# Ich möchte Vs. Ich hätte gern



## guyper

'Ich möchte Vs. Ich hätte gern'

1.Ich möchte eine Cola
2.Ich hätte gern eine Cola

How do I know when I should say möchte instead hätte gern and do they both literally translate 'I would like.....'?

Thank you


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## Robocop

guyper said:


> 1.Ich möchte eine Cola
> 2.Ich hätte gern eine Cola


In my opinion these two phrases are used indiscriminately by native speakers (at least I do so).


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## Spectre scolaire

Robocop said:
			
		

> these two phrases are used indiscriminately by native speakers


 Indeed. You can add _gern(e)_ to 1., but you can’t omit it from 2.:

1. Ich möchte gern eine Cola.
2. *Ich hätte eine Cola.

Hence, the construction _hätte gerne_ functions, in fact, as a verb, cf gernhaben, “mögen”.
 ​


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## elroy

Spectre scolaire said:


> Hence, the construction _hätte gerne_ functions, in fact, as a verb, cf gernhaben, “mögen”.


 I don't think this comparison is helpful.  First of all, "gern" does not work like a separable prefix, and "gern haben" is not always interchangeable with "mögen."

When I offer you coffee I can say "Magst Du einen Kaffee?" but I can't say "Hast Du einen Kafee gern"?

I suggest we keep our answers simple and clear so as not to confuse beginners!


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## gembo

Although they're definitely interchangeable, I personally consider "Ich hätte gern(e)" the more polite version.


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## cyanista

My impression has been that *möchte* expresses a wish and *hätte* *gern* is typically used when asking for things in a store or ordering food/drinks.

Imagine such a dialogue:

Vater: Was möchtest du trinken?
Tochter: Ich möchte eine Cola.
Kellner: Was darf es sein?
Vater: Wir hätten gern zwei Colas.


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## Robocop

cyanista said:


> My impression has been that *möchte* expresses a wish and *hätte* *gern* is typically used when asking for things in a store or ordering food/drinks.
> 
> Imagine such a dialogue:
> 
> Vater: Was möchtest du trinken?
> Tochter: Ich möchte eine Cola. (wish!?)
> Kellner: Was darf es sein?
> Vater: Wir hätten gern zwei Colas.  (order/asking for sth.!?)



The dialogue could go like this as well:

Kellner (zur Tochter): Was möchtest du trinken?
Tochter: Ich möchte eine Cola. (order/asking for sth.!?)
Kellner (zum Vater): Und was nehmen Sie?
Vater: Ich hätte gern ein Bier. (order/asking for sth.!?)


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## cyanista

But:

Kellner (zur Tochter): Was möchtest du trinken? Was hättest du gern zu trinken? 
Tochter: Ich möchte eine Cola. (order/asking for sth.!?) 
Kellner (zum Vater): Und was nehmen Sie?
Vater: Ich hätte gern ein Bier. (order/asking for sth.!?) Ich möchte ein Bier. - a much less likely answer IMHO.

I will not insist on this but *möchte* seems to me to have a connotation of sharing a wish even in an order and *hätte gern* seems a typical "orderspeak".


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## rabulist

elroy said:


> I don't think this comparison is helpful.  First of all, "gern" does not work like a separable prefix, and "gern haben" is not always interchangeable with "mögen."
> 
> When I offer you coffee I can say "Magst Du einen Kaffee?" but I can't say "Hast Du einen Kafee gern"?



The correct form is 'Hättest du gern einen Kaffee?'. Both verbs are equal in their "konjunktivischen" form. Used in "Konjunktiv" they both express an affection that is automatically interpreted (starre Metapher) as a desire. In "Indikativ" they slightly differ.


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## Robocop

rabulist said:


> The correct form is 'Hättest du gern einen Kaffee?'. Both verbs are equal in their "konjunktivischen" form. Used in "Konjunktiv" they both express an affection that is automatically interpreted (starre Metapher) as a desire. In "Indikativ" they slightly differ.



- Ich *mag *Kaffee. Ich *habe *Kaffee *gern*. (liking, fancy)
- Ich *möchte *einen Kaffee. Ich *hätte gern *einen Kaffee. (wish)

- *Magst *du Kaffee? *Hast *du Kaffee *gern*? (liking, fancy)
- *Möchtest *du (einen*) Kaffee? *Hättest *du *gern *(einen*) Kaffee?

