# How to roll "R"?



## Wen24

Hi, can someone help me? I have a big problem of pronouncing "R" in Polish.

I learned rolling "R" by YouTube. And I thought I can roll "R" well after a long training. 
But, when my Polish friends taught me some Polish words with "R", I felt my rolling "R" is different with theirs.
My "R" sounds "DR", I can not find the pronunciation of "D" from their rolling "R".

Then I noticed I learned how to roll "R" in Spanish, not in Polish.
How can I correct my pronunciation?


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## mijaucito

Just do not make "r" so vibrant like in Spanish "Navarro"(double r) or "Rana"(r at the begining of the word) etc
racja istnienia wymowa: jak wymówić racja istnienia w polski

usual "r" is closer to Spanish "r" in the middle of word like pared


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## Ben Jamin

Rolled R occurs in most European languages: all Slavic, Lithuanian and Latvian, Dutch, Flemish, Norwegian and Swedish (they also have guttural or retroflex R), Finnish, Estonian and Hungarian, Italian, Spanish (two kinds of rolled R), in Portuguese (not all written Rs are rolled), Romanian, Greek, Albanian and southern France and some regions of Germany, Switzerland and Austria. It is the dominant pronunciation in Europe.


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## Wen24

But how can I get rid pronounce of D.


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## Wen24

Thank you for adding information of rolling R.


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## jasio

First, without hearing and seeing you speaking, whatever we write, is only a guess based on how you describe your pronunciation - especially that there are many ways to pronounce "r" and many ways to pronounce "d". 



Wen24 said:


> But how can I get rid pronounce of D.


Most of the cases, in Polish "r" is pronounced as a single tap rather than an actual trill. If you pronounce "r" like "dr" and want to pronounce "r" without "d", do not push the tongue against gums and avoid making the tip of the tongue flat like for "d", keep it flexible. Then tap the gums with a tip of the tongue and gradually move the taping point towards the palate - it may happen that you'll find the right spot and a right shape of the tongue.  
But the best way would be to talk to someone who speaks both Chinese and Polish, as he may explain the subtle differences between Chinese and Polish pronunciation much better than me.


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## Wen24

jasio said:


> First, without hearing and seeing you speaking, whatever we write, is only a guess based on how you describe your pronunciation - especially that there are many ways to pronounce "r" and many ways to pronounce "d".


 Thank you. That's true.



jasio said:


> do not push the tongue against gums and avoid making the tip of the tongue flat like for "d", keep it flexible. Then tap the gums with a tip of the tongue and gradually move the taping point towards the palate
> But the best way would be to talk to someone who speaks both Chinese and Polish, as he may explain the subtle differences between Chinese and Polish pronunciation much better than me.


Thank you very much. They are very useful comments.
Dziękuję bardzo.


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## tewlwolow

I don't agree about "single tap" thing. This single "hit" ("flaps") occurs for instance in Norwegian, and Polish speakers can take a long time not to "overdo" it, when they learn the language. In a very relative and subjunctive scale, I'd say it's between (Eastern/Northern) Norwegian and Spanish "r". Single tap is out of question, though.


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## jasio

tewlwolow said:


> This single "hit" ("flaps") occurs for instance in Norwegian, and Polish speakers can take a long time not to "overdo" it, when they learn the language. In a very relative and subjunctive scale, I'd say it's between (Eastern/Northern) Norwegian and Spanish "r".


Specific pronunciation depends on many factors, not only on the number of flaps. I heard some recordings, and indeed Norwegian "r" sounds like next to nothing. But I have an impression that the difference does not result from the number of flaps only, but also from a strength of the flap, specific shape of the tongue, specific place of flapping etc.



tewlwolow said:


> Single tap is out of question, though.


In Polish "R" is pronounced in different ways, with varying duration and a number of flaps depending on factors including neighbouring phones, dialect, speed, even the speaker's emotions. Just compare how you pronounce the k-word as a regular word and when you want to express your anger. In Polish they are all allophones though.

