# I'm so (adjective) that I...



## Nino83

Minasan Konnichiwa. 

In the song "Sore dewa mate ashita" of the Japanese band "Asian Kung-Fu Generation", this sentence is translated like this: 
透明なようです 悲しいさ 凍るほど 
I feel so transparent that sadness freezes me


Spoiler: first four lines



透明なようです 悲しいさ 凍るほど
聡明だそうです 口出すな もう二度と
亡霊 果ては幽霊 消え失せろ イメージごと
共鳴求めて 打ち鳴らすようなこと



Anyway, I read that this construction (so + adjective + that) is translated with "node" or "-te" (because) or with "hodo + adjective" (like in comparisons). 

For example: 
*忙しいので*パーティーには出られません = I'm so busy that I can't attend the party (lit. because I'm busy) 
*とても疲れていて*今夜は勉強する気になれない = I'm so tired that I don't feel like studying tonight (lit. because I'm very tired) 
あいつを殺したい*ほど嫌いだ* = I hate him so much that I want to kill him (lit. I hate as much as I want to) 
「"I'm so"」に関連した英語例文の一覧(2ページ目) - Weblio英語例文検索 
ほど - Wiktionary 

But in the lyrics of the song there is no adjective after "hodo".  

How does it work?  

Arigatō


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## frequency

I see "透明なようです" is stand-alone. So, 透明なようです does nothing with 悲しいさ　凍るほど if I'm right. （透明なようです ｜悲しいさ　凍るほど）
Therefore, try: 凍るほど悲しい. Guess what?


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> Guess what?


Another lyrics-like inverted order? 
Japanese language gets so difficult in lyrics. Lol!  
How would you translate this sentence in English? Is 透明なようです a consequence of 凍るほど悲しい, like the translation I pasted could make us thing, or is it wrong?


frequency said:


> 透明なようです ｜悲しいさ　凍るほど


My try: It seems trasparent | I'm so sad that I feel like freezing 
I tried!


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> Another lyrics-like inverted order?


Yes. Is that 倒置法, touchi-hou？（合ってる？） Sorry, I'm not sure about it very much.

The relationship between 透明なようです and 悲しいさ　凍るほど？ I don't see that they're related closely, but that depends on how you read it. 

And
_I feel so transparent that sadness freezes me_
Yes, this is good. Or that can also be like: I feel so transparent―I'm so sad that I'm freezing.
But in this case, I'm repeating _I'm_ twice, so the balance isn't good very much. The translation would be better. Well, that is just the way how you "cook" it.


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## 810senior

frequency said:


> I see "透明なようです" is stand-alone. So, 透明なようです does nothing with 悲しいさ　凍るほど if I'm right. （透明なようです ｜悲しいさ　凍るほど）
> Therefore, try: 凍るほど悲しい. Guess what?


I agree. This seems to me too like it includes two stand alone sentences(透明なようです and 悲しいさ凍るほど). 

My attempt:


> _It looks crystal clear; I feel as sad as it's freezing._


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## frequency

ごめん、あと「悲しいさ凍るほど」って倒置法でいいんだっけ？＞＜


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> Well, that is just the way how you "cook" it.





810senior said:


> I agree. This seems to me too like it includes two stand alone sentences(透明なようです and 悲しいさ凍るほど)._It looks crystal clear; I feel as sad as it's freezing._


Ah, ok. So "I feel so transparent that sadness freezes me" is a loose translation, actually there is no "linker/subordinating conjunction" in the Japanese sentence.
Thank you all!

A more general question.
In sentences like "あいつを殺したい*ほど嫌いだ*", "あいつを殺したい" is not a subordinate clause, like in the English (and Romance) constructions, but are two difference sentences, am I right (i.e there are no subordinating conjunctions)?
あいつを殺したい*ほど嫌いだ* = I want to kill him, I hate (him) so much.
While those examples with "node" and "-te" include subordinate clauses, is it right?
*忙しいので*パーティーには出られません = Because I'm busy, I can't attend the party.
*とても疲れていて*今夜は勉強する気になれない = Because I'm very tired, I don't feel like studying tonight

The English sentences with "so...that...", even if they have a similar meaning, there are syntactically different from the Japanese ones, isn't it?


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> あいつを殺したい*ほど嫌いだ* = I want to kill him, I hate (him) so much.


This ほど suggests the extent or level of how you hate him: I hate him as much as I want to kill.

*忙しいので*パーティーには出られません = Because I'm busy, I can't attend the party.
*とても疲れていて*今夜は勉強する気になれない = Because I'm very tired, I don't feel like studying tonight
The English sentences with "so...that...", even if they have a similar meaning, are syntactically different from the Japanese ones, isn't it?

I think the two are "so...that...", and different to the first one.


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> This ほど suggests the extent or level of how you hate him: I hate him as much as I want to kill.


Oh, yes, you're right. It's the same construction of "A wa B hodo adjective" with a full clause in place of the noun (clause-hodo instead of B-hodo).


frequency said:


> I think the two are "so...that...", and different to the first one.


It can be, but "node" seems to put more emphasis on the reason why something happens (it's *because* I'm...that I...) than on the "intensity" of the adjective (on *how much* one is happy, tired and so on, i.e I'm *so*...that I...), as it is in the English counterparts. It's an impression, I could be wrong. 
Thank you all for answering the question!


