# How do you say "true"?



## Isidore Demsky

Does "ma" mean "true"?


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## Flaminius

Please tell us how you want to use a Japanese equivalent for "true."  The best means is to provide a snippet of the text in which you use "true" and explain what you want the text to mean.  Yes, _ma_ is one of the ways to say "true" but we cannot assure you you know how to use it properly.

JP moderator


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## Isidore Demsky

What I would like to know is whether the phoneme "ma," (by itself, without being used as a prefix or suffix) has the meaning of "true," "right," or factually "correct"?


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## Flaminius

The problem with your question is that _ma_ is a prefix and cannot have any meaning "by itself."  If you are asking the meaning of the prefix _ma_ that first comes to mind of a Japanese speaker, then it's "true."


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## Isidore Demsky

Flaminius said:


> The problem with your question is that _ma_ is a prefix and cannot have any meaning "by itself."  If you are asking the meaning of the prefix _ma_ that first comes to mind of a Japanese speaker, then it's "true."



Thank you.

So prefixed to a word meaning (say) courage, it would mean "true courage," but by itself it means nothing?

Is there a word which means "truth" (or "true") by itself?


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## Isidore Demsky

As a stand alone word, *ま doesn't mean "truth," "reality," "true," or "genuine"?

(I ask because this Kanji dictionary seems to indicate that it does have these connotations (see the eighth listing from the top.)
*


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## Flaminius

Isidore Demsky said:


> As a stand alone word, *ま doesn't mean "truth," "reality," "true," or "genuine"?
> *


No.  It's not a stand-alone word.  Period.  Kanjis are not necessarily words in Japanese but mere morphemes.



Isidore Demsky said:


> So prefixed to a word meaning (say) courage, it would mean "true courage," but by itself it means nothing?


Exactly, but ma- combines with only a limited  number of words and courage is not one of them.



> Is there a word which means "truth" (or "true") by itself?


Yes, there is.  Please tell us how you want to use it (back to my #2 _supra_ in January).


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## Isidore Demsky

> Yes, there is.  Please tell us how you want to use it (back to my #2 _supra_ in January).



Suppose I wanted to say that something or someone stood for "truth," justice, and integrity? 

Or that someone spoke "truth" to power?

Or that this particular word means "truth" in Japanese?

Or that Einstein's Theory of relativity is "true"?

Or that an American WWII movie about some highly decorated Japanese American soldiers, and the initially prejudiced Caucasian officer who commanded them (called "Go For Broke") is based on a "true" story? 

Is there any one word that means "truth" (or "true") in all those contexts?

*In other words, is there any one, stand alone word that simply means "truth"?*

P.S. I think it's bad English, but there's an American colloquial expression popular with kids today--"true, not!"

If I wanted to aproximate that expression in Japanese, could I say "ma, hu"?


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## Flaminius

Isidore Demsky said:


> Is there any one word that means "truth" (or "true") in all those contexts?


No.  That is the reason I ask for a specific context.



> *In other words, is there any one, stand alone word that simply means "truth"?*


Look the English word _truth_ up in the dictionary and you will find different meanings.  It's too optimistic to expect that all those meanings are expressed with a single word in a different language.



> If I wanted to aproximate that expression in Japanese, could I say "ma, hu"?


I am not familiar with the English colloquialism but _ma_ cannot be used as a word.  Period.


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## OED Loves Me Not

Isidore, you're a native English speaker.  I assume you've never 
had an opportunity to study hard any language completely different
in vocabulary, grammar, and structure from your mother tongue.
Even if you're a polyglot, you must have studied only European 
languages, such as German, Italian, French, and Spanish.  

Japanese, as well as other Asian languages, along with African 
and Semitic languages, is completely different from English 
in every possible aspect.  

If you ask French people what they say "truth" in their 
language, they will probably lose no time in saying 
"la verité."  Probably again, that French word would apply 
rather safely to most of the contexts in which you wanted 
to use its English equivalent. The same would, I suspect, 
probably be true of many other European languages.

