# 就 / 已经 (to emphasise earliness)



## DernierVirage

大家好！

I am doing some grammar revision and am having trouble with the following sentences, I hope that you can help me.

If I want to emphasise the completion of an action earlier than anticipated, which of the two sentences below is the more appropriate to use (and is there a significant difference in meaning in your view)?

他怎么现在就回来了？*or*

他怎么已经回来了？

Also, am I right in saying that if the first sentence above were written as follows, « 他怎么现在就回来？ » then the implication would be that the person has not yet arrived ?

Thanks very much for your help!


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## Jerry Chan

I'd probably say 他怎么现在就回来了？ or more specifically, 他怎么那么早就回来了？


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## DernierVirage

Jerry Chan said:


> I'd probably say 他怎么现在就回来了？ or more specifically, 他怎么那么早就回来了？


 
Thanks Jerry !

Are you saying that 已经 is best not used if we want to stress earliness and that it should just be kept for statements of fact, such as 我已经收到你的电邮 (or something along those lines)?


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## Jerry Chan

DernierVirage said:


> Thanks Jerry !
> 
> Are you saying that 已经 is best not used if we want to stress earliness and that it should just be kept for statements of fact, such as 我已经收到你的电邮 (or something along those lines)?



Yes. 怎么 + 已经 doesn't sound natural to me.
Maybe my personal preference though.


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## YangMuye

The 就 is needed when you want to emphasize the relation between "现在" and "回来了".
You can also say "他怎么现在就已经回来了", it sounds like that you have just realized that “他已经回来了”.
You say 他怎么现在就回来了 when you see the thing happens.

他怎么现在就回来 does not sound good, I can't understand the meaning.
You may say 他怎么现在就*要*回来.


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## thedean515

If I want to emphasise the completion of an action earlier than anticipated, which of the two sentences below is the more appropriate to use (and is there a significant difference in meaning in your view)?

他怎么现在就回来了？*or*

他怎么已经回来了？

Your question depends on the context, and in some contexts both are acceptable. For example, while A is talking to B, A saw C and said to B "他(C)怎么现在就回来了？" . Similarly, it is also acceptable if A is asking him/herself when A saw C come back.

Hope these make sense.

Also, am I right in saying that if the first sentence above were written as follows, « 他怎么现在就回来？ » then the implication would be that the person has not yet arrived ?


No. When people say "怎么现在就回来了?" (I think better with 了 at the end) normally based on assumption 回来了 is true. In addition, 回来了 mean arrived, thus the implication would be that person has arrived.

I am a native Chinese speaker but not a Chinese teacher, these are my personal views.

Cheers.


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## DernierVirage

YangMuye said:


> The 就 is needed when you want to emphasize the relation between "现在" and "回来了".
> You can also say "他怎么现在就已经回来了", it sounds like that you have just realized that “他已经回来了”.
> You say 他怎么现在就回来了 when you see the thing happens.
> 
> 他怎么现在就回来 does not sound good, I can't understand the meaning.
> You may say 他怎么现在就*要*回来.


 
Thanks for your helpful reply, I will study these examples carefully. Also, I have reread my opening post and it is now clear to me that "他怎么现在就回来" is not meaningful, as you say.

Where you say above "The 就 is needed when you want to emphasize the relation between "现在" and "回来了".", is this why you would normally say "我已经收到你的电邮", rather than "我就收到了你的电邮"?

Can I also ask you a follow up question about your final example above, "他怎么现在就*要*回来". Is the meaning of this sentence the same as if I said "他怎么还没回来"?



thedean515 said:


> ......
> 
> 他怎么现在就回来了？*or*
> 
> 他怎么已经回来了？
> 
> Your question depends on the context, and in some contexts both are acceptable. For example, while A is talking to B, A saw C and said to B "他(C)怎么现在就回来了？" . Similarly, it is also acceptable if A is asking him/herself when A saw C come back.
> 
> Hope these make sense.


 
Thanks for your reply, I have copied above the part where I would like to double check with you on one point. You say that in some contexts both sentences are acceptable, could you give me an example where it would be OK to say "他怎么已经回来了？".Thanks in advance!


