# Dreistigkeit siegt!



## Maranello_rosso

Hello everyone!

Could you please tell *what is the most appropriate translation for "Dreistigkeit siegt*"?
My ways of translations are:

1. Aim for the impossible
2. Audacity is for win
3. Cheek brings success
4. Nothing venture, nothing win

The phrase is out from the movie "WHOAMI"

Erstens: Begrenze deine Aktionen
nicht auf die virtuelle Welt.

Zweitens: *Dreistigkeit siegt.*

- Und drittens: Kein System ist sicher.
- Kein System ist sicher.

Vielen Dank im Voraus


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## Ief

Literally I would translate

_audacity prevails_

#1, 3, 4 are out of scope here.


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## Demiurg

A variant  is "Frechheit siegt!". I found the translation "Impudence wins!".


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## Altair76

I agree with "audacity prevails."


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## Kajjo

No, this leads in the wrong direction!

"Audacity wins" sounds positive along properties like bravery, boldness, courage... This is definitely NOT meant by the German phrase "Dreistigkeit siegt". Not at all!

The German phrase focuses on the negative perspective, i.e. on impudence, insolence, impertinence, brazen/brash/arrant behaviour. _Dreistigkeit _is negative and violates social expectations. You never appreciate "dreist"!



Demiurg said:


> I found the translation "Impudence wins!"


I guess this might fit. I don't know the English proverb, though.


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## Altair76

Kajjo said:


> "Audacity wins" sounds positive along properties like bravery, boldness, courage



It can have that connotation, but it very often has connotations of rudeness, excessive boldness, etc. Just like Dreistigkeit. Here's the online definition:

Definition of audacity | Dictionary.com

As you can see, the second meaning is "shameless boldness." That's actually how I hear it used most often here in the US, e.g.

"He had the audacity to try to kiss me one hour into our first date."

I think Dreistigkeit would be used in that situation as well.


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## Maranello_rosso

Kajjo said:


> No, this leads in the wrong direction!
> 
> "Audacity wins" sounds positive along properties like bravery, boldness, courage... This is definitely NOT meant by the German phrase "Dreistigkeit siegt". Not at all!
> 
> The German phrase focuses on the negative perspective, i.e. on impudence, insolence, impertinence, brazen/brash/arrant behaviour. _Dreistigkeit _is negative and violates social expectations. You never appreciate "dreist"!
> 
> 
> I guess this might fit. I don't know the English proverb, though.


Great asnwer! Thank you!


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## Maranello_rosso

Altair76 said:


> It can have that connotation, but it very often has connotations of rudeness, excessive boldness, etc. Just like Dreistigkeit. Here's the online definition:
> 
> Definition of audacity | Dictionary.com
> 
> As you can see, the second meaning is "shameless boldness." That's actually how I hear it used most often here in the US, e.g.
> 
> "He had the audacity to try to kiss me one hour into our first date."
> 
> I think Dreistigkeit would be used in that situation as well.


Thank youuuuuuu!


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## elroy

I suggest 

Sassiness is the way to go!
Sassiness will get you places!
Be sassy and you’ll get far!


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## Altair76

Sassiness is strongly associated with females, particularly teenage girls who are kind of superficial and spoiled.

I've heard Dreistigkeit used more with males, though I'm not a German native so can't say for sure.


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## Maranello_rosso

elroy said:


> I suggest
> 
> Sassiness is the way to go!
> Sassiness will get you places!
> Be sassy and you’ll get far!


Just awesome!! Thank you!


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## elroy

Altair76 said:


> Sassiness is strongly associated with females, particularly teenage girls who are kind of superficial and spoiled.


 I don’t share that view.  There are plenty of other demographic groups who are sassy.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> Sassiness is the way to go!
> Sassiness will get you places!
> Be sassy and you’ll get far!


In German "frech" is ambiguous and can be sassy, bold, cheeky. On the other hand it can be impertinent, insolent, insulting. However, "dreist" ist always the negative aspect, more like impudent, brazen, brash, insolent.

