# Hindi? - Moinuddin Khwaja - More khwaja tumhi ho



## chrysalid

Hello,

I have been listening to a qawwali song for a long time now but I just cannot make out what kind of a language it has. The name of the song is "More khwaajaa tumhi ho/to mori laaj". I searched the internet for finding an answer and found that it is in Hindi but I am not so familiar with Hindi as to understand the lyrics and tell which period it belongs to.

So, here are the lines I have found on internet. 

"Tumhre dware aan pada hun walian ke maharaj
---
Ek najaria kardo prem ki,sabke ban jaayen kaam 

Nagar nagar mein charcha tora nagar nagar tora raj"

Is that "tumhre" today's tumhaare? 

Shukriya,
BT


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## panjabigator

This sounds like dialectal Hindi/Urdu, but it's not that different.  I don't think it's particular to any period per say, but it's not the speech of the lay Hindi/Urdu speaker.  Other speakers can confirm more.

If no one else does, I'll offer a translation tonight.  Who is the artist?


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## BP.

This language isn't Hindi. Its Purbi. Well you could call it a dialect of early Urdu, naturally having a strong influence of that era's Hindi.

If I remember correctly that line is _moray khwaaja rakh lo mori laaj_ 
(مورے خواجھ رکھ لو موری لاج) - my khwaaja, keep up my dignity/vindicate me before others. Sorry, couldn't translate _laaj_ well. The w in _khwaaja_ is silent.

Yes _tumray_ has the Hindi/Urdu equivalent _tunhaaray_.

Some of these words will make more sense to you once you get the spellings right. Can you read the Arabic/Persian script? In it you might recognize more words.

I'll help you a bit with the meanings:

(Purbi-Urdu-English)
moray - mayray - my/mine (masc)
moree - mayree - my/mine (fem)
tumray - tumhaaray - your/s
dawaaray - darwaazay - door
walioN - awliyaa - friends (from awliyaa Allah - friends of Allah)
najaria - nazar - sight
nagar - nagar - place or country
charcha - charcha - fame
tora - tumhaara - your (masc)
raaj - raaj (Hindi) - rule/suzerainty

Bir şey degil,
BP


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## panjabigator

<laaj> typically means respect or <sharam>, but over here it is something else.  How does "honor" fit?


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## chrysalid

panjabigator said:


> This sounds like dialectal Hindi/Urdu, but it's not that different. I don't think it's particular to any period per say, but it's not the speech of the lay Hindi/Urdu speaker. Other speakers can confirm more.
> 
> If no one else does, I'll offer a translation tonight. Who is the artist?


 
Oh, thank you panjabigator! The version of the qawwali I listened was by late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. The full name is Khwaja Tum Hi Ho, in the album Dust to Gold.



> Can you read the Arabic/Persian script? In it you might recognize more words.


 
And thank you very much BelligerentPacifist, yes I can read Arabic script. Actually I recognized "najar" because in another qawwali (Aaj rang hai) I heard the name Nizamuddin as Nijamuddin. It is curious that the letter "ja with a dot" represents the "z" sound in Devanagari. You can see that j-z relation the other way around in the east Black Sea region of Turkey (and probably various other places in the rest of the world) where you would hear a z instead of j. 

I had been looking for an answer for a very very long time. I have not heard of Purbi though. So is it still being spoken today? If so, where?

I read that this is a manqabat about Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti but I have not been able to find the full text either in latin or Perso-Arabic script.

I found the meanings "shame", "modesty" and "good reputation" for laaj in John Platt's dictionary but don't you think that these meanings, at least the first one, are quite diverse? One more question, dawaaray seems close to deevaar (دیوار). Do you think that there might be a connection?

شکریہ


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## BP.

About the j with a dot: 
unfortunately I can't read the devnagri script, but I know that all letters with a dot are extraneous (come from Farsi, Turkish or Urdu) and may or may not be pronounced differently to the corresponding letter without the dot, depending on the speaker's initiation to the extraneous sound.

"_You can see that j-z relation the *other way around* in..._"
Can you elaborate on this?

"_I have not heard of Purbi though. So is it still being spoken today? If so, where?_"
It must be spoken somewhere. The last person I knew who spoke Purbi died in 2003! There should be others around! 
About the 'where': we know *Ameer Khusrau* composed poetry in the language in the 10th or 11th century AD when he was in Dilli (Delhi). But people from Kanpur, Lucknow, Ilahbad (Allahbad) and more recently a small silver of them in Karachi spoke it.
FYI, the j to z transition also happened to the language.

"good reputation" is the most appropriate translation from among what you two gave.

"_One more question, dawaaray seems close to deevaar (دیوار). Do you think that there might be a connection?_"
دیور(husband's brother) is closer to دیوار(wall) than دوارے is but there's no connection! _dawaaray_(دوارے) appears to have been derived from _dar_(در) - door.


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## chrysalid

BelligerentPacifist said:


> "_You can see that j-z relation the *other way around* in..._"
> Can you elaborate on this?


 
What I meant was that the j-z transition happens in an opposite manner in Turkish. In that qawwali, z is pronounced as j and in that region of Turkey, j is pronounced as z. 

