# Should Pluto be declassifed as a planet?



## Everness

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2312963&page=1

I was listening to NPR in the car on my way back from work. They were saying that the International Astronomical Union is meeting in Prague to discuss, among other things, if Pluto is too puny to be a planet. Apparently some genius suggested that it should be declassified as a planet due to its small status. 

Those who want to demote Pluto argue that it's smaller than the earth's moon and there are other objects past Neptune that are comparable in size to Pluto. Those who favor the status quo put forth valid arguments to call Pluto a planet. For instance, it has an atmosphere, it goes through seasons, and it has three moons. But what about us, the Pluto fans out there? Is anyone going to consult us? The ninth planet is a part of our understanding of what the solar system is all about. Are the scientists considering what would happen with the mnemonic device for remembering planet names: "My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzas?" 

To add insult to injury, and even if Pluto doesn't get the ax, they are apparently recommending a new planetary classification. There were be 3 categories. Terrestrial planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars), Giant planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune) and a third class that would include Pluto. Guess what name they chose for the third category? Dwarf planets!

Should Pluto be declassified as a planet? Hell no!


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## Mr Chu

No way! Pluto is a planet without doubt. I´d think astroids haven´t been very busy lately


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## Everness

Oh, I see what's going on. Pluto is the Roman god of the underworld. He conducted at least one kidnapping and as a result of his illegal actions winter was created (those who live in the Northeast have all the right to hold a huge grudge against this god).  

_He abducted Proserpina (Gr. Persephone), and her mother Ceres (Gr. Demeter) caused winter in her grief. He kidnapped Persephone so he could marry her. In later times he was largely seen as synonymous with the Greek god of the underworld Hades. Although often envisioned today as evil (due to the fact of his similarities to the Christian demon Satan), the Romans did not view him as such._

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto_(mythology)

Could Pluto be the next target of the war on terror?


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## Mr Chu

Certainly, is a far, small, weird, evil country, I mean planet


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## danielfranco

I didn't know Pluto had three moons until recently... I thought it only had Charon, and and that some other Kuiper belt objects in sympathetic orbits seemed to travel along. But now they even have names: Nix and Hydra.
Pretty much like Earth's "other" moon, Cruithne, that has this weird looping, twisted like a kidney, harmonic orbit with Earth.
I hope they keep Pluto designated as a planet, so that then we can call those other Kuiper belt objects planets, too: 2003 UB313 (and it's moon "Gabrielle"), 50000 Quaoar and 90377 Sedna.
Now, that's really gonna put a crimp in the mnemonic tricks, no?


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## Chaska Ñawi

I think the sooner Pluto is declassified, the better.

It's much more logical to classify the system as the four terrestrial planets, the four jovian planets, the Kuiper Belt, and the Oort cloud.  Counting Pluto as a planet has been a pain from the get-go ..... at least since we learned that, no, it is not bigger than the earth and has a completely different composition and orbit than the other eight planets.

I take my class on a walkabout of the solar system every year.  We start with the sun, walk three paces to Mercury, a few more paces to Venus, and so on.  Once we get past Mars, the distances begin to boggle the kids' minds.  As for Pluto, it's so far out, waaaaay past Neptune, that we can never fit it into even the biggest playground.  

Given that we can expect all sorts of new discoveries in the Kuiper belt, it seems only logical that we start seeing Pluto as the frontier to this next layer of the solar system.


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## maxiogee

If the word "planet" has to be re-defined so that Pluto can be re-classified then it shouldn't happen!


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## Everness

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> As for Pluto, it's so far out, waaaaay past Neptune, that we can never fit it into even the biggest playground.



Yes, I know how Pluto feels...

Había una vez un pequeño planeta azul que vivía en la órbita más alejada del sistema solar más lejano de la galaxia. Estaba tan lejos, que los rayos del sol apenas lo acariciaban. El pequeño planeta se había acostumbrado a tanta soledad, tanta oscuridad y tanto frío. Hacía años que ninguno de los otros planetas se daba vuelta ni siquiera para ver si todavía existía. Desde lejos el pequeño planeta miraba con resignación cómo el brillante sol bañaba generosamente con su luz a los planetas que circulaban en las órbitas más cercanas.

