# All Slavic languages: the letter f



## jazyk

I've been for some time now under the impression that Slavic languages don't like the letter f too much. There are very few pages in my Polish, Czech and Russian dictionaries with it and most of the words are of non-Slavic sources. Once I read Greek theta has been transliterated into Russian ф. What's up with all this?

Thank you all.


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## Kriviq

The approximate frequences of the letters in Bulgarian texts in percents are as follows:

а 11,60    ж    0,77    м  2,68    т  7,38    ш  0,42
  б  1,65    з    2,36    н  8,09    у  1,54    щ  0,43
  в  4,71    и    8,82    о  8,75    ф  0,37    ъ  1,71
  г  1,19    й    0,32    п  3,05    х  0,67    ь  0,01
  д  3,11    к    2,99    р  5,42    ц  0,75    ю  0,11
  е  9,21    л    3,57    с  5,02    ч  1,44    я  1,86 

Here is what Петър Дънов had to say about the letter f: "The letter f is loaded with wicked vibrations. If you think that the name of a person doesn`t matter, then marry a woman whose name begins with f and you will know better."


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## Outsider

jazyk said:


> Once I read Greek theta has been transliterated into Russian phi. What's up with all this?


Sound changes. It's not unlike pronouncing the Engish word "think" as "fink".


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## palomnik

As far as Russian goes, Θ was a letter of the alphabet until 1918. It was pronounced as an "f", as was Russian ф. Dostoyevski's first name was Θёдор, which was Russian for Theodore. In the 1918 spelling reform Θ was dropped out of the alphabet, along with several other letters that were redundant in modern Russian and/or were only used in Greek words. It was replaced by ф in all positions, so Dostoyevski became Фёдор.

Pronouncing Θ as an "f" has been around since Church Slavonic was first written over a thousand years ago, and it does indeed seem that the Slavic languages don't like the sound, although I have no explanation for that fact.


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## Athaulf

palomnik said:


> Pronouncing Θ as an "f" has been around since Church Slavonic was first written over a thousand years ago, and it does indeed seem that the Slavic languages don't like the sound, although I have no explanation for that fact.



Are there actually any native Slavic words that contain the _f_ sound? Any Croatian word containing _f_ that I can think of is of foreign origin. I guess in Russian one could find native words where _v_ is devoiced into _f_, but  in Croatian we don't even have that (devoicing is never applied to _v_).


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## tkekte

Well it's pretty simple, as the European languages were splitting up from their ancestral proto-language, they developed different sound changes. Germanic languages developed the phoneme /f/ from Indo-European /p/, thus _*pəter_ becoming _father_, while Latin developed it from Indo-European /bh/ (and a few other sources), thus _*bhrater_ becoming _frater_. Proto-Slavic didn't develop an /f/ phoneme at all, it had /b/, /p/, and only one labial fricative: /v/. Later, as devoicing appeared, some languages began to devoice /v/ into [f]. This sound was also used to transcribe foreign words, coming from Latin, Greek, Germanic, and other sources.


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## Jana337

I have been trying to find a native word with "f" but no success.  Long ago, I read somewhere that the frequency of "f" in the Czech language increased after 1989 when words like "federation" (an evergreen topic back in Czechoslovakia) and "finance" were started to be used frequently. But I don't remember the text well enough to tell whether it was meant completely seriously.

The frequency of "f" remains low but let me add that we do not perceive it as a "foreign" letter (unlike "x", "w", "q"). Maybe because we use the sound so often (unlike Croats, we do devoicing of "v")?


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## Athaulf

tkekte said:


> Proto-Slavic didn't develop an /f/ phoneme at all, it had /b/, /p/, and only one labial fricative: /v/. Later, as devoicing appeared, some languages began to devoice /v/ into [f]. This sound was also used to transcribe foreign words, coming from Latin, Greek, Germanic, and other sources.



That explains it pretty well. 



