# I suggested he went/go



## domingoolivares

Buenas,

He visto dos ejemplos iguales y todavía no me queda claro el uso del subjuntivo

¿cual de estas dos frases sería más correcta? ¿significan las dos lo mismo?

- I suggested he *went* to the beach
- I suggested he *go* to the beach

A mi me gusta más la segunda ¿no?


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## chamyto

Hola, _suggest_ rige infinitivo con to o ing, si no me equivoco; no obstante, a ver si algún nativo puede decir si esas dos opciones son correctas.


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## domingoolivares

Vamos a ver, pues creo que tienes confundidos los conceptos. A mi parecer las estructuras de suggested son las siguientes:

- I suggested *going* to the beach (Sugerí ir a la playa)
- I suggested *to them going* to the beach (Les sugerí ir a la playa)
- I suggested *he go* to the beach (Sugerí que él fuera a la playa)

Mi pregunta va enmarcada a la última opción


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## chamyto

domingoolivares said:


> Vamos a ver, pues creo que tienes confundidos los conceptos. A mi parecer las estructuras de suggested son las siguientes:
> 
> - I suggested *going* to the beach (Sugerí ir a la playa)
> - I suggested *to them going* to the beach (Les sugerí ir a la playa)
> - I suggested *he go* to the beach (Sugerí que él fuera a la playa)
> 
> Mi pregunta va enmarcada a la última opción



He de admitir que desconocía la tercera opción, a mi entender yo hubiera puesto: 
I suggested to him to go to the beach.

Los hilos que hay en el diccionario confirman mi ignorancia (ahora ya no) sobre la tercera opción, pero añaden en la mayoría un _that , _con lo que supongo que sería _I suggested that he go to the beach._

Esperemos a ver qué dicen los nativos.


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## domingoolivares

Si introduces "suggest" en wordreference encontrarás esta opcion: I suggested (that) you leave

¿como lo dirías tú aquí? - I suggested to you to leave ¿sonaría un poco raro, no?


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## domingoolivares

Además, en tu opción, tu dices:

- I suggested to him to go to the beach (Le sugerí que fuera a la playa)

pero la frase no es esa ¿como dirías "*Yo sugerí que él fuera a la playa*"?

¿ves que son distintas?


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## chamyto

domingoolivares said:


> Además, en tu opción, tu dices:
> 
> - I suggested to him to go to the beach (Le sugerí que fuera a la playa)
> 
> pero la frase no es esa ¿como dirías "*Yo sugerí que él fuera a la playa*"?
> 
> ¿ves que son distintas?



Le sugerí/sugerí a él dicen lo mismo. El _le_ de la primera frase y el _a él_ son CI.

Yo sugerí a él que fuera a la playa/Le sugerí a él (ir/que fuera) a la playa. En definitiva dicen lo mismo.


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## domingoolivares

No, no estoy de acuerdo: 

- Le sugerí que fuera a la playa (implica que yo se lo sugerí a él directamente que fuera a la playa)

- Yo sugerí que él fuera a la playa (no implica que se lo dijera a él directamente, pude haberselo dicho a su madre, hermano..., sugerí que el hiciera algo, porque me parecia una buena idea, pero puede que alguien me dijera que no lo era y nunca se lo llegue a decir directamente). Como por ejemplo: Yo sugerí que el jefe nos subiera el sueldo ¿pero a que no se lo sugeriste a él directamente?

¿me pillas?


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## chamyto

domingoolivares said:


> No, no estoy de acuerdo:
> 
> - Le sugerí que fuera a la playa (implica que yo se lo sugerí a él directamente que fuera a la playa)
> 
> - Yo sugerí que él fuera a la playa (no implica que se lo dijera a él directamente, pude haberselo dicho a su madre, hermano..., sugerí que el hiciera algo, porque me parecia una buena idea, pero puede que alguien me dijera que no lo era y nunca se lo llegue a decir directamente). Como por ejemplo: Yo sugerí que el jefe nos subiera el sueldo ¿pero a que no se lo sugeriste a él directamente?
> 
> ¿me pillas?



