# Di chi aspetteremo la venuta?



## islaproject

Salve a tutti. Vorrei iniziare a contestualizzare la mia richiesta. Si tratta di un discorso in cui si esortano gli ascoltatori a non stare fermi ai loro posto in attesa di evento quasi miracoloso che risolva la situazione..
Per cui potrei dire: quando assisteremo a certe cose, quando non sapremo piu' cosa fare, DI CHI ASPETTEREMO LA VENUTA?

E' correto tradurre le frasi introdotta da QUANDO con il simple present e la frase centrale al futuro con "Whose shall we wait the.......(rising up???)"

Scusate per la singolarita' della domanda.. e spero possiate aiutarmi..
Grazie


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## london calling

Ciao!
Do you mean something like the coming of the Messiah (which is what the Jews have been waiting for for centuries)? In that sense?


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## islaproject

Yes... I mean exactly that...


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## london calling

My try!

_When we see certain things happen, when we no longer know how to react/what to do about them, whose coming shall_ (meglio "should" però, secondo me, suona meglio) _we await?_ 

Sono sicura che qualcun altro avrà qualche altro suggerimento! Anche perchè la frase è un po' strana anche in inglese...


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## islaproject

Si, me ne rendo perfettamente conto... Però il concetto che deve esprimere è proprio quello...


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## MünchnerFax

Hi london (or everyone else reading us ),
Can you actually use such a sentence in English with the same idiomatic meaning we have in the Italian one, that is, waiting for the events without intervening in time?


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## brian

MünchnerFax said:


> Hi london (or everyone else reading us ),
> Can you actually use such a sentence in English with the same idiomatic meaning we have in the Italian one, that is, waiting for the events without intervening in time?


I don't understand the question.  What do you mean by "without intervening in time"?


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## MünchnerFax

Well, let's say, we have a problem but nobody of those who are responsible for it or able to solve it takes action. Then, it seems we all are waiting for someone (the Messiah ) to come and sort it out for us.


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## brian

And then what would the "idiomatic" Italian sentence be in that case? Would someone ask, "Di chi aspettiamo la venuta?"

I suppose you meant "waiting for the events without intervening *in the meantime*," right?


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## MünchnerFax

Right. 
Well, actually I tried to explain what islaproject meant by that. I wouldn't say it is a fixed idiom in Italian, but the meaning is immediately understandable.


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## brian

Okay I see now! I think that most likely you would not hear someone ask, "Whose coming are we awaiting/waiting for," even though the meaning is quite clear. At least it's not something I can imagine myself saying..


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## islaproject

Hi. I want to say about the meaning of my sentence that it's not a direct question. It's more like an appeal, a part of a preaching where the preacher says something like: ok, we live in this world, in this times that are not the best we can get but what o WHO ARE WE WAITING FOR ? Let's do something...


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## london calling

brian8733 said:


> Okay I see now! I think that most likely you would not hear someone ask, "Whose coming are we awaiting/waiting for," even though the meaning is quite clear. At least it's not something I can imagine myself saying..


Yes, I agree, which is why I said I thought the sentence sounded strange in English, but as islaproject says, it's strange in Italian as well, so fair enough!

I suppose in "normal" English we'd say something along the lines of:

_What are you/we/they waiting for? Divine intervention?_

This is obviously very sarcastic... I don't think islaproject's sentence is ironic at all, right, islap?!


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## islaproject

Yes, you're right. It's not ironic. You've said :
I suppose in "normal" English we'd say something along the lines of:

_What are you/we/they waiting for? Divine intervention?_

But I would explain that there's a little difference between this sentence and the one I want to translate. Because in my case I know that we are waiting for an intervetion.. But I'm asking ourself, whose...


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## london calling

islaproject said:


> Yes, you're right. It's not ironic. You've said :
> I suppose in "normal" English we'd say something along the lines of:
> 
> _What are you/we/they waiting for? Divine intervention?_
> 
> But I would explain that there's a little difference between this sentence and the one I want to translate. Because in my case I know that we are waiting for an intervetion.. But I'm asking ourself, whose...


 
Sorry, I think I've confused things for you! My first try translates your original sentence: it's strange in Italian, so it's strange in English!


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## islaproject

Don't worry. I hope that I've explained myself well about the meaning and the feel of the question


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## islaproject

Is it correct if I say:
WHose rising shall we wait for?

I know that english uses a grammatic rule called "Double future"
*I’ll go for a walk when it stops raining*
** 
So i my sentence do I have to translate:
_When we see certain things happen, when we no longer know what to do about them_
_Whose rising shall we wait for?_

ora do I have to translate both sentences with a future?


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## neuromatico

Hi islaproject,

I would avoid using "rising"; "arrival" works better; "coming" works best (thanks lc!).

If we're speaking of an exhortation from the pulpit (referring to a higher power), archaic language is often used:

Whom shall we await?
Whose coming shall we await? 

A modernized version would use the conditional:

For whom should we wait?
Whose coming should we await?


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## london calling

islaproject said:


> *I’ll go for a walk when it stops raining*
> 
> So in my sentence do I have to translate:
> _When we see certain things happen, when we no longer know what to do about them_
> _Whose rising shall we wait for?_ My original translation is the "formal" version of this: in theory you can't end a sentence with a preposition, but it's become quite normal now. As a matter of fact some sentences sound silly if you don't! A famous quote (a joke) by Winston Churchill: _"Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put"._
> 
> do I have to translate both sentences with a future? No....otherwise I'd have done it when I translated it for you the first time...Oh ye of little faith!


