# New Forum Suggestion -- Newbie



## cdowis

I suggest that you create a forum for beginners.  It can be very intimidating to ask questions in the "regular" forums.  I believe you will appeal to a whole new audience, when there is an understanding that the person is a newbie.


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## El escoces

cdowis said:


> I suggest that you create a forum for beginners. It can be very intimidating to ask questions in the "regular" forums. I believe you will appeal to a whole new audience, when there is an understanding that the person is a newbie.


 
Anyone would think we were all monsters! 

Welcome to the forums, newbie - I hope you have lots of fun here!


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## Trisia

Hi, welcome to the forum! 

Right under your user name there's a label that says "junior member." That usually means we won't grind your bones to make flour... yet 
For starters, here's a thread you might be interested in: FAQ: How New Forums are Created

Seriously now, we're a friendly bunch, and I see no reason for creating a welcome newbies forum. We have loads of new registers every day. Nobody can take care they all feel welcome and chat with them, it would mean both neglecting the regular threads and the newbies (people register here because they're into languages, and they have questions to ask and answers to give).

If you post on a normal thread, or ask a question, you'll see that members are more than happy to help you with your linguistic issues and slip in a little welcoming message.


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## coquis14

cdowis said:


> I suggest that you create a forum for beginners. It can be very intimidating to ask questions in the "regular" forums. I believe you will appeal to a whole new audience, when there is an understanding that the person is a newbie.


 Why do you think that?
 I always try to be as nice as possible , I know there are people who are kind of rude but just ignore them.As times goes by you'll note a good atmosphere.

Best regards and welcome


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## cdowis

You may be right, but I think a newbie would feel more comfortable in a special forum for the beginners.  They can ask questions on grammar, vocabulary, culture, etc all in the same forum.

It is a forum to "hang out", so to speak, with their special needs in mind.

I have participated in other specialized forums -- magic, financial trading, etc, and they have a beginner's forum and I think that you will appeal to a wider audience, just for them.  They can then "graduate" to the other forums.

Just a suggestion.


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## Trisia

A single forum for vocabulary, grammar _and_ culture, in _all languages_, for _beginners_?

I appreciate what you're trying to say, but in such a large forum that wouldn't work. We try to treat everybody as nicely as possible, and hurdling the confused newbies in one large melting pot could only result in chaos.

I'm afraid there isn't much of a chance that such a forum will ever exist as part of WRF.


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## El escoces

cdowis said:


> You may be right, but I think a newbie would feel more comfortable in a special forum for the beginners. They can ask questions on grammar, vocabulary, culture, etc all in the same forum.
> 
> It is a forum to "hang out", so to speak, with their special needs in mind.
> 
> I have participated in other specialized forums -- magic, financial trading, etc, and they have a beginner's forum and I think that you will appeal to a wider audience, just for them. They can then "graduate" to the other forums.
> 
> Just a suggestion.


 
Now that you've got the first post over with - even though it was a bit of a cop-out! - you're not a newbie any more: so stop being such a wimp!! (We've stopped being quite so nice to you ) None of us has all the answers, we all make mistakes...we don't know who you are...  There is absolutely no reason to feel bashful.


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## L'irlandais

cdowis said:


> I suggest that you create a forum for beginners.  It can be very intimidating to ask questions in the "regular" forums.  I believe you will appeal to a whole new audience, when there is an understanding that the person is a newbie.


Hello cdowis,
I agree, a "sandbox" type sub-forum here under the additional forums would be quite useful, not just for newbies but maybe even fors moderators in the long run.  Easing people into the forums, for their first few posts.  Why not call it the place where "*Questions are Frequently Asked*" *forum*.  Without such a forum, where do the topics in the FAQ come from?
~shrug~  Haven't found the "wishlist" to add it to anywhere around here, just yet.


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## Nunty

(Not posting as a mod here.) Well, this is the place to ask questions and make suggestions about how the forums work.

I think it would be a shame to segregate new members. What would be the point? Would you want to keep old members out?  

(Posting as a mod here.) If someone feels that they are being hassled by another member, newbie or senior or mod, they are always welcome to contact their favorite mod for help.


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## cdowis

Basically the newbie forum is for new members to ask questions, and for those experienced members who have a special interest in helping the beginner.  It does not exclude anyone from participation.  But the answers from experienced members is expected to be directed to the basic/intermediate level.


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## cdowis

Here is an example of a newbie thread -- "What suggestions would you give for studying Spanish when I have limited access to native speakers"

"Can someone give me a comparison of system A and system b for learning Spanish"


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## Tagarela

Hi,



cdowis said:


> Here is an example of a newbie thread -- "What suggestions would you give for studying Spanish when I have limited access to native speakers"
> 
> "Can someone give me a comparison of system A and system b for learning Spanish"



Well, it is an intersting subject. I have always thought about an Welcome/Introduce yourself forum - but probably it is "out of the scope of forum". When I joined Word Reference forums - and I am almost sure I am not alone - I really wondered why things here are so mmm "closed". But as time passes you will realize that it is for the better of the organization. From time to time you will be more "corajous" and slip a little out of rules, and depending on the moderator this "out of rule" post of yours may not be deleted. 

The forums have an objective to be fulfilled - solve language doubts, and because of that some things are not allowed. Okay, there are always the recurrent questions - as the two you did - what is the best way to learn Martian if I live in Jupiter? We don't have too much room for this here, but depending on the context, it can be discussed. The problems about "systems" is that most of times they are related to books and trademarks and the forum have their rules about advertisement and copyrights. 

