# ё



## Setwale_Charm

Is it true, I hear, that the letter ё is officially out of use and not allowed in any formal documents?


----------



## Kolan

Setwale_Charm said:


> Is it true, I hear, that the letter *ё* is officially out of use and not allowed in any formal documents?


*Ё* is mostly ignored nowadays, but cannot disappear because it reflects the proper pronunciation and is necessary, at least, to distinguish formally the cases (nouns). From my side (Canada), I have never heard of any prohibition, and personally never omit the use of *ё*.


----------



## Etcetera

I've never heard of any laws forbidding thе use of ё. 

And I can't imagine such a law - what if a person's surname contains an ё, for example? And this ё is the only letter that distinguishes their surname from a similar one, but with е?


----------



## Setwale_Charm

I heard of something like that in relation to official papers and documents.


----------



## Etcetera

I tried Google search and found this article. No laws on prohibiting the use of ё, on the contrary, ё is even promoted, although in a single region of Russia.


----------



## Maroseika

Setwale_Charm said:


> I heard of something like that in relation to official papers and documents.


It's absolutely impossible. Moreover, I've never heard of any other law regulation grammar of any kind of the documents but of general rule (arising from the 68ер art. of the Constitution) to obey current Russian grammar rules.


----------



## Anatoli

In official documents (perhaps, not related to personal or geographical names) letter *ё *is normally not used, not because it's not allowed but because it's more natural to write like this. It's true, I also heard it, that "ё" is not  recommended to be used in official documents, not sure if there was a decree prescribing it.  For that reason my surname was never written with it in official documents, which annoyed me because it created a new pronunciation for my name.


----------



## Kolan

Anatoli said:


> For that reason my surname was never written with it in official documents, which annoyed me because it created a new pronunciation for my name.


I guess, this is the point. The only official place where use of *ё* could be formally prohibited, is the transcription of names to be used in the Russian passport for traveling abroad. E.g., Ковал*ё*в would be now written as Ковал*е*в, therefore, transcribed as Koval*e*v, not Koval*io*v (or Koval*yo*v, Koval*jo*v). 

However, I know a person, _Solov*jo*v_, who inherited  her family name from  the grandparents whose documents were prepared respecting the use of *ё*, resulting in a totally screwed pronunciation, _Соловджов_ instead of _Соловь*ё*в_.


----------



## Maroseika

Anatoli said:


> In official documents (perhaps, not related to personal or geographical names) letter *ё *is normally not used, not because it's not allowed but because it's more natural to write like this.


Can you please explain why do you think it's more natural?


----------



## Anatoli

Maroseika, it's more natural because most people, including writers, journalists  don't write ё but e. I didn't create these rules, so I am annoyed too, as I mentioned. Of course, I asked the issuing office, why they don't write my name properly!


----------



## Etcetera

Maroseika said:


> Can you please explain why do you think it's more natural?


I guess because it requires an additional effort to write the dots above a "е" to make it "ё".

I'm really surprised to know that surnames should now be written without ё. It sounds really odd!


----------



## papillon

As far as I was able to find out, the use of letter ё is to this day governed by the 1956 rules "Правила русской орфографии и пунктуации"
Here is the part that concerns us:

*§ 10.* Буква *ё* пишется в следующих случаях: 
1. Когда необходимо предупредить неверное чтение и понимание слова, например: _узнаём_ в отличие от _узнаем_; _всё_ в отличие от _все_;  _вёдро_ в отличие от _ведро_; _совершённый_ (причастие) в отличие от _совершенный_ (прилагательное). 
2. Когда надо указать произношение малоизвестного слова. например: _река Олёкма_. 
3. В cпециальных текстах: букварях, школьных учебниках русского языкa, учебниках орфоэпии и т. п., а также в словарях для указания места ударения и правильного произношения. 
Примечание. В иноязычных словах в начале слов и после гласных вместо буквы *ё* пишется *йо*, например: _йод, йот, район, майор_.    

 What isn't entirely clear to me is what happens when these conditions aren't met. Is the use of *ё *then left to the disgression of the editor?



> Originally Posted by *Setwale_Charm*
> Is it true, I hear, that the letter *ё* is officially out of use and not allowed in any formal documents?


