# mancher, solcher



## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

Are the following two sentences correct?


Kennen Sie mancher Winters schön?
Do you know some beautiful winters?

Im Fenster gibt es immer solches Brote.
In the window there are always such breads.

Thanks.


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## Quelle

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> Are the following two sentences correct?
> 
> 
> Kennen Sie schöne Winter? ( Or do you want to ask: Do you remember..?)
> Do you know some beautiful winters?
> 
> Im Fenster gibt es immer solches Brote. (or: solches Brot)
> In the window there are always such breads.
> 
> Thanks.


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## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

I have this example in my textbook:

Kennen Sie manche Städte schön.
Do you know some beautiful cities?

Is there some reason why in the following 'mancher' does not
work in the sentence?

 Kennen Sie schöne Winter? ( Or do you want to ask: Do you remember..?)
 Do you know some beautiful winters?

Is it ungrammatical to write:  Kennen Sie mancher schöne Winter?

Maybe the use of the word 'Der Winter' made it impossible as compared
to 'Die Stadte'?


Also, I am assuming that 'solches Brot' is correct because 'solches Brote' should
really be 'solche Brote' since 'Brote' is plural and therefore just has an ending of
an 'e'.  Correct?

 Im Fenster gibt es immer solches Brote. (or: solches Brot)


Thanks.


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## mgsth

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> I have this example in my textbook:
> 
> Kennen Sie manche Städte schön.  _Kennen Sie manche/einige schöne Städte?_
> 
> Is it ungrammatical to write:  Kennen Sie manche*r* schöne Winter? - No, but old-fashionend
> 
> Maybe the use of the word 'Der Winter' made it impossible as compared
> to 'Die Städte'? - No!
> 
> Also, I am assuming that 'solches Brot' is correct because 'solches Brote' should really be 'solche Brote' since 'Brote' is plural and therefore just has an ending of an 'e'.  Correct? - Yes.
> 
> Im Fenster gibt es immer solche*s* Brote. (or: solches Brot)



To the example:
The word order is important, compare:

_Ich kenne einige gute Kneipen. (I know some good pubs.)_
_Ich kenne einige Kneipen gut. (I know some pubs well.)
_
In the first sentence, _gut_ is an adjective and refers to the subject (_Kneipe_), in the second one it is an adverb referring to the verb (_kennen_).

So in the textbook example, _schön_ would be an adverb, and you cannot use it in connection with _kennen_, like in _Ich kenne etwas schön._

The word _manch(er)_, although quite an accurate translation for _some_, will be regarded as old-fashioned in most cases, like here. Depending on the sentence, you can leave it out completely or maybe translate it to _einige_.

In this case, the difference would be:

_Kennst du schöne Städte? - Do you know *any *beautiful cities?
Kennst du *einige *schöne Städte? - Do you know *some *beautiful cities?
_


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## Quelle

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> I have this example in my textbook:
> 
> Kennen Sie manche Städte schön.
> Do you know some beautiful cities?
> 
> 
> Thanks.


 
Maybe in your book is written:
Kennen Sie manche Städte sch*on*?
That would work.
Do you already know some beautiful cities?


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## Robocop

- In the window there are always such breads. (I can hardly imagine a situation where  anyone would tell me that)
- Do you know some beautiful winters? (I cannot imagine anyone asking me that question)
- Do you know some beautiful cities? (this one is more or less acceptable)
Why bother about translation if the original sentence is peculiar in the first place? 
If these sentences *really *are taken from your textbook, you should consider to try and find a better textbook.


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## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

Quelle said:


> Maybe in your book is written:
> Kennen Sie manche Städte sch*on*?
> That would work.
> Do you already know some beautiful cities?



Yes, 'schon' is written without the umlaut.  In this case
can you say:

Kennen Sie mancher schon Winter?
Do you know some beautiful winter?

If 'winter' is not the best word to use (I am trying to 
keep it masculine) can you suggest one?

Thanks.


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## Quelle

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> Yes, 'schon' is written without the umlaut. In this case
> can you say:
> 
> Kennen Sie mancher schon Winter?
> Do you know some beautiful winter?
> 
> If 'winter' is not the best word to use (I am trying to
> keep it masculine) can you suggest one?
> 
> Thanks.


 
No, "schon" doesn't mean beautiful, it is an adverb and means "already, yet".


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## martl

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> Im Fenster gibt es immer solches Brote. (or: solches Brot)


I know of no native german speaker who would say the sentence "im Fenster gibt es solche Brote". "gibt es" in this context has the very narrow meaning of the breads being available (for sale), the bread "ist erhältlich".
This meaning is not associated with a bread lying in a window, as a window doesn't give out breads, it just displays them.
So one would say:

"beim Bäcker Meier gibt es immer solche Brote" (here "gibt es" is possible, he sells them)
but
"In seinem Fenster liegen immer solche Brote"

Martin


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## Arce55

Es gibt nicht nur Brote zu kaufen. Der Satz informiert genau eine Brotequalität, deswegen "im Fenster gibt es solche Brote"
Manuel


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## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

Disgarding my example and using the books exactly they use the 
sentence, "Im fenster gibt es immer solche Blumen."

