# What’s it like to be a newbie here?



## fenixpollo

What is/was it like to be a new member of the wordreference.com forums?   Share your input however you like, or address any of my follow-up questions:
When did you feel like you understood the organization of the forum and how things work around here? After 30 posts? After 100? 1000?
When did you feel comfortable/familiar with the rules? 
When did you feel like you had a handle on the culture of the place?

I’d like to find out ways that we can improve the newbie experience, and I’d like your input.  We are concerned about individuals, both mods and foreros, and we are looking for your input regarding *general practices in the forum*, *not to specific actions* of either foreros or mods. Please address specific situations or behaviors privately, via private message with moderator(s) or by reporting the post in question by using the little red triangle.


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## TrentinaNE

I think you pick up the "culture" of a forum by reading, not posting. I joined WRF on Sept. 13, 2005 and it looks as though my first post occurred on that day, by asking a clarifying question in an existing thread (# 7). So apparently I'd figured out from the get-go that I should see whether my question already had an answer before opening a new thread. 

I can't remember for sure, but I suspect that occurred because of reading the forum for a few days before actually joining and because I had previous experience with fairly "strict" forums. People who come here from "anything goes"-type chatboards are likely to experience some adjustment issues.

Elisabetta


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## romarsan

WR fue el primer foro en el que participé, así pues, mi ignoracia sobre el funcionamiento o los recursos que podía ofrecer el foro era absoluta. Digo esto porque, aquéllos foreros que hayan participado en otros foros antes de entrar en este, quizá habrán vivido su viaje a través del foro de forma diferente a la mia.

Creo que todo requiere su tiempo y, conocer todo lo que el foro puede ofrecer y cuales son sus limitaciones es un recorrido que necesita tiempo.

En cuanto a las normas, me las leí antes de escribir mi primer post, a nivel general capté cuales eran las reglas del juego, aunque muchas de ellas las fui aprendiendo con meteduras de pata.

Tuve la suerte de encontrar gente amable durante mis primeros posts, supongo que, lo que más puede incomodar o hacer sentir mal a un newbie y, más aún a un newbie total, al que no se ha movido antes por ningún otro foro, es que se le recuerde que es un newbie o que no se le trate de forma amable. Te hace sentir muy bien que, desde el primer momento, te traten como un miembro de pleno derecho del foro, tengas uno o diez mil posts.

Las normas, a veces me parecen excesivamente estrictas, pero reconozco que son necesarias y que hay que respetarlas para poder convivir.

No sabría decir cuantos posts llevaba cuando comencé a usar el triangulo rojo para reportar un post que considero que puede estar en un foro equivocado o por cualquier otra razón, pero seguro que llevaba más de 1.000 posts. Comencé a sentirme cómoda en el foro pronto, quizá con 100 posts ya me sentía miembro de WR, pero me costó muchos más posts conocer las reglas.

Saludos


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## Cabeza tuna

fenixpollo said:


> What is/was it like to be a new member of the wordreference.com forums?   Share your input however you like, or address any of my follow-up questions:
> When did you feel like you understood the organization of the forum and how things work around here? After 30 posts? After 100? 1000?
> After like 30...
> When did you feel comfortable/familiar with the rules?
> After a 100 I have some problems at the beginning
> When did you feel like you had a handle on the culture of the place?
> When I reach the 1K post


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## TrentinaNE

Cabeza, you might want to edit your post to make your answers a different color.  Otherwise, it just looks as though you've quoted an earlier post without adding any new content.  

Elisabetta


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## Tampiqueña

Sentí que comprendía cómo funcionaban las cosas por aquí más o menos después de tener 100 posts.
Leí las reglas en el momento de registrarme y me parecieron muy razonables aunque tardé un poco en recordar casi todas (todavía me equivoco en ocasiones).
Me sentí realmente cómoda en WR después de llegar a 1,000 posts. Al principio tuve algunas experiencias que me hicieron sentir como una extraña tocando la puerta de una sociedad cerrada pero aprendí a diferenciar entre las miles de personas que cumplen con la finalidad del foro y ofrecen ayuda desinteresadamente y las pocas que no son representativas de la buena voluntad reinante, es decir, que son casos aislados y no afectan mi perspectiva de este gran lugar.


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## Nunty

What a great question!

My first threads were in the French-English forum. I was astonished by how friendly and pleasant everyone was and how quickly useful replies poured in. I posted a thank you. 

But the replies kept coming! I started to feel very overwhelmed, as though the thread replies were somehow obliging me to do something, as though they were creating a burden. I remember this very clearly. I found the list of forum moderators at the bottom of the index page and sent a PM to one, asking her to make them stop!  She replied, explaining more about how the forums worked, and I relaxed.

It was a very good experience and, as you can see, I decided to stick around.


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## Víctor Pérez

fenixpollo said:


> I’d like to find out ways that we can improve the newbie experience, and I’d like your input.  We are concerned about individuals, both mods and foreros, and we are looking for your input regarding *general practices in the forum*, *not to specific actions* of either foreros or mods.




 Even if I’m convinced that the management of WR is very important (administration and moderation), I think that the success of the forums is due to the *questions *the newbies ask and to the *answers *they receive. It sounds simple but, in my opinion, that’s the core of the question. 
It means that everybody –moderators and members- has to treat the newbies with *kindness*, *warmth *and *patience*. Depending of the feeling they would get at their first questions, newbies might come back or not with other questions.

