# his father/his brother



## elroy

Are these the only constructions that take the ending יו to mean "his" (אביו/אחיו)?

If not, what other nouns do?
If so, do all other nouns take the ending ו?


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## Nunty

You also have "its fruit" (as of a tree), but it is pronounced differently:פריוֹ (piryo), like in Genesis 1. Probably are others, but can't think of any at the moment. 

In general you have just  the  ו  ending: ביתו, אחותו, מכוניתו, דעתו. Wait. These all end in  ת . Let me see if I can think of something  else... ספרו, מאמרו, סופו. There, my brain is unstuck. 

You are probably safe in general in assuming that the ending is -o and just learning exceptions as they come along.


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## pachyderm

The only other example that occurs to me is חָמִיו (his father in law). But I doubt many Hebrew speakers are familiar with this form.


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## Nunty

I did not know it.  Is it pronounced like כליו or like אביו?


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## elroy

Thank you both. 


Nun-Translator said:


> You also have "its fruit" (as of a tree), but it is pronounced differently:פריוֹ (piryo), like in Genesis 1.


 I'm not sure this one is in the same class as "father" and "brother," because the base form is פרי, so the י is part of the noun and not the suffix.


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## Nunty

I bow to the linguist's analysis.


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## scriptum

Let´s not forget פיו


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## Nunty

Bravo scriptum! Now it's for the linguist to decide if it's in the same class as אב and אח or if the ה makes it different. Elroy?


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## scriptum

Nun-Translator said:


> Now it's for the linguist to decide if it's in the same class as אב and אח


Of course it is not in the same class. Unlike the case of אב etc., in פיו "yod" is part of the root.


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## Nunty

Well, that is why he didn't like my suggestion of פריו, either. I'm not a linguist, just a native speaker who didn't even go to high school here, so I was checking.


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## elroy

scriptum said:


> Of course it is not in the same class. Unlike the case of אב etc., in פיו "yod" is part of the root.


 Actually, I would indeed consider it to be in the same class as אב and אח.  The י is not part the root; I wonder why you say that it is?  

The root is פה; in the possessive form, the ה is dropped, leaving us with a root of פ, to which the suffix יו (not ו) is added.


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## Flaminius

I'd say the root is *pV* and the word is treated as plural for all purposes.  Therefore, the plural personal suffix יו is used (the yod is silent).


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## pachyderm

If I can add my suggestion to the mix, I'd say that the stem is "אבי", and for some reason in the singular form without suffix the י is dropped. (Usually the "real" stem is revealed in inflected forms, compare מֶלֶך, where the stem is presumed to be מַלְכּ, also based on cognate from other languages)


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## elroy

Flaminius said:


> I'd say the root is *pV* and the word is treated as plural for all purposes. Therefore, the plural personal suffix יו is used (the yod is silent).


 I'm not convinced.

First of all, why would the word be treated as plural?  
Secondly, the plural suffix is pronounced "av" and not "iv."


pachyderm said:


> If I can add my suggestion to the mix, I'd say that the stem is "אבי",


 Interesting point.

This is also supported by expressions such as אבי-משפחה.

But we couldn't make the argument that the "real" root of פה is פי, could we?


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## Nunty

Well, I'm not sure what the implications are for the "real" root, but in סמיכות the word פה becomes פי.


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## elroy

Nun-Translator said:


> Well, I'm not sure what the implications are for the "real" root, but in סמיכות the word פה becomes פי.


 This adds another interesting dimension to the discussion.  I assume the same applies to אב and אח.  Since the possessive is like סמיכות with a pronoun, maybe that's what explains the "extra" י.


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## Nunty

The plural of אח is אחים, as you might expect. But the plural of אב is אבות and the plural of פה is פיות. Just to throw another bone into the soup.


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## elroy

Nun-Translator said:


> The plural of אח is אחים, as you might expect. But the plural of אב is אבות and the plural of פה is פיות. Just to throw another bone into the soup.


 Yes, I know that, but I was referring to the behavior of the singular words in סמיכות. They all end in י in that construction, which must be why they end in יו when the possessor is a pronoun. If we consider the י part of the root, then these nouns don't actually differ morphologically from any other nouns in the "his" construction (but they do differ phonologically in that the ו is pronounced "v" and not "o.").

אבי הילד - אביו
אחי הילד - אחיו
פי הילד - פיו

Please let me know if I'm speaking nonsense.


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## pachyderm

No, you're right. Consider also that consonantal Vav is presumed to have been pronounced historically [w], as in Arabic.

As for the stem of פֶּה being פִּי, it shouldn't come as much of a shock in the light of similar alternations in verbs, cf שָתָה / שָתִיתִי. (Again, the same phenomenon in Arabic with Alif Maksura)


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## scriptum

elroy said:


> Actually, I would indeed consider it to be in the same class as אב and אח. The י is not part the root; I wonder why you say that it is?
> 
> The root is פה; in the possessive form, the ה is dropped, leaving us with a root of פ, to which the suffix יו (not ו) is added.


 
Elroy, "ה" cannot be a part of the root for the simple reason that it does not denote any consonant. It is a "mater lectionis" (אם קריאה) standing for a vowel. You can easily recognize the consonant "ה" by _hearing_ it (like in "גבוה"). A mater lectionis can only be _seen_ (like in "פרה"). 
פרה and פרי have the same root: פר"י.


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