# aspetti pulsionali



## miri

Hello everybody! 

I have to translate the following title of a thesis: "Aspetti pulsionali  e relazionali del Narcisismo: il pensiero di Freud e Kohut".
The adjective "pulsional" does not seem to exist in English or at least there is no such an entry in the English dictionary.
"Aspetti pulsionali" refer to Freud's thought while "aspetti relazionali" refer to Kohut's thought. 
The translation "Drives and relational aspects of Narcissism: Freud's and Kohut's thought"  is the only one I can think of, but it does not sound right to me.
Has anybody got any suggestions?
Thanks in advance!


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## Paulfromitaly

Prova a spiegare a chi ti vuole aiutare cosa significa pulsionale.


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## Benzene

Ciao miri!

Personalmente elaborerei la frase in questo modo:

"*Aspects of Narcissism correlated to the pulsion and the relation: Freud's and Kohut's thought*".

*Che ne pensi?*

Bye,

Benzene


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## miri

Benzene said:


> Ciao miri!
> 
> Personalmente elaborerei la frase in questo modo:
> 
> "*Aspects of Narcissism correlated to the pulsion and the relation: Freud's and Kohut's thought*".
> 
> *Che ne pensi?*
> 
> Bye,
> 
> Benzene


 
Ciao Benzene!
Grazie mille per il suggerimento! Credo però che sia necessaria una traduzione più fedele all'originale.


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## Paulfromitaly

miri said:


> Ciao Benzene!
> Grazie mille per il suggerimento! Credo però che sia necessaria una traduzione più fedele all'originale.


Se vuoi accuratezza, si accurata tu stessa e spiega cosa vuol dire pulsionale.


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## miri

Paulfromitaly said:


> Se vuoi accuratezza, si accurata tu stessa e spiega cosa vuol dire pulsionale.


 
I understand your point, Paul! But, you know, it is not easy to explain a word which has a whole psychological theory behind!

Anyway it is related to Freud's theory and, to make it simple, it means something like psychological stimula/drives which need to be satisfied in order to reach gratification.


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## minoski

miri said:


> The translation "Drives and relational aspects of Narcissism: Freud's and Kohut's thought" is the only one I can think of, but it does not sound right to me.


 
Su google ci sono un po' di risultati per "drive aspect" in relazione a Freud, quindi forse, ma proprio forse, la tua frase senza il plurale (quindi "drive and relational aspects") potrebbe andare bene.
c.


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## miri

% cristina % said:


> Su google ci sono un po' di risultati per "drive aspect" in relazione a Freud, quindi forse, ma proprio forse, la tua frase senza il plurale (quindi "drive and relational aspects") potrebbe andare bene.
> c.


 

Perfetto %cristina%!!!!

Thanks a bunch!!!!!!!


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## You little ripper!

I would use the expression* pulsional drives.*

pulsional drives

Link


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## rainbowizard

Che ne dici di "Urges and Relational aspects of Narcissism..." non sono affatto sicuro della correttezza di questa frase, tuttavia .


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## minoski

Charles Costante said:


> I would use the expression* pulsional drives.*
> 
> pulsional drives
> 
> Link


 
Well, I guess you have your answer, miri 
c.


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## miri

Charles Costante said:


> I would use the expression* pulsional drives.*
> 
> pulsional drives
> 
> Link


 
Thanks a lot Charles!!
So you mean that the adjective "pulsional" can be used!!!!


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## You little ripper!

miri said:


> Thanks a lot Charles!!
> So you mean that the adjective "pulsional" can be used!!!!


The word *pulsional* is used to distinguish it from other drives or urges.


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## miri

Charles Costante said:


> The word *pulsional* is used to distinguish it from other drives or urges.


 
Great!!!
Thanks a lot!


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## ikester

I'd like to point out that all the results on that Google link are documents translated (mistranslated?) into English from other languages.  The word "pulsional" is not in any of my English language dictionaries.


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## You little ripper!

ikester said:


> I'd like to point out that all the results on that Google link are documents translated (mistranslated?) into English from other languages. The word "pulsional" is not in any of my English language dictionaries.


 
Ikester, this one doesn't appear to be translated. Link


Wikipedia:


*pulsion* _f._ (_plural_ *pulsions*)
(psychology) drive, urge


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## miri

Charles, %cristina%, Rainbowizard, Ike and all the other forum friends: sorry to bother you again, but now I am really confused!  

