# systems of name+surname



## jmx

Hello, I need information about how the name of a person is formed in each country or culture. I have searched on the Internet, but I've come up with very little. This is what I know :

In Spain we have 2 surnames, not just one, and this seems to be confusing to foreigners. The first one comes from your father, the second one from your mother, and if you have children, they will inherit your first surname. Also, women do not change their surname when they marry.

In Portugal it is like in Spain, except that the mother's surname comes first, and then the father's one.

In most of Europe, and the USA, there is just one surname, that of your father. In the USA they have also the middle name, but I'm not quite sure about how it works. And it seems women always adopt their husband's surname.

I've heard that in Iceland, the surname is based on your father's given name, not in his surname. Something similar might apply to arab countries.

Please tell me what do you know about this, or either send me a link to some information related to the subject. Thank you


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## DDT

Concerning Italy - and as far as I know in France it's the same - you simply "inherit" your father's surname

DDT


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## beatrizg

In Colombia we use both surnames, as in Spain. 

Regarding the surname of a married woman, she can either choose to keep hers or use her husband's. 
They can also add the word “de” before the husband’s name, as: 
Consuelo Arboleda de Acevedo
or Consuelo de Acevedo

In the last decades most women keep their names unchanged when they get married.


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## Dalian

In China, the surname comes first, followed by the given name.
like in Wang Lan, Wang is the family name, Lan the given name.
The name sequence is the same in Japan and Korea.

In my country, a child inherits his/her father's surname. A woman does not change her surname after marriage.


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## Wordsmyth

... and then there's France : 

As in anglo-culture countries, a person generally has one surname, inherited from the father, which is preceded by the main given name ("prénom") : Pierre Dupont. When a woman marries, she usually changes her surname (for everyday use) to her husband's surname.

Now for the (frequent!) exceptions:  Administrators, schools, armed forces, some companies, etc, often (but not always!) put the surname first : Dupont Pierre  -- even if he's not Chinese!! 

Because this can be confusing with names that can be both surname and given name (e.g. Richard Robert), the surname is often (but not always!) written in upper case : Pierre DUPONT or  DUPONT Pierre. 

In some (but not all!) administrative procedures, a married woman keeps her original surname, so Marie Laffont who marries Pierre Dupont could be Marie Laffont  or Laffont Marie  or Marie Dupont  or Dupont Marie, or any of those four with the surname in capital letters!!

Even street names don't escape confusion: If you see a street named "rue Henri Martin, Héro de la Résistance 1943-1944", you might wonder where to look for it in a directory - actually you would look under 'M', though ironically nobody would ever call it the "rue MARTIN Henri" !!

Easy, isn't it?


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## mirandolina

The situation is similar in Italy.
In official documents people frequently put the surname before the name.
When I got married, in Scotland, my husband was in the Italian army and automatically signed the register with his surname first.
He had to go back to the church a few days later and sign it the "right way".

Women take the husband's surname, but in their profession they usually keep their own, especially doctors, school teachers and so on.
All our tax forms, bank accounts, health insurance, other official documents are in our maiden name too.
As a translator, I work with my own name. This is especially because, when working for magazines or books, the publishers want to make it clear that it is not an Italian who is translating the texts but a genuine native English-speaker. 




			
				Wordsmyth said:
			
		

> ... and then there's France :
> 
> As in anglo-culture countries, a person generally has one surname, inherited from the father, which is preceded by the main given name ("prénom") : Pierre Dupont. When a woman marries, she usually changes her surname (for everyday use) to her husband's surname.
> 
> Now for the (frequent!) exceptions: Administrators, schools, armed forces, some companies, etc, often (but not always!) put the surname first : Dupont Pierre -- even if he's not Chinese!!
> 
> Because this can be confusing with names that can be both surname and given name (e.g. Richard Robert), the surname is often (but not always!) written in upper case : Pierre DUPONT or DUPONT Pierre.
> 
> In some (but not all!) administrative procedures, a married woman keeps her original surname, so Marie Laffont who marries Pierre Dupont could be Marie Laffont or Laffont Marie or Marie Dupont or Dupont Marie, or any of those four with the surname in capital letters!!
> 
> Even street names don't escape confusion: If you see a street named "rue Henri Martin, Héro de la Résistance 1943-1944", you might wonder where to look for it in a directory - actually you would look under 'M', though ironically nobody would ever call it the "rue MARTIN Henri" !!
> 
> Easy, isn't it?


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## Edwin

jmartins said:
			
		

> Please tell me what do you know about this, or either send me a link to some information related to the subject. Thank you




Here's a link to the Wikipedia entry for ''Family name''.  It discusses the naming conventions for most countries. 

I might mention that in the USA most people have three names: 

First Name, Middle Name, Last Name.  

For example, our last president (the one I voted for) was 

William Jefferson Clinton. 

His last name was his father's name (well--in his case that's not correct since his natural father died before he was born and when his mother remarried he took her new husband's last name for his last name).  His parents (the mother in Clinton's case) gave him his first name and middle name.  

The first and middle names can be just about anything that the parents desire. Often, but not necessarily, the middle name has some family connection such as the mother's maiden name (her father's last name) or one of the grandparents first names.


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## Lancel0t

Here in the Philippines we have this sequence, First Name Middle Name Last Name

First Name - Any given name by your parents
Middle Name - You mother's last name before she was married
Last Name - You father's last name

A woman after marriage usually takes the last name of her husband and her previous last name would be her middle name.

Hope this helps.


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## ayed

jmartins said:
			
		

> Hello, I need information about how the name of a person is formed in each country or culture. I have searched on the Internet, but I've come up with very little. This is what I know :
> 
> In Spain we have 2 surnames, not just one, and this seems to be confusing to foreigners. The first one comes from your father, the second one from your mother, and if you have children, they will inherit your first surname. Also, women do not change their surname when they marry.
> 
> In Portugal it is like in Spain, except that the mother's surname comes first, and then the father's one.
> 
> In most of Europe, and the USA, there is just one surname, that of your father. In the USA they have also the middle name, but I'm not quite sure about how it works. And it seems women always adopt their husband's surname.
> 
> I've heard that in Iceland, the surname is based on your father's given name, not in his surname. Something similar might apply to arab countries.
> 
> Please tell me what do you know about this, or either send me a link to some information related to the subject. Thank you


Thank you for your question .

In Saudi Arabia, person's name comes as this:

it is optional for you to choose the suitable name for your boy or daughter.You could name your baby after your dead father or daughter after her grandmother and so on.
The sequence of the name is this:
Ali bin Salim bin Khalid al-Zahrani
Ali " the son of" Salim " the son of " Khalid al-Zahrani

The first name , the middle name , the last name and the tribal name


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## manel.sanchez.ruiz

In Catalan is it
1.- Name
2.- First father family name
3.- First mother family name
Between both family name we put and 'i' to separate both.

  Then for a children that parents name are Manel Sanchez i Urquijo (father) and Isabel Ruiz i Ros (mother) their children with name Jordi will be :  Jordi Sanchez i Ruiz.


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## Wordsmyth

Lancel0t said:
			
		

> Here in the Philippines we have this sequence, First Name Middle Name Last Name
> 
> First Name - Any given name by your parents
> Middle Name - You mother's last name before she was married
> Last Name - You father's last name
> 
> A woman after marriage usually takes the last name of her husband and her previous last name would be her middle name.
> 
> Hope this helps.



 Magandang araw, Lancel0t.   Komusta ka?

So you've given the formal answer, but may I add a little 'extra' on Filipino names?   In my days in the Philippines, many people I knew had informal nicknames, and often put them on their business cards: First Name - "Nickname" - Last Name, like Christina "Boots" Galfo, Jaime "Pat" Paloma, Coying "Gigi" Lamug, Ma.Lourdes "Malou" Lozada, ...  I found this charming, as it immediately cuts the ice and leads to more friendly relations.  Is that still common practice?

.


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## Outsider

jmartins said:
			
		

> In Spain we have 2 surnames, not just one, and this seems to be confusing to foreigners. The first one comes from your father, the second one from your mother, and if you have children, they will inherit your first surname. *Also, women do not change their surname when they marry.*
> 
> In Portugal it is like in Spain, except that the mother's surname comes first, and then the father's one.


In Portugal, women usually add their husband's last name to the end of their surname, although some do not.

It might be worth pointing out that in Spain and Portugal a person's given name is often made up of _two_ names. 

Typical Portuguese man's name:

José Francisco Henriques Martins 

green -> given name
red -> mother's family name
blue -> father's family name

Single girls' names have the same structure, but when a woman gets married, she often adds her husband's last name to hers. Typical Portuguese married woman's name:

Maria Leonor Henriques Martins da Silva

orange -> husband's last name


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## te gato

In Canada the names are listed: 
Given..
Middle..
Last.. (Fathers then Husbands)
If you are Catholic you then add a Confirmation name into the mix..This is a name aproved by the church, and must be the name of a "Saint".
Also a lot of times..A woman can choose to Hyphenate her "Last" name..keeping her Maiden name and adding her husbands..
So in the end you would get:
Given--Sue
Middle--Ann
Confirmation--Veronica
Hyphenated--Jones-Smith
Makes for a very long title..and hard to put on stationery!! 
te gato


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## ~PiCHi~

beatrizg said:
			
		

> In Colombia we use both surnames, as in Spain.
> 
> Regarding the surname of a married woman, she can either choose to keep hers or use her husband's.
> They can also add the word “de” before the husband’s name, as:
> Consuelo Arboleda de Acevedo
> or Consuelo de Acevedo
> 
> In the last decades most women keep their names unchanged when they get married.


 
In México it's the same.
Your given name (Some people have two)
and two last names: The first one is from your father and the second one from your mom.

Women used to get aswell the husband's name with "de" after their lastname, but I think these days that's not used anymore.. They either keep theirs, or change for the husband's without the "de"..


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## cuchuflete

Hola Te Gato,
Your post reminds me of the slow progression of fashion, or the near impossibility of imposing common sense on burrrrocrats.

When my first son was born, his mother and I agreed that he should have both her last name and mine.  (I had persuaded her to keep her own last name, rather than take mine, when we married.  I did this out of respect for her, and to make clear that marriage did not erase her identity.)

The day of his birth, I filled out a hospital form that provided room for all of his names:  D______[first name] O_____[middle name, to honor a dear friend from Spain] M________[mother's last name] C__________[father's last name].  Shortly thereafter, the nurse arrived, inspected the form, and wrote D__O__ M - C, adding a hyphen between the two last names.

