# Pants, panties, underpants, petticoats and nighties.



## heidita

I told my student I would post this very funny "explanation" her teacher gave her for the two items mentioned. 

So, am I to imagine Panjandrum asking his wife: Listen, where did you hide my *panties*? 

Or Srivvy: Hey, I am wearing pink *underpants* today.

Teacher's _explanation and translation (from Spanish)_: 

underpants: women's underwear

panties: unisex

Is it ever possible to use these items this way?

(This is really true!! She also said that pettycoat was a nighty, well, that was not so bad)


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## Harry Batt

I see London,
I see France,
I see Billy's underpants

As you can see from this children's ditty underpants is okay. However, beyond the age of 12 it is underwear or undershorts for the boys.


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## O rainbowbrite O

heidita said:


> underpants: women's underwear
> 
> panties: unisex



Are you sure that you didn't get these mixed up?  I have only heard panties as women's underwear only, and underpants as unisex.

I hope this helps


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## Loob

For me:

_panties_  are definitely women's underwear (and probably frilly)
_underpants _are definitely men's underwear 
_pants_ are underwear for either men or women _(I know that in AmE pants refers to outerwear)_

Personally, I wear _knickers_ (which I believe in AmE also refers to outerwear).

Thank you for allowing me to share that with you.

Loob


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## panjandrum

I think it is clear that the teacher has a particular insight into my personal preferences for underwear that I was quite sure I had managed to conceal on this forum or else she, or the student, has got this mixed up.  
Loob's usage is consistent with mine - apart from her interesting preference for _knickers_.

(Petticoat and nightie are the normal BE spellings.)


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## Harry Batt

Well, knickers was a surprise to me. On the first voyage to England I was prepared for lift and creeper lane but not knickers. I am sure that the American male subscribers to WRC will remember the days when we wore those usually corduroy knickers--those baggy textiles that tucked in at the knees and worn with sox that drooped from the knees-- insteady of dungareees or jeans. They last time I saw a kid wearing them was in the 1950s.


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## nichec

Harry Batt said:


> Well, knickers was a surprise to me. On the first voyage to England I was prepared for lift and creeper lane but not knickers. I am sure that the American male subscribers to WRC will remember the days when we wore those usually corduroy knickers--those baggy textiles that tucked in at the knees and worn with sox that drooped from the knees-- insteady of dungareees or jeans. They last time I saw a kid wearing them was in the 1950s.


 
Hi, Harry, 

Isn't it called knickerbockers?

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=43910&dict=CALD


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## Haylette

I think that "pants" can be unisex, but, as I remember from first school, boys get quite upset if you suggest that they wear knickers.


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## heidita

O rainbowbrite O said:


> Are you sure that you didn't get these mixed up? I have only heard panties as women's underwear only, and underpants as unisex.


 
The teacher most certainly did. She used a picture word list, and "panties= unisex" (teacher's handwriting) were  little blue panties with a pink flower, the "underpant=women's underwear", was this picture. My student, who is already 12 thought that that was really strange.



Loob said:


> Personally, I wear _knickers_ (which I believe in AmE also refers to outerwear).


 
Thank you , Loob, I love the word knickers, everybody used that for women's underwear in my times in London. Is that probably regional?



panjandrum said:


> (Petticoat and nightie are the normal BE spellings.)


 
Of course, Panja, _my bad_, as one can hear on TV all the time now. 

Are the words interchangeable nowadays? I told my students that a petticoat was worn under a dress and a nightie for going to bed. The teacher only mentioned the word petticoat.


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## Loob

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread, heidita: thank you so much for starting it



heidita said:


> The teacher most certainly did. She used a picture word list, and "panties= unisex" (teacher's handwriting) were little blue panties with a pink flower, the "underpant=women's underwear", was this picture. My student, who is already 12 thought that that was really strange.


 
I think someone needs a quiet word with that teacher....



> Thank you , Loob, I love the word knickers, everybody used that for women's underwear in my times in London. Is that probably regional?


