# Ottoman: unidentifiable text



## Chazzwozzer

I'm not sure whether this Arabic-scripted text is Arabic or any other languages.

http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birhb7.jpg
http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ikimy6.jpg
Can anybody tell me what it says on these two papers? I highly doubt if it's Ottoman. If it is, can you please transcribe the letters into Latin alphabet?

I appreciate any help!


----------



## Henryk

Can't help you, but the URL can't be retrieved.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

I'm sorry Henryk, I don't think I understand you. Are you saying that you cannot open the links? I've just checked them and they seem to be OK.


----------



## elroy

They don't work here either.


----------



## goll

well, I managed to view those images ( I used wget to download them, I don't know why firefox can't view them .... same with opera...)

but I can tell you this is not Arabic, it's written in Arabic script, but something tells me it could be Farsi ... not sure though....

I uploaded the images here :
img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birhb7.jpg
img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ikimy6.jpg


----------



## Chazzwozzer

I could manage to re-upload them on somewhere else. However, I'm having some issues with my Internet so YouSendIt.com was the only choice for me to upload. Unfortunately, they store images just for seven days, that's why I'd be glad if someone could upload them on a image-uploading sites like www.imagehosting.us or www.imageshack.us so that they can last long.

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=754355DA4CBE0365
http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=2E1F38E62C76485A

Goll, thank you. It's not likely to be Persian because I highly doubt if the writer knew Persian.


----------



## elroy

Hi, Chazzworter.  The person's handwriting is pretty bad but I'm pretty sure this is not Arabic.  I am therefore transferring your thread to the Other Languages forum, where you are more likely to get help.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

Thanks, goll and elroy. 

I'm looking forward to any suggestions.


----------



## linguist786

I was trying to see if it was Urdu, but it's very very difficult with the very _very_ scripty handwriting!! 

The thing is, it _does_ seem to have some "typical" Urdu letters, that aren't used in Arabic. For example, it has the nazalised sound: ں (Basically a ن (noon) with no dot). Also the "curly ending" which is actually a haa (ه) For example: بہ prounced "e"/"aa" when at the end of a word.

I cannot even make out one word, which suggests to me it is not Urdu. If Farsi/Persian uses the above two mentioned letters, then I would think it is Farsi/Persian. If it if not, then who knows!!


----------



## MarcB

Chazzwozzer,
There are and were many languages that use/used  Arabic script. Do you have any other clues as to its origin? Since it is handwritten it must be recent.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

The writer had lived in Ottoman times in Ottoman Empire(but this could probably be not written in Ottoman era), so it's likely to be Ottoman written in Arabic letters. (When I said "I highly doubt if it's Ottoman." I meant "I reasonably believe if it's Arabic.") It could be Arabic as well because I was told that the writer knew Arabic too. (Possibly Syrian Arabic.)

I'd be very surprised if it was in Urdu or Persian and I'd also be glad it was not in Ottoman, otherwise it'd be quite diffucult to find someone who could understand Ottoman.


----------



## cherine

If Ottoman is close to Turkish, could you find someone who know Turkish and Arabic (at least Arabic letters) ?
Because, before I read your last post, I was just going to suggest that it may be old Turkish written in Arabic Alphabet. For this is definitely not Arabic.


----------



## Tisia

NOP, it is not Persian. Looks like Urdo to me or Indian written in Persian alphabet.

Tisia


----------



## mansio

If it is not Arabic it could be Kurdish, the other great language of the Middle-East.


----------



## linguist786

Tisia said:


> NOP, it is not Persian. Looks like Urdo to me or *Indian* written in Persian alphabet.
> 
> Tisia


Which language is "Indian"?


----------



## Abu Bishr

Hi Guys

I tried to identify some of the words and do a Google search of them to see in which languages they might be used. The following “words” are based on my deciphering of the text and are by no means definitive words:

جايشما
جايشمن
مادده
دده
مادذه
دذه
تاريخند
أورطه (twice)
يرايس
برشي
أكنده
سيقور طه لي
دايكي
هرشه
كون
دورومده
دورو
يرنده

Findings: Most of these “words” (if I’ve read them correctly) seem to be used in (Iranian) Persian & Kurdish

Some observations: 
(1) The writer is using both Arabic & Hindi numerals
(2) After numbers 150, 1000 & 200 he uses something like كون , and after the number 60 he uses something like ياشي 
(3) The figure 1 / 4 / 950 is a date of some sort because of the word تاريخند which means “date” or “history”
(4) Paragraphs 1 & 2 both seem to end with the same two words
(5) جايشما & جايشمن appear to be some type of inflection

I hope this will shed a little more light on the text.


----------



## linguist786

Wow.. I'm impressed Abu Bishr!! I can _definitely_ say now that it's not Urdu


----------



## mansio

If it is not Arabic, nor Persian, nor Urdu then it must be Kurdish.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

http://show.imagehosting.us/show/1588065/0/nouser_1588/T0_-1_1588065.jpg

I scaned a page of notebook where those two papers were attached to. I believe it's an account, because I can read "Cemal'de kalan." which was written in Latin script on the top, while others are in Arabic letters. If you think this handwrite is different than the other on papers, then those papers were given to person who kept them in his notebook for years. Then, they might be in Persian, Kurdish and Urdu, but if they don't belong to anybody else, then I must say Kurdish, Persian or Urdu are not quite possible.