* optional!


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## Robocop

cyanista said:


> But:
> 
> Kellner (zur Tochter): Was möchtest du trinken? Was hättest du gern zu trinken?
> Tochter: Ich möchte eine Cola. (order/asking for sth.!?)
> Kellner (zum Vater): Und was nehmen Sie?
> Vater: Ich hätte gern ein Bier. (order/asking for sth.!?) Ich möchte ein Bier. - a much less likely answer IMHO. ==> why? because it is beer instead of cola? Both sentences (father and daughter) express a similar order!
> 
> I will not insist on this but *möchte* seems to me to have a connotation of sharing a wish even in an order and *hätte gern* seems a typical "orderspeak".


I am afraid you are mistaken. I think you interpret something into it that is just not there.


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## rabulist

Robocop said:


> - Ich *mag *Kaffee. Ich *habe *Kaffee *gern*. (liking, fancy)
> - Ich *möchte *einen Kaffee. Ich *hätte gern *einen Kaffee. (wish)
> 
> - *Magst *du Kaffee? *Hast *du Kaffee *gern*? (liking, fancy)
> - *Möchtest *du (einen*) Kaffee? *Hättest *du *gern *(einen*) Kaffee?
> 
> * optional!



The original meaning of a word never changes with the grammatical mood (Modus). So it's still an affection - but because it's expressed as "not real", it's unconsciously interpreted as a wish. That's what I meant with "starre Metapher".


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## elroy

My point was that you can use "Magst Du einen Kaffee?" to ask if someone would like coffee now (so not whether they like coffee in general), but you can't use "Hast Du einen Kafee gern?" to express that.


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## sokol

gembo said:


> Although they're definitely interchangeable, I personally consider "Ich hätte gern(e)" the more polite version.



Yes, in a way it is.
Note that both "möchte" und "hätte gern" are extremely similar in connotation and that there's only a very slight difference:

- "ich möchte gern": this is a more _direct _expression of a wish; so in a way, if I use this I'm saying that I want something for myself (a direct wish)
- "ich hätte gern": this is more _indirect _as it is more a way of saying that I would be happy if I had something (an indirect wish)

Both are polite and both are appropriate. And probably there are also regional differences in the use of both and different concepts of what is appropriate when - I don't think that we could reach here in this thread an agreement between native speakers which phrasing would be appropriate when.


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## Robocop

elroy said:


> My point was that you can use "Magst Du einen Kaffee?" to ask if someone would like coffee now (so not whether they like coffee in general), but *you can't use* "Hast Du einen Kaffee gern?" to express that.



Well, you cannot use the phrase above because the *word order* is wrong. However, you *could *say "Hast Du gern einen Kaffee?" (this is correct German!) though "Hättest Du gern ..." is more polite and therefore the preferred form. 
On the other hand I can assure you that in (Swiss) dialect the forms "Hesch gärn ...?" (Hast Du gern ...?) and "Hättisch gärn ...?" (Hättest Du gern ...?) coexist on a common basis.

- Ich *mag *Kaffee. Ich *habe *Kaffee *gern*. (liking, fancy)
- Ich *möchte *einen Kaffee. Ich *hätte gern *einen Kaffee. (wish)
- Ich *mag *einen Kaffee. Ich *habe gern* einen Kaffee. (wish) ==> The latter form, though grammatically correct, is used rarely as it sounds a bit odd.
Here is an example: If someone asked you, "*Magst *Du einen Kaffee?", you would answer in the same way, "Ja, ich *mag *einen" (and not "Ja, ich möchte einen").

- *Magst *du Kaffee? *Hast *du Kaffee *gern*? (liking, fancy)
- *Möchtest *du (einen*) Kaffee? *Hättest *du *gern *(einen*) Kaffee? (wish)
- *Magst *du _einen_** Kaffee? *Hast *du *gern *_einen_** Kaffee? (wish)

* optional
** mandatory


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## elroy

Yes, I purposely put the "gern" at the end, to show that it doesn't work like a separable prefix.

And as far as I know, you do not use "Hast Du gern einen Kaffee?" to offer someone coffee - at least in Germany.  "Magst Du einen Kaffee?", on the other hand, is common.


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## Robocop

elroy said:


> Yes, I purposely put the "gern" at the end, to show that it doesn't work like a separable prefix.



