# 42nd President of USA - how to ask a question with an ordinal answer.



## son-nie

Good day everyone!

Please help me out on this one.

  Ineed to know how to ask the question properly if you want to arrive with an answer that deals with order. samples are:


1. She is our 13th president.

2. This is my third time to watch this movie.


Help guys, 
I badly need it!

Thanks a lot


----------



## QUIJOTE

elroy said:
			
		

> Hm...Are you sure "what number of presidency is she?" is ok? Does that sound natural to you?
> 
> Admittedly, I can't think of an unambiguously fitting question, but I'm still having trouble with the one you suggest.
> 
> "What number of presidency" just doesn't seem to work, for some reason.
> 
> Googling for "What number of presidency" yields 0 results.
> 
> I will think about some more and come back if I'm inspired.


 
You right after I read it it does sound awkward, What number president was she? would be my choice, as for the second I would say *I've seen this movie a number of times*, but I left the phrases intact for his reference, something I regret now since it did get all this started and at the end the thread was splitted in two, and Panj cut my posts I am sure by mistake, so he says (just kidding Panj  ), long story short this is the last time I post message while talking on the phone and answering another email. sorry guys


----------



## cirrus

QUIJOTE said:
			
		

> what number of presidency is she?
> 1. She is our 13th president.


 
I know this has been tussled over but here's my two cents:
To my ears, "What number of presidency" doesn't sound like anything a native English would speaker would say regardless of where they are from.
A question that would elicit the answer would be something along the lines of: "Is she the twelfth or the fourteenth president?"

The second response doesn't sound right to me either: 


			
				QUIJOTE said:
			
		

> 2. This is the third time I watch this movie.


I'd say this is the third time I've watched this movie.

I hope this clarifies things.


----------



## panjandrum

This thread was closed temporarily for repair but is now open for business.
Please try to keep on topic to some extent at least.
Posts that addressed the structure of the Son-nie's answers, but did not address the question, have been relocated to a thread about watching movies and watching TV programmes.

Panjandrum...
... In mod mood.


----------



## GenJen54

How about using "which," as in "Which President is she?"


----------



## cirrus

But that wouldn't necessarily elicit the answer the thirteenth president: the one with pink teeth, a policy to annexe Cuba could all be possible answers.


----------



## panjandrum

I suppose we can assume that she is, in fact, the 13th President.
In that case, I might have asked:
"Is she the 12th, 13th or 14th President of your country?"


----------



## Aupick

You could just cheat and say 'Whose 13th president is she?'


----------



## elroy

"What is her order of presidency?"

 Not sure at all - just throwing it out there.


----------



## elroy

Just had some more ideas:

"Where did/does her presidential term fall in the order of presidency?"
"Which president was she, in terms of chronological order?"


----------



## SweetMommaSue

Welcome son-nie!

I'm with GenJen on this one.  I would ask:
1. Which president is she?
2. This is which time that you've watched this movie? 

--Smiles!
Sweet Momma Sue

If I understand you correctly, you are dealing with ordinal vs. cardinal numbers.  So, you need answers that deal with the order of things: first, second, third, fourth, etc.

I believe that the questions I've posted would cause a person to answer with an ordinal number vice a cardinal or counting one.  If I ask "How many times have you seen or watched this movie?" Many folks would answer, "This is my third time."  However, many others would also correctly answer, "3," or "three times".  So, that is why I structured my questions the way I did.  "Which" is a question word that asks for a position in a sequence, in this case. 

Does this help to clarify things a little?


----------



## duder

Here are my suggestions:

1. _What number President is/was _____?_ 
=> I tested this on a few people and got the response I was looking for. I use and hear this construction quite frequently.

_Which President is (past tense: was) ______ ? _
=> Again, I tested this and got the desired answer. This might not work for more obscure names, but when it is clear that both speakers are familiar with the name, then one assumes that the number is what is being asked. To remove all ambiguity, one could add a guess at the end: _Tenth?_ (Is that cheating?)

2. _How many times does it make now that you're seeing this movie?_

It gets a little simpler to write if we change the tense, but the meaning changes slightly too:

_How many times have you watched this movie now?_


----------



## son-nie

thanks guys, you really helped a lot!

thanks so much to all of you.

may God bless you always.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

I know it sounds odd to ask such a question like "How manyth..." and I cannot think of any other question forms to inquire ordinals. I suppose there's no standard form for this, right? If there's please tell about that, if there's not, then how to ask such a question expecting an answer like "4th president, 42nd president etc."

