# słucham panią!/ słucham pana



## bjoleniacz

Hi,

I am in chapter 1 of "Teach yourself Polish" and I see two phrases.

1.  Słucham pana (to a man)
2.  Słucham panią  (to a woman)

I am confused as to why pana for a man is in the accusative (biernik) case and panią is in the instrumental (narzędnik) case?  Why isn't it
*Słucham panię
?

Thanks!


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## Thomas1

They are both in the accusative. _Kogo widzę? Pana Nowaka i Panią Kowalską. _The accusative and instrumental cases of the noun "pani" happen to have the same forms. "Panię" isn't correct.

 In the resource sticky, there's a link to a Polish-English dictionary with inflections: http://polish.slavic.pitt.edu/polish/


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## bjoleniacz

Thank you!


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## Ben Jamin

Thomas1 said:


> They are both in the accusative. _Kogo widzę? Pana Nowaka i Panią Kowalską. _The accusative and instrumental cases of the noun "pani" happen to have the same forms. "Panię" isn't correct.
> 
> In the resource sticky, there's a link to a Polish-English dictionary with inflections: http://polish.slavic.pitt.edu/polish/


The accusative form "panię" was correct in old Polish, certainly until year 1600, maybe later.
The genitive form was at that time "paniej"


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## Ben Jamin

There is, however, one important thing to remember:
While addressing formally a woman you don't know personally the form "proszę pani" is used. It corresponds roughly to English "Madam", but without being deferent - it's used by women with equal status addressing each other. It is actually more like French "Madame".
It is difficult to say what declension case "pani" in this expression is. It can be the genitive, but this has no logical explanation. It can also be the vocative. The explanation could then be that the original expression was "proszę, Pani" (I beg, my Lady).

You can also hear people saying "słucham pani", but this is considered incorrect by the prescriptive grammar.
This form is probably a confusion between accusative and genitive, which are identical for the masculine gender personal.
For example "słucham pana" can be interpreted by some people as the genitive.


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## marco_2

Ben Jamin said:


> There is, however, one important thing to remember:
> While addressing formally a woman you don't know personally the form "proszę pani" is used. It corresponds roughly to English "Madam", but without being deferent - it's used by women with equal status addressing each other. It is actually more like French "Madame".
> It is difficult to say what declension case "pani" in this expression is. It can be the genitive, but this has no logical explanation. It can also be the vocative.



But it is by no means genitive: _proszę mamy, proszę taty _("Proszę słonia" - a popular book for children by L.J.Kern) - of course nowadays we rarely address our parents this way, but our ancestors used to. The same is in _proszę pana / pani_, _proszę księdza / siostry _etc.


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## Ben Jamin

marco_2 said:


> But it is by no means genitive: _proszę mamy, proszę taty _("Proszę słonia" - a popular book for children by L.J.Kern) - of course nowadays we rarely address our parents this way, but our ancestors used to. The same is in _proszę pana / pani_, _proszę księdza / siostry _etc.


What case is this then?


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## marco_2

Genitive (dopełniacz) - you can see it in feminine nouns: _proszę siostry, proszę koleżanki _etc. - here the genitive case doesn't have the same form as accusative (biernik), which is _siostrę, koleżankę _respectively.


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## Ben Jamin

marco_2 said:


> Genitive (dopełniacz) - you can see it in feminine nouns: _proszę siostry, proszę koleżanki _etc. - here the genitive case doesn't have the same form as accusative (biernik), which is _siostrę, koleżankę _respectively.


Now I am confused. You wrote  in #6 "But it is by no means genitive: _proszę mamy, proszę taty ... "_
Now you write: "Genitive (dopełniacz) - you can see it in feminine nouns: _proszę siostry, proszę koleżanki _etc."

Genitive of feminine nouns is not equal to accusative, there is no controversy about it, but it is equal in masculine animate gender, and that's why Poles are confused regarding the use of accusative or genitive with feminine gender.
"Proszę siostry" is a contamination (should I say "contagion"?) of genitive use in expressions that were originally used with accusative.


