# Problems with English-Spanish forums



## Cecilio

The other day I posted three questions on the "Spanish-English: General Vocabulary" forum and the replies I got were very few, and mainly from non-native speakers of English. On the other hand, it seems that, in comparison, there are not so many native speakers of English willing to provide answers to these questions. If you take a look at the Spanish-Italian forum you'll see that the attitude there is completely different.

That's why I think that, unfortunately, the Spanish-English forums are becoming more and more useless. There are too many people in it and not all of them are quite aware of how they can really help people. The main point is that a native speaker of a given langugae should normally give advice on his/her own mother tongue, unless it is very clear to them that they can give an interesting answer about a language that's not their mother tongue. I suppose maybe some guidelines about these things could be helpful.

In my opinion this is a serious problem, we are reaching a critical stage.


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## Paulfromitaly

Some of the English speaking foreros who usually post in EN - IT are so proficient in Italian that they are often able to help other foreigners who are learning Italian in a more clear and understandable way than how some native Italians can do.
I can't see why they should refrain from doing it for the sole reason they are not Italian native speakers.
You're always free to wait for someone else's help when you don't trust the answers you have already received, without slurring those who've tried to be helpful.


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## Cecilio

Yes, Paul, I agree with you that the opinion of non-native speakers may be useful, I'm not denying this, but the situation in the Spanish-English forums is quite different from the Italian ones. As I said in the first post, we're reaching what I call a 'critical stage'. There's no way I can expect more answers to my questions because they simply never appear. Whenever a new thread is opened, it receives one or two answers and then it's completely forgotten, regardless of how interesting the thread might be. I think it works like this: foreros look at threads but they don't usually open the ones with one or two replies, because they tend to think "Ok, it has already been answered, so I'll read another one". The Spanish-English forums are too busy, too quick, that's why I think special measures should be taken.


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## Outsider

Maybe a split into Spanish-English and English-Spanish?... I don't know if this is viable. I have to say that often when a question about English, written in English, is posted in the S-E forums, it would probaby get better replies if it were posted in English Only. However, I think this situation is general, not just with Spanish: there are more English speakers asking about other languages, than the reverse.


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## alexacohen

You have a ready made forum for all-in-English questions. The English Only forum.
But I'm afraid that there are non natives answering there, too.

And you are absolutely wrong discarding non-native-of-English posts so easily. I wouldn't ever dream discarding an opinion or translation given by many non-native Spanish speakers who have so deep a knowledge of the Spanish language that they could match any Spanish Nobel price-winner. 
Jósef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski was a non-native speaker, too. Would you discard his opinion simply because in his profile appeared Native of: Ukrania?


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## anthodocheio

I understand Cecilio. I am a non-native speaker of both Spanish and English, and not even a good one, and yet I’m answering questions concerning any of them two.. Sometimes I do know the answer, sometimes I just add a question, but sometimes, when I find a forgotten thread at the fourth page for example, I try to find some answer, I do some research and I write what I can, just not to leave it with zero replies. Sometimes we’re lucky and someone else answers too when they see it in the first page again. And I say “we”, and I mean it...
What I do doesn’t make me feel good but I have felt really happy those few times I really helped someone...

And, I hope you don’t mind that much that we non natives ..nos metemos en el foro...

Cordiales saludos


PD: And, indeed, something has to be done with “General Vocabulary / Vocabulario General”.


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## Cecilio

Outsider said:


> Maybe a split into Spanish-English and English-Spanish?...


 
I think that's probably a good idea. It deserves some attention.



alexacohen said:


> And you are absolutely wrong discarding non-native-of-English posts so easily. I wouldn't ever dream discarding an opinion or translation given by many non-native Spanish speakers who have so deep a knowledge of the Spanish language that they could match any Spanish Nobel price-winner.
> Jósef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski was a non-native speaker, too. Would you discard his opinion simply because in his profile appeared Native of: Ukrania?


 
Who talked about "discarding non-native-of-English posts"? Nobody here did. What we all agree on is that there is a real problem and we need imaginative solutions, which may include writing some guidelines about this particular matter: how a native or a non-native speaker should more or less use their knowledge to their best. Some foreros, especially the new ones, are not aware of this problem, because obviously they don't have any sort of historical perspective on how WR works or used to work. And I am convinced that WR has a great potential.


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## EmilyD

As a person for whom English is my first language, I have answered many questions in the Spanish/English forum and have found that other English speakers have challenged my posts.

The distinctions between "The Queen's English" and the language(s) spoken in the U.S. and other lesser (   ) countries are not subtle.
*
 I am thrilled  with the General Vocabulary: Spanish / English & En. /Sp. forum.
*
My one recommendation which I still maintain is that it would be useful to add a subforum with Academic and Educational Terminology/Rhetoric. Currently some of those questions end up in Specialized, but the majority surface and remain in the "central square"...

Fondly, 
*Nomi*


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## Cecilio

In my humble opinion, many foreros don't use the forums appropriately. They are not aware of the fact that some of their comments are not very useful. I speak English with a very high level of proficiency. However, I think twice before I give my opinion about some English phrase. That's what I call common sense. Let's face it: there are some foreros who are a bit over-cooperative or over-enthusiastic, and they think they are always being helpful when in fact in many cases they aren't. Their enthusiasm is OK, but we can organize things better in WR.


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## alexacohen

Cecilio said:


> In my humble opinion, many foreros don't use the forums appropriately. They are not aware of the fact that some of their comments are not very useful. I speak English with a very high level of proficiency.


So do I.
And many others.
And finally, yes, I have seen answers that were both badly written and wrong. But they were posted by both natives and non natives.


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## cyanista

I am with you Cecilio! The Vocabulario General has grown so monstrous that I no longer dare open a thread in it. A few times that I tried it was actually very frustrating. The questions are too many and if you have already got a few answers, practically no one is going to read the thread again, even if the answers are not quite satisfactory. Putting more questions in the same thread doesn't help much, either. 

I'd be very glad to see it split somehow but who's going to sort those thousands threads that are already there?


