# Pronunciation: "h" in "wh" words [pronounced?]



## jokker

<<This thread now has been created by merging a number of threads on the same topic >>

Do you pronounce whale as 

1.) /hwel/ as in http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whale
or 
2.) /wel/ as in http://www.ee.tku.edu.tw/~rexchen/cdict/enwave.cgi?mb.Rz5q/pUI=whale

Or, these two pronunciations are spoken?

Many thanks in advance.


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## se16teddy

Whether one pronounces the h in whale is mainly determined by geographical factors. The h is pronounced in Scotland, Ireland and some parts of the south-eastern United States. Wikipedia gives further details under the heading 'wine - whine merger' on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_consonants#H-dropping_and_h-adding

In England, the dropping of h in 'house' is often stigmatized, but the dropping of h in 'where' is not.


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## jokker

Oh, oh, I've got it. Thank you so much, se16teddy.


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## Yuribear

Here is another link where you can hear how i sounds.


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## jokker

Yuribear said:
			
		

> Here is another link where you can hear how i sounds.


I have just listened to it. It's a h-dropping pronunciation. Thank you very much, Yuribear.


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## river

I aspirate all the WH words - which, where, why, whale, wheat - much to chagrin of my children who insist that I'm wrong.  Here is an interesting read on W vs. WH << Site no longer exists. >>


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## foxfirebrand

I'll vouch for the AE part of what se16teddy said-- the /wh/ pronunciation is preserved in the Southern variant, which geographically means the southeastern part of the U.S.

This /wh/ phoneme qualifies as a genuine shibboleth-- people who weren't raised in the Old South don't even hear a difference.  Since the Southern dialect has been adopted by the music and entertainment industries, and a lot of singers and actors are feigning that dialect (what I've complained about as "gooberism"), there is a lot of ungenuine "hillbilly" being spoken on TV-- but even some of the fairly talented mimics can be easily sorted out, since they use /w/ where /wh/ should be pronounced instead.
.


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## jokker

river said:
			
		

> I aspirate all the WH words - which, where, why, whale, wheat -


I am with you and I guess the 99.9% Taiwan people are also with you. 


> much to chagrin of my children who insist that I'm wrong.


I don't know how the other non-native English countries teach English, but in Taiwan if a schoolchild doesn't pronounce /hw/ of wh-words he would be considered wrong and mostly would be corrected and might be laughed at by his classmates. You can tell your children this. 



> Here is an interesting read on W vs. WH http://www.geocities.com/bprice1949/wvswh.html


Thank you for sharing this article!! It's really interesting and funny!

"You mean _whales_," I said.
"Yes, Wales."
"Wales? But that's the country Wales, not whales. You're talking about _whales_."
"Yes, like I said, _Wales_."

................................   

Above all, I am so glad and surprised that even a native English speaker would have exactly the same doubt as a non-native. But then, I think Chinese dialects have the similar situations.


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## badgrammar

It had never, ever even come to my mind that some folks pronounce the "h" sound in words beginning in "wh".  I will have to listen more carefully, I have always just assumed that the h is silent.


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## Outsider

As I understand, the 'wh' digraph represented a sound different from [w] in ancient English. It's pretty similar to [hw], though perhaps not exactly the same. Some dialects of English still use it, but you can get by if you use [w] instead.


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## panjandrum

I discovered by accident, hwile browsing the OED, that many (most?, all?) of our wh- words were originally hw- words.
Ah, sorry, in fact the originally hw- words are now wh-words - that's better.

I thought I'd mention this because hw- is much closer to how these words are pronounced - by whose of us who take the h into account. So, while is pronounces as hwile - as wile with an h at the front.

Edit:  Sorry outsider - I was delayed in mid-post and didn't check.
But I think we agree anyway.


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## foxfirebrand

/hw/ words in OE have cognates in Old Norse /qv/ words-- and of course many correspond to /qu/ words in Latin, especially pronounds and adverbs.
.


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## jokker

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> the /wh/ pronunciation is preserved in the Southern variant, which geographically means the southeastern part of the U.S.


'Preserved' sounds as if the /hw/ pronunciation were dying out.  

But in fact the pronunciation /hw/ of the digraph 'wh' has been the standard way that we have learned (Taiwan has used the Kenyon & Knott (K.K.) phonetic symbols to teach students how to pronounce an English word...funny, it apparently seems that you natives are not learning so. 



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> As I understand, the 'wh' digraph represented a sound different from [w] in ancient English. It's pretty similar to [hw], though perhaps not exactly the same. Some dialects of English still use it, but you can get by if you use [w] instead.


Oh, yes, the sound /hw/ (of wh) is different form /w/ to us, as 'where' is definitely different form 'wear'. 

In K.K. phonetic symbols, 'wh' is exactly represented as /hw/.

Does that mean I have learned not only ancient English but also dialects?


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## Outsider

jokker said:
			
		

> 'Preserved' sounds as if the /hw/ pronunciation were dying out.


That does seem to be the case.



			
				jokker said:
			
		

> But in fact the pronunciation /hw/ of the digraph 'wh' has been the standard way that we have learned (Taiwan has used the Kenyon & Knott (K.K.) phonetic symbols to teach students how to pronounce an English word...funny, it apparently seems that you natives are not learning so.


Why should natives have to learn a pronunciation they don't naturally use?
Perhaps the reason why you were taught to distinguish between 'w' and 'wh' is that the same distinction exists in your language. But notice that the distinction is not maintained in any of the main 'centres' of the English language: England, (most of) the U.S., Australia...


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## jokker

panjandrum said:
			
		

> I discovered by accident, hwile browsing the OED,


I like this 'hwile'. 


> that many (most?, all?) of our wh- words were originally hw- words.
> Ah, sorry, in fact the originally hw- words are now wh-words - that's better.


As I have learned the ancient English way to pronounce, I can understand you perfectly. 



> I thought I'd mention this because hw- is much closer to how these words are pronounced - by whose of us who take the h into account. So, while is pronounces as hwile - as wile with an h at the front.


I agree with you. (Because of the training effect of K.K. phonetic symbols. Should I be glad of this? Actually, in Taiwan there are some scholars and professors who think that it's not good to use K.K. only to teach students... )


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## badgrammar

Wear and where do not sound alike? 

Looks like I better go take some K and K English lessons, and fast!!!


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## jokker

Outsider said:
			
		

> That does seem to be the case.


Oh, thanks God, there still are some areas and people that have the same pronunciation as I. Are we really the minority? Oh, no~~~ >___< 



> Why should natives have to learn a pronunciation they don't naturally use?


Good point! In recent years, there has been a new way used in Taiwan to teach students how to pronounce, which is called 'natural pronounce'.  


