# Macedonian: Possessive pronouns



## cr00mz

I Have a question about possessive pronouns.

_My House _is _Mojata Kuk´a_, but can you also say _Kuk´ata mi?_


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## DarkChild

Yes, you can.


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## cr00mz

Is there some kind of restriction to how those pronouns work? Cases where they do not work, and you instead have to use the other ones (_Mojot, Mojata, Moeto, Moite _etc._)_


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## Arath

Since no native speaker of Macedonian has replied, I'll explain how things are in Bulgarian:

*
Ми *is invariable and is put after the noun. *Моят, моята, моето, моите* are the definite forms of the following indefinite possessive pronouns: *мой* (masculine), *моя* (feminine), *мое* (neuter), *мои* (plural). They are put in front of the noun and have to agree in gender and number with the thing being possessed. Just like the Swedish *min*/*mitt*/*mina*: 

*Моят приятел = приятелят ми* (my male friend)
*Моята приятелка = приятелката ми* (my female friend)
*Моето приятелство = приятелството ми* (my friendship)
*Моите приятели = приятелите ми* (my friends)

In Bulgarian and Macedonian, we can use both a definite article and a possessive adjective (in English you can't say "the my friend") depending on the definiteness of the noun phrase. A noun phrase can have only one definite article which is put on the first word of the phrase that can have articles. That's why in *моят приятел* the definite article is on the possessive pronoun and in *приятелят ми* the definite article is on the noun. Generally, you can't use *ми* with an indefinite noun phrase. so you can't say "*приятел ми*" without a definite article (there are exceptions: *жена ми*, *сестра ми*). So *моят приятел* or *приятелят ми* means "my friend", and *мой приятел* means "a friend of mine". I'm not going to go into details about when to use or not use the definite article because there are some exceptions, especially with kinship term, and there may be differences between Macedonian and Bulgarian.


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## Vulcho

In Macedonian you can use these only with family relations. For example, you can say "majka mi", but not "kukjata mi".


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## iobyo

Indicating possession with dative clitics and a noun phrase is ungrammatical. However, as Vulcho pointed out, they are permitted (postnominally) but only with kinship terms:
Bulgarian: _това са книгите ми_ ("these are my books")
Macedonian: _ова се моите книги_, not *_ова се книгите ми_​
Bulgarian: _къде_ _е майка ми? _or even _къде_ _е майката ми?_ ("where is my mother?")
Macedonian: _каде е мајка ми? _or _каде е мојата мајка?_, not *_каде е мајката ми?_​
Bulgarian: _приятелят ми_ ("my friend")
Macedonian: _мојот пријател_, not *_пријателот ми_​​This book has a lot on the subject. There are also many articles floating around the net which I could link you to in a PM, if you'd like.


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## Arath

Since in all of the examples you've given, the noun phrase is the subject of the sentence how about these:

*Той ми открадна шапката*. - He stole my hat.
*Той ми седна на мястото*. - He sat on my seat.

Are such constructions allowed in Macedonian?


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## cr00mz

Does the moj vs mojot have the same meaning as in Bulgarian? moj being " a friend of mine" and mojot "my friend"?

@Iobyo about the articles, yeah sure PM me, if it's not too much trouble


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## jazyk

> Are such constructions allowed in Macedonian?


I would say these constructions exist in all, or at least most, Slavic and Romance languages.


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## Christo Tamarin

iobyo said:


> Bulgarian: _къде е майка ми? _or even _къде е майката ми?_ ("where is my mother?")
> Macedonian: _каде е мајка ми? _or _каде е мојата мајка?_, not *_каде е мајката ми?_​


In Bulgarian, _къде е майката ми?_ is wrong.

Only in some special contexts of swearwords, you can hear _майката ми._


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## Christo Tamarin

cr00mz said:


> Does the moj vs mojot have the same meaning as in Bulgarian? moj being " a friend of mine" and mojot "my friend"?


Yes.


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## Christo Tamarin

Arath said:


> Since in all of the examples you've given, the noun phrase is the subject of the sentence how about these:
> 
> *Той ми открадна шапката*. - He stole my hat.
> *Той ми седна на мястото*. - He sat on my seat.
> 
> Are such constructions allowed in Macedonian?


Yes, I believe.

