# Naming and reality: slug/snail, schaar/ scissorS, ...



## ThomasK

I started a thread at AL about the above, but I would like to know how one describes the question precisely and where the topic has been dealt with in linguistics/ semantics...

Is it simply the variety of perceptions that leads to the various names/referents? 

And in that connection: do the various names of watches and clocks refer to the same thing? One reality but perceived differently? My feeling/ hunch is that the similarity is simply recognized and the various words are simply more specific, whereas snails/ slugs is a matter of a different perception of reality (related or not?)....


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## se16teddy

You may be interested in this article: Blue–green distinction in language - Wikipedia

Colour is an interesting example because there is a complex but scientifically measurable component to the distinctions made. (It isn't all science and wavelength though - I think that Irish and Scots Gaelic, for example, make some colour distinctions on the basis of whether the colour is man-made or part of the natural environment.)


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## ThomasK

That is an interesting idea indeed. Now, I just thought of the sky: it is often blue, but then I wonder whether not everyone will call it blue. I suppose in some cases it is very hard to distinguish what exactly the referent/... is referring to, I suppose, as is also suggested by the Wiki article!


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## Olaszinhok

ThomasK said:


> it is often blue, but then I wonder whether not everyone will call it blue


The sky is generally *azzurro *_or_* celeste* (light blue) in Italian, the _blu_ colour does exist but it is definitely darker than  *azzurro *or* celeste*.


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## Penyafort

Olaszinhok said:


> The sky is generally *azzurro *_or_* celeste* (light blue) in Italian, the _blu_ colour does exist but it is definitely darker than  *azzurro *or* celeste*.


But do Italians really see them as two colours or as two hues of one? I say that because we have _atzur _and _celeste _in Catalan too and, granted, they're rather literary and everybody says _blau _for the sky, but atzur and celeste would be just regarded as light hues of _blau_. And even if azzurro is common in Italian, well, _nel blu dipinto di blu_ ♫... 

And I'd pose the very same question to Russians with синий and голубой.

This said, yes, the different appreciation of colours by language is an interesting complex matter in itself.


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## Olaszinhok

Penyafort said:


> _blau _for the sk


As far as I know, in Catalan _blau _is used much more frequently than Italian _blu._ Both _azzurro _and _celeste_ are pretty common in Italian. Personally, I see them as two colours. For instance,  _blu_ is the colour of the sky at night when it is clear. However,  technically they should be  different hues of the same colour: _celeste, azzurro, blu o turchino_.


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## Awwal12

Penyafort said:


> But do Italians really see them as two colours or as two hues of one?


Two separate colors in Russian, golubóy (shades from light blue to light bluish cyan) and síniy (dark blue). Of course, they're potentially overlapping, but certainly neither is a shade of the other.


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## Perseas

Penyafort said:


> But do Italians really see them as two colours or as two hues of one? I say that because we have _atzur _and _celeste _in Catalan too and, granted, they're rather literary and everybody says _*blau *_*for the sky*, but atzur and celeste would be just regarded as light hues of _blau_.


In Greek, the cloudless sky (ανέφελος ουρανός) is not blue (μπλε), it's light blue (γαλάζιος).
So, we have a word for each colour. But we can also say "ανοιχτό μπλε" ("light blue") to mean "γαλάζιο".


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## Linnets

In Italian:
█ _celeste < _Latin_ caelestis_ 'related to the sky, heavenly'
█ _azzurro _< Persian_ lāžward _'lapis lazuli'
█ _blu _< Germanic *_blawo_ 'pale, of the colour of clear sky'
█ _turchese_ < Old French (_pierre_) _turqueise_ 'Turkish (stone)'


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## Olaszinhok

Linnets said:


> n Italian:
> █ _celeste < _Latin_ caelestis_ 'related to the sky, heavenly'
> █ _azzurro _< Persian_ lāžward _'lapis lazuli'
> █ _blu _< Germanic *_blawo_ 'pale, of the colour of clear sky'
> █ _turchese_ < Old French (_pierre_) _turqueise_ 'Turkish (stone)'


Treccani also distinguishes between_ *cielo azzurro *_during the day and* cielo blu o turchino *at night if it is clear. 
blu in Vocabolario - Treccani


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## ThomasK

Interesting extra distinctions. Just wondering then: is there an overarching kind of "blue" or do you have to choose one of those four options, or five?

Another suggestion perhaps: in how many cases can you refer to *a key *when there is no real/ genuine [door] key involved? [I suppose the door key is the first meaning...] In Dutch we could refer to 
- a beer key (to open up bottles), to 
- music keys [such as "'In the key of life" (Stevie Wonder)], but also to
- a _ringsleutel _for car mechanics (see picture  below) and of course also to 
- clues  [helping to solve mysteries, whereas I think it is a metaphor historically, but English does make a lexical distinction, _clue _vs. _key_, whereas strictly speaking both mean the same: _clé _= _key_/]...


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## Linnets

In Italian:

(door) key _chiave_;
beer key _apribottiglie_;
music key _chiave musicale_;
spanner/wrench _chiave _(_meccanica_);
clues _indizi_.