I crossed all of that out, and re-wrote it without the hyphen.  Later in the day, the nurse returned, and the process began again.  The next day the same thing happened.  By now, my famous patience was exhausted.  I directed myself to the nurse, and declared, in the most stentorian tones I could manage,

"Nurse, please note that this child, D___O____ has two parents, whose last names he will carrry.  One parent is named M________.  The other is named C______.  This child is devoid of, lacking, and otherwise not in possession of any parent whose last name is HYPHEN!!!  Kindly do not attribute to my son a third parent with that name.  

The nurse scowled fiercely at me, and left the room.  The hyphen was not seen again.

saludos,
C-





			
				te gato said:
			
		

> In Canada the names are listed:
> Given..
> Middle..
> Last.. (Fathers then Husbands)
> If you are Catholic you then add a Confirmation name into the mix..This is a name aproved by the church, and must be the name of a "Saint".
> Also a lot of times..A woman can choose to Hyphenate her "Last" name..keeping her Maiden name and adding her husbands..
> So in the end you would get:
> Given--Sue
> Middle--Ann
> Confirmation--Veronica
> Hyphenated--Jones-Smith
> Makes for a very long title..and hard to put on stationery!!
> te gato


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## Lancel0t

Wordsmyth said:
			
		

> Magandang araw, Lancel0t.   K*a*musta ka?


 Magandang araw din. Mabuti. Ikaw?



			
				Wordsmyth said:
			
		

> So you've given the formal answer, but may I add a little 'extra' on Filipino names?   In my days in the Philippines, many people I knew had informal nicknames, and often put them on their business cards: First Name - "Nickname" - Last Name, like Christina "Boots" Galfo, Jaime "Pat" Paloma, Coying "Gigi" Lamug, Ma.Lourdes "Malou" Lozada, ...  I found this charming, as it immediately cuts the ice and leads to more friendly relations.  Is that still common practice?



Some people are still using that format but most of the time they simply use the regular format which is First Name + Middle Initial + Last Name.


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## jmx

> In Saudi Arabia, person's name comes as this:
> 
> it is optional for you to choose the suitable name for your boy or daughter.You could name your baby after your dead father or daughter after her grandmother and so on.
> The sequence of the name is this:
> Ali bin Salim bin Khalid al-Zahrani
> Ali " the son of" Salim " the son of " Khalid al-Zahrani
> 
> The first name , the middle name , the last name and the tribal name


So, If I understand well, *Ali* is the given name, *Salim* is the father's given name, *Khalid* is the grandfather's given name, and *al-Zahrani* is something like a surname, which passes unchanged through the generations. Is that right ?


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## pinkpanter

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> This child is devoid of, lacking, and otherwise not in possession of any parent whose last name is HYPHEN!!!  Kindly do not attribute to my son a third parent with that name.



Wow! I'm impressed. It's great you got your way


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## cuchuflete

pinkpanter said:
			
		

> Wow! I'm impressed. It's great you got your way



I'm not sure if it was the power of my logic, or that the nurse was wise enough not to want to deal with a man crazy enough to want his wife to keep her own name, and to give it to his first born son! 

abrazos,
Cuchu


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## Artrella

In Argentina we inherit our father's surname, but nowadays if you want, you can add your mother's.


Father's surname =   Martínez Rosas 
Mother's surname =  Oria
Name =  Patricia

So you are =  Patricia Martínez Rosas / Patricia Martínez Rosas Oria

When you get married >>> Patricia Martínez Rosas *de* Echegoyen / Patricia Martínez Rosas Oria *de* Echegoyen


Saludos


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## beatrizg

Greeks use the father’s surname and first name. 

Let’s say the father is called Konstantinos Petrou Voulgaris.

Voulgaris is the surname that the son or daughter will inherit. Petrou (declinacion genitiva) comes form Petros, the name of the Konstantinos’ father.
The son, would most probably be given the grandfather’s first name, as it is the tradition –but not necessarily.
Son: Petros Konstantinou Voulgaris. 
In case it’s a woman she would be 
Elektra Konstantinou Voulgari (the "s" is missing due to the declinacion genitiva in all women’s surnames).

Sorry, I don’t know how what is the "declinacion genitiva" (in Greek: geniki ptosi) called in English. 
It’s like using the "de" in Spanish. 
I hope this is clear…


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## Silvia

Cuciu, you should have been in Italy then  
Your patience would have been stretched to the limits!
You have to pay if you want to add different last names other than the father's. That's why only rich people do that.

Here's the procedure:
Devi presentare una richiesta alla Corte di Appello competente (quella di residenza del minore) indirizzandola al Presidente della Repubblica. 
Devono essere evidenziate le ragioni per le quali si richiede tale aggiunta che, prescrive la legge, dovranno avere la qualità di "motivi validi".
L'iter burocratico è piuttosto lungo, sia in termini di atti da compiere che temporali, ed è svolto dal Ministero di Grazia e Giustizia; esso termina, dopo indagini svolte anche a mezzo di polizia giudiziaria, con un decreto ministeriale che andrà pubblicato sulla Gazzetta Ufficiale ed affisso sull'albo pretorio dei Comuni di nascita e di residenza del soggetto che richiede l'aggiunta.
L'elenco della documentazione da allegare all'istanza si può richiedere alla Corte di Appello competente rivolgendosi all'Ufficio Affari civili (tale elenco spesso cambia da distretto a distretto).


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## Outsider

beatrizg said:
			
		

> Sorry, I don’t know how what is the "declinacion genitiva" (in Greek: geniki ptosi) called in English.
> It’s like using the "de" in Spanish.
> I hope this is clear…


"Genitive declension", or "genitive case".


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## beatrizg

beatrizg said:
			
		

> Greeks use the father’s surname and first name.
> 
> Let’s say the father is called Konstantinos Petrou Voulgaris.
> 
> Voulgaris is the surname that the son or daughter will inherit. Petrou (declinacion genitiva) comes form Petros, the name of the Konstantinos’ father.
> The son, would most probably be given the grandfather’s first name, as it is the tradition –but not necessarily.
> Son: Petros Konstantinou Voulgaris.
> In case it’s a woman she would be
> Elektra Konstantinou Voulgari (the "s" is missing due to the declinacion genitiva in all women’s surnames).
> 
> Sorry, I don’t know how what is the "declinacion genitiva" (in Greek: geniki ptosi) called in English.
> 
> I hope this is clear…


 

Thank you Outsider!



Just for the record I'd like to add that Greeks normally use the first name and the surname, as in Konstantinos Voulgaris, Elektra Voulgari, etc… The father's first name is mostly used in documents.


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## edward_mao

Dalian said:
			
		

> In China, the surname comes first, followed by the given name.
> like in Wang Lan, Wang is the family name, Lan the given name.
> The name sequence is the same in Japan and Korea.
> 
> In my country, a child inherits his/her father's surname. A woman does not change her surname after marriage.


 
Agree! But I think I should supplyment something. Sometimes, children can inherit their mothers' surnames. It is more common in a divorce family in which children are raise by their single mother.


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## arabian_princess

What I have heard for Middle Eastern cultures is that the father's given name is all of the children's middle name. (I have my father's name, Isam as my middle name, althogh it is a male name). The children inherit the father's surname and the wife is supposed to keep her name as is.

Another interesting cultural nomenclature is that the oldest son of a family names his first son after his father.
i.e. Abdullah has a son, randomly named Sami. Sami has a son, whom he names Abdallah. Little Abdullah names his first son Sami, and etc...I don't know if this is only a Jordanian custom, but I have seen it used quite a bit.


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## mjscott

My grandfather, from the Azores, was Manuel de Maria then his last name, which was his father's surname. Was his mother too poor or brought up without a surname? I don't recall any of this being mentioned growing up--only that my granfather's mother's name was Maria, and that my grandfather's middle name was de Maria.


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## jmx

A couple more questions, 1 about arab countries, 1 about China.

1) I've often heard about arab people named 'Abu' something :
Abu Mazin, Abu Nidal, etc.
Is it a sort of nickname ? What does it mean and when and how is it used ?

2) I've read that Deng Xiaoping had changed his given name several times, so 'Xiaoping' is one he coined himself. Is that common practice in China ?


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## edward_mao

jmartins said:
			
		

> A couple more questions, 1 about arab countries, 1 about China.
> 
> 1) I've often heard about arab people named 'Abu' something :
> Abu Mazin, Abu Nidal, etc.
> Is it a sort of nickname ? What does it mean and when and how is it used ?
> 
> 2) I've read that Deng Xiaoping had changed his given name several times, so 'Xiaoping' is one he coined himself. Is that common practice in China ?


 
I'd like to answer the second question for you. I do not think it is common for people to change their own given names. And I would say it's usually in some very particular situations that people will consider changing their names. By the way, changing your name can be a pretty complete thing.


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## jmx

Thanks to all people that have made a contribution to this thread. Now I have at least one source of reference, provided by Edwin : the Wikipedia, under 'family name' :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name

By the way, when I first browsed it, there was a mistake with respect to Spain, but later it was corrected, with no intervention from me. Funny.

I think it would be a good idea that all of you who answered my question, or others,  make your contributions to the Wikipedia, since in this way your knowledge will be available to many more people. I think this issue of how a person is named in each country gets little attention and it is the origin of hundreds of cultural misunderstandings.

I'll try to keep the thread open in case more people want to contribute, after all, vast areas of the world haven't been mentioned.

Thank you all, again.


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## Poetic Device

3. If the person becomes adopted, or if a woman marries, do they drop any of their names or do they keep all of them?

For example, my birth name is JEB; when I was adopted it turned to JEMBP; when I married it turned to JEMBPJ.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

In Venezuela, it is similar to Colombia and Argentina, although there can be some changes. Let me explain: (why is it that things always get complicated after one says that sentence? )

My friend Caro was born as Ana Carolina González Estéves.
Ana Carolina => Given names.
González => Father's surname.
Estéves => Mother's surname.

She got married to Mr. Carlos Daniel Fernández Pérez. So now she lost her mother's surname and her full name is Mrs. Ana González de Fernández, the wife of Mr. Carlos Fernández. We still call her Caro, but strangers (adm. forces, her doctor's receptionist, etc) would call her Mrs. (de) Fernández.


