# Are Spanish seamen bisexual?



## diegodbs

In a recent thread I asked: 



> Why is "ship" always/often?? referred to as "she"?


 
Another foreros's answer:



> It isn´t always. It´s often referred to as "she" by the crew, however. I read a feminist interpretation of this years ago as a ship, something meant to be "dominated".


 
My question again:



> Thank you for the explanation.
> However, that feminist interpretation would be a bit far-fetched, at least in Spanish, because we can say:
> 
> - el barco
> - la embarcación
> - la nave
> - el navío
> - el buque
> 
> Some of them are feminine and others are masculine, but all of them equally "dominated" by their male crews.


 
and the other forero's answer:




> True-- but in English we don´t conceive of gender except where the "thing" referred to has either male or female genitalia, and in some special circumstances, like the one that occurred to you. We have to memorize the gender of nouns for languages that have gender of inanimate and other types of objects ...
> 
> As to the feminist take on it: feminists writing in English might not particularly know how other languages handle such scenarios, even though they particulary read notable French feminists such as Helene Cixous or Simone de Beauvoir ... (they like as not, read them in translation). And I am not versed in what sorts of theories Spanish feminists may have propounded.


 
If it is true that one sees the world through one's own language, it has never been truer than in this example about "ship". Unless, of course, Spanish seamen are or were bisexual (as stated by the feminists who wrote the sentence) trying to "dominate" both male and female ships - el navío (masc.), la nave (fem.), el barco (masc.), la embarcación (fem.) 

Interesting question about sexuality as posed by native English speaking feminists unacquainted with the difference between gender and sex.

Any comments, suggestions, denials....?


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## Lapinbleu

> Interesting question about sexuality as posed by native English speaking feminists unacquainted with the difference between gender and sex.



Ah, those feminists ! Obviously never been to sea, any of them. A ship is not dominated by her crew, but handled by them. At sea the ship is all you have, a protector, a mother...


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## Outsider

In my modest opinion, this is an example of how trying to understand the world through the limited filter of one's culture -- in this case, one's language -- can be misleading.

In English, gender typically reflects sex. When an exception shows up, people look for a deeper meaning in it. But in Spanish, where grammatical gender is everywhere, the idea of a deeper meaning for the gender of boats becomes laughable.


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## Chaska Ñawi

As a feminist _and _a sailor ....  

I found that each boat had its own personality, and its own gender to go with it.  My last one was very definitely masculine, fairly placid and laid-back and prone to smoking the odd joint when sailing downwind.  Another yacht was very feminine, rather flirtatious and coquettish.

Personally, I think that we put a little of ourselves into whatever we create, be it pottery, a house, or a boat, which helps to define the subsequent personality.

I've a fairly large collection of books on sailing (one of my passions is windjammers), and I do notice that boats with male names tend to be referred to as "he".  In addition, when the crew couldn't make out the name of a ship in the distance or in the dark, they were just as likely to use the pronoun "he" as "she".

I hope that this muddies the waters (pun intended) nicely for you, Diego!


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## diegodbs

I'd sail my little he-boat or she-boat through??? troubled waters rather than muddy waters, but I'm no expert so I'll follow your advice


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## natasha2000

> It isn´t always. It´s often referred to as "she" by the crew, however. I read a feminist interpretation of this years ago as a ship, something meant to be "dominated".


 
I've heard that, too, but in a little bit less "feminist" and more "romantic" version.
I was told that English speaking sailors used to give female names to their ships and to reffer to the ships as "she" because they LOVED their ships almost as much as their sweethearts.
I hear that most of men who tend to give names to their cars or other wehicles, also give female names... From the same reason...
Nothing about this ugly "dominating" thing....

As far as Spanish or any other nation sailors who speak language that has gramatical gender, I agree with Outsider... There is nothing to discuss since in those language sthe gender has already been determined, and sailors just followed the rules of their own language...


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## maxiogee

Although English is generally genderless, I thought that all ships were *she*. If they are not she, at least I can say with confidence that I have never heard one referred to as *he*.


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## Outsider

What about "it"? How often do English speakers refer to ships or boats as "it"?


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## natasha2000

Outsider said:
			
		

> What about "it"? How often do English speakers refer to ships or boats as "it"?


