# Where did the English cognate of van & von go?



## Esoppe

This had me wondering after I realised both "of" and "off" came from the Germanic preposition "af". Why would the English apply the possession/connection/derivation meanings to "af/aef/of" while they probably had the Old English equivalent of van/von? _Did _they have said Old English equivalent; or did van and von develop in Dutch and German after English branched off (which I think is unlikely)? If there was an equivalent, has that equivalent survived in any modern words?

I failed to find information on these topics in my initial searches for van & von in English etymology dictionaries and of in Dutch & German etymology dictionaries. So I thought it best to ask people who could know.


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## Frank78

I think they developed independently.

1.) "Von" is always part of a last name. And they didn't exist in the German speaking area before the 10th century

2.) "Von" indicates a noble origin and was used like that (guy's name) von (place name). Nobility was alien to the Germanic society. Later "von" was also used by non-noble people to indicate their origin.

Perhaps the English chose "of" because of the closeness to the French "de" as most of their nobility was of French origin.


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## Ben Jamin

Frank78 said:


> I think they developed independently.
> 
> 1.) "Von" is always part of a last name. And they didn't exist in the German speaking area before the 10th century
> 
> 2.) "Von" indicates a noble origin and was used like that (guy's name) von (place name). Nobility was alien to the Germanic society. Later "von" was also used by non-noble people to indicate their origin.
> 
> Perhaps the English chose "of" because of the closeness to the French "de" as most of their nobility was of French origin.


As far as I understand "von" in German is an ordinary preposition meaning "from, of, by, about, on and with" (see for example https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/von), and by no means restricted to being a part of a (noble) name.
By the way, in the 10th century anyone could call himself "Hans von Bremen", the restriction of use to nobles only was introduced much later, but never became fully exclusive, many non nobles kept the right of using it too.


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## fdb

Of course “von” is a primary preposition meaning “from”; it did not originate in the Adelsprädikat as Frank seems to be suggesting (but perhaps I have misunderstood him). “Von” occurs only in Continental West Germanic and does not have an exact correspondence in other Germanic languages, to say nothing of Indo-European. So your question should not be how did English loose “von”, but how did German find it. The latter question is much debated, e.g. here:

http://www.dwds.de/?qu=von


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

Frank78 said:


> I think they developed independently.
> 
> 1.) "Von" is always part of a last name. And they didn't exist in the German speaking area before the 10th century
> 
> 2.) "Von" indicates a noble origin and was used like that (guy's name) von (place name). Nobility was alien to the Germanic society. Later "von" was also used by non-noble people to indicate their origin.
> 
> Perhaps the English chose *"of" because of the closeness to the French "de"* as most of their nobility was of *French origin*.



Can only think of creepy Daniel Defoe who went down that ("de") path not so long ago.

Mayhap better said: _most(?) of their nobility was Anglo-Norman (Norman/Flemish/Breton/scabby house-Anglo-Saxon) origin,_ not French.


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

fdb said:


> Of course “von” is a primary preposition meaning “from”; it did not originate in the Adelsprädikat as Frank seems to be suggesting (but perhaps I have misunderstood him). *“Von” occurs only in Continental West Germanic and does not have an exact correspondence in other Germanic languages, to say nothing of Indo-European.* *So your question should not be how did English loose “von”, but how did German find it.* The latter question is much debated, e.g. here:
> 
> http://www.dwds.de/?qu=von



Interesting. Guessing your talking for both "von" and "van". Anyway, even though "from" and "von" sound akin they're not etymologically kindred, right?

Anyway, "von"/"van"(?) only occuring in Continental West Germanic minds me of English "wan" which is said to not be found in other Germanic languages. Maybe influenced by "to wand" and "wane", "wan"could be cognate with "von"/"van", with von/van originally bearing a meaning of someone/wanderer coming from somewhere else but not knowing where(?), a past shrouded in darkness or lacking an history(?)

wan (adj.) 


Old English wann "dark, dusky, *lacking luster,*" later "leaden, pale, gray," *of uncertain origin, and not found in other Germanic languages.* The connecting notion is colorlessness. Perhaps related to wane. Related: Wanly; wanness.
wander (v.) 


Old English wandrian *"move about aimlessly, wander," from West Germanic *wandran "to roam about"* (cognates: Old Frisian wondria, Middle Low German, Middle Dutch wanderen, German wandern "to wander," a variant form of the root represented in Old High German wantalon "to walk, wander"), from PIE root *wendh- "to turn, wind, weave" (see wind (v.1)). In reference to the mind, affections, etc., attested from c. 1400. Related: Wandered; wandering. The Wandering Jew of Christian legend first mentioned 13c. (compare French le juif errant, German der ewige Jude).
wane (v.) 


