# Why is المصدر called "مصدر"?



## Tulip87

If maSdar means 'verbal noun', and a verbal noun is a noun which is derived from a verb such as taxliim (teaching) being derived from xilm, then how is maSdar also the source that other nouns are drived from?!


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## rayloom

I'm afraid I don't get what you're getting at.
taxliim is the maSdar of xallama, xilm is the maSdar of xalima (basic form, form I, G-stem).
All are ultimately derived from the same root x-l-m.


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## Josh_

Essentially, he is asking why a maSdar is called a maSdar.

Traditionally speaking, المصدر المجرّد is ultimately the basest form of the root from which all other words, including الفعل المجرّد, are derived.

It is defined by the Arab grammarian Antoine El-Dahdah as:

المصدر المجرّد هو أصل الأسماء المشتقة، وهي تقاربه في المعنى وتشاركه في الحروف الأصلية.ـ
 (The "stripped" masDar is the source/origin for the derived nouns, which have meanings related to the masDar and share the source (i.e. root) letters.  

The derived nouns are:
اسم الفاعل, the noun of the active participle: a noun that expresses the action of the verb
اسم المفعول, the noun of the passive participle: a noun that refers to the element that undergoes the action of the verb 
 الصفة المشبّهة (بأسماء الفاعل وأسماء المفعول)ـ, the quality/adjective (similar to اسم المفعول and اسم المفعول; which expresses a permanent quality in the one possessing it.
أفعل التفضيل, the noun of preference, i.e. the comparative and superlative 
أمثلة المبالغة, instances of intensiveness (of nouns); nouns with intensive meanings
اسم المكان, noun of place
اسم الزمان, noun of time
اسم الآلة, noun of instrument


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## إسكندراني

Root letters aren't the maSdar then; the maSdar is the verbal noun. This seems to beg the question: what is the Arabic name for the 'root letters'?


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## Ibn Nacer

Bonsoir,

Est-ce le masdar qui est dérivé du verbe ou le verbe qui est dérivé du masdar ? Il me semble qu'il y a divergence sur la question, qu'en pensez-vous ?




Josh_ said:


> Essentially, he is asking why a maSdar is called a maSdar.
> 
> Traditionally speaking, المصدر المجرّد is ultimately the basest form of  the root from which all other words, including الفعل المجرّد, are  derived.
> 
> It is defined by the Arab grammarian Antoine El-Dahdah as:
> 
> المصدر المجرّد هو أصل الأسماء المشتقة، وهي تقاربه في المعنى وتشاركه في الحروف الأصلية.ـ
> (The "stripped" masDar is the source/origin for the derived nouns,  which have meanings related to the masDar and share the source (i.e.  root) letters.
> 
> The derived nouns are:
> اسم الفاعل, the noun of the active participle: a noun that expresses the action of the verb
> اسم المفعول, the noun of the passive participle: a noun that refers to the element that undergoes the action of the verb
> الصفة المشبّهة (بأسماء الفاعل وأسماء المفعول)ـ, the quality/adjective  (similar to اسم المفعول and اسم المفعول; which expresses a permanent  quality in the one possessing it.
> أفعل التفضيل, the noun of preference, i.e. the comparative and superlative
> أمثلة المبالغة, instances of intensiveness (of nouns); nouns with intensive meanings
> اسم المكان, noun of place
> اسم الزمان, noun of time
> اسم الآلة, noun of instrument



Thank you, your response is interesting. It seems to me that some grammarians say that the nouns you cited are derived from the verb.

 Is this the verb that derives from masdar or masdar that derives from the verb?

Thank you.


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## إسكندراني

I think I've since answered my own question: 
root=جذر 
verbal noun=مصدر
جذر: ع ل م
مصدر 1: عِلْمٌ
فِعْل 1: عَلِمَ عَلِمَتْ يَعْلَمُ إلخ.
مصدر 2: تَعْلِيْمٌ
فِعْل 2: عَلَّمَ عَلَّمَت يُعَلِّمُ إلخ


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## Tulip87

إسكندراني said:


> I think I've since answered my own question:
> root=جذر
> verbal noun=مصدر
> جذر: ع ل م
> مصدر 1: عِلْمٌ
> فِعْل 1: عَلِمَ عَلِمَتْ يَعْلَمُ إلخ.
> مصدر 2: تَعْلِيْمٌ
> فِعْل 2: عَلَّمَ عَلَّمَت يُعَلِّمُ إلخ


 

جذر can be pronounced both j*a*zr and j*i*zr?  And i'm curious to know what your name means? I have heard someone's last name being called eskandari (alexandrian) but I've never heard eskandaraanii!