 
As far as I know, when speaking about ships in general, or there is no big attachment of a speaker for the ship in question, or the name of the ship is unknown....
Correct me if I'm wrong...


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## Brioche

Outsider said:
			
		

> What about "it"? How often do English speakers refer to ships or boats as "it"?


 
Younger people are less likely to refer to inanimate objects as 'she'.

This is thanks to the feminists.

In the past, countries were feminine. "Britain and _*her*_ empire"


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## diegodbs

Brioche,
would you say thanks to the feminists or "because of the feminists?

That's the point I'd like to know, why do feminists can't distinguish between gender and sex regarding ships or any other thing?


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## cuchuflete

diegodbs said:
			
		

> That's the point I'd like to know, why do feminists can't distinguish between gender and sex regarding ships or any other thing?



That's probably a proposition to discuss in a new thread.

Until a couple of decades ago, in English, sex referred to living creatures, and gender was reserved for descriptions of words.  However, with the advent of feminism, the term gender has crept into standard AE usage as a synonym for sex.

Preference for the term 'gender' rather than 'sex' for humans is very likely a result of the Puritanism that infests the use of AE.  

I wonder what the barco and embarcaciones think of all this.


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## diegodbs

They are probably living lives of their own, unaware of all these trifles.


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## cuchuflete

Do trifles have gender?    Or would they rather have sex?


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## diegodbs

If you think they are trivialities they probably have gender. If they are sponge cakes it could be quite another thing.


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## Outsider

I think that the word "gender" was repurposed because people wanted to differentiate the biology of sexuality from the psychology of sexuality.

In Spanish, there is also the word _barca_, for a small boat. Is it still used today? What about _nave_?


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## diegodbs

Outsider said:
			
		

> I think that the word "gender" was repurposed because people wanted to differentiate the biology of sexuality from the psychology of sexuality.
> 
> In Spanish, there is also the word _barca_, for a small boat. Is it still used today? What about _nave_?


 
Both words are used. Barca is a small boat used for small scale fishing, just for one or two people. "Nave" is more poetic, nobody says "tengo una nave", but one could say "las naves zarparon al amanecer en medio de la tormenta" if you want to win "el premio Cervantes"


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## vince

diegodbs said:
			
		

> Brioche,
> would you say thanks to the feminists or "because of the feminists?
> 
> That's the point I'd like to know, why do feminists can't distinguish between gender and sex regarding ships or any other thing?



Don't put words in feminists' mouths. Maybe some rebellious naive man-hating one might think that, but I don't think the majority of feminists have any problem with grammatical gender in other languages. Because often gender is completely arbitrary, based on the form of the word, no one thinks of "una máquina" (a machine) as being a woman or "un martillo" (hammer) as being man.


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## natasha2000

vince said:
			
		

> Don't put words in feminists' mouths. Maybe some rebellious naive man-hating one might think that, but I don't think the majority of feminists have any problem with grammatical gender in other languages. Because often gender is completely arbitrary, based on the form of the word, no one thinks of "una máquina" (a machine) as being a woman or "un martillo" (hammer) as being man.


 
Correct. As a woman, I must say I like the idea of ships as females, and I like the romantic explanation I heard (See Post Nº6). I have never heard earlier for this feminist thing, and personally, I think that feminists exagerate in many things, although I wouldn't let any man to "dominate" me, for sure ...
But I guess that one can find evil in almost everything, if one really decides...


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## maxiogee

Brioche said:
			
		

> Younger people are less likely to refer to inanimate objects as 'she'.
> This is thanks to the feminists.
> In the past, countries were feminine. "Britain and _*her*_ empire"



This is off-topic and has nothing to do with the gender of trifles or the sex-life of sailing vessels, but this comment did inspire me to do some naval gazing, and as I was clearing the fluff out (does mental floss end up as navel fluff, or is the process a reverse one?) I began to muse on the seamantics of Brioche's post.

Britain did indeed have her empire...... Yet Germany was "the fatherland"?

I can see how a tradition of seeing the soil as feminine in a "male Sun god/female Earth goddess" tradition could have led to a country itself being seen as an extension of this Mothering/fertility notion, but surely the very word patriotic derives from a fatherland concept - _patria_?


