# Popular area



## graz71

Hello,

How could I say in Japanese "a popular area" meaning an area where you can find mainly low-working class people and where you can find various kind of ethnicities making that area lively because of these different origins.  

Thank you


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## karlalou

Hello,

I think 繁華街（はんかがい han ka gai）is the word for that. Though it's not necessarily for low-working class, and there might be only Japanese stuff available.


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## graz71

Thanks for your answer but I am really looking for a Japanese translation conveying my idea. In Paris some district like mine have bad reputation because of social housing and low-income people like Africans, Algerians, Chinese... mainly immigrants but that's what make this area lively opposed to richer, snobbish, more quieter and boring districts.


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## spu001

Hello, Graz71
Here's a word '人種の坩堝(jinshu no rutsubo: lit. melting pot of races.)'
Paris is described as that in travel guides as well as CA, NY, Sao Paulo etc.

Hope this helps.
Spu


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## graz71

spu001 said:


> Hello, Graz71
> Here's a word '人種の坩堝(jinshu no rutsubo: lit. melting pot of races.)'
> Paris is described as that in travel guides as well as CA, NY, Sao Paulo etc.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> Spu



Thanks, that helps a lot. At least I can convey a general idea.

Would you know how to call social housing areas in Japan, if that exists?


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## spu001

De rien, those areas are called '団地(danchi)' and apartments for people with low-income are called '公営住宅(kōei jūtaku).'
Just for the record, when you use the word '団地' it reminds listeners of rows of buildings like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nchi_003,_Soka,_Saitama_prefecture,_Japan.JPG

Spu


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## graz71

spu001 said:


> De rien, those areas are called '団地(danchi)' and apartments for people with low-income are called '公営住宅(kōei jūtaku).'
> Just for the record, when you use the word '団地' it reminds listeners of rows of buildings like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nchi_003,_Soka,_Saitama_prefecture,_Japan.JPG
> 
> Spu



Thank you for your help.^^


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## spu001

You're welcome


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## SoLaTiDoberman

"たまり場" may be a candidate. It has a negative connotation in it.

"下町" (downtown) may become a candidate in some context.


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## spu001

SoLaTiDoberman, they're off the mark. "たまり場(tamariba: I romanized for other readers)' means a hangout where bizarre people haunt, e.g. McDonald's where truant boys and girls smoke, talk wildly and bother other diners. It usually refers to a restaurant, bar, or playground but not a district.
And '下町(shitamachi)' is nowhere near 'downtown' because the former means 'the' old towns along Sumida River in Tokyo whereas the latter means the central area of a big city like Roppongi, so both of 'たまり場' and '下町' are not right words to describe what the OP wants to say.

Spu


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## SoLaTiDoberman

spu001さんの、＃１０でおっしゃることはよくわかります。

しかし私には、ＯＰのリクエストにぴったりした言葉はこれまでには出ていないと思います。
私には、『たまり場』が違うのと同じ程度以上に『繁華街』や『人種のるつぼ』も違うと思います。
なぜかと申しますと、
『繁華街』は、良い意味にも使われ、『（白人からみた場合の）中国人、ヒスパニック系、アフリカ系などの低所得層のヒト達がメインにいる場所』を指すとは思えません。
『繁華街』が歌舞伎町を指して使われているのであれば、確かにぴったりかもしれませんが、『この町は駅前からしてさびれていますね。どこか繁華街は駅前と離れた別の場所にあるんですかね。』などと旅行者が質問している場合など、その旅行者は、風俗などのいかがわしい場所を求めて質問したり、スラム街みたいな場所を求めて質問しているのではないことはほぼ明白と思うんです。『繁華街』とはその町で最もにぎやかな場所であって、高所得層のヒトがいることもあると思うんですよ。

『人種のるつぼ』は、『ニューヨークは人種のるつぼ』といった感じで使われる単語であり、『繁華街』『スラム街』『たまり場』のような場所を示す言葉として使われるのではなく、ある場所の形容詞として使われる言葉である、という点で、ＯＰのリクエストとはずれている可能性が否定できぬと考えた次第です。
「私は現在’人種のるつぼ’に住んでいます。」というようには使われないと思うのです。

「たまり場」というのはＳｔａｒWars エピソード４のモスアイスリー宇宙港のそばの居酒屋的な場所として、あるcontextにおいてはぴったりしているように思われました。
『ダウンタウン』（←これは私もかなり違うとは思ったのですが）　とか、『スラム街』（←これはちょっと極端か）、とかいう言葉も、ある文脈においては当てはまるし、それ以外の文脈では当てはまらない、
つまり、スピーカーが想起している状況次第で当てはまったり当てはまらなかったりすると思ったのです。いかがでしょう？　：）


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## Flaminius

First off, the racial structure of Japan is very different from that of France.  If you are, *graz71*, looking for a Japanese word to describe the French reality, you have to be aware that no words are sufficient without some more qualification.

