# cups, glasses and bottles: nouns vs. classifiers



## Nino83

こんにちは、みなさん。

In Japanese there are different words for some containers. Some are nouns and some are classifiers.

Cups.
Kimi wa kōhī o 3-*pai* mo nonda yo. 君はコーヒーを３杯も飲んだよ。 You have drunk two cups of coffe.
Korera no *chawan* wa min'na kowarete iru. これらの茶碗はみんな壊れている。 These cups are all broken.

Glasses.
Kare wa mizu o *koppu* de san-*pai* mo nonda. 彼は水をコップで三杯も飲んだ。 He drank three glasses of water.
Orenji jūsu o 2-*pai* kudasai オレンジジュースを２杯ください。 Two glasses of orange juice, please.
Korera no *koppu* wa utsukushii. これらのコップは美しい。 These glasses are beautiful.

Bottles.
Karera wa wain o 2-*hon* nonda. 彼らはワインを２本飲んだ。 They drank two bottles of wine.
Kare wa bīru o san-*bon* nonda 彼はビールを三本飲んだ。 He drank three bottles of beer.
Biiru *bin* wa garasu de dekite iru. ビールびんはガラスでできている。 Beer bottles are made of glass.

(All these sentences are taken from the Tanaka corpus).

I know that common nouns cannot be used as classifier.

1) Do you use the same classifier for cups and glasses? If I go to a bar and say "Orenji jūsu o 2-*pai* kudasai" what will I have? Two cups or two glasses of orange juice?
Should I specify if I want a cup or a glass, for example saying "Orenji jūsu o *chawan/koppu* de 2-*pai* kudasai"?

2) Can I use classifiers as noun? Do they have a full semantic meaning and can they be used as nouns?
Korera no *pai* wa min'na kowarete iru. これらの杯はみんな壊れている。 These cups are all broken.
Korera no *pai* wa utsukushii. これらの杯は美しい。 These glasses are beautiful.
Biiru *hon* wa garasu de dekite iru. ビール本はガラスでできている。 Beer bottles are made of glass.

3) With demonstrative pronouns, like in "this/that(these/those) bottle(s)", classifiers are not needed but what happens with indefinite pronouns, like "some, many, a lot of, no, any"? Are classifiers required in these cases?

ありがとうございます


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## ktdd

I think this Wikipedia article can answer most of your questions:
Japanese counter word - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These words are called 助数詞, which means they cannot be used independently. They must be modified by a word expressing a numeric value, even that value is undetermined.

These words have nothing to do with the actual container. They are just, well, classifiers. 本 doesn't even mean 'bottle'. It means 'long-thin-object-counter'. It's originally used to count trees! And it's purely incidental that 杯 can also be used as a normal noun. So better think of them as two different words.

Speaking of 杯, its dictionary reading is _hai_, but changes when combined with different numbers: 一杯 _ippai_, 二杯 _nihai_, 三杯 _sanbai_, ... Fun, isn't it? Oh and in East Asian countries, people don't distinguish between cups and glasses. You get your drinks in what's customary for them to come in with, and you really don't care whether the container has a handle or not or what's the geometry and the material.

One last thing. There's no such thing as indefinite pronouns in Japanese. Certain constructions serve the same purpose and are translated as indefinite pronouns, but they are not by themselves pronouns, let along indefinite pronouns.


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## Nino83

ktdd said:


> These words are called 助数詞, which means they cannot be used independently.


I wanted to be sure that in Japanese it was so, seeing that in Malay/indonesian, classifiers (which are optional) are full nouns, _orang_ (people), _ekor_ (tail), _buah_ (fruit).


ktdd said:


> One last thing. There's no such thing as indefinite pronouns in Japanese. Certain constructions serve the same purpose and are translated as indefinite pronouns, but they are not by themselves pronouns, let along indefinite pronouns.


I'm sorry. I don't know how these words are called by Japanese or Chinese grammarians, this is why I'm asking here.
What I see is that some words need a classifier in Chinese while they do not in Japanese.

This book. この本. 这*本*书.
Every month. 毎月. 每*个*月.

I'd like to ask you if sentences like "there are some/many/few/no books" or "there are not any books" need a classifier or not. If it is not possible to answer this question, thanks anyway.


