# Slavic forum: excessive politeness?



## cyanista

Setwale_Charm said:


> Excessive politeness is always better that the lack of it.



This quote is from the thread about the usage of вы in Russian. It prompted me to finally ask a question about the usage of the formal "you" in the Slavic forum. Most Russian speakers here adress each other by the formal "you", which I am fairly uncomfortable with. I like the situation in the German forum where everyone is encouraged to use the informal "du". To me, it makes the tone of the discussions friendly and cordial. I have the impression that the numerous Spanish speakers in this forum normally use the informal "you" as well. After all, communicating via Internet is not a terribly formal situation and the usual distinctions as age or position don't count here. Still, most of my Russian-speaking colleagues seem to think that the informal "you" is somehow disrespectful and impolite. As a result, I always try to avoid a direct address because вы (or even Вы) sounds awkward and ceremonious to me - and ты is taboo because others might think me rude or condescending. 

I'd be very interested to hear the opinions of both Russian speakers and other Slavs. What address do you prefer, what feels more natural to use in this forum?


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## Maroseika

In my opinion, Russian Вы is not the highest form of politeness, it's just from another sphere, being very formal and actually is appropriate in the official correspondence only.
But Russian вы is quite neutral for the people not acquainted personally, it's a way to show your respect to your interlocutor "in advance". 
Tы is too much familiar; it is still possible in the internet forums, but I'm sure it should take time to come from вы to ты, and I don't think one will overcome this way towards anybody.
I guess Russian langauge has a lot of different instruments to shade your appeal to the person, and эй,ты - ты - вы - Вы - О, Вы! are only very coarse ranges of possible ways.


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## Athaulf

cyanista said:


> This quote is from the thread about the usage of вы in Russian. It prompted me to finally ask a question about the usage of the formal "you" in the Slavic forum. Most Russian speakers here adress each other by the formal "you", which I am fairly uncomfortable with. I like the situation in the German forum where everyone is encouraged to use the informal "du". To me, it makes the tone of the discussions friendly and cordial. [...] I'd be very interested to hear the opinions of both Russian speakers and other Slavs. What address do you prefer, what feels more natural to use in this forum?



In Croatian and Serbian Internet forums, the custom is to use the informal address "ti" towards everyone; however, in those countries, "vi" is nowadays considered as a more formal type of address than "вы" in Russia. 

Unlike your experience, I often feel uncomfortable with this _lack of politeness_ in Croatian forums. I'm in my late twenties, and in real life, I would never use "ti" to address anyone more than a few years my senior except a few close relatives; thus, sometimes I feel pretty stupid thinking that I'm using "ti" to address someone to whom I would never think of saying that in real life. (And frankly, I would also be very irritated if I heard some random kid calling me "ti.")

Generally, my opinion is that there should exist formal means of address for people who aren't personal friends or relatives, because this makes the communication easier in practice. It is nice to have a way to communicate with a stranger or someone with whom you have only a business relationship so that you're sure that you're not coming off as offensive, condescending, etc.


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## Anatoli

I know some Russian forums where informal ты is more common than вы but some people take offence. We shouldn't bunch cultures together. Russian culture is not the same as French, German or Polish. Speaking in Russian, I prefer being polite to unknown people, the same you would do when talking directly to someone you don't know.

I think Polish people prefer use "ty", since "wy" is not used as a polite form but Pan, Pani, Państwo - "Co Pan wie?" - "Что вы знаете?", which sound much more formal than Russian "вы". So, referring to "Slavic Forums" may be incorrect.

It is OK to use "ты" if someone suggests it or you feel you can use it towards a person without sounding too casual.


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## Jana337

Thanks for this thread, cyanista!  I was planning to start a similar one.

I am undecided... I find it mildly amusing when I see that Вы is used by our most active members who interact on a daily basis and are approximately of the same age. While I agree with Athaulf's real-life perceptions, I have no problem whatsoever to behave differently with people in the forums. At least with those whom I see regularly. I admit that I try to avoid a direct address with Czechs and Slovaks that aren't a part of the core of this community.

The inhibitions are practically non-existent in other languages, even with people who are several decades older than me. It is somehow grating and unfriendly to see Sie in the German forum and Lei in the Italian one. I encourage members who use them to switch.

Jana


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## niko

Hello,

I'm not sure that a the opinion of a French is really welcome here, especially since i'm not particularly an active member (my skills unluckily prevent me to be so  ), but anyway, here is my point of view : when I read a "_vy_" I immediately transpose it in a french context, no matter how different it can be from our "_vous_". And frankly speaking, I do not like our "_vous_"  
I understand that some people may be offended by the use of "_ty_", and that's why I'd never dare using it. But I do think that there are other ways to show some courtesy, just a "_vous_" sounds quite... artificial 
The care one takes to compose a post or an answer is a far better way to show one's respect and politeness in my opinion! 
As I said, I will stick to "_vy_" for it seems to be the most convenient for everyone... But you shouldn't hesitate to call me "_ty_" !


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## Maroseika

niko said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm not sure that a the opinion of a French is really welcome here, especially since i'm not particularly an active member (my skills unluckily prevent me to be so  ), but anyway, here is my point of view : when I read a "_vy_" I immediately transpose it in a french context, no matter how different it can be from our "_vous_". And frankly speaking, I do not like our "_vous_"
> I understand that some people may be offended by the use of "_ty_", and that's why I'd never dare using it. But I do think that there are other ways to show some courtesy, just a "_vous_" sounds quite... artificial
> The care one takes to compose a post or an answer is a far better way to show one's respect and politeness in my opinion!
> As I said, I will stick to "_vy_" for it seems to be the most convenient for everyone... But you shouldn't hesitate to call me "_ty_" !


I use very simple criterion of what is appropriated at the forums and what is not, and this refers not only to the tutoyer: one cannot do anything there what he would not do when communication with somebody face to face.
I don't know what the rench vous exactly means, but I'm know for sure I'll never call anybody ты in Russian save of numerous though very special and definite situations, to which internet forums do not refer.
And what's about telcon: can it be in France that calling somebody you don't know personally, you say him tu from the very first conversation, or even dealing with him for the long time but without being aquainted in person?
I know in Spanish it's quite OK, but in French?


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## niko

Maroseika said:


> And what's about telcon: can it be in France that calling somebody you don't know personally, you say him tu from the very first conversation, or even dealing with him for the long time but without being aquainted in person?
> I know in Spanish it's quite OK, but in French?



I'd like to add that my post is just a personal point of view, it  probably does not even reflect the opinion of most of the French 
A matter of age, maybe ! 
Whatever, I'd call anyone "tu" from the very first conversation, and most of the time without even asking first if I'm allowed to. And if I wasn't to speak first, and was called "vous", then "On peut se tutoyer ?" would be my first question 
Two exceptions : old people, and people like customer's service, etc. But I bet it's obvious!
It's not offending at all... I call my boss "tu", it doesn't mean I'd dare to say him "Hi lad!", you see ?


