# Coptic, Ancient Egyptian and Arabic



## jjdmk

What is Coptic related to.

Is it ancient Egyption?


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## Josh_

Yes, Coptic is a form of ancient Egyptian.  It is a from a totally different family of languages than Arabic, but some Coptic words have found their way into Arabic, namely Egyptian Colloquial Arabic.


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## jjdmk

Very interesting. Great explanation, thanks!


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## jjdmk

Is it also then related to the Berber languages?


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## Josh_

I can't say I know much about Berber, or even ancient Egyptian for that matter, but I do not think they are in anyway related.  Ancient Egyptian was used around northeast Africa and Berber is predominant in northeast Africa.


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## Abu Rashid

> It is a from a totally different family of languages than Arabic



Actually I think it's from the same family (The Hamo-Semitic family) although this designation is not always used now, and has been replaced by Afro-Asiatic I think.

Although Arabic is obviously from the Semitic branch, I think Coptic is from the Hamitic branch.



> but some Coptic words have found their way into Arabic, namely Egyptian Colloquial Arabic



I've often heard this quoted, but nobody quoting it has ever been able to give me an example of this. Do you know of any words Josh?


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## cherine

Abu Rashid said:


> I've often heard this quoted, but nobody quoting it has ever been able to give me an example of this. Do you know of any words Josh?


Yes, there's the word واحة , it's the example that quickly came to my mind, maybe because it was discussed in another thread.


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## Josh_

> I've often heard this quoted, but nobody quoting it has ever been able to give me an example of this. Do you know of any words Josh?


You can go here for some information. According to that site some words, such as تمساح and واحة come from Coptic. 

I have an Egyptian Arabic dictionary that gives short etymology notes on foreign words. I'll try to compile a short list of words. For starters, though, the word أيوه aywa (yes) apparently comes from Coptic.


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:


> You can go here for some information. According to that site some words, such as تمساح and واحة come from Coptic.


Yes, the Wikipedia article on the Coptic language is very interesting.


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## Abu Rashid

Josh,



> You can go here for some information. According to that site some words, such as تمساح and واحة come from Coptic.


 
I've read this article before. timsaH is not really relevant as it's used in all dialects of Arabic. waaHah is in the same boat too I think. I was more interested in words in Egyptian Colloquial. I've heard many non-Egyptian Arabs claim so many words in Egyptian Colloquial are from Coptic and not from fusHa origins, yet not one of them has ever brought a substantiated example.



> I have an Egyptian Arabic dictionary that gives short etymology notes on foreign words. I'll try to compile a short list of words


 
Don't go to any trouble on my account. And I will feel bad as I have still not come up with the list of references I offered to provide for you.



> For starters, though, the word أيوه aywa (yes) apparently comes from Coptic.


 
This may well be so, as I cannot think of any fusHa word it derives from. But it's strange that it's used all throughout the Arabic world.


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## Josh_

> I've read this article before. timsaH is not really relevant as it's used in all dialects of Arabic. waaHah is in the same boat too I think. I was more interested in words in Egyptian Colloquial. I've heard many non-Egyptian Arabs claim so many words in Egyptian Colloquial are from Coptic and not from fusHa origins, yet not one of them has ever brought a substantiated example.


Well, I think it is relevant in that it shows Coptic words that have found their way into Arabic. It could be that they found their way into Egyptian first, and then from there into standard Arabic.

Doing a quick search I found this site which seems like it might be interesting.

Here is another article I found (in Arabic) which discusses this subject matter and it does suggest, as I mentioned above, that awya is of Coptic extraction:



> *ايوه : تعني نعم ، وتقال**بالأسكندرية أيوووه وتعني نعم*


 


> This may well be so, as I cannot think of any fusHa word it derives from. But it's strange that it's used all throughout the Arabic world.


Yes, it is understood stood all over, but I think most would agree that it is originally from Egyptian Arabic. I have had many Arabs ask me if I speak Arabic and when I respond "aywa" they laugh and say, "Ooh, Egyptian." And then proceed to ask me "izzayyak?" Anyway, that's not relevant; I love to go off on tangents. The point is that while it is understood understood throughout the Arab world it is probably a result of Egyptian Arabic being omnipresent and widely understood.



> Don't go to any trouble on my account. And I will feel bad as I have still not come up with the list of references I offered to provide for you.


All right. If you, or anyone else, is interested the dictionary is called "A Dictionary of Egyptian Arabic" by Martin Hinds and El-Said Badawi.


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## Joannes

Abu Rashid said:


> Actually I think it's from the same family (The Hamo-Semitic family) although this designation is not always used now, and has been replaced by Afro-Asiatic I think.
> 
> Although Arabic is obviously from the Semitic branch, I think Coptic is from the Hamitic branch.


