# He became a saint



## Andrew___

Hi guys,

I am trying to translate this sentence into Modern Standard Arabic:
*
"He became a saint, not by vainly longing to do heroic things that might never be given him to do, not by waiting for opportunities that might never occur, but by doing perfectly whatsoever his duty called him to do, in a spirit of love and service."*

Can I say:

.........أصبح قديساً، ليس

No I apologise, I can't go on, as this sentence is too difficult for me.

!شكراً لجميع
أندرو


----------



## Finland

Hello Andrew!

Thank you for the challenge. I decided to have a go at it:




Andrew___ said:


> *"He became a saint, not by vainly longing to do heroic things that might never be given him to do, not by waiting for opportunities that might never occur, but by doing perfectly whatsoever his duty called him to do, in a spirit of love and service."*


 
 This is my suggestion: 

"أصبح قديسا، ليس من خلال الحنين المختال إلى أعمال بطولية قد لا يُسمح له بالقيام بها، وليس من خلال انتظار فرص قد لا تُتاح له، بل من خلال القيام، وبشكل مثالي، بكل الذي كان عليه أن يفعله، وذلك في روح المحبة والخدمة."
 
I would be interested in hearing anyone's comments!
 
S


----------



## shafaq

Here is my attempt:
 أنه قد نال العزّة  و ذلك ليس بقيامه  عبثا  بأفعال بهلوانية التي لم تفرض عليه و لا بانتظاره للفرص التي غالبا لا يحتمل وقوعها بل بقيامه مُتّقنا فقط و بروح المودة و  الخدمة بما اُمر به. ه


----------



## Andrew___

It is great to see so many non-natives stepping in to make attempts!! Thanks guys.


----------



## Josh_

I am not sure either, but here is my try:

لا أصبح قديسًا من الاشتياق غير المجدي إلى أداء مآثر قد لا يؤمَر بها، ولا من انتظار فرص قد لا تأتي له، وإنما من تلبية ما دعا واجبه إلى فعله بشكل تام، وذلك من روح المحبة وروح الخدمة.ـ


----------



## elroy

Here's my suggestion:

أصبح قديسًا، وذلك ليس نتيجة رغبة غير مُجدية بالقيام بأعمال بطولية قد لا يُطلب منه القيام بها، ولا نتيجة انتظار فرصًا قد لا تتسنى له، بل نتيجة القيام بواجباته كلها بشكل كامل وبروح محبة وخدمة


----------



## Andrew___

Many thanks Elroy.

May I ask what you think of Josh's expression غير المجدي?  Does that work also?


----------



## cherine

Finland said:


> "أصبح قديسا، ليس من خلال الحنين المختال إلى أعمال بطولية قد لا يُسمح له بالقيام بها، وليس من خلال انتظار فرص قد لا تُتاح له، بل من خلال القيام، وبشكل مثالي، بكل الذي كان عليه أن يفعله، وذلك في روح المحبة والخدمة."


Good translation 
Allow me a few remarks/corrections:
- الحنين المختال is a bit hard to understand, although mukhtaal has to do with vanity, but I've never heard it used with abstract ideas.
- لا يُسمح له is not wrong, but it's about being "allowed" to do something, so it's a bit different from the original sentence.
The rest is great!
So, a little rewording:
أصبح قديسًا، لا من خلال السعى عبثًا إلى القيام بأعمال بطولية قد لا تُتاح له أبدًا، ولا بانتظار فرص قد لا تسنح له أبدًا، بل من خلال أداء واجبه على أكمل وجه، بروح من المحبة والخدمة



Josh_ said:


> لا أصبح قديسًا من الاشتياق غير المجدي إلى أداء مآثر قد لا يؤمَر بها، ولا من انتظار فرص قد لا تأتي له، وإنما من تلبية ما دعا واجبه إلى فعله بشكل تام، وذلك من روح المحبة وروح الخدمة.ـ


Very good too, Josh  And here are a few comments:
The حرف النفي used with the past is لم so لم يصبح is more correct than لا أصبح .
I loved your use of مآثر 
I don't know if we can use the verb "amara" with ma2aathir, I think المآثر is the good deed you do on your own. But I may be wrong.
I'd add a pronoun to the verb da3aa ما دعاه واجبه إلى فعله .


shafaq said:


> Here is my attempt:
> أنه قد نال العزّة و ذلك ليس بقيامه عبثا بأفعال بهلوانية التي لم تفرض عليه و لا بانتظاره للفرص التي غالبا لا يحتمل وقوعها بل بقيامه مُتّقنا فقط و بروح المودة و الخدمة بما اُمر به. ه


Good try from you too Shafaq, but I have a few questions/comments:
Why did you translate "saint" with العزة ? We do have the word ٌقديس in Arabic, and العزة is pride, so you changed the meaning.
أفعال بهلوانية is like circus work, it can connote difficult deeds, but it can create misunderstandings in such a context. I think بطولية (for heroic) is good enough.


