# Pappa-san



## giannid

Where does this "san" come from?  Is it italian or japanese or something?

I heard it in a song that had the words _pappa-san, mamma-san_, referring to father and mother.


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## Moogey

Hi giannid,

It is my understanding that "san" is "sir" or "mister" (maybe ma'am too?) in Japanese. In Italian, it means "saint".

The way that it is used in your example is Japanese 

(But don't take my word on the specifics, I don't study Japanese)

-M


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## Flaminius

_Papa-san_ and _mama-san_ are indeed Japanese. The loan words for father and mother having gotten affixed with the non-gender honorification marker _-san_, their meanings are no longer just father and mother.

In Japan, I most often hear the two in bars, hostess clubs and small restaurants, where the owner, the manager or both are called thus by customers and employees. They are intimate appellations based on a make-believe blood-relationship.

I would not, however, use _papa-san_ and _mama-san_ in reference to my own or someone else's parents. 

I am not 100% sure but Japanese emigrants might have brought these words into US.


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## giannid

Thanks for the information.

I heard it in this English song: _Straight to Hell_ by The Clash.
http://www.lyricsdepot.com/the_clash/straight-to-hell.html

You wanna join in a chorus of the Amerasian blues?
When it's Christmas out in Ho Chi Minh City
Kiddie say papa papa papa *papa-san* take me home


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## Victoria32

giannid said:


> Thanks for the information.
> 
> I heard it in this English song: _Straight to Hell_ by The Clash.
> http://www.lyricsdepot.com/the_clash/straight-to-hell.html
> 
> You wanna join in a chorus of the Amerasian blues?
> When it's Christmas out in Ho Chi Minh City
> Kiddie say papa papa papa *papa-san* take me home


My son did Japanese at school, and was really embarassed when he used 'Mama-san' inappropriately, his (Japanese) teacher explained that a Mama-san is the madam of a brothel! 

Knowing _The Clash_ as I do, that's exactly what they will have meant...


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## giannid

What about Paisan? Don't some Italian americans use that word? I used to think it was something like peasant (countryman) in Italian, but Pai means father in portuguese so it could be related, no? _Pai-san_ and _Papa-san_.


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## Flaminius

Papa and mama (as I implied _supra_) are loan words into Japanese.  I would think they come from French _papa_ and _mamman._  [As it goes with any words that are still recognised as loans, their use is surrounded by constraints and implications.]  They might have come from other Romance languages but surely their roots are Latin _pater_ and _mater_.

On the other hand, _paysan_, a French word meaning farmer is related to English _peasant_ and _pagan_.  They ultimately go back to Latin _pagus_, region.


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## gaer

Flaminius said:


> Papa and mama (as I implied _supra_) are loan words into Japanese. I would think they come from French _papa_ and _mamman._ [As it goes with any words that are still recognised as loans, their use is surrounded by constraints and implications.] They might have come from other Romance languages but surely their roots are Latin _pater_ and _mater_.
> 
> On the other hand, _paysan_, a French word meaning farmer is related to English _peasant_ and _pagan_. They ultimately go back to Latin _pagus_, region.


"Papa" and "mama" are common in English, French and Spanish, I believe, and I think also in Italian. I believe you are right about the origin, which is most likely Latin.

I think the use of さん is a bit tricky as a sign of respect. I don't know if this is the right thread to talk about it though.

Gaer


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## Aoyama

Papa-san would sound strange _in Japan_ , but mama-san as the lady in charge of a night-club is common ...
Papa and mama are echoic baby talk, originally from latin or greek, other languages use , for example, aba, ima, abu, om(m)a etc . 
  Remember also that *p* and* m *often interchange.


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## giannid

Well he sings about Ho Chi Ming so maybe it's a vietnamese word.


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