However, this cannot apply to Japanese.  When a native English speaker 
studies Japanese, or when a native Japanese speaker studies English, 
it even seems as if they can never possibly translate any single word,
much less a whole sentence, without considering its context.


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## Isidore Demsky

Flaminius said:


> but _ma_ cannot be used as a word.  Period.



A native Japanese speaker once told me that a specific kanji, pronounce "ma," was "a stand alone word," and that it refereed to some kind of demon (or vengeful spirit.)

Didn't he know what he was talking about?

(He specifically said it was "a stand alone word.")


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## OED Loves Me Not

Your Japanese friend must have shown you the kanji character "真",
which can be pronounced in several different ways: 
　　　*ma, makoto*, shin, sane, and so on.

If it is pronounced "*ma*," then it is just a prefix, not a standalone word
(as far as I know, anyway).  If it is pronounced "*makoto*," then it is 
a standalone word.  But that word, "*makoto*," is rather literary and 
does not apply to all contexts.  I seldom use that word in everyday 
conversation. I think the word "*makoto*" used to be used as a 
conversational word in ancient times, say, until a hundred years ago or so.


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## Isidore Demsky

OED Loves Me Not said:


> Your Japanese friend must have shown you the kanji character "真",
> which can be pronounced in several different ways:
> *ma, makoto*, shin, sane, and so on.
> 
> If it is pronounced "*ma*," then it is just a prefix, not a standalone word
> (as far as I know, anyway).  If it is pronounced "*makoto*," then it is
> a standalone word.  But that word, "*makoto*," is rather literary and
> does not apply to all contexts.  I seldom use that word in everyday
> conversation. I think the word "*makoto*" used to be used as a
> conversational word in ancient times, say, until a hundred years ago or so.



Thank you.



OED Loves Me Not said:


> Isidore, you're a native English speaker.  I assume you've never
> had an opportunity to study hard any language completely different
> in vocabulary, grammar, and structure from your mother tongue.



Guilty.

I learned a little conversational Greek (Kali merra, kali sperra, kali nekta, yasou, etc.) while working in the restaurant  industry here in the U.S. (and I learned to count in Japanese, and to  say "good evening," "good morning," "teacher," and a few other things  while studying Akkido), but the only language I ever formally studied  was Spanish (and I'm afraid I only hablo espanol un poco.)



OED Loves Me Not said:


> When a native English speaker
> studies Japanese, or when a native Japanese speaker studies English,
> it even seems as if they can never possibly translate any single word,
> much less a whole sentence, without considering its context.



Thank you.

In regards to context, your user name is interesting here.

Could "Loves me not" be expressed by some combination of the morphemes "ma" and "hu"?


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## OED Loves Me Not

> Could "Loves me not" be expressed by some combination of the morphemes "ma" and "hu"?​


Sorry, but the morphemes "ma" and "hu" can mean many different things.
When pronounced or written alone, they mean nothing at all.
So I can't think of any Japanese equivalent of "Loves Me Not" 
by using "ma" and "hu."


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## Flaminius

Isidore Demsky said:


> A native Japanese speaker once told me that a specific kanji, pronounce "ma," was "a stand alone word," and that it refereed to some kind of demon (or vengeful spirit.)


I have to be very careful of English articles to understand what you are saying here: "that* a* specific kanji..."

There is a kanji that is pronounced ma and refers to what you wrote above but it is not this kanji we have been talking about.  Ma, the demon, is represented by 魔.  Since monosyllabic words are easy to be confused, we tend to use polysyllabic words instead (悪魔, for example) and limit the monosyllabics to set phrases (魔がさした).


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## Isidore Demsky

OED Loves Me Not said:


> Sorry, but the morphemes "ma" and "hu" can mean many different things.
> When pronounced or written alone, they mean nothing at all.
> So I can't think of any Japanese equivalent of "Loves Me Not"
> by using "ma" and "hu."



Thank you.

I asked because I thought (*フ*) hu was a particle of negation (and could be used as a prefix or suffix), so I thought if (*ま*) "ma" (at least when combined with other morphemes) is one way of saying "true," (*まフ*) ma hu or (*フ**ま*) hu ma might be one way of saying not true?

