# sent, altogether, hundreds of young Russians to study abroad



## travellingsalesman

Peter the Great sent, altogether, hundreds of young Russians to study abroad.

Петра Великого отправлял, всего, сотни в молодых Россиянам изучать заграницей.

to study abroad makes it dative
imperfective past

Please explain mistakes in detail with clear explanation


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## morzh

Peter the Great sent, altogether, hundreds of young Russians to study abroad. - 1) Пётр Великий отправил, в общей сложности, сотни молодых россиян обучаться за границу. 2) Пётр Великий отправил, в общей сложности, сотни молодых россиян обучаться за границей.

Either "за границей" or "за границу" are valid.
The first one answers the question "отправил куда?", the second - "обучаться где?".


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## morzh

Your mistakes:


1)Петр*а* Велик*ого*  - Has to be Петр Великий. It's the subject - ALWAYS (almost?) in Nominative. You have it in Genitive for whatever reason.
2)*отправлял* - if it was "kept sending" - OK, but "sent" - отправил.
3)*всего* - may be used, but then it has to be in the beginning: "Всего Петр отправил сотни россиян......". In your case, if you want it in the middle, the meaning of "всего" will change for "mere", not "in total / altogether". So you need "*в общей сложности*", or "*в целом*".
4)сотни *в* молодых - you do not need the preposition here; simply "сотни молодых".
5)*Р*оссиян*ам* - а) spelled with small letter "р", this is not English; 2) россиян - plural Genitive. What you have is plural Dative, and after "сотни" it requires Genitive.
Note: without "сотни" it would still be "россиян", but then it would be Accusative. With animate nouns Accusative and Genitive may coincide.
6)*изучать* . - "изучать" is strictly transitive and requires an object of studies. What you need is either "учиться" or "обучаться", which means "to study" as an intransitive verb.
7)*заграницей.* - за границей. It is separate here.

So,

*Пётр Великий отправил, в общей сложности, сотни молодых россиян обучаться за границей.*


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## VelikiMag

morzh said:


> 2) россиян - plural Accussative. What you have is plural Dative, and the transitive verb ALWAYS requires Accusative.


A small correction to what Morzh said: россиян is plural genitive in this case, because it comes after a number (сотни). This difference is important when an object is inanimate.


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## morzh

VelikiMag said:


> A small correction to what Morzh said: россиян is plural genitive in this case, because it comes after a number (сотни). This difference is important when an object is inanimate.



Yes you are right. I totally forgot about "сотни" when writing it and I remembered it as "послал россиян", which would be Accusative.
But here it is Genitive.


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## gvozd

morzh said:


> 1) Пётр Великий отправил, в общей сложности, сотни молодых россиян обучаться за границу. 2) Пётр Великий отправил, в общей сложности, сотни молодых россиян обучаться за границей.



No reason to use commas.


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## morzh

I was having my doubts about the commas, but then I think either with or without them is possible. "В общей сложности" may be used as an introductory in the beginning, then separated by a comma, and in the same quality it may be moved inside the sentence, separated by two commas.
Or it may be used without them.

I think commas are optional and not necessary, but may be used as a choice. When I speak, I would make a pause before and after.


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## gvozd

morzh said:


> I think commas are optional and not necessary, but may be used as a choice. When I speak, I would make a pause before and after.



We would use commas if there were the necessity to make "в общей сложности" an independent part of the sentence which bore some important information. "В общей сложности" wholly corresponds to "сотни молодых россиян". What is the necessity to make independent that part of the sentence?


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## morzh

There is no necessity. There is an option.

Like, for example, in the same sentence I gave two versions of "учиться за границей" / "учиться за границу".
I have the option of making it "отправил делать что-то где-то" or "отправил куда-то делать что-то".

By the same token, I think, I have an option to make the phrase in question being separate, or relate directly to "сотни".
There's no necessity. Necessity is, say, putting the object in Accusative when using transitive verb with it. Then you have no choice.
here you do. Or at least, I think you do.