Jana337 said:


> The frequency of "f" remains low but let me add that we do not perceive it as a "foreign" letter (unlike "x", "w", "q"). Maybe because we use the sound so often (unlike Croats, we do devoicing of "v")?



We don't perceive it as a foreign letter either, and words containing it blend into the spoken language seamlessly. There is nothing unnatural about words like _film_, _profesor_, _flaša_... despite the lack of _f_ in the Slavic core of the language. I'd guess it probably entered the language from German and/or Turkish.

(To be more precise, some dialects of Croatian do devoice _v_, but that's a strictly local phenomenon.)


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## werrr

Jana337 said:


> I have been trying to find a native word with "f" but no success.


Besides of onomatopoeic words, the only native words with “f” are that of the family of the verb “doufat”.


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## tkekte

Oh yes, that word exists in other languages too. Polish, and supposedly also in Bulgarian and Serbian/Croatian. (Though I've never seen it in Bulgarian) The f there comes from a contraction of /p/ and /v/. The proto-form was something like _upъvati_. The word pevný comes from the same root. 

Here is also something I found (I wasn't sure of the proto-form, so I googled), confirming what I just wrote...


> V 15. století se české "úfat" používá většinou ve významu "doufat", nikoli "věřit". Holub-Lyer to odvozují z "upъvati", vzniklého předponou "u" z kmene "pъv", který se nalézá třeba v "pevný" nebo "pnout".
> 
> Na druhou stranu je tu nepřehlédnutelná podobnost s německým "hoffen".


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## Irbis

It seems that the above also applies for Slovenian.
I'm just not sure where we got word "fant" (boy).


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## jazyk

That probably comes from Italian fante (infantryman) or infant (infant).


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## Nanon

palomnik said:


> (...) it does indeed seem that the Slavic languages don't like the sound, although I have no explanation for that fact.


 
Maybe we should say that it is not the sound of "f" but just the _grapheme _that is not so popular, because devoicing of v is common to several Slavic languages, as Jana already pointed out for Czech. Otherwise, there would not be that many old-fashioned transliterations of Russian names ending in -off or -eff ("beef Strogonoff", etc...).


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## Outsider

But that devoicing may be a recent phenomenon. Even if it isn't, I think what people were getting at in this thread was that in more ancient Slavic languages /f/ did not exist as an independent phoneme. At best, [f] and [v] were allophones.


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## Oletta

jazyk said:


> I've been for some time now under the impression that Slavic languages don't like the letter f too much. There are very few pages in my Polish, Czech and Russian dictionaries with it and most of the words are of non-Slavic sources. Once I read Greek theta has been transliterated into Russian ф. What's up with all this?
> 
> Thank you all.



No doubt you are right. "F" in Slavic languages has foreign roots. In Protoslavic the sound  "f" was foreign, it appeared as an alternation of "chw" and "ch"; in 14 and 15 centuries the language "hesitated" and its own words as well as the borrowed ones were pronunced either as "chw" or "f", as in the example of Polish "chwała" and "fała" and finaly "chw" was replaced by "f" in the written form first, and then in the pronunciation. In Polish still, although rare, are the remnants of the "ch" in the place of "f", namely in the word originating from German, we can say "kafle" or "kachle" and the meaning stays the same, which is "tiles". 

Before the 5 century a Slav replaced the foreign "f" with "p", in 9 and 10 centuries with "b" and in the 15 century the foreign sound "f" began to be fully accepted.


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## Irbis

What does "chwała" mean? In Slovenian we have word "hvala" meaning "thanks".
And we have colloquial "kahlice" for "tiles" (normal word is "ploščice") and colloquial "kahla" for "bedpan".


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## Oletta

Yes, I know, as in Croatiatian and Serbian "hlava" means "thank you" as well, in Polish it means "glory, praise, splendour", but the Slavic meaning of the word is still used, as we say "chwała ci za to", meaning "dzięki ci za to" = "thanks for it", and "chwała" sounds like "hvaua".


