# Do's and don'ts (How to write it.)



## SwissPete

How would you write it?

Do's and don'ts
Dos and donts
Do's and don't's



Thanks


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## Dimcl

SwissPete said:


> How would you write it?
> 
> Do's and don'ts
> Dos and donts
> Do's and don't's
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks


 
What do you think, logically, SwissPete?


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## SwissPete

Well, since the plural of DO should be DOS (without an apostrophe), I would tend to go with *dos and don'ts*.


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## Dimcl

SwissPete said:


> Well, since the plural of DO should be DOS (without an apostrophe), I would tend to go with *dos and don'ts*.


 
That's what I would use, as well.


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## hklass

Agreed...Dos and Don'ts


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## panjandrum

The "rule" in this situation is to use an apostrophe if it helps avoid confusion.
I am confused by dos, so I would always write do's.
I am not confused by don'ts, so I happily write don'ts.

So if in some bizarre universe I had to use this expression, I would write do's and don'ts.


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## Dimcl

panjandrum said:


> The "rule" in this situation is to use an apostrophe if it helps avoid confusion.


 
"Here is a list of the dos and don'ts of polite dining";
"Here are the dos and don'ts of safe driving";
The dos and don'ts of pet care are:..."

I can't imagine in what context this would be confusing...


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## panjandrum

If I see dos I think "disc operating system".


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## Loob

Here's another vote for do's and don'ts.

I would put the apostrophe in do's for the same reason that I would write dot the i's and cross the t's - because, momentarily, "dos" would lead me to misinterpret what was written _(oh, you mean "dos" as in MS-DOS?)_ 

I only use the apostrophe for plurals if there's a possibility of confusion without it - which is why I wouldn't use it for don'ts.


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## juandiego

panjandrum said:


> So if in some bizarre universe I had to use this expression, I would write do's and don'ts.



There's a Joe Strummer and the Mescaleros song called "Long shadow" that goes:
_The devil may care –maybe god he won’t
Better you make sure you check on 
the do’s and don’ts_

So, I thought it was an idiom.


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## panjandrum

The difference could be, once again, the difference in punctuation styles between AE and BE.


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## Loob

juandiego said:


> So, I thought it was an idiom.


It is an idiom, juandiego.  It's just said more often than it's written


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## Tim~!

Loob said:


> Here's another vote for do's and don'ts.


Ditto, for the reasons outlined by panjandrum.



> I only use the apostrophe for plurals if there's a possibility of confusion without it - which is why I wouldn't use it for don'ts.


And why I also write it in the expression "Mind one's p's and q's."


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## johndot

I agree absolutely that the title of the thread is written correctly.
 
However, confusion can arise if the two words are separated (for whatever reason). After all, what is a _dos_? A short night on the tiles? And what are _don’ts_? Donuts with a missing bit?
 
Normally they’re not separated, of course. But what about _why is he list of dos longer than the don’ts?_


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## Dimcl

Using "dos" in a standalone manner _might _lead to confusion (with "and don'ts" in there, I'm not sure how, but I'm willing to grant that).  With all due respect to the argument that it's less confusing to use the apostrophe, however, I honestly don't see how using "dos and don'ts" in any kind of reasonable context could lead anyone to becoming confused.


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## Loob

johndot said:


> I agree absolutely that the title of the thread is written correctly.
> 
> However, confusion can arise if the two words are separated (for whatever reason). After all, what is a _dos_? A short night on the tiles? And what are _don’ts_? Donuts with a missing bit?
> 
> Normally they’re not separated, of course. But what about _why is he list of dos longer than the don’ts?_


Johndot, I'm a bit confused by the "however" in your post.

I think you're saying that the apostrophe in do's is written correctly.

And that it's particularly helpful if the words do's and don'ts are separated, as in: _why is the list of do's longer than the [list of] don’ts?_

Have I understood you correctly?


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## johndot

Oops, sorry Loob (and everybody); what I meant to write was “I agree absolutely that the title of the thread is written correctly by SwissPete (post #3).”
 
