# Zwiebelfisch



## enzodava

Hi everybody!

I hope I'm not violating any rules here, but I came across something that is right up our alley. Maybe many of you have already seen it. It's a weekly column at Spiegel-Online called Zwiebelfisch that addresses questions of German grammar and syntax. If any of you read the New York Times Sunday Magazine, this column is much like Wiliam Safire's "On Language" column. To find it, go to Spiegel's site (I'm still too new to include the link). On the Kultur-Ressort's main page, click the tab at the top of the page called "Zwiebelfisch." Enjoy!

--enzo


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## Whodunit

This is a very good site for advanced learners, I think. I like this one best.


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## Whodunit

Advanced learners should also try this: http://www1.spiegel.de/active/zwiebelfischquiz/fcgi/zwiebelfischquiz.fcgi?f=M%21+B%27%28%3A%23C%25


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## jorge_val_ribera

Yes, that's a very interesting column. I bought the book ("Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod") when I was in Germany and have come back to the site regularly. You can learn a lot there. I've learned, for example, how do you write "E-Mail", that you shouldn't write "kriegen" and "schmeißen" in formal writings, that you shouldn't say "das macht Sinn" and a lot more... Definitely recommended!


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## Whodunit

jorge_val_ribera said:
			
		

> that you shouldn't say "das macht Sinn"



Why not?


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## jorge_val_ribera

Er meint, das sei kein gutes Deutsch, sondern eher Denglisch (aus dem Englischen "that makes sense") und dass man andere Sätze wie "Das ist sinvoll", "Das ergibt einen Sinn", "Das hat einen Sinn" und "Ich sehe einen Sinn darin" verwenden sollte.


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## elroy

jorge_val_ribera said:
			
		

> Yes, that's a very interesting column. I bought the book ("Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod") when I was in Germany and have come back to the site regularly. You can learn a lot there. I've learned, for example, how do you write "E-Mail", that you shouldn't write "kriegen" and "schmeißen" in formal writings, that you shouldn't say "das macht Sinn" and a lot more... Definitely recommended!



So would you recommend buying "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod"?  I've been considering buying it but wasn't sure whether it was worth it...


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## enzodava

elroy,

I'd recommend it. It's a very informative and entertaining read.  Here's something that might make you more comfortable with the decision. Go check out the columns that exist on the Spiegel-Online's site already. They will give you an idea of the topics and of the style. And, to be quite honest, you might just decide to stick with the web site; the book is really a compilation of some columns that have appeared in the past. (I'm old school--I like the paper.) Either way, the author is worth reading.

-enzo


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Why not?


I have the same question.

"das macht Spaß"
"das macht nichts"

The use of "das macht" itself is so idiomatic, and "das macht Sinn" is so common! Hmm.


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## Jana337

Jetzt bin ich auch verfischt und zugezwiebelt. Die Kolumne ist wunderbar! Enzodava, vielen Dank.

Kennt jemand vielleicht andere Sprachkolumnen?

Jana


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## Jana337

jorge_val_ribera said:
			
		

> ... that you shouldn't say "das macht Sinn" ...



This is what I have found so far:

 					Welche der folgenden Aussagen ist nicht deutschen Ursprungs, sondern entstand durch Übersetzung aus dem Englischen?
*


a.) Das ist sinnvoll.
b.) Das macht Sinn.
c.) Das hat einen Sinn.
*b) is correct.

But that does not have to mean that you shouldn't say it IMHO. Is there possibly a whole column devoted to it?

Jana


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## Jana337

I wanted to edit the previous post but it cannot be done because of a bug that is not yet under Mike's control.

When you click on the answer, this is what you get:

Antwort b (Das macht Sinn), aus dem Englischen "That makes sense". Die bessere Wahl im Deutschen sind die Antworten a und c: "Das ist sinnvoll" oder "Das hat einen Sinn".

Jana


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I wanted to edit the previous post but it cannot be done because of a bug that is not yet under Mike's control.



What bug? I didn't see any.


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I have the same question.
> 
> "das macht Spaß"
> "das macht nichts"
> 
> The use of "das macht" itself is so idiomatic, and "das macht Sinn" is so common! Hmm.



Yes, you're completely right. And IMHO, the usage of "Das macht Sinn" is 99 %    correct.


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## Jana337

Whodunit said:
			
		

> What bug? I didn't see any.



Here is a complete description.
In short, posts with bullet points cannot sometimes be edited.

