# על vs. בשביל



## אדם

What is the difference between the prepositions על and בשביל?

On Babylon it showed על to be mostly "on," "above," etc. And בשביל to be "because," "for," etc.

What I'm confused about.. is if בשביל is used as "for" why would you say  תודה על הכול?

Where should על be used, and where should בשביל be used when talking in terms of "for"?

And when should בשביל be used as "because" instead of  כי?


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## Mjolnir

תודה על הכל is correct. תודה בשביל הכל isn't.
בשביל can be used like this as "for" - "for what?" - "בשביל מה?"
Also "one for all, all for one!" - "אחד בשביל כולם, כולם בשביל אחד!"

- "Why did you do it?" - "למה עשית את זה?"
- "I did it to save you!" - "עשיתי את זה כדי / בשביל להציל אותך!"

Both כדי and בשביל can be used here.

Maybe others can give you actual rules


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## JaiHare

Hauser said:


> What is the difference between the prepositions על and בשביל?
> 
> On Babylon it showed על to be mostly "on," "above," etc. And בשביל to be "because," "for," etc.
> 
> What I'm confused about.. is if בשביל is used as "for" why would you say  תודה על הכול?
> 
> Where should על be used, and where should בשביל be used when talking in terms of "for"?
> 
> And when should בשביל be used as "because" instead of  כי?



 You're trying to be too literal. Prepositions are always squirmy between various languages. We say "thanks for __" in English. In Hebrew you say "thanks on __". What's the difference? Are my thanks really "for __" or "because of __"? Don't be too literal in your dealings with language. It will only give you a headache. Suffice it to say, על does NOT mean "for" in regular usage. בשביל means "for the sake of" or "because of", etc. But do not think that the usage of these prepositions EVER has a one-to-one connection to English. English has a lot more prepositions than Hebrew, and (as such) Hebrew uses its relatively few prepositions to cover the range of ideas that English uses with its relative plethora.

Yonah


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## eshcar

JaiHare said:


> You're trying to be too literal. Prepositions are always squirmy between various languages. We say "thanks for __" in English. In Hebrew you say "thanks on __". What's the difference? Are my thanks really "for __" or "because of __"? Don't be too literal in your dealings with language. It will only give you a headache. Suffice it to say, על does NOT mean "for" in regular usage. בשביל means "for the sake of" or "because of", etc. But do not think that the usage of these prepositions EVER has a one-to-one connection to English. English has a lot more prepositions than Hebrew, and (as such) Hebrew uses its relatively few prepositions to cover the range of ideas that English uses with its relative plethora.
> 
> Yonah


 
I agree with JaiHare - the verb להודות simply takes the preposition על. So you would say, for example: אני מודה לך על הפרחים (_I thank you for the flowers). _It's no different than להתעניין ב or לאהוב את - these are just the fixed prepositions that follow these verbs.

As for בשביל vs. כי - I have to say that בשביל is hardly ever used for 'because' (it's a very old form, not really used today), so you really shouldn't use it like that.
Use בשביל/כדי to say 'in order to'/'for/'to' ( for example - באתי כדי/בשביל לראות אותך - I came to see you). Oh, notice also that כדי needs an infinitive after it, but בשביל doesn't, so that:
הפרחים האלה הם בשביל אחותי
הפרחים האלה הם כדי אחותי​but:
אני מתעמל בשביל לרזות
אני מתעמל כדי לרזות​
For 'because' just use 'כי' or 'מפני ש':​איחרתי כי ירד גשם
איחרתי מפני שירד גשם​


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## אדם

Alright, in a way using "on" in that way does seem to make sense when I think about it.

Tell me if these senences are correct:

למה אתה שונא אותי?
כי אתה התכון לי!
סליחה, אני לא רוצה אתה לשנוא אותי, כי יש לך אוכל. אני רעב, אז אני רוצה לאכול.מוסר אותי אוכל כדי! עכשיו!
כנס.
תודה על הכול!​

In the second to last sentence of the third line, could I have used בשביל instead of כדי? Tell me if that dialog was correct (and yes I know its a weird dialog).


