# Courtesy



## 0stsee

Hello!

I noticed that in Indonesian you don't say "hello" and "bye" when entering or leaving a store. Nor do we have something like "have a nice day" or "have a nice weekend" (I won't even know how to translate them into Indonesian).

How is it in your language, or where you live?

Thank you!


0stsee


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## sokol

In *Austria *you would say "hello" when entering a store only if it's a small one and you are well known there (or you greet the shop assistants when meeting them between the aisles); in bigger stores you only do that if you want to.

But if you are reaching the counter you're greeted and you do greet back, and after paying you say good bye as well. Not greeting at all would be very strange here, it surely would be considered impolite.


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## K-Milla

In Mexico you must say something [hello, bye, good bye, see you...]. As sokol said, would be considered impolite.


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## Etcetera

In Russia, everything depends on you.

You may say "Hello" to a shop assistant, and this would sound really nice. But it's not obligatory: for example, in Moscow people quite rarely say polite words to shop assistants, bus drivers and so on. When they ask the driver to stop the bus on a bus stop, they don't even add "please" in most cases - that's what really upsets me.


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## 0stsee

sokol said:


> In *Austria *you would say "hello" when entering a store only if it's a small one and you are well known there (or you greet the shop assistants when meeting them between the aisles); in bigger stores you only do that if you want to.
> 
> But if you are reaching the counter you're greeted and you do greet back, and after paying you say good bye as well. Not greeting at all would be very strange here, it surely would be considered impolite.


 
That's what I meant specifically. Even at the counter we don't say "hello" and "bye". Only "thanks".

I found it awkward not to say "hello". So I did that even though it's unusual.
I sometimes don't say "bye", though, since "daah" is usually reserved only for people you know. So it might sound weird saying it to a stranger.


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## K-Milla

I think that in Mexico, if someone said "_thank you_" or "_bye_" and add a "_*have a nice day*_" will far enough of politeness! Maybe the guy/person that is on the other side will think: "this girl/boy is crazy".


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## palomnik

This is an interesting idea for a thread, although it can easily drop into an abyss of differing concepts of courtesy.  It is, on the whole, a very relative thing.

Americans don't feel any great urge to say hello to shopkeepers, at least not until they have decided to buy something, in which case a hello and a smile are okay, but hardly universal.  Many Hispanics and French who encounter this American phenomenon think it is quite rude, since among them it is normal to greet shop assistants when you come in and to thank them when you leave, regardless of whether you've bought anything.  Americans have to consciously train themselves to do this when they're overseas, because it doesn't come natural to them.

On the other hand, Russian shop assistants at one time had an international reputation for unfriendliness, at least in the Soviet days; sometimes it seemed as if they were deliberately trying to ignore you.  Maybe things have changed, but Etcetera's comments would lead me to think that they haven't changed that much, at least in Moscow.  You can't make a judgment about the culture based on this, though.  The ritual that you face in a shop doesn't really tell you a whole lot about how "friendly" a culture tends to be, and "friendliness" does not really say much about how good-hearted people are as a group.  

I've never studied any culture in the whole world that didn't think that they were friendly, and generous.


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## 0stsee

Thanks for your contribution, Palomnik.


Indeed we should keep in mind that just because in some places people don't say "hello" and "bye", doesn't mean that they are worse.
It's simply not done there.

So I'd appreciate it if (general) you would share your expreiences without judging the habit of other places.


I personally find it a pity that Indonesians don't say "have a nice day". But that's just the way it is.  Doesn't meant that we are worse.


Groetjes,


0stsee


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## Kelly B

Agreed - it isn't measure of kindness, but a matter of habit.
In the US, if you say hello to shopkeepers when you enter, they are likely to think you need help with something. If you would rather take a little time to browse by yourself, then it seems better to just smile instead.
In France, on the other hand, walking in and out of a shop without a greeting felt almost like walking silently in and out of the neighbor's house (except, of course, that there was no need to knock on the door of the shop.)


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## ayupshiplad

In the UK I would say it isn't that normal to say hello or bye when entering a shop, unless is a small boutique or something of the sort. However, it's quite common to chat away to shop assistants in my experience...well at least 'young people' do. Anyway, it is something that certainly pays off as you will frequently suddenly get 10% discount on what you're buying!


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## Qcumber

Kelly B said:


> In France, on the other hand, walking in and out of a shop without a greeting felt almost like walking silently in and out of the neighbor's house (except, of course, that there was no need to knock on the door of the shop.)


In France the shopkeeper will greet you, when it is your turn to be served, by saying: "_Monsieur? / Madame? (vous désirez? / qu'y a-t-il à votre service?_)", and you state what you want: "_Je voudrais ..._" (I'd like ...) / _Donnez-moi ..._ (Give me ...)

If the shopkeeper says: "_Bonjour_." You answer: "_Bonjour_." before stating what you want.

