# 無所聞



## Flaminius

Hello Chinese Forum,

In a paragraph of 孔叢子 (儒服), Zigao refutes a false claim that ancient sages could drink hefty swigs.  The listener drops the claim and concludes the conversation by:
平原君欣然曰：「吾不戲子，無所聞、此雅言也。」

I wonder what 所 is doing here.  The sentence is also grammatical without it  無聞.  Is there a finer nuance that I am missing?


Thanks.


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## SimonTsai

很久沒讀古文了，不確定解得正不正確：

平原君勸酒，對子高說：「來啦！來啦！是聖賢就該來一杯！傳說堯舜能喝，孔子能喝，子路遜了點兒也能喝十杯，你沒道理推卻。」子高回：「聖人不聖人，用飲食來判斷，我還沒聽過。我聽過的都是以道德以品行。」平原君說：「這麼說，我剛那話哪來的？」子高回：「八成是愛喝酒的人說的。酒鬼勸酒的玩笑話，我們不可以當真。」平原君笑了：「好啦！其實沒那句話。我現在不是開玩笑，是認真的。」

扶起, 良久方醒, 問之一無所知. <== 所知 = 發生了甚麼事
吾不戲子, 無所聞, 此雅言也. <== 所聞 = 子高一開始聽到 (平原君瞎掰) 的那句話


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## retrogradedwithwind

题主Flaminius给的版本有些误导。初读我也没读懂，然后找了个没断句的版本读了一下，感觉断句有误。

正确断句应该是：
吾不戏子，无所闻此雅言也。

雅言，指子高前面说的那句话，可以翻译为“高论”。所，可以类比于现代汉语中的“地方”。无所闻：没地方听。

整句翻译一下：我不调戏你一下，没地方听到你这番高论。


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## Oswinw011

It seems that the speaker fronted the 无所闻 to stress that he had never heard of such opinions. So the original order would be: 此雅言无所闻也。所 was used as 被，indicating the passive voice.


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## henter

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 题主Flaminius给的版本有些误导。初读我也没读懂，然后找了个没断句的版本读了一下，感觉断句有误。
> 
> 正确断句应该是：
> 吾不戏子，无所闻此雅言也。
> 
> 雅言，指子高前面说的那句话，可以翻译为“高论”。所，可以类比于现代汉语中的“地方”。无所闻：没地方听。
> 
> 整句翻译一下：我不调戏你一下，没地方听到你这番高论。


我不懂古文. 我刚刚搜了一下. 知乎上有人提到过这段话. 原文是" ”平原君欣然曰：“吾不戏子，无所闻此雅言也 —《孔丛子—儒服》. 还有一个网站也提到了. 原文是"”平原君欣然曰：“吾不戲子，無所聞此雅言也."

  I have to admit that it's beyond my ken.  I mean it sounds heavy to me. 如果按我的理解, 無所聞是没听说过的意思. Yet这是古文.  我就不敢确定.


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## retrogradedwithwind

刚搜了一下，《左传》中“无所”很多都可以翻译为“没地”，所字有“地方”的意思。如“无所用之”→没地用，“无所逃隐”→没地逃。

然后所字意思虚化一下，就变成“礼无所逆”“民无所依”这类了。


henter said:


> 我不懂古文. 我刚刚搜了一下. 知乎上有人提到过这段话. 原文是" ”平原君欣然曰：“吾不戏子，无所闻此雅言也 —《孔丛子—儒服》. 还有一个网站也提到了. 原文是"”平原君欣然曰：“吾不戲子，無所聞此雅言也."



主要是我不知道#1 里链接，为什么在闻此之间加个顿号。


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## Ghabi

Flaminius said:


> I wonder what 所 is doing here. The sentence is also grammatical without it 無聞. Is there a finer nuance that I am missing?


It's necessary here (as explained in *retrogradedwithwind*'s post above). One might also have written 無以聞 ("no means"). But of course a translation may not reflect it: "If I had not played a joke on you, I would not have heard such an eloquent rebuke!"


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## Flaminius

Wow, so many informative answers, thank you all.

Okay, I should not believe this 断句 by Chinese Text Project.  Having two kinds of comma there was fishy enough (，and 、).

