# Syllable division (two vowels)



## MPA

Hi, folks,

I have doubt about how to divide the syllables in Finnish when it has two vowels...

Joensuu: jo-en-su-u
alkoholiliike: al-ko-ho-li-li-i-ke
tulee: tu-le-e

Am I right?


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## Gavril

MPA said:


> Hi, folks,
> 
> I have doubt about how to divide the syllables in Finnish when it has two vowels...
> 
> Joensuu: jo-en-su-u
> alkoholiliike: al-ko-ho-li-li-i-ke
> tulee: tu-le-e
> 
> Am I right?



Hi MPA,

A succession of two identical vowels (as in l*ii*ke, tul*ee*, Joens*uu*) is normally considered a long vowel. For that reason, I think that _liike _would be divided as _lii-ke,_ _tulee_ as _tu-lee, _and _Joensuu _as _Jo-en-__suu._

I'm not absolutely sure about the _Joen- _in _Joensuu_, but I'm guessing that it's considered disyllabic (_Jo-en) _because it comes from earlier *_joken_ (the genitive of _joki _"river"), which clearly has two syllables rather than one.

There's definitely more to say about syllabification of vowel clusters in Finnish, but I don't know enough right now to give a good explanation. For example, I'm not completely sure how the vowel sequences in words like _kuiva _"dry", _tiukka _"tight", _tuoda _"bring" etc. are normally syllabified.


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## Hakro

MPA said:


> Joensuu: jo-en-su-u *jo-en-suu*
> alkoholiliike: al-ko-ho-li-li-i-ke *al-ko-ho-li-lii-ke*
> tulee: tu-le-e *tu-lee*
> 
> Am I right?


Sorry to say, you're wrong.

If you have two same vowels in a row, they always belong to the same syllable, unless there is a hyphen between them.

A classic example:
luutaakka – luu·taak·ka (a last of bones)
luuta-akka – luu·ta-ak·ka (a woman with a broom)


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## Gavril

Hakro said:


> A classic example:
> luutaakka – luu·taak·ka (a last of bones)



Hi Hakro,

Tarkoitatkohan "a load of bones"? Sana "last" kuulostaa ruotsilta tässä yhteydessä.


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## MPA

Gavril said:


> Hi MPA,
> 
> A succession of two identical vowels (as in l*ii*ke, tul*ee*, Joens*uu*) is normally considered a long vowel. For that reason, I think that _liike _would be divided as _lii-ke,_ _tulee_ as _tu-lee, _and _Joensuu _as _Jo-en-__suu._
> 
> I'm not absolutely sure about the _Joen- _in _Joensuu_, but I'm guessing that it's considered disyllabic (_Jo-en) _because it comes from earlier *_joken_ (the genitive of _joki _"river"), which clearly has two syllables rather than one.
> 
> There's definitely more to say about syllabification of vowel clusters in Finnish, but I don't know enough right now to give a good explanation. For example, I'm not completely sure how the vowel sequences in words like _kuiva _"dry", _tiukka _"tight", _tuoda _"bring" etc. are normally syllabified.


But _kuiva_, _tiukka_ and _tuoda_ are diphthongs; same way _Joensuu_ has a diphthong and not a triphthong.
In the case of _joken_, I see that as a motive to divede _jo_ from _en_: Jo-(k)en-suu.



Hakro said:


> Sorry to say, you're wrong.
> 
> If you have two same vowels in a row, they always belong to the same syllable, unless there is a hyphen between them.
> 
> A classic example:
> luutaakka – luu·taak·ka (a last of bones)
> luuta-akka – luu·ta-ak·ka (a woman with a broom)


Actually, I thank you for correct me, lol.

I based my opinion in the consonants division, as Hakro's example: luu-taak-ka.
Is there any explanation about why it happens to consonants and doesn't happen to vowels?


