# Difference between Catalan and Spanish "ll" sounds



## Pinairun

Demurral said:


> Well...If my suggestion to use "d'you" as a "way" to pronounce Batlló hasn't created agreement, shouldn't yours Pinairun. Neither Spanish nor english have the catalan LL sound.
> 
> see you!


 
Is there any difference between catalan "ll" and "spanish" "ll" sounds?


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## Linnets

Pinairun said:


> Is there any difference between catalan "ll" and "spanish" "ll" sounds?


 
Generally no, but in some Spanish variants /ʎ/ is pronounced /j/ (_yeísmo_).


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## Pinairun

Linnets said:


> Generally no, but in some Spanish variants /ʎ/ is pronounced /j/ (_yeísmo_).


 

Yes, I know.
But if it is "yeísmo", we aren't speaking about real spanish "ll" sound.


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## Linnets

Pinairun said:


> Yes, I know.
> But if it is "yeísmo", we aren't speaking about real spanish "ll" sound.


 
Let's say that in "RAE Spanish" and Standard Catalan the two sounds are identical.


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## Pinairun

Linnets said:


> Let's say that in "RAE Spanish" and Standard Catalan the two sounds are identical.


 

Thank you very much. I agree with you.

Cheers


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## Demurral

I said that about spanish without having the ll catalan sound because, as far as I know, the spanish ll sound have already disappeared. Is that true?

Hope somebody knows the answer! Thanks!


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## .Jordi.

Hi!

In this thread I've found some information about this sound. If it's true what they're saying, there is only a very small group of people which conserves this sound in their pronunciation. You may revive the other thread and ask to see if anything changed since then .


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## Pinairun

Demurral said:


> I said that about spanish without having the ll catalan sound because, as far as I know, the spanish ll sound have already disappeared. Is that true?
> 
> Hope somebody knows the answer! Thanks!


 
No, it isn't true. It's *at risk of disappearing *because the "yeístas" are on the rise. What a pity!  
But I hope that these beautiful spanish words will never change: _Paella_, _la lluvia de estrellas, el llanto de las doncellas_, _chiquillo..._ and why not, _la casa_ _Batlló_.


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## Linnets

.Jordi. said:


> If it's true what they're saying, there is only a very small group of people which conserves this sound in their pronunciation.


 
Probably, but I think the RAE recommendations still do not accept _yeísmo._


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## Demurral

http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/spanish/frameset.html

look for them! Even me, a native speaker hasn't succeeded in learning those sounds in eighteen, could "learn" to differenciate them with only a single look in this page!.

i'm sure it will help!


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## Cracker Jack

Pinairun said:


> Is there any difference between catalan "ll" and "spanish" "ll" sounds?


 
Yes. Catalan ll es like Spanish li. While Spanish ll is like y.


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## Linnets

Cracker Jack said:


> Yes. Catalan ll es like Spanish li. While Spanish ll is like y.


 

This is the actual situation:

Catalan ll [ʎ];
Spanish ll (traditional) [ʎ];
Spanish ll (modern) [j];
Spanish li plus vowel (traditional or modern) [lj].


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## Pinairun

.Jordi. said:


> Hi!
> 
> In this thread I've found some information about this sound. If it's true what they're saying, there is only a very small group of people which conserves this sound in their pronunciation. You may revive the other thread and ask to see if anything changed since then .


 
I'm part of this "very small group". My family name begins with "Ll" and I've to wrestle day by day with the expanding "yeísmo".

After reading the thread you've suggested I feel a sample worth protecting!


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## Outsider

In the vast majority of varieties of Spanish, "ll" is pronounced *[ʝ]* (not the same as [j]).

Catalan "ll", from what I know, is usually *[ʎ]*.

P.S. Otros hilos sobre la pronunciación española de este dígrafo:

Prounounciation - LL
Pronunciation - ll, y

Buscando la palabra clave "yeísmo" se encontrarán muchos más.


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## Linnets

Outsider said:


> In the vast majority of varieties of Spanish, "ll" is pronounced [ʝ] (not the same as [j]).
> 
> Catalan "ll", from what I know, is usually [ʎ].


