# yhdet, kahdet, kolmet jne.



## Gavril

Päivää taas,

Are there any clear rules about when to use the plural form of a numeral, such as _yhdet, kahdet, kolmet _etc.? (Ehkä on pykälä _Isossa Suomen Kieliopissa_, jossa tätä asiaa käsitellään.)

As far as I can gather, these forms are used with words that normally appear in the plural (because they refer to a "set" of something that usually has a fixed number), such as _jalat_ "legs", _ohjakset _"reins", _käsineet _"gloves" and so on.

Therefore you could say,

A: _Oletko nähnyt käsineitä pöydällä? _"Have you seen any gloves on the table?"
B: _Kyllä näin yhdet käsineet, en enempiä. _"I did see one pair of gloves, but nothing more."

or
_
Hänen tekohampaansa ovat murtuneet, mutta hänellä on vielä kahtia tekohampaita __jäljellä. _ "His false teeth are broken, but he still has two sets of false teeth left."


Are there any other contexts in which one would use the forms _yhdet, kahdet, kolmet _and so on?

Myös olisi kiva jos korjaisitte esimerkkivirkkeistäni löytämänne virheet. 

Kiitoksia paljon


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## DrWatson

Gavril said:


> Are there any clear rules about when to use the plural form of a numeral, such as _yhdet, kahdet, kolmet _etc.? (Ehkä on pykälä _Isossa Suomen Kieliopissa_, jossa tätä asiaa käsitellään.)


There is: ISK, pykälä 558



Gavril said:


> As far as I can gather, these forms are used with words that normally appear in the plural (because they refer to a "set" of something that usually has a fixed number), such as _jalat_ "legs", _ohjakset _"reins", _käsineet _"gloves" and so on.
> 
> Therefore you could say,
> 
> A: _Oletko nähnyt käsineitä pöydällä? _"Have you seen any gloves on the table?"
> B: _Kyllä näin yhdet käsineet, en enempiä. _"I did see one pair of gloves, but nothing more."
> 
> or
> _
> Hänen tekohampaansa ovat murtuneet, mutta hänellä on vielä kahdet tekohampaat __jäljellä. _ "His false teeth are broken, but he still has two sets of false teeth left."
> 
> 
> Are there any other contexts in which one would use the forms _yhdet, kahdet, kolmet _and so on?


Well, in addition to what you wrote, the only thing I can think of are _plurale tantum_ words, i.e. words that only appear in plural (see the link above). For example, the movie "Four Weddings and a Funeral" in Finnish is "Neljät häät ja yhdet hautajaiset".


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## sakvaka

I just discovered another possible context. You and your friend are in a bar and just about to leave. However, the temptation to stay is growing. _Otetaanko vielä yhdet?_ is the question you may want to pop in such a situation.

I'm not sure why we use the plural. It doesn't even matter that we're two.
_Heiskasen Kalevi alkoi jo pistää karaokelaitteita kasaan ja kiireisimmät laittaa takkejaan päälle. Minä sen sijaan päätin ottaa vielä yhdet._


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## Grumpy Old Man

sakvaka said:


> _Heiskasen Kalevi alkoi jo pistää karaokelaitteita kasaan ja kiireisimmät laittaa takkejaan päälle. Minä sen sijaan päätin ottaa vielä yhdet._


I would definitely say: ... _vielä yhden._


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## Gavril

Päivää,

I just saw another example of _yhdet _that I’m not sure how to translate. The context was something like the following:

_”Asiantuntijat ovat nykyisin sitä mieltä, että.” Ketkä asiantuntijat? No yhdet asiantuntijat vain.
_ 
What does _yhdet asiantuntijat _mean in this case? “A set of experts”, maybe?


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## Hakro

Gavril said:


> _”Asiantuntijat ovat nykyisin sitä mieltä, että.” Ketkä asiantuntijat? No yhdet asiantuntijat vain.
> _ What does _yhdet asiantuntijat _mean in this case? “A set of experts”, maybe?


