# Dare, or dare to?



## LV4-26

Hello everyone,

I've seen the thread started by whodunit about "dare"
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=7260&highlight=dare
but it doesn't answer all my questions

Now, correct me if I'm wrong :

1. I would never have dared *to* use this word (correct)
2. I wouldn't dare use this word (correct ?) (grammar says it is but I've never seen it)
2b. I would never have dared use this word
(still correct ? or incorrect because too many auxiliaries in a row, so you've got to have "to" ?)

3 to 9 are imperatives
3. Dare change! (incorrect)
4. Dare *to* change! (correct)
5. Don't dare *to* approach my husband (correct)
6. Don't dare approach my husband (correct)
7. Don't you dare *to* approach my husband! (correct)
8. Don't you dare approach my husband! (correct)
9. Don't dare approaching my husband (incorrect ?)
(seems incorrect to me but I've seen it several times on the internet).

10. I don't dare to tell him (correct)
11. I don't dare tell him (correct)
(so you can have "don't" both with and without "to" ?)
12. I dare not tell him. (correct)

13. I dared not do it (correct)
14. I daredn't do it (incorrect ? - I've seen it, though)

You've got plenty of time to answer as I think I won't come back till tomorrow

Thx a lot in advance
Jean-Michel


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## timpeac

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've seen the thread started by whodunit about "dare"
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=7260&highlight=dare
> but it doesn't answer all my questions
> 
> Now, correct me if I'm wrong :
> 
> 1. I would never have dared *to* use this word (correct)*Tick *
> 2. I wouldn't dare use this word (correct ?) (grammar says it is but I've never seen it)*Tick * *It's fine, and spoken as well as written*
> 2b. I would never have dared use this word*Tick * *absolutely fine.*
> (still correct ? or incorrect because too many auxiliaries in a row, so you've got to have "to" ?)
> 
> 3 to 9 are imperatives
> 3. Dare change! (incorrect)
> 4. Dare *to* change! (correct)*Tick *
> 5. Don't dare *to* approach my husband (correct)*Tick * *but I prefer 6*
> 6. Don't dare approach my husband (correct)*Tick *
> 7. Don't you dare *to* approach my husband! (correct)*Tick again I prefer 8*
> 8. Don't you dare approach my husband! (correct)*Tick *
> 9. Don't dare approaching my husband (incorrect ?) *can't say I've heard it*
> (seems incorrect to me but I've seen it several times on the internet).
> 
> 10. I don't dare to tell him (correct)*Tick but I prefer 11*
> 11. I don't dare tell him (correct)*Tick *
> (so you can have "don't" both with and without "to" ?)
> 12. I dare not tell him. (correct)*Tick *
> 
> 13. I dared not do it (correct)*Tick I didn't dare do it is more normal.*
> 14. I daredn't do it (incorrect ? - I've seen it, though) *I haven't. Are you thinking of "I daren't do it" which is fine?*
> 
> You've got plenty of time to answer as I think I won't come back till tomorrow*Well it'll be ready for you then!*
> 
> Thx a lot in advance
> Jean-Michel*you're welcome, Tim*


See answers above. I've had to write *Tick *as otherwise there are too many images in the post.


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## LV4-26

Hehe, I'm still here though not for long.

Thanks a lot Tim. Your detailed answers have been very helpful.
I did mean "daredn't" which I'd seen on the internet. Probably on some message boards and we all know that not everything is trustworthy there. So I felt I had to ask in order to be sure.


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## fetchezlavache

would you guys say that you use 'to' after dare, more often than not ? or not ? 

it is an american/british english difference ?


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## LV4-26

fetchezlavache said:
			
		

> would you guys say that you use 'to' after dare, more often than not ? or not ?
> 
> it is an american/british english difference ?


We'll wait for their answers. But we've already got Tim's :
He seems to prefer all the sentences without the "to". (when correct).


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## cuchuflete

Dare to be different!

You wouldn't dare!

In the latter sentence the "to" would sound superfluous, and would weaken the emphasis.

I don't think it's so much a matter of AE/BE/CE as what the context suggests, along with the natural cadence of the language. Care to disagree? I don't dare. 

Now, try "Care disagree? I don't dare to." That just doesn't work as well. It's a needless coda after the final crashing chord. The audience has already begun to applaud the orchestra, the concertmaster is rising to take a bow, and the oboe player
adds a nasal "to"!


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## LV4-26

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Now, try "Care disagree? I don't dare to." That just doesn't work as well. It's a needless coda after the final crashing chord. The audience has already begun to applaud the orchestra, the concertmaster is rising to take a bow, and the oboe player
> adds a nasal "to"!


