# Bullfighting Opinion - Just for English native speakers



## diyer

I need your help in order to get an opinion about Bullfighting. It has to be a short comment, as if you were being interviewed at this very moment. Don't think of it so much, just write down the first thing that comes to your mind.

I'm trying to help my daugther in a task.

Thanks so much.


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## dave

A few vox pops for your daughter:

"Barbaric! How can people enjoy the suffering of the bull - they must be sick."

"It should be banned, along with fox-hunting and hare-coursing."

"How can you call it a sport? - it's just cruel."

"It's an art form, isn't it? The theatre of the event is just wonderful."

Is that enough for now?


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## Rob625

I wouldn't like to take part, but I would probably be interested to watch; and I don't see why anyone should stop me.


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## Tormenta

I so want to say what I think about bullfighting.  But I am not a native English speaking ; therefore, I shall remain  silent.   

Tormenta


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## VenusEnvy

Oh, do tell!


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## semiller

The first words that come to mind when considering bullfighting are clowns, horns, and running.


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## jacinta

I saw a bullfight in Madrid and I almost threw up, it was so physically brutal.  After the first fight, I got a little used to it.  I will never go to another.  I've had my cultural education!


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## diyer

Thanks so much for your opinion. The thing why only English native speakers are asked is that my daugther and the other students are been asked for a "trabajo de campo" (I'm sorry for using this but don't know how to say it in English), and they are only interested in Anglosaxon's explanations, I don't know why.

They are studying teaching at university, so I think it is a serious task.  

Be free to say what you want. I'm not a supporter of bullfighting as many people in Spain, in fact it is seen right now as an anachronistic fact. Nobody considers bullfighting a sport but a kind of primary human fight against their fears or something like that.  

It looks good in pictures but the real thing is brutal and useless.   

For all of you don't want to say anything, thanks anyway.


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## Artrella

Tormenta said:
			
		

> I so want to say what I think about bullfighting.  But I am not a native English speaking ; therefore, I shall remain  silent.
> 
> Tormenta




I agree with you T! But as a non-English speaker "NO COMMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!"
      I don't want to say sth that perhaps  would be taken as a *red rag to a bull * !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Art (although my Dad is a Spaniard)


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## cuchuflete

diyer said:
			
		

> Thanks so much for your opinion. The thing why only English native speakers are asked is that my daugther and the other students are been asked for a "trabajo de campo" (I'm sorry for using this but don't know how to say it in English), and they are only interested in Anglosaxon's explanations, I don't know why.
> 
> They are studying teaching at university, so I think it is a serious task.
> 
> Be free to say what you want. I'm not a supporter of bullfighting as many people in Spain, in fact it is seen right now as an anachronistic fact. Nobody considers bullfighting a sport but a kind of primary human fight against their fears or something like that.
> 
> It looks good in pictures but the real thing is brutal and useless.
> 
> For all of you don't want to say anything, thanks anyway.



It's a difficult thing to define.

It's not a sport, and yet it requires great athletic skill.  It's not art, but has artistic elements.  The cruelty and pain and risk are shared, however unequally,  among the two and four-footed participants.
I would call it a "rite" left over from ancient times.
That's all about Spanish bullfighting.
In Portugal I used to go to Campo Pequeno for the Thursday night 'bullfights', and that was a combination of comedy and beautiful horsemanship.  Totally distinct from the Spanish variety.

Good luck to the kids and their project,
Cuchu


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## Richie

cruel
torture
barberic

Why only navitive speakers of english? I dont understand.
I think you hurt some feelings with that statement.


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## anime_girl

Bullfighting is sick. Hurting any animal for entertainment is cruel. I believe it should be banned even though it is part of Spanish culture just because it is so inhumane. Not many things really get me angry but Bullfighting is one of them along withfox hunting and most issues concerning animal welfare.


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## ishatar

In defence of bullfighting:

1/ We kill much more cows on a daily basis in the butcheries (and in a much more cowardly way).
2/ Wars get me a thousand times more angry.

But two negatives don't make a positive and I'm not a native English speaker.

PS: Nothing, but I love Post Scriptums.


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## quehuong

I'm not a native English speaker, but I studied Spanish in high school with my American friends some of whom didn't like bullfighting, some of whom didn't care either way, and some of whom enjoyed it.


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## lercarafridi

> "trabajo de campo" (I'm sorry for using this but don't know how to say it in English),




 practice lessons: fieldwork


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## stelle_cadente

ishatar said:
			
		

> In defence of bullfighting:
> 
> 1/ We kill much more cows on a daily basis in the butcheries (and in a much more cowardly way).
> 2/ Wars get me a thousand times more angry.
> 
> But two negatives don't make a positive and I'm not a native English speaker.
> 
> PS: Nothing, but I love Post Scriptums.



Touche'    That reply made me smile.

As a native English speaker, I would just say that I don't understand it.  I don't understand how people in Africa can eat bugs, I don't understand how people in America can eat cows (I am a vegetarian), and I don't understand what people in Spain "see" in bull fighting.  Just because I don't understand something, however, doesn't mean it's necessarily "wrong" in a moral sense.

Stelle cadente

P.S.  What do native French speakers think of the American/ English use of "touche'" (I don't even know how to spell it...) to mean "hey--good point--you got me there?"  Would a French speaker understand what I was getting at?  Sorry to end a sentence with a preposition...  Gosh, I haven't thought this deeply about my English in years!


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## CrazyFroggy

"touch*é*" may be !
= "bingo"


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## diyer

Thanks so much for your implication in the topic. I agree with most of you, and most of spaniards too. Some day will dissapear. Just tell you that in many places in Spain bullfighting is being forbidden.

Thanks Lercarafridi "compatriota" for your remark on fieldwork, I'll never forget.

I'm so sorry for "_just for English native speakers_", but it had to be that way, I don't know why. I've said my daughter that this site is a good place for speaking with other people about what everyone wants, even controversial issues.

*Many thanks again*.


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## fleuriste-du-mal

Guess I'm late but here's my thought anyway: if a matador wanted to take to the corrida with a bull one-on-one (nobody distracting the bull for him) and unarmed (except for the teeth and nails God gave him), I'd say that's a sport and be all for it.

As it stands, it's a sad display of impotance. Still at least in Spain they're contented with a bull. Sometimes it seems the US won't be happy till it brings down the whole planet.

PS - Diyer, the quote you give from Lao-Tse is so elegant I'm forced to believe he didn't really mean it.

PPS - Ishatar, shouldn't the plural be 'postscripta" ?


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## quehuong

Fleuriste,

*Las palabras elegantes no son sinceras; las palabras sinceras no son elegantes.  Lao Tzi* 



> ...the quote...from Lao-Tse is so elegant I'm forced to believe he didn't really mean it.



Why?


