# I will swim to Japan



## maybe4ever

I was studying a few Japanese particles yesterday and the way I like to learn is by making up funny hypothetical situations.

So if I was wanting to say I will swim to Japan, in Japanese, would I say this:

Nihon ni oyogu.

For instance, say I was in Hawaii and decided I was going to swim to Japan, I would say that, correct?

If I were to say, "Nihon e oyogu", this would mean, I will swim _towards_ Japan [though I may end up in thailand instead], correct?  


Also, If I said, "Nihon de oyogu", this would mean sometihing like, I will swim _in_ Japan, correct?


I'm wondering if I've learned these particles correctly or not, though.  So any help would be appreciated.


----------



## I_like_my_TV

> I'm wondering if I've learned these particles correctly or not, though.


As far as the particles are concerned, you've done well. However, "Nihon ni oyogu" and "Nihon e oyogu" are not natural Japanese. You have to say something like _"going somethere by way of swimming"_, thus: _"Nihon ni oyoide iku"_ and _"Nihon e oyoide iku"_ (_oyoide_ is the _te_-form of _oyogu_)


----------



## cheshire

Or 「日本へ向けて泳ぐ」「日本の方角に泳ぐ」「日本に向かって泳ぐ」「日本を目指して泳ぐ」.

It's difficult to explain, but you can't somehow use 「に」 nor 「へ」 with most of the verbs.

You know, verbs such as 行く、来る、派遣する、送る、紹介する、導入する、輸入する、輸出する、伝播する、留学する、通う　can accompany either of those particles, but SOMEHOW we can't with other verbs. I'm trying to find the reason, and hope other forer@ will help me with this endeaver.


----------



## Flaminius

Probably just an idea but I think the goal marker (_-ni _in Japanese) can be used only with motion verbs.  By motion verbs, I mean intransitive verbs to express movement of the subject from a start to a goal.  *cheshire *has listed some (or "most", I believe motion verbs are limited) of them in Japanese (I marked them in blue).



> 行く、来る、派遣する、送る、紹介する、導入する、輸入する、輸出する、伝播する、留学する、通う


I have never thought of this difference between Japanese and English, but _oyogu_ is not a motion verb.    A replacement by *I_like_my_TV* uses _iku_ as the main verb, which okays _-ni_, and _oyoide_ as an adverbial element that indicates the method of the movement.


----------



## cheshire

Excellent explanation as always, Flaminius.
I agree those verbs are all motion verbs, but in my opinion, they are all motion verbs, blue and green ones.
To be precise, the green ones can work as motion verbs, and sometimes they don't require either place (starting point or goal point). For example, in the sentence 新ウィンドウズを導入した, you don't have to add the place the Windows was introduced FROM, nor the place the Windows was introduced TO. It's completely optional. You can say also, 新ウィンドウズをアメリカから導入した、新ウィンドウズをオフィスに導入した。新ウィンドウズをアメリカから日本のオフィスに導入した。Same thing can be true for the blue verbs.


----------



## I_like_my_TV

Although we agree that the verb "oyogu" doesn't work in "Nihon ni oyogu" and "Nihon e oyogu", what I find interesting is, by some slight modifications, such structures would become more acceptable:

ここに泳いで見て！
そこへ泳いで見て！

How do you explain this? Could it be that "oyogu" is not a motion verb when long distances are concerned but can be regarded as a motion verb within limited distances or confined locations?


----------



## cheshire

I_like_my_TV said:


> Although we agree that the verb "oyogu" doesn't work in "Nihon ni oyogu" and "Nihon e oyogu", what I find interesting is, by some slight modifications, such structures would become more acceptable:
> 
> ここに泳いで見て！
> そこへ泳いで見て！
> 
> How do you explain this? Could it be that "oyogu" is not a motion verb when long distances are concerned but can be regarded as a motion verb within limited distances or confined locations?


 ここに泳いで見て！
 そこへ泳いで見て！
 ここ*まで*泳いで*み*て！

1. This 「みる」 ("to try," "一下"in Chinese) is different from 見る　("to see"). Etymologically, the former must have come from the latter, but they are no longer considered the same words. For this, refer to the Wikipedia article of 文法化　"glamaticalization." There is a rule: grammaticalized words must not be written in kanji. This is not completely obeyed, though. You find the rule broken from time to time.

2. As みる in this case is not a regular verb but an auxiliary verb, you should look at the main verb 泳ぐ. It's not a motion verb. Thus we can't use に or で there.


----------



## maybe4ever

Thank you everyone, for helping to clear this up.

It is intersting, that in Japanese, 泳ぐ, is not a verb of motion, and that there are few true verbs of motion in Japanese.

I will study some more, to make sure I have this firmly ingrained in my mind.

Thanks again


----------



## cheshire

＊江ノ島へ泳ぐ
＊江ノ島に泳ぐ

I'm sorry, at first glance it looked wrong, but they may be used.


----------



## Flaminius

Well, but you have to agree that they are less acceptable than:
OK 江ノ島へ出かける
OK 江ノ島に出かける


----------



## cheshire

Yes, I agree. But whether 江ノ島に泳ぐ is OK is still questionable to me. へ　is more acceptable. I guess 漁師 or swimmers would find them more acceptable than us.


----------

