# Remerciement pour faveur obtenue



## fantazya

Dzięki za łaski udzielone

Je crois que la traduction est bonne... votre avis? 

Merci !


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## Fairlight

If the person you wish to thank is God, then I suppose the translation is quite accurate. If, however, the person is a human being, then I'd say "Podziękowanie za wyświadczoną przysługę" would seem a much better equivalent.


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## fantazya

The person is a saint

Thank you


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## Ben Jamin

fantazya said:


> The person is a saint
> 
> Thank you


Then it is correct!


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## Fairlight

Yes, it is correct, because we obtain grace not from a saint but from God through the intercession of the particular saint, so in this case we are, in a way, addressing God (*thanking* God for the grace obtained through the intercession of a saint). But this, I suppose, is more a theological question than a linguistic one.


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## Ben Jamin

Fairlight said:


> Yes, it is correct, because we obtain grace not from a saint but from God through the intercession of the particular saint, so in this case we are, in a way, addressing God (*thanking* God for the grace obtained through the intercession of a saint). But this, I suppose, is more a theological question than a linguistic one.



Using of the wording "Dzięki za łaski udzielone" is by no means restricted to the religious sphere, and by no means only to thanksgiving to God.
This is an expression obsolete in colloquial usage, but could be easily used in a litterary historical or fantasy setting, when addressing a person of a very high standing like a king, emperor, High Priest or Grand Master of something.


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## Fairlight

Ben Jamin said:


> Using of the wording "Dzięki za łaski udzielone" is by no means restricted to the religious sphere, and by no means only to thanksgiving to God.
> This is an expression obsolete in colloquial usage, but could be easily used in a litterary historical or fantasy setting, when addressing a person of a very high standing like a king, emperor, High Priest or Grand Master of something.



In such case I would rather say "dzięki za doznane łaski" (maybe that would even be a better translation of *obtenue--otrzymane*). For some reason "łaski udzielone" for me has a specifically religious connotation, but perhaps you're right. I would also like to point out that in the old days people that you mentioned (kings, emperors, high priests etc.) were either directly connected with religious cult of some sort (priests), or considered annointed by God (kings, emperors), and their ascension to throne was very often a religious ceremony. However, as you said, in modern colloquial Polish, such expression is definitely obsolete, and outside religious context might seem very strange (or even give the impression of joking/mocking).


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## fantazya

Thank you for the precisions.


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## jasio

Is the religious context of this thread similar to your other threads? If this is the case, I would propose to reconsider the translation.

I do not speak French myself, but if the phrase is a part of a prayer (or a text of a similar nature), I would rather say "Dziękuję za doznane łaski" (or "Dziękujemy za doznane łaski" if its to be read/spoken on behalf of a group), meaning 'I/we thank for the graces received'. If it's a title of a prayer (or a text of a similar nature), a headline, a subheading, etc., "Podziękowanie za doznane łaski" would be more appropriate. For my ear 'dzięki' sounds too colloquial, I use this word when my buddy passes me a glass of beer, but I do not even use it to my boss, not even mentioning the saint. 

I would also dare to add a general remark to all your posts: if the texts are intended to be read together, or as a part of one work, I would propose that they are consulted with a native speaker as a whole, to make sure they are in right harmony: they form a special context, and since we do not have an overall picture, our comments may be obsolete, null and void. Also, since a religious context is typically very intimate, it might be reasonable that the checker is of the same denomination as the intended audience, especially if they are not catholics. Of course, one should not exaggerate - a pilgrim or a tourist is usually happy enough to read in his/her own language that he will forgive language lapses  but if it's possible to make the extra step to demonstrate sensitivity, why not do it?


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> "Podziękowanie za [1]*doznane *łaski" would be more appropriate. [2]*For my ear  'dzięki' sounds too colloquial*, I use this word when my buddy passes me a glass of beer, but I do not even use it to my boss, not even mentioning the saint.




I don't agree with those two statements:

1."Doznane" (perceived) is absolutely not better than "udzielone" (granted).
You thank for the *deed of the giver*, not for your *own perception* of getting something.
In my opinion it is a worse choice, even if the two words are used interchangeably in the colloquial langauge.

2. You are either not a churchgoer, or, if you are, you don't listen carefully. "Dzięki Ci Boże" occurs in most prayers in the Catholic Church, in church songs and in religious literature. The fact that the same expression has been used in the colloquial langauge, and maybe by some young people perceived as sloppy, doesn't change the fact that "Dzięki" remains a very solemn word in the religious context at the same time.


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## jasio

Ben Jamin said:


> 1."Doznane" (perceived) is absolutely not better than "udzielone" (granted).
> You thank for the *deed of the giver*, not for your *own perception* of getting something.
> In my opinion it is a worse choice, even if the two words are used interchangeably in the colloquial langauge.



A matter of a personal taste, perhaps. Or a type of sensitivity. Or perhaps it's just a matter of a mere frequency. Google finds "doznane łaski" ten times more often than "udzielone łaski". A quick search in the national text corpus shows the same proportion. It's a vivid language, not a math.



Ben Jamin said:


> "Dzięki Ci Boże" occurs in most prayers in the Catholic  Church, in church songs and in religious literature. The fact that the  same expression has been used in the colloquial langauge, and maybe by  some young people perceived as sloppy, doesn't change the fact that  "Dzięki" remains a very solemn word in the religious context at the same  time.



