# Ce n'est ni fait ni à faire



## Missrapunzel

Hello, 

how can I say : _*ce n'est ni fait ni à faire?*_
That's something we say in french when something was really badly done. For example, if somebody washed something and the thing was still not clean in the end. 

Literally, it would be _it's neither done nor to be done_ but I doubt that it is the equivalent. 

Thanks!!


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## Stefan Ivanovich

Faute de voir un équivalent, je dirais sans doute quelque chose comme:
_   They made a bungle of it 
__   They made a miserable botch of it 
__They botched it
_mais il doit y avoir bien mieux...


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## greygoose

Nothing springs to mind straight away but I'll have a think.  I don't think there's an exact equivalent.

You might say something like 'you might as well not have bothered'


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## fabfab

any other idea from natives?


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## Camis12

_you might as well not have bothered_ sounds good to me
you could also say
_you/I/they did a poor/rubbish job_


I have seen that expression translated before as _there is nothing to be done_ but that's not quite how you explained it.


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## Suehil

'They only did half a job on it', perhaps?


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## Missrapunzel

I like "_you might as well not have bothered_" ! Thanks Camis!
I think it conveys this idea pretty closely.

Can I say it to myself if I notice that something that I have done is not a good job -> I might as well not have bothered?


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## Camis12

it was greygoose that came up with it!


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## Missrapunzel

Camis12 said:


> it was greygoose that came up with it!


   Thanks greygoose!!


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## Camis12

Another suggestion (which you probably don't need any more but I happeded to think about it) would be

"it's too late to do anything about it now"

I think this corresponds more closely with the French


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## david314

Vulgar slang:  _a half-assed job_


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## greygoose

Hi Missrapunzel

I'm not sure you can say it of yourself.  If you say, 'I don't know why I bothered' it has a slightly different meaning - usually that you've done someone a favour and you get no thanks for it.  (someone correct me if that's rong).

Hope you found the right one.

GG


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## Missrapunzel

Thanks for the explanation, greygoose!
And thanks everyone for your input!!


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## hunternet

Could it be : This is as complete as incomplete / This is not incomplete...but not complete too


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## Missrapunzel

Thanks Hunternet!
The native speakers will advise on the suitability of your proposition...


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## Camis12

hunternet said:


> Could it be : This is as complete as incomplete / This is not incomplete...but not complete too


 
unfortunately that doesn't make any sense.  I have checked and when I've heard/seen this it's been most like "it's too late to do anything about it now" or a bit like the english expression "there's no use crying over spilt milk"


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## hunternet

The point is, I think, to find an suitable image to say : "c'est du travail bâclé"; bref c'est encore l'histoire du verre à moitié vide ou à moitié plein, sauf qu'ici on ne sait pas s'il est vide ou plein.
Est-ce qu'on peut le comparer (même si le sens diffère un peu) à l'expression "ni chair ni poisson" ?
Sinon ca me fait penser à une chanson de Rise Against dont le titre pourrait s'appliquer ici, quoique plus négatif :  The good left undone.


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## gm9617d

Dear Stefan Ivanovich
You can't really say "they made a bungle Of it", unless you are trying to be mildly amusing.  You could say, "They bungled it"
GerryGM


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## Camis12

for ni du chair ni du poisson I think the english equivalent is
"it's neither here nor there" but I am not sure if that works.  Perhaps if missrapunzel could give us a whole sentance in French it would be easier to play around with?


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## sound shift

You could say _They've only half done the job._


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## fabfab

What do you think of the following?

_it's a loose end_


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## greygoose

Hi fabfab

A loose end..

Not really.  If something is 'left at a loose end' or you need to 'tie up any loose ends' it doesn't really refer to a job, but rather to a situation or the organisation of something.  Although it generally means that things are left unfinished, it doesn't really refer to a physical job.

Hope this helps.

GG


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## fabfab

Thank you greygoose for your detailed explanation.


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## Icetrance

Ce n'est ni fait ni à faire = it's neither done nor to be done

In other words, whatever it is in question, is not done nor it is ever going to be with whomever it is doing it.


In English, we'd say, _"it's just not supposed to get done right"_ (depending on the context). In the example given about not getting the dishes clean in the first post, this translation would work, imho.


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## wildan1

hunternet said:


> The point is, I think, to find an suitable image to say : "c'est du travail bâclé"


 
_It's *a botched job *_is more standard than _a half-assed job_

_slapdash job _also comes to mind


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## david314

wildan1 said:


> _It's *a botched job *_is more standard than _a half-assed job_
> 
> _slapdash job _also comes to mind


 I have reread these posts carefully, and I agree that the above is *_a serviceable_ translation. 

