# налаженный сбыт продукции



## William Stein

Can anybody help with the term in **?:

Реализация Вашей продукции в Китае может Вам вывести бизнес на гораздо более высокий уровень. В свою очередь складское обслуживание товара, внутренняя логистика и **налаженный сбыт продукции*** - основные составляющие успешной организации и развития торгового бизнеса. 

Carrying out your manufacturing in China will let you do business on a much higher level. In turn, warehouse handling of merchandise, internal procurement and ??? form the bases of successful organisation and development of trade.


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## morzh

I am not sure who wrote this Russian sentence, but it is lame.


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## William Stein

It must be some Chinese guy. Anyway  I found "established market"  for " налаженный сбыт" in Multitrans.com.


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## morzh

First of, "реализация" is not manufacturing but selling for profit.
Then, "может" has to be replaced "поможет".

So, your guess is right, but if you were to translate what's written, it'd be::

- Selling your product in China can bring your business on the much higher level. (makes sense, huh?)

BTW, why are you saying longish "carrying out your mfg." when it is simply "manufacturing your product in China"?


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## William Stein

morzh said:


> First of, "реализация" is not manufacturing but selling for profit.
> Then, "может" has to be replaced "поможет".
> 
> So, your guess is right, but if you were to translate what's written, it'd be::
> 
> - Selling your product in China can bring your business on the much higher level. (makes sense, huh?)
> 
> BTW, why are you saying longish "carrying out your mfg." when it is simply "manufacturing your product in China"?



I'm absolutely certain that the author did not mean "selling your products in China". The whole text is about setting up production facilities in China to take advantage of the cheap materials and labour and then  exporting to the west, where the goods are obviously sold at a much higher price, in general. Rustrans gives "implementation"  as one possible meaning of реализация, and my idea is based on the idea of "implementation of production" . As to whether that is actually possible in pristine Russian of the highest literary calibre is completely irrelevant because the guy who wrote this is obviously no great orator. 
Anyway, my idea of a fun night is not to spend hours answering captious criticism "to make me pay for asking a question" (mea culpa!), but it's not a telegram so I don't have to seek out the most concise form of expression in every case (on the contrary, I'm paid by the word!), and "carry out your manufacturing" sticks closer to the original and gives them less chance to claim I made a mistake.


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## Hoax

William Stein said:


> I'm absolutely certain that the author did not mean "selling your products in China". The whole text is about setting up production facilities in China to take advantage of the cheap materials and labour and then  exporting to the west, where the goods are obviously sold at a much higher price, in general. Rustrans gives "implementation"  as one possible meaning of реализация, and my idea is based on the idea of "implementation of production" . As to whether that is actually possible in pristine Russian of the highest literary calibre is completely irrelevant because the guy who wrote this is obviously no great orator.
> Anyway, my idea of a fun night is not to spend hours answering captious criticism "to make me pay for asking a question" (mea culpa!), but it's not a telegram so I don't have to seek out the most concise form of expression in every case (on the contrary, I'm paid by the word!), and "carry out your manufacturing" sticks closer to the original and gives them less chance to claim I made a mistake.



I understand from this sentence that they suggest to sale goods in China, "реализация" - i'm sure it is type of selling goods, part of the price can be payed, or the supplier gives back money for things that are not sold, it is called consignment. If it is not what was meant, then the author of the article made the wrong word choice.


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## Maroseika

William Stein said:


> I'm absolutely certain that the author did not mean "selling your products in China".


But nevertheless Реализация Вашей продукции в Китае can mean in this context only one thing: selling your products to China. And налаженный сбыт продукции is also about the same - sales in China.
Реализация is not used in Russian in the sense of осуществление (implementation) with the word продукция (like in реализация планов, намерений, соглашений and so on). Реализация продукции is a set expression.
In brief, реализация продукции can never mean производство продукции, unless the text is written by a non-native, of course.


