# Iranian languages - purity



## Kurdistanish

_Split from here._


cynicmystic said:


> Very interesting...
> 
> Could you provide some citation regarding your theory about Kurdish being the 'purest' Iranian language in terms of retaining a purely Iranian vocabulary. To me, it sounded a bit far-fetched.


 
I’m really happy to meet someone aware of Iranian languages here. It’s interesting to me that to consider Kurdish as purest Iranian language in case of preserving a purely Iranian vocabulary sounds a bit improbable to you. Indeed in this case you have your own evidences and reasons I have not faced yet. The proofs of which I’m delightfully waiting to be conscious of. 

At the beginning I like to describe some facts about New Persian language. Exactly there are three –somehow- different kind of New Persian; 1. Archaic Persian (mainly used in 
pre-medieval and medieval times, language of Persian classical literature and poetry; e.g. Bûstân va Golestân-e Sa’di-e Shirâzi, Shânâme-ye Ferdôsi, Divân-e Hâfez-e Shirâzi, Mathnavi-ye Ma’navi-ye Môlânâ Jalâleddin-e Balkhi, Robâ’iyât-e Khayyâm-e Neyshâbûri ) 2. Formal Persian (official language of Iran used in broadcasting, modern literature, journals, etc) 3. Informal Persian (the current language Persians use in their daily life to communicate with each other). Here are some examples to explain how much these speeches are different : 

Archaic Persian : “Bedân ke mardom-e bi-honar mâdâm bi-sûd bâshad, chon moghilân ke tan dârad va sâya nadârad; na khod râ sûd konad va na gheyr-e khod ra; jahd kon agarche asil va gôhari bâshi gôhar-e tan niz dâri ke gôhar-e tan az gôhar-e asl behtar bovad…”1

Official Persian : “Bedân ke mardom-e bi-honar hamishe bi-sûd khâhand bûd, zirâ khâr-e biyâban ke tan o saye nadârad; na barây-e khod sûdi dârad na barây-e digari; talâsh o kûshesh kon agarche asil o banezhâd bâshi ke gôhar tan râ be zir-e gôhar-e dânesh bebari ke gôhar-e elm o dânesh az gôhar-e asl o nasab behtar ast…”

Daily Persian : “Bedûn âdama-ye bi-honar hamishe bi-khasiyatan, [mesle] khâr-e biyâbuûn ke tan o saye nadâre; na vâse khodesh sûdi dâre na vâse digari; say o talâsh bokon agarche asl o nasabdar bâshi chonke bâyesti asl-e khodet’o bebari zir-e elm ke elm e ke az asl o nasabdâri behtar e…”

As you see the above texts are as far as no one can consider them to be same. It’s interesting that in Iran the second and third texts would be called “translation” of the first text! Although all the above texts are considered to be New Persian texts but you can see how far they are. People living in Iran know this fact better than any one else. Almost in all linguistic articles Persian language since 1400 years ago (6th AD) till nowadays is called New Persian then believed to be remained unchangeable in these 1400 years!!

If we are going to compare Iranian languages with Persian in case of purity we must use daily Persian. Formal Persian and Archaic Persian must be compared with middle and old forms of Iranian languages. For evidence in Archaic Persian we have the word nam “name” which doesn’t exist in daily Persian. In today Persian we have “esm”, an Arabic loanword. In Tehran no one says “nam-at chist?”  (~ Archaic) instead of “esm-et chi’ye?” (~ what’s your name).


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## cynicmystic

Thank you very much for taking the time for your detailed post. The reason why I am reluctant to agree with you is because I have noticed that the Kurdish dialect that is predominant in Turkey, Kurmanchi, is not comprehensible to the Zaza of Giresun, who are also Kurdish - yet of a different historic line. I am aware of the fact that Kurmanchi speakers belong to an older Kurdish strata, and the Zaza are of Turkic origin, who aquired the Kurdish language early in their presence in Anatolia, just as the Bulgar Turks became Christianized & Slavized. Both Kurmanchi and Zaza are filled with loan words from modern Turkish, Ottoman Turkish, old Turkish, Arabic, Modern & Archaic Farsi, and even English. Some of the old Turkish words that one can find alive and in use in Kurdish dialects are no longer part of modern Turkish. In the same way, some of the Farsi & Arabic words that are still used on a daily basis in Turkey are considered archaic in modern Farsi & Arabic. To compound all this, we have the Tajiks, whose dialect is considered to be the most archaic Farsi that is spoken today. The Dari of Afghanistan also deserves some credit for preserving an archaic form. So, it is a bit difficult to argue that kurdish retained a pure vocabulary whereas the other Farsi dialects just became diluted. In my opinion, Kurdish is at least as diluted as any other modern language in the same area.


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## Lugubert

There are innumerable of cases of fighting for which language is the most pure or ancient among relatives. Examples are Lithuanian for Indo-European languages, and Cantonese vs. Beijing flavours of Chinese.

Nobody has to my knowledge proposed measurable criteria for such evaluations, so I suppose we have to be content with the fact that many languages have features that can be traced to a distant antiquity.


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## cynicmystic

The reason why Lithuanian takes the credit for supposedly being the closest modern language to the theoretical Proto-Indo-European is simply because, Lithuanian, among all IE languages, is the only one which has retained 12 or 14 cases, which, I think is a fair standard to credit Lithuanian in that way. Afterall, none of the IE languages that are currently spoken retained those archaic case system with the exception of Russian, perhaps. 

Aside from that, I completely agree with you. All modern languages have been borrowing from and loaning to each other for a very long time, and it is difficult to say which dialect has retained the 'purest' form. Saying that Kurdish, which is composed of quite a few dialects, has retained the 'purest' form among all other Farsi dialects is not really tenable. This is a bit like saying that the Yorkshire dialect has the purest form of all English dialects.