Thank you for those detailed answers.


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## BP.

It is the same in current Purbi. z has taken over j for Perso-Turkic words, but j hasn't dsappeared, if that's what you meant. You have to understand that that poem may be almost 1000 years old.


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## chrysalid

I found out that Purbi is classified as a western Bhojpuri dialect. 
I will have a look at the works of Amir Khusro to have a better understanding of that language.


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## Illuminatus

BP is right about the Dot.

J with a dot for representing Z is the most common use.

Though I would suggest you try learning the Devanagari script. I am sure it will prove to be as fulfilling to you as learning the Arabic/Urdu writing system has been to me.


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## BP.

Is the last coment meant for me? I did try one evening learning the Devanagri script. It was easier than eating pie. 

Forgetting all about it has been easier still!


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## chrysalid

Illuminatus said:


> BP is right about the Dot.
> Though I would suggest you try learning the Devanagari script. I am sure it will prove to be as fulfilling to you as learning the Arabic/Urdu writing system has been to me.


 
Illuminatus, if I am the one you have addressed to, मैं अभी देवनागरी पढ़ सकता हँ; however, it is much easier for me to read Perso-Arabic script.


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## Illuminatus

I aimed it at BP, though I would make corrections in chrysalid's sentence!

मैं अभी देवनागरी पढ़ सकता हँ|
मैं अब देवनागरी पढ़ सकता हूँ|

*abhi *means right now. If you want to say now, you should use *ab

**

*


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## Faylasoof

Chrysalid,

  Purabi, shortened to Purbi is a dialect from Eastern UP / West Bihar, as the name suggests. I’m fairly  accustomed to it as some of our family _khidmatgaaraan_ (servants) spoke it. In The Netherlands I heard the Bhojhpuri dialect from Surinamese of Indian origin and they reminded me of the dialect I heard in Lucknow and later Karachi from those who had emigrated from the rural areas of Eastern UP. The two dialects have their differences but I could follow Bhojpuri and was somewhat taken aback to hear it in Dutch cities. 

  Purabi / Purbi in fact _is_ the indigenous dialect of Eastern UP that includes Luckhnow, Kanpur, Banaras, Allahabad and Western Bihar. Urdu, a development of Delhi’s KhaRi Boli was an import but reached new heights in Luckhnow, both in prose and poetry. But the local dialect in rural areas of Eastern UP is still Purbi / Bhojhpuri.

  Like the example you have, there are many other examples of devotional ‘hyms’ as well as love songs in Purbi (and Bhojpuri too). Here are the opening lines of two songs of a devotional nature:

جھومت آویں ندن كے لالا
گلین ما ناجریا نا لگ جیّے
  jhoomat aawayN nand ke laalaa 
  galliyan ma najaria naa lag jayye


ایری سكھی مورے خواجہ گھر آئے
  aeri sak-hi more khwaajah ghar aay

  The first is symbolic of Hinduism but is actually about our Prophet! The second is a variation of an old love song that replaced the word  _piyaa_ with _khwaajah_ (for Khwaajah Moinuddin Chishti, the Sufi saint buried in Ajmer).  


  In the old Bollywood film Ganga-Jumna, starring Dilip Kumar (Yusuf Khan, himself an Urdu speaking Pathan!), he was heard speaking the Purbi dialect. So I’m told. 

  There are number of these songs & hymns on Youtube. I guess that is where you heard this.  If you need links for these then we can help or else just search with a few names of either Sufis in India and Pakistan or better still artists (qawwaals) who sing these songs.


    You also mentioned Ameer Khusrau. Here is something from him:

_Zehal-e miskin makun taghaful, duraye naina banaye batiyan;
ki taab-e hijran nadaram ay jaan, na leho kaahe lagaye chhatiyan.
Shaban-e hijran daraz chun zulf wa roz-e waslat cho umr kotah;
Sakhi piya ko jo main na dekhun to kaise kaatun andheri ratiyan.

_He alternates Farsi with Braj Bhasha.

  ....._*and there is a bit more by him here*_


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## panjabigator

The language around and outside of Lucknow was also referred to as Avadhi.  Surprisingly, I heard many more Avadhi and Bhojpuri speakers in Chandigarh than I ever heard in Lucknow!


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## Faylasoof

Yes!  In fact in my post on <'What Characterises Luckhnavi’ thread> I mentioned that Anis’ poetry used expressions from Awadhi. Purbi or Purabi is that Eastern dialect that extends into West Bihar from East UP.

Come to think of it, even Mir might have used some expressions from this dialect. Need to look into this too.


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## chrysalid

Dear Faylasoof,

Thank you very much for that detailed answer.

Actually, Qawwaali is what made me start studying Urdu and Hindi. I knew about Qawwaali before and occasionally listened to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan but last year, I was somehow overwhelmed by Qawwali, mostly by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, and took a deep interest in it. Then came in Urdu and Hindi. I cannot always guess the correct pronunciation of words in Urdu so Devanagari helps me with it. But still, it is not easy for me to understand the qawwaali poetry. 

