# Avestan: "naxtar" ~ "night"



## Phosphorus

Greetings,

I recently noticed Avestan "upa-naxtar" ~ "adjoining the night". It appears to me that something such as "naxta*" (with a probable Old Iranian form of "nakta*") existed in Avestan for "night"-along with "xshapa".

I wonder is "naxta*" (or something like it) attested in the Avestan materials at hand? It would certainly share the same root with Sanskrit "naktam" ~ "at night" (as it is asseverated here: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=night&allowed_in_frame=0).

P.S. This Avestan entry will eventually explain the etymology of modern Kurdish "notek"/"nutek" ~ "sheer darkness"/"darkness of night" (< "nuxtak*" <? "naxuta-ka*").

Thanks in advance for your reply.


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## berndf

The root _nokt-/nekt-_ is really common Indo-European and can be traced through all through the entire IE group. Cf. Latin _nox_, oblique root _noct-_; Classical Greek _νύξ_ [nÿkʰs], oblique root _νυκτ_- [nÿkt-]; German _Nacht_ [naxt]; English (before the muting of "gh"): _night_ [nɪçt] (in Germanic, [x] and [ç] were allophones of /h/, the reflex of PIE /k/), Lithuanian _naktis_...


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## Phosphorus

berndf said:


> The root _nokt-/nekt-_ is really common Indo-European and can be traced through all through the entire IE group. Cf. Latin _nox_, oblique root _noct-_; Classical Greek _νύξ_ [nÿkʰs], oblique root _νυκτ_- [nÿkt-]; German _Nacht_ [naxt]; English (before the muting of "gh"): _night_ [nɪçt] (in Germanic, [x] and [ç] were allophones of /h/, the reflex of PIE /k/), Lithuanian _naktis_...



Yes seemingly a significant number of Indo-European languages share a similar root in this case. For modern Iranian languages, as far as I know, it has only survived in Kurdish in shape of "nutek". I could not initially figure out its exact origin: via an Old Iranian root or through the Hittite proper? But noticing Avestan "upa-naxtar" clarified its Iranian origin to me.

I just wish to know what is the exact Avestan root ("naxta*"?) and is it attested independently in Avestan materials, namely not in combinations such as "upa-naxtar"?


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## berndf

Phosphorus said:


> I could not initially figure out its exact origin: via an Old Iranian root or through the Hittite proper? But noticing Avestan "upa-naxtar" clarified its Iranian origin to me.


Or directly inherited from PIE. It doesn't have to be a loan at all. That's why I showed you it is a very common IE word.


Phosphorus said:


> I just wish to know what is the exact Avestan root ("naxta*"?) and is it attested independently in Avestan materials, namely not in combinations such as "upa-naxtar"?


I found a reference to _naxtar=night_ outside the phrase _upa-naxtar_ here., p.9, footnote 44.


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## Phosphorus

berndf said:


> Or directly inherited from PIE. It doesn't have to be a loan at all. That's why I showed you it is a very common IE word.



Yes I did not took it as borrowing from Avestan, I was trying to have an idea about a probable Old Iranian common root. And you are right one should also take into account the direct inheritance, thank you.



berndf said:


> I found a reference to _naxtar=night_ outside the phrase _upa-naxtar_ here., p.9, footnote 44.



Many thanks pal, I am grateful for the provided link.


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## fdb

The adjective upa.naxtar occurs twice in the Avesta. Bartholomae, _Altiranisches W__ö__rterbuch,_ col. 391,  glosses it as “an die Nacht angrenzend”. It implies a simplex naxtar- (n.), like Skt. nakt- (f.), but with an r extension, as in Greek νύκτωρ “at night” (adv.). The simplex does not occur in the Avesta, but the root survives in Wakhi (one of the Iranian languages in the Pamir mountains) as naγδ, a perfectly regular Eastern Iranian reflex of *naxt. Otherwise, Iranian has replaced the inherited word for “night” by reflexes of xšap- (f.), xšapan (f., n.), xšapā- (f.) etc., like Skt. kṣap- (f.), e.g. New Persian šab.

