# FR: Usage du subjonctif imparfait - Imperfect subjunctive usage



## Starcreator

L'autre jour je parlais à l'un de mes amis français et j'ai dit "Il fallait que je sois...". "Que je fusse", il m'a corrigé, et bien que je sache ( que je susse  ) que cela devait être "que je fusse" je lui ai dit que la plupart de personnes ne s'en inquiètent pas, que l'on peut dire "que je sois" informellement.

Alors, c'est maintenant aux français à me dire si j'ai tort. Ne dit-on pas "que je sois" en oral? Ou est-ce que l'on dit toujours "que je fusse"?

Star


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## Agnès E.

Pas du tout, pas du tout, vous avez parfaitement raison et je soupçonne votre ami d'avoir tiré votre jambe très, très fort !


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## Starcreator

Mais grammatiquement, que je fusse serait plus correct, n'est-ce pas?


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## Cath.S.

_Grammaticalement_, oui.  Mais seul 0.0001% de la population parle comme ça, il faut être très très snob à mon avis.


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## Starcreator

Je pense que je prefère bien être correct grammaticalement, car c'est par la grammaire que la plupart des personnes vont me juger, n'est-ce pas? Alors, il serait un peu plus prudent de se présenter avec 'fusse', non?

Merci beaucoup de votre aide.

Star


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## superromu

il ne fallait pas que je *sois *à la bourre hier au travail 
mettre fusse ici m'herisse les poils, comme une craie sur un tableau noir !


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## Cath.S.

[…]

Star, je t'assure que beaucoup de gens (et non des plus ignares) te jugeront prétentieux si tu emploies ce genre de langage à l'oral.
Bien entendu, c'est ton choix, et le ridicule n'a encore jamais fait de morts ni de blessés graves.


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## Mr_Dog

I am a bit confused over when I can use the imperfect subjunctive (or possibly, here, the past subjunctive). Is it correct here:
Bien que cette invention permît aux masses de... (I am talking about 100+ years ago)
If not could you explain why?
Thanks very much.


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## RuK

You know what? Ordinary humans in the 21st century simply never, ever use the imperfect subjunctive. 

I'm tugging this post up to the top of the sked so our amazing grammarians will see it and explain at length.


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## Spiderkat

It has become a useless tense and nowadays nobody uses it except in literature or maybe in a very very formal speech. People may start to look at you like you were from Mars if you decided to use it in your day-to-day phrases.


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## Fred_C

However, your sentence is correct, and you have come up with a not too ridiculous use of the subjunctive imperfect. Congratulations.
(It is sometimes somewhat possible to use the imperfect subjunctive if all of these conditions are met :
* the speech is very formal
* The verb is irregular
* the person is the 3d singular.)
Otherwise, use the subjunctive present, and say "permette", even when talking about a past event.


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## Spiderkat

I wouldn't suggest the present but the past subjunctive to keep the event back in the past. If you use the present instead of the past it will give the sentence a different meaning in its context.


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## Fred_C

Well you may be right, but then the sentence with the subjunctive imperfect was wrong already. (otherwise, the imperfect subjunctive is always replaced with the present. If the present does not fit, then the imperfect did not fit.) We need the whole sentence to be able to tell.


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## Laürenar

Mr_Dog said:


> Bien que cette invention permît aux masses de... (I am talking about 100+ years ago)



Your sentence is good. Even much better than the French of nowadays could say it !
In current and spoken French, French people would say 'Bien que cette intervention ait permis' (subjonctif passé instead of imparfait du subjonctif). But it is not actually the 'very correct' form, only the way it is said in France by now.
Nevertheless, if you write in formal French, it is good to see such a tense (and very nice to read).


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## Fred_C

I am sorry to disagree. If you feel that the normal sentence is "bien que cette intervention ait permis", then the subjunctive imperfect is incorrect.
I maintain we need the whole sentence to be able to tell.
Some examples :
"Bien que cette intervention chirurgicale *permît* la guérison du patient, celui-ci celui-ci ne *voulait* pas la subir" is correct, and you could also say : "Bien que cette intervention chirurgicale *permette* la guérison du patient, celui-ci ne *voulait* pas la subir". But you cannot say : "*Bien que cette intervention chirurgicale *ait permis* la guérison du patient, celui-ci celui-ci ne *voulait* pas la subir".

