# The root  [غ ي ي]



## Ibn Nacer

Salut,


I find very little information about the verb غَيَّ (forme I :فعَل- يفعِل ----i غَيَيَ  --> غَيَّ) and I think that its root is [غ ي ي] not [غ وي].

- Do you know this verb ? Do you know dictionaries who mention this verb? What is its meaning ?

For example, look at this passage (source : الكتب  - تفسير البحر المحيط - تفسير سورة طه - تفسير قوله تعالى وما أعجلك عن قومك ياموسى - الجزء رقم2) :

وَلَمَّا وَعَظَهُمْ هَارُونُ وَنَبَّهَهُمْ عَلَى مَا فِيهِ رُشْدُهُمُ اتَّبَعُوا سَبِيلَ الْغَيِّ وَ ( قَالُوا لَنْ نَبْرَحَ  ) عَلَى عِبَادَتِهِ مُقِيمِينَ مُلَازِمِينَ لَهُ ، وَغَيُّوا ذَلِكَ بِرُجُوعِ مُوسَى وَفِي قَوْلِهِمْ ذَلِكَ دَلِيلٌ عَلَى عَدَمِ رُجُوعِهِمْ إِلَى الِاسْتِدْلَالِ​

- Does the word in red (غَيُّوا) is the verb غَيَّ (forme I :فعَل- يفعِل ----i غَيَيَ  --> غَيَّ) ?
- Can you translate (or explain) the passage in blue ?

Thank you.

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Je ne trouve que très peu d'informations à propos du verbe غَيَّ (forme I :فعَل- يفعِل ----i غَيَيَ  --> غَيَّ).

- Connaissez-vous ce verbe ? Connaissez-vous des dictionnaires dans lesquels figure ce verbe ? Quel est son sens ?

Regardez (par exemple) ce passage (source : الكتب  - تفسير البحر المحيط - تفسير سورة طه - تفسير قوله تعالى وما أعجلك عن قومك ياموسى - الجزء رقم2) :

وَلَمَّا وَعَظَهُمْ هَارُونُ وَنَبَّهَهُمْ عَلَى مَا فِيهِ رُشْدُهُمُ اتَّبَعُوا سَبِيلَ الْغَيِّ وَ ( قَالُوا لَنْ نَبْرَحَ  ) عَلَى عِبَادَتِهِ مُقِيمِينَ مُلَازِمِينَ لَهُ ، وَغَيُّوا ذَلِكَ بِرُجُوعِ مُوسَى وَفِي قَوْلِهِمْ ذَلِكَ دَلِيلٌ عَلَى عَدَمِ رُجُوعِهِمْ إِلَى الِاسْتِدْلَالِ​- Est-ce que le verbe en rouge (غَيُّوا) est le verbe غَيَّ (forme I :فعَل- يفعِل ----i غَيَيَ  --> غَيَّ) ?
- Pourriez-vous traduire ou (m'expliquer) le passage en bleu ?

Merci.


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## djara

Cherchez plutôt la racine غوى, dans le Hans Wehr (par ex.)


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## Ibn Nacer

Merci.


djara said:


> Cherchez plutôt la racine غوى, dans le Hans Wehr (par ex.)


Oui j'ai cherché et je n'ai trouvé pas un sens ou une forme conjuguée qui convienne.

---> La vocalisation qui est donnée est : وَغَيُّوا (avec une dammah sur y).
Cela correspond au verbe de la forme I غَيَّ - يَغَيُّ – et conjugué : هم غَيُّوا  
Sans les voyelles cela pourrait être la forme II غَيَّا – يُغَيِّي – et conjugué : هم غَيَّوْا (avec une fathah sur y).

Mais pour la racine غوي cela ne convient pas apparemment :

Forme I : غَوَى – يَغْوَى – et conjugué : هم غَوَوْا
Forme II : غَوَّى – يُغَوِّي – et conjugué : هم غَوَّوْا
Forme IV : أغْوَى - يُغْوِي – et conjugué : هم أغْوَوْا

---> J'ai trouvé très peu d'informations sur la forme I غَيَّ - يَغَيُّ :





Même les dictionnaires ar-ar que j'ai consulté ne mentionnent cette forme.

Mais de toute façon elle semble avoir le même sens que la forme II et IV.


