# è/é



## Otter

Can someone clear up my confusion about the above title.  What's the difference between è and é ?

Grazie.


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## Moogey

As I understand it both are correct, but I prefer è because I see it most often. To be honest, é really annoys me, even though it's not technically wrong (I think).

Note that in the word perché, however, it should be like that.

-M


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## Otter

Moogey said:
			
		

> As I understand it both are correct, but I prefer è because I see it most often. To be honest, é really annoys me, even though it's not technically wrong (I think).
> 
> Note that in the word perché, however, it should be like that.
> 
> -M


 
Okay. What annoys you about it?  And is perche' the only word you can think of where it's not interchangeable?  Thanks.  (this is fascinating, by the way)


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## Moogey

I do believe so... it just annoys me because I'm not used to seeing it that way so it looks odd. I see è 99% of the time, and when I see é it sticks out like a sore thumb 

-M


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## emma1968

The choose is not a matter of taste!
It depends from the sound 
"è" the sound is opened 
"é" the sound is (closed ???)

E.G.
A:  "Perch*é* sei triste?" 
B: "Oggi *è* un giorno terribile per me, tutta la mia vita sta andando a rotoli"


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## Moogey

emma1968 said:
			
		

> The choice is not a matter of taste!
> It depends from the sound
> "è" the sound is opened
> "é" the sound is (closed ???)
> 
> E.G.
> A:  "Perch*é* sei triste?"
> B: "Oggi *è* un giorno terribile per me, tutta la mia vita sta andando a rotoli"


Isn't that when being technical? Or are most words with e's and an accent mark just opened sounds? Because I've only seen é (outside this forum) on the word perché.

-M


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## Otter

Thanks, Emma.  

If one is not speaking; if one is writing, what's the difference in meaning?

'è vero' means "is true"?  and 'é vero' means "is true"?  Or . . . . not?

Thanks so much.


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## emma1968

> Or are most words with e's and an accent mark just opened sounds?


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## Moogey

Otter said:
			
		

> Thanks, Emma.
> 
> If one is not speaking; if one is writing, what's the difference in meaning?
> 
> 'è vero' means "is true"?  and 'é vero' means "is true"?  Or . . . . not?
> 
> Thanks so much.



Well then, based on Emma's responses, the accent mark doesn't change the word, it just changes the sound. But most words have opened sounds (è)

-M


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## emma1968

Otter said:
			
		

> Thanks, Emma.
> 
> If one is not speaking; if one is writing, what's the difference in meaning?
> 
> 'è vero' means "is true"?  and 'é vero' means "is true"?  Or . . . . not? *The latter is grammatically wrong*
> 
> Thanks so much.


The meaning is the same.


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## emma1968

There is also "né" with a not opened sound

"Non voglio n*é* questo n*é* quello."


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## Otter

emma1968 said:
			
		

> Yes, "è vero" means "it's true".


 
Thank you.  And e' vero also means "it's true"?


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## Moogey

Otter said:
			
		

> Thank you.  And e' vero also means "it's true"?



Otter, sorry to add more confusion, but please see my post here http://forum.wordreference.com/showpost.php?p=1188801&postcount=16

-M


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## emma1968

Otter said:
			
		

> Thank you.  And e' vero also means "it's true"?



I just changed my post "10", give a look!


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## Saoul

Non *è* vero
Perch*é* 
Disse tra s*é* e s*é*
Non voglio n*é* questo n*é* quest’altro. 

By a grammar point of view, this is what you HAVE to write.
The reason why you don't see a lot of "é" around, is only laziness.
"è" has a standard key, on Italian keyboards, while "é" is "shift+è".
If you use "Windows Office" or other programs with "automatic correction", you will have "perch*è*" changed into "perch*é*" by your computer.
But if no "automatic correction system" is available, and you are lazy (as I am actually), you don't press the "shift+è" key, in order to generate é when necessary, you mispell the word.

Wow that was very hard. I hope it is clear, despite my... how can I call it? Despite me!


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## Moogey

Tutto chiaro, Saoul. Mi diverti! (="you amuse me", non è vero?)

-M


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## brian

I'm not sure if we're talking about the letter _è/é_ or the word _è (is)._  When saying the word "is" (3rd person singular present indicative form of _essere_), it is *always* _è_, and never _é_.  If I am wrong on this point, I think I will just stick with English!

