# Pronunciation: third tones in a row



## hilbert

Moderator's Note: Several threads have been merged to create this one.
hi everybody
I have a problem with the assimilation of tones, I dont find any regular. So for example these words:
he3n ha3o  is pronounced he2n ha3n

and xi3sho3u is pronounnced xi2sho3u

but what about wo3 bi3 ni3 xia3o ?

Is there any regular to this?


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## univerio

usually *wo3 bi2 ni2 xiao3* but *wo2 bi2 ni2 xiao3* works too

My impression is that before a 3rd tone, there is another 3rd tone, the first 3rd tone changes to 2nd. Usually you don't do this more than twice in succession. I might be wrong, though.


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## fall_ark

There's no fixed rule in it as far as I know...ahem, many people don't even know the "rule" I think, it's just easier to speak in that way.


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## samanthalee

In Singapore (and perhaps in the southern parts of China)， it is possible to ignore the rule altogether and say wo3 bi3 ni3 xiao3.

The "rule" is: in a successive string of 3rd tones within a phrase (or a word), the last 3rd tone remains unchanged while all preceding the last are changed to the 2nd tone. In the event that the word following this phrase(or word) is a single-character word of the 3rd tone (or a phrase that has its first character in 3rd tone), the last tone of this phrase(or word) is also changed to the 2nd tone.

For example, _I buy umbrella_ contains 3 words 我 wo3, 买 mai3 and 雨伞 yu3san3。
wo3 and mai3 are single-character words and yu3san3 is a 2-character word. So we change yu3san3 to yu2san3.
_ Buy umbrella_ hence becomes mai3 yu2san3. This is the simple part.
Next, is _I buy umbrella_ to be read as wo3 mai2 yu2san3 or wo2 mai3 yu2san3?
Remember that "In the event that the word [in this case mai3] following this phrase[in this case wo3] is a single-character word of the 3rd tone, the last tone of this phrase[wo3] is also changed to the 2nd tone."
Therefore, _I buy umbrella_ is wo2 mai3 yu2san3.

Back to your question of wo3 bi3 ni3 xiao3.

wo3 bi3 ni3 is a "phrase", a standard "X bi3 X" structure, so we'll read wo3 bi3 ni3 as wo2 bi2 ni3.
However, the word following this is xiao3, which is also a 3rd tone. So the last 3rd tone of wo2 bi2 ni3 cannot be kept. We'll thus have wo2 bi2 ni2 xiao3.

Hope the explanation is clear. Many native speakers are not aware of this assimilation as it comes naturally to them. Some dialects have more complicated assimilation of tones than Mandarin and thankfully Mandarin has done away with all except 3 instances of assimilations. ：D


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## hilbert

That´s it thank you samanthalee. So your Chinese are tolerant to this it´s reassuring ;-)


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## nasridine

My $0.02
1. The character "一" can have many changes of its tone. Originally it's pronounced as yī. 
Rule #1, if it's followed by a 4th-tone, 一 should be changed to 2nd tone. For example  一yí定dìng, 一yí切qiè
Rule #2, if 一 is in front of any character with 1st, 2nd or 3rd tone, it will become a 4th tone. 一yì张zhāng纸zhǐ, 一yì盆pén水shuǐ, 一yì首shǒu歌gē. Rule #2 only applies to the cases that "一" refers to quantity. Here is an example that conflicts with #2, 第dì一yī名míng. See, even though it's before a 2nd tone, it sticks to 1st tone.

2. Things can get almost as complicated when it comes to "不". It is supposed to be pronounced as bù 4th tone. However, it will be changed to 2nd tone when followed by 4th tone. say, 不bú会huì, 不bú对duì

Hope it'd help


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## glossika

I always say "wo3 bi2 ni2 xiao3" and not "wo2 bi2 ni2 xiao3"
I would say "wo2 mai3 yu2-san3", but I don't think I've ever had to say this. I would rather say: "wo3 yao4 mai3 yu2-san3" or "(xia4yu3-dehua4,) wo3 hui4 mai3 yu2-san3". I think it makes more sense to say this sentence if you're *selling*: wo3 mai4 yu2-san3, as it sounds like something you do as a profession.


