# fishwife, fishmonger



## audiolaik

Hello,

I turn to you, because I have a spot of bother as to the use of the following word, namely "fishwife". According to this source, the word in question has only one meaning: 



> noun [C]  plural fishwives UK OLD-FASHIONED
> a loud,  unpleasant woman


However, that source provides two possibilities: 



> a) a woman who sells fish
> b) a coarse-mannered, vulgar-tongued woman.


So, is the word really old-fashioned? Does "fishmonger" refer to both sexes? Finally, why is _fish _associated with something negative?

Thank you!


----------



## Gwan

I definitely would not call my local female fishmonger (if I had one) a fishwife. Both meanings are old-fashioned, but I would only expect to see it (in literature) with the negative meaning.

Interestingly, the OED only gives the 'woman who sells fish' definition, but it has a quotation: 1662  J. DAVIES tr. _Olearius' Voy. Amb._ 80 "They..abuse one another like Fish-wives." I think it's specifically fishwives who were thought of as being loud, vulgar etc., not that 'fish' necessarily has any negative connotations.


----------



## panjandrum

I had no idea that _fishwife _meant a woman who sells fish.
I won't be trying out on the women who sell fish at my local market!


----------



## Loob

What ho, audio!

_Fishmonger_: person (m or f) who sells fish.

_Fishwife_: coarse-mannered, vulgar-tongued, loud, unpleasant woman.

Why? I don't know. Possibly something to do with the women who processed fish in factories?

I will ponder further....

PS: it's definitely old-fashioned...


----------



## audiolaik

Loob said:


> _Fishmonger_: person (m or f) who sells fish.
> 
> _Fishwife_: coarse-mannered, vulgar-tongued, loud, unpleasant woman.



Auntie is back!

What about the other meaning? (woman selling fish)


----------



## lablady

Warning: This is just a guess with no basis in anything I was able to find.

I suspect that the original fishwives actually _were_ women who sold fish. With the idea that the fish must be sold quickly or risk spoiling, the fishwives would yell loudly so as to attract attention to their wares and hopefully, earn a living. Adding further to the thought: perhaps the association with the sailors on the dock led to the tendency toward unladylike speech and behavior. 

I think that original definition then led to the idea that a woman who screams and shouts loudly would be acting like a fishwife- and women who scream and yell _can_ sometimes be thought of as disagreeable and unpleasant. 

It may have become old-fashioned because, in the US at least, many people buy their fish from a store instead of from a fishwife hawking her wares. 

Again, this may be just my logical-thinking, scientific brain in overdrive. Maybe someone can find some evidence to prove or disprove my theory.


----------



## audiolaik

lablady said:


> Warning: This is just a guess with no basis in anything I was able to find.
> 
> I suspect that the original fishwives actually _were_ women who sold fish. With the idea that the fish must be sold quickly or risk spoiling, the fishwives would yell loudly so as to attract attention to their wares and hopefully, earn a living. Adding further to the thought: perhaps the association with the sailors on the dock led to the tendency toward unladylike speech and behavior.
> 
> I think that original definition then led to the idea that a woman who screams and shouts loudly would be acting like a fishwife- and women who scream and yell _can_ sometimes be thought of as disagreeable and unpleasant.
> 
> It may have become old-fashioned because, in the US at least, many people buy their fish from a store instead of from a fishwife hawking her wares.
> 
> Again, this may be just my logical-thinking, scientific brain in overdrive. Maybe someone can find some evidence to prove or disprove my theory.




So, is it more history than semantics?


----------



## Thomas1

audiolaik said:


> [...] Finally, why is _fish _associated with something negative?[...]


I think that it's their smell that may be unpleasant to (some) people.

EDIT: encarta says that the meaning fishmonger is archaic:
2. *woman fish seller: *a woman selling fish 			( 			archaic 			) 		
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861611803


----------



## lablady

audiolaik said:


> So, is it more history than semantics?


Maybe. I can't find anything definitive either way. I was just trying to come up with a somewhat logical, reasonable link between the two definitions.


----------



## Gwan

Your opinion, lablady, gibes with what Wikipedia has to say on the subject (which appears to be based on an academic article, but I don't have access to it). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishwife


----------



## lablady

Ah, look what I found. My over-thinking brain may not be far off.

Click here.


