# być zmęczonym - czuję się/jestem zmęczony



## gvergara

Hi,

In class my teacher taught us the adjective _zmęczony_, and we built simple sentences using the verbs _być _and _czuć się_, such as _Czuję się/Jestem zmęczony_. However, the Pons dictionary translates the infinitive form _to be tired_ as _być zmęczony*m*_. I guess that that is the adjective's instrumental form, but what I do not understand is why this form is used, especially because below they provide an example sentence in which the adjective is used in its expected nominative form. Is there a reason for this? Or am I getting this wrong from the very beginning?






Thanks in advance,

G.


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## zaffy

The infinitive "być" requires the instrumental case: "Być zmęczonym". So does "czuć": "Czuć się zmęczonym".

Co mam robić żeby nie być zmęczonym po pracy?
Co mam robić żeby nie czuć się zmęczonym po pracy?


"Jestem" or "Czuje się"requires a different case, but I'm not sure if it's the nominative or the vocative, as they have the same forms. 

Co mam zrobić jak jestem zmęczony po pracy?
Co mam zrobić jak czuję się zmęczony po pracy?


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## gvergara

Thanks for your prompt answer, zaffy.



zaffy said:


> but I'm not sure if it's the nominative or the vocative, as they have the same forms.


I would assume that it is the nominative, as, in my understanding, the vocative is only used only when you are addressing someone/someone, which is not the case here. But well, I have got enough evidence that nothing can be taken for granted in Polish, and I would not be surprised if the case used were the vocative.

G.


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## Panceltic

It is indeed nominative  Vocative is only used for directly addressing.


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## elroy

zaffy said:


> The infinitive "być" requires the instrumental case: "Być zmęczonym". So does "czuć": "Czuć się zmęczonym".





zaffy said:


> "Jestem" or "Czuje się"requires a different case



I’ve never heard of an infinitive governing a different case from a finite form. 




gvergara said:


> I have got enough evidence that nothing can be taken for granted in Polish


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## Drakonica

być zmęczony*m*
Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Jestem zmęczony*m* człowiekiem. I am a tired men.

It's similar like in:
He is my boyfriend.
He is is mine.

"Zmęczony" can alsow work as a noun:
Zmęczony szedł nadal. - The tired one continued walking.


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## elroy

Drakonica said:


> Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
> Jestem zmęczony*m* człowiekiem. I am a tired man.


@zaffy suggested that the difference was between “być” (infinitive) and “jestem” (finite form).  I take it you don’t agree?

Do you agree with the following?

Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Chcę być zmęczony. - I want to be tired.

Jestem zmęczonym człowiekiem.
Chcę być zmęczonym człowiekiem. - I want to be a tired man.


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## zaffy

elroy said:


> Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
> Chcę być zmęczony. - I want to be tired.
> 
> Jestem zmęczonym człowiekiem.
> Chcę być zmęczonym człowiekiem. - I want to be a tired man.


Yes, those are fine, so my theory didn't work well enough.


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## Drakonica

elroy said:


> But @zaffy suggested that the difference was between “być” (infinitive) and “jestem” (finite form).


He was right too  An infinitive enforces the instrumental.

być zmęczony*m *- to be tired
być zmęczony*m* człowiekiem. - to be a tired man

Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Jestem zmęczony*m* człowiekiem. - I am a tired man.


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## elroy

Drakonica said:


> An infinitive enforces *triggers/induces* the instrumental.


So you think this is wrong?


elroy said:


> Chcę być zmęczony. - I want to be tired.


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## Drakonica

It is crazy. But continuing reverse engineering on my own language:

być zmęczony*m *- to be tired
być zmęczony*m* człowiekiem. - to be a tired man
------------
Chcę być zmęczony. - I want to be tired.        
Chcę być zmęczony*m* człowiekiem. I want to be a tired man.
------------
Jestem zmęczony. - I am tired.
Jestem zmęczony*m* człowiekiem. - I am a tired man.

So there is a difference between a stand alone infinitive and an infinitive object.


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## elroy

Where would we have a “standalone infinitive”?  Do you mean something like the title of a book or article, for example?


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## Drakonica

Być zmęczonym, nie jest fajnie.
Być czy nie być zmęczonym - oto jest pytanie.
Or in the title, or in a grammar book.


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## elroy

Drakonica said:


> Być zmęczonym, nie jest fajnie.
> Być czy nie być zmęczonym - oto jest pytanie.


So “zmęczony” would be impossible in these sentences?  There’s no conceivable context in which it would work?


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## Drakonica

elroy said:


> So “zmęczony” would be impossible in these sentences?  There’s no conceivable context in which it would work?


I think, it's impossible.


