# reish and accent variations, ve/u general advice



## theunderachiever

Hello.  First post in this forum, but I've been coming here for some time on a couple different languages.  The posters seem a bit more polite and knowledgeable than other sites I've been to, so I figured I'd get my start here.  

I've been learning a few languages off and on for some time now.  Hebrew isn't my weakest, but it certainly isn't my strongest.  I love the language and am, in fact, quite interested in making aliyah.  Consequently, I feel two things are required of me in order for this to be a possibility:  I need to develop my Hebrew more, and I need to work on my accent.

The process I've been using for Hebrew acquisition has been quite organic and informal.  As a result, my knowledge of the finer points of the tongue are nil, as that knowledge has been almost entirely dependent upon media rather than resources intended for learning.  This will be reflected in some of the questions I've got.  (Note to moderators:  I didn't want to make 4 or 5 separate threads to cover these questions, so a thousand apologies if I didn't pick the lesser of two evils)

My first question concerns my accent.  I don't get the opportunity to speak with Israelis...and I probably wouldn't because my command of the language is so poor at this point.  Nevertheless, when working on a new language, accent is EXTRAORDINARILY important to me.  I'm aware that Israel has many different people of many different backgrounds who speak with as many accents as there are citizens, but it still remains an important aspect of language to me.  What I've noticed is that while adults often do have trouble with language acquisition and in adopting new accents, the more determinative factor lies within the sense of identity.  Those who wish to assimilate seem to have an easier time learning the rules of grammar, acquiring vocabulary, and modifying their accent.  Those who identify strongly with their motherland seem to struggle with the language more.  I don't think it's impossible to acquire a new accent if one tries hard enough.  Even if this proves to be impossible for me, I think I can come close...sooooo:

picosong com/47UN/ - This is just a couple of sentences, and I'm CERTAIN in those 2 or 3 sentences I blew your mind with the amount of mistakes I made, but I'm curious about how bad my accent is.  I've rarely had feedback on it and I've only relatively recently begun to learn the language.  I need to know where my focus should be directed, if you would be so kind.

That brings me to reish.

The reish I hear the most sounds like a cross between a voiced uvular fricative and a uvular trill.  More correctly, it's a voiced uvular fricative with a trill used as an emphatic device.  Still, there's an aspect of that R that doesn't really fit into an IPA pigeonhole.  It's quite a difficult thing to replicate, really.  I only began to truly pronounce the uvular trill the other day, which is why I ended up here.  Am I more or less correct in my assessment of the "standard" pronunciation of Modern Hebrew?  The only exception I've been able to spot is that certain facets of the media (news/radio) seem to favor this quite pronounced trill.  It seems overtly Ashkenazi in nature, and I often hear them revert back to a voiced uvular fricative.  Either way, I'm going to continue to try and develop this trill, despite the fact it isn't really all that clear.  I don't like to blame anatomy for my linguistic shortcomings, but I really do think I might be facing an anatomical impediment here.  I'll still try though.

While acquiring a standard accent is all well and good, I still find other accents quite interesting.  As speakers of Hebrew, what accents do you find most appealing?  On a few occasions, I've heard non-Arabs pronounce Hebrew with fully semitic pronunciations.  It was straaaaaange, but very interesting to me.  I may not settle on a standard accent and could still make the switch to another, which is why I ask.  I do like the standard, though.  It sounds very pretty.

My last question concerns vav when acting as "and".  As far as I can tell, it turns into "u" with the letters bet, vav, mem and peh.  It doesn't seem to do this all of the time, and the only constant I think I've determined here is with the shva.  I only see vav do this when the shva on one of those letters is the vowel.  Furthermore, I don't hear this all of the time.  I often hear (especially in the younger Israelis) ve being used constantly and u being dropped entirely.  If I'm incorrect, please tell me.  If I am correct, though, my question to you is should I follow that "u is too much work" trend?  When this sort of thing happens in a language, it seems like the people who steadfastly adhere to the more correct rule are perceived as condescending/snobby.  Unless I'm making a point to speak with some outrageously strange accent (which I may very well do), I'd prefer to avoid this.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post, listen to my butchering of your tongue, and providing me with feedback.  I'm happy to be here and hope to get to know you all.

