# language evolution g to h, slavic especially



## merquiades

Hi.  There is a language process I've been aware of for a while in reference in Spain, called gheada, where hard g is transformed into an h.  Gheada is widespread in Galicia.  Words such as gato, Galicia, lago etc. become hato, Halicia, laho in the spoken language.

In Dutch as well, compared to English and German at least, hard g has disappeared and is now pronouced something akin to guttural h, almost /x/. Words are still written with g though.

Recently I realized the Czech language did not have a hard g either.  Numerous words which would be hard g in Russian such as grad, gora are hora, hrad in Czech.  My questions are:  is there a widespread process in Slavic languages (perhaps going beyond language groups obviously) changing hard g to h?  Does it occur in many other languages as well? Since I can already think of 3 cases, this would lead me to believe so.  It must be more than a coincidence. Likewise, does anyone here who is linguistically savvy know if there a plausible reason why this process happens?

Thanks for your imput.


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## Outsider

Ukrainian seems to be another example.

I would say this sound change falls under the category of lenition.


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## Dan2

merquiades said:


> Hi.  There is a language process I've been aware of for a while in reference in Spain, called gheada, where hard g is transformed into an h.  Gheada is widespread in Galicia.  Words such as gato, Galicia, lago etc. become hato, Halicia, laho in the spoken language.


This might be considered a completion of the process that already accounts for the -like sound of Spanish "g" in all dialects before [e] and _, as in "gente" and "gitano"._


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## Outsider

I don't think so, because the _gheada_ occurs before non-frontal vowels like [a]. Indeed, one of the distinctive features of Galician is the non-velarization of the _j/g_.


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## Dan2

Merquiades, how are "gente" and "gitano" pronounced in the specific dialect you're referring to?

Edit: Looking back to the original post, I see a possible source of confusion.  "in Spain" is mentioned, but not the Galician language (galego/gallego).  I assumed the discussion was about a dialect, spoken in Spain, of what is considered Spanish.


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## merquiades

"Gheada" in Galicia, I'm not sure I'd link it to Spanish or Galician, both or neither.  I know it's common in certain Galician dialects but it's present in their Spanish, whether or not they speak Galician. It's also spread elsewhere.  My old roommate in Madrid from Vigo would usually say Viho, and I would always hear clearly the hato (gato) since we had a cat.  He claimed not to speak Galician. I heard it from other people from the area when speaking Spanish too. I don't think people across the Minho have it though, am I right Outsider?  That would like it to Spain only.
Change from /g/ to /x/ before /e/ and /i/ is quite old in Spanish. It developed from /ʃ/ (sh) in old Spanish which before that was /ʒ/ (zh) like in French, but in classical Latin was indeed /g/. Maybe that is a possible route of evolution to explore...  I don't think the modern gheada is linked to that though.  If it were a matter of finishing off the process as Dan suggests, wouldn't it have had to occur much earlier (in parallel the original changes) and be more universal?




> The Ukrainian language, in common with Czech, Slovak, Upper Sorbian, Belarusian and southern Russian dialects has changed the Common Slavic "g" into an "h" sound (for example, noga > noha - leg).



Thanks for the links Outsider. It appears the change from /g/ to /h/ is quite common in Slavic languages.  I also saw it's present in the Silesian dialect of Polish.

Is it a kind of lenition?  The article talks about a lot of types which are not necessarily present in every language.  It also seems that it's /k/ which should become /h/ in this case.  To ponder...

More ideas, info and languages to add to the list are welcome.  
Thanks again


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## merquiades

Dan2 said:


> Merquiades, how are "gente" and "gitano" pronounced in the specific dialect you're referring to?
> 
> Edit: Looking back to the original post, I see a possible source of confusion.  "in Spain" is mentioned, but not the Galician language (galego/gallego).  I assumed the discussion was about a dialect, spoken in Spain, of what is considered Spanish.



Dan, gitano and gente are pronounced /x/ everywhere in Spain when people speak Spanish.  gitano and gente are pronounced /ʃ/ by Galicians when they speak gallego.  Gheada (hard g to h)... lago, saga, gustavo is found in northwestern Spain both in Spanish and Galician.  You're right.  I used "in Spain" because I didn't want to be language specific, just speak of the linguistic trend and figure out reasons for it.  So I wanted to open for comments on any accent, language or dialect.


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## Dan2

OK, thanks.  Let me restate my point more clearly.  You mentioned three cases of [g] changing into an -like sound:
- in Galicia
- in Dutch
- in some of the Slavic languages
I say "-like" because I don't believe the Dutch "g" is typically a true .  But I agree with you that it's relevant to mention Dutch in this context.