What do you think about these:
*What number in the sequence of Turkish Presidents does Mr. Sezer occupy?*
and
*What place does Mr. Sezer take in the sequence of Turkish Presidents?
*
P.S: I'd be glad if you could correct my terrible mistakes.


----------



## Cayuga

Chazzwozzer said:


> I know it sounds odd to ask such a question like such as "How manyth..." and but I cannot think of any other question forms to use to inquire about ordinals. I suppose there's no standard form for this, right? If there is, please tell me about that, it; if there's not, then how to do you ask such a question with  expecting an answer like such as "4th president, 42nd president etc."



Believe it or not, Chazz, we -- or at least I -- say "What number president was he?"

I think you've hit on something the English language is lacking.


----------



## mirx

Chazzwozzer said:


> I know it sounds odd to ask such a question like "How manyth..." and I cannot think of any other question forms to inquire ordinals. I suppose there's no standard form for this, right? If there's please tell about that, if there's not, then how to ask such a question expecting an answer like "4th president, 42nd president etc."
> 
> What do you think about these:
> *What number in the sequence of Turkish Presidents does Mr. Sezer occupy?*
> and
> *What place does Mr. Sezer take in the sequence of Turkish Presidents?*
> 
> P.S: I'd be glad if you could correct my terrible mistakes.


 
What president number was Mr. sezer?

and I agree with cayuga, I would most likely say what he posted.


----------



## loladamore

Chazzwozzer said:


> What do you think about these:
> *What number in the sequence of Turkish Presidents does Mr. Sezer occupy?*
> and
> *What place does Mr. Sezer take in the sequence of Turkish Presidents?*


 
I think that they are such elegant options that it is a shame that most native speakers wouldn't have come up with them!
I'm not quite sure what I would say. Perhaps I would say something slightly different and ask: 

*How many Presidents were there before Mr. Sezer?*

Cayuga's option sounds very natural.

This is not the first time that someone has asked this question, *look*.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

Got it, thank you guys.


----------



## nestor76

Hi, I came across a strange problem and I just can not find a proper solution.

"Bill Clinton is the *42nd *President of the United States of America."
"George W. Bush is the *43rd* President of the United States of America."

Here, my problem is the bold part, the ordinal number. How can I ask an ordinal number in a question? To be the 42nd or the 43rd etc.. is one of the characteristics of the person. How can I ask that characteristic of that person?

Thanks.


----------



## LV4-26

The only solution I can come up with is
_Where does Bill Clinton stand in the order of US presidents?_

I hope someone will find a better option.


----------



## Thomas1

Could
_Which president was Bill Clinton?_
work?


Tom


----------



## nestor76

Thanks LV4-26.
Thomas1, that is actually not specific enough, because the answer could be anything. Such as, he was the tallest one or the shortest one etc. 
The answer must be specifically "the 42nd." So the question must ask the ordinal number.


----------



## nestor76

I also came up with something, but I'm not totally sure about it. 

Is it possible to say
"In historical order which president is Bill Clinton?"


----------



## Orange Blossom

We have a tendency to ask such questions this way:

Who was the 42nd president of the United States?

Orange Blossom


----------



## nestor76

Thanks, but what if I don't know if he's the 42nd or 43rd? Your suggestion is more like the answer. 

The real problem is that in turkish we have a specific word "kacinci". If you say "kacinci?", you get the answer "42nd etc..."

I'm wondering how to properly ask a question so as to get the answer "42nd, 28th etc..." 

Question: *"............?"*
Answer: "He's the 42nd."


----------



## Orange Blossom

It's rather awkward in English. The question I provided would be one a history teacher would give when quizzing the students about their knowledge of the order of the presidents.  The answer in this case is the president's name.  The knowledge quizzed is the same: Does the student know the order of the presidents?

In other situations:  If there is someone I know seated in a theater, but I don't know where he is seated I could say:

"Where is _name _seated?"  And the answer might be "The second row from the front."

As far as I know, there is no good way to ask a question, especially a stand-alone question, in English which would result in answers that are only ordinal numbers.

Orange Blossom


----------



## mgarizona

"Which number president was Bill Clinton?"


----------



## lablady

Perhaps you could preface the question with a statement to show you are thinking about numbers.

For example:
"George Washington was the first US president. Which one was Clinton?"

Like Orange Blossom, I can't think of a good way to ask the question and ensure the right answer without establishing a little background information.

