# Arabic as a second language in countries with large non-Arab, Muslim populations



## BaraniskoDyskoteka

Arabic in Muslim countries...
Is it common to speak Arabic as second language in countries like: Turkey, Iran, Afganistan, Somalia ?
how many there know Arabic?
I know it must be used to read Koran.


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## Chazzwozzer

Well, I'll be honest and speaking frankly.

I can't say anything for other countries but I'll speak on behalf of my country, which you've named in your post.

Please be careful when you use adjectives such as "Islamic" or "Muslim" if Turkey is involved in your list.

We have _so _many people here easily get offended or mad when they hear their secular country is described as "Muslim" along with other Islamic Republics. Well, it's also considered as _challange _the secular structure of the state, which is a reason to be jailed according to Turkish code. Since you're not in Turkey, you're in safe. 

I've never met any Turks whose second or foreign language is Arabic. I dare to say it's not common at all, but that does not mean it is never spoken. I believe in eastern regions, it's slightly more common, which is manily because people immigrate from Arabic-speaking countries and conservative Kurds prefer Arabic rather than Turkish.

Frankly and sadly, Arabic has a terrible reputation over here. For many people, it's the dangerous language that represents Islamism and anti-secularism.

If you think I'm making it up, check this out. This is the recent and popular TV commerical of a very strong secularist newspaper named Republic. Text goes backwards and looks like as if it's in Arabic and read as "Do you sense the danger?" with a very tragic sound playing background. It's also in green which is known as symbolic color of Islam. Then it says: Save your republic! Of course it's sarcastic and has many references but tells what I was trying to say about reputation of Arabic.



> I know it must be used to read Koran.


 Even ezan which is ALWAYS in Arabic around the world, was once translated and sung(?) in pure Turkish and Arabic was officially banned. Atatürk thought Turks who believe in Islam should pray in their own language and be careful not to Arabize. Of course, most think it was disrespect to religion, so then they choosed not to offend people and unbanned Arabic.

In the "religious books" section of a bookstore in Turkey, you're likely to see the books named "PRAYING IN MOTHER TONGUE" and so on..

But there are still other kind of people. What about them, those Muslims in Turkey who read Koran in Arabic? Well, they learn the alphabet and some tricks or whatever, so they just read the letters! I tried to tell them that they should read it in Turkish if they want to understand what it says, they said they felt in in their hearths! It's not my business but theirs. It's fine by me!

I believe it's been a good answer. If you or anyone else has a question, please feel free to ask.

Cheers,
Ekin


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## Setwale_Charm

Chazzwozzer said:


> Well, I'll be honest and speaking frankly.
> 
> I can't say anything for other countries but I'll speak on behalf of my country, which you've named in your post.
> 
> Please be careful when you use adjectives such as "Islamic" or "Muslim" if Turkey is involved in your list.
> 
> We have _so _many people here easily get offended or mad when they hear their secular country is described as "Muslim" along with other Islamic Republics. Well, it's also considered as _challange _the secular structure of the state, which is a reason to be jailed according to Turkish code. Since you're not in Turkey, you're in safe.
> 
> I've never met any Turks whose second or foreign language is Arabic. I dare to say it's not common at all, but that does not mean it is never spoken. I believe in eastern regions, it's slightly more common, which is manily because people immigrate from Arabic-speaking countries and conservative Kurds prefer Arabic rather than Turkish.
> 
> Frankly and sadly, Arabic has a terrible reputation over here. For many people, it's the dangerous language that represents Islamism and anti-secularism.
> 
> If you think I'm making it up, check this out. This is the recent and popular TV commerical of a very strong secularist newspaper named Republic. Text goes backwards and looks like as if it's in Arabic and read as "Do you sense the danger?" with a very tragic sound playing background. It's also in green which is known as symbolic color of Islam. Then it says: Save your republic! Of course it's sarcastic and has many references but tells what I was trying to say about reputation of Arabic.
> 
> Even ezan which is ALWAYS in Arabic around the world, was once translated and sung(?) in pure Turkish and Arabic was officially banned. Atatürk thought Turks who believe in Islam should pray in their own language and be careful not to Arabize. Of course, most think it was disrespect to religion, so then they choosed not to offend people and unbanned Arabic.
> 
> In the "religious books" section of a bookstore in Turkey, you're likely to see the books named "PRAYING IN MOTHER TONGUE" and so on..
> 
> But there are still other kind of people. What about them, those Muslims in Turkey who read Koran in Arabic? Well, they learn the alphabet and some tricks or whatever, so they just read the letters! I tried to tell them that they should read it in Turkish if they want to understand what it says, they said they felt in in their hearths! It's not my business but theirs. It's fine by me!
> 
> I believe it's been a good answer. If you or anyone else has a question, please feel free to ask.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ekin


