# he don't (Subjunctive)



## Tadeo

Hi everyone!!!

Can you take a look and tell me if if is right?
English subjuntive is really hard for me, so I asked for help and one of our great moderators gave me a great class:

Espero que él no muera:
I hope that he don't die

I know there are more common ways to say this, but I'm interested in this particular structure. Is it ok???


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## roxcyn

Sounds okay to me, however many people won't use it because in English the subjunctive is hardly used.  

I require that he come at once.
I require that he don't come at once.

OR I require him to come at once/not to come at once.
OR I require that he comes at once/doesn't come at once.

All the above are right.


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## Tadeo

roxcyn can you change my sentence to the structure you posted at the end, please???

I hope that he don't die =

I hope that he doesn't die (wrong???)
I hope him not to die. ¿?

One more thing, in american English, wich would be the most common and appropiate way to say this??? Can you provide the example please???
Thank you so much.


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## roxcyn

I think the most common would be: *I hope he doesn't die*.  

Someone could also say:

I hope (that) he don't die

An example would be:

"Oh no!  He cut his arm with a knife and he is bleeding badly.  *I hope (that) he doesn't die!/I hope (that) he don't die!*


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## Tadeo

roxcyn, I'm sorry to keep you on this, but can you tell me how to identifie if I need to use the subjunctive or not????

And what do you think about these two:
I hope that he doesn't die ( wrong???)
I hope him not to die. ¿?

Thank you again.


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## roxcyn

You wouldn't say the second sentence just like you wouldn't in Spanish:

I hope him not to die = Espero que su no muera. 

Yes, you can say I hope (that) he doesn't die.

English used to have forms for each subject just like there is in Spanish, but it changed, so there are very little verb forms for each subject, almost all of the forms are easy to learn.  

Therefore, *the subjunctive hardly ever exists in English*.  If you avoid using it, then it is okay:

both I hope that he doesn't die and I hope that he don't die are correct.


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## Tadeo

Thank you so much for your help.


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## mariente

aprende esto:  con she he it, va doesnt
                    con los demás va do. Eso es una regla y es arbitrario


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## Fuzzyblob

Tadeo said:


> Hi everyone!!!
> 
> Can you take a look and tell me if if is right?
> English subjuntive is really hard for me, so I asked for help and one of our great moderators gave me a great class:
> 
> Espero que él no muera:
> I hope that he don't die
> 
> I know there are more common ways to say this, but I'm interested in this particular structure. Is it ok???



I would highly recommend "doesn't." If you said "don't" here it wouldn't even sound like the subjunctive to most people, it would sound like Southern talk and some people, far from noting how well you use the subjunctive, would think that you're uneducated. However, "don't" is fairly common in certain areas of the country, so if you have burning desire to use it, go ahead.


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## Tadeo

Thanks for the advice fuzzyblob.


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## roxcyn

mariente said:


> aprende esto:  con she he it, va doesnt
> con los demás va do. Eso es una regla y es arbitrario



Yes, but when you use the subjunctive with English you use the other form--but most people don't use it, which I already said .


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## jls0415

most of the time in english, we only use the subjunctive if we're talking about things that are contrary to fact (i'm short, but i wish i were tall) or impossible conditions (if i ruled the world, everyone would love me). the hard thing about the subjunctive in english is that it looks more or less exactly like the past tense; most english-speaking people dont' even know what the subjunctive is at all. the only reason i get it is because i've been studying both spanish and latin for a number of years. so although i suggest that you keep working to understand it, ultimately it doesn't make much of a difference


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## Fede1988

A Green Day song says: "And he don't even know that you exist"....What do you think?


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## Genecks

I hope he does not die. 
I hope he doesn't die.

"I hope he don't die" is incorrect.


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## doramas

En el caso de  esa frase yo diría más bien : I hope he won´t die.
Con el " don´t"  en ningún caso.Por lo menos en lenguaje medianamente culto.


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## Genecks

Fede1988 said:


> A Green Day song says: "And he don't even know that you exist"....What do you think?



I think American music has its limitations when a person is trying to learn English from it.

We have what is called "slang." It's an incorrect way to use the English language, but it is also a fashionable one. I do not like using slang. I do not like it when people use slang. Some people want slang removed from the English language. However, certain subcultures within America have allowed slang to continue. Thus, many people see the usage of slang within language as cool or interesting.

