# Spanish spoken outside Spain/Latin America



## everything

hey, i was wondering if anyone could tell me about places where spanish is spoken outside of spain.

i can think of *ceuta and melilla* (though they are actually parts of spain) in africa - is spanish spoken much there?

and also somewhere in *western sahara* i heard has a spanish history to it. i just have these names of places: *western sahara, mauritania* around that area. i remember seeing a video when i was in school of this refugee camp somewhere there with these african/arab people speaking spanish there and i couldnt tell if it was just for the language-teaching video or if they actually speak it there.

also another place: *ecuatorial guinea* - horrible place for human rights - i think some spanish is still spoken there (a lot?).

and then there's the* phillipines - *is any spanish spoken there still. as i understand it even when spain controlled it, it had a very colonialist approach to governing and only the elite in the country coud speak spanish and there were no initiatives to get the population speaking the language (as there were with english when the americans were in power). but am i right in saying that spanish culture has still influenced the phillipines loads with vocabulary and also loads of people having spanish names?

(just as a side point i read something about how trade woud go from spain to the phillipines to latin america and back. so because  thr phillipines were in between Spain and L.A, indigenous phillipino words would sometimes enter latin american spanish or indigenous american words would enter phillipino spanish but not Spain's spanish. and indigenous american words that entered Spain's vocabulary would have entered the language through the phillipines. is this true?)

how many (if any) people speak spanish there?

are there any other random places where spanish is spoken?


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## Edwin

There is a lot of information on the world wide distribution of Spanish here
 Spanish Language


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## EvanC

Hi Everything,

       Well, I can't answer about Ceuta and Melilla, and the Sahara areas, but I can help you a little about the Spanish question concerning the Philipines and Ecuatorial Guinea. Actually, tomorrow in my Spanish class we are going to have a guest speaker come and talk to us about Spanish in Ecuatorial Guinea. I know that they speak it there, but to what extent I'm not sure. I figure though that there has to be enough people that speak Spanish there to make us have a guest speaker come and talk to us about it.   Perhaps tomorrow I will let you know what he says. 
        As for the Philipines, one of my friends is Filipina. She grew up there. The language that they speak in the Philipines is Tagalog, but there are other languages that they speak there (other than Spanish). I know, however, that Spanish has made a mark on thier language, and things such as last names. My friend actually has a very Spanish sounding last name, but she has not a drop of  Spanish blood in her. I guess that you could compair it to the Mexicans (or many of the other Latin American peoples). There are many Mexicans with Spanish last names, but they are really Indian by blood. Well, let me know what you find out, it sure is an interesting topic. 

                                          Evan C


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## Fernando

In Ceuta and Melilla (and Canarias) the Spanish is spoken to the same degree that in the Peninsular Spain.

In Ceuta and Melilla maroccians inmigrants speak Arab or bereber.

In former Spanish Sahara it is widely spoken as culture language by anti-Marocco Saharians.

Equatorial Guinea: Spoken along with tribal languages (specially, fang). Government is introducing French for political motivations.

Philippines: As far as I know, the main language is English. Spanish is spoken by a minority. It has influenced very much the tagalo (a kind of native 'lingua franca', who eventually became official). As an example, numbers in tagalo are said the same way as in Spanish.

Spanish (ladino) is also spoken by some sephardic Jews minority in Israel. They publish some papers in this language. As an example, Simon Peres = Pérez, which is a very usual Spanish/Portuguese name.


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## Asmodeo

*Ceuta* is Spanish since 1580 and *Melilla* since 1497. Spanish, as official language, is spoken in both towns by the whole population (Ceuta, 76,152 inhab.; Melilla, 69,184 inhab.).


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## rockbovia

When you were talking about other African places, perhaps you were trying to remember "Sierra Leona"

" (just as a side point i read something about how trade woud go from spain to the phillipines to latin america and back. so because thr phillipines were in between Spain and L.A, indigenous phillipino words would sometimes enter latin american spanish or indigenous american words would enter phillipino spanish but not Spain's spanish. and indigenous american words that entered Spain's vocabulary would have entered the language through the phillipines. is this true?)"

Another point of view is that L.A. was between The Phillipines and Spain. A very common trade route was Phillipines - Acapulco (Mexico) - Spain. The Asian products spread through out America and others were "re-exported" to Spain. Even though Phillipines and Mexicans come from different backgrounds, we owe some other things to the Spaniards besides names: culture (Catholic religion), traditions (Holly week), etc. A lot of Phillipine immigrants during the colony planned on going to Europe, but they stayed in America instead. A spectacular fusion was produced in all fields (i.e. gastronomy). Anyhow, each country keeps its indian roots, if I talk to a Venezuelan and we don't agree to speak "international" Spanish, believe me we have problems in understanding. The same happens to me now that I'm living in Spain.

Mixure is very interesting and great!


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## Narda

Did you know that the USA is the third largest Spanish speaking country???


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## everything

wow thanks for all your replies, im really enjoying it. (thanks for the link edwin and to everyone's information and thoughts. and Narda, yes, i was aware that spanish is commonly spoken in the US - and even has co-official status in some places i believe)

one little request
could anyone please provide an example of some Ladino please? and a version of that text in spanish? id be so grateful.

thanks again


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## Fernando

everything said:
			
		

> wow thanks for all your replies, im really enjoying it. (thanks for the link edwin and to everyone's information and thoughts. and Narda, yes, i was aware that spanish is commonly spoken in the US - and even has co-official status in some places i believe)
> 
> one little request
> could anyone please provide an example of some Ladino please? and a version of that text in spanish? id be so grateful.
> 
> thanks again



There are several threads on ladino in this forum. Search for "Ladino"

Sorry, no time to be more helpful.


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## Narda

ladino is used in several ways:

Guatemala = mestizo o "blanco"

Ladino = astuto como las zorras

Ladino = judío emigrante y en la mayoría de los casos, convertido


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## Edwin

everything said:
			
		

> wow thanks for all your replies, im really enjoying it. (thanks for the link edwin and to everyone's information and thoughts. and Narda, yes, i was aware that spanish is commonly spoken in the US - and even has co-official status in some places i believe)
> 
> one little request
> could anyone please provide an example of some Ladino please? and a version of that text in spanish? id be so grateful.
> 
> thanks again



Here's some Ladino followed by an English translation. If you read Spanish you can see how close Ladino is to Spanish. (Source: http://www.sephardicstudies.org/lk-news.html   You will notice that the second article on this page is an English version of the third article.  I took a paragraph from each. 

