# الماء يكذِّب الغطاس



## djamal 2008

الماء يكذب الغطاس؟


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## yasmeena

Something like عند الإمتحان يكرم المرء أو يهان.


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## Mahaodeh

It generally means that if someone claims that he can dive, then the water is the test for him, if he's lieing then the water will expose him. This is how I understand it.


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## djamal 2008

Mahaodeh said:


> It generally means that if someone claims that he can dive, then the water is the test for him, if he's lieing  lying then the water will expose him. This is how I understand it.



to lie, lied, have lied.
to lay, laid, have lain.
Tricky verbs.


I thank you very much and it makes sense form now, althought I think it should الماء يؤكد الغطاس


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## Mahaodeh

Thanks Djamal, I'm horrible at English spelling.


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## Talib

So how does this gloss exactly? It looks like the water he lies the diver. Or do I have the verb wrong?


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## elroy

Talib said:


> So how does this gloss exactly? It looks like the water he lies the diver. Or do I have the verb wrong?


 The verb is "yukadhdhibu" not "yakdhibu."  It usually means "to accuse someone of lying."  In this context, it means "to show that what someone has said was a lie."

There's no one-word equivalent in English (that I know of, anyway ).


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## TheArabicStudent

الماء يكذِّب الغطاس

When I read this I thought "The water makes the baptizer lie?"  Because in Jordan I saw the place where John the Baptist was supposed to have baptized Jesus and it was called the مغطس.


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## elroy

That's probably because many people are "dipped" into water when baptized, but غطّس does not mean "to baptize."

The word for "to baptize" is عمّد, so a "baptizer" would be مُعَمِّد, but that's as uncommon as "baptizer" in English. 

Also, كذَّب is not used to mean "to make (someone) lie," even though it could mean that in theory.  See my previous post for an explanation of its meaning.


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## djamal 2008

كذّب = to believe something is wrong= to wrong or to deny to disprove or to discredit.


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## londonmasri

Just to ask, is _al-ghiTaas_ a diver?


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## djara

elroy said:


> There's no one-word equivalent in English (that I know of, anyway ).



Maybe the closest would be "to belie" or "to disprove" especially in the passive form. In our example, "the diver is disproved by the water"
Less literally, I'd suggest "Water reveals/exposes the diver" or "Water is the acid test for divers"


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## cherine

I like Djara's post 


londonmasri said:


> Just to ask, is _al-ghiTaas_ a diver?


al-ghiTaas is a Christian celebration عيد الغِطَاس : Epiphany

The diver is ghaTTaas, the verb ghaTasa غطس - yaghTis يغطس (we pronounce it yeghTaS in Egyptian). Another word for diver is ghawwaaS غوّاص and the verb is غاص - يغوص ghaaS - yaghuuS.


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## Talib

elroy said:


> The verb is "yukadhdhibu" not "yakdhibu."  It usually means "to accuse someone of lying."  In this context, it means "to show that what someone has said was a lie."
> 
> There's no one-word equivalent in English (that I know of, anyway ).


I see now. شكرًا جزيلآً. In English it might be "expose as a liar" or more colloquially "call someone out." But neither would be appropriate in this case.


> al-ghiTaas is a Christian celebration عيد الغِطَاس : Epiphany


Interesting ... I was raised Catholic, but I have to admit I never really knew what Epiphany was and I don't get its connection to dipping in water. Do you know the Arabic term for a baptism ceremony? Such as is commonly held for infants in Catholic families.


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## cherine

Baptism is "ta3miid" تعميد or "3imaad" عماد .
I think the choice of غطاس is for the reason given by Elroy:


elroy said:


> That's probably because many people are "dipped" into water when baptized, but غطّس does not mean "to baptize."


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## elroy

djara said:


> "the diver is disproved by the water"


 You can't really "disprove the diver"; you can disprove what he said.





cherine said:


> Baptism is "ta3miid" تعميد or "3imaad" عماد .


 There's also معمودية ("ma3muudiyya").


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## djamal 2008

يغوص = is to be in deep water.
يغطس =  is to dive in water.

But, back to the original saying, still nobody gave a convincing answer.


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## djara

elroy said:


> You can't really "disprove the diver"; you can disprove what he said.


 
You're right, but only in part. Normally, "to disprove" is used with such words as theory, belief, attitude, claim, etc. What is disproved is not the person but the person's claims. However, there is a figure of speech that allows for the substitution of one word for another which it suggests, (I think it's metonymy). In this case, what is meant by "the diver is disproved by the water" is "the diver's claims are disproved by the water" (we read 'claims' although it is not there because the verb suggests it).
Here are a few examples gathered here and there on the internet:
Gaming industry opponents disproved by facts.
Is Adam Smith 'disproved' by ants?
Hawking and Einstein disproved.
That would be like saying that Einstein disproved Newton -- when he actually only modified Newton.
Darwin justified, Darwin disproved.


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## djamal 2008

Actually the saying is : الماء* لا *يكذّب الغطاس


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## Mahaodeh

But that does not make sense to me. The purpose of the proverb/idiom is to say "ok then, the test will show the truth"; you would only say that if you have serious doubts and don't believe what has been said to you; that's when you use it. As an example, something like this:

الأول: أنا سريع جدا بالطباعة، يمكنني أن أطبع 80 كلمة في الدقيقة
الثاني: لا أصدق، بالأمس كنت تبحث عن الحروف
الأول: لقد أخذت دورة في الطباعة وتعلمت
الثاني: إهيه! حسنا، المية تكذّب الغطاس، ها هي الآلة الطابعة، أرني شطارتك

The point is, he does not believe, he beleives the test will show that he is lying. That's why it should be تكذّب (i.e. تقول أنه كاذب) not تصدّق (i.e. تقول أنه صادق)


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## djamal 2008

يقال عندما يختلف طرفين في وجود شيء او حدوثه او خبر فيقول احدهم ان _الماء_ لا _يكذب الغطاس_ اي ان كان هذا الشيء موجود سيظهر لان _الغطاس_ سيكتشف ان هناك _ماء_​ 
_In English it's a litmus test, I think_


المعنى: اي أن الانسان الذي يتظاهر بما ليس فيه فإنه عند التجربة يتضح صدقه من كذبه​ 
Still, it doesn't make sense to me.

I *believe* it should be avoided.


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