Since your user name is "loves me not," I was wondering if there's any way to combine 愛 *ま and **フ* to say "loves me not"?


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## Isidore Demsky

Flaminius said:


> There is a kanji that is pronounced ma and refers to what you wrote above but it is not this kanji we have been talking about.  Ma, the demon, is represented by 魔.  Since monosyllabic words are easy to be confused, we tend to use polysyllabic words instead (悪魔, for example) and limit the monosyllabics to set phrases (魔がさした).



So if ma is a monosyllabic phrase meaning demon, the morpheme ("ma") isn't meaningless?

If I just said "ma" it could mean demon?

Is that the only thing it could mean?

*P.S.* In English, the morpheme "I," "aye," or "eye" can mean the physical organ of sight, "yes," or me (first person personal pronoun), but it's not meaningless.


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## OED Loves Me Not

Isidore, I'm afraid that it's not that easy.  Neither "ma fu" nor "fu ma" 
nor even "ma ma fu" nor "fu fu ma ma ma" nor anything containing 
a "ma" somewhere and a "fu" somewhere else in a long sentence
--- none of all that makes the slightest sense.

If you are that curious about the Japanese language, I suggest you 
study Japanese at least a hundred hours over a Japanese-language 
study coursebook at least a hundred pages long.  Otherwise, it is completely 
impossible for even a genius  to get even the slightest hint about 
the language, as long as they are a native speaker of 
English, French, German, Italian, Greek, Romanian, Catalonian, 
or any other language that belongs to the group of Indo-European 
languages, all of which are diagonally or even astronomically 
different from Japanese in every possible aspect (in vocabulary, 
grammatical structure, and so on).

"The OED Loves Me Not", if you insist that hard that you know 
how it can be translated into Japanese, can turn out to be 
either of the following:

　　　(1) OED が僕を愛してくれない (OED ga boku wo aishite kurenai)
　　　(2) OED に片思い (OED ni kata omoi) 
　　　(3) OED は私のことになんて無頓着 (OED ha watashi no kotonante mutonjaku)

You see? None of the above translations contains any "ma" or "fu."
And I suggest you stop wondering about morphemes, too.  The Japanese language 
just doesn't work the way you suppose a language ought to function.

Please read a well-written full-length book on the Japanese language.
If any Japanese who happens to be on this forum had to explain 
all this to you here, it would take at least thousands of hours 
with thousands of pages of writing.


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## Flaminius

Isidore Demsky said:


> So if ma is a monosyllabic phrase meaning demon, the morpheme ("ma") isn't meaningless?


You are misinformed here about what a morpheme is just as in your PS.  A morpheme has a distinct phonological form bearing a meaning and it makes up a word by itself or in combination with other morphemes.   There are lot of morphemes in Japanese that are pronounced ma with different meanings and different script representations.



> If I just said "ma" it could mean demon?


It could.  But you need context to be certain of what is meant.



> *P.S.* In English, the morpheme "I," "aye," or "eye" can mean the physical organ of sight, "yes," or me (first person personal pronoun), but it's not meaningless.


The three morphemes happened to have the same pronunciation.  Also note that they are independent words too.  When I wrote "meaningless", it was for ma (in sense of "true") standing alone.

I am afraid we are wandering far off topic for a couple of posts.  At the risk of sounding high-handed, I repeat my usual request:
Provide one specific sentence in which you want to use the Enlish word "truth".  We will translate the word for you together with the whole sentence.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Isidore Demsky said:


> Does "ma" mean "true"?



Sometimes, yes.
The ”真” in the phrase 「真に受ける」means "truth" or "a real thing."

不真面目 is a possible combination of the Japanese language, and it includes "hu" and "ma." 
However, there is no word such as 不真愛(hu-ma-ai), although some writers may create such a word, pronouncing フリン (immoral love affair), or アソビ (just a play, not serious).
Because the kanji 不 has the meaning of "not" in it, and 真 has the meaning of "truth" in it.

