# Welsh: Combining "ti" and "chi" imperatives in one sentence



## Curt Jugg

In Christine Jones's "Welsh Grammar You Really Need to Know" (2013) on page 207 (dealing with imperatives) there appears the sentence "Gwna fel y mynnoch". This seems to me to be combining the "ti" form of the verb with the "chi" form, and I'm wondering if this is usual.


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## Welsh_Sion

The equivalent sentence appears in her Teach Yourself Welsh Grammar p. 170. I am loath to admit any wrongdoing on the part of my MA Celtic Studies supervisor  ... ahem (!) ... but unless @Tegs can tell us differently, I think that you have again hit upon a mistake/typo.

We should therefore read, _Gwnewch fel y mynnoch_, or _Gwna fel y mynni_. Interestingly, she omits the exclamation mark in the Welsh and English here - maybe as she thinks it's not a 'true' imperative (although the structure definitely is: _-a/-wch_) and it's more an entreaty for someone to enjoy themselves. A more literal translation - _Do as you insist_ _(on doing)_, may seem to confirm this. Further, there may be confusion here in that the _-och_ ending is obviously a* subjunctive*: _Do as you may insist (on doing)_ perhaps, but _Gwna fel y mynni_ is Imperative + Present indicative.

On reflection, although I might well use both structures: _Gwna fel y mynni_ and _Gwnewch fel y mynnoch_, I feel I'd more commonly say/use, _Gwna beth lici/hoffi di (ei wneud)_ (= Do what you like (doing)) and _Gwnewch beth liciwch/hoffwch chi (ei wneud)_ (= ibid.). Others, of course, may decry this as a mere representation of English syntax. My apologies if it is.


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## Tegs

Welsh_Sion said:


> I'd more comonly say/use, _Gwna beth lici/hoffi di (ei wneud)_ (= Do what you like (doing)) and _Gwnewch beth liciwch/hoffwch chi (ei wneud)_ (= ibid.)


I agree. 



Welsh_Sion said:


> I think that you have again hit upon a mistake/typo


I agree with this too. 


Curt Jugg said:


> This seems to me to be combining the "ti" form of the verb with the "chi" form, and I'm wondering if this is usual.


That’s what it looks like to me too, and it’s not usual at all, in my experience.


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## Curt Jugg

Welsh_Sion said:


> The equivalent sentence appears in her Teach Yourself Welsh Grammar p. 170. I am loath to admit any wrongdoing on the part of my MA Celtic Studies supervisor  ... ahem (!) ... but unless @Tegs can tell us differently, I think that you have again hit upon a mistake/typo.
> 
> We should therefore read, _Gwnewch fel y mynnoch_, or _Gwna fel y mynni_. Interestingly, she omits the exclamation mark in the Welsh and English here - maybe as she thinks it's not a 'true' imperative (although the structure definitely is: _-a/-wch_) and it's more an entreaty for someone to enjoy themselves. A more literal translation - _Do as you insist_ _(on doing)_, may seem to confirm this. Further, there may be confusion here in that the _-och_ ending is obviously a* subjunctive*: _Do as you may insist (on doing)_ perhaps, but _Gwna fel y mynni_ is Imperative + Present indicative.
> 
> On reflection, although I might well use both structures: _Gwna fel y mynni_ and _Gwnewch fel y mynnoch_, I feel I'd more commonly say/use, _Gwna beth lici/hoffi di (ei wneud)_ (= Do what you like (doing)) and _Gwnewch beth liciwch/hoffwch chi (ei wneud)_ (= ibid.). Others, of course, may decry this as a mere representation of English syntax. My apologies if it is.


Many thanks, Welsh_Sion,  for that comprehensive reply. Typos are a real pain for us "teach yourself" language learners as they cause so much head scratching!


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## Curt Jugg

Tegs said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> I agree with this too.
> 
> That’s what it looks like to me too, and it’s not usual at all, in my experience.


Many thanks, Tegs, for that confirmation.


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## Tegs

Welsh_Sion said:


> there may be confusion here in that the _-och_ ending is obviously a* subjunctive*: _Do as you may insist (on doing)_ perhaps, but _Gwna fel y mynni_ is Imperative + Present indicative.


To add to this, to use a present subjunctive in the "ti" form it would be "Gwna fe y mynnych di", but this is something absolutely nobody uses today. So, the likelihood of it being a typo for "mynnych di" is very slim - that's not something you would teach learners - it's just a plain old mistake, putting the chi present subjunctive form in instead of the ti form present indicative. 

You only really hear ti and chi forms combined in one sentence when you're talking to learners who have yet to get the hang of ti/chi.


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## Curt Jugg

Tegs said:


> To add to this, to use a present subjunctive in the "ti" form it would be "Gwna fe y mynnych di", but this is something absolutely nobody uses today. So, the likelihood of it being a typo for "mynnych di" is very slim - that's not something you would teach learners - it's just a plain old mistake, putting the chi present subjunctive form in instead of the ti form present indicative.
> 
> You only really hear ti and chi forms combined in one sentence when you're talking to learners who have yet to get the hang of ti/chi.


Thanks again, Tegs


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