# Countable, uncountable: broccoli, orange



## susantash

Hi everyone!

There are some things about countable and uncountable nouns that really got me confused:
For example: You can count broccoli, you can say one broccoli, two broccolies etc; but you would say I love broccoli, right?
And with "oranges" for example? You would say: "I love oranges" Why not "I love orange"?
I know sometimes a noun can be countable and uncountable at the same time, but I don't know in which occasions it would be one or the other.

I'd appreciate it a lot if someone could explain this to me.
Thanks a lot!!


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## maxiogee

You cannot count broccoli - one can count stems of broccoli, and heads of celery and other overall terms for the form in which certain vegetables are sold.

I love orange is not specific enough. It could refer to the colour, or to the juice ("I love apple" would almost always be understood to be the flavour, here in Ireland).


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## GenJen54

I agree with Maxiogee. 

Broccoli is an "exception" to the rule, as are lettuce, cauliflower, celery and other "bunched" vegetables.  One would say a "head of broccoli," "head of cauliflower," "head of lettuce" and "stalk of celery." 

However, cabbage, which also comes in "heads," is countable.  Go figure. 

As for orange, if you are talking about the fruit, what you are really saying is "I like (the taste of / eating) xxxxxxxxx,"  the answer to which can only *generally *be in the countable form, unless no countable form exists.

(And yes, there are exceptions to this, too.  Melon(s), for example.  Tricky business, this English).


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## french4beth

susantash said:
			
		

> For example: You can count broccoli, you can say one *piece/serving of* broccoli, two *pieces/servings of* broccoli broccolies etc; but you would say I love broccoli, right? *yes*
> And with "oranges" for example? You would say: "I love oranges" Why not "I love orange" *(this would refer to the color orange)*?
> I know sometimes a noun can be countable and uncountable at the same time, but I don't know in which occasions it would be one or the other.


A lot of nouns can be both, depending on if you're referring to the item in general, or individually:
*water* - "Water covers planet earth." vs. "The waters of the lake gently rolled in to the shore." or "Poirier sells many different bottled water*s*."
*flour* - "This recipe calls for two cups of flour.' vs. "I used several different flour*s* in this bread - quinoa, amaranth, and spelt."
*wine* - "I just had a glass of wine; Pinot Noir is sooo delicious." and "Ice wine is one of the few wine*s* prepared using grapes frozen on the vine."

Hope this helps!


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## marget

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> I agree with Maxiogee.
> 
> Broccoli is an "exception" to the rule, as are lettuce, cauliflower, celery and other "bunched" vegetables. One would say a "head of broccoli," "head of cauliflower," "head of lettuce" and "stalk of celery."
> 
> However, cabbage, which also comes in "heads," is countable. Go figure.


 
I could be wrong, but I would tend to say "I bought two heads of cabbage".  Is this acceptable?  Would you say "I bought two cabbages"?


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## Lori15

In England we would tend to say I bought two cabbages
L


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## prof d'anglais

I've just taught a class of French students and we can't decide whether broccoli is countable or uncountable either. If cabbage and cauliflower is countable, why shouldn't broccoli. But I can't ever remember seeing  a whole broccoli, only loose, by the kilo, in a packet, therefore uncountable. My students assure me that on French markets one can buy a whole broccoli. A little clarification please.


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## sdgraham

We raise a lot of broccoli in our garden, but I have no idea what a "whole broccoli" might be.

Obviously, broccoli doesn't have a large head as do cabbages and cauliflower, so it doesn't lend itself to being treated as a countable noun.

I suggest you treat it like spaghetti

I suspect your students might be putting you on, or however they say that in French.


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## prof d'anglais

I'm obviously going to have to take a trip down to the market, to confirm for myself now. One of my students is the town mayor, not renown for his for his leg-pulling. Could there be a difference between American broccoli and European? Google images wasn't much help here either.


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## JustKate

As far as I know, a connected cluster of broccoli stems and tops (the thing that looks a lot like a tree) is called a _head_. The pieces you cut from it are called _florets_. You can have several heads of broccoli or any number of florets, but broccoli in and of itself is uncountable. And I agree that there really isn't such a thing as a "whole broccoli." The way one usually buys broccoli is by the pound (or weight measurement of choice).


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## sdgraham

prof d'anglais said:


> Could there be a difference between American broccoli and European?



None that I've seen.

