# Legalization of Prostitution in Germany: Is it working?



## Everness

Prostitution was legalized in Germany in 2002. The government believed that this would help to combat the traffic in women and cut links to organized crime. What do Germans think? Is it working? The following article gives German welfare moms something to think about.

_Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit. _

BS? I don't think so... 

Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specializes in such cases argues, "The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml

Is the system screwed up or is it just out to screw you?


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## jimreilly

This is really hard to believe, and sounds suspiciously like the kinds of scare stories that fundamentalist folks promulgate in the face of such sexual issues as gay marriage or abortion  here in the USA. Has this actually happened to any woman in Germany?


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## SweetMommaSue

This is utterly preposterous!
I'm with jimreilly on this one--has it actually happened to real German women? Or is this simply a scare tactic??
I simply cannot see this as being for real. Non-consentual sex is *rape*. Putting aside all moral arguments for the moment: You cannot "force" women to take part in sexual activities if she does not want to. That is criminal. 

 So--I reiterate: is this for real?? We do not need to be proliferating rumors and falsehoods here. 

--a very skeptical Sweet Momma Sue


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## SweetMommaSue

That site may well be a sham set-up by hackers. . .


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## Outsider

If you are interested in experiments on the legalization of prostitution, *Everness*, I suggest you take a look at Brazil, where they've had one going on for years, now.


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## Quebar

hola como estan todos.

la verdad no estoy de acuerdo con la legalizacion de la prostitucion no solo en alemania si no en cualquier lugar del mundo, una mejor opcion es regalarle educacion y preparacion academica a cada prostituta,para que deje esta profesion y se dedique a labores que no vayan en contra de la moral de ellas, ahora seguramente hay algunas que les gustara seguir en esta condicion pero estas deben ser la minoria, debido a que pocas mujeres les gusta estar acostando con un hombre y con el otro, esta profesion tampoco les da lugar a tener familias ni esposos porque son poco pero bien pocos los hombres que aceptarian a su esposa como una prostituta, esta no es una profesion que se deberia aceptar, creo que hay mejores condiciones de ganarse la vida, este sindrome puede que aumente las enfermedades de transmision sexual,abortos, abandono de niños, violencia intrafamiliar.
bueno esta opinion es muy personal, y no la puedo generalizar ni imponer, pero si pido que la mediten y si gustan que la critiquen.

gracias amigos foreros, por su atencion.


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## Everness

> Nonetheless, the unacceptability of legalization of prostitution is deeply rooted. Namely, the prostitution is not and cannot be a profession. The prostitution is exploitation and violence over women.



http://see.oneworld.net/article/view/123421/1/3260

I disagree. Prostitution is exploitative and violent when a woman (or a man, let's not be sexist) are coerced to practice it. Otherwise, beauty pageant contests with scantily clothed women who get paid loads of money should fall into the same category.


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## Quebar

hay muchos tipos de prostitucion, en suramerica, muchas estudiantes de universidad para pagar sus semestres de estudios se prostituyen para asi poder pagar su educacion, este tipo de mujer no anda por las calles vendiendose ni reglalandose, este tipo de mujeres lo hacen por medio de amistades que las recomiendan o por e-mails, bueno en todo caso alemania es una de las potencias mundiales y tiene el dinero suficiente para fomentar nuevas opciones de empleo que no vayan en contra de la moral de una sociedad, no se puede negar que la prostitucion no ha dado buenos resultados, el trafico de niños y de mujeres no ha disminuido, la solucion creo muuy personalmente que no fue la mas acertada, esperemos que con la nueva canciller se pueda sustentar una reforma de ley que pueda ser mas beneficiosa para estas mujeres que segurmante por no estar preparadas en nada y para no morirse de hambre se venden por unos euros o dolares.

gracias por sus aportes amigos foreros


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## Márcio Osório

"How old [johns] are doesn't 'have any importance.'" --> Whoever wrote this meant, "... doesn't matter." Or "... doesn't make any difference." As a Recife Brazil national would have written it, at least.

For as little as I know, it seems prostitution in Brazil has long gone legal. Or come to stay. Local accosting (and non-accosting) whores can legally file complaints against and bring to court stingy johns for lack of payment. Brazilian economists say a steady flow of male gringo tourists coming to the country, nearly all of whom exclusively for the whores, have helped keep the economy up. 

This local Recife resident does not know (and has never cared) why so many young Brazilian prostitutes illegally accost the respective, sexually prone male population in their respective foreign countries. But you'd probably guess why. Uai. Uai. Uai.


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## Maria Juanita

I think things are not that simple, Quebar. I have friends who, at some point in their lifes have been in the sex bussiness for quite a while and they don't only do it because of a lack of education and opportunities. They like to do it. Besides, most of trouble prostitution causes is due to the fact that it's not legal. 

Things are not simple...or devil makes you believe they aren't. Are they?  héhé...

Saludillos


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## jimreilly

I don't know the numbers, but we are mostly talking about prostitutes being women; I have known men who have worked, albeit sporadically and in an unorganized way, as prostitutes, in both straight and gay sex. Some people seem to have less trouble thinking that adult men, more than adult women, can do such a thing by their own choice. I think there may be a double standard here.

I know that prostitution is sometimes, often in some places, accompanied by coercion and violence, for men and women of any age. But I also believe that some adults, men and women, are as capable of chosing to do such things as any of us are of chosing to enlist in the army or work for Microsoft. 