*I learned this application from our dear wildan1, as well as many other terms -high register stuff, you know.


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## funnyhat

I like to use the adjective _shoddy _to describe a poor bit of work.  "They turned in a shoddy effort."


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## Icetrance

Missrapunzel said:


> Hello,
> 
> how can I say : _*ce n'est ni fait ni à faire?*_
> That's something we say in french when something was really badly done. For example, if somebody washed something and the thing was still not clean in the end.
> 
> Literally, it would be _it's neither done nor to be done_ but I doubt that it is the equivalent.
> 
> Thanks!!


 
Why do I want to say "This just isn't supposed to be done right." Literally, "it's not done nor to be done." In other words, as it's been done so badly, I then ask the question, "Can it be done right at all?"

I always thought it meant not only that something wasn't done right, but as if it's not supposed to be, either (sarcastic). You get where I coming from?

That's why I said _"It's just not supposed to be done right"_ in my earlier posts (not "done right" and "not meant to be done right", either).


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## wildan1

If you mean that nobody could accomplish the task correctly (too complex, too expensive, too many risks) you can call it _"mission impossible"._


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## mgarizona

Yet ANOTHER option which came to mind:

"Well that's a wasted effort."


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## wildan1

mgarizona said:


> Yet ANOTHER option which came to mind:
> 
> "Well that's a wasted effort."


 
Or _"a fool's errand"_


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## Icetrance

I find the thread to be very interesting. 

No one yet seems to have the exact same understanding of the meaning of this French expression as I do. Sure, it does mean that the job was done "half-assed" (incomplete), but there's also this notion that it's as if the task at hand is not meant to get done. That's why the French says "ni à faire" (not meant to get done).

So, in the context given in the first post, my translation would be 
"They're just not meant/supposed to get done" (the dishes). I'm not sure I'd even put "get done right", because that idea is implied.

The phrasing will change somewhat in the English translation, depending on the context. But that's the idea, in my opinion.

ni fait ni à faire = not done and not meant to get done


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## wildan1

Icetrance said:


> ni fait ni à faire = not done and not meant to get done


 
Hi, icetrance.

Sorry, your explanation does not make any sense to me. You either do it or not... ??


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## Already-Seen

http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/ni-fait-ni-a-faire.php


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## mathiine

Icetrance said:


> I find the thread to be very interesting.
> 
> No one yet seems to have the exact same understanding of the meaning of this French expression as I do. Sure, it does mean that the job was done "half-assed" (incomplete), but there's also this notion that it's as if the task at hand is not meant to get done. That's why the French says "ni à faire" (not meant to get done).
> 
> So, in the context given in the first post, my translation would be
> "They're just not meant/supposed to get done" (the dishes). I'm not sure I'd even put "get done right", because that idea is implied.
> 
> The phrasing will change somewhat in the English translation, depending on the context. But that's the idea, in my opinion.
> 
> ni fait ni à faire = not done and not meant to get done



I think you get it wrong, _ni à faire _doesn't mean, in this expression,_ not meant to be done_. I know it is complex but this is the sort of expression you can't "decorticate" like that. It just doesn't mean anything, literally.
(take an example of weird expression : ça casse pas trois pattes à un canard = it's nothing extraordinary)

Otherwise I found this link : http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/ni-fait-ni-a-faire.php


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## Icetrance

wildan1 said:


> Hi, icetrance.
> 
> Sorry, your explanation does not make any sense to me. You either do it or not... ??


 
Sorry if I wasn't clear. 

It's not done, and it's not going to get done (so it seems). 

There's the idea that the unfinished task will be remain hopelessly unfinished. I'm not sure if any definition in French carries over that idea. I could be wrong, but every time I've heard it used, that does indeed seem to be the implication.



mathiine said:


> I think you get HAVE it wrong, _ni à faire _doesn't mean, in this expression,_ not meant to be done_. I know it is complex but this is the sort of expression you can't "decorticate" like that. It just doesn't mean anything, literally.
> (take an example of weird expression : ça casse pas trois pattes à un canard = it's nothing extraordinary)
> 
> Otherwise I found this link : http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/ni-fait-ni-a-faire.php


 
Merci Mathiine pour vos commentaires! 

Cette expression courante insiste sur l'inutilité, l'inefficacité du travail déjà effectué, et sur le refus probable d'une autre personne de reprendre ensuite le travail commencé. D'où ma traduction: It's just not supposed to get done

Si ce n'est le sens, je suis depuis toujours en erreur.


