# The importance of higher education



## Etcetera

Hi all,
In Russia, highest education is considered to be of huge importance. Most parents want their children to receive a good education in a recognised university, most employers will not listen to a candidate if they don't have a diploma, and people who haven't received highest education are often seen as losers. That is to say, university education in Russia is free for those who scored high marks in their entrance exams. 
My friend, an MSU graduate, has moved to Canada, and she says that the attitude towards highest education is pretty different there. Her words made me think about the attitude towards higher education in different countries. How is it viewed in your country? Do employers pay much attention to the candidates' education?
And what do you think about highest education as such?


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## marcos_ipn

In Mexico, the Degree (licenciatura) is very important because is one step of be "succesful".
The mexican higest education is divide in two, the public and private.
The public supply is very small comparate with the enormous demand and the private is very expensive or cheap but in a lot of time with no much quality.

The kids when enter of kinder have the idea of arrive of the university, the family wait that you enter of the university and "pay" the sacrifices with your titulo.

In the Jobs is too very important and the first requirement in whatever job of profesional perfil of the worker.


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## PhilFrEn

Hi,

very interesting question.

I will rely on what I know and have seen so far. I have just finished my studies few months ago and now I am in the working life. I have succeeded in being engineer.

In France, to lead people (not as a director, but more as a Team Leader), you need a diploma (yes, yes I know, there is exception, some people after many years in y company, are skilled enought to get a good position, even without being diploma loaded). Engineer position: you need an Engineer diploma, only way in France to get it: engineering school. Oh God, now is the problem. In France we have so many of them, private, public, in the south, in the north, well known, unknown....these schools are all different, sometimes they are mentionned in ranking thing. Most of them are recognised by the state (which is important, because it gives value to your diploma). To enter the best school, you need to be the best at the exam "baccalauréat". But this is bullshit  (sorry for the word).

I come from a small school, recognised by the state, ok nice. But not well known, just doing its stuff nicely, training few people every year (15/20 persons in my field of knowledge per year for instance). With that, I would get a normal/low salary, because my school is not (well) ranked, because mainly it is a young school, 5 years of living.

What I want to highlight, is that yes a diploma is important, as well as to be recognise than to learn a little bit on the topic you want to work in, but much more important is the motivation. A friend of mine has beaten all the people coming form the best high school from France ("central Paris" etc) and has now a perrrrfect position within Peugeot Citroen Group. Motivation is so much more important, even for salary agreement, you ask 50k euros per year. Ok, proove that you worth them .

A diploma is a piece of paper, nothing else .


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## danielfranco

I'd say here in the States we value higher education also. We have phrases like, "don't be a fool, stay in school", and currently there is a big interest in telling grade-school kids to go to college by the school administration.
Unfortunately, even the "public" Universities are awfully expensive, and the cost of higer education is steep. Which really puts a crimp on many children's aspirations to higher education. Sure, there are scholarship programs and federal student loan programs, but the sheer number of applicants makes it difficult for the average student to be able to attend. For example, even a straight A student, top 25% of his class, in the 85 percentile of the admission tests (SAT, ACT, etc.) might have problems securing a scholarship. And if his parents make an average amount of money a year (say 28-35k each) then the kid might not qualify for grants and all he has left is the Guaranteed Student Loan.
So, yeah, we value higher eduaction, but as a society we haven't taken too many steps to make it more available to "financially-challenged" applicants.
But that's another matter altogether....


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## Etcetera

PhilFrEn said:


> Oh God, now is the problem. In France we have so many of them, private, public, in the south, in the north, well known, unknown....these schools are all different, sometimes they are mentionned in ranking thing. Most of them are recognised by the state (which is important, because it gives value to your diploma).


The same in Russia. Nearly every more or less big town has a university of its own. A state university, that is. Of course, they're pretty different - you can't possibly compare Moscow State University with Belgorod State University, for example. 
And yes, it's very important for a university or a college to be recognised by the state. The fact that this or that college is recognised by the state is always to be mentioned in its advertisements.



> A diploma is a piece of paper, nothing else .


I agree. 