 
Yes, but, in modern Spanish, also initial and intervocalic y are pronounced [ʝ].


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## Pinairun

Thank you all for your interesting comments.
I'm non-specialist and I can't recognize a sound by means of signs. 
But  
http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/spanish/frameset.html
(laterales), suggested by Demurral (in Post 10), is a very useful attachment.
That's the way I pronounce "ll", a lateral, palatal, fricative and voiced letter, and I would like to keep it so.
 It would be impossible to get wrong and mistake "rallo" (a grater)  for "rayo" (lightning); or "rallar" (to grate) for "rayar" (to scratch); or "halla" (he finds) for "haya" (he had, subjunctive); or "olla" (a pot) for "hoya" (a hollow); or "callado" (to be quiet) for "cayado" (shepherd stick) and more... 
I envy Catalans their "ll" and I wonder: Is there another language in the world using "ll" sound?
 
Cheers.


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## Linnets

Pinairun said:


> I envy Catalans their "ll" and I wonder: Is there another language in the world using "ll" sound?


 
Of course: Italian for example, where it is written _gli_. Other languages: Basque (written _ll_ or _il_), Aragonese, Romansh, Gascon, Portuguese (written_ lh_), Serbian, Quechua, Mapungdun, some indigenous Australian languages.


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## Ajura

Pronouncing l in y position is the best way to pronounce them.


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## Pinairun

Linnets said:


> Of course: Italian for example, where it is written _gli_. Other languages: Basque (written _ll_ or _il_), Aragonese, Romansh, Gascon, Portuguese (written_ lh_), Serbian, Quechua, Mapungdun, some indigenous Australian languages.


 

Oh, yes. Next to me is "euskera" (basque) and its "mutila" (the boy) , illargia (the moon), illaun (lazy), etc.
I begin to hear them as "mutiya", iyarguia", iyaun. May be it's from "euskaldunberriak" (new basque-speakers), who don't take care of sounds. But, unfortunately, it's coming true.

My question was wrong, I'll put it another way.
I really wanted to know if these other languages change the same as spanish does: We've lost "v" long ago turning into "b" , and now "ll" is going into "y". 

Is there "yeísmo", por example, in italian language?

Thanks a lot, I'm curious to know.
I beg you to excuse my horrible english.


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## modus.irrealis

In French, the ll sound has become the y sound, which you can see from the spelling: in _fille, famille,_ _billet, muraille, feuille, ail_, etc there is a y sound represented (more or less) by the _ill_.


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## Linnets

Pinairun said:


> My question was wrong, I'll put it another way.
> I really wanted to know if these other languages change the same as spanish does: We've lost "v" long ago turning into "b" , and now "ll" is going into "y".
> 
> Is there "yeísmo", por example, in italian language?


 
Only in some dialects, such as Romanesco (the dialect of Rome); of course people from Rome can use the feature also when they speak Italian. In Tuscany there's no clear tendency: in past times _gli_ passed to _(g)gh_ (geminate) or similar, but some young people have started to imitate the Romans, since their dialect is well represented on TV shows. In the North, _gli_ usually has a sound similar to_ li_:the_ l_ is slightly palatalized but not as much as _gli_ in standard Italian_._


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## Pinairun

Linnets said:


> Only in some dialects, such as Romanesco (the dialect of Rome); of course people from Rome can use the feature also when they speak Italian. In Tuscany there's no clear tendency: in past times _gli_ passed to _(g)gh_ (geminate) or similar, but some young people have started to imitate the Romans, since their dialect is well represented on TV shows. In the North, _gli_ usually has a sound similar to_ li_:the_ l_ is slightly palatalized but not as much as _gli_ in standard Italian_._


 


Thank you very much. That's what I feared.

Thank you again


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## Miguel Antonio

Linnets said:


> Of course: Italian for example, where it is written _gli_. Other languages: Basque (written _ll_ or _il_), Aragonese, Romansh, Gascon, Portuguese (written_ lh_), Serbian, Quechua, Mapungdun, some indigenous Australian languages.