Los días, los meses y los años pasaban lenta y silenciosamente. Un día algo rompió la monotonía. El pequeño planeta vio una luz en el horizonte. “Esa luz no estaba allí ayer”, pensó. A medida que pasaban los días el puntito brillante crecía en tamaño e intensidad. Su curiosidad también. Pero muy pronto la curiosidad se convirtió en temor. “¿Y qué si se trata de algún meteorito que viene hacia mí y me destruye?”, lamentó en voz alta. El eco de sus palabras resonó y se perdió en el oscuro vacío circundante. “Bah, no le voy a dar importancia alguna. ¡No me suceden ni cosas buenas ni cosas malas!”, exclamó esgrimiendo una sonrisa.

Pero la luz seguía creciendo en tamaño e intensidad. El planeta la miraba de reojo tratando de disimular su preocupación. Cierta mañana una luz enceguecedora lo despertó con violencia. Sentía como millones de rayos de luz lo atravesaban pero sin lastimarlo. Sintió un calor enorme, abrumador. Abrió los ojos lentamente y a muy pocos kilómetros se encontraba el cometa más grande jamás visto. Circulaba tan lentamente que parecía haber detenido su marcha. La cara del cometa, como pintada por un niño, tenía miles de lenguas de fuego rojas y amarillas. Arrojaba a su paso pequeñas bolas de color amarillo brillantísimo. El pequeño planeta estaba paralizado de temor. En un momento creyó distinguir una sonrisa que se esbozaba en el rostro del cometa y de pronto se sintió más seguro. El cometa se asemejaba a un carro romano, de regreso de alguna guerra imperial, paseándose orgullosa y victoriosamente delante de la multitud. La larga cola del cometa también se parecía a las fastuosas capas multicolores que sólo los reyes y reinas tienen derecho a usar.

A medida que pasaban los días, el cometa se alejaba más y más. Surcaba el cielo oscuro sembrando a su paso una especie de polvo áureo resplandeciente, casi mágico. El pequeño planeta se miró a sí mismo y se dio cuenta que nada malo le había pasado. Por el contrario, todo era diferente y por primera vez en su larga vida se sentía bien, demasiado bien. Ya no sentía frío sino una calidez reconfortante. También se dio cuenta que ya no necesitaba los rayos del distante sol que le habían llegado a cuentagotas por años. Ahora él generaba y repartía luz.

La noticia corrió rápidamente por las galaxias. Desde miles y miles de kilómetros, otros planetas y estrellas comenzaron a comentar acerca del pequeño planeta azul.

“¿Será un planeta nuevo?”, preguntó uno de los planetas más grandes del sistema solar.

“¡Ah, pero qué azul tan fuerte, tan puro, el de esta estrella! ¿Cómo puede ser que no la hayamos visto antes?”, comentó envidiosamente una estrella distante.

Pasaron las semanas y el cometa se convirtió en un punto apenas brillante en el oscuro firmamento salpicado por millones de lucecitas titilantes. El pequeño planeta siguió atentamente la marcha del cometa hasta que desapareció.“¿Vendrá a visitarme otra vez?”, se preguntó con dejo de escepticismo. “¡Ay, ojalá que nuestras órbitas vuelvan a cruzarse!”, suspiró con esperanza.

Desde ese día, los otros planetas de su sistema solar se dan vuelta constantemente llenos de celo y envidia para contemplar el hermoso y cálido azul que el pequeño planeta destila generosamente.

El pequeño planeta sólo atina a sonreir. No está acostumbrado a tanta atención pero se da cuenta que tampoco la necesita. Ya no se siente solo y ya no siente frío. Una nueva fuerza brota con arrolladora fuerza, desde adentro, desde bien adentro, desde un lugar muy profundo al cual la luz y el calor nunca habían llegado.

Muchos años transcurrieron, demasiados. Pero no hay día que pase sin que el pequeño planeta azul clave su mirada en el mismo punto del horizonte donde un día divisó por primera vez al cometa. Al no ver nada, una lágrima, azul, le brota espontáneamente.


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## tafanari

I think Pluto might not be a planet because it does many unplanetary things (and because of their plutocracy were not allowed in the Planetary Charter). However, once you get named a planet, you shouldn't be demoted. It's humiliating. If it got named a planet without being one then it's somebody else's fault, not the plutonians.


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## brian

I have no idea what any of that Spanish says, BUT...