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## mcibor

Poetic Device said:


> 3. If the person becomes adopted, or if a woman marries, do they drop any of their names or do they keep all of them?
> 
> For example, my birth name is JEB; when I was adopted it turned to JEMBP; when I married it turned to JEMBPJ.



In Poland that person would rather drop is, so if
Anna Nowak is adopted / marries Jan Kowalski then she usually becomes
Anna Kowalska (feminine endings)

However she may well stay with her name, if it's well known or has some szlachta connotations, then you would write it with a hyphen

Anna Nowak-Kowalska (no spaces around the hyphen)

Few months ago there was a contest in Poland for the funniest surname. Won:
Cyps albo Zyps   which translates to "Cyps (C as in pizza) or Zyps (Z as in zeal)"


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## winklepicker

jmartins said:


> I've heard that in Iceland, the surname is based on your father's given name, not in his surname.


 
That's correct. Björk Gudmundsdottir is the daughter of a man with the first name Gudmund. Magnus Magnusson was the son of a man with the first name Magnus.

Should we complicate things further by talking about the order in which the names tend to be used? Let's say you design a webform like this:

Title ____
First name _______
Last name________

 and lots of people from around the world fill it in. You will soon find that your database is a nonsense: the Yanks and the Brits put their given name first and their family name last; the French, Italians, some Germans, the Chinese do it the other way round. 

Title _gets misunderstood too. Ah me._


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## Etcetera

Poetic Device said:


> 3. If the person becomes adopted, or if a woman marries, do they drop any of their names or do they keep all of them?
> 
> For example, my birth name is JEB; when I was adopted it turned to JEMBP; when I married it turned to JEMBPJ.


In Russia, the child usually have his or her father's surname. Rarely, the child may have his mother's surname (especially if the woman is divorced or something else happens). Double surnames (mother's + father's) is also possible, but, as far as I know, only if the parents have adopted each other's surnames. 
If the person becomes adopted, they drop their previous surname and have now their stepparents' surname.


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## Poetic Device

What if the couple gets divorces?  Does  the woman drop her former husband's name?


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## Vanest

I was just wondering how the names are used in Russia? Is is the same as in Iceland?

I would just like to add something about names in Ecuador. It is mostly similar to other Latin American countries, with the difference that many years ago (the laws have been changed) if a child was born of a single mother and the father did not "recognize" the child as his own, the child was given the mother´s last name twice. For example, Pedro Jiménez Jiménez. This is becuase for all official purposes it is neccessary to have two last names. It also used to be necessary to have two given names. 

And another thing that hasn't been mentioned about Spanish last names is that the ending "ez" historically means "son of". So Fernández means "Son of Fernando" but, nowadays, a person whose son is called Vicente Fernández is probably not called Fernando. But many centuries ago it was so. 

In general, names used to be much longer. One used to have a confirmation name as well, although this is no longer neccessary. (Ecuador is a country with a large Catholic majority. The laws used to abide church laws, in fact, before the creation of the civil registry in the beginning of the 20th century, the was no birth certificate, only a baptismal cartificate, with many names on it...)

I hope I haven´t got of topic.


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## Etcetera

Vanest said:


> I was just wondering how the names are used in Russia? Is is the same as in Iceland?


That's quite simple. We usually have only one name (I'm Anna, and my Mum's Elena). Patronyms (special names formed from your father's name) are used, most often, in formal situations when addressing a person. My father's name is Valery, so I can be addressed officially as Anna Valeryevna (please, don't use it, OK?) But if I had a brother called, say, Alexander, he would be Alexander Valeryevich. 
It's possible to address a person with господин/госпожа + surname.


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## Venezuelan_sweetie

Poetic Device said:


> What if the couple gets divorces? Does the woman drop her former husband's name?


In Venezuela, yes.  Take this example:

A woman I know was born as Carmen Selena González Fernández.  She got married, and then her name was Carmen Selena González de Chávez (no relation with any other famous Chávez...).  

Later on, she got divorced, so => Carmen Selena González Fernández again.  She got married again,  => Carmen Selena González de Ramírez.  Her husband died, but she chose (notice, she _*chose*_) to still be Mrs. Ramírez.  Anyway, she's just "aunt Selena" to me...


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## .   1

In Australia the general convention is for the woman to take the family name of the man when they marry.  Some people are now choosing to keep seperate names but this is not yet common.
Children are usually given two names of favoured relatives.  I am named for both of my Grandfathers.  My first name has been 'in the family' for centuries and just skips one generation at a time to avoid confusion.

Robert


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## palomnik

Probably not my business to talk about other people's customs, but here are a few tidbits to throw in the stew.

- In Hungarian, Surnames _always_ come FIRST, just as they do in Chinese and Japanese. It is not simply a bureaucratic or legal device, it's the standard way things are done. Hence, Franz Liszt is always Liszt Ferenc in Hungary. Hungarians usually switch the names around when dealing with non-Hungarians, since they realize this is not the standard practice in the rest of Europe.

- It is extremely bad form in Chinese to give a child a personal name that is the same as anybody else in the family, including (especially?) his/her parents. There is really no such thing as a "list of common Chinese given names"; anything can be used as a personal name, although there are a variety of rules that can be applied if the family prefers. Since the Chinese have only 438 surnames (I think that figure is right!) to go around for a billion people, personal names really have to be varied very much if only to be used as a way to tell people apart.

- While the practice of taking both one's mother's and father's surname in Spain and Hispanic countries is well known, it is not as well recognized that a person is free to use either his mother's or father's last name, or both together, as his usual surname. Quite a few famous Hispanics have used both, like Garcia Lorca and Ortega y Gasset. While of course the practice of using two surnames is not limited to Hispanics, it serves a useful purpose in this case; there are some extremely common Hispanic surnames, and using both names is a simple way to distinguish one's self from all the other Garcias and Ortegas. Also, not a few prominent Hispanics have preferred to use their mother's surname name alone, like Picasso (his father's surname was Ruiz).

- For some additional information on Arabic names you can look in Appendix D to http://fsi-language-courses.com/Courses/Arabic/Saudi%20Arabic%20Basic%20(Urban%20Hijazi%20Dialect)/FSI%20-%20Saudi%20Arabic%20Basic%20Course%20(Urban%20Hijazi%20Dialect)%20-%20Student%20Text.pdf


----------



## maxiogee

When we married, my wife had been Teresa McCoy. I was Tony O'Grady. We became Teresa McCoy O'Grady and Tony McCoy O'Grady.
No-one I know had done this. People who learn of my name express surprise that I changed it on marriage, usually saying "I didn't know you could do that." To which I reply "Neither did I, I judt did it!" I never did anything official about the change, but when I applied for a passport some years later they required my birth and marriage certificates. These had Anthony O'Grady on them. I applied for the passport in my 'new' name, and that's how it arrived. I suppose that they saw that if they do it for women, and it's fairly routine for them to use both names, then they would have no grounds to refuse me.
Two of our government departments, Revenue and Social Welfare, decline to change my name. I may have to do something to get them to change. I've asked, but that hasn't been enough. I think it might take a face-to-face visit with a named official so that I can threaten to take a case for sexual discrimination!

What my son might do if/when he marries will be up to him. It might be tricky if he marries someone with another two surnames!


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## Quebeca

In the prov. of Quebec, Canada (well... when I was born 28 years ago !) in everyday life people use one given name and a surname which used to be their father's. Ex: Jean Gauvin. 30 years ago, the woman generally lost her maiden name when she got married. On the birth certificates though, many of us (from my generation or older) have three given names. 

For the girls it usually starts by Marie, then the godmother's given name, then the everyday given name. For instance: Marie Jeanne Michelle Gauvin. This woman will be called Michelle in everyday life. 

For the boys it used to start with Joseph, then the godfather's name, and finally the given name itself. Eg: Joseph Robert Jean Gauvin, the current name being Jean. I don't think people do that anymore, though.

With the feminist movement also came the fact that women didn't necesarily lose their surnames when they got married. So some people chose to give their children the two surnames (most of the time, hyphenated) . Imagine the headache for a pre-schooler to spell his name when it's something like Jean-Christophe Boissonneault-Leblanc). hehe ! 

For various reasons, possibly including the fact we do not have any rule in regards of two people with each one two surnames getting married and having children, people tend to choose either the mother's or the father's surname. 

I don't know if fellow quebecers would have anything to add to this ?


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## Mate

Artrella said:


> In Argentina we inherit our father's surname, but nowadays if you want, you can add your mother's.


I do not quite agree with the banned forera. 

My wife, and many other wives as well, uses her father's surname only. 

Most of us (regardless of our gender) use only our father's surname. 

Ie: Jorge Mangialavori.

If Jorge's mom's surname were Appicchiafuoco, it is unlikely that he would call himself Jorge Mangialavori Apicchiafuoco.

It is very different if your mother's surname adds some charm or distinction to your name.

Ie: Claudio López is a quite common and somehow vulgar name. But in case that Claudio's mom's surname were Petit de Murat, then Claudio López Petit de Murat would swiftly enlarge his name to make it sound more...classy.


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## HUMBERT0

Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> Carmen Selena González de Ramírez. Her husband died, but she chose (notice, she _*chose*_) to still be Mrs. Ramírez.


In México, in any social gadering, she would called Carmen Selena González viuda(widow) de Ramírez.


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## Etcetera

Poetic Device said:


> What if the couple gets divorces?  Does  the woman drop her former husband's name?


Yes, I believe. Why keeping the name of a man you don't live with anymore?


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## Pedro y La Torre

In Ireland, like most Anglophone countries I think:

First name (whatever you want)

Middle name (not compulsory to have, again whatever you want)

Last name (father's name).

In some rare circumstances the mother's name is used, but that is rare as I've said and would probably only be used if you didn't know who the father was or something like that.


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## Valvs

*Moderator note*: Two threads on the same subject were merged starting from this post. ​

In English (and many other languages) it is common to call Federico García Lorca just "Lorca." I can understand that most English speakers, unacquainted with the Spanish naming traditions, think that "García" is just a middle name and "Lorca" is the last name. However, I have always believed that was a mistake which only a foreigner (i.e. not a native Spanish speaker) could make. But the other day I have run across the phrase "poesías de Lorca" in a Spanish textbook, focusing on teaching the "Spanish" (as opposed to Latin American) variety of Spanish. 

So, perhaps I was wrong after all, and it is okay to refer to F.G.L. in Spanish as "Lorca"?


