# how he dared <to> defeat him



## tufguy

I would like to know about the usage of "Dare" in the past tense. For example here are few sentences.

1) Tom asked Jim that "how he dared defeat him in the game".

2) Tom asked Jim that "how did he dare to defeat him in the game".

3) I asked him how he dared touch my car.


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## PaulQ

Unfortunately, your first two examples are filled with errors and are unclear as to why "dare" has been used. They do not provide good examples. 

Your third example is in the past because it is reported speech.


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## Barque

tufguy said:


> 1) Tom asked Jim that "how he dared defeat him in the game".
> 2) Tom asked Jim that "how did he dare to defeat him in the game".


When you put words in quotes like that, it means you are reproducing what was actually said.

So your use of "he" suggests that Tom asked Jim about someone else.

I think what you meant was: _Tom asked Jim how he dared defeat him in the game _(where _he_ refers to Jim). But you haven't given us a context so we don't know if it means what you think it means.

The word "that" normally doesn't follow "asked" as a conjunction. It can follow if you're using it as a pronoun. _He asked him that. _("That" refers to something described earlier.)


The third sentence is fine.

_Cross-posted._


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## Edinburgher

I would not say the third example is fine.  It's not something I think we would say, because the phrase "How dare you" does not transplant well into the past.
The only real option here is to use a direct quotation:_ I asked him: "How dare you touch my car?"_


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## Loob

The third example looks OK to me.
That said, I suspect I would be more likely to say it with a _to_-infinitive_: I asked him how he dared to touch my car._
The situations in which we use "dare" with the bare infinitive are getting more and more restricted, I think.


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## tufguy

Are those sentences wrong? Sorry I don't understand.


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## tufguy

Barque said:


> When you put words in quotes like that, it means you are reproducing what was actually said.
> 
> So your use of "he" suggests that Tom asked Jim about someone else.
> 
> I think what you meant was: _Tom asked Jim how he dared defeat him in the game _(where _he_ refers to Jim). But you haven't given us a context so we don't know if it means what you think it means.
> 
> The word "that" normally doesn't follow "asked" as a conjunction. It can follow if you're using it as a pronoun. _He asked him that. _("That" refers to something described earlier.)
> 
> 
> The third sentence is fine.
> 
> _Cross-posted._




Are my sentences incorrect?

Tom and Jim were playing a game. Tom was thinking that he would not be defeated but Jim defeated him even though he was a newbie. This infuriated Tom and he asked him in a harsh tone "how he dared to defeat him in this game whose undisputed champion he was".


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## Barque

tufguy said:


> Are those sentences wrong? Sorry I don't understand.





tufguy said:


> Are my sentences incorrect?


That's what posts 2 and 3 say.


tufguy said:


> Tom and Jim were playing a game. Tom was thinking that he would not be defeated but Jim defeated him even though he was a newbie. This infuriated Tom and he asked him in a harsh tone "how he dared to defeat him in this game whose undisputed champion he was".


This sounds as if Tom expected that Jim would try _not _to win just to avoid offending Tom. It's not clear if that's what you meant.

Did you read my last post? As I said, if you put words in quotes saying it was a statement/question, that means you are reproducing exactly what was said.


tufguy said:


> he asked him in a harsh tone "how he dared to defeat him in this game whose undisputed champion he was".


He couldn't have, in your context. He would have asked "How dare _you_ defeat me...", not "he".


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## tufguy

Barque said:


> That's what posts 2 and 3 say.
> 
> This sounds as if Tom expected that Jim would try _not _to win just to avoid offending Tom. It's not clear if that's what you meant.
> 
> Did you read my last post? As I said, if you put words in quotes saying it was a statement/question, that means you are reproducing exactly what was said.
> 
> He couldn't have, in your context. He would have asked "How dare _you_ defeat me...", not "he".



