# Pronunciation of the letter "Ы"



## lluvioso1

Hi, I am wondering the correct pronunciation of "Ы". I must confess; initially, as a Turkish, I thought it as the letter "*ı" *in  Turkish alphabet, but just realized that this is not true for all of  the situations. Sometimes it is pronounced as in the word *Bill or bit(from american english)*, sometimes just like the Turkish letter "*ı" *and lastly sometimes it is pronounced like *"i" *as in the american pronunciation of the verb *"dig"*.

_Examples:

-_*мы*_--->"_*Ы*_" is pronounced like _*"i"*_ as in the _*"dig"*_, likewise in _*"му́зыка" or "дым"    ,so it is equal to и*_
but;

-_*ды́ня*_--->"*Ы*" is pronounced like *"ı"* as in Turkish(exactly the same as schwa in english), but a long a little bit because of the accent

also;

-_*был*_--->"*Ы*" is pronounced like "i" in the American word *"Bill"


*_Well, there is a lot which makes confusion on my mind here. Is there a guidance that tells when to use which one?

Thanks.


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## ahvalj

Russians normally don't perceive these differences: the Russian vowels vary depending on the surrounding sounds. I have never seen a detailed explanation of this variation in any foreign manual of Russian as well. Probably, the best way would be to settle on a certain kind of _ы_ and then modify it as your Russian skills progress.


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## Maroseika

lluvioso1 said:


> Well, there is a lot which makes confusion on my mind here. Is there a guidance that tells when to use which one?


Although in general pronunciation of unstressed Russian vowels depends on their position and distance from the stressed syllable, vowel ы depends on this in the minor degree. To pronounce it properly, try to provide hardness of the preceeding consonant, and ы will come out almost automatically.


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## ahvalj

Maroseika said:


> To pronounce it properly, try to provide hardness of the preceeding consonant, and ы will come out almost automatically.


I would say this is valid only if English is taken as a starting point: any other language I am familiar with has plain _i_ after non-palatalized consonants.


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## Maroseika

ahvalj said:


> I would say this is valid only if English is taken as a starting point: any other language I am familiar with has plain _i_ after non-palatalized consonants.



I think even then it will be more like ы, than any efforts to pronounce it leaving the consonant hard. Of course and as usual, best of all is to listen how the natives pronounce this sound.


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## Konstantinos

So far, I have noticed two different pronunciations of the letter "ы". The one just a simple i, like in ты and the other one a fast combination of "ui", like in вы.

General talking, there is not close English equivalent. Similar to i in English sin, vigor, but with the tongue drawn farther back and the lips spread.


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## Maroseika

Konstantinos said:


> So far, I have noticed two different pronunciations of the letter "ы". The one just a simple i, like in ты and the other one a fast combination of "ui", like in вы.



I'm afraid this observation is not correct. Sound ы is quite the same in ты and вы.


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## Drink

I would say that "ы" is somewhere in between the "i" in English "dig" or "Bill" and the Turkish dotless "ı".



Konstantinos said:


> So far, I have noticed two different pronunciations of the letter "ы". The one just a simple i, like in ты and the other one a fast combination of "ui", like in вы.



The "ы" in "ты" and "вы" is exactly the same. The differences you are hearing are probably because different people sometimes pronounce the sound slightly differently.


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## Konstantinos

Really, I am wondering why I am so incorrect... Now, I just listened google translate pronunciation of ты as ti, and вы as vui...


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## Maroseika

Konstantinos said:


> Now, I just listened google translate pronunciation of ты as ti, and вы as vui...



This is not a reliable source, I also checked it and they just pronounce it with different intonation, which may look like different sounds.
Better to use audio sources with live voices of natives, like forvo and similar.


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## Drink

Konstantinos said:


> Really, I am wondering why I am so incorrect... Now, I just listened google translate pronunciation of ты as ti, and вы as vui...



I just listened to Google translate and you are right that it pronounces them differently. My advice is don't listen to Google translate.


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## Konstantinos

But why the difference of "ты" and "вы" as I listen it in google translate, is 100% similar with all my listening audio sources? Really, everywhere I listen ti and vui...

To help you more, I listen мы and вы with the same pronunciation, that is, mui and vui, but the ты with a different one: ti. If you want I can find more sources to show you, when I will have time, not only google translate.

Anyway, listen yandex translate: http://translate.yandex.ru/


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## Drink

Konstantinos said:


> But why the difference of "ты" and "вы" as I listen it in google translate, is 100% similar with all my listening audio sources? Really, everywhere I listen ti and vui...
> 
> To help you more, I listen мы and вы with the same pronunciation, that is, mui and vui, but the ты with a different one: ti. If you want I can find more sources to show you, when I will have time, not only google translate.
> 
> Anyway, listen yandex translate: http://translate.yandex.ru/



Because computer-generate speech is never going to sound exactly right. Always listen to human recordings of native speakers.


