# Hebrew "itztagnin" = astrologer



## origumi

There's a word used in Hebrew since Gemaraic times (3rd-5th century AD) אִצְטַגְנִין "itztagnin" which means _astrologer_, one who foretells the future according to the stars. Likely to be borrowed through Aramaic, yet this doesn't clarify the ultimate origin and etymology.

The Hebrew Wikipedia says it may be derived from Latin _signum_ = _sign_.
Other sources suggest Greek _στεγανοζ_ = _hermetic_, _watertight_ (but then how is it related).
I saw also an hypothesis about Persian origin.

Does any of the languages dominant in those times (Greek, Latin, Persian, Aramaic, or other) contain a word similar to "itztagnin" in meaning and sound? Or can you suggest an etymology?


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## rushalaim

The word _"constellation"_
 סגנון
through _Samekh_-letter אסטגנינות


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## OBrasilo

Maybe it's from Greek _Atziganos_, ie. Gypsy, since astrology of one of the thing associated with Gypsy women. Or even the female form, _Atzigani_.


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## fdb

I wonder whether אסטגנין is not merely a corruption of ἀστρονόμος > *asṭəʀnom- > *esṭeγnin.

Of course, Gypsies have nothing to do with this. The Roma people did not arrive in the Middle East until late in the first millennium, and the name Tsinganos etc. cannot be traced back before the mediaeval period. Anyway, in the Near East astrology is associated with Chaldaeans and Magi, not with Gypsies.


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## rushalaim

fdb said:


> I wonder whether אסטגנין is not merely a corruption of ἀστρονόμος > *asṭəʀnom- > *esṭeγnin.


Do you mean _Persian "star"_ *אסתר* ? That *אסתר *derived from _Astarte/Ishtar_* עשתרת 
אסתר *from _Lat."astra"_, *סגנון* from _Lat."signum"_
Nevertheless, I think Wikipedia is right, אִצְטַגְנִין is from _Aramaic _*סגנון*


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## fdb

*
*



rushalaim said:


> Do you mean _Persian "star"_ אסתר ? That אסתר derived from _Astarte/Ishtar_ עשתרת



Middle Persian star, stārag, New Persian sitāra are Indo-European cognates of Eng. star, Greek aster, Latin stella etc. These have nothing to do with Ishtar or Astarte.



rushalaim said:


> Nevertheless, I think Wikipedia is right, אִצְטַגְנִין is from _Aramaic _סגנון



 I don't see where the ט comes from.


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## rushalaim

fdb said:


> I don't see where the ט comes from.


When _Tzadi _preceded, then _Taw _changes to _Tet_.


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## fdb

That does not answer my question. If it is from Latin "signum" > Aramaic סגנון, where does the t come from?


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## utopia

origumi, did you try STANGONI, STAGNO, STAGNARE, STAGNINO,  and so on?


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## origumi

utopia said:


> did you try STANGONI, STAGNO, STAGNARE, STAGNINO,  and so on?


These have Latin/Italian meaning like stagnum/stagno = _tin_, _pond_. I don't see how it's related to astrology.



fdb said:


> I wonder whether אסטגנין is not merely a corruption of ἀστρονόμος > *asṭəʀnom- > *esṭeγnin.


This is possible but I couldn't find any source that elaborates, beyond articles that compare Babylonian to Jesusalemite Judeo-Aramaic and show that several Greek words were pronounced closer to Greek in Jerusalemite and closer to Persian/Hebrew/Aramaic in Babylonian Judeo-Aramaic. I am not sure how reliable are these in regard to Itztagnin.


