# FR: sous l'emprise de



## timboleicester

"Des analyses doivent encore être menées pour déterminer si le conducteur du véhicule des victimes était sous l'emprise *de l'alcool* ou *de stupéfiants."*

In the above passage I am concerned that I seem ot be going backwards in my understanding of when to use "de" or "de l' du etc."

Etre sous l'emprise de quelque chose.......I guess is the correct form so why is one "*de l'*alcool" and the other "*de* stupefiants?" Is the passage just wrong?

Please help!


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## Maître Capello

No, the passage is correct.

_être sous l'emprise de *l'*alcool_
_être sous l'emprise de *la* cocaïne
__être sous l'emprise de *la* colère_
_être sous l'emprise de stupéfiants_ (des stupéfiants, mais on ne sait pas lesquels → pas d'article défini)


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## timboleicester

Maître Capello said:


> No, the passage is correct.
> 
> _être sous l'emprise de *l'*alcool_
> _être sous l'emprise de *la* cocaïne_
> _être sous l'emprise de *la* colère_
> _être sous l'emprise de stupéfiants_ (des stupéfiants, mais on ne sait pas lesquels → pas d'article défini)


 
OK but why not "....sous l'emprise des stupéfiants" or "d'alcool" I still don't get it. If the choice is made becasue we don't know which "drugs" then why not apply the same logic to "alcool" after all there are many types?


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## Hatchet

> I guess is the correct form so why is one "*de l'*alcool" and the other "*de* stupefiants?" Is the passage just wrong?


I don't really get what your actual concern is about ?
 What would you have said instead of "*de l'*alcool" et "*de* stupefiants?" ?


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## timboleicester

Hatchet said:


> I don't really get what your actual concern is about ?
> What would you have said instead of "*de l'*alcool" et "*de* stupefiants?" ?


 
Sorry I was a tad unclear...

I would have said "des stupéfiants" or "d'alcool" it seems to me that there are two distinct forms being used at the same time and I can't see a grammatical difference...yet.


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## Hatchet

Je pense que la distinction passe assez fidèlement  dans la traduction , par comparaison à l'anglais ?

emprise de l'alcool=under the influence of alcohol
emprise d'alcool= under alcoholic influence 

emprise des stupéfiants= of the narcotics
emprise de stupéfiants= of narcotics


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## timboleicester

Hatchet said:


> Je pense que la distinction passe assez fidèlement dans la traduction , par comparaison à l'anglais ?
> 
> emprise de l'alcool=under the influence of alcohol
> emprise d'alcool= under alcoholic influence
> 
> emprise des stupéfiants= of the narcotics
> emprise de stupéfiants= of narcotics





The English, although grammatical, isn't used in this way. 

It's the use of the def. article with "alcool" and not with "stupéfiants" that troubles me. 

I guess I am thinking that "sous l'emprise de" should be used in the same way as "beaucoup de"

i.e. a lot of alcohol = beaucoup d'alcool
a lot of narcotics = beaucoup de stupéfians

I think I will will have to go and have a brain scan as I am not getting it.


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## Hatchet

Si vous construisez avec "under the influence of", vous obtenez les bonnes constructions, ce sont d'ailleurs bien celles que vous avez cochées comme correctes ci-dessus


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## timboleicester

Hatchet said:


> Si vous construisez avec "under the influence of", vous obtenez les bonnes constructions, ce sont d'ailleurs bien celles que vous avez cochées comme correctes ci-dessus


 
Yes under the influence of alcohol/narcotics this works in English. My worry is that it seems to be different in French or at least the passage quoted. I can't see why it's not "sous l'emprise d'alcoool ou de stupéfiants" why has one retained the definite article and the other not.

de + les = des?

Would this contruction be possible and if so what is the difference?


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## jann

Hello Tim,





timboleicester said:


> If the choice is made becasue we don't know which "drugs" then why not apply the same logic to "alcool" after all there are many types?


That's the error in your logic and the key to your confusion!  

While there may be many different types of alcoholic beverages, there is only one type of alcohol for human consumption:  ethanol.   Exclusive and precise identification triggers use of the definite article (just as it did with "anger" and "cocaine" in MC's examples in post #2)  --> _l'alcool_ (singular definite article).  

On the other hand, there are indeed many different kinds of drugs, each of which is a different chemical substance, and we do not know which ones may be involved here, so an indefinite article is needed --> _des stupéfiants_ (plural indefinite article)

Remember that _de + des = de

__sous l'emprise de + des stupéfiants --> __sous l'emprise de stupéfiants
__sous l'emprise de + l'alcool --> __sous l'emprise de l'alcool_


The comparison with English is not particularly useful because we do not use an article after "under the influence of."


