# So dark was the night that we could not see the enemy approaching



## Lamb67

So dark was the night that we could not see the enemy approaching to attack the camp

Ita obscura lux erat ut possemus non videre hostem appropinquantem 
ad pugnandum castra

Is 'hostes appropinquantes' better here ? 
Comments please

thanks


----------



## Imber Ranae

Use the gerundive _castra pugnanda_ rather than the gerund + direct obj.

I'd also prefer _tam_ here instead of _ita_, but that may just be a matter of style.


----------



## Lamb67

' To attack the camp', is better with ad+ gerund.


----------



## Joca

Tam/ita obscura nox erat ut non possemus videre hostes appropinquantes pugnatum castra. 

This is the Supine, but I am not sure you can use it here.


----------



## DieuEtMonDroit

I see that you have used the imperfect subjunctive, _possemus_, after _ut_.

Isn't usually the indicative used after _ut_ meaning simply _that_, i.e _potebamus_?


----------



## Imber Ranae

Lamb67 said:


> ' To attack the camp', is better with ad+ gerund.



What has led you to believe this is so? In any case, it is not correct. After _ad_ or any other preposition that governs an accusative, the gerundive construction is almost invariably preferred over gerund + direct object. See any reference grammar under the section that deals with accusative use of the gerund and gerundive.


----------



## Imber Ranae

Joca said:


> Tam/ita obscura nox erat ut non possemus videre hostes appropinquantes pugnatum castra.
> 
> This is the Supine, but I am not sure you can use it here.



Good eye, Joca! I didn't even notice _lux_ for _nox_. The supine is a good suggestion as well, but it is not necessarily better than the gerundive here. 

Lamb67, _lux_ means "light". _Obscura lux_ would mean "dim/darkened light."


----------



## Imber Ranae

DieuEtMonDroit said:


> I see that you have used the imperfect subjunctive, _possemus_, after _ut_.
> 
> Isn't usually the indicative used after _ut_ meaning simply _that_, i.e _potebamus_?



No, the subjunctive is necessary for result clauses. _Ut_ takes an indicative verb when it means "as", "when", "how", etc.


----------



## Lamb67

castra pugnanda  may be a gerundive, but how to fit it into the sentence for' to the attack the camp'?
 Unless ' causa+genitive with a repetition of -arum is used, but that will be no good obviousely.


----------



## Imber Ranae

I may have unnecessarily confused you before. When I wrote only _castra pugnanda_ my intention was for you to substitute it for _pugnandum castra_, leaving _ad_ in place. I should have written _ad castra pugnanda_. Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, while you can't have a direct object with an accusative gerund, you _may_ use one with a genitive gerund. This is often done to avoid the repetitious _-orum_ and _-arum_ endings, as well as to differentiate masculine/feminine adjectives and pronouns from their neuter counterparts. So you could have used _castra pugnandi causa_.


Edit: Actually, I just realized that _pugno_ isn't the correct verb. That just means "to fight", and it can only take an internal/cognate accusative direct object like _certamen_ of _bellum_, not a noun like _castra_. You need to use the verb _appugno_ "attack, assault" instead, so it should be _ad castra appugnanda_.


----------



## relativamente

My version
Tam obscura nox erat ut non potuimus animadvertere hostes appropinquantes ut aggrederentur castra.
Ut with sunjunctive is final clause, so I use it in "ut aggrederentur" since it was the purpose of the ennemies but not in the first clause since it was not the purpose of the darkness that we could not see the ennemies.We must use the indicative potuimus and not the subjunctive possimus.


----------



## Imber Ranae

relativamente said:


> My version
> Tam obscura nox erat ut non potuimus animadvertere hostes appropinquantes ut aggrederentur castra.
> Ut with sunjunctive is final clause, so I use it in "ut aggrederentur" since it was the purpose of the ennemies but not in the first clause since it was not the purpose of the darkness that we could not see the ennemies.We must use the indicative potuimus and not the subjunctive possimus.



Result/consecutive clauses must take the subjunctive as well. The indicative would be incorrect. Purpose clauses and result clauses are easily distinguished by context, such as words like _ita_, _tam_, _talis/-e_, _is/ea/id_ which always trigger a result clause before _ut_ + subjunctive.


----------