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## إسكندراني

Tulip87 said:


> جذر can be pronounced both j*a*zr and j*i*zr?  And i'm curious to know what your name means? I have heard someone's last name being called eskandari (alexandrian) but I've never heard eskandaraanii!


It's j*i*zr.
سكندري (sakandari) is the proper way of saying the more locally used إسكندراني (eskandaraani) - both meaning Alexandrian


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## Mahaodeh

إسكندراني said:


> It's j*i*zr.



I disagree; according to the lisaan both are used but it seems to me, based on his explanation, that the correct way is jaTHr, with a fat7a.

I've actually never heard it before with a kasra.


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## Tulip87

إسكندراني said:


> I think I've since answered my own question:
> root=جذر
> verbal noun=مصدر
> جذر: ع ل م
> مصدر 1: عِلْمٌ
> فِعْل 1: عَلِمَ عَلِمَتْ يَعْلَمُ إلخ.
> مصدر 2: تَعْلِيْمٌ
> فِعْل 2: عَلَّمَ عَلَّمَت يُعَلِّمُ إلخ


 


So you're saying there are two types of masdars?


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## إسكندراني

Tulip87 said:


> So you're saying there are two types of masdars?


I'm saying there are several maSdars for each J_a_zr.
http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=جذر
Both jazr and jizr seem to be mentioned on that page... in Egypt we only use 'jizr'


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## kifaru

إسكندراني said:


> I'm saying there are several maSdars for each J_a_zr.
> http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=جذر
> Both jazr and jizr seem to be mentioned on that page... in Egypt we only use 'jizr'


 
So, is it pronounced with a "th" sound or a "z" sound.


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## إسكندراني

kifaru said:


> So, is it pronounced with a "th" sound or a "z" sound.


th as in the


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## Tulip87

إسكندراني said:


> I'm saying there are several maSdars for each J_a_zr.
> http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=جذر
> Both jazr and jizr seem to be mentioned on that page... in Egypt we only use 'jizr'


 
Can you clearify something for me please, why is masdar then called a 'verbal noun'? I mean is not a verbal noun a noun which is taken from a verb? But masdar clearly is not taken from any verbs but from a jazr!


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## إسكندراني

Tulip87 said:


> Can you clearify something for me please, why is masdar then called a 'verbal noun'? I mean is not a verbal noun a noun which is taken from a verb? But masdar clearly is not taken from any verbs but from a jazr!


'Verbal Noun' as a term is the English name for the idea; it has no specific link to Arabic. I suppose it's because it describes an action but is still a noun; eating is good; walking is good; sleeping is good - the ing words there are nouns.
أكلٌ مَشْيٌ نَوْمٌ
In Arabic maSdar means 'source'


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## Josh_

إسكندراني said:


> Root letters aren't the maSdar then; the maSdar is the verbal noun. This seems to beg the question: what is the Arabic name for the 'root letters'?





إسكندراني said:


> I think I've since answered my own question:
> root=جذر
> verbal noun=مصدر
> جذر: ع ل م
> مصدر 1: عِلْمٌ
> فِعْل 1: عَلِمَ عَلِمَتْ يَعْلَمُ إلخ.
> مصدر 2: تَعْلِيْمٌ
> فِعْل 2: عَلَّمَ عَلَّمَت يُعَلِّمُ إلخ


Right, the root (which is composed of three or four letters) is called الجذر, however if you wanted to say "root letters," perhaps you could say حروف الجذر.  However, I believe it is more common to call them حروف أصلية, as in the Arabic definition I quoted in my post above.  this is opposed to حروف زائدة which are added to root letters in order to create different words.  For example, in the word مكتب, the three letters ك-ت-ب are the حروف أصلية, whereas the م is a حرف زائد, prefixed to the root letters in order to form the اسم مكان of the root.



