# What is the general attitude, in your country, towards leaving the elderly at old people's homes?



## Thomas1

I was wondering how is it in your countries with the elderly; do old people's homes exist in your country? Is it normal and common to leave the elderly at old people's homes? Do many people leave there? What is your opinion on that, please? What do you think is good and what is bad in such places?


In Poland it is still considered a bad thing to do. People frown upon such acts and I quite understand that. I don't think I would ever decide to give away my parents to an old people's home--they are the persons whom I owe the most in my life and I couldn't bear a thought of leaving them in a place where they would only languish waiting for their end. There's one more thing, I saw a few times some coverages that presented the conditions in which live the residents and how they were treated, and I was shocked. They showed old people fastend with belts to their beds lying there whole days not even being able to have a glass of water. The personnel said they did that for their own "good"--stupid cows! After what I saw on TV and talked to some people who visited relatives in such places I am even more opposed to them.
The situaton in which I could imagine and justify something like that is when the elderly person wants to go to such place at their own will and is convinced about their decision, but even then I would be rathe sceptical about them doing so. Another one would be, for instance, when the all relatives of an elderly died, and there's no one to take care of them, but this a tad different kettle of fish. Perhaps, there are others that I cannot think of at the moment.

Tom


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## Carlos Palomera

In Mexico, at least from what I have seen, it has become more frequently in cities than in rural areas. And also, wealthier people tend to send their elders to such homes more often than less "fortunate" ones, as they have no time to take care of their kin.

However, and fortunately, it is still something not generalized.

Carlos


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## french4beth

I read somewhere that approximately 5% of the US elderly will end up living in a nursing home. Quality varies depending on the person's income - they are all expensive, but I have heard some real horror stories about sub-standard nursing homes that care for poor people. Among my acquaintances, friends have had to place family members in skilled nursing facilities because they could no longer care for the person at home (the patient was in extremely poor health such as advanced cancer or advanced Alzheimer's disease).

In the US, there are skilled nursing facilities that provide rehabilitation and medical care - people of any age go here, and it's become fairly common for people to go there after a hip replacement, knee surgery, etc. rather than staying in a hospital for days or weeks. 

Here are a couple of definitions from the American College of Nurse Practitioners:


> *skilled nursing facility* - is primarily engaged in providing skilled nursing care and related services for residents who require medical or nursing care; or rehabilitation services for the rehabilitation of injured, disabled, or sick persons [EDIT: can be covered by insurance]





> *nursing facility or nursing home* - is a residence facility that provides a room, meals, and help with activities of daily living and recreation... residents have physical or mental problems that keep them from living on their own... usually require daily assistance. {EDIT: not covered by insurance]


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## Thomas1

I think it is quite reasonable that when you cannot take care of an elderly at your own home because they are affected by serious health problems it would be better if they moved to a skilled nursing facility for their own good. 
Many people, however, end up in a nursing home because family don't want to take care of them. 

Tom


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## jinti

I think it all depends on the home. For instance, I wouldn't want my relatives to be in the sort of place Thomas1 described. Who would? But that's a pretty extreme example. My grandparents spent awhile in a home which was lovely, and I think even good for them. Yes, I said good for them.  

Why? Well....

1. My parents were both working at that time, and both my brother and I live far away. My grandparents needed 24-hour care. Even if one of us had quit our job to stay home with them , we could not have done as good a job as the nurses did with the numerous round-the-clock medications and shots, noticing symptoms before they became bad, diet, home visits from doctors, not to mention assisted transportation, roll-in showers, elevators, 24-hour staff.... It was very helpful to have a home help our family with a difficult time.

And what happens to people who don't have family? 


2. Stimulation from conversation and different people is important to staying alert and mentally active. (And it's fun.) 

This home was a pretty building with nice furnishings, and had a very pleasant atmosphere. The residents were bright, active people. They got together for lunch dates in the restaurant-style eating area, had their hair/nails done in the salon right there, went on little trips via the home's shuttle, had movie nights, mens' night (beer and pizza!).... Everyone had their own room (couples shared a room, of course) which they decorated, often with furniture and items from their own houses, and they visited each other often. Family members dropped by to eat together or chat. Some residents had pets, and the home itself had a cat and a dog. My mom spent almost every evening there, and even stayed overnight a couple times when she was very tired. 

But at my parents' house, there couldn't be anywhere near that degree of stimulation -- my grandparents would have been stuck on only one floor of a house in the country with no neighbors or friends near enough to visit easily....


3. Medical aid. When things happen and someone is needed right away for CPR or an ambulance, trained professionals are right there. When you live in the country and need medical help, well, it's going to take awhile. By the time it arrives, you might not need it anymore.  In this place, medical aid arrived fast, every time it was needed. 


My grandfather has since passed on, and my grandmother lives with my parents now. She's doing well (the original health crisis is over), but my father sometimes drives her back to the home to have lunch with her friends or to visit. She misses her friends there, and she is more dependent on my parents for her social life. And no more perms!  

All this is a long-winded way of saying that homes are not all as awful as the one described in the first post.


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## maxiogee

I would query the use of the words "leave" and "leaving" in the opening post and the thread title.

When my mother became too ill to look after herself, to both her and her family's satisfaction, she moved a residential facility, a step removed from a purely "nursing home".
My family and I were not really in a position to take her in, although we offered her the option that we could modify our then home and accommodate her on the ground floor. She declined. Two of my siblings live away from Dublin and she wouldn't move to them. The one sibloing who could have accomodated her physically, was not in a position to invite her to stay, for several reasons we needn't dwell on.