Examples from 春秋左傳 are interesting, pace *retrogradedwithwind*.

Does this mean that 所 can be the 通仮字 for 以 in the Ancient Chinese? And perhaps a precursor to the modern 地?


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## Ghabi

Flaminius said:


> Does this mean that 所 can be the 通仮字 for 以 in the Ancient Chinese?


Not 通假, just my way of trying to make it easier to understand (not very successful, obviously).


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## retrogradedwithwind

按汉典网《说文》所字条“所”字的解释 | 汉典:
所：伐木聲也。伐木聲、乃此字本義。用爲處所者、叚借爲処字也。若王所、行在所之類是也。用爲分别之䛐者、又从処所之義引申之。若予所否者、所不與舅氏同心者之類是也。皆於本義無涉。是眞叚借矣。从斤。戶聲。疏與切。五部。詩曰。伐木所所。小雅伐木文。首章伐木丁丁傳曰。丁丁、伐木聲。次章伐木許許傳曰。許許、柿皃。此許許作所所者、聲相似。不用柿皃之說、用伐木聲之說者、葢許以毛爲君亦參用三家也。今按丁丁者、斧斤聲。所所、則鋸聲也。


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## SimonTsai

土撥鼠 (我) 又出來丟人現眼了。

兩三天前花了點時間，上網找，看到了不一樣的解釋：「您說的話我從沒聽過， (不過) 您說 [的] 真是雅言。」這解釋根據的原文，句讀和 @Flaminius 引的一樣。我問了我高中二三年級的國文老師 (不是提出這解釋的孫老師) ，但他還沒回。

今天又找了一下。我看不懂日文，但 @Flaminius 懂：「私が先生に酒を強要しなかったら，この善き言葉を聞く事もなかったでしょうな。」這解釋根據的原文，句讀和 @retrogradedwithwind 的版本一樣。但在另一個日文的網站，「私も先生に冗談を言いますまい。お聞きでしょうが、これはただの昔の言い伝えです。」這解釋根據的，句讀和 @Flaminius 引的一樣。

只能麻煩 @Flaminius 或其他看得懂日文的翻譯了。翻成英文也行。過幾天如果我問的老師還沒回覆，也許我會改問我高中一年級的國文老師。 (她喜歡日劇，會看日本動漫，原文的，日文應該不成問題。她人非常好。)


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## Flaminius

On one sultry summer evening, I was surprised to find a 撤地鼠 in disguise of a 土撥鼠.  Perhaps it's the heat that created an illusion in my brain, but the two Japanese sites are worthy of mention that the rodent seemed to touch upon.

A blog entry by TS生 translates 無所聞 as part of a counterfactual conditional construction:  If I had not forced you to drink, I would not have heard [聞く事もなかったでしょうな] your good words.

I don't think this translation provides a very good clue for the function of 所 in this passage.  It's simply a natural way of putting things in Japanese.  Naturalness in the target language is what a good translation should strive for.

Another blog by 九去堂 follows a different punctuation tradition of the original text.  There, 無所聞 is translated into お聞きでしょうが (you must have heard this; 是言先生也听说过的).  Apparently, 無 is treated as a device of rhetorical question or emphasis.  The function of 所 is understood as that of denoting one's experience.  Unfortunately, this is not a sense I could locate in my dictionary.

This brings me to more relevant senses I found in 漢字海 (2007: 東京 三省堂).  According to this dictionary, 所 can 1. mean a (proper) means as in 不以其所 [not employ the right means] (禮記 哀公問), or 2. denote an ability, like this English _can_, as in 非信無所與計事者 (史記 淮陰侯列傳).  I am inclined to think that 無 in 無所聞 is closer to the second sense, but the two are not so different from each other to begin with.


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## retrogradedwithwind

瞎猜一个。所字的词义演变。
第一条路径:
处所→合适的处所①→道理手段②

①例如
「死得其所」。
《易经·系辞下》：「交易而退，各得其所。」
《文选·诸葛亮·出师表》：「必能使行阵和睦，优劣得所也。」

②例如
不以其所

第二条路径：
处所→词义虚化①

①例如
民无所依
无所与计事者


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