Peace.


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## Albert Schlef

I'm just a layman. I hope other will chime in too. I think, your post being so long, people won't notice the link you gave:



> picosong.com/47UN/ - This is just a couple of sentences,



You sound good.

- As for your /r/, it didn't caught my attention (I'm Israeli), which means that it's ok!
- You should pronounce it /raTZIti lada'at/, not /RAteti lada'at/.
- Pronounce it /ktsat/, not /ketsat/, if you want to pass as an Israeli.
- In the way you pronounce the language names one hears something foreign: you prononce it, I think, like /ruseeyt/, /araveeyt/, whereas an Israeli would pronounce it /rusit/, /aravit/.
- Your /L/ is ok (most Americans pronounce it differently, you know).

(We could learn more if you talked longer than 15 seconds, though.)



> What I've noticed is that while adults often do have trouble with language acquisition and in adopting new accents, the more determinative factor lies within the sense of identity.



Yeah, I've read an article talking about a research that arrived at this conclusion. This certainly gives us "old geezers" hope 



> [I hear with younger Israelis] ve being used constantly and u being dropped entirely
> [...]
> people who steadfastly adhere to the more correct rule are perceived as condescending/snobby.
> [...]
> should I follow that "u is too much work" trend?



You're correct in your observations.

(The /u/ isn't really "too much work". It's like the "sun vs moon letters" in Arabic: it looks "much work" when you first read about it, but then it comes almost naturally. While there are several rules, two or three of them alone cover 95% of the cases.)

I don't have an answer for you. Most Israelis (almost all, probably) would tell you "talk with /ve/, not /u/!". You'll be fine if you do. But I think you should at least know the basic rules. Since you're not among speakers (and moreover not among family/friends (they're the most likely to think of you as "Going Snob") I'd suggest that you *do* learn to speak with /u/. Mainly because it's not really hard and because I myself appreciate "correct" Hebrew. But if it's too much work for you, forget it.


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## hadronic

/ve/ for all cases is fine, except set phrases like ובכן /uvxen/ ,  I don't think anybody would say /vebeken/  (as opposed to   ובכיתה  /uvxita/  vs  /vebekita/, everybody will use the latter).

What is your mother tongue ? I didn't catch your name, but it doesn't sound English, neither did your accent as a whole.
(edit: just saw you updated your native language in your profile... so, good job !)


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## theunderachiever

Albert Schlef said:


> I'm just a layman. I hope other will chime in too. I think, your post being so long, people won't notice the link you gave:
> 
> 
> 
> You sound good.
> 
> - As for your /r/, it didn't caught my attention (I'm Israeli), which means that it's ok!
> - You should pronounce it /raTZIti lada'at/, not /RAteti lada'at/.
> - Pronounce it /ktsat/, not /ketsat/, if you want to pass as an Israeli.
> - In the way you pronounce the language names one hears something foreign: you prononce it, I think, like /ruseeyt/, /araveeyt/, whereas an Israeli would pronounce it /rusit/, /aravit/.
> - Your /L/ is ok (most Americans pronounce it differently, you know).
> 
> (We could learn more if you talked longer than 15 seconds, though.)



Ah, wonderful.  I'd have assumed the worst aspect of my spoken Hebrew would have been the pronunciation of reish.  I'm pleased to hear it is not.  My spirits are, however, a bit dampened by the news that I've apparently been mishearing yod as a long e when it is in fact a short i.  Oh well, shame on me for not listening more carefully.