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## thedean515

DernierVirage said:


> Can I also ask you a follow up question about your final example above, "他怎么现在就*要*回来". Is the meaning of this sentence the same as if I said "他怎么还没回来"?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your reply, I have copied above the part where I would like to double check with you on one point. You say that in some contexts both sentences are acceptable, could you give me an example where it would be OK to say "他怎么已经回来了？".Thanks in advance!



For example, when A is having a fair with B in A's bedroom, and suddenly A feel C is inside the house. At that point, A might say  "他怎么已经回来了？"

Hope this helps


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## DernierVirage

thedean515 said:


> For example, when A is having a fair with B in A's bedroom, and suddenly A feel C is inside the house. At that point, A might say "他怎么已经回来了？"
> 
> Hope this helps


 
Thanks for your reply. I am maybe being a bit stupid, but I can't see the difference between your example above and "他怎么现在就回来了？" - both sentences use 怎么to add stress and I can't see any real difference in in meaning. Maybe, as Jerry Chan said in his reply above, it is also a matter of personal preference? I'm of course not doubting a native speaker, I'm just trying to fully understand 

I'd also be interested in your idea about the two following sentences - do you consider that they both carry the same meaning?:

你的电邮我已经收到了
你的电邮我就收到了

I would instinctively use the first option, but I can't explain why!

Thanks for your help!


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## YangMuye

抱歉我用中文寫。

在我看來，以下句子都是正確的：
1a. 他回來了。
2a. 他現在回來了。 
3a. 他已經回來了。
4a. 他現在已經回來了。
1a 聽起來是在描述“事件的發生”，“有沒有發生”。大概相當於英文的簡單過去時。
2a 聽起來是在描述“事件的階段”，“有沒有完成”“結果是否還在延續”。大概相當於英文的現在完成時。
3a “已經”表示強調說話時，或之前一點，就處於“事件完成”“結果仍在”的狀態。
4a 同 3a一樣。

中文沒有時態，所以1a 2a都可以理解過去或現在，即兩者相同。只是一般傾向於上述解釋。

1b. 他怎麼回來了？
2b. 他怎麼現在回來了。 
3b. 他怎麼已經回來了。
4b. 他怎麼現在已經回來了。

這四句是在得知1~4a時後，表示自己認爲不應該這樣，要求對方解釋。可能是意外，也可能是斥責。也可能是單純的疑問。
3~4b 同 1~2b的區別在於，3~4b認爲他可能會回來，但不應該是現在。

1c. 他就回來了。
2c. 他就現在回來了。 
3c. 他就已經回來了。
4c. 他就現在已經回來了。
5c. 他現在就回來了。
6c. 他現在就要回來了。
7c. 他已經就(要)回來了。
8c. 他現在就已經回來了。

“就”表明“就”之前的部分和之後的部分的“某種”必然聯係。具體有哪些，我也不清楚
這幾句沒有上下文，非常不好理解。
1c 可能是上文交待了原因。也可能同6c。
2c 可能也是上文交待了原因。
3c 同 8c。
4c 聽起來非常費解，似乎前文是對“現在已經回來了”作出解釋。“所以，他就……”的感覺。
5c 可能同8c，也可能同6c
6c 就之前加上時間，表示之後的事件會緊接着發生。重音在“就”上。
7c 這句話強調已經處於“就要来”的狀態。可能強調表示狀況無可挽回。
8c 這句話不表示之後的事件會緊接着發生，而是強調在“某個時刻”就已經發生了，而不是更晚的某個時刻。比如有人問“他什麼時候回來？”說明他還以爲是將来的某個時刻，此時，你可以說“他現在就已經回來了”。
除了4c十分不自然，其它的句子都可以用。此外，我個人語感，“(要)”字最好加上。

1d. 他怎麼就回來了？
2d. 他怎麼就現在回來了。 
3d. 他怎麼就已經回來了。
4d. 他怎麼就現在已經回來了。
5d. 他怎麼現在就回來了。
6d. 他怎麼現在就要回來了。
7d. 他怎麼已經就(要)回來了。
8d. 他怎麼現在就已經回來了。

1-4d就強調“怎麼”和之後情況的聯係。其實“怎麼就”是個慣用語，它就是表明你想不出原因，認爲“不應該”會這樣。
5~8d 同5~8c。

所以您的句子“你的电邮我就收到了”當成1c的用法理解肯定不通，只能當成8c的用法理解。表示收到的不是別的東西，而是電郵。但必須有上下文才通。


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## DernierVirage

YangMuye said:


> 抱歉我用中文寫。


 
No problem, my reading is better than my self-expression in Chinese 

Thanks for taking the time to send me so much detailed information, I will need to study it carefully now!