If I happen to see　不真愛, I can't pronounce it correctly, but I can guess the meaning of it. However, it is not a common Japanese word.

............................
For example,
in English, "contra-" means "opposite."
"Sophia" in "philosophy" means "knowledge, wisdom."
"Ful" is an suffix, to make it an adjective.

So if I made a word such as "contrasophy" or "contrasophiaful" and claimed that the word means "instinctive," what would you say? I think your question was more or less the same thing.

Your question is more like _"contra" can be used instead of "not"?_
Or "_Can I use "sophy" instead of "knowledge" by it self? " _or something like that.

I'm very sorry, but I don't think you're on the right track in learning Japanese.
If I took a lot of time and effort to create the words, "contrasophy" or "contrasohical" or something like that, what would you recommend me?  Would you say,"Stop thinking in that way. You're on a wrong track"?


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## Isidore Demsky

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> Sometimes, yes.
> The ”真” in the phrase 「真に受ける」means "truth" or "a real thing."
> 
> 不真面目 is a possible combination of the Japanese language, and it includes "hu" and "ma."
> However, there is no word such as 不真愛(hu-ma-ai), although some writers may create such a word, pronouncing フリン (immoral love affair), or アソビ (just a play, not serious).
> Because the kanji 不 has the meaning of "not" in it, and 真 has the meaning of "truth" in it.
> 
> If I happen to see　不真愛, I can't pronounce it correctly, but I can guess the meaning of it. However, it is not a common Japanese word.
> 
> ............................
> For example,
> in English, "contra-" means "opposite."
> "Sophia" in "philosophy" means "knowledge, wisdom."
> "Ful" is an suffix, to make it an adjective.
> 
> So if I made a word such as "contrasophy" or "contrasophiaful" and claimed that the word means "instinctive," what would you say? I think your question was more or less the same thing.



*Thank you.*

I have a feeling it would take me a *very long time* to learn how to read and understand Japanese kanji, and I'm really more interested in the spoken language.

(The reason I like that online kanji dictionary is that it has audio files, and if you click on an icon, you can hear how the word (or morpheme, prefix, suffix) is pronounced in Japanese.

Is the Rosetta Stone system as good as I hear it is, and do you think that would be a good way for me to learn the spoken language?



> So if I made a word such as "contrasophy" or "contrasophiaful" and  claimed that the word means "instinctive," what would you say?



I think I'd say that (as a made up word) "contrasophy" could mean anti-intellectual, or contrary to the love of wisdom, and "contrasophiaful" could mean unphilosophical.

I'm not sure it's a made up word, but I believe the English word "hopefully" (as it's used *or misused* today) was first used in a speech by John F. Kennedy, caught on, and now expresses some uncertainty (when it should mean full of hope.)


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## SoLaTiDoberman

Sorry, I'm a native Japanese speaker who hasn't used Rosetta Stone system to learn my native tongue.

One thing for sure is that you should learn Kanji in a actual sentence or context.
For example,
I can say "I made a mistake."
But it is very odd to say, "I did a mistake" "I performed a mistake"  or "I took a mistake."
Grammatically speaking, it is called "collocation." 
In order to remember a proper collocation, one should learn a phrase in a context.

Probably Rosetta Stone system can provide you one of the wisest and shortest methods to learn a new language, maybe. 
Because the system has been improving by a lot of learners' feedback.

But you should wait for the answers by other members who are familiar with how-to-learn-Japanese.


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## Isidore Demsky

Thanks again.

Does 真面目 mean "serious," "real," or "true"?


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## SoLaTiDoberman

You're welcome!

真面目（majime) means "seriousness" or "earnest."


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## Isidore Demsky

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> You're welcome!
> 
> 真面目（majime) means "seriousness" or "earnest."



Can it mean "true character" too?

I understand google translate isn't always accurate, but it gives that as one of it's meanings.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

I saw the Google translation.

"True character" is usually translated as 正体、本性.
I don't think 正気 and 真面目 is the major translation of "true character."
However, maybe in some contexts, 真面目 means "true character." Maybe I just don't know the context.