Lugubert said:


> There are innumerable of cases of fighting for which language is the most pure or ancient among relatives. Examples are Lithuanian for Indo-European languages, and Cantonese vs. Beijing flavours of Chinese.
> 
> Nobody has to my knowledge proposed measurable criteria for such evaluations, so I suppose we have to be content with the fact that many languages have features that can be traced to a distant antiquity.


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## Cecilio

Kurdistanish said:


> _Split from here._
> 
> As you see the above texts are as far as no one can consider them to be same. It’s interesting that in Iran the second and third texts would be called “translation” of the first text! Although all the above texts are considered to be New Persian texts but you can see how far they are. People living in Iran know this fact better than any one else. Almost in all linguistic articles Persian language since 1400 years ago (6th AD) till nowadays is called New Persian then believed to be remained unchangeable in these 1400 years!!
> 
> If we are going to compare Iranian languages with Persian in case of purity we must use daily Persian. Formal Persian and Archaic Persian must be compared with middle and old forms of Iranian languages. For evidence in Archaic Persian we have the word nam “name” which doesn’t exist in daily Persian. In today Persian we have “esm”, an Arabic loanword. In Tehran no one says “nam-at chist?”  (~ Archaic) instead of “esm-et chi’ye?” (~ what’s your name).



That's interesting. Are you suggesting that today's newspapers in Iran use an archaic language which is no longer spoken by people? Do the differences refer to all linguistic aspects: morphology, syntax, phonology, semantics?


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## Lugubert

cynicmystic said:


> The reason why Lithuanian takes the credit for supposedly being the closest modern language to the theoretical Proto-Indo-European is simply because, Lithuanian, among all IE languages, is the only one which has retained 12 or 14 cases, which, I think is a fair standard to credit Lithuanian in that way. Afterall, none of the IE languages that are currently spoken retained those archaic case system with the exception of Russian, perhaps.


I feel I have to make a small derail here. Having a case system isn't very unique. Lithuanian has expanded on the PIE set, others have reduced it. The main argument for Lithuanian's antiquity is its tonal features.



			
				Cecilio said:
			
		

> That's interesting. Are you suggesting that today's newspapers in Iran use an archaic language which is no longer spoken by people? Do the differences refer to all linguistic aspects: morphology, syntax, phonology, semantics?


It would be interesting to known how much the person in the street understands from, say, a poem written in 900 C.E.


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## domangelo

When looking at the relative "purity" in a family of dialects or national languages, one criterion that is very significant, and requires no direct knowledge of the languages themselves, is geography. A dialect (I will use that term advisedly) that is exposed to constant trade and interaction with other language families will inevitably borrow words, expressions and eventually grammatical characteristics of its neighbors. On the other hand, dialects that are geographically isolated with little direct social mixture with other language groups will continue to develop on their own in a more linear ("pure") fashion. By this criterion, I think that Kurdish, being by far the most exposed to outside influences, since it is not the official language of any state and is incorporated in diglossic relationship with other languages, is absolutely the LEAST likely in the Iranian family to be purest. The Tajiks and other dialects of Central Asia are far more likely to receive that "honor" (if "purity" is a quality to be valued).


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## Kurdistanish

Well I’m really glad to meet some experts in Iranian languages here though such gladness also means arguing about my claim has been harder to me. 

I think no need to talking about what “purity” means in details. A language with lesser domain of loanwords (especially regarding to borrowing from non-relative languages) comparing to the other relative languages, could be called purest.
Discussing about purity among Iranian languages fairly needs to clarify the position of the most famous language of this Indo-European family language. Without clarifying the real position of the Persian language it would be wrongful to compare this language with the other Iranian languages. For example look at this Zoroastrian Pahlavi (also called Middle Persian) words: teftîg, agahîh, alûh, amoxten, ewêþan, têmar, mêĝ, exter, tendirust, ers, ray, adur, endek, erêþk, xwêy, bûm, xwer, derzîg, xwarden, xweþ, heleg, ender. Here are their Kurdish equivalents: tawyag, agahî (xewer*), elû (eylo, helo), amotin (~fêr kirdin), ewþan (ewan), xefet (xem*, têmar), mij, estêre, tendirust (salîm*), ers (esr, estir), eray (re, rê, bo), ayir (<atir, ard, agir), hendek, riþk (hesed*, hisadet*), xwê (areq*), bûm, xwer (xweretaw), derzî, xwardin, xweþ, helew (gêl), inder (*Arabic loanwords). If you would ask for “Persian” equivalents you’ll get these words: tefte, agahî, aloh, amûxten, îþan, tîmar, mîĝ, exter, tendorost, ers, ra, adher, endek, reþk, xûy, bûf, xwer, derzî, xwarden, xweþ, kana, ender; which respectively mean: burned, information, eagle, to educate, they, sad (~sadness), cloud, star, healthy, tear, for, fire, few, jealousy, sweat, owl, sun, tailor, to eat, good (~sweet), idiot, in (into, inside, inter-). As is Persian and Kurdish almost share same similarities with Pahlavi language. According to the current believe about Persian (New Persian or Modern Persian) language all of the above words marked as Persian must exist in this language and Persian speakers should use them in their ‘daily speech’ (as it’s accurate about all of mentioned Kurdish words). But the point is that exactly ‘none’ of the mentioned so-called New Persian words exist in Today Persian! Very funny that some of them are entirely unfamiliar for Persian speakers (e.g. tefte, aloh, mîĝ, ers, ra, xûy, derzî, kana). If a Persian could understand any of the above words it’s just through education, media, and journals (as Persian is the official language of Iran). But no Persian speaker use them in his/her daily speech. Here are the ‘correct’ Persian equivalents of the mentioned Pahlavi and so-called ‘New Persian’ words: atîþî (~ der halê sûxten), êtêla daþten (~ xeber* daþten), oqab* , yad gêrêften, ûna, qem* (~qossê), ebr, sêtarê, salêm*, eþk, vasê (~ bera), atîþ, kem, hêsadet* (hesed*), ereq*, coĝd (Sogdian loanword), xorþîd (~ aftab), xeyyat*, xorden, xoþ (~xûb), ahmeq*, daxêl* (*Arabic loanwords). < Now it’s fair to compare similarities between Kurdish and Persian with Pahlavi. Another funny fact is that Today Persian speakers ‘cannot’ pronounce ‘w’ e.g. Archaic Persian ‘xwarden’ > -correct- New Persian ‘xorden’, A. P. ‘xweþ’> N.P ‘xoþ’, A.P. ‘xwab’ > N.P. ‘xab’, A.P. ‘xwasten’> N.P. ‘xasten’. But unfortunately at comparison time the words containing ‘w’ lie as New or Modern Persian words beside other strange words that Today Persian speakers never use in their whole life!


