# Persian/Turkish: similarities and differences



## badgrammar

Hi Tisia and Bienvenidos,  

I am curious...  It looks to me like Farsi is an agglutinative language (?) that uses morphemes or suffixes.  I see words like "darum" "giruftun", and I was wondering what the infinitive forms of the verbs are?  

In Turkish, I think "I took the book" would be "kitabi ald?m", so you use the verb "almak", you take the stem al-, and then add the 1st person past definite suffix -im.  The simple present tense would be "al?r?m" (with undotted i's), the continuous present "al?yorum".  So you always use the stem and add morphemes.  

My next question is does Farsi function in the same way, and is vowel harmony used?  It looks to be the case, as I see giriftUm, darAm, borAm.  I Turkish you would see okudUm (I read), yedIm, etc....  I am trying to think of an example where vowel harmony would lead to an -am suffix, but I cannot think of any now! Anyway, the vowels change, and I wonder if it is the same in Persian and in Afghan Farsi?

The morpheme -i seems to work the same as in PErsian, other morphemes include -da/-de (in), -dan/den (from), -a/-e (to).  So my final question is does Farsi also function this way, in terms of using morphemes in a prepositional way? 

Saludos!

P.S.  Please forgive errors in my Turkish, my level is quite low but I'm trying to learn!  And correct any errors!


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## Tisia

Hi goodgrammer

You could say Persian is an agglutinative language since it has alot of those words that are made of combined elements especially the verbs like *dust dashtan* (to love), *tamiz kardan* (to clean). The infinitive form of *daram*(I have) is *dashtan*(to have) and for *bordam*(I took) is *bordan* (to take) or *gereftam*(I took or I bought) if *gereftan*(to take or to buy).
As you see all the endings in the ínfinitive form end in *en. *When you conjugate them it goes like this for present tense:

*Gereftan (to take):* mi+gir+subject suffix (mi shows it is in present tense, gir is the stem noun of the verb and Subject suffix or harmony is showing the person we are talking about: I , you.....)

Man *migir*am= I take
To *migir*i= You take
Oo *migir*ad= She/ He takes
Ma *migir*im= We take
Shoma *migir*id= You (plural) take
Anha *migir*and= they take

These are almost the same in both Iranian and Afghan farsi. Bienvenido could tell you that 
There are of course exceptions and I don't think you want to know them at the moment 

In answer to the last question: dar or tu (in or at), az(from), be(h)(to).
Dar class or tu-ye class (in the class)
Az khoneh (from home)
Be madreseh(to school)

Glad to answer you questions and ....
....regards
Tisia


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## badgrammar

Hi again, thanks for your answers! Now I see similarities, but also specific differences.  Take for example the agglutinative nature of the languages, and your example:

Dar class or tu-ye class (in the class)
Az khoneh (from home)
Be madreseh(to school)

In Turkish these prepositions become part of the word: 
okulda - in school
okulden - from home
okula - to school

(Again sorry if I make mistakes with Turkish!)

One more little question though that you didn't answer - What about vowel harmony in Farsi?


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## Outsider

I think Farsi (Persian) is fusional, like all Indo-European languages.


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## Tisia

No we don't have vowel harmony in Farsi, but still there should be some harmony for example when making a noun's plural.here few things you should know like when writing the plural of a noun. Some words are made plural by adding *ha*, some by adding *an* and few totally changes. eg..  
-Ketab(book)-> ketab*ha*(books): you can not say ketaban, it doesn't sound nice.
- Kudak(kid, child)->kudak*an*(kids, children): you can say kudak*ha* (in colloquial) but formally sound a bit inharmonic.
- Livan((drinking)glass)-> Livan*ha*(glasses)-> Not correct to say Livan*an*
- Rafiq(friend)-> *Rofaqa*(friends): better than saying rafiq*ha* or rafig*an* though not wrong.

