# Words that change according to gender?



## LouisaB

Hi, everyone,

I'm afraid I speak no Russian at all, but am hoping someone may be willing to help me with a language question for my next novel.

Context: My novel is set in 1855 during the Crimean War, and my hero has intercepted a letter from spymaster Ignatiev within Sevastopol to a spy in Balaklava. The content of the letter is not vital and I can change it to fit any answers I get, but Ignatiev is basically thanking the mysterious correspondent for information received and asking him/her to let him know if he hears of any further diving equipment being brought into the port.

The question is this. I know Russian nouns have masculine, feminine or neutral genders, but are there any words (either nouns or adjectives) which change according to the gender of the person under discussion? For instance, in English we use 'blond' to describe a male and 'blonde' to describe a female - are there any words like this in Russian?

What I would like to achieve is for my hero (whose Russian is not good) to read this letter without realizing the recipient is female - but when an expert Russian speaker reads the letter he knows at once it was written to a woman. Are there any words that could help me here? I can phrase the letter to fit in almost any word that could be helpful.

I apologize for my ignorance and realize this is probably a very stupid question, but would be very grateful for any suggestions.

Thank you for your patience!

Louisa


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## WordOrder

Mmm... The thing is that if in Russian a noun describes a woman it has a form of feminine gender. And it's clear, who the describable person is. However, sometimes a masculine noun does describe both a male and a female. Among the nouns, the ones which describe a person's occupation. For example, _повар_, _учитель_, _парикмахер_, etc. Using those nouns obscures a person's gender, and without a further context it becomes unclear for anybody, no matter how good at Russian a listener is.

I think you should find the profession which is described by a word of a masculine form for men only and for women it is described by a different word. For example, _фельдшер_ (male nurse) and _медсестра_ (female nurse). For a foreign speaker not versed in Russian, the person's gender won't be obvious if the word _фельдшер_ is used.


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## Maroseika

WordOrder said:


> I think you should find the profession which is described by a word of a masculine form for men only and for women it is described by a different word. For example, _фельдшер_ (male nurse) and _медсестра_ (female nurse). For a foreign speaker not versed in Russian, the person's gender won't be obvious if the word _фельдшер_ is used.


But the task is to make gender evident for a Russian native, isn't it? How this native can guess the recipient is a woman only knowing the person is фельдшер?
I'm afraid if Ignatyev addressed his spy on 'you' (rather than 'thou'), even a Russian native would not guess adressee's gender.



LouisaB said:


> I know Russian nouns have masculine, feminine or neutral genders, but are there any words (either nouns or adjectives) which change according to the gender of the person under discussion? For instance, in English we use 'blond' to describe a male and 'blonde' to describe a female - are there any words like this in Russian?


Actually the verbs in the Past Tense are also gender-marked if used in Singular, but this is too evident. Besides, it presumes Ignatyev addressing his agent on 'thou', meaning their big closeness or big social distance between them.
But you might use this _tuteo _, explaining that your hero did not know about you/thou difference in Russian, and Ignatyev used a verb in the Past. His agent might be his relative or maybe a common woman.

One more option is the word платье (dress, cloth). Nowadays it is used only in the sense of female dress, but that time in many cases it could be also applied to the men's cloth. You may use this word in such a context that your hero mistakenly thought it was used as the latter, while for a Russian native it would be evident the female's one was meant. For example he might mention some rare detail of the dress, used only by women, or a feature pertinent only to female dress, say, ваше шуршащее платье (your rustling dress) or шорох вашего платья (rustle of your dress).


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## LouisaB

Thank you very much for responding, WordOrder. I'm afraid Maroseika is right, and I need a word which will later 'give away' the gender, but you have set me thinking. Is there a noun for a type of person which is otherwise identical, but ends in a consonant if male and an 'a' if female? 

