# Demonstrative Pronouns: deze/die, dit/dat



## Engeland

Hey guys!

I'm getting really far into learning Dutch but I'm getting super confused over die, deze, dat and dit.

Which mean 'this' and which mean 'that?' 

Also what's this entire proximal thing about?

The kind of sentences I want to learn to say are:

I like that!
I think this is nice.
That (chair) is comfortable.
This (apple) is really delicious.

If someone could please explain and give some examples of each word that would really help!

-Sam


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## Peterdg

Dit paard = this horse
Dat paard = that horse
Die man/vrouw = that man/woman
Deze man/vrouw = this man/woman

So, to summarize:

For neuter nouns in singular: dit = this, dat = that
For masculine and femenine nouns and plural neuter nouns: deze = this, die = that


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## cyfo75

this - dit / deze  ('this thing' becomes 'dit ding', but 'this apple' becomes 'deze appel'.) 
that - dat / die ('that thing' becomes 'dat ding', but 'that apple' becomes 'die appel'.)

There may be a rule for this, I just can't think of it now. Perhaps it is because of '_het _ding' and '_de _appel')

I'm not sure what you mean by the proximal thing.

I'll translate your sentences fairly literally:
- Ik vind dat leuk!
- Ik denk dat dit leuk/mooi is.  
- Die stoel is comfortabel. 
- Deze appel is echt lekker.

Hope this helps.


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## YellowOnline

Peterdg said:


> Dit paard = this horse
> Dat paard = that horse
> Die man/vrouw = that man/woman
> Deze man/vrouw = this man/woman
> 
> So, to summarize:
> 
> For neuter nouns in singular: dit = this, dat = that
> For masculine and femenine nouns and plural neuter nouns: deze = this, die = that



Let me add that "het" is neutral, "de" is both male and female.



*het*
*de*
*close*
ditdeze
*far*
datdie


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## Engeland

Thank you all! That helps a ton.

And what yellow said about 'close and far' is what I meant by proximal  I saw it in an article and was very confused.

_Deze_ gemeenschap is echt nuttig! <3

-Sam


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## stevenvh

In spoken language, in particular in Flanders (I don't know about the Netherlands), you hear more and more that people replace "dat" by "die".

"Het paard dat daar gaat..." 

becomes 

"Het paard die daar gaat..." 

It's *wrong*! I always shiver when I hear this, and it might ultimately (in 384 years or so) lead to the disappearance of the neutral form in Dutch.
Glad to add some confusion to this thread.


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## YellowOnline

stevenvh said:


> In spoken language, in particular in Flanders (I don't know about the Netherlands), you hear more and more that people replace "dat" by "die".
> 
> "Het paard dat daar gaat..."
> 
> becomes
> 
> "Het paard die daar gaat..."
> 
> It's *wrong*! I always shiver when I hear this, and it might ultimately (in 384 years or so) lead to the disappearance of the neutral form in Dutch.
> Glad to add some confusion to this thread.



? Dat is nu net een fenomeen dat ik met Nederland associeer ipv. met België.


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## bibibiben

stevenvh said:


> In spoken language, in particular in Flanders (I don't know about the Netherlands), you hear more and more that people replace "dat" by "die".
> 
> "Het paard dat daar gaat..."
> 
> becomes
> 
> "Het paard die daar gaat..."
> 
> It's *wrong*! I always shiver when I hear this, and it might ultimately (in 384 years or so) lead to the disappearance of the neutral form in Dutch.
> Glad to add some confusion to this thread.




Well, what's the use of having a neuter gender? It doesn't add any useful information, does it? This may be the reason why some native speakers attempt to merge neuter gender and common gender, be it very inconsistently. Too bad I won't live to see the end point of this evolution. The year 2398 is a bit too far away ...


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## stevenvh

bibibiben said:


> Well, what's the use of having a neuter gender? It doesn't add any useful information, does it?



No, it doesn't, but it doesn't have too. A language is a lot more than efficiency and logic. If you want that, you'll have to speak an artificial language, like Esperanto.

Much of the charm of a language lies in its variation. I'm fluent in English and at the moment I'm learning German. To me a book in German (admittingly I haven't read many yet) sounds much richer than a book in English. Just take the defined articles. In English you've got "the". In a German text you get "der", "die", das", "den", "dem", "des". It's just richer. (The drawback is that for German you have to learn the cases and their rules, but at least there's a rigid structure. English is just a mess. We think it's easier because we're much more used to it; we hear it everyday. Despite that I've noticed that a lot of my fellow Belgians struggle to make well-constructed sentences in English.)

Bottom line: the neutral gender isn't useful, but it adds to the language's variation.


