# religion and secular life



## lovelyvv

well,i had never ever seen a real muslim in front 
of my face, i have to tell you this first. what i know about muslims/islam
is that they don't eat pork and they pray 5 times a day. they 
have very strict rules for their daily life. Howevr, recently i had 
a chance to talk with a turkish, who is a muslim and told me 
he was very religous; however, he has a very secular life.
he can drink a little bit, go clubbing, make girl friends, etc.
it is very surprising for me to know this. i am totally shocked,
just like seeing a buddhist monk eating some meat. so do muslims allow to
have a secular life????


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## .   1

There are Christians who follow the word of the holy book to the letter and will do nothing that is not specifically condoned by the holy book.
This must be the case for all religions.
There simply has to be a variation from strict adherance to the word of the almighty whatever to a casual acceptance of the principles across all creeds.

The unfortunate thing about news is that there is often an agenda that we do not know about and exaggeration is the best way to demonise people and beliefs.

We hear nothing about the millions of muslim people who are just like me in the same was as people in muslim countries do not hear about people like me.  The only people? generally making news are extremests and fundamentalists and I am extremely suspicious of anybody who is sure that they know the name of god and that their god is a better god than the god of another person.

.,,
We are all in this mess together.


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## übermönch

Turkish people are by far not as religious as many other muslims, so a very religious Turk is maybe as religious as a very secular Yemenite. I've met two people from Iran and a lybian who would NEVER EVER drink alcohol under no conditions; I've seen several females fully clothed in burqas while bathing or rather floating in the sea on the azure coast of France. Most Turks, Kurds and Azeris I know - and there are many - however don't really take it as serious.  My aunt is married to a hassidic jew and he would rather starve than eat uncosher foods, he also takes it very serious when someone breaks religious laws (for example by fastly descending stairs because it supposedly implies you don't care much about eventually hurting yourself which is a sin) and instantly asks to excuse oneself to god. I also know two radical christian baptistic girls, my former classmates, and feel very sorry for them. They believe in strange things not commonly seen in modern western europe, like that women should not speak up when men speak etc. etc. and they also very oftenly cite the bible. When we watched some english comedy in english lesson, they both asked if they could leave and once the teacher denied they turned themselves away to a wall and started reading something, because they were not allowed to watch TV at all. That really scared me.     By the way, recently (more or less) France put a law forbidding visible religious sings in school. What do you think about it?


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## panjabigator

I think religion should be personal and not openly shared with everyone.  But I limit that view point only to preaching!  I think the French ban is horrible!  The turban (dastaar) for Sikh's is a must and to tell them they can wear their hair up but not cover it is a serious humiliation.  And I see nothing wrong in allowing a woman to dress modestly either.  This doesnt entail that they must wear the hijaab (head scarf) but if they choose to do so, I think it should be allowed.  I dont think the burqa or niqaab would go over to well in western societies though.  

Most of the Turkish people I have met are very very very secular.  And I have never met a orthodox or even remotely religious Irani...not to label!  The most religious muslims I know are Bangladeshi's and Pakistani's.


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## .   1

> panjabigator said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think religion should be personal and not openly shared with everyone. But I limit that view point only to preaching!/quote]
> 
> 
> 
> Well put panjabigator.
> Perhaps this should be the only codicil to The Golden Rule.
> 
> .,,
> Avoiding golden rulers.
Click to expand...


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## Aldin

Well in Bosnia there is 38% Muslims 32%Orthodox Christians 20%Catholic Christians and 10%Other(including Jews)
Well,before the 1992 Bosnian Muslims were highly secular.Even today most of the muslim declaring population drinks some even eat pork,and they not pray 5 times as written.It's very sad to see on first Bayram morning many drunk people.Today Bosnia is offically secular country although religion is an important in every day life because that's the only thing that separates 3 nations of Bosnia.Because of the religion there is some areas with obvious apartheid.
e.g. In same buldings there are two school(Catholic School Centre and High School).There are two doors and those doors are separated by an iron fence.Half of the building(Catholic side) is blue and secular(although officially secular it's in fact Muslim side) is yellow.
I think that religion should be practiced only at home not in public,because all wars are happening because of the religion(at least in my country).
And what good of it anyway.


