# Joe Sixpack



## pgcharbo

Sarah Palin speaks of Joe Sixpack.   Is there an equivalent French expression?


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## pmqs

Is there an equivalent in British English?


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## Nickko

Could we say _Tous les "Monsieur Tout-le-monde" ?_ _Tous les Dupont ?__ 

Nous, tous les Bidochon_ would fit the meaning, but would not fit in the mouth of a potentially vice president to be_...
_


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## la grive solitaire

_un homme de la rue_ http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homme_de_la_rue


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## Nickko

After checking some of Palin's speeches, we would say "l'américain moyen", for Joe Sixpack.

Except if she speaks about Chippendales.... (see the "tablettes de chocolat" thread....)


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## Micia93

il me semblait que "Joe Sixpack" était assez péjoratif
Nickko parlait de "Bidochon" et c'est bien là l'idée d'un gros balourd qui boit des bières, avachi sur son fauteuil, en regardant un match de foot à la télé.
Effectivement, dans le contexte politique, cela semble bizarre, mais peut-être voulait-elle justement fustiger ce genre de personnes ??


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## wildan1

Micia93 said:


> il me semblait que "Joe Sixpack" était assez péjoratif
> Nickko parlait de "Bidochon" et c'est bien là l'idée d'un gros balourd qui boit des bières, avachi sur son fauteuil, en regardant un match de foot à la télé.
> Effectivement, dans le contexte politique, cela semble bizarre, mais peut-être voulait-elle justement fustiger ce genre de personnes ??


 
Tu l'as bien interprété Micia93--Monsieur Tout-le-Monde serait plutôt _John Q. American _or _"the man in the street"_

_Joe Sixpack_ se fait en plus un point d'honneur de l'être, et c'est cette tranche de la population, blanche, masculine et populaire qu'elle cible, car les sondanges montrent que ces _" beaufs américains "_ sont encore indécis sur leur choix aux présidentielles. Et c'est tout de même une jolie femme qui n'hésite pas de faire des clin d'oeils au public pendant ses interventions à la télé !


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## Moon Palace

Question: if this phrase is derogatory, what does it feel like for an American to be adressed this way by a potential vice-president? 
Because if we said '_les beaufs français'_, these very people would feel insulted and it would have a major backlash. 
This is why I would agree with Nickko's _'l'Américain moyen'_, as '_moyen' _is already belittling in itself, and yet not as disparaging as _'beaufs'. _imho.


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## Micia93

Moon Palace said:


> Question: if this phrase is derogatory, what does it feel like for an American to be adressed this way by a potential vice-president?
> Because if we said '_les beaufs français'_, these very people would feel insulted and it would have a major backlash.
> This is why I would agree with Nickko's _'l'Américain moyen'_, as '_moyen' _is already belittling in itself, and yet not as disparaging as _'beaufs'. _imho.


 
yes, but "les beaufs " don't realize they *are *"beaufs" and don't feel concerned by this expression ! 
and, by the way, "l'américain" or "le français" "moyen is derogative too ...


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## wildan1

Moon Palace said:


> Question: if this phrase is derogatory, what does it feel like for an American to be adressed this way by a potential vice-president?
> Because if we said '_les beaufs français'_, these very people would feel insulted and it would have a major backlash.
> This is why I would agree with Nickko's _'l'Américain moyen'_, as '_moyen' _is already belittling in itself, and yet not as disparaging as _'beaufs'. _imho.


 
Le terme _moyen_ dans un pays aussi diversifié ne donne pas grand-chose--moyen selon qui et dans quelle partie du pays ? Si on parle de la classe populaire en général, on ne peut pas dire qu'elle cible les 12 % de la population noire, pour la plupart "working-class", ni la plupart des Latinos qui forment maintenant près de 15 % de la population. Restent les 70 % de blancs, et parmi eux la classe populaire qui a bien voulu voter Bush la dernière fois mais qui ne sont pas forcément Républicains par conviction...


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## Moon Palace

Point taken, Wildan. How about _'le citoyen de l'Amérique profonde'?

_Edit: je n'ai rien contre _les beaufs_, si ce n'est le niveau de langue et l'aspect très péjoratif. Je ne pense pas que ce terme serait utilisé par un candidat dans un discours politique.