Take a look at this photo of a flowering broccoli plant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Broccoli_flowers_2525385935_e13d4de4c4_b.jpg

It could well be that they're calling one flower "a broccoli," but that's not the way we do it.


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## prof d'anglais

I've also heard of a bouquet of broccoli (a head) and a sprig of broccoli (individual florets). So a connected cluster/head/bouquet could be countable. But maybe my students were referring to romanesco broccoli. Does that grow in America?


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## sdgraham

prof d'anglais said:


> So a connected cluster/head/bouquet could be countable.



Indeed, cluster, head, bouquet, spring, bunch, heap, pile, etc. are all countable nouns, just as you can have plates, boxes, cartons, bowls, etc. of spaghetti.

... but that doesn't make either broccoli or spaghetti countable.

Note that our dictionary here even makes broccoli uncountable in French botanically and treats it as a plural noun in the culinary sense.

*broccoli* / ˈbrɒkəlɪ/_noun_(_noncountable_)_Bot_ brocoli _m_;
_Culin_ brocolis _mpl_.


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## JustKate

prof d'anglais said:


> I've also heard of a bouquet of broccoli (a head) and a sprig of broccoli (individual florets). So a connected cluster/head/bouquet could be countable. But maybe my studets were referring to romanesco broccoli. Does that grow in America?



It's sold in America - not sure if it's grown here, but it's for sale here, and it's not countable either. Neither is cauliflower. Or celery. With all of these, you can count the specific units (bunches or stalks of celery, heads of cauliflower and broccoli), but not the item itself. SD's comparison to spaghetti is really, really apt here!


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## prof d'anglais

I'm not sure how spaghetti entered the equation, I can't imagine how one would purchase or cook a single spaghetti, a strand perhaps, but not a spaghetti. However, the notion of popping down to the market to buy a Romanesco broccoli, seems to be credible, particularly as one doesn't buy Romanesco loose.
A cluster/head/bouquet could refer to one broccoli. The others in the list are irrelevant and I suspect were only included as a joke. But I'm very serious about this and my students deserve a real explanation. "I'm going to market to buy a (head of) broccoli". Why not!


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## prof d'anglais

I'm sorry but cauliflower is sold individually. I need one cauliflower please. Cauliflowers are not weighed.


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## sdgraham

prof d'anglais said:


> But I'm very serious about this and my students deserve a real explanation. "I'm going to market to buy a (head of) broccoli". Why not!



Prof, we know you're serious ... and so are we, although I'm not above interjecting a bit of attempted humor in an effort to make a point.

Why not? *Because we don't say it that way*. (The ultimate answer to many things involving the English language)

But, if you've already made up your mind, I don't see why you bothered to ask.


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## JustKate

prof d'anglais said:


> I'm sorry but cauliflower is sold individually. I need one cauliflower please. Cauliflowers are not weighed.



No, if you want your students to speak idiomatic English, you'll tell them to say "I need one head of cauliflower, please." Cauliflower may or may not be weighed, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that, as SD has explained, we simply do not say "cauliflowers" or "broccolis," any more than we say "spaghettis." That is simply not the way these things are said in English. Every language has its idiomatic oddities, and this is one of those in English. You can tell them anything you want, of course, but if you tell them "cauliflowers" or "broccolis" is idiomatic, you will be wrong. And I am quite serious about that.


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## lucas-sp

Broccoli is like yogurt or milk, right? It's kind-of a unified mass (at the market there are big baskets of the stuff, and you take as much as you want, and really it's all pretty much the same), and we buy a pound of broccoli, or a few heads of broccoli, or just some broccoli.

In France, there is a concept of "a broccoli." To a French person, "a broccoli" would be the rather large mass consisting of a stalk and all the florets/crowns attached to it. That's why your students have a different idea of what the word means than you do. You just have to explain that we don't see it that way. (Americans would think of "broccoli" as denoting florets of about 2 inches in length; a French person would probably think of "a broccoli" as a large, branching vegetable the size of a hand.) It's a cultural difference. There's nothing a priori countable or uncountable. They're just two different ways we think about differentiating or defining objects.

Now, I would say "a cauliflower" or "a romanesco." But I would also buy them by weight (they're weighed here). Obviously I would say "a cabbage" and "a lettuce." But would I say "a chard" or "a kale"? Nope. I wouldn't even say "a brussels sprouts" to refer to the stalk.


