# German Progressive?



## IdiotsOpposite

Does the German language contain a progressive case? And if not, how do Germans indicate that they are in the process of doing something, with emphasis on the "in the process of" area?

And, in German (as best I can):

Enthält die deutsche Sprache den Progressiv Kasus? Und ob nicht, wie zeigen Deutschen, daß sie im Prozeß von... (dieses Teil kann ich nicht übersetzen) sind, mit Schwerpunkt(?) am "im Prozeß von" Teil?


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## Sepia

IdiotsOpposite said:


> Does the German language contain a progressive case? And if not, how do Germans indicate that they are in the process of doing something, with emphasis on the "in the process of" area?
> 
> And, in German (as best I can):
> 
> Enthält die deutsche Sprache den Progressiv Kasus? Und ob nicht, wie zeigen Deutschen, daß sie im Prozeß von... (dieses Teil kann ich nicht übersetzen) sind, mit Schwerpunkt(?) am "im Prozeß von" Teil?


 
What you are looking for is not a "Kasus" - that would be the Nominative, Acusative etc. of nouns.

I think the right word is "Modus" - that, which you are espressing with the -ing ending of a verb, right?

We don't have that in High German. At least not as a verb-ending.

Somebody calls me on the cell-phone:

- Can you come over and have a beer!?

- I can't right now. I am washing my car.

- Geht jetzt nicht. Ich wasche gerade mein Auto.

Here the word "gerade" is the "Ersatz" for the "-ing"


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## Outsider

The progressive is neither a case nor a mood, but rather an aspect. Better to just call it a construction.


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## Robocop

Progressive *tenses* do not exist in the German language. As already mentioned, time adverbs or time adverbials (like "eben", "gerade", "just", "jetzt", "in diesem Moment", for example) can do the trick. In addition, there are constructions like "im Begriff sein etwas zu tun", "daran sein, etwas zu tun", "unterwegs sein nach", "auf dem Weg sein nach", ...


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## vmrweb

Although there is -as already mentioned- no such form in standard (High) German, in *casual* speech and *dialects *there _are_ forms like "ich bin am Auto waschen" (I am washing my car) or "ich bin am heimlaufen (I am walking home) which are considered by linguists as progressive verb forms. But their commonness varies from region to region (here in the south I hear it very often) and they are not accepted in written language.
By the way, the most common German translation for the term "progressive aspect" is "Verlaufsform".


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## IdiotsOpposite

Thanks for your help. So, the progressive tense does not exist in formal German, but rather in "informal" German, then?

German:

Danke für ihre Hilfe. Also, die Verlaufsform existiert nicht im Hochdeutsch, aber eher(?) im Plattdeutsch.


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## vmrweb

IdiotsOpposite said:


> Danke für ihre Hilfe. Also, die Verlaufsform existiert nicht im Hochdeutsch, aber eher(?) im Plattdeutsch.



Im Plattdeutschen, das im Norden gesprochen wird, gibt es die am-Konstruktion auch ("Ik weer an´t snacken" = "I was talking"), aber vor allem hört man es im Westen und Süden.


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## Suilan

aspect -- zu Deutsch "Aktionsart"

Wird meist durch Adverbien ausgedrückt, im gesuchten Fall besonders: gerade, momentan, zurzeit, derzeit. Bsp.: Ich schreibe gerade einen Brief.

Vergleiche:

Er sitzt in der Schule neben mir. = He sits next to me in class.
Er sitzt gerade neben mir. = He is sitting next to me.


Auch im Rheinland gibt's die _sein_ + _am_ + Infinitiv Konstruktion. Man beachte die Wortstellung (am immer vorm Infinitiv):

Ich bin mein Auto am Waschen.
Ich bin gerade mit meiner Mutter am Telefonieren.
Ich bin meiner Schwester bei den Hausaufgaben am Helfen.

Das geht aber nur in mündlicher Sprache.