 
No, I don't think so. 'Bridget Jones' uses it, for example; and so (google tells me) do Marks and Spencer's. I just like the word: it's almost impossible to say without a twinkle in the eye - except, of course, when you've got a load of them out on the washing line and it starts to rain...

By the way, if Harry Batt was surprised at the word when he came over here, imagine how surprised I was, in Canada, to read a dress code for female service personnel saying that "knickers were allowed".



> I told my students that a petticoat was worn under a dress and a nightie for going to bed.


 
Spot on!

Loob


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## panjandrum

heidita said:


> ...
> Are the words interchangeable nowadays?    I told my students that a petticoat was worn under a dress and a nightie for going to bed. The teacher only mentioned the word petticoat.


A complicated question.
If you walk around the busy streets late of an evening, in the early hours of the morning, or just around civilised breakfast time, you will see many young ladies wandering around wearing garments that could easily be described as a petticoat or a nightie.  Yet they are apparently wearing them as outer garments.  I say that, but to be sure it is hard to tell because they also seem to be wearing them as their only garments.  

Whether these same young ladies are in search of outerwear to go on top of their petticoats, or are wearing a nightie because they are tired and on their way to bed, is beyond my knowledge.  Perhaps I should conduct a short survey tomorrow morning on the way to work?


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## sdgraham

Those that we call "knickers" in the U.S. are called plus-fours in BE, I believe.

The late American professional golfer Payne Stewart customarily wore them on the golf course, but I haven't seen them on the streets in the U.S. for over half a century.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

nichec said:


> Hi, Harry,
> 
> Isn't it called knickerbockers?


 
"Knickers" is an abbreviated form of the word "knickerbockers", just as "pants" is a shortened form of "pantaloons".


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## Loob

I went to my local Argos supermarket tonight, and what I call _knickers _they were calling _briefs._ 

To be fair I didn't check what they were calling men's underpants: didn't want to look like a peculiar old woman: you'll understand, I'm sure.

Loob


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## Musical Chairs

Though if the underwear is a pair of boxers, then you can just call them "boxers".

Panties are only for women but I tease my brother by calling his briefs "panties" because I think it's funny.

Edit: I've noticed that many places are calling thongs/v-strings "panties". To me, panties are only normal women's briefs and do not include thongs/v-strings. What do you all think?

Also, people in the US in this day and age do not wear petticoats. I don't even know what "nighties" are.


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## cuchuflete

At the National Music Camp in Interlochen, Michigan, the dress code used to require navy blue corduroy knickers for girls.  They have changed the name of the camp, but the dress code has some staying power...



> *The Uniform*
> The Camp uniform is one of Interlochen's oldest traditions. Today, as in 1928, female students wear navy blue knickers, shorts or pants, light blue shirts (white on Sundays) and socks. Male students wear navy blue pants, light blue shirts (white on Sundays) and light-blue belts. Navy blue walking shorts are acceptable non-concert attire.



This must sound very odd to BE speakers, who are advised to take it all with a grain of salt, and not get their knickers in a twist.


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## nichec

Musical Chairs said:


> Though if the underwear is a pair of boxers, then you can just call them "boxers".
> 
> Panties are only for women but I tease my brother by calling his briefs "panties" because I think it's funny.
> 
> Edit: I've noticed that many places are calling thongs/v-strings "panties". To me, panties are only normal women's briefs and do not include thongs/v-strings. What do you all think?
> 
> Also, people in the US in this day and age do not wear petticoats. I don't even know what "nighties" are.


 
But now they occupy like half of the store.

So, if I walk into Victoria's Secret, I will still call them panties, because I am very shy   


I think I read about "petticoats" in some old novels (some classics, I guess).


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## Harry Batt

Alright, that takes care of summer. At the rate we are going, Minnesota will have snow before November. If I'm not mistaken longjohns are unisex, but the style has changed. The union suit with the flap is now replaced by lowers and uppers. Without the flap.


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## Loob

Musical Chairs said:


> Also, people in the US in this day and age do not wear petticoats. I don't even know what "nighties" are.


So, no petticoats, no nighties, and no knickers since the 1950s, except in Michigan.

