# Ei, Hans wo kommen Sie denn her?



## Linni

What does the sentence mean?
*Ei, Hans wo kommen Sie denn her?*

Should "wo .... her" mean "where from"? It is "woher", then, isn't it? Why is it cut?


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## Whodunit

"Woher ...?" can also be used as "wo ... her?" Technically, there's no difference between the former and the latter form. But you should know that "from" does not correspond to "her" or vice versa. The particle (actually, it's a prefix) belongs to "kommen" (= herkommen), I think.


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## Sepia

What puzzles me is the formal "Sie" together with "Hans". This is unusual in German - however, sometimes used among people of occupations with a very "French flair" to them. Fashion Design, Stylists etc. 

If it were the ohter way around: "Du" and "Herr Hansen" I'd figure the people speaking were from Hamburg.


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## gaer

Sepia said:
			
		

> What puzzles me is the formal "Sie" together with "Hans". This is unusual in German - however, sometimes used among people of occupations with a very "French flair" to them. Fashion Design, Stylists etc.
> 
> If it were the ohter way around: "Du" and "Herr Hansen" I'd figure the people speaking were from Hamburg.


To me the sentence in the title sounds informal and formal at the same time. I wonder why?

Gaer


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## Whodunit

Sepia said:
			
		

> What puzzles me is the formal "Sie" together with "Hans". This is unusual in German - however, sometimes used among people of occupations with a very "French flair" to them. Fashion Design, Stylists etc.
> 
> If it were the ohter way around: "Du" and "Herr Hansen" I'd figure the people speaking were from Hamburg.


 
Some employees wear a name-tag, so you know their first name. However, that should not prevent you from using the polite form "Sie."


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Some employees wear a name-tag, so you know their first name. However, that should not prevent you from using the polite form "Sie."


I think the use of "Sie" has become very much more complicated since people have begun to use du/Du as we do here.

I would think there might be a slightly "schizoid" feeling upon meeting someone you would normally only use the formal address with AFTER you have already used the informal, as we do here for instance…  

Gaer


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## Lykurg

Sepia said:
			
		

> If it were the ohter way around: "Du" and "Herr Hansen" I'd figure the people speaking were from Hamburg.


Genau andersherum, Sepia: Das "Hamburger Sie" kombiniert "Sie" mit dem Vornamen. _"Lars, wären Sie so freundlich, ..." 
_Der Threadtitel entspricht dem "Hamburger Sie".

Die von Dir gemeinte Entsprechung dazu ist das "Münchner Du" oder "Berliner Du":_ "Frau Meier, gibst du mir mal den Kaffee?"_


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## Vespasian

"Ey, Hans wo kommen Sie denn her?"

I think this is very confusing to German language learners. The only thing that really matters is. "Ey" is informal. But "Sie" is formal. That's why this sentence sounds weird. My advise: Don't mix up informal and formal expressions unless you are proficient in the language and want to play around.


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## Lykurg

Vespasian, you changed it from "Ei" to "Ey"...

* "Ei" is a very old-fashioned exclamation of surprise, today mostly known from fairy tales. It is pronounced [ai] - as normal in German. 
* "Ey" is quite a rude (or very informal) addressing form, probably not used before the nineteen-eighties - pronounced as in English "they".


Linni, have you _read _or _heard _it?


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## MrMagoo

Lykurg said:


> * "Ei" is a very old-fashioned exclamation of surprise, today mostly known from fairy tales. It is pronounced [ai] - as normal in German.



Old-fashioned?
Dann mach mal einen Abstecher nach Hessen oder Sachsen, dort ist es (noch) in äußerst lebendigem Gebrauch! 

Gruß
-MrMagoo


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:


> "Woher ...?" can also be used as "wo ... her?" Technically, there's no difference between the former and the latter form. But you should know that "from" does not correspond to "her" or vice versa. The particle (actually, it's a prefix) belongs to "kommen" (= herkommen), I think.



In this case, it isn't.
"Wo... her" indeed is a (non-standard) way of saying "woher". It is formed more or less analogue to the German "Satzklammer", which might be the reason for this construction; so here, "her" does cover the meaning of "from".
Otherwise, "her" of course is a prefix in words like "herkommen, herschicken".

-MrMagoo


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## Kajjo

We have already discussed this issue here. The form of "wo...her" is non-standard, but wide-spread for "woher...".

Kajjo


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## Linni

Thank you for all your replies... I asked just about the "woher" and I see you were more interested in whether it is or isn't formal . 
Anyway, I didn't write the sentence, which means that I am not the "author" of mixing formal and informal German...




Lykurg said:


> Vespasian, you changed it from "Ei" to "Ey"...
> 
> * "Ei" is a very old-fashioned exclamation of surprise, today mostly known from fairy tales. It is pronounced [ai] - as normal in German.
> * "Ey" is quite a rude (or very informal) addressing form, probably not used before the nineteen-eighties - pronounced as in English "they".
> 
> 
> Linni, have you _read _or _heard _it?