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## elroy

That’s interesting!  So just to double-check:

_Jestem teraz *zmęczony*. Nie lubię być *zmęczony*.  Być *zmęczonym* jest dla mnie dużym problemem._

Even in this context “zmęczony” is wrong for the third one?


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## gvergara

Drakonica said:


> Być zmęczonym, nie jest fajnie.


And if by any chance a man happened to be referring to a group of men, or a woman were talking about her own situation, would the adjective be declined (chances are it would, as is everything in Polish, but I'd rather confirm this)?

_Być zmęczon*ymi*, nie jest fajnie.
Być zmęczon*ą*, nie jest fajnie._



G.


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## zaffy

elroy said:


> _Być *zmęczonym* jest dla mnie dużym problemem._
> 
> Even in this context “zmęczony” is wrong for the third one?


Yes. And I would say "By*cie* zmęczonym jest dla mnie problemem".


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## zaffy

gvergara said:


> Być zmęczon*ymi*, nie jest fajnie.
> Być zmęczon*ą*, nie jest fajnie.


A female would say "Bycie zmęczoną nie jest fajne."

A group of men? Well, I guess one man would be talking and he would say "Bycie zmęczonym nie jest fajne.", even if he was referring to the whole group.


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## Drakonica

elroy said:


> _Jestem teraz *zmęczony*. Nie lubię być *zmęczony*.  Być *zmęczonym* jest dla mnie dużym problemem._
> Even in this context “zmęczony” is wrong for the third one?


Yes.
You can search the language corpus.
Korpus Języka Polskiego PWN


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## Donoav

elroy said:


> I’ve never heard of an infinitive governing a different case from a finite form.


I immediately thought, "Me neither!" But you know what? To my own surprise, in Belarusian and Russian this nuance also takes place when it's the verb "*be*."

The thing is, I didn't realise that originally, because the present-simple "be" (am, is, are) isn't really used in the East Slavic languages anymore. We just say, "We nice; she good; I here."

However, if you weren't afraid to sound archaic, you would say "я ёсць прыгожы"(Bel.)/"я есмь/есть красивый"(Rus.), which is the *present-simple "be"* + the *nominative *(= (ja) jestem piękny). Or you would use the *instrumental *to translate the phrase "*to be* beautiful": być pięknym, быць прыгожым (Bel.), быть красивым (Rus.).

So maybe it's not that unpopular or merely Polish after all?


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## Ben Jamin

elroy said:


> I’ve never heard of an infinitive governing a different case from a finite form.


This is a fact, even if not described in popular grammars for foreigners or taught at school in Poland.
The distinction has probably ocurred through analogy to the construction of the type "to be + substanstive [instr]", for example "być człowiekiem  not "być człowiek".


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## Ben Jamin

gvergara said:


> And if by any chance a man happened to be referring to a group of men, or a woman were talking about her own situation, would the adjective be declined (chances are it would, as is everything in Polish, but I'd rather confirm this)?
> 
> _Być zmęczon*ymi*, nie jest fajnie.
> Być zmęczon*ą*, nie jest fajnie._
> 
> 
> 
> G.


The plural form "zmęczonymi" is not "correct" here, it should be "_Być zmęczon*ym*, nie jest fajnie.", _but the feminine form is OK_ "Być zmęczon*ą*, nie jest fajnie."_
However, a woman could as well also say "_Być zmęczon*ym*, nie jest fajnie.", _because this sentence describes a general truth which can be valid for both women and men. I can't think at the moment of any situation in which the feminine form should be obligatory.
In Polish the masculine gender is a default choice for general statements. Maybe it will change under the pressure of feminism and increasing political correctness (P.C.). 
It has already led to such P.C. expressions like "Polki i Polacy" used by politicians. Until recently "Polacy" covered both men and women.


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## Henares

Ben Jamin said:


> It has already led to such P.C. expressions like "Polki i Polacy" used by politicians. Until recently "Polacy" covered both men and women.


It still does - I think we should avoid irony (or mental shortcuts) not to mislead learners.


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## Ben Jamin

Henares said:


> It still does - I think we should avoid irony (or mental shortcuts) not to mislead learners.


It is not irony. It is a statement of a fact, at least in the public discourse.


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## Drakonica

Ben Jamin said:


> I can't think at the moment of any situation in which the feminine form should be obligatory.


Być umalowaną.
Być odstawioną.


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## Ben Jamin

Drakonica said:


> Być umalowaną.
> Być odstawioną.


I think it is still a matter of choice. But we should ask a representative sample of women.


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## Drakonica

Ben Jamin said:


> I think it is still a matter of choice. But we should ask a representative sample of women.


Być zamężną.
Być ciężarną :->


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