If you are a regular patron, and know the other customers, as often happens in small towns and villages, you greet everybody when you enter the shop.


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## alahay

0stsee said:


> Indeed we should keep in mind that just because in some places people don't say "hello" and "bye", doesn't mean that they are worse.
> It's simply not done there.
> 
> 0stsee



Thank you for opening our eyes to other cultures, Ostosee.

Now it is my turn to share with you my views on how deceitful language is and how it has evolved merely for the sake of serving our selfish needs. Be it when we say "nice to meet you" when you have only exchanged names and ignorance based prejudice against each other or when we force a political smile, it is most often a measure of dishonesty rather than one of kindness.

Your compatriots are not to be blamed for expressing something they do not mean.


Peace,
A


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## K-Milla

alahay said:


> Be it when we say "nice we meet you" when you have only exchanged names and ignorance based prejudice against each other or when we force a political smile, it is most often a measure of dishonesty rather than one of kindness.
> 
> A



You have a point there. I agree with you on that. 

For me, is natural to say something or just to move your hand or head, things like that. But is because I learnt to do that! Defnitely, culture, traditions and education are "_guilty_".


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## alexacohen

In Spain it is polite to say hello or g'day to taxi drivers, to shop assistants, and of course to waiters.
There are many people who don't do it, of course.


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## chics

In France, as in Spain, we say _hello_ when entering into a shop; and we say _bye_ and _thanks_ when going out. No matter if it's small or big.
Of course the same in taxis, etc.


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## scotu

alahay said:


> Now it is my turn to share with you my views on how deceitful language is and how it has evolved merely for the sake of serving our selfish needs. Be it when we say "nice we meet you" when you have only exchanged names and ignorance based prejudice against each other or when we force a political smile, it is most often a measure of dishonesty rather than one of kindness. Your compatriots are not to be blamed for expressing something they do not mean.
> Peace,
> A



Calling ritual cultural norms dishonesty is harsh. These rituals are merely shortcuts that signify I am friendly, approachable and I am open to further communication and I am sending these signals in a manner that is commonly accepted as a normal ritual of our shared culture. It is no more dishonest than closing a message with the word "peace"


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## 0stsee

Thank you for the contributions so far.

I plead that we respect others' views and not start a "war of opinions" .

Groetjes,


0stsee


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## alexacohen

> Originally Posted by *scotu*
> These rituals are merely shortcuts that signify I am friendly, approachable and I am open to further communication and I am sending these signals in a manner that is commonly accepted as a normal ritual of our shared culture


No one is starting a war, but I agree with Scotu. This is not dishonesty or hypocrisy.
In our culture, it is called good manners.


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## 0stsee

alexacohen said:


> No one is starting a war, but I agree with Scotu. This is not dishonesty or hypocrisy.
> In our culture, it is called good manners.


 
I know.
I was just putting a reminder. Not that one start (Nicht dass einer beginnt).


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## LaReinita

alexacohen said:


> No one is starting a war, but I agree with Scotu. This is not dishonesty or hypocrisy.
> In our culture, it is called good manners.


 
I second this.


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## Etcetera

palomnik said:


> On the other hand, Russian shop assistants at one time had an international reputation for unfriendliness, at least in the Soviet days; sometimes it seemed as if they were deliberately trying to ignore you.  Maybe things have changed, but Etcetera's comments would lead me to think that they haven't changed that much, at least in Moscow.


It depends on the shop, actually. If it's a small corner shop in a remote district of the city, it's very probably that the shop assistants wuoldn't be very friendly. But in hypermarkets, especially if they belong to a large hypermarket chain (like Auchan or Lenta), the shop assistants always say "Hello/Good day" and "Thank you for shopping". Of course, some of them do it just because they are told to do so.

Still, it's a positive change.


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## Mahaodeh

One must also keep in mind that people change, what was considered impolite 20 years ago may become the norm of today.

My parents as an example would say hellow to anyone they encounter no matter how: shop keepers, taxi drivers, the mall's security guard, the doorman of any building they enter, the people in the elevator, when they stop at a bus stop, when they sit on a nearby bench in the park, the person in front of them an a que (yes, when they stand at a que they say hellow!); hence the salesperson at the counter and the waiter at the resturant are more than normal, they are a must!

I don't go that far, although I'd say hellow to people in an elevator and say hellow to the doorman if he happens to be looking at me but I am not about to say hellow to every doorman busy watching TV behind the counter or everyone in the bus (yep, my dad say one loud hellow to everyone in the bus!).  I guess people in most Arab countries say more hellows than Americans, but I'm not sure if it's more than the Spanish or the French, at least not nowadays (maybe 40 years ago).