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## Chazzwozzer

It is not surprising at all. As a Turkish and someone who lives in Turkey, I have many friends like the one you mentioned.

My best friends believes in religion without a doubt. He also said that he read Koran years ago.

He, however,

Never prays.
Drinks almost every night.
Goes clubbing and gets laid.
Doesn't think there is anything wrong to have sex before marriage.
Doesn't think it is wrong to be homosexual. (He's not gay. But I remember that he really enjoyed the movie Brokeback Mountain.  )
Accepts the theory of evolution
Says that he would't marry a woman who wears turban
Does anybody know Bulent Ersoy? She is both transsexual and very religious. He was in the jury of Popstar along with a gay man and a drug-addicted singer. I am not sure if that homosexual man religious but I know drug-addicted singer believes in the religion much. So I mean, things are different in a secular country, you see...


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## maxiogee

Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> He, however,
> 
> Says that he would't marry a woman who wears turban



Please excuse an unaware Irishman, but do women wear turbans?


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## panjabigator

In Sikhism, they can and many do!


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## Chazzwozzer

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Please excuse an unaware Irishman, but do women wear turbans?


 
It's headscarf which is a Muslim dress I am talking about. I know this word is closely associated with Sikhism. 

I also find headscarf very out-dated. I wouldn't marry to a lady who wears turban, either. I have never talked to one in my life, actually


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## Suane

I think that religion should be more personal (as someone has already said), and more about how people should do good things, to be nice to people,to preserve things that God created...etc., not about what they eat, where they go, what they wear...and things like that. I'm also for separation of the state and church (for more religious freedom). I would like the idea, that people should believe in different things they want to believe in rather than to place themselves into different groups with fixed and never-changing opinions and ideas...maybe we would find ourselves sharing more ideas with people that belong now to other religion than with people in our own religion. That's rather interesting. I think that some things that are considered by some people to be the part of the religion belong more to the culture of the country or nation.

And I think that the prohibition about the clothes in school in France is interference to the personal freedom.


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## panjabigator

Not to get off topic, but head scarfs are not associated with Sikhism.  Turbans however are. There is some statistic which states that 99% of the people you meet with turbans are Sikhs.


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## Chazzwozzer

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Not to get off topic, but head scarfs are not associated with Sikhism. Turbans however are. There is some statistic which states that 99% of the people you meet with turbans are Sikhs.


 
By the word, I meant _turban_, anyway. I could recall my favorite Homer quote when I read your post. Don't get me wrong, it's just funny.  

_Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that._


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## maxiogee

panjabigator said:
			
		

> In Sikhism, they can and many do!


I didn't know that.
I associate the word turban with Sikh men, and with very old images of the Ottoman Empire where man are shown wearing very ornate turbans.

My dictionary calles it a man's headdress, wound around a cap or the head, and worn especially by Sikhs and Muslims.




			
				Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> It's headscarf which is a Muslim dress I am talking about. I know this word is closely associated with Sikhism.


Do Turks call the headscarf a 'turban'?



			
				Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> I also find headscarf very out-dated. I wouldn't marry to a lady who wears turban, either.


Isn't that attitude even more out-dated than the headscarf?


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## ireney

Isn't the head-scarf something like ferentze (sp?) or yashmak (sp?)


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## Seana

I have nowhere found word 'turban' described a woman's headdress.
Turban is man's headgear used often in India, countries of the Arabian Peninsula and in Iran. The turban is being rolled up by hand from the long cotton fabric about the 4 m length. 
A little bit modified turbans   were used also  by dressy woman, e.g. in thirtieth and fortieth years XX of age.


