# Urdu, Hindi: You might know, or you might not know



## Stranger_

1) How can one say the following in Urdu/Hindi?

[ you might know, or you might not know ]
In Persian: [ shaayad bidaaniid va shaayad (ham) nadaaniid* ~ شاید بدانید و شاید (هم) ندانید ]

I have noticed that you use "*ki*" to express this probability, but this usage of "*ki*" looks a bit strange to me because it does not occur in Persian - the language from which it has been borrowed. 

So, I want you to please give me a couple of examples.

I would have expected something along the lines of: "_aap shaayad jaaneN, aur shaayad na jaaneN_" but this doesn't seem to be correct and make any sense, does it?

..

2) Could you also translate this sentence for me?

[ you either know, or you don't ]
In Persian: [ yaa miidaaniid va yaa (ham) nemiidaaniid* ~ یا می‌دانید و یا (هم) نمی‌دانید ]

-------------------------------

* Just for the sake of easiness, I have transliterated Persian using the same method used for Urdu/Hindi in this forum.


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## littlepond

Hindi:
1) aap shaayad jaante haiN, yaa nahiN jaante haiN
2) yaa to aap jaante haiN, yaa nahiN

Also, not appreciated by some though: aap shaayad jaante ho(N), yaa na jaante ho(N).


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## Stranger_

Many thanks for the prompt reply. Is it also possible to translate it using "ki" in the sentence?


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## littlepond

Stranger jii, anything can be phrased in this world using any word, if one has made up his or her mind to do that: so why make an exception of "ki". However, a sentence like this would normally be not used with any "ki" in it. So let me try my hand phrasing this with a "ki":

"ki aap jaante hain, ki aap nahiN jaante" (maybe you know, maybe you don't know)


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## Stranger_

Thanks again.

I see that you have used "ki" twice in your sentence.

Here is an example from QP Jii where he uses it only once: "تمھیں یاد ہو کھ نھ یاد ہو tumheN yaad ho ki na yaad ho".

This is getting a bit confusing now!!

Are all of them correct? If yes, then which one would more likely be used in spoken language?

..

What about the example I gave "_aap shaayad jaaneN, aur shaayad na jaaneN"_? 

Would you consider it to be correct Hindi?


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## littlepond

QP jii's sentence is also correct, Stranger jii, but I would use it only in a conditional clause: for example, "tumheN yaad ho ki na yaad ho, par maine yeh kahaa thaa" (whether you remember or not, but I did say it).

Normally, I would rather not use "ki" at all in the sentences you are asking about. Of course, one _can_ use it.

No, "_aap shaayad jaaneN, aur shaayad na jaaneN"_ is not a correct sentence.


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## tonyspeed

Stranger_ said:


> ..
> 
> What about the example I gave "_aap shaayad jaaneN, aur shaayad na jaaneN"_?
> 
> Would you consider it to be correct Hindi?



aur means and.

_aap shaayad jaaneN *yaa* naa jaaneN_ would be more correct. Let's see if anyone has a problem with that sentence.


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## Stranger_

Ok, great.

Just one more favor guys.

Please translate this sentence into Hindi/Urdu *with and without* using "ki".

"you might like it or not, but it is true"


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## littlepond

tonyspeed said:


> aur means and.
> 
> _aap shaayad jaaneN *yaa* naa jaaneN_ would be more correct. Let's see if anyone has a problem with that sentence.



I do have (I don't see the need of a subjunctive). Btw, the thread now reminds me of the film title "Jaane tu ya jaane na".


