# Allah Allah - [Etymology]



## ancalimon

In Turkey we say this (Allah Allah?) in a questioning tone when we hear something which is surprising, when we think it may be a lie.

I found this:

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/re...ny=&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on

Proto-Turkic: *jAla
Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology






Meaning: 1 suspicion, false accusation 2 lie
Russian meaning: 1 подозрение, клевета 2 ложь
Old Turkic: jala 1 (OUygh.), jalɣan 2 (OUygh.)
Karakhanid: jala 1 (MK), jalɣan 2 (MK)
Turkish: jalan 2
Tatar: jala 1, jalɣan 2
Middle Turkic: jalɣan 2 (AH), jalqan 2 (MA)
Uzbek: jɔlɣɔn 2
Uighur: jalɣan 2
Azerbaidzhan: jalan 2
Turkmen: jalan 1,2
Oyrat: jala, d́ala 1
Kirghiz: ǯala 1, ǯalɣan 2
Kazakh: žala 1, žalɣan 2
Noghai: jala 1, jalɣan 2
Bashkir: jala 1, jalɣan 2
Balkar: ǯalɣan, žalɣan 2
Gagauz: jalan 2
Karaim: jalan, jalɣan 2
Karakalpak: žala 1, žalɣan 2
Salar: jalɣan 2
Kumyk: jalɣan 2
Comments: VEWT 181, 183, EDT 918-919, 926, ЭСТЯ 4, 87, 91-92. Turk. > Mong. jala (KW 214).


Is there any possibility that this "suspicion" is related to why we say "Allah Allah?"

also: http://www.eksisozluk.com/show.asp?t=allah%20allah   (some funny, and some true comment about this in Turkish)

http://www.seslisozluk.com/?word=allah+allah


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## macrotis

"Turkish: jalan 2"

Isn't it _yalan_? I can't see the relation. True, it's used in in situation where the listener is surprised but the emphasis is much more on surprise than any other thing. At least, that's how I use it.


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## Rallino

I agree with Macrotis. Plus there are two ways of using this expression. Below I gave to sample dialogues to show these ways. The first example has the "suspicion" and "surprise", but the second one shows only "surprise".

Example 1:
- Kıvanç Salı günü Amerika'ya gitmişti. Bugün geri dönmüş.
- Allah Allah ... Niye dönmüş ki?

_Suspicion + surprise. 
Surprise is stronger._

--------------------------------------

Example2:
- Çık dışarı hemen!
- Allah Allah ?! Sen kimsin de beni kovuyorsun be?!

_Only surprise._


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## PACOALADROQUE

In Spain we say this (*Hala, Hala*) in a admiration tone when we hear something which is surprising, when we think it may be a lie.

Regards.


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## dawar

We should figure out if arabic speakers are using this double "Allah" in the same way.


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## ancalimon

or if Central Asia and Siberia, Uyghurs in China does the same thing as well.


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## TekYelken

I wonder if the French use *'Oh la la'* in the same way.


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## ancalimon

macrotis said:


> "Turkish: jalan 2"
> 
> Isn't it _yalan_? I can't see the relation. True, it's used in in  situation where the listener is surprised but the emphasis is much more  on surprise than any other thing. At least, that's how I use it.



It was used as ALA. It's *"suspicion"* *"false accusation"* and "lie".  A similar word with same meaning can also be seen in Compendium of Turkic Languages by Mahmud of Kashgar.

ãl: hile (cheat), dalavere (scheme, plot, deceive)   (this also bring to my mind: "ALAVERE DALAVERE")

alın arslan tutar,küçün oyuq tutmas: using conspiracy you can catch a lion, using power you can't catch a scarecrow (this proverb is told to advice people to conspire against someone powerful in order to conquer them, because they can't be conquered using power since they are more powerful)


Could all of these be related?


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## macrotis

I'm a bit confused. Are you suggesting that Allah in the interjection "Allah! Allah!" (or in general, in all contexts) may have a relation to Turkish _al_, _ala_ or _yalan_ rather than being an Arabic (or Akkadian) word?


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## ancalimon

macrotis said:


> I'm a bit confused. Are you suggesting that Allah in the interjection "Allah! Allah!" (or in general, in all contexts) may have a relation to Turkish _al_, _ala_ or _yalan_ rather than being an Arabic (or Akkadian) word?



Yes. That's what I'm suggesting.


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## er targyn

It's thought that Semitic and Turkic aren't related, unless very, very distant. When the word Alla came to Kazakh language, it was adapted to Alda, which became homonymic with the base of the verb alda- "to deceive".  In Turkish it's aldat- with the causative affix.


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## ancalimon

er targyn said:


> It's thought that Semitic and Turkic aren't related, unless very, very distant. When the word Alla came to Kazakh language, it was adapted to Alda, which became homonymic with the base of the verb alda- "to deceive".  In Turkish it's aldat- with the causative affix.