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## Lavinia.dNP

I'm living in Paris, and I think that the ban about visible religious signs at school is a limit to freedom, but the problem is that here many young girls are obliged by their family to wear the headscarf, and don't do it by their own will, and perhaps this ban is trying to help those young girls out of this oppressive situation. Therefore, the question is not as easy as it seems.
The problem is also that when Muslims come to live here in France, many of them don't want to be integrated into the french system. They do all they can to remain outside the system in a group of their own, living just like in their country : they want the French State to finance their mosques (while France is a secular State), they want public swimming pools to have a time frame every day for women only, they throw their litter in the street. Moreover, here in France, there are women who refuse to take off their headscarf for ID pictures or when asked by an officer for identification, and I think that this is too much : if you go to a country, you must respect the rules. If I went to some sountry where the headscarf is compulsory I'd have to wear it, therefore, I don't see why here a muslim woman wouldn't show her face when requested for ID purposes.

I'm not against strangers, I'm for freedom, but I think that when somebody moves to a country, he must respect the rules of that country, and not try to make it like his own country.
And if he doesn't agree, the only thing he can do is chosing another country : if I moved to a country where women are obliged to wear a headscarf, and are not allowed to drive, I wouldn't try to break the rules or change them : I simply wouldn't remain in that country if I'm not happy with those rules, or better, I would never chose to move to such a country.


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## panjabigator

Here is Wikipedia's turban article.  Oh, I and I agree with Lavinia to some degree...they should integrate and be French citizens.  I think issues with identification are serious enough where they should be required to comply...in the US, there was a case where a woman was in a burqa (an American convert, if it makes any difference) and she actually got her license in it!  There was a great deal of controversy around it.


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## panjabigator

> I'm not against strangers, I'm for freedom, but I think that when somebody moves to a country, he must respect the rules of that country, and not try to make it like his own country.
> And if he doesn't agree, the only thing he can do is chosing another country : if I moved to a country where women are obliged to wear a headscarf, and are not allowed to drive, I wouldn't try to break the rules or change them : I simply wouldn't remain in that country if I'm not happy with those rules, or better, I would never chose to move to such a country.


But weren't they there before the rule was made?  I think in this case it is a big unjustice to them.  I read somewhere that something like 12% of France is Muslim...that is a rather large minority to allienate.


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## Lavinia.dNP

panjabigator said:
			
		

> But weren't they there before the rule was made? I think in this case it is a big unjustice to them. I read somewhere that something like 12% of France is Muslim...that is a rather large minority to allienate.


 
I think that it doesn't matter if they were there before the rule was made : it would be like if French people claimed that they don't want to respect the rules that were made after they were born. There are lots of new rules that we are obliged to respect even if they are unfair.

I'm not talking about alienating Muslims, that would be a nonsense in Paris where I think that more than half of the population must be Muslim, judging by the faces I see around me in the subway. I only say that they can live peacefully in France without wanting to make France like their country of origin.

And talking about visible religious signs, I have never seen anyone in school with a huge Christian cross upon his/her chest or dressed like a nun.
Nevertheless, I agree that ideologically, anyone should be free to wear whatever they want, as long as it's not offensive, and I agree that the head scarf ban is a limit to freedom.
But let's think about those young girls who are obliged by their family to wear the head scarf against their will, especially in a country where most girls don't. Imagine being a teenager and having to wear a head scarf and the traditional long dress in a country where most girls around you wear tank tops and fashionable low waist jeans. How would you feel?


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## Chazzwozzer

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Do Turks call the headscarf a 'turban'?


Headscarfs are called as turbans by Turks. I thought it was the same in English.



			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> Isn't that attitude even more out-dated than the headscarf?


No, sir. Headscarf is more political than religious in this case. I cannot spend my whole life with a woman who thinks different than me. It's a very long and complicated story, I am not sure how to tell it.


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## panjabigator

I agree, and unfortunately your last question is something I can't answer.  I think you can assume my answer...what a predicament.


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## JazzByChas

I must agree here.

Whatever religion you practice is your personal expression,whether you do it "badly" or "well." However, most countries have their regional and national laws about what kind of deportment one practices in public, and, whether you agree with them or not, you must adhere to them, or, if there are ways to do it, vote against them. But until the laws of that land change, practice the laws of that country. The alternative would be to live in a country where your religion is seen as acceptable behavior.