I myself like the word _shitamachi. _ It does not necessarily mean that there live a lot of immigrants but it is a good candidate for your need.  Let me explain what it means in the Japanese context.

The word has a long history and means a lot of things such as "'the' old towns along Sumida River in Tokyo" (*spu001* #10) and a few areas in Osaka, but I think we can use it to mean a working class area populated by factory workers and small business owners and their staff.  I am basing my image of a _shitamachi_ on the movie _Shitamachi-no Taiyō_ ([The Sun of Shitamachi]).  Oh, another example of the _shitamachi_ in this sense is Ōta-ku.  Although it is on the other side of Tokyo from the Sumida, people in Ōta call their area a _shitamachi_ (as evidenced in a copy 下町ボブスレー) nowadays. Ōta is known for factories, small businesses, workers, and all sorts of urban blight that one can see in the movie (the locale of the movie is someone on the Sumida). 

In the 21st-century Tokyo, _shitamachi's_ have higher rate of foreigners in the population, but people do not always associate the word with foreigners.

_Hankagai_, 繁華街, is an area in the city centre with entertainments, it's a lively night life scene.  Better-known ones such as Kabukichō in Tokyo and Sakae in Nagoya have presence of different ethnic groups.  But again, foreigners are not a necessary component for an area to be called _hankagai_.

In conclusion, neither of the words automatically mean you see a lot of foreigners.  You will have to qualify the nouns by phrases such as 外国人が多く住む (where many foreigners live).  E.g., 外国人が多く住む繁華街


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## graz71

spu001 said:


> De rien, those areas are called '団地(danchi)' and apartments for people with low-income are called '公営住宅(kōei jūtaku).'
> Just for the record, when you use the word '団地' it reminds listeners of rows of buildings like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nchi_003,_Soka,_Saitama_prefecture,_Japan.JPG
> 
> Spu



Thanks


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## graz71

@SoLaTiDoberman
I'm sure your answer is very interesting but since I don't master Japanese reading fluently, your answer is lost to me and to other readers unless you'd like to translate it.


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## spu001

> しかし私には、ＯＰのリクエストにぴったりした言葉はこれまでには出ていないと思います。
> 私には、『たまり場』が違うのと同じ程度以上に『繁華街』や『人種のるつぼ』も違うと思います。


If we need to describe areas that the OP explained in a word or two I think '人種のるつぼ' is a vivid expression. I'll get around to explaining this.



> 『繁華街』は、良い意味にも使われ、『（白人からみた場合の）中国人、ヒスパニック系、アフリカ系などの低所得層のヒト達がメインにいる場所』を指すとは思えません。
> 『繁華街』が歌舞伎町を指して使われているのであれば、確かにぴったりかもしれませんが、『この町は駅前からしてさびれていますね。どこか繁華街は駅前と離れた別の場所にあるんですかね。』などと旅行者が質問している場合など、その旅行者は、風俗などのいかがわしい場所を求めて質問したり、スラム街みたいな場所を求めて質問しているのではないことはほぼ明白と思うんです。『繁華街』とはその町で最もにぎやかな場所であって、高所得層のヒトがいることもあると思うんですよ。


I concur, this is a good explanation, the OP wants to describe 'an area where you can find mainly low-working class people...'



> 『人種のるつぼ』は、『ニューヨークは人種のるつぼ』といった感じで使われる単語であり、『繁華街』『スラム街』『たまり場』のような場所を示す言葉として使われるのではなく、ある場所の形容詞として使われる言葉である、という点で、ＯＰのリクエストとはずれている可能性が否定できぬと考えた次第です。
> 「私は現在’人種のるつぼ’に住んでいます。」というようには使われないと思うのです。


We should see the nuts and bolts of the OP's idea, and I think it's "In Paris some district like mine have bad reputation because of social housing and low-class people like Africans, Algerians, Chinese... mainly immigrants but that's what make this area lively." My wife is French, though she rues over conflicts between different ethnic groups out there, she proudly admits that those conflicts makes the city so lively at the same time, the more the merrier, I thought that to answer the OP's question I had to include this aspect in a word or two, so I recommended the expression '人種のるつぼ.' It's interesting to know that you think we should offer only nouns and we can't use the expression in the sentence "私は現在’人種のるつぼ’に住んでいます," but to my ears, it sounds ok, I found a news article including the expression http://jp.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324689604578439772664167966
Also, there's a word '人種のサラダボウル' but I think it's little known, I wanted to recommend a common expression.