Sí, en la primera opción se lo dices a él en persona; y en la segunda opción lo comentas con otra persona.


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## domingoolivares

Eso es, entonces volviendo a mi pregunta ¿como lo dirías?


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## SevenDays

domingoolivares said:


> Buenas,
> 
> He visto dos ejemplos iguales y todavía no me queda claro el uso del subjuntivo
> 
> ¿cual de estas dos frases sería más correcta? ¿significan las dos lo mismo?
> 
> - I suggested he *went* to the beach
> - I suggested he *go* to the beach
> 
> A mi me gusta más la segunda ¿no?



El subjuntivo se refiere al *modo* verbal; no al _tiempo_ gramatical.
En presente: _I suggest_ (_that_) _he *go* to the beach_
En pasado: _I suggest*ed*_ (_tha_t) _he *go* to the beach_
El subjuntivo "go" no cambia.
Si "suggested" tiene el sentido de "guess," "suspect," "suppose," etc. entonces va con el pasado de indicativo"went".

Saludos


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## FromPA

domingoolivares said:


> Además, en tu opción, tu dices:
> 
> - I suggested to him that he/we to go to the beach (Le sugerí que fuera a la playa)
> 
> pero la frase no es esa ¿como dirías "*Yo sugerí que él fuera a la playa*"?
> 
> ¿ves que son distintas?


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## inib

SevenDays said:


> El subjuntivo se refiere al *modo* verbal; no al _tiempo_ gramatical.
> En presente: _I suggest_ (_that_) _he *go* to the beach_
> En pasado: _I suggest*ed*_ (_tha_t) _he *go* to the beach_
> El subjuntivo "go" no cambia.
> Si "suggested" tiene el sentido de "guess," "suspect," "suppose," etc. entonces va con el pasado de indicativo"went".Saludos


In British English you will often hear (and read, even in language text books) _I suggested he *went* to the beach_. I am not trying to give an opinion, just mention a fact. Personally, I have the habit of using _should "I suggested he should go to the beach", _and that gets around the problem nicely!


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## blasita

To sum up,  'suggest' can be followed by an _-ing_ structure or a _that-clause_ (not an infinitive one). When followed by a _that-clause_, the modal verb 'should' and a subjunctive form are both possible. As far as I know, in these cases 'should' is more used in BrE (it doesn't mean that they never use the subjunctive) and the subjunctive in AmE.

As to 'I suggested (that) he went to the beach': would it be used in BrE with all the meanings of 'suggest', then?  Thank you.

Saludos.


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## sound shift

blasita said:


> As to 'I suggested that I went to the beach': would it be said in BrE in all the meanings of 'suggest', then?  Thank you.


I don't think you will ever hear this in BE, blasita. I certainly wouldn't use it: How can a person suggest something to himself/herself?


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## blasita

sound shift said:


> I don't think you will ever hear this in BE, blasita. I certainly wouldn't use it: How can a person suggest something to himself/herself?



Sorry, Sound Shift, it was a typo that I corrected immediately (as you can see above). So, is the past simple used the same way as 'should' in those cases, please?


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## inib

blasita said:


> To sum up, 'suggest' can be followed by an _-ing_ structure or a _that-clause_ (not an infinitive one). When followed by a _that-clause_, the modal verb 'should' and a subjunctive form are both possible. As far as I know, in these cases 'should' is more used in BrE (it doesn't mean that they never use the subjunctive) and the subjunctive in AmE.
> As to 'I suggested (that) he went to the beach': would it be used in BrE with all the meanings of 'suggest', then? Thank you.
> 
> Saludos.


