# Words in Romance languages with Latin etymon loquor/loquī



## clevermizo

Hello all -

I should preface this by saying that I've only dabbled in Latin. However, I'm curious if any of the Romance languages have simple words whose reflex is the deponent Latin verb to speak _loquor/loquī_. Is this completely obsolete? I know that Vulgar Latin formations like _fabulāre _and _parabolāre_ have dominated most Romance languages that I can think of (as discussed in this thread about Portuguese _falar_) with the meaning of "to speak". 

I was trying to think of individual words the other day but I really couldn't (in Spanish, that is). I looked up Spanish _loco_ for example, but that has an Arabic origin. 

Can anyone else think of any Romance words deriving from the _loqu-_ root? I'm looking mostly for "simple" words because clearly higher register words exist (like _elocuencia_ in Spanish). Higher register words were probably borrowings from Latin, so _elocuencia_ is directly from Lat. _eloquentia_ and not derived in Spanish natively from _loqu-_.

Thanks.


----------



## miguel89

I found this in an old Etymological Dictionary (link):


> 5122. *loquela *„Beredsamkeit”.  [Venez., bellun., vicent. _okela_; vicent. _okela de la gola_, bellun. _okela_, veron. _lokela, lukela_ „Zäpfchen im Halse” AGIItal. XVI, 373].





> bellun. = Mdart von Belluno.
> vicent. = vicentinisch
> venez. = venezianisch
> veron. = veronesisch


However, I couldn't confirm it with other sources.


----------



## Outsider

clevermizo said:


> I should preface this by saying that I've only dabbled in Latin. However, I'm curious if any of the Romance languages have simple words whose reflex is the deponent Latin verb to speak _loquor/loquī_. Is this completely obsolete? I know that Vulgar Latin formations like _fabulāre _and _parabolāre_ have dominated most Romance languages that I can think of (as discussed in this thread about Portuguese _falar_) with the meaning of "to speak".


I can think of a couple in Portuguese (_eloquência_, _locutor_, _locução_, _loquaz_, _ventríloquo_...), but all of these are clearly cultisms. There may well be no direct descendants of _loquor/loquī_.


----------



## XiaoRoel

Los derivados de _*loquela*_ (M. L. 5122) en dialectos italianos, citados por Miguel89, son los _únicos_ derivados _tradicionales_ de esta familia de _loquor_ en lenguas romances. En las demás lenguas romances, especialmente en las modalidades literarias, son muy abundantes los cultismos tomados de esta familia de palabras latina.


----------



## Maroseika

Locuacidad, loquace?


----------



## XiaoRoel

Maroseika said:


> Locuacidad, loquace?


Son _*cultismos*_, no palabras tradicionales transmitidas sin solución de continuidad del latín a los romances.


----------



## berndf

Maroseika said:


> Locuacidad, loquace?


These are two of the modern era creations from classical Latin which Outsider mentioned and not indigenous words. In French, _loquace is_ attested since the 18th century only. It should not be much older in Spanish.


----------



## robbie_SWE

Hi! 

Could the Romanian _*loc*_ ("place", from Latin _lǒcus_) be related? There is also a verb *a locui *("to reside") which seems to be linked to the word mentioned above. But I'm probably wrong; in that case I'm sorry 

 robbie


----------



## clevermizo

robbie_SWE said:


> Hi!
> 
> Could the Romanian _*loc*_ ("place", from Latin _lǒcus_) be related? There is also a verb *a locui *("to reside") which seems to be linked to the word mentioned above. But I'm probably wrong; in that case I'm sorry
> 
> robbie



No. That Latin root is as you established _locus_ and lot _loquī_. C and QU represented different sounds in Latin (/k/ and /kʷ/), although in many Romance languages they can be synonymous.


----------



## robbie_SWE

clevermizo said:


> No. That Latin root is as you established _locus_ and lot _loquī_. C and QU represented different sounds in Latin (/k/ and /kʷ/), although in many Romance languages they can be synonymous.


