# ようにして



## John_Doe

I'd like to confirm if  I understand how ようにして works correctly. If I got something wrong, feel free to correct me.

The only explanation I've found so far is 「実際にそうするのではないが、そのような気き持もちで」、または「ちょっとそのような動作をしながら本来の動作をする」と言たいときの表現。 So in other words ようにして indicates manner or something like "with some objective in mind", "trying to do something".

Now, to examples.

1. 入り口辺りで、所在なさげに踏みとどまっていた戦場ヶ原の、手首を握るようにして、僕は彼女を導いた。

It's a manner. "I lead/ushered her, holding her by her hand". Is 手首を握るようにして somehow different from 手首を握って僕は彼女を導いた or 手首を握りながら?

2. 少女はそして、まるでリノリウムの床の上を滑るようにして歩み去っていく。

滑るようにして shows how the action of going away was done, but does 滑るように歩み去っていく mean the same thing?

3. 彼らの視線から逃げるようにして、ぼくはそそくさと車の助手席に乗り込んだ。

逃げるようにして falls into the "実際にそうするのではないが、そのような気き持もちで" category. "I hastily got into the passenger seat to avoid their gazes" (=implying they already noticed him). But it wasn't his primary objective, because he need to get into the car anyway. If he said 彼らの視線から逃げるようにぼくはそそくさと車の助手席に乗り込んだ, that would mean he sat into the car with the sole purpose to get out of their sight.

4. 例によって祖母があれこれと差し入れを持ってきてくれて、「じゃああした、また来るからねえ」という決まり文句を残して帰っていった。それとほとんど入れ違うようにして、だった。まったく予想も想像もしていなかった見舞い客がやってきたのだ。

I don't understand it. ようにして --- ように --- as if?


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## karlalou

John_Doe said:


> 1. 入り口辺りで、所在なさげに踏みとどまっていた戦場ヶ原の、手首を握るようにして、僕は彼女を導いた。
> It's a manner. "I lead/ushered her, holding her by her hand". Is 手首を握るようにして somehow different from 手首を握って僕は彼女を導いた or 手首を握りながら?


I have seen this kind of expression several times before and wondered myself about it because if it means 握るように見せかけて握っていない that sounds wired to me. I wondered if it's normal thing to do for some people? I think it can be "trying to do something". I found the definition in an online dictionary it says "*４* （多く「ように」の形で）ある動作・作用の目的・目標である意を表す。「わかりやすくなる*ように*並べかえましょう」"
So it's actually _なるべく_握るようにして, isn't it?



> 2. 少女はそして、まるでリノリウムの床の上を滑るようにして歩み去っていく。
> 滑るようにして shows how the action of going away was done, but does 滑るように歩み去っていく mean the same thing?


I guess the writer wanted to say she walked away without making any noise and so smoothly and rapidly. Is she actually a fairly or something, I wonder.. I wonder if these are a kind of rhetoric..



> 3. 彼らの視線から逃げるようにして、ぼくはそそくさと車の助手席に乗り込んだ。
> 逃げるようにして falls into the "実際にそうするのではないが、そのような気き持もちで" category. "I hastily got into the passenger seat to avoid their gazes" (=implying they already noticed him). But it wasn't his primary objective, because he need to get into the car anyway. If he said 彼らの視線から逃げるようにぼくはそそくさと車の助手席に乗り込んだ, that would mean he sat into the car with the sole purpose to get out of their sight.


They can be feeling like trying to escape from something, but it can be just _まるで_逃げるようにそそくさと、まるで人目を避けるようにこっそりと、実は別にそんな必要もないのに. The writer is trying to make the mood, I guess. But I wonder these may be an old-time favored style but now just an old cliché..



> 4. 例によって祖母があれこれと差し入れを持ってきてくれて、「じゃああした、また来るからねえ」という決まり文句を残して帰っていった。それとほとんど入れ違うようにして、だった。まったく予想も想像もしていなかった見舞い客がやってきたのだ。
> I don't understand it. ようにして --- ように --- as if?


I think this just simply mean それとほとんど入れ違いに. So ようにして maybe just this author's mannerism.


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## John_Doe

karlalou said:


> I have seen this kind of expression several times before and wondered myself about it because if it means 握るように見せかけて握っていない that sounds wired to me. I wondered if it's normal thing to do for some people? I think it can be "trying to do something". I found the definition in an online dictionary it says "*４* （多く「ように」の形で）ある動作・作用の目的・目標である意を表す。「わかりやすくなる*ように*並べかえましょう」"



Not sure if I'm following you here. Basically, you are saying 1) it's a rarely used/unusual pattern, 2) ようにして can be reduced to just ように, am I right? However, I disagree with the latter.  *ように *in わかりやすくなる*ように*並べかえましょう clearly indicates purpose ("let's rearrange it so that it would be more understandable"), when the purpose in 手首を握るようにして、僕は彼女を導いた is to lead the girl to a certain destination, not clasp her arm tightly or something of that kind.

