# tootle toodle



## ManOfWords

tootle toodle _<-----Topic added to post by moderator (Florentia52)----->_

Hi all, wouldn't these words have the same pronunciation in some parts of the USA? how to distinguish them when they seem to have similar meanings ... by guess?  hunch?


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## Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

Both of these words are rarely used. Can you explain what you think they nean, and why, if their meanings a similar, it would be important to distinguish them?


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## ManOfWords

Hercules Grytpype-Thynne said:


> Both of these words are rarely used. Can you explain what you think they nean, and why, if their meanings a similar, it would be important to distinguish them?


No I mean, I am very curious about languages (English mainly) compared to my own language which, by the way, wouldn't have that happening ... (we wouldn't say a word that sound so similar to another and also have such a similar meaning and could not be able to distinguish them {as I think it is the case here) ... or ... are they _somehow _distinguishable? If I said, (well, it's time to toodle off to my home) and there were 50 people around me typing/writing it down what I just said, would it be a mix of tootles and toodles? would each person pick a specific word out of the blue for what they though I spoke? The point is, I am curious about how English functions ... my native language does not have some traits that I do see (and want to know if they are true) in English ...


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## dojibear

ManOfWords said:


> If I said, (well, it's time to toodle off to my home) and there were 50 people around me typing/writing it down what I just said, would it be a mix of tootles and toodles?



No. People that know the phrase "toodle off to" would write that. The rare word "tootle" isn't used that way. As far as I know you can "tootle a tune on a flute" but the word "tootle" has no other uses. So anyone who knows both words would write "toodle".

If any of your 50 English speakers hear a word they don't recognize, they may just write "?". Or they may guess what spelling to use for this unknown word. But they will always put a question mark after it, like this:

too dull(?)

English does not have any rules for writing words phonetically. If we don't know the word, we may write anything: tootle, toodle, tudel, tudil, two dell, tudell, tudille, doodle (a word!), dudelle (dudette?) or something else.


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## Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

The English language has many words that are homophones.  _New _and _knew_; _tale _and _tail_; _raise _and _raze_; _too _and _two_; _told _and _tolled_; and so forth.  We tell them apart by context.


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## ManOfWords

dojibear said:


> No. People that know the phrase "toodle off to" would write that. The rare word "tootle" isn't used that way. As far as I know you can "tootle a tune on a flute" but the word "tootle" has no other uses. So anyone who knows both words would write "toodle".
> 
> If any of your 50 English speakers hear a word they don't recognize, they may just write "?". Or they may guess what spelling to use for this unknown word. But they will always put a question mark after it, like this:
> 
> too dull(?)
> 
> English does not have any rules for writing words phonetically. If we don't know the word, we may write anything: tootle, toodle, tudel, tudil, two dell, tudell, tudille, doodle (a word!), dudelle (dudette?) or something else.


 that's something new to me .. so, you are native (right?) and has it ever happened to you? Like when kid, a teacher giving a dictation to the class, would it sometimes happen to kids to write something down with an ? mark and then correct/compare later with a classmate if they didn't know/hear the word?


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## ManOfWords

Hercules Grytpype-Thynne said:


> The English language has many words that are homophones.  _New _and _knew_; _tale _and _tail_; _raise _and _raze_; _too _and _two_; _told _and _tolled_; and so forth.  We tell them apart by context.


and if by context even then I (native for instance) got mixed up?! I would do as dojibear said right? (wright?)?


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## Cenzontle

I don't find "too*d*le" in an unabridged English dictionary.
I do find "too*t*le" with both meanings listed:  to make a repeated tooting sound, and to make one's way (e.g. "tootle off to bed")—the latter is surely informal.
There is also "toddle" (with a different vowel sound, of course), basically to walk with the wobbly gait of a child, but also "to make one's way" (also informal).
Yes, children do sometimes make spelling errors based on the t/d merger:
My niece, at an early age, wrote "Mommy tities [for 'tidies'] up the room with her little sweeping broom".
Here is a page entitled "Portuguese terms with homophones".  Probably all languages have them, although maybe English has more.