Bye doesn't seem to be of the same importance though, unless you had a certain dealing or stayed with them a while it's not required to say bye.  When I go into a building and encounter the doorman, I just say hellow (actually, it's assalamu alikum) and move on; but if I go into a small shop, I'd say it twice - once when I enter and once when I leave.  If I buy something I'd also say thank you.


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## kittykate

What a great thread, Ostsee. 

Something that’s a given for me turns out not to be so for so many people! 

I’m Italian and I would find it rather rude not to say hi to a shop assistant when I enter a shop – and consider them rude if they didn’t greet me or reply to me. The only exception could be large department stores, where there may be no one in sight for aisles and aisles.
I always say thank you and bye when I leave, independent of whether I’ve bought something or not, and expect a reply to that. 
I don’t always get it, though, especially if I didn’t buy anything! 

I lived in the USA for one year, 20 years ago, and I still remember how every single shop assistant, waiter, etc. would smile at me, ask me what they could do for me, and be so polite and helpful that I would actually feel guilty if I went out without buying at least something.

caterina


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## Bilma

What I have seen where I live (a small town in Texas) the shop assistants greet you first as soon as you get to the store.


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## palomnik

scotu said:


> Calling ritual cultural norms dishonesty is harsh. These rituals are merely shortcuts that signify I am friendly, approachable and I am open to further communication and I am sending these signals in a manner that is commonly accepted as a normal ritual of our shared culture. It is no more dishonest than closing a message with the word "peace"


 
This is indeed a really interesting thread, and one that gets to the level of unspoken communication that is just as important, if not more so, than speech.

Courtesy language is very often a way of establishing boundaries between individuals.  Like most westerners, one of the first phrases I was taught to use constantly as a child was "thank you."  In fact, there are quite a few cultures around the world where overuse of the phrase is considered eccentric, if not downright impolite.  I'm reminded of the old story of the westerner in China that was nicknamed "Mr. Thankyou" because he was always saying "thank you."  

A related topic (one fit for a separate thread, if I could think of a name for it) is how some languages have a large number of set expressions for certain courtesy situations, whereas other languages seem to lack them.  Arabic and Japanese, for example, have a large number of standard expressions that are expected in certain situations; other languages like Swahili have very few.  Then again there are some languages that used to have a large number and have lost them over time, like Chinese.


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## faranji

0stsee said:


> That's what I meant specifically. Even at the counter we don't say "hello" and "bye". Only "thanks".
> 
> I found it awkward not to say "hello". So I did that even though it's unusual.
> I sometimes don't say "bye", though, since "daah" is usually reserved only for people you know. So it might sound weird saying it to a stranger.


 
I am bit puzzled by this, 0stsee, as one of my most vivid recollections from Indonesia is being greeted a thousand times a day by total strangers in the middle of the street, either with a kind of "hi" or the initially bewildering "mau ke mana?" (bahasa for "where are you going?") 

It took me a while to realize they were not so much interested in knowing about your destination but simply use it as a token of friendliness or cordiality. And this was recurrent in four different islands over three months, so I guess it can't be ruled out as a freak occurrence.


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## 0stsee

faranji said:


> I am bit puzzled by this, 0stsee, as one of my most vivid recollections from Indonesia is being greeted a thousand times a day by total strangers in the middle of the street, either with a kind of "hi" or the initially bewildering "mau ke mana?" (bahasa for "where are you going?")
> 
> It took me a while to realize they were not so much interested in knowing about your destination but simply use it as a token of friendliness or cordiality. And this was recurrent in four different islands over three months, so I guess it can't be ruled out as a freak occurrence.


 
Where were you in Indonesia, Faranji?

I was talking especially about the courtesy at counters, be it in a store, or in a fast food restaurant.
Did you notice that Indonesians only say "makasih" after paying, and that we don't usually say "hello", let alone "bye"?

I didn't really notice because I grew up in Indonesia, but where I live now it's unimaginable not to say "hi" when you're at the counter.

Salam,


0stsee


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## alahay

alexacohen said:
			
		

> No one is starting a war...



I third this! Many are afraid of expressing their opinions cause they might be regarded as fire starters by the passive community and this is what makes us even more passive and distant. This is an amazing cultural topic, so let us all try to understand each other beyond mannerism.



			
				scotu said:
			
		

> Calling ritual cultural norms dishonesty is harsh.


Harsh indeed, and so is reality. I want to clarify that this is my personal opinion of course and it does not regard all actions of courtesy as dishonest as clearly stated in my post. 



palomnik said:


> Like most westerners, one of the first phrases I was taught to use constantly as a child was "thank you."...


Same here! As if by not explicitly mentioning it one is not thankful or even disgraceful. Who would want such a tile? This question has always perplexed me. I often think of why do we constantly use words like "sincerely" or "honestly". Does their absence reflect our "insincerity" or "dishonesty" or have we as humans lost our credibility after all we have done and now need to cunningly use more of these words to distinguish ourselves from our dreadful history or from the stereotypes that the ignorance of others might think of?

