# If I were a boy



## Marcos Arroyo

Hola,

Hay una canción de Beyonce, cuyo titulo y en las letras dice "If I were a boy".

Imagino que ha de tener alguna explicación, pero por más que la busco no la encuentro.

Supuestamente para mi criterio sería "If I was a boy", tanto yo como chico serían primera y tercera persona. Otro caso sería "If I were you", traducido como "yo en tu lugar".

Gracias de antemano por cualquier aclaración.


----------



## Chris K

It's _were_ instead of _was_ because it's a contrary-to-fact situation that calls for the subjunctive. Many English speakers do not make the distinction and simply say "if I was a boy," but this is not considered correct.


----------



## VivaReggaeton88

I'd say "*If I was a boy*". I don't know if it's right but my reasoning is:

In the past tense, I'd say:

I *was* there yesterday, not were.
You *were* there yesterday, not was.

That's why I think with the subject *I* you would use *was* and not *were*.


----------



## Marcos Arroyo

Now I'm lost.

Chris K said it's correct "If I were a boy" and not correct "If I was a boy", but VivaReggaeton88 said it's correct "If I was a boy".

Both are native english speakers.

I think "If I were a boy" could have some kind of mean not usual. But I'm spanish, so I'd need to know if is possible translation for this sentence, please.

Anyway thanks in advance for your help.
_________________

Ahora estoy perdido.

Chris K dice que es correcto "If I were a boy" y no lo es "If I was a boy", pero VivaReggaeton88 dice que es correcto "If I was a boy".

Ambos son nativos de habla inglesa

Pienso que "If I were a boy" Podría tener algún tipo de significado inusual. Pero soy español, Así que si es pisible necesitaría la tradución de la frase, por favor.

De todos modos gracias adelantadas por vuestra ayuda.


----------



## urciman

"Si yo fuera un chico", sería la traducción en español.WERE is often used instead of WAS after IF in conditional sentences(Type II), to express hypothetical, imaginary situations.
I hope it will help you.


----------



## FromPA

It requires the subjunctive (were), exactly as in Spanish.  "Were" in this case is subjunctive mood, not past tense.


----------



## Lis48

I agree with Urciman, FromPA and Chris K.  You should always use the subjunctive after _if_ to suggest a hypothetical situation e.g. if I were lucky, if it were to rain, if I were a boy, if I were you. 
But in casual, informal, spoken language, many people use the present tense e.g. if I was lucky, if it was to rain, if I was a boy, if I was you. 
Just make sure you use the subjunctive in an English exam or in any formal letter!


----------



## Marina Urquidi

Definitely the subjunctive: "were"... like in Spanish. For information, use of the subjunctive has been basically dropped in England and is still used naturally (without thinking) in the U.S. When I work as a copy editor for UK media I am not even allowed to use the subjunctive, because it sounds wrong to them, but it happens to be absolutely, grammatically correct. To me as an American, "If I was you" or "If I was a boy" sounds uneducated, even though I know the UK has dropped the subjunctive even in "good" writing or literature.

In fact, in France, an English teacher (French, of course) would count "If I were" as a mistake, much to my dismay!


----------



## FromPA

Lis48 said:


> But in casual, informal, spoken language, many people use the present tense e.g. if I was lucky, if it was to rain, if I was a boy, if I was you.
> Just make sure you use the subjunctive in an English exam or in any formal letter!


 
I would agree that you will often hear and read "If I was you..", just as you will hear any number of other ungrammatical statements.  But please don't imitate it thinking that this is typical "casual, informal, spoken language."  It's language from people who don't know English grammer, and it sounds awful.


----------



## Camilo1964

Marcos Arroyo said:


> Ahora estoy perdido.
> 
> Chris K dice que es correcto "If I were a boy" y no lo es "If I was a boy", pero VivaReggaeton88 dice que es correcto "If I was a boy".
> 
> Ambos son nativos de habla inglesa
> 
> Pienso que "If I were a boy" Podría tener algún tipo de significado inusual. Pero soy español, Así que si es pisible necesitaría la tradución de la frase, por favor.
> 
> De todos modos gracias adelantadas por vuestra ayuda.