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## Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

ManOfWords said:


> and if by context even then I (native for instance) got mixed up?! I would do as dojibear said right? (wright?)?


It's quite possible to get mixed up with English spellings.  Almost any blog thread conducted in English will be full of misspellings (_principal _for _principle_, _populous _for _populace_, etc.).  Some people are better at spelling than others.  You don't see anybody replacing whole words with question marks, but occasionally someone will spell a word out and then, feeling uncomfortable about whether the spelling is correct, add "(sp?)" after the word, meaning "(have I spelled that correctly?)".


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## dojibear

Cenzontle said:


> There is also "toddle" (with a different vowel sound, of course), basically to walk with the wobbly gait of a child, but also "to make one's way" (also informal).



Thanks! I agree, it is "toddle off", not "toodle off". 

In the US, there is an old-fashioned expression meaning "good-bye!", which is "toodle-oo!".



ManOfWords said:


> has it ever happened to you? Like when kid, a teacher giving a dictation to the class, would it sometimes happen to kids to write something down with an ? mark



I was talking about your example, where you were speaking and 50 adults were trying to write down what you said. You did not tell us the exact instructions you gave those 50 people, so I made assumptions. As an adult, reading text by other adults, I often see "(?)" after a word if the writer is not sure it is correct -- especially when the writer is quoting spoken English, which matches your example situation.

It is a completely different situation to talk about kids, when a teacher is giving dictation. Why would a teacher say words that the students did not know? They would not. That situation has never happened to me, and I doubt it has happened to anyone.

In fact "teacher giving dictation and students have to write it down" has never happened to me, other than spelling tests, where the teacher says single words and students must write them. Since that is a test or a quiz, you don't have the option of getting the answer from someone else as you talk about: you either spell it correctly or get marked wrong.


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## PaulQ

ManOfWords said:


> (well, it's time to *toodle *off to my home)


In BE, that is wrong. It would either be "tootle" or "toddle"

As far as I am aware "toodle" is only used in the now all but obsolete phrases "toodle pip!" and "toodle-loo" (upper-class slang)  = "goodbye".

*Toodle*, in the OED is given as "possible dialect - "to hum"" and Etonian slang, "to hunt birds in hedgerows."

"*Tootle*" is given as "to play a wind instrument", or "to walk aimlessly or depart"


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## Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

PaulQ said:


> In BE, that is wrong. It would either be "tootle" or "toddle"
> 
> As far as I am aware "toodle" is only used in the now all but obsolete phrases "toodle pip!" and "toodle-loo" (upper-class slang)  = "goodbye".


Sometimes abbreviated "toodles".  (But never, in my experience, "toodle".)


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## ManOfWords

dojibear said:


> Thanks! I agree, it is "toddle off", not "toodle off".
> 
> In the US, there is an old-fashioned expression meaning "good-bye!", which is "toodle-oo!".
> 
> 
> 
> I was talking about your example, where you were speaking and 50 adults were trying to write down what you said. You did not tell us the exact instructions you gave those 50 people, so I made assumptions. As an adult, reading text by other adults, I often see "(?)" after a word if the writer is not sure it is correct -- especially when the writer is quoting spoken English, which matches your example situation.
> 
> It is a completely different situation to talk about kids, when a teacher is giving dictation. Why would a teacher say words that the students did not know? They would not. That situation has never happened to me, and I doubt it has happened to anyone.
> 
> In fact "teacher giving dictation and students have to write it down" has never happened to me, other than spelling tests, where the teacher says single words and students must write them. Since that is a test or a quiz, you don't have the option of getting the answer from someone else as you talk about: you either spell it correctly or get marked wrong.


well here in Brasil we do ''have dictations'' from teachers (and that happens when we are quite young - 8/9y to 12) and the teachers can't possibly know what words we do know or don't, since he she is reading out loud from a book with no ''limited'' words ...