As far as I see, there are different versions of the same poem, which is quite an expected phenomenon. For example, M. Saeed Chishti says "Khwaajaa jii, tum baRaa ho Ghariib Nawaaj" while Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan says "Khwaajaa jii, tum bolo Ghariib Nawaaj"

The last poem you wrote is really interesting. I didn't know that such mixtures of Farsi and other languages existed.

As for the need for help, I always need help in Qawwaali poetry!

Thanks a lot,
BT


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## Faylasoof

chrysalid said:


> Dear Faylasoof,
> As far as I see, there are different versions of the same poem, which is quite an expected phenomenon. For example, M. Saeed Chishti says "Khwaajaa jii, tum baRaa ho Ghariib Nawaaj" while Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan says "Khwaajaa jii, tum bolo Ghariib Nawaaj"
> 
> The last poem you wrote is really interesting. I didn't know that such mixtures of Farsi and other languages existed.
> 
> As for the need for help, I always need help in Qawwaali poetry!
> 
> Thanks a lot,
> BT



Dear Chrysalid,

Well, firstly its nice to see that you enjoy _qawwalis_! I've been a lover of _qawwalis_ for long  - میں قوّالی كا قدیم شیدا ہوں.

Yes! I've also noticed variations from performer to performer and even performance to performance by the same person! Sometimes these are due to the performer taking verses from a different poem or poet and fusing them to an established song / _Hamd / manqabat_. At other times either they are due to the inclusion of otherwise unheard verses from the same poem by the same poet. There are also different editions of the same poem!

 

 What I really like is that a _qawwal _can move from Urdu to Farsi to Braj to Arabic and then back to Urdu. All this in a seamless performance. 

 The example I gave you is typical of Amir Khusrao. There are many others like this. He composed in both the local dialect and Farsi either separately or like this one. His Farsi _diwaan _is voluminous. I read it sometimes. I also read Rumi’s _mathnavi_ and also Hafiz’s poetry amongst other Farsi poets – Iran, Central Asia or Indo-Pak subcontinent.  

 Here is a translation of Khusrao’s verses above:

 Overlook not my misery, blandishing your eyes and weaving  tales,


 Can’t bear the separation my love! Why then not take me to your bosom?
 

  Long like tresses is the night of separation, and short like life is our day of union,
 

  How shall I pass those dark nights if, I get not to see my beloved’s face.


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## panjabigator

Faylasoof, wonderful translation!  Several questions:
1) I was hoping you break down the first sentence a bit.  I'm having difficulty understanding the Persian.  Could you also transliterate _duraaye_ into nastaliq for me?
2) Is _nadaram_ in the second verse a negation?  I recognize and understand _taab_ from <betaab>; does Urdu have <taab> by itself?
3) From my very rudimentary Persian, I assume _roz e waslat_ is "day of union" in Persian.  How is "waslat" different from <wisaal>?  Perhaps they are just synonymous and "waslat" works better metrically.

The last line is clear 

Tashakur,
PG


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## BP.

PG mia.n,

1 - I'll try break the sentences down. I'm unaware of all the meanings and am a talentless translator so bear with me.

_hal-e miskin _- state of this wretch(inaccurate translation)_
taghaful _- apathy_
__taab-e hijran _- wherewithal of enduring separation_
nadaram _- haven't (1st person)_
__ Shaban-e hijran _- nights of separation_
__daraz _- long_
__kotah_ - short_

_2 - Yes it is. E.g you could say _Ma aich biraadar nararum_ - I have no brothers.
The word _taab_ (تاب) is synonymous to _sakat_ or _ist'adaad_. Yes it is usable on its own.

3 - _wiSl_ - _mulaaqaat, milaap_(Hindi?). Literally - reception. I don't know the answer to the other part of your question. But your guess does explain it away.


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## panjabigator

Thank you very much.  The ze before the "hal-e miskin" confused me a bit.

And the word <hijr> can also refer to the Prophet Muhammad's journey to Medina, correct?  I believe I've seen <shab e firaaq> more than <shab e hijr>.


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## Faylasoof

I see BP you have also broken it down so I'll make mine a bit shorter. Here it is PG:

 PG, thanks for the appreciation! Just an off the cuff attempt.

 1) _Ze haale-e-miskiiN makun taghaaful_

 _ze_ = _az_ = from/of; haal = state / condition; _miskiiN_ = poor, pauper, wretched, penurious, miserable; makun = do not; _taghaaful _= negligence

 _duraaye_ = دُراے نَینا /  دوراے نَینا - I was debating whether to use the short or long 'u', as I have heard both! My feeling is for the short.

 2) _nadaaram_ =  ندارم = I do not have -- Infinitive _daashtan_ داشتن = to have-> stem _daar_ دار -> _daaram_ دارم = I have; adding _na_ at the begining -> _nadaaram_

 _taab_ is indeed used in Urdu alone or as a compound verb: _taab na rakhnaa _/ _laanaa_ / rahnaa = to not be able to bear / endure

 _taab laanaa _= to endure

 _taab_ = i) endrance,power, ii) convulsion, twist, curl iii) heat, radiation; iv) luminous, shining

 Here of course the meaning is -> i).

