# or - conjonction de coordination



## mgpgirl

*Moderator note*: multiple threads merged to create this one.
We are discussing the French conjunction _"or_," not the English word "or."  
Several translations to English are suggested here in the WR dictionary.

Quelqu'un peut me dire ce qu' "Or" veut dire au début d'une phrase?


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## Agnès E.

It can mean many things.  More seriously, it is used in the beginning of a sentence to oppose this sentence to the previous one:

Il a plu hier. Or la météo annonçait du beau temps ! 
It has rained yesterday, although the weather forecast annouced a sunny day!

Tout le monde croit qu'il est gentil. Or il a agi particulièrement mal.
Everybody thinks he is a nice guy. Yet he behaved quite badly.


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## dawamli

In theorem or other logical texts, the French word "or" is very useful. For example

"Tout ce qui est rare est cher.
*Or* une maison bon marché est rare
Donc ce qui est bon marché peut-être cher"

Dictionary gives "now" but I feel it insufficiently strong


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## Danse Macabre

I'd say "but", "however".


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## dawamli

Danse Macabre said:
			
		

> I'd say "but", "however".



Its difficult to explain why, but "however" or "but" induce an idea of opposition. That's not really the case in french with "or".. I'd put "or" between "however" and "furthermore" but the two of them seems strange to me...

Geometrically, I'd present it like this :

---> (however)
<---

--->---> (furthermore)

<-- (or)...
|
V


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## charlie2

...peut-être "and yet" ?

[...]


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## zaby

I think that in the context of theorems and logical proofs 'and' can be used for '_or_'


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## geve

Yes, in a theorem "or" will most likely introduce a second statement which is not necessarily in contradiction with the first.
(in your example, you have statement 1 and statement 2, and the contradiction lies in the association of the two)


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## sanghasri

I think it is 'thus'


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## Lucius

I think it can be generally thought of as equal to "Now, with that in mind, consider that..."

It's not quite equal to "but" or "now" or "however" every time it pops up.  I think it just juxtaposes two ideas in order to produce a third.


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## catalina20002

Lisant un conte par Flaubert, j'ai trouve une phrase que commencait comme ca: "Or, l'empereur d"occitainie, ayant triomphe' des Muselmans espagnols, s'etait joint par . . . ", comme on dit "maintenant" ou "alors" ou "cependant"'. 

I did not find any such reference to the meaning of "or" on this cite or this forum, but I have also come across it in another short story.

I am assuming it is an archaic usage? For one not yet comfortable reading French, it kind of throws me. Any reassurance or explanation would be appreciated.


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## The MightyQ

I see it all the time in written french and find that "Now" works pretty well.
Now the king of occitane, having triumphed etc, ..


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## pieanne

You're right "or" is not really used in spoken language anymore...
To me, it can mean (according to context) "as it was/is", or "yet" (cependant)



The MightyQ said:


> I see it all the time in written french and find that "Now" works pretty well.
> Now the king of occitane, having triumphed etc, ..


You're right, it's quite fine too!


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## Mateo34

Hello!

I'd like to know how to translate the French coordinator "or". Maybe can it be translated by "however" but it sounds a bit strong for me.

Thanks!

Mateo

2 examples (from Wikipedia):
"Tout le monde admire Léonard dans le village. *Or* on ignore généralement qu'il est profondément dépressif."
"Tous les hommes sont mortels. *Or* Socrate est un homme. Donc, Socrate est mortel."


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## Suehil

"Tous les hommes sont mortels. *Or* Socrate est un homme. Donc, Socrate est mortel."
In a case like this the English would leave it out altogether: "All men are mortal.  Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal."


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## pieanne

I think the best translation would be "now".
(there's been a thread about it recently)


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## Talant

It's a kind of "but". A sentence that begins with "or" states an adverse condition

"Jean me propose un chien. *Or* je vis dans un appartement" - "Jean offers me a dog. But I live in a flat"


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## Ha_na

It works the same as "well", grammatically it's a conjonction and it's quite formal even literary. It's a kind of breath or break between two thoughts, two happenings.
Hope it helps.


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## hamer1970

Maybe the adverb "however" would work. I just looked in my Larousse and that looks like the closest translation I can think of. This is a similar sentence to what is in my dictionary.

On l'avait attendu; or il n'a pas pu venir au dernier moment.

We waited; however he could not come at the last minute.


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## prakam

or (conj.coord.)
Expression de la transition entre une idée et une autre
It's an expression that shows the transition between 2 ideas.