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## ManOfWords

PaulQ said:


> In BE, that is wrong. It would either be "tootle" or "toddle"
> 
> As far as I am aware "toodle" is only used in the now all but obsolete phrases "toodle pip!" and "toodle-loo" (upper-class slang)  = "goodbye".
> 
> *Toodle*, in the OED is given as "possible dialect - "to hum"" and Etonian slang, "to hunt birds in hedgerows."
> 
> "*Tootle*" is given as "to play a wind instrument", or "to walk aimlessly or depart"


upper class slang? lower classes wouldn't use it then?


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## ManOfWords

'Toodle-oo' - the meaning and origin of this phrase


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## ManOfWords

Cenzontle said:


> I don't find "too*d*le" in an unabridged English dictionary.
> I do find "too*t*le" with both meanings listed:  to make a repeated tooting sound, and to make one's way (e.g. "tootle off to bed")—the latter is surely informal.
> There is also "toddle" (with a different vowel sound, of course), basically to walk with the wobbly gait of a child, but also "to make one's way" (also informal).
> Yes, children do sometimes make spelling errors based on the t/d merger:
> My niece, at an early age, wrote "Mommy tities [for 'tidies'] up the room with her little sweeping broom".
> Here is a page entitled "Portuguese terms with homophones".  Probably all languages have them, although maybe English has more.


but these homophones aren't quite my point, because what I meant was (if you happen to find in my language) a word that sound the same as another (when spoken) but, spelling differs AND quite have similar meanings but also differ ... so that we wouldn't know what to understand (there would be a subtle difference from one another whether I chose to understand one or another word that I thought that person would be speaking) hope I made as clear as possible if not I'll try again and again ...


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## heypresto

ManOfWords said:


> *U*pper class slang? *L*ower classes wouldn't use it then?



Why the shocked face? Slang isn't the preserve of the lower classes. Toffs can, and do, use slang too.


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## ManOfWords

PaulQ said:


> In BE, that is wrong. It would either be "tootle" or "toddle"
> 
> As far as I am aware "toodle" is only used in the now all but obsolete phrases "toodle pip!" and "toodle-loo" (upper-class slang)  = "goodbye".
> 
> *Toodle*, in the OED is given as "possible dialect - "to hum"" and Etonian slang, "to hunt birds in hedgerows."
> 
> "*Tootle*" is given as "to play a wind instrument", or "to walk aimlessly or depart"


Hmm so here, if I said (Yesterday I saw Jimmy ''tootling" in the park) and in these scenario for most mixing up as possible I am i a place where "to hunt birds in hedgerows" is widely spoken as well as "to play a wind instrument" ... so I would have to ask even more because the words (even with different spellings) have very different meaning .. just by hearing Jimmy was toodling I wouldn't be able to know, I'd only guess at best, am I right?


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## entangledbank

We have a newly-named phenomenon, the eggcorn (and a database of them), where some people write a word or expression in a way that suggests they're analysing it differently from people. The different spelling of an eggcorn makes sense in its context, it's not merely a spelling mistake or a confusion. Examples are _bold-faced lie_ for _bald-faced lie_, _deep-seeded fear_ for _deep-seated fear_, or _old wise tale_ for _old wives' tail_.


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## ManOfWords

heypresto said:


> Why the shocked face? Slang isn't the preserve of the lower classes. Toffs can, and do, use slang too.


because toodle-oo has such a simple meaning (goodbye see you later) that I don't see how it only got stuck with the upper class ...


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## ManOfWords

entangledbank said:


> We have a newly-named phenomenon, the eggcorn (and a database of them), where some people write a word or expression in a way that suggests they're analysing it differently from people. The different spelling of an eggcorn makes sense in its context, it's not merely a spelling mistake or a confusion. Examples are _bold-faced lie_ for _bald-faced lie_, _deep-seeded fear_ for _deep-seated fear_, or _old wise tale_ for _old wives' tail_.


 interesting


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## srk

ManOfWords said:


> toodle-oo has such a simple meaning


What does simple meaning have to do with it?  "I own a yacht" has a simple meaning, but poor people don't say it.


