# Comparative, superlative: two-syllable words.



## Eugens

Hi!

I've seen both comparatives and superlatives of the words "tidy" and "gentle" written as:
tidier - tidiest / more tidy - most tidy
gentler - gentlest / more gentle - most gentle

Could you give me examples of other common two-syllable adjectives that can carry the two forms of comparison alike?

Besides "fun", do you know other adjectives that "break the rules" of comparative/superlative-making or is that the only one?

Thank you!
(And please correct any mistake I've made)


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## cuchuflete

frothy
crazy
bumpy


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## panjandrum

Does funny, funnier, funniest break the rule?
Funny, more funny, most funny...
I think you can use the more and most forms with all adjectives - but I could be wildly wrong.

Edit:   Sorry Eugens, I wasn't paying attention to your question about fun.
Fun isn't normally considered to be an adjective. When I say "normally", I mean by normal people like me.
I do appreciate that some fun people actually use fun as an adjective. They are also free to use funner and funnest if they wish to pervert the language like that.

Almost-6-year-old WMPG uses funner and funnest. It hasn't made the transition across the generation gaps yet, although I understand her. Of course, I also spoke fluent 2-year-old when that was important. I just never thought it was appropriate in formal official letters


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## bartonig

_Fun _can be used an adjective in a very restricted sense - _It was a fun party. It was more fun than last year's. In fact, it was the most fun I've ever had.

Funny_ is a different adjective.


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## foxfirebrand

bartonig said:
			
		

> _In fact, it was the most fun I've ever had._


I think _fun_ is a noun in this sentence.  

Are we having fun yet?  I wish we were having more fun.  I guess this is the most fun we're gonna have.  

To resolve confusion, substitute _sex_ for _fun_, and see if it makes sense.  If the sentence calls for _sexy_ instead, you're using _fun_ as an adjective.

It doesn't get any more fun than this.  (Calls for _sexier--_ so it's an adjective.)
.


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## maxiogee

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I guess this is the most fun we're gonna have.
> 
> substitute _sex_ for _fun_, and see if it makes sense.



Nope, that makes no sense to me!


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## jdenson

panjandrum said:
			
		

> Does funny, funnier, funniest break the rule?
> Funny, more funny, most funny...
> I think you can use the more and most forms with all adjectives - but I could be wildly wrong.
> 
> Edit:   Sorry Eugens, I wasn't paying attention to your question about fun.
> Fun isn't normally considered to be an adjective. When I say "normally", I mean by normal people like me.
> I do appreciate that some fun people actually use fun as an adjective. They are also free to use funner and funnest if they wish to pervert the language like that.
> 
> Almost-6-year-old WMPG uses funner and funnest. It hasn't made the transition across the generation gaps yet, although I understand her. Of course, I also spoke fluent 2-year-old when that was important. I just never thought it was appropriate in formal official letters


With all respect to our Irish cousins, _fun_, _funnier_, and _funniest_ are completely accepted in American English. _Funner_ and _funnest_, however, are inexcusable.


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## panjandrum

jdenson said:
			
		

> With all respect to our Irish cousins, _fun_, _funnier_, and _funniest_ are completely accepted in American English. _Funner_ and _funnest_, however, are inexcusable.


My sentiments entirely.  But there is a huge movement out there that disagrees with us.


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## foxfirebrand

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Nope, that makes no sense to me!


Yeah, I guess for some lucky people sex _is_ fun.  Didn't mean to suggest rampant redundancy.


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## bartonig

bartonig said:
			
		

> _Fun _can be used an adjective in a very restricted sense - _It was a fun party. It was more fun than last year's. In fact, it was the most fun I've ever had._
> 
> _Funny_ is a different adjective.


 
I agree! In _It was more fun than last year's. In fact, it was the most fun I've ever had_ fun is a noun_._ So _fun _as an adjective in the first sentence is an example of an adjective that has no comparative or superlative forms.


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## bartonig

Now, I'm thinking about sex.

There is a difference in intonation when you say _It was a sex party_. The stress is on sex. It's similar to _It's a Tupperware party_. Blimey, that's showing my age!

There is no particular stress in the noun phrase when you say _It was a fun party_. I think that the difference helps to differentiate in word classification sex and fun in these sentences.


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## AMB49062

Big,bigger, biggest. small, smaller, smallest Most, mostly. Like,likely, likeness. Friend, Friendly.  Love, Lovely, so on. Just little words like that can become different words.