For last: welcome, I hope that you like it here. 

Good bye.:


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## Loob

I rather like the idea of a newbie forum.  Not for answering grammar/vocabulary questions (they belong in the main forums) but for answering the sort of questions that newbies have, like "where has my 'moved' question gone?"

I love WRF, but I still remember how mystifying - almost frightening - I found it at the start.  Maybe we could have a newbie forum as a subset of _Comments and Suggestions_?


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## Vanda

Besides what everybody has already said, we do have - "quoting Loob", - _a newbie forum_


> answering the sort of questions that newbies have, like "where has my 'moved' question gone?"


 here. 
Well, almost everything is there.


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## Loob

You're right, Vanda, it's a terrific thread!

But it took me, as a newbie, a long time to find it


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## alexacohen

cdowis said:


> Here is an example of a newbie thread -- "What suggestions would you give for studying Spanish when I have limited access to native speakers"
> 
> "Can someone give me a comparison of system A and system b for learning Spanish"


 
But the trouble is that this is not that kind of forum. All right, so I felt intimidated at first by a few very senior members with thousands of posts. Now I´m probably the one who intimidates newies.

But I don´t consider that a ghetto is a good idea, really.

Loob, I must be the weirdest forera you have ever met. I read all the rules plus FAQ before registering. That I have never been able to comply with the rules is another question. Shame on me!


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## ajo fresco

Hi cdowis,

I think everyone feels a little intimidated at first; but it doesn't take long to get the hang of it. 

If you do your best to follow the Forum Rules (there's an abundance of newbies who don't ) and approach things with a good attitude (and I'm in no way suggesting that you haven't!), you'll find many friendly foreros who won't hesitate to offer their help and guidance.  

Welcome to the forums and enjoy!

Ajo Fresco


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## danielfranco

Erm… What are these "rules" wherof you speak? So far, the only thing I haven't clicked in these forums is the "Rules/FAQ" thingy…

So…

Yes, please: get all them n00bs outta circulation. We'll catch them on the flip side, ya know?

One more rambling: I remember when I invited one of my best friends to these forums… He said: "Yah, thanks so much for throwing me to the sharks. You coulda told me I needed a dictionary, a thesaurus, and a lawyer to speak to those nerds…"

Anyway, enough with the funnies…

I think the main attraction for people like me (some people are feeling rather alarmed at this moment, realizing that there could be more guys like me…) is that these forums are equal-opportunity for n00bs and veterans alike when it comes to grilling, roasting, and vivisecting each member that dares write anything at all in the forums. I love it! The challenge of finding the _bon mot_ is exciting! And the certainty that even the tiniest misplaced period might have people descend on you like feeding-frenzied piranhas!! Oooooh! I shiver at the thought!

Why would we deny the n00bs or ourselves such pleasures?

Laters!
D


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## Loob

I think there are two separate issues here.

(1) language forums: newbies should absoutely not be segregated here

(2) "help on the way WRF works". I like the idea of a _Comments and Suggestions _sub-forum where newbies could, without fear, ask the "idiot child" questions that most of us have when we start contributing to WRF.

Is it really only me that remembers how mystifying WRF was when I first began posting?


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## L'irlandais

Loob said:


> Is it really only me that remembers how mystifying WRF was when I first began posting?


No, I quite agree, that the ground rules, are only now beginning to sink-in/make sense with me (after a year and a half).  So I do sympatise with "Newbies" posting first time is a daunting task.
Worst still, it seems to me that 9 out of 10 Newbies get smacked wrists, be it for Titles not just right or lack of context, or whatever.





			
				Francis BACON   said:
			
		

> "He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?"


   Come-on Mods, asking for a "Sand-box" sub-forum isn't going to wreck the way these forums fonction.


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## Trisia

I read all the rules and the guidelines before posting, and still I self-deleted one of my first posts as off-topic. 

I think that anyone asking something in the C&S forum or by PM to a mod would be treated nicely.

I remember being a new member and mentioning in a thread that I didn't know how to post links. I got a message from a Fr/Eng moderator within minutes, explaining matters and giving a link to the thread Vanda mentioned.
That and the warmth people showed me even if I was only a newbie made me fall in love with this place. Maybe others are different, but I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Grekh

I don't think it's necessary to create a special section for newbies, I think this forum works perfectly as it is now, and the rules are very clear. The newbies are to read them, if they don't then it's up to them how they do in the forums. I never felt intimidated when I was a newbie, I just think this is just another forum like the others, with very friendly and willing to help people.


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## sokol

I haven't read _any _of the rules before posting first.

In fact when I discovered that there's such a place like WordReference I immediately registered and began posting at once - and my very first posts were immediately corrected by moderators for capitalisation and punctuation. 

But I can see that some newbies might be frightened at the beginning.

I think Loob has hit the nail on the head here:



Loob said:


> (1) language forums: newbies should absoutely not be segregated here


I agree, this is very important: newbies should post in the language forums. We do not want a 'newbie ghetto', right? (I at least don't.)



Loob said:


> (2) "help on the way WRF works". I like the idea of a _Comments and Suggestions _sub-forum where newbies could, without fear, ask the "idiot child" questions that most of us have when we start contributing to WRF.


