# Der Fahrer wählt seinen Namen aus der Liste. (personal pronoun)



## Reike83

Dear all,

I have a (rather stupid) question, but would be thankful for any help.
If I had to write, e.g. "der Fahrer wählt seinen Namen aus der Liste", how do I have to translate "sein"?:

The driver selects its name / his name / their name from the list?

Thank you in advance and best regards!


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## Schimmelreiter

Reike83 said:


> their


in this gender-mainstreamed time and age.


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## Reike83

Schimmelreiter said:


> in this gender-mainstreamed time and age.



Thank you very much!!!!


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## bearded

So you seem to agree on 'their'.
But isn't the sentence 'the driver selects their name from the list' very ambiguous?  I would understand that he selects the name of other people.


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## manfy

Schimmelreiter said:


> in this gender-mainstreamed time and age.


 I have a doubt!
How do you get from the German Singular to an English Plural?


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## bearded

And I will add one more doubt:
how would you then translate _Der Fahrer wählt ihren/deren Namen aus der Liste?_


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## bearded

manfy said:


> I have a doubt!
> How do you get from the German Singular to an English Plural?


Maybe SR was thinking of formulations like 'nobody can feel safe in their own house'.


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## Frank78

It all depends on the context. I take it that he chooses/selects his own name, not somebody else's:

If a specific male driver is meant: his

If it's a general statement and Fahrer also includes females: "their" or "his/her" or "his" (a little dated)


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## Reike83

Frank78 said:


> It all depends on the context. I take it that he chooses/selects his own name, not somebody else's:
> 
> If a specific male driver is meant: his
> 
> If it's a general statement and Fahrer also includes females: "their" or "his/her" or "his" (a little dated)



That's the problem, it doesn't only refer to a male driver. I've read the "their" version so many times, but wasn't sure if it's used officially...The "his/her" version would be fine, I think.


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## Schimmelreiter

Style-guides commonly advise against _he/she, s/he, he or she, his/her _and_ his or her. 

_
The #1 advice is for the problem to be avoided in the first place: 

_The drivers select their names from the list.
_


Unless the singular's avoidable, the #2 advice is for the "singular" _they/their _to be used.


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## perny

Reike83 said:


> That's the problem, it doesn't only refer to a male driver. I've read the "their" version so many times, but wasn't sure if it's used officially...*The "his/her" version would be fine, I think.*



It is possible, of course, but it is not idiomatic and much less common. 

Schimmelreiter is right, especially in speech (non-colloquial included).

The specific type of person, i.e.  indeterminate vs personal or singular vs plural, would be inferred from context.


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## manfy

Reike83 said:


> That's the problem, it doesn't only refer to a male driver. *I've read the "their" version so many times*, ...


Seriously? Is that new, politically correct English now?
Well, everything's possible but... 'the driver (singular) selects their (plural) name (singular) ...' just doesn't work for me for the German 'der Fahrer (grammatically masculine, and yet gender-independent) wählt seinen (grammatically congruent to subject) Namen'. (it does work with a different meaning, though!)
I'd be curious to hear what a native speaker thinks about that.


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## Thelb4

Singular they is neither new nor politically-correct. Shakespeare, Chaucer, etc. all used it. It is frequently used (more often in colloquial speech) whenever one refers to a person of unknown gender or identity. A prescriptivist may look down their nose at it, but it is now an integral part of standard English. Most people use it every day without even noticing.


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## Reike83

I have just asked my English neighbours (I didn't want to disturb them in the first place) and they confirmed that it's "their". And it hasn't anything to do with political correctness  Thank you all and have a nice evening!


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## ayuda?