I honestly think it's a shame that kids grow thinking there are only 9 planets (in the whole universe!) because they are forced to memorize them in grade school.  Sure, those 9 are important, but we now know that there are _many many_ more "planets."  We discover new things inside and outside of our solar system all the time.

The problem is certainly how we define "planet."  Does it have to do with size?  Atmosphere?  Composition?  Mass?  Age?  Moons?  A combination?  The IAU has really never been very specific in its definition of a planet.

I personally think it's all very relative.  For instance, scientists find new objects in the Kuiper Belt (where Pluto is) all the time, some big some small.  Quaoar is about half the size of Pluto.  If Pluto is a planet, can Quaoar be too?  Or if Quaoar is a planet, then shouldn't Pluto be?  Well, maybe.  And what about Sedna and Orcus?  One of the bigger debates concerns UB313 ("Xena") because it's assumed to be bigger than Pluto.

I really think that the best option is to get rid of the idea of "planet" altogether and instead come up with more specific ways of grouping the "objects."  The better our technology gets, the more trans-Neptunian objects (TNOs) we'll find.  I have a feeling there are a lot out there, and the word/designation "planet" is just way to broad and vague.


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## Kräuter_Fee

This is not a new thing. Since the moment Pluto was discovered they've been discussing that. Many consider it a planet, others say it's not. 

As much as I love astronomy... I am no expert so I can't say if it should be considered as a planet or not, but I would say it is because I learned it was one of the 9 planets of our solar system.


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## fenixpollo

Also on NPR, I heard part of a report about trying new things. The study showed that at some point in adulthood, some kind of shift occurs in the brain and people suddenly are not as willing to take risks. Before that, they not only adapt to change quickly and easily, but in fact look for new, strange and risky situations so that they can learn and grow.

Children will adapt to Pluto's *re*classification (_not_ *de*-classification) very quickly, and the rest of us will make do with our old, 9-planet model and our crotchety resentment of the change.

When it comes down to it, it's simply a matter of taxonomy and tradition. Whether we call it a "planet" or an "icy rock" or a "Kuiper object" or a "fruitcake", Pluto will still exist in exactly the same form it was in before we even new it existed. Likewise, a tomato is a tomato whether you call it "vegetable" or a "fruit"; and a pajama is a pyjama is a PJ.  Let's reclassify Pluto and get on with our lives.


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## Everness

tafanari said:
			
		

> However, once you get named a planet, you shouldn't be demoted. It's humiliating. If it got named a planet without being one then it's somebody else's fault, not the plutonians.



Thank you for your support. My fellow plutonians will never forget your gesture. Unlike other contributors to this thread, your life will be spared. Signed: oglethorpe 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plutonians


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## Outsider

danielfranco said:
			
		

> I didn't know Pluto had three moons until recently... I thought it only had Charon, and and that some other Kuiper belt objects in sympathetic orbits seemed to travel along. But now they even have names: Nix and Hydra.


They were discovered earlier this year, and they are extremely small, compared to Charon (which is huge, relatively speaking). Here's a picture.



			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> If the word "planet" has to be re-defined so that Pluto can be re-classified then it shouldn't happen!


The word "planet" had never been defined, until now. The discovery of these objects that don't quite fit the traditional picture of the solar system is what prompted astronomers to come up with a definition in the first place -- which they haven't done yet.


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## Philippa

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Children will adapt to Pluto's *re*classification (_not_ *de*-classification) very quickly,....


I agree! My pupils are often telling me about new discoveries, planet X, the 10th planet etc. and now it seems they may be in luck - our evening news said that the astronomers are voting on Pluto's fate/how to define a planet tonight and that we may end up with 3 new planets to add to the 9 (optimistic of the BBC!): Charon (I thought it was Pluto's moon!!), a spherical asteroid (Ceres) and one further out than Pluto (with roughly twice as long an orbit time). I think it's odd to think of one of the asteroids being 'upgraded' to a planet!
Planets plan boosts tally to 12 
An unusual Culture topic - it would be interesting to hear the views of foreros from Pluto!!
Philippa


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## Everness

Pluto wasn't demoted! Thank you for your support and prayers in our campaign "Save Pluto from Oblivion." http://www.boston.com/news/science/...e_no_longer_panel_declares_12_planets/?page=1

So now we have 12 planets --not just 9-- but the total number of planets could easily climb above 100! I strongly disagree with the rehabilitation of Ceres, an asteroid with too much self-esteem. 