 

Tesekkur ederim, Chazzwozzer! That was really interesting! I have always found the situation in Turkey a bit peculiar. I suppose, it can be partly described with the saying: once bitten, twice shy. The Turkish authorities are so scared of radical Islamism that they carry things a bit too far, trying to quell any possible source of it. But, I suppose, whatever its frequent drawbacks in the way it is practised, attempting to suppress the religion which has belonged to a particular culture for centuries is just dangerous - it only breeds more fundamentalism. 
As for other countries, I don`t think that Arabic is so widespread among the ordinary population. It may be widely taught at schools, and languages may have a fair amount of loan words as well. In fields related to religion, this is especially overwhelming. I can speak for Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Iran, some African countries, Bangladesh. The further away you go or the more secular the countries have been , the less of it you get, I suppose. I am thinking of Central Asian republics, Chechnya...There is a strong and ardent revival movement there , however, which in the case of Uzbekistan, for example, results in terrible suppressions on the part of the government.


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## fatimaS

hello Everyone:
I thought that we are here to discuss linguistic and gramatical issues. with all respect to the cuestion it would have been nice if everyone spoke about the situation of the spoken arabic language but please ... dont lecture us about  all the efforts made to fight against arabic language and people or to erase anything that is related to them.


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## Chazzwozzer

Hi fatimaS,

Yes, we discuss languages here. This topic has been moved from Other Languages to Arabic section by a moderator. That means it's an appropirate topic to discuss. I also believe we all should be honest with our answers about Arabic in our country.

Since the starter of the topic wanted to know if Arabic is common in my country, I think I can tell the truth even if I find the truth awful! Should I fake anything? 

I re-read my message and found nothing that is out-of-topic except for my attempt to correct him for something that's in his post. I also know that I would have already been told if something were wrong with my message by a moderator.


Hi Setwale_Charm,

I'm glad you've found it interesting. I believe it represents an example of how languages can play a big role in social life.


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## fatimaS

Hi again: 
I didn´t ask you to fake anything.... and i still think that your answer was  concentrating on talking about the government´s trails to stop any usage of arabic language... 
regards


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## Chazzwozzer

fatimaS said:


> Hi again:
> I didn´t ask you to fake anything.... and i still think that your answer was  concentrating on talking about the government´s trails to stop any usage of arabic language...
> regards


Oh, got it. You mean these three sentences in my message which I was answering _"I know it must be used to read Koran."_ but I never said the government banned Arabic for any use. I said praying in a foreign language, Arabic, was banned.

The reason I pointed it out because BaraniskoDyskoteka says he knows Arabic is a must for Islam. Of course, I'm not going to discuss if it's a must or not. It's not my business after all.

Hope I could now made myself clear.


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## papillon

BaraniskoDyskoteka said:


> Arabic in Muslim countries...I know it must be used to read Koran.


If you're interested in this topic, you may find this recent thread http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=180890&highlight=Quranon the use of languages in the Mosque useful.


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## elroy

Hello all,

I can see how some might find comments about efforts to ban or prohibit Arabic unsettling, bothersome, or even offensive; however, in this context the information presented by Chazzwozer was appropriate. The question was about the extent to which Arabic is spoken in non-Arab countries with a large number of Moslems (to avoid the problematic "Moslem countries"); the fact that in Turkey efforts have been made by some organizations or groups to limit the use of Arabic is very relevant because I would assume that that has a direct impact on the number of Turkish people that end up learning Arabic. I do not see Chazzwozer's posts as an off-topic "lecture" on efforts to discourage the learning of Arabic, but rather a pertinent reply to the question with reference to a particular phenomenon that has significantly shaped the perception of the Arabic language in Turkey, and, as such, the number of Arabic speakers there.

