# stand firm / stand firmly



## nobuta1997

Hello everyone,

I keep hearing this near the escalator:
"Please stand firm and hold the handrail."

But I think "firm" is an adjective, and an adjective shouldn't be used like that, right?
Just like you can say "hold the handrail tightly" but not "hold the handrail tight."

Thank you all in advance.


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## pob14

The dictionary says it is both an adjective and an adverb.  (It says the same about "tight," which is why you absolutely _can_ say "hold the handrail tight.")


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## nobuta1997

Thank you for replying.
Hmm, that's interesting. For some weird reason mine (a English-Chinese one) doesn't say they are adverbs...

But I can still say "stand firmly" if I want, right?


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## pob14

You could, I guess, although it might sound a little over-formal.

The problem with "stand firm" in the first place is that it has an idiomatic meaning which is more common than its literal meaning.  The overwhelming majority of the time it's used (at least in my experience), it means "stick to your opinion, don't let people impose their will on you."

"Stand still" is probably what you actually want in this sentence.


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## nobuta1997

Okay, I now understand. Thank you so much!


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## Andygc

nobuta1997 said:


> I keep hearing this near the escalator:
> "Please stand firm and hold the handrail."


Where do you keep hearing this? It is not, as pob14 said, normal English, and it also seems strange to me that anybody would be making safety announcements by something so ordinary as an escalator.


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## Edinburgher

There is a new Sainsbury's near me (just opened last year).  It does make such safety announcements each time it notices someone step onto the escalator.

I don't remember exactly, but I think it says "Please stand still and hold the handrail".  This is an escalator with a flat rather than stepped moving surface, and the gradient is fairly shallow, so the surface is long.  The whole store is on stilts above the car parking area.  People take their trolleys on this escalator.  When you approach the other end (irrespective of whether you're going up to the shop or down to the cars), it says "Please be prepared to push your trolley off the walkway."    It's bizarre and annoying, but there we are.

It's enough to drive anyone off their trolley.


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## Andygc

Ah yes, but to be pedantic, that isn't an escalator but an inclined moving pavement - but the difference is unlikely to change the price of fish.


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## nobuta1997

Andygc said:


> Where do you keep hearing this? It is not, as pob14 said, normal English, and it also seems strange to me that anybody would be making safety announcements by something so ordinary as an escalator.


It's an automated, pre-recorded announcement repeated again and again near all escalators in Beijing Subway's stations.

Such announcement originated from stations on Line 4 (operated by a Hong Kong-based railway company) in an elegant British accent.
And now all stations have that announcement...in an annoying Chinglish accent.


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## Andygc

Thank you. It sounds like something shouted to the men at a place like Rorke's_Drift when the Zulus were making their final charge. ('Stand firm!', not 'hold the handrail!'  )


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## bennymix

Come on, you guys!
pob said,  _You could, I guess, _[say 'stand firm'] _ although it might sound a little over-formal._    He didn't say, "not... normal English."

I don't find it objectionable.  There are a number of verbs that happily  have adjectives following, and there are natural, idiomatic examples, 
such as "I feel bad" "I lay quiet."   As to the injunctive forms,  similarly;  I fail to see why "Stand firm" isn't right, but, e.g., "Be  resolute" is OK.

Andy said, 





Andygc said:


> Where do you keep hearing this? It is  not, as pob14 said, normal English, and it also seems strange to me that  anybody would be making safety announcements by something so ordinary  as an escalator.



===

ADDED:
pob in full:



> You could, I guess, although it [stand firmly]might sound a little over-formal.
> 
> The problem with "stand firm" in the first place is that it has an  idiomatic meaning which is more common than its literal meaning.  The  overwhelming majority of the time it's used (at least in my experience),  it means "stick to your opinion, don't let people impose their will on  you."
> 
> "Stand still" is probably what you actually want in this sentence. 				​
> Sorry, but due to multiple issues in the past, I cannot reply to quest



ADDED May 20, after Loob's post 12.    I see I have mis-read pob.    Sorry.   I think Andy appears to have, also.


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## Loob

Benny, it was "Please stand firm and hold the handrail" that Andy said wasn't normal English; "stand firm" is, of course, perfectly fine in the right context.

Like others, I would expect "Please stand still" rather than "Please stand firm" here.


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## Edinburgher

I don't find "stand firm" objectionable, merely semantically unsuited to the context.  It seems to imply an almost military stiffness of posture, while the intended meaning here is only that you should not walk.

What is objectionable isn't the vocabulary, but the inanity of the whole setup, with sensible adults being treated like five-year-olds.

Have you ever noticed that sometimes the handrail doesn't move at the same speed as the floor?  This makes the advice to hold on to it impossible to comply with.


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## pob14

bennymix said:


> pob said,  _You could, I guess, _[say 'stand firm'] _ although it might sound a little over-formal._    He didn't say, "not... normal English."


I should have been clearer.  I was talking about "stand firm*ly*" in that part of my answer.


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## bennymix

I see that now, pob.  Sorry.  I was relying on Andy's post and not paying attention to yours.