Wikipedia is not a scientific source, but it says:

Głoska drżąca dziąsłowa [*r*] ma 1-3 uderzeń (Spółgłoska drżąca dziąsłowa – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia)
W języku polskim, w mniej starannej wymowie, często w ten sposób realizowany jest fonem [r] (Spółgłoska uderzeniowa dziąsłowa – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia)
/r/ is most often a tap [ɾ] in fast speech (Polish phonology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), quoting Rocławski, Bronisław (1976), _Zarys fonologii, fonetyki, fonotaktyki i fonostatystyki współczesnego języka polskiego_ [_Outline of phonology, phonetics, phonotactics and phonostatistics of the contemporary Polish language_] (in Polish), Wydawnictwo Uczelniane Uniwersytetu Gdańskiego
So you're just plain wrong. Single tap is a perfectly legitimate variant of producing 'R' in Polish, even if in some circumstances it is considered somewhat careless - and it's rather typical in a faster speech.

Most of the Poles can produce this sound continuously, thus imitating a running car engine or an angry dog (which is a good exercise, btw). But in natural situations it's typically limited to just one, perhaps two flaps. So if OP manages to pronounce more flaps - great. But if he won't - it's no problem at all.


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## tewlwolow

Oh come on, we're not talking about allophones or variants! We're talking about _phonology_, not _phonetics_ as it is. Try to say to some native Polish speaker that their "r" is_ supposed_ to be a flap in _some_ contexts, do you really think they are able to even discern the difference? Well from my experience, they aren't at all able to consciously produce a flap on the fly. And yes, it was what they were supposed to do to get closer to Norwegian "r" - just use the Polish one with a single flap - the phonetical context was the same. So... 

Yes of course it would be great to go even with a single flap (I speak native Polish and use the guttural "r", so you'd be better than me! ), but I think it's harder to strive for one flap than an actual trill. That said, I am definitely no expert of Chinese to Polish phonetic transfers.


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## jasio

tewlwolow said:


> We're talking about _phonology_, not _phonetics_ as it is.


I did not discuss neither phonology nor phonetics. I tried to help the OP.



tewlwolow said:


> Try to say to some native Polish speaker that their "r" is_ supposed_ to be a flap in _some_ contexts, do you really think they are able to even discern the difference?


You claimed:


tewlwolow said:


> Single tap is out of question, though.


I demonstrated that you were wrong. Full stop. If you have something to add on the merit, please do. Otherwise, let's stop wasting time.


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## tewlwolow

Sad you seem to miss the point completely. Yes, I would be completely and utterly wrong to claim that single flap is never used phonetically. Phonemically speaking, though, I was right, for Polish does not employ single flap as a distinctive phoneme, and, as I outlined, it would be less than wise to go for a flap when trying to reach polish /r/; thus my disagreement was rather meritable, I dare to posit. Full stop, as you said! Let us speak of this no further. Though as a sidenote, you reminded me why I give Warsaw a wide berth!

I found a guideline for foreign speakers on Polish pronunciation and it seems to include some handy tips for Chinese speakers as well, though, after quick perusal, I see the "r" issue was not extensively covered. Worth a try anyway: Polish For Foreigners | Language | Polish Pronunciation | Warsaw-life


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## jasio

tewlwolow said:


> Phonemically speaking, though, I was right, for Polish does not employ single flap as a distinctive phoneme


I've never claimed it.


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## Wen24

Thank you for everyone. 
It's today's recording of my rolling R. 
I was trying to say "RA" and "TRUSKAWKA", but I still can hear "D"+"rolling R" from my recording. ORZ  
IMG_2681.MOV


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## Ben Jamin

Hello!
You are on a right way. Just keep practising it in normal speech, and your pronunciation will gradually become more similar to that of the native speakers. Just remember two things:
1. Eliminate the guttural (throat) part of your pronunciation (mostly heard in the first part of the recording - single R-sound).
2. Practise more smooth transition between the R and surrounding consonants.