Es kon una immensia alegria i agradesimiento ke saludo vuestra honoravle prezensia en la inaugurasion del Sentro para los Estudios de Ladino ke yeva el nombre de mi mujer i el mio ; el primer sentro ke dedikara estudios akademikos i lavoros sientifikos sovre la lingua, la istoria, i la kultura sefaradi, establisido en muestro pais. Este Sentro se kreo gracias al ekselente lavoro akademiko de los profesores i de munchos estudiantes en Ladino en esta grande Institusion en la kuala mos topamos. Bar Ilan es konsiderada al nivel mondial, komo una de las primas universidades en el estudio del Djudaismo. Agradesko a la direksion jeneral de la Universidad de averme dado la oportunidad de establisir endjuntos aki este Sentro uniko.

It is with great happiness and gratitude that I salute your honored presence here at the inauguration of the Center for Ladino Studies, named for my wife and me. This will be the first center in our country dedicated to academic studies and scientific work on the language, the history, and the culture of the Sepharadim. This Center was created as a result of the outstanding academic work by the professors and many students of Ladino in this great institution which is hosting us tonight. Bar Ilan is considered worldwide among the premier universities of Judaic studies. I thank the administrators of the University for giving me the opportunity and their collaboration to establish this Center, the first of its kind in the world.


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## Narda

Thank you Edwin.  I don't have my dictionary here, so I was doubting my definitions after I posted my reply.


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## Outsider

Edwin said:
			
		

> Es kon una immensia alegria i agradesimiento ke saludo vuestra honoravle prezensia en la inaugurasion del Sentro para los Estudios de Ladino ke yeva el nombre de mi mujer i el mio ; el primer sentro ke dedikara estudios akademikos i lavoros sientifikos sovre la lingua, la istoria, i la kultura sefaradi, establisido en muestro pais. Este Sentro se kreo gracias al ekselente lavoro akademiko de los profesores i de munchos estudiantes en Ladino en esta grande Institusion en la kuala mos topamos. Bar Ilan es konsiderada al nivel mondial, komo una de las primas universidades en el estudio del Djudaismo. Agradesko a la direksion jeneral de la Universidad de averme dado la oportunidad de establisir endjuntos aki este Sentro uniko.


Very close to Spanish, although there are some archaic characteristics in the pronunciation.


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## Edwin

Here are some of the different meanings of Ladino from Wikipedia:



> Ladino, one name given to the Judæo-Spanish Jewish language spoken by Sephardic Jews.
> *	Ladino (Ladin), the Italian name of a minority Rhaetian language spoken in northern Italy, called Ladin in English and the Ladin language itself.
> *	Ladino, in some parts of Central America (especially Guatemala) is a collective noun used to refers to persons whose primary language is Spanish and practiced culture is Hispanic, and includes both mestizos and assimilated Amerindians.
> *	Black Ladinos, were Spanish-speaking black African slaves born in Latin America or sent to the Americas after having spent some time in Castille or Portugal.
> *	Ladino, in Spanish, may mean someone who is fluent in two or more languages, or a sly or sneaky person.
> *	Ladino, a hardy type of large white clover, often grown as a forage crop.



The above and lots more about the Ladino language can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladino_language


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## Outsider

I've just noticed that Everything had asked for a Spanish version. I'll try to make a crude one:



			
				Edwin said:
			
		

> Es kon una immensia alegria i agradesimiento ke saludo vuestra honoravle prezensia en la inaugurasion del Sentro para los Estudios de Ladino ke yeva el nombre de mi mujer i el mio ; el primer sentro ke dedikara estudios akademikos i lavoros sientifikos sovre la lingua, la istoria, i la kultura sefaradi, establisido en muestro pais. Este Sentro se kreo gracias al ekselente lavoro akademiko de los profesores i de munchos estudiantes en Ladino en esta grande Institusion en la kuala mos topamos. Bar Ilan es konsiderada al nivel mondial, komo una de las primas universidades en el estudio del Djudaismo. Agradesko a la direksion jeneral de la Universidad de averme dado la oportunidad de establisir endjuntos aki este Sentro uniko.


_Es con una inmensa alegría y agradecimiento que saludo vuestra honorable presencia en la inauguración del Centro para los Estudios de Ladino que lleva el nombre de mi mujer y el mío; el primer centro que dedicará estudios académicos y labores científicos sobre la lengua, la historia, y la cultura sefardí, establecido en nuestro pais. Este Centro se creó gracias al excelente labor académico de los profesores y de muchos estudiantes en ladino en esta grande Institución en la cual nos encontramos. Bar Ilan es considerada al nível mundial como una de las primeras universidades en el estudio del Judaismo. Agradezco a la dirección general de la Universidad de me haber dado la oportunidad de establecer en junto aquí este Centro único._

P.S. Here's an earlier thread in this forum: To all Spanish-speakers: Can you understand Ladino? .


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## Phryne

Edwin said:
			
		

> Es kon una immensia alegria i agradesimiento ke saludo vuestra honoravle prezensia en la inaugurasion del Sentro para los Estudios de Ladino ke yeva el nombre de mi mujer i el mio ; el primer sentro ke dedikara estudios akademikos i lavoros sientifikos sovre la lingua, la istoria, i la kultura sefaradi, establisido en muestro pais. Este Sentro se kreo gracias al ekselente lavoro akademiko de los profesores i de munchos estudiantes en Ladino en esta grande Institusion en la kuala mos topamos. Bar Ilan es konsiderada al nivel mondial, komo una de las primas universidades en el estudio del Djudaismo. Agradesko a la direksion jeneral de la Universidad de averme dado la oportunidad de establisir endjuntos aki este Sentro uniko.



WOW! That sounds like Spanish under the Ortographic Reform!!   It's extremely easy to understand, despite being annoying to read.