It seems to me that legalization might reduce the use of coercion and violence involved in prostitution, as well as lessen the spread of sexually transmitted disease. We need to hear even more reports from places where prostitution is legal (including, evidently, Nevada). Sorry I can't read the posts in Spanish, they might contain such reports--not to discourage anyone from posting anything in any language!


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## Quebar

creo y sostengo que alemania puede hacer un plan de trabajo social y moral con prostitutas mujeres, o con hombres que tambien practiquen este tipo de profesion, hay algo que quiero remarcar, por el hecho de ser legal no significa que sea moral ni beneficioso para la sociedad, lo legal en muchos casos no es beneficioso, debido a que muchas leyes aparentemente son buenas o justas pero en realidad no son correctas o son beneficiosas, hay un sin numero de maneras de que alguien pueda subsistir, conozco gente que fue pobre y no tuvo necesidad de prostituirse para progresar, ahora hay gente que no tiene ninguna necesidad de prostituirse y lo hacen porque les gusta, pero bueno esa es otra historia en donde se ve involucrado topicos espirituales y morales que estarian off-topic.

gracias por sus opiniones.


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## Everness

Why prostitution should be legalized?​-By Father Everness​
Picture a continuum. Place prostitution on one of the extremes. Here women use their bodies to make ends meet while men pay to have sex with them. Next to it, place adult magazines and porn movies. In this case, women use their bodies to make ends meet. Men don't have access to women's bodies. They m*st*rbate looking at the pictures or movies (Not that I've ever done this, ok?). Next on the continuum, place beauty pageants. Here women use their bodies to make ends meet. Men admire women's boobs, bottoms, and legs and couldn't care less if the contestants pick "World peace" as their dream for humanity. I could continue going down the continuum but I would alienate most females so I'll stop here. 

Do you see my point? Prostitution is on the same continuum as all the other activities. Qualitatively speaking prostitution isn't different from the other activities. They all have at least two things in common. First, all these activities allow women to get money from men. Second, all these activities treat women as objects. 

So let's not be hypocrites. If adult magazines, porn movies, beauty pageants are legal, there's no reason prostitution shouldn't be legal too. Otherwise, and if we want to be consistent, we should ban adult magazines, porn movies, and beauty pageants.


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## nycphotography

Everness said:
			
		

> Do you see my point? Prostitution is on the same continuum as all the other activities. Qualitatively speaking prostitution isn't different from the other activities. They all have at least two things in common. First, all these activities allow women to get money from men. Second, all these activities treat women as objects.
> 
> So let's not be hypocrites. If adult magazines, porn movies, beauty pageants are legal, there's no reason prostitution shouldn't be legal too. Otherwise, and if we want to be consistent, we should ban adult magazines, porn movies, and beauty pageants.


 
And short red skirts (or red lipstick) at business meetings???
Or cute blonde car sales[wo]men??
Or cute young waitresses??
Or cute young pop stars??

Fact: men control [most of] the money.
Fact: women control [most of] the sex.
Fact: commodity imbalances are nearly always corrected by _either_ trade, _or_ by war.

conclusion: ??? Dunno. But I think I prefer p* payments to p wars.

* a special thank you to Chris Rock.


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## Everness

nycphotography said:
			
		

> And short red skirts (or red lipstick) at business meetings???



Off topic for a second. Do women wear short red skirts to make sure that men turn around and look at their ass*s or they do it to make other women jealous or envious? Or is it both? 

Back to our topic. Women have the same right to wear short red skirts, sexy lingerie and high heels as to practice prostitution or anything in between.


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## cuchuflete

So, tell us Everness,

Do you have an opinion?  Is prostitution working in 
Germany?


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## Quebar

es un poco extraño para mi pero respetable a la vez que un padre este de acuerdo con la legalizacion de la prostitucion, bueno por mi parte considero que la pornografia,las revistas, peliculas, tambien son actos de prostitucion a los que se debe poner mayores restricciones, debido a que son mayor los numeros de niños que pervierten o dañan sus mentes viendo esta clase de cosas, conoci a un grupo de niños de quince años y de catorce años que hiban a donde las prostitutas y tanto los daño esto que su imagen de la mujer seguramente esta denigrada, sigo en mi opinion de que hay otras salidas que hay que evaluar tambien, lo mas facil es acomodarnos, lo mas dificil es ejercer cambios pero los cambios son lo que hacen que una sociedad cambie, soy responsable de esta opinion por lo cual no pido que nadie la comparta, pero si que la escuchen y la evaluen

gracias amigos foreros, espero que me corrijan,critiquen y aporten a mi concepto.


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## Everness

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> So, tell us Everness,
> 
> Do you have an opinion?  Is prostitution working in
> Germany?



I don't live in Germany but I assume that business is alive and kicking. I'm sure that they are getting ready for the 2006 FIFA World Cup. My prediction? Germany will beat Brazil in the final match.


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## Everness

Quebar said:
			
		

> es un poco extraño para mi pero respetable a la vez que un padre este de acuerdo con la legalizacion de la prostitucion, bueno por mi parte considero que la pornografia,las revistas, peliculas, tambien son actos de prostitucion a los que se debe poner mayores restricciones, debido a que son mayor los numeros de niños que pervierten o dañan sus mentes viendo esta clase de cosas, conoci a un grupo de niños de quince años y de catorce años que hiban a donde las prostitutas y tanto los daño esto que su imagen de la mujer seguramente esta denigrada, sigo en mi opinion de que hay otras salidas que hay que evaluar tambien, lo mas facil es acomodarnos, lo mas dificil es ejercer cambios pero los cambios son lo que hacen que una sociedad cambie, soy responsable de esta opinion por lo cual no pido que nadie la comparta, pero si que la escuchen y la evaluen
> 
> gracias amigos foreros, espero que me corrijan,critiquen y aporten a mi concepto.



