# We hope that the project move forward... (imperative)



## Gamen

Is it possible to use the imperative form (third person without "s") in this example:

We fervently hope that the project *move forward!

*I wait for your comments.

Thank you.


----------



## wanderingk

Nope, you need the "s". We hope that the project moves forward.

You could also say something like "Let's move this project forward," which is the closest that English gets to an imperative for "we."


----------



## Jesusoulz

Imperative form only works for second person, because you need to be addressing the entity you're giving orders to. So, to use imperative you'd need to be talking _to_ the project, as in:

"Move forward, project!"

...and some people may think you're weird because you're bossing around a project.


----------



## srb62

Gamen said:


> Is it possible to use the imperative form (third person without "s") in this example:
> 
> We fervently hope that the project *move forward!
> 
> *I wait for your comments.
> 
> Thank you.



This would not be an imperative but a subjunctive, I think.
However, I don't know if historically English used the subjunctive form in a clause following 'to hope' --- maybe someone can tell us?
I think Spanish does use it while French doesn't.


----------



## Gamen

Ok srb62. English, as opposed to French, Spanish or Italian for instance, does not demand the subjuntive in a sentence headed with "hope".

On the other hand and according to what I've been studying, sometimes the use of the imperative (or the  verb form without "s" for the third person that it is where the  imperative is noticed) depends on the type of construction.
A construction like* "It is vital that the project move foward"* can take the imperative (although it is optional).

Anyway, the  aim of my initial query was to know if we can "transform" a sentence  into imperative whenever we need to express this modality of the  statement. In this sense, according to our communicative intention, we  could say either *"It is vital that the project moves foward"* or *"It is vital that the project move foward".

*For instance, we also can say:*

It is necessary that he continue...or it is necessary that he continues...
The  experiment requires that she respond to all the questions... or the  experiment requires that she responds to all the questions...
They recommend that he do the whole task.. or They recommend that he does the whole task...*

So, specifically my inquiry is: Can we follow this criterion also in cases where possible (as those of the above in bold) if we want to express an imperative mode in English?


----------



## Peterdg

Hola Gamen,

srb62 tiene razón; no es el imperativo sino el subjuntivo en inglés.

Además, en francés (como en inglés) tampoco utilizan el subjuntivo después de "esperar": "Espero que venga" = "J'espère qu'il vient" y no "*J'espère qu'il vienne".

No soy especialista del uso del subjuntivo en inglés ya que utilizo el tipo de inglés de Inglaterra donde el uso del subjuntivo está casi extinto. (salvo en algunas construcciones como "if I were" etc.)


----------



## Gamen

You all are right, the sentence with hope is not imperative but subjunctive (desiderative). It happens that in Spanish the subjunctive and the imperative present the same form, hence my confusion.

It is also true that French, thinking it well, does not use the subjunctive after "esperer" but the future of the indicative: J'espere qu'il viendra, but Spanish and Italian do use it in this case.

But my inquiry in this English-Spanish forum was if I could use the subjunctive in the sentences indicated previously:

*"It is vital that the project moves foward"* *or* *"It is vital that the project move foward"*
*It is necessary that he continue...or it is necessary that he continues...
The  experiment requires that she respond to all the questions... or the   experiment requires that she responds to all the questions...
They recommend that he do the whole task.. or They recommend that he does the whole task...*


----------



## Jesusoulz

You're right to use the subjunctive in the sentences you provide from post 5 and on (as stated here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_subjunctive). However, I don't think you can use it in a sentence with _to hope_ as its verb. Can anyone prove me wrong, please?


----------



## picopegajoso

Jesusoulz said:


> You're right to use the subjunctive in the sentences you provide from post 5 and on (as stated here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_subjunctive). However, I don't think you can use it in a sentence with _to hope_ as its verb. Can anyone prove me wrong, please?



Hello, Jeusoulz:

No one can prove you wrong. 

Clauses following the verb *hope *will not be in the subjunctive. 

However, clauses following the verb *wish *will be in the subjunctive. For instance:
_I wish (that) Jane *were *here. 
_
Gamen provided some good examples of constructions that do require the subjunctive. 

However, it's a more common, at least in everyday speech here in the US, to use constructions with the infinitive. For example:

It is vital for the project *to move* forward.
It is necessary for him *to continue*.
The experiment requires her *to respond* to all the questions.


----------



## RicardoElAbogado

Gamen said:


> *"It is vital that the project moves foward" * *or* *"It is vital that the project move foward" *
> *It is necessary that he continue * *...or it is necessary that he continues... **
> The  experiment requires that she respond to all the questions ** ... or the   experiment requires that she responds to all the questions... **
> They recommend that he do the whole task **.. or They recommend that he does the whole task... *



Additional comments. Yes, we're talking about the subjunctive, and this construction is one of the few areas where it still exists in English.