I can’t believe I did that.__


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## ewie

_Do_ is the only *word* I can think of off-hand that I would pluralize with an apostrophe, so _do's and don'ts_. (I've had this problem before trying to pluralize the word _do_ ~ as in "I've been to some funny _do__s_ in my time": _do_ in my part of the world means 'celebration, party, get-together _[etc.]_'. _Dos_ looks like: (a) something un-English, namely (b) Spanish _two, _and (c) Portuguese _of the [pl.]_; and (d) _does_ are female deer ... as in _Do a deer, a female deer, Re a drop of golden sun_. I'll shut up now.)


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## SwissPete

From another thread:





panjandrum said:


> Isn't _hair-do_ or _hairdo _rather ancient by now?


What would the plural be, then?


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## Loob

SwissPete said:


> From another thread:What would the plural be, then?


For me, hair-dos, because the "hair" gives a sufficient clue to the pronunciation (and therefore the meaning) of the "dos".

But I wouldn't quibble with "hair-do's", because it does remove any possibility of confusion.


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## panjandrum

Thanks Loob - that's my answer too.


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## aminervi

Hello, does anyone have access to a good old book of grammar? I am not sure if this is a big exception, but I would say that the post by swisspete #3 is correct.
This is why:

  English and US grammar uses the apostrophe in two situations:

1) Saxon genitive, as in "Sarah's room".
2) As an apocope --> the remnants of a letter that dropped, as in "don't do that" = "do not do that".


Therefore "DOS AND DON'TS" seems the most logical option, unless for some reason the plural of "do" can be "does" -- but it seems unlikely [I still have not figured out the potatos/potatoes crux, for that matter], if  we take "Hair-dos" as correct.

I hope this helps.


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## Loob

Hi aminervi

I'd say English uses the apostrophe in three situations, not two: and one of them is to clarify that a plural is being referred to and not a different (singular) word ending in "s"


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## aminervi

Thanks Loob, 

 then this case might be one of those in which a writer/speaker actually has two options, both correct, one of the two 'preferred'?


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## panjandrum

aminervi said:


> Thanks Loob,
> 
> then this case might be one of those in which a writer/speaker actually has two options, both correct, one of the two 'preferred'?


If you allow "preferred" to be an individual choice, I'm with you.

For those with DOS deeply engrained in their brain, if you mean the plural of do, you must include an apostrophe.
This is Loob's third situation.

AE and BE, and various published style guides, may differ on this point.  We shouldn't fall out over it


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## Loob

aminervi said:


> Thanks Loob,
> 
> then this case might be one of those in which a writer/speaker actually has two options, both correct, one of the two 'preferred'?


 
Yes

This thread has touched on two phrases "do(')s and don'ts" and "hair-do(')s".

It's possible to argue for and against the apostrophe in both of these. Personally, as I've said, I prefer do's and don'ts and hair-dos. But it's perfectly possible to argue the opposite case.

Panj may be right that there's an AmE/BrE difference here....


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## cuchuflete

Loob said:


> Hi aminervi
> 
> I'd say English uses the apostrophe in three situations, not two: and one of them is to clarify that a plural is being referred to and not a different (singular) word ending in "s"



As usual, Her Loobescensce is correct.

I would write "do's and don'ts" for the reason given by panjandrum and others, just as I would ask that we dispense with musty grammar tomes and mind our p's and q's.


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## aminervi

Thanks again, Loob, am glad I learned this one!

 I checked the Purdue university online lab [sorry, am not yet allowed to post links on this forum] and it confirms what you said (applicable both to AE and BE?):


"The apostrophe has three uses: 
1) to form possessives of nouns
    2) to show the omission of letters
    3) to indicate certain plurals of lower case letters.




​  Apostrophes are *NOT* used for possessive pronouns or for noun plurals,    including acronyms."


 This site does not give examples, though, so my only doubt now is if "lower case LETTER" is also applicable to words... It might have gotten into usage because of the nice symmetry provided by the two apostrophes.


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## cuchuflete

For what it may be worth, while the grammarians slept, the lexicographers, mercifully, equivocated:

American Heritage Dictionary 

  n.    _pl._ *dos* or *do's* 


A statement of what should be done: _a list of the dos and don'ts of management._


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## Mr.X Senior

Some style guide recommand this way :

Do_s_ and Don't_s_

_s in italic._


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## hklass

Looks good to me and the italic does make it seem different.