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## wildan1

It's a word that introduces a new context or broader consideration in a situation:
_However,_
_But,_
_Now,_
_On the other hand,_
... it really depends on the context


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## [Marc]

si ! whereas est très bien ! Merci


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## cropje_jnr

I would normally translate it as "even so" or "all the same".


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## kecily

Comment traduire la conjonction de coordination "or" ?

Ex, dans la phrase : 

Il faut choisir entre une céréale et une légumineuse. Or, le seigle est une céréale.


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## kanoe

Now...
Ou une forme détournée :
Or le seigle est une céréale, donc... 
--> Rye being a cereal, ....

Il faut choisir entre une céréale et une légumineuse, or le seigle est une céréale.
--> We must chose between corn and rye, and seigle is a cereal.


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## archijacq

je dirais "now"/"but"


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## coolchick

I would add that at times, 'Or' can mean 'However' as in the following...

"J'étais déçu du programme. Or, jétais heureux des amitiés que j'y ai fait."
"I was disapointed in the program. However, I was pleased with the friendships that I made there."

HTH
Cheers!


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## KenInPDX

My Larousse mini gives "but" or "now" as translations for "or" used as a conjunction.

Here's how I would translate
"Tout le monde admire Léonard dans le village. *Or* on ignore généralement qu'il est profondément dépressif."

Everyone in the village admires Léonard.  But it is not widely known that he is deeply  depressed.

In some cases, I think "or" can also be translated as "yet".  In other cases, as with the syllogism, you wouldn't translate it to anything in English.  The WR dictionary gives "although" as another alternative.  I don't think there are really any rules, unfortunately, to determine which of the possibilities is the best alternative in any particular situation.


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## DaiSmallcoal

or  = *'now'*  doesn't mean   '_at this time - this moment_'    , it's a 'pause' , to put a variation to , or to redefine,  what has just gone before


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## Salvatos

Il croyait pouvoir partir, or il a dû attendre =
He thought he could leave, *but* he had to wait.

_Mais_ would be a synonym in this case.


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## FrenchGen

Je dirais que 'or' est plus fort que 'mais'
je traduirais 'or' par : 'mais en fait' ou 'sauf que'...


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## Xavier11222

Czesc Vizz2, 
You'll find many examples in the Trésor de la Langue Française - I particularly like this definition (secondary for them, but really essential and easy to remember) of theirs for the word:


> Présente le fait qui permet de conclure ou qui explique ce qui suit.


It works for most cases - in the sentence you give, what follows is implicit (the character is disappointed/has to change plans), but that's where the sentence leads. 
Sadly, it doesn't offer any direct help for translation. And there's no English equivalent that covers all possible contexts. 
Here, I'd say "but," as per Salvatos's suggestion, unless there's more after the sentence that warrants a "now" or "however."


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## pointvirgule

If you're familiar with syllogisms, _or _is used to introduce the minor premise:

Major:_ La nuit, tous les chats sont gris._
Minor: _Or, tous les siamois sont des chats._
Conclusion: _La nuit, tous les siamois sont gris._

_La police recherche un individu de type caucasien. Or, X est Noir ; ça ne peut donc pas être lui.__

Tout le monde me dit d'arrêter de fumer ; or, j'en suis incapable, alors qu'on me laisse tranquille.

Cette entreprise a besoin d'employés qui ont beaucoup d'expérience. Or, je travaille dans le domaine depuis vingt-cinq ans : je suis donc un bon candidat.

De l'argenterie en or ? C'est absurde, car l'argent est de couleur argent. Or, l'or est de couleur or. 

_


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## Chimel

vizz2 said:


> I found my old book of French grammar and there we can read: "Elle cultivait de belles roses dans son jardin. Or, une nuit, on lui en a vole quelques-unes, les plus belles." And it is translated (into Polish, but the sense is the same!): "She was gardening beautiful roses in her garden. *And so (!!!)*, one night, some of the most beautiful ones were stolen".


Basically, there are two main uses of _or:_

1) The one you mention here is a *temporal* one. It is used in a narration to enhance a fact and is close to _then_, _now..._ (not quite with the same nuance, but OK)
You also find it in Maupassant's quote given by Mgarizona:
_« Elle pleurait pendant des jours entiers [...] Or, un soir, son mari rentra, l'air glorieux »_ (Maupassant). 