Thanks again.


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## DernierVirage

YangMuye: I have carefully checked your very clear explanations, which are very useful - thanks. Can I just check the following points with you? 

1. Would you say that 3a and 4a have basically the same meaning?

2. My real difficulty is with 6c and 7c, concerning your use of 要. When I see 要 here, it makes me think that the event has not yet happened, which of course is not the case. Could you explain a bit more the usage of 要 here, and maybe also explain the difference in meaning between 5c and 6c?

Thanks very much for your kind help.


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## YangMuye

5c 6c，你可以把“就”理解爲“之後馬上”，所以“要”在這裡不是必須的。
7c我的感覺，不加“要”，意思就不太明白。可能是有“已經”的綠故。
有時候，中文表逹將来必須加“要”“會”表示將来，有時什麼都不用加。我也不清楚什麼時候要用。


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## BODYholic

Both of your sentences can be used to serve your intended purpose aptly. However, it is very important to note the point of time you make the comment.

Example,
Your brother said he's going out and won't be back until 10pm that night.

1. 你怎么现在就回来了?
You were at home. when your brother eventually stepped in the house at 9pm. You can say "你怎么现在(9pm)就回来了?(而不是10pm)"

2. 你怎么已经回来了?
You finished your work and returned home at 9pm. Upon entering your house, you met your brother who supposedly wouldn't be back till after 10pm. You can say "你怎么已经回来了?". In this scenario, it is incorrect to say "你怎么现在(9pm)就回来了?" because you don't really know what time your brother came home since you arrived later than him.



DernierVirage said:


> 大家好！
> 
> I am doing some grammar revision and am having trouble with the following sentences, I hope that you can help me.
> 
> If I want to emphasise the completion of an action earlier than anticipated, which of the two sentences below is the more appropriate to use (and is there a significant difference in meaning in your view)?
> 
> 他怎么现在就回来了？*or*
> 
> 他怎么已经回来了？
> 
> Also, am I right in saying that if the first sentence above were written as follows, « 他怎么现在就回来？ » then the implication would be that the person has not yet arrived ?
> 
> Thanks very much for your help!


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## DernierVirage

Bodyholic: thanks for these examples. In other words, 就and 已经 are not interchangeable? As regards the examples in YangMuye's message #10, does this distintion apply also?

Thanks for your kind help.


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## wuqiuyong

TS:you are all right.

他怎么现在就回来？ may be used on the condition that you know someone is coming back, but not arrived yet.


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## BODYholic

DernierVirage said:


> 就and 已经 are not interchangeable?



No, that's not what I meant. 就, as an adverb, has a few meanings. When it takes on the meaning of "already", one may interchange it with 已经 which also has the meaning of "already".

E.g.
哥哥七点就到家了。
哥哥七点已经到家了。

我就知道华语并非一朝一夕能学会的。
我已经知道华语并非一朝一夕能学会的。


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## DernierVirage

BODYholic said:


> No, that's not what I meant. 就, as an adverb, has a few meanings. When it takes on the meaning of "already", one may interchange it with 已经 which also has the meaning of "already".
> 
> E.g.
> 哥哥七点就到家了。
> 哥哥七点已经到家了。
> 
> 我就知道华语并非一朝一夕能学会的。
> 我已经知道华语并非一朝一夕能学会的。


 
Thanks for your reply. My brain must be working slowly today, because I am having a bit of trouble in understanding the difference between your comment above (that I have marked in red) and what you said in your previous message (see below, with relevant part also in red):



BODYholic said:


> Both of your sentences can be used to serve your intended purpose aptly. However, it is very important to note the point of time you make the comment.
> 
> Example,
> Your brother said he's going out and won't be back until 10pm that night.
> 
> 1. 你怎么现在就回来了?
> You were at home. when your brother eventually stepped in the house at 9pm. You can say "你怎么现在(9pm)就回来了?(而不是10pm)"
> 
> 2. 你怎么已经回来了?
> You finished your work and returned home at 9pm. Upon entering your house, you met your brother who supposedly wouldn't be back till after 10pm. You can say "你怎么已经回来了?". In this scenario, it is incorrect to say "你怎么现在(9pm)就回来了?" because you don't really know what time your brother came home since you arrived later than him.