Hochsprachlich korrekt ist dagegen die Konstruktion _an_ etwas (Nomen) arbeiten oder schreiben.

Ich schreibe gerade an einem Roman.
Ich arbeite noch an meiner Diplomarbeit.
Ich arbeite daran.


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## sokol

IdiotsOpposite said:


> Thanks for your help. So, the progressive tense does not exist in formal German, but rather in "informal" German, then?



Seems so, but be careful here: this isn't accepted speech in some regions. In Austria for example this colloquial progressive form does not exist, and I would guess that the same were true for Bavaria. Probably other regions too.


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## IdiotsOpposite

Thank you for your help. So, <reference to unrelated topic removed> progressive german does exist, but not in austria or bavaria, then?'

Again, thanks.


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## trance0

In standard German there is NO progressive tense. German has 6 verb tenses: present tense, simple past, compound past, past perfect, future I and future II according to my knowledge.


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## trance0

I would however like to point out that "am + nominal infinitive verb construction" is used in Austria or at least in Steiermark, because I have a friend from there and he uses this construct quite often.


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## Robocop

Are there ways to express progressive action in German? - Yes!
Are there progressive tenses with German verbs? - No!


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## vmrweb

The "am" construction, which is _by linguistists_ (not by teachers, who of course teach standard language) considered as progressive form, is definitely is quite common in northern and southern Bavaria in colloquial speech, although it may perhaps not originally be part of the Bavarian dialect. I'm sure about that because just now I'm sorrounded by people who have been living in various parts of Bavaria since birth and they use it frequently (actually far more often than the constructions with "dabei" etc.). We also talked about this at a university seminar (I studied "Germanstik" M.A.) too, but that was some years ago and as the spoken language changes rapidly I wouldn't rely on it. Anyways, we had the same result at that time. It's common.
For a learner of German I'd suggest: treat it like slang, i.e. don't use it yourself unless you are fluent and you have heard that construction often enough from natives that you are absolutely sure, when, where and with whom it's appropriate.


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## Suilan

> For a learner of German I'd suggest: treat it like slang, i.e. don't use it yourself unless you are fluent and you have heard that construction often enough from natives that you are absolutely sure, when, where and with whom it's appropriate.


 
It's not slang, just colloquial speech. Even radio hosts use it today (and thus help spread its use beyond the original dialect boundaries). It's OK to use it on any but formal/business occasions.


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## Robocop

vmrweb said:


> The "am" construction, which is _by linguistists_ (not by teachers, who of course teach standard language) considered as progressive form...


I cannot see your point. It seems that you consider, for example, "Ich bin am Überlegen" as *explicit* progressive form associated with the verb "überlegen". What about "Ich überlege gerade" then, what is the difference between the two? I am quite certain that the "am plus infinitive" progressive construction can *invariably *be interchanged with the "conjugated verb plus gerade" progressive construction, for example. As I said in my previous post, there are (several) ways of expressing progressive action but I am unable to see why *any specific* construction should get the tag of being "a progressive form" *in particular*.


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## vmrweb

Robocop, the reason is that the contruction with conjugated verb + "am" + infinitive can be seen as a *conjugated *verb form, as other tenses are also constructed of several parts, for example haben/sein + participle. This is not the case for the other constructions (in the example "gerade" is just an adverb). 
It's not my personal consideration, as already mentioned, but the linguistic view on the matter.

See also: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlaufsform
Note that they go even further, citing the Duden in its latest edition: "Lt. _Duden_ wird die Verlaufsform mit _am_ inzwischen „teilweise schon als standardsprachlich angesehen.“"

I agree with you that "am"-constructions are probably always substitutable with "gerade"-constructions (not the other way though, as "am" is not always and everywhere acceptable).


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## sokol

trance0 said:


> I would however like to point out that "am + nominal infinitive verb construction" is used in Austria or at least in Steiermark, because I have a friend from there and he uses this construct quite often.



This may well be, but it isn't (to my best knowledge) part of ('traditional') Austrian dialect speech. Probably your friend used this in written form?