So, yes, your suggestions might to "Frechheit siegt" and they have a considerable overlap with "Dreistheit siegt". However, "dreist" is always negative, and that quite a lot so.

Anyway, I like your suggestions.


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## Altair76

elroy said:


> I don’t share that view. There are plenty of other demographic groups who are sassy.


Do a google image search of "sassy." You will see nothing but young girls who look spoiled and pretty pleased with themselves.


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## Ief

Altair76 said:


> Do a google image search of "sassy." You will see nothing but young girls who look spoiled and pretty pleased with themselves.


I did!
I saw it!

sassy - Google Search


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## Kajjo

Altair76 said:


> Do a google image search of "sassy." You will see nothing but young girls who look spoiled and pretty pleased with themselves.


Yes, I learned "sassy" to be associated with girls as well. Not spoiled, but perky, saucy, using their female advantages. I would never use it with men.


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## Jektor

Maranello_rosso said:


> Could you please tell what is the most appropriate translation for "Dreistigkeit siegt"?
> My ways of translations are:
> 
> 1. Aim for the impossible
> 2. Audacity is for win wins through.
> 3. Cheek brings success
> 4. Nothing venture*d*, nothing win gained.
> .





Demiurg said:


> A variant  is "Frechheit siegt!". I found the translation "Impudence wins!".
> .


Reading through the answers. I think "impudence" might be an appropriate translation.
Also perhaps:
"pushiness" or "sharp elbows"
More possible alternatives here according to the context:
thesaurus.com - impudence
.


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## manfy

I'm still undecided what word works best, but I think you should know the context to decide.
"Who am I" is a German hacker movie and the OP is part of the motto of the hacker or hacker group MRX:


> *MRX Motto:*
> Erstens: Begrenze deine Aktionen nicht auf die virtuelle Welt.
> Zweitens: *Dreistigkeit siegt.*
> Drittens: Kein System ist sicher.



From that perspective, it would be "dreist" for a hacker to try to hack the Pentagon from a nearby location, considering that the Pentagon would have a top notch intrusion prevention and tracking system and within the US they might actually have a task force that could quickly find and detain the actual intruder.
Doing the same thing from China would not be quite as "dreist" because the US won't have direct access to the network, let alone access to the physical location of the hacker.


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## Maranello_rosso

manfy said:


> I'm still undecided what word works best, but I think you should know the context to decide.
> "Who am I" is a German hacker movie and the OP is part of the motto of the hacker or hacker group MRX:
> 
> 
> From that perspective, it would be "dreist" for a hacker to try to hack the Pentagon from a nearby location, considering that the Pentagon would have a top notch intrusion prevention and tracking system and within the US they might actually have a task force that could quickly find and detain the actual intruder.
> Doing the same thing from China would not be quite as "dreist" because the US won't have direct access to the network, let alone access to the physical location of the hacker.


How about : bold as brass lifestyle?


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## Ief

Maranello_rosso said:


> How about : bold as brass lifestyle?



No, not bold as brass. It focusses to much on positive aspects of courage like the german word _tollkühn_, _wagemutig. _But it goes into the right direction. If you don't like the more neutral _audacity prevails_, I would suggest something like _unscrupulousness wins, _because "Dreistigkeit siegt" just means something like having no problem to be rude to others to achieve a certain aim (that might be positive or negative). If it's clear that the person acts only selfish or for a negative purpose for sure (which isn't the case here at all), than it also can be _inconsideration_, _recklessness _or even_ impudence._


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## Kajjo

Jektor said:


> I think "impudence" might be an appropriate translation.


I agree, the best choice so far.


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## Altair76

There are some existing English sayings that deal with this:

1. "No guts, no glory" - it's pretty informal, but that may work in this context.
2. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." - very common, but it usually doesn't signify any great amount of courage, rather mild boldness.
3. "Who Dares Wins" - the motto of the British SAS, which is famous enough that it's entered the popular imagination.

