# Question about Hindi in America



## Paintdrop

Is it rude to assume that the vast majority of Indian Americans are fluent in Hindi? If you are an American from India, what percentage of Indian Americans would you estimate to "fluently" speak Hindi? By the way, I am fully aware that there are many languages spoken in India, such as Gujarati, Nepali, Bengali, etc. 

I only ask this question because I am interested in learning a language from India, and Hindi seems to be the most widely spoken in terms of numbers. Can anyone offer some insight? Thanks a lot!

ps. I would have posted this in the cultural section, but was restricted to create a new thread for whatever reason.


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## rahulbemba

It is true that Hindi is the most widely spoken language in India. Hindi movies have theaters all across the country and be it Hindi art or songs, they are well received all across. But then there are exceptions. Hindi is not spoken in the daily life in many states of India. Also, in some regions/states, there has been campaigns to stop the use of Hindi in favor of "actual local" language. At times, I would accept that such campaigns have gone to the extent of "Hate-Hindi" extent. Given this background, I would say that it is not prudent to assume that all Indians in the USA would know Hindi. If you have had some unpleasant experience because of such an assumption, then it is bad to imagine. But you can understand that the person(s) may be coming from such background. 

In particular, Tamil-speaking people know least of Hindi. Gujaratis/Bengalis can know Hindi and you can assume that they know. Again, some people from the North-Eastern part of India (Assemese e.g.) may not be knowing Hindi. 

I would suggest that you should learn Hindi only, if you want to learn an Indian language. People from the Southern part of India are least comfortable with Hindi (Tamils, Keralites, e.g.), but their languages (Tamil, Telugu, e.g.) are both harder to learn and not spoken except in their home-states.


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## Qureshpor

rahulbemba said:


> It is true that Hindi is the most widely spoken language in India. Hindi movies have theaters all across the country and be it Hindi art or songs, they are well received all across.
> 
> Rahul jii, in other threads it has been suggested that Urdu based vocabulary in "Hindi" films and "Hindi" songs would not necessarily be understood by the vast majority of "Hindi" speakers. The type of words which were being discussed were "anjuman", "manzil", "tamaam", "manzuur", "farmaan", "paakiizah" etc. Would you say this is true? If it is so, why are the public being subjected to a vocabulary which is beyond them? I am just curious.
> 
> These are the threads in question..
> 
> Hindi: Appropriate language for sci-fi setting?
> Urdu/Hindi: Kitab vs Pustak
> 
> I would suggest that you should learn Hindi only, if you want to learn an Indian language. People from the Southern part of India are least comfortable with Hindi (Tamils, Keralites, e.g.), but their languages (Tamil, Telugu, e.g.) are both harder to learn and not spoken except in their home-states.
> 
> I wonder if Tamil, Telugu  and other South Indian language speakers would be in agreement with you  on the relative ease or difficulty in learning them. I have been told  that "Telugu" is considered to be the "Italian" of the East! Besides,  Tamil is not just restricted to Tamil Nadu, it is also spoken in  northern Sri Lanka.
> 
> Going to the eastern part of the country, how  about Bengali? It has got a Nobel winner (Rabindranath Tagore) and is  spoken by millions of people in the Indian state of Bengal (as well as  Bangladesh of course).



I suppose, at the end of the day, it all depends on what language community with its origins in India the enquirer is going to have the most contact with in America. If they are mainly Hindi speakers, then Hindi would be the best option.


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## rahulbemba

The question was about "language" not about understanding words. Should I need to point out that even the English speakers know/use/understand what % of total vocab available to them? Also, let me clarify that just because some Urdu words are used in Hindi sentences/songs, the "language" doesn't become one of conflicting interest. Hindi has a sound system of "Videshaj" words - meaning the words used in Hindi language which are originally from other languages. Such words become part of the Hindi language. So there is no confusion about Hindi or the language being Hindi with Videshaj words.

