# Romance languages: lexical differences between romance languages. It is not always as it seems!



## aum34

I notice that Romance languages sometimes have big lexical differences at first sight. However, a closer look show us that despite the lexical differences, they not always mean a lack of understanding, specially for romance languages native speakers (who have a deep knowledge of their own language) .To illustrate this, I'm going to use some examples:

As Spanish speaker, I can understand that "to like" in Italian is Piacere despite the fact that in Spanish is "Gustar". In old Spanish, the verb " PLACER" was quite popular with the same meaning like in Italian. For the same reason, Italians can understand perfectly "gustar" because, if i'm not mistaken, Gustare was the old way to say "to like". A second language student would not have this kind of knowledge. This could explain also why Spanish and Italian have a higher degree of intellegibility but a lower lexical similarity than Italian and French.  Word to word, they are different but it doesn't mean they are completly strange words, just the other way around. I just think that the lexical correlation among the languages is not the only factor that can explain the "closeness" among two languages.

A few more examples:

to come back

it. Tornare              sp. Volver (lat. VOLVERE but old Spanish Tornar)

to go  (lat. IRE)

it. Andare (old Italian Ire)    sp. Ir (Andar in sp. is "to walk")

To speak

it. parlar                   sp. Hablar (from lat. FABULARI, but also exist "parlar" to talk a lot. Also in South America "Parlantes" are the "loudspeakers")

Brother/Sister

it. Fratello/ Sorella(but Germano/-a brother of blood)       sp. hermano/-a   (but also Fray, Sor, fraterno, fraternidad, fraternal,....)

And so on... (from lat. AD RIPAM)

arrivare (it.), arribar (sp.),

it. mangiare (to eat in it. from late Latin MANDUCARE),      sp. Comer (from lat. COMEDERE but manjar in sp. is a delicious food)



What do you think?


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## Riverplatense

I think all romance languages more or less (Spanish or Italian more, Romanian and French a bit less) feed on the same lexical reservoir present in Vulgar Latin. But as change is natural to languages (in semantics often in the process of innovation—habituation—conventionalisation) the concrete meanings can change, mostly conserving, however, a certain relationship to the initial meaning, like the forms of ‹to take› in Italian and French _prendere_, _prendre _← PREHENDERE, but Spanish with a smaller semantic _prender_, or regional Italian _pigliare ← _*PILIARE _←_ PILARE, somehow similar to Spanish _pillar_. So some etyma develop without huge semantic changes, while others get a broader or more restricted meaning. But as most of those words are still more or less present in other romance languages, this definitely eases inter-romance communication.


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## Sardokan1.0

In Sardinian many times are used Latin verbs not present in other Romance languages, or used with different meaning, and often the meaning of the same verb changes from north to south of Sardinia.

for example :

the verb *"Prendere"* exists in _Sardinian _but it doesn't mean "to take", but "to immobilize, to capture, to tie"; like the English_ "Apprehend"_ that is a synonymous of "to arrest, to capture"


Instead the verb "to take" in _Sardinian _(central-northern) is _"Levare or Leàre"_, from _Latin "Levare"_ = to grasp, to lift, to raise, to remove; the verb _Levare _exists also in Italian but it means "to remove"; there is also a cognate : _"sollevare"_ (Latin "sub levare") = to grasp from below, to lift from below

In central-southern _Sardinian _istead the verb used for "to take" is _"pigare"_, similar to the _English "to pick"_; the same verb _"pigare"_ is present also in northern _Sardinian _but the meaning is "to ascend"

instead about _pigliare ← _*PILIARE _←_ PILARE, somehow similar to Spanish _pillar_

in _Sardinian _is present the same verb as : _"pijàre" (pronounce "pi-yàre"); but it's used as a synonymous of "to steal" (usually translated as "furare"), similar also to the English "to pillage" 
_


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## aum34

*In Spanish:*

Prender exist also in Spanish but it has different meanings:

-Prender fuego: to set fire.
-Prender: turn on. (specially in South America, in Spain "encender")

TO TAKE

-Pillar is a very common verb in slang (at least in Spain). Have a lot of meanings:
  -Pillar una enfermedad ( to get  infected by illness)
  -Pillar a alguien haciendo algo (catching somebody by surprise doing something)
  -The game "Hyde-and-seek" is jugar al "Pilla-pilla"
  -¿Has pillado la loteria? (have you bought the lottery?) / He pillado unas cervezas (I've got a couple of beers)
   -With children:  Pillín / pillina  adj. refering to being naughty