If your sentence is more like : "Bien que cette intervention *ait permis* la guérison du patient, celui-ci est mort quelque mois plus tard dans un accident de la circulation", then you must use the past tense, and you cannot use the imperfect.

The answer is in the tense consistency. we need the tense of the main clause to be able to tell.


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## Mr_Dog

aha! I am very very confused now... but glad to stimulate debate!
ok, my main tense is present:

bien que l'invention permit/permette aux masses de...., il montre que...

I have left out the details because it is quite complicated in terms of subject matter.
Its an academic essay, so if I can use the imperfect subjunctive, it would be a good way of showing off 

Incidentally, is my use of the imperfect subjunctive correct here:
Il raconte dans ses mémoires que parfois les vendeurs de son studio donnaient des portraits incorrects par erreur sans que les clients s’en aperçussent

Thanks!


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## Spiderkat

Mr_Dog said:


> Incidentally, is my use of the imperfect subjunctive correct here:
> Il raconte dans ses mémoires que parfois les vendeurs de son studio donnaient des portraits incorrects par erreur sans que les clients s’en aperçussent


You should avoid this one because the way it sounds might make people smile.
... _sans que les clients ne s'en *aperçoivent*_ is and sounds better.


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## Fred_C

If everything is in the present tense, then the subjunctive imperfect is not allowed by grammar. you must use "permette".

Grammatically, your sentence with "aperçussent" is correct, but as I told you, in the 21st century, you are allowed to use the subjunctive imperfect only if these three conditions are met :
* the speech is very formal
* the verb is irregular
* the person is the 3d singular.
The first two conditions are met, but not the third one. It is therefore a case where the use of the subjunctive imperfect is ridiculous. sorry.

(My rule is useful, it allows you to find out wether your subjunctive imperfect will sound ridiculous or not.)

To summarise, you must pay attention to two things when you want to use the subjunctive imperfect.
* the first one is the grammar. You can find the rules in a good grammar book.
* the second one is "will it be ridiculous ?" It won't if the three above conditions are met.


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## Danc

After living three years living in France I'm starting to understand and communicate in French.

I find that the French use the subjunctive a lot; "Il faut que tu fasses", "c'est bien que je sache" etc.

What I don't understand is how to use the subjuntive in the past tense.

If I say "Il fallait que tu fisses" or "c'etait bien que je susse", French people laugh at me!

I can't pinpoint what they say themselves, but it appears to me that they use the present form when speaking in the past tense, e.g. "Il fallait que je sache"

I'd like to know what is the correct (or acceptable) way to deal with this, just for general speaking.


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## Cath.S.

In general conversation, we use the subjunctive present.
Il fallait que tu fasses, que je sache, etc. 

Note that _que je susse_ sounds _exactly _like _que je suce_, hence people's mirth.


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## Danc

Thanks for your reply, although I find that they laugh at the very usage of past subjuntive and not necessarily the verb savoir.

Is it correct to use "Il fallait que tu fasses, que je sache" etc?


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## [Marc]

Yes, it is now the correct way to speak, even though imperfect subjunctive is more proper from a grammatical point of view. It just sounds extremely sophisticated to a French ear, that's why people laugh. It would be like speaking Shapkespearian English in your every day life, or something like that...


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## Danc

Ah I see!
Does that mean I should completely forget about the imperfect subjunctive?
What a pity.. it sounds so cool"

"Mademoiselle, fallait-il que je m'enflamasse pour que vous m'assassinassiez"


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## [Marc]

I love it too, actually, but you have to study spanish, I think, if you want to use such beautiful expressions without people laughing out loud...
So, the only used form is the third person of singular, i.e. the one that does not look too weird : il fallait qu'il fît... but you would not use other persons, with the -assiez and -asse etc. too bad, I know... You can forget, yes...