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## Kurdistanish

[Lugubert: It would be interesting to known how much the person in the street understands from, say, a poem written in 900 C.E.]

Indeed it’s interesting to know how much the guys in Tehran streets, New Persian speakers, understand from New Persian (!) poems written in 600 – 1300 years ago. My point is exactly to clear it up if it’s really so –as the current believe is- or we must consider the Persian language in ~ 1000 years ago something different than current daily Persian. 

[Cecilio: That's interesting. Are you suggesting that today's newspapers in Iran use an archaic language which is no longer spoken by people? Do the differences refer to all linguistic aspects: morphology, syntax, phonology, semantics?]

The language that today’s Iranian official parts (journals, media, etc.) use is exactly no longer, in some cases never been, spoken by Persian speakers. 

Rûznâmê-yê Jâm-ê Jam, Safhê-yê Siyâsi, Cahârshanbê 13 tir 1386, shomârê-yê 2039 
(From Jamejam newspaper, in official Persian)


“Irân taslim* nemishavad

B.B.C dar gozâreshi dar târix*-e dovom-e tir mâh nevesht saran-e dôlathâ*-yê ozv*-e etehâdiye*-ye orupâ dar jalase*-ye mohem*-e axir*-e xod zemn*-e pardâxtan be masâel*-e omde*… 

An gûne ke barxi xabargozârihâ* gozâresh kardeand be môjeb*-e in pishnevis alâve* bar tashdid*-e tahrimhâ* alayh*-e irân…

Bar asâs*-e yeki az bandhâ-ye pishnevis-e qatnâme*-ye sevom ke az suy-e landan erâe* shodeast…

Az didgâh-e orupâyihâ, sheddat* yâftan-e feshârhâ-ye siyâsi*-eqtesâdi* alayh*-e irân dar cârcub-e siyâsat*-e … mitavânad be kâhesh-e tadriji*-ye moqâvemat*-e irân va taslim*-e ân dar qebâl*-e kh(w)âstehâ-ye gorûh biyanjâmad…”

Daily Persian translation:

“Irân taslim* nemishe

B.B.C do-ye tir tu yê gozâresh nevesht roasâ*-ye dolatâ*-ye ozv*-e etehadiye* orupâ tu jalase*-ye mohem*-e hamin avâxereshun* sevâ*-ye residegi be masâyel*-e omde*…

Un tori* ke bazi* xabargozâriyâ* gozâresh kardan tebq*-e in pishnevise alâv*-e bar in ke tahrimâ* zede*-e irân shadidtar* mishan...

Tebq*-e yeki az bandâ-ye pishnevis-e qatnâme*-ye sevom ke az taraf*-e landan dâde shode…

Az nazar*-e orupâyiâ, sheddat* gereftan-e feshârâ-ye siyâsi*-eqtesâdi* zede* irân tu cârcub-e siyâsat*-e … mitune bâes*-e kam shodan-e yavâsh yavâsh-e moqâvemat*-e irân o taslimesh* moqâbel*-e khâstâ-ye gurûh beshe…” 

(*Arabic loanwords)

For whom that are expert in Iranian languages (particularly Persian) the above texts could easily clarify the differences between Official Persian (not Archaic Persian) and daily Persian also amount and importance of the Arabic loanwords in both speeches. However I will explain the differences below. Before paying attention to differences between Official and Daily Persian, just take a look at the Kurdish (the official language of Iraqi Kurdistan and the second official language of Iraq; unfortunately our advised expert in Iranian languages, domangelo, didn’t know that; domangelo:”..since it [Kurdish] is not the official language of any state..”) translation of the above text:

“Êran Waz Nanêt

B.B.C le guzarîþtêk da be katî dûhemî rêzberan nûsî serokanî Welatanî Yekgirtûy Ewropa le danîþtnewey giringî em nizîkaney xweyan da becge le geyiþtin be pirsgirkanî giþtî…

Ew core wa hindek le nûçegeyanîkan hewalyan dawe em pêþnûse hoy ewe debêt ke becgey tun bûnewey rêbestin dijî Êran…

Be ser yekêk le’w bendaney pêþnûsî pêmannamey sêhem ke le layen Lendenewa dirawe….

Le nêrrînî Ewropayiyekan tun bûnewey fiþaranî siyasî*-aborî dijî Êran le çwarçêwey siyasetî*… detwanêt be xwar hatinewey berwanêtî Êran û waz hênanewey beranber wîstekanî giroh akam bikat…”

(*Arabic loanwords)


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## Kurdistanish

[Cecilio: … Do the differences refer to all linguistic aspects: morphology, syntax, phonology, semantics?]

It’s a flat fact that Archaic Persian, Official Persian and Daily Persian are different speeches. But do these differences pertain to morphology, syntax, phonology, and semantics? 

