# [OT?]Is Italian a dead language?



## archimede

I read yesterday on a newspaper an interesting article.

The author observed that while in the USA studying Italian seems nowadays _a la mode_ (there's a school in NY where they teach Italian to children - even before they learn speaking English!) here in EU Italian is not part of the "official" (can't find a better word) languages (English, German and French, if memory serves).

I'd like to hear your qualified opinion.

Alessandro


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## Akialuz

Where is that school???

I live in a place in NY where many MANY Italian descendants live .  My husband is Italian-American and I may say I know more Italian that he does.  When I go to the pizzeria owned by Italians (from Italy) I get so upset that the only language I hear them speak is English (with that beautiful Italian Accent!)
I thinkl that if Italian is dying here is bacause Italians are forgetting their roots.  I speak Spanish wherever I go and often hear Mexicans speak Spanish, even Russians anf Jews.  But a few Italians!  
~Akialuz


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## archimede

Akialuz said:
			
		

> Where is that school???


If you are really interested, I'll check the exact name for you (I don't think the full address was reported, but shouldn't be a problem I guess).

Alessandro


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## Silvia

Yes, Alessandro, this thread is off-topic, since cultural matters should be discussed in the Cultural Issues Forum.


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## lsp

Many years ago I read an article and I can no longer find it or remember the source. It posited that Italian was, or would soon be, added to the list of endangered languages. Languages are in states of either evolution or devolution depending on the rate at which new words introduced into it are created vs.  imported. Italian had, according to this article, relied more heavily on importing words in the last several decades than on creating and exporting its own new words.

I wonder if anyone has any information (or opinions - other than how sad it would be, of course) about this?


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## DDT

I'm moving this thread to the "Cultural Issues" forum 

DDT


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## Leopold

lsp said:
			
		

> Many years ago I read an article and I can no longer find it or remember the source. It posited that Italian was, or would soon be, added to the list of endangered languages. Languages are in states of either evolution or devolution depending on the rate at which new words introduced into it are created vs. imported. Italian had, according to this article, relied more heavily on importing words in the last several decades than on creating and exporting its own new words.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has any information (or opinions - other than how sad it would be, of course) about this?



Isn't it "involution"? "Devolution" sound like "transfer of powers" to me... ¿?¿?

Leo


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## lsp

I found this definition of devolution: the process of declining from a higher to a lower level of effective power or vitality or essential quality.


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## Leopold

lsp said:
			
		

> I found this definition of devolution: the process of declining from a higher to a lower level of effective power or vitality or essential quality.



 You're right, lsp.
 Main Entry:	*de·vo·lu·tion*


 Pronunciation:	"de-v&-'lü-sh&n _also _"dE-v&-
 Function:	_noun_
 Etymology:	Medieval Latin _devolution-, devolutio, _from Latin _devolvere_
*1* *:* transference (as of rights, powers, property, or responsibility) to another; _especially_ *:* the surrender of powers to local authorities by a central government
*2* *:* retrograde evolution *: DEGENERATION*
- *de·vo·lu·tion·ary*


  /-sh&-"ner-E/ _adjective_
- *de·vo·lu·tion·ist*


  /-sh(&-)nist/ _noun

"Involution" means another thing.

Why haven't you corrected "trasfer" > "transference"??
_________

About the topic. First: What does "OT" mean in the title???

Second: I really don't think Italian in an endangered language in the EU! It's true that EURODICAUTOM, for example, provides translations for all the terms into German, English and French, always. While the rest of the languages are uneven. But notice that most of the documents MUST be translated to every official language in the UE (this is, the official languages in each whole-country: not basque, not sardinian, etc.). I think that ensures a future for Italian.

Leo
_


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## onetwothreegood

Japanese, French, Spanish and Italian (appart from maori) are generally the main languages people learn everywhere i go to. Australia and New Zealand. (if i didnt know better, half of the population in australia is italian ).


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## RODGER

If Italian is a dead language, then Welsh, Catalan, Breton etc.. are in the Intensive Care Unit ! Mind you, try saying "Inverse synthetic aperture radar" in Breton !

Rodger


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## archimede

lsp said:
			
		

> Italian had, according to this article, relied more heavily on importing words in the last several decades than on creating and exporting its own new words.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has any information (or opinions - other than how sad it would be, of course) about this?


An appendix of my Italian dictionary (a couple of years old) states the same.

In general, I tend to agree with this point of view (FWIW, as I'm by no means an expert).

Unfortunately English seems to be the only source of new life in our everyday language, perhaps with the exception of some words from local dialects (becoming popular through national TV programs).

Why is it happening, I don't know: someone more knowledgeable than me might want to comment.

Anyway, it's nice to see that there's still some interest in our language (at least?!) outside our boundaries 

Alessandro

[Edit]





			
				Leopold said:
			
		

> What does "OT" mean in the title???


Off Topic.


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## Outsider

lsp said:
			
		

> Many years ago I read an article and I can no longer find it or remember the source. It posited that Italian was, or would soon be, added to the list of endangered languages.


As long as Italy and Switzerland are around, I don't think there's any danger that Italian will perish.   



			
				lsp said:
			
		

> Languages are in states of either evolution or devolution depending on the rate at which new words introduced into it are created vs.  imported. Italian had, according to this article, relied more heavily on importing words in the last several decades than on creating and exporting its own new words.