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## Maroseika

niko said:


> I call my boss "tu", it doesn't mean I'd dare to say him "Hi lad!", you see ?


I don't see, but of course I believe you.
In Russian it's nothing of this kind. 
As for addressing to the boss, particularly, Russian provides different levels of вы: 
for example,  "вы plus diminutive name" is not the same as   "вы plus full name" or "вы plus name plus patronimic name", or "Mr/Mrs (господин/госпожа) plus surname" (yet rather rare variant however).
Ты also can be used with full or diminutive name or with name plus patronimic name (obsolescent variant).
Ты plus surname was widely spread 100 years ago among educated people, but now is used only by the adults addressing to the children (at school, army, etc.).
The more variants, the thinner nuances we can express in the conservation, the better I guess.


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## Lemminkäinen

This aspect of languages is one of the hardest for me - not only are there all these nuances, but there's also individual variation between what's acceptable and not.

Considering we have nothing of this sort in Norwegian (well, we have a formal pronoun like _vy_, but it's archaic and never used now), I can only say that I hope I don't offend anyone with my use of pronouns


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## Etcetera

Jana337 said:


> I am undecided... I find it mildly amusing when I see that Вы is used by our most active members who interact on a daily basis and are approximately of the same age.


Oh, you must mean me and Crescent!

Personally, I agree with Setwale that excessive politeness is better than the lack of it. I was taught from an early age to address people with Вы/вы, unless we agree to address each other with ты. Well, there are exceptions. But they're very few. I am perfectly comfortable with addressing people with Вы/вы (the actual choice between these two pronouns depends on the person's age).
At the same time, I wouldn't be offended by a person's addressing me with ты if the general tone of the discussion is cordial and friendly and/or I know the person for some time. But if a total stranger would address me with ты, I'll be very surprised, to say the least of it.


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## Etcetera

Maroseika said:


> I don't see, but of course I believe you.
> In Russian it's nothing of this kind.
> As for addressing to the boss, particularly, Russian provides different levels of вы:[...]


It depends on the company and the age of the workers, actually.
I address my director (she's 5 years my senior) with ты, and she addresses me in the same way. 
My colleagues also use ты when talking to each other. We're all quite young.


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## niko

Maroseika said:


> I don't see, but of course I believe you.
> In Russian it's nothing of this kind.
> As for addressing to the boss, particularly, Russian provides different levels of вы:
> for example,  "вы plus diminutive name" is not the same as   "вы plus full name" or "вы plus name plus patronimic name", or "Mr/Mrs (господин/госпожа) plus surname" (yet rather rare variant however).
> Ты also can be used with full or diminutive name or with name plus patronimic name (obsolescent variant).
> Ты plus surname was widely spread 100 years ago among educated people, but now is used only by the adults addressing to the children (at school, army, etc.).
> The more variants, the thinner nuances we can express in the conversation, the better I guess.



This is a good thing to know, thank you for this explanation 
I didn't know there were so many different nuances, and I admit it is not something I usually care much about, for I think one's gonna be judged on acts and not on the way one speaks ! I also admit that, when I do not know what's the correct use, I definately prefer "vy" and the most formal way to express oneself, for it's probably the better way not to harm anyone (who said paradoxical ? ) I've been speaking that way in Spain and Russia, and I do think I'll keep on acting that way here in the Slavic forum. 
Anyway, the question is interesting, and I step in just to point out that I (personally, and it involves only my own personal person  ) don't really care how I'm called, if anyone was to address me anytime


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## Etcetera

niko said:


> I also admit that, when I do not know what's the correct use, I definately prefer "vy" and the most formal way to express oneself, for it's probably the better way not to harm anyone (who said paradoxical ? )


That's right. Most people would get offended to hear a stranger addressing them with ты, but I've never met anyone who would feel insulted if someone address them with Вы/вы.


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## palomnik

This is a frustrating area particularly for English speakers, who aren't used to using this as a daily feature of their language. The temptation is to assume that since so many languages have a formal/informal dichotomy in personal address, that the rules must be the same for all of them, more or less.

They're definitely not. One recent book on Spanish usage for English speakers says, for example, that "if you would address somebody by their first name in English, then you would use _tu _with them in Spanish." I have found, somewhat to my surprise, that this rule is quite true, at least in Latin America. But the same is definitely NOT true in French or Russian.


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## cyanista

Maroseika said:


> As for addressing to the boss, particularly, Russian provides different levels of вы:
> for example,  "вы plus diminutive name" is not the same as   "вы plus full name" or "вы plus name plus patronimic name", or "Mr/Mrs (господин/госпожа) plus surname" (yet rather rare variant however).
> Ты also can be used with full or diminutive name or with name plus patronimic name (obsolescent variant).
> Ты plus surname was widely spread 100 years ago among educated people, but now is used only by the adults addressing to the children (at school, army, etc.).
> The more variants, the thinner nuances we can express in the conservation, the better I guess.


I believe Russians (actually all peoples of the ex-Soviet Union) historically have a very well-developed sense of hierarchy and are well aware of their own place in it. All of those nuances and unwritten rules serve to define and maintain a certain position in the society. Marked formality may also be the result of our mistrust towards strangers and the desire to keep them at arm's length. It's easy to see how that also has historical roots. This may not be the whole explanation, but I do think it's an important part of it.


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## Thomas1

To tell the truth we don't have much choice in Polish. As far as it is concerned we use either _ty_ or _Pan/Pani/Państwo/etc. Ty _is a casual way of addresing people but using the second option seems to me rather overformal in a forum, especially to people you know for some time; we would never use _wy_ as it is badly associated by everyone who knows a little bit of Polish history. I didn't have many occasions to comminucate in Polish in this forum but in others I use (and other memebers too) _ty_, unless we "feel" the member should be addressed as _Pan/Pani._ When I am unsure which form I should use I try to avoid direct addresing. 
When I write in the French forum I generally use _vous_ with everyone unless I and the member I am talking to know each other and we tacitly agreed on using _tu._



Etcetera said:


> That's right. Most people would get offended to hear a stranger addressing them with ты, but I've never met anyone who would feel insulted if someone address them with Вы/вы.


I think in reality it is a little bit different since you see people and you feel when you can address them casually or formally. Anyway, I agree that with you on the politeness being better thant the lack of it.

