# wird der Bund dann auch komplementär machen



## candel

Regarding the floods in Germany and of course elsewhere. Merkel says:

"Ich nehme mit, dass wir die Soforthilfe natürlich aufstocken.  Sachsen-Anhalt hat heute auch um 20 Millionen gebeten. Das wird der Bund  dann auch komplementär machen. Und die großen Schäden müssen wir  hinterher analysieren..."

Merkel is visiting the area so: "I am bringing with me that we are naturally building up emergency aid.  Sachsen-Anhalt has asked today for 20 million. The state will cooperate in that...

Now, Merkel had said that she would give one Euro for every Euro the local authorities needed to spend.
I am unsure if she is offering the whole 20 or to share in that sum and offer 10.

Vielen Dank.


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## Frank78

Indeed it is not really clear whether 20mio are the total sum or just the partial contribution of the state and the federal government. But since we asked for 20 million Euros, I take it that Sachsen-Anhalt want to spend that amount and is requesting the same from Ms Merkel.

By the way:
Bund=federal government (not the state)
komplementär=complementary (not cooperate) - But that is awful politician language


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## Hutschi

Frank78 said:


> ...
> By the way:
> Bund=federal government (not the state)
> ...



What is the difference (in this context)?

I think "Bund" is the nick name for "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" - and this is the state, represented by the government.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> What is the difference (in this context)?


S_tate_ is ambiguous. It could refer to the _federal government_, to the _Land_ (=_state_) of _Sachsen-Anhalt_ or both.


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## candel

"Der Bund" here refers to the federal government under Merkel's stewardship? Hence I translated as "state" (or government)...we only have the state government under Cameron, then local authorities as well as regional government in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.


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## Edinburgher

For the translation to make sense throughout the English-speaking world, you need to be aware that "state" does not mean the same in USA or Australia, for example, as it does in the UK.


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## berndf

candel said:


> "Der Bund" here refers to the federal government under Merkel's stewardship? Hence I translated as "state" (or government)...we only have the state government under Cameron, then local authorities as well as regional government in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.


You have to realize that Germany has _federal _constitution, like the US. Do don't just have _the _state, you have the _Bund_ (called_ the Union_ of _federal government_ in the US) and the 16 _Länder_ (called _states_ in the US) as distinct governmental entities. Local authorities exist below _Land_-level.


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## Hutschi

Ok, so "state" and "Staat" are false friends here.
Die Bundesrepublik ist ein Staat in Form einer Bundesrepublik und besteht aus mehreren Ländern (similar to the states in the United states, there are also differences).

So "state" can be as well "Staat" as "Land", depending on context.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> Ok, so "state" and "Staat" are false friends here.


That's maybe going a bit far. It is just ambiguous. In German we don't have the problem because we call the federal states _Länder _and not _Staaten_.


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## Frank78

Hutschi said:


> Ok, so "state" and "Staat" are false friends here.
> Die Bundesrepublik ist ein Staat in Form einer Bundesrepublik und besteht aus mehreren Ländern (similar to the states in the United states, there are also differences).
> 
> So "state" can be as well "Staat" as "Land", depending on context.



I think the Germans intentionally chose "Länder" instead of "Staaten" because our Bundesländer have far less freedom and independence than the US states have and especially had.

But in English this distinction is not being made.


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## berndf

Frank78 said:


> I think the Germans intentionally chose "Länder" instead of "Staaten" because our Bundesländer have far less freedom and independence than the US states have and especially had.


It was not _chosen _but just continues ancient use. Calling principalities of the empire collectively _die deutschen Lande_ has a longer tradition then the US exist.


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## candel

It is really just about national and regional levels or layers of government. The word "state" is confusing. In the Uk it is only used for the national government, legislative, executive and judiciary but also in a broader sense to the non-go0vernmental organisations.
In the uk it is really about the central powers of authority, then the cities, regional institutions like the Welsh Assemby and local councils, urban and rural. for me "er Bund" equates to "the state", in the singular, expressed simply. In Australia you have the states, as in America, but spoken of as "the state of Alabama"etc, collectively as "the states".
I am not sure if Americans or Australians speak of the state as a whole, but in political language "the state" is a concept and not just a word used to describe a particular political arrangement. 
Post-Marxists speak of state-capitalism...such as was the former DDR.


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## Frank78

berndf said:


> It was not _chosen _but just continues ancient use. Calling principalities of the empire collectively _die deutschen Lande_ has a longer tradition then the US exist.



But in the North German Confederation and the Empire the "Länder" were called "Bundesstaaten". And it does show greater independence to me.


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## Frank78

candel said:


> but in political language "the state" is a concept and not just a word used to describe a particular political arrangement.



Well not really, to call an area a state it just must have a) a population, b) occupy a certain area c) a government must be able to rule this area

It is basically an act of defintion in a constitution. If Scotland sets up a constitution and speaks in it of "Scottish people" in "Scotland" and the existance of a "Scottish government" then you have a state. No matter if there is a larger entity called "Britain".


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## Hutschi

Back to the other part of the question:



Frank78 said:


> Indeed it is not really clear whether 20mio are the total sum or just the partial contribution of the state and the federal government. But since we asked for 20 million Euros, I take it that Sachsen-Anhalt want to spend that amount and is requesting the same from Ms Merkel ...



