# sonst begnügte sich... mit schön geformten Plattheiten



## Löwenfrau

Hello!
Now I'm having some trouble with this phrase:

"Du Bois-Reymond bekämpfte diesen Neo-Vitalismus in seiner Weise; er gestand zu, daß er mit so tiefen Sätzen wie die von Bunge einen Sinn nicht verbinden könnte, und berief sich darauf, daß Bunge nicht den Lehrauftrag für Physiologie besäße, also über das Lebensproblem nicht mitzusprechen hätte; sonst begnügte sich Du Bois-Reymond mit schön geformten Plattheiten, welche mich an die schlichtere Plattheit erinnern, die ich gar in einem Vortrage Virchows aus dem Jahre 1858 (»Über die mechanische Auffassung des Lebens«) gefunden habe: »Will man sich nicht in unklare und willkürliche Träumereien vertiefen, so muß man den Begriff des Lebens allein an die lebendigen Wesen knüpfen.« Mauthner

My first reading is: "... otherwise (if DB-R had a different opinion about Bunge) D B-R would be satisfied with [the] beautifully arranged trivialities (of Bunge), which remind me the less pretentious trivialities that I have even found  in a..." 

I'm not altogether confident that I'm getting the correct sense of the sentence. I appreciate your help!


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## Schimmelreiter

_Apart from that, DBR would indulge in nicely formed platitudes, which remind me of the even simpler platitude that I found ...


__begnügte _is in the preterite. One might say _indulged_ but I prefer _would indulge _to indicate his habitual production of platitudes.

It's complacency rather than satisfaction. _indulge _seems to fit.

_gar _seems linked to _schlichtere_: _even simpler



_PS
DBR's platitudes rather than Bunge's, I guess.

PPS
The non-use of an agreeing dative is striking: _wie die von Bunge_


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## bearded

In my opinion, DBR wanted to oppose neo-vitalism, but he confessed the he could not grasp the meaning of Bunge's profound sentences.  Therefore, as an excuse, he affirmed that Bunge had received no teaching assignment for physiology and consequently had no title for expressing opinions.

''For the rest (sonst = uebrigens/ansonsten) he would be satisfied with well-expressed banalities, which remind me of the  simpler banalities that I found even in a lecture by Virchows''

That is my understanding, but different interpretations are also possible.  The word 'sonst' could mean ''on the other hand...''  
EDIT  crossed with SR
I agree with him on ''would indulge'' , which is a better and more correct translation.
I have doubts on 'gar' referring to 'schlichtere'. Due to its position, it might refer to 'gefunden habe'


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## Löwenfrau

What do you think of "planer (or would it be "more plane"?) platitudes"?

"Apart from that", instead of "otherwise", indicates that DBR, although he criticizes Bunge, commits platitudes too?

I'm not sure I understood your P.S...


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## Schimmelreiter

bearded man said:


> I have doubts on 'gar' referring to 'schlichtere'. Due to its position, it might refer to 'gefunden habe'


_I've even found a simpler platitude. = I've found an even simpler platitude.

_What strikes him is not the finding, but the still greater triviality, of the platitude.





Löwenfrau said:


> What do you think of "planer (or would it be "more plane"?) platitudes"?


This would well warrant a Wagnerian alliteration:_ the even plainer platitude. _Purists might argue, though, no alliteration in one language > no alliteration in the other.



Löwenfrau said:


> "Apart from that", instead of "otherwise", indicates that DBR, although he criticizes Bunge, commits platitudes too?
> 
> I'm not sure I understood your P.S...


I see DBR as the utterer of platitudes, not Bunge. DBR's admitting to not understanding Bunge and denying him the right to join the debate may not have been so much of a platitude but apart therefrom, i.e. in the rest of what DBR brought forward in fighting neo-vitalism, there was nothing but nicely worded platitudes. Yet Mauthner found an even greater platitude in one of Virchow's lectures.

I, by the way, insist  that my PPS not go unnoticed: 





Löwenfrau said:


> er gestand zu, daß er mit so tiefen Sätzen wie die von Bunge einen Sinn nicht verbinden könnte


Mauthner, for all the pride he seems to be taking in his mastery of the language, doesn't use the dative where the dative is due for agreement. How dare he!


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> "Apart from that", instead of "otherwise", indicates that DBR, although he criticizes Bunge, commits platitudes too?


No, I'd say "apart from that" refers to fighting Neo-Vitalism. In other words, Mauthner is claiming that DBR did just 2 things: fighting Neo-Vitalism and making well-phrased, empty speeches.



Schimmelreiter said:


> What strikes him is not the finding, but the still greater triviality, of the platitude.



But he says "die ich gar in einem Vortrage Virchows [...] gefunden habe". If you put the emphasis on "Vortrage" then it means criticism of the fact that Virchow even dared to express such platitudes in official (and published) speeches, isn't it?