¡Ay hermano! Lo de Padre es una joda. Un moderador me bautizó así. Pero te dejo un pasaje bíblico para que reflexiones. Vas a ver que mi teoría no es tan espeluznante.

Jesús y el adulterio -Mateo 5.27-30

27 Oísteis que fue dicho: No cometerás adulterio.

28 Pero yo os digo que cualquiera que mira a una mujer para codiciarla, ya adulteró con ella en su corazón. 

29 Por tanto, si tu ojo derecho te es ocasión de caer, sácalo, y échalo de ti; pues mejor te es que se pierda uno de tus miembros, y no que todo tu cuerpo sea echado al infierno. 

30 Y si tu mano derecha te es ocasión de caer, córtala, y échala de ti; pues mejor te es que se pierda uno de tus miembros, y no que todo tu cuerpo sea echado al infierno.


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## cuchuflete

Well Father,
I suppose that if there are many Germans who act in accord with such texts, the prosthesis business should be keeping up with the prostíbulos.


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## luar

Para seguir la joda
After reading the following:_"...las prostitutas os precederán en el reino de los cielos" _Mateo 12, 31 I am seriously considering to open myself a brothel. I would like everyone to enjoy heaven.

Ahora en serio
Unos versos de la mexicana Sor Juana Inés De la Cruz:
_ “¿Quién será más de culpar_ 
_ aunque cualquiera mal haga:_ 
_ La que peca por la paga,_ 
_ o el que paga  por pecar?”_


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## Sparkle

This whole legalization of prostitution thing, whether happening in Germany, England, China, whatever, just makes me sick (!!), honestly. There was a documentary the other day on TV about it. 
This reminds me of an economist, last year, who spotted that the question (about our country's deficit) wasn't if it was gonna be 3% - within the accepted EU media - or above it; the question was that we shouldn't even have a deficit!!

Legalize prostitution is the same as saying that women can be used and exploited, as long as they're granted a few "rights". Consider them "workers" is the most absurd, pathetic, sad thing I've ever heard, and it makes me disgusted that we've got to this point.


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## ampurdan

Unfortunately, I can't contribute any data concerning Germany's legalization of prostitution. I've been in Berlin this Summer and I've seen that sex is just another piece of urban ambiance in the city -_Dazu gratuliere ich euch herzlich, Berliner! (Aber nicht zum NiederreiBen des Palasts der Republik)_- But I don't remember to have met any prostitute, male or female, in the street, whereas in Catalonia, I am tired of coming across women and men looking like women standing in the middle of the street, on the berms of the local roads, under the heaviest rain and the most blazing sun and bearing the coldest days of winter with scanting clothes. Do I need to say that most of them don't look like their papers being in order? I'm quite sure that legalization would help that their work conditions be a little less dire.


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## Everness

Either there are no Germans in this forum or they are sensible or spiritual enough to stay away from this decadent thread. 

I was asked to share my thoughts about the legalization of prostitution in Germany. Read at your own risk.

The only reason Germans decided to legalize prostitution is to increase tax revenue. Period. I don't think they care about sex workers, prostitutes, or whores. "Scr*w them!" is their motto. These guys are only concerned with the bottom line. 

Just think for a moment. Prostitution was mostly an under-the-table cash business. Now brothels hire women and men, have payrolls, and accept American Express, Visa and MasterCard! (If you are married, just make sure that your statement isn't mailed to your home). I'm sure that since 2002, Germany's version of the IRS has seen a significant increase in revenue.


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## Ralf

The following is not going to reflect my personal opinion of prostitution or legalization of prostitution in Germany. But I think that several things have gotten mixed up here.





			
				Everness said:
			
		

> ...
> The only reason Germans decided to legalize prostitution is to increase tax revenue. Period. ... I'm sure that since 2002, Germany's version of the IRS (= Finanzamt) has seen a significant increase in revenue.


The first part is probably true. In practice, however, prostitution is a cash business, and taxes are almost never paid and rarely enforced.

Originally, the legalization of prostitution was aimed to clarify the social (and legal) status of prostitutes. Their activities are accepted as professions, but have not the same status (and social acceptance) as regular occupations. They are now allowed to offer their services and to get paid for them ... and they are allowed to participate in (and obliged to contribute to) the social welfare systems (paying taxes and for compulsory pension and health insurances). Furthermore, the legalization of prostitution was to dam the criminality usually coming along with prostitution. Thus pimping (procuring prostitutes) is strictly illegal. In theory, prostitutes are regarded as economically independent individuals.





			
				Everness said:
			
		

> ...
> Now brothels hire women and men, have payrolls, and accept American Express, Visa and MasterCard! (If you are married, just make sure that your statement isn't mailed to your home). ...


