# Najdi Arabic: مير



## Schem

Hi everyone,

مير (pronounced like English 'mare' or French 'mère') is a word we use in my branch of Najdi dialect to mean 'but' or 'though' and is sometimes also used as a filler. It's very common and I've been told it's one of the defining features of Gasseemi Arabic. My question is about the word's origin/derivation process (whether attested or hypothesized) and its prevalence in the region of Najd and possibly elsewhere in Arabia.

Looking forward to your contributions


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## Ghabi

Hello. Our colleague Wadi Hanifi once wrote to me some years ago the following and that may interest you: "مير is a filler word  that fulfills a variety of different functions depending on context ...  Nobody knows where it  comes from.  Some people render it مار in writing, which suggests that  that was the original form before the aleph morphed into the "ee" sound that we have today."

Bruce Ingham in his _Najdi Arabic_ (p.203) also says, "The particle _meer_ also occuring in the form _maar_ in some areas is peculiar to the Najdi dialects ..."


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## Schem

Thank you, Ghabi.



Ghabi said:


> Some people render it مار in writing, which suggests that that was the original form before the aleph morphed into the "ee" sound that we have today."



I find this interesting but I honestly don't see how it could have happened. Najdi dialects don't have a tendency for imala (like in Lebanese, for example) for this to happen. The only instance of imala that is consistent and widely known about Najdi Arabic is the weakening of the final -ah feminine marker in Gasseem to an -eh or -ih sound. I also wouldn't call it a filler word because it's used for the same purpose of 'but' or 'though' the majority of the time, as previously mentioned.


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## Hemza

See what I found about "Imala"

"Some classical Arabian tribes had a habit of        turning the vowel A into E. This is called in Arabic              إِمَاْلَةٌ        = "slanting" or              تَضَجُّعٌ = "lying-down-like"       and it happened particularly in central Arabia (Najd). For        example, they would pronounce the word _ kitaab_        = "book" as _       kitaib_       (_kitēb_).        Similar phenomena existed in other Semitic languages such as Syriac and Hebrew,        and exist in English (the pronunciation of "make,"        hate," etc.)
 
Today however, this transition is no longer        present in Arabia (except for traces) but it has moved to Levant and North        Africa".


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## Zoghbi

> Today however, this transition is no longer present in Arabia (except for traces) but it has moved to Levant *and North Africa*".



This have to be detail: indeed if this phenomenon is well established in Tunisia (and also in the East and the Oulad Nail region (Msila, Bou Saada, Djelfa, Hassi Bahbah,...) of Algeria but much less marked than in the city of Tunis) it's absolutely inexistant in the rest of Maghreb.


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## MarcB

إِمَاْلَةٌ can also be found in Chad in Africa and by some Bahrani speakers.


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## Hemza

Zoghbi said:


> This have to be detail: indeed if this phenomenon is well established in Tunisia (and also in the East and the Oulad Nail region (Msila, Bou Saada, Djelfa, Hassi Bahbah,...) of Algeria but much less marked than in the city of Tunis) it's absolutely inexistant in the rest of Maghreb.


It also exists in Mauritania and Southern Morocco (but not as much as Tunisians).


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## Schem

People, the thread is about مير not imala in Maghreb or Bahrain. 


Hemza said:


> "Some classical Arabian tribes had a habit of        turning the vowel A into E. This is called in Arabic              إِمَاْلَةٌ        = "slanting" or              تَضَجُّعٌ = "lying-down-like"       and it happened particularly in central Arabia (Najd). For        example, they would pronounce the word _ kitaab_        = "book" as _       kitaib_(_kitēb_).        Similar phenomena existed in other Semitic languages such as Syriac and Hebrew,        and exist in English (the pronunciation of "make,"        hate," etc.)
> 
> Today however, this transition is no longer        present in Arabia (except for traces) but it has moved to Levant and North        Africa".


All this seems to imply that مير/مار is an archaic word. Considering how pervasive its use is in Gasseem today, I wonder if it's at all used in other areas of Najd or if Gasseem has a tendency to preserve archaic features that perish elsewhere. Where did our other Najdi foreros go anyway? Wadi Hanifa? Ayed? Arabic Police? Lark Lover? I need your input here! 

Btw, Hamza, can you please cite the source? I'd be interested to read more.


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## Hemza

Schem said:


> People, the thread is about مير not imala in Maghreb or Bahrain.



Marra asif ya akhi 



Schem said:


> Btw, Hamza, can you please cite the source? I'd be interested to read more.



Yep, I found it really randomly, I was reading some stuff about MSA grammar and I fell on a part about "imala":

http://arabic.tripod.com/Nouns1d.htm

Go down until *"Extra Note: Modern Variations        in the feminine  -a(t)"* (sorry for my broken English ) and you'll find the text I copied-past


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## Schem

Thank you, Hamza!


