# auch "das liebe Gott" sagen zu können



## candel

Hi,

Can someone help me with this? Is "sagen" here a verb or a noun? It is a verb I think.

* Mit ihrem Erziehungstipp, emanzipierten kleinen Mädchen zuliebe auch  "das liebe Gott" sagen zu können, stieß die Ministerin auf wenig  Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde. *
*

It concerns the gender of God. 

With her tip on raising a child, she emancipates little girls with "the dear God" saying...

It all seems such a mess of a sentence...if it were a pudding I wouldn't pay for it...*


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## exgerman

In the face of her tip on child-raising (that for the benefit of (=zuliebe)  emancipated little girls, you can say "das liebe Gott" as well (=auch) as "der liebe Gott"), the minister received little neighborly love from the members of her party.

Reading up on the background, her argument is not being summarized well in this sentence.


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## candel

I got the gist ok...it just seemed a difficult structure..sort of "legalese" or how they write in contract and tort.


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## exgerman

No, it's pretty straightforward German. They even put the commas in the right place, to help you parse the infinitive phrase as an apposition to Erziehungstipp.. 

I can see how you might stumble over the post-position _zuliebe_ (_for the benefit of_ if you approve, _as a concession to_ if you disapprove). That's the only odd thing I can see in the sentence. _Zuliebe_ is *preceded* by its object, which is in the dative case.


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## Gernot Back

exgerman said:


> Reading up on the background, her argument is not being summarized well in this sentence.


For those who are interested: The background is this one:
http://www.sprachlog.de/2012/12/21/fuer-gott-und-pippi-langstrumpf/


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## candel

Just alien grammar...it is so far from my native grammar that it might as well be Martian this...what is the subject of * können?
 Or is the subject some infinitive..."sagen zu ** können"?

The last clause is straightforward...she met with little charity from her friends in her party. German can be very elaborate  < ... >.*


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## Demiurg

There are essentially two sentences:

_Die Ministerin stieß mit ihrem Erziehungstipp auf wenig Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde.
Ihr Erziehungstipp lautete: "Man kann (emanzipierten kleinen Mädchen zuliebe) auch 'das liebe Gott' sagen."_


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## exgerman

candel said:


> *
> Or is the subject some infinitive..."sagen zu ** können"?
> *


Did you read post #4 where I say it's an* infinitve phrase in apposition to* Erziehungstipp?


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## Hutschi

It is an infinitive with "zu" phrase in apposition to Erziehungstipp.
I can easily rephrase the sentence:

_Mit ihrem *Erziehungstipp, emanzipierten kleinen Mädchen zuliebe auch   "das liebe Gott" sagen zu können,* stieß die Ministerin auf wenig   Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde. 
_
_Die Ministerin stieß mit ihrem Erziehungstipp, emanzipierten kleinen Mädchen zuliebe auch   "das liebe Gott" sagen zu können, auf wenig   Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde. 
_This is a wordorder nearly corresponding to the English one.

_"Mit ihrem Erziehungstipp, emanzipierten kleinen Mädchen zuliebe auch   "das liebe Gott" sagen zu können, "_ - all this is the first phrase followed by the finite verb "stieß" in the second position in the original sentence.


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## candel

What would that English be Hutschi?

Yes Demi thanks for breaking it down, now if only Germans actually spoke that way we simple Islanders would stand a chance..


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## Sowka

candel said:


> Yes Demi thanks for breaking it down, now if only Germans actually spoke that way we simple Islanders would stand a chance..



I agree with exgerman: The original sentence is a quite straightforward written sentence in German. Demiurg's sentences in #7, making the structure of the sentence visible, are correct, of course, but to me they sound unnatural.


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## berndf

candel said:


> Just alien grammar...it is so far from my native grammar that it might as well be Martian this...what is the subject of * können?
> Or is the subject some infinitive..."sagen zu ** können"?
> 
> The last clause is straightforward...she met with little charity from her friends in her party. German can be very elaborate  < ... >.*


I suspect your problem is aggravated by the fact that in German modal verbs have infinitives. In English this is not possible and you have to use alternative formulation in cases where you would need an infinitive:
_Ich kann kommen = I can come.
Ich hoffe kommen zu können = I hope to can come = I hope to be able to come.

_In this case,_ können _means _to be allowed _and not_ to be able. _Bearing this and the aforementioned in mind, let me attempt an almost literal translation. It won't be idiomatic English but the grammatical structure should at least be understandable:_
With this educational hint, [viz.] for the benefit of emancipated little girls to be allowed to say "das liebe Gott", the minister received little neighbourly love from the members of her party._


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## Hamlet2508

Just one question corncerning another bit of the original sentence.

To me , the bit about _wenig Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde_ does not sound 100% correct. I would think it should be "wenig Nächstenliebe bei ihren....." , since there seems to be something amiss (I can't put my finger on it , it just sounds a wee bit off)

sorry if this is off topic


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## berndf

Hamlet2508 said:


> ...there seems to be something amiss (I can't put my finger on it , it just sounds a wee bit off)


Not to me. I find _wenig Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde_ perfectly all right.


