# Have you -p.p. / Did you



## cheshire

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> *Have* you *seen* the latest film by Algernon Q. Gore? _Casual inquiry.
> _*Did* you *go* to the concert last night? _Specific inquiry about a particular action._


Am I guessing correctly? For the former pattern, you use two 了s, one after the verb, one after the sentence. For the latter, you use one 了 immediately after the verb.

Or is my above guess is wrong, and the former also covers "one-了 clause"?
http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=2590312&postcount=41


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## daoxunchang

You can say the first sentence without any 了: 你看过Algernon Q. Gore最新的那部电影吗？
With one or two 了, "你看过/了Algernon Q. Gore最新的那部电影了吗?" sounds to me as if the speaker expects the person he's speaking to is likesly to have watched the film, because the film is new or good, or that he himself likes it so much that he is eager to share.
For the sencond one: yes, it's inquiry about a particular event.
你昨天去音乐会了吗？with 了 at the end before 吗. 
了 immediately after the verb? I think "你昨天去了音乐会了吗？" and "你昨天去了音乐会吗？" are both possible. With 去 emphasised, you can express some kind of doubt and it would sound like an interrogation. But of course you can say them mildly and without any implication.
Can you give me the Chinese sentence of your guess?


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## I_like_my_TV

I may be wrong, but I think _"Have you seen the latest film by Algernon Q. Gore?"_ may be more naturally rendered with just one 了:
Algernon Q. Gore最新的那部电影，你看（过）了吗？


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## Lugubert

My grammars give me the impression that 过 and 了 are mutually exclusive, in stressing the difference between them.


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## I_like_my_TV

> My grammars give me the impression that 过 and 了 are mutually exclusive


You will be very surprised to see the number of the combination "过 了" you'd get through google  . That, however, does not automatically mean the sentence I suggested is correct. I did say "I may be wrong" and hoped that some good Chinese native speakers might say something about it.


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## daoxunchang

I_like_my_TV said:


> I may be wrong, but I think _"Have you seen the latest film by Algernon Q. Gore?"_ may be more naturally rendered with just one 了:
> Algernon Q. Gore最新的那部电影，你看（过）了吗？


Hmm, I don't think so. "你看过吗？" , "你看了吗" and "你看过了吗？" both sound natural to me, but the last two would suggest to me that the speaker may have the idea that the film is one that most people would go to watch. 
hmm, yes, I won't use the first one for a very very latest film. It's used for films that have come out for quite a time.


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## samanthalee

daoxunchang said:


> Hmm, I don't think so. "你看过吗？" , "你看了吗" and "你看过了吗？" both sound natural to me, but the last two would suggest to me that the speaker may have the idea that the film is one that most people would go to watch.
> hmm, yes, I won't use the first one for a very very latest film. It's used for films that have come out for quite a time.


 
Yes, Daoxunchang is right.

To further illustrate, "你看过吗？" would translate into "Have you ever seen...?"
For example, "你看过鸭嘴兽吗？" "Have you ever seen a platypus?"

"你看了吗？" = "Have you seen...yet?".
Eg "你看了成龙最新的电影吗？" "Have you seen Jackie Chan's latest movie?"(The statement implies that, I expect you to want to watch it, if you haven't done so already.)

"你看过了吗？" = “Have you seen...?"
Eg. "《铁达尼号》你看过了吗？" "Have you seen Titanic?" (The statement implies that, if you haven't, I'll recommend you to watch it.)

Hope the examples makes things clearer to you.


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## cheshire

Thanks!
Then there is no difference between  看了and 看过了?


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## daoxunchang

cheshire said:


> Thanks!
> Then there is no difference between 看了and 看过了?


No, not big difference in meaning, only the former more brisk.


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## cheshire

In other words, 过 sounds more formal, doesn't it?