But thank you too, Maroseika - I think your suggestion is brilliant. I can make the letter come from the spy's lover rather than Ignatyev, in which case 'ti' rather than 'vi' would naturally be used. My hero would never have seen Russian written in the 'thou' address, so he could easily miss something that would only apply in those circumstances.

If I do this, does this mean all the verbs used in past tense would be gender-marked according to the person who is 'doing' the verb? For instance, if the letter said 'You have done very well with your information', would the verb used for 'have done' be different because the person who has done it is female? Please could you be very kind and give me an example I might use?

I am so sorry not to be offering suggestions and translations myself, which I know is the spirit of 'Word Reference', but it is difficult when one does not know the language at all!

Thank you so much for your help, which is very much appreciated.


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## Maroseika

LouisaB said:


> Is there a noun for a type of person which is otherwise identical, but ends in a consonant if male and an 'a' if female?


There is a lot of them, actually the most part of the nouns meaning actors are as such:
шпион - шпионка (spy)
повар - повариха (cook)
крестьянин - крестьянка (peasant)
But, for example информатор (informer) for both. However such ambi-gender words are typical rather for the modern language than to the one of the 19 century.




> I can make the letter come from the spy's lover rather than Ignatyev, in which case 'ti' rather than 'vi' would naturally be used. My hero would never have seen Russian written in the 'thou' address, so he could easily miss something that would only apply in those circumstances.


But the problem is that the first and third person verbs are also gender-marked in the Past Singular, so anyone knowing the basic Russian knows about this feature - oterwsie he would hardly build any Russian phrase.



> If I do this, does this mean all the verbs used in past tense would be gender-marked according to the person who is 'doing' the verb? For instance, if the letter said 'You have done very well with your information', would the verb used for 'have done' be different because the person who has done it is female?



Yes, it will:
Ты нам очень помогла (female) / помог (male) своей информацией.

However there are ways to avoid such 'gender' phrases, and actually it will be even more natural in such situation:
Your information was very usefull.
Your information helped us a lot.
Your cooperation with the information was great.
Etc...


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## LouisaB

Thank you again, Maroseika. It is a great help that your English is so good!



Maroseika said:


> There is a lot of them, actually the most part of the nouns meaning actors are as such:
> шпион - шпионка (spy)
> повар - повариха (cook)
> крестьянин - крестьянка (peasant)
> But, for example информатор (informer) for both. However such ambi-gender words are typical rather for the modern language than to the one of the 19 century.



This is very interesting. My worry, however, is that any word ending 'ка' might sound too obviously feminine for even my hero to miss.



Maroseika said:


> But the problem is that the first and third person verbs are also gender-marked in the Past Singular, so anyone knowing the basic Russian knows about this feature - oterwsie he would hardly build any Russian phrase.



Oh dear. Then I had better not do this.



Maroseika said:


> Yes, it will:
> Ты нам очень помогла (female) / помог (male) своей информацией.



Thank you. But from what you say above, does that mean that my hero would know this feature and would be unlikely to miss the gender-marking? If so, I had better not use it.



Maroseika said:


> However there are ways to avoid such 'gender' phrases, and actually it will be even more natural in such situation:
> Your information was very usefull.
> Your information helped us a lot.
> Your cooperation with the information was great.
> Etc...



These do indeed seem more natural, but if they avoid gender, then would it be possible for my 'expert' to work out from this that it was a woman being addressed?

It begins to look as if what I am asking is impossible. Please don't worry if it is - that is exactly why I asked. I do not want to write something in my book that is not credible.

Thank you again very much for your help.

Louisa


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## ({[|]})

Maroseika said:


> I'm afraid if Ignatyev addressed his spy on 'you' (rather than 'thou'), even a Russian native would not guess adressee's gender.


Maroseika, there's always a way out! Louisa could use quoting in the letter; and also it's possible to use some tricky plays with the meanings of words and set expressions.