I am suggesting a fourth example: if you go back far enough in the history of the Romance languages, I believe the word corresponding to today's "gente" was pronounced with [g].  Today, in Spanish (not Portuguese or Italian) it is pronounced in many dialects with an "-like sound", an actual  in some cases, another _back, voiceless, fricative_ in others.  Just another piece of evidence in support of your general observation.

Perhaps also relevant: the famous Tuscan [k]=> sound change.


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## Dan2

merquiades said:


> Change from /g/ to /x/ before /e/ and /i/ is quite old in Spanish. It developed from /ʃ/ (sh) in old Spanish which before that was /ʒ/ (zh) like in French, but in classical Latin was indeed /g/. Maybe that is a possible route of evolution to explore...  I don't think the modern gheada is linked to that though.  If it were a matter of finishing off the process as Dan suggests, wouldn't it have had to occur much earlier (in parallel the original changes) and be more universal?


I'd like to comment on this also.

It's often the case that a sound change works its way slowly across time and phonetic environment.  There are many examples of this.

But right, we don't really know if the two processes under discussion are related.  But you can be darn sure that if the process you described becomes universal in Spanish, people in the future will say "over a period of many centuries, Latin [g] has become a back, voiceless, fricative in Spanish, first only before front vowels...".


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## berndf

Dan2 said:


> I say "-like" because I don't believe the Dutch "g" is typically a true .  But I agree with you that it's relevant to mention Dutch in this context.


This is a different process. (Northern) Dutch <g>=/x/ is the result of devoicing of /ɣ/. Contrary to English and German, Dutch always retained the original Germanic pronunciation <g>=/ɣ/ and never developed the pronunciation /g/.


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## Dan2

berndf said:


> (Northern) Dutch <g>=/x/ is the result of devoicing of /ɣ/. Contrary to English and German, Dutch always retained the original Germanic pronunciation <g>=/ɣ/ and never developed the pronunciation /g/.


You know much more about this than I do, so the following is a question, not a challenge.  How is it that for a word like "good", we see [g] in English, German, Scandinavian, and (I think) Icelandic, i.e. all the major Germanic languages, _except_ Dutch?


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## francisgranada

In the Czech and Slovak, this process is not active anymore. I.e. for the original Slavic *g* we have always *h*, but in the later loanwords the consonant _*g*_ is maintained and pronouced "normally" as _*g*_ (e.g. in Slovak _hora_, _hlina_, _hovoriť_ , _hlava_ ... but _gombík_, _gazda_, _guma_, _generál, program _...). 

In the Ukranian (and, as far as I know, also in some Russian dialects) the *g*, represented by the letter _*Г г,*_ is always pronounced *h* (including recent loanwords).


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## berndf

Dan2 said:


> You know much more about this than I do, so the following is a question, not a challenge.  How is it that for a word like "good", we see [g] in English, German, Scandinavian, and (I think) Icelandic, i.e. all the major Germanic languages, _except_ Dutch?


My knowledge of North Germanic does not run very deep, so I won't comment on it. In West Germanic, <g> had the allophonic variants [ʝ] and [ɣ]. In Dutch some dialects retained  [ʝ], some [ɣ] and some devoiced [ɣ] to [x].

In German the situation is much less clear than you might think, if you take into accounts dialects. Exclusive plosive pronunciation of <g> is only found in Upper-German. Most Middle and Northern dialect feature plosive <g> word-initially but not in other positions. Some dialects are lacking /g/ completely: _Es ist *g*ut etwas *g*anz ruhi*g* zu sa*g*en - Dat is *j*ut wat *j*anz rui*ch* zu sa*ɣ*n_. In Standard German the pronunciation of -ig like -ich can be explained by final obstruent devoicing of <g>=[ʝ].

In Old English only initial <g> was plosive. A reflex of this non-plosive <g> is e.g. _dæg>day_. A reflex of earlier non-plosive initial <g> is e.g. _geolu>yellow_.


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## merquiades

francisgranada said:


> In the Czech and Slovak, this process is not active anymore. I.e. for the original Slavic *g* we have always *h*, but in the later loanwords the consonant _*g*_ is maintained and pronouced "normally" as _*g*_ (e.g. in Slovak _hora_, _hlina_, _hovoriť_ , _hlava_ ... but _gombík_, _gazda_, _guma_, _generál, program _...).
> 
> In the Ukranian (and, as far as I know, also in some Russian dialects) the *g*, represented by the letter _*Г г,*_ is always pronounced *h* (including recent loanwords).



