# Tor / طور - Tour / Turris / Tower



## إسكندراني

Do all of these share a common root? The first two (Gaelic, Welsh, Old English / Arabic) mean 'rocky mountain', the last three (French / Latin / English) mean 'lofty structure'.


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## origumi

You can add to the list Aramaic _tur_ / _tura_ and Hebrew _tzur_, meaning as in Arabic, derived from Semitic root t-w-r.


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## rayloom

Arabic ṭūr might actually be borrowed from Aramaic. Because if we analyse the Hebrew and Aramaic cognates, we would find that while the Aramaic word starts with a ט ط ܛ /ṭ/, the Hebrew cognate starts with a   ص צ/ṣ/. Which would hint to the existence of a Proto-form ṱūr, which if there were a cognate in Arabic, would be reflected as ẓūr ظور (which doesn't exist in Arabic).
I could be wrong of course. But consider for example the cognates for "shadow" in the (Central) Semitic languages:
Hebrew صل צל ṣel (transliteration, but pronounced in Modern Hebrew as tzel (or tsel))
Aramaic טללא ܛܠܠܐ ṭillā
ِArabic ظلّ ẓill-
Ugaritic ẓll
Suggesting a Proto-Semitic ṱil(v)l- (Also see here)

As for the IndoEuropean words, etymonline suggests a borrowing from a "pre-I.E. Mediterranean language".
As I understand it, that means a language predating IE in the Mediterranean region (i.e. was not IndoEuropean). However, the wikipedia entry "Tower" says the same thing but links "pre-Indo-European Mediterranean language" to "Proto-Indo-European_language"!
¿Did I misunderstand things?


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## aruniyan

rayloom said:


> Arabic ṭūr might actually be borrowed from Aramaic. Because if we analyse the Hebrew and Aramaic cognates, we would find that while the Aramaic word starts with a ט ط ܛ /ṭ/, the Hebrew cognate starts with a   ص צ/ṣ/. Which would hint to the existence of a Proto-form ṱūr, which if there were a cognate in Arabic, would be reflected as ẓūr ظور (which doesn't exist in Arabic).
> I could be wrong of course. But consider for example the cognates for "shadow" in the (Central) Semitic languages:
> Hebrew صل צל ṣel (transliteration, but pronounced in Modern Hebrew as tzel (or tsel))
> Aramaic טללא ܛܠܠܐ ṭillā
> ِArabic ظلّ ẓill-
> Ugaritic ẓll
> Suggesting a Proto-Semitic ṱil(v)l- (Also see here)
> 
> As for the IndoEuropean words, etymonline suggests a borrowing from a "pre-I.E. Mediterranean language".
> As I understand it, that means a language predating IE in the Mediterranean region (i.e. was not IndoEuropean). However, the wikipedia entry "Tower" says the same thing but links "pre-Indo-European Mediterranean language" to "Proto-Indo-European_language"!
> ¿Did I misunderstand things?



rayloom,

ṭūr has any connection with صور/ _Ṣūr_; ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon


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## rayloom

aruniyan said:


> rayloom,
> 
> ṭūr has any connection with صور/ Ṣūr; ?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon



Answering your question, yes. Ṣūr being the Pheonician name of the place. 
Also related to other place names, such as Tur Abdin (from the Aramaic name of the city, which still has its own form of Neo-Aramaic Turyoyo). 
However, the Wikipedia link you've provided sheds important insight to the discussion. It shows that the Akkadian word is actually Ṣurru, meaning that the "original" root has no /w/ in the middle. Instead a doubled consonant /r/. 
The Arabic cognate would then be ظرر ẓ-r-r, which does occur in Arabic, also meaning "rock" (which is also the meaning of Ṣūr, the Phoenician city). 
Thus the real cognate to Aramaic Tur and Hebrew Tzor would be Arabic ẓurr- or ẓirr-.


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## tFighterPilot

rayloom said:


> Answering your question, yes. Ṣūr being the Pheonician name of the place.
> Also related to other place names, such as Tur Abdin (from the Aramaic name of the city, which still has its own form of Neo-Aramaic Turyoyo).
> However, the Wikipedia link you've provided sheds important insight to the discussion. It shows that the Akkadian word is actually Ṣurru, meaning that the "original" root has no /w/ in the middle. Instead a doubled consonant /r/.
> The Arabic cognate would then be ظرر ẓ-r-r, which does occur in Arabic, also meaning "rock" (which is also the meaning of Ṣūr, the Phoenician city).
> Thus the real cognate to Aramaic Tur and Hebrew Tzor would be Arabic ẓurr- or ẓirr-.


Since when did all Semitic languages come from Akkadian? Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic are west Semitic while Akkadian is east Semitic.


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## rayloom

tFighterPilot said:


> Since when did all Semitic languages come from Akkadian? Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic are west Semitic while Akkadian is east Semitic.


I never said that!!


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## aruniyan

rayloom said:


> Answering your question, yes. Ṣūr being the Pheonician name of the place.
> Also related to other place names, such as Tur Abdin (from the Aramaic name of the city, which still has its own form of Neo-Aramaic Turyoyo).
> However, the Wikipedia link you've provided sheds important insight to the discussion. It shows that the Akkadian word is actually Ṣurru, meaning that the "original" root has no /w/ in the middle. Instead a doubled consonant /r/.
> The Arabic cognate would then be ظرر ẓ-r-r, which does occur in Arabic, also meaning "rock" (which is also the meaning of Ṣūr, the Phoenician city).
> Thus the real cognate to Aramaic Tur and Hebrew Tzor would be Arabic ẓurr- or ẓirr-.



Rayloom,

thanks for your info,
can you give me the exact meaning for these  Arabic words?
سور 
صور
طور

How connected are these?

why Iam interested  is, the Tamil word for "wall" is "_Suvar_" and  may be a loan from Arabic, but its a very common word and available in early literature.


