# Stop glottalization?



## LoveVanPersie

Is there "stop glottalization" in German?
This says /p b t d k ɡ/ before /ən/ (becomes syllabic [m̩ n̩ ŋ̩]) is [ʔ].
But I am not sure if it is actually glottal stop [ʔ] because this answer says "Rather than turning it into a glottal stop, the alveolar stop and the syllabic merge to something between a /d/ and an /n/."
What on earth is it?


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## Frank78

Do you mean these examples?

▪ klappen : /klapən/ → [kla*ʔm̩*]
▪ braten : /bʀa:tən/ → [bʀa:*ʔn̩*]
▪ packen : /pakən/ → [pa*ʔŋ̍*]

I'm not sure if it's a real gottal stop either, I don't think so.

What I do in very colloquial speech is

1.) saying "kla"
2.) only closing the lips for the P and breathing the air out through my nose
3.) "m"

I'd rather say it's dropping the aspiration part of p and t, so basically they sound like b and d respectively but that might be my native accent.


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## LoveVanPersie

You mean nasal release [-pᵐm̩] and [-tⁿn̩]? What about /b d k ɡ/?


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## berndf

Yes, it is a nasal release in front of syllabic nasals. The quality of the nasal is assimilated to the stop, i.e. [-m̩] after labial, [-n̩] after alveolar and [-ŋ̩] after velar stops.

I don't agree with Frank that the aspiration of fortis stops is dropped. There is phonemic contrast between aspirated and not aspirated nasal release. E.g., _hab'n_ (< _haben_) vs. _Happ'n_ (<_Happen_) both have a nasally released labial stop followed by [-m̩] but the former with zero VOT (i.e. non-aspirated) and the latter with positive VOT (i.e. aspirated).


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## Frank78

Yes, Bernd there is a difference between hab'n and Happ'n. I was just wondering how a sound can be aspirated if you keep your lips closed and release the air through your nose.


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## berndf

Why would it be a problem to produce a voiceless airstream through the nose? You might transcribe it as [m̥], a devoiced [m].


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## LoveVanPersie

Wikipedia formerly says "When stops occur between two nasals (one being syllabic), they may be replaced by a glottal stop though they still determine the nature of the nasal. Thus, Lampen ('lamps') changes from [ˈlampən] to [ˈlamʔm̩]; speakers are often unaware of this."
So is it wrong?


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## LoveVanPersie

And the second pronunciation of _verwursten_ sounds unaspirated?


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## berndf

Agreed, the second sounds more like _verwurs*d*n_.


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## LoveVanPersie

This also sounds like unaspirated?


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## berndf

Well, it's the same speaker. He comes from an area where in local dialect d and t are indistinguishable. Maybe it shows. I am used to this pronunciation and the way he says it doesn't sound unnatural to me. But I would never say it this way.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> a voiceless airstream through the nose....a devoiced [m]


I am hardly able to imagine or produce such a sound. Do you mean to say that 'Happen' would be pronounced 'ha' + a simple expiration through the nose (sort of (Nasen-) Hauch)...?


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## berndf

I can tell you how I produce this pronunciation of _Happen_ and you try to make sense of it: I say _Ha _and then close the lips and at the same time stop voicing producing an audible _p_-closure. I then close the glottis and build up pressure, which is then released through the nose. The lips remain closed. While still exhaling through the nose I resume voicing. The important thing is the audibly positive VOT, i.e. voicing is resumed audibly later than the glottal release.


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## bearded

Thank you, berndf.  Ich bemühe mich gerade.


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## Hutschi

Frank78 said:


> Yes, Bernd there is a difference between hab'n and Happ'n. I was just wondering how a sound can be aspirated if you keep your lips closed and release the air through your nose.


To me there is a clear difference, too. It is mainly the vowel length - but because of the different vowel lenght also the consonant strength seems to be a little bit difference.