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## Chhaatr

Stranger_ said:


> Ok, great.
> 
> Just one more favor guys.
> 
> Please translate this sentence into Hindi/Urdu *with and without* using "ki".
> 
> "you might like it or not, but it is true"



_aap shaayad chaaheN ya na chaaheN par yeh sach hai
aapko achchhaa lage ya na/nahiiN par yeh sach hai_


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## Chhaatr

Stranger_ said:


> 1) How can one say the following in Urdu/Hindi?
> 
> [ you might know, or you might not know ]
> In Persian: [ shaayad bidaaniid va shaayad (ham) nadaaniid* ~ شاید بدانید و شاید (هم) ندانید ]
> 
> I have noticed that you use "*ki*" to express this probability, but this usage of "*ki*" looks a bit strange to me because it does not occur in Persian - the language from which it has been borrowed.
> 
> So, I want you to please give me a couple of examples.
> 
> I would have expected something along the lines of: "_aap shaayad jaaneN, aur shaayad na jaaneN_" but this doesn't seem to be correct and make any sense, does it?
> 
> ..
> 
> 2) Could you also translate this sentence for me?
> 
> [ you either know, or you don't ]
> In Persian: [ yaa miidaaniid va yaa (ham) nemiidaaniid* ~ یا می‌دانید و یا (هم) نمی‌دانید ]
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> * Just for the sake of easiness, I have transliterated Persian using the same method used for Urdu/Hindi in this forum.



1. _shaayad aap ko patah/mu3aluum ho yah nah/nahiiN_


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## Alfaaz

Stranger_ said:
			
		

> Please translate this sentence into Hindi/Urdu *with and without* using "ki".
> 
> "you might like it or not, but it is true"


آپ کو پسند آئے کہ نہ آئے، مگر یہ سچ/حقیقت ہے - _aap ko pasand aa'e keh nah aa'e, magar yeh sach/Haqeeqat hai
_آپ کو پسند آئے یا نہ آئے، مگر یہ سچ/حقیقت ہے - _aap ko pasand aa'e yaa nah aa'e, magar yeh sach/Haqeeqat hai
_آپ پسند کریں کہ نہ کریں، لیکن یہی سچ حقیقت ہے - _aap pasand kareN keh nah kareN, lekin yehii sach/Haqeeqat hai_

The meaning of کہ - _keh_ you are inquiring about in the opening post seems to be the following listed in Urdu Lughat: 


> 4. یا" کی جگہ۔
> ؎ کوئی دیوا جلا کہ آئی صبح
> کوئی غنچہ کھلا کہ شام ہوئی


_"yaa" kii jagah
ko'ii deevaa jalaa keh aa'ii subH
ko'ii ghunchah khilaa keh shaam hu'ii

_(_deevaa - _چراغ_ - charaagh_)

You can see the various Urdu usages of _keh_ in the dictionary entry. Also, there were probably a few threads where forum members compared the usages in Urdu and Persian. Another example: 




_ko'ii saath de keh nah saath de
yeh safar akele hii kaaT le
keh hum bhi musaafir tum bhii musaafir
kaun kisii kaa hove
kaahe chup chup rove
Film: Badnaam (1966)_
کوئی ساتھ دے کہ نہ ساتھ دے
یہ سفر اکیے ہی کاٹ لے
کہ ہم بھی مسافر تم بھی مسافر
کون کسی کا ہو وے
کاہے چپ چپ رو وے
فلم: بدنام 1966


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## marrish

Alfaaz jii, yes I can remember some threads about kih for yaa where I participated. Strangely enough (no pun) I interpret the diiwaa verse differently than U. encyclopaedia lughat.


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## Alfaaz

What is your interpretation marrish SaaHib?


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## marrish

Alfaaz said:


> What is your interpretation marrish SaaHib?