Peace,
A


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## Nanon

palomnik said:


> Americans don't feel any great urge to say hello to shopkeepers, at least not until they have decided to buy something, in which case a hello and a smile are okay, but hardly universal.  Many Hispanics and French who encounter this American phenomenon think it is quite rude, since among them it is normal to greet shop assistants when you come in and to thank them when you leave, regardless of whether you've bought anything (...)



Agreed! In France, it is considered normal to greet and to be greeted. A shop assistant that would not say "hello" to a customer would be considered as extremely rude (and maybe could get fired?). However, to get a greeting, you must give it first. Nowadays' étiquette does not specify who should say "hello" first (if you are a customer, you enter the shop, so you should say "hello" first, but if you are a shopkeeper, your customer means everything to you, so you should also say "hello" first), but the important thing is that there must be two hellos. And two good-byes.



palomnik said:


> On the other hand, Russian shop assistants at one time had an international reputation for unfriendliness, at least in the Soviet days; sometimes it seemed as if they were deliberately trying to ignore you. Maybe things have changed, but Etcetera's comments would lead me to think that they haven't changed that much, at least in Moscow.





Etcetera said:


> (...) for example, in Moscow people quite rarely say polite words to shop assistants, bus drivers and so on. When they ask the driver to stop the bus on a bus stop, they don't even add "please" in most cases - that's what really upsets me.



Ahhh... Etcetera, Petersburgers are friendlier and more respectful than Muscovites... It is not only the impression I have - I have friends in Moscow who share this opinion!



Etcetera said:


> (...) in hypermarkets, especially if they belong to a large hypermarket chain (like Auchan or Lenta), the shop assistants always say "Hello/Good day" and "Thank you for shopping". Of course, some of them do it just because they are told to do so.



It is likely that shop assistants in supermarkets, especially in global chains, are told to behave like this. In France, shop assistants are also instructed to _smile _(they don't always do, especially when they are very tired after a long day's work... but they are expected to). They are trained with an acronym: "*SBAM*" = *S*ourire (smile), *B*onjour (Hello), *A*u revoir (Good bye), *M*erci (Thank you).


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## K-Milla

I don't know if I getting off-topic, but once I felt quite strange when my friends and I went to Puebla [a different city of ours] and the hotel's staff, which by the way wasn't a chain, were so polite and warm that we thought they went too far, you know?


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## HUMBERT0

I can only speak of the region where I live in, and what I´ve seen.

  Tijuana (Mex):  People say: buenos dias, buenas tardes, aló, etc. and gracias in small shops, like the small store in your street, butcher shop, etc., many when you enter the taxi. But when it’s a large store we may say at the end thank you, that’s all, usually the employees don’t greet you so you don’t feel obliged to do the same. As for me, I’m not that that big on elaborate hellos or making small talk with people, but I’m a northerner, people from the south do care much more about these things, my parents who are from the west and not from the north like to make small talk with personnel and other customers, are very open and friendly with people, my mom often tells me I met some one from my homeland in the produce section, they came here such and such… 

  The other day I went to the bank I approach the teller and I said I want to deposit … and then she said (an older lady) Good Morning Sr. in a tone that said to me, Aren’t you forgetting something?, the first thing that came to my mind was “she’s not from around here”, she must be from Mexico city, but since I didn't want to be rude I said “Oh, Good morning”.

  So it depends on the person and their background, and the circumstances.


  San Diego (USA):  Employees greet you when they approach you, or when you pay, they’ll say: Hi, Hello, did you find every thing you were looking for, thank you for shopping at…, or something like that, especially in department stores or supermarket chains, etc. in small shops the hello is more natural.

  I maybe wrong but in my experience the personnel in San Diego is a lot, a lot! friendlier, customers aren’t that engaging, where as in TJ personnel isn’t as friendly though customers are the ones who are more engaging and friendly.


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## scotu

HUMBERT0 said:


> I
> The other day I went to the bank I approach the teller and I said I want to deposit … and then she said (an older lady) Good Morning Sr. in a tone that said to me, Aren’t you forgetting something?



The same thing happened to me a few times when I first came to Mexico until I realized that in Mexico it is bad manners to begin your business without a polite greeting. I like this custom so much that I miss it when I go to places  where "small talk" is considered insincere, suspicious or an inefficient use of precious time.