This is really hard. I have never thought about Persian this way I know this is not an expert explanation but I really don't like googling 

Tisia


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## Tisia

Outsider said:
			
		

> I think Farsi (Persian) is fusional, like all Indo-European languages.


 
Right but not as much as eg..German or Finnish(Uralic language not Indo-European) where they have words mixed to make one big one and make it hell difficult for us to learn. 

Tisia


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## Outsider

Finnish _is_ agglutinative. It's not Indo-European.


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## Tisia

Outsider said:
			
		

> Finnish _is_ agglutinative. It's not Indo-European.


 
yes it is agglutinative and of Uralic family.

Tisia


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## badgrammar

Outsider said:
			
		

> I think Farsi (Persian) is fusional, like all Indo-European languages.



I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you mean by fusional, Outsider?


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## badgrammar

Again, very interesting, and here agin, totally different from Turkish, where vowel harmony is very strict.  But it is an incredibly regular language with few irregularities. 

For example, to make the plural, you always use -ler or -lar: 

kitaplar - Books (notice "b" changes to "p" for a "harmonious" sound)
bardaklar - glasses
arkada?lar - friends

But:
?eyler - things
te?ekkurler - thanks
servisler - services (adopted Englishism)

Thanks for your explanations, now I think I understand that the real similarities lie in vocabulary...



			
				Tisia said:
			
		

> No we don't have vowel harmony in Farsi, but still there should be some harmony for example when making a noun's plural.here few things you should know like when writing the plural of a noun. Some words are made plural by adding *ha*, some by adding *an* and few totally changes. eg..
> -Ketab(book)-> ketab*ha*(books): you can not say ketaban, it doesn't sound nice.
> - Kudak(kid, child)->kudak*an*(kids, children): you can say kudak*ha* (in colloquial) but formally sound a bit inharmonic.
> - Livan((drinking)glass)-> Livan*ha*(glasses)-> Not correct to say Livan*an*
> - Rafiq(friend)-> *Rofaqa*(friends): better than saying rafiq*ha* or rafig*an* though not wrong.
> 
> This is really hard. I have never thought about Persian this way I know this is not an expert explanation but I really don't like googling
> 
> Tisia


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## elroy

*Dear Badgrammar, Bienvenidos, Tisia, and anyone else interested in discussing Farsi:*

*I'd like to remind you of WR Rule #9:*



> *Stay on the topic of the first post in each thread. If you wish to talk about a related subject, open a new thread. *


*Jana had split the discussion about definite and indefinite articles from the thread **Persian/Farsi: Tom Cruise's "Red Rose**," and I have just split that thread into three separate threads:*

*Farsi: Definite/indefinite articles*
*Farsi: fruits/veggies*
*Farsi/Turkish: similarities and differences** (this thread)*

*Please stick to one topic per thread. It'll make both our jobs as moderators and everyone's viewing that much easier.*

*Thanks!*
*elroy*
*moderator *


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## Outsider

badgrammar said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you mean by fusional, Outsider?


Here's the conjugation of the present indicative of the verb _amar_ (to love) in Portuguese:

amo
amas
ama
amamos
amais
amam

And here it is in the present subjunctive:

ame
ames
ame
amemos
ameis
amem

Its root is _am-_, and as you can see you get the various different combinations of tense _x_ person _x_ number by adding certain suffixes to it. For each combination, there is a separate ending. For example, the ending -_amos_ indicates the present indicative, first person plural. All this information is "fused" in a single ending.

In an agglutinative language, the endings themselves can be broken down into various independent particles, each of which conveys a single piece of information. You might have one suffix for "present", another suffix for "indicative", another one for "first person", and separate one for "plural".


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## badgrammar

Thanks outsider, now I understand what you ean by fusional as opposed to agglutinative...


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## Bienvenidos

Elroy/Jana, thank you both very much for splitting the threads: I promise to stay on topic.  



