# Difference between European and Brazilian Portuguese?



## JLanguage

To start the discussion I will include the following comparison:

*Portuguese
*Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade. 

*Brazilian Portuguese*
Todas as pessoas nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e direitos. São dotadas de razão e consciência e devem agir em relação umas às outras com espírito de fraternidade.
 
So far it looks like there are differences in spelling and in vocabulary. What else is different?
 
Please keep in mind that I don't speak Portuguese. Hope this thread wasn't done already
Thanks in Advance,
-Jonathan


----------



## Marcio_Osorio

No, no one has done that thread yet.

No major differences between one language and the other exist, but speakers of both languages somehow understand each other.

Just out of curiosity, I did a net search for "Differences between Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese" and found 40 instances of it. Then I did the other way around... "... between European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese" and logged 90 instances of it.

I think that Brzln P native speakers find European P native speakers' accent hard. But the latter, it seems, has never had that much trouble following the former's speech.

As far as both paragraph examples go, this BP native speaker likes the EP example better. But I would substitute "seres humanos" for "pessoas" -- the fewer the words, the faster one reads them.


----------



## Lems

JLanguage said:
			
		

> *Difference between European and Brazilian Portuguese?*


Quite an interesting topic, Jonathan!   



			
				JLanguage said:
			
		

> Hope this thread wasn't done already.


Nope. It wasn’t. But it is easy to search for by using the “advanced search” feature under the “search” option above.



			
				JLanguage said:
			
		

> To start the discussion I will include the following comparison:
> 
> *Portuguese*
> Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade.
> 
> *Brazilian Portuguese*
> Todas as pessoas nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e direitos. São dotadas de razão e consciência e devem agir em relação umas às outras com espírito de fraternidade.


Actually I don’t see differences among these periods, except (perhaps) for the prepositions used here: “*em * espírito de fraternidade” and “*com * espírito de fraternidade".



			
				JLanguage said:
			
		

> So far it looks like there are differences in spelling and in vocabulary. What else is different?


I think the differences are similar to the American and British English… Europeans are rather formal and conservative whereas Americans (both English and Portuguese) are more casual. 

Lets see what our colleagues have to say about the subject. 



			
				JLanguage said:
			
		

> Please keep in mind that I don't speak Portuguese.


I’m curious here: how come you rose this thread not speaking Portuguese? 

Lems
_________________
I traveled all around this country and may assure you that this data processing stuff is an illusion that won’t last till the end of this year. The editor in charge of technical books of Prentice Hall, 1957.


----------



## JLanguage

Lems said:
			
		

> Quite an interesting topic, Jonathan!
> 
> Nope. It wasn’t. But it is easy to search for by using the “advanced search” feature under the “search” option above.
> 
> Actually I don’t see differences among these periods, except (perhaps) for the prepositions used here: “*em *espírito de fraternidade” and “*com *espírito de fraternidade".
> 
> I think the differences are similar to the American and British English… Europeans are rather formal and conservative whereas Americans (both English and Portuguese) are more casual.
> 
> Lets see what our colleagues have to say about the subject.
> 
> I’m curious here: how come you rose this thread not speaking Portuguese?
> 
> Lems
> _________________
> I traveled all around this country and may assure you that this data processing stuff is an illusion that won’t last till the end of this year. The editor in charge of technical books of Prentice Hall, 1957.


 
I find differences between dialects fascinating. And perhaps one day I will find the time to learn Portuguese.


----------



## Outsider

JLanguage said:
			
		

> To start the discussion I will include the following comparison:
> 
> *Portuguese
> *Todos os seres humanos nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e em direitos. Dotados de razão e de consciência, devem agir uns para com os outros em espírito de fraternidade.
> 
> *Brazilian Portuguese*
> Todas as pessoas nascem livres e iguais em dignidade e direitos. São dotadas de razão e consciência e devem agir em relação umas às outras com espírito de fraternidade.