In the other hand, as some newbies don’t read the rules since the beginning (we have to be realistic: if they don’t do it at the beginning they wouldn’t do it later) and as many answers can be found in any dictionary, mods have to remind to them since their first post that before to ask they have to look for the answer in dictionaries or in previous threads, by a simple standard watchword as, for instance, this one:



> You can easily find an answer to your question in WR dictionaries or in previous threads.
> 
> If you don’t find the answer you expect, please come back here with your doubts.​


 In my opinion, this message, when needed, has to be sent straight away by the moderators and I would even say the thread should be closed but visible for a while. Mainly, the success of WR has to come from the *good level *of the questions and the answers. Not only from their number.



To any mod: please feel free to correct directely in the text my mistakes. Thanks .


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## Valeria Mesalina

> Originally Posted by *fenixpollo*
> What is/was it like to be a new member of the wordreference.com forums?


I was lost. I didn´t realize at first there were so many different forums. In fact I hadn´t even realized WR was a forum (or a collection of forums). I used the dictionary and that was all. One day I followed a thread in the dictionay and here I am.
I remember one forero who sent me a collection of very nasty PMS when I accidentally duplicated a thread. That was nasty. 




> When did you feel like you understood the organization of the forum and how things work around here? After 30 posts? After 100? 1000?


I haven´t understood it yet.



> When did you feel comfortable/familiar with the rules?


I read the rules before joining in. My understanding of them is my understanding of them. They may mean something else for someone else. Native language... oh, well.



> When did you feel like you had a handle on the culture of the place?


Maybe when I reach 10.000 posts.


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## TimLA

What a nice question!

Many moons ago, I found the Italian-English forum through Google - and I thought that it was the only one that existed (and I'm a computer-nerd!) -
I didn't "back-out" to look at the 30,000 foot view until someone sent me over to the "thanks" forums
where a series of kind-hearted folk were thanking me for 1,000 posts...duh...doh!

Newbies are a special interest of mine, not only because my first post was deleted eek:), but because I think they should be treated "gently" -
because they are new, and they may bring tremendous expertise to a forum or forums. Occasionally, they need prodding
"How about if you look over here..." "Maybe like this next time..." "Did you check this out..." "Here's an interesting post that might help...", etc.




fenixpollo said:


> What is/was it like to be a new member of the wordreference.com forums?
> It can be intimidating - not only from a language perspective, but a technology perspective:
> Different forums, Choosing the right forum, What's context? Attachments, No links to YouTube, Banned?
> Friends list, Ignore list, What's a PM? No audio links (on a language forum!?), "Four lines" of copyright, Length of proofreading,
> Learn to search (1.273 million threads as of this posting), Who's a moderator? What's a moderator? Why can't we start a Ukranian-Etruscan forum?
> Why is this person answering me in Italian when my question was in English? Variability between forums, Congrats pages,
> Comments and Suggestions, Dictionary problems, Dictionary comments and suggestions, Thanks but no Thanks, Red Triangle?
> What's culture? Thinking "I hope I don't say anything offensive", Why not a word of "Spanish" on the X forum...it might help...?
> ..and on and on.
> 
> Share your input however you like, or address any of my follow-up questions:
> When did you feel like you understood the organization of the forum and how things work around here? After 30 posts? After 100? 1000?
> Perhaps by 100-300 posts, but perhaps not even then. I'm sure there are links that I haven't seen yet.
> 
> When did you feel comfortable/familiar with the rules?
> Rules? What rules? I'm a guy...I don't read instructions or rules...
> They change, but I think if we keep our "Eye on the Prize" - "Helping others learn a Language" perhaps rules might be a little less important.
> 
> When did you feel like you had a handle on the culture of the place?
> Perhaps 1,000 posts...
> But the culture is constantly changing, new newbies, new mods, new rules, new ways of approaching problems.
> You just need to keep on the forums, watching different people, seeing how others post/ask/answer/deal with personality issues/...
> 
> I’d like to find out ways that we can improve the newbie experience, and I’d like your input. We are concerned about individuals, both mods and foreros, and we are looking for your input regarding *general practices in the forum*, *not to specific actions* of either foreros or mods. Please address specific situations or behaviors privately, via private message with moderator(s) or by reporting the post in question by using the little red triangle.


 
General ideas:
1. Welcome everyone
2. Subtle hints at "rules"
3. Lots of communication
4. "Tuve la suerte de encontrar gente amable durante mis primeros posts..." (from Romarsan).
5. Foreros (Mods included) need to remember what it was like to learn that second language.
___What were the problems that you had?
___How would you have liked to have them explained to you?
___Can you do the same with a newbie?
___Does the newbie learn by example? or by grammar?
...walk a mile in their shoes...


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## Loob

I was all over the place as a newbie - losing threads, contravening rules on answering multiple choice questions, re-writing people's homework... 

I think that Mike and the mods have made a number of improvements in the last couple of years: the rules, in particular, are now decidedly tighter, shorter and clearer.