Cherine, can you please enlighten me about this:
-If somebody knows both Arabic letters and Latin letters, can they transliterate them into Latin script? Actually, I'm more confused than that because I have no clue how Ottoman in Arabic letters works, since I always saw it in Latin script. Does it matter? I'll stick to Ottoman, though. I strongly believe it's in Ottoman now.

Thank you, guys.


----------



## panjabigator

How about pashto or some other Dardic language?


----------



## Chazzwozzer

panjabigator said:


> How about pashto or some other Dardic language?



If these papers were written by himself, not given by anybody else, then I have to say it's Ottoman, which is the only choice left.


----------



## cherine

Chazzwozzer said:


> http://show.imagehosting.us/show/1588065/0/nouser_1588/T0_-1_1588065.jpg
> 
> I scaned a page of notebook where those two papers were attached to. I believe it's an account, because I can read "Cemal'de kalan." which was written in Latin script on the top, while others are in Arabic letters. If you think this handwrite is different than the other on papers, then those papers were given to person who kept them in his notebook for years. Then, they might be in Persian, Kurdish and Urdu, but if they don't belong to anybody else, then I must say Kurdish, Persian or Urdu are not quite possible.
> 
> Cherine, can you please enlighten me about this:
> -If somebody knows both Arabic letters and Latin letters, can they transliterate them into Latin script? Actually, I'm more confused than that because I have no clue how Ottoman in Arabic letters works, since I always saw it in Latin script. Does it matter? I'll stick to Ottoman, though. I strongly believe it's in Ottoman now.
> Thank you, guys.





Chazzwozzer said:


> If these papers were written by himself, not given by anybody else, then I have to say it's Ottoman, which is the only choice left.


- Regarding the transliteration, I think Abu Bishr did a fine job in his post.
I'll add to this new photo, the transliteration of the first lines (after those in Latin letters) of the page to the write :
masraf (this word resembles the Arabic one : "masruuf" = expenses)
alti kunda
....
radieh toor
lastec
Sah Talmash aftaam benah
(Notice I'm not very sure about the vowels)

- As for the handwriting, I think this new page is in a different handwritting, (a slightly worse one  )
- While I don't understand what's written, I could guess it's a list of items' prices
- As I said before, if this text is written by an [old] Turkish person, it most probably would be old Turkish (i.e. Turkish before Kemal).
Speaking of which, is this what you mean by "Ottoman" ? or is Ottoman language so different from Turkish ?
Either ways, this is my guess, and I dare think it's the most valid one until now


----------



## Chazzwozzer

cherine said:


> - Regarding the transliteration, I think Abu Bishr did a fine job in his post.
> I'll add to this new photo, the transliteration of the first lines (after those in Latin letters) of the page to the write :
> masraf (this word resembles the Arabic one : "masruuf" = expenses)


Masraf: harcama=expense. Yep, we hit this. 


cherine said:


> alti kunda


If it's actually altı kundura, then it's altı ayakkabı, which means six shoes.


cherine said:


> radieh toor


Rings no bell.


cherine said:


> lastec


Oh, lastik. It's a tire.


cherine said:


> Sah Talmash aftaam benah


No idea but cherine, is there a reason why you capalized S and T?


cherine said:


> - As for the handwriting, I think this new page is in a different handwritting, (a slightly worse one  )


Now I can tell it's in Ottoman, not sure about the other papers though.


cherine said:


> - While I don't understand what's written, I could guess it's a list of items' prices


Exactly. It looks so. 


cherine said:


> - As I said before, if this text is written by an [old] Turkish person, it most probably would be old Turkish (i.e. Turkish before Kemal).
> Speaking of which, is this what you mean by "Ottoman" ? or is Ottoman language so different from Turkish ?


Depends on which variant of Ottoman we're talking about, actually. I read a bit of "Eloquent Ottoman" in Latin letters at school, as a topic of Old Literature and everyone had no idea what it was saying without modern translations. I found a list of some words here.

Some linguists claim it's a dialect of Turkish written in different alphabet and different words, I don't know much about what to say on this matter because of the fact that we only learn language evolution after the reform of language modernization. I hope I made myself clear. 

Thank you very much.


----------



## cherine

Chazzwozzer said:


> Masraf: harcama=expense. Yep, we hit this.
> If it's actually altı kundura, then it's altı ayakkabı, which means six shoes.
> Oh, lastik. It's a tire.


Great ! I'm glad we could come to some conclusion 
Remember, I said I wasn't sure about the vowels, because in Arabic alphabet, we rarely put the short vowels, so I could never tell what the vowels are, specially for unknown words.



> No idea but cherine, is there a reason why you capalized S and T?


To differentiate between the two quasi similar sounds in Arabic
s= س
S= ص
t = ت
T= ط 
I don't know if these sounds S-T ص-ط existed in Ottoman, but they were written in that page, so I transliterated them as such.



> Depends on which variant of Ottoman we're talking about, actually. I read a bit of "Eloquent Ottoman" in Latin letters at school, as a topic of Old Literature and everyone had no idea what it was saying without modern translations. I found a list of some words here.


