# Prefix ma(麻/马/蚂)-?



## Skatinginbc

What does 麻 mean in 麻雀?  And what does it mean in 麻菇 (as in 江西省南城县麻菇山)?  What does 螞 mean in 螞蟻 (also 螞蟥, 螞螂, 螞蜂, 螞蚱)?  Do they actually mean the same, that is, "small and many (swarming, gathering together in large numbers)" like the 麻 in 密密麻麻?


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## nightdragon

I don't think they mean the same,  麻 in 麻雀 and 麻菇 means the color (similar to dark brown), 蚂 is widely used to describe small insects


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## Skatinginbc

nightdragon said:


> 麻 in 麻雀 and 麻菇 means the color (similar to dark brown)


Good explanation.  By the way, what's the color of 芝麻 (or 胡麻)?  Does 麻 ("seeds"?  I guess) in 芝麻 bear the same connotations of "small" and "clumpy" (having a tendency of congregating in large numbers) as 蚂?
Is it possible that the 蘑 in 蘑菇 and the 麻 in 麻菇 are related (e.g., < Old Chinese *mə.kˁa 菇 "mushroom", http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Baxter-Sagart_Old_Chinese_reconstruction )?

I just discovered from this dictionary http://www.zdic.net/z/29/js/9EBB.htm that 麻 in 麻雀 and 麻蝇 means "带细碎斑点的"--involving the connotation of  细碎 "small, tiny", and perhaps "in large numbers" 有数不清的斑点.


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## nightdragon

Skatinginbc said:


> what's the color of 芝麻 (or 胡麻)?



It is black or white, I think 麻 in 芝麻 means small and many, 



Skatinginbc said:


> Does 麻 ("seeds", I guess) in 芝麻 bear the same connotations of "small" and "clumpy" (having a tendency of congregating in large numbers) as 蚂?


yes



Skatinginbc said:


> Is it possible that the 蘑 in 蘑菇 and the 麻 in 麻菇 are related (e.g., < Old Chinese *mə.kˁa 菇 "mushroom", http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Baxter-Sagart_Old_Chinese_reconstruction )?


I am not sure about this, I checked that on internet but no certain answer, personally, I tend to believe that 蘑 is not related to 麻


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## Skatinginbc

I couldn't find a dictionary that defines 麻 as "dark brown".  Obviously, 麻菇 is not spotty.  If 麻 in 麻菇 does not refer to its color, then what does it mean?


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## nightdragon

Skatinginbc said:


> I just discovered from this dictionary http://www.zdic.net/z/29/js/9EBB.htm that 麻 in 麻雀 and 麻蝇 means "带细碎斑点的"--involving the connotation of  细碎 "small, tiny", and perhaps "in large numbers" 有数不清的斑点.


you are a very good researcher of hanzi 


Skatinginbc said:


> I couldn't find a dictionary that defines 麻 as "dark brown".  Obviously, 麻菇 is not spotty.  If 麻 in 麻菇 does not refer to its color, then what does it mean?


麻姑, is a very famous god in Chinese taoism god system, and 麻姑山 (not 麻菇山) is named after her. Maybe 麻菇 is also named after this god


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## Skatinginbc

That's possible.  蘑菇 is also written as 摩姑/磨菇, and 螞蜂 as 馬蜂 (which in fact has nothing to do with "horse").  It appears to me that the sound _ma_- or _muo_- carries the meaning, not the ideograph, which is unusual because Chinese languages were unified through the writing system, not through the sounds.


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## Ghabi

The ancient philologists believe 馬 means "big; large" when prefixing animate names. It exists in insects (馬蚿/馬蜩 etc) as well as in plants (馬蓼/馬莧 etc). The only mammal example may be 馬猴 (cf. this thread).


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## Skatinginbc

Thank you, Ghabi, for your valuable input.  It is very helpful.


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## brofeelgood

For whatever reason, I've always had the impression that the 麻 in 麻雀 is referring to the spotted pattern on the bird's body.

As for 蚂, could it be the classification of a branch of insects that includes 蚂蚁, 蚂蜂 and 蚂蝗?


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## Skatinginbc

邢公畹：“虫名前有‘马’字或‘蚂’字的不一定是表示大；如‘蚂蝗（马蟞）’，江淮方言称‘蚱蜢’为‘蚂蚱儿’等都不论大小。” (http://hsx9811.blog.163.com/blog/static/88889214201121712949280/).
馬猴的"馬"不一定是表示"大"(this thread).
"馬"表示"大"还是"多"?  Proto-Tibeto-Burman *_mra_ "to have or be in great plenty, abound" (Kanauri _mra_  "many")  http://books.google.ca/books?id=t-6...d=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Kanauri mra&f=false 
上古汉语里的"馬" *_mra_ 表示"大"是来自受外语影响的方言吗?  《方言》曰: 馬蚿大者謂之馬蚰。《新方言·释言》: "今淮南、山东谓大枣为马枣." Proto-Austronesian *_ma-ʀaya_ "big", Austro-Asiatic: Kentung-Wa _mra_ "strong (of persons)人高馬大".