Tom


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## Maroseika

cyanista said:


> I believe Russians (actually all peoples of the ex-Soviet Union) historically have a very well-developed sense of hierarchy and are well aware of their own place in it. All of those nuances and unwritten rules serve to define and maintain a certain position in the society. Marked formality may also be the result of our mistrust towards strangers and the desire to keep them at arm's length. It's easy to see how that also has historical roots. This may not be the whole explanation, but I do think it's an important part of it.


In other words, grammar controls social relations?
I dare say any soicety has a rich arsenal of instruments, letting to establish very complicated hierarchy, inherent to modern being anywhere. 
But since the grammars differ, exact instruments do differ, too.
Absense of thee in modern English doesn't mean that a white-collar and a red-neck using "you" when talking with each other, do not realize who they are and what exact place in the social system each of them occupies.


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## cyanista

Maroseika said:


> In other words, grammar controls social relations?



 I rather meant that usage mirrors social relations.


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## Anatoli

Things change and what is true today may not be true later. A lot of things are relaxed in Russia compared to what it was before. Some companies, especially in Moscow don't use patronymics. I have mixed feelings about whether I'd prefer the speaking and addressing styles to change to be in line with the West or remain unchanged. There's probably equal number of people who prefer to use ты right from the start or people who always address other with вы (at least at the beginning) and prefer to be addressed that way.


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## Seana

Hello
Polish is a much more formal language than English
If you would like to know about polite or impolite forms I would try to explain you a bit how to manage to be polite in Polish . 


*in formal relations and everyday communicatin*
*Pan* meant a _mister_ or a _Sir_ or *Pani *meant a _madam_ or a _lady_ is needed to use to show proper respect to every single person, above eighteen years old no matter of his social position (even lowest status or social state).
*Panna*, designating an unmarried woman and corresponding to Miss nowadays sounds bit old-fashioned.

*everyday communication* 
*Pan/Pani* become less strict in the everyday speech --
between young people use --thanks to English influences 
*correspondence*
*Drogi Panie/Pani *or *Szanowny Panie/Pani *literally meaning _Respected Sir/Madam _which is both respectful and neutral and would be translated as "Dear Sir/Madam." 
If you are familiar with a person you write a letter to, *you* that you use to address this person has to be spelled with a capital letter. 


_*business correspondence* _

*Szanowny Panie/Szanowna Pani *

*addressing an unknown group of people and a married couple*

*Państwo* this word is always used preceded by _respected_*.* It is a common form of addressing formally a group of people. The closest translation here would be "_Ladies and gentlemen_" when it comes to addressing a group of people but "Mr. and Mrs." when addressing a married couple.

There is a tendency to stop using old-fashioned *wy* - with or without the capital letter --is an equivalent of the plural "you" in English.
Now it is used very rarely by the modern society but it could be used in the countrysite rather for eldery people. 
*Wy* can sound really nasty when pronounced in the military fashion.

This word *Wy* associates with communism in Poland .

A bit of advice, don't use it at all! 

Greetings


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## Maroseika

Seana said:


> This word *Wy* associates with communism in Poland .


 
But how came that? Russian/Soviet grammar infuence?


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## Etcetera

Thomas1 said:


> I think in reality it is a little bit different since you see people and you feel when you can address them casually or formally.


Not really, Tom. 
Well, if I want to ask some question to a girl I meet in the corridor of the Faculty of Phililogy, where I am currently studying, I would use ты. If it's a student of another faculty, I would, most probably, use вы. Of course, it also depends on where the conversation takes place. In the canteen the situation is less "formal" than in the library.
If I address a stranger in the street, I would use вы, of course. Unless it's a child. Children are always addressed with ты.


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## Crescent

Etcetera said:


> Oh, you must mean me and Crescent!



Hello to everyone. 

Oh, dear, why do I feel like I am, above all, to who this thread is addressed to? 
Well, from my point of view, I think that setting a strict rule on this, such as: Everyone must adress each other as Вы or ты would be a little bit too demanding, and moreover in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with just letting each one of us 'do our own thing' - in the sense that, if someone wishes to adress someone else as Вы or ты - it is their own free choice to do so. 
After reading through most of the posts in this thread I realised something crucial: I seem to have a totally and completely different understanding and perspective of the usage of Вы compared to everyone else in this thread.. 
You see, personally, to me, Вы doesn't have to be ''formal'' or ''distant'', it is simply an expression of politeness and respect towards our dear foreros. 

And you know what else: in old 19th century novels and movies, and in real life too, I suppose (since I wasn't _quite_ born yet at the time ), the closest of people use Вы to adress each other! No really, even family use amongst themselves!  (Or, to be precise: children use it when adressing parents)

But honestly, I was reading Антон Чехов (as some of you may know ) and there, the main character adresses his father with  Вы all the time! 

And not only that - but even spouses and lovers use Вы in Chekov's times! Really, it's true! In a letter that a wife was writing to her husband, she wrote:
"_То, что я встретила и узнала Вас, было небесным лучом, озарившим моё существование.._"
So you see - I never really associate this usage of Вы as too formal or cold and distant. In fact, I'm always rather impressed when I see people using Вы to each other, and especially to me (because I'm not really old enough for it to be appropriate I think), and then it always gives me a reason to smile kindly, and say that I appreciate it, but there's absolutely no need.. 
And if the other person stills insists on it, _cela me fait chaud au couer_ even more! 

Now, I know you may argue that this was in the 19th century, and is a thing of the past, having nothing to do with the way people communicate nowadays, but.. I don't know, I can't explain it very well, but...doesn't it just make you feel so...high-class, and elitist (I hope that's the right word.. I meant to say: in a high society)..and almost like you're at Natasha Rostova's ball, talking and socialising with a gathering of well-educated, intelligent, polite people..? 

But can I personally offer my sincerest apologies to people whom my usage of Bы has somehow offened or made uncomfortable.. (P.S. Sorry, cyanista..)


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## Hutschi

One other aspect of politeness; politeness is not only in addressing a person, but also in the style of answering. Usually, you will get a kind of mirror relation. 

The relation of politeness lies also in kind of answer, whether you stay on topic and others.

Outside of a language forum, it may be very impolite to correct the spelling in an answer, while it is wished in a language forum.

In a multi-cultural environment like a language forum with very different degrees of language knowledge and cultural knowledge, you should use the assumption, that the other one wants to be polite in an acceptable degree. 

Best regards
and 
Всего хорошего

Hutschi


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## Crescent

Hutschi said:


> One other aspect of politeness; politeness is not only in addressing a person, but also in the style of answering. Usually, you will get a kind of mirror relation.
> 
> The relation of politeness lies also in the kind of answer, whether you stay on topic and others.
> 
> Outside of a language forum, it may be very* im*polite to correct the spelling in an answer, while it is *wished* in a language forum.
> 
> In a multi-cultural environment like a language forum with very different degrees of language knowledge and cultural knowledge, you should use the assumption, that the other one wants to be polite in an acceptable degree.
> 
> Best regards
> and
> Всего хорошего
> 
> Hutschi


Sorry, Hutschi, for the little correction to your English, but judging from your post, I don't think that you would mind terribly.. 

