# Dozen of eggs



## sesperxes

Dear foreros,

I've started this thread by accident in the Slavic forum and, according the answers received, it seems to be quite interesting.

In Spain, in Italy and in France (at least) eggs are sold by dozen or half a dozen but in other countries (Hungary, Croatia, Poland...) they use 10 units, 6 units and even 60 units!

What's the unit used in your countries?

What's the origin of counting eggs by dozens?

Thanks.


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## ancalimon

Turkish:  "bir düzine yumurta" : 12 eggs


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## Treaty

The first egg box was invented in Canada in 1911. It was a 12-egg box (patent sketch, and another by the same inventor in 1927). It is probable that this boxing has given a popularity to "dozen" eggs. 
However, "dozen" had been already an important trade number. Maybe it was already in use for selling eggs.


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## NorwegianNYC

The duodecimal system is a very ancient system that has survived in certain settings, such as imperial measures (12 inches to a foot), time telling, and goods like eggs (6 or 12), beer/wine (6, 12, 24), baked goods (12+1 is a baker's dozen) etc. The dozen is a natural choice due to its many factors.


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## Stoggler

NorwegianNYC said:


> The duodecimal system is a very ancient system that has survived in certain settings, such as imperial measures (12 inches to a foot), time telling, and goods like eggs (6 or 12), beer/wine (6, 12, 24), baked goods (12+1 is a baker's dozen) etc. The dozen is a natural choice due to its many factors.



Not to mention monetary systems too - a number of European systems were descended from the Roman libra-solidus-denarius system which continued in the UK until 1971 when Britain finally went decimal.  In that system, there were 12 pennies (denari) to a shilling (solidus) (and then 20 shillings to a pound).


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## fdb

Curiously, most (or all?) languages that have a special word for “dozen” (as opposed to the number “twelve”) have borrowed this term either from French “douzaine” or from Italian “dozzina”. This includes forms like Arabic _dazz__īna_, Turkish _d__üzine,_ Russian дюжина, and (from Russian) Persian _doj__īn_.


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## fdb

By the way, in English one does not say "dozen of eggs" (as in the thread title), but "a dozen eggs, dozens of eggs".


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## apmoy70

In Greece, one can buy egg boxes of 4, called «τετράδα» [te'traða] (fem.) --> _quadruplet_, boxes of 6, called «εξάδα» [e'ksaða] (fem.) --> _sextet_, boxes of 10, called «δεκάδα» [ðe'kaða] (fem.) --> _decade_, boxes of 12, called «δωδεκάδα» [ðoðe'kaða] (fem.), or, «ντουζίνα» [du'zina] (fem.) --> _dozen_, and boxes of 30 eggs, called «τριαντάδα» [tri.an'daða] (fem.) --> _30-pack_


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## Egmont

fdb said:


> Curiously, most (or all?) languages that have a special word for “dozen” (as opposed to the number “twelve”) have borrowed this term either from French “douzaine” or from Italian “dozzina”. This includes forms like Arabic _dazz__īna_, Turkish _d__üzine,_ Russian дюжина, and (from Russian) Persian _doj__īn_.


Definitely not all. The Hebrew word for _dozen_ is treysar (תריסר). It comes from roots that mean "two" and "ten."


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## bazq

fdb said:


> Curiously, most (or all?) languages that have a special word for “dozen” (as opposed to the number “twelve”) have borrowed this term either from French “douzaine” or from Italian “dozzina”. This includes forms like Arabic _dazz__īna_, Turkish _d__üzine,_ Russian дюжина, and (from Russian) Persian _doj__īn_.



This is very interesting indeed! 

Egmont, there is no special word for "dozen" in Biblical Hebrew, but we use "תרי-עשר"/"תריסר" (tre-assar/tressar) which is the Aramaic "twelve", if we explicitly want to say "dozen".


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## fdb

bazq said:


> we use "תרי-עשר"/"תריסר" (tre-assar/tressar) which is the Aramaic "twelve", if we explicitly want to say "dozen".



Indeed. The correct Aramaic spelling is of course תריעסר (Syriac ܬܪܥܣܪ) and the Middle Aramaic pronunciation is /treʻsar/ with ע.


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## Ben Jamin

NorwegianNYC said:


> The duodecimal system is a very ancient system that has survived in certain settings, such as imperial measures (12 inches to a foot), time telling, and goods like eggs (6 or 12), beer/wine (6, 12, 24), baked goods (12+1 is a baker's dozen) etc. The dozen is a natural choice due to its many factors.


The word dozen and all the versions in other IE langauges in Europe comes from Latin duodecimus, later tranasformed into French dozaine. Hence: docena, dozen, dusin, dutzend, dusin, dussin, dozijn, dozzina, tuzet, tuzin, дюжина. Only Greek breaks out of the range with δωδεκάδα, while the Finno-Ugrian langauges have tucet (H), tosin (Est) and tusina (Fin).