Looking back, I wish someone had pointed me on Day 1 to the excellent C&S thread on "how to do almost anything with WRF". I remember stumbling across it, then not being able to find it again for ages

I can't say when I started to feel 'at home' here: it wasn't post-number related. But I do think I only started to "get" the forums when I realised (through reading C&S threads) that they are an adjunct to the dictionaries. I'm still learning, of course - I had something of a Eureka moment not long ago when I finally understood why it's better to report contextless threads rather than respond to them by asking for context [it's - at least in part - because the forums are an adjunct to the dictionaries...]

I suggested in another C&S thread that it would be nice for newbies to receive an automatic "newbies start here" message; this might provide a link to the "how to do things" sticky, as well as explaining the 'adjunct to the dictionary' point, the fact that there are rules for individual forums as well as WRF rules, and - even - the fact that WRF is 'a forum of forums'. Not all of this would be needed by seasoned users of other boards, but it would - I think - be very helpful to "naïve" newcomers like I was 

Oh, and I agree on the importance of *kindness, warmth and patience. *I was very fortunate: my numerous idiocies were (and still are!) treated with all three. But I have shivered on occasion when I've seen innocent mistakes receive brusque reponses. I do think it's vital that we remember how bewildering the forums can seem at first, and how easy it is for newbies to transgress...


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## tomzenith

I completely missed the point when I first posted on the forum. I had only just started learning Italian (my only other language) a couple of weeks before and I just wanted to know the meaning of a ludicrously basic sentence. I wrote my question, got my answer, and left. It wasn't until a couple of months ago I came back to ask another question that I realised quite what I was dealing with.. Once I started searching for answers to other questions in existing threads, I realised the sheer quantity of stuff on here, and so much of it was so well explained that it helped me understand things that textbooks had left me puzzled on.

The only (little) criticism that I have is that perhaps too much stress is placed for the newcomers on *what *the rules are, and not enough on *why*. None of the rules are arbitrary, and all of them are intended to help build something that is really very impressive - I think if people got a sense earlier on of what this site is meant to be and how good it is, they would be more keen to follow the rules and stick around to join in the fun..


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## danielfranco

I first joined because in my line of work as a medical interpreter we come across many words difficult to translate, and the dictionaries only take you so far. You need real people interaction to get the deeper meaning of some words and phrases.

But after getting a couple of answers, I got hooked by the intoxicating interaction, and also by what I am sure is the most common downfall of all n00bs: I started being rather cheeky with my answers, thinking I was being either funny or witty.

Rather to my surprise and—in those n00b days, chagrin—senior members and mods alike were quick to point out that we don't come to this forums to be cheeky, but to contribute.

Sure, like many others, I didn't even spend the time it took me to click on "Accept" to take a look at the rules, so most of them have caught me by surprise many times.

Now, after sixty-five hundred posts, I think I start feeling more a part of these forums, and comfortable with the rules. I believe I can finally stop feeling like a n00b.

D


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## Robert_Hope

I'm still not sure I understand everything. Rules are open to interpretation.

Joining wordreference is a bit like moving countries. Whilst you can read up on the "do's" and "don'ts" before you join, you physically can't remember everything - and what you need is a friend/kind person to give you a little nudge in the right direction - rather than just loads of police ready to throw you in jail and shout at you via the PM system...

Since then, I've noticed more tolerance towards newbies in the open forums (fora?) but I suspect a lot of ranting goes on via the PM system in which some moderators may just show their almighty power of deletion and saractic abilities rather than simply saying "poor little newbie, who is lost and confused, here are the laws of the land, let me guide you."
What is important for us all to remember, is that the rules in some forums might not be in the mother tongue on the newbie and thus they might not actually be able to read them!

That's how I felt when I joined. I try to be a good boy now, by posting lots of lovely context, searching for threads that already exist and ultimately staying on-topic.  I have also learned that the moderators give a lot of time to their posts (no pun intended... well, not much anyway) and, apparently don't get paid (depsite this being a business as Mike reminds us in another "sticky"). I've wondered sometimes why people take on such a role, if they haven't the patience with newbies..


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## TrentinaNE

Robert_Hope said:


> Rules are open to interpretation.


This is certainly true, but in order to interpret rules, one has to first read them. It's woefully obvious that many new posters don't bother to do so, even though upon registration they must check a box that explicitly confirms that they *have* read the rules.

Things have changed since I subscribed about 3 and 1/2 years ago, so I logged out and looked at what one encounters upon registering today. The screen that requires reading and accepting the rules can be made to appear in several languages, including Spanish. (You won't see that screen unless you are logged out.) However, I noticed that it is not terribly obvious how you change the language from English. That option appears below the text box -- maybe it could be moved above and be labeled "Language" rather than "Default Style". In addition, for some of the languages selected (like Italian) the rules stay in English. 

Elisabetta


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## Robert_Hope

TrentinaNE said:


> This is certainly true, but in order to interpret rules, one has to first read them. It's woefully obvious that many new posters don't bother to do so, even though upon registration they must check a box that explicitly confirms that they *have* read the rules.


 
That is also agreed. But for speakers of other languages (not covered in the website translations, forum stickies etc)  could still find it difficult to interpet the rules. We can't force people to read and remember every rule!


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## TrentinaNE

In my experience, Robert, there are plenty of violators who know English damned well but just can't be bothered. How many first-time posts are requests to translate words that appear in the WR dictionaries? Or are titled "Need help right away plzzzzzzz!!!!"? These are, in my opinion, egregious violations of the rules and of basic common sense and politeness (which is what most of the rules boil down to). 