Tamil being spoken in SriLanka was not the subject of this forum. We are on the topic of languages spoken by Indian-Americans.

Bengali is a very rich language spoken mainly by Bengalis only - people born/raised in the eastern state of West Bengal. Very few people from other parts of India know Bengali language.


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## Qureshpor

rahulbemba said:


> The question was about "language" not about  understanding words. Should I need to point out that even the English  speakers know/use/understand what % of total vocab available to them?
> 
> With  due respect Rahul jii, it is no secret that words are building blocks  of any language and understanding the component parts of a language  facilitates understanding of that "language". No, I am fully aware that  even the vocabulary of a professor of English might not exceed 20,000  words but that was not the question at hand! By the way, you have n't  answered my original question. I would be grateful for your views.
> 
> Also, let me clarify that just because some Urdu words are used in  Hindi sentences/songs, the "language" doesn't become one of conflicting  interest. Hindi has a sound system of "Videshaj" words - meaning the  words used in Hindi language which are originally from other languages.  Such words become part of the Hindi language. So there is no confusion  about Hindi or the language being Hindi with Videshaj words.
> 
> You stated, "Hindi movies have theaters all across the country and be it Hindi art or songs, they are well received all across..".The  implication then is that Hindi is well understood across the country.  My question was simply to probe the extent or otherwise of this  understanding. I  hasten to add that some of these "videshaj" words have been part of  Indian life for more than a 1000 years and this term is strictly not  correct.
> 
> Tamil being spoken in SriLanka was not the subject of this forum. We are on the topic of languages spoken by Indian-Americans.
> 
> True.  But a section of Indians in America originating from India are likely  to be Tamil speakers and Tamil is not restricted to South India only.  The point I was making was that it is not merely a state or regional  language but an international one.
> 
> Bengali is a very rich language spoken mainly by Bengalis only - people  born/raised in the eastern state of West Bengal. Very few people from  other parts of India know Bengali language.
> 
> True  only as far as India is concerned. Once again, Bengali is an  international language and therefore has a wider appeal. The enquirer is  interested in knowing the extent of Hindi usage amongst Indian-origin  Americans. Whilst the enquirer is fully aware of other languages of  India, there is no harm in pointing out other very important languages,  like Bengali, which is likely to be spoken by a considerable number of  Indian-origin Americans too.


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## rahulbemba

I think we are getting too much into a debate. In general I prefer people to give their opinion on the thread-starter's post and not to stretch the discussion to the infinite, things in which the original person may not be interested at all. To address your points:

Urdu words in Hindi songs - it is true that all such words are not understood by the listeners. For many of the words, the meaning is not understood but the feelings in them are conveyed because words are only part of the overall experience which has many other components. In the "flow" of a song, individual words don't matter to the listeners. Why such words are inserted into Hindi songs? I think it is because the lyricists want to broaden the options available to them in order to create the best "rhyme". Hindi speakers don't mind Urdu or even Gujarati/Marathi/Bhojpuri words coming to them and hence there is no objection at all for this. Means it is no issue at all and listeners of Hindi songs don’t mind the individual insertions of other words. (You can call it part of the culture of collective tolerance for which Indians are famous).

On Tamil being an international language. Those who speak Tamil in Sri Lanka, are Tamils by race and they had migrated to Sri Lanka centuries ago. This is a controversial topic in itself.

On Bengali, again as I said if a language is restricted to one particular race or cultural/social lot/group, it won’t become an “international language”, just because many speakers from the same lot go settle in different nations. Bengali is a regional language in India, mainly concentrated in the state of West Bengal and mostly people born/broughy-up in the Bengal speak/know it. What I say is not to demean the language, as the Bengali language is a very rich one and has created wonderful literature.