In Russia, it's quite common that a proud owner of a diploma cum laude works in a state school or a small company, whereas their former mate who scarcely got his diploma lives in the USA or Canada and earns big money. 
I'll never get my diploma cum laude, but it doesn't bother me. When I was applying for the position of a teacher of English, I wasn't even asked how good a student I am. I just talked with the director for an hour and a half, and I was hired. 
Of course, the fact that I am a student of Moscow University and that my speciality is the English language, was a great advantage. But I know quite a lot of people who aren't specialists in this field, and still they're working as English teachers. And what is most important, they're good teachers.


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## Zoowärter

Until 6 years ago, university education was free in Austria, as long as you passed your "Matura". Starting in the year 2000 we have a fee of €400 / semester. The university system is changing this year to become more compliant with the European system (Baccleurate, Master), yet the students that started their studies before 2006 (like me) will still become "Magister" or "Doktor".
In Austria your formal qualification will unfortunatly always outrule your talents, virtues or other qualifications.


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## GEmatt

It's similar in Switzerland to how Zoowärter describes Austria. The paper you receive is generally regarded as more important than whatever other skills you might have. Similarly, good luck trying to get a job in a sector for which you don't have the precise qualification!

Where education is concerned, there's often resentment and a sense that university is "primadonna-ish" and "dawdling at the taxpayer's expense", which I think comes from the perception of fresh university graduates entering the job market around age 23, and securing positions which command higher salaries, even though they have little or no hands-on work experience. Graduates are seen basically as opportunists, in this case.

(By comparison, the traditional professional route is to start a 3 or 4 year apprenticeship after one's compulsory schooling (age 16), and work one's way up after that, in an enterprise that corresponds to one's apprenticeship - very streamlined. By age 23, they have more work experience, a perhaps more thorough or case-specific training, but will tend to earn less than a graduate.)

The exception to the rule is for those students who remain at university in their field of study and do their doctorate, ie opting for one career path, and sticking to it.


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## jinti

I think it depends very much on the field.

For instance, I work at a university (no, I'm not faculty) and my lack of a master's degree means I can't even get many interviews, let alone jobs. However, my years of experience and my portfolio are enough to let me slide about somewhat, and I've worked my way into a position of some responsibility. It's just been harder than if I had a master's.  

Most of my family is not college-educated, but has done well enough. One uncle became a self-taught artist. Another has gotten numerous qualifications and certificates in computer tech without ever going to college. He has a very good job now, but I'm not sure he'd be able to get to the same level if he were starting out today. A cousin is a woodworker and does stained glass restoration on the side. My brother dropped out of college and started his own business, which is quite successful now. 

So I don't think you need college to be successful or to have a good life. You just have to accept that some fields will not be open to you. Of course, having a college degree doesn't open all fields to you either, or guarantee that you'll be successful at the one(s) you choose.


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## caballoschica

danielfranco said:


> I'd say here in the States we value higher education also. We have phrases like, "don't be a fool, stay in school", and currently there is a big interest in telling grade-school kids to go to college by the school administration.
> Unfortunately, even the "public" Universities are awfully expensive, and the cost of higer education is steep. Which really puts a crimp on many children's aspirations to higher education. Sure, there are scholarship programs and federal student loan programs, but the sheer number of applicants makes it difficult for the average student to be able to attend. For example, even a straight A student, top 25% of his class, in the 85 percentile of the admission tests (SAT, ACT, etc.) might have problems securing a scholarship. And if his parents make an average amount of money a year (say 28-35k each) then the kid might not qualify for grants and all he has left is the Guaranteed Student Loan.
> So, yeah, we value higher eduaction, but as a society we haven't taken too many steps to make it more available to "financially-challenged" applicants.
> But that's another matter altogether....



I completely agree.  And we do need to make it more accessible.... Scholarships are tough to come by, especially with selective schools. And if you have a 4.0 GPA but a 21 ACT or a 1200 SAT you may only be able to obtain a lesser scholarship than the best scholarship possible even though you were a straight A student.  Student Loans, now-a-days, are pretty much inevitable.  

I think more and more people are applying and so colleges have to raise their standards more so that they don't get over-crowded.  