As for the letter _e_, whether it has a grave (`) or acute (', as in _é_) depends on the word and how the word is pronounced.  This is what _A Reference Grammar of Modern Italian _says:



> The most commonly used accent in Italian is the grave (`), which can safely be used wherever a written accent is required.  But there is a convention (by no means consistenly followed) that an accent is written acute (') on the vowel [e] (_this means closed_ _e_), and grave on [ε] (_this means open e_), which is why _né, sé, perché _are usually written with an accute, but _è_ with a grave.


The word for "is" is _è_ and is always pronounced open, so it has the grave; the word for "and" is _e_ and is pronounced closed and so conventionally does not require an accent.  SO...I suppose if you ever did see _é_, it would probably signify "and," possibly so as to differentiate between "is"; but I could hardly see someone having to do this.  Moreover, the accents on _né_ and _sé_ are important not only for pronunciation, but especially for distinguishing between the particle _ne_ and the Italian word for "if"--_se_--as well as whenever the word _si_ must be changed to _se_.  Same goes for distinguishing _da _(preposition) from _dà (he gives), di_ (prep.) from _dì (day)_, etc.


Brian


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## Saoul

Moogey said:
			
		

> Tutto chiaro, Saoul. Mi diverti!  (="you amuse me", non è vero?)
> 
> -M


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## Otter

Saoul said:
			
		

> Non *è* vero
> Perch*é*
> Disse tra s*é* e s*é*
> Non voglio n*é* questo n*é* quest’altro.
> 
> By a grammar point of view, this is what you HAVE to write.
> The reason why you don't see a lot of "é" around, is only laziness.
> "è" has a standard key, on Italian keyboards, while "é" is "shift+è".
> If you use "Windows Office" or other programs with "automatic correction", you will have "perch*è*" changed into "perch*é*" by your computer.
> But if no "automatic correction system" is available, and you are lazy (as I am actually), you don't press the "shift+è" key, in order to generate é when necessary, you mispell the word.
> 
> Wow that was very hard. I hope it is clear, despite my... how can I call it? Despite me!


 
Darling Saoul,

I may die from this.   What do you mean by non *è* vero?


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## Saoul

It is not true.

Io sono
tu sei
*egli/ella/esso è*
noi siamo
voi siete
essi sono

I am
you are
*he/she/it is*
we are
you are
they are

Otter, I'm afraid I don't understand what problem you are trying to solve.
Please, tell Saoul and Emma (and everybody else). We will try to solve it.


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## Moogey

Grazie, Saoul. Qualche volta i verbi transitivi non corrispondono a quelli inglesi (almeno per quanto riguarda la coniugazione e il complemento oggetto)

P.S. - Saoul, credo che la "è" confonda Otter nella questa frase 

-M


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## Otter

brian8733 said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if we're talking about the letter _è/é_ or the word _è (is)._ When saying the word "is" (3rd person singular present indicative form of _essere_), it is *always* _è_, and never _é_. If I am wrong on this point, I think I will just stick with English!
> 
> As for the letter _e_, whether it has a grave (`) or acute (', as in _é_) depends on the word and how the word is pronounced. This is what _A Reference Grammar of Modern Italian _says:
> 
> "Open" _e_ means you pronounce in a more _long_ manner, kind of like the -_ay_ in _day_. "Closed" _e_ means you pronounce it in a more _short_ manner, like the _e_ in _bed_. The word for "is" is _è_ and is always pronounced open, so it has the grave; the word for "and" is _e_ and is pronounced closed and so conventionally does not require an accent. SO...I suppose if you ever did see _é_, it would probably signify "and," possibly so as to differentiate between "is"; but I could hardly see someone having to do this.
> 
> 
> Brian


 
Thanks so much, Brian. That's very helpful.  Now, I'm holding my breath (under water) waiting for all-coffeed-up Saoul to tell me what Non è vero means.