Thanks for the comment.  I think it's normal for processes in a language to occur at a certain moment in time pretty generally but afterwards when new words arrive it is no longer active because the moment has passed. H from Latin was generally eliminated in Romance Languages but now many have it in some form or another.
I took a look at Afrikaans and unsurprisingly it has the /x/ for the written letter /g/ just like its parent Dutch, but hard /g/ does exist as gh in many loan words from English and African languages.  An example I found was gholf.
I hadn't considered that the process could have been reversed, as it seems to be the case in some Germanic languages.  I need to reflect on that, also the role of the Y /j/.  G is actually Y /j/ before frontal vowels in Swedish and Greek.  Also the origin of J in Romance Languages was a y-like sound in origin /j/ to /ʒ/ to /ʃ/ in old Spanish at which time it was confused with gi/ge, after which they both became /x/...


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## merquiades

The evolution of soft G (ge, gi, gy) appears to be something like this in the Romance Languages

/g/ > /g'/ > /gj/ > /dj/ >/dʒ/ > /ʒ/ > /ʃ/ > /x/

Palatisation of G, introduction of a Y-sound, integration of the two sounds, devoicing and move to an H-like sound.

Italian... remained at /dʒ/
French, Portuguese, Catalan... at /ʒ/
Galician... at /ʃ/
Spanish at /x/

G (e,i) and J are confused in most starting at /dʒ/.  Italian eliminated J mostly and writes GI.


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## Joannes

In West-Flemish dialects <g> is pronounced as /h/.

But it is one where there is more friction than Standard Dutch . (It would be my pronunciation of Arabic ح but that might not work the other way around. ) You can notice this when a West-Flemish person intends to speak Standard Dutch and does pronounce the <h> whereas in the dialect it is never pronounced.


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## Angelo di fuoco

merquiades said:


> Dan, gitano and gente are pronounced /x/ everywhere in Spain when people speak Spanish.  gitano and gente are pronounced /ʃ/ by Galicians when they speak gallego.  Gheada (hard g to h)... lago, saga, gustavo is found in northwestern Spain both in Spanish and Galician.  You're right.  I used "in Spain" because I didn't want to be language specific, just speak of the linguistic trend and figure out reasons for it.  So I wanted to open for comments on any accent, language or dialect.



In Madrid, you have /ɣ/ also in words like alegría.


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## Ben Jamin

In Polish, Russian, and truly in many other Slavic languages g before e and y/i changed to ʒ (ż/ж), e.g.: mogę >  możesz,   могу > можешъ.


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## francisgranada

Ben Jamin said:


> In Polish, Russian, and truly in many other Slavic languages g before e and y/i changed to ʒ (ż/ж), e.g.: mogę > możesz, могу > можешъ.


 
Yes, and see also an other kind of changement: e.g.  Czech _Praha_ - _v_ _Pra*z*e_, Polish _Praga_ - _w Pra*dz*e_, but Slovak v _Pra*h*e_, Russian _в Пpa*г*e._


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## Forero

merquiades said:


> The evolution of soft G (ge, gi, gy) appears to be something like this in the Romance Languages
> 
> /g/ > /g'/ > /gj/ > /dj/ >/dʒ/ > /ʒ/ > /ʃ/ > /x/
> 
> Palatisation of G, introduction of a Y-sound, integration of the two sounds, devoicing and move to an H-like sound.
> 
> Italian... remained at /dʒ/
> French, Portuguese, Catalan... at /ʒ/
> Galician... at /ʃ/
> Spanish at /x/
> 
> G (e,i) and J are confused in most starting at /dʒ/. Italian eliminated J mostly and writes GI.


I'll add only that in American Spanish (at least in Mexico), /ʃ/ did not progress to /x/ but to /ħ/ (like Arabic ح).


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## koniecswiata

(g) seems to be a pretty unstable consonant across languages (possibly the whole world--just a matter of research).  By turning the stop consonant (g) into a continuous consonant it is pretty "normal" that it would turn into an (h) or h-like sound.  I can second that in northern German dialects the (g) in word final position is pronounced like the sound for German "ch".  Tag = "tach"
The (g) of Modern Greek is also sometimes "h-like" sometimes like a glide ("y-like).


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## vianie

francisgranada said:


> Yes, and see also an other kind of changement: e.g.  Czech _Praha_ - _v_ _Pra*z*e_, Polish _Praga_ - _w Pra*dz*e_, but Slovak v _Pra*h*e_, Russian _в Пpa*г*e._



Here is the explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_second_palatalization#Interpretation .