 
In both these examples, 就 seems to have the meaning of "already".

Sorry if I am being a bit dense here


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## YangMuye

你可以認爲“已經”=already。
“就”是中文里特有的一個副詞，它是用来表明上下文（也可能是同一句）聯係的。往往表達了說話人心里的看法。所以你可以把“就”同“已經”連用，就像我上面的例子。

哥哥七点就到家了。（就表明七點早於自已的預期）
我就知道华语并非一朝一夕能学会的。（“我就知道”就表示“我早就知道”，“本来就知道”。往往是針對現在的情況，強調自已不是現在才知道，而是原本就知道。或者“果然不出我所料”的意思。你可以當成慣用句）

你怎么已经回来了?
說這句話時，人心里想的是：你應該還沒回来。但這和“你怎么现在就回来了”有什麼區別呢？
我的看法和BODYholic不一樣（或者說表達不一樣）。我認爲，“就”表明了你心理認爲“現在”對於“回来”來說太早了。而“已經”表明这件事情進行的階段是完成階段（你可以理解爲already + have done）。你如果你說“已經”，那不能表示你對前面時間副詞的看法（太早，太晚）。但可以表示你對事情進展的描述（“已經完成”“還未完成”）和看法（“太快”“太慢”）

你怎么已经回来了?
（你現在應該還沒回來。怎麼這麼快就回来了！。）
這是說話人對某時間事情進展的評估，而不是對某事件，發生時間的評價。

就的使用範圍比“已經”大得多，但通常前面的詞不能省略（有上下文時，時間可以省）。它強調主觀的看法比較多。
他出國後，就不認自已是中國人了。（如果沒就“就”，兩件事單純先後發生，似乎沒什麼聯係，人們有點理解不了你其實想說什麼。其實這種句子最好用“一…就”的句型，我這里只是爲了舉例。）
“已經”完全是客觀的描述。


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## BODYholic

BODYholic said:


> 2. 你怎么已经回来了?
> You finished your work and returned home at 9pm. Upon entering your house, you met your brother who supposedly wouldn't be back till after 10pm. You can say "你怎么已经回来了?". In this scenario, it is *incorrect* to say "你怎么现在(9pm)就回来了?" *because* you don't really know what time your brother came home since you *arrived later than him*.



The reason that "你怎么现在(9pm)就回来了?" can't be used in this situation is *not* because 已经 was replaced by 就, but the existence of the word "现在" caused a logical error.

"你怎么现在(9pm) 就回来了?"  -> Couldn't he be home at 730pm or earlier? 
The natural of way of saying should be "你怎么已经回来了?".
Added: Take note of the second paragraph of post #19 by YangMuye


*** *** *** ***
To make it more complicated and confusing, there are a few rare situations that the above sentence may be used.
1. Before you stepped in to your house, you received a call or sms (from your parents, for example, who were also at home) informing you that your brother just reached home at 9pm. Hence, it makes sense that when you subsequently entered your house and say "你怎么现在(9pm)就回来了?" to your brother. 

2. Another possibility is that you are making an assumption/wild guess that he has just arrived home at 9pm.

In my opinion, these uncommon scenario should be left out from this discussion.


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## YangMuye

再補充一點，“就”和“才”有時有相反的作用。“就”高於預期，“才”低於預期。
下加線的部分都是我認爲“就”和“才”限定的部分。

你怎麼現在就回來了？（太早了）
你怎麼現在才回來(了)？（太晚了）（加“了”有點不自然。但“开始回來”“剛剛回來”就可以）

“就”可以表逹“將來的短時間”，“才”可以表逹“過去的短時間”。他們都帶有一點說話人的感情在里面。
我才到家。我剛剛才到家。
我就到家(了)。我馬上就到家(了)。（不加“了”不太自然）


我就知道他不是好人。我原來就知道他不是好人。
我才知道他不是好人。我現在才知道他不是好人。

當然，“我才知道他不是好人。”也可能不是修飾省略了的時間，而是修飾“我”。比如這個對話：
a: (你們都不知道。只有)我才知道他不是好人。
b: (你說得不對，)我就(也)知道他不是好人。
這幾句話是我爲了舉例，故意弄成相同句式的。正常說話不會只靠這一個詞來區別。

總之，“就” 和 “已經” 是不同類型的詞。


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## BODYholic

BODYholic said:


> No, that's not what I meant. 就, as an adverb, has a few meanings. When it takes on the meaning of "already", one may interchange it with 已经 which also has the meaning of "already".