I posted about these quotes in another thread you started. Both those texts would be equally understood by a Brazilian and a Portuguese person. They're just alternative translations. I don't understand why Omniglot decided to post two different translations of the same text.

This being said, there are genuine differences between the two main varieties of Portuguese:

- Spelling differences: 

a) European Portuguese retains some consonants that are no longer pronounced in words like _a*c*to, exce*p*to, ó*p*timo_. The Brazilian spelling has eliminated those consonants. 

b) Some words that Brazilians pronounce with a closed vowel (written _â, ê, ô_) are pronounced with an open vowel in Portugal (written _á, é, ó_), and this is reflected in differing spellings.

c) The Brazilian spelling distinguishes between a closed diphtong _ei_ and an open diphtong _éi_. In Portugal, this distinction is not made, because both diphtongs are pronounced identically.

- Differences of vocabulary: There are vast differences in vocabulary, and sometimes the same word may be employed differently in the two varieties.

- Grammatical differences. The most significant ones seem to be:

a) Regarding the use of personal pronouns. The pronoun _tu_ is replaced with _você_ in most of Brazil, whereas _você_ tends to be avoided in Portugal. _A gente_ replaces _nós_ much more frequently in colloquial Brazilian Portuguese than in Portugal (although it can be found in both varieties).

b) Regarding the distinction between third person subject pronouns and object pronouns. In colloquial Brazilian Portuguese, the subject pronouns _ele(s), ela(s), você(s)_ are often used as objects, where _o(s), a(s), lhe(s)_ would be used in Portugal.

c) Regarding the placement of the clitic personal pronouns. In Portugal, the clitic personal pronouns can come after a verb under some circumstances (enclisis or mesoclisis): _"Dê-*me* um cigarro", "Desculpe-*me*", "Pode dizer-*me*...?"_ They can also be placed before the auxiliary verb, in other circumstances: _"Não *me* pode dizer...?"_
In colloquial Brazilian Portuguese, the tendency is to always place the clitic pronoun before the main verb, and between the auxiliary verb and the main verb, in compound tenses: _"*Me* dê um cigarro", "*Me* desculpe", "Pode *me* dizer...?", "Não pode *me* dizer...?"_

d) Compound verb tenses of the form "_estar_ + gerund" tend to be replaced with "_estar a_ + infinitive" in most of Portugal.

e) Regarding the use of prepositions. Brazilians sometimes replace the preposition _a_ with _em_ or _para_ with verbs of motion. They occasionally eliminate prepositions or pronouns from verbs that are prepositional or pronominal ("reflexive") in Portugal.


----------



## Lems

What a fine explanation, Outsider!!! From now on I'll think of you  as an "Insider", instead.  

Congrats  

Lems
___________________
This “telephone” has too many inconveniences to seriously be considered a communication means. 
Western Union internal memo, 1876.


----------



## Outsider

Thanks, Lem. I was feeling inspired.


----------



## onthebass

Yeah, that really was a great explanation Outsider.

I'm helping with a verb book right now and we are doing a Portuguese version.  We are debating over the differences of verb tense usages. For example, a brazilian told me you don't use the Present Perfect that often instead you just use Preterit.

So if I wanted to say, "I've seen her three times this week."

I would use, "Eu vi.", instead of "Tenho visto."

Is this true? Is it the same in Portugal?


----------



## Outsider

It's true, and it is the same in Portugal. Our so-called "present perfect" really has a different value than the present perfect of English.


----------



## onthebass

Thanks O!

Another question:
How do you say to shower/to take a shower in Portugal and Brazil?


----------



## Outsider

In Portugal: _tomar um duche_.
In Brazil: _tomar uma ducha_, I believe.

Or you can be less specific, and just say _tomar um banho_, "to take a bath".


----------



## araceli

Olá:
Pegar uma ducha usa-se também no Brasil.
Até.


----------



## Lems

.
"Tomar um chuveiro" (take a shower) is often used in Brazil.