I have to say that I completely agree with you, though! I belive that the usage of - _Вы_ will never make up for impoliteness, if the rest of the language the answer to a particular post is written in consists of constant insults and swear words.

In a way, I also think that Вы suits better in the style that I write in. I mean, can you imagine all my moutains of gratitude and constant apologies with the use of ты?


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## mcibor

Crescent said:


> Sorry, Hutschi, for the little correction to your English, but judging from your post, I don't think that you would mind terribly..
> 
> I have to say that I completely agree with you, though! I believe  that the usage of - _Вы_ will never make up for impoliteness, if the rest of the language the answer to a particular post is written in consists of constant insults and swear words.
> 
> In a way, I also think that Вы suits better in the style that I write in. I mean, can you imagine all my moutains of gratitude and constant apologies with the use of ты?





Maroseika said:


> Originally Posted by *Seana*
> 
> 
> This word *Wy* associates with communism in Poland .
> But how came that? Russian/Soviet grammar infuence?



She meant the word *Wy* meaning you plural.

In Polish we generally don't use I/you/he/she/it/we/you/they
we use verb endings for that.

Moreover adding to Seana's thread I would add, that the most common way to address group of people on the forum is to use verbs in second person, plural:

_Czy macie jakieś uwagi o uprzejmości?_ Do you have any ideas on politeness

However omit word Wy, as it was used by Communist Party as well as military. I'm not sure if it was taken from Russian grammar, but in Polish can be used to emphasize - only You can save mankind, etc.

Also very unpolite is to use 3rd person in talking:

Niech powie, co sądzi... //I can't find any possible translation to English
Although
Niech *Pani* powie, co *Pani* sądzi... is polite and formal

Correct me if you think I am wrong
Michal


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## Thomas1

Maroseika said:


> But how came that? Russian/Soviet grammar infuence?


 
The thing is that we used _wy_ as well as you do now but it was a long time ago (I remember my great grand mother told me she had used _wy_ when addressing her (grand)parents), I don’t hear it now, but you can still come across it in literature dealing with reality in Poland from before a few centuries (cf. Sienkiewicz or Reymont, I can still remember: _a bo wam tu źle;_ from the screeing of _Chłopi_ by the later author). 
When the communists ruled our country they applied _wy_ when addressing citizens (or _obywatelu_—vocative of citizen). I don’t know if this was Russian/Soviet influence but it is quite possible; another explanation could be that they resumed the old form (I would tend to opt for the former since Polish communists were under the significant influence of Soviet ones). They didn’t use _Pan/Pani/etc._, which were commonly accepted and used. This way _wy_ became associated with the communists, and if you used it now everyone would automatically associate it with them. It is now mainly used disparagingly. 


Tom


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## Thomas1

Etcetera said:


> Not really, Tom.
> Well, if I want to ask some question to a girl I meet in the corridor of the Faculty of Phililogy, where I am currently studying, I would use ты. If it's a student of another faculty, I would, most probably, use вы. Of course, it also depends on where the conversation takes place. In the canteen the situation is less "formal" than in the library.
> If I address a stranger in the street, I would use вы, of course. Unless it's a child. Children are always addressed with ты.


Well, is there any contradiction to what I said? I mean what you wrote, Anna.  You address everyone in the forum virtual reality using _вы_ but this is not the case outside the Internet as you can judge that from what/who you see, plus many other factors. Or did I lose your thread somewhere?
 
Tom


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## Maroseika

Thomas1 said:


> They didn’t use _Pan/Pani/etc._, which were commonly accepted and used. This way _wy_ became associated with the communists, and if you used it now everyone would automatically associate it with them.
> Tom


I guess that's the reason! Pan/Pani is the same like russian господин, quite impossible in the communist state. We have simply shifted from господин to гражданин and товарищ (and now sufferring from the absense of adequate way to call somebody in the street, addressing "young man" and "girl"to the person of  nearly any age), but you in Poland had to change grammar, in fact!
However, maybe reanimating of vy was not the worst idea: just imagine if they decided simply creplace Pan with towarzysz: prosu towarzysza!


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## Thomas1

Maroseika said:


> I guess that's the reason! Pan/Pani is the same like russian господин, quite impossible in the communist state. We have simply shifted from господин to гражданин and товарищ (and now sufferring from the absense of adequate way to call somebody in the street, addressing "young man" and "girl"to the person of nearly any age), but you in Poland had to change grammar, in fact!
> However, maybe reanimating of vy was not the worst idea: just imagine if they decided simply creplace Pan with towarzysz: prosu towarzysza!


Oh, they did use _towarzysz_ too. I don’t remember well these times as I am now in my twenties, but I think it was used to call the members of the communistic party (PZPR) it is another badly associated form of address, perhaps, even more than _wy_. They used _towarzyszu _(vocative), btw, and always with the verb in plural.
Could you please elaborate on the change of grammar, I think I might know what you have in mind but I’m not sure, though.
Did you shift from _господин_ to others because the communists used it or am I on the wrong track? Judging from what I heard in my country it would be _товарищ_ but you never know… 

Tom


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## Seana

Maroseika said:


> But how came that? Russian/Soviet grammar infuence?


 
*Wy* was used as a polite form in Polish language for ages (likely as Russian I suppose). It showed proper respest for person, especially the elders and even now it is possible to hear it when is addressed elderly people but rarely in the countrysite This term being considered as an insult is almost discarded by a connotation with discredited Communist party members that used to say Towarzyszu/Towarzyszko meaning comrade just with the second person *Wy *... or *Wy* Towarzysze .


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## Maroseika

Thomas1 said:


> Could you please elaborate on the change of grammar, I think I might know what you have in mind but I’m not sure, though.


I meant that before the communists one used 3rd person for addressing, and communists forced people to use 2nd person. Or I am wrong and товарищ could be used with the 3rd person, too?



Thomas1 said:


> Did you shift from _господин_ to others because the communists used it or am I on the wrong track? Judging from what I heard in my country it would be _товарищ_ but you never know…


I meant we have shifted from господин after 1917, and used гражданин/товарищ till late 80th. Nowadyas гражданин is mostly used by the police addressing to the people, товарищ - by the communists and господин - by all others. In the correspondence and when adding the name, there is no problem. But there is a problem when you are to address somebody without name (in the street, office, etc) - one you don't know. Господин/госпожа in this case sounds awfully.


----------



## Maroseika

Seana said:


> *Wy* was used as a polite form in Polish language for ages (likely as Russian I suppose).


