# The cat is out of the bag



## ThomasK

I did not know the expression in English, but it is quite different from Dutch: "De aap komt uit de mouw" [The ape comes out of the sleeve" literally]. 

How about the version in your language?


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## Yendred

In French, in the sense of something which was a secret but is not any more because it was revealed, we would say:
_vendre la mèche _(literally _to sell the fuse_) = to let the cat out of the bag
_on a vendu la mèche _(literally _the fuse was sold_) = the cat is out of the bag

The idea is that the fuse (_mèche_) of an explosive issue is given away (_vendue_) before it might have exploded and create surprise and/or damages.


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## Penyafort

In Spanish, I'd say:

*Se ha descubierto el pastel* (Lit., the cake has been uncovered)​​In Catalan:
​*S'ha descobert el marro* [səðəsku'βεɾtəɫ'maru] (Lit., the dregs/muddle has been uncovered/discovered)​​Or, probably as a calque from the Spanish above:

*S'ha descobert el pastís* [səðəsku'βεɾtəɫpəs'tis] (Lit., the cake has been uncovered)​


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## ThomasK

In Dutch the fact is not that explosive. 

I notice that the metaphors are quite different. Might the meanings be a little different? 
- Dutch: finally everything becomes clear
- French: explosive discovery of the truth (with risks)
- Spanish/... : mud and cake have a different connotation ; is the truth ugly perhaps, or does the truth taste good??? ;-)


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> French: explosive discovery of the truth (with risks)



The idea is the secret was explosive because of the surprise it would have created, but the surprise is not necessarily negative. See the following examples:

_Je voulais faire une surprise à ma copine pour son anniversaire et l'inviter au restaurant, mais sa mère a vendu la mèche._
(I wanted to surprise my girlfriend for her birthday and invite her to the restaurant, but her mother let the cat out of the bag)

_Les terroristes voulaient commettre un attentat mais leurs complices ont vendu la mèche, et ils ont été arrêtés avant._
(The terrorists wanted to carry out an attack but their accomplices let the cat out of the bag, and they were arrested before they did)

I don't know if the English expression suits in both cases.


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## Awwal12

Curiosly, in Russian "a tomcat in the bag/sack" (кот в мешке, "kót v meshké") means something of unknown qualities, but the expression about letting the cat out of the bag is absent.

However, there is an expression "you cannot hide an awl in a sack" (шила в мешке не утаишь, "shíla v meshké ne utaísh" - about something which cannot be hidden for long), and a related "the awl has come out of the sack" (when everything is revealed, just as expected).

Still there is no FULL proverbial equivalent for "the cat is out of the bag" in Russian. Some authors (and especially translators) simply translate the English expression, but it isn't proper Russian anyway.


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## Yendred

Awwal12 said:


> Still there is no FULL proverbial equivalent for "the cat is out of the bag" in Russian



My dictionary suggests "раскрыть тайну" but it seems this literally means "_unravel the mystery_".


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## Circunflejo

ThomasK said:


> does the truth taste good???



The origin of _se ha descubierto el pastel_ is said to date back to times in which the cake makers (sometimes) didn't insert as much filling as anounced (or any at all) so clients asked them to cut the cake to discover if it had the anounced filling.


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## ThomasK

Very interesting note on the background!


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## ThomasK

Italian: (act., causative) "far uscire il gatto del sacco", just the same as in the other Romanic languages...

Just BTW: we do not have "*to let *the cat out of the bag", only the (static/dynamic) conclusion: "the cat comes out of the bag". it might be interesting to distinguish them in our answers: * causative (let) vs. spontaneous/...*"...

In that respect Russian seems to opens up a can of "catty" expressions, which we might treat at the Language Lab, and an interesting new metaphor for the original expression introducing an owl.


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## Yendred

ThomasK said:


> we do not have "to let the cat out of the bag", only the (static) conclusion: "the c at is out of the bag".



Ok thanks, so no idiomatic way to translate the French "_il/elle a vendu la mèche_" as in my examples?


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## ThomasK

We might refer to betrayal, saying things that should not be said: _*verraden *_(but that is really tragic: to betray someone) or *verklikken *(like children do, hoping to win someone over and get a reward, but betraying of course their friend: "Mum, my friend has stolen the money!" - denouncing, tattling, especially *squealing*...). We can also u*it de school klappe*n (talk from/ out of the school) when we - without realizing that - uncover secrets... 

But I think those do not fit in perfectly here... It becomes clear to me now that we are all focussing on (un)covering the truth, but that things are so different. That will be a topic for the Language Lab again, I suppose. 

However, I hope for some mor_e _*(Verb)-cat/...-(Verb)-out of-bag/... stuff *here*...*


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## Demiurg

ThomasK said:


> Italian: (act., causative) "far uscire il gatto del sacco", just the same as in the other Romanic languages...
> 
> Just BTW: we do not have "*to let *the cat out of the bag", only the (static/dynamic) conclusion: "the cat comes out of the bag". it might be interesting to distinguish them in our answers: * causative (let) vs. spontaneous/...*"...


