# Speaking Spanish in the USA



## modgirl

First, I understand that English is not the official language of the United States.  However, Spanish seems to be creeping up everywhere, even in mainstream America (outside ethnic areas).  I was a bit surprised when I called the electric company the other day and was given a choice, on the automated line, of pressing_ 1 para espanol _or _2 for English_!

I realize that this may sound judgmental, but is there a reason why more native Spanish speakers don't learn English when they plan to live in the United States?


----------



## VenusEnvy

I think that there are many, many issues surrounding this topic. Firstly, there aren't many English-as-a-Second-Language classes out there that are free. The resources just aren't there. And, even if there were more classes offered, reaching out to so many people is difficult. You would need a liason in the community, motivation from the students, and time and money. Immigrants are vastly overrepresented in the lowest-paying jobs. With that being said, many of them need to work two jobs, or work at night. It's difficult to find time for classes. The Spanish-speaking population has grown exponentially recently, which would dignify the need for more resources. Unfortunately, this isn't on the government's list of top priorities.

Could it be that different cultures place different values on education?

Another factor may be that in some areas, it's not even necessary anymore! In some areas of MD even, it looks like a Mexican town! Spanish signs, Spanish stores and restaurants, etc. Why learn English if you don't need to?

Many other countries offer English to its students in grade school; some even 
require it. Many of my friends that have come from other European countries came over being (almost) fluent in English, having learned it in school.

I wrote a 12-page research paper on Adult literacy, in which I talk to an extent regarding ESL programs for immigrants to the US. (I know this may sound stupid, but if anyone wants to read it, that's fine.)


If I am wrong about any of this, please tell me. But, the above are only my opinions. I'd like to know what others think, too, Mod.


----------



## modgirl

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Another factor may be that in some areas, it's not even necessary anymore! In some areas of MD even, it looks like a Mexican town! Spanish signs, Spanish stores and restaurants, etc. Why learn English if you don't need to?


 
Quite frankly, that's what concerns me. When considering a second language, I've often heard native speakers of English say that Spanish would be the most useful language to learn. The problem is that the more people speak Spanish, the less incentive there is to speak English! 

I also very much understand your point of people working very hard (often with other native Spanish speakers) so that the time to learn English is limited. However, even with limited exposure to the language, there is an awfully lot to pick up. Many of these people have children educated in English-speaking schools. I would think that just speaking (and learning) with their children would be a huge boost.

I've spent a fair amount of time in several other countries, and though I do not speak another language completely fluently, I very easily pick up an awfully lot of the language just by observation.

I think of people from nations like China, Serbia and Montenegro, Korea, and so forth. As a general rule, most Americans do not speak their languages! Thus, the immigrants have little choice but to learn English.  I have to wonder whether we're helping or hindering people by converting much of our mainstream language to theirs.


----------



## modgirl

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> I wrote a 12-page research paper on Adult literacy, in which I talk to an extent regarding ESL programs for immigrants to the US.


 
Sorry, I forgot to ask: out of curiosity, where in the US, did you find adult literacy the lowest? My guess, and I could be totally off-base, is in the southern states.

Also, if you don't mind my asking, where were ESL programs the strongest? My guess (and it's only a guess) is in large metropolitan areas, like New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago.


----------



## VenusEnvy

modgirl said:
			
		

> Many of these people have children educated in English-speaking schools. I would think that just speaking (and learning) with their children would be a huge boost.


From what I've seen, the children speak Spanish in the home with their parents, and English in school with their friends. 


			
				modgirl said:
			
		

> Quite frankly, that's what concerns me. When considering a second language, I've often heard native speakers of English say that Spanish would be the most useful language to learn. The problem is that the more people speak Spanish, the less incentive there is to speak English!


Are you, then, worried about Spanish taking over as our official language? . . . .

What, exactly, concerns you?


----------



## astronauta

Venus, your first post explains exactly the situation in Canada regarding immigrants from India and China.

Although the official languages here are French and English, you can find most public services (call centres, driving tests, medical services, etc) in a variety of languages.

Sometimes when looking for a job, speaking Mandarin or Punjabi is considered an asset, a lot more seen in the accounting and computer job market...


----------



## modgirl

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> What, exactly, concerns you?


 
That we're impeding a growing process that almost all other immigrants use in order to acclimate to their new country.  It sounds "nice" that we're changing our media and products and such to include Spanish, but is it, really?  We don't do the same for many other languages.  The message is that we think they aren't smart enough to learn English.  If I were a native Spanish speaker, I'd be very insulted.


----------



## Irali

I´m spanish and I think that in Spain is the same, there are a lot of english or german who live here and they don´t speak spanish, maybe is because they think that if they speak another language they will loose their own culture or is like a betrayal.
Sorry for my english, is not very good. I hope you understand me. 

Un saludo.


----------



## VenusEnvy

modgirl said:
			
		

> That we're impeding a growing process that almost all other immigrants use in order to acclimate to their new country.  It sounds "nice" that we're changing our media and products and such to include Spanish, but is it, really?  We don't do the same for many other languages.  The message is that we think they aren't smart enough to learn English.  If I were a native Spanish speaker, I'd be very insulted.


So, you think we're, essentially, making it worse for them? That is, that we're hindering their learning English? That's a good point. 

We don't do the same for any other language because Spanish-speakers comprise a significantly large(r) population of ESOL's.

So, instead of offering services in Spanish, we should cut them out? Maybe this will give them more motivation to learn English . . .  Right . . .  _My _ only concern is that this didn't work in the past. (From what I know, I could be wrong.) And, what about all of the other issues I mentioned?

I agree with you, though, partly. If I went to a foreign country, and everyone kept on speaking to me in English, I'd get tired of it after a while. I'd think, "Hey, I can speak your language! What do you think I am, stupid?" Perhaps this is just my own personal opinion.


----------



## Phryne

I agree with most ideas already posted, and I may add that most Spanish speakers *do* speak English. Some just don't speak it very well because they feel too old to learn and others have just come to this country and they’re in the process of learning it. We have to understand that most immigrants never had the opportunity to go to school for too long, let alone to learn a different language. Once they reach the US they face all those problems mentioned by Venus. 

Also, even speaking the language doesn’t guarantee that much. When you’re foreign and you need to call customer service to complain or inquire about something, it's much harder than most people think to be able to understand everything you're being told and be able to explain yourself clearly. Is it necessary to say that I'm much more competent to argue in Spanish that in English? When it comes to businesses or governmental offices, they know about this very well. So, in order to keep customers, or as in the government, to get things done properly, they offer questionnaires and representatives in Spanish.

Don't forget either that other communities like Chinese, Koreans, Russians, etc, have their little worlds in inner cities as well. The Immigration Service (a.k.a. INS) knows it quite well, so it offers forms in various languages, not just Spanish. But it’s much more obvious with the Latin community because of its significant growing rate, in part due to this constant immigration that comes to the country not knowing the language.


saludos


----------



## fenixpollo

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> Could it be that different cultures place different values on education?* As well as different people within the same culture!*
> 
> Another factor may be that in some areas, it's not even necessary anymore! In some areas of MD even, it looks like a Mexican town! Spanish signs, Spanish stores and restaurants, etc. Why learn English if you don't need to?  *Immigrants settle in concentrated areas not because they say "Hey, let's move to the barrio latino so we won't have to learn English!"  They settle next to their familly members, friends, acquaintances and countrymen because having a support group in a foreign land is crucial to their survival.  Every single immigrant group does this.  For example: the largest community of Americans outside the US is around Lake Chapala, near Guadalajara, Mexico. Why have almost 100,000 Americans settled in this one particular area?  Connection with their countrymen.  My guess is that you would find a similar level of second language fluency among Americans in Chapala as you would in Latin Americans in "Mexican Town."*
> 
> Many other countries offer English to its students in grade school; some even
> require it. Many of my friends that have come from other European countries came over being (almost) fluent in English, having learned it in school.  *Perhaps, but most Spanish-speaking immigrants to the US aren't Spaniards, and many have had limited access to English-language education in their home country.  Even for those immigrants who finished the mandatory English classes in High School in their home country, how well are they prepared to speak English fluently?  Do most Americans who take High School Spanish for two years speak fluently enough to live in a Spanish-speaking country?*


 Venus, your last question cuts to the heart of the matter.  If you look at the situation on the surface and react with your knee -- _Why is this help line in Spanish?  This is 'Merka.  Speak English!_ -- then it's easy to be irritated by a perceived threat to our "cultural identity".  

But if you look deeper at the prevalence of the Spanish language, you'll find that the main cause is this: *we live in an open society that welcomes immigrants and values all of its residents equally*.  Unless you want to change that about the US, then I don't see any other choice but to accept the level of Spanish and try to deal with our plurality and diversity as best you can.

Just my (passionate) opinion.
Cheers.


----------



## Phryne

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> From what I've seen, the children speak Spanish in the home with their parents, and English in school with their friends. Are you, then, worried about Spanish taking over as our official language? . . .What, exactly, concerns you?


 For what I know, most children speak English in their houses and their parents answer to them in Spanish. 





			
				modgirl said:
			
		

> Quite frankly, that's what concerns me. When considering a second language, I've often heard native speakers of English say that Spanish would be the most useful language to learn. The problem is that the more people speak Spanish, the less incentive there is to speak English!


But even if I were wrong, this happened in past with most immigrants. Or are you people forgetting the immigration waves of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century? There were neighborhoods were everybody spoke either Yiddish, Italian, German, etc, and now most of their descents don't even have a clue of their ancestors languages! I don't see this country Spanish-izing or if it were, what's the problem?


			
				modgirl said:
			
		

> The message is that we think they aren't smart enough to learn English. If I were a native Spanish speaker, I'd be very insulted.


 This is not true. Most people I believe don't want to lose their roots so they prefer Univision or Telemundo. They are immigrants and they have nostalgia. However, they are quite capable to watch the channel thirteen news. As matter of fact, most actually do!

saludos


----------



## modgirl

Phryne said:
			
		

> This is not true.


 
Well, it is true that it's my opinion!



> Most people I believe don't want to lose their roots


 
That's very understandable. However, most Europeans, even without leaving their own countries, easily speak two or three languages. I would be shocked if someone from Denmark came to the US or England and expected that others would speak Danish! I just wonder why those whose first language is Spanish are so different. Even people from poorer countries don't come to the US and expect us to speak their languages.

Should the US start manufacturing products and making signs in Chinese and Korean to accommodate all the immigrants from those countries?

For some reason, we seem to accept that Spanish-speaking people cannot or will not learn English, but we don't accept that from other cultures. The big question is: why?


----------



## modgirl

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> *Even for those immigrants who finished the mandatory English classes in High School in their home country, how well are they prepared to speak English fluently?*





*That's a different subject. It isn't about speaking fluently upon arrival. It's about learning to speak English once they're here.*



*



			Do most Americans who take High School Spanish for two years speak fluently enough to live in a Spanish-speaking country?
		
Click to expand...

* 

*Again, a different subject, but most people who live in a country where their native language is not spoken, learn to speak the language. *

*Personally, even if I visit a country, I try to learn as much of the language as possible!*


----------



## modgirl

Hello Irali



			
				Irali said:
			
		

> I´m Spanish, and I think that in Spain it is the same; there are a lot of English or Germans who live here, and they don´t speak Spanish. Maybe it is because they think that if they speak another language, they will lose their own culture, or it is like a betrayal.


 
My bet is: they're lazy! Why learn another language if everyone speaks your own language?




> Sorry for my English, it is not very good. I hope you understand me.


 
You're very understandable!


----------



## fenixpollo

modgirl said:
			
		

> That's a different subject. It isn't about speaking fluently upon arrival. It's about learning to speak English once they're here.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, a different subject, but most people who live in a country where their native language is not spoken, learn to speak the language.
> 
> Personally, even if I visit a country, I try to learn as much of the language as possible!


That's when you, a person with disposable income for traveling, visit a country as a tourist because you are interested in learning about that country.  Immigrants who move here from Latin America are often doing so because they have few alternatives for providing for themselves and their families -- or precisely because they want that disposable income that many Americans already enjoy.  A related question: When you travel in other countries, do you ever need services in your native language?

When you say "we" are insulting them by offering them media programming in Spanish, remember that the people behind programming at the 4 or 5 national Spanish-language networks are members of the same Spanish-speaking community.  These programmers are looking to provide a service for, and make money from, a sizeable community.  Maybe some people are insulted by this, as you would be in their position.  Many are not.

When you encounter Spanish at government agencies and private entities, the motivation is not to coddle or insult Spanish-speakers.  Rather, those organizations find that the number of monolingual-Spanish customers is so great that if they don't offer services in Spanish, they will lose those customers, or not be able to provide them with services, or get so bogged down in trying to make accomodations for them that the entire operation will suffer.  In short, you hear "Oprime uno para español" out of necessity!

I agree that there are some immigrants who are, as you say, "lazy", but again, I think that they are in the minority.  Isn't it more insulting to lump immigrants who are less than fluent together by calling them lazy, than to offer them services in their native language?


----------



## modgirl

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Immigrants who move here from Latin America are often doing so because they have few alternatives for providing for themselves and their families -- or precisely because they want that disposable income that many Americans already enjoy.


 
What about immigrants from Taiwan or China?  




> A related question: When you travel in other countries, do you ever need services in your native language?


 
I haven't yet, but if I did, I'd find the embassy.




> When you say "we" are insulting them by offering them media programming in Spanish, remember that the people behind programming at the 4 or 5 national Spanish-language networks are members of the same Spanish-speaking community.


 
Where did I say that, specifically? 




> When you encounter Spanish at government agencies and private entities, the motivation is not to coddle or insult Spanish-speakers. Rather, those organizations find that the number of monolingual-Spanish customers is so great that if they don't offer services in Spanish, they will lose those customers


 
Electric companies? What is the need for Spanish-speaking people to learn English? None, because we're providing all these services. Where there is a will (or need), one finds a way. Americans have eradicated the need.