----------



## Finland

Hello!



elroy said:


> Here's my suggestion:
> 
> أصبح قديسًا، وذلك ليس نتيجة رغبة غير مُجدية بالقيام بأعمال بطولية قد لا يُطلب منه القيام بها، ولا نتيجة انتظار فرصًا قد لا تتسنى له، بل نتيجة القيام بواجباته كلها بشكل كامل وبروح محبة وخدمة


 
It's AGAIN way past my bedtime, but I'm curious about one thing. I have always been wondering about the cases in which a مصدر gets a direct object, like in you translation: "انتظار فرصًا". I have noticed such a phenomenon in older texts, much less so for example in texts I come across in the media. My instinct would therefore doubtlessly be to write "انتظار فرصٍ". If I understand correctly, both can be considered correct - but could you shed some light on this type of construction?

I am so addicted to this forum! Thank you all ever so much for existing!

S


----------



## elroy

Some comments on the other attempts: 





Finland said:


> "أصبح قديسا، ليس من خلال الحنين المختال إلى أعمال بطولية قد لا يُسمح له بالقيام بها، وليس من خلال انتظار فرص قد لا تُتاح له، بل من خلال القيام، وبشكل مثالي، بكل الذي كان عليه أن يفعله، وذلك في روح المحبة والخدمة."


 حنين doesn't really fit in this context.
بشكل مثالي is "in an ideal manner."  There are ways to say "perfect" in Arabic. 
بروح, not في روح

Overall, very impressive translation!



shafaq said:


> أنه قد نال العزّة  و ذلك ليس بقيامه  عبثا  بأفعال بهلوانية التي لم تفرض عليه و لا بانتظاره للفرص التي غالبا لا يحتمل وقوعها بل بقيامه مُتّقنا فقط و بروح المودة و  الخدمة بما اُمر به. ه


 This is not an accurate translation.  There are too many semantic shifts; the meaning of the original is not preserved. 





Josh_ said:


> لا أصبح قديسًا من الاشتياق غير المجدي إلى أداء مآثر قد لا يؤمَر بها، ولا من انتظار فرص قد لا تأتي له، وإنما من تلبية ما دعا واجبه إلى فعله بشكل تام، وذلك من روح المحبة وروح الخدمة.ـ


لا أصبح قديسًا sounds strange to me.  If anything I would say لم يصبح قديسًا, but I would avoid that as well because it is likely to be misread as "He did not became a saint."
اشتياق, like حنين, is not suitable here.
قد لا يؤمر بها is too strong. These may be things that he would have simply been _asked_, rather than _ordered_,to do.
ما دعا واجبه is kind of odd.  I would prefer ما تتطلب منه واجبه, but you could also just say واجباته. 
بروح, not من وروح.

A comment to all 3 of you: روح محبة وخدمة (without articles) sounds better than روح المحبة والخدمة.


----------



## elroy

So many of you posted while I was posting! 



Andrew___ said:


> May I ask what you think of Josh's expression غير المجدي?  Does that work also?


 Yes.  In fact, I used غير مجدية in my own translation. 

Finland, I'm not sure if both are correct, so فرصًا may well be wrong.  This is a persistent habit of mine; I constantly treat objects of مصادر as direct objects, but like I said, I'm not sure that's correct.  What I can tell you for sure is that فرصٍ is definitely correct.  Perhaps someone else can shed more light on this.


----------



## Finland

Hello!



elroy said:


> Finland, I'm not sure if both are correct, so فرصًا may well be wrong. This is a persistent habit of mine; I constantly treat objects of مصادر as direct objects, but like I said, I'm not sure that's correct. What I can tell you for sure is that فرصٍ is definitely correct. Perhaps someone else can shed more light on this.


 
Thanks. I know there are situations in which masdars get direct objects (at least in more formal texts). If and when I find examples of this phenomenon, I'll start a new thread on the subject!