			
				Lavinia.dNP said:
			
		

> I'm not against strangers, I'm for freedom, but I think that when somebody moves to a country, he must respect the rules of that country, and not try to make it like his own country.
> And if he doesn't agree, the only thing he can do is chosing another country : if I moved to a country where women are obliged to wear a headscarf, and are not allowed to drive, I wouldn't try to break the rules or change them : I simply wouldn't remain in that country if I'm not happy with those rules, or better, I would never chose to move to such a country.


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## maxiogee

Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> Headscarfs are called as turbans by Turks. I thought it was the same in English.
> 
> No, sir. Headscarf is more political than religious in this case. I cannot spend my whole life with a woman who thinks different than me. It's a very long and complicated story, I am not sure how to tell it.



Although I am not religious I would have understood if you had said that you could not spend your whole life with someone who differed from you by religion, but I cannot see why someone's political views would preclude you both from having a happy life together.


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## Chazzwozzer

Religion is also involved but more political. A big majority of those cannot stand Kemalist ideology which Republic of Turkey is based on. You might know six arrows: secularism, nationalism, republicanis and so on.

It's even more than that. But I don't think it's a good idea to discuss them on the forums.


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## karuna

Of course, it is in state's power to enforce any rules it want on its citizens. But it doesn't mean that such rules are just or appropriate in the modern world. Some islamic countries forbid to practise any other religion, except Islam, but such restrictions are violating fundamental human rights. France may have problems with integrating muslim population that may require unpopular measures, however, the law is broader than that and forbids any prominent religious clothing or attributes, that, IMHO, is discriminatory. 

When muslim fundamentalists blame western countries of all possible vices, I think it displays their insecurity of their own religion, inability to keep full faith in the modern word of democratic values and globalization. They are afraid that by accepting the modern values of freedom and free choice they will not be able to keep their traditions therefore they are attacking western ideals. But it looks that the French are also a little insecure about their way of life too. Previously, by distancing from muslim imigrants they created problems with communities, and now they want to catch up by imposing strict rules. But it surely will create much tension.


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## jimreilly

When a religion exists in as many countries and cultures as Islam does, it is going to take many forms, and, when it has as many adherents as Islam does, the way it is practiced will vary greatly. Christianity and Judaism are two other religions for which the same is true.

The range of secular/non-secular practice of all three of these religions is very great, so we shouldn't be surprised to find people at the extremes as well as in the middle. 

I have no personal objection to any individual chosing to be  secular or religious, as long as their choice is not imposed on me or other people against their will.

There was an odd program on public television last week talking about Saudi Arabia and whether, since 9/11, expressions of "hate" had been removed from Saudi Arabian textbooks. One of the examples of such "hate" was that some textbooks said Islam was the only true religion and that all others were false. 

Where have I heard things like that before? In church, of course, and (less) in synagogues (as a musician I perform in many different religious settings). Is such preaching always "hate"? It seems to be the natural tendency of most religions to assert that they hold the only truth and that other ways are false. When such a belief jumps from the personal to the political then there are problems.....


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## ireney

So you call the head-scarf a turban? Interesting! Now I have to find where we got  ferentze (sp?) or yashmak (sp?) from! I would have sworn we got it from you!

Anyway, although I don't agree with extremes ("you _have_ to wear a headscarf" is as bad as "you are _ not allowed_ to wear a headscarf"), I get Chazzwozzer's point but that's only because as a teacher of history and a Greek I know a few things about Kemal Ataturk (sp?) and the radical changes he brought about to what was the Ottoman Empire and became modern Turkey.

Chazz, other people don't really _have_ to know how big the differences between 'Kemalists' and those that are against some of its basic principles are, eh? How about explaining things a bit?  




			
				jimreilly said:
			
		

> Where have I heard things like that before? In church, of course, and (less) in synagogues (as a musician I perform in many different religious settings). Is such preaching always "hate"? It seems to be the natural tendency of most religions to assert that they hold the only truth and that other ways are false. When such a belief jumps from the personal to the political then there are problems.....