But, to suggest that she, or many of the residents of the home she went to, were "left" there would be very wide of the mark. My mom didn't last too long after she moved in, but in that time I came to know many of the children of the other residents from meeting them as we were coming and going.

There are some who are left - but they were probably 'left' before they moved in.

Homes in Ireland are very expensive. The average new house - three bedroms, one bathroom and maybe an en-suite shower/toilet with the master bedroom and a downstairs loo, and a lounge, dining-room and kitchen can cost anything from €250,000 - and not many families can afford the price of the extra space required to house a parent themselves. 

There comes a time when the family home becomes too much work and expense for the surviving parent (or, less often, surviving parents) and they find it a threatening thought to consider selling and moving away from their old neighbourhood. (And they usually do have to move away as 'settled' neighbourhoods don't tend to have the single-occupancy accommodation they would want, and the prices are astronomical anyway!)

It is more and more normal in Ireland for parents to go into homes - many families - as in our case - are more scattered than our parents' generations were. All my mother's siblings stayed in Ireland - one who did emigrate returned within a few years.


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## ElaineG

> It is more and more normal in Ireland for parents to go into homes - many families - as in our case - are more scattered than our parents' generations were.


 
That is true in the United States as well, and makes a big difference as compared to some other countries' approach to caring for the elderly. One of my next-door neighbors in Sicily was a blind and deaf woman in her 90s: she had a constant stream of nieces and granddaughters coming by to feed her, take her for a walk, change her, clean her apartment. It was a moving thing to see -- the inter-generational care for this woman -- but it depended on two factors not found as often in contemporary American life: 1) an extended family living in the same place and thus able to share the burden; and 2) women (and yes, they were all women) with the time during the day to perform these tasks.



> I would query the use of the words "leave" and "leaving" in the opening post and the thread title.


 
I would too. Elderly people do not stop being people when they get old. Most who I have had dealings with have been fiercely independent and had their own ideas about what was good for them. Both my great grandmother and my grandmother chose assisted living situations* near their former houses where they could remain with the friends who they had bonded with during their respective widowhoods rather than become a more isolated "dependent" in their childrens' homes. 

My partner's mother is currently dealing with the first onset of aging-related health problems. She has in-home care and assistance a few times a week, which may increase as time goes by. Even if we had space for her (and we'd have to move at enormous expense -- another bedroom/bathroom in NYC will set you back an additional $400-600,000), _she doesn't want to live with us_. She has a boyfriend and friends where she lives. She has always been an immensely private person who enjoys solitary time as well as social time, and I don't think that's likely to change as she grows older. We love her, and she us, but none of us would be made particularly happy by a shared living arrangement. 

I see the attraction to the extended-family style of care I saw in my village in Sicily. But I also saw the downside. One of my close friends there, Silvia, an 80 year old woman, died of cancer while I lived there. Her and her husband were childless, and having moved there from Rome some 35 years before, were considered "outsiders" in the town. Because the presumption in the town was that family would care for the sick and elderly, there was not any infrastructure -- never mind an assisted living facility, there wasn't even a good visiting nurse program -- for dealing with the elderly who didn't have family to look after them. Her husband did his best, and friends like me chipped in, but some one with terminal cancer like hers needed to be in a professional facility -- and there was nothing like that around.

*For non-Americans, assisted living is allows seniors to go on living in an apartment that is their own while providing a range of services, from organized outings to housecleaning to on-site medical facilities, depending on how much care they need. It is not for the acutely sick, but it is a good solution for someone not ready to live in an "institutional" atmosphere. Like all things, the more money you have, the better your options are.


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## übermönch

In my village it is generally  frowned upon, though there is a huge nursing home where those heartless townsmen leave their old ones to enjoy the nature.


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## Bonjules

ElaineG said:


> One of my next-door neighbors in Sicily was a blind and deaf woman in her 90s: she had a constant stream of nieces and granddaughters coming by to feed her, take her for a walk, change her, clean her apartment. It was a moving thing to see -- the inter-generational care for this woman -- but it depended on two factors not found as often in contemporary American life: 1) an extended family living in the same place and thus able to share the burden.


 
That's indeed the main problem: In the modern scattered and fractioned society with often husb. and wife working, who can realistically take care of their Elders even if they live close. And the problem will increase to frightening proportions as the population ages. Also: these 
places are costly.

Many are relatively cheerful, in some states in the US, eG on the East coast, the NH 'industry' (they are private businesses) is very closely regulated indeed to prevent abuse and neglect, the potential for which always exists in this situation.
The problem is that with severely, chronically ill patients (Alzheimers, for instance) it is not always clear what the best treatment is; no matter what you do many of these patients behave chaotically.
Do you seperate them in special 'wings'? (They could attack others or
'well' residents get depressed seeing them); would that make them worse?
'Chemical' of physical restraint is forbidden...
Just to touch on a few of the myriad of problems here...
The bottom line is that as a society we have decided that mobility
and possesions/making money is more important than maintaining a family
structure that made the above quoted situation possible.


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## ElaineG

> The bottom line is that as a society we have decided that mobility
> and possesions/making money is more important than maintaining a family
> structure that made the above quoted situation possible.


 
I don't think it's just about posssessions and making money.  I think a lot of people in the modern era are free to say for the first time that their deepest happiness is not found in their blood-tied families of origin but in families of affinity and similar.

I have never seen such passionate resentment of family members as I have in the village I lived in Sicily.  I always thought that this was because they were on top of each other all the time.  Yes, they loved each other, but there was bitterness, anger, jealousy, vendettas, spying, plotting -- you name it.  Economically and culturally, "getting away" and making your own life as a young adult was not possible.

Yes, their old people are well-looked after, but doesn't a young woman have a right to aspire to more?