Very interesting list   You'll find those letters I told you about ص-ط in some of the words.



> Some linguists claim it's a dialect of Turkish written in different alphabet and different words, I don't know much about what to say on this matter because of the fact that we only learn language evolution after the reform of language modernization. I hope I made myself clear.


Well, this is interesting, but itsn't another subject 



> Thank you very much.


Thank _you_  it was interesting to do this " language detective" work 
And I'm glad we could come to conclusion


----------



## Chazzwozzer

Other pages of the notebook are full of that kind of accounts, I'm glad we've found out what they are. 

Is there a still hope for our mysterious papers? At least, is it possible to Latinize the words which Abu Bishr listed, just like cherine did?

جايشما
جايشمن
مادده
دده
مادذه
دذه
تاريخند
أورطه 
يرايس
برشي
أكنده
سيقور طه لي
دايكي
هرشه
كون
دورومده
دورو
يرنده


----------



## Abu Bishr

This is the latinized version of these words:

جايشما (ja-yishma)
جايشمن (ja-yishman)
مادده (mada-dah or madi-dah)
دده (dadah)
مادذه (mada-thah or matha-thah)
دذه (da-thah or tha-thah)
تاريخند (tarikhand)
أورطه (Urtah or Oortah)
يرايس (yarayis)
برشي (barshi)
أكنده (akandah)
سيقور طه لي (siqur / siqoor tah li)
دايكي (da-yiki - da-yikee)
هرشه (harshah or harsheh)
كون (kon / kawn)
دورومده (durumandah / dooroomandah)
دورو (duru / dooroo)
يرنده (yarandah)
 
These are some other "words" I was able to make out on the second document:
 
لاستك (lastik)
طلمسن (talmasan)
داشدان (dashdan)
بانا (bana)
دوغوم (dughum / dooghoom)
أرندن (arandan)
الندن (alandan)
كمور (kamur)
ارصه (arsah / arseh)
بايلان (bayalan)
أبشير (abshir / absheer)
استا سبو (ista sabu)
 
Again, Google showed that many of these words are also used in Persian. 
 
Also, I noticed in this document that the dates seem to be very close to the other one : 
 
(1 / 4 / 950) on the first doc. and 
 
(23 / 3 / 953) and (22 / 3 / 953) on the second doc.
 
Also note that the writer of the second doc. mixes up Hindi & Arabic numerals in first date.
 
What is very significant in both doc's is the (-an) & (-ah /-eh) endings.


----------



## mansio

I don't know how old the paper is but could not the dates simply be 1/4/1950 and 23/3/1953?


----------



## Chazzwozzer

I found a Ottoman-Modern Turkish dictionary, so I'm checking possible Ottoman words in Latin.


Abu Bishr said:


> This is the latinized version of these words:
> جايشما (ja-yishma)
> جايشمن (ja-yishman)


Yazışma and yazışman-correspondence and correspondent come to my mind, but I think these were not used in Ottoman. It still could be.





Abu Bishr said:


> مادده (mada-dah or madi-dah)


No idea.


Abu Bishr said:


> ددهdadah)


I found many similiar and unrelated words but this one, I believe, is the best=> DÂDHAH. I didn't get what it really means, but it says "sb that wants justice)





Abu Bishr said:


> مادذه (mada-thah or matha-thah)
> دذه (da-thah or tha-thah)


Unfortunately, nothing found.





Abu Bishr said:


> تاريخند (tarikhand)


Nothing found in the dictionary but there's a word still used and resembles this one in Turkish: tarikat. (sect, religious order etc.)





Abu Bishr said:


> أورطه (Urtah or Oortah)


I say it's ortak. (sidekick) But not very sure.





Abu Bishr said:


> يرايس (yarayis)


If it was yarayış, then it'd sound just like Turkish, but still it means nothing.





Abu Bishr said:


> برشي (barshi)


It sounds like "başı" (his head)





Abu Bishr said:


> أكنده (akandah)


Hmmm.. Just like others, it kind of reminds of something but I just cannot recall it exactly.





Abu Bishr said:


> سيقور طه لي (siqur / siqoor tah li)


دايكي (da-yiki - da-yikee)[/quote]
I found DAYYIK in the dictionary, it means "very narrow" but I don't it has anything to do with this word, though.





Abu Bishr said:


> هرشه (harshah or harsheh)


HARŞ=>to hunt, according to Ottoman dictionary. For the rest, "eh" or "ah", I cannot say anything.





Abu Bishr said:


> كون (kon / kawn)


Can it be kan? I mean, blood?!





Abu Bishr said:


> دورومده (durumandah / dooroomandah)


It starts with doğru-right, but cannot recognize the rest.





Abu Bishr said:


> دورو (duru / dooroo)


It's gotta be doğru-right.





Abu Bishr said:


> يرنده (yarandah)


I'd it's "yarın da" (tomorrow, too)

These are some other "words" I was able to make out on the second document:


Abu Bishr said:


> لاستك (lastik)


Yes, lastik.





Abu Bishr said:


> طلمسن (talmasan)


Hmmm... No idea.





Abu Bishr said:


> داشدان (dashdan)


Sounds like taştan-from stone/out of stone





Abu Bishr said:


> بانا (bana)


It's absolutely bana, me.





