# Etymology of kučak - کوچک (small)



## PersoLatin

Is the origin of کوچک Iranian or Turkish?


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## fdb

kūčak “small” occurs already in Middle Persian so it cannot very well be a Turkish loanword.


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## PersoLatin

Thank you fdb.

Is there any cognate of it in other Iranian languages? I don't believe the last letter ک - ak, represents the dimunitive suffix, but does it?


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## bragpipes

-k/-ik is a diminutive suffix in Kurdish.  Bira (brother) > birak (little brother).  
Keç (girl) > keçik (little girl).
I read that دخترك also exists in Persian.

Having that said, this is "small" in some Turkic languages:
Azeri: kiçik
Crimean Tatar: kiçik
Kazakh:  кіші ‎(kişi)
Khakas: кічіг ‎(kíçíg)
Kumyk: гиччи ‎(giççi)
Uzbek: kichik 
Turkmen: kiçi
Tatar: кече ‎(keçe), кечек ‎(keçek)
Southern Altai: кичинек ‎(kiçinek)
Shor: кичиг ‎(kiçig)


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## apmoy70

bragpipes said:


> -k/-ik is a diminutive suffix in Kurdish.  Bira (brother) > birak (little brother).
> Keç (girl) > keçik (little girl).
> I read that دخترك also exists in Persian.
> 
> Having that said, this is "small" in some Turkic languages:
> Azeri: kiçik
> Crimean Tatar: kiçik
> Kazakh:  кіші ‎(kişi)
> Khakas: кічіг ‎(kíçíg)
> Kumyk: гиччи ‎(giççi)
> Uzbek: kichik
> Turkmen: kiçi
> Tatar: кече ‎(keçe), кечек ‎(keçek)
> Southern Altai: кичинек ‎(kiçinek)
> Shor: кичиг ‎(kiçig)


Add Turkish to your list of Turkic languages: küçük [cyˈʧ͡ycʲ] which has produced the MoGr dialectal adj. *«κούτσικος, -κη, -κο»* [ˈkuʦ͡ikos] (masc.), [ˈkuʦ͡ici] (fem.), [ˈkuʦ͡iko] (neut.) --> _small in size/stature, little, petty, young_ (present in the Thessalian regiolect)


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## fdb

I think the similarity between Persian kūčak and Turkish küçük (etc.) is either accidental (a lot of unrelated languages have words for small things beginning with k-), or else it is an early borrowing from some Iranian language to (Old?) Turkish, subjected to Turkish vowel harmony. As I explained above, it is unlikely to be a borrowing from Turkish to Persian.


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## PersoLatin

in Persian کیچ - kich also means small, and maybe to make it even smaller, the diminutive suffix was added to make کیچک/‏کوچک? Much like دُختر and دُخترک.


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## Ben Jamin

In Polish there is a word "kucyk" (pony). I wonder if it can be traced to küçük. 
By the way, there are also other Turkic words in Polish denoting horses (ogier, bachmat, rumak).


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## ancalimon

> Proto-Turkic: *kičük /-g
> Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning: small, little
> Russian meaning: маленький
> Old Turkic: kičig (Orkh., OUygh.)
> Karakhanid: kičüg (MK)
> Turkish: küčük, kiči (dial.)
> Tatar: keče
> Middle Turkic: kičik (IM, AH, Abush., Pav. C.)
> Uzbek: kičik
> Uighur: kičik
> Sary-Yughur: kɨčiɣ
> Azerbaidzhan: kičik
> Turkmen: kiči
> Khakassian: kǝčǝg
> Oyrat: kičü
> Chuvash: kǝźǝn
> Yakut: kuččuguj
> Dolgan: kuččuguj, küččügüj
> Kirghiz: kičǖ
> Kazakh: kǝši
> Noghai: kiškej
> Bashkir: kese
> Balkar: gičče
> Gagauz: küčük, küǯük
> Karaim: kičkenä
> Karakalpak: kǝši
> Salar: kiǯi
> Comments: VEWT 269, EDT 696, ЭСТЯ 5, 75-77, Stachowski 159, 163. On Turk. > Hung. kis 'small' see Gombocz 1912.