Green Day is not correctly using English.
I also think "that" is an expletive, which is a word not needed.


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## roxcyn

Genecks said:


> I hope he does not die.
> I hope he doesn't die.
> 
> "I hope he don't die" is incorrect.



I agree, but if someone did say that we would be able to understand.  Plus many people use "don't" for the third person anyway.


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## Erasmoose06

Don't is used for "I don't" or "We don't" when speaking in the present indicative. 

_"I don't drive to work."

"We don't drive to work."
_
The only other grammatically correct usage is in command form saying, "Don't (do something)". 

_"Don't read the newspaper while you drive to work."_


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## roxcyn

Erasmoose, lo sé, pero muchos angloparlantes dirá "He don't know nothing" por "He doesn't know anything".


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## Reina140

Genecks said:


> I think American music has its limitations when a person is trying to learn English from it.
> 
> We have what is called "slang." It's an incorrect way to use the English language, but it is also a fashionable one. I do not like using slang. I do not like it when people use slang. Some people want slang removed from the English language. However, certain subcultures within America have allowed slang to continue. Thus, many people see the usage of slang within language as cool or interesting.
> 
> Green Day is not correctly using English.
> I also think "that" is an expletive, which is a word not needed.


 
Also in music, artists will use "don't" instead of "doesn't" and other various forms of slang just for the number of syllables to keep the rhythmic flow of their song.


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## Erasmoose06

roxcyn said:


> Erasmoose, lo sé, pero muchos angloparlantes dirá "He don't know nothing" por "He doesn't know nothing".




You are correct, roxcyn. But that is widely known among native English speakers to be grammatically incorrect. You would certainly not find this among "la gente culta" or educated persons. It is strictly slang, used in that sense. To be honest, both of those statements are grammatically incorrect. The correct way to express that statement is, "He does not know anything," or "He doesn't know anything." The meaning would be understood and acknowledged, but the listener would immediately recognize the grammatical "mis-step", so to speak.

Contrary to Spanish, in English, we do not use double-negatives. In Spanish you would say, "No tengo ningunas tarjetas." In English, the same sentence would be, "I don't have any cards." Technically, if you were to use a double-negative in English, one negative would negate the other resulting in an affirmative. Example being, "No, I don't have no cards," in fact means, "I do have cards."


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## caballoschica

Yes, artists alter the language so it will rhyme more.

But "he don't"???!!!! I don't like that at all!!  I hardly ever here it used here.  Actually, I should say  I don't hear it _here _at college.  And I hardly ever hear it at home or away from college.  There are some "pink flags" that go off when I see bad grammar.  It's not so bad, but it sends up a little flag.  This one sent up a few red flags. Same with double negatives.  It is not heard in academic or educated circles.  If someone hears "He don't know nothin'" what do they think of that person?  I personally, would assume that person wasn't highly educated.  

roxcyn, I agree, we'd understand, but it's just not used that much.  At least where I am...

bueno, no me gusta nada "he don't " o alguna version.  No es inglés bueno.  Es la primera persona singular y plural.  (I y we)


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## Christian

"He don't" is simply incorrect English. Songs often employ the phrase as a sort of common touch, along with "ain't". 

For some reason, formal English can sound stilted in popular lyrics. 

Students of English should bear in mind, however, that "he don't" is the sort of grammatical mistake that three-year-old children make.


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## Tadeo

Tadeo said:


> Hi everyone!!!
> 
> Can you take a look and tell me if if is right?
> English subjuntive is really hard for me, so I asked for help and one of our great moderators gave me a great class:
> 
> Espero que él no muera:
> I hope that he don't die
> 
> I know there are more common ways to say this, but I'm interested in this particular structure. Is it ok???




Hi!!! Well I think this post has veered out of topic a little bit; anyways, although most of you agree that the subjunctive is not used that much in english, is the structure (wich is intended in subjunctive) ok???
According to what I read in the subjuntive third persons don't take the _s_ ending.

Maybe the fact that the subjunctive is no longer used in everyday speech, is what makes it sound so awful for most of you.

Thanks for your interest.


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## Basenjigirl

Genecks said:


> Green Day is not correctly using English.



Green Day is not using English correctly.


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## mageel

better to say "I hope that he does not (doesn't) die."


