# Spelling with or without י (yod)



## sawyeric1

[Moderator note: This thread was split from original thread.]

And sometimes there is no yod where it seems like there should be one - like תזמורת instead of תיזמורת


----------



## Drink

The "i" sound is not always represented by a yud.


----------



## sawyeric1

Can anyone explain why the yod is sometimes left out for identical sounds? Like תיזהר / תזמורת?


----------



## Drink

The general rule is the yud is added in open syllables. But there are many exceptions.


----------



## aavichai

i see this thread is jumping from "full script" to missing script"
כתיב מלא - כתיב חסר

the תזמורת and תזהר are basically without Yod (when it is Missing script)  - and the sylibal is closed in both of them

in the "full script" - the Yod appears when there is not Silent Sheva to close the sylibal

so in the word תיזהר - even though the sylibal os closed (by a Dagesh in the letter Z) there is no silent sheva - so the Yod comes to represent the vowel /i/

in תזמורת - the Sylibal is closed by a silent sheva - and so there is no need for the Yod to represent the /i/ vowel


----------



## utopia

תזמורת is always without yod, because there is a shva nah under the zain.

But in תיזהר, only when it is with nikkud, is there no yod. 

According to the syllable division laws, תיזהר is divided like this:

TIZ ZA HER.

The first syllable is closed by a shva nah.


----------



## aavichai

Utopia

the תזהר is not closed by a silent Sheva, but with a Dagesh

the fact that you break the Dagesh into two consanant, is not relevant

when the word is facing the rules of the Yod in a non-niqqud script, then it should be devided to two groups: Dagesh, and Silent Sheva, as it represented in the Niqqud script

therefore, the תזהר when it gat a Dagesh get the Yod
and the תזמורת doesn't get the Yod

there's no point to going back in time for those rules.


----------



## utopia

I was only demonstrating the way Hebrew syllables were divided in such cases.

תיזהר has a different division that it looks - the fact that the sound is TIZAHER can be confusing.

on the one hand it has a yod, something that might make people think that it's an open syllable, but the dagesh (which comes from full assimilation of N to Z) closes it.

So in fact there is a yod in a closed syllable.


----------



## aavichai

I agree 
and that is what i wrote in my first comment here

"the Yod appears when there is not Silent Sheva to close the sylibal"
(i meant here when the sylibal is closed - but not with a silent Sheva)


----------



## sawyeric1

Why does הראיתי - "I showed" have a yod?


----------



## Drink

Yud often represents a tzere sound (e.g. בית ספר, לילות, ריק, להיניק, שריפה, שיער, בין, etc.). I can give you more historical background of this particular word if you want, but that's the basic reason.


----------



## sawyeric1

Usually yod makes it 'ei', but there it is 'ɛ'


----------



## Drink

sawyeric1 said:


> Usually yod makes it 'ei', but there it is 'ɛ'



That's just the modern pronunciation.


----------



## utopia

Drink said:


> Yud often represents a tzere sound (e.g. בית ספר, לילות, ריק, להיניק, שריפה, שיער, בין, etc.). I can give you more historical background of this particular word if you want, but that's the basic reason.




Actually in שרפה there is no yod, according to the Academy of the Hebrew Language. And it should be noted that in שיער you should write a yod only when the word is not in the construct form.

As for להיניק - the first YOD is because the root is Y-N-Q. It's manifested in HIFIL by a YOD in all forms.


----------



## Drink

utopia said:


> Actually in שרפה there is no yod, according to the Academy of the Hebrew Language. And it should be noted that in שיער you should write a yod only when the word is not in the construct form.



I thought the Academy says both שרפה and שריפה are acceptable.



utopia said:


> As for להיניק - the first YOD is because the root is Y-N-Q. It's manifested in HIFIL by a YOD in all forms.



That's why it's a great example, because technically the yud in הראיתי is also part of the root R-’-Y.


----------

