# used to +  perfect infinitive? [e.g., used to have been]



## man of manners

Hi!

Can we ever use "used to" followed by a perfect infinitive [have + P.P]? Did this usage ever exist?

Thanks in advance!​


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## Glenfarclas

I'm fairly the sure the answer is essentially no.  A search on Google books for "used to have been" shows a lot of irrelevant results, several errors, and then one or two genuine possibilities, such as "All of the truths used to have been stated by Plato; all of the truths now have been adumbrated or approached by Hume."  Realistically, I can't imagine that anyone would ever need to use this structure.


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## man of manners

?" .I know no one finds it natural but I want to know for what grammatical reason it can be used and what is the difference between "used to + base verb" and "used to + perfect
infinitive
Here are some links on Google for more examples:
Google
"used to have been"‏ - بحث Google‏


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## JulianStuart

Many of the examples that come up in those results are not the structure you are asking about. (The used in many of them means utilized.)


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## velisarius

Some of the legitimate examples of this structure are antiquated:

..._a breach of privilege (of which they had not used to have been so negligent...)" _(1826)

The history of the rebellion and civil wars in England to which is added an historical view of the affairs of Ireland. [on large paper, cm.24].


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## Glenfarclas

man of manners said:


> I want to know for what grammatical reason it can be used



For all intents and purposes (especially those of an English learner), it cannot be used.  Sorry to disappoint.


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## Forero

velisarius said:


> Some of the legitimate examples of this structure are antiquated:
> 
> ..._a breach of privilege (of which they had not used to have been so negligent...)" _(1826)


The perfect infinitive here may be redundant, but the main problem with this is that it uses an obsolete meaning and an obsolete form, the past participle, of "use to".





Glenfarclas said:


> I'm fairly the sure the answer is essentially no.  A search on Google books for "used to have been" shows a lot of irrelevant results, several errors, and then one or two genuine possibilities, such as "All of the truths used to have been stated by Plato; all of the truths now have been adumbrated or approached by Hume."  Realistically, I can't imagine that anyone would ever need to use this structure.


I agree that that sentence is inelegant, but it does have meaning in modern-day English.

The difference between "had been stated" and "used to have been stated", in this case is that this "used to" is metalanguage, language about the use of language, expressing something about what we say (or think) and how we say (or think about) it.

For example (from _Alice's Adventures in Wonderland_):

"Mad Hatter: _Would you like a little more tea?_
Alice: _Well, I haven't had any yet, so *I can't very well take more*._"

Alice's statement is not about her ability to take more. She is objecting to the Mad Hatter's use of the word _more_. She means that the language of his question is flawed, and a "yes" or "no" in answer to it would be invalid as well.

Similarly, if I say "If he is not there, he must be here", I am not talking about an obligation he has (to be here) but about a logical obligation, our obligation to conclude that he is here.

So in the sentence in question, it used to be legitimate, i.e. "we" used to say/believe/insist, that all truths had been stated by Plato, but we can't (metalanguage again) any more.

Because "used to" is metalanguage here, replacing "used to have" with "had" destroys the meaning. So does an attempt to say it in active voice ("Plato used to have stated all of the truths").





man of manners said:


> ?" .I know no one finds it natural but I want to know for what grammatical reason it can be used and what is the difference between "used to + base verb" and "used to + perfect
> infinitive
> Here are some links on Google for more examples:
> Google
> "used to have been"‏ - بحث Google‏


I see only one other example of what you are talking about: "There used to have been", an incomplete sentence with no proper context.

It does not sound wrong to me, but I hesitate to say much about it without a full sentence.


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## man of manners

JulianStuart said:


> Many of the examples that come up in those results are not the structure you are asking about. (The used in many of them means utilized.)