For example:


> Об агентах был разговор. Андротьев заметил, "оказалось, нашему человеку в Балаклаве удалось добыть информацию, полезную информацию; которая, однако, может заплесневеть, как сыр; а посему ей стоит остаться чуточку дольше — нам надо разыскать хорошие погреба".
> 
> Андротьев, конечно, выражается в своей привычной манере; тем не менее, он прав, и мы должны держать руку на пульсе.


The correct interpretation is (well, as much correct as my English is):


> There was a talk about our spies. Androtiev said, "it turned out that our agent in Balaklava managed to gather information, useful information; that, nevertheless, may grow mouldly, like a piece of cheese; so that she should remain there a bit more — we have to invent a good cellar for it"
> 
> Androtiev, of course, talks in his usual manner; still, he's right, it is our necessity to watch the ever changing situation very closely, and not to lag behind.


Someone, not really versed in Russian, but able to read something, especially military letters, might come to this, after much thought:


> There was a talk about our spies. Androtiev said, "it turned out that our man in Balaklava managed to gather information, useful information;  that, nevertheless, may grow mouldly, like a piece of cheese; and so the information has to stay with us a bit more, so that we could find many good magazines"
> 
> Androtiev, of course, talks in his usual manner; still, he's right, we must be attentive.


So! 

I'm assuming, the interceptor is an English speaking person. So, 1) he knows that "человек" is often translated as "man" from Russian, but in reality the word might include women as well. The use of "наш человек" when addressing women is not a usual feature in Russian, but it's correct and especillay likely in political letters. Also, 2) the word "погреб" basically means "a cellar"; but in military contexts, as I just realised, it might mean "magazines" as well, and I guess, the interceptor might be more familiar with military words. 3), "держать руку на пульсе" is an idiom, it's not that easy to understand it!

As for cloths, I'm afraid, I see no way for cloths to appear in a military letter, not romantic letter. At least, no natural way.


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## Maroseika

LouisaB said:


> This is very interesting. My worry, however, is that any word ending 'ка' might sound too obviously feminine for even my hero to miss.
> does that mean that my hero would know this feature and would be unlikely to miss the gender-marking? If so, I had better not use it.


Yes, I think so (unless he speaks Russian like "My go Moscow no time" instead of "I've never been to Moscow").



> These do indeed seem more natural, but if they avoid gender, then would it be possible for my 'expert' to work out from this that it was a woman being addressed?


I'm afraid, it is impossible to achieve your aim following grammatical way. But using ambivalent words (like платье - cloth) might help.


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## Maroseika

({[|]});12219252 said:
			
		

> Maroseika, there's always a way out! Louisa could use quoting in the letter; and also it's possible to use some tricky plays with the meanings of words and set expressions.


Well, maybe a tricky way out really can be found, but exactly yours doesn't seem to me workable. I can hardly imagine a foreigner knowing Russian well enough to understand such complicated phrases, but still unable to notice that  information cannot "remain anywhere for a while", no matter the language.
By the way держать руку на пульсе and even информация are anachronisms (информация is fixed in the National Corpus only twice before 1860).


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## LilianaB

I think a Russian spy woman would write like a man, calling herself something like an agent - masculine, or even by a code, or a cryptonym. I watched a lot of war movies. Past tense verbs are usually omitted in spy-like writing, and the language is reduced, so I don't think one can really find out the sex of  a person from a Russian spy letter.


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## ({[|]})

Maroseika said:


> Well, maybe a tricky way out really can be found, but exactly yours doesn't seem to me workable.] I can hardly imagine a foreigner knowing Russian well enough to understand such complicated phrases, but still unable to notice that  information cannot "remain anywhere for a while", no matter the language.


In fact it can, just not in this context: "наши сведения остаются с нами" — "our information is still with us". Even the perfective verb "остаться" might in fact be used this way, only less likely.


> By the way держать руку на пульсе and even информация are anachronisms (информация is fixed in the National Corpus only twice before 1860).