You're a daring lot, you North Americans!

Loob


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## heidita

I tease my husband , too, and call his underpants "knickers", *Musical*. You can see it is not a matter of age, jeje.

So, if you do not say _nightie_, what do you call the night gowns?  

I also advised my student not to use petticoat as it was a really old fashinoned item.


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## nichec

heidita said:


> I tease my husband , too, and call his underpants "knickers", *Musical*. You can see it is not a matter of age, jeje.
> 
> So, if you do not say _nightie_, what do you call the night gowns?
> 
> I also advised my student not to use petticoat as it was a really old fashinoned item.


 
I call it "lingerie".


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## heidita

nichec said:


> I call it "lingerie".


 
Nichec, I would think of something very fancy like this when I think of lingerie.

I am referring to a sometimes very old fashioned nightie which can be very _lingerie like_, but not necessarily. Look at this , not even my grandmother wore something like this.


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## Loob

heidita said:


> I also advised my student not to use petticoat as it was a really old fashinoned item.


 
I felt positively Dickensian when I read this, heidita, because I've always used the word "petticoat" in preference to "slip".  Then I found this, and felt a lot better!

To be fair, I think most people say "slip".  Marks and Spencer's certainly do


Loob


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## cuchuflete

Loob's link has a neat pun:

 "Hot on the high heels of the womanly dressing revival, comes a surprising return to the underwear _drawer_: the petticoat."




Is this also used in BE?  Definition



Are knickers worn after dark called late _bloomers_?


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## Loob

cuchuflete said:


> Loob's link has a neat pun:
> 
> "Hot on the high heels of the womanly dressing revival, comes a surprising return to the underwear _drawer_: the petticoat."
> 
> Is this also used in BE? Definition


Only in jokes, cuchu: "Summer is going - winter draws on".

(Schoolboys called Nicholas tend to attract jokes, too.) 



> Are knickers worn after dark called late _bloomers_?


 
Good one!!

Loob (still grinning!)


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## Loob

heidita said:


> So, if you do not say _nightie_, what do you call the night gowns?


Going back to your question about "nightie", heidita, you might be interested in the following google statistics:

(1) hits for "nightgown"_:_ _all of google_ 1,190,000;  _UK-only_  37,000

(2) hits for "nightdress"_:_ _all of google_ 254,000;  _UK-only_ 70,300

(3) hits for "nightie"_:_ _all of google_ 570,000;  _UK-only_ 66,100.

I know it's an over-simplification; but given North American domination of the web, I tend to take 'all of google' hits as at least indicative of AmE preferences.

Against that background, (1) and (2) don't surprise me: I would have expected "nightgown" to be relatively more common in AmE, "nightdress" relatively more common in BrE. (Maybe some AmE speakers can confirm?)

But the statistic that did surprise me was (3), given that at least one AmE speaker here has said they don't recognise "nightie".

I wonder if "nightie" - which to me is just an informal variant of "nightdress" - has some other (sinister?) meaning?  Or maybe it is used in North America, but in some parts more than others? 


Loob


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## cuchuflete

Nightgown and its diminutive, nightie, are commonly understood and used among those I know, so the person who didn't recognize it might be much younger.  Nightdress sounds distinctly BE to me.  I'd recognize it in a book by a British author or by an American writing before 1890, but I know no American who uses the term.


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## Loob

Our ever-wise cuchu has solved the 'nightie' problem, heidita.

"Nightie" in AmE is an informal version of "nightgown".

"Nightie" in BrE is an informal version of "nightdress".

I still think someone should have a word with your student's teacher, who seems seriously confused about a range of underwear issues....

Loob


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## sdgraham

cuchuflete said:


> Nightgown and its diminutive, nightie, are commonly understood and used among those I know, so the person who didn't recognize it might be much younger. Nightdress sounds distinctly BE to me. I'd recognize it in a book by a British author or by an American writing before 1890, but I know no American who uses the term.


 
Quite so. My mother commonly used the terms "nightgown" and "nightie." (I don't know what the younger crowd is calling such items these days.)


