# Racism in Russia



## Layzie

привет!

I read a rather shocking article the other day.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4737468.stm

I just wanted to ask our Russian friends on this forum how widespread this epidemic is. Is it comparable to pre-civil rights United States? I want to think that the article is sensationalizing a limited problem, just as there are skinheads in other europeans countries but it's not the general norm to be racist there, as I understand.


----------



## .   1

I glanced at the link.
There is not one single country in the world that is inherently racist.
I believe that about 97% of people are wonderful and caring individuals.
The rest are arseholes and this article is about these poor sad lonely 3 percenters.

.,,


----------



## Thomas1

Hello, 

I won't answer your question but I'd like to point out that similar information was released in Polnad too. A few days ago or so I watched a TV news and they said that rasizm in Russia is escalating not only towards Afro-Americans but also Asians and other people of different skin colour. I also found this article in Polish press of similar tone. The situation seems to be somewhat serious as showed by the media but I have some doubts and suspect this can be the fact that they are simply (over)exaggerating looking for some sensational issues to garn more attention as attacks on racial basis happen in my country too as well as everywhere else, I think.

Tom


----------



## .   1

For every reported act of ugliness there must be hundreds of random acts of kindness and senseless beauty that go unreported.

.,,


----------



## vince

True, but the severity of these attacks is what is shocking enough to be reported.


----------



## übermönch

. said:


> The rest are arseholes and this article is about these poor sad lonely 3 percenters.
> 
> .,,


If it only was so. Populist and highly xenophobic parties LDPR and Rodina got a considerable amount of seats in the Federative parliament. Same tendencies can be seen in Austria and southern France.
http://www.ishr.org/publications/2004/Duma_2003.htm


			
				sophocles said:
			
		

> I think in the Russian context it is also derived from deep rooted xenophobia. The Soviet system stifled the natural tendencies of people through state repression.


That not only works for Russia, but for all of former Eastern Bloc; i also wouldn't say it's about repression of nationalism untill some 17yrs. ago, but rather the bad living conditions and depressing economical situation. The tendencies both to the left, as to the right are slitely stronger. In the area of former GDR the people rather elect approx. to the same percentage communists and nazis, as people in the west elect leftist socialists and reactionars.


----------



## Lusitania

I'm amazed. As there are large communities of Russians and Ukranians in Portugal and there aren't any reported cases of racism. In fact, I met many black people (african and non-african) that went to Russian to study in the soviet period and they got married to Russian people and they live long steady marriages and never suffered racism in Russia. Should it be a recent phenomenon?


----------



## Rusañol&Runglish

Hello! 

I'm Russian myself, and I happen to study at RUDN (PFUR - Peoples' Friendship University of Russia), mentioned in the article, along with representatives of about 100 countries. 
Nevertheless, I was shocked by the article. Actually I trully believe this information is somewhat exaggerated. 
There was a big fire in our university some years ago, and all the journalists were saying that was an act of racism, that skinheads had done that, etc. However, the real cause of the fire was a simple electrical fuse...
I'm not sure, but no one of my foreign friends who live in Russia (there are quite a few Africans among them) has ever said he/she is afraid of living in this country. Moreover, they do all the things they like, go for a walk at any time of the day, go to night-clubs, etc. 
Anyway, there's always a black sheep... And i admit these cases could have actually taken place. 
However, in any country of the world can happen such things... For example, a year ago one of my professors while in Madrid, Spain was attacked and robbed at 9 o'clock in the morning in one of the central squares of the city. Please, note it's just an example that came to my mind and not an accusation of any type against the Spanish! (Les pido perdo'n a Uds.)


----------



## Layzie

Ah, thanks for the input. I think I was somewhat right in that this is exaggerated and sensationalized.


----------



## Etcetera

I am studying at Moscow State University. There's a lot of foreign students here: some of them come for short periods of time (say, three or four months), but some spend here all five or six years (it depends on the faculty, program chosen etc). And I can tell you that there wasn't a single act of violence against those students, at least in the last four years. And they're mostly Africans or Koreans!
To say the truth, it's not Africans and Koreans who are in danger in Russia. People from Caucasus, Georgia and other regions and countries along the Southern board of Russia are more likely to cause skinheads' anger.


----------



## .   1

Layzie said:


> Ah, thanks for the input. I think I was somewhat right in that this is exaggerated and sensationalized.


I would say that this is absolutely correct.
I can not believe that any culture is more or less racist than any other culture.
I can not believe that any culture is more or less intelligent than any other culture.
I can not believe that any culture is more or less human than any other culture.

.,,


----------



## Hakro

. said:


> I can not believe that any culture is more or less racist than any other culture.
> I can not believe that any culture is more or less intelligent than any other culture.
> I can not believe that any culture is more or less human than any other culture.
> 
> .,,


I can accept the second and the third but not the first one. There's so much proof about this throughout the history. All three are more or less inborn features but racism is easily taught to any people.


----------



## .   1

Hakro said:


> I can accept the second and the third but not the first one. There's so much proof about this throughout the history. All three are more or less inborn features but racism is easily taught to any people.


There must have been a staggering number of people who skipped school that day.
I am open and interested in learning but I doubt that anybody could teach me to be racist.

.,,


----------



## Outsider

. said:


> I would say that this is absolutely correct.
> I can not believe that any culture is more or less racist than any other culture.
> I can not believe that any culture is more or less intelligent than any other culture.
> I can not believe that any culture is more or less human than any other culture.
> 
> .,,


I agree with the second and the third, but not necessarily with the first.


----------



## .   1

Outsider said:


> I agree with the second and the third, but not necessarily with the first.


This is a beautifully constructed and wonderfully intended self contradicting parody.
Thanks mate.

.,,


----------



## Hakro

. said:


> I am open and interested in learning but I doubt that anybody could teach me to be racist.


