# Armee vs. Heer (discussion in English)



## Strzykafka

What is the difference between "Armee" and "Heer"?

Both mean "army." I don't know German at all, so please be easy on me.


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## Schimmelreiter

Strzykafka said:


> Both mean "army"


They don't.

*Armee *means _armed forces/Streitkräfte.
_*Heer *means _army/*land* forces/_*Land*_streitkräfte__.

_An *Armee *consists of _Teilstreitkräfte/armed services_, i.e. the _*Heer*/army _and the _Luftwaffe/air force. _If the respective country doesn't happen to be as land-locked as mine was made in 1918 , it's also got a _Marine/navy.

__Branches_, instead of _armed services_, is used by those unaware of the fact that _branches/Waffengattungen_ are in fact parts of an _armed service/Teilstreitkraft_. 

In the _Teilstreitkraft/armed service _known as _Heer/army_, for instance, there are such _branches__/Waffengattungen _as the _infantry_, _armour_, _artillery_ and the _engineer branch. 

_In Her Britannic Majesty's armed forces, _branches_ are referred to as _corps_, such as, in the army, the _Royal Corps of Artillery_, not to be confused with _corps _denoting a unit of a certain size (cf. _division_).

Germany's *Armee* is called _Bundeswehr_. It consists of the _*Heer*_, the _Luftwaffe_ and the _Marine._


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## Frank78

Schimmelreiter said:


> *Armee *means _armed forces/Streitkräfte.
> _*Heer *means _army/*land* forces/_*Land*_streitkräfte__.
> _



The former defintion is just colloquial usage. An "Armee" (=field army) is a subdivision of the entire "Heer" (=army).


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## wandle

Frank78 said:


> An "Armee" (=field army) is a subdivision of the entire "Heer" (=army).


If that is so, what is the entire 'Heer' (=army)?
It is not clear to me whether you are exactly reversing Schimmelreiter's definitions.


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## Schimmelreiter

Frank78 said:


> The former defintion is just colloquial usage. An "Armee" (=field army) is a subdivision of the entire "Heer" (=army).


This is another, quite different meaning of the term _Armee. _In German(y), it's purely historical:

_der Untergang der 6. Armee in Stalingrad_

This meaning of _Armee_, denoting a unit size, also exists in English: _the 6th __Army.




_The current German usage of _Armee_, which I explained in post #2, is by no means _colloquial_. It denotes a given country's entire military might: _Die Armeen der NATO-Staaten stehen vor neuen Herausforderungen._


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## Frank78

wandle said:


> If that is so, what is the entire 'Heer' (=army)?



The "Heer" consists of all land forces. Schimmelreiter's definition is correct here.

These land forces are divded into: Kommando Heer (high command)-> Heeresgruppe (army group) -> Armee (field army -> Division (division) -> ...and so on


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## Schimmelreiter

Frank78 said:


> Kommando Heer (high command)-> Heeresgruppe (army group) -> Armee (field army -> Division (division) -> ...and so on


This was the organisation of the _Heer_ of the _Wehrmacht__, _where the second, historical meaning of _Armee_, denoting a large-sized unit, applies (e.g. _6. Armee_).


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## wandle

Frank78 said:


> The "Heer" consists of all land forces. Schimmelreiter's definition is correct here.
> These land forces are divded into: Kommando Heer (high command)-> Heeresgruppe (army group) -> Armee (field army -> Division (division) -> ...and so on


From that it seems that 'Armee' is the term for a land-force formation of a specific size, namely that combination of divisions which makes up an army: as in First Army, 5th Guards Army etc.

In that case, German 'Armee' corresponds to that one specific meaning of the English word 'army'. 
Thus while the English term 'army' also has other meanings, the German term is univocal. Is that right?


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## Hutschi

As far as I see "Armee" has two different meanings. 
1. an Armee is a part of a Heer.
2. a Heer is a part of the armee. 

Both are already described. It depends on context.

In coll. usage, Armee can also be a large amount. Eine ganze Armee von Leuten. A huge amount of people.


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## Frank78

Schimmelreiter said:


> This was the organisation of the _Heer_ of the _Wehrmacht__, _where the second, historical meaning of _Armee_, denoting a large-sized unit, applies (e.g. _6. Armee_).