_"Tom asked Jim how he dared defeat him in the game" this is what you have written. I haven't been able to understand whether my sentences are ungrammatical or you are saying that I am putting sentences in quotes that is why it is changing the meaning. Could you please elaborate?_


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## PaulQ

tufguy said:


> _"Tom asked Jim how he dared defeat him in the game" this is what you have written. I haven't been able to understand whether my sentences are ungrammatical or you are saying that I am putting sentences in quotes that is why it is changing the meaning. Could you please elaborate?_





PaulQ said:


> Unfortunately, your first two examples* are filled with errors* and *are unclear as to why "dare" has been used*. They do not provide good examples.


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## Ander111

tufguy said:


> I would like to know about the usage of "Dare" in the past tense. For example here are few sentences.
> 
> 1) Tom asked Jim that "how he dared defeat him in the game".
> 
> 2) Tom asked Jim that "how did he dare to defeat him in the game".
> 
> 3) I asked him how he dared touch my car.



Before this is about grammar, it's about writing. It's hard to focus on the meanings of any particular words when there are better ways to write the sentences, ways that reflect real life:

1. "How dare you defeat me!" Tom told Jim. (It should already be clear that it was a game.)

2. [See #1]

3. "How dare you touch my car!" I said. (It should be clear that the speaker is addressing "him".)

These sentences are more alive—they create images of real people saying them. They're also simpler. When you keep your phrases short and direct, avoiding unnecessary words, reading and understanding them takes less effort. It's easier for readers to follow you and stay interested.

To answer your question, though, _dared_ is simply the past tense of _dare_. I'm not sure what else you mean.


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## Barque

tufguy said:


> I haven't been able to understand whether my sentences are ungrammatical or you are saying that I am putting sentences in quotes that is why it is changing the meaning. Could you please elaborate?


I did elaborate but let me try again. 

_John told Tom that he wanted to go home._
This is reported speech. Someone is talking about what John said to Tom. John was speaking about himself. Note the absence of quotes.
_
John told Tom, "I want to go home"._
This is quoted speech. The person who says (or writes) the above sentence is quoting John's words; that means he's repeating the exact words John used. That's why they are in quotes. Again, John was referring to himself.

So if you say: _John told Tom, "He wanted to go home"_, this means that the words in quotes are John's exact words. So obviously John isn't talking about himself, because he wouldn't refer to himself as "he". He would use "I". 

By the way this is the same system that's used in Hindi writing also to represent quoted and reported speech, and also in other Indian languages. It's not peculiar to English, which is why I was wondering why you hadn't followed what I said in #3 and #8.


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## tufguy

Barque said:


> I did elaborate but let me try again.
> 
> _John told Tom that he wanted to go home._
> This is reported speech. Someone is talking about what John said to Tom. John was speaking about himself. Note the absence of quotes.
> _
> John told Tom, "I want to go home"._
> This is quoted speech. The person who says (or writes) the above sentence is quoting John's words; that means he's repeating the exact words John used. That's why they are in quotes. Again, John was referring to himself.
> 
> So if you say: _John told Tom, "He wanted to go home"_, this means that the words in quotes are John's exact words. So obviously John isn't talking about himself, because he wouldn't refer to himself as "he". He would use "I".
> 
> By the way this is the same system that's used in Hindi writing also to represent quoted and reported speech, and also in other Indian languages. It's not peculiar to English, which is why I was wondering why you hadn't followed what I said in #3 and #8.




Okay, so it means you were saying that I should have written first two sentences like this:

1) Tom asked Jim that how Jim dared defeat him in the game.

2) Tom asked Jim that how did Jim dare to defeat him in the game.

Am I correct?


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## Barque

Still not grammatical  but you've got the idea.


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## tufguy

Barque said:


> Still not grammatical  but you've got the idea.



"Tom asked Jim that how dare Jim defeat him in the game." Is this what you are asking me to write? Is it correct now? 

But in the reported speech tense gets changed am I correct?


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## Andygc

1) Tom asked Jim *that* how Jim dared defeat him in the game.