Abu Bishr said:


> دوغوم (dughum / dooghoom)


It's probably doğum, birth





Abu Bishr said:


> أرندن (arandan)


Arandan? "From your break/distance" Makes no sense, it's gotta be something else.





Abu Bishr said:


> الندن (alandan)


Alandan-from the buyer





Abu Bishr said:


> كمور (kamur)


If it's kömür, then it's coal





Abu Bishr said:


> ارصه (arsah / arseh)


Arsa is land, lot, plot. 





Abu Bishr said:


> بايلان (bayalan)


That also sounds familiar but cannot think of anything exactly.





Abu Bishr said:


> أبشير (abshir / absheer)


No idea.





Abu Bishr said:


> استا سبو (ista sabu)


First word sounds like "işte"(there!) but not sure about the other. If it's tapu not sabu, then it'd mean land register.



Abu Bishr said:


> Again, Google showed that many of these words are also used in Persian.


That makes sense because there were so many Persian words in Ottoman.
 


Abu Bishr said:


> Also, I noticed in this document that the dates seem to be very close to the other one :
> 
> (1 / 4 / 950) on the first doc. and
> 
> (23 / 3 / 953) and (22 / 3 / 953) on the second doc.
> 
> Also note that the writer of the second doc. mixes up Hindi & Arabic numerals in first date.




What is very significant in both doc's is the (-an) & (-ah /-eh) endings.

[/quote]

By second document, you mean this, right?

Abu Bishr, what you've done is greately appreciated. Thank you very much. 



mansio said:


> I don't know how old the paper is but could not the dates simply be 1/4/1950 and 23/3/1953?


If you mean because it's after language form, right but also consider that there were many people who could write in both Latin and Arabic letters unlike today. Nowadays, It's EXTREMELY difficult to find someone who can read and tell what, for example, this text says. If you mean something else, then I'm sorry.


----------



## ireney

It might seem strange but I have been following this thread with a lot of interest!

Has anybody been able to come with a translation even filled with gaps?


----------



## badgrammar

I've been following to!  

I saw one thing posted by Cherine that I think Chazz did not pick up on when he sounded the transliteration out: 



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by cherine
> radieh toor



Radyatör !  

Ne dusunuyor musun, Chazz?

Another thought on this: 


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Abu Bishr
> داشدان (dashdan)
> Sounds like taştan-from stone/out of stone



Since this would seem to be a list with items like tires (lastik), and possibly a radiator, could "daş" be the word used to speak of a car's "dash(board)?  So maybe it could be "daş'dan", from the dashboard?


----------



## cherine

My own interest is growing too 
And there's one more thing I said before, and would like to remind you Chazzwozer with it : Don't count too much on Abu Bishr's transliteration and mine in what regards vowels.
Here's a random example :
أكنده it can be
ukunda
akunda
ukanda
akanda
uknada
aknada
aknida
uknida
......
It's because Arabic writing doesn't always show short vowels, which are marked by diacritical marks not vowels, unlike the long vowels á ا, í ي, ú و 
So maybe if you take this in consideration, it can give you more leads ?



Chazzwozzer said:


> Nothing found in the dictionary but there's a word still used and resembles this one in Turkish: tarikat. (sect, religious order etc.)


I think the word tarikat is to be written like this طريقة or طريقت but this word is تاريخند which is 1) completely different and, 2) reminds me of the word تاريخ (tarikh) -where the "kh" stands for the Spanish "j"- which means date.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

badgrammar said:


> Radyatör !
> 
> Ne dusunuyor musun, Chazz?


Çok iyi bir tahmin.

As I know, the writer had a truck, so it's quite prossible. Too bad I've missed it. 



badgrammar said:


> Another thought on this:
> 
> 
> Since this would seem to be a list with items like tires (lastik), and possibly a radiator, could "daş" be the word used to speak of a car's "dash(board)?  So maybe it could be "daş'dan", from the dashboard?


Well, I'm impressed. It could be, yes. I don't think there was a popular Turkish or Ottoman equivalent for dashboard in those days and dashboard was probably what he meant in the text.

Başka önerin var mı? Yardımın için çok sağ ol.



cherine said:


> My own interest is growing too
> And there's one more thing I said before, and would like to remind you Chazzwozer with it : Don't count too much on Abu Bishr's transliteration and mine in what regards vowels.
> Here's a random example :
> أكنده it can be
> ukunda
> akunda
> ukanda
> akanda
> uknada
> aknada
> aknida
> uknida
> ......
> It's because Arabic writing doesn't always show short vowels, which are marked by diacritical marks not vowels, unlike the long vowels á ا, í ي, ú و
> So maybe if you take this in consideration, it can give you more leads ?


Hmmm, I re-read the words a couple of times more and I kind of receognize two words:

طلمسن (talmasan)
If you don't X (-masan)
If it's dalmasan, then it's "If you don't dive"
 
دورومده (durumandah / dooroomandah)
Durmadan-continually



cherine said:


> I think the word tarikat is to be written like this طريقة or طريقت but this word is تاريخند which is 1) completely different and, 2) reminds me of the word تاريخ (tarikh) -where the "kh" stands for the Spanish "j"- which means date.