Charles's last quote from Wikipedia refers to a French dictionary, if I am not wrong and the other link is only *one *instance of the occurence of the word "pulsional" in original English psychological literature.
Rainbowizard, thank you very much, but don't you think that "urges" is less specific than "drives" in psychology?

I really do not know what to do 

Shall I try again in the Only English section to check if %cristina%'s suggestion sounds good to a native as it does to me?
I would really appreciate your help!


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## You little ripper!

> Charles's last quote from Wikipedia refers to a French dictionary


Sorry miri, I didn't notice that it was the Wikipedia French dictionary. 





> if I am not wrong and the other link is only *one *instance of the occurence of the word "pulsional" in original English psychological literature.


 
That just of the expression "pulsional drives". Here are a few more examples of the word by itself.

_What Freud missed was not seeing the curvature of life in death, he missed its vertigo and its excess, its reversal of the entire economy of life, making it, in the form of a final *pulsion,* into a belated equation of life._
Link

_Fundamental and elementary *pulsions* according to *Freud* and psychoanalysis._ 
Link

*Specifically, in the first paper I will comment on Perelberg's notion of core phantasy and in the second paper will take up the questions of representation, pulsion and femininity.*
Link

None of the above are translations.

The word has an obvious French origin, but like many French words has been introduced into the English language. You could always put it into inverted commas ("pulsions"), or if you don't feel at all comfortable with it, use *drive*.


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## fragasp

Hi, I confirm (through google-book) the existence of expression "pulsional drives":
http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&safe=off&q="pulsional drives"&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wp


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## miri

Thank you fragasp! And Charles, I thank you so much for all your time!!! You have been so kind! 
Could you please just tell me which of the three alternatives sounds "more English" to a native speaker?

"Pulsional drives and relational aspects of Narcissism"
"Drives and relational aspects of Narcissism"
"Drive and relational aspects of Narcissism"


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## You little ripper!

It depends on what you mean by "more English" miri. The first one would be understood by the lay person and the second by a professional.

*Drive and relational aspects of narcissism* or
*"Pulsional" (drive) and relational aspects of narcissism* (if you feel comfortable using that word) (there is actually no need to put *drive* in that sentence because that is what *pulsional* means; it is added purely for clarification)


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## fragasp

miri said:


> Thank you fragasp! And Charles, I thank you so much for all your time!!! You have been so kind!
> Could you please just tell me which of the three alternatives sounds "more English" to a native speaker?
> 
> "Pulsional drives and relational aspects of Narcissism"
> "Drives and relational aspects of Narcissism"
> "Drive and relational aspects of Narcissism"



Hi Miri, I'm sorry but I can't reply to your question.


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## rainbowizard

Hi miri,
In my opinion you should follow the kind suggestion of Charles



Charles Costante said:


> It depends on what you mean by "more English" miri. The first one would be understood by the lay person and the second by a professional.
> 
> *Drive and relational aspects of narcissism* or
> *"Pulsional" (drive) and relational aspects of narcissism* (if you feel comfortable using that word) (there is actually no need to put *drive* in that sentence because that is what *pulsional* means; it is added purely for clarification)


 
Even because he's the only native speaking here 
Anyway you could try to post a request in the English-only section too, I think.


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## wonderment

Hi, miri: my two cents...


miri said:


> Could you please just tell me which of the three alternatives sounds "more English" to a native speaker?
> 
> "Pulsional drives and relational aspects of Narcissism"
> This seems best to me because academics familiar with the language of psychoanalytic theory will understand it, and it sounds professional. (Dissertations are not really written for lay people.) I wouldn't leave out "drives" because it's a term that's more readily recognizable than "pulsional aspects" (=drives) as a Freudian concept.
> 
> "Drives and relational aspects of Narcissism"
> This could work, but I can't help but feel something is missing in front of "drives". The phrase makes perfect sense; it's just a matter of personal preference.
> 
> "Drive and relational aspects of Narcissism"
> This sounds a bit awkward  because "drive" does not work well as an adjective here. And if you intend it as a noun, you'd want the plural.


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## miri

Hi wonderment! Two cents? A million dollars!!!! 

Hoping not to be too troublesome , I have two questions:

1) I like the first one too,  but doesn't "pulsional drives" sound redundant as the two words have the same meaning?