Why would Turks connect it with deceiving. Is there an Arabic word similar to Ala which has some kind of negative meaning?


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## macrotis

Yesterday and today I asked 17 people (9 fellow teachers, 8 high school [12th grade and graduate] students) as "what would you think about someone when he says Allah, Allah! out of religious context?" 13 of them said "_bir şeye şaşırmış_," the rest said "_beklemediği/ummadığı bir şey duymuş/görmüş_." None of them associated the interjection with lie or deceiving.

I don't think your starting point is a factual one.


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## ancalimon

macrotis said:


> Yesterday and today I asked 17 people (9 fellow teachers, 8 high school [12th grade and graduate] students) as "what would you think about someone when he says Allah, Allah! out of religious context?" 13 of them said "_bir şeye şaşırmış_," the rest said "_beklemediği/ummadığı bir şey duymuş/görmüş_." None of them associated the interjection with lie or deceiving.
> 
> I don't think your starting point is a factual one.



I have heard "Allah Allah?" with the meaning "Kimi kandırıyosun sen"  countless times

Go and talk to people in the street. Tell them "give me $100 now and tomorrow I will bring $5000 to your address".  He would probably say Allah Allah? with a "grinning face" (with the meaning do you really think you are going to deceive, cheat me?)


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## er targyn

ancalimon said:


> Why would Turks connect it with deceiving. Is there an Arabic word similar to Ala which has some kind of negative meaning?



I didn't talk about all Turks. I just told a story how Alla followed certain phonotactic rules and became Alda in Kazakh. But nowadays Alla is again Alla.


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## macrotis

ancalimon said:


> He would probably say Allah Allah? with a "grinning face" (with the meaning do you really think you are going to deceive, cheat me?)



Or he would probably say "*git* lan işine!" or s*ktir *git* lan!" or "de *get* lan!" An English speaking person may say in this situation "Oh my God!" Shall we conclude that *God* is from Turkish *git*?


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## ancalimon

Could "Allak Bullak" be related with "Allah Allah?"


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## Guner

ancalimon said:


> Could "Allak Bullak" be related with "Allah Allah?"


 
I would say no


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## ancalimon

Guner said:


> I would say no



Please explain


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## TekYelken

I think the word *Allah* is derived from *El İlah,* and both of them are Arabic for *God*. As for the expression *Allah Allah*! that we use in Turkish, it might have been used originally to* ask for patience from God* to forbear or *pray him to be witness *to some unusual or difficult happening or situation.


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## ancalimon

TekYelken said:


> I think the word *Allah* is derived from *El İlah,* and both of them are Arabic for *God*. As for the expression *Allah Allah*! that we use in Turkish, it might have been used originally to* ask for patience from God* to forbear or *pray him to be witness *to some unusual or difficult happening or situation.



But I'm talking about "Allah Allah?!"  not "Allah Allah!"


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## er targyn

Allah is an Aramaic (Syriac) borrowing.


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## ancalimon

er targyn said:


> Allah is an Aramaic (Syriac) borrowing.



Yes.  But where does EL come from?  As in EL-İLAH.


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## er targyn

The word was re-analysed. Al = the.


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## ancalimon

Well it means "foreign, unnatural, not common in Turkish". This makes sense when you think about "Allah Allah?" or "Allak Bullak"


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## تهاطيل

In Arabic "*Allah*", "*Allah Allah*", "*subḥāna Allah*", "*sbḥān Allah*", and "*yā subḥāna Allah*" are used as an exclamation of surprise, amazement.



			
				Edward William Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon said:
			
		

> *سُبْحانَ مِنْ كَذَا, سُبْحانَ مِنْ فُلَانٍ, سُبْحانَ اللهِ مِنْ كَذَا* (*subḥāna min kaḏā, subḥāna min fulānin, subḥāna Allahi min kaḏā*)
> are phrases expressive of wonder at a thing and a person;
> originating from God's being glorified
> (*أنْ يُسَبَّحَ الله*; *ʾan yusabbaḥa Allah*) at the sight of what is wonderful
> of his works, and afterwards, by reason of its
> being frequently said, employed in relation to
> anything at which one wonders; meaning [_I wonder greatly_ (lit., _with
> wondering_) _at  such a thing and such a person;_
> as is shown by what follows; or] _how extraordinary_, or _strange_, _is such a thing!_ [and _such a
> person!_].



"*Allah*" also can be used to mean "for real", i.e. "seriously".


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## Guner

ancalimon said:


> Well it means "foreign, unnatural, not common in Turkish". This makes sense when you think about "Allah Allah?" or "Allak Bullak"


 
I still do not believe there is any etymologic relationship between the two.
I believe the only relation they have is that they are both used as exclamation of surprise or amazement. But then again I am not a linguist...