			
				Tisia said:
			
		

> Hi goodgrammer
> 
> You could say Persian is an agglutinative language since it has alot of those words that are made of combined elements especially the verbs like *dust dashtan* (to love), *tamiz kardan* (to clean). The infinitive form of *daram*(I have) is *dashtan*(to have) and for *bordam*(I took) is *bordan* (to take) or *gereftam*(I took or I bought) if *gereftan*(to take or to buy).
> As you see all the endings in the ínfinitive form end in *en. *When you conjugate them it goes like this for present tense:
> 
> *Gereftan (to take):* mi+gir+subject suffix (mi shows it is in present tense, gir is the stem noun of the verb and Subject suffix or harmony is showing the person we are talking about: I , you.....)
> 
> Man *migir*am= I take
> To *migir*i= You take
> Oo *migir*ad= She/ He takes
> Ma *migir*im= We take
> Shoma *migir*id= You (plural) take
> Anha *migir*and= they take
> 
> These are almost the same in both Iranian and Afghan farsi. Bienvenido could tell you that
> There are of course exceptions and I don't think you want to know them at the moment
> 
> In answer to the last question: dar or tu (in or at), az(from), be(h)(to).
> Dar class or tu-ye class (in the class)
> Az khoneh (from home)
> Be madreseh(to school)
> 
> Glad to answer you questions and ....
> ....regards
> Tisia


 
Hey badgrammar,

As Tisia said, there are some exceptions, and you may or may not want to encounter them right now.

Here is the part when the major differences between Iranian Persian and Afghan Farsi come into play. *The verb conjugations are not identical!* Tisia's examples are correct in Iranian Persian, and in *written Afghan Farsi*. But the thing is, the conjugations change once spoken. One pronoun is also different. 

*Spoken Afghan Farsi Conjugation:*
I just have noted in parenthesis how I usually write them using the Roman alphabet (and accents). 

I take - Muh *mígírum*
You take - To (Tú, Tu)* mígírí*
She/He/It takes - Oo (U, Ú)* mígíra*
We take - Ma (Mah) *mígírím*
You (plural) _*and* _You (singular formal) take - Shoma (Shuma) *mígírín*
They take - Wah, ishan *mígírun*

As you can see, the *they *pronoun is different, and so are several of the verb conjugations. In addtion *Shoma (Shuma) is used as the You (singular formal). *

But remember, *when writing in Afghan Farsi, it's the same as Iranian Persian. So in writing, we wouldn't write "wo mígírun", we would write "anha mígírund". *So Tisia's examples are 100% correct in written Afghan Farsi. 

Infinitives end in *-an*. I call Farsi the language of regular irregular verbs, because all endings are regular, but the stems change greatly from the infinitive.

*Khordan - to eat*

I eat = *Muh míhorum*
You eat = *Tu míhorí*
He/She/It eats = *U míhora*
We eat = *Mah míhorím*
You (plural) eat = *Shuma míhorín*
They eat = *Wo míhorun*

Other examples:

*Ruftan - to go *
*I go - Muh mírum*

*Zudan - to hit*
*I hit - Muh mízunum*

*Duwídan - to run*
*I run - Muh míduwum*

Again, using the Roman alphabet, it is hard to accurately portray the verbs, but pronounciation works nevertheless.

*Bien*


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## Bienvenidos

Tisia said:
			
		

> In answer to the last question: dar or tu (in or at), az(from), be(h)(to).
> Dar class or tu-ye class (in the class)
> Az khoneh (from home)
> Be madreseh(to school)
> 
> Glad to answer you questions and ....
> ....regards
> Tisia


 
Hope this isn't on topic....discussing the similarities and differences between the structure of prepositional phrases between dialects.

In Afghan Farsi, it differs.

*The bíne uz sinf *(inside the classroom)
*Az khoneh *(from home, same in Iranian Persian)
*Ta muktub *(to school)

*Bien*


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## Tisia

Bien, some Iranian scholars sometimes like to use words like this though it is old Persian. Still if you talk to me I understand since we still use words like *senf*(class, more social class like working class rather than school) and *Maktab*(for school)

I have Afghan friends here and from them I have learned many of the differences.