> Perhaps the reason why you were taught to distinguish between 'w' and 'wh' is that the same distinction exists in your language.


Oh, as for this, no. we just learn the K.K. phonetic symbols. Actually, many of Taiwan students find it difficult to pronounce 'correctly', I ,for one, can't pronounce some words/phonetic symbols properly.


> But notice that the distinction is not maintained in any of the main 'centres' of the English language: England, (most of) the U.S., Australia...


Smart you. Yes, some of the Taiwan professors and scholars have noticed this just as you said. Therefore, now there is a new way called 'natural pronounce' used to teach students.


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## Blackleaf

The "wh" in English used to be pronounced as "hw". So "whale" used to be pronounced "hwale". It comes from Anglo-Saxon. Some people still do pronounce them as "hwale" (whale), "hwite" (white) but I think they are now archaic.  Strangely, it seems to be mostly people in Scotland who pronounced words beginning with "wh" in this way.


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## jokker

badgrammar said:
			
		

> Wear and where do not sound alike?


Oh, my God, do they sound alike to you? I am serious! I really am surprised to learn how you natives pronounce some words...today...I learn it today.

O.K. Their pronunciations are very close, but not exactly the same!! Is there anybody with me?!


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## Blackleaf

jokker said:
			
		

> Oh, my God, do they sound alike to you? I am seriously! I really am surprised to learn how you natives pronounce some words...today...I learn it today.
> 
> O.K. Their pronunciations are very close, but not exactly the same!! Is there anybody with me?!


 
"Where" and "wear" sound exactly the same to me.  There is no difference.

But I don't pronounce the "h" in words beginning with "wh".  For those who do - for example, those who pronounce "whale" as "hwale" - they sound different.


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## panjandrum

Outsider said:
			
		

> [..] But notice that the distinction is not maintained in any of the main 'centres' of the English language: England, (most of) the U.S., Australia...


Well, _*really* _
Wiping the spluttered spray from my screen.....
I quote the Oxford Companion to the English Language:


> The distinction between /hw/ and /w/ in such pairs as whales/Wales was once universal in English ...
> ... the /hw/ now survives, normal in IrE and ScoE, widespread in AmE and CanE, and common among older speakers of RP.


The fact that some parts of the English-speaking world are off to hell in a handcart is no justification either for the rest of us to follow or for comments that demean the position of such bastions of educated English speech as Ireland, Scotland, and Canada (oh yes, and parts of the USA). 

Seriously though, considering that the blurring of this distinction is causing such chaos in comprehension, why is it happening?


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## jokker

Blackleaf said:
			
		

> The "wh" in English *used to* be pronounced as "hw". So "whale" *used to* be pronounced "hwale". It comes from Anglo-Saxon. Some people still do pronounce them as "hwale" (whale), "hwite" (white) but I think *they are now archaic*. Strangely, it seems to be mostly people in Scotland who pronounced words beginning with "wh" in this way.


Oh, no...another vote for h-dropping pronunciation...(Now I speak ancient, archaic and dialectic English... ...just kidding. )

Blackleaf, thank you very much for the explanation. I have learned a lot. and learned that I have learned and spoken ancient, archaic and dialectic English. lol


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## Outsider

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Seriously though, considering that the blurring of this distinction is causing such chaos in comprehension, why is it happening?


Is it causing a chaos in comprehension? I've never noticed it!

I did not mean to demean the, well, _other_ centres of the English language, but I do think that when a foreign student "learns English" he does not usually pick the Irish or the Scottish variety (and I was being kind with Australia, too). 

More importantly, though, the links posted previously in this thread conflict with your quote from the Oxford Companion to the English Language. Which is right?...


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## jokker

Blackleaf said:
			
		

> "Where" and "wear" sound exactly the same to me. There is no difference.


I see. Because you don't pronunce the 'h'. 



> But I don't pronounce the "h" in words beginning with "wh". For those who do - for example, those who pronounce "whale" as "hwale" - they sound different.


Yes, they are truly different. lol

But now I am getting understood the difference (or, no difference) between them.


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## jokker

Many thanks to all of you! Indeed! Without your inputs, discussions and explanations, I won't be able to learn this distinction of the pronunciation. 

All I hope is that others can understand what I am talking when speaking English.  Though 'whales' and 'wales' cuould be confusing sometimes, it can be settled anyway. 'Wales?' 'No, Whales.'


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## panjandrum

Outsider said:
			
		

> Is it causing a chaos in comprehension? I've never noticed it!
> 
> I did not mean to demean the, well, _other_ centres of the English language, but I do think that when a foreign student "learns English" he does not usually pick the Irish or the Scottish variety (and I was being kind with Australia, too).
> 
> More importantly, though, the links posted previously in this thread conflict with your quote from the Oxford Companion to the English Language. Which is right?...


Thank you, Outsider, for taking my comments as they were meant.

I'm feeling a little marginalised today: having been pigeon-holed into the older generation in another thread I now find myself one of the last defenders of /hw/.  Not to mention having been called archaic by Blackleaf earlier in this thread.

I hadn't realised that this feature had become so dominant around the world.  How very curious, although in keeping with the other mergers listed in Wiki.

I guess there is nothing for it but to concede that  /w/ has almost completely wiped out /hw/.  Can I appeal to the WWF on grounds of being an endangered species?


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## jokker

panjandrum said:
			
		

> I now find myself one of the last defenders of /hw/.


You forgot me!! I am with you.  And river, too!!! 


> I hadn't realised that this feature had become so dominant around the world. How very curious, although in keeping with the other mergers listed in Wiki.
> 
> I guess there is nothing for it but to concede that /w/ has almost completely wiped out /hw/.


But it's a good thing. You see, we can speak and understand both of the pronunciations! Thus, our confuse will be less.


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## Outsider

panjandrum said:
			
		

> I hadn't realised that this feature had become so dominant around the world.  How very curious, although in keeping with the other mergers listed in Wiki.
> 
> I guess there is nothing for it but to concede that  /w/ has almost completely wiped out /hw/.  Can I appeal to the WWF on grounds of being an endangered species?


I wouldn't put it that way, either. Ireland plus Scotland plus a good chunk of the U.S. and Canada -- that's a lot of people, and we don't know how long you will keep making the distinction between the two sounds. It could be for a very long time. 

But, anyway, for a lazy foreigner, it's always easier not to make a distinction than to make it.


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## panjandrum

Indeed I didn't forget you, jokker, nor river either 
Of course if you could arrange for your compatriots to come along with the /hw/ pronunciation - we could outnumber the rest of them in no time.

As a matter of interest, would the /hw/ -> /w/ merger apply to singers in the parts of the world where /hw/ has vanished? (I mean proper singers, the kind that enunciate words clearly.)  Voice coaches are especially fussy about clear articulation and often require singers to over-articulate in order to communicate effectively at a distance.


