# πίσω από - ambiguity?



## OssianX

When the object of πίσω από is physical, the meaning is clear -- but I think I'm right that it can mean either "behind (=around in back of)" or "behind (=following after)."  It depends on the object: περπάτησα πίσω απ' το σπίτι, I walked behind the house; περπάτησα πίσω απ' τον οδηγό, I walked behind the guide.  Is that right?

But if the object isn't physical, if the context is metaphorical, it can be harder to decide which meaning applies.  The poem in question begins, "Το παιδί στο σκοτεινό δρόμο πήγαινε δύσπιστο πίσω απ' το τραγούδι του."  I think it probably means that the child mistrustfully followed in the wake of his own song.  But I can also imagine the child exploring suspiciously around the back side of his song.  Is that a possible reading?  In other words, does πίσω από have the same ambiguity as the English "behind"?


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## elliest_5

"Το παιδί στο σκοτεινό δρόμο πήγαινε δύσπιστο πίσω απ' το τραγούδι του."

I m not sure I understand what this phrase means. But you have to keep in mind that "πισω από" is often used to denote something that is hiding behind something else, in other words the true nature of something which hides behind _appearance_s. I think in that respect it's the same as in English: πίσω απ το χαμόγελό του υπήρχε στενοχώρια (behind his smile there was saddness), πίσω απ τα καλά του λόγια υπήρχε ζήλεια (behind his good words there was envy). So here it may be that behind his singing there was uncertainty (although someone who is singing appears to be confident, in reality he was not).

 But then I can also imagine a more iconic meaning like a picture where the sound of the song leads the way (you know, like in cartoons where the song is a wavy five-line staff with notes, coming out of the singer's mouth) and the boy just walks behind it.


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## OssianX

That sounds right to me, though I'm still not sure how "_πήγαινε_ πίσω απ'" works with the something-behind-appearances reading.  Probably the best thing to do is again to translate literally -- "The child on the dark road went mistrustful behind his song" -- and let the reader deal with the mystery.

Thanks as always.


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## shawnee

I wonder if it is at all helpful to think of the child's song (and I haven't fully grasped the effect of δύσπιστο) as a shield against the dark unknown. This is more commonly expressed as whistling in a dark lane way to bolster courage. So it does precede him as in elliest's second example, like a herald signaling his unsure advance. Out of respect for the eminent poet, who I regrettably do not know much of I won't go on ...


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## elliest_5

OssianX said:


> That sounds right to me, though I'm still not sure how "_πήγαινε_ πίσω απ'" works with the something-behind-appearances reading.  Probably the best thing to do is again to translate literally -- "The child on the dark road went mistrustful behind his song" -- and let the reader deal with the mystery.
> 
> Thanks as always.


Oh, in the first reading I separate "πηγαινε " from "δύσπιστο πίσω από": as in "he was walking...." "he was distrustful behind his song (actually meaning: his singing)". Moreover, I wouldn't think that the distrust is towards the song, but towards something else (maybe what lies ahead/what people promised him that he might find at the end of the way etc)...


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## an-alfabeto

Behind whose song was the child going? Here you have some kids going behind/following a song (from the tale _Η μαγική φλογέρα_). But if the child was going behind his own song, it would be worse. In greek _τραγούδι_ is also called _σκοπός,_ which means _μελωδία_ (tune) and _στόχος_. In this case, the child follows incredulous his own τραγούδι/σκοπό, he's not sure if it´s worth following it any more.


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## OssianX

Hm . . . but _can_ you separate πήγαινε from πίσω από?  The gravitational attraction within the sentence is awfully strong.  In any case, I don't know that it makes a difference in translation, unless I inserted a comma where Ritsos doesn't have one ("he went, mistrustful behind his song"), which seems like playing kind of fast & loose.

Anyway, these responses tell me that at least I'm understanding what the poet says.  (A teacher of mine used to say that what the poem _says_ should be as clear as possible, while -- or even so that! -- what it _means_ can be truly mysterious.  It feels like a good principle for poetic translation, too.  Thanks.


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## OssianX

Yes, an-alfabeto, I thought of the Hamelin story.  As you say, maybe worse if the child is his own Pied Piper -- which might motivate him to look "behind" it in the other sense as well.  Later in the poem (which is called "Στον Καιρό των Παραμυθιών") he will come to a tower where the sound of a radio comes through the window, and the sound is his own voice and song, "κάπως βραχνό, αλλοιωμένο ― / όλα τα σύμφωνα είχαν γίνει μαύρες κηλίδες, αφήνοντας / πιο φωτεινά τα φωνήεντα."  A pretty spooky poem.


