# Urdu: aatash vs aatish



## Qureshpor

kyaa aap "aat*a*sh-daan" yaa "aat*i*sh-daan" meN aag sulgaa'eN ge yaa kih aap kaheN ge "donoN jaa'eN bhaaR meN, maiN to chuulhe meN aag sulgaa'uuN gaa/gii!"?


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## UrduMedium

_aatish-daan_ for me. The only time I use aatash is when referring to Khwaaja Haider Ali Aatash.


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## lcfatima

Aatish is a very old word from Farsi but someone told me once that there is a Sanskrit cognate of aatish that means not fire but fireworks, and said this is the word used for the fireworks from Ganesh's trunk. Does anyone know if this is the case?


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## marrish

I've always thought that the correct form was _aat*a*sh_ but I'm not so sure any more. I've always pronounced it with ''a'' but in Persian we say always _aat*e*sh _so I don't know whether the vowel shift occured from -i- to -e- or from -a- to -e-.


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## BP.

^I think you were right about it being aatash. But the question here is specific to either a (jet engine) flame-holder or a (kitchen) stove.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> _aatish-daan_ for me. The only time I use aatash is when referring to Khwaaja Haider Ali Aatash.



Interesting reply! So, if it is someone's name (a proper noun), then it is "aatash" aur haath taapne ke liye "aatish"? Should n't both be the same?


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I've always thought that the correct form was _aat*a*sh_ but I'm not so sure any more. I've always pronounced it with ''a'' but in Persian we say always _aat*e*sh _so I don't know whether the vowel shift occured from -i- to -e- or from -a- to -e-.



Is that so?

Hariis-o-jahaaNsoz-o-sark*ash* ma-baash
zi xaak aafriidand-at aat*ash* ma-baash

Sa'di

diivaanah-am zi xaanah mushavv*ash* bar-aamadah
tuufaan-am az tannuur-i-pur-aat*ash* bar-aamadah

Naziiri


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> ^I think you were right about it being aatash. But the question here is specific to either a (jet engine) flame-holder or a (kitchen) stove.



No, BP SaaHib, that was all for "padding"!


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## Qureshpor

marrish said:


> I've always thought that the correct form was _aat*a*sh_ but I'm not so sure any more. .



Well let us see, if janaab-i-Jur'at agrees with you or not.

aah, tan soz-i-daruuN se shakl-i-aat*ash* hai miraa
dil kisii aat*ash* ke parkaale pah jo Gh*ash* hai miraa


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> Interesting reply! So, if it is someone's name (a proper noun), then it is "aatash" aur haath taapne ke liye "aatish"? Should n't both be the same?


 I was corrected about Aatash (poet) at some point. In literary context it makes sense to stick to the right pronunciation. In everyday use, Aatish is so widespread and I am so used to it that changing it there will add a sense of pretension to it, which takes away from the spirit of a casual exchange. Plus there is a difference between being wrong and being not the preferred pronunciation. I think you were more accommodating on the saahab pronunciation if large number of native speakers say it so. Same at work here, perhaps? 

Secondly names are special cases. If two people with the same name spelling demand that I pronounce their names differently, prudence and courtesy requires I do that. One may prefer to be known as Ramzaan, and the other Ramadaan. Why should I insist on a name that the person does not associate with. A Shahiid-ur-Rahmaan who likes to go by Sahiidur, respect and courtesy demands that I call him Sahiidur.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> I was corrected about Aatash (poet) at some point. In literary context it makes sense to stick to the right pronunciation. In everyday use, Aatish is so widespread and I am so used to it that changing it there will add a sense of pretension to it, which takes away from the spirit of a casual exchange. Plus there is a difference between being wrong and being not the preferred pronunciation. I think you were more accommodating on the saahab pronunciation if large number of native speakers say it so. Same at work here, perhaps?



It was just a rhetorical question, no more. Hopefully, as the thread progresses, we shall reach some form of consensus. It is part of my nature to accommodate!