 Yo no soy angloparlante nativo pero opino que el _were _aquí es uno de los pocos ejemplos del subjuntivo en inglés. Creo que es necesario, porque si no sería como si en español dijeras: _Si yo fuí un chico_ o _Si yo era un chico_ (tiempos preterito perfecto e imperfecto) y no la condicionalidad que el _if_ establece y que en español sólo se resuelve con el subjuntivo.

Otro ejemplo clásico de subjuntivo, casi idéntico a este caso y también tomado de una canción, es la famosa frase _If I were rich_, esto es, _Si yo fuera rico_.

Saludos,

Camilo


----------



## Marcos Arroyo

Thank you so much,

Now that clear.

*Should as Subjunctive*

 After many of the above expressions, the word "should" is sometimes used to express the idea of subjunctiveness. This form is used more frequently in British English and is most common after the verbs "suggest," "recommend" and "insist."


Great.


I hope it'll help any user else.


Thanks again.


----------



## Lis48

Marina Urquidi said:


> For information, use of the subjunctive has been basically dropped in England ... the UK has dropped the subjunctive even in "good" writing or literature.
> In fact, in France, an English teacher (French, of course) would count "If I were" as a mistake, much to my dismay!


 UK has not dropped the subjunctive at all in "good" writing or literature and any English teacher in the UK would correct "If I was there" as being grammatically incorrect.
 "I suggest/recommend/insist you _should_ go" is very formal and old fashioned. You would normally hear " I suggest/recommend/insist you go" where "go" is actually subjunctive though difficult to tell as the form is the same as the simple present tense.


----------



## Adge

The use of "were" subjunctive in hypothetical situations like this is disapearing from the speech of younger generations (including educated speakers) and being repalced with "was" in most instances. I've actually been "corrected" by classmates for saying, "If I were..."   Last I checked, "were" is still the acceptable form for writing, but it's certainly not the one I hear.


----------



## neal41

Lis48 said:


> "I suggest/recommend/insist you _should_ go" is very formal and old fashioned. You would normally hear " I suggest/recommend/insist you go" where "go" is actually subjunctive though difficult to tell as the form is the same as the simple present tense.


 
Use the third person and you will clearly see/hear the subjunctive.

I suggest/recommend/insist that he *go* . . .


----------



## neal41

urciman said:


> "Si yo fuera un chico", sería la traducción en español.WERE is often used instead of WAS after IF in conditional sentences(Type II), to express hypothetical, imaginary situations.


 
Actually WAS is often used instead of WERE by people who do not speak/write carefully.


----------



## cheesycarrion

Just another note: Though a lot of people won't notice when "was" is used instead of "were" as a subjunctive, the expression "If I were you" said as "If I was you" will sound bad to anybody.


----------



## aztlaniano

Lis48 said:


> I agree with Urciman, FromPA and Chris K. You should always use the subjunctive after _if_ to suggest a hypothetical situation. quote]
> Concuerdo con Chris K, Urciman, From PA et alia, y por tanto con Lis.
> Quisiera resaltar que if + subjuntivo es, efectivamente, sólo para una situación hipotética. No debe resultar difícil para un hispanohablante saber cuándo debe usar el subjuntivo y cuando no, ya que usa el subjuntivo constantemente en español.
> Se puede decir, por ejemplo, "if I were lucky these things wouldn't happen to me" (si tuviera suerte esas cosas no me pasarían) o se puede decir "I don't know if I was lucky or if I had help" (No sé si tuve suerte o si alguien me ayudó).
> En el caso que nos ocupa, puesto que Beyoncé *no* es, en realidad, varón, lo correcto es: "if I were a boy", al igual que se diría en español "si fuera chico" y no "si era chico" (aunque es cierto que mucha gente diría en inglés "if I was a boy".)
> saludos


----------



## lqs2n

Marcos:  Tienes que decir "if I WERE a boy."  The WERE es el subjuntivo en inglés.


----------



## jbachelor

Es el subjuntivo del inglés... uno de los pocos casos

Si yo FUERA un chico...
no es Si yo soy un chico, es FUERA

Igual en ingles... es, If I WERE a boy, y no If I was a boy


----------



## Adge

cheesycarrion said:


> Just another note: Though a lot of people won't notice when "was" is used instead of "were" as a subjunctive, the expression "If I were you" said as "If I was you" will sound bad to anybody.