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## panjandrum

sdgraham said:


> Quite so. My mother commonly used the terms "nightgoiwn" and "nightie." (I don't know what the younger crowd is calling such items these days.)


Taking into account the very recent conversation appropriate attire for leaving the house it is likely that the younger crowd does not wear nightdresses, nightgowns, or nighties.  If anything, they wear garments that would be comfortable to wear on the school run or a trip to the shops


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## cuchuflete

sdgraham said:


> Quite so. My mother commonly used the terms "nightgoiwn" and "nightie." (I don't know what the younger crowd is calling such items these days.)


 Recreational gear?


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## Davearillo

Perhaps just to throw in my two bobs worth from Down Under via México (where strangely enough this topic was bouncing around the table in Zacatecas last ngiht)...

Sign on a hotel door in Oz that confused one Englishman:
No Shirt
No Thongs
No Entry.
(how do they know you're wearing a thong? he wanted to know - flip-flops are what we have in mind)

Do you have any flared pants ?
Question I posed to a British salesperson who seemed a little taken aback. I was thinking outer, she was clearing thinking inner-wear...

Reg Grundies, also known as Reginalds.
an Aus'n reference to undies derived from the name of a famous Aus'n television producer.


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## bibliolept

How about "unmentionables?"


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## The Scrivener

bibliolept said:


> How about "unmentionables?"


 
No, Bibliolept, we are very open over here when discussing such garments

I'm in favour of "knickers" and I like Marks & Spencers' white cotton ones which reach from crotch to waist - I am definitely anti-thong. Who wants the discomfort of a piece of synthetic lace stuck up their b*m all day long?

I keep a nightie beside my bed in case of fire, while sleeping dressed only in cocoa butter and a spray of Chanel No. 5. My man loves it! 

As for petticoats, surely these went out of fashion with the demise of serving wenches in Victorian households.  The slip is their modern equivalent but these are worn much less frequently nowadays.


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## Loob

The Scrivener said:


> As for petticoats, surely these went out of fashion with the demise of serving wenches in Victorian households.


 
Scrivvy, you didn't read my link, wicked girl!
Petticoats are ironic and post-modernist!

Loob


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## bibliolept

Well, The Scrivener, it would appear that my prudish tendencies are not wanted here.

Consider me blushing... 
Or rather, color me reddening.

I notice no one has mentioned the very popular slang variant "undies."


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## Loob

bibliolept said:


> I notice no one has mentioned the very popular slang variant "undies."


 the blushing bibiolept.

_undies:_ short for underwear, in the same way that

_nightie:_ is short for nightdress/nightgown.

Loob


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## The Scrivener

Loob said:


> Scrivvy, you didn't read my link, wicked girl!
> Petticoats are ironic and post-modernist!
> 
> Loob


 
Dear Loob,

I have now read your link, but not being a dedicated follower of fashion I shall refrain from buying such a garment.  Did you notice the prices? 

Scrivvy


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## xenon

Davearillo said:


> Sign on a hotel door in Oz that confused one Englishman:
> No Shirt
> No Thongs
> No Entry.
> (how do they know you're wearing a thong? he wanted to know - flip-flops are what we have in mind)


Good one . I didn't know you called flip flops "thongs" in Oz.



Davearillo said:


> Do you have any flared pants ?
> Question I posed to a British salesperson who seemed a little taken aback. I was thinking outer, she was clearing thinking inner-wear...


This surprises me because "flared pants" to me would only mean flared trousers. Where I live it's not strange at all to refer to trousers as pants. In fact, I would personally only refer to underwear as pants in a jokey kind of a way. But it seems it's different down London way and in other parts of the country.

As for female underwear, the standard BE word is surely "knickers". I bet if you look up the equivalent of that word in any foreign language to English dictionary, it will give "knickers" as the standard British version. It is a bit of a silly sounding word, though. The American version, "panties" has always sounded slighty sexual to me, but maybe I'm just a perv.