> I agree that there are some immigrants who are, as you say, "lazy",


 
I only used that word for Americans.




> Isn't it more insulting to lump immigrants who are less than fluent together by calling them lazy, than to offer them services in their native language?


 
Kindly read more carefully. 

You still didn't answer why we don't offer all these services and products in many other languages!


----------



## fenixpollo

modgirl said:
			
		

> That we're impeding a growing process that almost all other immigrants use in order to acclimate to their new country. It sounds "nice" that we're changing our media and products and such to include Spanish, but is it, really? We don't do the same for many other languages. The message is that we think they aren't smart enough to learn English. If I were a native Spanish speaker, I'd be very insulted.


I took your "we" from your 4th post.

In Fort Worth and Long Beach, there are phone menus and government services in Vietnamese.  I imagine that there are concentrations of speakers of languages besides Spanish (including Mandarin or Cantonese) in other U.S. cities where there are non-English services available -- just not to the extent that Spanish-language services are.  As I said, non-English services are provided where there is the most necessity, and often for mere survival.  In a small town where I worked, every large restaurant needed a Spanish-speaker on staff.  If they didn't have one, they were always short on kitchen workers.

I think I have been reading you quite carefully.  When you said "they're lazy", I saw that you were referring to Americans who don't learn the language of the country they're in -- the same charge that you're leveling against Spanish-speaking immigrants to the US.

You really have a good point about the electric companies.  I agree with your basic argument in this thread: that by providing services in Spanish, we're making it less essential for immigrants to learn English.  I don't know what the best solution is.


----------



## modgirl

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> I took your "we" from your 4th post.


 
I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.



> I think I have been reading you quite carefully. When you said "they're lazy", I saw that you were referring to Americans who don't learn the language of the country they're in -- the same charge that you're leveling against Spanish-speaking immigrants to the US.


 
But, you said I specifically used that word _lazy _to describe native Spanish speakers, and I did not. However, I am asking: is the reason we're going to such extensive lengths to provide Spanish everywhere -- that we (as an American society) think they're lazy? Maybe our government does. It is an insult. I don't think they're lazy at all. But, we are providing no incentive for them to speak English.



> You really have a good point about the electric companies. I agree with your basic argument in this thread: that by providing services in Spanish, we're making it less essential for immigrants to learn English. I don't know what the best solution is.


 
I think that we, as English-speaking Americans, could do a lot more to help the situation. I honestly think that providing Spanish translations for absolutely everything is only hindering the situation.


----------



## Edwin

Let's all absorb the data in the following link and then continue the discussion  http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Languages-in-the-United-States


----------



## modgirl

Edwin said:
			
		

> Let's all absorb the data in the following link and then continue the discussion  http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Languages-in-the-United-States


 
Edwin, so why aren't we giving the other 334 languages the same prominence as Spanish?


----------



## jemappelleK80

I wholeheartedly disagree with you, modgirl (although I understand your points).

I find it hard to believe that making it impossible/difficult to have something as basic as electricity = an "incentive" to learn a language.

To obtain certain services (like electricity, which you mentioned) :
a) one must deal with money, and even though I consider myself fluent in French, I would prefer to understand without a shred of doubt where my money is going...in other words, I would probably understand the conversation in French, but I would PREFER my mother language to verify that I have understood completely.
b) It is entirely possible that the conversation/recording includes technical jargon that may not be necessary to one's everyday life, so the words may be unfamiliar even to fluent speakers.

That said, I don't think that having the translation in Spanish is a deterrent to learning English at all--if Spanish-speakers are "offended" by this wouldn't that make them work just as hard to understand English and not use this "crutch?"

As a response to your main concern (at least I think it was your main concern...the subject has branched off a decent amount): Why Spanish and not other languages?  I repeat what others have said: the volume of speakers is greater.  It's not favoritism, it's logic.

Personally, I would prefer the opposite reaction to the situation: that more Americans learn Spanish.  I find it absurd that most Americans are monolingual; we should take this opportunity to embrace another language, not efface it.

~K

ps: This topic is quite incendiary, I must say--kudos for sticking to your guns, modgirl


----------



## Edwin

modgirl said:
			
		

> Edwin, so why aren't we giving the other 334 languages the same prominence as Spanish?



¿Quién sabe?  

Undoubtedly it is a matter of the sheer size of the Spanish speaking population--giving rise to *economic* and *political* power.  

Just look at the power of a relatively few Cubans in Florida to control the ridiculous US policy toward Cuba. 

If another 10% of the population of the US spoke Greek you would undoubtedly get a choice of English, Spanish or Greek when you phone your local utility company.


----------



## modgirl

Edwin said:
			
		

> If another 10% of the population of the US spoke Greek you would undoubtedly get a choice of English, Spanish or Greek when you phone your local utility company.


 
But, before it was Spanish, there was another language that was the second most widely spoken.  Why didn't we make all our products and service in that language?


----------



## VenusEnvy

modgirl said:
			
		

> But, before it was Spanish, there was another language that was the second most widely spoken.  Why didn't we make all our products and service in that language?


::sigh::

I suppose it was because Spanish is not only the second most spoken language in the U.S., but its growth is recent and exponential.


----------



## modgirl

jemappelleK80 said:
			
		

> I would probably understand the conversation in French, but I would PREFER my mother language to verify that I have understood completely.


 
So would many Russians and Arabic-speaking people! But, unfortunately, they have no option but to learn English.



> That said, I don't think that having the translation in Spanish is a deterrent to learning English at all


 
Then, why do you think a lot of people who choose to live here don't know English?




> As a response to your main concern (at least I think it was your main concern...the subject has branched off a decent amount): Why Spanish and not other languages? I repeat what others have said: the volume of speakers is greater. It's not favoritism, it's logic.


 
Before Spanish, there was another language that was the second most widely spoken language in the USA. I don't know what it is, and that's the point! Perhaps it was German or French -- who knows? But there simply wasn't this gigantic overhaul of all products and services to include that language. Why not? It has only happened with the Spanish language.



> Personally, I would prefer the opposite reaction to the situation: that more Americans learn Spanish.


 
Why not French or German or Russian?




> I find it absurd that most Americans are monolingual; we should take this opportunity to embrace another language, not efface it.


 
I could not agree more! No one was arguing that we shouldn't learn another language. But why does it have to be Spanish? It makes more sense to learn Chinese since more speak Chinese (than Spanish) in the world!


----------



## Edwin

jemappelleK80 said:
			
		

> I find it absurd that most Americans are monolingual;



It has been said before, but I will say it again:

If every state in the US spoke a different language we would all speak several languages like the inhabitants of India, Europe and many other areas of the world.  Most people learn a new language because they have to, not out of curiosity. 

On the other hand due to the large number of immigrants  in this country we possible have more bi and tri lingual citizens than almost any other country in the world. Just take a look at the link I gave about the number of languages spoken in the US. There's a lot of interesting data there--not just the number of languages.


----------



## modgirl

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> I suppose it was because Spanish is not only the second most spoken language in the U.S., but its growth is recent and exponential.


 
It isn't exponential (though if we keep heading that way....), but if growth is the criteria, then we should all be speaking Chinese!


----------



## Edwin

modgirl said:
			
		

> But, before it was Spanish, there was another language that was the second most widely spoken.  Why didn't we make all our products and service in that language?



What language was that and what percentage of the population spoke it?   And when was a language other than Spanish second most widely spoken?


----------



## VenusEnvy

modgirl said:
			
		

> It isn't exponential (though if we keep heading that way....), but if growth is the criteria, then we should all be speaking Chinese!


But, China is different that the Spanish-speakers coming to us from the south. Immigrants come here for different reasons. I'm not an expert, but I don't believe that the Chinese are coming over out of desperation for a way to feed their family, and obtain basic necessities. (But, I could be wrong.)


I have a feeling this thread is going to be a cycle of the same arguments. I will need to resort to referring to previous posts to answer already asked questions.


----------



## modgirl

Edwin said:
			
		

> Most people learn a new language because they have to, not out of curiosity.QUOTE]
> 
> Precisely!  There's absolutely no reason for Spanish speakers in the US to learn English at all.  Everything they need is in Spanish.
> 
> I wonder: do many native Spanish speakers who don't know English, speak other languages?  I don't know.  If not, I wonder why we're supposed to speak Spanish, but they don't have to speak English in the United States.  It's rather odd!


----------



## Edwin

modgirl said:
			
		

> It isn't exponential (though if we keep heading that way....), but if growth is the criteria, then we should all be speaking Chinese!


There are not that many Chinese speakers in the US. The criterion is the number of speakers of a language who live in the US.


----------



## modgirl

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> But, China is different that the Spanish-speakers coming to us from the south. Immigrants come here for different reasons. I'm not an expert, but I don't believe that the Chinese are coming over out of desperation for a way to feed their family, and obtain basic necessities. (But, I could be wrong.)


 
Well, if you consider the Chinese government... An awfully lot of Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, and many other cultures do indeed land on our shores with nothing more than the clothes on their backs. And they often don't speak a word of English. No one writes their native language on products and provides them with all the advantages that Spanish speakers enjoy.


----------



## Edwin

modgirl said:
			
		

> But, before it was Spanish, there was another language that was the second most widely spoken.  Why didn't we make all our products and service in that language?



If you include the present boundaries of the US probably Spanish has always been the second most widely spoken language.  But note this tidbit of information from the above link: 
*Before World War I, more than 6 per cent of American school-children received their primary education exclusively in German.* So there is nothing unique about the current situation with Spanish.

Also I note from the same webpage: the standard California Class C driver's license examination is available in 32 different languages.


----------



## modgirl

Edwin said:
			
		

> *Before World War I, more than 6 per cent of American school-children received their primary education exclusively in German.* So there is nothing unique about the current situation with Spanish.


 
Except one thing: I'll bet those German kids didn't grow up thinking that they'd never have to speak English! Big difference. 

I'm absolutely for learning more than one language!  I only wonder why more Spanish-speaking immigrants don't feel the same when they come to the USA.


----------



## Merlin

modgirl said:
			
		

> First, I understand that English is not the official language of the United States. However, Spanish seems to be creeping up everywhere, even in mainstream America (outside ethnic areas). I was a bit surprised when I called the electric company the other day and was given a choice, on the automated line, of pressing_ 1 para espanol _or _2 for English_!
> 
> I realize that this may sound judgmental, but is there a reason why more native Spanish speakers don't learn English when they plan to live in the United States?


I guess the reason is that there are Spanish services that they can take advantage. Customer service for example have spanish options. So as long as there's someone who can help them in a way that they don't have to speak in other language they're assuming that they don't have to speak other languages. I work in a call canter and we have spanish agents. Spanish customers just have to select the option for spanish. In that way they don't have to speak in English anymore.
On the contrary, I believe they should learn other language (in this thread English in particular) also. It helps a lot actually. What if they landed in a place where nobody speaks spanish? Then they will have a hard time asking and talking to people.
Am I making any sense here? If you find me way out of the topic, please remind me. I just can't think clearly right now.
Muchisimas Gracias!!!


----------



## Kansas Girl

modgirl said:
			
		

> My bet is: they're lazy! Why learn another language if everyone speaks your own language?


 
I don't believe (in general) they are lazy, it is hard to learn another language (especially if you are an adult)!

From my experience, my great-grandparents came to the US from Mexico.  My grandparents speak Spanish but my mother wasn't taught any Spanish because she grew up in an era where it was frowned upon if you showed your "ethnicity"  Now she regrets not learning Spanish and the main reason that I am learning Spanish is because I want to embrace my heritage.  You lose who you are if you don't know your cultural heritage (which includes language), at least that is what I think and that is why I believe some immigrants are afraid if they lose their language, they will forget where they came from.

Also, I am not saying that they shouldn't learn English, I am saying that it takes time and it is very difficult to lean a new language when you are just trying to find work so you can feed your family!

Kansas Girl


----------



## marygg

I thought that most of the immigrants learn english, because when I go to the US I see people that look like mexicans and they tell you, sorry I don't speak spanish, but I know they do.

I don't know why are you so concern, modgirl? Here we need to learn english if we want a medium job, and if we want a good job, at least we need to have a 90% of english. Here the english is a necessity and nobody in our environment speak it everyday.

In your case you don't need to speak spanish if you don't want it. It is not a necessity you can pass of it(<----I'm not sure about it if is correct). 

The life of the immigrant is hard, they go to the US thinking in the american dream, because where they come from don't have hope and their families are starving and definitely they don't have time for studying english, but I assure you that they learn by hearing, at least a little bit.


The services are in spanish because the thing that interest the companies is the money, and how to reach the market of the latinamericans.
why not frenchs, chineses, etc. because is not as big market as latino

Well that is my opinion with some mistakes or maybe a lot

cheers!!!


----------



## fenixpollo

modgirl said:
			
		

> Except one thing: I'll bet those German kids didn't grow up thinking that they'd never have to speak English! Big difference.
> 
> I'm absolutely for learning more than one language! I only wonder why more Spanish-speaking immigrants don't feel the same when they come to the USA.


I think you're making inaccurate assumptions about the thoughts of Spanish-Speaking immigrants and their children.  Most children of immigrants, as was stated in a previous post, become fluent in English, and many are not fluent in their parents' first language.  The dominant attitude among children of immigrants in any community is a desire to assimilate quickly.  If you look at the tv and radio programming aimed at the Spanish-speaking youth, it's bilingual.  If you spend any time with teenaged children of immigrants, you will observe a high value placed on American, English-speaking culture, and a lower value placed on immigrant culture (as well as insults aimed at their recently-arrived countrymen, such as "naco", "mojado" or "FOB" -- Fresh-Off-the-Boat).

The point you're missing about "why Spanish?" is this: historically, speakers of other languages have never been valued, until recently.  The expectation, historically, has always been for immigrants to assimilate as quickly as possible, with the least fuss and contamination of the dominant culture.  

