# Vereinslokal



## poisongift

Was ist denn ein "Vereinslokal"? In diesem Artikel steht, dass sich die Deutschen in Kleindeutschland (New York) "erst beim Gottesdienst und dann im Vereinslokal" trafen:


> Kleindeutschland in New York
> Auf der Lower East Side entsteht Amerikas größte deutsche Enklave
> Einwandererviertel, wie sie bis heute zu unserem Bild amerikanischer Großstädte gehören, waren Anfang des 19. Jahrhunderts etwas völlig Neues sowohl in New York als auch in Amerika. Schon als New York noch Neu-Amsterdam hieß, lebten dort Deutsche, aber sie waren viel zu wenige, um als Gemeinschaft wahrgenommen zu werden.
> Mit dem Beginn der Masseneinwanderung strömten nun zum ersten Mal Tausende, später Zehntausende Immigranten in die Stadt, die – anders als die zweite große Einwanderergruppe der Iren – kein Wort Englisch sprachen und direkt vom Schiff in ein städtisches Leben in Amerika geworfen wurden, das ihnen völlig fremd war. Aus Furcht vor Isolation suchten sie instinktiv die Nähe und den Schutz ihrer eigenen Landsleute, und mit ihrer schieren Zahl bildeten sie schnell eigenständige Wohnviertel, die viele deutsche Merkmale aufwiesen.
> Die Deutschen wurden so zum Prototyp all der bunten Ethnien und ihrer Enklaven, die bis heute unsere Vorstellung von New York prägen. Auf der Lower East Side, wo alle Einwanderer neu begannen – erst die Iren und die Deutschen, gefolgt von Italienern, jüdischen Osteuropäern, später von Puertoricanern –, nahmen ganze Straßenzüge und Häuserblocks eine typisch deutsche Gestalt an, als deutschstämmige Kaufleute dort heimische Produkte anboten, Handwerker für den Bedarf der eigenen Landsleute produzierten und Biergärten nach deutschem Muster entstanden.
> *In diesem Little Germany, wie die Amerikaner es bald nannten, sprach man deutsch, heiratete untereinander, las deutschsprachige Zeitungen und traf sich sonntags erst beim Gottesdienst und dann im Vereinslokal.*
> Quelle: Stölken, Ilona. Das deutsche New York: Eine Spurensuche. Leipzig: Lehmstedt, 2013.



Zunächst habe ich gemeint, "Vereinslokal" heiße auf English "local pub", aber vielleicht passt "union house" oder "society club/house/pub" besser in diesem Zusammenhang.


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## Schimmelreiter

_​club house_


cf. _Wahllokal _(not a pub, either )

< ... >


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## Schlabberlatz

I’m not sure about this. Couldn’t it be a pub where more than one society has its "Stammtisch"?


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## poisongift

Schlabberlatz said:


> I’m not sure about this. Couldn’t it be a pub where more than one society has its "Stammtisch"?



You're a native speaker so I'll take your word for it. However, my translation studies professor (also a native German speaker) told me that "local pub" was wrong. I think I am supposed to point out that it was a meeting place for an organization or a society of some sort, i.e., they didn't just meet up to have a beer.


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## Frank78

Schimmelreiter said:


> _​club house_



 Of course it is a pub. and not just a "house", at least in German German.

For example a lot of football clubs have small pubs on their property where the members regularly go to, after training or a match but there are also non-members welcome.

"Club house" is rather "Vereinsheim", in my opinion.


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## poisongift

Frank78 said:


> Of course it is a pub.



So then what German word would you use? I'm just curious since I can't seem to come up with anything. "Club house" sound really weird, but so does "society pub" or "club pub"....


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## perpend

I think "clubhouse" is one word. Somehow, that makes me think of golf, but I guess it's the right idea.

"Club pub" sounds clumsy (with the alliteration). Merely for brainstorming, how about "club bar" / "association bar"?

EDIT: Just for kicks, I looked up "clubhouse" on LEO. It gives "Klubhaus" , and "Schützenhaus".


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## berndf

Frank78 said:


> Of course it is a pub. and not just a "house", at least in German German.


In Switzerland it is also a pub (see, e.g., here). The usage in Austria seems to be different (example). I am not a "club person" so I can't tell form own experience. At any rate, in Austria the term _Lokal _is not as firmly tied to catering as it is in Germany and Switzerland. E.g., in Austria (and in part also in Bavaria) you have terms like _Geschäftslokal _for _shop_ which would sound weird in other areas.