I like the image. And it's perfectly clear, too.
btw, this is against the rules, i;e;. "when the others have finished, if you've still got some notes to play on your score, don't play them"


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## cuchuflete

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> I like the image. And it's perfectly clear, too.
> btw, this is against the rules, i;e;. "when the others have finished, if you've still got some notes to play on your score, don't play them"



Yes Jean-Michel, but you know how daring oboe players are.


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## mzg

Hello

This is what my grammar book says about the use of the verb DARE. The sentences that you wrote and corrected *almost* agree with the rule. So for us, non natives, they might work out.

A) The idea is that Dare is used as a* modal* (no -s, no "do" for questions, no "to")

Dare you go?

I dare go

You daren't jump from the tree

B) Or as an ordinary verb (-s, to, do)

He dares to tell them what he knows about them 
Do I dare to ask?
I don't dare to say ...

C) Expression: *I dare you to* .... is used by children to challenge each other
(A que no te atreves a...) 

D) *You dare! Don't you dare!* is used by mothers (this is what the grammar book says, but I guess fathers can use it too  ) to discourge people/children from doing sth.

E) *I dare say...* means probably

F) *How dare you? *..... is an indignant exclamation 

Hope it helps to systematise what has been said

Bye

María


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## Cath.S.

Does anyone still use_ durst _ instead of _dared_, or is it really obsolete?


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## cuchuflete

Hi Egueule,
It's sufficiently archaic that you forced me to lift the elbow-breaking "unabridged" from it's resting place on the floor in order to find it.  

cheers,
Cuchu


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## timpeac

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hi Egueule,
> It's sufficiently archaic that you forced me to lift the elbow-breaking "unabridged" from it's resting place on the floor in order to find it.
> 
> cheers,
> Cuchu


 
Yup, even on this side of the Atlantic, I agree with that.


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## Cath.S.

Thanks, Cuchu and Tim.  
The reason why I asked is that as a kid I learned it, along with the other irregular verbs, but never encountered it in modern writing. Thanks for setting my doubts at rest.


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## fetchezlavache

mzg said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> This is what my grammar book says about the use of the verb DARE. The sentences that you wrote and corrected  *almost*  agree  with the rule. So for us, non natives, they might work out.
> 
> A) The idea is that Dare is used as a* modal* (no -s, no "do"  for questions, no "to")
> 
> Dare you go?
> 
> I dare go
> 
> You daren't jump from the tree
> 
> B) Or as an ordinary verb  (-s, to, do)
> 
> He dares to tell them what he knows about them
> Do I dare to ask?
> I don't dare to say ...
> 
> C) Expression: *I dare you to* .... is used by children to challenge each other
> (A que no te atreves a...)
> 
> D) *You dare! Don't you there!* is used by mothers (this is what the grammar book says, but I guess fathers can use it too  )  to discourge people/children from doing sth.
> 
> E) *I dare say...* means probably
> 
> F)  *How dare you? *..... is an indignant exclamation
> 
> Hope it helps to systematise what has been said
> 
> Bye
> 
> María




thank you very much !


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## jacinta

I just want to add that in AE it would be rare to hear, "I daren't say anything".  We would say instead, " I don't dare say anything."


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## LV4-26

mzg said:
			
		

> *You dare! Don't you there!*


Did you really mean "_don't you *there*_" ? or was it "_don't you dare!"_

Thks a lot anyway.


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## te gato

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Did you really mean "_don't you *there*_" ? or was it "_don't you dare!"_
> 
> Thks a lot anyway.


don't you *dare*!..me...to *dare* you!...to put an end to this *daring* thread..for how *dare* I ask such a thing of you.. after you *dared* to ask such a *daring* question...I *dare* not say anything more...

tg


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## mzg

Hi LV4

[CODE]   
Did you really mean "don't you there" ? or was it "don't you dare!"
[/CODE] 

Really I meant Don't you dare  I have edited it 

Bye


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## Lotache

Hi everyone,

Would it be correct to conclude by saying that 'to' can always be used in affirmative sentences, and can always be not used in negative sentences? 

Ta very much.


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## walloper

-*I   can’t  believe  you  leaked  that  confidential  memo  to  the  rest   of  the  office!  How  ___  betray  me  in  this  fashion?*





Options:

dare you
daring you
dared you
did you dare

I would say number 4. Am I right?

Thank you


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## natkretep

No, the answer is the first option _dare you_.

_How dare you_ is a fixed phrase to express anger at the other person's actions. _How did you dare_? is a question about where the other person got their bravery from.