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## William Stein

Maroseika said:


> But nevertheless Реализация Вашей продукции в Китае can mean in this context only one thing: selling your products to China. And налаженный сбыт продукции is also about the same - sales in China.
> Реализация is not used in Russian in the sense of осуществление (implementation) with the word продукция (like in реализация планов, намерений, соглашений and so on). Реализация продукции is a set expression.
> In brief, реализация продукции can never mean производство продукции, unless the text is written by a non-native, of course.



1) Everybody said that the Russian of my text is horrible so it could well be a non-native. As I said, whether a purist would use the term that way in Russian irrelevant to my job.
2) It can't possibly mean "selling your products in China" in this context and my job is to figure out what the customer is trying to say and convey his message effectively so he can make money (it is not an empty academic exercise but a practical task)
3) The customer didn't complain
4) I bow to your superior knowledge of Russian, of coursse, but according to Rustran, Реализация can mean implementation. I also speak French, Portuguese and Spanish, and the "realisation, realização and realisación" are primarily used to mean implementation/production, so it seems pretty universal to me. Russian is changing (if not disintegrating) at such a fast rate with random introduction of foreign words, how can you say that no Russian speaker would never use the term to mean implementation even if the context suggests (even demands) the opposite?


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## Hoax

http://www.glossary.ru/cgi-bin/gl_sch2.cgi?RQlgrong.o9!vwukzq.oo



> Реализация продукции - продажа произведенных или перепродаваемых товаров и услуг,  сопровождающаяся получением денежной выручки.



Use google translator if you don't trust us.


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## morzh

William Stein said:


> 1) Everybody said that the Russian of my text is horrible so it could well be a non-native. As I said, whether a purist would use the term that way in Russian irrelevant to my job.
> 2) It can't possibly mean "selling your products in China" in this context and my job is to figure out what the customer is trying to say and convey his message effectively so he can make money (it is not an empty academic exercise but a practical task)
> 3) The customer didn't complain
> 4) I bow to your superior knowledge of Russian, of coursse, but according to Rustran, Реализация can mean implementation. I also speak French, Portuguese and Spanish, and the "realisation, realização and realisación" are primarily used to mean implementation/production, so it seems pretty universal to me. Russian is changing (if not disintegrating) at such a fast rate with random introduction of foreign words, how can you say that no Russian speaker would never use the term to mean implementation even if the context suggests (even demands) the opposite?




William,

You can argue with Maroseika alone (although I wouldn't if I were you - Russian is way too complex for you to know better than a well-educated, well-read native speaker such as Maroseika) but then you have all of us here saying the same thing to you and you are brandishing a dictionary.....amused yet?

Now, to be fair to the dictionary, "реализация в" indeed may be used as "implementation" but only in the sense of "реализация в железе / материале" meaning "the real build using particular material".
As in "реализация проекта в железе займет год" (and this is semi-collocquial). Not as "реализация продукции в стране" which means unequivocally "selling it in the country".

But this is the difference between a native speaker and a person with a dictionary.

If you want to be helped, it would benefit you to listen and not to argue, especially with all at once (any one of us may be wrong sometimes, but not all three).

There has just recently been a case of a person who came here and asked for help, only (when we pointed t his mistakes) to start later waving his status as a CIA translator, which, if anything, did not help him much judging by what transpired.

SO, do you want help, or do you want to teach us some dictionary wisdom?


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## William Stein

Instead of merely quoting my text, I ask you to read it and you will see that it refutes everything you just said. 
Just to add another thought, I am a highly-educated well-read English speaker and I would never presume to say that somebody could not possibly use "realisation" in English to mean this or that. In fact, it's used in millions of different ways and every time I see the word I have to ask myself what the hell are they talking about, even (or especially) when it's written by a professor. Here there's a horribly written non-native text in which the context makes it perfectly clear that it does not mean "to sell in China" and you insist that you know the opposite is true simply because you are Russian.


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## morzh

We have a bad telephone here.

You've misread everything you've been told.