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## BODYholic

brofeelgood said:


> For whatever reason, I've always had the impression that the 麻 in 麻雀 is referring to the spotted pattern on the bird's body.



I've the exact impression too but that's probably because of my several visits to a 麻风(疯)疗养院 back in my younger days for some volunteering works. I also can't help to correlate it with 麻婆豆腐.


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## Skatinginbc

What does 麻 mean in 麻婆豆腐?  What does 麻婆 mean?


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## Ghabi

The black kite is known as 麻鷹 in Cantonese and 麻鷂子 in Sichuan, so perhaps 麻 in 麻雀 really has to do with its feather colour/pattern.

Zhang Taiyan considers 麻雀 a corrupted form of 懱爵 (one of the ancient names of a kind of small bird), with 懱 meaning "tiny". That sounds far-fetched to me, as 懱 and 麻 sound so different.


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## Skatinginbc

"麻鷹時時用熱流高飛，盤旋飛行，搵嘢食，有時會大羣聚集。" (http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/麻鷹) ==> Again, it falls into my category of "congregating in great numbers".  

There is no doubt that 雀 = 爵 (段玉裁『說文解字注』: 雀: 依人小鳥也。今俗云麻雀者是也...爵與雀同音。後人因書小鳥之字爲爵矣).  雀 = 麻雀 (according to 段玉裁) plus 猴 = 馬猴 ==> 麻 functions like 馬? 

The link between 懱 and 麻 is indeed controversial.  I don't have evidence to negate that hypothesis, though.  懱爵 was a regional dialect of 关西 in the Han Dynasty and  I'm not clear how 懱 was pronounced in that dialect at that time.  Anyway, let's assume for now that 懱爵 and 麻雀 refer to different birds.


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## BODYholic

Skatinginbc said:


> What does 麻 mean in 麻婆豆腐?  What does 麻婆 mean?





> 此菜大約在清同治初年（1874年以後），由成都市北郊萬福橋一家名為「陳興盛飯舖」的小飯店老闆娘陳劉氏所创。因為陳劉氏臉上有麻点，人稱陳麻婆，她發明的燒豆腐就被稱為「陳麻婆豆腐」 -- source



麻婆豆腐 is a common dish in Singapore. And for once, I thought it was coined for the fact that it looks, presumably, like the face of a 麻婆 (麻风婆婆?). I stand corrected.


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## Karl Yu

nightdragon said:


> you are a very good researcher of hanzi
> 
> 麻姑, is a very famous god in Chinese taoism god system, and 麻姑山 (not 麻菇山) is named after her. Maybe 麻菇 is also named after this god




To Nightdragon & Skatinginbc:

Hi

I did a bit research to the possible origin of 麻姑山 or 麻菇山 in history according to your discussions.
At present, the official name of the “麻菇山” in 江西南城县 is “麻姑山”。 And as an evidence that name of the mountain name has been settled at very beginning of Tang Dynasty. [reference: search 拓片 image of 《麻姑山仙坛记》（this tour article was carved on a stone at 江西南城县 in 唐大历六年（771年）四月）, on which you may see the title clearly as :"有唐撫州南城縣麻姑山"]。
The “麻菇山” you mentioned is in 山西运城附近的 中条山国家森林公园 [reference: search 中条山 or 中条山国家森林公园， you may use ctrl + F search “麻” on the website, and a sentence of "*麻菇山，原名蘑菇山，因盛产**蘑菇**而得名，后来麻姑在此修行成仙，人们在山顶建起庙宇，改名麻菇山，纪念麻姑善良、勤劳和贤惠的美德。主要景点有麻菇揽胜、麻菇泉、麻菇点石、麻菇遗风。*"]. However I am not fully convinced with the reference, there should be more article behind it. 

Anyway, to be concluded, the 麻姑山 and 麻菇山 are in remember of “麻姑”, who would be a respectful taoist in ancient China, whether she is one person or two person at different places. If you are looking for the meaning of 麻 for these two places, I suggested to look into the detail of original story of 麻姑. Personally speaking, Chinese usually use “麻” to describe a person with freckle (as spotty in original meaning)，for use as 王麻子.

Please correct me for my terrible Chinglish, I am still learning it.

Karl


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