# Spanish: Why is "vosotros" only used in Spain?



## cawr22

I understand that vosotros is used only in Spain, but I don't understand WHY.  Was it ever used in the Americas, and then fell out of usage?  Did the vosotros form develop in Spain after people began speaking Spanish in the Americas?  Also, is the vosotros form understood in the Americas?  Like if you use it in a sentence, will they know what you're talking about or not?


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## Dlyons

cawr22 said:


> I understand that vosotros is used only in Spain, but I don't understand WHY.  Was it ever used in the Americas, and then fell out of usage?  Did the vosotros form develop in Spain after people began speaking Spanish in the Americas?  Also, is the vosotros form understood in the Americas?  Like if you use it in a sentence, will they know what you're talking about or not?



This will get you started

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=47946


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## blinkgirl

Yes, we know what they are talking about. The "vosotros" form exists, it´s official in Spanish but it is only used in Spain.Instead,  in Latin America we use "ustedes" (or at least here in Argentina). The Spanish from Spain is diffrerent from the Spanish of the remaining countries where this language is spoken, but I really don't know why. I think that when Spanish people (from Spain I mean) conquered "the Americas", they brought their language but then it fell out of usage, as you´ve said.
Hope this will help you understand.


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## *[...mery...]*

Lo que ocurre es que cuando los españoles llegaron a america se usaba ustedes, ya que era algo formal pero muy usado, mientras que vosotros era un palabra muy informal
Ahora en España se sigue usando ustedes pero ha quedado como algo excesivamente formal por lo que no se usa casi nunca mientras que vosotros es una palabra muy usual
es lo que yo creo
¡espero que te sirva!!


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## the last of the Mohicans

Dear Dylon: The explanation from blinkgirl is quite right. El "ustedes" is still used in Seville and some nearby areas of Andalucia and also in the Canary Islands. Before the ships went to America they had to get several permissions and stay for some time in Seville, probably three or more months. So people from other areas of Spain  got involved with the andalousian way of speaking. Sailors in the boats where mainly from Andalucia. At the beginning the majority of boats going to America sailed from Andalucia and that is one of the reasons why southamerican Spanish is much more similar to Andalusian Spanish than to the rest. 

In the west of Andalucia it is very common to use the "ustedes" form.


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## Xinito

From my personal experience while I lived in Cádiz (Andalucía region), it seemed that my Spanish friends would use "vosotros" when they were talking to or about us who were actually present... and would use "ustedes" when speaking of us [Americans] in general.  For example:

Si vosotros vais de marcha a Sevilla, hacedme saber para que os pueda acompañar.
(If you guys are going out to Sevilla, let me know so I can tag along.)

No sé por qué a ustedes les da asco comer morcilla.
(I don't know why you [Americans] are grossed out by blood sausage.)

Remember, this is just from what I can gather with my personal friends...

=)


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## the last of the Mohicans

"¿¿¿ustedes vosotros vais a venir al cine???"
It is a typical way of speaking in Seville, some villages of Córdoba (Priego de Córdoba, etc.), some villages of Málaga (Ronda, Archidona, Antequera ...) etc. and it is also surprising for Spaniards in general. 

There is no intention in the sentence. You may be their close friends but they use those expressions. Maybe young people mix up "vosotros y ustedes" and that is why you have that feeling Xinito about "ustedes les da asco comer morcilla".


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## Xinito

He dicho que mis colegas solían decir "ustedes" cuando hablaban de los estadounidenses en general, yo incluso.  No creo que tenga que ver con "formal" e "informal", por lo que yo sepa... en aquellos casos, por lo menos.


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## aldewi

Somethnig curious is that when referring to Biblical passages, we use "vosotros", i.e. "Jesus dijo: uno de vosotros me traicionará".