See the W R Dictionary:



> *how dare you *used to express indignation.


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## walloper

Hi natkretep (what a difficult nickname),

Even the action is made in the past like this case? Wouldn't be _dared you_ rather than _dare you_?

Thanks


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## natkretep

Hullo, walloper. Just call me Nat.  So much easier.

'How dare you!' used like this is always in the present tense. The only exception that I can think of is when it is a kind of free indirect speech, and even so it sounds a little strange.

'How dared you' makes it into a question (like 'How did you dare').


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## Negina

mzg said:


> Hello
> 
> This is what my grammar book says about the use of the verb DARE. The sentences that you wrote and corrected *almost* agree with the rule. So for us, non natives, they might work out.
> 
> A) The idea is that Dare is used as a* modal* (no -s, no "do" for questions, no "to")
> 
> Dare you go?
> 
> I dare go
> 
> You daren't jump from the tree
> 
> B) Or as an ordinary verb (-s, to, do)
> 
> He dares to tell them what he knows about them
> Do I dare to ask?
> I don't dare to say ...
> 
> C) Expression: *I dare you to* .... is used by children to challenge each other
> (A que no te atreves a...)
> 
> D) *You dare! Don't you dare!* is used by mothers (this is what the grammar book says, but I guess fathers can use it too  ) to discourge people/children from doing sth.
> 
> E) *I dare say...* means probably
> 
> F) *How dare you? *..... is an indignant exclamation
> 
> Hope it helps to systematise what has been said
> 
> Bye
> 
> María



But how do you distinguish between dare the modal verb and dare the ordinary verb? To me, it means the same thing in both cases.


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## wandle

Negina said:


> But how do you distinguish between dare the modal verb and dare the ordinary verb? To me, it means the same thing in both cases.


It does mean the same in both cases. However, there are various customary uses in which it is treated as a modal verb.
Those situations need to be learned, in order to use the word idiomatically.

My own view is that the use with 'to' is the default use, and therefore not wrong, but to use it in those cases where the verb is usually treated as modal would seem odd to native speakers, because it is not idiomatic.


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## Negina

wandle said:


> It does mean the same in both cases. However, there are various customary uses in which it is treated as a modal verb.
> Those situations need to be learned, in order to use the word idiomatically.
> 
> My own view is that the use with 'to' is the default use, and therefore not wrong, but to use it in those cases where the verb is usually treated as modal would seem odd to native speakers, because it is not idiomatic.


Thanks, wandle! It's actually easier now


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## nemo eve walle

> 9. Don't dare approaching my husband (incorrect ?) *can't say I've heard it*
> 2. I wouldn't dare use this word (correct ?) (grammar says it is but I've never seen it)*Tick * *It's fine, and spoken as well as written*
> 2b. I would never have dared use this word*Tick * *absolutely fine.*



My question:
9.  ''Don't'' is a auxiliary verb, ''dare'' is a verb, ''approach'' is a  verb, so ''approach'' should be a gerund, which I think it is right in  that sentence. But timpeac said never heard of it?
2. ''Wouldn't'' is a auxiliary verb, ''dare'' is a verb, ''use'' is a verb, so ''use'' should be a gerund, ''I wouldn't dare using this word'' is more right.
2b. ''Dared'' is a verb, ''use'' is a verb, so ''use'' should be ''using'', ''I would never have dared using this word.''

Why isn't the verb a gerund after the verb ''dare''?


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## timpeac

nemo eve walle said:


> My question:
> 9.  ''Don't'' is a auxiliary verb, ''dare'' is a verb, ''approach'' is a  verb, so ''approach'' should be a gerund, which I think it is right in  that sentence. But timpeac said never heard of it?
> 2. ''Wouldn't'' is a auxiliary verb, ''dare'' is a verb, ''use'' is a verb, so ''use'' should be a gerund, ''I wouldn't dare using this word'' is more right.
> 2b. ''Dared'' is a verb, ''use'' is a verb, so ''use'' should be ''using'', ''I would never have dared using this word.''
> 
> Why isn't the verb a gerund after the verb ''dare''?


It's just a matter of usage. Your question seems to suggest that you think "verb + verb" always means that the second is always a gerund. This isn't always true.

Edit - for example, in the sentence I just wrote. You could not say "*Your question seems suggesting that you think..."


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## nemo eve walle

Why is it wrong? 
"*Your question seems suggesting that you think..."
"*Your question seems to suggest that you think..."
"*Your question seems to be suggesting that you think..."
"*Your question seems suggest that you think..."
This is what I think.
If it is just a matter of usage, then I think ''I like swim'' is correct?


