# Finally, from Monday to Wednesday, I'll be in Berlin



## Flowers for Kartini

Hallo,

I would like to say in German the following:

"Finally, from Monday to Wednesday, I'll be in Berlin."

Is this correct? I'm not sure if the verb is in the correct position.

_Endlich von Montag bis Mittwoch bin ich in Berlin. 
_
Danke sehr


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## Demiurg

That doesn't sound idiomatic.  I would say something like

_Endlich bin ich in Berlin und zwar (nächste Woche) von Montag bis Mittwoch. _


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## Flowers for Kartini

Thank you! I'm not familiar with the expression "und zwar" (in fact).


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## berndf

Demiurg said:


> Endlich _bin ich in Berlin und zwar_ (nächste Woche) von Montag bis Mittwoch.


Für mich passt der Präsens _ich bin_ hier überhaupt nicht. Eine _und zwar-_Ergänzung erwartet, dass der vorhergehende Satz in sich vollständig ist und _Endlich_ _bin ich in Berlin _bedeutet für sich allein eindeutig, dass Du bereits in Berlin bist. Möglich wäre _Endlich werde ich in Berlin sein _oder _Endlich komme ich nach Berlin_. Beides sagt aus, dass Du noch nicht da bist.


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## berndf

Flowers for Kartini said:


> Thank you! I'm not familiar with the expression "und zwar" (in fact).


It is a very general introduction of a clause or sentence to mark this clause or sentence as containing supplemental information to what has been said before in the same sentence or in the previous sentence.


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## Flowers for Kartini

Aaah, I see now.  Thank you.

Could I just say: _Endlich komme ich nach Berlin von Montag bis Mittwoch?_


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## berndf

Flowers for Kartini said:


> Could I just say: _Endlich komme ich nach Berlin von Montag bis Mittwoch?_


_Montag bis Mittwoch komme ich endlich nach Berlin._
or
_Ich komme Montag bis Mittwoch endlich nach Berlin._

If you put _endlich_ at the beginning of the sentence then it applies to the whole sentence and not only to _Ich komme nach Berlin_; and that sounds weird. It sound as if you wanted to express that you _finally_ managed to get there Monday to Wednesday rather than, say, Thursday to Saturday as you usually do. That was also the reason why Demiurg suggested _und zwar_ because that prevents _endlich_ from extending its scope to _Montag bis Mittwoch_ and thus avoids this strange interpretation. But you can achieve the same by changing word order in one of the two ways I mentioned.


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## Demiurg

berndf said:


> Für mich passt der Präsens _ich bin_ hier überhaupt nicht. Eine _und zwar-_Ergänzung erwartet, dass der vorhergehende Satz in sich vollständig ist und _Endlich_ _bin ich in Berlin _bedeutet für sich allein eindeutig, dass Du bereits in Berlin bist.



Da hast du recht.  Die von dir vorgeschlagene Variante sollte aber auch mit "sein" funktionieren:

_Montag bis Mittwoch bin ich endlich in Berlin._


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## djweaverbeaver

I think the problem here *endlich* is the wrong word to translate _*finally. *_*Endlich* only means "finally" in the sense of after a long time or delay. It's at the end of a long wait that may have involved some difficulty. It can also have an eventual sense to it. An example would that you've been waiting for you friends who has yet to show up at the agreed-upon time to catch a movie:
A: Hey,  guys!  I'm here.  Let's go inside and buy our tickets!
B: *Finally*! You took your own sweet time getting here! I hope there are still some good seats. You know I hate sitting to close to the screen.

For *finally* to talk about the last of a series or sequence, _*endlich*_ is not the right word. In that sense you would need some like *zum Schluss, schließlich,* or *zuletzt*.

@Demiurg's translation is different from what you said, and I agree with what @berndf said about it.