I did know that. I will write the links to the relevant citations for you.
1- it is plausible that this well _used to have played_ a role in the heathen religion.
The link: Reginheim
2-  I've compared them to the 12" Peavey BW 1203 speakers (used in the Nashville 112E enclosure) and the JBL's, using my MosValve 500 power amp and my Transtube Fex, make my Franklin D-10 sound a little like the old Fender 2000 that I used to have played through the Twin Reverb
The link: Speakers - JBL vs. Peavey - The Steel Guitar Forum
Let's discuss these and if you have an objection, please justify why they are used in the first place.
To find the example in the internet page, copy it then press (Alt + F) and a small box will appear over the task bar so paste the example in it and press Enter.
the following link is very good:
"There used to have been"‏ - بحث Google‏
if you find irrelevant citations, please ignore it.


velisarius said:


> Some of the legitimate examples of this structure are antiquated:
> ..._a breach of privilege (of which they had not used to have been so negligent...)" _(1826)
> The history of the rebellion and civil wars in England to which is added an historical view of the affairs of Ireland. [on large paper, cm.24].


That is the first piece of information in this thread. We can know that this usage was used in the past and maybe it is unnatural because it is old use or antiquated.


Glenfarclas said:


> For all intents and purposes (especially those of an English learner), it cannot be used.  Sorry to disappoint


I agree it is not natural at all to use such a construction nowadays but I want to know why it was used. I mean: What meaning was it supposed to produce? When it was used?
-------------------
I have three possible logical reasons for using such a construction so we can discuss them once we are done with the above links, if you would like.


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## JulianStuart

man of manners said:


> 2-  I've compared them to the 12" Peavey BW 1203 speakers (used in the Nashville 112E enclosure) and the JBL's, using my MosValve 500 power amp and my Transtube Fex, make my Franklin D-10 sound a little like the old Fender 2000 that I used to have played through the Twin Reverb
> The link: Speakers - JBL vs. Peavey - The Steel Guitar Forum


I wish you luck in trying to find what was in the minds of those who used to use ( ) it the way you are researching. However, the link above is also one that does not use it that way:

... TheJBL's, ... make my Franklin D-10 sound a little like the old Fender 2000 (that I used to have) played through the Twin Reverb.


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## man of manners

JulianStuart said:


> ... TheJBL's, ... make my Franklin D-10 sound a little like the old Fender 2000 (that I used to have) played through the Twin Reverb.


Oh, I did not read the full context.


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## Forero

man of manners said:


> 1- it is plausible that this well _used to have played_ a role in the heathen religion.
> The link: Reginheim


This sounds like an idiosyncratic way to say "used to play a role".





> 2-  I've compared them to the 12" Peavey BW 1203 speakers (used in the Nashville 112E enclosure) and the JBL's, using my MosValve 500 power amp and my Transtube Fex, make my Franklin D-10 sound a little like the old Fender 2000 that I used to have played through the Twin Reverb
> The link: Speakers - JBL vs. Peavey - The Steel Guitar Forum


No perfect infinitive here.





> Let's discuss these and if you have an objection, please justify why they are used in the first place.
> To find the example in the internet page, copy it then press (Alt + F) and a small box will appear over the task bar so paste the example in it and press Enter.
> the following link is very good:
> "There used to have been"‏ - بحث Google‏
> if you find irrelevant citations, please ignore it.


These examples all use "there used to have been" to mean "there used to be". I don't see any need for the perfect construction in them or in the "used to have played a role" sentence.

This usage, then, is similar to the common construction "_I would have liked to have_ + past participle", in which, in my opinion, one _have_ would be better than two (either "_I would have liked to_ + bare infinitive" or "_I would like to have_ + past participle" would work).





> That is the first piece of information in this thread. We can know that this usage was used in the past and maybe it is unnatural because it is old use or antiquated.
> 
> I agree it is not natural at all to use such a construction nowadays but I want to know why it was used. I mean: What meaning was it supposed to produce? When it was used?
> -------------------
> I have three possible logical reasons for using such a construction so we can discuss them once we are done with the above links, if you would like.


I would like to see your three possible reasons. I have already thought of one more besides the metalanguage idea in the "used to have been stated" sentence.


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## man of manners

Forero said:


> I would like to see your three possible reasons. I have already thought of one more besides the metalanguage idea in the "used to have been stated" sentence.