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## roxcyn

Christian said:


> "He don't" is simply incorrect English. Songs often employ the phrase as a sort of common touch, along with "ain't".
> 
> For some reason, formal English can sound stilted in popular lyrics.
> 
> Students of English should bear in mind, however, that "he don't" is the sort of grammatical mistake that three-year-old children make.



Hm, I have heard so many people say it in formal contexts--"he don't..." or whatnot.  I think we have to accept that this form is becoming used a lot, especially in pop culture.  In my own way I use "he doesn't" but I hear many people uses the "don't".  Some of you think to imply that English is my second language, when in fact it is my first language, and Spanish is my second language.  I would say that "he don't" used in the sentence sounds okay because many people I know use the "he don't" structure, even in formal situations.  These people probably know that the structure is he doesn't, but use "he don't."  However, I said that we usually do not use subjunctive like in Spanish.


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## roxcyn

mageel said:


> better to say "I hope that he does not (doesn't) die."



I agree, estoy de acuerdo.


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## Tadeo

The present subjunctive is most familiar to us in formulaic expressions such as _God help him, be that as it may, come what may,_ and _suffice it to say._ It also occurs in _that_ clauses used to state commands or to express intentions or necessity:   

We insist that he _do_ the job properly

 So according to this my sentence is correct but not so common, many (as all fo you) would prefer the indicative.


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## roxcyn

Tadeo, eso es


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## caballoschica

Is "hope" really a subjunctive verb in English?

I hope that you have a great time!

I hope that you do great on your test!

I hope you rest a lot this winter.  

I hope that he studies hard so he can get a good grade.

We don't say I hope that he study hard.   

I don't think it's followed by the subjunctive. 

And it just sounds horrible!  I hope he don't...Sounds like nails on a chalkboard!

here we go:
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html
It doesn't appear as if hope is something to be followed by the subjunctive.

Tadeo, your sentence is incorrect.  I don't know how it could ever be correct and so many English speakers hate how it sounds.  And how we never find it in literature unless depicting an uneducated character.


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## roxcyn

"We insist that he _do_ the job properly." The example from the website you posted.


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## caballoschica

"insist" is not "hope." Did you see hope on there?


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## Tadeo

caballoschica you are right, the fragment I posted above comes from the same article; and I also checked the verb list here .

Well, anyways the main idea was if the third person in subjunctive had or not to take the _s ending, _wich has already been clarified.(thank you so much for your help since the very beginning roxcyn)

Not being a native I really do not use the subjuntive unless I'm using the  conditionals, so I just wanted to have an idea of it.

 Thanks again to all of you.


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## roxcyn

caballoschica said:


> "insist" is not "hope." Did you see hope on there?



No, I don't.  Thanks for pointing that out.  So you would agree that "I insist that he don't go home" sounds okay?


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## caballoschica

roxcyn said:


> No, I don't.  Thanks for pointing that out.  So you would agree that "I insist that he don't go home" sounds okay?



It sounds a bit weird.  But it may be OK.

I googled both "I insist that he don't" and "I insist that he doesn't"  I got zero responses and three responses, respectively.  Neither are used, apparently.


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## jinti

It is not ok, and Tadeo's original sentence was not in the subjunctive in English.   


 I hope that he doesn't die. (not subjunctive in English!)
 I hope that he don't die. (neither standard English nor a subjunctive -- just lacking subject-verb agreement. The fact that some dialects of English permit lack of subject-verb agreement in 3rd person singular doesn't mean those are subjunctives. For instance, _he don't think so _is permitted in some dialects, but it certainly isn't subjunctive. Maybe this is where all the confusion in this thread came from.)
 I insist that *he not die/go home*. (subjunctive -- but note that there's no _*do*_ verb. If it were a positive sentence, we would use the s-less form of the verb: _I insist that he *go* home_.)