I strongly disagree.
All languages are in a permanent state of evolution. Borrowing and lending words is a constant in the existence of any language. Even if Italian is currently borrowing more than it lends, that is of little concern -- the same has been true of most Western European languages for several centuries. They kept borrowing words, first from French, then from English, and always from Latin and Greek, but they're still alive and kicking.


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## lsp

archimede said:
			
		

> An appendix of my Italian dictionary (a couple of years old) states the same.


Which dictionary is it, A?


			
				archimede said:
			
		

> Anyway, it's nice to see that there's still some interest in our language (at least?!) outside our boundaries


More than a little interest, and not only the language - in all things Italian... fashion, art, food, lucky for us!


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## Marc1

Must agree with Outsider and add that I don't understand the originator of the thread. Why should Italian be dead? Because it is not the "official language in the european union? Neither is Finnish...What role does that play? 
There are more italians living outside italy than in it but italian cannot compare with english nor spanish becaue there are only 1 +1/26 countries that have it as their language.
I agree that italians that live outside italy butcher their own language with gusto, but so do Spanish and many others that live outside their countries.

That does not make the language dead.


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## archimede

lsp said:
			
		

> Which dictionary is it, A?


Devoto-Oli.





			
				Marc1 said:
			
		

> I don't understand the originator of the thread. Why should Italian be dead? Because it is not the "official language in the european union? Neither is Finnish...What role does that play?


Well, first off I'm not the only one worried about that: other persons, far more knowledgeable and influental(?), share the same opinion (or similar). That doesn't confirm the theory, but I think it gives some credibility to the argument.

I don't know exactly what are the implications of being "reference language" here in EU: for sure German or French wouldn't gladly accept to see their language leave this _exclusive club_.

The fact is, we already had to bite the Euro bullet: is the same going to happen with the language?





			
				Marc1 said:
			
		

> There are more italians living outside italy than in it but italian cannot compare with english nor spanish becaue there are only 1 +1/26 countries that have it as their language.


Are you saying that the importance or dignity of a language is directly proportional to the number of people speaking it? Following this reasoning, perhaps we should all start studying Chinese. 


			
				Marc1 said:
			
		

> I agree that italians that live outside italy butcher their own language with gusto, but so do Spanish and many others that live outside their countries.
> 
> That does not make the language dead.


That's not a problem: I'm worried when _butchering_ (be it colonization or degradation) comes from inside Italy.

Alessandro


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## Marc1

Well...you make some good attempts but fail to exploit them correctly.

I will only answer to one. When I say Italian cannot be compared to English because it is only spoken officially in Italy and one Swiss canton, I am referring to your lament that Italian is not in the "reference " language in the EU. Since you seem to give to this fact a lot of weight I assumed you would also be sensible to the fact that English is spoken by 2 billions and is official language in 80 countries. See the stats below.

Yet when I see and understand the concern of some die hard in Italy about change in the language, it is inevitable that any language receives words from another and it is not surprising that it is English given the numbers you can read below. I would be more concerned with preserving correct and formal Italian as the way to speak and write rather than some half cooked colloquial dialect or other verbal utterance used as a form or communication. Last time I interviewed an Italian speaker she told me that she had problem with "U Rufo", (the roof)  

Countries that remain independent have no chance to lose their language. Look at the Philippines. Hundred of years of Spanish colonization repressed  Tagalog and other dialects making Spanish the official language yet when the Spanish dominance subsided, English took over and there are no more Spanish words in their language, most words are imported from America to the point that you can almost guess your way through the TV Filipino News.
Yet Tagalog is Tagalog and will remain Tagalog. How much more Italian!
Relax and be a beacon of good formal Italian, Dante's language.

GoUK.com's Market - English Statistics
English has a special/official status in more than 75 countries, totalling in excess of two billion people
More than 25 percent of the world's population speaks English - with varying degrees of competence
Nearly 50 percent of EU citizens can speak English
English is spoken as a: 
first language by around 375 million people
second language by around another 375 million people
foreign language by around 750 million people
More than 66 percent of the world's scientists read in English
More than 75 percent of the world's correspondence is written in English
More than 80 percent of all the world's electronic information is stored in English 
More than 80 percent of Internet users communicate in English
At any one moment there are 120,000 people studying English at British Council centres alone
This year over one billion people will learn English
More than 600,000 overseas students come to the UK each year to learn English
In total, those 600,000 students spend in excess of (GBP) £1 billion a year in the UK
The UK's English language products are worth over (GBP) £900 million a year to the UK
English is the main language of  
academic conferences and research
advertising and marketing
airports and air-traffic control
books
diplomacy
international business
international competitions
Internet and email
newspapers
pop music 
science
sport
technology


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## Benjy

"Nearly 50 percent of EU citizens can speak English"

then where in giddy blue blazes are they hiding? from my own minor experiences of traveling about in europe 1 in 2 people do not speak english. no way. not unless i am the unluckiest man in the world.


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## DDT

Since this thread was started as an OT  let me add a slightly OT opinion...what I am really concerned about is not the fact Italian might be dying, I cannot perceive such a danger at the moment...if there's something risking to die in Italy that's culture, for it's less and less supported...  