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## srta chicken

I was told that sometimes, when a person's father's name is common and the mother's name is not, a person will go by his mother's name.  If this is true, I don't know how common this is... for example do only famous people do this, or does the "average" citizen do this too.  Native speakers?

I do not know if Lorca referred to himself as Lorca of if that happened after his death.  Could a Lorca fan weigh in?

Saludos


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## Machin

Actually, he is reffered to as García Lorca. Most famous writers are known by both last names, e.g. García Marquez, Vargas Llosa, etc. It might be a misprint.


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## SOL Y LUNA

estoy pensando en Miguel Bose (Miguel Dominguin Bose) 
   Eneste caso su madre era mucho mas conocida y bose es mas artistico,pero fue eleccion de el mismo

   En el caso de Lorca,pienso que Garcia es tan comun y hay tantos  que son las otras personas las que lo dicen asi


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## Valvs

Thanks for your replies, everyone!



srta chicken said:


> I was told that sometimes, when a person's father's name is common and the mother's name is not, a person will go by his mother's name.


An interesting theory. And SOL Y LUNA thinks it is possible. Can any other native speakers confirm or disprove it?



srta chicken said:


> I do not know if Lorca referred to himself as Lorca



Not that I know of.  But one of his poems contains the following lines:
_¡Ay Federico García,
llama a la Guardia Civil!_

And, Machin, yes, it was my belief that "García Lorca" is the proper way to refer to him in Spanish. That's exactly why I was so surprised to see just "Lorca" in a _Spanish_ text, of all things.


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## Wordsmyth

srta chicken said:


> I was told that sometimes, when a person's father's name is common and the mother's name is not, a person will go by his mother's name. If this is true, I don't know how common this is... for example do only famous people do this, or does the "average" citizen do this too. Native speakers?


 


Valvs said:


> [...] An interesting theory. And SOL Y LUNA thinks it is possible. Can any other native speakers confirm or disprove it? [...]


 
I'm not a native speaker, but I can confirm at least one other case. A Spanish colleague of mine is García Miranda. He *always* gives just Miranda as his surname (except for legal/administrative purposes), because García is so common.

Ws


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## miguel64086

In Chile it's the same than in Spain and some other countries in South America. First Name, Second Name, Father's Surname, Mother's Surname.
Juan Pablo Pérez González.

<Begin of rant>
I want to express my appreciation that you used the correct word (it's a language forum after all!).  I really don't like when people start talking about such atrocities such as " oh, you have two last names!, or what's your middle name?".  Grrrr...  That makes me cringe!  And when people ask me "what's your middle name?".  I do not have a middle name since I have four names, I do not have a middle one!  not a middle initial either.

It's my impression that where I live, in the Mid West of USA, people do not understand that other cultures have more than three names and talking about Middle names and last names doesn't make sense... and that your First name is not always your family name.
I appreciate your time reading my rant.
</end of rant>


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## Broccolicious

Venezuelan_sweetie said:


> In Venezuela, it is similar to Colombia and Argentina, although there can be some changes. Let me explain: (why is it that things always get complicated after one says that sentence? )
> 
> My friend Caro was born as Ana Carolina González Estéves.
> Ana Carolina => Given names.
> González => Father's surname.
> Estéves => Mother's surname.
> 
> She got married to Mr. Carlos Daniel Fernández Pérez. So now she lost her mother's surname and her full name is Mrs. Ana González de Fernández, the wife of Mr. Carlos Fernández. We still call her Caro, but strangers (adm. forces, her doctor's receptionist, etc) would call her Mrs. (de) Fernández.


 
Thank you - despite having Spanish relatives, I have never understood this! So if Ana and Carlos had a child, what would the child's surname be?


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## Mate

Broccolicious said:


> Thank you - despite having Spanish relatives, I have never understood this! So if Ana and Carlos had a child, what would the child's surname be?


Ana González de Fernández  X Carlos Fernández = [first name here] Fernández. (Argentina).

Ana González de Fernández  X Carlos Fernández = [first name here] Fernández González (in many other Latin American countries).


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## PABLO DE SOTO

srta chicken said:


> I was told that sometimes, when a person's father's name is common and the mother's name is not, a person will go by his mother's name. If this is true, I don't know how common this is... for example do only famous people do this, or does the "average" citizen do this too. Native speakers?
> 
> I do not know if Lorca referred to himself as Lorca of if that happened after his death. Could a Lorca fan weigh in?
> 
> Saludos


 
You can officially change the order of your surnames but few people does it. Most people who change it ,does it for personal reasons like having a very bad relationship with their father and not wanting to be recognized by their father's surname, but for practical reasons this is extremely rare( it is not very practical having had two different first surnames in one's life, it carries a lot of bureaucracy). Married women all over the world change their surname and I do not know how they manage, but in Spain we are used of having the same surnames in all our life, so changing it during one's life it is considered a complicated matter
Changing the order of your surnames because you think your first surname is very common it is also rare, it's too snobbish.
Once you get married, you can choose the mother's or the father's surname in first position for your children, but most people follow the traditional usage of father's surname first.

A different thing is what is been said by other foreros. When the first surname is very common, most people are called by the second one.
Zapatero is not José Luis Zapatero, his name is José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, but everybody call him just Zapatero and it also happens to "ordinary" people at school, work etc.


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## pickypuck

Valvs said:


> Thanks for your replies, everyone!
> 
> 
> An interesting theory. And SOL Y LUNA thinks it is possible. Can any other native speakers confirm or disprove it?


 
This is quite common. The Prime Minister of Spain is José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero and everybody calls him Zapatero, even internationally. It also happens to the former and current Presidents of Extremadura, Juan Carlos Rodríguez Ibarra and Guillermo Fernández Vara, known Ibarra and Vara, respectively, by the general public.

Other times is a personal choice. I know a couple of guys who sign their works with their second last names.

Although traditionally in Spain people had first their father's first last name and in second position, their mother's first last name, nowadays parents can change the order of last names of their children. Then, there are people who have their mother's first last name in first position, and their father's first last name, in the second one.

Cheers.


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## Wordsmyth

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> [...] Married women all over the world change their surname and I do not know how they manage [...]


 
Well, in at least some of the countries where that happens, it's very quick and painless , because the follow-on administrative procedures are relatively simple and lightweight — which is not the case everywhere!

Ws


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## mcibor

In Poland changing your name is easy.
When signing a marriage act you choose whose name should be chosen as family name. It's either husband's name (which is most popular) or wife's name or wife-husband name.
So before marriage:
She - Anna Maria Kowalska (1st name, 2nd name, surname)
He - Jan Jerzy Lisiecki

After marriage it's either
Anna Maria Lisiecka and Jan Jerzy Lisiecki
or 
Anna Maria Kowalska and Jan Jerzy Kowalski
or
Anna Maria Kowalska-Lisiecka and Jan Jerzy Lisiecki
or 
Anna Maria Kowalska-Lisiecka and Jan Jerzy Kowalski-Lisiecki

Child can inherit either name after father (most popular) or mother

I had a friend, whose mother chose the hyphenated name, and father wrote, that child gets name after mother. When he got married, he changed his name to just his father's and his wife chose his.

We avoid more that 2 surnames really, and I myself even resigned from my second name.



Poetic Device said:


> What if the couple gets divorces?  Does  the woman drop her former husband's name?


When couple divorce they usually revert to original names, and children usually get's the surname of the caring parent. So if mother was Anna Maria Kowalska and after marriage Anna Maria Kowalska-Lisiecka. They had a child Michał Adam Lisiecki. After divorce, when she got the care after her son, her name would be Anna Maria Kowalska and son's name would change to Michał Adam Kowalski.


----------



## chics

> In Chile it's the same than in *Spain* and some other countries in South America.
> First Name, Second Name, Father's Surname, Mother's Surname.
> Juan Pablo Pérez González.


*In Spain* it's Name, Father's surname, Mother's surname. Two surnames but only one name, so
Juan Pérez González. We don't understand the concepts "first name" and "second name"

Some people can have a composed name, as "José Luís", but it's not at all the most of population. Anyway, in this case we considere "José Luís" (Name), "Pérez" (Father's surname) and "González" (Mother's surname).

Now I have two little questions 


Outsider said:


> * [Portugal]*
> José Francisco Henriques Martins
> 
> green -> given name
> red -> mother's family name
> blue -> father's family name
> 
> Single girls' names have the same structure, but when a woman gets married, she often adds her husband's last name to hers. Typical Portuguese married woman's name:
> 
> Maria Leonor Henriques Martins da Silva
> 
> orange -> husband's last name


 In Spain we have two surnames but, when we have to shorten, we use the father's one (to us it's de first one). I know that in Portugal it's also the father's one (for you the second one, so I'm called by my mother's one in Portugal ) in the case of a man or a single woman...

In the case of Maria Leonor Henriques Martins da Silva, she'll be called Maria Leonor Martins or Maria Leonor da Silva? Muito obrigada.


*Second little question* :

In *France* people have normally one single surname, but I've been always told that married woman (and afterwards their children) can have both two surnames, the surname of the woman (that's, of her father) and the surname of her husband. 

I have a French friend who has been mother recently. They wanted their child to have both surnames, as they can by laws, normally. So if she is Marie Bovary and he Pierre Pompidou, the wanted to name their son Zidane Pompidou-Bovary... but they weren't able to ! But almost...

In fact, they had to put Zizou Pompidou*--*Bovary, double hyphened ! Because they were told that they can't put a *single hyphen* in order to "not confuse people, so *double hyphen* is for composed surnames (mother and father) and single hyhen is only for composed surnames (aristocratic surnames)". That's the explanation they got... Maybe to protect the boy to be killed in a guillotine in an unknown future...

- Is it normal in France or they met an excentric fonctionaire?
- Does this double hyphen in surnames exist in other countries or cultures?
- In your country, is there a law such as this in order to distinguish without doubts the "aristocratic" surnames of others?

Merci, thank you very much.


----------



## Wordsmyth

chics said:


> [...] In fact, they had to put Zizou Pompidou*--*Bovary, double hyphened ! Because they were told that they can't put a *single hyphen* in order to "not confuse people, so *double hyphen* is for composed surnames (mother and father) and single hyhen is only for composed surnames (aristocratic surnames)".
> 
> - Is it normal in France or they met an eccentric fonctionnaire?


 
chics, I have *never* come across nor heard of such a double-hyphen in France. Nor have the several French friends I've just asked. 