Tarih is date, right. Maybe it's "tarihinde" (at the date of X)

Cherine, what do you think this:
كون (kon / kawn)
Could it be kan(blood)?
(Imagine a British pronounced "*can*'t", It is how kan sounds.)


----------



## cherine

This exercice is getting more interesting every day 


Chazzwozzer said:


> Tarih is date, right. Maybe it's "tarihinde" (at the date of X)


Yes, most probably.



> Cherine, what do you think this:
> كون (kon / kawn)
> Could it be kan(blood)?
> (Imagine a British pronounced "*can*'t", It is how kan sounds.)


I'm not very sure about what it may be, but it sure isn't like the British can
It's either kún or kawn. Doesn't any of these two ring any bells ?


----------



## Chazzwozzer

cherine said:


> This exercice is getting more interesting every day
> 
> Yes, most probably.
> 
> 
> I'm not very sure about what it may be, but it sure isn't like the British can
> It's either kún or kawn. Doesn't any of these two ring any bells ?


Kon means sometling like "settle" actually but, well, it seems sort of unnatural to me. However, I say maybe it's gün(day.)


----------



## Binapesi

It has been a very long time since the last post but i've just seen the thread. So, if you still want to learn, i'll search.

I had taken Ottoman-Turkish courses in a time but the handwriting is so bad that i can't read the words. Even if i did, all the words wouldn't be understandable.
But an excellent teacher was teaching me. I'll print the papers and take him. I hope, he'll be able to read.


----------



## Alijsh

The links to images has expired so I couldn't see them. From the posted words I guess it belongs to a Turkic language.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

Alijsh said:


> The links to images has expired so I couldn't see them. From the posted words I guess it belongs to a Turkic language.


Links in the first post still work and yes, it's Ottoman.


----------



## Cepkah

Abu Bishr said:


> This is the latinized version of these words:
> 
> جايشما (ja-yishma)  that's may be Chim instead of Jim because the symbole of this letter is rather like a triangle without its heel
> جايشمن (ja-yishman) same issue (but unfortunately i couldn't find out what it means)
> مادده (mada-dah or madi-dah) (that can be hadde (sınırda) in ottoman we can consider the first letter as Hı(with point)) (but not madde because madde is a arabic word and written with an d the ''shedde'' makes d double such as Mohamed-Mohammed)
> دده (dadah) (that's dede and it means grandfather in ottoman)
> مادذه (mada-thah or matha-thah)
> دذه (da-thah or tha-thah)
> تاريخند (tarikhand)
> أورطه (Urtah or Oortah) (that's orta it means middle in ottoman)
> يرايس (yarayis)
> برشي (barshi)
> أكنده (akandah)
> سيقور طه لي (siqur / siqoor tah li) ( that's sigortalı it means assured)
> دايكي (da-yiki - da-yikee)
> هرشه (harshah or harsheh)
> كون (kon / kawn) (gün (day) is written like that in ottoman)
> دورومده (durumandah / dooroomandah)
> دورو (duru / dooroo) (duru natural in ottoman)
> يرنده (yarandah) (yerinde means it depens the meaning according to the text).


Even if some words are exactly same in ottoman(i couldn't read all the text that's why it is very different from Rika-a writing system of arabic alphabet for the ottoman language, which is developped by the ottomans), it is very hard to say that is in ottoman because it is always used the arabic numbers in ottoman. At least if we had found out a conjugated verb following with the words that is related to verb's meaning, we could have declared that this script was written in ottoman.

 بانا (bana) can't be "to me" because the writing of Bana (to me) in ottoman is quite different.  

bana (to me) is written like بكا
Kef signifies three different letters in modern turkish ''ğ'', ''k'', ''n'' but it is not ''n'' that is used today. It was called the ''nasal N'' and pronunciated from the nasal  (Ex; Tengiz-Deniz, Banga-Bana, Eng büyük- en büyük) but its pronunciation is thereafter tranformed into other N's voice.
Though this letter has started to sound like such today's N since 18th century, this letter was used untill the renovation of Turkish by M. Kemal Ataürk. But during  some periodes (some decades) especially in 20th century, it is possible to see sb who writes N by using N (Nun)instead of K  (Nasal N, Genizsi N-Kef)
However, if somebody could read at least one phares totally, it can be very helpful for Us. My ottoman lessons are terminated so i am unable to ask my ottoman teacher this aspect may be next term why not


----------



## Babakexorramdin

This is indeed Ottoman Turkish.
I could not read much of its handwritings but I recognized some Turkish in it.


----------



## sound shift

cherine said:


> Sah Talmash aftaam benah
> (Notice I'm not very sure about the vowels)



I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that I think "Sah Talmash" is either Shah Tahmasp I of Iran (r 1524-1576) or Shah Tahmasp II of Iran (r 1723-1732).


----------



## Babakexorramdin

sound shift said:


> I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say that I think "Sah Talmash" is either Shah Tahmasp I of Iran (r 1524-1576) or Shah Tahmasp II of Iran (r 1723-1732).


 
this document is too new to deal with Shah Tahmasp.
It is most probably something related to business. I also read the world Iade ( paying back). And in some cases it uses the Romanized version of the Arabic numbers. It is most probably a 20th century document. In any case not older than late 19th century.