Not "A set of experts" but "just some experts". This is a colloquial expression you'd use when you don't really know yourself what experts you're talking about.


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## Finland

Hello!



Gavril said:


> I just saw another example of _yhdet _that I’m not sure how to translate. The context was something like the following:
> _”Asiantuntijat ovat nykyisin sitä mieltä, että.” Ketkä asiantuntijat? No yhdet asiantuntijat vain.
> _What does _yhdet asiantuntijat _mean in this case? “A set of experts”, maybe?



Actually no, it is the plural of "yksi asiantuntija" in the sense "eräs asiantuntija". So it could be translated as "some experts [I happen to know]", "these experts [I know]". This structure is frequently used in spoken Finnish. "Yhdet pojat rupes haukkuun meitä." ~ "There were these boys that started picking on us."

HTH
S


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## Finland

Hello!



Hakro said:


> Not "A set of experts" but "just some experts". This is a colloquial expression you'd use when you don't really know yourself what experts you're talking about.



Isn't it almost the other way round, though: some experts that the speaker DOES know? I.e. the equivalent of "eräs" of written Finnish?

S


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## Gavril

Finland said:


> Hello!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually no, it is the plural of "yksi asiantuntija" in the sense "eräs asiantuntija". So it could be translated as "some experts [I happen to know]", "these experts [I know]". This structure is frequently used in spoken Finnish. "Yhdet pojat rupes haukkuun meitä." ~ "There were these boys that started picking on us."
> 
> HTH
> S



Ah, so it's similar to what you see in Romance (and probably in many other) languages -- e.g., Spanish _unos _= plural of _un_(_o_) "one" = "some (number of people or things)".

Kiitos vielä kerran!


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## Hakro

Finland said:


> Isn't it almost the other way round, though: some experts that the speaker DOES know? I.e. the equivalent of "eräs" of written Finnish?


I wouldn't say so. Also in your example "Yhdet pojat..." we didn't really know them. If we knew them we would have defined them more exactly. 

Of course it's also possible that we knew them but we didn't want to tell who they were.

But I think that "No yhdet asiantuntijat vain" means that the speaker has most probably made up the claim "Asiantuntijat ovat nykyisin..." and he/she can't really answer the question "Ketkä asiantuntijat". So I'm sure he/she doesn't really know what experts he/she's speaking about.


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## Finland

Hello!



Gavril said:


> Ah, so it's similar to what you see in Romance (and probably in many other) languages -- e.g., Spanish _unos _= plural of _un_(_o_) "one" = "some (number of people or things)".



Exactly. Like unos/unas in Spanish and des in French.

S


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## Finland

Hello!



Hakro said:


> I wouldn't say so. Also in your example "Yhdet pojat..." we didn't really know them. If we knew them we would have defined them more exactly.
> 
> Of course it's also possible that we knew them but we didn't want to tell who they were.
> 
> But I think that "No yhdet asiantuntijat vain" means that the speaker has most probably made up the claim "Asiantuntijat ovat nykyisin..." and he/she can't really answer the question "Ketkä asiantuntijat". So I'm sure he/she doesn't really know what experts he/she's speaking about.



Hmm.. We'll have to agree to disagree  In my mind, this formula implies that the said experts or whoever are known; if the speaker is just pretending he knows them or does not *want* to tell who they are, that's another cup of tea. In my logic, in case the speaker refers to a more unknown group of experts or boys, he would say "jotkut asiantuntijat/pojat".

Interesting topic at any rate!
S


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## Hakro

Finland said:


> Interesting topic at any rate!


I have to agree with this!

 This is a semantic question and I have to admit that we don't understand the word "yhdet" in the same way, at least in  these examples.

If the original example had been "Yhdet asiantuntijat ovat sitä mieltä, mutta toiset..." I would understand that the speaker knows what experts he/she is speaking about. But the phrase "No yhdet asiantuntijat vain" means to me that the speaker either can't or doesn't want to define who are these experts.


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