 
I had a suspicion that I was wrong! I presume that Romanian acquired words like *locvace*, *elocvent*, *elocvenţă, locutor, locuţiune, ventriloc *etc. pretty late (probably during the 18th and 19th century as neologisms). But I believe that the key in finding remnants of the Latin _loquor/loquī_ is to analyse vocabulary in the most archaic and isolated Romance languages, like Sardinian and Romanian.

If I think of any word which might be related, I will return! 


 robbie


----------



## berndf

clevermizo said:


> No. That Latin root is as you established _locus_ and lot _loquī_. C and QU represented different sounds in Latin (/k/ and /kʷ/), although in many Romance languages they can be synonymous.


But the supine stem of _loqui_ has a "c" (_locut-us_). Die Difference between "c" and "qu" in _locus_ vs _loqui_ does not necessarily exclude a relation.


----------



## bibax

The archaic form of locus is *stlocus*.

The archaic form of loqui is *loquier*.

Probably not related words.


----------



## XiaoRoel

*Lokʷ-* ante vocal > _*loqu-*_, ante consonante _*locu-*_. Son _grafías diferentes_ de la misma raíz en _contextos fonéticos diferentes_. 
Al respecto de la inicial _*stl*_- (supuesta para _locus_ y _lis_), _Ernout no la admite_, como _no admite la indoeuropeidad_ de esta inicial de palabra.
En cuanto a _*loquor*_, _loquier_ es la forma arcaica de los _infinitivos_ de forma pasiva. Tampoco esta palabra, que substituyó a _fari_ y que sirvió para traducir los términos de la retórica griega, luego casi desaparecida en romance empujada por la palabra del latín cristiano _parabolare_, o del vulgar _fabulari_, tiene una etimología cierta: sólo hay una relación con lenguas célticas y no muy clara.


----------



## Gita-Etymology

Tough one. Maybe there are no reflexes? Posner's book "The Romanace Languages" (Page 138) has _loqui_ on a list of words that "disappeared completely from the inherited vocabulary" to be replaced by "_fabulare_, _narrare_, _parabolare_, .." etc.


----------



## Ottilie

robbie_SWE said:


> Hi!
> 
> Could the Romanian _*loc*_ ("place", from Latin _lǒcus_) be related? There is also a verb *a locui *("to reside") which seems to be linked to the word mentioned above. But I'm probably wrong; in that case I'm sorry
> 
> robbie



Yes,it's related. DEX says  _din Lat. locus. _


----------



## Jimbobmacca

clevermizo said:


> Hello all -
> 
> I should preface this by saying that I've only dabbled in Latin. However, I'm curious if any of the Romance languages have simple words whose reflex is the deponent Latin verb to speak _loquor/loquī_. Is this completely obsolete? I know that Vulgar Latin formations like _fabulāre _and _parabolāre_ have dominated most Romance languages that I can think of (as discussed in this thread about Portuguese _falar_) with the meaning of "to speak".
> 
> I was trying to think of individual words the other day but I really couldn't (in Spanish, that is). I looked up Spanish _loco_ for example, but that has an Arabic origin.
> 
> Can anyone else think of any Romance words deriving from the _loqu-_ root? I'm looking mostly for "simple" words because clearly higher register words exist (like _elocuencia_ in Spanish). Higher register words were probably borrowings from Latin, so _elocuencia_ is directly from Lat. _eloquentia_ and not derived in Spanish natively from _loqu-_.
> 
> Thanks.


in Spanish "locuaz"
in Catalan "locutor"
in English (not romance I know) "loquacious" from the French "loquace"

Also in Englsh/Spanish interlocutor


----------



## Swatters

Jimbobmacca said:


> in Spanish "locuaz"
> in Catalan "locutor"
> in English (not romance I know) "loquacious" from the French "loquace"
> 
> Also in Englsh/Spanish interlocutor


Those are all learned borrowings from Latin during the second millenium AD, as was pointed in the thread 11 years ago already, while the OP was looking at words from that root that kept being used since the time of the Empire. You'd expect the intervocalic /kʷ/ to lenite in an inherited word in Western Romance, yielding descendants like Spanish *loguaz or French *louvai.