I find this reasoning quite strange.  Let me show why: 
If you elaborate on, (your quote!) 
"_When I offer you coffee I can say "*Magst *Du einen Kaffee?" but *I can't say "Hast* Du einen Kaffee *gern*"?_" (where the correct *but rarely used* form is "Hast Du gern einen Kaffee?"),
 then you could argue *along the very same line*, 
"_When I offer you coffee I can say "*Möchtest *Du einen Kaffee?" but *I can't say "Hättest* Du einen Kaffee *gern*"?_" (where the correct *and commonly used *form is "Hättest Du gern einen Kaffee?")

Can you see the logic of my objection?


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## elroy

Oh my - I see that I've caused a lot of confusion!  Sorry about that.

My main point was to object to the confusing claim that "hätte gern" functioned like a verb, namely "gernhaben" with the meaning "mögen."  If that were true, then you would be able to use "Hast Du einen Kaffee gern?" to mean "Magst Du einen Kaffee?".

But you can't.  I think there are two reasons for that:

-The word order is off. (We agree on that point.)
-"Gern haben" would not be used that way, as far as I know. (You seem to think it is fine, but unusual.)

I think "Hast Du gern einen Kaffee?" would sound really odd if used to offer someone coffee.  I am fairly certain that Germans would invariably use "Hättest Du gern einen Kaffee?" (so Konjunktiv, unlike the case with "mögen," in which either Konjunktiv or Indikativ could be used).

Perhaps the situation is different in Switzerland.  Or maybe I'm just wrong about Germany.  All I can say is that I've never come acrosss "Hast Du gern X?" used to mean "Would you like X?".  And I've heard "Magst Du X?" and "Hättest Du gern X?" a lot.


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## sokol

Robocop said:


> Well, you cannot use the phrase above because the *word order* is wrong. However, you *could *say "Hast Du gern einen Kaffee?" (this is correct German!) though "Hättest Du gern ..." is more polite and therefore the preferred form.
> On the other hand I can assure you that in (Swiss) dialect the forms "Hesch gärn ...?" (Hast Du gern ...?) and "Hättisch gärn ...?" (Hättest Du gern ...?) coexist on a common basis.


With due respect, I cannot agree wholehartedly.
I think some of the examples you are quoting might be regional, or at least it would be rather strange to use them like this in Austria (at least the northern and eastern parts of it; I'm not so sure about the west, though; and I don't know about Switzerland and Germany, of course).
- **Hast du gern *einen Kaffee? (if I imagine this in Swiss dialect, that is 'hesch gärn ...', it sounds quite natural and okay to my ears: because to my ears that sounds like 'hättest' and not like 'hast', but I am no specialst on Swiss German - if you say it's 'hast' I can only assume you're right; however, in my dialect I am absolutely sure that it would have to be 'hättst gern ...')
- (*?) *Hättest du gern *einen Kaffee? (I'm not sure if I should consider this correct Standard German; it's certainly correct in dialect: 'hättst gern')
_* = incorrect in my opinion at least in Austrian use_

I would say as follows (your examples in blue letters):
- *Magst *du Kaffee? *Hast *du Kaffee *gern*? (liking, fancy)
Both are grammatically correct, of course, but I think the first one would be much more typical here in Austria.
 - *Möchtest *du (einen*) Kaffee? *Hättest *du *gern *(einen*) Kaffee? (wish)
Again, both are correct. In Austria, in colloquial speech you would not omit the indefinite article 'einen', in both cases - and in _dialect _the use of the article would be obligatory. (Or if you didn't use the article the meaning would be changed slightly, in Austrian dialects.)
- *Magst *du _einen_** Kaffee? *Hast *du *gern *_einen_** Kaffee? (wish)
 The first one is correct and standard German in my opinion and it could be used in Austrian dialects too.
The second one, as stated above, to me does not sound like standard German and would be incorrect in Austrian dialects (at least in the ones I know quite good, so probably with the exception of Western Austria).
 * optional
** mandatory
 On your optional/mandatory marks I agree.


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## RockGuitarizt

Just look at the words for what they mean

Ich möchte = I would like

Ich hätte gern = I would gladly have

Naturally, Ich möchte sounds a bit more direct. In english, I think it can be compared to "I'd like a beer" and "I'll have a beer". Both are used equally 

Would one ever say "Kann ich ein Bier haben?"


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## berndf

RockGuitarizt said:


> Would one ever say "Kann ich ein Bier haben?"