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## Jana337

I once suggested that Vocabulario could be split into Vocabulario 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. This way, we'd have five forums, each of the size of the Italian forum. 
*Criterium*: None. Do you know a better one?
*Why should it work?* Why not? Queues at several counters that provide the same service tend to be equally long as well. The law of large numbers would take care of that. Right, newbies would probably run to 1, seasoned members would know better and ask elsewhere.

Disclaimer: I visit Vocabulario as often as never so I am probably not the best person to evaluate the extent of the problem and to make suggestions.


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## ILT

Cecilio said:


> In my humble opinion, many foreros don't use the forums appropriately. They are not aware of the fact that some of their comments are not very useful.


I agree, but unless their posts breach a specific WR rule, we cannot delete those posts. 





Cecilio said:


> I speak English with a very high level of proficiency. However, I think twice before I give my opinion about some English phrase. That's what I call common sense.


This is very nice, but we cannot force that on other members. 





Cecilio said:


> Let's face it: there are some foreros who are a bit over-cooperative or over-enthusiastic, and they think they are always being helpful when in fact in many cases they aren't. Their enthusiasm is OK, but we can organize things better in WR.


We have been trying for a long time to reorganize VG, but still haven't come up with a good practical idea. If you have one, please share it with any SP-Mod and we'll take in consideration.

However, I disagree on the way you imply that GV is a useless forum. It helps many many people every day. If you are unhappy with the replies received, you can always add more information and ask for some sort of confirmation (What dictionary was the information obtained from? Where was that construction used?). Many times we're just given a single word or a very short sentence, and that limits the replies.


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## Cecilio

ILT said:


> However, I disagree on the way you imply that GV is a useless forum. It helps many many people every day. If you are unhappy with the replies received, you can always add more information and ask for some sort of confirmation (What dictionary was the information obtained from? Where was that construction used?). Many times we're just given a single word or a very short sentence, and that limits the replies.



In some cases I'm faced with a situation in which the only comment I can add is something like: "OK, any native speakers out there?"


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## ILT

In such cases, some foreros like to contact (via PM) knowledgeable foreros they have helped or interacted with before, and ask them to visit their thread and participate in it. Very rarely the contacted forero will refuse 

Please remember that participation here is voluntary, and even though I'm a native Spanish speaker, there are some Spanish-related questions I will just not answer, because I can't explain my reasoning or because someone who speaks Spanish but not as a native has a better answer. 

It is your decision to wait for natives only, but we cannot make them reply in your thread.


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## cuchuflete

Sidestepping the difficult issue of the high level of activity in Vocabulario general,
_[Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded.--Yogi Berra] _if your English is good enough to explain what you are looking for, and Cecilio is certainly at that skill level, you are invited to present your attempts in the monolingual English Only forum.  The members there will be happy to help you select and polish the most appropriate phrasing.  Please bear in mind that other languages are not to be used in that forum. We have had a talented non-native as a member of the moderator staff in that forum, and some of our most active and helpful foreros are non-native English speakers with excellent skills.


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## Cecilio

cuchuflete said:


> Sidestepping the difficult issue of the high level of activity in Vocabulario general,
> _[Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded.--Yogi Berra] _if your English is good enough to explain what you are looking for, and Cecilio is certainly at that skill level, you are invited to present your attempts in the monolingual English Only forum.  The members there will be happy to help you select and polish the most appropriate phrasing.  Please bear in mind that other languages are not to be used in that forum. We have had a talented non-native as a member of the moderator staff in that forum, and some of our most active and helpful foreros are non-native English speakers with excellent skills.



I have used the "english only" forum many times, and it's obvious that when I use the Spanish-Engllish ones is because my query involves both languages.

It's funny, I've been correcting some students' compositions this morning and there were some things I would have liked to ask in WR, but I finally decided that it was not worth the effort. That's my problem.


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## anthodocheio

Cecilio said:


> It's funny, I've been correcting some students' compositions this morning and there were some things I would have liked to ask in WR, but I finally decided that it was not worth the effort. That's my problem.


 
Cecilio, please! At least try it. 
I know what you mean. You wish that your threads could be treated as those at the other forums...

At least you might have the attention of those that have read this thread...


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## Sidjanga

Jana337 said:


> I once suggested that Vocabulario could be split into Vocabulario 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. This way, we'd have five forums, each of the size of the Italian forum.
> *Criterium*: None. Do you know a better one?
> *Why should it work?* Why not? Queues at several counters that provide the same service tend to be equally long as well. The law of large numbers would take care of that. Right, newbies would probably run to 1, seasoned members would know better and ask elsewhere.


It seems a good idea, but I doubt that it would work, though.

The idea of five counters and queues is that five employees can attend the the same number of customers more rapidly that just one or two employees.

 The effect of this measure (splitting up the forum) would just be to reduce the throughput or speed with which the threads in each forum pass on to the second page.
This would probably make it easier to orientate oneself on the first page of each forum and give you the impression or _illusion_ that you –and everybody else, too- have more time to read and answer questions. But that doesn´t actually happen as long as the total number of threads and foreros making questions and commenting them, respectively, remains the same.

  To actually increase the time of attention each thread can receive (statistically), you would have to increase the number of people who answer/comment the questions made and who are eager to read and revise threads that have already received one ore two answers.
  It is more, this way (splitting up the forum in 4 or 5 subforums without any further specification), someone versed in a certain topic who is reading and participating in forum number 5, for example, might completely miss a thread inquiring about this topic in forum 1.

  The only way of improving the forums efficiency I can think of is to open more subspecialities, so that experts who can provide real help on a certain topic wouldn´t "waste" their time reading and answering general questions many other foreros without special knowledge could equally provide a satisfactory answer to.

  The problem is certainly there, though.

Maybe a possible solution consists in winning everybody else's questions with the most original and attractive title on the page that everybody is terribly keen on reading and answering to.