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## Konstantinos

Human sources of native speakers: http://www.goethe-verlag.com/book2/EM/EMRU/EMRU006.HTM

Ты (ti) учишь испанский. 
Мы (mui) учим французский.
Вы (vui) учите итальянский.


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## Drink

Konstantinos said:


> Human sources of native speakers: http://www.goethe-verlag.com/book2/EM/EMRU/EMRU006.HTM
> 
> Ты (ti) учишь испанский.
> Мы (mui) учим французский.
> Вы (vui) учите итальянский.



I don't hear much of a difference on that site. You should listen to it carefully a few more times. (And also keep in mind that they are using way too much intonation.)


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## ahvalj

I agree with Konstantinos: indeed, _ы_ after labials sounds with an _u_-like initial element, and this has been noticed in the literature many times. Moreover, this seems to be ancient. Several unrelated languages substituted _ы_ for _ui_ in the ancient borrowings, especially after _m, b, v, _and_ p_ — e. g. Lithuanian _muitas, muilas, buitas_ for _мыто, мыло, быт_. The original Cyrillic ligature for this sound, _ъi_, suggests that for the Balkanic creators of the Cyrillic alphabet _ы_ was a diphthong-like sound with an _i_-like final element.

As I had written in my first post, Russians normally don't perceive these nuances.


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## Erick404

Konstantinos said:


> So far, I have noticed two different pronunciations of the letter "ы". The one just a simple i, like in ты and the other one a fast combination of "ui", like in вы.
> 
> General talking, there is not close English equivalent. Similar to i in English sin, vigor, but with the tongue drawn farther back and the lips spread.



Same here. According to Wikipedia:
"It represents the phoneme /i/ after non-palatalised (hard) consonants in the Belarusian and Russian alphabets. Because of phonological processes, the actual realization of /i/ after alveolar consonants (〈д〉, 〈з〉, 〈л〉, 〈н〉, 〈р〉, 〈с〉, 〈т〉, or 〈ц〉) is retracted to a close central unrounded vowel [ɨ], or [ʷi] after the labials 〈б〉, 〈в〉, 〈м〉, 〈п〉."

This makes sense to me. I hear this short w-like sound after labial consonants followed by ы. Forvo pronunciations of вы confirm this to me. I think the first one is the only that doesn't have this w sound. Maroseika, please listen to the fifth one (from Denghu) and tell us if you don't hear a very clear w.


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## ahvalj

Erick404 said:


> Same here. According to Wikipedia:
> "It represents the phoneme /i/ after non-palatalised (hard) consonants in the Belarusian and Russian alphabets. Because of phonological processes, the actual realization of /i/ after alveolar consonants (〈д〉, 〈з〉, 〈л〉, 〈н〉, 〈р〉, 〈с〉, 〈т〉, or 〈ц〉) is retracted to a close central unrounded vowel[ɨ], or [ʷi] after the labials 〈б〉, 〈в〉, 〈м〉, 〈п〉."


A sidenote. The actualistic interpretation presented in this quote (and frequently found in the literature) is wrong in that it implies that there is an ordinary _i_ vowel after non-palatalized consonants, which for some inexplicable reasons retracts to the middle row or develops an initial labial element. In reality the development went to an opposite direction: there was an independent sound _ы_ (from the Proto-Slavic *_ū_), which in the course of the last 1000 years became an allophone of _i_ after hard consonants in Russian, Belarusian, Polish and Sorbian: thus, its pronunciational peculiarities are caused by its distinct origin.


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## Linguoman

Konstantinos said:


> Human sources of native speakers: http://www.goethe-verlag.com/book2/EM/EMRU/EMRU006.HTM
> 
> Ты (ti) учишь испанский.
> Мы (mui) учим французский.
> Вы (vui) учите итальянский.



Hi Konstantinos,

as you see, the differences you are trying to describe, are not noticeable by >90% native speakers. We do perceive them as exactly the same sound. That is quite understandable: native speakers tend not to notice slight differences in _allophones_ (positional variations), while non-natives may hear them well.

I have to admit, that your observation surprized me first, but after reading the rest of the discussion I believe it may be true. The good news for you is that the variations you noticed are fully predictable from neighboring sounds.


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## rusita preciosa

Please also check the threads below.
Difference between й and ы
pronouncing "ы (еры)" and "рь"
Pronunciation: change of И to Ы
What is this letter called: ы
газета, -ы
Слово на букву Ы !
Твердые гласные (а, о, у, ы, э)?
Ы pronunciation


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## Maroseika

Erick404 said:


> Forvo pronunciations of вы confirm this to me. I think the first one is the only that doesn't have this w sound. Maroseika, please listen to the fifth one (from Denghu) and tell us if you don't hear a very clear w.