Jinti:  Yes, you can be successful without a collegiate education, but you have to know the right people and be in the right field with the right background.  I have cousins that actually have college degrees that don't have good jobs because their degree wasn't adequate for what they were looking for.  I have another with only an associates' degree, and he's struggling with finding a solid job.  

Some fields take you right out of college, while others need grad school.  And grad school is also expensive.  

But there is definitely high value placed on higher education by society here.


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## palomnik

Etcetera: The best way I can think of to answer your question is to cite the example of my wife. She came to the USA from Russia with no college degree and speaking only very rudimentary English. She eventually became a vice president with a large marine insurance brokerage in New York.

She has more than once told me that in her opinion, for her to get that far in Russia without a degree would be absolutely impossible; what I've heard of the rest of Europe doesn't sound much different. So even though the importance of a higher education is stressed very much here in the USA, I'd say that you can still do relatively better here without one than in other places.


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## ElaineG

What about the other values of higher education?  I couldn't have my particular job as a lawyer without my degrees (although I also have a purely decorative Master's in Literature), but the real importance of the four years I spent in college was:

1) learning to think creatively and independently (high school was boring and rote)

2) being challenged by a range of brilliant professors with different teaching styles

3) learning how to write a coherent, logical argument

4) learning how to read all types of text critically and inquisitively

5) learning how to do research

6) learning how to participate in heated intellectual discussions -- learning how to listen as well as respond

7) having the opportunity to study things like Art History, the History of the Soviet Union, the Sociology of Human Sexuality, advanced French, advanced calculus and many other things that I have never used professionally, but help me be an aware, engaged, interested citizen, person, friend, lover

8) perhaps, most importantly, forming lifelong friendships and bonds with other students from around the country and around the world, developing with them and through them from a very young teenager into something resembling an independent adult...

I finished up undergrad and law school with close to $100,000 in debt.  I've never regretted a penny of it.


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## cristina friz

What I want to highlight, is that yes a diploma is important, as well as to be recognise than to learn a little bit on the topic you want to work in, but much more important is the motivation. A friend of mine has beaten all the people coming form the best high school from France ("central Paris" etc) and has now a perrrrfect position within Peugeot Citroen Group. Motivation is so much more important, even for salary agreement, you ask 50k euros per year. Ok, proove that you worth them .

A diploma is a piece of paper, nothing else .[/quote]


I agree.  Motivation is very important. In my case I have got a university degree but in my country there are no possibilities to get a better job and to receive a good salary, so I sometimes feel that all the years I studied in the University were not worth.  I have not motivation right now to improve in my job.   On the other hand my father didn't go to the University and he was a very successful business man.


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## mytwolangs

They tend to make it sound like a diploma is the ticket to the American dream. Well in the USA, but see if this sounds like your own country as well?

I graduated with honors from a junior college [2 year], and my present job is working in a factory. I hold an associates in Computer Information/I.T. When I call about I.T. jobs, they always say the same thing - "Well we have had several hundred applications this week..."

And then I find out something really interesting - college does little to nothing to prepare one for their chosen field. I learned this not from experience, but from talking with several people who have been to college and work in their field of study. 

I made the mistake of signing up for those websites like monster.com and I do get many job offers a week - Jobs that claim one can earn up to $100,000 a year. Sales positions. Tell me what is wrong with that picture. I.T. job offers - none. 

So I think that college is not a bad thing, but it is no guarantee of a better paying job. I just wish that commercials and high schools would convey this fact instead of painting the perfect picture. The colleges do this to make money. 

I am a little bitter about the whole thing, yes. 
Cristina, with what you said - it is aggrivating as hell isn't it? 
But at least we each have a nice looking piece of paper.


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## Hakro

In Finland we have a very high level of general education. It has become a problem.

Today we are lacking professional and skilled plumbers, welders etc., but instead we have unemployed highly educated doctors, masters of science etc. whose services we don't really need. We have to import skilled professionals from Eastern Europe, as most of the Western European countries do.

Today any plumber in Finland earns more money than an ordinary master of science. But parents are still pushing their kids to go on studying more or less useless sciences "to get a job where your hands won't get dirty". 

Strange, isn't it?


