# Dabei muß sein Vertrauen erstaunen



## sedmont

*In English we have a use of "must" that means something like "probably":

"I haven't asked about you. You must think me rude." 
"He is not here. He must have gone to the park."
"You have not eaten. You must be hungry."

Is müssen ever used that way in German?

For example, is that how it is used here?:*

Offensichtlich hatte Hans keinerlei Berührungsängste gegenüber Linkssozialisten, sofern sie bereit waren, auf den Boden der neuen Idee mitzuarbeiten. Dabei *muß* sein Vertrauen in die Wandlungskraft menschlicher Begegnung *erstaunen* -- ging er doch davon aus, daß Menschen unterschiedlichster sozialer und politischer Herkunft einen Weg produktiver Zusammenarbeit finden könnten.

_Apparently Hans had no reservations toward left socialists provided they were ready to collaborate on the basis of the new idea. Thus his confidence in human contact’s power of transformation *must surprise/is probably surprising* – but he proceeded from the view that people of the most varied social and political backgrounds could find a way to productively collaborate. 
_
*Thanks for any help.*


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## anahiseri

You mustn't  use *probably *here. The "muss" is just added for emphasis. I'd say
*It is surprising*
Important: the * doch *is not "but" but *as ! !
*


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## anahiseri

Maybe you could add *certainly*


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## Kajjo

sedmont said:


> "I haven't asked about you. You must think me rude."
> "He is not here. He must have gone to the park."
> "You have not eaten. You must be hungry.


All three sentences work in German the same way:

_Du musst mich ja für unhöflich halten.
Er muss in den Park gegangen sein. <very idiomatic>
Du musst hungrig sein. <very idiomatic>



sedmont said:



Dabei *muß* sein Vertrauen in die Wandlungskraft menschlicher Begegnung *erstaunen*

Click to expand...

_Yes.

But don't add a "probably": _The confidence must suprise..._


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## sedmont

anahiseri said:


> You mustn't  use *probably *here. The "muss" is just added for emphasis. I'd say
> *It is surprising*
> Important: the * doch *is not "but" but *as ! !*


Thanks anahiseri! 

I find few things harder to understand than "doch".  Getting the meaning seems to depend sometimes more on a native feeling for the language than on reliable rules.

If doch in this sentence means "as", I guess it should just be left out of the English version, no?  (Here, "as" surely does not mean "because"?)

Does this work?

_Thus his confidence in human contact’s power of transformation *is certainly surprising*. He proceeded from the view that people of the most varied social and political backgrounds could find a way to productively collaborate. 

Dabei *muß* sein Vertrauen in die Wandlungskraft menschlicher Begegnung *erstaunen* -- ging er doch davon aus, daß Menschen unterschiedlichster sozialer und politischer Herkunft einen Weg produktiver Zusammenarbeit finden könnten.
_


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## sedmont

Kajjo said:


> All three sentences work in German the same way...
> 
> But don't add a "probably": _The confidence must suprise..._


Thank you, Kajjo!


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## anahiseri

*They*


sedmont said:


> Thanks anahiseri!
> 
> I find few things harder to understand than "doch".  Getting the meaning seems to depend sometimes more on a native feeling for the language than on reliable rules.
> 
> If doch in this sentence means "as", I guess it should just be left out of the English version, no?  (Here, "as" surely does not mean "because"?)
> 
> Does this work?
> 
> _Thus his confidence in human contact’s power of transformation *is certainly surprising*. He proceeded from the view that people of the most varied social and political backgrounds could find a way to productively collaborate.
> 
> Dabei *muß* sein Vertrauen in die Wandlungskraft menschlicher Begegnung *erstaunen* -- ging er doch davon aus, daß Menschen unterschiedlichster sozialer und politics her Herkunft einen Weg produktiver Zusammenarbeit finden könnten._


Sorry, Sedmont, whether you like it or understand it or not, in this case * doch
is similar to because. You can say*
as, given that, considering that,