Interesting. German is more like Italian than Dutch in this regard: _die Katze aus dem Sack lassen_.
Referring to the result is also possible: _Die Katze ist aus dem Sack._


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## Olaszinhok

In Italian it is: far uscire il gatto *dal *sacco, but it is not that common, in my view. It is way more usual: *vuotare il sacco *(literally to empty the sack/the bag) let the cat out of the bag...


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## ThomasK

@Demiurg : vielen Dank! ;-)
@Olaszinhok: is there a static or moving version, like our "cat is getting out of the bag"?


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## Olaszinhok

ThomasK said:


> is there a static or moving version, like our "cat is getting out of the bag"?


No, there isn't, as far as I know...


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## Roxxxannne

Awwal12 said:


> Curiosly, in Russian "a tomcat in the bag/sack" (кот в мешке, "kót v meshké") means something of unknown qualities


That sounds similar to 'buying a pig in a poke' in English. A poke is a small bag.


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## ThomasK

It might be interesting to go into these "truth" expressions (well, truth and honesty - but to some extent they share truthfulness, I suppose). But maybe in a separate thread at the Language Lab...


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## Welsh_Sion

Welsh: 'gollwng y gath allan o'r cwd' = to drop the cat out of the bag = to let the cat out of the bag, to let something slip out (usually intentionally).

'prynu cath mewn cwd' = to buy a cat in a bag = to buy a pig in a poke. (cf. The Russian expression using cats cited by Awwal12, above).


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## ThomasK

The truth threads have been started at the Language Lab: hiding and revealing, respectively...


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## AndrasBP

There are no cats or monkeys in the Hungarian phrase, we say "the *nail *came out of the sack" (= the sharp point made a hole in the fabric):

*Ki**bújt a szög a zsákból.* - literally: *out-stuck the nail the sack-from*


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## ThomasK

That is quite new, thanks!


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## apmoy70

Greek:

*«Βγάζω τ' άπλυτα στη φόρα»* [ˈvɣa.zɔ ˈtap.li.ta sti ˈfɔ.ɾa] --> _to expose the dirty laundry in public_

*«Φόρα»* [ˈfɔ.ɾa] (fem. nom. sing.) is Byz.Gr and comes from the pl. fora of Lat. neut. sing. forum --> _public place, marketplace, forum_


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## ThomasK

Yes, a very good one: we use it too for showing/ exhibiting the truth: _de vuile was buiten hangen_...


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## ThomasK

French: I find _acheter (un) chat en poche_  somewhere. Isn't that OK?


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## merquiades

Yendred said:


> The idea is the secret was explosive because of the surprise it would have created, but the surprise is not necessarily negative. See the following examples:
> 
> _Je voulais faire une surprise à ma copine pour son anniversaire et l'inviter au restaurant, mais sa mère a vendu la mèche._
> (I wanted to surprise my girlfriend for her birthday and invite her to the restaurant, but her mother let the cat out of the bag)
> 
> _Les terroristes voulaient commettre un attentat mais leurs complices ont vendu la mèche, et ils ont été arrêtés avant._
> (The terrorists wanted to carry out an attack but their accomplices let the cat out of the bag, and they were arrested before they did)
> 
> I don't know if the English expression suits in both cases.


I guess it is technically fine in both cases.
Personally I wouldn't use it in the second case.  Since I hardly use that expression and when I do it's in trivial cases like your first example, the second one talking about terriorists strikes me as odd.
I'd say "The terrorists wanted to carry out an attact but their accomplices sold them out / threw them under the bus, and they were arrested before they could do it."

By the way, wouldn't _mèche_ be better translated as _wick_ than _fuse_?


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## Zareza

In Romanian

We hadn't planned to announce it for a while... but since you've _let the cat out of the bag_...

to let the cat out of the bag = *a scăpa porumbelul* (to let the pigeon out (of the cage, of my hands) - with the meaning that the pigeon's owner was not cautious_, _careful)

Oh, what a revelation! Until now I thought the pigeon was... out of the mouth... all my childhood I imagined this.


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## asad7080

translation in urdu language
بلی بیگ سے باہر ہے۔


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## ThomasK

So exactly the same. Could that be a calque, like a translation? (Just wondering...)


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## Zareza

ThomasK said:


> So exactly the same. Could that be a calque, like a translation? (Just wondering...)


Which post are you referring to?


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## ThomasK

I thought of Asad7080's Urdu version…


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## Zareza

ThomasK said:


> I thought of Asad7080's Urdu version…


Could you translate in English what it is in Urdu version?
UPDATE: Ok, I understand. The Urdu version is the same in English version, the title of the thread.

بلی بیگ سے باہر ہے۔  = The cat is out of the bag.


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## ThomasK

Well, I rely on Google T and it tells me that is literally: "The cat is out of the bag."


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## Zareza

ThomasK said:


> I rely on Google T


I did the same  Long Live the... Google T


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## nimak

Awwal12 said:


> Curiosly, in Russian "a tomcat in the bag/sack" (кот в мешке, "kót v meshké") means something of unknown qualities, but the expression about letting the cat out of the bag is absent.