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## kareno999

Hehe, try this one
我也想买把小雨伞
wo3 ye3 xiang3 mai3 ba3 xiao3 yu3 san3


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## glossika

I would say it as:

wo2 ye3 xiang2 mai3  ba5 xiao3 yu2-san3.

The Taiwanese-Mandarin that I learned to speak pronounces a lot of 3rd tones as very low dropping tones (21 contour), so they lack the rising half in the full 214 contour. In this example, I've written this tone as 輕聲 (5).


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## Dublabla

大家好~!

I'd like to know how to change the Chinese accent(声调)，when four 3声 appears in a row such as : 我也很好 (I'm fine too) 2323? 3232? I'm not sure~

谢谢


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## coconutpalm

There must be a rule or something, but I'm not a linguist.
As for your example, I'd vote for 2323.


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## Dublabla

I want to ask you whether you mean to say that '2323' format is frequently applied in Chinese daily conversation in that case.


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## coconutpalm

Yes, that's how we say it in daily life, as far as I know.


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## Dublabla

谢谢 COCONUTPALM~!
I found it very helpful~!


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## coconutpalm

You're welcome, Dublabla, although I think I'm unworthy of your thanks 
I searched the google by entering "汉语的变调", and the results are all about a book, which must be very helpful, but I think it's too complicated and professional for ordinary learners. Sorry for this!


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## Dublabla

没关系 You don't have to say 'sorry'.
Because, it really hit the spot. Thank you ^^


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## Kwunlam

Dublabla said:


> I'd like to know how to change the Chinese accent(声调)，when four 3声 appears in a row such as : 我也很好 (I'm fine too) 2323? 3232? I'm not sure~



We try to make the last one always "3".  So we better avoid ""3232".

 http://www3.ouk.edu.tw/mass/%BCs%BC...D%B5%BD%D2/%B2%C4%A4T%A4Q%A5%7C%C1%BF--IE.doc

For those who do not learn Chinese solely in Chinese:

1. For two character words, use "2 3"
 友好  23

2. For three Character words, use "223"
展覽館 223

3. For phrases with continuous "3", we break them down first:
請你|往北走
取|講演稿

But the document does not give concrete examples of how to pronounce. So I only give the tones according to my own judgment:
請你|往北走  2 3 | 2 2 3
取|講演稿    3 | 2 2 3
Please feel free to comment



kareno999 said:


> Hehe, try this one
> 我也想买把小雨伞
> wo3 ye3 xiang3 mai3 ba3 xiao3 yu3 san3



I would split it into this way
我也|想买把|小雨伞
2 3 | 2 2 3  | 2 2 3
or
我也|想买|把|小|雨伞
2 3 | 2 3|3  | 3| 2 3

compare:
我也|想买|(一)把|小|雨伞
2 3 | 2 3| (4) 3  | 3| 2 3


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## Boyar

Hello
I know very well that when _two_ or _three_ third tones come together, only the last one is said as a third (falling-rising) tone; the preceding syllables have to be said as second tones.

But ... what would be the rule when *four* third tones come in a row as in the phrase below:
我想请你们去我们家玩... (Wǒ xiǎng qǐng nǐmen qù...) ??

I guess the proper pronunciation should be either
A : Wó xiáng qíng nǐmen qù...
or
B : Wó xiǎng qíng nǐmen qù...

I wonder what would be the correct pronunciation in standard putonghua?


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## fxlle

wo2 xiang3 qing3 ni3 men2 qu4
Here qing3 can be also pronounced as qing2.


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## YangMuye

I will say “Wó xiáng qíng nǐmen qù”.
If you want to insert a short pause between two groups of words, it can also be
“Wó xiáng qíng/qǐng, nǐmen qù”
“Wó xiáng/xiǎng, qíng nǐmen qù”

我想买两把雨伞。
wo2 xiang2 mai2 liang2 bai2 yu2 san3
wo2 xiang2 mai2/3, liang2 bai2/3, yu2 san3

There are many exceptions, especially for words beginning with changed third tone.
给蒙古草原
gei3(can't be gei2) meng2 gu2 cao3 yuan2


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## SuperXW

The last one must be a 3rd tone. 
The rest of them, you can pronounce either the 2nd or 3rd tone, as long as you feel natural. 
Actually, the tone-changing rule is to make pronunciations easier, not to make them more confused.
Even native speakers don't know how to define their changed tones exactly. Many times it's hard to tell whether it's a 2nd tone or a 3rd one. It could be in between.


