# Képzelhetni



## NagyKiss

"Képzelhetni, hogy meghökkent az öreg Rézorr mester".

In languages I know when you say "Imagine..." it is always imperative, here an infinitive is used. Is this how it works in Hungarian with this verb? Could imperative be used?


----------



## Encolpius

Hello, it is a typo, the correct version is: képzelheti i.e. you can imagine. Good luck. Enc.


----------



## NagyKiss

Wow, thanks.


----------



## tomtombp

"Képzelheti", is not an infinitive but as Encolpius said, the "you can imagine" way of usage (I'm not good at grammar terminology, sorry) of the verb "képzelni" in "Magázó" mód. In "Tegező" mód it would be "képzelheted."
Since there are no "tegező" and "magázó" modes in English I don't think there are any English words for them either, but there should be some workaround to express them, I wonder what the most experienced forum members call them.


----------



## tomtombp

By the way, imperative can also be used in Hugarian too, with a slightly different meaning: "Képzelje el..." (magázó mód) and "Képzeld el..." (tegező mód). You can even add "just": "Képzelje csak el"/"Képzeld csak el". Don't ask me about the differences in meaning. I think they are quite subtle. I'd better leave it to others to explain them, if you're interested.


----------



## francisgranada

I don't think that this is a typo. See for example the following (from Mikszáth Kálmán): 
_*Képzelhetni* bosszúságomat, míg nem végre belenyugodtam a dologba, úgy vettem azt, mint egy sorsdrámát. 

_Or an other example about Pinocchio (found also on the internet):_
*Képzelhetni*, hogy sírt, jajgatott, óbégatott a boldogtalan Pinokkió a csapdában. 

__Képzelhetni _here means approximately "it can be imagined", "one can/could imagine" etc... (literally "to be able to imagine", i.e. it's an infinitive).

P.S. The original sentence can be found e.g. here.


----------



## tomtombp

francisgranada said:


> I don't think that this is a typo. See for example the following (from Mikszáth Kálmán):
> _*Képzelhetni* bosszúságomat, míg nem végre belenyugodtam a dologba, úgy vettem azt, mint egy sorsdrámát.
> 
> _Or an other example about Pinocchio (found also on the internet):_
> *Képzelhetni*, hogy sírt, jajgatott, óbégatott a boldogtalan Pinokkió a csapdában.
> 
> __Képzelhetni _here means approximately "it can be imagined", "one can/could imagine" etc... (literally "to be able to imagine", i.e. it's an infinitive).
> 
> P.S. The original sentence can be found e.g. here.



I've never heard "képzelhetni". It's again something that's either archaic or rural/folksy.


----------



## Encolpius

I wouldn't use it and haven't heard it at all. Find it strange, but the reason can be it is ancient Hungarian....


----------



## francisgranada

tomtombp said:


> I've never heard "képzelhetni". It's again something that's either archaic or rural/folksy.


However, it exists . I have already heard (or rather _read_) it and surely not only once. I don't think it is rural or folksy, rather a bit "old fashioned".


----------



## NagyKiss

The original sentence is from the 1969 Pinokkió book, so it is ancient Hungarian then


----------



## francisgranada

NagyKiss said:


> The original sentence is from the 1969 Pinokkió book, so it is ancient Hungarian then


Of course, not ancient . The form _képzelhetni _is surely correct, even if rarely used today. 

An example from 2008, Népszabadság: "A Garam és a Gogol utca közötti jellegtelen irodaépület - uniós fejlesztés folyik benne, képzelhetni... - után az Ipoly utcán átkelve érdemes a Pozsonyi út 54-es ház sarkánál ácsorogni kicsit...."


----------



## Zsanna

I would agree with francis. 1969 couldn't be called "ancient" but as the book was written in the end of the 19th C, the translation may have intended to follow the original style. (Certainly not rural, on the contrary, I would think rather a register between journalistic and literary.) The 2008 quotation should also be convincing.

Even if a typo can never be excluded, I find it difficult to imagine a writer (especially in a tale for kids, at least as it is considered nowadays) to address his audience in a formal way.  
In a written form it sounds really odd, unless it's one character addressing another, but then it should be part of a dialogue.


----------



## Zsanna

NagyKiss said:


> In languages I know when you say "Imagine..." it is always imperative, here an infinitive is used. Is this how it works in Hungarian with this verb? Could imperative be used?


I see what you mean (Képzeld/Képzelje el....!) but it wouldn't fit here because of the way the sentence goes (a simple description of surprise). 

With imperative, it would look like this:
_Képzeld!/Képzelje! Az öreg Rézorr mester meghökkent._
It doesn't work. There is nothing surprising, no interesting event. (There should be something like: Az öreg Rézorr mester beesett az asztal alá ijedtében...)

So "Képzelhetni" could be translated as francis suggested above. (Although I would have thought of "It could be imagined how..." but it is the least of our problems here.)

P.S. Francis, the last link in your post no.6 doesn't work. It says "letiltott" for me.


----------



## francisgranada

Zsanna said:


> ... I find it difficult to imagine a writer (especially in a tale for kids, at least as it is considered nowadays) to address his audience in a formal way.  In a written form it sounds really odd, unless it's one character addressing another, but then it should be part of a dialogue.


Exactly. That's one of the reasons why I practically exclude the possibility of a typo in this case. 

P.S. I don't know why that link is"letiltott" ... I've tried it right now and it works well (maybe it's forbidden for moderators  ...)


----------



## tomtombp

francisgranada said:


> P.S. I don't know why that link is"letiltott" ... I've tried it right now and it works well (maybe it's forbidden for moderators  ...)


It doesn't work for me either. It says in a window in the middle of the page that: "*Ezt az oldalt a szerkesztőség inaktiválta. Az újra aktiválás lehetőségeiről e-mail küldtünk."*


----------