As far as I know, since not earlier than 18th century.


----------



## Etcetera

Thomas1 said:


> Well, is there any contradiction to what I said? I mean what you wrote, Anna.  You address everyone in the forum virtual reality using _вы_ but this is not the case outside the Internet as you can judge that from what/who you see, plus many other factors. Or did I lose your thread somewhere?
> 
> Tom


For me, there's very little difference between virtual in "real" reality in this aspect. 
I have a LJ. I have a lot of friends there, and I make new friends quite often. Of course, I usually address a new acquaitance there with вы or even Вы, although LJ is a pretty informal community. Most people address me in the same way, and only a few would say, "Oh, why are you using вы? It sounds so awfully formal to me!" Well, no problem to me.
I *always* use вы when addressing strangers and people with whom we haven't yet agreed to use ты. Вы/вы doesn't sounds too formal to me; for me, using вы shows the person's good manners and respect towards others. 
It doesn't mean that if a pesron uses ты all the time, I would automatically consider them rude and bad-mannered. My judgement will also depend on the person's tone and other factors.


----------



## Brian P

Dear Polish friends, how would I address two or more people whom I would address individually as _ty_, for example my children? Would I say _Państwo_ or _wy_?


----------



## Thomas1

Brian P said:


> Dear Polish friends, how would I address two or more people whom I would address individually as _ty_, for example my children? Would I say _Państwo_ or _wy_?


Hello Brian,

Definitely _wy._ It is important to mention that the *use of wy is very much natural in plural*; we do use it in this number--no worries about any assiciations here. The usage about which we said is associated with the communistic reign is when one uses it in singular, and in some cases even in plural but then it is clear from the context how the person uses it and what connotations it brings about.

If you were writing an invitation for a wedding to someone you call using _ty_ then _Szanowni Państwo_ (if they are your children you could use _Drogie _Dzieci) may be used but this kind of situations are pretty much formal and you use them on special, add very rare, ocassions. 


Tom


----------



## Thomas1

Maroseika said:


> I meant that before the communists one used 3rd person for addressing, and communists forced people to use 2nd person. Or I am wrong and товарищ could be used with the 3rd person, too?
> 
> 
> 
> I meant we have shifted from господин after 1917, and used гражданин/товарищ till late 80th. Nowadyas гражданин is mostly used by the police addressing to the people, товарищ - by the communists and господин - by all others. In the correspondence and when adding the name, there is no problem. But there is a problem when you are to address somebody without name (in the street, office, etc) - one you don't know. Господин/госпожа in this case sounds awfully.


Thanks for the answers and question, Maroseika.
_Towarzysz _when used as a means of address was used with the second person plural verb. I don’t know if it was used in this function before the commune times (I’d be negative since I can’t remember it used this way in the literature, but perhaps there are some who did—I’d be interested to know if it really took place). As far as I know it was always used with a verb in the second person plural.
Now, in other contexts, note that this word is used really rarely, it keeps its third person singular verb, as in:
_Przemawia towarzysz Gierek._


Tom

Edit: I’ve just asked my grand-mother (she’s over eighty) whether she remembers if Polish people used _towarzysz_ before the communistic times, and she says they didn’t, she also says that it came into _popular_ use from Russia with the beginning of the new political system in Poland (late 40s early 50s of the last century). So, now I’m wondering if we at all used this word (in the meaning in question) before and whether it’s simply a rusicizm, which made its way into Polish with the new political system. Did you use _товарищ_ as a means of address before the communistic times too?
So how would you actually say:
_Excuse me Sir, what time is it?_
In Polish it would be:
_Przepraszam pana, która jest godzina?_
In Serbian it is:
_Извините, господине, колико је часова?_
I know you can say something more or less along the lines:
_Скажите пожалуйста__,__ который час?_
I conclude that _Господин__, __который __час__?_ would not rather be used, would it?

It is curious when you say that господин is fine when used with names, titles(?), and in correspondence there’s no problem, and when you use it as a means of address it goes clunk.
I wonder how it is with the rest of Slavic languages.


----------



## Thomas1

Etcetera said:


> For me, there's very little difference between virtual in "real" reality in this aspect.
> I have a LJ. I have a lot of friends there, and I make new friends quite often. Of course, I usually address a new acquaitance there with вы or even Вы, although LJ is a pretty informal community. Most people address me in the same way, and only a few would say, "Oh, why are you using вы? It sounds so awfully formal to me!" Well, no problem to me.
> I *always* use вы when addressing strangers and people with whom we haven't yet agreed to use ты. Вы/вы doesn't sounds too formal to me; for me, using вы shows the person's good manners and respect towards others.
> It doesn't mean that if a pesron uses ты all the time, I would automatically consider them rude and bad-mannered. My judgement will also depend on the person's tone and other factors.


I also think that the usage of, say, the formal forms is a sign of one's good maners, and I also use them addressing a stranger. What's LJ, please? Nevertheless, I think I wouldn't use _Pan/Pani_ to a 12 years old child outside the Internet, does _вы _apply to kids (in singular ) too? On the Internet, in most cases you don't know whom you address (especially when you do so for the first time). Anyway, it seems that the usage of the formal forms is rather a personal trait in many cases.




			
				Jana337 said:
			
		

> I am undecided... I find it mildly amusing when I see that Вы is used by our most active members who interact on a daily basis and are approximately of the same age. While I agree with Athaulf's real-life perceptions, I have no problem whatsoever to behave differently with people in the forums. At least with those whom I see regularly. I admit that I try to avoid a direct address with Czechs and Slovaks that aren't a part of the core of this community.


How does the usage of polite forms look like in Czech? Do you use _wy/Sir/etc._ as well? If you had to use a direct address in a forum which one would you pick, Jana?

Tom


----------



## Etcetera

Thomas1 said:


> What's LJ, please?


Try googling it.



> On the Internet, in most cases you don't know whom you address (especially when you do so for the first time). Anyway, it seems that the usage of the formal forms is rather a personal trait in many cases.


Yes, of course. 
You know, quite a lot of forums allow you to see the age of the members (if they have included this information in their profiles). But still, I would almost certainly use вы (not Вы, though).


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## BG native

There was in english un old phrase "thou art".It was changed long ago (I think it was right) because all the people are equal, but in some society some people are more equal then another.By my mind that's why somewhere still exist words like this.


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## Brian P

BG native said:


> There was in english un old phrase "thou art".It was changed long ago (I think it was right) because all the people are equal, but in some society some people are more equal then another.By my mind that's why somewhere still exist words like this.


 
You are right български роден.  The familiar form "thou" and its plural "ye" were in use until about 300 years ago.  In fact Shakespeare used these forms.  They are now used only in the King James Bible and in Anglican hymns.  For example, "thou havest", "thou art".  