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## Hulalessar

ThomasK said:


> Is it simply the variety of perceptions that leads to the various names/referents?



Language involves classification. There are an infinite number of phenomena and there has to be a limit to the classification. Up to a point, how the classification is made depends on what speakers want and need to say.

Botanists have lot of words to describe leaves - see here: Glossary of leaf morphology - Wikipedia. The fact that botanists have all these words does not prevent non-botanists from appreciating the wide variety of leaf shapes. If someone unfamiliar with botanical terminology wants to describe a particular leaf he can do so using ordinary language.

To most of us a door is a door. To my father who was a carpenter each part of a door and its frame had a name.

The above may be extreme cases, but everyday life varies from place to place. People have the language they need according to what they need to talk about and what is important to them. There is though going to be some arbitrariness. In English we distinguish between "upside-down", "back-to-front" and "inside-out". Other languages have one term to cover all three. I have an item of clothing made in Barcelona with washing instructions in English which says I should iron the garment upside-down.

Mention is made above about colours in Gaelic. Only the other day I was listening to a programme about the Celts. The speaker said that Gaelic has something like twenty words for brown. The explanation was that wealth was once measured in cattle and that it was important to be able to describe accurately the beasts you owned.


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot. This reference to (the term/concept) '*classification' *might be a very good one, helping me in my general research (obsession?). 

_Door _is an excellent example indeed. Une porte elicits quite different associations with me due to the difference deur/ poort in Dutch: a poort is a gate, but a door is not, no way. And not any opening that one could walk through is a door either. 
_It also reminds me of _*ajar*_: I am not sure if English has a perfect word for this (in Dutch: _op een kier_/ on a jar/ cier????). one student thought of the little slit between front teeth [which is a little opening as well] and referred to it as _een kier tussen de tanden_, a jar/... between the teeth. Hilariously funny for us!_

Great story about the importance of the colour brown in connection with riches...


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## apmoy70

In Greek:


_Door key_ = *«Κλειδί»* [kliˈði] (neut.) < Byzantine Greek neuter diminutive *«κλειδίον» kleidíon* of the Classical 3rd declension feminine noun *«κλείς» kleís* (nom. sinɡ.), *«κλειδός» kleidós* (ɡen. sinɡ.).
_Beer key_ = *«Ανοιχτήρι»* [aniˈxtiɾi] (neut.) --> lit. _opener_ < Byzantine Greek neuter noun *«ἀνοικτήριον» anoiktḗrion* (idem) < Byzantine Greek v. *«ἀνοίγω» anoíɡō* --> _to open_ < Classical athematic v. *«ἀνοίγνυμι» ănoíɡnŭmĭ*.
_Music key_ = *«Μουσικό κλειδί»* [mus̠iˈko̞ kliˈði] (both neut.).
_Spanner/wrench_ = *«Κλειδί»* [kliˈði] (neut.).
_Clue(s)_ = *«Στοιχείο, -α»* [s̠tiˈçi.o̞] (neut. nom. sing.), [s̠tiˈçi.a] (neut. nom. pl.) --> _(chemical) element(s), component(s), font(s) in free-standing/alphabetical form, clue(s)_ < Classical deverbative neut. noun *«στοιχεῖον» stoikʰeîŏn* (idem) < Classical v. *«στοιχέω/στοιχῶ» stoikʰéō* (uncontracted)/*stoiʰkô* (contracted) --> _to form a row, to stand in file and rank, to match, agree, be content, follow_ (PIE *stei̯gʰ- _to stride_ cf Proto-Germanic *stikaną > Ger. stechen, Dt. steken, *staigriz > Eng. stair, Dt. steiger; Proto-Slavic *stignǫti > Rus. постигнуть, OCS постигнѫти > BCS stignuti/стигнути).


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## ThomasK

I see I have not had too many answers referring to the concrete question I "launched" in #11, but I quite understand. I repeat it here, with the answers for Italian: 



Linnets said:


> In Italian:
> 
> (door) key _chiave_;
> beer key _apribottiglie_;
> music key _chiave musicale_;
> spanner/wrench _chiave _(_meccanica_);
> clues _indizi_.


What I notice so far is that 

- the beer key is not always called a key
- the key metaphors for indications seems to be less common too


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## Forero

ThomasK said:


> I see I have not had too many answers referring to the concrete question I "launched" in #11, but I quite understand. I repeat it here, with the answers for Italian:
> 
> 
> What I notice so far is that
> 
> - the beer key is not always called a key
> - the key metaphors for *clue*s seems to be less common too


"Indications" means "clues" in French, but not in English.


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## ThomasK

I wondered about that, but thought of "I have no *clue*", and I now find a list here showing how "clue" is used as some kind of indication. But I suppose you mean that one cannot use "clé" in French in that meaning. I was walking with French-speaking friends recently and we talked about "indices" proving that we were on the right track.

But I suddenly realize: you are referring to "*indications*" as opposed to the French "*indices*", I guess. Those are false friends...


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