 It is a bit troublesome to say it in English for me because I don't use English outside of this forum. ko'ii diiwaa jalaa kih hu'ii SubH. Now that a lamp lit that dawn has set. Not that if...if. diyaa jalaa kih jaise SubH hu'ii.... and so on


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## Wolverine9

Stranger_ said:


> 1) How can one say the following in Urdu/Hindi?
> 
> [ you might know, or you might not know ]
> In Persian: [ shaayad bidaaniid va shaayad (ham) nadaaniid* ~ شاید بدانید و شاید (هم) ندانید ]
> 
> I have noticed that you use "*ki*" to express this probability, but this usage of "*ki*" looks a bit strange to me because it does not occur in Persian - the language from which it has been borrowed.
> 
> So, I want you to please give me a couple of examples.
> 
> I would have expected something along the lines of: "_aap shaayad jaaneN, aur shaayad na jaaneN_" but this doesn't seem to be correct and make any sense, does it?
> 
> ..
> 
> 2) Could you also translate this sentence for me?
> 
> [ you either know, or you don't ]
> In Persian: [ yaa miidaaniid va yaa (ham) nemiidaaniid* ~ یا می‌دانید و یا (هم) نمی‌دانید ]
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> * Just for the sake of easiness, I have transliterated Persian using the same method used for Urdu/Hindi in this forum.



Your source of confusion is that _ki _has two distinct etymologies.  The meaning of "that", which you well familiar with, is of Persian origin.  However, the meaning of "or" is of Indic origin and is sometimes used instead of _yaa_.   The different uses of _ki _have been discussed in some detail in the past.


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## Qureshpor

I'd like to know more about the Indic "کہ" that means "or".

Here is an example from Persian..

*ای خدا حرفهام رو گوش میدی که نه. میدونم گوش میدی

*http://wwwali2it.blogfa.com/8706.aspx


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## Stranger_

I have not ever heard "که نه" but I do have heard: "یا که نه"

Perhaps in Urdu-Hindi, the "یا" part has been dropped.


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## Wolverine9

From Turner, which shows the Indic origin of the "or" meaning.

3164 *kím* n.sg. ʻ what? why? ʼ, interrogative particle RV., _kiṁ vā_ ʻ or whether ʼ Mn. [ká -- 2]
Pa. _kiṁ_ ʻ what? ʼ, _kiṁ_ . . . _udāhō_ ʻ whether . . . or ʼ, Aś. jau. _kiṁ_, gir. _ki_, kb. _kiṁmaṁ_ ʻ why so? ʼ < _kim ēvam_, NiDoc. _ki_, Pk. _kiṁ_, _ki_ pron. and interr. particle, Dm. _kya_, Tir. _ki_, Gaw. _kī_, Kal. _kīa_, Kho. _ki_ ʻ which? (of animals and things) ʼ, Mai. _gī_, Phal. _ga_, K. _kyā_, rām. ḍoḍ. _kī_ ʻ why? ʼ, S. _ki_ interr. particle; P. _kī_ interj. ʻ what! ʼ, _kī_ . . . _kī_ ʻ whether . . . or ʼ; WPah. bhal. paṅ. khaś. _kī_, Ku. _kyā_, N. _ki_ ʻ interr. particle, or ʼ, _kina_ ʻ why? ʼ, _kyā_, ʻ what? ʼ; A. B. Or. Mth. OAw. _ki_ ʻ what?, or ʼ; *H. ki . . . ki ʻ whether . . . or ʼ*, _kyā_ ʻ what? ʼ; OMarw. _kyaü_, _kyu_, G. _kiyũ_; *M. kī˜ ʻ or ʼ (separate from kī˜ conj. ʻ that ʼ ← H. ki ← Pers. LM 209)*; Si. _ki_ --  in cmpds. such as _kikala_ ʻ what time? ʼ, _kikaruṇa_ ʻ why? ʼ.

Some other thread where this topic was discussed: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2581174 and http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2761952


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## andrespefia3

These can be in Hindi as follows
1) तुम जानते हो सकता है, या तुम जानते नहीं हो|
2) तुम्हें पता है, या तो या नहीं|


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## Qureshpor

Unfortunately, Turner's description does n't mean much to me. I would like to see the use of کہ to mean "or" in Indic languages other than those influenced by Urdu.


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## Stranger_

andrespefia3 said:


> These can be in Hindi as follows
> 1) तुम जानते हो सकता है, या तुम जानते नहीं हो|
> 2) तुम्हें पता है, या तो या नहीं|



Thank you but could you, or anybody else, write it in Latin letters?