It sounded to me as if the fonctionnaire was more than simply eccentric, rather that he was losing his marbles — or at least that he had a twisted sense of humour and was taking the p...  — or maybe he was from an aristocratic family and invented the idea to prevent the riff-raff from getting on board!

_But then, to my great surprise, I found this. My French friends and colleagues were completely unaware of it, and generally considered it a ridiculous administrative stupidity (especially the distinction between pre-2002 single hyphen and post-2002 double hyphen, and section IV about subsequent generations : what planet are these people on?!!) — and they seriously questioned whether a Jean Dupont-Martin--Durand would ever write his name that way, or whether indeed anyone else would ... except of course that famous fonctionnaire . _




chics said:


> [...] In your country, is there a law such as this in order to distinguish without doubts the "aristocratic" surnames of others? [...]


 
Not a law, but a certain tradition was once explained to me (by a member of one of Britain's 'grand old families') concerning 'double-barrelled' surnames in the UK : If a couple decide to combine their two family names, they should write the resulting double name without a hyphen. After a few generations, they would have the "right" to put the hyphen. I suspect this is very little-known and very little-practised (if at all) these days; most people choosing to double-barrel tend to put the hyphen.

Ws


----------



## Nanon

I had never heard of that double hyphen... until today!
But in fact, if we look at the source, it looks like a longer single hyphen, not like two hyphens:








> Il faut entendre par " *double nom* " le nom qui est attribué à l’individu en application de la loi du 4 mars 2002 qui se traduit par les 2 noms séparés par un double trait d’union. Exemple : DURAND — DUMOULIN


However, when I type two hyphens (from a French keyboard, I mean) I get this: --. That sort of double hyphen is a special character. I wonder who invented that use of the double hyphen! Edit: I mean - in typography, you have different lengths of hyphens, but when typing directly or when writing by hand, it is difficult to apply these rules.


----------



## sokol

chics said:


> In fact, they had to put Zizou Pompidou*--*Bovary, double hyphened ! (...)
> 
> - Is it normal in France or they met an excentric fonctionaire?
> - Does this double hyphen in surnames exist in *other countries* or cultures?
> - In your country, is there a law such as this in order to distinguish without doubts the "aristocratic" surnames of others?


No, in Austria there is no such rule.

We also have a very few aristocratic names (they are scarce as nobility titles are outruled in Austria since 1918; I am not even sure if a noble of Habsburg-Lothringen may be called "Habsburg-Lothringen" - surely forbidden, in official documents, is *"von *Habsburg-Lothringen", but I don't know if it has to be "Habsburg" or if "Habsburg-Lothringen" is allowed).

But there is no double-hyphen rule.

Besides aristocratic double names there are also those when a couple marrying decides to bear both surnames - thus for example Helga Maier and Martin Müller changing to Helga & Martin Müller-Maier (or Maier-Müller). This is a new development and wasn't done at all before say 20-30 (50?) years (except for aristocratic names as mentioned above).


----------



## Wordsmyth

Nanon said:


> [...]
> However, when I type two hyphens (from a French keyboard, I mean) I get this: --. That sort of double hyphen is a special character. I wonder who invented that!


 
What you get *on a computer* when you type *-- *depends on the software and the options you have (or haven't!) set up. In MS Word you can choose to have two consecutive hyphens produce what you typed (--), or produce an 'en dash' (–); similarly three keystrokes can produce three hyphens (---) or an 'em dash' (—). They're standard printing characters, so presumably were invented a long time ago by some printer . _(Note to Mods: I'm honestly not off-topic. That was necessary to explain the hyphenated surname to which Nanon refers: see following )_



Nanon said:


> I had never heard of that double hyphen... until today!
> But in fact, if we look at the source, it looks like a longer single hyphen, not like two hyphens:
> [...]


 
In fact, if you look at the source, just above the part you quoted, you'll see the author puts a space to ensure he gets two separate hyphens each time. I guess he didn't know what I explained above. I presume he then forgot the space in the DURAND — DUMOULIN example and got an en dash by mistake.

But other sources I found quite clearly show that the 2002 law refers to two separate normal hyphens and no spaces.

All of which reinforces my point about the total impracticality of the 'double hyphen' rule : the post-2002 person will sometimes be Durand--Dumoulin, and sometimes Durand–Dumoulin (depending on how the computer's set up), and maybe even Durand—Dumoulin (because different character fonts produce shorter or longer en dashes)! Not to be confused with the pre-2002 single-hyphen person, who is Durand-Dumoulin (or perhaps Durand–Dumoulin if his hyphen is long enough to look like an en dash).

Ws


----------



## Nanon

In fact, I (and probably a vast majority of French speakers) would find a single n or m dash between the two names more readable, _not_ because I deliberately want to break the rules of this forum by expressing a personal opinion (_honestly_, this is not my intention!) but because the double hyphen is _never_ used in French punctuation -- unlike English! 
How confusing... I guess we will just have to get used to applying this law. Or to breaking it.


----------



## budt

In the UK a woman's surname does NOT automatically change to her husband's surname when she marries and the marriage certificate does not indicate what name she will use after marriage.

She may continue to use her maiden name, or choose to take her  husband's surname or change to a double-barrelled surname.

A woman who chooses to continue using her maiden name does not have to take any further action whatsoever and it is also her choice whether she wants to be known as Mrs or not - titles, do not appear on passports, incidentally.

Adopting a double-barrelled surname usually requires a Deed Poll. In fact, anybody can change their name to anything they wish, using a Deed Poll. This costs about 40 euros and for an extra 12 euros you can have your Deed Poll authorisation mailed to reach you the next day.


----------



## chics

Wow, thank you, merci! fr your answers and the link, how interesting! I hadn't thought of next generation...



> A la génération suivante, chaque parent ne pourra transmettre qu’un seul vocable de son nom de famille.
> Exemple : Un enfant a pour parents un père ayant comme nom *X - - Y* et une mère ayant comme nom *A - - B*, les parents pour pourront choisir comme nom de famille :
> X - -Y ou
> A - -B ou
> X - -A ou
> X - -B ou
> Y - -A ou
> Y - -B ou
> A - -X ou
> A - -Y ou
> B - -X ou
> B - -Y,
> mais aussi tout simplement
> X ou
> Y ou
> A ou
> B.
> 
> Source.


I've counted 14 options...



> In the *UK* (...) is also her choice whether she wants to be knows as Mrs or not - titles, do not appear on passports, incidentally.


Hello, in Spain, as we have the same surname whether if we are married or not, today telling someone "Miss" (_señorita, srta._) or "Mrs" (_señora, sra._) is usually not important. However, in some areas, like at workplace, it's not well considered to appel or to writte "miss" a womwn, even if she isn't married, as we can take this as she isn't taken seriously. It would be as writte _señorito_ (a little like "little mister", with some not good connotations) in a letter to a man.

_Señoritas _("mis") in Spain are now only the teachers (married or not) of little chilchen and Miss Moneypenny in 007 films. Oh, and really few very old ladies proud of being untouched yet.


----------



## PABLO DE SOTO

budt said:


> In the UK a woman's surname does NOT automatically change to her husband's surname when she marries and the marriage certificate does not indicate what name she will use after marriage.
> 
> She may continue to use her maiden name, or choose to take her husband's surname or change to a double-barrelled surname.
> 
> A woman who chooses to continue using her maiden name does not have to take any further action whatsoever and it is also her choice whether she wants to be known as Mrs or not - titles, do not appear on passports, incidentally.
> 
> Adopting a double-barrelled surname usually requires a Deed Poll. In fact, anybody can change their name to anything they wish, using a Deed Poll. This costs about 40 euros and for an extra 12 euros you can have your Deed Poll authorisation mailed to reach you the next day.


 

Interesting, I did not know it.
So if Jane Smith marries John Chapman and two weeks after the wedding she goes to a bank to open an account, and she is asked for her name, can she say Jane Chapman or Jane Smith without showing any document? or in other words , if she chooses her husband's name, must she change all her documents like passport etc.?


----------



## Outsider

chics said:


> In the case of Maria Leonor Henriques Martins da Silva, she'll be called Maria Leonor Martins or Maria Leonor da Silva? Muito obrigada.


The most common would be to call her simply Maria Silva, or Leonor Silva, depending on which given name she prefers (including the _da_ is also a matter of preference and custom).

However, since the name Silva is so ordinary, it could happen that she would be better known as Maria/Leonor Martins. 

Finally, some people are commonly referred to by _two_ last names, with given name optional: (Leonor) Martins da Silva. However, this is mostly done with men, and especially if they are public figures.


----------



## budt

PABLO DE SOTO said:


> Interesting, I did not know it.
> So if Jane Smith marries John Chapman and two weeks after the wedding she goes to a bank to open an account, and she is asked for her name, can she say Jane Chapman or Jane Smith without showing any document? or in other words , if she chooses her husband's name, must she change all her documents like passport etc.?



If she changes her name to that of her husband the marriage certificate is sufficient for the Passport Office to issue her with a new passport in that name. The same applies for other documents, such as bank accounts.

If the change is to, say, a double-barrelled name, a Deed Poll would be needed.

In the case of passports, a woman who decides to take her husband's name may apply for a passport in that name before the marriage, but it is not valid until the marriage has taken place.


----------



## Wordsmyth

Nanon said:


> In fact, I (and probably a vast majority of French speakers) would find a single n or m dash between the two names more readable,
> [...]
> the double hyphen is _never_ used in French punctuation -- unlike English!


 
I think a vast majority of English speakers would also find a single dash more normal ... and I don't think a double hyphen _is_ really a punctuation mark in English : it's another of those consequences of the computer age (or perhaps even the typewriter age?), used to represent a long dash when people can't find a way of typing an en or em dash. 

Ws


----------



## Flaminius

palomnik said:


> - In Hungarian, Surnames _always_ come FIRST, just as they do in Chinese and Japanese. It is not simply a bureaucratic or legal device, it's the standard way things are done. Hence, Franz Liszt is always Liszt Ferenc in Hungary. Hungarians usually switch the names around when dealing with non-Hungarians, since they realize this is not the standard practice in the rest of Europe.


Name switching is a common practise in referring to modern Japanese names too.  This does not apply to the names of historical figures, though.  In fact, the naming practise today is very different from the systems used in the past.  I will get back to the modern system shortly.

"Surnames first and then given names" is only an example of the Japanese (also the Chinese) way of organising things from larger units to smaller units.  Postal addresses and organisational paths are also created top-down:
ABC Prefecture, DEF City, GHI Street (often Area), ### Street address, JKL Building, ###th Floor, ###th Room.