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## Gordonedi

In some parts of the UK, the w of /wh/ is being dropped.  I well recall a visit to the Tower of London when the guard enacting the scene called out "Halt !  Hoo goes there ?"


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## Outsider

Now you're jesting. 
But it is interesting how "who" is spelled with a silent "w". I wonder why.


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## panjandrum

I've become contaminated by this thread 
Every wh- word has to be looked at twice before I can be sure if it is a /w/, a /hw/ or an /h/ word.

The same Oxford Companion... says:





> In _who, whom, whose, w_ rather than h has fallen silent.


That's not a great deal of help, although it does suggest that these are the only wh- words pronounced /h/.

I haven't been able to find any reason for some wh- words (all of which seem to have been originally hw- words) now being /w/ while some are /h/.


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## mgarizona

Just a thought ... I've noticed that /hw/ is very hard to pronounce following the word 'the' ... and that for myself I pronounce 'hweels and deals' but 'the weels go round' ... I wonder if many people actually mix up the two pronunciations.


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## foxfirebrand

mgarizona said:
			
		

> Just a thought ... I've noticed that /hw/ is very hard to pronounce following the word 'the' ... and that for myself I pronounce 'hweels and deals' but 'the weels go round' ... I wonder if many people actually mix up the two pronunciations.


 Hwat a good ear you have! Now you've got me monitoring myself and wondering. I'm a pretty inveterate /wh/ pronouncer, it's the one part of my childhood Southern accent that never went away. Or awry.  But I'm sure I screw up whonce in a wile.

I've noticed cases of overcorretion, mostly in movie dialogue spoken by actors trying to come off more dignified or elegant than they are in out-of-role life.

Whorf, for example, the "assimilated" Klingon who's on the crew of the Enterprise in the "Next Generation" version of Star Trek-- he talks about "wheppons" so emphatically that I wonder if that particular word will pick up an anomalous pronunciation among people who were raised on TV and watched the program faithfully.
.


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## moodywop

panjandrum said:
			
		

> I haven't been able to find any reason for some wh- words (all of which seem to have been originally hw- words) now being /w/ while some are /h/.


 
Panji

I've been able to dig up some information in some old university textbooks(Gimson's _An Introduction to the Pronunciation of English _and Strang's _A History of English_):

[hw] finally merges with /w/ in educated southern speech in the late 18th century, although still deplored by normative elocutionists; /w/ occurs for [hw] much earlier - probably in Middle English - however, in popular speech. The reduction of [hw] to /w/ is parallel to that of [hr, hn, hl] to /r, n, l/.
In the case of _who, whom, whose, _it is the [w] element which has been lost (probably by the Early Modern English period) due to a merging of the [w] with the following, similar, /u:/. (Gimson)

The contrast of /w/ and /hw/ has characterized northern speech at all periods, but has largely been absent from southern English since the Norman Conquest. Yet English spelling enshrines the memory of it , and so great is the authority of the written form that it has to some extent been re-introduced, especially in careful and public styles of enunciation. (Strang)

Interestingly, both Gimson and Strang say that rather than [hw], what most Irish, Scottish and American speakers produce is a variant (whose phonetic symbol is an upside-down _w_) which they describe as a "fortis voiceless labio-velar fricative".


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## panjandrum

> [...] what most Irish, Scottish and American speakers produce is a variant (whose phonetic symbol is an upside-down _w_) [...] a *"fortis voiceless labio-velar fricative".*


 
I've just found another wh- that I pronounce /h/ like who whom and whose -  *whole*.


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## foxfirebrand

panjandrum said:
			
		

> I've just found another wh- that I pronounce /h/ like who whom and whose -  *whole*.


 Funny-- the first example that came to my mind was *whore.   *_Whole_ was the only other._
.
_


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## Celador

Most English speaking Scots also distinguish between 'w' and 'wh', even when using Scots words, such as 'whit' for 'what'. Doric speaking Aberdonian's however, substitute an 'f' for 'wh', eg.:

fit = what
where = fur
when = fan
etc...


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## LV4-26

Hello there,

1.
I know the 'h' should generally be sounded in words like _who_, _what_, _which _(I think it's called an "aspired h", and I've always wondered why, by the way : I'd rather call it a "blown h".....but that's another issue ).

However, they do not seem to be equally sounded. The aspired 'h' sounds stronger to me in _who_ than in _what_ or _which.
_Second, it seems to depend a lot on how fast you speak and also maybe where you come from (?).

2.
Until fairly recently, I made an exception for _why_, _where_ and _when_ in which I thought the 'h' was hardly ever aspired.

But then, I listened to Terry Jacks singing _Seasons in the Sun_ and he obviously aspires the "h" in the word "_everywhere_".
Pretty girls are everywhere
Little children everywhere

Whereas other singers singing the same song don't.
I wondered whether it was because he's Canadian.

Could you help me sort out the whole thing?
Are there some reasons (geographical or otherwise) why the 'h' in '_wh-words_' should be more or less aspired or not aspired at all?

Jean-Michel


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## sound shift

I pronounce an 'h' in 'who'.
I do not pronounce an 'h' in 'what', 'which', 'where' or 'when', but in Scotland and Ireland it appears to be normal to pronounce an 'h' in some or all of these words.


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## suzi br

Hi - basically I wouldn't worry about it! I think you are right to say is varies accordingot the tempo of speech  and maybe geographical accent issues.  I'd add into that  the issue of relative formality too.  

(that, and songs are not really indicative of speech patterns!)

If I speak quicky I am more likely to say 'oo "wot" "witch" and for the first three you mention, but I would avoid that in a more formal situation and articulate more clearly generally. On the other hand I'd feel a bit silly  aspirating an H in a situation where I was asking my mate to repeat herself by saying "wot?".


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## LV4-26

Thanks, sound shift. Yes, according to what I've heard, yours seems to be the standard BE pronunciation.

By the way, I've just heard the same song sung by the Mammas and the Papas and they also aspire the 'h' in _everywhere. _

EDIT : Thanks to you too, suzi br.

If you've heard the song sung by Jacks, (there are lots of videos on the Internet), did it sound unusual to you as it did to me?


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## Outsider

Here's a previous thread about the pronunciation of the digaph WH. Yes, it does vary with the region where the speaker comes from.

<<Thanks Outsider - I have just added this thread to the end of that one.
So your link links to here 
Panj>>


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## LV4-26

Thanks very much Outsider, I found all I needed in the mentionned thread.
Sorry. I did try to make a search but it seems I entered the wrong words.


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## Thomas1

Hello, 

How do you pronounce _which_ and _witch_, please? I’d like to find out if there are any people who can discern any difference between the two. If so could you please tell the (detailed* if possible) origin of your variant of English as well?