DDT


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## lsp

DDT said:
			
		

> Since this thread was started as an OT  let me add a slightly OT opinion...what I am really concerned about is not the fact Italian might be dying, I cannot perceive such a danger at the moment...if there's something risking to die in Italy that's culture, for it's less and less supported...
> 
> DDT


Anything specific, DDT?


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## cuchuflete

Marc1 has presented some interesting math concepts:



> the fact that English is spoken by 2 billions





> English is spoken as a:
> first language by around 375 million people
> second language by around another 375 million people
> foreign language by around 750 million people



What happened to the missing half billion Enlish speakers?  Are they studying Italian?

un abbraccio,
Cuciu


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## lsp

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Marc1 has presented some interesting math concepts:


There's no date on these stats. This also came to mind after Benjy's post. How recent are they?


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## cuchuflete

lsp said:
			
		

> There's no date on these stats. This also came to mind after Benjy's post. How recent are they?



I hope you are addressing your question to our intermediary source, and not to me.  I have an inherent distrust of statistics, as I spent many years inventing them.

*Si non e vero, e ben trovato*

cuciu


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## Marc1

lsp said:
			
		

> There's no date on these stats. This also came to mind after Benjy's post. How recent are they?


http://www.gouk.com/elt/index.html

I like the logic in Cuchulfete's post. Since he use to invent stats he mistrusts stats. It's like that old lady that did not want to go to the hospital because everybody is sick in the hospital 

What's the matter Cuchuflete? Did you slip on peanut butter or something?


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## archimede

Marc1 said:
			
		

> Well...you make some good attempts but fail to exploit them correctly.


Too generous of you.  I should have posted in Italian and perhaps (and it's a HUGE perhaps) I would have had (almost sure I'm lost with those verbs here) more success...

Apologies for snipping your interesting post: it's not that I'm avoiding it. On the contrary, I probably agree with most of it. The only fundamental flaw I see is, IMHO, the following:





			
				Marc1 said:
			
		

> ... I am referring to your lament that Italian is not in *the* "reference " language in the EU.


Actually my lament is that _Italian is not_ in (not sure what the in means here, sorry) _*one of the* "reference " language*s* in the EU_.

Perhaps this makes no difference to you: to me it seems fundamental.

And no, I'm not so blind not to see that English is today's Esperanto (and I'm glad I understand a little bit of it) nor am I so stupid to try and fight this reality.





			
				DDT said:
			
		

> ... what I am really concerned about is not the fact Italian might be dying, I cannot perceive such a danger at the moment...if there's something risking to die in Italy that's culture


I don't consider the two things unrelated: without an active cultural life a language is bound to die... sooner or later.

Alessandro


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## pinkpanter

Akialuz said:
			
		

> owned by Italians (from Italy)



cae de cajón


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## pinkpanter

Hi all, 

the thing about languages progressing, decaying, languages being born or dying are because in the nineteenth century scholars talked about languages as organic entities. When talking about languages that die out we are not talking about languages who change over the centuries, who take loans from other languages; we speak of the *total disappearance * of the language. I find it very very very unlikely that Italian dies. A language dies not because people forget how to speak but because another language gets the the status of the dominant language in a territory with a previous language. The younger generation learn the "old" language but is more attracted to use the "new" one outside home. Bilinguism and Trilinguism exist. That situation does not always imply the death of a language. Is that situation happening in Italy? No, so there is not need to worry. Besides this, there is a quite sense of proud attached to any given language (with some differences) but people often feel proud of their native tongue and that makes a language stronger. 

About the borrowing thing, I cannot think of a language that borrowed more during all its history than English. 75% of its vocabulary is not of Germanic origin and nobody denies its value or suggests that English is less for that.

To finish, I want to mention that English is the lingua franca of the word because of political, economic and social reasons and because of nothing to do with the quality or superiority of one language against another.


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## cuchuflete

Marc1 said:
			
		

> http://www.gouk.com/elt/index.html
> 
> I like the logic in Cuchulfete's post. Since he use to invent stats he mistrusts stats. It's like that old lady that did not want to go to the hospital because everybody is sick in the hospital
> 
> What's the matter Cuchuflete? Did you slip on peanut butter or something?



I'm glad you are so tickled at your own wit.  Your numbers don't add up.

I do mistrust stats from people who never seem to give a source, or check their own work.  I hope you are more careful with your translations than you appear to be with your citations.

C-


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## cuchuflete

Marc1 said:
			
		

> http://www.gouk.com/elt/index.html
> 
> I like the logic in Cuchulfete's post. Since he use to invent stats he mistrusts stats. It's like that old lady that did not want to go to the hospital because everybody is sick in the hospital
> 
> What's the matter Cuchuflete? Did you slip on peanut butter or something?



The link in your post does not address the question.


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## pinkpanter

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I hope you are more careful with your translations than you appear to be with your citations.
> 
> C-



Your answer chimes and all Cuchu. You're too much! 

So nice reading you again... I've been so busy lately...


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## Benjy

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> The link in your post does not address the question.



but at least you know now that GoUK is always first.. the others follow! surely such priceless information is worth more than boring figures on the number of english speakers in the world


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## lsp

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I hope you are addressing your question to our intermediary source, and not to me.