The reference supplied by Bernd is not Avesta but Pahlavi (Dēnkard VIII). The passage is very problematic. I am not aware of any other occurrence of *naxtar in Middle Persian and would like to defer judgement on this passage until a critical edition of Dēnkard VIII becomes available. Due to the ambiguity of Pahlavi script nhtl could just as well be whtl, wʼtl, nʼtl, etc.

I do not have an etymology for Kurdish notek/nutek, but a derivation from *naxtar- seems very difficult from the point of view of regular sound correspondences.


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## Phosphorus

fdb said:


> The adjective upa.naxtar occurs twice in the Avesta. Bartholomae, _Altiranisches W__ö__rterbuch,_ col. 391,  glosses it as “an die Nacht angrenzend”. It implies a simplex naxtar- (n.), like Skt. nakt- (f.), but with an r extension, as in Greek νύκτωρ “at night” (adv.). The simplex does not occur in the Avesta, but the root survives in Wakhi (one of the Iranian languages in the Pamir mountains) as naγδ, a perfectly regular Eastern Iranian reflex of *naxt. Otherwise, Iranian has replaced the inherited word for “night” by reflexes of xšap- (f.), xšapan (f., n.), xšapā- (f.) etc., like Skt. kṣap- (f.), e.g. New Persian šab.



Thanks a lot for the precise reference, I appreciate it.



fdb said:


> The reference supplied by Bernd is not Avesta but Pahlavi (Dēnkard VIII). The passage is very problematic. I am not aware of any other occurrence of *naxtar in Middle Persian and would like to defer judgement on this passage until a critical edition of Dēnkard VIII becomes available. Due to the ambiguity of Pahlavi script nhtl could just as well be whtl, wʼtl, nʼtl, etc.



Thank you for the clarification. I just initially presumed that Pahlavi "naxtar" is only another religious term that has entered Middle Persian lexicon during, let's say, the revival of Zoroastrianism under the Sassanid pax. I believe "spenag" ~ "sacred" or "srishwadag" ~ "1/3" are potentially similar examples (I have not read it somewhere, but based on the typical sound changes in Avestan and Persian, I assume these to be very later borrowings).



fdb said:


> I do not have an etymology for Kurdish notek/nutek, but a derivation from *naxtar- seems very difficult from the point of view of regular sound correspondences.



At the first sight it appears so, but Kurdish in some cases has already developed "-x-" into "-w-". This development happens via "x" turning into "gh" or "g" and then this sound results in "w" ("-g/-" > "-w/-" shift is typical in Central Kurdish, e.g. "agir" > "awir" ~ "fire", "cirag" > "ciraw" ~ "lamp", "bedbext" > "bewbext"/"bobext" ~ "unlucky"). An at hand example, for "x" > "w" shift, might be common Kurdish "nexsh" (< Ar. "نقش")  which has a variant such as "newsh" (< "negsh*" < "nexsh"; also one "shewtan" ~ "to burn" may suggest a similar development, cf. Av. "saoxt*", Per. "suxtan"). I presume the same thing may have happened to a supposed common Iranian root of "naxta*" in Kurdish: "naxta*" > "naxt-aka*" > "nawtak*" > "_notak_" or as in Kurdish alphabet "notek".

Thanks to your mention to Wakhi "naghd", I found this link (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/nókʷts). There also states Kurdish "nixte" to be of the same origin (although its sense might not properly fit the significance of darkness or night-I am afraid  it may be only representing an outward resemblance and nothing more). But if considered of the same root then "nixte" is the Northern (Kurmanji) Kurdish cognate of Central (Sorani) "notek"/"nutek". However retention of "x" before "t" in Kurdish appears a little bit far-fetched to me, unless in case of loans.


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## fdb

Your explanation of the Kurdish word looks good. I was not aware of the wiktionary entry. The Avestan script does not show up on my screen, so I cannot comment on its correctness, but the Wakhi word should have a fricative -δ (as correctly in Bartholomae), not -d.