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## Asmodeo

rockbovia said:
			
		

> When you were talking about other African places, perhaps you were trying to remember "Sierra Leona"


Sierra Leona was *Portuguese* from 1462 to 1808. Hence its name. Then it was a british colony until the Independence in 1961. Its official language is *English*.


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## Outsider

Asmodeo said:
			
		

> Sierra Leona was *Portuguese* from 1462 to 1808. Hence its name.


The Portuguese name is _Serra Leoa_. _Sierra Leona_ looks Spanish. The name of the country in English is Sierra Leon*e*, though.


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## Lancel0t

everything said:
			
		

> and then there's the* phillipines - *is any spanish spoken there still. as i understand it even when spain controlled it, it had a very colonialist approach to governing and only the elite in the country coud speak spanish and there were no initiatives to get the population speaking the language (as there were with english when the americans were in power). but am i right in saying that spanish culture has still influenced the phillipines loads with vocabulary and also loads of people having spanish names?


 
Well, as of the moment, there are very few places in which they still speak spain's spanish and that is located on the southern part of the Philippines. Spanish on the other provinces of the Philippines evolved into a dialect which is "chavacano" this dialect is considered broken spanish because most of their words are in spanish with combination of other local dialects. This dialect don't have a conjugation pattern and they lack the articles (la and el) and when it comes to sentence construction, they don't have genders when using words. This dialect is spoken in two province, Cavite, which is located in Luzon and in Zamboanga which is located in Mindanao.

It is true that during the spanish time only the elite or the rich person has the privilege to study and learn that language. At present those elite families are still using that language within their families. 

When it comes to spanish names and culture, we are highly influenced with the Spanish culture. Now when it comes to names, the spanish names which are widely used before seem to be old fashioned to our culture now due to the fact that we are now being influenced by other countries.


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## believenme6

Still about Spanish spoken outside Spain and Latin America:

You guys might have known this already but I'm taking my chance...The following information from Wikipedia provides an accurate (at least on my point of view) picture of the state of the Spanish language in the Philippines at present time....


*The state of Spanish in the Philippines today*

Spanish ceased to be the official language of the country in 1973, due to lack of Government guidance and promotion to the public. It is only used for cultural heritage purposes and on an optional basis. Spanish was a required subject in college before 1987. It ceased to be a required subject in 1987 during the Cory Aquino Administration in Manila. However, the language is still spoken today and maintained by mestizo families, and thousands of people around the country, particulary in the province of Cebu, Zamboanga and Bacolod.

During the 1960s and 1970s, Filipinos grew up with Spanish being their first and primary language, even before they learned to speak Tagalog or English. Speakers are typically, but not always, the 'elite'. President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo is a member of the Philippine Academy of the Spanish Language. Many of the older people speak it well in Zamboanga where the general population speak the creole, Chavacano.

The propagation and/or imposition of Spanish as an official language is still in heavy dispute. On one side, much of the history and culture is embedded in the language. There are an estimated 13 million manuscripts from the 16th century to 1898 which include government documents, economics, trade disputes, legal matters, patriotic material, religious material, registrations etc. Up to the 60s, birth certificates were in both English and Spanish. There is still a very strong need to translate a great number of historical documents.

On the other side, Spanish is accused by some as representing colonization and has less relevance than English for practical usage or Filipino in terms of nationalism. Certain advocates maintain that Spanish was used by the first Filipino patriots. For example, Spanish was used to write the country's first constitution, Constitucíon Política de Malolos, Noli Me Tangere, the original national anthem, nationalistic propaganda material,etc and thus should be considered a national language. Philippine nationalism was first propagated in the Spanish language.

Manila is home to the main East Asian branch of the Instituto Cervantes, the Spanish government's official overseas institute for the promotion of Spanish language and Latin America culture. The Spanish language enjoys popularity as a language of choice for learning a foreign language among new generations of young Filipinos.


There are approximately 4,000 Spanish words in Tagalog, and around 6,000 Spanish words in Visayan and other dialects. The Spanish counting system, calendar, time, etc are still in use with slight modifications. Archaic Spanish words have been preserved in Tagalog and the other vernaculars such as _pera_ (_perra_ - coins), _sabon_ [_jabón_ (the j used to be pronounced as in French and Portuguese:'jsh' or roughly the j sound in beige or garage) - soap], _relos_ [_reloj_ (with the j sound) - watch], _kwarta_ (_cuarta_), etc. The Spaniards and the language were referred to as _Kastila_ after Castila, the name of the Spanish language.

*Influence of Spanish on the languages of the Philippines*
Chavacano/Chabacano also called Zamboangueño, is a Spanish creole spoken in the Philippines. Chabacano is concentrated mostly in the South, in the provinces of Zamboanga, with some speakers found in Cavite. As a large number of workers to build military and other Spanish establishments in Zamboannga and other areas in the South, were imported from different linguistic regions, Chavacano developed as a lingua franca.  According to a 1990 census, there are 292,630 speakers. The vocabulary comes from the Spanish language, while the grammar is mostly based on indigenous structures. It is used in primary education, television and radio. 


 Whew, I know that was a lot to read but I know its worth spending some time....


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## everything

thanks for that *believenme6, *i personally am still fascinated by this.


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## Honeylhanz

lancel0t is right  . in our place in Zamboanga we speak broken spanish as well as in Cavite. most of the word are similar in meaning however we dont conjugate the word. we have an article "el" and also we dont consider the gender.


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## rob.returns

Exactly, we (chavacanos) are present in this forum...we have like 10 or a dozen chavacanos here in this forum. Seems to me that we are just interested in our mother language, "Spanish". Personally, I'm amazed of the number of Span words that we have in our language..tiene, quiere decir, cagar, arrancar...there's a lot...


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## riquezada

I am a Spanish speaking american and I lived in the PI in the mid 1980's. I met only a very few Filipino people who spoke Spanish (or a version of it). Back here in the US I met an older Filipino that spoke perfect Spanish, that was learned in school where he grew up. I can't remember where, though.

My wife, a filipina from Cubao has learned alot of Spanish and English in the last 20 years or so, but she just cannot learn to conjugate the verb system. maybe it a carryover from one of her main dialects>.???