My question was completely directed at Marc1, sorry for not being clear. The stats seemed questionable, I was (still am) unable to locate them for myself to get a better picture of their reliability.


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## Marc1

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> The link in your post does not address the question.



I'm sorry Mr Cuchuflete but the point of the matter is not if the percentages add up or not, or if the English speakers are 1.5 or 2 billions. The point is that 
English speakers are so many as to influence other languages by default and that a few English words in Italian do not make the language in danger of "dying".

You are being contentious only because you are ticked off for some other reason. I gave you the link and the link has dates. What else do you want?

I think you are still resenting your own gaffe about the peanuts being nodules.
Remember you wrote that not me, and it is still without response.
So much for being careful.....ah , and your "Italian" quote sounds a bit spanalian.


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## Benjy

erhm.. i can't see any dates or stats on the page. maybe it's me being stupid =[ i'm just interested to knoww your source because i couldn't get anywhere with my own quest to find the total number of english speaks in the world a while ago


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## cuchuflete

Marc1 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry Mr Cuchuflete but the point of the matter is not if the percentages add up or not, or if the English speakers are 1.5 or 2 billions. The point is that
> English speakers are so many as to influence other languages by default and that a few English words in Italian do not make the language in danger of "dying".
> 
> You are being contentious only because you are ticked off for some other reason. I gave you the link and the link has dates. What else do you want?
> 
> I think you are still resenting your own gaffe about the peanuts being nodules.
> Remember you wrote that not me, and it is still without response.
> So much for being careful.....ah , and your "Italian" quote sounds a bit spanalian.



Thank you Mr. Marc1,

I fully agree with your point. I was concerned that you might lose credibility as a result of what was not a minor inconsistency in your numbers, especially given the lack of a source for any of them...

If I erred in calling peanuts nodules, I'll find the post and apologize. I believe someone referred to peanuts as having hard shells. I've never come across such a peanut, but I have much to learn.

The ""Italian"" quote is a very old Italian expression. I trust you have the skills to verify that, but just in case you are not sufficiently motivated...



> ben trovato - well thought up:  describing a notion or anecdote
> that is untrue but appropriate or memorable (from the Italian
> "Si non e vero e ben trovato" tr. "Not true but well put") (W)


 source: http://stommel.tamu.edu/~baum/skb_dict.html



> Nectar , vous êtes un bon romancier et je vous félicite de cette belle aventure. En italien on dit:
> 
> "SI NON E VERO E BEN TROVATO" (Si ce n'est pas vrai, c'est bien trouvé)
> 
> Mais continuez à écrire, ça ouvre les horizons de l'imagination et élargit l'intelligence..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Par


 source:http://www.harissa.com/discus/messages/97/11317.html?1094401948

As a student of languages, I would not expect you to so easily confuse Italian and Spanish...perhaps it was something in your peanut butter...

Buen provecho,
On behalf of the missing half million English speakers.....

Cuchu


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## fatboy06

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Buen provecho,
> On behalf of the missing half million English speakers.....
> 
> Cuchu



Surely half a billion?


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## cuchuflete

fatboy06 said:
			
		

> Surely half a billion?


Thank you for the correction.
Cuchuflete


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## Silvia

Cuciu, "se non è vero è ben trovato!" by Giordano Bruno.

Marc1, I visited the link you posted and I can't read anything about what you mentioned.

Back to the topic.
Alessandro, I got your point. 
Abbiamo posto le basi delle organizzazioni antesignane dell'Unione Europea assieme a Francia e Germania, in veste di fautori, eppure siamo sempre un gradino sotto. Nelle nostre scuole, le lingue straniere ufficiali sono inglese, francese e, talvolta, tedesco. All'estero, non mi risulta venga insegnato l'italiano, tranne che in corsi privati, ma pagando puoi studiare qualsiasi lingua. A questo punto però vorrei dire che a me non piace il modo di conformare tutto, preferirei che il sistema scolastico potesse essere più elastico e fornire un po' più di scelta agli studenti. Se avessi avuto la possibilità di studiare russo alle superiori, l'avrei fatto, ma questo per me era poco accessibile, per i problemi che ho già accennato. Mi risulta che, in tutta Italia, esistesse solo una scuola pubblica con il russo come lingua straniera.
D'altro canto, ipotizzo un futuro con l'arabo come lingua straniera, vista la massiccia immigrazione dai paesi islamici e arabi.
Il nostro è un paese molto malleabile e questo, spesso, va a nostro svantaggio. Tutta questione di capire il prossimo, di politically correct, di questo e di quello, noi ci preoccupiamo di tutto, tranne che di salvaguardare la nostra identità, per esempio l'arte, la cultura ecc.
Fortunatamente qualcuno ogni tanto si fa sentire e punta i piedi, anche contro l'Unione Europea, che vorrebbe appiattire e uniformare tutto, per es. abolendo la pizza al forno a legna o taluni formaggi tipici italiani.

Non credo che la lingua italiana scomparirà a breve termine, a lungo lungo termine dipende... di certo il tasso di nascita 0 non aiuta


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## Marc1

Cuchuflete, I understand that the task of a moderator is to use sarcasm long meandering post and direct attacks to antagonize others in order to stimulate debate, (and if everything fails, to lock the thread), but don't you think you are overdoing this a bit? 