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## emma1968

Saoul said:
			
		

> Non *è* vero
> Perch*é*
> Disse tra s*é* e s*é*
> Non voglio n*é* questo n*é* quest’altro.
> 
> By a grammar point of view, this is what you HAVE to write.
> The reason why you don't see a lot of "é" around, is only laziness.
> "è" has a standard key, on Italian keyboards, while "é" is "shift+è".
> If you use "Windows Office" or other programs with "automatic correction", you will have "perch*è*" changed into "perch*é*" by your computer.
> But if no "automatic correction system" is available, and you are lazy (as I am actually), you don't press the "shift+è" key, in order to generate é when necessary, you mispell the word.
> 
> Wow that was very hard. I hope it is clear, despite my... how can I call it? Despite me!



Non potevi spiegarlo meglio!
In realtà stavo  pensando a quante ce ne sono   aperte e quante chiuse, e mi sa che alla fine sono più le chiuse che quelle aperte


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## Moogey

Otter said:
			
		

> Now, I'm holding my breath (under water) waiting for all-coffeed-up Saoul to tell me what Non è vero means.



Well I can tell you this:

"Non è vero" by itself means "It's not true"

The way I used it in my question means "right?"

For example, "Le erbe sono verdi, non è vero?" means "The grass is green, right?"

-M


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## brian

Otter said:
			
		

> Thanks so much, Brian. That's very helpful.  Now, I'm holding my breath (under water) waiting for all-coffeed-up Saoul to tell me what Non è vero means.


Prego! 

On the previous page of this thread, Saoul responded with a little chart of the present tense of the verb _essere/to be._  If you look at the third one from the top, you will find _è_, which corresponds to _he/she/it is_.  Knowing that _Non_ means _not_ and that _non_ precedes the verb it is negating, and knowing that _vero_ means _true_, we can safely say that:

_Non è vero = It's not true_


Brian


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## Saoul

Moogey said:
			
		

> Well I can tell you this:
> 
> "Non è vero" by itself means "It's not true"
> 
> The way I used it in my question means "right?"
> 
> For example, "L'erba è verde, non è vero?" means "The grass is green, right?"
> 
> -M


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## Moogey

Saoul, so is that how you distinguish between grass and herbs? I was just about to make a thread about that!

-M


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## Saoul

If you open a thread, I will answer you there (I'm afraid this will be called "Saoul's Off Topic Day" from now on.


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## Otter

Okay, you guys. Thank you so much. It's been REAL. And, yes, you are SMOKIN'

Actually, I appreciate the explanation. Saoul, my original question was settled earlier. But when you used, non è vero in your later post, I thought you were disagreeing that è vero means "is true". I didn't catch "Right?" (but I think you've guessed that by now.)

Anyway, Otter is off to dreamland. It's 3 a.m. here and Elvis the Cat is fed up with my being tethered to a keyboard.

Thanks to all of you, Emma, Moogey, Brian, et al. 

kisses, Otter.


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## emma1968

> Thanks to all of you, Emma, Moogey, Brian, et al.
> 
> kisses, Otter


 You're welcome and sweet dreams"


Edit: I just changed "you are welcome" in "You're welcome" since in the first way it seems odd (as Saoul made me aware)


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## Saoul

Emma, per la carità di Dio, leggi questo thread.
E' venuto fuori un pandemonio perchè ho scritto come te "You are welcome".


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## brian

Saoul said:
			
		

> Emma, per la carità di Dio, leggi questo thread.
> E' venuto fuori un pandemonio perchè ho scritto come te "You are welcome".


Haha..."per la carità di Dio"!  Nel contesto di quel thread, penso che quel idioma sia perfettamente adatto e spassoso.  E hai avuto ragione:



			
				Saoul said:
			
		

> We are a Catholic Country, here. God is quite everywhere, so we have loads of similar expressions.




Brian


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## moodywop

There was a heated discussion on this subject several months ago but I can't find it.

First of all let me say that I believe that we should write _caffè,cioè, sé, perché, né._ We should have a standard accent marking system we all stick to.
(Some scholars suggested using an accento grave in _là _because _/a/_ is an open vowel and an accento accunto in _lì _and _più _because /i/ and /u/ are closed vowels but that's certainly going too far! - I think the accento grave should be used on _ì, ò, à _and_ ù_, since after all final -ò is always open)

Some Italians from the North (was it Silvia?) argued that they couldn't see why they should write _perché _(which reflects Tuscan pronunciation) when they actually pronounce it _perchè._

I'm perfectly aware that my stance is contradictory since I advocate following Tuscan pronunciation in writing _è _or _é _but (as I've argued in SI) I firmly believe that we can't expect Italians to conform to the Tuscan pronunciation of _e, o, s, zz (_which is what some Crusca scholars used to argue until the sixties). Apart from well-known pairs like _pésca (fishing) _vs _pèsca (peach) _or _rosa_ with an open _ò _and voiced _s_ (a rose) vs _rosa _with a closed _o _and an unvoiced _s_ (from the verb "rodere") how are Italians from other regions know that, for example, _inglese _is /in'glése/ and _francese _is /_fran'céze/ _in Tuscan pronunciation?