Or maybe there are two separate facts?
1. 手首を握るようにする (making sure to take her hand; exerting an extra effort to do that). However, I thought that ようにする and ようにして are different patterns.
2. 彼女を導く



> I guess the writer wanted to say she walked away without making any noise and so smoothly and rapidly. Is she actually a fairly or something, I wonder.. I wonder if these are a kind of rhetoric..



I understand that it's a metaphor. I just asked if 滑るようにして and 滑るように interchangeable. Are they?



> I think this just simply mean それとほとんど入れ違いに. So ようにして maybe just this author's mannerism.


As for ほとんど、 does it mean that 祖母 and 客 actually saw each other/run into each other, after all?


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## karlalou

> Not sure if I'm following you here. Basically, you are saying 1) it's a rarely used/unusual pattern, 2) ようにして can be reduced to just ように, am I right? However, I disagree with the latter.  *ように *in わかりやすくなる*ように*並べかえましょう clearly indicates purpose ("let's rearrange it so that it would be more understandable"), when the purpose in 手首を握るようにして、僕は彼女を導いた is to lead the girl to a certain destination, not clasp her arm tightly or something of that kind.
> 
> Or maybe there are two separate facts?
> 1. 手首を握るようにする (making sure to take her hand; exerting an extra effort to do that). However, I thought that ようにする and ようにして are different patterns.
> 2. 彼女を導く



「わかりやすくなる*ように*並べかえましょう」is just an example sentence on the dictionary page. I meant to show you the definition of it, *ある動作・作用の目的・目標である意を表す*. It's just as the same as what you brought up, "*trying to do something*", so I said it's actually _なるべく_握るようにして, isn't it? Because it's more natural to me than 握るように見せかけて握っていない, which means that he made it looks like holding her arm but actually not.

I meant to say there are two possibilities what 手首を握るようにして trying to say, but either way this phrase is modifying '彼女を導く'.




> I understand that it's a metaphor. I just asked if 滑るようにして and 滑るように interchangeable. Are they?


Yes, 滑るようにして and 滑るように means the same to me.



> As for ほとんど、 does it mean that 祖母 and 客 actually saw each other/run into each other, after all?


It does not necessarily mean they met each other.


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## Shiratori99

I think it describes a course of action here: "So... that."

手首を握る*ようにして*、僕は彼女を導いた = I held her by the hand, *so that* I could lead her the way = I held her by the hand and lead her the way


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## karlalou

Shiratori99 said:


> I think it describes a course of action here: "So... that."
> 
> 手首を握る*ようにして*、僕は彼女を導いた = I held her by the hand, *so that* I could lead her the way = I held her by the hand and lead her the way



I agree that it's just very reasonable.

I think this writing is being poetic. 


> 入り口辺りで、所在なさげに踏みとどまっていた戦場ヶ原の、手首を握るようにして、僕は彼女を導いた。


If this sentence doesn't have any typo then it's poetic.
Usually us readers don't pay attention to such a detail even if it's unusual way of saying. The feeling, the atmosphere is more important, so.

手首を握るようにして surely sounds more indirect and poetic than 手首を握って.

It's beyond me to explain it further..


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## John_Doe

Shiratori99 said:


> I think it describes a course of action here: "So... that."
> 
> 手首を握る*ようにして*、僕は彼女を導いた = I held her by the hand, *so that* I could lead her the way = I held her by the hand and lead her the way



I can't agree with you. It's ように that means "so that" (the sentence structure is reversed, by the way), when ようにして is clearly different. Your translation were right if the sentence was 僕は彼女を導くように手首を握った.

1. 手首を握るようにして、僕は彼女を導いた。(He clasped her hand and (started to) lead her). Two actions were done, and he hold her hand all the way.

2. 僕は彼女を導くように手首を握った (He clasped her so that he could lead her, but he is only about to do that. He hadn't done it yet). One action is done, and another is about to happen.
It's basically what you said, but that's just a different grammar pattern.


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## frequency

John_Doe said:


> ようにして --- ように --- as if?


John_Doe, yes in all yours 1-4, they all are 'as if'. ようにして explains how a thing occurs, but the actors don't do the actions. For example, in 1, the boy didn't take her wrist, but could lead her.
Are you sure how he led her? How did he use his hand for her? I suppose that he reached his hand near to her wrist but didn't touch it. The girl saw his hand near to the wrist but could make sure that he was acting as if he led her.

By the way, ようにして is different to ように.


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## John_Doe

frequency said:


> I suppose that he reached his hand near to her wrist* but didn't touch it.*


Doesn't make any sense for me. Just imagine how awkward it would look. For what it's worth, in the anime version he did grasped and hold her by her hand all the way in that scene. AFAIK, that building was dilapidated and pretty dark, so it was only natural that he did so.