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## cuchuflete

anime_girl said:
			
		

> Bullfighting is sick. Hurting any animal for entertainment is cruel. I believe it should be banned even though it is part of Spanish culture just because it is so inhumane. Not many things really get me angry but Bullfighting is one of them along withfox hunting and most issues concerning animal welfare.



Anime Girl,

I can empathize with your objections to hurting and killing animals for 'sport' or entertainment.  I cannot be even a little bit tolerant of your attitude towards banning what you yourself have declared to be "a part of Spanish culture."  I don't think any one of us has sufficient moral high ground to advocate banning an aspect of a culture that is not our own.

What you espouse is frighteningly similar to George W. Bush in his efforts to export supposedly American values to Iraq:  Do it my way or I'll send in the troops.

Whether you and I may like or dissaprove of bullfighting is not relevant.  We are just not that important.  The Spaniards will manage the evolution of their own culture quite well without our dictates.

Not to beat a dead horse, but would you advocate the banning of the sale of alcohol in your nation within, say, 24 hours of a football match?  

Now, if I may step down from the soap box, I do invite you to arrange the banning of the sale of assault weapons by and to my compatriots.  That's for protection of the animal rights of the two-footed.

I await your reply with interest.

saludos,
Cuchu


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## Tormenta

anime_girl said:
			
		

> Bullfighting is sick. Hurting any animal for entertainment is cruel. I believe* it should be banned even though it is part of Spanish culture *just because it is so inhumane. Not many things really get me angry but Bullfighting is one of them along withfox hunting and most issues concerning animal welfare.




Anime girl,


Lucky you that there are only a few things that get you angry, there are so many that make me angry, and that includes people who are self-righteous.


I personally find bullfighting brutal, unnecessary, and it is something that I do not support in anyway. Yes, I would like it to stop; however, to say that it should be banned from Spanish culture is taking this issue a bit too far.  Let Spaniards decide what they want to ban from their culture, let them decide what they want to keep as well.

Also, I have noticed that several people  used the word "barbaric" .  Does it imply that Spaniards are barbarians? Or maybe the ones who support bullfighting are?

"Barbaric" , what an interesting word!  
Drive by shooting is barbaric, the number of teenagers who get shot on the streets every year is barbaric, the number of women and kids who die because of domestic violence is barbaric, football fans getting drunk and violent after each football match is barbaric, street kids is barbaric, some countries being allowed to bomb another country just because they can is, in deed,  barbaric.

How is deer shooting less barbaric? Because it is a clean shot?  How is fox hunting less barbaric?  Because is royal?

So, bullfighting might be barbaric, but before we tell anyone to ban anything from their culture, lets look at our own culture and see how "well" we are doing. 
I do not support bullfighting in anyway, but to tell Spaniards what to ban from their culture is totally out of order. I think it is about time we wake up and stop trying to fix other cultures, specially when our own is so far away for being perfect. 



Respectfully,

Tormenta


PS.  I know, I know, for native English speakers only.  Well, since I already typed it , I might just leave it right there .


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## Cal

As something of a cowpoke myself, I have to laugh at the Spaniard who poses ready with his knife to kill an animal that has been tormented and exhausted into offering the least resistance, and calls it bravery. Imagine the deep down shame he and his supportive spectators in the stadium must feel for not having anything to be brave toward in their lives.

Mr. Quixote running around being brave against windmills, and so many Spaniards looking up to fellow Spaniards being ¿brave? against maimed bulls. Haughty, arrogant-without-cause girlie-men, except to conceal their cowardice... I'm bustin' a gut.

Evolve?, Cuchu, what an excuse to give the practice of bull(it-ain't-fighting). They ain't evolving, they won't ever evolve until they do something actually brave against another brave people. Impotence is a good word for their sorry behinds.
Morality? what's that got to do with it? I don't think it morally wrong to behave like that bullfighter, I consider it silly, self-delusional, frightened-of-real life. A psychotic is not immoral. He just is. I considerate silly and self-delusional to eat all the fast food in the world, and then to believe you're exercising your freedom of choice by it-- not immoral... But I ain't sending the National Guard to arrest or bomb them drive-through drivers, just like we ain't sending troops to Spain. We ain't exporting nothing like that to Spain. But we are booing the matador and throwing tomatoes (sorry Anime) from our stands here. (By the way, I ain't no-way-hows a supporter of Sr. Arbusto. He'll be vacating the Big Casa by Wednesday).
"Art and skill" (I'm bustin' on that one): I suppose disemboweling and then quartering a condemn person takes art and skill.

(Sorry, *Diyer*, your daughter wasn't expecting this from everybody.)

As for "what do they see in bullfighting"-- they see a pretend courage. Also, Anime, I don't see how people can eat them poor little vegetables. You know they scream when they're stems are cut or pulled from the roots. So you're just as bad. Just because the don't have eyes looking up at you doesn't mean you don't behave in your own self-gratifying interest toward them.

Yes, and fox-hunting is just as cowardly, from another impotent class of people just as removed from the reality of life as those who kill bulls.

*Semiller*, you're right about "clowns".


When we kill our cows, we do it to eat them. Sorry, *Ishtar*, we don't do it to display courage, so the issue of cowardliness does not fly here. I may as well be cowardly because I move the coals in my campfire with my hands and not with a long stick.

Time I get down off my horse, and it ain't a high one neither.

Laotze, I love his stuff. But he's pointing at himself on that one. Joke's on us for being taken in by the elegance of his quote.

Cambiando de tema: mi intensión era participar en el foro con el propósito de mejorarme el español. Así que no se sientan y disculpen mi primer incursión en el foro. No tenía ni idea de que "English Speaker Only" (cuál entrada mejor para introducirme, pensé yo) que se trataría de temas culturales.


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## cuchuflete

Bienvenido Cal,

I think I'm going to enjoy, and learn from, our arguments.  Yes I'm sure we shall have many.

I wonder if your diatribe against Spaniards' courage, bull-fighting _et alia_ is informed by your attendence at many corridas, your in-depth study of the history of the rite, in southern France as well as the Iberian Peninsula, or your extended stays in Spain?  I am wondering aloud, because of the many Spanish friends I have who displayed great courage in struggling for liberty under a dictatorship.  These are not a cowardly or timid bunch of 'girlie men'.  To give the men and women of Spain their due, consider that millions fought bravely for years for what they believed in, and I include those on both sides from 1936 to 1939.   

What are your thoughts about the millions of 'girlie men' who spend their Sundays getting 'faced and stuffing their ample guts with edible crap, while they watch gladiators in skin-tight (the better to display their bulging bellies and fat asses?) costumes collide on the sanctified fields of the NFL?  Are they a courageous race?