EDIT: Brian, I don't think seeing _è _as similar to the English sound in _ay _helps (actually I think _ay _sounds more like é_). _The best thing, of course, is to listen carefully to recordings or native speakers.
However I would say that _é _is sort of halway between the vowels in "bed" and "bid". On the other hand _è _is considerably more open than English "e" in "bed"


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## emma1968

Adesso sono sicura che mi inimicherò tutti voi italiani.
Carlo, non so se ho  colto il 100% di tutto quello che hai detto, quindi  non  biasimarmi  se mi è sfuggito qualcosa. ( I tuoi discorsi sono così complessi  per il mio povero inglese)
Ad ogni modo io non penso sia una questione di "pronuncia toscana" ma semplicemente di  "corretta dizione".


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## brian

moodywop said:
			
		

> EDIT: Brian, I don't think seeing _è _as similar to the English sound in _ay _helps (actually I think _ay _sounds more like é_). _The best thing, of course, is to listen carefully to recordings or native speakers.
> However I would say that _é _is sort of halway between the vowels in "bed" and "bid". On the other hand _è _is considerably more open than English "e" in "bed"


 Yes, you are quite right indeed.  I realize now that I was mixing up my terminology of "open" and "closed"--what I said was backwards.  This is from the first site that popped up on Google for "Italian pronunciation":



> Open _e_ makes the sound of English short _e_, as in _bet_.  Long [by which he means "closed"] _e_ makes a sound like the _a_ in _chaotic_.  It's not the same as the much more common  (in English) vowel sound in _way_ since this slides from the sound we're  looking for into _ee_.


 So even if you switch the terms and keep my examples, then at least according to this site my _day_ example is still a little off.  That's the one thing about spending so much time on WR--my reading comprehension, vocabluary retention, grammar, etc. have all sky-rocketed, but my pronunciation and listening comprehension still leave much to be desired...


Brian


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## moodywop

emma1968 said:
			
		

> Adesso sono sicura che mi inimicherò tutti voi italiani.
> Carlo, non so se ho colto il 100% di tutto quello che hai detto, quindi non biasimarmi se mi è sfuggito qualcosa. ( I tuoi discorsi sono così complessi per il mio povero inglese)
> Ad ogni modo io non penso sia una questione di "pronuncia toscana" ma semplicemente di "corretta dizione".


 
Ho solo un attimo ma volevo proprio aggiungere che su questa questione mi trovo in disaccordo con altri iscritti (come te e winnie, ad esempio) con cui in genere "I see eye to eye" 

Come ho spiegato in SI, in Gran Bretagna è considerato normale che, ad esempio, Panjandrum (di Belfast) o uno scozzese pronuncino tutte le -r- (a differenza della RP riportata nei dizionari) e "dance" col suono di "bad" e nessuno si sognerebbe di dirgli che la loro pronuncia non è corretta (infatti ne ho discusso con Panji e lui mi ha detto che manderebbe a quel paese chiunque sostenesse che la sua pronuncia non è corretta ) Il concetto di "standard" viene limitato a grammatica e lessico. 
In pratica io considero errato "èdile" ma non il mio _pésca. _Sto proprio per andare a fare la spesa. Se dicessi al mio fruttivendolo "mi dà due chili di *pèsche?*" penserebbe che io non stia bene!

C'è una ragazza di Firenze che abita qui vicino. Quando ne ho discusso con lei mi ha detto che non vorrebbe mai che il suo ragazzo (di qui) parlasse come lei. "La varietà è bella".