Regarding the ve/u dilemma, I was going to make sure I knew the rules inside and out, I just wasn't sure which pattern of speech was more prevalent/what was more widely accepted.  I suppose it always depends on the social context, but all I had to go on were my observations based on a very limited understanding of the tongue.  Thank you much.



hadronic said:


> /ve/ for all cases is fine, except set phrases like ובכן /uvxen/ ,  I don't think anybody would say /vebeken/  (as opposed to   ובכיתה  /uvxita/  vs  /vebekita/, everybody will use the latter).
> 
> What is your mother tongue ? I didn't catch your name, but it doesn't sound English, neither did your accent as a whole.
> (edit: just saw you updated your native language in your profile... so, good job !)



Yes yes, American English indeed.  I actually thought about lying and picking Esperanto as my native tongue in order to RECEIVE feedback on my accent, because I've heard some pretty out-there guesses.  I've spoken with Israelis on a few occasions, and all of them have been surprised to learn I am American.  Some assume French, but apparently I speak with some Russian and/or Arabic inflection in my voice, because I've gotten those guesses as well.  No one says American, so I was quite curious as to what it sounded like.


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## hadronic

Moreover, regarding the ve/u dilemma, it's not only that a /ve/ vs. /u/ : the full rule tells you when to say /ve/, /va/, /vi/, /vo/ or /u/.
My favorite example are the numbers from 21 to 29: esrim ve-akat, u-shtaym, ve-shalosh, ve-arba, ve-khamesh, va-shesh, va-sheva, u-shmone, va-teysha. You have /ve/ 4 times, /u/ 2 times and /va/ 3 times. All of these intricacies are of course leveled out to /ve/ throughout in colloquial speech.


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## theunderachiever

hadronic said:


> Moreover, regarding the ve/u dilemma, it's not only that a /ve/ vs. /u/ : the full rule tells you when to say /ve/, /va/, /vi/, /vo/ or /u/.
> My favorite example are the numbers from 21 to 29: esrim ve-akat, u-shtaym, ve-shalosh, ve-arba, ve-khamesh, va-shesh, va-sheva, u-shmone, va-teysha. You have /ve/ 4 times, /u/ 2 times and /va/ 3 times. All of these intricacies are of course leveled out to /ve/ throughout in colloquial speech.



Oh, fantastic.  I knew of /va/ /ve/, as I knew of /ha/ /he/, but not the other variants.  Is there a good reference that covers the phonological and grammatical aspects of the language which I should look into that will cover this adequately?  I'm currently reading A Reference Grammar of Modern Hebrew by Edna Amir Cohen and Shmuel Bolozky. Thus far it seems comprehensive and is well written.  I like it quite a lot and imagine it will cover this rule, but another or reference or two to read wouldn't hurt.


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## hadronic

The rules for  /ha/ vs /he/ on one side, for /va/ vs /ve/ on another side, and for  /la/ vs /le/,  /ba/ vs /be/,  /ka/ vs /ke/ on yet another side, are all 3 quite different. The more obscure, exotic one being /ha/ vs /he/ that absolutely no one would ever apply even in the most conservative settings imho (ha-milon _he_-xadash, _he_-`anan ba-shamayim, etc...).
The rules for v- and l-/b-/k- share more similarities, but v- has more intricacies.

The book you site of course covers it very well. I think in this forum, there must have been a couple of such topics (as it _is _a recurrent topic...  )


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## theunderachiever

Oh, and to all speakers of Hebrew (L1 or L2), I would really appreciate hearing what origin my accent seems to have to you.  It holds no importance, but I tend to adopt a mixture of accents in languages other than my mother tongue.  I think this is a result of studying multiple languages.  I speak each one with a different accent, apparently, but never know which I sound like.  I'm curious with Hebrew which it is.  Here's to hoping it's not an Afrikaans accent. (Blech.[to Afrikaaners, I'm actually intrigued by Afrikaans])


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## hadronic

Does the "R" you use for Hebrew any different from the "R" you use for French ?

