# lingua vs linguaggio



## idra

è possibile rendere in inglese la differenza semantica esistente fra i due termini italiani lingua e linguaggio (lingua come fenomeno concreto, idioma, nel senso di "lingua italiana"; linguaggio come entità astratta, fatta di ciò che concerne tutte le lingue, anche nel senso di "filosofia del linguaggio")?
Devo scrivere un articolo in inglese e dovrei tradurre questi due concetti differenti preferibilmente con due parole diverse.
grazie,
Idra


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## fabry2811

Lingua come fenomeno concreto forse *tongue*

Lingua come entità* language*

Ma non sono sicuro....forse il contrario!


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## idra

Grazie per la conferma di linguaggio/_language_, ma non sono convinta su _tongue_ per indicare la lingua di una nazione..vedrò ti approfondire ulteriormente la ricerca..


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## elpoderoso

I don't think there are two seperate words like in Italian to describe these two variatioins, so you would have to use ''language'' and the context would explain the difference.
Tongue is more ''old fashioned'' or biblical, i.e ''speaking in tongues''


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## idra

Grazie elpoderoso!


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## You little ripper!

This is how Encarta describes the differences.

_*Language*_: the human use of spoken or written words as a communication system, or the speech of a country, region, or group; 
*Tongue*: a language used by a specific country, nation, or community

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861624937 (close to the the bottom of the page)


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## idra

Grazie per l'indicazione, Charles Costante


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## TimLA

Concordo con tutti gli altri foreri, che in inglese è difficile se parliamo del "linguaggio" )) normale o comune.

Ma ci sono due parole non comune (scomune?) che io uso per esprimere il concetto di "linguaggio" invece di "lingua".

In the *vernacular* of the South, one can often say "y'all" and it is a singular expression.
In legal *parlance*, it is not uncommon to find sentences that are uninterpretable.

Ma sono dell'uso raro, formale.


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## lamelamara

Per quanto ne so, in filosofia del linguaggio si fa spesso la differenza tra i linguaggi naturali, ossia quelle che definiremmo le lingue, e il linguaggio inteso come una forma astratta di comunicazione di qualsivoglia natura (linguaggio logico o matematico, linguaggio dei segni, etc.). Potresti valutare, per lingua, anche _natural language,_ come contrapposto, ad esempio, a _formal language. _Se ho capito di cosa stiamo parlando... Oppure, nel caso di terminologia più legata all'area semiotica, _natural language_ o _object language_ contrapposto a _metalanguage_. La filosofia del linguaggio (philosophy of language, suddivisa però in tante parti: linguistic, semiotic, analytic philosophy, logic, hermeneutic, philosophy of mind....) utilizza termini molto precisi a seconda dell'area di studio a cui si riferisce: forse, se puoi dimi qualcosa di più...


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## Cassidy's Mom

Forse *"jargon*" could be used to refer to *"linguaggio*" (the specialized language of a profession not common to laymen or regular people.)


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## miralo

Ciao - The words _lingua _and_  linguaggio_ both translate as _language. _Are they interchangeable, or are there subtle differences between them?

Grazie in anticipo


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## kiddox

_Lingua_ only refers to either _tongue(part of the body)_ or _English, French, Italian, etc..._

_Linguaggio_ is a more specific term to define any system of communication.


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## k_georgiadis

I would be inclined to use _linguaggio _as _parlance _or the specific language & terminology used by groups of people or segments of industry. For example, _linguaggio technico_ could be translated as _technobabble_, _linguaggio della pubblicità_ as _adspeak_. You could add _linguaggio_ _sportivo, __linguaggio burocratico, etc._ to the list.


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## Alxmrphi

"Lingua" indicates a language, like "la lingua cinese", but if you were to say "The language used in this book is really beautiful" - then you wouldn't use (I don't think) _lingua_ but _linguaggio_, because it's referring to the words as a whole, not denoting a specific language.

I hope that's right anyway!


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## Odysseus54

Alxmrphi said:


> "Lingua" indicates a language, like "la lingua cinese", but if you were to say "The language used in this book is really beautiful" - then you wouldn't use (I don't think) _lingua_ but _linguaggio_, because it's referring to the words as a whole, not denoting a specific language.
> 
> I hope that's right anyway!




That's correct - a 'linguaggio' is also any communication code that is not a 'lingua'.   'Sign language', for instance , 'body language', etc. , are all 'linguaggi', not 'lingue'.


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## miralo

Grazie - Molto chiaro.


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## WordsWordWords

**** NEW QUESTION ***
*
I am translating an interview with an architect and am also having trouble with the best word in English for "linguaggio". This is a question posed by the interviewer following a discussion of terms like "creativity" and "association" within project design and a planning.