Edit: except maybe "Which number president was Bill Clinton?"  as mgarizona suggests


----------



## Orange Blossom

lablady said:


> Perhaps you could preface the question with a statement to show you are thinking about numbers.
> 
> For example:
> "George Washington was the first US president. Which one was Clinton?"



I like this.



lablady said:


> "Which number president was Bill Clinton?"  as mgarizona suggests



Maybe it's just me, but this question sounds awkward and clunky to me.  I prefer the earlier solution.

Orange Blossom


----------



## lsp

nestor76 said:


> I also came up with something, but I'm not totally sure about it.
> 
> Is it possible to say
> "In historical order which president is Bill Clinton?"



Better, in my opinion, is numerical.


----------



## river

What presidential number is Bill Clintion? US Presidents - William *Clinton*

MGArizona's "What number president is Bill Clinton?" is clear to me as well.


----------



## mgarizona

Orange Blossom said:


> Maybe it's just me, but this question sounds awkward and clunky to me. I prefer the earlier solution.
> 
> Orange Blossom


 
Sorry to offend your ear, but a quick glance at Google---searching "which number president"--- would seem to back me up.

(Including the bizarre: "I've decided to ask my boss today which number president Benjamin Franklin was.")


----------



## maxiogee

nestor76 said:


> Hi, I came across a strange problem and I just can not find a proper solution.
> 
> "Bill Clinton *is* *was** the *42nd *President of the United States of America."
> "George W. Bush is the *43rd* President of the United States of America."
> 
> Here, my problem is the bold part, the ordinal number. How can I ask an ordinal number in a question? To be the 42nd or the 43rd etc.. is one of the characteristics of the person. How can I ask that characteristic of that person?
> 
> Thanks.



Bill is no longer the 42nd President. He lost the present tense when his second term ended. George will lose his present tense when his term ends.

My answer to your question depends on exactly what you wish to know. If you know the number which relates to one president you might say - "Gerald Ford was the 38th US President - what number was Bill Clinton?"
If you don't know any of the numbers, you might need to say "How many American presidents were there before Bill Clinton?"


----------



## JamesM

I think "which/what number president was he?" is what I'd most likely expect to hear (as river and mgarizona). It's clear to my U.S. English ears what the questioner is looking for. My wife suggests, "Which U.S. president was he in sequence?" I think that also works.

(Just as a side note, there are two ways of counting this "sequential" number. We have some presidents who have served two non-contiguous terms, so some people will count one person as both the 22nd and 24th president, for example, while others will consider it simply a matter of the 22nd president receiving a subsequent non-contiguous term. All this is to say that there may be two "correct" answers to the question being sought here.)


----------



## panjandrum

For some bizarre reason this topic has appeared twice before.
Why do people want to know how to ask a question that has an ordinal as an answer? Is this little challenge an exercise in a grammar textbook or an exam test paper?

I've added today's thread to the end of the previous two, so it would be worth reading the earlier posts to see if there is an answer that suits you.  As I recall, there was not perfect answer.


----------



## Orange Blossom

I like these solutions proposed in one of the earlier threads:



> Originally Posted by *Chazzwozzer*
> 
> 
> What do you think about these:
> *What number in the sequence of Turkish Presidents does Mr. Sezer occupy?*
> and
> *What place does Mr. Sezer take in the sequence of Turkish Presidents?*


 
I have altered the last sentence for a U.S. president:

What place does Mr. Clinton take in the sequence of U.S. presidents?

It solicits the desired answer and sounds good too. 

Orange Blossom


----------



## Thomas1

panjandrum said:


> For some bizarre reason this topic has appeared twice before.
> Why do people want to know how to ask a question that has an ordinal as an answer? Is this little challenge an exercise in a grammar textbook or an exam test paper?
> 
> I've added today's thread to the end of the previous two, so it would be worth reading the earlier posts to see if there is an answer that suits you. As I recall, there was not perfect answer.


I think it's more a question of how to express that in English as in my mother language, and as I presume in many others, this question may be clearly posed and you'll get the desired answer. 


Tom


----------



## maxiogee

As the Bush's could well be setting up a dynasty  how about "regnal number"?


----------



## mrbilal87

Depending on grade level (grade 6 students for example), I think "What number president was Mr. Clinton" should do fine. "What place does Mr. Clinton take in the sequence of U.S. presidents", as Orange_Blossom suggested, sounds fine as well for older students.


----------



## panjandrum

Thomas1 said:


> I think it's more a question of how to express that in English as in my mother language, and as I presume in many others, this question may be clearly posed and you'll get the desired answer.
> Tom


Thanks Tom.  I hadn't thought of that.  How very curious.