-Coger (from lat. COLLIGERE, to pick up) is the word used in formal language in Spain (but in Latin American Spanish "coger"  means another thing..."to fuck" hehehe, they use "agarrar" instead)

TO BRING:

Have three verbs in Spanish:
-Llevar (from lat. LEVARE) means to bring.                 A----->B    A reference speaker brings something to B
-Traer (from lat. TRAHERE, to bring to oneself)           A<-----B     B is bring something to A, the reference speaker
-Old Spanish: Portar (from. lat. PORTARE)


*In Catalan:*

TO TAKE

-Prendre  (to take like in French and Italian)
-Agafar (to pick up)

TO BRING

-Portar
-Emportar-se (to bring with oneself)

_Llevar-se_ means "to wake up"


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## Penyafort

Riverplatense said:


> I think all romance languages more or less (Spanish or Italian more, Romanian and French a bit less) feed on the same lexical reservoir present in Vulgar Latin. But as change is natural to languages (in semantics often in the process of innovation—habituation—conventionalisation) the concrete meanings can change, mostly conserving, however, a certain relationship to the initial meaning, like the forms of ‹to take› in Italian and French _prendere_, _prendre _← PREHENDERE, but Spanish with a smaller semantic _prender_, or regional Italian _pigliare ← _*PILIARE _←_ PILARE, somehow similar to Spanish _pillar_. So some etyma develop without huge semantic changes, while others get a broader or more restricted meaning. But as most of those words are still more or less present in other romance languages, this definitely eases inter-romance communication.



I concur but also think isolation/peripheral position and other facts affected that process of innovation in a sort of regional waves in many cases, often with Sardinia, Romania and West Iberia on one side, and Italy, France and East Iberia on the other.

We can see it in the example you mention, PREHENDERE:

Meaning 'to capture, take hold of'
*Sardinian *_prendere_, *Romanian *_prinde_, *Spanish *_prender_, *Portuguese *_prender
_
Meaning 'to take' in a much wider sense
*Italian *_prendere_, *French *_prendre_, *Catalan *_prendre, _*Aragonese *_prener_​Sardokan mentioned another interesting example, LEVARE:

Meaning 'take' in a wider sense (get, bear/carry)
*Sardinian *_levare_, *Romanian *_lua,_ *Spanish *_llevar_, *Portuguese *_levar
_
Meaning more restricted to 'raise, lift' or 'take off, remove' (and get/stand up in reflexive form)
*Italian *_levare, levarsi, _*French *_lever, enlever_, _se lever_, *Catalan *_llevar, llevar-se_
(The meaning 'raise, lift' has got lost in modern Italian and modern Catalan)​


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## Sardokan1.0

aum34 said:


> *In Spanish:*
> 
> Prender exist also in Spanish but it has different meanings:
> 
> -Prender fuego: to set fire.
> -Prender: turn on. (specially in South America, in Spain "encender")
> 
> TO TAKE
> 
> -Pillar is a very common verb in slang (at least in Spain). Have a lot of meanings:
> -Pillar una enfermedad ( to get  infected by illness)
> -Pillar a alguien haciendo algo (catching somebody by surprise doing something)
> -The game "Hyde-and-seek" is jugar al "Pilla-pilla"
> -¿Has pillado la loteria? (have you bought the lottery?) / He pillado unas cervezas (I've got a couple of beers)
> -With children:  Pillín / pillina  adj. refering to being naughty
> 
> 
> -Coger (from lat. COLLIGERE, to pick up) is the word used in formal language in Spain (but in Latin American Spanish "coger"  means another thing..."to fuck" hehehe, they use "agarrar" instead)
> 
> TO BRING:
> 
> Have three verbs in Spanish:
> -Llevar (from lat. LEVARE) means to bring.                 A----->B    A reference speaker brings something to B
> -Traer (from lat. TRAHERE, to bring to oneself)           A<-----B     B is bring something to A, the reference speaker
> -Old Spanish: Portar (from. lat. PORTARE)
> 
> 
> *In Catalan:*
> 
> TO TAKE
> 
> -Prendre  (to take like in French and Italian)
> -Agafar (to pick up)
> 
> TO BRING
> 
> -Portar
> -Emportar-se (to bring with oneself)
> 
> _Llevar-se_ means "to wake up"