Pebbles


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## Eugens

Thank you very much!


			
				panjandrum said:
			
		

> Does funny, funnier, funniest break the rule?
> Funny, more funny, most funny...
> I think you can use the more and most forms with all adjectives - but I could be wildly wrong.


Sorry for not giving details about the "rule" I was referring to. I wasn't sure then if it was necessary.

Most non-native learners are taught that comparatives and superlatives of short adjectives (those with only one syllable, e.g "hot", "clean", etc) are formed by adding -er or -est as a suffix (hotter, cleanest, etc, you can't say "most hot").

Comparatives and superlatives of long adjectives (three syllables or more) are formed by adding "more" or "most" before the adjective (e.g. more important, most suitable, etc, you can't say "importantest")

Two-syllable adjectives are in the transition zone (can I say "the twilight zone"? I know it was a TV programme, but is it used to mean transition?). Some form their comparatives and superlatives by adding er/est like "happier, happiest" (I think you can't say "more happy, the most happy", can you?). Some only by adding "more" or "most" and some can use both, e.g: tidy, gentle, frothy, crazy, bumpy, funny... Are there more? Are two-syllable adjectives that can't use both forms (like "happy"?) really the exception? (I'm asking because I thought that those that use the two forms were the exceptional ones)

I said that "fun" as an adjective "breaks the rule" because it is a one-syllable adjective that, according to the webpage whose link I've posted, uses "more" and "most" to form its comparative and superlative (more fun, most fun) as a long adjective would. But I suppose it is so because this case is special, "fun" is a word that "has moved away from being just a noun to being equally comfortable in an adjectival role." Do you know of other special cases?


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## bartonig

Eugens said:
			
		

> Sorry for not giving details about the "rule" I was referring to. I wasn't sure then if it was necessary.
> 
> Most non-native speakers are taught that comparatives and superlatives of short adjectives (those with only one syllable, e.g "hot", "clean", etc) are formed by adding -er or -est as a suffix (hotter, cleanest, etc, you can't say "most hot").
> 
> Comparatives and superlatives of long adjectives (three syllables or more) are formed by adding "more" or "most" before the adjective (e.g. more important, most suitable, etc, you can't say "importantest")
> 
> Two-syllable adjectives are in the transition zone (can I say "the twilight zone"? I know it was a TV programme, but is it used to mean transition?). Some form their comparatives and superlatives by adding er/est like "happier, happiest" (I think you can't say "more happy, the most happy", can you?). Some only by adding "more" or "most" and some can use both, e.g: tidy, gentle, frothy, crazy, bumpy, funny... Are there more? Are two-syllable adjectives that can't use both forms (like "happy"?) really the exception?
> 
> I said that "fun" as an adjective "breaks the rule" because it is a one-syllable adjective that, according to the webpage whose link I've posted, uses "more" and "most" to form its comparative and superlative (more fun, most fun) as a long adjective would. But I suppose it is so because this case is an exception, "fun" is a word that "has moved away from being just a noun to being equally comfortable in an adjectival role."


 
All disyllabic adjectives use more/most but many of them can also be inflected. These are adjectives that end with an unstressed vowel, the 'l' sound or 'er'. Examples are _early_, _narrow_, _simple_, _happy_ and _friendly_. In a few cases the inflected form is more often used - _easier_ rather than _more easy_. There are exceptions, though. You could say _slenderer_ but not _eagerer_.

There are _few_ disyllabic adjectives ending in a consonant sound that can take the inflected form - _quieter_ (but _more quiet_ is acceptable).


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## Eugens

Thank you very much, bartonig. Your explanation is very useful. So, if I said "more happy", it wouldn't be wrong, but it's just more common to say "happier".


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## bartonig

Eugens said:
			
		

> Thank you very much, bartonig. Your explanation is very useful. So, if I said "more happy", it wouldn't be wrong, but it's just more common to say "happier".


 
Si e buona notte.


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## Janka

Hi, I really need to know which one is correct: More stupid or stupider? What do you think, guys?
Thanks


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## GenJen54

In my opinion, it would be stupider to say stupider.  More stupid is correct.


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## irenemay

Obviously the correct form is "more stupid", though I am sure that the INCORRECT form stupider is much funnier.

Hope it will help

Irene


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## AMB49062

More stupid, better. They're are both not very good, but that one works better. Stupider, is what a kid would say.

Example: More Stupid" Your more stupid, than a monkey.
Example: "Stupider" Your stupider than a monkey.

Make sense?