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## Chhaatr

Stranger_ said:


> Thank you but could you, or anybody else, write it in Latin letters?



1. tum jaante ho saktaa hai, yaa tum jaante nahiiN ho.
2. tumheN pataa hai, yaa to yaa nahiiN


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## Qureshpor

"tum jaante ho saktaa hai" does n't seem right to me. May be I am missing something.


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## littlepond

^ I don't think anyone is suggesting both the sentences to be correct.


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## Wolverine9

Besides the meaning of "or" present in languages that have been strongly influenced by Urdu, such as Hindi and Punjabi, Turner also lists the meaning of "or" for languages such as Assamese, Bengali, Oriya, Maithili, Old Awadhi, and Marathi.  There is also the Sanskrit etymon _kiṁ vā_ ʻ or whether ʼ.


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## mundiya

Qureshpor said:


> Here is an example from Persian..
> 
> *ای خدا حرفهام رو گوش میدی که نه. میدونم گوش میدی
> 
> *http://wwwali2it.blogfa.com/8706.aspx



Quresh jii, is this Indo-Persian?


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## Qureshpor

mundiya said:


> Quresh jii, is this Indo-Persian?


No, beause Indo-Persian speakers/writers don't speak/write in the Tehrani fashion.


Stranger_ SaaHib, your original query could be expressed in these words too. The thought has occurred to me after thinking about a shi3r from one of the top most Urdu poets, who has been given the title خدائے سخن

تو جانے نہ جانے

تم جانو نہ جانو

آپ جانیں نہ جانیں

پتا پتا بوٹا بوٹا حال ہمارا جانے ہے۔
جانے نہ جانے گل ہی نہ جانے باغ تو سارا جانے ہے۔

میر تقی میر


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## Stranger_

It is both surprising and interesting to see that Allama Iqbal has used this "ki که" alone in one of his Persian poems.

سینا است *که *فاران است یا رب چه مقام است این
هر ذره خاک من چشمی است تماشا مست


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## Dib

littlepond said:


> tonyspeed said:
> 
> 
> 
> aur means and.
> 
> _aap shaayad jaaneN *yaa* naa jaaneN_ would be more correct. Let's see if anyone has a problem with that sentence.
> 
> 
> 
> I do have (I don't see the need of a subjunctive) ...
Click to expand...


This is slightly surprising to me. While I am not suggesting that  the subjunctive is absolutely necessary here, I think it is common enough  after shaayad. Isn't it? In fact, isn't "shaayad aap jaante hoN" universally accepted as good Hindi/Urdu? The following  comment of yours confuses me a bit:



littlepond said:


> Hindi:
> ...
> Also, not appreciated by some though: aap shaayad jaante ho(N), yaa na jaante ho(N).



I understand, some people may not like the "ho" form here. But is there really anyone who would object to the "hoN"?

---------



Stranger_ said:


> Here is an example from QP Jii where he uses it only once: "تمھیں یاد ہو کھ نھ یاد ہو tumheN yaad ho ki na yaad ho".



I'd suggest, you interpret it as "(notwithstanding) whether you  remember or not, ..." just like littlepond-jii suggested but in  different words. The structure seems to be "verb-A-subjunctive, ki naa  verb-A-subjunctive..." to mean "nothwithstanding whether verb-A or not". But I think, ki  can be used more widely to mean "(whether) ... or ..." like in Alfaaz saahib's beautiful  couplet. The defining factor, if I have to hazard a guess, is that the  context is a direct/implied question. By "implied question", I mean  contexts where English would use "whether ... or ...". The simplest  examples are probably in direct questions:
"tum jaaoge ki/yaa nahiiN?" - Will you go, or not?
"tum jaaoge ki/yaa aaoge?" - Will you go, or come?