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## Mjolnir

Hauser said:


> למה אתה שונא אותי?
> בשביל אתה התכון לי! (1)
> סליחה, אני לא רוצה אתה לשנוא אותי, (2) כי יש לך אוכל. אני רעב, אז אני רוצה לאכול.מוסר אותי אוכל כדי! (3) עכשיו!
> כנס.
> תודה על הכול!​


Red - incorrect.
I'll try to correct them:
(1) I don't understand what you want to say.
(2) סליחה, אני לא רוצה לשנוא אותך / שתשנאי אותי, כי יש לך אוכל.
(3) תן לי אוכל!

Can you write the dialogue in English?
​


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## אדם

Sorry, yeah.

Why do you hate me?
Because you are mean to me!
Sorry, I don't want you to hate me, because you have food. I am hungry, so I want to eat. Give me food because of this (I just realized how horribly wrong I used כדי) Now!
Fine.
Thank you for everything!

The first בשביל I actually changed to כי, but I suppose you were replying before you saw the change.


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## Mjolnir

Yeah 

Why do you hate me? - *למה אתה שונא אותי*?
Because you are mean to me! - *בגלל/משום שאתה מרושע אלי*
Sorry, I don't want you to hate me, because you have food. I am hungry, so I want to eat. Give me food because of this (I just realized how horribly wrong I used כדי) Now! - *סליחה, אני לא רוצה שתשנא אותי, בגלל/משום שיש לך אוכל. אני רעב, אז אני רוצה לאכול. תן לי אוכל בגלל זה. עכשיו!*
Fine. - *בסדר*
Thank you for everything! - *תודה על הכל!*


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## אדם

Alright, thanks. That makes sense. 

I have some questions about משום ש and בגלל and כי, so I'll post that in another thread.


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## cfu507

יכול להיות ש"על" משמש כ"בשביל" רק בהקשר להודיה
Perhaps על is בשביל only in the context of gratefulness.

תודה. על לא דבר   - Thanks. You're welcome 

תודה על שהית לצידי - Thank you for being there for me
תודה על עזרתכם
תודה על שיתוף הפעולה

תודה. על מה תודה? באמת שזה היה כלום


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## אדם

Wow, that actually does sound like a great possibility. Thanks for your input cfu!


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## eshcar

cfu507 said:


> יכול להיות ש"על" משמש כ"בשביל" רק בהקשר להודיה
> Perhaps על is בשביל only in the context of gratefulness.
> 
> תודה. על לא דבר - Thanks. You're welcome
> 
> תודה על שהית לצידי - Thank you for being there for me
> תודה על עזרתכם
> תודה על שיתוף הפעולה
> 
> תודה. על מה תודה? באמת שזה היה כלום


 

The way I see it, על doesn't replace בשביל when you say תודה על - and you can see that they are not interchangealbe (if anything, you can replace it with בעבור).

על comes in conjuction with several verbs, where it has no relation with its "regular" meaning - 'on'

For example: לרחם על, להצטער על and even לחשוב על. I'm sure there are more, these are just a few examples I could think of.


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## cfu507

eshcar said:


> The way I see it, על doesn't replace בשביל when you say תודה על - and you can see that they are not interchangealbe (if anything, you can replace it with בעבור).
> 
> על comes in conjuction with several verbs, where it has no relation with its "regular" meaning - 'on'
> 
> For example: לרחם על, להצטער על and even לחשוב על. I'm sure there are more, these are just a few examples I could think of.


 
Right, it is also for:
אני מצטערת. אין על מה להצטער, לא נגרם שום נזק
It means:
אין סיבה להצטער

If you have Babylon you can see that one of the translations for על is about.
I thoght about it again and I think that maybe על comes from על שום (because). What do you think?


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