# それは難しいようだと山本さんは言いました



## hmoulding

Here's a sentence from today's lesson:

それは難しい*ようだ*と山本さんは言いました。

The youda usage is what I'm wondering about. I thought the sentence should be translated as "That is difficult, like Mr Yamamoto said." But I was told the youda in this case refers merely to "that is difficult." 

Now I'm wondering why someone would bother saying youda when a simple da seems to me to be sufficient in this case. Any ideas?

-- 
ヘルゲ


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## Wishfull

Hi.
It is because decent people would tend to avoid direct expressions.

For example:
*Open the window.* Please open the window. Would you mind opinig the window?
Could you open the window for me?

*You are wrong.* I think you might be wrong. I'm afraid you would not be right.

I think it is common between Japanese and English to avoid direct expression to make conversation smoothly and I belive German and other langugages have the same methods.

There is another interpretation.
それは難しいと山本さんは言いました。　Mr. Yamamoto said, "It is difficult for me."
それは難しいようだと山本さんは言いました。Mr.Yamamoto said, "It seems difficult for me."
Yamamoto refused completely with the former one.
With the latter expression, there are two possibility. One is that Yamamoto refused completely with decent expression.
The second is that Yamamoto left room for negotiation. 
Which depends on the context or it is fuzzy. Fuzziness is Japanese culture.

Cheers.


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## Demurral

well...

my attempts:

Soreha muzukashii da to yamamoto ha iimashita.(without DA, is an I-adj!)
Yamamoto said that that is difficult.


soreha muzukashii you da to yamamoto ha iimashita.
Yamamoto said that (according to what he has experimented, and logical deduction) that is difficult.   you-da also implies modesty, somewhat.

In this phrases, yamamoto is being humble in 2.


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## hmoulding

そうですか。

That is a good distinction to know about. Thanks!
-- 
ヘルゲ


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## Flaminius

Demurral said:


> Soreha muzukashii da to yamamoto ha iimashita.(without DA, is an I-adj!)
> Yamamoto said that that is difficult.


Just a quick comment but you cannot say _muzukashii da to itta_.

*Demurral*, I am at a loss how to understand "without DA, is an I-adj!" in your comment because of the missing subject.  English verbs ALWAYS require the subject (even if implied subjects are allowed in casual speeches).  I'd have to wait for you to explain what the subject of _is_ to determine whether I agree with you or not.

Any which way, 難しい is an _i_-adjective.  Its past form is むずかしかった and the negative form is むずかしくない.


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## SpiceMan

Hmm, I don't think there's any kind of humbleness in the use of よう.
It's just a speech pattern to avoid being blunt.


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## hmoulding

Flaminius said:


> Just a quick comment but you cannot say _muzukashii da to itta_.



Doushite?

It parses fine, as far as I can tell. 

_muzukashii da_ - (something) is difficult. Isn't that a perfectly acceptable statement?

_to itta_ - as (someone) said. Or however you'd translate the particle to here. 

What am I missing?
-- 
ヘルゲ


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## SpiceMan

No.
You either use the 敬語(けいご - full form) muzukasii desu, or drop the copula altogether in case of i-adjectives like muzukasii and verbs.

verb: 
ringo wo tabemashita -> ringo wo tabeta.
eigo ga wakarimasu kedo, doitsugo wa wakaranai desu yo -> eigo ga wakaru kedo, doitsugo wa wakaranai yo.

noun:
inu desu. -> inu da.

na-adjective:
kono heya wa shizuka desu. -> kono heya wa shizuka da.

i-adjective:
kodomo wa urusai desu. -> kodomo wa urusai.

back to the よう+だ thing. A -very- loose translation from a japanese dictionary:
ようだ: Noun. よう(様) with the だ copula attached. Auxiliar verb of comparision. 
Usually attached to auxiliar verbs/verbs with the "reru - rareru", "seru - saseru", "ta", "nai", "nu", "tai", "rashii", "masu" attributive forms.
Other uses include, being connected through a "no" particle with an uninflected word or part of an adverb.
Additionally, it may follow the "kono, sono, ano, dono" pronouns.

Meanings:
1) Indicates uncertainty about the conclusion.
2) Express an indirect judgment in order to avoid a conclusion.
[...]
(there are others listed, but aren't with だ ).

Conclusion as in being settled, decided. eg: in "it is my cow", it's mine, it's definitive, there's nothing to argue about. "it looks like my cow" or "seems to be my cow" are open to a different conclusion. 

I'd say "seems", "looks like", etc. are a somewhat decent translation for the nuance.


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## Wishfull

hmoulding said:


> Doushite?
> 
> It parses fine, as far as I can tell.
> 
> _muzukashii da_ - (something) is difficult. Isn't that a perfectly acceptable statement?
> 
> _to itta_ - as (someone) said. Or however you'd translate the particle to here.
> 
> What am I missing?
> --
> ヘルゲ


 
こども　だ　　おとな　だ　　　鳥　だ
おおきい　だ
むずかしい　だ

名詞＋だ
形容詞＋だ

それは子供だと言った。　それはむずかしいと言った。
それはむずかしいだと言った。


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## Demurral

Flaminius said:


> Just a quick comment but you cannot say _muzukashii da to itta_.
> 
> *Demurral*, I am at a loss how to understand "without DA, is an I-adj!" in your comment because of the missing subject.  English verbs ALWAYS require the subject (even if implied subjects are allowed in casual speeches).  I'd have to wait for you to explain what the subject of _is_ to determine whether I agree with you or not.
> 
> Any which way, 難しい is an _i_-adjective.  Its past form is むずかしかった and the negative form is むずかしくない.



I'm sorry...my spanish mind (and my sleepyness! ^^) got me in trouble. My intention was to say: ([Use it] without DA[!, remember it is an I-adjective!].

See you!


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## hmoulding

SpiceMan said:


> You either use the 敬語(けいご - full form) muzukasii desu, or drop the copula altogether in case of i-adjectives like muzukasii and verbs.



Oh. I probably should have known that. (Maybe I did, but forgot...) Thanks.


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