 3) You got it! roz e waSlat is indeed day of union in Persian. Both waSlat and wiSaal are from the Arabic verb _waSala_ (  وَصَلَ  ) = to reach,arrive.

 In Urdu and Farsi we use them with these meanings:
 _wiSaal_ ( وِصَال ) = union / lovers attainment / fruition
 _waSlat_ ( وَصلَت ) = union - in Modern Farsi also means wedlock!

 I think for the period we are looking at both could work but waSlat ( وَصلَت ) perhaps does work better. Of course _wiSaal_ has also been used in this way too. Here is Ghalib:

 یہ نہ تھی ہماری قسمت كہ وصالِ یار ہوتا
 اگر اور جیتے رہتے یہی انتظار ہوتا


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Thank you very much.  The ze before the "hal-e miskin" confused me a bit.
> 
> And the word <hijr> can also refer to the Prophet Muhammad's journey to Medina, correct?  I believe I've seen <shab e firaaq> more than <shab e hijr>.



That is _hijrat_= migration  --- root is the same but different meaning.

Both shab-e-firaaq and shab-e-hijr are used and at the moment I cannot say one is more than the other.


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## panjabigator

Thank you for such a detailed response.  I should really learn Persian!


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## chrysalid

Dear BelligerentPacifist and Faylasoof,

Thank you both for these detailed answers, I was really enlightened. The Persian bit is easy to understand for me but not the other parts. Anyway, in time, I will understand them as well I hope.

I have a question. Does that make any sense to any of you?
"MaaTii sonaa ho"
This is probably not correct but I wrote what I thought I heard.

Do you know any publications about the poetry used in qawwalis?

Shukriya


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## BP.

The phrase you wrote means '[may the] soil/earth become gold'.

_Qawwali_ isn't a poetic genre. Almost any _nazm_ (poem) could be picked up by a qawwal and sung in the _Qawwali_ style, though al;ost always devotional/Sufi peotry is chosen.


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## chrysalid

Thank you for the reply BP. Is maaTii a Hindi word? It's probably not the same word as the maaTi meaning "fat", right?

Actually I know that qawwali is not a poetic genre, just wondered if there are any collections of poems frequently used in qawwalis.

Shukriya


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## Faylasoof

Hello chrysalid,

 I’m sorry I couldn’t say anything earlier as I didn’t log in all day! 
 
‘maaTii soona ho’ does indeed mean just what BP says.

_maaTii = matti_i is from Hindi. The Urdu-Farsi equivalents are _zameen,__khaak_ and _gil_. Arabic is _ardh_, which we use in Urdu too, and _rahaj_ -amongst others- which we normally don't. 

Amir Khusrao is a hot favourite for most qawwalis but almost any poem with a mystical element would be suitable.


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## BP.

Its a variation on the word _miTTi_ (مٌٹی) we have for soil. Synonyms are _khaak_ and _khisht_. Dust is called _gard_. _miTTi_ may be the most Hindi-ish amongst these words.

The word for obese you're looking for is _moTa_(masc) and _moTi_(fem)(موٹی).

About the poems used in qawwaliis - since many qawwaals themselves belong to some Sufi order, they usually pick poems penned by Sufi masters like Rumi, Khusrow etc, and ofcourse local ones if you're talking other languages. But there are other Sufis music genres - kaafis, kalaams etc. Qawwali as devotional music is mostly practiced in Persian, Urdu and the shades of languages between thee two, Punjabi and Sindhi have evolved their distinct genres. Know also that qawwali isn't solely a Muslim tradition, I've seen Hindus and Catholics in Pakistan adopt it for Bhajans and Hymns.

You can find non-devotional music sung qawwaali-style, some music directors have experimented with this in Indian and Pakistani movies, and given us real gems. Nowadays there's even commercial qawwali singing on all manners of banal topics. Saw a video on YT about it. Hasn't thankfully reached Pakistan. Anyway its peripheral and insignificant.


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## BP.

Talk about parallel processing!


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## Faylasoof

I wonder if this parallel processing was due to some cosmic event!

... and talking about being fat, I hope chrysalid heard it right. What if the line was indeed not _maaTii _but _moTii soona ho_! An interesting mutation, which in qawwaliis would be a first!


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## Faylasoof

Faylasoof said:


> _maaTii = matti_i is from Hindi. The Urdu-Farsi equivalents are _zameen,__khaak_ and _gil_. Arabic is _ardh_, which we use in Urdu too, and _rahaj_ -amongst others- which we normally don't.




Arabic also has _turaab_ ( تراب ). How could  forget it! We use it in Urdu too. Also a name for boys, as in Abu Turab / Abu Turaab.


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## BP.

About the word _maku.n_. I was unaware Farsi too uses the _ma_ prefix for negation sometimes (e.g. Pashto does, and the 'don't do' would be _makawa_). Could you enlighten us some more? Thanks.


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## Faylasoof

Ah! Farsi actually uses negation with either of these prefixes:  _ma_- as well as _na_-

_mee kharam_ = I buy / am buying

_namee kharamam_ = I do not buy / am not buying

_nakhar_ = Don't buy!  --- imperative (informal)
_makhar_ = Don't buy! --- imperative (informal) AND _*literary*


_


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## chrysalid

Faylasoof said:


> Hello chrysalid,
> 
> _maaTii = matti_i is from Hindi. The Urdu-Farsi equivalents are _zameen,__khaak_ and _gil_. Arabic is _ardh_, which we use in Urdu too, and _rahaj_ -amongst others- which we normally don't.