Galician language also has the sound "ll", and it lacks the letter "y", by the way.


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## jartesm

En ambas lenguas ocurre algo parecido: en unas zonas se pronuncia bien (ll) y en otras no: como una y (castellano) o i (claramente vocálica, en catalán).
Así, es normal en Girona o en Mallorca oir la pronunciación como -i-.
En castellano, hay leoneses, vascos, catalanes, vallisoletanos... que pronuncian la -ll- con su sonido original (no como -y-). Esa pronunciación correcta puede oirse incluso en Hispanoamérica, p.e. en el norte argentino (yo la oí en Misiones hace poco).
En ocasiones, en una misma zona, pueden coexistir ambas pronunciaciones:
- Por ejemplo, en Sant Hilari Sacalm (Les Guilleries, Girona), se pronuncia "poll" o "poi" (para la palabra "poll"), según se trate de "pollo" o de "piojo".
- En Barcelona, la -ll- por lo general se ha mantenido bien pronunciada, pero la palabra "cella" siempre se ha dicho "ceia".


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## Demurral

jartesm said:


> En Barcelona, la -ll- por lo general se ha mantenido bien pronunciada, pero la palabra "cella" siempre se ha dicho "ceia".



En este último año he empezado a cruzarme con mucha gente catalano parlante que no era de Barcelona, i en mucho casos, he sido dicho todo lo contrario. Me han dicho muchas veces que los barceloneses hemos perdido en gran parte el sonido LL, no solo en la palabra cella.^^
(con una amiga de Vilabella(Tarragona), hemos incluso tenido malentendidos por culpa de palabras que ella pronunciaba con una "LL" perfecta y en las que nosotros le enchufabamos una "i" o una "Y" mestiza).

Hasta luego!


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## jartesm

Això vol dir clarament una cosa: entre els 50 anys que tinc jo i els 19 de Demurral, alguna cosa hi ha passat: degradació fonètica sobretot per la influència dels castellanoparlants, que quan parlen català (si el parlen) i empelten d'esma l'anomenat "yeísmo". És evident que la immigració a Barcelona i rodalies no és precisament balear ni gironina, sinó del sud d'Espanya i Sudamèrica, entre els tenen com a llengua materna el castellà. A Andalusia no és freqüent que la -ll- conservi el so primigeni. Ara el debat és un altre: què entendrem per parla barcelonina? la dels que hem nascut a Barcelona de família també barcelonina (si més no, catalanoparlant) o la suma-barreja de totes les parles que estan coexistint en aquest moment?


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## S.G.

I sometimes find it hard to produce [ʎ] sound correctly depending on where it lies in the word and my "ll" ends up sounding more like the "normal" Spanish pronunciation.  Would this cause me a lot of troubles or will people overlook it when speaking to me?


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## ernest_

S.G. said:


> I sometimes find it hard to produce [ʎ] sound correctly depending on where it lies in the word and my "ll" ends up sounding more like the "normal" Spanish pronunciation.  Would this cause me a lot of troubles or will people overlook it when speaking to me?



Not much of a problem. I talked to an Austrian who pronounced "fulla" as "fulia", and it sounded odd but it's not like I couldn't understand him. However, I would recommend to you not to say "li", but "y" if can't do a proper [ʎ] sound, because we are more used to this pronunciation.


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## chics

Well, I don't know if I'd understand "fulia", depending on the context and if I don't know that I'm talking with a person that always says "li" when he should say "ll". However, I think in Barcelona he wouldn't have comprehension problems if he says "fuia".

In Barcelona there're maybe people who doesn't pronounce "ll" but (I'm in my 30's) there's an interesting fenomenon. Most (or at least a lot) of people that says "y" or even "i" when intervocalic "ll" are able to pronounce perfect "ll" when it's at theend of a silable. I haven't done social studies about it but I think (and I've heard a lot of mothers teaching their children) that's a little because another sund at the end of a silable, like "anell", for example, sounds _charnego_ whereas we can relax in other words with begining "ll", like "llapis".