You have felt free to share your opinions on culture, so please enlighten me about the Budweiser/NASCAR sub-genre. From my limited experience at auto races, most people seem to go in anticipation of the excitement of a crash.

If you don't think it takes guts to get in a ring with a bull, for whatever motives, I can only guess that you've yet to try it.  Even after the picadores have done their job, the animal is still deadly, as many a bullfighter has learned.   As to your personal opinions about the art and skill displayed in the event, let's just agree to disagree.

Saludos,
Cuchufléte


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## Classic

In my view it is a legitmate and classic sport.

Yes, it is brutal but so is real life. 

These animals have it in their blood to attack and injure. If you will it is a code they live and die by. If left to themselves they would attack and mortally wound each other. 

The drama of a bullfight can teach us so many lessons about bravery, risk taking, discipline.


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## David

It´s not the killing that´s bad, it´s the foreplay!

Killing a bull doesn´t bother me particuarly; I raise a few steers and they are slaughtered for meat. But the torturing of the animal in order to get it enraged seems cruel and a little pointless. The gymnastics and pageantry of the corrida are wonderful, but there are sports that don´t require torturing some poor dumb beast.


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## DDT

As I already happened to be writing in another post, "I'm getting more and more fed up with prejudice and whatever. Is it strictly compulsory to keep on offending people being part of a friendly cultural forum?"
Who on earth (I'm being polite for it's part of my cultural background, yet I confess I'm making a strong effort in order to) are you people wanting to ban something from a culture (which moreover is not yours, your words betray the fact you even have a very scarce knowledge of it)???



			
				Cal said:
			
		

> We ain't exporting nothing like that to Spain.



As far as you're concerned you are already exporting your forwardness, Cal. And I can make you sure you're offering me more than one argument to attack you and knock you down. There's no need, you already proved your cultural indigence...that would be too easy.



			
				Cal said:
			
		

> *Semiller*, you're right about "clowns".



No wonder you agree with someone whose tone is (too) often susceptible of offending people: how dare you calling clowns people being engaged in a competition which implies bravery and is part of a very ancient tradition?
Personally I find bullfighting a cruel sport, but I DO RESPECT TRADITIONS, because I DO RESPECT, that's all.

DDT


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## DDT

Diyer, sorry for posting in your "Just for English native speakers" thread, but I'd like to invite people to reconsider the aim of this interesting cultural forum which should be hopefully led by RESPECT.

DDT


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## Artrella

I don't want to interfere with any country's culture.  However, I agree with Anime-Girl.  Is killing after having tortured a poor animal something to be set as an example?  Aren't we denigrating in that way life?  To kill for entertaiment: that's what we teach our children...then don't be so hypocrite when we say NO to wars.  We are telling them...in some cases it's all right to torture and to kill...because we have a very good time looking an animal suffer terribly!  In some cases it's all right to kill...
And then we criticize Romans when they sent poor Christians to be eaten by lions... or in England the fox hunting or another entertainment where a bear was devoured to death by dogs...
I am convinced that this "shows" HAVE TO BE BANNED.  Culture is culture, but bullfighting is brutality, it's in the end KILLING.  Culture = Killing??????
No people, don't let yourselves be deceived like that!!!!!
Art


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## quehuong

I think Mr. Diyer's children are collecting the honest opinions of bullfighting.


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## lercarafridi

> Thanks Lercarafridi "compatriota" for your remark on fieldwork, I'll never forget.



You are welcome. I trust it helped you out.
On the other hand, even though I can see your point it addressing just native English speakers (in order to check what they feel like when witnessing bullfighting as a confrontation between a beast and a man) I truly believe Spaniards´ opinions are slightly more relevant –no offence intended-, as foreigners can barely appreciate the cultural issue beating behind it.


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## ishatar

Hello Diyer, I think you won't mind my joining the talks again, given that you already had plenty of native English speakers' opinions and I think anyone should now feel free to part-take. If you do mind, then I apologise in advance. 



			
				Cal said:
			
		

> When we kill our cows, we do it to eat them. Sorry, Ishtar , we don't do it to display courage, so the issue of cowardliness does not fly here. I may as well be cowardly because I move the coals in my campfire with my hands and not with a long stick.



That's Ish*a*tar, there is no reason for you to downsize my pen name! And you don't need to be sorry for me either, you know: despite the apparences my opinion is pleasant to have. 
Yes the cowardliness issue is irrelevant. The implicit message behind my remark was: if you're going to make moral judgements on la corrida, then you should also make moral judgements on the butcheries. Else, if you find that there is nothing wrong with killing so many cows everyday, then killing a few bulls from time to time shouldn't be an issue either. Given that you are able to compare killing cows by herds with moving the coals in your campfire, my point is definetely made: nobody cares safe for the vegetarians.



			
				Cal said:
			
		

> Imagine the deep down shame he and his supportive spectators in the stadium must feel for not having anything to be brave toward in their lives.



Something that really pisses me off is generalisation. Not all generalisations, mind you: I don't think it is bad to believe that every dog has four paws and a tail, even though nobody has seen every dogs that existed, exist and will exist on planet earth. But in general, I dislike generalisations towards any group of human beings.

According to Cal's law,

a = someone
If a(job) = torrero
then a(object of bravery in life) = 0

plus,
b = someone else
if b(idol(job)) = torrero
then b(object of bravery in life) = 0

therefore,
c = one more person
if c(object of bravery in life) = peace in the Middle-East
but c(idol(job)) = torrero
then c(object of bravery in life) = 0
therefore,
peace in the Middle-East = 0

A bit surprising, innit?


Now, how about this:
I think corrida aficionados aren't any different than comic fans or soccer team fans, or, for that matter, anyone who simply admires someone else, even if they do it only five minutes in their life. Like everyone, they have certain parts of their life they handle pretty well and other parts they don't. So when they see their favourites heroes achieve something, they are reminded that fundamentaly, mankind is a creative species when it comes to solving problems and overcoming difficulties. Some of them will leave the stadium/arena wondering "hey, how can I gather the same courage when I want to..." Others will simply think "how good s/he is" and forget it.

As for the torreros, it's possible that SOME of them have nothing in their life but la corrida. If so, they already have plenty of qualities that they simply should invest in some other parts of their lifes: the ability to make the desire to win stronger than the fear to lose, self-control, concentration, reflexes, capacity to improvise solutions in emergency situations. That's quite something.



			
				Cal said:
			
		

> I consider it silly, self-delusional, frightened-of-real life.



I would very much like to know your view about people who see films, watch television, admire work of art, etc. Aren't they also in an illusion when they do those activities? Do you put them in the same bag?


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## diyer

Talking to Spaniards about the topic you may heard two main arguments. I must say though most people don't care for it, surely because bullfighting is about to disappear. It's not simply taken into account.