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## Víctor Pérez

En este preciso momento, de los aproximadamente 7700 usuarios que hay en línea, unos 3500 están visitando el Inglés-Español, lo cual me parece una proporción muy elevada (cerca del 50%). 
Por otro lado, veo que la frecuencia de las consultas es vertiginosa: unas 60 consultas en 60 minutos, es decir, una por minuto. Algunas de estas consultas quedan sin contestar durante un buen rato.
Finalmente, salvo excepciones, la media de respuestas es de 3 por consulta. Me temo que en el E-S tenemos un problema de quasi-saturación que puede perjudicar a la atención al consultante y, por ende, a la calidad de las respuestas. Creo que, en términos generales, esto le da la razón a Cecilio (su reflexión no es individualista) y *debemos intentar encontrar una solución entre todos cuanto antes*: en el E-S, la extraordinaria buena voluntad de la que hacemos todos gala -sobre todo los mods- no basta para mantener su alto nivel y su prestigio. Nos cabe reflexionar y proponer sugerencias.

(I'm afraid, Jana, that the split of the Vocabulario would isolate the newbies)


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## cirrus

I can understand some of the frustration here.  I scan this forum  by hovering with the mouse over something interesting looking.  In the majority of cases I just pass on and check through Spanish only or specialised vocab if I want to learn something.  

I find myself getting wound up when thread originators don't come back confirming context. This thread has an example where a chance to learn something was lost.  I think there is a very real risk that this forum will turn into something as garbage infested as the pre-upgrade euro dicatom database - unless there is a radical pruning the place will be crowded with so many unresolved or plain shoddy threads it will cease to be a useful resource. 

And yet I am torn.  Why?  I enjoy the interactivity and also see that being a native of a given language doesn't by any means give them the monopoly of insight. Having said that there have been times when perfectly adequate answers have been given (by non natives) only to have some smart Alec say and what about a native  thereby paralysing the thread because either nobody is up at that time or it is so obvious to a native they wouldn't ask the question in the first place.  


Sorry no conclusions but let's keep debating and raising the quality where we can.


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## Jana337

> To actually increase the time of attention each thread can receive (statistically), you would have to increase the number of people who answer/comment the questions made and who are eager to read and revise threads that have already received one ore two answers.


The statistical amount attention is independent of the way you split the forum, though (unless a better organization would increase the amount of time people spend there and also the number of visitors). It would be ideal to separate some thematic areas into subforums but as far as I know, it has been pondered before and no one came up with a reasonably well-defined field that could constitute a subforum.

I agree that a non-random split is better than a random one but the latter might be better than nothing. One major problem with my suggestion, though: Many members, newbies in particular, would be tempted to post the same question in all five forums.


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## cirrus

There are several parts to this question. On the one hand the forum has become a huge database and intelligent user can find a huge amount of information which may well answer their query right away. However both the quality of the information stored and responses to live threads are to say the least variable.  To my mind the key question is whether we can keep interactivity and improve quality/ reliability. 

I wonder whether there is mileage in setting some sort of peer marking system as to agreement between people with a good grasp of the relevant languages as to whether they would endorse a particular take and to what to degree. I am aware this could open a can of worms as it would imply some foreros have more status than others. I feel it's a nettle worth grasping: without some sort of investment in quality, this lively forum's value is undermined.


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## Philippa

Hello,
I've been thinking about this thread overnight ...

I agree it's disappointing when you only get a couple of replies. I asked a question in EO recently, although I'm normally in Vocabulario, and I secretly thought 'This'll be fun and interesting, I may get a few more replies compared to normal' but actually my question soon disappeared into the back pages and whilst it is answered, I am still a teeny weeny bit disappointed  Why is it that questions don't get so many answers nowadays? Is it because we have lots of new members and they tend to start off by asking questions more than answering them? I've been wondering why I don't answer more questions when I do spend some time reading them - sometimes I just feel that my answer would add so little that it's not worth it (the answer is easily found in the dictionary or another similar thread, or I'm just agreeing, or it's a guess 'cos there's not really enough context) and I like to only post nice thorough answers!! A few minutes ago I went to look at some not-so-new pages of EO and I found quite a few threads with not many replies. I broke the habits of my usual WR life and wrote an 'I agree' answer to a thread on page 7. Perhaps the person who started that will be pleased to not just have one reply?!

What a ramble already!

What might I do if were Mike/the Spanish Mod crew? Perhaps there should be some general encouragement for us to answer questions more as well as ask them? What do you all think about the type of reply that doesn't really add much? What do you think about reporting threads that are easy dictionary or other thread look-ups? And what about the ones with a little bit, but not enough context? Perhaps we should be encouraged to use EO or Sólo Español where possible in the title of Vocabulario? I know that I avoid using Sólo Español to ask my questions that I could ask there instead of Vocabulario, sometimes because it's harder, slower work to type the question in Spanish and I know I should make a good effort with its phrasing and because I'm lazy about the reply and it's often easier just to know the translation. Also my perception of Sólo Español is that it's quite a sophisticated place with deep and meaningful questions rather than a learner's little queries and sometimes I worry that 'my' thread would spiral away from what I can comfortably understand, but that I'd feel obliged to try since I asked the question in the first place! I know EO isn't like this and does have learners' questions.

Would you really split up Vocabulario with all the zillions of old questions too? Do any new sub foros need to be really well-defined? Wouldn't they still help even if they were only a rough way of splitting it up? My suggestions: a learners foro (for beginners and within-the-rules homework type queries), a work terminology foro (I seem to read threads about job titles and things like that all the time), a science foro (now I'd like that a lot ), a conversational/informal language foro. I know these aren't perfect, but maybe they'll help someone think of something better. I think we'll always end up with a general vocab one too. I don't like the idea of Eng-->Sp 
and Sp-->Eng separately, but I don't really know why!

What a long post - sorry.
Fortunately for the bored, I have to go now!!
Saludos
Philippa


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## Sidjanga

cirrus said:


> I find myself getting wound up when thread originators don't come back confirming context. ...


I think this is certainly one of the most important reasons that contribute to making the forum inefficient and a frustrating experience for many a forero. 
Also, that there are too many questions that could be answered by simply consulting a dictionary.

Maybe it would be possible to make even clearer that people _have to_ provide context as far as possible and, maybe, one could even think of excluding from the forum those who more than once don´t do so, o who, in other words, are not even prepared to colaborate in the solution of their own requests?