Frank78 said:


> It all depends on the context. I take it that he chooses/selects his own name, not somebody else's:
> 
> If a specific male driver is meant: his
> 
> If it's a general statement and Fahrer also includes females: "their" or "his/her" or "his" (a little dated)



Google Search>his her vs their grammar>[See below + others]
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/generic-singular-pronouns
Excerpt andSummary:
=Can you use “they”and “their” when you don’t know a person’s sex? In other words, can “they” and“their” be gender-neutral singular pronouns? 
=At this point writers struggle because English has a big, gaping pronoun hole*--we have no word to describe a single person if we don’t know whether he or she is male or female.* We could write *“When a student succeeds*, he should thank his teacher," "she should thank her teacher," "he or she should thank his or her teacher," or something else. 

*Example.[all variations of the same sentence and today’s]…a bit of a language landmine [today]….*
=*Ex. 1.)*  When *a student* [male? female? ] succeeds, *he *should thank *his* teacher?  
[In all the older grammar books, this used to be the solid rule.]
=*Ex. 2.)* When *a student *[male? female? ] succeeds, *they* should thank *their* teacher?  
[This is what you seem to hear most often today because *his *started to sound sexist.] [I’d recommend this for general conversation.]
=*Ex. 3.)* When *a student *[male? female? ] succeeds, *he/she* [also *he or she*]  should thank *his *or* her *teacher? 
[This appears to be the latest version, but it sounds very awkward to a lot of people, I think.] For strict grammar test purposes, I’d recommend this.]
=When *a student *[male? female?] succeeds, she [vs. he] should thank her teacher. [ Wow! This sounds worse and even more sexist  than using *he*—a bit too politically correct (PC). [This is news to me. I have _never_ heard it used like that until I read it in this article—forget you ever saw it!]

*Note:* [FYI] Here is a video from Merriam-Webster, a well-known and respected English dictionary that goes into some detail on the subject, if anyone is interested. [It’s going toward *their *nowadays.]
http://www.merriam-webster.com/video/  [ See-The Awkward Case of 'His or Her'-][his/her vs. their, etc.]


*Bottom Line:*
=Most people use [*he*...*his] *= [*they*…*their*] in this type of sentence.
=If you are taking a grammar test or something has to be very formal, use [*he*…*she*] and [*his*…*her*].


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## Schimmelreiter

ayuda? said:


> When *a student *[male? female? ] succeeds, *they* should thank *their* teacher?
> [This is what you seem to hear most often today because *his *started to sound sexist.]


Exactly. So how come Thelb4 denies the P.C. aspect, saying,


Thelb4 said:


> Singular they is neither new nor politically-correct


and so does Reike83, saying,


Reike83 said:


> it hasn't anything to do with political correctness


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## Frank78

Perseas said:


> Hallo an alle,
> 
> isn't "die Fahrerin" so common in German? I 'm asking because, it would demand "her name" (and similarly "der Fahrer --> his name" ). Danke.



What do you mean?

"Die Fahrerin" can only be used if all possible drivers are female which is not the case here while "der Fahrer" is generic for men and women drivers.

PC fanatics might write "Der/die Fahrer/-in wählt seinen/ihren Namen aus der Liste"


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## Perseas

Frank78 said:


> Hallo an alle,
> 
> isn't "die Fahrerin" so common in German? I 'm asking because, it would  demand "her name" (and similarly "der Fahrer --> his name" ). Danke.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean?
> 
> "Die Fahrerin" can only be used if all possible drivers are female which is not the case here while "der Fahrer" is generic for men and women drivers.
> 
> PC fanatics might write "Der/die Fahrer/-in wählt seinen/ihren Namen aus der Liste"
Click to expand...

Thanks Frank! I didn' t know this information. 
Meanwhile I had deleted my post (I thought it was off-topic), before I saw your answer.


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## ayuda?

Schimmelreiter said:


> Exactly. So how come Thelb4 denies the P.C. aspect, saying,
> and so does Reike83, saying,



In all fairness, I think the use of *he*, in this case, was in such commom usage for so long that _the average person would not even think of it as_ _sexist._That’s the way it was for me, too. I believe that is what is meant by it here. It seems that the usage only recently got scrutinized for not being gender neutral enough. And if I were not so interested in language, I don’t think Imight have even notice it!
So, a non-native might not pick that up right away. That change is really that recent. Maybe it had something to do with women’s rights and Women’s Liberation. I’m not a historian, so that’s just my guess. And that why the use of *his or her *has come into use and is heard more often today. [IMHO]
However, if you consciously look at the previous, exclusive use of *his*, I agree that in recent years it might sound sexist to PC-sensitive ears. I hope everyone gets my drift.