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## ktdd

Correct me if I'm wrong.
There are few books. 本がほとんどない。　没几本书。
There are a few books. 本が少しある／数冊の本がある／二三冊の本がある。　有那么几本书。
There are several books. 複数の本がある。　有好几本书。
There are some books. いくつかの本がある／幾冊(か)の本がある。　有几本书。
There are many books. 本がたくさんある／本が何冊もある/多数の本がある／数々の本がある。　书多得是/有很多书。
There aren't any books / There is no book. 本が一冊もない。　一本书也没有。


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## Ocham

I visualized "Orenji jūsu o *chawan* de".
It looks like "corn soup in a chawan".


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> これらの杯はみんな壊れている。 These cups are all broken.
> これらの杯は美しい。 These glasses are beautiful.
> ビール本はガラスでできている。 Beer bottles are made of glass.



The word 杯 is academically formal, for example, when you say about Greek amphorae.
The word "cup" here? We need to choose any word that means container according to how it looks. コップ・コーヒーカップ・ちゃわん・・
This is a confusing thing, so if you need to be very accurate to say it you need help.



> Biiru hon wa garasu de dekite iru. ビール本はガラスでできている。 Beer bottles are made of glass.


You can say _biiru bin_, ビール瓶. When you count a ビール瓶 you can say ビール瓶が一本、二本・・ yes, this is a bit annoying, too. 



ktdd said:


> There are few books. 本がほとんどない。
> There are a few books. 本が少しある／数冊の本がある／二三冊の本がある。
> There are many books. 本がたくさんある／本が何冊もある/多数の本がある／数々の本がある。
> There aren't any books / There is no book. 本が一冊もない。


Yes



> There are several books. 複数の本がある。
> There are some books. いくつかの本がある／幾冊(か)の本がある。



本がいくつかある。・本が数冊ある。 are okay, and 本が５冊ぐらいある。・本が１０冊ぐらいある。 _X_冊ぐらいある is a popular way, too.


As you have already noticed that we use three ways for describing numerals: 5, ５, 五. Especially, you may wonder which you should use 5 or ５, but both are okay. We're mixing the three, actually.


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> The word 杯 is academically formal, for example, when you say about Greek amphorae.


Interesting. I read that some classifiers derive from nouns (word that in the past were used as nouns).
@ktdd thank you for the examples.


ktdd said:


> Oh and in East Asian countries, people don't distinguish between cups and glasses. You get your drinks in what's customary for them to come in with, and you really don't care whether the container has a handle or not or what's the geometry and the material.


Thanks.
So I guess that cold liquids are served in glasses and hot ones in cups, is it right?


Ocham said:


> I visualized "Orenji jūsu o *chawan* de". It looks like "corn soup in a chawan".


It's a bit unusual to see orange juices into cups. 

Another question.
When I use the classifier つ, how do I have to pronounce it? Using the native Japanese numbers?
For example, if I say オレンジ二個 the pronunciation is "orenji ni-ko", but if I say オレンジ二つ I should pronounce "orenji futatsu" or "orenji ni-tsu"?


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## Ocham

１　いっぱい　いっぽん　いっぴき　ひとつ
２　にはい　　にほん　　にひき　　ふたつ
３　さんばい　さんぼん　さんびき　みっつ
４　よんはい　よんほん　よんひき　よっつ
５　ごはい　　ごほん　　ごひき　　いつつ
６　ろっぱい　ろっぽん　ろっぴき　むっつ
７　ななはい　ななほん　ななひき　ななつ
８　はちはい　はちほん　はちひき　やっつ
　　はっぱい　はっぽん　はっぴき　
９　きゅうはい　きゅうほん　きゅうひき　ここのつ
10 じゅっぱい　じゅっぽん　じゅっぴき　とお

You should be careful about 1, 3, 6, 10.  Only 8 has two ways of pronouncing. The forth colum "tsu" has a wider use, but is used only up to 10.


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## Nino83

Thank you very much, Ocham.


Ocham said:


> The forth colum "tsu" has a wider use, but is used only up to 10.


So is it not possible to use it with higher numbers?
I read that つ is a general classifier (for many abstract nouns and nouns that don't have a specific classifier).
If you have 22 units of something that takes the classifier つ, how would you express it?  
二十二つ? "ni jū ni tsu" or "ni jū futatsu"?


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## Ocham

"つ" can be used only up to 10, more precisely up to 9, because we don't have "つ" for 10. We say "とお" instead.
"Ni jū ni tsu" sounds funny and makes us laugh, but can be misunderstood for "22通(tsū)", which means "22 letters."