A newbie's question subforum to Comments & Suggestions would be _a_ possibility, yes: why not, let them ask about how to post and what they've done wrong.

But on the other hand, newbies also could post their questions here on C&S - and some do. Probably because many don't even realise that there's a C&S forum.
Another thing though: if a 'Newbie Questions' subforum would be created this might attract such numbers of newbies that moderators would have a tough job maintaining that one.

From the point of view of a moderator I'd say that it would be a good thing if newbies could ask such questions (about posting, about what happened to deleted posts and so on), or more precisely would be encouraged to do so - because of course they already can do this here, in C&S.

But if this would develop into a chatty forum (and I fear it would) this could become problematic (both concerning the frequency of posts in the Newbie Forum - which would need moderation, obviously - and also discipline in the language forums).
And WordReference anyway isn't a forum to chat; there are plenty other places on the WorldWideWeb where you can do that. 

So basically I think no change is needed.

Because the thing is that if newbies were encouraged in the header of C&S to 'ask newbie questions' (or if a newbie subforum would be created) plenty will start new threads about any topic - even clearly language related topics which should be posted in the language forums anyway.


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## Loob

Of course newbies can do this in C&S.  And I did.

But I still think it would be great if there was a (sub-) forum that said "Newbies start here".

It could point to (a) the rules and (b) the C&S sticky that tells people how to do so many things with WRF...

And answer "idiot-child" questions.

I suspect I'm a lone voice.


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## sokol

Loob said:


> But I still think it would be great if there was a (sub-) forum that said "Newbies start here".


Well, "Newbies start here" would be a good header for such a potential subforum, Loob, and set up like this it probably wouldn't be a bad idea after all.

It would probably help both newbies (to integrate) and moderators (if less random newbie posts in the language forums were the results).
I'm still sceptical but you're beginning to convince me; what I'm most sceptical about is wether this newbie (sub)forum would not begin to constitute a community of its own, with some foreros only ever posting there instead of in the language forums.


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## cdowis

sokol said:


> I'm still sceptical but you're beginning to convince me; what I'm most sceptical about is wether this newbie (sub)forum would not begin to constitute a community of its own, with some foreros only ever posting there instead of in the language forums.


 

I think most of the experienced members will stay out of the newbie forum, so eventually the beginners will wander into the regular forums to ask their questions.


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## El escoces

cdowis said:


> I think most of the experienced members will stay out of the newbie forum, so eventually the beginners will wander into the regular forums to ask their questions.


 
If the more experienced members stay out of the newbie forum, who is going to answer the newbies' questions?  Only the mods?  Step forward volunteer mods...

Otherwise, you will just create a forum for newbies where they chat (bitch?) about getting started in the forum but don't actually get immediate assistance.

For me, a better solution is as follows:

newbies receive an automatic email on registering as a member, providing them with links to "WRF for Dummies" stickies with general advice on how to get started
WRF creates some sort of link where members can identify the mods for a particular language forum (I still don't know exactly who all of the mods are for English only, for example)
newbies are told that any specific questions they have can be directed to the appropriate mods by PM - this would have a lesser impact on the workload of the mods than having to monitor a newbie sub-forum


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## cdowis

In my previous post, I said that there will be experienced members who have the patience and enjoy working with beginners. Yes, there will be willing volunteers.

And you think answering PM's is less work for a mod? Then each PM must be posted, otherwise they will continue to get the same question. But you have a good idea, and may work better than a dedicated forum.

Now all we need is someone to volunteer for the "WRF for Dummies" and to answer PM's.  Does not need to be a mod.  Just someone patient and willing to word with beginners.


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## Nunty

El escoces said:


> [...]
> 
> newbies receive an automatic email on registering as a member, providing them with links to "WRF for Dummies" stickies with general advice on how to get started


All the forums have stickies at the top of the index page with useful information, not only about how to post, but also links to other resources. Yes, the person has to look, but I don't think it is an exaggerated expectation.


> WRF creates some sort of link where members can identify the mods for a particular language forum (I still don't know exactly who all of the mods are for English only, for example)


The moderators for each forum are listed at the bottom of that forum's first index page. A list of all WordReference moderators can be found by following the View Forum Leaders link on the main forum page, just after the list of forums.



> newbies are told that any specific questions they have can be directed to the appropriate mods by PM - this would have a lesser impact on the workload of the mods than having to monitor a newbie sub-forum


Most people don't seem to have a problem getting started, as far as I can see. Of course we can only see the people who actually start. Hmmm. 

I can't speak for the other forums, but I imagine they work much as we do in English Only. Most of what we do as mods is by PM; what you see in the forums (deletions and edits) is only a small part of it. We often PM new members who seem to have trouble getting the hang of things with hints, suggestions and encouragement.

It's great to see that we're actually doing what someone thinks we _should_ be doing!


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## ireney

Just so I get a concrete idea of what we are talking about, what would that forum _be_ exactly (purpose, content etc)?


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## El escoces

The problem of course, as N-T has just highlighted, is that people (like me) don't open their eyes and read what's in front of them.

For what it's worth, although I posted that suggestion I do, as I indicated in post #2, believe that the current system works adequately, so I'm not actively advocating change.


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## Xiroi

I'm really trying to get your point but I still don't. Let me know if I'm folllowing you.

You seem to assume that newbies = begginers in a language. That's not the case, there are newbies who are fluent, or simply native speakers (like those participating in monolingual fourms). So you want a subforum for beginners in a language, am I right?