Lems
__________________
The stock market reached a plateau that seems permanent.
_Irving Fisher, Professor of Economy, Yale University, 1929, several days before the crash. _


----------



## onthebass

Ok, so the verb phrase _tomar um(a) duche/a_ is not reflexive and noone uses the verb _Duchar-se_?


----------



## Outsider

I've never heard anyone say _duchar-se_. Only _lavar-se_, "to wash (oneself)" and _banhar-se_, "to bathe (oneself)" are reflexive, as far as I know. The shower does all the showering, after all.


----------



## Marcio_Osorio

Me neither. Perhaps physicians may use it in their prescriptions. My copy of _Novo Dicionário Eletrônico Aurélio versão 5.0 (New Aurélio Dictionary on CD v. 5.0__)_ lists it as a legit transitive verb meaning _arremessar um jorro de água, uma ducha, sobre (alguém); aplicar duchas a_. (to administer or apply a douche to : DRENCH).

It does not list it as an intransitive reflexive verb (duchar-se) (to take a douche).

I, for one, cannot imagine myself saying out loud, "Menino, venha já tomar sua ducha -- agora!" or "Vou me duchar. Com licença." (Boy, you git yer *ss in for your douche now) and (Excuse me. I think I'll go douche now) respectively.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## Outsider

I found a reasonable summary: Brazilian and European Portuguese.


----------



## Miki Ferreira

First..there is some difference in the dialects spoken in Brazil.
I am from the south, and i speak
Tomar um banho. (Take a bath)
``Ducha``?
Hehehe, no one speak that.....
Duchar-se? No, no...
And so, what is true?
Se duchar
or
Duchar-se?
=P
``I've seen her three times this weak``
Translate, to the south brazilian portuguese 
Eu a vi tres vezes essa semana.

Tenho visto não eh perfeito, pq ``Tenho``, dá a idéia de que a ação ainda continuará a ser
fica ``Eu a tenho visto tres vezes por semana``
Não só vi, como eh plausivel que ainda vá ver semana que vem
=P


----------



## Johannes

Miki Ferreira said:
			
		

> Mesmo assim: como Brasileiro você não diria:
> 'Eu vi ela' em vez de  'eu a vi'?


----------



## Lems

Miki Ferreira said:
			
		

> First..there is some difference in the dialects spoken in Brazil.
> I am from the south, and i speak
> Tomar um banho. (Take a bath)
> ``Ducha``?
> Hehehe, no one speak that.....
> Duchar-se? No, no...
> And so, what is true?
> Se duchar
> or
> Duchar-se?
> =P
> ``I've seen her three times this weak``
> Translate, to the south brazilian portuguese
> Eu a vi três vezes essa semana.
> 
> Tenho visto não eh é perfeito, pq porque ``Tenho``, dá a idéia de que a ação ainda continuará a ser
> fica ``Eu a tenho visto três vezes por semana``
> Não só vi, como eh é plausível que ainda vá ver semana que vem
> =P


Seja bem-vinda ao fórum, Miki.

Por favor use a acentuação correta para que os não nativos possam aprender adequadamente.

Obrigado

Lems
_____________
Os fins não justificam os e-mails.


----------



## fizzy_soda

onthebass said:


> Yeah, that really was a great explanation Outsider.
> 
> I'm helping with a verb book right now and we are doing a Portuguese version. We are debating over the differences of verb tense usages. For example, a brazilian told me you don't use the Present Perfect that often instead you just use Preterit.
> 
> So if I wanted to say, "I've seen her three times this week."
> 
> I would use, "Eu vi.", instead of "Tenho visto."
> 
> Is this true? Is it the same in Portugal?


 
I think the same could be said for Spanish from Spain and Spanish from Hispanoamérica. I am just starting Portuguese, so I don't have much to offer in that department, but I know while in Spain my use of the pretérito was often corrected and substituted with the present perfect. I remember saying _I saw her at the bank_ (*La vi allí*), and my Spanish friend said it should be *La he visto* because the time I was refering to was more sooner than later.