I believe you. But you must have seen that millions and millions of people around the world have been taught.


----------



## .   1

Hakro said:


> I believe you. But you must have seen that millions and millions of people around the world have been taught.


No I have not.  I have seen some filtered news reports carefully culled to make the world look ugly but I do not believe that this is indicative of the state of humanity.  We are all the same no matter which way we look at it.

.,,


----------



## Hakro

. said:


> No I have not. I have seen some filtered news reports carefully culled to make the world look ugly but I do not believe that this is indicative of the state of humanity. We are all the same no matter which way we look at it.


Well, if you haven't read your history books - or if you don't want to understand them - there's nothing I can do. But the fact are facts.


----------



## LouisaB

. said:


> No I have not. I have seen some filtered news reports carefully culled to make the world look ugly but I do not believe that this is indicative of the state of humanity. We are all the same no matter which way we look at it.
> 
> .,,


 
I think the sentence under discussion is actually your first - that no _culture_ is more racist than another. I'm afraid I think it can be. I'm nervous of giving examples for fear of being political, but would hope it's fairly well recognised that the Nazi Party deliberately _cultivated _anti-semitism as an official part of their creed, and I am sure there are other political parties and religions that have done something similar. I must make it absolutely clear this is no reflection whatsoever on any race or country - only on specific creeds.

But in principle I whole-heartedly agree with your sentiment, and could add that while some people may in the past have been taught to be racist, history also gives us some sublime examples where individuals have refused to accept that teaching, even at the risk of their own lives.

LouisaB


----------



## .   1

Hakro said:


> Well, if you haven't read your history books - or if you don't want to understand them - there's nothing I can do. But the fact are facts.


I have read more than my fair share of history and am yet to be convinced that any culture is more racist than another culture.  I do not believe that Nazism was a culture.  It was and is an abhorence.  It was a twisting of thought by carefully manipulated media control but it died a nasty death and it lasted less than a generation as did any of the myriad sick cults that have been created by sick twisted individuals and rejected by our humanity.

.,,


----------



## maxiogee

Hakro said:


> I can accept the second and the third but not the first one. There's so much proof about this throughout the history. All three are more or less inborn features but racism is easily taught to any people.



I would agree with Hakro - and I would go further. I would suggest that - as the song in South Pacific has it - _You've got to be taught to hate_. We pick up irrational behaviour from other people.
Oh yes, children can and do pick on the 'outsider' and the 'different' without any prompting from adults, but it can usually all 'blow over' as soon as some other victim offers themself as a target. Then the ex-victim suddenly becomes accepted and may even join in the bullying and ostracisation of the newbie.
Long-term victimisation is something we learn, parents impart more than they mean to when raising their children. Casual attitudes and comments can become warped and misunderstood in a child's mind and they can grow up with an attitude (to anything) which would startle their parents, who can then ask themselves "where did she get that from? Not from us, surely?"


----------



## Etcetera

I agree with Tony and Hakro. 
But the problem of racism is deeper. We usually talk only about the attitude of members of the 'senior race' towards immigrants. But have you ever thought about the bahaviour of these immigrants?
I'm not against immigration, I know a lot of people who moved to Russia from Georgia - and they're fine people. But many, many immigrants haven't received good education, they know very little about how to behave in the society, and they know very little about what rules of behaviour are accepted in Russia. How would you react if an immigrant grabbed your hand and started to ask something, in rather bad Russian, and in a very impolite way (using ты, etc)? You wouldn't be pleased with it, would you?
In my opinion, if someone decides to move to another country, they must learn as much as possible about this country and try not to break any rules accapted in this country. If people see that someone is friendly to them, they will be friendly to him or her, in their turn.


----------



## Lusitania

. said:


> I would say that this is absolutely correct.
> I can not believe that any culture is more or less racist than any other culture.
> I can not believe that any culture is more or less intelligent than any other culture.
> I can not believe that any culture is more or less human than any other culture.
> 
> .,,


 

I sort of agree on the first one despite all the people that disagreed with this one.

I think that are several forms of racism and they can be disguised.

For instants, I met a nordic girl in an international meeting. She wanted to visit Portugal and so I invited to my house. She was with me for a week in my house, using my car, etc.

On the last day she left and at the airport she said "It was lovely that I had this opportunity to visit Portugal. I like to visit poor countries to stimulate their economy."

She didn't stimulate my economy unfortunatelly. Also I've notice this humanitarian syndrom is quite common in some "humanitarian" countries.

I find it quite racist, a demonstration of ignorance. Paternalism can also be a form of oppression.


----------



## Etcetera

Lusitania, the behaviour of the girl is shoking.
I wonder if she herself understood how insulting her words were.


----------



## Lusitania

Etcetera said:


> Lusitania, the behaviour of the girl is shoking.
> I wonder if she herself understood how insulting her words were.


 

I did told her. Later we met again on another meeting and she was trying to go to Morocco and Spain through other partners on the project and I told her that I felt and she didn't understood what I meant.

What's even more shocking is that I had to pay for my own studies, house and car. On my own and she has all this government subsidies and she hasn't finish her studies yet and lives in a rented flat and has no car.
In fact, I've been doing quite well without her stimulating my economy.

I met many people like her. Unfortunately.


----------



## almostfreebird

I wonder what kind of environment she was raised in. I can't find the right word to describe a person like her. You should have bitch slapped her.


----------



## Lusitania

There are more like her where she came from. I visited her country and I got this attitude more than once. It has to do on how you perceive other cultures. Other colleagues of mine said they've also experienced this humanitarian syndrom.