New immigrants have always been met with hostility, rejection, stereotypes and racism.  Hence, *the nativist reaction*, Polack jokes, "no Irish need apply", Sacco & Vanzetti, etc.  Sometime late in the 20th century, people started deciding that this is no way to greet new immigrants -- about the same time they decided to start treating women, blacks, the disabled, and every other historically-disadvantaged group, as if they were equal.  As attitudes changed, approaches to immigrants changed, and for the first time, people started reaching out to immigrants in their native languages (whatever they happen to be).

While we are not "helping" immigrants to learn English by offering them services in their native languages what's your alternative?  Live in a culture that does not welcome immigrants, that values _'Merkin_ culture above others?  Go back to the pre-civil-rights-era attitudes of intolerance and elitism?  Make English the official language and *force* people to learn English, as K80 correctly observed?  Nothing that is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty, in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution suggests to me that our Founders wanted to establish an intolerant and exclusive nation.


----------



## modgirl

Kansas Girl said:
			
		

> I don't believe (in general) they are lazy, it is hard to learn another language (especially if you are an adult)!


 
Hi Kansas Girl -- Please note that the "lazy" reference was to Americans in European countries only.  Thanks.


----------



## astronauta

I think MaryG has nailed it.

Many companies offer these multi-lingual services to attract customers; to make them comfortable and sell them even more products (tele-bundles, banking, etc). They already have the English crowd; they are after the next majority... In Canada you can choose a bank that speaks your language (English and French by law and Punjabi, Mandarin and sometimes Spanish occassionally).

I also think that the government contributes to this trend because they want to primarily avoid accidents that costs them money, so emergency services, driving tests, even city piping notices I have seen in a myriad of languages...


----------



## cirrus

modgirl said:
			
		

> Edwin, so why aren't we giving the other 334 languages the same prominence as Spanish?


 
Modgirl are you going to show the same truculent frame of mind as you did in your  string about gay marriage or are you going to practice your would be shock jock tactics?  This website has a world audience and your views could all too easily be interpreted as racist.
Which bit of the reference to 10+% of Americans (check back to Edwins sting which contains a bunch of deeply salient facts)  speak Spanish as a mother tongue don't you understand? That makes about 25 million people. Precisely what is wrong with making these Americans life easier?


----------



## chica11

I'm from Los Angeles so I started hearing/listening to Spanish at a very young age, and am fully used to hearing Spanish and English options every time I call the phone company, cable company, insurance company etc, etc.   In fact because California and much of where I would have any interest in living has many Spanish speakers I decided to take it in high school, continued on with it in college, went abroad to Latin America and now am starting a master's degree in the subject.  In terms of your question, why don't more people learn English I think the problem is that it's hard to expect an immigrant from a poor village in Latin America who does not speak proper Spanish, or read or write in Spanish at all, to up and learn English.  Does that make sense?  Of course, generally children of these immigrants who go to school end up speaking better English than Spanish because of exposure and schooling.  Many don't speak proper Spanish which is why in California and many states, we have classes like Spanish for native speakers or heritage speakers separate from Spanish as a foreign language.  I think the answer has a lot to do with one's own educational and socioeconomic background.


----------



## chica11

Hi sorry to ad another post so quickly, I wrote my other post before reading everyone else's.  I think that we can't forget that Latin America is right next door to the United States and that's what makes someone's experience immigrating to the U.S from let's say Honduras or Mexico from someone coming from Beijing or Lebanon.  The ties to the home country are stronger here.  Plus in California, most of our signs are in both Spanish and English and have been so for quite a long time.  Let's not forget that most of the southwest was part of Mexico and Spain for an equal amount of time if not longer than it has been part of the U.S.  I believe there is still an incentive to learn English.  You can't move up the social and professional ladder without speaking English. On a similar subject, what do you think of bilingual education programs? Teaching classes in both Spanish and English.  I am personally against them as statistics have shown (at least in California) that bilingual education students do worse on exams and in school later on.  I also think it's insulting that some people in the educational system think that we need bilingual education because hispanos can't be immersed and learn English or it's a way to give them cultural pride.  They can learn English, especially since they are young children and schools should be more concerned with teaching the basics to get kids into college and onto successful careers than cultural pride.  Don't get me wrong, I am completely in support of language classes, Spanish, English, French, German, Chinese, Arabic etc, for those who need or want to learn them and believe foreign language education should start as early as possible and we should be advocating and giving money into making people fluent in more than one language.  Speaking other languages is a great thing!!


----------



## Augusto-Cesar

Spanish is the de facto second language of the US. Even the State Department's World Factbook states so. More than 25M speakers (about 33M Hispanics) makes this a very important group. In previous decades, it was not deemed necessary to teach foreign languages in schools. Up until the late 50s, Greek and Latin were taught in highschool, not so the case nowadays, It's an elective in colleges and universities, not a requirement. This of course, reflects the monolingual culture that was dominant for most of the history of the US. Take into account that up until 1846, the states of TX, AZ, NV, CA, NM, Montana, UT and parts of Oregon, were part of Mexico. Florida was also part of the Spanish Empire as was Puerto Rico. To say that this is a nation made up of English speakers only is a farce... surely, I advocate for everyone learning English, but it is quite arrogant, not to mention ignorant, to say that everyone has to learn English, but not the other way around. I have lived in Europe and studied there for some time. Not all Europeans speak more than one language, although a great deal (perhaps more than the Americans) speak at least two. That is not to say that it is impossible for a society of different cultures and languages to exist side-by-side. A classic example of this of course is Switzerland. You have Italians, French and German living in one nation, and then there are regional dialects such as Romansch in the eastern part of CH. Having lived and travelled there, I can assure you that not all Swiss speak all 4 official languages or even two, as most people tend to live and speak only the language of their canton. Under the UN Charter of Human Rights, no government is to discriminate any one person on the basis of language, hence, why and for practical reasons, you must be provided with a translation for official documents, in this case a group of people of such large number, merits the attention of companies, governments, officials to provide them with documents in a language that they can understand. Instead of pointing the finger at those immigrants who cannot master the English language, instead try to learn a foreign language and engage in the culture of other people in the world. For most of its history, the US has promoted a monolingual society, based on discrimination and separation. Why should language be any different... officially however, and to the astonishment (and ignorance) of most, there is no "officially sanctioned" language in the US. GASP!

And adding fuel to the fire, when I lived in France and Italy, the Americans visiting there wanted to be served in English, instead of making a genuine effort to speak French or Italian. While I don't blame them for not speaking those languages, in the last 15 years with the rise of globalization, the internet and fast speed communications, we are truly not alone in this world. Companies all over the USA also cater to the Spanish speakers in the USA because to not do so would mean less money to be made and here my friend lies the answer, money will make Americans speak any language other than English when money is to be made in the USA. Even the presidential candidates "yo hablar espanyol" when touting the Hispanic vote. This goes to show you that not all Hispanics are "poor" or "illegal" and  living in a Latin city such as Miami, I can assure you that many of these middle class and upper class Latins, didn't make all their money by catering to the Anglos or English speakers alone, in fact, many of them don't even speak English and have made huge fortunes, it's all a matter of learning how to make money, language is just a helpful tool, not a requirement.


----------



## chica11

Augusto, Just wanted to say that I completely agree with you. I love learning other languages and besides Spanish and English which I already speak, read and write fluently (English my native tongue) I am now learning French and hope to some day learn portugese. Making a more multilingual america is the way to go, the way to make our country truly open minded and diverse. 

Saludos!


----------



## Kräuter_Fee

When a group of people who share the same native language are together in a foreign country they tend to become closer, that's my own experience. In Germany for example... lots of Turkish people live together in their own areas and in some places you get the feeling you could be in Turkey (disregarding the weather ).
When you go to a foreign country you should learn the local language, but sometimes people aren't that accepted. I think there are two main factors:
1. There are people who speak your language so you become closer to them and make your group of friends.
2. The local people aren't willing to help, it's easier to talk to people who have your same language, similar experiences, the same cultural background.


----------



## SakiToku

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Venus, your last question cuts to the heart of the matter. If you look at the situation on the surface and react with your knee -- _Why is this help line in Spanish? This is 'Merka. Speak English!_ -- then it's easy to be irritated by a perceived threat to our "cultural identity".
> 
> But if you look deeper at the prevalence of the Spanish language, you'll find that the main cause is this: *we live in an open society that welcomes immigrants and values all of its residents equally*. Unless you want to change that about the US, then I don't see any other choice but to accept the level of Spanish and try to deal with our plurality and diversity as best you can.
> 
> Just my (passionate) opinion.
> Cheers.


 
We'll I think your passionaite opinion is completely wrong. All the time I see a Chinese person speaking with a Hispanic, an Indian person speaking with a Brazilian. This is not because they all know each others languange, but because they know English; the central lanuage and base of communication in the US. That is what makes our country so wonderful, everyone can communicate with everyone through one language.


----------



## Mei

Irali said:
			
		

> I´m spanish and I think that in Spain is the same, there are a lot of english or german who live here and they don´t speak spanish, maybe is because they think that if they speak another language they will loose their own culture or is like a betrayal.
> Sorry for my english, is not very good. I hope you understand me.
> 
> Un saludo.


 
Hi,
I'm spanish too, The last year I was working on a shop (electric trains and things like that) and on summer most of the clients were tourists, and I was lucky if they spoke spanish. People from Europe, french, italian, german, or even other country, all of them spoke English (or french), for me it was ok, I could practise but why they didn't speak spanish? (I'm not asking for catalan ) 
So, Mod, we have the same situation here.


----------



## jacinta

I´d like to add my own views on our increasingly small world.  I live in California where the Spanish-speaking population grows yearly.  For economic and political reasons, Latin Americans migrate here, usually illegally at first, but most would like to pursue their citizenship.  Let´s look at the adults who come to this country:

- they must work long days in order to survive
-they return home at night having to deal with everyday life
-they live in communities where Spanish is spoken
-they cannot afford the time to study English
-they have no specific reason to learn when everywhere they go, Spanish is spoken
-Learning a new language as an adult, especially English, is a daunting task
-they have children attending schools where those children must learn English
-those children serve as great interpreters when English is needed
-Many are seasonal workers and return home during the winter

We can easily say, ¨"Why don´t they learn English?" but when I analyze their lives and see what they´re up against, I say why can´t we learn Spanish?  It´s a two-way street.  There is no reason why the U.S. can´t be bilingual.  I believe it is on its way to becoming so.


----------



## chica11

jacinta said:
			
		

> I´d like to add my own views on our increasingly small world. I live in California where the Spanish-speaking population grows yearly. For economic and political reasons, Latin Americans migrate here, usually illegally at first, but most would like to pursue their citizenship. Let´s look at the adults who come to this country:
> 
> - they must work long days in order to survive
> -they return home at night having to deal with everyday life
> -they live in communities where Spanish is spoken
> -they cannot afford the time to study English
> -they have no specific reason to learn when everywhere they go, Spanish is spoken
> -Learning a new language as an adult, especially English, is a daunting task
> -they have children attending schools where those children must learn English
> -those children serve as great interpreters when English is needed
> -Many are seasonal workers and return home during the winter
> 
> We can easily say, ¨"Why don´t they learn English?" but when I analyze their lives and see what they´re up against, I say why can´t we learn Spanish? It´s a two-way street. There is no reason why the U.S. can´t be bilingual. I believe it is on its way to becoming so.


 
I agree with everything you said Jacinta. I also live in California and think your asessment is correct. What's wrong with having our country be bilingual or multilingual? I think it would be great and am a big supporter of it. Many people are afraid that Spanish is going to overtake in English in this country. It won't. However, Spanish is becoming and will continue to grow as a strong second language in this country. I honestly think part of people's negative feelings towards the growing power and prevalency of the Spanish language and various Spanish American cultures that come here is that the U.S culture is to me still very eurocentric. I wonder if a great influx of so called White european immigrants came, the way Latinos do from Latin America, that people would have such a great problem with it. I personally don't think they would. Our society in the way we educate the young still press on that the best thinkers, the best novels, the best everything comes from Europe. And when such a large influx of people from Latin America come in to the States the way they are many people find in threatening. Much of it based on ignorance. I'm sure I'll get a lot of slack for writing this post. The United States doesn't like to admit that it's still by far a prejudiced country. 

Saludos!!


----------



## Outsider

chica11 said:
			
		

> I honestly think part of people's negative feelings towards the growing power and prevalency of the Spanish language and various Spanish American cultures that come here is that the U.S culture is to me still very eurocentric. I wonder if a great influx of so called White european immigrants came, the way Latinos do from Latin America, that people would have such a great problem with it.


It's happened before. (Whether it would happen again is, of course, a different question.)


----------



## SakiToku

chica11 said:
			
		

> Augusto, Just wanted to say that I completely agree with you. I love learning other languages and besides Spanish and English which I already speak, read and write fluently (English my native tongue) I am now learning French and hope to some day learn portugese. Making a more multilingual america is the way to go, the way to make our country truly open minded and diverse.
> 
> Saludos!



Personally I think your theory is completly wrong. Having a multilingual country does not make anything more diverse or open-minded. It truly makes everything and everyone want to stick around their own groups that speak their language, therefore making everyone isolated. This is the opposite of what the USA is all about; there should be a central language, English, where people from all ethinicities, all native languages, and all cultures can communicate on an even level. 

The more people speak English in this country, the more interaction there becomes between all cultures.


----------



## chula

The best example for lenguage tolerance is the Netherlands. Most of the speak at least two lenguages. I speak five lenguages and I would like to learn even more lenguages, if possible. Most of the english speaking people, dont see the need to learn another lenguage because their lenguage is learned by most of the world.  I think that by speaking another lenguage you not only communicate with another person of another country but you can also understand the way they think and their culture. 
It is a pitty that the land who wants to export democracy to the rest of the world has not been so tolerant to the spanish lenguage.


----------



## fenixpollo

SakiToku said:
			
		

> We'll I think your passionaite opinion is completely wrong. All the time I see a Chinese person speaking with a Hispanic, an Indian person speaking with a Brazilian. This is not because they all know each others languange, but because they know English; the central lanuage and base of communication in the US. That is what makes our country so wonderful, everyone can communicate with everyone through one language.