Who agree
  - it's real, it's true. They assume that is real life, there's no lies.
  - bulls don't any longer survive if bullfighting wouldn't exist. Bulls are only produced 
    (we could say manufactured) for bullfighting.
  - much more silly things in order to justify it.

Who disagree
  - all what we have read in this thread and even more.

But I think many conceptions are being mixed. It's so difficult to explain but I'll try.

If you watch a corrida as just a show, the real thing is that it seems to be a cruel scenery; blood, etc. So long ago a few people used to show their courage fighting against a bull because society rewarded, useless to say the rich didn't show their courage that way, just because was so dangerous. From the bullfighter point of view, it was a way to change his fate. What they could think should be something like this "I have an option between two realities. A slow death in life or a shift glorious death".

It's obvious that today is anachronic but not useless. The courage is already appreciated in our society, in the whole world. It's hard to understand but people value bravery more than other values, they may be crazy assholes (there are a few examples everyone knows). That is the main reason for what there are still bullfighters. In fact, that ancient reason for playing their life, it's rightful nowdays. We haven't changed too much.
I'm convinced everyting we do in life is for getting respect and love (love is involved in this, I mean sex).

I admit almost everything except that a bullfighter is a clown. Who say that hasn't seen a bull. A bull is not a big dog. I recognize the courage. I wouldn't do that. Bullfighters die or are seriously wounded from time to time because of it.

To sum up, I'd like bullfighting to be banned, but think it is not going to be necessary because it is about to disappear, just because young people don't have any interest in it.

Saludos


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## Silvia

Now, after the storm, I would like to say a couple of things myself.   

Dave, your comments were perfect   



			
				Tormenta said:
			
		

> But I am not a native English speaking


 ... a native English *speaker*
Anyway, Tormenta, you took the right decision   

Semiller made an association of words, he never said toreros are clowns.



			
				jacinta said:
			
		

> I saw a bullfight in Madrid and I almost threw up, it was so physically brutal. After the first fight, I got a little used to it. I will never go to another. I've had my cultural education!


Sad to say, some things survive just because of tourism and as long as there are tourists willing to watch such a show, they'll get it. And that's just an example. It's the law of demand and supply and it can be applied to almost anything.

Now diyer.



> The thing why


The *reason* why



> and they are only interested in *the * Anglosaxon's explanations





> They are studying teaching at university


What's that? Pedagogy?  



> For all of you *who* don't want to say anything





> Some day *it * will *disappear*.





> I've *told* my daughter





			
				Richie said:
			
		

> ...barb*a*ric
> Why only *native* *E*nglish speakers?





			
				flueriste-du-mal said:
			
		

> impot*e*nce





			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> *disapprove*



Well I guess this is just the first part.... now I have to go!


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## jacinta

silviap said:
			
		

> Shouldn't you say I learned Spanish? I had been told the verb "to study" should only be used for college. Am I right?




This is funny.  It could be said that high schoolers don't study and college students do.  Maybe that's the reason for your confusion.  But the truth is:

The sentence is correct.  A subject is studied regardless of the learning that may or may not occur.

What are you studying in school?
We're learning about reptiles.

Did you study French in high school?
No, I took German instead.

Hope this helps.


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## quehuong

Silvia,

Ms. Jacinta's explanation is excellent.


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## jacinta

No, that's not what I meant, silvia.  I was making a joke about college students and high school students.  They both study.  They both learn (that is the hope).  They both *study to learn*.  Both verbs are transitive.   The usage is different, though.  *After studying the solar system, we learned that Venus is the largest planet*.  (I don't know if this is true!).

Does this make sense?


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## lercarafridi

> *After studying the solar system, we learned that Venus is the largest planet*.  (I don't know if this is true!).




No it is not, the largest is Jupiter and it is so huge that the rest of them in the system could be stuffed in it loosely


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## Silvia

quehuong said:
			
		

> ...I studied Spanish in high school


 Shouldn't you say I learned Spanish in high school? I had been told the verb "to study" should only be used for college. Am I right?



			
				jacinta said:
			
		

> This is funny. It could be said that high schoolers don't study and college students do. Maybe that's the reason for your confusion.  But the truth is:
> 
> The sentence is correct.  A subject is studied regardless of the learning that may or may not occur.



Jacinta, I've always been taught that I can't say "I study English" UNLESS I study it in college. Either that was BS or I don't know anymore! Please be patient and try to explain.


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## cuchuflete

lercarafridi said:
			
		

> No it is not, the largest is Jupiter and it is so huge that the rest of them in the system could be stuffed in it loosely



Having studied this thread conscientiously, I have learned that the relationship of Saturn to Venus is akin to that of Halliburton to the White House.

Now is it clear Lercarafridi?  Why does this remind me of bullfighting?

I think I'll have my morning coffee and let Silvia correct my atrocious spelling.


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## cuchuflete

silviap said:
			
		

> Shouldn't you say I learned Spanish in high school? I had been told the verb "to study" should only be used for college. Am I right?
> 
> 
> 
> Jacinta, I've always been taught that I can't say "I study English" UNLESS I study it in college. Either that was BS or I don't know anymore! Please be patient and try to explain.



Buon giorno ragazza,

Whoever told you that must believe that the Earth is flat.  To describe the person properly, you must *study*the thread about he who no tiene dos dedos de frente.

Cuchu

PD-thank you for the corrections!


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## VenusEnvy

cuchufléte said:
			
		

> To describe the person properly, you must *study*the thread about he who no tiene dos dedos de frente.



::giggle::


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## Sharon

Silviap, from my dictionary, a few definitions for the word "study" :

study (n.)
1.) The act or process of studying: the pursuit of knowledge, as by reading, observation, or research.
2.) Attentive scrutiny.

study (v.)
1.) To apply one's mind purposefully to the acquisition of knowledge or understanding of (a subject.)
2.) To read carefully.
3.) To memorize.
4.) To take (a course) at a school.
5.) To inquire into : INVESTIGATE. 
6.) To examine closely : SCRUTINIZE.
7.) To give careful thought to : CONTEMPLATE.

In my opinion, anyone who sets out to learn something would be studying, and that would include a first grader, sitting at the kitchen table, learning how to spell "cat" and "dog."

Hope that helps clear up the confusion!!!


----------



## jacinta

lercarafridi said:
			
		

> No it is not, the largest is Jupiter and it is so huge that the rest of them in the system could be stuffed in it loosely





Now I must *study* my astronomy to *learn* the sizes of the planets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Silvia

Thanks everybody!!! I'm so bothered by what I've been told ages ago and most of all because I believed that!!!

And Cuchu, I didn't find any mistakes


----------



## lercarafridi

cuchufléte said:
			
		

> Having studied this thread conscientiously, I have learned that the relationship of Saturn to Venus is akin to that of Halliburton to the White House.
> 
> Now is it clear Lercarafridi?  Why does this remind me of bullfighting?
> 
> I think I'll have my morning coffee and let Silvia correct my atrocious spelling.