 
Except rahaj, we have those words in Turkish as well, some sound old-fashioned today though. Zameen in Turkish would be zemin-floor, khaak would be hak (since we do not have the "kh" sound in Istanbul Turkish)-soil, gil would be kil-clay and ardh would be arz-earth. Is rahaj the same as raaj? 



> The word for obese you're looking for is _moTa_(masc) and _moTi_(fem)(موٹی).


 


> What if the line was indeed not _maaTii _but _moTii soona ho_! An interesting mutation, which in qawwaliis would be a first!


 
Oh yes, moTii-not maTii. I am embarrassed. If it were moTii sona ho, then that would be the dream of a greedy man, wouldn't it?  Quite profitable business.



> You can find non-devotional music sung qawwaali-style, some music directors have experimented with this in Indian and Pakistani movies, and given us real gems.


 
"Yeh ishq ishq hai" from the film Barsaat ki Raat" is probably one of these. It sounds nice though, once you do not consider it as a qawwali. In Turkish, we have a very nice idiomatic expression for such degenerations: sulandırma, which would be "dilluting" with an ironic sense. You take some aspects of qawwali, add some water and mix it but still call it qawwali! 



> Arabic also has _turaab_ ( تراب ). How could forget it! We use it in Urdu too. Also a name for boys, as in Abu Turab / Abu Turaab.


 
Same in Turkish. Turabi is a name for boys. But I didn't know it had such a meaning. 



> _namee kharamam_ = I do not buy / am not buying



Faylasoof Sahab, wouldn't that be "nemi kharam"?

Khodafez


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## Faylasoof

chrysalid said:


> Except rahaj, we have those words in Turkish as well, some sound old-fashioned today though. Zameen in Turkish would be zemin-floor, khaak would be hak (since we do not have the "kh" sound in Istanbul Turkish)-soil, gil would be kil-clay and ardh would be arz-earth. Is rahaj the same as raaj?


 
Interesting to see you use same / similar words. .. and we also pronounce _ardh_ اَرض as _arz_! I gave the first spelling to indicate the presence of  ض.  

No, _rahaj_ رَھَج is from Arabic and means dust/soil. Bit like _turaab_ تُراب. But I think it has a special meaning. I see it in Arabic poetry more. 



> Oh yes, moTii-not maTii. I am embarrassed. If it were moTii sona ho, then that would be the dream of a greedy man, wouldn't it?  Quite profitable business.



Oh yes! Very profitable!




> Same in Turkish. Turabi is a name for boys. But I didn't know it had such a meaning.


 
Turabi is also used in Indo-Pak subcontinent and I'm sure elsewhere too. Actually, Abu Turaab ( ابو  تُراب ) was one of the _kuniyyah/kunyah_ that the Prophet gave to his cousin and later son-in-law, Ali ibn Abi Talib, who preferred it over all other _kunan _(pl.) he had. Later on it became fashionable to name one's sons either Abu Turab or have a surname Turabi / Turaabi. 



> Faylasoof Sahab, wouldn't that be "nemi kharam"?
> 
> Khodafez



Yes indeed! This is a 'typo'. Thanks for pointing it out. 

As the preceding example suggests: _mee kharam =_می خَرَم_ ._ The negation is _namee kharam_ نَمی خَرَم 


خدا نگہدار


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## arsham

I really didn't expect Turks and Indo-Pakistanis to have such a knowledge of Persian!, Though these words seem to have become part of your respective languages!


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## Faylasoof

arsham said:


> I really didn't expect Turks and Indo-Pakistanis to have such a knowledge of Persian!, Though these words seem to have become part of your respective languages!





It might interest you to know that Persian was _the_ court language of Indo-Pak subcontinent until the British decided to end its long reign in 1832 / 1834! Even so, Farsi continued to be used for prose and poetry well into the last century. Moreover, there are still poets in that part of the world who compose in Farsi, thus continuing an almost 1000 year-old tradition!! 

There is a huge amount of Persian prose and poetry literature from the subcontinent. This poetry lives on at a popular level in _qawwalis_.

Urdu, as you perhaps know, has a very mixed heritage that combines Prakrit grammar with grammar and vocabulary influences from Braj Bhasha, Perisan, Arabic and some Turkish. Later Portuguese and English also contributed to knew vocabulary - English, in fact continues to be corrosively influential. 

The name Urdu is itself of Turkish origin - means a camp- and is short for the original: _zabaan-e-urdu-e-mu'allah _= the language of the exalted camp, i.e. the camp of the Mughal Emperors, who were bilingual Turkish-Persian speakers! Another name for Urdu was Reekhtah  ریختہ , which is no longer used in common speech but poets might still resort to it.

South Asia produced many Persian poets, including *Khusrau* (below), *Fayzi*, *Mir* (Urdu-Farsi), *Bedil*, *Ghalib* (Urdu-Farsi), *Iqbal *(Urdu-Farsi)…and many more. 

