# ~か~かわからない



## adexx

Which is correct (in spoken language)?
- 暇かどうかわからない / 暇だかどうかわからない / 暇であるかどうかわからない
- 学生かどうかわからない / 学生だかどうかわからない / 学生であるかどうかわからない


----------



## wathavy

Casual/ see comment / formal.
I think.

Comment;
暇だかどうかわからない->暇だかどうだかわからない
seems slightly more natural to me and both work fine to me.
I don't identify these as formal.


----------



## adexx

Thanks. 
So the first 2 are casual and commonly used in everyday conversation?


----------



## Dheara

adexx said:


> Which is correct (in spoken language)?
> - 暇かどうかわからない / 暇だかどうかわからない / 暇であるかどうかわからない
> - 学生かどうかわからない / 学生だかどうかわからない / 学生であるかどうかわからない



In front of the question mark か you never use だ, as far as I know！　, so 暇だかどうかわからない and 学生だかどうかわからない　are not correct. You cannot say, for example, *あなたは学生だか。In coloquial language, you simply ask　あなたは学生？, or politely: あなたは学生ですか。 
～であるかどうか　sounds more like written language.


----------



## Wishfull

Dheara said:


> In front of the question mark か you never use だ, as far as I know！　, so 暇だかどうかわからない and 学生だかどうかわからない　are not correct. You cannot say, for example, *あなたは学生だか。In coloquial language, you simply ask　あなたは学生？, or politely: あなたは学生ですか。
> ～であるかどうか　sounds more like written language.



暇だか？
暇だかどうかわからない。
学生だか？
学生だかどうかわからない。  In this sentence, "か”　is not a simple question maker. Besides, I wonder it is a question maker or not.


He is a student. (OK)
He is a student?
Is he a student?(OK)
I don't know he is a student. (OK)
I don't know is he a student.

Do you know what I mean by these example sentences?
What I want to say is, the rule, which is applied to a simple question sentence, might not be applied to a complex sentence.

So, だ＋か　is OK, in real, natural Japanese, in this context.

edit; I can't explain clearly.


----------



## Dheara

Thanks, Wishfull.
I guess it sounds like it is a little suspension between ～だ and か～　in sentences like 学生だ  かどうか判らない。

学生だ...かどうか判らない。It rather sounds to me like a monologue, like a rhetorical question, or like you are hesitating to answer because you are not sure and take a second to think if is right/true or not
(He is a student??? hmmmmm... I'm not sure if he is or not)

while
学生かどうか判らない sounds to me like giving a a quick, straight answer. (I don't know if he is a student or not).

The other night my husband told me that Noun+だ＋かどうか is not used so much and it sounds like "昔の言い方", and lately people just place the かどうか right after the Noun...


----------



## lrosa

Wishfull said:


> He is a student. (OK)
> He is a student? However, this kind of sentence is commonly used when someone is surprised (What?? He is a student? Really?)
> Is he a student?(OK)
> I don't know if  he is a student. (OK)
> I don't know is he a student.


----------



## RomanticBoy

Wishfull said:


> 暇だか？
> 暇だかどうかわからない。
> 学生だか？
> 学生だかどうかわからない。 In this sentence, "か”　is not a simple question maker. Besides, I wonder it is a question maker or not.
> 
> 
> He is a student. (OK)
> He is a student?
> Is he a student?(OK)
> I don't know he is a student. (OK)
> I don't know is he a student.
> 
> Do you know what I mean by these example sentences?
> What I want to say is, the rule, which is applied to a simple question sentence, might not be applied to a complex sentence.
> 
> So, だ＋か　is OK, in real, natural Japanese, in this context.
> 
> edit; I can't explain clearly.


 
I was just reading Murakami today（ダンス・ダンス・ダンス） and saw an example of だ＋か、as follows.

「そう、あの白骨は全部で六個あったのだ。五つまでは誰だかわかっている。」

Could this be considered a question marker?