----------



## übermönch

Humanitarian syndrome?  heh, I like the word. I know several people severely struck by it. Sending chocolate and _worn _socks to hungry Namibian children or choosing one from a photo to patronate with the whole class and then stomp proudly around as the great messiah *barf* it made me sick. There was one girl who regulary visited our patronned Namibian kid and made photos with her giving him some girly selfmade presents. And the onetime tickets alone costed more than we donated during all the time! I guess it's fun to play the gratious nobleman, 't must boost the self-esteem.


Etcetera said:


> How would you react if *an immigran*t grabbed your hand and started to ask something...


*An immigrant*?  Oh my god! if i wouldn't fall unconcious instantly I'd most probably put him in place by telling him that's he's actually a *dirty immigrant *and that he should know his dirty immigrant slave's place  *Immigrants*! *EEK*! ** How dares this unworthy swine to _ask something_?  !Quod est licet *Giove*, non est licet *Bove*! **


> in rather bad Russian, and in a very impolite way (using ты, etc)?


You don't like when do not know all the nuances of this marvellous language? Oh, Etcetera, I can only imagine the disgust you got to overcome to conversate with all the Russian-learners on this forum. 
Seriously, not knowing a language well enough, is not a sign of being inpolite, neither is it a reason to respond inpolitely. Not everyone is gifted in linguistics - would it help your knowledge of Finnish in any way if every Finn you met would, to say politely, dismiss you, not liking your inperfect unnative way of speaking?


> If people see that someone is friendly to them, they will be friendly to him or her, in their turn.


Yes, but what's the connection to racism? Being unfriendly is a personal trait.


> But many, many immigrants haven't received good education


Well? Many, many different people of all kinds have not received good education - it's the way of_ "lowlife scum"/"the people"_, immigrant or not. That doesn't make them any worse. 


> , *they *know very little about how to behave in the society,


I think you're generalising, no?  


> and *they *know very little about what rules of behaviour are accepted in Russia.


*We *however, *we do *perfectly know the Russian way of life and code of honour, eh? Unlike *them*. Those barbarians. EEK! 
What rules of behaviour unknown to _"them"_were you refering to?


In any way, it isn't meant to be insulting. Best wishes; Have a nice day!


----------



## Etcetera

I'm afraid you didn't understand me. I'm not going to answer all your remarks, you can find answers to them in my initial post. But I'll answer this one.



> You don't like when do not know all the nuances of this marvellous language? Oh, Etcetera, I can only imagine the disgust you got to overcome to conversate with all the Russian-learners on this forum.
> Seriously, not knowing a language well enough, is not a sign of being inpolite, neither is it a reason to respond inpolitely. Not everyone is gifted in linguistics - would it help your knowledge of Finnish in any way if every Finn you met would, to say politely, dismiss you, not liking your inperfect unnative way of speaking?


I talk to learners of Russian very often, not only here, but at the University as well. Don't you see any difference between a learner who is polite, nice and friendly, and an immigrant who doesn't even _want _to make a good impression? That was what I was talking about. Bad knowledge of Russian can be easily forgiven if the person is polite. But if the person is not...
Mind you, I disapprove of anyone grabbing my hand and behaving impolitely, be it an immigrant or a native Russian.


----------



## maxiogee

almostfreebird said:


> You should have bitch slapped her.


What a disgusting expression - whatever meaning one applies to it!  


The woman was obviously deluded, and is more than likely just a product of her educational system and her parents' childrearing skills, or lack thereof. It can be difficult to host a foreign person in your own home. However, if the expectations of both parties are explored fully at the outset, and if both parties act with a modicum of tact and on the understanding that there are going to be culture clashes, then all can go well. We had a great experience in this regard not too long ago.


----------



## übermönch

Etcetera said:


> I talk to learners of Russian very often, not only here, but at the University as well. Don't you see any difference between a learner who is polite, nice and friendly, and an immigrant who doesn't even _want _to make a good impression?


You mean, you WOULD understand/be more torelable if it *wasn't an immigrant*? You do differencate between a _"polite learner"_and an _"inpolite immigrant"_, not just between some randompolite/inpolite people*... *don't know if I made myself clearly enough - It's like asking if you see a difference between a _"stingy snobbish_ _Jew"_ and a _"charming good-natured aryan"._ 


> That was what I was talking about. Bad knowledge of Russian can be easily forgiven if the person is polite. But if the person is not...
> Mind you, I disapprove of anyone grabbing my hand and behaving impolitely, be it an immigrant or a native Russian.


That's comprehensible, so why d'you mention the "immigrants" of all potential grabbers separately? Why not have an inpolite aforementionned learner?


----------



## Outsider

Etcetera said:


> Mind you, I disapprove of anyone grabbing my hand and behaving impolitely, be it an immigrant or a native Russian.


Could the hand-grabbing have been interpreted differently by the two of you? Perhaps people are more "touchy-feely" than what you're used to in the culture where he came from.


----------



## übermönch

Outsider said:


> Could the hand-grabbing have been interpreted differently by the two of you? Perhaps people are more "touchy-feely" than what you're used to in the culture where he came from.


Indeed, we, over here, actually greet this  way


----------



## karuna

The Russians are no more or less racist than any other nation. It is rare to meet black people in Russia thus they often become an object of curiousity. Some may mistake the heightened intrest as hostility. I too wouldn't like people on the street looking at me with big eyes but actually it doesn't represent any danger. 

There is another aspect in Russia that I could characterize as state racism. The police often stops any foreign looking person or those who speak with an accent and demands bribes from them. The whole system is extremely corrupt. 

My experience is that they stop you near the train station and even though your passport, visa, etc. are in complete order they anyway threaten to detain you for 3 hours which they are allowed to do by law. Since your international train is leaving soon you very easily agree to pay your extortion money so that you don't miss your train. It has happened to me several times when travelling in Russia and Ukraine that I even make sure to always carry extra $20 with me. 

