# subir (Spanish)



## francisgranada

Hello,

Why does the Spanish verb _subir_ express a movement upwards, when the prefix _sub _comes from the Latin preposition _sub _meaning "under"? What was the meaning of the verb _subire _(< sub + ire) in Latin?

(in Italian the verb _subire _is used only in abstract sense, meaning "to undergo")

Thanks in advance.


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## Gavril

According to the DRAE (the Real Academia Española dictionary), Latin _subire _meant "llegar, avanzar, arribar" ("to arrive, advance, land [of a ship]"). These were not the only meanings of the verb _subire_, but maybe they were the ones that contributed the most to the semantics of _subir_.

_subir_ also means "to climb, raise, rise" in Portuguese; I am not sure if these meanings are found outside of the Iberian languages.


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## Hulalessar

The word has always puzzled me. For ages I had to say to myself: "It does mean "to go up", doesn't it?" Research indicates it means to go up in Portuguese, Gallician and Asturian. In Romanian _a sui _means to climb up. The Latin is literally_ sub_ (under) + _ire_ (to go). Whilst it means "to go or pass under" and "to undergo", it also means "to come up from under" and "climb". It seems that some Romance languages have homed in on one sense and some on the other.


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## Peterdg

My (old; 1932) Latin Dutch dictionary says about _subire_: (I'll translate the Dutch to English)
I. _General_: Go under something
_Metaphorically_: (of feelings): undergo
II. to come/go to the base of something (e.g. a mountain)
III. to climb, to rise
IV. to follow immediately

The dictionary only describes the vocabulary of a number of classical Latin authors (let's say the most common ones (which we had to read in secondary school): Cicero, Caesar, Horatius, Livius, Ovidius, Sallustius, Tacitus, Vergilius)


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## merquiades

Yes, this verb is curious.  In the Latin dictionary it also states that the verb meant both "climb/ go/ come up/ ascend" and "go/ move/ pass/ sink/ extend underneath/ into" even in Classical Latin.  So like Hulalessar I think because of the dual nature of this verb the Iberian languages kept one of the meanings, and the Gallo-Romance languages another.


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## Nino83

francisgranada said:


> What was the meaning of the verb _subire _(< sub + ire) in Latin?



http://www.dizionario-latino.com/dizionario-latino-italiano.php 

1 passare, andare o venire *sotto* 2 (in senso figurato) subire, *sopportare*, sostenere, sobbarcarsi, sottoporsi, *sottostare* a 3 esporsi a un pericolo, affrontare il destino 4 *salire, scalare* 5 *entrare*, penetrare, introdursi di nascosto 6 avvicinarsi, accostarsi lentamente 7 *subentrare*, succedere, seguire, venire dopo, prendere il posto di qualcuno 8 presentarsi alla mente, venire in animo 9 (di emozioni o sentimenti) sopraggiungere, pervadere, cogliere, sorprendere 10 (della vegetazione) crescere, spuntare 11 andare verso 12 (di fiumi o mari) bagnare 13 (di strade) costeggiare 

It seems that it covers a lot of meanings, both Italian (sopportare, sottostare) and Portuguese/Spanish (salire).


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## francisgranada

So the logic of this "controversy" might be that _sub-_ can express both the direction _down _and _from down_ ... An other example that comes to my mind is _sublevare _which also expresses the movement _from down_ (also figuratively).


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## J.F. de TROYES

francisgranada said:


> So the logic of this "controversy" might be that _sub-_ can express both the direction _down _and _from down_ ... An other example that comes to my mind is _sublevare _which also expresses the movement _from down_ (also figuratively).



Other Latin words show that the prefix _sub-_ conveys this second meaning :  the adverb_ sursum _( sub + versum ) , _from below_, i.e.. _upwards_ ; verbs as _susciper_e, _to take up _; _suspicere, to look up_  ; _surgere ( < sub + regere ), to lift, to raise_ ; _sustollere , to erect_ ; maybe the best example is the adjective_ summus _coming from _sub +*mus_ and meaning _the highest, the top_.  Although _sub _and _super _ have got an opposite meaning, the second originates from the first :  _super <sub + *-ter ._
They may express the same movement, but from two points of view , _sub_ focusing on the starting point ( from below ) and_ super _on the arrival point ( at the top ).