Anyway, the examples given above by Sulian:
 Ich bin mein Auto am Waschen.
Ich bin gerade mit meiner Mutter am Telefonieren.
Ich bin meiner Schwester bei den Hausaufgaben am Helfen.
  definitely look *extremely strange* used in either Austrian standard language or Austrian dialects (any that I know personally, and I've lived over 6 years in Graz where I was also exposed to much Styrian and Carinthian dialect speech).


Probably your Styrian friend thinks that the "am Waschen" constructions are "standard language" - I don't know; but now I'm curious, probably you can find out.


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## vmrweb

sokol said:


> Anyway, the examples given above by Sulian:
> Ich bin mein Auto am Waschen.
> Ich bin gerade mit meiner Mutter am Telefonieren.
> Ich bin meiner Schwester bei den Hausaufgaben am Helfen.
> definitely look *extremely strange* used in either Austrian standard language or Austrian dialects (any that I know personally, and I've lived



In this word order they look strange (though not extremely) to me too. I assume it's a Rheinland specialty?

Sokol, does a spoken "ich bin am Auto waschen" also sound that strange to you? Or only "not perfect"?


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## trance0

sokol said:


> This may well be, but it isn't (to my best knowledge) part of ('traditional') Austrian dialect speech. Probably your friend used this in written form?
> 
> Probably your Styrian friend thinks that the "am Waschen" constructions are "standard language" - I don't know; but now I'm curious, probably you can find out.




Yes, my friend used it on msn, also in written form.


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## sokol

vmrweb said:


> Sokol, does a spoken "ich bin am Auto waschen" also sound that strange to you? Or only "not perfect"?



Well, I certainly would never use this sentence - neither spoken nor written. It does sound a little bit strange to me, but more acceptable than the other examples given by Sulian.

Even more acceptable (from my Austrian viewpoint, of course) would be sentences like: "Ich bin am explodieren!" - But in this case it is not about an action being carried out (like "Auto waschen") but a state you're in - and this construction is in a way close to substantivation of a verb, so not quite a kind of progressive form.

So the whole thing seems to be more complex than I thought at fist.
Anyway, any action carried out (at least in all the examples mentioned so far) - like "am Auto waschen" - do not sound "natural" to me.
Or probably some Austrians just think that this "am"-progressive-like "tense" is "proper standard language", I don't know. Me, I don't - of that I'm sure.


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## IdiotsOpposite

Thanks for the help. One thing that I have noticed, however, which is to be found at www . wordchamp . com (remove the spaces), is the existence of a form of the verb, for example, gehen. This form, in the example shown, reads "gehend". What is this? It lists it under "Präsens Partizip", which I believe translates to "present participle".


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## vmrweb

Yes, it's the present participle. "-d" does with infinitives something like the english "-ing".
But be aware that you can't - unlike in English - construct a progressive form out of a form of "to be" and the present participle in German. ("ich bin gehend" is ungrammatical, although intelligible and sometimes used in school to illustrate how English works). In the majority of cases it is used (and declined) like adjectives or as an adverb.


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## Suilan

vmrweb said:
			
		

> But be aware that you can't - unlike in English - construct a progressive form out of a form of "to be" and the present participle in German.


 
Some examples: lachen -> lachend

used as adjective:

das lachende Kind

used as adverb:

Lachend schüttelte ich den Kopf. = Laughing, I shook my head.
Ich bin lachend davongerannt. = I ran off, laughing.

as vmrweb said: "ich bin lachend" as such is not a valid construction in German. In the last example, _bin_ belongs to _davongerannt_.


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## Sepia

Suilan said:


> Some examples: lachen -> lachend
> 
> used as adjective:
> 
> das lachende Kind
> 
> used as adverb:
> 
> Lachend schüttelte ich den Kopf. = Laughing, I shook my head.
> Ich bin lachend davongerannt. = I ran off, laughing.
> 
> as vmrweb said: "ich bin lachend" as such is not a valid construction in German. In the last example, _bin_ belongs to _davongerannt_.