I assume that this means, "In the window there are always
such flowers."  This is in the textbook itself so I assume it will work.
I will discard the other example I was trying to get the gender
to be masc.

On the second sentence, "Kennen Sie manche Städte schon?" 
it should be correct grammatically and it should mean, "Do you
know some cities already?"

Is this correct now?

Thanks.


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## Quelle

If you want a masculine word: Der Mantel - die Mäntel (coat)
A sentence you are looking for could be: Im Kaufhaus gibt es immer solche Mäntel.


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## brian

Quelle said:


> Maybe in your book is written:
> Kennen Sie manche Städte sch*on*?
> That would work.
> Do you already know some beautiful cities?



I don't think you mean "beautiful" cities here, right?


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## Quelle

brian8733 said:


> I don't think you mean "beautiful" cities here, right?


 
Of course, very right! I don't know why I wrote "beautiful".


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## berndf

Quelle, you didn't write it. It is like that in the original quote (#3). This probably rules out your surmise.


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## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

Quelle said:


> If you want a masculine word: Der Mantel - die Mäntel (coat)
> A sentence you are looking for could be: Im Kaufhaus gibt es immer solche Mäntel.



Yes, but in your sentence you used the feminine 'Die Mäntel' so there must
be a masculine counterpart:

Im Kaufhaus gibt es immer solcher Mantel

'Solcher' is what you would use for masculine correct?


Also, I assume that, "Im fenster gibt es immer solche Blumen," is correct?

Thanks.


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## Quelle

berndf said:


> Quelle, you didn't write it. It is like that in the original quote (#3). This probably rules out your surmise.


 
Thank you. But to be honest: I must have written it, because I put "already" (schon) and I remember that I was thinking about where I have to put "already". Maybe thinking about that I forgot that I had to leave out "schöne".


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## Quelle

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> Yes, but in your sentence you used the feminine 'Die Mäntel' so there must
> be a masculine counterpart:
> 
> Im Kaufhaus gibt es immer solcher Mantel
> 
> 'Solcher' is what you would use for masculine correct?
> 
> 
> Also, I assume that, "Im fenster gibt es immer solche Blumen," is correct?
> 
> Thanks.


No, I used plural.
In singular you can say:
Einen solchen Mantel (acusative) gibt es im Kaufhaus.


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## berndf

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> Yes, but in your sentence you used the feminine 'Die Mäntel' so there must
> be a masculine counterpart:
> 
> Im Kaufhaus gibt es immer solcher Mantel
> 
> 'Solcher' is what you would use for masculine correct?
> 
> 
> Also, I assume that, "Im fenster gibt es immer solche Blumen," is correct?
> 
> Thanks.


 
Beware: "Die Mäntel" is not feminine. Don't confuse the singular feminine definite article "die" with the plural definite article "die" which is applicable to all 3 genders!

"Im Kaufhaus gibt es immer solcher Mantel" is not correct. Sigular you have to use the indefinite article here: "Im Kaufhaus gibt es immer *einen* solche*n* Mantel".


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## bluetoonwithcarrotandnail

Trying to stay away from the accusative, is 

 Im fenster gibt es immer solche Blumen
There are always in the window such flowers

correct and is it in the nominative?

Thanks.


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## brian

The construction "gibt es" always puts the noun in the accusative because it is the object of the verb "geben."

In this case, however, I guess it doesn't matter since "solche Blumen" is both nominative and accusative plural.


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## gaer

Quelle said:


> Thank you. But to be honest: I must have written it, because I put "already" (schon) and I remember that I was thinking about where I have to put "already". Maybe thinking about that I forgot that I had to leave out "schöne".


I know exactly what happened. You assumed, from the word order, that the word should have been "schon", already, but you had both words in you mind, "schon/schön", because of the translation of the original, incorrect sentence:

"Do you know some beautiful winters?"


bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> Yes, but in your sentence you used the feminine 'Die Mäntel' so there must
> be a masculine counterpart:
> 
> Im Kaufhaus gibt es immer solcher Mantel.


Let me assume for a moment that you don't realize where your logic went wrong:

Im Kaufhaus gibt es immer solcher Mantel.
Forget about "Im Kaufhaus"

Es gibt=there is, immer=always
solcher Mantel=such coat???

Mantel, regardless of the gender of the noun (which is masculine), is singular. Since it is accusative, it would have to be "solchen Mantel", but again, that would be "such coat".

German also wants to say "such A coat", but German reverses the word order to "one such coat", and that is why two members gave you:

ein_*en*_ solch_*en*_ Mantel

I don't believe your textbook has covered this yet, so do you see the trouble you are getting into? You are rushing ahead to new concepts too soon, perhaps.

German grammar is wicked for non-natives! 

Gaer


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## berndf

bluetoonwithcarrotandnail said:


> Trying to stay away from the accusative, is
> 
> Im fenster gibt es immer solche Blumen
> There are always in the window such flowers
> 
> correct and is it in the nominative?
> 
> Thanks.


 
I am afraid not. "solche Blumen" is still accusative. In plural, nominative and accusative forms are identical (as brian8733 pointed out earlier). The nominative subject in this sentence is "es".


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## berndf

gaer said:


> German grammar is wicked for non-natives!
> Gaer


 
Not only for non-natives.


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