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## JustKate

I would almost never say "a lettuce" - lettuce is for me (and I think most other AmE speakers as well) uncountable. The only time I'd say "a lettuce" is if I were differentiating among different kinds of lettuce, e.g., "I like a lettuce that's a little bit bitter." Other than that, it would be a bunch or head of lettuce, depending on the type of lettuce, or else just "lettuce." I think that's the way with cauliflower as well - the only time I'd say "a cauliflower" is when referring to different sorts, and how often does that happen?

You're of course right that there is no right or wrong way to think about countable and uncountable nouns. There is in most cases no logic to it. It just comes down to idiom...
."
But for English, it's a very *uniform* idiom. It's just "I want broccoli" or perhaps "I want the broccoli," but never "I want a broccoli" - not if you want to sound idiomatic.


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## prof d'anglais

Unfortunately, the only contributors, so far, have been American speakers. I desperately need to hear from English speakers. 
1. In English we most certainly do say a lettuce or twenty lettuces - a cauliflower or twenty cauliflowers.
<< Not necessary. >>
3. I asked this question with an open mind. However the only arguments, thus far, have been less than conclusive.
4. I did not request idioms. I need a straight answer to a straight question. Facetiousness is no way to prove a point.
5. My students are more interested in learning English, not American. There appears to be language and cultural anomaly here. "Because we don't say it that way" doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the English speaking world doesn't.


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## JustKate

You may very well be right that there are AmE-BE differences here - the idioms are not always the same between the two forms of English, after all. So I hope you get the feedback you're looking for from BE speakers, and I look forward to reading it.

However, I don't understand why you don't want to discuss idioms. In questions in which there is no logical right and wrong answer - and there are *seldom* right and wrong answers to questions of countable vs. uncountable nouns; all there is is what's customary - idiom is all we've got. Even if every other language in the world talks about _broccolis_, for example, that doesn't mean that English has to. If broccoli is uncountable in English, it is uncountable. That's all there is to it. If broccoli is countable in French, it is countable. That's all there is to it. That's as straight an answer as I can give you, and I'm sorry if it caused you any offense.


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## prof d'anglais

No, please don't misunderstand me JustKate and it certainly wasn't you that gave offence - when other contributors are unable to prove their argument, they unfortunately resort to personal rudeness. I love idioms too, but as a separate subject. We were amazed at how many English and French idioms are almost identical. A bull in a china-shop is an elephant in French. The question of the broccoli arose from an Oxford University Press publication, I use, that declared broccoli as uncountable, whereupon the entire class argued that broccoli is most certainly countable. I came into the forum for constructive advice. But as you say JustKate, I may just have to accept that different cultures, different languages, each has it's own anomalies and allow the French to count their broccoli.


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## JustKate

With countable vs. uncountable, it's all in how you look at it - whatever "it" may be. There are things that are clearly uncountable, at least under most circumstances (e.g., wool, milk and beef), and there are things that are clearly countable, at least under most circumstances (e.g., apples, photographs and cars). But then there are those things that are in that gray area, and why some end up in the countable camp and others in the uncountable camp is sometimes just one of those little mysteries.

If I had to guess, and guesses may be all we've got, I'd guess that broccoli is uncountable in English because when it's served at table, it's no longer in the bunch or head or whatever you call the thing you got at the grocery store. It's just this bowl full of broccoli. In addition, that thing you buy at the store is hardly uniform - a head of cabbage (and cabbage is countable in my lexicon) is more...more _distinct_ and identifiable than is a head of broccoli. In contrast, pork chops are still clearly pork chops even after they're cooked. I'm sure there are examples in French that are as inexplicable to non-French speakers as English's stubborn insistence that broccoli is uncountable is to your students. It might be fun for them to consider some of their own "uncountable" nouns.


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## prof d'anglais

Considering some of their own uncountable nouns is an excellent idea, thank you JustKate. A couple of them were still having difficulties getting their heads round why is wine uncountable although we can count bottles of wine, so it will be a fun and supportive exercise. Particularly as the town mayor is one of my students and he loves comparing all things French with their English counterparts. The Romanesco broccoli is almost as popular as 'standard' broccoli and as you know it's even more solid than a cauliflower, therefore I think I can accept why the French consider it countable.
Thank you JustKate, for your informative and helpful advice. You've restored my faith.


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## lucas-sp

I think that when Kate spoke of "idiom," she was talking about the normal or characteristic way things are said or written in English.