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## Ibn Nacer

La forme II (غَيَّا) :

غَيَّا 
[غ ي ي]. (ف: ربا. لازمتع. م. بحرف). غَيَّيْتُ، أُغَيِّي، غَيِّ، مص. تَغْيِيَةٌ *غَيَّا الرَّايَةَ*: نَصَبَهَا وَأَقَامَهَا *غَيَّا وَلَدَهُ*: جَعَلَ لَهُ غَايَةً *غَيَّا الشَّيْءَ*: جَعَلَ لَهُ نِهَايَةً *غَيَّتِ الطُّيورُ عَلَى الأَشْجارِ*: رَفْرَفَتْ.  إغلاق

Could you translate or explain the sentences in blue ?
Pourriez-vous traduire ou m'expliquer les phrases en bleu ?


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PS : Pour l'instant je comprends comme ceci :

*غَيَّا الشَّيْءَ* ---> Peut avoir deux sens je pense :

1-Il a fixé|établi une غَايَة|نِهَايَة (limite, terme, fin...) à la chose.
2-Il a fait de la chose une غَايَة|نِهَايَة (objectif, but) --> Il en a fait un objectif (à atteindre) --- Il s'est fixé la chose comme objectif, but...

*غَيَّا وَلَدَهُ* --->

1- Il a fait de son enfant une غَايَة|نِهَايَة (objectif, but...)

Mais formulé comme cela c'est étrange, peut-être est-ce une façon de dire : Il a fait de son enfant sa priorité

Qu'en pensez-vous ?


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## djara

Ma connaissance de la grammaire classique est malheureusement insuffisante pour que je puisse vous expliquer le mécanisme du passage de w à y, mais voilà ce que dit al-Khalil Ibn Ahmad dans son Al-'ayn:
غوي: مصدر غَوَى: الغَيُّ. والغَوايةُ: الإنهماكُ في الغَيّ. ويقال: أغواه إذا أضله.
وغَوِيَ الفصيلُ يَغْوَى غَوىً إذا لم يُصِبْ رِيّاً من اللَّبَنِ حتى كاد يَهْلك
Il confirme donc que le substantif غي vient du verbe غَوَى 
Et puis dans le Lisan, vous avez: قال: والغَوَّةُ والغَيَّةُ واحد


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## Ibn Nacer

Merci bien pour vos recherches.

Oui le substantif غَيٌّ malgré qu'on pourrait en douter a pour racine [غ و ي] et c'est le masdar du verbe غَوَى :

غَيٌّ : [غ و ي]. (مص. غَوَى).البقرة آية 256 قَدْ تَبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ . (قرآن) : الضَّلاَل. ¨"تَرَكَهُ فِي غَيِّهِ" "تَمَادَى فِي غَيِّهِ" "كَيْفَ يَرَى الْغَيَّ رُشْداً" .

Mais moi je parle du verbe غَيَّ - يَغَيُّ et non du substantif غَيٌّ. La racine de ce verbe est différente c'est [غ ي ي].Il y a une différence entre le verbe غَيَّ et le verbe غَوَى, ils ne se conjuguent pas de la même manière :

Avec le verbe غَيَّ - يَغَيُّ on a  : هم غَيُّوا (cela correspond au verbe qui est utilisé dans l'exemple)
Mais avec le verbe : غَوَى – يَغْوَى on a : هم غَوَوْا (ce n'est donc pas ce verbe qui est utilisé dans l'exemple)

De plus les sens des deux racines est différents...


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## Mazhara

Root: غ و ى

Words from this Root in the Grand Qur'aan:

a) Total occurrences: 22

b) No of constructions: 16  7 Nouns  9 verbs

It occurs in 18 Ayahs in 11 Chapters

Ibn Faris [died-1005] stated:

(مقاييس اللغة)

الغين والواو والحرف المعتلّ بعدهما أصلانِ: أحدهما يدلُّ على خِلاف الرُّشد وإظلام الأَمْر،والآخرُ على فسادٍ في شيء

That it leads to the perception contra. of dextral-righteousness-veracity; and darkening, dimness of matter, and lastly it signifies degeneration - corruption in a thing.

Root  غ و ى


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## Ibn Nacer

Thank you.

But I do not think the root of the verb (in red) in the example I cited in the first message is [غ و ي].


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## Mazhara

Lane has an entry in vol-6 under غي

غَايَةُ--غَيَيَة the utmost, extreme, extent. May be the red verb in the first message could then mean they made it apparent to an extreme extent ---they made it explicit.


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## Ibn Nacer

Thank you.