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## berndf

Demiurg said:


> Da hast du recht. Die von dir vorgeschlagene Variante sollte aber auch mit "sein" funktionieren:
> 
> _Montag bis Mittwoch bin ich endlich in Berlin._


Da sind wir einer Meinung.


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## berndf

djweaverbeaver said:


> For *finally* to talk about the last of a series or sequence, _*endlich*_ is not the right word. In that sense you would need some like *zum Schluss, schließlich,* or *zuletzt*.


If that's what the OP meant then I agree with all of your suggestions. Of course, I also agree with your general point that _endlich_ only translates one of the two possible meaning of _finally_.


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## Robocop

> I would like to say in German the following:
> "Finally, from Monday to Wednesday, I'll be in Berlin."



Endlich! Nächsten Montag bis Mittwoch werde ich in Berlin sein.
"Endlich" (with exclamation mark) expresses here a feeling of relief after much longing or waiting.


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## Kajjo

I believe the main problem here is an attempt of a too literal translation. The above mentioned tranlations are fair enough and quite good if considered as literal translation and simple exercise. However, they are not really idiomatic. German native speakers would usually express the idea in other ways, depending on context for example:

_Inzwischen steht übrigens fest, dass ich von Montag bis Mittwoch in Berlin bin/sein werde.
Nun steht endlich fest, dass...
Endlich haben sie sich darauf geeinigt, dass...
Nun also doch! Ich werde Montag bis Mittwoch in Berlin sein!_


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## Dan2

I agree with dj that there may be a misunderstanding here, and I think it continues even after his post.  Here's the most natural context for the original sentence (Flowers, please say more if this is not correct):

Here are my plans.  On Thursday and Friday I'll be in Frankfurt.  I'll spend Saturday and Sunday in Hanover.  *Finally, from Monday to Wednesday, I'll be in Berlin.*"  (So "Finally" would mean "As the last item in my list...".)


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## djweaverbeaver

Yes, @Dan2, that's exactly what I was getting at! It would be really nice if @Flowers for Kartini could confirm that this is what was meant.


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## bearded

The original English phrase would have been less ambiguous if using ''at last'' instead of ''finally''.
Anyhow, _endlich _seems to be just as ambiguous as 'finally': according to WRDictionary, it can also mean ''and last'' _bei Aufzählungen''._
See also  Duden: second meaning _zuletzt._


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## Kajjo

Dan2 said:


> 'll spend Saturday and Sunday in Hanover. Finally, from Monday to Wednesday, I'll be in Berlin."


Ah, OK, that would be a really different meaning.



bearded man said:


> _endlich _appears to be just as ambiguous as 'finally'


Not in everyday, contemporary usage. Using _endlich _in this meaning is old-fashioned and sounds pretty strange to most natives. This is more fairy tale style rather than normal spoken language.


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## bearded

Example of _endlich_ in the sense of ''schließlich/zuletzt'', from Duden:
_Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war _(I suppose: after previous and previously listed attempts had been made in vain...)
Does this sound old-fashioned/strange?


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> Example of _endlich_ in the sense of ''schließlich/zuletzt'', from Duden:
> _Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war _(I suppose: after previous and previously listed attempts had been made in vain...)
> Does this sound old-fashioned/strange?


No, but that corresponds to English _eventually_. It doesn't fit @Dan2's example.


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## Kajjo

bearded man said:


> Does this sound old-fashioned/strange?


This sound old-fashioned to me. Maybe it is conserved regionally anywhere? I cannot imagine such a sentence in spoken language. Maybe an author attempting elevated or old style might use it. I would use "schließlich/letztlich/zum Schluss/am Ende" in normal style.

_A kommt zu spät.
B: Endlich! Da bist du ja!  /  Da bist du ja endlich!

Die Ehefrau ist nach langen Getütel endlich [sic] fertig zum Ausgehen.
B: Na endlich, das wurde ja auch Zeit!_

Theses examples are the standard usage of _endlich_ in contemporary German. The meaning _schließlich _is not wrong, but old-fashioned or maybe regional.

