# начинать versus начать ?



## englishman

Could someone explain how to use these two words, please ? 

I'm having difficulty understanding when it makes sense to use the verb "to begin" in an imperfective situation; for me, "to begin" expresses a "naturally perfective" concept. (And the same holds for кончать and кончить, in fact.). Is this a case where the imperfective verb is used when the present progressive is used in English ? e.g.

"I'm beginning to paint the house" requires начинать ?


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## Mr_Darcy

englishman said:


> "I'm beginning to paint the house" requires начинать ?


What other options do you see with this sentence, if not with начинать? 
It's always начинать in present (я начинаю, ты начинаешь, он начинает, etc.). Начать doesn't have present-tense forms (can't have them by definition). Differences are only possible in past or future.
The same general rule holds for начать/начинать as for all the other verbs, as far as I can judge not being a teacher of Russian as a foreign (or even native) language.

A couple of examples with past tense:

Я начинал в девять, теперь я начинаю восемь (I used to start at nine, I now start at eight).
Я начинал три раза, но так и не начал (I tried to start three times, but never actually started).


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## englishman

Mr_Darcy said:


> What other options do you see with this sentence, if not with начинать?


Good point. That wasn't one of my best examples  Let's forget about the present tense.



> The same general rule holds for начать/начинать as for all the other verbs, as far as I can judge not being a teacher of Russian as a foreign (or even native) language.


This doesn't really make sense to me. 

The concept of starting a process can only occur at a single instant in time; you have either started or not started, and in both cases the starting or not-starting are completed events => perfective verb makes most sense, and imperfective verb makes little sense,  no ?

"Starting" is a fundamentally different thing from say, "eating" or "reading", both of which can be incomplete; starting can not.



> A couple of examples with past tense:
> 
> Я начинал в девять, теперь я начинаю восемь (I used to start at nine, I now start at eight).


So this is the imperfective being used for repeated or habitual actions in the past ?



> Я начинал три раза, но так и не начал (I tried to start three times, but never actually started).


And this is the imperfective being used for an action that was attempted but did not succeed ?


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## Mr_Darcy

englishman said:


> The concept of starting a process can only occur at a single instant in time; you have either started or not started, and in both cases the starting or not-starting are completed events => perfective verb makes most sense, and imperfective verb makes little sense,  no ?



Well, why would you use present (past/future) progressive in English with the verb "start" then?



englishman said:


> "Starting" is a fundamentally different thing from say, "eating" or "reading", both of which can be incomplete; starting can not.


Yes and no. Starting _can_ be incomplete. Starting does not have to be instantaneous, it can also be a process (e.g. you can say: я начинаю/начинал понимать -- I am/was starting to understand). Plus, as you've pointed out, it can be a repeated/habitual action.



englishman said:


> So this is the imperfective being used for repeated or habitual actions in the past ?


Uh-huh.



englishman said:


> And this is the imperfective being used for an action that was attempted but did not succeed ?


Yes, just because you show that _you were in the process of starting_ for a while, but you never succeeded. Like, for example, when you try to start a car engine (although in Russian you will use the word заводить/завести for start in that case):
Я десять минут заводил машину, но так и не завел (I spent ten minutes trying to start the car, but without success).


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## englishman

Mr_Darcy said:


> Well, why would you use present (past/future) progressive in English with the verb "start" then?


Well, in fact, most of these are the future tense in disguise:

"I'm starting my new course today" = "I will start my new course today"

This is clearly a perfective use of "to start" which happens to look like an imperfective use, due to an anomaly of English.



> Yes and no. Starting _can_ be incomplete. Starting does not have to be instantaneous, it can also be a process (e.g. you can say: я начинаю/начинал понимать -- I am/was starting to understand).


This is a good point. "I am starting to understand" does indeed look like a genuine imperfective use of "to start". I shall have to think about this.



> Plus, as you've pointed out, it can be a repeated/habitual action.


Well, in this case, Russian uses the imperfective verb, but this feels to me like an additional use of aspect that has little to do with the idea of completion of an event. For example, if I say:

"When I was a child, I always ate fish on Friday"

then I guess we have to use the imperfective for "to eat" in Russian. However, this doesn't convey the idea of "incompleted" eating, since evey instance of the child eating fish was, in fact, completed. So it seems to me that Russian is essentially reusing a grammatical feature, aspect, to express an idea for which it is not particularly well suited (a repated series of completed events in the past).

Or maybe I'm just confused about aspect


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## Sobakus

The perfective/imperfective pairing can distingish not only the perfectiveness, which just happens to be the most frequent distinction.