But I fear I'm getting a bit OT here. I've already described my "newbie" experience in Post #2. As a seasoned member (and former moderator), I try to welcome and gently steer new participants who seem a bit lost. I have little patience, however, when I encounter posts like those described above -- I click the red triangle and then stay the heck away! 

Elisabetta


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## fenixpollo

TrentinaNE said:


> These are, in my opinion, egregious violations of the rules and of basic common sense and politeness (which is what most of the rules boil down to).


 They are only "egregious" if the poster already knows the rules and posts those threads anyway. In all other cases, they are simple mistakes that come from not being familiar with the culture of this place -- which is very different from most other forums and chatrooms that I have seen. 

Unless the poster is a Member who already knows the rules, I agree with your idea that we should be patient with anybody who opens a thread entitled "Need help right away plzzzzzzz!!!!" and gently explain how things work around here.


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## Robert_Hope

TrentinaNE said:


> In my experience, Robert, there are plenty of violators who know English damned well but just can't be bothered.


 
Yes, that is also the case. That doesn't mean, however, that those who still struggle with English should be treated as yobs/impolite people. Nor should people be treated badly for simply not understanding how things are done round here if they're new.


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## TrentinaNE

fenixpollo said:


> They are only "egregious" if the poster already knows the rules and posts those threads anyway.


Fenix, my point is: if you can read English and you have *just* registered by clicking on a box that says "yes I have read the rules and agree to abide by them," and yet your very first post violates Rule no. 1, then you are someone who SHOULD know the rules and posting those threads anyway is an egregious violation. 

Robert, do you frequently see people who struggle with English treated as "yobs/impolite people" here? This has not been my experience.  I agree that politeness is critical. 

Elisabetta


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## Robert_Hope

TrentinaNE said:


> Robert, do you frequently see people who struggle with English treated as "yobs/impolite people" here? This has not been my experience. I agree that politeness is critical.
> 
> Elisabetta


 
I've never seen it. I was simply indicating that caution is needed when deciding if someone is being rude and making "egregious violations of the rules and of basic common sense". Politeness _can_ be difficult to convey with a limited vocabulary and what constitutes politeness can vary from country to country.


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## A-class-act

I won't post a fancy !!!!but being here,for me,was;is and will be a big pleasure,of learning,and helping.


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## Aserolf

Me encanta este foro!! Qué puedo decir, es lo máximo para alguien, como yo, que trabaja en el campo de la interpretación/traducción. 
Desde el primer momento me sentí acogida y tuve la suerte de haberme topado con foreros muy amables y cooperativos.
Despues de los primeros 100 posts, yo diría, que me sentí con mas confianza y con el sentido de "pertenecer" al grupo de foreros.
Las reglas de foro las leí antes de postear mi primer pregunta y aunque no las conozco a la perfección, sí puedo decir que por lo menos me tomé la molestia de leerlas antes de pedir ayuda sin "ton ni son".

Dicho lo anterior, creo que es una de las consideraciones o sugerencias que me atrevería a recalcar. Es importante "tomarse la molestia" de leer las reglas antes de hacer una pregunta, pero también es importante que los foreros con mas antigüedad reporten los hilos (por medio del triángulo rojo) con un título totalmente fuera de contexto. De esta manera ayudamos al foro y ayudamos a los newbies a que tomen conciencia de sus errores al postear títulos como: "Ayuda por favor", "Ayuda con traducción", "Translation please", etc. etc. Si no reciben respuestas a sus preguntas se darán cuenta que hicieron algo equivocado y leerán las reglas para saber qué ocurrió, y con suerte, la próxima vez que hagan otra pregunta, sabrán cómo hacerlo correctamente. Pero si respondemos a sus preguntas, lo único que estamos haciendo es darles pie a que sigan haciendo preguntas de este tipo.

Creo que es uno de los principales problemas que veo en este foro, pues aunque no entro con mucha frecuencia, las ocasiones que entro me ha tocado reportar hasta 5 o 6 hilos. Es mucho más fácil encontrar una consulta con un título correcto, que estar adivinando entre miles de títulos semejantes o equivocados.

Por lo demás, mis respetos y admiración para todos los compañeros y en especial para *Mike y su grupo de colaboradores/moderadores*. Han hecho de este foro uno de los favoritos de mucha gente (yo entre ella )!!


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## swift

Hello, Fenix. I think this is a great idea. Thanks for creating this thread.



fenixpollo said:


> When did you feel like you understood the organization of the forum and how things work around here? After 30 posts? After 100? 1000?



As "swift" I would say... after 30 posts. Now I have to point I became a member on 2006 with another user name. I decided to register again a little later, on 2007. Why did I do so ? Because I found it hard to understand the rules and especially the way the forums work.



> When did you feel comfortable/familiar with the rules?


After my second registration, as "swift". I immediately tried to examine the behavior of seniors and moderators in order to follow the rules closely.



> When did you feel like you had a handle on the culture of the place?


After my 300th post. Then I felt free to report posts and to contact moderators, maybe because I noticed some contradictions between the "serious and academic" atmosphere promoted by the rules and the foreros behavior. Chatting for instance.

