# Urdu: treasure trove of knowledge



## Chhaatr

In Hindi I would say "gyaan kaa bhaNDaar" for treasure trove of knowledge. 

How do I convey this in Urdu? 

Many thanks!


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## Alfaaz

دفینۂِ علم / دفینۃ العلم


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## Chhaatr

Alfaaz SaaHib I'm transliterating below what you wrote to check if I got it right.

dafiinah-e-3ilm

The second one is beyond me.  Could you help please?


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## Alfaaz

Your transliteration (_dafeenah-e-3ilm_) is correct! 

_dafeena-tul-3ilm_ would be the Arabic form izaafat. For example, for _sea/ocean of knowledge_ you could say بحرِ علم (_baHr-e-3ilm_) or بحر العلم (_baHr-ul-3ilm_), in addition to _3ilm kaa samandar_.


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## Qureshpor

Being a simpleton, I would just say "3ilm kaa xazaanah".


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## Chhaatr

_shukriyah!_


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## Sheikh_14

Alfaaz said:


> Your transliteration (_dafeenah-e-3ilm_) is correct!
> 
> _dafeena-tul-3ilm_ would be the Arabic form izaafat. For example, for _sea/ocean of knowledge_ you could say بحرِ علم (_baHr-e-3ilm_) or بحر العلم (_baHr-ul-3ilm_), in addition to _3ilm kaa samandar_.



Quick question Alfaaz sahib. When BaHr is a derived word from Arabic meaning the Sea as in Shati al baHr meaning the beach or sea shore, than why is it pronounced as Beher in Urdu? Secondly, why has it come to mean Ocean rather than Sea in Urdu whereas the former is Moheet in Arabic? No idea if Moheet exists in Urdu or not.


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## Alfaaz

Sheikh_14 said:
			
		

> Quick question Alfaaz sahib.
> When BaHr is a derived word from Arabic meaning the Sea as in Shati al baHr meaning the beach or sea shore, than why is it pronounced as Beher in Urdu?
> Secondly, why has it come to mean Ocean rather than Sea in Urdu whereas the former is Moheet in Arabic?No idea if Moheet exists in Urdu or not.​


Quick Answers:

This seems to be a pattern (not only limited to words of Arabic origin, as illustrated in the examples below) that has been previously discussed in other threads in the forum (examples: here and here). 

_maHbuub vs. meHbuub; dahr vs. dehr; aham vs. aihem; mahak vs. mehek; shahnaaz vs. shehnaaz; shahbaaz vs. shehbaaz; aHsan vs. eHsan; etc._
Note: As most forum members here usually say, speakers who are careful about their language and pronunciation will pronounce these correctly (although both forms seem to be accepted)! As you might already know, -_ since__ you have Urdu and Punjabi listed as two of your native languages _- you can hear both pronunciations in media. 

_baHr_ meaning _ocean_ and/or_ sea _in Urdu was discussed in this thread.

_muHeet_ is used in Urdu, as can be seen here in Urdu Lughat and here in Platts!


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## Sheikh_14

Alfaaz said:


> Quick Answers:
> 
> This seems to be a pattern (not only limited to words of Arabic origin, as illustrated in the examples below) that has been previously discussed in other threads in the forum (examples: here and here).
> 
> _maHbuub vs. meHbuub; dahr vs. dehr; aham vs. aihem; mahak vs. mehek; shahnaaz vs. shehnaaz; shahbaaz vs. shehbaaz; aHsan vs. eHsan; etc._
> Note: As most forum members here usually say, speakers who are careful about their language and pronunciation will pronounce these correctly (although both forms seem to be accepted)! As you might already know, -_ since__ you have Urdu and Punjabi listed as two of your native languages _- you can hear both pronunciations in media.
> 
> _baHr_ meaning _ocean_ and/or_ sea _in Urdu was discussed in this thread.
> 
> _muHeet_ is used in Urdu, as can be seen here in Urdu Lughat and here in Platts!




Firstly, thank you for the lengthy response. Thus taking into account what you just said would it be Bahrii jahaz for a ship rather than Beherii Jahaz as it is commonly mispronounced. Even through the former is linguistically sound I have always heard people say the latter (well in Urdu), be it live or on news bulletins.


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## Cilquiestsuens

If you allow me, I'll get back to the original query.

I know the expression is a bit old, but I find it beautiful:  *گنجينه علم  *(*ganjiinah-e 3ilm*).

Of course, we can also say (depending on what kind of knowledge you are talking of):

گنجینہ علم و عرفان 
گنجینہ معرفت و عرفان 
گنجینہ علم و ادب
گنجینہ علم و فن 

گنجینہ علوم و فنون

etc...


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## marrish

^Very good suggestions janaab Cilquiestsuens SaaHib. They, and the author of the book Gope jii has been reading and asking questions about its language made me recall that Baba Farid whose tomb is in Pakpattan had a son (also buried there) named شہاب الدین گنج علم _shihaabu-ddiin *ganj-e-3ilm*._


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## Faylasoof

Apart from the above suggestions _3ilm kaa zaxiirah_ also. In fact, this is the most common way to say 'treasure trove of knowledge'. As for  بحر العلم _baHr-ul-3ilm_, it is also a specific title esp. when used in this form: _baHr-ul-3uluum_. BTW, this also happens to be a family name. Just Google 'bahr ul uloom'.


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## Alfaaz

Sheikh_14 said:
			
		

> Firstly, thank you for the lengthy response. Thus taking into account what you just said would it be Bahrii jahaz for a ship rather than Beherii Jahaz as it is commonly mispronounced. Even through the former is linguistically sound I have always heard people say the latter (well in Urdu), be it live or on news bulletins.


 You're welcome Sheikh_14. Just so you don't think that your question was being avoided, I thought I should mention that it would probably be better to either create a new thread or post in one of the existing ones about this topic...so that this thread doesn't go off-topic.


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## Cilquiestsuens

marrish said:


> They, and the author of the book Gope jii has been reading and asking questions about its language made me recall that Baba Farid whose tomb is in Pakpattan had a son (also buried there) named شہاب الدین گنج علم _shihaabu-ddiin *ganj-e-3ilm*._


Indeed, marrish Sb.
I did not mention the word *ganj*, because in my perception this word has been mostly reserved for the kind of revered people you made mention of;


Baba Fareed (RA) is called : *ganj-shakar* (the treasure of sugar) . 
Ali Hajvery ‘Data Sahab’ (RA): *ganj-bakhsh* (the bestower of treasures) 
*ganjiinah* therefore sounds a bit more mundane to me. This might be just my perception.

By the way, allow me another suggestion:
* 
كنزالعلوم
kanz-ul 3uloom*.

From the Arabic *kanz*, ‘treasure’, having the same meaning as the Persian _*ganj*_. The similarity of *ganj* and *kanz* make it very tempting to start a new thread on the etymology forum…


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## eskandar

Cilquiestsuens said:


> The similarity of *ganj* and *kanz* make it very tempting to start a new thread on the etymology forum…


I'll save you the trouble - Arabic borrowed its 'kanz' from an Iranian language. It's an old (pre-Islamic) loanword, and the question (as yet unanswered) is whether Arabic got it from Parthian, Middle Persian, or early New Persian.


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## Cilquiestsuens

eskandar said:


> I'll save you the trouble - Arabic borrowed its 'kanz' from an Iranian language. It's an old (pre-Islamic) loanword, and the question (as yet unanswered) is whether Arabic got it from Parthian, Middle Persian, or early New Persian.



Thank you, eskandar!

This is something I was suspecting. It seems quite surprising though that the original language couldn't determined.


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