C'è poi un altro discorso da fare. In linguistica si parla di "sistema fonologico": pronuncia dei suoni, ritmo e intonazione fanno parte di questo "sistema". Avendo studiato fonetica, potrei anche eliminare con facilità tutti i suoni che mi identificano come meridionale ma la mia cadenza rimarrebbe meridionale. Mica sono un attore! (e poi il miscuglio di _e,o,s_ toscane e di cadenza meridionale suonerebbe ridicolo!)

Naturalmente parlo della gente comune come me. Come debbano parlare giornalisti e presentatori in TV è tutto un altro discorso, in cui non mi addentro.

PS Elisa, che ha sentito la mia voce al telefono, dice che ho "un accento napoletano snob"


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## Saoul

Far from having a perfect italian pronunciation, I would like to say, that in writing we need to all stick to a general rule. 
It is quite non-sense that words are written differently, in the North of Italy, because we pronounce it in a different way, or in the South because they pronounce it in a different way.
The word is what it is, and it has to be at least written as it is wherever.
No way, I can write sigarétta, biciclétta, cotolétta, just because I'm not able to pronounce them properly. (You would love me saying those. My "e"s are so open they seem "a"s.)


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## emma1968

> (You would love me saying those. My "e"s are so open they seem "a"s.)


*Tutte aperte? I can not believe it !
*
m





> a non il mio _pésca. _Sto proprio per andare a fare la spesa. Se dicessi al mio fruttivendolo "mi dà due chili di *pèsche?*" penserebbe che io non stia bene!


*Per me la "pèsca" è il frutto che si mangia, e la "pésca" è..... hai presente quell'attività sportiva che si pratica nei laghi, nei fiumi, in mare?*





> C'è poi un altro discorso da fare. In linguistica si parla di "sistema fonologico": pronuncia dei suoni, ritmo e intonazione fanno parte di questo "sistema". Avendo studiato fonetica, potrei anche eliminare con facilità tutti i suoni che mi identificano come meridionale ma la mia cadenza rimarrebbe meridionale. Mica sono un attore! (e poi il miscuglio di _e,o,s_ toscane e di cadenza meridionale suonerebbe ridicolo!)


*Non vorrei mai che si perdessero tutte le varietà di suoni che caratterizzano  la parlata di ogni  regione ( ma che dico regione) di ogni città  del nostro paese.
Come faremmo a ridere alle battute dei comici napoletani, siciliani, via mettiamoci anche milanesi con origini siciliane?
*


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## moodywop

emma1968 said:
			
		

> *Non vorrei mai che si perdessero tutte le varietà di suoni che caratterizzano la parlata di ogni regione ( ma che dico regione) di ogni città del nostro paese.*
> *Come faremmo a ridere alle battute dei comici napoletani, siciliani, via mettiamoci anche milanesi con origini siciliane?*


 
Ma allora siamo d'accordo!

Quindi se un giorno c'incontreremo e mi sentirai pronunciare _mezzogiorno _con la _g _doppia e la _o _aperta non mi snobberai? 

PS Anche il mio gatto miagola con la cadenza meridionale. E' un vero _catwop _


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## ElaineG

> Far from having a perfect Italian pronunciation, I would like to say, that in writing we need to all stick to a general rule.


 
If a non-native is allowed an opinion, I wholeheartedly agree.  Unless you are trying to recreate spoken language in dialogue, spelling rules should be uniform.  The word "is" (3rd person singular) is spelled è.  Among other things the friendly accent lets the reader know that it's not a question of and.  And I learned here that perché and perchè mean different things, even if in my American mouth, they might well end up sounding exactly the same.

My Italian-American Long Island-raised boyfriend just said to me "Uhlaine, turn awf the computer, we gotta get goin and get the train."  In this region, the final g in "going" and other verbs is never heard from millions of people.  But those millions don't get to spell it differently (except when reporting speech).  Imagine a business letter:  When are you goin to send me dat stuff?  (Well, maybe a business letter from Tony Soprano, but otherwise?)


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## moodywop

ElaineG said:
			
		

> And I learned here that *perché and perchè mean different* *things*, even if in my American mouth, they might well end up sounding exactly the same.


 
 

_Perché _and _perchè _don't mean different things. _Perché _is the correct way to write the word. Some people who pronounce it _perchè_ write _perché, _others _perchè -- _but it's still the same word


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## ElaineG

Ugh.  Someone here explained to me that "perché" is used when it's a because explaining a consequence, and that it's "perchè" when it's why.  I'll have to try to find that explanation; it may have been by PM.