One thing you do well compared to other Americans I know, is that you're able to use short vowels. For some reasons, most Americans I know use long vowels, leading to simple sentences that end up taking _full minutes_ to utter.
Ah-nee mey-lah-meyd ee-vreet, key-shey ah-nee rotsey ley-dah-bare.... English does have short vowels, but some reason, they use none...


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## theunderachiever

hadronic said:


> The rules for  /ha/ vs /he/ on one side, for /va/ vs /ve/



Is /ha/ /he/ truly that uncommon?  Is it only used at higher registers?

Oh I imagine so. I went back about 10 pages today and uncovered a wealth of information. Lots of questions answered I had wondered for some time. I'm sure I'll eventually stumble across those answers if I don't read them in this book first.

Any other references you might recommend to this aspiring linguist?


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## theunderachiever

hadronic said:


> Does the "R" we use for Hebrew any different from the "R" you use for French ?
> 
> One thing you do well compared to other Americans I know, is that you're able to use short vowels. For some reasons, most Americans I know use long vowels, leading to simple sentences that end up taking _full minutes_ to utter.
> Ah-nee mey-lah-meyd ee-vreet, key-shey ah-nee rotsey ley-dah-bare.... English does have short vowels, but some reason, they use none...



Strange.  I see no reason why this would be common among Americans.  Really.  Why would they do that?

The R I use for French I think is close to or identical to the French R.  I hear a difference between the Israeli and French "R"s, but this seems to be such a point of contention in Hebrew. I think the IPA lacks a character for ר. The French R really seems to emphasize its fricative nature, whereas Hebrew reflects the German tendency (and sometimes French) to utilize a uvular tap.  There is no hard and fast rule, and it seems to depend upon its position in the word, but I'd place ר between the fricative and the trill, favoring the fricative more but incorporating the clarity found in the German uvular trill or tap.  This varies from speaker to speaker, of course, and I think in general usage, the articulation of the trill serves mostly as an emphatic device, but it has influenced the sound of the uvular fricative to the point in which it could be considered a new consonant, IMO.

Long response to a simple inquiry...my apologies. Language fascinates me in general, and this particular point has interested me a great deal.  "R"s are always fun.


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## hadronic

The R question comes very often on this board, and I will just summarize my thoughts in 2 items :
- Funny, you're not the only one saying that, but as a French native speaker I find Israeli R exactly the same as French R (except, after a voiceless stop, French will assimilate R to its voiceless counterpart, meaning ח), 
- I prefer to describe French R (hence Israeli R as well) as a uvular approximant, although all 4 realisations are possible in French French depending on the context: uvular trill, uvular fricative, uvular approximant, pharyngeal fricative (like Arabic `ayn / ע, but sounds dialectal).


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## hadronic

I didn't find any mention of ha/he in Coffin's book... Does it even talk about it ? Coffin is generally very modern hebrew oriented, meaning, very profound, underlying mechanisms that any thorough Biblical Hebrew book would handle, are missing entirely in Coffin. Because I feel like the focus of his book is more on how people actually perceive their own language, rather than explaining *why*. As if, say, an alien would come down to Israel and would try to describe the language as it actually sees it. So either you accept the weirdness of certain mechanisms, or you call them "exceptions", or at times, "higher register" , or you just ignore them and don't even talk about them (more often than not).
(like you can teach English without mentioning the Great Vowel Shift at all, and just consider that many alternations are pure randomness, but when you actually learn about it, it makes so many things sooo clearer...)


