# Rule



## ThomasK

I am just wondering about your equivalent for *'rule'* and the words that are linked with it, maybe the etymological base. Maybe we can focus on the noun (the rule), the verb (to rule) and the adjectieve (_right/ straight_), but any contributions are welcome !

When I think of the Germanic and Romanic words, most of them seem based on Lat. _regula:_ 



> "*straight stick*, bar, ruler, pattern," related to _*regere*_ "to rule, *straighten*, guide"


 
So setting out rules, seems to be setting out straight lines, which does not seem so strange at all. And it is quite amazing how many *Dutch words* are linked with it . I just mention: 
_*recht*_ (straight), but also _*het recht*_ (the right, justice), _*regelen*_ (to rule, to order), even _*rekken*_ (stretch), _*rekenen*_ (calculate). 

I see other roots in the previous thread (_Exception/ rule_), but what are they? And are other words derived from it?

English: *rail* for example, and _*right, regular, regent*_ of course !


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## Rallino

Copy-pasting my own post on another thread, with some embellishments here and there 

The word we always use for _rule_ is *Kural*. We use this everywhere:

Kurala uymak = (lit. to fit in the rule) to respect a rule
Kuralı çiğnemek = (lit. to chew a rule) to violate a rule
Kuralsız fiil = (lit. ruleless verb) irregular verb

But in some old expressions like the one: *İstisnalar kâideyi bozmaz*, we tend to use the old word 'kâide', rather than _kural_. Although not impossible, it sounds strange to me with _'Kural'_. We stick with the old vocab there 

I've also checked the Synonyms&Closely-related Words Dictionary (in Turkish):

*Kural* gives: *kâide, nizam, şart*

kâide = rule
nizam = order
şart = condition

Basically, it's related to "order"

While, *kâide* gives: *ayaklık, duraç, kalça, kural, taban


*ayaklık = a stand, a step
duraç = pedestal, base
kalça = hips, thighs
kural = rule
taban = sole, basement, floor
_
We can see that it's related to the "basement" of anything, the foundation of a structure, the strong base of a concept._

The etymological dictionary states that: *Kural*, without a doubt, derives from the verb _*kur-*_*mak* = to found, to set something up. It states that the function of the suffix _*-al *_is unknown.

When I looked up the word: *Kâide*, it says that both accented and accentless versions are existent -and frankly, I prefer the accented version. It derives from Arabic: ḳāˁidat قاعدة  [_#ḳˁd_ fa. f.] and means: _Base; basic; essential; principle_.
-->Also from Arabic: ḳuˁūd قعود  [msd.] means _oturma_ = sitting, settling.


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## Orlin

Bulgarian, Russian: *правило*, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (BCS): *правило*/*pravilo*.
This word is related with:
- _право/pravo_ - right, law;
- _правилен _(Bulgarian), _правильный _(Russian), _правилан/pravilan_ (BCS) - regular, right, correct.
And probably many others.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
The word for rule since ancient times is «κανών» (ka'nōn, _m._), «κανόνας» (ka'nonas, _m._) in modern Greek.
The earlier meaning of «κανών» was the _straight rod, bar, spirit level_. Later, metaphorically, it gained the meaning of _rule, standard, model_ (in Church language, both in Latin Catholicism & Eastern Orthodoxy,  «κανών» is the "canon law"-->Church rule).
In colloquial Greek, «κανονικός-κανονική-κανονικό» (kanoni'kos, _m._-kanoni'ci, _f._-kanoni'ko, _n._), lit. "according to the canon", describes something in accordance with fixed order or procedure or principle (i.e. the ordinary, regular, straight).
Etymologically, «κανών» probably derives from the Doric «κάννα» ('kanna, _f._), Ionic «κάννη» ('kannē, _f._)-->_"reed, cane"_.
In modern Greek, «κάννη» ('kani, _f._) describes solely the gun barrel.

[c] is a voiceless palatal plosive


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## ThomasK

As for Turkish: thanks, Rallino. So the base words in _*Kâide*_ and _*Kural*_ seems to be something like 'fundament', or 'foundation', on what everything rests, not straight.
Only *nizam* might then refer to straight, I guess (order, etc.). Do you any words derived from either ? Like for example: _to rule, a straight line_? How would you translate that (and do they refer to either of the above) ?

As for Bulgarian: thanks, Orlin. But then: 
- is *pravda* (truth) related with this word ? (I hope I am not mistaken)
- would you have a verb like _to rule_, based on that base ? 

Greek, Apmoy:_ Efcharisto !_ That where we got our _canons _from then (not our cannons ;-)). And from reeds. Great ! But then: you do not use any words based on *κανών* for _to rule_ or for _straight_, do you ? 

