# Do ut des vs Quid pro quo



## trisquela

Topic:  Do ut des vs Quid pro quo
Cagey moderator. 


Hi

Is the same meaning for the two phrases?

(English is not my native language, so Ì'm sorry if the question is not good wroten)


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## Anne345

The phrase *quid pro quo*, or *quiproquo* (from medieval Latin: literally qui instead of quo) is common in languages such as Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and French, where it means a misunderstanding.
In those languages, the phrase corresponding to the usage of quid pro quo in English is do ut des (Latin for "I give, so that you may give").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quid_pro_quo


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## J.F. de TROYES

I'll just add that *quid pro quo* exactly means " something in return to something ". see also here in the Spanish wikipedia.


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## trisquela

Thanks to all


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## defesad

I understand that in Romanic languages "quid pro quo" means "to mistake one thing for another" (as discussed above).

I would like to know the English term/phrase that has this meaning ("to take one thing for another"). Also, is there any Latin term/phrase (that is used in English) for it?

Thank you.


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## Cagey

defesad said:


> I understand that in Romanic languages "quid pro quo" means "to mistake one thing for another" (as discussed above).


quid pro quo, doesn't mean to mistake one thing for another. It means to do something for someone in exchange for something they do for you. 

This is the Latin forum.  If you have a question about an English idiom, you should post it in the English forum.  

As for the Latin for "to take one thing for another",  please explain in different words, what you have in mind.  Without further context, the meaning is ambiguous.


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## defesad

Have you read the 2nd post above?
including the wikipedia page

Quid pro quo is used to mean "something in exchange for another thing" IN ENGLISH.
In ROMANIC languages it is used to mean "to (mis)take one thing for another". This other meaning, according to wikipedia, is the ORIGINAL LATIN meaning (emphasis added).


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## Cagey

This is the Latin forum.  As the Wiki article says, 

_*Quid pro quo*_ ("something for something" in Latin)[1] means an exchange of goods or services, where one transfer is contingent upon the other.​
If you want to discuss its meaning and use in another language, you should discuss that in the forum for that language.


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## defesad

Cagey said:


> This is the Latin forum.  As the Wiki article says,
> 
> _*Quid pro quo*_ ("something for something" in Latin)[1] means an exchange of goods or services, where one transfer is contingent upon the other.​
> If you want to discuss its meaning and use in another language, you should discuss that in the forum for that language.



Let's discuss its LATIN meaning then.
Pls look for and read the ORIGINAL LATIN meaning in wikipedia. It is in the "Other Meanings" section (before "See Also").

It transpires that "an exchange of goods or services, where one transfer is contingent upon the other" is NOT the Latin meaning of the phrase.

By the way, the original latin phrase is "Qui pro quo".


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## Scholiast

salvete amici!


Anne345 said:


> The phrase *quid pro quo*, or *quiproquo* (from medieval Latin: literally qui instead of quo) is common in languages such as Italian, Portuguese, Spanish and French, where it means a misunderstanding.





Cagey said:


> _*Quid pro quo*_ ("something for something" in Latin)[1] means an exchange of goods or services, where one transfer is contingent upon the other.





defesad said:


> By the way, the original latin phrase is "Qui pro quo".



I suspect a confusion here - no evidence (yet) to support my hunch, but it may be worth airing in case foreasters more knowledgable than I can shed further light.

Cagey is quite right that in English, _quid pro quo _means "something [gift or favour] in return for something else". But if, especially in the form _quiproquo_, it is, as Anne345 says, a common idiom in Romance legacy tongues for a "misunderstanding" or "error", it could have arisen from (late?) classical or mediaeval paedagogy, with reference originally to mistaken use of the nominative _qui_ for _quo_ ablative. I'm working through the illustrious Quintilian now to see if there are any clues there.

Σ


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## defesad

As this is the Latin forum, I would like now to know its Latin meaning if the phrase is used in Latin. Or, is this a Latin phrase that was not used in Latin?


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## Scholiast

salvete de novo!



defesad said:


> As this is the Latin forum, I would like now to know its Latin meaning if the phrase is used in Latin. Or, is this a Latin phrase that was not used in Latin?



Is this question about _quid pro quo_ or about _quiproquo_? Neither appear to be attested in extant classical literature, but that does not mean they could not have been coined, used and accessibly understood, especially in late, legal or colloquial Latin.

