# To have ل / لدى / عند / مع



## josephpausini

I have a few questions concerning the usage of these 3 words for "to have".

ma3a i normally use it when i want to say that i'm with someone like "ana ma3a Lina" or "Lina ma3ak?".

But I have a few doubts on knowing when to use عند and لي. 
If someone can help me understand it better, I would appreciate it so much.


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## huhmzah

Hey!

Before anything I just wanna state the obvious just to be clear  --  in English "to have" is a verbal concept -- in Arabic there is no exact verb which covers the concept of "having" instead there are several different ways in which the idea is conveyed.

In some cases I guess the verb ""yamliku" يملك  "to own/possess" could be used.

However the prepositions "ma3a", "li-", "3ind" and "ladaa" are used in different ways to convey the idea of possession or "having".

"Ma3a" typically carries the meaning of association or accompaniment though -- "with" (as in: Lina ma3ak? --> Is Lina with you?), but it may also be used to convey the idea of "having", in particular when its something concrete / tangible that someone has physically --> like a comb, a bag, a book or something:
ex:
1) معك كتابي؟ - *ma3*ak kitabi? - Do you have my book?
2) نعم كتابك معي  - na3am, kitabuka *ma3*aya - Yes, I have your book (or - your book is with me).

"li-" is another preposition which can also be used to convey the idea of possession ("having") --> this usage is called لام الملك (Laam of possession) -- "li-" unlike "ma3a" may be used to convey both concrete and abstract notions of "having" ex:
1) *للبيت* حديقة - *li*-l-bayti 7adiiqatun -- The house has a garden. (concrete)
2) لا معنى *له* - la ma3na *la*hu - It has has no meaning. (abstract)
3) كان *لها* أخ - kaana *la-*ha akhun - She had a brother.

"'ind" عند may be used to indicate the idea of "having" as well -->
1) عندي مشكلة معهم - *'indii* mushkilatun ma3hum - I have a problem with them.
2) عندي أصدقاء في الجامعة - *'indii *asdiqa-a fi l-jami3ati - I have friends in the university.

Another preposition which can be used to express possession or "having" is "ladaa" (لدى) -->
1) لا مستقبل لديه - La mustaqbila *lada*y-hi - He has no future.
2) لديهما إشياء مشتركة كثيرة - *Lada*y-himaa ashyaa-u  mushtarakatun kathiratun -- They have many shared things.

My reference is Karen Ryding's grammar reference for MSA.

The concept of "having" in English expressions won't always find neat equivalents in Arabic. Sometimes "to have" is used idiomatically and may not require any of the above mentioned prepositions, or may require some other element in its Arabic translations ex: Instead of trying to translate "I have a sickness" directly, a more efficient translation just might be "Ana mariidh" (I am sick) etc. Moreover, "have" also appears in other expressions like "I have to eat food!" --> here "have" indicates necessity and not possession etc.

Anyway! Hope that helps.


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## Ander

huhmzah said:


> Another preposition which can be used to express possession or "having" is "ladaa" (لدى) -->
> 1) لا مستقبل لديه - La mustaqbila *lada*y-hi - He has no future.
> 2) لديهما إشياء مشتركة كثيرة - *Lada*y-himaa ashyaa-u  mushtarakatun kathiratun -- They have many shared things.



Is it ladaa or laday ?

I wonder if that word isn't the compound of la-, related to the above mentioned li-,  and of  -daa (or day)  which could be related  to the possessive  dhuu.

Does an etymological dictionary of Arabic exist? On the Internet as there is one for English and Turkish?


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## elroy

Ander said:


> Is it ladaa or laday ?


 It's _lada_, but it becomes _laday-_ when followed by a pronoun suffix.


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## Xence

Ander said:


> I wonder if that word isn't the compound of la-, related to the above mentioned li-, and of -daa (or day) which could be related to the possessive dhuu.
> 
> Does an etymological dictionary of Arabic exist?


 
_ladaa_ is a deformation/alteration of _ladun_ which has nearly the same meaning that _3ind._

You can find more about _ladaa_ in Lisaanu-l-Arab and many other classical dictionaries. May I suggest this site (الباحث العربي) which has a powerful search engine? You just type لدى .


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## Josh_

Nice explanations huhmzah.  I just wanted to add a few minor things, in case they weren't already clear.



huhmzah said:


> "Ma3a" typically carries the meaning of association or accompaniment though -- "with" (as in: Lina ma3ak? --> Is Lina with you?), but it may also be used to convey the idea of "having", in particular when its something concrete / tangible that someone has physically --> like a comb, a bag, a book or something:
> ex:
> 1) معك كتابي؟ - *ma3*ak kitabi? - Do you have my book?
> 2) نعم كتابك معي  - na3am, kitabuka *ma3*aya - Yes, I have your book (or - your book is with me).


ma3a is used when the object in on one's person or readily at hand.  For instance if you have money in your pocket you could say:

معي فلوس

But if you are at the store, for instance, and your money is at home you would not use ma3a, but you could use 3ind:

عندي فلوس في البيت



> "'ind" عند may be used to indicate the idea of "having" as well -->
> 1) عندي مشكلة معهم - *'indii* mushkilatun ma3hum - I have a problem with them.
> 2) عندي أصدقاء في الجامعة - *'indii *asdiqa-a fi l-jami3ati - I have friends in the university.
> 
> Another preposition which can be used to express possession or "having" is "ladaa" (لدى) -->
> 1) لا مستقبل لديه - La mustaqbila *lada*y-hi - He has no future.
> 2) لديهما إشياء مشتركة كثيرة - *Lada*y-himaa ashyaa-u  mushtarakatun kathiratun -- They have many shared things.