Moreover, one of the most dangerous practice is the inappropiate taking over of the threads by seniors. The thread creators end up by giving up at a certain point, since they feel their thread is no more theirs.

I hope this comments will be helpful.

Best regards,


swift


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## Loob

swift said:


> Moreover, one of the most dangerous practice is the inappropiate taking over of the threads by seniors. The thread creators end up by giving up at a certain point, since they feel their thread is no more theirs.


I think that's an interesting and important point.  It's all too easy to carry on discussing well beyond the point at which the original question has been answered.  This may be justified, on the grounds that future users of the dictionary might be interested in nuances the OP didn't ask about. But for newbies, it could well be off-putting


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## Veentea

I'm very new, but so far it has been good experience.

I joined in January but I had been using the site for about a year before that, just searching for answers.  I was hesitant to post when I couldn't find an answer because I usually needed an answer in a short period of time.  I didn't realize how many great people you had out there ready to answer a question right away!

So, as a reader I thought the site was pretty good -- if I found my answer, a 50/50 chance.  But now as a "poster" I find the site to be an excellent tool!  I got the answers I needed right away.

I like rules, so having strict rules don't bother me, but I do feel a little anxious before I post because I don't want to do something wrong.  For example I wasn't sure if my question should have been in the vocabulary forum or the grammar forum.  I think I did it right.  

I'm sure I'll get the hang of it.  I have no complaints.  Thanks for a very helpful site!


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## skips.newman

i have found the dictionary the most useful part of this site, as i stumbled upon it while looking for an online dictionary / text translator. then i came across the forum and decided to register. i have just recently moved from a country with hardly any internet connections so the world wide web is new to me are the concepts of 'forums' and 'threads'! it is taking a while to get used to the confusing layout. I can't think of many ways to improve the site though, I'm afraid... but perhaps if there was a 'help' section where everything is explained it would be easier. If such a part exists, I haven't been able to find it!
With time and experience I'll get my "wordreferenceforums.com driver's license"!


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## lablady

skips.newman makes a good point (Welcome, skips).

To a very new newbie, meaning one who is not only new to Wordreference but to forums in general, this type of community can be confusing. Maybe it would help if there was some sort of glossary of terms that explains how it is all set up, such as: Wordreference actually contains a collection of multiple forums rather than one large forum; what is a thread; etc. I found this little bit of help (scroll down), but it's hidden in the FAQs. Maybe it could be expanded, given an obvious title and put in a more obvious place (such as under a clickable label entitled "Help" ).

To answer fenixpollo's question, I, myself, lurked for many months before I registered so I felt at home from day one.


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## Grop

Hi skips.newman, and welcome .

I am not sure it would be much useful for a large number of newbies to be explained what is a forum, what is a thread, etc. Technically these forums are pretty much like any other forums on the internet, and I would think most newbies are already well acquainted to them.

Anyway if you havn't already I would suggest reading the thread about everything (or FAQ as they say).

I am confident that you won't feel so lost after some experience .


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## Loob

Skips.newman, welcome from me too

Especially as you reinforce (I think) my feeling that it would be helpful for newbies to receive a "newbies start here" message.

I adore people who agree with me


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## skips.newman

Thanks for all the welcome comments, folks, and the links suggested!  (blush)


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## danielfranco

I've been thinking about this thread lately…
You know? It seems to me that there is one definite moment when the general public can actually notice that any n00b has become part of the WordReference experience.
It seems that we all arrive to this site with the absolute certainty that we really _know_ what we are talking about. We come to this site with complete conviction that we are experts in whatever it is we do. We come to this site with a clear vision of how far our super-powers extend.

But, although the 'Net is a way to shrink the distances between us, the reality is that this is a _very_ wide world, full of people, everyone doing their own peculiar thing wherever they are. So we arrive at this site and start talking like everyone should listen to what we say, and they should take our word as the golden mean. I mean, _we know what we talkin' 'bout, Willis!_

Instead, we find that whatever we think we know for sure, _it ain't necessarily so_ anywhere else.

I believe that n00bs begin their true WRF citizenship when they learn to express their opinion with phrases like, "in my neighborhood," "in my part of the city," "in my country," "some people, sometimes," etc., and drop the attitude of "shut up and listen to me, I know what's what!"

I guess some of us might be destined to be n00bs forever, though…
D


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## Grop

Loob said:


> Especially as you reinforce (I think) my feeling that it would be helpful for newbies to receive a "newbies start here" message.



I agree this would probably be more efficient than expecting them to find the relevant information by themselves.


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## Paulfromitaly

Loob said:


> Especially as you reinforce (I think) my feeling that it would be helpful for newbies to receive a "newbies start here" message.



We've done that for the En-It new members.
Some of them didn't even read the PM.
Some others read it but didn't follow our suggestions.
Only a few replied with a "Thank you, now I know my way around a little better".


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## commandante

*When did you feel like you understood the organization of the forum and how things work around here? After 30 posts? After 100? 1000?
*
Its just like any other forum [technical and general guidelines wise] so it wasn't/isn't that big of a deal to me!i guess :d unless I'm doin somethin wrong ,like writing "somethin" instead of "something" .*i* guess 

*When did you feel comfortable/familiar with the rules? * 
love at the 1st sight !