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## the last of the Mohicans

No te enfades ... no he dicho nada de "formal o informal". No tiene explicación ... en unas áreas de Andalucía se usa indistintamente el "vosotros y el ustedes" sin más y a todos los que no lo usamos habitualmente, aún siendo andaluces, nos sorprende.  Bueno, mejor dicho, si tiene explicación ... es un uso arcaico del español que en la andalucia occidental se ha mantenido hasta nuestros días. 
¿Recuerdas a los Morancos? Un grupo de cómicos andaluces ... ellos lo usan constantemente porque son del barrio de Triana de Sevilla.

Un saludo


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## the last of the Mohicans

"vosotros" is the normal second person plural and is mainly used in Spanish, any Spanish.

If Jesus would have said "uno de ustedes me traicionará" it would have meant they were not friends, they would not know each other as they did. Remember, they were having dinner together and they were suppose to be quite good friends and worked in the same direction.

Un saludo


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## Juanma Andalucia

Os confirmo que aquí en Cádiz, y en Sevilla, no usamos vosotros: usamos ustedes, tanto formal como informal: la formalidad la da el verbo:
INFORMAL: "ustedes sois"
FORMAL: "ustedes son"
En cambio, para el singular se usa casi siempre el TU, quedando el USTED para formalismos.


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## Xinito

También me di cuenta de eso...  Pero me gustaría saber si el uso de "vosotros" en la biblia se entiende en todos los países hispanoparlantes.  Porque en los eeuu hemos traducido la biblia [muchas veces] al inglés estadounidense y moderno, que hay mucha gente que le cuesta mucho enteder el inglés antiguo.


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## Xinito

the last of the Mohicans said:


> No te enfades ... no he dicho nada de "formal o informal". No tiene explicación ... en unas áreas de Andalucía se usa indistintamente el "vosotros y el ustedes" sin más y a todos los que no lo usamos habitualmente, aún siendo andaluces, nos sorprende. Bueno, mejor dicho, si tiene explicación ... es un uso arcaico del español que en la andalucia occidental se ha mantenido hasta nuestros días.
> ¿Recuerdas a los Morancos? Un grupo de cómicos andaluces ... ellos lo usan constantemente porque son del barrio de Triana de Sevilla.
> 
> Un saludo


 
Quillo, no estoy enfadado para nada.  Sólo estaba diciendo que así me parecía.  ¿Yo qué sé? Aunque nunca he escuchado ambas formas en la misma oración...  Y no sé quién había escrito: "ustedes sois" pero tampoco lo he escuchado nunca.

=)


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## Juanma Andalucia

Pues si vienes por Cadiz, la escucharás, ya que la usa todo el mundo aquí. 
Sobre la biblia, pues la verdad es que no sé si será el uso de "vosotros" la causa de que no se entienda muy bien...


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## cawr22

Gracias por la ayuda.


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## PACOALADROQUE

Xinito said:


> From my personal experience while I lived in Cádiz (Andalucía region), it seemed that my Spanish friends would use "vosotros" when they were talking to or about us who were actually present... and would use "ustedes" when speaking of us [Americans] in general. For example:
> 
> Si vosotros vais de marcha a Sevilla, hacedme*lo* saber para que os pueda acompañar.
> (If you guys are going out to Sevilla, let me know so I can tag along.)
> 
> No sé por qué a ustedes les da asco comer morcilla.
> (I don't know why you [Americans] are grossed out by blood sausage.)
> 
> Remember, this is just from what I can gather with my personal friends...
> 
> =)


Un retoque.
Saludos


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## Youngfun

Mi amiga mexicana siempre pensaba que "vosotros" era sinónimo de "vós" usado en Argentina y otros paises latino-americanos (no recuerdo quales), entonces pensaba que fuese singular y le usaba como "tu".
Despues ella fue muy sorpresa cuando yo le dici que es plural y significa "ustedes".

En America latina el único país donde usan "vosotros" es... Brasil 
Porque allí ellos aprenden el español de España.


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## terredepomme

It's funny how Portuguese went the other way and "tu" dropped out in Brazil.


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## killerbee256

terredepomme said:


> It's funny how Portuguese went the other way and "tu" dropped out in Brazil.


