# All dialects: non-human/inanimate plural agreement



## irshad

Hi again,
last question of the night!

Does 3amiya/ derija follow the rule that non-human plurals take feminine agreement?

thanks,
irshad.


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## be.010

Yeah somehow, but not as a rule... Also, that depends on the dialect.
As dialects are informal, it's not so odd that you hear expressions like "البواب مسكرين" (the doors are closed), though it should be (and the more common expression is) البواب مسكرة...
By the way, in this case and in other cases, 3aammiiyya in general doesn't have certain "cut and dried" rules, I think! (anyone correct me if that's wrong?!)... It's about what's commonly said in each region...

P.S. Is it ok to use "cut and dried" in this context? I heard it once and I'm not sure if it's ok here!


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## Soos

Hi.
Great question irshad. I often wondered the same thing since I have heard it several ways. What be.010 said I think is right. be.010, which do they do in Syria? I think in Lebanon they do the latter.
And as for "cut and dried" you are right. It's like saying "nothing is set in stone."


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## be.010

Soos said:


> Hi.
> be.010, which do they do in Syria? I think in Lebanon they do the latter.


 
In DAMASCUS, we'd rather use البواب مسكرة, it's normal, yet, to hear البواب مسكرين as many regional dialects use it... (I think also in Lebanon some regional dialects use this form, too! right?)
And... Regarding "cut and dried", thanks!


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## Ghabi

Hello. In Moroccan is it obligatory to use plural agreement for any plural noun, whether human or non-human? Or is it that it depends on the context? Is it possible in some cases to say, for example, _biban meshduda_ instead of _biban meshdudin_? Thanks in advance!


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## Hemza

Hello,

As in Syrian (and I think all dialects) both forms are used. You can say "biban mashduda/masduda" or "biban mashdudin/masdudin" .


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## Ghabi

Thanks for the quick reply, Hemza. Can you think of a context where you would use only one and not the other of them?


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## Hemza

I don't think it's a matter of context. It only depends of the mood of the speaker . My parents use both forms and until now, I've never succeeded to discover what make their choice ahahahaha!!! But I think (not sure) that using the plural is more common at least, for Moroccan.
Could it be the influence from French/Spanish grammar? I don't know...


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## Ghabi

Thanks again! The ancient grammarians already mentioned لغة أكلوني البراغيث, so the use of plural agreement for a non-human plural noun isn't something new, I guess. Actually, is there any chance that the more educated a speaker (or the higher a register he speaks in), the more he tends to use the singular feminine for non-human plural (because it's the rule in fuS7a)?


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## Hemza

As I don't live in Morocco and I was born abroad, I have no idea if it has something to do with the social level. As you said, more educated you are, higher is the register. But I don't know if it has something to do with this. Hope someone who lives there reply

Ps: Thanks, I learnt something new ("the use of plural agreement for a non-human plural noun isn't something new")


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## analeeh

I've seen it argued in places that at least in Syrian, this depends on how much you want to 'individuate' the different individuals making up the plural. The argument is that kind of like 'the bank is' and 'the bank are' in British English (I guess), singular feminine agreement is used if you want to emphasise the collective nature of something. According to Holes, whilst this is largely a very minor stylistic choice, there are cases where it results in a different interpretation:

الكتب ما بتهمه: books don't interest him
الكتب ما بيهموه: the books don't interest him

I'm pretty sure that the former could also have the latter interpretation, but whether the latter could be interpreted as a generic I don't know.

This happens even in Fusha - in _al-Ayyaam_ for example you have plenty of examples of broken plural adjectives (though no sound adjectives!) being used with plural inanimates. I'm pretty sure this happens in the Qur'an too. It's just in modern media MSA (not even literary MSA) that this rule holds, and it tends to be taught to learners for that reason.


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## clevermizo

I think in Levantine dialects, using plural agreement (i.e., الكتب ما بيهموه) definitely considers the books as individual items he doesn't care about, vs. الكتب ما بتهمه which sounds more like a general case. However, I think there's also a lot of free variation, and it may depend on the register the speaker is choosing to speak in, but maybe someone else can comment.


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## WannaBFluent

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
لما صارت الانتخابات، انتخبوه رئيس بلدية (Cowell's book, p329).
'When the elections took place, they elected him mayor'.

What I don't understand in this sentence is that صارت is used in the 3rd person *singular* (feminine) while الانتخابات is in the plural form. I would expect صاروا instead of صارت. Can you explain?


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## elroy

In MSA, plural inanimates take singular feminine verbs and adjectives.

This applies to Levantine as well, although plural is acceptable as well.


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## Mahaodeh

elroy said:


> In MSA, plural inanimates take singular feminine verbs and adjectives.



I believe in standard Arabic if the verb comes before the subject, the plural subject also takes a singular verb whether the subject is inanimate or not (example: حضر الرجال not حضروا الرجال but الرجال حضروا not الرجال حضر). If I recall correctly that is because the waaw in waaw Al jama3a is considered the subject and you can't have two subjects for the same verb.


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## WannaBFluent

[Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
Hi, how do you explain this : كل الدروب بتودّي عالطاحون *kéll éd-druub bétwaddi 3aT-Taa7uun* - _All the ways lead to the mill_.
*druub *_'ways', 'paths'_ is a masculine plural noun, while *bétwaddi *is the singular feminine form.
I know that inanimate subject can take singular verbal form even when they are plural, but here, the gender is also changed.

Should we consider that the subject of the verb is not *druub* but a _*dummy it*_ ?
Something like: _All the ways, it leads to the mill_.

And why using such structure, does it highlight the general sense of the sentence ?


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## Mahaodeh

WannaBFluent said:


> *druub *_'ways', 'paths'_ is a masculine plural noun



Actually, you are mistaken. druub is feminine not masculine.

You already know that for an inanimate thing you can use the singular verb even though the noun is plural so the sentence is grammatically sound.



WannaBFluent said:


> And why using such structure, does it highlight the general sense of the sentence ?



I don't know what you man by 'structure', if you mean the case mentioned above then I suppose you have it. If you mean something else, then I didn't really understand what you are referring to.


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## WannaBFluent

Thanks, is it common to have nouns masculine in the singular and feminine in the plural ?


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## analeeh

It's a basic rule in both MSA and to some extent Levantine that plurals of non-human things take feminine singular agreement.


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## WannaBFluent

Oh ok, thanks


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