There is a thread on this at http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1080&highlight=ye


----------



## Anatoli

BG native said:


> There was in english un old phrase "thou art".It was changed long ago (I think it was right) because all the people are equal, but in some society some people are more equal then another.By my mind that's why somewhere still exist words like this.



Although politeness levels make distinctions and show attitudes perhaps, they are a beautiful part of languages, IMHO. Japanese and Korean have been heavily influenced by English but they still have politeness levels and that makes the languages interesting. For the same matter making gender distinction in the language is interesting.


----------



## Maja

Etcetera said:


> Well, if I want to ask some question to a girl I meet in  the corridor of the Faculty of Philology, where I am currently studying, I would  use ты. If it's a student of another faculty, I would, most probably, use вы. Of  course, it also depends on where the conversation takes place. In the canteen  the situation is less "formal" than in the library.
> If I address a stranger  in the street, I would use вы, of course. Unless it's a child. Children are  always addressed with ты.


I wouldn't use "vi"  to address younger person on the street. In conversation with any person who is  older then me (say middle-aged, whether it is a neighbor, stranger, professor,  my boyfriend's parent...) I always use "vi".  As to the net, I find  it acceptable to use "ti". But since almost all of discussions are in English,  there is no telling if smo is being formal or not (unless stated obvious in the  post with usage of Sir/Madam etc.).


Thomas1 said:


> It is curious when you say that  господин is fine when used with names, titles(?), and in correspondence there’s  no problem, and when you use it as a means of address it goes  clunk.
> I wonder how it is with the rest of Slavic  languages.


"Gospodin" is  quite common address in Serbian, as you said in your example "Izvinite, gospodine,  koliko je sati?". "Gospodin/gospođa" replaced communist address "drug/drugarica", and for  that I am grateful!!! 


BG native said:


> There was in english un old phrase "thou art".It was changed long ago (I think it was right) because all the people are equal, but in some society some people are more equal then another.By my mind that's why somewhere still exist words like this.


I respectfully disagree. Maybe that  was the case (if we want to talk about etymology) long time ago when class  differences were very distinct and vast and many of the countries were  monarchies. But nowadays it is simply a mater of respect. If I use "vi" when  talking to people older then me, I don't necessarily think them superior to me but I was  just brought up that way.


----------



## Etcetera

Maja said:


> I wouldn't use "vi" to address younger person on the street.


So, you would address a 25-years-old with "ti"?


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## Maja

Etcetera said:


> So, you would address a 25-years-old with "ti"?


Well, you can never tell exactly how old smo is, but if I see a younger  person (with walkman/iPod, backpack and trainers), I would probable use "ti".  
"Izvini, da li znaš koliko je sati" or "Izvini, da li znaš gde je ta i ta  ulica"... 
It is very uncommon, in Serbia, for young people to address each other  formally and use "vi". When a fellow student addresses you with "vi"  (like "Koleginice, kako ste?" or "Gospođice, kako ste danas?"), it is more of  an emphasize or a joke then serious talk. After that "introducing phrase",  he/she will probably continue with more familiar ton and "ti". 

I always  flinch (and feel weird) when kids (friends of my brother's children) use "vi"  when talking to me and calling me "teta". 

At least these are all my impressions and opinions. We  should wait for Nataša's (and my other countrymen's) take on things!


----------



## Etcetera

How interesting. Things are really different here, however similar our sultures may seem.
In Russia, it would be considered rude to address a young person with ты, even if it's clear that you're older.


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## SCOM

Really it may be proper, but being 20, I can't stand it when someone adresses me in the formal you in Russian.  I'm not that old.


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## Crescent

SCOM said:


> Really it may be proper, but being 20, I can't stand it when someone adresses me in the formal you in Russian. I'm not that old.



I suppose it is all a matter of personal opinion of course, but what you have to remember, is that the other person might not know your age - they might simply think that you are a mature, grown up adult, and therefor address you as ''Вы''. Another thing to remember is that this isn't just done to ''old'' people - this is also a way to show respect for somebody, so instead of thinking of it as you interlocuter thinks you're old - think of it in the way that he likes and respects you.


----------



## SCOM

Crescent said:


> I suppose it is all a matter of personal opinion of course, but what you have to remember, is that the other person might not know your age - they might simply think that you are a mature, grown up adult, and therefor address you as ''Вы''. Another thing to remember is that this isn't just done to ''old'' people - this is also a way to show respect for somebody, so instead of thinking of it as you interlocuter thinks you're old - think of it in the way that he likes and respects you.


 
I know I'm changing subject but I look younger than 20, so I doubt that's the case. I think that's just protocol. I saw some Russian show not too long ago and this dude my age was talked to in the formal you manner by the host and he asked to be talked to in the more casual you.  So there are others like me.


----------



## Crescent

SCOM said:


> I know I'm changing subject but I look younger than 20, so I doubt that's the case. I think that's just protocol. I saw some Russian show not too long ago and this dude my age was talked to in the formal you manner by the host and he asked to be talked to in the more casual you. So there are others like me.



I'm sure there are. But the fact is that this use of Вы to young people (as long as they do not look like very young children) is very common in informal environments. I mean, sure - if this was between friends, in a pub or a club, then that would be seen as slightly odd. But since this is a TV show - people are expected to be polite to each other and show the right way for things to be done.


----------



## Etcetera

SCOM said:


> I know I'm changing subject but I look younger than 20, so I doubt that's the case. I think that's just protocol. I saw some Russian show not too long ago and this dude my age was talked to in the formal you manner by the host and he asked to be talked to in the more casual you.  So there are others like me.


What's the problem, then? You can always ask your vis-a-vis to address you with ты. Most people would gladly agree. 
I address my friends with ты evem when they're some 15 or 20 years older than myself. But we have agreed long ago to use ты when addressing each other. 
I look younger than my 20s, but still I get startled when a stranger шт Moscow address me with ты. Something unthinkable of in St. Petersburg.


----------



## Brian P

Etcetera said:


> What's the problem, then? You can always ask your vis-a-vis to address you with ты. Most people would gladly agree.


 
Пожалуйста, дорогие товарищи, всегда говорите мне ‘ты’


----------



## Etcetera

Brian P said:


> Пожалуйста, дорогие товарищи, всегда говорите мне ‘ты’


Как и мне, кстати. Мы с вами знакомы уже давно и достаточно хорошо.


----------



## Maroseika

Brian P said:


> Etcetera said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the problem, then? You can always ask your vis-a-vis to address you with ты. Most people would gladly agree.
> quote]
> 
> Пожалуйста, дорогие товарищи, всегда говорите мне ‘ты’
> 
> 
> 
> Если "ты", то только товарищ.
> Товарищ, ты уже выучил русский язык? Нет? Тогда - за работу, товарищ.
> Будут трудности - товарищи помогут. Оплошаешь - товарищи спросят со всей строгостью.
> Ну, а если не товарищ, то мне милее "вы".
Click to expand...