ManOfWords said:


> I don't see how it only got stuck with the upper class


Classes tend to look down their noses at one another.  If "toodle-oo" originates in one class, it is unlikely to be adopted by another.


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## Hermione Golightly

I'd say that anybody who uses 'toodle-loo' nowadays is being funny in much the same way as somebody who says 'tar-ra' or 'ta-ta' when it's not part of their dialect or regional speech.
Talking about dictation, I can't recall having it for English.
For French, yes, I suppose because of the silent end letters, like 's' for plural nouns and verb forms. We had endless English spellings to learn of course, ten every day except Friday for six years. Friday we would be tested on the preceding 40. We had all sorts of sentences to complete in which we had to fill the blank with the correct option from the homophones like  'there/they're/their'. Or you might have to choose between somewhat similar words, or common mistakes, or frequently misused words.

By the time we were 10/11 years old, we had to spell and write as correctly as adults, if we wanted to get into the top level schools, the 'grammar' sector, in a selective system.

We read our 'set' literature books aloud, one each term, and studied any unusual vocabulary. We also did a lot of reading comprehension using a huge variety of text excerpts.
Even in those far-off days there was a huge emphasis on creative writing, using your imagination, and _essay_ writing which involved writing a coherent text. I never once did a multiple choice test in 13 years of primary and secondary schooling, nor of course at university.


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## ManOfWords

srk said:


> What does simple meaning have to do with it?  "I own a yacht" has a simple meaning, but poor people don't say it.
> 
> Classes tend to look down their noses at one another.  If "toodle-oo" originates in one class, it is unlikely to be adopted by another.


Got it .. but the ''simple meaning'' I mentioned there was that its meaning had not to do with rich hobbies for example (that would thus explain its limited usages) ... got it?  and besides, toodle-oo sounds odd if a lower class used it? why?


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## ManOfWords

Hermione Golightly said:


> I'd say that anybody who uses 'toodle-loo' nowadays is being funny in much the same way as somebody who says 'tar-ra' or 'ta-ta' when it's not part of their dialect or regional speech.
> Talking about dictation, I can't recall having it for English.
> For French, yes, I suppose because of the silent end letters, like 's' for plural nouns and verb forms. We had endless English spellings to learn of course, ten every day except Friday for six years. Frisay we would be tested on the preceding 40. We had all sorts of sentences, to complete in which we had to fill the blank with the correct option from the homophones like  'there/they're/their'. Or you might have to choose between somewhat similar words, or common mistakes, or frequently misused words.
> 
> By the time we were 10/11 years old, we had to spell and write as correctly as adults, if we wanted to get into the top level schools, the 'grammar' sector, in a selective system.
> 
> We read our 'set' literature books aloud, one each term, and studied any unusual vocabulary. We also did a lot of reading comprehension using a huge variety of text excerpts.
> Even in those far-off days there was a huge emphasis on creative writing, using your imagination, and _essay_ writing which involved writing a coherent text. I never once did a multiple choice test in 13 years of primary and secondary schooling, nor of course at university.


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## ManOfWords

entangledbank said:


> We have a newly-named phenomenon, the eggcorn (and a database of them), where some people write a word or expression in a way that suggests they're analysing it differently from people. The different spelling of an eggcorn makes sense in its context, it's not merely a spelling mistake or a confusion. Examples are _bold-faced lie_ for _bald-faced lie_, _deep-seeded fear_ for _deep-seated fear_, or _old wise tale_ for _old wives' tail_.


and .. have you ever committed an eggcorn? or seen one recently among your friends?


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## Myridon

ManOfWords said:


> and .. have you ever committed an eggcorn? or seen one recently among your friends?


We have an 18 page thread on You've got another 'thing' / 'think' coming?


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## srk

ManOfWords said:


> toodle-oo sounds odd if an lower class used it? why?


Simply because once expressions become associated with a particular group of people, they sound odd when used by a dissimilar group.  It would be odd to hear you use "toodle-oo" in everyday speech, because your native language is Portuguese.  People learning a language can sound odd when they use colloquialisms in the new language.  When constructions used by people totally at ease with a language appear next to elementary mistakes in grammar, it sounds odd.