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## Poetic Device

In my area education is exceptionally important if you want to live comfortably (yet for some reason you can be as dumb as a rock and somehow end up rich)
However, I remember last semester, when I was still in school, I was taught that females with an associates degree would on;y make about 25% more than what they did before they got the education.  Isn't that a little backwards considering that school, either during or immediately after your stay there, sucks up at least 65 to 75% of your income?


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## mytwolangs

Poetic Device said:


> However, I remember last semester, when I was still in school, I was taught that females with an associates degree would on;y make about 25% more than what they did before they got the education. Isn't that a little backwards considering that school, either during or immediately after your stay there, sucks up at least 65 to 75% of your income?


What about men with an associates in whatever field?

Junior colleges generally are not real expensive. The place I went, maybe $1,300 a semester [12 credit hours]with all credit hours, books, fees... Give or take.
Of course they did not have dorms.


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## don maico

Etcetera said:


> Hi all,
> In Russia, highest education is considered to be of huge importance. Most parents want their children to receive a good education in a recognised university, most employers will not listen to a candidate if they don't have a diploma, and people who haven't received highest education are often seen as losers. That is to say, university education in Russia is free for those who scored high marks in their entrance exams.
> My friend, an MSU graduate, has moved to Canada, and she says that the attitude towards highest education is pretty different there. Her words made me think about the attitude towards higher education in different countries. How is it viewed in your country? Do employers pay much attention to the candidates' education?
> And what do you think about highest education as such?



Its only important if you feel the need . I never have.Maybe I am unusual. 
The university of life teaches one a lot more


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## don maico

Hakro said:


> In Finland we have a very high level of general education. It has become a problem.
> 
> Today we are lacking professional and skilled plumbers, welders etc., but instead we have unemployed highly educated doctors, masters of science etc. whose services we don't really need. We have to import skilled professionals from Eastern Europe, as most of the Western European countries do.
> 
> Today any plumber in Finland earns more money than an ordinary master of science. But parents are still pushing their kids to go on studying more or less useless sciences "to get a job where your hands won't get dirty".
> 
> Strange, isn't it?



Veeeeery good point. Too many people see academia as the be and all which it isnt. In Cuba they have m any highly educated people working in bars or hotels because that is where the money is. Says something dont it?

get them plumbers going!


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## mytwolangs

I am glad I am not the only one in this crowd who understands that college is not the be all end all. 
Most people do not end up working in their field of study anyways.


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## caballoschica

That is true.  I'll probably end up a Lawyer or something like that rather than a scientist...and I'm a "chem major."  We'll see if I last through lab.  Or if I hate my summer internship.


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## GEmatt

mytwolangs said:


> Most people do not end up working in their field of study anyways.


 
But surely this doesn't really matter. The benefits of college are as ElaineG listed above, namely "transferable skills" that are of benefit in all walks of life. Even if you are entering an extremely technical field, there's often the option of doing a conversion course or supplementary qualification after your first degree...


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## gaer

GEmatt said:


> But surely this doesn't really matter. The benefits of college are as ElaineG listed above, namely "transferable skills" that are of benefit in all walks of life. Even if you are entering an extremely technical field, there's often the option of doing a conversion course or supplementary qualification after your first degree...


I loved college. Unfortunately, if your area of study does not all but guarantee employment after you are through with school, staying in school is quite risky.

My undergraduate degree in piano performance has been of about the same importance to me as spare toilet paper. After four years, I was so worried about the debt I had to pay back that I did not dare continue. I saw friends of mine who had rich families go on to get additional degrees, and that enabled them to get university positions.

After getting my performance degree, I bussed tables in a "rib joint", working with my much younger brother, then "hustled" my way into jobs that used my musical ability. Never once did I need my degree. It was never more than a piece of paper. 

