# the limit, to limit



## ThomasK

How do you translate (and understand) _a limit/ to limit_ - or the concept ? 

Dutch: 
- a limit: *e*_*en limiet*,_ but quite uncommon; we will refer to a border (_*grens*) _or a limitation _(*beperking (*< park))_;
 the limit is often_ a paal, _pole, which explains why we can translate 'to define' als _bepalen
_
_- _to limit: (1) *beperken *(referring to 'park' , a limited zone with some kind of border), meaning: to keep under control, BUT this _beperken _may also imply reducing 
(2) sometimes _*afgrenzen *_('grens' again + off), afbakenen ('baken' = beacon, a limit marker so to speak) 

- to reduce: *verminderen *(to lessen), *verlagen *perhaps (make lower)

That was my starting point: do you always distinguish between imposing limits, maxima, and reducing?  In this crisis period governments refer to _beperking van de uitgaven,_ i.e., not just limiting the expenses, but at  the same time (certainly implicitly, often explicitly) cutting down on the expenses. Do you see the same link? 

In French two different terms seem to be used to express (1) and (2): _*limiter *(une limite)_ and *réduire*. And I suppose _*frontière *and *limite *_are not considered synonyms.


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## ancalimon

Turkish:

limit: sınır  (border)

to limit: sınırla


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## Perseas

Hi ancalimon,

do you happen to know the etymology of _sinir_? It resembles a lot the Greek _σύνορο_ /'sinoro/?


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## apmoy70

Hi TK,



ThomasK said:


> How do you translate (and understand) a limit/ to limit - or the concept ?
> 
> Dutch:
> - a limit: een limiet, but quite uncommon; we will refer to a border (grens) or a limitation (beperking (< park));
> the limit is often a paal, pole, which explains why we can translate 'to define' als bepalen


In Greek we translate it as:
1A) «Όριο» /'ori.o/ (neut.) a Classical neuter noun, «ὅριον» 'hŏrīŏn --> _boundary, limit_, and in pl. «ὅρια» --> _frontier, boundaries_; PIE base *(o)rū-, *(o)rū-g-, *orw-, _to dig; ditch (incl. as a boundary)_ (cf. Skt. अरुस् (arus), _wound, sore_; Proto-Slavic *rъvъ, _to cut, to split_; Lat. urvus, _furrow, boundary_).
1B) «Περιορισμός» /peri.ori'zmos/ (masc.) again an ancient masculine noun «περιορισμός» pĕrĭŏrī'smŏs --> lit. _marking out by boundaries_, metaph. _limit, confinement_; compound, prefix and preposition «περὶ» pĕ'rĭ --> _around, about, beyond_ (PIE base *per-, _through, across, beyond_) + neuter noun, «ὅριον» 'hŏrīŏn (see above).


ThomasK said:


> - to limit: (1) beperken (referring to 'park' , a limited zone with some kind of border), meaning: to keep under control, BUT this beperken may also imply reducing
> (2) sometimes afgrenzen ('grens' again + off), afbakenen ('baken' = beacon, a limit marker so to speak)


Verb «περιορίζω» /peri.o'rizo/ --> _to limit_ but also _to confine_ (i.e. _to keep within bounds_).
«Ορίζω» /o'rizo/ in the ancient language («ὁρίζω» hŏ'rīzō) described a similar concept (_to bound, mark out by boundaries_) but in the modern language means, _to define, escrow_. 


ThomasK said:


> - to reduce: verminderen (to lessen), verlagen perhaps (make lower)


1A) «Μειώνω» /mi'ono/ --> _to lessen, diminish, reduce_, Classical verb «μειόω/μειῶ» mei'ŏō [uncontracted]/mei'ō [contracted] with the same meanings, from PIE base *mey-, _small_ (cf. Lat. minuere, Rus. менее, Ger. minder).
1B) «Ελαττώνω» /ela'tono/ --> _to reduce, decrease_, Classical verb «ἐλαττόω/ἐλαττῶ» ĕlăt'tŏō [uncontracted]/ĕlăt'tō [contracted] (sometimes also «ἐλασσόω/ἐλασσῶ») --> _to make less or smaller, diminish, reduce in amount_, PIE base *legʷʰ-, _not heavy, having little weight_ (cf. Skt. लघु (laghu), _tiny, not heavy_; Lat. levis > Fr. léger, Sp. leve; Ger. leicht, Eng. light).


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## ancalimon

Perseas said:


> Hi ancalimon,
> 
> do you happen to know the etymology of _sinir_? It resembles a lot the Greek _σύνορο_ /'sinoro/?



I am not sure but I think it's supposed to be borrowed from Rum language (thus Greek).  But it could also be related with the verb "sığ" meaning "to fit into a confined place"


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## ThomasK

Thanks, all three. I would like to know especially whether the two meanings (limiting and cutting down on) imply different verbs. Could you both in Greek and in Turkish refer to governments limiting expenses (but implying cutting down on them)?

As for Turkish:  what would be your verb for cutting down then? Quite different ? Do you perceive any link? 

As for Greek: what is the difference between /synoro/ and /periorismos/ (the latter clearly implies containing; 'peri')? The two meanings seem quite different from a Greek point of view, don't they?


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## Perseas

@ancalimon
Thanks for your reply.