----------



## pickarooney

For what it's worth, the French term for a loud, obnoxious woman is the same word as for fishmonger. They'd be heavy-set women, wives of sailors, used to a hard day's work an no strangers to foul language, down by the docks, bawling out their wares. It's not that hard to see the association, really.


----------



## Thomas1

Nice try, Lablady, thanks for the link to you and Gwan. 

Now the a question is: why isn't fishmonger used in a similarly negative sense?


----------



## ewie

A few months ago (this is a true story, by the way) I was standing in the checkout queue at a local supermarket here in Lovely Manchester.  The woman behind me in the queue was having a conversation with another woman in a queue about 10 feet away: _it was not quiet_.  Both women, it was easy to tell, actually worked _in_ the supermarket.  The one behind me was _especially_ loud, common, raucous, etc.
Eventually I turned round to get a look at this _fishwife_ ~ I had actually thought to myself, "This one makes enough racket for a fishwife" ~ and lo and behold, she was in her uniform and wearing her badge: _Betty Haddock, Fish Department_.

(Okay, I made the name up, my memory's not that good.)


----------



## audiolaik

Thomas1 said:


> Now the a question is: why isn't fish monger used in a similarly negative sense?



They were not so loud and ill-mannered.


----------



## Gwan

My guess would be there was historically a divide fishmonger=male, fishwife=female and it's the old story of traits such as loudness, swearing, whatever being seen as neutral/admirable in men and negative in women. This is partly borne out by the OED for 'fishmonger' which has this quote: *1594* PLAT _Jewell-ho._ I. 9 This maketh the Fishmongers Wiues so wanton.
which suggests fishmongers were traditionally seen as male and it was their wives who got the bad press.


----------



## lablady

Thomas1 said:


> Now the a question is: why isn't fishmonger used in a similarly negative sense?


 
Actually, -monger _is_ thought of as negative, though not quite in the same way. I wouldn't call anyone a monger of anything nowadays.

From my link above:





> Today, monger is used most often as a more abstract synonym of peddler and trafficker, _when referring to something negative that is being promulgated_.


(italics added)

Edit: I really like Gwan's explanation.


----------



## Thomas1

lablady said:


> Actually, -monger _is_ thought of as negative, though not quite in the same way. I wouldn't call anyone a monger of anything nowadays.
> 
> From my link aboveitalics added)


Yes, that was also one of the reasons I asked, it seemed strange to me.





> Edit: I really like Gwan's explanation.


Seems plausible.


----------



## Ann O'Rack

I don't see a negative connotation nowadays with the word "fishmonger" as a specialist seller of fish. In fact, if you want to get really _good_ fish rather than some pre-packed, frozen Bird's Eye pap from the supermarket, then a local fishmonger is worth his weight in gold. (If you like the taste of fish, of course...) And if you're talking about someone who sells fish (even the bloke - or woman - at the fish counter in the local Tesco who does actually know how to fillet a herring) then you could happily call him or her a fishmonger without risk of being punched.

I haven't heard the term "fishwife" or "fish-wife" used in conversation _ever_. It's far too antiquated a word to be commonly recognised, and if used as an insult directed at someone like Vicky Pollard (a very uncouth, loud-mouthed comedy character on British telly, supposed to be aged about 15) then the recipient of the insult would look at you blankly and wouldn't have a clue you were insulting her!


----------



## ewie

Ann O'Rack said:


> It's far too antiquated a word to be commonly recognised


Thanks Ann.  No really, thanks.  I only felt about 90 before reading this.  Now I feel at least 155


----------



## JulianStuart

lablady said:


> Actually, -monger _is_ thought of as negative, though not quite in the same way. I wouldn't call anyone a monger of anything nowadays.
> 
> From my link above...



That link also includes the statement that _in the UK_ ironmonger and fishmonger are still in _common_ use (cheesemonger may still survive, too) as simple descriptors of honest folk, but OED supports the notion that all other mongers are up to no good


----------



## Ann O'Rack

I'm sorry, ewie, but if you look more closely I was using the word "commonly" about Vicky Pollard, not about you. If you recognised the word then clearly you're not common!

(Phew!)


