# Learning standard Dutch and/or dialect



## Encolpius

*Split off from **this thread**.*
*Frank, moderator*



Grytolle said:


> Then again, I might be overestimating language learners in general when I think they are able to handle the grammatica of several registers.  Personally I love grammar, so I've never seen it as a problem to learn everything from archaic inflection to standard language to dialect. When I tell others about registers other than the standard, though, I try to mention it, to avoid confusion. 8)


 
I agree with Grytolle. First I also love studying grammar and then I find it more natural to learn the real spoken existing language and its real variants one can encounter than what only grammar books mention. If I studied Arabic I'd prefer the spoken dialectal Arabic than the formal written language.


----------



## Rutger

The problem, in my opinion, in studying various registers of the Dutch language, f.e. dialects, or slang, is that it may complicate things when you travel to another part of the "country" (i. e. Holland or Flanders). People from the coastal Belgian aerea do not understand people from the eastern parts of Flanders if they speak their proper dialect. The dialects are that different. Even on the Flemish T.V. (f.e. the journal) sometimes the conversations are subtitled in Dutch.


----------



## Grytolle

It's indeed a good idea to get a firm grip of the standard language before you start seriously on substandards


----------



## Encolpius

Grytolle said:


> It's indeed a good idea to get a firm grip of the standard language before you start seriously on substandards


 

Is there a real spoken "standard" language???


----------



## Grytolle

Encolpius said:


> Is there a real spoken "standard" language???


Sure, there's a prescriptive tradition. Word lists tell you which words are standard, there are pronounciation guides to find, and grammar books tell you about the correct grammar. I'm no fan of it, but there *is* a well defined standard.


----------



## gelooff

I think indeed that Dutch is the rare exception where the standard Dutch is also the practical standard. In Belgium, dialects are much more normal and generally accepted than in the Netherlands. Speaking dialect in Holland can be a serious handicap if trying to make a career, because people will experience is as 'not being able to speak proper Dutch', and thus disqualify you. This is why, if you plan to use Dutch in Holland, I would stick to standard Dutch and forget all dialects or Belgium inclinations. Unless you study language as a science, like Encolpius. The other way around, Belgiums will accept standard Dutch more easily then the Dutch will accept Flemish.


----------



## Rutger

In fact, the standardrules between the Netherlands and Belgium differ. Let me explain, and go back with you till 1585, when Antwerp falls back to the Spaniards. From then on, Flanders and Holland go their own way. Holland starts to develop a standard Dutch language, whilst in Flanders dialects reign till the end of the 19th, the beginning of the 20th century. A first attempt to have a Dutchspeaking university in Flanders dates from the first World War (with a little help from the Germans), in Gent. The development of a standard Dutch (with more strict rules than in Holland) only dates from the 20th century, about 400 years after the fall of Antwerp.


----------



## Frank06

Hi,


Rutger said:


> In fact, the standardrules between the Netherlands and Belgium differ.


Which ones? 
And how would you rate the differences?



> Let me explain, and go back with you till 1585, when Antwerp falls back to the Spaniards. From then on, Flanders and Holland go their own way.


What do you mean by Flanders in this historical context?



> The development of a standard Dutch (with more strict rules than in Holland) only dates from the 20th century, about 400 years after the fall of Antwerp.


Why more strict and which ones?

And can you also please clarify how this pertains to the topic of this thread, viz. _Learning_ Standard Dutch and/or dialect?

Groetjes,

Frank


----------



## Rutger

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Which ones?
> And how would you rate the differences?
> 
> 
> What do you mean by Flanders in this historical context?
> 
> 
> Why more strict and which ones?
> 
> And can you also please clarify how this pertains to the topic of this thread, viz. _Learning_ Standard Dutch and/or dialect?
> 
> Groetjes,
> 
> Frank



The differences between standard rules in Holland and the ones in Flanders are particularly pronunciation differences. The rules applied in Holland, and developing since 1585 are less strict than the same rules in Flanders. To find examples, it might take some time. We discussed these rules at university (in my case about 24 years ago).

Flanders in this historical context corresponds with the modern meaning of the word, as far as it was occupied by the Spaniards after 1585. 

Why I put this post here ? Please forgive me if it does not really belong here, but it came to my mind when reading above about standard Dutch and dialects, and differences between Holland and Flanders.


----------