A comparison of Official Persian and Daily Persian tenses:

kardan “to do”

Official Persian : Daily Persian : English

mikonam : mikonam : I do
mikoni : mikoni : you do
mikonad : mikone : s/he does
mikonim : mikonim : we do
mikonid : mikonin : you do
mikonand : mikonan : they do

kardam : kardam : I did
kardi : kardi : you did
kard : kard : s/he did
kardim : kardim : we did
kardid : kardin : you did
kardand : kardan : they did

kardeam : kardam : I have done
kardei : kardi : you have done
kardeast : karde : s/he has done
kardeim : kardim : we have done
kardeid : kardin : you have done
kardeand : kardan : they have done

xâham kard : mikonam : I will do
xâhi kard : mikoni : you will do
xâhad kard : mikone : s/he will do
xâhim kard : mikonim : we will do
xâhid kard : mikonin : you will do
xâhand kard : mikonan : they will do


Comparing some sentences:

Off. Persian : barâ-ye ce in kâr râ mikonid?
Daily Persian : vâse ci in kâr’o mikonin?
English : why do you do so? 

O. P : rûz-e besyâr xubi ast!
D.P : rûz-e xeyli xubi’ye!
E : It’s a very good day!

O.P : ensânhâ dârand az khâb bidâr mishavand, aknun be yegânegi bish az pish dar hâl-e nazdik shodanim!
D.P : âdamâ dâran az khâb pâ mishan, hala darim be yeki shodan bishtar az qabl nazdik mishim!
E: Humankind is arousing from sleep, now we are getting closer to the unity!

Some differences in pronouncing common words;
Daily Persian : Official Persian : English

shum : shâm : night
a, az : az : from
xune : xane : house
bârûn : bârân : rain
-a : -ha : plural article
-a : -an, -gan : plural article
câr : cahâr : four
-mun : -mân : our, of us
-tun : -tân : yours, of you
-shun : -shan : theirs, of them
dige : digar : other
nun : nan : bread
sizdebedar : sizdahbedar : an Iranian ceremony 
ci : ce : what
ki : ke : who
age : agar : if
âxe : âxar : because
bezâr : begozar : put it
vollâ : vallâh : swear on God
bune : bahâne : excuse

Some words which are usually used in Official Persian but never used or exist in Daily Persian;

Daily Persian : Official Persian : English 

mariz : bimâr : ill, sick
din : âyin : religion
ce qadr : ce andâze : how much
molâqat : didâr : meeting
âyande : âti : future
tu : dar : in
kâmpiyuter : râyâne : computer
dâxel : darun : into
hadaf : âmâj : target
mâshin : xodrô : car, automobile
shodan : gashtan : to become
vasi : gostarde : wide
ziyâd shodan : afzâyesh : increase
vaqt, zamân : hengâm : time
peydâ kardan : yâftan : to find
khosh umadan (az cizi) : pasandidan : to like, to love
soâl : porsesh : question
zed : alayh : against
hâmele : âbestan : pregnant
xeyli : besyâr : very, very much
barâ, vâse : be manzur-e : in order to
taraf : su, suy : side
bâ in ôz-ahvâl : be in tartib : as it sounds
shadid kardan : tashdid : heighten, intensify
un : u, vey : s/he
mersi, mocakker : sepâs : thanks
ham : niz, ham : too
shuru : aĝaz : start
tamum shodan : etmâm, pâyân yâftan : to end
hamintor : hamchenin : also


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## Kurdistanish

…

There is no difference between Official Persian and Archaic Persian. You can use every word belonging to Archaic Persian (~1000 years ago) in your speeches and writings because exactly you have used a word from Official (New or Modern) Persian. But as Iranian writers and journalists are aware of the mass distance between so-called New Persian and Daily Persian, they almost never use the archaic words in their articles. All of the above Official Persian words belong to a vocabulary that the Iranian writers always use in their articles! Then just suppose such difference exists between Archaic Persian and Daily Persian. Let’s make a little comparison between so-called New (or Modern) Persian and Daily Persian:


New Persian : Daily Persian : English : Journalistic position of the New Persian word

helidan : ejâze dâdan : to let : never used
bek : qurbâĝe : frog : never used
bâregi : esp : horse : never used
afgâr : zexmi : injured : never used
paykân : tir : arrow : almost never used
kat : shune (katokul) : shoulder : never used
minu : behesht : paradise : almost never used
hima : hizom : fire wood : almost never used
xadang : tri : arrow : almost never used
xasta : majruh, zaxmi : injured : never used
xalang : alaf-e jxaru : kind of grass : never used
badsegâl : badniyyat : adversary 
muya : zâri : cry, yell : almost never used
sehm : ters : fear : almost never used (~sehmgîn)
shokum : shogun : luck : never used
xâyidan : javidan : to chew : almost never used
miz : shâsh, edrâr : urine : never used
xwish : xod : self, own : sometimes used
raz : tâkestân : grape farm : never used
razm : jang : war : exists
rishkhand : maskhare : to kid : exists
sepuz : ta’xir : to be late : never used​​sij : saxti : hardness : never used​​bastar : jâ, raxt-e xâb : bed : exists
rostan : roshd kardan : to grow up : sometimes used
sân : no’, jur : kind : never used
sâv : bâj, xarâj : tax, imposition : never used​​sezâ : haq : right : exists​​separdan : gozarundan : to pass : almost never used​​sôgand : qasam : oath, swear : exists​​sij : saxti : hardness : never used​​sarây : xune : house : almost never used​​sotur : esp : horse : never used​​setândan : gereftan : to take : almost never used​​setorg : saxt : hard : almost never used​​shabkur : xoffâsh : bat : never used​​shid : deraxshân, por nur : bright : never used​​shabân : cupun : shepherd : almost never used​​shodan : raftan : to go : never used​​taftan : deraxshidan : to bright, to shine : never used​​tahm : qavi : strong : never used​​takuk : zarf-e ghazâ : kind of plate : never used​​barzegar : kârgar : worker : never used​​varzâ : gâv-e nar : bull : never used​​bosad : marjân : coral : never used​​vaxshur : peyĝambar : profetn : never used​​afruxtan : roshan kardan : to light up : almost never used​​xwahl : monhani : curved : never used​​bazh : harf, kalum : word : never used​​vazidan : (bâd) umadan : to blow : exists​​farâx : vasi, pahn : wide : almost never used​​gozidan : entexâb kardan : to select : exists​​godâr : gozar : passage : never used​​gozar : marg : death : never used​​xorsand : xoshâl : happy : exists​​gosil kardan : ferestâdan : to send : exists​​gush : zahr : poison : never used​​bashgard : sahrâ : desert : never used​​geravesh : imân : faith : never used​​xân : cheshme : spring, well : never used​​xarboz : boz-e mâde : goat (feminine) : never used​​xayu : tof, âb-e dahan : spit : never used​​xim : tabiyat : nature : never used​​xwad : vâqean : indeed : never used​​xostuyi : bâvar : believe : never used​​zahâb : cheshme : spring, well : never used​​hamidun : ham in ke, hamintor : also : never used​​


