# Persian: چالش برانگیز یا چالش انگیز



## ayiran

Hi dear all
The compound چالش انگیز seems unnatural to me
این دستاورد چالش برانگیز/چالش انگیز است
And I think the correct one is چالش برانگیز
Am I right?
سپاس از شما


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## PersoLatin

I think verbs like آوردن, کردن & دادن are more appropriate, but out of those آور is more descriptive for this, so چالش آور.


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## ayiran

PersoLatin said:


> I think verbs like آوردن, کردن & دادن are more appropriate, but out of those آور is more descriptive for this, so چالش آور.


Good point!
Thank you
Anyway I'm still wondering about چالش انگیز and چالش برانگیز
Any idea?


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## farzan

ayiran said:


> The compound چالش انگیز seems unnatural to me



I would say 'unnatural' was too strong for چالش انگیز. After all, there is not such a big difference between انگیختن and برانگیختن. As far as I know, the prefix بر serves to add 'up', and, by extension, 'out' (as in 'to draw out by stimulation') to the verb. However, with this particular verb the meanings are the same as far as I can tell, so that the use of the prefix is decorative, more or less. I would concede that چالش انگیز might be less commonly used than چالش برانگیز. But personally I would understand and accept چالش انگیز as natural enough.


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## ayiran

farzan said:


> I would say 'unnatural' was too strong for چالش انگیز. After all, there is not such a big difference between انگیختن and برانگیختن. As far as I know, the prefix بر serves to add 'up', and, by extension, 'out' (as in 'to draw out by stimulation') to the verb. However, with this particular verb the meanings are the same as far as I can tell, so that the use of the prefix is decorative, more or less. I would concede that چالش انگیز might be less commonly used than چالش برانگیز. But personally I would understand and accept چالش انگیز as natural enough.


So well
Thank you


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## PersoLatin

PersoLatin said:


> I think verbs like آوردن, کردن & دادن are more appropriate, but out of those آور is more descriptive for this, so چالش آور.


I need some help here guys, I understand چالش means 'challenge' and by چالش انگیز/چالش برانگیز you must mean 'challenging', is that right, if not what does it mean please?


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## ayiran

PersoLatin said:


> I need some help here guys, I understand چالش means 'challenge' and by چالش انگیز/چالش برانگیز you must mean 'challenging', is that right, if not what does it mean please?


Yes the English word is 'challenging'


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## omid.parsa

ayiran said:


> Hi dear all
> The compound چالش انگیز seems unnatural to me
> این دستاورد چالش برانگیز/چالش انگیز است
> And I think the correct one is چالش برانگیز
> Am I right?
> سپاس از شما


 hi Ayiran
The most natural is "چالش بر انگیز".


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## PersoLatin

ayiran said:


> Yes the English word is 'challenging'


I had assumed it meant that, I asked to make sure just in case, I still can not understand the *انگیزه* behind choosing انگیختن with or چالش, of course it perfectly ok with هیجان or شگفت etc.

This word has probably established itself in modern Persian otherwise I would have expected the OP to ask 'Is انگیختن/ or رانگیختن the correct verb to use with چالش?'


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## ayiran

omid.parsa said:


> hi Ayiran
> The most natural is "چالش بر انگیز".


Thank you


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## ayiran

PersoLatin said:


> I had assumed it meant that, I asked to make sure just in case, I still can not understand the *انگیزه* behind choosing انگیختن with or چالش, of course it perfectly ok with هیجان or شگفت etc.
> 
> This word has probably established itself in modern Persian otherwise I would have expected the OP to ask 'Is انگیختن/ or رانگیختن the correct verb to use with چالش?'


Well 
Persolatin let me present some explanation in Persian. 
Hope it is useful
برانگیز یا برانگیختن فعلی پیشوندی ست (یک پیشوند مثل فرا، فرو، باز،بر و ...+فعل ساده). گاهی این پیشوندها معنی فعل ساده را عوض می کنند و گاهی معنی بدون تغییر می ماند.
مثلا فعل《خواند》معنایش با فعل 《 فراخواند》 فرق داره
اما فعل 《افراشت》 معنایش با فعل 《برافراشت》 فرقی ندارد.
اینجا انگیز و برانگیز بنظرم مثل افراشت و برافراشت هستند یعنی پیشوند(بر)تفاوت معنایی برای انگیز به همراه نیاورده‌


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## ayiran

PersoLatin said:


> I had assumed it meant that, I asked to make sure just in case, I still can not understand the *انگیزه* behind choosing انگیختن with or چالش, of course it perfectly ok with هیجان or شگفت etc.
> 
> This word has probably established itself in modern Persian otherwise I would have expected the OP to ask 'Is انگیختن/ or رانگیختن the correct verb to use with چالش?'