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## greatbear

Hindi is widely understood across India, but as rahulbemba said, there are regions where it's not that common, plus there are people who would understand it but would not be ready to show that they are understanding it. The south is the most resistant to Hindi, especially Tamil Nadu; speaking of non-southerners, most Gujarati, Marathi and Bengali speakers will anyway understand Hindi since the vocabulary is common to a great degree. If you want to learn just any one Indian language and unless you want to restrict your travels to Tamil Nadu or some of the northeastern states of India, I would say yes, you should learn Hindi in that case.
As an aside, many of the Indian Americans I've encountered have poor skills in their ancestral tongues; all they know is American English. I do not know for how large a sample though that observation holds good.


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## rahulbemba

True... I very much agree...


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## Qureshpor

rahulbemba said:


> Urdu words in Hindi songs - it is true that all such words are not understood by the listeners. For many of the words, the meaning is not understood but the feelings in them are conveyed because words are only part of the overall experience which has many other components. In the "flow" of a song, individual words don't matter to the listeners. Why such words are inserted into Hindi songs? I think it is because the lyricists want to broaden the options available to them in order to create the best "rhyme". Hindi speakers don't mind Urdu or even Gujarati/Marathi/Bhojpuri words coming to them and hence there is no objection at all for this. Means it is no issue at all and listeners of Hindi songs don’t mind the individual insertions of other words. (You can call it part of the culture of collective tolerance for which Indians are famous).
> 
> On Tamil being an international language. Those who speak Tamil in Sri Lanka, are Tamils by race and they had migrated to Sri Lanka centuries ago. This is a controversial topic in itself.
> 
> On Bengali, again as I said if a language is restricted to one particular race or cultural/social lot/group, it won’t become an “international language”, just because many speakers from the same lot go settle in different nations. Bengali is a regional language in India, mainly concentrated in the state of West Bengal and mostly people born/broughy-up in the Bengal speak/know it. What I say is not to demean the language, as the Bengali language is a very rich one and has created wonderful literature.



Thank you for your response. To prevent a "debate", I shall stop here even though I don't necessarily agree with a number of points you have made. And this is in addition to the so called "culture of collective tolerance". Let's part with agreeing to disagree.


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## tonyspeed

Paintdrop said:


> Is it rude to assume that the vast majority of Indian Americans are fluent in Hindi? If you are an American from India, what percentage of Indian Americans would you estimate to "fluently" speak Hindi? By the way, I am fully aware that there are many languages spoken in India, such as Gujarati, Nepali, Bengali, etc.
> 
> I only ask this question because I am interested in learning a language from India, and Hindi seems to be the most widely spoken in terms of numbers. Can anyone offer some insight? Thanks a lot!
> 
> ps. I would have posted this in the cultural section, but was restricted to create a new thread for whatever reason.




I would learn Hindi because learning materials are easily available and it is SUPPOSED to be the official government language of India. But once you learn Hindi, you may feel impelled to learn several other languages
such as Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali and of course Urdu. You will find that many educated south Indians have some familiarity with Hindi and, if not, they will prefer English anyway which you already know.


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## greatbear

It IS one of the two official government languages of India, the other being English.


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## Paintdrop

Thank you for the replies. Again, my reason for choosing Hindi is strictly because of it being such a widely spoken language. If there is another Indian language that has almost as many speakers as Hindi, please let me know. Deep down, I originally had an interest in Gujariti, but I'm not sure how large the Gujarat population is here in America. Most of you have agreed that I stick with Hindi, which makes sense too if more study resources are available for them.


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## greatbear

There's a sizeable Gujarati population in USA, but any Gujarati person will understand Hindi (in fact, Gujarati is very similar to the Hindi spoken in certain rural belts of Uttar Pradesh, the "brij bhasha").


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## Paintdrop

greatbear said:


> There's a sizeable Gujarati population in USA, but any Gujarati person will understand Hindi (in fact, Gujarati is very similar to the Hindi spoken in certain rural belts of Uttar Pradesh, the "brij bhasha").



