# Ich bin EIN Berliner!



## Jana337

> Die langjährige Vorsitzende, Gudrun Schyman, die die Partei 1998 zur drittstärksten Kraft gemacht hatte, war vor zwei Jahren wegen einer Steueraffäre zurückgetreten. Ihr Nachfolger, Lars Ohly, ein orthodoxer Altlinker mit leninistischem Führungsstil, erklärte alsbald in entwaffnender Offenherzigkeit: »Ich bin Kommunist.« Quelle



Wieso ist der nette Herr nicht "ein Kommunist"?

Danke,

Jana


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## MrMagoo

Ich schätze, daß Kennedy seine Beziehung zu Deutschland besonders hervorheben wollte, daher der unbestimmte Artikel.
Wenn man den Artikel nicht benutzt, dann bezieht man sich auf die Gruppe von Menschen (Berliner, Kommunisten) an sich; benutzt man den Artikel, dann betont man, daß man stolz ist, Mitglied dieser Gruppe zu sein und das wiederum wertet die Gruppe an sich auf.

(So würd' ich's jedenfalls interpretieren) 
Gruß
-MrMagoo


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## Jana337

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Ich schätze, daß Kennedy seine Beziehung zu Deutschland besonders hervorheben wollte, daher der unbestimmte Artikel.
> Wenn man den Artikel nicht benutzt, dann bezieht man sich auf die Gruppe von Menschen (Berliner, Kommunisten) an sich; benutzt man den Artikel, dann betont man, daß man stolz ist, Mitglied dieser Gruppe zu sein und das wiederum wertet die Gruppe an sich auf.
> 
> (So würd' ich's jedenfalls interpretieren)
> Gruß
> -MrMagoo



Logisch - wer wäre schon stolz darauf, Kommunist zu sein? 

Jana


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Ich schätze, daß Kennedy seine Beziehung zu Deutschland besonders hervorheben wollte, daher der unbestimmte Artikel.
> Wenn man den Artikel nicht benutzt, dann bezieht man sich auf die Gruppe von Menschen (Berliner, Kommunisten) an sich; benutzt man den Artikel, dann betont man, daß man stolz ist, Mitglied dieser Gruppe zu sein und das wiederum wertet die Gruppe an sich auf.
> 
> (So würd' ich's jedenfalls interpretieren)
> Gruß
> -MrMagoo


Again, I must be crazy. I thought "ein Berliner" was some kind of jelly pastry peculliar to Berlin. I was told that "ich bin ein Berliner" was simply wrong, in the way Kennedy used it.  

I'm going to go crawl away someplace where I can hide my ignorance. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Again, I must be crazy. I thought "ein Berliner" was some kind of jelly pastry peculliar to Berlin. I was told that "ich bin ein Berliner" was simply wrong, in the way Kennedy used it.
> 
> I'm going to go crawl away someplace where I can hide my ignorance.
> 
> Gaer



No, that's defintely correct. The same goes for job designations:

Ich bin Lehrer.
Ich bin ein Lehrer.
I'm a teacher.

Ich bin Deutscher.
Ich bin ein Deutscher.
I'm (a) German.

Ich bin Katholik.
Ich bin ein Katholik.
I'm (a) Catholic.

Ich bin bekannter Professor an einer Uni.
Ich bin ein bekannter Professor an einer Uni.
I'm a [well-]known professor at a university.

But I totally agree with Magoo's explanation.


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> Again, I must be crazy. I thought "ein Berliner" was some kind of jelly pastry peculliar to Berlin. I was told that "ich bin ein Berliner" was simply wrong, in the way Kennedy used it.
> 
> I'm going to go crawl away someplace where I can hide my ignorance.
> 
> Gaer


 

Hi gaer,

"ein Berliner" is both that kind of jelly pastry peculliar thing that you mean (which btw is called "Berliner" everywhere except in Berlin itself, where it's usually called a "Krapfen") AND also an inhabitant of Berlin.

The same is true for "Hamburger" which is is not only this fast food thingy that you can get at McD*****'* (no advertisements in here *g*) BUT also an inhabitant of Hamburg.

All the best
-MrMagoo


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> Again, I must be crazy. I thought "ein Berliner" was some kind of jelly pastry peculliar to Berlin. I was told that "ich bin ein Berliner" was simply wrong, in the way Kennedy used it.
> 
> I'm going to go crawl away someplace where I can hide my ignorance.
> 
> Gaer



I can understand your confusion, Gaer.  I thought the same as you, particularly because of the fact that Kennedy's apparent mishap has been turned into an age-old joke.  However, I think "ein Berliner" is still acceptable; the reason it's a joke is that it could ALSO mean the jelly pastry thing (which is pretty lekker by the way! ).  This ambiguity (and reason for people to joke) could have been avoided had he said "Ich bin Berliner."

Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## gaer

elroy said:
			
		

> I can understand your confusion, Gaer. I thought the same as you, particularly because of the fact that Kennedy's apparent mishap has been turned into an age-old joke. However, I think "ein Berliner" is still acceptable; the reason it's a joke is that it could ALSO mean the jelly pastry thing (which is pretty lekker by the way! ). This ambiguity (and reason for people to joke) could have been avoided had he said "Ich bin Berliner."
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Well, the German who taught the course I took was in the US military at that time. He told me that when he heard Kennedy say that, he wanted to crawl under a table, he was so embarrassed. He said that the mistake was overlooked because of the greater importance of the statement, that the US would stand up to the Soveit Union.

I accepted what he said as correct. So that makes me very surprised to find out that "ein" sounds OK.

But if MrMagoo and others say it sounds OK, I'm in not position to disagree. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> No, that's defintely correct. The same goes for job designations:
> 
> Ich bin Lehrer.
> Ich bin ein Lehrer.
> I'm a teacher.
> 
> Ich bin Deutscher.
> Ich bin ein Deutscher.
> I'm (a) German.
> 
> Ich bin Katholik.
> Ich bin ein Katholik.
> I'm (a) Catholic.
> 
> Ich bin bekannter Professor an einer Uni.
> Ich bin ein bekannter Professor an einer Uni.
> I'm a [well-]known professor at a university.
> 
> But I totally agree with Magoo's explanation.


But that still leaves me with the same question, which I'd like to hear answered by both you and MrMagoo.

In the above sentences, which do you prefer in MOST cases? Please forget about special emphasis, which always changes things (making them unusual).

Without extra stress, which one of your examples are you going to use?

Gaer


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> But that still leaves me with the same question, which I'd like to hear answered by both you and MrMagoo.
> 
> In the above sentences, which do you prefer in MOST cases? Please forget about special emphasis, which always changes things (making them unusual).
> 
> Without extra stress, which one of your examples are you going to use?
> 
> Gaer


 

No doubt about it: The form _without_ the article!

Except for this special example:
_"Ich bin bekannter Professor an einer Uni."_
which only works WITH an article, without "ein", it's definitely not correct.

Cheers
-MrMagoo


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> No doubt about it: The form _without_ the article!



Agreed.



> Except for this special example:
> _"Ich bin bekannter Professor an einer Uni."_
> which only works WITH an article, without "ein", it's definitely not correct.
> 
> Cheers
> -MrMagoo



Hm, I'm not sure. I know it sounds VERY strange, but are you sure it doesn't work AT ALL? Repeat it twice or three times and try to figure out if it is possible BY NO MEANS?


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Hm, I'm not sure. I know it sounds VERY strange, but are you sure it doesn't work AT ALL? Repeat it twice or three times and try to figure out if it is possible BY NO MEANS?


 
I don't know, I'd avoid it - if you use the article here, you won't be wrong.


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> I don't know, I'd avoid it - if you use the article here, you won't be wrong.



That's definitely correct, but I wanted the other version to have proven/proved.


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> That's definitely correct, but I wanted the other version to have proven/proved.


 

I can't prove it, sorry.
I can tell you though that it _does_ work when you substitute "bekannter" by "emeritierter":
"Ich bin emeritierter Professor".

This might work only in this case or for a couple of adjectives, but the form might analogically spread also to more unusual structures.


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> I can't prove it, sorry.
> I can tell you though that it _does_ work when you substitute "bekannter" by "emeritierter":
> "Ich bin emeritierter Professor".
> 
> This might work only in this case or for a couple of adjectives, but the form might analogically spread also to more unusual structures.



Okay, we should leave this topic here, shouldn't we?


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Okay, we should leave this topic here, shouldn't we?


 
If you want to... I should go to bed now anyways, I need some sleep 
Have a good night - post to you soon 

-MrMagoo


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> No doubt about it: The form _without_ the article!
> 
> Except for this special example:
> _"Ich bin bekannter Professor an einer Uni."_
> which only works WITH an article, without "ein", it's definitely not correct.
> 
> Cheers
> -MrMagoo


OK. But which article are you talking about above? Did you leave out "ein" before "bekannter"? Are you saying that you DO need an article when you add an adjective?

This is what I would expect: "Er ist EIN bekannter Professor."

I had a nap. You are probably very tired. You've written a lot today. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Okay, we should leave this topic here, shouldn't we?


I don't think so, because I (at least) am learning things here. You see, when native speakers disagree, it usually means that the subject being discussed is complicated and that there is more than one "correct" answer. 