 In questo senso possiamo dire che non esiste una ricerca sul _*linguaggio*_ o meglio che non c’è la volontà di definire di un _*linguaggio*_ riconoscibile e ripetibile, una firma da riprodurre o da insegnare agli studenti?

My instinct is to use something like "vernacular", "idiom" or "parlance" or perhaps "paradigm", since here "linguaggio" would seem to be referring to this: Paradigm - Wikipedia

For now I have this:

So is it possible to say that there has been no research on the language, or rather that there is no desire to define a recognizable and repeatable language, as a signature to be reproduced by or taught to students?

Maybe the two instances of "linguaggio" require two different words in English?

I don't find much help in the architect's reply, but I'll add it here for the sake of context:

Sì, certo. La forma non ha mai a che fare con l’architetto; ha a che fare con la cosa, con il luogo, con il significato. La firma dell’architetto non mi interessa. Questo si vede chiaramente dai risultati formali dei miei lavori di diploma – come anche nei progetti dello studio _XYZ_ – che sono sempre diversi uno dall’altro; non voglio che i miei studenti riproducano la mia architettura, vorrei piuttosto che cominciassero a pensare all’architettura in modo consapevole per rintracciare il _fil rouge_ della loro ricerca personale. Altrimenti si corre il rischio di generare copie e far crescere imitatori.



Thank you for any input...


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## MR1492

Hello WWW,

Have you considered the word "linguistics?"  It seems to combine the language, culture, and context within which a language operates.  It, or a form of it, may be what you need and can eliminate the need to either repeat "language" or to come up with a convoluted phrase in the place of one instance.

Phil


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## WordsWordWords

MR1492 said:


> Hello WWW,
> 
> Have you considered the word "linguistics?"  It seems to combine the language, culture, and context within which a language operates.  It, or a form of it, may be what you need and can eliminate the need to either repeat "language" or to come up with a convoluted phrase in the place of one instance.
> 
> Phil


Hi Phil - the problem with using the word "linguistics" is that, being a field unto itself, it cuts out the sense of the Italian _linguaggio_ which (if I'm not mistaken) implies a term for a "linguistic _set_" of a given context, field or circumstances.


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## MR1492

True enough, WWW.  But it might be there just isn't an exact match and linguistics might just be good enough in the Venn diagram of overlap of "linguistics" and "linguaggio."  I should have guessed you had considered that already.  

Phil


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## johngiovanni

Can we assume that the interviewer means by "linguaggio" "linguaggio architetturale" - an extended use of "linguaggio"?
He /She doesn't need to use "linguaggio architetturale" because "architetturale" is understood in the context.
I would be tempted to use "architectural language" for the first "linguaggio" and just "language" for the second "linguaggio".


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## Odysseus54

I think that, in a rather obscure way, the interviewer is talking about 'style', a distinctive and recognizable style to be transmitted to the students.  Idea that the interviewee openly rejects in the manner that we see.


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## WordsWordWords

Thank you jg and Odysseus.

I have come across this and so I think I will use the word _*vernacular
*_
So is it possible to say that there has been no research on the vernacular, or rather that there is no desire to define a recognizable and repeatable vernacular, as a signature to be reproduced by or taught to students?

the definition of vernacular

(See the 6th and 10th entries given >> Bingo! )


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## A User

l'Italiano, l'Inglese,..?  _*Italian language, English Language*_ (mai l'aggettivo da solo)
linguaggio come entità astratta, fatta di ciò che concerne tutte le lingue, anche nel senso di "filosofia del linguaggio"?  *verbal communication* and other more specific e.g. *oral comunication*, *non verbal communication*, and so on.


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## johngiovanni

The problem with "vernacular" for me is that "architectural vernacular" can mean "the local 'expressions' of buildings, generally houses of the lower class of a society reflecting the lives of the peasantry through their homes" (See Architectural Vernacular Grenadian Style.)


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## Odysseus54

WordsWordWords said:


> Thank you jg and Odysseus.
> 
> I have come across this and so I think I will use the word _*vernacular
> *_
> So is it possible to say that there has been no research on the vernacular, or rather that there is no desire to define a recognizable and repeatable vernacular, as a signature to be reproduced by or taught to students?
> 
> the definition of vernacular
> 
> (See the 6th and 10th entries given >> Bingo! )



If you had to turn the sentence into understandable everyday English, how would you paraphrase it ?