Georgians who are now being deported from Russia probably had no visas but other illegal immigrants, let's say, from Kazahstan or Ukraine can still easily pay off the police. It is politically motivated and has little connection with your skin color or nationality. Remeber that terrible incident when two planes were blown up? The terrorists paid measly $20 to be allowed on plane without proper identification or bagage check. At the end the real victims are Russians themselves from the hands of their own government.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

Oh, this is definitely "my" thread, since I am a demographer working on the issue of the pathological spread of violence in Russia.
There is a wide misperception of Russia in the world, esp. on this account. People read or hear about the racist attacks in the media and assume that the country is incredibly racist. But the truth is: Russia is an extremely pathologically violent in general. If you take the general statistic, you find out that the amount of crimes against people of other races as a percentage of all crimes is probably even lower than in many Western countries. It is just that the total number of crimes is mind-boggling. Do not forget that Russia is the second most-murderous country in the world (that is, leaving Chechnya out), among the first 5 of the most "raping" countries, and tops the list in various other types of crimes, like assault, trafficking in humans, domestic abuse. It is the world champion in the number of women murdered by their partners and fathers (yes, far ahead of Pakistan), in the number of abortions (almost 5 mil/year), among the leaders on the list when it comes to children murdered, maimed by their parents. It also has an enormous number of street children and children involved in prostitution. You surely do not think it is all done peacefully! And I have just come back from Chechnya with a delegation collecting the evidence of torture and war crimes which far surpass in their brutality the records of the WWII. But we generally leave Chechnya out - it`s impossible and too horrifying to try to evaluate the real scale of violence there. 
So if you look at the general state of things, it becomes clear that the point here is the society absolutely permeated by violence which turns against anybody and in some respects you can say they are less racist than anybody since everybody gets victimized.


----------



## .   1

I am of the opinion that any person who believes that a particular country is more racist than another country is revealing a little about their own perceptions of the differences between races and this causes me to view that viewer through slanted eyes.

.,,


----------



## Setwale_Charm

. said:


> I am of the opinion that any person who believes that a particular country is more racist than another country is revealing a little about their own perceptions of the differences between races and this causes me to view that viewer through slanted eyes.
> 
> .,,


 
 That`s a bit surprising (or naive?)! You surely cannot deny that the spread of racism is not all that difficult to evaluate and that differes greatly from country to country.


----------



## .   1

Setwale_Charm said:


> That`s a bit surprising (or naive?)! You surely cannot deny that the spread of racism is not all that difficult to evaluate and that differes greatly from country to country.


I have been stating from the outset that I do not believe that any country is more or less racist than any other country.  I do not believe that a person from any country is likely to be more or less racist than a person from another country and I have yet to see any post that convinces me that I am wrong.
Americans are portrayed as being more arrogant than Canadians but this is not my experience after meeting many people from both countries.
English people are supposed to be more reserved than New Zealanders but experience upon meeting both nationalities in large numbers blows that theory away.
Germans are supposed to be lacking in humour as compared to French but this is again destroyed after meeting Germans and French.
There is a joke about heaven and hell comparing nationalities but the joke is different depending upon which nationality the comedian wishes to insult.
No country is more racist than another country.

.,,


----------



## Setwale_Charm

. said:


> I have been stating from the outset that I do not believe that any country is more or less racist than any other country. I do not believe that a person from any country is likely to be more or less racist than a person from another country and I have yet to see any post that convinces me that I am wrong.
> Americans are portrayed as being more arrogant than Canadians but this is not my experience after meeting many people from both countries.
> English people are supposed to be more reserved than New Zealanders but experience upon meeting both nationalities in large numbers blows that theory away.
> Germans are supposed to be lacking in humour as compared to French but this is again destroyed after meeting Germans and French.
> There is a joke about heaven and hell comparing nationalities but the joke is different depending upon which nationality the comedian wishes to insult.
> No country is more racist than another country.
> 
> .,,


 
 This is disputable. You might say that when you are talking about humour but the fact is there are more violence-ridden countries and those less so. You stand a greater chance of coming across a violent person in one country than in another. And the state of brutality and psychological health can be different at times. Those differ even betwen the regions.


----------



## cuchuflete

I've lived in various regions of a single large country.  Here is what I have observed.  In the region that is most racially homogeneous, and minority members are rarely seen, there is no racism visible.  My personal speculation is that the majority feels no threat from a tiny minority to its power, or cultural habits.  Minority members just wouldn't make very good scapegoats for the issues or problems of the region.  

In another region, there was a very large minority population, and there was overt friction between the majority and minority, with racism evident on both sides.  Both competed for jobs, political influence, wealth.  

In a third region, there were countless minorities, including those often classified as racial.  The largest group, racially, did not constitute an arithmetic majority.   All the many ethnic and racial groups co-existed with only very rare displays of racism.

The educational levels and intelligence levels were probably equivalent in all three regions, at least as far as most people were concerned.  The third region--the very mixed one--had more people with higher levels of formal education, as it included many large cities.  However, the bulk of the populace in all three regions was similar in education.

I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from these observations, but I suspect they might find parallels on national levels.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

What the Russian (and not only) authorites and population fail to realise is that one has to start tackling the problem of general and universal violence, aggressiveness and perverted norms. Whereas they only give attention to the cases of attacks against persons of other races. I do not in the least wish to underestimate the graveness of those crimes but they only get the publicity because of political correctness. Nobody cares for the above-mentioned categories of victims. But as long as the general atmosphere and norms of life are pervaded by violence and abuse, it will affect everybody.


----------



## gaer

. said:


> I would say that this is absolutely correct.
> I can not believe that any culture is more or less racist than any other culture.


In 1955, there were colored and white drinking fountains where I live, in South Florida

The central east west dividing line in Fort Lauderdale separate whites and blacks.

