# Has the doctor been?



## Cedric_

Two friends are talking. One says she's not very well:

- I have red spots all over my face.
- Has the doctor been?

Is the reply actually complete? Doesn't it require an object? Would you use such wording?


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## sound shift

The reply is complete and grammatically correct, but it means "Has the doctor visited you?", not "Have you been to see the doctor?", so the reply is an improbable one.


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## Andygc

Cedric_ said:


> Two friends are talking. One says she's not very well:
> 
> - I have red spots all over my face.
> - Has the doctor been?
> 
> Is the reply actually complete? Doesn't it require an object? Would you use such wording?


Yes, no, yes. It's normal, everyday English. It means "has the doctor come to your house to see you?" We use it all the time.
I had a leak. It's fixed because the plumber has been.
We've no post, has the postman been?
Hello Mum. Have the children been? (ie, have my children, your grandchildren, visited you?)


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## GandalfMB

I stand corrected. Please excuse me, Cedric. You too Andy and soundshift . I apologize.


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## sound shift

No need to apologise for a difference of opinion, Gandalf.


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## Cedric_

Now that you've deleted your post I have no way of knowing what you're sorry for, Gandalf. 

Thanks for your input. The sentence looked bare without an object to me. I now know it's correct.


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## Andygc

sound shift said:


> No need to apologise for a difference of opinion, Gandalf.


Indeed,  we can *all* learn here.


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## Herefordian

Compare "I have never been to Berlin".


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## Cedric_

What do you mean Herefordian?


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## mplsray

I would like to note, for the benefit of the original poster, that this particular use of _been_ is unknown in American English. As it originally did to you, this sentence seems to us to be missing something, such as _been here_ or _been to see you. _(In addition, a doctor making a house call is practically unknown, so that the sentence in this context would not even occur.)


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## Cedric_

Is a 'house call' an actual visit at the patient's house? Or do you mean 'a phone call'?


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## pob14

A _house call_ is - or was, when doctors actually made them - a visit to the patient's house.


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## JulianStuart

Herefordian said:


> Compare "I have never been to Berlin".





Cedric_ said:


> What do you mean Herefordian?



The WRF dictionary has the following entry.


> *be*(used in the perfect or past perfect tenses only) to pay a visit; go: have you been to Spain?


The use of be to mean "pay a visit" can be used "intransitively" as well as the more common form followed by "to X".  The former usage is restricted to BrE.  
Has the _doctor been_ yet? =Has the doctor paid a visit yet?  
Have_ you been_ to the doctor yet? = Have you paid a visit to the doctor yet?


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## Andygc

mplsray said:


> ... that this particular use of _been_ is unknown in American English.


That's interesting - see my post #7


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## Herefordian

Cedric_ said:


> What do you mean Herefordian?



As JulianStuart said, the past participle of "go" is often "been" - I've been to Paris / the hospital / the toilet.  It's when some kind of visit is implied.  It seems the Americans don't share this usage.


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## Hildy1

Americans often use the present perfect "I've been" to mean "I have gone", but it is followed by the place, as mplsray says in post 10. So it is usual to say "Has the doctor been here / there?" but not simply "Has the doctor been?"


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## Drink

Hildy1 said:


> Americans often use the present perfect "I've been" to mean "I have gone", but it is followed by the place, as mplsray says in post 10. So it is usual to say "Has the doctor been here / there?" but not simply "Has the doctor been?"



I beg to differ. Things like the following are _very_ common in America:
- "Did you hear about that new exhibit at the museum?"
- "Yes, have you been?"


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## Hildy1

Ah yes, Drink is right. in the sentence above "have you been?" works, because the place has just been mentioned before.


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## Lisboaestbon

Andygc said:


> Yes, no, yes. It's normal, everyday English. It means "has the doctor come to your house to see you?" We use it all the time.
> I had a leak. It's fixed because the plumber has been.
> We've no post, has the postman been?
> Hello Mum. Have the children been? (ie, have my children, your grandchildren, visited you?)



It means what some are suggesting here, but whether one should speak this way is another story. I never use it, and feel that it sounds retarded, wreaking of lack of education. (I am stating this in terms of how it impresses me, not as fact.) If memory serves me correctly, I find it more likely to be used by Brits, but I do hear the odd American use it.


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## Susan Y

Lisboaestbon said:


> I never use it, and feel that it sounds retarded, wreaking of lack of education. (I am stating this in terms of how it impresses me, not as fact.)



You are of course entitled to your opinion, but this construction is very common and natural in BE and used by people from all walks of life. It does not reek of anything!


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## boozer

Herefordian said:


> As JulianStuart said, the past participle of "go" is often "been"...