I heard that within a few years the Spanish language in the PI will mostly be died out. The same with this dialect of Cavite and Samboanga?


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## araceliearambula

I'm a Filipino born into a Spanish speaking family. Many families in 
the Philippines speak Spanish, but you would never know it 
because speaking Spanish in the Philippines today in 2006 is 
frowned upon due to the view of it as an elitist language, due to 
the fact that it was historically primarily spoken by white Filipinos 
of Spanish descent and the large mestizo filipino population.
i went to dinner with my mum's friends, and they talked about how 
they have to hide the fact that they speak Spanish because people 
view them as snobs if they see Spanish-speaking Filipinos speak 
amongst themselves in Spanish. This is due to the deep historical 
beliefs of Filipinos that are difficult to wash away.

According to the Institute of Cervantes, the largest Spanish 
language institute in the world, 2.9 million Filipinos speak Spanish 
today in 2006. 

www cervantes to/ whylearnspanish html

DON'T BELIEVE THE CRAP ON WIKI, because you 
have to remember, a lot of the writers are so full of crap, and 
there's also a whole bunch of biased incorrect data there, as well 
as RACISM on deep levels by so many idiotic Wikipedia users.

I can share with you my story as a Filipino who comes from a 
Spanish speaking family. During family parties, my grandfather, 
uncles and aunts and my family would speak to each other 
primarily in Spanish, but when they felt the need to include 
Filipinos who don't speak Spanish into the conversation, they 
switch to Tagalog. Spanish is their first language, and they feel 
more comfortable in it, but they switch to Tagalog to speak to 
people usually who are of the lower classes who didn't grow up 
speaking Spanish, usually the maids or other Filipinos who don't 
speak Spanish. 

And when the need for English came, whether in business or 
wherever, then they'd switch to that and that is the old world of 
the Philippines and how people were, and are.

It's true, Spanish is a language that was historically spoken by Filipinos of the upper class, who were usually whiter and more Caucasian looking than everybody else because of Spanish descent, but it's not necessarily an elitist language. 
Many Filipinos simply speak Spanish because they feel more 
comfortable speaking in it than Tagalog, because it was their 
FIRST LANGUAGE, but these Filipinos are misunderstood by other 
Filipinos today, because they are assumed to be putting on heirs, 
which they're not. The Spanish culture is a part of the Filipino 
culture, it's ONE AND THE SAME, but the viewpoint that most 
Filipinos hold is that they view the Spanish culture as a seperate 
culture from the Filipino culture not even realizing that it's their 
OWN culture.

It's the concept of MESTIZAJE in all forms, yet most Filipinos don't 
understand this concept too well, basically because Spanish has 
been removed from the schools, and as an official language.
There are Filipinos who are of full Spanish origin, that have brown 
wavy hair and light green eyes, and there are Filipinos who are of 
Malay descent, and the rest of the population is mixed or mestizo in varying degrees 
realistically, but the problem is that the word "mestizo" as used by 
Filipinos is used in the same manner that the word "guero" is used 
by Mexicans. Even though Filipinos may be mestizo, they won't 
recognize it in themselves because they view mestizos as physically 
appearing to be very Caucasian, and that word is usually associated with those who are rich. In fact, the word "mestizo" is synonymous with the word "rich" among Filipinos, and they are usually used in the same sentence, which is why a poor or middle class Filipino, no matter how prominent his Spanish features, pointed nose, light skin, or brown wavy hair is, will not call himself a mestizo, because of the word's definition as used by the Filipinos. I myself have encountered many Spanish-looking Filipinos who have no knowledge whatsoever of their Spanish descent, because also, mirroring what happened in Latin America, many Spaniards being the way that they were, had many indigenous wives and prospects at once, and the Spanish blood spread through the upper class as well as through out of wedlock "conquistas" just like in all Latin countries, you know what I mean of course.

The word mestizo has a different 
meaning in the Philippines than the rest of the Spanish speaking 
world, it's really used in the way the word "guero" is used, because 
of the fact that most Filipinos use the word "Filipino" to mean "a 
brown-skinned Malay descent person", totally ignoring the 
original meaning of the word FILIPINO, which is like any other Latin 
American country as in:

A FILIPINO can be of pure Spanish descent, pure Malay descent, 
or any mixture in between, but all are Filipinos, just like a 
Colombian can be of pure Spanish descent, pure Indian descent, 
or other descent, but all are Colombian.

The word FILIPINO has morphed in the Philippines to ONLY refer 
to the Filipinos of Malay descent, and it has now EXCLUDED the 
Filipinos of Spanish descent, who are now called MESTIZO. I don't know why that is, but that's 
the way it is, and I don't agree with it being a Filipino of Spanish 
descent, and being excluded in my own country and among my 
own people.

Any Filipino with Spanish blood, who usually appears more 
Caucasian looking than other Filipinos, is immediately put on a 
pedestal, and most movie stars in the Philippines are of white 
Spanish descent, but in the streets and in everyday life, these 
Filipinos are viewed as foreigners in their own country just because 
of their European features, light colored hair and eyes, and skin. 
Even though they're just as Filipino as the next Filipino, and they 
even speak Tagalog like everybody else, they will be viewed as 
foreigners just for being a Filipino of Spanish descent.
Filipinos of Spanish descent today speak Spanish, but they also 
speak Tagalog because of course, how can you live in the 
Philippines without knowing how to speak the language that all 
Filipinos speak.

Even though my Spanish is not perfect, because I grew up in the US and it really is my 3rd language unlike my grandparents and aunts and uncles who 
really had it as their birth language, I understand it fluently and I personally feel more 
comfortable speaking in Spanish than i do in Tagalog, and I live in 
the US, and I watch Telemundo and Univision everyday because it just makes me feel more at home and makes me feel more connected to many of my family members who 
passed away, who were Filipinos that spoke Spanish as their first 
language. I feel connected to the Tagalog speaking Filipino world, 
but at the same time, I also feel like an outsider because I'm a 
Filipino that speaks Spanish, and I feel like an outsider among 
other Filipinos because of it, and I just wish that I had more 
Filipinos to conversate with in Spanish besides just my uncles and 
aunts. 