----------



## mgarizona

Orange Blossom said:


> What place does Mr. Clinton take in the sequence of U.S. presidents?
> 
> It solicits the desired answer and sounds good too.
> 
> Orange Blossom


 
Mightn't "Next to last" answer that question accurately, though not in the 'desired' fashion?


----------



## lsp

Thomas1 said:


> I think it's more a question of how to express that in English as in my mother language, and as I presume in many others, this question may be clearly posed and you'll get the desired answer.
> 
> 
> Tom


And yet I only found this thread because it was linked from the same question in Italian-English this morning. 

I still like "Which president was XYZ, in numerical order?" which no one has seen fit to like or dislike enough to mention.


----------



## Mack&Mack

Hello,

I am wondering what would be a question for the following sentences.

_I am the third child in my family._

_He is the twelfth president in my country._

Would you say, _What number of child are you_? or _What number of president is he?_

I remember someone saying_ how many presidents were there before him? _If it sounds okay what about _how many older siblings do you have?_

Thank you in advance.


----------



## Full Tilt Boogie

Mack&Mack said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am wondering what would be a question for the following sentences.
> 
> _I am the third child in my family._
> 
> _He is the twelfth president in my country._
> 
> Would you say, _What number of child are you_? or _What number of president is he?_
> 
> I remember someone saying_ how many presidents were there before him? _If it sounds okay what about _how many older siblings do you have?_
> 
> Thank you in advance.



It depends: is the third child the first, middle, last child to be born?

If so, refer to it as such. 'Third child' is accurate in terms of enumerating where that child falls in order of birth, but leaves the person to whom you address the statement with very little idea as to where the child might be in terms of seniority within the family.

"I am the second eldest/third eldest' is an answer you'd expect to receive.

'How many siblings do you have?' is accurate; 'how many brothers & sisters do you have?' is less formal.

Oh, and it's "He's the twelfth president _of_ my country...", not 'in'.


----------



## mlee0332

You might ask, "Which president is he?" or "Which child are you?" but I'm not sure either.

"What number president is he?" doesn't really make sense to me.

Other than that, I don't know how you would ask what number a person is in a list...


----------



## Diablo919

"What number president is he?" sounds OK to me (regionally maybe?) but there are definitely better alternatives.


----------



## panjandrum

Today's thread on this topic has been added to the accumulation of several previous threads.  Please read from early in the thread.  It is not only about presidents


----------



## JulianStuart

As pointed out earlier, there appears to be no interrogative word in English that requires an answer in ordinal form ( i.e. no "what-th" ) although it may exist in other languages.  It is therefore not a situation for a native English speaker to even conceive of such a restrictive question with any frequency, such that all compliant options sound contrived.


----------



## mlee0332

Diablo919 said:


> "What number president is he?" sounds OK to me (regionally maybe?) but there are definitely better alternatives.


 
Well, I guess it could work.  Now that I think about it a little.


----------



## halthecomputer

I don't like any of the above responses, to me all of them either don't sound right or are ambiguous. I would suggest asking, "How many Presidents came before her?" Add one and you have your answer.


----------



## mgarizona

I don't disagree with anything JulianStuart writes, but those infrequent situations that demand such a question deserve being addressed. 

To wit, I feel compelled to make a little personal confession to give a background to my suggestion of "what number ____ etc."

I am the youngest of 15 children. When you grow up in a family like that, questions regarding ordinal ranking are NOT infrequent. I was asked "What number are you?" literally hundreds of times. What's interesting now, looking back, is that not only do I not recall anyone having ever phrased the question any other way, but I don't recall anyone having had to scramble for the words. "What number are you?" seemed to flow automatically from the tongues of one and all, young or old, friend or foe.

No doubt this is why I considered "What number President was Bill Clinton" a no-brainer.

And by the way, in the hope of expanding beyond talk of US Presidents, I found this on a site called liverpoolquiz.org.uk:

What number Louis was executed in the French Revolution?


----------



## kaukajoe

Thanks Panja

Realy appreciated, so the first one does not sound appropriate ??


----------



## maheshsek

how to rephrase the question- what is the position of barrack obama in the list of us presidents.


----------



## mgarizona

maheshsek said:


> how to rephrase the question- what is the position of barrack obama in the list of us presidents.



Sorry, that doesn't work either. "He is the current president" or "Most recent" or simply "Last" answers that question as well as any ordinal number would.