QUOTE="frequency, post: 15284590, member: 30380"]By the way, ようにして is different to ように.[/QUOTE]
I said as much in my previous post.


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## frequency

John_Doe said:


> Just imagine how awkward it would look.


Yes that's the point. That mysterious and vague expression, 手首を握るようにして, could convey kind of a romantic mood.

Right now I can say that in the anime version the boy decides to grasp and hold her hand: that might have been intentions by the anime creators and directors. It is not rare that a story becomes different to the original in the anime version.
Don't forget 手首を握るようにして doesn't suggest that he really touched her wrist.


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## John_Doe

Did you read karlalou's posts, especially #2? He said there are two ways to interpret it.



frequency said:


> a romantic mood.


I'd say, it's a "a creepy boy is trying to touch a girl but too bashful to do that" mood. Sort of uncharacteristic of him, actually.

Anyway, what's your opinion on these ones?



> そこでは、*膝ひざを抱えるようにして*、小さな女の子、学習塾というこの場においてさえ不似合いなくらいの小さな、八歳くらいに見える、ヘルメットにゴーグルの、肌の白い金髪の女の子が、膝を抱えて、体育座りをしていた。



A real action, isn't? The author even repeats this clause twice.



> 僕は、とても年頃の女の子の部屋とは思えない、殺風景さっぷうけいな六畳間をぐるりと見、それから、*背後の小さな衣装箪笥だんすにもたれるようにして*── 先刻の、忍野の言葉を、回想した。



Creating a romantic mood with a chest of drawers, I guess? Seriously, it would be strange to assume he wasn't leaning against it. If he wasn't, why in the world would he even be there in that position?


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## frequency

John_Doe said:


> "a creepy boy is trying to touch a girl but too bashful to do that" mood.


Oh lol good!



John_Doe said:


> そこでは、*膝ひざを抱えるようにして*、小さな女の子、学習塾というこの場においてさえ不似合いなくらいの小さな、八歳くらいに見える、ヘルメットにゴーグルの、肌の白い金髪の女の子が、*膝を抱えて*、体育座りをしていた。


膝ひざを抱えるようにして*=*looked as if she was doing so
膝を抱えて= the thing actually happened
John_Doe, why does that sentence contain these two? Did she hold her knees or not? It's very sorry to say that I suppose the writer has forgotten deleting either. See the writer has written 女の子 twice in it. I guess he was in a hurry.

Most cases of ようにして suggest an unlikely event or action, but important is _looks_ as if.



John_Doe said:


> Creating a romantic mood with a chest of drawers, I guess? Seriously, it would be strange to assume he wasn't leaning against it. If he wasn't, why in the world would he even be there in that position?


I agree with you in creating a romantic mood―serious mood. He wants to recall the words and feels like to lean on the chest of drawers because he may need his time. You John_Doe take a look at him: he _looks_ as if he wanted to lean on it.


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## John_Doe

I understood your point, but it's hard for me to adapt a way of thinking (or at least, a way of wording) like that. What just bugs me is the word "looks". He describes his own posture as if it was someone else's, like he's doing it for some observer. I'd just said that "I stood by a small dresser (so close that) I was almost leaning on it", "I lead her, our hands almost touching each other", etc. Oh, "almost" works great for me. *Frequency*, what do you think: is it a good way to translate ようにして into English?


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## John_Doe

> John_Doe, why does that sentence contain these two? Did she hold her knees or not? It's very sorry to say that I suppose the writer has forgotten deleting either. See the writer has written 女の子 twice in it. I guess he was in a hurry.


Even if he's forgotten to delete these words, his editor shouldn't have. Anyway, it's a too naive explanation. I'd rather say, it's just a quite peculiar writing style of Nisio Isin in action. The author likes repeating himself, each repeation is more wordy than previous.

1. そこでは、膝ひざを抱えるようにして、小さな女の子
2. 学習塾というこの場においてさえ不似合いなくらいの小さな、八歳くらいに見える、ヘルメットにゴーグルの、肌の白い金髪の女の子

See? So if you right about "looking as if", it's gradual unfolding of what was happening with ever increasing detalization: 1) She looks like she's embracing her knees, 2) (closer shot) no, she is really doing it, etc.


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## frequency

John_Doe said:


> "I stood by a small dresser (so close that) I was almost leaning on it", "I lead her, our hands almost touching each other", etc. Oh, "almost" works great for me.


Good! I agree with you!


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## frequency

John_Doe said:


> See? So if you right about "looking as if", it's gradual unfolding of what was happening with ever increasing detalization: 1) She looks like she's embracing her knees, 2) (closer shot) no, she is really doing it, etc.


Ahh..the writer intends to give a certain effect as you said in 1) and 2), allowing a reader to select either loosely and randomly. Note that this is my impression


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