I think you might need to redefine anybody.  It would sound bad to anyone who is well-versed in grammar (as I will assume most of us here are), but I honestly would be surprised to hear someone say "if I were you" anymore.  _Was_ has become so prevalent that I honestly am taken back when I hear someone use "were," even in something so formulaic.  
I have to admit that I'm guilty of the "if I was you" subjunctive monstrosity myself.


----------



## VivaReggaeton88

Adge said:


> I think you might need to redefine anybody.  It would sound bad to anyone who is well-versed in grammar (as I will assume most of us here are), but I honestly would be surprised to hear someone say "if I were you" anymore.  _Was_ has become so prevalent that I honestly am taken back when I hear someone use "were," even in something so formulaic.
> I have to admit that I'm guilty of the "if I was you" subjunctive monstrosity myself.



Agreed


----------



## jackaustralia

I have to agree with Adge I hear 'If I was you' all the time - more frequently than the alternative.


----------



## bishbosh

I agree with Lis48 that 'If I were' has not been dropped from British English at all. If I had said in school I would never have gotten away with it (and I'm not that long form it). 
This thread really interested me because I had a long and heated discussion about it with an English graduate the other day who insisted that 'If I were ...' is an antiquated or 'high english' form, with which I completely disagreed. However she's Irish and I'm from the south-west, so I think it probably also depends on regional variation. 
Also, I don't think it's fair to say that the 'younger generation' are the main perpetrators of this either, I'm nineteen and in my experience it is more to do with education and base accent than age.


----------



## QueAproveche

Only *were* is technically correct - but *was* is used very commonly even in "if I was you". The change from "were" to "was" is mostly a below 45 thing in America. The "boomer generation" still uses *were* almost exclusively in that type of sentence. But Gen-Xers and younger have almost eliminated the *were* in these situations.

And I see the subjunctive in English in much of England's written work. Even amongst BBC commentators. 

QueAproveche


----------



## Adge

QueAproveche said:


> Only *were* is technically correct


Exactly. I wasn't trying to suggest anything to the contrary; I just wanted to point out that "was" is becoming more common in speech, at least in some regions. Of course, since "were" is correct it should be used in writing- I've never seen a rule book that allowed for "was"...at least not yet. Who knows what will happen when us Gen-Xers start publishing the manuals.


----------



## QueAproveche

Adge said:


> Exactly. I wasn't trying to suggest anything to the contrary; I just wanted to point out that "was" is becoming more common in speech, at least in some regions. Of course, since "were" is correct it should be used in writing- I've never seen a rule book that allowed for "was"...at least not yet. Who knows what will happen when us Gen-Xers start publishing the manuals.


 LOL! I suppose you're right. One day we boomers will just have to let go of the reins. Tell me though which of these two sounds more right to your X-er ears.

The teacher insists that she take more time on the project.
The teacher insists that she take*s* more time on the project.

The first one is the correct one. The second one sounds really strange to my ears but I bet it doesn't to yours, Adge.

QueAproveche


----------



## cheesycarrion

Adge said:


> I think you might need to redefine anybody.  It would sound bad to anyone who is well-versed in grammar (as I will assume most of us here are), but I honestly would be surprised to hear someone say "if I were you" anymore.  _Was_ has become so prevalent that I honestly am taken back when I hear someone use "were," even in something so formulaic.
> I have to admit that I'm guilty of the "if I was you" subjunctive monstrosity myself.


That's interesting. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I've hardly ever heard anybody say "was" in the specific phrase "If I were you." It would just sound bad to me. In many other cases though, people will say "was" instead of "were."


----------



## xqby

QueAproveche said:


> The teacher insists that she take more time on the project.
> The teacher insists that she take*s* more time on the project.
> 
> The first one is the correct one. The second one sounds really strange to my ears but I bet it doesn't to yours, Adge.



Well, no, they're both correct. They mean different things though. Compare:

"She doesn't spend enough time on her work."
"Indeed, I must insist that she take more care."

"She spends less time than me on her work."
"No, I insist that she takes more time than you."


  "If I was a boy" is theoretically possible, but sort of weird. You could use it if, for some reason, you had been unsure of your gender in the past.


----------



## Adge

cheesycarrion said:


> That's interesting. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I've hardly ever heard anybody say "was" in the specific phrase "If I were you." It would just sound bad to me. In many other cases though, people will say "was" instead of "were."