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## dudasd

So far, I have managed to find some (non-borrowed) onomatopoeic words and exclamations. Like "Uf!" and "Fuj!"; verbs fijukati (to whistle, when talking about wind); fićukati (to whistle - about man); frktati (to snort - about cats); derived noun frč (copulating instinct - about cats again, but it probably became from the verb "frčati" = "frktati"); "frfljati"  (to sputter); "fuljati/fulati se" (to draggle) and some more.


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## jazyk

Uf and fuj are found in many languages. They might be borrowings. Fićukati probably comes from Italian fischiare. You may be right about the other words, though.


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## Nanon

Athaulf said:


> Are there actually any native Slavic words that contain the _f_ sound? Any Croatian word containing _f_ that I can think of is of foreign origin. I guess in Russian one could find native words where _v_ is devoiced into _f_, but in Croatian we don't even have that (devoicing is never applied to _v_).


 
I suppose we can propose Russian фыркать, also of probable onomatopoeic origin. Maybe somebody could confirm this, because I don't have access to an etymological dictionary. 

And I was wondering about финифть, too (with two f's!) but is it related to Greek?


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## Maroseika

Nanon said:


> I don't have access to an etymological dictionary.


vasmer.narod.ru
See also фырнуть and фыбздик there.


> And I was wondering about финифть, too (with two f's!) but is it related to Greek?


Strange enough, but initial  "ф" here is of Ancient-Russian origin, while Greek origin had initial "х": др.-русск. финиптъ (Ипатьевск. летоп.), химипетъ (приписка в Мстиславовом еванг. после 1115 г.; см. Соболевский, Лекции 128). Из ср.-греч. χυμευτoν – то же от χυμεuω "смешиваю"


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## kusurija

tkekte said:


> Oh yes, that word exists in other languages too. Polish, and supposedly also in Bulgarian and Serbian/Croatian. (Though I've never seen it in Bulgarian) The f there comes from a contraction of /p/ and /v/. The proto-form was something like _upъvati_. The word pevný comes from the same root.
> 
> Here is also something I found (I wasn't sure of the proto-form, so I googled), confirming what I just wrote...


What about more Czech words: zoufat, foukat, (fěrtoch-this is probably not of Czech origin, but has extremely unusual combination f+ě)


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## tkekte

Zoufat seems like a compound form of ufat, so it's the same root, foukat is onomatopoeia... you have to exclude onomotopoeia from this. (Same goes to the Croatian examples. ) I don't know what fěrtoch means. If it means "apron", then we have this word in Russian too... fartuk. That comes from Middle High German "vortuoch" (apron), but in Modern standard German it's called Schürze. It's strange that it took the form fěrtoch in Czech though... maybe it came to Czech from a dialect where they pronounced it something like "vier-toch".


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## Nanon

Maroseika said:


> vasmer.narod.ru
> See also фырнуть and фыбздик there.



Thanks, Maroseika, for the Vasmer link!
In fact, I was not using my personal computer  and it was not convenient for me to look for Vasmer's dictionary when I responded..... 
It allowed me to check юфть - not a good idea, possibly related to Dutch and German...


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## jana.bo99

Hello,

Croatian

I have found only one F:

On je Fin čovjek - He is Nice person (man)

Hello again,

Slovenian: 3 words with f,

Fant -  Boy
Fižol -  Beans
Figa  -  Fig


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## Outsider

_Figa_ is probably a loan from Latin or Romance.


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## Duya

jana.bo99 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Croatian
> 
> I have found only one F:
> 
> On je Fin čovjek - He is Nice person (man)



That's probably an Western borrowing, either from German "fein", or from Italian... fino?  

I came up with _faliti_ (_nedostajati_), but that doesn't sound Slavic either... Turkish or German?