> 「たまり場」というのはＳｔａｒWars エピソード４のモスアイスリー宇宙港のそばの居酒屋的な場所として、あるcontextにおいてはぴったりしているように思われました。


Yes, in that context it sounds good but, still it refers to a building not a district and doesn't have the ability to describe the most important aspects I wrote above.


> 『ダウンタウン』（←これは私もかなり違うとは思ったのですが）　とか、『スラム街』（←これはちょっと極端か）、とかいう言葉も、ある文脈においては当てはまるし、それ以外の文脈では当てはまらない、
> つまり、スピーカーが想起している状況次第で当てはまったり当てはまらなかったりすると思ったのです。


'Slum' reminds you of stark poverty, I don't think there're so many cases we can use this word to describe non-slum areas even in a figurative sense, for the same reason, 'shitamachi' is not a right word to describe non-shitamachi areas, people remember towns they saw in shitamachi movies and maybe music in those movies could start to sound in their heads when hearing the word.



> The word has a long history and means a lot of things such as "'the' old towns along Sumida River in Tokyo" (*spu001* #10) and a few areas in Osaka, but I think we can use it to mean a working class area populated by factory workers and small business owners and their staff. I am basing my image of a _shitamachi_ on the movie _Shitamachi-no Taiyō_ ([The Sun of Shitamachi]). Oh, another example of the _shitamachi_ in this sense is Ōta-ku. Although it is on the other side of Tokyo from the Sumida, people in Ōta call their area a _shitamachi_ (as evidenced in a copy 下町ボブスレー) nowadays. Ōta is known for factories, small businesses, workers, and all sorts of urban blight that one can see in the movie (the locale of the movie is someone on the Sumida).


As I wrote in a reply for SLTD, the word 'shitamachi' is too good to use in a figurative sense since 'shitamachi' reminds you of particular images. As you wrote "I am basing my image of a _shitamachi_ on the movie _Shitamachi-no Taiyō_" most of Japanese people have their own 'shitamachi' memories, some people tasted that in movies, some people experienced it in person. I recollect my own shitamachi memories few minutes after I wrote my last post and I edited it and added just one word, 'the,' to it because I thought with a definite article Japanese readers easily remember shitamachi scenes, not to invoke an off-topic discussion like there are other shitamachi areas.



> In the 21st-century Tokyo, _shitamachi's_ have higher rate of foreigners in the population, but people do not always associate the word with foreigners.
> _Hankagai_, 繁華街, is an area in the city centre with entertainments, it's a lively night life scene. Better-known ones such as Kabukichō in Tokyo and Sakae in Nagoya have presence of different ethnic groups. But again, foreigners are not a necessary component for an area to be called _hankagai_.


This is another reason why I think it's not a right word for the OP's idea.



> In conclusion, neither of the words automatically mean you see a lot of foreigners. You will have to qualify the nouns by phrases such as 外国人が多く住む (where many foreigners live). E.g., 外国人が多く住む繁華街


I think this is not a right phrase, too since it doesn't contain an idea of ethnic conflicts and '繁華街' doesn't go well to express this idea as SLTD explained.
Also, as Graz71 quoted my post again, we need to contain that point(income) to express the idea.

Spu


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## graz71

Flaminius, as always thanks for your thorough explanation which is definitely very interesting.

I was well aware of the country and linguistic differences hence why I really needed a native insight. The problem with translation is always trying to find accurate words for different realities.

If France/Paris had to relate to another country to explain my reality, I would have quoted London or New-York. But 下町 or even 人種の坩堝 might fit the bill after looking into the dictionary.

Thanks again!


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## graz71

"My wife is French, though she rues over conflicts between different ethnic groups out there, she proudly admits that those conflicts makes the city so lively at the same time, the more the merrier, I thought that to answer the OP's question I had to include this aspect in a word or two, so I recommended the expression '人種のるつぼ."

