# learn the hard way



## JarekSteliga

Please help me elegantly translate this into Polish. I have racked my brain without much to show for it. I know what it means, but cannot come up with an equivalent coined, collocation like, Polish expression.


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## majlo

Kontekst, kontekst, kontekst. Please.


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## Ben Jamin

JarekSteliga said:


> Please help me elegantly translate this into Polish. I have racked my brain without much to show for it. I know what it means, but cannot come up with an equivalent coined, collocation like, Polish expression.


“Kosztowna nauka” lub  “nauka, za którą trzeba było drogo zapłacić” to dwie możliwości przetłumaczenia. Jeżeli chciałeś koniecznie  użyć czasownika „uczyć się”, to wydaje mi się, że nie ma odpowiednika.


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## LilianaB

Za lekcje się płaci. Okupione krwią, more drastic.


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## majlo

> “Kosztowna nauka”


_Michał studiuje na prywatnej uczelni, gdzie czesne wynosi 3000 złotych miesięcznie. To iście kosztowna nauka.
_


> “nauka, za którą trzeba było drogo zapłacić”


_
Jw.
_


> Za lekcje się płaci.


_
- Witam. Ile kosztuje u pana godzina korepetycji?
- 70 zł.
- Ojej, ale drogo!
- No cóż, za lekcje się płaci.
_
Either you've jumped the gun with your replies or I don't understand the epxression "to learn the hard way" correctly. Or, the last option, you don't understand it.


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## LilianaB

Za lekcje się płaci is an old proverb. I thought that it is till around because it used to be a popular proverb.


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## dn88

A quick Google search led me to "przekonać się (o czymś) na własnej skórze". In some contexts "uczyć się na błędach" could work, too.


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## LilianaB

Yes, these are great. They used to be almost self-evident some years ago, very popular. The one with lessons is: Za lekcje trzeba placic.


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## dreamlike

I couldn't agree with you more, dn88. Let's take a look at the expression employed in the sentence. The following comes from TheFreeDictionary:


> I found out the hard way that it's difficult to work and go to school at the same time.


(I think that "found" could easily be replaced with "learned")

"Przekonałem się na własnej skórze" works just fine here.


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## JarekSteliga

dn88 said:


> A quick Google search led me to "przekonać się (o czymś) na własnej skórze". In some contexts "uczyć się na błędach" could work, too.



Many thanks dn88. That's what I call hitting the nail on the head .  Scares me that I could not figure any of these out myself.

Still, some aspects of the original English expression fall through the cracks. 

Example: "I had been learning English the hard way"  (that is to say without the help of teachers or any access to live language and to cap it all in the 1980s when in Poland even original English texts were hard to come by and some really determined learners had tried to make some sense out of BBC broadcasts on shorwave radio amid very annoying interference hisses - in short a far cry from what is available to learners at present).

Your suggested translations make me think of the following: "Uczyłem się angielskiego metodą prób i błędów"? or "... w pocie czoła" or "...na hybił trafił" or "... bez żadnych podpuch"


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## dreamlike

Jarek, I don't want to sound impolite, but it seems like you have neglected your Polish in favour of English  Let me point out a major spelling mistake you made. It should be: na *c*hybił trafił. 

As for the issue at hand, I think your understanding of the English phrase is not quite right. It sounds like you are forcing the phrase "learn the hard way" into the sentence with learning English. Here are dictionary entries for "learn the hard way":


> - to find out how to behave by learning from your mistakes or from unpleasant experiences, rather than from being told [OED]
> - If you learn something the hard way, you learn from unpleasant experiences rather than by being taught [Cambridge]



If I were to say to say learning English was an ordeal for me, because, for instance, I wasn't exposed to live language and materials were not as readily available as they are now, I would probably go for different expression. "Learn the hard way" doesn't really work here, to my mind. Although I can understand the urge to use it with learning languages, because of the verb "learn". 

I would understand your sentence the following way: I comitted a lot of linguistic blunders and were a laughing stock for making funny mistakes. People were taunting me about it and pointing out the errors that I had made. That's how I learned English. 

You can try looking for sample sentences to enhance your understanding of this phrase.


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## ewie

dreamlike said:


> I would understand your sentence the following way: I comitted a lot of linguistic blunders and were a laughing stock for making funny mistakes. People were taunting me about it and pointing out the errors that I had made. That's how I learned English.


 ... or even worse than that: "My English master was a sadist and used to beat us all until we got it right."


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## kknd

w tym wypadku coś a'la _mieć pod górkę_ powinno być lepsze; w podanym kontekście chyba idealne sprawdzi się _bez taryfy ulgowej_.


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## LilianaB

Yes, I agree. I think Jarek should have used something like: it was very hard for me to learn English since X; the conditions in Poland before 1980 were unfavorable to learning English, or something similar. #12.


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## dreamlike

That's a worst case scenario, Ewie  

Na Polski zdanie Jarka bym przetłumaczył w ten sposób: "Nauka angielskiego była dla mnie ciężką przeprawą". Przy czym czytając angielskie zdanie można się domyślać powodów takiego stanu rzeczy, w Polskim tych powodów może być na pęczki.


