# A superior man is modest in his speech



## Akumakuragari

Hello All,
I'm playing online and I would like to write on my profile the following quote from confucius which I think is really true for online video game playing (and make think other people) : 
" A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions." confucius
Could you please help me to translate this sentence in japanese ?
Many thanks


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## YangMuye

Original Chinese text: 子曰、「君子恥其言而過其行」。
Japanese kundoku: 子曰く、「君子は其の言の其の行に過ぐるを恥ず」と。
Maybe writing 君子ハ其ノ言ノ其ノ行ニ過グルヲ恥ヅ looks more awesome.


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## Schokolade

http://www.ieconsultants.co.jp/pdf/130.pdf　とはまた違うものなのでしょうか・・・


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## Akumakuragari

YangMuye and Schokolade, many thanks for your suggestion I really appreciate
Bye


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## Flaminius

YangMuye said:


> Original Chinese text: 子曰、「君子恥其言而過其行」。
> Japanese kundoku: 子曰く、「君子は其の言の其の行に過ぐるを恥ず」と。


I am just wondering if 過ぐるを恥ず is an accurate translation of the original text.  I know it's the traditional _kambun_ thing, so I won't argue it's wrong.  Still, I cannot remember a construction that would make the whole 其言而過其行 an object of 恥.


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## YangMuye

I think there is nothing wrong to consider 其言而過其行 as the object of 恥.

The only confusing thing to me is the usage of *而*. One may read 
①其の　言ひ*て*其の行に過ぐるを　恥づ
②其の　言*の*其の行に過ぐるを　恥づ
③其の言*の*　其の行に過ぐるを　恥づ
or even (without considering the meaningfulness)
④其の言を恥ぢ(とし)*て*、其の行を過ちとす
...
I'm not sure the exact meaning of 而. It sounds to me like "だが", which is just another subject(or topic/background) marker. Maybe we can read it as something like “言にして其の行に過ぐる”.
However some books suggest it means の, which I really doubt.

EDIT:
It seems that, there is another reading: 君子は、其の言に恥じて、其の行に過ぐ。
朱熹 said: 





> 行、去聲。恥者、不敢盡之意。過者、欲有餘之辭. (「恥」は「言い尽くさない」の意味。「過」は「余分にする」の意味)


But the usage is not common.


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## Schokolade

Sorry if I'm off the point but...

 "A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions" = "君子欲訥於言而敏於行"(論語・里仁4-22) 

and, 

"A superior man is ashamed if his words outshine his actions" = "君子恥其言而過其行"(論語・憲問14-29)

I guess...?


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## YangMuye

Schokolade said:


> Sorry if I'm off the point but...
> 
> "A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions" = "君子欲訥於言而敏於行"(論語・里仁4-22)
> 
> and,
> 
> "A superior man is ashamed if his words outshine his actions" = "君子恥其言而過其行"(論語・憲問14-29)
> 
> I guess...?


I don't know. Some resources claim it is from 里仁24, some say it from 憲問29.
It seems to be a free translation of this reading:


			
				yangmuye said:
			
		

> It seems that, there is another reading: 君子は、其の言に恥じて、其の行に過ぐ。
> 朱熹 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 朱熹 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 行、去聲。恥者、不敢盡之意。過者、欲有餘之辭. (「恥」は「言い尽くさない」の意味。「過」は「余分にする」の意味)
Click to expand...


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## Flaminius

而 usually coordinates two similar constructions but I have seen other usages, very difficult to formalise without actually knowing Chinese.

*Schokolade* suggested #7 that the phrase in question is related to another passage in the Analects.  君子欲訥於言而敏於行 clearly has a parallelism between 訥於言 and 敏於行.  而 intercedes the two clauses.  It's rational to expect the same function for 而 in 恥其言而過其行.

By the note on the meaning of 恥, we know that 朱熹 understood this passage as a parallelism.  I am not going to oppose his erudition here.  

*YangMuye*, once in a while kundoku's are more flowing in Japanese than accurate in translation.  For 憲問29, I don't think much accuracy is sacrificed for the sake of stylistics.


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## Akumakuragari

Hi,
Thanks all for your help. Then I've 2 questions :
1- Finally what is the best suggestion among all of your tries ?
2- I saw that confucius in japanese is 孔子instead of 子曰く...

Regards


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## YangMuye

Flaminius said:
			
		

> 而 usually coordinates two similar constructions but I have seen other usages, very difficult to formalise without actually knowing Chinese.By the note on the meaning of 恥, we know that 朱熹 understood this passage as a parallelism. I am not going to oppose his erudition here.


In fact, 朱熹 is very famous for his arbitrary annotation. 
Texts written 2000 years ago(=上代中国語) have not been not fully deciphered. There are many different ideas. I don't agree with 朱熹's interpretation.
I don't agree with the most popular understanding, which takes 而 as 之(or even allege that it was a typo), either, because it is the only example of this use throughout 論語.

Anyway, I agree that kundoku is not translation. The accuracy seldom matters.


> 1- Finally what is the best suggestion among all of your tries ?


Both versions are not translations from your English text, so the meaning might be a litter different from your sentence.
If you want to express something like “Talk less and do more”“talking is rarely helpful”, then I (personally) think “君子は言に訥にして行に敏ならんと欲す” is better.
If you want to express something like “Act as your say”“Don't just talk big”, “君子は其の言の其の行に過ぐるを恥ず” is better.


> 2- I saw that confucius in japanese is 孔子instead of 子曰く...


子曰く literally means “master's saying”, which is an old grammar to introduce a quotation.


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## Flaminius

A note in case: What I say below does not deal with what the best translation of the phrase is.  It's more like a nitpicking.



> In fact, 朱熹 is very famous for his arbitrary annotation.


Even if he has to be taken cum grano salis, he seems to be rational in the case at hand.  First, I count the parallel phrase in his favour.  Second, Bone Oracle studies reveal that the etymological meaning of the character 過 is excessiveness.  I am not sure if it is agreed upon by majority of the scholars, but this fits very well to other uses of 過 in 論語 and other 四書五経.  If, therefore, half of his commentary is correct, it is all the more likely that so is the other half.


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