# 您



## J.F. de TROYES

I wonder if the pronoun 您 is commonly used ; if not, is there any other way to be more polite in interrogative sentences of this kind . : 您能[FONT=Wwin_Burmese1] 帮我吗[/FONT]
[FONT=Wwin_Burmese1]Thanks for your answer.[/FONT]


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## Zulis

Je crois que le mot "您" est la même chose que "vous" en français. C'est déjà une forme polie.
I think the word "您" is the same thing as "vous" in French. It is a polite form already.

您能 帮我吗  - Pourrez-vous m'aider? (Can you help me?)
But as we all know it, there is no polite form of pronoun in English.
If you need English translation, the only way is to use "you", of course.

I hope my French is correct, and since you are native in French, I guess I'd better use "vous" as an example. "您" - "vous" is much more similar than "您" - "you"


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## univerio

"您" is certainly the polite form of "you" (somewhat equivalent, in meaning, but not so much in usage, to "vous" in French), but sometimes it sounds awkward if you use it too much. "您能帮我吗" sounds very weird perhaps because of the double nasal sound at the beginning. You just don't hear it often (from my experience). (Also, if you're already asking for a favor, you might as well "tutoyer", non? )


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## Zulis

I think 您 has much more usage in Mainland China. Me in Hong Kong I never use it.

But i think if you are asking for a favour from anyone other than your friends, its better not to tutoyer


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## J.F. de TROYES

Zulis said:


> Je crois que le mot "您" est la même chose que "vous" en français. C'est déjà une forme polie.
> I think the word "您" is the same thing as "vous" in French. It is a polite form already.
> I hope my French is correct, and since you are native in French, I guess I'd better use "vous" as an example. "您" - "vous" is much more similar than "您" - "you"


 
You are quite right about French.


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## DavidCornell

这个词在中国大陆和台湾都很常用，如果你想表示对别人的尊敬就可以用这个词，所以用不用就看你觉得是否应该对对方表示这样的尊敬。比如说对师长一般都会用您。陌生人第一次见面也是分场合的，如果是很正是的场合，也很常用。


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## J.F. de TROYES

DavidCornell said:


> 这个词在中国大陆和台湾都很常用，如果你想表示对别人的尊敬就可以用这个词，所以用不用就看你觉得是否应该对对方表示这样的尊敬。比如说对师长一般都会用您。陌生人第一次见面也是分场合的，如果是很正是的场合，也很常用。


I am sorry, my Chinese is poor . I'll try to understand your post as soon as I have enough time, but it would be very kind of you if you could send it  again in English. Thanks a lot!

----

1- So the opposition between 你 and 您 is the same as "tu" opposed to "vous" in French, but they work differently : "vous" is always used when talking to an unknown person or to any authority, whereas 你 can be used in such kind of relationship. Don't you think that Chinese expresses politness by other formal means of expression, for exemple by adding the person's title or occupation or anything else ? So is there a more polite way to say : " 你能等我吗 " ?

2- I'd like to ask you one more question about using personal pronouns. Some languages can emphasize the subject pronoun : in French "Moi, je sais ; toi, tu sais" instead of "Je sais ; tu sais" ( I myself know ; *you* know ) ; in Spanish the subject pronoun is usually dropped and used only to lay stress on : " Lo sabes ? " ( Do you know it ? ), but " Tú lo sabes ? ( Do *you* know it ? ) . What about Chinese ? Is there or not a way to emphasize the subject (or doer ) ?

Thanks again.


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## univerio

1. In Chinese, must of the politeness is expressed with body language and expression, as well as the way you talk. Being polite can mean making your request small (你能等我*一下*吗 as opposed to 你能等我吗), but most of the time it's just how you say it.

2. This is probably a separate question (forum rules), but I'll answer it anyways. In Chinese, you can only place emphasize the subject by actually verbally emphasizing it (like in English), but I think it also depends on the situation. You can, however, sometimes drop the first person subject (我) to de-emphasize it.


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## DavidCornell

J.F. de TROYES said:


> I am sorry, my Chinese is poor . I'll try  to understand your post as soon as I have enough time, but it would be  very kind of you if you could send it  again in English. Thanks a  lot!


Your question is about how people use language, so the best way to know is to observe and practice. As far as I know, when to use "nin2" is indeed a difficult question. It depends on many different variables, e.g. degree of formality, occasion, relation, and intentions. 