Bullfighting? I do not know. You tell me. So as to Halliburton and the White House let me comment on what the cowboy said once when he was asked about Sadam Hussein  links with Al Qaeda being the same as those of Vladimir Putin and the leader of the Chechenian guerrilla: “make no mistake about it, no doubt he (Saddam) is a blood thirsty dictator and the world will be safer once he is removed”.


----------



## Sharon

When observing (or judging) people of another culture, many of us tend to use our own culture as the yardstick by which we measure all other's behaviors. Sociologists call this ethnocentrism, and it is based on the assumption that one's own way of life is superior to all others. As I read this thread, and saw the anger and hostility it has caused, I cannot help but think of this, and wonder if Diyer's daughter is taking a Sociology course, and is this what they were looking for?  If not, it is still what they found.

Torture, barbaric, cruel, and ought to be banned? I'm not sure. It's not that I can't see that point, but with all the other things that are going on in the world, I do not feel it is my place to judge. I am not a particularly religious person, but once you boil it all down: Only (your) God can truly judge you.

That said, I'll now reverse my stance, and say that there* is* one cultural practice that I feel ought to be banned. I simply cannot understand the practice of FGM. I am providing a link for you all, and I ask that at least the more excitable of you read it. Then let's talk about barbaric torture.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm

Please understand that I am not looking to argue with anyone here. I guess I'm asking for a little tolerance and perspective.


----------



## Silvia

I didn't know you called it that. I thought the correct name was infibulation. I learned something new.


----------



## RODGER

Bullfighting is a wonderfully choreographed tragedy designed to glorify the courage of a man, the matador, who remains alone in the middle of the arena at the end of the fight and receives the applause of the crowd.

Unfortunately, it is based on a lie.

The lie is that it is not a combat between a man and a bull, but between several (10?) armed men, some on horseback, and a trapped animal.

The outcome is never in doubt, unless the matador is particularly inept.

It is not the cruelty that is despicable and ignoble, nature is cruel, man is part of nature - it is the *lie !*

Rodger


----------



## te gato

Hola;
My opinion of bull fighting...I personally do not like it, for the simple fact that in the end the bull is killed and for what..the ear? We call a lot of things "sports" but in football, baseball and so on the winning team does not Kill the loosing team in the end for the praise of the crowd.
Most people condone the act of killing cows, deer hunting and so on here..because we eat the meat! Ask any Hunter what is done with the animal after it is killed and you will get the same answer every time.."It feeds the family". Is the bull eaten after the fight?
We have the Stampede, which is a rodeo with many different "sports" or events in it. The animals are looked after better than the people competing, and no animal is killed to please the crowds, some of the time it is the human that is accidentally killed.
What the bull fighter does is gracefull, and beautiful..(the moves)..but it would still be beautiful without killing the bull.
Just my opinion.
te gato


----------



## Douglas

diyer said:
			
		

> I need your help in order to get an opinion about Bullfighting. It has to be a short comment, as if you were being interviewed at this very moment. Don't think of it so much, just write down the first thing that comes to your mind.
> 
> I'm trying to help my daugther in a task.
> 
> Thanks so much.


Hi there,

First, bullfighting is  unfair since the bull is wounded before the event. The only good thing about it is that the meat of the animal is distributed to the poor, to my knowledge. 

Again, to my knowledge, in Mexico bullfighting the bull is not killed. Why don't they do the same in Spain?

regards,


----------



## Neguita

The world I think of is cruel. I think animals must be respected! I understand the tradition... but the poor toros!


----------



## JazzByChas

Umm...a left-over custom from more barbaric days, akin to English jousting, where an animal is killed for sport...


----------



## blancalaw

I understand bullfighting is a major part of Spanish culture, so I do not condone them from participating in such cultural heritage.  However I do think it is cruel because the poor bull is tortured before he dies.  I always would root for the bull.  *“KILL THE MATADOR!!!!”*


----------



## cuchuflete

> *“KILL THE MATADOR!!!!”*


 Are you serious?
That's akin to right to life advocates killing doctors.


----------



## Fernando

Douglas said:
			
		

> First, bullfighting is  unfair since the bull is wounded before the event. The only good thing about it is that the meat of the animal is distributed to the poor, to my knowledge.
> 
> Again, to my knowledge, in Mexico bullfighting the bull is not killed. Why don't they do the same in Spain?


I am Spaniard, so I have no "vela en este entierro", but just for general info:

- The bull is not wounded before the event. It is "punished" after the first part ("capa").
- The meat of the animal is NOT distributed to the poor (at least in Spain and to my limited knowledge).
- The bull IS killed in France, Mexico and all Hispanic America. It is not killed in Portugal (it is sacrificed afterwards, like any common cow).


----------



## timpeac

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Are you serious?
> That's akin to right to life advocates killing doctors.


 
I don't agree - blancalaw said it in the context of the bull winning the fight that the matador has inflicted on it, that's not the same as, say, putting a bomb under the matador's car. If by some miracle I found myself watching a bull fight I would definitely be hoping the bull would win even if it meant the death of the matador. In fact, I wonder if I mean "especially if it meant the death of the matador". Hmmm, no I think not. Just.

<<edit before I've even sent the message>> On retrospect, yes, "especially".

<<edit after sending>> no perhaps not. Either way if it happpened to pass I wouldn't cry.

I would similarly be very pleased to hear that an abortionist had been killed in a car crash on the way home, for example. As long as no one else was hurt, of course.


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

Fernando:  "The bull IS killed in France, Mexico and all Hispanic America. "

That's a bit of a sweeping statement.

The bullfights I attended in Bolivia had no dead bulls.  The objective was to remove a piece of cloth tied around the bull's hooves, horns or tail - and the bull was never injured in any way during the process.  When it got bored or tired or escaped into the crowd (which happened a few times), a fresh bull was brought in.


----------



## Fernando

Chaska, in Bolivia there are few corridas because it is quite impossible to breed "toros bravos" in the altiplano nor in the Amazonas valley. The countries which have a tradition are Perú, Ecuador, Colombia and Mexico.

I do not know what is a sweeping statement.


----------



## timpeac

It means one that is too generalised and misses particular subtleties.


----------



## Fernando

Then, I will rewrite my statement: 

- The bull IS killed in France, Mexico and all Hispanic America bullfights (CORRIDAS DE TOROS). It is not killed in Portugal (it is sacrificed afterwards, like any common cow). In countries where there are no bullfighting bulls do not die. In Malvinas /Falkland Isles bulls are not killed, nor in Galapagos Islands. I would even say they are not killed in Spanish-speaking communities in Alaska.