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## Phosphorus

The Avestan script does not appear on my screen either. Yes it is most likely a spelling error putting "_naγd_" instead of the original "_naγ_δ". Thanks again for your help pal.

I wonder if you could help me out with Persian "sir" ~ "saturated" here in this thread: "http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2476993". I will add some updates in there.


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## Dhira Simha

berndf said:


> The root _nokt-/nekt-_ is really common Indo-European and can be traced through all through the entire IE group. Cf. Latin _nox_, oblique root _noct-_; Classical Greek _νύξ_ [nÿkʰs], oblique root _νυκτ_- [nÿkt-]; German _Nacht_ [naxt]; English (before the muting of "gh"): _night_ [nɪçt] (in Germanic, [x] and [ç] were allophones of /h/, the reflex of PIE /k/), Lithuanian _naktis_...



There is no doubt that  all  these words are cognates, however, postulating a root _nokt-/nekt,_ obtained by a simple mechanical  application of regular correspondences, may not provide the correct picture. If we have a closer look at the  Vedic  _nakta _(n.) we can see that  there are also forms like _náktā_  (f) and also _nakti_ (f.) all meaning "night". Such gender  endings are typical for   verbal adjectives formed by the Past Passive Participle  ending -ta. In fact, _nakta_  by its internal structure is a typical Past Passive Participle: compare  _akta_ "driven" (from  _aj_ "to drive, propel"), _ukta_ " said" (from _vac_ "to speak"), yukta "united" (from _yuj_ "unite, join")  and dozens of others.  This is actually acknowledged by C. Watikins in his dictionary: where he, following Pokorny's  _nekʷ-(t-)_, _nokʷ-t-s_*,* has the IE root as *_nekw-t-_  accompanied by a note "Probably from a verbal root "neg"-, to be dark, be night."  I could say a lot more but, I am afraid, it will be off-topic.


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## Phosphorus

Dhira Simha said:


> There is no doubt that  all  these words are cognates, however, postulating a root _nokt-/nekt,_ obtained by a simple mechanical  application of regular correspondences, may not provide the correct picture. If we have a closer look at the  Vedic  _nakta _(n.) we can see that  there are also forms like _náktā_  (f) and also _nakti_ (f.) all meaning "night". Such gender  endings are typical for   verbal adjectives formed by the Past Passive Participle  ending -ta. In fact, _nakta_  by its internal structure is a typical Past Passive Participle: compare  _akta_ "driven" (from  _aj_ "to drive, propel"), _ukta_ " said" (from _vac_ "to speak"), yukta "united" (from _yuj_ "unite, join")  and dozens of others.  This is actually acknowledged by C. Watikins in his dictionary: where he, following Pokorny's  _nekʷ-(t-)_, _nokʷ-t-s_*,* has the IE root as *_nekw-t-_  accompanied by a note "Probably from a verbal root "neg"-, to be dark, be night."  I could say a lot more but, I am afraid, it will be off-topic.



Very instructive notes Dhira Simha, thanks for you contribution.


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## Dhira Simha

I thought that it was important because it it would be interesting to establish whether a cognate for "night" in a given branch or language was inhered as a noun, which had already lost its connection with the verbal root *_nVg/nVj_, or was  it formed within it by ways of a P. P. P. or some other verbal form.  This is, of course, subject to the acceptance of the existence of such hypothetical root. In any case, such possibility should not be discounted. One element of proof in favour of this root  is the rather obscure Vedic _t_-less *nak* ind. (g. %{svar-Adi} , as nomin. RV. vii , 71 , 1) night. I shall find the passage in Rig-Veda and analyse it.