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## WadiH

First thing to note is that it's not a specifically Najdi word.  It's used in the tribal Hijaz and in the eastern region, including Al-Hasa.

It's clear from Nabati poetry that it originally meant لكن.  In the Riyadh and similar dialects, it's not often used in that sense but rather comes as an interjection meaning "by the way", "as a matter of fact", "indeed", "actually", etc.

As to whether it was originally مار or مير, it's difficult for me to say.  On the one hand, Schem is right that one struggles to find similar instances of _imala_ in Najdi dialects, while the reverse is a famous feature of the bedouin dialects of western Najd and eastern Hejaz (i.e. the Utayba and the Mutayr tribes: غير > غار, عليك > علاك, etc.).  On the other hand, one rarely if ever sees it written as مير in Nabati poetry, even in poetry from the central Najdi towns and even when it is pronounced as مير, which suggests that مار is the original form.


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## Hemza

Oh thanks, I didn't know it was used in Hijaz too. But is it in Western Hijaz? As my grand father was from yanbu3, I'm wondering .

I'm also curious about this shift from a "i" sound to a "a" sound. Does it often occurs Western Najdi/Eastern Hijazi?


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## WadiH

Hemza said:


> Oh thanks, I didn't know it was used in Hijaz too. But is it in Western Hijaz? As my grand father was from yanbu3, I'm wondering .



I don't know to be honest.  But I know it's used in the southern/middle Hejaz (Taif region).



> I'm also curious about this shift from a "i" sound to a "a" sound. Does it often occurs Western Najdi/Eastern Hijazi?



Yes, it's a very common and famous feature and I believe it predates Islam.


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## Hemza

Shukran ^^


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## Schem

Wadi Hanifa said:


> First thing to note is that it's not a specifically Najdi word.  It's used in the tribal Hijaz and in the eastern region, including Al-Hasa.



Ahlein Wadi Hanifa,

I haven't had much interaction with tribal Hejazis but I have family in Alahsa and have never heard it used in the region. Is its use there as common as it is in Gasseem? What about the pronunciation?


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## Schem

Our fellow forumer, Tracer, suggests the possibility of a (re)loan from Persian/Hindustani of magar مگر which would have been contracted into mar مار and eventually weakened into meir مير. This would certainly explain its consistent rendition as مار in written form and the amount of Persian/Hindustani loanwords that already exist in the NA-GA continuum does lend credence to the possibility of a borrowing.



			
				Tracer said:
			
		

> Both Persian and Urdu use Arabic /lakin/ for "but" while at the same time they also use the Persian /magar/ for "but".
> 
> I know it's far-fetched but I suggest that Ghaseemi /mar/ could be a "contraction" of Farsi /magar/ given the fact that /magar/ itself is (supposedly) made up of
> the Arabic negative /ma/ plus the Farsi /agar/ (if). In other words, ma +gar = not if = but.
> 
> Also, Farsi had some linguistic influence in Gulf Arabic (although why a Persian influence would reach Ghaseem. I wouldn't know).
> 
> Anyway, it's just a hypothetical connection. For a sort of convoluted discussion of magar/lakin, see
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1988050&highlight=magar+lakin


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## Jihadist

I'm very surprised that you are discussing whether the original form is مار or مير!

It is a contraction of *ما غير (ma ghair).* Some people retained the "a" in "ma" + "r, others prefered to use ير of غير plus the م. It is just like what happened to the word معليش in other dialects, which is a contraction of ما + عليه + شيء.

In the UAE and other areas in Arabia, they still use the original form. So if a Najdi would say:

رحت له البيت مير ما لقيته. (I went to his house, but I didn't find him)

the Emirati would say:

رحت له البيت ما غير ما لقيته.

Some Emiratis say: يَغير ما لقيته!

I think there are tribes in Najd or around it still using ما غير.

Like the word معليش, sometimes the original meaning of these contractions changes slightly or acquire additional meanings. For example, sometimes معليش is used as an apology like "معليش، خليك صبور" (sorry, be patient), or in the situation of going in the way of others (passing by, going through) like between theater seats or lines (equivalent to: "excuse me" or "pardon me") but originally it means ما عليه شيء = he is not guilty! or didn't do anything [wrong]! Fortunatley, most people don't think of the original meaning. Imagine someone annoying people in the cinema and saying "I'm not guilty!"

Likwise, today مير can be used to give the meaning of "by the way", "but", or just as a filler word.


> Our fellow forumer, Tracer, suggests the possibility of a (re)loan from Persian/Hindustani of magar مگر which would have been contracted into mar مار and eventually weakened into meir مير. This would certainly explain its consistent rendition as مار in written form and the amount of Persian/Hindustani loanwords that already exist in the NA-GA continuum does lend credence to the possibility of a borrowing.