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> In Switzerland it is also a pub (see, e.g., here). The usage in Austria seems to be different (example). I am not a "club person" so I can't tell form own experience. At any rate, in Austria the term _Lokal _is not as firmly tied to catering as it is in Germany and Switzerland. E.g., in Austria (and in part also in Bavaria) you have terms like _Geschäftslokal _for _shop_ which would sound weird in other areas.


_Lokal
Raum für verschiedene Zwecke der Zusammenkunft;  fester Versammlungsraum eines Vereins, Klubs, der örtlichen Organisation  einer Partei u. Ä.__
der Klub hatte ein eigenes Lokal_
http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Lokal

_Wahllokal
Raum, in dem die Wahlberechtigten [eines Wahlbezirks] ihre Stimme abgeben können
_http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Wahllokal

*Vereinslokal
Lokal, in dem die Mitglieder eines Vereins regelmäßig zusammenkommen
*http://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Vereinslokal


None of the above, especially not _Vereinslokal_, which we are discussing here, is marked as regional.


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## berndf

This, except _Wahllokal_, doesn't reflect current usage any more. Germans would be extremely surprised, if invited into a _Vereinslokal _that didn't serve food and drinks. The given text certainly reflects this usage.


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## wandle

poisongift said:


> Was ist denn ein "Vereinslokal"? ...
> Zunächst habe ich gemeint, "Vereinslokal" heiße auf English "local pub", aber vielleicht passt "union house" oder "society club/house/pub" besser in diesem Zusammenhang.


I would translate it as 'club bar', meaning a bar room inside a club (the club might have its own building or just a part of a building).

However, the accuracy of this depends on whether it fits the physical facts in New York.


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## Schlabberlatz

duden.de has "Raum oder Örtlichkeit, wo man gegen Bezahlung essen und trinken kann; Gaststätte, [Schank]wirtschaft" as its first definition of "Lokal". And "Vereinslokal", as has been quoted before, is defined as "Lokal, in dem die Mitglieder eines Vereins regelmäßig zusammenkommen". So why couldn’t it be a pub where they meet regularly? Maybe a pub where there’s a separate room that can be reserved for club meetings. But it’s hard to say which interpretation is the right one. As Wandle has said before, you’d have to know about the physical facts in New York.


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## manfy

Schlabberlatz said:


> ... you’d have to know about the physical facts in New York.



Not really, actually! 
In my opinion "Vereinslokal" is used here as a sort of figure of speech; it is simply 'ein Lokal' (pub, restaurant, Wirtshaus) where the 'Verein' usually meets.

To understand this you have to understand what a 'Verein' is in German culture. It is simply a group of people with the same interests that do meet regularly (or at least reasonably often). Once that group is big enough you can officially register that 'Verein' which might enable financial support (or at least tax cuts) from your local, regional government. (legally speaking it's a non-profit organisation, and it doesn't really matter what they do. Just to name a few: Gesangsverein, Schützenverein, Saufverein  It doesn't really have to be a large scale commercial organization like some soccer clubs)

Since most 'Vereine' start out small with only a few guys they need a place to meet and that's normally and logically a local bar/pub/restaurant. Since these clubs very rarely are really concerned about club business, this 'Vereinslokal' is the main venue for socializing with other people who think alike (often called 'Vereinsmitglieder'). Additionally these places and their regular meetings are an ideal excuse for spouses (since you're not just going out drinking, but you're meeting with the 'Verein' !) ...and she knows exactly where to pick you up when you're (again) too drunk to drive....


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## wandle

manfy said:


> Not really, actually!


I think we do need to know what the facts are in New York.


> In my opinion "Vereinslokal" is used here as a sort of figure of speech; it is simply 'ein Lokal' (pub, restaurant, Wirtshaus) where the 'Verein' usually meets....
> To understand this you have to understand what a 'Verein' is in German culture. It is simply a group of people with the same interests that do meet regularly (or at least reasonably often). ...
> they need a place to meet and that's normally and logically a local bar/pub/restaurant.


Granted that that is typical of German _Vereine_ (I remember the _Erksche Gesangsverein_ in Wetzlar), it still does not follow that that is the situation on the ground in New York. Things may well be different in an immigrant community.

It is (or was) typical of an Irish quarter in an English city to have an Irish Club, which is a social organisation for the whole local community rather than one interest group. Within such a club, you have a bar, ballroom and other facilities. That kind of club may exist or have existed in the German community in New York.

Thus there are different possible situations on the ground; and different possible interpretations of the word _Vereinslokal_: a bar located within a club (building), or a club which meets in a bar.