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## Nino83

Ocham said:


> "つ" can be used only up to 10, more precisely up to 9


Thanks.
I read that "There is also a generic counter for *when none of the more specific counter applies*. This counter goes up to ten" here.
I've some doubt about this.
Are there nouns that doesn't have any specific classifier?
In this case do they take つ as classifier?
If in some situation there are more than 10 units of one of these nouns, how can one express it? 

EDIT:
Maybe I've found a partial answer in "Japanese Numeral Classifiers: A Syntactic, Semantic, and Functional Profile." by Pamela Ann Downing (1984), pp. 63-64:



> *Tu is used very frequently, and in other cases full abstract nouns are simply appended to the numerals*, as in 19):
> 
> kozin no songen to ryoosei no honstituteki byoodoo no *ni-genri*...
> 
> the *two principles* of individual dignity and fundamenta equality of the two sexes...
> 
> There also appears to be considerable flux in this part of the system, *with full nouns often appearing in classifier position*, always with the inherent possibility that they will one day become full-fledged members of the classifier system, usable in the company of another co-ref erring noun, as many nouns, like tuuwa 'phone call' or toori 'method,1 have in the past.



So, it seems that if a noun doesn't have a specific classifier, if the number of units is less than 10, _tsu_ can be used but if it is more than 10, the noun can follow *directly* the number. 

Do you confirm this?


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## Ocham

I don't understand "the noun can follow directly the number."
If you mean these ↓, some are OK, but mostly NO.

１ nichi (=day)「いち にち（日）」OK
２ nichi (=day)「に にち（日）」NO
２ fukuro（＝bag)「ふた ふくろ（袋）」OK
３ eki (=station)「さん えき（駅）」OK
５ eki (=station)「ご えき（駅）」NO
８ tsukue (=desk)「はち つくえ（机）」NO

Very complicated and confusing! There is no clear-cut rules.


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## Nino83

The paper speaks especially about abstract nouns. Japanese (like other languages with classifiers, like Vietnamese, Thai, Brumese) has very few classifiers for abstract concepts. 

For example if you have to say that something is based on 22 principles, how would you write it? 
二十二原理?


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## Ocham

I would, by all means, avoid saying something that is based on 22 principles, or would simply say "多くの原理 (_ooku no genri_=many principles)." I've never heard or seen anything that is based on so many principles. If I had no choice but to use 22 principles, I would say "二十二の原理 (nijyuu no genri)".


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## ktdd

Nino83 said:


> For example if you have to say that something is based on 22 principles, how would you write it?


十四か条の平和原則 - Wikipedia


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## Nino83

Ocham said:


> "多くの原理 (_ooku no genri_=many principles)."
> "二十二の原理 (nijyuu no genri)".


Thank you, Ocham! 


ktdd said:


> 十四か条の平和原則 - Wikipedia


Ah, ok, it is listed in this page as counter for "Articles of law, thin objects, rays or streams of light, streaks of smoke or lightning" but according to tangorin it is a noun if pronounced じょう (like in じゅうよんかじょうのへいわげんそく) while it represents long thin objects if it's pronounced すじ (also written 筋). 

Thank you all for your answers.


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## ktdd

Nino83 said:


> Ah, ok, it is listed in this page as counter for "Articles of law, thin objects, rays or streams of light, streaks of smoke or lightning" but according to tangorin it is a noun if pronounced じょう (like in じゅうよんかじょうのへいわげんそく) while it represents long thin objects if it's pronounced すじ (also written 筋).


Nah, 箇条 ≠ 条.

か-じょう ―デウ 【箇条･個条】
■一■ [0] (名)
事柄によっていくつかに分けて書き並べたものの,一つ一つ｡｢該当する―｣
■二■ (接尾)
(｢か条｣｢ケ条｣とも書く)助数詞｡数を表す漢語に付いて,条項や項目の数を数えるのに用いる｡｢三―からなる要求｣
Source: 三省堂 大辞林


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## Nino83

ktdd said:


> 箇条 ≠ 条.


Thank you for the info!
If someone doesn't know the specific counter, I think there are three ways to avoid the problem:
"Gomen! Nihongo no josūshi o shirimasen."
"Neko wa tsukue no ue ni imasu!"
"Twenty two!" If the listener doesn't understand, repeat, aloud, "ventidue!"

I think I wll start with the most common ones (I read that the percentage of frequency of seven counters is equal to 85%)

Thanks everyone!


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