Yes, that is possible too.


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## Hutschi

There is a special "restaurant language" with own rules which usually do not apply elsewere.

Example:
The direct way is:
Möchten Sie noch einen Kaffee?

The restaurant language ("Kellnersprache") is "Wollten sie noch einen Kaffee?"
It uses the past tense to express  a polite form.


> Originally Posted by *RockGuitarizt*
> 
> 
> Would one ever say "Kann ich ein Bier haben?"


I would say: "Kann ich bitte ein Bier haben?" - Here "bitte" expresses the polite form. It is an idiom, and some wiseacre would answer "Yes, you can." - without bringing it.


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## RockGuitarizt

Hutschi said:


> It is an idiom, and some wiseacre would answer "Yes, you can." - without bringing it.



As an American student, I know that this sort of remark is said by teachers constantly.
The response to "can I go to the bathroom" is usually something like "I don't know. Can you?" since "may I" is more correct grammatically. I don't see what the fuss is about, everyone seems to accept it and it doesn't sound wrong to most peoples' ears.


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## Derselbe

First of all, is don't think it is usefull for foreigners to think of "hätte gern" and "möchte" as Konjunktiv, since probably 90% of German natives don't know that both are in fact Konjunktiv. This is at least true for "möchte" which is becoming an independet verb in people's minds. Most people don't know/feel the connection between "mögen" and "möchte" anymore.

The two sentences
a) Ich mag Pizza.
b) Ich möchte Pizza.
would be considered completely different in their meanings by the vast vajority of natives. Of course one would interpret a) if said to a waiter. But if you use the two alternatives in any other situation their meaning is completely different. For example, if you are watching TV with a friend and all of a sudden say "Ich mag Pizza" he'd probably say "Klar, jeder mag Pizza". If you say "Ich möchte Pizza" the answer would be "Sollen wir eine bestellen?".

As regards "hätte gern":
a) Ich hätte gern eine Pizza.
b) Ich habe Pizza gern.
c) * Ich habe gern eine Pizza.
d) * Ich habe Pizza gern ohne Tomaten.

First of all, b) is a different verb. While in a) c) and d) the verb is "haben" and "gern" is an adverb, in b) the verb is "gernhaben". 
In my opinion, a) is the only reasonable way to place an order. Personally I don't even know what c) would mean. It is gramatical but to me it sounds just odd. d) is still odd but makes some more sense than c). 

In the end, there are far more possibilities to place an order in an restaurant than "Ich möchte" and "Ich hätte gern".
For example:
"Ich nehme die Pizza."
"Für mich die Pizza."
"Mit bringen Sie die Pizza."

What you use depends much more on personal preference and the level of politness than gramatical considerations.

In my opinion "Ich mag Pizza" and "Ich habe gern Pizza" do not belong to the reasonable possibilities, though.


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## Derselbe

Hutschi said:


> The restaurant language ("Kellnersprache") is "Wollten sie noch einen Kaffee?"
> It uses the past tense to express  a polite form.



Where did you hear a waiter say such a sentence? The only situation i can think of at the moment is that you already ordered and the waiter forgot it.


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## berndf

Derselbe said:


> Where did you hear a waiter say such a sentence? The only situation i can think of at the moment is that you already ordered and the waiter forgot it.


I agree. The interpretation as past indicative (rather than subjunctive) preveils. I would also understand the sentence to mean: "Remind me; did you say you wanted another coffee?".


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## Hutschi

I heard it in restaurants. 

The situation is: I had already ordered a cup of coffee and it is empty now. The waiter comes and asks: "Wollten Sie noch einen Kaffee?" - This means: "Möchten Sie noch einen Kaffee bestellen?"


Here are similar examples from Sebastian Sick:

http://www.kolumnen.de/sick-011104.html

It is called: 
*Imperfekt der Höflichkeit*

(the imperfect of politeness)


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> http://www.kolumnen.de/sick-011104.html
> 
> It is called:
> *Imperfekt der Höflichkeit*
> 
> (the imperfect of politeness)


 
All of the valid examples as some kind of requests for reminders: "Wie war Ihr Name?", "Waren Sie die Currywurst?". "Ich hätte gerne..." is not a vaid example because it is Konjunktiv II.


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## Derselbe

Actually I don't think Sebastian Sick is a source you want to refer to for good German...