This is indeed a point, and my mistake (I should have thought that the word "информация" is used mainly in maths and computer contexts, so it must be relatively  new). Still, I think the right way is to use quoting, where the spy might be addressed as "она" by someone else in such a way, that a native Russian easily understands who is "она", and the interceptor fails to do so, thinking that it is an inanimate thing.


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## Maroseika

[QUOTE='({[|]});12219367'"наши сведения остаются с нами"  [/QUOTE]
I'm afraid I cannot understand the sense of this phrase.



> Still, I think the right way is to use quoting, where the spy might be addressed as "она" by someone else in such a way, that a native Russian easily understands who is "она", and the interceptor fails to do so, thinking that it is an inanimate thing.


It might work with Masc. Acc. (animated/unanimated), but the spy is feminine...

Maybe try the word особа (person). This word can mean as men, as women, but even when implemented to men it matchs with 'she'. If особа (person) and шпион, осведомитель (spy) are used in close vicinity in the text, it may be hard to notice when она - особа (she - person) changes in она - осведомитель (she - spy).


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## LilianaB

My personal opinion is that if you can judge the sex of a person by their writing style, they would not be real spies and the novel would lose the authenticity or reliability aspect. Spy language uses a lot of passive and impersonal constructions.


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## Maroseika

LilianaB said:


> My personal opinion is that if you can judge the sex of a person by their writing style, they would not be real spies and the novel would lose the authenticity or reliability aspect. Spy language uses a lot of passive and impersonal constructions.


If the spies never blundered, detective authors would starve to death.
Besides, as far as I udnerstand, Ignatyev was not going to conceal the sex of his informer.


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## LouisaB

Thank you all so much for a fascinating discussion.



LilianaB said:


> I think a Russian spy woman would write like a man, calling herself something like an agent - masculine, or even by a code, or a cryptonym. I watched a lot of war movies. Past tense verbs are usually omitted in spy-like writing, and the language is reduced, so I don't think one can really find out the sex of  a person from a Russian spy letter.



Liliana, I think perhaps I haven't been very clear. It is not the woman who is writing the letter, but the woman who is receiving it.

I should also reiterate that this is 1855, and there is no such thing as 'spy-like writing'. Espionage as we know it today was then in its infancy, and I have studied letters written in 1854 and 1855 from those engaged in 'army intelligence' at this time. They are formal and courteous, without any of the cryptic tricks we have grown familiar with in Hollywood movies. Security too was very basic - civilians, for instance, were able to walk right into the Allied trenches to have a look round, without so much as being asked their names. It is a different world, and as a historical novelist it is my job to be authentic to that world.

I do, however, quite appreciate the point that the letter would not deliberately include information helpful to the other side. It is for this reason it is not addressed by name - although, to be honest, it probably would have been!

Maroseika and '({[|]}, thank you both so much for your very learned and hlepful discussion. I am definitely too ignorant to contribute usefully to this, but two points stand out to me as possible ways to go:



			
				({[|]});12219367 said:
			
		

> Still, I think the right way is to use  quoting, where the spy might be addressed as "она" by someone else in  such a way, that a native Russian easily understands who is "она", and  the interceptor fails to do so, thinking that it is an inanimate  thing.





Maroseika said:


> Maybe try the word особа (person). This word can mean as men, as women, but even when implemented to men it matchs with 'she'. If особа (person) and шпион, осведомитель (spy) are used in close vicinity in the text, it may be hard to notice when она - особа (she - person) changes in она - осведомитель (she - spy).



This sounds promising, but I'm not sure I quite understand it. Please could you be very kind and give me an example of the kind of phrase or sentence where this might happen? If I understand correctly the phrase would need to be in a quotation referring to the letter's recipient, and might read something like this:


> 'Our friend the Count said to me personally "I am quite delighted with what your _особа_ has given us, but confess to hoping the _осведомител_ can find out more about this wretched diving equipment. Could _она_ do that, do you think?"'