Let's try to avoid being too emotional and instead focus on the big picture and the broader issues being discussed here. This thread is being observed very closely, and rest assured that offensive or off-topic comments will be dealt with appropriately. 

I look forward to an exciting and stimulating discussion.


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## Abu Bishr

Personally, I feel that the writer of the second post could have been a little more sensitive in handling the question, and I don't find it surprising if some people found it offensive including myself. Chazz could have answered: "Well, even though Turkey has a Muslim majority it is a secular state rather than a Muslim state" without using emotionally-charged language. Saying that many people feel offended if Turkey is called "Muslim" is offensive to Muslims because it suggests that there is something negative in something being called "Muslim" even if reference is only to government in this context. So let us respect both the Muslims and non-Muslims in the forum and write more appropriately.

Anyhow, my point on the issue of Arabic as a second language in these countries is that Arabic is mostly confined to an in-depth reading knowledge of Arabic for religious purposes. I know that in Turkey there are schools where students learn everything about Arabic (all its minutae & fine details) except how to speak it. The same applies to Pakistan, India, Iran, Somalia & even Indonesia. This obviously applies only to a very small percentage. Some of the best books written on Arabic grammar come from Turkey written by Turks some in Arabic & some in Turkish. The same can be said for Iran, India & Pakistan. It is always known that these students can't speak Arabic unless they make a special effort but even those who manage to develop some speaking proficiency are only isolated instances being more a case of individual brilliance rather than the norm.

Having said this I would assume that those inhabitants of these countries (Muslim or otherwise) who live on the border of neighbouring Arab countries should be able to speak Arabic if not fluently then to some extend. I believe this to be the case with Israelis living close to the borders of Lebanon or with Israeli-Arabs in Nothern Israel. Maybe Elroy can help us out here.


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## elroy

Abu Bishr said:


> Personally, I feel that the writer of the second post could have been a little more sensitive in handling the question, and I don't find it surprising if some people found it offensive including myself. Chazz could have answered: "Well, even though Turkey has a Muslim majority it is a secular state rather than a Muslim state" without using emotionally-charged language. Saying that many people feel offended if Turkey is called "Muslim" is offensive to Muslims because it suggests that there is something negative in something being called "Muslim" even if reference is only to government in this context. So let us respect both the Muslims and non-Muslims in the forum and write more appropriately.


 I am certain that Chazz meant no offense. He was not supporting the negative attitude he described; in fact, he used words like "sadly" which indicate that he is not exactly happy about this state of affairs. Nor do I see his contribution as "emotionally charged"; rather, I see it as a well-presented representation of a reality in Turkey. Sometimes issues come up that are disheartening; we should certainly not censor them, as long as they are discussed reasonably and respectfully. In fact, I have learned something new from Chazz's contribution; I had no idea that the Arabic language was viewed so negatively in Turkey. Once again, I wish to insist that it is acceptable to _discuss_ any type of attitude or position, as long as we do not _attack_ other members. 


> I believe this to be the case with Israelis living close to the borders of Lebanon or with Israeli-Arabs in Nothern Israel. Maybe Elroy can help us out here.


 It would be helpful if you explained who you were referring to by "Israelis living close to the borders of Lebanon." Are you referring to Israeli Jews whose native language is not Arabic? Israeli Arabs, like me, are native Arabs whose first language is Arabic so obviously we speak Arabic. As for other Israelis, I highly doubt that there are too many of them who speak Arabic because of the closeness to the border with Lebanon. As you must know, the border with Lebanon is closed and there is no movement between Israel and Lebanon (the same goes for Syria). Furthermore, there are about a million Arab citizens of Israel who live in the same country as non-Arab Israelis, but the percentage of non-Arab Israelis who speak Arabic is still relatively low - primarily because there is little to no interaction between Arabs and non-Arabs. Anyway, this discussion is a little beyond the scope of this thread because Israel is not a Moslem country, nor is the majority of the population Moslem. It would be interesting to have a thread dedicated to the particular issue of how widely spoken Arabic is among non-Arab Israelis.