 
One of the reasons Afro-Asiatic is preferred as a term nowadays is that one mustn't assume a Hamitic branch next to the Semitic one. Although the Semitic languages are obviously closely related, this is not the case for the 'Hamitic languages'. So,



jjdmk said:


> Is it also then related to the Berber languages?


 
Yes it is, Berber languages are also Afro-Asiatic. But there is no closer kinship between e.g. Tamazight and Coptic than there is between e.g. Arabic and Coptic.

(Never thought I would be able to make (sort of) a useful contribution in the Arabic forum.  )


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## cherine

*Moderator note:*
*The discussion about the etymology and meaning of the name of Egypt مصر was moved to **this thread**.*


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## clevermizo

The other classic example is in syntax: the post-position of demonstratives and in-situ interrogatives:

عايز ايه؟
كتاب دا

This is also allegedly of Coptic influence. I don't know anything about Coptic though, so perhaps it is not.


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## cherine

clevermizo said:


> The other classic example is in syntax: the post-position of demonstratives and in-situ interrogatives:
> عايز ايه؟
> كتاب دا
> This is also allegedly of Coptic influence. I don't know anything about Coptic though, so perhaps it is not.


We never say كتاب دا  always دا كتاب ; unless you mean الكتاب دا .
I'd only like to add that this is only in colloquial Arabic (maybe even not in all colloquials). 
If it's used like that in fus7a -which is very rare- it's either for poetic reasons (e.g. to keep a rhyme) or for emphasis upon the thing.


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## konungursvia

I think Coptic and Ancient Egyptian are relatives of Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew.


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## suma

Cherine maybe you can ask some of your Coptic Egyptian friends who know something about that language?

I think what Clevermizo was saying is that Egyptian colloquial Arabic has been influenced by Coptic speech patterns for example: عايز ايه؟
كتاب دا putting the _eh_ and _da   _at the end of the sentence as opposed to beginnig which is more standard in Arabic speech. 

So does the ism ishaarah and adaat istifhaam occur at the end in Coptic speech?


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## clevermizo

cherine said:


> We never say كتاب دا  always دا كتاب ; unless you mean الكتاب دا .
> I'd only like to add that this is only in colloquial Arabic (maybe even not in all colloquials).
> If it's used like that in fus7a -which is very rare- it's either for poetic reasons (e.g. to keep a rhyme) or for emphasis upon the thing.



I'm sorry, yes I meant الكتاب دا. I am aware that this is only in colloquial Arabic - but that's exactly the point. We would expect Coptic influence in Egyptian colloquial, if there was any to start with.

I'm not sure if the post-position of دا is really Coptic influence though - I've just read that it is.


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## MarcB

You might find some info here.


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## WadiH

cherine said:


> We never say كتاب دا  always دا كتاب ; unless you mean الكتاب دا .
> I'd only like to add that this is only in colloquial Arabic (maybe even not in all colloquials).
> If it's used like that in fus7a -which is very rare- it's either for poetic reasons (e.g. to keep a rhyme) or for emphasis upon the thing.


 
It's a perfectly acceptable structure in classical Arabic, actually; I've even seen it in _Al-Bayan wa at-Tabyeen_.  It's also commonly used in bedouin and Peninsular dialects.

I think people are correct in saying that there are Aramaic, Berber, or Coptic influences in certain Arabic dialects, but they often overstate this influence and frequently see it when it's not really there (or at least when there is no real evidence that it's there).


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## Mahaodeh

Josh_ said:


> You can go here for some information. According to that site some words, such as تمساح and واحة come from Coptic.


I couldn't find واحة, but I did find تمساح in classical dictionaries; I would imagine that at least تمساح is not a borrowing into colloquial, but a borrowing into fus7a, it could even be pre-Islamic - don't forget that the Arabs, like all other peoples in the region, had contacts with Egyptians since ancient times so some of these borrowings may be very old. Of these I specifically recall قط.



Josh_ said:


> I have an Egyptian Arabic dictionary that gives short etymology notes on foreign words. I'll try to compile a short list of words. For starters, though, the word أيوه aywa (yes) apparently comes from Coptic.



This is definitely wrong; أيوة derives from the classical Arabic construction أي والله and is used in many places in the Arab world.

With regards to Coptic words borrowed into EA, I recall طوب; I was also told (never seen any proof so I wouldn't know) that the Egyptian celebration شم النسيم originates from Coptic - both the name and the celebration, and in Coptic the name has a different meaning.


