# Feeling like a loser (Verlierer, Lusche, Versager)



## BryanCr7Know

Hi


I am not sure how to translate the gerund part.
Sentence: Don't go to bed feeling like a loser. 
My attempt:
Geh ins Bett nicht wie ein Verlierer zu fühlen.
T
The other sentence:
Ich will ins Bett wie ein Verlierer zu fühlen nicht gehen.
Ich will ins Bett nicht gehen wie ein Verlierer mich? zu fühlen.

I have no idea...about these gerund situations in German, plus I feel like there is a mich missing somewhere in there but I have no idea where to put it. : (


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## Frieder

BryanCr7Know said:


> Don't go to bed feeling like a loser.


 
I don't understand the underlying meaning. Is it

Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Try feeling like a winner first.
Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Always remember: you're a winner.
Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. You shouldn't sleep if you're a loser.
Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Make sure  you're a winner before you do so.
Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. You haven't earned it yet.
Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Make sure  you _are _a loser before you do so.​
The translation will heavily depend on what you mean.


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## BryanCr7Know

Frieder said:


> I don't understand the underlying meaning. Is it
> 
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Try feeling like a winner first.
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Always remember: you're a winner.
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. You shouldn't sleep if you're a loser.
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Make sure  you're a winner before you do so.
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. You haven't earned it yet.
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Make sure  you _are _a loser before you do so.​
> The translation will heavily depend on what you mean.


Well, in that case, it would be this one:
Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Make sure you're a* winner* *before you do so*.


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## deltron

One possible scenario for this dialogue in English is:
Person1: I can't believe I messed up so bad. I feel like such a loser. Oh well, I have to go to bed.
Person2: Come on, don't go to bed feeling like a loser.

The underlying message is "cheer up before you go to sleep," not necessarily that you have to feel like a winner, just that you don't feel depressed anymore (neutral state is fine).

I expect the German version might go like this:
Person1: Ich habe alles vermasselt. Ich bin so ein Loser..naja, ich muss schlafen gehen.
Person2: Komm schon..mit solchen Gedanken (bitte) nicht schlafen gehen.

But to try it in one sentence: Geh bitte mal nicht schlafen mit dem Gefühl, dass du ein Loser bist.

Hopefully enough context for the native speakers to propose the best option


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## Frieder

BryanCr7Know said:


> Well, in that case, it would be this one:
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Make sure you're a* winner* *before you do so*.



Geh nicht schlafen wenn du dich wie ein Verlierer fühlst. (Geh lieber raus und mach sie fertig)


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## elroy

Frieder said:


> Geh nicht schlafen wenn du dich wie ein Verlierer fühlst.


 What do you think of "Lusche" instead of "Verlierer"?


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## bearded

And what about _Versager_?


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## berndf

elroy said:


> What do you think of "Lusche" instead of "Verlierer"?


_Lusche_ applied to a person has some connotations I don't detect in _looser_, like being a boring  and/or unrefined person and/or having a sloppy appearance.


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## elroy

“Loser” in (American) English is very broad.  Someone who is boring, unrefined, and/or unkempt could certainly be described as a “loser.”

Perhaps “Verlierer” and “Lusche” each convey distinct traits that the other doesn’t, and “loser” encompasses both?  What do you think?

I think “Versager” is close to “Verlierer.”

You say “ ‘Lusche’ applied to a person.”  What else can “Lusche” be applied to?


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## berndf

elroy said:


> “Loser” in (American) English is very broad. Someone who is boring, unrefined, and/or unkempt could certainly be described as a “loser.”


All these things can *make* you a loser. And being a loser can *make* you boring. But loser does not *mean* any of those things. That is, I think, the main difference.


elroy said:


> I think “Versager” is close to “Verlierer.”


Yes. _Versager_ is maybe even better. _Verlierer_ is less negatively connotated than _loser_. I may simply mean that you had bad luck or met an opponent who was even better than you. I didn't have be a failure on your part. Of course, this meaning exists for English _loser_ as well but in most cases it has more negative implications than _Verlierer_.


elroy said:


> You say “ ‘Lusche’ applied to a person.” What else can “Lusche” be applied to?


The modern primary meaning is _playing card of low value_. In Skat, the most popular card game in Germany, every card has a value between 0 and 11 attached to it. The 9s, 8s and 7s have a value of zero and are called _Luschen_.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> But loser does not *mean* any of those things.


 No, in colloquial American English we do use "loser" to *mean* these things. 


berndf said:


> _Verlierer_ is less negatively connotated than _loser_. I may simply mean that you had bad luck or met an opponent who was even better than you. I didn't have be a failure on your part. Of course, this meaning exists for English _loser_ as well but in most cases it has more negative implications than _Verlierer_.


 Yes, "loser" in English is a judgment/criticism of the person and not an evaluation of their bad luck.  So I agree with all of the above except that I would say that while a loser may _also_ be someone who had bad luck, "loser" doesn't convey that.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> I would say that while a loser may _also_ be someone who had bad luck, "loser" doesn't convey that.