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## Schimmelreiter

manfy said:


> Schimmelreiter said:
> 
> 
> 
> What strikes him is not the finding, but the still greater triviality, of the platitude.
> 
> 
> 
> But he says "die ich gar in einem Vortrage Virchows [...] gefunden habe". If you put the emphasis on "Vortrage" then it means criticism of the fact that Virchow even dared to express such platitudes in official (and published) speeches, isn't it?
Click to expand...

Your reading is indubitably valid. 

I, for one, read it to mean _which remind me of the simpler platitude, which, in surprising excess thereof, I found in one of Virchow's lectures: "schlichter gar"_


Löwenfrau said:


> welche mich an die schlichtere Plattheit erinnern, die ich gar in einem Vortrage Virchows aus dem Jahre 1858 (»Über die mechanische Auffassung des Lebens«) gefunden habe


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## manfy

Löwenfrau said:


> "[...] begnügte sich Du Bois-Reymond mit schön geformten Plattheiten, welche mich an die schlichtere Plattheit erinnern, [...]"


On second thought, I must admit that also a more literal reading makes good sense, such as those from LF and BM:
It seems, Mauthner is comparing DBR's eloquent platitudes with the (general) simpler ones, which makes a nice contrast: eloquent vs. naive.
Considering that simple (read: naive) platitudes are easy to recognize as such, but eloquent ones are not (but they do remain platitudes nevertheless).

It is noteworthy that Mauthner used plural in the first part but singular in the latter. This singular indicates a generalization of the use of platitudes, in this case the simpler, more naive version. This also supports the idea that Mauthner was not particularly picking on Virchow in the subsequent clause (the name and details were probably just stated to qualify the quote which follows), but on the fact that such naive and obvious platitudes could find their way into formal lectures/speeches/publications at all. 



			
				manfy said:
			
		

> No, I'd say "apart from that" refers to fighting Neo-Vitalism. In other words, Mauthner is claiming that DBR did just 2 things: fighting Neo-Vitalism and making well-phrased, empty speeches.


Now I also had to realize that "sonst" (apart from that/for the rest/besides that) could also be intended to introduce a contrast to the whole subclause where DBR criticizes Bulge - which seems to be the only statement where Mauthner agrees with DBR. So, worse than I thought before, Mauthner claims that DBR made just one agreeable statement: the criticism of Bulge, everything else was eloquent mumbo jumbo.
This interpretation makes more sense than my previous one, considering that Mauthner was a Vitalist, or more accurately: Mauthner was clearly against anti-Vitalists.

-----------------
PS: With this post I'm not discarding SR's interpretation! I'm just offering an additional angle and make no claim that my view is better - I'm just claiming it is a possibility.


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## bearded

@ manfy


> Now I also had to realize that ''sonst''...could also be intended to introduce a contrast to the whole subclause...



Then would you agree that a translation sonst = on the other hand (as I had suggested) is correct?


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## bearded

@ Schimmelreiter
> mit so tiefen Sätzen wie die von Bunge <
Ist es wirklich ein Versehen, wie Du zu meinen scheinst, oder liegt diesem Satz ein möglicher 'Hintergedanke' zugrunde, wie Englisch ''as are..'': with so profound sentences *as are *those by Bunge (wie es jene von Bunge sind)'', was den Nominativ begründen würde ?

> plainer platitude >
I greatly appreciated your joke about alliteration. May I add that 'Plattheiten' could also mean Elemente/Ausdrücke vom Plattdeutschen?


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## Schimmelreiter

Got him. Mauthner made a mistake. Don't you try and justify the nominative! 

PS
You might justify well-nigh any breach of grammar by imagining something elliptical. An apposition is an apposition is an apposition.


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## manfy

bearded man said:


> Then would you agree that a translation sonst = on the other hand (as I had suggested) is correct?


No, it's not that type of contrast where "on the other hand" would work (well).
But your first suggestion fits perfectly: "...he says XXX; for the rest ...". 
That seems to be a very popular criticism in the German-speaking academic world with the implied meaning "Er sagt zwar XXX - und damit hat er ja fast recht. Aber sonst: *alles Quatsch!*" (I've heard it several times before...and once I even received that "honour" myself  )


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> I, by the way, insist  that my PPS not go unnoticed:
> Mauthner, for all the pride he seems to be taking in his mastery of the language, doesn't use the dative where the dative is due for agreement. How dare he!


I noticed, but where do you mean this dative is missing? You mean that it should be written es "wie den von Bunge"?


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## Löwenfrau

Just a question about "schlicht": I don't know to which extend this word has a derogatory meaning, but I tend to read it like this:
einfach = simple
schlicht = simple, but most of the times in the sense of simple-minded (as my other suggestion, "plain").

Am I correct?


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## bearded

Löwenfrau said:


> I noticed, but where do you mean this dative is missing? You mean that it should be written es "wie den von Bunge"?


