# als sinnvoll



## sedmont

*I'm not sure if I have translated "als sinnvoll" into English properly. 

Question: Am I correct in translating it so that the author seems to be inserting his own judgement that Johnson had "sensibly" outlined a path? *
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Da sich sowohl die Regierung wie führende Industrielle ablehnend verhielten und damit der in den "Kernpunkten"  von Johnson als sinnvoll skizzierte Weg über systemüberwindende Formen versperrt war, stand die anwachsende Bewegung nun vor der Herausforderung, eine andere politische Strategie zu entwickeln.


Because both the government and leading industrialists reacted negatively, thus blocking the path to system-changing reforms as [those reforms were] sensibly outlined by Johnson in the [book] "Central Points", the growing movement stood now before the challenge of developing another political strategy.


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## Hutschi

Hi, it is meaningful, rational or useful. dict.cc Wörterbuch :: sinnvoll :: Deutsch-Englisch-Übersetzung
I do not know whether "sensible" works. In case of doubt what to use, I'd say "rational".

Please proofread the German sentence with the source. It has mistakes making it hard to read.

Da sich sowohl die Regierung wie führende Industrielle ablehnend verhielten und damit der in den "Kernpunkte*n*" *von* Johnson als sinnvoll skizzierte Weg über systemüberwindende Formen versperrt war, stand die anwachsende Bewegung nun vor der Herausforderung, eine andere politische Strategie zu entwickeln.

Because both the government and leading industrialists reacted negatively, thus blocking the path to system-changing reforms *outlined as (being) rational * by Johnson in the [book] "*Kernpunkte*" _(I would translate the title only if an English book exists),_ the growing movement stood now before the challenge of developing another political strategy.


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## sedmont

Thanks very much Hutschi, I've now fixed the German sentence to match the text I got it from.

I see also that my translation was incorrect.  Thanks for the correction.  But why is sinnvoll not an adverb? I see you have it as an adjective.  I don't understand why in this circumstance the adjective has no ending in the German.


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## Hutschi

The form is "der ... als *sinnvoll skizzierte* Weg"
Sinnvoll is a kind of adverb but it belongs to the participle "skizzierte" which works as adjective here.

Da sich sowohl die Regierung wie führende Industrielle ablehnend verhielten und damit *der* in den "Kernpunkten" von Johnson *als sinnvoll skizzierte Weg* über systemüberwindende Formen versperrt war, 

Der Weg ist als sinnvoll skizziert.

The way is outlined as (being) rational


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## sedmont

Is the rule that if you have "als" before the German adverb, the English translation of the adverb no longer uses an "ly" ending? I keep wanting to translate sinnvoll as "rationally"


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## sedmont

You have "as [being] rational" -- is sinnvoll modifying the implied "being" -- where "being" is a verbal form, so literally one gets "outlined as rationally being Weg" or "outlined as rationally existing Weg"?


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## Hutschi

I am not so sure in Enlish. May be it should be "the way which is outlined/considered as rationally/as being rationally."
In German the  form of the word is the same. And in English it is difficult.

Would you say it is rational or it is rationally?
It is considered as being rational or rationally?

Nevertheless, in German it is a kind of adverb.
I wrote "a kind of" because German Adverb and English "adverb" have some differences.
And: not all English adverbs are marked.

So I try to make it clear not by names but by examples:

Der Weg ist rational. Point of view is objective. The way is rational. (..ly?)
Der Weg ist als rational skizziert. Point of view is subjective.  The way is outlined rationally = as being rational (...ly?).
I transform the sentence:

Es ist der rational begründete Weg.
It is the (rationally oulined) way.
It is the way rationally outlined.
Es ist der Weg, der rational skizziert ist.

Please correct rational/rationally so that it is idiomatically correct.


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## Hutschi

sedmont said:


> Is "als sinnvoll" modifying skizzierte, or Weg?  I think you are saying it modifies Weg, a noun. But you are also saying that "als sinnvoll" belongs to skizzierte, which is an adjective.
> 
> So I guess what all of this means is that even though the thing modified is a noun, and the modifier is an adjective, the adjective for some reason has the form of an adverb, because it belongs to an adjective?



It modifies syntactically "skizziert" but semantically you cannot strictly separate it.
It is the way outlined as rationally.

"Skizziert" is seldom used in such context. It makes some difficulties even in German language.

