# what is the age of the second from the oldest?



## polyglotwannabe

Hi, hope this question finds you in the pink of health. I need to translate a phrase from a math problem into Spanish for a middle school ESOL class  that I have, but I am having a hard time with the phrase in bold. Here's the problem, my translation and the part I am having trouble with.
The median age of five children is 9.
2 of the children are 5 years old.
The range of all the children is 7.
What is the age of _*the second from the oldest?*_

la edad media de 5 niños es de 9 años.
2 de los niños tienen 5 años.
El rango de todos los niños es de 7 años.
¿Cuál es la edad de_l segundo desde el mayor?

No me parece esta traducción que hice muy clara para mis alumnos hispano-hablantes. La hallo forzada.
Agradezco alguna ayuda,
poly_


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## Reina de la Aldea

Sounds fine to me.  I'll be waiting with interest to see what native speakers have to say


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## swift

… del segundo niño a partir del mayor de ellos.
… del segundo niño, empezando por el mayor.


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## maidinbedlam

Del segundo mayor niño, creo que también podría valer.


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## Artifacs

Mi sugerencia (suponiendo que tus alumnos sepan lo que es el rango):

La edad media de cinco niños es de 9 años.
Dos de los niños tienen 5 años.
El rango de edad del grupo es de 7 años. = La diferencia entre la edad máxima y la mínima es de 7 años.
¿Qué edad tiene el segundo de mayor edad?

Un saludo.


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## polyglotwannabe

Artifacs said:


> Mi sugerencia (suponiendo que tus alumnos sepan lo que es el rango):
> 
> La edad media de cinco niños es de 9 años.
> Dos de los niños tienen 5 años.
> El rango de edad del grupo es de 7 años. = La diferencia entre la edad máxima y la mínima es de 7 años.
> ¿Qué edad tiene el segundo de mayor edad?
> 
> Un saludo.


Wow, all the suggestions are on target for me, but I think that is how I will write the problem. It makes it totally understandable. Thank you.


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## polyglotwannabe

Reina, bedlam, swift, you are amazing, guys. I love languages, but I really stand in awe of your knowledge of the word. Amazing, and thanks!.


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## Artifacs

polyglotwannabe said:


> Wow, all the suggestions are on target for me, but I think that is how I will write the problem. It makes it totally understandable. Thank you.


Any time!!. Bad math student speaking here.


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## polyglotwannabe




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## FromPA

maidinbedlam said:


> Del segundo mayor niño, creo que también podría valer.


I would interpret it to mean the third oldest (the middle child). It’s worded in an odd way.


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## polyglotwannabe

Hey, Philly, at the beginning I thought it was that, and that they were asking the students to find the median. But I took it from their math textbook. I did not write that. It is written that way. And, I am telling you, these guys here are always more than 99 percent on target. Thanks a lot for taking the time to comment but I can not change the wording.


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## Reina de la Aldea

polyglotwannabe said:


> Reina, bedlam, swift, you are amazing, guys. I love languages, but I really stand in awe of your knowledge of the word. Amazing, and thanks!.


Anytime, polyglot.  Always my pleasure.  I love languages too, and I stand in awe of those whose knowledge, insight, ideas and generosity in sharing all those in the WR forums are truly amazing


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## FromPA

polyglotwannabe said:


> Hey, Philly, at the beginning I thought it was that, and that they were asking the students to find the median. But I took it from their math textbook. I did not write that. It is written that way. And, I am telling you, these guys here are always more than 99 percent on target. Thanks a lot for taking the time to comment but I can not change the wording.


I wasn’t suggesting that you change the wording of the question, just the interpretation of what the question is asking for.  They’re not asking for the median age, they’re asking for the age of the third child (edit: by definition, the median age is the age of the middle child).

Oldest.    
2nd oldest.    First from the oldest
3rd oldest.     _*Second from the oldest*_
4th oldest.     Third from the oldest
5th oldest.     Fourth from the oldest

That’s how I interpret it.


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## Reina de la Aldea

FromPA said:


> they’re asking for the age of the third child.


I never would have interpreted it to mean the third child.  To me, it is the age of the second to the oldest (the second oldest/second-born) child


> Of your siblings, are you the oldest child, second oldest, third oldest… or perhaps the youngest?
> The Guardian, "Oldest, Youngest, or Middle Child: How Sibling Birth Order Affects Your Personality


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## SuperScuffer

FromPA said:


> I wasn’t suggesting that you change the wording of the question, just the interpretation of what the question is asking for.  They’re not asking for the median age, they’re asking for the age of the third child.
> 
> Oldest.
> 2nd oldest.    First from the oldest
> 3rd oldest.     _*Second from the oldest*_
> 4th oldest.     Third from the oldest
> 5th oldest.     Fourth from the oldest
> 
> That’s how I interpret it.


I agree it is an odd way to say it, rather than just say "second oldest", but if it said "second from the right" that would mean the second person, not the third, starting on the right.

