# NORWEGIAN: kunne sendt vs kunne sende



## Kiedis

Hello.

Suppose you have received an email from a person but he forgot to attach a certain document. Which sentence is better to remind him to send in the document:

_Det hadde vært greit hvis du *kunne sendt* et dokument_

OR

_Det hadde vært greit hvis du *kunne sende* et dokument_


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## raumar

Both "kunne sende" and kunne sendt" works fine, and I don't really see any difference between them. 

You are maybe more interested in the grammar than the specific example, but I think this question works better for a first request than for a reminder. If the other person clearly knows that you need the document, and just has forgotten to attach it, this response may seem a bit sarcastic. In this situation, I usually write "Det ser ut til at vedlegget mangler", or something like that.


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## Kiedis

i often see "kunne sende" and "kunne sendt" used interchangeably thus i wondered if there is some difference between them. yes, I learned just recently that such phrases like "det hadde vært greit", "fint om du kan.." may sound a bit sarcastic and it is better to avoid such phrases in formal written communication.

a somewhat related question - is it true that the second phrase is more polite than the first (both in written and spoken communication)?:

*Kan *_du vise meg hvordan det skal gjøres?_

OR

_*Kunne*_ _du vise meg hvordan det skal gjøres?_

I'm not sure if I can apply English language rules where _could you_ is more polite than _can you_.


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## sdr083

Yes, the second one is more polite. As a general rule, the more indirect, the more polite.

I've joked about this with foreigners (often foreign linguists ...) sometimes, illustrating with a range from "Pass the salt!" to "Do you think that perhaps you could have considered the possibility of passing me the salt?" 

Jokes aside though, Norwegian doesn't really have a proper equivalent to English "please", so politeness is very much in the phrasing ...


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## Dan2

Kiedis said:


> Which sentence is better to remind him to send in *the document*:
> _Det hadde vært greit hvis du kunne sendt *et dokument*_


I agree with your use of "*the *document" in English in this context and I wonder why one would not say "dokumentet" in Norwegian.


Kiedis said:


> Det hadde vært greit


"grei" is usually said to mean "clear", "straightforward", "easy" and the like.  Does "greit" (the neuter form) take on an additional meaning?  In general or just in this context of "Det hadde vært greit"?


raumar said:


> Both "kunne sende" and kunne sendt" works fine, and I don't really see any difference between them.


In terms of the grammar of other European languages, "kunne sende" makes sense as a modal verb + infinitive, while "kunne sendt" (modal + past participle) is surprising.  I'm aware of this construction, but I'd just like to ask whether native speakers perceive it as a contracted form of "kunne ha sendt".


sdr083 said:


> Norwegian doesn't really have a proper equivalent to English "please"


The equivalent is often said to be "takk" at the end of the sentence.  ("Can I please have ..." / "Kan jeg få ... takk")  Do you perceive these as being significantly different in meaning?

Thanks!


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## sdr083

Dan2 said:


> The equivalent is often said to be "takk" at the end of the sentence.  ("Can I please have ..." / "Kan jeg få ... takk")  Do you perceive these as being significantly different in meaning?




I would never use "takk" like this, at the end of a request, unless I was joking. I'm not saying it isn't correct Norwegian _in theory_, but in practice this makes the request sound like an order. I'd perceive it as rude, and would personally only use it jokingly, to people I know well, in a pretend-angry way.



Dan2 said:


> I'd just like to ask whether native speakers perceive it as a contracted form of "kunne ha sendt".