Old English wanian "make or become smaller gradually, diminish, decline, fade," from Proto-Germanic *wanen (cognates: Old Saxon wanon, Old Norse vana, Old Frisian wania, Middle Dutch waenen, Old High German wanon "to wane, to grow less"), from *wano- "lacking," from PIE *we-no-, from root *eue- *"to leave, abandon,* give out" (see vain). Related: Waned; waning; wanes.


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## Walshie79

"Of" is hardly found in surnames in England, unlike French de or German von or Dutch van. It does turn up in noble titles (e.g. "Duke of Kent", "Prince of Wales") but never forms part of their surname (Prince William was called "William Wales" at university IIRC). Anglo-French families in the Middle Ages with "de" (or "le") tended to drop it when they became English-speaking; their surnames where they survive do so without it. So it's hard to see the French influence being responsible for it, if anything German "von" is used more like French "de" in names.

It does however have a cognate in the Scandinavian languages, af/av. So it could be that "von/van" is indeed an innovation of the Continental West Germanic languages which arose after English split off (what's the situation in Frisian?).


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## berndf

Frank78 said:


> I think they developed independently.
> 
> 1.) "Von" is always part of a last name. And they didn't exist in the German speaking area before the 10th century
> 
> 2.) "Von" indicates a noble origin and was used like that (guy's name) von (place name). Nobility was alien to the Germanic society. Later "von" was also used by non-noble people to indicate their origin.
> 
> Perhaps the English chose "of" because of the closeness to the French "de" as most of their nobility was of French origin.


We are speaking about the basic preposition here. Like fdb, I fail to understand why you are concentrating of its usage in nobility titles here.


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## berndf

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> Anyway, "von"/"van"(?) only occuring in Continental West Germanic minds me of English "wan" which is said to not be found in other Germanic languages. Maybe influenced by "to wand" and "wane", "wan"could be cognate with "von"/"van", with von/van originally bearing a meaning of someone/wanderer coming from somewhere else but not knowing where(?), a past shrouded in darkness or lacking an history(?)


The initial phoneme of_ von _is /f/. Remember that in German <v> is a spelling variant of <f>. No relation whatsoever with /w/.


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## merquiades

I may be off base but I always thought _von_, _van_ [fon, fan] corresponded rather well to _from_ in English, as _to_ corresponds equally to _zu_.  German often contracts _von_ to _vom_ with the definite article.  Yes, the r may not be easy to explain, but the meaning of these prepositions is often parallel.


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## berndf

_Fram _existed also in Old High German and Old Saxon. If is unlikely that _fram_ and _fon(e)/fan(e)_ were variants of one another.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> _fram_ and _fon(e)/fan(e)_ .


  Did they mean the same thing though?


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> Did they mean the same thing though?


_Fram_ originally had three meanings:

from, away
forwards
later
In Modern English only 1. has survived. In modern Scandinavian languages 2. & 3. still exist. In OHG and OS, sense 1. was already lost, as in modern Scandinavian languages. In German it continued to exist in senses 2. & 3. until the end of the Middle German period. I don't know if it still exists in some dialects.


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## exgerman

Getting back to the original question for a moment, apparently German von originated in a compound of the Germanic ancestors of what became English of+on.


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## fdb

exgerman said:


> Getting back to the original question for a moment, apparently German von originated in a compound of the Germanic ancestors of what became English of+on.



That is not the verdict of the DWDS:

Die etymologische Herleitung der nur im Kontinentalwestgerm. bezeugten Partikel ist ungeklärt. Vielleicht handelt es sich um eine Erweiterung mit nasalem Formans zu ie. _*po_ (vgl. lat. _po-_ in _positus_ ‘hingelegt, -gesetzt, gelegen’, awest. _pa-_ in _pazdaya-_ ‘wegscheuchen’, aslaw. _po_, russ. _po_, _по_ ‘auf, in, nach, längs, über etw. hin’), der Schwundstufe zu ie. _*apo_ ‘ab, weg’ (s.  ab), was allerdings nur die germ. Bildungen mit _-a-_ erklären würde. Der _o-_ Vokalismus ginge, falls er nicht erst im Germ. durch Schwachtonigkeit der Präposition entsteht, auf ein daneben anzusetzendes ie. _*apu_, _*pu_ zurück; ahd. _fona_ wäre dann mit aind. _púnaḥ_ ‘zurück, wieder, ferner, gleichwohl’ und möglicherweise mit griech. _pýmatos_ (_πύματος_) ‘der äußerste, letzte’ zu vergleichen. –


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## Esoppe

So the short answer is that there was no Proto-Germanic "von". Thank you for the responses and links. It's interesting that exclusive prepositions for the particular meanings that of and von are used for developed relatively late within the lifetime of Germanic languages.


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