The problem is that the Google translation doesn't show the frequency of that usage.
And if the Google translate shows me the example sentences, I would be able to agree with the machine translation.


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## Flaminius

OP's PM quoted with permission said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm more interested in any meanings the morpheme "ma" has in any language than I am in the English word "true.
> 
> "In Italian it means "but," in Hebrew (and some other languages) it means "what," in some other languages it means "I" or "me," and in many languages it refers to a female parent.
> 
> The concept of a demon is ugly and distasteful, and I would hate to think that that's all it can mean (as a stand alone word) in Japanese.


Okay, what other thing does the sound "ma" mean in Japanese?

It means space between things and between events (in other words distance in terms of space and time):
間をあけてドアから入る。
They enter through the door at a certain interval / with distance between people.

By extension, it also means spare time and the right moment (most suitable for doing something):
休む間もなく電話をかけた。
I made phone calls without a break.
ちょうど間に合った。
I made it for (a schedule).

In a very loose criterion, you can say that ma can also mean truth in certain contexts:
話を真に受けたが、冗談だった。
I took the story for real but it was a joke.

One final really seriously important caveat:
Those examples do not guarantee that 間 and 真 can be used in any given contexts.  Do not use them in translating an English sentence that has not been mentioned here.


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## M Mira

Isidore Demsky said:


> Can it mean "true character" too?
> 
> I understand google translate isn't always accurate, but it gives that as one of it's meanings.


That's its Chinese meaning, a false friend (as I believe) with the Japanese version of the word.


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## Flaminius

*Mira*, 真面目 can be read _shimmemmoku _in Japanese and that means something to the effect of "one's proud self."  It's possible that it means "true character" in contexts.


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## M Mira

Flaminius said:


> *Mira*, 真面目 can be read _shimmemmoku _in Japanese and that means something to the effect of "one's proud self."  It's possible that it means "true character" in contexts.


I don't even know that it has an on'yomi reading

The Chinese meaning is somewhat derogatory (now), closer to "true colors" .


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## Isidore Demsky

Flaminius said:


> Okay, what other thing does the sound "ma" mean in Japanese?
> 
> It means space between things and between events (in other words distance in terms of space and time):
> 間をあけてドアから入る。
> They enter through the door at a certain interval / with distance between people.
> 
> By extension, it also means spare time and the right moment (most suitable for doing something):
> 休む間もなく電話をかけた。
> I made phone calls without a break.
> ちょうど間に合った。
> I made it for (a schedule).
> 
> In a very loose criterion, you can say that ma can also mean truth in certain contexts:
> 話を真に受けたが、冗談だった。
> I took the story for real but it was a joke.
> 
> One final really seriously important caveat:
> Those examples do not guarantee that 間 and 真 can be used in any given contexts.  Do not use them in translating an English sentence that has not been mentioned here.



Thank you.

Are there any Japanese deities with this name?

What exactly does Marici Ten mean?

I think I read somewhere that it means something like "goddess" + "rays of light," but how does it break down etymologically (and does the "ma" sound mean anything in particular in this context)?


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## Isidore Demsky

M Mira said:


> That's its Chinese meaning, a false friend (as I believe) with the Japanese version of the word.



Thank you.

Do you mean the Chinese meaning of 不真面目 would be a false friend?

(Where would you get the idea of "false" without 不 ?)


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## M Mira

Isidore Demsky said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Do you mean the Chinese meaning of 不真面目 would be a false friend?
> 
> (Where would you get the idea of "false" without 不 ?)



"False friend" is a grammatical term for similar looking words in different languages that are actually different in meaning.


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## Cowrie

Isidore Demsky said:


> how does it break down etymologically


“Marici” in Japanese まりしてん is from Sanskrit “marīci” meaning rays of light.

 It is probably worth noting here that this does _not_ mean if you say “marici” (or even “marici ten”) in Japan, people immediately understand what you mean. You’d have to explain. That’s a Buddhist term.


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