----------



## natkretep

I'm reviving this thread because the term _fishmonger _was raised in another thread, where it is strictly speaking off-topic. AmE speakers have said that the term is hardly used there:



Cagey said:


> As far as I know, all our fishmongers are in folk songs. We buy fish at fish markets, or seafood stores, or places like that.





ribran said:


> I wouldn't say that fishmongers are unheard of in the United States; instead, I would say that our relative unfamiliarity with the term stems from the fact that it is a rare neighborhood, at least in Texas, that has a fishmonger's. We usually buy fish at supermarkets.



I understand that fish in the US is now mainly bought from supermarkets - but presumably there are still counters in the supermarket where you might ask for your fish to be filleted and gutted or similar? I would still call that person the _fishmonger _in the supermarket. What would this person be called in AmE? Or is there nobody performing that role?

Secondly, if AmE travelled outside of the US and encountered fishmonger's shops or stalls, would they use some other term like fish seller, fish shop/store, fish stall?


----------



## se16teddy

Loob said:


> Possibly something to do with the women who processed fish in factories?


I would say it had more to do with social attitudes to working women.  I have heard_ fishwives _used in a historical context to refer to the large numbers of women who in the 19th and early 20th centuries travelled up and down the ports on the eastern side of Britain gutting and packing herring, following the fishing fleets.  By all accounts, they were a formidable lot.


----------



## ribran

natkretep said:


> I would still call that person the _fishmonger _in the supermarket.  What would this person be called in AmE?




Like you, natkretep, I would call that person a _fishmonger_, and I don't think I'm alone in that. 



natkretep said:


> Or is there nobody performing that role?



Usually, there is a whole team of people performing this role, so there often isn't a single person with whom to associate the word. 



natkretep said:


> Secondly, if AmE travelled outside of the US and encountered fishmonger's shops or stalls, would they use some other term like fish seller, fish shop/store, fish stall?



Definitely "fishmongers." I wouldn't know what else to call them.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

I agree that fishwives, more than fishmongers, seem to have a bad reputation, for swearing and screaming, judging from the standard similes. I have long been familiar with the use of the term for a woman who sells fish, perhaps particularly because of Mark Twain's spectacular piece mocking the gender habits of the German language, in which a fishwife (neuter in German) is the neuter equivalent of a hero/heroine:

_Ah the poor Fishwife, it is stuck fast in the Mire; it has dropped its Basket of Fishes; and its Hands have been cut by the Scales as it seized some of the falling Creatures; and one Scale has even got into its Eye, and it cannot get her out.

_Twain clearly expected his readers to know that a fishwife is a woman who sells fish, and that fishscales are feminine in German. There's a good moment towards the end when a Tomcat (female in German!) appears and causes havoc.


----------



## natkretep

Thanks, Ribran, for responding to my particular questions. So AmE isn't really _that_​ different!


----------



## Fabulist

In American supermarkets, fresh fish is usually sold in or adjacent to fresh meat, and any personnel behind the counter work with both.  American supermarkets also can have special departments, with their own sales clerks, for other types of food, such as baked goods.  I don't think we have a special term for someone who works in each department of a supermarket wrapping and pricing the items within that department.  I think that if I asked for "the fishmonger," no one would know what I was talking about, even if there was a fish department with its own counter, scales, and pricing machine, separate from the [bird and mammal] meat department.


----------



## Curt Jugg

lablady said:


> Actually, -monger _is_ thought of as negative, though not quite in the same way. I wouldn't call anyone a monger of anything nowadays.
> 
> From my link aboveitalics added)
> 
> Edit: I really like Gwan's explanation.



What about _ironmonger?_


----------



## JulianStuart

JulianStuart said:


> That link also includes the statement that _in the UK_ ironmonger and fishmonger are still in _common_ use (cheesemonger may still survive, too) as simple descriptors of honest folk, but OED supports the notion that all other mongers are up to no good


 


Curt Jugg said:


> What about _ironmonger?_


Curt, That was tucked away in my post quoted above!


----------



## Curt Jugg

Sorry, Julian, I missed that completely.


----------



## JulianStuart

Fabulist said:


> In American supermarkets, fresh fish is usually sold in or adjacent to fresh meat, and any personnel behind the counter work with both.  American supermarkets also can have special departments, with their own sales clerks, for other types of food, such as baked goods.  I don't think we have a special term for someone who works in each department of a supermarket wrapping and pricing the items within that department.  I think that if I asked for "the fishmonger," no one would know what I was talking about, even if there was a fish department with its own counter, scales, and pricing machine, separate from the [bird and mammal] meat department.