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## sound shift

Purity is a difficult concept.
I know very little about the Iranian languages. I did read, though, that Farsi has been "out of contact" with the other Indo-European languages for about 1,000 years.


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## Kurdistanish

For guys with a basic knowledge of Persian and Iranian language the above comparisons are enough to conclude. As you see In the last comparison I just used pure Iranian words in Archaic Persian, let alone the wide-extended domain of Arabic words in this archaic language which I can fairly say most of Iranians even cannot pronounce them (take a look at results of Persian Literature exam ‘Zabân va Adabiyyât-e Fârsi’ in Iranian famous examination for higher education ‘Konkur’, which is based on translating Archaic Persian poems and texts into Daily Persian!). According to the current believes there must be ‘one’ Modern Persian but exactly there exist three kind of Persian of which only one is alive: Daily Persian. When we use the term modern or new about a living language it means it’s currently spoken by the people it belongs to. We must compare Daily Persian with other languages when we claim we compare those languages with New/Modern Persian. Using extinct words belonging to centuries ago has nothing to do with the fact of modern words. If we are going to use non-existent words (belonging to up 500 years ago) then there must be no time limitation, we better to use Zoroastrian Pahlavi, Arsacid Pahlavi, Old Persian and, the best choice in this case, Avestan words too (or maybe P.I.E words!). ​ 


Before talking about the topic directly, I want to note some additions on domangelo’s opinion about Kurdish and other Iranian languages. He wisely noted that ‘geography’ is very important criterion in order to observe purity in a language family. I sensibly remark the term ‘ethnic geography’ to gain a precise term. Kurdish language has these languages as its neighbors: Armenian (an isolate language, in north) Ottoman Turkish (a Turkic language, in west and northwest), Mesopotamian Arabic (a Semitic language, in southwest and south), Lurrish (could be considered as a mixture of Kurdish and Persian, in southeast), Central Dialects (they are almost extinct speeches and nowadays Persian is spoken in their former territory, in east), Azerbaijani (a Turkic language which took Tati language’s place in the Azerbaijan area, in northwest). Let’s see the Tajik dialect of Persian language’s position: Uzbek (a Turkic language in north and northwest), Kazakh (a Turkic language, in north), Kyrgyz (a Turkic language, in north), Khotanese Dialects (which domangelo called them together with Tajik as Central Asian dialects but didn’t mention if they belong to the same language or not), Pakistani Dialects (probably Dardic, in east and northeast), Pashto (in south), Khorasani Dialect of Persian (in west), Turkmen (a Turkic language, in northwest). According to domangelo’s principles: [“A dialect (I will use that term advisedly) that is exposed to constant trade and interaction with other language families will inevitably borrow words, expressions and eventually grammatical characteristics of its neighbors”] we must care about the neighbors of other language families. Can you count the stranger neighbors? Kurdish language has 4 stranger neighbors and Tajik Dialect of Persian language owns 5 neighbors of stranger language families. I don’t know how come it’s possible to suppose that owning lesser foreign languages as neighbors will cause purity then issue that a speech, like Tajik, is the purest, compared to other Iranian languages such as Kurdish (with lesser neighbors of other language families!) or Gilaki (with no neighbor of foreign language families!!). If the owner of the above opinion, dear demangelo, didn’t know these basic facts about ethno-geographical position (let alone the linguistic facts) of Iranian Languages so how come he used the terms about Iranian Languages ‘advisedly’, ‘absolutely’ called Kurdish the ‘LEAST’ to be purest among Iranian Languages and eventually gave the “honor” of purity to Tajik Dialect of Persian Language?!! A Persian expression says “ensân jâezolkhatâ’st”.