Jana


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Here is a complete description.
> In short, posts with bullet points cannot sometimes be edited.
> 
> Jana



I'm afraid I haven't read yet your post in the C&S forum, but I also wanted to know WHAT did you want to edit?


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## Jana337

I wanted to add what now is post 12 to post 11 because I was partly refuted by the new information.

Jana


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## Whodunit

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I wanted to add what now is post 12 to post 11 because I was partly refuted by the new information.
> 
> Jana



Ah ok. Thanks for clear this up. Now I'm content.


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## jorge_val_ribera

Hallo!

Also, ja, es gibt eine Kolumne vom Zwiebelfisch, wo er erklärt, wieso "das macht Sinn" falsches Deutsch ist. Ich habe die Internetadresse, aber ich kann sie nicht schreiben! (Kann mir jemand helfen? Wie tu ich es?) Es ist aber nicht die Spiegel-Online Webseite. Das Problem ist, dass man nun bezahlen muss, wenn man den Artikel lesen will. Ich nehme an, dass sie wollen, dass man das Buch kauft und die Kolumnen im Internet nicht liest. Na, Geschäft ist Geschäft! Das ist übrigens ein Grund dafür, das Buch zu kaufen...man kann viele von den Kolumnen nicht umsonst lesen.


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## Jana337

jorge_val_ribera said:
			
		

> Hallo!
> 
> Ich habe die Internetadresse, aber ich kann sie nicht schreiben! (Kann mir jemand helfen? Wie tu ich es?)



Ganz einfach: Du musst jetzt noch 4 Beiträge schreiben, dann wirst du zum Mitglied (jetzt bist du ein Juniormitglied) mit dem Recht, Links zu veröffentlichen.

Falls du die Kolumne gelesen hast, könntest du uns kurz erklären, warum die Redewendung falsches Deutsch ist?

Jana


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## jorge_val_ribera

Ach sooo! Vielen Dank, Jana! 

Ich bin schon ein "Member"! Cool! Es fühlt sich gut, aufzuwachsen! 

Also, jetzt zu dem Wichtigen...hier ist die Webseite: http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/thread-view.asp?threadid=946&posts=3

Was denkt ihr darüber?


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## Jana337

Also, ich bin fast überzeugt. Jedenfalls werde ich mich bemühen, auch ohne "das macht Sinn" zurechtzukommen.

Und TranslatorsCafé ist eine hochinteressante Webseite, vielen Dank für den Link!

Jana


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## Whodunit

jorge_val_ribera said:
			
		

> Ach sooo! Vielen Dank, Jana!
> 
> Ich bin schon ein "Member"! Cool! Es fühlt sich gut *an*, aufzu wachsen!
> 
> Also, jetzt zu dem Wichtigen...hier ist die Webseite: http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/thread-view.asp?threadid=946&posts=3
> 
> Was denkt ihr darüber?



Ich finde diese Seite auch äußerst cool, denn ich hätte nie gedacht oder erwägt, so falsches Deutsch zu sprechen. Aber wie sieht es dann mit

das macht Spaß (Spaß wird dabei hersgestellt?)
das macht nichts (nichts wird hergestellt?)
das macht krank (davor stellt man den Zustand "krank" her?)

aus?`

Ich würde echt schätzen, eine Antwort darauf zu kriegen.
(I'd really appreciate it getting a reply to that [topic].)


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## ayupshiplad

Hi all,

I just got this book from my German assistant which is BRILLIANT but was wondering is Zwiebelfisch actually meant anything? What I mean is, does it have an actual significance or is it just 'onion fish'?!


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## Henryk

Look at the foreword in the first book. 

Or just look here.


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## Bonjules

Hi,

I don't have the book, but looking aty the Wiki article I wonder
if this is the origin of the exclamation  'Fish!!' for some error
or mishap.
saludos


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## gaer

I never knew about any of this. Very interesting.

It reminds me of "clam", which is a term musicians use for "sour" (wrong) notes that happen by accident.


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## Bonjules

gaer said:


> I never knew about any of this. Very interesting.
> 
> It reminds me of "clam", which is a term musicians use for "sour" (wrong) notes that happen by accident.


 
Well, Gaer, maybe we could conclude then that seafood in general
doesn't have a great reputation in the popular perception (probably since it spoils so easily).
'The fish rots from the head down'


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## gaer

Bonjules said:


> Well, Gaer, maybe we could conclude then that seafood in general
> doesn't have a great reputation in the popular perception (probably since it spoils so easily).
> 'The fish rots from the head down'


I always thought the name "Zwiebelfisch" has something "fishy" about it.


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