Here is a couplet of Ghalib, a major Urdu-Farsi poet of the 19th century:

دارم  دلمی  ز آبلہ  نازك  نہاد  تر
آہستہ پا نہم كہ سر خار نازك است

This is Mir on the lovers’ separation – the Wiki article needs to be edited as it doesn’t really say anything about his Farsi poetry and prose output:


میر اگر این است گریہ در ھجران یار
ابر خواھد برد آب از دیدہ گریان ما


 _Both, Ghalib’s and Mir’s verses have also been sung in qawwalis._


…. and here is a couplet from a popular _ghazal_ by Amir  Khusrau Dehlavi(امیر خسرو دھلوی ) that is sung regularly at _qawwaali_ sessions all over South Asia:  

نمی دانم  چہ  منزل  بود  شب  جای كہ من  بودم
بہ ہر سو رقصِ بِسمِل بود شب جای كہ من بودم



امید وارم كہ عبارتھای بالا برھان قاطعی فارسی گویان شبہ جزیرہ  ہند و پاكستان ھستند


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## arsham

Faylasoof said:


> It might interest you to know that Persian was _the_ court language of Indo-Pak subcontinent until the British decided to end its long reign in 1832 / 1834! Even so, Farsi continued to be used for prose and poetry well into the last century. Moreover, there are still poets in that part of the world who compose in Farsi, thus continuing an almost 1000 year-old tradition!!
> 
> There is a huge amount of Persian prose and poetry literature from the subcontinent. This poetry lives on at a popular level in _qawwalis_.
> 
> Urdu, as you perhaps know, has a very mixed heritage that combines Prakrit grammar with grammar and vocabulary influences from Braj Bhasha, Perisan, Arabic and some Turkish. Later Portuguese and English also contributed to knew vocabulary - English, in fact continues to be corrosively influential.
> 
> The name Urdu is itself of Turkish origin - means a camp- and is short for the original: _zabaan-e-urdu-e-mu'allah _= the language of the exalted camp, i.e. the camp of the Mughal Emperors, who were bilingual Turkish-Persian speakers! Another name for Urdu was Reekhtah ریختہ , which is no longer used in common speech but poets might still resort to it.
> 
> South Asia produced many Persian poets, including *Khusrau* (below), *Fayzi*, *Mir* (Urdu-Farsi), *Bedil*, *Ghalib* (Urdu-Farsi), *Iqbal *(Urdu-Farsi)…and many more.
> 
> Here is a couplet of Ghalib, a major Urdu-Farsi poet of the 19th century:
> 
> دارم دلمی ز آبلہ نازك نہاد تر
> آہستہ پا نہم كہ سر خار نازك است
> 
> This is Mir on the lovers’ separation – the Wiki article needs to be edited as it doesn’t really say anything about his Farsi poetry and prose output:
> 
> 
> میر اگر این است گریہ در ھجران یار
> ابر خواھد برد آب از دیدہ گریان ما
> 
> 
> _Both, Ghalib’s and Mir’s verses have also been sung in qawwalis._
> 
> 
> …. and here is a couplet from a popular _ghazal_ by Amir Khusrau Dehlavi(امیر خسرو دھلوی ) that is sung regularly at _qawwaali_ sessions all over South Asia:
> 
> نمی دانم چہ منزل بود شب جای كہ من بودم
> بہ ہر سو رقصِ بِسمِل بود شب جای كہ من بودم
> 
> 
> 
> امید وارم كہ عبارتھای بالا برھان قاطعی فارسی گویان شبہ جزیرہ ہند و پاكستان ھستند


 
Informative post!
I've heard of Iqbaal and Dehlavi, their Persian works are published in Iran, and since late 90s, excerpts of their works are incorporated into the Persian literature textbooks (traditionally, the Persian literature courses at high school and pre-university levels were confined to the study of famous perso-persian poets and writers like Ferdowsi, Sa'di, Hafez, Tusi (author of siyaasatnaameh سیاست نامه), onsor-ol-ma'aali (author of قابوس نامه) etc and some modern writers and poets like nimaa yushij, sohraab sepehri etc.), but I didn't expect the tradition to survive the British rule! 

اشعاری که فرستادی نیک گواه فارسی گویی در شبه قارهً هند و پاکستان است
Nice poem from dehlavi!

کافر عشقم، مسلمانی مرا در کار نیست
هر رگ من تار گشته، حاجت زُنار نیست
از سر بالین من برخیز ای نادان طبیب
دردمند عشق را دارو به جز دیدار نیست
ناخدا بر کشتی ما گر نباشد، گو مباش!
ما خدا داریم ما ناخدا در کار نیست
خلق می*گوید که خسرو بت*پرستی می*کند
آری! آری! می*کنم! با خلق ما را کار نیست


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## Faylasoof

I see you refer to Amir Khusrao / Khusrau as Dehlavi. Since we have quite a few poets (of Farsi and /or Urdu) from Delhi, we always try to give at least their <takhallus> to avoid confusion. Ghalib is also known as Ghalib Dehlavi. But we have no problem here as you indicated who exactly you meant.

