# Rom/zingaro



## jobu

I have seen the word "rom" used a few times in articles in Il Messaggero regarding i nomadi. 
"Circa 80 barrache abiate da 200 rom, molti dei..."

Grazie per il vostro aiuto


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## Idioteque

Hello jobu! It means "gypsy"...   

Ciao, Laura


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## jobu

Grazie Laura!

I am correct to think "rom" is a not so nice way to say "gypsie"?


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## winnie

jobu said:
			
		

> Grazie Laura!
> 
> I am correct to think "rom" is a not so nice way to say "gypsie"?


 
tecnically 'rom' is not a derogative word for gypsie.

basically there are two gypsie ethnic group: Sinta and Rom. here in Italy Rom are much more then Sinti so in the common language they are gypsie tout court.


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## Idioteque

jobu said:
			
		

> Grazie Laura!
> 
> I am correct to think "rom" is a not so nice way to say "gypsie"?



Prego! 
No, I don't think it has a negative connotation... according to my dictionary, it's a word from Gypsy language that  properly means "man"...

Ciao, Laura



			
				winnie said:
			
		

> tecnically 'rom' is not a derogative word for gypsie.
> 
> basically there are two gypsie ethnic group: Sinta and Rom. here in Italy Rom are much more then Sinti so in the common language they are gypsie tout court.



Oh, I didn't know this!  Thanks for your bright explanation, I always learn new things in this forum!!!  

Ciao, Laura


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## disegno

Idioteque said:
			
		

> Thanks for your bright explanation, I always learn new things in this forum!!!



Ciao Laura! Si sente più frequentamente..."brilliant" or "enlightening" explanation/response. 

Si sente invece: "you have a bright idea" (you have a good idea) 

Non so perché, nonostante tutti tratta dei lampadini e luce!


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## Andre Balian

La mia professoressa mi ha detto che la parola "zingaro/i" vuol dire "gypsy/ies".  

What connotation does this word have?  

She said that she does not like them at all.


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## Idioteque

disegno said:
			
		

> Ciao Laura! Si sente più frequentamente..."brilliant" or "enlightening" explanation/response.
> 
> Si sente invece: "you have a bright idea" (you have a good idea)
> 
> Non so perché, nonostante tutt*o* *si* tratta di lampadin*e* e luce!



Thank you very much for your correction!   I've learnt something new, again...   

Ciao, Laura



			
				Andre Balian said:
			
		

> La mia professoressa mi ha detto che la parola "zingaro/i" vuol dire "gypsy/ies".
> 
> What connotation does this word have?
> 
> She said that she does not like them at all.



Ciao Andre! This word doesn't have itself a negative connotation... it's that there are often prejudices about this ethnic group, so some narrow-minded and intolerant people may convey a negative connotation to it...   
I guess you know who they are... it's an ethnical group who lead a nomadic life... they often live in roulottes and bungalows...

Ciao, Laura


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## rom_itn

Oh god ! Guys, should I give up my short nick name and start using my real long name?!!


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## Idioteque

rom_itn said:
			
		

> Oh god ! Guys, should I give up my short nick name and start using my real long name?!!



I repeat, it's not an insult!  

Ciao, Laura


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## foxfirebrand

I looked up _zingara_ and found no mention of _gitano (gittano?)._  I know it's Spanish, but I could swear that's what we called them in Naples.  We also said _ven aca,_ after all-- the first time I heard_ "venga qui"_ I just about...well, laughed.  Also _va t'en_ but that's French, isn't it?  A relic of Bourbon rule.

If so, and the term _zingana_ is _"travolturno,"_ then it would be yet another example of why Northerners are lumped in with "Tedeschi."  The German word for Gypsy is _Zigeuner._ 
.


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## Idioteque

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I looked up _zingara_ and found no mention of _gitano (gittano?)._  I know it's Spanish, but I could swear that's what we called them in Naples.  We also said _ven aca,_ after all-- the first time I heard_ "venga qui"_ I just about...well, laughed.  Also _va t'en_ but that's French, isn't it?  A relic of Bourbon rule.
> 
> If so, and the term _zingana_ is _"travolturno,"_ then it would be yet another example of why Northerners are lumped in with "Tedeschi."  The German word for Gypsy is _Zigeuner._
> .



Well, in Italian "gitano"=gypsy, too... even though it's less common than "zingaro"...
According to my dictionary:
_gitano= gypsy from Spain; this word comes from Spanish "gitano", from vernacular latin "Aegyptanus"= egiziano, for the classic term "Aegyptanius"_

There's an other term which expresses almost the same meaning, but it's quite rare
zigano (or "tzigano)= gypsy from Danubian Area; this word comes from French "tsigane", "tsigane", which derives from Hungarian "cigany"...