If such a subforum was created how would it be? a: One subforum for each language? or b: One single huge subforum for beginners? 

a: let me tell you something: most of those basic questions have already been asked and are available in the forums, so a subforum for beginners (or links sent by mail or some other way) where they can learn how to make searches and benefit from thousands of previous threads would be most useful. I know there are stickies but I still think a link to a specific "welcome area" could be useful, where besides the Rules you can find all those tricks and suggestions the mods send by pm. Something along the lines of that thread about how to post/quote (with images and everything, it really helps and it's a lot more appealing to read than a long text... like my post) explaining how to use the search engine. Not everybody knows how to.

Believe it or not "can someone explain the difference between ser/estar?" or "imperfecto/indefinido" or "do/make" in English have been asked so many times that most beginners wouldn't have to bother to open a new thread for that. On the other hand we are encouraged to post on previous threads if the info on them is not enough, rather than opening a new one asking the same thing and hoping for a better answer.

b: scrolling through pages and pages where begiinners post their basic questions about any possible language would be most discouraging, imho. This is not a mere forum about a subject, but about many different languages and creating a single beginner forum for all of them would be rather pointless and probably not very convenient unless you enjoy scrollnig through stuff you're not the least interested in.

On the other hand , the "regular" forum does NOT imply posting advanced questions, you'll find all kinds of discussions, from the very basics to nuances not too many foreign students will ever bother with. Yet the same people who help a beginner can also post in very advanced thread. If you "divide" the forum in two, beginner and advanced, where do you draw the line? Sorry, I can't see any advantage in it.

As for being intimidating, all I can say is that it may vary from individual to individual. In my case I used the dictionary for months, and read related threads, before registering. Still I wasn't an active poster either, even if I kept on using the dictionary and checked previous threads. I was familiar with the forum's do's and dont's before I started to post regularly. "Funnily" enough my first pm was from a forero with an impressive number of posts who was as rude and arrogant as he could be. Had I not visited the forum for a long time I would have never come back, but fortunately I knew better.



cdowis said:


> In my previous post, I said that there will be experienced members who have the patience and enjoy working with beginners. Yes, there will be willing volunteers.


That's exactly what we do here, all of us who answer, we do it voluntarily because we want to help. Those who are not interested in simple questions will not answer them, others will. Others choose to answer those posts with few or no replies at all... Believe me, it is working. However many times newbies (beginners or not) are referred to previous threads where that specific question (basic or advanced) has already been discussed (sometimes ad nauseam).



cdowis said:


> Now all we need is someone to volunteer for the "WRF for Dummies" and to answer PM's. Does not need to be a mod. Just someone patient and willing to word with beginners.


Well,, on one hand that's a mod's job, actually. On the other, someone willing to work with beginners is just part of being a regular member for many (most?) of us. And I must say I don't like the name "WR for dummies" as WR is ACTUALLY very user-friendly.



cdowis said:


> I think most of the experienced members will stay out of the newbie forum, so eventually the beginners will wander into the regular forums to ask their questions.


That's an assumption you're making and I can't see where it's coming from. If you were active in this forum you'll see it's just not the case. Lots of educated people will happily answer simple questions.

I seem to detect you kind of want the forum to be more teaching oriented, am I right? I don't know if that is something WR would think of doing but it certainly is NOT what it is right now, still you learn a lot here.

So I suggest you do give the forum a try and you'll soon see how good it works. It's understandable that you compare it with other forums BUT you can't really see WR's flaws if you haven't tried it and seen how it works.

IMO, if it ain't broken, don't fix it.


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## cdowis

I think you have brought up the basic question, what it the point of a beginner's forum. Let me give you a specific example from my first entry ==>>

I posted a phrase that I did not understand. Someone pointed out my lack of accents and gave me a link on how to add accents. That was very helpful.

Anyway, the real purpose of the post was not only to understand the specific translation, but how the phrase works so that I can understand general rules of Spanish. Suddenly my thread was full of ==stuff== that was way over my head with grammatical rules, written not in English but in Spanish.

I am trying to learn how Spanish works with that specific example, not the detailed analysis that advanced members are interested in.

Later in the same thread I asked a pretty basic question regarding the use of accents, but it was ignored because the focus was then on grammatical structure, not some newbie question on the use of «»

A newbie may branch out in a thread, asking related questions, instead of adding new threads.

I want to understand "lo lleva puesto" which appears to be using two verbs, a similar construction in the original thread with two verbs. The actual thread was intended to understand how two verbs (neither was an infinitive) work together rather than a detailed analysis of a specific phrase.

I notice that most of the threads on grammar are written in Spanish, obviously for the advanced student.

Oh well, perhaps there is another forum more appropriate for learning how the language works for the newbies.

Any suggestion?


