# Demonstratives to definitive articles - Latin to Romance



## Beachxhair

I've read that the definite articles in Romance languages descended from demonstratives in Latin. How did this occur? How did demonstratives evolve to be definite articles in the modern Romance languages? Were there no definite articles in Latin?

Thanks everyone


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## berndf

Same as in English. _The _is derived from the masculine and feminine forms of the demonstrative _se_ and _that_ from the neuter form. I.e. _the_ and _that_ is essentially the same word. In German, which as retained the gender forms, _der/die/das _(_das _and_ that _is the same word, just two sound shifts (_th>d_ and _t>zz>s_) away) can be a demonstrative and an article. In spoken language, the difference is just stress (unstressed=article, stressed=demonstrative).

The development in Romance is essentially the same. Latin _ille_, the origin of Romance articles, means _that_.

Articles developed rather late in IE languages. Greek had them already in antiquity. In Romance and Germanic languages they developed only in the Middle Ages. In Late Latin (4th & 5th centuries) there are already first signs of _ille _developing into a definite article. In English demonstrative and article started to separate with the transition from Old to Middle English and the loss of grammatical gender.


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## francisgranada

Interestingly, in Sardinian the definite article is _su _(m) and _sa _(f). They derive from the Latin _ipsum/__ipsa_.


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## olaszinho

francisgranada said:


> Interestingly, in Sardinian the definite article is _su _(m) and _sa _(f). They derive from the Latin _ipsum/__ipsa_.



This kind of definite articles can be found not only in Sardian but also in some parts of Catalonia, particularly in the Balearic Islands. It's called _article salat: es, sa, sos, _ses and so on. They also come from the Latin_ ipse/ipsum/ipsa/ipsos, ipsas. _On the other hand, only Italian (in addition to a few southern Italian dialects) retains the personal pronouns _esso/essa/essi/esse_ coming from_ ispum/ipsa.
_


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## Beachxhair

olaszinho said:


> This kind of definite articles can be found not only in Sardian but also in some parts of Catalonia, particularly in the Balearic Islands. It's called _article salat: es, sa, sos, _ses and so on. They also come from the Latin_ ipse/ipsum/ipsa/ipsos, ipsas. _On the other hand, only Italian (in addition to a few southern Italian dialects) retains the personal pronouns _esso/essa/essi/esse_ coming from_ ispum/ipsa.
> 
> _


  What did Latin _ipsum _mean? Thanks


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## berndf

Beachxhair said:


> What did Latin _ipsum _mean? Thanks


Moderator note: Please use a dictionary for such questions ( e.g. here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ipse )


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## Beachxhair

berndf said:


> Moderator note: Please use a dictionary for such questions (e.g. here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ipse)


 Sorry, thank you.


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## Cenzontle

Beachxhair, I don't know if you have this in Brit.Eng., but I often hear it in Am.Eng.:  the demonstrative "this" used as an indefinite article ("a"/"an").
An informal narration might go like this:
"I was in the library yesterday and, like, youknow, looking for *this *book?"  (No book visible in the immediate surroundings; boldface does not mean stress.)
Translation in standard English: "I was in the library yesterday looking for *a *book [whose identity is known to me, but not to you, being hereby introduced into the discourse]."
Continued informal narration:  "And *this *guy walks up to me and says..."  (Again, "this" is unstressed; "this guy" sounds like "the sky".)
Standard English:  "And *an *adult male approached me and said..."


For English-speakers familiar with this process, I think it can help with an intuitive appreciation for how a demonstrative can become an article.  
In the English case, it's the *proximal* "this", rather than the *distal *"that", and it's the *indefinite *article rather than the *definite* article.  
The proximal demonstrative "this" implies something "close to me"—as the "book" and the "guy" above are, figuratively, in *my *consciousness (but not yours).


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## Cenzontle

> On the other hand, only Italian (in addition to a few southern Italian dialects) retains the personal pronouns _esso/essa/essi/esse coming from ispum/ipsa._


Olaszinho, by "personal pronouns", do you mean that these forms are used as "he", "she", and "they"?


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## olaszinho

Cenzontle said:


> Olaszinho, by "personal pronouns", do you mean that these forms are used as "he", "she", and "they"?