Many thanks,
Tom


*i.e. the variant of English you use and area where your dialect is used


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## Hockey13

Thomas1 said:


> Hello,
> 
> How do you pronounce _which_ and _witch_, please? I’d like to find out if there are any people who can discern any difference between the two. If so could you please tell the (detailed* if possible) origin of your variant of English as well?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Tom
> 
> 
> *i.e. the variant of English you use and area where your dialect is used


 
There is no difference in the vast majority of dialects. Hence the joke behind comments/tongue twisters like:

Which witch is which?

Whenever the weather is cold, whenever the weather is hot, we'll weather the weather, whatever the weather, whether we like it or not.

I believe it's a southern midwest (i.e. Texas, Oklahoma) normality to add a breathiness to the W in "wh-" words. This can be heard in the TV series "King of the Hill," especially when the main character uses the phrase, "I'll tell you what.." I'll find you the article if you give me a few moments..

*Edit:* Here you go. It's called the "wine-whine merger" that has not occurred in a large portion of dialects in English. Wikipedia states that: "_The merger is essentially complete in England, Wales, the West Indies, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, and is widespread in the United States and Canada._" However, in a lot of southern American dialects, the merger is also not complete. The sound is something like adding an "H" in front of the "W." However, if I were you, I wouldn't worry so much about it because, as is evidenced by a lot of dialects, context makes it clear which (not witch!) you're talking about.


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## Anais Ninn

_*Which*_ can be pronouced 'wich (i.e. like _*witch*),_ or ' hwich. Both are correct.

Anais


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## sound shift

I am from central England and I pronounce "which" and "witch" identically, without an "H"-sound.

I am not sure about this, but I believe the Scots and the Irish make a distinction.


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## Thomas1

Hockey13 said:


> There is no difference in the vast majority of dialects. Hence the joke behind comments/tongue twisters like:
> 
> Which witch is which?
> 
> Whenever the weather is cold, whenever the weather is hot, we'll weather the weather, whatever the weather, whether we like it or not.
> 
> I believe it's a southern midwest (i.e. Texas, Oklahoma) normality to add a breathiness to the W in "wh-" words. This can be heard in the TV series "King of the Hill," especially when the main character uses the phrase, "I'll tell you what.." I'll find you the article if you give me a few moments..
> 
> *Edit:* Here you go. It's called the "wine-whine merger" that has not occurred in a large portion of dialects in English. Wikipedia states that: "_The merger is essentially complete in England, Wales, the West Indies, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, and is widespread in the United States and Canada._" However, in a lot of southern American dialects, the merger is also not complete. The sound is something like adding an "H" in front of the "W." However, if I were you, I wouldn't worry so much about it because, as is evidenced by a lot of dialects, context makes it clear which (not witch!) you're talking about.


Thank you for your contribution. 
It's not much about the difference since I posed my question purely out of curiosity where people use voiceless labiovelar fricative (in spelling _wh_) istead of its voiced equivalent. I also know it exists in many parts of Englsih-speaking countries and tried to find out exactly where. Do you make a difference?


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## Hockey13

Thomas1 said:


> Thank you for your contribution.
> It's not much about the difference since I posed my question purely out of curiosity where people use voiceless labiovelar fricative (in spelling _wh_) istead of its voiced equivalent. I also know it exists in many parts of Englsih-speaking countries and tried to find out exactly where. Do you make a difference?


 
I do not...I come from the New York City area originally! Also the people where I live now do not make the distinction.


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## winklepicker

panjandrum said:


> As a matter of interest, would the /hw/ -> /w/ merger apply to singers in the parts of the world where /hw/ has vanished? (I mean proper singers, the kind that enunciate words clearly.) Voice coaches are especially fussy about clear articulation and often require singers to over-articulate in order to communicate effectively at a distance.


 
That's right Panj. In our choir we are taught 'hwere' and 'hwat', and my wife (a trained soprano) has incorporated this into her everyday speech.

I, however, (a non-aspirator of 'wh') tease her by aspirating hwords that begin with W - wich hwinds her up hwonderfully.


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## Namakemono

I don't see a regional pattern. Sometimes, I hear British and Americans pronounce "when" or "white" as "hwen" and "hwite", which is not the common way to pronounce them. I wonder if this has something to do with social status, education or age.


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## papa majada

To my ears, the pronunciation "hwen" and "hwite" sound like what we call in the U.S. WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) and perhaps a bit snobby or conservative....


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## JamesM

papa majada said:


> To my ears, the pronunciation "hwen" and "hwite" sound like what we call in the U.S. WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) and perhaps a bit snobby or conservative....


 
Well, I'm a WASP from California and would not say the "h" in "when", "what", "white" or "whether". 

I hear the pronounced "H" in "wh" from people coming from the Arkansas/Oklahoma area of the country. I don't know if it's elsewhere as well.

(It seems to me there was a thread on this not too long ago, but I can't find it.)


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## Namakemono

So it's a regional thing? I also got the impression that it sounded rather snobby.


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## panjandrum

Back in a few minutes ...

Today's thread has been added to the previous discussion.  Have a good read through the previous posts - they might be helpful.


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## timpeac

A friend of mine from Northern Ireland (not too far from Panjandrum, I believe) pronounces these words /hw/, and tells me this is normal in his region. Before meeting him I had no idea that anyone pronounced these words that way.


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## panjandrum

We are very straightforward people when it comes to pronunciation.

We pronounce these words differently:
when - wen
what - watt
white - wight
whether - weather.

That seems like good sense to us. Wh- is pronounced hw- here.


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## Hockey13

Namakemono said:


> I don't see a regional pattern. Sometimes, I hear British and Americans pronounce "when" or "white" as "hwen" and "hwite", which is not the common way to pronounce them. I wonder if this has something to do with social status, education or age.


 
It's a bit of an oversimplification to limit the English speaking regions to "Britain" and "America" isn't it? There definitely is a regional difference within those countries.


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## jabogitlu

> We pronounce these words differently:
> when - wen
> what - watt
> white - wight
> whether - weather.



I voice these differently as well; I'm from Tennessee, so I guess a majority of the Appalachian dialectal variants also aspirate, or whatever! 

I'm _especially_ inclined to differentiate between whether and weather.  It's tough for me to say 'weather or not we go...' !


----------



## Hockey13

What and watt are generally pronounced differently in most places. A watt is named after James Watt whose name was pronounced "wot." I've never heard anyone say "wot" for what.


----------



## caballoschica

Well, I think that the "a" in "what" is slightly different than the a in "watt". 
What=whuht watt=wot, to me.
I slightly aspirate.  But not to an extreme. Not enough to differentiate white and wight or when and wen, but I differentiate whether and weather and what and watt.