Examples of the same expressions in _Sardinian_
_
*to set fire* = pònere fogu - *Example *: Sos pastores han postu fogu a su campu = the sheperds set fire to the field
*to catch fire* = levare/leàre fogu - *Example *: Sos campos han leadu fogu ca fin totus siccos = the fields catched fire because they were all dry
*to turn on* = atzèndere - *Example *: Atzènde sa lughe = turn on the light
*to turn off* = istudare or occhire (to kill) - *Example *:  Istùdande sa lughe / òcchinde sa lughe = turn off the light

PIJARE (synonymous of to steal) *Example *: Sos ladros nos han pijadu sa macchina = the thieves stole our car
FURARE (to steal) *Example * : Sos ladros nos han furadu sa macchina = the thieves stole our car
_
*TO BRING :
*
_Jùghere = to bring towards someone / to bring something with you
Battìre = to bring toward you
Trazàre = to drag

examples :
- Jùgheche cuss'ampulla a domo de tiu tou = Bring that bottle to your uncle's house
- So essidu dae domo e happo juttu sos pitzinnos cun megus = I left home bringing the children with me
- Faghe su piaghère, battimìnde cuss'ampulla = Please, bring me that bottle
- Sa macchina no ponìat in motu e l'hamus dèpida trazàre = The car won't start and we were forced to drag it
_
*TO WAKE UP :*
_
- S'ind'ischidàre (to awake) *Example *: Custu manzanu m'inde so ischidadu chito = this morning I woke up early
- S'inde pesare (to stand up) *Example *: Custu manzanu m'inde so pesadu chito = this morning I woke up early / M'inde so pesadu dae su lettu = I stood up from the bed

_


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## aum34

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Examples of the same expressions in _Sardinian_
> _
> *to set fire* = pònere fogu - *Example *: Sos pastores han postu fogu a su campu = the sheperds set fire to the field
> *to catch fire* = levare/leàre fogu - *Example *: Sos campos han leadu fogu ca fin totus siccos = the fields catched fire because they were all dry
> *to turn on* = atzèndere - *Example *: Atzènde sa lughe = turn on the light
> *to turn off* = istudare or occhire (to kill) - *Example *:  Istùdande sa lughe / òcchinde sa lughe = turn off the light
> 
> PIJARE (synonymous of to steal) *Example *: Sos ladros nos han pijadu sa macchina = the thieves stole our car
> FURARE (to steal) *Example * : Sos ladros nos han furadu sa macchina = the thieves stole our car
> _
> *TO BRING :
> *
> _Jùghere = to bring towards someone / to bring something with you
> Battìre = to bring toward you
> Trazàre = to drag
> 
> examples :
> - Jùgheche cuss'ampulla a domo de tiu tou = Bring that bottle to your uncle's house
> - So essidu dae domo e happo juttu sos pitzinnos cun megus = I left home bringing the children with me
> - Faghe su piaghère, battimìnde cuss'ampulla = Please, bring me that bottle
> - Sa macchina no ponìat in motu e l'hamus dèpida trazàre = The car won't start and we were forced to drag it
> _
> *TO WAKE UP :*
> _
> - S'ind'ischidàre (to awake) *Example *: Custu manzanu m'inde so ischidadu chito = this morning I woke up early
> - S'inde pesare (to stand up) *Example *: Custu manzanu m'inde so pesadu chito = this morning I woke up early / M'inde so pesadu dae su lettu = I stood up from the bed
> _



Very interesting. There is something strangely familiar with Sardinian. I find it quite "understandable". For example, "poner fuego" means literally "to put fire" which quite make sense.

To catch fire in Spanish would be "prenderse", following your example: "Los campos se prendieron porque todos estaban secos" but in Old Spanish "porque" was "ca" as in Sardinian and Romanian. 

What is the ethimology of Jùghere ? 

Also see the expression "cun megus" from latin MECUM (with me), which if I'm not mistaken, is only preserved in Sardu and Spanish. In Spanish is the same: conmigo < con migo< cum  mecum

Tio (sp.) = tiu (sard.) = uncle 

Ampulla (sard.) = Ampolla (cat.) =bottle

essidu (sard) = eixit (cat. valencian dialect) = exir,exida (old Spanish).


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## Sardokan1.0

aum34 said:


> What is the ethimology of Jùghere ?