Gaer


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## don maico

If you loved college then it was a positive worthwhile experience for you.Here in the Uk our government is trying to get a 50 % intake into our unis. Some of the courses on offer are of questionable benefit in terms of jobs thereafter. I would assume , though, that from other points iof view such as widening ones knowledge and developing as a person , they are invaluable.In many of our univeristies courses on offer are of a more vocational type eg central heating engineering or maybe landscape gardening- the distinctions between old style universities and colleges are slowly fading. Good if one wants to kick elitism in to touch.Degrees and diplomas will become as common as a driving licence


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## Etcetera

I would like to add that in Russia, it seems that a diploma gives you some confidence. Of course, it depends greatly on one's speciality. Well, take me: my speciality is called "Philologist & Teacher of the English Language and Literature". Teacher of English is one of the most promising jobs in the present-day Russia: if you're a teacher of English, you'll always find a position in a school or at least a bunch of private students. But... you won't earn much money. 
One of the few exceptions are university professors. They don't have huge salaries, either, but they can ask for a much higher price for their private lessons. 

I must say that the University has taught me - and continues to teach me! - a lot of things. Well, in the last three years I've been learning English mostly by reading books and talking to natives and other learners, not in the University classes, but the University has taught me something even more important. It taught me to think independently and creatively. To make decisions. To solve problems. And so on.


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## cristina friz

Etcetera,

I have a doubt.  

Here in my country you can not get a teacher degree until you have 22 years old, since you finish high school when you have 18 and then  you have to study at least  4 years at the university to get a degree.  How is it in Russia ?  How long do you have to study to be graduated as an english teacher ?


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## Etcetera

cristina friz said:


> Etcetera,
> 
> I have a doubt.
> 
> Here in my country you can not get a teacher degree until you have 22 years old, since you finish high school when you have 18 and then you have to study at least 4 years at the university to get a degree. How is it in Russia ? How long do you have to study to be graduated as an english teacher ?


I am still a student at Moscow University. And with God's help, I'll graduate in 2008. 
Moscow University is considered the best university in Russia, and most its students usually start to work when they're in their third or fourth year (most students study for 5 years to get their degree). I applied for a position of a teacher of English after finishing my third year, and they decided to take me.


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## Trina

Etcetera said:


> [...]In Russia, highest education is considered to be of huge importance. Most parents want their children to receive a good education in a recognised university, most employers will not listen to a candidate if they don't have a diploma, and people who haven't received highest education are often seen as losers. [...] How is it viewed in your country? Do employers pay much attention to the candidates' education?
> And what do you think about highest education as such?


When I was going through school , the push towards higher education was a lot greater than it is today. Back then, tertiary education was free. Now, it is not. (I am not uptodate with what it costs students today but I can say that compared to the American system, our students are extremely lucky.)
There was a time, when unemployment was at its highest, when it was extremely difficult to secure an interview for a job without that all-important piece of paper. Now, it doesn't seem so important. 
Eight years ago, when I was job seeking, almost no-one asked me about whether or not I had attended university. (Admittedly, had I been trying to gain employment as a doctor, lawyer, teacher etc where qualifications are essential, I would certainly hope that they would ask ). I landed a job as the senior estimator and quantity surveyor in a construction company.  My employers never asked about higher education. After the first interview, they asked me to sit a test in order to see if I had the necessary skills/ability for the job. They would provide all the training I required. (I had no background in the construction industry)



ElaineG said:


> What about the other values of higher education? [...] but the real importance of the four years I spent in college was:
> 1) learning to think creatively and independently (high school was boring and rote) Fortunately the school I attended, insisted on thinking and learning to do your own research. Nothing was by rote.
> 
> 2) being challenged by a range of brilliant professors with different teaching styles I was lucky enough to have this experience in high school.
> [...]


Perhaps it is not the higher education (ie university) which is so important. Perhaps, it is these skills. (see Elaine's full post) Maybe  more high schools should teach students these skills and instead of teaching lessons by rote.
Although I have no paper-declared qualifications or degrees, it has never held me back. I love learning and the day I stop studying, is the day I stop breathing.   
I don't need a university for this. Universities (IMVHO) are necessary only for people who need degrees etc in order to pursue their career.




Hakro said:


> [...]Today any plumber in Finland earns more money than an ordinary master of science.


Here, doctors complain about this.



Etcetera said:


> [...]It taught me to think independently and creatively. To make decisions. To solve problems. And so on.


While I have no doubt that attending University can *help* give you these skills, and maybe help you get them quicker, I believe that you would have been capable of getting these skills without it. The love of learning would have given them to you.