All of these emphasize the positive aspects of courage, though- I'm not aware of a saying that praises kind of a rude boldness.


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## elroy

"impudence" doesn't work for me at all.  "impudence" is a word that educated people know but that is rarely actually used, _erst recht nicht_ in a slogan, AND _schon gar nicht_ in the context given to us by Manfy, where for me it doesn't work semantically at all: I would never describe the act of hacking the Pentagon as "impudent"!   


Kajjo said:


> Yes, I learned "sassy" to be associated with girls as well. Not spoiled, but perky, saucy, using their female advantages. I would never use it with men.


 There are sassy men, and it's used that way.  Either way, though, "sassy" doesn't fit in this context.

(Cross-posted)


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> in the context given to us by Manfy


Why is Manfy's context suddenly decisive? I still reply to the title question.

"Dreistigkeit siegt" oder "dreistes Verhalten" are what we talk about.



elroy said:


> I would never describe the act of hacking the Pentagon as "impudent"!


I wouldn't describe it as "dreist" either. Maybe _frech, tollkühn, wagemütig_...


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## elroy

Manfy's context is the OP's context.

In any case, though, as I said: 


elroy said:


> "impudence" is a word that educated people know but that is rarely actually used, _erst recht nicht_ in a slogan


 ...at least in American English.


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## Ief

Kajjo said:


> I agree, the best choice so far.


I disagree and overall since a native speaker refused it.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> In any case, though, as I said:


Is "audacity" more common compared to impudence?

What do you believe to be the best translation so far?

"Audacity" is still much more positive for me, like Tollkühnheit. Dreistigkeit is so much more negatively connotated. Maybe there is no perfect translation...


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## Kajjo

Ief said:


> since a native speaker refused it


So what?! I don't get your point. Who refused "impudence"?


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## Ief

elroy. You answered him.

By the way

Audacity *stems (*oh yes it *stems) *from latin word "audax", which doesn't mean tollkühn at all in classical sense, but more _frech _like "_frech wie Oskar_".

So what?!


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## Altair76

Impudence is fine here- it's not used as much as "audacity" but, unlike audacity, it doesn't have two meanings, one being a positive form of courage.


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## Ief

So...? It's not the best recommendation. As I mentioned above it depends on context wether _Dreistigkeit siegt!_ is either positive or negatively connotated.


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## elroy

Altair76 said:


> Impudence is fine here


 “Fine” in what sense? 

Do you disagree with either of my two points?

1.) This word is rarely used.
2.) It doesn’t fit the context.

For me, “impudent” (when it’s used) is (mostly/only) used in reference to children who are “frech.”

@Kajjo, there is no easy solution.  This is a gap in English that I’ve been aware of for a while.  I have yet to identify a candidate equivalent that is not either a) rare in everyday speech or b) semantically off.


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> The German phrase focuses on the negative perspective, i.e. on impudence, insolence, impertinence, brazen/brash/arrant behaviour.



dreist = ziemlich unverschämt

What about "insolence"?


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> This is a gap in English that I’ve been aware of for a while.


OK, I get you. Then we at least agree on the semantic depth and just miss a proper word.

But it is really important not to give it a positive touch, if the core meaning is negative.


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## Altair76

elroy said:


> “Fine” in what sense?
> Do you disagree with either of my two points?
> 1.) This word is rarely used.
> 2.) It doesn’t fit the context.
> For me, “impudent” (when it’s used) is (mostly/only) used in reference to children who are “frech.”


The definition of impudent is:  marked by contemptuous or cocky boldness or disregard of others.
Definition of IMPUDENT
That covers a lot of the same ground as "dreistigkeit":
Dreistigkeit - Englisch-Übersetzung – Linguee Wörterbuch
That Merriam-Webster link gives four examples, and none of them involve children. I've never thought of it as being used only for children, though of course it can be.

As far as being used a lot, I wouldn't expect to hear it out of the mouth of an uneducated person. But if a person is reasonably intelligent, it's not one of those words that sounds like you're trying to show off by using an obscure word.