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## Chazzwozzer

Abu Bishr said:


> Personally, I feel that the writer of the second post could have been a little more sensitive in handling the question, and I don't find it surprising if some people found it offensive including myself. Chazz could have answered: "Well, even though Turkey has a Muslim majority it is a secular state rather than a Muslim state" without using emotionally-charged language. Saying that many people feel offended if Turkey is called "Muslim" is offensive to Muslims because it suggests that there is something negative in something being called "Muslim" even if reference is only to government in this context. So let us respect both the Muslims and non-Muslims in the forum and write more appropriately.



I didn't mean to hurt people's feelings. I am _very_ sorry to hear that you are offended, but please know that it was not my intention to meany any offence.



Abu Bishr said:


> Anyhow, my point on the issue of Arabic as a second language in these countries is that Arabic is mostly confined to an in-depth reading knowledge of Arabic for religious purposes. I know that in Turkey there are schools where students learn everything about Arabic (all its minutae & fine details) except how to speak it.



Another awful truth is, we have some ignorant people here who think Kuran is in "Kuran Language" and Arabic alphabet is something called "Kuran Alphabet," not a spoken language.

Just a couple of days ago, I was trying to inform one of that kind of friend of mine that Arabic is a perfectly spoken language in Arabic countries and Kuran was written in this language, which means they had already spoken the language before Kuran was written. I told him letters in Kuran don't represent any other language but Arabic. It's what Arabs speak. Even worse, he thought they only speak "Kuran Language" in Iran because Iran is an Islamic country. I simply told him Persian is what they speak and he insisted that Persian is an extinct language that was written in "Kuran alphabet"

It's ignorance. I accept big majority are ignorant. I'm asahemed of telling this.

Like you said, there are schools where people can learn Arabic but they are called "imam hatips" that aim to satisfy the need of imams for Muslims in the country. These schools are controversial and one of the hittest topic around here. And yes, they only learn to read religious texts in Arabic, not speaking or writing.



Abu Bishr said:


> Some of the best books written on Arabic grammar come from Turkey written by Turks some in Arabic & some in Turkish.



I'm glad to hear that. Is it written by Yaşar Nuri Öztürk? He's the best Islam scholar in this country, who also knows Arabic and translates religious texts into Turkish.

And this guy, Ömer Çelaklıl, who claims that he broke the code of Kuran, can understand Kuran in Arabic. Maybe he can speak too, he's a wise guy.



elroy said:


> I am certain that Chazz meant no offense. He was not supporting the negative attitude he described; in fact, he used words like "sadly" which indicate that he is not exactly happy about this state of affairs. Nor do I see his contribution as "emotionally charged"; rather, I see it as a well-presented representation of a reality in Turkey.


Thank you elroy. Like I said, I find it awful. It's simply ignorance of people, which I'm ashamed of.



elroy said:


> Sometimes issues come up that are disheartening; we should certainly not censor them, as long as they are discussed reasonably and respectfully. In fact, I have learned something new from Chazz's contribution; I had no idea that the Arabic language was viewed so negatively in Turkey. Once again, I wish to insist that it is acceptable to _discuss_ any type of attitude or position, as long as we do not _attack_ other members.


I like observing people's attitude towards world culture and languages in my country. Arabic  actually is a positive language for conservatives, however, they only use this language for religious purposes and it's what makes it look like a threat to secularists, especially ignorant ones. I hate it when people use a language in politics to represent something, which it does not.

By the way, I must say that everything I've written are my personal observations and the reality I see, not that they are my personal ideas or things I support.


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

Baranisko:

To get back to your original question, in Somalia up until fairly recently (the 1960's) there was no way to write the local language. If you were literate, you were literate in Arabic, unless you were literate in English or (more likely) Italian.

Most white collar types over 40 speak Arabic, or at least they used to. My information is somewhat out of date. The same is generally true in Djibouti, which of course was former French Somaliland. 