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## Bonjules

ElaineG said:


> I don't think it's just about posssessions and making money. I think a lot of people in the modern era are free to say for the first time that their deepest happiness is not found in their blood-tied families of origin but in families of affinity and similar.
> 
> I have never seen such passionate resentment of family members as I have in the village I lived in Sicily. I always thought that this was because they were on top of each other all the time. Yes, they loved each other, but there was bitterness, anger, jealousy, vendettas, spying, plotting -- you name it. Economically and culturally, "getting away" and making your own life as a young adult was not possible.
> 
> Yes, their old people are well-looked after, but doesn't a young woman have a right to aspire to more?


 
You can turn it any way you want: it still is an expression of
the "Me First" society.


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## ElaineG

> You can turn it any way you want: it still is an expression of
> the "Me First" society.


 
If that's what it is, I don't think it's such a bad thing. Although that's not how I would characterize it. I just don't think people are obligated to sacrifice their happiness for other individuals just because those people happen to be their blood relatives.

Besides, as I said, I guess most of the older generation that I know here in the U.S. is affected by what you call "me firstism", cause they have exhibited precious little desire to become dependent on their children and relatives. Many of them move off to other parts of the country -- Arizona, Florida, etc. -- despite their childrens' (my) generation's expectations that they would hang out and be cuddly grandparents.

But I think these are highly personal decisions.  If you have decided to care for your elderly relatives in your home, BonJules, I think that's awesome and I'm glad you are doing it if it makes you happy!


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## Bonjules

Elaine,
no need to turn this into a discussion about personal preferences or ethics. Sure, most of us will do what they percieve as 'best for them'.
  All I am pointing out is that this is the trend, fanned by the demands
of a society that focuses on the creation and 'fulfillment' of individual desires.
   The cosequences of all this, as shown in numerous studies on the demise of traditional family structures are complex and far reaching;
they are certainly beyond the topic here.
    The social 'cost' of this trend is just barely coming apparent and goes
way beyond Elder care; considering it all, you might want to think twice
before deciding it's such a great thing.


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## ElaineG

> a discussion about personal preferences or ethics


 
What is this if not that? After all, our cultural preferences and ethics are just an amalgation of personal preferences and ethics, and no one can speak intelligently about a subject they don't have a personal viewpoint on.



> The cosequences of all this, as shown in numerous studies on the demise of traditional family structures are complex and far reaching;


 
I can't claim to have "considered it all", but having lived in societies ranging from the highly traditional (Rwanda/Sicily) to the much less so (urban Scotland) to very much not traditional at all (NYC), I have spent a lot of time thinking about the plusses and the minuses. Traditional family structures have their benefits; they also produce a lot of human misery. Blood ties are not the only ties, and other relationships are worth valuing as well.

If you have particular studies that you believe bear on the topic, it is probably better to cite to them rather than contentlessly assert that they exist.


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## GenJen54

Bonjules said:


> The social 'cost' of this trend is just barely coming apparent and goes
> way beyond Elder care; considering it all, you might want to think twice
> before deciding it's such a great thing.


 
What about the social "cost" of those family members who are put into the place of "caretakers."

Much research has also been conducted on the toll born by the "sandwich" generation, bound by society to care for their elderly parents, as well as their children, in addition to the "good" that elderly living in care centers can bring.

I have seen the bad side these "expectations" can place on a family. When my great-grandmother moved in with her daughter (my mom's mom), as was family "tradition," my grandfather, who had until that time enjoyed his status as king in his own household, was subjected to constant scrutiny and insult by his mother-in-law. Instead of focusing his rage outwardly, he turned to the bottle, and was an alcoholic for thirty years, until his death at the age of 89. 

My grand-mother insisted my mother follow the same tradition. So, upon my grandfather's death, she moved in with my parents. She had her own room, a private bath and living area, as well as a kitchenette, all re-done for her in the upstairs portion of my parents' home. She was miserable for two years, and bore her ill will on my mother, who had to seek counseling for it. 

When my grandmother finally decided to move into a "life care" center, first having her own apartment, it did wonders for her. She had her own social circle, met many new friends, played cards several times a week, exercised, participated in craft and other classes, and even volunteered at the center's library. In short, her life was much more fulfilled than it was sitting up in my parents' home, refusing to go out or join in any elderly social activities, or even going to the local library. 

When she finally died last November, she was in a place that had 24-hour health care that could see to not only her physical (insulin dependent diabetic, toileting), but psychological needs. 

I would have to say that in her case, as may be the case for others, life in a retirement / care facility was much better, and healthier for her, that it would have been had she been under my parent's constant care.


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## Heba

The state of most of these houses is good, and the service there is good too. People who wish to volunteer to visit the residents of these houses to make them feel that they are not alone are allowed to do so, even if they do not know the residents at all.

Although the state of these houses is good, the majority still think that letting one's parents to live in a nursing facility is a bad thing. Even if it is the parent's wish, people still believe that it is the kids' fault.

It is more acceptable to hire special nurses. The grandmother of one of my friends had a special nurse who lived with her in her house and took care of her all the time.


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## coconutpalm

Firstly, I don't think there's any nursery home in the rural area.

Secondly, generally, we frown upon those who send their parents to a nursery home. Traditionally, we're supposed to take care of our parents when they grow old or fall ill. And we DO think that we should (by we, I mean those that are not morally bad, by standard of our society) 
However, there are indeed nursery homes in urban areas, and that says something. Rich people are more likely to do this, too.

Finally, I have to say that I understand why Thomas used the word "leave". Actually, both sides, parents and children, would mostly feel it's abandonment, however willingly or unwillingly they are.