I think the whole point of the current use of "fishmonger" is that they are no part of the "supermarket" world you describe, they are more specialized and less globalized!  It is used sometimes in the US.
From the SF Chronicle


> Surprising as it may seem, Alice Waters wasn't always obsessed with finding the perfect peach. When her restaurant Chez Panisse opened in Berkeley, there were no foragers at her fingertips. Nor were there fishmongers, artisan bakers or organic farmers.


 There probably aren't many left, and therefore the word doesn't get used as much.
There is another article in today's Chron referring to fishmongers - independent fish selling people on the seafront in Seoul (can't link till tomorrow!).
I agree with the general dictionary definition of "Fishmonger (_Chiefly British_) .....


----------



## Glenfarclas

natkretep said:


> I understand that fish in the US is now mainly bought from supermarkets - but presumably there are still counters in the supermarket where you might ask for your fish to be filleted and gutted or similar? I would still call that person the _fishmonger _in the supermarket. What would this person be called in AmE?



Not I.  To me, the essence of mongering of any sort is that one _sells_, _peddles_, or _deals in_ the good at issue.  A grocery store fish-counter guy doesn't monger fish, he just cuts it and wraps it up.


----------



## natkretep

Glenfarclas said:


> Not I.  To me, the essence of mongering of any sort is that one _sells_, _peddles_, or _deals in_ the good at issue.  A grocery store fish-counter guy doesn't monger fish, he just cuts it and wraps it up.



But somebody must still deal with scaling, gutting, filleting, cutting the fish into steaks and so on. Is this person not called the fishmonger in the US?


----------



## Glenfarclas

natkretep said:


> But somebody must still deal with scaling, gutting, filleting, cutting the fish into steaks and so on. Is this person not called the fishmonger in the US?



Scaling, gutting, filleting, cutting, etc.: none of these amounts to mongering.  After all, at industrial fish-processing facilities, they have lots of people who do all of these tasks -- I don't assume you would call them all fishmongers?


----------



## Cagey

I asked the man who works behind the seafood counter at my local super market.  He is committed to fish.  When he has time off from selling them, he goes fishing for them (the latter, for his own use).

He says that his friends call him 'fish monger'  (I think he likes it.) So the name hasn't entirely died out, though it isn't much used in ordinary conversation.


----------



## Andygc

natkretep said:


> But somebody must still deal with scaling, gutting, filleting, cutting the fish into steaks and so on. Is this person not called the fishmonger in the US?


I don't know about the US, but if he is not selling the fish then he or she is not a fishmonger in the UK. If that somebody is a woman, that sounds like a description of a _fishwife_.


----------



## fuzzy logician

Curt Jugg said:


> What about _ironmonger?_


My somewhat old-fashioned boss laments the decline of _costermonger _as a common term.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

To address the part of the question which is concerned with vulgarity: I suspect that selling fish is quite a tough job, often requiring one to be both cold and wet, and gutting fish, which often has to be done on the spot, is quite a messy business; no messier than eviscerating a chicken, I suppose, but fish are wetter and have a particular smell which may put some women off. What I'm suggesting is that the trade is unsuitable for someone of very refined tastes, so one shouldn't be surprised at the vigorous and vulgar language for which fishwives have come to be famous.


----------



## Myridon

natkretep said:


> But somebody must still deal with scaling, gutting, filleting, cutting the fish into steaks and so on. Is this person not called the fishmonger in the US?


As has been mentioned, the same people work both areas even if they are slightly separated (a very nice supermarket has the fish across the aisle from the other meats).  I call them butchers.  The butcher in the meat market boned this salmon for me.
For what it's worth, there is a separate shop near me that only sells seafood - it's called a seafood market (XXX's Seafood Market on the sign).


----------



## ewie

_Fishwife_ was the first second word that came into my head the other day when I heard the British singer Adele accepting an award at an awards ceremony. So it's still moving about in the back rooms of my active vocabulary twelve years later 
(Just thought I'd mention it  )


----------



## Hermione Golightly

Heaven forbid that we all talk like southern swanky toffs but sometimes, read often, my ears cringe.


----------