Replace Obama with Taft and then maybe. Other than "27th" it would be difficult to find him a distinction.


----------



## George French

Quote from wikipedia 

"The Presidents have unique (identification) numbers; only one President has 2. Thus it is legitimate to ask "Which President was Grover Cleveland?" . The answer is "the twenty second and the twenty fourth".

The answer to the original question "Which U.S. president was Bill Clinton?"

is thus "He was the 42nd"

GF..

Always assuming my source was correct. I have not verified this. Naughty


----------



## LV4-26

Must we conclude that this is a (rare) case of a signifed without a signifier? A meaning that can just not be expressed in words?

By the way, you might be interested to learn that French has exactly the same problem.


----------



## pksanthi

Which number of the Presidents of USA was Bill Clinton?


----------



## mgarizona

George French said:


> "Which President was Grover Cleveland?" . The answer is "the twenty second and the twenty fourth".
> 
> GF..
> 
> Always assuming my source was correct. I have not verified this. Naughty



Again, this doesn't serve our purposes because the question "Which President was Grover Cleveland?" can quite properly be answered, "He was the only President to serve two non-consecutive terms."

In colloquial English, "What number Louis was beheaded in 1793?" will get you an ordinal answer. So will "What number President was Bill Clinton?"

In stodgy English one could also simply ask, "In the ordinal numeration of presidencies, which is Bill Clinton's?"


----------



## JulianStuart

mgarizona said:


> In colloquial English, "What number Louis was beheaded in 1793?" will get you an ordinal answer. So will "What number President was Bill Clinton?"



I think this_ is _the best solution and, reviewing the thread and discussion again today, to my ear it sounds just fine.  It's hard to conceive of any other meaning for this question other than the one requested in post #1 (and the others merged thereto).

One needs to be a little specific between presidencies and presidents, since they are not necessarily the same number.


----------



## u-1

Good morning,

I have a question.

I met a person who has six siblings. I wanted to know if he is the first child (the oldest), the second child, the third child, the fourth child, the fifth child, or the sixth child (the youngest).

However, I couldn't ask him about that with one simple question sentence, so I did some research about it on the Internet and found this question, "What number child are you in your family?". 

Do you think that this question sentence sounds natural? Are there other ways to say the question in English?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## ewie

Hullo, U-1.  This is one of our (fairly) frequently asked questions ~ see above.  If you still have doubts after reading that, just add them here


----------



## wandle

Certainly, 'Which number president was Bill Clinton?' and 'Which number child are you?' are common colloquial questions, instantly understandable.
Unfortunately, they do not call for the answer 'forty-second' or 'third': they are likely to be answered '42' or '3'.

When I was at school, we were taught to ask 'Which...?' and, for full clarity, to include the words 'in order of succession', thus:

'Which president in order of succession was Bill Cinton?'

We were specifically taught this method. When teachers wanted an answer in ordinal numbers, they would say 'Which (or 'what') is that in order of succession?'


----------



## canadian45

wandle said:


> Certainly, 'Which number president was Bill Clinton?' and 'Which number child are you?' are common colloquial questions, instantly understandable.
> Unfortunately, they do not call for the answer 'forty-second' or 'third': they are likely to be answered '42' or '3'.
> 
> When I was at school, we were taught to ask 'Which...?' and, for full clarity, to include the words 'in order of succession', thus:
> 
> 'Which president in order of succession was Bill Cinton?'
> 
> We were specifically taught this method. When teachers wanted an answer in ordinal numbers, they would say 'Which (or 'what') is that in order of succession?' That doesn't guarantee an ordinal-number answer.



It seems clear that if one wants an ordinal-number answer, one has to specify that.  

What ordinal-number president was Bill Clinton?


----------



## wandle

canadian45 said:


> 'Which (or 'what') is that in order of succession?' That doesn't guarantee an ordinal-number answer.


I beg to differ. 
'Ordinal' means 'in order of sequence' or 'succession'. (Chambers English Dictionary 1990)

WordReference says:
*ordinal*
▶adjective
    * 1 relating to order in a series.


----------



## canadian45

wandle said:


> I beg to differ.
> 'Ordinal' means 'in order of sequence' or 'succession'. (Chambers English Dictionary 1990) But '1 2 3' is also a sequence.
> 
> WordReference says:
> *ordinal*
> ▶adjective
> * 1 relating to order in a series.