Not all dialects, southern brazilian still uses "tu." Interestingly portuguese also dropped use of it's cognate to "vosotros," "vós."


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## Fericire

In my opinion, just like in Brazilian Portuguese (and in other Portuguese dialects), people used to say "vossa mercê" (idk its equivalent in Spanish, maybe "vuestra merced") to show respect, but it was already the role of "vós" (vosotros). So it (usted) kinda replaced vós/vosotros, and then "vossa mercê" started to evolute, until it became "você/vocês" (usted/ustedes).

Edit: while writing this post, I searched for the etymology of "você" (what replaced "vós", vosotros), and I found some very nice information about it.
Unfortunately, it is in Portuguese. Here is the link: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Você


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## merquiades

Ved este hilo:  ustedes / vosotros


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## Angelo di fuoco

Youngfun said:


> Mi amiga mexicana siempre pensaba que "vosotros" era sinónimo de "vós" usado en Argentina y otros paises latino-americanos (no recuerdo quales), entonces pensaba que fuese era singular y le se usaba como "tu".
> Despues ella fue muy sorpresa estuvo muy sorprendida (mejor: se sorprendió / se maravilló mucho /se tomó una sopresa) cuando yo le dici dije que es plural y significa "ustedes".
> 
> En America latina el único país donde usan "vosotros" es... Brasil
> Porque allí ellos aprenden el español de España.



Perdón por la pedantería, pero me pareció que estas correcciones te serían útiles...


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## Istriano

Youngfun said:


> Mi amiga mexicana siempre pensaba que "vosotros" era sinónimo de "vós" usado en Argentina y otros paises latino-americanos (no recuerdo quales), entonces pensaba que fuese singular y le usaba como "tu".
> Despues ella fue muy sorpresa cuando yo le dici que es plural y significa "ustedes".
> 
> En America latina el único país donde usan "vosotros" es... Brasil
> Porque allí ellos aprenden el español de España.



It is strange Peninsular Portuguese is taught in Brazil (and European Portuguese is taught in Venezuela).
So, when we go to Argentina we are better understood when we use portuñol than European Spanish.
On the other hand, Argentinians learn our Brazilian Portuguese, and not European Portuguese.

Back to the topic, in standard European Spanish _vosotros _is used, but in Portugal_ vós (=vosotros) _has fallen out of use,
so they have a situation _tu ~ vocês _(similar to _tú ~ ustedes_ in Canary Islands, Mexico, Venezuela, Cuba or Chile).
In Costa Rica and Central Colombia the ''Brazilian system'' is used: _usted ~ ustedes (você ~ vocês)_,
both Vd and Vds are informal, just like _você _and _vocês _in Brazil.
In Argentina and Uruguay, the system is _vos ~ Vds.

_I find the vosotros forms difficult to use, so I stick to _ustedes_. 
Furthermore, in no way, _ustedes _can be considered ugly, it's very polite.
Now I use _vos+ustedes_, the most polite form of all, historically.

People should use the forms which are used in their countries. 
In no way imported forms should be forced upon people.
In El Salvador, Costa Rica, Colombia,  tú is being forced as a formal pronoun which is very weird.

If people are using Usted informally (in Costa Rica and Colombia) leave them be.
It's not considered ugly. Why force _tú _on them, saying, they should use tú in educated formal speech.
In formal speech Vd should be used, regardless of country, and not tú, so in El Salvador, Colombia, Costa Rica, media and advertising companies should use Vd, and not tú which is alien to people there.

So you get a weird situation: Vd is informal, and tú formal. 

Going back to vosotros, in Argentina, vosotros forms are no longer taught in schools, and new Biblias use Vds.


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## killerbee256

Istriano said:


> Going back to vosotros, in Argentina, vosotros forms are no longer taught in schools, and new Biblias use Vds.


When I had spanish classes at university in the US, my professors didn't teach vosotros either, thought it is in the text books.


