# 妈



## Isidore Demsky

Is 妈 Madarin or Cantonese?

Is it pronounced "ma," as in English (and does it mean "female parent)?

Does anyone know if this word is somehow derived from the English (or were the Chinese calling their female parents "ma" before they came in contact with the English)?

P.S. It's my understanding that the Japanese have no such word for a female parent, and "mama san" is a post WWII expression picked up from American GI's (and considered vulgar.)

Does 妈 have a similar origin?

The word seems to be used in this (beautiful) children's song, but is it borrowed from the English?


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## Skatinginbc

It is definitely not borrowed from English.  It is attested in the chapter "_Kinship Terminology_" 《释亲》 of the ancient dictionary _Guang-ya_ 《廣雅》, which was written in the Three Kingdoms Period 三國時代 (AD 220–280) long *before* the Angles and Saxons had migrated to England and _Beowulf_ had been composed.


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## xiaolijie

"Ma", or something similar, is (taken as) the word for "mother" in many languages because it's the easiest sound a baby can  make.


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## themadprogramer

I'd argue it's not the easiest but indeed "mama" is quite common. Hindi, English, German if I'm not mistaken... and many others also use it.


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## Isidore Demsky

But not Japanese, right?


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## Skatinginbc

媽媽 _māma _"mother", 婆婆 _pópo_ "husband's mother", 奶奶 _nǎinai_ "grandmother, breast".

Japanese _mune "_breast" (Written Mongolian _mömü_ "female breast", Turkish _meme_ "female breast", Literary Manchu _meme_ "foster mother", Chinese 媽媽; also Latin _mamma_ "teat", English  _mamilla_ "teat").

Japanese _háha_ "mother" < Old Japanese _papa _(Chinese 婆婆; also Old Turkic _apa_, Written Mongolian _ebei_, Chinese 阿婆). 

Japanese _àne_ "elder sister" < Proto-Japanese *_ánái_ (Old Turkic _ana _"mother", Literary Manchu _eńen _"mother"; also English _nanny_ "a nurse for children 奶媽, a child's word for grandmother" 奶奶).

ma-, pa-, and na- are widely spread nursery/kinship terms.


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## Isidore Demsky

Skatinginbc said:


> It is definitely not borrowed from English.  It is attested in the chapter "_Kinship Terminology_" 《释亲》 of the ancient dictionary _Guang-ya_ 《廣雅》, which was written in the Three Kingdoms Period 三國時代 (AD 220–280) long *before* the Angles and Saxons had migrated to England and _Beowulf_ had been composed.



Thank you.

So this word never made it across the sea of Japan, and Japanese children (who I understand do say "ma," and "mama" today) never said "ma" until after WWII?


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## Skatinginbc

If your interest is mainly in the Japanese language, don't you think you should post your question in the Japanese Forum?


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## Isidore Demsky

Skatinginbc said:


> If your interest is mainly in the Japanese language, don't you think you should post your question in the Japanese Forum?



I did.



Isidore Demsky said:


> I know the Japanese language was heavily  influenced by Chinese, and Chinese children call their mothers "ma," or "mama" (much as English children do.)
> 
> I'm also told that this word "is attested in the chapter "_Kinship Terminology_" 《释亲》 of the ancient dictionary _Guang-ya_ 《廣雅》, which was written in the Three Kingdoms Period 三國時代 (AD 220–280) long *before* the Angles and Saxons had migrated to England and _Beowulf_ had been composed."
> 
> My question is whether there's any word like this in Japanese?
> 
> Do children call their mothers "ma," or "mama" (and if they do, was this  borrowed from the Chinese, the English, or post WWII American  GI's--which is where I've been told the somewhat derogatory "mamasan"  came from)?
> 
> P.S. Does 妈 mean anything in Japanese kanji?


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## Isidore Demsky

xiaolijie said:


> "Ma", or something similar, is (taken as) the word for "mother" in many languages because it's the easiest sound a baby can  make.