Based on what I saw, I would have to say that this isn't true, although it's possible that some bureaucrats took it upon themselves to simplify the orthography and their own work.


----------



## tkekte

А что такое вёдро?


----------



## Anatoli

Etcetera said:


> I guess because it requires an additional effort to write the dots above a "е" to make it "ё".
> 
> I'm really surprised to know that surnames should now be written without ё. It sounds really odd!


Not now, it's quite an old rule, it may not be followed strictly now, if at all. Well, I'm 40 and I received my (internal) passport and military ID without the diaeresis (tréma, umlaut, dots, etc.) over ё. Same thing happened when I received my travel passport (more than once).



> Based on what I saw, I would have to say that this isn't true, although it's possible that some bureaucrats took it upon themselves to simplify the orthography and their own work.


Perhaps, this is the answer.



> What isn't entirely clear to me is what happens when these conditions aren't met. Is the use of *ё *then left at the disgression of the editor?


This questions remains unanswered, if someone can't quote more rules on this.


----------



## Etcetera

Anatoli said:


> Not now, it's quite an old rule, it may not be followed strictly now, if at all. Well, I'm 40 and I received my (internal) passport and military ID without the diaeresis (tréma, umlaut, dots, etc.) over ё. Same thing happened when I received my travel passport (more than once).


Still, it's very odd. 

Actually, I've met people who were really anxious about the way their names were spelt in documents. They insisted on ё being written with the dots, for example. 

At the same time, my colleague, whose surname should be written with the initial ё, gets her surname spelt with "е" all the time. I don't know how she feels about it, though.


----------



## Anatoli

I was very annoyed before migrating to Australia 10 years ago, now I had to change the pronunciation as well to match the English spelling. Well, of course, in my passport they transliterated "ё" with an "e", not "yo" or "io".

If you are curious I can PM my surname, don't want to publish here. I assure you, it doesn't sound weird after this little transformation


----------



## Stripped

"Ё" is very much alive and kicking... From a recent news release:


Министр образования и науки России назвал "незаконным" отказ от употребления буквы "ё"

(The Russian Minister of Culture and Education Calls the Abandoning of "Ё" "Illegal")


----------



## Etcetera

Stripped said:


> "Ё" is very much alive and kicking... From a recent news release:
> 
> 
> Министр образования и науки России назвал "незаконным" отказ от употребления буквы "ё"
> 
> (The Russian Minister of Culture and Education Calls the Abandoning of "Ё" "Illegal")


I don't like this article. 

Not that I dislike ё, but I really hate when something is being forced into use in such a way. And, to say the truth, for me it's definitely easier to read words without ё's. I'm well accustomed to the use of "е" instead of ё. Let us have free choice in this matter!

However, I agree that in some cases, the use of ё should be obligatory, for example, in surnames.


----------



## Kolan

Etcetera said:


> Let us have free choice in this matter!


Which letter would be the next candidate?


----------



## Q-cumber

I think it is obligatory to use Ё in a proper way. Most probably, the usage of the letter was somewhat limited due to some technical reasons in "pre-computer era", when wany typewriters didn't have separate Ё buttons. Nowadays I see no other reason, but laziness, not to use the letter. I always use it in my texts and advice everybody to do the same.


----------



## Nanon

Dear All,

This thread is interesting - however it makes me wonder how I should write and behave, and not only as a non-native.
The use of ë is convenient because it clarifies the pronunciation; moreover, as Q-cumber says, contemporary keyboards now have this letter. But what about the tons of books, articles and all kind of written material that do not use ë? That sort of creates a rule for what one writes and another rule or usage for what one reads... 
Of course, should I be teaching Russian, I would use ë (in application of § 10.3).
However, I must say that non-systematic application of rules is not specific to the Russian language...


----------



## tolmachka

As it was already said, it's more easier for me also to write е, and not ё. Everybody has a choise to use any letter as he wanna, except some cases when ё is obligatory. But for example in belarusian language you should always write ё, because the chosen letter may change the sense of the word.


----------



## Q-cumber

tolmachka said:


> But for example in belarusian language you should always write ё, because the chosen letter may change the sense of the word.


The same can be said for Russian:
A very common sample: "всё" and "все"...when Ё is missing, especially in complicated phrases, we get confused. 
Or *он осел* and *oн осёл*. Has he fallen down or is he a donkey? 