It could be a twisted version of "Ducere" (to lead, to bring with you), with classical pronounce it would be "dùkere" : Ducere -> Dukere -> Jùghere or Jùchere (pronounced "Jùkere" on the mountains)

or perhaps from the verb "Jungere" (to join, to reunite, to gather) + classical pronounce "Jùnghere" : Jungere -> Jùnghere -> Jùghere


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## killerbee256

I speak Spanish and Portuguese and I spent a month in Italy a few years back(in Rosignano Marittimo, Tuscany and Rome.) After a week and half I could understand & communicate with the locals. Many words are under stood in both languages even if they have slightly different meanings, for example _chiedere_/_querer_. However _gustar/gostar _is not understandable to an italian, in italian _gustare_ retains the Latin meaning "to taste," in Spanish and Portuguese as you know it's primary meaning now is "to like." If said for example "_Eu gosto leer_ _de historia_" with out thinking the person I was speaking with gave me a very confused look.


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## aum34

killerbee256 said:


> I speak Spanish and Portuguese and I spent a month in Italy a few years back(in Rosignano Marittimo, Tuscany and Rome.) After a week and half I could understand & communicate with the locals. Many words are under stood in both languages even if they have slightly different meanings, for example _chiedere_/_querer_. However _gustar/gostar _is not understandable to an italian, in italian _gustare_ retains the Latin meaning "to taste," in Spanish and Portuguese as you know it's primary meaning now is "to like." If said for example "_Eu gosto leer_ _de historia_" with out thinking the person I was speaking with gave me a very confused look.



Gustare, if im not wrong, not only means "to taste".  It means also to do something,  eat or drink something that you like and enjoy, that you do with pleasure, so that gets closer to "gustar" in Spanish or Portuguese . On the other hand, the sentence you wrote is in Portuguese and Portuguese pronuntiation sounds completly different to the Italian or Spanish one . That could explain why they didn't understand. Or of course, that simply they didn't understand "gustar"  It is just that it has never been my experience with Italians.


> This from Olivetti:
> 
> gustàre
> gu|stà|re
> pronuncia: /gusˈtare/
> verbo transitivo
> 
> *1* distinguere, percepire il sapore per mezzo del gusto il raffreddore non lascia gustare i sapori
> 
> *2* assaggiare quanto basta di una bevanda o di un cibo per sentirne il sapore gusta un pezzo di questo torta | gustare la minestra | gustiamo questo vino | ne prendo solo un po', tanto per gustare | gustare a fior di labbra
> 
> *3* assaporare, mangiare o bere qualcosa con piacere, apprezzandone il sapore ho veramente gustato questa frutta | gustare un bicchierino di liquore | gustare una sigaretta | gustare un sigaro | mangio lentamente per meglio gustare questa ottima pietanza | se vuoi gustare veramente questo vino, bevilo fresco | gustare un gelato | gustare un bel pranzo | gustare un bel piatto; si rafforza con la forma pronominale finalmente posso gustarmi una sigaretta in santa pace! | questo vinello me lo voglio gustare stasera con gli amici
> 
> *4* figurato apprezzare traendo profonda soddisfazione o intimo godimento; godere di qualcosa con competenza gustare la dolcezza di una tiepida giornata | gustare il silenzio | gustare la quiete della campagna | gustare la musica | gustare la pittura | gustare la poesia | gustare il piacere della pace | gustare le parole | gustare il fresco | ho gustato quel libro fino all'ultima pagina | gustare un'opera d'arte | gustare un'esecuzione musicale | gustare la bellezza del paesaggio; si rafforza con la forma pronominale gustarsi uno spettacolo | gustarsi la scena | gustarsi un disco di musica leggera | gustarsi una bella vacanza | gustarsi un bel concerto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *verbo intransitivo
> 
> (AVERE o ESSERE) familiare garbare, riuscire gradito, piacere, andare a genio ti gusterebbe una bella gita? | è un'idea che mi gusta poco | il tuo comportamento non mi gusta affatto
> 
> That is exactly as in Spanish or Portuguese*
> 
> *gustàrsi*
> gu|stàr|si
> pronuncia: /gusˈtarsi/
> verbo pronominale transitivo
> 
> *1* con valore intensivo, assaporare con particolare piacere: finalmente posso gustarmi una sigaretta in santa pace! | questo vinello me lo voglio gustare stasera con gli amici | gustarsi un caffé | gustarsi un buon bicchiere | gustarsi una pizza | mi sono proprio gustato quella fetta di torta
> 
> *2* figurato godersi in modo particolare gustarsi uno spettacolo | gustarsi la scena | gustarsi un disco di musica leggera | gustarsi una bella vacanza | gustarsi un bel concerto | gustarsi un bel film | gustarsi un bel libro


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## killerbee256

I wrote in Portuguese, but my actual pronunciation is a mix of Brazilian Portuguese and Spanish, and at that time italian. I had picked up a bit of Italian accent while I was there but it faded with time. I found that many times dispite the dictionary saying a word had a secondary meaning closer to Iberian romance, actual people would not always understand the word if used that way. It honestly depended on the education of the speaker, my Italian archeaolgy professor understood more of these words due to his in depth knowledge of latin.


