# Pronunciation of older forms of a language



## modus.irrealis

I was wondering about how different cultures pronounce works written in older forms of their language, specifically whether they pronounce them similarly to the language's modern pronunciation instead of the reconstructed pronunciation of the time the work was written. The only examples I know of is that Greeks seem to read ancient works in terms of the modern pronunciation and I know that the modern Hebrew pronunciation is very popular for reading the Tanakh. For English, we read Shakespeare as if he were alive today but Old English is pronounced according to what we think it's real pronunciation is.

This last example made me think that it's a matter of spelling, i.e. those languages where historical spellings have been preserved are more likely to use the modern pronunciation but if the spelling has changed, some kind of link will have been lost, and people will use the historical pronunciation. But I don't know how French speakers pronounce Old French, or how Russians and others pronounce Church Slavonic, etc., so I don't know how true my guess is.


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## jester.

Maybe the correct pronunciation can't be reconstructed properly in all cases. Or people just don't want to learn the old pronunciation rules...


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## Setwale_Charm

I guess, it is the same with Latin. No records have survived, unfortunately. And the adopted way of pronouncing Latin letters differs from country to country! I noticed in a multilingual parish that people from different countries and linguistic backgrounds pronounce Latin words differently.


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## modus.irrealis

j3st3r said:


> Maybe the correct pronunciation can't be reconstructed properly in all cases. Or people just don't want to learn the old pronunciation rules...



I think your second suggestion makes a lot of sense, and maybe explains what I was thinking about spelling, since if the language is spelt the same way it's much easier to read everything the same no matter when it was written. You're also right about problems with reconstructing the older pronunciation, although even in cases where we know things as well as can be expected, there seems to be resistance to changing the pronunciation.



Setwale_Charm said:


> I guess, it is the same with Latin. No records have survived, unfortunately.



But scholars have a very good idea of what it sounded like, but records would be really nice, wouldn't they?



> And the adopted way of pronouncing Latin letters differs from country to country! I noticed in a multilingual parish that people from different countries and linguistic backgrounds pronounce Latin words differently.


And I forgot about Latin, which is complicated, especially if you include the way scientists pronounce the names of species for example. There does seem to be a movement though in universities to adopt the reconstructed classical pronunciation (although that's also somewhat true of Classical Greek). I was also under the impression that the Catholic Church had declared a single (Italianate) pronunciation as the official pronunciation that should be used in the Church. Is this correct?


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## Setwale_Charm

modus.irrealis said:


> And I forgot about Latin, which is complicated, especially if you include the way scientists pronounce the names of species for example. There does seem to be a movement though in universities to adopt the reconstructed classical pronunciation (although that's also somewhat true of Classical Greek). I was also under the impression that the Catholic Church had declared a single (Italianate) pronunciation as the official pronunciation that should be used in the Church. Is this correct?


 
 I do not know exactly what the Catholic Church has declared and as far as I can judge, its flock could not care less about it. They are still saying each what he is used to due to his cultural background. I am not a professional linguist or historian but I wonder how people generally got an idea of restoring the pronunciation of the dead languages, upon what signs does one base one`s assumption that this or that was pronounced this way? It is especially fathomless in the case of Ancient Egypt for example.


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## Setwale_Charm

modus.irrealis said:


> But scholars have a very good idea of what it sounded like, but records would be really nice, wouldn't they?


 That is almost like that joke where a boy asks his mother whether she would have some photos of his ancestors that could give him an idea what apes looked like at those times.


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## swyves

There's some interesting information on how they reconstruct a dead language here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancien...arguments_and_evidence_used_in_reconstruction

Proper detective work!


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## englishman

modus.irrealis said:


> The only examples I know of is that Greeks seem to read ancient works in terms of the modern pronunciation



I believe that many Greeks claim that ancient Greek_ was _pronounced identically to modern Greek.



> But I don't know how French speakers pronounce Old French, or how Russians and others pronounce Church Slavonic, etc., so I don't know how true my guess is.


I suspect that French speakers speak older forms of French just like modern French, unless they've learnt the older pronunciations for some reason, just as most English schoolchildren don't attempt to pronounce Shakespeare with an Elizabethan pronunciation.


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## swyves

englishman said:


> I believe that many Greeks claim that ancient Greek_ was _pronounced identically to modern Greek.


 
They may claim it but, see above, there's plenty of very solid evidence (beyond the mere logic that no language remains unchanged for anything like 2500 years) that it's not true.