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## Cecilio

It seems that there's some general concern about the problems in WR forum, specially the English-Spanish ones. Inferring from the ideas expressed in this thread, I have tried to summarise these problems in the following list:
- Basically there are a lot of questions and a lot of people using it constantly, which causes some feelings of 'dizziness'.

- It seems that many foreros, especially the new ones, do not follow the rules very adequately. For example, they ask questions which can easily be answered by means of a dictionary or other reference material.

- Some foreros are so willing to help that they post answers even if they're not very helpful.

- A lot of foreros, including some 'senior' ones, forget to provide the context for their queries.

- There's a very wide variety of questions in the GV forum. On the one hand, they can be classified into different knowledge categories (spelling, adjectives, meaning, usage, etc.); on the other, they can be identified as more or less 'complex'.

- Concepts like "native speaker" or "level of proficiency" are difficult to define and give rise to some misunderstandings among foreros.​I hope this list of 'problems' might be useful in the current debate. By analysing the various reasons we may find some solutions.


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## Sidjanga

By the way, in this thread we talked about a related topic a few months ago (in Spanish).


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## anthodocheio

Cecilio said:


> they can be identified as more or less 'complex'.





Philippa said:


> My suggestions: a learners foro (for beginners and within-the-rules homework type queries), a work terminology foro (I seem to read threads about job titles and things like that all the time), a science foro (now I'd like that a lot ), a conversational/informal language foro. I know these aren't perfect, but maybe they'll help someone think of something better. I think we'll always end up with a general vocab one too.
> I don't like the idea of Eng-->Sp and Sp-->Eng separately, but I don't really know why!


 
I like very much those ideas! It seems to me that they can work. 
Most of us when asking a question we know if the question is very simple or if it is in a high level. At that point when asking we will know that we take our choice. 
Consider that there are also those that say "I don't speak a word of Spanish/English. Just tell me what this means."
Although easy to start, seems impossible to separate all the already existing threads..

And apart from that, we could make clearer, things like "Do some research before asking", "Make sure you provide all context necessary"... I don't know what more..

And also the other problem at the link of Sigianga is very important. But I will go say my idea there..

Saludos


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## cubaMania

This is an interesting thread, and although I would not go so far as to deem the Spanish/English General Vocabulary forum "useless", I agree that the problem described by Cecilio is getting progressively worse.

As long as we are brainstroming, I'll suggest that possibly the 80-20 rule (or even the 90-10 rule) may be at work here in the sense that 10% or 20% of the questions (or forum participants?) are creating 90% or 80% of the problem. For me when answering questions there is a definite fatigue factor caused by the large number of context-less questions, posts with no capitalization or punctuation, posts full of SMS or chatspeak, and other nonsense. I do search out posts with 0 answers, but in addition I hover the mouse over some posts with one or a few answers in case there is something I might be inclined to contribute. I generally skip most of the questions that are a mess, but I find I am answering fewer questions now because it is tiresome just hovering over the messy, non-rules-compliant posts when there is one after another after another after another after another. I find I now seldom continue past the first couple of pages because I'm so tired and annoyed by the time I've read a dozen or more garbage posts.

Might I suggest that it could help to take a stricter stance on complying with forum rules?
Should we have more moderators for Spanish/English so fewer crummy posts remain in the forum? Or should the current moderators stop begging people to follow the rules, and simply warn them once, then tell them to change their posting habits or have their questions deleted?
It might be worth a try to see if weeding out 10% or 20% garbage posts might reduce contributing member fatigue by 90% or 80%.


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## TrentinaNE

cubaMania said:


> Might I suggest that it could help to take a stricter stance on complying with forum rules?
> Should we have more moderators for Spanish/English so fewer crummy posts remain in the forum? Or should the current moderators stop begging people to follow the rules, and simply warn them once, then tell them to change their posting habits or have their questions deleted?
> It might be worth a try to see if weeding out 10% or 20% garbage posts might reduce contributing member fatigue by 90% or 80%.


All of these measures are under consideration. As always, it helps if more experienced forer@s DO NOT RESPOND to threads that violate rules and instead bring them to the moderators' attention through the Report-a-Post feature (the little red triangle). I *suspect* the SP mods will have no other short-term alternative but to become much more ruthless about deleting threads that do not comply, and banning forer@s who persist in violating lack-of-context and other rules.

I don't know how the rules could possibly be made any clearer or obvious. A link appears right below the text box when one is posting. Even as a very senior member, my screen displays:




> Rules for posting
> Search: forums, dictionary - Do not reply to threads with no context. Report them
> 
> 
> to moderators.
> - Suggest, politely, to newbies that they read the forum rules and forum stickies before posting.


directly below where I am typing. The problem is that no one can force another person to read these messages, nor to follow them.

Elisabetta


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## cirrus

Just a thought but I wonder whether how the language balance works - are there more people asking questions about English rather than Spanish?  I am not certain what the breakdown is and I wonder whether this affects the traffic and its quality.


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## aleCcowaN

"This is like deja vu all over again." - Yogi Berra

Maybe the GV forum is becoming a victim of its own success. With some 2,000 posts a day it's impossible to simply browse its content and pick a topic to answer, a topic you are skilled enough about, I mean. It is asked that everybody better should check the forum using the search engine prior to ask about something, thus avoiding some new traffic, but this is probably what contributes to make the latter content so little exciting as many people find the answers by doing this search and only ask when the subject is confusing (or really specialized, or even boring). 

Even worse, many people take a 2005 thread with 15 posts and add in #16 "pero lo que no me queda claro es...." forcing the willing forero to read a string of texts that doesn't relate with what is asked about. Look at this thread. What happened there? Look at the dates. I added a "living" example in the last post to what seemed to be a suggestion for the dictionary in the first one. This thread is more "orphan" than Annie.

I only can say that any improvement depends on the work of the moderator team and requires a knowledge about the forum system (not software but rather social issues) I couldn't imagine so I only can suggest, as it doesn't look a bad idea, to close every "old" thread and add a rule about quoting a  closed thread to reopen the subject.