I remember reading elsewhere that another word for some kind of rule had to do with a stick, but I don't remember. Als ! 

Some others I could have mentioned (fr.wiktionary): 
- Latin: rectŏr, rectum, rex 
- I found some others in French/ Spanish/ Italian: régir, regir, reggere


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## Awwal12

> - is pravda (truth) related with this word ? (I hope I am not mistaken)


Yes, it is.


> - would you have a verb like to rule, based on that base ?


In Russian, it is "править" (pr*a*vit') - to rule (= to govern).


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## ThomasK

And thanks, Awwal !


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## Orlin

Awwal12 said:


> Yes, it is. Valid for Bulgarian and BCS too.
> 
> In Russian, it is "править" (pr*a*vit') - to rule (= to govern).


Bulgarian: управлявам (upravly*a*vam) - to rule (= to govern).


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## Awwal12

^As you most likely know, the verb "управлять" (upravly*a*t') exists in Russian as well; but it usually demands some objects and means "to govern smth.", "to operate smth.", "to run smth.", "to manage smth." (and hardly can be translated into English as "to rule", I believe). Maybe this info will be useful for some other members.


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## Orlin

^These meanings of "управлять" (upravly*a*t') are expressed by управлявам (upravly*a*vam) in Bulgarian too.
BCS _upravljati_ behaves the same as Bulgarian _управлявам_.


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## ThomasK

I suppose this meaning could be paraphrased as 'direct' (manipulate), Awwall: make it work well/ smoothly/ orderly. (But very interesting.) Is that correct ?


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## Awwal12

^Well, the verb "управлять" contains only the basic idea of governing/directing/managing smth.; directing something, you can make it work well or poorly, that depends on your skills after all. 

By the way, the verb "to direct" in its first meaning (direct smth. at/to/towards smth.) is also paranymous in Russian: "направлять" (napravly*a*t'). (Direction = направление /napravl*e*niye/, P.S.)


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*:
1) noun
_sääntö _(< _sää _'thread'* + _-ntO _"resultative" suffix)

2) verb
to rule = _hallita _(related to G. _halten_, Sw. _hålla_); _määrätä _(_määrä _'amount')
_säätää_, _säädellä _are actually related to controlling etc.!

c) adjectives 
_säällinen _= proper < _sää_
_säädyllinen _= decent (fatsoenlijk?) < _säätää_
_säädytön _= onfatsoenlijk

______________________________
* An old word, nowadays _säie_. My etymology dictionary gives this, but I don't really understand the connection. Is _säätää_ originally a weaving term? The meanings vary a lot in language relatives: from doing to hiring, betting to sufficing.


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## ThomasK

Thanks for the hint on direction in Russian, which in English/ Latin also contains the base word rec- (or something the like).



Awwal12 said:


> Well, the verb "управлять" contains only the basic idea of governing/directing/managing smth.; directing something, you can make it work well or poorly, that depends on your skills after all.


 
[_Do you know me that well ? ;-)_] I understand, but just admit that when we say we operate something we betray a lot of ambition, or have the best hopes... ;-) 

@Sakvaka: thanks a lot. Interesting split-up as for the verbs: controlling vs. governing. (I cannot go into it that now, but I'd like to explore that kind of variation) The adjective is also slightly different in meaning, when starting from 'right' in English: _juist_ (something like 'right', 'correct') in Dutch seems to refer to truth, ethics, precision, whereas _fatsoen_ ('decency') refers to social standards, acceptability. 

I had been checking on some other words contain the base _recht_- but they seemed quite different when translated into Finnish. (That would be something worthwhile exploring detail, as I once tried with _schuld_ words (debt, guilt, ex-cuse) in Dutch, but not now, not here... ;-) )


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> The adjective is also slightly different in meaning, when starting from 'right' in English: _juist_ (something like 'right', 'correct') in Dutch seems to refer to truth, ethics, precision, whereas _fatsoen_ ('decency') refers to social standards, acceptability.



Any reason why English people often want a _decent _cup of tea?  Would that work in Dutch? I can imagine a _säädyllinen kuppi teetä_.


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## ThomasK

Because they have their own, excuse, very own standards: just look for "a decent cup of tea" video through google !  ;-)


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## Encolpius

The Hungarian word is *szabály*. It is made up of the verb *szab *(it is a verb used by tailors, and the English verb is to tailor) and the suffix -*ály*.


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## ThomasK

Could/ would you be more specific, E? Is it something to measure with, to cut with, to draw straight lines with? BTW: do you have verbs and adjectives based on it, and what are their precise meanings? Köszönöm !