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## an-alfabeto

OssianX said:


> Hm . . . but _can_ you separate πήγαινε from πίσω από?.


 
In greek you can separate them with no need of a comma. "Δύσπιστος" is attribute to "το παιδί"


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## OssianX

Hm, yes, I see that.  In English, in poetry if not in conversation, you could say "went mistrustful behind his song" and "mistrustful" would act almost-but-not-quite like an adverb.  (I may still take advantage of that in translating the line!)

But that is a liberty of English poetry, perhaps influenced by a time (the Elizabethan for example) when the distinction between adjectives and adverbs was not always sharp.  (We still say "I feel good" when we mean "I feel well.")

I do see that δύσπιστο is clearly an adjective modifying παιδί.  In a sense, nothing in the sentence modifies πήγαινε or definitely specifies how or where he did it.  Thanks, that's very helpful, even though I'm slow on the uptake and waylaid by old poetic habits.  Translation is great discipline!


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## elliest_5

OssianX said:


> Hm, yes, I see that.  In English, in poetry if not in conversation, you could say "went mistrustful behind his song" and "mistrustful" would act almost-but-not-quite like an adverb.  (I may still take advantage of that in translating the line!)
> 
> But that is a liberty of English poetry, perhaps influenced by a time (the Elizabethan for example) when the distinction between adjectives and adverbs was not always sharp.  (We still say "I feel good" when we mean "I feel well.")
> 
> I do see that δύσπιστο is clearly an adjective modifying παιδί.  In a sense, nothing in the sentence modifies πήγαινε or definitely specifies how or where he did it.  Thanks, that's very helpful, even though I'm slow on the uptake and waylaid by old poetic habits.  Translation is great discipline!


Actually, in cases like that "πήγαινε δύσπιστο" , the adjective would be classified as "επιρρηματικό κατηγορούμενο" (adverbial attribute) in terms of traditional syntax, which means that it shares characteristics of both classes (adverbs&adjectives): appart from characterising the boy, it also gives information about the action - "how was he walking?"


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## OssianX

elliest_5 said:


> Actually, in cases like that "πήγαινε δύσπιστο" , the adjective would be classified as "επιρρηματικό κατηγορούμενο" (adverbial attribute) in terms of traditional syntax, which means that it shares characteristics of both classes (adverbs&adjectives): appart from characterising the boy, it also gives information about the action - "how was he walking?"



Then it _is_ as in English.  

Isn't is amazing -- it is to me -- how often simple questions turn out to have layers & layers?  Language is astonishing.

(May I offer a correction?  Your English is magnificent, elliest_5, but in writing you sometimes incorrectly double letters: "sad[d]ness," "ap[p]art."  [As I imagine you know, the doubling of letters in English is unreliably dependent on phonetics and contingent on history.]  If I'm out of line forgive me, but I hope you'll return the favor, on my far more elementary level, when I venture some Greek.  Προσπαθώ να μάθω, αλλά τον εγκέφαλό μου είναι ηλικιωμένο.)

Thanks again.  I'll go ahead with "...went mistrustful behind his song," now with more confidence.


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## elliest_5

OssianX said:


> (May I offer a correction?  Your English is magnificent, elliest_5, but in writing you sometimes incorrectly double letters: "sad[d]ness," "ap[p]art."  [As I imagine you know, the doubling of letters in English is unreliably dependent on phonetics and contingent on history.]  If I'm out of line forgive me, but I hope you'll return the favor, on my far more elementary level, when I venture some Greek.  Προσπαθώ να μάθω, αλλά τον εγκέφαλό μου είναι ηλικιωμένο.)


ha ha! thanks for the correction! I do have this tendency to double consonants (I even do it in Greek! ) - I usually notice the mistake when I reread my texts, but when I write fast they just evade my attention (and I think that the spell-check in word corrects this kind of mistakes automatically, which does not help you learn from your mistakes)
Anyway, we 're all learners here, so corrections and comments are always more than welcome!! (oh, and your Greek is great - you should have used Nominative case for "εγκέφαλος"+"ηλικιωμένος"  in that phrase - "ο εγκέφαλός μου είναι ηλικιωμένος", but apart from that it's fine  - and don't worry, there's no age limit to learning a new language!)


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