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## gvozd

OK. Last argument.
http://search.ruscorpora.ru/search.xml?env=alpha&mycorp=&mysent=&mysize=&mysentsize=&dpp=&spp=&spd=&text=lexform&mode=main&sort=gr_tagging&lang=ru&nodia=1&req=%E2+%EE%E1%F9%E5%E9+%F1%EB%EE%E6%ED%EE%F1%F2%E8

I read that the rules of punctuation in Russian are much more rigid than in English...


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## morzh

Ну, ладно, я же не настаиваю. Тем более, я и сам сомневался, когда писал ответ, и даже Гуглом искал. Даже в Грамоту ходил. Там ничего нет, а Гугл, да дает, в основном, без запятьiх.
Просто написал так, как привьiк ето говорить, коль скоро правил не нашел.


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## Explorer41

gvozd said:


> We would use commas if there were the neccessity to make "в общей сложности" an independent part of the sentence which bore some important information. "В общей сложности" wholly corresponds to "сотни молодых россиян". What is the neccessity to make independent that part of the sentence?


I think, it depends on the precise meaning of the sentence, and on some context. "В общей сложности" may be an introductory-summorizing part after some enumeration: "был отправлен такой-то, такой-то и такой-то; ещё эти и эти люди. В общей сложности, Пётр Первый отправил ..." When the sentence is alone, such enumeration is kind of implied, to my ear. The quantity of Russians sent was already explained, so the sentence just summorizes it, not introducts it.

Of course, when "в общей сложности" merely introducts the quantity of Russians (and therefore corresponds to it, not to some previous reasoning), commas are totally unnecessary. For example: "Пётр Первый отправил в общей сложности несколько сотен молодых россиян учиться за границу". Another example, where the talk goes to Peter the Great from another topic (please excuse me my possible historical inaccuracies): "С конца XVII в. спор между сторонниками внутреннего самостоятельного   развития Руси и теми, кто считал, что следует использовать западный   опыт, решился в пользу последних. Поэтому вполне естественно, что с того   времени многим россиянам пришлось обучаться на западе. Пётр Первый в  общей сложности отправил сотни молодых россиян учиться за границей".


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## gvozd

Explorer41 said:


> I think, it depends on the precise meaning of the sentence, and on some context. "В общей сложности" may be an introductory-summorizing part after some enumeration: "был отправлен такой-то, такой-то и такой-то; ещё эти и эти люди. В общей сложности, Пётр Первый отправил ..."



I disagree. http://search.ruscorpora.ru/search.xml?env=alpha&mycorp=&mysent=&mysize=&mysentsize=&dpp=&spp=&spd=&text=lexform&mode=main&sort=gr_tagging&lang=ru&nodia=1&req=%E2%20%EE%E1%F9%E5%E9%20%F1%EB%EE%E6%ED%EE%F1%F2%E8&p=0



> В общей сложности ИЗВ после прохождения р. Москвой территории Раменского района увеличился на 21%. [Экологическое состояние р. Москвы на территории Раменского района Московской области // «Геоинформатика», 2004]





> Вот в общей сложности и сложилась такая экономия. [Здравоохранение: реалии дня. Отдадим долги и будем развиваться! (2003) // «Марийская правда» (Йошкар-Ола), 2003.01.17]





> В общей сложности наши доходы составляли рублей триста с небольшим. [И. М. Дьяконов. Книга воспоминаний (1995)]


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## Explorer41

Looks good. I would use commas the same way in these sentences. But these sentences a) lack context (therefore we have to guess the precise details of the meaning), b) are what you are saying about (by my guess): "в общей сложности" introducts a number, not a sentence, in all of them. Whereas in the example above the sentence is introduced, not the number (that's why the number -- "сотни" -- may be so imprecise, by the way; and in my example without commas, I changed the number to "несколько сотен", because "сотни" sounded bad to me).

Well, maybe *morzh* and I take some unusual meaning of the words "в общей сложности".


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## morzh

Well, I think our dispute has veered away from the topic and into something different.
As I said, I don't insist on the commas - in this case they are not required, and the sentence will be looking just fine without them.