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## Lykurg

If I recall correctly, in one of Aristophanes' Comedies sheep say "βη" on stage. Pronounced as in Modern Greek, it would sound like "vee"


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## modus.irrealis

Setwale_Charm said:


> I am not a professional linguist or historian but I wonder how people generally got an idea of restoring the pronunciation of the dead languages, upon what signs does one base one`s assumption that this or that was pronounced this way? It is especially fathomless in the case of Ancient Egypt for example.



swyves gave a really good (Wikipedia!) article about Ancient Greek, but even Ancient Egyptian is not impossible to investigate. Scholars have a good idea what Coptic sounded like so that gives you somewhere to start in going further back in time, and they look at things like how Egyptian words were written in Phoenician and other inscriptions. If I remember what I've read, there are still a number of serious issues (like what the vowels were) that will probably never be resolved.



englishman said:


> I believe that many Greeks claim that ancient Greek_ was _pronounced identically to modern Greek.



I've seen that claim too but I don't know how many is many. But I wonder if this claim would be made if Greek were to undergo a complete spelling reform.


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## ireney

Englishman said:


> I believe that many Greeks claim that ancient Greek_ was _pronounced identically to modern Greek.
> 
> 
> I suspect that French speakers speak older forms of French just like modern French, unless they've learnt the older pronunciations for some reason, just as most English schoolchildren don't attempt to pronounce Shakespeare with an Elizabethan pronunciation.





Unless you are talking about the local bozos who also believe that we came from Aliens etc and who are in fact (and thankfully) very few no, there aren't many Greeks who make this stupid claim.

What modern Greeks claim is that there's no reason for them to learn to pronounce ancient Greek in an approximation of the various ways it was pronounced throughout the ages (different for Homer, different for Lyric poetry, different for Ionian, Dorian, Aeolian, Achaean etc, different for classical Athenian, different for Koine etc). 

I'm afraid the aforementioned bozos are fanatics which means they make a lot of noise.

This is sad; just as sad as the fact that (need evil emoticon here) many non-Greeks feel a distinct pleasure in making fun of modern Greek without really knowing anything about it (or modern Greeks for that matter). At least I have yet to hear a Greek say that since we are looked down upon for using modern pronunciation, they same should be true for non-Greeks who pronounce older forms of their native language in a modern way


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## jimreilly

To shift the discussion to a different language...it seems to me Norwegians today often pronounce Nowegian from older times (often Dano-Norwegian) as if it were modern Norwegian Bokmål, when it might have once been pronounced somewhat differently. Perhaps a Norwegian could confirm (or deny) this....

There are even Norwegian songs (i.e. songs by Norwegian composers such as Grieg) that have Danish texts that are often/usually sung with a pronunication like modern Norwegian.


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## Cecilio

ireney said:


> Unless you are talking about the local bozos who also believe that we came from Aliens etc and who are in fact (and thankfully) very few no, there aren't many Greeks who make this stupid claim.



Hello, Ireney. Who are these "bozos"? I've never heard this word before. Thanks!


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## claudine2006

Setwale_Charm said:


> I guess, it is the same with Latin. No records have survived, unfortunately. And the adopted way of pronouncing Latin letters differs from country to country! I noticed in a multilingual parish that people from different countries and linguistic backgrounds pronounce Latin words differently.


When I first listen to the latin pronunciation of my Spanish mates, I found it very strange. They pronounce the sound "ae" or "ti" exactly as it's written. In Italy we say ae=e, ti=zi.
I made a little research and I discovered that Spain adopted the ancient pronunciation (the one of Roman empire) and Italy the medieval pronunciation.


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## ireney

Cecillio "bozo", amongst other things, means a complete and utter idiot. Since we are not the descedants of aliens, we share humanity's plight and have some medical miracles (they walk, talk and don't have a brain! amazing) that we can call our own.


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## jmx

Cecilio said:


> Who are these "bozos"?


Try this :   http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bozo


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## englishman

ireney said:


> Unless you are talking about the local bozos who also believe that we came from Aliens etc and who are in fact (and thankfully) very few no, there aren't many Greeks who make this stupid claim.


I've met one, and he was well educated and intelligent, and certainly not a bozo, but he seemed to have a particular blind spot regarding this question - I have no idea why. It seemed to a matter of national pride in some way.


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## Setwale_Charm

ireney said:


> Cecillio "bozo", amongst other things, means a complete and utter idiot. Since we are not the descedants of aliens, we share humanity's plight and have some medical miracles (they walk, talk and don't have a brain! amazing) that we can call our own.


 
 Thanks! Now I know 2 Greek words already!!