That's dreadful, of course, and I would need to write something more natural, but is this the right principle?

I should also say, '({[|]}, that your sample sentences including the image of mouldering cheese are EXACTLY in the style of the letters of this time. Are you a writer yourself, by any chance? Or a historian?

Either way I am extremely grateful to you all. Whether we find a solution or not, I am definitely learning something - and the book will be better for it.

Louisa


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## LilianaB

Even if a letter is written to a non-spy in Russian it is quite hard to detect the sex of the recipient. It is easy in Polish because of the use of Pan/Pani. In Russian you would mostly refer the same way to a man and a woman, unless you use _Gospodin_ and _Gospoza_, like before the Revolution.


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## LouisaB

LilianaB said:


> Even if a letter is written to a non-spy in Russian it is quite hard to detect the sex of the recipient.



Thank you, Liliana. This is exactly what I hoped - that it would be 'hard' to detect (so that my hero is not stupid for failing to see it immediately), but not impossible (so that my native speaker can see and explain it later).

That is what I meant by the English example of 'blond', 'blonde'. I know even English speakers who don't know the difference, but any real language expert would spot it instantly.

The trick is finding the exact word or phrase that will do it!


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## Maroseika

LouisaB said:


> This sounds promising, but I'm not sure I quite understand it. Please could you be very kind and give me an example of the kind of phrase or sentence where this might happen?



Actually I forgot he is writing directly to a spy... It would be possible to put together особа and осведомитель in the letter to the third party, but when writing directly to her it's problematic.
But just to show what I mean, here is like it could look in the letter for the third person (for passing it to the she-spy):

К сему присовокопляю письмо для особы, к которой вы имеете доступ и чье имя вам сообщат позже. Это весьма важный для нашего дела осведомитель, снабжающий нас чрезвычайно полезными сведениями, при этом подвергающий себя чрезвычайной опасности. Вам надлежит незамедлительно передать ей это письмо, как только имя ее будет доведено до вашего сведения.

Ей, ее (ея in the old orthography) can be understood as refered to особа, as to осведомитель. But stylistically more correct would be using его if the spy were a man. Therefore, these ей, ее might give the reader an idea that the spy might be a woman. But not necessarily, of course, just a supposition.


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## LilianaB

If the sender met the informant, and he is not too intelligent to put such revealing information in the letter to another spy, he could say something like:_ I am awfully sorry I spilled red whine on your dress the last time we met_, or someting that would name an item only women wear. Otherwise, it would be hard I think, even in Russian, unless he addresses her _Gospoza X_. Or, he could say something like: _please hide this letter in your bra_, for example. That wouldn't be too intelligent for a spy, either, though.

You could also say something like: _please wear a grey dress to the meeting with our agent_. (in Russian). Your English speaker may not understand the word _dress_. I am sorry, but I cannot type in the cyrillic right now.


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## grinski

Hello, 

My suggestion and a way out would be no using Russian at all in this letter. As no Russian person of high society used to be raised but by French gouverneurs and spoke French in the circles they belonged as free as Russian, you could avoid the problem with genders.

Just open Tolstoy's "War and Peace" and read page-long letters written in perfect French. Tolstoy's French language in "War and Peace" is dated to 1860s which is very close to 1855.

As an add-on _chic _you could use Russian sentenses with French phrases or whatever other language in places when the gender appears...


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## vh16

grinski said:


> Hello,
> 
> My suggestion and a way out would be no using Russian at all in this letter. As no Russian person of high society used to be raised but by French gouverneurs and spoke French in the circles they belonged as free as Russian, you could avoid the problem with genders.
> 
> Just open Tolstoy's "War and Peace" and read page-long letters written in perfect French. Tolstoy's French language in "War and Peace" is dated to 1860s which is very close to 1855.
> 
> As an add-on _chic _you could use Russian sentenses with French phrases or whatever other language in places when the gender appears...


