# だい & かい



## kyn

Hi,
In the book "A dictionary of basic Japanese grammar", there's an entry about "だい" and "かい", which are ending words in male informal speech. But I was wondering if I can use these words all the time (in informal conversation, of course)? Or is there a limit to the use of these 2 words? And what's their level of politeness?

Which is more common in male informal speech (let's say, a conversation 
with a friend of the same age), of the followings:
- どこへ行ってる。
- どこへ行ってるんだい。
- どこへ行っているの。
- どこへ行っているか。
- どこへ行っているんだか。


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## Aoyama

First of all, all these sentences should better end with a question mark :
1- どこへ行ってる ?
2- どこへ行ってるんだい ?
3- どこへ行っているの ?
4- どこへ行っているか ?
5- どこへ行っているんだか ?
All these expressions (_where are you going to ?_) are all colloquial. Trying to establish a hierarchy in the level of politeness may prove difficult.
A try : 1,3,4,2,5. 5 being the "less polite".
I guess 4 could/should also be :どこへ行っているかい ?
As well as 5 being :どこへ行っているんだかい  ?


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## kyn

Thanks.
But is it all right to use "だい" and "かい" all the time in a conversation?


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## Aoyama

Not really in a daily conversation, because the level of language is particular.
You should also remember that using these endings requires a good knowledge of Japanese.


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## kyn

So what sentence structure (ending words, I mean) should I use to talk with friends? I don't want it to sound formal by using "masu" or "desu".


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## Captain Haddock

Just start by using the plain forms. It's hard to go wrong there. The odd "desu" doesn't hurt either.


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## Aoyama

> Just start by using the plain forms. It's hard to go wrong there. The odd (old ?) "desu" doesn't hurt either.


That is very true


> I don't want it to sound formal by using "masu" or "desu".


You won't. But using the phrases above will surely sound funny, unless you can "back it/them up" with a colloquial Japanese that will fit ...


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## kyn

What do you mean they're "funny'"? Or is it only funny if said by a foreigner?


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## Captain Haddock

Aoyama said:


> Just start by using the plain forms. It's hard to go wrong there. The odd (old ?) "desu" doesn't hurt either.
> 
> 
> 
> That is very true
Click to expand...


odd = infrequent, occasional


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## Aoyama

> odd = infrequent, occasional


Right, though I would think that "desu" is not really _that odd_ but rather quite frequent and in fact close to being the norm , at least for non-native speakers/users of Japanese.


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## Aoyama

> What do you mean they're "funny'"? Or is it only funny if said by a foreigner?


Funny here means _unexpected_ from someone whose level in Japanese may not allow him to use so to speak unusual figures of speech.
The key idea here is : be simple to make yourself understood.


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## Flaminius

Some comments for the nuances that your sentences have.





kyn said:


> Which is more common in male informal speech (let's say, a conversation
> with a friend of the same age), of the followings:
> - どこへ行ってる。  Somewhat accusatory when uttered with a flat intonation.
> - どこへ行ってるんだい。  Friendly but somewhat condescending.
> - どこへ行っているの。  Most general.
> - どこへ行っているか。  Formal and accusatory.
> - どこへ行っているんだか。 Sarcastic.


だい or かい, when used in the right context, can express friendliness, care or genuine curiosity.  However, they can be easily taken to mean patronising attitude, condescension or sarcasm.  I find the option with の most versatile for both male and female casual speech.


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## Captain Haddock

Aoyama said:


> That is very true
> 
> You won't. But using the phrases above will surely sound funny, unless you can "back it/them up" with a colloquial Japanese that will fit ...





Aoyama said:


> Right, though I would think that "desu" is not really _that odd_ but rather quite frequent and in fact close to being the norm , at least for non-native speakers/users of Japanese.



All I meant was that you can use the odd (occasional) desu without sounding overly polite or formal.  If you use it all the time, you're in _teinei_ territory.

Edit: I gather you're confused because you think I meant the general use of "desu" is infrequent, but that's not what the expression "the odd ~" means in English.


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## cheshire

Hi kyn, of course there's no rule you can't use だい or かい too many in conversation, but as are all words irrespective of lanugages, too much appearance of certain words or phrases makes your speech look strange. 

If you compose a skit of Japanese sentences using たい or かい, we're happy to tell if it's strange, and give you advice on how you should correct it.


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