谢谢，你的帮助太好了！


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## daoxunchang

Hmm, not necessarily.
Thinking more of it, I have to modify my prior words a little. 看了, with only two syllables, is certainly pithier than 看过了 which has three. However, in actually articulating them, I find the first difference is that 看过了 is more "difficult" to speak out, from 过 to 了 being a little bit awkward. I cannot and would not articulate 了 clearly. If I do, my vocal organs would find fault. I think I seldom say it. Instead, I would say "看过(的)" (most probably adding some more particles, e.g. 呢/呀). 
To speak of 过 only, I don't think it entails any formal connotation, either.
P.S. I want to comment on your "谢谢，你的帮助太好了": 谢谢你的帮助 is Ok enough. We don't say 帮助 is good. It can be collocated with "及时" meaning "timely". To say "help" is good, you can say it is "big": "你的回答对我帮助很大".


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## cheshire

谢谢再一次！ 明白了！


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## daoxunchang

I'm so ashamed to provide corrections of words thanking me.....
cheshire, say you sentence like this: 再次谢谢/感谢你


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## Senordineroman

So....the way to say, "How long have you lived in the United States" would be, “你住在美国了多少时间了？”　　This would require two "le"s, right?


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## BODYholic

ChrisCashman said:


> So....the way to say, "How long have you lived in the United States" would be, “你住在美国了多少时间了？”　　This would require two "le"s, right?



你在美国 - 住了 - 多久?
(lit: You in the USA - already stayed - how long?)

Or 你在美国住了多长的一段时间?
Or even, 你在美国住了几年?


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## Senordineroman

Ok, then tell me how you would translate these sentences:

How long _did _you live in the United States?  The person is not there anymore -- it is in the past.  

How long _have _you lived in the United States?  The person is still there and will probably continue to live there.


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## xiaolijie

> how long _did _you live in the united states? the person is not there anymore -- it is in the past.


(A modification of the sentence you provided: )
= 你在美国住了多少时间？


> how long _have _you lived in the united states? the person is still there and will probably continue to live there.


 = 你在美国住了多少时间了？


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## BODYholic

How long _did _you live in the United States? The person is not there anymore -- it is in the past.  
你曾在美国住了多久?
你曾在美国住了多长的一段时间?

How long _have _you lived in the United States?   The person is still there and will probably continue to live there.  
你在美国住了多久?
你在美国住了多长的一段时间?


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## Senordineroman

Hmmm...... 我要等等别的建议。　好像在这两句子应该有两个“了”。。。。。


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## xiaolijie

> 好像在这两句子应该有两个“了”。。。。。


Look again in post #17


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## Senordineroman

Oh yeah, xiaolijie!!  I believe YOU!  It's BODYholic's responses that I don't really trust.


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## BODYholic

chriscashman said:


> hmmm...... 我要等等别的建议。　好像在这两句子应该有两个“了”。。。。。


未必。


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## Staarkali

BODYholic said:


> 未必。


I concur.
Again, it depends on the context (as always in Chinese).
People asking me how long I have been in Shanghai never used 了， because I am in Shanghai also, right in front of them, so of course when they ask me 你住了上海几年, it's how long from here and now (the final 了 is superfluous), although I always answer 两年了，三年了.. 几年了, but then again people often repeat to confirm and omit the 了.

Further, I haven't come across often with the double 了 in casual conversations till now, maybe some native speakers can confirm or deny.


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## AVim

Scene of two '了's in which the final '了' should not be omitted:

How long have you lived in the United States? The person is still there and will probably continue to live there.

[Scene: Ming is in the USA and he is on the phone chatting with his father Mr Li who is in China, (the father is a bit angry).]
Mr Li: 你小子在美国呆了多久了?
Ming: 两年了
Mr Li: 那还不快回来, 玩够了没有.


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## BODYholic

ChrisCashman said:


> Oh yeah, xiaolijie!!  I believe YOU!  It's BODYholic's responses that I don't really trust.





> “你住在美国了多少时间了？”


Not only it is grammatically incorrect. It is incomprehensible.



> 住了多少时间


This is broken Chinese.