I'm not suggesting that English should no longer be the primary language.  I'm suggesting that Americans should be more tolerant of people who speak languages other than English -- no matter how much or how little English they speak.


----------



## cuchuflete

SakiToku said:
			
		

> Having a multilingual country does not make anything more diverse or open-minded.
> 
> 
> ... there should be a central language, English, where people from all ethinicities, all native languages, and all cultures can communicate on an even level.



Two seemingly contradictory statements?


I agree that having a single language in common is useful for all.  That said, the more additional languages, the better.  

Most people herd together based on something they have in common, be it economic status or preference for urban or rural living or language or all of these factors and more. 

I'm pleased that my state posts major highway signs in both EN and FR. It's a courtesy to our neighbors in French speaking Canada. Beyond courtesy, the ability to perceive the world through more than one language and cultural context is, if not a necessity, a luxury. 

I would like to see all students taught a minimum of one language in addition to English, starting in the first grade of school, if not earlier.


----------



## JazzByChas

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> If I went to a foreign country, and everyone kept on speaking to me in English, I'd get tired of it after a while. I'd think, "Hey, I can speak your language! What do you think I am, stupid?" Perhaps this is just my own personal opinion.


 
I think that this is the crux of the matter. If you are intelligent enough to want to go to a foreign country, it would seem a bit patronizing if the natives only spoke to you in your tongue. 

I know that I, for one, would want to learn the language of the host country. I consider it very jingoistic to assume that everyone should speak your language to you when you are in a foreign country.

As for spanish-speaking immigrants to this country: I think the situation has been that a lot of relatively un-educated native speakers of Spanish have come to this country for an opportunity to earn some wealth, support their families, and go back to their native country. Or at least, to support their family back in their native country. Educated immigrants often know English even before they come to this country! So catering to someone not to have to learn the native language of a country in which they reside strikes me a perpetuating the laziness of the people who emmigrate to this country. I have nothing against foreign languages (I'm in this forum, after all!), or having your native language be the basis for your cultural/social exchanges, but I would think it a responsible thing to do to learn the native language of your host country.

Chas.


----------



## fenixpollo

JazzByChas said:
			
		

> Educated immigrants often know English even before they come to this country! So catering to someone not to have to learn the native language of a country in which they reside strikes me as perpetuating the laziness of the people who emigrate to this country.


 You're assuming that the reason that many immigrants don't speak English is that they're lazy. You also appear to be comparing the non-English-speaking immigrants with educated English-speaking immigrants. This would imply that the reason that some immigrants don't speak English is that they're uneducated. A lack of education is usually due to to a lack of _opportunities_, not laziness.


----------



## Swettenham

In the United States, it is possible to become a millionaire speaking very little English (of course, you may have to hire bilingual lawyers, secretaries, etc.)  I'm not saying that you will be on the Fortune 500, nor that it is easy (far from it— no lazy immigrant could accomplish such a feat); I am only saying that I personally know a person who came here with nothing; still speaks rudimentary, broken English; and is not a citizen; and now owns more property than my family.

Times are changing.  I agree with chuchu: all American citizens should be taught a foreign language (I would specify Spanish) beginning at least as early as first grade.

Many are resistant to this kind of change, and almost take personal offense when they accidently receive junk mail written in Spanish.  I had a long discussion with my friend about this, who says "English, America, English, America, English."  I responded, "That's fine, but understand that your own children will be competing in the job market with bilingual peers."


----------



## Outsider

It's a bit disconcerting how Americans can hasten to point out that the U.S. doesn't have an official language (unlike, say, those elitist Europeans  ), yet react so negatively to the possibility of using other languages besides English in their country... 
I'm generalizing, of course. We've seen many Americans express different opinions in this very thread.


----------



## Khaine2005

I brought this up to a few of the ladies I work with at my job who came to Seattle, Washington about 5 years ago, and between the 3 of them 2 speak decent english, while the 3rd doesnt speak hardly any.  The two who speak it decent enough went to school for a year to learn english once they came to the states, however since they had to work at the same time and most of the jobs that will hire them is a late night position it was just too difficult for them to continue with the classes and keep working the full time job that they work.  The third lady however has been in the states for 7 years and doesn't speak any english because where she lived prior there wasn't any need for her to learn for the simple fact that everything she needed she could get at a spanish place or somewhere that someone spoke spanish.

I have been learning spanish for the past 8 months now and have been teaching them english every night for 2 hours.  

I don't believe that the reason is that they don't want to learn, I think that most of the people here would prefer to speak the language that is easier to communicate with, but most just don't have the opportunity or just the time to devote to learning a new language.


----------



## flightgoddess

I'm sorry, this may be slightly off topic, but I need to chastize Jacinta for one of the comments she made. Many of her points have merit, but I have to DISAGREE with her assertion that the English speaking children make great interpreters! I am currently enrolled in an interpreting course, and the use of bilingual children (evern other relatives too) as interpreters is simply unethical. Using children upsets the power balance within a family, takes away the adult's privacy regarding medical and financial issues, causes undue stress to the child if they know about issues they shouldn't, forces too much responsibility on them at a young age, their interpretations may be inaccurate because they do not know technical or medical terms, I could go on with more. Just imagine, would you want your child to interpret for the doctor when he is going to tell you that you have cancer and you will die? How do you think the child would feel in that siuation? Ordering in a restaurant or shopping is one thing, but children should not be burdened with the responsibility of interpreting sensative issues for their parents.

Sorry for the rant, but as an interpreter and translator in training, I feel it my duty to inform others about the ethical implications of a situation like this.

Thanks, flightgoddess


----------



## Christoph

I think you/we are just trying to give modgirl an understanding of the situation. 

Many of those hispanic immigrants have tough physical jobs. There is simply lack of energy at the end of the day to take classes and become very fluent in English. Or they have 2nd jobs as mentioned above.

The electric/phone companies simply provide those other languages to gain customers. Or the hispanic will go to the other company providing his/her language. So that is somewhat business driven. And the companies don't provide all languages simply because it would be too costly.

But I had the same questions as you modgirl had at the beginning of my US endeavor. You even order Chinese menus in a restaurant in San Fran china town by pointing with your finger onto the menu card. The chinese waiter still hadn't learned english despite being in the US for I don't know how long. And that right in the middle of a metropolis! But being back in Europe, I figured that most big European cities have there own culture circles where you can survive without knowing the country's language. I've heard that some Turkish women in Berlin - who had lived there for decades without learning a word German - start to eventually learn German. And why? It helps their emancipation in the family. Just on an anectotal note...

Enjoy the US. It bears many fascinating places. I remember entire blocks in LA being written in Korean only. Or in Alhambra (also LA) I was wondering whether I was the only white person in the mall.

cr


----------



## GotBoost?

Very interesting thread on a very complex issue. I've been reading most of it, and I agree with most points made. I thing it's important to see Spanish (or any foreing language) as a cultural asset to the country, not as a threat. The US was here before Spanish speakers started coming in large amounts. Before them there were the Chinese, the Germans, the Polish and on and on. Even back then the US-born population looked down and ridiculed those immigrants because of their language and customs. So today, it's more of the same. Like someone pointed out earlier, what would be the reaction in this country if the US was to have a large European immigration? Hmm...
Assimilation (the Melting Pot concept) is a very controversial idea. Imagine a foreing country trying to get its "Merkan" population to dissolve into their culture. Ha!! That would go like a lead balloon. Now, Balkanization is a serious and very real concern. It truly is a difficult issue.


----------



## Swettenham

GotBoost? said:
			
		

> The US was here before Spanish speakers started coming in large amounts.


Well, Spanish speakers were here first.  That's why several states (Florida, Colorado, Nevada, etc.) have Spanish names.  Also cities (Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Orlando, etc.).  Britons didn't name those places.


----------



## Orgullomoore

I suppose I'll add my piece to this fantastically interesting thread :

I live in Texas, and am the only white employee at my Mexican restaurant workplace. Here, most everything that one would need or want is available in Spanish. Many of my school colleagues don't speak English and don't care to... there are plenty of other Hispanic students to socialize with, ESL classes are available (most of my textbooks and class tests are available in Spanish and English!) and all they want to do is get by and get out into the real world and or go back to there homeland (I've observed that they usually don't go back, even if they have expressed prior desire). 

At work it's the same way: mostly Mexican people who came here to make ten times what they made in Mexico, planning to learn English along the way, got here, and realized that learning English was not even needed -- so the stuck to Spanish. I've brought up the issue many times ("_Ey, güey, ¿por qué no aprendes inglés?_"), and I always get a similar response ("_¿¡Pos pa qué, si tú me hablas en español!?_"). They aren't even considering it. They feel more than comfortable with the large and growing Hispanic community in Texas and doubt the usefulness. The only ones who speak a fair amount of English are the waiters and bartender, which speak with a very heavy accent and no slightly more than:
WAITER: "Hola, señores, do you want a margarita?"
CUSTOMER: "I'll take a coke, please"
WAITER: "Un momento, por favor"
--- 5 minutes ---
WAITER: "Ready to order"
CUSTOMER: "I want the _____"
WAITER: "Un momento, por favor"

et cetera, and they get by just fine. 

Addressing the chicanos at home issue: I have spent alot of time in friends' houses and what I see is this: The first child, born in the States of monolingual hispanics, speaks great Spanish, and learns OK English at school. The second child speaks less Spanish and nearly perfect English (there is a long explanation for this but basically the children realize they can use English as a code to exclude their parents from their mischief, and the second practices more at home with the first) The third child speaks almost no Spanish and, consequently, the parents get frustrated and set rules such as "exclusive Spanish when I'm home", which of course, are not enforceable.

From what I've seen, the child is almost always used as a translator and I've even observed a teenage chicano try to translate a court subpoena (poor kid).

Regarding public hispanic hubs: Besides _all over the place_ , gringos get weird looks at places like _la pulga_ (the Flea Market), quinceañeras (girls' fifteenth birthdays), and hispanic weddings. ...oh, and working in a Mexican restaurant . 

On a separate note, I personally look for these things as I find it strikingly intriguing. When I receive a sale's call and there is the "por favor, marque el 2 para español", I always do, just to practice. What can I lose? They called me! MCI called the other day and it was quite fun! At stores like Wal-Mart, if I have the choice to complain with Jane or Juana you better bet I'm going for Juana. I also keep an eye out for people in need of translation.

No, I don't see Spanish as a "problem", but rather an enrichment. English is the official language of the U.S. because the original states were property of England, and it was the majority. We almost became German speakers! That is, we speak what everyone else speaks, it's the norm. On the other hand, if the U.S. Hispanic population continues to grow like this for much longer, I see no reason why it shouldn't become the official or co-official language (as it already has in some regions). One thing I hate is the stupid attitude of "This is 'merka, speak 'merkan!". America is a melting pot, always has been, and shows no signs of slowing down regarding the constant culture changes, so onward, I say. Accordingly, I believe that if we really wanted to exaggerate, we could say "Why are whites in the U.S. not learning Spanish? Who is the one resisting conforamtion here?" I hate that chicanos stop speaking Spanish at a young age because they are ashamed of it, due to their fellow citizens (adults and children) subduing it, I consider this abuse. 

Sorry this post is so disorganized. Cheers!


----------



## MCL

Have you ever learned a new language?  Have you ever HAD to use it?  And been terrified to do so?  Perhaps you found people speak too quickly to you, or they may unthinkingly use a very sophisticated vocabulary?  (I'm guilty of these two particularly.) They may not look directly at you so they are easier to understand, or they may slur their words.?  Or perhaps there is a great deal of noise impeding your shaky comprehension?
 
 Afterward you find you have to regather your two remaining confused and scattered brain cells, meanwhile searching amongst the clutter for very simple words you knew moments ago, in an attempt to reply in their language.  And then heard them turn to someone else and say 'They don't understand a thing, do they?'
 
 I'm finding out - while using my infant Spanish - that many Hispanics DO speak English, but are very shy about it!  And I'm finding myself identifying with that shyness...  I'm also gratefully finding myself speaking English where ever I'm able.  It is such a relief to be fluent!
 
The best we can do is realize the WORK involved in assimilating a new language and culture, be patient and encourage one another!  We can only gain by our efforts!


----------



## nabi

el español en los estados unidos para muchos americanos es sinonimo de invasion de personas a nuestro pais, para otros es sencillamente otro idioma mas de los millares que se hablan en usa, la verdad es que es necesario que el inmigrante se adapte al nuevo idioma,ya que asi podra tener mayor progreso dentro de un pais que no es el suyo


----------



## MCL

Si, Nabi!  Es cierto.  Pero, no es fácil!  Necesito mucho tiempo, ayuda, y paciencia para todos!



			
				nabi said:
			
		

> la verdad es que es necesario que el inmigrante se adapte al nuevo idioma,ya que asi podra tener mayor progreso dentro de un pais que no es el suyo


----------



## Indio Campero

VenusEnvy said:
			
		

> I think that there are many, many issues surrounding this topic. Firstly, there aren't many English-as-a-Second-Language classes out there that are free. The resources just aren't there. And, even if there were more classes offered, reaching out to so many people is difficult. You would need a liason in the community, motivation from the students, and time and money. Immigrants are vastly overrepresented in the lowest-paying jobs. With that being said, many of them need to work two jobs, or work at night. It's difficult to find time for classes. The Spanish-speaking population has grown exponentially recently, which would dignify the need for more resources. Unfortunately, this isn't on the government's list of top priorities.
> 
> Could it be that different cultures place different values on education?
> 
> Another factor may be that in some areas, it's not even necessary anymore! In some areas of MD even, it looks like a Mexican town! Spanish signs, Spanish stores and restaurants, etc. Why learn English if you don't need to?
> 
> Many other countries offer English to its students in grade school; some even
> require it. Many of my friends that have come from other European countries came over being (almost) fluent in English, having learned it in school.
> 
> I wrote a 12-page research paper on Adult literacy, in which I talk to an extent regarding ESL programs for immigrants to the US. (I know this may sound stupid, but if anyone wants to read it, that's fine.)
> 
> 
> If I am wrong about any of this, please tell me. But, the above are only my opinions. I'd like to know what others think, too, Mod.