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## manfy

wandle said:


> I think we do need to know what the facts are in New York.



Again I have to say: Not really! The article is not focussing on German clubs in New York but it expresses the German habit of going to 'Vereinslokale', no matter where they are or whether that 'Verein' really exists as an officially recognized 'Verein'. 
You're looking at it too much from a literal point of view. 'Vereinslokale' in that sense do exist and they don't have to be pubs. If the organization is big enough they do have their own building or meeting room.

To be honest, I don't know the exact details in Germany (I'm not much of a Vereins-person, I prefer diversity), but in Austria you don't have to be a member with a membership card. If you like the people and activity, and if you go there frequently you're automatically considered part of that 'Verein' as an active supporter.
And I think that's what's described in that article, the German habit of having a 'Vereinslokal'. If you take away the aspect of 'Verein' then what's left is 'Stammlokal', however this word has a strong connotation of 'drinking hole', hence it's rarely used as a direct synonym!


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## berndf

manfy said:


> And I think that's what's described in that article, the German habit of having a 'Vereinslokal'. If you take away the aspect of 'Verein' then what's left is 'Stammlokal', however this word has a strong connotation of 'drinking hole', hence it's rarely used as a direct synonym!


I see it like this too. The word I would have expected here (i.e. where you meat after church) is "Wirtshaus".


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## poisongift

Would it make sense to say that they met twice on Sundays, "first to worship and then at their club's tavern"?


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## berndf

poisongift said:


> Would it make sense to say that they met twice on Sundays, "first to worship and then at their club's tavern"?


I think so.


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## Schimmelreiter

_Der „Technische Verein von New York", Zweigverein des „Deutsch-Amerikanischen Verbandes" hat sein Vereinslokal im „United Engineering Building", 29 West 39. Straße, Zimmer No. 719._
Illustrierter Führer durch New York und Umgebung

Certainly not a tavern.


Germans used not to have lunch outside of their homes after Sunday Mass. Men used to have _Frühschoppen_, drinking beer, while their wives were preparing lunch at home. Beer will have been in stock at the club house. Terminology-wise, it must be borne in mind that Little Germany flourished in the 19th (!) century.


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## berndf

I didn't realize this text was from a historical guide to contemporary New York and not from a contemporary guide to historical New York. You might be right in this case.


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## Schlabberlatz

The book quoted in #1 is from 2013. Maybe Schimmelreiter is right, but I think it could also be the case that the term here is meant to have both meanings, that is it is meant to cover both the pubs frequented by members of small clubs and the club houses of the members of larger clubs.


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## wandle

Schlabberlatz said:


> I think it could also be the case that the term here is meant to have both meanings, that is it is meant to cover both the pubs frequented by members of small clubs and the club houses of the members of larger clubs.


After all, the social and cultural activities of an immigrant community may be affected by various factors which exist in the host city and nowhere else.  The only way to find out is by reference to facts.

Chapter 5 in *Schimmelreiter's* link to the _Führer durch New York_ says this:


> Unter dem Namen „Vereinigte deutsche Gesellschaften der Stadt New York" ist 1902 ein Verein gegründet worden, der bestrebt ist, sämtliche deutsche Vereine unter einen Hut zu bringen


and goes on to mention a number of different _Vereine_ (many of them _Gesangvereine_), each with a separate address, though without saying that their addresses were those of bars or restaurants.


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## manfy

wandle said:


> and goes on to mention a number of different _Vereine_ (many of them _Gesangvereine_), each with a separate address, though without saying that their addresses were those of bars or restaurants.



Yes, of course! Once you decide to get registered as e.V. (= eingetragener Verein) you must provide at the very least a mailing address because registration makes it a legal entity. I suppose for small clubs that's normally the home address of the 'Obmann' (the leader and/or person who started the club). 
As far as I know, there is no legal requirement to have a permanent location or an office per se because this would defeat the purpose of social gatherings by making this 'Verein' costly to run.
For all these 'Gesangsvereine', for instance, it's natural to choose a restaurant for their weekly meetings and rehearsals because you can book a back room to do that without disturbing many people. Imagine if the "Jodelverein Bronx e.V." would start yodelling after 10pm in a private home... You'd have the cops on your hands in no time due to noise issues!
Another popular type of Verein is sports clubs, Ruderverein, Eisschützenverein, etc. They usually gather at some sports venue to carry out their hobby and afterwards it's just customary to get together in your chosen 'Vereinslokal' to have some food, drinks, and fun.