Hi again, blasita. I'm using "I suggested (that) he *went* to the beach" in the sense that I proposed that it would be a good idea for him to go to the beach (not that I hinted that he might have gone to the beach, if that is what you mean by "all the meanings").
By no means do I mean that this version is better than the subjunctive, but you are right in saying that in the UK, we do tend to swerve the subjunctive more than in USA in cases like this, and we find it a rather formal style.
Maybe other Brits will be in disagreement with me, but my order of frequency/preference would be 1) should go 2)went 3) go. (I'd never use "goes")


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## blasita

Escribo en español, que parece que se me da bastante mejor. El tema es que SevenDays ha hablado de diferencia de uso del 'past simple' en estos casos, dependiendo del significado concreto de 'suggest', y lo que no tengo claro es si esto es cierto también en inglés británico.


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## sound shift

blasita said:


> Sorry, Sound Shift, it was a typo that I corrected immediately (as you can see above). So, is the past simple used the same way as 'should' in those cases, please?


 I would not use the simple past here if I was giving advice. I would say "I suggested (to him) that he should go to the beach". Is this just a personal preference? To try to answer that question, I looked in John Butt & Carmén Benjamin, _A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish_* (which was published in the UK) and found that it gives "I suggested to you that we should do it" for "Te propuse hacerlo/que lo hiciéramos/hiciésemos" - so at least two people's usage agrees with mine .

* Excellent book

What Seven Days says about the simple past is interesting. If a defendant in court says "I went to my mother's house that night" and the judge does not believe him, the judge may say "I suggest to you that you didn't go to your mother's house that night". This is of course equivalent to saying "I think you are lying" and not advice. In reported speech this would become "The judged suggested that the defendant didn't go to his mother's house that night."


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## inib

Bueno, blasita, no seré la más indicada para contestar a tu pregunta, porque yo no usaría _suggest_ con la idea de _guess/suppose_ etc. En todo caso, con la idea de _hint, mention_ o algo así. Espero que te despejen la duda pronto.

EDIT: I've just seen Sound Shift's answer, so I reckon we'd better put my preference #2 at the end of the list!!!


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## blasita

Muchas gracias, Inib y Sound Shift por vuestra respuesta.


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## inib

I haven't got any grammar books at hand today, so I've had to google. I've found the following in English Grammar in Use by Raymond Murphy. If I have attached the link correctly, I'm referring to Unit 34, towards the end of section B.
http://englishgrammarinuse.net/unit-34--should-2.html
However, I will admit, that while googling, though I found other advocators of "I suggested" + past simple, we seem to be harshly out-voted, even more so than I think can be explained by a simple American vs British discrepancy.


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## zetem

I agree with SevenDays, but with the following comments.
En presente: _I suggest_ (_that_) _he *(SHOULD) go* to the beach_  (strong suggestion = request)
En pasado: _I suggest*ed*_ (_tha_t) _he *(SHOULD)* *go* to the beach_ (strong suggestion = request)
El subjuntivo "go" no cambia. But in BE you can hear "_I suggest*ed*_ (_tha_t) _he goes to the beach_" (mild suggestion = personal opinion)


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## blasita

zetem said:


> El subjuntivo "go" no cambia. But in BE you can hear "_I suggest*ed*_ (_tha_t) _he goes to the beach_" (mild suggestion = personal opinion)



¿Es que se puede usar 'suggested' con 'goes'?


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## k-in-sc

It sounds horrendous to me.


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## inib

It looks like we can say just about anything we like, depending on where we are from! I wonder if we might find more consensus if we try on the English Only forum. I doubt it.


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## inib

I've just found this on the English only forum, and according to Michael Swan "anything goes"! - present, past, subjunctive and "should".
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2138532
However, after all the searching I've done in recent days, the *great majority* of speakers seem to prefer the subjunctive.


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## blasita

Gracias. Sí, yo sabía que en libros de gramática como el citado aparece, pero con 'suggest/s' no 'suggested'; ¿es que también se puede usar con el pasado? Yo esto último no lo había oído nunca.