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## perny

ayuda? said:


> In all fairness, I think the use of *he*, in this case, was in such commom usage for so long that _the average person would not even think of it as_ _sexist._That’s the way it was for me, too. I believe that is what is meant by it here. It seems that the usage only recently got scrutinized for not being gender neutral enough. And if I were not so interested in language, I don’t think Imight have even notice it!
> So, a non-native might not pick that up right away. That change is really that recent. Maybe it had something to do with women’s rights and Women’s Liberation. I’m not a historian, so that’s just my guess. And that why the use of *his or her *has come into use and is heard more often today. [IMHO]
> However, if you consciously look at the previous, exclusive use of *his*, I agree that in recent years it might sound sexist to PC-sensitive ears. I hope everyone gets my drift.



I believe there is a strong cultural difference here that is being overlooked. 

In British English, singular-_they _dates back to *before* Shakespeare. It is may be as old as when the base word was introduced via Old Norse. It has been taught in schools for at least most of the 20th century. Despite the possibility of very early 20th century prescriptivists or grammarians saying otherwise for newspaper or state-level formal documents, there are likely people alive today who saw the emergence of the Suffragettes (i.e. true PC) who used the singular-_they _before and after in almost all their communications their entire lives.

In other words, in every respect, singular-_they_ is the norm, not the exception in British English across most registers for as long as anyone can remember. This may be as much about "grammatical pragmatism" than anything to do with gender identity/PC, since most taught before the very late 20th century would not have had such associations with the language.


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## ayuda?

perny said:


> I believe there is a strong cultural difference here that is being overlooked.
> 
> In British English, singular-_they _dates back to *before* Shakespeare.
> In other words, in every respect, singular-_they_ is the norm, not the exception in British English across most registers for as long as anyone can remember. This may be as much about "grammatical pragmatism" than anything to do with gender identity/PC, since most taught before the very late 20th century would not have had such associations with the language.



Yes, absolutely yes.
I am only speaking for American English usage. Let me make that clear. And I would not presume to speak for anyone from the UK who speaks British English. Are you British?
I can only clarify what I consider to be the norm here.

*Let me clarify a few points:*
I never stated that *they* hasn’t existed since way back when, nor did I ever say it _stopped _being used.
What is _new (recent) _is that it has replaced *he*, as far as being PC, and that is more recent.
I think your reply might have been a bit hasty. 
If you read the post closely and listen to the video link, these things mentioned are quite explicitly documented. 

*This is the summary and progression:*
*=**They *becomes common usage during the period  the *King James Bible(1611) *[video: apx. :40à]
*=**He *used to avoid the use of the plural pronoun during the* 18th century *[video: apx. :58à][This is what is meant by “recent.”]
*=**They *and *he *have *existed together* [the norm] for a very, very long time. He is singular, but sexist, in a strictly grammatical sense.
*=**They **used it **again **in more modern times* because *he *can be considered sexist, in a strictly grammatical sense
*=**He *or* she *very, very recent usage. [video: apx.1:09à] has come into use very recently use with movements like Women’s Liberation, i.e., also quite true PC.


*Botton Line:*
*No one* is saying *they *wasn’t used long ago nor didn’t continue to be the norm here along with he and continues to be used. Read closely, nothing was said to the contrary.
I, myself, have always instinctually just used* they*.
The exception is this *his and her—*that has become part of the accepted norm in American English. 
And whenever they had a chance to choose between *he *or* she *back then (1700s), they chose *he*—that _is _sexist and represented the attitudes of the times! (I’d be willing to bet a bunch of guys made that decision.)
It_ is _part of the norm. You might hear *any one of the three *at any given time in spoken American English.[*he* or *he and she* being less likely than *they*] 
What is the cultural difference in British English today? Is *he and she*  part of the norm now in British English? I would be interested in getting your expertise on that.


