# menestral



## palindrome

la dona menestral,en abundancia als mercats, a las botigues, servint als restuarants, menant dispeses o penitant a les perruqueries
I am wondering how menestral translates to English. I understood it to mean "artisan" workers but this does not apply in the context, are they "tradeswomen" or "service women" ? Any ideas on this word appreciated. I found the "mechanical arts" but that is not clear to me either.
Thank you


----------



## palindrome

for the moment I'm sticking with "tradeswomen"


----------



## ernest_

A very rare word, right enough. From the dictionary definition, I would say it means simply "someone who works", as opposed to being idle. I don't know what "mechanical arts" is supposed to mean either. The modern equivalent would probably be a "working class woman", although the whole concept of "working class" is already becoming a wee bit outdated. See what others have to say, but.


----------



## TraductoraPobleSec

ernest_ said:


> A very rare word, right enough. From the dictionary definition, I would say it means simply "someone who works", as opposed to being idle. I don't know what "mechanical arts" is supposed to mean either. The modern equivalent would probably be a "working class woman", although the whole concept of "working class" is already becoming a wee bit outdated. See what others have to say, but.


 
I do not think _menestral_ or _menestralia_ are rare words but *outdated*, as you point out with _working class_. 

Palindrome, where did you get the definition from? I am pretty certain it's not the opposite of _being idle,_ but of _bourgeois_ (now, if you guys want to add that being _bourgeois_ is equivalent to being idle... that is a personal opinion )

See what the other forum users have to say about it 

Have a great day all


----------



## palindrome

thank you for your comments which shed some light!
i had thought about working class, but then the text also talks about factory workers etc which i thought would be more "working class".
And, yes, it is also used in contrast to "bourgeois" and u think does to some extent denote women who worked as opposed to women who floated around their palaces and stately homes...
one definition i found says "skilled manual labour" however in the particular context i have given above this does not hold true, I think.
So unfortunately it comes up quite a lot in varying contexts. One friend insists the it is "artisans" but that to me implies craftspeople.


----------



## palindrome

for example, i have another context in which it is defined against "workers":
"un barri de menestrales i treballadores"
"working class and manual labourers"?
there is an interesting discussion in wikipoedia of "blue-collar" and "white-collar" workers. I wonder if i could use those terms to any effect...


----------



## TraductoraPobleSec

Hi, Palindrome!

I also have the feeling that _menestral_ and _menestralia_ were terms which referred to the class we mentioned in cities (mainly Barcelona). There were crafspeople everywhere at the time but I do not think of people in, let's say, la Ribera d'Ebre or l'Empordà as _menestrals_. _Menestral_ and _menestralia_ always make me think of Barcelona (and maybe Terrassa and Sabadell) in the late 19th century and the very beginning of the 20th century.

I wonder if the rest agree


----------



## ernest_

Have you seen the article on the Wikipedia?
It seems they were a very specific group of citizens, the menestrals. I doubt there's a direct translation because probably there were not menestrals as such (as a political institution) in other countries. It's like, "shop steward" how would you translate it? We don't have any word to say that, because we don't have shop stewards.


----------



## betulina

I don't know much about this term, but from what I read here and Ernest's link, I would say it is (it was) a class between the working class (for which I understand people working in factories, etc.) and the bourgeois. They could be workers with a trade or a craft (un _ofici_, not sure about the word in English) and at the end they become part of the bourgeois (the "little bourgeois"... la _petita burgesia_). 

Perhaps the modern equivalent could be "la classe mitjana"... although I'm not sure at all, it's just a thought.


----------



## TraductoraPobleSec

Hi guys,

just out of curiosity, what I wonder here is whether when you hear _menestralia_ it automatically makes you think of Barcelona. I find it a very "Barcelona-related" word. At least in the context of the "Principat". But of course this is a very personal perception...


----------



## betulina

Hi, TPS,

Athough I'm not that familiar with the term, yes, it makes me think of a rather big city, and here in Catalonia at that time Barcelona was nearly, if not only, the only one. So, yes. 

(Tinc la sensació que faig servir un anglès macarrònic... és un quant temps ara que no el faig servir gaire...  )


----------



## TraductoraPobleSec

Sempre m'havien explicat que la *Font del Gat* (al costat de "ca meva" ) era un punt de trobada de la menestralia i dels obrers, mentre que els burgesos, per al lleure, marxaven fora de la ciutat a les cases que tenien al camp o a la costa.

He trobat això: UnHortetAmontjuïc

Bona tarda tingueu


----------



## ernest_

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> just out of curiosity, what I wonder here is whether when you hear _menestralia_ it automatically makes you think of Barcelona.



No, it doesn't. It doesn't make me think of anything because this is the first time I hear this word.


----------



## ampurdan

Barcelona and El Vallès are not the only places where there's been industry in Catalonia in the turn of the century, I'd say, though they were indisputably the big regional pole.

Anyway, I have a feeling that precisely the "menestralia" were the people that did not work in the industry but little traders and dealers, artisans. They were people, as opposed to the proletariat, who owned their business and, as opposed to the big bourgeoisie, "menestral" women could not afford not working with their husbands in their businesses. I think Betulina has hit the nail on the head: "petit-bourgeois".

On a second thought, "petit-bourgeois" is not the word I would use to describe a bar manager, for instance...


----------



## ernest_

ampurdan said:


> Barcelona and El Vallès are not the only places where there's been industry in Catalonia in the turn of the century



But this word is much older, according to the GREC as old as the 14th century. At that time, the only "industry" in Catalonia were the thousands of little distilleries scattered all over the country, where _aiguardent_ was made in large quantities and then sold to the Dutch merchants who used to smuggle most of it into England.


----------



## ampurdan

ernest_ said:


> But this word is much older, according to the GREC as old as the 14th century. At that time, the only "industry" in Catalonia were the thousands of little distilleries scattered all over the country, where _aiguardent_ was made in large quantities and then sold to the Dutch merchants who used to smuggle most of it into England.


 
Precisely, precisely.

EDIT - I mean: what I've said about "industry" is just an answer to TPS, who has said that she associates this word to Barcelona and surroundings because there's were the industry was in the turn of the century.

BUT, I think that "menestralia" is not the "working class", as understood in that time (people who owed almost nothing) and is not a big bourgeois. For instance, I've heard my father say a couple times that the classical grassroots of ERC were the "menestralia", people who had their little business but not great revenue.


----------



## palindrome

well i think i'm getting a feel for this word. it has old connotations but of course as social realities have changed this word has been stretched to apply to them and ended up being confusing and sometimes contradictory. i do think the petit-bourgeois is a good term , somewhere between that and small business owners.


----------



## TraductoraPobleSec

ampurdan said:


> For instance, I've heard my father say a couple times that the classical grassroots of ERC were the "menestralia", people who had their little business but not great revenue.


 
Exactly! I can see that, too.

Do you guys know a song by Jaume Sisa called "Senyor botiguer"? That *senyor botiguer* is the typical _menestral _

Gràcia, for example, was a typical area of _menestrals_.


----------



## ampurdan

TraductoraPobleSec said:


> Gràcia, for example, was a typical area of _menestrals_.


 
Right! So was Figueres, for instance, perhaps in a lesser degree.


----------

