# ならともかく、ならでは、ならではの



## 涼宮

Could someone give examples using those grammatical points? concerning to the dictionary they mean:

ならともかく: ''it's different when ... but; it's not so bad when ... but ''
ならでは: (n-suf) but; except; without; but for
ならではの: (exp,aux) distinctive of; characteristic of; uniquely applying to; special to . 

But without examples I cannot get it.


よろしくおねがいします。


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## Wishfull

涼宮 said:


> Could someone give examples using those grammatical points? concerning to the dictionary they mean:
> 
> ならともかく: ''it's different when ... but; it's not so bad when ... but ''
> 
> *酒とたばこにおぼれるだけならともかく、覚せい剤におぼれてしまって、救いようがない。
> It's not so bad when he indulges in alcohol and smoking, but he is helpless when he indulges in the illegal drug.*
> *
> チワワのような小型犬ならともかく、ドーベルマンのような大型犬を集合住宅で飼うのは許されない。
> It's not so bad when you have a small dog like Chihuahua, but you're not allowed to have a big dog like Doberman in this condominium apartment.*
> 
> 
> ならでは: (n-suf) but; except; without; but for
> 
> *This is Old Japanese word.
> 人伝（ひとづて）ならで君に語らむ
> （You don't have to remember this, because it is no more used in Modern Japanese.)*
> 
> 
> 
> ならではの: (exp,aux) distinctive of; characteristic of; uniquely applying to; special to .
> *
> その家は、冬は寒いが、夏涼しいという、日本建築ならではの良さがあった。
> The house had a merit special to Japanese traditional architecture, in which it is cold in the winter but it is cool in the summer.*
> 
> *その茶碗（ちゃわん）には、手作り（てづくり）ならではの、愛情にあふれていた。
> I felt a deep affection of the creator to the china bowl.  The affection which is characteristic of hand-made-work.*


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## 涼宮

Thank you very much, I could get the first one, but not at all the second one.
Would you mind give me some examples else with ならではの?

よろしくお願いいたします


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## Wishfull

ならではの: (exp,aux) distinctive of; characteristic of; uniquely applying to; special to .

It might be easy for you to understand that;
ならではの＝にしかない特長としての


その家は、（冬は寒いが、夏涼しいという）、日本建築*ならではの*良さがあった。
＝その家は、（冬は寒いが、夏涼しいという）、日本建築*にしかない特長としての*良さがあった。

その茶碗（ちゃわん）には、手作り（てづくり）ならではの、愛情にあふれていた。
その茶碗（ちゃわん）には、手作り（てづくり）*にしかない特長としての*愛情にあふれていた。

日本食には、日本食ならではの良さがある。
日本食には、日本食にしかない特長としての良さがある。

「なんくるないさ」。それは彼女*ならではの*コメントでしたね。
「なんくるないさ」。それは彼女*にしかない特長としての*コメントでしたね。

*X（noun)ならではのY（noun)
=Y, uniquely applying to X
=Y, special to X
=Y, characteristics of X*


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## 涼宮

ありがとうございました。

In here:
「なんくるないさ」。それは彼女*ならではの*コメントでしたね。
It means ''don't worry'' was the special word that she said'' Could I translate it like that?

And ならではの Is possible to be used with rules with the meaning of uniquely applying to?

For instance:

'' must get up early'' *uniquely applying to the person who has been late for 3 weeks.''*

*よろしくお願いします*


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## almostfreebird

"なんくるないさ"

I had no idea what it meant, maybe because I don't watch TV much these days.


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## 涼宮

almostfreebird said:


> "なんくるないさ"
> 
> I had no idea what it meant, maybe because I don't watch TV much these days.


 
If I remember it is a word from Okinawa which means '' don't worry''
I learnt it from an anime called blood+


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## almostfreebird

涼宮 said:


> If I remember it is a word from Okinawa which means '' don't worry''
> I learnt it from an anime called blood+



Gracias.

Yes. It means "なんとかなるさ(It'll be all right)", a dialect in Okinawa, 
I googled.