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## wildan1

Icetrance said:


> Merci Mathiine pour vos commentaires!
> 
> Cette expression courante insiste sur l'inutilité, l'inefficacité du travail déjà effectué, et sur le refus probable d'une autre personne de reprendre ensuite le travail commencé. D'où ma traduction: It's just not supposed to get done
> 
> Si ce n'est le sens, je suis depuis toujours en erreur.


 
Merci pour les explications, icetrance et Mathiine. J'avoue que je n'avais jamais entendu cette tournure avant ce fil.

Mais je ne vois franchement pas d'expression courante équivalente en anglais.

_This is a job nobody will touch with a ten-foot pole_ ?
(mais cela n'implique pas forcément que quelqu'un d'autre ait déjà essayé sans succès...)


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## Moon Palace

This is indeed an interesting thread. But to me, 'ni fait ni à faire' implies the person made a mess of it by trying to undertake the task and making things worse. Hence the idea that no one will want to deal with it. 
It is not done, but it is even more difficult now to do anything about it since what you have mishandled it totally right from the start. 
The adjective I had in mind from the beginning of my reading was 'half-baked' but I don't think it would really fit, although the idea of a lack of thoughtfulness in the undertaking is there.


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## JeanDeSponde

Moon Palace said:


> [...]to me, 'ni fait ni à faire' implies the person made a mess of it by trying to undertake the task and making things worse.


Entièrement d'accord avec MP.
_Ni fait ni à faire_ ne veux pas dire un travail à moitié fait - c'est effectivement un travail non seulement  inachevé, mais encore saboté, qu'on ne peut donc plus reprendre pour l'améliorer.


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## wildan1

_half-baked_ usually describes an idea or scheme--not necessarily one that is carried out

Base on JDS's further clarification, I would suggest

_this is an irreparable mess_
_this is messed/screwed/fucked up beyond repair_ (in order of vulgarity)


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## mgarizona

Well then: It's FUBAR!

(Army slang for Fucked Up Beyond All Repair/Recognition)


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## wildan1

mgarizona said:


> Well then: It's FUBAR!
> 
> (Army slang for Fucked Up Beyond All Repair/Recognition)


 
Or a SNAFU (situation normal--all fucked up)

These are both old GI terms from World War II. Not sure people under 30 would use them or even understand...


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## Icetrance

Ok! Here I go again:

ni fait = not done 
ni à faire = task at hand already started

The idea is that the task at hand has already been commenced, but it still not done the right way. It'd make more sense if the expression read "C'est fait, mais à refaire." 

OK, maybe the best translation would be: *It shouldn't have been started in the first place* (the task at hand)


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## Moon Palace

Icetrance said:


> That's why I suggested earlier "It's just not supposed to get done right" ( as the person did such an awful job, it's as if it ain't ever gonna get done right."



Well, I am not sure I agree with this, because here we don't get the idea it is somebody's fault when it actually is in French. How about then 'it is nowhere near being done right'?


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## Icetrance

Moon Palace said:


> Well, I am not sure I agree with this, because here we don't get the idea it is somebody's fault when it actually is in French. How about then 'it is nowhere near being done right'?


 
Or how about "It's just not supposed /meant to get done "? (said sarcastically and impatiently). That clearly implies that the job is not yet done and needs to be done the right way. At any rate, the adverb "right" is clearly implied ("done" and "right" LOL). So, I take back what I said)


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## laurasays

"they bungled it" means "they screwed it up"
I don't think that's what you mean. I think the best option is "I don't know why I even bothered!"

This sentence implies a clause at the end that you can add but don't need to add - essentially, it's "I don't know why I even bothered _to wash it in the first place_."


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## Icetrance

laurasays said:


> "they bungled it" means "they screwed it up"
> I don't think that's what you mean. I think the best option is "I don't know why I even bothered!"
> 
> This sentence implies a clause at the end that you can add but don't need to add - essentially, it's "I don't know why I even bothered _to wash it in the first place_."


 
I agree.

After thinking about it, " it shouldn't have been started in the first place" is the closest in meaning, imo.

The task at hand shouldn't been started in the first place.

En premier lieu, la tâche en question n'aurait jamais dû être commencée. Maintenant, il faut tout recommencer comme si rien n'a jamais été commencé.

The French is really saying "c'est fait, mais c'est à refaire." You did it, but not the right way at all. So now you have to do it all over again as if you never did it at all.