I fully agree here - even that the amount is not clear but that it can be assumed that both Sachsen Anhalt and the BRD will pay this amount -  and found an example for "Komplementärfinanzierung":

http://www.landesrecht-mv.de/jporta...wdoccase=1&doc.id=jlr-HGMV2010_2011pP17&st=lr

Her they define that 





> (1) Das Finanzministerium wird ermächtigt, mit Zustimmung des  Finanzausschusses des Landtags zusätzliche, von Stellen außerhalb der  Landesverwaltung für einen bestimmten Zweck zur Verfügung gestellte  Mittel maximal bis zur gleichen Höhe durch Mittel des Landes zu  ergänzen; für ein vom Bund und den neuen Ländern vorgesehenes  Lehrstellensonderprogramm darf der Anteil des Landes an der  Komplementärfinanzierung den Anteil des Bundes überschreiten.


It is an example for another case but shows the principle.


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## berndf

candel said:


> for me "er Bund" equates to "the state", in the singular, expressed simply.


That's wrong. If you want a better analogy, both linguistically and legally, compare _der Bund_ ("_the Union"_) to the _EU_ and _das Land_ ("_the country_") to _Britain_.

Suppose there were a flood in Britain and the EU commission pledged to provide the same amount to flood victims that the British government itself spends to help flood victims. That's about the situation where have here.


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## Hutschi

Hi Bernd, now it becomes really complicate. 
And I see all these analogies work only to some degree.
I agree to Candel's interpretation in some respect, but also to yours.

This is because the EU has not the same status as the USA. The government of the EU is very restricted.
So it depends on whether we consider the structure, the function, or both.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> Hi Bernd, now it becomes really complicate.
> And I see all these analogies work only to some degree.
> I agree to Candel's interpretation in some respect, but also to yours.
> 
> This is because the EU has not the same status as the USA. The government of the EU is very restricted.
> So it depends on whether we consider the structure, the function, or both.


I think it is actually quite simple: _Der Bund _means _the union_. This expressly contrasts with the individual members of the union.


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## Hutschi

berndf said:


> I think it is actually quite simple: _Der Bund _means _the union_. This expressly contrasts with the individual members of the union.



Here I agree.
The union and Sachsen Anhalt -

"Bund" is a nick name here (if we consider the style).
It may have other meanings in other context (army).


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> "Bund" is a nick name here (if we consider the style).
> It may have other meanings in other context (army).


Not at all. That is official usage, as official as it gets. Chapter II of the _Grundgesetz_ (the federal constitution; yes, Candel, the qualifying adjective "federal" is necessary: the states have their own constitutions) is titled
*II. Der Bund und die Länder*.

The colloquial name _Der Bund_ for the German armed forces is a different story.


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## Hutschi

berndf said:


> Not at all. That is official usage, as official as it gets. Chapter II of the _Grundgesetz_ (the federal constitution; yes, Candel, the qualifying adjective "federal" is necessary: the states have their own constitutions) is titled
> *II. Der Bund und die Länder*.



Thank you for this, I learned a lot.
I didn't remember this.


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## candel

I am speaking in a meta-political way...the "state" can be a broad or narrower concept. It is a little off track here but it is hard to understand some points in translation precisely because of crossed-meanings and understandings. Der Bund is not the state but a federation of *Länder...certainly in theory, but in practice the government has like all governments centralized power over time even as the Eu itself has arising from this is the current political quarrels between Brussels and member states, not just in the UK but also in Hungary notably.
Whether or not Der Bund is in practice pretty much like the British state or a genuine de-centralized system is a question for pliticalscience beyond the scope of this thread. The respective power balances in the American system is similarly open to debate.
*


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## berndf

I find it difficult to understand your problem. The _Bundesrepublik Deutschland_ (for short called "der Bund") and the _Freistaat Sachsen_ (for short called "das Land") are two separate fiscal authorities with their own exchequers negotiating how to split costs for a common project (helping flood victims) and the spokesperson of one of the two entities, the Chancellor as the "CEO" of _der Bund_, pledges to provide the same amount as _das Land_. That is quite simple, I find.


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## candel

Yes that is clear. Post 23 is perfectly clear. As far as I recall there was the issue of the word "state"...if we wanted to use an English type expression..der Bund would be the state would it not for us? That is why we might prefer to translate using actual German usage der Bund..and from there you just need to brush up on how German organs of government work.


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## berndf

I would translate _der Bund_ as _the federal government_. That would be compatible with US usage.


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## candel

Thanks everyone for their contribution.


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## Gernot Back

berndf said:


> In German we don't have the problem because we call the federal states _Länder _and not _Staaten_.


Not in the case of Bavaria, Thuringia and Saxony, whose complete official names start with the term _Freistaat_ and which (in the case of Bavaria and Saxony) are governed by a _Staatsregierung_ including _Staatsminister_(s).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staats...esrepublik_Deutschland_.28L.C3.A4nderebene.29


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## berndf

Gernot Back said:


> Not in the case of Bavaria, Thuringia and Saxony, whose complete official names start with the term _Freistaat_ and which (in the case of Bavaria and Saxony) are governed by a _Staatsregierung_ including _Staatsminister_(s).


And? We still do not say _der Staat Bayern_; we say either _das Land Bayern_ or _der Freistaat Bayern_. So, no ambiguity.


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