# Quod quidem in ecclesia patimur



## KsSp

Hello. 
Here is another sentence from Origen's Homilies on Luke, and I find it difficult. 
"Quod quidem in ecclesia patimur: plerique enim dum plus diligunt quam meremur, haec jactant et loquuntur, sermones nostros doctrinamque laudantes, quae conscientia nostra non recipit."
"Patimur" is one of the things that are confusing, since it has so many meanings (to suffer, to receive, etc.). The ending is -mur, which means it is "we" who are the object of the action, so it is unlikely that it means "to suffer". But first things first. Here is my take on it:
"As to those whom we allow into the church: the majority, still, love more than we deserve, those who praise and are eulogized, praise our sermons and doctrines, which our conscience (mind?) does not accept."
This does not make much sense. The most confusing things are "patimur" (judging from the context, it is not about those who are tortured in the church (it even sounds weird), but those whom we allow in), the combination of active and passive in "jactant et loquuntur", and why our conscience/mind cannot accept (approve of? comprehend?) that people praise doctrines. 
The context: this homily is about John the Baptist, Saint Paul, and the excessive love that people feel for them (as if they were equal to God).
Could you please comment on it? 
Thank you. 

P.S. I've read all the Homilies, and there are several sentences, the meaning of which remains elusive. There are about ten of them. How often am I allowed to ask for help? I do not want to violate any forum rules, hence the question. Thank you! Conquering Latin turned out to be very difficult.


----------



## bearded

Hello
My attempt (still bad English, just for the sake of understanding):

''Besides, what we suffer(or: have to endure) in the Church: the majority, while they love (us) more than we deserve, in praising our sermons and doctrine boast and talk about those (or: such) things that our conscience does not accept.''

Moderators will hopefully reply to your question concerning (possible) limits to the number of enquiries - (as far as I know, they shouldn't be more than five per day, otherwise it's 'flooding')


----------



## KsSp

bearded said:


> Hello
> My attempt (still bad English, just for the sake of understanding):
> 
> ''Besides, what we suffer(or: have to endure) in the Church: the majority, while they love (us) more than we deserve, in praising our sermons and doctrine boast and talk about those (or: such) things that our conscience does not accept.''
> 
> Moderators will hopefully reply to your question concerning (possible) limits to the number of enquiries - (as far as I know, they shouldn't be more than five per day, otherwise it's 'flooding')


Thank you, bearded!


----------



## bearded

You are welcome.


----------



## Scholiast

Greetings once more.

My understanding is this: 'What we experience in church [by which I think the author means 'among the congregation', 'among our worshippers', rather than 'in the building'] is that a good many of them, while they are more devoted to us than we deserve, make a boast of this and talk about it, praising our homilies and teaching—which our conscience cannot accept'.

A paraphrase may be more illuminating than an attempt at precise translation: 'some of our fellow-believers are more devoted to us personally than is fitting or appropriate, and vaunt this devotion in their discussion of our preaching and doctrine; and this is something which in conscience we don't feel we can accept.'

KsSp is quite right, that _loquuntur_ looks passive, but that is because, like _patior_ (whence _patimur_), it is a deponent verb, which has no active forms.

I hope this is reasonably clear.

Σ


----------



## bearded

Scholiast said:


> make a boast of this and talk about it,...which our conscience cannot accept


Just a few questions, Scholiast: in your opinion, what does 'haec' precisely refer to? And are 'haec' and 'quae' correlated with each other or not (in your_ übrigens_ splendid translation they don't seem to be:  did you translate this point a bit ''freely'' or is it just me that do not well comprehend..)? Thank you.


----------



## Scholiast

saluete de nouo, bearded amicique!

Fair question (bearded, # 6). To be candid, I wasn't 100% sure myself when I wrote my # 5, and I rather skated over them in my suggested translation and paraphrase.

My first impression was that _haec_ and _quae_ are not correlative pronouns, and rather that _haec_ refers to the general noisy enthusiasm of Origen's congregations for his and his colleagues' _sermones_ and _doctrina_, _quae_ to the entire phenomenon of this, which he finds inappropriate. But now I am not so sure. What I now would like to do is consult Origen's original Greek, and I am wondering therefore whether KsSp could give us a more precise reference, to help me track this down, i.e. which of his 39 extant _homilies_ on Luke this passage comes from. I shall be visiting my local University Library tomorrow (apart from Oxford and Cambridge, St Andrews is unusually well-equipped for Theological materials and sources), and my interest is piqued.

Σ


----------



## KsSp

Hello, Scholiast and bearded! I am sorry to have failed to answer earlier. The passage is from Homily 25 (in our Latin text, it is marked by letter C, at the end of it). Thank you for your help and interest in it.


----------

