# この世ならぬ象徴の世界を描いていた。



## Starfrown

...この世ならぬ象徴の世界を描いていた。

I read this line in Kawabata a while back, and I was wondering about the phrase: この世ならぬ象徴の世界. Is ならぬ here the 未然形 of the copula なり with the 連体形 of the negative auxiliary ず/ぬ.

That is, does it have the same meaning as:

この世じゃない象徴の世界

?


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## Wishfull

Hi, Starflown
I think your analysis is correct.
They have the same meaning.
The differences are times, forms, and formal-ness.

この世ならぬ象徴の世界を描いていた。(old written form,formal)
この世*じゃない*象徴の世界を描*いてた*。(modern, spoken form,informal)
この世ではない象徴の世界を描いていた。(modern, spoken and written, formal)

If　Kawabata had written この世じゃない, his magnificent style would have been lost and he might have lost Nobel Prize.


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## Ocham

The なる used to mean "to lie/exist/be in (a place)" in one of the old 
usages of なり. So この世ならぬ is put into この世にはない(（things） that 
don't exist in this world) in modern Japanese.

Here is a famous 和歌 from 古今和歌集 which has this kind of usage of 
なる.

天の原 ふりさけ見れば *春日なる 三笠の山*にい出し月かも
（Mt. Mikasa which lies in Kasuga)

和歌(waka): a classical Japanese poem of thirty-one syllables.


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## Wishfull

Ocham said:


> The なる used to mean "to lie/exist/be in (a place)" in one of the old
> usages of なり. So この世ならぬ is put into この世にはない(（things） that
> don't exist in this world) in modern Japanese.


Hello, Ocham
I've learned something new from you about the usage of なり.
"この世にはない”　Thank you.

But, for example
_*我こそは先の副将軍、水戸光圀なり。*_
なり　is "be" or "です”　in this context, right?
*私こそが、先の副将軍の水戸光圀です。*
*私こそが、先の副将軍の水戸光圀にあります。*

*この世ではない⇔この世である*
*この世にはない⇔この世にある*

So I still think that *この世ではない　*is better than *この世にはない* in this context. Because この世 is この世界, and この世界　＆　象徴の世界 are both 世界. The same category.

If the orginal sentence is;
この世ならぬ象徴の*風景を*描いていた, your interpretation might be better.

I think the interpretation depends on the feeling whether ”世ofこの世”　and ”世界of象徴の世界” are the same category or not.

I would like to hear your opinion. Please teach me more.
I don't have confidence because my古典's marks were terrible in my old high school days.
Wishfull


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## Ocham

This part in Kawabata's Yukiguni is well-known to be most lyrical and 
hardest to interpret. But we understand he described the scene in a 
train. The author is seated on a bench inside the train. He can see 
the people and the things reflected on the train windows and at the 
same time he can see the running scenes (mountains, fields, forests, 
etc in the dusk) through the windows. These two "worlds" are mixed 
and reflected in the mirror of windows, making この世ならぬ象徴の世界, 
which *can never be seen in this real world*, but only in a symbolic 
"double" world.


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## Wishfull

Ocham said:


> This part in Kawabata's Yukiguni is well-known to be most lyrical and
> hardest to interpret. But we understand he described the scene in a
> train. The author is seated on a bench inside the train. He can see
> the people and the things reflected on the train windows and at the
> same time he can see the running scenes (mountains, fields, forests,
> etc in the dusk) through the windows. These two "worlds" are mixed
> and reflected in the mirror of windows, making この世ならぬ象徴の世界,
> which *can never be seen in this real world*, but only in a symbolic
> "double" world.


Yes. I read Yukiguni a few weeks ago, motivated by this forum, and I remember it.
These two "worlds" are mixed and reflected in the mirror of windows, and この世ならぬ象徴の世界, which *can never be this real world*, but a symbolic "double" world, を描いていた。

この世ならぬ象徴の世界*で描かれていた*。
この世ならぬ象徴の世界*を描いていた*。



Anyway, according to your interpretation, the answer to Starfrown would be;

この世*にゃ*ない、象徴の世界を描いていた。
この世*にゃあ*ない、象徴の世界を描いていた。


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## Starfrown

wishfull said:


> anyway, according to your *[ocham's]* interpretation, the answer to starf*r*own would be...


