# The etymology of 'sense'



## ThomasK

Is there anyone who ventures upon a root meaning (if that exists) of the word 'sense'? I believe etymonline refers to some kind of going, a Dutch etymological dictionary says the word had a lot of meanings at a very early stage already, etc. But is there some way of determining a root meaning ?


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## Alxmrphi

ThomasK said:


> [...] a Dutch etymological dictionary says the word had a lot of meanings at a very early stage already, etc. [...]


The English word? The Dutch word?
I am guessing the English word, but "Dutch etymological dictionary" to me would be about Dutch words, not English ones, so wanted to check.


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## ThomasK

I meant the word/root that is the basis of those two and others, as I believe they share a common root. LMy question then is: what is 'ultimately' the root meaning of that 'root' (...) ?


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## Alxmrphi

ThomasK said:


> I meant the word/root that is the basis of those two and others, as I believe they share a common root. LMy question then is: what is 'ultimately' the root meaning of that 'root' (...) ?


Ah ok, knowing that Italian has "senso" for the word "sense" I assumed English had borrowed it, and it wasn't a common Germanic root.
Did Dutch borrow it as well? What's the dutch word for "sense" ?


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## ThomasK

The Dutch word is 'zin', sounding about the same as German 'Sinn' (and I am sure, very much like Skandinavian words for 'sense'): pgm. _*sinna, _I found. The 'sense' words do seem borrowed from French/ Romanic languages, in my view, but I find some common root like pie. _*senh2-... _I'd be interested to hear about the meanings you find given to the root (and the evolution of other meanings from that one).


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## ancalimon

I don't know if it would help finding the root of the word but in Turkish "to sense : sez-mek" and "san-mak" (mek,mak : to)

SENSE : SEZ (for example: to sense a danger, instinct, perception, to feel something real or imaginary without seeing with eyes)
SENSE:  SAN (for example: to think, believe or assume that something is there but in reality it might not be there at all)

There are some other similar words in Turkish which are related to "SENSE".  "SAN~: to sense things, to feel an idea, to wonder, think about the possibility of something happening, hallucinate, to dream"  "SAZ (Persian?):music,stringed instrument"  "SÖZ: word"  "SES:sound,voice"  "HİS (Arabic?):sense,feel,feeling"  "İZ~:to track something, to watch, to see"  "SİS: mist,smoke"  "ÖZ~: self, gist, essence, to miss someone"

The relation is this: 
OZAN : BARD  (AN:the one)  (OZ:the form of human entity between existence and existing as a soul)

An OZAN was believed to go into trance through self hypnosis and using his feelings together with his SAZ (musical instrument), SES (sound,voice), SÖZ (word,lyrics) sang songs about the past and the future.

Also a shamans spirit was believed to change into "OZ" form when he/she was _consulting the spirits_ after he/she went into trance (probably through usage of hallucinogens). It was believed that a human soul can not find its way on its own and it needed a spirit horse. But a shaman could change into OZ form and that way he/she could find its way to higher planes. He flew through these planes freely in OZ form hence the Turkish word "ÖZGÜR:FREE" came to life.

Although I gave the above information, I think the source root of the Turkish SEZ and SAN could be:

SEN:YOU ( second person singular)  and YOU : SİZ (second-person plural  or  formal, loved one second-person)

In my opinion the words were created when a human saw another human being  and called him/her SEN-SİZ   (still I think finding the source of a word such as this is probably not possible at all)

There might be other languages in which some of these words are related with each other.


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## ThomasK

I must say: I like the kind of exploration you venture upon. It seems fascinating and somehow quite interesting. But I guess the scientific basis will be found lacking. From a philosophical-theological perspective though one could of course say that the I/you relationship is basic, a fundament (I think of Buber and Lévinas), but from a strictly scientific point of view I am afraid your view will turn out to be unsubstantiated. 

In Dutch the pronouns *ik/jij *don't seem to sustain your hypothesis. But I am going to save it because it is nice as such.


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## berndf

Pokorny has _`eine Richtung nehmen, gehen' und im geistigen Sinne `empfinden, wahrnehmen'_ (_to take a direction, go; to feel_) as the root meaning of PIE _*sent-_.



Alxmrphi said:


> Ah ok, knowing that Italian has "senso" for the word "sense" I assumed English had borrowed it, and it wasn't a common Germanic root.
> Did Dutch borrow it as well? What's the dutch word for "sense" ?


The English word is of French origin while the German and Dutch words are of common Germanic origin. The Scandinavian word is probably a German loan. The French word is a blend of the Latin and the Germanic word, hence the meaning _sens=direction_ in French, a meaning not present in the Latin word _sensus_.

I guess the loss of the meaning _direction_ in the modern German/Dutch words show Latin/Romance influence. The original meanings is preserved in the related verb _senden _(German), _to send _(English).


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## Barsac

The french word "sens" is of latin origin "sensus". The latin word means  "sense" (the five senses) at origin. The french word has the same meaning. But the original meaning has been enlarged to "sentiment", feeling.  I suppose that this sideslipping comes from the expression "bon sens = good sense". When you have good eyes, good ears, you have "des bons sens", you understand well ! And you can have good feelings. The third meaning of the french word (sens = geographical direction) appeared during the 12th century.


