# anne ve baba



## eximun

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could tell where the Turkish word for 'mother' comes from. It doesn't seem to be of Indo-European origin, it's not Arabic either. Maybe it's just a Turkish word, but it sounds so deceptively similar to the female name that has a Hebrew origin (meaning 'grace') that I can't stop wondering whether there is any actual connection. Baba is from French, isn't it? so here at least there's no doubt (though Arabs use the same word, colloquially, so maybe it's actually not French?) Thanks...


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## dudasd

There's already a thread partly dealing with it, see "mother" in Etimology and History of Languages section. And no, "anne" has nothing with Hannah, as well as Turkish "baba" has nothing with French. (Compare meaning of "baba" in Slavic languages, or even better Slavic "ded, dyad" with Turkish "dede" and English "Dad" - that type of "coincidental simillarities" is mostly a product of limmited apparatus of babies.)


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## eximun

Yes, I've gone through the posts there, but there's no reference to the Turkish word, except that it's 'ame' in Burmese, which sounds slightly similar. If it's not related to 'Hanna' then what is it to? Now, I don't see how 'baba' is related to Slavic equivalents, in Polish for example 'baba' is a colloquial expression for an old woman or a man who behaves like a woman!. I think it is French after all, Arabic speakers have extreme difficulties pronouncing the voiceless 'p' ( 'p' and 'b' are the same letter pronounced as 'b') therefore 'papa' became 'baba'.  And that's possibly why it's used this way in Arabic and Turkish nowadays. Obviously this is just my theory, I may be completely wrong, appreciate help if anyone knows the origin of the words. Thanks again.


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## dudasd

The point of "baba" with different meanings in Slavic languages and Turkish was just one of the countless examples of limited number of consonants/sonants that babies can pronounce. On the top of the list there are m, b, p, d, t, n (if I remember well, for I was researching that topic years ago), so there are not so many possible combinations. Words for the closest family members (often including the words for nanny, interesting) - or their diminutives in children language - usually consist of that small number of sounds.

Concerning Turkish "baba", compare ancient Farsi baba/babu; Japanese papa, etc. Also you can check in any etymologic dictionary and you will find that it's of Turkish (and going further, of Altaic) origin. It developed quite separately from French "papa" (if we leave the theory of the "primal language" apart).


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## avok

The Turkish word for mother is "anne" or "ana". Ana is usually used in Anatolian speech. Now, as mentioned before, words of the child language like "dad,mom,mama etc.." are universal. So any similarity among those "first words" of the child is considered, by linguists, as nothing but the sounds that babies make or something like that.
So even if the Turkish word "baba" is a borrowed word from another language, we won't be able to prove it, because it is baby talk ! Babies talk the same way all around the world 

By the way, the oldest Turkish word for mother is "ög"! It survives in the word "öksüz" (mother-less, i.e. orphan) 

*Anatolian languages: mother *should be the thread that you are looking for. You will see not just the Hebrew word you mentioned but the Hittite word "anna" for mother !! is like the Turkish word "anne/ana". My funny theory is that the Turkic peoples of Anatolia changed the word ana to anne in favour of the Hittite word "anna" ! 

I have always been interested in the Turkish word "anne" because being an old Turkish/Altaic word, it does not comply with the "vowel harmony" (the big vowel harmony) that's to say, if the word "anne" had complied with the vowel harmony, then it would have been "ann*a*". ("e, i, ö, ü" cant come after "a": a rule of the vowel harmony...)


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## orhan

Turkish word "ana and baba" come from Ouigour language.


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## eximun

Thanks a lot gentlemen (I gather there are no ladies here, I appologize if I'm wrong). I was interested in the etymology of the word anne precisely because it doesn't follow the vowel harmony and there is a double consonant as well hence it is probably not an old Turkish word. Avok, if it is indeed 'anna' in Hittie then  I guess that's it. 
What did they sound like in Ouigour language?


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## seyyah

eximun said:


> Thanks a lot gentlemen (I gather there are no ladies here, I appologize if I'm wrong). I was interested in the etymology of the word anne precisely because it doesn't follow the vowel harmony and there is a double consonant as well hence it is probably not an old Turkish word. Avok, if it is indeed 'anna' in Hittie then  I guess that's it.
> What did they sound like in Ouigour language?



Hi eximun,
There are some perfectly good Turkish words that do not follow vowel harmony. Some are: "inanç/inanmak", "elma", "hangi", "hani" and a few more which I can't think of right now.

Vowel harmony in other Turkish languages is not as perfect as in Turkish: Azeri has another vowel (ə), Uzbek doesn't have it at all, but its close relative, Uyghur, does.

So just because "anne" doesn't conform to vowel harmony doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have Turkic roots.

PS. My Uzbek dictionary gives "ona" as "mother", so I doubt the Hittite theory. In Uzbek the "o" is the Turkish "a", while "a" is between Turkish "a" and "e" (perhaps the same as the Azeri "ə", but I don't know).


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## avok

seyyah said:


> PS. My Uzbek dictionary gives "ona" as "mother", so I doubt the Hittite theory. In Uzbek the "o" is the Turkish "a", while "a" is between Turkish "a" and "e" (perhaps the same as the Azeri "ə", but I don't know).


 
The hittite theory is about the double "n" of "a*nn*e" not about "ana". Ana is pure Turkic.


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## seyyah

avok said:


> The hittite theory is about the double "n" of "a*nn*e" not about "ana". Ana is pure Turkic.



That's me not reading carefully ...


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## avok

seyyah said:


> That's me not reading carefully ...


 
It is not even a theory just a guess


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## rogergcam

About Anne being mother, 
in Kazakhstan , I was told that many world
peoples and religions had their genesis 
in the Altai mountain region, including: 
Turkic, Jewish (Kazars), Mongolian,
Mordvins (Finno-Ugric) proto-Celtic, 
Sacas and maybe Aryans.

There are many Turkic words in English, 
e.g. boy, girl, beer, couch, coach, caviar, 
Adam (man), and Eva (wife  I think).


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## seyyah

rogergcam said:


> About Anne being mother,
> in Kazakhstan , I was told that many world
> peoples and religions had their genesis
> in the Altai mountain region, including:
> Turkic, Jewish (Kazars), Mongolian,
> Mordvins (Finno-Ugric) proto-Celtic,
> Sacas and maybe Aryans.
> 
> There are many Turkic words in English,
> e.g. boy, girl, beer, couch, coach, caviar,
> Adam (man), and Eva (wife  I think).



I think these are all rather dubious claims not to be taken too seriously!


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## Tangriberdi

Anne is Istanbulite form of Ana, which is archaic but not obsolete. Ana is a Turkic word as far as I know. Other than archaic ana and standard istanbulite anne, ene is known to be found in Anatolian dialects. 
On the other hand baba is also a Turkic word. But it went through a meaning shift. In old Anatolian Turkish it used to mean grandfather just like many other Turkic languages. However, under Persian influence its meaning shifted to father. In Persian Bâbâ is informal way to say father. Before baba (grandfather) in Turkish shifted its meaning under Persian influence Ata was used to mean father, still can be seen in the proper name Atatürk, Father of Turks. Now ata ( father ) means forefather, which is another meaning shift.

To the hittite theory-guy: Hittites did not survived to see any Turk in Anatolia, when the very first Turk ever arrived at Anatolia all the hittites had been long gone and became Greeks. So your theory is actually impossible and just a folk ethymology.


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