Since we don't have any context we have to explain it, I think. Stryzkafka did not mention Bundeswehr.

The classic defintion of "Armee" is what I said. The fact that the Bundeswehr does not have armies but only divisions does not play a role for defining the word.


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## Schimmelreiter

wandle said:


> Thus while the English term 'army' also has other meanings, the German term is univocal. Is that right?


Not at all. The modern primary meaning of _Armee_ is _armed forces_​:





Schimmelreiter said:


> _Die Armeen der NATO-Staaten stehen vor neuen Herausforderungen._


When talk is of the former _Wehrmacht_, or we need to translate English terms such as


wandle said:


> First Army


what comes into play is the secondary meaning of _Armee_, denoting a large-sized unit *inside* the _army/Heer_, which is itself one of the armed services of the whole _​armed forces/Armee/Streitkräfte._



For practical purposes, the above secondary meaning is usually easy to recognise by the existence of an ordinal number:
_6. Armee/6th Army_


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## Hutschi

Hi, there are always language changes. So also the definition may change.
I see that two different definitions are in charge here, and both are used depending on context.
There are as well national as international differences.


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## Frank78

wandle said:


> From that it seems that 'Armee' is the term for a land-force formation of a specific size, namely that combination of divisions which makes up an army: as in First Army, 5th Guards Army etc.
> In that case, German 'Armee' corresponds to that one specific meaning of the English word 'army'.



Correct. That's why these would be translated as "1. Armee", "5. Gardearmee"



wandle said:


> Thus while the English term 'army' also has other meanings, the German term is univocal. Is that right?



Strictly speaking yes but in colloquial language "Armee" is also used for "Heer" and also rarely for all forces: army + navy + air force.


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## wandle

The origin of the word 'army' is the Latin _*armata*_ (for *copia* or *res armata*), meaning simply an armed force.
The English term (and I imagine the German) is derived via the French 'armée', which retains a more general sense.
Thus the French have 'armée de terre' and 'armée de l'air' (though not 'de la mer').
The Spanish 'armada' on the other hand, while remaining closer in form to the Latin, has moved further in sense and means 'navy'.
The closest in form is Italian 'armata', which can refer either to land or naval forces, but apparently not the air force.


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## Schimmelreiter

I hate having to quote authorities: 

_1.    _
_a.    gesamte Streitmacht eines Landes, Staates_
_b.    großer Truppenverband_


_2.    sehr große Anzahl_




Duden





PS


Frank78 said:


> in colloquial language "Armee" is also used for "Heer"


That's the one meaning it does not have.



Frank78 said:


> rarely for all forces: army + navy + air force


That's the not at all colloquial primary meaning, see Duden above.


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## Frank78

Schimmelreiter said:


> That's the one meaning it does not have.



"US Army" is often translated by "US Armee" even in the media. I do not say this is correct but you can encounter it.


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## Schimmelreiter

Frank78 said:


> "US Army" is often translated by "US Armee" even in the media. I do not say this is correct but you can encounter it.


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## fdb

Back in the days when lexicographers were allowed a sense of humour, the Grimm brothers defined “Armee” as follows:

armee, f. it. _armata_, sp. _armada_, ein mit dem feind überall vorgedrungnes, völlig entbehrliches wort, das unsere sprache längst mit _heer_ und_ haufen_ hätte zurückschlagen sollen.


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## bearded

Well, fdb, I dare doubt that they gave that definition out of 'sense of humour', and rather sadly suspect that they wrote it seriously.


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> I hate having to quote authorities:
> 
> _1. _
> _a. gesamte Streitmacht eines Landes, Staates_
> _b. großer Truppenverband_


1a is perfectly allright in Swiss usage. In German German usage I find it doubtful except as a pars pro toto reference to the armed forces of a country. E.g.: I would consider the sentence _Die israelische Armee griff den Gazastreifen an _acceptable even if army, air force and naval units are involved. But the sentence _Die israelische Armee verfügt über vier Unterseeboote der Dolphin-Klasse aus aus deutscher Produktion_ would sound wrong to me. Here it should be _die israelische Marine._


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> This is another, quite different meaning of the term _Armee. _In German(y), it's purely historical:
> 
> _der Untergang der 6. Armee in Stalingrad_


I don't understand. Why is this "purely historical"?