----------



## sound shift

The era in which a document is produced need not be the same as the era of the people and events described in it. I defer to your opinion that this document is about business and probably dates from the twentieth century, because I cannot read Arabic script, but I have seen plenty of 20th-century documents that refer to 16th-century events. As Chazzwozzer spotted, "Sah" and "Talmash" are capitalised, so I think we are dealing with a proper noun. All things considered, I still think I may be right about Shah Tahmasp.


----------



## Babakexorramdin

sound shift said:


> The era in which a document is produced need not be the same as the era of the people and events described in it. I defer to your opinion that this document is about business and probably dates from the twentieth century, because I cannot read Arabic script, but I have seen plenty of 20th-century documents that refer to 16th-century events. As Chazzwozzer spotted, "Sah" and "Talmash" are capitalised, so I think we are dealing with a proper noun. All things considered, I still think I may be right about Shah Tahmasp.


 

You are basically right, but the Arabic script has no capitalization. The words which could be Shah Tahmasp is not easily readable it could alsi be read as Shu/i- tah-n?) It is a hastily written document and what I can see is that it is summrizing something or put into order by numbers. It has sections numbered 1, 2, 3

The other word which by one member is read as Chishma is Chalishma. It is used 2 times as I can see


----------



## sound shift

Ok, you've convinced me. Forget my Shah Tahmasp theory.

Here's my new theory: part of the text is about a car. Here's why:-

1.) It contains the word "lastec", which as Chazz explains in post #23, could be the Turkish "lastik", which means "tire" in AE ("tyre" in BE).

2.) The text also contains "radieh toor", which one of the foreros (Chazz, I think) says "rings no bells". But, occurring so close to "lastec", this is surely the Turkish "radyatör": "radiator" in English.

3.) As you say, Babakexorramdin, one of the words could be "chalishma". This is surely the Turkish "çalışma", which means "work", I believe.


----------



## Tangriberdi

جايشما (ja-yishma): may be cayışma give up together, go back on together, to back out of something together. withdraw together, retreat together.
جايشمن (ja-yishman): may be those who do the action of cayışma
دده (dadah):Sounds like dede, grandfather or dedi, said, told
أورطه (Urtah or Oortah): Sounds like orta, middle, centre
يرايس (yarayis): That cannnot be yarayış, because Arabic letter is equivalnt to an s
أكنده (akandah): Maybe akanda that is when it flows (akınca) or may be ekende (ekince) when s/he sows, plants or may be akındı (archaic form of akıntı, current, stream, flow, leak, flux)
سيقور طه لي (siqur / siqoor tah li): sounds like sigortalı, having insurance , insured
دورومده (durumandah / dooroomandah): this is probably durumunda , in the case of that or dürümünde ,in his or her dürüm, a kind of food that is made by folding the covering stuff.
دورو (duru / dooroo): this means clear or limpid
يرنده (yarandah) : yaranda (yarınca) when s/he splits, cuts, rends, cleaves (the verb root yarmak) or may be yerende (yerince), when s/he criticizes, disparages, runs down, satirizes

داشدان (dashdan): Sounds like dışdan (archaic form of dıştan, outside, exterior, external, or daşdan , made of stones, made of bricks (modern Turkish Taştan)
دوغوم (dughum / dooghoom): sounds like düğüm, knot or doğum, birth
الندن (alandan) :sounds like from the field, from the area or from that one who took/ bought ....
ارصه (arsah / arseh): arsa: building land, building field


----------



## Babakexorramdin

sound shift said:


> Ok, you've convinced me. Forget my Shah Tahmasp theory.
> 
> Here's my new theory: part of the text is about a car. Here's why:-
> 
> 1.) It contains the word "lastec", which as Chazz explains in post #23, could be the Turkish "lastik", which means "tire" in AE ("tyre" in BE).
> 
> 2.) The text also contains "radieh toor", which one of the foreros (Chazz, I think) says "rings no bells". But, occurring so close to "lastec", this is surely the Turkish "radyatör": "radiator" in English.
> 
> 3.) As you say, Babakexorramdin, one of the words could be "chalishma". This is surely the Turkish "çalışma", which means "work", I believe.


 

Yes I am very sure of Chalishma.


----------



## Babakexorramdin

Tangriberdi said:


> جايشما (ja-yishma): may be cayışma give up together, go back on together, to back out of something together. withdraw together, retreat together.
> جايشمن (ja-yishman): may be those who do the action of cayışma
> دده (dadah):Sounds like dede, grandfather or dedi, said, told
> أورطه (Urtah or Oortah): Sounds like orta, middle, centre
> يرايس (yarayis): That cannnot be yarayış, because Arabic letter is equivalnt to an s
> أكنده (akandah): Maybe akanda that is when it flows (akınca) or may be ekende (ekince) when s/he sows, plants or may be akındı (archaic form of akıntı, current, stream, flow, leak, flux)
> سيقور طه لي (siqur / siqoor tah li): sounds like sigortalı, having insurance , insured
> دورومده (durumandah / dooroomandah): this is probably durumunda , in the case of that or dürümünde ,in his or her dürüm, a kind of food that is made by folding the covering stuff.
> دورو (duru / dooroo): this means clear or limpid
> يرنده (yarandah) : yaranda (yarınca) when s/he splits, cuts, rends, cleaves (the verb root yarmak) or may be yerende (yerince), when s/he criticizes, disparages, runs down, satirizes
> 
> 
> داشدان (dashdan): Sounds like dışdan (archaic form of dıştan, outside, exterior, external, or daşdan , made of stones, made of bricks (modern Turkish Taştan)
> دوغوم (dughum / dooghoom): sounds like düğüm, knot or doğum, birth
> الندن (alandan) :sounds like from the field, from the area or from that one who took/ bought ....
> ارصه (arsah / arseh): arsa: building land, building field


 

I am sure it is chalishma not chayishma. 
It is elinde- in your hand not alanda

Also Akanda might be the same badly written. Elinde.