*When did you feel like you had a handle on the culture of the place?*
i don't think i have still ,too little smiling faces ,or any kind of faces anyway, you ought to chill a bit thats my only note so far  otherwise its great .
[/B]


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## fenixpollo

commandante said:


> ...too little smiling faces ,or any kind of faces anyway, you ought to chill a bit thats my only note so far...


 So, as I understand it, you would like the forum to have more emoticons or smilies; and you also think that someone should "chill out".  Could you be more specific, please? Who should chill, and what should they do in order to be more chill? It's hard for anyone to improve their behavior unless they know which behaviors to improve. (You can reply here or via PM, if you'd prefer.)


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## commandante

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> So, as I understand it, you would like the forum to have more emoticons or smilies; and you also think that someone should "chill out". Could you be more specific, please? Who should chill, and what should they do in order to be more chill? It's hard for anyone to improve their behavior unless they know which behaviors to improve. (You can reply here or via PM, if you'd prefer.)



yes I'd like that indeed.can i be greedy newbie too ?whats with the 80x80 avatar 2KB avatar ,"why so serious" ?

the general mood here (as far as I've noticed) is too uptight ,its also in the guidelines "not to try and attempt any kind of contact with any other member not concerning the sentence in question-which you should have in the title or otherwise you'll be banned-, if you have a side note send it via PM,if you think someone said something funny tell us who he/she is ;because they haven't had read this guideline apparently ,and shall be executed" .so yea !scary stuff here :/ I'm so happy that I have found this thread i was suffocating


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## Outsider

Robert_Hope said:


> I have also learned that the moderators give a lot of time to their posts (no pun intended... well, not much anyway) and, apparently don't get paid (depsite this being a business as Mike reminds us in another "sticky"). I've wondered sometimes why people take on such a role, if they haven't the patience with newbies..


One might ask instead why we posters should expect patience, when we're not paying the moderators for it.

In reply to Fenix's question, I don't think I can consider myself a newbie, not in comparison to the others who have replied, at any rate, but what I can say is that the rules have changed significantly since I first joined. They were tightened to reduce freestyle chat and contentious topics, and now there's the rule about audio and video links needing prior approval from the moderators. I understand why these changes were made, and I know that we can go to other message boards if we ever feel an irresistible urge to be more chatty. Nevertheless, adjusting to these changes has not been effortless for me. The forums have become more impersonal. They're the rules, and I accept them, but I miss the sense of close community of the old days, which has faded. Such is life!

Most of all, I miss several posters who I met over the years, but were eventually banned. In some cases I can see that they lacked emotional restraint, and their banning was probably a foregone conclusion. But in many cases I never understood what happened. I hasten to add that I never _asked_ the moderators for an explanation; I know I could have done so via private message, but it just did not seem proper. And I do not mean to use this thread to ask for such explanations, or to criticize the decisions of the moderators. This is only to say that the loss of those people added to my (moderate) discomfort in accepting some of the changes in the forums.

Another thing which I confess is disconcerting is when I see someone (sometimes a newbie) post a thread which for some reason is beyond the scope of the forum, and the thread is summarily deleted, with only a short note left behind. I assume the moderators also send an explanation to the poster via private message, as long as it's not a repeat offence, but I also see how this can come off as rigid to people who may have arrived recently in the forums, or who just read. May I suggest locking the offending threads for a while and posting the explanation for their being locked at the end of the thread, instead of deleting them right away? This is already done with old threads that don't meet the rules anymore. The delay need not apply to threads containing spam or vandalism, naturally.

Lastly, some practical remarks. One of the things which confused me several times, and continues to confuse me, is that the rules are not the same in every forum. I hope this is made clear enough to newbies when they register, now. Another thing which would help would be to point newbies to a brief explanation of how to use the search function, and some troubleshooting information, like what to do if you make a mistake in the title of your thread, or if your thread is posted more than once, or if you accidentally post it in the wrong forum.

Thank you.


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## Paulfromitaly

Outsider said:


> Lastly, some practical remarks. One of the things which confused me several times, and continues to confuse me, is that the rules are not the same in every forum. I hope this is made clear enough to newbies when they register, now.



I can't see how it could be any clearer than this 



> *13 - Read the Rules*
> * Each forum applies these rules in a slightly different way. Before posting  in a forum, please read the guidelines for that forum -- they are listed in one  of the first threads at the top of the page.*


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## Outsider

I missed that. 

But the rules aren't just _applied_ differently. There are additional rules in some of the forums. For example English Only has the rule:



> Using languages other than English
> 
> Occasional use of a word or short phrase in another language to illustrate a point is acceptable, but it must be incidental, not essential to understanding the post.
> 
> Posts that are substantially or completely in another language will be deleted.
> 
> As this is an English Only forum, any member with a working knowledge of English should be able to read a thread with the expectation that it will be accessible to them.


...which does not apply to other forums.

I think it could be clearer. You could keep a consistent distinction between "General Rules" that apply to all the forums, and individual "Forum Rules" that apply to specific forums.


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## Paulfromitaly

Outsider said:


> But the rules aren't just _applied_ differently. There are additional rules in some of the forums.



That's correct, hence this clear request


> * Before posting  in a forum, please read the guidelines for that forum*


which can be worded differently as



> Since every forum has its own rules, please make sure you read them before posting.


The problem is another one, in my opinion: there are still too many foreros who won't read the guidelines, even when we send them by PM as we've tried to do.
Why don't they read them?