I think there's something culturally differences between different attitudes.
Traditionally in our country, parents do nearly everything for children. In the past, even in many many cases today, parents either didn't have enough money left for themselves or continued spending their money/care on their children and grandchildren when their children have grown up . That's why we emphasize so much on "repaying" our parents.


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## maxiogee

coconutpalm said:


> Finally, I have to say that I understand why Thomas used the word "leave". Actually, both sides, parents and children, would mostly feel it's abandonment, however willingly or unwillingly they are.



I disagree.
In many cases it is not 'leave', but rather 'entrust'.

As for the comments about the "me first" approach to life, surely society is not creating or encouraging the creation of this approach to life, rather more and more individuals are discovering that one can set and achieve goals which are not dependent on one's familial relationships. 

I am thinking of a very gifted ballet dancer I know. The father left the family home when she and her brother were very young (I've known them all my life and never knew he existed until I heard that on her 21st birthday he gave her a car) for reasons we, their neighbours never knew. She gave up her career to look after her mother, and assist her in the small business she ran, a small maternity home. She is typical of many Irish women going back over generations who found that their mothers obligated them to stay and look after them - generally having to give up whatever dreams and aspirations they had along the way of careers and marriage. 

And you feel you can accuse those who don't fall for their mothers' me first-ism of being me firsters! Mothers have been doing this for generations! (I say mothers as they tend, in most societies, to outlive their partners.) The levels of resentment and bitterness which this can engender are staggering.

Why should anyone think that an untrained relative is the best person to look after an elderly parent, with all the conditions and ailments that they become prone to?


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## coconutpalm

However, how about if the daughter feels, culturally, psychologically, personally, that she is willing to give up her dreams to take care of her mother? 

I'm not accusing those that really don't have the ability to take care of their parents. As far as I know, people only feel pitiful for these kinds of people. 

I'm talking about those that do have the ability to take care of their parents. Even if it poses some difficulty for them, it's their(our) obligation. 

And that's Chinese way of thinking. Surely the western world has a different culture, society, and states in quo, despite the fact that the world is developing towards rougly the same direction. 

Economy decides many many things, if not everything. Many farmers work their whole life to help their children go to university and all they are left with is huge debt. Who else except their children can help them?


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## Victoria32

Thomas1 said:


> I was wondering how is it in your countries with the elderly; do old people's homes exist in your country? Is it normal and common to leave the elderly at old people's homes? Do many people leave there? What is your opinion on that, please? What do you think is good and what is bad in such places?
> 
> 
> In Poland it is still considered a bad thing to do. People frown upon such acts and I quite understand that. I don't think I would ever decide to give away my parents to an old people's home--they are the persons whom I owe the most in my life and I couldn't bear a thought of leaving them in a place where they would only languish waiting for their end. There's one more thing, I saw a few times some coverages that presented the conditions in which live the residents and how they were treated, and I was shocked. They showed old people fastend with belts to their beds lying there whole days not even being able to have a glass of water. The personnel said they did that for their own "good"--stupid cows! After what I saw on TV and talked to some people who visited relatives in such places I am even more opposed to them.
> The situaton in which I could imagine and justify something like that is when the elderly person wants to go to such place at their own will and is convinced about their decision, but even then I would be rathe sceptical about them doing so. Another one would be, for instance, when the all relatives of an elderly died, and there's no one to take care of them, but this a tad different kettle of fish. Perhaps, there are others that I cannot think of at the moment.
> 
> Tom


Unfortunately, it is very common here in New Zealand... I have worked in such homes, as has my daughter in law, disgusting horrible places! I would rather die than go to such a place when I am old... In my father's culture (north of England) it's unheard of... at least when he was there.


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## Sallyb36

I also used to work in  nursing homes, and would never leave any of my relatives in one.  I also would never want to go to one when i get old.  THe nursing care was good, and most of the people who worked there were nice and cared for the people they were looking after, but it only takes one person who doesn't really care to make an old persons life a misery, and there is always one.


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## Bonjules

Hola,
There is no doubt that care homes, Nursing Homes or whatever you call
them need to exist, particularly for those who need help and have no other place to go. It is also true, that some residents manage to be part
of a 'social circle', form friendships and are reasonably happy. 
However, as most of us who have spent some time in these places (and I have, many hours, in several different ones) seem to agree, they are mostly very sad ones. Part of this is unavoidable, folks are sick, incapacitated, lonely, with family often far away. 
The saddest situations are of course the ones of 'residents' who don't know anymore who they are: Here it is becoming apparent that we have not come to terms whith what life or life in dignity means. Those people we are just 'warehousing' for want of a better term; wandering hulls and caricatures  of their former selves. I often wondered what the motives of their next of kin was for prolonging this sad and degrading situation.


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## Victoria32

Bonjules said:


> The saddest situations are of course the ones of 'residents' who don't know anymore who they are: Here it is becoming apparent that we have not come to terms whith what life or life in dignity means. Those people we are just 'warehousing' for want of a better term; wandering hulls and caricatures  of their former selves. I often wondered what the motives of their next of kin was for prolonging this sad and degrading situation.


Probably, it is just that they do not want to let them go!


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## Bonjules

Victoria32 said:


> Probably, it is just that they do not want to let them go!


 
I'm afraid it's a little more complicated than that since
'they' are already 'gone'; that is what made them
who they were, their unique humanness is gone.
All that remains is a body that somewhat resembles
who they were.


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## Victoria32

Bonjules said:


> I'm afraid it's a little more complicated than that since
> 'they' are already 'gone'; that is what made them
> who they were, their unique humanness is gone.
> All that remains is a body that somewhat resembles
> who they were.