How to remember the planets of our brand new solar system? I liked these two suggestions. 

*Muslim Violence Enables More Counterviolence Just So Us Normal People Can Xurvive*

*My Very Excellent Mother, Ceres, Just Served Us Nine Pizzas, Cheese? Xtra!*

Any other suggestions?


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## Outsider

"Xena" is just a temporary name, I think.


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## maxiogee

Wouldn't this be a great chance to immortalise some random earthling?
Let the appropriate 'governing body' of these things do a series of random selections 
- of a nation,
- of a region within it.
- of an address/location within that,
- of the youngest person at that address.

And name the body with that person's name (or, should they decline the honour, they might choose a name for it).


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## Outsider

I think I would rather they kept the name Xena.


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## brian

I say we continue on with the mythological names...there's plenty more to go...


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## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> "Xena" is just a temporary name, I think.



Michael Brown, an astronomer at the California Institute of Technology, discovered Xena. He dubbed the body Xena after the television series about a warrior princess. 

Moral? Scientists shouldn't watch TV or if they do, they should be told what programs to watch. Otherwise, we run the risk of them calling a planet Xena.


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## cuchuflete

Pluto should join South Dakota in its own class of entity. Both are remote and cold. Neither is represented in the United Nations.  Both are relatively free of political corruption, though Pluto is probably cleaner in this regard, due to a smaller human population.


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## danielfranco

So, besides 2003 UB313 (AKA "Xena" and it's moon "Gabrielle") and Ceres, who else got promoted?
Sorry I haven't read the news...


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## french4beth

Charon is the 3rd (Pluto's moon).



> By the proposed IAU [International Astronomical Union] definition, anything large enough to be pulled by its own gravity into the shape of a sphere and which is in orbit around a star is a planet. The proposal officially recognizes 12 planets (the nine previously recognized plus *Ceres* and Pluto's moon *Charon* plus *2003 UB313*) creates a complex committee procedure for an object to become officially recognized.


(found here)


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## danielfranco

Thanks for the info, Beth!
But, but, but, but, but... Charon!
Oh.
My.
Gato!
So, Charon is not orbiting Pluto anymore? I guess I gotta go back and read the article and see what they're saying... Cuz', if that's the case, there's all this dozens of very round objects going around the Sun, no?
Planet Moon, planet Io, planet Europa, planet Triton...
Wowzers!


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## Fernando

My two cents:

- 800 kms limit is just a disguised way to include Ceres (900 Km diameter).

- I notice that the twin system Charon-Pluto has a center of masses outside Pluto but, for mitologycal reasons, it is disgusting to me to see Charon at the same rank of Pluto.

- Xena is not a proper name. It is weird to give such a warrior woman name to a eccentric planet who flirts with Pluto, Neptune and Charon at a time, with a low mass and strange behaviour. Mmmm, well, allow me a second thought on this.



			
				cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Pluto should join South Dakota in its own class of entity. Both are remote and cold. Neither is represented in the United Nations.  Both are relatively free of political corruption, though Pluto is probably cleaner in this regard, due to a smaller human population.



As a citizen of the closest thing to S Dakota in Spain (Extremadura) I ask you to regret your words. 

And by the way you should notice that your loved no-more-a-planet is a Plutocracy.


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## Outsider

danielfranco said:
			
		

> So, Charon is not orbiting Pluto anymore? I guess I gotta go back and read the article and see what they're saying... Cuz', if that's the case, there's all this dozens of very round objects going around the Sun, no?


Charon is still orbiting Pluto, but its relative size is much larger than that of any other moon in the solar system. So, many astronomers prefer to consider the Pluto-Charon system a "double planet". (Some astronomers also like to consider the Earth-Moon system a double planet.) This is nothing new; only the official promotion of Charon is news.


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## danielfranco

Well, that's just plain silly. The other moons I mentioned are also rather large chunks of rock (bueno, Europa is a chunk of ocean, so they say), but since Jupiter and Saturn are such big brutes, nobody would consider them a double-planet thingy...
Ah, well, it's their party, and they'll cry if they want to... I suppose...


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## Outsider

Wikipedia has an entry on the Definition of Planet.


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## Outsider

It seems there are two rival proposals:

Keep Pluto a Planet!
Demote it!


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## Chazzwozzer

Solar system left 8 planets. Pluto is now a "dwarf planet." Check this out.


