# AE, BE - Use of "shall" for permission



## Roymalika

In British English, "shall" is used in the first person for asking for permission. We don't use "will" in this case.
Example
*Shall* I use your pencil? (Meaning: Will you permit me to use your pencil?)


Can you let me know, please, whether the rule is correct?


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## boozer

To me, that sounds as if you want to do him a favour by using his pen. 

The standard thing to say is 'May/Can I use your pen?'


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## heypresto

Roymalika said:


> In British English, "shall" is used in the first person for asking for permission.


Where have you seen or heard this?


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> Where have you seen or heard this?


In a grammar book written by a non-native English professor for the preparation of competitive exams.


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## boozer

Roymalika said:


> In a grammar book written by a non-native English professor for the preparation of competitive exams.


And, I suppose, if you have not read his book, you lose 'the competition'?


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## heypresto

Does he give an example or two of this 'rule'?


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## Roymalika

heypresto said:


> Does he give an example or two of this 'rule'?


The example is in the OP.


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## Uncle Jack

Roymalika said:


> In British English, "shall" is used in the first person for asking for permission.


"Shall I...?" is merely the old ordinary first person future tense. It is still used for suggesting things ("Shall I open the window?"), but only rarely in other situations nowadays, and has never (so far as I am aware) contained any element of asking permission. "Shall I use your pencil?" is a way of suggesting that using the other person's pencil may be a good idea. It does not mean you are asking permission to use it.

The usual way of asking permission is to use "can" or "may" ("can" is far more common in modern English). You can use the past tense forms "could" or "might" if you want to be more polite.


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## Roymalika

Thank you.

Shall I ask native speakers of AE to comment on this thread, please?


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## Andygc

Roymalika said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Shall I ask native speakers of AE to comment on this thread, please?


Why did you add "please"? Whether or not you ask them is entirely up to you. You don't need anybody's permission, but if you did your question would be "May I ask native speakers of AE to comment on this thread, please?" See post 2.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

I find "shall I use your pencil?" to be a very strange way of asking permission.  It sounds as if you are contemplating taking the pencil *without* asking permission, while wondering what might happen (e.g., you fear I might say "If you touch that pencil, I will break your fingers!", etc.)


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## Roymalika

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> I find "shall I use your pencil?" to be a very strange way of asking permission.  It sounds as if you are contemplating taking the pencil *without* asking permission, while wondering what might happen (e.g., you fear I might say "If you touch that pencil, I will break your fingers!", etc.)


Can you tell me how you would rephrase the sentence "Shall I use your pencil?"?


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## GreenWhiteBlue

I would rephrase it in the same way everyone else has told you to rephrase it: _May/Could/Can I use your pencil?_


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## Roymalika

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> I would rephrase it in the same way everyone else has told you to rephrase it: _May/Could/Can I use your pencil?_


No, I meant to ask in AE, when "Shall I...?" is used. In which situation?


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## Roymalika

Andygc said:


> Why did you add "please"? Whether or not you ask them is entirely up to you. You don't need anybody's permission, but if you did your question would be "May I ask native speakers of AE to comment on this thread, please?" See pos


I jokingly used "Shall I" in that remark. Nothing serious about it.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Roymalika said:


> No, I meant to ask in AE, when "Shall I...?" is used. In which situation?



"Shall I....?" would be rare in any situation in American English, and it is not used at all to ask permission in the way you have suggested.


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## Chasint

Roymalika said:


> Can you tell me how you would rephrase the sentence "Shall I use your pencil?"?


In BE we might say:

May I use your pencil?
Can I use your pencil?
or
Do you mind if I use your pencil?
Is it okay if I use your pencil?

However I think what you really want to do is to borrow the pencil.

Can/may I borrow your pencil?

Can/may I borrow your pencil for a few moments?
Can/may I borrow your pencil during this lesson?


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## Roymalika

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> It sounds as if you are contemplating taking the pencil without asking permission, while wondering what might happen (e.g., you fear I might say "If you touch that pencil, I will break your fingers!", etc.)


You said "Shall I...?" is rare in any situation in AE, but I wonder how did you get this idea (quoted underlined) from?


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Roymalika said:


> You said "Shall I...?" is rare in any situation in AE, but I wonder how did you get this idea (quoted underlined) from?



As I said, "shall I...?" is not used to ask permission.  Since "shall I...?" is not used to ask permission, and one would assume that you are not babbling words that have no meaning, then some meaning must be assigned to the odd statement "Shall I use your pencil?"  The most likely meaning of this  odd sentence is that you are thinking out loud regarding the results or consequences of your using my pencil.


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## Uncle Jack

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> As I said, "shall I...?" is not used to ask permission.  Since "shall I...?" is not used to ask permission, and one would assume that you are not babbling words that have no meaning, then some meaning must be assigned to the odd statement "Shall I use your pencil?"  The most likely meaning of this  odd sentence is that you are thinking out loud regarding the results or consequences of your using my pencil.


