# The values of Arabic letters/words



## Illuminatus

A friend of mine was telling me that traditional Arabic letters have values associated with them and that words also have some numbers. _Ali _علیwas 11 as per him.

He didn't know the details, but he left me very curious. Could somebody please elaborate on it?

Thanks


----------



## Faylasoof

Ah! Illiminatus, what you are talking about is common to Semitic languages where a letter carries a numerical value and these are referred to in Arabic as ‘Huroof ul ‘Abjad (=  حُروفُ ٱلأبجَد ).  Just looked at the table. So Ali  (على)  is = 70 + 30+ 10 = 110 [not 11].   Poets and writers can use this to create chronograms that include either a word or even a verse that yields a date / dates of significance.   I’ve many examples of Urdu poetical chronograms, but let us discuss these there.   Apparently, this was also popular in the late Roman Empire with Latin writers and public officials too!


----------



## Illuminatus

Thanks, Faylasoof, but I am afraid I didn't quite understand. Does the numbering have any significance or is random? 
_
  I’ve many examples of Urdu poetical chronograms, but let us discuss these there._

There=?


----------



## Xence

In fact, this is known as حساب الجُمّل and is a kind of numerological method common to Semitic languages, as explained Faylasoof.

I guess it's the same as gematria in Hebrew.


----------



## Faylasoof

Yes, Xence! It is precisley so called in Hebrew. Latin also has it, as I say above. More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronogram   Illuminatus, by 'there' I mean the 'Other Languages' forum where we have been discussing the finer points of Urdu and Hindi. The numerical values are significant when used the way I say above, hopefully made clear by the link provided by Xence.  Of course, I've heard Sufis discuss the numerological significance of names of persons and events. All beyond my scientific and mathematical training!!  But Urdu (and Farsi / Arabic) chronograms I find both useful and delightful.  Let me dig out an example or two. Back later.


----------



## Faylasoof

Hello Illuminatus,  Creating chronograms requires a lot of imagination and taxes your linguistic and poetical talents. A slightly easier way might be to look for verses in the works of famous (or not so famous) poets. Some even search the Quran for an appropriate verse. For example: اَحَلّنَا دَارَ المُقَامَةِ مِن فَضْلِهِ لا يَمَسُّنا فِيهَا نَصَبٌ    [… out of His grace and bounty He settled us in an abiding home where there is no toil …(35:35)]  This adds up to 1947 AD / CE, year of Indo-Pak independence!   The year of Gandhi’s assassination is deduced from this Urdu-Farsi sentence: قتلِ رهبرِ اعظم   [qatl-e-rahbar-e-a’azam = The murder of a great leader]. This gives 1948, when he was killed.     The year of compilation of a cookbook: … كُلوُا وَ اشرَبوُا وَ لا تُسرِفوُا   … [… eat and drink but waste not…(7:31)], gives 1357 AH   But the most difficult is choosing a word such that if you read the letters (WITHOUT ADDING), you get the date. When a nobleman in India had a garden built in 1269, he asked his courtiers to give it a name. One came up with: طوبا   - the tree of paradise = ‘alif’ gives 1, ‘baa’ gives 2, ‘waw’ gives 9 and ‘Taa’ gives 9. You need to put the numerical value of each letter under it and so read it LEFT to RIGHT, not the normal right to left for Arabic / Farsi / Urdu.   There are many other examples, some using very complicated rules, that I would rather not go into here.


----------



## Faylasoof

Xence,   Just a small point.  Following up on our last exchange here, I was puzzled by one thing. My Arabic grammar books (old books!) always refer to  حساب الجمل  as حروف الأبجد . A quick Wikipedia and Google search with حروف الأبجد  also did not show pages with the numerical tables. So are we looking at a difference in terminology between the 'old' fus-Ha and the 'new', i.e. MSA?


----------



## clevermizo

Faylasoof said:


> Xence,   Just a small point.  Following up on our last exchange here, I was puzzled by one thing. My Arabic grammar books (old books!) always refer to  حساب الجمل  as حروف الأبجد . A quick Wikipedia and Google search with حروف الأبجد  also did not show pages with the numerical tables. So are we looking at a difference in terminology between the 'old' fus-Ha and the 'new', i.e. MSA?