EDIT: On second thought, with the suitable stress and intonation, the sentence can be fine if understood differently than I initially took it:

_Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war.
= Wir hätten damals schon erkennen müssen/sollen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war._

In diesem Sinne kann man _"endlich"_ in der modernen Bedeutung durchaus verwenden.

Dagegen

_Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war.
= Wir mussten damals schließlich einsehen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war.
_
sounds old-fahioned to me. This is not an everyday usage of _"endlich"_ anymore.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> No, but that corresponds to English _eventually_


I see.  It's a subtle nuance.


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## bearded

Kajjo said:


> _Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war.
> = Wir hätten damals schon erkennen müssen/sollen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war._


Ich kann nur mit Mühediese Bedeutung verstehen. Ist hier 'endlich' ähnlich wie 'doch'? Oder wie 'nun mal'?


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## Kajjo

bearded man said:


> Ich kann nur mit Mühediese Bedeutung verstehen.


No problem, it was my second thought, too. But in that way we could save this usage. Normally, "endlich" here ist not typical in contemporary German.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> No problem, it was my second thought, too. But in that way we could save this usage. Normally, "endlich" here ist not typical in contemporary German.


I would personally probably say letztendlich in that sentence but I would perceive neither _letztlich_ nor _endlich_ as strange or unusual.

Anyhow, as I said before, the meaning of _endlich_ in that sentence does not fit @Dan2's scenario.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> I would personally probably say letztendlich *in that sentence* but I would perceive neither _letztlich_ nor _endlich_ as strange or unusual


Do you really mean in the following version, which Kajjio was referring to


Kajjo said:


> _Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war.
> = Wir hätten damals schon erkennen müssen/sollen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war._


or is this a misunderstanding?


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> Do you really mean in the following version, which Kajjio was referring to
> 
> or is this a misunderstanding?


I meant this:


Kajjo said:


> Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war.
> = Wir mussten damals schließlich einsehen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war.
> 
> sounds old-fahioned to me. This is not an everyday usage of _"endlich"_ anymore.


I find nothing old-fashioned or unusual about this use of _endlich_ although it would not be my preferred word in this sentence.

Having said that, I have to alert you to the fact that my spoken German is in many aspects that of the late 80s. E.g. it still bewilderes me, if I hear "Gerne" as a reply to "Danke" instead of "Bitte", which I expect. On the other hand, written, standard language does not change so quickly as spoken, colloquial language and something what was perfectly alright and current use 30 years ago, should not be considered obsolete now, otherwise you would have to revise the language of published books with every new edition.


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## Dan2

bearded man said:


> The original English phrase would have been less ambiguous if using ''at last'' instead of ''finally''.


No, "at last" would not be correct in the context I provided in #14.  "At last" contains the exasperation-followed-by-relief of "Endlich!". "Finally", in the scenario that seems most natural to dj and me, simply identifies what follows as the last item in a list, no emotion involved.


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## bearded

Dan2 said:


> No, "at last" would not be correct in the context I provided in #14.


I know, but I wasn't actually making reference to your #14, sorry. I just stated that ''at last'' would have been unambiguous - of course expressing the 'relief' of _endlich!  _Unfortunately, we are having to deal  with the ambiguous ''finally'' - as long as Flowers does not specify her intended meaning better. Your and dj's interpretation ''as last item... /schließlich'' is of course quite plausible.


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## berndf

Dan2 said:


> No, "at last" would not be correct in the context I provided in #14.  "At last" contains the exasperation-followed-by-relief of "Endlich!". "Finally", in the scenario that seems most natural to dj and me, simply identifies what follows as the last item in a list, no emotion involved.


Exactly. And that is definitely not within the list of possible meanings of "endlich". At least not in halfway recent usage.


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## Dan2

bearded man said:


> I just stated that ''at last'' would have been unambiguous


Ah, I see.  Yes, less ambiguous, but wrong!  (in my reading).