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## Guner

Guner said:


> I still do not believe there is any etymologic relationship between the two.
> I believe the only relation they have is that they are both used as exclamation of surprise or amazement. But then again I am not a linguist...


 
In fact I believe that "Allak Bullak" can be used when someone is confused not surprised or amazed. Hence I should correct my previous comments in a way that the two ("Allah Allah" and "Allak Bullak") can only be distantly related without meaning exactly the same thing.


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## Melaike

I think Allak has something to do with ''Ala'' which means ''mixed color'' and ''Bullak'' must have a similar meaning because it reminds me of ''bulamaç''.So in the end Allak Bullak means something like ''mixed up''.


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## Black4blue

Melaike said:


> I think Allak has something to do with ''Ala'' which means ''mixed color'' and ''Bullak'' must have a similar meaning because it reminds me of ''bulamaç''.So in the end Allak Bullak means something like ''mixed up''.



Sounds logical.


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## Tangriberdi

I pretty well remember that somewhere I read Allah Allah, is not a duplication of Arabic Allah. It is a remnant of old Turkic word Al ( hile, aldatmaca, kandırmaca, yalan, dolan)
Allamak meant To Deceit. Its imperative Alla was duplicated Alla Alla meaning " Deceive, deceive more"...that is "Tell lies and suppose I will believe you." It is irony meaning I do not believe you.
Those who say it is related to Al are right. But I do not know whether this phrase is used in anywhere in Turkic world or peculiar to Anatolian Turkish. But it may also be influenced by Arabic or the word Allah ( the God)


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## ancalimon

Tangriberdi said:


> I pretty well remember that somewhere I read Allah Allah, is not a duplication of Arabic Allah. It is a remnant of old Turkic word Al ( hile, aldatmaca, kandırmaca, yalan, dolan)
> Allamak meant To Deceit. Its imperative Alla was duplicated Alla Alla meaning " Deceive, deceive more"...that is "Tell lies and suppose I will believe you." It is irony meaning I do not believe you.
> Those who say it is related to Al are right. But I do not know whether this phrase is used in anywhere in Turkic world or peculiar to Anatolian Turkish. But it may also be influenced by Arabic or the word Allah ( the God)



It's weird. It seems like holy concepts are usually mixed with bad things. For example in the past "Yahu" was used like "Bismillah". Today it has become some kind of slang. People use it when they get angry at someone.


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## er targyn

Where to deceive is allamak? In Turkish it's aldatmak, no?


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## Tangriberdi

er targyn said:


> Where to deceive is allamak? In Turkish it's aldatmak, no?


Aldatmak is recent form of obsolete Aldamak, Aldamak had two versions, allamak or aldamak. The same word. Aldamak is Kypchak version, Allamak Oghuz version of the same Turkic word.


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## ancalimon

Maybe even the verb "allamak" have a meaning of "to deceive someone and make him/her think that you are more beautiful than you already are."


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## Melaike

Tangriberdi said:


> Aldatmak is recent form of obsolete Aldamak, Aldamak had two versions, allamak or aldamak. The same word. Aldamak is Kypchak version, Allamak Oghuz version of the same Turkic word.


Also ''Yaldamak'' version is in use in Northeast Turkey.


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## LaRishka

ancalimon said:


> or if Central Asia and Siberia, Uyghurs in China does the same thing as well.


From my extensive contacts with Central Asians and to a lesser degree with the Uyghur and Altay people, I can say that I never heard them saying "Allah Allah" whether to express surprise or for any other reason.


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## er targyn

Tangriberdi said:


> Aldatmak is recent form of obsolete Aldamak


Agree.


Tangriberdi said:


> Aldamak had two versions, allamak or aldamak. The same word. Aldamak is  Kypchak version, Allamak Oghuz version of the same Turkic word.


I don't think so. Can you show any text with allamak?


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## ancalimon

Since al itself meant to lie, to cheat... , it's logical to assume that there was a verb meaning with the root of "al".


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## er targyn

We have facts. It's stronger than ""logic"


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## Konanen

According to everything I read here, there are two possibilities about the saying "*Allah Allah*":

While in script, one sees the familiarity to Arabic الله, there could also be the chance for it to be the a geminated sarcastic imperative of the obsolete verb "aldamak", in its assumed Oghuzic form "allamak" → "Alla alla!" (Compare: "_Konuş(, sen, ) konuş... Belki dinlerim!_")

Also, there is the high(er) possibility, that this comes from Arabic, and is used to call upon god, begging for closure, for understanding, for help.
(Also compare: "_*Dear God*, do you think I am an idiot?_" Here, one does not ask God, whether s/he thinks of them as an idiot; but they call upon God to help them in this situation!)

Could it perhaps be, that both merged together, were used interchangeably until the actual origin became unknown and obsolete "Alla alla" was changed to the favor of religious and relatable "Allah Allah"?


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