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## El escoces

cdowis said:


> I think you have brought up the basic question, what it the point of a beginner's forum. Let me give you a specific example from my first entry ==>>
> 
> I posted a phrase that I did not understand. Someone pointed out my lack of accents and gave me a link on how to add accents. That was very helpful.
> 
> Anyway, the real purpose of the post was not only to understand the specific translation, but how the phrase works so that I can understand general rules of Spanish. Suddenly my thread was full of ==stuff== that was way over my head with grammatical rules, written not in English but in Spanish.
> 
> I am trying to learn how Spanish works with that specific example, not the detailed analysis that advanced members are interested in.
> 
> Later in the same thread I asked a pretty basic question regarding the use of accents, but it was ignored because the focus was then on grammatical structure, not some newbie question on the use of «»
> 
> A newbie may branch out in a thread, asking related questions, instead of adding new threads.
> 
> I want to understand "lo lleva puesto" which appears to be using two verbs, a similar construction in the original thread with two verbs. The actual thread was intended to understand how two verbs (neither was an infinitive) work together rather than a detailed analysis of a specific phrase.
> 
> I notice that most of the threads on grammar are written in Spanish, obviously for the advanced student.
> 
> Oh well, perhaps there is another forum more appropriate for learning how the language works for the newbies.
> 
> Any suggestion?


 
Newbie or not, if you feel your question hasn't been answered, you are entitled to say so: to call the forum to order, if you like.  And in the Spanish-English forum you are entitled to request that the answers are given to you in English, if you so require - most of the guys in that forum will be bilingual and will accommodate your request.

Your last post does however bring us back to what is perhaps the essential problem-  that what you are seeking is a language lesson, whereas the purpose of WRF is to seek views from others on specific meanings and usages, with specific examples or attempts.  That, perhaps, is the real reason you are experiencing some difficulties.


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## sokol

cdowis said:


> Anyway, the real purpose of the post was not only to understand the specific translation, but how the phrase works so that I can understand general rules of Spanish. Suddenly my thread was full of ==stuff== that was way over my head with grammatical rules, written not in English but in Spanish.


You mean your 'déjame' thread, right?

I've taken a quick look at it.

To ask how to do accents and other technical aspects are not a discussion topic because there are plenty of stickies already explaining this; here the Spanish forum sticky.
But a forero was nice enough to give you a link - so problem solved, no need to discuss anymore, right?
(The problem is that many foreros do not even realise that we have those very useful stickies let alone read them.)

Your question then was answered - I would say sufficiently so.
This later question of yours then is off-topic - it does not address the topic of the thread. Therefore foreros just ignored it.

Now, concerning these symbols        «» (if this was your question): they are used instead of your quotation marks and mean exactly the same. There is no need for you to use them, "" will do just as well (and is what Spanish foreros will use typically I think), so this question too should be answered.

None of your fellow foreros might have realised in this thread that you did refer, with this later question, to the Spanish table used for writing accents (where they are listed); I didn't either, at first.
You just may ignore «», or use if you like. So I hope that question is answered.
(You could have asked this question by PM, any forero or moderator of your choice - or you could have posted here in C&S.
This question anyway - «» = signs - is no discussion topic for the language forums.)

Now concerning the discussion broadening: if you think that your question hasn't been answered sufficiently please just say so - you are entitled to ask for what is still not clear.
And if your Spanish isn't good enough yet to understand a discussion in Spanish then ask nicely for English answers. 

But apart from that it is okay - and happens frequently - that a very simple question like yours develops into a discussion between native speakers: this you should accept, it is how this forum works.
How things should be done is to first answer the question put by a forero (and in a way that he or she can understand) and then let discussion deepen and widen.
It is not acceptable if a discussion runs off-topic, but as long as the topic of the thread is addressed this is not only okay but appreciated, even if the thread opener no longer is able to participate because he or she isn't yet proficient enough in the language concerned.
You may later benefit of such threads - when your Spanish is better and you search for a particular word or phrase or whatever, here in the forums.

Such as explained above by me also is put in stickies - at least in German forum we have one like that.

So concerning the language questions in any case the language forums should be used; and for other questions, if you don't find help in stickies, you may ask us by PM or post in C&S. That's how it is now.

Your newbies' forum suggestion then only would apply to those "other questions" (like "what is «»"). Right?


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## Loob

El escoces said:


> For me, a better solution is as follows:
> 
> newbies receive an automatic email on registering as a member, providing them with links to "WRF for Dummies" stickies with general advice on how to get started
> WRF creates some sort of link where members can identify the mods for a particular language forum (I still don't know exactly who all of the mods are for English only, for example)
> newbies are told that any specific questions they have can be directed to the appropriate mods by PM - this would have a lesser impact on the workload of the mods than having to monitor a newbie sub-forum


I really like this idea of Scottie's. It would have helped me enormously


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## El escoces

Loob said:


> I really like this idea of Scottie's. It would have helped me enormously


 
_Please_ don't get me into trouble, Loob 

Nun-T has already explained why my various ill-thought suggestions are unnecessary...


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## Loob

I'm not trying to get you into trouble, Scottie

I haven't re-read Nunty's answer to you. But I think the idea of having an automatic email/PM saying "newbies start here" - "here" being Rules/FAQ + C&S thread telling people 'how to do things with WRF' + suggestion that they read the "before posting" sticky in their forum of choice - is an absolutely brilliant one!

I really hope it's followed up


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## cdowis

sokol said:


> You mean your 'déjame' thread, right?
> Your newbies' forum suggestion then only would apply to those "other questions" (like "what is «»"). Right?


 
Your post was very helpful.  One issue remains, however............

Sending an PM on an off topic subject is easier said than done.  Will we have specific assistants designated for such PM's?  Can there be a designated mailbox?


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## El escoces

cdowis said:


> Your post was very helpful. One issue remains, however............
> 
> Sending an PM on an off topic subject is easier said than done. Will we have specific assistants designated for such PM's? Can there be a designated mailbox?