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## jazyk

A Portuguese speaker would not have understood either. If you mean I like to read stories, it should be (Eu) gosto de ler histórias. If you mean I like to read about history, then it is (Eu) gosto de ler sobre história.


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## guihenning

Sardokan1.0 said:


> the verb *"Prendere"* exists in _Sardinian _but it doesn't mean "to take", but "to immobilize, to capture, to tie"; like the English_ "Apprehend"_ that is a synonymous of "to arrest, to capture"


 Roughly the same in Portuguese. I think it's very interesting that I can read Sardinian and understand a bit of it when it's related to Portuguese.
Portuguese surprisingly also uses the same verbs for certain actions you mentioned:
_*to set fire* = pònere fogu - *Example *: Sos pastores han postu fogu a su campu = the sheperds set fire to the field
*to set fire* = pôr/atear fogo — *Example*: Os pastores puseram fogo no campo —quite literal translation— [PONERE > poer > pôr]
*to turn on* = atzèndere - *Example *: Atzènde sa lughe = turn on the light
*to turn on *= acender — *Example*: acende a luz_
Also, some Sardinian spellings reflect our pronunciation: _fogu_ (fogo), _campu_ (campo), _postu_ (posto)… Unstressed, post-tonic 'o' is always realized as 'u' in all* dialects of the Portuguese language.
*debatable

Yes, 'gostar' is mainly related to 'to like', but dictionaries still mention it as _possible_ for 'to taste' and none of them mark it as obsolete (even though no one uses it like that). The structure for such is also different, if it means 'to taste', 'to eat', no preposition is used: «_Eu gosto uvas passas» _(?) (this looks and sounds very odd), but if it means 'to like', «_de_» is mandatory: «_Eu gosto de uva passa»_
Still, our tongues have 'papilas gustativas', which is a latinism, but we all understand it's related to the verb 'gostar'. Also, when we say something 'tastes' like x, we say 'isso tem *gosto* de' [this has flavor of]. So even though the verb has changed its main, perhaps original, meaning, it still retains meanings or uses that trace it back to latin or at least to Italian/French for _gustare/goûter. _Oh, and there is also the verb «_degustar_».
At last, we have the verb 'prazer' (obsolete) and 'aprazer' (rare) which are cognates to Italian/French _piacere/plaire _and mean the same thing, the structure is also identical.
_ « ça me plaît » > «isto me apraz»_


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## heterônimo

Another interesting word is Fr. _entendre _and It_. intendere _which can both mean 'to understand' and 'to hear', unlike Sp./Pt. _entender _which can only mean 'to understand'.


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## Sardokan1.0

heterônimo said:


> Another interesting word is Fr. _entendre _and It_. intendere _which can both mean 'to understand' and 'to hear', unlike Sp./Pt. _entender _which can only mean 'to understand'.



In Sardinian the verb _Intendere _means only "to hear"; there is also the verb _Aiscultare_ (to listen to); while the verb "to understand" is _cumprendere_


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## Penyafort

Old Spanish _entender_ and Old Catalan _entendre_ could also mean 'to hear'.


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## Testing1234567

Sardokan1.0 said:


> In Sardinian the verb _Intendere _means only "to hear"; there is also the verb _Aiscultare_ (to listen to); while the verb "to understand" is _cumprendere_


Nice archaism from Latin *auscultāre*.


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## Olaszinhok

killerbee256 said:


> I found that many times dispite the dictionary saying a word had a secondary meaning closer to Iberian romance, actual people would not always understand the word if used that way. It honestly depended on the education of the speaker, my Italian archeaolgy professor understood more of these words due to his in depth knowledge of latin



I think an educated Italian can understand from 50% to 80% of spoken Spanish if they don't speak too fast, particularly interviews, tourist guides, recordings, ect. I can speak Spanish but a friend of mine, who had never learnt Spanish, once told me that he could understand about 70% of what a Spanish tourist guide was saying. The percentage can also change according to the Italian dialect spoken by the listener. Obviously dialogues can be harder to grasp.


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## Sardokan1.0

Spanish can be quite easy to understand for Sardinian speakers due to the many similarities between both languages, Sardinian language sometimes shows evolutive solutions similar to Castillan or to Portuguese or to Catalan; however it's not a Western Romance language and neither Eastern Romance, it's someway in the middle.