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## moodywop

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Someone here explained to me that "perché" is used when it's a because explaining a consequence, and that it's "perchè" when it's why


 
We want the culprit's name!

PS Did this forer@ use a third pronunciation for "perché" = "affinché"?


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## Paulfromitaly

ElaineG said:
			
		

> If a non-native is allowed an opinion, I wholeheartedly agree.  Unless you are trying to recreate spoken language in dialogue, spelling rules should be uniform.  The word "is" (3rd person singular) is spelled è.  Among other things the friendly accent lets the reader know that it's not a question of and.  And I learned here that perché and perchè mean different things, even if in my American mouth, they might well end up sounding exactly the same.
> 
> My Italian-American Long Island-raised boyfriend just said to me "Uhlaine, turn awf the computer, we gotta get goin and get the train."  In this region, the final g in "going" and other verbs is never heard from millions of people.  But those millions don't get to spell it differently (except when reporting speech).  Imagine a business letter:  When are you goin to send me dat stuff?  (Well, maybe a business letter from Tony Soprano, but otherwise?)



I do agree with you although I have no clue about what "perchè" means..


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## Outsider

It looks like there's only a handfull of words with orthographic "é" in Italian. Are there any words with orthographic "ó"?


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## ElaineG

moodywop said:
			
		

> We want the culprit's name!
> 
> PS Did this forer@ use a third pronunciation for "perché" = "affinché"?


 
I'm trying to search, but the search edoesn't recognize accent marks, so it's difficult.  I need to think of what else was being discussed in the thread.


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## moodywop

Outsider said:
			
		

> Are there any words with orthographic "ó"?


 
I can't think of any. Lepschy states that "stressed final _-o _always represents [phonetic symbol for open _o_] hence it is written with a grave: _ciò, può, portò_"


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## Paulfromitaly

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Ugh.  Someone here explained to me that "perché" is used when it's a because explaining a consequence, and that it's "perchè" when it's why.  I'll have to try to find that explanation; it may have been by PM.



To me, there's only one way to pronounce "perché", but of course it's the intonation changing, depending on whether it's a question or an answer.


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## moodywop

Since we are also discussing Tuscan pronunciation vs the pronunciation of other regions, I think it may not be off topic (and actually interesting) to mention that Mussolini tried to impose Roman pronunciation as standard because he considered it more in character with the "Empire" :

La conquista dell’Etiopia è all’origine anche di un progetto di regolamentazione della pronuncia ufficiale dell’EIAR, l’ente radiofonico dello Stato...l’intenzione era quella di correggere la norma fiorentina, consacrata dalla tradizione, ricorrendo alla pronuncia romana tutte le volte che questa era diversa, soprattutto per l’apertura o chiusura delle vocali _e _e_ o_ toniche. Quindi, ad esempio, a _lèttera_, _maèstro_, doveva preferirsi _léttera_ e_ maéstro_, e così a _Césare _(_s_ sonora) _Cèsare _(_s_ sorda). Così si leggeva nel _Prontuario di pronunzia e di ortografia_ (1939) di Bertoni e Ugolini, due studiosi che si facevano interpreti del pensiero di Mussolini sostenendo che la capitale, divenuta il maggior centro della vita politica e morale d’Italia, doveva essere anche la sede dell’unificazione della lingua e che quindi la pronunzia romana avrebbe portato la questione «sopra il piano dell’Impero».

link


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## Otter

emma1968 said:
			
		

> You're welcome and sweet dreams"
> 
> 
> Edit: I just changed "you are welcome" in "You're welcome" since in the first way it seems odd (as Saoul made me aware)


 
Hi Emma,

I didn't see anything 'odd' in the first way.  The first way was "you are welcome'?  They mean exactly the same thing in English.  

I think Saoul just hadn't had enough coffee .


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## Saoul

I had my regular 10 coffees by now, and I confirm. Read the link I attached for Emma, and you'll find that loads of Native people don't think the same!


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## Moogey

moodywop said:
			
		

> Se dicessi al mio fruttivendolo "mi dà due chili di *pèsche?*" penserebbe che io non stia bene!