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## timboleicester

Thanks for taking the trouble with the explanation. I am re-reading it for the enjoyment. I think I have a phobia. I remember when at school, the phrase that my teacher always called on me to answer when we got to a certain part in the picture narrative was "il est allé a l'arret d'autobus" Then when my teacher was away we had someone else and when I trotted out my sentence the substitute teacher corrected it to ".... de l'autobus" Or, indeed it might have been the other way round. An audiable gasp went round the class. I have never been the same since...Funny what you remember from ye olde school days!


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## timboleicester

I have been busy with some google enquiries and have come to the conclusion that the use of "de" or "de l'" "du" etc is pretty fluid.

I did a search for the number of instances of "sous l'emprise de/des médicaments" and although the first version is more numerous it isn't that
decisive to make it just a mistake. Both versions are definitely used. So it makes me think that they might mean different things.

Another statistic is 

sous l'emprise de la drogue 15,000 entries
sous l'emprise de drogues 700 entries.

So my question is, I suppose. Are they both right but mean different things?


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## RaeChan

If I were translating this into French from English I'd be confused, I think, but I do get this...

Stupéfiants is just a generic term so if you said "sous l'influence des stupéfiants" you'd have to mean under the influence of some specific narcotics.

I think jann explained it very well.

Des stupéfiants = narcotics
Les stupéfiants = the narcotics

De + des = de
De + les = des

However, with a single noun like alcohol:

De l'alcool = alcohol
L'alcool = the alcohol

De + de l' = De l'
De + l' = De l'

So 'alcohol' retains the article and 'narcotics' doesn't.

The answer to your question is, yes, they are both right but they mean different things. Did you actually read the whole sentence that you found those phrases in? That might have helped.

sous l'emprise de la drogue = under the influence of the drug as in "He was taken to hospital unconscious. We found some cocaine in his pocket and we think he was under the influence of the drug" <- we know that it was cocaine

sous l'emprise de drogues = under the influence of drugs as in "We think he was under the influence of drugs when he attacked his girlfriend" <- we don't know which drugs


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## timboleicester

Yes I read them and I have pasted some below.

"Nadine Poinsot, porte-parole de l’association et mère de Marilou, une enfant tuée après qu’un homme *sous l’emprise de drogue* eut percuté la voiture où elle se trouvait."

Although seeing this passage in the same article does lead me to wonder about just how accurate they are with the French.

"Sur les sept tests urinaires positifs aux Sables d’Olonne, quatre conducteurs ont accepté" de procéder au test salivaire, a déclaré Mme Poinsot, précisant que ces derniers avaient "tous *été* (sic) négatifs".

Tous les citoyens ont le droit de voir leur vie familiale, sociale et professionnelle protégée des accidents, des violences et autres effets négatifs de la toxicomanie. Il faut poursuivre ceux qui conduisent un véhicule *sous l’emprise de la drogue *et ne pas tolérer que des personnes se droguent sur leur lieu de travail. En outre, il convient d’empêcher toute formation de "scènes ouvertes". Les enfants et les adolescents ont le droit de grandir dans un environnement où ils sont protégés de tout contact avec la drogue.


Well there we go then. I can't see the reference to a specific drug in the second passage. Although I think your explanations generally hold true for the examples that I have looked at.


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## Hatchet

> Il faut poursuivre ceux qui conduisent un véhicule *sous l’emprise de la drogue* et ne pas tolérer que des personnes se droguent sur leur lieu de travail.


"la drogue" here is a generic term, just as "l'alcool" or "narcotics" in English



> "Nadine Poinsot, porte-parole de l’association et mère de Marilou, une enfant tuée après qu’un homme *sous l’emprise de drogue* eut percuté la voiture où elle se trouvait."



Bad French, or more likely a typo: they should have said *sous l’emprise de la drogue*
(or :"sous l’emprise de  drogues" if they wanted to be more specific and refer to certain drugs ...)


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## Punky Zoé

Hi

IMHO "sous l'emprise de l'alcool / d'alcool" are both perfectly acceptable; "sous l'emprise de drogue / de la drogue" too.

The matter with "stupéfiants" is that in that acceptation, it is plural not singular, then you can't use a definite article.


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## timboleicester

Punky Zoé said:


> Hi
> 
> IMHO "sous l'emprise de l'alcool / d'alcool" are both perfectly acceptable; "sous l'emprise de drogue / de la drogue" too.
> 
> The matter with "stupéfiants" is that in that acceptation, it is plural not singular, then you can't use a definite article.


 
Yes but you are French I am afraid it's not so easy for me. They well may be acceptable but do they mean the same thing? There's the rub.


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## Maître Capello

Punky Zoé said:


> IMHO "sous l'emprise de l'alcool / d'alcool" are both perfectly acceptable; "sous l'emprise de drogue / de la drogue" too.


The plural _sous l'emprise __de drogue*s*_ is quite common and correct but the singular _sous l'emprise d'alcool/__de drogue_ is not idiomatic at all and even incorrect I think.


