# Croatian (BCS): obrok



## esterov

Hi all,
I'm not sure about the decliantion of "obrok".
I need to translate the sentece "this package contains two portions (servings)" into Croatian. I tryed with "Pakiranje sadrži dva obroci." Is that correct?
I have another sentence similar "this package cotains 3 cans of two portions each" = "Pakiranje sadrži 3 limenke po dva obroka" Is that correct?
The sentences refer to canned vegetables in singular packaging or multi-pack.

thanks in advance,
Fra


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## Duya

esterov said:


> Hi all,
> I tryed with "Pakiranje sadrži dva obroci. obroka" Is that correct?
> I have another sentence similar "this package cotains 3 cans of two portions each" = "Pakiranje sadrži 3 limenke od po dva obroka" Is that correct?



Fixed, above.

_Obroka_ is so-called *paucal* number, which agrees with numbers ending with 2, 3 or 4, and for masculine gender is identical with genitive singular.

_Od_ I added in the second sentence corresponds with "of", and is optional; I feel that it makes the meaning clearer.


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## esterov

thank you so much!
I will take a look to these paucal numbers...
Fra


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## Duya

For some reason, it is not covered well in grammar books, at least not under the proper term "paucal" (paukal). Textbooks often name it "genitive singular" (which is a good first approximation, but for feminine nouns the accent differs, and for adjectives it gets more complicated -- see this recent thread).


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## TriglavNationalPark

Duya said:


> For some reason, it is not covered well in grammar books, at least not under the proper term "paucal" (paukal). Textbooks often name it "genitive singular" (which is a good first approximation, but for feminine nouns the accent differs, and for adjectives it gets more complicated -- see this recent thread).



And calling it "genitive singular" is somewhat misleading, since it's essentially the old *dual *form, just extended to two more numbers, right? The genitive in BCS just happens to be derived from the dual as well.


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## Anicetus

TriglavNationalPark said:


> And calling it "genitive singular" is somewhat misleading, since it's essentially the old *dual *form, just extended to two more numbers, right?



Right, it's the old masculine dual form extended to two more numbers and the neuter gender.



> The genitive in BCS just happens to be derived from the dual as well.



Not quite, the overlapping of the genitive singular and nominative/accusative/vocative dual endings for the main masculine paradigm goes all the way back to Proto-Slavic.


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## anana274

esterov said:


> Hi all,
> I'm not sure about the decliantion of "obrok".
> I need to translate the sentece "this package contains two portions (servings)" into Croatian. I tryed with "Pakiranje sadrži dva obroci." Is that correct?
> I have another sentence similar "this package cotains 3 cans of two portions each" = "Pakiranje sadrži 3 limenke po dva obroka" Is that correct?
> The sentences refer to canned vegetables in singular packaging or multi-pack.
> 
> thanks in advance,
> Fra




Hi, esterov!
I am serbian and I was reading your post... I just wanted to give you an explanation of the second sentence... As I understood it means that each can contains two portions so in croatian/serbian: Pakiranje sadrži 3 limenka ZA po dva obroka....
I hope it is usefull,

Regards


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## Duya

anana274 said:


> Hi, esterov!
> in croatian/serbian: Pakiranje sadrži 3 limenka ZA po dva obroka....
> I hope it is usefull,



Actually, it's not. Wrong case of _limenka_ aside, _za_ ('for') is a wrong preposition here. What could fit is either _od_ ('of') or _sa_ ('with').


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## anana274

Duya said:


> Actually, it's not. Wrong case of _limenka_ aside, _za_ ('for') is a wrong preposition here. What could fit is either _od_ ('of') or _sa_ ('with').



Sorry, 'limenka' was typing mistake... My mother tongue is serbian so I think I know cases  
Anyway, ok, maybe in croatian you use the prepositions a little differently...

Sorry about the confusion! Have a nice weekend!


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## DenisBiH

Somehow anana274's version with _za _sounds better to me. It may not be as close to the original as Duya's version, but it is IMO a bit more idiomatic. The cans are not made of (_od_) two _obroka _each, but (to be used) for (_za_)  two _obroka_ each.

If I were to list those three according to which sounds better, it would look like this:

1) _za_
2) _sa_
3) _od_

On the other hand, my mother seems to agree with Duya. 

To elaborate further, HJP gives the following:


> 1.     doručak, ručak ili večera uzeti posebno
> 2.     količina jela u jednom obroku, porcija
> 3.     otplata, rata, novac koji se uplaćuje, vraća itd. u ugovorenom iznosu i u ugovorenim rokovim



Perhaps it could be said that _za _goes better with the meaning 1), while _od _and _sa _fit better with the meaning 2). I only use _porcija _and not _obrok _for the meaning 2), so that could be the reason for my preferring _za_.


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## Duya

OK, now I understand the logic behind _za_, but I still don't agree with it.

My choice is not governed so much by meaning of _obrok_, but by relationship of _can_ and _meal_, in either BCS or English (because here I find the translations exact): The can contains two meals, thus it's can *of* two meals or *with* two meals. On the other hand, I would use _za_ if I talk about _beans (sufficient) *for* two meals_ or a _pot (used) *for* two meals_.


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## xpictianoc

what to you think about this translation:

"pakiranje sadrži 3 limenke po dva obroka svaka" ili "sa dva obroka svaka".


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## Duya

Meni je tu _svaka_ suvišno; oseti se da je  bukvalan prevod od _each_, a to značenje već ima _po_. Dakle, ako ćemo kompromis između svih ovde okupljenih, to bi glasilo:

_Pakiranje sadrži tri limenke sa po dva obroka._

Prodato?


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