 This less than reverential poem by Khusrau is read my many. Both Ghalib and Mir also composed similarly provocative verses when challenged by orthodoxy. 

 I can understand that both Iqbal and Khusrau are part of the curriculum but I must say  I’m rather surprised that Ghalib is not included. If Iqbal represents the most important 20th century Persian poet outside of Iran, then Ghalib has the same stature for the 19th century. 

Yes, Farsi tradition in Indo-Pak survived the British Raj and both Ghalib and Iqbal represent this. When I have a bit more time I hope to tell you more about this. But briefly,formal Farsi language and literature instructions meant reading not just <Indian Farsi> poets but also Firdowsi, Hafiz, Sa’di, Sa’ib-e-Tabrizi, Urfi-e-Shirazi, Anwari, Jami, Khayyam etc.  

  I’ve come across the works of Tusi but so far haven’t read them. I do read Hafiz (lisaan-ul-ghayb  لسان الغیب) a lot. Also Firdowsi, Jami, Khayyam and Sa’di. 

  Some of _Hafiz’s  _and_ Jami's_ ghazals have also been sung as _qawwalis_ but not as common as those of Amir Khusrau. I shall look though. 

In the meantime, here is something from the top of my head – hope I got it right:

 غزل گفتی و در سفتی بآ و خوش بخوان حافط
 كہ     بہ     نظمِ    تو    افشاند    فلك   عقد  ثریا   را


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## BP.

Agree with Fayla, Bedil's star pupil should be represented in the curriculum. Even in my country, his Persian poetry isn't currently taught.

arsham, not only did the tradition survive into the British rule, it is alive and kicking even today. I personally know that around the Quetta region there's a multitude of young poets, most of them bilingual in their poetry. I don't know much about elsewhere, but the closest relative I had that was a poet had bilingual poetry as well.


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## arsham

Faylasoof said:


> I see you refer to Amir Khusrao / Khusrau as Dehlavi. Since we have quite a few poets (of Farsi and /or Urdu) from Delhi, we always try to give at least their <takhallus> to avoid confusion. Ghalib is also known as Ghalib Dehlavi. But we have no problem here as you indicated who exactly you meant.
> 
> This less than reverential poem by Khusrau is read my many. Both Ghalib and Mir also composed similarly provocative verses when challenged by orthodoxy.
> 
> I can understand that both Iqbal and Khusrau are part of the curriculum but I must say I’m rather surprised that Ghalib is not included. If Iqbal represents the most important 20th century Persian poet outside of Iran, then Ghalib has the same stature for the 19th century.
> 
> Yes, Farsi tradition in Indo-Pak survived the British Raj and both Ghalib and Iqbal represent this. When I have a bit more time I hope to tell you more about this. But briefly,formal Farsi language and literature instructions meant reading not just <Indian Farsi> poets but also Firdowsi, Hafiz, Sa’di, Sa’ib-e-Tabrizi, Urfi-e-Shirazi, Anwari, Jami, Khayyam etc.
> 
> I’ve come across the works of Tusi but so far haven’t read them. I do read Hafiz (lisaan-ul-ghayb لسان الغیب) a lot. Also Firdowsi, Jami, Khayyam and Sa’di.
> 
> Some of _Hafiz’s _and_ Jami's_ ghazals have also been sung as _qawwalis_ but not as common as those of Amir Khusrau. I shall look though.
> 
> In the meantime, here is something from the top of my head – hope I got it right:
> 
> غزل گفتی و در سفتی بآ و خوش بخوان حافط
> كہ بہ نظمِ تو افشاند فلك عقد ثریا را


 
You seem very intereseted and well instructed in Persian, you should like this link!

http://rira.ir/rira/php/?

click on she'r-e kohan and you'll get works of a large number of poets, though I am not sure which critical editions have been used for uploading these texts.

I am afraid I should confess I don't know Ghalib. I think the reason or one of the reasons why Iqbal is well known in Iran is because prior to the islamic revolution some Iranian intellectuals "popularised" him mostly because of political issues, now it seems there's a less political approach to his poetry (even though it's difficult because of the contents of his works).

I'll check which other non iranian poets are part of curriculum and hope to read more from you!


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## Faylasoof

arsham said:


> You seem very intereseted and well instructed in Persian, you should like this link!
> http://rira.ir/rira/php/?



Thanks for the link. I have the whole of _Shahnameh_, Hafiz's _diwan_, Khayyam and Rumi's _mathanvi_ but not the others so the link is pretty useful!




> I am afraid I should confess I don't know Ghalib. I think the reason or one of the reasons why Iqbal is well known in Iran is because prior to the islamic revolution some Iranian intellectuals "popularised" him mostly because of political issues, now it seems there's a less political approach to his poetry (even though it's difficult because of the contents of his works).


 
I thought as much. I mean why Iqbal and not Ghalib became so important in Iran. I enjoy them both, actually. Ghalib is more universal in his outlook.


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## arsham

Faylasoof said:


> Thanks for the link. I have the whole of _Shahnameh_, Hafiz's _diwan_, Khayyam and Rumi's _mathanvi_ but not the others so the link is pretty useful!