----------



## Thomas1

Etcetera said:


> How interesting. Things are really different here, however similar our sultures may seem.
> In Russia, it would be considered rude to address a young person with ты, even if it's clear that you're older.





Crescent said:


> I'm sure there are. But the fact is that this use of Вы to young people (as long as they do not look like very young children) is very common in informal environments. I mean, sure - if this was between friends, in a pub or a club, then that would be seen as slightly odd. But since this is a TV show - people are expected to be polite to each other and show the right way for things to be done.


Indeed interesting.  Just to make things clear, so, even if you’re in a student club/disco where you simply chill out and you’d want to chat up another student, who you don’t know, using ты would still be considered rude? Or would it be plausible in such situation?

Tom


----------



## Anatoli

Thomas1 said:


> Indeed interesting.  Just to make things clear, so, even if you’re in a student club/disco where you simply chill out and you’d want to chat up another student, who you don’t know, using ты would still be considered rude? Or would it be plausible in such situation?
> 
> Tom



Even in this situation there is no definite answer! Yes and no! _Generally _students use ты when talking to each other. Teachers _generally_ use вы when talking to students (Uni, high school), even if they know them for a long time and even if they are much younger than them (the reverse is almost always true).


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, if you use ты in informal environments, would you switch to вы in formal environments, or would you still use ты? In the German language, this is sometimes a problem and there is no general solution. Many keep using "Du" but some switch to "Sie".


----------



## Etcetera

Anatoli said:


> Even in this situation there is no definite answer! Yes and no! _Generally _students use ты when talking to each other. Teachers _generally_ use вы when talking to students (Uni, high school), even if they know them for a long time and even if they are much younger than them (the reverse is almost always true).


Teachers in school always use ты when addressing their pupils - even if these pupils are taller and wear mustaches.
University teachers use вы, even if they're younger than their students.
My our students (almost all of them are older) only use вы when addressing me.


----------



## Anatoli

Etcetera said:


> Teachers in school always use ты when addressing their pupils - even if these pupils are taller and wear mustaches.
> ...


I beg to disagree, Anna, at least that was the case with me and my wife. My wife used to be a teacher and she and other teachers had this practice with year 8 and higher.  It was not with 100% of teachers and not 100% of times but generally. You may have a different experience, it just shows there is no rule for it.


----------



## Crescent

Anatoli said:


> I beg to disagree, Anna, at least that was the case with me and my wife. My wife used to be a teacher and she and other teachers had this practice with year 8 and higher.  It was not with 100% of teachers and not 100% of times but generally. You may have a different experience, it just shows there is no rule for it.



I musta admit that I am double surprised: firstly, I have never heard a lower school teacher (from about classes 1 to 9 or 10, certainly) address a student as ''Вы'' - and if I have, it was only in a sarcastic and mocking way that they did so.
e.g. Дмитрий! Вы _опять_ изволили явиться на урок десять минут после того, как прозвинел звонок! Вмсето того, что бы распахнуть дверь классной комнаты толкнув её ногой, дернуть Анастасию Петровну за волосы, Вы бы лучше тихо, и без лишнего отвлечения заняли своего место.. 

Of course, I don't really remember that from my school days in Ukraine - it was just an example.  (quite a funny one, you must admit )

The other thing which surprised me was that teachers/profesors use Вы when addressing students at university!  Is that, perhaps, only in some very high-class universities, or is it true for every university in Russia/Ukraine? 
I honestly didn't know that... I think I've been away from home too long.

P.S. Do they ever shout at students at Uni?


----------



## Anatoli

Crescent said:


> I musta admit that I am double surprised: firstly, I have never heard a lower school teacher (from about classes 1 to 9 or 10, certainly) address a student as ''Вы'' - and if I have, it was only in a sarcastic and mocking way that they did so.
> e.g. Дмитрий! Вы _опять_ изволили явиться на урок десять минут после того, как прозвинел звонок! Вмсето того, что бы распахнуть дверь классной комнаты толкнув её ногой, дернуть Анастасию Петровну за волосы, Вы бы лучше тихо, и без лишнего отвлечения заняли своего место..
> 
> Of course, I don't really remember that from my school days in Ukraine - it was just an example.  (quite a funny one, you must admit )
> 
> The other thing which surprised me was that teachers/profesors use Вы when addressing students at university!  Is that, perhaps, only in some very high-class universities, or is it true for every university in Russia/Ukraine?
> I honestly didn't know that... I think I've been away from home too long.
> 
> P.S. Do they ever shout at students at Uni?



I must be a dinosaur here - I am not even 40 yet but things must have changed. By the way I wen to school in different cities in South Russia, no difference. Teachers did yell at schoolkids sometimes and do slip into informal "ты" but they _usually_ used "вы" and we liked it. I went to regular schools, no different from any school in the ex-USSR. I am not happy if it's no longer the case.

Teachers at Uni who yell at students are rare (again, if things haven't changed  ). Where I studied teachers would seriously jeopardise their career if they behaved like that.


----------



## Maja

Etcetera said:


> Teachers in school always use ты when addressing their pupils - even if these pupils are taller and wear mustaches.
> University teachers use вы, even if they're younger than their students.


Same in Serbia.  Primary and secondary teachers /  professors usually use "ti".
University professors and assistants use formal  you (vi), and usually address students with "kolega / koleginice", then last  name.


----------



## Athaulf

Maja said:


> Same in Serbia.  Primary and secondary teachers /  professors usually use "ti".
> University professors and assistants use formal  you (vi), and usually address students with "kolega / koleginice", then last  name.



In Croatia and Bosnia too. It's a really weird feeling when you start with the university at 18 or 19 and suddenly all those awe-inspiring profs old enough to be your parents or even grandparents are calling you "vi." 

However, if you establish some kind of a closer collaboration with a professor (e.g. your thesis supervisor) and you get to know each other relatively well, you'll often get to an asymmetrical relationship where you'll be called "ti" but speak "vi" in return. There is however nothing condescending there, because such an asymmetry is normal when there is a significant difference in age between people who know each other relatively well (except close relatives), regardless of whether there is also a difference in power and authority.

On a related note, I've also always found it a bit funny that my parents address their parents-in-law using "vi," whereas I've always called all my grandparents "ti."


----------



## Maja

Athaulf said:


> On a related note, I've also always found it a bit funny that my parents address their parents-in-law using "vi," whereas I've always called all my grandparents "ti."


Exactly! Same in my family!!! Weird, hah?