 
Anything I say or hear could very well be regional- after all, there's no better place than the rural South to realize that the textbook standard might as well be a foreign language.


----------



## SevenDays

xqby said:


> Well, no, they're both correct. They mean different things though. Compare:
> 
> "She doesn't spend enough time on her work."
> "Indeed, I must insist that she take more care."
> 
> "She spends less time than me on her work."
> "No, I insist that she takes more time than you."
> 
> 
> "If I was a boy" is theoretically possible, but sort of weird. You could use it if, for some reason, you had been unsure of your gender in the past.


 
Hello
Interesting discussion
 
I suppose in informal speech anything is allowed.
 
I just want to point out a couple of things, considering that this is a grammar forum too.
With verbs such as insist (or demand, recommend), the verb in a subordinate clause starting with “that” must be in the subjunctive.
 
“Indeed, I must insist that she take more care”
“No, I insist that she take more time than you”
 
You are or aren’t a boy.  If you aren’t, then it’s contrary to fact and you should say “If I were a boy.”  Same thing in the past; either you were or weren’t a boy.  To speculate about a state of being that was unreal in the past, use the conditional.  
 
“If I had been a boy” (Not If I was a boy)
 
Also, “she spends less time than me on her work.”  I would argue it should be, 
“She spends less time than I spend on her work.”  As in, ‘She spends less than I (spend) on her work.
 
But I wouldn’t argue with informal speech.
Cheers


----------



## aztlaniano

SevenDays said:


> With verbs such as insist (or demand, recommend), the verb in a subordinate clause starting with “that” must be in the subjunctive.
> 
> “Indeed, I must insist that she take more care”
> “No, I insist that she take more time than you”
> 
> You are or aren’t a boy. If you aren’t, then it’s contrary to fact and you should say “If I were a boy.” Same thing in the past; either you were or weren’t a boy. To speculate about a state of being that was unreal in the past, use the conditional.
> 
> “If I had been a boy” (Not If I was a boy)
> 
> Also, “she spends less time than me on her work.” I would argue it should be,
> “She spends less time than I spend on her work.” As in, ‘She spends less than I (spend) on her work.


I agree with all of the above, I'd just like to clarify one thing: 
Con "If I had been a boy" (o "Had I been a boy", que es lo mismo), ya no se trata de "si yo fuera un chico" sino de "si yo hubiera sido un chico". 
Eg.: "Had I been a boy, my father would have paid more attention to me."
_Si hubiera sido un chico mi padre me habría prestado más atención._
saludos


----------



## xqby

SevenDays said:


> With verbs such as insist (or demand, recommend), the verb in a subordinate clause starting with “that” must be in the subjunctive.
> ...
> But I wouldn’t argue with informal speech.


 
I was not talking about informal speech; your first statement is partially untrue. 
It depends on which meaning of "insist" we're talking about. Compare:

4. to assert or maintain firmly: _He insists that he saw the ghosts. _
5. to demand or persist in demanding: _I insist that you see this thing through. _
-dictionary.com

When you do not use the subjunctive, it is clear that the first meaning is intended.

"I insist that he sits." = he is sitting, I do not agree with a contrary statement
"I insist that he sit." = he I not sitting, I want him to sit


----------



## FromPA

The use of the subjunctive in the subordinate "that" clause following a verb of influence (i.e., the speaker is trying to influence the behavior of someone else) is exactly the same as in Spanish.   In the examples cited using the verb "to insist," when the insistence is intended to influence the behavior of the person being addressed (I insist that you do something), the subjunctive is needed; otherwise, the indicative is used.


----------



## SevenDays

xqby said:


> I was not talking about informal speech; your first statement is partially untrue.
> It depends on which meaning of "insist" we're talking about. Compare:
> 
> 4. to assert or maintain firmly: _He insists that he saw the ghosts. _
> 5. to demand or persist in demanding: _I insist that you see this thing through. _
> -dictionary.com
> 
> When you do not use the subjunctive, it is clear that the first meaning is intended.
> 
> "I insist that he sits." = he is sitting, I do not agree with a contrary statement
> "I insist that he sit." = he I not sitting, I want him to sit


 
Ooops
Sometimes you start with an idea in mind but lose track of it.  I should have been more specific and make the distinction between the subjunctive and indicative use.  FromPa made that point very clear in his post.  
 