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## jayno

It says in (the much respected) Hawkins & Towell 'French Grammar and Usage':


> In formal written French it is still possible to use all the tenses of the subjunctive: present, imperfect, compound past and pluperfect. In such cases the tense to use is determined in a broadly similar way to the choice of tenses with indicative forms of the verb. The only difference is that because there is no future or conditional subjunctive, the present tense form of the subjunctive is normally used in contexts where the future or conditional would be appropriate. However, in less formal written French, and generally in spoken French, only the present tense and the compound past tense of the subjunctive are used. In this case, the present tense forms of the subjunctive typically cover all cases where present, imperfect, simple past, future or conditional tenses of the indicative would be used.




This seems pretty clear, and it endorses what other people are saying happens in practise. I am still one of those who fears and ducks the subjunctive though, so I am impressed by your efforts to conquer it Danc.

Bon courage!


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## Qcumber

Modern colloquial French has replaced _le subjonctif imparfait_ by _le subjonctif présent_. You'll only find the former in literature. Obviously the number of native French speakers still able to use this tense is now rather small.

Il faut que tu reviennes demain.
Il a dit qu'il fallait que tu reviennes demain.

Il fallut qu'il revînt le lendemain. > Il a fallu qu'il revienne le lendemain.

You will probably have noticed this is associated with a strong reluctance to pronounce the endings: [a:s], [a:sjõ], [a:sjé]. Ask them to read this tense for a given verb, and you'll see the funny faces they make. This is fascinating. How can a people past one point in their history find some of the sound sequences of their language disgusting?

Conversely _le subjonctif passé_ is still alive and well.
e.g. Pour cela, il aurait fallu qu'il ait signé the contrat.
= For that it would have been necessary that he had signed the contract.


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## camille.ld

It doesn't sound disgusting, it sounds vulgar.
Words in "asse" or "isse", "usse" in French are mainly vulgar : connasse, pisse, suce... Police?
Ugly words, sorry. 
That's why people laugh or seem weird when hearing le subjonctif imparfait. And we're even weirder when we hear le subjonctif plus que parfait, because most of us don't know how to use it (encore eusse-t-il fallut que je fisse un effort pour vérifier mais j'avoue je ne suis pas sûre).
See Les invasions barbares, by Denys Arcand: he makes about 10 minutes of the movie on the conjugaison of the subjunctive of "pomper". Wonderful. The whole movie is wonderful.


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## Qcumber

camille.ld said:


> It doesn't sound disgusting, it sounds vulgar.


What a paradox! Only learned sophisticated people still use this tense. Very interesting. Do you know when this reluctance started? My impression is that it spread between WWI and WWII.


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## camille.ld

My explaination, although very good I must modestly admit, is only a personal guess. It's going to need confirmation by other francophones. 
As for when it started, I can only say that I've never heard someone seriously using le subjonctif plus-que-parfait, even in my snobbish high school, but I'm only 25, so I can't bring so much of an experience to the discussion... Sorry.


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## Cath.S.

> How can a people past one point in their history find some of the sound sequences of their language disgusting?


À mon humble avis, il ne s'agit pas ici du même phénomène qu'avec les phonesthèmes (le son lui-même est totalement indifférent) mais d'un phénomène de rejet du snobisme des classes dominantes de la part des représentants les moins riches de la population française, et il me semble qu'en France l'époque du Front Populaire a été le moment clé dans ce changement d'attitude - qui ne c'est certes pas produit du jour au lendemain.

En lisant Proust (oui, cela fait deux fois que j'en parle dans ces pages en très peu de temps, la raison en étant que je suis en plein _Sodome et Gomorrhe)_, on est frappé par le fait que l'élitisme de classe - alors que ce livre est écrit à la fin de la guerre de 1914-18 règne alors en maître, et on en vient à se demander si la Révolution a réellement eu lieu, si ce n'est pas un phantasme, une hallucination due à une intoxication collective et de courte durée. 

C'est donc l'émergence d'un certain populisme historique qui a conduit, à mon sens, au rejet de ces tournures que l'on a pu juger destinées à rendre un peu plus infranchissable le fossé qui sépare les élites des classes réputées plus humbles de la société.