I tried searching through the FEW for descendants of loqu- in Gallo-Romance, but all of them were learned borrowings, except possibly loquelle, a borrowing from Italo-Romance loquela


----------



## Circunflejo

berndf said:


> In French, _loquace is_ attested since the 18th century only. It should not be much older in Spanish.


In Spanish, locuaz was already in use in 16th century (maybe earlier; I just made a quick search).


----------



## Penyafort

I very much doubt there are any inherited reflexes of loquor in the Romance languages. As it's been said, all Romance languages but for Romanian base their 'speak' on either parabolare or fabulare/fabellare.


----------



## Linnets

Penyafort said:


> I very much doubt there are any inherited reflexes of loquor in the Romance languages. As it's been said, all Romance languages but for Romanian base their 'speak' on either parabolare or fabulare/fabellare.


In Tuscany we (used to) say _ragionare_ or _discorrere_ instead of _parlare_.


----------



## Penyafort

Linnets said:


> In Tuscany we (used to) say *ragionare *or _discorrere_ instead of _parlare_.


Interesting!_ Enraonar _is also common in Catalan for _parlar_. I've always found that a cool form, because it's like saying that, to speak, you have to reason what you say. 

Those I mentioned were obviously the common duality, but I'm sure we could even find more. _Charrar _in Aragonese, for instance, is frequently used for 'to speak' without necessarily implying 'chatter', even if both _fablar _and _parlar _also exist in the language.


----------



## pollohispanizado

In French, _causer_ means to talk/converse, however it does tend slightly toward the pejorative.


----------



## Circunflejo

Penyafort said:


> _Charrar _in Aragonese, for instance, is frequently used for 'to speak' without necessarily implying 'chatter'


Charrar is used for speak too in Asturleonese.


----------



## Swatters

Linnets said:


> In Tuscany we (used to) say *ragionare *or _discorrere_ instead of _parlare_.


From rationare, _resnier _was used in Old French for talking at length, and words from the same root still appear in that sense in Gallo-Romance (e.g. Wall _arinnî _to start aggressively talking with, Occ. _se razounà_ talk together, FProvencal _razunà _talk) and elsewhere (Piemontese _arsunè _to greet).

_Discourir _exists in Modern French (talk at length), but it's a learned borrowing.


pollohispanizado said:


> In French, _causer_ means to talk/converse, however it does tend slightly toward the pejorative.


_Causer _is a medieval Latin loan, initially meaning "plead one's case in court", which then got extended to all kind of speech activities, so I wouldn't expect it to be common elsewhere in Romance, though it's the main talking verb in some Oïl varieties.

Ibero-Romance _charrar _seems to be of onomatopoeic origin, as are French jaser and blablater. "Jaser"-type words are sometimes the main talking verbs in Oïl varieties (wall. djåser), while blablater is very recent coinage. There's also _bavarder_, "have a conversation", that's another internal coinage from _bave_ (drool).

_Fauler_ (< _Fabulare_) is found once in a Old Provencal text, but that seems to be it for that root in Gallo-Romance. _Hablar _was borrowed as _hâbler _in Middle French, but with the meaning "lie, exagerate".


----------



## Penyafort

Swatters said:


> Ibero-Romance _charrar _seems to be of onomatopoeic origin,


Indeed, but the word could have originated in Sardinia or Italy, not in Iberia. _Ciarrare _exists in Sardinian and _ciarlare _in Italian seems to be attested earlier than in Iberia, appearing already in Boccaccio, with dissimilation maybe based on influence from _parlare_. The first attestations in the languages spoken in Iberia seem to be from 16th century or later (in the case of Spanish, probably favoured by the loanword of _ciarlatano > charlatán_). 

What I wonder is whether there is one or rather two sources/pathways here, the Aragonese/Catalan/Occitan + Sardinian one (charrar/xerrar/ciarrare) and the Italian + Spanish/Portuguese (ciarlare/charlar/chalrar). The weird one would be Asturian using 'charrar' then.


----------