As for your 





> "notek"/"nutek" ~ "sheer darkness"/"darkness of night" (< "nuxtak*" <? "naxuta-ka*")


  You probably are aware of this, in case somebody does not know, the final -k(a) is a highly prolific  comparative/diminutive suffix  used in forming adjectives and  nouns to  express diminution, deterioration, or similarity e.g._ putraka_, a little  son; _aśvaka_,  a bad horse or like a horse. (see Edgerton, F. The K-Suffixes of Indo-Iranian_, John      Hopkins University, _*1911*).

So _note-k_  may be interpreted as "similar to night i.e dark" or "dark as night". Loss of /k/ before /t/ is not unusual. Cp It. _notte, _however the explanation of fdb through_ /w/ _is more fitting here, of course.


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## Phosphorus

Your suggestion about the exact etymological origin of "night" is an intriguing idea.

Thanks for your notes. You are right "-ka" suffix proposes a semantic change in case of Kurdish "notek" and yes loss of "k" before "t" is unusual neither in Kurdish (e.g. "wakt-*" > "waxt" > "wet", "raekt*" > "rext" > "re(h)t", "pakt-*" > "paxt*" > "pe(h)t"). But what makes me uphold another development, rather than "naxtaka*" > "naxutaka*" > "nuxtak*" > "notek", for the Kurdish entry is presence of "-o-" as well as a cognate such as "naghdh" attested in another Iranian language (Wakhi).

That is to say here I speculate of an earlier form of "naghtak", most likely existed in the specific Scythian speech spoken in today Kurdish speaking areas, which can be safely followed by modern Kurdish "notek" through "naghtak" > "nawtak" > "notek"/"nutek". Kurdish "shewtan" also suggests a similar development.


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## Dhira Simha

Sorry, this is not my kettle of fish. All I can say  that the transition  /u - o/ is most natural and quite common across many languages. The medial /d/ in  the cognate  "_naghdh_" might  be a simple voicing of /x/ (perhaps  via /ɣ/). I am sure, *fdb*  can  comment much better and more professionally. I have looked up the Rig Veda 
 and it does have the word _nak_ "night"  in the context  (without sandhi) _apa svasuḥ uṣaḥ nak jihīte_...  which I would translate as "From (her) sister Ushas (with)draws Night [nak]..."  but with  sandhi it reads _na*g*jihīte_. I do not know if it helps you.


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## Phosphorus

It is ok pal, your considerations in regard with the P.I.E root of night have already been helpful. I appreciate it. 

P.S. As far as I know turning middle "x", specifically before "t", into "gh" frequently happens in Eastern Iranian languages.


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## Dhira Simha

berndf said:


> I found a reference to _naxtar=night_ outside the phrase _upa-naxtar_ here., p.9, footnote 44.



I could not find _naxtar_ in the vocabulary of A.V. W. Jackson, however, I would like to note that in the text you suggested it is translated as "night, starry night". This is significant. It may  mean that  it does not directly relate to  Skr. _nakta(m)_  but is actually a compound _ nak - tāra_  where  _nak_ is  "night"  and  _tāra - star_. This explains the otherwise problematic /r/. Could you give the reference to this text. I could not find any source.


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## Phosphorus

Dhira Simha said:


> It may  mean that  it does not directly relate to  Skr. _nakta(m)_  but is actually a compound _ nak - tāra_  where  _nak_ is  "night"  and  _tāra - star_. This explains the otherwise problematic /r/.



Is "tāra" itself attested in Avestan besides "stara*" for "star"? By the way I wonder under which rule a supposed Avestan "nak-tāra" could give "naxtar"?

I believe Wakhi "naghdh" and Kurdish "notek" confirm a common Old Iranian word such as "naxt(a)*", but I due to lacking an inclusive Avestan glossary cannot suggest whether a suffix is responsible here or not (perhaps one similar to modern Kurdish "-al" < "-ar*", e.g. "mert" > "mirtal" ~ "carrion; slim", "kend" > "kendal" ~ "canal").


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## Dhira Simha

Phosphorus said:


> Is "tāra" itself attested in Avestan besides "stara*" for "star"?