Also in theory, prostitutes in brothels work on their own accounts, but are supposed to pay rent for rooms and facilities provided by the brothel on a contractory basis. So they are no employees. Jobs offered by brothels or their owners generally refer to management and maintenance (managers, accountants, housekeepers, barkeepers, janitors, ...)--not to the prostitution business itself. So I don't think that anyone can be forced to work as a prostitute--and no-one would be in danger of losing unemployment benefit when turning down such offers. 

In my understanding, German social legislation provides wide discretion even to reject a job as a barkeeper or janitor in a brothel when the adequateness of a questionable "job environment" is in conflict with moral objections or religious convictions. Of course, anyone in that situation have to be aware of their rights and to claim for unemployment benefits if need be.

In my opinion the telegraph article in question is simplifying things and mixing up legalization of prostituiton and welfare reforms in Germany by creating a scenario with effect--the reason behind it surprisingly managed to escape my imagination.  

Ralf

P. S. Personally, I feel that prostitution is disrespectful and therefore downright immoral. Its legalization is evidence of helplessness and failure in the approach towards the problems associated with prostitution--a failure that, sadly enough, seems to be inherent to human nature.


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## chula

Lo ilegal de la prostitución, es el prostituirse? ó que un individuo vaya con una prostituta? O ambas cosas?

En un país donde la prositución es ilegal, casi siempre o siempre son las prostitutas las que pagan con la cárcel no? Hasta en esa ley hay machismo, porque si se buscara el bien de la mujer, pues entonces también deberían de meter a la cárcel a los hombres por ir a prostitutas no?

Que piensan de eso?


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## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> The only reason Germans decided to legalize prostitution is to increase tax revenue. Period. I don't think they care about sex workers, prostitutes, or whores. "Scr*w them!" is their motto. These guys are only concerned with the bottom line.


I suspect you meant "the German government".

Whether or not their intentions are pure and immaculate, what really matters is whether the new legislation will have a positive effect on the dayly lives of prostitutes.

What Ralf wrote seems similar to what I've read about the legalization of prostitution in Brazil: you make prostitution legal, _but keep pimping illegal_. This way, the exploitation and the coertion of prostitutes is discouraged, and they can use the law to protect themselves from abuses.

It's all very fine and good to say that prostitution _shouldn't_ exist, but the fact is that it does. It has existed probably for as long as civilization, and there are no signs that it's going away any time soon. Even St. Augustine admitted that prostitution was a necessary evil, 1500 years ago. The realistic choice is not between allowing prostitution and ending it; it's between giving prostitutes -- the victims of this system, after all -- some tools to defend themselves from the worst abuses, or just looking the other way while they're exploited.


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## ampurdan

chula said:
			
		

> Lo ilegal de la prostitución, es el prostituirse? ó que un individuo vaya con una prostituta? O ambas cosas?
> 
> En un país donde la prositución es ilegal, casi siempre o siempre son las prostitutas las que pagan con la cárcel no? Hasta en esa ley hay machismo, porque si se buscara el bien de la mujer, pues entonces también deberían de meter a la cárcel a los hombres por ir a prostitutas no?
> 
> Que piensan de eso?


 
En España la prostitución es ilegal, pero eso no significa que sea un delito, sino que no está reconocido como un trabajo, autónomo o dependiente. Aunque las trabajadoras nacionales cotizan en la Seguridad Social y pagan sus impuestos como masagistas o similares... El problema es que no hay acción para la protección de todas las "no-trabajadoras" en la calle, porque no se reconoce que estén trabajando.


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## Everness

Ralf said:
			
		

> P. S. Personally, I feel that prostitution is disrespectful and therefore downright immoral. Its legalization is evidence of helplessness and failure in the approach towards the problems associated with prostitution--a failure that, sadly enough, seems to be inherent to human nature.



Thank you Ralf for providing us with the German perspective. You argue that prostitution is downright immoral. I think we get fixated on sexual sins and tend to downplay the obscenity of other types of sins that are committed daily toward women. For instance, some women work 80-hour weeks in poor conditions for pennies per hour in sweatshops across the world. 

My point? Poor women get screwed anyways either by their customers or by their employers. In both cases they are prostituting themselves. Same exploitation, different pimps. However, we have decided that one type of prostitution is way more more sinful than the other one. 

So let's leave women alone and stop passing judgment on their character or their professions. After all, all this BS about legalizing or criminalizing prostitution is another example of guys trying to control women and deciding what's good and bad for them.


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## ampurdan

I'm a man and I feel free to give my opinion about any topic as women are. Moreover, men can be prostitutes as well... Or should I say: sex workers for both sexes?


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## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> So let's leave women alone and stop passing judgment on their character or their professions. After all, all this BS about legalizing or criminalizing prostitution is another example of guys trying to control women and deciding what's good and bad for them.


Should we scrap sexual harassment laws, too? They were written mostly by men.

I agree with *Ampurdan*: prostitution does not concern only women, and everyone has the right to have an opinion about it.

And here's an idea: have you asked female prostitutes what _they_ think about the legalization of their profession?


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## Everness

ampurdan said:
			
		

> I'm a man and I feel free to give my opinion about any topic as women are. Moreover, men can be prostitutes as well... Or should I say: sex workers for both sexes?



Feel free to call them whores too. As you may have already realized, we have many different words to describe prostitutes, actually 994 words. However, it's interesting that we don't have any words for guys who b*ng prostitutes. Oh, yes sorry... we call them customers...