A "corrida de toros" is not "anything that deals with bulls". A rodeo is not a corrida, a tienta is not a corrida, even "correr los toros" is not a "corrida". As a matter of fact, in Spain there are thousands of events similar to what Chaska has described, but nobody calls them "corridas".


----------



## Ana Raquel

blancalaw said:
			
		

> I understand bullfighting is a major part of Spanish culture, so I do not condone them from participating in such cultural heritage. However I do think it is cruel because the poor bull is tortured before he dies


 
Hi blancalaw.
I am Spanish and I don't support bullfigthing, I don't consirer it culture or tradition but a shameful activity.


----------



## Mayagirl

Well, I'm a native English speaker so I thought I might as well throw in my two cents.  
Having lived my whole life in America I've never actually seen a bullfight, so I've never experienced the actual brutality of it. So I initially think of a sort of rosy image of some courageous and gorgeous spanish guy in a costume swirling a red cape...definitely not a negative reaction there. When I stop and think about it I know I would never actually want to watch a bullfight, but I have to say that that is my initial reaction  and I imagine that I'm not the only "native-english speaker" who has been fed those kind of images in connection with bullfighting. 
All this to say that the fact that many of us "native-english speakers" have seen a bullfight keeps some of us from forming a truly informed opinion...but maybe that isn't the goal of the assignment?


----------



## Suane

I don't know much about bullfighting, but the shows, in which the animals are tortured should be strictly prohibited and people who defend that as a tradition are not completely sane in my opinion.
Watch these videos (sharkonline.org, then pick bullfightbloodbath.com) and you will be completely sure that this is completely wrong. 
I think that the actors of these videos should be arrested. Many people don't react on the expression and pain of the animal because it does not scream from pain as some people use to. Then it does not maybe look so horrible to them. But just imagine yourself in these positions or someone you like and you will see it as enormously horrible.


----------



## maxiogee

As a non-English native speaker of English I hope I'm not excluded by the wording of the terms of reference!

a) I am very aware that a lot of Englishpeople take a very extreme view of animal welfare when compared to many other countries.

b) I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned French bull-fighting in which the bull is not killed.

c) I've never seen it as I don't like the idea of animals performing for my entertainment - be it at a circus, in a zoo or in 'sport'.

d) It should probably be banned as bear-baiting and cock-fighting was, but that's a decision for the countries where it happens.


----------



## annettehola

Hey, stop! stop! What's all this about killing people and animals? So early in the blessed morning, and I read this! Incredible! I think we should go over there and sit down and talk a bit. What do you want? A coffee, a Bloody Mary and a steak. As you wish. Waiter!

You see? I mean this: The bulls are sold to butchers afterwards in very many places here in Spain. The people then buy their meat and then they eat it. Mmmmnn, glups, glups, and with a good two or more glasses of the most excellent wine the entire world has ever produced, life goes on and people they are fine. The bull is dead alright. It was killed to death. A spectacle was made out of it, and some clapped their hands while others cried the tears of crocodiles because it was all so nasty, yes. But, lo and behold, why is it they went there then, in the first place? Some people maybe like to cry, could that be it? You know? Stop being so saved and pure in the soul when you are not. This is my opinion. Animals are being killed and sold and eaten every single day of the year and some in a way that is not only cruel but bestial. Why don't you start sleeping in front of butchers' shops and refuse to eat the flesh of others instead of picking on bullfighting which belongs to a long national tradition of a huge country to which you do not yourselves belong? What do those that feel so much indignation actually know about bullfighting?

Good morning! 

Waiter! I'll have another steak! 

Annette


----------



## maxiogee

annettehola said:
			
		

> What do those that feel so much indignation actually know about bullfighting?



Probably as much as those who opposed slavery but never owned a slave.
Maybe as much as those who oppose child labour but don't employ childen.


----------



## SofiaB

I have seen bull fights in Spain and Portugal. The killing of the bull is not necessary. Many traditions are ancient but we can stop them today because we are more civilized.


----------



## annettehola

Are we; indeed? Could you give examples of civilised civilisation in our time, please?

Could it possibly be more...eh.. civilised..to hurt the bull a lot with spears and then not kill it? Is that civilised to you?

Annette


----------



## timebomb

Just a joke to take your mind off all the bullfighting arguments:

A tourist asked a native, "What's the number one sport in your country?".  
And the native replied, "It's bullfighting".  
"Isn't that revolting?", the tourist exclaimed.  
"No", said the native, "But that's our number 2 sport".

Loh K L


----------



## SofiaB

annettehola said:
			
		

> Are we; indeed? Could you give examples of civilised civilisation in our time, please?
> 
> Could it possibly be more...eh.. civilised..to hurt the bull a lot with spears and then not kill it? Is that civilised to you?
> 
> Annette


Yes in our time we have war, racism and terrorism but most people realize that these are wrong that is the difference. To kill or torture both are barbaric.


----------



## annettehola

What civilised people we are in our time, then, that we can realise such things. And how wonderful that we, because we can realise the wrong we do, then can stop it. I'm happy for our time. Only I wonder: Then why is it that the wars and the racism and the terrorism and all that you mention is not stopped? And I wonder on and on, and I also wonder about this: These civilised good people they also fought before they became so civilised and good and able to realise things, I am sure you know. And in all parts of the World and in the Heavens also. So perhaps it's not really an intellectual matter this. Perhaps it's simply physical and something to do with what men are: Animals. Mammals. And in bullfighting this fact is combined with artistery. It is - in other words - turned into a game. There are loads and loads of games, called sports, of this type that don't involve animals. Boxing, being just one. You hurt another man and try not to get hurt yourself. It's best if you can knock him out before time's out. If you don't like that, my best piece of advice is: Stay away from it. With bullfighting it's the same: You went, and were repelled. Then; why did you go? Because you went to countries that have this as part of their national tradition? Well; then alright. People who go there just to get repelled, are hypocrites, I think. Everybody knows what a bullfight implies more or less. They should consider the content of the show before they go. 
You write you come from Asia. I spent half a year in India more than 10 years ago. I saw people on their bikes pedalling along with cages everywhere on their bikes with animals in them, bulked together in a way they could hardly breath. I saw worse things than that. In my country these things would chock people. It's enough to make a film where some dogs are shot on a beach (a recently published film:"Nordkraft" based on a book of the same name by J. Ejersbo) for people to start protesting on account of violence against defenseless animals. And you see, that's part of my argument: I was not in Denmark when I was in India, see??? So I had to respect the traditions they respect.
Try to understand this. It's essential in this debate: How can anyone sit anywhere being greenish blue in the face with indignation about something that happens in a place of which they have no real knowledge when it comes to its century-long traditions?
How can you judge a tradition which is alien to you with your morals? Do you know if morals played a role in establishing that tradition? I, fx, do not think so.