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## ewie

Italics can be a bit tricky to pull off when you're _writing_ ~ you know, that thing you do with a 'pen'?


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## panjandrum

ewie said:


> Italics can be a bit tricky to pull off when you're _writing_ ~ you know, that thing you do with a 'pen'?


V_e_r_y_ t_r_u_e_, a_n_d e_v_e_n_ i_n_ p_r_i_n_t, _i_t _i_s v_e_ry di_f_fic_u_lt t_o_ s_p_ot a s_i_n_g_le it_a_lic l_e_tte_r_.


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## ewie

panjandrum said:


> V_e_r_y_ t_r_u_e_, a_n_d e_v_e_n_ i_n_ p_r_i_n_t, _i_t _i_s v_e_ry di_f_fic_u_lt t_o_ s_p_ot a s_i_n_g_le it_a_lic l_e_tte_r_.


That was like trying to read after a night out with Loob  the lads, Panjo.


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## Dimcl

Forgive me if I've missed something but I haven't noticed that anyone has provided a sample of the phrase "dos and don'ts" in context whereby one could possibly misconstrue "dos" as DOS.

I'm in agreement that the apostrophe _could_ be used in the case of possible confusion but as Loob pointed out, she would probably say "hair-dos" because there can be no confusion with the use of "hair".

Can someone point out a context where the phrase "dos and don'ts" could possibly be confusing?


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## ewie

It's not the *phrase* that's confusing, Dimcl. (I'm getting a bit of deja vu back to _He gave Charlie a drink_). It's what your eye does/do's/dos when it's moving left to right across the page. If I had the sentence

_Before proceeding to bake your walnut cake, you should be aware of the dos and don'ts of culinary hygiene_

was planked down in front of me, this is how I might read it

_Before proceeding to bake your walnut cake, you should be aware of the doss and donts no don'ts so do's and don'ts of culinary hygiene._

The stumble would only be momentary, but it would still be a stumble.


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## Kevin Beach

ewie said:


> It's not the *phrase* that's confusing, Dimcl. (I'm getting a bit of deja vu back to _He gave Charlie a drink_). It's what your eye does/do's/dos when it's moving left to right across the page. If I had the sentence
> 
> _Before proceeding to bake your walnut cake, you should be aware of the dos and don'ts of culinary hygiene_
> 
> was planked down in front of me, this is how I might read it
> 
> _Before proceeding to bake your walnut cake, you should be aware of the doss and donts no don'ts so do's and don'ts of culinary hygiene._
> 
> The stumble would only be momentary, but it would still be a stumble.


Not thinking of oats are you?


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## SwissPete

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. This has been very educational.

It seems that *do's and don'ts* is quite popular, although I would prefer *dos and don'ts* (which I intend to use when I feel contrary).


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## panjandrum

Dimcl said:


> [...]
> 
> Can someone point out a context where the phrase "dos and don'ts" could possibly be confusing?


As ewie said, it is not that it is in the end confusing.

But for anyone who was brought up on DOS, I suggest that is the first thing to come to mind when reading a sentence containing _dos and don'ts_.
I prefer to avoid causing my readers to hesitate, to be distracted from the message, so I wouldn't write dos.  But I certainly wouldn't execute people who do.


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## Porteño

My vote goes one hundred percent for the do's and don'ts, not that I think it likely that I would ever have to actually write it, unless it was a dialogue in a story.


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## mplsray

I don't remember whether he addressed the question of the spelling of the expression in the text of the book itself, but a usage writer named Theodore Bernstein wrote a book called _Dos, Don'ts & Maybes of English Usage_ (Random House Value Publishing, 1999).

Addition: It turns out that I have written about this before in this forum. _Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage_, citing Bernstein's book as an authority, said, in its article "apostrophe": 



> Words used as words...are usually pluralized with _-'s_. but words representing sounds or words used as words in common phrases are pluralized with _-s_ alone


.


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