself or in Middle English during the assimilation prosses. When I understand you correctly, your answer is "I don't know". Right?


----------



## CapnPrep

Sorry, since you mentioned "texts" I understood that you were asking about written forms. But the answer to your question can be found in the link I provided (p. 74): the raising happened around the beginning of the twelfth century in western and north-western dialects.


----------



## berndf

I see. Thank you.

EDIT: 
So the raising happened in Anglo-French and the diphthongization in ME. The reason I asked was because _compter _being imported into ME with a long vowel, i.e. [ko:ntən] or, gliding, [koʊntən] is quite possible but [lo:ŋ] or [loʊŋ] is hard to imagine. I am not aware of any syllable with a long vowel in English ending in [ŋ]. Hence, even if Kevin’s surmise were correct I still wouldn’t expect the spelling “loung”.


----------



## origumi

It seems that "Long" as a surname is attributed to the Normans, while "Lang" is clearly Old English.


> The chronicles of England, shrouded by the mists of time, reveal the early records of the name Long as a Norman surname which ranks as one of the oldest. The history of the name is interwoven in the colourful fabric which is an intrinsic part of the history of Britain.


Much more here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/FARMBOROUGH/2003-10/1066791313.


> Lang is a name of Anglo-Saxon origin. It was a name given to a person who was considered long or tall. The name occurs in Old English charters as early as 972 A.D, as Aetheric thes langa. Of the many surnames in England, the surname Lang is considered among etymologists to be one of the oldest. It belongs to a broad and miscellaneous class of surnames.


Much more here: http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/lang-family-crest.htm


----------



## rcottere

If you look at the vowel alterations in derived words, it would appear that long is of Germanic stock.

long --> length
strong --> strength

English words imported from French tend not to form substances in such a fashion.


----------



## Orion7

cyaxares_died said:


> Apparently German "lang" and French "long" come from the Indo-European root *dlongus. Both languages got rid of the initial "d". Was the German maybe borrowed from French, or the other way round, or could someone give me other examples of words in French and German who lost their former "d"s ?
> 
> Did the English develop from Anglo-Saxon (as common sense suggests) or was it borrowed from French (as one could think judging by the vowel)?


1. Why German has l*a*ng, but French l*o*ng? - Because German  _lang < Go. *langs_, but French/English _long < *longus < *(d)longus_.
2. _*dlongus_ is not the PIE form, but Proto-Latin form. As the basis of _long_ and _lang_ is _*tālan+kas_, Latvian _tāl(u)s_ 'distant, far, faraway', _kas_ 'what'. From _*tālan-kas > *dālangos > *dlongus_.
Russian _долгий / dolgij_ has the same etymology. But _далёкий / dalekij_ from _tālē-kas_, Latvian _tālē_ 'in the distance'.


----------



## berndf

Orion7 said:


> 2. _*dlongus_ is not the PIE form, but Proto-Latin form. As the basis of _long_ and _lang_ is _*tālan+kas_, Latvian _tāl(u)s_ 'distant, far, faraway', _kas_ 'what'. From _*tālan-kas > *dālangos > *dlongus_.


Looking at standard etymological dictionaries, I see absolutely no basis for such a claim. Please substantiate it.


----------



## Maroseika

According to Max Vasmer Russian долгий and далекий are both of the same origin as Greek δολιχός, Lavian il̃gs, Lat. longus and indulgeo, Gothic laggs (AI dīrghás).


----------