Maybe it's time to relaunch the GV forum closing the actual one and using it as a reference. Maybe a "vanity forum" or "urban forum" just to move all those threads where it is asked a translation of an obscenity for the umptenth time. Maybe the solution is not to split the forum but make some doormat forums to sweep the garbage under (and get a bunch of psychopaths with suiciding tendencies to moderate them). You see, this is why good ideas are just good ideas but not practical ones.

There is something I know for sure: GV is not a "useless forum". I know there wasn't any intention of diminishing its value by naming this thread that way, but a legitimate intention of discussing about what was excellent and now seems to be just very good (add little kissing smileys, if you wish... chuik, chuik, chuik), but people who moderate it deserves to be saved of hearing any hint that sound like "all the work you do contributes to something useless" though they know the work is worth.


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## belén

Thanks for your ideas and brainstorming. As Trentina mentions, we are evaluating different possibilities and any ideas that you come up with are very welcome.


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## Philippa

aleCcowaN said:


> Maybe the GV forum is becoming a victim of its own success. With some 2,000 posts a day it's impossible to simply browse its content and pick a topic to answer, a topic you are skilled enough about, I mean. It is asked that everybody better should check the forum using the search engine prior to ask about something, thus avoiding some new traffic, but this is probably what contributes to make the latter content so little exciting as many people find the answers by doing this search and only ask when the subject is confusing (or really specialized, or even boring).


Ah yes, so true - well observed!! 


aleCcowaN said:


> There is something I know for sure: GV is not a "useless forum". I know there wasn't any intention of diminishing its value by naming this thread that way, but a legitimate intention of discussing about what was excellent and now seems to be just very good (add little kissing smileys, if you wish... chuik, chuik, chuik), but people who moderate it deserves to be saved of hearing any hint that sound like "all the work you do contributes to something useless" though they know the work is worth.


Ah huh, I agree, certainly not useless at all. It's only when you visit other forums (as I have recently - some new interests!) which have no sub forums at all or ones that aren't moderated enough so a topic in the wrong place gets left, silly thread titles so you can't really search them or tell what they're about when you browse through and that anyway veer off course and end up about something else, that you appreciate what we've got here. Thank you foreros and mods and Mike


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## lazarus78

I recently joined the WR but I noticed (and suffered from) the subject of this interesting discussion. Modestly, I would like to suggest something.

There are some threads considered "closed" (I guess by the Mods). Why not to include some kind of mark or signal, to be marked when the forero who posted the question, got a satisfactory answer? 

The threads will be always open (unless a moderator decides otherwise) and if somebody goes through it later and finds some mistake in a thread considered as "satisfactorily answered" (or whatever), hopefully will contribute to the discussion, and the first forero will receive an e-mail with the suggestion. 

It's true that very often the answers are not correct or could be improved, but we also have to admitt that is not rare that a thread is answered after only a few posts. 

Another idea would be to have two listings in the main forum. One for the recent threads and another for the "pending issues" or however you want to call it. 

That's it. Thank all of you for being there, guys. You are really exceptional! 

Warmest regards. 
Lazarus


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## anthodocheio

lazarus78 said:


> There are some threads considered "closed" (I guess by the Mods). Why not to include some kind of mark or signal, to be marked when the forero who posted the question, got a satisfactory answer?
> 
> The threads will be always open (unless a moderator decides otherwise) and if somebody goes through it later and finds some mistake in a thread considered as "satisfactorily answered" (or whatever), hopefully will contribute to the discussion, and the first forero will receive an e-mail with the suggestion.
> 
> It's true that very often the answers are not correct or could be improved, but we also have to admitt that is not rare that a thread is answered after only a few posts.


That's exactly my idea! Thanks Lazarus!


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## TrentinaNE

lazarus, your suggestion has been made before.  A thorough discussion can be found here.  

Elisabetta


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## lazarus78

Yes, well... surely there will be some inconveniences I am not aware of... Or more likely some brighter mind than mine will come up with a better suggestion 

Regards.

There it is! Thanks, Elisabetta, very interesting...  

(I'm disappointed with myself, I thought I had a brilliant idea! )

Regards everybody!


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## papillon

The idea of separating the GV into English-to-Spanish and vice versa has been tossed around a few times in the past, and rejected. The herculean task of sorting the 200 000 + threads was an important consideration. Additionally, and argumet was made, it is often impossible to classify a thread into one of these categories.

I seem to recall that as recently as a year ago, almost all threads in the Specialized Forum bore a "direction" tag:
ballscrew core [en=>es]
 flash cup [es-es=>en]
permanent ladders, wiring, air duct systems, gas fuel equipment...[en-gb=>es-es]

I found this tag extremely useful when answering people's question, myself having the preference for the [en=>sp] threads. I can't recall how this was done, but I believed that this was a button one pressed when opening a thread. I don't know why and when this practice was abandoned.

Could we do the same in the GV forum? I think ~85% of all threads are translation-related and can easily be classified into either of the two categories. Make the tag an obligatory field, but provide three choices:
1. en=>sp
2. sp=>en
3. Hard to say

A new thread would not be open until a selection is made. Allowing for human nature, 2-3 out of ten will press a random button, but I think this would help people re-focus their effort in helping others. 

A more distant idea would be for the sofware to then automatically move the thread to either the newly created E->S, S->E or OTHER forums. But this depends on Bulletin and is a bit more difficult.


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## stella_maris_74

Hi everybody!
May I add my humble suggestion, too?
The current and HUGE Spanish forum might be set "closed for posting" and left there as a consultation resource only. Then new subforums could be created, each specialized in some terminology categories as per Philippa's suggestion.
Posters would be asked to search the "big archive" first, and if they don't find out a satisfactory answer there, they would be free to ask their question in the specialized subforum of their choice.
So the new subforums would start fresh, the big archive would still be a helpful resource, and eventually the traffic and pressure would be diluted and the subforums would live their own lives.
Moderation should be very strong at least in the beginning, perhaps even summoning a few senior and trusted forumers to help and hit the red triangle like crazy in order to keep the subforums uncluttered, but I think that everything would be running smoother and be tidy and neat after a short while.

As per the subforums, maybe it would be even enough to create just a couple of  categories, such as "Conversation" and "Specialized/work related terminology". Perhaps that would be already enough to split the traffic and make everything more manageable.