By the way, we're from Manila and we speak Castellano, not the 
creole Spanish that they speak in Cavite and Zamboanga. I think 
Filipinos should stop calling it "chavacano", they should call it 
"caviteño" or "zamboangueño" as the people from the region call 
it, because that word sounds so inappropiate, but the fact is, 
since most Filipinos don't speak Spanish, they don't know what the 
word chavacano means, which for me, I would NEVER use that 
word. Most Filipinos who speak Spanish in Manila look down on 
those who speak the Creole Spanish in the provinces, because of 
course, first of all, the name that they use to refer to the creole 
Spanish is "chavacano" which just sounds horrible of course, and 
because of course, the Filipinos who spoke Creole Spanish were 
not of the upper class, they were mostly natives who were from 
small fishing villages, while Spanish speaking Filipinos from Manila 
tended to be from middle to rich upperclass families of direct 
Spanish descent, whether criollo, castizo, or mestizo. There was 
also another term, "ilustrado" which referred not only to mestizo 
or castizo filipinos, but also to educated pure-blooded indios who 
rose to class due to education. In the Philippines, unlike the rest of 
Latin America where a full-blooded indio would become "mestizo" 
by becoming educated and learning to speak Spanish, in our 
country's past, the word mestizo was used only for those who were 
actually mestizos, indios who rose in class were called "ilustrados", 
in the definition of "illuminated, illustrated"

Of course, as I said, the word mestizo has changed over the 
course of the years, and even today, Filipinos use the word 
mestizo sometimes to even refer to Filipinos who are of PURE 
Spanish descent. Even though they're not technically "mestizo", 
Filipinos will call them that because the word has morphed to refer 
to any Filipino who has any Caucasian features whatsoever, very 
much in the same way that Mexicans use the word "guero." It 
sounds really ironic to call a Filipino of pure Spanish descent a 
"mestizo", but that's the way it is in the Philippines, and it has to 
do with the fact that most Filipinos view themselves as "natives" 
even though most of them are actually mestizo. The word 
"mestizo" in the Philippines is usually reserved for those of the 
upper class, usually of European descent, and even though a 
Filipino may be of mixed Spanish blood, he won't call himself a 
mestizo because of the difference in the way that word is used in 
the Philippines. I can't stand looking at the way the Americans 
have catalogued the populations of the Philippines, as well as the 
rest of Latin America, because we all know that "mestizo" 
"mulato" "blanco" terms are all relative and not exact, and it's 
more of a social class thing rather than a race thing, and I see 
that the estimates of Filipino populations are ALL WRONG, and 
are askewed to an Anglo-American view of race rather than 
through the Latin American/Spanish/Filipino definition of a more 
class-based system.


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## araceliearambula

CONTINUED:

There are different pronounciations among Filipinos in Spanish as 
well. The Spanish spoken among Spanish-speaking Filipinos tends 
to mirror the Spanish they speak in Peru and Meso-America, it's 
conservative and doesn't have the new pronounciations that 
Spanish from Spain has evolved into. We pronounce "corazon" as 
"cora-s-on" not "cora-thon", but some Filipinos do pronounce it 
with a "th". There are also lots of words used among 
Spanish-speaking Filipinos that are words from the 16th century 
Spanish that are no longer used in current day vernacular, such 
as "sabón" for soap. today in most countries the word used is now "jabón", although some places still use "sabón", but one thing that surprised me while I was watching one of my favorite shows "Por Que Diablos?" on Telemundo from Colombia was when they used the word "perita" to refer to money, because in the Philippines, we also use the word "pera" to refer to money, which is a word from 16th century Spanish meaning "coins". 

Like many places in Meso-America, Filipinos also tend to pronounce the "l" in the "ll" as dictated by 
proper 16th century Spanish, and I noticed this among my family 
members when I visit the Philippines, they'll say "cal-ye" to 
pronounce "calle". Because i grew up in the US, I've learned to say 
"ca-ye" for "calle" since i didn't want to sound out of place, or like 
I'm speaking a Shakespearean form of Spanish, hehe. 

Many people, including the Filipinos themselves, are mistaken in 
viewing the Spanish culture as a foreign culture among Filipinos, 
because while that may be true for most, it's not true for all, 
because growing up from a Spanish-speaking Filipino family, like 
many other Filipino families, it's fused in and blended into one 
culture, the indigenous culture of pre-Hispanic Filipinas and the 
Spanish culture, it's one in the same, and it's become a mestizo in 
itself and gave birth to one single Filipino culture.
I notice that many of the values that Filipinos have, and even just 
the way Filipinos talk and socialize amongst themselves, and the 
customs, I feel like the Philippines is Latin America as far as the 
way people act, the only difference is the language. Filipinos will 
say "mande?" to ask someone to repeat something unheard, and 
when on the bus, they will say "para" to stop the bus, I hate when 
Filipinos say that the Filipino culture has FOREIGN INFLUENCES 
from the Spanish, because if they really took a good look at their 
OWN Filipino culture, the Spanish culture IS NOT FOREIGN AT 
ALL, it is ACTUALLY PART OF THE SAME, SINGLE FILIPINO 
CULTURE, the Filipino culture that has molded different elements 
from it's historical past into one single mestizaje: the Filipino 
culture.

Ciao Ciao!
Angel


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## hsannolav

Thanks, araceliearambula, for your insight. Nowadays, most Filipinos I meet are more than eager to openly embrace the American influences on Filipino culture, but aren't as keen to give the "Spanish" part of our heritage its due. 

However, I don't think it's right to say that Spanish culture and Filipino culture are "one and the same," and I do think that it's correct to say that Spanish culture is "foreign" relative to Filipino culture. Filipino culture, although no doubt heavily influenced by Spanish culture in terms of religion, language, and traditions, is still based on the culture of the native peoples that existed on the islands centuries before Magellan first landed. For instance, there are a lot of important aspects to Filipino tradition that you wouldn't be able to find in Spanish culture as it exists in Spain (which would not be case if the two cultures were "ONE AND THE SAME"). 