However, the sentence 


Arath said:


> *Той ми открадна шапката*.


 is influenced by Church Slavonic or Russian. The true Slavo-balkanic expression should be *Той ми я открадна шапката.*


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## DarkChild

Christo Tamarin said:


> In Bulgarian, _къде е майката ми?_ is wrong.
> 
> Only in some special contexts of swearwords, you can hear _майката ми._


But with any other noun, it's fine.


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## iobyo

Yes.



Arath said:


> *Той ми открадна шапката*.



_Тој ми го украде шеширот._
_Тој го украде мојот шешир._



Arath said:


> *Той ми седна на мястото*.



_Тој ми седна на местото.
Тој седна на моето место.

_As a side question, would _майка ми ми е__ майка _be acceptable Bulgarian? It sounds very natural (at least grammatically) in Macedonian, but always avoided for stylistic reasons.


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## osemnais

grammatically is correct, but why would you ever say that? you would say something like майка ми ми каза, че .....


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## Arath

So, in Macedonian possession can also be expressed with the dative pronouns (as well as the regular possessive pronouns), but only with kinship terms can they be put after the noun (*сестра ми*, *брат ми*). In all other cases they stand in front of the verb (*ми седна*, *ми го украде*). How about body parts? For example if somebody stepped on your foot, in Bulgarian we would say "*ох, кракът ми*", not "*ох, моят крак*". Or if somebody poked you in the eye - "*ох, очите ми*", not "*ох, моите очи*". How do you say in Macedonian - *ногата ми/моjата нога*, *очите ми/моите очи*.


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## cr00mz

So saying, _"moj prijatel Filip"_, means "a friend of mine named Filip"? and "mojot prijatel Filip" my (a specific) friend Filip?


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## Arath

Yes, something just rather like that:

*Разговарях с един мой приятел Филип*. - I talked with a friend of mine named Filip.
*Разговарях с моя приятел Филип*. - I talked with my friend Filip.


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## cr00mz

OK, thanks for all the help.


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## Gnoj

I'll try to simplify it for ya:


both Macedonian and Bulgarian for family relations (male and female gender only):

Mac: mojot brat / Bul: mojat brat = brat mi (my brother)
both: mojata majka = majka mi (my mother)


for all other (non-family) cases Bulgarian only:

mojat shef = shefat mi (my boss) male gender
mojata masa = masata mi (my table) female gender
moeto mjasto = mjastoto mi (my place) middle gender
moite neshta = neshtata mi (my things) plural

for all other (non-family) cases both Macedonian and Bulgarian (disregarding the differences like mojot-mojat):
mojot shef (my boss)
mojata masa (my table)
moeto mesto (my place)
moite neshta (my things)


both Macedonian and Bulgarian:
In cases like "Brat mi mi kazha" the two mi's have different meaning. The simplest way to explain is:
Brat mi mi kazha = My brother told me.
Brat mi mi kazha na mene = My brother told (to) me.
Mojot brat mi kazha na mene = My brother told (to) me.

So:
[Mac/Bul] mojot/mi = my [Eng]
[Mac/Bul] na mene/mi = (to) me [Eng]


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## cr00mz

How about what Arath asked, about body parts? How does it work in Macedonian?

I've heard stuff like, nogata mi e skršena, grbot mi boli or očite mi češa, is that standard or dialect macedonian?


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## Gnoj

cr00mz said:


> How about what Arath asked, about body parts? How does it work in Macedonian?
> 
> I've heard stuff like, nogata mi e skršena, grbot mi boli or očite mi češa, is that standard or dialect macedonian?



It is both standard and spoken (dialect) Macedonian, there's no other way to say it*. The literal translation of "Nogata mi e skršena" is "The leg hurts me"/"The leg pains me", or translated into regular English "My leg hurts". Same thing for "grbot me boli" and "očite me češaat". Here's an easy way to determine whether the "mi" stands for "my" or "me":

Tatko mi ti e lut = My father is mad at you
Tatko ti mi e lut = Your father is mad at me

*It's not "očite mi češa" but "očite me češaat". There's a difference between "me" and "mi".
**Note that present simple tense and present continuous tense in Macedonian (and in Bulgarian and probably in all the other Slavic languages) look exactly the same, so "Grbot me boli" could mean both "My back hurt*s*" and "My back *is* hurt*ing* me", depending on the context.