As for the quote in Italian you used... you are giving two links, one is French the other one English...not that I could find the reference mind you, but what makes you think they would be accurate in Italian? Even Google will give you the right spelling

Anyway...over and out. Half a pound of roasted peanut in their shell are awaiting me...Always a pleasure to have a little skirmish with you.
No hard feelings

Huluru
MGG


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## DDT

Marc1 said:
			
		

> Cuchuflete, I understand that the task of a moderator is to use sarcasm long meandering post and direct attacks to antagonize others in order to stimulate debate, (and if everything fails, to lock the thread), but don't you think you are overdoing this a bit?



Would you please mind addressing such remarks via PM? As Mr Kellogg recently reminded the forums are not the place to post such personal attacks.

DDT


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## cuchuflete

Marc1--

What you think you understand and what is true have some considerable space between them.

When I act in the role of a moderator, I identify myself as such. The rest of the time my participation is that of a forum member. It is as a forum member that I address you now. 

If you wish to see fine examples of sarcasm, read your own posts.

I have no interest in antagonizing you. I have pointed out a flaw in one of your posts. If that antagonizes you, perhaps you should ponder why.

When a fellow forum member corrects me, I take note and give thanks for the correction. I believe I had the opportunity to do that earlier in this thread. 

When I encounter disagreement with my positions, and believe that I am on firm ground, I engage in strenuous arguments. If you prefer that people either agree with you or keep silent, you are in the wrong forum. In the Culture forum it is perfectly fine to air disparate opinions.

If you wish to debate facts or ideas, please do so. You may be asked, as you were earlier, by another member, to show a source. If you don't want to do so, that is your choice.

I finally realized what you meant by the reference to the proverb sounding Spanish...I mis-spelled 'se' as 'si'. I stand corrected and thank you for pointing that out.

The proverb, despite my lousy spelling, is Italian.

" Una struttura con cui giocare: a proposito del proverbio italiano «se non è vero è ben trovato»    source: http://www.gangemieditore.it/cat057_p6.htm

You may find hundreds more citations in Italian, as well as English, Spanish and French...all of which identify it as Italian.

I agree with you...this is a little skirmish, and nothing more. Please understand that it is a skirmish among two forum members, and that neither has acted as a moderator. If you don't care for or agree with something I have written, let's debate the facts.

My turn to eat peanut butter.

cheers,
Cuchu





			
				Marc1 said:
			
		

> Cuchuflete, I understand that the task of a moderator is to use sarcasm long meandering post and direct attacks to antagonize others in order to stimulate debate, (and if everything fails, to lock the thread), but don't you think you are overdoing this a bit?
> 
> As for the quote in Italian you used... you are giving two links, one is French the other one English...not that I could find the reference mind you, but what makes you think they would be accurate in Italian? Even Google will give you the right spelling
> 
> Anyway...over and out. Half a pound of roasted peanut in their shell are awaiting me...Always a pleasure to have a little skirmish with you.
> No hard feelings
> 
> Huluru
> MGG


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## Marc1

What you think you understand and what is true have some considerable space between them


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## cuchuflete

Marc1 said:
			
		

> What you think you understand and what is true have some considerable space between them



Isn't agreement wonderful?


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## archimede

@Silvia:

grazie per la comprensione ed il supporto! Spero che qualche anima buona (e capace ) vorrà tradurre in inglese il tuo post a beneficio di tutti.

To all:

I'd like to make clear one more time that I don't (I repeat: I DON'T) think that borrowing words from other langages is ill _per sè_. I do think it can be a problem if borrowing is the sole and only way for a language to "stay alive".

Alessandro


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## DDT

lsp said:
			
		

> Anything specific, DDT?



This might start another thread...I'm just considering the fact that Italy doesn't support talented Italian artists (and I include painters, sculptors, writers, directors, photographers, etc).
Just a little example:
Milano played a leading role in contemporary art right after the end of WWII until the beginning of the 60's...yet there doesn't exist any contemporary art museum in Milano.
The list would be long and boring...I am simply disappointed with the cultural breakdown in my country

DDT


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## cuchuflete

Hola DDT-- and this could start yet another new thread:  What, if anything, should be the role of the state (government) in supporting the arts?

Until rather recently, the arts were supported by wealthy individuals, and received not a céntimo from governments. This is still largely true in many nations.  

Does the presence of state financial support for the arts contribute to a healthier cultural life?  What about censorship of writers and artists who disagree with the regime in power?  In my country (Stati Uniti), a federal government organization tried to direct the development of artistic life by granting or denying funds to certain artists.  

This is not a simple question.  With money comes control.  Do you wish to see allies of the current government in your country deciding which artists are paid, and which are not?

un abbraccio,
Cuciu



			
				DDT said:
			
		

> This might start another thread...I'm just considering the fact that Italy doesn't support talented Italian artists (and I include painters, sculptors, writers, directors, photographers, etc).
> Just a little example:
> Milano played a leading role in contemporary art right after the end of WWII until the beginning of the 60's...yet there doesn't exist any contemporary art museum in Milano.
> The list would be long and boring...I am simply disappointed with the cultural breakdown in my country
> 
> DDT


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## archimede

DDT said:
			
		

> if there's something risking to die in Italy that's culture, for it's less and less supported...