But it can be Persian loanword Akande = satisfied, ful (of)

I think that Orta is indeed Ora meaning middle, but as it is written with Teyn and Teyn sounded sometimes as T (Tavuk) and sometimes as D (Oda, ada), it could be also orda (in there).

there is no dadah or dede there. it tis written Mad-de and might be even Maz-de 

duru is most probably dur ve ( is and).

Dashdan could not be the modern Turkish tashtan. Because some T (with teyn) sounded like d, and not vice versa. T in modern Turkish was not written as d!

Finally I think Yarandah might be yer-in-de = in your place.
It might be also the Persian Parande (bird) but I doubt it in this context.


----------



## badgrammar

That was certainly my theory, back in post #30 !  I also saw similarities with the word "dashdan", which sounds like someone talking about a car's "daş" (from "dashboard")...



sound shift said:


> Ok, you've convinced me. Forget my Shah Tahmasp theory.
> 
> Here's my new theory: part of the text is about a car. Here's why:-
> 
> 1.) It contains the word "lastec", which as Chazz explains in post #23, could be the Turkish "lastik", which means "tire" in AE ("tyre" in BE).
> 
> 2.) The text also contains "radieh toor", which one of the foreros (Chazz, I think) says "rings no bells". But, occurring so close to "lastec", this is surely the Turkish "radyatör": "radiator" in English.
> 
> 3.) As you say, Babakexorramdin, one of the words could be "chalishma". This is surely the Turkish "çalışma", which means "work", I believe.


----------



## sound shift

Ah, sorry, Badgrammar! I only scan-read some of the posts.


----------



## badgrammar

Babakexorramdin said:


> there is no dadah or dede there. it tis written Mad-de and might be even Maz-de (Did somebody say "Mazda? )
> 
> duru is most probably dur ve ( is and). (Related to brakes/brake lights? Dur in Turkish is "Stop")
> 
> Dashdan could not be the modern Turkish tashtan. Because some T (with teyn) sounded like d, and not vice versa. T in modern Turkish was not written as d! (See above theory about dashboard - from the dash)...
> 
> Finally I think Yarandah might be yer-in-de = in your place.
> It might be also the Persian Parande (bird) but I doubt it in this context.(Turkish "yerinde" - places, "her yerinde" - everywhere)


 .

I wonder if we'll ever get to the bottom of this one?


----------



## sound shift

I'm still puzzled by the years in the dates on these documents: 950 and 953. One of the foreros asked if they could mean *1*950 and *1*953. Turkey switched to Latin characters in 1928 - would anybody have still been writing Ottoman, which used Arabic characters, in the 1950s?

Perhaps the dates indicate when the documents were found, as opposed to when they were produced.

I have also considered the possibility that the dates use the old, Ottoman, system of counting years from Mohamed's flight to Medina, but that would mean that the documents were drawn up around the year 1600 - very unlikely for a number of reasons.


----------



## Babakexorramdin

sound shift said:


> I'm still puzzled by the years in the dates on these documents: 950 and 953. One of the foreros asked if they could mean *1*950 and *1*953. Turkey switched to Latin characters in 1928 - would anybody have still been writing Ottoman, which used Arabic characters, in the 1950s?
> 
> Perhaps the dates indicate when the documents were found, as opposed to when they were produced.
> 
> I have also considered the possibility that the dates use the old, Ottoman, system of counting years from Mohamed's flight to Medina, but that would mean that the documents were drawn up around the year 1600 - very unlikely for a number of reasons.


 
This is also what I think. Apparently some people kept on using the old alphaber for some time, as they were used to the older one. Especially when someone wants to write down rapidly, the older alphabet is better as many vowels are not written. When the date system was Hegira dates then they would have been in the 13...s
It is not a strange casee in many cases people use what they were used too. E.g. in those Soviet republics where the Cyrlic was replaced with Latin, still many/ most of people use the cyrilic ones.


----------



## Babakexorramdin

badgrammar said:


> .
> 
> I wonder if we'll ever get to the bottom of this one?


 
dur  is probably the Turkish Dur (another variant of dir= is).

Abot mad-de, maz-de. It is written two times one time as Mad-de and another time there is a point above one d, which makes is as a z (zal/dhal).

What I think is that the person who wrote it was not very well informed in spelling. Madde means material, but it is written with one d and then tashdid sign above it (or nothing at all). When yoiu hear it though you hear clearly two D-s.