 

hello Venus Envy!

I believe that what you have said is quite interesting. I would like to read the article you wrote about inmigration to the US. 

I am a native spanish speaker and would like to know more in detail what you think about these topics, cause i repeat, what i read from you has resulted so much interesting to me. 

THanks in advance


----------



## ellas!

To me, I think it's important for Americans to learn Spanish and Hispanics to learn English. It's always useful to know both languages. I think it's ignorant to not speak the language of the country you're living in. But it's probably really scary to go to a country to get the best for your family and to not speak a word of that language. Even if you wanted to learn it's probably hard to find somewhere to go. 

I don't see what's wrong with America having two main languages...


----------



## syndeticdotorg

Whoah...

modgirl, I have a better idea: those Spanish-speaking immigrants who are unable to speak fluent English within 3-5 months after arriving in the U.S. should be executed in public.  Now THAT'S incentive!

If all immigrants are required to run before crawling, we might as well never let them enter this country to begin with.  If we don't provide ANY services in Spanish, most immigrants will just die at our doorsteps.  A country whose policy accepts immigration MUST break down certain barriers for entry; otherwise, ethnic segregation will be even more pronounced and, as VenusEnvy observed in Maryland, "Mexican towns" will be even more prominent due to the lack of basic services provided by the state and/or country, thereby initiating and propagating a vicious circle.  
(Disclaimer: I personally would not mind having clusters of Hispanics dotting our cities.  For my part, I think it's beautiful; it adds more cultural richness to our country.  Not to mention that I would also know where to go to satisfy my _pupusa_ cravings.)

You mentioned that, at one point, there was another language (besides Spanish) that was the second most widely spoken.  Whatever it was, it was a long time ago, and back in those days we simply did not have very advanced telecommunications capabilities, much less plumbing.  Also, we lived in a MUCH MORE ethnocentric country compared to now.

As for why Spanish is more available than other languages, it's due entirely to the comparatively high density of current Spanish speakers.  And I'm sure that those companies that offer their services in Spanish have done their homework and looked long and hard at not only the current density of Spanish speakers but also their growth-rate projections for the near future.

Lastly, it's really not a big deal.  The U.S. is spoiled in comparison to, say, Europe.  The majority of Europeans are, at the very least, bilingual.  If we're going to talk about laziness, is the U.S. not lazy for not promoting greater fluency in other languages such as Spanish?  You see, the argument can swing both ways.  I happen to not mind hearing prompts in Spanish when calling my cell-phone provider.  In fact, I get a little grin on my face and feel a warm fuzzy because I'm relieved to know that the world isn't so narrow-minded after all.

Abrazos,
Tu otro lado


----------



## syndeticdotorg

One other thing: I offer a quote from the book "_Hispanic Nation: Culture, Politics, and the Constructing of Identity_" (p. 5) by Geoffrey E. Fox.  I can't include too much due to copyright restrictions, but here is a nice paragraph that speaks a lot in a few words:

"More specifically, deindustrialization, unemployment, and a drop in real per capita incomes in Latin America over the past twenty to twenty-five years, caused by the precipitous decline in the values of traditional exports and other shifts in the global economy, plus the attendant political and civil strife in the region, have driven recent migration to the United States.  Once here, people from more than twenty Spanish-speaking countries and hundreds of regions that previously had little contact end up crowded into the same neighborhoods and begin creating communities based on their shared language and shared new experience in this country.  These personal contacts enhance the importance of Spanish as a group identifier and bond across national differences, as Ecuadorian and Puerto Rican mothers band together for better day care in the Bronx or Salvadoran and Mexican and Peruvian youth form a soccer league in New Jersey or California.  Such contacts predispose people to a feeling of kinship with other Spanish speakers they have never seen: an imagined community."

(*To admins*: I think the above is short enough to constitute fair use.  If not, please let me know and I'll try to omit a sentence in order to make it shorter.  I'd like to at least include some of it, though, since it summarizes the situation well.)


----------



## Soy Yo

Does anyone else find it ironic that last week President Bush said he thought that everyone should learn English and should sing the National Anthem in English.  The next thing I know, he's hosting a Cinco de Mayo party at the White House.  Being president IS hard.


----------



## danielfranco

I'm sorry if I am repeating previous sentiments already expressed in this thread, but I wanted to mention that I am glad there has been a move towards reaching the LEP (limited English proficiency) population out there... In a purely capitalist and pragmatic point of view, it's just a a stroke of genius to try reaching _a whole fifth_ of the USA population that rather not or cannot speak English proficiently. They still have some dollar bills to spend, and it's better they spend them here, in this country, I think.


----------



## Swettenham

syndeticdotorg said:
			
		

> Whoah...
> 
> modgirl, I have a better idea: those Spanish-speaking immigrants who are unable to speak fluent English within 3-5 months after arriving in the U.S. should be executed in public. Now THAT'S incentive!


I know you're being facitious, syndeticdotorg, but I'd just like to point out for everyone's benefit that you can't be fluent in a language unless you start learning it within the first few years of your life. People who arrive here as adults will never become fluent; however, if they have children in the United States, there is about a 97-100% chance the kids will be fluent in both languages. That's just how the human brain works.

A reasonable and desirable goal will be to have a significant portion of immgrants achieve conversational familiarity with English, while finding ways to connect their insulated Spanish-speaking communities with the larger English-speaking culture.



> Lastly, it's really not a big deal. The U.S. is spoiled in comparison to, say, Europe. The majority of Europeans are, at the very least, bilingual. If we're going to talk about laziness, is the U.S. not lazy for not promoting greater fluency in other languages such as Spanish?


THere are a number of ways of looking at this issue, but I doubt you could attribute the average American's monolingualism to "laziness." As I noted above, you cannot become truly bilingual unless you are raised in a bilingual home or culture--i.e., speak Spanish at home and English at school, or vice versa, or speak English at home and both Spanish and English at school (nice idea, but it will never, ever, ever happen). People in Europe and other places are bilingual not because they "try," but because so many different languages are crammed into a small space. It will be many years before the United States reaches such a language per capita ratio.

A reasonable and desirable goal will be to have a significant portion of English-speaking Americans achieve conversational familiarity with Spanish, while finding ways to connect our self-absorbed English-speaking culture with the growing Spanish-speaking communities among us.


----------



## tvdxer

Many speak some English, but are much more comfortable speaking in Spanish.

Lots of Hispanic immigrants work in low-paying but time-consuming jobs and some don't have enough time to take ESL classes.

Others are simply apathetic and don't want to learn the primary language of their host country.


----------



## Soy Yo

Swettenham said:
			
		

> I know you're being facitious, syndeticdotorg, but I'd just like to point out for everyone's benefit that you can't be fluent in a language unless you start learning it within the first few years of your life. People who arrive here as adults will never become fluent; however, if they have children in the United States, there is about a 97-100% chance the kids will be fluent in both languages. That's just how the human brain works.


 
Sweetenham, I think you are confusing "being fluent" with being "bilingual." There are plenty of people who came to the U.S. as adults who are now fluent in English. Yes, they have an accent and they often say things that are a bit strange....but they are fluent. You are probably correct in saying that they are not "completely bilingual."

Individual talent and drive also play a part. Some speakers even if they don't come here as children can, after several years and much hard work, speak English extremely well (fluently) with a barely detectable accent.


----------



## Chuck Mac

I'm guessing that perhaps big business accomodates the Spanish speaking community because that accomodation smells like money. Obviously, millions of Spanish speaking immigrants spend millions of dollars in this country each day. I could almost guarantee that big business doesn't care whether consumers speak Spanish or any other language. Money does speak a universal language for big businesses.

You know I used to ask this same question as to why Spanish speakers don't learn English. However, I don't ask that question any more. My experience has been that I have been in situations where Spanish speakers approach me speaking Spanish, though I may be in conversation with obvious Spanish speakers. Rather than address their questions to the obvious Spanish speakers, individuals direct their questions to me. Well, I found that created certain types of feelings in me. In fact, older Spanish speakers generally engage me in basic conversation, & I have to inform them that I am unable to speak the language. The day that the Spanish speaking individual told me, "Don't be ashamed to speak your language,", was the day I decided that I wanted to learn to speak Spanish well enough to make a difference.

I still haven't figured out what causes people to engage me in conversation, but I am learning Spanish very well, & I'm glad. I'd like to one day be able to make a difference if, one day, all Spanish speakers in the world choose to learn English. With my little experience with learning Spanish, I can tell you until I'm able to think in the language, I plan to be cautious about showcasing my limited ability to speak the language.

I am able to fluently read Spanish, write Spanish, & can speak some. However, the one ingredient I don't have is the ability to think in Spanish. This could be a reason so many Spanish speaking immigrants hesitate to speak English. What encourages me is the fact that when I do take the chance to speak Spanish, the Spanish speaker takes the chance to speak English with me. Therefore, we're learning together, & that's our connection. Neither of us is imposing upon the other....just helping.


----------



## Brioche

modgirl said:
			
		

> First, I understand that English is not the official language of the United States.


 
That's because the US, officially, doesn't have an official language. Neither does Australia, nor the United Kingdom.

However, the Constitution and the laws of the US are written in English, the courts operate in English, both houses of Congress conduct their debating in English, and the Congressional record is in English, &c &c.

So English may not be _de jure _the official language of the US, but it certainly is _de_ _facto._


----------



## heidita

OrgullomooreNo said:
			
		

> English is the official language of the U.S[/B]. because the original states were property of England, and it was the majority.


 
I posted this on another thread and Fenixpollo confronted me by stating that in the US* there was no first or official language,* like we have in Spain or Germany for instance. So, ¿en qúe quedamos.?


----------



## heidita

Swettenham said:
			
		

> *you can't be fluent in a language unless you start learning it within the first few years of your life. People who arrive here as adults will never become fluent; *
> As I noted above, *you cannot become truly bilingual* unless you are raised in a bilingual home or culture--i.e., speak Spanish at home and English at school, or vice versa, or speak English at home and both Spanish and English at school (nice idea, but it will never, ever, ever happen). People in Europe and other places are bilingual not because they "try," but because so many different languages are crammed into a small space.


 
I found your post interesting and completely wrong. I Went to England at the age of 16 or 17 and stayed for only a year. I consider my English fluent.

I came to Spain at the age of 20; my Spanish is so fluent that even people on the forum have asked me if I am sure that I was born an raised in Germany with no other but German parents. Both of them! Actually, I am even taken for my husband, fortunately only answering the phone (jeje) and this proves that it IS possible to become completely bilingual, if you try hard enough.

I must say that languages is _my cup of tea_, so to speak, but in any case, the Spanish pronunciation is really difficult for a German. But if you try hard enough, I truly believe, you can master anything.

I have seen post which claim that the immigrants after a long and hard day working have no energy left to learn English.  I cannot agree with this , as ANYTHING will cost your effort. Everything depends on whether you are interested enough to improve your personal status in the society you are living , as I do think that speaking the language of the country, even if it were not fluent, is an improvement to yourself and your host country.


----------



## danielfranco

Aquí dejo una búsqueda de google que hice de los términos "usa official language": no official language for USA.
Saludos Tex-Mex


----------



## heidita

Irali said:
			
		

> I´m spanish and I think that in Spain is the same, there are a lot of English or German who live here and they don´t speak spanish, maybe is because they think that if they speak another language they will loose their own culture or is like a betrayal.
> Sorry for my English, is not very good. I hope you understand me.
> 
> Un saludo.


 
I agree with Irali. I have seen many Germans live in close communities and English natives with no interest at all to learn even the slightest amount of the host country's language. I think you cannot expect, even though it is nice, a tourist to learn the language before he comes to spend a holiday, but the people living in, SHOULD do so. I think it is an obligation and a deference to your host country to know a minimum of the host's language.

I don't think it's a question of losing your identity or anything alike, in the Spanish case, as many Germans who come here, are _rich _immigrants, it's a case of pure laziness. The Spanish have this enormous flexibility, which I haven't found in any other country, and will always_ try_ to understand. So, why learn ?


----------



## heidita

Merlin said:
			
		

> I guess the reason is that there are Spanish services that they can take advantage. Customer service for example have spanish options. So as long as there's someone who can help them in a way that they don't have to speak in other language they're assuming that they don't have to speak other languages. I work in a call canter and we have spanish agents. Spanish customers just have to select the option for spanish. In that way they don't have to speak in English anymore.
> On the contrary, I believe they should learn other language (in this thread English in particular) also. It helps a lot actually. What if they landed in a place where nobody speaks spanish? Then they will have a hard time asking and talking to people.
> Am I making any sense here? If you find me way out of the topic, please remind me. I just can't think clearly right now.
> Muchisimas Gracias!!!


 
I also found this discovery very amazing: services are offered in Spanish? 
I couldn't agree more with Modgirl, why learn English? Here in Spain things haven't gone that far. In Germany the same, people want to get any kind of service, speak the language.


----------



## heidita

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> While we are not "helping" immigrants to learn English by offering them services in their native languages what's your alternative? Live in a culture that does not welcome immigrants, that values _'Merkin_ culture above others? Go back to the pre-civil-rights-era attitudes of intolerance and elitism? *Make English the official language and force people to learn English,* as K80 correctly observed? Nothing that is inscribed on the Statue of Liberty, in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution suggests to me that our Founders wanted to establish an intolerant and exclusive nation.


 
Look at this post , Fenix, by *Daniel on the "melting pot" thread*

He thought it was a good idea for his father being forced to learn the language.

[/QUOTE]If my father, and others his age in that community, weren't forced to learn English, a larger pressure would have been placed on us. What my father went through allowed us to begin our lives at a much better spot than him.





> The mothods used (the teachers slapped children who didn't speak English ,defending the idea of "la letra con sangre entra") were of course undefendable, but the result was welcomed by his son, as you can see.