Ciao, Laura


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## Adel

foxfirebrand said:
			
		

> I looked up _zingara_ and found no mention of _gitano (gittano?)._ I know it's Spanish, but I could swear that's what we called them in Naples. We also said _ven aca,_ after all-- the first time I heard_ "venga qui"_ I just about...well, laughed. Also _va t'en_ but that's French, isn't it? A relic of Bourbon rule.


 

Hi Fox,

the word is gitano (one t) and yes it is Spanish. Also _ven aca_ (or ven aquì) is also Spanish but _va t'en_ sounds very much like _Vattenne_ which is Neapolitan.
Now I'm puzzled :

do you mean Naples in Italy or in the U.S.A.?


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## silvietta

ciao a tutti,
ho ritrovato il mio splendido dizionario etimologico!!
zingaro: dal greco medioevale Atsinganoi (intoccabili), nome di una tribù dell'Asia Minore.
Il nome pare derivare da "*Athingan*". Altri nomi con cui sono noti sono il *francese "bohemeins"*, lo *spagnolo "gitanos"* e *l'inglese "gipsies",* alterazione *da "egizi", **balcanico* *"tzigani".* Il nome che gli zingari danno a se stessi è quello di *"Manusch"* o *"Rom",* che significa uomo (dal sanscrito manu) contrapposto a "gaggio" (=stupido, individuo di altra origine, di altra razza). vivono secondo le tradizioni familiari matriarcali e conservano molte tradizioni pagane.

Cit.:"Dizionario Etimologico della Lingua Italiana" di Barbara Colonna - Grandi Tascabili Economici - Newton

Mi sembrava interessante...  
Silvia


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## Idioteque

silvietta said:
			
		

> ciao a tutti,
> ho ritrovato il mio splendido dizionario etimologico!!



Moolto interessante!  Adoro le etimologie...  
Onestamente il vocabolo "zigano" l'ho sentito molto di rado... per esempio in una vecchia canzone a proposito di un "violino zigano"...


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## foxfirebrand

Adel said:
			
		

> ...do you mean Naples in Italy or in the U.S.A.?


 
I mean Napuli, in Campania, Italia.  All those expressions are Napulitano, including _ven aca,_ and I know they're also Spanish-- but the whole of Southern Italy and Sicily was ruled by Spanish-speaking Aragonese dynasties from the 13th century till Napoleonic times.  French-speaking Bourbons then ruled until the Risorgiamento, when the northerners took over under the House of Savoie.

So there are a lot of Spanish words in _dialetto,_ but I wasn't 100% sure _gitano_ was one of them.  I tend to believe that, because I have clear memories of pronouncing it both ways, HEE- and JEE- to phoneticize it crudely in English.

There's another word for Gypsies I just can't think of.  The group I had some conversation with were in Barcelona, so maybe it was simply what they were called in Catalan.


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## Adel

I mean Napuli, in Campania, Italia. All those expressions are Napulitano, including _ven aca,_ and I know they're also Spanish--

 Hi Fox,
thanks for replying. 
Ven aca is Spanish and it has influenced the vien ccà (not sure this is the correct writing...maybe Carlo may help here)in Neapolitan as there is, as you mentioned, a strong legacy of French and Bourbonic Spanish in the Neapolitan and Sicilian dialect.

So there are a lot of Spanish words in _dialetto,_ but I wasn't 100% sure _gitano_ was one of them. I tend to believe that, because I have clear memories of pronouncing it both ways, HEE- and JEE- to phoneticize it crudely in English.

The pronunciation of Gitano in Castillian (but not Andalusia) is JEE (guttural) and Hee in the South (I.e. Andalusia) where the guttural sound (like in many parts of S.America) does not exist or has been lost.
In Naples I have always heard _zingaro_ though and not Gitano. But I may be wrong and maybe Carlo might help again here.

There's another word for Gypsies I just can't think of. The group I had some conversation with were in Barcelona, so maybe _it was simply what they were called in Catalan._

I guess you're right here. More than possible that you've heard the Catalan. I'll check on Spanish site or we may ask Anna +.


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## Nicosito

"There's another word for Gypsies I just can't think of. The group I had some conversation with were in Barcelona, so maybe _it was simply what they were called in Catalan._"

Perhaps they referred to themselves as "Kalé" a self-appellation for Spanish _Gypsies _which originally means "black".