Anyway, there is a difference between "Also, Sie wollten den Seeteufel, richtig?" which definitly describes a situation where the customer had already ordered and the waiter just wants to confirm, on the one hand, and "Wie war Ihr Name", on the other hand.

Other examples for the latter would be:
"Sie hatten das Schnitzel, oder?" (while serving)
"Bei ihnen kam noch ein Bier, oder?" (Kind of excusing for not having served it yet)
Most coll. example:
"Was hatten sie?" "Ich war die Bockwurst."

In all of these cases the past tense is justified by the fact that the order has been placed before. It's more an issue at to whether the correct verb is used rather than whether the correct tense is used.

"Also, Sie wollten den Seeteufel, richtig?" means "Also, Sie haben den Seeteufel bestellt, richtig?"
"Sie hatten das Schnitzel, oder?" -> "Sie haben das Schnitzel bestellt, oder?"

Besides that, there is a trend to use past tense when trying to recall information.

"Wie war Ihr Name?"
"Wo war nochmal der Blumenladen?"
"Welches Buch sollte ich lesen?"

The reason is that the information was present once but got lost somehow. So the tense refers to the time when the speaker knew it.

If you said "Wie ist ihr Name?" it would sound like you hadn't known before. Therefore it is not the sentence you want to use when you are asking someone to give you an information he already had given you before.


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## Aloski

"Ich möchte = I would like"  or: I want 
I find "ich hätte gerne" much more polite. 
"Ich moechte / will, dass du das tust" ist stärker und bestimmter als:  
"Ich hätte gerne, dass du das tust" 
Auch in anderen Sprachen gibt es die zwei Formen und ich wuerde sagen ihre Funktion ist ähnlich:
Fr: Je veux vs. je voudrais
Sp:Quiero   vs. querria

"Would one ever say "Kann ich ein Bier haben?" 

Yes, one might exceptionally; but then with exclamation mark!
Der Kellner lief schon dreimal vorbei und ignorierte Sie jedesmal und allmaehlich werden Sie sauer.


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## RockGuitarizt

Sagt man "Ich hätte Wasser gern" oder "Ich hätte gern das Wasser"?


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## Aloski

Ich hätte Eva gern, wenn sie netter zu mir wäre. (Ja, das kann man sagen). Gernhaben - besonders wenn man von Personen spricht. 
- Diesen Pulli hab ich besonders gern. Ich trag ihn sehr gern. 

"Ich hätte gern das Wasser" - und nicht die Coca Cola die daneben steht. - Auch akzeptabel ind diesem Zusammenhang. 
Ansonsten wuerde ich sagen:
Ich haette gerne (ein Glas/ eine Flasche) (Sprudel)wasser /. Mineralwasser / Leitungswasser. 
Ich hoffe das hilft.


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## DerKommissar

Ok, after reading through this thread,  there seems to be some confusion with using möchten/mögen, especially in some of the earlier posts.

As a native speaker of both English and German, I would like to clarify that the verb mögen should be used only when expressing that you like something (not "would like to have"; which is möchten), and mögen should *NEVER* be used to place an order in a restaurant.

For example:  Ich mag das! = I LIKE that!
                     Ich mag das rote Auto! = I LIKE the red car!

If you use mögen in a restaurant, all you are doing is reaffirming that you like something specific.  

If I were working as a server in a restaurant, and someone said to me "Ich mag Kafee," I would simply respond with "Ich auch!"

The most polite way to order coffee would be to say "Ich hätte gern einen Kaffee."  You could add "bitte" at the end, but since you are using the subjunctive of haben, it already is considered the polite form of a request.  But, it doesn't hurt to be extra nice, right?!  Also, ordering Coffee by saying "Ich möchte einen Kaffee, bitte" is very common place.  In my own preference, I use "Ich möchte..." almost ALL of the time.  

*HOWEVER*, when going to a fancy restaurant in Germany with family, or co-workers, I use "Ich hätte gern" with the *DEFINITE ARTICLE*.  

For example, when going to a nice restaurant, and ordering a steak, you would say: 

*CORRECT*:  Ich hätte gern *das* Beefsteak mit...
*IMPROMPER*:  Ich hätte gern *ein* Beefsteak mit...

Again, you apply the deffinte article only when ordering at nice formal place, and not informal places like McDonald's or Starbucks.

Hope this helps!


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## Hutschi

Ich habe mehrere Einwände. 