_quid_ as an indefinite substantive, i.e. "something", is attested in the classical language (see L&S s.v. _quis_ (2)).

Σ


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## defesad

@ Scholiast

Thank you.

To my understanding, "quid pro quo" is a derivation of "quiproquo". The former had another meaning in English: "blunder made by using or putting one thing for another" (Concise Oxford Dictionary, 4th edition, 1950). This is cited in the Wikipedia article. Apparently, both the phrase and its meaning have evolved (at least in English). Also, I would highlight that post #3 cites a Spanish Wiki page (_El error de pensar que "Quid pro quo" es "Do ut des_" section) that seems to contradict the poster's statement.

I would like to know the meaning of the phrase ("quid pro quo", derived from "quiproquo") used in Classical Latin. But I guess the phrase was not used or did not exist then (in Classical Latin). There are Latin phrases and terms that are used only in English. In this regard, allow me to make a comparison with English: the word "WC" (Water Closet) is commonly used in East Asia with the meaning "a restroom"; however, this (English) word is not used in English speaking countries (such as UK, US).

Finally, if you could help me to "complete the square" in the attached/below drawing, what is X?

Thank you.


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## Scholiast

salve tu quoque, defasad

We risk veering off topic, and therefore meeting moderatorial ire.

The big _OED_ also shows _quid pro quo_ as meaning an "error", with references from the 14th century onwards. But as Cagey says, this is an issue that might better be taken to the English Forum.

For the moment: the assumption that _quid pro quo_ is "derived from" _qui pro quo_, whether hyphenated or not, is premature. It would be interesting indeed to know more exactly whence it originates.

And "WC", may I add, is perfectly acceptable polite northern English for "toilet".

Σ


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## defesad

Salve, Scholiast

Thank you for the clarification. I am sorry for the incorrectness.

I would still like to know the meaning of "Quid Pro Quo" (in (Classical) Latin, Not in English).
What Latin reference/authority (not the English or any other non Latin language dictionary/reference) can we use to establish its meaning (in Latin)?


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## Scholiast

Scholiasta defasad et ceteri, SPD


defesad said:


> I would still like to know the meaning of "Quid Pro Quo" (in (Classical) Latin, Not in English).
> What Latin reference/authority (not the English or any other non Latin language dictionary/reference) can we use to establish its meaning (in Latin)?


Since (as stated in #12) so far as I am aware the phrase is not actually used in classical authors, I find this question somewhat obtuse. This is my best shot:
_quid_ (L&S s.v. _quis_ 2) give (_inter alia_) "something";
_pro_ = "in proportion to..."/"in exchange for..."/"on behalf of..." and it invariably governs the ablative case, hence...
_quo_ [ablative of _quid_] then means "something [else]".
The precise reference and meaning of the whole phrase would, however, depend on the context in which it is used.
I'm sorry if that is not terribly helpful, but honestly, I am not quite sure what defasad is asking for.
Σ


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## defesad

My earlier question was in response to the question at #12 ("Is this question about quid pro quo or about quiproquo?").

It appeared that:
"_Quid Pro Quo_" does not have any meaning in Latin (other than its literal meaning: "Something for something"/"What for what").
"To do something for someone in exchange for something they do for you" etc (#6, #8, #16) is the meaning/interpretation of the phrase when used in English, Not in Latin.
In the absence of its meaning in Latin, it would be impossible to discuss the meaning of the phrase Without discussing the meaning in other languages (_condicio sine qua non_ ?). Otherwise, if this Latin forum does not allow such discussion (of the meaning of the phrase in other languages), then this thread is ineligible (for this Latin forum) *ab initio*.

Am I wrong?


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## Scholiast

salvete iterum!



defesad said:


> In the absence of its meaning in Latin...



The entire thread has been devoted to precisely this question. It means "something in return for (or in proportion to) something [else]".



defesad said:


> Otherwise, if this Latin forum does not allow such discussion (of the meaning of the phrase in other languages), then this thread is ineligible (for this Latin forum) *ab initio*.



I am now genuinely mystified. This Latin Forum allows and facilitates discussion of all things Latin. What is it then that defasad is so keen to know, and whence his frustration with the answers that we have offered?

Σ


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