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## Kurdistanish

Back to the topic it’s a flat fact that almost all languages of Middle East have been influenced by Arabic in different degrees. Specially the languages most of their speakers converted to Islam. Ottoman Turkish is a fair example in this case. Both of Persian and Kurdish languages have been influenced by Arabic too but there are differences in the amount of their borrowings. Beside the wide-extended domain of Arabic loanwords in Archaic Persian (I just mentioned) we have many structural Arabic words in Daily Persian of which all of their Iranian equivalents are widely use in Kurdish. Loanwords such as êsm “name” Kurdish “naw/nam”, qelb “heart” Kurdish “dill/zill”, êntêxâb kardan “to choose” Kurdish “helbijartin”, mêllet “nation” Kurdish “netewe”, merîz (occasionally “naxoþ”) “ill” Kurdish “nexweþ, bêmar”, memnûn, moççekkêr (~ “mêrsî” < French merci) “thanks” Kurdish “sipas”, teqsîr, xeta “foul, mistake” Kurdish “fît, kêmasî” (“xeta” occasionally), qedem zeden “to walk” Kurdish “gam/kam lê dan”, me’zêret xasten (also bexþîden < Pahlavi bexþîþn) “to foregive, pardon” Kurdish “borîn, paþan, bexþîn”, sêda kerden/zeden “to call” Kurdish “gal/kal kirdin”, sêda “voice, noise” Kurdish “deng, feng, bang”, mescêd “mosque” Kurdish “mizgût”, teqlîd “imitate” Kurdish “lasayî”, cehennem “hell” Kurdish “doje” (also “cehennem”), tela (“zer” occasionally) “gold” Kurdish “zêrr”, seherî “a tradition of Ramadan month” Kurdish “paþêw”, ofoq “horizon” Kurdish “aso”, esr “afternoon” Kurdish “êware”, fesl “season” Kurdish “werz” (southern dialects also “fesl”), þûrû “start” Kurdish “sereta” (“þiro” occasionally), be’d (then, after) Kurdish “diwa/dima”, mês-ê (mêsl-ê) “like, same” Kurdish “wek, wêne, mîna”, mês-ê în kê “to seem, to sound” Kurdish “wekçitê”, tôr (= çê tôr) “how, kind” Kurdish “çon” , ziyad “much, very” Kurdish “miþe, fire” (northern dialects also “zêde”), êþq “love” Kurdish “evîn, lawe” (also “eþq”), evez kerden “to change” Kurdish “gozandin”, evezi “wrong, incorrect” Kurdish “pêçewane”, xatêrê “memory” Kurdish “bîr/wîr”, comê “Friday” Kurdish “înî” (southern dialects also “cim’e”), terîf kerden “to describe” Kurdish “dûpat kirdinewe”, mosafêret kerden “to travel" Kurdish “rêþtin”, herf zeden “to talk” Kurdish “rawêj, qise kirdin, axawtin”, sohbet kerden “to talk” Kurdish “rawêj, qise kirdin, axawtin”, beled buden “to know (-how to do a work)” Kurdish “lêzanîn”, elan, hala “now” Kurdish “niha, niho, êsta”, þolê “flame” Kurdish “biluske, pizûske”, ferq “difference” Kurdish “ciyawazî” (“ferq” occasionally), hetta “even” Kurdish “heyan” (also “hetta”), veqt “time” Kurdish “kat, sat, tad, taw” (“veqt” occasionally), qovvê, qodret “power” Kurdish “hêz”, forset “opportunity” Kurdish “derfet”, orzê “ability” Kurdish “lêhatnewe”, êradê “will, vlolition” Kurdish “desellat”, foþ (fohþ) “insult” Kurdish “dijwên”, o (also “ve” <Arabic “we”) “and” Kurdish “û” (<Pahlavi “ûd” <Avestan “ûte”), jesed (“laþê” occasionally) “dead body” Kurdish “term, leþ/laþe”, bêdûn-ê (also “bî” <Pahlavi bê) “without” Kurdish “bê”, sabeq, qebl “former, before” Kurdish “pêþû, caran”, mexsus “special” Kurdish “taybet”, etc. ​


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## Kurdistanish

After introduction to wide-extended domain of Arabic loanwords in Persian it’s time to pay attention to the Iranian vocabulary of Kurdish and Persian both. I just open the object with these examples: 


Avestan “c” > Old Persian “c”, Parthian “j”, Kurdish “j”, Persian “z”

Avestan : Old Persian : Parthian : Kurdish : Persian : English
cen- : cen- : jen : jin, jen : zen : woman


Avestan initial “ç” > Old Persian “ç”, Parthian “ç”, Kurdish “ç”, Persian “ç”

Avestan : Old Persian : Kurdish : Persian : English 
çeþmen- : çeþe- : çew (çaw) : çêþ (çêþm) : eye


Avestan “-ç-“ > Old Persian “-ç-“, Parthian “j”, Kurdish “j/ç”, Persian “z”

Avestan : Old Persian : Parthian : Kurdish : Persian : English
heçe : heça : ej : je, ej, eç, çe : ez : from
reoçeh- : reûçeh- : roj : roj : rûz : day


Avestan “f” > Old Persian “f”, Parthian “f”, Kurdish “f/w”, Persian “f/ø”

Avestan : Old Persian : Parthian : Kurdish : Persian : English
keofe : keûfe- : kôf : kêf, kêw : kûh : mountain
----- : firemana- : fireman : firman : ferman : order



Avestan “iri” > Old Persian “er”, Parthian “ur, îr”, Kurdish “ir”, Persian “or, er, ar”

Avestan : Old Perian : Parthian : Kurdish : Persian : English
birite- : berte- : burd- : bird- : bord- : to bring
mirite- : merte- : murd- : mird- : mord- : to die
kirite- : kerte- : kîrd- : kird- : kerd- : to do
dirite- : ---- : dîrd- : dir- : dar- : have


Avestan “th” > Old Persian “ç”, Parthian “h”, Kurdish “s”, Persian “h”

Avestan : Old Persian : Parthian : Kurdish : Persian : English
evethe- : evetha : ôh : wesa, ewsa : ----- : such, like
mîthre- : mîçe- : mîhr : mêzer : mêhr : Iranian Goddess 
puthre- : puçe- : puhr : pis : pêser : boy
thirî- : çî- : hirê : sê (-sir) : sê : three 
xþethre- : xþeçe- : þehr : þar : þehr : city


Avestan “w” > Parthian “ß”*, Kurdish “w”, Persian “b”

Avestan : Parthian : Kurdish : Persian : English
ewre- : eßr* : ewr : ebr : cloud


Avestan “z” > Old Persian “d”, Parthian “z”, Kurdish “z”, Persian “d”

Avestan : Old Persian : Parthian : Kurdish : Persian : English
zan- : dan- : zan- : -zan- : -dan- : to know
zireyeh- : direyeh : zirêh : zirê, zê : derya : sea
ezim : edem : ez : ez : men : I