Sorry for the lenghty post, however I hope that something in it will be contributory and useful!

Ciao 

dani


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## anthodocheio

TrentinaNE said:


> lazarus, your suggestion has been made before. A thorough discussion can be found here.
> 
> Elisabetta


 


lazarus78 said:


> There it is! Thanks, Elisabetta, very interesting...
> 
> (I'm disappointed with myself, I thought I had a brilliant idea! )
> 
> Regards everybody!


 
Hello again!

So we are left with the last post of the above mentioned thread as an answer? 
It's quite disappointing....

Cuchuflete, don't you see how useful this could be? I have suggested here the opposite, to mark not a solved thread but an unsolved. They stay unsolved sometimes for years...


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## cuchuflete

papillon said:


> T
> 
> I seem to recall that as recently as a year ago, almost all threads in the Specialized Forum bore a "direction" tag:
> ballscrew core [en=>es]
> flash cup [es-es=>en]
> permanent ladders, wiring, air duct systems, gas fuel equipment...[en-gb=>es-es]
> 
> I found this tag extremely useful when answering people's question, myself having the preference for the [en=>sp] threads. I can't recall how this was done, but I believed that this was a button one pressed when opening a thread. I don't know why and when this practice was abandoned.
> 
> Could we do the same in the GV forum?



Thanks for remembering this!  It hasn't been forgotten.  There were and are some technical issues applying this customized thread starter code to subsequent versions of the vB forum software.  Mike is trying to get it to work again.  It was originally intended to be tested in ST, and then, with appropriate changes, be used in other forums also.   That may be possible in the future.  Please be patient.  

Thanks.


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## chics

Meanwhile, interested people can write it by hand in the titles.


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## lazarus78

I just realize that in the dictionary page the link "Ask in the forums yourself" takes you directly to the GV forum. Actually, I have to admitt that it took me a long time to realize that some of my questions were grammar and not vocabulary-related issues.

I guess many foreros (as myself) just got used to use the GV as the one and only forum. And every day I see several threads that were moved by the Mods to the appropriate forum. 

Why not to offer in the dictionary search results page the option:

Ask in the forums yourself:
Vocabulary
Grammar 
Sólo Español
English only

In this way, obliging the foreros to think about the nature of their question, they will likely select the most appropriate forum, making easier the life of the moderators and I guess lighter the traffic in the GV.

Regards,

Lazarus


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## Countless_Individuals

Nice idea, Lazarus78.


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## ryba

Hello, everyone!

The traffic in *General Vocabulary / Vocabulario General* is just too big and after a few minutes you have to look for your thread five pages away and you find out no one actually answered, we've already made it clear.

Will splitting the forum help improve threads quality?

I'm positive it will, smaller forums will start living their own lives gaining the ambience indispensable for a forum to be an nice place.

Under one condition. The division and the section names have to be easy to understand for everyone, especially for the newbies and for the ones who "just dropped in to ask a question" and don't really fell like reading all the Rules / Normas stuff. When I was a n00b I once misplaced a thread putting a question about "Preterito Perfecto en Argentina" in *Grammar/Gramática, etc.* although I didn't intend to speak English nor get answered in English and I did it just because the forum had *Gramatica* in the title (I sholud've'd placed it in Sólo Espanol).

The section names need to be kept as clear as possible. No ambiguity allowed.

The big problem is that, as we all know, there are no clear limits between the spheres of life and branches of science and creating a good and easy understandable system is much more difficult than dividing the forum in Eng>Spa and Esp>Ing sections.

What possible cathegories come up to your mind?

By now, we've had a few proposals on how to divide the Vocabulary/Vocabulario section by cathegories. What I made out are more or less cathegories like (these are not names, just groups of cathegories):

 natural sciences (maths, physics, biology, chemistry, earth sciences, astronomy)

 business, economics, law, history and social sciences

 conversational language

Where to put things like "euphemisms for _Toilet_" or "almond-shaped eyes"? To the section with conversational language? Should we put "freshly squeezed orange juice" to the natural sciences? 



Countless_Individuals said:


> Nice idea, Lazarus78.


 
Yes, it is a very good idea and I think -to some extent- it would really help.


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## lazarus78

Thanks, C.I. and Ryba... I think it could be a good solution to help to put some order within the forums since the very moment that the forero wants to ask something. 

We'll see if the thinking minds, ie mods, like it...

Regards.
Lazarus.


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## juandiego

As it has been said before, I think advisable to rate the threads on a level of resolution scale in order to help whom is interested in contributing with their post, which one to enter and which one has been properly answered.

I don't know yet, whether this privilege would be for all the people that post in or only for the thread starter, but anyway, a good way to rule out the threads to which there's no need to go in.


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## Cecilio

I think the idea of using the little red triangle is a very useful one, and I've been doing it quite a lot recently. In the past, when I found a post which apparently broke some of the Wr rules I used to post a message explaining the rules, etc. to this forero but nowadays I definitely think it is much better to report those 'suspicious' posts and let the moderators do their job. They are more experienced in this task and they are supposed to have a more balanced view on how to deal with these situations.


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## ryba

juandiego said:


> As it has been said before, I think advisable to rate the threads on a level of resolution scale in order to help whom is interested in contributing with their post, which one to enter and which one has been properly answered.
> 
> I don't know yet, whether this privilege would be for all the people that post in or only for the thread starter, but anyway, a good way to rule out the threads to which there's no need to go in.



I think it is not a bad idea at all, however, if the thread starter were the only person to have the right to rate it, the system would be useful for the thread starter only and what satisfies the thread starter doesn't necessarily satisfy me, I may have more questions than the one who opened the thread.

I have always perceived these forums as a place where people discuss various linguistical problems (that are interesting for many members of our community, even not only for the ones who write posts!) rather than a place where people ask questions and are being answered. Many of my favorite threads weren't started by me.

It would make sense to make it possible for all the forum users to mark threads as "unresolved" but marking them "resolved" would always imply the risk that there is someone who would like to know something else / more and thus only a low percentage of threads would actually not be marked as "unresolved" making the system useless. But there is a big probability that I am wrong, maybe it would work well, hehe.


