# Ojalá los libros se encuentran/encuentren



## LC_vam

Hello
Hoy do we conjugate a verb when is subjuntivo and pasivo?like for example:I wish we can find the books in the library.
Ojalá los libros(se encuentran)(encuentren)en la biblioteca.

Thank you

_Moderator's note
One question per thread (rule 2)
Thanks.
Bevj_


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## Manolo_del_bombo

Hola,
Se encuentren es la correcta en este caso. Si quieres ayuda con otros ejemplos ya sabes..
Saludos


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## TheCrociato91

Hola.



LC_vam said:


> Ojalá los libros(se encuentran)(encuentren)en la biblioteca.



Que yo sepa, _ojalá_ va siempre (*) seguido de los tiempos del subjuntivo, con lo cual no te puedes equivocar cuanto menos de modo verbal.

(*) Habrá excepciones a lo mejor, pero siempre lo he visto empleado con subjuntivo.


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## LC_vam

Manolo_del_bombo said:


> Hola,
> Se encuentren es la correcta en este caso. Si quieres ayuda con otros ejemplos ya sabes..
> Saludos


so we use subjuntivo and pasivo the same time?


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## LC_vam

TheCrociato91 said:


> Hola.
> 
> 
> 
> Que yo sepa, _ojalá_ va siempre (*) seguido de los tiempos del subjuntivo, con lo cual no te puedes equivocar cuanto menos de modo verbal.
> 
> (*) Habrá excepciones a lo mejor, pero siempre lo he visto empleado con subjuntivo.


thank you. Do you mean it's se encuentren?we add an s and also conjugate it according to passive ? Im not sure if I understand you totally.llevo un mes estudiando español.


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## Artifacs

LC_vam said:


> so we use subjuntivo and pasivo the same time?


Active:
It's present tense: encuentren (Present Subjunctive)
Passive:
Ojalá los libros *sean* encontrados en la biblioteca.
Ser = (Present Subjunctive)

ETA: Of course, we never use passive if there's a way to say it in activa in a conversation.


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## TheCrociato91

LC_vam said:


> thank you. Do you mean it's se encuentren?we add an s and also conjugate it according to passive ? Im not sure if I understand you totally.llevo un mes estudiando español.



Sorry, I should've answered in English. @Manolo_del_bombo , who's a native speaker of Spanish, already gave you the correct answer in #2. The point of my post #3 was to try and give the grammar behind _ojalá_, which is always followed by a subjunctive.

Also, I don't think the verb "encontrarse" as in your sentence is a passive voice. But I'm no expert in grammar terminology.


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## LC_vam

Artifacs said:


> Active:
> It's present tense: encuentren (Present Subjunctive)
> Passive:
> Ojalá los libros *sean* encontrados en la biblioteca.
> Ser = (Present Subjunctive)
> 
> ETA: Of course, we never use passive if there's a way to say it in activa in a conversation.


So in your opinion it should be encuentren here?(present Subjunctive)
But Manolo said it was Se encuentren. For me it's subjunctive(encuentren) and passive(the se). I'm a little bit confused


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## LC_vam

TheCrociato91 said:


> Sorry, I should've answered in English. @Manolo_del_bombo , who's a native speaker of Spanish, already gave you the correct answer in #2. The point of my post #3 was to try and give the grammar behind _ojalá_, which is always followed by a subjunctive.
> 
> Also, I don't think the verb "encontrarse" as in your sentence is a passive voice. But I'm no expert in grammar terminology.


you mean here encontrarse is prnl not passive?