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## caballoschica

Yes, you may be able to get into a career without a university diploma and degree, but I think more and more employers are requiring their employees to have higher education.  Do you think a company, who generally requires a degree to get into, would even take a glance at a resume without higher education even if they were more skilled and more passionate than the people who had higher education in their backgrounds?  

That would be an ideal high school, Trina, but is it very possible that every high school can be that way and prepare their students the same?  I know that the schools near me differ in their preparation tremendously.  

University can help you get these skills, for sure.  You may have been able to acquire them on your own.  But would you have been able to push yourself beyond your comfort zone like the professors push you? And some things, you just can't learn on your own without help.  Any science is that way, I believe.  As much as you can do by yourself, it takes collaboration with others to fully understand what you are working with.  It takes someone to put you in the right place to start.  I think the best thing about universities is the fact that you get to meet all sorts of people with different interests and you get to expand your horizons.  There's no way I would've thought I had an interest in classical music if I hadn't been here.  I wouldn't have even thought of taking a linguistics class before.


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## fychen

in China, high degree is high money,high respect and high right. no fair!


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## don maico

Over here it depends on the degree 1st class 2nd class so on but also which course one takes Example- Media Studies is considered fairly useless . A Law degree would be step up a ladder. then there is law school . gaining ones articles and then joining a law firm and doing general dogsbody work for a year or so.Medicine ? Similar route really.
I really belive that graduates  should start at the bottom of the ladder when they begin their first employment and not expect to be shoed-into well paid position straight away. That way they gain respect from the other staff


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## Etcetera

Trina said:


> While I have no doubt that attending University can *help* give you these skills, and maybe help you get them quicker, I believe that you would have been capable of getting these skills without it. The love of learning would have given them to you.


It's possible. But it would be slower. Anyway, I can't say that I'm completely wasting my time at the University. 



> in China, high degree is high money,high respect and high right. no fair!


Why? 
You've spent several years studying. You've acquired wide knowledge and certain skills. And you have the right to be respected for it, I believe.
If you were really studying, of course. If your diploma is just a piece of paper and you haven't learnt anything, that's another story.


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## Poetic Device

fychen said:


> in China, high degree is high money,high respect and high right. no fair!


 
Does that degree cost a lot of money?  How expensive is it to get an adult education?  Are there any forms of assistant?  If the answer is that it does cost a lot of money and not everyone has an oppertunity to further their education, then yes, I would say that it is unfair.  In the U.S. there is a chance for scholarships and grants, and if you are not eligeable for that you could always take out a loan.


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## Etcetera

Poetic Device said:


> In the U.S. there is a chance for scholarships and grants, and if you are not eligeable for that you could always take out a loan.


Same in Russia.
There were quite a talks that many talented children simply can't afford studying, but it seems that the vast majority of Russians still believe that it's possible to receive good education if you have talents and desire to study.


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## clairanne

hi

I am now 52 and in my school days it was rare for people to go to University, especially if they were educated in the State School system.  No one in my family achieved this and I know of only one person in our village who went. If you wanted to become a teacher for example, you would go to a teacher training college and for business studies a polytechic for your training. You needed to pass your examinations with good grades to get there. If you failed them you did not go and would "get a job" in a bank or an office, for example.
Trades people got apprenticeships, usually until the age of 21, they often left school without formal qualifications as they had a desire to follow their chosen career as soon as they could or they were not "academic". This did not make them bad tradesmen and they were not made to feel inferior because of it. As in the earlier thread people seem to be ashamed of getting their hands dirty and think they are somehow less valid if they do.

The problem now, as I see it, in England is that no one fails.  We have tailored our exam system so that all young people leave school with some sort of examination success, however unintelligent(sorry very un "PC") and all are given the belief that they can do anything if they work hard enough.  All training colleges and polytechnic's are now called "University", in my family, for example, over half the under 30's have been to " University". I do not really believe they are all significantly more intelligent than me and my peers, and their written English in many cases is appalling.  

I am not impressed by a degree or diploma alone and much prefer someone who has aptitude/experience and most of all a willingness to learn the job they apply for.  I am often hearing young people say " I am at "uni" on a management course and then I am going into management."  Fine on paper but none of them seem to be able to actually do the job they are going to "manage". I would rather have somebody who left school early with no formal qualifications, worked up through a company, is dedicated and who has pride in their work.