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## Hakro

Gavril said:


> I'm not absolutely sure about the _Joen- _in _Joensuu_, but I'm guessing that it's considered disyllabic (_Jo-en) _because it comes from earlier *_joken_ (the genitive of _joki _"river"), which clearly has two syllables rather than one. *Correct. 'oe' never is a diphtong in Finnish, it's always o*·*e*.
> 
> There's definitely more to say about syllabification of vowel clusters in Finnish, but I don't know enough right now to give a good explanation. For example, I'm not completely sure how the vowel sequences in words like _kuiva _"dry", _tiukka _"tight", _tuoda _"bring" etc. are normally syllabified. *These three are diphtongs. *


An important rule to remember is that only in the first syllable of a Finnish word there may be diphtongs like _eu, ou, uo, öy, yö,_ etc., but in later syllables only diphtongs ending with i _(ai, ei, oi, ui, äi, öi)_ are possible.

Note that this is the classical rule; today it's not so strict anymore.

For example _toteuttaa_:
Classical hyphenation: to·te·ut·taa
Modern possible hyphenation: to·teut·taa


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## Hakro

Gavril said:


> Hi Hakro,
> 
> Tarkoitatkohan "a load of bones"? Sana "last" kuulostaa ruotsilta tässä yhteydessä.


Olet oikeassa, Gavril. Häpeän syvästi ajattelemattomuuttani.


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## Hakro

MPA said:


> Is there any explanation about why it happens to consonants and doesn't happen to vowels?


Two similar vowels in a row mean that it's pronounced as a long vowel; they always belong to the same syllable.

Two similar consonats never belong to the same syllable.


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## MPA

Thanks, Gavril; Thanks, Hakro.


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## Hakro

MPA said:


> Joensuu: jo-en-su-u
> alkoholiliike: al-ko-ho-li-li-i-ke
> tulee: tu-le-e


Note that the name of the Finnish alcohol monopoly company "Alkoholiliike Oy" can also be divided:
Alkohol-I-like--Oh-why


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## MPA

Hakro said:


> Note that the name of the Finnish alcohol monopoly company "Alkoholiliike Oy" can also be divided:
> Alkohol-I-like--Oh-why


ROFL


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## Gavril

Hakro said:


> An important rule to remember is that only in the first syllable of a Finnish word there may be diphtongs like _eu, ou, uo, öy, yö,_ etc.,



Is it a general rule in Finnish that a diphthong can't be a combination of the sounds _a, e _or _o _with each other? (This would mean that _*ae*, *oa*, *eo* _etc. couldn't be viewed as diphthongs.)



> but in later syllables only diphtongs ending with i _(ai, ei, oi, ui, äi, öi)_ are possible.
> 
> Note that this is the classical rule; today it's not so strict anymore.
> 
> For example _toteuttaa_:
> Classical hyphenation: to·te·ut·taa
> Modern possible hyphenation: to·teut·taa



Just out of curiosity, what was the reasoning for saying that _ai/ei/_etc. have a different syllabification than _au/eu/_etc. in non-initial syllables?

Did it have to do with the fact that the *i*-diphthongs are extremely common in these syllables (particularly because of the plural morpheme _-i- _seen in _tal*oi*ssa, ik*ei*llä, _etc.), whereas the _*u*-_diphthongs are much less common?


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## DrWatson

Gavril said:


> Is it a general rule in Finnish that a diphthong can't be a combination of the sounds _a, e _or _o _with each other? (This would mean that _*ae*, *oa*, *eo* _etc. couldn't be viewed as diphthongs.)


Finnish only has three opening diphthongs, i.e. where the second vowel is more open than the first. They are _ie_, _uo_ and _yö_, which are historically long vowels (< _*ee_,_ *oo_, and _*öö_ respectively). In all other diphthongs the second element has to be a high vowel (_i, u, y_).


Gavril said:


> Just out of curiosity, what was the reasoning for saying that _ai/ei/_etc. have a different syllabification than _au/eu/_etc. in non-initial syllables?
> 
> Did it have to do with the fact that the *i*-diphthongs are extremely common in these syllables (particularly because of the plural morpheme _-i- _seen in _tal*oi*ssa, ik*ei*llä, _etc.), whereas the _*u*-_diphthongs are much less common?


I may have been simply an orthographical rule, but as Hakro said, now it is "allowed" to syllabificate as either _to.te.ut.taa_ or _to.teut.taa_.


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