Blacks at the time were called Negroes or "niggers".

"Jim Crow" was alive and well here. In high school, there were no blacks in my school. Our schools were completely segregated.

I lived through it. In the 1960s blacks were arrested for not "sitting the back seats of busses" in certain cities in the South. It was no "picnic" in the North either.

Given the incredible racisim still in effect in the US just a few decades ago, it is miracle that things are so much better now. And they are much better.

Still, I hardly think that the same kind of descrimination still going on here was anywhere near as extreme in all other countries, so I think your statement is very misleading.

However, I don't believe that information we get about racism in other countries is balanced. There are always people who are white-washing problems, claiming that they barely exist, while others exaggerate them to a ridiculous degree.

When it comes to racisism in Russia, I would prefer to get information from people I trust in Russia, not from the media.


----------



## .   1

Setwale_Charm said:


> This is disputable. You might say that when you are talking about humour but the fact is there are more violence-ridden countries and those less so. You stand a greater chance of coming across a violent person in one country than in another. And the state of brutality and psychological health can be different at times. Those differ even betwen the regions.


This has been pointed out by others but this is not racism.

Which person wishes to put up their hand and say that their country is more racist than another country?

.,,


----------



## Setwale_Charm

. said:


> This has been pointed out by others but this is not racism.
> 
> Which person wishes to put up their hand and say that their country is more racist than another country?
> 
> .,,


 
 But that also applies to the attitudes twds people of different colour. Come, even the UN conducts annual surveys to find out in which countries racist attitudes are more widespread. Or are we talking about different things, after all?


----------



## .   1

Setwale_Charm said:


> But that also applies to the attitudes twds people of different colour. Come, even the UN conducts annual surveys to find out in which countries racist attitudes are more widespread. Or are we talking about different things, after all?


I am simply saying that homo sapiens are all the same.  No particular society is more racist than another society.

.,,


----------



## Setwale_Charm

Here I disagree. You are talking about inherent abilities - yes. But the fact that some societies are more xenophobic than others - there is no denying that. And, unfortunately, humans are social animals and going against the norms of the crowd of your surrounding. of those you are brought up with - is very very difficult. Only very few are capable of that. That`s why you cannot for example expect the same from the Chechen population as from Australian population when you try to resolve the conflict, even if you still base your vision upon the UDHR which is the same for all humans. Their norms and perceptions are different and one has to count with that. That`s the eternal trouble.


----------



## Etcetera

übermönch said:


> You mean, you WOULD understand/be more torelable if it *wasn't an immigrant*? You do differencate between a _"polite learner"_and an _"inpolite immigrant"_, not just between some randompolite/inpolite people*... *don't know if I made myself clearly enough - It's like asking if you see a difference between a _"stingy snobbish_ _Jew"_ and a _"charming good-natured aryan".[/_QUOTE]
> I would not. The sad truth is that natives usually don't behave in such a way. Grabbing one's hand, talking to a stranger in an informal way - it isn't accepted in Russian society.
> Imagine that you come to a friend's place. Would you behave as if you were at home, or would you stick to some rules of how to behave? It is the same with tourists, immigrants, and so on.
> I must add that I know a lot of _polite _immigrants. Some of my friends are originally from Georgia. One of my friends at the University is a refugee from Abkhazia. So I *know* what I am talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's comprehensible, so why d'you mention the "immigrants" of all potential grabbers separately? Why not have an inpolite aforementionned learner?
> 
> 
> 
> Because I've never met an inpolite learner.
Click to expand...


----------



## Outsider

. said:


> I am simply saying that homo sapiens are all the same.  No particular society is more racist than another society.


I agree with Setwale. We are all the same genetically, in an average sense, but we are not just genes. Society shapes us as well. You don't have to believe in races to see that this makes sense.


----------



## übermönch

@Etcetera
"Grabbing one's hand, talking to a stranger in an informal way - it isn't accepted in Russian society."
Who defines what's accepted in "Russian soceity" and what's not? Isn't it each one's own choice, as long as it's legal? I mean you can be a hippy, a punk, a chauvinist, you can be obsessed with Latin America, the Far East, Enlightment, Freud, Epikur, Krishnaism and whatnot and behave according to your Weltbild. Your personality may very well be related to where you grew up - a guy hailing cut-off village on Novaya Zemlya maybe will have different minor influences as one from Akadem-Gorodok, Helsinki, Moscow or Bakou - that's not the only integer, there's education, wisdom, age, social niveau etc. etc. - but obtaining the status of _an immigrant_ in this soceity suddenly makes one doing specific things like grabbing hands? How's that possible? 

"I must add that I know a lot of _polite _immigrants."
well, maybe you *even* know an inpolite non-immigrant?  

"Because I've never met an inpolite learner. "
Well, what does it change?  It might very well be that you never got offended by an married native american widow, a pink-haired transvestite or a retired electritian, it, however, doesn't make them less likely to offend people. Same works the other way round. Being an immigrant is a minor bureaucratic trait hardly related to behaviour.


------------------------------------------------









On topic, there is an actually kind-of-actual topic on Russian media about the sudden deportations of Georgians living in Russia in regard on the mini-cold-war between Russia and Georgia. Maybe related to the thread.  In Moscow schools had to give lists of pupils with Georgian surnames for that illegal migrants from Georgia were easier to find and that kind-of lead to a media uproar, as loud as independant madia could roar. There also was a demonstration in moscow where they (Russians) appeared with yellow magin-davids with "Georgian" written on them attached to the clothing.