虽不能得到你的信任，但也麻烦你自重。


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## AVim

BODYholic said:


> 虽不能得到你的信任，但也麻烦你自重。



Ms holic 很生气，后果很严重。


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## samanthalee

Staarkali said:


> so of course when they ask me 你住了上海几年, it's how long from here and now (the final 了 is superfluous),


Oh! Is that how people in Shanghai speak? That's certainly very different from how we speak in Singapore. (That's probably why BODYholic thinks it's broken Chinese.) I would have omitted the first 了, and keep the final 了。ie "你住上海几年了". Interesting to note the difference.


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## xiaolijie

> “你住在美国了多少时间了？”


ChrisCashman is a learner, so his example above may not be correct but I must say the double "*了*" he's asking about is indeed the standard way to describe _*progress up to the present.*_ Here are some examples by native speakers, just in case anyone is in doubt：

1. 我在这干*了*二十年*了*。很想到别的单位去。
(I've been working here for 20 years and I very much want to move somewhere else for a change)
2. 这条路真长，我走*了*三个钟头*了*，才走了一半。
(This road is really long, I've been walking for 3 hours and still covered only half way)
3. 我问*了*三个人*了*，都说不知道。
(I've asked three persons and none of them knows.)
4. 我喝*了*五杯*了*，不想再喝了。
(I've drunk five glasses, so I don't want any more)


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## Staarkali

samanthalee said:


> Oh! Is that how people in Shanghai speak? That's certainly very different from how we speak in Singapore. (That's probably why BODYholic thinks it's broken Chinese.) I would have omitted the first 了, and keep the final 了。ie "你住上海几年了". Interesting to note the difference.


I asked for reference the few colleagues around me today, and they naturally said  你在上海待了多久？and one of then said a similar sentence for fun in Shanghainese, using 的 as a final particle (Shanghainese and their 的  ).

However, I wouldn't say it's how Shanghainese people speak, I heard like this a lot but the 标准 way is of course not to 删掉 the final 了 (besides recently I am surrounded by a lot of 外地人).
I think no native's Chinese is broken, being a regular on this forum for a long time now, I noticed that people often disagree on what liberty one can take from standard Chinese, and often that's because people comes from various part of the world (北方，南方，西安，上海，台外，新加坡。。）.


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## BODYholic

xiaolijie said:


> so his example above may not be correct but I must say the double "*了*" he's asking about is indeed the standard way to describe _*progress up to the present.*_ Here are some examples by native speakers, just in case anyone is in doubt：
> 
> 1. 我在这*干了*二十年*了*。很想到别的单位去。
> (I've been working here for 20 years and I very much want to move somewhere else for a change)
> 2. 这条路真长，我*走了*三个钟头*了*，才走了一半。
> (This road is really long, I've been walking for 3 hours and still covered only half way)
> 3. 我*问了*三个人*了*，都说不知道。
> (I've asked three persons and none of them knows.)
> 4. 我*喝了*五杯*了*，不想再喝了。
> (I've drunk five glasses, so I don't want any more)



1. First thing first, I honestly do not see how his sentence resembles yours?


> “你住在*美国了*多少*时间了*？”


2. Perhaps it just a difference in opinion. "*了 ... **了*" does not sound standard Chinese to me. Yes, I have heard it even in Singapore but it came across to me as someone who is a new learner (e.g. young kids who have little command in language skill) or adult who has no formal education.

3. In case you do not know, both *了 *serve different purposes. The former is used to terminate an action, whereas the latter is used as a form of emphasis or exaggeration.
我*问了*三个人*了 
*a. The first *了* implies that the action of asking is over.
b. The second *了 *is used to impress the listener that he asked not one but THREE persons.

4. Contrary to what you believe, this does not serve to describe "_*progress up to the present*_".
我问*了*三个人*了*，都说不知道。 -> The action of 问 does not progress up to present.
我喝*了*五杯*了*，不想再喝了。 -> Ditto for 喝
In fact, only the first 了 is used to modified the verb and from that, all we know is that an action has ended. Period. Nothing more. Nothing less. Nothing else.