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## bibliolept

In AE, "panties" is used exclusively for female undergarments. Thus, it's not a surprise that the word might have some frisson of the forbidden to the male ear.


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## xenon

bibliolept said:


> In AE, "panties" is used exclusively for female undergarments. Thus, it's not a surprise that the word might have some frisson of the forbidden to the male ear.


It's the same for "knickers" in the UK, but whenever I hear the word "panties" I only imagine it as the underwear of young women. Do old ladies in the US refer to their undergarments as "panties"? (that would sound really funny to me). "Knickers" works for all ages here.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

xenon said:


> It's the same for "knickers" in the UK, but whenever I hear the word "panties" I only imagine it as the underwear of young women. Do old ladies in the US refer to their undergarments as "panties"? (that would sound really funny to me). "Knickers" works for all ages here.


 
It is not just old ladies who would refer to underpants made for a woman as "panties"; the term is commonly used even by young women.

As noted before, in the US the terms "knickers" and "Knickerbockers" are interchangeable, and refer to exterior, and usually old-fashioned, juvenile, masculine, garments. The New York City professional basketball team are called the "Knicks" as an abbreviation for "Knickerbockers", as the origin of the word referred to the 17th C. Dutch settlers of New York, who wore the knee-length pantaloons in question. The term "Knickerbocker" in New York can still refer to socially prominent families of Dutch origin -- the Roosevelts, for example.

I have a photograph of my grandfather made in 1907 when he was a small boy, and he is wearing the clothing of the day. If I said to an American "I have a photo of my grandfather wearing knickers and suspenders", I think they would know immediately what I meant, and only one image would come to mind -- something like this:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~txfalls/picUnknown4_ThreeboysgraduatedYears_WearingKnickers_04182004.jpg

or this:
http://www.babble.com/content/articles/reviews/fashionandproducts/fashion/images/knickers.jpg

However, I think a British speaker might get a VERY different mental image from that quite innocent description


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## xenon

That is very interesting, thanks! (I liked the photos, too ).

Maybe I only associate "panties" with younger women's underwear because of hearing that word used in a certain way in American films and television programs. I think if I ever heard a British OAP talking about her panties, I would probably wet mine from laughter.


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## sdgraham

xenon said:


> Do old ladies in the US refer to their undergarments as "panties"?


 
I'm not sure how to define "old ladies." I don't dare pose the question to my wife in that context. We are both retired, but neither would I have the courage to refer to her as an Old Age Pensioner (OAP in BE).


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## loladamore

bibliolept said:


> I notice no one has mentioned the very popular slang variant "undies."


Very popular indeed, but a much more common term for men's underwear than women's, I would have thought.


Davearillo said:


> Reg Grundies, also known as Reginalds.


I remember boys referring to their 'undies' as 'grundies' at my school in the UK a while back. I never realised it was imported rhyming slang. Maybe we got it from Neighbours?


GreenWhiteBlue said:


> If I said to an American "I have a photo of my grandfather wearing knickers and suspenders", I think they would know immediately what I meant, and only one image would come to mind -- something like this:
> [...]
> However, I think a British speaker might get a VERY different mental image from that quite innocent description


Indeed. I would wonder if your grandfather's surname was Hoover.

Does anyone know what the relationship between knickers and *pant*omime is, as in 'Knickers to you, too!'?


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## Blumengarten

Wow, interesting thread.

My two cents:

"Nightgown" usually refers to a floor-length gown, perhaps with gathers at the neck and cuffs, and lace, maybe bows ... represented by Lanz of Salzburg which was _de rigueur_ for slumber parties.

"Nightie" has a more sexual connotation, more like a teddy (at least to me). 

My 78-year-old mother refers to her underwear as "panties" so there's definitely no age-distinction there.  Perhaps people think of them as young ladies' attire because of the "panty raids" conducted by drunken frat boys.

Oh I do wish you hadn't introduced me to the reference to "reginalds" -- that was my father's name.  Now I'll never get that image out of my mind!


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## song.unsung

Hello all!

The majority of responses in regards to English usage seem to be from my neighbors "across the pond", so here are my attempts to clarify AmE usages.