 
Surely we've covered this already?  Sending a PM couldn't be simpler, and in the first instance should be directed to the moderator for the relevant forum, who will be happy to answer you.


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## sokol

cdowis said:


> Your post was very helpful.  One issue remains, however............
> 
> Sending an PM on an off topic subject is easier said than done. Will we have specific assistants designated for such PM's? Can there be a designated mailbox?


You can always ask moderators by PM about such things, no need to worry.

For example, if you are not sure if something belongs to the language forums (like a discussion about how to use diacritics) you may ask one of us, no problem there.
You can also ask ahead of posting wether something would be considered off-topic (or appropriate to the forum concerned), if you are not sure about it.

The language questions themselves then of course still should be asked in the forums. 

Don't be afraid of us moderators - we aren't monsters out of Frankenstein's labs.


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## Xiroi

cdowis said:


> I am trying to learn how Spanish works with that specific example, not the detailed analysis that advanced members are interested in.


I see your point. Well, maybe you were kind of expecting too much, I mean, you can always ask for an explanation on something but "how the phrase works so that I can understand general rules of Spanish" without any further material and doing that by yourself is just not a realistic approach to learning a language. I mean, if you ask a question far beyond your level of Spanish maybe you won't get a satisfactory reply because you'll be lacking the basics. For instance, what's the point of getting into the nuances of indicative/subjuntive if you don't even know what conjugation is? Just an example, I don't mean this is your case 

Here you'll get help but it's not that you can learn only by coming here to ask about some phrases instead of having a structured "curriculum". Somehow you must have a basic plan to go through in the right order. You learn this first, then you go on to learn that... and you simply can’t do that yourself, you have to be guided in the learning process. How can you know if your question is elementary or advanced and what you need to learn before getting to that stage if it's only a sentence you don't understand? Unless you’re in your early teens or younger, you won’t learn a language simply by listening to it and figuring out the “rules”. After a certain age it’s no use trying to learn as we all did as babies.

Asking random questions about things you don't understand may help you get some of the "general rules of Spanish" but not to learn the language in an appropriate and thorough way and it can be misleading and frustrating. There’s just no point in asking something very advanced if you still don't have the basics. In short: you won't get some kind of online course here BUT if you start an online course, we can help you here with whatever you don't understand or need help with. 

And as others have said, feel free to clearly state "please answer in English", it's perfectly acceptable, you're learning Spanish so you can't be asked to refrain from posting until you're fluent. And feel free to say "ermmm... sorry I still don't get it". Many times you're not getting an answer by professional teachers so do expect some peculiar replies now and then. Well meaning, though. 

Finally: I've checked the thread and ok maybe you didn’t get the exact reply you wanted quickly, and the discussion went on because your original sentence didn’t sound too well for some of us (maybe local varieties) but the fact that your first thread wasn’t very successful doesn’t mean WR needs to be readjusted, it’s an excellent tool but it is exactly what it is, not something else.

Good luck!


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## cdowis

Xiroi said:


> I see your point. Well, maybe you were kind of expecting too much, I mean, you can always ask for an explanation on something but "how the phrase works so that I can understand general rules of Spanish" without any further material and doing that by yourself is just not a realistic approach to learning a language. I mean, if you ask a question far beyond your level of Spanish maybe you won't get a satisfactory reply because you'll be lacking the basics. For instance, what's the point of getting into the nuances of indicative/subjuntive if you don't even know what conjugation is? Just an example, I don't mean this is your case



I am familiar with Latin, ancient Greek, and fluent in German.

I know what a conjugation is.  I just don't understand certain constructs in Spanish.  I have a plan to learn Spanish, but I come across something that does not make sense, based on my general knowledge of the grammar of any language.


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## Xiroi

I never meant to question your language skills, sorry if you thought that. Anyway, this is not the place to discussin learning techiques. I'll just say that being a native Spanish speaker never helped me too much with Latin so I'm not sure it will work the other way around either. So, again. good luck.


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## alexacohen

cdowis said:


> I am familiar with Latin, ancient Greek, and fluent in German.
> 
> I know what a conjugation is.  I just don't understand certain constructs in Spanish.  I have a plan to learn Spanish, but I come across something that does not make sense, based on my general knowledge of the grammar of any language.



Of _any_ language, Cdowis? Aren´t you taking things a bit too far?

I can´t see at all why a Newbies Only Subforum is necessary; after all, most of the answers a newbie needs to know are already posted at the top of the forums. The rest can be asked here...  

I can´t see what good would it be if newbies were to receive an email or a PM explaining the rules as soon as they joined; People are asked to read the rules before registering, aren´t they?

So what´s the point?


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## L'irlandais

alexacohen said:


> ...I can´t see at all why a Newbies Only Subforum is necessary; ...So what´s the point?


Hello,
A "sandbox" forum, is a widely accepted idea.  It helps a small number of new members to get over the hurdle of making their initial post.  I have moderated for a couple of years on another forum (AUGI.com) & found that perhaps only 10% of the membership are actively involved.  Most folks prefer to browse the forums reading the discussions.  The "sandbox" helps in my opinion to increase the percentage of members active, yes that would be difficult to prove. _~shrug~ I can't see what harm you guys see in creating a "sandbox". _   At worst it would just be ignored right?  At best it may help somebody. 