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## cuchuflete

Hi Tony-  Gigglefight displays this--



> *motherland* 			  				3,130,000 results
> *fatherland*
> 2,310,000 results


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## Outsider

And don't forget about "Mother Russia".


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## la reine victoria

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Although English is generally genderless, I thought that all ships were *she*. If they are not she, at least I can say with confidence that I have never heard one referred to as *he*.


 



I've always considered ships to be "she".  H M The Queen (or any other dignitary), when launching a ship, says, "I name this ship The Lord Louis Mountbatten (a deliberate masculine name for illustration).  -  May God bless *her* and all who sail in *her*.  (Not *him *or* it*.)

I've no idea about Spanish seamen's sexual preferences.


LRV


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## Brioche

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hi Tony- Gigglefight displays this--
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> motherland 3,130,000 results
> fatherland
> 2,310,000 results
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *


 
And there is also _*sireland*_.

Part of the Irish national anthem:
_Sworn to be free, _
_No more our ancient* sireland *_
_Shall shelter the despot or the slave_

and _*mother country*_  - a country in relation to its colonies.
In the past, Australians referred to Britain as the Mother Country.


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## ireney

Still off topic
(after all , even though I know ships are referred as a 'she' in general in English [no matter how an individual one may be referred to] they are persistently neuter in modern Greek and female in ancient Greek so I really don't know where that leaves us)

motherland does indeed comes from the Gaia kind of thinking of earth in general (mother-Earth who provides us with food etc)
fatherland  is more 'boundaries' based so to speak (my English just run and hid somewhere, sorry about that). Land passes from father to son so the country is also passed from fathers to sons


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## Fernando

Mother Land is very common in Galicia (&Portugal?) : terra mae.
Also in Inca culture (Pachamama) and in classical culture (Ceres, Tetis).

Returning to the sea, Spanish is very strange since "mar" (sea) is:
- Masculine for everybody (el mar)
- except for those involved with the sea. For them is femenine (la mar).


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## maxiogee

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hi Tony-  Gigglefight displays this--
> 
> *motherland* 			  				3,130,000 results
> *fatherland* 2,310,000 results


Some fatherlands don't recognise their own progeny!

The 'other' fight gives 4,780,000 for motherland to 3,630,000 for fatherland. But, it gives 597,000,000 for mother versus 389,000,000 for father. So it appears that fewer fathers own more land than mothers. So much for equal rites!


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## la reine victoria

At school we used to sing a patriotic song which began with "What heroes thou hast bred, O England my country!"

I can't quote all of it because of WR rules, but it ended with -

Each with undaunted heart,
Playing his gallant part,
Making thee what thou art,
Mother of mine.

Not forgetting dear old Britannia, given a female name by the Romans.




LRV


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## Brioche

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> Not forgetting dear old Britannia, given a female name by the Romans.
> 
> LRV


 
My Latin is a bit rusty, but I think most (if not all) countries are feminine in Latin.
Albion, Caledonia, Etruria, Graecia, Hibernia, Italia, Judaea, Macedonia, &c


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## Outsider

Except for the Imperium Romanorum, which is neuter, if I'm not mistaken. Of course, Roma and Romania _are_ feminine.

P.S. Just remembered another possible exception: Aegyptus (Egypt).


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## maxiogee

The old lie;
Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori! (not "matria"!)


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## Outsider

Yes, _patria_ (fatherland) is feminine! 

We actually had a poet in Portugal who liked to say _mátria_ instead of _pátria_. But it was a personal quirk; she was a very militant feminist.


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## Fernando

Interesting. In Spanish:

village: La aldea (f) 
town: El pueblo (m)
city: La ciudad (f)
region: La región (f)
homeland: La patria (f)
empire: El Imperio (m) The same than Latin
Earth: La Tierra (f)
universe: El Universo (m)

I am unaware what a feminist would say, but I guess is a play of dominance in a global level.


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## se16teddy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hi Tony- Gigglefight displays this--


 
*motherland* 3,130,000 results 
*fatherland* 2,310,000 results

I think England / Britain is usually the Motherland or Mother Country, whereas Germany is usually the Fatherland. Not sure about other countries!