Annette


----------



## mansio

As I am against stupid traditions, whatever they are, I am also against Spanish bullfighting. 
Do not pity the bull only. The torero is sometimes carried away on a stretcher.


----------



## annettehola

Do you celebrate Easter? You know, eating more eggs and whatever else goes with it? Do you know about flaggelation? It happens here; too. People run along in the streets giving themselves a good lash with long whips. They draw blood, their own. Should that be forbidden because that is something hurtful? And have you heard of San Fermin? The annual festival where bulls are let loose in the streets and they go wild and people jump for their lives? Many, many people die in San Fermin every year. Should that be forbidden? 
And WHO should forbid?
And WHY?
Because it's "stupid"?
Says WHO?

Annette


----------



## armandonorway

Some of you are right to think that “corrida de toros” is something cruel, in fact to kill some animal in such kind of way looks like, and I will not excuse myself or my people to defence it, I could say that is a deep tradition, that is part of our culture also I could say that this animal was living in all south Europe for centuries and has been exterminated and only in Spain, Portugal and some countries in South America is still alive, that if the Spanish bull fighter tradition stop, the “TORO” will disappear.
Anyway to say that is inhumane like “anime girl” from England said is too much.
Inhumane is what her glorious army is doing in Irak with their American partners, that is which in my opinion is really inhumane.
thanks


----------



## Hakro

Hello Annette,

You're a brave fighter against the general opinion. You could be a great bullfighter!

Anyway, you're not all alone. I agree with you. People should first look around in their own place before demonstrating against others.

Everybody should read Hemingway's 'Death in the Afternoon' and chapter XI 'The Bulls' in Michener's 'Iberia', before uttering one's opinion here. Michener tells that about forty young men are killed in American football every year but these games can't be stopped because they are a part of the American way of life. Just as bullfighting is in Spain.


----------



## armandonorway

thanks for your replay, is many things more important to solve before, but like we always see is a big distance between our european way to think and their's


----------



## mansio

Annette

I know the San Fermin in Pamplona/Irunea as I lived near the Basque Country, and I know the Semana Santa in Sevilla (which btw is little stuff compared to the Shiite Ashura). 
As with the veil or the "impurity" of menstruating women, it is not up to me to forbid people to hurt themselves. But I think it is my duty to express my opinion.


----------



## Ana Raquel

*armandonorway wrote:*
_ if the Spanish bull fighter tradition stop, the “TORO” will disappear_
that is a commonplace repeated by bullfighting supporters 
 
*armandonorway wrote:*
_Anyway to say that is inhumane like “anime girl” from England said is too much._
_Inhumane is what her glorious army is doing in Irak with their American partners, that is which in my opinion is really inhumane._
and that's the reason because bullfigthing is "humane"?


----------



## armandonorway

Well, humane I mean it is, I have been in the places where this amazing animal is living, I saw how the people take care of them and how they love the animal always searching for the most brave and pure between them, with the unique objective to select a few of them for the fight, I have friends who has been “toreros” and I promise you none more than them respect as much the animal.
Is that humane?


----------



## Ana Raquel

armandonorway said:
			
		

> Well, humane I mean it is, I have been in the places where this amazing animal is living, I saw how the people take care of them and how they love the animal always searching for the most brave and pure between them, with the unique objective to select a few of them for the fight, I have friends who has been “toreros” and I promise you none more than them respect as much the animal.
> Is that humane?


 
so, after taking care of these animals and respect them so much, they perform a "tradition" where the respected animal is tortured and killed, yeah, great coherence!


----------



## annettehola

If you could stop being so moral about the whole thing then, perhaps, we could discuss. I say: You are attacking a tradition with *your* set of morals. That is not "coherent" because you leave the context of the tradition out of it substituting it with your own. 

I ask: Is tradition made up of morals? If not, why are you attacking it with yours?
If yes; what are those morals?

Annette


----------



## Ana Raquel

annettehola said:
			
		

> If you could stop being so moral about the whole thing then, perhaps, we could discuss. I say: You are attacking a tradition with *your* set of morals. That is not "coherent" because you leave the context of the tradition out of it substituting it with your own.
> 
> I ask: Is tradition made up of morals? If not, why are you attacking it with yours?
> If yes; what are those morals?
> 
> Annette


hey Annette, that is a Spanish tradition and I am a Spaniard,  and go to morals thread to talk about morals please, don't spam this thread.


----------



## annettehola

Ana,

You are Spanish. That's so, and I'm not, and that's also so. We are talking about a tradition that has its roots in Spain. (At least when we are talking about bulls, for - fx. in Rome during the Roman times a similar tendency or sport was known there: slaves against lions. It took place in arenas, and we have the name "arena" as a linguistic left-over from those times). Now; I wanted to tell you this: I think it's wrong when you use your personal nationality as a an argument to justify your view that a Spanish tradition is wrong. You put the word *tradition *into quotation marks in an earlier post of yours, which I took to mean, that you do not really consider bullfighting a tradition. I think that's dishonest. For if it's not a tradition, then what is it?
You think I should go to another thread with my thoughts on morals as far as bullfighting is concerned? But Ana! I do not think there are any as I consider bullfighting a tradition, and cannot understand why you haven't grasped that from my earlier posts in this thread. I state that very clearly. Re-read them, please. I say: I do not think a tradition necessarily is made up of morals. I even ask those that might think the opposite to tell me, then, what those morals are. You know why? Because I don't see them myself.
  Would you be so kind and fair as to read what I say and not misinterpret my words or tell me to go away on grounds that are the opposite of what I stated.

I thank you in advance.

Annette


----------



## armandonorway

thanksAlways is exacting to argue about this, now just we should to think what the meat industry is doing to feed us and how has been treated our delicious hamburger before arrive to our mouth.
Adios y suerte


----------



## Ana Raquel

armandonorway said:
			
		

> thanksAlways is exacting to argue about this, now just we should to think what the meat industry is doing to feed us and how has been treated our delicious hamburger before arrive to our mouth.
> Adios y suerte


you are right, Armando, we'd better abstain of eating meat, if one talk to a veterinarian or somebody related to that field,...you can't hardly eat meat for months.
Anyway, the bads of meat industry don't justify bullfigthing.


----------



## maxiogee

mansio said:
			
		

> Do not pity the bull only. The torero is sometimes carried away on a stretcher.



Balderdash and piffle!
The torero *chooses* to go into the ring. 
He is not bred for the purpose and released into this unknown, terrifying and inescapable place - and he is not alone when he is there.


----------



## mansio

Maxiogee

I said that ironically!