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## Grop

Après tout, pourquoi ne pas garder _Joe Sixpack_? C'est facile à comprendre je pense. Ou _Joe Six-Packs_, à la rigueur. En France on achète bien la bière par packs, nous aussi.

Edit: Je veux dire, si on cherche à traduire un discours s'appliquant à des Américains; je ne parle pas de trouver un équivalent s'appliquant à des Français.


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## pgcharbo

Merci à tous.
  Je pense qu'il est tout-à-fait juste quand Widlan1 dit, "_Joe Sixpack_ se fait en plus un point d'honneur de l'être, et c'est cette tranche de la population, blanche, masculine et populaire qu'elle cible, car les sondanges montrent que ces _" beaufs américains "_ sont encore indécis sur leur choix aux présidentielles.  Il me semble que "beauf" est trop péjoratif, cepandant.  Joe Sixpack après tout déteste le snobisme.  Il est fier de se voir comme "ordinaire."


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## Argyll

Bonjour,

_beauf_ est trop péjoratif, en effet; _ordinaire_ même ne serait pas un choix de terme qui pourrait rapporter beaucoup de voix à un(e) candidat(e).

Un politicien français pourrait en appeler aux gens _normaux_, aux gens _comme nous_, aux gens _d'en bas_ sans heurter son public, qui pourrait se reconnaître dans ces termes.


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## JeanDeSponde

Peut-être _le Français / l'Américain de base_ ?...


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## carolineR

Argyll said:


> Un politicien français pourrait en appeler aux gens _normaux_, aux gens _comme nous_, aux gens _d'en bas_ sans heurter son public, qui pourrait se reconnaître dans ces termes.


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## Micia93

Argyll said:


> Bonjour,
> 
> _beauf_ est trop péjoratif, en effet; _ordinaire_ même ne serait pas un choix de terme qui pourrait rapporter beaucoup de voix à un(e) candidat(e).
> 
> Un politicien français pourrait en appeler aux gens _normaux_, aux gens _comme nous_, aux gens _d'en bas_ sans heurter son public, qui pourrait se reconnaître dans ces termes.


 

tout-à-fait d'accord avec "gens normaux" et "gens comme nous", mais pas "gens d'en bas"
rappelle-toi Raffarin avec sa fameuse "France d'en bas" !


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## Argyll

Exact, je croyais me souvenir que c'était de Sarkozy et que donc on pouvait se faire élire avec ce genre de terme. Remarque, je ne suis pas sûr que la formule ait été un handicap pour Raffarin. Elle lui a permis d'arriver assez haut dans l'organigramme de l'état, et je pense que ma proposition de traduction reste défendable.


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## Micia93

Argyll said:


> Exact, je croyais me souvenir que c'était de Sarkozy et que donc on pouvait se faire élire avec ce genre de terme. Remarque, je ne suis pas sûr que la formule ait été un handicap pour Raffarin. Elle lui a permis d'arriver assez haut dans l'organigramme de l'état, et je pense que ma proposition de traduction reste défendable.


 
tout-à-fait Argyll !
le reste n'est qu'une question de sensibilité ...


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## david314

_le sel de la terre /the salt of the Earth?_


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## pgcharbo

_le sel de la terre /the salt of the Earth?

En un sens, oui, mais ce n'est pas toute l'histoire.  
Pourrait-on dire tout simplement,
Jojo Colbleu?
_


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## Argyll

The salt of the earth, ce n'est pas vraiment la même source d'inspiration que le 6-pack...

Quand à Jojo Colbleu, je le vois bien dans une BD à côté de Lucien et de sa meule, mais il faudra qu'il se fasse sa place dans la langue française.


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## pgcharbo

une BD à côté de Lucien et de sa meule...

mille pardons, mais je n'y comprends rien.


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## Argyll

Une BD, c'est une bande dessinée. Dans les années 80, le dessinateur Frank Margerin avait créé un personnage de rocker, Lucien, qui se déplaçait sur une vieille mobylette (_moped_) qu'il appelait familièrement sa _meule_. On peut le voir ici : http://j.seguin.free.fr/margerin_bd.htm. C'est le personnage en blouson noir.