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## Mr_Darcy

englishman said:


> Well, in this case, Russian uses the imperfective verb, but this feels to me like an additional use of aspect that has little to do with the idea of completion of an event. For example, if I say:
> 
> "When I was a child, I always ate fish on Friday"
> 
> then I guess we have to use the imperfective for "to eat" in Russian. However, this doesn't convey the idea of "incompleted" eating, since evey instance of the child eating fish was, in fact, completed.



Ah, so it's the name of the form that is confusing (совершенная/несовершенная *форма* -- it's actually the form that is perfective or imperfective, not the action behind the verb).

I'll use your example with Friday fish to try to explain.

We have an imperfective form for _eat_ -- есть.
We have an perfective form for _eat_ -- съесть.
But we also have an imperfective form for _eat_ that is sort of perfective in its meaning -- съедать. The notion of "съедение" is obviously perfective (отдать кого-либо на съедение львам -- you throw smb into a cage with lions so that the lions eat him/her, i.e. отдать львам, чтобы львы *съели*, а не просто ели-ели, жевали-жевали, подавились и выплюнули.), but if you want to say about a series of perfective actions, you need an imperfective form, in this case съедать, not съесть.

When I was a child, I always ate (up) the whole fish.
Когда я был ребёнком, я всегда съедал рыбу целиком.

Although you can probably say "ел" instead of "съедал," the latter is much more... I don't know which word to use. It's just better. It somehow conveys the picture of a _complete_ eating action (because it's perfective in meaning due to the "съ" prefix) in a repetitive cycle (because it's imperfective in form) better.


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## eni8ma

englishman said:


> Well, in this case, Russian uses the imperfective verb, but this feels to me like an additional use of aspect that has little to do with the idea of completion of an event. For example, if I say:
> 
> "When I was a child, I always ate fish on Friday"
> 
> then I guess we have to use the imperfective for "to eat" in Russian. However, this doesn't convey the idea of "incompleted" eating, since evey instance of the child eating fish was, in fact, completed.


Apparently, in Russian, the idea of "completed" is very tight.

*Perfective* aspect:
completed AND successfully AND only done once AND only in one direction.

*Imperfective* aspect:
not successful OR incomplete OR repeated/habitual OR more than one direction (and that's a tight definition, as well)

*Verbs of motion*
Imperfective *iterative*:
repeated actions of any kind, e.g. habits (like eating fish on Fridays)
more than one direction, e.g. I've been shopping (you went out then came back)

Imperfective *progressive*:
one direction only
incomplete *OR* completed, but _not successfully
_
See here for further explanation_.
_


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## englishman

Mr_Darcy said:


> Ah, so it's the name of the form that is confusing (совершенная/несовершенная *форма* -- it's actually the form that is perfective or imperfective, not the action behind the verb).


I don't understand what you mean by this.



> but if you want to say about a series of perfective actions, you need an imperfective form, in this case съедать, not съесть.
> 
> When I was a child, I always ate (up) the whole fish.
> Когда я был ребёнком, я всегда съедал рыбу целиком.


I had no idea that there was such a verb as съедать, but I'm not sure this is of any great significance. Surely this is a specific case with the verb "to eat" in Russian ? Presumably there isn't a "съначинать" verb form, or a "съписать" verb form, or something similar for every verb that exists ?


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## englishman

eni8ma said:


> Apparently, in Russian, the idea of "completed" is very tight.
> 
> *Perfective* aspect:
> completed AND successfully AND only done once AND only in one direction.


That sounds like a more useful general rule than the "special imperfective verb" approach suggested by Mr_Darcy. 

I guess in the general case, where no special verb like съедать exists, then we should use the standard imperfective verb for the case of repeated but completed actions in the past (if we follow the rule above) ?


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## rusita preciosa

englishman said:


> I don't understand what you mean by this.
> 
> I had no idea that there was such a verb as съедать, but I'm not sure this is of any great significance. Surely this is a specific case with the verb "to eat" in Russian ? Presumably there isn't a "съначинать" verb form, or a "съписать" verb form, or something similar for every verb that exists ?


I'm not sure what you mean by "great significance", but I would not worry about this analogy with *есть/eat.* 
*Cъесть* is not technically the perfective of *есть.*
The prefective/imperfective forms work like this:
есть /едать (едать is an old-fashioned word but still in use)
съесть / съедать

There is a number of different verbs that are formed by "prefix + есть", each with their perfective/imperfective pair: выесть / выeдать; проесть / проедать; заесть / заедать...


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## rusita preciosa

Just wanted to clarify that, although gramatically *cъесть* is not the perfective of *есть,* semantically it is. 
_Я неделю *ел* этот суп, но так и не *съел*._

I just wanted to address your attempt to find pairs where the perfective is formed with the prefix "c". They do not exist grammatically.


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## englishman

rusita preciosa said:


> Just wanted to clarify that, although gramatically *cъесть* is not the perfective of *есть,* semantically it is.
> _Я неделю *ел* этот суп, но так и не *съел*._


So съесть  is an imperfective verb which is used as the perfective pair of есть, although, in fact, it is the imperfective pair of съедать ?