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## JarekSteliga

dreamlike said:


> Jarek, I don't want to sound impolite, but it seems like you have neglected your Polish in favour of English  Let me point out a major spelling mistake you made. It should be: na *c*hybił trafił.



I plead guilty as charged. And thank you for being both vigillant and mercifull. You could have left not a "sucha nitka" on me for this 

I found this sentence in the British National Corpus: "It's most satisfying to suddenly recognize an easier way of doing something you've been doing the hard way for ages!"

This example leads me to believe that the way I used the expression in my sentence: "I had been learning English the hard way" was NOT improper or misleading. "The unpleasant experiences" reffered to by both Cambridge and OED in their definitions of the expression, in my case consisted in the frustrations resulting from lack of learning materials. The second part of both Cambridge and OED definitions refers to the absence of tuition or instruction which aspect also fits squarely into the situation which I am describing. 

I would now like to recap the translations which were contributed by different people in this discussion and which I find most apt.

(uczyć się)bez taryfy ulgowej
mieć pod górkę (ucząc się)
przekonać się o czymś na własnej skórze (jak to jest, czyli uczyć się)
uczyć się na własnych błędach (a więc bez pomocy nauczyciela, instruktora)
musieć do wszystkiego dochodzić samemu (jak wyżej)
uczyć się metodą prób i błędów (jak wyżej)


Thank you all


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## dreamlike

Well, I've seen even more egregious errors on this board, so it didn't come as a great shock to me. Besides, I allowed for the possibility that you might suffer from some spelling problems, which we refer to as "dysortografia" in Polish. But then again there's a spell checker in every internet browser... Ok, let's give it a rest. 

As for the phrase under discussion, Camridge's Dictionary makes a distinction between *learning the hard way *and *doing something the hard way. *


> *the hard way*
> • a way of doing something which is unnecessarily difficult
> She always does things the hard way.
> • If you learn something the hard way, you learn from unpleasant experiences rather than by being taught
> If she won't listen, she'll have to learn/find out the hard way



I think your sentence takes on the first meaning - in which case, the learner oneself makes it difficult for him/her to learn English. It can also have the second meaning, depending on one's intepretation. Then it would mean something to the effect I and Ewie suggested. 

I'll stick to my guns - if I were to say that it was difficult for me to learn English owing to lack of materials, I would use some other expression. If only to avoid ambiguity.


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## majlo

Post it in the English Only forum, Jarek. You'll find out whether it sounds natural or not to thw WR native speakers crew.


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## LilianaB

I agree with Dreamlike that none of the expressions mentioned is perfect in this context. He might have been referring to your original expression, only, but I really think none of them is perfect.


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## dreamlike

What does "thw" stand for, majlo? *I had been learning English the hard way *doesn't have the meaning of *It proved difficult for me to learn English because I didn't have access to proper materials -* it's pretty apparent after the lecture of dictionary entries and sample sentences. That being said, it might be worthwhile to post in the English section and ask natives what do they make of that.


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## majlo

dreamlike said:


> What does "thw" stand for, majlo?



The hot wife.


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## Ben Jamin

majlo said:


> _Michał studiuje na prywatnej uczelni, gdzie czesne wynosi 3000 złotych miesięcznie. To iście kosztowna nauka.
> 
> Jw.
> 
> - Witam. Ile kosztuje u pana godzina korepetycji?
> - 70 zł.
> - Ojej, ale drogo!
> - No cóż, za lekcje się płaci.
> _
> Either you've jumped the gun with your replies or I don't understand the epxression "to learn the hard way" correctly. Or, the last option, you don't understand it.



There is also another option, you do not understand that “zapłacić drogo” has also a figurative meaning. If a big strong guy whose girlfriend went with you says “drogo mi za to zapłacisz”, do not expect that he means an amount of money.


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## dreamlike

majlo said:


> The hot wife.



Do they like being referred to as "the hot wives" or you were joshing me?


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## LilianaB

Where did you get the thw Dreamlike from. There is nothing wrong with the word hot, at least in AE.


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## majlo

Ben Jamin said:


> There is also another option, you do not understand that “zapłacić drogo” has also a figurative meaning. If a big strong guy whose girlfriend went with you says “drogo mi za to zapłacisz”, do not expect that he means an amount of money.



Agreed. But I don't think it works in this context.


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## dreamlike

There's an element of sexual innuendo in the expression "The Hot Wives" - you can see it at a glance, it leapt out at me when I read it... it's something I would expect to see on some porn page, I guess. 

"Drogo za coś zapłacić" is not the closest translation of "learn the hard way", which in most cases translates as "Przekonać się o czymś na własnej skórze". I would even go so far as to say it's inapplicable in the translation of this phrase. It becomes clear after reading sample sentences.


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## LilianaB

A hot woman can mean just a beautiful woman, sexy. It does not  have to do anything with pornography. Most likely she will not be dressed in an Amish dress, though.


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## dreamlike

Try googling "The Hot Wives" and see what kind of results you get. I won't talk some sense into you about that, just as I was unable to do about many other things, so just google it.. or post in the English forum, for that matter.