3) Yes, it is not an adjective, but couldn't "drive" associated with "aspects" be understood as a sort of compound noun? I am not sure if it is clear what I mean ...

Thank you in advance!


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## You little ripper!

> Pulsional drives and relational aspects of Narcissism"
> This seems best to me because academics familiar with the language of psychoanalytic theory will understand it, and it sounds professional. (Dissertations are not really written for lay people.) I wouldn't leave out "drives" because it's a term that's more readily recognizable than "pulsional aspects" (=drives) as a Freudian concept.


The reason the word *pulsional* is used in the expression *pulsional drives* is to distinguish the urges of sex, eating and drinking etc from other urges, but I don't think it's necessary to add the word *drives*. Not counting the translations, there are more Google listings for *pulsional *than there are for *pulsional drives*. I'm pretty sure academics would understand *pulsional aspects* without it. 



> "Drives and relational aspects of Narcissism"
> This could work, but I can't help but feel something is missing in front of "drives". The phrase makes perfect sense; it's just a matter of personal preference.
> "Drive and relational aspects of Narcissism"
> This sounds a bit awkward because "drive" does not work well as an adjective here. And if you intend it as a noun, you'd want the plural.


Wonderment, if you extend that sentence it says "*Drive/s aspects *and* relational aspects* of narcissism". *Drive aspects* sound so much better to me than *drives aspects* and gives the plural meaning just as much, but that's a personal choice; you can use either. (There are 5,500 Google listings for *drive aspects* and 233 for *drives aspects*)

My much more than two cents worth.....(but then I've always been a big spender!) 

P.S. I've just realized that that Wikipedia dictionay definition for *pulsion *is from the English dictionay as I originally thought; it's not the French one. It just shows the French derivation.


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## wonderment

Hi again, miri! 



miri said:


> 3) Yes, it is not an adjective, but couldn't "drive" associated with "aspects" be understood as a sort of compound noun? I am not sure if it is clear what I mean ...


 
Yes, “drive aspects” is a noun-noun compound noun (like “beach front” or “garden table”), and as such should stay together as a unit. But “drive aspects” and “relational aspects” (an adjective-noun pair, _not_ a compound noun) seem mismatched when you conjoin them as “drive and relational aspects”. It would be preferable to write “pulsional and relational aspects” because “pulsional” and “relational” are both adjectives modifying the noun “aspects”. I just prefer symmetry as a matter of style. Also, doesn’t “the garden and beautiful tables” sound odd to you, even though what you intend is “the garden tables” and “the beautiful tables”? And no matter your intent, a reader could still take the phrase to mean “the garden” and “the beautiful tables”. 

2) As for “drives and relational aspects of narcissism”, I understand this to mean: “drives” (i.e. pulsional aspects) and “relational aspects” of Narcissism. As I’ve noted above, this formulation makes good sense; there’s nothing really wrong with it. Anyway, “drives aspects” is awkward. That’s why I didn’t even think to read the phrase as: “drives aspects” and “relational aspects” of narcissism. Singular: drive aspect. Plural: drive aspects. 



> 1) I like the first one too, but doesn't "pulsional drives" sound redundant as the two words have the same meaning?



Yes, it’s redundant, but I’m reluctant to toss out “drives” because it has greater currency than “pulsional aspects” as an English term in Freudian psychoanalytic theory. That said, I think “pulsional and relational aspects of narcissism” could be okay, and only because the name of Freud in the second part of the your thesis title may help specify what is meant by “pulsional aspects”; what else could “pulsional aspects” mean in connection with Freud if not "libidinal drives"?


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## miri

Hello!
The title was to be handed in this morning so I had to make up my mind, at last! 
Since the use of the word "pulsional" seems somehow controversial and besides I needed to stick to the content of the thesis as much as possible, I thought that the option which best met these requirements was "Drive and relational aspects of narcissism" (even if I am still racking my brain on "garden and beautiful tables", wonderment!!! )
Thanks again to all of you for your invaluable help, dear friends!
Special thanks to Charles  and Wonderment !


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## minoski

It's nice sometimes to have news of what happened with the suggestions of the threads that have been opened!
Bye miri!
c.


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## miri

Grazie di cuore, %cristina% per la tua prontissima intuizione.
Grande cri !


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