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## Artifacs

LC_vam said:


> So in your opinion it should be encuentren here?(present Subjunctive)
> But Manolo said it was Se encuentren. For me it's subjunctive(encuentren) and passive(the se). I'm a little bit confused


Don't worry, That's what we are here for. .
In Spanish there's some verbs that accept a *pronominal form* adding the word *"se"*. This has nothing to do with active or passive sentences. You should open a new thread if you want to understand the pronominal form of a verb.
Manolo was just using a pronominal form of the verb in Active sentence, if you forget about the "se" you have another Active sentence in Present subjunctive:
*Ojalá que (ellos) encuentren los libros* 
The implicit subject of the sentence is the personal pronoum "ellos". But if we use the pronominal form as Manolo did, the sentence loses the subject and becomes an impersonal sentence. As you see, this has nothing to do with active or passive.
The active voice is the usual voice in Spanish. That's your first answer.

I just put the Passive voice using Subjunctive as en example of how it would look like. It would have the same tense (Present Subjunctive) in the auxiliary verb (In this case verb SER). 
Don't hessitate to ask if you feel dizzy.


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## LC_vam

Artifacs said:


> Don't worry, That's what we are here for. .
> In Spanish there's some verbs that accept a *pronominal form* adding the word *"se"*. This has nothing to do with active or passive sentences. You should open a new thread if you want to understand the pronominal form of a verb.
> Manolo was just using a pronominal form of the verb in Active sentence, if you forget about the "se" you have another Active sentence in Present subjunctive:
> *Ojalá que (ellos) encuentren los libros*
> The implicit subject of the sentence is the personal pronoum "ellos". But if we use the pronominal form as Manolo did, the sentence loses the subject and becomes an impersonal sentence. As you see, this has nothing to do with active or passive.
> The active voice is the usual voice in Spanish. That's your first answer.
> 
> I just put the Passive voice using Subjunctive as en example of how it would look like. It would have the same tense (Present Subjunctive) in the auxiliary verb (In this case verb SER).
> Don't hessitate to ask if you feel dizzy.





Artifacs said:


> The implicit subject of the sentence is the personal pronoum "ellos". But if we use the pronominal form as Manolo did, the sentence loses the subject and becomes an impersonal sentence.


Is that means we can use subjunctive in an impersonal sentence?


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## Artifacs

LC_vam said:


> Is that means we can use subjunctive in an impersonal sentence?


Sure, Why not?. Can you in Chinese?
For example:
*Ojalá llueva hoy.* = If only it rained today.
There is no subject because the verb llover is impersonal. All verbs in Spanish have subjunctive tense.


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## TheCrociato91

Artifacs said:


> *Ojalá llueva hoy.* = If only it rained today.



I beg to disagree there. I know this is not really on topic, but to me:

If only it rained today = Ojalá _lloviera/-ese _hoy. (it's very unlikely that it will rain today)
Hopefully it rains today = Ojalá _llueva_ hoy. (I hope it will rain and I think there's a chance it will)

Feel free to correct me, though, since I'm no native speaker .


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## Artifacs

TheCrociato91 said:


> If only it rained today = Ojalá _lloviera/-ese _hoy. (it's very unlikely that it will rain today)
> Hopefully it rains today = Ojalá _llueva_ hoy.  (I hope it will rain and I think there's a chance it will)


  But in:
 Ojalá lloviera (lloviese) hoy.
There's still a remote hope despite the person who speaks also knows/thinks it's not going to happen. Maybe you knew this already, ignore it accordingly.


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## Marsianitoh

"¡Ojalá los libros se encuentren en la biblioteca!" Puede tener dos significados:
1) "Ojalá los libros se encuentren/se hallen/ estén en la biblioteca" , ahí " se encuentren" es un verbo pronominal en subjuntivo. Posible situación: no sabes dónde están los libros, los has buscado por todas partes y solo te falta mirar en la biblioteca, de ahí que desees que estén en la biblioteca. "I hope the books are in the library".
2) " Ojalá los libros se encuentren/ sean encontrados en la biblioteca" ahí " se encuentren" es una construcción pasiva refleja en subjuntivo. Posible situacion:  en la biblioteca se han extraviado unos libros y deseamos que sean encontrados, que alguien  los encuentre. " I hope the (lost) books are (finally) found in the library".