I can repeat. You were told that this Russian text DOES MEAN "SELLING" the product. You were told that as an information.
No one argues with you that the INTENT IF THE TEXT means "building" and NOT "selling". It is clear, if not only from the fact that this is the single reason China wants to deal with you as a manufacturer; they clearly want your ORDERS to build and not your GOODS to sell.

If you left it at that, there would be no argument at all here, but your post #8, starting from the paragraph #3 is absolutely not helping. You may be the most well-read or the least well-read English speaker, and I will give you the benefit of believing the former, but this has no bearing on the subject and all you need is to meat your goals and all we need is to help you and get you on your merry way.



Now that we have established our goals her, let's do this:

All you need, as I understand, is to translate "налаженный сбыт продукции", right?

It is "*Established merchandise distribution (channels)* "

 You formulate it the best you know how.

Personally, I am not interested in 1) what you think the Russian text means, and 2) how you translate it


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## William Stein

As I said five million times now (problems with your telephone?), what matters for my translation is the INTENT. Now you finally understand that and you regurgitate back to me in capital letters as though you were having difficulty making a child understand this simple argument, and all for your mania of having the last word and trying to act superior. 
My post on #8 is relevant if you understand it: it's impossible to say with authority how an interlocutor could NOT have meant a term, even in the case of a simple term, much less a highly abstract term in the mouth of a non-native.
Anyway, I for one have to work for a living and I'm busy doing another translation so you can have a field day criticizing me, I refuse to be drawn into these interminable arguments.


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## Maroseika

William Stein said:


> 1) Everybody said that the Russian of my text is horrible so it could well be a non-native. As I said, whether a purist would use the term that way in Russian irrelevant to my job.


The text is really horrible, but this is, so to say, our native horror. This is a specimen of our bureaucratic Russian, but to use it one should know Russian too well not to mix up реализация and производство.


> 2) It can't possibly mean "selling your products in China" in this context and my job is to figure out what the customer is trying to say and convey his message effectively so he can make money (it is not an empty academic exercise but a practical task)


Maybe it cant't, but it does mean exactly selling.


> 4) I bow to your superior knowledge of Russian, of coursse, but according to Rustran, Реализация can mean implementation.


That's true, it can, but not with any word and not with продукция.
Реализация намерений, планов, мечты, пожеланий, соглашений, договоренностей, контракта means implementaion (осуществление).
But реализация продукции means selling. Реализация картофеля на рынках столицы, реализация скобяных изделий на Нижегородской ярмарке, реализация партии краденых телефонов - all this means selling.
Возьму на реализацию тонну подков means I want to take a ton of horseshoes for selling and will pay after the selling.


> I also speak French, Portuguese and Spanish, and the "realisation, realização and realisación" are primarily used to mean implementation/production, so it seems pretty universal to me.


But not in Russian, sorry...



> Russian is changing (if not disintegrating) at such a fast rate with random introduction of foreign words, how can you say that no Russian speaker would never use the term to mean implementation even if the context suggests (even demands) the opposite?


I can say that because I'm Russian native and Russian native would never use реализация продукции in the sense of производство продукции or орагнизация производства продукции.
Beleive it or not.


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## MIDAV

I like what *morzh* suggested: "*Well-established distribution (channels/system)*" sounds good to me. 

Anyway, if my customer told me "реализация продукции" means "manufacturing", I would stick to that no matter what anybody on this forum tells me (or any dictionary for that matter). My guess is *William Stein* has to retranslate (back into English) a text that has been originally (incorrectly) translated into Russian - happens all the time. It doesn’t look like a text originally composed in Russian by a native speaker.


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## football_

William Stein said:


> Everybody said that the Russian of my text is horrible so it could well be a non-native.


Actually, it is not THAT horrible. Most likely, its logic is hard to follow (I didn't read it in whole, so I can't be fully sure), but this is very common in Russia and not only to make strange texts*, and it looks like a text written by a native (maybe translated by him; at least, Russian Internet is well known for its fancifully bad translations from foreign languages, especially from English). In fact, this text is much better than many other Russian texts written by natives — at least some meaning can be extracted from it without SO much effort.