> Every language has a word for water. In Swahili they call it _maji_. In Dutch Danish, it's _vand_. The Japanese say _mizu_.  Even though these words describe the most common and plentiful  life-giving substance on Earth, they have nothing in common  linguistically. But why should they, evolving as they did on three  separate continents among people with incredibly diverse histories and  traditions?
> But there _is_ a word, and only one, spoken the same way in nearly every language known to humankind. That word, of course, is "mama."
> "Mama" is a universal word, describing the woman who gave us the most  cherished love in our most vulnerable state. Almost every language  boasts a recognizable form of it. *While it's true that most languages  vary when it comes to the formal word mother, the intimate mama stays the same in each language*...*
> The definitive study* on "mama and papa" as universal terms was conducted by Russian linguist Roman Jakobson.  He explained that the easiest vocalizations for a human to make are  open-mouth vowel sounds. Babies can make vowel sounds (cries) from day  one. And they do. Constantly. As they begin to experiment with making  other noises, babies will test some of the easier consonant sounds.  Usually they start with the sounds made with closed lips, or "labial sounds"  such as /m/ /p/ /b/. Babies summon their energy to push out that new  consonant sound "MMMM" and then relax into an open mouth vowel, usually  "ah" — which is the easiest. When you combine that with a baby's natural  repetition in speech, or "babbling," you get " ma-ma", "ba-ba" "pa-pa,"  and so on.
> *So why do babies gravitate to the "m" sound instead of "p" or "b"?  Because of breasts, of course! The "m" sound is the easiest for a baby  mouth to make when wrapped around a warm delicious breast.* Even as  adults, we still associate "mmm" with something being yummy and good. So  does your baby.


http://theweek.com/article/index/243809/why-babies-in-every-country-on-earth-say-mama

Japanese seems to be the exception.


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## Skatinginbc

Isidore Demsky said:


> Japanese seems to be the exception.


Japanese does not seem to be an exception to the "_delicious breast_" theory.
As far as "_ma_" meaning "mother" is concerned, Japanese seems to be _AN _exception, not _THE_ exception.


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## themadprogramer

Well the language of yours' truly doesn't use "mama", rather "ana". So there you go a language that does not fit this *ahem* so called "_delicious breast_ _theory_" .


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## Skatinginbc

Skatinginbc said:


> Japanese does not seem to be an exception to the "_delicious breast_" theory.


I meant Japanese _mune "_breast", which starts with a "m-" sound, does not seem to contradict the theory that "_the m sound is the easiest for a baby mouth to make when wrapped around a warn *delicious breast*. Even as  adults, we still associate "mmm" with something being yummy and good. So  does your baby_."  
According to this site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama_and_papa), _in Japanese the child's initial mamma is interpreted to mean "food"_.


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## Isidore Demsky

Skatinginbc said:


> I meant Japanese _mune "_breast", which starts with a "m-" sound, does not seem to contradict the theory that "_the m sound is the easiest for a baby mouth to make when wrapped around a warn *delicious breast*. Even as  adults, we still associate "mmm" with something being yummy and good. So  does your baby_."
> According to this site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama_and_papa), _in Japanese the child's initial mamma is interpreted to mean "food"_.



The site also says 



> Japanese has also borrowed informal _mama_ and _papa_ along with the native terms.



But borrowed from whom?

If "mama" was used as a word designating the female parent in China before Beowulf was written (and made it into a formal dictionary in the second century a.d.), it seems strange that the Japanese should wait to borrow the word from English language users.


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## themadprogramer

Japanese has experienced a lot of consonant changes over time. Just look at their countries' name. Nippon -> Niphon -> Nihon. Perhaps it came from Chinse as "mama" and than achieved it's current form of "haha".


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## Isidore Demsky

Ahmet Akkoç said:


> Japanese has experienced a lot of consonant changes over time. Just look at their countries' name. Nippon -> Niphon -> Nihon. Perhaps it came from Chinse as "mama" and than achieved it's current form of "haha".



You mean that the "p" sound changed to an "f" sound, and then to an "h" sound?

And you're suggesting that an "m" sound changed to an "h" sound?


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## xiaolijie

Ahmet Akkoç said:


> Just look at their countries' name. Nippon -> Niphon -> Nihon. Perhaps it came from Chinse as "mama" and than achieved it's current form of "haha".


 This is completely wrong, and a good example of how misinformation is started and spread on the internet.

PS: since a similar thread exists in the Japanese forum, I suggest that conjectures about the Japanese language should be posted there.


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## Flaminius

Skatinginbc said:


> Japanese _háha_ "mother" < Old Japanese _papa _(Chinese 婆婆; also Old Turkic _apa_, Written Mongolian _ebei_, Chinese 阿婆).
> 
> Japanese _àne_ "elder sister" < Proto-Japanese *_ánái_ (Old Turkic _ana _"mother", Literary Manchu _eńen _"mother"; also English _nanny_ "a nurse for children 奶媽, a child's word for grandmother" 奶奶).


A gratuitous connection between Japanese to any other language (except Ryukyuan languages) is very dubious.


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## xiaolijie

The original question has been answered and the topic is now closed.


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