Now definitely good night (if I still post something tonight, someone please hit me!)

S


----------



## Josh_

cherine said:


> Very good too, Josh  And here are a few comments:
> The حرف النفي used with the past is لم so لم يصبح is more correct than لا أصبح .





elroy said:


> لا أصبح قديسًا sounds strange to me.  If anything I would say لم يصبح قديسًا,


Thanks for the compliment Cherine, and thanks to both of you for the feedback.  Yes, the negating particle used with the past tense is لم.  That was a careless error of mine.  You both should be aware of my level by now to know that that was just a careless error.  Like I said in the other thread, I'm off my game.



elroy said:


> but I would avoid that as well because it is likely to be misread as "He did not became a saint."


Wouldn't my use of إنما clear that up?  I thought starting a sentence off with a negative structure, and then using a contrastive conjunction (in order to emphasize what one is not or has not done, before explaining what they are or what they did) was a common one (e.g.  لا، ما، ليس، لم...إلا...ـ and لا، ما، ليس، لم...بل/إنما...ـ).  



elroy said:


> اشتياق, like حنين, is not suitable here.


You say it is not suitable, but Cherine did not comment on it.  Why do you think it is not suitable?

What is your opinion on توق?  I considered using that one as well.



cherine said:


> I'd add a pronoun to the verb da3aa ما دعاه واجبه إلى فعله .





elroy said:


> ما دعا واجبه is kind of odd.  I would prefer ما تتطلب منه واجبه, but you could also just say واجباته.


Do you think it is odd only because I forgot the pronominal suffix, or is there another reason?


----------



## Faylasoof

Hi All!

OK! Here is my go at it – two slightly different versions. 

I’m honestly not happy with this, nevertheless ….

أصبح قديساً وليس من شوق عبث لأعمال بطولية هي لا يمكن أن تُعطى له أبدا  وليس  باىنتظارفرص التي قد لا تحدث أبدا بل/ ولكن بعمل كامل ما هي واجبه المطلوب منه أن يفعل و بروح حب و خدمة​ or​ ما أصبح قديساً برغبة عبثة لأعمال بطولية ..... وبروح من الحب و الخدمة​ I’m sure there are mistakes here!

BTW, there are _two_ ways to negate a past action:
لم  + jussive
لم  یصبح ْ
ما + perfect
ما أصبح َ

Both are correct and I think applicable here if one were to translate the original more idiomatically, although I see Elroy you have an objection to this at it does change < He became a saint, not (by)…> to <He didn’t become a saint …>

I’m now in the wee hours of the night so I bid you all  
تصبح / تصبحين على خير !


----------



## Outlandish

Andrew___ said:


> *"He became a saint, not by vainly longing to do heroic things that might never be given him to do, not by waiting for opportunities that might never occur, but by doing perfectly whatsoever his duty called him to do, in a spirit of love and service."*
> 
> 
> أندرو


 


لقد اصبح قديسا! ليس بانتظاره اداء ادوار البطولة التى قد لا تنسب ابدا اليه, ليس بانتظاره لقدوم فرص غالبا لن تأتى ابدا, و لكن باداء ما يمليه عليه الواجب على اتم وجه بروح من الحب و البذل


The style is a bit literary as I guess the context might be.


----------



## cherine

Finland said:


> I have always been wondering about the cases in which a مصدر gets a direct object, like in you translation: "انتظار فرصًا". I have noticed such a phenomenon in older texts, much less so for example in texts I come across in the media. My instinct would therefore doubtlessly be to write "انتظار فرصٍ". If I understand correctly, both can be considered correct - but could you shed some light on this type of construction?


I checked my grammar book and here what is said about عمل المصدر :


يعمل المصدر عمل فعله، أي أنه يرفع فاعلاً أو ينصب مفعولاً به. ويعمل المصدر عمل فعله في موضعين:
- أن ينوب عن الفعل مثل: تركًا الإهمالَ (أي اترك الإهمال. الإهمال: مفعول به منصوب)
- أن يصلح تقديره بـ"أن والفعل" أو "ما والفعل"، مثل: عجبتُ من شُرْبِ زيدٍ العسلَ (يصح أن نضع أنْ والفعل مكان المصدر، فنقول: عجبتُ من أنْ يشربَ زيدٌ العسلَ، ويُعرب العسل مفعولاً به للمصدر).​
I hope this is not too complicate. The first case where the maSdar acts like a verb is not very common in MSA, but the second one is.
So, I'd say that in the case of the sentence we have here, the word should be muDaaf not maf3uul: انتظار فرصٍ .