Only _ star, stara_ m. star (http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm#dctt) appears to be attested. However, compared to Vedic, only a small  part of Avestan vocabulary is attested due to the restricted volume of preserved texts. I would like to point out, that  in Skr. the semantics of tāra is uncertain.  It has a general meaning  _mfn._ "carrying across, a saviour, protector")  which is a semantic blending of two separate roots: _tṛṛ_ "to carry through or over, save" and _trai_ "to protect, preserve"  . The meaning "star" is usually derived from the root _stṛ "_to spread, spread out or about, strew, scatter" :


*tṛ́ [p= [URL="http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/monier/serveimg.pl?file=/scans/MWScan/MWScanjpg/mw0453-tUSAdhAna.jpg"]453[/URL],1] [L=86521]* _n._ (= stṛ́) nom. pl. tā́ras , the stars*. *

So, as you see, it is a bit complicated. As for your second question,  it is  known that /s/  tended to become debuccalised to /x/ (in my humble opinion, due to  the retraction of the general articulatory setting under the influence of admixture with  surrounding languages - Semitic?) in Avestan.  The /k/ in _nak_  could have coalesced with the following /s/ producing /kh/ - /x/.  Usually, /st/ did not change to /xt/  but the added influence of the preceding velar in _nak_ could have triggered the change. Or, we could postulate the existence of the non-attested parallel form _*tara_ in Iranian but this is more speculative.

Finally, what is the other explanation of the final /r/ in _naxtar_? Why is it also translated as "starry night"?


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## Dhira Simha

I do not know, if you hoticed the other intersting Avestan word: _naxturu_ n. "nocturnal"


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## fdb

Dhira Simha said:


> I do not know, if you hoticed the other intersting Avestan word: _naxturu_ n. "nocturnal"



This is not another word, it is an erroneous citation of the same word. In its two Avestan attestations we in fact have the locative plural written upa.naxturušu, for an expected *upa.naxtərəšu (thus Bartholomae).

The -r- has been explaned in no. 6.


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## Dhira Simha

fdb said:


> This is not another word, it is an erroneous citation of the same word. In its two Avestan attestations we in fact have the locative plural written upa.naxturušu, for an expected *upa.naxtərəšu (thus Bartholomae).
> 
> The -r- has been explaned in no. 6.





fdb said:


> This is not another word, it is an erroneous  citation of the same word. In its two Avestan attestations we in fact  have the locative plural written upa.naxturušu, for an expected  *upa.naxtərəšu (thus Bartholomae).
> 
> The -r- has been explaned in no. 6.



Thank you! With Sanskrit I can check the source directly but I have to trust dictionaries here.  I took it from http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm. I mostly use  Jackson's vocabulary and came across this site today. It appeared quite  credible. At least this is clear. Sorry, I missed the bit about _-r-_  but I  still cannot understand what you mean by "extension".  Is it a  suffix?  What does the Greek have  to do here? I would understand Sanskrit but  the Greek evidence, which does look similar, can hardly be taken as a  straightforward explanation. I am just  curious. Are there any other   Avestan words with this "extension"? Does it have an analogue in  Sanskrit?  There is a primary  suffix _-ra_  which is added to make adjectives i.e. _ug-ra_ " mighty", _aji-ra_ "swift". Generally, _ra_ (like _-ka_  quoted in 12) has its own meaning "acquiring, possessing" which  is quite suitable to create adjectives but it does not convey any locative aspect as in Greek _νύκτωρ_ “at night”.


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## fdb

Look at what I wrote in the chain 
Persian: "سیر" ~ "sir"


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## Dhira Simha

fdb said:


> Look at what I wrote in the chain
> *Persian: "سیر" ~ "sir"*


I can see that the electronic dictionary is crap. But  I could not find the answer to the origin of -_r_  in _naxtar_


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## fdb

Dhira Simha said:


> But  I could not find the answer to the origin of -_r_  in _naxtar_



In Indo-European we often find synonymous stems formed from the same root with different extensions. E.g. in Avestan we have in the meaning “strength”:

            aog-ar- (n.) IE. *-or/n- (heteroclite) 
            aog-ah- (n.) IE. *-os-
            aoj-ah- (n.) IE. *-es- cf. Skt ojas-

Similarly:

            xšap- (f.) ‘night’
            xšap-an- (f. or n.) ‘night’
            xšuuaš.xšap-ar- (n). ‘period of six nights’.