Yes, his "в" sounds a bit strange. Maybe this is due to his bilinguality (he also pronounced Latvian words for the Forvo). At least in all other variants of вы I cannot discern any w or ui.


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## Ben Jamin

ahvalj said:


> I would say this is valid only if English is taken as a starting point: any other language I am familiar with has plain _i_ after non-palatalized consonants.


And only with the short "i".


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## Ben Jamin

ahvalj said:


> I would say this is valid only if English is taken as a starting point: any other language I am familiar with has plain _i_ after non-palatalized consonants.


So you are not familiar with Polish which has always an "i" after palatal and an "y" (*ы) *after non palatal.


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## Sobakus

ahvalj said:


> I would say this is valid only if English is taken as a starting point: any other language I am familiar with has plain _i_ after non-palatalized consonants.



Any language that has a distinction between soft and hard consonants will have some sort of a mid or even back close vowel in the hard (velarised) environment, certainly not a plain close front _. Even in the absence of such a distinction (and hence of phonemically palatalised or velarised consonants) a close vowel will always palatalise the preceding consonant to some extent. The issue here is that you can keep the consonant non-palatalised while still producing a vowel too fronted to be an *ы* to the Russian ear. You need to add some velarisation to the mix, and this varies from sound to sound, being the strongest with the labials (which sounds like a w-glide to non-Russians)._


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## Linguoman

Sobakus said:


> Any language that has a distinction between soft and hard consonants will have some sort of a mid or even back close vowel in the hard (velarised) environment, certainly not a plain close front _._


_

As far as I know, it does not work in Czech. Czech has at lease three pairs of soft and hard consonants: t - ť, d - ď, n - ň. However, the syllables ti - ty, di - dy and ni - ny are only distinguished by their consonants (soft before "i" and hard before "y"). The letters "i" and "y" themselves represent the same vowel sound  as "ы" does not exist in Czech. And the difference between "i" and "y" after any other consonants is purely orthographical based on the etymology and some spelling rules.

Maybe some of Czech speakers could confirm or correct this._


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## Slavicist

Linguoman said:


> As far as I know, it does not work in Czech. Czech has at lease three pairs of soft and hard consonants: t - ť, d - ď, n - ň. However, the syllables ti - ty, di - dy and ni - ny are only distinguished by their consonants (soft before "i" and hard before "y"). The letters "i" and "y" themselves represent the same vowel sound _ as "ы" does not exist in Czech. And the difference between "i" and "y" after any other consonants is purely orthographical based on the etymology and some spelling rules.
> 
> Maybe some of Czech speakers could confirm or correct this._


_

Slovak has the same thing (though I'm not a native speaker.)_


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## vianie

Linguoman said:


> The letters "i" and "y" themselves represent the same vowel sound _ as "ы" does not exist in Czech. And the difference between "i" and "y" after any other consonants is purely orthographical based on the etymology and some spelling rules._


_
In the Standard Czech based on the Bohemian variant and in terms of Slavic phonetics, the short i and y stand for ɪ. The long í and ý stand for i: which is sometimes substituted by ɛj in Common Czech. See Wikipedia for examples.



			the syllables ti - ty, di - dy and ni - ny are only distinguished by their consonants (soft before "i" and hard before "y").
		
Click to expand...

In regular instances, Slovak words have a non-palatal d, t, n, or l  even if followed by i or í.


Slavicist said:



			Slovak has the same thing (though I'm not a native speaker.)
		
Click to expand...

According to Wikipedia Slovak should has it alone. In the reality it is a bit more uncertain and the i/y sounds are being pronounced unconformly depending on the societal or individual preferences and regardless to the standard spelling of them._


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## Slavicist

vianie said:


> In the Standard Czech based on the Bohemian variant and in terms of Slavic phonetics, the short _i_ and _y_ stand for _ɪ_. The long _í_ and _ý_ stand for _i:_ which is sometimes substituted by _ɛj_ in Common Czech. See Wikipedia for examples.
> 
> In regular instances, Slovak words have a non-palatal _d, t, n, _or_ l_  even if followed by _i_ or _í_.
> 
> According to Wikipedia Slovak should has it alone. In the reality it is a bit more uncertain and the i/y sounds are being pronounced unconformly depending on the societal or individual preferences and regardless to the standard spelling of them.



I read somewhere that non-palatal d, t, and n (and l?) are characteristic of Bratislava speech. Is that true?

Is the pronunciation of "i" and "y" purely based on social/individual preferences, or is there also a regional factor?


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## vianie

Slavicist said:


> I read somewhere that non-palatal d, t, and n (and l?) are characteristic of Bratislava speech. Is that true?
> 
> Is the pronunciation of "i" and "y" purely based on social/individual preferences, or is there also a regional factor?


Considering that this is a Russian forum, I can not answer you on these specific questions here. But you can start a new thread in the Other Slavic Languages Forum if you will.


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