2) Tom asked Jim *that* how did Jim dare to defeat him in the game.


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## Barque

tufguy said:


> Is this what you are asking me to write?


No.  By "not grammatical" I was referring to other mistakes***. I already said that you've got the idea.

I'm not going into detail because it will be off-topic.

**Edit*: which AndyGC has pointed out in sentence 1 (#16). Andy, I think you've missed something out in sentence 2.


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## tufguy

Andygc said:


> 1) Tom asked Jim *that* how Jim dared defeat him in the game.
> 
> 2) Tom asked Jim *that* how did Jim dare to defeat him in the game.



Okay, thank you.


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## Andygc

I don't think so, Barque, but I wouldn't use it myself.
Tom asked Jim, "How do you dare to defeat me in the game?"
Tom asked Jim how did Jim dare to defeat him in the game.


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## wandle

> ' Tom asked Jim, "How do you dare to defeat me in the game?" '


That is a strange sentence. What possible situation could it be used in?
'Defeat' is a verb expressing result: but the whole question is in the present. If the game is still going on, then we have not yet had the result.

Suppose we put the sentence in the past (so the result is now known): ' Tom asked Jim, "How did you dare to defeat me in the game?" '
Even so, it is odd. It only makes sense if we imagine several conditions: that Tom is the weaker player of the two; that Jim is in an inferior position of some kind; and that there is an obligation on Jim to lose the game deliberately, despite being the stronger player.

If we make those assumptions, then we can have as the direct speech version: ' Tom said to Jim, "How did you dare to defeat me in the game?" '
For this, we have two ways to convert it to indirect speech:

'Tom asked Jim how he had dared to defeat him in the game.'
'Tom asked Jim how he had dared defeat him in the game.'


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## Andygc

This whole thread is based on unlikely sentences, and that has already been said - as early as post 2. I'm merely pointing out in response to Barque that I didn't make a mistake. I see no reason to create additional context.


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## wandle

> ' Tom asked Jim, "How do you dare to defeat me in the game?" '


Without a context of the kind suggested, the words used conflict logically with one another.


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## Edinburgher

Andygc said:


> I'm merely pointing out in response to Barque that I didn't make a mistake.


I don't know what Barque's objection was, since he didn't specify.  One possibility is optical.  In #16 there are two red _*that*_s.  Both are crossed out with a thin line.  This line is black in the first sentence but red in the second.  This second line doesn't show up well against the bold type, and could have given him the impression that you forgot to cross it out.

The other possibility is that, even with the deletion of *that*, the structure of the second sentence still looked strange to him.  I share this feeling.  The unlikeliness of the example with *daring* perhaps obscures this awkwardness, so let me try something else:

_Tom asked Jim, "How did you open the bottle without a corkscrew?"
Tom asked Jim how he opened the bottle without a corkscrew.
Tom asked Jim how did he open the bottle without a corkscrew._

The last sentence above looks distinctly unnatural, except perhaps if the word *did* is stressed for effect.  Is that what you had in mind?

It was a screwtop bottle.
They found a toolbox, which luckily contained a suitable screw, which they drove into the cork with a screwdriver, and then they pulled the cork out by gripping the screw with a pair of pliers.


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## Andygc

No complicated context is needed. There is no logical conflict. Jim has just beaten Tom:

Tom asked Jim, "How dare you defeat me in the game?"
Or, Tom being pompous,
Tom asked Jim, "How do you dare to defeat me in the game?"

So
Tom asked Jim how Jim dared defeat him in the game.
Or
Tom asked Jim how did Jim dare to defeat him in the game.

I see no problem. Other than the slightly odd and probably unnecessary "in the game". Of course, if it was some special game, it could be "in the Game", but that would be me creating additional context to justify something irrelevant to the question.

PS. To wandle. Why do you assume the game is over? Nobody has said Tom and Jim are the only players. All we know is that they are playing a game and Jim has defeated Tom.