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## juandiego

*@ ryba*
Actually I think that it would be better if anyone that posts in, could rate the resolution level of the thread. Anyway, I don't see it to be such a big problem since although the thread would be rated es very resolved, if you see that people keep posting there, you'll quickly work out that something interesting should be happenning and you could satisfy your curiosity if you wish or not, but feeling laid-back or unconcernned because the original question reached a satisfactory answer.

Let's do not arise a problem for each solution.


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## alacant

Why not to offer in the dictionary search results page the option:

Ask in the forums yourself:
Vocabulary
Grammar 
Sólo Español
English only

In this way, obliging the foreros to think about the nature of their question, they will likely select the most appropriate forum, making easier the life of the moderators and I guess lighter the traffic in the GV.

Regards,

Lazarus[/quote]

Good morning,

I think this is a great idea, as I too spent a while just using the GV forum, until someone directed to another forum.

I have an idea which is maybe a bit dictatorial. I think that a lot of new members seem to think that this is a free translation service, or a personal dictionary. Maybe a shortened version of the rules could be shown at the top of the SP.EN forum, because I get the feeling that a lot of people don't go into the thread to find out what the rules are.

When all is said and done, the forum in question is a victim of its own success, and the fact that it covers 2 majority languages. I don't know if the Italian forum is more friendly and helpful, I have had a lot of help in this forum, and met a lot of nice people. 

Thank you for doing a great job, Alacant


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## frida-nc

We all probably think we may be bothering the moderators unnecessarily when we report, so we need training.  I think a moderator thread "Report These Posts" explaining the reporting policy would clarify things for those who are wondering what should be reported on, and maybe also discourage some violations.

I always try to link to the dictionary page or to the previous threads, for the sake of future researchers, even more than for the questioner--but no one needs three threads on something that is already in the dictionary. 

I find very few threads with two or three answers that are wrong and no one following up, and I think a research into, and analysis, of that kind of thread would be worthwhile.  Is it the question or the answers? Do questions from speakers of Spanish get answered mostly by speakers of Spanish? 

I also admit I don't like the idea of splitting up the forum, but the number of threads is a bit daunting.


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## Cecilio

frida-nc said:


> We all probably think we may be bothering the moderators unnecessarily when we report, so we need training.  I think a moderator thread "Report These Posts" explaining the reporting policy would clarify things for those who are wondering what should be reported on, and maybe also discourage some violations.



Very good point. Some guidelines about how to report, or encouraging foreros to report, would be useful.


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## lazarus78

I support very much the idea, because after some time using the WR Forums I would like to cooperate, and to do it on a smart way. 

Some days ago I was given some guidelines for reporting some threads. Here they are.

Regards to everybody.
Lazarus.


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## mkellogg

Hi everybody,

I just wanted to write in this thread to thank you all for your suggestions.  As many of you see, I've decided on a course of action.  Hopefully, it will work out well for us.  I'm pretty sure it will.  There were more suggestions in this thread that I liked.  I hope to get some of them implemented in the next few days.

Mike


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## juandiego

mkellogg said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I just wanted to write in this thread to thank you all for your suggestions.  As many of you see, I've decided on a course of action.  Hopefully, it will work out well for us.  I'm pretty sure it will.  There were more suggestions in this thread that I liked.  I hope to get some of them implemented in the next few days.
> 
> Mike


Is it too soon or you already know it is working? I'm stuck on the green forum. Sometimes I miss to find the usual people there, they should be else colour. But I get the impression that the green one is receiving enough amount of replies per thread, ya le he cogido cariño (¿como se dice esto en Ingles?)

Good luck with the changes, I'll try to be green-usefull.


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## chicalita

Cecilio said:


> The other day I posted three questions on the "Spanish-English: General Vocabulary" forum and the replies I got were very few, and mainly from non-native speakers of English. On the other hand, it seems that, in comparison, there are not so many native speakers of English willing to provide answers to these questions. If you take a look at the Spanish-Italian forum you'll see that the attitude there is completely different.
> 
> That's why I think that, unfortunately, the Spanish-English forums are becoming more and more useless. There are too many people in it and not all of them are quite aware of how they can really help people. The main point is that a native speaker of a given langugae should normally give advice on his/her own mother tongue, unless it is very clear to them that they can give an interesting answer about a language that's not their mother tongue. I suppose maybe some guidelines about these things could be helpful.
> 
> In my opinion this is a serious problem, we are reaching a critical stage.


 

This is an interesting point, I've frequently offered english help to non-english speakers only to have non-english speakers disregard the comments and even say that they are incorrect. I can see this happening on grammar points because often someone learning knows more of the rules, but on points of culture and common usage? I've chalked it up to over-enthusiasm but it seems against the point to disregard comments of the native speakers.

P.S. I don't know where to go with this - I tried to post in Grammar, but twice was asked to choose a thread. I had from the get go, but 2 more times was asked. Please tell me it won't be like this forever.

And if anyone's asking, and I can't find that they are but here goes anyway...I understand the 'why' of breaking the Vocab forum up but placing posts indiscriminately and randomly? 
So now we can only have our posts exposed to whoever happens to be in that particular forum instead of the normally wide range of views a post normally gets?

Can't you at least break them up into smaller subject headings, like things about work, family life, romance, friendship, sex, politics, culture (vocab not the subject of)? I know it wouldb e more time consuming but the 'random' seems tobe more restricting and isolating than anything.

just my 2 cents.


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## Cecilio

In this thread we have pointed out various possible sources of problems in the WR forums, and these problems are in many cases connectec with the foreros' attitude and habits. No matter how we change the layout of the ES-SE forums, there will always be things can we can improve. For example, this thing: I have recently oberved that it is becoming quite normal to answer a post by quoting it and then adding a smiley, like this:



Or even this:



Or maybe with some comment like:

_OK_

Is that a good thing to do? Is it OK to send a post without words?

I am convinced that there are al lot of foreros trying to get as many posts as possible, maybe because they want to have a high figure in their profile. I think that these posts (I would call them 'agreeing posts' or 'nodding posts') should not be accepted, there should be some rule against them. 

And as usual, all these problems become worse in the SE forums.


