# cul-de-sac (origin and use in French)



## Jessuki

Hi everyone!!

I'm sorry I don't understand French, but I have a question for you French people   

Do you know whether this expression 'cul-de-sac' is french? catalan?

Thanks in advance and happy new year to everyone   

Saludos!!!!


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## Artrella

Jessu, it's French.

The NEW OXFORD Dictionary
OF ENGLISH

*cul-de-sac*
noun (PL. culs-de-sac PRONUNC. same) a street or passage closed at one end.
n*
figurative a route or course leading nowhere: _was the new post a career cul-de-sac?_
*ORIGIN * mid 18th cent. (originally in anatomy): French, literally bottom of a sack.


Bise, Art


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## Cath.S.

Right, _un cul-de-sac_ is a dead-end (street)


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## Jessuki

Thanks for your answers, Art and Egueule 

Well, then it's true that catalan and french are so alike 

Saludos


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## Tabac

egueule said:
			
		

> Right, _un cul-de-sac_ is a dead-end (street)


A cul-de-sac is a rounded dead-end street with $500,000 homes on it.


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## David

Since Tabac last posted, they have gone up to $502,000. Check in tomorrow.


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## mono

In a literal translation, while we remain on the subject, does 'cul-de-sac' mean 'bottom of the bag'?
Funny how, as Tabac speaks truly, expensive homes usually rest in cul-de-sacs, but its translation almost implies low quality (*laughs).


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## Tobycek

I'm not sure if "cul-de-sac" is used in modern French - can any French person help here? In France, I usually see "Voie sans issue"...

Any French speakers should be warned, though, that when it's used in English it has a very "English" pronunciation: sort of like "culldi-sack"  

Another phrase like this (which is used more in a foreign language than its original one) might be "fait accompli" - I've been told that this isn't used much in French anymore... but it's in regular use in English!


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## Eddie

Querida y estimada Jessuki,

Es una expresión francesa.





Ed


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## Cath.S.

_Si, si_, we still say _cul-de-sac _but since _cul _means "bottom", it is not written down on street signs, prudish town officials use voie sans issue instead.
Is is pronounced ku de sak.


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## se16teddy

Jessuki said:
			
		

> Thanks for your answers, Art and Egueule
> 
> Well, then it's true that catalan and french are so alike
> 
> Saludos


 
Cul-de-sac is commonly used in English too.  Does that mean that English is like French and Catalan?


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## emma42

I heard that "cul-de-sac", although made up of French words, actually does not exist as a word in France.  Is this true?  And who wants to give me a mortgage?


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## anangelaway

emma42 said:
			
		

> I heard that "cul-de-sac", although made up of French words, actually does not exist as a word in France. Is this true? And who wants to give me a mortgage?


 
Ah bon ?!  You made be doubt about it, so I went to look into the *TLFi*:


> CUL-DE-SAC, subst. masc.
> Étymol. et Hist. 1. 1307 cul-de-çac « rue sans issue, impasse » (Mem. Soc. Hist. Paris, XVIII, 177 ds GDF. Compl.); 2. av. 1755 p. métaph. « emploi, situation sans issue, qui ne mène à rien » (SAINT-SIMON, Mémoires, 345, 23 ds LITTRÉ, s.v. cul). Composé de cul* « partie la plus profonde d'un objet », de* et sac* (p. anal. de forme).


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## emma42

Merci, anangelaway.  Est-ce que c'est souvent utilisé?  Est-ce qu'il sonne étrange/faux?


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## anangelaway

emma42 said:
			
		

> Merci, anangelaway. Est-ce que c'est souvent utilisé? Est-ce qu'il sonne étrange/faux?


 
Non Emma, pour moi pas du tout. Je n'arrive pas à trouver dans quelle situation je préfèrerais utiliser _impasse_ à _cul-de-sac_. Pour un petit chemin de campagne par exemple, qui ne mène tout à coup nulle part, je ne dirais pas _'impasse'_, mais plutôt _'cul-de-sac'_.  
En fait, de plus, j'aime beaucoup _'cul-de-sac'_!


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## LV4-26

Non, _cul-de-sac_ ne sonne ni faux ni étrange mais parfaitement naturel au contraire. Simplement, je ne l'utilise pas. C'est une question d'habitudes de langage : le premier mot qui me vient à l'esprit est toujours _impasse.

_Mais c'est probablement (anangelaway a raison) parce que je pense "ville".


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## emma42

Alors, ce que j'ai entendu était complètement faux.  Merci pour la clarification.


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## Tresley

My French friend laughed when he saw 'cul-de-sac' written on a street sign in the UK.  He said that you would NEVER see that written on a street sign in France.  When I asked him what would be on a French street sign he said 'voie sans issue'.


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## justcurious

I'm a bit late but Tobycek asked about "fait accompli" and it's still in regular use in French but more often than not it's used in the expression "être mis devant le fait accompli".


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## Jihan

I saw Cul-de-sac in Quebec streets.


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## LV4-26

Tresley said:
			
		

> My French friend laughed when he saw 'cul-de-sac' written on a street sign in the UK. He said that you would NEVER see that written on a street sign in France. When I asked him what would be on a French street sign he said 'voie sans issue'.


 That's right. You would never see it on a street sign. But that doesn't stop people from using it in conversation.