However, "War and Peace" takes place in the 1800s-1810s. Tolstoy must have been imitating that French of the beginning of the century. By the middle perfect French had become less spread even in the high society, while German had been gaining popularity, in the non-noble (or less noble) university students and alumnae especially.


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## grinski

> Tolstoy must have been imitating that French of the beginning of the century.


Are you 100% sure about that?

As for the French vs German, I think I have encountered French in Turgenev and Bunin or Kuprin. German was a language of philosophers, IMHO. Raskolnikov, Bazarov, Rakhmentov etc. Just my shot in the dark...


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## LouisaB

Hello, grinski, and many thanks for the suggestion.

You're absolutely right about the Russian officers speaking French - Tolstoy says so specifically in his 'Sevastopol Sketches', written about his own time there in 1855. Unfortunately, however, I cannot use French for this letter, because my hero speaks fluent French himself - something I've established in the previous novel which is already published.

But thank you again - it would have been a great solution!

Louisa


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## LouisaB

Maroseika said:


> Actually I forgot he is writing directly to a spy... It would be possible to put together особа and осведомитель in the letter to the third party, but when writing directly to her it's problematic.
> But just to show what I mean, here is like it could look in the letter for the third person (for passing it to the she-spy):
> 
> К сему присовокопляю письмо для особы, к которой вы имеете доступ и чье имя вам сообщат позже. Это весьма важный для нашего дела осведомитель, снабжающий нас чрезвычайно полезными сведениями, при этом подвергающий себя чрезвычайной опасности. Вам надлежит незамедлительно передать ей это письмо, как только имя ее будет доведено до вашего сведения.
> 
> Ей, ее (ея in the old orthography) can be understood as refered to особа, as to осведомитель. But stylistically more correct would be using его if the spy were a man. Therefore, these ей, ее might give the reader an idea that the spy might be a woman. But not necessarily, of course, just a supposition.



Maroseika, thank you - this could be the perfect solution. I can easily change the letter so that is not directly to the female agent but to a 'go-between'. 

If I use your text, would it be right to say that it's enough to make an expert suspect the spy _might _be a woman, but he cannot be entirely sure? If so, that would be absolutely perfect.

There is only one snag for me. Since I don't speak Russian I'm afraid I have no idea what your passage means, or which are the key words that give away gender! I'm so sorry to be stupid - could you help me one last time?

Louisa


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## Maroseika

LouisaB said:


> If I use your text, would it be right to say that it's enough to make an expert suspect the spy _might _be a woman, but he cannot be entirely sure?


Yes, I think so.


> There is only one snag for me. Since I don't speak Russian I'm afraid I have no idea what your passage means, or which are the key words that give away gender!



Far be it from me to suppose my Russian text is good enough for your novel or that it really looks like a letter written in 1857. You better get good Russian editor to check it.
However it means the following (key words marked bold):

"Attached please find the letter for the person [особа - male or female, but grammatically feminine], to whom [к которой - female ending] you have access and of whose name you will be informed later. This is the informer [осведомитель - male/female], providing [male ending] us with extremely usefull intelligence, and in so doing utterly endangering himself. It is incumbent on you to pass *her *[ей - to person or to informer] this letter without any delay as soon as *her *[ее - person's or informer's] name will have been brought to your notice".


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## LouisaB

Maroseika - thank you so much. That is brilliant. There is quite enough information there for me to make a rough draft, which I will indeed have checked by a native Russian speaker.

Thank you, everyone, for all your help on this thread. As usual, Word Reference has saved the day!

Louisa


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## ({[|]})

Just to have clearer a few things...


LouisaB said:


> I should also say, '({[|]}, that your sample sentences including the image of mouldering cheese are EXACTLY in the style of the letters of this time. Are you a writer yourself, by any chance? Or a historian?


I'm neither... 


Maroseika said:


> I'm afraid I cannot understand the sense of this phrase.