" Se encuentren" no puede ser un verbo impersonal puesto que en esos casos la forma se precede siempre a un verbo en tercera persona del singular.


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## anahiseri

LC_vam, I guess you are a little confused at this part of Spanish grammar, so I'll try to give you some easy explanations. 
Ellos encuentran los libros =Encuentran los libros. = *They find *the books (subject is not obligatory)
Ojalá (ellos) *encuentren* los libros. *subjunctive. 
*
Los libros son encontrados. - proper passive, seldom used.
Los libros se encuentran -  same meaning as passive with *se *(don't worry about how they call this). Common in   written and spoken Spanish.

Ojalá los libros *sean encontrados*. *subjunctive  - *proper passive, seldom used.
Ojalá los libros* se encuentren.  **subjunctive** -  passive meaning, very common.*


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## Peterdg

TheCrociato91 said:


> Also, I don't think the verb "encontrarse" as in your sentence is a passive voice. But I'm no expert in grammar terminology.


Well, at first I didn't think so either, but actually it could be a passive voice with "se". The sentence is ambiguous.

It can both mean:

1) I hope the books are (located) in the library (which is an active meaning, using the pronominal form of the verb "encontrarse")
2) I hope the books are found in the library (which is a passive meaning, using the non-pronominal form of the verb "encontrar").


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## LC_vam

Peterdg said:


> Well, at first I didn't think so either, but actually it could be a passive voice with "se". The sentence is ambiguous.
> 
> It can both mean:
> 
> 1) I hope the books are (located) in the library (which is an active meaning, using the pronominal form of the verb "encontrarse")
> 2) I hope the books are found in the library (which is a passive meaning, using the non-pronominal form of the verb "encontrar").


yes.that's what I mean.the passive voice with se.plus subjunctive encuentren->se encuentren. I don't know if it's ok to say it like that.


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## Peterdg

LC_vam said:


> I don't know if it's ok to say it like that.


Yes, of course it is.


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## LC_vam

anahiseri said:


> LC_vam, I guess you are a little confused at this part of Spanish grammar, so I'll try to give you some easy explanations.
> Ellos encuentran los libros =Encuentran los libros. = *They find *the books (subject is not obligatory)
> Ojalá (ellos) *encuentren* los libros. *subjunctive.
> *
> Los libros son encontrados. - proper passive, seldom used.
> Los libros se encuentran -  same meaning as passive with *se *(don't worry about how they call this). Common in   written and spoken Spanish.
> 
> Ojalá los libros *sean encontrados*. *subjunctive  - *proper passive, seldom used.
> Ojalá los libros* se encuentren.  **subjunctive** -  passive meaning, very common.*


It's in fact a translation from a chinese phrase which means I wish the books can be found in the library. so it's passive(can be found) (se+3rd person singular or pl)(se encuentran) and I wish(subjunctive)(encuentren).I don't know how to combine the se encuentran with encuentren. But as you said se encuentren,subjunctive and passive meaning is common, I think I understand now. Thank you


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## LC_vam

Peterdg said:


> Yes, of course it is.


Thank you


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## LC_vam

Marsianitoh said:


> "¡Ojalá los libros se encuentren en la biblioteca!" Puede tener dos significados:
> 1) "Ojalá los libros se encuentren/se hallen/ estén en la biblioteca" , ahí " se encuentren" es un verbo pronominal en subjuntivo. Posible situación: no sabes dónde están los libros, los has buscado por todas partes y solo te falta mirar en la biblioteca, de ahí que desees que estén en la biblioteca. "I hope the books are in the library".
> 2) " Ojalá los libros se encuentren/ sean encontrados en la biblioteca" ahí " se encuentren" es una construcción pasiva refleja en subjuntivo. Posible situacion:  en la biblioteca se han extraviado unos libros y deseamos que sean encontrados, que alguien  los encuentre. " I hope the (lost) books are (finally) found in the library".
> 
> " Se encuentren" no puede ser un verbo impersonal puesto que en esos casos la forma se precede siempre a un verbo en tercera persona del singular.