It is handwritten and not typed, it is not an official document made by an offical body. I think someone wrote it in his shop or something, maybe in a store. In older times many people did not go (for a long time) to school. This was maybe someone who had learned writing by himself, or only enjoyed a few years of primary education.
Also the Turkish is not the High ottoman Turkish. It shows daily used words and simple construction. It is not the High Turkish of Ottomans with a lot of Persian. 
I also think that this might be a document from the republican period, but can also be an "unimportant" document from the Ottoman period.


----------



## badgrammar

Well, my take on it is that it is, as Baba said, a very unnofficial document...  and I think it's probably nothing very exotic, or historical or political. 

Attaturk is the one who got folks writing with the Roman alphabet, right?  That policy began in 1932, I believe.  So most people who were already adults in 32 probably learned to write in Arabic script.  So this doc could have been written by someone in 1920,1930,1940,1950, even later.  

And given the numbers (probably prices, not dates or else it would surely be 1950 - 1953) and the few words we can pick up and piece together, I am pretty darn sure it's nothing more exotic than a bill (or even just someone's private notes jotted down quickly) for the repair or sale of a used vehicle.


----------



## Grosvenor1

Turkish speakers in the middle of the 20th century and even later sometimes used Arabic script as a kind of shorthand, as it is cursive and many vowels need not be written. Redhouse's Turkish-English dictionary, revised in 1963, includes a great many Ottoman words, mostly of Arabic and Persian origin, that had passed out of use. An imam had written out by hand the spellings of many of these words in Ottoman Arabic script - quite a major bit of work for such a large dictionary. 

By and large, most inhabitants of Turkey cannot read Arabic script and Ottoman documents are a closed book to them. Even Turkey's Arabic-speaking minority (mostly found in Hatay, near the Syrian border) cannot read it in most cases. The fact that their colloquial dialect is some way removed from the standard Arabic that is usually what is written down in the Arab world does not help.

It is a testimony to the great change (perhaps for the worse?) brought on by the alphabet change and language reform that deciphering what may be no more significant than an old-fashioned Turkish laundry list takes on the characteristics of deciphering Linear B, or Etruscan.


----------



## sound shift

badgrammar said:


> Well, my take on it is that it is, as Baba said, a very unnofficial document...  and I think it's probably nothing very exotic, or historical or political.
> 
> Attaturk is the one who got folks writing with the Roman alphabet, right?  That policy began in 1932, I believe.



Actually it began in 1928, not that four years make much difference to the puzzle facing us. The correct spelling of the name of the man who introduced the reform is Atatürk, by the way.


----------



## Spectre scolaire

I remember I looked at this text when it came up anew 9th May 2007, but then, being absent during the whole summer, I missed the continuation, i.e. the late August resumption of the debate, after which the “unidentifiable text” slipped back into the catacombes of the WR.com...

A small detail in the text convinced me from the very beginning that this was unmistakably Ottoman Turkish – written by a person with a limited education, but probably at least having finished compulsory schooling before 1928. The handwriting seems typically Turkish to me – I have got many specimens in my archives which are not next to me where I am now - it is fluent (which means that he is not “drawing each letter” like a half-literate would have done, indeed it is written with such a quick pencil[!] that it is awkward to read), and it is symptomatic of most people who learned how to write before the “letter revolution” (_harf inkıl__âbı_) and who never got any higher education that there are orthographic errors galore. Remember that every Turkish word of Arabic origin had to be written like it is written in Arabic – even if it is pronounced differently! Hence the only way to become fluent in Ottoman Turkish is *a*) to learn Arabic and/or *b*) to read an awful lot. Our person was definitely not a learned man. As a comparison, to learn Persian with the textbook written by Ann K. Lambton (_Persian Grammar_), you have to cope with _exactly one third of the textbook_ being an introduction to Arabic! Ottoman Turkish was not very different in terms of nationally “irrelevant” requirements.

What caught my attention when first looking at the text was the date. The text reads 1/4/950 tarihinde, “dated April 1st 1950”. It is not “tarikhand” as suggested by _Abu Bishr_, nor its interpretation by _Chazzwozzer_ as “tarikat”, but simply tarih + possessive pronoun {I} (being an _izafet_ construction linked to the date) + buffer letter _n_ + de (=locative suffix). The fact that _tarih_ is spelt in a wrong way, is just a case in point. I read a _k__āf_. For comparison, see next line which (probably) reads 1000 kere, “1000 times”.

Of course, _Abu Bishr_ couldn’t possibly know that the vowel of the _apparently_ last syllable is *i* and not *a*, nor would he guess how to interpret the _t__ā’ marbūTa_ at the end. Ottoman Turkish (with its 8 vowels!) is an exigent exercise if you are “only” used to Arabic (possessing 3 vowels). The Arabic alphabet was created for Arabic, not for Turkish...

The document’s way of writing a date is was typically Turkish. The slashes are one thing, but much more idiosyncratic is to skip _mille_. In the beginning of the 70s this was still very common (I regularly saw *974* in 1974!), but from the early 80s – the opening up of the Turkish market following the reforms of Turgut Özal, perhaps – a change occurred, and _mille_ was surreptitiously reintroduced. “Nobody” really noticed it, but some official memorandum must have circulated to the effect, I suppose.

I am not going to deliver a full transcription of the text – simply because I can’t read the whole thing.  I might do better than just furnish a couple of words, though.  Only, this is admittedly a very time-consuming exercise. 
 ​


----------