English
http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/386558
Russian>
http://www.kommersant.ru/k-vlast/get_page.asp?DocID=711286
http://www.kommersant.ru/k-vlast/get_page.asp?DocID=711266


----------



## karuna

übermönch said:


> Russian>
> http://www.kommersant.ru/k-vlast/get_page.asp?DocID=711266



Wow, that was impressive. If Saakashvili is Gue Chevera just for wanting to join NATO then our president must be the female form of Hitler


----------



## Etcetera

übermönch said:


> Who defines what's accepted in "Russian soceity" and what's not? Isn't it each one's own choice, as long as it's legal?


Dear me. There are some commonly accepted rules of behaviour which children are taught from the first years of their lives. E.g., you shouldn't talk to adults and strangers using ты instead of вы. There is a code of behaviour to which people should stick, and they more or less stick to it. 



> In Moscow schools had to give lists of pupils with Georgian surnames for that illegal migrants from Georgia were easier to find and that kind-of lead to a media uproar, as loud as independant madia could roar.


Dear me once again. 
*Illegal *migration is illegal migration. No country in the world approves of it. Why should Russia welcome illegal migrants?!


----------



## Lusitania

Etcetera said:


> *Illegal *migration is illegal migration. No country in the world approves of it. Why should Russia welcome illegal migrants?!


 
People shoudn't be labelled as illegal as merchandise, but irregular in their status. That's for me the diference of trafficking and smuggling. 
People should be able to live in the country where they feel more confortable. There has been migration flows since the begining of times. Why not now?


----------



## übermönch

Etcetera said:


> Dear me. There are some commonly accepted rules of behaviour which children are taught from the first years of their lives. E.g., you shouldn't talk to adults and strangers using ты instead of вы. There is a code of behaviour to which people should stick, and they more or less stick to it.


Those commonly accepted rules are accepted by the ones who follow them, nobody's oblidged to and it is not bound to any place/country. Different people may have different values, besides, are you still sure that you've never seen an English learner who would, for example confuse ты and вы?



> Dear me once again.
> *Illegal *migration is illegal migration. No country in the world approves of it. Why should Russia welcome illegal migrants?!


It shouldn't. But, even they, illegal immigrants, should be treated equally. Currently there's a campaign on people with Georgian names because of tension with Georgia - Uzbeks and Moldavians may stay, they will even become naturalized quite soon. - that is, what racism is all about. 



Lusitania said:


> People shoudn't be labelled as illegal as merchandise, but irregular in their status. That's for me the di*f*ference of trafficking and smuggling.
> People should be able to live in the country where they feel more confortable. There has been migration flows since the begining of times. Why not now?


agreed. People are not things; forced deportation never changes, no matter by what it's currently excused. Quite many 'illegals' in European countries have found a new home there and nevertheless are forced to leave. 




-------------------------------------
*Огонёк:* День большой зачистки
*BBC:* Russia turns screw on Georgians
*BBC:* Georgia chides Russia 'cleansing'

Police raids on Georgian casinos, cafés, restaurants and a cultural centre in Moscow. About 400 illegals flown on cargo planes to Georgia. According to the Georgian governmental news agency rustavi 2, there also was a raid on a Georgian orthodox church during sunday service.


----------



## Lusitania

Portugal has always been a (e)migrants country as Russia also is nowadays and now we're an (im)migrants country and we should be coherent.
People won't stay in a country if there aren't opportunities, they will move. Also the idea of criminality is wrong and it's in the same proportion as nationals. 
I see migrants as a great opportunity for every country and I like living in lisbon because of its diversity in general. It's very strange to me to be in places where people all look the same.


----------



## Etcetera

übermönch said:


> Those commonly accepted rules are accepted by the ones who follow them, nobody's oblidged to and it is not bound to any place/country.


So, everyone has the right to behave as they like? That's what you want to say?



> It shouldn't. But, even they, illegal immigrants, should be treated equally. Currently there's a campaign on people with Georgian names because of tension with Georgia - Uzbeks and Moldavians may stay, they will even become naturalized quite soon. - that is, what racism is all about.


I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that it is something rather natural for every country - if its relationships with some other country are getting worse, there's usually some tension in the relation to the natives of this country. 



> People are not things; forced deportation never changes, no matter by what it's currently excused. Quite many 'illegals' in European countries have found a new home there and nevertheless are forced to leave.


Why can't they make their staying in their new home country legal? Yes, it's rather tricky, but if one wants to do something, one does it. Violation of laws should be punished. 

Anyway, I think that this discussion is absolutely pointless. We stand on too different positions.


----------



## übermönch

Etcetera said:


> So, everyone has the right to behave as they like? That's what you want to say?


No, no, no, that's not the point. What I'm saying thee all the time is, that being an immigrant or whatnot is not related to behaving this way or another and, specificially, speaking the way *thou*'dst like someone to. Thou, by the way, art not bound _to_ _you _everyone. It is thy very own choice. The rules of the forum maybe are pinned somewhere, a liberal country, in contrary, is by no way similar to some closed soceity. 


> I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that it is something rather natural for every country - if its relationships with some other country are getting worse, there's usually some tension in the relation to the natives of this country.


Well, if thou sayest it, bring an example. Usually there are laws, which, for example, make unattested migrants from Cuba to USA completely legal, in contrary to those from Mexico. In the Russian case, f.e. Uzbek and Georgian illegals are de jura the same, *they both are illegal*, de facto they are treatened differently, (because, though the guy in Uzbekistan may very well have slaughtered this or that uprising, he still has good relations to the Kremlin) the main point therein is, that, as they all were illegal and thus not registered anywhere, the police had to fall back to completely irrelevant means, such as asking for lists of pupils with Georgian names from Muscowite schools or assaulting a Georgian orthodox church during service, *for to* treat them differently. They even got transported by cargo planes. I highly doubt any illegal Uzbeki would get such service.




> Why can't they make their staying in their new home country legal? Yes, it's rather tricky, but if one wants to do something, one does it. Violation of laws should be punished.