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## timboleicester

Maître Capello said:


> The plural _sous l'emprise d'alcool*s*/__de drogue*s*_ is quite common and correct but the singular _sous l'emprise d'alcool/__de drogue_ is not idiomatic at all and even incorrect I think.


 
Would that be confined to a scientific experiment? Under the influence of alcohols?


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## Hatchet

Punky Zoé said:


> IMHO "sous l'emprise de l'alcool / d'alcool" are both perfectly acceptable; "sous l'emprise de drogue / de la drogue" too.


 Ah ? moi je ne pourrais absolument pas dire
  "sous l'emprise d'alcool" et "sous l'emprise de drogue"
 ça sonne faux (enfin pour moi ....)


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## Maître Capello

timboleicester said:


> Would that be confined to a scientific experiment? Under the influence of alcohols?


I made a copy-paste mistake. Please re-read my previous post, which I've edited.

Note that, as Jann mentioned earlier, there is only one type of alcohol, namely ethanol, whereas there are many kinds of drug…


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## Punky Zoé

I'm late, but I can't see why "de drogue" or "d'alcool" may be incorrect .


timboleicester said:


> Yes but you are French
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> I am afraid it's not so easy for me. They well may be acceptable but do they mean the same thing? There's the rub.


De l'alcool / de la drogue are generic — for "l'alcool" it is right, as well explained by Jann, for "la drogue" it is not really true, but it is often used in that way — whereas d'alcool / de drogue means one undefined sort of alcohol / drug.

The question isn't that easy ...


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## Hatchet

Maître Capello said:


> The plural _sous l'emprise __de drogue*s*_ is quite common and correct .


" sous l'emprise d'alcool*s*"  is quite common as well , simply meaning under the influence of different alcoholic drinks



			
				Maître Capello said:
			
		

> Note that, as Jann mentioned earlier, there is only one type of alcohol, namely ethanol, whereas there are many kinds of drug ..


There may be only  one type of alcohol, but there are several kinds of alcoholic drinks, so to me, alcool et drogue just behave the same "grammatical wise"


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## Fred_C

RaeChan said:


> If I were translating this into French from English I'd be confused, I think, but I do get this...
> 
> Stupéfiants is just a generic term so if you said "sous l'influence des stupéfiants" you'd have to mean under the influence of some specific narcotics.
> 
> I think jann explained it very well.
> 
> Des stupéfiants = narcotics
> Les stupéfiants = the narcotics
> 
> De + des = de
> De + les = des
> 
> However, with a single noun like alcohol:
> 
> De l'alcool = alcohol
> L'alcool = the alcohol
> 
> De + de l' = De l'
> De + l' = De l'


Hi, 
pardon me to post so late, but this is slightly wrong.
De + de l' -> d'
I am positive on this one.
son comportement est perturbé par de l'alcool means : Il est sous l'influence d'alcool
Son comportement est perturbé par l'alcool means Il est sous l'influence de l'alcool.


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## Hatchet

Fred_C said:


> son comportement est perturbé par de l'alcool means : Il est sous l'influence d'alcool


 Oui dans ce sens, à la rigueur, on pourrait dire "sous l'emprise d'alcool", mais on fait alors plutôt référence à l'alcool en tant que substance chimique, et non plus à son acception ordinaire de boisson alcoolique ...


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## Maître Capello

Hatchet said:


> " sous l'emprise d'alcool*s*"  is quite common as well , simply meaning under the influence of different alcoholic drinks


Let me disagree… _Sous l'emprise d'alcool*s*_ sounds terribly unidiomatic to me! The different drinks contain the exact same ethanol molecule and hence have the exact same effect on the human body: drunkenness. On the other hand the influence of say LSD is different from that of cocaine… Hence _sous l'emprise de drogue*s*_ makes sense whereas _sous l'emprise d'alcool*s*_ does not. (Anyway, note that I'm not saying the latter is incorrect; I'm just saying it is *not* idiomatic…)


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## Hatchet

Maître Capello said:


> Let me disagree… _Sous l'emprise d'alcool*s*_ sounds terribly unidiomatic to me!


 
 De quelqu'un qu'on soupçonnerait avoir bu du whiskey, de la vodka , du gin et peut-être d'autres alcools encore, on pourrait dire "cet homme se trouvait sous l'emprise d'alcools" - mais il est vrai que dans ce cas, on précisera plutôt "sous l'emprise de plusieurs alcools"

 Et c'est peut-être moins courant que " sous l'emprise de drogues" effectivement

 Mais je pense que ces expressions "sous l'emprise d'alcool" "sous l'emprise d'alcools" se retrouvent couramment dans la prose judiciaire , mais que sorties du contexte judiciaire, elles "passent" mal dans le langage courant ...


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