Regards
Tisia


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## Emadddd

Tisia said:


> Hi goodgrammer
> 
> You could say Persian is an agglutinative language since it has alot of those words that are made of combined elements especially the verbs like *dust dashtan* (to love), *tamiz kardan* (to clean). The infinitive form of *daram*(I have) is *dashtan*(to have) and for *bordam*(I took) is *bordan* (to take) or *gereftam*(I took or I bought) if *gereftan*(to take or to buy).
> As you see all the endings in the ínfinitive form end in *en. *When you conjugate them it goes like this for present tense:
> 
> *Gereftan (to take):* mi+gir+subject suffix (mi shows it is in present tense, gir is the stem noun of the verb and Subject suffix or harmony is showing the person we are talking about: I , you.....)
> 
> Man *migir*am= I take
> To *migir*i= You take
> Oo *migir*ad= She/ He takes
> Ma *migir*im= We take
> Shoma *migir*id= You (plural) take
> Anha *migir*and= they take
> 
> These are almost the same in both Iranian and Afghan farsi. Bienvenido could tell you that
> There are of course exceptions and I don't think you want to know them at the moment
> 
> In answer to the last question: dar or tu (in or at), az(from), be(h)(to).
> Dar class or tu-ye class (in the class)
> Az khoneh (from home)
> Be madreseh(to school)
> 
> Glad to answer you questions and ....
> ....regards
> Tisia





Outsider said:


> I think Farsi (Persian) is fusional, like all Indo-European languages.


Hey all, I am a Persian native and I can say that the Persian language is not similar to the Turkish language although we were the same country for many centuries and we develope the same culture. Both languages share many words from each other and from Arabic but Persian can not be classified as fusional neither agglutinative (stem in Persian language changes as building past and present tense: رفت و می رود). In Turkish stem is intact and Turkish is agglutinative.


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## Emadddd

Tisia said:


> No we don't have vowel harmony in Farsi, but still there should be some harmony for example when making a noun's plural.here few things you should know like when writing the plural of a noun. Some words are made plural by adding *ha*, some by adding *an* and few totally changes. eg..
> -Ketab(book)-> ketab*ha*(books): you can not say ketaban, it doesn't sound nice.
> - Kudak(kid, child)->kudak*an*(kids, children): you can say kudak*ha* (in colloquial) but formally sound a bit inharmonic.
> - Livan((drinking)glass)-> Livan*ha*(glasses)-> Not correct to say Livan*an*
> - Rafiq(friend)-> *Rofaqa*(friends): better than saying rafiq*ha* or rafig*an* though not wrong.
> 
> This is really hard. I have never thought about Persian this way I know this is not an expert explanation but I really don't like googling
> 
> Tisia


Good point when you use the plural of a living creature you may use "*aan" *like "maadar*aan" *(mothers) , "kh(x)aridaar*aan" *(buyers) . And when you use the plural of nonliving beings you may use "*haa" *like chamedaan*haa *(baggages) , khodkaar*haa *(pens)
About Rofagha, it's tricky and may be confused because it's an Arabic word and plural is Irregular, you can use both rafigh*aan* and rofagha(Arabic plural) but it's better use Persian rules in Persian language rafigh*aan. *and best is prevent this difficulty with using Persian words like "doost" -> doost*aan* , "yaar" -> yaar*aan*
sorry for poor English 
sepaas


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## Emadddd

in Turkish root remain intact but in Persian, it may change:
afrookhtan, afrookht, afrookhte, afrooz, biafrooz, foroozan (something that burns), khaahad afrookht, mi afroozad, afrookhte bood, afroozaandan (not applicable)
neveshtan, nevesht, neveshte, nevis, benevis, nevisan (not applicable), khaahad nevesht, mi nevisad, neveshte bood, nevisaandan (put someone to write some thing),...



badgrammar said:


> Thanks outsider, now I understand what you ean by fusional as opposed to agglutinative...


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