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## ManOfWords

Myridon said:


> We have an 18 page thread on You've got another 'thing' / 'think' coming?


wow that's a book


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## ManOfWords

srk said:


> Simply because once expressions become associated with a particular group of people, they sound odd when used by a dissimilar group.  It would be odd to hear you use "toodle-oo" in everyday speech, because your native language is Portuguese.  People learning a language can sound odd when they use colloquialisms in the new language.  When constructions used by people totally at ease with a language appear next to elementary mistakes in grammar, it sounds odd.


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## MarcB

In my entire life I've never heard a live person say either of those two expressions. My only reference is from old movies or TV shows mostly made before I was born.


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## TPJones491

I've only heard someone use this word in the plural form. As in "toodles." Am I the only one here that's found this to be true?


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## JulianStuart

‘Knock, knock!’
‘Who’s there?’ 
‘Toodle’ 
‘Toodle who?’
‘Goodbye!’ (or ‘Leaving already?’)


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## Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

TPJones491 said:


> I've only heard someone use this word in the plural form. As in "toodles." Am I the only one here that's found this to be true?


See my #12.


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## Trochfa

Hermione Golightly said:


> I'd say that anybody who uses 'toodle-loo' nowadays is being funny


 

I remember my grandparents (born in the early 1900's) saying it as a joke in the early 1970's. Mind you, they also used to call "woof woof" to each other when one of them arrived back home.

Which in turn brings to mind a sad old joke:

A: I'm off, toodle-oo!
B: Where are you going then?
A: I just told you!


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## lingobingo

Seems a shame not to add to this thread, even though I'm not even sure what's being asked any more.

I'm now feeling rather silly, because I regularly say, if I'm popping out for a drive simply to get out of the house for a while: _See you later, I'm just going for a tootle._

Toodle-loo I've never heard of – it was always toodle-oo. Also toodle-pip (as in #11). Both meaning goodbye.

I don't know what toodles means. Never heard of it.

Yes, we used to have English dictation, even at primary school I think. I still remember my embarrassment when I had to guess the spelling of *used* and wrote it as *yoused*.


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## ManOfWords

Trochfa said:


> I remember my grandparents (born in the early 1900's) saying it as a joke in the early 1970's. Mind you, they also used to call "woof woof" to each other when one of them arrived back home.
> 
> Which in turn brings to mind a sad old joke:
> 
> A: I'm off, toodle-oo!
> B: Where are you going then?
> A: I just told you!


woof woof? and is it in the dictionary?  if it is not, that's a treasure that dictionaries haven't gotten hold of ...


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## ManOfWords

lingobingo said:


> Seems a shame not to add to this thread, even though I'm not even sure what's being asked any more.
> 
> I'm now feeling rather silly, because I regularly say, if I'm popping out for a drive simply to get out of the house for a while: _See you later, I'm just going for a tootle._
> 
> Toodle-loo I've never heard of – it was always toodle-oo. Also toodle-pip (as in #11). Both meaning goodbye.
> 
> I don't know what toodles means. Never heard of it.
> 
> Yes, we used to have English dictation, even at primary school I think. I still remember my embarrassment when I had to guess the spelling of *used* and wrote it as *yoused*.


Thanks ... that's golden facts ... (used / yoused) in Brasil we mix up words with ss sc or ç and z with s ... they have the same sounds ...


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## ManOfWords

A: I'm off, toodle-oo!
B: Where are you going then?
A: I just told you!

Sorry guys, explain the joke I don't get it ... (is it funny?)


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## lingobingo

The joke is that it sounds like "I'm off to the loo".


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## PaulQ

"I'm off, toodle-oo!" sounds very similar to "I'm off to the loo."

(I think we're going to have difficulty making an Englishman of you... )

(Crossposted - with legs crossed.)


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## ManOfWords

simple ... should have guessed ...


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## ManOfWords

Yeah .. one day I'll go to a country where English is spoken ... practice a bit ... I've been studying English in Brasil since I was 13y ... now I am 27 ...


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