I think I finally understand thank you^^


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## LC_vam

Artifacs said:


> Sure, Why not?. Can you in Chinese?
> For example:
> *Ojalá llueva hoy.* = If only it rained today.
> There is no subject because the verb llover is impersonal. All verbs in Spanish have subjunctive tense.


In chinese we don't conjugate the verb in subjunctive. So for example, maybe we can add the meeting in the agenda. It's 
Tal vez agreguen la entrevista en el programa? I'm not sure how to combine the se+3dr person singular or 3dr person pl with subjunctive. We just use the se+3dr person singular or 3dr person pl,and conjugate the verb according to subjuntive right?


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## Artifacs

LC_vam said:


> In chinese we don't conjugate the verb in subjunctive. So for example, maybe we can add the meeting in the agenda. It's
> Tal vez agreguen la entrevista en el programa? I'm not sure how to combine the se+3dr person singular or 3dr person pl with subjunctive. We just use the se+3dr person singular or 3dr person pl,and conjugate the verb according to subjuntive right?


You have to study the use of the pronominal forms of Spanish verbs to truelly understand the use of *se*. 
In this particular case:
*Tal vez agreguen la entrevista en el programa.*
You must use the "se" with the verb in 3pr SINGULAR because your adding just ONE entrevista:
*Tal vez SE agregue la entrevista en el programa.*

And the verb with 3pr PLURAL if you're adding MORE than one entrevista:
*Tal vez SE agreguen las entrevistas en el programa.*

You must do that no matter if you're dealing with an Indicative or Subjunctive sentences. And has nothing to do with passive voice.

And remember that you DO NOT NEED to use "se" at ALL unless you want to ERASE the SUBJECT to make an impersonal sentence.


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## LC_vam

Artifacs said:


> You have to study the use of the pronominal forms of Spanish verbs to truelly understand the use of *se*.
> In this particular case:
> *Tal vez agreguen la entrevista en el programa.*
> You must use the "se" with the verb in 3pr SINGULAR because your adding just ONE entrevista:
> *Tal vez SE agregue la entrevista en el programa.*
> 
> And the verb with 3pr PLURAL if you're adding MORE than one entrevista:
> *Tal vez SE agreguen las entrevistas en el programa.*
> 
> You must do that no matter if you're dealing with an Indicative or Subjunctive sentences. And has nothing to do with passive voice.
> 
> And remember that you DO NOT NEED to use "se" at ALL unless you want to ERASE the SUBJECT to make an impersonal sentence.


so in this phrase*Tal vez SE agregue la entrevista en el programa. *Se agregue is prnl and not passive?


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## Artifacs

LC_vam said:


> so in this phrase*Tal vez SE agregue la entrevista en el programa. *Se agregue is prnl and not passive?


Is NOT passive voice. The Equivalent passive voice needs an AUXILIARY verb and the PARTICIPLE of the verb  that you use in active voice.
THIS Is Passive Voice:

*Tal vez la entrevista SEA *(auxiliary verb)*  ENTREGADA  *(participio del verbo en voz activa) * en el programa*


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## LC_vam

Artifacs said:


> Is NOT passive voice. The Equivalent passive voice needs an AUXILIARY verb and the PARTICIPLE of the verb  that you use in active voice.
> THIS Is Passive Voice:
> 
> *Tal vez la entrevista SEA *(auxiliary verb)*  ENTREGADA  *(participio del verbo en voz activa) * en el programa*


I think I finally understand. It's not passive or impersonal, but prnl.and we can't make this phrase impersonal.