My impression in Somalia and Djibouti was that the local population certainly had no prejudice against using Arabic, and in fact preferred it and were gratified when a westerner spoke Arabic with them rather than a European language.

In general, when you're dealing with African nations with a large Muslim population and a long Muslim tradition, Arabic was the only written tradition until the imperial era.


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## Anatoli

Thomas F. O'Gara said:


> Baranisko:
> 
> To get back to your original question, in Somalia up until fairly recently (the 1960's) there was no way to write the local language. If you were literate, you were literate in Arabic, unless you were literate in English or (more likely) Italian.
> 
> Most white collar types over 40 speak Arabic, or at least they used to. My information is somewhat out of date. The same is generally true in Djibouti, which of course was former French Somaliland.
> 
> My impression in Somalia and Djibouti was that the local population certainly had no prejudice against using Arabic, and in fact preferred it and were gratified when a westerner spoke Arabic with them rather than a European language.
> 
> In general, when you're dealing with African nations with a large Muslim population and a long Muslim tradition, Arabic was the only written tradition until the imperial era.


Is Arabic taught and used in the media these days in *Somalia, Djibouti, Eritrea and Mali* - these countries are sometimes listed as Arabic speaking (partially) and some are part of the Arabian league but I am not sure how important Arabic is in these countries today? I also read an opinion that in countries where Arabic is not official, the dialects are too different from other Arabic dialects and MSA.


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

Anatoli:

It could very well be that Arabic is less common in Somalia than it once was.  I was on the ground there primarily in the 1980's, so my information is dated.

And they certainly had their own rather eccentric dialect of Arabic, although I found it easier to understand than the hill people in Yemen.


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## suma

Chazzwozzer said:


> Well, I'll be honest and speaking frankly...
> 
> Cheers,
> Ekin


 
Yes I figured as well that Arabic was not widely spoken in Turkey nor very popular. you just confirmed that.


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## suma

I've heard that in Senegal (with over 90% Muslim population going back many centuries) there is 1 or maybe more locally written, produced, and edited Arabic language journal/magazine. And at university there is albeit diminishing curriculae all via Arabic.

Can anyone confirm this?


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## Josh_

That is too bad about Arabic in Turkey. Of course, I don't know about the whole country or the general feeling, but I do remember that when I was in Istanbul I stayed at a hotel next to the Blue Mosque, and this was my first experience with hearing the adhaan which was broadcast over loudspeakers in Arabic. Also, the staff that I interacted with at the hotel knew some words in Arabic, but I can't be sure how much as I did not speak Arabic at that time.  I figured that they must know some Arabic because of their Islamic faith.  I never got the impression that Arabic was "lingua non grata" in the country.  It's just not spoken much since Turkish in the official language

I also wanted to comment on Turkey as a secular country and people being offended at it being described as a Muslim country.  I can see how a devout Muslim would get offended by that, but we must remember that, while Turkey is a Muslim country in terms of the main religion, many are lapsed Muslims, or only participate in the major functions.  One of the employees at the hotel I stayed at told me that he only prays once a week, and that many of the people he knows are the same way.  So for many there, their outlook on Islam is different than Muslims from Arab countres.  We also must remember that Turkey is actively trying to join the European Union, and so the government distancing itself from Islam, and other forms of religion, plays a part in that.


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## Chazzwozzer

Hi Josh,



Josh Adkins said:


> That is too bad about Arabic in Turkey. Of course, I don't know about the whole country or the general feeling, but I do remember that when I was in Istanbul I stayed at a hotel next to the Blue Mosque, and this was my first experience with hearing the adhaan which was broadcast over loudspeakers in Arabic. Also, the staff that I interacted with at the hotel knew some words in Arabic, but I can't be sure how much as I did not speak Arabic at that time.  I figured that they must know some Arabic because of their Islamic faith.  I never got the impression that Arabic was "lingua non grata" in the country.


Since the time Ezan/Adhaan in Arabic was unbanned, this issue has sometimes come up in the media. Some Muslims say it has to be in Turkish so that everybody can understand, some Muslims and secularists think ezan must be mute because it may annoy non-Muslims and some believe it's OK to hear it in Arabic and loudvoice.