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## merquiades

killerbee256 said:


> When I had spanish classes at university in the US, my professors didn't teach vosotros either, thought it is in the text books.



Unless things have changed recently textbooks in US are usually extremely general to adapt to any teacher and professors teach whatever version of Spanish they want to. Meaning if you changed classes, schools, instructors you changed grammar, accent and vocab.


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## killerbee256

merquiades said:


> Unless things have changed recently textbooks in US are usually extremely general to adapt to any teacher and professors teach whatever version of Spanish they want to. Meaning if you changed classes, schools, instructors you changed grammar, accent and vocab.


I had professors from Spain, Argentina & Mexico along with americans but they all taught what you might call "general Latin American Spanish,"which is logical due to proximity.


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## mataripis

i remember when i studied basic Spanish, Vosotros is the plural form for "You" categorized as Informal You. The formal form(plural) is Ustedes. This is the reason why "vosotros" is only used in Espania.The people in Spain know when to use the formal and informal You in their country.But in the case, spanish language is used outside Spain, it is correct to use always the formal form of You (ustedes) because addressing someone(with ustedes) who you are not familiar is a form of politeness/respeto.


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## Youngfun

@Istriano:
English, Spanish (some varieties) and Portuguese (most Brazilian varieties) all had a common shift from the informal to the formal.
In all of them, what used to be informal now became "archaic" or "biblic" or "very formal".

English: _thou _-> _you_
Thou was informal and _you _was formal. Then _thou _has been replaced by _you_.
Now, _thou_ is considered archaic, Shakespearian or biblic. 

Brazilian Portuguese: tu -> você (most regions of Brazil and in media)
Well, some regions use _tu + 3rd person verb_ and that's considered regional/incorrect according to the grammar.
But in the regions that use você as informal pronoun, the form _tu+second person verb_ is considered archaic or biblical.
I see Brazilians use it all the time when talking to God or Jesus.
In São Paulo they always use _você, _but the football team _Corinthians_' song says _tu és_, because the song was composed many years ago.
I think in Brazil _tu+second person verb (e.g __tu és)_ survives only in Belém, but I'm not sure. And it's still used in Portugal and lusitan Africa.

European + Brazilian Portuguese: _vós_ -> _vocês_ 
In ancient times, _vós _was the informal plural 2nd person, and _vocês _the formal one, being the plural of _você_.
I guess _vós_ is now archaic in both Brazil and Portugal. Everybody used _vocês_ instead. I've heard that in Portugal they still use _vós_ in oblique form and the possessive adjective _vosso_, but I'm not sure...
According to my Brazilian friends, in Brazil _vós _is still used in grammar when conjugating verbs, and they feel it as very very formal.
But in this forum I've seen Angolan and Mozambican people still using it.

American Spanish: _vosotros_ -> _ustedes
_The informal _vosotros _survives only in Spain, while in America it's obsolete, they also use _ustedes_ for informal. So that's why many South Americans feel it as a very formal way to say _ustedes_, and use it in formal, commercial letters! 

American Spanish (non_-tuteante_ varieties): 1. tú -> vós; 2. tú -> ustéd
So in some country the informal word _tú _was replaced by the archaic formal word _vós_, while in some countries it was replaced by the modern formal word _ustéd_.
And it makes sense that in these countries, some people consider _tú _archaic/very formal.

I think in all the languages it's like this. Words that are not common, or are obsolete/archaic, or are used in ancient texts (such as the Bible) are felt as "formal", and used by somebody to sound more elegant or "posh".