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## DenisBiH

Mahaodeh said:


> This is definitely wrong; أيوة derives from the classical Arabic construction أي والله and is used in many places in the Arab world.



That Arabic construct is also used in Bosnian (BCS), and at least in Ottoman Turkish as well (not sure about modern Turkish)


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## seyif

Mahaodeh said:


> This is definitely wrong; أيوة derives from the classical Arabic construction أي والله and is used in many places in the Arab world.





DenisBiH said:


> That Arabic construct is also used in Bosnian (BCS), and at least in Ottoman Turkish as well (not sure about modern Turkish)



Dear Denis,

If  أيوة derives from the classical Arabic construction أي والله, yes in modern Turkish we have "eyvallah". But  أيوة  is more likely for "yes", "ok" but eyvallah: http://tureng.com/search/eyvallah.


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## seyif

Is there a distinction between Coptic and Ancient Egypt Language using? It sounds me that Coptic for more likely for the era after Greek influence. You know after Greeks came to Egypt Greek alphabet also started to be used there. In Coptic Museum in Cairo all manuscripts I saw was in Greek alphabet. Of course the religion shift for Christianity has effects that. Was there a change in syntax or in other elements?


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## DenisBiH

Interesting, BCS uses match almost perfectly with the Turkish uses listed in your link.

BCS ejvala(h)
a) "It is so!", "May it be so!", "Well done!"
b) at parting, "Goodbye!"
c) "Thanks!"

My link says the original Arabic meaning is something like "It is so, by God". I don't see a problem with the contracted form developing the meaning "yes". You can compare it with Spanish si developing from Latin sic.


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## Outlandish

The Coptic influence over E/Arabic is often exaggerated by some Coptic researchers. Some go far as to say that words as _wala _(boy) and _3awez _(I want) _balaH _(dates) _baSaK _(spit  "verb") _kakh _(an  exclamation of rejection "even used in one of the Prophet's aHadeeth")  are loan words taken from Coptic, reversing the matter of fact--that  they are some of the many Arabic words which entered the Coptic lexicon,  or that some of them were shared between the language families of  Arabic and Coptic. Words like سميط، سادة، بح، إمبو  could be accepted as of Coptic origin, I believe, although I cannot provide any valid authentication on it. 


It is commonly believed among Egyptians that Coptic is much closer to  Greek than to any other language, namely late hieroglyphic, and that the  Nubian language is the closest living paradigm of hieroglyphic. Coptic  does contain a substantial part of the old Egyptian lexis, naturally,  but remains more to Greek than to any other language, which makes me  question the-only-20% which Wikipidia says is the overall percentage of  Greek influence on Coptic.


There is a difference between _eyvallah _and _evet_.  The first comes from Arabic but I am not sure whether the second comes  from Arabic or not. It seemed to me all the time that the Arabic أيوة came from the Turkish _evet_. During the Turkish presence in Egypt and all the other Arab countries, the Turks pronounced the  تاء مربوطة  at the end or words as a ت while it shouldn't be pronounced. They pronounced حكمة as Hekmat, نعمة as ne3mat, مدحة as medHat, etc. You can easily visualize a Turkish khedive saying to his servant or assistant "_evet valad, evet_". 

Likewise, the Egyptians who-I think-borrowed the word evet from Turkish, relied more on ther pronunciation rules and overlooked the last sound of the word _evet _(t) seeing it as an excess sound which should be removed. Being Arabs they pronounced the (v) as a normal (و). Your comments are welcome.


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## seyif

Outlandish said:


> There is a difference between _eyvallah _and _evet_.  The first comes from Arabic but I am not sure whether the second comes  from Arabic or not. It seemed to me all the time that the Arabic أيوة came from the Turkish _evet_. During the Turkish presence in Egypt and all the other Arab countries, the Turks pronounced the  تاء مربوطة  at the end or words as a ت while it shouldn't be pronounced. They pronounced حكمة as Hekmat, نعمة as ne3mat, مدحة as medHat, etc. You can easily visualize a Turkish khedive saying to his servant or assistant "_evet valad, evet_".
> 
> Likewise, the Egyptians who-I think-borrowed the word evet from Turkish, relied more on ther pronunciation rules and overlooked the last sound of the word _evet _(t) seeing it as an excess sound which should be removed. Being Arabs they pronounced the (v) as a normal (و). Your comments are welcome.


Some dictionaries refer to "emet", the old one(Şemseddin Sami's Kamus-ı Türki) gives "üğat" for "evet"'s origin. These must be old Turkish words. But once I have heard "evet" comes from Sogdian language. 

Your thesis that أيوة can come from evet is interesting. I will think over that!


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