 I hope that this clears things up. (not subjunctive)
 I hope that Tadeo doesn't mind such a long thread. (not subjunctive)
 I hope that he don't mind such a long thread. (not standard English and not subjunctive, anyway)
 I suggest that *he not pay* any of us too much attention. (subjunctive -- and again, note the absence of any _do_ verb)


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## roxcyn

Gracias Jinti


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## Thomas1

jinti said:


> It is not ok, and Tadeo's original sentence was not in the subjunctive in English.
> 
> 
> I hope that he doesn't die. (not subjunctive in English!)
> I hope that he don't die. (neither standard English nor a subjunctive -- just lacking subject-verb agreement. The fact that some dialects of English permit lack of subject-verb agreement in 3rd person singular doesn't mean those are subjunctives. For instance, _he don't think so _is permitted in some dialects, but it certainly isn't subjunctive. Maybe this is where all the confusion in this thread came from.)
> I insist that *he not die/go home*. (subjunctive -- but note that there's no _*do*_ verb. If it were a positive sentence, we would use the s-less form of the verb: _I insist that he *go* home_.)
> 
> 
> I hope that this clears things up. (not subjunctive)
> I hope that Tadeo doesn't mind such a long thread. (not subjunctive)
> I hope that he don't mind such a long thread. (not standard English and not subjunctive, anyway)
> I suggest that *he not pay* any of us too much attention. (subjunctive -- and again, note the absence of any _do_ verb)


After having waded through many a post up to this one I started to lose my faith that had been taught the correct usage of English subjunctive and at last the good answer to the original question.

I think that the verb _to be is _the most illustrative example of the subjunctive mood in English.
I hope that you be lucky.
I hope that he be lucky.
I hope that he not be ill.
The rules stipulate that he be the best of his class.

This, I believe, may sound weird (or even wrong?) to some native English speakers as they don't use subjunctive much (example: this thread) in their everyday speach nowadays.

Regards,
Tom


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## Tadeo

Thank you jinti!!!
Now, a few months ago, after a similar thread el-roy(I hope he doesn't  mind the quote) gave me a few notes about the subjunctive, do you agree with these?:
_
_Posted by el-roy: (I had to change font and color to make it fit, sorry)_
I would prefer that you not come._

This is the present subjunctive; that's why "do" is not used. Many people would still say "do," but technically that's not correct.
The positive version of this sentence would be the following:
_
I would prefer that you come. 

_So i think this is what jinti meant right???


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## Thomas1

Tadeo said:


> Thank you jinti!!!
> Now, a few months ago, after a similar thread el-roy(I hope he doesn't mind the quote) gave me a few notes about the subjunctive, do you agree with these?:
> 
> Posted by el-roy: (I had to change font and color to make it fit, sorry)
> _I would prefer that you not come._
> 
> This is the present subjunctive; that's why "do" is not used. Many people would still say "do," but technically that's not correct.
> The positive version of this sentence would be the following:
> 
> _I would prefer that you come. _
> 
> So i think this is what jinti meant right???


I think el-roy's hints are correct. Jinti seems to be alluding to the same point.


Tom


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## jinti

Tadeo said:


> _I would prefer that you not come._
> 
> This is the present subjunctive; that's why "do" is not used. Many people would still say "do," but technically that's not correct.
> The positive version of this sentence would be the following:
> 
> _I would prefer that you come. _
> 
> So i think this is what jinti meant right???


Exactly.  

And you can see the difference between indicative and subjunctive even better in 3rd person singular: _I would prefer that *he (not) come*_.


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## caballoschica

jinti said:


> It is not ok, and Tadeo's original sentence was not in the subjunctive in English.
> 
> 
> I hope that he doesn't die. (not subjunctive in English!)
> I hope that he don't die. (neither standard English nor a subjunctive -- just lacking subject-verb agreement. The fact that some dialects of English permit lack of subject-verb agreement in 3rd person singular doesn't mean those are subjunctives. For instance, _he don't think so _is permitted in some dialects, but it certainly isn't subjunctive. Maybe this is where all the confusion in this thread came from.)
> I insist that *he not die/go home*. (subjunctive -- but note that there's no _*do*_ verb. If it were a positive sentence, we would use the s-less form of the verb: _I insist that he *go* home_.)
> 
> 
> I hope that this clears things up. (not subjunctive)
> I hope that Tadeo doesn't mind such a long thread. (not subjunctive)
> I hope that he don't mind such a long thread. (not standard English and not subjunctive, anyway)
> I suggest that *he not pay* any of us too much attention. (subjunctive -- and again, note the absence of any _do_ verb)



Thank you jinti, for articulating and explaining what I have been trying, but failing, to say and explain well.


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## SpiceMan

So... "I hope that this clears things up" using subjunctive would be "I hope that this clear things up" ? (I know the missing s sounds awful, but would that be the subjunctive?)


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## Thomas1

SpiceMan said:


> So... "I hope that this clears things up" using subjunctive would be "I hope that this clear things up" ? (I know the missing s sounds awful, but would that be the subjunctive?)