 
I read it... I just can't remember where, at the moment... It seems to me it was a story about a man and his servant... 
And it read "ei", not "ey" (I am sure about it).


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## gaer

Kajjo said:


> We have already discussed this issue here. The form of "wo...her" is non-standard, but wide-spread for "woher...".
> 
> Kajjo


According to this:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=985482&postcount=9

we never quite found out if it was always "non-standard".


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## Lykurg

Ok, then - as MrMagoo confirmed - the speaker it is not rude, but just surprised because of meeting a person he or she knows by his forename only, but not good enough to use "Du".


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:


> Old-fashioned?
> Dann mach mal einen Abstecher nach Hessen oder Sachsen, dort ist es (noch) in äußerst lebendigem Gebrauch!
> 
> Gruß
> -MrMagoo


 
Na klar! Hier wird "Ei" noch immer in dem Sinne von Erstaunen und Überraschung verwendet. Es ist vor allem bei Gesprächen mit Kindern verbreitet: "Ei, was haben wir denn da? Ja, was haben wir denn da? Ist das eine Schippe? Ei, ist das denn eine Schippe?"


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## Lykurg

Nicht zu vergessen: "Ei gugge ma do"


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## Whodunit

Lykurg said:


> Nicht zu vergessen: "Ei gugge ma do"


 
Nicht ganz. 

Ich würde hier "ey" verwenden, und in diesem Zusammenhang klänge es nicht "rude".


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## MrMagoo

"Ei verbibbsch!!"


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## Linni

Lykurg said:


> Nicht zu vergessen: "Ei gugge ma do"


 
What is it?


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## Whodunit

Linni said:


> What is it?


 
In standard German: "Ei, guck/sieh mal dort." (Hey, look over there!)


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## Paskovich

*Where* do you come *from*?
*Wo* kommen Sie *her*?

*Where from* do you come?
*Woher* kommen Sie?


Ich würde nun einfach mal sagen, dass im Deutschen und im Englischen in dieser Hinsicht die "Interrogativpronomen + Präpositionen" ganz ähnlich verwendet werden.

In meinem Grammatikbuch steht, dass die Form, in der "die Präposition hinter dem Verb bzw. dessen Objekt" steht, die umgangssprachliche Variante ist und die andere "nur in gewählter Ausdrucksweise anzutreffen" ist.

Aber das wird vielleicht nicht mehr ganz so aktuell sein, da mein Buch 1967 in der DDR gedruckt wurde(hat damals noch 3 Mark gekostet!).

Offenbar ist die laut dem Buch umgangssprachliche Variante die Vorherrschende. Ich habe es jedenfalls noch nie irgendwo anders als so gehört(in Englisch).


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## Whodunit

Paskovich, das hatte ich schon mal so versucht zu erklären, allerdings wurde mir hier von Elroy widersprochen.


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## MrMagoo

Paskovich said:


> Aber das wird vielleicht nicht mehr ganz so aktuell sein, da mein Buch 1967 in der DDR gedruckt wurde(hat damals noch 3 Mark gekostet!).


 
Welches Buch ist das denn, wenn ich mal fragen darf... 

Gruß
-MrMagoo


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## Paskovich

Es heißt "Kurze englische Sprachlehre" und wie ich gerade feststelle, wurde es wohl doch eher 1986 gedruckt.
Es steht auf der 2. Seite:

Ausgabe 1967


Daher bin ich auch auf dieses Jahr gekommen.
Allerdings steht eine Seite vorher eben "Volk und Wissen, Volkseigener Verlag Berlin 1986".
Also wurde es wohl 1986 neuaufgelegt.


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## MrMagoo

Paskovich said:


> Es heißt "Kurze englische Sprachlehre" und wie ich gerade feststelle, wurde es wohl doch eher 1986 gedruckt.
> Es steht auf der 2. Seite:
> 
> Ausgabe 1967
> 
> 
> Daher bin ich auch auf dieses Jahr gekommen.
> Allerdings steht eine Seite vorher eben "Volk und Wissen, Volkseigener Verlag Berlin 1986".
> Also wurde es wohl 1986 neuaufgelegt.


 

Vielleicht sollte ich mal Ausschau halten, ob ich es nicht noch irgendwo antiquarisch finden kann.

In der DDR gab's doch nur volkseigene Verlage bzw. Betriebe...?! :s

Danke nochmals und Gruß an Herrn Ribbeck... *hehe*
-MrMagoo


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## Haribo

Lykurg said:


> Genau andersherum, Sepia: Das "Hamburger Sie" kombiniert "Sie" mit dem Vornamen. _"Lars, wären Sie so freundlich, ..."
> _Der Threadtitel entspricht dem "Hamburger Sie".



Hab zwar noch nie was vom "Hamburger Sie" gehört, aber Vorname plus Siezen ist auch die ganz normale Ansprache vom Lehrer in der Oberstufe.
Der Lehrer wird dagegen mit "Herr ...." angesprochen.