----------



## luis masci

When I was as a tourist in Spain entered a restaurant near the Plaza de Toros and asked the waiter to make a suggestion.
 Sir, I strongly recommend "Fried testicles" the man told me. You see, we receive them fresh, just after the bull dies.
 I ordered then fried testicles and found them delightful. Next day, I came back to the restaurant and ordered the same dish and so on.
But one day, I received very little testicles to eat and complained to the waiter. The old man explained: I'm sorry, sir. Yesterday, the bull won...
-


----------



## Suane

luis masci said:
			
		

> When I was as a tourist in Spain entered a restaurant near the Plaza de Toros and asked the waiter to make a suggestion.
> Sir, I strongly recommend "Fried testicles" the man told me. You see, we receive them fresh, just after the bull dies.
> I ordered then fried testicles and found them delightful. Next day, I came back to the restaurant and ordered the same dish and so on.
> But one day, I received very little testicles to eat and complained to the waiter. The old man explained: I'm sorry, sir. Yesterday, the bull won...
> -


 
Really? So why wasn't there a special offer- fried torero's testicles? Maybe you will find them delightful... 
Haven't you seen any videos with tortured bulls? (sharkonline.org-then bullfightersbloodbath.com) Maybe after seeing it you will not be so mild about it....


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> hey Annette, that is a Spanish tradition and I am a Spaniard,  and go to morals thread to talk about morals please, don't spam this thread.



I'm afraid I see a lot of Annette's posts here as moral indignation and personal attack rather than constructive discussion.  

We can talk all we like about how other countries are doing worse things.  We can talk all we like about how animals are eaten and prepared.  We can expound at great length about how the meat of the bulls isn't wasted.  We can say that it's justified by being a long-standing tradition.

Not one of these points is at all relevant to the fact that animals, through no choice of their own, are being tortured and killed for entertainment.  

(And yes, I eat meat ... usually meat from animals I've raised, killed humanely and then prepared myself.)

Loved your story, Luis.


----------



## luis masci

Thanks Chaska.  
Suane, it was obviously just a joke that seemed me opportune to relax a bit this thread. 
I’ll copy and paste my reply from similar post titled "Crueldad contra animales" so you can know my opinion about stuff like this(hope you don't mind it's written in Spanish  ): 


			
				luis masci said:
			
		

> Personalmente, lo único que se me ocurre pensar de los que gustan de corridas de toros, peleas de gallos, perros o lo que sea es que son enfermos. Gente sádica (además de cobardes) que desde una posición cómoda y segura “disfrutan” el sufrimiento ajeno.
> El hecho de que este tipo de horrores exista en el siglo XXI es una clara muestra de lo poco que la humanidad ha avanzado desde la época de los coliseos romanos hasta hoy.
> Se avanzó increíblemente en materia técnica, pero desgraciadamente en materia humana estamos casi casi como en la época de los cavernícolas.


----------



## Suane

luis masci said:
			
		

> Thanks Chaska.
> Suane, it was obviously just a joke that seemed me opportune to relax a bit this thread.
> I’ll copy and paste my reply from similar post titled "Crueldad contra animales" so you can know my opinion about stuff like this(hope you don't mind it's written in Spanish  ):


 
I see your "joke". But there are sorts of things, of which a human should not make jokes - in my opinion. Like you never make jokes from holocaust.
I'm just wondering, did you see those videos?
And I'm very sorry but I can't speak Spanish. I can write my opinion in Slovak if you want.


----------



## maxiogee

Suane said:
			
		

> I see your "joke". But there are sorts of things, of which a human should not make jokes - in my opinion. Like you never make jokes from holocaust.



I've heard many jokes about the holocaust throughout my life. Some poked fun at the Jews, some poked fun at the Germans, and some poked fun at the rest of the world.
It is an unfortunate person who cannot see humour in all of life's situations, the tragic and the happy, the pitiful and the joyous, the sacred and the profane.
_
Suane, have the toiletries or medicines you use been tested on animals?
_


----------



## Suane

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I've heard many jokes about the holocaust throughout my life. Some poked fun at the Jews, some poked fun at the Germans, and some poked fun at the rest of the world.
> It is an unfortunate person who cannot see humour in all of life's situations, the tragic and the happy, the pitiful and the joyous, the sacred and the profane.
> 
> _Suane, have the toiletries or medicines you use been tested on animals?_


 
You know, for the persons who hurted a lot through some situations that some reckless persons make fun of, it is not very funny. Like, if someone's mother died because of hunger, it is not funny at all. Of course, some jokes that are somewhat related to the holocaust don't have to be that kind of jokes, there are exceptions. Your last sentence is true but you should know that there are some limits-also in jokes, you shoud not exceed.
But I 'm going out of topic, so maybe we could end our little talk about jokes.  

And answer to your question: No, I don't use them, although the second part of your question is somewhat confusing because almost all medicines have to be tested on animals according to the law-and I'm sorry about that. Some medicines (over-the-counter (? I don't know the proper name exactly)) don't have to be tested on animals and also some vitamines. So, I'm trying not to get sick and when I'm sick I'm trying to use natural medicines. I use vitamines that are for vegans. I have a list of companies that do not test and do test on the animals because I don't want to buy things that causes harm for organisms that don't have anything from it. And I don't eat foods made from animal products, maybe with the little exception of honey that is foud in some. And I don't want to judge people for eating meat or some eggs (I'm agaist drinking milk in general)- but there are some limits in eating it and if they want to eat it they should raise the animals in natural enviroment without harm and they should move freely in the large areas. I also don't use leather, fur or parfumes that consist of musk and other things of this kind. I'm also against almost all circuses with animals.


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## maxiogee

And why do you do all this?
To prevent cruelty to animals?

Don't you know that the animal kingdom is nothing but unrelenting cruelty from the start of an animal's life to the end of it. Either it is a beast of prey or it is the prey of some other animal. 
They live short and brutish lives, get diseases and die nasty and painful deaths - as do many humans in the course of their lives.

I'm not advocating animal cruelty, but I think that a lot of people think there is something essentially "noble" about not eating meat and not using animal products. What is so noble about not treating animals in the same way as every other animal they share the earth with treats them - either ignoring them or eating them? Are we too not animals placed on this earth to survive as best we can?


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## Chaska Ñawi

I think the topic is drifting away from us here....


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## Ana Raquel

maxiogee said:
			
		

> What is so noble about not treating animals in the same way as every other animal they share the earth with treats them - either ignoring them or eating them? Are we too not animals placed on this earth to survive as best we can?


We can transcend our animalistic side. 
The rest of animals can't.
Significant difference, I guess.


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## cuchuflete

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> I think the topic is drifting away from us here....



I believe the child on whose behalf the question was raised submitted her school assignment about a year and a half back,
so this thread has run its course and is being put out to pasture.

Moralists, vegans, those with and without a sense of humor, and people who would like to discuss the cultural meanings of traditions are invited to open new threads.  Some will be dispatched, humanely.


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