Yes, this is the subjnctive mood.


Tom


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## jinti

SpiceMan said:


> So... "I hope that this clears things up" using subjunctive would be "I hope that this clear things up" ? (I know the missing s sounds awful, but would that be the subjunctive?)


Nope. _I hope_ doesn't require the subjunctive. It sounds awful because it's just plain lack of subject-verb agreement, and there's no subjunctive lurking anywhere about it.  It's just plain old indicative in English.  

Try another verb, though: _insist, demand, suggest, ...._ These do take the subjunctive:

_I insist/demand/suggest that *he clear* things up immediately._
_I insist/demand/suggest that *English relinquish* the subjunctive forever or *pay* the consquences. _


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## elroy

Thomas1 said:


> Yes, this is the subjnctive mood.


 No, it's not! There is no "s" in the third person subjunctive!

I'm sorry, but I completely understand why some non-natives were confused by this thread. I would ask that we all try (subjunctive ) to think twice before posting, because some of the statements that have been made in this thread are highly imprecise, if not downright incorrect.

A few important points need to be made:

1. *The subjunctive is alive and well in English.* The peculiar thing is that most subjunctive forms are identical to the indicative forms, so 99% of the time people use the subjunctive without realizing it. Unfortunately, this leads some to subconsciously assume that there is no such thing as the subjunctive in English, therefore replacing those subjunctive forms that do differ from their corresponding indicative forms, with indicative forms. Careful speakers and writers, however, continue to use the subjunctive correctly. It is still required in standard English where it may have fallen into disuse in spoken English.

2. *"he don't" is incorrect* in standard English. Yes, it is colloquial and regional, but that's neither here nor there. I think on these forums when we refer to something that is dialectal or slang we should clearly indicate that. Otherwise, non-natives are bound to be confused. 

The correct present indicative form of the above is "he doesn't."
The correct present subjunctive form of the above is "he not."

*The helping verb "do" is not used in the subjunctive.* 

3. Not all verbs that require the subjunctive in Spanish require the subjunctive in English. "Esperar" requires the subjunctive, but "hope" does not.

Therefore,

"I hope he not come." is incorrect because it is a wrongly used subjunctive.
"I hope he don't come." is incorrect because it is simply an incorrect form.
"I hope he doesn't come." is correct because it's a correctly used indicative.

4. The only times the subjunctive clearly differs from the indicative are the following:

In the present tense:
-in the third person singular, with positive verbs: _he comes_ vs. _he come._ 
-*in all persons and numbers, with negative verbs*: _I do not come _vs. _I not come_; _you do not come_ vs. _you not come_; etc. 
-*always* with the verb "to be": _I am_ vs. _I be_; _you are_ vs. _you be_; etc. 

In the past tense:
-only in the first and third person singular of the verb "to be": _I/he/she/it was_ vs. _I/he/she/it were_. 

These are the *only* times you have to worry about using a subjunctive. Otherwise, it doesn't matter because the forms are identical.

I repeat - the fact that the instances are few in which the subjunctive differs from the indicative has led many to simply use the indicative and therefore falsely claim that the subjunctive does not exist in English.

You will hear sentences like

_It is important that he comes._
_It is important that he doesn't come._
_It is important that you are here._
_I wish he was here._

but these are still incorrect in standard English. Notice that the third sentence is especially problematic because it actually means something other than what it purports to say.

Another classic example is the verb "suggest":

_She is suggesting that he sends a letter to his mother every day._
_She is suggesting that he send a letter to his mother every day._ 

These two sentences clearly mean very different things, and only careful use of the subjunctive and the indicative makes the meaning unambiguous.


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## jinti

Hear, hear!!!


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## DCPaco

This is not a case of the subjunctive...this is a case of bad English.

I hope he do not die. = I hope he don't die.

don't = do not

The correct form is: I hope he doesn't die. or I hope he does not die.

This is very typical of Afro-English.

Yes she do. (When it should be:  Yes she does.)


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## caballoschica

*Clapping for elroy's post*

just to reinforce things:  
I *hope *is *not subjunctive

Do *is *not used in the subjunctive*


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## Thomas1

SpiceMan said:


> So... "I hope that this clears things up" using subjunctive would be "I hope that this clear things up" ? (I know the missing s sounds awful, but would that be the subjunctive?)