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## S.G.

chics said:


> Well, I don't know if I'd understand "fulia", depending on the context and if I don't know that I'm talking with a person that always says "li" when he should say "ll". However, I think in Barcelona he wouldn't have comprehension problems if he says "fuia".
> 
> In Barcelona there're maybe people who doesn't pronounce "ll" but (I'm in my 30's) there's an interesting fenomenon. Most (or at least a lot) of people that says "y" or even "i" when intervocalic "ll" are able to pronounce perfect "ll" when it's at theend of a silable. I haven't done social studies about it but I think (and I've heard a lot of mothers teaching their children) that's a little because another sund at the end of a silable, like "anell", for example, sounds _charnego_ whereas we can relax in other words with begining "ll", like "llapis".



Interesting!  Thanks for the info.


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## Rookie406

If I can help a little I try to explain how to pronunciate the 'original' ll in catalan (and in catalan language, 'cause my english vocabulaire isn't so extens to be as correct as I want. If anyone can translate, maybe this would be a little help. Thanks).

La l es pronuncia amb la punta de la llengua al paladar. (Tothom la sap pronunciar, no ?)

Doncs la ll es pronuncia amb la mitja llengua anterior enganxada al paladar, fent mens pressió a la punta que amb la pronunciació de la l, i traslladant tota aquesta pressió més forta a la part immediata entre el darrera de la punta i una 4ª part de la mateixa.

( Ho sento, ja sé que semblen matemàtiques o física, però, fixant-me amb com pronuncio la ll -ho he fet a l'antiga desde petit- és la manera més acurada que tinc de descriure-ho ) 

De fet, el so ll, té una lleugera dificultat de pronunciació. És una mica com la rr espanyola/catalana per als nens petits o un francófon d'origen.


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## S.G.

One more question, don't the people who speak the Valencian dialect use the Spanish "ll" [ʝ] instead of the aforementioned "ll" [ʎ]?


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## ernest_

S.G. said:


> One more question, don't the people who speak the Valencian dialect use the Spanish "ll" [ʝ] instead of the aforementioned "ll" [ʎ]?



Apparently, yes.


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## Rookie406

Rookie406 said:


> If I can help a little I try to explain how to pronunciate the 'original' ll in catalan (and in catalan language, 'cause my english vocabulaire isn't so extens to be as correct as I want. If anyone can translate, maybe this would be a little help. Thanks).
> 
> *La l es pronuncia amb la punta de la llengua al paladar. (Tothom la sap pronunciar, no ?)*
> 
> Doncs la ll es pronuncia amb la mitja llengua anterior enganxada al paladar, fent mens pressió a la punta que amb la pronunciació de la l, i traslladant tota aquesta pressió més forta a la part immediata entre el darrera de la punta i una 4ª part de la mateixa.
> 
> ( Ho sento, ja sé que semblen matemàtiques o física, però, fixant-me amb com pronuncio la ll -ho he fet a l'antiga desde petit- és la manera més acurada que tinc de descriure-ho )
> 
> De fet, el so ll, té una lleugera dificultat de pronunciació. És una mica com la rr espanyola/catalana per als nens petits o un francófon d'origen.


 
Em cito a mi mateix  perquè acabo d'adonar-me que tampoc pronuncio exactament igual la *l* catalana i la *l* castellana.

Amb la *l* castellana es ben bé la punta de la llengua que pressiona lleugerament el paladar.
Amb la *l *catalana la pressió és més forta i de una porció lleugerament superior de llengua.

M'estic embolicant o també us hi havieu fixat ?


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## Samaruc

ernest_ said:


> Originally Posted by S.G.
> One more question, don't the people who speak the Valencian dialect use the Spanish "ll" [ʝ] instead of the aforementioned "ll" [ʎ]?
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, yes.
Click to expand...


Oops... Not at all. In Valencia, the "ll" digraph sounds consistently as [ʎ], in any position of the word. There can be people pronouncing it as [ʝ], but this is not the general trend... Sorry for correcting... 

Salut!


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