Yes I also consulted this lexicon, it is fine but unfortunately I did not find the verb غَيَّ - يَغَيُّ.

To this verb (form 1), he wrote : "1 see what next follows." But I found nothing !

Here the passage for form I and II :




> 1 see what next follows.
> 
> 2 غَيَّيْتُ غَايَةً, (S, K, TA,) inf. n. تَغْيِيَةٌ; (TA: ) [in the CK ↓ غَيَيْتُهَا, which is wrong, unless they said thus as well as غَيَّيْتُهَا, like as they say رَيَيْتُ رَايَةً as well as رَيَّيْتُهَا;] and ↓ أَغْيَيْتُهَا; (S, K, TA; but in the last as not found in the K) I set up the banner, or standard; (S, K, TA) from A'Obeyd. (S.) ―
> 
> -b2-  And غَيَّى لِلْقَوْمِ He set up a banner, or standard, for the people, or party : or he made it for them. (TA.) ―
> 
> -b3-  And غَيَّتِ الطَّيْرُ The birds flapped their wings, or fluttered, in the air, without moving from their place; or did thus around a thing, desiring to alight upon it; syn. رَفْرَفَتْ. (TA.) [See also 6.]
> 
> -A2-  غَيَّيْتُ غَايَةً signifies [also] بَيَّنْتُهَا [i. e. I made apparent, or manifest, or known, an utmost, or extreme, extent, term, limit, or the like; or I set it]. (Msb.)



But (good news) I think the form I has the same meaning as the form II and IV.


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## I.K.S.

It's the same verb ,you won't find غَيَّ because it should be غَيَّا instead .


Ibn Nacer said:


> - Can you translate (or explain) the passage in blue ?


Yes , and they tied the renouncing of the calf worship with Moses return .the author is explaining the ayah in the red :
قال تعالى : ( وَلَقَدْ قَالَ لَهُمْ هَارُونُ مِنْ قَبْلُ يَا قَوْمِ إِنَّمَا فُتِنْتُمْ بِهِ وَإِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ الرَّحْمَنُ فَاتَّبِعُونِي وَأَطِيعُوا أَمْرِي * قَالُوا لَنْ نَبْرَحَ عَلَيْهِ عَاكِفِينَ حَتَّى يَرْجِعَ إِلَيْنَا مُوسَى ) طه/ 90، 91 .


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## Ibn Nacer

Thank you for your explanation.



إتحادية قبائل الشاوية said:


> It's the same verb ,you won't find غَيَّ because it should be غَيَّا instead .



I found this verb (غَيَّ) in two dictionaries but I think in general it is the verb that you mentioned is used.

But in this case (as I explained in French) there is an error in the passage :

وَغَيُّوا ذَلِكَ بِرُجُوعِ مُوسَى وَفِي قَوْلِهِمْ ذَلِكَ دَلِيلٌ عَلَى عَدَمِ رُجُوعِهِمْ إِلَى الِاسْتِدْلَالِ

If the verb (in red) is the verb غَيَّا then we should have this غَيَّوْا (with fathah on the y not a dammah).
The verb غَيُّوا with dammah corresponds to the verb غَيَّ - يَغَيُّ i---> : هم غَيُّوا

Or maybe I'm wrong ?


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## I.K.S.

Ibn Nacer said:


> If the verb (in red) is the verb غَيَّا then we should have this غَيَّوْا (with fathah on the y not a dammah).


I agree with you on this ,though my dictionary states that غَيَّا is from غ ي ي , which make its conjugation similar to the verb غَيَّ


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## Ibn Nacer

Thank you. Yes I also quoted about this a passage from a dictionary in the message #4



Ibn Nacer said:


> La forme II (غَيَّا) :
> 
> غَيَّا
> [غ ي ي]. (ف: ربا. لازمتع. م. بحرف). غَيَّيْتُ، أُغَيِّي، غَيِّ، مص. تَغْيِيَةٌ *غَيَّا الرَّايَةَ*: نَصَبَهَا وَأَقَامَهَا *غَيَّا وَلَدَهُ*: جَعَلَ لَهُ غَايَةً *غَيَّا الشَّيْءَ*: جَعَلَ لَهُ نِهَايَةً *غَيَّتِ الطُّيورُ عَلَى الأَشْجارِ*: رَفْرَفَتْ.  إغلاق




And I asked : Could you translate or explain the sentences in blue ?


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## I.K.S.