I would say it depends on context. E.g. in _The loser of the 1960 presidential elections was Richard Nixon _it means that (the race was very close and could easily have gone the other way). Or in _sore loser_, being a _loser_ is not meant in a judgemental way but the attribute _sore_ is.


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## elroy

Those are distinct meanings/usages of "loser" that I would expect to be listed separately in a dictionary.  I was only referring to the one meaning that matches the topic of this thread ("feeling like a loser").  Sorry if that wasn't clear.


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## bearded

'Lusche' kling sehr umgangssprachlich - in meinen nichtmuttersprachlichen Ohren. Da wir dabei sind: mir fallen auch noch ein paar Wörter zur Übersetzung von 'loser' ein:
_Blindgänger, Niete.. _


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Those are distinct meanings/usages of "loser" that I would expect to be listed separately in a dictionary.  I was only referring to the one meaning that matches the topic of this thread ("feeling like a loser").  Sorry if that wasn't clear.


OK, even if discounting all meanings not fitting the current context, I still feel a semantic mismatch between _loser_ and _Lusche_ despite their large semantic overlap. The core meaning of _loser_ is _underachiever_ and that of _Lusche_ is _worthless person_. One can be highly successful in life and still be a worthless person.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> The core meaning of _loser_ is underachiever


 I'm not sure what gives you that impression.  As I said, "loser" is very broad in American English; it's basically the opposite of "cool," which encompasses a lot of things.  

I continue to suspect, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that "loser" is a hypernym of "Lusche."  In other words, all "Luschen" are losers but not all losers are "Luschen."


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## berndf

elroy said:


> I'm not sure what gives you that impression.


Usage I have encountered so far. If you look, e.g., for people calling Trump a _loser_ then it is always related to some failure, in business or to deliver on certain political promises. But I have never heard or read of him being called a _loser_ for being an immoral or vulgar person, although he has often been characterised of being one.


elroy said:


> it's basically the opposite of "cool," which encompasses a lot of things.


Yes, but almost always related to some notion of _success_.


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## elroy

As I said, "loser" is used for a _*lot*_ of things.  Maybe you just haven't come across them all.  That said, perhaps there are indeed "Lusche" traits that don't overlap with "loser" traits.  The ones you mentioned earlier (boring, unrefined, unkempt) definitely do.  Immoral, not so much I would say; it's too serious.  Vulgar, not typically.  If "immoral" and "vulgar" are key characteristics of "Luschen," then maybe that's the semantic mismatch you feel?


berndf said:


> Yes, but almost always related to some measure of _success_.


 No, anything that is "uncool" -- for whatever reason -- falls under "loser."  For example, someone who dresses poorly and doesn't know how to behave in social situations can be called a "loser" -- and that has nothing to do with success or failure.  (And this is a very ordinary and widespread usage.  It's not a far-fetched example or anything.)

Children (unfortunately) call each other "losers" all the time, and they're not referring to success or failure.

It may have originated as a term referring to failure, but if that's the case then it has since broadened its semantic scope significantly.

Here's a relevant English Only thread: Suck VS Loser

Relevant quotes:

_It can also mean someone who is "not cool."_

_It may be the person calling him/her a loser simply does not like that person._

_People use the word "loser" to describe a person who doesn't meet their expectations. If you value hard work, then a lazy person could be "a loser" in your opinion. If you value creativity, then an unimaginative person could seem like "a loser" to you._

_"Loser guys" means "undesirable men" in this sentence. Women are often approached by men in bars or at parties. Many of these men are men that the women consider undesirable. Maybe they are too ugly. Maybe they are too poor. Maybe they tell too many stupid jokes. There are many reasons why women could consider some man to be a loser._


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Immoral, not so much I would say; it's too serious. Vulgar, not typically. If "immoral" and "vulgar" are key characteristics of "Luschen," then


It is not the primary meaning today, but the original meaning is _bitch_, both literally and figuratively. If applies to a person this original meaning is still present. How much it does depends on the region.


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## sma099

A bit late to the party, but a few comments I want to make:
Part of the problem translating the sentence stems from the ambiguity of the original term "loser", as elroy explained (not that he needs my approval, but I come across that broader usage on US TV and in movies regularly).

_Versager_: a strong word, but it could be a good translation.
_Verlierer: _I have to say this is not a word I personally use or could imagine using in this sense, but perhaps it works for many others.

_Lusche:_ I find it interesting how the definition at DWDS, for instance, _(" liederlicher Mensch, besonders schlampige Frau") _doesn't represent at all how this word is used in reality. In my experience and also in the corpus examples, _Lusche _refers to someone who is weak and powerless and generally lacking ability and competence. It is often used in football or sports in general to describe a team made up of...well, _losers_.  Players who won't pose a challenge, who won't give you a hard time. I would say there is also an overlap with _sissy_ in English. I don't find it as strong as _Versager_ and as strong as the original _loser_ either, so it doesn't work for me here.