As I see it, the major risk comes from culture being less and less *practiced*: I mean, if we'd compare (provided ther's a way to measure it) the present average cultural level of the population to the level of 30-40 years ago, I'm afraid we might have an unpleasant surprise. 

Alessandro


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## DDT

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Hola DDT-- and this could start yet another new thread:  What, if anything, should be the role of the state (government) in supporting the arts?
> 
> Until rather recently, the arts were supported by wealthy individuals, and received not a céntimo from governments. This is still largely true in many nations.
> 
> Does the presence of state financial support for the arts contribute to a healthier cultural life?  What about censorship of writers and artists who disagree with the regime in power?  In my country (Stati Uniti), a federal government organization tried to direct the development of artistic life by granting or denying funds to certain artists.
> 
> This is not a simple question.  With money comes control.  Do you wish to see allies of the current government in your country deciding which artists are paid, and which are not?
> 
> un abbraccio,
> Cuciu




The point is not I'm partial to government support, I'm aware of the related dangers...but as far as institutions are the main stakeholder you have to cope/deal with and everything is being enslaved to image and therefore stuck...well, there's no point to "produce" culture, I'm afraid...

DDT


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## mddb

(i write in spanish because i can't get to express myself correctly in english, please excuse me)

Creo que el problema de las palabras importadas no viene de la importación en sí, ya que, como se ha dicho ya en este _thread_ (!!), todos los idiomas lo han hecho y lo hacen. El problema está en importar palabras que no son necesarias puesto que ya existe alguna otra en el idioma para expresar esa idea o ese concepto.

Así, cuando surge una realidad nueva (como, en tiempos, el cine, la radio, internet más recientemente), las palabras se han de crear para todos los idiomas, ya que nada había anteriormente que lo expresara. En estos casos, se crea un neologismo en el idioma creador de la nueva realidad, y se exporta al resto de idiomas, que lo adaptan o no por criterios fonéticos y culturales que lo hacen más fácilmente digerible.

Ahora bien, el problema hoy en día es que el inglés está fagocitando a muchos otros idiomas, exportando palabras que no son necesarias, palabras que desplazan o destruyen a palabras autóctonas que van cayendo en desuso frente al moderno, rutilante y guay inglés.

Soy una persona política, y sitúo la responsabilidad de esta situación en la cultura del beneficio rápido que el capitalismo está imponiendo, pero esto ya es otra historia y, desde luego, mucho más opinable.

Pero creo que el apuntar que las adopciones de vocablos extranjeros es beneficiosa y sana para la vida de un idioma siempre que no expulsen a voces propias, en cual caso suponen un empobrecimiento, puede ayudar a relanzar el debate.

Para los que lean Español, os recomiendo leer los "Dardos en la Palabra", del académico Lazarro Carreter, en los que señala este y otros problemas del idioma, con una ironía muy sana.


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## cuchuflete

Mddb,

Muchísimas gracias.  Has escrito perféctamente lo que opino yo del la mala influencia del nuevo idioma 'mundial'.

También me ha encantado el verbo fagocitar...antes desconocido para mí.

un saludo,
Cuchuflete


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## Silvia

archimede said:
			
		

> @Silvia:
> 
> grazie per la comprensione ed il supporto! Spero che qualche anima buona (e capace ) vorrà tradurre in inglese il tuo post a beneficio di tutti.


 I too wish someone could do that


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## pinkpanter

mddb said:
			
		

> Para los que lean Español, os recomiendo leer los "Dardos en la Palabra", del académico Lazarro Carreter, en los que señala este y otros problemas del idioma, con una ironía muy sana.



Sí, coincido contigo, se aprende mucho con ese libro.


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## lsp

silviap said:
			
		

> ...abolendo la pizza al forno a legna o taluni formaggi tipici italiani...


Kidding, right? Exaggerating to make a point?! You can't be serious!


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## cuchuflete

lsp said:
			
		

> Kidding, right? Exaggerating to make a point?! You can't be serious!



Lsp--sad but true..that's why our Spanish friends sometimes say,

burrrrrrrocrat



> In Europe, the main point of contention centers on what Slow Food refers to as hyper-hygienic regulations originating with the European Union. Over the last few years, the E.U. has been creating uniform food safety standards, which each member country is required to implement through national laws.
> 
> While many of these rules are reasonable, others have made traditional techniques illegal. In Orvieto, Italy, the last surviving producer of cenerino, a local cheese, must break the law to continue his craft. Cenerino is made from sheep's milk taken during March, April or May, when the fat content is highest. It is covered with oak ash, wrapped in walnut leaves and aged for two years. The process fails meet E.U. standards. *Other foods threatened with the chopping block include fossa cheese aged in underground pits, Tuscan pig lard made in marble vats, pasta made with raw eggs and dried in the open air, and even wood-fired pizza*, which the E.U. fears may contain small amounts of carcinogenic ash.


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## lsp

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Lsp--sad but true..that's why our Spanish friends sometimes say,
> 
> burrrrrrrocrat
> 
> ​


Hardly progress. Thanks for cluing me in, I really thought it was just hyperbole for the sake of making a point. ¡Que lastima! I must plan my next visit soon, while I can still enjoy these local specialties (which as far as I can tell, haven't been killing Italians - or appreciative guests all these years).