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## almostfreebird

Back to original question:

http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8&p=ならでは&dtype=3&dname=2na&stype=0&pagenum=1&index=03216800


彼ならでは　の　技（わざ）だ=彼でなくては　出来ない技（わざ）だ。＝彼だけが出来る技だ。
It is a trick only he is capable of (doing).


日本ならでは　の　料理だ＝日本でしか　食べられない　料理だ。
It is a dish that you can eat only in Japan.

彼女ならではのコメントでしたね。＝彼女しか　できない　コメントでしたね。
It was a comment that nobody could make but her.




Sorry I can't explain grammatically.


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## 涼宮

So the true meaning of ならではの is that just one person could do something that noone else could do? if it is so it would be the _same _meaning that でなくては or ならではの besides the meaning which gives the dictionary it also has the meaning you give me?

I say the same meaning than でなくては because of the '' nobody but''

例:
こんな美味しい料理母親でなくては作られない。
Noone but my mother could make this tasty meal.

So I Am not clear at all.


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## Wishfull

Hi.
でなくては and ならではの conveys the same meaning, but you have to change the sentence structure.


例:
こんな美味しい料理母親でなくては作られない（verb)。
こんな美味しい料理は母親ならではの料理(noun)だ。

その家は、（冬は寒いが、夏涼しいという）、日本建築ならではの良さがあった。
（冬は寒いが、夏涼しいという）、その家の良さは、日本建築でなくては達成できないことであった。

その茶碗（ちゃわん）には、手作り（てづくり）ならではの、愛情にあふれていた。
その茶碗に対する愛情は、手作りでなくては表現できないものであった。

I think these expressions are very difficult to write/speak, for children or Japanese learners. It is very difficult to make it natural.
But
I think you can understand when you read/hear.

In other words, these vocabularies are relatively advanced ones.

These three (two, ignoring ならで） words are very different words, only the first two letters are the same.  You had better not to confuse one another.


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## 涼宮

But then I cannot use ならではの in here?
'' must get up early'' *uniquely applying to* the person who has been late for 3 weeks.''

Because the dictionary at the beginning gave another definition.


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## Wishfull

涼宮 said:


> '' must get up early'' *uniquely applying to* the person who has been late for 3 weeks.''



Could you explain more about this English sentence?
Is "must get up early" without a subject "imperative sentence"?

I could understand the sentence if it were "3 hours".
I couldn't understand the English's meaning.

Anyway, ならではの　is related to "merit",  "something good".
You shouldn't use ならではの　to "something bad", "demerit".
I think the English sentence is talking about something bad, so you shouldn't use it.

Hope this helps
Wishfull


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## 涼宮

'' must get up early'' *uniquely applying to* the person who has been late for 3 weeks.''

It is like something: (the fact of/ the rule of) must get up early *uniquely applying to* the person who has been late for 3 weeks.

It is supposing in a crazy world or rule that for being considerated to be late you have to miss 3 weeks. but if it is easier for you think 3 hours use it, I just created the sentence whithout thinking. (笑)

But if you say that it is only to talk about merit and something good then, it means that the dictionary's definition is wrong isn't it?


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## Wishfull

Hi.
I don't get it, not yet.

'' must get up early'' uniquely applying to the person who has been late for 3 weeks.''
is an English proverb?
or a Spanish proverb?
or Your own creation?

Why "uniquely" is used here?
It isn't apply to the person who has been late for 4 weeks?
Or 2 weeks?

/////////
I don't think the definition is wrong.
Only lacking further explanation of the usage of the word.


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## 涼宮

Okay I will try to do easier the explanation of that sentence, it is not a proverb I just created the sentence,

We are going to suppose the sentence in the following way more literal than other thing.

'' you have to get up early'' that rule will be only given to the person who has been late for 3 weaks, noone else _just_ for those people.

It is clearer now?