I want to ask what the other natives think of _Loser_? Sure, it's an Anglicism, but I somehow think it encompasses everything the broad original _loser_ does.


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## elroy

sma099 said:


> _Verlierer: _I_ _have to say this is not a word I personally use or could imagine using in this sense


 Same, but since @Frieder, a paragon of good German diction in my opinion, used it, and because I’m not a native, I dismissed my intuitive judgment.


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## Alan Evangelista

Frieder said:


> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Try feeling like a winner first.
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Always remember: you're a winner.



I can not even perceive the difference between these two (feeling you are a winner and remembering you are a winner), as "being a winner" is subjective.



Frieder said:


> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. You shouldn't sleep if you're a loser.
> (...)
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. You haven't earned it yet.
> Don't go to bed if you're feeling like a loser. Make sure you _are _a loser before you do so.



I wouldn't even imagine these negative meanings. The positive intention of cheering up someone seems obvious in the sentence to me. Could a corresponding sentence in German (eg Geh nicht ins Bett, wenn du ein Versager fühlst) mean this?


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## berndf

sma099 said:


> _Lusche:_ I find it interesting how the definition at DWDS, for instance, _(" liederlicher Mensch, besonders schlampige Frau") _doesn't represent at all how this word is used in reality.


It depends very much on lingustic region and age group the speaker belongs to how active this meaning still is. You have to be careful not to overgeneralize your own experience. But the sense is certainly obsoescing (veraltend).


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## Alan Evangelista

elroy said:


> No, anything that is "uncool" -- for whatever reason -- falls under "loser." For example, someone who dresses poorly and doesn't know how to behave in social situations can be called a "loser" -- and that has nothing to do with success or failure. (And this is a very ordinary and widespread usage. It's not a far-fetched example or anything.)



Success and failure are subjective terms. They are not restricted to the financial context. For instance, someone who dresses bad is a failure in making a physical good impression of him/herself to the world. Someone who is boring/shy and have difficulty with social relationships is a failure in making social contact. Someone who only cares about studying in high school or college may be considered a failure in enjoying life. In all these contexts, "loser" could be used in English. Nevertheless, in all these cases, IMHO it still means "someone which is an underachiever (= a failure) in something". It is just the "something" that varies.


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## elroy

You can force a “success/failure” reading onto these, but that’s hardly a useful exercise.  The distinction we’ve been discussing is pertinent, and has been clearly expounded, I think.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> As I said, "loser" is used for a _*lot*_ of things.  Maybe you just haven't come across them all.  That said, perhaps there are indeed "Lusche" traits that don't overlap with "loser" traits.  The ones you mentioned earlier (boring, unrefined, unkempt) definitely do.  Immoral, not so much I would say; it's too serious.  Vulgar, not typically.  If "immoral" and "vulgar" are key characteristics of "Luschen," then maybe that's the semantic mismatch you feel?
> No, anything that is "uncool" -- for whatever reason -- falls under "loser."  For example, someone who dresses poorly and doesn't know how to behave in social situations can be called a "loser" -- and that has nothing to do with success or failure.  (And this is a very ordinary and widespread usage.  It's not a far-fetched example or anything.)
> 
> Children (unfortunately) call each other "losers" all the time, and they're not referring to success or failure.
> 
> It may have originated as a term referring to failure, but if that's the case then it has since broadened its semantic scope significantly.
> 
> Here's a relevant English Only thread: Suck VS Loser
> 
> Relevant quotes:
> 
> _It can also mean someone who is "not cool."_
> 
> _It may be the person calling him/her a loser simply does not like that person._
> 
> _People use the word "loser" to describe a person who doesn't meet their expectations. If you value hard work, then a lazy person could be "a loser" in your opinion. If you value creativity, then an unimaginative person could seem like "a loser" to you._
> 
> _"Loser guys" means "undesirable men" in this sentence. Women are often approached by men in bars or at parties. Many of these men are men that the women consider undesirable. Maybe they are too ugly. Maybe they are too poor. Maybe they tell too many stupid jokes. There are many reasons why women could consider some man to be a loser._


Yes, you are right. Statements like _racism is uncool_ are perfectly normal and they have nothing to do with _failure vs. success_.


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## Schlabberlatz

deltron said:


> Geh bitte mal nicht schlafen mit dem Gefühl, dass du ein Loser bist.


Das ist gut, aber das ›mal‹ passt nicht so recht.
Geh (bitte) nicht schlafen mit dem Gefühl, dass du ein Loser bist.
Geh nicht schlafen mit dem Gefühl, ein Versager zu sein.
Oder, wenn der Kontext klar ist:
Leg dich nicht mit dem Gefühl hin, ein Versager zu sein.


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