Josh_ said:


> You both should be aware of my level by now to know that that was just a careless error.


We are, but sometimes even the most knowledgeable make little mistakes, so pointing them out is for the sake of checking and confirming, not necessarily for correcting. 


> Wouldn't my use of إنما clear that up?  I thought starting a sentence off with a negative structure, and then using a contrastive conjunction (in order to emphasize what one is not or has not done, before explaining what they are or what they did) was a common one (e.g.  لا، ما، ليس، لم...إلا...ـ and لا، ما، ليس، لم...بل/إنما...ـ).


I agree with you. Starting the sentence with a negation doesn't mean that "he didn't become a saint", because the rest of the sentence explains that (he didn't become by doing this, but by doing that).


> You say it is not suitable, but Cherine did not comment on it.  Why do you think it is not suitable?
> What is your opinion on توق?  I considered using that one as well.


I think I prefer tawq to the other two words. Excellent choice  I think it's the best translation for "longing" in this context.


Faylasoof said:


> أصبح قديساً وليس من شوق عبث لأعمال بطولية هي لا يمكن أن تُعطى له أبدا  وليس  باىنتظارفرص التي قد لا تحدث أبدا بل/ ولكن بعمل كامل ما هي واجبه المطلوب منه أن يفعل و بروح حب و خدمة​ or​ ما أصبح قديساً برغبة عبثة لأعمال بطولية ..... وبروح من الحب و الخدمة​ I’m sure there are mistakes here!


Well, yes, there are a few. I hope you won't mind my corrections:
- The waaw before ليس is not necessary. I'd put a comma after qiddiis and that's it.
- Did you use عبث as an adjective or an iDaafa? If iDaafa, I don't think it would be correct. But the adjective of عبث is 
عبثي.
- the pronoun hiya in هي لا يمكن is not necessary either.
- I personally prefer ولا instead of the second وليس
- You can't use التي to refer to an indefinite noun. So, either بانتظار الفرص التي قد لا  or بانتظار فرص قد لا
- Usually we use the verb sana7a with furSa: الفرص التي قد لا تسنح
- Is كامل an adjective or an iDaafa? Either ways, I'd personally reword this sentence : بعمل ما هو مطلوب منه/بعمل واجبه *على الوجه الأكمل/الأمثل* 
- The pronoun هي is incorrect.

For the second sentence, just change the preposition: برغبة عبثية/غير واقعية في أعمال بطولية


> I’m now in the wee hours of the night so I bid you all





> تصبح / تصبحين على خير !


As you're addressing all of us, I suggest the use of the plural تصبحون


----------



## shafaq

cherine said:


> Good try from you too Shafaq, but I have a few questions/comments:
> Why did you translate "saint" with العزة ? We do have the word ٌقديس in Arabic, and العزة is pride, so you changed the meaning.


.
Thank you *sherine* for your incitement. 
.
It (  العزة ) isn't the translation of *saint* ; instead  أنه قد نال العزّة   is the translation of what I comprehend (He earn the glory, ...) by the  "*He became a saint,*"; unless it was an excerpt from "The Biography of St. X" or something in this manner.  In othe


----------



## shafaq

elroy said:


> This is not an accurate translation.  There are too many semantic shifts; the meaning of the original is not preserved.


.
It is the translation of what I comprehend by the "He became a saint,"; unless it was an excerpt from "The Biography of St. X" or something in this manner. In other words, I didn't catch it as "He designated as General Director .....". If it was so; I apologize to all for this inconveniency.




elroy said:


> A comment to all 3 of you: روح محبة وخدمة (without articles) sounds better than روح المحبة والخدمة.


.
These  المحبة   and الخدمة  are not the ordinary material names but concepts and they are unique and known معرفة ; all times articled unless one has reasons for *the contrary*.
.
أيضا أشكرك لاهتمامك كما أتمني للكل *الخير *و *السعادة*​


----------



## elroy

Josh_ said:


> You both should be aware of my level by now to know that that was just a careless error.


 Actually, this forum has taught me that it's almost never a good idea to make conclusive statements.  By interacting with so many non-native learners of Arabic, I've learned that many structures that sound strange to me are technically acceptable, so I thought that maybe you were taught that sometimes it's okay to use لا this way, so all I said was that it sounded strange to me.