If the vowel length of "hab'n" is shortened, it can be further reduced to "hamm" (via "habm")
haben->hab'n->habm->hamm
For me it is difficult to say "hab'n", in coll. language I mostly say "habm". "Hamm" is spoken in "Hammer"=Haben wir? in the song: "Der alte Hammer, Hammer, Hammer, Hammer in Frohna, ja da hammer (haben wir), hammer, hammer unsere Freud' alle dra' (dran). - a song reffering to regional dialect.

In case of "Happ'n" it is more difficult. I can easily speak "Happ'n" with aspirated "p", but it is hard to say "Habb'n" with soft "b" (not aspirated) to me.
It can be reduced until "habbm" but not until "hamm". I can easily say "Habbm".
Happen->Happ'n->Habbn->Habbm - always short vowel, so there remains a difference to "hamm"="haben".

---


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## berndf

Yes, it is not a true minimal pair because of the different lengths of the _a_. A true minimal pair is _Hagen_ [ˈhaː.kŋ̩] vs. _Haken_ [ˈhaː.kʰŋ̩], where, again, release and aspiration are nasal.


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## Frank78

berndf said:


> _Haken_ [ˈhaː.*kʰ*ŋ̩], where, again, release and *aspiration are nasal*.



That was actually the thing I wondered about. Can a nasal release be apsirated. I feel the difference between Hagen and Haken in my nose but I doubt it's audible.


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## berndf

Frank78 said:


> Do you mean these examples?
> 
> ▪ klappen : /klapən/ → [kla*ʔm̩*]
> ▪ braten : /bʀa:tən/ → [bʀa:*ʔn̩*]
> ▪ packen : /pakən/ → [pa*ʔŋ̍*]
> 
> I'm not sure if it's a real gottal stop either, I don't think so.


I don't agree with this transcription either. It is only the release that is glottal. The closure isn't. This transcription suggest that both, closure and release, are glottal.


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## berndf

Frank78 said:


> That was actually the thing I wondered about. Can a nasal release be apsirated. I feel the difference between Hagen and Haken in my nose but I doubt it's audible.


I find it quite audible.

Hagen-Haken.m4a

(PS: I realized I slightly voiced the /g/ in _Hagen _whereas I transcribed it as an unaspirated [k]. Both realisations are equivalent.)


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## Frank78

berndf said:


> I find it quite audible.
> 
> Hagen-Haken.m4a



 It is.


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## LoveVanPersie

berndf said:


> Well, it's the same speaker. He comes from an area where in local dialect d and t are indistinguishable. Maybe it shows. I am used to this pronunciation and the way he says it doesn't sound unnatural to me. But I would never say it this way.


But the speaker (Thonatas) also pronounces aspirated stops, e.g. Pille, Tarnau, kaufenswert.


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## berndf

LoveVanPersie said:


> But the speaker (Thonatas) also pronounces aspirated stops, e.g. Pille, Tarnau, kaufenswert.


I didn't say anything to the contrary. I only said he might me somewhat less eager to maintain the phonemic contrast between fortis and lenis stops even in such exotic contexts as the ones we are discussing here than I would be.


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## Hutschi

I listened and in the example it is different, indeed.
But in case of "Hagen" it is kind of [ˈhaːgn̩] (like spoken Hagn)
in "Hagen" I hear a kind of : [ˈhaːɡŋ] (like spoken "Hagng")
This is the case in the example.

In my area "Haken" and "Wagen" could be pronounced the same way, but more as [ˈhaːɡŋ].
If after "g" an "n" follows - this is hard to speak, and there is a glotal stop after "g". But it is not aspirated.
If "Haken" is pronounced very clearly, "k" becomes aspirated while "g" will not be aspirated. In this case it is clearly different to "Hagen".
Duden gives "_haken_" vs. _Hagen_ for this.

Wiktionary gives IPA: [ˈhaːkn̩] vs. IPA: [ˈhaːɡn̩] (Approximately).