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## horsewishr

Just to reinforce the difference between British and American English, I'm adding my two-cents' worth:


sound shift said:


> I would not use the simple past here if I was were giving advice. I would say "I suggested (to him) that he should go to the beach".


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## blasita

Hi Horsewishr.

And, grammatically speaking: would 'I suggested that he goes ...' be correct at all (regardless of the variety of English), please?

Un saludo.


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## inib

I agree with K. That really does sound horrendous, (and I can't imagine that any form of logic could defend that switch of tenses), but that's as far as I'm prepared to put my oar in!


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## horsewishr

blasita said:


> Hi Horsewishr.
> 
> And, grammatically speaking: would 'I suggested that he goes ...' be correct at all (regardless of the variety of English), please?
> 
> Un saludo.




Never in the sense of giving advice.  You could probably invent a scenario where it would work. . . 


> We were trying to figure out why he never gets to work on time.  And I suggested (as an explantation) that he goes to the donut store every morning.


In this case, the explanation is a known fact.  If it were only a _possible_ explanation (if I didn't know that this was his habit), I'd still use "went."

I suppose this is clear as mud!!!!!


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## blasita

horsewishr said:


> Never in the sense of giving advice.  You could probably invent a scenario where it would work. . .



I'll be working on it.  Thank you very much for your reply. (And thanks, K and Inib.)


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## sound shift

I couldn't say "I suggested that he goes" or "I suggested that he went". I could say "I suggested that he go" but in practice I would probably say "I suggested that he should go".


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## zetem

I think the following quote from "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English  Language" (Randolph Quirk, et al, Longman 1985), is relevant to this  subject:

(Section 16.32) "Suasive verbs: These verbs can be  followed by a that-clause either by the putative should or with the  mandative subjunctive. A third possibility, a that-clause with an  indicative verb, is largely restricted to BrE:

People are demanding that she should leave the company.
People are demanding that she leave the company.
People are demanding that she *leaves* the company. (esp, BrE)" (end of quote)

Examples of suasive verbs:suggest, recommend, insist, etc. (my comment)

(Section  14.25, Note C) "The use of the present subjunctive or putative should  in the subordinate clause evokes clearly the suasive meaning of the  verbs insist and suggest:

I insisted ('required') that he (should) change his clothes ((6)
I insisted ('asserted') that he changed his clothes (7)
She suggested ('recommended') that I (should) be responsible for the arrangements. (8)
She suggested (said tentatively) that I am responsible for the arrangements. (9)

While  (6) and (8) are unambiguously suasive, (7) and (9) may also be suasive  for those who use the indicative even after suasive verbs." (end of  quote)


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## sound shift

horsewishr said:


> Just to reinforce the difference between British and American English, I'm adding my two-cents' worth:


I don't think it's a simple AE/BE difference. I thought about using "were" because the grammarians seem to prefer it, but there are times when it sounds hyper-correct to my ears. This was one of them. I went for popular usage insread.


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## horsewishr

sound shift said:


> I don't think it's a simple AE/BE difference. I thought about using "were" because the grammarians seem to prefer it, but there are times when it sounds hyper-correct to my ears. This was one of them. I went for popular usage insread.


But that's the point, isn't it?  To me it doesn't sound hyper-correct.  Only correct


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## sound shift

We'll have to agree to differ on this. I choose whether or not I follow the prescriptions of the grammarians.


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## k-in-sc

That + indicative is not used in the U.S. This is exactly what the English subjunctive is for.


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## sound shift

What the subjunctive is "for" is a matter of local convention.


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## k-in-sc

Yeah, in some places it's for not being used


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## sound shift

Some of us use it, others don't. In the same way, some of you over there choose not to use certain structures - as is the right of those particular people.


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## inib

k-in-sc said:


> That + indicative is not used in the U.S. This is exactly what the English subjunctive is for.


In this case, you mean? Otherwise, it is surely a sweeping statement, isn't it?


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## k-in-sc

No, I mean that construction is not used here.


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