# Boys Club



## bloop123

Ciao a Tutti!

Vorrei tradurre la parola 'Boys club' in italiano.

Riguarda una cultura spesso sottile in una compagnia o un campo di lavoro come la legge o il commercio che favorisce gli uomini rispetto alle donne. Questo non riguarda solo le promozioni 'tetto di cristallo' 'glass ceiling' ma anche sentirsi inclusi nel posto di lavoro.

Vorrei dire

'After a period of time the boys club that serves as a barrier for women, will go away...'

'Dopo un certo tempo, il ’boys club’ che esiste come barriera per le donne, andrà via...'


----------



## ohbice

bloop123 said:


> 'After a period of time the boys club that serves as a barrier for women, will go away...'
> 'Dopo un certo tempo, il ’boys club’ che esiste come barriera per le donne, andrà via...'


Ciao bloop. Il mio tentativo è "Trascorso un'altro po', quel sodalizio tra uomini che costituisce una barriera per le donne andrà in fumo".
Potrebbe esserci qualcosa di più letterale, però. Ti invito ad attendere altri suggerimenti.
Ciao
p


----------



## BristolGirl

Ciao Bloop123 e ohbice, 
Bello il 'sodalizio tra uomini' !! Trasmette il concetto del 'membership' del 'boys club'.
Io ho sempre usato 'Boys Club' in quanto le 2 parole sono conosciute agli italiani. 
Ma frequento molti italiani sia nel mondo del lavoro che privatamente che conoscono le lingue, o almeno le parole chiavi. Se dovessi tradurre il concetto vero per trasmettere di più la sfumatura dell'esclusività - userei il 'sodalizio' di ohbice ma potrei provare anche con i seguenti tentativi:
- quel club esclusivo 'per soli uomini' che da sempre crea una barriera per le donne nel mondo del lavoro, sparirà
- il circolo esclusivo 'per soli uomini' etc etc
- la combutta dei maschi che si erge da barriera
- i privilegi maschili che formano una barriera
Funzionerebbero ??


----------



## sorry66

You could also talk about 'male bonding'. 'cameratismo fra uomini'?


----------



## ohbice

Cameratismo _*tra uomini*_? da quando esiste un cameratismo tra donne? 
A parte le battute maschiliste, sono indeciso se usarlo qui... il significato non è distante, ma il cameratismo non è un club, non è un'associazione... non so.
E poi non credo it will go away...
Ciao 
p


----------



## sorry66

The 'boys club' is not an actual club like a 'gentlemen's club'! It's just guys getting pally with each other, talking about 'guy' things and shutting out the women.
A kind of unofficial 'mutual appreciation society'!


----------



## joanvillafane

I would not use "Boys Club" with capital letters. It sounds like the name of a respectable organization (Boys and Girls Clubs of America).  
What bloop is talking about is also called "the old boys' club."


----------



## sorry66

'The old boys' network' (or club) is something different:
"an informal system through which men are thought to use their positions of influence to help others who went to the same school or university as they did, or who share a similar social background."

This is just about the affinity of males for other males in a work setting.

Edit: Just to put in the brackets ().


----------



## joanvillafane

bloop?? isn't that what you were talking about????


----------



## sorry66

Bloop hasn't used 'boys club' in capital letters! (apart from in the title)
I think it's about 'male bonding' in general; it's obvious, though, that there'll be stronger bonding between 'old boys'.


----------



## ohbice

sorry66 said:


> The 'boys club' is not an actual club like a 'gentlemen's club'! It's just guys getting pally with each other, talking about 'guy' things and shutting out the women.
> A kind of unofficial 'mutual appreciation society'!


Hai ragione.
Resta il fatto che il cameratismo per me è una cosa buona, nutro qualche dubbio sull'utilità di un suo uso qui. 
Può anche darsi sia un problema solo mio.
Ciao
p


----------



## sorry66

'Bonding', in general,  is a good thing. From a purely technical point of view, 'male bonding' is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_bonding
However, it is perceived negatively by some woman; especially when you consider some of the topics over which men bond.
Here is a case in point:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...ace-is-used-by-men-to-bond-says-academic.html


----------



## Anja.Ann

Ciao a tutti 

I like P's "sodalizio", but also BG's "combutta" is very nice! 
As an alternative "coalizione maschile che fa da barriera ..."?


----------



## sorry66

How about 'confraternita'?


----------



## MR1492

Anja.Ann said:


> Ciao a tutti
> 
> I like P's "sodalizio", but also BG's "combutta" is very nice!
> As an alternative "coalizione maschile che fa da barriera ..."?



If I read the definitions correctly, _sodalizio _is a bit more of a friendly group (note: our churches have "Sodality" groups which are very friendly which is undoubtedly related) whereas _combutta _appears to have a much more negative meaning.  I think that negative feeling needs to stay.  It's almost the "mafia degli ragazzi anziani."

Phil


----------



## sorry66

MR1492 said:


> It's almost the "mafia degli ragazzi anziani."


A 'boys club' is not the same as 'the old boys' network'.


----------



## bloop123

\


sorry66 said:


> 'Bonding', in general,  is a good thing. From a purely technical point of view, 'male bonding' is this:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_bonding
> However, it is perceived negatively by some woman; especially when you consider some of the topics over which men bond.
> Here is a case in point:
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...ace-is-used-by-men-to-bond-says-academic.html



Hi everyone. Thanks for your replies. 

I wanted to convey the negative connotations associated with the way that some men bond with each other which may lead to women feeling excluded in the workplace. like in this article. It's a situation that can be associated with other forms of discrimination and can be a contributing factor to a 'glass ceiling', where women find it more difficult to be promoted/make connections.