Most of the externally applied denominations and their variants: gitano, zingaro, Gypsy, (why not "nomadi" as the Italian government mistakenly categorises many sedentary people) tend to be interchangeable from one language to another.

By the way: Gypsy being a proper noun, or an adjective describing an ethnic group, it is grammatically correct to give it a capital letter in English. Wordreference hasn´t figured this out yet although I sent them an email about it. I wonder if those ever get read by anyone?

Nico.


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## Angel.Aura

Nicosito said:


> By the way: Gypsy being a proper noun, or an adjective describing an ethnic group, it is grammatically correct to give it a capital letter in English. Wordreference hasn´t figured this out yet although I sent them an email about it. I wonder if those ever get read by anyone?


Ciao Nico 

This is what I find if I search for the word gypsy:


> Multiple results for gypsy: Gypsy gypsy
> *Gypsy*:
> Gypsy  nf  zingara
> Gypsy  nm zingaro


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## london calling

Hello, everyone!

I notice nobody has mentioned the Romany Gypsies (Rom). I was always told they were very proud of this name and were very annoyed if people called them "tinkers" (a derogatory word for Gypsies, in the UK and Eire at least!).

By the way, Fox, I work in Salerno and live in Naples and am married to a campano, may I say I've only ever heard "gitano" pronounced with a hard "g" in this part of the world and used in reference to the French/Spanish Gypsies. It's not considered dialect! 

_Ven 'accà!_ is, as you say Fox, a word dialect which derives from the Spanish. "Napoletano" is a mixture, as you have all pointed out, of French, Spanish and some middle-eastern languages (The Saracens were Turks!). I find it absolutely fascinating..


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## Queva

Actually, a "tinker" is not a "gypsy", but an irish national with nomadic habits, etnically undisinguishable from your average irish (or so the experts say). The name comes from the work they used to do (fixing metal items like pots and such, normally by soldering, therefore using tin, hence "tinker") and they are subject to the very same prejudices we in Italy have against _zingari. Tinker _is considered somewhat impolite, when they want to speak "politically correctly" Irish normally use the word _traveller_, I don't know if it's used in the UK as well. 

The usual word for "gypsy" in Italy is _zingaro, _but in recent years the term _rom_ has become more common, and I think this happened because newspapers started to use the word more often out of political correctness (or maybe 'cause it's short and fits better in the titles..).


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## london calling

Queva said:


> Actually, a "tinker" is not a "gypsy", but an irish national with nomadic habits, etnically undisinguishable from your average irish (or so the experts say). The name comes from the work they used to do (fixing metal items like pots and such, normally by soldering, therefore using tin, hence "tinker") and they are subject to the very same prejudices we in Italy have against _zingari. Tinker _is considered somewhat impolite, when they want to speak "politically correctly" Irish normally use the word _traveller_, I don't know if it's used in the UK as well. Yes,  that's exactly what I meant! I know Gypsies aren't tinkers, but many people still call them that: "traveller" is PC, but I know a lot of people who still talk about tinkers...And that's the reason why Romany Gypsies don't want to be mixed up with them....
> 
> The usual word for "gypsy" in Italy is _zingaro, _but in recent years the term _rom_ has become more common, and I think this happened because newspapers started to use the word more often out of political correctness (or maybe 'cause it's short and fits better in the titles..).


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## Einstein

I have thought for quite a time that "tinker" and "zingaro" had a common origin, and that tinker had then come to mean a mender of pots and pans as this was a job typically done by itinerant gypsies. However, I've just googled "tinker etymology" and according to the experts the origin is uncertain and the only meaning is someone who mends kettles, pans etc. (stagnaro?).

I once read that the English word gypsy came from the fact that in the past they were believed to come from Egypt, but who knows...


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## Claudio_it

I heard that "rom" in english is translated with "roma". Have the natives ever heard of it?


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## london calling

Claudio_it said:


> I heard that "rom" in english is translated with "roma". Have the natives ever heard of it?


I've always translated it as "Romany Gypsy" (see my previous post): I think I'll have to look "roma" up, as it might be a recent thing which I haven't heard!

EDIT. Wiki says:

*Roma (Gypsy) mythology* is the myth, folklore, religion, traditions, and legends of the Roma people. The Gypsies, who call themselves Rom or Romany, are a nomadic culture which originated in India during the Middle Ages. They migrated widely, particularly to Europe.


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## Claudio_it

Maybe. I read it in an article titled "The picture that shames Italy" on The Independent of the 22nd of July. It could be a new way of saying it.