Do you think "Stand firm and hold the handrail" is improper or problematic, as asked in the OP?




pob14 said:


> I should have been clearer.  I was talking about "stand firm*ly*" in that part of my answer.


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## bennymix

Hi Andy,
I think, like me, you misread pob.  The only passage resembling (the gist of) what you attribute is, in fact, talking about 'stand firmly.'




Andygc said:


> Where do you keep hearing this? It is not, as pob14 said, normal English, and it also seems strange to me that anybody would be making safety announcements by something so ordinary as an escalator.


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## bennymix

Edinburgher, Let's be clear here.  The OP asked about whether 'firmly' was preferable, in the statement "Please stand firm and hold the handrail."
I think the answer is 'no'.    What is your answer?

Whether 'firm' (or 'firmly')  is the right word and the semantics of the situation is another matter.   In that, I agree 'firm/firmly' might not be the best choice, as compared to 'Stand still' or 'Steady yourself."   This is the issue Loob raises in her post#12;  it's not an issue directly raised by the OP though of course the topic is relevant.




Edinburgher said:


> There is a new Sainsbury's near me (just opened last year).  It does make such safety announcements each time it notices someone step onto the escalator.
> 
> I don't remember exactly, but I think it says "Please stand still and hold the handrail".  This is an escalator with a flat rather than stepped moving surface, and the gradient is fairly shallow, so the surface is long.  The whole store is on stilts above the car parking area.  People take their trolleys on this escalator.  When you approach the other end (irrespective of whether you're going up to the shop or down to the cars), it says "Please be prepared to push your trolley off the walkway."    It's bizarre and annoying, but there we are.
> 
> It's enough to drive anyone off their trolley.


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## Edinburgher

bennymix said:


> Edinburgher, Let's be clear here.  The OP asked about whether 'firmly' was preferable, in the statement "Please stand firm and hold the handrail."
> I think the answer is 'no'.    What is your answer?


 My answer is 'yes'.  The adjective version  seems more suited to the "standing your ground" context, and implies that you should "stand and be firm".  I think in the given context the adverb would be better (stand in a firm manner - stand firmly).

The question turns on whether in "Stand still" you see "still" as an adjective or an adverb.  I see it as an adverb.
cf. http://www.wordreference.com/definition/still "ADV 4. quiet or without movement: _sit still_"

Mind you, WRD says that "firm" without -ly can also be an adverb: "in a secure, stable, or unyielding manner: _he stood firm over his obligation to pay_".
So perhaps my answer should be "it doesn't matter", but I'm inclined to stick with 'yes' because the -ly version makes it more obvious that it is an adverb.


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## Andygc

bennymix, slow down a bit . My main point was 'where on Earth did this come from? It's not English." I have no objection to "stand firm" in the right context: for example, when about to be overrun by a few thousand Zulu warriors. It is, however, completely out of place on a Beijing subway station's escalator. 

So we've dealt with two doubts generated by nobuta's question:
1. It's 'firm', not 'firmly'.
2. It's inappropriate in the given context, now that we know it.

PS I see Edinburgher disagrees with 1., but this is a set phrase which has been used to exhort troops. I cannot imagine using 'stand firmly' as an imperative.


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## bennymix

We reach agreement, Andy, as usual.


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## bennymix

In WR dictionary, for 'firm' adj., it says

2. securely in position; stable or stationary

Meanings related to attacking Zulus are further down the list.     So there is no basis for objecting to the adjective, here, or calling it Chinglish or wildly inapplicable. 

So there is no gain is using 'firmly' and the answer to the OP is "There is no good reason to employ 'firmly,' though it would not be wrong.  THAT SAID, the choice of 'firm' might be questioned;   perhaps 'still' (retaining adjective) is preferable."




Edinburgher said:


> My answer is 'yes'.  The adjective version  seems more suited to the "standing your ground" context, and implies that you should "stand and be firm".  I think in the given context the adverb would be better (stand in a firm manner - stand firmly).
> 
> The question turns on whether in "Stand still" you see "still" as an adjective or an adverb.  I see it as an adverb.
> cf. http://www.wordreference.com/definition/still "ADV 4. quiet or without movement: _sit still_"
> 
> Mind you, WRD says that "firm" without -ly can also be an adverb: "in a secure, stable, or unyielding manner: _he stood firm over his obligation to pay_".
> So perhaps my answer should be "it doesn't matter", but I'm inclined to stick with 'yes' because the -ly version makes it more obvious that it is an adverb.


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## xuliang

Andygc said:


> 2. It's inappropriate in the given context, now that we know it.
> 
> PS I see Edinburgher disagrees with 1., but this is a set phrase which has been used to exhort troops. I cannot imagine using 'stand firmly' as an imperative.


 
Hi,all. I have a question about "Stand firm." I often hear this on buses (what I hear on buses is Chinese; I have been wondering how to say them in English). Last week, I heard an English version on a subway, but not on the elevator; it's in the carriage/car of the subway. After the train stopped and then started moving , it said " The train is moving, please stand firm; hold onto the handrail." (I didn't hear clearly whether it was "the train was moving")

In train/bus contexts, for "stand firm",it wants to mean  the train/bus has started to move; it is warning the passengers to stand firmly(otherwise they might fall.)

