# Are Videogames art?



## Cereth

Literature, Painting/Drawing, Cinema, music, all of them are considered as art..

For creating a videogame tons of storyboards, a good scenario (story/tale) are needed as well as hours and hours spent on the creation of characters, locations and bringing them to life using animation softwares, creating beautiful music and also developing the psyche of main and secondary characters ...

If a videogame includes all the forms of art I mentioned above, Can a videogame be considered as art? 
My point of view: Yes, some video games are art, games like final fantasy whose music and style are so touching and so delicately produced are as sublime as a good movie or famous painting.

But I consider myself as a gamer that is I want to know about the opinion of different people.


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## Hakro

Creating a video game is art, of course. Playing a video game is not.


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## Cereth

of course!, as Mozart´s music is art but listening to it is not


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## pedro0001

The process of developement of a game includes artistic requirements. But be careful. Playing a video game has absolute nothing to do with art. 

edited: Sorry, that was already said


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## Triticum

But if nobody ever played the game or listened to the music, could it still be considered art?  Is not the consumption of the medium a necessary part of the artistic endeavor?


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## Hakro

Triticum said:


> But if nobody ever played the game or listened to the music, could it still be considered art? Is not the consumption of the medium a necessary part of the artistic endeavor?


I disagree: 'Mona Lisa' would be a piece of art even if nobody (but da Vinci himself) had ever seen it.


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## pedro0001

Triticum said:


> But if nobody ever played the game or listened to the music, could it still be considered art?  Is not the consumption of the medium a necessary part of the artistic endeavor?



Buying a video game is not buying art, if that is what you mean. Are many things that require artistics touches, but are not necesarily considered art.


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## Hakro

Cereth said:


> of course!, as Mozart´s music is art but listening to it is not


On  the other hand: Listening doesn't necessarily require anything of the listener but playing a video game successfully requires something. 

If Mozart's music is art and playing it is art, why playing a video game (that is a piece of art) is not art?


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## maxiogee

I would argue with the basic premise here.



Cereth said:


> Literature, Painting/Drawing, Cinema, music, all of them are considered as art.



I would say that there are some creations within these categories which qualify to be called art. Who makes that decision is immaterial —> we all have our tastes and find that in the field of Qwerty the works of X are something 'we' see as art, but the junk turned out by Y isn't.

There will always be taste. This means that some videogames may well be 'art' - and not just 'artifact' or 'artifice'. Some surely are cheap and shoddy and not worth consideration in the debate.


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## Tsoman

Some computer games encourage the user to be artistic. The Sims comes to mind -- you could build your own house and create characters


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## pedro0001

Tsoman said:


> Some computer games encourage the user to be artistic. The Sims comes to mind -- you could build your own house and create characters



That's an artistic process for you? Building houses in a game? I can agree up to some point that architecture is art. But please, not building houses with a game.


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## maxiogee

pedro0001 said:


> That's an artistic process for you? Building houses in a game? I can agree up to some point that architecture is art. But please, not building houses with a game.



Now if the people were to use Lego bricks to make houses for a game, they might be getting towards the artistic end of the spectrum of creative activity.


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## Tsoman

Legos are art.

If a big white box with a piece of poop on it can be art ($20,000), then legos can be art


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## Cereth

When you play a videogame you don´t add your creativity you just act like the game designers predicted..  when you are playing you use your left side of the brain mostly and not your right side(artistic side).
One who only listens to music is not creating, no creation no art.
One who plays an musical instrument or sings, if she/he is only repeating the notes (without adding modifications of any kind to the piece) is not creating, no creation no art.
Gamers, even though there are games like the "sims" don´t "create" they select icons and modes and default features, they are not creating, are only selecting.
Gamers don´t do art, but we enjoy it.

Final Fantasy music created by Nobuo Uematsu is art, me listening to it is not.


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## TonioMiguel

This seems to be spreading off the topic.  The question is video game creation a form of artisitic expression.   As a programmer and an accomplished artist yes, the development of graphical software is a form of art.  Not just anyone can make a beautiful video game.  In fact, sprites a simplier of representing characters for the reason of memory management or iconic art is also a style of art unique to programming.  Even a programmer that does not design graphics is in a way an artist because one must visualize his or her final product although we may consider them artisans which most people call them artists who are not stuck in the formal academy of arts.  On the other hand, can a gamer or user be an artists.  Yes, but it must be consistant with the process and concept contained within the program.  Paint programs are games that get classified as profession tools and the users are artists.  Yet, the rules are very strict on whether the interactivity within a game is constituted as artistic.  If anyone thinks that video games are not an art form, they have not played Donkey Kong Country, Final Fantasy, Zelda, Yoshi's Island and numerous games that clearly are in the hands of truly talented artists.