----------



## Brioche

heidita said:
			
		

> I found your post interesting and completely wrong. I Went to England at the age of 16 or 17 and stayed for only a year. I consider my English fluent.
> 
> I came to Spain at the age of 20; my Spanish is so fluent that even people on the forum have asked me if I am sure that I was born an raised in Germany with no other but German parents. Both of them! Actually, I am even taken for my husband, fortunately only answering the phone (jeje) and this proves that it IS possible to become completely bilingual, if you try hard enough.


 
Just because you managed to be tri-lingual doesn't mean that anyone can. 

Learning a language _as an adult_ is not simply a matter of hard work, dedication, or intelligence. A certain aptitude, or natural talent, is needed. 



> _But if you try hard enough, I truly believe, you can master anything_.


 
Do you believe that if you dedicated yourself to it full-time, with the best coaches, that you could be the next goal-keeper for Real Madrid? Or the next Mozart?


----------



## heidita

Brioche said:
			
		

> Just because you managed to be tri-lingual doesn't mean that anyone can.
> 
> Learning a language _as an adult_ is not simply a matter of hard work, dedication, or intelligence. A certain aptitude, or natural talent, is needed.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you believe that if you dedicated yourself to it full-time, with the best coaches, that you could be the next goal-keeper for Real Madrid? Or the next Mozart?


 
We must not forget to what post I was answering. The forer stated that it was IMPOSSIBLE to speak fluently and without any accent if you didn't learn the language from childhood. I prove that it IS possible.

Then we must not confuse perfection with the topic. Nobody is asking the Spanish speakers to speak English perfectly. It is just a matter of insistence in my opinion.

In any case. to answer your question: At least I would try!


----------



## Just_Wil

If I go to the USA and I'm intending to live there, I should learn some English, in the end, how am I going to communicate with the people that don't speak Spanish?
Personally I think that if I go to China, I have to learn how to order lunch in Chinese, at least.


----------



## Bastoune

Pimp_of_the_pimps said:
			
		

> If I go to the USA and I'm intending to live there, I should learn some english, in the end, how am I going to communicate with the people that don't speak spanish?
> Personally I think that if I go to China, I have to learn how to order lunch in chinese, at least.



True!

Of course, anyone in New York who goes into a Korean-owned deli will notice how the Koreans who speak broken English are now trying to speak Spanish to their Hispanic employees because their employees speak no English whatsover.

Only in America!


----------



## heidita

Bastoune said:
			
		

> True!
> 
> Of course, anyone in New York who goes into a Korean-owned deli will notice how the Koreans who speak broken English are now trying to speak Spanish to their Hispanic employees because their employees speak no English whatsover.
> 
> Only in America!


 
I have no idea what a deli might be, but I think that's really surprising and proves the point. If a Korean can lean Spanish in no time, why can't Spanish natives learn English?


----------



## Papalote

Hi, everyone

I`ve tried refraining from venting my outrage at some of the posts, and thought I had mastered the urge. Obviously I haven`t.

I find it very commendable that many immigrants to other countries besides the USA have managed to become fluent in your adopted country`s language. Newvertheless, I find it very presumptuous of most of you to throw stones at people who are not at all in your position. Please, do not forget that we are discussing the USA and a very specific phenomena, that of Mexican and other Central American countries. We are not talking about blond-blue-eyed Europeans immigrating to other european countries. Most of the *migrants* under fire, they are not _immigrants_ (their motives are totally different), have no intention of staying in the States permanently. Most of them want to make enough money to go back to their countries to start a business of their own. So, there is no need for them to speak English as they will never become part of mainstream America. Those who have stayed do speak English. Amongst themselves, they speak Spanish.

If there has been an increase in Spanish signs, services, etc. it`s because the market has perceived this need. If they want to sell, they`ve figured they`ll sell faster and more by speaking the language of their clients. Don`t blame the migrants. Business wants money, and rather than have a non-English speaker buy at a non-English store, they`ll sell in Spanish. Even learn Spanish to make more money by using cheap labour. Why otherwise would any Korean/American use the language?

Business will sell its soul for more money. That`s why since NAFTA most of the labeling is in 3 languages, or is your hatred of anything Spanish blinding you to the fact that there is French on the labels?

So, if you feel frustrated because your own multinationals are now using another language besides English, blame them. Nobody, especially not the migrants (they don`t have the acquiring power for most of these goods), has forced them to use Spanish. But they do. Ask yourselves why, but don`t blame Spanish-speakers. Blame greed.

Respectfully,

Papalote


----------



## ElaineG

Bastoune said:
			
		

> True!
> 
> Of course, anyone in New York who goes into a Korean-owned deli will notice how the Koreans who speak broken English are now trying to speak Spanish to their Hispanic employees because their employees speak no English whatsover.
> 
> Only in America!


 
Maybe you have to be a life-long New Yorker to appreciate all the funny ironies of this post.

For many years, the Koreans (incredibly hard-working people who saw a need -- the all-night all-things-to-all-people deli/greengrocer -- and filled it incredibly well) were notoriously bad at English. 

You've only been in New York for 5 years, Bastoune, but if you go back 20 or 25 years, all a certain kind of person could complain about was how impossible it was to communicate with the Koreans at the corner store who simply _refused_ to learn English. The complaints were endless: They didn't speak English, they didn't understand English, their accent was so thick you couldn't understand them when they were speaking English, _plus_ the Koreans were endlessly criticized for not adapting to our cultural ways. In many cases, they were replacing local Jewish or Italian grocers (whose assimilated children wanted no part of the grocery business) who had been neighborhood fixtures for years, and who routinely chatted with customers, knew them by name, etc. etc. In contrast, the Koreans were viewed as rude, taciturn, and unfriendly.

I'm a pretty tolerant person, but even I was reduced to cursing under my breath a few times after I had to repeat (ever slower, more enunciated and clearer): "NO! Not toilet paper, TAMPAX. Yes, TAMPAX. No, not contact lens solution, TAMPAX. TAM - PAX." (After all, while every native New Yorker knows a few words of Spanish, not many of us have an inkling of Korean). Or not getting a flicker of acknowledgment, even when I frequented the same deli daily for years.

Well, the Koreans learned a lot about America. Even as newer immigrants took over the stores in some cases, the older immigrants passed on their acquired knowledge: smile, say "hello", don't put anyone who doesn't speak _any_ English at the cash register, etc. etc. But it took _time_ and it was a learning experience for the city as well as the Koreans. A truly chatty Korean deli owner is still worthy of note, but people have learned to adjust their expectations in that regard.

In the early days, the Koreans had an ample supply of cheap Korean labor and preferred to hire among their own. Those stockboys didn't speak a word of English either. As assimilation has worked its magic, that labor pool has dried up.

So, now they hire Hispanics. In many cases, they choose to hire illegals because they don't have to pay minimum wage, social security, payroll tax, etc. etc. So, they get the people with the least options, and consequently the least language skills. 

Teaching them English isn't the shopkeepers priority: do you remember the old old Yiddish joke? 

A man goes into a Jewish deli, and is served by a Chinese waiter who speaks to him in fluent Yiddish. The customer is astonished but pleased.
As he is paying his check, he asks the owner, "Where did you find a Chinese guy who speaks perfect Yiddish?" And the owner says, "Shhhhhh. He thinks we're teaching him English!"

Anyway, it's a silly joke but the point holds true: Why would a Korean deli owner who gets cheap labor want his workforce to acquire more skills that would enable them to leave his employ? Isn't it easier to just learn a few words of Spanish?

In any event, this discussion has become grotesquely tired as we carry it on over thread after thread after thread.

My point in this long boring post is that immigrants adapt over time to American culture, finding their own balance at a workable point. Hispanics will too.

Bastoune's myth of the Hispanics who _refuse_ to learn English remains just that a myth -- divorced from history, context and reality.

I should learn to stop answering this drivel!


----------



## cuchuflete

heidita said:
			
		

> I have no idea what a deli might be, but I think that's really surprising and proves the point. If a Korean can lean Spanish in no time, why can't Spanish natives learn English?



Heidita, you confuse me.
You quoted a passage that made reference to Koreans
who "...are now trying to speak Spanish to their Hispanic employees ".

Where does it say that a Korean can learn Spanish in no time?

Nowhere!

It doesn't say what you said it says!


----------



## Brioche

heidita said:
			
		

> We must not forget to what post I was answering. The forer stated that it was IMPOSSIBLE to speak fluently and without any accent if you didn't learn the language from childhood. I prove that it IS possible.
> 
> Then we must not confuse perfection with the topic. Nobody is asking the Spanish speakers to speak English perfectly. It is just a matter of insistence in my opinion.


 
Hillary managed to climb Mt Everest. 
Does that mean any and everyone can?
No.
Heidita manages to speak three languages with an accent.
Does this mean any and everyone can?
No.

As with every human ability, there is a distribution in the ability to learn languages.

There are a few people, a _tiny percentage_ of the population, who can - as adults - learn to speak a second language fluently and without an accent.
They happen to have been blessed with a very rare gift.


----------



## roxcyn

modgirl said:
			
		

> I realize that this may sound judgmental, but is there a reason why more native Spanish speakers don't learn English when they plan to live in the United States?


It is very similar to Canada, things are in French and English.  It is a very simple concept---many people feel most confident in their native language.  Just like if you went to Spain---of course everything isn't in English, but there are English sites...and if you buy a phone card you can select an option in English...many products have English, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, French, et al directions. 

Then another example I was telling people...some people come over illegal or legal as children such as 15 or even 18 with their parents.  Imagine if you went to another country with your family and had to go.  I am sure you would be afraid or maybe not even want to use/learn another language.  

Also I would encourage people to go to *Literacy Council* organization.  It is almost in every major city, Dallas *Literacy Council*, funded by United Way.  They offer free English classes, GED classes, et al. 

Cheers!


----------



## Kiwini

Hi,
You are right.  In many countries of Europe a second language is a must in schools from the 1st years when children are 6 or 7.  I've even heard that a third language started to be optional in some schools -especially in private ones-  Usually people choose English & French and we can't forget at least in Spain that we have 5 official languages, so in some regions pupils are "obligued" to learn one of these languages too.

You are right too when saying that people that migrate to the USA use to be people with a low cultural level, and they have to work hard to support their families, so they have no time to learn English, that's what I appreciated in my last trip to New York.

Many other countries offer English to its students in grade school; some even 
require it. Many of my friends that have come from other European countries came over being (almost) fluent in English, having learned it in school.


----------



## heidita

Papalote said:
			
		

> Hi, everyone
> 
> , I find it very presumptuous of most of you to throw stones at people who are not at all in your position. Please, do not forget that we are discussing the USA and a very specific phenomena, that of Mexican and other Central American countries. We are *not talking about blond-blue-eyed Europeans immigrating to other European countries*. Most of the *migrants* under fire, they are not _immigrants_ (their motives are totally different), have no intention of staying in the States permanently. Most of them want to make enough money to go back to their countries to start a business of their own. So, there is no need for them to speak English as they will never become part of mainstream America. *Those who have stayed do speak English.*


 
You don not see to be very documented about the immigration over here in Europe. Blue-eyed and blond are Slovenians, Poles, Romanians , Russians, etc and they are just as "poor" immigrants as the immigrants we are talking about in the US. I suppose there blue-eyed immigration also exists, doesn't it? But here we are not talking about them. So don't get heated up.

You also claim that migrants do have no need to speak the language as they are not going to stay _forever_. So, how long will they stay? Only for say _20 years_? Your reasoning surprises me to say the least. So, only those who stay for a life time need the language of the host country? How do they know from the beginning that they are not going to stay? It happens all the time. I actually came to the country for quite the opposite reason, I came to learn the language and was going to move on. Here I am , 30 years now and counting.
If those who have stayed _do speak English_, then what is this thread all about? The fact, oviously is, that they do NOT speak English or bother to learn the language. Blue eyed Slovenians, Russians etc who have come to this country, speak _understandable _Spanish in no time. And they must have great difficulty in learning the language, and they work in very hard jobs, too.


----------



## heidita

Brioche said:
			
		

> Hillary managed to climb Mt Everest.
> Does that mean any and everyone can?
> No.
> 
> I agree. She did? surprising!
> 
> Heidita manages to speak three languages without an accent.
> Does this mean any and everyone can?
> No.
> 
> I agree again. But I didn't say that everybody could. I just stated that it WAS possible.
> 
> .


 
In any case, I do not think the idea is to learn a language _perfectly_, as this is not necessary to communicate. In my posts I do not think I claimed that immigrants, anywhere, should learn their host country's language "perfectly".


----------



## heidita

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Heidita, you confuse me.
> You quoted a passage that made reference to Koreans
> who "...are now trying to speak Spanish to their Hispanic employees ".
> 
> Where does it say that a Korean can learn Spanish in no time?
> 
> Nowhere!
> 
> It doesn't say what you said it says!


 
I couldn't agree less, as Elaine has expanded on the post and explained that this employing Hispanics by Koreans is a new method to get cheap labour. So, they must have learned Spanish in no time as this phenomena didn't exist before. In any case, obviously, and I must suppose this from the posts, Koreans learn faster Spanish than Spanish immigrants English. Considering the fact that the surroundings are English spoken I am just very must surprised.


----------



## Soy Yo

Well, here I go chiming in again too. Perhaps we should remember that many Hispanic immigrants in the U.S. are here illegally. Their "illegal" status makes them fearful of signing up for education and self-improvement programs.... They work hard, long hours, there is little time left for them to concentrate on learning English, their workmates are likely also to be Spanish-speaking so they don't have to know English to get along well at work, etc., etc. I can't say that I "blame" this segment of the population for not learning English. This is not to say that they can't or that they don't want (refuse) to learn English, simply that their current circumstances do not require it and they may fear being "noticed" by the authorities. Their children ("born in the U.S.A" or not) will no doubt learn English and the family will continue to manage and, it is to be hoped, progress while the assimilation process runs its course.