I understand لدى as being slighly more abstract and more formal than  عند .

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There is also another verb used to express possession, but it is used more with the meaning of acquiring (property).  It is قنا (present يقنو ).  The form XIII, اقتنى occurs as well.


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## josephpausini

Thank you very much, I didn't know about لدى or قنا. =].
I am also comparing Arabic for first mother tongue, Spanish. There are certain things--like this one and others-- that are not used or have equivalent in english but are in Spanish; Like Perfect and Imperfect tense prefixes and suffixes, expressions, etc. And makes it much easer to understand!

Just to make sure i got things clear:

مع usually refers to having something in your person.
معي خمسة جنيهات I have five pounds (with me).

عند used for people but also expresses ownership over an object (house, care, etc.), as well as something that is not in the general vicinity of the owner.
عندي خمسة جنيهات في لبنك I have five pounds in the bank.

ل is more for when referring to owning abstract things or people.
لي صديقان I have two friends
لي خبرة I have experience.

I hope I'm write! Thanks to everyone who helped!! =]

شوكرا جزيلا


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## clevermizo

It's a little embarrassing but up until now I had no idea معي was pronounced _ma3aya_ in fus7a. All this time I always thought it was strange that all these dialects were going around pronouncing this معايا، معاك، معاكي, of course now my oft-rehearsed معِي (ma3i) sounds more aberrant.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> It's a little embarrassing but up until now I had no idea معي was pronounced _ma3aya_ in fus7a. All this time I always thought it was strange that all these dialects were going around pronouncing this معايا، معاك، معاكي, of course now my oft-rehearsed معِي (ma3i) sounds more aberrant.


 No need to be embarrassed, because it _is_ pronounced _ma3i_.  Either that or I've been wrong my whole life, along with every Arabic speaker I've ever heard pronounce the word. 

By the way, in Palestinian Arabic both pronunciations occur: _ma3i_ and _ma3aay_.


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## Josh_

Yeah, I will back up Elroy's statement, it is definitely ma3i in fusHa.  I would have commented on huhmzah's usage of ma3aya, but I didn't even notice it.  This must have been the case with the others who replied.


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## huhmzah

lol woops, sry bout معي. My fus7a professor would've cringed!
I think I probably wrote it as ma3aya because its stuck in my head from the Tunisian dialect. I'm not sure at all why they say ma3aya and not just ma3i -- perhaps it carried over through imitation because other prepositions like في, على, إلى, لدى end with a *"-ya"* sound in the first person (on account of their "ya" or alif-maqSuura ending, which ma3 doesn't have). But I'm not sure -- is it the same in other dialects?


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## Emeté

Hi everybody.

I'm wondering whether لِ and لدى are usually interchangeable in MSA when expressing possession. I've been using لِ as well as عند and مع, with little difference of meaning, but I came across لدى in another thread, in this sentence:
.يوجد لدي قرط على لساني​
Since I didn't knew about لدى, I would have expressed the possession by using لِ instead ( يوجد لي قرط على لساني ), but I don't know if there's a difference in meaning between these two.

Anybody help me, please?

Miguel Tomás


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## Arabic_Police_999

عندي is used for the thing you have, and not necessarily with you right now or within your positions
لدى is used for the thing you have, and it's close from you or within your positions 
ل is used for the thing you own, or this thing belong to you


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## Psi-Lord

السلام عليكم!
This is, I believe, my very first post in the Arabic forum.

I’ve been studying Arabic for a while, and this week I’ve finally written my first original short text in it. I’m still absorbing the corrections I received, but one in particularly has brought me here.

Part of one of my paragraphs read something along these lines:

”هو متزوج وله ابنان صغيران. له قطة سيامية جميلة كذلك.“

What surprised me was that, although the first sentence was (apparently) okay, many of those who corrected my text changed the له of the second sentence to عنده‎, يملك or لديه.

So far, I’ve indeed only been taught to express possession with ل, no matter whether it involved people (siblings, children, friends etc.) or objects (car, house, books etc.). I tried looking up information on any exceptional cases in my resources, but couldn’t find anything; I did find something in _A Reference Grammar of Modern Standard Arabic_ (section 3.34) about عند being fundamental in spoken (dialectal?) Arabic when it comes to possession, and that such a role has crept into MSA, but that the more formal choices are indeed ل or perhaps لدى. That was it, though.

I was left wondering then – is there something inherent to the that particular sentence that might trigger a preference for another construction at all?

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]


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## Arabic_Police_999

Psi-Lord said:


> okay, many of those who corrected my text changed the له of the second sentence to عنده‎, يملك or لديه.
> 
> I was left wondering then – is there something inherent to the that particular sentence that might trigger a preference for another construction at all?





Arabic_Police_999 said:


> ل is used for the thing you own, or this thing *belong* to you


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## analeeh

I think لـ is used more commonly for slightly abstract relationships rather than straightforwardly possessive ones - 'I have two legs' or 'I have a sister' rather than 'I have a car' or 'I have a cat'. This is certainly true for colloquial dialects and I think is true of normal practice in MSA, too.


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