 
Still, this is a totally different use of the verb - when it takes on the function of an adjective it does not have much to do with the progressive use of the -ing.


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## KnightMove

I agree with sokol, these sentences sound strange to me.

"Ich bin am Autowaschen." - you have to compunt the words then, treating, "das Autowaschen" as a noun.

Two more notes:
* In Austria, it is usual to say "beim" instead of "am": "Ich bin beim Kartenspielen."
* In Germany, there is (at least) one usual expression: "Da ist die Kacke am Dampfen." (expressing deep trouble).


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## Freche

KnightMove said:


> Two more notes:
> * In Austria, it is usual to say "beim" instead of "am": "Ich bin beim Kartenspielen."
> * In Germany, there is (at least) one usual expression: "Da ist die Kacke am Dampfen." (expressing deep trouble).




I'm glad somebody mentions "beim", because, as far as I know, this is the correct version.


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## berndf

KnightMove said:


> "Ich bin am Autowaschen." - you have to compunt the words then, treating, "das Autowaschen" as a noun.


 
Wie schon in anderen Beiträgen gesagt, ist dies eine lokale Form. Im Rheinland und in Westfalen klingt "Ich bin am <Infinitiv>" vollkommen normal und ist mindestens ebenso häufig, wie im Englischen die _continuous form_.


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## elroy

Moderator Note: The discussion on the use and classification of the _-end_ form is now in a separate thread.

*Please *stick to the thread topic.


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## elroy

Robocop said:


> Progressive *tenses* do not exist in the German language. As already mentioned, time adverbs or time adverbials (like "eben", "gerade", "just", "jetzt", "in diesem Moment", for example) can do the trick. In addition, there are constructions like "im Begriff sein etwas zu tun", "daran sein, etwas zu tun", "unterwegs sein nach", "auf dem Weg sein nach", ...


 Doesn't "im Begriff sein, etwas zu tun" mean "to be *about *to do something"?  "I am about to eat" and "I am eating" are two completely different statements.

Also, I've never come across "unterwegs sein nach" and "auf dem Weg sein nach."  Could you give some examples of usage with English translations?


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## Sepia

elroy said:


> Doesn't "im Begriff sein, etwas zu tun" mean "to be *about *to do something"? "I am about to eat" and "I am eating" are two completely different statements.


 

You are absolutely right in your translation and in saying those are different statements.



elroy said:


> ...
> 
> Also, I've never come across "unterwegs sein nach" and "auf dem Weg sein nach." Could you give some examples of usage with English translations?


 
As far as the literal translations are concerned, this is off-topic because 

- Ich bin unterwegs zum Bahnhof,

simply means 

- I'm on my way to the railroad-station.

Nothing progressive in that.


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## Robocop

elroy said:


> Doesn't "im Begriff sein, etwas zu tun" mean "to be *about *to do something"?  "I am about to eat" and "I am eating" are two completely different statements.


For me,  "im Begriff sein, etwas zu tun" means that one has started doing something but not yet completed.
Example: 
- Er ist im Begriff, eine Dummheit zu machen. (==> he is in the process of doing something that he will regret eventually)
- Paul ist im Begriff, die Nerven zu verlieren. (==> there have to be signs of his loosing his nerve before you are able to diagnose it) 


elroy said:


> Also, I've never come across "unterwegs sein nach" and "auf dem Weg sein nach." Could you give some examples of usage with English translations?


When being called on your mobile, you could answer, for example, "ich bin unterwegs/ich bin auf dem Weg nach Berlin / nach England".