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## Agitato

Ben Jamin said:


> Now I am confused. You wrote  in #6 "But it is by no means genitive: _proszę mamy, proszę taty ... "_
> Now you write: "Genitive (dopełniacz) - you can see it in feminine nouns: _proszę siostry, proszę koleżanki _etc."



If I can chime in...

I think there'a a simple explanation: instead of _by no means_ it should have been _no doubt.
_
This is definitely the genitive case.


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## Thomas1

By all means.


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## marco_2

OK, you got me .... forget #6, I wanted to write "by all means", but it was 12:27 AM... But it is genitive, there aren't any exceptions in this rule _(Ależ proszę siostry / towarzyszki / koleżanki_ ..., _tak się nie godzi). _The only noun which causes problems for some our compatriots is _pani _(you can hear  _Proszę panią , która godzina? _at times), though I noticed that in my school students try to be correct - I have eavesdropped on them lately and nobody said _proszę panią. _


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## Agitato

marco_2 said:


> But it is genitive, there aren't any exceptions in this rule _(Ależ proszę siostry / towarzyszki / koleżanki_ ..., _tak się nie godzi). _The only noun which causes problems for some our compatriots is _pani _(you can hear  _Proszę panią , która godzina? _at times), though I noticed that in my school students try to be correct - I have eavesdropped on them lately and nobody said _proszę panią. _



I think the thing is (unfortunately) a little bit more complicated. The phrases _proszę pani_, _proszę siostry_ (to a nurse or a nun), _proszę Wysokiego Sądu_ are used only as so called addressative forms. They are used to begin a conversation, to attract sb's attention etc.

If you *really* want *to* *ask* *sb* for something (or to do sth) you have to use proszę + the accusative case. For examlple: _*Proszę panią* o radę_, _*proszę siostrę* o pomoc_, _*proszę  Wysoki Sąd* o łaskę._


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## marco_2

Agitato said:


> I think the thing is (unfortunately) a little bit more complicated. The phrases _proszę pani_, _proszę siostry_ (to a nurse or a nun), _proszę Wysokiego Sądu_ are used only as so called addressative forms. They are used to begin a conversation, to attract sb's attention etc.
> 
> If you *really* want *to* *ask* *sb* for something (or to do sth) you have to use proszę + the accusative case. For examlple: _*Proszę panią* o radę_, _*proszę siostrę* o pomoc_, _*proszę  Wysoki Sąd* o łaskę._


I guess it was information for foreigners studying Polish, because none od native-speakers should doubt that.


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## Ben Jamin

marco_2 said:


> I guess it was information for foreigners studying Polish, because none od native-speakers should doubt that.


I think that your guess is correct. What else could it be?


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## jasio

Ben Jamin said:


> Now I am confused. You wrote  in #6 "But it is by no means genitive: _proszę mamy, proszę taty ... "_
> Now you write: "Genitive (dopełniacz) - you can see it in feminine nouns: _proszę siostry, proszę koleżanki _etc."



You have to distinguish two distinct situations, which are often mixed:
* addressing a person formally - when "proszę" goes with genitive
* informing that you are asking a person to do something - when "proszę" goes with accusative

"Proszę siostry, niech siostra wreszcie przestanie grać na skrzypcach"
"Proszę siostrę, żeby przestała grać na skrzypcach". 

"Proszę pani, czy może pani ze mną zatańczyć"?
"Proszę panią do tańca".


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> You have to distinguish two distinct situations, which are often mixed:
> * addressing a person formally - when "proszę" goes with genitive
> * informing that you are asking a person to do something - when "proszę" goes with accusative
> 
> "Proszę siostry, niech siostra wreszcie przestanie grać na skrzypcach"
> "Proszę siostrę, żeby przestała grać na skrzypcach".
> 
> "Proszę pani, czy może pani ze mną zatańczyć"?
> "Proszę panią do tańca".


Why do you think that I don't distinguish them?


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