_Panties/underwear_

To start off with, underwear is probably the most generic term, used interchangeably for either gender. As previously mentioned, panties is a term that I would associate only with women's underwear  - most likely lacy, frilly, or girly in some way. Undies is a diminutive form of underwear, similar to panties. As for men's underwear, it can be simply described as underwear or broken into the three most common categories: boxers, briefs (sometimes jokingly referred to as "tighty whiteys"), and boxer briefs (not surprisingly, a combination of the two previous styles)

Pants I would only use as a generic term to refer to long pants, NEVER underwear.

_Nighties_

Again, this might have more to do with age than location, but what I refer to as what I wear to go to sleep at night is pajamas (which can sometimes be abbreviated to p.j.s, but I don't personally). Granted, what I wear to bed is something like a t-shirt and shorts - clothes not specifically designed to be worn to bed. In this sense, I most hear 'pajamas' used as a generic term for sleepwear. Pajamas specifically is a set of matching pants/shirt to be worn to bed. A nightie is specifically female, and is a dress-like garment worn to bed (less formal or old-fashioned than a nightgown). A nightgown, as the name implies, is a full-length nightie. It can be made of nicer material, or can also refer to a more old-fashioned style with long sleeves and frills.

_Petticoat vs. Slip_

Slips are merely a type of undergarment worn over underwear but under clothes to help create a smooth line or prevent the garment from being see through. (Slips are less worn now because garments are more likely to have linings sewn into them)

To me, a petticoat is a type of antique slip (used 19th century and earlier) that was used to boost boost or prop up the full skirts fashionable in the time period. You still might see petticoats used with wedding dresses in this same capacity.


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## cycloneviv

I'm surprised by a couple of post which suggested that "underpants" and "undies" are pretty much masculine attire. I wear them and am definitely female! Perhaps it's an Australian thing... I also call them knickers or pants, depending on my mood, but never "panties", which would make me cringe! Even in my younger days (and 36 is no _that_ old, I think!) I would never have called them "panties".

Actually, maybe once upon a time, but surely not since the age of four or so.


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## bibliolept

As far as I'm concerned, "undies" can be worn my males or females. (AE)


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## cycloneviv

What a relief! I can proudly where my undies without being disloyal to my gender.


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## Joobs

song.unsung said:


> As for men's underwear, it can be simply described as underwear or broken into the three most common categories: boxers, briefs (sometimes jokingly referred to as "tighty whiteys"), and boxer briefs (not surprisingly, a combination of the two previous styles)



What about the good old "Y fronts". 

Anyway, just "go commando" and you don't have to worry about the various names for undergarments.


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## bibliolept

Joobs said:


> What about the good old "Y fronts".
> 
> Anyway, just "go commando" and you don't have to worry about the various names for undergarments.



These are discussed here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=593640

Going with an "unfurnished basement" is probably outside the scope of this thread.


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## timpeac

bibliolept said:


> Going with an "unfurnished basement" is probably outside the scope of this thread.


If someone's unfurnished basement is outside their threads I think we should all look away!


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## heidita

Joobs said:


> What about the good old "Y fronts".
> 
> Anyway, just "go commando" and you don't have to worry about the various names for undergarments.






timpeac said:


> If someone's unfurnished basement is outside their threads I think we should all look away!




Oh, I got quite lost here. 

I will tell the student that this thread has been the laughing stock of the day for many and we have even discovered the underwear habits of dear Panjandrum, Loop, Scrivvy.....

Can somebody explain what an "y-front" is? And "go commando"??

Timpeac, I didn't understand your post at all.


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## Loob

Heidita, the link in your post 9 showed "y-fronts": they're a type of men's underpants where the front has an inverted Y.

As for "go commando", here's an article from Wiki.

I'll let timpeac explain his post!

Loob


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## cuchuflete

The topic has been well covered, but don't forget to include _u-trou.  _
That's AE slang for under-trousers, or underwear.  It can be applied to both
men's and women's undies.