* Pè*sche - *pe*nsion
* Pé*sche - *pay

*Giusto?

-M


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## brian

Moogey said:
			
		

> * Pè*sche - *pe*nsion
> * Pé*sche - *pay
> 
> *Giusto?
> 
> -M


Sì, più o meno.  Secondo questo sito, non è giusto esattamente da (_da_ è corretto qui? o altra preposizione? o nessuna preposizione?) dire che _é_ è pronunciato come _-ay_ perché la suona di _-ay_ in inglese si trasforma leggermente (a) quella di _-ee_ alla fine.  È difficile scrivere questo in italiano, così...

Yes, more or less.  According this website, it's not exactly right to say that _é_ is pronounced like -_ay_ because the English -_ay_ sounds changes slightly into an _-ee _sound at the end.

It does make me happy to know that people all over Italy pronounce open and closed vowels differently; it kind of relieves some of the pressure of learning perfect pronunciation. 


Brian


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## ServantOfGod

I am by no means a native of italian, and I do not study Italian.  I just love the italian language.  I have looked up the actual diacritical marks recently, and have found information that may help answer the question.


> Various Wikipedia Articles:
> The grave accent (è) marks the height or openness of the vowels _e_ and _o_ in several Romance languages. In French, Italian and Catalan, it indicates that these vowels are open.
> The grave accent marks the stressed vowel of a word in Italian and Catalan.
> In Italian, it marks final stress, as in _virtù_ ("virtue") or _città_ ("city") or as in _è_ ("it is")
> Source
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> In Italian, the acute accent (_é)_ can be used on _e_ and _o_. However, it is only compulsory on words stressed on their final vowel, and there are no words ending in _ó_. Therefore, only _é_ is used in normal text, typically in words ending in _-ché_, such as _perché_ ("why/because"). It makes an _e_ be pronounced as [e], in a position it would normally be pronounced as [ɛ]; it also marks the stressed vowel (mostly the last one), where the stress would normally be on another syllable (just as in Spanish).
> 
> The rest here.



I hope this information was helpful.

Servus Nostri Domini


Note:  As I am a new member to this forum, I cannot link to the articles I used.  However, if you look up Acute Accent or Grave Accent, it should direct you to their respective articles.


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## Otter

Thank you so much.  This is very helpful, indeed.

Can anyone advise how to place the grave accent over capital E, when the sentence starts with "It is. . . "?

Also, how is 'grave' pronounced in English.  Is the final e sounded, like gra-vay?


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## Moogey

Hi Otter,

Whether you're using the international keyboard or the numlock and keypad, I think the only way to do it is to put caps lock on before typing the key. For me, since I'm using the international keyboard, to type È I have to hit the caps lock, then the accent mark key (below the tilde), and hit E.

Also, see my post about pronunciation above. Although, a native hasn't confermed it yet.

-M


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## brian

Moogey said:
			
		

> Hi Otter,
> 
> Whether you're using the international keyboard or the numlock and keypad, I think the only way to do it is to put caps lock on before typing the key. For me, since I'm using the international keyboard, to type È I have to hit the caps lock, then the accent mark key (below the tilde), and hit E.
> 
> Also, see my post about pronunciation above. Although, a native hasn't confermed it yet.
> 
> -M


Hi Moogey,

Try pressing and releasing the tilde/grave key, making sure that nothing has come up on the screen.  It should just be sitting there as before, but the next button you press, provided it's a letter able to be accented, will have the grave accent.  The only exception is pressing shift...that does nothing.  So you can press & release the tilde/grave, then press & hold the shift key, then type E to produce È!  No caps lock necessary 

If you want to just produce an accent, press & release the accent, then hit the spacebar.


Brian


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## Moogey

brian8733 said:
			
		

> Hi Moogey,
> 
> Try pressing and releasing the tilde/grave key, making sure that nothing has come up on the screen.  It should just be sitting there as before, but the next button you press, provided it's a letter able to be accented, will have the grave accent.  The only exception is pressing shift...that does nothing.  So you can press & release the tilde/grave, then press & hold the shift key, then type E to produce È!  No caps lock necessary
> 
> If you want to just produce an accent, press & release the accent, then hit the spacebar.
> 
> 
> Brian



Aha, that makes things so much easier. Thanks!

-M


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