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## stellari

Interesting example. 
It really depends on which word you phonetically stress. If you stress qing, then qing tend be pronounced with a second tone, so the whole sentence would go:
wo2 xiang3 *Qing2 *ni3men5 ... (emphasizing 'inviting')
On the other hand, if you stress 'xiang', then xiang is more likely to have a second tone:
wo3 *Xiang2 *qing2 ni3men5 ... (emphasizing 'intention', and it is very likely to be followed by something like 'but my mother doesn't let me...')
In the second case, qing2 is neither a full second nor a third tone for me, but rather a very low tone that might go up just a little bit at the end.


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## xiaolijie

Once the question of "4 third tones in a row" is sorted, there will be questions of "3 third tones/ 5 third tones/ 6 third tones in a row...". 
So, it's not the best way to learn by memorising specific patterns, especially when each question itself induces variable valid patterns. 
What we need is a simple rule to learn and apply when we see clusters of third tones together. I'll have a think and get back on this


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## Boyar

Thank you all for so detailed and clear answers. I see that both variants are possible depending on the speaker's intentions. I think I will pick up the classical 2-2-2-3 variant as the base option; I will hopefully be able to fine tune my tones later on.


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## xiaolijie

I've found an earlier post where I stated a simple rule concerning the reading of multiple third tones in a row:


xiaolijie said:


> To learners of Chinese: if a string of characters has more than 2 third tones in a row, the patterns of sound sandhi may be different depending on how you break up the phrase and the tempo of your speech. In the case of 小理解, it can be pronounced as xiǎo/líjiě or, if you speak quickly without a break, xiáolíjiě.



That is to say: all the third tones but the last one in a breath group (ie, before a break or a pause) should become the second tones:

 你好！"níhǎo"
我很好: "wóhénhǎo" or if spoken slowly: "wǒ // hénhǎo"
我想请你们: "wóxiángqíngnǐmen" or if broken into 3 mini groups: "wǒ // xiángqǐng // nǐmen"
我想买两本书: "wóxiángmǎi // liángběnshū"; or "wǒ // xiángmǎi // liángběnshū"; or in a fast pace: "wóxiángmáiliángběnshū"
我想买两把雨伞: "wóxiángmǎi // liángbǎ // yúsǎn" (and many other possible patterns, depending on how fast you speak)

Note: the "//" represents a break or slight pause in the above examples.


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## Skatinginbc

I normally pronounce them like this: 
我2想3//请2你3们//去4我3们家1//玩2
我2想3//买2两2本3书1
我2想3//买2两2把3雨2伞3
给3//蒙2古2草3原2
你2好3. 
我2很2好3 or 我3很2好3
我3//很2想2你3.
你3//很2想2我3.
我2想3//你2很3想2我3.
我2想3//你2很2美3.
我2想3//你2很3美2好3.



Boyar said:


> when..._three_ third tones come together,  only the last one is said as a third (falling-rising) tone; the  preceding syllables have to be said as second tones.


I normally say 好3/导2演3, 好3/表2姐3.  要4买3/两2本3/书1.
To me, 小3/狗2眼3儿 and 小2狗2/眼3儿  mean differently. 
小3 (adjective) + 狗2眼3 (noun, as in “狗眼看人低”) = small "dog-eyes" .
小2狗3 (noun) "puppy" + 眼3 (noun) = 小2狗2眼3 eyes of a puppy.


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## piano0011

hey guys!

From my understanding, if you have two characters with the 3rd tone, the first character would become the second tone correct? For example: ni3 hao3 would become ni2 hao3 but what if you have a complex sentence like:

1) wo3 ke3yi3 qing3 ni chi1 wan3 fan4 ma? Can I take you out for dinner? would this become something like this?

wo3 ke2yi3 qing3 ni chi1 wan3fan4 ma? 

or

wo2 ke3yi3 qing3 ni chi wan fan ma?

thanks!


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## darren8221

To me it will be "wo3 ke2yi3 qing2 ni3 chi1 wan3fan4 ma?"

This really is a hard problem and it has no set rule. As long as you're comfortable it will be fine.