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## anahiseri

LC_vam, I have been studying Chinese for a bit more than a year now and it's certainly difficult, but I think trying to understand what is being said in this thread must be worse.
I don't think you can assimilate all the concepts that have come up in such a short time. 
I insist: don't pay attention to the Spanish grammar terminology, that doesn't help at all.
And whatever people say, the sentences with "se" are impersonal:  you don't know who (which person) is doing something.
Los niños venden pan.
Se vende pan. *impersonal.*
La mujer vende flores.
Se venden flores. *impersonal.*
Notice the form of the verb, it is singular or plural depending on the word which is now the subject.
The passive would be:  El pan es vendido, las flores son vendidas, but I recommend you forget about that, it is rarely used. 
Now, using the indicative or the subjunctive has got nothing to do with the rest. Any verb can be in the subjunctive. Here, for example:
No creo que se venda pan.  No creo que se vendan flores.


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## anahiseri

Marsianitoh said:


> " Se encuentren" no puede ser un verbo impersonal puesto que en esos casos la forma se precede siempre a un verbo en tercera persona del singular.



Por favor, Marsianitoh, ¿me puedes explicar que significa eso?


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## Peterdg

anahiseri said:


> I insist: don't pay attention to the Spanish grammar terminology, that doesn't help at all.


I beg to disagree. I know, "se" in Spanish is a complex issue because it has so many different functions. But, there are quite some arguments to explain it correctly.
1) When you give a simplified explanation, the learner will very soon encounter something that does not correspond with the simplified explanation; consequence: confusion and frustration.
2) When you use incorrect terminology, it will prevent the learner to understand explanations in other contexts; e.g. if he reads a grammar or even if he reads other threads here in the forum.​


anahiseri said:


> Por favor, Marsianitoh, ¿me puedes explicar que significa eso?


There are only two cases of impersonal sentences in Spanish:
1) the really impersonal verbs, like "llover", "nevar" etc.
2) the impersonal sentences introduced by "se".
The problem here is that "se" + verb can introduce different types of sentences.
1) Reflexive sentences; e.g. "se lava"
2) pronominal verbs (like e.g. "arrepentirse")
3) Reflexive passive sentences: e.g. se ven muchos coches: many cars are seen (note that the verb is in plural because the subject (coches) is plural). This is a passive sentence in Spanish (pasiva refleja).
4) *Impersonal sentences introduced by "se". *Here, the verb is always in the third person singular. 
1) This occurs with intransitive verbs; e.g. "Aquí se trabaja mucho".
2) it can also occur when the direct object is introduced with the personal "a".: e.g. se ve a muchos turistas. The verb is in the third person singular, like Marsianitoh has said. In Spanish, you cannot say "se ven muchos turistas", which would be a reflexive passive, but which is grammatically not correct in Spanish).​I have been a student of Spanish too (some 30 years ago) and I can say from my own experience as a student at that time, that I was very frustrated by incomplete/simplified explanations to such an extent that I started buying and reading renowned Spanish grammars on my own. 

​


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## anahiseri

Peterdg said:


> In Spanish, you cannot say "se ven muchos turistas", which would be a reflexive passive, but which is grammatically not correct in Spanish).


I don't agree. I would like to see more native speakers of Spanish  around here giving their opinion!


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## S.V.

Yes. "_Se venden flores_" would be called a "pasiva refleja" in most grammar books. They give it a different name, when it agrees in number._ Same thing_. 

_Ojalá que se encuentren los libros en la biblioteca_ can be both a pasiva refleja and pronominal _encontrarse_. It would be replaced by _be found_, or generic "they" in the first case:_ I hope they find the books in the library_. It would just mean _estar_ in the second case:_ I hope the books are in the library_.

As others have said, _ser _+ participio is not very common in Spanish. You will often use se to translate such sentences, or the conjugation for ellos (same as generic they): _Ojalá encuentren los libros_ (I hope they find the books / I hope the books are found). The subject is "generic", impersonal/passive _se _has a similar purpose; it hides the identity, the agency of the subject.