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## WordsWordWords

johngiovanni said:


> The problem with "vernacular" for me is that "architectural vernacular" can mean "the local 'expressions' of buildings, generally houses of the lower class of a society reflecting the lives of the peasantry through their homes" (See Architectural Vernacular Grenadian Style.)


Oh my goodness JG, you _do_ do your homework.....I hadn't thought of or seen that source....
OK so I should re-think "vernacular"...



Odysseus54 said:


> If you had to turn the sentence into understandable everyday English, how would you paraphrase it ?


Odysseus, that's a brilliant question -- especially as in this project I have run across very few sentences in the Italian version that deign to be called "understandable everyday Italian" (Oy, these architects.... )

What about this, _paraphrasing_:

Is it possible that no research has been done on how we discuss/describe our field, or that nobody seems interested in developing language that is recognizable and repeatable so as to be reproduced by or taught to students?

(Here's the original again):

In questo senso possiamo dire che non esiste una ricerca sul linguaggio o meglio che non c’è la volontà di definire di un linguaggio riconoscibile e ripetibile, una firma da riprodurre o da insegnare agli studenti?

My paraphrase seems almost sarcastic.... What do you think?

PS If helpful here is the interviewee's reply again:
Sì, certo. La forma non ha mai a che fare con l’architetto; ha a che fare con la cosa, con il luogo, con il significato. La firma dell’architetto non mi interessa. Questo si vede chiaramente dai risultati formali dei miei lavori di diploma – come anche nei progetti dello studio _XYZ_ – che sono sempre diversi uno dall’altro; non voglio che i miei studenti riproducano la mia architettura, vorrei piuttosto che cominciassero a pensare all’architettura in modo consapevole per rintracciare il _fil rouge_ della loro ricerca personale. Altrimenti si corre il rischio di generare copie e far crescere imitatori.


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## Odysseus54

WordsWordWords said:


> Oh my goodness JG, you _do_ do your homework.....I hadn't thought of or seen that source....
> OK so I should re-think "vernacular"...
> 
> 
> Odysseus, that's a brilliant question -- especially as in this project I have run across very few sentences in the Italian version that deign to be called "understandable everyday Italian" (Oy, these architects.... )
> 
> What about this, _paraphrasing_:
> 
> Is it possible that no research has been done on how we discuss/describe our field, or that nobody seems interested in developing language that is recognizable and repeatable so as to be reproduced by or taught to students?
> 
> (Here's the original again):
> 
> In questo senso possiamo dire che non esiste una ricerca sul linguaggio o meglio che non c’è la volontà di definire di un linguaggio riconoscibile e ripetibile, una firma da riprodurre o da insegnare agli studenti?
> 
> My paraphrase seems almost sarcastic.... What do you think?
> 
> PS If helpful here is the interviewee's reply again:
> Sì, certo. La forma non ha mai a che fare con l’architetto; ha a che fare con la cosa, con il luogo, con il significato. La firma dell’architetto non mi interessa. Questo si vede chiaramente dai risultati formali dei miei lavori di diploma – come anche nei progetti dello studio _XYZ_ – che sono sempre diversi uno dall’altro; non voglio che i miei studenti riproducano la mia architettura, vorrei piuttosto che cominciassero a pensare all’architettura in modo consapevole per rintracciare il _fil rouge_ della loro ricerca personale. Altrimenti si corre il rischio di generare copie e far crescere imitatori.




The way you interpret the interviewer's sentence would be fine if we didn't have the interviewee's answer, I think.  He is definitely talking about style, a specific style.


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## WordsWordWords

Uffa.... Now what? So it almost seems as if the reply doesn't match what the interviewer asked. 
I'm at the deadline and this is the last bit to clear up...maybe I should just swallow my pride ask the interviewer what she meant?


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## MR1492

WordsWordWords said:


> Is it possible that no research has been done on how we discuss/describe our field, or that nobody seems interested in developing language _a codex, as it were,_ that is recognizable and repeatable so as to be reproduced by or taught to students?



Just pulling an idea out of .... let's say thin air, why don't we use the old term "codex." While it literally means an old book made from vellum, it might have the gravitas you are seeking.

Phil


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## WordsWordWords

Hi Phil -- yes, the air has indeed become thin for this one.... Not sure about _codex_ as it refers to an actual physical object...

I was just thinking about the word _lexicon_ --> the definition of lexicon

The point that Odysseus made is valid however (about the reply given by the interviewee not actually corresponding to the question). I have written to the interviewer for her input.... Hopefully by tomorrow morning here in Italy I'll have something more. Thanks

Antonia


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## MR1492

Hmmmm, I actually like lexicon.  I think it might have just enough overlap with lignuaggio to make it work.  I just don't think there is one English word which will suffice.

