# 道可道，非常道；名可名，非常名



## Zbigniew

hello,  it''s Dao De Jing.
My deep request: how to translate this short fragment/ I know the long interpretation on ctext.org, but I'd like to know, how to translate it word by word, and get to interpretation "the Dao that can be named is not the real Dao" etc
It would help me  eally understand the fragment
I would be grateful


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## Ghabi

Hello. If you want a word-for-word parsing, then:

道([if the] way)可(can be)道(said/told/uttered)非([then it is] not)常([the] eternal)道(way)
名([if the] name)可(can be)名(named)非([then it is] not)常([the] eternal)名(name)

Note the punning usage of 道 (way~say) here, which is often compared to Greek _logos_.


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## OneStroke

For more about the 'implied conditional' in this statement, this language log post may be of interest: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3340

The word 名 is used as a verb meaning 'name'; this is called 詞類活用.


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## Zbigniew

great thanks!!! this is the explanation I've been waitin for , really, for a long time


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## Skatinginbc

Zbigniew said:


> I'd like to know, how to translate it word by  word, and get to interpretation "the Dao that can be named is not the  real Dao"


That passage can be analyzed in many ways, for example:    
Coordination Interpretation: 
道(The way)可(can be)道(told), [but it is]非(not)常([the] constant)道(way); 
名(a name)可(can be)名(named), [but it is]非(not)常([a] constant)名(name).
道是可以被说出来的，说出来的却不是永恒的道，万物是可以去命名的，但却不是万物永恒的名 (http://baike.baidu.com/view/344137.htm).

Subordination Interpretation: 
1. Conditional: See post #2, which can find its parallel in 量小非君子 = (若)量小(則)非君子 "If one is intolerant, then he is not a true gentleman".
2. Restrictive relative: 量小非君子 = 量小(者)非君子(也) (肚量小的人稱不上君子) "He who is intolerant is not a true gentleman".   Likewise we have: 
道(The Dao)可([that] can be)道(told)非([is] not)常([the] constant)道(Dao); 
名([a] name)可([that] can be)名(named)非([is] not)常([a] constant)名(name).


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## matxil

I have a question about this. You translate "非常" (fei cháng) as "not eternal". But I often see that "非常" (fei cháng) if they apppear together is also translated as "very". For instance: 非常 - Wiktionary
So, then it would translate as: the tao one can speak is very tao. I am sure that's not what is meant, but how to explain these two opposite translations?


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## Flaminius

When used as a compound, 非常 means sudden, unusual, extraordinary, or delinquent.  In essence they all point to something not usual.  The passage of Laozi, however, uses 非常 as two separate words; "not" and "permanent."


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## T.D

Offering my personal opinions. 
道可道，非常道。 
1. 道 (the ultimate truth of the universe) 可 (can be) 道(told, explained, described with language), 非 (not)常(regular)道(told, explained, described with language)  ---- the ultimate truth can be explained with language, but not in a regular way. 

2. 道(the ultimate truth of the universe)可(can be)道(told, explained, described with language)，非(not)常(eternal)道(the ultimate truth of the universe)  ---- if the ultimate truth of the universe can be explained with language, then it is not truly the eternal truth. (meaning the truth of the universe cannot be explained with language, which also implies that, if you meet someone claiming he has figured out the truth of the universe, and he actually explains it to you, then you know his 'truth' is not the true, eternal one)

The confusion roots in the polysemous words of 道 and 常, which is still a heated topic among scholars.


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## SuperXW

matxil said:


> I have a question about this. You translate "非常" (fei cháng) as "not eternal". But I often see that "非常" (fei cháng) if they apppear together is also translated as "very". For instance: 非常 - Wiktionary
> So, then it would translate as: the tao one can speak is very tao. I am sure that's not what is meant, but how to explain these two opposite translations?


"Very" is the most common contemporary understanding of 非常, however, it derives from the basic meaning of the characters: 非-not, 常-regular, ordinary. "Not ordinary" means "extraordinary", which means "very" nowadays.