Now, the modern Japanese names consist of a family name and a given name.  Period.  When a couple gets married, a new family registry (戸籍) is created under a single family name.  The new one can be either the husband's or the wife's family name.  This means that everyone who is married, born or adopted into the family should bear the same family name as well.  It is usually the wife who has to change the family name but well-to-do families without sons may look for a man who marries into the wife's family so they can continue the family name as well as their business, reputation and so on.


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## Blacklack

Wow! So many posts and not one about really complicated cases.

Ok, first let me tell you about patronymics.
Almost every Russian, Ukrainian or Belorussian person has three names written in his/her ID and any other document. These are first name, patronymic and last name (family name).
Family name is usually given after your father though it's not uncommon to use your mother's (or both which happens quite seldom). Or you can replace it (if you are of legal age) with anything you want.
As to patronymic it is not any middle name. It's a special form derived from your father's name only. If it's ever has been changed that was only for the reason of giving you out as descending from some ethnicity you don't want to be part of. It's extremely rare these days.

The pattern is as follows:

Your father name is Ivan Nikitin / Luka Petrov
If you're a man you are
Alexey Ivanovich Nikitin / Alexey Lukich Petrov
If you're a woman you are
Ludmila Ivanovna Nikitina / Ludmila Lukinichna Petrova

First name 
Patronymic
Last name

-ch- (ч) in patronymics like Lukinichna is always pronounced as -sh- (ш)

As far as I know Serbs and Bulgarians have patronymics as well but I'm not sure how widely they are used.

Icelanders have patronymics only and no last names (exceptions are rare). 
So if your father is Jón Stefánsson you're Fjalar Jónsson (male) or Katrín Jónsdóttir (female) that is "Jon's son" or "Jon's daughter".
I've taken this example from Icelandic name in Wiki where you can find links on articles about other "complicated" cases such as Malay or Tamil.


Now to male vs. female forms.
Eastern Slavic first name can be either male or female like in English or Spanish but it cannot be both. An exception I remember is 'Sasha' which is a diminutive for Alexandr (m) and Alexandra (f).
And it's something unheard of to name a male with a female's name or the other way round like in Spanish (*José Maria* Pemán y Pemartín).

As to family names most common types have two forms: male and female, like Petrov (m) - Petrova (f), Nikitin (m) - Nikitina (f), Slutskiy (m) - Slutskaya (f). If I'm not mistaken last names formed with other suffixes (or without any) don't have female forms.
 It doesn't matter whether female form is derived from father's or husband's last name.

Czechs have female forms for any last name which are created just by adding -ová. That is if a man is Kubeš his daughter or wife is Kubešová. Czechs add this suffix even to a last name which does have it already: Kurnikova ("Kurnikov's daughter" and theoretically "Kurnik's descendant") becomes Kurnikovová (Kurnikov + ová).
If a family name is an adjective (Novotný) its female form corresponds to the female form of this adjective (Novotná).

Poles have a similar model. The most common Polish last names can end in -ski (Kowalski, male) or -ska (Kowalska, female). Other last names which were initially adjectives follow that pattern (Podgórny - Podgórna).
On the other hand a wife or Orzeszko becomes Orzeszkowa (which is a bit archaic now, for the details see here).

The most intricate though it is with the Lithuanians. They have one male and two female forms. The form ending in -te describes someone as a daughter of man with that last name and the form ending in -ene as his wife. See here.
E.g. A daughter of Orbakas is Orbakaite but his wife is Orbakene.


All that models are something that's very hard to explain to English-, German- or Spanish-speaking people.

A Russian woman I know moved to Uruguay and her last name was registered there as Ivanova-Ivanov. She did manage to get it clear for bureaucrats that her father is Ivanov and her mother carries the same name's female form but unfortunately it couldn't be explained to their PC which has two boxes — for one's mother last name and for one's father last name. And they both are to be filled.
Russians do giggle occasionally about all that stuff. For example when they see Tatiana Golovin's name written like this (she was born in Moscow and is actually Golovina, with last syllable stressed).


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## sokol

Blacklack said:


> Wow! So many posts and not one about really complicated cases. I would have loved to explain the Russian system myself but I knew that this would have been way too difficult for me  - therefore, thank you for doing so.
> (...)
> As far as I know Serbs and Bulgarians have patronymics as well but I'm not sure how widely they are used.


Well, not quite.

Southern Slavs simply have a single surname (and one or several first names, just as in English or French or German and many other languages); they also even have those double names occasionaly, connected with a hyphen, at least in Slovenia they do (also without hyphen but essentially being the same, I think - anyway, basically the same as described by me above for Austria).
Also surnames do not change with gender (don't get a female ending) with Slovenian and BCMS; they do change in Macedonian and Bulgarian.

*Slovenia:* See here the names of Slovenian government (female: Irma, Katarina, Majda, Ljubica). There exist several names which have an old "patronymic" suffix (Pogačn*ik*, Lučn*ič*, also probably names ending with -in could fall in this category - like Kac*in* - but I am not sure if this is a derivational suffix).

*BCMS *= Bosnia-Hercegovina, Croatia, Montenegro & Serbia: The great majority of names ends with *-ić* which is a derivational suffix corresponding to Russian -ič names, but those are not changed according to gender, they are the same for men and women.
Even though there are also plenty of other names who do not contain this suffix (of whatever origin) you know at once that suffix -ić only can refer to a BCMS name.
Bosnia-Hercegovina also has names with the (Turkish) elements *Aga *and *Beg *which point to Turkish origin and should be seen as nobility names (Aga and Beg are Turkish titles).

*Macedonia:* The typical Macedonian (patronymical) suffix is *-ski* (for men) and *-ska *(for women). I do not know if this is a strict system applying to all names (of Macedonian origin of course - my guess would be that minorities living there will maintain their own naming traditions but I do not know for sure); see the official government list. This in principle is similar to the Czech system - only that another suffix is used (it is an adjective derivational suffix).
*
Bulgaria:* The typical suffix is *-ov* (for men) and *-ova* (for women); it changes to *-ev/-eva* after soft consonants which is a general rule in Slavic languages (so, nothing out of the ordinary); see this impressive list of Misses of Bulgaria (the first one, *Luba Yotzoff,* is an Anglicised version - or Germanised and then Anglicised if you prefer - and thus not representative).
Again (as with Macedonian) I do not know exactly how strictly this is handled in Bulgaria.

So with *South Slavic languages* you can easily tell by the names of the players of any sports equipe (football, volleyball, icehockey - whatever):
*-ov(a)/ev(a)* (and no patronym system like in Russian): Bulgarian
*-ski/ska:* Macedonian
*-ić:* Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin, Serbian
*- a mix *of the above plus names of other origin, all without a clear system except that *-ič* is used instead of -ić: Slovenian

There will always be a name not following this naming tradition in a sports team but except for Slovenian about 80-95% of all names will follow this principle.


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## Blacklack

sokol said:


> Well, not quite.
> 
> Southern Slavs simply have a single surname (and one or several first names, just as in English or French or German and many other languages); they also even have those double names occasionaly.


It seems you just haven't encountered Southern Slavic patronymics.
I certainly know one person whose name is usually mentioned with a patronymic — Vuk Stefanović Karadžić. Look at articles on him in English and Serbian and you'll see that his father's name was Stefan.
As for Bulgarian usage of patronymics see Bulgarian name


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## Outsider

chics said:


> In the case of Maria Leonor Henriques Martins da Silva, she'll be called Maria Leonor Martins or Maria Leonor da Silva? Muito obrigada.


Sorry, I had missed something in your question. Actually, any of the following would be possible:


(Maria) Leonor Martins (maiden last name)
(Maria) Leonor Henriques (less often, but possible, especially when the father's family name is very common)
(Maria) Leonor (da) Silva (married name)
Public figures are often referred to using two family names, sometimes without any given name. In that case you may also hear:


(Maria Leonor) Henriques Martins
(Maria Leonor) Martins da Silva
To give concrete examples, two prominent politicians in Portugal currently are Maria de Lurdes Rodrigues (given name + given name + family name), the minister of education, and Manuela Ferreira Leite (given name + family name + family name), the leader of the largest opposition party.


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## sokol

Blacklack said:


> It seems you just haven't encountered Southern Slavic patronymics.
> I certainly know one person whose name is usually mentioned with a patronymic — Vuk Stefanović Karadžić. Look at articles on him in English and Serbian and you'll see that his father's name was Stefan.
> As for Bulgarian usage of patronymics see Bulgarian name


Thank you for the link on Bulgarian names - I wasn't familiar with that at all, and you are correct that I am not familiar at all with patronymic names in Southern Slavic languages (see the article where there is mentioned, right at the beginning, that the patronymic part of the name usually is omitted): I stand corrected then, concerning Bulgarian. 
The same might be true for Macedonian (as its naming tradition is similar except a different suffix is used).

But for Serbian those patronymic names, to my knowledge, only are historical ones; yes, Vuk Stefanović Karadžić still has a patronym but I highly doubt that this still is used anywhere in BCMS region - or probably it is still used within the Orthodox Church, I'm not sure.
And this Wiki article on Serbian names confirms this - they do not even mention such patronyms as those present in the name of Vuk Stefanović Karadžić (what is mentioned there is only that they are patronymic by _origin_.)
Also it says there that in *BCMS -ov* and *-in* is also used; however I know from personal experience that in BCMS *-ić* is the ending for the vast majority of surnames.


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## chics

Thank you, Outsider.


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## Lugubert

At the time I was born, I think there were no alternatives in Sweden. Married women discarded their surname and adopted the husband's. Children had one or more given names and the father's surname. Edspecialy any second given names would often be ones that had been recurring in the family.

When I married, rules had been relaxed. You were allowed to change your given name, initially though only being helped by a lawer. My wife chose to keep her surname, which was fairly well known and unique in her home town, and I even considered taking hers. My parents weren't enthusiastic. Mother had done some genealogy on our family, and apart from other feelings, she didn't like the complications for future research. So I kept mine.

Now, there seems to be very few rules. Above all, increasingly many parents don't bother with marrying. Perhaps they flip a coin on kids' surnames being that of the father or mother; I don't know. Come to think of it, I haven't even asked my oldest niece what her boy's last name is.