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## sedmont

Hi anahiseri,
When I asked, "Here, 'as' surely does not mean 'because,'?" I was not trying to resist you or being recalcitrant. That is a misunderstanding. Something very different was going on there. I thought I was probably being an idiot to ask if you meant "as" in the sense of "because." I thought I was being an idiot, because it seemed obvious that you meant "as" in some _other _sense. But the only other sense I imagined I could detect seemed to be something that did not change the meaning of the sentence very much. That is why I asked "can it be left out?"  I would not have asked "can it be left out?" if I thought you meant "as" in the sense of "because," since leaving something like that out would radically alter the original meaning of the German sentence. I thought that when your next post (#7) appeared, it might say, "no of course I did not mean "as" in the sense of "because", I meant it in the following sense:..." But then you wrote back in a way that gave me the impression you thought I was being stubborn, when in fact I was totally surprised to find that I simply had totally misunderstood you, (as I believe you did me).  My posts above had nothing to do with recalcitrance. I don't know if what I'm trying to say here makes sense to you. To explain these kinds of misunderstandings is very long and not very efficient through the medium of posting. Oh well. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

*On to the substance.*

I now understand that you are saying doch is to be translated as "as" in the sense of "because" or the like. But I do not understand the logic of the sentence. Am I putting "as/because" in the wrong place?

_Apparently Hans had no reservations toward left socialists provided they were ready to collaborate on the basis of the new idea. Thus his confidence in human contact’s power of transformation *is certainly surprising -- as/because *he proceeded from the view that people of the most varied social and political backgrounds could find a way to productively collaborate. 
_
Do you see how the insertion of "as/because" where I have it in the English sentence might be thought to make the sentence nonsensical?
_
Offensichtlich hatte Hans keinerlei Berührungsängste gegenüber Linkssozialisten, sofern sie bereit waren, auf den Boden der neuen Idee mitzuarbeiten. Dabei *muß* sein Vertrauen in die Wandlungskraft menschlicher Begegnung *erstaunen* -- ging er *doch* davon aus, daß Menschen unterschiedlichster sozialer und politischer Herkunft einen Weg produktiver Zusammenarbeit finden könnten._


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## anahiseri

I'm sorry you felt the need to apologize so extensively. Excuse me if I have offended you. I can understand your difficulties and am thinking about how to explain it. It may take some time. Please be patient


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## anahiseri

First attempt:  *doch *is related to
*sein* *Vertrauen*, not to
*erstaunen*


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## anahiseri

Second attempt:
_Er gab die Hoffnung auf, *hatte er doch* seit einer Woche keine Nachricht erhalten_
_(From a thread two years ago)
How do you feel about this sentence?
_


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## anahiseri

Going over the text again, I think you don't need to translate this difficult word. It's OK in your message #5


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## JClaudeK

anahiseri said:


> whether you like it or understand it or not, in this case * doch*
> is similar to [....]  as, *given that, considering that*,


and "(especially) since"

I agree.
_Dabei muß sein Vertrauen [ .... ] erstaunen, -- ging er doch davon aus,_  => *da* er *ja*  / *zumal* er   davon ausging, dass ...


anahiseri said:


> Going over the text again, I think you don't need to translate this difficult word.


I think that you shouldn't leave it out.


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## bearded

Hello
Among the meanings of the adjective 'erstaunlich ' I find also 'remarkable'.  Can it be that the correct translation of  ''muss erstaunen'' is not _is really surprising, _but rather _is really remarkable/considerable/admirable_? If it's not far-fetched, then

_..his confidence ....must appear admirable, since he proceeded from the view...
_
would not sound contradictory any more.
I'm thinking of phrases like _er ist erstaunlich großzügig, _which can mean both 'he is surprisingly generous' or 'he is admirably generous' (erstaunen = bewundern, in certain cases). See also Duden: _erstaunlich = Staunen (und Bewunderung) erregend. __Duden | erstaunlich | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme_ and also _staunenswert = so, dass man es bewundern muss. Duden | staunenswert | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme._


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## anahiseri

bearded said:


> Hello
> Among the meanings of the adjective 'erstaunlich ' I find also 'remarkable'.  Can it be that the correct translation of that ''muss erstaunen'' is not _is really surprising, _but rather _is really remarkable/considerable/admirable_? If it's not far-fetched, then
> 
> _..his confidence ....must appear admirable, since he proceeded from the view...
> _
> would not sound contradictory any more.
> I'm thinking of phrases like _er ist erstaunlich großzügig, _which can mean both 'he is surprisingly generous' or 'he is admirably generous' (erstaunen = bewundern, in certain cases). See also Duden: _erstaunlich = Staunen (und Bewunderung) erregend. __Duden | erstaunlich | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme_ and also _staunenswert = so, dass man es bewundern muss. Duden | staunenswert | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme._



  That's a very good point, congratulations!
I'm sure this will help the people who see a contradiction in the text with "surprising" and the correctly translated *doch*


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## sedmont

Anahiseri,
Sorry to write such a long preamble in the previous post. Thanks for your patience and all the excellent help you always give.

JClaudeK, I'm glad you encouraged Anahiseri to stick to "doch" -- I never objected to it, I was just trying to understand how the word was functioning.

I'm glad if German speakers at this forum insist on their views, down to details, and I hope they will also trust that if I ask questions, it is not that I am stubbornly presuming to disagree with a native speaker of German, it is because there is something I do not understand and am trying to understand.
________________________

bearded, thank you for pointing to a possibility that gets rid of the apparent contradiction in the English version of the sentence: "surprising" does not mean here that one would have expected the _opposite _of the surprising thing. "Surprising" here means something like "impressive" or "_more_ than one would expect" or "remarkably strong".

I do notice "admirable", "marvelous" and "stupendous" among the meanings of erstaunlich in a couple of dictionaries.

So, as a substitute for *certainly surprising,* are any of the following alternatives accurate?

*A) *_Apparently Hans had no reservations toward left socialists provided they were ready to collaborate on the basis of the new idea. Thus his confidence in human contact’s power of transformation *cannot but impress -- as/certainly impresses -- as *he proceeded from the view that people of the most varied social and political backgrounds could find a way to productively collaborate. 
_
*B)*_ Apparently Hans had no reservations toward left socialists provided they were ready to collaborate on the basis of the new idea. Thus his confidence in human contact’s power of transformation is *certainly  remarkably strong -- as *he proceeded from the view that people of the most varied social and political backgrounds could find a way to productively collaborate. _

*C) *_Apparently Hans had no reservations toward left socialists provided they were ready to collaborate on the basis of the new idea. Thus his confidence in human contact’s power of transformation *must appear admirable -- as/is really admirable -- as *he proceeded from the view that people of the most varied social and political backgrounds could find a way to productively collaborate. 
_
_Offensichtlich hatte Hans keinerlei Berührungsängste gegenüber Linkssozialisten, sofern sie bereit waren, auf den Boden der neuen Idee mitzuarbeiten. Dabei *muß* sein Vertrauen in die Wandlungskraft menschlicher Begegnung *erstaunen* -- ging er doch davon aus, daß Menschen unterschiedlichster sozialer und politischer Herkunft einen Weg produktiver Zusammenarbeit finden könnten._


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## anahiseri

Help with this use of *doch*:
Slightly paraphrased translation with bearded's suggestion
We have to consider his confidence . . . remarkable, as he (went as far as) believing / he believed that people from . . . 

Just to make you see there is no contradiction or contrast between the two clauses


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## anahiseri

I think *davon ausgehen *can be simply translated by
Think, believe, feel, hold the view, be persuaded etc.


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## JClaudeK

sedmont said:


> bearded, thank you for pointing to a possibility (do native German speakers agree with the possibility?


Yes, I do.


> erstaunlich
> beeindruckend (Hauptform)  ·  Beachtung verdienen(d)  ·  bemerkenswert


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## sedmont

Thanks very much to all. Everything is clear now.


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## anahiseri

sedmont said:


> Thanks very much to all. Everything is clear now.


I can't believe it!   We made it!


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## bearded

anahiseri said:


> congratulations!


Thank you very much.
I like your proposal in #17.


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## sedmont

anahiseri said:


> I can't believe it!   We made it!


Thanks again for the patience and the excellent suggestions.


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