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## emma42

People, pleeeese try to stop lumping all "feminists" together.  It's naive and lazy and quite offensive to those of us who have feminist ideals, as well as being, inter alia, anti-homophobia and anti-racist (as I'm sure all you lovely people are).

And, by the way, every Spanish seaman who has ever met me has been heterosexual.  Can't imagine why....


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## cuchuflete

I agree with Emma's exhortation.  Lumping feminists doesn't sound like much fun, and the image of lumped feminists, some female, some male, is an image only Hieronymus Bosch could love.  

Why are most Hurricanes named after women, at least in the US?


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## maxiogee

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Why are most Hurricanes named after women, at least in the US?



How apt that you should ask this on a language thread, I can get all tense and ask "Are they?".
I know that they "were", or even "used to be" but I thought that these terrifying forces now are rotated through the alphabet and switch gender successively. 

Wasn't there a Hurricane Floyd some time back?


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## victoria luz

Homeland is family in Italy. 
We came up with one of our compromises: *Madrepatria*. Isn't it genial?


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## Krümelmonster

Hi, I read this topic today the first time, but if you still want to know it: In Germany we really say "fatherland", saying "motherland" would be the same thing as the "matria" mentioned by Outsider.
On the other hand we talk of our language as "motherlanguage" (Muttersprache), and I never heard anybody say "fatherlanguage" (Vatersprache) (even if you grow up speaking the language of your father and not of your mother this is your motherlanguage)

And talking about the gender of ships: In the German thread we had this discussion regarding cars and motorbikes: Cars are masculine (der Porsche, der Opel, der Mazda, der Honda...) and motorbikes feminine (die Ducati, die Yamaha, die Harley, die Honda...).
The explanation is the same: Bikers love their bikes like her sweethearts, giving them names like Bella (for italian bikes) or Susi (Suzukis). 

I think if you go to sea you have to love your ship as well, for me it's quite normal to think of a ship as feminine even if the gender in German is neutral (das Schiff, das Boot) or even masculine (der Kahn).


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## se16teddy

victoria luz said:
			
		

> Homeland is family in Italy.
> We came up with one of our compromises: *Madrepatria*. Isn't it genial?


 
It may be a stroke of genius.  'genial' means 'cheerful' or 'friendly'.


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## maxiogee

… and calling your homeland your family is *very* friendly.


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## se16teddy

victoria luz said:
			
		

> Homeland is family in Italy.
> We came up with one of our compromises: *Madrepatria*. Isn't it genial?


 
Yes, and ingenious (= imaginative). Sorry, I ought to explain my earlier post. French people often make the mistake of thinking that the English word 'genial' means 'associated with a genius' (because the French 'génial' means that). I rashly assumed that the same must go for Italians.


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## victoria luz

You made the correct assumption, teddy .

I don't know if Italians make such mistake, but THIS Italiana did.
(And, what's worse, THIS Italiana was so lazy that she went ahead typing, even though she did have an uneasy feeling about it. 
(In the back of my mind lingered the disturbing memory of someone saying ever so often "this is genius!", and myself wondering "why on earth can't he say genial?". Too lazy to ask, then. Too lazy to check, now.)  

Thanks a lot for pointing out, Teddy. And thanks a bigger lot for acting so friendly, Maxiogee.


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## se16teddy

victoria luz said:
			
		

> You made the correct assumption, teddy .
> 
> I don't know if Italians make such mistake, but THIS Italiana did.
> (And, what's worse, THIS Italiana was so lazy that she went ahead typing, even though she did have an uneasy feeling about it.
> (In the back of my mind lingered the disturbing memory of someone saying ever so often "this is genius!", and myself wondering "why on earth can't he say genial?". Too lazy to ask, then. Too lazy to check, now.)
> 
> Thanks a lot for pointing out, Teddy. And thanks a bigger lot for acting so friendly, Maxiogee.


 
No doubt they were saying 'this is genius' of YOUR work.


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## moirag

I think most people, like myself, would use "it" for both ships and countries. The use of "she" sounds rather antiquated to me, though it is obviously common among sailors/politicians etc. I would honestly feel extremely stupid and self-conscious / pretentious using "she". By the way, I am 49, so hardly "the younger generation".


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## moirag

Hurricane Dennis?


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