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## Moon Palace

To me, 'it's not supposed / meant to get done' doesn't hint at somebody's ill-chosen strategy. It rather points to the result. 'supposed / meant to' without an agent seeems to be speaking exclusively of the job instead of pointing to the person's mishandling.



Icetrance said:


> The French is really saying "c'est fait, mais c'est à refaire." You did it, but not the right way at all. So now you have to do it all over again as if you never did it at all.


 
In fact, it is worse than this: not only does it have to be totally redone, but what has been done needs to be undone, it is entangled now and even worse than it was before the person started dealing with it.


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## Icetrance

Moon Palace said:


> In fact, it is worse than this: not only does it have to be totally redone, but what has been done needs to be undone, it is entangled now and even worse than it was before the person started dealing with it.


 
According to your understanding, I would not say "botched job" as a translation. I have no clue as to what I'd say here.

You've made more work for yourself than when you started. That's why I initially said "it's just not supposed/meant to get done right" LOL

Perhaps, "what was the point of doing it?"


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## Moon Palace

No, Icetrance, it has nothing to do with the aim, it is all about the person whose attempt to carry out the task has only managed to make the task worse. 
'a botched job' seems the nearest to what it means.


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## wildan1

Moon Palace said:


> No, Icetrance, it has nothing to do with the aim, it is all about the person whose attempt to carry out the task has only managed to make the task worse.
> 'a botched job' seems the nearest to what it means.



_You've botched this job but good!_ comes to mind (now that I _think _I have understood this tortuous thread discussion!!)


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## clairet

trying to follow Moon Palace's line: "this job is worse than when we/you started"


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## JeanDeSponde

wildan1 said:


> _You've botched this job but good!_ comes to mind





clairet said:


> "This job is worse than when we/you started"


I like them both!


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## mgarizona

I wonder if the English "one step forward, two steps back" might apply. It applies to a situation in which what little progress has been made is more than erased in the process.


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## Punky Zoé

mgarizona said:


> I wonder if the English "one step forward, two steps back" might apply. It applies to a situation in which what little progress has been made is more than erased in the process.


I don't think so, we do say the same in French "un pas en avant, deux pas en arrière". That applies to something (or somebody) in progress which do not really go along.

That expression (very well explained by MP and JDS) is a tricky one. When using it, you mean you are unable to finish the task (or project or anything else) for some reason - it is bad/wrong done or you don't know the method (if any !) the former person in charge of it did use - and to restart at the begining you have to undo (if possible) what has been already done.


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## Icetrance

Moon Palace said:


> No, Icetrance, it has nothing to do with the aim, it is all about the person whose attempt to carry out the task has only managed to make the task worse.
> 'a botched job' seems the nearest to what it means.


 

In the right context, "What was the point of doing it?" would imply "you've only made it (the task) harder than it was."

The task/job is not meant to get done right = The job was so poorly done that anyone else who attempts to do it will have a hard time because it was a "botched" job. Who's going to want to play around with it now to fix it? LOL

My translations may only work in certain contexts. Again, translating without a context is very hard, especially with this expression.


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## JeanDeSponde

Icetrance said:


> In the right context, "What was the point of doing it?" would imply "you've only made it (the task) harder than it was."[...]


Icetrance, in the French expression, "ni à faire" does _not_ mean that there was no point in starting the job - though this is indeed what the words may seem to say!... It means that now the job can't even be pursued.


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## mgarizona

I've been trying to follow this thread--- which I hope I am not the only one to find 'tangled'--- in light of various uses of the phrase _ni fait ni à faire_ I've found online. Specifically there's an instance where Balzac condemns a Eugène Sue novel as _ni fait ni à faire._ It's clear he's not saying that Sue's work "now can't be pursued." The novel is already published.

As Already-seen pointed out a while ago, this bizarre phrase grows out of a punning on an old proverb: _Ce qui est fait n'est plus à faire_. A pun on a proverb: no wonder it's untranslatable!

English has the same proverb (calqued probably): The thing that's done is na to do.

(That 'na' is an old/Scots form of 'not')

The same punning would render "It's neither done nor to do" which is not very helpful in and of itself but which points to "It's neither done (in the sense, accomplished) nor should it ever be/have been done (in the sense, undertaken)" which seems to describe the general sentiment being expressed, even if it does so in an unlovely way.

As far as the Balzac is concerned at least I think that gets me close enough so I can understand his sniping.

As for the _travail_ _super-bâclé_: an attenuated idiomatic application of a pun on a proverb??? Good luck!