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## anahiseri

What I meant is I don't agree that
"se ven muchos turistas" is incorrect.


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## anahiseri

S.V. said:


> Yes. .


What does your *yes* refer to?


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## S.V.

Yes,_ Se ven muchos turistas_ can be correct. Passive_ se_ is still used with people, when it has indefinite articles/determiners, or none at all (_se tienen hijos_, 41.12g).

Yes was mostly for Peter saying both are possible_._ The thread is a bit side-tracked, because _se _can also be "passive _se_" (not just _ser + participio_)_._



LC_vam said:


> We just use the se+3dr person singular or 3dr person pl,and conjugate the verb according to subjuntive right?


Yes, _ojalá_ goes with the subjunctive. It is the O in WEIRDO, mid-page. That other_ *I*mpersonal_ refers to_ Es_ + ADJ + _que_: _Es maravilloso que_..._ Es una maravilla que_... Only _*es*_ cierto, seguro, evidente, indudable... *que* and a few synonyms go with the indicative. Though it's not really _impersonal_, how much trouble!


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## Peterdg

S.V. said:


> Yes,_ Se ven muchos turistas_ can be correct. Passive_ se_ is still used with people, when it has indefinite articles/determiners, or none at all (_se tienen hijos_, 41.12g).


I admit; I was too severe. I was trying to make a point (with an invalid example/conclusion). 

Let's put it this way: it would be wrong to say "se ven mis padres": "mis padres" is definite, so it would need a personal "a" when it is a direct object. Here, I think, the only possible way is "se ve a mis padres".

PS. It is important to note that "impersonal sentences" have a different meaning in Spanish than e.g. in English and Dutch and, supposedly, also in German.

In Spanish, for example, the sentence: "es bueno que estés aquí" is not considered to be an impersonal sentence: the subject is "que estés aquí".


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## S.V.

“It is nobler to declare oneself wrong than to insist on being right —especially when one is right.”  _Saludos cariñosos_.


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## LC_vam

anahiseri said:


> LC_vam, I have been studying Chinese for a bit more than a year now and it's certainly difficult, but I think trying to understand what is being said in this thread must be worse.
> I don't think you can assimilate all the concepts that have come up in such a short time.
> I insist: don't pay attention to the Spanish grammar terminology, that doesn't help at all.
> And whatever people say, the sentences with "se" are impersonal:  you don't know who (which person) is doing something.
> Los niños venden pan.
> Se vende pan. *impersonal.*
> La mujer vende flores.
> Se venden flores. *impersonal.*
> Notice the form of the verb, it is singular or plural depending on the word which is now the subject.
> The passive would be:  El pan es vendido, las flores son vendidas, but I recommend you forget about that, it is rarely used.
> Now, using the indicative or the subjunctive has got nothing to do with the rest. Any verb can be in the subjunctive. Here, for example:
> No creo que se venda pan.  No creo que se vendan flores.


I think I understand. Thank you very much^^ I thought passive voice and oraciones impersonale must use indicative. If you have any question about your chinese,ask me^^


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## LC_vam

S.V. said:


> Yes,_ Se ven muchos turistas_ can be correct. Passive_ se_ is still used with people, when it has indefinite articles/determiners, or none at all (_se tienen hijos_, 41.12g).
> 
> Yes was mostly for Peter saying both are possible_._ The thread is a bit side-tracked, because _se _can also be "passive _se_" (not just _ser + participio_)_._
> 
> Yes, _ojalá_ goes with the subjunctive. It is the O in WEIRDO, mid-page. That other_ *I*mpersonal_ refers to_ Es_ + ADJ + _que_: _Es maravilloso que_..._ Es una maravilla que_... Only _*es*_ cierto, seguro, evidente, indudable... *que* and a few synonyms go with the indicative. Though it's not really _impersonal_, how much trouble!