That is true, and my parents died when they were young, so we did not have to face this situation, my siblings and I, but I have a friend whose mother has senile dementia. My friend cares for her mother at home (and a son who has ADHD, I don't know how she copes.) 

I think it is because of the memory of what Clare was, rather than what she is - that and the fact that you do what you have to do...


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## jimreilly

While I was growing up, my maternal grandmother lived with us until her death. While this situation was not conflict free, it was a blessing for the most part. I will forever treasure her memory and all the gifts of devotion she lavished upon me and my sister.

But...my mother did not work outside the home. In today's families both spouses often (usually) have jobs. If the care needed by the parent is great, who is to do it? Sometimes it's economically possible for one spouse to quit a job, but sometimes it is not. And if one is single, one cannot _not_ work, or one loses one's own health insurance and any economic viability. The sad fact is that our society and economic culture often make such arrangments--nursing homes, other communities for the elderly--more common than they should be.

It is not always a question of "me first". I have a friend, a school teacher, who left a happy life in Minnesota and returned to his home city in Ohio to be close to his mother, who is now in a nursing home. Since he is nearby he can visit her frequently to insure that she receives the best possible care. But he cannot afford to give up his job and care for her full time.


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## SaritaSarang

In the u.s its kinda mixed, some people don't think its right, some don't care. But I know there are tons of homes where I live. You'de be surprised how many elderly people actually just live in their houses, and many have a nurse come out to their home daily or even live with them.  This is actually quite common.


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## Victoria32

jimreilly said:


> While I was growing up, my maternal grandmother lived with us until her death. While this situation was not conflict free, it was a blessing for the most part. I will forever treasure her memory and all the gifts of devotion she lavished upon me and my sister.
> 
> But...my mother did not work outside the home. In today's families both spouses often (usually) have jobs. If the care needed by the parent is great, who is to do it? Sometimes it's economically possible for one spouse to quit a job, but sometimes it is not. And if one is single, one cannot _not_ work, or one loses one's own health insurance and any economic viability. The sad fact is that our society and economic culture often make such arrangments--nursing homes, other communities for the elderly--more common than they should be.
> 
> It is not always a question of "me first". I have a friend, a school teacher, who left a happy life in Minnesota and returned to his home city in Ohio to be close to his mother, who is now in a nursing home. Since he is nearby he can visit her frequently to insure that she receives the best possible care. But he cannot afford to give up his job and care for her full time.


My paternal  uncle looked after my grandparents, and my brother cared for  my mother even though he was still really only a child... it had a profound effect on him right up until his own death in 2004. (His sisters, me included were married and/or otherwise unavailable. 

In New Zealand it is a _little_ easier as there are specific welfare benefits for those caring for relatives with disabilities including those which are age-related, but it is still a huge strain.

I second Pete Townsend who said "I hope I die before I get old", but the reason for that, is that I don't want my sons to experience what my brother and uncle did...


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## maxiogee

Victoria32 said:


> I second Pete Townsend who said "I hope I die before I get old", but the reason for that, is that I don't want my sons to experience what my brother and uncle did...



I think it is generally accepted that this line was in keeping with the generational differences theme of the song.

People try to put us d-down (Talkin' 'bout my generation) 
Just because we g-g-get around (Talkin' 'bout my generation) 
Things they do look awful c-c-cold (Talkin' 'bout my generation) 
Yeah, I hope I die before I get old (Talkin' 'bout my generation)​
He's talking about mental oldness, not physical.


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## Etcetera

In Russia, the general attitude is negative (and what would you expect?), but some people still prefer to leave their older relatives in such homes, especially when these relatives are suffering from some serious illness. To say the truth, I can understand them, it's very hard to care for an ill person. But I am sure that it's our duty to care about our parents, because there was time when they care about us. 
My great-grandmother died at the age of 95. Till her last days she stayed at her house with her daughter - my mother's aunt - and grandson. We visited her occasionally. She was in a relatively good condition, but at such an age... well, you understand. But her daughter preferred to take care of her mother herself.


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## beakman

Etcetera said:


> In Russia, the general attitude is negative (and what would you expect?), but some people still prefer to leave their older relatives in such homes, especially when these relatives are suffering from some serious illness. To say the truth, I can understand them, it's very hard to care for an ill person. But I am sure that it's our duty to care about our parents, because there was time when they care about us.
> My great-grandmother died at the age of 95. Till her last days she stayed at her house with her daughter - my mother's aunt - and grandson. We visited her occasionally. She was in a relatively good condition, but at such an age... well, you understand. But her daughter preferred to take care of her mother herself.


Yes, maybe it was her own decision, although I doubt... I think probably she had no election and she just had to do it herself. If not, who whould have done it? Other relatieves, friends, state serverces? I doubt, nowhere people want to share so painful and difficult duties without anything in return. And people who suffer mental and phisical incapacity are still people and they deserve to be treated as so... Unfortunately, when you are poor you can't do nothing to help the persons with this kind of problems so that it wasn't humiliating both to this person and youself. You only do what you can: become the nurse for this person, doing and covering all her/ his needs, cleanliness, feeding, calming him/ her down when crises, making enormous efforts and spoiling your health at it, forgetting your previous/ present/ future life, forgetting enjoying sleeping and eating, forgetting your own family/ children/ having your own projects, renouncing your aspirations and life joys... till the end...So, I think saying "she preferred to" is out of place.


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## Victoria32

maxiogee said:


> I think it is generally accepted that this line was in keeping with the generational differences theme of the song.
> 
> 
> People try to put us d-down (Talkin' 'bout my generation)​
> Just because we g-g-get around (Talkin' 'bout my generation) ​
> Things they do look awful c-c-cold (Talkin' 'bout my generation) ​
> Yeah, I hope I die before I get old (Talkin' 'bout my generation) ​
> He's talking about mental oldness, not physical.