> הארמית של הבבלי מעורבת בפרסית, לעומת הארמית שבירושלמי שמעורבת ביוונית (חומת ירושלים שער ו). יתרה מכך, לעיתים גם מילים יווניות שנמצאות בשני התלמודים - בירושלמי הן כתובות כמקורן היווני (במקרים רבים בסיומת של האות סמ"ך) ובבבלי בצורה שקרובה יותר לארמית ולעברית, כגון *איסטרולוגוס* בירושלמי ו*איצטגנין* בבבלי, פילוסופוס-פילוסופא, קלנדס-קלנדא, זיתוס-זיתום, ארדבליס-הרדולים, אוותיאוס-אותיום, ליסטיס-ליסטים


מבוא לירושלמי | אתר ישיבה


BTW, shift of initial "s" -> "itz" (or the way "איצ" was pronounced at those times) in Talmudic Aramaic/Hebrew is demonstrated in other words, for examples* σ*τόμαχος (*s*tomach) -> *אצ*טומכא (pronounced "itztumacha", ADDED: or "itztumcha").


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## fdb

origumi said:


> * σ*τόμαχος (*s*tomach) -> *אצ*טומכא (pronounced "itztumacha").



Yes, but *σ*τόμαχος has a /t/ after the first letter, signum does not.


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## origumi

fdb said:


> Yes, but *σ*τόμαχος has a /t/ after the first letter, signum does not.


Post #10 supports the idea of istrologos -> itztagnin, as you wrote in #4, and practically rejects signum -> signon -> itztagnin (if we accept whatever written in #10). The "stomach" remark is mainly to explain how "s" can become "tz".


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## rushalaim

How do the Post #10 explain why it accept the first part of the word "itztagnin" ITZT-, and why it doesn't accept the second part -GNIN, throwing out the root "signum" preferring "astra"?

Do you think "stomach" is also from "astra" *אצט*ומכא ?


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> How do the Post #10


Post #10 demonstrates how the first "s" can become "tz". It also explains how the first vowel is "i" and not "a" as in *a*strologos - this was pronounced *i*strologos. It also gives example of Greek final "s" which is either lost and or changed to "m" as in Hebrew masculine plural. It also shows the general phenomenon Greek words that change in Babylonian Aramaic/Hebrew.

Signum as the origin makes sense, yet it got no supporting data so far in this thread, beyond just saying it is.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> Post #10 demonstrates how the first "s" can become "tz". It also explains how the first vowel is "i" and not "a" as in *a*strologos - this was pronounced *i*strologos. It also gives example of Greek final "s" which is either lost and or changed to "m" as in Hebrew masculine plural. It also shows the general phenomenon Greek words that change in Babylonian Aramaic/Hebrew.
> 
> Signum as the origin makes sense, yet it got no supporting data so far in this thread, beyond just saying it is.


_"Astrologos"_ [astra+logos] derived from _Persian_ *אסתר *what derived from *עשתרת *(_Ishtar_). *אסתר *is pronounced as _"Esther"_ not _Astra_ also like your _"istrologos"_.

I wonder, how two different words: Your _"signum"_ and *fdb*'s _"astra"_ point to the common sense, a _"star"_ (Venus), because _Babylonian Ishtar_ is the _"morning star"_-goddess. It's curious!


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## fdb

rushalaim said:


> _"Astrologos"_ [astra+logos] derived from _Persian_ *אסתר *what derived from *עשתרת *(_Ishtar_). *אסתר *is pronounced as _"Esther"_ not _Astra_ also like your _"istrologos"_.
> 
> I wonder, how two different words: Your _"signum"_ and *fdb*'s _"astra"_ point to the common sense, a _"star"_ (Venus), because _Babylonian Ishtar_ is the _"morning star"_-goddess. It's curious!



Did you read what I wrote in #6? Is there any point in writing anything on here?


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## rushalaim

*fdb*, perhaps, you don't agree that _Lat."astra"_ or _Eng."star"_ derived from *עשתרת *(_Ishtar_).


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## berndf

rushalaim said:


> *fdb*, perhaps, you don't agree that _Lat."astra"_ or _Eng."star"_ derived from *עשתרת *(_Ishtar_).


The old surmise that _star_ could an Akkadian loan doesn't have much credibility any more. It is generally accepted that it is a genuine IE word.


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