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## Forero

Regular _dare_ and modal _dare_ do not in general mean the same thing, but each has multiple meanings and some meanings are shared by both _dare_s. The meanings of course depend on context. (Compare the use of _may_, _can_, and _be able_. The meanings are varied, and they overlap, but they are not in general the same.)

Adding or removing a _to_ after _dare_ tends to affect whether the emphasis is on the degree of boldness (in the positive) or trepidation (in the negative) or on whether or not an action is actually carried out.

_Dare_ is especially unusual in that it is often used as a sort of hybrid between a regular verb and a modal auxiliary, with _dare_ taking the form of an infinitive or past participle (a property usually outside the realm of modal verbs) but being followed by a bare infinitive (a property usually restricted to modal auxiliaries). The meaning in such constructions is the "modal" meaning, but whereas _may_ and _can_ are defective and get replaced with _be able to_ as needed, _dare_ seems to be spared some of the "defectiveness" due to its ability to "paraphrase" itself.

The use of _dare_ to mean something like "challenge" is always regular and transitive, and modal _dare_ is used almost exclusively in negative and interrogative contexts, "I dare say" being one, and perhaps the only, exception.





LV4-26 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've seen the thread started by whodunit about "dare"
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=7260&highlight=dare
> but it doesn't answer all my questions
> 
> Now, correct me if I'm wrong *All your assessments are accurate except as noted*:
> 
> 1. I would never have dared *to* use this word (correct)
> 2. I wouldn't dare use this word  *(correct)*
> 2b. I would never have dared use this word *(correct, but I would expect either a to or mention of circumstances)*
> 
> 3 to 9 are imperatives
> 3. Dare change! (incorrect)
> 4. Dare *to* change! (correct)
> 5. Don't dare *to* approach my husband (correct)
> 6. Don't dare approach my husband (correct)
> 7. Don't you dare *to* approach my husband! *(correct, but I would expect mention of circumstances; to does change the meaning a little)*
> 8. Don't you dare approach my husband! (correct)
> 9. Don't dare approaching my husband *(something seems to be missing from this example, but regular dare can certainly take a gerund as direct object)*
> 10. I don't dare to tell him *(correct, but leaves me looking for more)*
> 11. I don't dare tell him (correct)
> (so you can have "don't" both with and without "to" ?) *Yes.*
> 12. I dare not tell him. (correct)
> 
> 13. I dared not do it (correct)
> 14. I daredn't do it *(incorrect)*
> 
> You've got plenty of time to answer as I think I won't come back till tomorrow
> 
> Thx a lot in advance
> Jean-Michel


Some correct structures seem awkward (unbalanced) without more context, such as mention of circumstances. Perhaps the structures themselves require subordinated ideas to be self contained in some sense.

P.S. I have just noticed that the hybrid _dare_ (infinitive _dare_ or past participle) _dared_ used without _to_) is always emphasized, as if it were an adverb, but pure modal _dare_ does not have to be.


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## krk36

Hi everybody,

Can I say:

"You dared fool me twice"
or
"You dared to fool me twice"

Which one's the most accurate? thank you


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## Forero

krk36 said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> Can I say:
> 
> "You dared fool me twice"
> or
> "You dared to fool me twice"
> 
> Which one's the most accurate? thank you


If it is meant to be a complete sentence, a positive statement, use the second one (with _to_).


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## krk36

In the context it is about someone who dared to lie to somebody twice .. so without the _"to" (is that what you mean by a positive statement)_ ?


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## Forero

krk36 said:


> In the context it is about someone who dared to lie to somebody twice .. so without the _"to" (is that what you mean by a positive statement)_ ?


There is nothing negative or interrogative in your sentence, so you need the _to_:

_You didn't dare fool me twice._ [This is negative because it uses _n't_.]
_Did you dare fool me twice?_[This is a question, so it is interrogative.]
_I didn't believe you dared fool me twice._[Notice the _n't_.]
_I wondered whether you dared fool me twice._[This is interrogative (indirect) because it uses _whether_.]
_You dared fool me twice._[This is positive, so it needs a _to_.]
_You dared to fool me twice._

In this respect, modal dare works something like _ever_:

_You didn't ever fool me._[Negative]
_I wondered whether you ever fooled me._[Interrogative]
_You ever fooled me._[Positive]


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## krk36

Awesome. Thanks a lot Forero!!


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## C_18

Hello,
We said _I don't dare do Xy _would be fine, but could you also use the progressive?
E.g.: a) I don't dare talk to her
         b) I don't dare talking to her

         c) I will not start to do that!
         d) I will not start doing that!