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## Arath

How about *Грбот ми ме боли* and *Очите ми ме чешаат*? In Bulgarian, the *ми* is redundant and in reality we say them without it, but nevertheless such examples are grammatically correct. It's analogous to *майка ми ми каза*. I was quite surprised to learn that in Macedonian you don't use the short dative pronouns to express possession in the same way as we do and I'm still not entirely convinced of the fact. Here are some examples from song lyrics:

рацете да си одморам
душата да си одморам 
на срце ми пишува
во очите ми гори оган

Are such construction allowed only in song lyrics or are they standard?


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## iobyo

Arath said:
			
		

> How about *Грбот ми ме боли* and *Очите ми ме чешаат*?



They're ungrammatical.



			
				Arath said:
			
		

> рацете да си одморам
> душата да си одморам
> на срце ми пишува
> во очите ми гори оган



The first two need _ги_ and _ја_, respectively. So they would be substandard (i.e. dialectal) but still more or less acceptable. The last two are fine, but they're not the same as *_гори оган во очите ми_, for example. What I mean to say is that the short pronouns (_ми_, _си_, etc.) belong to the verbs in these examples — I don't know how to explain it grammatically.


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## iobyo

iobyo said:


> The first two need _ги_ and _ја_, respectively. So they would be substandard (i.e. dialectal) but still more or less acceptable. The last two are fine, but they're not the same as *_гори оган во очите ми_, for example. What I mean to say is that the short pronouns (_ми_, _си_, etc.) belong to the verbs in these examples — I don't know how to explain it grammatically.



It seems the same in BCS: ex. _vatra mi gori u očima_, _na/u srcu mi piše_, etc.

For those who are still interested, here's an excerpt from _Граматика на македонскиот јазик_, Koneski:



> *218.*
> [...]
> *4.* The short [pronominal] forms for the dative object [i.e. indirect object] are the most typical way of expressing possession with kinship terms: _татко ми _['my father'], _брат ви _['your (pl.) brother'], _сестра им_ ['their sister'], _зет му_ ['his in-law'], _братучед му_ ['his cousin'] and so on. The form _си_ in such cases refers to the subject freely of grammatical person: _Митрејца не го виде сина си _['Mitrejca (Mitre's wife) didn't see her son'] (V. Maleski); one could also say: _јас не го видов сина си_ ['I didn't see my son']. However, the use of this form must be considered incorrect when the word which has been ascribed possession is not the subject of the sentence.
> 
> As one can see, the nouns here are not inflected for definiteness. But, in addition to _маж ми_, _жена ми_, one also finds inflected forms such as _мажот ми _['my husband'], _жената ми _['my wife']. Cf. _жената му оддесно_ ['his wife on the right'], _сестра му одлево_ ['his sister on the left'] [...] (M. Cepenkov) [...] even when used unaccompanied and with the same connotation of kinship, they are inflected for definiteness: _жената _['the woman'] (мојата жена ['my wife']), _мажот _['the man'] (мојот маж ['my husband']) [...] The short pronominal forms, apart from [their use] with kinship terms, may be encountered in a possessive meaning with a few other nouns that denote a person in a particularly close relationship with someone. Such is the case in these examples from Cepenkov: _со другара ти _['with your pal', nowadays substandard] [...]
> 
> The intactments such as _татко ми_, _мајка ми_ are so bound that often in folk speech pronominal adjectives are attached to intensify, to renew the sense of possession: _татко ми мој_, _мајка ми моја_. [...]
> 
> 5. Outside of this group of words, this kind of use of pronominal forms isn't common in our literary language, although one can sometimes encounter these compounds with other words (primarily in poetry: _Ораме со рало / Но земјата ни златна_ _/ Колку е богата!_ _— Со страдна душа чека / Ударите ни јаки. — _K. Racin). One cannot say, for example: _капата ми_, _палтото му_, but only: _мојата капа_, _неговото палто. _But even in these cases, possession can be often be indicated with a short pronominal form, usually with _си_, only that it then does not follow the noun: _тој си ја зеде капата_ (i.e. [_тој ја зеде_]_ својата капа_) […] the nuance of belonging in the meaning of the pronoun here does not cause us to understand it as a means of expressing intimacy towards what has been communicated, in fact the pronoun here binds with the subject and not the verb.


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## cr00mz

Does "grbot mi me boli" and "grbot me boli" mean the same thing in Bulgarian?