As Sister luar wrote: 



			
				luar said:
			
		

> Unos versos de la mexicana Sor Juana Inés De la Cruz:
> _ “¿Quién será más de culpar_
> _ aunque cualquiera mal haga:_
> _ La que peca por la paga,_
> _ o el que paga  por pecar?”_


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## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> Feel free to call them whores too. As you may have already realized, we have many different words to describe prostitutes, actually 994 words. However, it's interesting that we don't have any words for guys who b*ng prostitutes. Oh, yes sorry... we call them customers...


I believe the girls call them "johns". There may be other, less flattering terms, too.


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## nycphotography

Outsider said:
			
		

> What Ralf wrote seems similar to what I've read about the legalization of prostitution in Brazil: you make prostitution legal, _but keep pimping illegal_. This way, the exploitation and the coertion of prostitutes is discouraged, and they can use the law to protect themselves from abuses.


 
I think by and large, this is the point that the article has missed entirely.

The entire moral point (there is also an economic one) of legalizing it is to remove (or at least minimize) the exploitation aspect.

Having the state become the _replacement pimp_ is neither intended, nor tolerable, and I don't for one second believe the German people will stand by and allow that to happen.


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## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> Should we scrap sexual harassment laws, too? They were written mostly by men.



Probably you're right. Most governments (three branches) are made up by guys. Isn't it weird that women are underrepresented across the political board? Fortunately there are many women and pro-feminist men (no, they aren't necessarily gay) who have put women-friendly initiatives on the political agenda. Otherwise, women would continue to be perceived and treated as commodities to be used and abused. So, if you don't mind, let's not touch the sexual harassment laws.


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## cuchuflete

Putting on the unstylish, floppy, needs cleaning, Moderator hat...


Everness,

We have a clear rule for the forums, stating that we should all stick to the topic of a thread.  Please help me:


What is the topic of this thread?  Is it a bit of yellow press tossed out to begin a conversation about everything and anything anyone feels like talking about, or is there something
specific you would like to discuss?

thanks,
Cuchuflete,
Moderator


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## Everness

Different European countries are dealing with prostitution differently. Germany and the Netherlands fully legalized prostitution. Sweden, legalized it and then fully prohibited it. France adopted the abolitionist model: you can practice prostitution but you can't turn it into an organized commercial for-profit activity. I think they mean that you can have your private practice but pimps aren't allowed to run the show. 

* The purpose of this thread is to find out how different countries, in this case Germany, are faring after legalizing prostitution. Has women trafficking decreased? Have links to organized crime been cut? *Interestingly enough, only one German answered but he didn't elaborate on outcomes. However, it's impossible to discuss the legality or illegality of prostitution without discussing its morality or immorality and the basis for such opinions.


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## jimreilly

So, again, anyone from Nevada care to comment on the success of legalized prostitution there?


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## cuchuflete

Everness,
That really does help. Thanks.  

Un saludo,
Cuchu




			
				Everness said:
			
		

> Different European countries are dealing with prostitution differently. Germany and the Netherlands fully legalized prostitution. Sweden, legalized it and then fully prohibited it. France adopted the abolitionist model: you can practice prostitution but you can't turn it into an organized commercial for-profit activity. I think they mean that you can have your private practice but pimps aren't allowed to run the show.
> *
> The purpose of this thread is to find out how different countries, in this case Germany, are faring after legalizing prostitution. Has women trafficking decreased? Have links to organized crime been cut?* Interestingly enough, only one German answered but he didn't elaborate on outcomes. However, it's impossible to discuss the legality or illegality of prostitution without discussing its morality or immorality and the basis for such opinions.


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## Everness

I stated above that the sex industry, particularly prostitution, is alive and kicking in Germany. I'm now backing up my statement. 

http://news.sawf.org/Sports/4413.aspx



> In Berlin itself, a five-million-euro brothel has just opened in 3,000sq metres of a refurbished warehouse just three train stops from the main Cup venue, the Olympic Stadium.
> 
> The four-storey building will accommodate up to 100 prostitutes and 650 male clients, and importantly the owners of Artemis will demand that its sex workers provide their tax number and proof of permission to work in the European Union.



Ah, I'm intrigued about what the lawyer for Artemis said, "Football and sex belong together."  I just hope that he doesn't mean what I think he means...


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## GenJen54

Beware, beware of sources from many places - even those deemed credible. 

May I present THIS.

Perhaps one of our German-speaking forer@s will be able to confirm the veracity of the original story, found in German HERE.


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## Ralf

Everness said:
			
		

> Interestingly enough, only one German answered but he didn't elaborate on outcomes. ...


Sorry if I failed . But I simply concentrated on the conclusions drawn in the quotation from the article in your first post and forgot about your accompanying questions. Please let me express a few thoughts on GenJen’s post first.





			
				GenJen54 said:
			
		

> ...
> Perhaps one of our German-speaking forer@s will be able to confirm the veracity of the original story, found in German HERE.


I figured as much, but didn’t want to question the credibility of the article in the first place. Thanks to your research I found my doubts confirmed. As for the veracity of the German original, it should be considered that the _tageszeitung_ is a leftist daily that only too willingly makes a point of pointing out on social evils in Germany--frequently in a satirical, but sometimes provocative way. I would not dare to label that kind of journalism as propaganda, but sometimes it comes pretty close to it.

The original article merely states there *could* be the possibility that women rejecting job offers to work as prostitutes *might* be faced with cuts in their unemployment benefits in consequence for reasons of a suspected “legal grey area”. But there are no reports on actual cases as in the telegraph article.