Küçük means something that is comparatively smaller than similar things.

I guess "keçi" ( goat) is related with this.

February is called "küçük ay" (little month) because it's shorter.

The root is not certain in neither Persian nor Turkic.



> Proto-Turkic: *Kɨs-
> Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning: 1 short 2 narrow 3 to squeeze
> Russian meaning: 1 короткий 2 узкий 3 сдавливать
> Old Turkic: qɨsɣa (Orkh.) 1
> Karakhanid: qɨs- 3 (MK, KB), qɨsɨɣ 2 (MK), qɨsqa 1 (KB), qɨsɣa 1 (MK)
> Turkish: kɨsa 1, kɨs- 3
> Tatar: qɨsqa 1, qɨs- 3
> Middle Turkic: qɨsqa 1 (Abush.), qɨs- (MA)
> Uzbek: qisqa 1
> Uighur: qisqa 1
> Sary-Yughur: _GɨsGa,_ qɨsGa 1
> Azerbaidzhan: _Gɨsa_ 1
> Turkmen: _GɨsGa_ 1, _Gɨs-_ 3
> Khakassian: xɨsxa 1, xɨs- 3
> Oyrat: qɨsqa 1
> Chuvash: xǝzǝk 2, xǝs- 4
> Yakut: kɨhaj- 3
> Dolgan: kɨhalga 'straits, sorrow' ( = Yak. kɨhalga)
> Tuva: qɨsqa 1, qɨ's- 4, qɨzɨ̄ 2
> Tofalar: qɨ'sqa 1, qɨ's- 4
> Kirghiz: qɨsqa 1
> Kazakh: qɨsqa 1
> Noghai: qɨsqa 1
> Bashkir: qɨsqa 1
> Balkar: qɨsxa 1
> Gagauz: qɨsa 1
> Karaim: qsɨqa 1
> Karakalpak: qɨsqa 1
> Salar: qɨsGa 1
> Comments: PT *Kɨs-ga 'short' is derived from PT *Kɨs- 'to press, squeeze'. See VEWT 267, EDT 665-7, ЭСТЯ 6, 251-253, Stachowski 167.






> Proto-Turkic: *Kɨl-
> Altaic etymology: Altaic etymology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning: 1 thin 2 short
> Russian meaning: 1 тонкий 2 короткий
> Khakassian: xɨlbɨs
> Oyrat: qɨlbɨq, qɨlbɨs 1
> Chuvash: xǝldǝrke 'худой, хилый, тонкий'
> Yakut: kɨlgas 2
> Dolgan: kɨlgas 2
> Kirghiz: qɨlmɨj-
> Kazakh: qɨlmɨj-
> Comments: On the rare reflexes of this root see VEWT 263, Stachowski 168.





Looking at other semantically related words that might have derived from the same root, I can guess that the root initially was something like *kü, *ki, whereas the the word "büyük" meaning big was derived from a root like *bü


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## sotos

bragpipes said:


> -k/-ik is a diminutive suffix in Kurdish


and in other IE languages. Latin -icus, Greek -άκιον, -ίκιον etc .


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## ancalimon

And also in Turkic languages. -ça, -çe, -ço, -cak, cık, 

küçük > küçücük

There is also the word "çük" meaning a child's penis.


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## PersoLatin

ancalimon said:


> And also in Turkic languages. -ça, -çe, -ço, -cak, cık,
> 
> küçük > küçücük


Can you please provide, one or more, examples for each of the above, with meanings.


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## ancalimon

They are all different diminutive suffixes in different Turkic languages. They have the same function and the list can grow depending on which letters the word they are added to consists of.

