# Hindi/Urdu: kaash



## Birdcall

I know the word kaash is used in sentences like "kaash tu yahaa.n hoti" (if only you were here), "kaash vo meri salaah maantaa" (if only he believed my advice), etc, but can it be used with the regular subjunctive as in "kaash vo bhi aae" to mean "I wish he'll come too?" (kind of like mujhe aashaa/ummiid hai ki...)


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## panjabigator

Birdcall said:


> I know the word kaash is used in sentences like "kaash tu yahaa.n hoti" (if only you were here), "kaash vo meri salaah maantaa" (if only he believed my advice), etc, but can it be used with the regular subjunctive as in "kaash vo bhi aae" to mean "I wish he'll come too?" (kind of like mujhe aashaa/ummiid hai ki...)



Yes, that sounds perfectly idiomatic.


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## Faylasoof

I concur with PG! Perfectly correct grammatically _and_ idiomatic!


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## omlick

Birdcall said:


> I know the word kaash is used in sentences like "kaash tu yahaa.n hoti" (if only you were here), "kaash vo meri salaah maantaa" (if only he believed my advice), etc, but can it be used with the regular subjunctive as in "kaash vo bhi aae" to mean "I wish he'll come too?" (kind of like mujhe aashaa/ummiid hai ki...)


 

Your use of the conditional instead of the subjunctive with Kaash  in your first phrase (because it an expression of desire) seems odd to me.  

I would say "ho" instead of "hotii" in your first phrase.

Your second phrase, in the past tense, might be okay.  But I would use the past tense construct:

kaash, usne merii salaah maanii hotii


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## Faylasoof

omlick said:


> Your use of the conditional instead of the subjunctive with Kaash  in your first phrase (because it an expression of desire) seems odd to me.
> 
> I would say "ho" instead of "hotii" in your first phrase.


 Actually, Birdcall'a first phrase (_kaash tu yahaa.n hoti_) is perfectly OK (for a female addressee)! For a male addressee, it would of course be: _kaash tu yahaa.n hotaa_.


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## Birdcall

I used hotii b/c the example is a completely counterfactual wish, it's impossible, just hypothetical. Whereas when I used the subjunctive it was for a possibility/uncertainty.


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## panjabigator

omlick said:


> Your use of the conditional instead of the subjunctive with Kaash  in your first phrase (because it an expression of desire) seems odd to me.
> 
> I would say "ho" instead of "hotii" in your first phrase.
> 
> Your second phrase, in the past tense, might be okay.  But I would use the past tense construct:
> 
> kaash, usne merii salaah maanii hotii



Absolutely idiomatic though, however. I agree with Faylasoof and Birdcall.

<kāsh kisī se pyār na hotā>


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## omlick

Faylasoof said:


> Actually, Birdcall'a first phrase (_kaash tu yahaa.n hoti_) is perfectly OK (for a female addressee)! For a male addressee, it would of course be: _kaash tu yahaa.n hotaa_.


 
Okay, but the grammar books directed us to the subjunctive with "kaash" as I recall.


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## Todd The Bod

I've been using "ky" with kaash all this time, ie. "kaash ky mey ap logon ke sath hu" or "kaash ky mera ghar ys se beRa ho".  Should I just drop the "ky", or can "kaash" be used either with it or without it?  Maybe that's why everyone replies to me in English when I join in the conversation....


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## Birdcall

ki with kaash is fine. There's a song from the movie Mohra,

kaash kahii.n aisaa hotaa
keh (ki) do dil hote siine me.n
...takliif na hotii jiine me.n


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## panjabigator

Todd The Bod said:


> I've been using "ky" with kaash all this time, ie. "kaash ky mey ap logon ke sath hu" or "kaash ky mera ghar ys se beRa ho".  Should I just drop the "ky", or can "kaash" be used either with it or without it?  Maybe that's why everyone replies to me in English when I join in the conversation....



Hmmm, I am not too sure about the auxiliary verb there.  I think I'd prefer <hotā> in that case (and subjunctive in others, but not this one).  Can someone comment on the grammar here?  

As for the <ki> conjunction, they both look correct but perhaps the non-<ki> one is a bit more said?

edit: I see Birdcall beat me to it.  Great songs from that movie


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## Faylasoof

Todd The Bod said:


> I've been using "ky" with kaash all this  time, ie. "kaash ky mey ap logon ke sath hu"  or "kaash ky mera ghar ys  se beRa ho".  Should I just drop the "ky", or can "kaash" be used  either  with it or without it?  Maybe that's why everyone replies to me in  English when I join in the conversation....


 
I agree with you PG about the auxilliary verb! It  should be <hotā>. The reasons are the  same that Birdcall mentions above (post#6).
 



panjabigator said:


> Hmmm, I am not too sure about the auxiliary verb there.  I think I'd  prefer <hotā> in that case (and  subjunctive in others, but not this one).  Can someone comment on the  grammar here?
> 
> As for the <ki> conjunction, they both look correct but perhaps  the non-<ki> one is a bit more said?
> ....



I also agree with you about the use of <ki> (in Hindi). Both with and without <ki> are fine. In Urdu, as you know, we use <keh كہ> and as we discussed once before ( a long while ago!) this is the original form. We got both <kaash كاش> and <keh كہ> from Persian and at least for us, the use of <kaash keh كاش كہ > is a little more common.