It's interesting to find that there are regional differences within AE, as well as differences between AE and BE. (For instance, in California we call it a Romanesco _cauliflower_!) That just goes to show that whether nouns are countable or uncountable is not just a matter of perspective but of tradition and, well, of idiom. Personally, I don't think there's any rigorous logic here. Broccoli and cabbage appear to me to be limit-cases of vegetable counting, where there is no clear-cut rule-based decision and where cultural tradition has to take over.

Since it was an OUP book that listed broccoli as "uncountable," I would assume that broccoli is uncountable in BE as well as AE. The OUP is a pretty British authority on British English.

<< Response to deleted comment. >>


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## Loob

I agree that _broccoli_ is still considered as uncountable in BrE.  I suspect that's because it derives from an Italian plural noun and it's still not 100% naturalised in English.

OED:
*Etymology:*  			 <  Italian _broccoli_, plural of _broccolo_  cabbage-sprout or top, diminutive of _brocco_  shoot or stalk (see broach n.1).


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## Imber Ranae

Loob said:


> I agree that _broccoli_ is still considered as uncountable in BrE.  I suspect that's because it derives from an Italian plural noun and it's still not 100% naturalised in English.



What about cauliflower and lettuce?


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## lucas-sp

Loob said:


> I agree that _broccoli_ is still considered as uncountable in BrE.  I suspect that's because it _derives from an Italian plural noun_ and it's still not 100% naturalised in English.


I think that is also what sdgraham was pointing out when he mentioned "spaghetti."

Of course, just because it comes from an Italian _plural_ doesn't mean it can't be double-pluralized in English: just look at the Frankenword _paninis_. (I can't stand that, but I don't think anyone else is going to say "panino" and "panini" with me.)


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## Loob

lucas-sp said:


> I think that is also what sdgraham was pointing out when he mentioned "spaghetti."


Yes, I'm sure you (and he!) are right.


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## velisarius

<< Response to deleted post. >> It was interesting to me to learn that in the U.S.lettuces,cauliflowers and broccoli are considered uncountable. Where I live there are two types of broccoli available: one is a large head like a cauliflower, the other consists of smaller florets. I always consider the large-head type as countable, though the plurality of "broccoli" makes me uncomfortable with "one broccoli". Since all three vegetables are things I usually buy in multiples, I find it natural to say "I need two lettuces, a cauliflower and a couple of broccoli". Once the stuff is cooked or chopped up in salad, then it all becomes uncountable:"Would you like some more cauliflower? Have some of this broccoli."

In my experience whether the vegetable is weighed makes no difference. Spinach (uncountable) is weighed and so are (countable) pears.


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## Loob

velisarius said:


> .Where I live there are two types of broccoli available: one is a large head like a cauliflower, the other consists of smaller florets.


I think that's an important point: I don't think I've come across a large-headed version*, which might be another reason why I couldn't say "a broccoli", though I could certainly say "a cabbage", "a cauliflower" or "a lettuce".

------

* This could, in part, be a naming issue.  My local farm shop calls the pretty Romanesco vegetable  "Romanesco cauliflower", not "Romanesco broccoli".


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## velisarius

Interesting thought Loob, but that's not it. Our broccoli, and as far as I recollect, English broccoli, have/has a very attractive deep mauve colour and is very like a cauliflower otherwise.


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## George French

It does look like the Pond is responsible for more "wierdos" in the English language than I ever imagined.

In my UK English I generally only buy one cauliflower because that is enough, two cauliflowers would be a waste. I don't think I have ever bought other than one or two florets of broccoli at any one time, one pays by weight of course. Collis are bought at unit cost, with the leaves on.

Florets of either are sold by weight.

GF..

But we all have our own language quirks....


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## JustKate

I can, and do, say "a lettuce," but not in reference to quantity. I would use "a lettuce" only in reference to a variety of lettuce, e.g., "A red-leaf lettuce would be very pretty in this salad." For quantity, I refer to a "head of lettuce" if it's a type of lettuce that grows in heads, or a "bunch of lettuce" if it's one of the looser-leaved kind. But mostly I just talk about lettuce: "If you're going to the store, could you get us some lettuce?"

Cabbage is definitely countable in my lexicon (though now I'm wondering if that's due to Lewis Carroll, "Of cabbages and kings"?), but even there, I'd be more likely to refer to "heads of cabbage."


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## wandle

Google has plenty of references to lettuces, meaning the individual plants, in phrases such as 'grow lettuces' and 'plant lettuces'.