In Turkish it's mostly variations of cik (cik, cık, cuk ,cük)
küçük: smal
küçücük: very small

minik: tiny
minicik: very tiny

In other Turkic languages we can see words such as:

kız: child, girl   kızça: little child
tana: calf   tanaça: little calf

Although we can see these words in different regions of Turkey too.

Here's a Turkish source: http://turkoloji.cu.edu.tr/YENI TURK DILI/1958_4_Korkmaz.pdf


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## PersoLatin

ancalimon said:


> In Turkish it's mostly variations of cik (cik, cık, cuk ,cük)
> küçük: smal
> küçücük: very small
> 
> minik: tiny
> minicik: very tiny


 I was hoping for more examples, as we already know & are discussing küçük



ancalimon said:


> In other Turkic languages we can see words such as:
> 
> kız: child, girl kızça: little child
> tana: calf tanaça: little calf



ça as you have it, is a variation of the Persian diminutive suffix چه-čé/ča, other than -ak -ek & -ik, examples:
kuy, kučé
mur, murčé
dig, digčé
bâq, bâqčé
pâ, pâčé
xuk, xukčé and on and on...


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## bragpipes

He meant that küçük can be made even smaller by adding -cük, same with az (a little) azcık (a tiny bit).

Anyway: 
kitap > kitapçık (book, booklet); 
bebe > bebecik (baby, tiny baby);
kedi > kedicik (cat, kitten)


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## ancalimon

PersoLatin said:


> I was hoping for more examples, as we already know & are discussing küçük
> 
> 
> 
> ça as you have it, is a variation of the Persian diminutive suffix چه-čé/ča, other than -ak -ek & -ik, examples:
> kuy, kučé
> mur, murčé
> dig, digčé
> bâq, bâqčé
> pâ, pâčé
> xuk, xukčé and on and on...



Actually the Turkic suffix is not a variation of the Persian suffix but is Turkic. There is also the Persian version of the same suffix in Turkish but not in all Turkic languages (because of lack of any contact). It's not possible to determine which one is Persian in origin and which one is Turkic in origin with the knowledge we have.

For example Chagatay (Eastern Turkic) means "little warrior"  Çağa: child (Turkic) , adai: warrior (Mongolian)
Kipchak means child of tree trunk.  (Kıf çak)


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## PersoLatin

bragpipes said:


> Anyway:
> kitap > kitapçık (book, booklet);
> bebe > bebecik (baby, tiny baby);
> kedi > kedicik (cat, kitten)



These look suspiciously like the Pahlavi (Middle Persian) diminutive suffix, čag/čak (modern چه-čé/ča), please see the following Pahlavi words (Pahlavi Dictionary D.N.MacKenzie)) with the same suffix:
waččag - child, baby, cub - (modern: bačé/bača بَچه)
kulâčag small, round bun - (modern: kolučé کُلوچه)
kafčag spoon - (modern: kafčé کَفچه)
and:
kūč(ak) small

Is bebe really Turkish, or a loan from French?
kitap is the Arabic kitâb + čag, a booklet/pad (modern: ketâbčé کِتابچه)


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## bragpipes

Both bebe and kitap are loanwords, but this diminutive works on words foreign and local.

I don't know if this suffix is a Pahlavi borrowing.   Keep in mind that the suffix's "default" form is with c (/d͡ʒ/) -cik -cık -cuk -cük, and it only becomes ç after *p ç t k f h s ş*.

I don't know if Turkish would borrow -čag and transform it into -cik or take -če and turn it into -cik.

Note that Turkish also has these diminutive suffixes: -cak and -cağız, but they're not neutral like -cık (they have a sense of endearment, pity or empathy).

Having that said, I'm not an expert on Turkish etymology.  Maybe someone more qualified could shed some light.


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## fdb

There is borrowing in both directions. -ča-ka- and -čī-ka- are Old Iranian suffixes, for example in Middle Persian tāzīg “Arab”, from Arabic ṭāy- plus -čīka. These morphemes were borrowed from Sogdian to Old Turkish and then reborrowed from Turkish to New Persian in the Turkic form –če.


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