Nice reasoning GWB.  

However, I realise this usage (which seems natural to me, and where "will" does not fit) goes beyond my assertion in post #8 that "shall" in the first person is only used for suggestions. It is also used, in the form of a question, for postulating things.


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## velisarius

Sometimes the line between a* suggestion/offer* in the first person singular and *asking for permission* to do something is rather fine.

_It's hot in here. Shall I open the window? - _It's a suggestion, but it's also apparent that the speaker _wants_ to open the window and is really asking whether they "may" do so without disturbing anyone else.

I agree that "Shall I use your pencil?" can't be seen as a request for permission in standard BE. Could it be regional British?


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## Roymalika

Uncle Jack said:


> this usage (which seems natural to me, and where "will" does not fit) goes beyond my assertion in post #8 that "shall" in the first person is only used for suggestions.


What's your point here Uncle Jack? By your underlined, do you mean that the use of "shall" for permission is natural?


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## Cagey

I agree with velisarius about how 'shall I' might be used as a suggestion amounting to a request for permission.  In this use, it's somewhat formal, but not impossible -- by which I mean that I use it occasionally. 

I also agree that 'may' is by far the most usual way to ask for permission.


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## Uncle Jack

Roymalika said:


> What's your point here Uncle Jack? By your underlined, do you mean that the use of "shall" for permission is natural?


No, GWB was not talking about asking permission. Using "shall" in a first person question to make a postulation is natural. My point was that my statement in post #8 was too narrow, that "shall" in a first person question is not only used for making suggestions. However, I still contend that it is not used for asking permission. The situations where making a suggestion can be construed as asking permission (posts #21 and #23) must be vanishingly small.


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## Roymalika

Uncle Jack said:


> Using "shall" in a first person question to make a postulation is natural.


Could you give me an example for this case please?


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## velisarius

In BE it was formerly in use for asking permission, but it's antiquated usage and I have no idea how common it used to be. A search cannot distuinguish between the two uses of a phrase with _Shall I? _ (suggestion/request for permission).

This example seems to me to be a request for permission, rather than a suggestion. (We should bear in mind that asking permission to kiss someone for the first time used to be standard):

" Well then," said Cyrus, " _*shall I kiss you*_?" " If you please," said he. " And will you not turn from me, as you did just now?" " I will not," said he. 
Cyropædia (1810)

_*Shall I kiss you*_*?* Louis. Yes, an' you can catch me. Catch and kiss. 
America's Lost Plays: The cowled lover and other plays, by R.M. Byrd


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## Glasguensis

Since you keep asking questions about this, I’d like to make a general statement:
The guide you are using describes BE usage from the 1950s. It does not describe BE usage today. Obviously, there are still people today who spoke the English of the 1950s/1960s, and these people may sometimes or usually retain these usages of “shall”. The majority of native speakers, however, only use “shall” occasionally, or not at all. This is in fact a perfect example of how an archaic usage or expression works : for many years after it starts going out of usage it continues to be used but with decreasing frequency, and most native speakers will understand it and will find it unremarkable if another native speaker uses it. 
Asking us for examples is pointless in the sense that we can only give examples of when we personally might use it, and since you don’t know us this is not really useful information for you.


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## velisarius

Glasguensis said:


> The majority of native speakers, however, only use “shall” occasionally, or not at all.


But we do use still use "shall I?" in BE when offering to do something or help someone, don't we? 

_- Will you write out a list for me, please?
- Certainly. *Shall I use your pencil?* I think I've got a pen here somewhere...
- Yes, take my pencil; I'm in a hurry._


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## Glasguensis

That falls into my « occasionally » category. I don’t think I would use it there, personally, although I could say « It’s hot in here - shall I open the window ? »


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## heypresto

Shall we draw this thread to a close now?


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## boozer

heypresto said:


> Shall we draw this thread to a close now?


Good suggestion! That would be doing everyone a favour.


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## velisarius

Before someone puts this thread out of its misery, I just want to add that "shall I/we?" is the interrogative form of _ I'll/we'll, _which is frequently used  when we volunteer to do something.

_-* I'll *help you with that suitcase. if you like.  (*I'll=I will)*
- *Shall I *help you with that suitcase? _Can this kind of question really have gone completely out of fashion? Note that "will I help you..? cannot be used there in standard BE.


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## Thomas Tompion

Roymalika said:


> In British English, "shall" is used in the first person for asking for permission. We don't use "will" in this case.
> Example
> *Shall* I use your pencil? (Meaning: Will you permit me to use your pencil?)
> 
> 
> Can you let me know, please, whether the rule is correct?


I'd find 'Should I use your pencil?' a less stark request here, and a non-offensive way of asking permission, were no other pencils apparently available.

Like some of the other BE speakers, I'd find 'Shall I use your pencil?' a trifle peremptory compared with the, more obvious, 'May I...?' or 'Can I...?'