----------



## Anatoli

Maja said:


> Exactly! Same in my family!!! Weird, hah?


And in mine too, although we are Russian  Grandchidren usually call both parents and grandparents "ты" (ty) but it's not unusual in Russian families that people address their parents-in-laws with "вы" (vy).


----------



## Etcetera

_This and the subsequent three posts were moved from here._



Q-cumber said:


> PS Note: Normally it is OK to say "ты" in anonymous Internet conversations.


Is it indeed? Most people whom I know _normally _use вы.


----------



## Q-cumber

Etcetera said:


> Is it indeed? Most people whom I know _normally _use вы.



Well, it depends, of course. But normally, if a general atmosphere on a forum is relaxing and friendly enough, users address each other "ты" (and take it easy). In my opinion, Internet conversations differ a lot from these in real life. In fact, in Internet we talk with some fantoms, not with real persons. Thus formal rules of conversation aren't completely applicable here (which doesn't mean ruddness or impoliteness are acceptable).


----------



## Maroseika

Q-cumber said:


> In fact, in Internet we talk with some fantoms, not with real persons. Thus formal rules of conversation aren't completely applicable here (which doesn't mean ruddness or impoliteness are acceptable).


I don't think these are "formal rules". 
I cannot imagine how one can tutear anybody he doesn't know personally, and as far as I could notice, same "imaginative" problems have many other users of the forums in Russia.
In fact, people in the Internet are not fantoms, they are real ones and I don't see any reason to treat them other way than we use to do in the "real" life. Unless one wants to seem other than he is...


----------



## Q-cumber

Maroseika said:


> I don't think these are "formal rules".
> I cannot imagine how one can tutear anybody he doesn't know personally, and as far as I could notice, same "imaginative" problems have many other users of the forums in Russia.
> In fact, people in the Internet are not fantoms, they are real ones and I don't see any reason to treat them other way than we use to do in the "real" life. Unless one wants to seem other than he is...


Frankly, I wouldn't like to open a discussion about this topic, because it is too big and complicated, and doesn't fit this tread well. Just few remarks and I'll quit: Users of an Internet forum aren't equal to real people. They are hidden behind nicknames, avatars, etc. Fantoms are more liberated, they  act differently, "look" differently, sometimes even their genders differ from originals. Also an internet conversation itself applies its own particulars and limitations. 
Wanna example? You just entered this topic without saluting another humble fantoms!  I am sure you'd never join a "real" conversation like this. Yet in Internet it is natural. And the last: I didn't mean we should forget about any politeness  in the Web and say "ты" to everyone. What I wanted to say was that the Internet in more democratic and less formalistic zone than so-called "real world". And stranger's "ты" doesn't sound rude or impolite at all ...at least, in my humble opinion.  
When I (as moderator) am asked  by a stranger : "Ты бы не мог мне помочь?", I absolutely don't care about "ты" and just help. In "the real world" I would be probably a bit offended by such an address.


----------



## beclija

Hello,

I am returning to the question of reciprocity, which has been implicitly raised but never really discussed in this thread. One of the things about using "vi" and "ti" in Croatian and Serbian that I found most difficult to grasp is that it is quite usual for collegues of different age even regardless of position (let's say, 30 and 50) that the younger one uses consistently "vi" and the older one "ti". This is something that wouldn't work in German. If someone who may be much older uses "du" to a younger adult, it is, depending on context, either patronizing and insulting or a tacit invitation to use "du" as well (in case of doubt, assume the second). If the younger person does not respond with "du", it would be appropriate for the older person to either switch back to "Sie" as well or explicitly invite the other to use "du". As far as I have understood from the reactions of the Russian members, Russian also requires this kind of reciprocity, is that correct? And what about the other languages?


----------



## Etcetera

beclija said:


> As far as I have understood from the reactions of the Russian members, Russian also requires this kind of reciprocity, is that correct? And what about the other languages?


Yes, it is so in Russian. A younger person would address an oldr colleague with Вы, even if the latter use ты when speaking to them. 
I, personally, prefer it when both use Вы.


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## Nanon

I also observed this reciprocity in my professional context. For instance, I have a Russian colleague (not a subordinate) who also became a friend of mine. Same level, same title, just that I am older than she is and we don't work together every day, so she would not feel comfortable using ты. We just use our names and we are on kissing terms, but we are on Вы terms too. With that same degree of friendliness, we would probably have agreed on switching to "tu" long ago in French, but in Russian Вы just feels more adequate in this situation.

Frankly, I don't think this cultural use of Вы makes this Slavic forum over-formal. I post in other forums too and I see as many smilies and passionate dialogues and probably jokes here as anywhere else. Which makes it all the more enjoyable, too .

What I noticed is that not only the way we address each other, but also the attitude towards the "standard" (which does not necessarily mean "formal") use of language may slightly differ from one forum to another. I try to adjust to the usage of each forum as much as my proficiency level enables me to, the same way I try to adjust to cultural usage when I am in a different country. But isn't this slightly off-topic ?!


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## Starosel

I would use Вы when speaking to an adult with whom I have not agreed to use ты; ты is fine for children and possibly people my age (I'm still young), but in general it's best to stay on the safe side and use Вы. It's a matter of what is socially acceptable; ты is a sign of familiarity and using it in the wrong context is "being familiar." On the other hand, Вы is not being formal so much as accepting the lack of familiarity in a given relationship; people can work together for years and never progress to ты; a fifty year old co-worker of mine uses Вы when speaking to me though he is thirty years my senior. This can be a difficult concept for English speakers, not only because of the all-encompassing _you_, but also due to the idea of universal equality, which sometimes suggests that any sign of formality implies a lack of equality. In terms of this, I can only explain Вы as the universal pronoun applied to everyone except people who, in a certain sense, have been elevated to ты through the closeness of your relations. Of course, there is also the formal Вы – for example, in some families the children call their grandparents Вы, but I think that’s fairly unusual.


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## Kolan

Maroseika said:


> IAnd what's about telcon: can it be in France that calling somebody you don't know personally, you say him tu from the very first conversation, or even dealing with him for the long time but without being aquainted in person?
> I know in Spanish it's quite OK, but in French?


In French-speaking Canada, especially, in Quebec, _vous_ is less employed, than _toi_. It's interesting, because in the mainly English-speaking country, _toi_ suggests for a some kind of fraternity within the French-speaking minority. In Quebec francophone universities professors and students very rarely use _vous_, regardless of age or social status. Practically everywhere it's OK to start a conversation with someone, whom you do not know at ll, for example, asking the directions, in 2nd person singular. It is easier to pronounce and build the phrase this way. If you hear someone talking _vous_ in Montreal, then it should be a Canadian from another province, an old-shaped conversation, or a French person (from France, which you can easily tell by the accent).


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