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## Kurdistanish

Though according to the above comparisons Kurdish seems to be superior in case of preserving Old Iranian morphologic and phonetic but Persian shows such superiority in some cases too. For example Avestan m, p, xþn > Kurdish w/m, w/p, n, but Persian m, p, þn e.g. Avestan çeþmen-, ap-, espe-, roxþne- > Kurdish çaw (çew), aw, esp, ron, but Persian çêþ(m), ab, esp, roþen (rûþen); respectively mean “eye”, “water”, “horse”, “light”.
In case of preserving Iranian vocabulary Kurdish just presents a magnificent aspect. Fro example we have “giyan” in Kurdish and it’s equivalent in Persian “can” means “spirit, soul, life”. This word comes from Old Iranian viyane “wisdom” which has gone through a common Iranian shift v>g (such a shift exists in Kurdish and Persian both). It’s believed that this word is developed in Parthian language and thus “giyan” (> “can”) appears in Kurdish and Persian as a Parthian loanword. But it’s very interesting that the original form “viyane” still exist in Northern Kurdish dialects as “viyan” or “vîn” means “wisdom, power, ability, life”. There are some examples:

Avestan : Kurdish : Persian : English
eve : ewe : an : that
evethe : wesa : hemçîn, çonan : such, like this
er- : her- : re- : to go (present root)
îme, eêm : em : în : this
mes : mezin, mez : bozorg : big, great (~ mass)
deêve : dêw : dîv : devil
denten : dan, didan : dendûn : tooth
dirice : dirêje : dêrazî, tûl : length
eêîtî : hatin : ameden : to come
acen : ajiyan, kûþtin : koþtan : to kill
axþena : þîn, kesk : sebz : green, shining 
ehmî : ême, em : ma : we
xwe-taw : xweda, xwedê : xoda : God
hûþke : hûþk, wiþk : xoþk : dry
vehrke : gurg, werg : gorg : wolf
enye : une : zed, na- : non-
est : est, hest : ostoxûn : bone
espe : esp : esp : horse
ezim : ez : men : I
hepte : heft/hewt : heft : seven
meêsmen : mêz : þaþ, cîþ : urine, pee 
ap : aw : ab : water
ûte : û : o (ve) : and
upe : be : bê : to
urven : rûwan : rûh (revan) : soul
ûþtre : ûþtir, hûþtir : þotor : camel
ke : ke, ku : kê : that (adv. conj.)
kuda : kuda : koca : where
kuthre : kutre : koca : where
kve : kwê, kû : koca : where
gav : gaw, ga : gav : cow
gem- : gam/kam : qedem : to walk, to move
xþepen : þew : þeb : night
çît : jî, -îç, -îþ : hem : too
tep : taw, tê : teb : fever
tev- : taw-, tûwan- : tûn- : can, be able
timeh : tem : dûd : darkness/smoke
tûm : tu : to : thou
deriĝe : dêr : dîr : late
dûþ- : dij, dûj, dûþ : zêd : against, anti-
pîter : bawk, piyar : pêder : father
pirina : pirr : porr : full
bev- : bû- : þod- : to become
berizeh : berza : bolendî : height
fires- : pirs- : pors- : to ask
vate : wa, ba : bad : wind
pesû : pez, pes : gûsfend : sheep
nimah : nimêj, niwêj : nemaz : praying
xvemne : xewn : xab : sleeping
matere : dayk, mader : mader, maman : mother
ûþî : hiþ, hoþ : hûþ : mind
mez : mezin, mez : bozorg : big, great
veraze : beraz : goraz : hog, boar
nû : nû, niho : elan, hala : now
yûm : hûn, yûwe : þoma : you
sipeête : sipî, sipê : sêfîd : white
stene : zon, zom, þwên : ca, mekan : place


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## Kurdistanish

For guys aware of Iranian Languages, particularly whom live in Iran, it’s easy to get if Kurdish has preserved a pure vocabulary comparing to Persian’s vocabulary or not. I just stated so in above passages. I must add that to be pure doesn’t mean to be better or superior or anything as that. A guy claimed Kurdish is filled up with Arabic words and even insistently put Kurdish entry along with Semitic entries! I just wanted to issue Kurdish is influenced by Arabic and other foreign languages as much as the other Iranian languages (if not lesser). Unfortunately guys out of Middle East often own a few knowledge of Kurdish language. 

At the end take a look at some interesting Kurdish words:

bilûske/blêse “flame, blue light of fire”: sharing same root with English “blue” and “flame”, other Iranian languages þolê, teþ, þule, sûze. 

çum/çem “river”: could share same root with Italian cummi “river”, common Kurdish “rûbar/robar”, other Iranian languages rûd, rûdxoni, rûdxûnê, rûdxane, rûdbar, nehr, ab.

dirope/dilope “drop”: other Iranian languages qetrê, çêkkê, nuqtê.

ferîk “fresh”: in Soranî, other Kurdish varieties “ter”, “taze”, other Iranian Languages ter, taze, cedîd, nô.

hewþ “yard, house”: other Iranian languages heyat.

kûrt/kort “short”: sharing same root with it’s European equivalents “kurz”, “corto”, “curto” etc., other Iranian varieties kûta, kûtah. 

lews “lip”: in Soranî, seem to be fairly close to the Latin words such as lobus and labus, common Kurdish “lêv/w” or “lîp”, other Iranian languages leb, lô.

lîç “lake”: other Kurdish varieties “zêbar” (zê “sea” from Avestan “zireyeh” + bar “similar. suffix) and “gom” (I’m not sure but probably from Hebrew “agam”), other Iranian Languages deryaçê, hôzçê, derya. 

lîp “lip” : in Soranî, also “lêv/w”.

mele “to swim, introduce with water”: in central and southern dialects, sharing same root with common European words for sea or lake “mere”, “mar”, “mare”, “meer”, “more”, etc. Official Persian melevan “sailor” is a Kurdish loanwords comes from Kurdish word melewan (mele + wan “suffix. possessor of an act”).

note(k) “darkness, night”: in Soranî, common Kurdish “þev/w” from Avestan “xþepe-“, other Iranian Languages þeb, þeo, þô, þûm, þep.

rêk(t) “right”: in northern and central dialects, common Kurdish “rast” from Avestan “raþte-“, other Iranian Languages rast, raþt.

some “to swim”: other Kurdish varieties “ajne” (< common Iranian root “aþne”), or “mele”, other Iranian languages þêna, þênô, þenew, þîna, aþna, aþno. 