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## Musical Chairs

Well, people my age don't usually wear nightgowns, most of us wear pajamas that come with a top (usually a tank top or camisole) and bottom (pants with elastic or a drawstring), a big shirt, any clothes that are loose-fitting, or nothing. But I suppose if we saw one of those, we'd call it a nightgown.


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## cuchuflete

Just adding to the canon of interior support items...

*butt bra* _n_.  An undergarment that supports the buttocks. Also: *buttbra*.



> In appearance, the Biniki is similar to the kind of complicated Victorian undergarments you read about in your Brontes class in college. Consisting of two leg loops and a waistband, this foundation garment encircles the buttocks and "lifts and smoothes" the back of the upper thigh (which, when you hit 30, may or may not look like a burlap bag full of doorknobs). This device is often referred to, subtly, as a "*butt bra*."
> —Emma Downs,, "A thing of booty," _Fort Wayne Journal-Gazette_, March 2, 2006


 Found at the wonderful Word Spy web site:  http://www.wordspy.com/words/buttbra.asp


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## emma42

Cuchuflete, how do you pronounce "u-trou"?  Is it "true" or trow (as in trowel)?

Further, I am surprised that a man of your standing would wish to engage with such ideas as "butt bras", which I believe you have made up, despite the link.


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## cuchuflete

emma42 said:


> Cuchuflete, how do you pronounce "u-trou"?  Is it "true" or trow (as in trowel)?
> 
> Further, I am surprised that a man of your standing would wish to engage with such ideas as "butt bras", which I believe you have made up, despite the link.



1- Trou as in trousers.  Hence _you-trow, rhymes with luau. For a recording of the latter, go here.

2- _I wouldn't sag to such depths, but thanks for the (_?) compliment. _


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## Porteño

nichec said:


> Hi, Harry,
> 
> Isn't it called knickerbockers?
> 
> http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=43910&dict=CALD


 
I thought they were 'plus-fours'!


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## emma42

Thanks, Cuchuflete.  It's just that sometimes we shorten "trousers" to "trews" (pronounced "trooze") so I wasn't sure.

Compliment?  I wouldn't patronise a man of your status with such superficialities.


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## emma42

Porteño said:


> I thought they were 'plus-fours'!



They are, but the Americans call them by other names.  I think children's "plus-fours" used to be referred to as "knickerbockers" in BE.


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## cuchuflete

If Online Etymology Dictionary is to be believed, the BE world owes a debt of gratitude to AE writer Washington Irving, and his English caricaturist illustrator.

*
knickerbocker*    "descendant of Du. settler of New York," 1831, from Diedrich Knickerbocker, the name under which Washington Irving published his popular "History of New York" (1809). The pen-name was borrowed from Irving's friend Herman Knickerbocker, and lit. means "toy marble-baker." 
*
knickers* "short, loose-fitting undergarment," now usually for women, 1881, shortening of knickerbockers (1859), said to be so called for their resemblance to those of Dutchmen in Cruikshank's illustrations from Washington Irving's "History of New York" .


And for those who care about style, whether things are below-the-knee, and such...

"Plus fours (1921) were four inches longer in the leg than standard knickerbockers, to produce an overhang, originally a style assoc. with golfers."


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## emma42

Thanks for clarifying that, cuchuflete.  Now I think about it, plus-fours are, of course, longer than knickerbockers.  I should have thought it through more carefully.  And not got my plus-fours in a twist.


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## Haylette

At my first school, I wore a petticoat under my pinafore all the time! Maybe a petticoat nowadays is just a slip for children.


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## emma42

Yes, I did too, Haylette.  But that was in the 60s.  Petticoat is little used now, I fear.  It's all "slips" and "half slips".


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## Haylette

emma42 said:


> Yes, I did too, Haylette. But that was in the 60s. .


 
It was early 90's when I did it! Surely it can't changed that much since then?


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## emma42

You wouldn't have thought so, would you?  So perhaps "petticoat" is still used often for a child's "slip".


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## Haylette

Could be.  In that case, the reason the word is rarely used could just be that children don't really wear the type of clothing that would require a slip.


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