There are no numbers attached to Swedish names like they sometimes do in the US, like Cornelius Vanderbilt III,except for kings. I know of one only family that once (1)used the Sr/Jr labels.

Some double names occur, especially when a woman wants to show her husband's surname while keeping her own. Some of those will be inherited unchanged. 

To quote a real example of regionally sufficiently well known people that I'm not breaching any confidentiality or other rules, the much lauded medical journalist M. de Frumerie (related to the composer) married the M.D. and professional level violoncello player T. William-Olsson. She probably could have gone for M. de Frumerie-William-Olsson (only single hyphens) or perhaps M. de Frumerie William-Olsson (I'm not certain of rules/possibilities there). She chose M. William-Olsson.


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## suma

I think that in most Arab countries married women keep their family name and do not follow the practice as in the West that a woman changes her last name upon marriage to her husband's name.
Is this universal throughout the Arab world, including Arab christians?
thanks


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## Muwahid

It's a Muslim tradition to keep your fathers (Families Name), because to take the name of your husband this is disrespectful for your family, a spouse can be temporary (i.e. divorce) but a family is forever. And taking a man's last name could indicate his "ownership" of you, which is not right. I'm not sure how Arab Christians feel about this tradition.

We derive our conclusions from this Hadith From our prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم Muhammad, "لعن الله من ادعى إلى غير أبيه", meaning "Allah has cursed those who claim to be from other than their father"

But please note many modern Arabs are ignorant to these customs, because of the westernization of most of these lands, hence you will in fact find many Arabs, including Muslims, who take their husbands names.


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## Mahaodeh

While it's true that it's an Islamic requirement to keep your family's name; but it's also an Arab tradition - part of the naming system. Actually, up to my understanding, the Hadiths you mentioned were for adoption of children as Arab women did not take their husbands' name anyway.

In Iraq and Jordan, Christian women kept their family's names too; but I don't know if there has been any imitation of the west lately.


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## Muwahid

The Hadith in question was not referring to adopted sons, you are thinking of the verse from the Quraan, ٱ*دۡعُوهُمۡ لِأَبَآٮِٕهِمۡ هُوَ أَقۡسَطُ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ*, in 33:5 defining the parentage of an orphan. This is merely referring to anyone whom assumes a name other than that of their fathers, even the Prophet (saw) called himself by the name of his fathers, like Abd al-Muttaalib, which is shirk to call yourself, except when referring to past family members.

As for women in Jordan, it is true many follow the practice but like I said many are ignorant to that fact. Many of my aunts mistakenly took their husbands name and later went to change it back to it's original name, sadly, even weddings in some Arab regions are becoming more western in customs.


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## Haroon

Even VIP ladies (Presidents, ministers, ...etc wives) follow the western habit of getting their husbands' names, still, these names are for media and " public" use. In official documentations, their original names remain as they are.
Noteworthy, if a married lady achieves a kind of success in a given business, she often keeps her family name. That is to say women _only_ "borrow" their husbands' names if the latter enjoy more fame.


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## azeid

Mahaodeh said:


> In Iraq and Jordan, Christian women kept their family's names too


That's in Egypt too, Christian Egyptian women are keeping their family names.I didn't hear that any woman changed her family name to her husband one.The only case is about presidents wives like - in Egypt - Jihan Elsadat or Susan Mubarak, but this is not to change to their names but for media as Haroon mentioned in his post.


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## emo_angel 18

This thread is very informational. My mother is a Muslim and I'm practicing Islam already but I lack knowledge. Now I know that traditionally Muslim women who were married are not entitled to adopt the last name of their husband because it was a disrespectful act. But nowadays, many are westernized in Mulsim custom..when getting married the women doesn't retain their family name but they change it with their husband lastname.


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## Masjeen

Legally (in the Arab countries) it is forbidden! This is not only religion, but even culturally, the ancient Arab pagans did the same. and of course, Islam is another topic


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## Masjeen

suma said:


> Is this universal throughout the Arab world, including Arab christians?
> thanks


 
yes and including Arab jews


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## emo_angel 18

Masjeen said:


> Legally (in the Arab countries) it is forbidden! This is not only religion, but even culturally, the ancient Arab pagans did the same. and of course, Islam is another topic


 

I see...thanks for clearing it out...


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## Zsanna

Moderator note:  At this point, two threads on the same topic have been merged.

Hello all,

Do you know of any other languages (apart from Japanese and Hungarian) where the *normal order* for people's name is family name + first name? 

I know that in France it may happen ("Dupond Jean"), nevertheless it is not the normal name order. 

Thank you.


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## Hulalessar

It happens in China.


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## Frank78

In German it occurs in official documents and similar things, e.g. "Müller, Peter". You seperate them by a comma so the reader knows the the order is vice versa.

In some dicalects you´ll hear it as well but a bit different: "Müller*s* Peter". It´s a genitive (indicated by the "s"). It means Peter of the Müller family.

Anyway the standard is "Peter Müller".


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## Grop

In France it mostly happens on official documents. Also we often (on such documents) capitalise the surname, as in DUPOND Jean.

This is clearly not everyday use.


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## Zsanna

Thank you both for your answers.

I'm not surprised by the Chinese (I needed confirmation). 
Any other languages in Asia do this?

Frank, the German situation seems to be very similar to the French, and although I would be curious to know what made certain authorities turn around the normal/ standard name order, for the moment let me use this example to remind everybody that it is really the family name+ first name = normal/standard name order interests me.


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## MOC

I can guarantee the same happens in both South and North Korea. My knowledge of cases such as these was about the same as yours (Japan, Hungary and Korea) though, so I can't help you further.


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## Epilio

In Spain the order is also inversed in official documents.


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## sokol

There's a similar topic already, where I explained*) that in Austria the same system as in Hungarian is still used; but the use of "Huber Sepp" indicates that you're from a rural region, in bigger cities (especially in Vienna and Graz) "Sepp Huber" would be preferred.

Note that "Huber Sepp" is not a form only used in documents (like what Frank78 mentioned: this too is done in Austria), this is also used in spoken language.


*) Sorry but no, I didn't explain this in that thread: I'm sure though that I've written this already somewhere, in some forum (can't remember now where that could have been ...).


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## Hakro

Frank78 said:


> In German it occurs in official documents and similar things, e.g. "Müller, Peter". You seperate them by a comma so the reader knows the the order is vice versa.
> 
> In some dicalects you´ll hear it as well but a bit different: "Müller*s* Peter". It´s a genitive (indicated by the "s"). It means Peter of the Müller family.
> 
> Anyway the standard is "Peter Müller".


Exactly the same in *Finnish*:
- Mylläri, Pekka (should always have a comma)
- Myllärin Pekka (genitive, very common)
- Pekka Mylläri (standard form)


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## palomnik

Vietnamese also puts the family name last.

If nobody has added it before, it's worth mentioning that in Indonesia people frequently have only one name, i.e., no family name at all.


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## sokol

I've found that thread where the Austrian (and Southern German) system of using "Huber Sepp" is explained - in German forum (for those interested, click here for a thread in German and click here for one in English).


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## Valeria Mesalina

Hello,

Very interesting topic. 

In Spain women always keep the family name, no matter their religion.

Maybe this is so because Spain was a Muslim country for many centuries. As far as I know in the rest of Europe women adopt their husband´s name when they marry.


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## Adolfo Afogutu

suma said:


> and do not follow *the practice as in the West that a woman changes* her last name upon marriage to her husband's name.


In various Western societies a woman inherits her birth name from her father or mother and* does not change it to match her husband’s family name*. In particular, nowadays in my culture, a change of name would be socially seen as an admission of her husband having control over her. From a legal point of view that name change is not even possible, so it could only be used for social purposes. Traces of this old custom can only be found in groups of women older than 60/65.


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## Jacobtm

A question to Mexicans: When I met people, I was often surprised at how many names they had. I often lost count, but Itzel Maria Cristina Fernandez Payen Dominguez didn't seem like an unusually large name at all. Is there any sort of trend with different sorts of people having longer or shorter names? I feel like the richer people I met tended to have more and more names, but sampling bias abounds.


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## koniecswiata

In the past, in the US women even took their husbands' first names for formal/official occasions.  It was common to hear things like "Mrs. John Smith".  Sorry if this is a little off-topic.


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## Mirlo

beatrizg said:


> In Colombia we use both surnames, as in Spain.
> 
> Regarding the surname of a married woman, she can either choose to keep hers or use her husband's.
> They can also add the word “de” before the husband’s name, as:
> Consuelo Arboleda de Acevedo
> or Consuelo de Acevedo
> 
> In the last decades most women keep their names unchanged when they get married.


 
Same thing in Panama.


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## Dmitry_86

In my country both situations can be encountered. For example, I would like my future wife to preserve her original family name so that it remains part of her personality. For some people, however, this a matter of prior importance, to have their wife's last named changed. So it is different, as you can see now. Very often celebrated people, including singers, artists, actors, etc. prefer not to change their initial family name because the audience has already got used to it. Besides, in the Soviet period some family names were recognised almost inadmissible especially those similar to Jewish. Not because people with Jewish names were oppressed or treated badly (Heaven forbid!!!), but because they could have some problems when wanting to help their children dodge the army or to enrol them at a prestigious school.


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## ayed

jmartins said:


> So, If I understand well, *Ali* is the given name, *Salim* is the father's given name, *Khalid* is the grandfather's given name, and *al-Zahrani* is something like a surname, which passes unchanged through the generations. Is that right ?


 Sorry for being too late, jmartins.
You're right.al-Zahrani is the *tribla title.*


----------



## Zsanna

palomnik said:


> Vietnamese also puts the family name last.


 
Palomnik, I would like to have confirmation. 

(That "also" is a bit confusing in view of the 3 other Asian languages that put the family name before the first name...)


----------



## jmx

ayed said:


> Sorry for being too late, jmartins.
> You're right.al-Zahrani is the *tribla title.*


  Well, as we say in Spain, "más vale tarde que nunca" (better late than never). Thank you. (  again)


----------



## mirx

Jacobtm said:


> A question to Mexicans: When I met people, I was often surprised at how many names they had. I often lost count, but Itzel Maria Cristina Fernandez Payen Dominguez didn't seem like an unusually large name at all. Is there any sort of trend with different sorts of people having longer or shorter names? I feel like the richer people I met tended to have more and more names, but sampling bias abounds.


 
Well, this person has three names plus what seem like three family names, which is actually not possible, so I presume "Payen" is part of either Dominguez or Fernandez.