Phil


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## polyglotwannabe

Very old thread, but it caught my attention. I think there's a word in english that may have the same shade (sfumatura) of  'linguaggio', if we are talking about a specific _*jargon *_dealing with a specific branch of knowledge. That word is '_lingo_'. '_*The lingo of*_...ad esempio,_* ''the lingo of architecture''*_...


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## pebblespebbles

Odysseus54 said:


> The way you interpret the interviewer's sentence would be fine if we didn't have the interviewee's answer, I think.  He is definitely talking about style, a specific style.



I agree! 
Possibilities from my point of view :
Style 
Features of a style
Language of form. 

I think you should repeat the same word you chose, because both "linguaggio" in your sentence has the same meaning. 
Ciao


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## metazoan

johngiovanni said:


> I would be tempted to use "architectural language" for the first "linguaggio" and just "language" for the second "linguaggio".



1. It's the most direct translation.
2. It's better than some of the considered alternatives. For example, _lexicon_ is a simple list of words, the building blocks, whereas _language_ would include higher-level patterns that order these elements (that is, syntax), which seems to better match other parts of the interviewer's question. 
3. The fact that the architect responded with thoughts on style doesn't change the meaning of the interviewer's question.


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## Odysseus54

metazoan said:


> 1. It's the most direct translation.
> 2. It's better than some of the considered alternatives. For example, _lexicon_ is a simple list of words, the building blocks, whereas _language_ would include higher-level patterns that order these elements (that is, syntax), which seems to better match other parts of the interviewer's question.
> 3. The fact that the architect responded with thoughts on style doesn't change the meaning of the interviewer's question.



The issue here is that 'linguaggio' in Italian, if applied to visual arts, architecture, even design or fashion, is often used to mean 'style' - a specific, distinctive style. Style being a way to communicate content, the metaphor is not that obscure.

To illustrate it, allow me to quote from "Dipinti del barocco romano da Palazzo Chigi in Ariccia"



> Tramite di questa straordinaria propagazione centrifuga furono soprattutto i Gesuiti, che esportarono il linguaggio del barocco romano in tutto il mondo...



E ancora :



> La difficolta' di una conoscenza sistematica della pittura romana del Seicento, determinata dalla molteplicita' delle tendenze linguistiche che si svilupparono nel corso del secolo..



In other words, here 'linguaggio' does not mean the spoken or written language we use to describe architecture, or the special, technical language architects use to communicate among themselves or to intimidate the public.  I think it means form (shape) as communication of a content.

Think of the 'square Colosseum' in Rome or of any Bauhaus-inspired building vs. Gaudi's works in Barcelona, just to have a clear contrast between two 'languages'.

I am pretty convinced now that the interviewer uses the word 'linguaggio' with this specific meaning.  The Architect answers by using a clearer language, and by doing so he helps us understand what the interviewer's question was actually about.


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## johngiovanni

Odysseus54 said:


> In other words, here 'linguaggio' does not mean the spoken or written language we use to describe architecture, or the special, technical language architects use to communicate among themselves or to intimidate the public. I think it means form (shape) as communication of a content.
> 
> Think of the 'square Colosseum' in Rome or of any Bauhaus-inspired building vs. Gaudi's works in Barcelona, just to have a clear contrast between two 'languages'.



I agree, absolutely.  It is a very extended use of "language".  But I would still use "language" in the translation of the interviewer's question.


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## Odysseus54

johngiovanni said:


> I agree, absolutely.  It is a very extended use of "language".  But I would still use "language" in the translation of the interviewer's question.



With you endorsing it, after all the hair-splitting we did, I would too.  And I would leave it as is , no adjectives ( by the way, it's 'architettonico'  )


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## johngiovanni

I agree.  In the context, no adjective is needed. And thanks for "architettonico".
If the interviewer comes back with something different....perhaps she can suggest a translation.


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## metazoan

Odysseus54 said:


> ... the metaphor is not that obscure... here 'linguaggio' does not mean the spoken or written language we use to describe architecture, or the special, technical language architects use to communicate among themselves or to intimidate the public.  I think it means form (shape) as communication of a content.


Agreed. This metaphorical use of _language_ may be less common in English than in Italian, but the reader should readily recognize it as a metaphor (especially if the first usage is preceded the adjective _architectural_). However, the "riconoscibile e ripetibile, una firma" part of the question makes me see _linguaggio_ not so much as communicating content (if by that you mean a social message), but more as a particularly structured style, that uses a set of architectural motifs and a syntax for arranging them. Maybe we're saying the same thing.