This  leads to its usage in indirect questions, e.g. "mujhe nahiiN pataa, tum  jaaoge ki/yaa nahiiN, lekin maiN to jaauNgaa." And from this, the usage  seems to have been extended to many other contexts where English would  use "whether...or..." But note, all these cases have ki/yaa both as valid options.



Qureshpor said:


> Unfortunately, Turner's description does n't mean much to me. I would like to see the use of کہ to mean "or" in Indic languages other than those influenced by Urdu.



That would be a rather tall order to find, I suppose. Maybe Romani, Sinhala, Divehi, etc. would fit the bill. On the other hand, languages like Bengali or Marathi, for example, though they do not have much superstrate influence from Urdu/Hindi like Punjabi, Kashmiri or Bhojpuri might have, still have enough adstrate influences because of their neighboring existence. Moreover, they - at least Bengali - has a strong Persian superstrate as well. The kind of everyday structures, we are discussing here, can leap over to other languages through any kind of contact, whether ad-, super- or sub-strate. With this disclaimer in place, I'd like to inform that this ki for "(whether) ... or ..." also exists in Bengali. Though Bengali has another option here - accented "na" (while the negative particle is normally an unaccented "na"), or even both of them together - "naki" (normally accented and at the beginning of the second clause, it has a different function when unaccented and inside a clause). The combination "kina" is also available, and it behaves like the "whether" of indirect (i.e. reported) yes/no-questions (without an explicit or-clause). So,
 Will you go, or not? (tum jaaoge ki nahiiN?) => tumi jabe, na/ki/naki jabe na?
I don't know whether you will go or not => tumi jabe, na/ki/naki jabe na, (ta) ami jani na.
I don't know whether you will go => tumi jabe kina, (ta) ami jani na. [Here "ki-na" obviously started off as "or not" (H/U "ki nahiiN"); but as a native speaker, I don't have that analysis on top of my mind, unless I actively think about it.]

Among na/ki/naki, I personally prefer the na-version in Standard Bengali in normal situations, and the naki-version in emphasis, and the ki-version in my paternal dialect (I never realized this preference before now!), in which I'd normally say: tumi jabɔ, ki jabɔ ni?

I have a feeling that this "ki" probably has the same etymology as the yes/no-question marker "ki" of Bengali or Punjabi, and thus probably from Sanskrit "kim" in the same sense. The exact path of development is not clear to me, but its close association with questions is hardly to be doubted (just like English whether - cognate to Sanskrit katara-).


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## desi4life

Your analysis is very good, perceptive, and comprehensive, Dib.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> Stranger_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an example from QP Jii where he uses it only once: "تمھیں یاد ہو کھ نھ یاد ہو tumheN yaad ho ki na yaad ho".
> 
> 
> 
> I'd suggest, you interpret it as "(notwithstanding) whether you  remember or not, ..." just like littlepond-jii suggested but in  different words. The structure seems to be "verb-A-subjunctive, ki naa  verb-A-subjunctive..." to mean "nothwithstanding whether verb-A or not". But I think, ki  can be used more widely to mean "(whether) ... or ..." like in Alfaaz saahib's beautiful  couplet. The defining factor, if I have to hazard a guess, is that the  context is a direct/implied question. By "implied question", I mean  contexts where English would use "whether ... or ...". The simplest  examples are probably in direct questions:
> "tum jaaoge ki/yaa nahiiN?" - Will you go, or not?
> "tum jaaoge ki/yaa aaoge?" - Will you go, or come?
> 
> This  leads to its usage in indirect questions, e.g. "mujhe nahiiN pataa, tum  jaaoge ki/yaa nahiiN, lekin maiN to jaauNgaa." And from this, the usage  seems to have been extended to many other contexts where English would  use "whether...or..." But note, all these cases have ki/yaa both as valid options.
Click to expand...