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## danielfranco

Awww, man! See, I had no problem with Pluto... Charon was the one kinda bending me outta shape!!!
What can you do? I just hope they come up with a proper name for UB313. I like Douglas Adams' idea from the late eighies: "Rupert".
There, a proper name, much better than "Xena", I think.


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## Bonjules

I don't think we should have any mercy with the bastard.
After all, what has he ever done for us? You can hardly even
see him!
  Demote him, and while you are at it, banish him from
the Solar System!


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## maxiogee

Next thing you know someone'll suggest that nuclear waste be dumped there!


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## KaRiNe_Fr

> Are the scientists considering what would happen with the mnemonic device for remembering planet names: "My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzas?"


 In case of any interest, in France we merely say:
"MerVeTerMaJuSatUrNePlu"
(*Mer*cure *Ve*nus *Ter*re *Ma*rs *Ju*piter *Sat*urne *Ur*anus *Ne*ptune *Plu*ton)


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## Chazzwozzer

Everness said:


> Are the scientists considering what would happen with the mnemonic device for remembering planet names: "My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine Pizzas?"



*M*y *V*ery *E*ducated *M*other *J*ust *S*erved *U*s *N*oodles!


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## maxiogee

These mnemonics are all sun-ist. Who decreed that we 'must' all start nearest the sun?

Never Use Solar Judgements Measuring Earth's Varying Movement


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## ireney

I just read that Pluto will not be classified as a "planet" but as a "dwarf planet". Isn't a dwarf planet still a planet  ? Am I nitpicking linguistically speaking?


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## Outsider

Still a sort of "planet", but no longer a planet _strictu sensu_.


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## ireney

So it's "sort of a planet"? Like bourbon is "sort of OK"? (teazing from a safe distance)


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## Outsider

Don't look at me, I didn't come up with their definition.


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## .   1

I read in a recent New Scientist magazine that we are about to have a reclassification of the Solar System which will result in both Pluto and Charon along with some other rocks and suchlike being afforded 'planet' status resulting in a Solar System of a neat 12 planets.

My Very Elderly Mother Just Sat Under New Parts of the alphabet.

.,,


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## ireney

Not to mention that size was not the only thing that got Pluto declassified. He couldn't even use the size he had to clear the area around him (probably wrong choice of words). So, no size _and_ not knowing how to use it? Declassify him from dwarf planet to pathetic planet I say! 

Oh and he's not even the right shape! Now that's beyond pathetic!


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## Outsider

He is the right shape, actually. According to the definition which was approved, what did Pluto in was only that it has too many close neighbours.


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## ireney

And he shares his orbit too


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## Everness

We'll keep fighting until they give us back Pluto. We are not alone in this fight. Don't give up. Como dice mi santa madre, "Lo ultimo que se pierde es la esperanza".

_A group of over 300 scientists and astronomers have started a petition (now closed) to protest the definition of a planet approved by the International Astronomers Union at a meeting last week in Prague._

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/index.php?p=166


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## luar

Dear Pluto, I wonder how much should you care about what we think about you. Go on with your life! Your celestial body would remain invariable even if we now decide you are a lollipop. Enjoy being yourself, and do not pay so much attention to what we, arrogant human beings, think of you.


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## Outsider

Everness said:


> Michael Brown, an astronomer at the California Institute of Technology, discovered Xena. He dubbed the body Xena after the television series about a warrior princess.
> 
> Moral? Scientists shouldn't watch TV or if they do, they should be told what programs to watch. Otherwise, we run the risk of them calling a planet Xena.


"Xena" has been christened Eris, "after the Greek goddess of strife and discord".


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## Fernando

Quite proper. You do not need to be a Mars satellite to have a "bad" Greek god name.


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## Everness

Pluto has been dubbed asteroid number 134340 to reflect its new status as a "dwarf planet."


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## cuchuflete

Knowing that has made my life complete.  

Mods, feel free to delete this post. It lacks the cultural impact of an asteroid number.


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## geve

This thread seems awfully planetocentric to me 

What we should have done is to ask Pluto what it calls itself. 
Earth might not be a planet according to _their_ definition. Maybe it's not even considered worth mentioning by Pluto's astronomers, so why would Pluto care in what category we put it?


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## Outsider

Don't say Pluto, say 134340

One site has been hit particularly hard by this change. 

Wikipedia has a good page on Pluto, as well.


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