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## Skatinginbc

darren8221 said:


> To me it will be "wo3 ke2yi3 qing2 ni3 chi1 wan3fan4 ma?".


Any deviation from that would sound like having a strange accent to me.


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## SuperXW

piano0011 said:


> 1) wo3 ke3yi3 qing3 ni chi1 wan3 fan4 ma? Can I take you out for dinner? would this become something like this?
> 
> wo3 ke2yi3 qing3 ni chi1 wan3fan4 ma?
> 
> or
> 
> wo2 ke3yi3 qing3 ni chi wan fan ma?


I agree with others.
Suggestions:
1. Keep the third tone on relatively important key words. (wo3, ni3...)
2. For a two-character or three-character word, keep the third tone on the last character. (ke2yi3)

By the way, why do you always mark tones for only part of the characters? Looks quite random.


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## piano0011

Sorry guys. I should have marked all the tones so that it will be easier for you guys to read it. What about this sentence?

wo3 xiang3 qing3 ni3 kan4 dian4ying3 = I want to invite you to watch a movie?

would this become?

wo2 xiang3 qing2 ni3 kan4 dian4ying3?

I think that sounds flowing and have read in the previous comment that I would need to break it up... I guess the above sentence would emphasise ni3 as the third thone..

I also forgot to add to my previous post, for the following sentence: wo3 mai3 le hen3 duo1 dong1 xi = I bought a lot of stuff become

1) wo2 mai3 le hen3 duo1 dong1 xi? 

For this sentence: I bought two books = wo3 mai3 le liang3 ben3 shu1 would become

2) wo2 mai3 le liang2 ben3 shu1?


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## SuperXW

piano0011 said:


> I also forgot to add to my previous post, for the following sentence: wo3 mai3 le hen3 duo1 dong1 xi = I bought a lot of stuff become
> 
> 1) wo2 mai3 le hen3 duo1 dong1 xi?
> 
> For this sentence: I bought two books = wo3 mai3 le liang3 ben3 shu1 would become
> 
> 2) wo2 mai3 le liang2 ben3 shu1?


Correct!


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## piano0011

and for this sentence:

1) ni3 bi3 wo3 xiao3= You are younger than me?

would become:

ni2 bi3 wo2 xiao3?

and would

2) wo3 bi3 ni3 da4 liang3 sui4 = I am older than you by two years 

become

wo2 bi3 ni3 da4 liang3 sui4 ?


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## SuperXW

^
1) I would naturally say: ni3 bi2 wo2 xiao3, but the followings are also possible: 
ni2 bi3 wo2 xiao3
ni2 bi2 wo2 xiao3

2) wo2 bi2 ni3 da4
wo3 bi2 ni3 da4
are both ok.
wo2 bi3 ni3 da4 doesn't seem possible.
It's extremely hard to actually pronounce two 3rd tones together.

Anyway, don't struggle too much on this issue.


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## piano0011

I guess from my understanding that I should always try to just change the first character correct? for example, I was taught that it should be better to say

ni2 bi3 wo2 xiao3 as it would sound more natural?


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## Skatinginbc

ni3 bi2 wo2 xiao3 sounds more natural to my ears.


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## piano0011

I am confused here because I am just a beginner in learning chinese and according to my teacher or the rule is that if you have two characters with the third tone, the first one becomes the second? For example:

ni3 hao3 would become ni2hao but I read in the above post that there are several ways that one could change the pinyin but would appreciate if someone could give me some kind of a rule or to make the rule simpler to understand with complex sentences? thanks!


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## Skatinginbc

Rule of thumb:
33 ==> 23 (e.g., 老鼠 lao3-shu3 ==> lao2-shu3)
three or more 3rd tones in a row ==> You have to check if they can be parsed into smaller components.  For example:
小老鼠 = 小 + 老鼠 ==> xiao3 + lao2-shu3
老鼠好 = 老鼠 + 好 = lao2-shu3 + hao3 ==> lao2-shu2 + hao3 (rule: 33 ==> 23)
你比我小 = 你 + 比我 + 小 = ni3 + bi2-wo3 + xiao3 ==> ni3 + bi2-wo2 + xiao3 (rule: 33 ==> 23). 
我想死你(了) = 我 + 想死 + 你(了) = wo3 + xiang2-si3 + ni3-le ==> wo3 + xiang2-si2 + ni3-le (rule: 33 ==> 23). In fact, it would become totally unintelligible to me if you say wo2 xiang3 si2 ni3 le.