			
				YangMuye said:
			
		

> 總之，“就” 和 “已經” 是不同類型的詞。


DernierVirage,
Knowing your habitual way of picking up contradictory posts in all your past questions, I'll just have to jump the gun before you even ask.

I said "已经" and "就" may be interchanged but in a restrictive sense. In particular, it should fit the condition stated as above. 

YangMuye regards "已经" and "就" as different words in a broader sense. As can be seen from his examples, "就", as an adverb, also means "shortly", "as soon as", "then" & etc.


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## DernierVirage

BODYholic said:


> DernierVirage,
> Knowing your habitual way of picking up contradictory posts in all your past questions, I'll just have to jump the gun before you even ask.
> 
> I said "已经" and "就" may be interchanged but in a restrictive sense. In particular, it should fit the condition stated as above.
> 
> YangMuye regards "已经" and "就" as different words in a broader sense. As can be seen from his examples, "就", as an adverb, also means "shortly", "as soon as", "then" & etc.


 
I see that you are getting to know me ; I had in fact already noted these points earlier this evening and I was intending to double check the related posts again tomorrow and then ask you and YangMuye again if I was still unsure, so thanks for saving me some time and effort !

Thanks for your message above, which makes things very clear. Also thanks, more generally, to you and to YangMuye for the detailed information and comments in your recent replies. I have printed out these replies and I am slowly working through them, to try to get a really good grip of the nuances and fine shades of meaning. It's hard work, but it's worth making the effort!


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## YangMuye

因爲我不是語言學家，所以總結得很粗糙。

我剛才看到一篇論文，描述了“就”和“才”的關係和作用。
除我上面講到的“‘就’‘才’表明前後聯係”和 “‘就’高於預期，‘才’低於預期”外，它還描述了“就”可以用於“前指”和“後指”（就是我提到的重音位置）。
您可以參考一下。

此外，您可以在google上搜索以下一個或多個關鍵字：


> “就”
> “才”
> “都”
> 副詞
> 主觀量
> 語義
> 情态


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## BODYholic

YangMuye said:


> 我剛才看到一篇論文，描述了“就”和“才”的關係和作用。



DernierVirage,
This is exactly what I meant in post#14. While 2 sentences may have the same meaning when they are quoted out of context (i.e. in absolute sense/value), they may become illogical at the point of speaking (i.e. reference point / 参照值).



			
				BODYholic said:
			
		

> Both of your sentences can be used to serve your intended purpose aptly.  However, it is very important to note the point of time you make the  comment.


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## DernierVirage

BODYholic said:


> DernierVirage,
> This is exactly what I meant in post#14. While 2 sentences may have the same meaning when they are quoted out of context (i.e. in absolute sense/value), they may become illogical at the point of speaking (i.e. reference point / 参照值).


 
Indeed, this point has come up in a previous thread, where the grammatical subtleties need to be seen in context, not in absolute terms.

I've reread all the material in this thread and I am starting to feel comfortable with the overall situation, especially with the various examples. Thanks a lot for your time and trouble!



YangMuye said:


> 因爲我不是語言學家，所以總結得很粗糙。
> 
> 我剛才看到一篇論文，描述了“就”和“才”的關係和作用。
> 除我上面講到的“‘就’‘才’表明前後聯係”和 “‘就’高於預期，‘才’低於預期”外，它還描述了“就”可以用於“前指”和“後指”（就是我提到的重音位置）。
> 您可以參考一下。
> 
> 此外，您可以在google上搜索以下一個或多個關鍵字：


 
It's interesting that you mention 就 and 才 here, as I am actually intending at some point to ask for some help here with these two terms (in particular, there are some situations where 才 is used, but where I would logically expect to see 就). As Bodyholic syas, the precise context is crucial, so I need to prepare my question on this subject well before posting it.

Thanks again for all your help on the usage of 就and 已经, much appreciated.


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