----------



## Dheara

Wishfull said:


> 暇だか？ //  暇だかどうかわからない。 //  学生だか？// 学生だかどうかわからない。 * In this sentence, "か”　is not a simple question maker. Besides, I wonder it is a question maker or not.*
> 
> Do you know what I mean by these example sentences?
> *What I want to say is, the rule, which is applied to a simple question sentence, might not be applied to a complex sentence.*
> So, だ＋か　is OK, in real, natural Japanese, in this context.


I see! But is it right what I said above? That it sounds like it is a little suspension  beween Nounだ and かどうかわからない？Like taking a very short break to think better if is right or not what you said?
Sorry... Thank you...

RomanticBoy said:


> I was just reading Murakami today（ダンス・ダンス・ダンス） and saw an example of だ＋か、as follows.
> 「そう、あの白骨は全部で六個あったのだ。五つまでは誰だかわかっている。」   Could this be considered a question marker?


According to A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, (pg.166-168):
"In informal speech, da after Adj Na (stem) and Noun drops".
Formation:
{V / Adj (i)} か
　話す・話しますか。　　　高い・高いですか。

{Adj (Na) (stem) / N}　｛∅/です｝　か
静か・静かですか。　　　　先生・先生ですか。

(...)　
4.　When the informal form of _na_-type Adjectives and the copula precede the question marker か、　だ drops. A possible reason is that だ、 the informal form of です, expresses a strong assertion and it conflicts with the question marker か, which expresses the speaker's uncertainty about something.

So, I suppose that the か in 





> 誰だかわかっている


 it is not considered question marker...


----------



## Dheara

I looked in Kodansha's Romanized Japanese English Dictionary (although I'm not using it anymore):

*か *​① 《As a clause-final particle か marks a clause as a question. The copula form *だ is optionally ommited before か in non-final clauses. *When か is sentence-final, だ cannot appear before it.
Question sentences in the informal style are ordinarily marked only with rising intonation, and using か at the end of such sentences sound quite rough. 》

So, *as Wishfull said*,


> What I want to say is that the rule (Noun（だ） か。）, which is applied to a simple question sentence, might not be applied to a complex sentence　（Noun （だ）かどうかわからない）.
> So, だ＋か　is OK, in real, natural Japanese, in this context.


----------



## Flaminius

Dheara said:


> So, I suppose that the か in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 誰だかわかっている
> 
> 
> 
> it is not considered question marker...
Click to expand...

It is a complementiser.  Here, _-ka_ marks the boundary between the embedded _wh_-clause and the main clause.  If it were a question marker, _-ka_ should be placed at the end of the main clause.


----------



## Dheara

Thank you, Flaminius!


----------



## Wishfull

Thank you, lrosa, for your correction of my English.
That is helpful.



Dheara said:


> The other night my husband told me that Noun+だ＋かどうか is not used so much and it sounds like "昔の言い方", and lately people just place the かどうか right after the Noun...



Hi.
I wonder how old your husband is. It is very interesting, because I myself think だかどうか　is quite natural and not old at all.
I live in the west part of Japan, and there might be district's difference, as well as generation difference.

Anyway, my previous post is not good, I think.
It made confusion.
So please delete my previous post from your head.



Flaminius said:


> It is a complementiser.  Here, _-ka_ marks the boundary between the embedded _wh_-clause and the main clause.  If it were a question marker, _-ka_ should be placed at the end of the main clause.



Thanks, Flam, for your clear explanation.


----------



## Dheara

Wishfull said:


> Hi.
> I wonder how old your husband is. It is very interesting, because I myself think だかどうか　is quite natural and not old at all.
> I live in the west part of Japan, and there might be district's difference, as well as generation difference.
> 
> Anyway, my previous post is not good, I think.
> It made confusion.
> So please delete my previous post from your head.



Well, first of all, my husband is 3 years older than you, so I could say you belong to the same generation...and 20 years older than me, by the way... 
Maybe in Tokyo many people just don't use Noun+だ before かどうか...。
Well, anyway, I understood what you mean and there is no reason to delete your previous post from my head... 

As I wrote earlier today, I understood from the explanations written in Kodansha's Romanized Japanese English Dictionary that だ is optionally ommited before か in non-final clauses. 
This is an example from the dictionary:
あの人は誰（だ）か知りません。


----------