Example : 



Spoiler: A Spanish text from Wikipedia 



El español, como las otras lenguas romances, es una continuación moderna del latín hablado (denominado latín vulgar), desde el siglo III, que tras el desmembramiento del Imperio romano fue divergiendo de las otras variantes del latín que se hablaban en las distintas provincias del antiguo Imperio, dando lugar mediante una lenta evolución a las distintas lenguas romances. Debido a su propagación por América, el español es, con diferencia, la lengua romance que ha logrado mayor difusión.






Spoiler: The same text translated in Sardinian (Logudorese)



S'ispagnolu, comente sas àteras limbas romanzas, est una continuazione moderna de su latinu faeddadu (denominadu latinu vulgare), dae su seculu IIIu, qui pùstis de s'ismembramentu de s'Imperu Romanu fit divergende dae sas àteras variantes de su latinu qui si faeddaìan in sas distintas provincias de s'antigu Imperu, dende logu mediante una lenta evoluzione a sas distintas limbas romanzas. Dèpidu a sa propagazione sua peri s'America, s'ispagnolu este, de seguru, sa limba romanza qui hat lòmpidu mazòre diffusione.


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## irinet

Testing1234567 said:


> Nice archaism from Latin *auscultāre*.



We have *asculta(re), fura, aduce(re), prinde(re), gusta(re) *for taste*.*


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## Sardokan1.0

irinet said:


> fura



Same here : 

_Furare = To Steal_
_Fura = Theft_

Indicative Present :_ furo, fùras, fùrat, furàmus, furàdes, fùran_


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## guihenning

From _auscultare_ we have '_escutar_'. Also a medical latinism '_auscultar_' (with a stethoscope).
Entender can also mean 'to hear', but _ouvir/escutar_ are much more used in such sense.
If understanding is the matter, than both _compreender/entender_ can be used, the latter more common in Brazil. The Portuguese sometimes prefer '_perceber_'.

What are the Sardinian verbs for 'to wait' and 'to hope'?


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## Sardokan1.0

guihenning said:


> What are the Sardinian verbs for 'to wait' and 'to hope'?



_Aispettare / Ispettare_ = to wait



Spoiler: Indicative Present



_aispètto, aispèttas, aispèttat, aispettàmus, aispettàdes, aispèttan_



_Isperare_ = to hope



Spoiler: Indicative Present



_Ispèro, ispèras, ispèrat, isperàmus, isperàdes, ispèran_


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## guihenning

I wonder why Portuguese and Spanish use '_esperar_' for both 'wait' and 'hope', though Brazilian/Portuguese dictionaries say 'atender' can also mean 'to wait', if intransitive; but I've never seen such construction.


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## Sardokan1.0

guihenning said:


> I wonder why Portuguese and Spanish use '_esperar_' for both 'wait' and 'hope', though Brazilian/Portuguese dictionaries say 'atender' can also mean 'to wait', if intransitive; but I've never seen such construction.



In Italian the verb "Attendere" means "to wait", along with "Aspettare"

while in Sardinian the verb "Attendere" has preserved the original Latin meaning of (to tend, to take care of) : Ad Tendere -> Attendere

Couldn't the Iberian "esperar" (to wait) be a corrupted version of "aspettare"? And the similarity with "esperar" (to hope) be only an evolutive coincidence?

Esperar (to wait) : Latin - ex spectare -> espectare -> espetare -> espertare -> esperare
Esperar (to hope) : Latin - ex sperare -> esperare


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## heterônimo

guihenning said:


> Entender can also mean 'to hear', but _ouvir/escutar_ are much more used in such sense.



There's a nuance here. _Entender _in Standard (Modern) Portuguese can only mean 'to listen' (_escutar_), not 'to hear' (_ouvir_). Like in the phrase: "Tem muito barulho aqui, não consigo te entender" i.e. to hear and understand.

On the other hand, French _entendre_, for instance, can simply mean 'to hear' like in "J'ai entendu un bruit bizarre" (I heard a weird noise).



guihenning said:


> I wonder why Portuguese and Spanish use '_esperar_' for both 'wait' and 'hope', though Brazilian/Portuguese dictionaries say 'atender' can also mean 'to wait', if intransitive; but I've never seen such construction.



Probably a Gallicism? _Attendre _is 'to wait' in French. Also, French _espérer _in Modern French is only used as 'to hope'.



Sardokan1.0 said:


> Couldn't the Iberian "esperar" (to wait) be a corrupted version of "aspettare"? And the similarity with "esperar" (to hope) be only an evolutive coincidence?