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## berndf

Robocop said:


> Er ist im Begriff, eine Dummheit zu machen. (==> he is in the process of doing something that he will regret eventually)
> - Paul ist im Begriff, die Nerven zu verlieren. (==> there have to be signs of his loosing his nerve before you are able to diagnose it)


 
Ich sehe das so wie Elroy: Für mich ist beides nahe Zukunft und keine bereits begonnene Handlung:
_- Er hat noch keine Dummheit begangen, wird es aber bald tun._
_- Paul hat noch nicht die Nerven verloren, wird es aber bald tun._

(Im folgenden Beispiel würde ich aber u.U. die Interpretation einer bereits begonnenen Handlung akzeptieren:
_Er ist im Begriff sich zu verlieben.)_


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## Hutschi

Hi, I never thought that "ich bin am Schreiben, beim Schreiben" and similar forms are not standard.

In written form they are seldom, because they are usually not needed. 
But I can say: "Ich war gerade beim Schreiben, als das Telefon klingelte." 
"Als Besuch kam, war ich gerade am Nachdenken."

Is there any evidence that this is not in the standard? 

I think, it is part of the pragmatic aspect that it is used seldom.


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## berndf

I should say at least the extensive (if not excessive) use in the Rhine Land und in Westphalia is non standard.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> Ich sehe das so wie Elroy: Für mich ist beides nahe Zukunft und keine bereits begonnene Handlung:
> _- Er hat noch keine Dummheit begangen, wird es aber bald tun._
> _- Paul hat noch nicht die Nerven verloren, wird es aber bald tun._


 Genau. 





Robocop said:


> When being called on your mobile, you could answer, for example, "ich bin unterwegs/ich bin auf dem Weg nach Berlin / nach England".


 Sure, but as Sepia said, that's not progressive.


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## Robocop

berndf said:


> Ich sehe das so wie Elroy: Für mich ist beides nahe Zukunft und keine bereits begonnene Handlung:
> _- Er hat noch keine Dummheit begangen, wird es aber bald tun._
> _- Paul hat noch nicht die Nerven verloren, wird es aber bald tun._


We don't have to agree on this, it is individual interpretation after all.
Perhaps I should specify that "im Begriff sein etwas zu tun" can mean either "be on the point of doing something" or "being in the process of doing something" depending on the verbal expression that it relates to. 
For example:
- Paul ist im Begriff abzureisen. 
In this case, it is clear to me that he is about to depart.
In contrast:
-Paul ist im Begriff, eine Dummheit zu begehen. 
Here you would have to be *clairvoyant* to know that Paul *is about* to do something stupid if there were no signs of what is coming. Loosing his nerve or doing something stupid, for example, are gradual processes that can only be noticed when they have started to develop.



elroy said:


> ["ich bin unterwegs/ich bin auf dem Weg nach Berlin / nach England] Genau. Sure, but as Sepia said, that's not progressive.


If it is true that "unterwegs sein" does not refer to *action in progress*, I must have misunderstood the concept/nature of progressive behaviour/action completely.


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## Hutschi

Hi, 



> ["ich bin unterwegs/ich bin auf dem Weg nach Berlin / nach England]


 
I too think it is expression of progressive. It is not expressed as a verb but as a verb phrase. Maybe it is not strictly a progressive _grammatical _form. Compare: "Ich komme morgen" is no special future conjugation (but definitely it describes the future).


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## berndf

Progressive has nothing to do with future, past or present. It is a verb form (and in "unterwegs nach Berlin" is no verb of which it can be a form) that expresses an action described by a verb which the speaker wants to mark as prolonged, especially if another action takes place during this period, like in "While the technician was installing the new PC the user went for a coffee".


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## Hutschi

"Ich bin unterwegs nach Berlin" is no verb but has the function of a verb - it expresses an action. Similar: "Ich gehe morgen nach Berlin" is no future form but expresses the future.

"Ich bin unterwegs nach Berlin" is no progressive form of a verb. It just expresses the progressive, similar as "Ich komme morgen" expresses the future without including a future verb form.


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## elroy

To me, "ich bin unterwegs nach Berlin" expresses a *state*.  The speaker expresses that he is somewhere between his point of departure and Berlin.  His car may be parked at the time of speaking.