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## Perseas

I would like to approach the subject from the aspect of a non-native speaker.



berndf said:


> I suspect your problem is aggravated by the fact that in German modal verbs have infinitives.



Or the problem would just be to understand the structure  "Infinitiv mit zu". For a non-native speaker (like me) this is not the easiest thing.



candel said:


> what is the subject of * können?
> Or is the subject some infinitive..."sagen zu ** können"?
> *



Example:
_Es ist schön, dich zu kennen_. --> _It is nice to meet you_.
The whole phrase "dich zu kennen" provides additional information or completes the idea of the main sentence. What is the subject of "kennen"? It's a matter of structure: "Infinitiv mit zu".

In your sentence the phrase within the commas is in apposition to "Erziehungstipp", as has already been aforementioned. The structure is again: "Infinitiv mit zu".


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## berndf

Perseas said:


> Or the problem would just be to understand the  structure  "Infinitiv mit zu". For a non-native speaker (like me) this  is not the easiest thing.


The Infinitiv mit zu as such shouldn't  be difficult for an English speaker because, as you rightly pointed out,  the concept exists in English as well. The problem, I suspect, is  rather the context of its use here.


candel said:


> Just alien grammar...it is so far from my native grammar that it might as well be Martian this...what is the subject of * können?*


It doesn't have one. It is a kind of an adverbially used noun (an infinitive if by its nature a noun). In English you would often use a gerund:
_I hate *going *to work on Monday = Ich hasse es, montags zur Arbeit *zu gehen*._


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## candel

*Mit ihrem Erziehungstipp, emanzipierten kleinen Mädchen zuliebe auch   "das liebe Gott" sagen zu können, stieß die Ministerin auf wenig   Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde. 

Above: the original.

**Mit ihrem Erziehungstipp,sie emanzipierte kleine M**ädchen auch* "das liebe Gott" sagen zu *können, stiess die Ministerin aber auf wenig* *  Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde.

Is this acceptable German? I would understand this.

With her child-rearing tip she also  liberated little girls to be able to say "das liebe Gott", the minister met however little sympathy among her party colleagues.
*


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## berndf

It seems you didn't understand it after all. Allowing the expression "das liebe Gott" *IS* the _Erziehungstip_. Little girls were not being emancipated by the minister. They had been emancipated before. The clause _emanzipierten kleinen Mädchen zuliebe_ is just an addition to indicate for who's benefit the hint was given.

Please re-read my half-literal "translation" in #12 and try to understand the structure, even if it isn't idiomatic English.


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## candel

I think at last a bell has rung...

*Mit ihrem Erziehungstipp, emanzipierten kleinen Mädchen zuliebe auch   "das liebe Gott" sagen zu können, stieß die Ministerin auf wenig   Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde. *
*

So, with this tip ( dative), emancipating little girls  to be able also to say "das liebe Gott" (apposition dative, zuliebe dative), she met with little support among party colleagues.

Why is the verb "emanzipieren" in past?
*


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## Perseas

If I may render  the content of the minister's educating hint into direct speech (Demiurg #7 has already done this in German), I would do it as follows:

The minister: _Someone could also say "das liebe Gott" (instead of "der liebe Gott") for the sake of the emancipated little girls._ 

This hint didn't receive much support from her party colleagues, obviously because she suggested that someone could use the neuter article  before God (das Gott), instead of the masculine (der Gott).


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## berndf

candel said:


> *Why is the verb "emanzipieren" in past?*


_Emanzipierten_ is not a verb, it is an adjective (more precisely a past participle used as an attributive adjective:_ empanzipiert_+dative plural ending_ -en_).


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## candel

*Mit ihrem Erziehungstipp, emanzipierten kleinen Mädchen zuliebe auch   "das liebe Gott" sagen zu können, stieß die Ministerin auf wenig   Nächstenliebe ihrer Parteifreunde.

With her hint, for the benefit of emancipated little girls to be able to say "das liebe Gott"...?

It is an odd sentence in the sense that there should exist such "emancipated little girls" who actually think that way in the first place perhaps.
*


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## berndf

candel said:


> *It is an odd sentence in the sense that there should exist such "emancipated little girls" who actually think that way in the first place perhaps.*


Exactly. And that's why it is not odd because such girls exist, in the opinion of the author at least, and because "das liebe Gott" is supposed to be encouragement. Not that I agree with this; but that's what the author thinks.


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## candel

Yes got there in the end said the tortoise...


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## Hutschi

As far as I see it is a part of a "political correctness" principle to change the language to modify the grammatical gender.
They seem to think that modifying words modifies the world. 
The truth is, it worked only very restricted (sehr begrenzt).
Emancipation is not reachable in modifying words without modifiyng the conditions.

The original sentence is "Is the sentence acceptable in German?"
I think, it depends on who you ask.
In a sense of grammar it is only acceptable as neologism.
In society it includes some kind of provocation. It shows that emancipation has different views.


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