Well, laws may also very well be wrong and inhumane. Think f.e. of Appartheid, Nazi Germany or _Europe prior to late 60s_; *THOU ART THERE TO CHANGE THEM!* It is wrong to *throw *some perfect citizen *out *from his *own righteously earned home* - for having entered the country illegaly some 15 years ago. From what I've heared there's a law being pushed which would legalize illegals who lived enough in Russia and know the language, which is right, though the Georgians are not going to profit from it any longer. It may very well be right not to let people in, but to ban people who settled down_ is wrong._ 


> Anyway, I think that this discussion is absolutely pointless. We stand on too different positions.


Well, I'm just trying to let you peek from a little different angle, you know?


----------



## Etcetera

übermönch said:


> Well, I'm just trying to let you peek from a little different angle, you know?


OK, I understand you.  Yes, we're looking at the situation from, maybe, too different angles. 



> From what I've heared there's a law being pushed which would legalize illegals who lived enough in Russia and know the language, which is right, though the Georgians are not going to profit from it any longer. It may very well be right not to let people in, but to ban people who settled down_ is wrong._


I remember that in 2001 (that is, when I was applying for my first Russian passport and had to read quite a lot of related legal documents), any person who was living in Russia at the time when the country became independent (that is, in August 1991), got the Russian citizenship automatically. Thus, my father, who moved to St. Petersburg from Odessa, Ukraine, around 1980, received his Russian passport without any problems. No doubt, it is right that a person who has been living here for many years, knows the language, works somewhere, should be granted the Russian citizenship. 
And if we're talking about Georgians... I've already mentioned my friend who's a Georgian and has Georgian first name and last name. Well, she's living in Moscow, and no one's forcing she and her family to go back to Georgia.


----------



## beakman

Setwale_Charm said:


> There is a wide misperception of Russia in the world, esp. on this account. People read or hear about the racist attacks in the media and assume that the country is incredibly racist. But the truth is: Russia is an extremely pathologically violent in general. If you take the general statistic, you find out that the amount of crimes against people of other races as a percentage of all crimes is probably even lower than in many Western countries. It is just that the total number of crimes is mind-boggling. Do not forget that Russia is the second most-murderous country in the world (that is, leaving Chechnya out), among the first 5 of the most "raping" countries, and tops the list in various other types of crimes, like assault, trafficking in humans, domestic abuse. It is the world champion in the number of women murdered by their partners and fathers (yes, far ahead of Pakistan), in the number of abortions (almost 5 mil/year), among the leaders on the list when it comes to children murdered, maimed by their parents. It also has an enormous number of street children and children involved in prostitution. You surely do not think it is all done peacefully! And I have just come back from Chechnya with a delegation collecting the evidence of torture and war crimes which far surpass in their brutality the records of the WWII. But we generally leave Chechnya out - it`s impossible and too horrifying to try to evaluate the real scale of violence there.
> So if you look at the general state of things, it becomes clear that the point here is the society absolutely permeated by violence which turns against anybody and in some respects you can say they are less racist than anybody since everybody gets victimized.[/quote]
> 
> I completely agree with you, Setwale Charm. Russia is extremely violent in general. Throughout of years of social unjustice and state abuse the whole Russian society got degenerated. Nothing surprising for me. (My mother -who lives in Russia- is a criminal lawyer, so she sees it and has to "deal" with it every day... all of you've mentioned...
> 
> What regards how we treat foreigners..., during 27 years I'd lived in Russia (up to 1996), I was convinced that any foreigner, whatever was his nationality or ethnic characteristics, was safer and better treated by authorities and police than any ordinary Russian in his own "motherland". At least, that was our perseption then.
> 
> There were many students from all over the African Continent, Asia and Latin America at my university. Among students, I mean Russian and foreign, there were no problems, moreover, many of foreign students had Russian friends, got married Russian girls,etc...But students, you know, is other breed, more open-minded, cosmopolitan, etc...(though, from every rule there's some exceptions...)
> 
> So, when I was far from my mother's home during my university years, sharing room with other students at poor students dorm, we used to joke that any Russian at home is less welcomed than any foreigner (we were treated "worse than street dogs", as it is said in Russia).
> 
> Corruption, bureaucracy, bribes, unfriendly looking and speaking people in the streets (very unpolite towards other co-citizens in many ocasions), unpleasant government employees (espesially unpleasant while speaking to normal people of the same nationality), alcoholism and violence at homes (sometimes with participation of each member of the family, even children), ...
> 
> ...arrogant and stupid residents of big cities with there permanent residence stamps in their passports who look down upon other person (he or she) because of his/ her "limited" residence stamp in his/ hers (or lack of this stamp at all), etc.- some examples of Special features of life in Russia. (Though, we, Russians, like more highlighting the "greatness" of our "National Character"...the same song about how we are proud of being Russian/ that "only Russians can understand Russia and life"/ how well educated and courteous we are , and stupidities... (Greatness for me is equal to abysmal: human nature/ soul are abysmal: it means that it goes from the the highest displays of human being to the lowest impulses of it or vice versa, and you never know what it will show next time).


----------



## beakman

Etcetera said:


> I remember that in 2001 (that is, when I was applying for my first Russian passport and had to read quite a lot of related legal documents), any person who was living in Russia at the time when the country became independent (that is, in August 1991), got the Russian citizenship automatically. Thus, my father, who moved to St. Petersburg from Odessa, Ukraine, around 1980, received his Russian passport without any problems. No doubt, it is right that a person who has been living here for many years, knows the language, works somewhere, should be granted the Russian citizenship.