Yes, but it still applies! (Maybe even just as much, if not more... )


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## Seana

As long as people are in the full intellectual awareness it should be used the word ‘leave’ and square metres of floor surface of your flat has nothing to this matter.
Fortunately as for now it doesn't concern me personally but who knows what would be my decision when I will be face with this problem .


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## french4beth

Bonjules said:


> The saddest situations are of course the ones of 'residents' who don't know anymore who they are: Here it is becoming apparent that we have not come to terms whith what life or life in dignity means. Those people we are just 'warehousing' for want of a better term; wandering hulls and caricatures of their former selves. I often wondered what the motives of their next of kin was for prolonging this sad and degrading situation.


I don't quite understand your comment, bonjules - if the person has become a danger to either themselves, their family, and/or their caregiver, isn't it best to place them in a safe, medically supervised facility where they will receive appropriate care?!? And your last sentence about "prolonging this sad and degrading situation" - personally, I know of many situations in which the heart-wrenching decision was made to place a patient in a skilled nursing facility. The patient was in danger, and the family members could not physically or emotionally care for the family member. What alternative do you propose in this case?


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## Etcetera

Beakman, I would rather you didn't try to figure out *my *relatives' thoughts and motives. You can't know them.


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## Bonjules

do 





french4beth said:


> I don't quite understand your comment, bonjules - if the person has become a danger to either themselves, their family, and/or their caregiver, isn't it best to place them in a safe, medically supervised facility where they will receive appropriate care?!? And your last sentence about "prolonging this sad and degrading situation" - personally, I know of many situations in which the heart-wrenching decision was made to place a patient in a skilled nursing facility. The patient was in danger, and the family members could not physically or emotionally care for the family member. What alternative do you propose in this case?


Beth, did you read all the posts? Not so much the act of placement,
the existence itself in such a state I find degrading, the more so, the more
brilliant the 'person' once was. What is 'appropriate' care at this point?
It is ironic that we claim all this fancy and special state for us that makes
us supposedly human in the animal world and when it comes to the end
we define 'life' by the most basic biological functions: Eating, breathing, circulation,
eliminating. Your household pet has a much higher level of conciousness
at this point.( we do have 'brain dead' but are not applying it to the completely demented patient)
I hate to even use the word 'patient' here, because everything you do to one is technically assault, only excused by express or implied consent.
This consent is obviously impossible here, but, indeed, having taken care of a lot of
these 'patients' I often wondered if they would forgive me for treating them in that state (if their spirits could somehow watch us and see what was going on) or if they would turn to me, horrified, and scream at me:
'What do you think you are doing'?
I for my part have clear instructions (everybody should!):
If I don't have my wits about me an am not likely to get them back: Don't intervene in any way. No medicine, no IV's etc. If I can't feed myself, don't you dare to feed me or give me an IV, unless I clearly indicate that that's what I want...


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## maxiogee

Bonjules said:


> I for my part have clear instructions (everybody should!):
> If I don't have my wits about me an am not likely to get them back: Don't intervene in any way. No medicine, no IV's etc. If I can't feed myself, don't you dare to feed me or give me an IV, unless I clearly indicate that that's what I want...



And if a week after you die there comes a cure/treatment what will your loved ones feel then - that they stood idly by, not knowing what was going on inside your head, and did nothing for someone they loved. 

You strike me as supremely selfish.

In any relationship there is the loved and the lover - and both should be considerate of the feelings of the other.
As you can place yourself in the situation of the lover, and you can imagine what it would be like watch a loved one be allowed to die, you owe it to them to not put them into that terrible situation.

Your loved ones, on the other hand, will not be able to put themselves into your situation, and will be unable to imagine what you wish, as you will be a mystery to them at that time. They will surely want to do whatever they feel will make your last days comfortable and free of hopelessness - and if they are wrong, and what they do doesn't comfort you or give you hope, then what harm? If you are unable to experience the comfort or their love, then will you be able to experience the 'abuse' or 'assault' or even the loss of your dignity, which is what troubled me most about the final days of both my parents, the indignity of helplessness.

You need to see both sides of this relationship.


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## french4beth

OK, Bonjules, now I understand - I think you're talking about _quality_ of life and living wills (in which you stipulate at what point you want no "heroic measures" to be taken to prolong your life) which has been discussed in previous threads such as this one or that one  or the one here (or if it hasn't been adequately explored, we can definitely open a new thread).  I see your point - however, who would make the decision as to when the person's life is no longer worth living? I think that skilled nursing facilities and nursing homes are a viable alternative, even if the person is only a "shell" of their former self.  Better a nursing home than to destroy the health of the caregiver...


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## beakman

Etcetera said:


> Beakman, I would rather you didn't try to figure out *my *relatives' thoughts and motives. You can't know them.


but I can guess them...
I really didn't figure out anything. (I know, I don't know you mother's aunt, but I can understand her because I also had similar situation...) anyway, I beg you pardon if I hurt your feelings (presumedly, I could hurt you only if you did live the situatian I have mentioned). Besides, I haven't spoken about _your relatives_... It was just my reflection...and my own experience...it were just my feelings... It's sooooo difficult to take care of incapable persons and more if they have some mental disease or premature dementia when you are alone. I have experienced it. So, I repeat, it was only some paintful reflection, nothing personal...

As for old people's homes, I don't know what is correct... I only can say that people have to have some help in such situations. Maybe, this kind of "homes" with medical care and nursery is a solution if you can afford them, I don't know...