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## Corsicum

« Un lambda » : Un peu péjoratif, non ?
« Le commun des mortels… lambda »


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## seadew

Il y avait une chanson il y a longtemps en anglais "Norman Normal". Il s'adapt peut-être mal ici à cause de l'association avec la Normandie. Mais, voilà l'idée!


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## seadew

Here he is in living color: http://www.lolpix.com/_pics/Funny_Pictures_398/Funny_Pictures_3982.jpg
I have tried to find the exact rule about posting links, without success. Hope this is allowed. It's just funny.


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## pgcharbo

Je vous remercie tous!  Joe Sixpack sait bien lancer une discussion!

Merci, Argyll.


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## Moon Palace

I have just found this sentence in an article from the Economist, portraying John Mac Cain, and here it goes: 
"Mr McCain is rich because he ditched his first wife for an heiress, which somewhat undermines his Joe Sixpack image."

I thought it might be useful, and to me here it would indeed be _'l'Américain de base / l'Américain ordinaire / le citoyen de l'Amérique profonde'. _What do you think?


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## Cath.S.

Moon Palace said:
			
		

> which somewhat undermines his Joe Sixpack image."





Nickko said:


> Could we say _Tous les "Monsieur Tout-le-monde" (...) ?_


Dans le contexte que vient de donner Moon Palace, je trouve que c'est une bonne solution.

Ma proposition :
_ce qui nuit un peu à son image d'homme du peuple._


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## Moon Palace

egueule said:


> _ce qui nuit un peu à son image d'homme du peuple._


 
Your modesty honours you, egueule, but in my context this one is spot on.


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## seadew

Sorry but I can't agree. This term is far more emotionally charged than 'homme du peuple'. Joe Sixpacks are proud of this appellation but for those outside the group (many of whom are just as blue-collar or however you want to express it) it's highly pejorative. It implies vulgarity and a lot more. Cheers


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## Moon Palace

seadew said:


> Sorry but I can't agree. This term is far more emotionally charged than 'homme du peuple'. Joe Sixpacks are proud of this appellation but for those outside the group (many of whom are just as blue-collar or however you want to express it) it's highly pejorative. It implies vulgarity and a lot more. Cheers


 
Yes, Seadew, we have seen that in the previous discussion on this thread, but here, talking about a potential president-to-be, we couldn't be too disaparaging, could we? And what's more, '_homme du peuple'_ is not that nice when you think about it. So I would say it is a happy medium, probably not as derogatory as the original (but is this meant in this sentence? It seems John Mac Cain takes pride in appearing as a Joe Sixpack, and I wouldn't suppose this is for the implicit scorn), but close to it.


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## seadew

I guess I grew up with the credo government "of the people, by the people for the people" and have hard time envisioning that term as a slam, certainly in this instance. Mr McCain thinks he needs this group to win but, as your article notes, his credibility on that score is very low. Best wishes


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## Moon Palace

seadew said:


> I guess I grew up with the credo government "of the people, by the people for the people" and have hard time envisioning that term as a slam, certainly in this instance. Mr McCain thinks he needs this group to win but, as your article notes, his credibility on that score is very low. Best wishes


 
This is surely because you are supposed not to have class struggle..  And what's more, yours is not Marx's continent..


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## Cath.S.

Wikipedia quotes Joe Sixpack is the same list as 
Joe Blow, John Doe, Jane Doe, John Q. Public, Joe Schmoe, *Joe Sixpack*, John Smith, Eddie Punchclock (for blue-collar workers), Joe Benotz, Joe Botts (particularly in New York City etc.
Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Doe

Je ne retrouve nullement ici l'accusation implicite de vulgarité contenue dans beauf ou Bidochon, ces termes insistent plutôt sur le côté ordinaire, anonyme d'une personne.