Even the quotation of the German lawyer is distorted: She is a lawyer specialized in social and domestic relations law, but never claimed to be specialized in cases where women had to accept the loss of unemployment benefits for turning down dubious job offers. In fact, she didn’t mention this consequence in the German article at all.





			
				Everness said:
			
		

> *The purpose of this thread is to find out how different countries, in this case Germany, are faring after legalizing prostitution. Has women trafficking decreased? Have links to organized crime been cut? *


I’m afraid that legalizing prostitution didn’t affect organized crimes associated with prostitution significantly. To my knowledge trafficking in of women, mostly from Eastern Europe, hasn’t decreased. Still they are delivered to illegal brothels and private clubs to work as prostitutes—probably because too much money can be earned made in that business and prosecution as well as law enforcement is far from being effective in this field.

Ralf


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## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> And here's an idea: have you asked female prostitutes what _they_ think about the legalization of their profession?



Yes, but she said it would cost me extra. I'll try again next time. 



			
				Ralf said:
			
		

> Sorry if I failed
> I’m afraid that legalizing prostitution didn’t affect organized crimes associated with prostitution significantly. To my knowledge trafficking in of women, mostly from Eastern Europe, hasn’t decreased. Still they are delivered to illegal brothels and private clubs to work as prostitutes—probably because too much money can be earned made in that business and prosecution as well as law enforcement is far from being effective in this field.
> Ralf



Thank you Ralf. As usual, good, thorough and well-thought answers. I'm sure it's difficult to gauge how effective the decision to legalize prostitution has been. First, it was just legalized 2 or 3 years ago. Second, it's hard to collect hard and reliable data on prostitution. Data collected is directly proportional to number of busts. And we know that sometimes law enforcement is "ineffective" because they want to collect their well-deserved cut.


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## Everness

So let’s share some thoughts about this languishing thread before it's closed for good.

1.	The lack of participation of Germans --with the sole and distinguished participation of insightful, knowledgeable and articulate Ralf--shows that they don’t particularly care about the legalization of prostitution in their country. I think that such attitude is absolutely understandable and justifiable. They are exclusively focused on winning the next World Cup. This is their big chance to sing Queen’s “We are the Champions” next summer. What strategies will they apply to achieve such goal? I’m wondering if they are planning to send prostitutes to the rival teams the night before each game… 

2.	The prickly topic of prostitution gets in the way of discussing any other topic related to prostitution, e.g.: its legalization. Rereading the thread I realize that most of us consider prostitution immoral. This stand renders the discussion on its legality almost irrelevant. Something to think about: Are all immoral things naturally and indisputably illegal and all legal things morally right? 

3.	Most of us are against prostitution but we aren't willing to elaborate on the rationale behind our stand. Ralf, who conveys his ideas with enviable clarity and forcefulness, epitomizes this attitude. 



			
				Ralf said:
			
		

> P. S. Personally, I feel that prostitution is disrespectful and therefore downright immoral. Its legalization is evidence of helplessness and failure in the approach towards the problems associated with prostitution--a failure that, sadly enough, seems to be inherent to human nature.



 	It’s like deep down we "know" that prostitution is wrong and there’s nothing redeemable in it. The expectation is that we all should share this attitude and that there’s no need to discuss it rationally. I identified two types of responses. One is condescension. “Ah, these poor women who are being taken advantage of.” I think that this shows absolute disrespect toward women and their right to do whatever they want with their bodies while blatantly overlooking their ability to take care of themselves. The other has to do with relying on an external source of authority. “Prostitution is wrong because God (or society, or my mother, or the preacher, etc.) said so. End of story.” I don’t think the Almighty would mind if we use our head a bit --it has other purposes besides allowing us to wear a baseball cap-- and try to explain rationally the pros (if they are any -but of course we all know they are none so why waste our precious time) and cons of prostitution. But deep-rooted prejudices are overriding our critical thinking. 

So you can now close this thread and give it a proper burial… 

Father Everness


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## ampurdan

Or else you can simplify it all and ask: "Would you pay to have sex?". My answer: not today and predictably not tomorrow but who knows... I don't see any reason to ban this transaction per se. It can be an unfair deal, but that's entirely another matter which has to do more with general exploitation. "Would you work as a sex provider?" It's not my first option but life has ups and downs, so... It's good I have this "ultima ratio", and if I had to do it, I would appreciate they grant me Social Security Assistance and to have legal defences against exploitative bosses.


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## cuchuflete

You don't really want it closed...you are looking for some pungent debate.

I offer a few transient thoughts.

1. What Germany does, from a moral and legal standpoint, is up to the people of Germany.  If their government officials are at all like mine, they will commit a serious mistake and do something useful once in a while.

2. Prostitution, or more particularly the reasons for it,  is sad but true.  All the moralistic preaching does nothing at all to correct the situation.   How many johns are bible thumpers?   Even men (and women) 'of the cloth'?

3. So there is this quaint notion of supply and demand.  If the 
good people who pay lip service to religious principles didn't patronize whores, whoredom would have fewer members.  What would they do for a livelihood if this option were to go away?  I have no idea.   It is likely, however, that the alternatives would be more highly taxed, thus the state interest in legalizing it?