Hotel staff must be multilingual and know some useful phrases in many languages. I don't know if they could speak Arabic, but it's possible they knew some words and phrases. For two main reasons: 1) Arabic loanwords 2) Praying in Arabic



Josh Adkins said:


> It's just not spoken much since Turkish in the official language


Well, Turkish has always been in the official language for hundred years. 




Josh Adkins said:


> I also wanted to comment on Turkey as a secular country and people being offended at it being described as a Muslim country.  I can see how a devout Muslim would get offended by that, but we must remember that, while Turkey is a Muslim country in terms of the main religion, many are lapsed Muslims, or only participate in the major functions.  One of the employees at the hotel I stayed at told me that he only prays once a week, and that many of the people he knows are the same way.  So for many there, their outlook on Islam is different than Muslims from Arab countres.  We also must remember that Turkey is actively trying to join the European Union, and so the government distancing itself from Islam, and other forms of religion, plays a part in that.


He prays a one a week? Well, he's religious in the sense of typical Turkish Islam.  I'd like to reply to your comment, but it might be out-of-topic. So you may want to check this out. 

Cheers,
Ekin


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## Josh_

> Since the time Ezan/Adhaan in Arabic was unbanned, this issue has sometimes come up in the media. Some Muslims say it has to be in Turkish so that everybody can understand, some Muslims and secularists think ezan must be mute because it may annoy non-Muslims and some believe it's OK to hear it in Arabic and loudvoice.
> 
> Hotel staff must be multilingual and know some useful phrases in many languages. I don't know if they could speak Arabic, but it's possible they knew some words and phrases. For two main reasons: 1) Arabic loanwords 2) Praying in Arabic


Yes, I agree. That is what I figured.



> Well, Turkish has always been in the official language for hundred years.


That was my point. Why would the Turkish people want to speak Arabic when they have their own language? 



> He prays a one a week? Well, he's religious in the sense of typical Turkish Islam.  I'd like to reply to your comment, but it might be out-of-topic. So you may want to check this out.


Thanks for the link. Very interesting. That expresses my point. People see religion differently, so we should try not to be offended, but rather try to see the other person's point of view. And then we can understand (as best as we can) why they think the way they do, even if we disagree with it.


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## Chazzwozzer

Josh Adkins said:


> That was my point. Why would the Turkish people want to speak Arabic when they have their own language?



Oh, I got it wrong. My bad. I thought you said "since the time Turkish has become official...," not "because Turkish is official.." Sorry. 

I'm looking forward to hearing from the people of other countries with vast Muslim community. How about in Iran?


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## Alijsh

BaraniskoDyskoteka said:


> Arabic in Muslim countries...
> Is it common to speak Arabic as second language in countries like: Turkey, Iran, Afganistan, Somalia ?
> how many there know Arabic?
> I know it must be used to read Koran.


As for Iran, English and classical Arabic are compulsory in schools from grade 6 to grade 11 (English until grade 12) but nobody can speak it. We just learn it superficially to pass the exams and go to the higher grade and after that it's forgotten. It has no other use for the majority of us. At the end of the day, we just know to read Koran correctly.

In Iran we have people of different ethnic groups including Arab. We have Iranian Arabs who of course natively speak Arabic but they'll speak in Persian with non-Arabs because we don't know Arabic (they're mostly bilingual). When I was passing soldiering I had Iranian Arab friends and we spoke in Persian although I used this opportunity to learn some colloquial Arabic terms


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## WadiH

People from the Iskandarun region in southern Turkey (around Antioch) often speak Arabic with a Turkish accent, but most of these people are of Arab descent.


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## elroy

*Moderator Note*: The topic of this thread is not the Ottoman Empire, and what languages were spoken or were official then, but the use of Arabic *today* in non-Arab countries with a large number of Moslems.  Please stick to the topic.


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## MarcB

This article speaks of the Arabic literary tradition in Nigeria, and Arab countries that send teachers and offer scholarships for Nigerian students and more.