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## avok

In Turkey, it is always an advantage to say "hello" (or selamýn aleyküm for some people ) or "goodbye" etc in a store, restaurant, shop etc. Many people not just say hello but have little chit chats with the shop keeper or the assistant (like me ) It feels good but when I was in France, whenever I entered into a store, the girls would say" Bonjour Monsieur?" with a smiling face all the time . At first I found this very flattering and I smiled and tried to show that I am "also" happy to be in that particular store but days later I found out that this "Bonjour monsieur?" (always the same intonation and always the same smile) is nothing but a cheesy ritual for anyone and everyone, there is nothing personal in it, no feeling. Just a cold feeling-free "Bonjour Monsieur ?????" I don't blame the girls (the assistants/shop keepers) they were probably told to do so...(be nice to customers!  smile and say Bonjour Monsieur, Madame etc) After I figured out that, all those "Bonjour Monsieurs" began to touch my nerves and in the end I stopped smiling or just faked a smile or I replied back "Bonjour Madame" with the same intonation. I became one of them


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## sokol

HUMBERT0 said:


> Tijuana (Mex):  People say: buenos dias, buenas tardes, aló, etc. and gracias in small shops, like the small store in your street, butcher shop, etc., many when you enter the taxi. But when it’s a large store we may say at the end thank you, that’s all, usually the employees don’t greet you so you don’t feel obliged to do the same.


I had a Mexican teacher in my first Spanish course and I think she would have had quite different attitutes ... (anyway she put much weight on greetings, her greetings always were quite elaborate, her good-byes too, for that matter).
Probably Tijuana is influenced by the EEUU?

I still think it strange that in American films obviously it is not considered necessary saying your hellos and good-byes, not even when visiting close friends. This would be considered very rude here.
But a difference according to the size of shops also exists in Austria.
Only in small shops you always greet when entering and say your good-byes when leaving; in rural areas or smaller towns you do even greet every customer, not only the shop assistants.

Nevertheless, even in big supermarkets it would be *unthinkable *really to not greet at all at least when you're paying at the counter. Even in fast-food restaurants it is considered normal to say your hello's and good-bye's (but I think fast-food restaurants are the one case where not greeting probably would be accepted without taking offence).



avok said:


> (...) but days later I found out that this "Bonjour monsieur?" (always the same intonation and always the same smile) is nothing but a cheesy ritual for anyone and everyone, there is nothing personal in it, no feeling (...)


Well, yes, it's true - it's not meant personal but just - courtesy!
But don't be so hard on them: they have to greet friendly ... here in Austria a big supermarket chain even once made a contest of 'friendliest shop assistant' (customers could vote - and all voters could win something, this of course to motivate for voting at all). [I personally thought that this was quite ridiculous and unfair, but then - it still shows how important greeting is considered here.]


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## avok

> Originally Posted by *sokol*
> Well, yes, it's true - it's not meant personal but just - courtesy!
> But don't be so hard on them: they have to greet friendly ... here in Austria a big supermarket chain even once made a contest of 'friendliest shop assistant' (customers could vote - and all voters could win something, this of course to motivate for voting at all). [I personally thought that this was quite ridiculous and unfair, but then - it still shows how important greeting is considered here.]


 
I totally agree with you


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## PABLO DE SOTO

In Spain it depends on several circumstances.
In large department stores, large supermarkets or so, you can see people who greet and people who don't.
You can even see (and I hate it) people who pay while they are talking through the mobile and it looks as if the cashier was invisible for them.
There is a famous and well known clothing store where you can stay, look, try the clothes on and nobody will say you a word until you go to the counter and pay.
Actually in these shops there are many more customers than assistants so it would be almost imposible to greet every client.
In small and expensive shops people, both assistants and customers use to be more polite and greeting or offering help is usual.


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## goedel

avok said:


> ... days later I found out that this "Bonjour monsieur?" (always the same intonation and always the same smile) is nothing but a cheesy ritual for anyone and everyone, there is nothing personal in it, no feeling. Just a cold feeling-free "Bonjour Monsieur ?????" ... After I figured out that, all those "Bonjour Monsieurs" began to touch my nerves and in the end I stopped smiling or just faked a smile or I replied back "Bonjour Madame" with the same intonation. I became one of them



I totally agree with avok. 

I've lived in England for a few months years ago, and more recently in the US for a few years (I'm Italian). In both cases I was impressed by the degree of politeness that at first seemed to me much higher than in my home country. 
As I got more used to it, though, I had the same feeling of impersonality, and I started to miss the apparent Italian rudeness.

I remember that once I went to the HR person of my company because I needed some help to figure out how to deal with the contribution for my retirement. The conversation went along these lines:

(HR) Good morning
(Goedel) Good morning
(HR) How can I help you?
(G) Well... I would like to know if it's more convenient for me to do this instead of that...
(HR) Oh, I'm so sorry. I cannot help you with that, sir; it's just your personal decision
(G) ... [Thinks: I can see you're sorry... but if I knew how to take my decision I wouldn't be here]
(HR) Can I help you with anything else?
(G) No, thanks [... you were helpful enough]
(HR) Have a good day
(G) You too! [Addio!]