Gaer


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> OK. But which article are you talking about above? Did you leave out "ein" before "bekannter"? Are you saying that you DO need an article when you add an adjective?
> 
> This is what I would expect: "Er ist EIN bekannter Professor."
> 
> I had a nap. You are probably very tired. You've written a lot today.
> 
> Gaer



Yep, that's the article I mean: "Er ist (ein) bekannter Professor".

I've talked about this with a professor of German and she agreed that an article has to be used here.
Might be a kind of "total slang wave" that some (sp. young) people drop the article but that's poor German and German learners should avoid that by all means.

-MrMagoo


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> I don't think so, because I (at least) am learning things here. You see, when native speakers disagree, it usually means that the subject being discussed is complicated and that there is more than one "correct" answer.
> 
> Gaer



I agree - it also shows where native speakers have problems with.
It helps me a lot 'improving' my German, too.


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Might be a kind of "total slang wave" that some (sp. young) people drop the article but that's poor German and German learners should avoid that by all means.



Not at all.   

I don't think that's poor German, that's rather wrong Germna. I can't tell you why I suggested that way, but I can tell you for sure that I would never use such a sentence (without the article).


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> It helps me a lot 'improving' my German, too.



I agree. Okay, don't close the topic here.


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Yep, that's the article I mean: "Er ist (ein) bekannter Professor".
> 
> I've talked about this with a professor of German and she agreed that an article has to be used here.
> Might be a kind of "total slang wave" that some (sp. young) people drop the article but that's poor German and German learners should avoid that by all means.
> 
> -MrMagoo


Let me "run this by you" to check.

"Er ist Professor".
"Er ist ein bekannter Professor".

Are these both correct? The first one always seems totally weird to me. The second, because it is like English, seems natural. 

Gaer


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## MrMagoo

gaer said:
			
		

> Let me "run this by you" to check.
> 
> "Er ist Professor".
> "Er ist ein bekannter Professor".
> 
> Are these both correct? The first one always seems totally weird to me. The second, because it is like English, seems natural.
> 
> Gaer



Yep, right.

You can also say "Er ist ein Professor", but the article is usually dropped whenever you talk about the actual job as a state someone is into.

There might be a slight semantic difference, but I can't really figure it out by now...

The article has to be used in "Er ist ein bekannter Professor".


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> That's definitely correct, but I wanted *to have the other version proved/proven.*



Banana fingers?   

Or an unlucky stab at a (perhaps complicated) English construction?


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Banana fingers?
> 
> Or an unlucky stab at a (perhaps complicated) English construction?



Haha.

Banana fingers? Not at all. I hope not.

complicated construction? Not really. It was just a tiring night yesterday. Sorry.


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## gaer

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Yep, right.
> 
> You can also say "Er ist ein Professor", but the article is usually dropped whenever you talk about the actual job as a state someone is into.
> 
> There might be a slight semantic difference, but I can't really figure it out by now...
> 
> The article has to be used in "Er ist ein bekannter Professor".


I think I get it. For now I'll leave out the article if there is no adjective. As a general rule. OK?

Gaer


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## elroy

gaer said:
			
		

> I think I get it. For now I'll leave out the article if there is no adjective. As a general rule. OK?
> 
> Gaer



Good call.  You'll be on the safe side that way.


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## Jana337

Spricht denn Tony Blair kein gutes Deutsch? 



> Ich bin leidenschaftlicher Europäer.



Jana


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> Spricht denn Tony Blair kein gutes Deutsch?
> 
> 
> 
> Jana


Perhaps that adjective is one of the exceptions Jens talked about?

But I have a more basic question: is it possible that these are Blair's words, not a translation of his English?

I have no idea what he knows about any language but English.  

Gaer


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## Jana337

gaer said:
			
		

> But I have a more basic question: is it possible that these are Blair's words, not a translation of his English?
> 
> I have no idea what he knows about any language but English.
> 
> Gaer



I was just joking.  Even if he spoke German, he wouldn't bother writing it in German (did he actually bother writing it himself in English? ). I think he is fluent in French.

Jana


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## gaer

Jana337 said:
			
		

> I was just joking.  Even if he spoke German, he wouldn't bother writing it in German (did he actually bother writing it himself in English? ). I think he is fluent in French.
> 
> Jana


I meant that I had assumed the "words" of Blair, in German were translated from a speech in English. As to whether he wrote those words himself, even in English, I think most politicians write very little of what they say (although this no always because the can't).

I was fairly sure that Blair either did not speak German OR only a little, so I assumed you were referring to the adjective without the article. Am I on "the right page"? 

Gaer


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## Jana337

gaer said:
			
		

> I was fairly sure that Blair either did not speak German OR only a little, so I assumed you were referring to the adjective without the article. Am I on "the right page"?
> 
> Gaer



As usual. 

Jana


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