Ibn Nacer said:


> Bonsoir,
> 
> Est-ce le masdar qui est dérivé du verbe ou le verbe qui est dérivé du masdar ? Il me semble qu'il y a divergence sur la question, qu'en pensez-vous ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, your response is interesting. It seems to me that some grammarians say that the nouns you cited are derived from the verb.
> 
> Is this the verb that derives from masdar or masdar that derives from the verb?
> 
> Thank you.


You are welcome.  This has always puzzled me as well, since I had learned (or just been under the assumption from somewhere) that the form I verb (third person masculine past) was the form of the verb whence all other forms were derived.  However, as I have noted before in this forum Arabic grammatical terminology was named according to the function that was being carried out. For example a verb is a فعل because it denotes an action, an adjective is a صفة because it describes a noun, etc.  So a مصدر must be termed such because it is a source for something else.  Reading Arabic treatments of grammar I found that it is the source from which other derivatives of a root come.

And actually, this makes sense, as the third person masculine past tense form of the verb does not always contain the root letters, in the case of roots with weak radicals.  For example, the verb قال (he said) does not contain all the root letters because the ا is standing in for the و.  However, the مصدر, which is قول, does contain the root letters.

I think I remember hearing a rule of thumb once that went something to the effect of if you are having trouble figuring out the root of a verb (form I) look at the مصدر. 

At any rate, I think this will help in understanding Arabic derivation -- in the grammar book of the grammarian I mentioned above, Antoine El-Dahdah, he has a chart of "سير المشتقات" (progression of derivatives).  I have scanned it and posted it here for your perusal:

Link to derivation chart.

As you can see المصدر المجرد is at the very top, which then goes down to الفعل المجرد.  From there are arms branching out to the other derived verbal forms and nouns.


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## Tulip87

Josh_ said:


> Right, the root (which is composed of three or four letters) is called الجذر, however if you wanted to say "root letters," perhaps you could say حروف الجذر. However, I believe it is more common to call them حروف أصلية, as in the Arabic definition I quoted in my post above. this is opposed to حروف زائدة which are added to root letters in order to create different words. For example, in the word مكتب, the three letters ك-ت-ب are the حروف أصلية, whereas the م is a حرف زائد, prefixed to the root letters in order to form the اسم مكان of the root.
> 
> You are welcome. This has always puzzled me as well, since I had learned (or just been under the assumption from somewhere) that the form I verb (third person masculine past) was the form of the verb whence all other forms were derived. However, as I have noted before in this forum Arabic grammatical terminology was named according to the function that was being carried out. For example a verb is a فعل because it denotes an action, an adjective is a صفة because it describes a noun, etc. So a مصدر must be termed such because it is a source for something else. Reading Arabic treatments of grammar I found that it is the source from which other derivatives of a root come.
> 
> And actually, this makes sense, as the third person masculine past tense form of the verb does not always contain the root letters, in the case of roots with weak radicals. For example, the verb قال (he said) does not contain all the root letters because the ا is standing in for the و. However, the مصدر, which is قول, does contain the root letters.
> 
> I think I remember hearing a rule of thumb once that went something to the effect of if you are having trouble figuring out the root of a verb (form I) look at the مصدر.
> 
> At any rate, I think this will help in understanding Arabic derivation -- in the grammar book of the grammarian I mentioned above, Antoine El-Dahdah, he has a chart of "سير المشتقات" (progression of derivatives). I have scanned it and posted it here for your perusal:
> 
> Link to derivation chart.
> 
> As you can see المصدر المجرد is at the very top, which then goes down to الفعل المجرد. From there are arms branching out to the other derived verbal forms and nouns.


 

So I guess root words can be called both masdar and jizr?


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## Josh_

No, the جذر is not a word. جذر means 'root' and merely refers to the three (or four) letters that that make up a root.

مصدر, for all intents and purposes, refers to what you have been calling the 'verbal noun'. It is a noun that has the meaning of its verb, without reference to time.

