# <把>汉语说得...



## Sweetboat

老师，
1. 汉语已经说得真好，
2. 把汉语已经说得真好，

不用更说， 而我还说得差，该练习练得多。

1， 2 都可以吗？


----------



## hx1997

1. 他学习汉语五年了，现在（他的）汉语已经说得很好。
2. 他学习汉语五年了，已经把汉语说得很好。


----------



## Sweetboat

我本来提的句子中第一个听得不对吗？

还有，他学习汉语五年了，汉语已经说得很好， 这个怎么样？


----------



## hx1997

Sweetboat said:


> 我本来提的句子中第一个听得不对吗？


Your sentence 1 is missing a grammatical subject, and is thus confusing: Who speaks Chinese well already? That's why I added some context to it, making the subject (他) clear.
Also, the use of 说得真好 in this case sounds weird (I don't know why), so I changed it into 说得很好.



Sweetboat said:


> 还有，他学习汉语五年了，汉语已经说得很好， 这个怎么样？


It's good.

EDIT: Technically, sentence 1 has a grammatical subject, i.e. 汉语... It's just the subject of the verb 说 is not clear.


----------



## Sweetboat

Xiexie,

What I meant was my teacher speaks 中文 well. (She's Chinese after all!)

老师汉语已经说得真好 (Teacher you speak Chinese very well.)

这样怎么样？without ba?
真好 still sounds awkward?


----------



## hx1997

Oh, that's different then. As a compliment, it would be better to say 老师汉语说得真好 (without 已经). What I said yesterday was a description of a person's proficiency in Chinese.


----------



## Skatinginbc

Sweetboat said:


> 老师汉语已经说得真好 (Teacher you speak Chinese very well.)


Here, "Chinese" refers to a particular Chinese variety.  My preference is therefore: 老师, 您的普通話(or another particular Chinese dialect)说得真好 > 老师, 您的中文说得真好 > 老师, 您的汉语说得真好.

把-construction: for example, 老师, 您把普通話说得真好听, 像歌曲一样悦耳.

*已经...真好* is not idiomatic. 已经...很好, on the other hand, is acceptable.  I don't know why 已经 is included in your *老师汉语已经说得真好* since your English sentence "Teacher you speak Chinese very well" does not spell out the sense of "already".


----------



## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> Here, "Chinese" refers to a particular Chinese variety.  My preference is therefore: 老师, 您的普通話(or another particular Chinese dialect)说得真好 > 老师, 您的中文说得真好 > 老师, 您的汉语说得真好.
> 
> 把-construction: for example, 老师, 您把普通話说得真好听, 像歌曲一样悦耳.


我有异议。
1. I don't think "Chinese" refers to a particular Chinese variety in the sentence. Why did you think so?
2. 用>这样有个性的符号很不容易理解吧？
3. "老师, 您把普通話说得真好听" 这句感觉怪怪的……汉语比较习惯用“你的普通话说得真好听”，极少说“你把普通话说得真好听”。“说得真好听”往往是指说话的内容。


----------



## Skatinginbc

我給了翻譯, 並說明我的偏好次序是：「您的普通話說得真好」> 「您的中文說得真好」>  「您的漢語說得真好」，原因是那句應有特指，如「你外語說得真好」不是「所有的外語」或「任何的外語」，而是特定的、你知我知的某種外語.  既然有所指，不如明說了，省得猜謎，所以我偏好「你英文(或某特定語言)說得真好」，勝過「你外語說得真好」.

這個 thread 的標題是 <把>, 所以我給了翻譯之後，又給了一個「把字句」的例子，供樓主比較差異.  我的例子顯然與樓主給的情境不符 (註：樓主沒說跟唱歌一樣).  為何改變語境？顯然我認為在類似樓主提供的情境下，我們「習慣」的贊人方式，不會用 「把」(see SuperXW #8 ).  換句話說，若用「把」就不是一般「習慣」的方式，而是特殊的情境.

「你話說得真好」沒「把」，遵循贊人的「習慣」方式.  這句的「話」乃特指，如「這番話」.

「你把話說得真好聽」有「把」，非贊人的「習慣」方式.  該句其實有言下之意 (譬如，把邪惡的企圖說得天花亂墜)，通常有諷刺的意味.

同樣的道理，我的例句也有言下之意，是「把原本難聽的東西說得如此悅耳動聽，如歌曲一般」.  說漢語難聽，當然與中國人的認知「習慣」牴觸.  可是，恕我直言：中文的抑揚頓挫、平上去入，在許多英語人士耳裡，就像吵架、砸鍋摔碗一般，king-king-kiang-kiang，好不逆耳.  我的目的就是要指出，「你的普通話說得真好」和「你把普通話說得真好聽」的重要差異，就是後者有言下之意，暗示負面的成見.

總之，我先給了翻譯，然後才給了個把字句來作對比(contrast).


----------



## Sweetboat

多谢诸位。
我的中文水平还不太高，不会读长文，以后慢慢看上两个回答。

我最近找到中国人的老师，跟她学习。
上次她说得太多，我有点不满意。
我是要说中文才费钱的，不是要听。
所以 “老师，你已经汉语说得很好 （先写‘已经’也可以吧？）
， 而我呢？ 给我更多机会说话”。

（顺便说一下，我喜欢中文因为中文有声调。 听起来很帅。）


----------



## Ghabi

Hello, I would change it slightly:

“老师，你已经汉语已经说得很好了 ，而我呢？ 给我更多机会说话吧”。


----------



## Sweetboat

Xiexie Ghabi


----------



## Skatinginbc

Sweetboat said:


> “老师，你已经汉语说得很好...而我呢？ 给我更多机会说话”。


It sounds like a sugar-coated complaint rather than a sincere compliment.  You want your teacher to talk less or shut up so that you can have 更多机会说话?


----------



## Sweetboat

It is a complaint all right.

Yes I'd prefer that she talked less so I could speak more.
(Shut up is such a strong expression, I wouldn't say this, of course.)

I know she means well and wants to teach me a lot.
However, without her (and my other Chinese teacher), I have no one to talk to in Chinese.
But I can easily listen to Chinese using other media.

I just want to improve my spoken Chinese.


----------



## hx1997

How about “老师，我想多锻炼锻炼自己的口语，能让我多说一些吗？” It sounds more polite.


----------



## Sweetboat

Thank you for your suggestion.

I was worried, too, that she may feel hurt. 

It's hard.


----------



## brofeelgood

If you're paying for the lessons, I think you're well within the confines of what you're entitled to expect to tell her the format you'd like the lessons to assume.
*hx1997*'s suggestion in #15 is excellent.

"老师, 您把普通話说得真好听" 
"老师汉语说得真好"

These compliments are fine on their own, but if you follow them up with something like "why don't you let me have more of the floor instead?", the whole thing will spin around and sound like outright sarcasm instead. Not recommended.


----------



## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> 我給了翻譯, 並說明我的偏好次序是：「您的普通話說得真好」> 「您的中文說得真好」>  「您的漢語說得真好」，原因是那句應有特指，如「你外語說得真好」不是「所有的外語」或「任何的外語」，而是特定的、你知我知的某種外語.  既然有所指，不如明說了，省得猜謎，所以我偏好「你英文(或某特定語言)說得真好」，勝過「你外語說得真好」.


“中文/汉语”已经是特定语言了，相当于“英语”的地位。“普通话”是“中文/汉语”的默认官方形式，不需要特指，方言才需要特指。


----------