_Esperar _comes from s_perare (_from_ spes). _As for It._ aspettare_, Wikitionary mentions _aspectare (_from_ aspecto) _as its etymology.


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## Testing1234567

The descendants of Latin *spērāre* unequivocally inherited the meaning of "to hope", and in the Iberian Romance languages, the descendant seems to also carry a meaning of "to wait". Also, Wiktionary lists "I await" as one of the definitions of Latin *spērō*.


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## Nino83

Testing1234567 said:


> and in the Iberian Romance languages, the descendant seems to *also* carry a meaning of "to wait"


Exactly. 
This is the answer I got in the Portuguese forum some years ago. 
_esperar *para* fazer algo => to wait
esperar fazer algo => to hope_


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## heterônimo

Nino83 said:


> Exactly.
> This is the answer I got in the Portuguese forum some years ago.
> _esperar *para* fazer algo => to wait
> esperar fazer algo => to hope_



Also, _esperar *por *alguém _or simply _esperar alguém _(both meaning 'wait for someone').


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## Penyafort

Sardokan1.0 said:


> Couldn't the Iberian "esperar" (to wait) be a corrupted version of "aspettare"? And the similarity with "esperar" (to hope) be only an evolutive coincidence?
> 
> Esperar (to wait) : Latin - ex spectare -> espectare -> espetare -> espertare -> esperare
> Esperar (to hope) : Latin - ex sperare -> esperare



I don't think so, as a hypothetical evolution of **espectare *would have given solutions like these:

Portuguese: espeitar
Asturian: espeitar / espechar
Spanish: espechar
Aragonese: espeitar(e) / espitar(e)
Catalan: espitar​
Which maybe avoided some confusion with words coming from **despectare*:

Portuguese: despeitar (_noun _despeito)
Spanish: despechar (_noun _despecho)
Catalan: despitar (_noun _despit)​
_Expectar _in the languages of Iberia is a cultism. Or, at best, semicultism.


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## Nawaq

heterônimo said:


> Another interesting word is Fr. _entendre _and It_. intendere _which can both mean 'to understand' and 'to hear', unlike Sp./Pt. _entender _which can only mean 'to understand'.



I'm not sure if someone said it before but, as far as I know, _entendre_ in French only means "to hear", in the sense of "to understand" it's noted as dated, and I personally never heard it used this way before. 

Just my two cents.


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## heterônimo

Nawaq said:


> I'm not sure if someone said it before but, as far as I know, _entendre_ in French only means "to hear", in the sense of "to understand" it's noted as dated, and I personally never heard it used this way before.
> 
> Just my two cents.



You're right if you're thinking of _entendre _as a synonym of _comprendre,_ I was thinking more of a equivalent of 'to listen' (i.e. to understand with your ears). That said, it wasn't quite clear in my first manifestation and I need to rephrase myself:

Portuguese _entender _can mean 'to listen' and 'to understand', whereas French _entendre _can mean 'to hear' and 'to listen'.

It would be interesting to have a confirmation of the meaning(s) in the other Romance languages.


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## Olaszinhok

As for the Italian Language:
*intendere:* to comprehend, to understand, to grasp,  but the verbs *capire* and *comprendere* are much more common with this meaning.
The reflexive form *intendersi *means = to be an expert in; to know about; to be knowledgeable about sth.
Last but not least, a couple of pronominal verbs:
*intendersela, intendersene = *to know sth about, to make out with
*E Cerca di non intendertela con lei = *And try to not make out with her, please
Questa deve *intendersene* di musica = this chick must be, like, an expert in music.


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## Sardokan1.0

heterônimo said:


> It would be interesting to have a confirmation of the meaning(s) in the other Romance languages.



Like in French, in Sardinian the verb "Intendere" only means "to hear"

to hear = _intendere_
to listen to = _aiscultare_
to understand = _cumprendere
_
differences with Italian_ :_

_Intendere _in Italian can mean "to hear, to understand, to grasp"
_Sentire _in Italian means "to hear or to feel", while in Sardinian only "to feel"
_Capire _= to understand; is not present in Sardinian, totally replaced by "cumprendere"


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## Swatters

heterônimo said:


> whereas French _entendre _can mean 'to hear' and 'to listen'.



Not quite, "listen" is _écouter _(from lat. auscultāre), like pt. _escutar._



Olaszinhok said:


> As for the Italian Language:
> The reflexive form *intendersi *means = to be an expert in; to know about; to be knowledgeable about sth.