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## Lykurg

ireney said:
			
		

> This is sad; just as sad as the fact that (need evil emoticon here) many non-Greeks feel a distinct pleasure in making fun of modern Greek without really knowing anything about it (or modern Greeks for that matter). At least I have yet to hear a Greek say that since we are looked down upon for using modern pronunciation, they same should be true for non-Greeks who pronounce older forms of their native language in a modern way


Ireney, I'm sorry if my remark on pronunciation sounded like making fun of modern Greek. I definitely didn't intend that. I regret that my knowledge of modern Greek is very limited though having been there twice yet. One thing that impressed me very much when I visited Greece was that your τέμενοι are still regarded and kept as sacred areas. The natural respect you show to your history is really great - one of its finest examples being the Athens Metro stations, (in my opinion) a successful meeting point of ancient and modern lifestyle.

I think we should always try to pronounce older forms accordingly to the best reconstruction we have - regardless whether it is written in Hebrew, Ancient Greek, Latin, Gothic, Middle High German, Shakespearean English or anything else. I consider that to be some respect we owe our forefather's languages.


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## ireney

englishman said:


> I've met one, and he was well educated and intelligent, and certainly not a bozo, but he seemed to have a particular blind spot regarding this question - I have no idea why. It seemed to a matter of national pride in some way.



 if he said something like that then he wasn't well educated.



Setwale_Charm said:


> Thanks! Now I know 2 Greek words already!!



bozo is not a Greek word


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## Setwale_Charm

What is its origin?


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## Outsider

I have never heard of anyone trying to pronounce ancient Portuguese literature in its original form in public performances. Historical linguists do know some things about what the old pronunciation was like, but I don't think their knowledge carries over to artists. It's a shame, because it would be an interesting experience, but I understand that performers are primarily concerned with being understood by their audiences.

P.S. About ancient Greek: 



> Phonetically, Classic Greek would sound rather alien to contemporary Greeks, but don’t ever say this to them!  It is an issue that most Greeks, even educated ones, ignore. [...] As a contemporary Greek myself, I can give you my personal feeling for how the reconstructed pronunciation sounds: it is as if a _barbarian_ is trying to speak Greek.
> 
> The pronunciation of ancient Greek


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## ireney

Outsider 
a) I never said that phonetically classical Greek wouldn't sound "alien" or rather, very, very strange to contemporary Greeks

b) the author is wrong to claim that you shouldn't mention this to modern Greeks. Contrary to what he says *we know!*

c) as to his personal feeling I cannot really comment. Even if he said that his personal feeling was that ancient Greek pronunciation is the best/sucks I would still not comment. It's his personal feeling.


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## Outsider

I wasn't trying to challenge anything you said, Irene, and I think the author is being a little tongue-in-cheek in the paragraph I quoted from. Notice that he's Greek, too.


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## ireney

Outsider said:


> I wasn't trying to challenge anything you said, Irene, and I think the author is being a little tongue-in-cheek in the paragraph I quoted from. Notice that he's Greek, too.



Oh I did, believe me! The  





> “Ασπασία, τι γκαντεμιά! Εγώ τη ψυλλιάζομαι τη δουλειά, φιρί-φιρί το πάνε να μας την πέσουν οι Λακεδαιμόνιοι. Πρέπει να τους σπάσουμε τον τσαμπουκά!”


 is a dead-give away anyway 

The thing is, I _am_ a bit touchy when it comes to this matter because, for some obscure reason, too many tend to look down on modern Greek and are ready to believe anything that will justify their opinion while dismissing out of hand anything that won't.

For that I apologise. Being touchy means being unjust to some and I think I have just replied too.... "strongly" to what you wrote.


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## modus.irrealis

Lykurg said:


> I think we should always try to pronounce older forms accordingly to the best reconstruction we have - regardless whether it is written in Hebrew, Ancient Greek, Latin, Gothic, Middle High German, Shakespearean English or anything else. I consider that to be some respect we owe our forefather's languages.



I tend to agree, but I can also understand the opposite desire to preserve the connection especially when these earlier works are still perceived as part of the current tradition. Shakespeare is still modern in a way that Beowulf is not, even though Beowulf is very young compared to say the Iliad.



Outsider said:


> I have never heard of anyone trying to pronounce ancient Portuguese literature in its original form in public performances. Historical linguists do know some things about what the old pronunciation was like, but I don't think their knowledge carries over to artists. It's a shame, because it would be an interesting experience, but I understand that performers are primarily concerned with being understood by their audiences.



It would be interesting, if done well. In some languages, changes have occured that obscure why a ancient poem is in fact poetry, and that's a loss for me when the modern pronunciation is used. About Greek, I would really like to see Greeks use a reconstructed pronunciation for the reciting of ancient poetry because English speakers using the reconstructed still sound "English." A Greek speaker, I think, would still sound "Greek," at least to my ears.



Setwale_Charm said:


> What is its origin?



I don't think anyone really knows. This site suggests Spanish.


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