 That is why I asked you to compare with the original. It is not an easy selfcorrecting sentence. Thanks for providing the corrected version.
The main difference between belonging to "way" and to "skizziert" appears to be the point of view.

Als sinnvoll skizziert: Skizzieren may have two meanings:
1. to make it rational virtually by describing it as rationally/as being rational. (to outline)
2. to describe it as being rational.

I think it is the first one.


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## sedmont

Thank you very much Hutschi for the detailed replies.  I wonder if I could try this question. Would you be able to agree to either 1) or 2) ?

1) When you think the above German sentence in German, do you think an adverbial meaning for sinnvoll, and then when you translate it to English, do you change it to an adjective because English people do not think adverbially in this kind of grammatical situation?    

OR

2) When you think the thought in German, do you think an adjectival meaning, and that is why you translate sinnvoll as an adjective, even though it has no adjective ending?


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## Hutschi

Sorry I cannot answer 1. I do not know really how the English speaking people think.
I am just not absolutely clear about English adverbs, so Germanisms or false friends may be involved.

In German there is not necessarily an adjective ending.

In _Der Weg ist rational._ - some grammars call it adverb, others call it adjectives. In school I learned it is an adjective.

You can transform the sentence.


Da sich sowohl die Regierung wie führende Industrielle ablehnend verhielten und damit *der* in den "Kernpunkten" von Johnson *als sinnvoll skizzierte Weg* über systemüberwindende Formen versperrt war,


Da sich sowohl die Regierung wie führende Industrielle ablehnend verhielten und damit *der* *Weg, der*  (in den "Kernpunkten") *als sinnvoll *(über systemüberwindende Formen)* skizziert war,*  versperrt war, ...

This has the same meaning but bad style. Even harder to read, double "war" in short distance.

Considering "als sinnvoll skizziert" it seems to be an adverb, because you cannot decline it. But this is just one interpretation. The whole "als sinnvoll skizziert"
 works like an adjective, but I do not know how this form is called.

Note that adjective and adverb may be defined different from English in some details.


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## Kajjo

_Because both the government and leading industrialists reacted negatively, thus blocking the path to system-changing reforms as outlined to be reasonable by Johnson in the [book] "Central Points", the growing movement stood now before the challenge of developing another political strategy.
_
Johnson says the path is reasonable.


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## Hutschi

Kajjo said:


> _Because both the government and leading industrialists reacted negatively, thus blocking the path to system-changing reforms as outlined to be reasonable by Johnson in the [book] "Central Points", the growing movement stood now before the challenge of developing another political strategy.
> _
> Johnson says the path is reasonable.



I agree. It seems to be better than "rational". ("Rational" was the nearest I found.)

Do you consider it as adverb or as adjective?


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## Minnesota Guy

To me, "sinnvoll" seems to be an adjective---but perhaps I should defer to native speakers on that point.

On adjective endings: they're are used in certain contexts, preceding a noun (ein gut*er *Wein) or when used as nouns (die Alt*en*). (I'm simplifying a bit here.)

But in other contexts, you don't use an ending (which may contrast with other foreign languages you know):  Der Wein ist gut (not *guter). Ich halte diesen Wein für gut (not *guten). So it's not surprising that "sinnvoll" doesn't have an ending.


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## sedmont

Hutschi, Kajjo, and Minnesota Guy, thanks very much for your very helpful replies. To all, I understand that in German not every adjective takes an ending. But "als sinnvoll" precedes its noun -- so I don't get why it has no ending, though Hutschi has partly explained.


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## Kajjo

Wenn _sinnvoll_ ein Adverb zu _skizziert _ist:

_der skizzierte Weg
der (sinnvoll skizzierte) Weg_

Ebenso könnten andere Adverbien beschreiben, wie der Weg skizziert wurde.

_der schnell/ausführlich/oberflächlich skizzierte Weg_

Im Unterschied dazu wäre ein attributives Adjektiv immer dekliniert:

_der schnelle Weg
der skizzierte Weg
der sinnvolle Weg_

_der sinnvolle, skizzierte Weg = the reasonable, depicted path
der sinnvoll skizzierte Weg = the reasonably depicted path
_
Die Besonderheit in dem Titelsatz ist die Form "als sinnvoll skizziert". Auch hier sehe ich "als sinnvoll" als Adverbialbestimmung zu "skizziert".


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## bearded

Kajjo said:


> Die Besonderheit in dem Titelsatz ist die Form "als sinnvoll skizziert". Auch hier sehe ich "als sinnvoll" als Adverbialbestimmung zu "skizziert".