			
				Everness said:
			
		

> So let’s share some thoughts about this languishing thread before it's closed for good.
> 
> 1.    The lack of participation of Germans --with the sole and distinguished participation of insightful, knowledgeable and articulate Ralf--shows that they don’t particularly care about the legalization of prostitution in their country. (or that they simply didn't notice your thread?  or...that they saw it and were embarassed by the topic? )I think that such attitude is absolutely understandable and justifiable. They are exclusively focused on winning the next World Cup. This is their big chance to sing Queen’s “We are the Champions” next summer. What strategies will they apply to achieve such goal? I’m wondering if they are planning to send prostitutes to the rival teams the night before each game… (Screw up the opposition?  How very unsportsman like.  You are a terrible cynic, Mr. Everness.)
> 
> 2.    The prickly topic of prostitution gets in the way of discussing any other topic related to prostitution, e.g.: its legalization. Rereading the thread I realize that most of us consider prostitution immoral. This stand renders the discussion on its legality almost irrelevant. Something to think about: Are all immoral things naturally and indisputably illegal and all legal things morally right?
> 
> 3.    Most of us are against prostitution but we aren't willing to elaborate on the rationale behind our stand. Ralf, who conveys his ideas with enviable clarity and forcefulness, epitomizes this attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s like deep down we "know" that prostitution is wrong and there’s nothing redeemable in it. The expectation is that we all should share this attitude and that there’s no need to discuss it rationally. I identified two types of responses. One is condescension. “Ah, these poor women who are being taken advantage of.” I think that this shows absolute disrespect toward women and their right to do whatever they want with their bodies while blatantly overlooking their ability to take care of themselves. The other has to do with relying on an external source of authority. “Prostitution is wrong because God (or society, or my mother, or the preacher, etc.) said so. End of story.” I don’t think the Almighty would mind if we use our head a bit --it has other purposes besides allowing us to wear a baseball cap-- and try to explain rationally the pros (if they are any -but of course we all know they are none so why waste our precious time) and cons of prostitution. But deep-rooted prejudices are overriding our critical thinking.
> 
> So you can now close this thread and give it a proper burial… Nope!  You started this mess, and now the genie is out of the bottle, standing on the streetcorner with thigh-high purple plastic imitation patent leather boots.  Someone is sure to come along and want to indulge her or himself in a little pleasure.
> 
> Father Everness


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## Edwin

It is interesting that according to the Wikipedia article linked to below: 





> In Spain prostitution is legal in buildings called puticlubs, but only citizens from spain are allowed to be prostitues.



Wikipedia has extensive information on the subject  including special entries for prostitution in Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland, New Zealand, and other places. 

See Prostitution in Germany.  This page also has links to further information about this subject. One link even has links to the subject for many individual cities in Germany.  For the overall entry on the subject see Prostitution.


Some sources and external links which may be found in the German entry:

    * B. Leopold, E. Steffan, N. Paul: Dokumentation zur rechlichen und sozialen Situation von Prostitutierten in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Schriftenreihe des Bundesministeriums für Frauen und Jugend, Band 15, 1993. (German)
    * HYDRA, support organization for prostitutes, also has the text of the new prostitution law
    * Scathing criticism of the new prostituion law, by Doña Carmen, a support group for foreign prostitutes working in Germany (German)
    * Feministinnen gegen Prostitution, criticism of the new prostituion law from a feminist perspective
    * Bundesverband Sexuelle Dienstleistung e.V., association of brothel owners
    * Reports on human trafficking, by the BKA, in German
    * World Sex Guide reports on Germany, somewhat outdated.
    * Discussion forums on prostitution in Germany: 21orover.com (English), Römerforum (German), bw7.de (German)
    * Snopes Debunking the claim that "Women in Germany face the loss of unemployment benefits if they decline to accept work in brothels.".
    * Prostitution and the 2006 Soccer World Cup, from Der Spiegel, 28 November 2005


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## look

> In Spain prostitution is legal in buildings called puticlubs, but only citizens from spain are allowed to be prostitues.


From what I've read, most of the women who work in those clubs are from Eastern Europe and Latin America (illegally, it seems).


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## ampurdan

Yep, that's sadly true, Look. "Puticlub" is the informal name (from puta + club). They would call themselves "night clubs" or whatever. Prostitution is not a legally recognized job (of course it is not prosecuted anywhere, it's not a crime), but Spanish citizens can receive money for sex and say they work as masseurs/masseuses or any other legal profession and they will get the benefits. Illegal immigrants won't.


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## zebedee

My turn to put on the unstylish, floppy, needs cleaning, Moderator hat...

Much as I have been amused by the last couple of posts - have you considered copyrighting and selling them to an up-and-coming comedy duo? - may I remind you of the topic of this thread?

As you yourselves repeatedly insisted:
 



> *The purpose of this thread is to find out how different countries, in this case Germany, are faring after legalizing prostitution. Has women trafficking decreased? Have links to organized crime been cut?
> *


 
Shall we get back on track or shall we close this thread and open another one on "The Search for Love - at what cost?"


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## Everness

As usual, I see the light by watching a TV show. 

Last night I watched "Taxicab Confessions - Second Part" on HBO. There were two interviews that caught my attention. In one segment, 4 black young guys were interviewed. Two openly and proudly stated that they were pimps. They told the cabdriver/journalist how, for instance, they trained girls to give good blow jobs. Yes, of course they taught them using their own d*cks. One of them also stated that he b*ngs them 6 or 7 times a day (So much for the principle "Don't shit where you eat"). Another cabdriver/journalist interviewed a transsexual who got himself castrated many years ago. She said something interesting: that she's looking for love.  At that point she didn't know that she was part of an HBO documentary. So why would she lie?

