# 知道 / 晓得



## yuechu

Hello/大家好，

Is there any difference between the terms 知道 and 晓得 in Chinese? For example, are they sometimes used in different situations?
Also, is 晓得 ever considered "方言" or is it common in 普通话/国语?
Thanks!


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## BODYholic

In modem Chinese, 知道 is less formal/colloquial. 晓得/知晓 is formal.
I've no ideal in classical Chinese, if there are variants in their definitions.


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## YangMuye

晓得 sounds dialectal or old-fashioned to me.
I think 晓得 is common in southern areas.


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## Skatinginbc

baosheng said:


> Also, is 晓得 ever considered "方言" or is it common in 普通话/国语?


知道 is a common expression in Mandarin 官話 (including 普通话 and 国语), which  is largely a northern dialect.  晓得 is not common in northern dialects or  in the ancient territory of 金朝 (Jin Dynasty), but it often  shows up in famous literature such as 《朱子語類》, 《初刻拍案驚奇》, 《儒林外史》 and  other works of 南人 (southerners).  It may thus sound "learned" or  "educated" to some people (because one needs education to acquire the  uncommon form) or "old-fashioned" to others (since it is encountered  often in ancient literature and epic films).  It was a standard  colloquial expression of the Southern Song 南宋, whose territory could  conveniently serve as a rough estimate of its linguasphere.   Indeed, 晓得 prevails in 赣语、吴语、湘语、台语 and 西南官话 (including 四川官话 and 雲貴官话).  From the perspective of 官話 (Mandarin), it is "dialectal".  From the perspective of 漢語, it is "standard". 

Morphologically  speaking, 知道 (知 "know" + 道 "the way") already contains an object 道  ("the way").  Its transitive use (i.e., 知道 + object) might thus  encounter some resistance by ancient 南人.  It was, however, held as a  formal expression and frequently used in official documents by 北人.  Those that regard 知道  as "formal" and 晓得 as "colloquial" are justified in that sense.  Those that think the opposite (e.g., BODYholic in #2) are justified as well.  As I said, 知道 is the common one, frequently heard in speech.  晓得 is acquired or learned through some sort of education and hence may easily translate into a "formal" impression.


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## yuechu

Thank you everyone for your replies!

@Skatinginbc
Wow, your knowledge always impresses me. Thanks for your detailed answer!


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## fyl

To me both are colloquial. The difference is mostly regional. In 四川话 for example, people tend to use 晓得. As for formal articles (written in standard Mandarin), I will always use 知道 and 晓得 implies a dialectical sense.



Skatinginbc said:


> Its transitive use (i.e., 知道 + object) might thus  encounter some resistance by ancient 南人.


Not quite sure. I searched a little bit and found quite a few results by authors in 北宋 and 南宋
北宋 苏轼 沁园春：须知道 ?这般病染 两处心头
南宋 姜夔 月下笛：怎知道 误了人 年少自恁虚度
南宋 刘辰翁 永遇乐：谁知道 断烟禁夜 满城似愁风雨
...
In fact, 知道 was already used in Tang dynasty: 唐 杨汝士 《建节后偶作》诗：“山僧见我衣裳窄，知道新从战地来。” (zdict)


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## Skatinginbc

Indeed, 知道 has been used as a transitive verb since the Tang  Dynasty, but it remains absent in such  southern dialects as Min despite more than one thousand years of  language contact.  I checked all listings of the Taiwanese Min Language  Dictionary that contain the word 知, and I fail to see any entry that  involves double-object constructions like "知 + 道 + another object".  There is a term 知影 (meaning 知道), in which 影 is a verb meaning 看、瞭, and so it cannot be considered an example of "double objects".  Based on the findings, I therefore said, "Its transitive use (i.e., 知道 + object) might thus  encounter *some* resistance by ancient 南人."


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## leekb

You will hear 晓得/不晓得 quite frequently in Taiwanese Mandarin, thanks, as mentioned, to its use in Taiwanese S. Min.


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## Ghabi

In Cantonese we *say* 知到, although we *write* 知道 in Cantonese writing (到 dou3 and 道 dou6 are not homophones in Cantonese, as voiced initials of Middle Chinese have acquired lower tones in Cantonese). And when we read out a Modern Written Chinese text, we pronounce 知道 as 知到.

In old-fashioned or humorous Cantonese 曉 is used, but is the equivalent of Mandarin 懂, not of 知.


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## Skatinginbc

Skatinginbc said:


> 知道 (知 "know" + 道 "the way") already  contains an object 道  ("the way").  Its transitive use (i.e., 知道 +  object) might thus  encounter some resistance by ancient 南人.


I meant constructions as such: 
明 馮惟敏（山東臨朐人): 不遇着子期, 谁知道品题.
石玉崑（天津人)《三俠五義》既是兄長知道此人,小弟明日就往臥虎溝便了 (vs. 識得此人).   