----------



## spielenschach

Johannes said:


> Miki Ferreira said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mesmo assim: como Brasileiro você não diria:
> 'Eu vi ela' em vez de 'eu a vi'?
> 
> 
> 
> Eu vi ela -  "Pois *eu vi ela* ontem à noite". Há quem brinque com esse tipo de construção da frase.
Click to expand...


----------



## Denis555

spielenschach said:


> Johannes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eu vi ela - "Pois *eu vi ela* ontem à noite". Há quem brinque com esse tipo de construção da frase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Só pra deixar claro e que ninguém se confunda, esse site comete o erro em dizer: _"No português falado do Brasil, na língua do dia-a-dia, o pronome reto (eu, tu, ele, nós, vós, eles) assumiu definitivamente o papel de complemento verbal."_ Isso não é verdade.
> 
> Isso leva a um estrangeiro a pensar que isso acontece com todos os pronomes retos. Embora entendo que a intenção seria só mostrar ao leitor quais são os pronomes retos.
> 
> O que eles querem dizer é: *Os pronomes retos de terceira pessoa ele(s), ela(s) são usados como objetos diretos.*
Click to expand...


----------



## loscuatrogatos

What are the key elements of _written_ Brazilian Portuguese that distinguish it from European? What are the key grammatical differences?


----------



## J. Bailica

I don't know how to start! There are so many nuances, small differences, not so small  differences and... _worlds apart differences _!!!

But you can find a great deal of threads about it here.
Have a look at this one (post 5 is a good example).


----------



## Codinome Shlomo

I guess written Brazilian Portuguese should be identical to written European Portuguese (except for the mute consonants and some differences between the diacritics. e.g. _econ*ó*mico _and _econ*ô*mico _& _fa*c*to_ and _fato_), especially with the Orthographic Agreement.


----------



## Casmurro

Aos foreiros portugueses, só por curiosidade: como é o uso por aí do pronome "a gente" (como substituto do nós)? Aqui no Brasil esse pronome já contaminou tudo e todos, infelizmente.


----------



## Denis555

Make the following experiment and learn how to protect your computer at the same time with Google!

Here's a text written in English and then the same text in Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese.

[Original] American English/The language of your operating system: http://www.google.com/goodtoknow/online-safety/device/

British English: http://www.google.co.uk/goodtoknow/online-safety/device/ 

http://www.google.com.br/goodtoknow/online-safety/device/ [Brazil]

http://www.google.pt/goodtoknow/online-safety/device/ [Portugal]

Read carefully and try to pick the small differences in vocabulary usage, grammar and constructions.

Attention: Sometimes the choice of words is just a question of a random choice: 
mouse (en) = mouse (br) = rato (pt) [computing]
software (en) = software (br) = software (pt)
operating system (en) = sistema operacional (br) = sistema operativo (pt) 
user (en) = usuário (br) = utilizador (pt)


It's almost like if you go to self-service restaurant and on the menu you have the Portuguese language. The Brazilian guy/girl picks up some words from what's on offer and the Portuguese guy/girl picks up other ones to compose their meal.  But both the Portuguese and the Brazilian choices make part of the whole of the Portuguese language.


----------



## Ruca

Casmurro said:


> Aos foreiros portugueses, só por curiosidade: como é o uso por aí do pronome "a gente" (como substituto do nós)? Aqui no Brasil esse pronome já contaminou tudo e todos, infelizmente.




Olá Casmurro,

Em Portugal usa-se bastante "a gente" mas penso que não tanto como no Brasil. A ideia que tenho é que no Brasil praticamente deixaram de utilizar "nós". Em Portugal ambas as formas são utilizadas correntemente.

Muitas vezes, ouve-se "a gente" conjugada na primeira pessoa do plural, como por exemplo, "a gente somos" em vez de "a gente é". Felizmente, muitas pessoas fazem a conjugação correta.