I've been thinking about it a little bit since my last post and I'd like to give as precise an answer as possible. Even though anangelaway, myself and a few others like the word _cul-de-sac_, I think it's slowly but surely getting old-fashioned. That doesn't mean it sounds strange (at least not yet), it's just that people don't think of using it as much as they used to.

EDIT


			
				emma42 said:
			
		

> Alors, ce que j'ai entendu était complètement faux.  Merci pour la clarification.


Il n'est pas impossible que certains, parmi nos plus jeunes compatriotes, ignorent l'existence de cette locution (quel âge avait la personne en question ?)


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## Gil

Mon impression:
Les gens qui vivent dans un cul-de-sac préfèrent dire qu'ils vivent dans l'Impasse XYZ


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## Cath.S.

Hi Olian, welcome to the _French-English_  forum ! 
Both _cul_ and _culo_ come from the Latin _culus_ that means _arse _hence, metaphorically,_ bottom_.


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## Olian

Of course.
I know were my language comes from, and the which is its family. Fortunately I understand Catalan, French, Spanish and English.
But thank you for remembering the meaning for the rest.
Your explanation is much more better than mine.
 



			
				egueule said:
			
		

> Hi Olian, welcome to the _French-English_  forum !
> Both _cul_ and _culo_ come from the Latin _culus_ that means _arse _hence, metaphorically,_ bottom_.


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## Francis Nugent Dixon

The French and the English have been rubbing shoulders (in the use of their language) for 1000 years, ever since 1066. Many French words are used in the English language, and "cul-de'sac" is only one of them. The fact that the French don't use it (much) any more is because "voie sans issue" or "impasse" is used on street signs, and in other administrative references. They no longer use it much, but they still remember what it means. The fact that it is still used in French Canada is not surprising, as the French used there is *supposed* to be practically frozen 17th century French (what French was like in France a few hundred years ago, barring, of course,  the more recent Anglo-Saxon influences). The French language "changes" slowly, but it does change, and it changed more in France than in Canada .....


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## Gil

Quand même bizarre qu'on reproche plus aux Canadiens leurs néologismes que leurs archaïsmes.  Que le français évolue souvent de façon différente de part et d'autre de l'étang, soit.  Qu'il évolue plus rapidement d'un côté que de l'autre, je ne saurais dire.


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## french4beth

Tabac said:
			
		

> A cul-de-sac is a rounded dead-end street with $500,000 homes on it.


In the town I grew up in, the rich neighborhoods had signs that said "No Outlet" (ironic, because all of the electronic wiring was underground - no tacky streetlights, either  ).

In less affluent neighborhoods, the signs read "Dead End".


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## Francis Nugent Dixon

Gil,

Never did I suggest that French Canadian evolved more slowly than French French. However it is common knowledge that isolated languages (and French Canadian descendants WERE isolated) evolve differently from the point of separation, and often retain certain original aspects. French Canadian retained many aspects of the French that "they separated from" in the 17th and 18th century, but evolved differently, as a result of impact with other environments. But this is not my idea, it is the suggestion, the analysis and the findings of language specialists. I only repeat what I've read. As for the French Canadian, I love it, and wish I could hear it more. I would be proud to retain rather than change !


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
In the Lord of the Rings, Bilbo lived in "Bag-End" which, as far as I know, is not a standard expression in english and which, in the french version, was translated into "cul-de-sac", which is a standard french expression. As if Tolkien had thought to the french expression while writing his Middle Earth stories.


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## labellefemme

I understand that "cul-de-sac" can be rendered as "dead-end" in English but i am not understanding it in the following context
"1 500 hectares sont concernés cette année par la promotion de la culture du haricot lancée ce vendredi par le projet Winner de concert avec le ministère de l’Agriculture dans la plaine du Cul-de-Sac."
Can someone help please


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## SwissPete

Your answer is *here*: 





> La *plaine du Cul-de-Sac* désignée également sous le terme de *dépression de Cul-de-Sac* est un vallée au sud de l'île d'Hispaniola, à cheval entre deux États : Haïti et la République dominicaine.


The English version is *here*:





> The *Plain of the Cul-de-Sac* or *Cul-de-Sac Depression* is a fertile lowland on the island of Hispaniola. It extends from southeastern Haiti into the southwestern Dominican Republic, where it is known as the *Hoya de Enriquillo*. Parts of the depression lie below sea level, and it is home to several saline lakes, including Lake Enriquillo, Rincón Lagoon, and Lake Caballero in the Dominican Republic and Etang Saumâtre and Trou Caïman in Haiti.


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## labellefemme

So in this context you cannot refer to "cul-de-sac" as 'dead-end"? .I'm not understanding what "culs-de- sac" means


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## CarlosRapido

It is in fact a virtual cul-de-sac as it is closed at one end by the border between both countries.

I always cringe when I hear an anglophone say this; _cull the sack_ sounds so very painful


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## Rintoul

se16teddy said:


> Cul-de-sac is commonly used in English too.  Does that mean that English is like French and Catalan?



There's a major difference in this regard . "Cul", "de" and "sac" are perfectly valid individual words in Catalan, with the same meaning they have in French


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## Language Hound

se16teddy said:


> Cul-de-sac is commonly used in English too.  Does that mean that English is like French and Catalan?


Many languages borrow words and terminology from other languages.  This doesn't make them similar to those languages.
Although English, French and Catalan are all Indo-European languages, French and Catalan are Romance languages while
English is a Germanic language.


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