----------



## MarcB

In the US you can hear both (hw) and (w) outside of the south east,but most people are unaware of what they say unless they are making an effort.


----------



## winklepicker

Hockey13 said:


> What and watt are generally pronounced differently in most places. A watt is named after James Watt whose name was pronounced "wot." I've never heard anyone say "wot" for what.


 
Have you never been to the UK?   What and watt are generally indistinguishable certainly in southern England.


----------



## Not Logged In

winklepicker said:


> Have you never been to the UK?   What and watt are generally indistinguishable certainly in southern England.



Agreed. In fact to make a distinction would sound affected.


----------



## sound shift

As far as I am aware, "what" and "watt" are pronounced identically in the English Midlands too.


----------



## panjandrum

Back at post #2 in this merged thread, se16teddy comments on the geography and includes a link to Wiki on the phonological history of the whine-wine merger .
There is a map showing those parts of the USA where the contrast is strongest, but not a British Isles map. Until such a map turns up, it would probably be reasonable to assume that Scotland and much of Ireland is in the purple.


----------



## NickJunior

I thought I have been enunciating my speaking English vocabulary words fairly accurately. In fact, native English speakers rarely have to ask me for a second repeat. However, someone has told me that I don't enunciate my *wh digraph* correctly. So I run to this wonderful language forum to seek all of your help again.

As a rule, I read the words *who* _as hoo_, *what* _as wat_, *where* _as w'ere_, *why* _as wy_, *white* _as wite_, *whoopee* _as woopee_


My question is when I do I read *wh* as [h], [hw] (very difficult for my tongue adaptation), and as [w].

I would appreciate your kind help and resource very much.


----------



## Gordonedi

I don't think that you have a problem with your pronunciation.  All of the illustrations you have given are perfectly acceptable for everyday communication, and you will be understood.  Purists will tell you that you should recognise and pronounce the h in what, why and white.  When speaking formally this may be necessary, but in general it is not done.

So keep going as you are !


----------



## NickJunior

Gordonedi said:


> I don't think that you have a problem with your pronunciation. All of the illustrations you have given are perfectly acceptable for everyday communication, and you will be understood. Purists will tell you that you should recognise and pronounce the h in what, why and white. When speaking formally this may be necessary, but in general it is not done.
> 
> So keep going as you are !


 
Thank you for your kind encouragement.


----------



## OldLineStater

No one says the 'h' in any of those words (besides "who"), unless they speak in a really affected manner (in the States, at least).


----------



## QsQ

Hello.. 

I've searched in my Oxford dictionary, and i found that according to their trasncription, all words beginning with "wh" are pronouced /w/ except the following: whew, who, compound words starting with who (whoever...), whole, compound words starting with whole (wholegrain..), whom and compound words starting with whom.

Always /w/,, and /h/ for the exceptions..


----------



## rodoke

There are certain English dialects which pronounce _wh_ differently from _w_, but the majority don't. Moreover, most speakers of those dialects are (painfully) aware of that fact. So unless you're trying to emulate one of these dialects, you have nothing to worry about. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is either a deluded pedant or a bigot.


----------



## Marty10001

Have a listen to http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/Pronounce.aspx


----------



## panjandrum

There are parts of the world where were and where do not sound the same, we can tell white from wight, why does not sound like Y - where the h in where is pronounced naturally and by everybody.
It is not formal, not affected, and I don't know anyone who has ever claimed to have been painfully aware of the fact in the midst of those who don't distinguish.  It's a non-issue.

<<Today's thread has been added to the earlier posts on the same topic. Please read these to save those of us who posted from having to say the same thing again.>>


----------



## panjandrum

QsQ said:


> Hello..
> 
> I've searched in my Oxford dictionary, and i found that according to their trasncription, all words beginning with "wh" are pronouced /w/ except the following: whew, who, compound words starting with who (whoever...), whole, compound words starting with whole (wholegrain..), whom and compound words starting with whom.
> 
> Always /w/,, and /h/ for the exceptions..


I'm very surprised to hear that.
I just checked the OED and only the "hw..." pronunciation is listed for white, which, what and why.
That's not a total list, just the first four I thought to look up.


----------



## linda_

Anais Ninn said:


> _*Which*_ can be pronouced 'wich (i.e. like _*witch*),_ or ' hwich. Both are correct.
> 
> Anais



Re: The pronunciation of whale
The "wh" in English used to be pronounced as "hw". So "whale" used to be pronounced "hwale". It comes from Anglo-Saxon. Some people still do pronounce them as "hwale" (whale), "hwite" (white) but I think they are now archaic. Strangely, it seems to be mostly people in Scotland who pronounced words beginning with "wh" in this way.

 ------

I'm an EFL teacher from central Scotland. We pronounce /which/ not /hwich/ . I have to say that I have never heard any Scots pronounce the h before the w as is suggested on various occasions on this forum.

As with the other variations between my accent and standard English phonetics (lack of differentiation between /u/ and /u:/ for example) I point out the difference to my students. In this case they usually find my pronunciation helpful as it clarifies the spelling difference.

I hope this input is of some help.


----------



## jamesjiao

I have never heard anyone pronounce any 'wh' words with a digraph here in NZ (with the exception of my Taiwanese acquaintances). _While_ has always been the same as _wile_, _where_ as _wear_, _what_ as _watt_, and _whale_ as _wail_. 

However I agree with the previous posters that the digraph was indeed pronounced some unknown period of time ago. It has all but died out in most parts of English-speaking world.


----------



## panjandrum

I wish people would stop ignoring the fact, stated in several posts above, that the distinction between while and wile, where and were, what and watt, whale and wail is alive, current, active, not archaic, not snobby, not specially articulate, and in use NOW - not "some unknown period of time ago".


----------



## sdgraham

Quote:


> Why should natives have to learn a pronunciation they don't naturally use?


 
Like it or not, the way one speaks one's native language tends to mark his/her place within the class structure and/or educational background (if any).

Obviously, this affects one's social interaction and employment opportunities.


----------



## mplsray

linda_ said:


> Re: The pronunciation of whale
> The "wh" in English used to be pronounced as "hw". So "whale" used to be pronounced "hwale". It comes from Anglo-Saxon. Some people still do pronounce them as "hwale" (whale), "hwite" (white) but I think they are now archaic. Strangely, it seems to be mostly people in Scotland who pronounced words beginning with "wh" in this way.
> 
> ------
> 
> I'm an EFL teacher from central Scotland. We pronounce /which/ not /hwich/ . I have to say that I have never heard any Scots pronounce the h before the w as is suggested on various occasions on this forum.
> 
> As with the other variations between my accent and standard English phonetics (lack of differentiation between /u/ and /u:/ for example) I point out the difference to my students. In this case they usually find my pronunciation helpful as it clarifies the spelling difference.
> 
> I hope this input is of some help.