----------



## Casmurro

Ruca said:


> Olá Casmurro,
> 
> Em Portugal usa-se bastante "a gente" mas penso que não tanto como no Brasil. A ideia que tenho é que no Brasil praticamente deixaram de utilizar "nós". Em Portugal ambas as formas são utilizadas correntemente.
> 
> Muitas vezes, ouve-se "a gente" conjugada na primeira pessoa do plural, como por exemplo, "a gente somos" em vez de "a gente é". Felizmente, muitas pessoas fazem a conjugação correta.



Realmente, a conjugação está entrando em desuso (apesar de expressões como "vamos lá"). Contudo, tanto o reto quanto o oblíquo ainda é utilizado normalmente. Ex.: -Quem fez isso?
-Nós!

-Ela nos contou o seu segredo.

Outra coisa, vocês declinam algum gênero no uso do a gente? Por exemplo: "A gente está cansada" ou "A gente está cansado"?. No Brasil, o masculino é absoluto.


----------



## spielenschach

> _a*c*to, exce*p*to, ó*p*timo_


Seundo a "nova ortografia" o p e o c desaparece também em português
*Consoantes mudas - *Uma grafia: -c- e -p- eliminam-se quando não se pronunciam - http://www.priberam.pt/docs/NovaOrtografia.pdf


----------



## Denis555

spielenschach said:


> Seundo a "nova ortografia" o p e o c desaparece também em português (...de Portugal. Na maioria do que se escrevia em português no mundo (livros, jornais, cartas, Internet, etc já tinha desaparecido)
> *Consoantes mudas - *Uma grafia: -c- e -p- eliminam-se quando não se pronunciam - http://www.priberam.pt/docs/NovaOrtografia.pdf


----------



## and_what

I would like to apologise before hand as I know this thread had been made a long time ago but I can't use that thread...
ok so I have this girl at work who claims she's from Brazil... when someone speaks to her in Portuguese she says she doesn't understand them as she only knows a decent amount of Brazilian Portuguese... is there anyone that can help me out on this... you will be doing me a massive favour as I'm sick of this girl claiming something she isn't...


----------



## Casmurro

Ok, let me see if I get this: she says she is a brazilian who doesn't know enough portuguese? Because that's insane. Would be the same thing if you say you can't understand me because you only know a decent amont of english, even though it's your native language...

Unless she is only three years old 

But what's your point? Do you want to prove she is not brazilian?


----------



## Ruca

Casmurro said:


> Realmente, a conjugação está entrando em desuso (apesar de expressões como "vamos lá"). Contudo, tanto o reto quanto o oblíquo ainda é utilizado normalmente. Ex.: -Quem fez isso?
> -Nós!
> 
> -Ela nos contou o seu segredo.
> 
> Outra coisa, vocês declinam algum gênero no uso do a gente? Por exemplo: "A gente está cansada" ou "A gente está cansado"?. No Brasil, o masculino é absoluto.




Olá,


Em princípio, sim. O verbo concorda com o sujeito: "A gente está cansada". No entanto, muitas pessoas dirão "A gente estamos cansados", o que ovbiamente é agramatical.

 No que me diz respeito, e perdoem-me o meu preconceito machista, não em soa bem qualificar como "cansada" um grupo de pessoas onde eu estou incluído. Nestas situações, costumo utilizar o pronome "nós": "Nós estamos cansados".


----------



## and_what

yes, I'm done with her constant lying... but this lie has gone on for 2 long i just want to prove that she isn't who she claims she is... 
is there a way i can prove she is lying... i myself know no Portuguese at all... any advice that could help me out


----------



## Joca

and_what said:


> yes, I'm done with her constant lying... but this lie has gone on for 2 long i just want to prove that she isn't who she claims she is...
> is there a way i can prove she is lying... i myself know no Portuguese at all... any advice that could help me out



Couldn't it be the case that she was born in Brazil but then got adopted by a foreign family at a very early age? That would explain why she doesn't understand Portuguese...


----------