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## jana.bo99

Hello outsider and Duya,

It is true, when we look in dictionaries, there are half words from somewhere else. Most of them are from Latin origin. 

Fin (Croatian) - Fein (German): are almost the same, but not 100%.

Figa (Slovenian) - Smokva (Croatian - original). Here is Figa out and Smokva is right.


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## kusurija

jana.bo99 said:


> ...Croatian...
> Slovenian: 3 words with f,
> 
> Fant - Boy
> Fižol - Beans
> Figa - Fig


Fižol - it's similar to Czech "fazol" - from Latin/Greece Phaseolus [meaning: long thin boat].


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## Nanon

Duya said:


> I came up with _faliti_ (_nedostajati_), but that doesn't sound Slavic either... Turkish or German?


 
I am not an expert in South Slavic languages, however crossing the prefix _nedo_-(stajati) and _faliti_ brings to my mind a possible Latin origin (_fallere_). To be confirmed, though.


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## kusurija

tkekte said:


> Zoufat seems like a compound form of ufat, so it's the same root, foukat ... ... fěrtoch means. If it means "apron", then ... ... That comes from Middle High German "vortuoch" (apron), but in Modern standard German it's called Schürze. It's strange that it took the form fěrtoch in Czech though... maybe it came to Czech from a dialect where they pronounced it something like "vier-toch".


 (..excuse, I shortened it a bit) I thing You're right.
What about next: troufat si?
And houf? Although similar word houfnice came from German - Haufnitz (great gun), but I thing those words have nothing common.  
(..bewildering is that almost all very suspect Czech words with f has group -ouf  ) (And what about "šoufek"  - OK I know, that it also came from German - sorry, that was only a joke)


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## winpoj

"Although similar word houfnice came from German - Haufnitz (great gun)..."

I'm pretty sure it was the other way round: German Haufnitz came from Czech houfnice, namely during the Hussite wars.


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## Jana337

Correct. Houfnice, in turn, probably has German roots. 
http://www.answers.com/topic/howitzer?cat=technology


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## winpoj

Interesting. That would show that "houf" and "houfnice" do have something in common after all.


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## tkekte

Hehe. So hufe came from MHG to beget houf in Czech which begat houfnice, which begat Haubitze, and that's where Russian гаубица comes from.  Words often follow bizarre paths.

Also I wonder why it's hauf and haufnice in Old Czech, but houf and houfnice in Modern. Historical vowel change? What about words like moucha, did it use to be maucha? :-?


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## Jana337

Please add your question to this thread about diphthongs, and let's talk here about F only.


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## Tolovaj_Mataj

jana.bo99 said:


> Slovenian: 3 words with f,
> 
> Fant - Boy _also lad, youth; youngster; young fellow; lover, boy friend, sweetheart; bachelor; jack, knave;_
> Fižol - Beans
> Figa - Fig


 
Well, there are more, but funny enough the big majority of them are of foreign origine. Also all three of them written above. First two and I guess also the third came from Italian or Friulan.
Fant comes from fante (Italian) which comes from infante (Latin for baby) and has switched the meaning somehere on the way (or maybe it isn't  ).


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## Kriviq

tkekte said:


> Oh yes, that word exists in other languages too. Polish, and supposedly also in Bulgarian and Serbian/Croatian. (Though I've never seen it in Bulgarian) The f there comes from a contraction of /p/ and /v/. The proto-form was something like _upъvati_. The word pevný comes from the same root.



The contemporary Bulgarian word is уповавам (се). 

There is a number of probably Bulgarian words with f: one is ръфам - to lacerate by biting, фашкул - a cyst, caused by burning, изкуфявам - to go senile (the root is кух - hollow). There are several onomatopoeic words - фъфля, фърфалак, фъстя, and a number of dialectal words: изкилифирча - to distort, изтафенвам (се) - to sprawl, дуфтя - to break into a run.