Of course I would use に限り in that sentence but I was asking if I could use ならではの for that, which one of its meaning is uniquely applying to , it means something like '' it just works to/ it is only applicable to''


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## Wishfull

涼宮 said:


> Okay I will try to do easier the explanation of that sentence, it is not a proverb I just created the sentence,
> 
> We are going to suppose the sentence in the following way more literal than other thing.
> 
> '' you have to get up early'' that rule will be only given to the person who has been late for 3 weaks, noone else _just_ for those people.
> 
> It is clearer now?
> *OK. I got it.*
> 
> 
> Of course I would use に限り in that sentence
> *→Yes, you can.*
> 
> but I was asking if I could use ならではの for that,
> 
> *→　No, you can't. It is only for something affirmative. You don't use it for something negative as in this case.*
> 
> 
> 
> which one of its meaning is uniquely applying to , it means something like '' it just works to/ it is only applicable to''


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## almostfreebird

'' must get up early'' uniquely applying to the person who has been late for 3 weeks.''

You mean She's overslept and late for work these 3 weeks consecutively.

She must get up early. She is so uniquely slob.


If you want to use the word "ならでは,or ならではの" anyway to describe her 

uniqueness, It's going to be like:

この　いいかげんさ(sloppiness)、ずぼらさ(laziness)　は　彼女ならではの　ふるまい　だ。

彼女ならではの　ふるまい=彼女でなくては　できない　ふるまい＝彼女しか　できない　ふるまい＝彼女だけが

できる　ふるまい＝ほかの人には　まねが　できない　ふるまい=a behavior no one but her could 

perform=a behavior which only she could perform


This sloppiness uniquely applies to her.


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## 涼宮

二人ともどうもありがとうございました。 I think I got the point of ならではの.

If it means something like a characteristic which is only applicable to a person or a characteristic which is common to see on that person would be right if I said this?

いつもいつも私を待たせるなんてあいつならではの普通だろう。

よろしくおねがいします


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## almostfreebird

涼宮 said:


> いつもいつも私を待たせるなんてあいつならではの普通だろう。




I don't know why, but this sentence makes me laugh.

It's unusual and not correct maybe, though I understand what it means.


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## 涼宮

I tried to express in that sentence something like:

いつも私を待たせるなんてあいつの普通の習癖だろう。
making me wait is a common bad habit on him.

But perhaps it sounded a little odd.


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## Wishfull

almostfreebird said:


> '' must get up early'' uniquely applying to the person who has been late for 3 weeks.''
> 
> You mean She's overslept and late for work these 3 weeks consecutively.



Thank you, almostfreebird, I finally got it. 

I thought he has been late for 3×７×２４＝504ｈｒｓ.
I thought he must be said "You're fired!" instead of "must get up early".

Anyway, he must be fired if he were a Japanese.


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## almostfreebird

My try:

あの人　いつもいつも私を待たせるんだから（嫌に（いやに）なっちゃう）。　
でも　それが　あの人にとって　普通なんでしょう。




"いつもいつも私を待たせるなんてあいつならではの普通だろう。"
I like this sentence whatever it is unusual(^_^)


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## 涼宮

ハハハ
その文は楽しいでしょうね私にも楽しいですよ。

じゃ、その文法をもう理解できました。

他の疑問をポストするつもりです。めんどうであればすみません。でも、正しい日本語を理解できるために、いい文法の慣用法、日本人に聞かなければいけません。

じゃ、ほなな～


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## Strutter

涼宮 said:


> 二人ともどうもありがとうございました。 I think I got the point of ならではの.
> 
> If it means something like a characteristic which is only applicable to a person or a characteristic which is common to see on that person would be right if I said this?
> 
> いつもいつも私を待たせるなんてあいつならではの普通だろう。
> 
> よろしくおねがいします


 
Hola!

I would say;
いつもいつも私を待たせるなんて、あいつならではの無神経さ(thick-skinned)だろう。

If you use "AならではのB", you must also show "what is unique to A"(in your sentence, you must show what is "普通" to あいつ)

この季節ならではの景色。
It is a scenery you can see only this season.
彼ならではの面白さ。
It is a sence of humor only he has.

Ciao~

Oh, I overlooked page 2 and discussing had been already finished ... but I would leave this.


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## 涼宮

Really thanks with your example you helped me more. (^_^)

ほなな～


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