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## Schimmelreiter

It may be for convenience' sake to make one room of a restaurant one's _Vereinslokal _but that doesn't make the restaurant one's Vereins-_"Lokal”. _The original meaning of _Lokal_ is _location_, the added meaning of _restaurant _is more recent. 

So a place doesn't by any means have to be a _Lokal/restaurant _to accomodate a _Vereinslokal_, i.e. the meeting place of a _Verein. _But it's certainly nice to have one room of a _Lokal/restaurant _as one's _Vereinslokal _sinc_e _during gatherings of the _Verein_, its members can enjoy food and drinks from the restaurant *in which *the _Verein _has its _Vereinslokal._


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## wandle

manfy said:


> Once you decide to get registered as e.V. (= eingetragener Verein) you *must provide* at the very least a mailing address because *registration makes it a legal entity*. I suppose for small clubs that's normally the home address of the 'Obmann' (the leader and/or person who started the club).


Would this be a statement of German law, by any chance? If so, why should we expect it to apply in the US? 
The point is that New York is not Berlin or Munich. That is why we need to find out the facts over there before drawing conclusions.


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## manfy

wandle said:


> Would this be a statement of German law, by any chance? If so, why should we expect it to apply in the US?
> The point is that New York is not Berlin or Munich. That is why we need to find out the facts over there before drawing conclusions.



Yes, that's how it works in Austria and I'm sure Germany and Switzerland have similar laws and regulations.
Knowing equivalent laws in New York at that time might provide some secondary insights, but they would not be crucial for the OP. The fact that such _Vereine_ have been common in German-speaking countries for a long time is the important part because it is the precursor to the creation of similar _Vereine_ by German immigrants. That's what grown-up immigrants do, they take their culture and their traditions from their homeland and transplant it to their new environment. 
Even if these clubs and associations had been illegal in the US at that time, the immigrants would have carried on with it anyways by creating secret underground Vereine (just like the Italians brought in the Mafia, Japanese the Yakuza, Chinese the Triads, and the Irish brought in Guinness  ).

American movies are often stereotyping these groups by showing the Irish meeting only in Irish pubs, the Mafia is meeting in shady trattorias and Yakuza in a Sushi-bar. Well, for the average German immigrant the equivalent is _das Vereinslokal_!


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## poisongift

Which would work better as an English version: _club house_ or _club premises_​?


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## manfy

poisongift said:


> Which would work better as an English version: _club house_ or _club premises_​?



I'd say club house sounds better because it has a strong connotation of a place to socialize and where you get food and drinks.
Club premise sounds to much like the place where you do business, i.e. the activity that is the core idea of that specific club.

And that's what no self-respecting German Vereinsmitglied would do! On a Sunday between church and home-cooked lunch you simply DO NOT carry on business as usual - even if that business is really a hobby! That would almost qualify as a sin in a Christian view...
What you normally do is meeting with your friends and neighbours in a Wirtshaus (that's more along my line of lifestyle) or if you're a dedicated Vereinsmitglied then you do that at the Vereinslokal (whether this is a dedicated club house or a club-selected pub/restaurant doesn't really make a difference).


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## wandle

manfy said:


> Knowing equivalent laws in New York at that time might provide some secondary insights, but they would not be crucial for the OP.


This already assumes that there are equivalent laws. Immigrants cannot simply import legal usages from abroad and apply them in the new country as if the laws were equivalent. They have to fit in with the laws they find. 


> That's what grown-up immigrants do, they take their culture and their traditions from their homeland and transplant it to their new environment.


That no doubt is what they try to do, but there may be differences of culture and environment, as well as law, which affect how arrangements are made in practice. That is why we need to know the facts which obtained in New York at that time before we can draw conclusions about what premises were used.


poisongift said:


> Which would work better as an English version: _club house_ or _club premises_​?


Since we do not do not have enough information to know what kind of establishments are being referred to, 'club premises' is the better of the two, because that is general enough to refer to any kind of situation: a bar or restaurant with a _Stammtisch_, a rented room, a suite of rooms, a separate buliding. As a matter of context, though, the expression 'club premises' would imply that the club had been referred to already. 

'Clubhouse', as previously mentioned, would suggest the clubhouse of a golf course, which is a separate building, overlooking the greens and fairways: not something you would find on the Lower East Side.

Why not just say 'club'?


> ... traf sich sonntags erst beim Gottesdienst und dann im Vereinslokal.


_... met on Sundays first at church and then at the club_.


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