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## clairet

mgarizona said:


> _As Already-seen pointed out a while ago, this bizarre phrase grows out of a punning on an old proverb: *Ce qui est fait n'est plus à faire*. A pun on a proverb: no wonder it's untranslatable!_
> 
> _English has the same proverb (calqued probably): The thing that's done is na to do._
> 
> _(That 'na' is an old/Scots form of 'not') _
> _The same punning would render "It's neither done nor to do" which is not very helpful in and of itself but which points to "It's neither done (in the sense, accomplished) nor should it ever be/have been done (in the sense, undertaken)" which seems to describe the general sentiment being expressed, even if it does so in an unlovely way._
> 
> 
> 
> mgarizona, there's a current English version of the old proverb which seems to me closer to the meaning we're seeking:
> "what's done is done"
> which means that something bad has been done but there is no help for it, you can't go back to the beginning and start again as if the bad thing was never done; all you can (and must) do now is accept what has happened and move on.
> 
> Does this help us at all to understand the phrase which is apparently derived from the old proverb? We'd have to say something like "There's no undoing this botched job".
Click to expand...


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## mgarizona

I don't see those two idioms the same way. Nor did I understand the French idiom that way. While "what's done is done" expresses the sealed fate you describe, I would understand "the thing that's done is na to do" to mean that once you've completed a task you can move on to the next one, what's done can be crossed off your to-do list, as it were.

Like Elvis said, "You gotta do it till you're through it so you better get to it!"

(Stated in the full knowledge I may be mistaken. I have a penchant for desynonymization!)


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## clairet

OK, I may have gone off in the wrong direction.  This site

http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/ni-fait-ni-a-faire.php 

actually says (if I understand it right) that the expression is a *counter* *to/contradiction of* the old proverb (_*Ce qui est fait n'est plus à faire*.)_, i.e. saying that the job *isn't* completed - and *can't be* completed by continuing to do it in the same way.


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## Icetrance

clairet said:


> OK, I may have gone off in the wrong direction. This site
> 
> http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/ni-fait-ni-a-faire.php
> 
> actually says (if I understand it right) that the expression is a *counter* *to/contradiction of* the old proverb (_*Ce qui est fait n'est plus à faire*.)_, i.e. saying that the job *isn't* completed - and *can't be* completed by continuing to do it in the same way.


 
Originally, "ni fait, ni à faire" was used in reference to some job/task that has already started (ni à faire) and is incomplete (ni fait)

Nowadays, it refers to a job/task that was poorly done, but considered "finished" even though it's not really at all.

The last part of the definition says: "donc quelque chose qui n'est finalement pas vraiment fait" = something which ends up pretty much undone (in other words, the task/job really hasn't been completed at all)

No one understands on here where I'm coming from with the other translations, so I'm going to stop there (though, I don't agree with "what was the point?) I know the expression has nothing to do with "aim."

I might just say something like_ "an utter mess of a job"_

You could even say_ "it's not going to get done right now, is it?_ (because everthing so messed up)

"Botched job" reminds me of having surgery done.

ni fait = not done
ni à faire = can't be done

Je voudrais bien qu'on me dise ce que veut dire litéralement la partie "ni à faire" dans "ni fait, ni à faire"

ni fait,* ni à faire* = not done and *not supposed to get done*

They're telling me "à faire" has nothing to do with "is supposed to get done", but I can't make sense of it any other way. Can you?

Yes, I know that it means "it's worse now that when you started (botched job)".

The expression stems from the old proverb "Ce qui est fait n'est plus à faire." I think that means "What is done is done" (n'est plus à faire = there is nothing else that needs to be done)

It literally means that "it's not done, but it's already been started" (some action).

Why couldn't you just say "It's all messed/screwed up" (e.g., Le mécanicien a travaillé ma bagnole, mais maintenant ce n'est ni fait, ni à faire)?


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## sound shift

Maybe "This job was doomed from the word 'go'."


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## mgarizona

I think I understand JeanDeSponde's point now, even in light of Balzac. (The published novel is such that even re-editing and re-writing it would not help; one needs to begin over from scratch.)

And it makes me think of Yeats:

Deformed beyond deformity, unformed,
Insipid as the dough before it is baked.

As would apply to the idea at hand, something like

This is fucked, and way beyond unfucking it now
This is botched, and way beyond unbotching it now

or: This is fucked/botched and there's no unfucking/unbotching it now


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## Icetrance

Yes, I do understand what it means. It means that the job has been started, but it's not finished. Why? Because it was done so awfully.