Thanks! That's good news to know! Now can you, or anyone else please briefly explain to me the difference(s) between Hindu and Urdu? From my understanding, Hindu and Urdu are both spoken the same, with the only difference being that they both have their own written scripts. Is this assertion correct, or is there more I should be aware of about Urdu before learning Hindi? I figure that if I'm going to embark on the journey of studying Hindi, I should probably know at least a few bits and pieces about how Urdu is involved.


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## rahulbemba

I have seen in these forums (on this portal), that Urdu is being promoted a lot  by some. But actually for someone who knows Hindi, knowing Urdu language becomes an enabled thing, for which you don't have to try or put an extra effort (in a way).

The background of Urdu is that when the Arab and Muslim invaders came to India, and mainly the Mughals when they settled here (earlier they used to hit and run with the war booty), their Arabic, Persian, and Turkic languages got mixed up with Hindi and Sanskrit-based local Indian languages to give birth to a new language called Urdu. Urdu is now the official language of Pakistan - the new nation created for Muslims out of divided India. Today, pure Urdu is being used in written communication by by and large only Muslims in India to communicate amongst themselves, while they use Hindi/English to communicate with non-Muslims. 

Hindi and Urdu are similar. For script, Urdu can be written either Persian-Arabic script (which most non-Muslim Indians don't understand), or in Dev-Nagri script itself - which is the script for Hindi language. Most of the times, Urdu is written in Devnagri or Hindi script and at that time there is hardly much difference between the two languages.

This, you are hearing from an Indian, born and brought up in India with Hindi as mother tongue.


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## greatbear

Of course, writing system is the single biggest difference across Hindi and Urdu, otherwise they are one and the same with different registers.

Most Urdu and Hindi speakers understand each other. Problems occur when Hindi speakers are more used to words from a different register (maybe a Sanskrit register, or even another Urdu word!) and the same with Urdu speakers. For example, when an Urdu speaker says words like those mentioned by Qureshpor in this thread, words like "anjuman," most Hindi speakers will have no idea what that means. Similarly, there's a thread on the word "nihaarnaa" (to gaze) going on right now; while it is a word very common in Hindi, many of the Urdu speakers, it appears, have no idea what the word means. There are often words which will have Sanskrit roots and won't be that familiar to Urdu speakers, like this "nihaarnaa." By the way, some of the people here on the forum claim that Sanskrit-origin words are a deliberate reengineering of Hindi; that is not the case except with certain persons (just as certain Urdu speakers try more and more to bring up some highly literary Perso-Arabic words which don't make sense to Hindi speakers): a word like "nihaarnaa" has always existed in Hindi. It is not the case that we are using it only for the sake of sounding "purer" or more Sanskritized.
Yesterday, I was surprised to hear "samachar-patra" for newspaper in a conversation which was happening among some rural Hindi-speaking people in a restaurant; I myself say "akhbaar." Or, of course, "paper." This to simply say that India is a nation with many identities, and it is NOT a melting pot (and that's a great thing, IMO) because it allows everyone - individual and community - to keep its distinct identity; hence, quibbling over registers is simply showing one's own ignorance. To reiterate, the Hindi film language hardly represents most registers of Hindi; mostly, it reflects either the Urdu register or the Bambaiyaa register, the Hindi film industry being dominated since the oldest days by Muslims and situated in Bombay (Mumbai).


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## Qureshpor

rahulbemba said:


> I have seen in these forums (on this portal), that Urdu is being promoted a lot  by some. But actually for someone who knows Hindi, knowing Urdu language becomes an enabled thing, for which you don't have to try or put an extra effort (in a way).
> 
> The background of Urdu is that when the Arab and Muslim invaders came to India, and mainly the Mughals when they settled here (earlier they used to hit and run with the war booty), their Arabic, Persian, and Turkic languages got mixed up with Hindi and Sanskrit-based local Indian languages to give birth to a new language called Urdu. Urdu is now the official language of Pakistan - the new nation created for Muslims out of divided India. Today, pure Urdu is being used in written communication by by and large only Muslims in India to communicate amongst themselves, while they use Hindi/English to communicate with non-Muslims.
> 
> Hindi and Urdu are similar. For script, Urdu can be written either Persian-Arabic script (which most non-Muslim Indians don't understand), or in Dev-Nagri script itself - which is the script for Hindi language. Most of the times, Urdu is written in Devnagri or Hindi script and at that time there is hardly much difference between the two languages.
> 
> This, you are hearing from an Indian, born and brought up in India with Hindi as mother tongue.