Having said this, we do need to come to grips with the continuing illegal immigration simply because it makes no sense to have "immigration laws" that neither U.S. citizens nor the immigrants respect or obey.


----------



## Papalote

heidita said:
			
		

> You don not see to be very documented about the immigration over here in Europe. Blue-eyed and blond are Slovenians, Poles, Romanians , Russians, etc and they are just as "poor" immigrants as the immigrants we are talking about in the US. I suppose there blue-eyed immigration also exists, doesn't it? But here we are not talking about them. So don't get heated up.
> 
> You also claim that *migrants* (yes, I wasn`t speaking of immigrants) do have no need to speak the language as they are not going to stay _forever_. So, how long will they stay? (only until the season is finished, like the tourist season, working in the fields) Only for say _20 years_? (where did you get your statistics from?) Your reasoning surprises me to say the least. So, only those who stay for a life time need the language of the host country? (it`s your reasoning that surprises me, How do they know from the beginning that they are not going to stay? (because if you read some of the published studies regarding this situation, you would be aware of the fact that most of them *hope* they will be going there just to get enough money *to go back to their countries and start over*.) It happens all the time. I actually came to the country for quite the opposite reason, I came to learn the language and was going to move on. Here I am , 30 years now and counting. (we were not talking about you but about immigration from one culture to a very different one). If those who have stayed _do speak English_, then what is this thread all about? The fact, oviously is, that they do NOT speak English or bother to learn the language. (again, where do you get your info from?) Blue eyed Slovenians, Russians etc who have come to this country, speak _understandable _Spanish (so do most immigrants in the USA, speaka understandable English, that is) in no time (how do you know this?). And they must have great difficulty in learning the language (depends if they are good at languages or not), and they work in very hard jobs, too.


 
Obviously you do not know much about how hispanics live in the USA, except for what you want to retain from your readings of warmongering bigotted Americans (shame on them). Your point of view is very restricted, to your own experience  in Europe as an immigrant of a very similar life-style, which makes me wonder why you feel so threatened by something which does not touch your life at all. 

As many have pointed out in this and many other threads, second generation immigrants speak the language of their adopted country. How do you know that first generation immigrants do not speak *any *English at all? It is obvious that those forer@s who say that Spanish is taking over because *immigrants* refuse to speak the language confusing *legal immigrants* with *migrant workers and illegal workers*, who, as I pointed out, have no need to speak the language because, if you had been aware of their reality, remain in the country for just a few months, until their *occasional* job is finished. They have barely any contact with English-speakers as they work in the fields or in kitchens or picking up garbage in the streets. There are many workers like this. You can meet them at airports at the end of the season, tourist, agricultural, etc. *leaving* the country legally, to come back the following crop season, or tourist season.

How come you ignored the economic factor I pointed out? As an English-Canadian in Montreal once told an attendant in a shop: «When I sell in this Province, I sell in the language of my clients. When I buy, I expect to buy in my language. Money gives me that power.» And, realistically speaking, that is the only power these *migrant* workers have. For those *legal immigrants* under fire, only 1 out of 10 Americans, if governments and insurance companies and businesses hadn`t seen their economic potential, believe me, Spanish wouldn`ve never survived past the first generation.

My thesis in university was about emigration, specifically rural to urban migration. I still have contacts amongst scholars who have been studying, for many decades, the different problems caused, not only to individuals, but to societies as a whole. Grant me the right to know what I am writing about.

I apologize in advance for not writing anymore in this thread. When emotions get in the way, nobody wins. I have found that, when specific groups are perceived as being less that others, nothing, not even war, or a wall, will change that perception. 

I give up. Sadly.

Respectfully,

Papalote


----------



## lablady

I've tried to stay out of this controversial and somewhat argumentative thread, but along with thoughts that have already been posted I think there's a small factor that has also been forgotten.  

Firstly, yes, some immigrants are here illegally and some are not.  Yes, there are some immigrants, both legal and illegal, who appear to be resistant to learning a new language... but some are not.  Yes, there are those businesses who are merely in search of the almighty dollar. The world is full of a variety of people, each with their own thoughts, opinions and motives.  Without that diversity, the world would be a boring place with nothing (or no one) to talk about.

Secondly, it takes *time* and effort to learn a new language.  The traffic on these forums shows that _all_ languages have their difficulties for non-native speakers.  If all of our forer@s were able to easily understand on their own the nuances of a language they are learning, there would be no need for the forums.  I think it is unreasonable to expect _anyone_ to almost immediately be able to comfortably conduct their entire life in a new language.

Therefore, I am not against the practice of using multiple languages in business or in governmental agencies.  It is much easier for someone to make an educated decision if their options are explained to them in the language they are most familiar with.  

I wouldn't like to have to try to decide what phone plan I wanted, or to call a service center, or even to decide what to vote for if I had to make my choices based on my understanding a language I had just started to learn.  These are just a few examples.  There are many more. Many of these things are written in a way that is difficult for me, a highly educated native-speaker, to understand.  So how can we ask a new resident with a limited grasp of English to do so?  To me, having multilingual services is more a means of assisting our newcomers than "giving in".

And yes, there will be those who take unfair advantage of it.  That's human nature.


----------



## Bastoune

lablady said:
			
		

> Therefore, I am not against the practice of using multiple languages in business or in governmental agencies. It is much easier for someone to make an educated decision if their options are explained to them in the language they are most familiar with.


 
Then there needs to be equal opportunity for all linguistic groups to have this access, access to such services.  That is the main problem I see.


----------



## Outsider

I think that in this debate there's an unfortunate tendency to confuse equality between _speakers_ with equality between _languages_. Every person should count, but if 70% of the immigrants in some region speak Spanish and only 2% of them speak Mongolian...


----------



## lablady

Outsider said:
			
		

> I think that in this debate there's an unfortunate tendency to confuse equality between _speakers_ with equality between _languages_. Every person should count, but if 70% of the immigrants in some region speak Spanish and only 2% of them speak Mongolian...


 
Thank you Outsider, you beat me to it  .

I live in an area which could be considered a "melting pot" on its own.  There are services available here in English, Spanish, Hmong, Laotian and Tagalog, just to name a few.  Granted, not all services are available in all these languages, and some services are available in more languages than these.  It's not a perfect system and there are no uniform requirements.  It's a matter of attempting to address the needs of the greatest number of people.  In this area, those languages are used the most frequently.


----------



## Bastoune

Outsider said:
			
		

> I think that in this debate there's an unfortunate tendency to confuse equality between _speakers_ with equality between _languages_. Every person should count, but if 70% of the immigrants in some region speak Spanish and only 2% of them speak Mongolian...



True... then isn't it easier to start to implement programs focused on *linguistic immigration* of the larger group than for the smaller group?


----------



## heidita

heidita said:
			
		

> You don not see to be very documented about the immigration over here in Europe. Blue-eyed and blond are Slovenians, Poles, Romanians , Russians, etc and they are just as "poor" immigrants as the immigrants we are talking about in the US. I suppose there blue-eyed immigration also exists, doesn't it? But here we are not talking about them. So don't get heated up.
> 
> You also claim that migrants do have no need to speak the language as they are not going to stay _forever_. So, how long will they stay? Only for say _20 years_? ( I get my statistics from my own experience her in Spain. You seem to think that the only country which has immigrants, or migrants, is the US; there are short time migratns here in Sapin too, who come for the season of tsay harvesting olives and go back to their country. I didn't hink we were talking about them, as they stay for such a short time that it would be impossible, even for a gifted person to learn the language in three weeks.)) Your reasoning surprises me to say the least. So, only those who stay for a life time need the language of the host country? How do they know from the beginning that they are not going to stay? (Yes, hoping is one thing and what they do is another!)It happens all the time. I actually came to the country for quite the opposite reason, I came to learn the language and was going to move on. ( I know we are not talking about ME. I was just giving an examle of the statemnet before. And where did you get the idea that the German culture and The Spanish one are similar?)Here I am , 30 years now and counting.
> If those who have stayed _do speak English_, then what is this thread all about? The fact, oviously is, that they do NOT speak English or bother to learn the language.(Have you forgotten the thread? It is about Hispanics not learning the language , I thought?!) Blue eyed Slovenians, Russians etc who have come to this country, speak _understandable _Spanish in no time.What do you mean :how do I know? Of course I know, I live here!) And they must have great difficulty in learning the language, (Here I was referring to their VERY different language background, as some, like Russians, even have a different alphabet)and they work in very hard jobs, too.


 
I hope I have answered all your questions.


----------



## heidita

Papalote said:
			
		

> Obviously you do not know much about how hispanics live in the USA, except for what you want to retain from your readings of warmongering bigotted Americans (shame on them). Your point of view is very restricted, to your own experience in Europe as an immigrant of a very similar life-style, ( You couldn't be wronger)which makes me wonder why you feel so threatened (where did I say that I felt threatened? ) by something which does not touch your life at all. (immigration does touch my life, as I live with a lot of immigrants, and let's not forget, I am an immigrant myself.)
> 
> As many have pointed out in this and many other threads, second generation immigrants speak the language of their adopted country. How do you know that first generation immigrants do not speak *any *English at all? It is obvious that those forer@s who say that Spanish is taking over because *immigrants* refuse to speak the language confusing *legal immigrants* with *migrant workers and illegal workers*,(I thought it were the illegal immigrants who marched on the 1st of May to legalize their situation and do obviously not agree with you as they DO want to stay on) who, as I pointed out, have no need to speak the language because, if you had been aware of their reality, remain in the country for just a few months, until their *occasional* job is finished. They have barely any contact with English-speakers as they work in the fields or in kitchens or picking up garbage in the streets. There are many workers like this. You can meet them at airports at the end of the season, tourist, agricultural, etc. *leaving* the country legally, to come back the following crop season, or tourist season.
> 
> How come you ignored the economic factor I pointed out? As an English-Canadian in Montreal once told an attendant in a shop: «When I sell in this Province, I sell in the language of my clients. When I buy, I expect to buy in my language. Money gives me that power.» And, realistically speaking, that is the only power these *migrant* workers have. For those *legal immigrants* under fire, only 1 out of 10 Americans, if governments and insurance companies and businesses hadn`t seen their economic potential, believe me, Spanish wouldn`ve never survived past the first generation.
> 
> My thesis in university was about emigration, specifically rural to urban migration. I still have contacts amongst scholars who have been studying, for many decades, the different problems caused, not only to individuals, but to societies as a whole. Grant me the right to know what I am writing about.
> 
> I apologize in advance for not writing anymore in this thread. When emotions get in the way, nobody wins. I have found that, when specific groups are perceived as being less that others, nothing, not even war, or a wall, will change that perception. ( I think one should NEVER give up...on anybody or anything)
> 
> I give up. Sadly.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Papalote


 
Well, if you have decided not to post here again, I will stand alone with this post, but anyway, no he de callar.........


----------



## Just_Wil

Nobody would think that Costa Rica had a very high rate of immigration. They all come from many different countries (Nicaragua, Colombia, Dominicana, Haití, Cuba, China, Korea). Specifically, I wanted to mention these people that come from far places like Taiwan, Korea, China, they all do their best to speak Spanish and I see it's difficult for them at times, but they know they're living in a nation where Spanish is the official language, they have to speak Spanish if they want to communicate. So, I think that all immigrants should learn the language of the nation they are intending to live in.


----------



## cuchuflete

This was the question posed in the first post:



> *Is there a reason why more native Spanish speakers don't learn English when they plan to live in the United States?*



It might be interesting to see answers to that question, instead of the same things said in the many other posts about immigration.  Please try to stick to this topic....in this thread.  There are other threads where you can freely express your philosophies about immigration etc.


----------



## djchak

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> This was the question posed in the first post:
> 
> 
> 
> It might be interesting to see answers to that question, instead of the same things said in the many other posts about immigration.  Please try to stick to this topic....in this thread.  There are other threads where you can freely express your philosophies about immigration etc.



" So, I think that all immigrants should learn the language of the nation they are intending to live in."

Well, obviously they should. But the problem is that some migrants are setting up communities that are self segregated, not only in language but in culture. Obviously this has happened many times before in US history, it's just that political topics of assimilation, immigration, and law are forcing everyone to see the willing cultural segregation that has been taking place in the southwestern states. It's about more than "speaking spanish", since spanish has been a major language in those areas since 1850.....


----------



## Swettenham

My linguistics professor explained that a test was once done on two groups of college students. One group was played a video of an Ohioan giving a lecture. THe other group watched a video of an Asian man lecturing, but the voice was that of the Ohioan-- it was the same voice of the same man giving the same speech. The group that saw the Ohioan reported that they understood him well, but the other group reported that the speaker had an accent and was difficult to understand! 

It is normally our fault if we don't understand non-native speakers of English. If people were more patient and less biased, they'd find that it is possible to communicate in English with non-native speakers, whether they have a strong accent and limited vocabulary or a limited accent and strong vocabulary.


----------



## heidita

Swettenham said:
			
		

> It is normally our fault if we don't understand non-native speakers of English. If people were more patient and less biased, they'd find that it is possible to communicate in English with non-native speakers, whether they have a strong accent and limited vocabulary or a limited accent and strong vocabulary.


 
I have posted so many posts referring to the fact that I think immigrants should learn the language of their host country. But I must also agree with this point. I haven't ever known people less flexible in ways of understanding and _willing to understand_ than the English speaking natives. Either you speak the language well, or you will not be understood.

There is a great difference with the Spanish natives (Hispanics and Spaniards the same), who will always try to understand a foreigner and mostly do so.


----------



## Swettenham

heidita said:
			
		

> I have posted so many posts referring to the fact that I think immigrants should learn the language of their host country. But I must also agree with this point. I haven't ever known people less flexible in ways of understanding and _willing to understand_ than the English speaking natives. Either you speak the language well, or you will not be understood.
> 
> There is a great difference with the Spanish natives (Hispanics and Spaniards the same), who will always try to understand a foreigner and mostly do so.