Furthermore, Filipino culture is, in a way, comprised of several subcultures depending on the region. I can't claim to know more than you do about what it's like to grow up in a Spanish-speaking Filipino family, as that is not my own background (which is Tagalog, from Manila), so I believe you when you cite the similarities between _your_ Filipino culture and Spanish culture. However, from a Tagalog standpoint, I certainly don't say "mande" when I want something repeated, nor would I call out "para" to stop the bus. Similarly, people with Ilocano or Visayan roots -- also Filipino cultures -- would certainly have different perspectives as well. 

Thus, despite the obvious colonial influences, it should be noted that Filipino and Spanish cultures are separate cultures, much like Mexican culture and Spanish culture, or British and American cultures, remain distinct from one another in spite of the similarities they share.


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## araceliearambula

I just meant that there are elements of both the indigenous cultures of the Philippines and South America with the Spanish culture that overlap and mold into one another, but each culture is unique, which of course, is true.  But that PART that has molded and overlapped together, of course that's ONE AND THE SAME, because the two have molded into one, into a mestizo in itself that, despite the various UNIQUE elements of each of the dialect and region's cultures, that MESTIZO ONE AND THE SAME CULTURE has become the basis for one national Filipino culture, and it is that mestizo culture, that ONE AND THE SAME culture, that came Rizal and Bonifacio and all of them great men and from which the Traje de Mestiza "Terno" and Noli Me Tangere, all that, it came from that ONE AND THE SAME mestizo culture of the Philippines, that's what I meant when I said that.

I was actually referring to the jeepney when I said that they say "para" to stop the "bus" , but I didn't think that others would know what I'm talking about if I say "jeepney".

this is such an interesting discussion, isn't it?

Ciao Ciao!


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## hsannolav

araceliearambula said:
			
		

> this is such an interesting discussion, isn't it?


 
It is


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## panjabigator

WOW!  Thank you for your imput Araceliearambula!


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## Fili*Rican

Very Interesting discussion. My Ethnic background is Filipino/Puerto Rican, so I like to consider myself blessed to have the best of both worlds. Anyway, although I have the "dominant spanish" puerto rican side, a lot of people are very ignorrant to the fact that yes, Filipinos have a lot of mixture to them also. I say this because a great majoirty of hispanics like to use the term "chino" when reffering to a filipino. I could go on for a whole day on this topic, but to sum it all up, people should know what theyre talking about before making any judgements. Ok, the phillipines sits in Asia, but theyre not your typical chinese person! Most people fail to realize, or refuse to believe that Spain had a very huge impact on the culture. Just like every damn part of Latin American, the Carribean, etc. Dark, white, brown, straight hair, curly, Afro-spanish, etc...MIXTURE UP THE ASS!! Well sorry if this seemed irrelevant, but I just wanted to vent because Im very proud of my BLOODLINE, and nothing pisses me off more when I run into estupidos y estupidas!!! Ciao!


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## araceliearambula

panja, thank you for your thank you! 

y que dios les bendigan a todos, amigos!


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## araceliearambula

hi! sorry i'm saying so much, i just wanted to quickly add a little helpful information about what i said above about the word mestizo as it relates to the spanish language spoken outside of latin america in the philippines, you can see all over the web (and the world) how most filipinos would define mestizo as "half-filipino, half-spanish/european" which of course is incorrect, as a mestizo from the philippines should be "half-MALAY, and half-Spanish or European", which is as i stated the word filipino has now excluded the Filipinos of Spanish descent, and they are not even viewed as Filipinos by the Filipinos, just because of their Spanish descent. The word Filipino has substituted the word Malay, and only refers to the Malay population whenever Filipinos, and as a result, the rest of the world describes the racial mixtures in the Philippines.

I also wanted to add that the reason why mestizo population estimates are not correct, in addition to what i stated above, is because the words "castizo" "criollo" and the 20+ other racial mixture terms used during colonial times in spanish colonies are virtually nonexistent to most filipinos, basically because the education system in the philippines doesn't teach it, but they should, so in Filipinas, the only word that survived among Filipinos is the word "mestizo", so that word has become a generic term for all Filipinos with any Spanish blood (or European) at all.

In the Philippines, a Filipino with a Malay mother and a Spanish father is a MESTIZO/a.

Then that mestiza marries a Spaniard, and gives birth to children, the children, or the offspring are still called MESTIZO by the Filipinos, which is of course INCORRECT, because technically, they are CASTIZOS, but most Filipinos I've talked to have NO IDEA whatsoever what that word means, so a mestiza who has children with a Spaniard, gives birth to "mestizos" in the Philippines, and those castizos/as (called "mestizos") also married other Spaniards in the Philippines, and gave birth to of course CRIOLLOS or ESPOMOLOS but it doesn't matter, because Filipinos will still call them "MESTIZOS" because that word has become a catch all phrase for those of any European descent, regardless of the mixture, which of course leads to a lot of misunderstandings by different people, including world scholars and population analysts themselves, especially if they analyze the Philippines from the Anglo-Saxon viewpoint, instead of through the Spanish class-based viewpoint and understanding, and often, the Anglo-Saxon viewpoint overrides the Spanish viewpoint. "97% Malay, 2% Mestizo, 1% Spanish/Chinese/Other" I've often seen of the population estimates of the Philippines, not even realizing that that 2% mestizo is NOT EVEN JUST "MESTIZO" AT ALL, but mestizos, castizos, criollos, and even full blooded Filipinos of Spanish descent related again to how Filipinos use the word "mestizo". And within that 97% Malay, they overlook the fact that even if a Filipino of the lower, poorer to middle classes has Spanish blood, he won't call himself a mestizo because of the way that that word is used in the Philippines, so within that "97% Malay" population is a substantial mixed race Spanish-Malay population that is not accounted for in the statistics because again of the way Filipinos use the word "mestizo" (so important to understand that), but of course, it really shouldn't be viewed through Anglo-Saxon American viewpoints and racial categorizations because the Philippines is essentially a society that is based on Spanish norms and social structures because of it's Spanish colonial history, like Latin America, so it should be seen in that manner and analyzed through the Spanish cultural context that built it instead of an Anglo-Saxon viewpoint of race, which it NEVER is in books and textbooks all around the world, including those in the Philippines.