Similarly "second from the oldest" means the second person, starting with the oldest.

I hate maths questions like this that aren't clear.


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## FromPA

Reina de la Aldea said:


> I never would have interpreted it to mean the third child.  To me, it is the age of the second to the oldest (the second oldest/second-born) child


If you were to ask me the age of the second to the oldest, I’d have to ask you for clarification because I wouldn’t be sure what you meant. The most unambiguous way would be to ask for the second oldest or third oldest. The dirty bastards who write these questions are trying to traumatize our kids with trick questions.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

I agree with @Artifacs in that there doesn't seem to be enough information to solve the problem. So here we are, offering to translate a problem whose author didn't even  bother to write properly.

Generally speaking, the second oldest is "_el segundo mayor_"


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## Artifacs

The only solution for a mean of 9 is: { 5, 5, 11, 12, 12}. So I guess @FromPA is right. It is the age of the child in the middle what's being asked, but the second oldest from the two oldest.


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## FromPA

SuperScuffer said:


> I agree it is an odd way to say it, rather than just say "second oldest", but if it said "second from the right" that would mean the second person, not the third, starting on the right.
> 
> Similarly "second from the oldest" means the second person, starting with the oldest.
> 
> I hate maths questions like this that aren't clear.


It’s a matter of your perceived starting point. If you say that someone is the second from the right (of the row), then you’re referring to the second person in the row.  If the oldest person is sitting in the first seat, then the person in the next seat over is one over *from the oldest*, but two over from the right (i.e., to the right of the first person).


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## polyglotwannabe

I am all eyes. I am just reading what you write. Maybe I can modify the assignment. Math is not my forte. I am just teaching them math so they get the math lingo. The first who posted can modify your advice. I am open to the best answer. Thanks to all of you.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Artifacs said:


> The only solution for a mean of 9 is: { 5, 5, 11, 12, 12}. So I guess @FromPA is right. It is the age of the children in the middle what's being asked.


The problem doesn't say "mean" but "median".  So 9 has to be there.

So we know that the solution will look someting like _{ ... 5, 5, ...,9} _ but that's pretty much all we can say with certainty.


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## Artifacs

polyglotwannabe said:


> I am all eyes. I am just reading what you write. Maybe I can modify the assignment. Math is not my forte. I am just teaching them math so they get the math lingo. The first who posted can modify your advice. I am open to the best answer. Thanks to all of you.


The math problem still makes sense in Spanish, «el segundo de mayor de edad ha de tener 11 años.»


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## FromPA

Artifacs said:


> The only solution for a mean of 9 is: { 5, 5, 11, 12, 12}. So I guess @FromPA is right. It is the age of the child in the middle what's being asked, but the second oldest from the two oldest.


They gave us the median, not the mean.
So the middle child (the median position) is 9,
the two youngest are the two five-year-olds,
Since the range is 7, the oldest is 12.
That leaves two possible answers (10 or 11) for the age of the second oldest, so it’s impossible to know the age of the second oldest from the information given.

edit: second oldest could be 10, 11, or 12.


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## Artifacs

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> The problem doesn't say "mean" but "median".  So 9 has to be there.
> 
> So we know that the solution will look someting like _{ ... 5, 5, ...,9} _ but that's pretty much all we can say with certainty.


Then change "median" to "mean", because the solutions are trivial otherwise.

5,5,9,9,12
5,5,9,10,12
5,5,9,11,12
5,5,9,12,12


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## Artifacs

FromPA said:


> They gave us the median, not the mean.
> So the middle child (the median position) is 9,
> the two youngest are the two five-year-olds,
> Since the range is 7, the oldest is 12.
> That leaves two possible answers (10 or 11) for the age of the second oldest, so it’s impossible to know the age of the second oldest.


You are right!  This math problem seems more interesting my way.


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## polyglotwannabe

Artifacs said:


> You are right!  This math problem seems more interesting my way.


Thanks a millions my good friends. I am sending the textbook answer so you can compare. And who says you are not brilliant at math?. Holytoledo!.


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## polyglotwannabe

I did the translation into Spanish.

(5+5+x+y+z)/5=9
(x+y+z)/5= 9-10/5=7
x+y+z=7x5=35 
Con lo cual queda establecido y confirmado  que los de 5 son los de menor edad y que la única posibilidad es que el resto tenga 12, 12 y 11 años, para sumar 35 y tener el mayor siete años más que los de 5.
El segundo mayor tiene 12, como el primero.


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## polyglotwannabe

I think you know this, but '_the median' _is mediana /o, in math terms. I said this because I have seen that lots of people (hispano-hablantes) understand '_la media_' as '_average' which you all know is 'the mean'._ Just making sure.