PS A dictionary , containing words with Ё.


> Опубликован в новой книге В. Т. Чумакова
> "Вместо ё печатать е – ошибка!".
> М.: "Народное образование", 2005.



PPS  





> ! афeра (афёра — неправ.)


 Interesting, I used to think *афёра* is a correct variant!  Live and learn, indeed!


----------



## Kolan

Q-cumber said:


> PPS Interesting, I used to think *афёра* is a correct variant!  Live and learn, indeed!


I am afraid to say that it comes from French *affaire* (аф*э*р), дело, вещи, любовное приключение, where is no *ё*.


----------



## Kolan

Q-cumber said:


> *он осел* and *oн осёл*. Has he fallen down or is he a donkey?


What do you think it should be, *оселок* or  *осёлок*?


----------



## Etcetera

Kolan said:


> Which letter would be the next candidate?


й, I suppose. 

Just kidding.

Seriously, I simply don't like the letter ё. And when I see it in a text (not written for educational purposes), I have the impression that the author is simply being too scrupulous.


----------



## Kolan

Etcetera said:


> Seriously, I simply don't like the letter ё. And when I see it in a text (not written for educational purposes), I have the impression that the author is simply being too scrupulous.


That is a sort of personal prejudice. In fact, *ё* with *е* only have a common graphics symbol, but they are paired totally differently, *ё* with *о*, *е* with *э*. If *ё* is doomed being replaced by *е*, then *о, not й* will have to vanish the next pushed by *э*. (However, I dislike *э*, because it looks like an alien cyrillic symbol, Bulgarian does not have it, neither does Ukrainian, nor any other Slavic language using Cyrillic graphics).


----------



## tkekte

Однако если б не было е, а только э и є, то было бы эстєтично. 
Но тогда и букву с пришлоsь бы выкинуть, тк sочетания «єс» и «сє» плохо sмотрятsя.


----------



## cyanista

Kolan said:


> That is a sort of personal prejudice.
> <...>
> (However, I dislike *э*, because it looks like an alien cyrillic symbol, Bulgarian does not have it, neither does Ukrainian, nor any other Slavic language using Cyrillic graphics).



Sort of personal prejudice, too, isn't it?  To me, ћ may look like an alien symbol among Cyrillic letters, but I'm pretty sure no Serbian would agree with this sentiment. 

Just as a side note, Belarusian makes extensive use of э. I hope it still counts as a Slavic language?


----------



## Kolan

*Э* seems to be redundant because if you totally replace its use in Russian by *е*, no written collision would ever happen. (But you will have to remember the pronunciation, like in the *ё* case). On the other side, *э* is a Cyrillic letter, not found in any other types of graphics, and by its presence in a written excerpt one can identify that it is written in Russian or Belorussian language.


----------



## Q-cumber

Э есть и в украинском языке, только она повёрнута в другую сторону - Є.


----------



## Kolan

Q-cumber said:


> Э есть и в украинском языке, только она повёрнута в другую сторону - Є.


Звучание-то у неё другое, хотя она парная к *е*. Суть не в этом, а в том, что её, как и *э*, из языка можно бесследно убрать, не касаясь принципа, нарушаемого в случае с *ё* (из-за чего возникают немалые коллизии, которые в случае с фамилиями нелегко исправить, в отличие от случая с *аферами*).


----------



## Q-cumber

http://www.newsru.com/russia/10jul2007/yo_letter.html



> Недавно в светлые головы Ульяновских чиновников пришла новая идея, касающаяся выражения почтения русскому языку. Отныне отдать дань уважения великому и могучему горожане смогут, поцеловав памятник букве "ё". Авторы неординарной идеи говорят, что им уже удалось найти понимание у ульяновцев – монумент в центре города превратился в место паломничества поклонников словесности, пишут "Новые известия".
> 
> Все последние дни в центре Ульяновска можно наблюдать необычное явление – к возведенному несколько лет назад памятнику седьмой букве русского алфавита подходят люди и молча целуют его. "Любой поцелуй – это всегда приятно. Целовать букву "ё" приятно вдвойне. Ведь в последнее время русский язык стремительно засоряется. Будет здорово, если наше внимание пойдет родному языку только на пользу", – заявил один из жителей города Николай Осипов, пришедший специально для того, чтобы поцеловать букву, которую, по признанию мужчины, он часто использует в своем лексиконе.