----------



## ohbice

MR1492 said:


> If I read the definitions correctly, _sodalizio _is a bit more of a friendly group (note: our churches have "Sodality" groups which are very friendly which is undoubtedly related) whereas _combutta _appears to have a much more negative meaning.  I think that negative feeling needs to stay.  It's almost the "mafia degli ragazzi anziani."
> Phil


Ciao Phil, lo aveva già sottolineato sorry al post 6. A me non dispiaceva pensare a _club _come a luogo di connessione, se non spirituale, almeno di intenti, ma se continuate a farmelo notare forse c'è qualcosa che non va


----------



## MR1492

sorry66 said:


> How about 'confraternita'?



I like this one very much!  Good suggestion.  I think it carries a very nice mixture of a good idea gone bad.



sorry66 said:


> A 'boys club' is not the same as 'the old boys' network'.



I thought that in the context first described that they were close enough.  Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Phil


----------



## Anja.Ann

Ciao, Sorry 

"Confraternita" is a good choice, too!

Actually, I think there are many terms that can do ("mafia" too, Phil ).

While "sodalizio", "confraternita", "coalizione", "alleanza", but also "lega", "fronte",  are neutral and may have positive or negative connotation depending on the context, "mafia" always carries a strongly negative connotation.  
I agree with you, Phil. I'd say that "combutta", but also "congrega", "consorteria", "cricca", "clan" ... usually add a derogatory nuance (unless, of course, used ironically).


----------



## bloop123

*confraternita* _nf_ (congregazione) brotherhood, guild _n_
   (_religious_) confraternity _n_

_?? This seems quite different quite different, too formal/official

Although I do like combutta 'cahoots' 

Ecco il mio tentativo

Trascorso un'altro po', gli uomini in cambutta con l'un l'altro, costituisce una barriera per le donne. Spero che questo fenomeno andrà via. _


----------



## Lorena1970

Direi semplicemente "il potere maschile". Così fui corretta in una lettera in cui traducevo letteralmente con "male power". Ovvero mi fu detto che "male power" in quel contesto si diceva "boys club", espressione meno aggressiva ed esplicita, e quindi più elegante e ad hoc.


----------



## ohbice

MR1492 said:


> I like this one very much!  Good suggestion.  I think it carries a very nice mixture of a good idea gone bad.


Ciao Phil. Da dove derivi l'idea che confraternita sia qualcosa che finisce male?
A me risulta essere un termine abbastanza neutro...
Ciao
p


----------



## Anja.Ann

bloop123 said:


> _Ecco il mio tentativo
> 
> Trascorso un'altro po', gli uomini in cambutta con l'un l'altro, costituisce una barriera per le donne. Spero che questo fenomeno andrà via. _


 
Ciao, Bloop 

I'm afraid this is not correct. I think all the above suggestions could do and it's probably a matter of personal preference. If you want to use "combutta", then you could say "Spero che, col tempo, la combutta maschile che erge barriere contro le donne, abbia fine."
Anyway, "combutta" does not necessarily imply the idea of a real "united front" which lasts over time. If it were up to me, I think I'd use "coalizione" (a sort of "pact") since it better conveys, in my opinion, the abstract idea of this male "united front" against women, but I do think it's a pure matter of personal taste.


----------



## King Crimson

MR1492 said:


> It's almost the "mafia degli ragazzi anziani."
> 
> Phil


 
Ciao Phil


----------



## sorry66

There seems to be a repeated allusion to the idea of an 'old boys' network' in this thread. ( I gave the definition in post #8.)
This is different from a 'boys club' where all men have the possibility of being admitted ( not just a privileged set of men which is what an'old boys' network' implies). _If you look like a man and you act like a man then you're i_n!

Men, wittingly or unwittingly, collude by their very maleness  (their male inclinations) to form alliances that exclude women. A kind of 'cronyism' (clientelisimo) is what results.
You can call it a tacit pact or tacit power  (and, sometimes, it's not so tacit) the result is the same - women are frozen out.

I suggested the word 'confraternita' because of its neutrality (and the ironic quality). 'Coalizione' seems quite neutral too.

'il potere maschile' doesn't quite describe the 'buddy fest' (or 'the mutual appreciation society' /the 'male bonding' referred to in my earlier posts) implicit in the term 'boys club'.

Edit: _“Let me tell you about my trouble with girls,” the 72-year-old told the audience in South Korea. “Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry."_

Sir Tim started a controversy with the above comments ('male bonding' article from the Telegraph - link posted in #12) 
If he can say this openly in public, it reveals something about what his attitude has been during his working life: he prefers the company of men.


----------



## MR1492

ohbice said:


> Ciao Phil. Da dove derivi l'idea che confraternita sia qualcosa che finisce male?
> A me risulta essere un termine abbastanza neutro...
> Ciao
> p



ohbice,

Is stupidity a valid response?

Phil


----------



## Lorena1970

MR1492 said:


> "_How about confraternita?_" -  I like this one very much!  Good suggestion.  I think it carries a very nice mixture of a good idea gone bad.



I am not sure that "confraternita" properly conveys the concept, as it has a religious hue which in Italian doesn't work that well in my view...

"'After a period of time the boys club that serves as a barrier for women, will go away.."
"Dopo un certo tempo, il _club maschile_ che si oppone alle donne sparirà..."

I keep thinking that this is one of those cases where the best is to keep the original term " boys club", or translate it literally. My view.


----------



## sorry66

If only we'd known that we could have used 'club maschile' right from the start!


----------



## ohbice

Lorena1970 said:


> ... or translate it literally.


Noooo!


----------