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## piano0011

Thanks for the guide.... how about if I were to say?

wo3 mei3tian shui4 de hen3 wan3 = I sleep late everyday? would this become?

wo2 mei3tian1 shui4 de hen2 wan3?

Also, for your above sentence, shouldn't "bi2" be "bi3"? It is the third tone and not the second. Could you then tell me how to pronounce this sentence below because I think you might have got it wrong....

你比我小 = 你 + 比我 + 小 = ni3 + bi3-wo3 + xiao3 ==> ni3 + bi2-wo2 + xiao3 (rule: 33 ==> 23).


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## Skatinginbc

I wasn't wrong.  You simply didn't get my point. 
你 ni3 + 比我 bi3-wo3 + 小 xiao3 ==> ni3 + bi2-wo3 + xiao3 ==> ni3 + bi2-wo2 + xiao3  
比我 is treated as a unit, so 比我 bi3-wo3 undergoes tone sandhi and changes into bi2-wo3.
Now we have a new input: 你 ni3 + 比我 bi2-wo3 + 小 xiao3, which contains a two-character 3rd-tone sequence "wo3 + xiao3".  So an additional sandhi occurs and results in the final output: ni3 + bi2-wo2 + xiao3.


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## piano0011

Thanks and for the following sentence:

Wo3 mei3tian shui4 de hen3 wan3

Becomes

Wo2 mei3tian1 shui4 de hen2 wan3?

I am still wondering, why did you change the bi3 to bi2 because it is the second character as in wo3 bi3 + wo3 xiao3? Perhaps I am thinking it in the wrong way


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## Skatinginbc

我 (subject) + 比你小 (predicate)
比你小 (predicate) = 比你 (prepositional phrase serving as an adverbial) + 小 (adjective).
我比你小 = subject (我) + predicate (比你 + 小)
Why do you insist that 我比你小 = 我比 + 你小 after I've already explained to you that 我比你小 = 我 + 比你 + 小?

Anyway, the way how a sentence is parsed also has a determining role in the application of tone sandhi.


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## piano0011

thanks... appreciate it!

So let me see if I understand this. It is important first to know the characters as to which they belong too first before changing the tone? For example in this sentence?

1) wo3 ke3yi3 qing3 ni3 chi1 wan3fan4 ma?

because ke3yi3 is grouped together, would this become

wo3 ke2yi3 qing2 ni3 chi1 wan3fan4 ma?


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## Skatinginbc

Yup, you got it.


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## SuperXW

Skatinginbc said:


> ni3 bi2 wo2 xiao3 sounds more natural to my ears.


It is more natural, but ni2 bi3 wo2 xiao3 is also possible.


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## Skatinginbc

SuperXW said:


> It is more natural, but ni2 bi3 wo2 xiao3 is also possible.


He just completed Sandhi 101.  Before he can familiarize himself with what he has just learned, I'm not interested in discussing Sandhi 102, which may further confuse him and encourage him to produce something unintelligible (say, 我wo2想xiang3死si2你ni3了).  Above all, as you seem to have admitted, the outcome that follows the rule of 101 is the most natural (and I would add "most logical") among all possible pronunciations.


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## piano0011

SuperXW said:


> It is more natural, but ni2 bi3 wo2 xiao3 is also possible.


Thanks for the explanation guys. Appreciate it! So far, what I have learnt is that if you have two characters with two 3rd tones in a row, then I should change the first character, I think I will stick to SuperXW comment because that seems easier for me to follow at the moment. In that case, would the following be correct?

1) ta1 you3 hen3 duo1 qian2 = he has a lot of money

would become

ta1 you2 hen3 duo1 qian2

2) wo3 mei3tian1 shui4 de hen3 hao3

would become

wo2 mei3tian1 shui4 de hen2 hao3


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## piano0011

I am still a bit unsure about this one:

1) wo3 mei3tian1 shui4 de hen3 hao3..

would I only change the hen3 hao3 part and keep the wo3 mei3tian1?

would this become

wo3 mei3tian1 shui4 de hen2 hao3


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