_Sub_ can be traced back to the P.I.E root _*upo _, that gave _ὑπό _(= _sub_ ) and _ὑπέρ _(= _super _) in Greek , but also_ up_ , _-ove _in _above _, _auf _in German ; _über_ in German and_ over _in English map exactly on _ὑπέρ_ or _super_.


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## francisgranada

J.F. de TROYES, thanks for your exhausting and very interesting answer. 

As to the etymology, perhaps the initial _s-_ in _sub/super_ (>_h-_ in Greek) has also contributed somehow to the meanings of these words. Is there any explanation for this _s-_ (as the supposed proto-form is *_upo_)?


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## Penyafort

According to Joan Coromines, the meaning of SUB-IRE is explainable as 'getting to a high place from below', 'go under something (that is higher)'. It must be an old word (in terms of Romance chronology), preserved in the West Iberian languages. 

In the East of Iberia and in France, people preferred to say 'go up' in terms referring to 'climb a mountain':

PODIARE (< PODIUM 'mount') : Aragonese *puyar*, Catalan *pujar*, Occitan *pojar*/*pujar*
MONTARE (< MONTE 'mount') : French *monter*, Occitan *montar*, Old Catalan* muntar *

As you can see, _pujar _and _montar_ exist in Spanish too, with similar but restricted meanings.


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## ahvalj

The meaning "upwards, from below" seems to be original for _sub_, cp. the relevant article in _de Vaan M · 2008 · Etymological dictionary of Latin and the other Italic languages:_ 594–595 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJS1ZxV2dpdnhzUEk&authuser=0); to the examples in #8 I would add especially _sublātus_ "elevated" < "brought upward" (to the mentioned _sustollō_). Interestingly, the semantics of _sublevō_ "to raise, to lift" is mirrored even in the Russian _поднимать/podnʲimatʲ _where the prefix _pod_- meant "below" since the very beginning ("to take below">"to take from below">"to lift, to raise").

The initial _s_- is reliable only in Italic, as in Greek any initial _u>y_ developed an aspiration (_ὕδωρ_ "water" etc.). All other branches have a clear _u_- (including, among others, Balto-Slavic _už_-/_uz_-/_vъz_-<*_ups_-).


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## bearded

Is it a sure thing that the IE root _upo _is also the origin of the _hypèr/uber/super/over _family (#8)?  How can the R be explained?


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## berndf

bearded man said:


> How can the R be explained?


As a comparative suffix (as in _soft - soft*er* - softest_).


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## ahvalj

bearded man said:


> Is it a sure thing that the IE root _upo _is also the origin of the _hypèr/uber/super/over _family (#8)?  How can the R be explained?


*-_r_ is an ancient nominal suffix, found in several relic neutra that avoided acquiring the heteroclitic declension (*-_n_- replacing *-_r_ in oblique cases), cp. Latin _in_ (Greek _ἔν_) and _inter_ (Sanskrit _antar_), _ab_ (Greek _ἀπό_, Sanskrit _apa_, Gothic _af_) and Sanskrit _aparaḥ_ "posterior" (thematization of *_apar_), Gothic _afar_ "after".


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## bearded

ahvalj said:


> *-_r_ is an ancient nominal suffix, found in several relic neutra that avoided acquiring the heteroclitic declension (*-_n_- replacing *-_r_ in oblique cases), cp. Latin _in_ (Greek _ἔν_) and _inter_ (Sanskrit _antar_), _ab_ (Greek _ἀπό_, Sanskrit _apa_, Gothic _af_) and Sanskrit _aparaḥ_ "posterior" (thematization of *_apar_), Gothic _afar_ "after".