They made a flag/ handed a flag to their son :غَيَّا وَلَدَهُ
 He brought an end to the thing: *غَيَّا الشَّيْءَ*


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## AndyRoo

Are you sure إتحادية?

I think غَيَّا وَلَدَهُ might mean "he set his son a goal [lit. flag]".

and غَيَّا الشَّيْءَ = "he set an end point [lit. flag] for the thing", which would tie in with غَيُّوا ذَلِكَ بِرُجُوعِ مُوسَى  meaning "they set the end point as the return of Moses".

EDIT: I see Ibn Nacer already mentioned the above possible meanings in post #4.


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## I.K.S.

^
Too many interpretations are valid [including those you provided] as far as there is no context to narrow them down .
see this passage from Lisan al-Arab for example:
قال ومن رَواه غابَة بالباء يريد الأَجَمَة شَبَّه كثْرَة الرِّماح في العسكر بها قال أَبو عبيد وبعضهم روى الحديث في ثمانين غَيايَةً وليس ذلك بمحْفوظ ولا موضِعَ للغَياية ههنا أَبو زيد غَيَّيْت للقَوم تَغْيِيًّا ورََيَّيْت لهم تَرْيِياًّ جَعَلْت لهم غايةً وراية وغايةُ 
الخَمَّارِ رايتُه وغَيّاها عَمِلَها وأَغْياها نَصبَها والغاية القَصَبة التي يُصادُ بها العَصافيرُ والغَيايَة السحابة المُنْفَرِدَة وقيل الواقِفة عن ابن الأَعرابي والغيَايَةُ ظِلُّ الشمسِ بالغَداةِ والعَشيِّ وقيل هو ضَوْءُ شُعاعِ الشَّمْسِ


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## Ibn Nacer

@ إتحادية قبائل الشاوية and AndyRoo : Thank you very much.



AndyRoo said:


> I think غَيَّا وَلَدَهُ might mean "he set his son a goal [lit. flag]".


I want to be sure I understand your translation (sorry I am not an English speaker) because for this sentence I think I was wrong in my translation in French (in my message #4 I think I translated as if we had this جَعَلَ وَلَدَهُ غَايَةً لَهُ).

Is that meaning is "he set a goal *to|for* his son" *** ---> so after that his son has a goal ? (** *In French : "Il a fixé un but|objectif à son enfant" or in arabic : أَعْطَى غَايَةً لوَلَدِهِ).

I think that in this case the word غَايَة has the meaning : goal, purpose, aim... *And not* : "_the utmost, or extreme, extent, term, limit, point, or reach; or the extremity; of a thing; (MA, KL, PS) in respect of time and of place;_" (Lane's lexicon).

Thank you.



AndyRoo said:


> and غَيَّا الشَّيْءَ = "he set an end point [lit. flag] for the thing"


Yes thank you, this is also how I understood the sentence (he set a غَايَة|نِهَايَة (end, term, limit...) for the thing).

I think that in this case the word غَايَة has the meaning : "_the utmost, or extreme, extent, term, limit, point, or reach; or the extremity; of a thing; (MA, KL, PS) in respect of time and of place;_" (Lane's lexicon).

And not : goal, purpose, aim...



AndyRoo said:


> which would tie in with غَيُّوا ذَلِكَ بِرُجُوعِ مُوسَى meaning "they set the end point as the return of Moses".


Thank you for this translation, I did not know how to explain this in English.

I would like to give a general expression (in english because I have already done in French) to explain the meaning of this structure (غَيَّا الشَّيْءَ بكَذَا) that I have not found in the dictionaries that I consulted.

غَيَّا الشَّيْءَ (A) بكَذَا (B)

I understand as : "he set a غَايَة (end, term, limit...) for the thing A and this غَايَة is the thing B mentioned after the preposition ب.​In French, we get for that sentence وَغَيُّوا ذَلِكَ بِرُجُوعِ مُوسَى this:

- "Et ils ont fixé le retour de Mûsa comme غاية (limite|fin|terme) à *cela*".
- "Et ils ont fixé comme غاية (limite|fin|terme) à *cela *le retour de Mûsa".​
And here is an attempt in English (inspired by the translation of "*AndyRoo*") :

- And they set the return of Moses as a غَايَة|نِهَايَة (end, term, limit...) for *that*.
- And they set as a غَايَة|نِهَايَة (end, term, limit...) for *that* the return of Moses.

What do you think ?
Please correct my English.


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