 
What I remember is that in 80s there were soviet passports, not Russian. What you mean is different to Russian citizenship, you father then obtained his residence -"прописка"- for living in St. Petersburg (probably, thanks for your mother/ other relative who included him in hers/his apartment deeds -it was and is still a general requirement for obtaining St. Petersburg/ other cities' residence...with other words, you may be Russian but you still need to have permission for residence, being Russian isn't sufficient in Russia ), so he couldn't obtain Russian passport, nor Russian citizenship at that time because we were soviet citizens then.

You say that in 1991 it was easy to obtain Russian citizenship for anyone who was living there, maybe. But you forgot to mention those Russians who weren't living in the territory of the Russian Federation at that time. What happened to them? Oh, nothing bad, really! Russian authorities decided to dispence with them -we are not responsable for those who are absent! So, many people had to get other nationalities, many families became split by borders, many - who then ran away from conflict regions and mooved back to Russia -their motherland, the land of their fathers, are still without Russian passport or residence and live without any rights.


----------



## Etcetera

As for my father, he obtained his permission for residence when he became a student of Medical Military Academy. It was only later that he married my Mum.



beakman said:


> You say that in 1991 it was easy to obtain Russian citizenship for anyone who was living there, maybe. But you forgot to mention those Russians who weren't living in the territory of the Russian Federation at that time. What happened to them? Oh, nothing bad, really! Russian authorities decided to dispence with them -we are not responsable for those who are absent! So, many people had to get other nationalities, many families became split by borders, many - who then ran away from conflict regions and mooved back to Russia -their motherland, the land of their fathers, are still without Russian passport or residence and live without any rights.


But click here.  Getting Russian citizenship may be really difficult, but then, getting citizenship isn't easy in any country. Honestly, the Russian legislation isn't more unfair than any other country's legislation.


----------



## beakman

Etcetera said:


> As for my father, he obtained his permission for residence when he became a student of Medical Military Academy. It was only later that he married my Mum..


 
I know very well what it is (I mean this limited permission for residence), because I also had such a "permission" when I studied at Pedagogical University (Институт имени Герцена at those times) from 1987 till 1991. I "came" from Bielorrusia (because it was my "last stop" before entering the university - so happened that it was Bielorrussia where I finished my secondary school because of my father's place of job), though for 16 years I'd lived in Russia, not mentioning that my place of birth is Russian Federation, to precise it is Vyborg (Выборг)- close to yours (if you're from St. Petersburg), isn't it!

What am I getting at? That I myself know what discrimination means, because I remember how I was discriminated by Russian authorities and stupid Russian laws (we were anable to get any job, without a permanent permission and had all doors closed ,all privileges were only for "natives") and, frankly, the treatment towards people like me (I mean people from far-off regions/ not so far-off regions) on behalf of "natives" (коренные Ленинградцы) wasn't good -I remember the word "лимитчик" (thanks, only it was only at verbal level, but you know: "words can also do harm").
Isn't it unfair?

Moreover, I haven't seen so much arrogance, sometimes despise and in general wicked attitude towards people from other places (Russian or not) as I experienced it during those 4 years in my beloved city. (In Spain, for instance, you can be Spanish (doesn't matter from what part of it) or foreigner, black or white, tall or short, doesn't matter your religion or your education , doesn't matter if you speak well Spanish/ can't pronounce it well/ can't speak it, if you "tutea"/ habla en Usted (use "ты"-form/ "вы"-form) (and their society also have their codes!)... Spanish people (in general) are more friendly and not so cynical/ disrespectful towards others as Russian can be (when they want!) -it's no need to remind you a large handful of disgusting disrespectful expressions which are in use among Russians- thanks not all foreigner can understand them, in general, Spaniards treat you whithout preconceived ideas; (at least I haven' seen discriminative language in many occasions (if there was any) in 9 years I've lived here; and if you've got a permission for residence (it's always limited, that is, it is for some period of time) it's almost the same from job viewpoint who are you Spanish (and doesn't matter from what part of the country) or not Spanish, because you have the same opportunities. 

Why, tell me, Russia is still so reactionary? 

My answer is, because of injustice, corruption, perverted laws and norms and many other bad things which are maybe deeply-rooted from times of our "glorious societ state".



Etcetera said:


> Getting Russian citizenship may be really difficult, but then, getting citizenship isn't easy in any country..


I don't speak about obtaining Russian citizenship, thank you for the link.
I speak about what to do / how to live and gain living for those who overnight became social outcast (of Russian race), people without motherland, people who overnight found themselves "foreigners" (because of racial discrimintation, wars, etc.) in the places where they used to live and then, the same in the place considered their fathers' land. How they can get on with their lives whithout damned permissions, without homes, money, jobs, respect..? Russia isn't a sample of the state where human rights are defended and fostered at all levels. 



Etcetera said:


> Honestly, the Russian legislation isn't more unfair than any other country's legislation.


Russian legislation isn't more unfair than other countries' legislation, you are right... Russian society is.


----------



## Etcetera

Oh, I see now, Beakman. You know, speaking from someone's experience can be sometimes really dangerous, because no experience can be universal. 
For instance, I have had a large experience in dealing with the Russian medicine. Many people were and are having such experience. But what I've noticed a long time ago is that our experiences aren't the same. It seems that, in general, I was lucky to meet more of competent and friendly doctors. It was a matter of luck...
But it's quite another story. What I can tell you for sure is that, however strange it may seem at first sight, nowadays the attitude towards people from other regions has definitely changed. When I live in Moscow, I don't notice any arrogance or despise towards me, although I still can't speak Moscow dialect - and, frankly speaking, have no desire at all to learn to speak it.


----------



## beakman

Etcetera said:


> however strange it may seem at first sight, nowadays the attitude towards people from other regions has definitely changed.


Your words give me hope! If it's so, then cursing people and raged faces fell behind. What a relief!
Best regards!


----------



## Etcetera

I am glad to hear it.


----------