 But I think that 'everyone' knows that '3rd' is an ordinal number and '3' is not. And 'third is an adjective.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ordinal+numbers


----------



## wandle

When you ask the question 'Which is that in order of succession?' then the adjective 'Third' is in grammatical terms a valid answer, but 'three' or '3' is not. 

That is because 'third' expresses the order, but 'three' or '3' does not. 
'Three' names a number: 'third' describes its position in order.


----------



## George French

canadian45 said:


> But I think that 'everyone' knows that '3rd' is an ordinal number and '3' is not. And 'third is an adjective.



I do not share your faith about everyone knowing what an ordinal number is... even though you have put it in quotes.  Third can be used as an adjective or a noun. What it is being used for here I shall leave open....

GF..

And I do mean many, many fewer than everyone.


----------



## canadian45

wandle said:


> When you ask the question 'Which is that in order of succession?' then the adjective 'Third' is in grammatical terms a valid answer, but 'three' or '3' is not.
> 
> That is because 'third' expresses the order, but 'three' or '3' does not.
> 'Three' names a number: 'third' describes its position in order.



It seems that we will have to disagree on this. "third" and "three" are not the only possible answers to your question.

'Which is that in order of succession?" could be reasonably answered with '*number* *3*'. So I remain with the belief that the only way to guarantee an ordinal-number answer is to specify that in the question.


----------



## wandle

canadian45 said:


> 'Which is that in order of succession?" could be reasonably answered with '*number* *3*'. So I remain with the belief that the only way to guarantee an ordinal-number answer is to specify that in the question.



'Which is that in order of succession?"  is a different question from 'Which is that in succession?'
The difference is that the order is specifically requested to be given. 
The only numeral which gives the order is, as its name implies, the ordinal.

Of course, it is perfectly possible for the other party to overlook this difference and give an inappropriate answer.

On the other hand, if you add to the question the words, 'Please give your answer as an ordinal number' then (a) your question becomes too lengthy for ordinary conversation, (b) you will sound like a talking maths exam, (c) as *George French* has pointed out, most people will not know what you are talking about anyway and (d) it will still be perfectly possible for the respondent not to give the answer as an ordinal. 

Nothing will ever guarantee an ordinal answer.  We have to face the fact that there is a gap in the language here, that we will not achieve a perfect result and that we should accept the best practical solution, which I respectfully submit is the traditional form offered in post 64.


----------



## Pertinax

u-1 said:


> "What number child are you in your family?".
> 
> Do you think that this question sentence sounds natural? Are there other ways to say the question in English?



This is widely used and readily understandable, but still, in my opinion, a little informal - though there is a precedent for using a determiner like this in examples such as:
_What size waist are you?_

A slightly more formal alternative, similar to Wandle's suggestion for the president, is:
_Where are you in your family, in order of age?_

.. which also generalizes well to height, weight, wealth, beauty, ugliness ... or any other comparison you care to make.


----------



## canadian45

wandle said:


> Nothing will ever guarantee an ordinal answer. We have to face the fact that there is a gap in the language here, that we will not achieve a perfect result and that we should accept the best practical solution, which I respectfully submit is the traditional form offered in post 64.


I see no gap in the language. But there certainly seems to be a strange reluctance to use that particular part of the language.

When I say "guarantee an ordinal answer", I obviously mean that the person answering knows what an ordinal number is and follows the request to give an ordinal-number answer.


----------



## wandle

canadian45 said:


> I see no gap in the language.


The gap in the language is, as the original poster explained, that English has no specific ordinal question-word.
We have numbers: one, two, three, four, five etc. For these, we have a question-word: 'how many?'
_'How many presidents of the US have there been?' _  

We have ordinals: first, second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. 
For these, however, we have no ordinal question-word such as *'how manieth?' (compare: 'twentieth').
_'How manieth president of the US was Bill Clinton?' _

That is the gap. To get round it, we have a standard expression: 'which ... in order of succession?'
_'Which president of the US, in order of succession, was Bill Clinton?'_ 


canadian45 said:


> When I say "guarantee an ordinal answer", I obviously mean that the person answering knows what an ordinal number is and follows the request to give an ordinal-number answer.


There is a difference between knowing what an ordinal number is, and knowing the term 'ordinal number'. 
Most people know what an ordinal number is (they know how to use it), but most people are not familiar with  the term 'ordinal number'. 

Your suggestion depends on people knowing the term. Unfortunately, that is not realistic as regards the majority of English-speaking people. If you put it in your question, you would have to explain it.

Faced with the gap in terms, we can only accept there is no perfect solution, just a best practical one, as mentioned.