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## merquiades

Forero said:


> I'll add only that in American Spanish (at least in Mexico), /ʃ/ did not progress to /x/ but to /ħ/ (like Arabic ح).



Thanks for reminding me, Forero.  I thought /ʃ/ did go to /x/ but then was weakened to /h/.  You can sporadically find that in Spain too.  In some American dialects I think /x/ is retained like in the Southern Cone area.
Anyway, that would end the /g/ to /h/ process.  I wonder if that's similar to what is occurring in Slavic languages.

[





> *Angelo di Fuoco*. In Madrid, you have /ɣ/ also in words like alegría.



Yes, intervocalic hard /g/ is weakened between vowel sounds almost everywhere now.  I wonder if this is a precursor to the gheada.



> *Johannes*. In West-Flemish dialects <g> is pronounced as /h/.


In the Dutch language there is an aspirated /h/ like in "hondert, het" right?  In the Flemish areas where /g/ has become /h/ does that cause confusion?  Or are there no minimal pairs?



> *Koniecswiata*.(g) seems to be a pretty unstable consonant across languages (possibly the whole world--just a matter of research). By turning the stop consonant (g) into a continuous consonant it is pretty "normal" that it would turn into an (h) or h-like sound. I can second that in northern German dialects the (g) in word final position is pronounced like the sound for German "ch". Tag = "tach"
> The (g) of Modern Greek is also sometimes "h-like" sometimes like a glide ("y-like).



Interesting observation.  It reminds me that in Spain people pronounce word final hard /g/ as h-like too.  It doesn't exist normally in Spanish.  So they will say "Greg", "grog" as /grex/, /grox/.  I guess you've proven there is a link between the two.


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## Joannes

merquiades said:


> In the Dutch language there is an aspirated /h/ like in "hondert, het" right? In the Flemish areas where /g/ has become /h/ does that cause confusion? Or are there no minimal pairs?


The /h/ is not pronounced in most of Flanders' dialects. So it only causes confusion when West-Flemish speak Standard Dutch, e.g. *hout* 'wood' vs. *goud* 'gold' (where /d/ is pronounced [t] due to _auslautverhärtung_). In the dialect there is no confusion, in this particular case also because of the vowel: *hout* is pronounced [ut] and *goud* is pronounced [haut].


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## Istriano

merquiades said:


> Yes, intervocalic hard /g/ is weakened between vowel sounds almost everywhere now.  I wonder if this is a precursor to the gheada.
> .


Luciano Canepari recommends  /ɣ/ as a starting point for the perfect pronunciation of Parisian R.


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## Ben Jamin

Istriano said:


> Luciano Canepari recommends /ɣ/ as a starting point for the perfect pronunciation of Parisian R.


 When I learned French 40 years ago we were taught to pronounce 'R _dorsal_', not guttural.


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## merquiades

Istriano said:


> Luciano Canepari recommends  /ɣ/ as a starting point for the perfect pronunciation of Parisian R.



I've been pronouncing saga in Spanish and Sarah in French.  The first is weak, light, in the throat, like a hard g wanna be that somehow doesn't make it.  The second is further up, where the back of the mouth and throat meet (don't know if there's a name for that) and is accompanied by some kind of an explosion. I guess they are closer than other sounds would be.  In some popular literature some Spanish writers transcribe French accents with g/gu. I remember seeing Moguilés for Morilés. A better starting point might be to ask people to pronounce spaghetti or Baghdad forcing them say both the g and the h.

The evolution of French R is also different. It was rolled in the front of the mouth a few centuries ago, then rolled simultaneously in the front and in the back, the rolling in the front stopped, the tongue went flat and that left vibrations in the back which slowly calmed down to become a fricative. Some older people from some areas still have an R sometimes that sounds more rolled in the back. I think a similar process is currently happening in Portuguese. I wouldn't connect this R to a hard G. Incidentally, the hard G (a, o, u) is certainly not becoming softer in French

People who use gheada (hato for gato) have a sound that is voiceless/devoiced. French r (rateau) is voiced and strong.


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## Istriano

> On the other hand, we can also find a voiced velar semi-constrictive (with a voiceless velar constrictive, in a devoicing context): ['gɣɒ̃, 'tɣɛ].


L. Canepari (2005) A Handbook of Pronunciation – Lincom Europa, p.159  


In Tamil, Sanskrit _pustak _(''book'') gave _pustaham_: _pustak--->pustakam--->pustagam--->pustaxam--->pustaham _(['pustɐhɐ̃] in colloquial Chennai Tamil).


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