# amber



## desi4life

According to Wiktionary, the word amber is ultimately derived from Middle Persian. Is that correct? What is the etymology of the Middle Persian word?

Thanks


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## bearded

desi4life said:


> ultimately derived from Middle Persian.


That is what most linguists say. However, apparently also a Germanic etymology is possible (prefix 'an' + ber= burn, see also German _Bern-stein_).
Etimologia : ambra;


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## fdb

bearded said:


> That is what most linguists say. However, apparently also a Germanic etymology is possible (prefix 'an' + ber= burn, see also German _Bern-stein_).
> Etimologia : ambra;



The problem with this suggestion is that ambra, ambre, amber is (at least originally) ambergris (a whale product), like Arabic 'anbar, and that this name was only secondarily transferred to Bernstein (a product of tree resin).


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## desi4life

Did the Middle Persian word actually refer to the whale product?


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## fdb

It is pretty much generally accepted that French _ambre_, Mediaeval Latin _ambra_ etc. were borrowed from Arabic _ʻanbar_, meaning “ambergris”. It is also likely that the Arabic word derives from Middle Persian _ambar_, with, in Arabic, a “parasitic” _ʻayn_ as in some other loan words (e.g. _ʻaskar_ from Latin _exercitus_). To my knowledge the MP _ambar_ occurs only in one passage in the _Bundahišn_, where it unambiguously means “ambergris”, not “amber/Bernstein”. The _Bundahišn_ was redacted in the Islamic period, so it is not impossible that _ambar_ is a borrowing from Arabic, rather than the other way around. However, _ambar_ occurs also in Syriac (again, it seems, only once); if Syriac had borrowed the word from Arabic one would expect it to have retained the Semitic _ʻayn_. Thus, it can be argued that Syriac _ambar_ supports the authenticity of MP _ambar_.

The main difficulty, however, is that there does not seem to be any plausible etymology for these words either in Semitic or Iranian. So maybe it is substrate word in both families.


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## bearded

fdb said:


> only secondarily transferred to Bernstein


So what you mean is, the original etymology cannot be Germanic - if I understand you correctly.


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## CyrusSH

I think the second part _bar_ means "fragrant" and it has the same origin of the word _fragrant_, there is the Iranian-origin word _boyr_ in the Old Armenian language and _boy_ in Persian.


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## PersoLatin

There's NP انگم/angom for amber which forms on fruit trees.

Maybe unrelated, but there's انگبین/angabin, honey and انگور/angur, grape, I wonder if the initial ang-, has the same meaning


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## CyrusSH

PersoLatin said:


> There's NP انگم/angom for amber which forms on fruit trees.



The word which can make a relation between _anbar_ (ambergris) and _angom_ (amber) is the Indian-origin word *agar* (agarwood).


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## CyrusSH

As I found amber was also among goods which were brought down from north Europe to Persia through Volga-Caspian trade way, so a Germanic origin is also possible about this word.


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## Treaty

Trade itself is not a sufficient reason for assuming a borrowing. Vikings exported amber not ambergris, while Persian and Arabic '_anbar _means the latter. Chronologically, the attestation the word is northward: first Arabic, then Romance, then Germanic.


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## berndf

Treaty said:


> Trade itself is not a sufficient reason for assuming a borrowing.


I think it would be.


Treaty said:


> Vikings exported amber not ambergris, while Persian and Arabic '_anbar _means the latter.


That is the real problem with the theory.


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## Treaty

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Trade itself is not a reason for but a means of borrowing. The reasons are usually like a lack of the (precise) concept of the traded item, and the prestige or prowess of the seller, etc. I don't think any of them fits in the context of amber (with either meanings) regarding Vikings vs Middle Easterns.


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## CyrusSH

bearded said:


> That is what most linguists say. However, apparently also a Germanic etymology is possible (prefix 'an' + ber= burn, see also German _Bern-stein_).





PersoLatin said:


> There's NP انگم/angom for amber which forms on fruit trees.



It is important to know what prefix _an-_ means, Persian angom actually means "gum".


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## berndf

Treaty said:


> The reasons are usually like a lack of the (precise) concept of the traded item, and the prestige or prowess of the seller, etc.


OK. I got you wrong. I thought you said, trade is not a route for loan words at all. But if the Arabic word had meant _amber _rather than _ambergris _then there would have been a reason. _Amber_ comes mainly from the Baltic Sea shore.


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## CyrusSH

Treaty said:


> Trade itself is not a sufficient reason for assuming a borrowing. Vikings exported amber not ambergris, while Persian and Arabic '_anbar _means the latter. Chronologically, the attestation the word is northward: first Arabic, then Romance, then Germanic.



In Bundahishn, _ambar_ is said to be the dung of the legendary three-legged ass, it seems to be clear that medieval Persians didn't know what it is, so the original one could be amber, not ambergris.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> In Bundahishn, _ambar_ is said to be the dung of the legendary three-legged ass, it seems to be clear that medieval Persians didn't know what it is, so the original one could be amber, not ambergris.


The use of_ ambre_ in the sense of _ambre jaune_ developed 13th century French. That is much too late and confined to European languages.

Germanic languages don't use the word _amber_. The words they use is either from the verbal root of _rub_ (Danish _rav_) or they call amber "burning stone" (_Brennstein, Bernstein, bärnsten, _from Low German) or in older High German from _agat-_ (_agate_). Only English uses amber but that is clearly a French loan  (around 1400).


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## Treaty

No one knew what it exactly is until modern times. In Mediaval tiems, they only knew it was probably from a kind of (mythical) sea creature, like the one in Bundahishn.


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> The use of_ ambre_ in the sense of _ambre jaune_ developed 13th century French. That is much too late and confined to European languages.
> 
> Germanic languages don't use the word _amber_. The words they use is either from the verbal root of _rub_ (Danish _rav_) or they call amber "burning stone" (_Brennstein, Bernstein, bärnsten, _from Low German) or in older High German from _agat-_ (_agate_). Only English uses amber but that is clearly a French loan  (around 1400).



What do you know about the name of Ambrones? It seems in the ancient time, they were famous for amber gathering.


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## fdb

Just to underline this: Persian distinguishes very clearly between ambergris (MP ambar; NP, Arabic ʻanbar) and amber/Bernstein (MP kahrubāy > Arabic kahrabāʼ; the Greek ἤλεκτρον).


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> It seems in the ancient time, they were famous for amber gathering.


They were famous for their battles when they invaded the Roman empire. They disappeared from history are quickly as they came (the tribe was eradicated in battle).


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## CyrusSH

berndf said:


> They were famous for their battles when they invaded the Roman empire. They disappeared from history are quickly as they came (the tribe was eradicated in battle).



But Geoffrey of Monmouth also talks about them in 12th century, in fact he calls the Saxons Ambrones.


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## berndf

Geoffrey was indeed a gifted story teller.


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## CyrusSH

Ambrones were probably a Celtic tribe, as you read here: River Amber - Wikipedia "The name Amber is a pre-Celtic word with uncertain meaning." 

The Celtic Encyclopedia, page 230:


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