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## Orreaga

alahay said:


> Now it is my turn to share with you my views on how deceitful language is and how it has evolved merely for the sake of serving our selfish needs. Be it when we say "nice to meet you" when you have only exchanged names and ignorance based prejudice against each other or when we force a political smile, it is most often a measure of dishonesty rather than one of kindness.



I don't share this cynicism.  As John Lukacs wrote, "Hypocrisy is the cement that held civilization together" ... and we need these superficial conventions just to get through the day.  Who can bear to constantly monitor their "sincere" feelings and the motives of others from minute to minute,  and react accordingly?  And what shop clerk (or anyone we're introduced to in passing) would want to listen to such a person?


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## JamesM

sokol said:


> I still think it strange that in American films obviously it is not considered necessary saying your hellos and good-byes, not even when visiting close friends.


 
Characters in American film and TV do not act the way people do in real life.  Have you ever noticed that people almost never say "goodbye" when hanging up the phone in a television show, while it would be considered very rude not to do so in real life?

Please don't take the actions of characters in films to be representative of everyday manners.  Many of the manners are "edited out" because they dull the drama of the situation.


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## alexacohen

Orreaga said:


> I don't share this cynicism. As John Lukacs wrote, "Hypocrisy is the cement that held civilization together" ... and we need these superficial conventions just to get through the day.


But why does anyone have to assume that when some other person says "have a nice day"! is because he/she is an hypocrite?
The phrase is repeated hundreds of times a day, but that does not mean that the people who say it are wishing one another a hell of a day.


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## shannenms

JamesM said:


> Characters in American film and TV do not act the way people do in real life. Have you ever noticed that people almost never say "goodbye" when hanging up the phone in a television show, while it would be considered very rude not to do so in real life?


 
Great! I always thought that the Americans are acting strangely not to say goodbye when a call is finished, aside from being rude the other party on the line cannot understand if the call has finished. Now I get they are not so. Thank you James



Kelly B said:


> Agreed - it isn't measure of kindness, but a matter of habit.
> In the US, if you say hello to shopkeepers when you enter, they are likely to think you need help with something. If you would rather take a little time to browse by yourself, then it seems better to just smile instead.
> In France, on the other hand, walking in and out of a shop without a greeting felt almost like walking silently in and out of the neighbor's house (except, of course, that there was no need to knock on the door of the shop.)


 
The same is in Iran, but only some improvement has been made: I sometimes use preferably a phrase which is probably nonsentical in English but still popular and very polite in Persian, like "Don't be tired".


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## 0stsee

JamesM said:


> Characters in American film and TV do not act the way people do in real life.  Have you ever noticed that people almost never say "goodbye" when hanging up the phone in a television show, while it would be considered very rude not to do so in real life?



That really caught my attention. I also think it's quite rude.
Nice to know that it's not so in real life.


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## Nanon

JamesM said:


> Characters in American film and TV do not act the way people do in real life. Have you ever noticed that people almost never say "goodbye" when hanging up the phone in a television show, while it would be considered very rude not to do so in real life?
> 
> Please don't take the actions of characters in films to be representative of everyday manners. Many of the manners are "edited out" because they dull the drama of the situation.


 
I agree with Shannems, these manners can seem extremely rude. In real life, many people don't say "goodbye" when hanging up the phone only in internal calls within a company (probably because a) they need to be efficient and b) because there might be another call between the same persons later in the day).


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## mirx

Nanon said:


> I agree with Shannems, these manners can seem extremely rude. In real life, people don't say "goodbye" when hanging up the phone only in internal calls within a company (probably because a) they need to be efficient and b) because there might be another call between the same persons later in the day).


 
I work in a company and we have to maka callls to different departments all the time. And we do say "bye" and "thanks" all the time. I would find absolutely rude someone who didn't.

I disagree with the comments about Americans being rude in stores, to the contary, I believe there are much more polite than Mexicans (I am Mexican). Probably they are being polite in a hypocritical kind of way, but still polite.

Cheers.


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## Polymnia

chics said:


> In France, as in Spain, we say _hello_ when entering into a shop; and we say _bye_ and _thanks_ when going out. No matter if it's small or big.
> Of course the same in taxis, etc.




People tend to do the same here in southern Lousiana and definitely in New Orleans.  Maybe it comes from the strong French and Spanish heritage down here?
Also if you are walking down the street, people tend to greet each other even if you don't know each other.


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## Hakro

A friend of mine told me that when he was living in the US, a supermarket cashier could say to him: "Hello, how are you today?" and if my friend told that today he feels awful, everything sucks etc. the usual answer would be: "That's great! Have a nice day!" The cashier seemed to be polite but she never listened a word. My friend told me that this kind of "courtesy" is typical American.


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## Orreaga

Hakro said:


> A friend of mine told me that when he was living in the US, a supermarket cashier could say to him: "Hello, how are you today?" and if my friend told that today he feels awful, everything sucks etc. the usual answer would be: "That's great! Have a nice day!" The cashier seemed to be polite but she never listened a word. My friend told me that this kind of "courtesy" is typical American.