First, I have to correct my earlier post in light of your and Soy Yo's comments. I was confusing terms. I agree that adults can become fluent in a second language, given WordReference's definition of "fluent" as "expressing yourself readily, clearly, effectively." What I was emphasizing was the difference between fluency and native-like proficiency, which is a qualitative difference. This ties in with my latest post because I think that people should be more forgiving of immigrants who cannot speak like natives.

My opinion is that in conversation with low-proficiency speakers, we should focus not on how well they express themselves but on what they are trying to say. You're smart, folks, work together and figure it out.

As for the bias of English-speaking natives, you have to take these things on a case-by-case basis. Some of us are so accustomed to foreign accents (in daily conversation, in the media, in the government, everywhere), that we consider them part of the soundscape of our culture. Others are rigidly intolerant, which is unfortunate but inevitable. 



			
				modgirl said:
			
		

> is there a reason why more native Spanish speakers don't learn English when they plan to live in the United States?


1. The education systems and economies in some Latin American countries. Many people don't have access to books, let alone multimedia mass-communication technology. How can they be exposed to a foreign language?

2. Language is context. No matter how many classes they take in their home countries, their education can begin only when they come here. I studied French for 10 years and can't speak it; I've studied Spanish for four years and speak it every day. Why? Because Spanish is part of my surroundings. Latin Americans don't have the same opportunity to speak English at home.

When immigrants arrive here, they begin a difficult process. The main issue in question is their job opportunities as non-English-speakers, not our right not to hear Spanish. If they can get by without the language, I say more power to them. It's kind of inspiring to me. If they find that not being able to speak English is a significant obstacle, then they will find ways to learn. That's also inspiring to me.


----------



## mora

Hello

Whatever happened to FREEDOM? Whatever happened to CHOICE? Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that these things are  are only for people who already speak English. Any Spanish speaker in the US will benefit from learning English, it is clear to me that a bilingual person will have better access to services, jobs, education, income etc. If a person  does not learn English, there could be many reasons- choice, opportunity, ability, time pressures, but I thought that the USA was a free country, where people can choose what level of self-improvement they wish. People 'should' obey the law, respect others, but other than that I  do not want to say what anyone else 'should' do. I know I 'should' lose weight, I 'should' pay down my debts etc etc etc. but in a free society, one 'should' be free to do whatever I want with respect to language. Yes, it is good to learn English in the US, but what are you going to do, round people up and put them in prison for failing to learn English? It is all solved in a generation anyway, when the kids grow up perfectly bilingual, making the US workforce more capable and better positioned for world trade. Instead of saying 'Spanish speakers should learn English' one should thank them for what they will bring to the future of the USA. 

mora


----------



## djchak

mora said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> Whatever happened to FREEDOM? Whatever happened to CHOICE? Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that these things are  are only for people who already speak English. Any Spanish speaker in the US will benefit from learning English, it is clear to me that a bilingual person will have better access to services, jobs, education, income etc. If a person  does not learn English, there could be many reasons- choice, opportunity, ability, time pressures, but I thought that the USA was a free country, where people can choose what level of self-improvement they wish. People 'should' obey the law, respect others, but other than that I  do not want to say what anyone else 'should' do. I know I 'should' lose weight, I 'should' pay down my debts etc etc etc. but in a free society, one 'should' be free to do whatever I want with respect to language. Yes, it is good to learn English in the US, but what are you going to do, round people up and put them in prison for failing to learn English? It is all solved in a generation anyway, when the kids grow up perfectly bilingual, making the US workforce more capable and better positioned for world trade. Instead of saying 'Spanish speakers should learn English' one should thank them for what they will bring to the future of the USA.
> 
> mora


So what's your point? That we shouldn't force them to learn English? No one is...it's not a crime to speak any language in the United States. No one is talking away thier freedom and choice in a forcible way. But many people think you need more than Spanish to live in the US on an everyday basis.

Again, this is open to opinion.

It's like someone from Wales, who speaks Welsh as a primary language, complaining that they shouldn't have to learn/know English. They can have that opinion, but it's obviously not going to be practical in many situations.


----------



## fenixpollo

djchak said:
			
		

> It's like someone from Wales, who speaks Welsh as a primary language, complaining that they shouldn't have to learn/know English.


 It's not like that at all, because nobody is complaining that they _shouldn't_ have to learn/know English.


----------



## vince

I'm sure everyone agrees that it is beneficial for immigrants to learn English, because they are then bilingual and are exposed to more opportunities.

But should immigrants be FORCED to learn English? i.e. should they be denied certain services or even deported for segregating themselves and not making an attempt to learn English?


----------



## maxiogee

vince said:
			
		

> But should immigrants be FORCED to learn English? i.e. should they be denied certain services or even deported for segregating themselves and not making an attempt to learn English?



Only if the English-speakers face similar strictures for abusing the language beyond recognition!
Who is to say how much is enough? Or, what quality would pass? 
Would that refuse the right to leave a reservation to a Native American?


----------



## djchak

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> It's not like that at all, because nobody is complaining that they _shouldn't_ have to learn/know English.



Yes, but obviously some people here are saying that they shouldn't have to learn English when residing in the US, that "freedom" and "choice" should dictate that if they don't speak English, obviously the people of the US should know Spanish to communicate instead.

So that was the best analogy I could come up with at the time, if the Welsh DID act that way (which they do not).

People keep trying to make this an "Spanish vs. English" argument. It isn't.
No one is saying the leading foreign language being taught in the US (Spanish)
should suddenly not be taught anymore. This has everything to do with politics and other things, that don't directly relate to a true "cultural issue".


----------



## fenixpollo

This is 100% a cultural issue, in which politics are being used to manipulate the culture.  One group of people wants the culture of English-speaking people of European descent to dominate.  Other groups (not only the Spanish-speaking ones) don't want to be dominated by another culture and be forced to assimilate on that culture's terms.  

It sounds like you think that they feel entitled to receive services in their native language, rather than learn English.  I think that they are entitled to speak whatever language they want because that is their right.  If the cost of ensuring that right is to spend a few taxpayer dollars on providing services in their native language (whatever that may be), then so be it.  Remember, freedom is not free.  

The alternative to protecting that freedom is denying it, and as maxiogee pointed out, having a Language Police would not be practical or practicable.


----------



## maxiogee

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> *(maxiogee's edit in blue)*
> It sounds like you think that they feel entitled to receive services in their native language, rather than learn English.  I think that they are entitled to speak whatever language they want because that is their right.  If the cost of ensuring that right is to spend a few taxpayer dollars on providing *state-*services in their native language (whatever that may be), then so be it.  Remember, freedom is not free.


As long as the state doesn't impose on private enterprise a requirement to do so I'd be happy. The corollary to their freedom to maintain their existing loanguage, is that of others not to cater for them if they so wish.


----------



## djchak

maxiogee said:
			
		

> As long as the state doesn't impose on private enterprise a requirement to do so I'd be happy. The corollary to their freedom to maintain their existing loanguage, is that of others not to cater for them if they so wish.



"loan- gauge". LOL. Nice fruedian slip.

I fail to see where their freedoms are being curtailed just becuase we might choose not to spend state funds on translating things to Spanish.

At this stage, that's the least of the worries of this particular community right now.

Unless you are stating that learning English in the US is being "dominated" by "Anglo - imperial" culture

Also, if you are telling me that politics is only another form of culture ...... well heck that can be a thread onto itself....

"Remember, freedom is not free.  "

You do know that can mean anything.....


----------



## maxiogee

djchak said:
			
		

> I fail to see where their freedoms are being curtailed just becuase we might choose not to spend state funds on translating things to Spanish.



I take it you accept that all the citizens of a nation have the right to be addressed equally by that nation's official bodies? 
And that the lack of any official National Language means that the Spanish-speaker is on an equal footing with the English-Speaker when the state wishes to deal with both of them.
The state cannot assert that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" and not make (at the very least) its laws available to the citizens.


----------



## djchak

maxiogee said:
			
		

> I take it you accept that all the citizens of a nation have the right to be addressed equally by that nation's official bodies?
> And that the lack of any official National Language means that the Spanish-speaker is on an equal footing with the English-Speaker when the state wishes to deal with both of them.
> The state cannot assert that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" and not make (at the very least) its laws available to the citizens.



"the lack of any official National Language" is what makes any "footing" by any side purposefully vague. As in, the state is under no obligation to use either Spanish or English as a language. As long as they use some form of language that can be understood by the majority of the populace. (of that state)

So they are on "equal footing", as neither language is OFFICIALLY supported by the law.

Up until this point ( we are talking 250 years in some cases) there was never a need to make an official language, as it was assumed everyone would adopt English as a de facto main language....hence no need for a "language police" that would hinder learning of multiple languages....

Knowing Spanish itself is not the problem, nor is knowing Tagalog, Urdu, Dutch, German, French , etc... the lack of an "official language" was purposeful. It was probably meant to promote English as a standard US language, but not at the expense of keeping other languages out of useage.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

djchak said:
			
		

> Knowing Spanish itself is not the problem, nor is knowing Tagalog, Urdu, Dutch, German, French , etc... the lack of an "official language" was purposeful. It was probably meant to promote English as a standard US language, but not at the expense of keeping other languages out of useage.


I doubt that the "lack" of an official language had a _purpose_. I think that it did not exist because there didn't seem to be a need. for a law to have people do what they were doing naturally anyway. I don't think anything has changed since; this country has always been linguisitically diverse but public life takes place mostly in English so those who want to be involved in public life have a reason for speaking that language.

Even if English were the official national language, this would not prevent people from speaking other languages if they wish. You can go to Montana and speak all the Spanish you want--you can even read the state motto "Oro y plata" in Spanish--although that state's official language is English.


----------



## maxiogee

djchak said:
			
		

> "the lack of any official National Language" is what makes any "footing" by any side purposefully vague. As in, the state is under no obligation to use either Spanish or English as a language. As long as they use some form of language that can be understood by the majority of the populace. (of that state)



Why "majority"? 
Surely the laws apply to everyone, and the state's duty is to everyone?


----------



## fenixpollo

Likewise, my state is free to choose the religiously chauvenistic motto "Didat Deus" (God Enriches) on its state seal; and I am free to read it... if I understand Latin.


----------



## djchak

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Why "majority"?
> Surely the laws apply to everyone, and the state's duty is to everyone?



Becuase there might be someone (in the minority) who doesn't know either language fluently, but rights still apply to them. They just can't translate them yet.


----------



## maxiogee

maxiogee said:
			
		

> djchak said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"the lack of any official National Language" is what makes any "footing" by any side purposefully vague. As in, the state is under no obligation to use either Spanish or English as a language. As long as they use some form of language that can be understood by the majority of the populace. (of that state)
> _
> 
> 
> 
> Why "majority"?
> Surely the laws apply to everyone, and the state's duty is to everyone?
Click to expand...




			
				djchak said:
			
		

> Becuase there might be someone (in the minority) who doesn't know either language fluently, but rights still apply to them. They just can't translate them yet.



 So let me check that I understand you…

 The state finances should only go to printing things in English-only because there might be people who don't speak English or Spanish?


----------



## djchak

maxiogee said:
			
		

> So let me check that I understand you…
> 
> The state finances should only go to printing things in English-only because there might be people who don't speak English or Spanish?



I'm saying that as long as there is no official language, it's going to be a problem for someone either way.


----------



## cuchuflete

djchak said:
			
		

> I'm saying that as long as there is no official language, it's going to be a problem for someone either way.



It's going to be a problem?  What is "it"?
New Mexico has two official state languages, English and Spanish.  Most states have no official language.  Life proceeds.

May the stupid politicians who just voted for, sort of, almost, a 'national' language be dipped in pig manure.  Now they have created a wee little problem.  If English is the official language, who is to define what English is?  We don't have an academy to prescribe, proscribe, or describe English.  Hence 
it is free to grow, even allowing for its constant abuse by the illiterates who just declared it a 'national language'.


----------



## maxiogee

The Queen can always use some extra income - you wouldn't believe how much corgis eat - and I'm sure she could be persuaded to employ a few flunkeys who would proofread any official documents to ensure that they are in Her Language.


----------



## Residente Calle 13

maxiogee said:
			
		

> The Queen can always use some extra income - you wouldn't believe how much corgis eat - and I'm sure she could be persuaded to employ a few flunkeys who would proofread any official documents to ensure that they are in Her Language.



But that's the whole thing, you see. I don't think the US will or will want to adopt the Queen's English as an official or national language. The main reason is that so very few Americans speak it.


----------



## fenixpollo

djchak said:
			
		

> I'm saying that as long as there is no official language, it's going to be a problem for someone either way.


 Tell me which scenario offers more problems: 

no national language, in which governments may (but are not required to) spend money offering services in languages other than English;
a national language, in which governments save all kinds of money by excluding people from participating in the democratic process unless they can speak English well.
hmm....


----------



## Marias-espanol

Hello, This is my opinion.  They come to the U.S. for a better life.  Even we came (or our ancestors came from other countries).  I have been trying to learn another language for several years, it is very hard.  I have 3 kids, and a husband just like most of them.  I don't have a lot of time to study.  I know some that speak English just as well as I do.  Some that don't speak much.  Some that don't speak any at all (some just got here).  Yes it is easy for them to get by because there are so many people that can translate for them, some places they don't need to learn.(I am not saying that they shouldn't.)  Yes the kids do speak English and Spanish.  They translate for the parents.  Some speak English to the parents and the parents speak Spanish to them.  I thought this was neat the first time I heard this.  That proves they know both.  I have some very good friends that are from Mexico, they have a Mexican Restraunt here in town.  They usually speak English to me, as a matter of fact they know I speak some Spanish and still speak to me in English.  Most of them will only speak to in Spanish if I speak it to them first.  Then they will answer me in Spanish.  I am not saying anything aganst anyone.  Just know it is hard for them to have the time it takes to learn a new life style.  When I go to the restraunt I try to speak Spanish to them, but when I don't know how to say something I feel more confortable sying it in my language.  Some times it is just a habit to speak my first language.   Some countries do teach English in school as a weighted(required) course.


----------

