# Eo tempore plurimos homines adiunxisse sibi Catilina dicitur



## Buonaparte

Forum

My textbook translates 'Eo tempore plurimos homines adiunxisse sibi Catilina dicitur' as:

At that time, Catiline is said to have gathered to himself a very large number of men

My translation was:

At that time it was being said that many men had joined themselves with Catiline, 

Is my translation a valid one? On first reading I took Catilina as an ablative, hence 'with Catiline'.

Many thanks, Buonaparte


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## Starfrown

Buonaparte said:


> Forum
> 
> My textbook translates 'Eo tempore plurimos homines adiunxisse sibi Catilina dicitur' as:
> 
> At that time, Catiline is said to have gathered to himself a very large number of men
> 
> My translation was:
> 
> At that time it was being said that many men had joined themselves with Catiline,
> 
> Is my translation a valid one? On first reading I took Catilina as an ablative, hence 'with Catiline'.
> 
> Many thanks, Buonaparte


 
Your interpretation won't work. There are several problems:

dicitur = (it) _is_ said

_Sibi_ is dative ("_to_ himself/themselves") not accusative, as you have translated it.

The ablative of accompaniment requires the preposition _cum_, thus the only possibility for _Catilina_ is nominative.


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## vega3131

It is reported that Catilina had then enlisted a large number of men.


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## Stoicorum_simia

_Dicitur _here is not impersonal ('it is said that') but used personally with _Catilina_ as subject: 'C. is said to have...'


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## Fantomas.CZ

I must agree with Starfrown. There's one more reason your translation won't work. You have the "plurimos homines" as a subject, but as you see, it's not in nominative, but accusative (plurimos would have to be plurimi).

@Stoics' Monkey
Are you sure? Dicitur is known for the impersonal use like this, btw I don't see any substantial difference between 'it is said that Catilina...' and 'Catilina is said to...'. You do?


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## Stoicorum_simia

Fantomas.CZ said:


> @Stoics' Monkey
> Are you sure? Dicitur is known for the impersonal use like this, btw I don't see any substantial difference between 'it is said that Catilina...' and 'Catilina is said to...'. You do?


 
Not a substantial difference, but a difference in grammatical expression and idiom which can be rendered as you have given it in English; in Latin the difference between full _oratio obliqua _with accusative + infinitive, and a personal construction with nominative and infinitive. According to Gildersleeve and Lodge, para 528, p 332, 'passive verbs of saying (...etc) in the simple tenses prefer the personal construction, in which the accusative subject of the infinitive appears as the nominative subject of the leading verb', and giving as example from _Verrines _4.58, 128 _Aristaeus inventor olei esse dicitur_, 'A. is said to be the inventor of oil' [rather than _Aristaeum inventorem olei esse dicitur_, 'it is said that A. is/was the inventor of oil'].


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## Cagey

I agree with Stoicorum Simia: 
In Latin, _dicitur _is used in _personal _constructions. The difference may be more apparent in other persons or numbers. dicitur:  _He is said to .... _
dicuntur: _They are said to .... _​There are other constructions that work the other way; they are personal in English and impersonal in Latin.  For example: In English: _I am ashamed to ..._. 
In Latin:  _me pudet_. (It shames me ....)​


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## Fantomas.CZ

Stoicorum_simia said:


> Not a substantial difference, but a difference in grammatical expression and idiom which can be rendered as you have given it in English; in Latin the difference between full _oratio obliqua _with accusative + infinitive, and a personal construction with nominative and infinitive. According to Gildersleeve and Lodge, para 528, p 332, 'passive verbs of saying (...etc) in the simple tenses prefer the personal construction, in which the accusative subject of the infinitive appears as the nominative subject of the leading verb', and giving as example from _Verrines _4.58, 128 _Aristaeus inventor olei esse dicitur_, 'A. is said to be the inventor of oil' [rather than _Aristaeum inventorem olei esse dicitur_, 'it is said that A. is/was the inventor of oil'].



Sure, that's true.

However that's just a miniature difference in the meaning, that e. g. Czech and other Slavic languages, German, today's romance languages... don't or even can't express.

But thanks for the correction!


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## Starfrown

Starfrown said:


> dicitur = (it) _is_ said


I realize now that my post may have caused a bit of confusion. My translation of _dicitur_ as "(it) is said" was intended not as the translation required in this case, but only as a generic translation to show the OP that "was being said" was an incorrect rendering; I did not mean to suggest that it was being used impersonally here. I agree with the others that it is quite clear that _Catilina_ is the subject.



Starfrown said:


> The ablative of accompaniment requires the preposition _cum_, thus the only possibility for _Catilina_ is nominative.


While I came to the right conclusion, my reasoning here was flawed. The dative, not the ablative of accompaniment, would be used to indicate the person to whom someone or something is attached.


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