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## polyglotwannabe

I am sorry for the input that I  submitted. I thought it meant some kind of technical jargon, but reading all your posts  I have realized that is something altogether different.
I read this in wiki
Il *linguaggio*,_* in linguistica, è il complesso definito di suoni, gesti e movimenti attraverso il quale si attiva un processo di comunicazione. *_La facoltà di rappresentare mentalmente un significato è presente in molte specie di animali, tra le quali l'essere umano.

La capacità di elaborare e produrre un linguaggio verbale, nell'uomo, si è sviluppata a seguito di mutamenti strutturali della cavità orale. In particolare l'arretramento dell'ugola ha reso l'essere umano capace di esprimere una gamma sonora variegata e di controllare l'articolazione dei suoni.

At least this made me think of the word' _*Speech*_' linguistically speaking, but then again, I am not really sure. It is a difficult question.


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## Odysseus54

metazoan said:


> Agreed. This metaphorical use of _language_ may be less common in English than in Italian, but the reader should readily recognize it as a metaphor (especially if the first usage is preceded the adjective _architectural_). However, the "riconoscibile e ripetibile, una firma" part of the question makes me see _linguaggio_ not so much as communicating content (if by that you mean a social message), but more as a particularly structured style, that uses a set of architectural motifs and a syntax for arranging them. Maybe we're saying the same thing.



I think we  are. 'Content' here is also stretched a bit.  Roman monumental architecture 'speaks of' power and munificence.  Medieval castles and fortresses speak of and promise protection and safety.  I am obviously roughing it out, architecture is not my expertise and I am sure that those who write about it for a living can be a lot more creative. 
To say it succinctly, 'content' here is not 'information', but perhaps emotional, symbolic or aesthetic content.  The language of Monet as opposed to the language of Picasso or Grosz, for instance.  Where you could call it 'style' , if you look at it formally, in its formal characteristics, or 'language', if you consider it communication.

I am splitting hairs here because I am not sure of how frequent and clearly understandable this metaphorical usage of 'language' would be in English.  If both JG and you endorse it, I'd say we are home free.

The interviewer is asking : Can we say that you are not trying to create a style for your students to follow ?
The architect answers : Of course.  Form is relative to the individual work, to place and purpose, not to the architect.  I teah my students to be original thinkers, not followers.


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## WordsWordWords

johngiovanni said:


> I agree, absolutely.  It is a very extended use of "language".  But I would still use "language" in the translation of the interviewer's question.





Odysseus54 said:


> The issue here is that 'linguaggio' in Italian, if applied to visual arts, architecture, even design or fashion, is often used to mean 'style' - a specific, distinctive style. Style being a way to communicate content, the metaphor is not that obscure.
> 
> I am pretty convinced now that the interviewer uses the word 'linguaggio' with this specific meaning YES! .  The Architect answers by using a clearer language, and by doing so he helps us understand what the interviewer's question was actually about.





metazoan said:


> Agreed. This metaphorical use of _*language*_ may be less common in English than in Italian, but the reader should readily recognize it as a metaphor (especially if the first usage is preceded the adjective _architectural_). However, the "riconoscibile e ripetibile, una firma" part of the question makes me see _linguaggio_ not so much as communicating content (if by that you mean a social message), but more as a particularly structured style, that uses a set of architectural motifs and a syntax for arranging them.
> 
> "3. The fact that the architect responded with thoughts on style doesn't change the meaning of the interviewer's question." << Brilliant, that's what I needed to hear!



_*Bingo!*_ You three managed to solve it while I was waiting... (And thank you so much for batting away at it while I was away...) The interviewer answered me only a couple hours ago, and here's what she said:

 "...._il termine che solitamente si usa per “*linguaggio* architettonico” è *language*_....." 

Hence my final version (approved by the interviewer) is:

So is it possible to say that there has been no research on the language, or rather that there is no intention to define a recognizable and repeatable language as a signature to be reproduced by or taught to students?

Yay! 
Very grateful for all your input 
Antonia


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## A User

Basta verificare su un qualunque motore di ricerca se ricorre l'espressione: "Architectural Language".
Someone said: "Architecture is a Language" just to say Architecture is a mode of communication through forms, with own rules and signes.

Abstract: " The "Architectural Language" course proposes an understanding of architecture as language of forms with meaning, as a transporter of human symbols and at the same time as their externalization into built environment."

Se lo si traduce con "Simbolismo architettonico", si capisce.

Purtroppo la gente comune usa l'espressione "architectural Language" per indicare " the list of weird words used by architects". In questo caso sarebbe preferibile l'espressione: "Language of architects".


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