And by far and frequently we see چالش and its compound words
Maybe the word itself is not an old one
But in today's Farsi it is used everywhere


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## PersoLatin

ayiran said:


> And by far and frequently we see چالش and its compound words
> Maybe the *word *itself is not an old one
> But in today's Farsi it is used everywhere


The word I was referring to was the compound form چالش انگیز which has come into use even more recently, just to clarify, I am fine with چالش itself.

While we are here, if we were to create another compound for one of these سختی  تلاش دشواری or کوشش, which belong to the same category as چالش, e.g. something that 'brings hardship/requires effort-endeavour' would we use انگیختن? I would say no.


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## ayiran

PersoLatin said:


> The word I was referring to was the compound form چالش انگیز which has come into use even more recently, just to clarify, I am fine with چالش itself.
> 
> While we are here, if we were to create another compound for one of these سختی  تلاش دشواری or کوشش, which belong to the same category as چالش, e.g. something that 'brings hardship/requires effort-endeavour' would we use انگیختن? I would say no.


Thank you
Your perspective is _thought_-_provoking_


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## PersoLatin

ayiran said:


> Your perspective is *thought-provoking*


پندارانگیز happy with this one, if it ever gets used


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## ayiran

PersoLatin said:


> پندارانگیز happy with this one, if it ever gets used


Maybe after you


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## farzan

The point is, 'provoking a contest or creating an incentive for a particular endeavour' is the meaning one might think of if one were thinking about the meaning of the adjective چالش انگیز. In that sense, there is not a strong semantic association between چالش and کوشش or دشواری. 

We tend to say نیازمند کوشش, تلاش بَر, سختی آور, دشوار, an indication that whosoever encounters problems, experiences a hardship, makes an effort or works assiduously may not automatically be said to be responding to a situation.


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## PersoLatin

I still can't get that feel from انگیز where I get it from چالش زا.


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## farzan

Actually, چالش زا is fine. I am not sure if it has the same positive echo as چالش انگیز. I am thinking that maybe چالش زا is more, well, negative in its connotation. My problem is, I don't come across either adjective frequently enough to have an idea of how they fit into their right context each and what consequently they suggest to the trained mind.

But think:
تنش زا
مرگ زا
آتش زا
Compared with:
مهرانگیز
شورانگیز
روح انگیز
and even رشک انگیز.

I must confess, though, I don't quite get این دستاورد چالش برانگیز است. It sounds like jargon devoid of meaning but somehow gone viral.


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## PersoLatin

There’s also آفرین and آور.

Anyway challenging situations are not always positive, of course that depends on your outlook and a bit is like ‘glass half emty...’ analogy.

Of course انگیز sounds better than زا but semantically inaccurate, why not use آمیز it sounds nice but it’s as inaccurate, semantically.


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## farzan

PersoLatin said:


> Of course انگیز sounds better than زا but semantically inaccurate, why not use آمیز it sounds nice but it’s as inaccurate, semantically.



I fail to sense any inaccuracy, I'm afraid. Could you please elaborate on this, PersoLatin?


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## wordgumshoe

Hi every one. I think we have a چالش with the meaning of چالش.

First of all, "challenge" equivalence is not "چالش" but unfortunately contemporary translators took it as "چالش". "Challenge", as all of you know, means "call to the battle/ competition" whereas "چالش" is a Turkish word meaning "battle" NOT CALL TO ... .
Notice the following poem by Nizami taking the meaning of merely "battle":
بفرمود شه تا دلیران روم
نمایند *چالش* در آن مرزبوم


If you still insist on using it, I prefer " چالش طلب" or at least "چالش انگیز" because "انگیز" is a suffix like in:
حسرت انگیز، حیرت انگیز، رعب انگیز ، رغبت انگیز، رقت انگیز، روح انگیز,...
I have not  seen "برانگیز" in *reliable, ancient sources *and if one has found it in any reliable contexts please tell me.

For further reading you can see the entity of "چالش" in غلط ننویسیم نوشته ابوالحسن نجفی.


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## ayiran

wordgumshoe said:


> Hi every one. I think we have a چالش with the meaning of چالش.
> 
> First of all, "challenge" equivalence is not "چالش" but unfortunately contemporary translators took it as "چالش". "Challenge", as all of you know, means "call to the battle/ competition" whereas "چالش" is a Turkish word meaning "battle" NOT CALL TO ... .
> Notice the following poem by Nizami taking the meaning of merely "battle":
> بفرمود شه تا دلیران روم
> نمایند *چالش* در آن مرزبوم
> 
> 
> If you still insist on using it, I prefer " چالش طلب" or at least "چالش انگیز" because "انگیز" is a suffix like in:
> حسرت انگیز، حیرت انگیز، رعب انگیز ، رغبت انگیز، رقت انگیز، روح انگیز,...
> I have not  seen "برانگیز" in *reliable, ancient sources *and if one has found it in any reliable contexts please tell me.
> 
> For further reading you can see the entity of "چالش" in غلط ننویسیم نوشته ابوالحسن نجفی.


Thank you wordgumshoe for your input


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