DerKommissar said:


> As a native speaker of both English and German, I would like to clarify that the verb mögen should be used only when expressing that you like something (not "would like to have"; which is möchten), and mögen should *NEVER* be used to place an order in a restaurant.


I think, this depends on the region. I would not use it myself but heared it sometimes.


DerKommissar said:


> If I were working as a server in a restaurant, and someone said to me "Ich mag Kafee," I would simply respond with "Ich auch!"


This is most likely an improper answer. It shows only that you do not consider the wishes of the customer but want to show your knowledge. So it would be in the most cases the wrong answer. A proper answer would be: "Möchten Sie eine Tasse? Mit Milch oder Zucker? 


DerKommissar said:


> *HOWEVER*, when going to a fancy restaurant in Germany with family, or co-workers, I use "Ich hätte gern" with the *DEFINITE ARTICLE*.
> 
> For example, when going to a nice restaurant, and ordering a steak, you would say:
> 
> *CORRECT*: Ich hätte gern *das* Beefsteak mit...
> *IMPROMPER*: Ich hätte gern *ein* Beefsteak mit...


I would use the definite article if I want a definite beefsteak, for example, pointing on it, or if I refer to a special meal on the menu.

In case this does not matter I would use the indefinite article. At least it tells how many I want.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> I would use the definite article if I want a definite beefsteak, for example, pointing on it, or if I refer to a special meal on the menu.


I agree. An example of a possible use of "ein" would be, if you didn't see the menu yet and said: "Ich hätte gerne ein Beefsteak, wenn Sie das haben."


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## RockGuitarizt

berndf said:


> I agree. An example of a possible use of "ein" would be, if you didn't see the menu yet and said: "Ich hätte gerne ein Beefsteak, wenn Sie das haben."



That reminds me. I was wondering which pronoun is used to ask if the restaurant offers something. So, according to your example sentence, can you say something like "Haben Sie Coca Cola?" as opposed to saying "Habt ihr Coca Cola?" to refer to the restaurant as a whole?


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## DerKommissar

You are correct with that one!  Best to use "Haben Sie..."


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## mannibreuckmann

RockGuitarizt said:


> That reminds me. I was wondering which pronoun is used to ask if the restaurant offers something. So, according to your example sentence, can you say something like "Haben Sie Coca Cola?" as opposed to saying "Habt ihr Coca Cola?" to refer to the restaurant as a whole?



"Haben Sie Coca Cola?" can refer to both, to the waiter and to the restaurant as a whole, because "Sie" can be singular OR plural. 

Here in the Rhineland, it is also possible to ask "Habt ihr Coca Cola" in restaurant without being inpolite.


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## DerKommissar

Der Grund für mein posting war Klarheit über die richtige und formelle Verwendung der deutschen Sprache zu geben welche von Englisch Muttersprachlern häufig nicht richtig gelernt wird.


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## Derselbe

DerKommissar said:


> Ok, after reading through this thread,  there seems to be some confusion with using möchten/mögen, especially in some of the earlier posts.
> 
> As a native speaker of both English and German, I would like to clarify that the verb mögen should be used only when expressing that you like something (not "would like to have"; which is möchten), and mögen should *NEVER* be used to place an order in a restaurant.



Just to prevent any missunderstandings.

Actually there is no verb "möchten" in German language. But it's okay for learners to think of it as a real verb as it makes it easier to understand the difference between "ich mag" and "ich möchte". 
But with growing understanding of German grammar, students should make themselfes aware of that (important) issue.

One reason for its importance is that you must not say things like: 
"Gestern war ich im Café und möchtete einen Kuchen, aber sie hatten keinen."
"Es ist nichts daran auszusetzen, mehr Geld als der Nachbar zu möchten."


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## berndf

Derselbe said:


> Actually there is no verb "möchten" in German language. But it's okay for learners to think of it as a real verb as it makes it easier to understand the difference between "ich mag" and "ich möchte".


From the perspective of an English speaker it is actually quite simple:
_Ich mag _(present indicative)_ = I like _(present indicative)
_Ich möchte _(past subjunctive) _= I would like _(conditional)

In German you avoid the conditional with modal verbs and use the past subjunctive instead:
_I *would like* to have a beer._
does not translate to
_Ich *würde* ein Bier haben *mögen*._
but to
_Ich *möchte* ein Bier._


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## Derselbe

berndf said:


> In German you avoid the conditional with modal verbs and use the past subjunctive instead:
> _I *would like* to have a beer._
> does not translate to
> _Ich *würde* ein Bier haben *mögen*._
> but to
> _Ich *möchte* ein Bier._



I can't quite follow your explainations. "Mögen" is not a modal verb in our context and what has "haben" to do with it. 