The point, since you asked, is that we don't have one on here, and despite suggesting that it might be a good idea, it looks like we won't be having one in the foreseeable future.


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## Xiroi

L'irlandais said:


> The "sandbox" helps in my opinion to increase the percentage of members active, yes that would be difficult to prove. _~shrug~ I can't see what harm you guys see in creating a "sandbox". _ At worst it would just be ignored right? At best it may help somebody.


How would it then be implemented? A sandbox for each language forum? A common sandbox for all languages would certainly be a mess, with all languages mixed togethers. Will helpful foreros be willing to scroll through pages and pages of threads in different languages before finding one they can post in?

I'm trying really hard but I just fail to see what kind of help they'd get there they don't already get now if they use the dictionary/search function/previous threads and then (only then) post a new question in the current forums.


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## alexacohen

L'irlandais said:


> The "sandbox" helps in my opinion to increase the percentage of members active, yes that would be difficult to prove. _~shrug~ I can't see what harm you guys see in creating a "sandbox". _
> 
> The point, since you asked, is that we don't have one on here, and despite suggesting that it might be a good idea, it looks like we won't be having one in the foreseeable future.


 
I see no harm at all. But I don´t see any advantage either. 

But it´s quite difficult to foresee the future, don´t you think?


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## TrentinaNE

alexacohen said:


> I can´t see what good would it be if newbies were to receive an email or a PM explaining the rules as soon as they joined; People are asked to read the rules before registering, aren´t they?


Amen. Not to mention that the text-box that newbies see when posting messages has several prominent warnings and links. I'm waiting for someone to invent a terminal that will reach out and smack the clueless in the face.  Until then, no amount of pre-emptive measures of the types routinely suggested in this sub-forum will create a fool-proof environment.



L'irlandais said:


> Most folks prefer to browse the forums reading the discussions. The "sandbox" helps in my opinion to increase the percentage of members active, ...


I don't see why increasing the percentage of active members should be an objective. These forums are active enough (some of the overly active, IMHO) as it is.  I don't think it's the responsibility of WR to have to coax the pathologically shy (which is what someone would have to be to "fear" posting here -- again IMHO).

Elisabetta


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## Martina.M

I agree with most of you - actually, all of you. I don't think that segregation is a good idea, because the old sharks know the best answers, and teach you better.
And I did freak out a bit at the beggining about the rule worshipping I felt. I couldn't remember ALL the rules on the list, so at the beggining I was positive that I was breaking one rule by post, and afraid that a wicked moderator would erase my post before I got the answer. Until one day it happened, then I learnt the meaning of the word *proofreading*! After some bitter comments in this awsome thread, I learnt the basic rule: be Flanders. Remember Flanders, from The Simpsons? Irritatingly nice? As the hot blooded Spanish I am, I'd say to a bad translation: What the #@% are you talking about? And laugh. All that without meaning no harm, it's just my way! But here one must be very careful, because being corrected hurts almost as much as being deleted, so I always try to add some sugar, so nobody misunterstands me. Because one of the best things of this forums is the community, and how available people are to save your life by translating almost anything. I hope this is not too long. Please don't delete me!


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## mkellogg

Sorry for being late to the conversation.

Cdowis, I see what you mean.  I've seen many forums that have a beginners section and do a great job of making people feel comfortable making their first post. (Linuxquestions.org comes to mind, not that I have ever posted there  )  Sure people can and do post beginners questions in the main forums, but many more are intimidated.

One of the largest problems that I see is that we would need one for each language - basically doubling the number of forums here - something that is not practical.

The best thing we can probably dofor now is to follow El escoces' suggestion to somehow encourage people to post.

Mike


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## Passau

I joined a few weeks ago and haven’t felt the need for a _newbie zone_ per se; however, I do feel it would be better if the English only section were expanded. There ought to be two forums: one for beginner-intermediate ESL learners, another for advanced ESL learners and native English speakers. While I’m glad WRF is a beacon to those who are just beginning study, as a native speaker I would rather not browse through so many threads that aren’t suited to my level of skill. My preference would be to have those discussions take place in separate areas. 

  Passau


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## Trisia

While I don't really agree with splitting the EO in two, your post gave me an idea (by the way I'm posting as a regular member here, of course). Maybe we could try a tagging system for the EO that would help us quickly discover the threads we're interested in.

If we had tags such as [beginner], [intermediate] and [advanced], and we used them in combination with grammar tags: [possessive pronouns], [modal verbs], [progressive tenses], we could at least quickly find the things we're interested in.

_Now the only problem is that VB software doesn't yet support multiple tags searches_  (that or my info's really old ). And I wouldn't like tags like [beginner-grammar]. That would mean an incredible amount of threads tagged the same, and sort of defeat the purpose of tagging.

Anyway, this could help create a virtual beginners' forum, without really moving threads here and there. Maybe, in the future...?


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## Xiroi

I see a problem in your suggestion: where's the limit between beginner and intermediate? Or Intermediate and advanced. Who decides where the limit is? Besides what someone may think is "advanced" may be only plain "intermediate".

Besides, a question even if basic may include replies that expand on the issue beyond its original "beginner level". I think that what this forum really needs is that its members search the forum for previous threads before posting a new one. I dare say 99% of the questions related to what you can find in any beginners course have already been ask. That being said I must admit I've posted questions that had already been addressed in previous threads but it was only because I didn't formulate my search properly (I did search though).