"Ich *fahre gerade* nach Berlin," on the other hand, is progressive, as it expresses an *action* going on at the time of speaking.


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## Robocop

That is hair-splitting! What if I answer the phone aboard a traveling train - in a state of motion!!?? Your objection is beside the point!


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## elroy

I'm not sure what you're getting at with your train example, but I think my objection is entirely relevant. 

I would never think of "unterwegs sein nach" as a progressive form, and I don't understand how you can't see the difference between "I am on the way to Berlin" and "I am eating a sandwich."

The former *may* be concomitant with a progressive action, but it need not be.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> "Ich bin unterwegs nach Berlin" is no verb but has the function of a verb - it expresses an action. Similar: "Ich gehe morgen nach Berlin" is no future form but expresses the future.
> 
> "Ich bin unterwegs nach Berlin" is no progressive form of a verb. It just expresses the progressive, similar as "Ich komme morgen" expresses the future without including a future verb form.


 
Here the verbal phrase "unterwegs sein" in itself expresses an state or ongoing action (I don't mind the difference). By its very nature a progressive contrasts this ongoing action with a different use of the same verb which does not express this "prolongedness". If you say "Ich bin am Autowaschen", this emphasizes that Autowaschen is a prolonged action in contrast to "Ich wasche das Auto".


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## Robocop

elroy said:


> I'm not sure what you're getting at with your train example...


I was provoked to say that because you seem to think that it matters in this case whether, for example, the caller's car is stationary or parked at the time of speaking. But this is irrelevant. Traveling to Berlin (= unterwegs sein nach Berlin) as a whole is *action in progress* from the departure to the arrival. It does not matter whether I take a half-hour nap in between or even make a stopover en route. 
If someone called me to ask what I am up to, I could answer perfectly correctly - *depending on what I think that the caller wants to know*:

(a) "Ich bin unterwegs nach Berlin zu einer geschäftlichen Besprechung." I could say that even if at the time of the call I had just gone to bed in a hotel en route to Berlin!

(b) "Ich bin unterwegs nach Berlin zu einer geschäftlichen Besprechung, aber momentan sitze ich gerade bei Herrn X in der Bar des Hotels Krone in Düsseldorf."
In this case we have a superordinate action in progress (unterwegs sein nach Berlin) and a subordinate action in progress (in der Bar sitzen bei Herrn X). 

Both (a) and (b) clearly *express *action in progress and hence I have no difficulty in seeing them as progressive "constructions" (not tenses, of course). 



			
				elroy said:
			
		

> To me, "ich bin unterwegs nach Berlin" expresses a *state*. The speaker expresses that he is somewhere between his point of departure and Berlin. His car may be parked at the time of speaking.


"Ich bin dick" expresses a state. "Ich bin daran, unter ärztlicher Überwachung einige Kilos Gewicht loszuwerden" is action in progress.


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## elroy

You must have misunderstood my point.  I was not saying that whether the car is parked makes a difference; I mentioned that to show why I don't think "unterwegs sein nach" is an action in progress but a state or condition.  All that is expressed is that somebody is between two points, not whether the person is driving, walking, or neither.

The same difference exists between "I am in a meeting" (state/condition) and "I am discussing the future of the company in a meeting with my boss" (action).

By the way, I would not normally consider "ich bin dick" a state but a characteristic.  Your point was well made, however, but it only proves my point about "unterwegs."

"Ich bin dick" is like "ich bin unterwegs," and "ich bin daran,..." is like "ich fahre gerade..." (o.ä).


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## Hutschi

For me "unterwegs sein" includes movement. It can have different forms, it even can include stops, but it is usually a movement (with a direction to a goal).

"Ich bin dick" however does not include such movement. 

There is one exception with "unterwegs sein": it can be a state, if I need an excuse. In this case "unterwegs sein" is just the state that I'm not at the place I should be, and pragmatically it means: "Please excuse me. I know I did not arrive yet, but I try to come." It can also mean "I start very soon".


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