Of course. The phrase I gave in #11 (that where "оставаться" indeed means "to stay" and is applied to information) is not a good Russian, but how the Russian beginner would know it? He might indeed guess that the phrase (that of the post #7) means, that it is the information that should remain uncorrupted as long as Arbatiev finds a valid magazine, given that any dictionary would translate the word "оставаться" as "to remain" or "to stay".

I'll try to elaborate my view. What I understood is that the interceptor is an officer, rather smart, but only a beginner in Russian (and I guess he knows French very well, by the way, because he was smart and French was an international language at that time, AFAIU) *. He is familiar with the basics of the Russian grammar, he has got a very good Russian-English dictionary, and sometime somewhere he has already read something in Russian, probably something military.

Now, he has intercepted a letter. The letter was written either by a noble and highly courteous person (the example is Maroseika's fragment) or by a more "simple" person, who all his life had been an army officer (Ignatiev), and all (the example would be my fragment, with some modifications that I can't quite realize). (Just a note, given the surname of the sender, I would rather expect the latter). Either way, the language of the letter is quite complicated; the sender is not willing to hide anything, but he is not seeking to adapt his letter to foreigners' needs either.

Now, our interceptor, with his quite limited skills in Russian, but smart, wants to decipher the letter. Will he be able to decipher the most part of it? Based on my own, though limited, experience, I answer: definitely yes. He will have to think, to turn over the pages of his dictionary, to apply his logic, but eventually he will know, what's written. Will he understand the sense completely? Again, based on my own experience, I answer: definitely no. In a language, there are always things, that can't be understood by just a smart beginner, because they are illogical, or their logic is not easily seen.

So, to the event. What will be happening? Upon seeing the word "наш человек", the officer will be almost sure that the "человек" is a man. Simply: because spies are usually men, and the word "человек" means "man, person, human". The latter two translations seem to be not important (who will think they are?), so he'll proceed. Next, he sees the word "остаться". The dictionary says: it means "to stay, to remain". What's remaining where? Easily! Information! Information that Arbatiev&co have got... The rest is even simpler: Arbatiev has to find "погреба" (probably, military warehouses), and he will indeed do so...

Then, 1) he realizes that the language of Arbatiev is indeed strange, just as he (the interceptor) already suspects, 2) he'll learn that Ignatiev and Arbatiev must be attentive in their activities with the information that may become mouldered soon... Everything just fits!

And now, do you think the interceptor is stupid? Come on, have you never make silly translation mistakes?! Quite especially — if you're just a beginner. But, it's not that hard for a beginner to put an hour or two into deciphering of logical puzzles (myself I tried; for example, I started to learn English two years ago, and I did it only by decyphering puzzles). All he needs is a bit of logic, a wish, and a good dictionary.

The only problem with that letter might be that it's indeed should be out of the time, as Maroseika said... His version is better.

* I have just read (in #23), that LouisaB thinks the same and reported it while I was writing my lonnng post... Fascinating!


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## LilianaB

I actually don't know if English-Russian dictionaries were even published not to say widely available in 1855.


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## ({[|]})

LilianaB said:


> I actually don't know if English-Russian dictionaries were even published not to say widely available in 1855.


Russian-English, you meant...

I don't know either. In what way they learned Russian? Using good dictionaries? Using small dictionaries? Through French? (As today we might study, say, Chinese or Lithuanian through English). Or no way, only with a teacher at hand? In the latter case there will be no way at all for the situation to appear — the uneducated officer won't even try to decypher a real Russian's letter, he will search for a Russian expert at once...


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## LilianaB

I was actually trying to find out when the first Russian-English dictionary was published, but I could only spend 3 minutes on it, so I did not find anything. The first Russian-Russian (descriptive) dictionary was published at the end of the 1800th c.


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## Maroseika

LilianaB said:


> I was actually trying to find out when the first Russian-English dictionary was published, but I could only spend 3 minutes on it, so I did not find anything.



The first one was created by Richard James in the beginning of the 17th century.


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