That is already a bit too much.  'Go' and 'be' are always different verbs and so are their forms. That one can be used instead of the other in certain contexts is another thing...  (My objection pertains exclusively to the grammar terminology employed)


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## Keith Bradford

<< Response to deleted post. >> 

I don't live in Britain now, but when I was of an age to catch German measles, I certainly had a house visit from our GP. His response: "Hm, ha, hm, ha... keep him in bed for a week." I'm sure my mother would have explained: "Our Keith's got the measles. *The doctor's been*, and says to keep him in bed." Perfectly standard UK usage.


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## Andygc

Lisboaestbon said:


> It means what some are suggesting here, but whether one should speak this way is another story. I never use it, and feel that it sounds retarded, wreaking of lack of education. (I am stating this in terms of how it impresses me, not as fact.) If memory serves me correctly, I find it more likely to be used by Brits, but I do hear the odd American use it.


Would those be odd Americans as in rather strange or weird, or would they be odd as in only one or two? Should we speak in this way? Well, it's been around a while. Here's some examples from the OED's collection





> 1844   Dickens _Martin Chuzzlewit_ xlvii. 544   Mr. Nadgett wanted to see you..but I told him you were tired... I saw him passing through the street this morning, very early; but he hasn't been again.
> 1870   W. Morris _Earthly Paradise_ iii. 489   ‘The gabbling crone Thorhalla has just been,’ Said Ospak, ‘And whom think you she has seen?’
> 1924   H. Walpole _Old Ladies_ v. 125   Of course it is cold, isn't it, but I thought that, being in bed, he might not notice it. Has the doctor been to-day!


I use it all the time, and I had A's for English Language  and English Literature then went on to a degree and several postgraduate qualifications, so I suppose I'm educated. I have noticed that I have slowed down a little as I have got older,  but I think "retarded" is a bit strong.

I can also use a dictionary: see wreak, reek and objectionable.


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## biker_pl

It just so happens that I'm watching the programme "Peppa Pig" (I believe it's British production) and I just heard Mommy Pig say this to Peppa: "The tooth fairy has been and left you a coin". It doesn't sound retarted to me.


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## Herefordian

boozer said:


> That is already a bit too much.  'Go' and 'be' are always different verbs and so are their forms. That one can be used instead of the other in certain contexts is another thing...  (My objection pertains exclusively to the grammar terminology employed)



That's nit-picking at best.  And in that case, what do you say about 'went' as the simple past of go?  Would you class that as the same verb?


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## Andygc

Herefordian said:


> That's nit-picking at best.  And in that case, what do you say about 'went' as the simple past of go?  Would you class that as the same verb?


Hardly nit-picking, they are different verbs. Given that went is the simple past of to go, I'd be surprised if you didn't think they were inflections of the same verb, just as been is an inflection of to be.


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## boozer

Herefordian said:


> That's nit-picking at best.


Apologies, that was never my intention. 'Go' and 'went' are forms of the same verb...


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## Sparky Malarky

Drink said:


> I beg to differ. Things like the following are _very_ common in America:
> - "Did you hear about that new exhibit at the museum?"
> - "Yes, have you been?"



I agree with this.  However, I have never heard an American speaker ask "Has the doctor been?"  We might ask "Has the doctor been *by*?" or something similar.  We would only say "Have you been?" in a very specific context, like the one in this example.  

The issue of house calls is outside the scope of this discussion, but I quite agree that they're not likely to happen in the US, no matter how lovely or how logical that might be.


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## Herefordian

'Went' was originally the past tense of 'to wend', as in 'to wend one's way'.  It has only been settled as the past of 'go' for a few centuries.

So if we accept 'went' as an organic form of 'go', why not accept 'been'?  It's been around for as long.



			
				Online Etym. Dict.  said:
			
		

> went (v.)
> past tense of go; originally the strong past tense and past participle of wend (v.). The original past tense forms of_wend_ were _wende_, _wended_, but variants _wente_, _went_ developed from c.1200 and these then began to replace older past tenses of go. By c.1500 they were fully employed in that function, and _wend_ was given a new past tense form,_wended_.



And under 'go'



> The Old English past tense was _eode_, of uncertain origin but evidently once a different word (perhaps connected to Gothic _iddja_); it was replaced 1400s by _went_, formerly past tense of _wenden_ "to direct one's way" (see wend). In northern England and Scotland, however, _eode_ tended to be replaced by _gaed_, a construction based on _go_. In modern English, only _be_ and _go_ take their past tenses from entirely different verbs.


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## Drink

Herefordian said:


> So if we accept 'went' as an organic form of 'go', why not accept 'been'?  It's been around for as long.



It's "been around" for as long, but most certainly not as the past tense of "go".


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## JamesM

Drink said:


> I beg to differ. Things like the following are _very_ common in America:
> - "Did you hear about that new exhibit at the museum?"
> - "Yes, have you been?"