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## fdb

Ben Jamin said:


> The word dozen and all the versions in other IE langauges in Europe comes from Latin duodecimus,



Yes, but not DIRECTLY from Latin, but from Italian _dozzina_, which in turn is from French _douzaine_. "dozen" is basically a commercial term ("set of twelve goods") which proliferated at the time when Venice and Genoa controlled much of international trade.


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## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> The word dozen and all the versions in other IE langauges in Europe comes from Latin duodecimus, later tranasformed into French dozaine.


French _douze _(_twelve_) is derived from the cardinal number _duodecim_. The ordinal number _duodecim-us/-a/-um_ produced French douzième. The _-n_ in _dozen _needs to be explained differently. In French, _-aine_ is a productive suffix to produce collective nouns. For a _group of one hundred persons_ you say _une centaine de personnes_ or for a _eight pages long passage_ in a book you say _une huitaine de pages_. In modern French this construct _une xxx-aine de_ is often used to expresses _about xxx_.

EDIT: Crossed with fdb's post.
 @fdb: Do we really need Italian to explain _douzaine_? The suffix _-aine_ can directly be traced back to the Latin adjective _-ān-us/-a/-um_. Also the function of the suffix to produce collective nouns exists in other French words derived from this suffix, e.g. _monat__ā__nus > ... > montagne_._ Dozzina _seem to be cognate to _douzaine _and not its etymon.


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## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> French _douze _(_twelve_) is derived from the cardinal number _duodecim_. The ordinal number _duodecim-us/-a/-um_ produced French douzième. The _-n_ in _dozen _needs to be explained differently. In French, _-aine_ is a productive suffix to produce collective nouns. For a _group of one hundred persons_ you say _une centaine de personnes_ or for a _eight pages long passage_ in a book you say _une huitaine de pages_. In modern French this construct _une xxx-aine de_ is often used to expresses _about xxx_.
> 
> EDIT: Crossed with fdb's post.
> @fdb: Do we really need Italian to explain _douzaine_? The suffix _-aine_ can directly be traced back to the Latin adjective _-ān-us/-a/-um_. Also the function of the suffix to produce collective nouns exists in other French words derived from this suffix, e.g. _monat__ā__nus > ... > montagne_._ Dozzina _seem to be cognate to _douzaine _and not its etymon.



Of course, douze comes from dudecim not dudecimus, sorry, too fast typing.
I did'nt say that douzaine comes directly from Latin, it was just a short wat of expressing it.
Which language spread the word all over Europe: French or Italian?


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## fdb

Please read again what I wrote. _douzaine_ is a genuine French formation. _dozzina_ is borrowed, or rather restructured, from French, with the Italian suffix _-ina. _The Arabic, Turkish, Russian etc. forms are borrowed from Italian in the age of Venetian/Genoese mercantile supremacy. Hindi/Urdu _darjan_ is borrowed from English.


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## francisgranada

Hungarian _tucat _(from _tutsat_, the Bavarian-Austrian version of the German _dutzend_)

The formation of the proper word in Romance languages is quite regular, e.g. in Spanish we have also _decena _(amount of 10), _veintena _(20), _treintena _(30) _centena _(100) ... So the word _docena _and its variants in other Romance languages do not _a priori_ presuppose the pre-existence of a duodecimal system of counting. 

Neigther 12 months in a year nor twice 12 hours in a day are due to a duodecimal system. The importance of 12 in astronomy is given probably by the 12 lunar cycles in a year, independently on the counting system. By the way, the Roman calendar had originally only 10 months (January and February were added later). 

Of course, 12 as unit may be a heritage or borrowing from people that had a duodecimal system, but maybe they were other reasons for counting eggs in dozens ...

P.S. Sorry, I have not noticed the previous 3 posts while writing this post ...


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## berndf

fdb said:


> Please read again what I wrote. _douzaine_ is a genuine French formation. _dozzina_ is borrowed, or rather restructured, from French, with the Italian suffix _-ina._


My mistake. I indeed misread your post.


fdb said:


> The Arabic, Turkish, Russian etc.


If the "etc." does _not_ include English and German, I am with you.


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## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> If the "etc." does _not_ include English and German, I am with you.


Does it mean that the Germanic languages borrowed directly from French? 

The Slavic languages (except Russian and Ukrainian) and Hungarian seem to have borrowed the word from German.


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## atcheque

Bonjour,

In Czech republic, eggs are sold by 6, 10, 15, 30.


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## Ben Jamin

francisgranada said:


> Of course, 12 as unit may be a heritage or borrowing from people that had a duodecimal system, but maybe they were other reasons for counting eggs in dozens ...



The duodecimal system coexisted with the decimal system in a long time, especially in the commercial use. Regarding eggs, they have been sold in centuries not only by dozens but also by sixty-units.


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## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> Does it mean that the Germanic languages borrowed directly from French?


With respect to English, I would say yes. In the case of German, I am simply not sure. The word entered German only around 1500, so it may have arrived via Italian and French concurrently. The spelling with <tz> corresponds in pronunciation to the Italian <zz> but there are also historical spellings with <ou> and only one <z> that suggest French influence.