Skatinginbc said:


> It was, however, held as a  formal expression and frequently used in  official documents by 北人.


I meant examples like this: 明 趙南星(河北高邑人)《復京察拾遺疏》： 俱奉欽依吏部知道事理， 謹題請旨。


fyl said:


> I searched a little bit and found quite a few results by authors in 北宋  and 南宋...In fact, 知道 was already used in Tang dynasty: 唐 杨汝士  《建节后偶作》诗：“山僧见我衣裳窄，知道新从战地来。”


Those early examples seem to be  associated with the "that-clause" type of construction.  I wonder if 道  in that kind of construction originally had a nominal function (e.g., as  a relative pronoun).  For instance, 
唐 杨汝士: 知道(know the fact that) 新从战地来(I recently came from the war zone). 
宋 苏轼: 须知道(must know the fact that) 这般病染 两处心头


Ghabi said:


> In Cantonese we *say* 知到, although we *write* 知道


The Taiwan dictionary prescribes two different readings for 知道: 1) zhi1 dao4: "to know the way/reason/law", and 2) zhi1 dao (輕聲) "to know", in which 道 is apparently treated as a particle (助词) and thus receives a reduced tone.  It appears to me that 道 (read as 到) is also treated as a particle (like 得 in 晓得, 懂得, 識得) in Cantonese.


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## YangMuye

Skatinginbc said:


> I wonder if 道  in that kind of construction originally had a nominal function (e.g., as  a relative pronoun).


Or a preposition like 云 or 曰.

Perhaps 知到 is generalized from 看/听/想到.


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## Youngfun

I don't agree with BODYholic's statement: 晓得 is formal. 
Literary/dialectal/ancient/not common don't automatically make a word formal. In fact (in modern Chinese, as you say), nobody would write 晓得 in newspaper articles or scientific texts.



Skatinginbc said:


> Indeed, 晓得 prevails in 赣语、吴语、湘语、台语 and 西南官话 (including 四川官话 and 雲貴官话).


Why specifically 台语 and not 闽南? Due to contact with other Chinese dialects spoken in Taiwan?
 And why are in writing in mixed Simplified and Traditional character?



Ghabi said:


> In Cantonese we *say* 知到, although we *write* 知道 in Cantonese writing (到 dou3 and 道 dou6 are not homophones in Cantonese, as voiced initials of Middle Chinese have acquired lower tones in Cantonese). And when we read out a Modern Written Chinese text, we pronounce 知道 as 知到.


Don't you usually say simply 知？


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## Skatinginbc

Youngfun said:


> Due to contact with other Chinese dialects spoken in Taiwan?


 曉得 has long been borrowed from other Chinese languages (e.g, 客贛語) into 閩北語 （http://books.google.ca/books?id=0Ta...ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=晓得 閩北 客赣语&f=false)  and 閩南語 (e.g., 明朝閩南語白話戲曲《荔鏡記》: 可曉得只一陣娘仔正是值街巷上人).  Phrases like "子兒曉得" are occasionally encountered in 台語歌仔戲、電視劇本.


Youngfun said:


> nobody  would write 晓得 in newspaper articles or scientific texts.


Although 曉得 was a colloquial expression in ancient times and largely remains so in modern times, it doesn't prevent people from using it in a formal context.  For instance,
《國語日報. 身心障礙學生異性交往輔導策略（95年10月22日）》: 不曉得怎麼跟異性相處 (https://www.mdnkids.com/specialeducation/detail.asp?sn=438). 
《傳播研究與統計學》: 要看看台灣一般民眾是不是已曉得「中國文字改革」    http://books.google.ca/books?id=H3K...Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q="要看看台灣一般民眾是不是已曉得"&f=false


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## Youngfun

Skatinginbc said:


> 曉得 has long been borrowed from other Chinese languages (e.g, 客贛語) into 閩北語 （http://books.google.ca/books?id=0Ta...ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=晓得 閩北 客赣语&f=false)  and 閩南語 (e.g., 明朝閩南語白話戲曲《荔鏡記》: 可曉得只一陣娘仔正是值街巷上人).  Phrases like "子兒曉得" are occasionally encountered in 台語歌仔戲、電視劇本.


OK, thanks. When you wrote 台语 i thought it was a specific use of Taiwanese Minnan, but not used in the Minnan of Mainland China.



> Although 曉得 was a colloquial expression in ancient times and largely remains so in modern times, it doesn't prevent people from using it in a formal context.  For instance,
> 《國語日報. 身心障礙學生異性交往輔導策略（95年10月22日）》: 不曉得怎麼跟異性相處 (https://www.mdnkids.com/specialeducation/detail.asp?sn=438).
> 《傳播研究與統計學》: 要看看台灣一般民眾是不是已曉得「中國文字改革」    http://books.google.ca/books?id=H3K...Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q="要看看台灣一般民眾是不是已曉得"&f=false


Thanks for the sources!


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