Actually, in both examples, you could easily suppress the _or_ (and so, not translate it) without losing any meaning. The _or_ just stresses the opposition between the description before (elle cultivait, elle pleurait...) and the action that follows (on lui vole, son mari rentra...), as to "wake up the reader". You'll also often find in fairy tales:
"La princesse était très malheureuse et rêvait à cet inconnu qu'elle avait vu [+ long description of her sad life]. *Or, un beau jour*, un homme arriva...": children may have fallen asleep with the long description, with "or un beau jour" you draw their attention again (= now, at this point I'll tell you someting important).

This is mainly written and literary French, so the point for you is just to understand it (except if you want to write a novel in French... )

2) The other one has a *logical* function in a thought process and is also spoken French. And here, we can make another little distinction:

- _or_ can be used to introduce the minor premise of a syllogism (PointVirgule). See the example of the police and the Black man. According to Mgarizona, you wouldn't translate it in this case.
But this use is still rather formal as you don't often use syllogisms as you speak in daily life, do you? 

- so in real spoken French, I think we mainly use _or_ in cases like this:
"Il est très fâché contre moi. Or je ne lui ai jamais parlé."
And in this case, the meaning is very close to _yet_ or, sometimes, to _in fact_.


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## quinoa

The question is more how relevant it is than how frequent?


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## Oddmania

Hi,

I do think it's similar to _et _(although you can't really use _et _at the beginning of a sentence). It's used to link the two premises of a syllogism. In the well-known syllogism _"A__ll men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore, Socrates is mortal"_, the first two sentences are usually linked by _or_ in French.

_La place de cinéma coûte 12 euros. Or, je n'ai que 8 euros sur moi_ (implicit conclusion: "Therefore, I won't have enough money").
_Nicolas m'a offert des roses. Or, j'adore les roses. _(implicit conclusion: "Therefore, I'm thrilled").

It's quite a formal word, though. It's usually used in complex demonstrations, leading to a not-so-obvious conclusion.

In your first example, _or _amounts to _en l’occurrence_ ("as it turns out"), and in your second example, it's more like _however_. It's a very vague word that reporters use very, very often to mean *anything*:_ and, however, now, as it turns out_, etc.


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## iRoy

Merci beaucoup pour votre réponse.

Je vais l'utiliser alors pour dire ''therefore'' et si je le vois écrit sur un site ou dans un article, je sais maintenant qu'il peut signifier pleines de choses.
Puis-je donc conclure que sa vraie définition est celle de ''therefore, pour cela'' mais que la plupart des Français l'utilisent pour dire pleines de choses...?
Finalement, ce mot se trouve-t-il toujours en début de la phrase et est-il toujours suivi d'une virgule ? 

Merci


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## Oddmania

iRoy said:


> Je vais l'utiliser alors pour dire ''therefore'' et si je le vois écrit sur un site ou dans un article, je sais maintenant qu'il peut signifier pleines de choses.
> Puis-je donc conclure que sa vraie définition est celle de ''therefore, pour cela'' mais que la plupart des Français l'utilisent pour dire pleines de choses...?



No, this is not what I meant! It's clearly different from _therefore _("par conséquent" in French).

_"A__ll men are mortal. Socrates is a man. Therefore, Socrates is mortal" _→_ "Les hommes sont mortels__. *Or,* Socrates est un homme. Par conséquent, Socrates est mortel".

_The meaning of _or _is usually_ and _(if the two sentences converge) or _however_ (if they diverge), or _as it turns out.
_


iRoy said:


> Finalement, ce mot se trouve-t-il toujours en début de la phrase et est-il toujours suivi d'une virgule ?



Yes, or right after a *semicolon* ( ... *;* or, ...)


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## MarcAnt

mgpgirl said:


> Quelqu'un peut me dire ce qu' "Or" veut dire au début d'une phrase?


Je pense que Or, signifie principalement While, ou In the meanwhile (c'est à dire cependant)

Even better : coincidentally


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## malseine

Je pense que, souvent, la conjonction "Or" en début de phrase peut être traduite par "Yet".
En français: généralement sans virgule (sauf intonation particulière).
En anglais: plutôt sans virgule, sauf erreur.
> Or il n'est pas venu.
> Yet he did not come.


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## sylvainremy

MarcAnt said:


> Je pense que Or, signifie principalement While, ou In the meanwhile (c'est à dire cependant)
> 
> Even better : coincidentally


I like this for certain cases. _Incidentally_ may also work in some cases, although, unlike _or_, it tends to indicate an idea that is secondary relative to the preceding, primary one.


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