The idea that مير is a Persian/Hindi loanword is ridiculous. Central Arabia, Najd in particular, is isolated and their dialects are the least foreign-influenced among all Arabic dialects. If it was a loanword, we should find it in Gulf dialects first, which are closer to Iran and India and the most affected by Persian/Indian languages, like Bahraini or Kuwaiti.

*I reckon that the Persian word itself is an Arabic loanword and comes from ما غير = ma ghair > ma gair > magair > 
magar.*


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## Schem

This is a plausible theory but I don't find it conclusive enough to dismiss all other theories. I actually wasn't aware of this use of ما غير in Emirati dialects so it definitely provides a new perspective. It would be interesting to know if this use was ever prevalent in (sedentary) Najd and in what period.


Jihadist said:


> Central Arabia, Najd in particular, is isolated and their dialects are the least foreign-influenced among all Arabic dialects.



This is exaggerated. Najd has always had extensive relations with its neighbors (and beyond) and Najdis boast some of the largest diasporas in the Middle East.


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## fdb

Jihadist said:


> I reckon that the Persian word itself is an Arabic loanword and comes from ما غير = ma ghair > ma gair > magair >
> *magar.*


I agree that مير is Arabic, not Persian. However, Persian magar is not Arabic, it is Persian ma + agar "not if"; both components go back to Old Persian, Old Iranian and Indo-European.


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## Jihadist

> I actually wasn't aware of this use of ما غير in Emirati dialects so it definitely provides a new perspective. It would be interesting to know if this use was ever prevalent in (sedentary) Najd and in what period.


I heard many people from different tribes in Najdi towns and villages using the original form in the same contexts of مير and مار.It is also used in Tunisian!





> This is exaggerated. Najd has always had extensive relations with its neighbors (and beyond) and Najdis boast some of the largest diasporas in the Middle East.


Just for clarification: I didn't mean that Najdi has no loanwords or not affected by other languages in one way or another. I said that if it was a Persian/Hindi, we must find it first in the Gulf areas closer to Persia/India.Seconldy, Persian/Hindi or Turkish loanwords in Najdi are related to new objects, tools or cultural activities like خاشوقة (spoon), دريشة (window) which entered Najdi through other Gulf dialects that are more affected by foreign languages. There are no loadwords in Najdi related to grammar structures used in everyday speech.***





> I agree that مير is Arabic, not Persian. However, Persian magar is not Arabic, it is Persian ma + agar "not if"; both components go back to Old Persian, Old Iranian and Indo-European.


I think so. Thank you for the clarification.


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## Schem

Jihadist said:


> Just for clarification: I didn't mean that Najdi has no loanwords or not affected by other languages in one way or another. I said that if it was a Persian/Hindi, we must find it first in the Gulf areas closer to Persia/India.Seconldy, Persian/Hindi or Turkish loanwords in Najdi are related to new objects, tools or cultural activities like خاشوقة (spoon), دريشة (window) which entered Najdi through other Gulf dialects that are more affected by foreign languages. There are no loadwords in Najdi related to grammar structures used in everyday speech.



Loanwords are simply added vocabulary, they don't affect grammatical structures in most other dialects either. This is really a non-issue; I only contended your reference to Najd as an isolated region and Najdi dialects as 'least foreign-influenced' as exaggerated. Loanwords do exist in Najdi dialects and they exist via direct contact and through borrowing from other dialects (not solely GA).


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## WadiH

Jihadist said:


> In the UAE and other areas in Arabia, they still use the original form. So if a Najdi would say:
> 
> رحت له البيت مير ما لقيته. (I went to his house, but I didn't find him)
> 
> the Emirati would say:
> 
> رحت له البيت ما غير ما لقيته.
> 
> Some Emiratis say: يَغير ما لقيته!
> 
> I think there are tribes in Najd or around it still using ما غير.


This would definitely be the strongest explanation I've encountered, if true.


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## Jihadist

Today, I saw two guys talking about a girl and one of them said:

يقولون فلانة حليوة وزينة ما غير انها كبيرة في السن (they say that "Jane Doe" is pretty and beautiful, except that/but she is spinster)

If we replace ما غير in this sentence with مير, it would mean the same thing in Najdi dialect.


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## Hemza

I think this form is present in some dialects, in Moroccan (I have no idea about Bedouin Hijazi but I guess it's close to Najdi) we would say "غير" (alone) with the meaning "except that".


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## Schem

I stumbled upon another likely candidate today with an almost identical pronunciation and meaning: Turkish meğer.


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## fdb

The Turkish word is borrowed from Persian magar, for which see no. 19.


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