The only two facts which may point out that the writer is a foreigner, whose knowledge of Russian is very good, but not professional, are the use of the words "реализация" instead of "производство", and "может" instead of "поможет" — no one Russian native would say these in the context as long as he or she is concerned to utter a sentence, not a muddle of words. But they may just as well be misprints or translation failures, or consequences of inconsistent editing, commited by a Russian, for whom the meaning of the text was not interesting at all — her only concern was to go home from work as early as possible.

* let's remember police reports from a Swedish detective story, which were mocked by its author, Per Wahlöö, where there were, among the others, expressions like "в изобилии наблюдались черви"...


William Stein said:


> how can you say that no Russian speaker would never use the term to mean implementation even if the context suggests (even demands) the opposite?


To be philosophic, the term does mean implementation, but let's think what implementation is? Sure, for an American it could be producing; but for a native Russian's mind, goods are not "implemented" until they are sold, and the selling is the key step of implementation, so that "реализация" applies only to this step, where money for the goods emerges. And in fact goods are not truly goods until they are sold, so the way for the idea of goods to become real is for things to be sold. Note also, that the concept of goods ("товары") is abstract; and we don't apply the word "реализовать" to anything non-abstract (for example, we don't say "реализовать карандаш" if we want to mean it becomes real; but we can say so about a project, "реализовать проект" means the project becomes real, it acquires its existence in the world). So the expression "реализация товаров, продукции" just can't mean anything other than selling, just like "he paid me not once" can't mean "he paid me more than once" in English, no matter how ill-logical this seems to a Russian native speaker.


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## morzh

Well, this discussion becomes philosophical.

The translation has been suggested.


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## football_

morzh said:


> Well, this discussion becomes philosophical.
> 
> The translation has been suggested.


Well, I hope my attempt will reconcile William Stein with the seeming contradiction which in fact doesn't exist; William Stein felt right that there can't be any contradiction here, but he failed to see the right reason why there is no contradiction; I provided him with the reason.


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## Maroseika

football_ said:


> for a Russian mind, goods are not "implemented" until they are sold



I don't think this has anything to do with Russian mentality. Most of all it resembles a calque. After all, even in English "to realize" also means 'to sell' or 'to get money from sale'.
The same in French (réaliser - to convert goods in money), German (realisieren - to sell), Spanish (realizar - to sell out), Italian (realizzare azioni - to sell shares).


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## football_

Maroseika said:


> I don't think this has anything to do with Russian mentality.


It probable depends on what we take for "mentality". Yes, I'd agree with you now: the difference question is not limited to operations with goods.  The difference is broader, I think: we can't "realize" or "implement" (in the sense of making real) non-abstract things (like ships). We can only realize (that is, to make real, to bring into existence) abstract things, like goods or projects. And the ships become goods only when they are sold; that is, the goods, that we talk about (for example, calling them "корабли"), emerge, become real, existent, only when they are sold.


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## Maroseika

football_ said:


> And the ships become goods only when they are sold; that is, the goods, that we talk about (for example, calling them "корабли"), emerge, become real, existent, only when they are sold.



I'm afraid ships become goods long before they are sold. Otherwise they would never be sold, because only goods can be sold.
In a word, I don't see any reason to search the underlying sense of Russian words реализовать (продукцию) and реализовать (планы) in the depths of Russian language or mentality whatever it meant. In both meanings the word was loaned from other language(s) without any change.


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## football_

Maroseika said:


> only goods can be sold.


I mean exactly this  We can't really call a thing "товаром" until we sell it or plan to sell.


Maroseika said:


> In both meanings the word was loaned from other language(s) without any change.


And in both meanings it follows the common logic. It's not easy not to search for a common logic in related things, that's why Willian Stein was confused; and it is good when a common logic is present.


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