 
I also have a copy of shahnameh, it's Joules Mole's (ژول مول), but it's not the best edition available. There's also a "Moscow" edition, which was not affordable for me, and Dabir-syaaqi's which is not reliable. The best and the newest critical edition is Xaleqi-Motlaq's (جلال خالقی مطلق), which has been published in Iran in 8 vol. including his notes. Parts of it are available on internet

http://www.shahnameh.com/    (check select a story)

Hafez's divan is very popular in Iran and there are several online versians of it (I used to have a pocket divaan, which I lost), for example this one with English ranslation 

http://www.hafizonlove.com/ 

Natel-Xanlari's edition is said to be the most reliable, but there are more recent editions as well!

and here's Sa'di's golestan (though it's not Forughi's edition of which I have a copy)

http://www.farhangsara.com/fsaadi.htm


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## Faylasoof

Thanks again for more links!

I have a cheap version based on the Moscow edition of the Shahnameh! For Hafiz I have to check which Farsi editions I have. Three in all. He is very popular in Indo-Pak for another reason -- _faal-e-Hafiz_!!

I have only read excerpts from Sa'di's Gulistan. Mine is not Forughi.

Some of Sa'di's verses have also been put to _qawwali_ presentations!


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> About the j with a dot:
> unfortunately I can't read the devnagri script, but I know that all letters with a dot are extraneous (come from Farsi, Turkish or Urdu) and may or may not be pronounced differently to the corresponding letter without the dot, depending on the speaker's initiation to the extraneous sound.
> 
> *This is not totally accurate BP SaaHib. There are two non-Persian/Arabic consonants which have a subscript dot. These are "R" (dot placed below "D") and "Rh" (dot placed below "Dh"). Sanskrit does not have these sounds and it appears they have come from the Dravidian languages. There is a general trend to exclude the dots that differentiate j/z, ph/f, k/q, kha/Kha, g/Gh etc and this has been commented upon by tonyspeed in another thread. A certain Balmukund Gupta has written an essay entitled "Hindi meN bindii" (1900) in which he preaches vehemently against these dots. I hasten to add, he does not mention anything about removing the dots below D and Dh!*
> 
> http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/shacklesnell/308gupta.pdf
> 
> "_One more question, dawaaray seems close to deevaar (دیوار). Do you think that there might be a connection?_"
> دیور(husband's brother) is closer to دیوار(wall) than دوارے is but there's no connection! _dawaaray_(دوارے) appears to have been derived from _dar_(در) - door.
> 
> *No, "dvaare" comes from "dvaar" (from Sanskrit for door). Persian "dar", Sanskrit "dvaar" and English "door" are all linked. Amazing is n't it?*


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## rahulbemba

chrysalid said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have been listening to a qawwali song for a long time now but I just cannot make out what kind of a language it has. The name of the song is "More khwaajaa tumhi ho/to mori laaj". I searched the internet for finding an answer and found that it is in Hindi but I am not so familiar with Hindi as to understand the lyrics and tell which period it belongs to.
> 
> So, here are the lines I have found on internet.
> 
> "Tumhre dware aan pada hun walian ke maharaj
> ---
> Ek najaria kardo prem ki,sabke ban jaayen kaam
> 
> Nagar nagar mein charcha tora nagar nagar tora raj"
> 
> Is that "tumhre" today's tumhaare?



Tumhare / तुम्हरे is used in Hindi also, though it originally comes from some regional sister-languages of Hindi, like Rajasthani. For example in the last year's very popular movie "Peepli Live" there came a folk song which had its famous lines:

तुम्हरे सइया तो खूबै कमात है,
 महंगाई डायन खाये जात है [Ref]

हमरी is for हमारी / hamaari and तुम्हरे is for तुम्हारे / tumhaare. 

Another Rajsthani folk song is here, from Meerabai: 

धुन लावनी 

तुम्हरे कारण सब छोड्या, अब मोहि क्यूं तरसावौ हौ।
बिरह-बिथा लागी उर अंतर, सो तुम आय बुझावौ हो॥

अब छोड़त नहिं बड़ै प्रभुजी, हंसकर तुरत बुलावौ हौ।
मीरा दासी जनम जनम की, अंग से अंग लगावौ हौ॥ [Ref]

You can also find it in this book:Chaukhat Ke Patthar,  By Duttatray Purushottam Hardas [Google Books Link]

You are right that तुम्हरे is same as Hindi's तुम्हारे / tumhaare. Even many Hindi people with regional (e.g. Rajasthani) influences on their language use तुम्हरे in place of तुम्हारे at times and it goes without much attention.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> _duraaye_ = دُراے نَینا /  دوراے نَینا - I was debating whether to use the short or long 'u', as I have heard both! My feeling is for the short.




There is a point of view that the word is "varaa'e" and not "duraa'e". Please see attached link, where Professor Raj Kumar Pathria SaaHib discusses this Ghazal. This gentleman is a retired Professor of Physics from an American university and is an Urdu poet. One of his books is entitled "Sahra Sahra". Please read from "sab se pahle...". 

http://groups.google.com/group/alt....gst&q=amir+khusrau+raj+kumar#713370c703775f2f


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