# Arabic "Zikir" and Sanskrit चक्रं ˈtʃəkrə̃



## ancalimon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra

_*Chakra*_ is a concept originating from Hindu texts and used in Hindu practices. Its name derives from the Sanskrit word for "wheel" or "turning" (_cakraṃ_ चक्रं [ˈtʃəkrə̃], pronounced [ˈtʃəkrə] in Hindi; Pali: _cakka_ चक्क, Thai: จักระ, Tamil: சக்கரம், Chinese: 轮, Tibetan: འཁོར་ལོ་; _khorlo_).[1]


I think Zikir in Turkish is about the touching, meeting; relation between God and human:  Humans are always near God, but they can never cross the line to understand all They can only touch the surface. It's about the balance. (I think Tengri is related to this balance as well)

I don't know how to write the Turkish word "ZİKİR" (which I think entered Turkish through Arabic but entered Arabic through a Turkic dialect before) in Arabic but the concept are the same in Hinduism and Islam.

What do you think about these two words?


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## Flaminius

The Turkish word is a loan from Arabic, in which the word is _dhikr_ (ذکر‎).  The word is derived from the root dh-k-r (remember).  A cursory search makes me believe the purpose of _dhikr_ practice is to be remembered favourably by Allah.  The semantic connection between remembering and favour is decidedly a Semitic cultural aspect.  I don't see any reason to invoke a Sanskrit word to understand _zikir_.

Another Semitic language, Hebrew, attests to this connection in one of the oldest literatures of the world.

In Genesis chapter 40, Josef asks Pharaoh's butler to remember him for Pharaoh.  He is in prison and wants to be out by butler's kind mention.  The Hebrew word "to remember" derives from the same root as the Arabic one.


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## ancalimon

Isn't Muslims revolving around Kaaba a Dhikr?  Or Sufis turning around a Dhikr?  I find these extremely related to the cross sign in a circle (symbolic evocation of Tengri)  and TEKER  (wheel)  or the SWASTIKA


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## origumi

Flaminius said:


> Another Semitic language, Hebrew, attests to this connection in one of the oldest literatures of the world.


To emphasize this point: Hebrew zikaron זכרון = memory (root zkr, cognate of Arabic dhkr) appears several times in the Bible meaning "remember / be remembered favourably by God". For example Exodus 28:12, Exodus 39:7, Numbers 5:15.


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## ancalimon

We also have "tekerleme" in Turkish.

Teker: wheel, cycle, loop

tekerleme: nursery rhyme, mantra

dhikr: ~ ?  related?

also we have a proverb   :  davul bile dengi dengine çalar:  (even the drum plays rhythmically & equally, coherently, matching):   this proverb tells us that a female or a male should find someone suitable, worth of him/her. And it also tells us that drums sound rhythmic (denk). It also tells us that drum makes the "dengi dengi" (imitative of the sound) sound.

Basically it tells us three things at once.

Finally if you want to memorize something, you have to repeat something over and over again...


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## origumi

From the Starling database:

Proto-Turkic: *deg- / *d£g- / *dog-
Meaning: round
Middle Turkic: tekirme, tekirmi
Turkish: degirmi 'circle'

http://www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/response..._any=tekirme&method_any=substring&sort=number


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## ancalimon

origumi said:


> From the Starling database:
> 
> Proto-Turkic: *deg- / *d£g- / *dog-
> Meaning: round
> Middle Turkic: tekirme, tekirmi
> Turkish: degirmi 'circle'
> 
> http://www.ieed.nl/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Calt%5Cturcet&first=1&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&text_atu=&method_atu=substring&text_krh=&method_krh=substring&text_trk=&method_trk=substring&text_tat=&method_tat=substring&text_chg=&method_chg=substring&text_uzb=&method_uzb=substring&text_uig=&method_uig=substring&text_sjg=&method_sjg=substring&text_azb=&method_azb=substring&text_trm=&method_trm=substring&text_hak=&method_hak=substring&text_shr=&method_shr=substring&text_alt=&method_alt=substring&text_khal=&method_khal=substring&text_chv=&method_chv=substring&text_jak=&method_jak=substring&text_dolg=&method_dolg=substring&text_tuv=&method_tuv=substring&text_tof=&method_tof=substring&text_krg=&method_krg=substring&text_kaz=&method_kaz=substring&text_nogx=&method_nogx=substring&text_bas=&method_bas=substring&text_blkx=&method_blkx=substring&text_gagx=&method_gagx=substring&text_krmx=&method_krmx=substring&text_klpx=&method_klpx=substring&text_sal=&method_sal=substring&text_qum=&method_qum=substring&text_reference=&method_reference=substring&text_any=tekirme&method_any=substring&sort=number



Turkic teker and Sanskrit ˈtʃəkrə look like they are cognates.  (daire: circle, closed space, inside a circle       değirmen: mill )

Also Turkish ÇEK (pull, to force that makes something move, that carries something),  ÇEKER: it carries, it pulls, it moves  this also seems to be related


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## Abu Rashid

Interestingly the origin of this root is with the meaning of "male" and some even suggest "phallus".

The word appears in Ugaritic texts and Akkadian, and is therefore much older than even the Biblical period.

Although I guess this could just be a secondary root with the same radicals.


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## Abu Rashid

Ancalimon said:
			
		

> What do you think about these two words?



I think you're off your proverbial rocker, as usual. I am astounded each time though the lengths you will goto, suspending reason and reality, to try and de-couple Turkish from its Arabic influence and to promote it as some "first language".