A monotheistic religion claims by default, even without elaborating on the subject, that other religions are wrong.


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## badgrammar

I have to concur, all the Turkish people I know, men and women alike, live very secular lives, even those who are strong believers.  It is good that people begin to know a little more about modern Turksih culture, because there are a lot of misconceptions! 

Muslims, like Christians or jews or any other religious group, are more or less interested in following their religious teachings to the letter.  One thing I don't think I've ever heard a Turkish person admit to doing is eating pork! It seems to me that it is probably the one taboo that is respected by most.



			
				Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> It is not surprising at all. As a Turkish and someone who lives in Turkey, I have many friends like the one you mentioned.
> 
> My best friends believes in religion without a doubt. He also said that he read Koran years ago.
> 
> He, however,
> 
> Never prays.
> Drinks almost every night.
> Goes clubbing and gets laid.
> Doesn't think there is anything wrong to have sex before marriage.
> Doesn't think it is wrong to be homosexual. (He's not gay. But I remember that he really enjoyed the movie Brokeback Mountain.  )
> Accepts the theory of evolution
> Says that he would't marry a woman who wears turban
> Does anybody know Bulent Ersoy? She is both transsexual and very religious. He was in the jury of Popstar along with a gay man and a drug-addicted singer. I am not sure if that homosexual man religious but I know drug-addicted singer believes in the religion much. So I mean, things are different in a secular country, you see...


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## panjabigator

badgrammar said:
			
		

> One thing I don't think I've ever heard a Turkish person admit to doing is eating pork! It seems to me that it is probably the one taboo that is respected by most.



I know an Iranian lady who loves Iran but is an Atheist.  But she will never eat pork...that's one thing she'll never do.


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## Ana Raquel

Western Sikh women do wear turban

http://www.mrsikhnet.com/uploaded_images/IMG_3609-704101.jpg

lots of photos here http://www.mrsikhnet.com/


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## panjabigator

Ana Raquel said:
			
		

> Western Sikh women do wear turban
> 
> http://www.mrsikhnet.com/uploaded_images/IMG_3609-704101.jpg
> 
> lots of photos here http://www.mrsikhnet.com/



Nice pictures!  Thank you!  I have only met a handful of women who wear the turban.


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## ireney

badgrammar said:
			
		

> One thing I don't think I've ever heard a Turkish person admit to doing is eating pork! It seems to me that it is probably the one taboo that is respected by most.



I don't know if it is respected by most but I have met a few. At least in Greece they don't seem to mind; At all.


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## Chazzwozzer

ireney said:
			
		

> So you call the head-scarf a turban? Interesting! Now I have to find where we got  ferentze (sp?) or yashmak (sp?) from! I would have sworn we got it from you!


 I cannot find frentze and yashmak on common words list, though. Can you tell me what they mean? 



			
				ireney said:
			
		

> Anyway, although I don't agree with extremes ("you _have_ to wear a headscarf" is as bad as "you are _ not allowed_ to wear a headscarf"), I get Chazzwozzer's point but that's only because as a teacher of history and a Greek I know a few things about Kemal Ataturk (sp?) and the radical changes he brought about to what was the Ottoman Empire and became modern Turkey.


 They say it's not allowed to enter into a governmental or government-owned building with any religious item on. A couple of days ago, I saw a teenager with a big crucifix necklace in the public library. I was glad to see her in as a sign of tolerance. So while I was waiting at bus stop just in front of the library, I was totally disappointed to overhear a headscarfed lady talking on her cell phone: "No, mom! I told you before! I cannot go in the library, I've just tried again but they didn't let me in. I'm now coming home then I'll go to an internet cafe." It's not very democratic to ban any people from accessing to information. That's not the worst, even. I'm ashamed to tell what I witnessed at a Burger King. I am also a strong secular, but I think this kind of _secularism_ is too much!



			
				ireney said:
			
		

> Chazz, other people don't really _have_ to know how big the differences between 'Kemalists' and those that are against some of its basic principles are, eh? How about explaining things a bit?