This is a problem also as far as how Anglo-Saxons categorize Latin America based on Anglo-Saxon viewpoints of race, not even realizing that within the "mestizo" population that they measure, what's not included is the fact that sometimes the only thing that seperates a "mestizo" from an "indian" is CULTURE, both can be full-blooded indian, but because an indian has been incorporated into the larger Spanish-speaking society, he became a "mestizo" regardless of his full-Indian blood, and his full-blooded Indian brother who kept his indigenous culture is called an "indian". Also excluded is that within the "white" populations of Latin America and Brazil exists descendants of castizos and mestizos and mulatos who have moved up in status and became "white", but of course, we know our culture and how money whitens, and how the Latin culture differs as far as their categorization, and the culture is based on the same social structure as Latin America, and should be seen within that context and viewpoint, because the society of the Philippines was built on Spanish colonial norms and social structures. But Anglo-Saxons view it through their lens where, you're either white, black, asian, or hispanic, which we all know that in Latin America, that viewpoint cannot be applied because race is more of a class-based structure than your actual racial percentages, and we don't emphasize "half-ness" in Latin culture, but we do emphasize "mestizaje" and "cafe con leche", so because the Philippines is in Asia, it's viewed incorrectly through the Anglo-Saxon lens ignoring the Spanish structural societal norms that built the society you see today. Many Latinos too view it as only an Asian country without knowing that we share the same roots and beginnings as your societies and cultures over there in Latin America. Only educated Latinos would know that.

And I see this all the time, the celebrities that Filipinos will call "MESTIZOS" are not ACTUALLY mestizos, they're actually CASTIZOS or CRIOLLOS, like Aga Muhlach (ex-novio de Dayanara Torres), Gloria Romero, legendary Antonio "Junior" Morales de Los Brincos - viudo de Rocio Durcal, Bianca Araneta, Pilita Corrales, Isabel Preysler - Enrique Iglesias' mum, Sarita Perez de Tagle, Mig Ayesa, Mico Palanca, which is why the word MESTIZO is associated with those who are Caucasian looking, because most Filipinos have no idea that the Filipinos that they call MESTIZOS are not even mestizos at all, but that's what they think.

But at the same time, of course racial terms changed in different countries in Latin America, so it's natural based on a country's history. I've talked to some of my Dominican friends who said that they were "Indio", which I know is another term for "mulato" in DR and the Carribean, which I know of course is a result of the shame instilled in the Dominicans (as well as Latin Americans and Filipinos too, see how similiar we are to you guys, hehe) of their non-European heritages and racial descent, so a way to rise up socially to not be seen as a negro, is to call yourself an indio, very much in the same way that full-blooded indios integrated into the main culture of Mexico are called "mestizo" when the fact is, as most books I've read have stated, most are of full Indian descent, but are only called mestizo because of course, of the racial implications and higher status that being a mestizo has over being an indio in the colonial culture of our countries. 

In the Philippines, just like Latin America, if you're born with white skin and/or European features, it's encouraged that you marry someone who is at least as white-skinned as you are so that your children will be born with white skin. If you marry a Filipino of Spanish descent, even better, and if you marry a European or American EVEN better, because just like in Latin America, everybody wants their kids to look as white as possible, and it's best to "improve" your family with each new generation. Just like in Latin America, it's not encouraged to marry un negro, it's a step backwards because then your kids would be born ugly. It may not be apparent to foreigners, but the social class system and beauty standards in the Philippines are EXACTLY the same as Latin America (that's why Filipinos love Thalia, Barbara Mori, Gabriela Spanic, Mario Cimarro, Fernando Colunga, Michel Brown, Jorge Salinas, and the telenovelas from Televisa and Telemundo; they are shown over there also), even more reason why the Spanish culture is a part of the Filipino culture, because even if the majority don't speak Spanish anymore, Filipinos live in that social class system every day of their lives, and their beliefs are shaped around it in the same way that the other Latin American countries are shaped around it, as a result of our shared Spanish colonial history.

I remember when Dayanara Torres was in Filipinas as an actress, Filipinos would refer to her as the "tisay", which is from the word "mestiza" as "mes-tisay", and when Thalia was there for Marimar and Rosalinda, Filipinos would always refer to her "mestiza looks" (their exact words) in magazine articles written about her, and of course in Latin American terms, it sounds strange to call Dayanara Torres and Thalia "mestizas" because even though they are both of obviously of mixed heritage, especially Thalia, they are too white to be considered "mestiza" in Latin American terms, but in the Philippines, it's like that because of the way that word mestizo/a is used by Filipinos, to refer to anyone who looks Caucasian, like guero/a.

That's why I believe more should be taught about these subjects in the Philippine educational system, so that the Filipinos themselves can learn about their own culture, and give more accurate information to the rest of the world, because most people around the world really do misunderstand the different cultural and racial populations and aspects of the Philippines, and it's for these reasons that I stated on this page, but of course, what with all the poverty and problems that my country has, it will remain a hope.

God Bless Everybody
Angel


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## Maria Yrezabal

Please click on the following 3 pages for photos of Spanish mestizos in the
Philippines: 

www eurasiannation.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=celebrities&action=display&thread=1115634009&page=1

www eurasiannation.proboards48.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=celebrities&thread=1115634009&page=24

www eurasiannation.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=celebrities&action=display&thread=1115634009&page=19



There are many Spanish mestizos in the Philippines!


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## BehindtheDoor

everything said:


> are there any other random places where spanish is spoken?



Most people in Northern Morocco (which was a Spanish colony between 1912 and 1956) can understand or speak Spanish as well. In fact, they can also watch the Spanish TV and apparetly they prefer it over the Moroccan one because it is less censored.


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## Maria Yrezabal

In parts of Malaysia and small pockets in Africa, Spanish is also spoken.


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## Karlaina

Another note... Although the main language in the "ABC islands" is Pappiamento, I believe that they also speak Spanish there, as well as Dutch and French. My understanding is that most Aruban students complete their collegiate education in Holland, but I have known of some who have studied in Central America.  Does anyone know alot about the extent to which Spanish is spoken on these islands?  (Also, did I spell _Pappiamento_ correctly?)