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## origumi

ancalimon said:


> Turkic teker and Sanskrit ˈtʃəkrə look like they are cognates. (daire: circle, closed space, inside a circle değirmen: mill )


According to the same database:

Proto-IE: *kʷekʷl-o-
Meaning: wheel
Old Indian: cakrá- n. (Ved. m.) `wheel'
Avestan: čaxra- m. 'Rad'
Old Greek: kǘklo-s m.

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=1&text_proto=&method_proto=substring&ic_proto=on&text_meaning=&method_meaning=substring&ic_meaning=on&text_hitt=&method_hitt=substring&ic_hitt=on&text_tokh=&method_tokh=substring&ic_tokh=on&text_ind=&method_ind=substring&ic_ind=on&text_avest=&method_avest=substring&ic_avest=on&text_iran=&method_iran=substring&ic_iran=on&text_arm=&method_arm=substring&ic_arm=on&text_greek=&method_greek=substring&ic_greek=on&text_slav=&method_slav=substring&ic_slav=on&text_balt=&method_balt=substring&ic_balt=on&text_germ=&method_germ=substring&ic_germ=on&text_lat=&method_lat=substring&ic_lat=on&text_ital=&method_ital=substring&ic_ital=on&text_celt=&method_celt=substring&ic_celt=on&text_alb=&method_alb=substring&ic_alb=on&text_rusmean=&method_rusmean=substring&ic_rusmean=on&text_refer=&method_refer=substring&ic_refer=on&text_comment=&method_comment=substring&ic_comment=on&text_any=*k%CA%B7ek%CA%B7l-o-&method_any=substring&sort=proto&ic_any=on

According to this, the chakra = teker is a false etymology. Just an incidental similar meaning-sound pair.


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## ancalimon

Abu Rashid said:


> I think you're off your proverbial rocker, as usual. I am astounded each time though the lengths you will goto, suspending reason and reality, to try and de-couple Turkish from its Arabic influence and to promote it as some "first language".



No, I totally agree with the Arabic influence. What I wonder is whether this word somehow entered from a further Turkic or Indian source in old times. Hypothetically speaking; maybe via some migrating family which brought the word with them?

For example, is there a known or hypothetical connection between the Kurus of India and a family among Arabs?
http://www.jatland.com/home/Kuru


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## ancalimon

Abu Rashid said:


> Interestingly the origin of this root is with the meaning of "male" and some even suggest "phallus".
> 
> The word appears in Ugaritic texts and Akkadian, and is therefore much older than even the Biblical period.
> 
> Although I guess this could just be a secondary root with the same radicals.



I didn't understand. Could you please explain the male, phallus connection with Zikir and Chakra ?

ÇAK also means energy transfer in Turkic. For example: ÇAKMAK TAŞI: flint stone.  or we say Şimşek Çaktı  (lightning stroke).  It's related to Turkic mythology in which "sky" makes love with the "earth (the egg)" and the "rain" is seen as the "sperm" of the sky fertilizing life. And the "lightning" the motion-power-torque of the intercourse between sky and earth.

Turks use the slang "chack (çak)" when they mean "I slept with that girl (I don't want to use the nasty word)" ; "kıza çaktım"


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## Flaminius

You are doing something very strange, *ancalimon*.  First, you mentioned that Turkish _zikir_ may be related to Sanskrit _cakra_.  Well, it turned out to be unrelated.  Then you assumed _teker_ is related to the same Sanskrit word.  Once again unrelated.  Then you brought up _çek_.  I am sorry to say this but checking a haphazard list of Turkish words is a waste of time, energy, erudition and electron.  

Let me take a shotcut then.  Why do you assume that _cakra_ has entered the Turkish language?   You even don't know how it entered.


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## ancalimon

Flaminius said:


> You are doing something very strange, *ancalimon*.  First, you mentioned that Turkish _zikir_ may be related to Sanskrit _cakra_.  Well, it turned out to be unrelated.  Then you assumed _teker_ is related to the same Sanskrit word.  Once again unrelated.  Then you brought up _çek_.  I am sorry to say this but checking a haphazard list of Turkish words is a waste of time, energy, erudition and electron.
> 
> Let me take a shotcut then.  Why do you assume that _cakra_ has entered the Turkish language?   You even don't know how it entered.



I think it's related to someone giving too much value to the plus sign in a circle and the wheel.

Here's is more information:

http://til.gov.kz/wps/portal/!ut/p/...YCNDd38jA6MwR6MAUw8vQwMXM_3g1Dz9gmxHRQBwbhzv/http://til.gov.kz/wps/portal/!ut/p/c0/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3hTA3cDA3fLYCNDd38jA6MwR6MAUw8vQwMXM_3g1Dz9gmxHRQBwbhzv/


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## Abu Rashid

Ancalimon said:
			
		

> What I wonder is whether this word somehow entered from a further Turkic or Indian source in old times.



As the root exists in Akkadian & Ugaritic (albeit with the 'male' meaning), I don't think so.



			
				Ancalimon said:
			
		

> I didn't understand. Could you please explain the male, phallus connection with Zikir and Chakra ?



The Semitic root dh-k-r has both the meaning of remembrance/reminding and male/man.

I have read that the connection may be due to man being the creature with the best memory, but it seems to just be conjecture.


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## Mahaodeh

Abu Rashid said:


> I have read that the connection may be due to man being the creature with the best memory, but it seems to just be conjecture.



This would contradict why human (insaan) was called so, there are two suggestions one says that s/he is called insaan because he forgets (yansa). But I guess this is a subject for another thread .


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## Abu Rashid

Maha, I thought about that, but not necessarily. Although we do have a propensity to forget, we are still great at remembering too. Perhaps they are both a by-product of free will?


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