A suggestion: "Used to have + p.p" = "had used to + infinitive" 
Another one: "Used to have + p.p" can show that the verb used in this structure was a habit that happened before one other event so "used to have +p.p" conveys the meaning of the past perfect taking the habit into consideration.
Another one: "Used to have + p.p" can show that the verb used in this structure was originally in the present perfect but when it was finished, the tense was backshifted considering the action as a habit.

What ones do you find grammatically right?


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## Forero

man of manners said:


> A suggestion: "Used to have + p.p" = "had used to + infinitive"


In my opinion, if "used to" does not add any meaning to a given sentence, it is best not to use it in that sentence.





> Another one: "Used to have + p.p" can show that the verb used in this structure was a habit that happened before one other event so "used to have +p.p" conveys the meaning of the past perfect taking the habit into consideration.
> Another one: "Used to have + p.p" can show that the verb used in this structure was originally in the present perfect but when it was finished, the tense was backshifted considering the action as a habit.
> 
> What ones do you find grammatically right?


Neither of these interpretations works for me, but I was thinking of something like repeated observation that finds that something has been done, which is not quite the same as an observation that finds that something has been done repeatedly.

In other words, "used to have been" ought to mean something more like "kept having been" than like "had kept being".

But that is just my little theory, and unfortunately, we still have only one (inelegant) example (the "used to have been stated" sentence). In that example, I think the repeated observation idea may be there, but the metalanguage idea is thrown in as well.


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## man of manners

Forero said:


> In my opinion, if "used to" does not add any meaning to a given sentence, it is best not to use it in that sentence.


I meant that "used to have +p.p" combines the perfect aspect meaning with the notion of 'habit'.

Note: "He used to play well. He had played well before he had an accident." and when combining these two sentences we can get the unnatural construction: "He used to have played well before he had an  accident"


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## Loob

Man of manners, it seems to me that you tend to raise issues where you already know the answer.

Which is fine ... except that you need to make that clear in your questions.


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## jmichaelm

man of manners said:


> "He used to have played well before he had an  accident"


No native speaker would ever use English this way. It's extremely unnatural.


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## man of manners

Loob said:


> Man of manners, it seems to me that you tend to raise issues where you already know the answer.
> Which is fine ... except that you need to make that clear in your questions.


I just have some logical explanations that I need you to tell your opinion on.


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## mink-shin

Hi, dear members.

I'm neither a teacher nor a native speaker. But I have an opinion about it. Would it be okay to spill it out ?  Atmosphere in this thread is so tough for me to breath.  It isn't because of you guys but because of my little knowledge. 

1) "All of the truths used to have been stated by Plato; all of the truths now have been adumbrated or approached by Hume."
1-1) All of the truths used to be stated...
2) it is plausible that this well _used to have played_ a role in the heathen religion.
The link: Reginheim
2-1) It is plausible that this well used to play a role...
It sounds, to me, as if in those two sentences(1,2) above the writers wanted to emphasize the accomplishments of the verbs in the past, which are 'for all of the truths to have been stated' and 'for this to play', compared with the versions without 'have past participle'(1-1,2-1).
3)..._a breach of privilege (of which they had not used to have been so negligent...)" _(1826)
3-1)...a breach of privilege (of which they had not used to be...)
The history of the rebellion and civil wars in England to which is added an historical view of the affairs of Ireland. [on large paper, cm.24].
I don't see any difference between them.

Thanks.


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## siares

Forero said:


> ... I was thinking of something like repeated observation that finds that something has been done, which is not quite the same as an observation that finds that something has been done repeatedly.
> In other words, "used to have been" ought to mean something more like "kept having been" than like "had kept being".


Forero, I can't understand this this theoretically, would you be kind and give an example? I was able to understand the example with Plato, could you compare yours with that one?


mink-shin said:


> 2) it is plausible that this well _used to have played_ a role in the heathen religion.
> The link: Reginheim


I clicked the link and the source text was written by a non-native speaker. Another sentence from there: Although there have been no temple on the Tankenberg there are clear clues that the Tankenberg used to have been a religious place.


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## Forero

mink-shin said:


> 1) "All of the truths used to have been stated by Plato; all of the truths now have been adumbrated or approached by Hume."
> 1-1) All of the truths used to be stated...