We won't expect to apply the meanings in a modern dictionary directly to the ancient scripts. The words and grammar are different. Those scripts are usually hard to decipher.

"The Dao that can be named is not the real Dao" is perhaps the most common understanding of the sentence, however, like Skatinginbc said, the passage can still be analyzed in many other ways.


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## SuperXW

Flaminius said:


> When used as a compound, 非常 means sudden, unusual, extraordinary, or delinquent.  In essence they all point to something not usual.  The passage of Laozi, however, uses 非常 as two separate words; "not" and "permanent."


May I ask in what context 非常 means "sudden" or "delinquent"? Are they Japanese usages?


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## Flaminius

Oh, I need to clarify myself.  They are not Japanese usages but my choice of the words wasn't particularly great.

What I meant with "sudden" is better described as emergency ("sudden occurrence" for the par, maybe?): 備他盜之出入與非常也 (史記-項羽本紀)
I don't know a better for for what I described as "delinquent," but what I had in mind was: 日有食之，鼓用牲于社，非常也; 大水，鼓用牲于社，于門，亦非常也 (左傳-莊公二十五年)
The latter two uses 非常 as something out of the conventions or timing.


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## T.D

Flaminius said:


> 日有食之，鼓用牲于社，非常也; 大水，鼓用牲于社，于門，亦非常也 (左傳-莊公二十五年)


常 has an archaic meaning of 'rule', such as in 天行有常。 and 非 can mean 'against' 
用牲于社，于门是天子之礼，对于鲁国这样的诸侯国来说都是违背礼数的, hence 非常。


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## matxil

Flaminius said:


> When used as a compound, 非常 means sudden, unusual, extraordinary, or delinquent.  In essence they all point to something not usual.  The passage of Laozi, however, uses 非常 as two separate words; "not" and "permanent."



Your replies are all very interesting. So, if I understood correctly, this means that it's often from the context and even from the time (ancient/modern) that one has to deduce what is meant. I am just an amateur in the chinese language, but I marvel at the (seemingly) ambiguity of the meaning of chinese characters. And I guess that Lao-tse often used this ambiguity on purpose, am I right?


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## Flaminius

Well, one needs a lot of historical perspective to understand a text at least 2300 years old.  Laozi is not just a very old text but it's a philosophical poetry.  Ambiguity, or metaphorical language, is bread and butter for this genre.  But 非常 is not the place to look for one here.  First, Laozi is very much interested in the usual/permanent/eternal way.  Although the character string "常道" is not found in 道德經, we can assume this much by indirect references such as 道常無名 and, 道常無為而無不為.  In contrast, 非常 (both transient and extraordinary) is probably not his interest because he is, well, coming from a perspective sub specie aeternitatis.

Second, languages develop from simple forms to complex ones.  Between "not usual/permanent/eternal" and "extraordinary," the former is clearly the more basic use, out of which the latter was derived.  The derived sense may* (edit: may not!) *have been the standard one until pretty recent (<- I am really guessing here).

Lastly, the language of ambiguity is manifest in the first and the second instances of 道.  The first one is clearly the way, but the second one is not.  It is used as a verb meaning "to say," "to name," or "to call."  This use of the word is seen in Modern Chinese too.  Case in point, 报道 is "to report" as a verb, and "journalism" as a noun.


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## matxil

Thank you for your very interesting answer.


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## SuperXW

matxil said:


> So, if I understood correctly, this means that it's often from the context and even from the time (ancient/modern) that one has to deduce what is meant.


I believe it happens in every language that you have to deduce the meaning of words from the context, just it is more common in classic Chinese.
In English, if I say "I can do it", it may mean "I have the skill to do it" or "let me do it" or "I will do it". You have to deduce what "can" mean according to the context.
And I believe old English is quite different to modern English too.
Actually, Classic Chinese language is understandable only to a few Chinese speakers. Modern Chinese words are much less ambiguous as they often composed with two or more characters.


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