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## Frank06

Hi,
It's probably a bit of second hand information, but in the five years of dealing with muslims from various non-Arab countries on a daily basis, I haven't met a single one who could speak Arabic. I use the word 'regions' too, because I already met a lot of _older_ Moroccan Berber speaking women who don't know Arabic either(!). Most of these women come from small mountain villages and never went to school in their home country.
Though I don't dare nor want to generalise at all, I still have to meet* the first Turk, Iranian**, Chechnian, Kurd, Pakistani, Indonesian, Bengali, Azeri, Afghani (whether they speak Pashto or Farsi or...) etc. etc. etc. who also actually speaks Arabic.

Groetjes,

Frank

* I mean at the place where I work, not on a message board like this .
**As Alijsh already mentioned, there are Iranians whose mothertongue is Arabic. I mean all the other ones.


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## MarcB

Frank,
I am sure you are right regarding the people you have met since the arabic speakers in non-Arab countries are a minority. As mentioned in some countries there are native small pockets of Arabic mother tongue speakers. Most non-Arabs who speak Arabic in these countries are scholars not the general population.


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## elroy

MarcB said:


> As mentioned in some countries there are native small pockets of Arabic mother tongue speakers.


 But the topic of this thread is the use of Arabic as a _second language_ in non-Arab countries with many Moslems. 


> Most non-Arabs in these countries are scholars not the general population.


 I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that most non-Arabs who speak Arabic as a second language in these countries are scholars? If so, that sounds plausible.


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## Alijsh

elroy said:


> But the topic of this thread is the use of Arabic as a _second language_ in non-Arab countries with many Moslems.  I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that most non-Arabs who speak Arabic as a second language in these countries are scholars? If so, that sounds plausible.


The second language in Iran is Azeri Turkish.


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## elroy

Alijsh said:


> The second language in Iran is Azeri Turkish.


 I was referring to individuals - although I should have probably said "foreign language" anyway to avoid confusion.

I meant Iranians who speak Arabic as a foreign language, whether it be their second or their fourteenth.


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## Alijsh

elroy said:


> I was referring to individuals - although I should have probably said "foreign language" anyway to avoid confusion.
> 
> I meant Iranians who speak Arabic as a foreign language, whether it be their second or their fourteenth.


The topic says "Arabic as a second language in non-Arab countries". I wanted to say it's not as a second language in Iran. I mistakenly quoted your post. Sorry.

Well, I have never met an individual (of course non-Arab) who can speak Arabic. In any case, I know they are few. Among scholars, I say those in the field of Islamic sciences and to a lesser extent, in literature, philosophy, law, etc. that are somehow related to Islam. However, generally speaking, I don't think they are able to speak (they don't primarily learn Arabic for speaking) although they know Arabic grammer in an advanced level.


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## min300

Hi everyone,

Arabic is not the second or even the third foreign language in Iran. I myself have never seen an Iranian who can speak or at least understand Arabic, whereas there are many Iranian who can speak Turkish,English,French or German. I think maybe this is because of the way they teach us Arabic at schools( maybe the teaching methods). But I wish I had learned  Arabic in a more practical way at school.


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## YOUNG SALIH

I don't know about other countries like Turkey and Iran but in Somalia it is spoken as a second language. So it's widely understood. But initially most of the people learnt the language for religious reasons ie understanding the Quran and being able to read books from ulama etc.


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## WadiH

YOUNG SALIH said:


> i dont know about other countries like turkey and iran but in somalia it is spoken as a second language. so its widely understood. but initially most of the people learnt the language for religious reasons ie understanding the quran and being able to read books from ulama etc


 
Yes I've met an Ethiopian who spoke Arabic as a second language.  He said he learned it from Arabic-speakers in his area of Ethiopia.


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## panjabigator

I don't believe there has been a post on South Asia so I'll contribute some.  Arabic is learned by Muslims in South Asia, however it is taught by Maulvis who just teach the Qu'ran.  I don't believe there is a high population of Indian Muslims who are proficient in Arabic as a spoken language.  Most though, I presume, can read the Qu'ran.

I can only guess that the same is true of Pakistan.  There is probably more of an effort to learn the language but I doubt people become highly proficient in it.