I think that when coming to so called "Latin American General Spanish" or even "International Neutral Spanish" (such as dubbed movies, computer program translations, users' manuals translations) the preferred system is the Mexican/Peruvian system: _tu _singular informal/_ustéd_ singular formal/_ustedes_ plural.
This is also the form I use, cause I've learnt Spanish playing Gunbound Latino, where majority of players are Peruvian. 
But I think the Peninsular Spanish form, with _vosotros_, is just more logical, because maintains the plural 2nd person verb for the actual plural 2nd person.
While in American Spanish, when you say "cantan" you don't know if it's "ustedes cantan" or "ellos cantan". Furthermore, they do mistakes such as "voi cantano" when learning Italian.
I've seen my Spanish friend writing "Os quiero mucho" in a group photo with her friends. While in American Spanish "Las (o les?) quiero mucho", you don't understand if it's "I love you girls" (talking directly to them) or "I love them" (talking in 3rd person).
Also, in Spain "vuestro" means clearly "plural your". In American Spanish the possessive adjective "su" could mean his/her/its, but also plural your, and also their.

Ok, after said so many things, I come back to topic, about _why_ vosotros is used only in Spain.
The fact that the sailors were mostly Andalusian makes sense.
But in this forum, in another thread, some people gave another answer that makes sense too.
Most of the sailors were oh humble origin in Spain, usually of low social classes, so they would be addressed with _tú _by high social classes, while _vós _or _ustéd _were reserved for high classes only.
So when they went to the New World, they wanted to feel superior, and started to address each other with vós or ustéd. Slowly, this tendence became general, and they starting addressing everybody with vós or ustéd.
I suppose that in Peru and in Mexico the distinction tu informal/ustéd formal remained because the vice-king and the noble class settled there, being Mexico City and Lima the administrative "capitals" of the colonies.
But I don't know how accurate is this statement, as the distinction tu/ustéd also exists in other countries, but I don't remember which ones.


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## Fericire

Youngfun said:


> @Istriano:
> Brazilian Portuguese: tu -> você (most regions of Brazil and in media)
> Well, some regions use _tu + 3rd person verb_ and that's considered regional/incorrect according to the grammar.
> But in the regions that use você as informal pronoun, the form _tu+second person verb_ is considered archaic or biblical.
> I see Brazilians use it all the time when talking to God or Jesus.
> In São Paulo they always use _você, _but the football team _Corinthians_' song says _tu és_, because the song was composed many years ago.
> I think in Brazil _tu+second person verb (e.g __tu és)_ survives only in Belém, but I'm not sure. And it's still used in Portugal and lusitan Africa.
> 
> European + Brazilian Portuguese: _vós_ -> _vocês_
> In ancient times, _vós _was the informal plural 2nd person, and _vocês _the formal one, being the plural of _você_.
> I guess _vós_ is now archaic in both Brazil and Portugal. Everybody used _vocês_ instead. I've heard that in Portugal they still use _vós_ in oblique form and the possessive adjective _vosso_, but I'm not sure...
> According to my Brazilian friends, in Brazil _vós _is still used in grammar when conjugating verbs, and they feel it as very very formal.
> But in this forum I've seen Angolan and Mozambican people still using it.



I say "tu és", "tu vais" _et cetera _daily. "Tu" is used a lot in Brazil, but more and more people say "você" because of the media; the media refuses to accept "tu", so people think it is archaic.
Also, "vós" isn't dead. Although not common, there are people (usually the eldery) that say "Onde ides?" (conjugation of "vós").


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## Outsider

Youngfun said:


> @Istriano:
> English, Spanish (some varieties) and Portuguese (most Brazilian varieties) all had a common shift from the informal to the formal.
> In all of them, what used to be informal now became "archaic" or "biblic" or "very formal".


It's a bit more complicated, because forms of adress have tended to become less formal with time. Pronouns that used to be formal or neutral became informal, or lost part of their formality.

_Vosotros_ comes from _vos + otros_. _Vos_ was once the way to address a plural group of people, and also the way to address one person formally (like _vous_ still today in French). But at some point in Spanish _usted_ and _ustedes_ came along, and overtook _vos_ in formality. In parts of Latin America, _usted_ still coexists with a less formal singular _vos_. In Spain, plural _vos_ evolved to _vosotros_. There were parallel evolutions in neighboring languages like Catalan and French. Elsewhere, _vos_ was simply dropped, and _usted/ustedes_ became neutral.



terredepomme said:


> It's funny how Portuguese went the other way and "tu" dropped out in Brazil.