Thank you very much^^


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## LC_vam

Peterdg said:


> I beg to disagree. I know, "se" in Spanish is a complex issue because it has so many different functions. But, there are quite some arguments to explain it correctly.
> 1) When you give a simplified explanation, the learner will very soon encounter something that does not correspond with the simplified explanation; consequence: confusion and frustration.
> 2) When you use incorrect terminology, it will prevent the learner to understand explanations in other contexts; e.g. if he reads a grammar or even if he reads other threads here in the forum.​
> There are only two cases of impersonal sentences in Spanish:
> 1) the really impersonal verbs, like "llover", "nevar" etc.
> 2) the impersonal sentences introduced by "se".
> The problem here is that "se" + verb can introduce different types of sentences.
> 1) Reflexive sentences; e.g. "se lava"
> 2) pronominal verbs (like e.g. "arrepentirse")
> 3) Reflexive passive sentences: e.g. se ven muchos coches: many cars are seen (note that the verb is in plural because the subject (coches) is plural). This is a passive sentence in Spanish (pasiva refleja).
> 4) *Impersonal sentences introduced by "se". *Here, the verb is always in the third person singular.
> 1) This occurs with intransitive verbs; e.g. "Aquí se trabaja mucho".
> 2) it can also occur when the direct object is introduced with the personal "a".: e.g. se ve a muchos turistas. The verb is in the third person singular, like Marsianitoh has said. In Spanish, you cannot say "se ven muchos turistas", which would be a reflexive passive, but which is grammatically not correct in Spanish).​I have been a student of Spanish too (some 30 years ago) and I can say from my own experience as a student at that time, that I was very frustrated by incomplete/simplified explanations to such an extent that I started buying and reading renowned Spanish grammars on my own.
> 
> ​


I see, thank you very much


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## Artifacs

@LC_vam I'm glad you got something useful out of this little messy thread we made. Please, if you need help with something, I'll be glad to give it a try. Cheers.


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## LC_vam

Artifacs said:


> @LC_vam I'm glad you got something useful out of this little messy thread we made. Please, if you need help with something, I'll be glad to give it a try. Cheers.


thank you in advance^^


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## Marsianitoh

anahiseri said:


> Por favor, Marsianitoh, ¿me puedes explicar que significa eso?


Significa que las oraciones impersonales con "se" sólo pueden llevar verbo en singular, en aquellos casos en que te encuentres " se+ verbo transitivo en plural" estás ante una oración de pasiva refleja, aquí lo explican fenomenal Se venden casas, Se buscan actores frente a Se busca a los culpables | Real Academia Española
Los numerosos usos de "se" en castellano son un quebradero de cabeza incluso para los estudiantes españoles,  pero conviene llamar a las cosas por su nombre, de lo contrario más que ayudar se confunde.


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## anahiseri

Entiendo lo que dices, gracias Marsianitoh, pero para mí lo de "pasivo reflejo" me parece muy raro, porque no veo la reflexividad por ningún lado,  y además la oración esa es, por su sentido, igual de pasiva que las otras. (por su construcción gramatical, no es pasiva ninguna de las dos). Un alumno de español como lengua extranjera, si intenta entender esta nomenclatura, se puede hacer más lío. aún que si no le explican nada. 

Yo he sido profesora de inglés más de 20 años, y he tenido la suerte de que la terminología gramatical del inglés es sencilla y lógica. Dar clase de español me hubiera resultado mucho más difícil.


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## Marsianitoh

Estoy de acuerdo contigo en que la terminología gramatical a menudo no ayuda demasiado ( también enseño inglés y alucino con que al mes de empezar a aprender castellano le estén enseñando ese tipo de frases al pobre LC , después de ni se sabe cuántos años, algunos de mis alumnos todavía se pelean con los tenses más básicos...).Sin embargo creo que entonces hay que huir por completo de ella y evitar hablar de "impersonales" o "pasivas" con significados de andar por casa. Ese alumno, a no mucho tardar, va a consultar una gramática y ahí ya la hemos liado.


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