So you cannot compare the usage of "nin2" with "vous", because the two different cultures have different ways of showing respect.

The only rule of thumb when it comes to the proper use of "nin2" is that you should figure out how much respect you want to show to the addressee.

oh, one more thing, your original question is asking whether "nin2" is widely used in China. I think it is widely used, but probably not in the same way as "vous" is.


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## Zulis

J.F. de TROYES said:


> 1- .....  "vous" is always used when talking to an unknown person or to any authority, whereas 你 can be used in such kind of relationship.


I would say:
vous: unknown person, authority, showing respect
你: lesser extent in politness, but still can be used for unknown person, authority, showing respect
您: unknown person, authority, showing respect



J.F. de TROYES said:


> Don't you think that Chinese expresses politness by other formal means of expression, for exemple by adding the person's title or occupation or anything else ?


It will help, just like in other languages.




J.F. de TROYES said:


> 2- I'd like to ask you one more question about using personal pronouns. Some languages can emphasize the subject pronoun : in French "Moi, je sais ; toi, tu sais" instead of "Je sais ; tu sais" ( I myself know ; *you* know ) ;


In my opinion, you can use '"當然" between the subject and the verb. eg:
Moi, je suis - Me, I know - 我當然知道



J.F. de TROYES said:


> in Spanish the subject pronoun is usually dropped and used only to lay stress on : " Lo sabes ? " ( Do you know it ? ), but " Tú lo sabes ? ( Do *you* know it ? ) . What about Chinese ? Is there or not a way to emphasize the subject (or doer ) ?


To my knowledge Chinese verbs do not change according to subjects, so unless I am proven wrong, I believe that the subject is absolutely needed in a sentence if you want to be clear. You cannot drop subject pronouns like in Spanish. 



DavidCornell said:


> oh, one more thing, your original question is asking whether "nin2" is widely used in China. I think it is widely used, but probably not in the same way as "vous" is.



To me "vous" and "您" is comparable and used in a more or less the same way, would you mind explaining?


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## DavidCornell

Zulis said:


> I would say:
> To me "vous" and "您" is comparable and used in a more or less the same way, would you mind explaining?


I agree they are "more or less the same", but if you translate every "vous" into "nin2" that will be inappropriate in some cases. E.g. I think it is probably equally often for people to use "nin2" between strangers. You can say 你能帮我一下吗 to a stranger who is of similar age. On the other hand natives of Beijing use 您 more often than others. I have heard people say 您 to close friends. Even for myself, sometimes I have to think for a moment which word to use in a certain situation. It is not an easy choice. Even if you know how to use "vous", the situations and conventions of using these two words are still different for the French people and for the Chinese people respectivley. 

and I think univerio has expressed the same opinion:


univerio said:


> "您" is certainly the polite form of "you" (somewhat equivalent, in meaning, but not so much in usage, to "vous" in French), but sometimes it sounds awkward if you use it too much.


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## Zulis

^Understood and agreed


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## avlee

I couldn't remember when I used that particular character before. Nevertheless, to me, it's rather a ceremonial word applied to present your respect toward some big gun (not to a group of people). In the northern area of mainland, from the TV plays, we could see people use that word when they're speaking to an elderly or senior guy to show both respect and intimiate relationship. 
At least in Yangtze river delta covering Wuhan, Nanjing, Wuxi, Suzhou and Shanghai, I barely hear people say that in daily conversations. Just like Latin words, knowing the meaning of it is fairly enough. And no need to worry your head about how and where to use it. 'Cause the difference is so small that you can totally neglect it. (Psalmists or poets may enjoy using the word while composing their marsterpieces.)
Hope the above helped you some.


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## J.F. de TROYES

多谢大家  !

I really appreciate all your answers due to the range of various points of view. I must say that in French too the dividing line between using "vous" or "tu" is'nt always clear-cut. Just recently the minister of the Foreign Office asked all his colleagues to call him by his first name and to say "tu" to him, what is unusual indeed; they all agreed, except one : "Allow me to keep on calling you " Mr minister" and using "vous", he said. I think young French people tend to say "tu" more easily than older ones .


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## Blootix

您 is almost never used in daily conversations because it's too formal.  Usually, it is only used in a professional situation where someone is talking to their client.  Northern regions of China also use it to refer to the elderly.  In southern regions, it's usually not used in daily speech because it makes you seem pedantic.