I insist that he sit.  (Command)
I insist that he sits. (Indicative. Others argue that he stands)
 
Cheers


----------



## FromPA

SevenDays said:


> Ooops
> Sometimes you start with an idea in mind but lose track of it. I should have been more specific and make the distinction between the subjunctive and indicative use. FromPa made that point very clear in his post.
> 
> I insist that he sit. (Command)
> I insist that he sits. (Indicative. Others argue that he stands)
> 
> Cheers


 
The second sentence should also be subjunctive because you're still trying to influence an outcome.  
If you say, "I insist that he's a fool", there's no outcome that you're trying to influence, you're just stating an opinion.  In that case you would use indicative.


----------



## SevenDays

QueAproveche said:


> Yes, of course. Thanks for the clarification. I was referring to the subordinating clauses with verbs of influence. Subjunctive is always required in the subordinate clause with those from what I was taught in school and university.
> 
> But only if _insist_ means _demand_ _that someone do something_. _Insist_ can also mean _make a strong declaration_ in which case indicative is proper. Wouldn't you agree?
> 
> QueAproveche


 
Yes, I agree. 
I replied to xqby saying that I should have been more precise in my original post.  You, and FromPa, have clarified this point.
Cheers


----------



## SevenDays

FromPA said:


> The second sentence should also be subjunctive because you're still trying to influence an outcome.
> If you say, "I insist that he's a fool", there's no outcome that you're trying to influence, you're just stating an opinion. In that case you would use indicative.


 
Without context, yes, I can see your point.
Context makes all the difference.
 
“You know, when he comes, he sits all alone.”
“Well, you are wrong.  When he comes, he stands.”
“No, he sits.”
“You couldn’t be more wrong. He stands.”
“I insist that he sits.”
“Well, I insist that he stands” (Punches him in the nose). Good day to you, sir!”
 
I’m not a grammarian.  If I’m still wrong, then I see it as a chance to learn from my mistake.
Cheers


----------



## FromPA

SevenDays said:


> Without context, yes, I can see your point.
> Context makes all the difference.
> 
> “You know, when he comes, he sits all alone.”
> “Well, you are wrong. When he comes, he stands.”
> “No, he sits.”
> “You couldn’t be more wrong. He stands.”
> “I insist that he sits.”
> “Well, I insist that he stands” (Punches him in the nose). Good day to you, sir!”
> 
> I’m not a grammarian. If I’m still wrong, then I see it as a chance to learn from my mistake.
> Cheers


 
In that context, I agree that the indicative is correct.


----------



## Adge

Taking this back to the _was/were_ discussion, I got a call from the office of my apartment today: "I was calling to see was you renewing your lease..."
For some reason _was_ doesn't bother me in "if I was you" but it seriously bothered me in that context.  I'm wondering what's so different about it...


----------



## QueAproveche

Adge said:


> Taking this back to the _was/were_ discussion, I got a call from the office of my apartment today: "I was calling to see was you renewing your lease..."
> For some reason _was_ doesn't bother me in "if I was you" but it seriously bothered me in that context.  I'm wondering what's so different about it...


_You was_ - and - _was you_ are both incorrect English anywhere. That one's simple. The original issue was between "I were" and "I was".

QueAproveche


----------



## Adge

QueAproveche said:


> _You was_ - and - _was you_ are both incorrect English anywhere. That one's simple. The original issue was between "I were" and "I was".
> 
> QueAproveche


 
Haha, duh.  Glad I speak English.   I have no idea why that didn't cross my mind.


----------



## Forero

El uso de _I was_ o _I were_ depende de qué queremos decir:
_
If I were a boy, ...._ = _Were I a boy, ...._ = _If it were true that I am a boy, ...._ = _Si yo fuera niño, ...._
_If I was a boy, ...._ = _If it is true that I was a boy, ...._ = _Si yo era niño, ...._

Igualmente el uso de _he is_ o _he be_ después de _insist_ depende de lo que  queremos decir:

_I insist that he is sitting._ = _I insist on the fact that he is sitting._ = _Insisto que está sentado._
_I insist that he be seated._ = _I insist on having him sit down._ = _Insisto en que se siente.

_


----------