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## Bonjules

maxiogee said:


> And if a week after you die there comes a cure/treatment what will your loved ones feel then - that they stood idly by, not knowing what was going on inside your head, and did nothing for someone they loved.
> 
> You strike me as supremely selfish.
> 
> In any relationship there is the loved and the lover - and both should be considerate of the feelings of the other.
> .


 
Max, you have me supremely stumped about what all this could possibly
have to do do with being selfish. It's called taking responsibility for your own life and I don't mind taking my chances on your miracle cures. A brain destroyed by dementia is dead and won't by restored; if they ever
're-grow' brains (God forbid, but at this point it looks they are going
to stop at nothing)it wouldn't be 'yours' anyway.
Selfish is exactly the opposite, to dump all these decisions in your family's lap. This is cruel, given society's reluctance to honestly confront
what 'human' ,life, death, any of these things are in a context od dignity and decency. In this quagmire they are going to feel guilty no matter what they decide
( and stop slobbering about 'love' here, please; you are really pulling
my and everybody's leg here aren't you, Maxi)
cheers


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## dv8

In Dominican Republic (where i live now) leaving an old person in a care home would give a family a social stigma forever. Places like this do exist, they are extremely sad houses populated excusively by those who have no relatives left, are never visitd and die a very lonely death. It is normal for a family to take care of its old but unlike in "civilized" countries, where time and money are the issues, families in third world are pretty big, there is always someone at home to take care of the eldery, and one more mouth to feed is not much of a problem in a household of 16... Rich families present slightly different attitude, high social class is extremely concerened about the opinion others they may have about them. Thus they will keep, feed and take care of an old person out of social resposiblity more than of that of a heart. It has to be said however that rich people donate lots of money and goods to old people's houses and orphanages as they are solely supported by private funds, not by a government.


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## maxiogee

Bonjules said:


> ( and stop slobbering about 'love' here, please; you are really pulling
> my and everybody's leg here aren't you, Maxi)
> cheers



If you wish to refer to talk about your love for your loved ones as "slobbering" then that's your privilege, and maybe your feelings also. I don't.

The selfishness is in the haste to deprive your loved ones - next of kin of any emotional leave-taking they may wish for.
By all accounts it won't matter to you one way or the other, so why deprive them?
Do you think that, acting on the medical (and maybe religious) advice available to them, they would take decisions which they would later come to regret? You think too little of them, if you do. It will be, don't forget, their leavetaking of you as much as it is your's from them. That is why I mentioned them.
They feature in the drama. You would seem to think that that only have a walk-on, silent rôle in it. I would suggest to you that they will be the major actors at that time, and by the premise here, your rôle will be the silent one.


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## Bonjules

french4beth said:


> OK, Bonjules, now I understand - I think you're talking about _quality_ of life and living wills (in which you stipulate at what point you want no "heroic measures" to be taken to prolong your life) which has been discussed in previous threads such as this one or that one or the one here (or if it hasn't been adequately explored, we can definitely open a new thread). I see your point - however, who would make the decision as to when the person's life is no longer worth living? I think that skilled nursing facilities and nursing homes are a viable alternative, even if the person is only a "shell" of their former self. Better a nursing home than to destroy the health of the caregiver...


  I know we are skating a little off the ice here, Beth (thanks, mods), but it is important.
Yes, but it goes way beyond 'heroic measures'. What I'm saying is when I'm not 'me' any more, let me go in peace and don't pretend I'm still 'bonjules'
(haha). YOU can decide the point at which you are ready: A good one
would be when you don't recognize anybody any more. This is not so
difficult to ascertain.


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## Bonjules

maxiogee said:


> The selfishness is in the haste to deprive your loved ones - next of kin of any emotional leave-taking they may wish for.
> By all accounts it won't matter to you one way or the other, so why deprive them?
> Do you think that, acting on the medical (and maybe religious) advice available to them, they would take decisions which they would later come to regret? You think too little of them, if you do. It will be, don't forget, their leavetaking of you as much as it is your's from them. That is why I mentioned them.
> They feature in the drama. You would seem to think that that only have a walk-on, silent rôle in it. I would suggest to you that they will be the major actors at that time, and by the premise here, your rôle will be the silent one.


Cut the sentimentality, if you like that better, Maxi.
Don't you get it? I have dealt with too many families in these situations
and I can tell you: They feel terrible because either alternative is higly unpleasant. Other than in situations like accidents, where they didn't have
a chance to 'mourn' yet, here they had a lot of time to mourn already
(Interstingly, it was always the folks who had shown the least interest and visited the least - like the ones furthest away -who always wanted to prolong things...-guilt! Fair to the (former)person?
The only decent thing is to decide as much as humanly possible yourself.

PS. Another unsettling aspect of this is that of course only families who truly were fond of the
the person he/she used to be feel terrible. Sometimes you are not sure about the motives of decision-makers and there is no mechanism to really examine them. We give family a lot of leeway and question them little; unfortunately there are situations when this is highly naive.
Another good reason to decide things yourself!


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## Seana

You are right But last few your posts were concentrating mainly on the problem of decision to be or not to be kept alive. 
But let's cut right to the chase. The topic is 'attitude,(...) old people's homes'
In my opinion many times these elderly people (note I talk about our parents) require only the regular meals, little smile, dosing medicine and at last the death with dignity among own children or closest family. 
But unfortunately we have too little home, too little time, we must work, study...we can't, we are not able... and so on so on. 
PS as far as I know stopping dosing medicine, or remove respirator or gastric feeding tube (Terri) is also seen as a sort of euthanasia.