 
それなら、「ならぬ」が「象徴」を形容するのは、可能ではありませんか。



wishfull said:


> この世*にゃ*ない、象徴の世界を描いていた。
> この世*にゃあ*ない、象徴の世界を描いていた。


 

「にゃない」は「にはない」と同じ意味なんでしょうか？


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## Starfrown

I might be going off on a bit of a tangent--お許しを、皆様--, but I remember reading in a Classical Japanese text that some scholars believe the copula なり to be derived from a contraction of the 助詞 "に" with existential あり. I guess it's not too difficult to see how this might be the case:

我龍王なり

"I exist in [the form of] the dragon king."--> "I am the dragon king."

 
Of course, I don't think it's certain...


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## kaito

It's certain enough to be written in dictionaries.
なり　-> にあり


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## Starfrown

kaito said:


> It's certain enough to be written in dictionaries.
> なり　-> にあり


 
I think you're right.

I forgot that にて is often used as the te form of なり.

Perhaps I was thinking of something else...


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## Wishfull

Starfrown said:


> それなら、「ならぬ」が「象徴」を形容するのは、可能ではありませんか。
> *Yes. I think it possible.*
> *And according to ocham, you, and kaito, I think this is the reasonable explanation.*
> *According to you all, I know I was wrong and *
> *I know now that; *
> *われこそは水戸光圀なり　is not proper example, but われこそは先の副将軍なり*
> *might be better. *
> *Sorry.*
> 
> 「にゃない」は「にはない」と同じ意味なんでしょうか?
> *Yes. I intended to write like the same way as じゃない instead of ではない.*
> *にゃない　is informal, spoken expression of にはない.*
> *にゃない　might be dialect. I don't know it is understandable in whole Japan.*


 
Wait!
I look for my 全訳古語辞典　and it says that なり（助動ナリ型）'s meaning are;
1.断定/　・・・である。　・・・だ。
2.存在/・・・にある。　・・・にいる。
3.資格/・・・である。　　・・・にあたる。
4. ・・・・という。

So mine was No.1, yours are No.2 and No.3.
We are all correct after all. Choose whichever according to one's preference.
Now I think your interpretation might be better, but mine is also possible, grammatically.
Wishfull


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## Starfrown

Wishfull said:


> Wait!
> I look for my 全訳古語辞典　and it says that なり（助動ナリ型）'s meaning are;
> 1.断定/　・・・である。　・・・だ。
> 2.存在/・・・にある。　・・・にいる。
> 3.資格/・・・である。　　・・・にあたる。
> 4. ・・・・という。
> 
> So mine was No.1, yours are No.2 and No.3.
> We are all correct after all. Choose whichever according to one's preference.
> Now I think your interpretation might be better, but mine is also possible, grammatically.
> Wishfull


 
So in conclusion, we may either take ならぬ as ではない modifying 世界 or as にはない modifying 象徴...right?  I'm not really sure which is better...


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## Flaminius

Hi,

なる in sense of 存在 is limited to the Classical adnominal form in association with a noun for the location: 天の原ふりさけ見れば春日*なる*三笠の山に出でし月かも

I don't think ならぬ, which has already _nu_ added to _nari_, can work like above.  この世ならぬ uses なり as a copula.  Similar expressions are; 尋常ならぬ and 一方ならぬ.


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## Ocham

この世ならぬ is definitely an idiomatic phrase. Yahoo! Japan 
Dictionary gives the fixted phrase この世ならぬ美しさ, meaning 
"unearthly [supernatural] beauty", in other words "beauty 
which can never exist in this world."

And この世 can be a place.


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## Starfrown

Flaminius said:


> ...この世ならぬ uses なり as a copula. Similar expressions are; 尋常ならぬ and 一方ならぬ.


I see your point...



Ocham said:


> ...この世ならぬ美しさ, meaning
> "unearthly [supernatural] beauty", in other words "beauty
> which can never exist in this world."
> 
> And この世 can be a place.


...and I also see his.


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## lammn

Well, the "confusion" might perhaps lie in the fact that ならぬ can mean ではない _or_ にはない.
Whether it is ではない or にはない will have to be determined from *context*. 



> この世ならぬ象徴の世界を描いていた。


 
Since この世 {this (real) world} and 象徴の世界 (symbolic world) are *mutually exclusive*, it is unlikely for 象徴の世界 to exist in この世. Thus, you should take ならぬ as で(は)ない, not にはない in this particular case.


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