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## Qcumber

Intéressant. J'ai aussi l'impression que les ravages de la Première Guerre Mondiale parmi les prolétaires instruits (enseignants, etc.) ont eu des conséquences graves.
De nos jours, seule une partie de la classe intellectuelle perpétue l'usage de tous les temps du subjonctif, mais les privilégiés, les riches, parlent comme les classes les plus modestes du prolétariat.


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## Cath.S.

> mais les privilégiés, les riches, parlent comme les classes les plus modestes du prolétariat.


Pas dans ma réalité.


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## itka

Egueule, je suis assez d'accord avec toi (sur tes deux messages) mais il est possible aussi que le subjonctif imparfait ait disparu tout simplement parce qu'il ne servait à rien. C'était simplement une question de concordance des temps qui n'apportait rien de plus à l'information... tout en demandant un effort considérable de mémoire, sa conjugaison n'étant pas des plus simples ! Que certaines classes l'aient maintenu pour se différencier c'est sûr. Je me souviens d'avoir dit à mes élèves étrangers, il y a ... une trentaine d'années (Mon dieu !) que l'imparfait du subjonctif avait disparu en même temps que le général de Gaulle, qui est vraiment le dernier que j'ai entendu l'utiliser avec un certain naturel... Et encore, pas tous les jours !

STP, qu'est-ce qu'un phonesthème ?  Jamais entendu ce mot !


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## Cath.S.

Possible, Itka, quoique je doute que l'évolution du langage obéisse uniquement aux lois de la raison. 



> STP, qu'est-ce qu'un phonesthème ?  Jamais entendu ce mot !


Si j'ai parlé de phonesthème, c'est en référence à cette discussion récente à laquelle plusieurs membres ici présents avaient participé.


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## itka

Merci ! J'aime bien les _cognophones_ !


Ci-dessus :
Je ne parlais pas des lois de la raison, mais simplement de l'économie de la langue : la loi du moindre effort, si tu veux. Tout ce qui n'est pas pertinent pour l'information tend à disparaître d'une langue. C'est souvent ainsi que les langues évoluent.


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## Cath.S.

Il me semble que nos deux thèses, loin de s'opposer, se complètent.

L'imparfait du subjonctif peut être considéré comme un luxe inutile, comme la longue traîne brodée d'une robe de cour, un accessoire tendant à indiquer que celui qui choisit de s'en encombrer est libre de son temps, n'ayant pas, manifestement, à se préoccuper d'efficacité et de rendement.


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## idialegre

Could someone please tell me when it is appropriate to use the imperfect subjunctive as opposed to the present subjunctive? I learned in school (I think - it was a long time ago  )  to say

Mon professeur de chant exigait que je chantasse une heure chaque jour.

But I often see the present subjunctive (...que je chante...) used instead.

Also with passé simple

Il exigea que j'apprisse l'Air des Bijoux. (Or "apprenne"??)

I would like to know which is correct, which is colloquial, which is literary, etc. Many thanks!


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## Outsider

The _passé simple_ and the _imparfait du subjonctif_ are both literary/antiquated. In speech, they are replaced with the _passé composé_ and the _présent du subjonctif_, respectively. The _imparfait du subjonctif_ actually seems to sound weird to native speakers, in speech.


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## mickaël

In fact, we don't use anymore the imperfect subjunctive. You can find it only in the literature (in old books essentially).


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## Frogac

Imperfect subjonctive is not use yet. So you have to say "que je chante", and "que j'apprenne"


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## gatacaliente89

I find that it is not used at all today. None of the French novels that I am reading use it. eg. Elle voulait que je lui parle, *not* elle voulait que je lui parlasse.  I know it is spoken that way, but I don't see it written all that much.


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## jann

Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but the imperfect subjunctive is not at all, by any stretch of the imagination, part of daily spoken language in modern French. You will only find it in literature... which does not necessarily include modern novels. I am not at all surprised that you have read _Elle voulait que je lui parle_... and I would have been very surprised if you had heard people speaking saying _Elle voulait que je lui parlasse_!


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## Maître Capello

I totally agree with Jann's comments.

I would like to add that the third singular person of the imperfect subjunctive is a bit more used because it is pronounced the same as the simple past, e.g., _Elle voulait qu'il lui parlât_.