I always thought حروف الأبجد just referred to a different order of Arabic letters (the same as their analogs are listed in Hebrew or Aramaic: ا، ب، ج، د، ه، و etc. rather than ا، ب، ت، ث، ج where they are listed by shape).


----------



## Faylasoof

Yes clevermizo, I know. But in Arabic grammar books that I have (e.g. Haywood and Nahmad's) they do not even mention the term حساب الجمل. Instead حروف الأبجد is mentioned _with the numerical values underneath_. Just a small point of terminology I thought. Perhaps between the old and the new. That’s all.


----------



## lcfatima

Very interesting. I had heard about this before, but didn't understand. I know the same concept exists in Hebrew as well. Just out of curiosity, is this accepted by mainstream Islamic religious authorities or is it considered bida'a?


----------



## yasmeena

> is this accepted by mainstream Islamic religious authorities or is it considered bida'a


Some consider it bida'a, and the majority consider it unfavorable.


----------



## Xence

Faylasoof said:


> Xence, Just a small point. Following up on our last exchange here, I was puzzled by one thing. My Arabic grammar books (old books!) always refer to حساب الجمل as حروف الأبجد . A quick Wikipedia and Google search with حروف الأبجد also did not show pages with the numerical tables. So are we looking at a difference in terminology between the 'old' fus-Ha and the 'new', i.e. MSA?


Hi Faylasoof, 
Grammar books don't deal with _numerology_ (حساب الجمّل), even if some authors still mention the numerical tables inherited from occult/esoteric sources, for Arabic numerology was largely practiced in the past centuries. Hence the confusion.

***

As for the concept of _bid3a_, I totally disagree, since numerology was known to Arabs many centuries before the coming of Islam, and still continued to be used (for instance علم الجفر in Shii3a's sciences, سر الحرف in Sufi's literature, etc...)


----------



## Mahaodeh

My understanding is that it's not accepted by mainstream Islamic authorities, neither Shia' nor Sunna, although many laypeople may not have a problem with it.


----------



## Faylasoof

While I understand that for some there may be religious objections to numerology, I would assume that the art of chronograms is considered “harmless”. The above examples I have given (the Quranic verse and the Arabic and Farsi-Urdu prose) are the fruits of the efforts of a clergyman (mullah) in India called Hamid Hasan Qadri (1887-1964). Don’t know his views on numerology, but apparently one of his favourite past-times was either extracting chronograms from established texts in Arabic, Farsi and Urdu or composing them in the same – and he composed scores of them. If you really wish to know, he was a practising Hanafi cleric!!


----------



## Faylasoof

Ah! My own humble view? I shall let Ibrahim al-Adhami say it:     نرقع دنيانا بتمزيق ديننا      +  فلا ديننا يبقي ولا ما نرقع                       For some, chronograms are the easiest way to remember / work out dates of events. I think they are cool.


----------



## Xence

Here's another link related to the topic.
Let's admire this verse of poetry of Al-Kalil Ibn Ahmad, gathering all the Arabic alphabet!

*صِفْ خَلْقَ خَوْدٍ كمثل الشمس إذ بَزَغَتْ    ***    يَحْـظى الضَّجيـع بها نجـلاءُ معـطارُ*​


----------



## Illuminatus

Could you please explain the meaning?

My knowledge of Arabic is very very elementary


----------



## Xence

How can I dare to translate such a nicely phrased rhyme with my horrible and quaint English? 

Suffice it to say that the poet is describing a wonderful feminine creature...


----------



## Illuminatus

Ha ha!
Vous pouvez le traduire en français, si c'est plus facile.


----------



## Xence

_Imagine une superbe nymphe resplendissant tel un lever de soleil_
_Quel bonheur d'avoir les faveurs de cette jeune élancée, au suave parfum... _


----------



## Illuminatus

That sounds nice!

Merci bien


----------



## Faylasoof

Xence said:


> _Imagine une superbe nymphe resplendissant tel un lever de soleil_
> _Quel bonheur d'avoir les faveurs de cette jeune élancée, au suave parfum... _


 

Beautiful verse!!

… and now for the English version!


A nymph resplendent like the rising sun

Joyful are the favours of the perfumed damsel


( … with some artistic licence)


----------