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## berndf

Barsac said:


> The third meaning of the french word (sens = geographical direction) appeared during the 12th century.


As a merger of OF _sen = way, direction_ (a Germanic loan) and _sens = sense_ (see here; etymological notes at the bottom of the page).

EDIT: I didn't find a way to produce a permanent link. The link above is dead. Use this instead.


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## ThomasK

berndf said:


> I guess the loss of the meaning _direction_ in the modern German/Dutch words show Latin/Romance influence. The original meanings is preserved in the related verb _senden _(German), _to send _(English).



I wonder though: westill have the meaning 'direction' in Dutch: i_n gunstige zin_, in a favourable sense; _in tegenwijzerzin_, against the time sense/direction, said of hands of a clock. But I agree:not in a literal sense.


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## berndf

ThomasK said:


> I wonder though: westill have the meaning 'direction' in Dutch: i_n gunstige zin_, in a favourable sense; _in tegenwijzerzin_, against the time sense/direction, said of hands of a clock. But I agree:not in a literal sense.


Actually, you are right. Some of the modern uses of _Sinn/zin_ indeed seem to reflect the meaning _direction_.


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## miguel89

berndf said:


> http://www.indo-european.nl/cgi-bin/startq.cgi?flags=endnnnl&root=leiden&basename=\data\ie\pokornyThe French word is a blend of the Latin and the Germanic word, hence the meaning _sens=direction_ in French, a meaning not present in the Latin word _sensus_.
> 
> I guess the loss of the meaning _direction_ in the modern German/Dutch words show Latin/Romance influence.


But in Spanish _sentido _has the meaning of direction. Also Germanic influence?


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## ThomasK

I wonder whether feeling, sensing, could be the origin, as Barsac suggests. Interesting to read that the direction meaning only turns up later !


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## berndf

ThomasK said:


> I wonder whether feeling, sensing, could be the origin, as Barsac suggests. Interesting to read that the direction meaning only turns up later !


I have the impression you didn't quite understand the explanations given so far. In Romance languages _to feel, to perceive_ is of course the "original" meaning because this was the meaning in Latin (most Germanic loans entered French after the Frankish conquest, like probably _sen_ which existed before the 12th century; only the indistinguishably in spelling from _sens_ is 12th century, according to TLFi). But the Latin word _sensus_ itself has a history and a PIE etymon.

 The question is: What was the origin meaning of this PIE etymon?

To approach this question we are looking at cognates in other IE language. The Germanic word meaning _way, direction_ is neither older nor younger than the Latin word, they are derived from the same PIE origin. As quoted in #8 above, Pokorny thinks that PIE _*sent-_ contained both meanings, in Etymonline we find only _to travel, to go_ as the original meaning.


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## ThomasK

I am sorry, it is early morning and I have not been able to focus well on the different contributions.


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## erased

The english word "sense" come from Latin sensus. Sensus ,which has a lot of meanings,means also "meaning".  If you get a look to english definitions  http://www.wordreference.com/definition/sense You ll discover that 5 on 6 meanings come from Latin,only  "5 chiefly Mathematics & Physics the property distinguishing two opposite but otherwise identical things, e.g. motion in opposite directions. " has a potential link with German. When i say "in what sense?" i m saying "in what meaning?" ,i m not saying " in what direction?". "The sentence make sense" i m saying " the sentence has a meaning",i m not saying "the sentence has a direction". Same thing happens in french,spanish etc etc. But it is necessary underline  "The third meaning of the french word (sens = geographical direction) appeared during the 12th century. " "Only the indistinguishably in spelling from sens is 12th century, according to TLFi)" This could mean that there was a mutual influence (? i don t know how and if latin influenced germanic languages),so for example in French  "le mot a un double sens" (from latin) "la route a un double sens"(from german) So we could synthesize,when sense has the meaning of "direction" then it comes from german ,when sense has the meaning of "meaning" it comes from latin.


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## ThomasK

I hope I am more awake now, but I really wonder if sense and direction, as, er, concepts, are not more closely related. I can only substantiate that claim by referring to synonyms such as signification, and Bedeutung in German. I think 'making signs' implies pointing, i.e., showing a direction (the way you have to look to understand what we mean), and 'Bedeutung' contains 'deuten', which is literally pointing). I read [parts of...]two books where pointing, literally and figuratively, is claimed to be typical of man, and play a role in language acquisition (c.q. meaning). ONe of the them is Richard Tallis's _Michelangelo's Finger_. The other is Rik  Smits, Dageraad. Hoe taal de mens maakte [_Dawn. How Language created Man_]. One quote from a summary: 



> Zo houdt bijvoorbeeld de hoeksteen van het taalvermogen - de neiging tot benoemen - verband met aanwijzen en richten. [Thus the corner stone of language command - the inclination to name things/ to give names to things - is connected with pointing and directing]


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## Outsider

ThomasK said:


> I hope I am more awake now, but I really wonder if sense and direction, as, er, concepts, are not more closely related.