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## bofdico

I'm french==>You can be sure that the imperfect subjunctive is no more used exept in a few quotations.
A few years ago, "L'Académie française"=a group of people who decide what are the grammar rules, etc...has authorized the use of the present subjunctive instead of the imperfect subjunctive.
Indeed, even in novels, it's not used any more.*
If you use it, people can think you are haughty!
*However, it's important to be able to recognize it, because former playwrights used it (Molière for example) and some of there plays are very famous and quite funny I have to say.
But don't get crazy if you can't learn this tense, because even french people sometimes don't know...(sometimes)...


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## gatacaliente89

I meant that I know that people say "Elle voulait que je lui parle", but "elle voulait que je lui parlasse" is not written all that much. Merci pour l'aide!


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## Tchesko

To elaborate on what Bofdico wrote, even well educated people here in France (e.g. many teachers, even though not teachers of French) often have difficulties when it comes to forming the imperfect subjunctive (which they also sometimes have with the simple past tense).


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## maybe4ever

I was studying that there are certain occasions where le subjonctif imparfait can't be replaced by any other subjunctive as it would be wrong.

Are these following sentences examples of where le subjonctif imparfait is required.

Il se plaignait que nous fussions en retard tous les jours.

Elle craignait qu'on se regardât toujours.

For the 1st example I believe the imperfect subjunctive is required because, en retard happens in the past, so this eliminates present subjunctive. Also past subjunctive and pluperfect subjunctive can't be used because this would indicate that the act of being late happened in the past for a time and was over at the time that is being mentioned which isn't the case.

For the 2nd example I believe the imperfect subjunctive is required because toujours states a habitual action.

Are these correct uses of the imperfect subjunctive?


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## Elstevan

Yes, normally, if the present is used in the 1st proposition "Il se plaint", we use the present subjunctive "que nous soyons" and if the 1st proposition is in the past like here, we use the imperfect subjunctive.
And the pluperfect subjonctive is not very used.
For me these are correct uses.


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## gardian

Chaque fois que j'utilise le subjonctif imparfait 

(p.e. Je voulusse y aller mais j'avais pas reçu quelque invitation.)

c'est pas compris par ceux à qui j'écris.

Es-ce que c'est maintenant totalement mort en communication normale et en communication d'affaires ?

En l'espagnol c'est souvent essential à utiliser le subjonctif imparfait.
J'ai été dit que c'est aussi en l'allmand.

Es-ce que c'est maintenant totalement mort ?


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## Fred_C

Bonjour,
Vous ne pouvez pas utiliser le subjonctif imparfait dans la phrase "Je voulusse y aller, mais...".
Voilà pourquoi on ne vous comprend pas !
(Le subjonctif imparfait ne peut jamais remplacer le conditionnel présent, mais le subjonctif plus-que parfait peut remplacer le conditionnel passé.)

Dans les propositions subordonnées complétives, si la principale est au passé, le subjonctif imparfait est encore tout à fait possible avec certains verbes, à certaines personnes.

Il s'agit des verbes irréguliers (pas de verbes en "er" ou réguliers en "ir").
Les personnes autorisées sont la troisième personne du singulier, la troisième du pluriel, et parfois aussi les deux premières du singulier.

Ainsi, les phrases "il fallait que cela fût dit", ou "La chance voulut qu'il survécût à l'accident" sont littéraires, mais tout à fait actuelles et courantes.


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## autap6

Bonjour

Je ne sais pas s'il est totalement mort, moi je ne l'utilise plus.

Et dans les articles que je lis je ne le vois plus.

Dans des romans, oui, on l'utilise encore.


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## miyamoto.musashi

Fallait-il que je vous aimasse pour que vous m'assassinassiez?


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## Fred_C

Bonjour,
Cette phrase sonne trop "précieux", et on ne peut plus la dire ni l'écrire de nos jours. (Les verbes "aimer" et "assassiner" sont des verbes réguliers en ER, et l'imparfait du subjonctif sonne toujours "précieux" sur ces verbes.)


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## janpol

je l'utilise à l'écrit et l'on ne me fait jamais de remarques, ce qui montre qu'on s'habitue à tout, même au respect des règles.