þandin (present root sên-) “to send”: other Kurdish varieties “(he)nartin”, Persian “fêrêstaden” of Parthian origin. 

wirya “aware”: in Soranî, common Kurdish “jîr” (from Avestan “cîre”), other Iranian languages zîrek, zêreng, hevas cem.


Her Þad û Bextewer Bin (~with best regards)


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## cynicmystic

Can a Kurmanji speaker understand a Sorani speaker? 

If so, what is the level of comprehension? 

Just the fact that the two main Kurdish dialects are very different from each other, and that their respective speakers find it hard to understand each other clearly shows that there is no way for you to prove conclusively that Kurdish retained the most purity of all Persian dialects. 

Is it not the case that Kurmanji is more archaic than other dialects? If so, then your whole argument fails, as there is no unity among Kurdish dialects in the first place. Some are more archaic, others are less. Some have been influenced by one language more, whereas the others have been influenced by another. These endless examples you provide do not necessarily prove in any way your argument that Kurdish has retained the purest form of Persian.


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## Kurdistanish

[cynicmystic: Can a Kurmanji speaker understand a Sorani speaker? 

If so, what is the level of comprehension? 

Just the fact that the two main Kurdish dialects are very different from each other, and that their respective speakers find it hard to understand each other clearly shows that there is no way for you to prove conclusively that Kurdish retained the most purity of all Persian dialects.

Is it not the case that Kurmanji is more archaic than other dialects? If so, then your whole argument fails, as there is no unity among Kurdish dialects in the first place. Some are more archaic, others are less. Some have been influenced by one language more, whereas the others have been influenced by another. These endless examples you provide do not necessarily prove in any way your argument that Kurdish has retained the purest form of Persian.]

You just talk in such a way that you might be fluent in both of Kurmanci and Sorani plus being widely introduced with Persian!! If I’m mistaken let me know if you are as fluent in these dialects as can distinguish their differences and clarify their oldness and position of being archaic! Difficulty in understanding, in this case, has nothing to do with the fact of being pure. In case of Kurdish language the difficulty in understanding is mainly caused by two reasons: different pronunciation and –in a lesser domain- different choice of vocabulary. I don’t want to explain differences in pronunciation just keep these in your mind e.g. K. ‘dikem’, ‘dixwem’, ‘hesp’, ‘ewr’, ‘av’; S. ‘dekem’, ‘dexwem’, ‘esp’, ‘hewr’, ‘aw’. And about different choices of vocabulary I should to say, as I ‘m sure you don’t know a bit of it, -almost- all of the differences refer to the different choices from pure Iranian vocabulary (e.g. Kurmanci/ Sorani/ English; karîn/ twanîn/ can, be able; lîstik/ geme/ game; some/ ajne, mele/ swim; stêr/ estêre/ star; etc.). Kurmanci and Sorani along with Gorani dialects together present a common Kurdish aspect in case of borrowing Arabic loanwords and especially in pronouncing them (e.g. Kurmanci/ Sorani/ Gorani/ Arabic; ella/ ella/ ella/ allah; pirtûk, kitav, kitêv/ pirtûk, kitêw/ kitêw/ kitâb; sibê/ sibê, sibeynî/ sibê/ -probably from- sabâh; etc.). In case of being more archaic no one is able to say which Kurdish speech is exactly the most archaic. For instance Kurmanci of Sarhad ‘jinike’ (~ Russian 'ženika’) meant ‘woman’ seem to be closest to its equivalent in Old Kurdish ‘cenike’, though common Kurmanci ‘jin’, Sorani ‘jin’, Gorani ‘jin’/’jen’ or Sorani/Gorani ’wişk’ meaning ‘dry’ seems to be the only probable word amongst Iranian languages in case of presenting the Median rule: Proto Indo-European ‘su’ > Median ‘f’, Avestan ‘hu’, Sanskrit ‘śu’; e.g. Proto Indo-European susko* > Median fşka* (~ fişke-*), Avestan huşka, Sanskrit ‘śuska- > Kurmaci ‘hûşk’, Sorani/Gorani ‘wişk’ and Persian ‘xoşk’. Also selecting out of different Old Iranian vocabularies obviously doesn’t mean to borrow from other languages, especially of foreign language families. There are extreme couples of such examples in Iranian languages. For example Sogdian ‘fagh’/’fugh’ and ‘chugh’ exist in Archaic Persian along with original Persian ‘bagh’ and ‘joghd’ ~ ‘lord, God’, ‘owl, bird’. Mazandarani has borrowed so many Parthian words and grammatical elements. The common Parthian ‘j’ (< Old Iranian ‘ç’/’c’) turns into ‘c’ in Mazandarani as Mazanadarani speakers essentially cannot pronounce ‘j’ (ž). But along with plenty of Parthian loanwords we just face Mazandarani ‘raz’ instead of Parthian ‘roc’ (< ‘roj’ < Avestan ‘raoçah-) ~ ‘day’, which shows an independent way of development. Anyway, I’m really bored of correcting and answering your unscientific claims and tired of arguing about a certain issue with whom that even has not a basic knowledge about the issue. If you see anything wrong in my above passages or want to add something new or anything, just gather your scientific claims in a manner respected the principles of linguistics and go on. ​


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## cynicmystic

OK, my friend...

It is quite obvious that as long as we cannot agree on a set of base assumptions, this argument is pretty much a waste of time for me. In fact, I don't care in the slightest way if you believe Kurdish has retained the purest form of all. Believe that, if you like. I don't. And, I explained quite clearly why.


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