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## Paulfromitaly

Passau said:


> I joined a few weeks ago and haven’t felt the need for a _newbie zone_ per se; however, I do feel it would be better if the English only section were expanded. There ought to be two forums: one for beginner-intermediate ESL learners, another for advanced ESL learners and native English speakers. While I’m glad WRF is a beacon to those who are just beginning study, as a native speaker I would rather not browse through so many threads that aren’t suited to my level of skill. My preference would be to have those discussions take place in separate areas.
> 
> Passau


I have a question for you: Who would be entitled to decide whether a forero (and consequently his queries) is a beginner-intermediate learner or an advanced learner?
You can't but agree with me that learners seek native speakers' help, not their peers' (I daresay that's quite understandable).
You are free not to click on, read or reply to any thread that does not float your boat


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## Passau

> I have a question for you: Who would be entitled to decide whether a forero (and consequently his queries) is a beginner-intermediate learner or an advanced learner?
> You can't but agree with me that learners seek native speakers' help, not their peers' (I daresay that's quite understandable).


 
I hadn’t envisioned a system for _deciding_, only a few guidelines. No doubt there would be some fuzziness about where some topics belong, but I believe most people have a sense of where they are in their learning and would be able to figure out the appropriate section on their own. In no way was I trying to suggest that more knowledgeable members shouldn’t reply freely and enthusiastically in a beginners section or that there should be qualifications to ‘get in’ a more advanced section. I’m sorry if my first post came across that way.




> You are free not to click on, read or reply to any thread that does not float your boat


 
Yes, but it is often difficult to tell which threads are beginner oriented and which are advanced based solely on their titles. That’s all I was getting at. 

Passau


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## Xiroi

Passau said:


> I believe most people have a sense of where they are in their learning and would be able to figure out the appropriate section on their own.


Maybe in a perfect world, but not in this one. You'd be surprised to see what lots of people call "intermediate".


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## Paulfromitaly

Passau said:


> most people have a sense of where they are in their learning and would be able to figure out the appropriate section on their own.



I Wish 
Please take a look at these old threads: some people seem to have problems stating or admitting or even realising what their native language is.
Can you imagine these same people having to put themselves into a more indefinite and objective category (beginner, intermediate, advanced) than "native speaker of" ?? 
I can't..

Native language, Native of, something wrong in the template? 
Public profiles
Personal info


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## Passau

Well, if members feel free to misrepresent themselves to such a degree with the one-forum arrangement, perhaps adding another would make it easier for you to deal with them:  those who are most liable to misrepresent their native language would presumably be drawn to an advanced section, where they could be picked out more easily. That is assuming the majority of people aren’t suffering from an identity crisis and don’t have a horribly inaccurate idea of their proficiency, which is still my belief even after reading those threads.  

Anyway, if you are convinced it wouldn’t work, scratch the idea. I'm not really unhappy the way it is now.

Passau


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## Xiroi

Passau said:


> Well, if members feel free to misrepresent themselves to such a degree with the one-forum arrangement,* perhaps adding another would make it easier for you to deal with them*: those who are most liable to misrepresent their native language would presumably be drawn to an advanced section, where they could be picked out more easily.


Easier for who? I still can't see how doing that could improve the forums but I see quite a few inconveniences, for starters:

1: Doing that would simply imply more work to the mods. And mods are not language teachers to evaluate people's knowledge and forum members are not supposed to make a level test. And I don't feel like being evaluated by the mods to be put in the right class, sorry, forum. This is not a language school. 

2: So what if people learn a lot and after a year they pose more advanced questions? Time to take a new level test? A test we don't have here btw. Should forum members apply for an upgrading? Should mods have to check if that person is ready to go to the advanced forum? How would they do that? Again, they're not teachers to evaluate our language skills. And all that would be extremely time consuming.

The way I see it is like what is being suggested is that just because some people don't want to waste their precious time reading threads they may not be interested in, the forum should be rearranged, new subforums be added according to the poster's level and mods would have to act as teachers evaluating the member's level (and of course doing all their current work) and work for hours to place everyone in the right place.

I choose to reply in those threads I find interesting, this is I open the thread, read the question quickly (some 45 seconds?) and then decide. But I'd never expect mods to increase their work load just to save me the terrible inconvenience of reading questions I'm not interested in.


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## L'irlandais

Hullo,
For me mkellogg's post above, just about rounded off the original discussion.  As administrator he said the following :





mkellogg said:


> ...One of the largest problems that I see is that we would need one for each language - basically doubling the number of forums here - something that is not practical.
> 
> The best thing we can probably dofor now is to follow El escoces' suggestion to somehow encourage people to post.
> 
> Mike


Note : The original post defines the topic (ie "New forum"), not your own subsequent ramblings, and it was made by a Newbie.  This thread is going way off topic! (Not cool)
The forum does allow the use of Tags to home in on specific threads.

Having said that beginners need the input from more proficient members, so you may well be missing some of the point of this community's raison d'être.


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## PaulQ

Two points:
1. I searched for "sandbox" as, on other forums, this usually means an area where experimental postings can be made, e.g. use of Vbulletin code to see if they work as intended and similarly, practice with the tools available. Such an area typically does not have a lot of usage, but when it is required, it is indispensable. 

2. Parla has noted that there is no strike-through button on the toolbar. This would be a welcome addition.


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## Nunty

In advance view there is not a strikethrough button. It's the one on the right of the bottom row.


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