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## Encolpius

^*Szabály *means only rule. The verb *szab *is only a verb and I am not sure what it means I am not a tailor, but tailors do that I mean they cut, measure and I don't know what they do. And there is an adjective *szabályos *which means regular of course, then *szabályoz *which means regulate. I hope it helps.


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> As for Turkish: thanks, Rallino. So the base words in _*Kâide*_ and _*Kural*_ seems to be something like 'fundament', or 'foundation', on what everything rests, not straight.
> Only *nizam* might then refer to straight, I guess (order, etc.). Do you any words derived from either ? Like for example: _to rule, a straight line_? How would you translate that (and do they refer to either of the above) ?



To rule a company for example is said with the verb "*yönetmek*" sort of like "to lead".

A *straight* line is: *düzgün *çizgi

Düzgün exactly equates to straight. I don't see a relation with nizam. Nizam is again an old word, I think it's rather used for abstract things like:

_Yaptığın işte bir *nizam* olsun!_ = There should be *an order / a discipline* in everything you do.

For someone's room, you'd almost all time use "Düzenli" which means: tidy.

Oh now I've noticed that _Düzenli_ and _düzgün_ are from the same root: *düz *which means: straight, smooth.

Oh well.....Etymology isn't my best point


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## ThomasK

Don't worry, Rallino, I simply asked because there seemed to be some kind of logic relating the three, but that was Dutch wishful thinking again !

Don't worry, E. I am thinking it could be something like a knife then (_tailor_, cutter, although the French _taille_ could refer to measure). 

And Rallino: I always start from my own languages, and then explore parallels, but the links I find in Dutch, might be quite inexistent in other languages...


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> And Rallino: I always start from my own languages, and then explore parallels, but the links I find in Dutch, might be quite inexistent in other languages...



I re-checked Wiki, I couldn't find the statement now. But some time ago I had read an article about Dutch, it said that Dutch was (is) one of the richest languages in the world.

Finding some concepts in Dutch, that are inexistent in other languages, should feel normal =)


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> But then: you do not use any words based on *κανών* for _to rule_ or for _straight_, do you ?


Not any more. The only word that survived from ancient Greek deriving from «κανών» is the verb «κανονίζω» (kano'nizo), ancient Greek «κανονίζω» (kanŏ'nizō). Initially it meant "to judge by rule, measure, regulate", in modern Greek means "to arrange, settle".
In slang language, «κανονίζω» means "to ice it" (i.e. _to complete a given task in a superb and outstanding manner_, according to _Urbandictionary.com_)
A few decades back, as a primary school pupil, I remember my teacher describing to us the use of «κανόνας», i.e. "ruler", which was this:
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/136/rulery.jpg
Well nowdays the word «χάρακας» ('xarakas, _m._), has prevailed. 
From the ancient Greek «χάραξ» ('xaraks, _m._)-->_pointed stake. _But that's another story_ 
_


ThomasK said:


> _Efcharisto !_


Παρακαλώ!


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## ThomasK

@Rallino: where did you read that please ? I am not convinced !!!

@Apmoy: the _*κανόνας*_ is een _regel_ in Dutch, which is another parallel, though not quite astonishing. As the icing: we can say that we shall _*regelen*_ something, and then it can mean 'make sure it happens', but not always in a straight way... .-)


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> @Rallino: where did you read that please ? I am not convinced !!!



I remember reading it on wikipedia, hence I tried to find it again, but nope :/


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## phosphore

Orlin said:


> Bulgarian, Russian: *правило*, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (BCS): *правило*/*pravilo*.
> This word is related with:
> - _право/pravo_ - right, law;
> - _правилен _(Bulgarian), _правильный _(Russian), _правилан/pravilan_ (BCS) - regular, right, correct.
> And probably many others.


 
I must say that _prävo_ as an adverb meaning right (as in "nije mi pravo"="that doesn't seem fair to me"), _prâvo_ as an adverb meaning straight (as in "idi pravo"="go straight ahead") and _právo_ as a noun meaning law (as in "rimsko pravo"="Roman law") are three words with three different pronounciations. 

There are also two adjectives präv(i), a, o=straight (as in "prava linija"="straight line") and prâvi, a, o=the right one (as in "ona je ona prava"="she's the right one for me"), another adverb upravo=exactly and four nouns pravda=justice, pravac=direction, uprava=administration, isprava=document. There's also a whole series of verbs derived from the same stem: _praviti_ (and _napraviti_), _popraviti_ (and _popravljati_), _opraviti_ (and _opravljati_), _ispraviti_ (and _ispravljati_), _upraviti_ (and _upravljati_), _ispopravljati_, _naopravljati_, etc.