----------



## canadian45

Sorry, but you are unsuccessfully straining to defend your position.

What most people know is completely irrelevant! The original poster on this thread on an English forum asked about how to get an ordinal-number answer to a question. It is not a test of the general population. As I said before, the question can only be answered by a person who understands the terminology. 

You keep putting forward a question that doesn't guarantee an ordinal-number answer. I think this discussion between you and me has run its course. I hope to have nothing more to say here.


----------



## JamesM

Can you please give an example of the question as you would put it, canadian45?

Oh... sorry.  I see it now:

"What ordinal-number president was Bill Clinton?"

I suppose it's possible but it seems ungainly.


----------



## wandle

JamesM said:


> "What ordinal-number president was Bill Clinton?"
> I suppose it's possible but it seems ungainly.



Not only is it ungainly, and to most people unclear; it also implies that there is such a thing as an 'ordinal-number president': different, apparently, from other presidents.


----------



## navi

How about:

Counting from the first president on, which president was he?
Counting from the oldest child in the family on, which child are you?


----------



## canadian45

JamesM said:


> Can you please give an example of the question as you would put it, canadian45?
> 
> Oh... sorry. I see it now:
> 
> "What ordinal-number president was Bill Clinton?"
> 
> I suppose it's possible but it seems ungainly.



"ungainly" or 'elegant' is not the issue. It is simply an answer to an unusual but clear quuestion that was asked. And that question is the only question that makes it clear that the answer has to be an ordinal number.


----------



## canadian45

wandle said:


> Not only is it ungainly, and to most people unclear; it also implies that there is such a thing as an 'ordinal-number president': different, apparently, from other presidents.



That's a ridiculous comment.


----------



## JamesM

canadian45 said:


> That's a ridiculous comment.



I don't think so.  The position of the word "ordinal-number" calls for an adjective, as in "which Republican president" or "which American president".  "Ordinal-number" is not an adjective. "Ordinal-numbered" or "ordinally-numbered" would work as an adjective but is still awkward.  The adjective excludes those who don't match its description: Republican president as opposed to Democratic president; American president as opposed to a president of another country; ordinal-number president as opposed to... non-ordinal-number president?

It's clear you are happy with your solution.  It's also clear that your opinion is not shared by everyone here.

I prefer the "in order of succession" as the best alternative presented so far.


----------



## canadian45

Of course "ordinal-number" can be a compound adjective.

I don't plan to waste any more of my time here.


----------



## modulus

son-nie said:


> Good day everyone!
> 
> Please help me out on this one.
> 
> Ineed to know how to ask the question properly if you want to arrive with an answer that deals with order. samples are:
> 
> 
> 1. She is our 13th president.
> 
> 2. This is my third time to watch this movie.
> 
> 
> Help guys,
> I badly need it!
> 
> Thanks a lot


You'd normally start such questions with "how many" followed by something that establishes an order---e.g. before/after, preceded/proceeded, younger/older, taller/shorter, etc.

_-How many presidents came before her?_
This could be answered "12" or "She is/was the 13th president".

_-How many times have you watched this movie before?_
Answers could be "twice" or "This is my third time".

_-How many younger siblings do you have?_
Answers could be "2" or "I'm the third youngest."

Sometimes, the order is implicit and there is no need to explicitly establish one, for example,

_-In which century was she born?_

It should be obvious that we normally don't ask questions in order to elicit a certain syntax in the reply. We ask questions to elicit a response, which can be expressed in various syntactic forms.


----------



## Pertinax

_What number child are you?
What number president is he?
_
I analyse these a little differently.  I read "_What number_" as a determiner here.

It's not uncommon for a noun-phrase to be used in this way.  Examples are:
_What size shoes are you wearing?
What colour tie do you prefer?

_That is not saying that there is such a thing as a "size shoes" or a "colour tie".  Rather, "size" and "colour" are attached to "what".

In contrast, it seems wrong to say:
_What numbered president is he?_
since "numbered" appears as an adjective.

Nevertheless, I consider "_What number president_" a less formal and generally less attractive alternative to "_Which president in order of succession_", and I see "_What ordinal-number president_" on a par with:
_What metric-size shoes do you wear?
What number-of-stripes tie do you prefer?
the woman-next-door's hat_
.. as only marginally acceptable, if at all.


----------



## canadian45

Pertinax said:


> and I see "_What ordinal-number president_" .. as only marginally acceptable, if at all.