The conditional of "mögen" would be:
"Ich würde ein Bier mögen." which is just as strange as "Ich mag ein Bier.". But not because of the conditional, but because of the meaning of "mögen" which is different from "ich möchte".

Look at this sentence:
"Wenn du nicht immer so hochnäsig wärst, würde er dich sicher mögen."

No problem at all. The conditional of mögen is fine. It just has not the same meaning as the Konjunktiv II, which was explained throughout this thread.


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## berndf

Derselbe said:


> I can't quite follow your explainations. "Mögen" is not a modal verb in our context and what has "haben" to do with it.


In the English sentence
_I would like to have a beer._
"would like" is a modal form of the sentence
_I have a beer_
In German you use not the conditional but the past subjunctive, i.e. _ich möchte_ and not _ich würde mögen_. Like in English this is a courtesy phrase. In the sentence 
_Ich würde ein Bier mögen_
the verb _mögen_ is used literally and not as a courtesy phrase. This explains the difference.
The sentence
_Ich möchte ein Bier._
is just an abbreviation of 
_Ich möchte ein Bier haben._
much like youngsters today ask
_Kann ich Cola?_
instead of
_Kann ich Cola haben?_
But in _Ich möchte ein Bier_ the verb is still modal like in _Kann ich Cola?_ - even if the main verb is omitted.


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## Derselbe

berndf said:


> In the English sentence
> _I would like to have a beer._
> "would like" is a modal form of the sentence
> _I have a beer_
> In German you use not the conditional but the past subjunctive, i.e. _ich möchte_ and not _ich würde mögen_. Like in English this is a courtesy phrase.



The sentences
"I would like to have a beer." and
"Ich würde ein Bier haben mögen." are not constructed parallel.

The English sentences is, as you said, derived from
"I have a beer." -> "I like to have a beer." -> "I would like to have a beer."
So it that was identical with the German construction, it would be something like:
"Ich habe ein Bier." -> "Ich mag ein Bier haben." -> "Ich würde ein Bier haben mögen."

If that was the case, then "möchte haben" would make sense to replace "würde haben mögen". But there is one mistake in your chain of thoughts.

"I like to have a beer." does not translate to "Ich mag ein Bier haben." but rather to "Ich mag es ein Bier zu haben."

The problem is that neither "would" nor "would like" is a modal verb. If you want to translate "I would like to have a beer" literally into German than it'd be something like:
"Ich würde es mögen, ein Bier zu haben."

The German construction "Ich möchte ein Bier." is based on different ideas so I don't think the English "would like to" does help us much to understand it.



> The sentence
> _Ich möchte ein Bier._
> is just an abbreviation of
> _Ich möchte ein Bier haben._


_

_That actually is a very good thought. Maybe the Konjunktiv II of "mögen" was used together with haben so frequently that at some point it ate "haben". However, now it seams that "ich möchte" already contains the idea of possession so that "haben" is redundant.


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## berndf

Derselbe said:


> The sentences
> "I would like to have a beer." and
> "*Ich würde ein Bier haben mögen*." are not constructed parallel.
> 
> The English sentences is, as you said, derived from
> "I have a beer." -> "I like to have a beer." -> "I would like to have a beer."
> So it that was identical with the German construction, it would be something like:
> "Ich habe ein Bier." -> "Ich mag ein Bier haben." -> "*Ich würde ein Bier haben mögen*."


I see not the slightest difference between the two sentences in bold.



Derselbe said:


> If that was the case, then "möchte haben" would make sense to replace "würde haben mögen". But there is one mistake in your chain of thoughts.


Why wouldn't it? Just, you don't say "würde haben mögen" because you don't use the "würde" form with modals.



Derselbe said:


> The problem is that neither "would" nor "would like" is a modal verb. If you want to translate "I would like to have a beer" literally into German than it'd be something like:
> "Ich würde es mögen, ein Bier zu haben."


Admittedly, "would like to" is not a modal verb. But in its function in the sentence it is sufficiently close to that of a model verb that one should have no difficulty imagining how another language (German) could use a model verb as its equivalent.