Pebbles


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## Dr. Quizá

irenemay said:
			
		

> Obviously the correct form is "more stupid", though I am sure that the INCORRECT form stupider is much funnier.
> 
> Hope it will help
> 
> Irene



I don't know why it is obvious. Is there a rule to know what adjectives must use the word "more" or the suffix "-er"?

I wrote this sentence in a report:
"a pointer is still a more clear and visible way to point an option."

Is that correct? Or should I use one of these options:

"clearer and visibler"
"more clear and more visible"
"clearer and more visible"


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## GenJen54

AMB49062 said:
			
		

> Example: More Stupid" Your more stupid, than a monkey.
> Example: "Stupider" Your stupider than a monkey.


 *Ahem.*
_You're_ more stupid than a monkey.  _(No comma necessary)._
_You're_ stupider than...

*EDIT: *The rule in general is that the suffix _-er_ is usually used when comparing adjectives that have one or two syllables.  Use of "more + adjective" is usually reserved for adjectives with three or more syllables.

However, as with almost everything in English, there are exceptions to the "rule." This is one of those exceptions.


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## panjandrum

You should check out posts earlier in this thread which explain some of the guidelines for the formation of comparative and superlative forms of adjectives.

Stupider is used quite often in conversation, but more stupid is the standard form.


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## irenemay

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I don't know why it is obvious. Is there a rule to know what adjectives must use the word "more" or the suffix "-er"?
> 
> Yet it is. Check this page:
> http://www.english-zone.com/teach/crules1.html
> 
> I wrote this sentence in a report:
> "a pointer is still a more clear and visible way to point an option."
> 
> It sounds correct to me
> 
> Irenemay


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## panjandrum

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> I don't know why it is obvious. Is there a rule to know what adjectives must use the word "more" or the suffix "-er"?
> 
> I wrote this sentence in a report:
> "a pointer is still a more clear and visible way to point an option."
> 
> Is that correct? Or should I use one of these options:
> 
> "clearer and visibler"
> "more clear and more visible"
> "clearer and more visible"


I agree with you, it is not at all obvious except to natives 

In your example I would have said "clearer and more visible".
As written, the "more" does not necessarily apply to "visible".


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## HistofEng

I agree...I would write


"a pointer is still a clearer and more visible way to....


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## Dr. Quizá

Oop, thanks; I completely forgot that the suffix is used with one or two syllable words  

BTW:

"However, as with almost everything in English, there are exceptions to the "rule." This is one of those exceptions."

I'd never thoght about that, but, does this mean the "s" in "stupid" counts as a syllable or not?


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## HistofEng

also..I feel very "in the dark" because I thought for sure in my head that the way it should be said is _'stupider'...._

I don't think I could ever bring myself to say '_more stupid_' even though it may be more standard


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## HistofEng

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> Oop, thanks; I completely forgot that the suffix is used with one or two syllable words
> 
> BTW:
> 
> "However, as with almost everything in English, there are exceptions to the "rule." This is one of those exceptions."
> 
> I'd never thoght about that, but, does this mean the "s" in "stupid" counts as a syllable or not?


 

no... "stupid" is a *two* syllable word:  "stu"...."pid" 

which is why in standard English, it is an exception to the rule.

but to tell you the truth I just asked my roommate what she would say and she said she uses them both, we are both kind of confused right now.


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## GenJen54

Dr. Quizá said:
			
		

> does this mean the "s" in "stupid" counts as a syllable or not?


No. The word only has two syllables: stu - pid. "st" together is called a consonant cluster: two consonants locked together to form a single "sound." They cannot be divided.

Remember, in English, the word is pronounced _/stoo'-p3d/.  _

A common mistake among many Spanish speakers (not sure if this is what you were talking about) is to pronounce the "s" at the beginning of words such as "stupid" and "special" as "estupid," and "especial." The "e" in these words does not exist at all in English, in either their spelling or pronunciation.


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## Jazztronik

The termination -er is only used in short adjectives, isn't it? I think when the words are longer you always have to use "more + adjective".

For instance:
cheap --> cheap*er*
expensive --> *more* expensive


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## GenJen54

jazztronik said:
			
		

> The termination -er is only used in short adjectives, isn't it? I think when the words are longer you always have to use "more + adjective".


 
Typically. Please see my edit in Post #22, above.


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## Jazztronik

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> A common mistake among many Spanish speakers (not sure if this is what you were talking about) is to pronounce the "s" at the beginning of words such as "stupid" and "special" as "estupid," and "especial." The "e" in these words does not exist at all in English, in either their spelling or pronunciation.