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## london calling

Claudio_it said:


> Maybe. I read it in an article titled "The picture that shames Italy" on The Independent of the 22nd of July. It could be a new way of saying it.


See my EDIT, Claudio!


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## Claudio_it

Yes, so it's correct, I just saw it after I posted my last one.
Thanks


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## Nicosito

Hi everybody. A few things:

L'Aura: you are right, WordReference uses BOTH the much-used but grammatically untenable lower-case gypsy and the upper-case Gypsy.

London Calling and Claudio it:

Re:Rom/Romani/Romany..etc.

The word being from the Romani language, it has been,and is being adopted in other languages in varying ways. Its use is not always consistent, (though it probably should be) and I think the whole thing is still in flux.

Rom, as someone mentioned, means "man" or "husband".
Romani/Romany is an adjective in the Romani language itself, and has been used as such (with a "y" to begin with)in English since at least the 19th C.(Maybe more, but check)
Roma is a plural of Rom.

There is therefore the basis to use these words in other languages, e.g., in English: a Rom, a group of Roma, a Romani tradition.

Other languages don't necessarily adopt the same rules however, and despite the fact English has the adjective "Romany"; "Roma" is sometimes used as an adjective in English, as in Seamus Milne's article. Less tenable, perhaps, is the use of the plural "Roma" as a singular, e.g.: "A Roma approached to ask a question" -which I have seen at least once in the British press.

In French the root is used to construct the plural: "les roms", the adjective: "une chanson rom".

In Romania,Romanian nationalists resist using this language root because they don't want "Romanian" to be confused with "Romani" (though it doesn't occur to them to change the name of their country!).

(I guess an article in Italian talking about Romani people in Rome could be open to the same confusion, but "nomadi" is a truly misleading alternative word for largely sedentary Roma and Sinti people, with dire political consequences: housing people in easy-to-burn or crush prefabricated huts instead of real houses because "they are nomads and they like it".)


Nico.


-----------------


Einstein: "I've just googled "tinker etymology" and according to the experts the origin is uncertain and the only meaning is someone who mends kettles, pans etc. (stagnaro?)."

Wikipedia has this:

"Travellers refer to themselves as "*Pavees*". [...]Many non-Pavee people [..] still use the term "tinkers" [3] from the Irish _tincéirí_, sg. _tincéir_ or "tinsmith."

(Metalwork is, as is known, also a traditional Romani occupation.)


Nico.


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## Einstein

In my experience the use of "tinker" for "gypsy" is more Irish than British. A tinker, to me, is (or was) a _stagnaio_, a purely occupational term.


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## london calling

Hello, nico!

Thanks for all the info...

Is your "ferpectly bilingual" note a joke by the way?


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## Gyurme

Now in 2019 it is not politically correct to use the word "Gypsies". Roma is the acceptable term apparently in USA English.


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## Benzene

Gyurme said:


> Now in 2019 it is not politically correct to use the word "Gypsies". Roma is the acceptable term apparently in USA English.


_I agree with you.

I think the official polite version is "Rom", the point is that I am sure that they do not prefer "Gypsies".
Let us not forget that there are also the Sinti, Kalé and Yenish who are nomadic ethnic groups.
Gypsy is straight-up racist, similar to using the word "Black or Nigger in USA or South Africa.
Gypsy is as a racial insult against the Rom, Sinti, Kalé  and Yenish people, at least for me

Bye,
*Benzene*_


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## london calling

Gyurme said:


> Now in 2019 it is not politically correct to use the word "Gypsies". Roma is the acceptable term apparently in USA English.


Same in the UK now.


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## sound shift

london calling said:


> Same in the UK now.


That's what I had heard - but I regularly come across a group of these people, and they describe themselves as 'Gypsies'. I tried the term 'Roma' on them, and got blank expressions in response.


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## Einstein

sound shift said:


> That's what I had heard - but I regularly come across a group of these people, and they describe themselves as 'Gypsies'. I tried the term 'Roma' on them, and got blank expressions in response.


I'm not surprised. These carefully chosen politically correct adjectives are used mainly between journalists or intellectuals to show how unprejudiced they are, while the ethnic group itself is less worried about it.
Anyway, it's up to them what they want to be called.


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## Paulfromitaly

Einstein said:


> These carefully chosen politically correct adjectives are used mainly between journalists or intellectuals to show how unprejudiced they are, while the ethnic group itself is less worried about it.


Absolutely.
The more biased against an ethnic group some people are, the more careful they choose these feigned politically correct adjectives.


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