That's why I suggested sharing a wider context in the first place. 

Prayers, songs (whether religious or secular), poetry, etc. tend to use the language registers other than a natural spoken or written language (let's not call it "prose" though ). "Dzięki" is short and fits well where a regular rhythm has to be maintained, but for *my* ears at least, it does not necessarily fit in a longer, discrete phrase, where it sounds just negligent. Perhaps even for the very same reason: because it's short. Too short. "_Dzięki ci składamy za doznane/udzielone łaski_" sound much more better (and even more solemn than '_Dziękujemy za..._') although it includes the very same word, doesn't it?


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> A matter of a personal taste, perhaps. Or a type of sensitivity. Or perhaps it's just a matter of a mere frequency. Google finds "doznane łaski" ten times more often than "udzielone łaski". A quick search in the national text corpus shows the same proportion. It's a vivid language, not a math.



I think that frequencey does not matter here as much as the intention expressed in the original text. "Udzielone" concentrates on the giver, while "doznane" on the receiver. The choice is up to the author of the original text. 

For me "doznane" can be a better choice in a sentence like "„Jestem mu wdzięczny za doznane łaski." This sentence stresses the receiver.
The most common context for "doznane" is, however, "Zemszczę się za doznane krzywdy."



jasio said:


> Prayers, songs (whether religious or secular), poetry, etc. tend to use the language registers other than a natural spoken or written language (let's not call it "prose" though ). "*Dzięki" is short and fits well where a regular rhythm has to be maintained, but for my ears at least, it does not necessarily fit in a longer, discrete phrase, where it sounds just negligent. *Perhaps even for the very same reason: because it's short. Too short. "_Dzięki ci składamy za doznane/udzielone łaski_" sound much more better (and even more solemn than '_Dziękujemy za..._') although it includes the very same word, doesn't it?



The sentence in bold letters must express your own personal taste, strongly influenced by a slangy colloquial language. "Dzięki" is the original word (a German loan) in the series of related words (dziękować, podziękowanie), and has been used since times immemorial as a solemn and serious word, dominating in the religious context over other related words. One must see the language as a whole, not only through the perspective of a context of the colloquial langauge. The opinion that  "Dzięki" may sound negligent in "a longer discrete (?) phrase" in a religious context is very exotic to me.


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## fantazya

If it can help. In english it is "Acknowledgements for favor granted" ... instead of "thanks", I will take "Acknowledgements" for the religious context


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## NotNow

fantazya said:


> If it can help. In english it is "Acknowledgements for favor granted" ... instead of "thanks", I will take "Acknowledgements" for the religious context



It sounds awkward, especially in a religious context.    I suggest _gratitude for favors granted_.


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## fantazya

Oh yes,,, you're right NotNow, thank you... 

So, based on that english phrase: _gratitude for favors granted_ what would be the best polish traduction? wdzięczność za łaski udzielone


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## NotNow

No, but it's close enough,  A literal translation, I think, would be _gratitude for graces granted_.  We may be splitting hairs here because both sentences have the same meaning more or less.


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## Ben Jamin

fantazya said:


> Oh yes,,, you're right NotNow, thank you...
> 
> So, based on that english phrase: _gratitude for favors granted_ what would be the best polish traduction? wdzięczność za łaski udzielone


There is no need to seek more alternatives. *Dzięki za łaski udzielone* IS the best alternative for a religious context. It sounds solemn and old fashioned, and is typical of the language of religious texts and prayers. *wdzięczność za łaski udzielone* is not the correct translation of the original French text, as "wdzięczność" means "gratitude" in English (gratitude or reconaissance in French). *Remerciements* translates as "podziękowania" or "dzięki". The former in ordinary and formal speech, the latter in both solemn religious speech and (sic!) in colloquial relaxed speech.


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## Thomas1

Ben Jamin said:


> There is no need to seek more alternatives. *Dzięki za łaski udzielone* IS the best alternative for a religious context. [...]


_Dzięki za udzielone łaski._ would be my choice. The usual order of adjectives in Polish isn't the same as in French, otherwise it sounds incomplete to me.


The  point about using either "udzielone" or "doznane": I think that both  words work equally well in this context. However, since the French word  "obtenir" focuses on the receiver, "doznane" seems to be closer to it in  this respect, (plus, it adds the nuance of experiencing something). An  even closer Polish equivalent of "obtenir" in this context can be  "otrzymać".


@fantazya : je vais le dire en français pour que  nous nous comprenions mieux. À mon avis, toutes les traductions  suivantes marchent en polonais (je vais vous fournir les traductions  littérales pour faciliter leur compréhension) :
_1. Dzięki za udzielone łaski. -- Remerciements pour des faveurs accordées.
2. Dzięki za doznane łaski. -- Remerciements pour des faveurs éprouvées.
3. Dzięki za otrzymane łaski. -- Remerciements pour des faveurs obtenues/reçues.
_

Quant à moi, je dirais probablement : _Dziękuję za otrzymne łaski_ (littéralement : Je (vous) remercie pour les faveurs obtenues) ou, s'il s'agit de plusieurs personnes, _Dziękujęmy za otrzymane łaski_ (littéralement : Nous (vous) remercions pour les faveurs obtenues). C'est un choix individuel.


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