"Sorry, I'm in a hurry"
"Oh man, you really want me to waste my time reading all that crap? you gotta be kidding me!"
"Sorry, they are too many and too complicated"
"Don't bug me with your stupid rules and help me instead!!"

and so on..


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## Loob

Why don't people follow the rules?

(1) Because their need for an answer is urgent...

(2) Because the rules are hard to understand... (I think the recent re-statement of the rules is much easier to understand than earlier ones)

(3) Because WRF is difficult to navigate unless you understand the structure and the conventions, including the basic _raison d'être_ for the forums....

Boringly, I''ll keep repeating my message: it would be helpful if newbies could receive an automated (NB not a PM-from-a-moderator) message pointing them to helpful info.


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## Paulfromitaly

Loob said:


> Boringly, I''ll keep repeating my message: it would be helpful if newbies could receive an automated (*NB not a PM-from-a-moderator*) message pointing them to helpful info.



Do you really believe that those who can't be bothered to read a PM sent by a Mod would really take the time to read an e-mail instead?


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## stella_maris_74

I agree with Paul. When we (I/E mods) send our tutorial PM, we always try to personalize it, not only by addressing the newbie by their username, but also customizing the tutorial itself according to the guidelines/forum features that the newbie seems to have the most difficulties with as it appears from their first few posts, so as not to overwhelm them with a wealth of unnecessary (at the moment) information or with a lenghty message that they are likely to overlook because it's too long and they're in a hurry (they always are )

Do you really think that an automated, impersonal, and inevitably very long message would succeed where a personalized, focused and friendly PM often fails?


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## Loob

All I can say is that it would have helped me

Oh, and it wouldn't have needed to be long....


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## olivinha

Gee, I totally agree with Loob and vote for her motion of _an automated (NB not a PM-from-a-moderator) message pointing them to helpful info._
My experience with newbies is that they (or at least most of them) are actually willing to learn how to best use the foruns. I've never encountered a newbie with such a defensive and rude attitude as Paul describes in his post 41.


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## romarsan

I think  most newbies read the guidelines before posting, although many times they fail   applying them 

  WRF is a difficult place to navigate at the beginning but it is a really valuable tool. Newbies can need some help either from a moderator or another member of the forum.

  Newbies only need some help and a bit of patient. We only have to remember our firsts months in the forum to understand what a new member needs to feel comfortable. 
  Many times new members break the rules without realizing it and I think it is more effective to write them focusing the explanation in the problem at the moment and avoiding to give them a global explanation about how the forum works.

  Of course if someone gives a moderator an answer as those Paul posted  before it has nothing to do with the common difficulties of a new member.


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## TrentinaNE

olivinha said:


> I've never encountered a newbie with such a defensive and rude attitude as Paul describes in his post 41.


Major, major .  I hope you're enjoying the cocoon the moderators have created for you.  

The problem here is that many people seem to think that what worked for them will work for everybody.  One size does *not* fit all.    That's why there are moderators to respond to (and guide) individuals with their specific difficulties.

Elisabetta


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## jancho

Hello. I am a user from the beginning of January 2009. I have already received FIRST OFFICIAL WARNING from one forum's moderator. *I suggest to send a PM to every new registered user.* It can be done automaticly, so forum moderators won't have any "newbies' duty".



> Hello, welcome in the forum!
> 
> Please do not forget to read the forum rules before posting. If you read it, you will safe much time to forum's moderators. We need to have the forum moderated and nobody wants to add work to people who take care of it.
> 
> I will just mention the most important rule here. It is to look up WRD and perform a search for what you need to help with - because it could be already discussed here before.
> 
> Thank you.



jancho


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## neuromatico

jancho said:


> Hello. I am a user from the beginning of January 2009. I have already received FIRST OFFICIAL WARNING from one forum's moderator. *I suggest to send a PM to every new registered user.* It can be done automaticly, so forum moderators won't have any "newbies' duty".


Speaking for the Italian mods, we usually provide new users with a tutorial PM on how to make best use of the forum and its resources. In addition, we are always available (via PM) to assist with questions and problems.

However, we wouldn't want to give anyone the impression that a "first official warning" arrives unheralded. It is issued rarely and only after a newbie (or a senior member) has already received several friendly PMs providing advice and guidance.


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## panjandrum

I get the impression reading this thread that most newbies cause difficulties or get confused.
That is very far from my experience.
Most newbies arrive and start posting without any problems.
Some don't immediately adapt to the way WR does things and need a bit of help either on the forum or by PM.
A relatively small number need more attention, perhaps several PMs.
A tiny minority refuse to adapt their style to these forums.


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## olivinha

TrentinaNE said:


> Major, major . I hope you're enjoying the cocoon the moderators have created for you.


How many active members are there in WR? All of us were newbies once, so let us remember what kind of newbies were we? In my humble opinion, I think the vast majority of us was not only willing to learn how to best use the foruns but eager to be part of this great community of language lovers and learners.
There are always rude and aggressive people out there, but the atmosphere we breath here is cordial and friendly. At least that's my experience.

Some of us (sometimes) just need more orientation than others, as Panj so _moderately_ puts in his posts.


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## Nunty

I was pretty clueless when I first came here, but I'm one of those compulsive types who read rules. That helped.