I am wondering if "stand firm" is natural in this context. What's your suggestion? Thank you.


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## Edinburgher

My recommendation remains that both "stand firm" and "stand firmly" are not good for this context, and that "stand still" probably is good.
The basic meaning is that you should stay put and not move around.


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## Dale Texas

I keep thinking of "Remain standing and hold on to the handrail" or something like that.


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## EdisonBhola

Based on all the comments above, it seems the consensus is that "stand firm" has been used wrongly given the context. But if you come across this sign next to an escalator, would the error be so obvious that it would catch your attention, at the level of misusing "you're" when "your" is called for?


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## Loob

Yes, it would catch my attention. I would be vaguely amused by the mental picture it conjured up.


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## Andygc

It would be obvious that the sign was not written by somebody whose native language was English.


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## Dale Texas

Andygc said:


> It would be obvious that the sign was not written by somebody whose native language was English.


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## Packard

"Stand firm" in my mind always brings up "remain resolute".  I would not use it to refer to posture or a physical stance.

I would prefer, "Please hold the handrail and remain in place."


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## EdisonBhola

Packard said:


> "Stand firm" in my mind always brings up "remain resolute".  I would not use it to refer to posture or a physical stance.
> 
> I would prefer, "Please hold the handrail and remain in place."


Is "stand in place" also correct and natural when asking people not to walk up/down when using the escalator?


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## Edinburgher

No.


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## EdisonBhola

Edinburgher said:


> No.


And how about "stand still" in this context?


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## Edinburgher

Yes, as I said in #7.


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## Packard

Or

Stay where you are
Don’t move


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## Enquiring Mind

There's a wry observation here which illustrates the point pob14 made in #4, that "stand firm" is wrong in the context of using an escalator: 





> “Stand firm and hold the handrail”, a friendly female voice repeats over and over on the escalators in the Beijing subway. That is good advice in world politics too. Don’t be intimidated by capricious or aggressive world leaders; don’t overreact either; stand firm and calmly defend your position. But just as one would wish for a handrail in today’s volatile environment, there doesn’t seem to be one in sight. (Egmont)


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## Edinburgher

Packard said:


> Or
> 
> Stay where you are
> Don’t move


"Stay where you are" and "Don't move" are mutually contradictory in the context of an escalator, because in order to stay where you are, you need to walk backwards at the same speed as that at which the escalator is moving forwards.


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## Packard

nobuta1997 said:


> Thank you for replying.
> Hmm, that's interesting. For some weird reason mine (a English-Chinese one) doesn't say they are adverbs...
> 
> [...]



“Stand your ground” has gained a new meaning in the USA and it is best to not use it unless it is in reference to that new meaning. 

Most jurisdictions require that if you are confronted with physical force you are obligated to flee if it is at all possible.  Only when fleeing is no longer feasible may you defend yourself. 

Florida and some other states have adopted “stand your ground” statutes that allow you to meet physical force with physical force (including deadly physical force) with no need to flee or attempt to flee. 

So as to avoid any confusion, “stand your ground” usage should be very limited (in my opinion).

Addendum:

You need to vet and validate your dictionaries.  It may be time to dispose of this one. 

My Shanghainese roomate’s dictionary misspelled “dictionary” on the front cover (“dictionroy”). 

In an earlier time my employer’s English/Italian dictionary listed “azurro” and “blu” as synonyms and the inability to distinguish sky blue from blue cost our company $40,000.00.

So check your dictionary.  Buy one that is generally recognized as authoritative.


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## Packard

Edinburgher said:


> "Stay where you are" and "Don't move" are mutually contradictory in the context of an escalator, because in order to stay where you are, you need to walk backwards at the same speed as that at which the escalator is moving forwards.



“Let the escalator climb the stairs for you.  It does not require you assistance.  Please remain on the same step for the duration of the ride.”

(Only the last sentence is required and I think it is sufficiently succinct and accurate for this context,)


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## Edinburgher

Packard said:


> athorative


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## Packard

Edinburgher said:


>


Corrected, but my IPad spell checker does not flag it.


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## Edinburgher

I seriously thought you  had mis-spelled it deliberately, as a joke, to fit in with "dictionroy".


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## Packard

Edinburgher said:


> I seriously thought you  had mis-spelled it deliberately, as a joke, to fit in with "dictionroy".


No.  It was my illiteracy showing its ugly head.

Both the “dictionroy” and the “blu/azurro” stories are true.  

My employer vacationed in Como, Italy for many summers and was proud of his Italian.  We previously had ordered some components with a zinc finish from Italy, but now we needed to order the same ones in bright red, yellow, forest green, and royal blue.  The Italian vendor supplied us with color samples which were approved. 

My employer decided to write the purchase order in Italian and he did not know the word for “blue”.  He looked it up in his dictionary and it gave “azurro” as the definition, but azurro means sky blue.  We had to pay a painting company $40,000.00 to recoat the 500,000 pieces.

You really need a quality dictionary—most people think all dictionaries are the same. 

Packard.


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