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## J.F. de TROYES

Thanks a lot to all.          多谢大家都 !


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## kareno999

Blootix said:


> 您 is almost never used in daily conversations because it's too formal. Usually, it is only used in a professional situation where someone is talking to their client. Northern regions of China also use it to refer to the elderly. In southern regions, it's usually not used in daily speech because it makes you seem pedantic.


People from southern China seldom use "nin" because there is no equivalent in their native dialect. They are simply not used to it.


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## Zulis

kareno999 said:


> People from southern China seldom use "nin" because there is no equivalent in their native dialect. They are simply not used to it.



Yes, and in spoken Cantonese 您 doesnt exist 
I personally have never used it in writing either.


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## kareno999

Zulis said:


> Yes, and in spoken Cantonese 您 doesnt exist
> I personally have never used it in writing either.


Nor in Shanghainese.
But this doesn't shake its position in Mandarin, which is based on Beijing dialect anyway. Let's just say that not everyone speaks perfect Mandarin .


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## palomnik

J.F. de TROYES said:


> 1- So the opposition between 你 and 您 is the same as "tu" opposed to "vous" in French, but they work differently : "vous" is always used when talking to an unknown person or to any authority, whereas 你 can be used in such kind of relationship. Don't you think that Chinese expresses politness by other formal means of expression, for exemple by adding the person's title or occupation or anything else ? So is there a more polite way to say : " 你能等我吗 " ?
> Thanks again.


 
At one time, a couple of generations ago, Chinese had a great number of polite expressions, such as 久仰 － 比此, 不送, etc., but these have all practically disappeared from everyday speech; the collapse of the old order seems to have encouraged their demise, and politeness is more often expressed by body language any more.  I've often found it curious that Japanese, by contrast, has retained a bewildering variety of polite expressions and may even have more today than they had fifty years ago.


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## J.F. de TROYES

palomnik said:


> At one time, a couple of generations ago, Chinese had a great number of polite expressions, such as 久仰 － 比此, 不送, etc., but these have all practically disappeared from everyday speech; the collapse of the old order seems to have encouraged their demise, and politeness is more often expressed by body language any more. I've often found it curious that Japanese, by contrast, has retained a bewildering variety of polite expressions and may even have more today than they had fifty years ago.


 
I did'nt know this difference you are pointing to ; its seems to me very interesting and may reveal divergent tendencies between both countries and societies to deal with tradition and modernity.


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## DavidCornell

J.F. de TROYES said:


> I did'nt know this difference you are  pointing to ; its seems to me very interesting and may reveal divergent  tendencies between both countries and societies to deal with tradition  and modernity.


I heard that the French "vous" is used less often than before also. Is it true? A French Canadian told me that they only use "vous" in an official setting, e.g.  business correspondence.


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## J.F. de TROYES

DavidCornell said:


> I heard that the French "vous" is used less often than before also. Is it true? A French Canadian told me that they only use "vous" in an official setting, e.g. business correspondence.


 
Sorry to be a bit off-topic by being unable to answer you in Chinese !

It's not the same in France where "vous" is always used when addressing a stranger in any public place or a salesman in a store. But generally speaking you're right insofar as among young people "tu" is always used even at a first meeting ; in the business world too colleagues adress each other with "tu" more  often than before. I recently came across a forum where a French girl tells : "My new boss tried to use "tu" ; I was surprised because he had'nt asked me to do so before ; so I kept on saying "vous" to him and now he always does the same.Do you think "tu" shows sympathy or superiority ? " This is a revealing anecdot : "you" is still related to a hierarchical world and "tu" to a "buddy-buddy" world.


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## DavidCornell

^merci beaucoup. c'est très utile.


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## yuechu

您 is a very interesting word..
For those of you who use the word often in everyday life (I think only 北京人 do, right? or is it most of 北方?) : If you are asking a stranger a question on the street (ex. 去火车站怎么走, 等等), is it appropriate to use 您 with all strangers? (aged 18+ ?) or is it best to use it only with people who are the same age as one's parents/grandparents?

Also, are there any situations where an older person would use "您" with a much younger person? (younger person uses 您 with older person, older person uses 你 back? or would both usually use 您 with each other if they are strangers and want to show politeness? as in, is this form of politeness more often reciprical/equal, or hierarchical in nature?)

Thanks!


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## Youngfun

Beijingers are famous for using 您 even when arguing and insulting people.  And 骂人不带脏字.


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