What an interesting discussion!


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## Maria Yrezabal

Sorry if I sound so ignorant. But what are the ABC islands?


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## SofiaB

Maria Yrezabal said:


> Sorry if I sound so ignorant. But what are the ABC islands?


Aruba, Bonaire,Curaçao  Netherlands Antilles



Karlaina said:


> Another note... Although the main language in the "ABC islands" is Pappiamento, I believe that they also speak Spanish there, as well as Dutch and French. My understanding is that most Aruban students complete their collegiate education in Holland, but I have known of some who have studied in Central America. Does anyone know alot about the extent to which Spanish is spoken on these islands? (Also, did I spell _Pappiamento_ correctly?)
> 
> What an interesting discussion!


Aruba=papiamento, Bonaire= papiamen,Curaçao=papiamentu
Comes from Portuguese (more tha half) and some Spanish and Dutch (about 1/4) also West African languages, Amerindian and some French. Dutch/Nederlands is the language of education. I have heard that most people speak Spanish to varying amounts. I have only been to Curaçao and everyone I met spoke Spanish fluently some with native sounding accents and others with foreign sounding ones,I do not know what percentage of the population speaks Spanish also most people speak Dutch and English.They get Tv and Radio from Venezuela which is very close and boats from there dock at Curaçao and sell their goods there and speak to the shoppers in Spanish.Most of the transplanted Dutch born in The Netherlands do not seem to speak Spanish or Papiamentu.
link to papiamentu newspaper


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## michita

everything said:


> hey, i was wondering if anyone could tell me about places where spanish is spoken outside of spain.
> 
> i can think of *ceuta and melilla* (though they are actually parts of spain) in africa - is spanish spoken much there?
> 
> and also somewhere in *western sahara* i heard has a spanish history to it. i just have these names of places: *western sahara, mauritania* around that area. i remember seeing a video when i was in school of this refugee camp somewhere there with these african/arab people speaking spanish there and i couldnt tell if it was just for the language-teaching video or if they actually speak it there.
> 
> also another place: *ecuatorial guinea* - horrible place for human rights - i think some spanish is still spoken there (a lot?).
> 
> Ceuta and Melilla as Canarian Island belong to Spain before that America was discovered. Before democracy Ceuta was one part of province of Cádiz and Melilla to Málaga. Now they are automic cities.
> 
> Ecuatorial Guinea separated from Spain in 1968. They chosen it by referendum.
> 
> Sahara was occuped for Marocco in the called "marcha verde". It happened in 1975, for the vacuum power created when Franco was diying.
> 
> Phillipines Island were discovered by Spain in XVI century. They have this name because it happened when Felipe II was the king of Spain. Spain lost them in Cuba war, because have to transfer them and Puerto Rico to USA. I suppose that Phillipines has chooses to speak English and tagalo. It's not the same case of Puerto Rico where Spanish has always been the first lenguage.
> and then there's the* phillipines - *is any spanish spoken there still. as i understand it even when spain controlled it, it had a very colonialist approach to governing and only the elite in the country coud speak spanish and there were no initiatives to get the population speaking the language (as there were with english when the americans were in power). but am i right in saying that spanish culture has still influenced the phillipines loads with vocabulary and also loads of people having spanish names?
> 
> (just as a side point i read something about how trade woud go from spain to the phillipines to latin america and back. so because thr phillipines were in between Spain and L.A, indigenous phillipino words would sometimes enter latin american spanish or indigenous american words would enter phillipino spanish but not Spain's spanish. and indigenous american words that entered Spain's vocabulary would have entered the language through the phillipines. is this true?)
> 
> how many (if any) people speak spanish there?
> 
> are there any other random places where spanish is spoken?


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## VivaReggaeton88

There are many people from Equatorial Guinea near me and I have to say, they speak *VERY GOOD *Spanish. They pronounce all of the letters and are very easy to understand. Also, they use vosotros. They're very nice people.


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## avok

VivaReggaeton88 said:


> There are many people from Equatorial Guinea near me and I have to say, they speak *VERY GOOD *Spanish. They pronounce all of the letters and are very easy to understand. Also, they use vosotros. They're very nice people and hopefully their government will change.


 
Hi,

I listened to some Equatorial Guineans on TV and I think, they have "native-proficiency". 

I am also interested in Spanish spoken outside Spain/Latin America i.e. in Equatorial Guinea and in Western Sahara but it is almost impossible to find more about this even on WRF. 

I had once opened a thread about the variety of Spanish in Equatorial Guinea. And also this thread ( Spanish in Africa and Asia ) might be useful for you.

Ciao-to


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## Nanon

SofiaB said:


> Aruba, Bonaire,Curaçao Netherlands Antilles
> 
> Aruba=papiamento, Bonaire= papiamen,Curaçao=papiamentu
> (...) I have only been to Curaçao and everyone I met spoke Spanish fluently some with native sounding accents and others with foreign sounding ones (...)


 
I can say the same for Aruba. Everybody I met spoke (with an accent but somehow Venezuelan-sounding to variable extent) Spanish, except for transplanted people from the Netherlands.


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## shoam

Donde trabajo hay varios filipinos y hemos hablado del tema varias veces. Parece que saben y usan muchas palabras en español pero cada vez menos. Las personas mayores saben más.
Lo que si tienen es varios apellidos y muchos nombres de comida en español.
Si se les escucha hablar, por ejemplo en la televisión, meten una cantidad impresionante de palabras en inglés entre medio de talgalog.


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## VivaReggaeton88

avok said:


> Hi,
> 
> I listened to some Equatorial Guineans on TV and I think, they have "native-proficiency".
> 
> I am also interested in Spanish spoken outside Spain/Latin America i.e. in Equatorial Guinea and in Western Sahara but it is almost impossible to find more about this even on WRF.
> 
> I had once opened a thread about the variety of Spanish in Equatorial Guinea. And also this thread ( Spanish in Africa and Asia ) might be useful for you.
> 
> Ciao-to



They have native-proficiency because they are natives. Spanish is spoken by 99% of the population in Equatorial Guinea. Look on youtube for some videos.

Saludos =]


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