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## Etcetera

clairanne said:


> All training colleges and polytechnic's are now called "University", in my family, for example, over half the under 30's have been to " University".


Interesting. 
It's quite the same in Russia: almost every college now is proudly calling itself "university" or "academy". Not all such "universities" are recognised by the state, however, but their graduates get well-printed, colourful diplomas.
But the employers are usually well aware of what are such "unversities" worth.


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## maxiogee

clairanne said:


> I am not impressed by a degree or diploma alone and much prefer someone who has aptitude/experience and most of all a willingness to learn the job they apply for.  I am often hearing young people say " I am at "uni" on a management course and then I am going into management."  Fine on paper but none of them seem to be able to actually do the job they are going to "manage". I would rather have somebody who left school early with no formal qualifications, worked up through a company, is dedicated and who has pride in their work.



We are of an age, and the Irish educational system is similar.
I would agree with much of what you say, except to note that people in HR departments do seem to set great store by degrees and bits of paper.
They don't want to have to train someone 'from the ground up' - they want a body, now, to fill the position of middle-manager, even if that person hasn't a clue about the gizmos the company manufactures.
My son is experiencing this at the moment. Almost 21 he has worked part time for the last four or five years. Summer and part-time work in supermarkets and department stores. Now he is in a large department store and working for people who haven't the foggiest about the product range. He's in his third year of college doing a Marketing course and can see that the people he works under know much of the theory but little of the practice of what they are doing - and they're full time employees. He's only part-time.


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## ElaineG

I hear what you are saying, Clairanne -- many former colleges in the U.S. are now universities as well (here the distinction is that Universities offer graduate programs beyond the initial 4-year degree, but "university" sounds better to some, so colleges will add a few master's programs so they can call themselves a university.  It's a bit silly, as some of the finest educational institutions in our country, Dartmouth and Oberlin spring to mind, are proud to call themselves colleges, despite the presence of some graduate programs).

However, educational marketing speak aside, I really don't see a problem with the ever increasing availability of higher education.  Why shouldn't a plumber study Tolstoy if she wants?  Why shouldn't an eventual nurse study economics if he so desires?  A broad, good education is a sheer delight and need not be entirely utilitarian and geared towards the job market.

We are living longer and longer, and retirement ages are going up through out the world.  We all have the rest of our lives -- til 65, 70, and beyond for the current generation of students -- to work.

Why not devote their late teens and early 20s to study and learning all kinds of interesting things?


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## maxiogee

ElaineG said:


> Why shouldn't a plumber study Tolstoy if she wants?  Why shouldn't an eventual nurse study economics if he so desires?



Agreed, but they will be priced out by those who are in it for an employment-oriented outcome.

The days of the rounded education are behind us, I think - until people get around to going to college later in life, purely for personal enrichment and not financial enrichment.


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## gaer

maxiogee said:


> The days of the rounded education are behind us, I think - until people get around to going to college later in life, purely for personal enrichment and not financial enrichment.


Don't forget that you can "round out your education" at any time and in many ways without taking classes.

You don't always HAVE to pay money to learn something, though sometimes it helps a lot.

Gaer


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## clairanne

Hi

I have no problem with people furthering their education and many people choose to study via the Open Univerity right up into their 80's and beyond.  The problem over here as I see it is there is no longer any distinction between the "bright" and "average" students and it seems often that the lower the IQ the more they think of themselves - most seem to think it a failure to be a tradesperson and as soon as they get the smart suit and fancy tie, they think they have the answer to all the problems in the world and have no reservations in telling everyone how they should about things.  None of these courses seem to actually tell them what the job is about, they are just taught to "manage."
Another good example is nursing.  To be a senior nurse now involves a degree course and lots of study, all well and good, but, I worked in a General Hospital for 11 years and a senior sister in outpatients did not know how to give an IV injection so an RAF trained SEN did it for her, and had never worked on a ward so did not know how to even make the beds.  She had come in as an outpatient nursing auxilliary and worked her way through the exams over 4 years, including a "management course.  I may be wrong but to me she is not a good nurse.