 
That's true! Almost everone I know does it. "Those stars" is pronounced commonly like this: "Those-astars" instead of "thoughssstars" or something similar.


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## Dr. Quizá

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> A common mistake among many Spanish speakers (not sure if this is what you were talking about) is to pronounce the "s" at the beginning of words such as "stupid" and "special" as "estupid," and "especial." The "e" in these words does not exist at all in English, in either their spelling or pronunciation.



Not about that, actually, but that I find a very strong change from the "s" to the "t" and a stop between them, so it's hard to think they are part of the same syllable although we do think too that a "s" alone can't be a syllable.


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## saraht

Hi everyone
I think this is a related question, so I'll post it here:

Would you say 'the unhealthiest' or 'the most unhealthy' or both?

Thanks


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## Cagey

Response to *Post #35*



saraht said:


> Hi everyone
> I think this is a related question, so I'll post it here:
> 
> Would you say 'the unhealthiest' or 'the most unhealthy' or both?



I think that in practice people say both. 

"the most unhealthy" would be the standard form because the usual rule is that superlatives of words over two syllables long are formed by using _most,_ not by adding _-est_ to the end.  

However, _unhealthiest _is commonly found in ordinary speech and even in writing. I think this is because:1) _unhealthiest_ sounds right to people because it seems to be simply _un_- added to _healthiest,_ which _is_ grammatical. (See post #15.)

2)  _the most unhealthy_ seems wrong, because it attaches a positive (_most)_ to a negative (_un-_).  It would seem more natural to say "_the least healthy_".  However, this does not express what we mean by "_most unhealthy_" - that it actually harms your health.​Of the two, I prefer "_the most unhealthy_", but I don't like it much for reason #2.  In real life I would probably rephrase it as "the worst for your health", or something similar.


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## kitenok

> Would you say 'the unhealthiest' or 'the most unhealthy' or both?


Ooh, good question. With un- adjectives we have a third option, too: _least + adjective-without-prefix,_ i.e. _least healthy_. 

In my own idiolect, all three would be possible. The Corpus of Contemporary American English is about evenly split (only 10 or 11 examples for each, strangely enough). 

Google can give us a larger data set, but grains of salt and all that. I've phrased these to try and avoid non-superlative collocations like "most unhealthy people eat seven big macs per day". The numbers are taken from the _last page of hits_, where Google tells you how many results it returned after removing all the duplicates. 
"the unhealthiest people" - 172 hits ................ "the unhealthiest food" - 120 hits
"the most unhealthy people" - 138 hits ........... "the most unhealthy food" - 214 hits
"the least healthy people" - 98 hits ................ "the least healthy food" - 68 hits

One safe conclusion from this: all three are possible.
One tentative conclusion from this: _unhealthiest _might be slightly more likely when referring to people, and _most unhealthy_ might be slightly more likely when referring to the healthfulness of things.

[_Edit: _Cagey posted while I was writing this.]


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## lawrencrj

I have a friend in Perm, Russia, whose native language is Russian but who teaches English at the University.  Recently she wrote me a short message on Facebook in which she used the word "oftener".  She has asked me to correct her whenever she writes something that does not appear to be standard English. I know that most monosyllable words like "big" and "strong" have a comparative and superlative form, but there are exceptions (such as "wrong"). But it appears to me that there is no set rule that one can follow to determine the exceptions. The fact that "stronger" and "strongest" is Ok but "wronger" and "wrongest" are not OK, sort of indicates that there is no rule one can follow.  In general, disyllabic and polysyllabic words (such as "often") do not have a comparative or superlative form, but there are numerous exceptions and no rule (that I know of) that can be depended on to determine if a word is an exception. Some exceptions were mentioned in previous posts that I have read.  "quiet" and "stupid" in particular.  And most (if not all) words ending in Y like "tiny" and "risky" have a comparative and superlative form.  I told my friend that she really needs to learn the exceptions by rote. I also told her that in almost all cases where a word has the comparative and superlative form, it is NOT correct to preface the basic word with "more" or "most".  But there are a few exceptions to this rule also.  Due to the lack of a dependable rule, it would seem to me that any good dictionary should specify whether or not the word has a comparative and superlative version and, if it does have, whether prefacing with "more" or "most" is also accepted.


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## Cagey

Welcome lawrencrj.

Here is another  thread that may interest you: Comparative, superlative: often.


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## mplsray

panjandrum said:


> You should check out posts earlier in this thread which explain some of the guidelines for the formation of comparative and superlative forms of adjectives.
> 
> Stupider is used quite often in conversation, but more stupid is the standard form.