This has never happened to me, living in the US all my adult life. But usually when I'm asked "How are you today" I don't take the opportunity to complain about everything, because that's not the time or place. If I'm feeling unusually frank and I don't feel well, I might mention that I'm unwell, or tired, or whatever, and in those cases I have always received a reasonably sympathetic response given the brief and perfunctory nature of the transaction.

If, however, the cashier sensed that your friend was attempting to deliberately expose that she was asking a dishonest question and could really care less how he felt, then the cashier could have thought he was obnoxious and replied in a sarcastic manner.


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## Hakro

Orreaga said:


> This has never happened to me, living in the US all my adult life. But usually when I'm asked "How are you today" I don't take the opportunity to complain about everything, because that's not the time or place. If I'm feeling unusually frank and I don't feel well, I might mention that I'm unwell, or tired, or whatever, and in those cases I have always received a reasonably sympathetic response given the brief and perfunctory nature of the transaction.
> 
> If, however, the cashier sensed that your friend was attempting to deliberately expose that she was asking a dishonest question and could really care less how he felt, then the cashier could have thought he was obnoxious and replied in a sarcastic manner.


It never happens as long as you say "I'm fine".

It is also possible that your second thought is true.

But I think that the main point is that in some countries (not only in the US) people are used to ask "How are you?" without wanting (or listening) the answer, and this question is never or seldom answered truthfully. 

One can ask what is the meaning of this courtesy.


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## Orreaga

Hakro said:


> It never happens as long as you say "I'm fine".
> 
> It is also possible that your second thought is true.
> 
> But I think that the main point is that in some countries (not only in the US) people are used to ask "How are you?" without wanting (or listening) the answer, and this question is never or seldom answered truthfully.
> 
> One can ask what is the meaning of this courtesy.


I will answer this question differently, depending on who asks it: a doctor, my partner, or a cashier.  If a cashier asks it out of courtesy, I accept it as such, just as a courtesy, not a serious inquiry into my state of health. 

I've known cashiers who've worked in stores where they were required to ask this type of question of every customer, "So, how is your day/weekend going?" (the chain Trader Joe's).  They learn to judge the character of each customer based on their response.  They tend to appreciate responses that are pleasant (even if inaccurate) and reciprocal, not people who are gruff or grumpy, or people who go on and on about their migraines, hemorrhoids, etc.    The attitude seems to be, "you be pleasant to me and I'll be pleasant to you, and we'll both be better off", the content of the question is really beside the point.

I think it is true that in American culture for a cashier to say nothing to a customer would be considered rude, so the person needs to acknowledge that you exist in a verbal way. Usually this takes some form of "How are you?"


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## mirx

Orreaga said:


> I will answer this question differently, depending on who asks it: a doctor, my partner, or a cashier. If a cashier asks it out of courtesy, I accept it as such, just as a courtesy, not a serious inquiry into my state of health.
> 
> I've known cashiers who've worked in stores where they were required to ask this type of question of every customer, "So, how is your day/weekend going?" (the chain Trader Joe's). They learn to judge the character of each customer based on their response. They tend to appreciate responses that are pleasant (even if inaccurate) and reciprocal, not people who are gruff or grumpy, or people who go on and on about their migraines, hemorrhoids, etc.  The attitude seems to be, "you be pleasant to me and I'll be pleasant to you, and we'll both be better off", the content of the question is really beside the point.
> 
> I think it is true that in American culture for a cashier to say nothing to a customer would be considered rude, so the person needs to acknowledge that you exist in a verbal way. Usually this takes some form of "How are you?"


 
Have you read the whole thread? 

Some of your country men say that Americans are less polite compared to other cultures. Some said that most people won't even say goodmorning, afternoon, evening, hi, bye, when entering a shop simply because it is not the norm in American standars.

This, however, hasn't been my experience. Most employees, if not all, have always greeted me and been extremely polite to me. I then said that some of it is obvious hypocresy, and Hakro just pointed out the experience that his friend had had, which not only do I believe, but also consider to be a very likely occurance.

Regards.


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## JamesM

mirx said:


> Have you read the whole thread?
> 
> Some of your country men say that Americans are less polite compared to other cultures. Some said that most people won't even say goodmorning, afternoon, evening, hi, bye, when entering a shop simply because it is not the norm in American standars.


 
I have re-read the entire thread. As a point of clarification, the point made by "my countrymen" is that it is not our custom as the _customer_ to say "hello" when entering a shop. It _is _expected that the employee or owner of the shop will say "hello" to us at some point, usually with "May I help you find something?" or some such thing. On a trip to France in 2005 I had to practice the custom of greeting the shop owner as I entered the shop. This is not normal for us. It is, however, very normal to respond to a greeting from the shop owner or employee.