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## tFighterPilot

rayloom said:


> I never said that!!


You said that it was the "original" root.


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## Favara

Catalan ended up with both, _torre_ ("tower", Latin _turre_) and _turó_ ("hill", apparently pre-roman _tur-/taur-_ + diminutive).


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## apmoy70

rayloom said:


> As for the IndoEuropean words, etymonline suggests a borrowing from a "pre-I.E. Mediterranean language".
> As I understand it, that means a language predating IE in the Mediterranean region (i.e. was not IndoEuropean). However, the wikipedia entry "Tower" says the same thing but links "pre-Indo-European Mediterranean language" to "Proto-Indo-European_language"!
> ¿Did I misunderstand things?


I personally don't buy it, Tour/Tourris/Tower are cognates with the Greek--> «τύρσις» ('tūrsīs, _f._)--> _bastion, walled city, fortified house_, «τύρσος» ('tūrsŏs, _m._)--> _tower on a wall_, or the Hittite "tarwana" (from which the Greek «τύραννος» ('tŭrānnŏs, _m._)--> _tyrant_ derives); all from PIE base *dʰer-(2)/*dʰeregʰ-, _to hold, hold firm_


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## rayloom

tFighterPilot said:


> You said that it was the "original" root.


I meant the original root in Proto-Semitic probably had no /w/ (or long u vowel) in the middle, since Akkadian (and Arabic) show a doubling in the root. Which is commoner than being the other way round, a doubling which occurs later. 
And it's stronger as evidence since Akkadian and Arabic are from two different sub-families, while Hebrew and Aramaic are both Northwest Semitic.


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## rayloom

aruniyan said:


> Rayloom,
> 
> thanks for your info,
> can you give me the exact meaning for these  Arabic words?
> سور
> صور
> طور
> 
> How connected are these?
> 
> why Iam interested  is, the Tamil word for "wall" is "_Suvar_" and  may be a loan from Arabic, but its a very common word and available in early literature.



Not very connected in Arabic in fact. 
طور with the meaning of mountain is (probably) borrowed from Aramaic. 
صور with the pronunciation Ṣūr can mean "horn", or refer to the Lebanese city Tyre. 
سور means "wall" (it's used for walls surrounding properties, (old) cities...etc)


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## origumi

rayloom said:


> Arabic ṭūr might actually be borrowed from Aramaic. Because if we analyse the Hebrew and Aramaic cognates, we would find that while the Aramaic word starts with a ט ط ܛ /ṭ/, the Hebrew cognate starts with a   ص צ/ṣ/. Which would hint to the existence of a Proto-form ṱūr, which if there were a cognate in Arabic, would be reflected as ẓūr ظور (which doesn't exist in Arabic).


Could there be a second Arabic form of this word, _zur_? In Persian zur زور means strength, force, and consequently in Armenian, Bulgarian, Greek, Hindi, Romanian, Serbo-Croatian, Ottoman Turkish, Urdo, Udi.

In Hebrew the meaning "strength, force" exists for _tzur_ as a derivation of "mountain" and "hard stone".

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/زور


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## djara

origumi said:


> Could there be a second Arabic form of this word, _zur_? In Persian zur زور means strength, force, and consequently in Armenian, Bulgarian, Greek, Hindi, Romanian, Serbo-Croatian, Ottoman Turkish, Urdo, Udi.
> 
> In Hebrew the meaning "strength, force" exists for _tzur_ as a derivation of "mountain" and "hard stone".
> 
> 
> 
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/زور


In Lisaan al-3arab: وقال بعضهم: الزُّورُ صَخْرَةٌ wa qaala ba3duhum az-zour sakhratun Some say that az-zour means a rock
وناقة زَوْرَةٌ: قوية غليظة. wa naaqatun zawratun: a strong and sturdy female camel.
وحبل له زَوْرٌ أَي قوّة wa 7ablun lahu zawrun: a rope with zawr i.e. strength
These meanings are archaic and none is used in modern Arabic 
The more usual meanings of z-w-r nowadays are lying, fraud, not straight..


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## ancalimon

origumi said:


> Could there be a second Arabic form of this word, _zur_? In Persian zur زور means strength, force, and consequently in Armenian, Bulgarian, Greek, Hindi, Romanian, Serbo-Croatian, Ottoman Turkish, Urdo, Udi.
> 
> In Hebrew the meaning "strength, force" exists for _tzur_ as a derivation of "mountain" and "hard stone".
> 
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/زور



There is a meaning of Turk meaning strength in Turkic.  But I think originally it could have been related to spiral~zigzaging; repeating free motion and something religious. More understandably: "Something that changes with time, that flows with time and fate" (Tur)

On the other hand, "dur" means "stop" in Turkish so it doesn't make much sense in my opinion.
Yet on the other hand, "doruk" means the uppermost,  peak (for example dağın doruğu : the peak of the mountain).  So there could be clear relationship between those words and "doruk".

I'm not sure about what the suffix "uk" means at the end of "dor". and I'm not sure most of the people are. It could mean "the thing that has been xxxed"

So if my idea about "tur" is true, than it would mean "the thing that has been "set to free motion, zigzaged, spiraled?" ~ "the thing that's most close to God"" ?

EDIT: Just looked at my etymology dictionary.It says that doruk comes from TUR (to raise, to get higher)

We also use the word DOĞRUL for example to say "stand up" to someone lying.
It might also be related with DOĞ (rising of the sun) and also (being born)

If the thing we are looking at is the vertical shape, we also have DİRİ meaning erect and also alive (opposite of dead) but an erect thing can be horizontal as well. Thus for example DİRİL: someone dead resurrecting or someone being awakened from a deep sleep.


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