I can't speak for all Norwegians, but I do perceive it this way.
I was once asked about the difference between "hadde vært fint", "ville være fint", "ville vært fint" and "ville ha vært fint" in a sentence equivalent to this one, and I couldn't give a good answer. Still can't. There are perhaps subtle differences in how they could be used and would be perceived, but nothing I could explain as a general rule. There is, however, a difference in how likely I'd be to use them, but there are very probably both personal and dialectal differences in this regard. I'd favour "hadde vært fint" inthe last example, as the use of "vil" for future is literary to me. In speech, to me, "vil" always means "want to". In your sentence I'd go with "kunne sendt". This is just gut feeling, but thinking about it, it may be because "hadde vært greit" is past tense (though used as a hypothetical), and so past participle feels more natural. But both sound fine to me.
And I'm sure there someone out there who disagrees with me ...


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## raumar

Dan2 said:


> I agree with your use of "*the *document" in English in this context and I wonder why one would not say "dokumentet" in Norwegian.



You are right - I missed that. It should be "dokumentet" when he asks for a specific document. 


Dan2 said:


> "grei" is usually said to mean "clear", "straightforward", "easy" and the like.  Does "greit" (the neuter form) take on an additional meaning?  In general or just in this context of "Det hadde vært greit"?



"Greit" can be used in a lot of contexts. Very often it means "OK". For example, "Det er greit" (That's OK") [and you'll sometimes see "Den er grei" instead], or "Det er greit for meg" (That is fine by me). In Kiedis' sentence, "greit" has a slightly different meaning - closer to "good" or maybe "practical". Here, "Det hadde vært greit" is a very informal version of "I would appreciate it if ..."



Dan2 said:


> In terms of the grammar of other European languages, "kunne sende" makes sense as a modal verb + infinitive, while "kunne sendt" (modal + past participle) is surprising.  I'm aware of this construction, but I'd just like to ask whether native speakers perceive it as a contracted form of "kunne ha sendt".



I agree with sdr083. "Ha" is sometimes dropped in Norwegian, but more often in Swedish. This seems to have been discussed before - see this thread (I agree with Magb in #11): 
Swedish/Norwegian: present perfect (auxiliary verb)



Dan2 said:


> The equivalent is often said to be "takk" at the end of the sentence.  ("Can I please have ..." / "Kan jeg få ... takk")  Do you perceive these as being significantly different in meaning?



I partly agree with sdr083, but I don't necessarily perceive it as rude. That depends on the intonation, and it is possible to say "takk" at the end of the sentence in a nice way. However, I agree that "takk" at the end of the sentence is much less used than "please" in English.


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## Dan2

Thanks very much, raumar and sdr083.

With respect to sentence-final "takk" for "please": it's commonly found in phrasebooks in both Norwegian and Swedish ("tack").  Perhaps it's more natural in Swedish; I don't know.  In any case it's good to have your perceptions of it.

But even if you perceive ending a sentence with "takk" as somewhat rude, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a poor equivalent for "please", because sentences with "please" can also be rude.  If I walk up to a store cashier with a ten-dollar bill...
1. "Please give me too fives." - Somewhat rude, sounds like an order.
2. "Give me two fives?" - Definitely better, even though no "please" is present
3. "Could you give me two fives?" - Fine.
4. "Could you please give me two fives?" or "Could you give me two fives please?" - "Officially" ("in theory", as sdr said) this is more polite, but I'm not sure it really is.  Including the word "please" makes it sound like you _assume _your request will be granted.  Without "please" it's more of a true question, which is more respectful to the person you're addressing.  I personally would say 3 (with a smile).


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## raumar

I have tried to think this through, and I think we must distinguish between two different situations.

It is perfectly normal and polite to reply, for example, "_En kopp kaffe, takk_", if a waiter asks what you would like to drink. In this case, the only alternative would be just "_En kopp kaffe_". That is less polite.

I think it is the combination of "_Kan jeg få..._" and "_takk_" at the end that is problematic, and can be perceived as rude. "_Kan jeg få en kopp kaffe, takk_" may sound like a command. "_Kunne jeg få en kopp kaffe?" _is better.


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## DerFrosch

Dan2 said:


> Perhaps it's more natural in Swedish; I don't know.


Not really; raumar's comments in #9 are without reservations true for Swedish as well.


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