In a way it would be considered rude in a large store to walk in and say, "Hello" as you entered. It would draw attention to yourself and away from others. Rick Steves, an American publisher of guidebooks,  spoke about this difference in perception of politeness. Americans are trying to be polite by taking up as little of the shop clerk's time as possible. Much of the small talk is seen as an imposition by the _customer_ on the _employee. _I know that can be a difficult concept but I do believe there's some truth to it. For example, we ask for directions quickly and launch right into our question in order to take up as little time as possible of the person we're "bothering", but our lack of greetings and preamble can seem rude and abrupt in other cultures.


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## mirx

JamesM said:


> I have re-read the entire thread. As a point of clarification, the point made by "my countrymen" is that it is not our custom as the _customer_ to say "hello" when entering a shop. It _is _expected that the employee or owner of the shop will say "hello" to us at some point, usually with "May I help you find something?" or some such thing. On a trip to France in 2005 I had to practice the custom of greeting the shop owner as I entered the shop. This is not normal for us. It is, however, very normal to respond to a greeting from the shop owner or employee.


 
Thanks for the clarification. 

The point remains the same, it shouldn't all be left to the employee. As I see it, the customer too should greet the employees and not always wait for them to do it. It shouldn't be like an established protocol that a specific party must start the conversation. That also could be considered impolite (customers not greeting employees).

Regards.


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## JamesM

mirx said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> The point remains the same, it shouldn't all be left to the employee. As I see it, the customer too should greet the employees and not always wait for them to do it. It shouldn't be like an established protocol that a specific party must start the conversation. That also could be considered impolite (customers not greeting employees).
> 
> Regards.


 
But isn't that what the purpose of these discussions are, mirx? To uncover the "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" that we pick up from our various cultures?  Even within our own culture we have variations.  For example, entering a small store or restaurant in a small rural town here in the West and not looking the owner (or employee) in the eye and saying (or responding) "hello!" will often have them on edge.  They will wonder why you're being so secretive and "not above board."  Try walking into a large department store in a metropolis, though, and watch the reaction if you walk up to an employee, look them in the eye and say, "Hello".  They will wonder what you need so urgently that you came up to them and started a conversation.

Are either of these employees "wrong"?  Is either "should" right?  I don't think so.


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## mirx

JamesM said:


> But isn't that what the purpose of these discussions are, mirx? To uncover the "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" that we pick up from our various cultures?


 
That's why I said "as I see it".


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## JamesM

mirx said:


> That's why I said "as I see it".


 
I was responding to: "The point remains the same, it shouldn't all be left to the employee."  That sounded like a hard-and-fast rule.


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## mirx

JamesM said:


> I was responding to: "The point remains the same, it shouldn't all be left to the employee." That sounded like a hard-and-fast rule.


 
Yeah, which was followed by "as I see it" although a period did get in the way.

I do get your point anyways.


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## Zsanna

Oh my, oh my.
I think this is exactly what we wanted to avoid in this topic (as well as in any other). 
Politeness should be investigated/judged in its own environment otherwise it _stops making sense_. We were also asked not to judge others...
In fact, this is why I did not dare to add my contribution so far: because I fear that the Hungarian habits I knew have already changed and the French ones would be "distorted" by a Hungarian mirror...

So my general approach is more along the lines that whatever seems rude to me here (in France, like when I greet the shop assistant entering a shop and I do not get any answer) is probably totally counterbalanced by the number of times I may give the impression of being rude (we, Hungarians, say "thank you" less often and in other situations as "Westeners") and what would be the point in taking all that to heart? (Especially when you can be sure of the lack of ill will on both sides.)

There is a point, however, in keeping an eye on the differences and trying to adapt to one's environment.


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## Orreaga

mirx said:


> Have you read the whole thread?
> 
> Some of your country men say that Americans are less polite compared to other cultures. Some said that most people won't even say goodmorning, afternoon, evening, hi, bye, when entering a shop simply because it is not the norm in American standars.
> 
> This, however, hasn't been my experience. Most employees, if not all, have always greeted me and been extremely polite to me. I then said that some of it is obvious hypocresy, and Hakro just pointed out the experience that his friend had had, which not only do I believe, but also consider to be a very likely occurance.


Yes, I've read the whole thread, and I noticed that Hakro did not answer the original question (I still don't know what people say when they enter a shop in Helsinki) but rather claimed to know what is typical behavior in another country based on second-hand information. I actually find it hard to believe that Hakro's friend actually had the experience he reported, it sounds more like a parody of an overworked cashier, something from a comedy show rather than real life. I will not say it could never happen, but it is definitely not "typical."

Now, how do the residents of Helsinki behave in shops and supermarkets?? I know people who've lived there also, but this wasn't something they ever talked about, nor did I ask before.


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