In the above I have been trying to explain the reasoning behind the name, however, that is not really relevant to an understanding of the grammatical function. In fact, it may be confusing. Unless one is really interested in delving into the reasoning behind Arabic grammatical terminology, I'd say, just stick to knowing what grammatical function it refers to.


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## Ibn Nacer

Josh_ said:


> Right, the root (which is composed of three or four letters) is called الجذر, however if you wanted to say "root letters," perhaps you could say حروف الجذر.  However, I believe it is more common to call them حروف أصلية, as in the Arabic definition I quoted in my post above.  this is opposed to حروف زائدة which are added to root letters in order to create different words.  For example, in the word مكتب, the three letters ك-ت-ب are the حروف أصلية, whereas the م is a حرف زائد, prefixed to the root letters in order to form the اسم مكان of the root.
> 
> You are welcome.  This has always puzzled me as well, since I had learned (or just been under the assumption from somewhere) that the form I verb (third person masculine past) was the form of the verb whence all other forms were derived.  However, as I have noted before in this forum Arabic grammatical terminology was named according to the function that was being carried out. For example a verb is a فعل because it denotes an action, an adjective is a صفة because it describes a noun, etc.  So a مصدر must be termed such because it is a source for something else.  Reading Arabic treatments of grammar I found that it is the source from which other derivatives of a root come.
> 
> And actually, this makes sense, as the third person masculine past tense form of the verb does not always contain the root letters, in the case of roots with weak radicals.  For example, the verb قال (he said) does not contain all the root letters because the ا is standing in for the و.  However, the مصدر, which is قول, does contain the root letters.
> 
> I think I remember hearing a rule of thumb once that went something to the effect of if you are having trouble figuring out the root of a verb (form I) look at the مصدر.
> 
> At any rate, I think this will help in understanding Arabic derivation -- in the grammar book of the grammarian I mentioned above, Antoine El-Dahdah, he has a chart of "سير المشتقات" (progression of derivatives).  I have scanned it and posted it here for your perusal:
> 
> Link to derivation chart.
> 
> As you can see المصدر المجرد is at the very top, which then goes down to الفعل المجرد.  From there are arms branching out to the other derived verbal forms and nouns.



Thank you very much for your helpful answer.


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## Abu Rashid

Tulip87 said:
			
		

> So I guess root words can be called both masdar and jizr?



I think the best way to look at the jadhr is as the 3 (or more) components that a word can be based upon. Those 3 components can then be organised into different patterns (awzaan) to produce the varying types of words. al-maSdar is one of those patterns that the components can be arranged into, and it's considered one of the base patterns that other patterns are based on.

Another pattern that words are based off is the fa3l maaDi (the past tense verb), and I think a lot of people confuse jadhr with fa3l maaDi, but they are not quite the same. The jadhr is more the abstract concept of the 3 (or more) letters, without having any pattern (wazn) applied to them.

Hope that helps to clarify. I know that when we think of 'source' we like to think of tracing everything back to the source, but it's not necessarily the source of all forms of the word in that sense. And also 'source' and 'root' would seem to cover the same territory, but they do not in this case.


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## Tulip87

Abu Rashid said:


> I think the best way to look at the jadhr is as the 3 (or more) components that a word can be based upon. Those 3 components can then be organised into different patterns (awzaan) to produce the varying types of words. al-maSdar is one of those patterns that the components can be arranged into, and it's considered one of the base patterns that other patterns are based on.
> 
> Another pattern that words are based off is the fa3l maaDi (the past tense verb), and I think a lot of people confuse jadhr with fa3l maaDi, but they are not quite the same. The jadhr is more the abstract concept of the 3 (or more) letters, without having any pattern (wazn) applied to them.
> 
> Hope that helps to clarify. I know that when we think of 'source' we like to think of tracing everything back to the source, but it's not necessarily the source of all forms of the word in that sense. And also 'source' and 'root' would seem to cover the same territory, but they do not in this case.


 
Great answer, thanks


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## Josh_

Ibn Nacer said:


> Thank you very much for your helpful answer.


You're welcome.


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