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## marrish

QURESHPOR said:


> Is that so?
> 
> Hariis-o-jahaaNsoz-o-sark*ash* ma-baash
> zi xaak aafriidand-at aat*ash* ma-baash
> 
> Sa'di
> 
> diivaanah-am zi xaanah mushavv*ash* bar-aamadah
> tuufaan-am az tannuur-i-pur-aat*ash* bar-aamadah
> 
> Naziiri



I wasn't precise enough, it seems. I used the ''e'' in the Persian transcription because it differs from the Urdu ''a''. Of course it is not equivalent to Urdu ''e'' - it is a short sound and you are right to point it out. It is equivalent to Urdu ''a''. The example of prosody from Sa'di convinced me. So I think in Urdu it should be aatash, but the question remains how it happened that it is ubiquitously pronounced as aatish in Urdu. Maybe following the pattern of _kaavish, ranjish, __bandish, _ etc.?


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## marrish

UrduMedium said:


> Secondly names are special cases. If two people with the same name spelling demand that I pronounce their names differently, prudence and courtesy requires I do that. One may prefer to be known as Ramzaan, and the other Ramadaan. Why should I insist on a name that the person does not associate with. A Shahiid-ur-Rahmaan who likes to go by Sahiidur, respect and courtesy demands that I call him Sahiidur.


In the same way, I wouldn't dare calling somebody named Aasif as Asaf, simply because that person's name is Aasif, not Asaf, whatever the etymology might have been.


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## Qureshpor

Farhang-i-Asifiyyah's complier is of the view that even in Persian, the word is "aatish" and the reason why we find "aatash" in Persian classical poetry is due to poetic licence, i.e a poet's desire to rhyme "aatish" with "-ash" ending words. It would be interesting to see if there are such occurrences in Persian poetry where verbal nouns ending in "-ish" (e.g, maalish) are rhymed with "aatish".

Nur-ul-LuGhaat gives both aatash and aatish as "fasiiH".


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## Wolverine9

lcfatima said:


> Aatish is a very old word from Farsi but someone told me once that there is a Sanskrit cognate of aatish that means not fire but fireworks, and said this is the word used for the fireworks from Ganesh's trunk. Does anyone know if this is the case?



There is no such Sanskrit word.  Sanskrit doesn't have a cognate to _aatish _(Platts' suggestion is incorrect/outdated).


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## Wolverine9

marrish said:


> I wasn't precise enough, it seems. I used the ''e'' in the Persian transcription because it differs from the Urdu ''a''. Of course it is not equivalent to Urdu ''e'' - it is a short sound and you are right to point it out. It is equivalent to Urdu ''a''. The example of prosody from Sa'di convinced me. So I think in Urdu it should be aatash, but the question remains how it happened that it is ubiquitously pronounced as aatish in Urdu. Maybe following the pattern of _kaavish, ranjish, __bandish, _ etc.?



I think both _aatash _and _aatish _are correct in Urdu.  In Persian, _aatesh _is the prevalent pronunciation (_aatish _in Steingass).  The variation can be explained by examining the evolution of the word, which from Old Iranian to Modern is as follows:

_aatarsh _--> _aataxsh _--> _aatash _--> _aatesh_ _(aatish)_

In Middle Persian both _aataxsh _and _aatash _were in use.  The latter pronunciation must have also been used in early Farsi and is still used in Dari.  Hence, _aatash_ in Urdu presumably represents the earlier form of the Persian loan while _aatish _represents the later form. I would argue that _aatish _is the more common pronunciation today.


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## darush

_*Hello all,
'Aatash' is the correct and formal word. In Iran we always say 'aatish' in our colloquial speech. 
*_


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## Wolverine9

^ Thanks for clarifying.  I guess the usage of _aatash/aatish_ in Urdu mirrors that of Persian.

The _a_ --> _e/i_ may have occurred due to Turkic influence  since some vowels in Turkic languages are pronounced differently than in  Persian.


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