Yes, I do.  I would say that _esso/essa_ are more similar to English subject pronoun* it, *to be more precise*.*


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## merquiades

olaszinho said:


> Yes, I do.  I would say that _esso/essa_ are more similar to English subject pronoun* it, *to be more precise*.*



Really, in normal speech?

So,  _essa è di Roma_ instead of _lei è di Roma_?

In Spanish, I suppose you could say _esa es de Roma_ but that has a very strong pejorative sense.  I can really see you don't care for her and what she is doing.  You're downgrading her. _ ¿Adónde va esa ahora?_


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## olaszinho

merquiades said:


> Really, in normal speech?
> 
> So,  _essa è di Roma_ instead of _lei è di Roma_?
> 
> In Spanish, I suppose you could say _esa es de Roma_ but that has a very strong pejorative sense.  I can really see you don't care for her and what she is doing.  You're downgrading her. _ ¿Adónde va esa ahora?_[/QUOTE
> 
> Hola Merquiades.
> 
> Te ruego que leas lo que voy a poner a continuación: lo he  sacado del diccionario Treccani, se refiere al pronombre sujeto de tercera persona singular:
> 
> *ESSO- ESSA1.* Serve a richiamare un nome precedentemente espresso, spec. di animale o cosa, più raram. di persona, tranne che nelle forme plur. _essi_, _esse_ che sostituiscono normalmente i pron. disusati _eglino_, _elleno_ (plur. di _egli_). Può avere funzione di soggetto e di complemento: _essi credono_; _qualcuna di esse_; _Com ’om che torna a la perduta strada_, _Che ’nfino ad essa li pare ire in vano_ (Dante). Nel linguaggio amministr., _chi per esso_ (ma oggi più com. _chi per lui_), chi ne fa le veci: _il titolare o chi per esso_; _la giustificazione dev’essere firmata dai genitori o da chi per essi_.
> 
> No existe algo semejante en las otras lenguas latinas: español él/ella; francés il/elle; portugués ele/ela; catalán ell/ella. Estos pronombres se usan tanto para referirse a personas como a objetos, en cambio en italiano hay dos series de pronombres sujetos de tercera persona singual y plural:
> 
> Para referirse a personas:
> egli, ella, empleados en el estilo literario.
> Lui, lei en el habla cotidiana
> 
> Para referirse a objetos o, muy rara vez, a animales:
> 
> esso/essa.
> Por ejemplo:
> "la situazione economica è gravissima, essa potrà determinare molta disoccupazione" en este ejemplo nunca se podría usar el pronombre "lei"
> 
> En un documental sobre animales salvajes se diría:
> 
> "il lupo si trova soprattutto nelle foreste del nord Europa, esso si nutre di....." También en este caso no se emplearía "lui "
> Por ejemplo, sólo se usa lui/lei al hablar de una mascota.
> 
> P.S. Se me ha olvidado añadir un comentario. El pronombre feminino “essa” se puede utilizar en lugar de ella en literatura, tal como en el ejemplo de Merquiades. Además,  se usa muy a menudo en varios dialectos.


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## bearded

In English, another meaning of 'that' (I suppose in slang or familiar language) is 'so' before an adjective.  Example:  ''why don't you learn Spanish? It's not that dfficult' (instead of 'so difficult).  I would like to learn from native speakers 1) whether it is really slang or it can be admitted also in standard English, and 2) whether it is mainly AE or BE,too. For your kind replies I thank you in advance.


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## Stoggler

bearded man said:


> In English, another meaning of 'that' (I suppose in slang or familiar language) is 'so' before an adjective.  Example:  ''why don't you learn Spanish? It's not that dfficult' (instead of 'so difficult).  I would like to learn from native speakers 1) whether it is really slang or it can be admitted also in standard English, and 2) whether it is mainly AE or BE,too. For your kind replies I thank you in advance.



For question number 2, it is certainly used often in BE; I can't confirm if it's used much in AE though (will have to wait for AE speakers to confirm one way or another)

As for question 1, I wouldn't say it was slang at all, it's rather common really.  I would *probably* avoid it in formal writing but I can't say I would particularly avoid it if I were speaking in a formal setting.  In all honesty, it's not a usage I've given much thought to before - I can't say I've ever heard anyone tell anyone off for using it, or come across its usage in style guides or a publication like Fowler's.