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## manfy

ayuda? said:


> Google Search>his her vs their grammar>[See below + others]
> http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/generic-singular-pronouns



Thanks for this link. It has some interesting info, especially also in the sublinks.
I just realized, I use it too whenever the pronoun refers to semantic plural, e.g. 'nobody knows what they should do'. Outside of that I subconsciously rephrase the sentence to avoid the problem - well, actually my language center is doing that for me, so I never really have to give it a second thought.

And as I thought, this link shows there are cases where this singular 'they/their' just doesn't work, hence it should not be used blindly.
One case they phrase as:_"Where singular "their" *cannot* be used is when referring to a strongly-individualized single person about whom there is some specific information."
_​


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## perny

ayuda? said:


> It_ is _part of the norm. You might hear *any one of the three *at any given time in spoken American English.
> What is the cultural difference in British English today? Is *he and she*  part of the norm now in British English? I would be interested in getting your expertise on that.



You will never hear _he_ for the indeterminate in contemporary British English unless,
1. they mean from context someone already male
2. more rarely, they mean it is something specific taken by all to be naturally or by history consistently dominated by males 
3. it is an old government document, perhaps to do with the written law (legalese)
4. if you try really, really hard you may find some old, fuddy-duddy journalist using it in a broadsheet newspaper a decade or so ago (think Financial Times or the like). Do not be surprised if it is an article discussing the English language...

You will never hear _he/she_ (_he or she_) used in speech in contemporary British English unless, 
1. it is some high level adult setting, often very formal or academic special occasion, where the presenter is effectively reading from a written script or wants to stress a point. e.g. from specific context or the politeness of the company. Repetition is often avoided
2. or it is in newspaper or formal written register, e.g. official government documents. In the former, the repetition of such usage is highly avoided in most cases. In the latter, as is the case with most official documents, repetition is irrelevant and it is an issue of the style of that document.
3. or it is some strange transgender type reference where the identity of a specific person is not formally established. If it is in a written register, the writer may not have decided on a specific convention for gender identity.

_His and Her _(_His or Her_) is actually a little bit different from _he/she_. It is quite often used for occasions, invitations, (very) polite company inclusiveness, or entertainment contrasts (think comedy). The more special these events, the more likely it could be used, e.g. weddings.


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## perpend

Reike83 said:


> I have just asked my English neighbours (I didn't want to disturb them in the first place) and they confirmed that it's "their". And it hasn't anything to do with political correctness  Thank you all and have a nice evening!



It's mildly interesting, but Reike checked out in #14 with a "reliable" source---his/her "English" neighbors , and well, there wasn't any context to begin with in this thread, to speak of.

I mean all of that in the best way.


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## bearded

There are two questions which - it seems to me - are still unanswered in this discussion:
1. would you really say 'der Fahrer' as a category, if it referred to men and women (#17)? Is German a 'machist' language? (Warum 'die Ministerin', aber 'der Fahrer'?)
2. supposing 'their name' is correct, how can you distinguish (in the sentence ''the driver selects their name from the list'') whether it means _Der Fahrer wählt seinen Namen aus der Liste _or _Der Fahrer wählt ihren _(plural) _Namen aus der Liste?
_I think that the above mentioned usage of 'their' can only be valid/applied as long as it does not cause misunderstandings.


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## Hutschi

Hi, in German we have some methods.

1. Der Fahrer - for both man and woman, than it is "er". This is the traditional form und used until nowadays. In publications at the beginning, there is often a note that "der Fahrer" is used for both sexes to improve the readibility, sometimes, the female form is used as generic form together with such a notice, but seldom.)
2. Der Fahrer oder die Fahrerin - er oder sie (complicate, as in English)
3. Die FahrerIn (Binnen-I to define that it is male or female) - there is no corresponding pronoun - this is no standard language see also http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binnen-I -  eine/n FahrerIn

4. Fahrer/in (with slash) - this is part of standard language usage

---

As technical writer, I try to use gender neutral language.