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## ThomasK

That is quite impressive a list. In Dutch we have quite some words connected with _recht_/ right, but this list seems more impressive...


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## phosphore

I forgot prâva=straight line and probably some other derivatives. The list is long mostly because of verbs, whose syntax and morphology is quite complex in Slavic languages. _Praviti_ and _napraviti_ both mean _to make_, but the first one is imperfective and the other is perfective, just like _pisati_ and _napisati_ which mean _to write_. Other verbs are true derivatives, _opraviti_ and _popraviti_ are quite synonymous and mean _to fix_, _ispraviti_ means _to make straight_, etc. But then you have _is-po-prav-lja-ti_ meaning _to finish fixing_ and _na-po-prav-lja-ti_ meaning roughly _to have been fixing for quite a long time_ which are perfective verbs derived from _po-prav-lja-ti_ which is imperfective and derived on its turn from _po-prav-i-ti_ which is perfective, meaning _to fix_ and derived from imperfective _prav-i-ti_.


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## ThomasK

apmoy70 said:


> In Greek:[...]



I had forgotten about this thread, Apmoy, and therefore asked Google Translate for a translation. I got ευθεία. Is that a correct translation of 'straight'?


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## apmoy70

^Yes it is. «Ευθεία» (ef'θia) is both the feminine adj. «ευθύς-ευθεία-ευθύ» (ef'θis _m._, ef'θia _f._, ef'θi _n._) and the adv. «ευθεία» (ef'θia) for _straight_. It derives from the Classical «εὐθεῖα» (eu'tʰeiă), from the Homeric «ἰθὺς», ultimately from PIE base *sēidh-, _straight, aim_


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## ThomasK

So I understand you have two words meaning the same... Any difference, or is the canon only the noun/ object? Thanks !


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## apmoy70

^I'm sorry if I haven't made it clear: «Κανών», or in vernacular «κανόνας» (both masculine nouns) is either the _rule_ (an authoritative, prescribed direction for conduct) or the _ruler_ (a straightedged strip, as of wood or metal, for drawing straight lines and measuring lengths). «Ευθεία» either describes the feminine adj. of _straight_ or the adverb _straight_, e.g:
-He is a «ευθύς» (masculine adj of straight, i.e straightforward) guy
-The teacher drew a «ευθεία» (feminine adj of straight) line on the board
-«Ευθύ» (neuter adj of straight) glance
-How shall I go there? Walk «ευθεία» (adv) on


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## ThomasK

This is amazing: the Dutch word 'oprecht' (dialect: rechtuit), 'sincere', also contains the word 'recht', 'straight'... 

(But 'a straight glance': looking someone into the face, very directly ?)


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## apmoy70

Yep, to look at someone/something intensely


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## ThomasK

Some kind of summary for myself and for you, five years later: rules often have to do with
- straightness, straight lines (Germanic, Romanic, Slavic)
- order (Turkish)
- foundations (id.)

Maybe Japanese and Chinese could bring in new perspectives on the origin of the (words) 'rule' (ruler)...


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## mataripis

Tagalog: to rule- maghari (govern), rules- panuntunan ( from tuntun means where it stands) , ruling- umiiral ( prevailing).


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## ThomasK

I suppose the _tuntun_ refers to foundation... I'd like to read more sentences with _maghari_, and see whether it is based on some more general root...


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## djara

Arabic
Rule (n.)= قاعدة _qa'ida_ (the same as the terrorist organization!), base, foundation.
Rule (v.) = حكم _hakama_; from a root referring to wisdom, good judgment. This also gave the words for government, governance, arbitration...
Law = قانون _qaanun_; from the Greek, see post #4 
Ruler (for drawing lines) = مسطرة _mistara_, from the root STR, drawing a straight line. In Morocco, مسطرة is also used to mean 'rule'.


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## ThomasK

Very interesting: so I recognize something like _basis, (sound/wise) judgment, stick_ as (semantic) roots. You cannot use the /mistara/ in a figurative sense, I suppose.
_(I believe /sharia/ refers originally to a 'way to the water'. Is that correct as well? No direct reference to straightness - except that any path leads to some "goal"... )_


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## djara

The only figurative use of mistara is the one I already mentioned about Moroccan usage.
Yes, originally, _sharia_ meant the way to the water (the only way to survival in the desert, I suppose; the only path a sensible person can think of taking...)


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## ThomasK

Sharia: interesting associations/ interpretation, somewhat different from mine, but of course one often has a narrower view, influenced by expectations, etc. Thanks a lot!


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