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## Cenzontle

I would echo everything Stoggler said about "that" used to mean "so" (or sometimes even "very", as in "it's not that difficult").
I've never heard of any disapproval of its use in speech, and it's natural to people of all educational backgrounds.
Like Stoggler, I would avoid it in formal writing.


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## olaszinho

In Spanish, I suppose you could say _esa es de Roma_ but that has a very strong pejorative sense.  I can really see you don't care for her and what she is doing.  You're downgrading her. _ ¿Adónde va esa ahora?

_Spanish _ese __ése, esa ésa, esos ésos, esas ésas _are demonstrative adjectives and pronouns (English this/that/these/those), while Italian _esso/essa/essi/esse _are subject personal pronouns (English it, she, they). Dispite their phonetic similarity, they should not be mixed up.


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## francisgranada

olaszinho said:


> In Spanish, I suppose you could say _esa es de Roma_ but that has a very strong pejorative sense ....


Substituting personal pronouns with demonstrative ones has typically a pejorative sense in many languages, as far as I know (including my mother tongue and some Slavic languages). However, not "automatically", it depends also on the context (as almost everything ...). 

I have two questions: 

1. How would be interpreted in Italian a simple phrase like "Essa è di Roma", speaking about a girl or woman. Or such phrase is impossible? (I understand the "normal" usage of esso/essa, so my question is not about this   ...)

2. How was the corresponding pronoun used in Latin? Did it have the sense of personal pronoun, as well?


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## olaszinho

francisgranada said:


> Substituting personal pronouns with demonstrative ones has typically a pejorative sense in many languages, as far as I know (including my mother tongue and some Slavic languages). However, not "automatically", it depends also on the context (as almost everything ...).
> 
> I have two questions:
> 
> 1. How would be interpreted in Italian a simple phrase like "Essa è di Roma", speaking about a girl or woman. Or such phrase is impossible? (I understand the "normal" usage of esso/essa, so my question is not about this   ...)
> 
> 2. How was the corresponding pronoun used in Latin? Did it have the sense of personal pronoun, as well?



We have the same usage in Italian: "quella lì/là è di Roma", in Tuscan or literary Italian: "Codesta è di Roma", with a pejorative sense, like in Spanish and the other languages you have mentioned.

 I have already answered your question number one: it sounds literary, regional, it is  accepted by standard grammar, though. I could even say a sentence like that, but some other Italians might have a different perception.

As for  question number two, I don't know, actually. They might have been used in Vulgar Latin spoken in the Italian Peninsula.


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## merquiades

olaszinho said:


> merquiades said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really, in normal speech?
> 
> So,  _essa è di Roma_ instead of _lei è di Roma_?
> 
> In Spanish, I suppose you could say _esa es de Roma_ but that has a very strong pejorative sense.  I can really see you don't care for her and what she is doing.  You're downgrading her. _ ¿Adónde va esa ahora?_[/QUOTE
> 
> Hola Merquiades.
> 
> Te ruego que leas lo que voy a poner a continuación: lo he  sacado del diccionario Treccani, se refiere al pronombre sujeto de tercera persona singular:
> 
> *ESSO- ESSA1.* Serve a richiamare un nome precedentemente espresso, spec. di animale o cosa, più raram. di persona, tranne che nelle forme plur. _essi_, _esse_ che sostituiscono normalmente i pron. disusati _eglino_, _elleno_ (plur. di _egli_). Può avere funzione di soggetto e di complemento: _essi credono_; _qualcuna di esse_; _Com ’om che torna a la perduta strada_, _Che ’nfino ad essa li pare ire in vano_ (Dante). Nel linguaggio amministr., _chi per esso_ (ma oggi più com. _chi per lui_), chi ne fa le veci: _il titolare o chi per esso_; _la giustificazione dev’essere firmata dai genitori o da chi per essi_.
> 
> No existe algo semejante en las otras lenguas latinas: español él/ella; francés il/elle; portugués ele/ela; catalán ell/ella. Estos pronombres se usan tanto para referirse a personas como a objetos, en cambio en italiano hay dos series de pronombres sujetos de tercera persona singual y plural:
> 
> Para referirse a personas:
> egli, ella, empleados en el estilo literario.
> Lui, lei en el habla cotidiana
> 
> Para referirse a objetos o, muy rara vez, a animales:
> 
> esso/essa.
> Por ejemplo:
> "la situazione economica è gravissima, essa potrà determinare molta disoccupazione" en este ejemplo nunca se podría usar el pronombre "lei"
> 
> En un documental sobre animales salvajes se diría:
> 
> "il lupo si trova soprattutto nelle foreste del nord Europa, esso si nutre di....." También en este caso no se emplearía "lui "
> Por ejemplo, sólo se usa lui/lei al hablar de una mascota.
> 
> P.S. Se me ha olvidado añadir un comentario. El pronombre feminino “essa” se puede utilizar en lugar de ella en literatura, tal como en el ejemplo de Merquiades. Además,  se usa muy a menudo en varios dialectos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hola, Olaszinho.  Gracias por buscarme la información en el diccionario Treccani. Ha sido todo un detalle.
> 
> "Serve a richiamare un nome precedentemente espresso, spec. di animale o cosa, più raram. di persona"
> En realidad, Olas, aquí no veo gran diferencia entre un pronombre demostrativo y personal.  A menudo viene a ser lo mismo.
> ¿Quién es esa niña?  ¿Ella? (Ella) es la hija de Eros.
> Podríamos decir lo mismo con "esa" aun teniendo las connotaciones negativas.
> Da lo mismo en italiano, ¿no?
> Chi è quella bambina?  Lei, ella, essa, quella, codesta?  (Lei, quella, etc.) è la figlia d'Eros.
> ¿No te parecería igual de bien _lei_, _quella_, _essa_ en este caso?  Lo veo algo borroso.  A lo mejor, ya que tienen el mismo origen, _ipsum_, es normal que se parezcan un poco y tengan usos semejantes, aun siendo pronombres de índole distinta.
> 
> Para referirse a objetos o, muy rara vez, a animales:
> 
> esso/essa.
> Por ejemplo:
> "la situazione economica è gravissima, essa potrà determinare molta disoccupazione" en este ejemplo nunca se podría usar el pronombre "lei"
> 
> La situación económica está muy grave, y ésa, (eso) (lo cual) podrá determinar (causar, conllevar) mucho paro.
> También podría usarse un pronombre demostrativo.  No sé si te suena igual de bien _essa_ y _quella_ en este caso
> 
> Quella mucca non ci da molto latte.  Essa è malata.
> ¿También podría decirse _quella_?
> 
> Me parece interesante que existan tantos pronombres en italiano... lei ,ella , essa, y questa, quella, codesta.
> Ahora sí me acuerdo de una profesora que decía que "loro" sólo servía para personas y que nunca había concordancia de género o número, a pesar de ser plural.
> Loro danno loro i loro problemi.
> 
> Saludos
Click to expand...


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## Nino83

merquiades said:


> olaszinho said:
> 
> 
> 
> En realidad, Olas, aquí no veo gran diferencia entre un pronombre demostrativo y personal.  A menudo viene a ser lo mismo.
> ¿Quién es esa niña?  ¿Ella? (Ella) es la hija de Eros.
> Podríamos decir lo mismo con "esa" aun teniendo las connotaciones negativas.
> Da lo mismo en italiano, ¿no?
> Chi è quella bambina?  Lei, ella, essa, quella, codesta?  (Lei, quella, etc.) è la figlia d'Eros.
> ¿No te parecería igual de bien _lei_, _quella_, _essa_ en este caso?  Lo veo algo borroso.
> 
> Para referirse a objetos o, muy rara vez, a animales:
> 
> Quella mucca non ci da molto latte.  Essa è malata.
> ¿También podría decirse _quella_?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Quella è la figlia d'Eros".
> Si hay muchas niñas y mientras usted dice esta frase indica la niña, no tiene connotaciones negativas. En este caso el pronombre dimostrativo es utilizado para indicar, distinguir.
> Pero si hay una sola niña y utiliza el pronombre dimostrativo, en este caso tiene connotaciones negativas.
> En todo caso no puede utilizar el pronombre personal _essa_, porque se habla de una persona (se usa _lei, ella_).
> 
> En el caso de "Quella mucca non ci da molto latte.  Essa è malata." es lo mismo.
> Se hay muchas animales puede utilizar _questa_ para indicar, si hay un animal se utiliza _essa_.
> 
> Ciao
Click to expand...


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## olaszinho

Hola a todos.