Of course the answer to that is irrelevant to the sentences in this post.


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## wandle

Andygc said:


> the slightly odd and probably unnecessary "in the game".


'In the game' would hardly be appropriate if the game had just finished. Including the phrase suggests that the two are talking about it some time later.


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## Andygc

Edinburgher said:


> _Tom asked Jim how did he open the bottle without a corkscrew._
> 
> The last sentence above looks distinctly unnatural


Of course it's unnatural. You are starting from a past tense statement "How did you open  ..."


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## velisarius

1) Tom asked Jim that "how he dared defeat him in the game".



1) How dare you! is not a question, so it's rather awkward to try to put this sentence into a past tense. I think you would have to use quotes: Tom said to Jim/asked Jim, "How did you dare to defeat me in the game?"

However that is the kind of question that requires an answer. "How dare you...!" is a rhetorical question, or exclamation, so the exact equivalent isn't available in the past.


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## wandle

velisarius said:


> "How dare you...!" is a rhetorical question, or exclamation,


It is still a question in form, even if intended as an exclamation, and it properly becomes an indirect question.


wandle said:


> 'Tom asked Jim how he had dared defeat him in the game.'


Even if Tom had just said 'How disgraceful!' we should still render it as an indirect question: 'Tom exclaimed (or 'expostulated') how disgraceful it was'.


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## Barque

Edinburgher said:


> The other possibility is that, even with the deletion of *that*, the structure of the second sentence still looked strange to him.


Yes, that's right.



Andygc said:


> 2) Tom asked Jim *that* how did Jim dare to defeat him in the game.


My first impression was that Andy forgot to put the words from _how_ onwards in quotes but then I realised that's unlikely; Tom wouldn't have referred to Jim in the third person if he was speaking to Jim. Perhaps Andy was limiting his correction to deleting "that". 

The sentence would be grammatically correct if you moved _did_ to after _Jim_.
_Tom asked Jim how Jim did dare to defeat him in the game._


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## Andygc

Barque, there's nothing wrong with the word order "... how did Jim dare ..."


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## Barque

Andygc said:


> Tom asked Jim how did Jim dare to defeat him in the game.





Andygc said:


> Barque, there's nothing wrong with the word order "... how did Jim dare ..."


Maybe I'm missing something then but I'm surprised to hear that.


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## Edinburgher

So am I.


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## Andygc

Why? It's no different from sentences such as "And thus did God create Adam and Eve".


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## Edinburgher

You're not recommending that we should speak the way they did in King James's day, are you?  Or even observing that many of us do?


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## Andygc

No. I'm just pointing out that the sentences I posted were valid. As I said earlier


Andygc said:


> but I wouldn't use it myself


I wouldn't be surprised to see this form in literature much later than the reign of King James VI.


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## Barque

Andygc said:


> It's no different from sentences such as "And thus did God create Adam and Eve".


I agree that sentence is fine but I still feel the one we're discussing is different. I'm not sure how to explain it though - probably something to do with the fact that what we're discussing is a question being reported, while your example above is a bare statement.


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## wandle

Barque said:


> what we're discussing is a question being reported


Yes.
Direct speech: ' Tom said, "How did he dare do that?" '
Indirect speech: 'Tom asked how he had dared do that'.

Edited.


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## Andygc

The question that I was reporting was 


Andygc said:


> Tom asked Jim, "How do you dare to defeat me in the game?"


 not 


wandle said:


> "How did he dare do that?" '


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## wandle

Post 37 was offering an example of conversion from direct to indirect speech.


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## Andygc

wandle said:


> Post 37 was offering an example of conversion from direct to indirect speech.


Indeed, and I doubt anybody has any problem with that straightforward example. But although you quoted Barque's post you did not adress his comment, which concerned the placement of "did" in reported speech arising from a present tense question that used the relatively uncommon "how do you dare?"


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## wandle

The idea was simply to reinforce valid usage.


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