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## Abu Rashid

As Pakistan is a country which uses the Arabic script, I'd think their ability to read the Qur'an would be quite good to begin with. So any Arabic lessons they take on top of that would be a bonus for them. Most Pakistanis I know have a good understanding of Arabic words (as many words in Urdu are derived from Arabic anyway) but they don't have knowledge of grammar, or even how to form those words into a sentence, so they can often glean the meaning of a sentence, but not always. The Imam of my local Mosque is Pakistani, and he's quite proficent, but I'm assuming he studied Arabic specifically.


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## Ibn_Sultan

I'm Somali, and I've seen people asking about how many people talk Arabic in Somalia, etc. 

First you have to know that all Somalis talk Somali as a first language, although it used to be Arabic.

There are two main tribes that are decendants of Arabs, which are Darod (or the official name Bani Dawud) and the Ishaaq..These were two Shaykhs from the Arabian Peninsula and were from the Tribe of the Prophet Muhammad Saws, [Bani Haashim].

*Note: *The Horn of Africa was already a Muslim area when they came, but they brough Arabizm with them.

My ancesstor [Darod] came to Somalia for either religious or financial reasons and married a chieftan of the Dir tribe (also one of the main Somali tribes, not mixed with Arabs).

and yes, there was a time in where Arabic was our first language, but then it dissappeared, and now our language is Italian, Arabic, African mixed language. But Arabic is still [the most] important language of Somalia, without Somali you can still go to school, university, hospitals you can work and live there. But without Arabic, you cant go to school, or a university as its in Arabic. 

I would estimate that 90% or even more of Somalia know Arabic, the 10% that doesnt know Arabic are the Bantu Africans that live in the forests and dont even go to school. Why is Somalia part of the Arab Union while Arabic is not our first language? Because of our common history (Bani Hashim), and the effect of the Arabic culture on Somalia, all Somalis watch MBC and Al-Jazeera, and the amount of Arab (especially Egyptian) teachers had also a postive affect on the Arabization of Somalia. Arabic is studied for Islam but not only as there are people who dont even pray and are very good in Arabic, other reasons are economically or culturally etc.

But since the start of the Civil war, Arabization went down the hill, schools were destroyed along with universities, so the level of Arabic didnt go up as its supposed to. there was less Arabic media, as stores, cafes, tvs etc. were destroyed. Even electricity stopped working in some areas.

As for the Future of Arabization I believe it can go two ways, if the Ethiopian backed goverment wins the war, Arabization will decline (as the Ethiopians already banned the Arabic language in some schools) and if the Islamic Resistance wins I see an increase in the level of the Arabic language in Somalia.


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## kifaru

In reference to Somalia as well as, Niger, Mali and Cameroon all these countries have a history of writing the indigenous language as well as arabic using arabic orthography.


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## إسكندراني

This is a very old thread but an interesting one so I hope we can revive it and learn something new.

since it has not been mentioned, Juba Arabic is a second language for most south sudanese and the lingua franca there. I imagine parts of chad are quite similar, their arabic dialect being a second language for some who belong to tribes.

I am quite surprised at the claim that 90% of Somalians speak Arabic. I would have thought it was lower than that.


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## tounsi51

إسكندراني said:


> This is a very old thread but an interesting one so I hope we can revive it and learn something new.
> 
> since it has not been mentioned, Juba Arabic is a second language for most south sudanese and the lingua franca there. I imagine parts of chad are quite similar, their arabic dialect being a second language for some who belong to tribes.
> 
> I am quite surprised at the claim that 90% of Somalians speak Arabic. I would have thought it was lower than that.



I have doubt also as 50% of the population should be women as well, so I don't think that 100% of Somali women can speak Arabic.
There are a big community of Somalis in the UAE and most of them don't speak Arabic but Somali. they own language and they just learnt Egyptian or mixing some Arabic dialects to be able to speak.


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## Hemza

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Yes I've met an Ethiopian who spoke Arabic as a second language.  He said he learned it from Arabic-speakers in his area of Ethiopia.



That's not surprising. I don't know about Ethiopia, but I know that in Erythrea (which was part of Ethiopia before its creation) there are descendants of some Hijazi tribes who still speak Hijazi Arabic. May be, this Ethiopian could have been in contact with descendants of Arabs who settled there?


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