Perhaps you could say "It's a total mess of a job" (you have to start from scratch because what has been done cannot be undone)

I also like: XX did a real job/number on my...(really messed it up)

Ma voiture, ce n'est ni fait, ni à faire = The mechanic did a real job/number on my car.


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## williamc

Bonjour,

"Don't even think of doing it."


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## franc 91

he/she's made a pig's ear of it - il y a aussi a dog's dinner


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## Leflipper

What about 'they made a right/complete hash of it'? I like franc 91's suggestions, they are along the same lines.


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## LV4-26

A tangled thread all right.

What I'm going to say has been said already but it was sort of lost in the middle of other contradictory statements.

This link was given but I'd like to give it again
http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/ni-fait-ni-a-faire.php

That page gives a clear and (as far as I'm concerned) accurate explanation of the phrase.

The important thing is that you shouldn't give too much importance to the _ni à faire_ part, if only because it tends to be misinterpreted by non natives and even in some cases by natives.

What it means is "OK, we can't really say it's yet to be done (_à faire_) as some work has been actually performed. But it's been done so badly that it's almost as if nothing had been done (_ni fait_)....since it will have to be done all over again if we're going to have a satisfying result. 

For instance, that's something you would say if you were taking a stained shirt out of the washing machine, seeing that the stains have faded but are still visible.

I'm not suggesting a translation but I think something along the lines of "it's only half done" or "it's not really done" or _I wouldn't (really) call that "done"_ would be fairly close to the original idea.


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## wistou

Sorry to add to a long thead, but my understanding is this one:

Ni fait: Job is not completely or not properly done (easy..)
Ni à faire : It is now not just a matter of doing or finishing the job, because it is now a complete mess.  Some un-doing will have to take place prior to being able to  re-start. (this is were interpretations differ).

Just to give a clear example of how it can be used: 
"Tu a repeint cette chaise sans la décaper d'abord ! C'est ni fait ni à faire !"  

..my 2 cents, regards.


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## Icetrance

Ça semble être fait, mais c'est bien à refaire, je dois dire (pour moi, ce de quoi il s'agit ici).

Mon conseil, c'est de ne pas considérer les mots de façon littérale; autrement vous allez finir par mal comprendre.


Ce lien-ci explique tout très bien.

http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/ni-fait-ni-a-faire.php


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## LV4-26

Icetrance said:


> Ça semble être fait, mais c'est bien à refaire, je dois dire (pour moi, ce de quoi il s'agit ici).
> 
> Mon conseil, c'est de ne pas considérer les mots de façon littérale; autrement vous allez finir par mal comprendre.
> 
> 
> Ce lien-ci explique tout très bien.
> 
> http://www.expressio.fr/expressions/ni-fait-ni-a-faire.php


Absolument, c'est pour cette raison que j'ai mis ce lien dans mon post. 
D'accord aussi pour ne pas avoir une approche littérale de l'expression.
Je pense, d'ailleurs, que tout francophone a dû avoir les mêmes hésitations que les non francophones la première fois qu'il a entendu cette expression (en général, au cours de l'enfance). Sauf, naturellement, quand il l'a entendu _*en situation*_ (ce qui est la manière la plus efficace d'apprendre une langue et ce qui est toujours le cas pour la langue maternelle).


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## Icetrance

LV4-26 said:


> Absolument, c'est pour cette raison que j'ai mis ce lien dans mon post.
> D'accord aussi pour ne pas avoir une approche littérale de l'expression.
> Je pense, d'ailleurs, que tout francophone a dû avoir les mêmes hésitations que les non francophones la première fois qu'il a entendu cette expression (en général, au cours de l'enfance). Sauf, naturellement, quand il l'a entendu _*en situation*_ (ce qui est la manière la plus efficace d'apprendre une langue et ce qui est toujours le cas pour la langue maternelle).


 

Je suis désole: je n'ai pas lu tous les posts du fil.


Je dirais que ce que vous avez dit est tout à fait juste.


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## hadronic

Bizarre, j'ai toujours dit "ni à faire ni à refaire", avec le même sens (situation finale bordélique dont on ne peut plus s'extirper facilement).


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## Icetrance

hadronic said:


> Bizarre, j'ai toujours dit "ni à faire ni à refaire", avec le même sens (situation finale bordélique dont on ne peut plus s'extirper facilement).



Oui, là vous avez raison. Ce que vous citez comme expression similaire et donc très synonyme est bel et bien très usité, je dois l'avouer.


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