@ThomasK*
σύνορο *(*όριο *is a synonym):


literally, is the boundary/border between areas/countries. E.g. _the boundaries between our countries/our fields_.
 

an example of metaphorical use: τα σύνορα της ανθρώπινης γνώσης=the limits of human knowledge
 *περιορισμός*:apmoy72 described everything perfectly; it may also mean _restriction, reduction, internment, restraint_.

As for the prefix _περι_- , usually it means _containing_ --as you say-- or _around/about_.


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## Outsider

ThomasK said:


> How do you translate (and understand) _a limit/ to limit_ - or the concept ?
> 
> [...]
> 
> That was my starting point: do you always distinguish between imposing limits, maxima, and reducing?  In this crisis period governments refer to _beperking van de uitgaven,_ i.e., not just limiting the expenses, but at  the same time (certainly implicitly, often explicitly) cutting down on the expenses. Do you see the same link?


Not presently. In Portuguese:

(a) limit: (um) *limite*
to limit: *limitar*
limitation (e.g. of expenses): *limitação*
reduction: *redução*
to reduce: *reduzir*

Still, your question did remind me of an old sense of _redução_, found in the expression "Jesuit reductions", where it could be interpreted as domain, or limit.

P.S. In political contexts, though, "limiting" is ordinarily understood as a synonym of "reducing", isn't it?


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## ThomasK

That is the point, I suppose, indeed, Sr Outsider: it is like a euphemism of the original meaning. On the other hand, we have always - well as far as I can remember - used it in the sense of contain, but I think one very spontaneously associates containing with reducing, doen't it. _ [Oh, and the Jesuit reductions: I remember the movie and the score... The funny thing is that in my view it is more containment than reduction, but of course when looked at from the original point of view it is limiting/ reducing their places to live...]_


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## aruniyan

Two Tamil words,

*Alavu* : which means Level , but used to denote the "limit", for example, *alav-arinthu* (knowing/learning the level),* alav-udan*(keeping the level).

*Kurai/Kuruku* : reduce(shorten), means  "to reduce", "to limit".


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## ThomasK

Is the _alavu _also the border ?


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## aruniyan

there is a separate word "ellai" (boundary), may be related to alavu(level), not sure.


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## Outsider

ThomasK said:


> _[Oh, and the Jesuit reductions: I remember the movie and the score... The funny thing is that in my view it is more containment than reduction, but of course when looked at from the original point of view it is limiting/ reducing their places to live...]_


Or confining them to an enclosed area...


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## Tamar

In Hebrew _to limit_ and _to reduce _are different words. 
To limit, to restrict - להגביל[lehagbil]
a limit - גבול [gvul]
limitation, restriction - מגבלה [migbala]  (Also means handicap). 
to reduce - להפחית [lehafxit]


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## ThomasK

That is an interesting link, Tamar. yet, intuitively I'd say restriction can imply reduction, or at least making smaller. Is that link/ association a wrong one. And indeed _migbala_, beperking, is the present word for handicap in Dutch. 

Most people suffering from a handicap will associate that with limitation of their possibilities - but maybe that is another link, after the hint at euphemism by Outsider: limitation is at least negative, implies constraint, reducing the number of possibilities guaranteed by freedom, so it is maybe not strictly speaking a reduction, but when comparing with the other situation it looks very much like that ('lack' in the psychological sense).


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## mataripis

Tagalog: 1. Limitation= Hangganan     2.) To limit (reduce or control)= bawasan or lagyan ng hangganan


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## Tamar

Thomas, I see what you mean. And after giving it some more thought I realized that you can see that connection in Hebrew:
Handicap, disability in Hebrew is also נכות [nexut] (a handicap person would be נכה [nexe] or בעל-מגבלה [ba'al migbala])
The root is נכי nxi. 
From this root we also have ניכוי [nikuy] deduction, like: ניכוי מס [nikuy mas] - tax deduction.


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## ThomasK

See a new thread now on metaphorical expressions...


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## Awwal12

The main Russian word is предел (predél), of obvious Church Slavonic origin, which likely meant something like "an overdivide" originally - essentially, "a border" (which is exactly its second meaning in Russian, mostly used in set expressions).

In some contexts the word крайность (kráynost') may be used, literally "extremity", or, even more literally, "~edgishness", from край (kráy) - "edge", "rim", "outer bordering part" etc.


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## ThomasK

The latter seems quite clear, but an "overdivide"? /pre-del/? I can imagine the link with "divide' but does 'over' imply "trans"?


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> I can imagine the link with "divide' but does 'over' imply "trans"?


"Trans-", "over-", "across"...

If разделить means "to divide apart" (> "to share"), then *пределить should have meant something like "to divide across", i.e., essentially, "to make a border".


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## rarabara

Perseas said:


> _sinir_? ?



sinir and sınır are different meanings in turkish language.


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## Armas

Finnish:
_raja_ "border, limit"
_rajata_ "to border", "to draw/mark (the) borders", "to confine"
_rajoittaa_ "to limit, to restrict"
_rajoitus_ "limit, limitation, restriction"
The etymology is from Old East Slavic _krai_ (see post #19).


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## ThomasK

Can you _rajoittaa/rajata/_… a territory, numbers, spending? Can you use the terms metaphorically, as an expression?


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