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## theunderachiever

hadronic said:


> I didn't find any mention of ha/he in Coffin's book... Does it even talk about it ? Coffin is generally very modern hebrew oriented, meaning, very profound, underlying mechanisms that any thorough Biblical Hebrew book would handle, are missing entirely in Coffin. Because I feel like the focus of his book is more on how people actually perceive their own language, rather than explaining *why*. As if, say, an alien would come down to Israel and would try to describe the language as it actually sees it. So either you accept the weirdness of certain mechanisms, or you call them "exceptions", or at times, "higher register" , or you just ignore them and don't even talk about them (more often than not).
> (like you can teach English without mentioning the Great Vowel Shift at all, and just consider that many alternations are pure randomness, but when you actually learn about it, it makes so many things sooo clearer...)



I have not yet gotten to a point in which that is discussed yet.  I got the book last night and read through about 150 pages, being the first language text I've read in some time, but most of what I read pertained to binyanim and some archaic forms I didn't even think were really used outside of a biblical context.  I like the book, but I will have to end up finding another book or two to feel like I've gotten enough of a grasp on the basic principles of Hebrew grammar.


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## theunderachiever

hadronic said:


> The R question comes very often on this board, and I will just summarize my thoughts in 2 items :
> - Funny, you're not the only one saying that, but as a French native speaker I find Israeli R exactly the same as French R (except, after a voiceless stop, French will assimilate R to its voiceless counterpart, meaning ח),
> - I prefer to describe French R (hence Israeli R as well) as a uvular approximant, although all 4 realisations are possible in French French depending on the context: uvular trill, uvular fricative, uvular approximant, pharyngeal fricative (like Arabic `ayn / ע, but sounds dialectal).



I think this is analogous to the Spanish /β/ and the English /v/ (or /b/, for that matter).  It is for all intents and purposes the same to most.  Many texts (incorrectly) say it's the same.  The point of articulation is _nearly_ the same, but it's still a different sound.  It is originated by manipulating the same point, more or less, on the mouth as the English /v/ or /b/ but the lip contacts the upper teeth in order for it to be produced.  The end result is a sound in between a /b/ or a /v/, which often shifts to something like a /v/, but is in and of itself, a bit ambiguous in nature.  Maybe that is the nature of fricative consonants altogether, but that same ambiguity seems to be present in the Israeli take on the voiced uvular fricative/trill (I wouldn't classify this as an approximant in most cases, just a couple.)

It DOES, however, sound nearly identical, and the differences I refer to are so subtle I have difficulty conveying them through language.  So it's very possible I'm hallucinating/mishearing this.  Many people maintain the same opinion as you on the subject of */**ר/, and my opinion is very likely a result of a lack of familiarity with French.


*


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## Drink

theunderachiever said:


> Strange.  I see no reason why this would be common among Americans.  Really.  Why would they do that?



This is the common pronunciation for those Americans who have absolutely no desire to pronounce things correctly and so they simply map the closest English sound to each Hebrew sound and stick with it. Americans who try early on not to sound American will usually succeed.


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## tFighterPilot

Perhaps the most recognizable trait of French accent in Hebrew is the substitution of ר with ח/כ and vice versa according to its place in the word, much like Japanese speakers in English substitute R with L.


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## origumi

tFighterPilot said:


> Perhaps the most recognizable trait of French accent in Hebrew is the substitution of ר with ח/כ and vice versa according to its place in the word


We had a nice example of this in a thread that was opened this week and then removed. A French speaking Hebrew student wrote down words he heard in a lesson and, as you mention, swapped ח and ר more than once. So it's not only the French mouth that says it wrong, it's also the French ear that has hard time telling the difference.


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## hadronic

As said before, the two sounds are basically the same phoneme in French, just like the voiced /l/ in "peul" and the voiceless /l°/ in "peuple", difference which is rather big, but not phonemic. 

Then, even though the French ear would make the difference between ר and ח, French orthography offers no means to denote them, so they both will be "r"  anyway...


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## hadronic

Also, to the question, does ח sound like a /r/ to the French ear: no, it doesn't. That sounds sticks out sharply as very foreign, _even though_ French does utter some in words like "ocre", "tartre", "train",...   i.e., we need to have a voiceless assimilation context for it to not sound foreign.


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