After all, the question was not about the commas.

The bottom line is:

1) Пётр Великий отправил в общей сложности сотни молодых россиян обучаться за границу. 2) Пётр Великий отправил в общей сложности сотни молодых россиян обучаться за границей.

This is what matters here.


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## Explorer41

morzh said:


> Well, I think our dispute has veered away from the topic and into something different.
> As I said, I don't insist on the commas - in this case they are not required, and the sentence will be looking just fine without them.


Well, I do insist -- at least, when this sentence is alone or is said "by the way", by discussion on another topic. 

"отправил в общей сложности сотни чего-то" ... mm.. is not very good -- for me. I'd like to see more precise numbers in this case.

And I don't know precisely what is the use of "altogether". But it looks like it is a summorizing word too.


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## morzh

Explorer41 said:


> Well, I do insist -- at least, when this sentence is alone or is said "by the way", by discussion on another topic.
> 
> "отправил в общей сложности сотни чего-то" ... mm.. is not very good -- for me.
> 
> But of course it's another question. I don't know though what is the use of "altogether". Looks like it is a summorizing word too.



Well, it is the question for the English forum, but to me the usage of "altogether" in this sentence is not very good in the first place. When I hear "altogether" coupled with numerical context, I expect an actual number, no some indefinite "hundreds".

Such as:

We have to account for 30 systems altogether. - meaning that "with all included, considering some got cannibalized/disassembled, some - shipped away to customers, some are in the storage house, some are being repaired - we have to be able to count 30 systems".
Altogether also means "absolutely, entirely" - "I don't understand you altogether" or "I've lost the signal altogether".
Or "all in all", "all things considered": "Altogether, I think we did good". "Altogether, if I had to do it again, I would".

So, here we have some indefinite number. I am not saying it is impossible to use, but somehow I am not comfortable using it like so. Maybe, as the result, we are not very comfortable with translation either.

Another suggestion is:

The word "всего" that was proposed by *travellingsalesman * may be used, but in the beginning of the sentence.

Then it would become :

*Всего Пётр Великий отправил сотни молодых россиян обучаться за границей*.

How's that?


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## travellingsalesman

Thanks and these apply to past and future help. You're the best, guys!


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## Explorer41

morzh said:


> Or "all in all", "all things considered": "Altogether, I think we did good". "Altogether, if I had to do it again, I would".


Well, if "altogether" may be used in this meaning, then "в общей сложности" is good as well, if taken with commas, because it means exactly this thing when used as an introductory part to a sentence (I'd even say, we used it as a "filler word", like "ну-у" or "в общем", but with a quantitive shade).


morzh said:


> Another suggestion is:
> 
> The word "всего" that was proposed by *travellingsalesman * may be used, but in the beginning of the sentence.
> 
> Then it would become :
> 
> *Всего Пётр Великий отправил сотни молодых россиян обучаться за границей*.
> 
> How's that?


Oh, it depends on a goal, and on a context. I lack an opinion.


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## morzh

Explorer41 said:


> Well, if "altogether" may be used in this meaning, then "в общей сложности" is good as well, if taken with commas, because it means exactly this thing when used as an introductory part to a sentence



Was exactly my point. I considered it an introductory, moved inside the sentence, which still may be considered an introductory. This is why I put the commas there.
Though I consider it an option, so to me either way is acceptable.



Explorer41 said:


> (I'd even say, we used it as a "filler word", like "ну-у" or "в общем", but with a quantitive shade).


Agree with that - this is exactly how it's used 90% of the time, a parasite phrase of a sort, a filler. That does not necessary means "итого" when used. Though, again, it may.

What's confusing about all of this, is that it solely depends on the writing person's discretion, the way he or she hears it pronounced when used, and, the commas taken away, it is the same phrase inside the same exact sentence. This has to create the question amongst non-speakers, "there should be a rule, and there cannot be exact same thing, in the sentence meaning exact same thing, that is treated differently". Where in fact (if not in this case, then in others) it actually can.


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