5. The reason that I do not recommend this sentence construction is because not only it makes reading but also pronunciation very difficult to sound clear. More importantly, it is not idiomatic, at least, from where I come from. May be Taiwan and China may have different views.

6. How do I express the same thing in an alternate (better) way?
我在这干*了*二十年*了*。很想到别的单位去。
我*已经*(在这干*了*二十年)。很想到别的单位去。

这条路真长，我走*了*三个钟头*了*，才走了一半。
这条路真长，我*已经*(走*了*三个钟头)，才走了一半。

我问*了*三个人*了*，都说不知道。
我*已经*(问*了*三个人)，都说不知道。

我喝*了*五杯*了*，不想再喝了。
我*已经*(喝*了*五杯)，不想再喝了。

In the above example, I use 已经 to emphasize on those in the brackets. This form of sentence construction also offers greater flexibility. If you are good enough, you would realize that *已经* can be inserted in other  locations within the same sentence.



xiaolijie said:


> ChrisCashman is a learner


Does not behave like one. To me, at least.


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## BODYholic

samanthalee said:


> Oh! Is that how people in Shanghai speak? That's certainly very different from how we speak in Singapore. (That's probably why BODYholic thinks it's broken Chinese.) I would have omitted the first 了, and keep the final 了。ie "你住上海几年了". Interesting to note the difference.



1. Oh the broken Chinese that I referred to was "住了*多少*时间                      ". 

2. For the case of "你住上海几年了". This is grammatically incorrect. In this case, 住 is an intransitive word verb. Hence, 上海 can not be used as an object. The correct way of saying should be 你在上海 住了 几年?

Yes, I understand many youngsters say it but it doesn't change the fact that it is grammatically challenged. This is akin to the most commonly made mistake, 我睡客厅. 
我会在客厅睡/我在客厅睡.


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## xiaolijie

> Ms holic 很生气，后果很严重。


It wasn't a wise move by her and how I wished she didn't tamper with my post (#28). The examples I quoted are perfect sentences by native speakers (A case of barking at the wrong tree!? )


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## AVim

Hi BODYholic.

您说的有道理.

两个 '了' 听起来是有点别扭, 书面语里应尽量避免. 但在口语里面若是不能避免, 偶尔用一下也没什么. 试想, 假如有个人说话总是按照语法一板一眼, 您会觉得他是native speaker么? 语言嘛, 就是表情达意的工具, 明白了意思也就达到目的了. 毕竟, 在日常生活中几乎没有人刻意遵照语法去讲话, 不是么? 我觉得, 语法不过是人们对已有的语言现象一种解释而已, 那些在现实中存在的但很难解释的语言现象, 未必是不合理的.

例如: 我就常说 "我睡客厅", 而且觉得很自然. 假如所有的人都这么说, 我们还能认为这是错的吗? 只能说语言在发展, 我们的语法里面也应该随之加入新的认识才对, 而不好简单认为这是错的吧.

所以我个人一直觉得, 与其在语法上纠缠, 到不如还原句子的真实环境,了解句子的意思, 来的实在,有用. 您说呢?

呵呵, 我是不是又犯了好为人师的毛病了, 如有冒犯, 请见谅.


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## BODYholic

您言重了。

当然，口语与书面的应用是有很大的分别的。口语讲求的是干净利落，不托泥带水。而书面要求的虽然不是咬文嚼字，但基本语法的应用，恰当性的措词都是必须的。

我也从没强调口语与书面的一致性。相信您是误解了。但不管怎么说这是个语文论坛，纠正语法不是这论坛的一项宗旨吗？身为一位初学者，应有按部就班，循序渐进的学习态度。某人就好像欠缺了那么一些。

"我睡客厅"，就是非常好的典形例子。大家都那样说，没错。但是一般华人也懂那只是口语，您说老外他能理解吗？搞不好他还把它当成一种公式。您还记得“住多少时间”吗？那是哪一国的口语说法？法国吗？(令人喷饭)

话说回来，看了读了听了想了写了背了，希望不会忘了君的一席话。

感恩。


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