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## Duya

iobyo said:


> It seems the same in BCS: ex. _vatra mi gori u očima_, _na/u srcu mi piše_, etc.



Yes, that's practically the only way how we use possessive dative. In BCS, it is ungrammatical to attach the dative to the noun: *_ovo je majka mi_. 

It is possible that it survived1 attached to nouns only in set phrases such as _majke mi_! ("I swear on my mother's").

1) of course, it could "survive" only if the construction originates from the same source as Bulgarian/Macedonian one


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## DarkChild

cr00mz said:


> Does "grbot mi me boli" and "grbot me boli" mean the same thing in Bulgarian?


Yes.


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## cr00mz

You said that in Bulgarian you can say this sentence with and without the "mi". Does then "Grbot ti me boli" mean "Your back is hurting me"?


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## DarkChild

cr00mz said:


> You said that in Bulgarian you can say this sentence with and without the "mi". Does then "Grbot ti me boli" mean "Your back is hurting me"?


That's what it means but it makes no sense.


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## iobyo

cr00mz said:


> You said that in Bulgarian you can say this sentence with and without the "mi". Does then "Grbot ti me boli" mean "Your back is hurting me"?



This reminds me of baby talk, ex. _грбот ми те боли?_ ('your back hurts?'). The _ми_ here is only an intensifier though. I'm guessing BCS and Bulgarian might use this construction too; I've seen _kako si mi?_ in BCS (Macedonian: _како ми си?_).


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## cr00mz

@DarkChild

Well if someone is lying in top of you, perhaps someone fat, his back is hurting you because he is so heavy. But yes a kind of stupid sentence.

would that sentence then be "tvojot grb me boli?" in macedonian.


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## Duya

iobyo said:


> This reminds me of baby talk, ex. _грбот ми те боли?_ ('your back hurts?'). The _ми_ here is only an intensifier though. I'm guessing BCS and Bulgarian might use this construction too; I've seen _kako si mi?_ in BCS (Macedonian: _како ми си?_).



Confirmed, from BCS standpoint. I could even imagine, albeit slightly contrived, a mom asking her child _jel' mi te boli noga_?


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## iobyo

cr00mz said:


> @DarkChild
> 
> Well if someone is lying in top of you, perhaps someone fat, his back is hurting you because he is so heavy. But yes a kind of stupid sentence.
> 
> would that sentence then be "tvojot grb me boli?" in macedonian.



Your sentence would mean "your back is hurting me?". As strange as it sounds, it is nevertheless grammatically correct.

"Your back is hurting you?" is _твојот грб те боли? _or _грбот те боли?_. You can even emphasize if it's actually the *interlocutor's* back or actually their *back* that is hurting by saying _тебе грбот те боли? _and _грбот тебе те боли_, respectively. As a side note, and as you probably already know, that with the right intonation the particle _ли _and/or conjunction _дали_ are not mandatory here.


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## DarkChild

cr00mz said:


> @DarkChild
> 
> Well if someone is lying in top of you, perhaps someone fat, his back is hurting you because he is so heavy. But yes a kind of stupid sentence.


No, in that case you have to say Гърбът ти ми причинява болка (Your back is causing me pain).


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## Gnoj

Cr00mz, not disregarding the great similarity between Macedonian and Bulgarian, there are still certain differences between them.


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## iobyo

Gnoj said:


> Cr00mz, not disregarding the great similarity between Macedonian and Bulgarian, there are still certain differences between them.



Especially so in diction; a simple expression such as this one would immediately be felt to be stilted with _причинува_.


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## Gnoj

iobyo said:


> Especially so in diction; a simple expression such as this one would immediately be felt to be stilted with _причинува_.



Well, in this case they would be right. "Причинява" in Bulgarian is in fact "причинува" in Macedonian: Гърбът ти / Твоят гръб ми причинява болка = Твојот грб ми причинува болка. In this particular example the biggest difference is visual due to the different scripts that Macedonian and Bulgarian use. You seem to be fairly familiar with these languages, you even use Cyrillic letters. I'm curious about the story behind that and where you're from.


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## bibily

no you can't, Мојата Куќа, Куќата ми Is a dialect and colloquial use of some dialects


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## bibily

no you can't, Мојата Куќа, Куќата ми Is a dialect and colloquial use of some dialects


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