 Thanks for asking this, ireney!  Those that are against are generally ones who misunderstand it and others are fundamentalists who cannot stand secular and democratic Turkey. Main principles of Kemalism can be found here. For a great source, please see.


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## ireney

Chazzowozer great link! Loved the list (although I haven't heard some of this words used and I am not sure about others; does anfora really mean anchor?)

feretze -says my etymological dictionary- comes from the turkish word ferace. It is the cloth used for Muslim women to cover their face.

yasmaki -acording to the same dictionary- comes from the turkish word 'yasmak. It is the cloth used for covering most of the head and the face of Muslim women.

I agree with you about the library incident. Do you think they let the Christian enter because Christians are not in a position (being a minority I mean) to 'threaten' secularism?


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## Chazzwozzer

ireney said:
			
		

> Chazzowozer great link! Loved the list (although I haven't heard some of this words used and I am not sure about others; does anfora really mean anchor?)


 I had to check an online dictionary. It says that anfora is a container made of clay in which liquids like wine can be kept. So no, anfora doesn't mean anchor. Well spotted.  (Anchor is actually çapa which we borrowed from Italian, zappa)




			
				ireney said:
			
		

> feretze -says my etymological dictionary- comes from the turkish word ferace. It is the cloth used for Muslim women to cover their face.
> 
> yasmaki -acording to the same dictionary- comes from the turkish word 'yasmak. It is the cloth used for covering most of the head and the face of Muslim women.


 LOL. I again had to check a dictionary. It says both of these words are archaic. It's interesting that they are still in use in Greek. 



			
				ireney said:
			
		

> I agree with you about the library incident. Do you think they let the Christian enter because Christians are not in a position (being a minority I mean) to 'threaten' secularism?


 Absolutely, yes. That's what I think. I don't see any other explanations to that. By the way, that necklace was too big not to spot. I mean, it's not that they didn't see it.


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## Victoria32

jimreilly said:
			
		

> There was an odd program on public television last week talking about Saudi Arabia and whether, since 9/11, expressions of "hate" had been removed from Saudi Arabian textbooks. One of the examples of such "hate" was that some textbooks said Islam was the only true religion and that all others were false.
> 
> Where have I heard things like that before? In church, of course, and (less) in synagogues (as a musician I perform in many different religious settings). Is such preaching always "hate"?


 
IMO, _of course it's not hate_! Even if it shades into oppression (and that means that the religion has to have secular power for that to happen) the original intention has nothing to do with hate.
Every group has its given norms, "and animal rights people vs scientists" can get just as sticky and argumentative as Muslim vs secular, Hindu vs Christian etc.

NZ calls itself the most secular country in the world, but I've heard that others do too, especially in Scandinavia - but I don't think statistics mean that everyone from NZ is secular, (I am not) or that everyone from Saudi Arabia is Muslim etc.


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## Chazzwozzer

Victoria32 said:
			
		

> NZ calls itself the most secular country in the world, but I've heard that others do too, especially in Scandinavia - but I don't think statistics mean that everyone from NZ is secular, (I am not) or that everyone from Saudi Arabia is Muslim etc.


I always knew that only the US, France and Turkey were oficially secular and the other states were somehow not completely and offically seperated from church. Excuse my ignorance, that was what we learnt at school. Now I think it's not true, there seem to be more officially secular states than I've ever thought.


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## Victoria32

Chazzwozzer said:
			
		

> I always knew that only the US, France and Turkey were oficially secular and the other states were somehow not completely and offically seperated from church. Excuse my ignorance, that was what we learnt at school. Now I think it's not true, there seem to be more officially secular states than I've ever thought.



 We have no governmental ties to any particular church/religion so that means we must be legally secular, and the Education Act fully says "Free, secular and compulsory" - but it is also culturally true too.


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