 


elroy said:


> No, it's not! There is no "s" in the third person subjunctive!
> 
> I'm sorry, but I completely understand why some non-natives were confused by this thread. I would ask that we all try (subjunctive ) to think twice before posting, because some of the statements that have been made in this thread are highly imprecise, if not downright incorrect.


_"I hope that this clear things up"_ Well, it is subjunctive (there's no _s_) but used with a verb that doesn't allow it. I confused English _hope_ with _hope_ in the languages where the use of subjunctive is possible. Anyway, the distinctions I made in previous posts are still valid (simply replace _hope_ by another verb that yields subjunctive).



elroy said:


> A few important points need to be made:
> 
> [...]*The helping verb "do" is not used in the subjunctive.*


It's partially true or you simply didn't mention this since you use the past form of the auxiliary _do; _i.e. *did is used in the past subjunctive*. 
_If he didn't belong to the union he couldn't get a job._
_I wish Mary didn't make so much noise._


Tom


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## Janis Joplin

Reina140 said:


> Also in music, artists will use "don't" instead of "doesn't" and other various forms of slang just for the number of syllables to keep the rhythmic flow of their song.


 
I heard "she don't care" in a Beatles song and always have wondered why.


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## Fede1988

In another Green Day song says "land of make believe and it don't believe in me".......it is wrong, isn't it?


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## DCPaco

Fede1988 said:


> In another Green Day song says "land of make believe and it don't believe in me".......it is wrong, isn't it?


 
It is incorrect English; however, it is possibly used for meter and effect (like the example of the Beatles...in poetry as in lyrics, meter needs to be met so archaisms and correct grammar fall in the hands of creative agency). Green Day has become very political and I guess they are speaking like those who have been left behind in American culture.


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## elroy

Thomas1 said:


> It's partially true or you simply didn't mention this since you use the past form of the auxiliary _do; _i.e. *did is used in the past subjunctive*.
> _If he didn't belong to the union he couldn't get a job._
> _I wish Mary didn't make so much noise._


 Yes, I was referring specifically to the form "do" (and "does" I guess). 


Fede1988 said:


> In another Green Day song says "land of make believe and it don't believe in me".......it is wrong, isn't it?


 In standard English, yes.


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## Panpan

caballoschica said:


> *Clapping for elroy's post*
> 
> *Do *is *not used in the subjunctive*


 
Thanks Elroy for that helpful and informative post on 14.12.06

In my opinion there is a correct use of the verb 'to do' in the present subjunctive, e.g.; 'It is necessary that he do it', 

and also in the future subjunctive, e.g.; 'England expects that every man shall do his duty'. 

I would negate that first sentance by saying 'It is important that he does not do it', so if that is correct, there is no difference between the present indicative and the present subjunctive in negative statements.

Panpan


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## jazyk

Nope, It is important that he not do it (I know this is right, but I would never say it for the life of me! )


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## Cachetona

what a subjunctive is? i don´t understand why "do" goes with he?


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## jazyk

The subjunctive is the base form of the verb without to. The base form is what you find as headword in any dictionary (go, do, have, be, etc.).


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## Thomas1

Panpan said:


> Thanks Elroy for that helpful and informative post on 14.12.06
> 
> In my opinion there is a correct use of the verb 'to do' in the present subjunctive, e.g.; 'It is necessary that he do it',
> 
> and also in the future subjunctive, e.g.; 'England expects that every man shall do his duty'.
> 
> I would negate that first sentance by saying 'It is important that he does not do it', so if that is correct, there is no difference between the present indicative and the present subjunctive in negative statements.
> 
> Panpan


It is correct to use the verb _to do, _nothing prevents one from doing so. However, what Elroy was refering to was _do_ as an auxiliary verb and that's a different kettle of fish because *do as an auxiliary verb can't be used in the present subjunctive*. 

Also, 'It is important that he does not do it' is correct but strictly speaking means something different:
_It is imporatant that he does not do it _means that it is important that he is not currently doing it. They construction you used is an instance of the indicative not the subjunctive.
Whereas the usage of subjunctive, i.e. _It is important that he not do it_ relates to a hypothetical future.

Nevertheless, many people use in everyday language the indicative in both cases. I suppose that it must have become so common that some people don't know how to use the subjunctive.