To use the example, I gave:

"He had the ____ to try to kiss me one hour into our first date."

The word choices that come to mind for me, from less to more "educated" are:

nerve, gall, audacity, impudence.

I'd personally probably use audacity, which is the main translation for "dreistigkeit" in the linguee link. But I think the others work as well. In fact, "impudence" is one of the linguee options.


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## Kajjo

Altair76 said:


> I'd personally probably use audacity, which is the main translation for "dreistigkeit" in the linguee link. But I think the others work as well. In fact, "impudence" is one of the linguee options.


I agree. Audacity fits well if we think of such deeds as bold and requiring courage. This might fit to the kiss if the woman eventually somehow appreciates the balls to do so, but in my opinion it doesn't really fit if she primarily was annoyed. Only in the latter case we would use "dreist".

If I follow Elroy and accept that there is no proper translation of "dreist", then "audacity" and "impudence" are my two best choices. The former because it seems to be common, the latter because it better convey the negative connotation.


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## Altair76

Kajjo said:


> Audacity fits well if we think of such deeds as bold and requiring courage. This might fit to the kiss if the woman eventually somehow appreciates the balls to do so, but in my opinion it doesn't really fit if she primarily was annoyed.



But it does- as I said above, in current English the primary use of audacity is to express annoyance at someone's rude boldness, not to express admiration for courage. Here is a sample sentence given in an English online dictionary.

"He _had the audacity_ to suggest that it was all my fault. "

Definition of AUDACITY

Clearly, that's expressing annoyance, and that's normally how it's used in current English.

It's actually pretty rare these days to hear audacity used as praise for courage since you frankly don't see a lot of positive audacity/courage in modern life, but you do see a lot of the rude/cocky variety.


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## Kajjo

Altair76 said:


> Clearly, that's expressing annoyance, and that's normally how it's used in current English.


Yeah, maybe the modern usage is quite close to "dreist" after all. The references to older usage (like Merriam-Webster's example with the knights) just don't fit. Maybe my feeling about the word is too old-fashioned and nowadays it is very close to "dreist".



Altair76 said:


> "He _had the audacity_ to suggest that it was all my fault. "


I accept this to mean "Er hatte die Dreistigkeit, ...".


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## Altair76

Kajjo said:


> Yeah, maybe the modern usage is quite close to "dreist" after all. The references to older usage (like Merriam-Webster's example with the knights) just don't fit. Maybe my feeling about the word is too old-fashioned and nowadays it is very close to "dreist".


Yeah, this is kind of a depressing example of the word not changing, but the world changing in such a way that the good meaning of the word is used a lot less and the bad meaning a lot more.


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## Kajjo

Altair76 said:


> this is kind of a depressing example of the word not changing


Yes, I see your perspective.

On the other hand, there just ARE some concepts where some languages are not as exactly in definition as others. 

For example, I never got my head wrapped around the concept of how to clearly indicate _Tapferkeit vs Mut _in English_. _I've really given up. In German these are two clearly distinct concepts while in English all translations (boldness, bravery, courage, valour) might mean both, depending on situation and context. Frustrating. I see that both properties go hand in hand quite often, but they are clearly distinct properties nonetheless, even classical virtues. -- Mut überwindet Angst und geht Risiken ein, Tapferkeit erträgt Schmerz oder Nachteile. Richtig: "Das Kind muss heute beim Zahnarzt tapfer sein." Aber "Das Kind muss beim Zahnarzt mutig sein" ist inhaltlich Quatsch und würde hier gar nicht passen. Richtig: "Es erfordert Mut, das erste Mal Fallschirm zu springen / eine unbekannte Frau anzusprechen."

Our current topic is surprisingly close to this issue. Audacity, too, touches boldness and similar terms. So maybe these concepts are just more mixed up in English than in German. 

There are other concepts that are less clearly distinguished in one language than in others. We have to accept this sometimes.


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