The correct form would be 'wie denen/denjenigen' (pronoun).


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## Schimmelreiter

Löwenfrau said:


> where do you mean this dative is missing? You mean that it should be written es "wie den von Bunge"?


_wie jenen von Bunge_


Löwenfrau said:


> schlicht = simple, but most of the times in the sense of simple-minded


I believe _simple_ is as derogatory as _schlicht_. After all, there's _simpleton_ but not _*plainton. 


_Cross-posted with bearded man.


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## Löwenfrau

Schimmelreiter said:


> _wie jenen von Bunge_
> 
> I believe _simple_ is as derogatory as _schlicht_. After all, there's _simpleton_ but not _*plainton.
> 
> 
> _Cross-posted with bearded man.



Yes, but you can say "you are complicating things, my thought is very simple" - no derogatory undertone. But "his thought is simple-minded" - doubtless derogatory.


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## bearded

Hello
I think that, since 'schlichtere' is associated with trivialities/banalities, the meaning is derogatory enough...
Besides, in my view a person can be 'simple minded', but a thought cannot.


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## Löwenfrau

You are right, bm - I was actually thinking in Port. "simplório" (maybe you have an equivalent for that in Italian?).


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## Löwenfrau

Just one more thing: when you say that "to indulge" is in this case more correct than "to be satisfied", you're thinking in the meaning of "to tolerate", right? I'm asking because I don't find a perfect equivalent for "indulge" in Portuguese; on the other hand, for "tolerate" we have "tolerar".


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## Schimmelreiter

You don't tolerate what you yourself say. DBR complacently lived up (or down) to his own limited standard.


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## Löwenfrau

using complacently I can find a good solution in Port. Thanks again.


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## bearded

1. In Italian we have the noun 'sempliciotto' referring to a very simpleminded/dumb person.  I don't know if 'simplorio' in Portuguese is a noun (substantive) or an adjective. I am sorry I never studied your beautiful language, although I can understand it at 70-80% when I see it written.
2. SR's ''indulge'' has a different meaning in my opinion.  To indulge in some activity means to dedicate oneself to it, to practise it with pleasure (often to the disapproval of the other people).  You indulge in committing sins, in gambling at the casino etc.  In the case of ''er begnügte sich..'' I think that SR reads it almost as ''er vergnügte sich'', or he found his pleasure (complacencia) in uttering banalities.
EDIT
Sorry, the 2nd page with the most recent posts had escaped my attention, so I replied to LF's former questions.


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## Schimmelreiter

By _complacently_, I mean _contented to a fault; self-satisfied and unconcerned_.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/complacently

By _indulge_, I mean _yield to an inclination.
_http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indulge


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## bearded

Schimmelreiter said:


> By _complacently_, I mean _contented to a fault; self-satisfied and unconcerned_.
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/complacently
> 
> By _indulge_, I mean _yield to an inclination.
> _http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indulge


I think that we are substantially saying the same things.


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## Löwenfrau

I understand.

I can say "permitia-se de bom grado" (to willingly surrender/ yield, also in the sense of finding pleasure). It sounds indeed a more complete phrase.

P.S.: bm, "simplório" is an adjective, but also functions as a substantive (wie im Deutsch, ein substantivietes Adjektiv).

EDIT ADDITION:
And what about "gar"? Can it really refer to "gar schlichtere", in this word order?


welche mich an die schlichtere Plattheit erinnern, die ich gar in einem Vortrage Virchows aus dem Jahre 1858 (»Über die mechanische Auffassung des Lebens«) gefunden habe


I ask because, although bm has pointed in #3 and manfy in #6 that it is more likely to refer to "gar in einem Vortrage", I still feel that the first option (gar schlichtere) fits better.


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## bearded

I maintain my reading ''I even found... or I found...even in a lecture...'', but due to the author's often odd and outdated style, SR's understanding ''even simpler'' cannot be excluded. With manfy, we are' two to one'.


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> I maintain my reading ''I even found... or I found...even in a lecture...'', but due to the author's often odd and outdated style, SR's understanding ''even simpler'' cannot be excluded. With manfy, we are' two to one'.


To make it more even, I also understand _gar _as referring back to _schlichtere_, i.e. _even simplier_.

But maybe we should ask ourselves, if there is a material difference between _I even found a simpler..._ and _I found an even simpler..._


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## Löwenfrau

Hi berndf, I think that the difference between "I even found a simpler.." (or "I found a simpler... even in a conference") and "I found an even simpler.." is quite visible. One thing is to be amazed by an even simpler triviality, and another thing is to be amazed by finding it in a conference. Despite this, I also think that _by the end of the day_ it _doesn't change the whole meaning _of Mauthner's discussion.


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## berndf

Löwenfrau said:


> Despite this, I also think that _by the end of the day_ it _doesn't change the whole meaning _of Mauthner's discussion.


Yes, that's why I asked for a _material _difference.


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