ڈِب جی، یہ اقتباس مومن خان مومن کی مشہورِزمانہ غزل کے مطلع سے لیا گیا ہے۔۔۔

وہ جو ہم میں تم میں قرار تھا تمھیں یاد ہو کہ نہ یاد ہو
وہی وعدہ یعنی نباہ کا تمھیں یاد ہو کہ نہ یاد ہو

وہ جو لطف مجھ پہ تھے پیشتر وہ کرم کہ تھا مرے حال پر
مجھے سب ہے یاد ذرا ذرا تمھیں یاد ہو کہ نہ یاد ہو

وہ نئے گلے وہ شکایتیں وہ مزے مزے کی حکایتیں
وہ ہر ایک بات پہ روٹھنا تمھیں یاد پو کہ نہ یاد ہو

مزید سیاق و سباق کو مدّ نظر رکھتے ہوئے کیا اِس جملے کے، یعنی۔۔۔ تمھیں یاد ہو کہ نہ یاد ہو۔۔۔۔ وہی معنے ہیں جو آپ نے بتائے ہیں؟


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> مزید سیاق و سباق کو مدّ نظر رکھتے ہوئے کیا اِس جملے کے، یعنی۔۔۔ تمھیں  یاد ہو کہ نہ یاد ہو۔۔۔۔ وہی معنے ہیں جو آپ نے بتائے ہیں؟



یہ بات تو جناب مجھ سے کہیں بہتر خود آپ ہی بتا پائیں گے!


But  given that we have the larger context now, I guess a "(I don't know)  maybe you remember, or maybe you don't" is a better interpretation,  though I believe it still falls within my suggestion of "whether ... or  ..." structure, e.g. "(I don't know) whether you may remember or you may  not". The English is quite unidiomatic, but the flow of logic should be  clear, I guess. In any case, all these attempts at fitting a  grammatical model to a very idiomatic usage are probably not all that  useful for a beginning or intermediate learner. In order to introduce a  learner to the sense "or" of "ki", I'd indeed prefer to start with the  more straightforward examples of (direct and implied) questions, while  making them aware that it has many other idiomatic extensions, which  they should watch out for and learn as they encounter them.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> یہ بات تو جناب مجھ سے کہیں بہتر خود آپ ہی بتا پائیں گے!
> 
> 
> But  given that we have the larger context now, I guess a "(I don't know)  maybe you remember, or maybe you don't" is a better interpretation,  though I believe it still falls within my suggestion of "whether ... or  ..." structure, e.g. "(I don't know) whether you may remember or you may  not". The English is quite unidiomatic, but the flow of logic should be  clear, I guess. In any case, all these attempts at fitting a  grammatical model to a very idiomatic usage are probably not all that  useful for a beginning or intermediate learner. In order to introduce a  learner to the sense "or" of "ki", I'd indeed prefer to start with the  more straightforward examples of (direct and implied) questions, while  making them aware that it has many other idiomatic extensions, which  they should watch out for and learn as they encounter them.


میرے خیال میں یہاں اتنی لمبی داستان کی ضرورت نہیں ہے۔ سادہ الفاظ میں اِسے آپ با محاورہ انگریزی میں کچھ اِس طرح کہہ سکتے ہیں۔

............. you may or may not remember.


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> میرے خیال میں یہاں اتنی لمبی داستان کی ضرورت نہیں ہے۔ سادہ الفاظ میں اِسے آپ با محاورہ انگریزی میں کچھ اِس طرح کہہ سکتے ہیں۔
> 
> ............. you may or may not remember.



جی، بالکل بالکل! اس جملے کا با محاورہ انگریزی میں ترجمہ کرنے میں تو واقعی اتنی کوئی خاص دقّت پیش نہیں آتی. چھوٹی داستان سے ہی کام چل جاتا.
 لیکن اس لڑی کا جو اصلی مدّعا ہے، یعنی "یا" کے معنی میں"کہ" کا استعمال، اس کے ڈھانچے میں اس جملے کو ڈالنا میرے لئے تھوڑا بھاری پڑ گیا.


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