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> 1a is perfectly allright in Swiss usage. In German German usage I find it doubtful except as a pars pro toto reference to the armed forces of a country. E.g.: I would consider the sentence _Die israelische Armee griff den Gazastreifen an _acceptable even if army, air force and naval units are involved. But the sentence _Die israelische Armee verfügt über vier Unterseeboote der Dolphin-Klasse aus aus deutscher Produktion_ would sound wrong to me. Here it should be _die israelische Marine._


You seem to adhere to the classical usage, as in _Armee und Flotte_, where _Armee_ was synonymous with _Heer_ and air forces were either non-existent or in their infancy.

The classical usage began to erode, it seems, with the term _Rote Armee_, which, for the first time, meant _armed forces_, including the air force and the navy. Consequently, there are no such terms as _Rote Luftwaffe_ or _Rote Flotte/Marine._

Current usage is correctly represented in Duden, I believe. Just take _Armeeangehörige sollen in den Korruptionsfall verwickelt sein. _This may well involve soldiers, sailors and airmen alike.







berndf said:


> I don't understand. Why is this "purely historical"?


You cut off the second part of the quote: 


Schimmelreiter said:


> This is another, quite different meaning of the term _Armee. _In German(y), it's purely historical:
> 
> _der Untergang der 6. Armee in Stalingrad_
> 
> *This meaning of Armee, denoting a unit size, also exists in English: the 6th Army.*


What's historical in _German(y)_ *is* *not the term but the subject matter*.

The term is alive and kicking in any language including German. While that which it denotes can still be found in other parts of the world, it has not, however, existed in Germany since 8 May 1945.


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## Frank78

Schimmelreiter said:


> You seem to adhere to the classical usage, as in _Armee und Flotte_, where _Armee_ was synonymous with _Heer_ and air forces were either non-existent or in their infancy.
> 
> The classical usage began to erode, it seems, with the term _Rote Armee_, which, for the first time, meant _armed forces_, including the air force and the navy. Consequently, there are no such terms as _Rote Luftwaffe_ or _Rote Flotte/Marine._



I don't know about West Germany but in the East "Rote Armee" was only land and air force.


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## Schimmelreiter

Frank78 said:


> I don't know about West Germany but in the East "Rote Armee" was only land and air force.


Having now read into this on the internet a bit, I can say that the usage you are referring to is the most widespread in the more specifically military literature.

More politically, _Rote Armee _seems to be all-encompassing, beginning at the Kronstadt
Appell an alle Bürger, Arbeiter, Soldaten und Matrosen der Roten Armee of 14 March 1921.

The more military it gets, the more often _Rote Flotte _is indeed used.

Frank, did anybody say _Rote Flotte_ in the GDR? If not, how were the Soviet naval forces referred to?


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## Frank78

Schimmelreiter said:


> Frank, did anybody say _Rote Flotte_ in the GDR? If not, how were the Soviet naval forces referred to?



No, Rote Flotte was not used. I'm not entirely sure (perhaps Hutschi knows) but I think it was simply "Sowjetische Marine".


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## Hutschi

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowjetische_Marine

Ich kannte immer "Sowjetflotte". (I knew "Sowjetflotte")


Der komplette Name "Sowjetische Seekriegsflotte" (wurde wohl eher "offiziell" verwendet) (complete official name)
Hier wird der russische Name "direkt" übersetzt.

Wikipedia gibt Details:


> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sowjetische_Marine
> Die *Sowjetische Marine (russisch Военно-Морской Флот СССР; Wojenno-Morskoij flot SSSR) war eine Teilstreitkraft derStreitkräfte der Sowjetunion. Weitere Bezeichnungen waren Rote Flotte, Rote Bauern- und Arbeiter-Flotte (KKRF) oderSeekriegsflotte der UdSSR.*



Russischer Eintrag (Selbstbezeichnungen):

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Военно-Морской_Флот_СССР


> *Военно-Морской Флот СССР*


"Seekriegsflotte der UdSSR"



> В 1918—1924 и 1937—1946 годах носил название *Рабоче-Крестьянский Красный флот, РККФ; в 1924—1937 и 1950—1953 годы — Военно-Морские Силы, ВМС РККА.*



Das sind "Rote Arbeiter- und Bauernflotte" und "Seekriegs(streitkräfte)".