Well maybe, on Monday, when FfK gets settled in Berlin and has more time, we'll (finally!/at last!/endlich!) find out what she really meant...


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## bearded

Dan2 said:


> we'll (finally!/at last!/endlich!) find out what she really meant...


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> And that is definitely not within the list of possible meanings of "endlich". At least not in halfway recent usage.


That's what I meant with old-fashioned. We seem to agree.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> That's what I meant with old-fashioned. We seem to agree.


Nicht ganz. Die von @Dan2 in #14 beschriebene und in #15 von @djweaverbeaver bestätigte Lesart von _finally _ist nicht mit _endlich _übersetzbar. Dem habe ich zugestimmt.

Du hast aber diese Verwendung von_ endlich_:


Kajjo said:


> Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war.
> = Wir mussten damals schließlich einsehen, dass alle Mühe vergebens war.


als veraltend gekennzeichnet. Dem stimme ich nicht zu.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> als veraltend gekennzeichnet. Dem stimme ich nicht zu.


OK, ich bleibe aber dabei. So würde sich niemand ausdrücken, den ich real kenne.

_ Wir haben schließlich erkannt, dass...
 Wir haben letztlich erkannt, dass...
 Wir haben endlich erkannt, dass... <different meaning, though>
_
Are these synonym sentences to you? For me, no. The first two mean the same, the last example is different, because "endlich" conveys a notion of "should have been earlier", while the upper two examples are just a neutral "eventually". 

The following sentences are in different order and only the first two work, the third is quite strange nowadays. The last sentence does not convey the same meaning.

_ Wir mussten schließlich erkennen, dass...
 Wir mussten letztlich erkennen, dass...
 Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass... <old-fashioned, on the border to sounding wrong to me in contemporary spoken German>_


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Wir mussten schließlich erkennen, dass...
> Wir mussten letztlich erkennen, dass...
> Wir mussten endlich erkennen, dass... <old-fashioned, on the border to sounding wrong to me in contemporary spoken German>


Ich selbst würde hier entweder _schließlich_ oder _letztendlich_ (Schweizern gegenüber auch _schlussendlich_) sagen. Ich interpretiere sowohl _letztlich_ als auch _endlich_ als möglich kürzere Alternativen zu _letztendlich_. Aber ich gebe zu, dass die Bedeutung _endlich=letztendlich_ rar ist.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> Ich selbst würde hier entweder _schließlich_ oder _letztendlich_


Ja, ich finde beide Ausdrücke passend und würde sie auch selbst beliebig verwenden.



berndf said:


> Schweizern gegenüber auch _schlussendlich_


Auch in Ordnung, sicherlich seltener, aber für mich nicht aufsehenerregend.



berndf said:


> Aber ich gebe zu, dass die Bedeutung _endlich=letztendlich_ rar ist.


Eben! Und ich persönlich empfinde sie nicht nur als rar, sondern als veraltet -- denn außerhalb von alten Texten begegnet mir diese Bedeutung wahrlich nirgends. Niemand sagt so etwas heute in gesprochener Sprache!


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## Resa Reader

Flowers for Kartini said:


> I would like to say in German the following:
> 
> "Finally, from Monday to Wednesday, I'll be in Berlin."



Back to the original sentence. Without having read the answers I immediately interpreted the "finally" as the last stop of an itinerary. Dan2 did the same, I think.

So, if my interpretation is correct, I would say:

Von Montag bis Freitag werde ich dann schließlich in Berlin sein.

finally | Englisch » Deutsch | PONS


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## Kajjo

Resa Reader said:


> Back to the original sentence.


Good idea...

_Abschließend werde ich von Montag bis Freitag in Berlin sein._


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## Resa Reader

Kajjo said:


> _Abschließend werde ich von Montag bis Freitag in Berlin sein._



 So geht's auch.


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