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## 810senior

@frequency, うーん倒置法でいいんじゃないですかね？少なくとも通常の語順では「凍るほど悲しいさ」になるわけですし。

c.f.
I want to kill him, I hate him so much.
＝私は彼を殺したい。私は彼のことが大嫌い(hating so much, intently)だ。
I hate him so much that I want to kill him.
＝私は彼のことが大嫌いで、彼を殺したいとさえ思っている。
I hate him as much as I want to kill him.
＝私は殺したいほど彼が嫌いだ。
(I'm not sure if the so doesn't imply that the speaker wants to take that action studiously in the so-that clause)


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> It can be, but "node" seems to put more emphasis on the reason why something happens (it's *because* I'm...that I...)


Good! You're right! I forgot to say that.



810senior said:


> @frequency, うーん倒置法でいいんじゃないですかね？少なくとも通常の語順では「凍るほど悲しいさ」になるわけですし。


はいっ (-ω-)ゝ


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## Nino83

I find funny that a little change in word order caused *all* this *mess* (lol!) interesting discussion.  
Next time I'll try to switch some word and see if I can grasp the meaning.


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## DaylightDelight

All sentences suggested so far can be paraphrased to resemble similar syntactic structures:

あいつを*嫌いなので*殺したい = *Because* I hate him, I want to kill him.
あいつを殺したい*ほど*嫌いだ = I hate him *so* much *that* I want to kill him.

*忙しいので*パーティーには出られません = *Because* I'm busy, I can't attend the party.
パーティーに出られない*ほど*忙しいです = I'm *so* busy *that* I can't attend the party.
cf. パーティーに出る*には*忙しすぎます = I'm *too* busy *to* attend the party.

*とても疲れていて*今夜は勉強する気になれない = *Because* I'm very tired, I don't feel like studying tonight.
今夜は勉強する気になれない*ほど*疲れています = I'm *so* tired tonight *that* I don't feel like studying.
cf. 今夜は勉強する*には*疲れすぎています = I'm *too* tired tonight *to* study.


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> I find funny that a little change in word order caused *all* this *mess* (lol!) interesting discussion.
> Next time I'll try to switch some word and see if I can grasp the meaning.



You know, in a song the writer has to allocate words according to the melody. I'm unsure, but 悲しいさ　凍るほど may fit with the melody in that song.
One more, see 凍るほど悲しいさ and 悲しいさ凍るほど. The adjective 悲しい comes first, so it's more emphasised; this is the way called touchi-hou if I'm right.


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## DaylightDelight

くらい is analogous to ほど、so you have to use くらい in ほど structure:

パーティーに出られない*くらい*忙しすぎます = I'm *so* busy *that* I can't attend the party.
今夜は勉強できない*くらい*疲れすぎています = I'm *so* tired tonight *that* I can't study.


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## Nino83

DaylightDelight said:


> くらい is analogous to ほど


Thanks!


frequency said:


> I'm unsure, but 悲しいさ　凍るほど may fit with the melody in that song.


It (almost) rhymes with "nido to", "goto" and "koto". Doing so, it sounds better.


frequency said:


> The adjective 悲しい comes first, so it's more emphasised; this is the way called touchi-hou if I'm right.


In another thread it was said that the postponement of the direct object (after the verb) put emphasis on the noun.
When word order is changed (postponing the noun or anticipating the verb/adjective, it is the same thing) which part do you (natives) perceive as emphasised? The anticipated verb/adjective or the postponed noun?


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## DaylightDelight

toushi-hou (倒置法) = anastrophe: inversion of the usual syntactical order of words for rhetorical effect
or
hysteron proteron: a figure of speech consisting of the reversal of a natural or rational order 
(both definition came from www.meriam-webster.com)

I don't know which is closer to the Japanese version.


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## frequency

Agree about the rhymes! 



Nino83 said:


> In another thread it was said that the postponement of the direct object (after the verb) put emphasis on the noun. When word order is changed (postponing the noun or anticipating the verb/adjective, it is the same thing) which part do you (natives) perceive as emphasised?


Well, it's not as difficult as you think so.

凍るほど悲しいさ is the usual, common word order: Formally(?) it should go this way. But you can switch: 悲しいさ　凍るほど or 悲しい、凍るほど. You _purposely_ switched the word order, so that the emphasis can be achieved.


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## Nino83

DaylightDelight said:


> I don't know which is closer to the Japanese version.


I think anastrophe is closer because it means simply that you change the order of the components (subject, object, verb), like in Yoda's speech, while in the hysteron proteron (which means "latter before") you place what happens temporaly later first in the sentence.
Hysteron proteron:
I ate and (then) slept. => I slept and (then) ate.
食べて、寝た。 => 寝て、食べた。


frequency said:


> so that the emphasis can be achieved.


Thank you.
But which part is emphasised? 悲しい or 凍るほど?


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## frequency

> But which part is emphasised? 悲しい or 凍るほど?


I may overdo, but it _could_ be like: 悲しい！　凍るほど。


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> 悲しい！　凍るほど。


Thank you!


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