In the past, if a poor man with a too common last name became rich, it wasn't unusual that his offspring would carry both his last names plus his wife's -traditionally sons keep only one last name from the father and one from the mother-.

Enrique *Perez* *Montalbo* (New rich but with common surnames)
María *Rodriguez Gonzalez* (Wife of new rich with common surnames)
Javier *Perez Montalbo* *Rodriguez* (son of new-rich Sr, Enrique, but now with an odd sounding and thus interesting new last name "Perez Montalbo" that will be passed on down the generations).

Blue means father's last name
Red means mother's last name.

At least in my city this has given rise to single last names that previously used to be two separate family names.

Álvarez del Castillo
Pérez Gavilán


Now people can alter their names and choose the one they prefer, so I don't see this being an issue much longer.

It is almost the norm to have two given names, and unlike the US people in Mexico use both all the time. Some others would use one depending on whether they are with friends or family.

Three given names is very unusual and I would say it actually links with less privileged classes, where parents may use names of artists, sport legends, or some funky word they picked on a magazine. Again, not necessarily so, just an association I would make if I was forced to make one.


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## palomnik

Zsanna said:


> Palomnik, I would like to have confirmation.
> 
> (That "also" is a bit confusing in view of the 3 other Asian languages that put the family name before the first name...)



Sorry.  I meant family name _first.  

_I must be getting senile.

As long as I'm on topic I might add that in Mongolia people also don't use family names.  If they need to be explicit in situations involving two people with the same given name, they will add the father's (or sometimes mother's) name in the genitive case, which they will place _before _their given name.


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## Zsanna

Thank you, palomnik, I'm glad we could clear that one.

I wonder if any "order" were ever set up about this whole name giving process...
Does anybody know about such a thing?


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## london calling

mirandolina said:


> In Italy, women take the husband's surname (but it's only a courtesy thing, as it has no legal validity: both my Italian and British passports are in my maiden mame), but in their profession they usually keep their own, especially doctors, school teachers and so on. You have no choice - the name on your "libretto di lavoro" (which you need to be taken on by a company in Italy) is your maiden name which by the way I prefer anyway!


Where I work, no-one knows my husband's surname (unless I've mentioned it to them) and the same thing goes for my other female colleagues.

Another thing: at the moment, when a child is born he takes his father's surname (my son and I therefore have different surnames: if we had the same surname, it would probably be assumed that either I wasn't married to his father or that his father refused to recognise the child as his own when he was born....), but I've heard that they're thinking of emending the laws. Does anybody know any more about this?


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## MOC

mirx said:


> Well, this person has three names plus what seem like three family names, which is actually not possible, so I presume "Payen" is part of either Dominguez or Fernandez.
> 
> In the past, if a poor man with a too common last name became rich, it wasn't unusual that his offspring would carry both his last names plus his wife's -traditionally sons keep only one last name from the father and one from the mother-.
> 
> Enrique *Perez* *Montalbo* (New rich but with common surnames)
> María *Rodriguez Gonzalez* (Wife of new rich with common surnames)
> Javier *Perez Montalbo* *Rodriguez* (son of new-rich Sr, Enrique, but now with an odd sounding and thus interesting new last name "Perez Montalbo" that will be passed on down the generations).
> 
> Blue means father's last name
> Red means mother's last name.
> 
> At least in my city this has given rise to single last names that previously used to be two separate family names.
> 
> Álvarez del Castillo
> Pérez Gavilán
> 
> 
> Now people can alter their names and choose the one they prefer, so I don't see this being an issue much longer.
> 
> It is almost the norm to have two given names, and unlike the US people in Mexico use both all the time. Some others would use one depending on whether they are with friends or family.
> 
> Three given names is very unusual and I would say it actually links with less privileged classes, where parents may use names of artists, sport legends, or some funky word they picked on a magazine. Again, not necessarily so, just an association I would make if I was forced to make one.



I believe that's not a feature of Mexico, but of spanish speaking countries in general (If there are ones where it doesn't happen, those are probably the exception and not the rule). 
Portugal is similar, but with the difference that the mother's surname comes first. There is also another trend which is a lot more common nowadays than it was 40 years ago, to give the child both mother and father surnames, in order for the child to carry the names of his four grandparents (I have four, my girlfriend has four, all my cousins do too). I believe the majority will still carry only two surnames though.


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## mirx

MOC said:


> There is also another trend which is a lot more common nowadays than it was 40 years ago, to give the child both mother and father surnames, in order for the child to carry the names of his four grandparents (I have four, my girlfriend has four, all my cousins do too). I believe the majority will still carry only two surnames though.


 
The trend here is inverse, I mean, I don't think it was ever a set fashion to do so, the few who did it had specific purposes; as mentioned before, the last names fused into one, so no one associated them with grandparents, in fact the objctive was to disassociate one's offspring from past backgrounds -usually poor-.

I also think that similar procedures were common in other Spanish-speaking countries.


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## Ely_wochifem

Mirlo said:


> Same thing in Panama.


 
In Ecuador is the same thing, but it's optional.


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## ElFrikiChino

I'm late, but anyway.
As Mirandolina said, the woman takes his husband's name, but it's not official. The correct signatur however should be Name Surname. We have Surname Name only in lists e.g. School registers. 
However, the mother of a close friend of mine signes with his given name, her maiden surname and her husband's surname, and the whole thing is quite long.
When a baby is born, it takes the father's surname, unless his father doesn't recognize his son/daughter.

I don't know if any Icelandic person answered, but the "thing" after the given name is not a surname, it's simply your father's given name + (s)son (if you're a male) or -(s)dóttir (if you're a female). I'm not sure about the "s". So in Iceland there's no surname at all


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## Hulalessar

ElFrikiChino said:


> I don't know if any Icelandic person answered, but the "thing" after the given name is not a surname, it's simply your father's given name + (s)son (if you're a male) or -(s)dóttir (if you're a female). I'm not sure about the "s". So in Iceland there's no surname at all



A "surname" is a name added to your given name. What is added to your name in Iceland is not a family name, but a patronymic or matronymic, but it is still a surname.


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## xmarabout

In Belgium, there was a law a few years ago: so far, a new born baby received the last name of his/her father and one or more first names. Now, the parents can choose which name (lastname) they will give: the one of the father, the one of the mother or both... It will be a nightmare for the genealogists in the future... Anyway the whole brotherhood will have the same name (the parents can choose only for the first child of the couple).


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## Rallino

In Turkey, when a couple gets married, the woman usually takes the husband's surname; but if she chooses not to, she doesn't change it. However the children always receive father's surname.


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## chics

One other sujet (I don't know if it needs a new thread...): *In which countries (sauf special or rare cases) women keep their parents surnames and not take their husband one?*

We've said Portugal, Spain, Iceland, Egipt, Saudi Arabia, some countries in America, etc. Which others?


Countries where women have not an own surname, so they keep fisrt their father's one after their husband, are: EUA, Canada, Australia, UK, Ireland, Germany, Austria, France, Belgium, Switzerland... which others?


What about African and Asian countries? I think having understood that in eslave countries women keep their names, is it ok? Could you please correct or confirm? Which of them?


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## xmarabout

Today more and more Belgian women keep their own name (their original first name) in their job, in their business, etc. My wife only use my name when she speaks as mother of our children otherwise (and we are legally married) she is known under her own name. I think it is the same in France, Switzerland, Germany, The Netherlands.

Another fact is that very often the couple is not legally married then everybody keeps his/her own name


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## london calling

chics said:


> *In which countries (sauf special or rare cases) women keep their parents surnames and not take their husband one?*
> 
> We've said Portugal, Spain, Iceland, Egipt, Saudi Arabia, some countries in America, etc. Which others? Italy. If they refer to me as Mrs (husband's surname) it's either because they're using it as a courtesy title or because they don't know my surname! My "married" name has no legal validity.


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## MOMO2

jmartins said:


> Hello, I need information about how the name of a person is formed in each country or culture. I have searched on the Internet, but I've come up with very little. This is what I know :
> 
> In Spain we have 2 surnames, not just one, and this seems to be confusing to foreigners. The first one comes from your father, the second one from your mother, and if you have children, they will inherit your first surname. Also, women do not change their surname when they marry.
> 
> In Portugal it is like in Spain, except that the mother's surname comes first, and then the father's one.
> 
> In most of Europe, and the USA, there is just one surname, that of your father. In the USA they have also the middle name, but I'm not quite sure about how it works. And it seems women always adopt their husband's surname.
> 
> I've heard that in Iceland, the surname is based on your father's given name, not in his surname. Something similar might apply to arab countries.
> 
> Please tell me what do you know about this, or either send me a link to some information related to the subject. Thank you


Here is what I know:
In Greece surnames are female or male driven: Rigopoulos for a man, Rigopoulou for a woman. So two syblings being a girl and a boy, do not have the same name. The family name is the same but it varies a bit.

In Bulgary women have their father's name in the female version plus their husband's name also in female. If their husband is a foreigner the name does not change. See 

In Italy: I am a married woman. When people address to me they can call me 

Signora + my (father's) surname (they know me, we are not friends)
Signora + my husband's surname (they know me as belonging to my present family)
Dottoressa + my (father's) surname (at work)
Name (they know me informally but are not my friends)
Momo (we are close friends)
People started calling me Signorina when I was 14 and stopped ... when I looked 30 (that is when I was 40 and already married ! ) 
Janitors, nannies, people working at home for the family called me Signorina+name" when I was even younger than 14 but this sounded ridiculous to my friends.


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## chics

Thank you.


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## Angelo di fuoco

In medieval Hungary noble women kept their family name even in marriage.


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## Mahaodeh

chics said:


> One other sujet (I don't know if it needs a new thread...): *In which countries (sauf special or rare cases) women keep their parents surnames and not take their husband one?*
> 
> We've said Portugal, Spain, Iceland, Egipt, Saudi Arabia, some countries in America, etc. Which others?



Make that all Arab countries. Very few (such as Lebanon and Egypt) use their husbands name in social settings; however even in those this name has no legal recognition - legally she has one name, the one she was born with. 



chics said:


> What about African and Asian countries? I think having understood that in *eslave* countries women keep their names, is it ok? Could you please correct or confirm? Which of them?



Is the underlined red word a spelling mistake?


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## Rallino

Mahaodeh said:


> *eslave*
> 
> Is the underlined red word a spelling mistake?



Yes. He means: _slavic_.


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