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## YellowOnline

I already posted this somewhere, but I can't find it back. My favourite illustration of the importance of gender in language is this poem from Heinrich Heine (translation A. Z. Foreman):



_(German)__(English)_Ein Fichtenbaum steht einsamThere stands a pine tree- lonesomeIm Norden auf kahler Höh';In the north on a barren heightIhn schläfert; mit weißer DeckeIn slumber. Ice and snowstormUmhüllen ihn Eis und Schnee.Wrap it in sheets of white.Er träumt von einer Palme,It dreams about a palmtreeDie, fern im Morgenland,Far in the east, alone,Einsam und schweigend trauertStaring, in sorrow and silence,Auf brennender Felsenwand.At a blazing wall of stone.


Obviously (for who knows German), there's something lost in translation : the pine is male and the palm is female.


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## bibibiben

stevenvh said:


> No, it doesn't, but it doesn't have too. A language is a lot more than efficiency and logic. If you want that, you'll have to speak an artificial language, like Esperanto.
> 
> Much of the charm of a language lies in its variation. I'm fluent in English and at the moment I'm learning German. To me a book in German (admittingly I haven't read many yet) sounds much richer than a book in English. Just take the defined articles. In English you've got "the". In a German text you get "der", "die", das", "den", "dem", "des". It's just richer. (The drawback is that for German you have to learn the cases and their rules, but at least there's a rigid structure. English is just a mess. We think it's easier because we're much more used to it; we hear it everyday. Despite that I've noticed that a lot of my fellow Belgians struggle to make well-constructed sentences in English.)
> 
> Bottom line: the neutral gender isn't useful, but it adds to the language's variation.



Rest assured, languages don't need to be logic, consistent, efficient etc. In fact, I personally think that the charming thing about language in general is its inconsistency and changeability, even fickleness.

That said, I personally don't see how the presence of a neuter gender alongside a commong gender could possibly enhance the charm (or richness) of a language. To me it's a dull and unremarkable feature, just like the three genders in German. If this neuter gender served a clear purpose, I would be much more tempted to embrace it. As this is not really the case, I wouldn't regret its demise. That's all.

I fail to see why English is a mess. Do you really think that there are no rigid structures in English? Did you know that word order in English is more rigid than in German, which is partly due to the lack of a case system? Besides, allowing flexibility doesn't necessarily make a language "messy". For example, English can turn nouns into verbs with greater ease than German, but does this specific type of flexibility make this language messy? I don't think so.


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## bibibiben

YellowOnline said:


> I already posted this somewhere, but I can't find it back. My favourite illustration of the importance of gender in language is this poem from Heinrich Heine (translation A. Z. Foreman):



Importance? Nah. I'd rather call it being playful with a certain feature in the German language.


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## Peterdg

bibibiben said:


> That said, I personally don't see how the presence of a neuter gender alongside a commong gender could possibly enhance the charm (or richness) of a language. To me it's a dull and unremarkable feature, just like the three genders in German. If this neuter gender served a clear purpose, I would be much more tempted to embrace it. As this is not really the case, I wouldn't regret its demise. That's all.



The neuter gender is there just because it is there. 

Just like Spanish has the subjunctive, and we don't. Is it therefor not useful? A language can perfectly exist without the subjunctive, so let's get rid of the subjunctive in Spanish. I don't think so.

Perhaps you say this because you are Dutch?

I have the strong impression that in Flanders we have a much stronger gender feeling than in the Netherlands.


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## YellowOnline

Peterdg said:


> [...] I have the strong impression that in Flanders we have a much stronger gender feeling than in the Netherlands.



If only because often we still use cases in our dialects without realizing it  There are regional variations, but the essence is common from Bruges (Flemish - "_Moe je weere *den* dikst*en* èn?_") to Brussels (Brabantish - e.g "_Zij't *e* gat veu *ne* platau oep te zette."_) to Genk (Limburgish - "_Dat waos *den* *enen* daog tiegen *den* anere_".


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## bibibiben

Peterdg said:


> The neuter gender is there just because it is there. Perhaps you say this because you are Dutch?



Of course not. The neuter gender is very much alive in the Netherlands as well.



Peterdg said:


> Just like Spanish has the subjunctive, and we don't. Is it therefor not useful? A language can perfectly exist without the subjunctive, so let's get rid of the subjunctive in Spanish. I don't think so.



I wonder why I keep being misunderstood. 

If one day all speakers of Dutch have stopped using the neuter gender (jokingly predicted to happen some time around 2400), I wouldn't "regret its demise", which is absolutely not the same as trying "to get rid of" the neuter gender. In fact, I myself would never actively contribute to the downfall of the neuter gender, as I don't feel the need to be in the vanguard of language change.


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