One way is : I speak to the receiver.

"Fahren Sie nach links." rather than  "Der Fahrer biegt nach links ab." - Mostly in user manuals this style is better than "er/sie" and tells the other directly what to do. 

If it is not possible I stick mostly to the male form, except in examples.

---
The "gender mainstreaming" approach is rather new in German, and I have the feeling that it replaces real changes by language changes.

It would be better to give equal rights instead of mainstreaming the gender only.
("das Gender Mainstreaming" is the German word.)

---

In German the gender does not indicate the sex.

Compare:

der Mensch - gender male, sex male or female
die Frau - female
das Mädchen - gender neutral, sex female
Die Stadtverwaltung - gender female. No sex
der Mann - male
"man" - male or female
das Männchen - gender neutral, sex male
die Brust - gender female - but der Busen - gender male




> 1. would you really say 'der Fahrer' as a category, if it referred to men and women (#17)? Is German a 'machist' language? (Warum 'die Ministerin', aber 'der Fahrer'?)



Indeed, as category I'd say "der Minister, der Fahrer".

For a single female person I'd say
die Fahrerin
die Ministerin

---

Even the "Grundgesetz" sticks to the traditional form:

Example:
http://www.bundestag.de/bundestag/aufgaben/rechtsgrundlagen/grundgesetz/gg_05/245132

*Der Bundespräsident*


(both for men and women.)

*Die Bundesregierung*

*Artikel 62*

Die Bundesregierung besteht aus dem Bundeskanzler und aus den Bundesministern.
(generic)

but for a special person you have

"die Bundeskanzlerin Angela Merkel".
You could say grammatically correct: Der Bundeskanzler Angela Merkel. - but it would not be "political correct" anymore.


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## Frank78

bearded man said:


> 1. would you really say 'der Fahrer' as a category, if it referred to men and women (#17)? Is German a 'machist' language? (Warum 'die Ministerin', aber 'der Fahrer'?)



Only those who cannot distinguish between natural sex and grammatical gender would say that.

There are also "die Person", "die Geisel", "das Mitglied", "das Opfer" etc. which can also include men.

But you must have the same problem in Italian, or not? How's the problem solved, do you always mention male and female form?


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## bearded

@ Frank78
No, we nearly always use the male form only, but Italian is admittedly a macho language.
Thanks, anyway, to you and Hutschi, for drawing my attention on German usage.

And so far nobody was willing to deal with my 2nd question (ambiguity of 'their' in the sentence.).


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## Hutschi

bearded man said:


> ...
> 
> 2. supposing 'their name' is correct, how can you distinguish (in the sentence ''the driver selects their name from the list'') whether it means _Der Fahrer wählt seinen Namen aus der Liste _or _Der Fahrer wählt ihren _(plural) _Namen aus der Liste?
> _I think that the above mentioned usage of 'their' can only be valid/applied as long as it does not cause misunderstandings.




Hi,
it can only be misunderstood if all have the same name, else it is ''the driver selects their name*s* from the list''.

I really think in non-isolated environment as in sentences in the forum, the context makes it clear. This is because pronouns need a referent, a word they refer to.

If you compare the German sentence you wrote:

_Der Fahrer wählt ihren _(plural) _Namen aus der Liste? 
_it is only clear if you write "(plural) after "ihren" - which is not done in "real life".

Each language has many such words.


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## bearded

It is true that only the context (which has not been given) would clarify.  I was thinking of several families - e.g. in a bus - and the driver selecting the name of one of those.
And 'ihren ' in German would also be ambiguous (their or her). Thank you anyway.


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## Schimmelreiter

I especially like _themself.

Who considers themself a good driver?
_


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## bearded

> Hutschi:
> each language has many such words


True, but not each language has a convenient alternative like 'his/her' at its(their?) disposal, which would disambiguate...


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