No estoy de acuerdo con todo lo que dice Nino83. El pronombre "essa" se puede emplear también para referirse a personas, aunque este uso es mucho  menos común   en el italiano contemporaneo. Hay muchos ejemplos en literatura e incluso en el habla. En casa tengo un montón de gramáticas que preven el empleo de "essa" para referirse a una mujer. Hasta el Treccani, que he citado arriba, lo dice, si bien su uso es minoritario. Es verdad que la gramática del italiano neo-estándar no comtempla el uso del pronombre "essa".


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## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> merquiades said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Quella è la figlia d'Eros".
> Si hay muchas niñas y mientras usted dice esta frase indica la niña, no tiene connotaciones negativas. En este caso el pronombre dimostrativo es utilizado para indicar, distinguir.
> Pero si hay una sola niña y utiliza el pronombre dimostrativo, en este caso tiene connotaciones negativas.
> En todo caso no puede utilizar el pronombre personal _essa_, porque se habla de una persona (se usa _lei, ella_).
> 
> En el caso de "Quella mucca non ci da molto latte.  Essa è malata." es lo mismo.
> Se hay muchas animales puede utilizar _questa_ para indicar, si hay un animal se utiliza _essa_.
> 
> Ciao
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vale, gracias, Niño.  Por fin, he entendido.   En ningún caso "essa" puede referirse a una mujer.
> 
> Edit:  He visto el comentario de Olaszinho, que usa "esso,essa, essi, esse" para personas.  Está bien. Os dejo poneros de acuerdo.
> 
> Mejor evitar estos pronombres.  De cualquier modo parece que no son de uso frecuente en el habla cotidiana.
Click to expand...


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## olaszinho

merquiades said:


> Nino83 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vale, gracias, Niño.  Por fin, he entendido.   En ningún caso "essa" puede referirse a una mujer.
> 
> Edit:  He visto el comentario de Olaszinho, que usa "esso,essa, essi, esse" para personas.  Está bien. Os dejo poneros de acuerdo.
> 
> Mejor evitar estos pronombres.  De cualquier modo parece que no son de uso frecuente en el habla cotidiana.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hay disputas en todos los foros. Creo que nunca nos podremos poner de acuerdo.  Merquiades si lees lo que escribe el Treccani, se dice que a veces, aunque rara vez, "essa" puede referirse a personas. Es claro que  un extranjero puede atenerse al uso de lui/lei y a veces emplear esso/essa para referirse a cosas.
Click to expand...


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## Nino83

olaszinho said:


> Hasta el Treccani, que he citado arriba, lo dice, si bien su uso es minoritario. Es verdad que la gramática del italiano neo-estándar no comtempla el uso del pronombre "essa".



La utilización de _essa_ para referirse a personas es una excepción a la regla (_esso_ no puede ser utilizado en estos casos) y diria que no es utilizado en todo el pais. 
El hecho importante es que el pronombre dimostrativo es emplejado para diferenciar muchas cosas o personas (sin connotaciones negativas). 

Ciao


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## Querulus

Cenzontle said:


> Beachxhair, I don't know if you have this in Brit.Eng., but I often hear it in Am.Eng.:  the demonstrative "this" used as an indefinite article ("a"/"an").
> An informal narration might go like this:
> "I was in the library yesterday and, like, youknow, looking for *this *book?"  (No book visible in the immediate surroundings; boldface does not mean stress.)
> Translation in standard English: "I was in the library yesterday looking for *a *book [whose identity is known to me, but not to you, being hereby introduced into the discourse]."
> Continued informal narration:  "And *this *guy walks up to me and says..."  (Again, "this" is unstressed; "this guy" sounds like "the sky".)
> Standard English:  "And *an *adult male approached me and said..."
> 
> 
> For English-speakers familiar with this process, I think it can help with an intuitive appreciation for how a demonstrative can become an article.
> In the English case, it's the *proximal* "this", rather than the *distal *"that", and it's the *indefinite *article rather than the *definite* article.
> The proximal demonstrative "this" implies something "close to me"—as the "book" and the "guy" above are, figuratively, in *my *consciousness (but not yours).



I've noticed that here in Australia this practice has emerged very suddenly, not least among my generally well educated friends. I recall many years ago when visiting East Africa that it was common to use 'this one' as a synonym for he/she - quite disconcerting when you are standing in front of the people talking about you this way. I wonder if that may be the next development.


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