 
I think there must be some misunderstanding here.

Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged, has the following to say about "\hw\" (from the "Guide to Pronunciation" by Edward Artin, Pronunciation Editor):



> *\hw\* used for the _wh_ of _whet_ by speakers whose _whet_ and _wet_ are not pronounced the same. Some phoneticians regard *\hw\* not as two sounds but as one, a voiceless *\w\*.


 
The rest of the entry makes it clear that the author is not limiting the discussion to American English. The voiceless /w/ (I now use the forward slants used in IPA rather than the back slants used Webster's Third) is something I have encountered extremely rarely. The one book on English pronunciation I can remember having seen it in is the 1919 work _The Pronunciation of Standard English in America_ by linguist George Philip Krapp, where it is represented as an upside-down /w/.

I have to wonder if this is the sort of thing you had in mind when you say that Scots say /which/ not /hwitch/, because, frankly, I can't imagine any speaker of English actually pronouncing a /w/ before an /h/ in "wh-" words.

I have a question to ask, then, in order to attempt to understand the situation. When you listen to Americans say initial "wh-" words, as in the pronunciations for such words given in the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, is the "wh" digraph pretty much pronounced as you would expect a Scot to say it?


----------



## nzfauna

In NZ English, one would generally only ever hear the second example, /wel/.


----------



## Forero

panjandrum said:


> The same Oxford Companion... says:That's not a great deal of help, although it does suggest that these are the only wh- words pronounced /h/.


Also _whooping cough_ (has no _w_ sound).  In fact any _wh_- word with a _u_ or an _o_ after the _wh_ (_whore_, _whole_).  Oops, I pronounce a _w_ in _whoopie cushion_. 

In Little Rock, most of us consistently pronounce initial _wh_ as the inverted _w_, though in a word after a vowel (e.g. in the word _anywhere_), we are less consistent.  

Some people here do sometimes say "wheppons".

In Houston, in our neighbor state Texas, folks pronounce not only _hw_ as _w_ but also _hy_ (e.g. in _human_) as _y_ ("yooman").


----------



## easychen

Hi,

_Wh,_ as in _what_, _when_, _where_, _white_, _whether, _is pronounced _/hw/ _in American dictionaries (I know /_w_/ is also included in these dictionaries, but /_hw_/ is always put first), but in real life, Americans seldom follow /_hw_/, they say /_w_/ instead. I'm very curious about this. Is there any reason for it?

Many thanks!


----------



## natkretep

Mod note: Easychen's question (post 84) has been merged with this thread.


----------



## Forero

easychen said:


> Hi,
> 
> _Wh,_ as in _what_, _when_, _where_, _white_, _whether, _is pronounced _/hw/ _in American dictionaries (I know /_w_/ is also included in these dictionaries, but /_hw_/ is always put first), but in real life, Americans seldom follow /_hw_/, they say /_w_/ instead. I'm very curious about this. Is there any reason for it?
> 
> Many thanks!


My understanding is that the dictionaries are indicating which pronunciation is more common among those who make the distinction, not how common those who make the distinction are.  Nor does it indicate how consistently those who distinguish do so.

Often the distinction weakens or disappears because of the phonetic environment.  For example, _what_ will generally be pronounced with plain _w_ where _how_ is pronounced with a weak or missing _h_ sound.


----------



## timpeac

Forero said:


> My understanding is that the dictionaries are indicating which pronunciation is more common among those who make the distinction, not how common those who make the distinction are.  Nor does it indicate how consistently those who distinguish do so.
> 
> Often the distinction weakens or disappears because of the phonetic environment.  For example, _what_ will generally be pronounced with plain _w_ where _how_ is pronounced with a weak or missing _h_ sound.


I agree. Dictionaries tell you the range of possibilities - they don't tell you how likely they are. It seems a certain number of Americans pronounce "hw" when appropriate - but you need to know (as you already do easychen) that most people simply say "w" in these cases.


----------



## mplsray

I would like to point out that the editors of the Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary have a method of indicating a pronunciation which is "appreciably less common than the preceding variant." They precede the less frequent pronunciation with the word "also." (Example, alloy.) They have a method of indicating an "even less common" pronunciation. They precede it with the word "sometimes." (Example, inveigle.) In both cases, the variant pronunciation is considered equally standard to the first pronunciation.

The /hw/ and /w/ pronunciations of words containing "wh" do not fall into either category. They are pronounced by roughly the same percentage of standard speakers of American English, according to the rules given by the editors, and the pronunciations they used are based upon actual evidence of pronunciation.

The above comments are based upon page 12a ("Explanatory Notes/Pronunciation/Variant Pronunciations") and page 33a ("Guide to Pronunciation") of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th ed. Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary is a form of the Collegiate.


----------



## Keith Bradford

Scots, Northern Irish and others may well regret the fact that the rest of us ignore the _w/wh _distinction.  But we gain in humour by dropping the aspiration.  For instance:

A: How do you get two elephants in a Mini?
B: I don't know.
A: One in the front and one in the back!  How do you get two whales in a Mini?
B: One in the front and one in the back?
A: No, you take the motorway west from London, that's how you get to Wales in a Mini.

I guess this joke is impossible north of the border?  And the first scene of _Fawlty Towers: Communication problems _with its brilliant sequence that begins:

Manuel: _Qué _- what.
Mrs Richards: K - what?
Manuel: _Si! Qué _- what.
Mrs R: C.K. Watt?  Is he the manager?

... does that fall flat in south-east USA?


----------



## wandle

Growing up in Liverpool, I was taught at an independent school that the 'h' in 'wh-' should always be pronounced and that not to do so was a sign of an ill-educated or slovenly person.
On moving  to London, I was surprised to find how many people not only dropped the 'h', but would also make 'whales' and 'Wales' rhyme with 'wells': all with, to a Northern ear, a clear Cockney intonation.


----------



## pob14

Forero said:


> Also _whooping cough_ (has no _w_ sound).


This surprised me; I don't remember ever hearing anyone say "hooping cough."  I notice that Merriam has that as the first pronunciation of "whoop," which surprises me even more.  I was wondering; for the word "whoop" (as in, _The cheerleaders let out a war whoop when the team scored a touchdown_), would you pronounce that "hoop" as well?  That would sound very strange to me. I wonder if this is a regional difference.


----------



## pob14

Keith Bradford said:


> Scots, Northern Irish and others may well regret the fact that the rest of us ignore the _w/wh _distinction. But we gain in humour by dropping the aspiration. For instance:
> 
> A: How do you get two elephants in a Mini?
> B: I don't know.
> A: One in the front and one in the back! How do you get two whales in a Mini?
> B: One in the front and one in the back?
> A: No, you take the motorway west from London, that's how you get to Wales in a Mini.



