# Native of/acquired separation



## calembourde

Hi,

I'll start off with some praise, because they say you catch more flies with honey (although I don't know why anyone would want to catch flies.) The 'Native of' field shown on the top of each post is really useful, so we don't end up explaining a feature of their native language when they wanted to know about the other language. People can easily tell whether differences in opinion might be merely differences between American and British English for example. Also the location field gives some hint at which language they're probably learning.

However, quite a few people list many languages in this field, not only their native languages but ones they are in various stages of learning. Sometimes they make it clear which ones are actually their native languages (which makes quite a long string), but other people don't, which can be confusing. When, for example, somebody who claims to be a native of both French and English asks a question on, the French/English forum it can be difficult to know what sort of help they need. Either way it is not accurate to say you're 'native of' some language that you're only learning.

So I propose we add another field, for 'acquired' languages, or something like that. The native of field could be kept for the language(s) that the person was raised with, and the other field could be the languages they're learning or have learnt (though of course one never stops learning a language!) Maybe even with a small image like a bar graph or colour-code indicating roughly how good they think they are at each language, so we can immediately tell the difference between a language they've been immersed in for the last ten years and one they just started studying last month.

I understand that many people are completely fluent in languages they're not native to, so perhaps the 'native to' could be changed to 'fluent in' if people feel strongly about not separating the two. But there still may be nuances that a native speaker understands better, so I think that even the 'fluent in but not native to' languages should probably go in the new section.

What do people think?


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## alc112

I agree with you.
I'm a native spanish speaker and I'm learning English and German. So, i put in Native of Argentina, Spa/Eng/Ger just not to write spanish, enlgish, german. It's too long!!.
The problem is that when you are registering yourself, the filed says "native of and languages" and the field in the forum when you are registered says "native of"


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## timpeac

alc112 said:
			
		

> I agree with you.
> I'm a native spanish speaker and I'm learning English and German. So, i put in Native of Argentina, Spa/Eng/Ger just not to write spanish, enlgish, german. It's too long!!.
> The problem is that when you are registering yourself, the filed says "native of and languages" and the field in the forum when you are registered says "native of"


 
Yes, alc is right - it is just the first word which is meant to be the native status, the other words are languages spoken.

For example I have England Eng/Fr/Sp being my place of birth and languages spoken.

I don't believe, however, in making anyone reveal anything they don't want to. That said I would certainly encourage people to give their place of birth.

Once there was someone who had just "English" in that line. They asked a question in a forum - I forget if it was the French/English or Spanish/English - and the way that put it was really strange so I said "your English is strange I don't understand what you mean" or something like that _because I thought I was talking to a native English speaker_. It turned out this was actually a foreign speaker of English and then I felt terrible because their English wasn't that bad, and that isn't something I would ever say to a learner. Of course what I meant was - "you as a native are using an expression that I find strange - what's going on". Oh well.


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## alc112

timpeac said:
			
		

> Yes, alc is right - it is just the first word which is meant to be the native status, the other words are languages spoken.
> 
> For example I have England Eng/Fr/Sp being my place of birth and languages spoken.


 
I wonder, you put first English becuase is your mother tongue, then french becuase is the foreing language you best know and then Spanish because is the least (??) you know?

I order the languages according to my knowledge:
spanish mother tongue
enlgish the one I best comunicate without being spanish
German: the most difficult I'm learning and th eone I least (??) know.


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## timpeac

alc112 said:
			
		

> I wonder, you put first English becuase is your mother tongue, then french becuase is the foreing language you best know and then Spanish because is the least (??) you know?
> 
> I order the languages according to my knowledge:
> spanish mother tongue
> enlgish the one I best comunicate without being spanish
> German: the most difficult I'm learning and th eone I least (??) know.


 
Yes, not exactly on purpose, but I'm sure that's what I did subconsciously.


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## fenixpollo

Check out these other threads that have touched on this topic: thread, thread, thread, thread 


			
				calembourde said:
			
		

> So I propose we add another field, for 'acquired' languages, or something like that.


 I agree completely that the current "native of" is insufficient. I think that having 3 fields would give us a more accurate basis for deciding how to phrase our responses:
*Native language*
*Learning*
*Location*


			
				calembourde said:
			
		

> Maybe even with a small image like a bar graph or colour-code indicating roughly how good they think they are at each language,


 However, I think this is not a good idea. First, people always rank themselves lower than they actually are. Second, it's totally subjective and two people with the same level of proficiency could rank themselves differently. Third, that kind of "ranking" puts a too-specific emphasis on ability... when what we really want to emphasize here is *helpfulness*. Beginners can be just as insightful, helpful and responsive as natives!


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## alc112

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Check out these other threads that have touched on this topic: thread, thread, thread, thread I agree completely that the current "native of" is insufficient. I think that having 3 fields would give us a more accurate basis for deciding how to phrase our responses:
> *Native language*
> *Learning*
> *Location*
> However, I think this is not a good idea. First, people always rank themselves lower than they actually are. Second, it's totally subjective and two people with the same level of proficiency could rank themselves differently. Third, that kind of "ranking" puts a too-specific emphasis on ability... when what we really want to emphasize here is *helpfulness*. Beginners can be just as insightful, helpful and responsive as natives!


 
I'd prefer
Native language and country
foreigne languages learinig
Location

I agree with your opinion, but Do you think people will ranke themselves lower? I think they'll rank themselves Higher.


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## timpeac

I think some will rank themselves higher, others lower. Either way I agree that "gradation of ability" would be an unhelpful category.


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## elroy

When users register, the fields clearly request "native country and language." "Language" goes with the adjective "native," but to avoid needless repetition, it does not say "native country and _native_ language."

That said, I do not think that non-native languages should be included unless there is a *clear* und indubitable explanation of the user's proficiency in said languages.

I grew up with both Arabic and English - and my English is by far better than my Arabic - but I have hesitated to consider English a "native language" on and off because of a technicality: I spoke Arabic first. Currently, I have both just to try it out and see how I feel about it, but at one point I had Arabic with "primary language: American English" in parentheses. Before that I had "native" in parentheses after Arabic and English to indicate that I speak both of those languages "natively." 

When I first registered I also listed the three languages I consider myself relatively fluent in, but made it crystal clear that I was not native by inserting "fluent, not native" in parentheses. 

At no point, however, did I clump languages of which I am clearly not a native with Arabic and/or English. If people would like to indicate what languages they "are learning," "dabble in," "are fluent but not native speakers of," be my guest but please be clear about it. Otherwise we can only guess what your slashes indicate.

It's not like we're limited to a pop-down menu from which we have to choose a native language. The software allows us enough liberty to be as detailed and creative as we want in our descriptions.

This is just my opinion. Feel free to criticize it if you wish.


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## mkellogg

Maybe I should take a look at the wording on the registration form...

The intention is for people to say what are their native country and language. Currently there are no fields for "learning languages" or "languages that you can write me in".

I'll take a look at adding these as optional fields in the user profiles since it causes so much confusion. For now, I suggest putting anything other than native language and country in the "biography" field.

Mike


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