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## alacant

Cecilio said:


> The other day I posted three questions on the "Spanish-English: General Vocabulary" forum and the replies I got were very few, and mainly from non-native speakers of English. On the other hand, it seems that, in comparison, there are not so many native speakers of English willing to provide answers to these questions. If you take a look at the Spanish-Italian forum you'll see that the attitude there is completely different.
> 
> That's why I think that, unfortunately, the Spanish-English forums are becoming more and more useless. There are too many people in it and not all of them are quite aware of how they can really help people. The main point is that a native speaker of a given langugae should normally give advice on his/her own mother tongue, unless it is very clear to them that they can give an interesting answer about a language that's not their mother tongue. I suppose maybe some guidelines about these things could be helpful.


 
I swore I wouldn't get involved in this discussion again, but the beaky bird is squawking. And this is what the bird says: 

It doesn't matter where people are born, it doesn't matter where they migrate to, the bird has had great advice regarding English from people whose first language is Spanish (first language, not native) and the bird is flattered to have received private queries regarding Spanish from others who use it as their first language. Very flattered!

What about our catalán friends, and our scandinavian friends who are perefectly bi and tri-lingual, will they have to decide what their "native" tongue is before answering.

If this doesn't stop the bird will fly away!!! and that would be a sad state of affairs.

With respect where it is due, Alacant


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## Canolista

May I add my twopenn'orth to this debate? I was really disappointed to log on the other day after some absence from the forum to see the coloured divisions in the Sp-En forum. I agree with the comments about dilution, not withstanding the improved speed of response and more time to watch threads developing. I have also just discovered the My Threads link, and that has really helped me keep in touch with the discussions. But I really don't like it so much anymore because of this split - I never know which forum to look at - there could be something really interesting I'm missing in the ones I'm not looking at!!

The great thing about WR is its accessibility for new learner and old hand alike (and I fall somewhere in between). I like being able to help others with the simple stuff as much as I enjoy the more challenging threads, and some of the interesting discussions like the recent one on "what's in a name - Shakespeare". My policy is to limit myself normally to giving advice in my native tongue (luckily, Alacant, I don't have the Scandanavian problem - wish I did!) and only occasionally, when I am very sure of the answer, answering a query about English to Spanish. That doesn't make me exemplary or anything, but it is just safer. I can usually tell if a non-English speaker's suggestion to my query about a Spanish phrase needs a pinch of salt, as I can if it is really spot on. I recently started a thread which had lots of helpful suggestions and ideas, focused on the question, from older and newer hands, but the outcome did not solve my specific problem, so I need to keep doing the research. So the quality of the contributers is not really the issue, it's about using WR just like any other tool - understanding its limitations and celebrating its strengths.

I would like to make a strong recommendation about splitting up into Sp-En and En-Sp - I do find it frustrating when posts appear to be one and are in fact the other - and the mouse hovering facility often turns off more quickly than I can discern which is which. I saw Mike's comments about the suffix on messages and agree with the postee who suggested we do that for ourselves anyway, and I will. Still, it would be so much better to have this split - and if I want to engage with threads one way, I can choose.

I do like the option to have a combined view. I do tend to look first at threads with "0". I am trying to contribute more than I ask. I am grateful to the moderators for all their work - keep it up, guys and guyesses!  And now I'm going to go and get a life!!!!!


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## chicalita

alacant said:


> Originally Posted by *Cecilio*
> 
> 
> The other day I posted three questions on the "Spanish-English: General Vocabulary" forum and the replies I got were very few, and mainly from non-native speakers of English. On the other hand, it seems that, in comparison, there are not so many native speakers of English willing to provide answers to these questions. If you take a look at the Spanish-Italian forum you'll see that the attitude there is completely different.


 
This relates to comments made by others including myself regarding advice.  More often than not I offer advice regarding English only to have non-native speakers tell the original poster that I am mistaken, or that they are more correct.  It's discouraging (to say the least, and I am saying the least) and makes me very wary of offeringsuggestions knowing they'll be readily disregarded.

However, I doubt this has little to do with the function of the forum as much as the function of human nature.


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## ryba

chicalita said:


> So now we can only have our posts exposed to whoever happens to be in that particular forum instead of the normally wide range of views a post normally gets?
> 
> Can't you at least break them up into smaller subject headings, like things about work, family life, romance, friendship, sex, politics, culture (vocab not the subject of)? I know it would e more time consuming but the 'random' seems tobe more restricting and isolating than anything.
> 
> just my 2 cents.



I support and back fully what you said. Let's create some clear and efficient thematical division and let the new sections live their own NATURAL lives, not ARTIFICIAL ones. We've all agreed a forum needs what is called _ambiance_ and it can be created only introducing a system that is clear, logical and easy to understand (colors? por favor...). The brain likes order.

Using the combined view is a good solution but only partially. Introducing it is like saying:

"Well, you're right, the problems you're discussing do exist but you can always use the combined view and everything will *look** just like before the split."

*** just "look", the problem Canolista mentioned in my first quotation remains. It would no longer exist if EVERYONE used the combined view, but that would simply mean NOTHING's changed.




Canolista said:


> But I really don't like it so much anymore because of this split - I never know which forum to look at - there could be something really interesting I'm missing in the ones I'm not looking at!!


That's the point. It is psychology, the mental aspect of the issue.



Canolista said:


> I am grateful to the moderators for all their work - keep it up, guys and guyesses!


Me too. My criticism is just me trying to help.


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## frida-nc

I like the combined view.  It isn't quite the same; it can't be sorted.
It would be wonderful if the software could be more flexible and allow users to "bump or not bump" a thread.  Obviously, what displaces threads faster is some worthwhile activities many of us engage in: resurrecting unresolved threads; thanking people; saying "You're welcome."  (I've often harbored the illusion that people would give more thanks if they didn't feel guilty about taking up the front page with something only one person or a couple of people really needed to see.)
Arguably, what should put a thread on the front page is that it is unresolved.  Browsing the combined view, or searching the dictionary or the forums, could satisfy the need to learn from the answered threads, which is part of the reason all of us are here.
Have a good weekend, everyone.


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