For the US, see Groucho Marx, addressing (the rather large) Margaret Dumont (in which film I cannot remember):

_You remind me of the Prince of Wales.  I don't mean the present Prince of Wales, I mean one of the old Wales, and when I say Wales, I mean whales._


----------



## PaulQ

pob14 said:


> This surprised me; I don't remember ever hearing anyone say "hooping cough."  I notice that Merriam has that as the first pronunciation of "whoop," which surprises me even more.  I was wondering; for the word "whoop" (as in, _The cheerleaders let out a war whoop when the team scored a touchdown_), would you pronounce that "hoop" as well?  That would sound very strange to me. I wonder if this is a regional difference.


I remember being very young and knowing "*whooping cough*" as spoken words, pronounced* hooping cough*. When I first saw it written down, I was sure a mistake had been made or that it was some archaic spelling.

However, and paradoxically, whoop is woop.


----------



## Forero

pob14 said:


> This surprised me; I don't remember ever hearing anyone say "hooping cough."  I notice that Merriam has that as the first pronunciation of "whoop," which surprises me even more.  I was wondering; for the word "whoop" (as in, _The cheerleaders let out a war whoop when the team scored a touchdown_), would you pronounce that "hoop" as well?  That would sound very strange to me. I wonder if this is a regional difference.


Yes, I would pronounce that _whoop_ as "hoop" as well, with "oo" as in _food_, but the _whoop_ that means something like "trounce"/"wallop" I pronounce as "hwoop" with "oo" as in _foot_.


----------



## Copperknickers

I've never heard anyone pronounce the h in what, in fact it's impossible without using some kind of Indo-Arabic aspiration. Some people pronounce it 'hwat' or 'fwat', but that is hardly 'correct', since it is not spelled that way. I have never heard anyone in Scotland do this, except when they are shouting it, in which case it has an almost 'loch'-like sound. For example:

'I heard someone smashed your car window'
'Chwat! You're joking!'


----------



## JamesM

Copperknickers said:


> I've never heard anyone pronounce the h in what, in fact it's impossible without using some kind of Indo-Arabic aspiration.



That's my impression as well.  I have a friend who pronounces the "h".  He assumed he was pronouncing the letters in order, but when I asked him to slow the word down he realized he was saying "hoo-wut", not "wuh-hut".  



> Some people pronounce it 'hwat' or 'fwat', but that is hardly 'correct', since it is not spelled that way.



Ah, but a long time ago it was.  (I think I learned that in this thread years ago... yes, panjandrum mentions it on page one.)



			
				Online Etymology Dictionary said:
			
		

> what
> O.E. *hw*æt, from P.Gmc. *khwat



Perhaps it's still carried on as a tradition in some speech.


----------



## mplsray

Copperknickers said:


> I've never heard anyone pronounce the h in what, in fact it's impossible without using some kind of Indo-Arabic aspiration. Some people pronounce it 'hwat' or 'fwat', but that is hardly 'correct', since it is not spelled that way. I have never heard anyone in Scotland do this, except when they are shouting it, in which case it has an almost 'loch'-like sound. For example:
> 
> 'I heard someone smashed your car window'
> 'Chwat! You're joking!'



Just so that I'm clear on what you are saying, are you claiming that there is no place in the English speaking world where _wine_ and _whine_ are not identically pronounced? Or are you claiming that there are such regions, but that /hw/ is a misleading way of representing the difference between the sound /w/ and the sound which most dictionaries which use a variation of the International Phonetic Alphabet do indeed represent by /hw/ (including the Oxford English Dictionary)?


----------



## jarabina

There seems to be some confusion as to what /hw/ represents. Strictly speaking, I think the IPA /ʍ/ is much less confusing.
However, both of them are used to represent the Scottish pronunciation of 'wh' in 'what'.

See here: http://www.soundcomparisons.com//

Click on Scotland & Ireland down the left hand side and then standard scottish and you can listen to 'what'.


----------



## Copperknickers

mplsray said:


> Just so that I'm clear on what you are saying, are you claiming that there is no place in the English speaking world where _wine_ and _whine_ are not identically pronounced? Or are you claiming that there are such regions, but that /hw/ is a misleading way of representing the difference between the sound /w/ and the sound which most dictionaries which use a variation of the International Phonetic Alphabet do indeed represent by /hw/ (including the Oxford English Dictionary)?



If there is a region where wine and whine are prounounced differently, I haven't been to it, and therefore Scotland is not one of them. I know for a fact that I do not pronounce what 'hwat', nor does anyone I know, except the really posh people.


----------



## panjandrum

Copperknickers said:


> If there is a region where wine and whine are prounounced differently, I haven't been to it, and therefore Scotland is not one of them. I know for a fact that I do not pronounce what 'hwat', nor does anyone I know, except the really posh people.


Most of the Scottish natives I have been in contact with over the decades make a very clear distinction between whine and wine, just as we do on this side of the Irish Sea.
Please listen to the pronunciation in the link given in post #98 (which is included in the resources thread at the top of this forum).
The available evidence suggests that Copperknickers has been listening to a very select set of Scots.


----------



## timpeac

panjandrum said:


> Most of the Scottish natives I have been in contact with over the decades make a very clear distinction between whine and wine, just as we do on this side of the Irish Sea.
> Please listen to the pronunciation in the link given in post #98 (which is included in the resources thread at the top of this forum).
> The available evidence suggests that Copperknickers has been listening to a very select set of Scots.


This is my experience too. The concept of a "hw" pronunciation never crossed my mind before I met Scottish and Irish people at university. I remember even discussing with an Irish guy who had travelled extensively in Germany how they were dismayed to notice he made this distinction which their teacher had told them was obsolete.


----------



## Pedro y La Torre

panjandrum said:


> Most of the Scottish natives I have been in contact with over the decades make a very clear distinction between whine and wine, just as we do on this side of the Irish Sea.
> Please listen to the pronunciation in the link given in post #98 (which is included in the resources thread at the top of this forum).
> The available evidence suggests that Copperknickers has been listening to a very select set of Scots.



Yes, I agree. I certainly pronounce it as "hwat", which I suspect was the only pronunciation around when the language was first brought to Ireland back in the 12th century. I also (generally) make the distinction between "whine" and "wine''. I have equally heard "hwat" out of the mouths of Glasweigans, working-class, and otherwise.


----------



## darksoda

in the british pronunce is  weɪl http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/whale?q=whale and in the american pronunce is hweɪl http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/american-english/whale?q=whale but the word seems similar to well or is just impression ???