> Wouldn't my use of إنما clear that up?


 It would eventually get clear, yes, but it's easy to misread at first.  Plus, using the negative form makes the translation weaker.  In English, "He became a saint, not because...but because" is stronger than "He did not become a saint because...but because," and the situation is similar in Arabic.


> You say it is not suitable, but Cherine did not comment on it.  Why do you think it is not suitable?


 Because it is generally used to mean "miss," as in missing someone you haven't seen for a while.



> What is your opinion on توق?  I considered using that one as well.


 Me too.   But I finally decided that a simple رغبة would be quite sufficient here.




> Do you think it is odd only because I forgot the pronominal suffix, or is there another reason?


 It's just not a collocation I'm familiar with.  Adding a suffix makes it better, yes, but I still wouldn't use it in this context.



shafaq said:


> These  المحبة   and الخدمة  are not the ordinary material names but concepts and they are unique and known معرفة ; all times articled unless one has reasons for *the contrary*.


 And in this case there is a reason.  In روح محبة, محبة simply tells us what kind of spirit we are talking about.  روح المحبة sounds like there's a specific spirit that we're referring to.  It's the difference between "a spirit of love" and "the spirit of live."


----------



## shafaq

.   After hours when I came here back ; realized that an interesting happening had a visit to my  Yesterday, 09:49 PM post to cherine;  clipping it's tale out (even the editing reason while untouching the correction which was *intead* corrected to be *instead*).   So I preferred to renew it instead of editing.  All the  colored section is the clipped part of it while blue-colored section was what I copy-pasted into my next reply to elroy (a while after I posted it as a response to cherine's) and .remaining  what I recollected .  I apologize to all for the disturbance.
.



cherine said:


> good try from you too shafaq, but i have a few questions/comments:
> Why did you translate "saint" with العزة ? We do have the word ٌقديس in arabic, and العزة is pride, so you changed the meaning.


.
Thank you sherine for your incitement. 
.
It ( العزة ) isn't the translation of saint ; instead أنه قد نال العزّة is the translation of what I comprehend (He earned the glory, ...) by the "He became a saint,"; unless it was an excerpt from "The Biography of St. X" or something in this manner. In other words, I didn't catch it as "He designated as General Director .....". If it was so; I apologize to all for this inconveniency.



cherine said:


> أفعال بهلوانية is like circus work, it can connote difficult deeds, but it can create misunderstandings in such a context. I think بطولية (for heroic) is good enough.


.

Nothing to say after you save that it was a sudden inspiration came. Yet it runs a similar orbit with some diffrence. “ I think بطولية (for heroic) is good enough. “
أشكرك لاهتمامك​


----------



## Faylasoof

Firstly, thanks for your reply!



cherine said:


> Well, yes, there are a few. I hope you won't mind my corrections:



Not at all! I joined the forum as I am now learning entirely on my own and need feedback. It is quite hard, perhaps almost impossible, I think, to learn any language well from just a book!



> - Did you use عبث as an adjective or an iDaafa? If iDaafa, I don't think it would be correct. But the adjective of عبث is عبثي.



 It was meant as an adjective, so عبثي.



> - You can't use التي to refer to an indefinite noun. So, either بانتظار الفرص التي قد لا  or بانتظار فرص قد لا


Ah! Yes, let me explain what I did. Initially I did have <بانتظار الفرص التي قد..  > but then I dropped the definite article from in < الفرص > as I noticed that it is <opportunities> and not <the opportunities>. Actually, I could just as well have left this unchanged! But having done so I ought to have also dropped < التي>! 


> -Is كامل an adjective or an iDaafa? Either ways, I'd personally reword this sentence : بعمل ما هو مطلوب منه/بعمل واجبه *على الوجه الأكمل/الأمثل*


 Adjective, but I do note your rewording… and of course <عمل> is masculine!!  


> As you're addressing all of us, I suggest the use of the plural تصبحون


 Correct! A mixed male, female company of greater than 2 _always_ takes the masculine plural! I remember this rule. Now you’ll probably chuckle at what I’m about to tell you. I feel it so terribly unfair that in this masculine plural the females just disappear! So my intention was to wish everyone as individuals and thus maintain the female presence. All seems pretty idiosyncratic (!), but then that is me.

.... and I'm quite happy with your other suggestions. Thanks, once again!


----------