Thomas


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## geostan

roxcyn said:


> I think the most common would be: *I hope he doesn't die*.
> 
> Someone could also say:
> 
> I hope (that) he don't die
> 
> An example would be:
> 
> "Oh no!  He cut his arm with a knife and he is bleeding badly.  *I hope (that) he doesn't die!/I hope (that) he don't die!*



You can't say I hope he don't die, unless you're illiterate.

You would say: I hope he doesn't die.


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## Panpan

Thomas1 said:


> It is correct to use the verb _to do, _nothing prevents one from doing so. However, what Elroy was refering to was _do_ as an auxiliary verb and that's a different kettle of fish because *do as an auxiliary verb can't be used in the present subjunctive*.
> 
> Also, 'It is important that he does not do it' is correct but strictly speaking means something different:
> _It is imporatant that he does not do it _means that it is important that he is not currently doing it. They construction you used is an instance of the indicative not the subjunctive.
> Whereas the usage of subjunctive, i.e. _It is important that he not do it_ relates to a hypothetical future.
> 
> Nevertheless, many people use in everyday language the indicative in both cases. I suppose that it must have become so common that some people don't know how to use the subjunctive.
> 
> Thomas


 
Thank you for correcting me on the correct construction of the negative present subjunctive, however in my opinion, it is used extremely rarely, if ever, in spoken English.  I think you would struggle to find examples in the written language.  In my view, the negative present subjunctive construction you describe, has been replaced in all modern practical usage by the indicative.

Panpan


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## Thomas1

Panpan said:


> Thank you for correcting me on the correct construction of the negative present subjunctive, however in my opinion, it is used extremely rarely, if ever, in spoken English. I think you would struggle to find examples in the written language. In my view, the negative present subjunctive construction you describe, has been replaced in all modern practical usage by the indicative.
> 
> Panpan


Well, it's not that hard to find its examples in the written register.
Here are a few:


> He was somewhere in his seventies, and his doctor *suggested that he not do *it anymore, the crawfish-eating contest.
> _Source_





> Pensioners from across the country today descended on parliament and *demanded that they not be left* "to rot in poverty".
> _Source_





> Right from the beginning, every day there have been people calling and coming to our house, and we have all been very upset," said the student's father, who was interviewed by telephone but *insisted that he not be identified* by name, to avoid further harassment.
> _Source_


I think (note that English is not my mother tongue and I base my opinion on the literature I read because I can't remember if I heard it used in speech, although I can imagine a judge in a court of law using this type of construction) you are onto something saying that the negative present subjunctive is used rather sparingly, you don't see it often. However, I like seeing when somebody uses/ed it well. 


Thomas


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## roxcyn

geostan said:


> You can't say I hope he don't die, unless you're illiterate.
> 
> You would say: I hope he doesn't die.



Be sure to read this post: http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=1940305&postcount=31

Remember to read the whole thread--as I said I learnt something in English .  I am a native speaker so I think this forum teaches us a lot


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## Ian Tenor

Subjunctive, and -

_I hope that he don't die_


 Many verb constructions which take the _Present Subjunctive _in French and, I imagine, in Spanish _do _take this same Subjunctive in Englis- though you wouldn't know this from reading such papers as _The Guardian_, let alone _The Sun _- the sole troubling, and fine-sounding feature being the missing _"s" _in the 3rd person singular. The sole form of the Present Subjunctive is identical to the Infinitive ::

 I ask that it _*be *_done - and not "I ask that it _*is *_done", pace _The Guardian et al_.

 Hence -

 I demand that he _*die*_
 I insist that he _*die*_
 I ask (only) that he _*die*_
 [ I require that he _*die*_ ]

 ... but _"hope" _seems _not _to be one of these, curiously enough, since it certainly is in French ::

 I hope (that) he _*dies*_

 Weird, isn't it ?


 The negative "_I hope (that) he *don't *__die_ is _not right_, the correct form being - as others have pointed out -  _I hope (that) he *doesn't *__die_.


 Incidentally, the Past Subjunctive has also only one form, identical to the Preterit plural form ::

 If I _were _to come, / _Were _I to come, ...


 That's about it, I hope !


 Best -

 Ian


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## Christian

'Students: Just remember, "He don't" is spectacularly incorrect English. 

If you know it is incorrect and can use it for effect (my baby don't love me no more!), welcome to fluency. Ain't English great?

Otherwise, look out.


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