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## Gargamelle

seadew said:


> I guess I grew up with the credo government "of the people, by the people for the people" and have hard time envisioning that term as a slam, certainly in this instance. Mr McCain thinks he needs this group to win but, as your article notes, his credibility on that score is very low. Best wishes


 
I agree with this...I never thought of "Joe Sixpack" as a derogatory term.  It refers to a certain demgraphic group, as discussed.  But I would say it's descriptive, and even affectionate, rather than derogatory, although it can be used a a put-down.  Joe Sixpack is the ordinary white guy, usually (but not necessarily) blue collar who tries to support his family, likes (American) football, enjoys a beer now and then.  I know quite a few guys like that.  My brother, for example, even though he's an engineer and therefore a professional and a college graduate.  There's a strain of the American character that celebrates the  "regular" person, and Americans like to think of ourselves a "regular people."  Think of Walt Whitman, Carl Sandberg, Aaron Copeland.  Maybe it's reverse snobbery.  It's also the idea that everyone is just as good as everyone else, and that I'm no better than you, whatever my income or education. And Joe Sixpack is proud to drink good ol' American beer and not wine like an effete snob. 

...which is good transition to make into the idea that there are two sides to the image.  It's true that Sarah Palin's "Joe Sixpack" is a white, middle-income guy who drinks (American) beer (most likely Budweiser) from a sixpack of cans and voted for Bush last time.  But it's not necessarily derogatory, and it doesn't always have the specific political connotation.

As for it not being the type of expression a vice-presidential candidate would use, actually, I think it's exactly the kind of expression an American candidate would use, or the image he or she would try to project.  Joe Biden, the Democratic VP candidate, emphasizes his humble beginnings in Scranton, PA and how much he thinks about families sitting around the kitchen table talking about how they're going to make the mortgage payment now that their heating bills have gone up, etc, etc.  Both parties are trying to get Joe Sixpack's vote, so they're playing up their Joe Sixpack credentials.

Gargamelle


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## wildan1

_Joe Sixpack_ is an insider/outsider word in some cases, too. Those who are one are proud of it while those who aren't use it as a put-down.

Now this debate is expanded since the last US presidential debate (Oct. 15) discussed _"Joe the Plumber"_ -- who according to McCain isn't going to survive the financial crisis because of taxes on the small entrepreneur... 

(My last experience with a plumber was not cheap--and it seems unlikely to me that the financial crisis is going to slow down people needing to fix a toilet or leaking pipe! But I digress...)


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## yourmindisaradio

Monsieur Machin ? Le franchouillard ? Le Franco-Français ?


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## Gargamelle

...and there are those, like me, who harbor a certain affection for the idea of Joe Sixpack, even though I'm sooooo not Joe Sixpack: wrong gender, wrong education, wrong profession, wrong preferences in alcohol and entertainment...and I even speak French!


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## Nickko

I like Seadew's hilarious illustration of the quote! It should help a lot ... :





seadew said:


> Here he is in living color: http://www.lolpix.com/_pics/Funny_Pictures_398/Funny_Pictures_3982.jpg
> I have tried to find the exact rule about posting links, without success. Hope this is allowed. It's just funny.



What about : "Nous, les Dupont, les Durand, les Martin..." 
(sorry for them), but these names in French are quite common and suggest we're talking about common people.


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## Nicomon

Nickko said:


> What about : "Nous, les Dupont, les Durand, les Martin..."
> (sorry for them), but these names in French are quite common and suggest we're talking about common people.


 That may work in France, but in Quebec you'll find more  _Côté_ and _Tremblay_.

I personally would say _ le monde/les gens ordinaires _ or _monsieur/madame Tout-le-Monde._ To me, a Joe Sixpack is _un gars (ben) ordinaire _.


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## seadew

It is interesting to compare Sarah Palin's "Joe Sixpack" with Obama's "average American", one is exclusive the other inclusive. Each describes the candidate's own roots. They have become code words for two camps that see the US in very different lights (the-other-guy-is-not-like-us sixpackers or we-are-all-in-the-same-boat others), thus their current emotional charge. 
I'm just beginning to get a feel for the word Franchouillard but that's really the idea!
Cheers to all, this has been enlightening.


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## Cath.S.

Seadew, _*f*ranchouillard_ is a put-down and you won't find one single person in France who describes themselves as such.


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## Staarkali

Micia93 said:


> [...]Nickko parlait de "Bidochon" et c'est bien là l'idée [...]


In that way, I will suggest *Tartempion*, see more here (English page)


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## Nicomon

Staarkali said:


> In that way, I will suggest *Tartempion*, see more here (English page)


   I like it.  And it works for both sides of the Atlantic.


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