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## fdb

How did _dutzend_ get its -_d_?


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## berndf

Probably by the same process in Early Modern High German that made _jeman>jemand, Ackes>Axt, Obes>Obst_, etc. The earlier attestations in German still lack that final_ -d_.


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## francisgranada

Ben Jamin said:


> The duodecimal system coexisted with the decimal system in a long time, especially in the commercial use. Regarding eggs, they have been sold in centuries not only by dozens but also by sixty-units.


I understand, but we have to distinguish the proper duodecimal number system (where the base is 12 and not 10) from the usage of 12 as unit for certain purposes.  Languages that use duodecimal systems are very uncommon (though probably not inexistent). On the other hand, for example, the historical presence of the vigesimal number system is attested also in Europe (probably of Vasconic origin). As consequence, we have e.g. _quatre vingt _instead of _huitante (octante) _in standard French (i.e. the _base _for expressing 80 is 20 and not 10). 

All I wanted to say is that it is not necessary to presuppose the existence of a language that has/had a duocecimal number system to explain the practical usage of _dozens_.  Various units were used in the past for different purposes, regardless of the number system (e.g. 1 yard = 3 feet, 1 perch = 5.5 yards, 1 acre = 40x4 perches etc...).


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## CapnPrep

berndf said:


> French _douze _(_twelve_) is derived from the cardinal number _duodecim_. The ordinal number _duodecim-us/-a/-um_ produced French douzième.


The suffix _-ième_ comes from Latin ordinal forms, but _douzième_ must be a derivation within French, _douze_ + -_ième_. You can't go directly from _duodĕcĭmum_ to _douzième_ by regular sound change (intervocalic [d] should not become an affricate).


berndf said:


> The suffix _-aine_ can directly be traced back to the Latin adjective _-ān-us/-a/-um_. Also the function of the suffix to produce collective nouns exists in other French words derived from this suffix, e.g. _monat__ā__nus > ... > montagne_.


_Montagne_ is from _montānea_, and I don't think this _-ān_- necessarily has any collective meaning. It's just a relational suffix. As for _-ain(e)_, the origin seems in fact to be the Latin distributive/multiplicative suffix _-ēni_, not _-ānum_. (But again, _douzaine_ doesn't derive directly from _duodēni_.) The modern spelling indicates that at some point it probably was assimilated to the relational _-ain(e)_ < _-ānum_.


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## origumi

fdb said:


> Indeed. The correct Aramaic spelling is of course תריעסר (Syriac ܬܪܥܣܪ) and the Middle Aramaic pronunciation is /treʻsar/ with ע.


It must be different among Aramaic dialects. In Jewish "Middle" Aramaic both תריסר and תרי עשר appear, I guess that the former is a general eastern Aramaic (Babylonian) form and the latter is influenced by Hebrew, where both ע (`ayin) and ש (sin) survived much later.

Back to the eggs - in Israel they are usually sold in boxes of 12 or 36, yet I don't think there's a word for that.


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## Forero

NorwegianNYC said:


> The duodecimal system is a very ancient system that has survived in certain settings, such as imperial measures (12 inches to a foot), time telling, and goods like eggs (6 or 12), beer/wine (6, 12, 24), baked goods (12+1 is a baker's dozen) etc. The dozen is a natural choice due to its many factors.


I don't know if you made a pun on purpose, but I think the fact that divides evenly by 2, 3, 4, and 6 makes it convenient. In particular, a half dozen, a quarter dozen, and a third of a dozen are all whole numbers, so a dozen is easily broken without breaking the eggs.


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## berndf

CapnPrep said:


> _Montagne is from montānea_, ...


which in turn is from _montanus_ (at the end of the section).





CapnPrep said:


> ..._,__ and I don't think this -ān- necessarily has any collective meaning._


No, not necessarily; but in this example and I only wanted to point out that there is a case where it did.





CapnPrep said:


> As for _-ain(e)_, the origin seems in fact to be the Latin distributive/multiplicative suffix _-ēni_, not _-ānum_.


But this definitely makes better semantic sense. Thanks for the reference.


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## djara

In Tunisia, the unit for selling eggs is 4, called  حارة "hara". Eggs are also sold in units of 12 called طزينة "tozzina", probably a borrowing from Italian


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## sotos

In Japan wrap eggs in fives! http://www.amazon.com/How-Wrap-Five-Eggs-Traditional/dp/1590306198

I have some more ideas on why the numbers 6 and 12 are practical when it comes to eggs:
1) Whe you collect and carry eggs with bare hands, you can easily hold 3 in each hand by securing one egg between every two of the long fingers and still having the thumb free to scratch your nose or for other uses. 
2) Primitive implements to hold and carry eggs could easily be made by dividing a round holder in six equal parts, like this. http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mQqO7xoeGW15YcduIDvluYQ.jpg
But dividing a circle in five or seven is complicated and leaves lots of unusable space.


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