Es scheint mir, dass bei ''der als sinnvoll skizzierte Weg'' das Wort sinnvoll eher ein Subjektprädikativ ist. Vgl. _ich betrachte den Weg als sinnvoll  _(sinnvoll: Objektprädikativ), _der als sinnvoll betrachtete/skizzierte Weg. _Das Problem ist für mich vielmehr:  ist ''einen Weg als sinnvoll skizzieren''  ein idiomatischer und semantisch...sinnvoller Satz?


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## Kajjo

bearded said:


> _der als sinnvoll betrachtete/skizzierte Weg. _Das Problem ist für mich vielmehr: ist ''einen Weg als sinnvoll skizzieren'' ein idiomatischer und semantisch...sinnvoller Satz?


Na ja, so richtig perfekt idiomatisch kommt es mir nicht vor, aber möglich und geradlinig ist es schon. _Skizzieren _ist halt kein besonders verbreitetes Wort in diesem Zusammenhang.

_Der von Johnson als empfehlenswert beschriebene Weg...
Der von Johnson als sinnvoll beschriebene/skizzierte Weg..._

Es ist halt ein Unterschied, ob der Weg von Johnson als sinnvoll oder empfehlebswert beschrieben wird oder wirklich sinnvoll oder empfehlenswert ist. Insofern ist diese Konstruktion "als ... beschrieben" durchaus elegant und idiomatisch. Aber ausgerechnet "sinnvoll" und "skizziert" wären nicht meine erste Wahl.


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## Blixa

Kajjo said:


> Wenn _sinnvoll_ ein Adverb zu _skizziert _ist:
> 
> _der skizzierte Weg
> der (sinnvoll skizzierte) Weg_
> 
> Ebenso könnte andere Adverbien beschreiben, wie der Weg skizziert wurde.
> 
> _der schnell/ausführlich/oberflächlich skizzierte Weg_
> 
> Im Unterschied dazu wäre ein attributives Adjektiv immer dekliniert:
> 
> _der schnelle Weg
> der skizzierte Weg
> der sinnvolle Weg_
> 
> _der sinnvolle, skizzierte Weg = the reasonable, depicted path
> der sinnvoll skizzierte Weg = the reasonably depicted path
> _
> Die Besonderheit in dem Titelsatz ist die Form "als sinnvoll skizziert". Auch hier sehe ich "als sinnvoll" als Adverbialbestimmung zu "skizziert".



Diese Informationen sind sehr sinvoll für mich, danke! Du hast völlig Recht, man kann nicht alle attributive Adjektive deklinieren, dafür braucht man ein Komma.


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## sedmont

I'm not sure I understand the result of the foregoing discussion. It seems that Kajjo is saying that sinnvoll here is indeed an adverb modifying skizzierte -- if so, should the adverb be translated into English as an English adverb? Or must it become an adjective in English? How would you translate it?  Thanks again.

Da sich sowohl die Regierung wie führende Industrielle ablehnend verhielten und damit der in den "Kernpunkten" von Johnson als sinnvoll skizzierte Weg über systemüberwindende Formen versperrt war, stand die anwachsende Bewegung nun vor der Herausforderung, eine andere politische Strategie zu entwickeln.


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## Kajjo

sedmont said:


> How would you translate it? Thanks again.


See #11:

_Because both the government and leading industrialists reacted negatively, thus blocking the path to system-changing reforms as outlined to be reasonable by Johnson in the [book] "Central Points", the growing movement stood now before the challenge of developing another political strategy._


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## Hutschi

Kajjo said:


> See #11:
> 
> _Because both the government and leading industrialists reacted negatively, thus blocking the path to system-changing reforms as outlined to be reasonable by Johnson in the [book] "Central Points", the growing movement stood now before the challenge of developing another political strategy._




I support this translation.


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## sedmont

Thank you Kajjo. When you write "outlined to be reasonable," your intended meaning I believe is "outlined as reasonable". "Outlined to be reasonable" suggests to my English ear something else, such as "outlined in order to be reasonable," which I don't think you mean.


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## Kajjo

sedmont said:


> "outlined as reasonable"


Sorry, yes.


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## sedmont

Thank you for the clarification.


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## Schlabberlatz

Beardeds Erklärung erscheint mir einleuchtend, d. h. ich glaube, dass es sich bei ›sinnvoll‹ hier um ein prädikativ verwendetes Adjektiv handelt.


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