And so forth.


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## Dhira Simha

fdb said:


> In Indo-European we often find synonymous stems formed from the same root with different extensions. E.g. in Avestan we have in the meaning “strength”:



Thank you! I am not sure for IE, which is not attested, but I agree with you that it may be the case in Indo-Aryan. I still think that it is of the same nature as in Skr. _ug-ra_ " mighty", _aji-ra_ "swift" etc. 
I do not think I have more to say.  Obviously, the  "starry-night" hypothesis is incredible  and I only proposed in view of the the Pahlavi  _naxtar_ "starry night" which, as you say, is doubtful.  I am inclined to support you that most probably the poorly attested Avestan *_naxtar/naxturu  _cannot be considered as the prototype for the Kurdish words. Still, I think, the  P.P.P.  origin of _nakta_ and a hypothetical root *_nVg > *nek/nak_ seems to be an interesting venue to  explore.  Thank you!


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## Phosphorus

Dhira Simha said:


> Only _ star, stara_ m. star (http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm#dctt) appears to be attested. However, compared to Vedic, only a small  part of Avestan vocabulary is attested due to the restricted volume of preserved texts. I would like to point out, that  in Skr. the semantics of tāra is uncertain.  It has a general meaning  _mfn._ "carrying across, a saviour, protector")  which is a semantic blending of two separate roots: _tṛṛ_ "to carry through or over, save" and _trai_ "to protect, preserve"  . The meaning "star" is usually derived from the root _stṛ "_to spread, spread out or about, strew, scatter" :
> 
> 
> *tṛ́ [p= [URL="http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/monier/serveimg.pl?file=/scans/MWScan/MWScanjpg/mw0453-tUSAdhAna.jpg"]453[/URL],1] [L=86521]* _n._ (= stṛ́) nom. pl. tā́ras , the stars*.
> *



You are right about the probable Avestan words that we are possibly unaware of, but in respect with our present ken "tāra" is certainly not attested in Avestan. I always had the idea that classical Persian "tārā" ~ "star" (in modern Persian only as a female first name) is a loan of Indian origin.




Dhira Simha said:


> So, as you see, it is a bit complicated. As for your second question,  it is  known that /s/  tended to become debuccalised to /x/ (in my humble opinion, due to  the retraction of the general articulatory setting under the influence of admixture with  surrounding languages - Semitic?) in Avestan.  The /k/ in _nak_  could have coalesced with the following /s/ producing /kh/ - /x/.  Usually, /st/ did not change to /xt/  but the added influence of the preceding velar in _nak_ could have triggered the change.



As far as I know "k" and "g" are supposed to give "x" when they precede "s" in Avestan, this shift is attested-but "s" always remains intact. So based on your proposed pattern for now we have "nak*" + "star" > "naxstar*". Now the question is whether such a development is confirmed in Avestan to change, or maybe to loose, "s" in a "-xst-" combination? I also have no idea whether a middle Old Iranian "s" is ever to turn into "x" in Avestan (I think the famous development of P.I.E "s" into "h" and later "x" in Avestan and Iranian languages is rather out of context in this case).



Dhira Simha said:


> Or, we could postulate the existence of the non-attested parallel form _*tara_ in Iranian but this is more speculative.



Yes I too believe that, concerning our current confirmed knowledge in regard with Avestan and-generally-Iranian languages, such a speculation is not safe.