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## A-class-act

fenixpollo said:


> What is/was it like to be a new member of the wordreference.com forums?   Share your input however you like, or address any of my follow-up questions:
> When did you feel like you understood the organization of the forum and how things work around here? After 30 posts? After 100? 1000?
> When did you feel comfortable/familiar with the rules?
> When did you feel like you had a handle on the culture of the place?
> 
> I’d like to find out ways that we can improve the newbie experience, and I’d like your input.  We are concerned about individuals, both mods and foreros, and we are looking for your input regarding *general practices in the forum*, *not to specific actions* of either foreros or mods. Please address specific situations or behaviors privately, via private message with moderator(s) or by reporting the post in question by using the little red triangle.


I've found the web site awesome,with its mods,people and the help you can find here,to get better with in langueges .
that's for sure,things get better with the amount of threads you'll open,and like that you introduce yourself to the site,and you will know the organization,even if it seems hard to get it with the first 10 THREADS and who didn't have a mod's messege for his/her first threads!!!!


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## swift

Hello !

There's still another practice that may discourage newbies from posting : getting answers to their questions in their mother language instead of explanations in the foreign language despite their endeavour to ask for help in that foreign language.

Here's food for thoughts...

Best regards,


swift


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## Loob

I had sworn off posting any more replies to this thread.

But I have an overwhelming urge to say that fenixpollo's question is not about how senior members think newbies feel about the forum. It's about how newbies feel about the forum, or about how members/senior members felt about the forum when they were newbies.....


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## fenixpollo

Very true, Loob, and thanks for bringing us back to the original question. The purpose of this thread is not to hear the opinions of senior members or moderators about their observations of newbie behavior.  

The purpose of this thread is for senior members, moderators and the administrator to hear the voices of any member (old or new) and their experiences as new members of the forums, so that we can understand the newbie experience and improve it.


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## A-class-act

Hope I've done my job!!!!
I'm with you,Swift,even if when someone get into a forum where he's not good speaker,all he can do is mention that he's not a good speaker.


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## jeffc418

I love WordReference!  I am a diehard language fanatic and I can't wait to start French lessons next week!  As a newbie still, I only posted in the Italian-English forum until today, when I made a Latin post, and hopefully starting next week I'm going to pry at my brain in the Italian-Francais .  Truthfully, I love the "culture" of the place as it is really thousands of individuals with one common goal.  I've learned that if I find someone who's in my situation, it's more than worth it to try your best at helping them even if the relationship isn't so teacher-student but equal between students.

One more thing: WORDREFERENCE BOOK!!!  Please, get the mods of each section to formalize a guidebook that can be put in print


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## Veentea

_About rules,_ as a newbie, I haven't found the forum too rule-oriented or too stifling. The rules give me comfort that someone (or lots of someones) are out there keeping this a clean place where people can actually get answers.  Sure, chatting is fun but I can do that elsewhere.  [And even here actually, like on this thread].  

_I appreciate the moderators' vigilance_ for two main reasons: 


as a parent I'm not concerned about my children reading over my shoulder when I'm reading a thread.
when I need answers and I search the threads, I know that the posts are not going to waste my time.  The posts will be *on topic and helpful.*
_In reference to a "newbie start here message"_,  I think I did get some kind of message when I registered.  Then I assumed/figured that the stickies where for people like me, but one big obvious IF YOU ARE NEW START HERE link, tab, or something or other, would have been helpful.

_In reference to the atmosphere_ politeness is essential.  I am sure that my blood pressure went up every time I posted, just thinking that I might be breaking a rule.  I only just realized from reading this thread that moderators do gently warn people first and are willing to help struggling newbies.  That makes me feel better and it would have been nice to have understood that earlier.  (It might be written somewhere but I probably forgot or missed it.)

Thanks again for great site!  I wonder if I'm breaking a rule by responding to several things in this one post?


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## Paulfromitaly

Veentea said:


> Thanks again for great site!  I wonder if I'm breaking a rule by responding to several things in this one post?



No, you are not breaking any rule 
You're welcome to address any issue and talk about your personal experience regarding your being a new member of WRF


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## wonderlicious

*What is/was it like to be a new member of the wordreference.com forums?* Well, as a student of French (and German - though obviously for a long time there was no German on here), I used to use Wordreference a lot. I sometimes looked at the related threads linked from the definition pages on the normal website (I remember a uni teacher wanting us to find out some swear words in French, and found out how to say "f*** off" curteousy of a thread on here ). When I properly joined, it therefore felt relatively easy to navigate, but I felt quite alarmed as it shocked me to see just how many languages are covered on here! It took me forever to find the history and cultural discussions, mainly just because I didn't look down enough.  The tone seems very enlightening and insightful, and very regulated. I try to only post when I feel that I have something worthwhile to ask or add, which is why my count currently stands at around 30-something.


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## SDLX Master

Well, it is definitely all in the eye of the beholder.
In my case, I first logged to look up for references (I'm a translator/interpreter) and before signing up I quickly went over the rules and picked them up instantly. Ever since then, I have to say I enjoy answering people's questions. 
If I ever started a thread looking for an answer it probably did not happen more than half a dozen times in my WR history, and I get a kick out of helping out. 
Fair enough to say I felt I belonged to the community when I got a PM for the first time.


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