In the #19 example I hear   [ˈhaːɡŋ]=Hagen vs. [ˈhaːɡn̩]=Haken


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> In the #19 example I hear [ˈhaːɡŋ]=Hagen vs. [ˈhaːɡn̩]=Haken


I can assure you that both end with [ŋ]. It is interesting that you still hear an [n] in one of them.


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## Hutschi

LoveVanPersie said:


> Wikipedia formerly says "When stops occur between two nasals (one being syllabic), they may be replaced by a glottal stop though they still determine the nature of the nasal. Thus, Lampen ('lamps') changes from [ˈlampən] to [ˈlamʔm̩]; speakers are often unaware of this."
> So is it wrong?



I think this is true.
lampen -- lampn --- lampm (P is not aspirated and spoken without opening the mouth. I do not know this in IPA.

---
I made a file  but I do not know how to send it.

_*Edit: *Can I insert a link?  Would you allow it? I made the file myself. I read the rules again ..._

I spoke the words in variants, especially the "lamp" section should bring information.

It contains Haken, Hagen and Lampen - first "overpronounced" then in a middle derivation - then in the last stadium I use.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> I think this is true.


So do I.


Hutschi said:


> P is not aspirated


Not for me. I definitely aspirate the stop (through my nose).

A hypothetical word *_Lamben_ (i.e. pronounced without aspiration) would sound audibly different. This is how I would pronounce _Lampen_ only if I wanted to imitate Frankfurt dialect. In my own accent (which I would describe as _neutral with some northern influence_) this would sound completely off.


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## Hutschi

Hi, you are right.
In "Lampen" I aspirate it mostly, sometimes not, because of influence of "Fränkisch" and "Sächsisch",
but when I remove the "e" I do not aspirate the "p". It may be I just think this and it is not really true. In the inside the sounds are bigger than in the outside.

May I insert a file via Onedrive?


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> May I insert a file via Onedrive?


Yes.


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## Hutschi

Edit:
Haken Hagen Lampen


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## LoveVanPersie

So when not following a nasal, /p b t d k ɡ/ before /ən/ could become nasal release instead of [ʔ]; but when there is a preceding nasal, they become [ʔ] rather than nasal release?


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## berndf

LoveVanPersie said:


> but when there is a preceding nasal, they become [ʔ] rather than nasal release?


It is always a nasal release. The only difference is that the closure is nasal as well.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> Edit:
> Haken Hagen Lampen


I hear clear nasal aspiration in your _Lampm_.


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## Hutschi

Thank you, Bernd. It is nasal. I did not know that it is aspiration.


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## LoveVanPersie

berndf said:


> I don't agree with this transcription either. It is only the release that is glottal. The closure isn't. This transcription suggest that both, closure and release, are glottal.


Glottal release? Sorry I am confused...


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## berndf

A stop has two parts, the closure, the blocking of the airstream and the release of this blocking.


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## Hutschi

So "Lampm" has a stop: I can feel the closure, the blocking of the airstream and the release of this blocking. Thank you for this clear definition, Bernd

Could you also explain "aspiration" (Behauchung) in such a clear way? Does the release always include aspiration? I think it is part of the release.


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## berndf

Forceful exhaling that produces an audible sound.

In the context of fortis-lenis separation of German stops, the most distinguishing characteristic of aspiration is that it produces a time gap between the plosive release and the voice onset, called the VOT (voice onset time). A typical VOT of German fortis stops is 60ms.


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## LoveVanPersie

berndf said:


> It is only the release that is glottal.





berndf said:


> It is always a nasal release.


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## LoveVanPersie

What about the VOT of German voiced stops? Is it close to 0ms?


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## berndf

Yes


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## LoveVanPersie

berndf said:


> I don't agree with this transcription either. It is only the release that is glottal. The closure isn't. This transcription suggest that both, closure and release, are glottal.


Do you wanna say "It is only the closure that is glottal. The release isn't."?


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## berndf

LoveVanPersie said:


> Do you wanna say "It is only the closure that is glottal. The release isn't."?


No, wanted to say what I said. Only the release is glottal.


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