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## Etcetera

beakman said:


> but I can guess them...


Can you? People are different. 



> I really didn't figure out anything. (I know, I don't know you mother's aunt, but I can understand her because I also had similar situation...) anyway, I beg you pardon if I hurt your feelings (presumedly, I could hurt you only if you did live the situatian I have mentioned). Besides, I haven't spoken about _your relatives_... It was just my reflection...and my own experience...it were just my feelings... It's sooooo difficult to take care of incapable persons and more if they have some mental disease or premature dementia when you are alone. I have experienced it. So, I repeat, it was only some paintful reflection, nothing personal...


 Then, I might have misunderstood you. But even so, you should have said that you're speaking about *your own *experience.


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## Bonjules

dv8 said:


> In Dominican Republic (where i live now) leaving an old person in a care home would give a family a social stigma forever. Places like this do exist, they are extremely sad houses populated excusively by those who have no relatives left, are never visitd and die a very lonely death. It is normal for a family to take care of its old but unlike in "civilized" countries, where time and money are the issues, families in third world are pretty big, there is always someone at home to take care of the eldery, and one more mouth to feed is not much of a problem in a household of 16... Rich families present slightly different attitude, high social class is extremely concerened about the opinion others they may have about them. Thus they will keep, feed and take care of an old person out of social resposiblity more than of that of a heart. It has to be said however that rich people donate lots of money and goods to old people's houses and orphanages as they are solely supported by private funds, not by a government.


 
Very interesting, your comment, dv8, about the Dom. Rep.; not surprising
that in a relatively poor country the family support structures are still
more intact. Also very observant about the attitude of richer folk.
  You mention money a couple of times; money is of course the big
800 lb gorilla in the room nobody wants to talk about.
 Most (all?) Nursing homes in the US are private businesses. Where I worked they had beds(!) or wings set aside for residents on public assistance (medicaid etc) and recieved the assigned payments for those.
 With the likelihood of cutbacks in both Health expenditure and Public
assistance, the question looms what will happen with the indigent.
NH's are not in the 'charity' business; they are driving a hard, hard
competition in many places. For the poor and elderly, the future
does not look good.
  Do you know if Elder Care is still considered a public responsibility
in Poland or what the quality of the care is?


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## Chtipays

jinti said:


> I think it all depends on the home. For instance, I wouldn't want my relatives to be in the sort of place Thomas1 described. Who would? But that's a pretty extreme example. My grandparents spent awhile in a home which was lovely, and I think even good for them. Yes, I said good for them.


  I think that is a good point, jinti, sometimes they could be better in a good nursing home than at their family home.

 I remember my grandpa staying at our place when I was little and how it was kind of sad that at some point he could not walk and nobody was there to stay by his side, he didn't have anybody to talk with. But in small towns in Mexico people don't send their elderly away. 

I have a Mexican friend married to a French lady and he hates that most people here don't take care of their old family themselves. He keeps saying that after retirement he is going back to Mexico, of course, he forgets that his children are French 
I would prefer to be in a nursing home than bother other members of my family.


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## Trisia

The general attitude... I would say that over here we tend not to like those homes that much. With good reason, too. Government funded homes for the elderly are scary places, understaffed with overworked irritable nurses, who try all they might simply cannot properly tend to all the patients in their care. That's where the "poor people nobody cares for anymore" go.

There are very few private institutions at this point, and they're more than expensive for the average person (true, they're lovely places with very nice staff members who wouldn't dream of shouting or hitting the ones in their care, like it sometimes happens in those homes I mentioned earlier). So basically, if you love your old relative and you don't happen to have a huge income, caring for her/him at home is the only viable alternative (you can also hire a private nurse, it's a lot cheaper than sending the elderly off to a home, but still difficult for the lower-middle class). If they have Alzheimer's or another form of dementia... I'm afraid that many times it's off to the loony bin with them.

Right now, the way things are looking, I'd also rather die before I'm too old to take care of myself.


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## WadiH

It's still considered very shameful where I come from.  In fact I would venture to say that if there's one practice associated with "Western" culture that people in the Middle East find most apalling, it would be this.


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## nichec

I wonder if this kind of nursing homes even exist in Taiwan. If any Taiwanese tells me he/she is sending his/her parents to a nursing home, my first reaction would be "Oh, really? Where is that?" I don't know any Taiwanese who does that.

It's common enough among my American and French friends, we had a discussion about this in my French class long time ago, my French teacher, a very elegant lady, told us she could never imagine herself doing that, and the truth is, she lived with her mom.

Both my grandmoms have 24-7 day care nurse living with them. That's usually the way it is in Taiwan, I believe, to have a day care. Years ago, my mom's mom moved in with my parents, it seemed to be a logical choice at that time, because among my grandmom's 6 kids, my mom was the only one who's available 24-7 and well off enough to take care of her. But from what I heard, things didn't go well, I wasn't there to see what happened between them, but I know both my mom and my grandmom were very unhappy in the end, actually, they were so unhappy that my grandmom decided to move back with my uncle, and my mom hired a day care to live with her in my uncle's house.

My mom was totally against the idea before, she's a very traditional person, but after that, she kept telling me and my sister "Send me to a nursing home when I am old and bad-tempered and difficult." I know she will never move in with me because she doesn't want to live abroad, and it's a cruel thing to do to take her to a place where she doesn't speak the language, doesn't know anyone and so on.

As usual, I don't like to judge people and the decisions they make for their own lives, I didn't even comment on my mom's decision when she told me she's sending my grandmom to my uncle's house, though she told me she would like to know what I think, all I said to her was "If you think it's the best thing to do under the circumstance, then do it, I will stand by your decision."


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