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## Phosphorus

fdb said:


> In Indo-European we often find synonymous stems formed from the same root with different extensions. E.g. in Avestan we have in the meaning “strength”:
> 
> aog-ar- (n.) IE. *-*or/n*- (heteroclite)
> aog-ah- (n.) IE. *-os-
> aoj-ah- (n.) IE. *-es- cf. Skt ojas-
> 
> Similarly:
> 
> xšap- (f.) ‘night’
> xšap-an- (f. or n.) ‘night’
> xšuuaš.xšap-*ar*- (n). ‘period of six nights’.
> 
> And so forth.



Interesting citation, thank you. If I am not mistaken "-ar" in "*xšap-ar*" may eventually propose a solution for the exact Avestan root in "naxtar": "naxt-*" + "-ar" (specifically when new Iranian entries such as "naghdh" and "notek" or their Indo-European cognates are taken into account)


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## Phosphorus

I wonder if this "-ar" in Avesta has anything to do with New Persian "-ār" (e.g. in "mordār") or Kurdish "-al" (e.g. in "mirtal", "kendal", "gutal", etc.)?


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## Dhira Simha

Phosphorus said:


> I wonder if this "-ar" in Avesta has anything to do with New Persian "-ār" (e.g. in "mordār") or Kurdish "-al" (e.g. in "mirtal", "kendal", "gutal", etc.)?



Sorry, what does Persian _mordār_ means? I hope you do not confuse it with the prolific  "agent ending"  like Skr. -_tṛ_   in _mātṛ_.


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## fdb

Phosphorus said:


> If I am not mistaken "-ar" in "*xšap-ar*" may eventually propose a solution for the exact Avestan root in "naxtar": "naxt-*" + "-ar"



Yes, exactly.


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## fdb

Phosphorus said:


> I wonder if this "-ar" in Avesta has anything to do with New Persian "-ār"



No, the suffix –ār (with long ā) is a semi-productive morpheme in Middle Persian to form nouns from the past stem of verbs: murd-ār ‘carrion’, dīd-ār ‘sight’, guft-ār ‘speaker’ etc.

By contrast, the stem-extension –r- or –ar- is operative only at a pre-historic (Indo-European or Indo-Iranian) level.


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## Phosphorus

Dhira Simha said:


> Sorry, what does Persian _mordār_ means? I hope you do not confuse it with the prolific  "agent ending"  like Skr. -_tṛ_   in _mātṛ_.



New Persian "mordār" means "carrion". The suffix used used here is "-ār", which I do not know whether it has anything to do with Sanskrit "-tṛ" or not.


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## Phosphorus

fdb said:


> Yes, exactly.



That is cool. Thank you.



fdb said:


> No, the suffix –ār (with long ā) is a semi-productive morpheme in Middle Persian to form nouns from the past stem of verbs: murd-ār ‘carrion’, dīd-ār ‘sight’, guft-ār ‘speaker’ etc.
> 
> By contrast, the stem-extension –r- or –ar- is operative only at a pre-historic (Indo-European or Indo-Iranian) level.



I see. Well I assumed a connection because Kurdish "-al"/"-ar" shares evidently the same root with Persian "-ār", but surprisingly the Kurdish suffix attaches nouns as well-as opposed to the Persian proper: "gutal"/"guwal" ~ "crap" < "gu(t)" ~ "feces", "roal" ~ "reddish" < "ro" ~ "red", "sewzal" ~ "tan" < "sewz" ~ "green".

Do you have any idea what might be the etymology of Modern Iranian "-ār/-al"?


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## Phosphorus

fdb said:


> but the root survives in Wakhi (one of the Iranian languages in the Pamir mountains) as na*γ*δ, a perfectly regular Eastern Iranian reflex of *naxt.



I wonder does Wakhi "gh" (γ) usually result directly from "x" or it comes through "g" < "x"-as the famous "g" > "gh" change in Eastern Iranian languages?


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## fdb

xt > γδ or γd
ft > βδ or βd
This is the general rule in Eastern Iranian.


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## Phosphorus

fdb said:


> xt > γδ or γd
> ft > βδ or βd
> This is the general rule in Eastern Iranian.



I see, it is clear now. Many thanks pal.


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