# αν ο,τι είναι



## ianis

In "αν ο,τι είναι", is "αν ο,τι" to be translated in the same way as "ο,τι κι αν" "whatever"/"no matter what" or even only "what" or is to be translated as "if what" (which to be honest doesn't seem to make much sense in the context where it appears)?


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## Perseas

Hello ianis
It would help to have more than that, so that we can answer.

In the following sentence, for example, "αν ο,τι", is translated as "if what":
_Αν ό,τι είναι αληθινό είναι και εθνικό, τότε αυτή είναι σήμερα η μοναδική εθνική επιλογή._


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## ianis

Hello Perseas, and first of all thank you for your answer! It is clauses like the following: "αν ό,τι είναι για την πόλη το βουλευόμενο αυτό είναι γιά τον άνθρωπο το λογικό". It seems a comparison like "what is for the city the deliberating the same is for the man the rational". The "if" would sound awkward in this case or not?


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## Perseas

Then it's similar to my example sentence in #2. "If what for the city is the deliberating...". At least this I how I would translate it into English. Perhaps there is a more idiomatic translation.


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## ianis

I must confess the "if" in this sentence still confuses me, in the example you gave there is a "then" linking both clauses but here where is the word that establishes a similar relation between the two clauses? Or am I not fully understanding the meaning of the sentence in Greek?


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## Perseas

ianis said:


> I must confess the "if" in this sentence still confuses me, in the example you gave there is a "then" linking both clauses but here where is the word that establishes a similar relation between the two clauses?


_Αν ό,τι είναι αληθινό είναι και εθνικό, (τότε) ..._
αν ό,τι είναι για την πόλη το βουλευόμενο αυτό είναι γιά τον άνθρωπο το λογικό, (τότε) ... 

You can omit "τότε" ("then").


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## ianis

Sorry to insist on this issue Perseas but the problem is this, the sentence you provided seems to be "If A then B" while the other setence seems to be "A is to B what C is to D". Among the differences it is being implied in the "if" sentence that A may not be and also "If A then B" does not imply "if B then A" as you can see if you change the order in the sentence you provided, however in the other sentence the order can be changed without altering the sense. Because what is being compared is the relation beetween the two.
For instance in "The Lynx is to the cat like the wolf is to the dog." does it make sense to put an if?
In the same way "what the deliberating (A) is to the city (B) the same is for man (C) the rational (D)". And if you change the order it will have the same sense.  How can there be an if there?Unless I'm mistranslating the sentence.


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## Perseas

Agreed, your sentence is more complex than mine, but in both there is a type of conditional. And "if" is necessary in a conditional, isn't it?

In 'my' sentence, there is an "if clause" (_Αν ό,τι είναι αληθινό είναι και εθνικό,) and a main clause ( τότε αυτή είναι σήμερα η μοναδική εθνική επιλογή)._

After researching a bit in internet, I found this:
_[...]αν ό,τι είναι για την πόλη το βουλευόμενο αυτό είναι για τον άνθρωπο το λογικό, [...] η δικαιοσύνη θα ήταν σύμφωνα με αυτόν, πολίτευμα ψυχής [...]_
Η σχέση της Ψυχής και της Πολιτείας [Πολίτευμα] κατά τον Πλάτωνα
_
In the sentence from the link above, I also see a 'compound' "if clause" (αν ό,τι είναι για την πόλη το βουλευόμενο αυτό είναι για τον άνθρωπο το λογικό) and a main clause (η δικαιοσύνη θα ήταν σύμφωνα με αυτόν πολίτευμα ψυχής)._


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## ianis

That's it, thank you Perseas and sorry for the confusion. "If the common people are to the city what concupiscence is to each man and the deliberating is to the city what reason is to man, (then) justice will be according to Plato the form of government of the soul and the best form of government will be the justice of the city."

The ancient Greek parallel text also uses the "if"  clause ει οπερ (if as).


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