In Macedonian we have that saying too:

*мачка во вреќа* (mačka vo vreḱa) _"a cat in a sack"_


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## AndrasBP

Awwal12 said:


> Curiosly, in Russian "a tomcat in the bag/sack" (кот в мешке, "kót v meshké") means something of unknown qualities





nimak said:


> In Macedonian we have that saying too:
> 
> *мачка во вреќа* (mačka vo vreḱa) _"a cat in a sack"_


Same in Hungarian: *zsákbamacska *(sack-in + cat)


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## ThomasK

Some general ideas about this thread
- it is mostly a cat, but it might be an owl or a dove; in French it is about the wick being sold, in Spanish about the content of a cake, or the nail in HUngarian... 
- I happen to notice now: it is a tom-cat in some cases, but in general it is just a cat. it would be odd to refer to a tom-cat in our expression in Dutch.
- I have come to realize that in some cases people decide to let the truth come to light, whereas in some cases it happens inadvertently or without any premeditation. Our expression refers to truth revealing itself,

Hanging out the dirty laundry is slightly different; no suddenness involved, only the "ugly truth", with a special intention...

Buying cats in bags is also different: that is about cheating and making a mistake while buying, lit. or fig.


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## Awwal12

ThomasK said:


> I happen to notice now: it is a tom-cat in some cases, but it would be odd to refer to a tom-cat in our expression in Dutch.


It's all about general marking of gender for cats, actually. Two main questions are 1) what is the default gender of a generic animal from some species and 2) what is the situation with morphological marking of that gender. In Russian cats are generically feminine, but it's also female cats which take additional morphological marking (cf. f. "koshka" vs. m. "kot"; -t in "koshka" was removed according to an old diminutive/augmentative morphological pattern). So it's natural that tomcats sometimes take precedence.


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## ThomasK

That is quite true. Still, I suppose the use of "tom-cat" was a marked choice, i thought, non-default...


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## Awwal12

In English it's truly so, because tomcats are both non-default and bearing additional marking. It's also basically the same in German (Katz(e) vs. Kater); not sure about Dutch.

Russian is different, though, for the reasons described above.


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## ThomasK

In Dutch is it is even more complex, you could say: 
default : *kat *(grammatically feminine)
non-default: *kater *(m.)
id.: *kattin *(f.), not very common though


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## Encolpius

AndrasBP said:


> There are no cats or monkeys in the Hungarian phrase, we say "the *nail *came out of the sack" (= the sharp point made a hole in the fabric):
> 
> *Ki**bújt a szög a zsákból.* - literally: *out-stuck the nail the sack-from*



How would you define the Hungarian idiom? Because I think it means something different.  It seems *cat's out of the bag* means a secret has been revealed, so they are rather "false friends". But I bet the thread opener did not want exact translations just similar interesting phrases. While I have got the feeling the Dutch phrase means what the Hungarian one means, but I speak little Dutch, so....But here are no definitions, no contexts, so...


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## AndrasBP

Encolpius said:


> How would you define the Hungarian idiom? Because I think it means something different. It seems *cat's out of the bag* means a secret has been revealed, so they are rather "false friends".


Yes, you're right that the meaning of the Hungarian phrase is somewhat different, but I'd say it's still pretty close to the "cat" phrase: 
"someone's true intentions (which he tried to keep _secret_) have been revealed".

Don't you agree?


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## Encolpius

Well, András, details matter  I think it would be good to have some context if we want to learn here something or just make lists of phrases and disappear. I have not known the English phrase, and how should I know what the Dutch phrase means, well I use Google and I have the feeling it means something different. It would be appreciated to have some comments from natives what those English and Dutch phrases mean. I used to visit WR to learn.


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## ThomasK

Indeed, I pointed some of those aspects in #37: we need to pay attention that we refer to the same meanings... That is why I opened up a thread on truth expressions elsewhere...


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## hui

In Finnish, there is the expression *nostaa kissa pöydälle *= _to lift the cat onto the table._
It means "revealing" a generally known awkward or difficult fact that everyone has avoided bringing up.


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## ThomasK

I would think it is not really the same, whereas it might be. But we are simply not used to really letting cats out of the bag, which might mean the same: something like deliberately bringing to light the ugly truth. Yet, in your case it is a generally known fact. I suspect that in English it is not, but it is ugly or at least "confronting" .


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## Roxxxannne

There is a difference between a truth that one is merely trying to conceal and a truth that one is trying to disguise.
To me, without knowing the Hungarian context, a nail coming out of a sack is a poorly concealed, neutral truth: one is not trying to pass off the nail as an orange, say.
A cat coming out of a bag is (originally) a poorly concealed, negative truth: the seller is trying to pass off the bagged cat as a piglet. 
The most important feature of a proverb is the situation to which it applies.  The literal meaning of the words, though, might tell you something about the culture in which the proverb arose (for instance, that at some point in English-speaking history, someone sold cats in bags, claiming they were other, more valuable, animals.)


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## Encolpius

Very interesting comment. Roxane.


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