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## jadeite_85

jana.bo99 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Croatian
> 
> I have found only one F:
> 
> On je Fin čovjek - He is Nice person (man)
> 
> Slovenian: 3 words with f,
> 
> Fant -  Boy
> Fižol -  Beans
> Figa  -  Fig



I don't know if they are borrowings from Italian, but there is similiarity between Italian words and Croatian / Slovene words with an f.

fant - fante, infante
fižol - fagiolo
figa - fico
fin čovjek - persona fine


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## Diaspora

There is a tendency in unofficial Serbo-Croatian to convert /hv/ into /f/. Example such as hvala/fala, hvatati/fatati.


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## sokol

Diaspora said:


> There is a tendency in unofficial Serbo-Croatian to convert /hv/ into /f/. Example such as hvala/fala, hvatati/fatati.



Is this typical for (western/northern) Croatian/Bosnian speech? I'm asking because I know that there's a strong tendency especially among Serbian but also partially Bosnian and Croatian dialect speakers (that is, speakers of (Neo)-Štokavian dialects) to drop "h", and without "h" there probably would be no devoicing of "v".
(Except of course if the devoicing process in "hv" would be older than "h" dropping.)


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## Diaspora

Sokol, I am not sure but I think it's more representative of Bosnian speech, more knowledgable posters can provide more info. Also, you will NEVER hear such use of \f\ on television or print.


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## iobyo

Diaspora said:


> There is a tendency in unofficial Serbo-Croatian to convert /hv/ into /f/. Example such as hvala/fala, hvatati/fatati.



This change also occurred in Macedonian but isn't considered colloquial or slang as it is in Serbian and Croatian.


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## Awwal12

> Are there actually any native Slavic words that contain the f sound?


Although phoneme /ф/ (/f/), as well as letter "ф", is very rare in Russian, the sound [f], ironically, is very widespread - as the unvoiced allophone of /в/ (/v/) phoneme.

заявка [zʌj*ä*fkə] - an application, a request
ковка [k*o*fkə] - a smithery, a forging
повтор [pʌft*o*ɾ] - a repeat
готов [gʌt*o*f] - ready (attr., short form)
раков [r*a*kəf] - crayfishes (gen.)
etc...

So one shouldn't mix letters, phonemes and sounds up.


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## phosphore

sokol said:


> Is this typical for (western/northern) Croatian/Bosnian speech? I'm asking because I know that there's a strong tendency especially among Serbian but also partially Bosnian and Croatian dialect speakers (that is, speakers of (Neo)-Štokavian dialects) to drop "h", and without "h" there probably would be no devoicing of "v".
> (Except of course if the devoicing process in "hv" would be older than "h" dropping.)


 
This is quite common in Serbia, where many say _fala_, but this and similar forms are considered rural and funny. For that reason, there are cases of hypercorrection, where people say _hvaliti_ instead of _faliti_, which is considered even more funny.


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## Duya

phosphore said:


> For that reason, there are cases of hypercorrection, where people say _hvaliti_ instead of _faliti_, which is considered even more funny.



Now I'm confused. 

_Faliti _as in _nedostajati_? I've never heard anyone doing such hypercorrection.


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## phosphore

Yes.

It's more of a myth actually, but I _have_ heard it two or three times.


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## trance0

'Faliti' almost certainly comes from German 'fehlen' which means (among other things) 'to lack/miss'.

As for 'hvala' -> 'fala' this is also common in child speech (and possibly some Slovene dialects?).


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## Adnyre

Diaspora said:


> There is a tendency in unofficial Serbo-Croatian to convert /hv/ into /f/. Example such as hvala/fala, hvatati/fatati.


The same thing takes place in some Eastern Ukrainian dialects. My grandma is from Slobozhanshchyna and she pronounces *хвіст* as *фіст* and *хвилина* as *филина*. This is often considered the result of hypercorrection, since in other Eastern Ukrainian dialects exactly the opposite happens: *ф* is pronounced as *хв*.


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