As you see in the Wikipedia entry:
They gave the name "Sowjetische Marine" as title but translation "Sowjetische Flotte" was used, too.


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## berndf

In those days, _Red Army_ (_Красная армия_) and _Red Fleet_ (_Красный флот_) were already purely historical names. They were official until 1946.

PS: Crossed with Hutschi


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> Having now read into this on the internet a bit, I can say that the usage you are referring to is the most widespread in the more specifically military literature.
> 
> More politically, _Rote Armee _seems to be all-encompassing, beginning at the Kronstadt
> Appell an alle Bürger, Arbeiter, Soldaten und Matrosen der Roten Armee of 14 March 1921.


Do you really want to base your argument on an obscure translation from Russian to English to German by some die-hard Trotzkist nutters? In the English version it reads "Red Army Soldiers and Sailors". I didn't find that document, if it exists, anywhere but this is almost certainly a translation of _красноармейцы и матросы_, a standard phrase to address the members of the Bolshevik military which clearly means _(soldiers of the Red Army) and sailors_ and not _(soldiers and sailors) of the Red Army_, as the German translation you quoted translation suggests.


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## Schimmelreiter

berndf said:


> Do you really want to base your argument on an obscure translation from Russian to English to German by some die-hard Trotzkist nutters? In the English version it reads "Red Army Soldiers and Sailors". I didn't find that document, if it exists, anywhere but this is almost certainly a translation of _красноармейцы и матросы_, a standard phrase to address the members of the Bolshevik military which clearly means _(soldiers of the Red Army) and sailors_ and not _(soldiers and sailors) of the Red Army_, as the German translation you quoted translation suggests.


I distinguished between more specialised military usage and the usage in the political arena. 

Take the Cold War era, when there was constant talk, in the _Bundestag_, in the media and so on, of the threats posed by the _Rote Armee_. You're not saying, are you, that that didn't mean to include the naval component?


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## Hutschi

_красноармейцы__ - wurde in der DDR (und zuvor) meist mit "Rotarmisten" übersetzt.
So __красноармейцы и матросы__ would be;
"Rotarmisten und Matrosen"

See also
_http://www.1000dokumente.de/pdf/dok_0011_kro_de.pdf

Der Kronstädter Aufstand: Resolution der
Vollversammlung der Mannschaften der ersten und
zweiten Brigade der Schlachtschiffe, 1. März 1921

Beispiel daraus:


> Alle politischen Gefangenen, die sozialistischen Parteien angehören, zu befreien
> ebenso wie alle _*Arbeiter und Bauern, Rotarmisten und Matrosen*_, die in Verbindung
> mit Arbeiter-und Bauernbewegungen eingesperrt wurden.


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## berndf

Schimmelreiter said:


> I distinguished between more specialised military usage and the usage in the political arena.


But please not such a doubtful translation of a translation.



Schimmelreiter said:


> Take the Cold War era, when there was constant talk, in the _Bundestag_, in the media and so on, of the threats posed by the _Rote Armee_. You're not saying, are you, that that didn't mean to include the naval component?


I said already before, as a pars pro toto denomination it is OK. But as soon as you specifically mention a different part of an entity a pars pro toto name is never appropriate. You could possibly say _England erklärte Deutschland nach dem Überfall auf Polen den Krieg_, even though the United Kingdom would be meant and not England. But _Schottland ist der nördlichste Teil Englands_ would be completely ridiculous.


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## wandle

The English word 'army' now only refers to land forces. The OED describes older uses referring specifically or optionally to naval forces as obsolete.

Thus for us, the expression 'the Red Army' means the land forces (I believe the air force is or was constituted and organised as one part of the land army). The threat envisaged was always that of massive quantities of troops and tanks rolling westwards.


berndf said:


> But _Schottland ist der nördlichste Teil Englands_ would be completely ridiculous.


My father was Scottish, but we lived in England. We once went on holiday to Scotland with a Dutch au pair, who scandalised him by saying how delightful it was to visit 'Scotlandshire'.


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