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## FromPA

polyglotwannabe said:


> I did the translation into Spanish.
> 
> (5+5+x+y+z)/5=9
> (x+y+z)/5= 9-10/5=7
> x+y+z=7x5=35
> Con lo cual queda establecido y confirmado  que los de 5 son los de menor edad y que la única posibilidad es que el resto tenga 12, 12 y 11 años, para sumar 35 y tener el mayor siete años más que los de 5.
> El segundo mayor tiene 12, como el primero.


Your first line is calculating a mean average rather than a median.  By definition, the median (given as 9) is the middle value, so based on the clues given, this is what you know [5,5,9,?,12].   The age of the second oldest is the only one you can’t solve without more information. 
median - Google Search
Median - English-Spanish Dictionary - WordReference.com


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## polyglotwannabe

Artifacs said:


> Then change "median" to "mean", because the solutions are trivial otherwise.
> 
> 5,5,9,9,12
> 5,5,9,10,12
> 5,5,9,11,12
> 5,5,9,12,12


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## polyglotwannabe

Thanks for your advice artifacts. Yes, I DO AGREE. I have decided to change median to mean and to tweak the context a little bit. That way the answer would be 9, yes, and it would be much clearer for the kids. The goal is to teach them math terms so I think is okay.. Thanks to you and to all for your comments and insight. Appreciated!


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## FromPA

polyglotwannabe said:


> Thanks for your advice artifacts. Yes, I DO AGREE. I have decided to change median to mean and to tweak the context a little bit. That way the answer would be 9, yes, and it would be much clearer for the kids. The goal is to teach them math terms so I think is okay.. Thanks to you and to all for your comments and insight. Appreciated!


I think the whole point of the question is to determine whether the kids understand the definition of “median” (the middle value). The problem is actually solvable without doing any computations at all. If you change the term to “mean,” you’ve defeated the purpose of the question.


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## polyglotwannabe

What's the solution then in clear steps please, keeping the median. If the textbook answer is not good then I will need your input on that. if this help is allowed here, I would love to have it. Thanks, buddy. Appreciated. Yes, they understand it. I have introduced the methods of central tendency to them. At least these: mean, median, mode and range.


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## FromPA

polyglotwannabe said:


> What's the solution then in clear steps please, keeping the median. If the textbook answer is not good then I will need your input on that. if this help is allowed here, I would love to have it. Thanks, buddy. Appreciated. Yes, they understand it. I have introduced the methods of central tendency to them. At least these: mean, median, mode and range.


The answer is 9 (the age of the middle child).  It’s nine because they tell you the median is 9, and the term “median” is defined as the middle value, and the phrase “second from the oldest” means the middle child. That’s all there is to the problem.


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## polyglotwannabe

Wow, you were correct the whole time. This is crazy. Thank you!!!. You are amazing, guys, tip of the hat.


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## ChemaSaltasebes

_La mediana de edad de cinco niños es 9.
Dos de los niños tienen 5 años.
La diferencia de edad entre el mayor y el menor es 7.
¿Cuál es la edad del segundo niño después del mayor?_

El truco del problema, como ya perfectamente resuelto por FromPA, reside en ambos conceptos, el de mediana y el de "segundo niño después del mayor" -que resulta casi tan retorcido como "second from the oldest" y que evita hacer obvia la respuesta en caso de señalar expresamente en la pregunta al "tercer" niño mayor. Como también comentado, se trata de una pregunta "trampa" que no precisa cálculo alguno para resolverse sino tan solo fijarse en los conceptos planteados, y de manera particular en la definición de mediana. El hecho de que, al resolver, la edad del "segundo niño mayor" no pueda especificarse en base a los datos del problema sólo hace de este problema uno más interesante. Tal vez pueda incluirse a modo de pista que el problema no pide la edad del segundo niño mayor_. 

Ed.Add._
O tal vez puedas añadir como pregunta adicional al problema que resuelvan la edad del segundo niño con más edad -a modo de ejemplo de una pregunta que admite un rango de edad como respuesta (entre 9 y 12 años en este caso).


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## polyglotwannabe

ChemaSaltasebes said:


> _La mediana de edad de cinco niños es 9.
> Dos de los niños tienen 5 años.
> La diferencia de edad entre el mayor y el menor es 7.
> ¿Cuál es la edad del segundo niño después del mayor?_
> 
> El truco del problema, como ya perfectamente resuelto por FromPA, reside en ambos conceptos, el de mediana y el de "segundo niño después del mayor" -que resulta casi tan retorcido como "second from the oldest" y que evita hacer obvia la respuesta en caso de señalar expresamente en la pregunta al "tercer" niño mayor. Como también comentado, se trata de una pregunta "trampa" que no precisa cálculo alguno para resolverse sino tan solo fijarse en los conceptos planteados, y de manera particular en la definición de mediana. El hecho de que, al resolver, la edad del "segundo niño mayor" no pueda especificarse en base a los datos del problema sólo hace de este problema uno más interesante. Tal vez pueda incluirse a modo de pista que el problema no pide la edad del segundo niño mayor_. _


Creo que esta muy acerada la propuesta suya. Quedo agradecido. Gracias


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