What a load of codswollop! It is a pity that this is a moderated forum. Mr. Rahulbemba has been rather economical with the truth and has conveniently forgotton to mention a number of things, amongst which are:

1) There are millions of Urdu mother tongue speakers in India, from all religious persuasions, probably a lot more than Pakistan. Prior to partition, most of North and Central India was dominated by Urdu speakers. It is no surprise that the British replaced Persian, the then court language, by Urdu. Even after partition, despite all odds, Urdu is the second language in the state of Uttar Pradesh, first language in Kashmir and an important language in Central India.

2) The Indian Penal Code was translated from English into Urdu, yes Urdu and not Hindi, by Deputy Nazeer Ahmed, a renowned Urdu novelist. It is known as "ta3ziraat-i-Hind" and this phrase comes up regularly in Indian Bollywood "Hindi" films. More on Hindi films later.

3) One of India's national anthems "saare jahaaN se achchhaa HindustaaN hamaaraa" is in Urdu, written by the famous Allama Sir Muhammad Iqbal. It has been adopted by the Indian Army as their anthem. The first Indian astranaut described seeing India, from space, not in a quote from a Hindi poem, but by using the first line of this poem.

4) There have been dozens of verse and prose writers of the highest calibre who were of Hindu faith (Firaq Gorakhpuri, Pandit Dayashankar Naseem, Prem Chand, just to mention three). Urdu has never been the language of Muslims alone. Please read Faruqi's article, mentioned below.


5) Modern Hindi, as we know it, came about as a result of the Hindi Movement of the 19th century. Ralph Russell, a scholar from the London School of African and Oriental Studies has described this language as "artificial". The language of Doordarshan (India's State TV), the language of All India Radio and the serial Mahabharata, for example, is not the language of the Indian "Hindi" cinema. This language, most fair-minded people would say is Urdu with a few "High Hindi" words thrown in for good measure. Most of the lyric writers for these films until fairly recently have been Urdu writers. Often the title of the film, and almost always the script and lyrics of the film are a dead giveaway as to the language of the film.


The best thing, Mr/Ms Painsdrop, is to look at what independent *scholars* have to say on this topic. Here is a start.

file:///C:/qureshi_backup/Dad's Docs/Dad's Docs/King2001.pdf 

This is a review of R.D.King's book (One Language Two Scripts), carried out by a Hindu Professor at Allahabad university.This will also tell you a thing or two about Devanagri script's beginings, amongst other things.

The link below is a talk by the renowned critic/poet Shamsur Rahman Faruqi. Please go on the net and carry out your own little search and make your own mind behind the Urdu/Hindi controversy to avoid any form of hateful propaganda!

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00fwp/srf/srf_symcretism_2008.pdf


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## rahulbemba

We should learn to tolerate others' opinions and avoid to pick on each person who has a different opinion than ours. In forums, it is a good practice to reply to the original post, rather than starting n number of debates with those who have cared to reply to the original post. 

It is true that there have been some great Urdu-poets who were Hindus (even now there are many of them). But that doesn't change the fact that "common" non-Muslims don't understand anything from the Persian script. This is what I said, and I still stand by it. For the "language" as different from script, there is not much difference between the spoken languages, except some Urdu words which non-Muslims don't understand at all - I said this much and stand by these practical facts which I think anyone in India would agree with.


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