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## Benjy

sometimes there really aren't words to describe (well not appropriate ones anyway) what i think about certain eu initiatives. lets make it illegal to sell things in pounds and ounces, only metric will do! lets ban wood fired furnaces, they clearly are causing cancer! WHY?? =[


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## cuchuflete

lsp said:
			
		

> Thanks for cluing me in, I really thought it was just hyperbole for the sake of making a point.



Silvia only uses hyperbole to counter my own exaggerated arguments


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## cuchuflete

Benjy said:
			
		

> sometimes there really aren't words to describe (well not appropriate ones anyway) what i think about certain eu initiatives. lets make it illegal to sell things in pounds and ounces, only metric will do! lets ban wood fired furnaces, they clearly are causing cancer! WHY?? =[



Benjy...obvious motive: job security for petty burrrrrocrats. 
Support the paper industry by printing billions of pages of dumb rules.
Obvious free-market capitalist plot for world domination. Watch out, or one of these days you will have to drive on the wrong(!) side of the road.

Just remember the old proverb:  Beauty is only skin deep, but stupid goes clear to the bone.


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## Marc1

Benjy said:
			
		

> sometimes there really aren't words to describe (well not appropriate ones anyway) what i think about certain eu initiatives. lets make it illegal to sell things in pounds and ounces, only metric will do! lets ban wood fired furnaces, they clearly are causing cancer! WHY?? =[



The European Parliament is the most redundant, secretive, incompetent, and corrup parlaiment ever invented on the face of the earth. Hitler's inner circle on egle's nest was a retiree's country club in comparison.
Ban wood fired pizza? you've seen nothing yet.


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## Benjy

Marc1 said:
			
		

> The European Parliament is the most redundant, secretive, incompetent, and corrup parlaiment ever invented on the face of the earth. Hitler's inner circle on egle's nest was a retiree's country club in comparison.
> Ban wood fired pizza? you've seen nothing yet.



=[

thats what i'm scared of. i hate politics. democracy is such a joke, yet tony blair is trying his hardest to sign over what little sovereignty we have left as fast as he can to bruxelles. i don't get it :s


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## lsp

It's all very grim. Sounds like something only Bush could have suggested, Guess we haven't cornered the market on bad leadership, a dubious honor to share with the rest of the world.


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## cuchuflete

Benjy said:
			
		

> =[
> 
> thats what i'm scared of. i hate politics. democracy is such a joke, yet tony blair is trying his hardest to sign over what little sovereignty we have left as fast as he can to bruxelles. i don't get it :s



Burrrrocracia breeds homogenization of culture until there is nothing left to regulate.  For years some Europeans bemoaned the encroachment of <<American Culture>> _sic._  The democratically elected "leaders" then appointed burrrrocrats to create a European entity sufficiently robust to withstand the American behemoth.  This entity is now striving with all its considerable might to extirpate the culture of its member states.

The eventual result, if this movement is not guided by a little common sense, will be a potent economic power, whose cultural distinction from the evil Americans will be round electric plugs instead of flat ones.








 symbol of the evil empire.






symbol of civilization


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## Marc1

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> ....carcinogenic ash etc



Such concern is heading in the right direction. Benzopyrene resulting from burning wood is in fact carcinogenic. The problem is that it is not only from burning wood, but from burning anything organic, so there is benzopyrene in toast, i barbaque and in pizza made in an electric oven if it burns even a little at the edges. 
Smoking sausages produces a large ammount of benzopyrene, fireplaces and any othe fire does to ban wood fire pizzas is like tryint to stop pedestrian from being killed on the road crossings, by disallowing the pedestrian crossing on an out of town country road. 

It is laughable how Europe wants to play neet with food when they have indroduced with eagerness unleaded petrol by repalcing Lead tetraethylene with Bencene, a worst pollutant then Lead and a powerful carcinogenic. Of course I did not go into lackers and glues, PVC and a miriad of other polimers that produce fumes that fill houses with carcinogenic products. 
Carpets and house paint do the same...did I mention Teflon? Did you know that if you overheat Teflon in your pan, and you have a bird in the kitchen the bird will drop dead? (Dupont of course will tell you that such is an exageration and that teflon if kept below 150 degrees is perfectly safe). 

Banning wood fire ovens is a step in the right direction you say? Oh yes, how about banning herbicides and pesticides and irradiation of fruits and vegies to extend shelf life? what about banning genetically modified crops untill we really know what the long term effects in the food chain are? A bit of neet picking at the mad cow desease fiasco would have helped, not to mention to exumate from it's quickly dug grave, the study that places one of the reasons for mad cow on the concentraded inscticed used on cows and poored along their back bone.

Want more? Packaged food is packed with carcinogenic products, start with the colours and flavour "enhancers" the suiteners and the fat substitute, the fumes from the hot polimers used to package them and I can go on and on.

Did you know that the European Parliament tried to legislate to prevent you and me to buy VITAMINES without a prescription? Such move, dicated by the corporations that would benefit from monopolising production, turning vitamines from what they are, a form of food, into a "drug"  turning them into a lucrative regualted market. It was only a concerted effor of citizen who swamped the parliament with protest e-mails blocking their computer servers for days and preventing it from being passed.