----------



## Cagey

darksoda said:


> in the british pronunce is  weɪl http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/whale?q=whale and in the american pronunce is hweɪl http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/american-english/whale?q=whale but the word seems similar to well or is just impression ???


Please clarify your question, darksoda.  Are you asking whether the British pronunciation of _whale_ sounds like the word _well_?


----------



## darksoda

after search the homophone for whale could be wale ?? and whale and wale are not simmilar pronunce of well???


----------



## JamesM

darksoda said:


> after search the homophone for whale could be wale ?? and whale and wale are not simmilar pronunce of well???



Not in my accent.  The difference between wale and well is the same difference between: sale/sell, bale/bell, tale/tell, dale/dell, fail/fell.  None of these are homophones for me. 



> in the british pronunce is weɪl http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict.../whale?q=whale and in the american pronunce is hweɪl http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict.../whale?q=whale



No, not all Americans distinguish between whale and wale, only some.  Please read the posts above.


----------



## Keith Bradford

Darksoda, I think the answer is that you must get used to listening to more English.  If two sounds aren't distinguished in your mother-tongue, it takes a long time to actually hear the difference in another language.  For instance, English people often can't hear the difference between a French é and è; Chinese people have problems distinguishing R and L.

So I'm guessing that there is no difference in Portuguese between the sounds /ail/ and /el/ ???  "Practice makes perfect."


----------



## darksoda

thanks for answer i think i got the end of  the le in the end is kind el of the spanish, in portuguese there is two sounds of E like e and é sometimes this can be confuse.


----------



## darksoda

please, can someone explain to me the diference between the way of pronounce of whale and wale???


----------



## yuechu

> _Wh,_ as in _what_, _when_, _where_, _white_, _whether, _is pronounced _/hw/ _in American dictionaries (I know /_w_/ is also included in these dictionaries, but /_hw_/ is always put first), but in real life, Americans seldom follow /_hw_/, they say /_w_/ instead. I'm very curious about this. Is there any reason for it?



Distinguishing /hw/ from /w/ used to be the standard form in American English (spoken by most people in the media). It arguably is still standard and is definitely correct, but you rarely hear it in most American media nowadays (at least I almost never hear it.. ). If you watch any American TV show/radio broadcast/film from the 1960s or earlier, you will hear it extremely frequently regardless of which part of the country they came from (although of course it must have been more common in those from the South). When I first heard it on Irish/1950s American TV, I thought it was a non-standard/dialect pronunciation, not realizing that it is the historical standard! I imagine that the pronunciation was perhaps even taught in schools before.. ?


----------



## mplsray

baosheng said:


> Distinguishing /hw/ from /w/ used to be the standard form in American English (spoken by most people in the media). It arguably is still standard and is definitely correct, but you rarely hear it in most American media nowadays (at least I almost never hear it.. ). If you watch any American TV show/radio broadcast/film from the 1960s or earlier, you will hear it extremely frequently regardless of which part of the country they came from (although of course it must have been more common in those from the South). When I first heard it on Irish/1950s American TV, I thought it was a non-standard/dialect pronunciation, not realizing that it is the historical standard! I imagine that the pronunciation was perhaps even taught in schools before.. ?



It was indeed taught in schools. Earlier in this thread I mentioned _The Pronunciation of Standard English in America_ (1919) by linguist George Philip Krapp. About the pronunciation of "wh" he wrote in section 372 (I have replaced the symbol he used for this sound, an upside-down w, with hw):


> This sound is the voiceless equivalent of [w], and is generally pronounced wherever written *wh,* as in ... *wheat* [hwi:t], *whit* [hwIt],[and] *white* [hwaIt].... Some speakers, however, pronounce all these voiceless sounds voiced, as in *whit* [wIt] not distinguished from *wit, white* [waIt] not distinguished from *wight.* Though not vulgarisms, such pronunciations are usually discountenanced by careful speakers and in formal instruction. In standard British speech of the Southern type *w* and *wh* are generally both pronounced as [w].


----------



## bennymix

panjandrum said:


> Indeed I didn't forget you, jokker, nor river either
> Of course if you could arrange for your compatriots to come along with the /hw/ pronunciation - we could outnumber the rest of them in no time.
> 
> As a matter of interest, would the /hw/ -> /w/ merger apply to singers in the parts of the world where /hw/ has vanished? (I mean proper singers, the kind that enunciate words clearly.)  Voice coaches are especially fussy about clear articulation and often require singers to over-articulate in order to communicate effectively at a distance.



I'm with you, pan.   And I don't think it's just Southern US, as in Old South.   I grew up in Southern California.   My name also includes 'wh' .   With no 'h' it's  a different name, just like the difference between John Whales and John Wales.


----------



## kentix

I think it would be exhausting to do all that huffing and puffing.  

I happily pronounce all of them as w's.


----------



## Forero

No huffing or puffing. Just a little less of a push from the lungs and no involvement from the vocal folds.

Like [f] compared with [v].


----------



## dojibear

I live by 2 rules (of English usage):

(1) There are no rules for "how to pronounce a written word" in English. Instead, children are taught how to spell spoken words.

(2) You pronounce proper names the way the person (whose name it is) wishes. If you don't know, you can guess or you can ask.

My surname (which is from England) has 3 common pronunciations. My family uses the least common of the 3. That means that people who've only seem my name in writing (for example a nurse, calling the next patient) usually guess wrong.


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## kalamazoo

I'm from California and don't distinguish wine from whine.  However, I feel like I have a very faint aspiration in some of these words , like 'everywhere,'  but it's not an important part of my accent.

People very often pronounce my unusual last name wrong.  This has always struck me as strange because except for the initial letters, my name is exactly like several ordinary words in English, but people pronounce my name differently from the way they pronounce those ordinary words.


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## bennymix

kalamazoo said:


> I'm from California and don't distinguish wine from whine.  However, I feel like I have a very faint aspiration in some of these words , like 'everywhere,'  but it's not an important part of my accent.



Northern or Southern?


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## Cenzontle

My insight about "wh-" vs. "w-":
American English speakers who don't hear the difference
tend to ignore the "J-" of Spanish names beginning with "Jua-" or "Joa-".
Thus "Juan" is often [wɑn], "(Ciudad) Juárez" is [wɔɹ'ɛz], and "San Joaquín" is [sᴂn wɑ'kin]


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## kalamazoo

Northern.  And after reviewing my pronunciation, I think I do insert an "h" sound in words like 'where' but it's very faint.


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## bennymix

kalamazoo said:


> Northern.  And after reviewing my pronunciation, I think I do insert an "h" sound in words like 'where' but it's very faint.



Some of the phonetic transcriptions recognize that it's not quite the breath of the full 'h'.

Collins:  
*where*

 (hweəʳ  )
Where definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary


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