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## maxiogee

TonioMiguel said:


> If anyone thinks that video games are not an art form,



No one questioned whether the format is "an art form" as human ingenuity and creativity can turn almost any human endeavour into an art form. The question we were asked was "Are video games art?" I still say, some probably are, some definitely aren't and that's just my value judgement on what I've seen after some years involved in renting them to punters.


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## Cereth

TonioMiguel said:


> If anyone thinks that video games are not an art form, they have not played Donkey Kong Country, Final Fantasy, Zelda, Yoshi's Island and numerous games that clearly are in the hands of truly talented artists.


 
Totally Agree


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## Hakro

I've never played any video game but I have seen them, that's why I think they are art. 
Are they all? It's hard to say. 
There are good and less good musical compositions. Are they all art? I'm not able to judge.
I'm not able to judge video games, either.


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## Daddyo

Keeping with the artistic expression angle of videogames, I would opine that games such as "Mortal Kombat", "Killer Instinct", "Pit Fighter" and even that silly pseudo-3D "holographic" fighting game, although innovative, when compared to the seminal "Street Fighter II" are the equivalent of comparing a pin-up poster to a Vermeer.
So there are definite degrees of greatness in the artistic accomplishments of a game that go hand in hand with the technological (engines) aspects of it: I think a game has to be not only "artsy", but also definitive of a genre to be considered a work of art.
For example: the game "PacLand" was very pretty, but was only a slight departure from the original Pac-Man.
In the other extreme we have the peerless Final Fantasy series (with their extensive borrowing from Carmina Burana and apocalyptic doomsdays) or the beautiful, poignant, innovative and (sadly) unsuccessful "Ico" (of Playstation fame).


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## mytwolangs

Cereth said:


> But I consider myself as a gamer that is I want to know about the opinion of different people.


EVERY young person who plays video games has some fantasy about designing them, thinking it is an art form. 
Then they find out that computer language is the toughest thing in the world to learn, and all the sudden they decide on another career, like being the assistant manager at McDonalds. 

Video games are not art, they are machines to keep American kids stupid.


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## divina

Depends on the video game...


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## Triticum

It seems to me like this is a classic case of needing to define our terms.  What is _art_?  When is art not art?  What makes art art?  An age-old question, indeed.


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## Daddyo

mytwolangs said:


> EVERY young person who plays video games has some fantasy about designing them, thinking it is an art form.
> Then they find out that computer language is the toughest thing in the world to learn, and all the sudden they decide on another career, like being the assistant manager at McDonalds.
> 
> Video games are not art, they are machines to keep American kids stupid.




Actually, when I was young I had fantasies about designing video games just to become filthy rich. Now that I'm much older (I was almost done with childhood by the time the first Pong console was ever sold!) I have the luxury of actually considering the art expressed in the video games.
As for the kids "aiming lower their expectations", from wanting to learn programming and then finding it too hard so that they must become managers at McDonald's, some of us went even lower: we abandoned programming for professional translation.


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## Chaska Ñawi

I think (but speaking as forera, not mod) that we should take Triticum's point before we go any further with this.

For me, art is when a transaction happens.  If you put something of yourself into the creation of something, be it building a house, knitting a sweater, painting a picture, playing a piece of music, or creates a video game, you have one transaction.

If somebody lives in your house and gets to know it intimately; wears your sweater and builds up an association with that sweater; never forgets your painting, even though she never sees it again; listens to you playing and interacts with your music; or plays your game and interacts with the scenery and characters, you have another transaction.

That three-way transaction between artist and object and viewer is, for me, art at its best.

I asked my children what they thought; here are their responses verbatim:



> Yeah, sure, you can make them whatever you want and it takes a lot of skill and stuff.  It's art.


  (Eleven-year-old son)



> Yeah, I guess.  It's a different kind of art from paintings, but it's still art because, like, um, it takes like a lot of work to, like, make the way the people look and fit it all together.  And it's not like anyone could, like, just step in and do it all and make it look good.


 (Thirteen-year-old daughter)


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## dawn-ccino

OF COURSE IT'S AN ART! Creating a video game takes a lot of talent and creativity. If you can't call this art, then I don't know what is.


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## maxiogee

Triticum said:


> But if nobody ever played the game or listened to the music, could it still be considered art?  Is not the consumption of the medium a necessary part of the artistic endeavor?