All the examples you quote (inter/antar, aparah, afar/after) actually seem to refer to a comparison between two elements, which would confirm berndf's opinion (comparative suffix).  In some cases (af_ter, _in_ter, antar) _even the typical Greek adjectival comparative suffix (-teròs) is appearing (which reminds me of Germ. an_der, _Lat. al_ter)..._


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## ahvalj

bearded man said:


> All the examples you quote (inter/antar, aparah, afar/after) actually seem to refer to a comparison between two elements, which would confirm berndf's opinion (comparative suffix).  In some cases (af_ter, _in_ter, antar) _even the typical Greek adjectival comparative suffix (-teròs) is appearing (which reminds me of Germ. an_der, _Lat. al_ter)..._


These are two different suffixes: the PIE *-_tero_- (which is, by the way, thematic, *-_ro_-,  i. e. newer than *-_r_) in vocabulary adjectives with the meaning "opposed to" (the source of the later Greek and Indo-Iranic Comparative) and the modern English grammatical Comparative degree -_er_ < Gothic -_iz_- < PIE *-_is_- (Latin _ma-jor _but_ ma-jus _and_ ma-jes-tās_).

Latin uses -_ter_ with an original, non-rhotacistic, _r_ for producing adverbs from the III declension (_breviter_).

More on the substantival *-_r_ can be found here: _Burrow T · 2001 · The Sanskrit language:_ 127–133 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_7IkEzr9hyJbnRsajFpUmJZZW8&authuser=0).


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## bearded

And cannot the R in _super/over etc. _be interpreted as a comparative suffix from PIE '-is'?  In prepositions, a comparative suffix would appear more natural to me than a substantival ending (I may well be mistaken, since my etymological studies go back to many years ago).


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## ahvalj

bearded man said:


> And cannot the R in _super/over etc. _be interpreted as a comparative suffix from PIE '-is'?  In prepositions, a comparative suffix would appear more natural to me than a substantival ending (I may well be mistaken, since my etymological studies go back to many years ago).


The rhotacism *-_s_->>-_z_->-_r_- is attested only within Italic and Germanic, so since e. g. Greek and Sanskrit also show -_r_-, this comparison can't be substantiated. As far as I understand, we're dealing here with remnants of the pre-late PIE suffixes, and thus it is very hard to tell what was their original meaning and whether it was grammatical or simply word-formational. Yes, *-_tero_- in the adjectives has specialized in the attested IE languages and to some extent probably in late PIE, but we have not enough data to evaluate other instances of *-_ter_ or *-_er_ in adverbs and adjectives. But, since there are other suffixes used in adverbs (e. g. *-_i_, *-_o_, *-_os_/*-_s, *-n-_), why should this -_r_ be any special?


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## mataripis

It is possible that subir is related to super of English and yper of Ellinika.


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## bearded

mataripis said:


> It is possible that subir is related to super of English and yper of Ellinika.


I would say no, not directly.  Subir comes from Latin sub-ire (to go upwards).  The simple verb is 'ire' (to go) and for the 'sub' part see discussion above.


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## mataripis

Then sub in subir is sub of English( part of) plus ire- to go and aera ( of going up).


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## berndf

mataripis said:


> Then sub in subir is sub of English( part) plus ire- to go


Yes.


mataripis said:


> and aera ( of going up).


I don't understand. What is "aera"? In which language?


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## mataripis

Ere in Spanish and Aera in Greek.


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## berndf

mataripis said:


> Ere in Spanish and Aera in Greek.


I don't now and cannot find a Spanish verb (form) _ere_ or a Greek verb (form) _aera_. Can you be more specific?


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## mataripis

It is English Air. Ere in pidgin Spanish and Aera in Greek. Spanish verbs end in ar er and ir naturally and  I think ir in subir is contracted form of ere that does not need to repeat since it is natural for infinitives to have ending in ar er and ir.


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## berndf

mataripis said:


> It is English Air. Ere in pidgin Spanish and Aera in Greek. Spanish verbs end in ar er and ir naturally and  I think ir in subir is contracted form of ere that does not need to repeat since it is natural for infinitives to have ending in ar er and ir.


Ah! You mean the Greek verb _a(e)írō = to raise_. Got you now. 
I don't think this is in any way related to Latin _ire_.


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