I know the progressive concentrates on the process of the action and it is quite weird since this moment of daring is before the actual talking but does anybody have an idea why b) is not as good as d) which sounds better and right to me (maybe I am wrong?)
Thanks!


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## Forero

C_18 said:


> Hello,
> We said _I don't dare do Xy _would be fine, but could you also use the progressive?
> E.g.: a) I don't dare talk to her
> b) I don't dare talking to her
> c) I will not start to do that!
> d) I will not start doing that!
> 
> I know the progressive concentrates on the process of the action and it is quite weird since this moment of daring is before the actual talking but does anybody have an idea why b) is not as good as d) which sounds better and right to me (maybe I am wrong?)
> Thanks!


"Dare" in a is a hybrid modal/regular verb. The meaning is "Out of trepidation, I can't talk to her", approximately.

There is no "progressive" in b, in which "talking to her" is the direct object of "dare". This is a transitive use of _dare_, not a modal use, and the meaning is "I don't chance talking to her", approximately.

There are ambiguities in c and d that require context to resolve, and "start" is a very different verb from "dare", so discussion of the difference(s) between c and d belong in a different thread.

EDIT: Changed "risk" to "chance" (verb) to be more accurate.


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## C_18

Hello,
Thanks for your reply.
I provided the sentences c and d because of their grammatical structure (verb + complement including a finite verb). Maybe my example was not completely helpful due to the lack of modality.
If they are correct, a and b must be too - this was my hypothesis. Your reply has helped me understand the direct object as a unit.
Nevertheless, I am actually hoping to get a reply to my question whether dare can be used with a direct object including an -ing form instead of the infinitive (e.g "dare talk" vs "dare talking").
Thanks


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## Forero

C_18 said:


> Hello,
> Thanks for your reply.
> I provided the sentences c and d because of their grammatical structure (verb + complement including a finite verb). Maybe my example was not completely helpful due to the lack of modality.
> If they are correct, a and b must be too - this was my hypothesis. Your reply has helped me understand the direct object as a unit.
> Nevertheless, I am actually hoping to get a reply to my question whether dare can be used with a direct object including an -ing form instead of the infinitive (e.g "dare talk" vs "dare talking").
> Thanks


I hestitate to call "dare talk" a direct object since "talk" remains verb-like in the modal construction.

But in "I don't dare talking to her", "talking to her" is the direct object of "dare", and "dare" has a transitive meaning, namely "chance": "I don't chance talking to her."

In other words, changing "talk" to "talking" alters the meaning of "dare" from something modal like "can't with the trepidation I feel" to something transitive: "I don't chance talking to her."

The sentence "I don't dare talking to her" is a little incomplete without the mention of circumstances or instances of some kind, but it is certainly not ungrammatical. The same is true of "I don't chance talking to her."

EDIT: Changed "risk" to the more accurate "chance".


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## Loob

a) I don't dare talk to her
a1) I daren't talk to her
b) I don't dare talking to her

c) I will not/won't start to do that!
d) I will not/won't start doing that!


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## PaulQ

There is an informative post in English on* dare/dare to *in the Italian forum dare/dare to


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## JClaudeK

Please, could you tell me if the  _double negative_ in this sentence is correct?


> "Don't you dare not treat this lady like a queen"



Thank you.


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## ewie

Yes it is


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## adarkunicorn

Hello, I’m a bit confused because I have seen people saying dare can be used with a gerund (don’t you dare asking). Yet some say it can’t because it’s a semi-modal. But need is a semi-modal as well and it can be used with a gerund (the house needs cleaning). It it grammatically wrong? Or old-ish English? Or just kind of "uncommon" English?
Thank you!


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## Wordy McWordface

_Don't you dare asking_ is incorrect, as far as I know. I have never come across this construction and it sounds very wrong to me.

I don't think the comparison with other semi-modals is helpful here.


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## zaffy

Loob said:


> I don't dare talk to her
> I daren't talk to her



If we add "to", both examples work, right?

_I daren't talk to her. = I don't dare *to* talk to her._


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## zaffy

I just looked "dare" up in "Oxford Guide to English Grammar" and it says the full infinitive is AE.


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## Wordy McWordface

zaffy said:


> I just looked "dare" up in "Oxford Guide to English Grammar" and says the full infinitive is AE.
> 
> View attachment 63781


No, it doesn't. "Americans mostly use X" does not mean that "X is AE".  That's not how language works. 

If you saw the sentence "Americans mostly have coffee at breakfast time", would you conclude "Coffee is American"?


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## kentix

I can say I wouldn't use most of those _to'_s.


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