I take issue with the idea that _more stupid_ is "the standard form." To me, _stupider_ is equally standard, and the following, from a discussion of comparatives and superlatives of two-syllable adjectives on page 579 of _The Teacher's Grammar of English: A Course Book and Reference Guide_ by Ron Cowan, supports this opinion, it seems to me:



> Still, stress placement and the ending of the base form are not always solid predictors of what the comparative form will be. As the following example pairs show, adjectives with the same stress pattern (stressed first syllable) and the same endings (_-id, -on, -er, -ed,_ or _-ant_) in some cases take either _-er_ or _more_ and in others must take _more._
> 
> _-id_ placid--more placcid (*placider); stupid--stupider/more stupid
> _-on_ common--commoner/more common; wanton--more wanton  (*wantoner)



The asterisk precedes an incorrect form.


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## inib

Even native speakers are never going to agree completely on this, but I find that my students get a majority of "right" answers by using the following guidelines:
One syllable adjectives: add *-er
*Three-or-more-syllable adjectives: use *more
*The complicated two-syllable adjectives:
- if they end in -er, -le, -ow, -y: add *-er
*- if they have other endings: use *more

*This advice will not be 100% foolproof, but I think it helps.
PS: I have my own doubts about 2-syllable *adverbs*. I think I prefer _more slowly_ to _slowlier_, but I always hesitate.


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## Scholiast

Greetings!

I think I have glanced through the entire thread, but please excuse if I have missed something. Here's a footnote:

"Stupider" does sound a little odd, but "stupidest" is surely fine:

"That was the stupidest thing to say".

"He is one of the stupidest men I know".


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## Merrit

inib said:


> PS: I have my own doubts about 2-syllable *adverbs*. I think I prefer _more slowly_ to _slowlier_, but I always hesitate.



According to my grammar books, *adverbs* ending in *-ly* always take the _more/most_ route *.

Adverbs which have the same form as their adjectives (e.g. He drives fast. She works hard.) take the same comparative and superlative as their adjectives.

m

EDIT: * ... or the _less/least_ route.


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## inib

Merrit said:


> According to my grammar books, *adverbs* ending in *-ly* always take the _more/most_ route *.
> 
> Adverbs which have the same form as their adjectives (e.g. He drives fast. She works hard.) take the same comparative and superlative as their adjectives.
> 
> m
> 
> EDIT: * ... or the _less/least_ route.


Thanks, I forgot to specify that I meant 2-syllable adverbs ending in _-ly.
_To scholiast: I personally wouldn't use _stupider_ or _stupidest_, (at least not intentionally, who knows what I might have been caught saying unawares!), but opinions are so divided on this that I'm beginning to believe that both are pretty acceptable.


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## ribran

I don't have a problem with "stupider" and "stupidest." 


http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/stupid
*stu·pid* stu*:*pəd, _Brit_ ˈstju*:*pəd/ *adjective*
*stu·pid·er**;* *stu·pid·est


http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/stupid
adjective (stupider, stupidest)
*


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## inib

ribran said:


> I don't have a problem with "stupider" and "stupidest."
> 
> 
> http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/stupid
> *stu·pid* stu*:*pəd, _Brit_ ˈstju*:*pəd/ *adjective*
> *stu·pid·er**;* *stu·pid·est
> 
> 
> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/stupid
> adjective (stupider, stupidest)
> *


Well that just shows how odd I am! I've never pronounced _Brit_ /ˈstju*:*pəd/ but _(_Brit myself_)_ ˈstju*:*pid/ 
Anyway, I think you were just giving another opinion to help the statistics, not trying to contradict mine, which, as I already said, was personal and not to be taken for the one-and-only truth.


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## ribran

inib said:


> Well that just shows how odd I am! I've never pronounced _Brit_ /ˈstju*:*pəd/ but _(_Brit myself_)_ ˈstju*:*pid/
> Anyway, I think you were just giving another opinion to help the statistics, not trying to contradict mine, which, as I already said, was personal and not to be taken for the one-and-only truth.



I'm sorry, inib. I sincerely hope that wasn't how it seemed.  I actually hadn't seen your post yet when I wrote mine.


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## inib

ribran said:


> I'm sorry, inib. I sincerely hope that wasn't how it seemed.  I actually hadn't seen your post yet when I wrote mine.


No, that wasn't how it seemed. You never quoted me and sometimes posts take a while to get through. It's great to hear different opinions, I just wonder how much more non-native minds boggle!


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