So, in the light of these findings, here are my final reflections:

1. Never ever decriminalize prostitution. Germans should learn from Swedes on this one.

2. If the parents of these young girls who are recruited by pimps are still their legal guardians or involved in their lives they should go to jail.

3. Law enforcement should get a copy of the HBO documentary and send the four pimps to jail. The most interesting thing is that at the end of the documentary they appear to sign a consent to become part of the show. Define idiocy...

4. Here's a better idea: Pimps who recruit young girls should be executed on the spot (Of course, we'll do this out of love).


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## ampurdan

If our societies don't looked down on prostitutes as if they were doing some disgusting, pariah job, there wouldn't be any problem.


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## Fernando

Everness said:
			
		

> Feel free to call them whores too. As you may have already realized, we have many different words to describe prostitutes, actually 994 words. However, it's interesting that we don't have any words for guys who b*ng prostitutes. Oh, yes sorry... we call them customers...
> 
> As Sister luar wrote:



I do not know in English. In Spanish we have (at least) chaperos y putos.


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## Everness

ampurdan said:
			
		

> If our societies don't looked down on prostitutes as if they were doing some disgusting, pariah job, there wouldn't be any problem.



I never said that prostitutes were doing a disgusting job. Actually the pimps have trained these 14- or 15-year-old girls so well that they will give you the best oral sex you ever experienced. 

Again, the disgusting part isn't what they do, or to whom they do it, but who is doing it.


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## ampurdan

Ok, I agree with you: teenagers shouldn't have sex as a job, but not every single sex professional is a teenager... Or do I live in a fairy tale? You asked about legalizing protitution, not about allowing kids to perform sex with adults for money.


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## Fernando

To me is disgusting the very deed of people performing sex in exchange of money, regardless of his/her age.

Of course, if underages are involved is very far worse, but why should we be worried for underages? If their behaviour is not disgusting we should treat it just the same as we do when we find a 16-year girl serving in her father's restaurant.


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## Everness

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Or do I live in a fairy tale? You asked about legalizing protitution, not about allowing kids to perform sex with adults for money.



Child prostitution is growing exponentially in our cities. To make matters worse, younger and younger kids are being recruited as prostitutes. To think that child prostitution will cease to exist if prostitution is legalized is naive. There's a black market for anything and everything, e.g: betting, currency, watches, etc. Prostitution will not be an exception. However, legalizing prostitution will definitely keep underage kids out of brothels. Peor es nada...


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## ampurdan

Everness said:
			
		

> legalizing prostitution will definitely keep underage kids out of brothels.


 
Therefore, it would be a good thing to legalize protitution.


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## zebedee

Fernando said:
			
		

> I do not know in English. In Spanish we have (at least) chaperos y putos.


 
These are words for male prostitutes, not for the people who pay (male or female) prostitutes for their services.


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## ampurdan

zebedee said:
			
		

> These are words for male prostitutes, not for the people who pay (male or female) prostitutes for their services.


 
You're right. The standard word is "proxeneta", but pimps are usually called "chulos" or "macarras", although these words now have a very wider range of meaning...

EDIT - Sorry, I know... I have to read better what I am asked for...


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## Laia

zebedee said:
			
		

> These are words for male prostitutes, not for the people who pay (male or female) prostitutes for their services.


They are called "puteros"


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## ampurdan

Oops! Sorry, you're right. I have to read carefully before posting.


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## Everness

ampurdan said:
			
		

> Therefore, it would be a good thing to legalize protitution.



It has its pros and cons. On the one hand, legalizing prostitution will create a safer working environment for sex workers. For instance, the cops will give them a break and stop harrasing and throwing them into jail. They would work out of brothels, I assume. However, I'm not sure they will get a better deal when it comes to money. This is what worldsexguide.com in Germany says,

_If a customer refuses to pay after the act, the prostitute can't sue; if a prostitute doesn't deliver after being paid, the customer can sue. This interesting situation is a consequence of the fact that the contract between the prostitute and the customer is considered to be "sittenwidrig" (against good morals) and hence void. This does not follow from a specific law but is a consequence of the courts' interpretation of the term "sittenwidrig". _

Two thoughts come to my mind! First, so much for legality. Second, talk about being screwed twice in a row!

On the other hand, the legalization of prostitution sends the wrong message to impressionable young girls who are promised loads of money if they literally work their *sses off. I'm sure that right now a pimp in Germany must be telling a 13-year-old child the following: "See my dear. Prostitution isn't illegal anymore in our country. And if it's not illegal, it can't be bad either, right? So why don't you let your daddy teach you some tricks so you can make some money, have your nails done, and buy stuff your f*cking parents never cared to give you."


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## ampurdan

Even If such a contra legem jurisprudence existed in Germany, this Sittenwidrigkeit is not what people normally understand as legalizing prostitution.

On the other hand, when children has received an approppriate sexual education (both at home and school), 13-year-old girls may be more ready to be aware of what those pimps are asking for.

Anyway, I doubt that pimping for 13-year-old girls is so widespread as to say that "I'm sure that right now..." stuff. I think this is quite demagogic a speech.


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## cuchuflete

It's getting boring deleting posts that go farther and farther away from the supposed topic.

Thread closed.


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