As to the imperative existing in the second person only, there is also "Let's [verb in infinitive form]" which is considered the imperative in the first person plural in English. So "Let's go" or Let's eat" are considered imperatives.


----------



## mmbata

Gamen said:


> Is it possible to use the imperative form (third person without "s") in this example:
> 
> We fervently hope that the project *move forward!
> 
> *I wait for your comments.
> 
> Thank you.



Hi,
Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Usually when you use the verbs that suggest imperative like need/want/demand... you should take the subjunctive and '_the project_' is the object in the sentence, not the subject:
We need/want/demand/wish (that) the project *move* forward!

or infinitive with 'to':
We need/want/demand/wish the project *to move* forward!

With the verb 'hope' I think you should use simple present tense:
We hope that the project *moves* forward!

or to be + infinitive in more demanding form:
We hope that the project *is to move* forward!


Regards


----------



## Gamen

Thank you all of you for your comments and remarks.
I agree with mmbata, but just one thing: If we use the verb "to want" in English, we necessarily (or rather mandatorily/ complusorily)) have to add "to" to the verb. So, we have to say: *I want the proyect TO MOVE FORWARD.* NOT possible: I want the project move forward
I think the same happens with "to need":* I need the project TO MOVE FORWARD.*

Let's wait for comments from natives.
Thank you!


----------



## L'Inconnu

srb62 said:


> This would not be an imperative but a subjunctive, I think.I think Spanish does use it while French doesn't.



The French usually use the future after 'I hope that...'


----------



## L'Inconnu

Gamen said:


> Ok srb62. English, as opposed to French, Spanish or Italian for instance, does not demand the subjuntive in a sentence headed with "hope".


The French normally use the future after 'I hope that...' 'J'espère qu'il _va_ venir'





Gamen said:


> Anyway, the  aim of my initial query was to know if we can "transform" a sentence  into imperative the_ subjunctive_ whenever we need to express this modality of the  statement. In this sense, according to our communicative intention, we  could say either *"It is vital that the project moves foward"* or *"It is vital that the project move foward".*


We sometimes do this to be more emphatic. Likewise for the  French, who normally use infinitives to avoid the subjunctive. Your example would be used in a formal register. Even so, few English speakers would notice the difference, and, if they did, it would be perceived as a difference in style. In other words, you could also use the present indicative and few people would even be the wiser. To convey a sense of greater urgency, you would practically have to raise your voice, or maybe even bang your fist on the podium.

"It is vital that the Government _remains_ at the heart of Europe in order to protect the single market"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...pe-in-order-to-protect-the-single-market.html


----------



## L'Inconnu

Peterdg said:


> (salvo en algunas construcciones como "if I were" etc.)


"Now, if I _was_ the president, I would..." (possible, albeit unlikely)
"Now, if I _were_ you, I would...(impossible. Purely hypothetical)


----------



## RicardoElAbogado

L'Inconnu said:


> "Now, if I _was_ the president, I would..." (possible, albeit unlikely)
> "Now, if I _were_ you, I would...(impossible. Purely hypothetical)



I don't agree that "if I was president" is grammatically correct English. I do agree that people say things like that all the time, even educated speakers (and I do too), but when they do, they mean (so far as I can tell), the same exact thing as "If I were ...."  I therefore don't agree there is any change in meaning between the two statements, at least in AmEng.

If you analyze the "was" statement, you will see that it is *not* possible. You never in the past were president. (If you were and if "was" were correct, you would at least say "If I was still president.") But since the past is past and no one can change it, "if I was president" can not mean possible, albeit unlikely.


----------



## Gamen

Do natives agree with what I said in post 12?


----------



## RicardoElAbogado

Gamen said:


> *I want the proyect TO MOVE FORWARD.*   NOT possible: I want the project move forward
> I think the same happens with "to need":* I need the project TO MOVE FORWARD. *



Except that you lapsed into Spanish spelling a little bit on *project*.


----------



## Gamen

Returning to my first example, I think we also can use the subjuctive without "s" for the third person in these cases:
*All of us wish that the project move forward*
*That the project move forward is a wish (desire) of all of us.
*I feel a strong need or "grammatical obligation" to have to use the subjuntive after the "that" in these examples.
Am I right?


----------



## picopegajoso

Gamen said:


> Thank you all of you for your comments and remarks.
> I agree with mmbata, but just one thing: If we use the verb "to want" in English, we necessarily (or rather mandatorily/ complusorily)) have to add "to" to the verb. So, we have to say: *I want the proyect TO MOVE FORWARD.* NOT possible: I want the project move forward
> I think the same happens with "to need":* I need the project TO MOVE FORWARD.*
> 
> Let's wait for comments from natives.
> Thank you!