----------



## Stripped

Etcetera said:


> й, I suppose.



I'd bet on "ер" - "ъ". Already tried -- it showed a surprising resilience. Time for an encore performance?


----------



## PERSEE

I'd like to give you the point of you of a French learner. (I'm French, but I guess if I was British or German, it would make no difference whatsoever.) The "transformation" of ë into e from my textbooks to real-life texts was a big surprise and to this day remains for me a real pain in the neck, that is one of the so many difficulties of this marvelous language that is Russian. I can only dream of a time when I'll be so fluent that I'll always know, reading an article, which "e" are "ë" and which ones are not !



Etcetera said:


> I don't like this article.
> 
> Not that I dislike ё, but I really hate when something is being forced into use in such a way. And, to say the truth, for me it's definitely easier to read words without ё's. I'm well accustomed to the use of "е" instead of ё. Let us have free choice in this matter!
> 
> However, I agree that in some cases, the use of ё should be obligatory, for example, in surnames.


----------



## Anatoli

This problem can be compared with the knowledge of where the stress is. Usually you learn a word and its stress patterns - the dictionary form accent and stress in other forms. Yes, the fact that a Russian text doesn't usually have ё causes a lot of problems for learners but compared to English spelling it's a very minor problem. The more difficult situation for learners is with Arabic (missing or non-written short vowels - which is standard, often non-written hamza over or under alif
(normal alif ا,alif with a hamza above أ and alif with a hamza below: إ )
mixture of  ي and ى. The last 2 examples are quite comparable with the Russian ё/е mix-up.

Quite interesting (in Russian)
Последствия необязательного употребления буквы «ё»

The paragraphs above talk about consequences of non-mandatory usage of "ё" on the Russian language pronunciation and spelling. Many foreign words have been changed. The original intention was to spell them with ё. It also affected the way Russian names have been spelled in English - Gorbach*e*v, Khrushch*e*v, Korolev_, _not Gorbachov/Gorbachyov, Khrushchov/Khrushchyov, Korolyov.

The mix up created variants:
_блёклый and блеклый, белесый __and__ белёсый, маневр __and__ манёвр, желчь __and__ жёлчь_

Mispronunciation by native speakers (the latter is correct):
афёра instead of афера, гренадёр instead of гренадер, бытиё instead of бытие, опёка instead of опека.

I always thought that гренад*ё*р is correct 

I often heard совремённый instead of современный from older people.


----------



## Lugubert

Q-cumber said:


> Nowadays I see no other reason, but laziness, not to use the letter.


So what happens if you're booking an air fare and insist on writing your ë? There's an ö in my surname, and when I try it, I'm even in Sweden told that I have used a non-letter. The first few times I was nervous when checking in, because the o on the ticket didn't match my passport ö.

What's your strategy if you're in an Internet café in a country where there is no keyboard ë? We had a thread in the Scandinavian forum on if for example o or oe was the better choice in the absence of an ö key.


----------



## Sobakus

Lugubert said:


> So what happens if you're booking an air fare and insist on writing your ë? There's an ö in my surname, and when I try it, I'm even in Sweden told that I have used a non-letter. The first few times I was nervous when checking in, because the o on the ticket didn't match my passport ö.


Show them the Swedish alphabet =\ If there is a letter in the official alphabet, it is unlawful for them to prohibit writing it.



> What's your strategy if you're in an Internet café in a country where there is no keyboard ë? We had a thread in the Scandinavian forum on if for example o or oe was the better choice in the absence of an ö key.



http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ё_(кир...B8.D1.86.D0.B0_.D0.BA.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE.D0.B2 saves the day.


----------



## Anatoli

> What's your strategy if you're in an Internet café in a country where there is no keyboard ë?


Sometimes you have to look for it harder. It can be "Shift + 6" or copy from another place. As it was told already, the Russian strategy is, "ё" can only be replaced with "е" in writing. In Belarusian it's mandatory, in Ukrainian йо, ьо is used.

I am native Russian with an ë in the surname, which is not obvious to some people. I already discussed this. My documents were all written without it causing confusion.


----------