Spu, thanks for this very interesting post and I definitely agree with your wife.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

吹き溜まり（ふきだまり） is the place where the socially lost and defeated would gather together.
It might be related to this thread a little bit from a certain point of view, but it' definitely not the candidate of your context. It has a strong negative connotation in it.


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## karlalou

SoLaTiDoberman said:


> 『人種のるつぼ』は、『ニューヨークは人種のるつぼ』といった感じで使われる単語であり、『繁華街』『スラム街』『たまり場』のような場所を示す言葉として使われるのではなく、ある場所の形容詞として使われる言葉である



I just totally agree with this comment, and 人種のるつぼ is the best word to be used to explain the area (_hope it's still not too late to edit here.._) further.


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## spu001

> 吹き溜まり（ふきだまり） is the place where the socially lost and defeated would gather together.
> It might be related to this thread a little bit from a certain point of view, but it' definitely not the candidate of your context. It has a strong negative connotation in it.


Um, 吹き溜まり(fukidamari) reminds us of a 'skid row' where social outcasts sleep on the side walks or a group that consists of ostracized and rejected people from somewhere else, so that's far from it.



> I just totally agree with this comment, and 人種のるつぼ is the best word to be used to explain the area (_hope it's still not too late to edit here.._) further.


If you two think we have to pick up, though I don't think this way, only nouns, and expressions and adjectives shouldn't be offered, here's another runner on the course '移民街(imingai).' But I think '人種のるつぼ' hits the bull's eye as for the OP's idea.



> Spu, thanks for this very interesting post and I definitely agree with your wife.


De rien, Graz, vive la France!


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## karlalou

I just think that it's strange to say 「この市のどこそこに人種のるつぼがあります」.
I would say「この市のどこそこに繁華街がありますが、まったくの人種のるつぼとなっています」.
Or something like「私の住むエリアは人種のるつぼです」. But I don't feel very comfortable with 「私は人種のるつぼに住んでいます」


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## spu001

Hi, Karlalou,
Well, I don't get the point why you want to put only nouns on the table. Without being such a little bit long sentence, "私の住んでいるところは人種のるつぼです。" will do.
Plus, if you say "この市のどこそこに繁華街がありますが、まったくの人種のるつぼとなっています。" listners think you point out a down town crowded with a variety of ethnic groups, not a residential area.

Spu


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## karlalou

spu001 said:


> to put only nouns on the table


I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by this. I have no problem adding adjectives if you want.


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## spu001

> I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by this.


That's an expression, put sth on the table. I just wonder why you want to introduce only nouns and don't think that expressions and adjectives and other parts of speech can be offered.
Speaking of which, '人種のるつぼ' is not an adjective, it's an expression, too.



> I have no problem adding adjectives if you want.


Um, I don't think it's a matter of what we want to talk about when answering questions, rather, I do think that it's up to what OPs want to know.

Regards
Spu


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## karlalou

Yes, I was wondering since 人種のるつぼ is also a noun.

But the conventional way of usage doesn't use it as a name of an area. Since the original poster's request is a name for the area, I think it's not very suitable though it's the most needed word to add to further explain the area.

We just don't say 市の南側に商店街と人種のるつぼがあります。


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## spu001

> But the conventional way of usage doesn't use it as a name of an area. Since the original poster's request is a name for the area, I think it's not very suitable though it's the most needed word to add to further explain the area.


Thank you for explaining why you wanted to pick up only "nouns(to point out an area)," I see your standpoint now, you wanted to introduce nouns that can be used in the nominative and accusative case and, though '人種のるつぼ' is also a noun and I don't think its usage to point out an area is not conventional, you didn't bet on words or expressions like predicate nominatives. If you were asked like "In Japanese, how can I say a noun 'downtown' in Japanese" your '繁華街' would be a front runner as he/she would want only Japanese counterpart of that word, but Graz71 asked "How could I say in Japanese "a popular area" meaning an area where...", so I recommended that. It's all up to OPs how they use words contributors recommend, in this case, Graz71's idea doesn't need sentence structures like "市の南側に商店街と人種のるつぼがあります。" or "この市のどこそこに人種のるつぼがあります。", instead, ones like "私の住んでいるところは人種のるつぼです。" or "xxx街(人種の坩堝と訪れた人たちは言います)に住んでもう１０年になります。" could be used to express the OP's idea.

Spu


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