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## Wen24

I got it. Thank you.


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## jasio

Hi Wen,



Wen24 said:


> Thank you for everyone.
> It's today's recording of my rolling R.
> I was trying to say "RA" and "TRUSKAWKA", but I still can hear "D"+"rolling R" from my recording. ORZ
> IMG_2681.MOV


You roll beautifully.
If you didn't write about the initial "d", I would not hear it at all, and actually I had an impression that you had more problems with "truskawka".  Once I learned about the "d", I notice a trace of it indeed, but I would not bother too much. I agree with Ben Jamin that what you need at this stage is actually practising.

I'm not a specialist, but I would suggest exercising your "r" surrounded by vowels (you may skip nasals, as I do not think there are any syllables with a nasal vowel followed by "r", and nasal vowels begin with a reduced mouth vowel anyway):

ara
ere
iri

oro
uru
yry
Then "r" followed by another consonant:

herbata, uzurpator

w korcu, serce, rdza, korczak

horda, artysta

irga, arka
torf, urwis, urwać

ircha

orlęta

ormo, karma
ornitolog, ornament

ursus, marznąć (please note that here r-z is pronounced separately: mar-znąć), 

arszenik, rżysko
And finally, a consonant followed by "r"

brat, broszka, prać, proszę

drań, tran, trok

Franek, frank, wrona, gawron

grób, grab, krab, kra
hrabia, Chrystus, Chryzostom
Wajrak
mrok, mruczeć, mrowisko

UNRRA
sroka, wzrok, zrobić
And when you reach the most difficult, *alrauna* (which is an old name for ginseng, btw), you'll be better than most Poles, who are unable to pronounce this word correctly without an earlier preparation. 
So cheer up and good luck!


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## Wen24

Thank you very much!!!
Especially, the list of training.


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## Ben Jamin

jasio said:


> I'm not a specialist, but I would suggest exercising your "r" surrounded by vowels (you may skip nasals, as I do not think there are any syllables with a nasal vowel followed by "r", and nasal vowels begin with a reduced mouth vowel anyway)


So far as I can see there is no Polish word containing a combination of "ę" followed by an "r".
Please, send me a message if you find any.
By the way, the following consonants never follow after an "ę" either:
f, h, j, l, m, n, w, dż,


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## jasio

jasio said:


> (you may skip nasals, as I do not think there are any syllables with a nasal vowel followed by "r", and nasal vowels begin with a reduced mouth vowel anyway):





Ben Jamin said:


> So far as I can see there is no Polish word containing a combination of "ę" followed by an "r".
> Please, send me a message if you find any.


Did I write something different? 
I prefer to avoid definite statements because whenever I make a mistake, you keep picking on me. :/


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## Ben Jamin

No picking intended! I did not find your statement wrong. I just wanted to strengthen your statement.


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## tewlwolow

@Wen24

It's wonderful! You might revise your "u" in truskawka, though, the Polish one should not be so front - and this would help you with "r" in this very word as well, I think.

You've got a lot of useful advice already, though I would add more training with "tre" "dre" or syllables, as these sounds (/d/ and /t/) sit fairly near "r", so it would be the best initial practice for you 



jasio said:


> Hi Wen,
> [...] _*alrauna*_ (which is an old name for ginseng, btw) [...]



Interesting! Isn't it the old name for the _mandrake_, though? Easy to mix these two!. 

From Wikipedia: *Alrauna*_ (z __niem.__) – korzeń __mandragory lekarskiej__ (Mandragora officinarum) [...] versus *Żeń-szeń właściwy* (Panax ginseng C.A. Meyer), nazywany także ginsengiem lub wszechlekiem [...]._


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## jasio

Ben Jamin said:


> No picking intended! I did not find your statement wrong. I just wanted to strengthen your statement.


Ah, ok in that case. 



tewlwolow said:


> Interesting! Isn't it the old name for the _mandrake_, though? Easy to mix these two!.


Indeed, I must have mix them as well.


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