Notice that _você_ is the cognate of _usted_, not _vos/vosotros_.


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## Scholiast

Greetings all

To me as a Latinist - but sadly without specialist knowledge of the Iberian tongues - this is all fascinating, and introducing a whole new aspect of the discussion. A Moderator may wish to remove this to a new thread in a different forum, but I have this observation:

_vosotros_ is clearly a derivation from Latin _vos alteros_, "you other ones"; _ustedes_ from the pronominal adjective _iste_, which often has the sense of "your".

It would be fascinating to see, if anyone can recommend one online, a dialect map of modern Spanish (including of course Latin America), and indeed Portuguese? Aren't there in any case dialect forms of Spanish that merge into Portuguese in remoter areas, just as German merges into Dutch or Flemish in the extreme north-west?


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## killerbee256

Scholiast said:


> It would be fascinating to see, if anyone can recommend one online, a dialect map of modern Spanish (including of course Latin America), and indeed Portuguese? Aren't there in any case dialect forms of Spanish that merge into Portuguese in remoter areas, just as German merges into Dutch or Flemish in the extreme north-west?


 On the frontier between Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay you find Portuñol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuñol , and in Spain you have the Astur-Leonese languages which were/are part of a dialect continuum between standard Spanish and standard Portuguese. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astur-Leonese_languages and a bit on the random side there is also a mixed french portuguese language on the border between French Guiana and Brazil, Frantuguês/Frantugais (couldn't find much info on it thought). And voce(s) & Usted(es) are from old Spanish/Portugese vuestra merced/vossa mercê. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/usted#Spanish http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/você


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## Youngfun

Fericire said:


> I say "tu és", "tu vais" _et cetera _daily. "Tu" is used a lot in Brazil, but more and more people say "você" because of the media; the media refuses to accept "tu", so people think it is archaic.
> Also, "vós" isn't dead. Although not common, there are people (usually the eldery) that say "Onde ides?" (conjugation of "vós").


I'm sorry, what I wrote above was based on my limited contacts with Portuguese speakers, mostly young people.
I didn't know that "vós" was still used. Thanks. 
Also, I've seen young people from your city (Porto Alegre) using "tu é", "tu vai", etc. I've seen in other threads that in the South of Brazil older (relatively ) people tend to use the 2nd person verb, while young people tend to use 3rd person verb. Is it true? 



Outsider said:


> It's a bit more complicated, because forms of adress have tended to become less formal with time. Pronouns that used to be formal or neutral became informal, or lost part of their formality.


Thanks Outsider. 
I made a typo in my post, I wanted to write "all had a common shift from the _formal_ to the _informal_." I wanted to say that basically what used to be formal became informal, and what used to be informal became too formal/archaic/biblic/literal etc. etc.



Outsider said:


> _Vosotros_ comes from _vos + otros._


In Italian we also have _voialtri_, it maintened its original meaning of "you other guys".


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## Destruida

Outsider said:


> It's a bit more complicated, because forms of adress have tended to become less formal with time. Pronouns that used to be formal or neutral became informal, or lost part of their formality.
> 
> _Vosotros_ comes from _vos + otros_. _Vos_ was once the way to address a plural group of people, and also the way to address one person formally (like _vous_ still today in French). But at some point in Spanish _usted_ and _ustedes_ came along, and overtook _vos_ in formality. In parts of Latin America, _usted_ still coexists with a less formal singular _vos_. In Spain, plural _vos_ evolved to _vosotros_. There were parallel evolutions in neighboring languages like Catalan and French. Elsewhere, _vos_ was simply dropped, and _usted/ustedes_ became neutral.
> 
> Notice that _você_ is the cognate of _usted_, not _vos/vosotros_.



_Vous autres_ and _nous autres_ are commonly used in France, as a way of adding emphasis when you're contrasting or differentiating between the _you _and the _we_: you others, we others.


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