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## Keith Bradford

velisarius said:


> ... "shall I/we?" is the interrogative form of _ I'll/we'll, _which is frequently used  when we volunteer to do something.
> 
> _-* I'll *help you with that suitcase. if you like.  (*I'll=I will)*
> - *Shall I *help you with that suitcase? _Can this kind of question really have gone completely out of fashion? Note that "will I help you..? cannot be used there in standard BE.



Of course you're right, Velisarius.  The point here is that in the plain statement "_*I'll *help you with that suitcase" _we can't tell whether the speaker meant _I will _or _I shall -- _both of them usually abbreviate to_ I'll. _However, in the question_ shall I...? _there is no abbreviation and we can see the grammar more easily.  _Shall _is still used in about 20% of cases (or by 20% of British writers) according to Ngrams.


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## Thomas Tompion

Glasguensis said:


> The majority of native speakers, however, only use “shall” occasionally, or not at all.


[Edited for tone.  DonnyB - moderator]

The ngrams support my view that in written educated English 'shall' is very much alive, which is not to say that it is frequently used in the way suggested in the OP.


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## Uncle Jack

Roymalika said:


> Could you give me an example for this case please?


This is probably no better example than post #19:


GreenWhiteBlue said:


> "Shall I use your pencil?" The most likely meaning of this odd sentence is that you are thinking out loud regarding the results or consequences of your using my pencil.


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## Uncle Jack

Glasguensis said:


> That falls into my « occasionally » category. I don’t think I would use it there, personally, although I could say « It’s hot in here - shall I open the window ? »


If you wanted to suggest opening the window (or going to the pub), how would you naturally do so?

For me, this is the one situation where "shall" still rules supreme. "Shall I open the window?" and "Shall we go to the pub?" are natural, and "Will I open the window?" is wrong (unless you are asking someone to predict whether or not you will open the window).

Like many other native BrE speakers on here, who are generally well-educated and have a liking for the language, I know the shall/will distinction and I am of sufficient age to have encountered as a child many examples of the traditional usage, so I do sometimes use "shall" as the ordinary first person future tense, and for various forms of emphasis in the second and third person, but I would never recommend these as best practice in modern English.


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## Loob

Glasguensis is from Scotland, Uncle Jack - Scottish English speakers often, I think, use "Will I?" for offers and suggestions.


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## Thomas Tompion

Here are two examples from the British Corpus, where 'Shall I...?' is used to ask permission, or, at least, invite consent.  I'm not clear that the form is as unusual as has been presented in the thread.  Both are, obviously, examples from speech, and the first is Welsh (North):

_If if we were walking down there now I think I could probably give you the er exact place where it was because I've got a young memory of going in there, we used to er walk around the the (unclear) you see. (break-in-recording) Er er *shall* *I* go on now?  Yes, yeah.  Well I suppose I should introduce myself. Er since I'm experting on my very early youth. _

_So I'm, I'm gon na leave it to between (unclear)  *Shall* *I* just throw these away then or do you want them to have a second look at or, yeah, I'll bin them. Right. _


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## Uncle Jack

Loob said:


> Glasguensis is from Scotland, Uncle Jack - Scottish English speakers often, I think, use "Will I?" for offers and suggestions.


Ah yes, thank you for the reminder.


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## Glasguensis

Thomas Tompion said:


> The ngrams support my view that in written educated English 'shall' is very much alive, which is not to say that it is frequently used in the way suggested in the OP.


Statistics can be misleading : this ngram paints a rather different picture. It’s also worth remembering that first person dialogue is more likely to appear in works of fiction, and not all works of fiction contain dialogues featuring 21st century BE  usage.


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## Thomas Tompion

Glasguensis said:


> Statistics can be misleading : this ngram paints a rather different picture. It’s also worth remembering that first person dialogue is more likely to appear in works of fiction, and not all works of fiction contain dialogues featuring 21st century BE  usage.


The dialogues in #39 are contemporary enough for our purposes.


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## Glasguensis

Uncle Jack said:


> If you wanted to suggest opening the window (or going to the pub), how would you naturally do so?
> 
> For me, this is the one situation where "shall" still rules supreme. "Shall I open the window?" and "Shall we go to the pub?" are natural, and "Will I open the window?" is wrong (unless you are asking someone to predict whether or not you will open the window).
> 
> Like many other native BrE speakers on here, who are generally well-educated and have a liking for the language, I know the shall/will distinction and I am of sufficient age to have encountered as a child many examples of the traditional usage, so I do sometimes use "shall" as the ordinary first person future tense, and for various forms of emphasis in the second and third person, but I would never recommend these as best practice in modern English.


My position is very similar to yours - I am familiar with the first person shall and do sometimes use it myself. When I don’t use it it’s usually because I ask the question a different way entirely, as opposed to using « will », although I wouldn’t consider the use of « will » to be « uneducated ».
My point from the beginning is *not* that nobody uses « shall » any more, but that *the advice in the textbook* is out of date


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