Fr. _s'entendre avec_, "to get along with", "to collude with".


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## Dymn

*Catalan*:

to understand - _entendre, comprendre_
to hear - _sentir_
to listen - _escoltar_

*Spanish*:

to understand - _entender, comprender_
to hear - _oír_
to listen - _escuchar_


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## Penyafort

*Capir *for understand and *oir *for hear also exist in Catalan. But they are never used.

Interesting how in Catalan and other languages in Iberia, as well as in Italy, _*sentir *_has the meaning of 'to hear', but in France, even in Occitan, it acquired the meaning of 'to smell'.

Which leads me to another difference. In Portuguese, Spanish and French, the same verb is used for 'to smell' when it is transitive and intransitive:

Portuguese: _O cachorro me *cheirou *de cima a baixo._
Spanish: _El perro me *olió *de arriba a abajo.
French: Le chien m'a senti de la tête aux pieds._

Portuguese: _Esta flor *cheira *muito bem._
Spanish: _Esta flor *huele *muy bien.
French: Cette fleur *sent *très bon._​
In Catalan, *olorar *is only transitive, and we need the *fer olor *construction for the intransitive:

_El gos em *va olorar* de dalt a baix.
Aquesta flor *fa* molt bona *olor*._​


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## Sardokan1.0

Penyafort said:


> Which leads me to another difference. In Portuguese, Spanish and French, the same verb is used for 'to smell' when it is transitive and intransitive:



In Italian in this case the verb is "odorare" or "annusare"; while Sardinian as usually is different from the other Romance languages; the verb for "to smell" is "fragare" or "fiagare", from Latin "flagrare" (to smell).


*Italian *:_ Il cane mi ha odorato / annusato dalla testa ai piedi_
*Sardinian *:_ Su cane m'hat fiagadu dae pes finzas a cùccuru*** (the dog has smelled me from feet to the top of the head)_

** *


Spoiler: *



the word "cùccuru" literally means "summit, top of the mountain" it's also used as synonymous of "top of the head"; similar to the Basque "kùkur" (summit); it's probably a residue of the pre-Roman language which was supposedly related to Basque.



*Italian *: _Questo fiore ha un buon profumo / odore_
*Sardinian *: _Custu fiore hat unu bonu profumu / fiagu****_

****


Spoiler: **



the word "fiagu" or "fragu" can mean both smell or scent, while the pejorative "fiaghera" or "fraghera" means "very bad smell"


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## Penyafort

Sardokan1.0 said:


> In Italian in this case the verb is "odorare" or "annusare"; while Sardinian as usually is different from the other Romance languages; the verb for "to smell" is "fragare" or "fiagare", from Latin "flagrare" (to smell).



Very interesting. I wasn't sure about Italian in this.

There is an equivalent in Catalan to that "fragare/fiagare". It's *flairar*, and the noun is *flaire*. It is less common than olorar and olor, though, and are more often used for pleasant odours.


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## heterônimo

Swatters said:


> Not quite, "listen" is _écouter _(from lat. auscultāre), like pt. _escutar._



I'm not suggesting that _écouter _isn't the best translation for 'to listen'. It is. Still, _entendre _*can *mean 'to listen'. Let's look the definition on the dictionary:


Larousse.fr: Entendre - '_Entendre volontairement quelqu'un, quelque chose_' ; '_Ecouter ce que quelqu'un a à dire_ [...]'

Wikitionnaire: Entendre - 'E_couter d'une oreille attentive_'

Wikitionary: Listen - 'To pay attention to a sound or speech'

Larousse.fr (Français-Anglais) - Entendre 1. to hear 2. to hear, to listen to [...]


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## aum34

Cheirar in Portuguese / Gallician comes from lat. FLAGRARE like in Sardinian. Typical evolution from lat. FL- , PL- > Ch- 

"...
_*' é preciso saber que o fl- inicial latino evoluiu para ch- em galego-português: foi o que aconteceu a flammam, que deu chama, e a flagrāre, origem de cheirar. Mas há ainda uma outra alteração fónica: -gr- latino passou a -ir- em galego-português, e é por isso que, assim como intĕgrum evoluiu para inteiro, o verbo flagrāre se tornou cheirar.'*_

in Ciberdúvidas da Língua Portuguesa, A etimologia da palavra cheirar - Ciberdúvidas da Língua Portuguesa [consultado em 27-08-2020]



In Spanish to smell is "Oler" from Latin " OLERE " which is also a synonim of Flagrare, meaning also in Latin "to smell".


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