Derselbe said:


> However, now it seams that "ich möchte" already contains the idea of possession so that "haben" is redundant.


Not really. You can use it with many different main verbs:
_Ich möchte den Film _*sehen*_._
_Ich möchte ein Bier _*trinken*_._
_Ich möchte Geld _*verdienen*_._


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## ABBA Stanza

Interesting discussion, guys! 



Derselbe said:


> Look at this sentence:
> "Wenn du nicht immer so hochnäsig wärst, würde er dich sicher mögen."


I think Bernd was talking about the case where the modal verbs are actually used as such, and not as regular (standalone) verbs, as in your example. So, we need to add another verb in there to illustrate Bernd's point. Let's take _einstellen_ as an example:

_"Wenn du nicht immer so hochnäsig wärst, *würde* er dich sicher *einstellen mögen*." _

_"Wenn du nicht immer so hochnäsig wärst, *möchte* er dich sicher *einstellen*." _



berndf said:


> Just, you don't say "würde haben mögen" because you don't use the "würde" form with modals.


One exception to this "rule" is the modal verb _wollen_, which can be used as a modal verb in combination with _würde_, probably because the subjunctive form is easily confused with the past tense in this case. For example:

_"Das *würde* ich *wissen wollen*." =_
_"I would want to know that."_

_"Das *wollte* ich *wissen*." =_
_"That's what I wanted to know."_



berndf said:


> much like youngsters today ask
> _Kann ich Cola?_


Interestingly, I've never heard this usage (thank God!). I'm obviously getting too old! 

Abba


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## Derselbe

ABBA Stanza said:


> Interesting discussion, guys!
> 
> 
> I think Bernd was talking about the case where the modal verbs are actually used as such,



But that's the point. Bernd is arguing that the German construction is identical with the English construction. The only difference is that German uses the Konjunktiv II instead of the conditional. But that statement is only true for "mögen" used as a modal verb. It does not work with the fullverb "mögen". Because the reduction is only made with modal verbs.

The problem is that there is no modal verb used in the English sentence "I would like to have...". So the statement that the German and English constructions are identical can't be true. In fact they are very different.

English uses the conditional of the fullverb "to like" to express a request. In German that would be "Ich würde es mögen ein Bier zu haben." Of course you can say that and people would understand you but that's not the way we usually do it. 

In German the Konjunktiv II of "mögen" splitted apart at some point and cut its own path. In my opinion that's a completely different idea and basis we are talking about here. So I don't think it's advisable to regard the constructions as correlative.


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## Hutschi

RockGuitarizt said:


> Would one ever say "Kann ich ein Bier haben?"



Yes, this is possible. 
Usually, I would include "bitte" if it is an order.

There are several similar forms:
Kann ich bitte ein Bier haben?
Kann ich bitte noch ein Bier haben? (an additional beer)
Kann ich bitte auch ein Bier haben? (the others have ordered beer, I want beer, too)

Many people do not say "bitte" or "danke", but I think this is just a little effort to say that you appreciate the other.


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## berndf

Derselbe said:


> But that's the point. Bernd is arguing that the German construction is identical with the English construction...


Maybe I expressed myself not very cunningly. My point was just that 
"Ich möchte ..." corresponds to "I would like to ..." in English and
"Ich mag ..." to "I like <noun> or "I like to <verb>"
This has nothing to do with whether or not the verb is modal in either language. This is a correspondence in usage and meaning not necessarily in syntactic form.

My reference to "mögen" being modal in "ich möchte" was just in order to explain why you use Konjunktiv II and not conditional in German. Nothing more.


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## berndf

ABBA Stanza said:


> _"Das *würde* ich *wissen wollen*." =_
> _"I would want to know that."_
> 
> _"Das *wollte* ich *wissen*." =_
> _"That's what I wanted to know."_


Indeed! I think this is because "wollte" is ambiguous; it is both, indicative and subjunctive. 


ABBA Stanza said:


> Interestingly, I've never heard this usage (thank God!). I'm obviously getting too old!


By daughter picked that up in the German school in Geneva. All the kids coming over from Germany say that. It was new to me as well. We (the parents) tried to contain it but to no avail. In a few years it will be normal. My grand-father would probably have reacted the same had I said "Ich möchte eine Cola" instead of "Ich möchte eine Cola haben" as a kid. But unfortunately I can't ask him any more, not in this life at least.


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