I think this is a little different.  I would have no trouble saying this or hearing it, but it would odd to hear "Has the plumber been?", in my experience, or "Has the mailman been?"  I also wouldn't say "Yes, I've been" in general conversation unless someone asked me "Have you been?"  I think "have you been?" is a special case.  

"Been" is usually followed by "by / around / over / here / to the house".  The bare form with "been" to mean "visited" is rare, in my opinion, in American English.


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## Drink

JamesM said:


> I think this is a little different.  I would have no trouble saying this or hearing it, but it would odd to hear "Has the plumber been?", in my experience, or "Has the mailman been?"  I also wouldn't say "Yes, I've been" in general conversation unless someone asked me "Have you been?"  I think "have you been?" is a special case.
> 
> "Been" is usually followed by "by / around / over / here / to the house".  The bare form with "been" to mean "visited" is rare, in my opinion, in American English.



I mostly agree that "been" usually requires a place, but I don't know why you wouldn't say "Yes, I've been." as an answer to "Have you been?"


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## JulianStuart

Drink said:


> I mostly agree that "been" usually requires a place, but I don't know why you wouldn't say "Yes, I've been." as an answer to "Have you been?"



The "normal" or "common to both AmE and BrE" version of "been" that you describe means the "I went and came back" (or "I have gone there and returned").

The "been" in the original question is not used in AmE but is common in BrE and means the reverse "He has come and gone away". - There's even an emphatic extension of it:
"He's been and gone" - sometimes used to express that he was missed:  "Has the postman come yet? I need to give him something." "Sorry dear, you missed him, he's been and gone".

How this been arose and occurs only in BrE is an intriguing question but not one of "correct" or "incorrect" any more than the AmE "visit with" (unknown in BrE)  vs BrE simply "visit".


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## JamesM

Drink said:


> I mostly agree that "been" usually requires a place, but I don't know why you wouldn't say "Yes, I've been." as an answer to "Have you been?"



I said I would.


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## JamesM

JulianStuart said:


> How this been arose and occurs only in BrE is an intriguing question but not one of "correct" or "incorrect" any more than the AmE "visit with" (unknown in BrE)  vs BrE simply "visit".



Oh, absolutely!  It's just a difference, not a "better than / worse than" or "correct / incorrect" issue.


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## Drink

JamesM said:


> I said I would.



Oops, my mistake.


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## Myridon

Where I'm from, "Have you been?" with no elaborate context means "Have you eliminated bodily wastes?" - In other words, the default place is "the toilet."


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## Andygc

Herefordian said:


> So if we accept 'went' as an organic form of 'go', why not accept 'been'?  It's been around for as long


Mostly because it doesn't mean "went" or "gone". "Has the doctor been?" does not include in its meaning the concept of "go". As it is a part of "to be" it's a stative verb, not an active one. The meaning is "has the doctor had the state of being present in the company of the person who is ill?" Similarly with the postman and the plumber - in the state of being in a position to put letters through the letterbox/in the state of being in the right place to fix my leaking tap. In all cases the person concerned has to come or go (or both), but the "been" does nof refer to those actions. 

We also have that quintessentially English conversation:
Has the doctor been?
Oh yes, he's been and gone.

I suppose you'll have that mean "Oh yes, he's gone and gone."


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## JamesM

Myridon said:


> Where I'm from, "Have you been?" with no elaborate context means "Have you eliminated bodily wastes?" - In other words, the default place is "the toilet."



  Good point.  That's true for me as well, particularly if an adult is speaking to a child.


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## wandle

There we see an interesting coincidence of linguistic meaning, euphemism and childish terminology all together in one usage on both sides of the pond.


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## biker_pl

I take it "Have you been?" meaning "Have you been to the toilet?" is not common in BrE. Am I right?


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## Herefordian

Andygc said:
			
		

> Mostly because it doesn't mean "went" or "gone".



True.


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## Herefordian

boozer said:


> Apologies, that was never my intention. 'Go' and 'went' are forms of the same verb...



Sorry, boozer, I got a bit prickly there.


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## wandle

biker_pl said:


> I take it "Have you been?" meaning "Have you been to the toilet?" is not common in BrE. Am I right?


I would say it is very common here.

The present perfect tense of the verb 'to be' does not just express the idea of 'having gone' somewhere.
On the one hand, it includes the sense of making a visit. 
(_Have you been to the US?_ asks whether you have gone there on a visit).

On the other hand, it is neutral as between 'go' and 'come': it can express either. 
(_'Has the postman been?'_ asks whether the postman has come to the house where the speaker is.)

A related euphemism for going to the toilet is '_Have you paid a visit?_' 

As with the question _'Have you been?'_ the sentence is incomplete in the sense that a destination would normally be mentioned: but that is where the euphemism comes in. We have to supply in our minds the place to which the visit is paid.


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