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## Linni

Paskovich said:


> *Where* do you come *from*?
> *Wo* kommen Sie *her*?
> 
> *Where from* do you come?
> *Woher* kommen Sie?
> 
> 
> Ich würde nun einfach mal sagen, dass im Deutschen und im Englischen in dieser Hinsicht die "Interrogativpronomen + Präpositionen" ganz ähnlich verwendet werden.
> 
> In meinem Grammatikbuch steht, dass die Form, in der "die Präposition hinter dem Verb bzw. dessen Objekt" steht, die umgangssprachliche Variante ist und die andere "nur in gewählter Ausdrucksweise anzutreffen" ist.
> 
> Aber das wird vielleicht nicht mehr ganz so aktuell sein, da mein Buch 1967 in der DDR gedruckt wurde(hat damals noch 3 Mark gekostet!).
> 
> Offenbar ist die laut dem Buch umgangssprachliche Variante die Vorherrschende. Ich habe es jedenfalls noch nie irgendwo anders als so gehört(in Englisch).


 
I don't understand German very well . Do you mean that *Where from* do you come? is standard English? It seems quite weird to me...
You were probably speaking about something completely different, weren't you? I wouldn't wonder - my German is so bad that it's quite difficult for me to translate such texts about languages....


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## Jana337

Linni said:


> I don't understand German very well . Do you mean that *Where from* do you come? is standard English? It seems quite weird to me...


No, it was just a literal translation that should have helped you grasp the structure of the German sentence. 

Jana


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## amy27

Sepia wrote
What puzzles me is the formal "Sie" together with "Hans". This is unusual in German - however, sometimes used among people of occupations with a very "French flair" to them. Fashion Design, Stylists etc.

I do not agree that this is unusual in German. It is used in semi-professional situations, for example at uni between lectures and students. A lecturer might say: "Stefanie, ich habe Ihre Hausarbeit noch nicht erhalten." If the lecturer used Stefanie's last name, this would be strange for the other students because they use each others first name. If the lecturer used 'Du', this would be inappropriate regarding the professional relationship between lecturer and student.
At highscholl in Germany the teachers also used our first name + Sie in the last grades.


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## gaer

Jana337 said:


> No, it was just a literal translation that should have helped you grasp the structure of the German sentence.
> 
> Jana


And "whence" means either "where from" or "from where".

"Whence come you?" is older English and parallels German. So the similarity between English and German is again clear.

Gaer


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## Paskovich

Jana337 said:


> No, it was just a literal translation that should have helped you grasp the structure of the German sentence.
> 
> Jana



To be frankly, it was not supposed to be a literal translation, actually. Even though it seems to be nothing else in the end. 

As I said I found this in my GDR grammar book with the following examples:

Colloquial:

*What* are you writing *with*?
*Which* of your friends is this letter *from*?
*Who *are you typing this letter *for*?

Elevated:

*With what *are you writing?
*From which* of your friends is this letter.
*For whom *are you typing this letter?


But as I´m noticing now, after this pattern the sentence should be like this:

*From where *do you come?


Is it still wrong, does it still sound weird, have I deduced it the wrong way?


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## Jana337

> Is it still wrong, does it still sound weird, have I deduced it the wrong way?


No, everything's fine now, but "where from do you come?" wasn't, so I thought it was meant to be a literal translation. 

Jana


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## Whodunit

amy27 said:


> At highscholl in Germany the teachers also used our first name + Sie in the last grades.


 
Not everywhere. I'm now new in 11th grade (11. Klasse) and most teachers still ask if we'd prefer "du" or "Sie." Unfortunately, the majority voted for "du."


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:


> Not everywhere. I'm now new in 11th grade (11. Klasse) and most teachers still ask if we'd prefer "du" or "Sie." Unfortunately, the majority voted for "du."


 

Really?? I remember only our English teacher really went on using "Du" - but this was more or less meaningless, esp. when we were talking in English... 

Most teachers though changed to the formal "Sie" (+ first name).


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## Paskovich

Well it simply depends on the teacher, no matter where, I guess.


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:


> Really?? I remember only our English teacher really went on using "Du" - but this was more or less meaningless, esp. when we were talking in English...


 
Well, I will see what happens in French: tu or vous? 



> Most teachers though changed to the formal "Sie" (+ first name).


 
I hoped that our "new" teachers (those who don't know us from the lower grades on) would use "Sie," but many classmates _demanded_ to be addressed informally.


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## Linni

I just have another question about "woher".

Someone (I don't remember who) here said that "woher" is just a compound of "wo" and "her" - such as wofür, dafür, woran etc.

*Woher *kommst du? 
Ich komme *aus* Berlin.

Why don't you say "WORAUS", then (instead of woher)?


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## gaer

Whodunit said:


> I hoped that our "new" teachers (those who don't know us from the lower grades on) would use "Sie," but many classmates _demanded_ to be addressed informally.


Do you have any idea why they chose this form of address?

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:


> Do you have any idea why they chose this form of address?


 
Simply because they want to feel "more familiar" with the new teacher. They just don't like to keep their distance from teachers. What a strange attitude.


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