Even though I was hoping to have this thread end, I am 'forced' to respond again.
The collective you are forgetting the requirement of the original post and also forgetting the fact that this thread has little if anything to do with ordinary everyday language.


----------



## JulianStuart

canadian45 said:


> Even though I was hoping to have this thread end, I am 'forced' to respond again.
> The collective you are forgetting the requirement of the original post and also forgetting the fact that this thread has little if anything to do with ordinary everyday language.



The original question seemed like an ordinary, even everyday, type of request about how to say something in English.


> I need to know how to ask the question properly if you want to arrive with an answer that deals with order. samples are:
> 1. She is our 13th president.



I still like "What number President was Bill Clinton?" as a way of asking the question to obtain the number (in order) that he represented as president.  You may not get the XYth format, as in "ordinal" number format, in the answer but you get the _number_ - I still think that was what the original question was after!


----------



## canadian45

1) If it is an ordinary request, why is there no easy agreement as to the answer?

2) No, one certainly cannot say that a cardinal-number answer was what the original poster was looking for when (s)he used two ordinal-number examples!


----------



## JulianStuart

canadian45 said:


> 1) If it is an ordinary request, why is there no easy agreement as to the answer?
> 
> 2) No, one certainly cannot say that a cardinal-number answer was what the original poster was looking for when (s)he used two ordinal-number examples!


1) That strikes me as a non sequitur!  As others have noted, English lacks something here "How manyth ....?" or "The what-th ..."  is not easily asked in English, but it is nonetheless a simple enough, ordinary request.  At the very least, it lacks an easily agreed upon answer 
2) it would be wonderful if the OP from 7 years ago were still around to provide such certainty.  The ordinals in the example may simply have been used to illustrate the issue of order and illustrate the kind of question to be formulated. It was the question that was at issue. Having been helped with how to ask the question, the OP might well have been happy with a one word answer, possibly either Thirteen or Thirteenth.  We may never know


----------



## canadian45

JulianStuart said:


> 2) it would be wonderful if the OP from 7 years ago were still around to provide such certainty. The ordinals in the example may simply have been used to illustrate the issue of order and illustrate the kind of question to be formulated. It was the question that was at issue. Having been helped with how to ask the question, the OP might well have been happy with a one word answer, possibly either Thirteen or Thirteenth. We may never know



Actually no, because the original post specifies an *ordinal* answer. (something that I should have remembered in my last post) 
42nd President of USA - how to ask a question with an ordinal answer.


----------



## Cagey

It is not possible to come to  universal agreement on this question, and there does not seem to be much point in continuing this discussion  

We have two sorts of answers: 

1) suggestions as to how such questions are usually asked in English. 
2) suggestions as to how they might be asked, according the rules of English grammar. 

Anyone who is interested in the topic is welcome to read this thread and select the responses that seem most useful to them.  

This thread is closed.

Cagey. 
English Only moderator.


----------



## Li singh

<<Moderator note.  Li Singh's question has been appended to this closed thread. Please read (at least some of) the discussion above to decide which response is most useful to them>>

 Hi
Since I have joined the forum, I have kept it in my mind that it the only ultimate source of English. I have a sentence: 'Tom is the 25th chief-minister of the state' of which suitable question( the 25th) is beyond me. How to make the question. When I asked of of my colleagues, he answered: What is the ordinal number of chief-minister of Tom of the state? 
Thanks


----------



## JamesM

This is a question that seems to be asked of English learners, but it never comes up for native speakers at all.  It's just not a question we would ask.  I don't know why they put you through this torture.

I think there are several threads on this already.   I would modify your colleague's question: "What ordinal position in Chief-Ministers of State is Tom?"  There is no really good way to form this question, in my opinion.


----------



## Elysium

<A further addendum>

So, Biden is the 46th president, but how would we phrase a question to figure that out (giving the chance to answer such a question with a cordinal number)?

I actually have no idea how to ask about ordinal numbers. Is there a specific question word like "whatth?"

Can I ask: "Is Biden  the Xth president of the USA?"

It just doesn't sound good.


----------



## se16teddy

Elysium said:


> Is there a specific question word like "whatth?"


 No. There are various alternatives that might fit different contexts, such a "What number is he?" "What number president is he?" and many more.


----------



## Elysium

se16teddy said:


> No. There are various alternatives that might fit different contexts, such a "What number is he?" "What number president is he?" and many more.


Understood. Thank you.
For example, "What number is he in the presidential line?"


----------



## Rover_KE

See also this thread:

Is "Whichth" possible?

<Deletion: No longer necessary>


----------