Why do you use rising? You said _venuta_, which is coming, not rising - or have you changed your mind?


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## islaproject

Hi... First of all, thanks again for your help..
I asked about the use of the future becuase I want to be sure that I've understood the rule.

I didn't change my mind. I was thinking that "rising" is like "ascesa" in italian.. or am I wrong?


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## london calling

islaproject said:


> I didn't change my mind. I was thinking that "rising" is like "ascesa" in italian.. or am I wrong?


Ma "venuta" e "ascesa" sono due cose diverse anche in italiano, questo volevo dire!  Cosa intendi per _ascesa_ qui? L'ascesa al potere di un politico, tipo? Se sì, non direi _rising_, ma "rise to power" (_rising _mi sa tanto di resurrezione...).

_Whose rise to power will we have to wait for?_


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## neuromatico

It depends. 

Jesus rose from the dead; his was an "ascent", (which I prefer to "rising").
However, the Messiah (the anticipated saviour of the Jews) is simply expected to "arrive", referred to a his "coming" (per lc).


EDIT. Sorry, lc. I didn't see your post. But I had thought islaproject meant the Messiah (#2 and 3).


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## london calling

neuromatico said:


> Jesus rose from the dead; his was an "ascent", (which I prefer to "rising").
> However, the Messiah (the anticipated saviour of the Jews) is simply expected to "arrive", referred to a his "coming" (per lc).
> 
> 
> EDIT. Sorry, lc. I didn't see your post. But I had thought islaproject meant the Messiah (#2 and 3). So had I originally!  But then islaproject changed it to rising, so I wasn't sure any more...IP?


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## Danieloid

london calling said:


> it's strange in Italian, so it's strange in English!


Yes, the italian sentence is strange, and, I would add, confusing.


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## islaproject

Ciao.. Scrivendo in Italiano mi esprimo decisamente meglio.
Personalmente non capisco da cosa derivi la confusione .. Ritengo che il termine ASCESA possa avere diverse sfumature, e inserito in questo contesto mi pare paragonabile e piu' incisivo di venuta. Il termine VENUTA lo assocerei al termine NASCITA. Mentre il termine ascesa lo accosterei a qualcuno che oltre a manifestarsi si eleva rispetto agli altri ponendosi come guida. Secondo me è un sinonimo di INNALZARSI. Poi non so se l'inglese abbia effettivamente queste sfumature. Non vorrei che ci si stesse confondendo con ASCENSIONE che in contesto religioso assume un ulteriore significato.
Grazie per la pazienza....


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## Danieloid

islaproject said:


> Ritengo che il termine ASCESA possa avere diverse sfumature, e inserito in questo contesto mi pare paragonabile e piu' incisivo di venuta. Il termine VENUTA lo assocerei al termine NASCITA. Mentre il termine ascesa lo accosterei a qualcuno che oltre a manifestarsi si eleva rispetto agli altri ponendosi come guida.



Isla, ascendere significa salire verso l'alto, innalzarsi (verso il trono, per esempio), ma non "elevarsi rispetto agli altri ponendosi come guida", che casomai può essere un concetto conseguente.
"Venuta" significa la venuta di qualcuno (il Salvatore, per esempio) tra di noi. Certo, Gesù "venne" tra di noi nascendo, ma venuta e nascita non sono sinonimi. Ascesa non è "paragonabile" (?) a venuta, venuta non è sinonimo di nascita.
Capisci la nostra confusione? 
Ecco perché, comunque, se riesco a interpretare il tuo pensiero, qui stiamo prlando di una frase che in italiano potrebbe essere:
"Che cosa aspettiamo? Che qualcuno arrivi a salvarci? Diamoci da fare, invece!"


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## islaproject

CIao.. Credo sia una mera questione di dialettica.. In ogni caso sono contento delle vostre indicazioni. Vorrei chiedervi un'ulteriore cosa.
Lo spunto mi viene dal titolo di un film: "Fantastic 4 - The rise of the Silver Surfer". Questo titolo come dovrebbe essere tradotto e interpretato?


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## neuromatico

Io lo tradurrei con l'ascesa.


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## Danieloid

Sì. Il personaggio in questione, Silver Surfer, all'inizio del film è un cattivo al servizio di un supercattivo, poi si ravvede e diventa buono. "Ascende" quindi, in una metaforica scala ascendente che va dalla cieca crudeltà alla illuminata bontà, dal basso verso l'alto.
Mi viene in mente anche il titolo di un famoso disco di David Bowie: "The rise and fall of Ziggy Stardust": "Ascesa e caduta di Ziggy Stardust"


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## islaproject

Perfetto. Mi è tutto chiaro ora. Vi ringrazio vivamente.. e vi auguro una buona giornata


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## london calling

Danieloid said:


> Sì. Il personaggio in questione, Silver Surfer, all'inizio del film è un cattivo al servizio di un supercattivo, poi si ravvede e diventa buono. "Ascende" quindi, in una metaforica scala ascendente che va dalla cieca crudeltà alla illuminata bontà, dal basso verso l'alto.
> Mi viene in mente anche il titolo di un famoso disco di David Bowie: "The rise and fall of Ziggy Stardust": "Ascesa e caduta di Ziggy Stardust"


Yes, or the famous book: The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.


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## Danieloid

The list is probably long but, you know, I'm an old 70s rock music maniac…


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