The amount of benzopyrene in a pizza backed in a wood oven is negligible if compared to the amount we ingest every day from cooking our own food on an electric stove.

ps

Do yourself a favour and throw away your teflon cooking utensiles and your sugar subsitutes.


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## cuchuflete

Thanks Marc1,

I tend to eat lots of organic foods, some of which I grow myself.  Self-regulation in the interest of better flavor.  

As to Teflon and the bird in the kitchen...I bet Dupont is keeping the best for last:
If the bird drops dead and falls into the Teflon-coated pan, it won't stick!

Technology is marvelous, isn't it?

Both the US and EU are developing technology to mass produce burrrocrats that will, on computer generated command, emit regulations that are difficult to digest, but are said to be good for us.

I think I'll stick with [no pun intended] celery and perhaps the odd peanut.

cheers,
Cuchu


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## archimede

I'm reading with extreme interest this last round of posts: in the light of all this, maybe someone will reconsider his/her optimism about the destiny of Italian (and other) language(s)...

Alessandro


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## Outsider

Benjy said:
			
		

> sometimes there really aren't words to describe (well not appropriate ones anyway) what i think about certain eu initiatives. lets make it illegal to sell things in pounds and ounces, only metric will do!


If all member states use the same units, it will be easier to make a product in England (say), and then sell it in Poland, for instance.
That one makes sense.


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## cuchuflete

Outsider said:
			
		

> If all member states use the same units, it will be easier to make a product in England (say), and then sell it in Poland, for instance.
> That one makes sense.



Outsider,
Your statement is correct, as far as it goes.  The issue is that over-regulation can suppress or eradicate valuable cultural differences, while facilitating commerce.

ciao,
Cuchuflete


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## Benjy

Outsider said:
			
		

> If all member states use the same units, it will be easier to make a product in England (say), and then sell it in Poland, for instance.
> That one makes sense.



and you don't think that we don't measure things in metric anyways?  what i'm talking about is eu inspectors confiscating a market merchants scales and threatening him with a fine or imprisonment because his scales were in imperial measures only. is that really necessary? :s

http://www.metricmartyrs.sageweb.co.uk/


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## cuchuflete

Benjy said:
			
		

> and you don't think that we don't measure things in metric anyways?  what i'm talking about is eu inspectors confiscating a market merchants scales and threatening him with a fine or imprisonment because his scales were in imperial measures only. is that really necessary? :s
> 
> http://www.metricmartyrs.sageweb.co.uk/



If I may weigh in on this topic (all puns intended!), it does raise a good question about the supposed economic benefits of uniformity.  If 100,000
small shopkeepers in England have to buy new scales to comply with an EU regulation, and millions of printed catalogues using imperial measure have to go to landfills, and be replaced by new ones with metric descriptions.....etc.,
on a net present value basis, how many years will it take for England to 'break even', or get back to zero gain/zero loss, based on potential *incremental* sales of widgets to Rumania and Danmark?

I don't doubt that there would be be some longer term economies in production, labeling, marketing and so forth, but for the English economy as a whole, it might be decades to recoup the costs of conversion.

And if it means doing away with deliciously carcinogenic wood-fired pizza, is it really worth the bother?

Cuchu


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## Silvia

The metric issue is the same as the currency issue. We had to adapt ourselves, I don't see why the English shouldn't. Should they learn to adapt themselves? Will they one of these days? 
That's valid for languages too, just to get back on topic 

P.S.: lsp, not only I was not kidding, but if you want to have a good laugh, did you know bananas have to comply with precise sizes?! The offsize bananas are for gorillas only


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## cuchuflete

silviap said:
			
		

> The metric issue is the same as the currency issue. We had to adapt ourselves, I don't see why the English shouldn't. Should they learn to adapt themselves? Will they one of these days?
> That's valid for languages too, just to get back on topic
> 
> P.S.: lsp, not only I was not kidding, but if you want to have a good laugh, did you know bananas have to comply with precise sizes?! The offsize bananas are for gorillas only



Silvia...here's some respectful disagreement.

Your second paragraph points out the idiocy of the burrrocracy.  It imposes comformity on all participating nations, ignoring both culture and, it seems, common sense.  You seem to find this amusing.  I do too.  I also find it frightening and appalling.

With that as background, your first paragraph says that Britain should submit to the rule of the lowest common denominator.  The fact that Italy has succumbed to something is not, in itself, a reason for another nation to do so.  Italy may have had very sound reasons to take the choice it did.
That does not imply that all other nations share the same reasons.

If the petty functionaries in Brusselles can dictate the way Pizza is cooked, what's to stop them from imposing a single language, or declaring that use of the letters gn in Italian and the ñ in Spanish and the nh in Portuguese must be uniformly replaced by 'ny'?  (notice...I got back on topic?)
Is the alphabet no less a sign of culture than wood fired pizza? 

un abbraccio,
Cuciu


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## lsp

silviap said:
			
		

> P.S.: lsp, not only I was not kidding, but if you want to have a good laugh, did you know bananas have to comply with precise sizes?! The offsize bananas are for gorillas only


  Madness!


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## cuchuflete

lsp said:
			
		

> Madness!



God bless EU regulators!!!


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