In the Plato sentence, both "used to" and the perfect aspect of the infinitive contribute to the meaning. You can't replace "used to have" with "had" or "have been stated" with "be stated" without destroying the meaning.





man of manners said:


> I meant that "used to have +p.p" combines the perfect aspect meaning with the notion of 'habit'.
> 
> Note: "He used to play well. He had played well before he had an accident." and when combining these two sentences we can get the unnatural construction: "He used to have played well before he had an  accident"


Is this not the same as your suggestion 1, above?

Though modern "used to" has some characteristics of a modal, this is not one of them. "_Used to_ + perfect infinitive" is not, in modern-day English, equivalent to the outmoded "perfect of _used to_ + bare infinitive".

In other words, "he used to have played", if it is possible in modern-day English, has to mean "His having played used to be the case", not "his playing had been the case".





siares said:


> Forero, I can't understand this this theoretically, would you be kind and give an example? I was able to understand the example with Plato, could you compare yours with that one?


I have scratched my head for a while and come up with one example of my own.

Suppose I take periodic trips to Europe and, for a while, every time I went somewhere new, Paris, Lausanne, Hamburg, Gratz, Barcelona, etc., I found that my cousin had already been there ahead of me. But that was back then. Now I go places my cousin has never been. I might say, "Everywhere I went back then, my cousin used to have already been."

That makes sense to me in the same way the Plato sentence does, but without being "meta".


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## Glenfarclas

Forero said:


> In the Plato sentence, both "used to" and the perfect aspect of the infinitive contribute to the meaning. You can't replace "used to have" with "had" or "have been stated" with "be stated" without destroying the meaning.



And, in fact, the writer is being just a little bit humorous.  What he really means is "It used to be thought that all of the truths were stated by Plato."  It's something like saying "Christopher Columbus used to have discovered the New World" (i.e, but now we believe that Leif Erickson or somebody else discovered it earlier).

It's a very unusual type of usage which would not be appropriate in almost any other kind of sentence.


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## JulianStuart

Glenfarclas said:


> And, in fact, the writer is being just a little bit humorous.  What he really means is "It used to be thought that all of the truths were stated by Plato."  It's something like saying "Christopher Columbus used to have discovered the New World" (i.e, but now we believe that Leif Erickson or somebody else discovered it earlier).
> 
> It's a very unusual type of usage which would not be appropriate in almost any other kind of sentence.


(Reminds me of Al Gore's humorous "used to" comment about the future: "Hello, I'm Al Gore, I used to be the next president of the United States")


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## siares

Forero said:


> I have scratched my head for a while and come up with one example of my own.


Thank you very much, Forero, I got it!


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## mink-shin

JulianStuart said:


> (Reminds me of Al Gore's humorous "used to" comment about the future: "Hello, I'm Al Gore, I used to be the next president of the United States")



Does _the next president_ have the meaning, _vice president_?


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## Forero

mink-shin said:


> Does _the next president_ have the meaning, _vice president_?


No. He was once a confident candidate for President.


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## mink-shin

Forero said:


> No. He was once a confident candidate for President.


Oh, I see.


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## man of manners

Forero said:


> In the Plato sentence, both "used to" and the perfect aspect of the infinitive contribute to the meaning. You can't replace "used to have" with "had" or "have been stated" with "be stated" *without destroying the meaning*.


How would this destroy the meaning?
Please, give the two meanings you think of and compare them.


Forero said:


> Suppose I take periodic trips to Europe and, for a while, every time I went somewhere new, Paris, Lausanne, Hamburg, Gratz, Barcelona, etc., I found that my cousin had already been there ahead of me. But that was back then. Now I go places my cousin has never been. I might say, "Everywhere I went back then, my cousin used to have already been."
> That makes sense to me in the same way the Plato sentence does, but without being "meta".


What is the exact usage of "used to have +p.p" here?
What meaning does it have different from "used to +bare infinitive"?


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## Forero

man of manners said:


> How would this destroy the meaning?
> Please, give the two meanings you think of and compare them.
> 
> What is the exact usage of "used to have +p.p" here?
> What meaning does it have different from "used to +bare infinitive"?