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## Birdcall

Right, and in Farsi the e in keh is pronounced like the e in hen (English), and the h is silent. Keh (Urdu) sounds closer to the original form, but since in the Urdu script the marker for short i is the same as that for short e in Farsi, I can see how it became ki (short i) in Hindi.

Is the word kaash more common in Urdu than in colloquial Hindi? I actually learned it from Bollywood so I'm not sure if it's said at all.


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## Faylasoof

Birdcall said:


> Right, and in Farsi the e in keh is pronounced like the e in hen (English), and the h is silent. Keh (Urdu) sounds closer to the original form, but since in the Urdu script the marker for short i is the same as that for short e in Farsi, I can see how it became ki (short i) in Hindi.
> 
> Is the word kaash more common in Urdu than in colloquial Hindi? I actually learned it from Bollywood so I'm not sure if it's said at all.



For both spoken Urdu (proper!) and Persian the short <i> and <e> difference you refer are non-existent.  In both the <zer> (short <i> / <e>) are pronounced the same and <ki> may have started as a colloquialism in Urdu itself! I know Urduphones who also say <ki> instead of <keh>. 

As for _keh_, you mostly don't hear the ending<h> in either spoken langauges. We pronounce it, as the <h> in rah! 

BTW, <ki / kii كی> also exists in Urdu but is restricted to some poetry. Means the same as <kehكہ>.

Difficult to say. I hear it a lot from my Hindiphone friends but then most of them are from UP anyway!


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## panjabigator

Faylasoof said:


> Difficult to say. I hear it a lot from my Hindiphone friends but then most of them are from UP anyway!



I think that it's used by both; we learned it in Hindi class (despite using a text that consciously avoids many common words of Persian origin).  My Hindiphone mother also uses it.

A funny aside: I often couldn't tell if my mom made up Hindi words or not as a child (it turns out that most were bona fide words).  I thought <kāsh> was a bastardized form of "gosh."  And I wouldn't put it past her - she says "gee whiz!"


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> I think that it's used by both; we learned it in Hindi class (despite using a text that consciously avoids many common words of Persian origin).  My Hindiphone mother also uses it.
> 
> A funny aside: I often couldn't tell if my mom made up Hindi words or not as a child (it turns out that most were bona fide words).  I thought <kāsh> was a bastardized form of "gosh."  And I wouldn't put it past her - she says "gee whiz!"



Good to have confirmation PG! Thanks!

Funnily when I was just a little lad and started to learn English I thought the reverse! I assumed the English <gosh> was borrowed from our <kaash> during the British Raj! All wrong of course!


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## Birdcall

What do you mean by the Persian/Urdu short i and e difference is non-existent? My mother speaks Farsi and I speak a little, and I know this to be true. For example, Urdu words that end in -ish end in -esh in Farsi, but uses the same vowel marker in writing (zer? I'm only very basically familier with the Perso-Arabic script). And many o's in Urdu (roz) are long u's in Farsi (everyday is har ruuz, the a in har being the a in the English "man)". Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying?


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## Faylasoof

Birdcall said:


> What do you mean by the Persian/Urdu short i and e difference is non-existent? My mother speaks Farsi and I speak a little, and I know this to be true. For example, Urdu words that end in -ish end in -esh in Farsi, but uses the same vowel marker in writing (zer? I'm only very basically familier with the Perso-Arabic script). And many o's in Urdu (roz) are long u's in Farsi (everyday is har ruuz, the a in har being the a in the English "man)". Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying?



I too speak Farsi! In theory _ish_ , for eaxmple, is _ish_! In Iranian Persian pronunciation you do have _ish_ -> _esh_ shift (Tehran accent) but in traditional Indo-Pak Persian as well as in Afghani Persian _ish_ can still be heard. 

As <keh>  (e.g. in _kaash keh_ under discussion) went from Persian to Urdu it seems to have undergone a transformation in the speech of many Urduphones to <ki> -> then passed onto Hindi <ki>. Those of us still saying <keh> are sticking to the original. 

(The <i> is indeed due to what we call <zer>).


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## Birdcall

That makes sense; my mother learned Farsi in Tehran.


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## Todd The Bod

panjabigator said:


> Hmmm, I am not too sure about the auxiliary verb there.  I think I'd prefer <hotā> in that case (and subjunctive in others, but not this one).  Can someone comment on the grammar here?
> 
> As for the <ki> conjunction, they both look correct but perhaps the non-<ki> one is a bit more said?
> 
> edit: I see Birdcall beat me to it.  Great songs from that movie




In which of my sentences, please?  Or are you saying "hota" in both?


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## omlick

Todd The Bod said:


> In which of my sentences, please? Or are you saying "hota" in both?


 
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Basically with kaash you need to use the conditonal or the subjunctive because of the nature of "kaash" which is conditional or expressing a wish.

Use only the present participle of the verb when you wish the condition to be different than it is in the present.

kaash aaj itnii Tha.ND na hotii. (if only it was not so cold today)

Use the past participle plus the present participle of honaa when you wish things had been different in the past (use ne when using a transitive past participle):

kaash mai.n ne aisaa na kiyaa hotaa. (I wish I had not done such a thing)


Use the subjunctive mood when you want things to be different in the future

kaash mai.n kal apnii beTii se miluu.n.


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