"Sense" is an ambiguous word. It would be better to ask whether "meaning" (or "reason") and "direction" are related concepts.


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## ThomasK

Outsider said:


> "Sense" is an ambiguous word. It would be better to ask whether "meaning" (or "reason") and "direction" are related concepts.



Isn't that about the same?


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## Outsider

"Sense" can mean both "meaning" and "direction", as has been pointed out in this thread. The latter two words are more specific.


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## berndf

ThomasK said:


> Isn't that about the same?


If it were we wouldn't be having this discussion.


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## mataripis

It adds importance and meaning! Tagalog has "Saysay"  (it makes sense)


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## ThomasK

berndf said:


> If it were we wouldn't be having this discussion.


I agree: I was too quick (again). I wonder in the meantime how you all feel about the pointing business as a kind of underlying link: direction could become or no, be meaning, simply.


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## berndf

ThomasK said:


> I agree: I was too quick (again). I wonder in the meantime how you all feel about the pointing business as a kind of underlying link: direction could become or no, be meaning, simply.


For the German word_ Bedeutung_: yes; for the English word _sense_ in the sense of _meaning_: no. The origin of this use of the word _sense_ seems to be _sens=direction_. I am not aware of any connection to a meaning which includes the notion of_ pointing_.


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## ThomasK

I agree in that respect.(And I thought of _signification _in French, where pointing might be implied)). However, you are referring to the etymology in the strict sense, whereas mhypothesis (or Smits's) has to do with some underlying ambiguity of the word 'sense', almost at the root level of the, er, concept: direction, as pointing ('directing'), constituting some kind of meaning as such (just like referential pronouns getting their meaning by the reference). Or is that too far-fetched?


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## berndf

ThomasK said:


> I agree in that respect.(And I thought of _signification _in French, where pointing might be implied)). However, you are referring to the etymology in the strict sense, whereas mhypothesis (or Smits's) has to do with some underlying ambiguity of the word 'sense', almost at the root level of the, er, concept: direction, as pointing ('directing'), constituting some kind of meaning as such (just like referential pronouns getting their meaning by the reference). Or is that too far-fetched?


I don't think the concept is ambiguous, just the word is. I don't think anyone will have problems distinguishing the different meanings of _sense _in the sentences
_Staying in the wild sharpened all his senses.
What he said made no sense.
_The original word developed in different directions is different IE languages. As we have established, the English word is a merger of some of the results of these different development. This also explains the conceptual relatedness of these different meaning. But this does not imply that the concepts are ambiguous.


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## erased

ThomasK said:


> I agree in that respect.(And I thought of _signification _in French, where pointing might be implied)). However, you are referring to the etymology in the strict sense, whereas mhypothesis (or Smits's) has to do with some underlying ambiguity of the word 'sense', almost at the root level of the, er, concept: direction, as pointing ('directing'), constituting some kind of meaning as such (just like referential pronouns getting their meaning by the reference). Or is that too far-fetched?


  well,if you like to play with hypotheses,there is ,in ancient Greek,a verb σημαίνω (semaino) which means "to mean" but also " to indicate" "to give a signal" ,this verb (the dictionary indicates that comes from the word σημα (sema) doric σαμα  (there is on accent on the η) which means signal,root σημ- (sem-) ). (Maybe related with semantics?). The dictionay doesnt explain from where comes from σημα but it indicates a reference to a sanscrit document ,or part of it,called dhyama.What is missing ,it is a link between the Greek and Latin/German. Sensus on Latin should come from sent-ire, but the dictionary doesnt explain its origin.


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## ThomasK

I think I understand your point, Berndf, but I did not mean 'ambiguity' in a negative sense, rather something like a root, able to develop in different ways, or senses ;-). 

Thanks for the hint to σημαίνω, that seems worth the while. 

As for any hypotheses: I think there is no 'danger', as long as we realize they are hypotheses!


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## berndf

Almost every concept can be developed in almost every direction or sense. I don't find this particularly noteworthy. What I find interesting is why a particular word has a particular bundle of senses and not others.


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## Perseas

erased said:


> well,if you like to play with hypotheses,there is ,in ancient Greek,a verb σημαίνω (semaino) which means "to mean" but also " to indicate" "to give a signal" ,this verb (the dictionary indicates that comes from the word σημα (sema) doric σαμα  (there is on accent on the η) which means signal,root σημ- (sem-) ). (Maybe related with semantics? *YES*). The dictionay doesnt explain from where comes from σημα but it indicates a reference to a sanscrit document ,or part of it,called dhyama.What is missing ,it is a link between the Greek and Latin/German. Sensus on Latin should come from sent-ire, but the dictionary doesnt explain its origin.


In Greek the word for sense (five senses) is αίσθ-ηση {esθisi}. The verb is αισθ-άνομαι {esθάnome}. 
_Σημαίνω (< σήμα)_ is a different word and means exactly as you have posted.


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