Are you asking about "Everywhere I went back then, my cousin used to already be"?


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## man of manners

Forero said:


> Are you asking about "Everywhere I went back then, my cousin used to already be"?


No, I am asking about the Plato sentence.


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## Forero

man of manners said:


> No, I am asking about the Plato sentence.


The Plato sentence is not talking about what Plato used to say but about the significance later centuries ascribed to Plato's ideas. Since then, more significance has been ascribed to some of Hume's ideas, seemingly eclipsing some of Plato's.

I thought I explained this in #7, and Glenfarclas explained it again in #21.


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## man of manners

If  you won't be bothered, can you please explain it again more simply and in brief?


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## velisarius

_A When I was young, *you used to be liable to catch a cold *from sitting in a draught.
_
When I was young, *people used to say*: "If you sit in a draught, *you'll catch a cold"*.
_

B (When I was young), *all the truths used to have been stated *by Plato.
_
When I was young, *people used to say*: "*All truths have (already) been stated *by Plato.

In B, you really need to retain the present perfect tense in order to get the full meaning of "All truths have been stated by Plato". "All truths *were* stated by Plato" doesn't include the idea that these truths were/are diachronic. Then "people used to say" is compressed into a passive "used to have been", so we arrive at B.


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## man of manners

I got it! thanks.
BTW, I mentioned a reason in which I said that the perfect infinitive used after "used to" was originally a backshifted present perfect the same way as your sentence but they did not agree with me.


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## Forero

man of manners said:


> I got it! thanks.
> BTW, I mentioned a reason in which I said that the perfect infinitive used after "used to" was originally a backshifted present perfect the same way as your sentence but they did not agree with me.


We seem to be using different terminology. The perfect infinitive is tenseless, so it is not a backshifted present. But it does have the same perfect aspect inherent in present perfect and past perfect.

The Plato sentence says that "All truths have been stated by Plato" used to be "true". It does not make literal sense, but it makes figurative sense (as metalanguage).


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## man of manners

Forero said:


> We seem to be using different terminology. The perfect infinitive is tenseless, so it is not a backshifted present.


I said this about his sentence not this one but I wanted to mention that one of the reasons I gave was real by seeing the other sentence in post #32


Forero said:


> The Plato sentence says that "*All truths have been stated* by Plato" used to be "true". It does not make literal sense, but it makes figurative sense (as metalanguage).


Don't you think we should use the past perfect here?
]p.s: there is a "which" missing in the sentence in bold]


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## Forero

man of manners said:


> I said this about his sentence not this one but I wanted to mention that one of the reasons I gave was real by seeing the other sentence in post #32
> 
> Don't you think we should use the past perfect here?


No.





> ]p.s: there is a "which" missing in the sentence in bold]


There is no "which" missing.


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## PaulQ

man of manners said:


> that I used to have played through the Twin Reverb


This is the causative form of the verb. 

Compare: "I have sold the car that I used to have serviced by my brother."


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## Forero

PaulQ said:


> This is the causative form of the verb.
> 
> Compare: "I have sold the car that I used to have serviced by my brother."


I thought that too, for a while, but now I think the explanation in #9 makes more sense, and there should be a comma before "played".

I agree that that sentence does not contain a perfect infinitive.


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## man of manners

Forero said:


> No
> There is no "which" missing.


"All truths *which had* been stated by Plato" used to be "true".
Now, it makes sense.


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## Loob

You haven't understood Forero's point, man of manners.

Re-stating slightly: _The Plato sentence says that the statement "All truths have been stated by Plato" used to be a true statement._


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## man of manners

Oh, thanks, Loob.
Got it!


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## Cheburator

That was an extremely interesting thread!

And what about this sentence:
"Things that used to have been done manually are now taken care of by different computer systems."
Do I get it right that we can just say here "things that used to be done manually" without any change in meaning? Or there _is_ a difference?


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## Loob

The sentence you've found wasn't written by a native speaker of English, Cheburator.

Things that used to have been done manually...
Things that used to be done manually...


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## Cheburator

Thank you very much, Loob! Non-native speakers cause so much trouble to other non-native speakers


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