That all seems to make sense then 



> I just wanted to address your attempt to find pairs where the perfective is formed with the prefix "c". They do not exist grammatically.


I suspected that was the case.


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## morzh

rusita preciosa said:


> Just wanted to clarify that, although gramatically *cъесть* is not the perfective of *есть,* semantically it is.
> _Я неделю *ел* этот суп, но так и не *съел*._



It is grammatically perfect form of "съедать". That is, it is perfect.
From your statement, I believe, Englishman derived the conclusion it is not perfect form at all. It is.



Толковый словарь Ефремовой On-Line
 
*Значение слова «съесть»*

_*сов*. перех._ 

см. съедать.



Не путать со "съедать"

*Значение слова «съедать»*

*Ударение:* съеда́ть
_*несов.* перех._



Поглощать пищу.
перен. разг. Расходовать на еду.


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## rusita preciosa

englishman said:


> So съесть is an imperfective verb which is used as the perfective pair of есть, although, in fact, it is the imperfective pair of съедать ?
> 
> That all seems to make sense then


Well, it is what it is. You just need to memorize some things. Sometimes usage, not "common sense" dictates the meaning.
(Why do we park in driveways and drive in parkways)?


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## Sobakus

englishman said:


> I don't understand what you mean by this.



*Mr_Darcy* meant that it's the grammatical category that perfectiveness signifies, not the verb's sematical meaning in every particular case. The category of perfectness can convey different meanings that *eni8ma* gave a nice list of. If the verb is imperfective, the action might not be.


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## Ben Jamin

rusita preciosa said:


> Just wanted to clarify that, although gramatically *cъесть* is not the perfective of *есть,* semantically it is.
> _Я неделю *ел* этот суп, но так и не *съел*. _


 
I would like to make a comment that (I believe) applies to all Slavic languages not only Russian:
The perfective and imperfective verbs are separate lexical items, not two inflected forms of one verb.

You do not *inflect verbs by aspect*. 

Most perfective verbs have at least a little different meaning then their imperfective "counterparts".
There are significantly many more perfective than imperfective verbs, forming actually not "pairs" but "nests" with one imperfective verb serving many perfective ones to form present tense.


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## Mr_Darcy

Sobakus said:


> *Mr_Darcy* meant that it's the grammatical category that perfectiveness signifies, not the verb's sematical meaning in every particular case. The category of perfectness can convey different meanings that *eni8ma* gave a nice list of. If the verb is imperfective, the action might not be.


Exactly. Thanks a lot.


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## Uly

I have observed one critical point that no-one has touched upon, especially in light of the first pair of verbs in question: начинать/начать. The perfective addresses not just the end of an action, but also the beginning, as in *она попела* _she started singing _or _broke into song. _I read somewhere that the logic behind this lies in regarding acts as processes, of which the perfective refers to either the beginning or the end, as well as to the entire process once completed. It went on to say that in some cases the perfective, as in this example, conveys that "she successfully completed the starting phase of singing, without referencing the end of the act." Correct me if I'm wrong. Great thread!


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## rusita preciosa

Uly said:


> I have observed one critical point that no-one has touched upon, especially in light of the first pair of verbs in question: начинать/начать. The perfective addresses not just the end of an action, but also the beginning, as in *она попела* _she started singing _or _broke into song. _I read somewhere that the logic behind this lies in regarding acts as processes, of which the perfective refers to either the beginning or the end, as well as to the entire process once completed. It went on to say that in some cases the perfective, as in this example, conveys that "she successfully completed the starting phase of singing, without referencing the end of the act." Correct me if I'm wrong. Great thread!


You are right, but this is not a universal rule, e.g. the example with *она попела* does not work; as the matter of fact, it does not work for most of the verbs. *Oна попела* would be "she sang a bit and stoped".
*Oна пошла,* however,would work as an example in some contexts: she successfully completed the starting phase of walking".


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## Syline

*Uly*, maybe you meant "она запела" instead of "она попела"?


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## Uly

Thank you, Rusita, for your explanation. Perhaps a better example would have been *Я засмеялся.* - _I began to laugh_. (beginning of an action).

I found this online:
Russian _perfective verbs_ usually express the completion of an action or the termination of a state. Certain perfective verbs reflect different nuances of an action: they may indicate the beginning of an action or a state, or describe an a single, instantaneous action or a state, one suddenly begun and suddenly ended.
*Я прочитал эту книгу.* - I have read (and finished) this book. (the completion of an action)

*Я засмеялся.* - I began to lough. (beginning of an action).

*Я крикнул.* - I gave a shout. (instantaneous action)


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## Uly

@ Syline: perhaps that was it - I was working from memory


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