You're correct, Gamen. Those constructions use the infinitive.


----------



## picopegajoso

L'Inconnu said:


> "Now, if I _was_ the president, I would..." (possible, albeit unlikely)
> "Now, if I _were_ you, I would...(impossible. Purely hypothetical)



It's very common, especially a form of "to be" is used in the first clause of these constructions, for someone to say "If I *was* you/the president/etc...." In terms of prescriptive grammar, though, it's incorrect.

On the other hand, there are certain, similar instances when that phrasing is grammatically correct. Consider the following situation:

Last night, Heather threw a party. Betty went to the party, and so did Vanessa. However, Vanessa did not see Betty at the party.

Today, Heather tells Vanessa that Betty had a great time at the party. Vanessa is confused - she didn't _see _Betty at the party.

Vanessa asks Heather, "If Betty *was *​at the party, why didn't I see her?"


----------



## Gamen

I wait for natives' confirmation regarding my post 19.
Thank you!


----------



## picopegajoso

Gamen said:


> Returning to my first example, I think we also can use the subjuctive without "s" for the third person in these cases:
> *All of us wish that the project move forward*
> *That the project move forward is a wish (desire) of all of us.
> *I feel a strong need or "grammatical obligation" to have to use the subjuntive after the "that" in these examples.
> Am I right?



The sentences are grammatically correct.

However, it's much more common the following structures:
All of us* wish the that project would move *forward*. 
*All of us *wish the project to move *forward*.

*The project's progress* is something (that) we all desire/wish for. 
*


----------



## L'Inconnu

RicardoElAbogado said:


> If you analyze the "was" statement, you will see that it is *not* possible. You never in the past were president. (If you were and if "was" were correct, you would at least say "If I was still president.") But since the past is past and no one can change it, "if I was president" can not mean possible, albeit unlikely.



Then, you don't entertain the remote possibility that I may one day get elected. Anyway, some people argue that there is a practical difference between 'were' and 'was' in 'If' clauses. Although, I don't get the impression that many American's notice any difference. 

“Frank’s not here yet, but if he _*was*_, that blueberry pie would be gone.”
“I wish I _*were*_ a camel; I’d never be thirsty.”

http://www.grammar.net/iwishiwere


----------



## L'Inconnu

Gamen said:


> If we use the verb "to want" in English, we necessarily (or rather mandatorily/ complusorily)) have to add "to" to the verb. So, we have to say: *I want the proyect TO MOVE FORWARD.* NOT possible: I want the project move forward
> I think the same happens with "to need":* I need the project TO MOVE FORWARD.*



The subjunctive would sound rather odd in this case. The parallel with French is intriguing. They don't normally use the subjunctive after 'I want', but they may use the subjunctive after 'I would like', which we sometimes do in English. "I would like that the project be moved forward". Getting back to your example, you could put the 'to' in front of the first verb.

"I want _to_ move the project forward"
"I need _to_ move the project forward"


----------



## L'Inconnu

Gamen said:


> * All of us wish (that) the project (were) moved forward*
> *That the project (were) moved forward is a wish (desire) of all of us have.
> *I feel a strong need or "grammatical obligation" to have to use the subjuntive after the "that" in these examples.
> Am I right?



Yes and no. Yes, we use the subjunctive. No, we don't use the present subjunctive. Instead, we use the past subjunctive. The past subjunctive is basically using the preterit to express a wish, to speculate about possiblities, or to make a suggestion.  It's closest Spanish equivalent is the imperfecto de subjuntivo, but it may also correspond to cases where the presente de subjuntivo is employed. 

It's high time we _moved_ into another apartment.


----------



## L'Inconnu

Anyway, the key is to learn to use modals_: will_, _shall_, _can_ and _may, _and their corresponding past forms _would_, _should_, _could_ and _might_. Whether or not some grammatician defines them as the subjunctive isn't really important. What matters is that they *FUNCTION *like the subjunctive of Spanish. English speakers can express wishes, requests, demands, requirements, conditions, uncertainty, and personal reactions to the unexpected. We just do it simply and more concisely than Spanish speakers do.


----------



## Gamen

Ok. I realized that every "group of verbs" demand certain types of structures and we cannot generalize.

I can say "I desire that he COME", but if we use "to wish" the structure is different, that is, "I wish he WOULD COME".
"To hope" does not accept the subjuntive. I understand that in English the verbs that demand the use of the subjunctive are basically those whose function is to force or urge someone to do something like request, require, recommend, insist, suggest, demand, urge, propose, beg, ask, etc.

Thank you all for your help to clear this matter up!


----------