Two questions:

Imagine Michelangelo's David were to be stolen, placed in a crate and shipped to a foreign country. En route the ship capsizes and the crate goes to the bottom of the sea. The statue is never seen again by human eyes, but rests unseen on the ocean floor - is it no longer a work of art?
Now, imagine that Michelangelo had made another statue, one of Goliath - to accompany his David. Let us suppose that as he finished it, and before anyone had ever seen it, it was swallowed by an earthquake into a hole in the ground and no trace of it exists. Is *it* art?


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## pedro0001

maxiogee said:


> Two questions:
> Now, imagine that Michelangelo had made another statue, one of Goliath - to accompany his David. Let us suppose that as he finished it, and before anyone had ever seen it, it was swallowed by an earthquake into a hole in the ground and no trace of it exists. Is *it* art?



Yes, but as long as the statue status remains unknown I would say it *was* art. 

(Actually something like this happened with the statue of a Horse that Da Vinci once made. It was used by the Frenchs to make ammunition  ).


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## maxiogee

pedro0001 said:


> Yes, but as long as the statue status remains unknown I would say it *was* art.
> 
> (Actually something like this happened with the statue of a Horse that Da Vinci once made. It was used by the Frenchs to make ammunition  ).



If the statue remains intact then it hasn't changed, and cannot change from "art" to having the status of some sort of "was art".


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## TonioMiguel

mytwolangs said:


> Video games are not art, they are machines to keep American kids stupid.



First of all you seem to misunderstand the concept of machine verses software.  Video games are software.  They are designed and take a great deal of dedication and work.  They require writing, they are composition (music), and they are a fine art.  Even the earliest video games were an example of minimalist art aka Pong, Pacman, Centipede.

They may have the capabilities to rot kids brains as you say it.  Yet, many of us gamer generation kids including myself a teacher from the nintendo generation understand how to balance our love for games with reality.  I am sorry that many parents do not control their children's video gaming habits but video games are not the only thing that rob a child's academic endeavors.  Heck before Video games there was sports which have a good side too but many kids spend too much time in sports and not enough time in academics.

Your statement loses ground because it just does not take into effect the fact that somebody had to take the time to create and see the game through.  I doubt you would argue Warhall was not an artist and he never did one of his pieces of art even Rodin has been accused of using students to do his work.  I am an artist in portraits and yet I have to keep on myself to complete my works just like Video game designers.  The video game is like a print off an artist plate.  It is only a copy in which one can enjoy the designers art.


Video games are an art form.  They take just about as much work as movies do if not more.  The problem is many of us have been getting caught in the old academy world of "what is art?"  this is foolish.  Art is not art because we say it is... No, art is art because of the work put into creating the work.


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## übermönch

I don't like calling all the interactive stuff on computer_ "Games"_. It can be both platform for chess-like board games like... _*chess*, _simple arcade games as _*tetris *_or *asteroids*, reality simulators as _*JFK reloaded*_ or _*Xplane*_, interactive drama/adventures/whatever like _*The Last Express*_, *I have no mouth and I must scream* or _*Façade*_, or any kind of philosophical/odd ... *stuff *as *Seiklus *and *FlyGuy. *Computer software can combine input, music and picture and thus *can be* the platform for the* ultimate art*... or at least on the way thereto.

Take a look at http://www.gamesareart.com/


divina said:


> Depends on the video game...


Agreed.That works for all kinds of art mediums. Not any kind of _sound _or _picture _is it.


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## artero

art  is  the  capacity  to  create  some thing... what  it  happend  later  with  the  creation   it  depends  about  us...  since  we start  to  talk  about,  we  give  it  the importance  to   the  problem...
the thing here  is that  an  art  object can be  created  once.
In  this  topic  happen that  people  will  like  to  create  a better  desing,  cause  we talk about  tecnic..


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## Cereth

mytwolangs said:


> EVERY young person who plays video games has some fantasy about designing them, thinking it is an art form.
> Then they find out that computer language is the toughest thing in the world to learn, and all the sudden they decide on another career, like being the assistant manager at McDonalds.
> 
> Video games are not art, they are machines to keep American kids stupid.


 
I am a gamer, and Psycologist and EN-ES translator, I have never wanted to design a videogame, I feel so relaxed when I play a game that has beautiful music, and an interesting story...I Know psyquiatrists, Engineers, Designers, psychologists,lawyers, teachers who play videogames and consider videogames as art....


video games keep American kids stupid?............No comments.....that is another topic..


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## Span_glish

I think videogames contain art.  But playing them, more than being considered art, should be a hobby or sport, since they require skills.
Personally, I am not interested in videogames, but it's because they make me sick, kind of like motion sickness.


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