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## LilianaB

http://www.allleftturns.com/nascars-finest-shameless-excuse-ogle-hot-women

Nothing pornographic about hot. It may be used by some sites in this way. Do you claim that a hot male is pornographic too?


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## dreamlike

Don't be preposterous, Liliana. Most of the results are not as prudish as the one you, conveniently, decided to choose. I will not stoop so low as to post these pornographic links just to prove my point - you can see it for yourself after google search...


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## LilianaB

Why should they be prudish? I did not say it had anything to do with prudish. I just said that a hot woman or a hot girl did  not have to be related to pornography.


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## dreamlike

Liliana, do you have trouble comprehending the text you read? Either that or you simply don't make the effort to read others posts carefully. 


> *Most of** the **results** are not as prudish as the one you*, conveniently, decided to choose.



I allowed myself to be sarcastic - none of the results you get after googling the phrase "the hot wives" are prudish, but the one you posted is certainly prudish compared to others...


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## LilianaB

Your language is too arrogant Dreamlike for this forum. I know you are a nice person but it comes across as very arrogant. Try writing like this on the English only forum, and see what happens. I just meant the previous post, not all your posts. I don't think the results I posted were prudish at all: have you ever seen a women in a prudish style? I am not sure if short sleeves are allowed by that style.


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## dreamlike

Liliana, I always try hard to keep my composure, but my patience simply wears thin with your posts. Sometimes, having a discussion with you is not an easy thing to do. It seems like you don't even bother to read my posts or twist my words. 

As for your results, of course that women in skimpy clothes don't qualify as "prudish", they are the exact opposite... but if you compare these photos to other results you get after googling "The Hot Wives", they are prudish. That was my point.

We were discussing the phrase "The Hot Wives", not "a hot woman" or "a hot girl". The last two are indeed devoid of pornographic connotations, but the phrase "The Hot Wives" is full of sexual innuendo and is popular with pornographic sites - which becomes clear when you look it up in Google.


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## NotNow

Dreamlike, why do you take the trouble to respond to foolish posts?  If you ignore them, perhaps they will stop.


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## dreamlike

I wouldn't hold my breath for it, NotNow.


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## JarekSteliga

majlo said:


> Post it in the English Only forum, Jarek. You'll find out whether it sounds natural or not to thw WR native speakers crew.




Thank you majlo for suggesting it. Being none to pleased with the response, I now have to take my hat off to all of you who smelled a rat in my example sentece.   Today I learned the hard way that "learn the hard way" simply doesn't mean what I had thought it did (meaning that today I had to swallow my pride which is an unpleasant experience). "Learn the hard way" cannot be used progressively, but rather with reference to a one off situation. 

Example: "Yesterday I learned the hard way to always check the fuel in the car. It took me half an hour to walk to the nearest fuel station and another half hour to walk back to the car with a canister"

I believe in Polish this could be expressed thus:

"Wczoraj boleśnie się przekonałem..."
"Wczoraj przekonałem się na własnej skórze..."
and perhaps also
"Wczoraj życie mnie nauczyło ..."
"Wczoraj dostałem lekcję ..."

but with my Polish having been somewhat neglected recently, I am not even sure if the last two proposed translations are naturally sounding Polish.


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## majlo

Wow, quite a discussion I've sparked off! 

Dreamlike, please, tell me you didn't really fail to grasp that 'thw' was a typo?


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## Ben Jamin

majlo said:


> Wow, quite a discussion I've sparked off!
> 
> Dreamlike, please, tell me you didn't really fail to grasp that 'thw' was a typo?



A typo? Such a perfectionist making typos?


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## dreamlike

You seem to be content with yourself for triggering unnecessary discussion just because you didn't bother to correct the typo you made. Did it give you good laugh?

Of course, I should've noticed it was a typo, "w" is in proximity to "e" on the keybord, but somehow it went unnoticed.

Not a nice thing to do, majlo.


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## BezierCurve

Cicho już, bo przyjdzie pani i porozstawia nas po kątach.


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## dreamlike

To nie ja wywołałem off-topic i uznałem, że śmiesznie będzie wprowadzić kogoś w błąd. Majlo ma najwyraźniej bardzo osobliwe poczucie humoru...


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## Ben Jamin

dreamlike said:


> To nie ja wywołałem off-topic i uznałem, że śmiesznie będzie wprowadzić kogoś w błąd. Majlo ma najwyraźniej bardzo osobliwe poczucie humoru...



"Netykieta" wymaga żeby nie ośmieszać ani nie wyszydzać innych uczestników. Poprawiać błedy należy też taktownie, i tylko po to aby kogoś czegoś nauczyć .


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## dreamlike

Do czyjego zachowania się Pan w swoim poście odnosi?


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## majlo

Ben Jamin said:


> A typo? Such a perfectionist making typos?


Where did I ever say I was a perfectionist? You'd better stop taking whatever you're taking there. 



BezierCurve said:


> Cicho już, bo przyjdzie pani i porozstawia nas po kątach.


Chyba pan. Pan BenJamin. 

Dreamlike, yes, it did give me a good laugh.


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