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## maxiogee

clairanne said:


> Another good example is nursing.  To be a senior nurse now involves a degree course and lots of study, all well and good, but, I worked in a General Hospital for 11 years and a senior sister in outpatients did not know how to give an IV injection so an RAF trained SEN did it for her, and had never worked on a ward so did not know how to even make the beds.  She had come in as an outpatient nursing auxilliary and worked her way through the exams over 4 years, including a "management course.  I may be wrong but to me she is not a good nurse.



But, truth be told, what does making the beds - in the regulated fashion - have to do with meing a nurse. Bed-making is all about style over substance, it just makes the ward look good.
We used to have a hospital here in Dublin were I was not allowed to get into bed until after a certain time of day, because the beds had been made and they didn't want the patients getting in and out and messing them up.


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## don maico

clairanne said:


> hi
> 
> I am now 52 and in my school days it was rare for people to go to University, especially if they were educated in the State School system.  No one in my family achieved this and I know of only one person in our village who went. If you wanted to become a teacher for example, you would go to a teacher training college and for business studies a polytechic for your training. You needed to pass your examinations with good grades to get there. If you failed them you did not go and would "get a job" in a bank or an office, for example.
> Trades people got apprenticeships, usually until the age of 21, they often left school without formal qualifications as they had a desire to follow their chosen career as soon as they could or they were not "academic". This did not make them bad tradesmen and they were not made to feel inferior because of it. As in the earlier thread people seem to be ashamed of getting their hands dirty and think they are somehow less valid if they do.
> 
> The problem now, as I see it, in England is that no one fails.  We have tailored our exam system so that all young people leave school with some sort of examination success, however unintelligent(sorry very un "PC") and all are given the belief that they can do anything if they work hard enough.  All training colleges and polytechnic's are now called "University", in my family, for example, over half the under 30's have been to " University". I do not really believe they are all significantly more intelligent than me and my peers, and their written English in many cases is appalling.
> 
> I am not impressed by a degree or diploma alone and much prefer someone who has aptitude/experience and most of all a willingness to learn the job they apply for.  I am often hearing young people say " I am at "uni" on a management course and then I am going into management."  Fine on paper but none of them seem to be able to actually do the job they are going to "manage". I would rather have somebody who left school early with no formal qualifications, worked up through a company, is dedicated and who has pride in their work.



I have to say I completely agree with your last paragraph . My belief is that graduates should be required to start at the bottom of any enterprise and gain the respect of their peers before moving on . Too many expect ot be shooed in to managment positons straightaway..
Personally I get my hands dirty as well and have great respect for tradesmen of which , I again agree, there are not enough. Having said that the world has moved on from what is was and there is clearly a need for more highly educated personnel as evidenced by the fact that so many countries are pushing up the numbers of graduates and economies are based on more and more on high skills. For too many years we have had a system of filtration known as exams designed to create a small number of individuals who could then cream off the best jobs. Right from the eleven plus the majority were left floundering as failures and many were badly affected by the experience which is this particular exam was largely  scrapped. John Prescott himself suffered from it as he failed whilst his brother, who was given a bicycle, passed . The irony was it fueled a resentment which ultimately got him where he is today.That can not be sad for the vast majority of "failures" No child likes to feel a failure so if he can pass exams ,which in turn bolster his confidence and self esteem, then that in my view is a good thing. I agree with the 3 RRRs point but thats down to the teaching.
Nursing has become far more technical that it used to be and nurses now specialise in particular fields which require them to gain further training/ education. Ditto some of the trades like central heating engineering.More and more of these tradesmen are finding themselves at "universities" to further their skills. BTW the term university just denotes a place of further learning thats all , whether it be academic or vocational.This is why all the Polytechnics have disappeared and why increasing numbers of FE centres are being relabelled as such as well. Good thing in my view.
Education eduication education is the key and the more we can get people involved the better. Unfortunetely in the Uk we have a culture of ignorance amongst far too many who think it cool to not want to learn at school. I remember talking to some peasant folk in southern Spain and was astonished at the amount of knowledge they had compared to similar back home. Somehow we have got to make learning a cool thing to do.


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