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## JustKate

Naturally it does. I said _I_ don't generally refer to _lettuces_ - I didn't say it wasn't allowed. 

In contrast, there don't appear to be very many genuine references to _broccolis_, though of course there are some.


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## Keith Bradford

Different countries, different plants, different grammar usage.  After all, in America you have eggplants!  But for this Brit:

One lettuce, two lettuces...
One cauliflower, two cauliflowers... (if you can bear to eat that much)
One broccoli, two heads of broccoli... (no, it isn't logical.  Go to a maths website if you want logic.)

Typically, here in France, broccoli is in solid heads that make about 3 servings; that photo in #11 has gone to seed!


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## JustKate

For this American, _eggplant_ is also uncountable. I can't speak for all of my countrymen, though. Besides, though there is very little logic in countable vs. uncountable when it comes to produce, there is a little bit, and that little bit tells me that _eggplants_ ought to be perfectly acceptable to me. It isn't, but maybe that's my problem.


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## lucas-sp

Wait, "eggplant" is uncountable? That's amazing! Even the tiny (2-3 inch) Thai or Indian eggplants?

I woke up in the middle of the night, unable to decide whether "squash" was countable or not. (The OED tells me that "squash" is originally a plural from an American Indian language, actually, which might be relevant here.) I think I would count different varieties of squash ("We grow three squashes on this farm: butternut, kabocha, and acorn") but I wouldn't count individual units of squash ("Can you get me two butternut squash, please?"). I really don't know if this is correct or not.

I agree with Kate: if there are rules and logic to counting produce, they are hardly exhaustive or determinative in all cases. There are so many instances where the (un)countability of a produce will be decided based on cultural custom ("idiom") or even personal preference.

After all, it's entirely possible where I live to count milk, as in "Can you get a milk on your way home?", where "a milk" means "a thing of milk."


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## prof d'anglais

From everyone's comments I hope I'm correct in summarising this thread in this way:


1. Whilst in BrE, France and the rest of the world, lettuce and cauliflower are considered countable, in AmE they are not.
2. In France broccoli is considered countable, perhaps because of the popularity of Romanesco broccoli, a vegetable not unlike lettuce and cauliflower, whereas the loose stalk variety is considered uncountable by everyone.


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## JustKate

We did have one AmE speaker (Lucas-sp in post #19) who says he talks about "a cauliflower." Other than that, your summary looks pretty good to me.


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## velisarius

You have another vote for broccoli as uncountable in English: I've just found out that what I've always thought of as (countable) large-headed broccoli is in fact a hybrid of cauliflower known as Violet Queen. My humble apologies.


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## Ashed

prof d'anglais said:


> From everyone's comments I hope I'm correct in summarising this thread in this way:
> 
> 
> 1. Whilst in BrE, France and the rest of the world, lettuce and cauliflower are considered countable, in AmE they are not.
> 2. In France broccoli is considered countable, perhaps because of the popularity of Romanesco broccoli, a vegetable not unlike lettuce and cauliflower, whereas the loose stalk variety is considered uncountable by everyone.





*[A]* There is in some cases not a strict logical correspondence between referents and the grammatical behaviour of their corresponding nouns with regard to discreteness, even when such would seem fairly obvious. eg: 

water is nondiscrete by nature (ignoring individual-molecule notions) and the noun 'water' is noncount except for certain specialised usages

furniture / clothing / ammunition / cutlery ... are discrete by nature but the nouns are still treated as noncount



*  This opens the possibility for inconsistencies in the language (and its varieties - also true for other languages). eg:

'vegetables': referent discrete, noun count // 'fruit': referent discrete, noun noncount in culinary domain

German word for 'vegetables' is noncount

US usage (generally) considers the words 'lettuce' and 'cauliflower' noncount; UK usage allows for count nouns.




[C] 


The same word may be used (and this may vary region by region) as either a count or a noncount noun as the context 'suggests'.

From http://www.uta.edu/faculty/stvan/stvan98_ch2.pdf :

One problem with diagnostics ... [to differentiate mass and count nouns] however, is that depending on the situation, many nouns can be used as either a mass or a count form. These mass/count alternations result in “dual words,” with meanings produced by a number of types of metonymy (see Jespersen 1924:198-201).

[examples: (1) food nouns:] 

mass use a great deal of apple / some potato / not much chicken
count use three apples / some potatoes / many chickens*


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