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## French_Student_53

Hi,
Okay so I am studying French at school and I am easily the best student in my year for French and my teacher expects a lot from me so I try to impress her by using complex structures such as present subjunctives but I really want to show her that I can also use the passé simple and imparfait du subjonctif. I know that these tenses are reserved for formal and literary uses in modern French but I would really like her to know my full capabilities so there are two things I would like to know:

1) Would I get marked down for using the passé simple or l'Imparfait du Subjonctif in an exam and do you think my teacher would be impressed?

2) I heard that there are some situations where the imperfect subjunctive cannot be replaced by the present or perfect subjunctive as they would know longer make sense. Is this an example of where the imperfect subjunctive has to be used:

Je craignais qu'il n'y eût assez de sièges
Le prof se plaignait que son classe ne fît jamais les devoirs

Et aussi:

Qu'il fît chaud ou qu'il fît froid


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## Maître Capello

You can definitely use the passé simple if you're telling a story or the like. But unless you're studying linguistics, I suggest you *never* use the imperfect or pluperfect subjunctives. Most of the time you can use the present or past subjunctive instead and it sounds way better. And in the few cases where you can't use another tense, there is always a workaround.

If you want to impress your teacher, you should start off with using proper grammar.

_Je craignais qu'il n'y *ait* pas assez de sièges._
_Le professeur se plaignait que sa classe ne *fasse* jamais ses devoirs._
_Qu'il *fasse* chaud ou qu'il *fasse* froid, Marc n'était jamais content._


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## French_Student_53

OK, Thanks for the advice but if I were to use the imperfect subjunctive would she be impressed or would it just sound strange to her?  She is from martinique so I am not sure if they are taught how to conjugate such tenses as they are in mainland France


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## adeline77

Listen: "l'imparfait du subjonctif" is used for some very particular structures like "maitre capello" has written. And in those case, your teacher will understand (is not for coming from martinique that she could not understand imparfait du subjonctif!!!.however, it will be very very very weird if you use this tense not in novels (or worst, if you using is wrong). even for French it's weird to see it sometimes (a big part of them doesn't knows how transformate a verb in imparfait du subjonctif).but you have to be very... carryfull.and an other piece of advice: Learn very well your passé simple because is not easy easy, even for French but it's the "foundation" of french litterature.I hope you understand me


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## Maître Capello

French_Student_53 said:


> if I were to use the imperfect subjunctive would she be impressed or would it just sound strange to her?


It would most likely just sound strange to her as to any francophone. You may use it humorously. Otherwise you should stick to the present and past subjunctives.


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## mancunienne girl

I am writing an account of a recent holiday.... and want to say "it's a pity I hadn't brought my top because it was cold...." My attempt is "dommage que je n'eusse pas apporté mon haut, parce qu'il faisait froid", but I''m not sure the pluperfect subjunctive is much used in informal speech nowadays. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## atcheque

mancunienne girl said:


> but I''m not sure the pluperfect subjunctive is much used in informal speech nowadays.


 even in formal speech

_dommage que je n'aie pas apporté_ ... would be perfect


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## mancunienne girl

So Atchque, are you saying that nowadays that the perfect subjunctive is used in place of the pluperfect subjunctive, even though there is a different sense in the original English?


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## atcheque

That's it since 1900-1901


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## Oddmania

The Imperfect subjunctive _ (qu'il fût...) _and the Pluperfect one _(qu'ils eût été...)_ are hardly ever used nowadays. Only the _Passé Composé_ (_qu'il ait été..._) and the Present subjunctives (_qu'il soit..._) are commonly used 

_C'est dommage que je n'aie pas pris mon pull/sweat-shirt/T-shirt, parce-qu'il faisait froid._


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## Maître Capello

mancunienne girl said:


> So Atchque, are you saying that nowadays that the perfect subjunctive is used in place of the pluperfect subjunctive, even though there is a different sense in the original English?


Yes. In modern, standard French, anteriority in the subjunctive is always marked by using the past subjunctive, whether in reference to a present or past event. We don't use the imperfect or pluperfect subjunctives in everyday speech or writing anymore.


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