# Flat white



## Mario15041956

Quando sono andato ad un bar, volevo ordinare un macchiato lungo e' un 'flat white' ma non sapevo come si dice in italiano, 'flat white'.


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## TrentinaNE

Io non so neanche in inglese che cos'è un "flat white."    Parli del caffè?

Elisabetta


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## You little ripper!

TrentinaNE said:
			
		

> Io non so neanche in inglese che cos'è un "flat white."  Parli del caffè?
> 
> Elisabetta


It's basically a cappuccino without the froth, just milk and coffee. Café au lait.


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## Alfry

Caffelatte, then.


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## Mario15041956

Si', si',
Un semplice 'white coffee', non e' caffelatte perche' la maggoranza della bevanda e' l'acqua.


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## You little ripper!

Mario15041956 said:
			
		

> Si', si',
> Un semplice 'white coffee', non e' caffelatte perche' la maggoranza della bevanda e' l'acqua.


Mario, I don't know what part of Australia you are from but a _flat white_ in both Sydney and Perth, 2 cities I have lived in most of my life, is the English name for a _café au lait_ or _caffe latte._ What you're talking about is simply a coffee with a little milk or a white coffee. I think you would have to specify that you wanted to weaken it with hot water because a coffee that you get in a bar in Italy is strong stuff.


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## combustion

Mario15041956 said:
			
		

> Quando sono andato ad un bar, volevo ordinare un macchiato lungo e' un 'flat white' ma non sapevo come si dice in italiano, 'flat white'.


 
I think that the name "latte macchiato" could be the way to call the flat white in an italian bar... isn't it?
bye bye
comb...


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## You little ripper!

combustion said:
			
		

> I think that the name "latte macchiato" could be the way to call the flat white in an italian bar... isn't it?
> bye bye
> comb...


Comb, I thought a _macchiato_ was a coffee with the tiniest amount of milk in it. Mario is talking about a coffee that has hot water added to it (he said in post 5 that most of it was water) to weaken it, as well as milk. (I think)


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## combustion

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> Comb, I thought a _macchiato_ was a coffee with the tiniest amount of milk in it. Mario is talking about a coffee that has hot water added to it (he said in post 5 that most of it was water) to weaken it, as well as milk. (I think)


 
A "caffe' macchiato" is for example: 90% coffee, 10% milk
A "latte macchiato" is: 80% milk, 20% coffee

In Italy the unique way to mix coffee and water is in the "caffe' shakerato" and it is coffee and ice shakered together... but obviously it is a cold drink... (Sincerely I don't think that in Italy the flat white really exists...)
Bye bye!
comby


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## You little ripper!

combustion said:
			
		

> A "caffe' macchiato" is for example: 90% coffee, 10% milk
> A "latte macchiato" is: 80% milk, 20% coffee
> 
> In Italy the unique way to mix coffee and water is in the "caffe' shakerato" and it is coffee and ice shakered together... but obviously it is a cold drink... (Sincerely I don't think that in Italy the flat white really exists...)
> Bye bye!
> comby


I didn't know about _latte macchiato._ Interesting! I find the word _shakerato_ quite amusing. Why don't they use the Italian word _scuotere _I wonder?


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## combustion

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> I didn't know about _latte macchiato._ Interesting! I find the word _shakerato_ quite amusing. Why don't they use the Italian word _scuotere _I wonder?


 
Simply because in English... "fa piu' fico! " 

(if necessary I'll delete this post...)

(Caffe' scosso sounds quite provincial!)

A friend of mine suggests also that in Italy the Shaker is the Shaker... and the "caffe' shakerato" is mixed in the shaker...  so the name!

Bye bye
comb&friend!


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## ElaineG

Isn't a "caff`e americano" (which I've seen being served in Italy) coffee + hot water?


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## You little ripper!

ElaineG said:
			
		

> Isn't a "caff`e americano" (which I've seen being served in Italy) coffee + hot water?


That sounds right, as long as it has milk added to it.


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## Mario15041956

Thanks Charles,
I'm in Melbourne and I was wanting to order in Melbourne (for my wife who's not into black coffee and likes it strong, but with milk) and usually ask for a flat white but as I'm trying to get my Italian up to speed for a trip next year I wanted to get the correct Italian terminology. I think ElaineG was on the mark with 'caffe' americano' and your addendum of 'with a little milk added', however, they may look at me somewhat askance if I ask for a caffe' americano in Lygon St.
E per tutti gli altri correspondenti, grazie tante per le vostre risposte


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## lsp

Charles Costante said:
			
		

> That sounds right, as long as it has milk added to it.


Caffè americano doesn't automatically mean with milk, it's just _longer_ (more hot water) than espresso, and often instant (nescafe). If you order it americano, its default is black. You'd need to specify you wanted milk (and if it's following a meal... prepare yourself for some strange expressions).

Comb is correct, that mostly hot milk with a spot of coffee is latte macchiato (think: milk with enough coffee to stain the white color a bit, and the reverse for caffè macchiato, which has just enough milk to stain the black coffee a bit). 

Flat white (mostly water) is not a standard offering in Italian bars (coffeeshops) yet. You'll have to explain it a bit.

Sorry to insist, però del caffè, devo dire che me ne intendo.


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## You little ripper!

Mario15041956 said:
			
		

> Thanks Charles,
> I'm in Melbourne and I was wanting to order in Melbourne (for my wife who's not into black coffee and likes it strong, but with milk) and usually ask for a flat white but as I'm trying to get my Italian up to speed for a trip next year I wanted to get the correct Italian terminology. I think ElaineG was on the mark with 'caffe' americano' and your addendum of 'with a little milk added', however, they may look at me somewhat askance if I ask for a caffe' americano in Lygon St.
> E per tutti gli altri correspondenti, grazie tante per le vostre risposte


In that case I'd ask for _un caffè australiano con un po' di latte._ Hopefully that should get your wife what she wants, but just to be on the safe side I'd also add _a weak/very weak coffee with milk.  _



			
				lsp said:
			
		

> Caffè americano doesn't automatically mean with milk, it's just _longer_ (more hot water) than espresso, and often instant (nescafe). If you order it americano, its default is black. You'd need to specify you wanted milk (and if it's following a meal... prepare yourself for some strange expressions).
> 
> Comb is correct, that mostly hot milk with a spot of coffee is latte macchiato (think: milk with enough coffee to stain the white color a bit, and the reverse for caffè macchiato, which has just enough milk to stain the black coffee a bit).
> 
> Flat white (mostly water) is not a standard offering in Italian bars (coffeeshops) yet. You'll have to explain it a bit.
> 
> Sorry to insist, però del caffè, devo dire che me ne intendo.


The only reason I said _as long as it has milk added to it_ is because Mario had asked for a _flat *white*._ If he just asked for a _caffè americano",_ as you just said, they would bring his wife black one. He would have to ask for _un caffè americano con un po' di latte._


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## lsp

As an FYI to those that followed this thread, today's NYTimes Travel section did a small piece called _Coffee Down Under/Blame it on Roma_, describing how Australia in particular has adapted Italian coffee with its own Aussie varieties including "short black," and "flat white" (a cappy w/o froth). According to this blurb, latte art (designs made from the coffee and froth, like roses or fern leaves, on the surface) are awarded prizes and the art of coffemaking is so popular, technical colleges offer classes.

EDIT: Cappuccino senza schiuma, back to the original question.


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## Paulfromitaly

> Flat white - Wikipedia
> 
> A flat white is a coffee drink consisting of espresso with microfoam (steamed milk with small, fine bubbles and a glossy or velvety consistency). It is comparable to a latte, but smaller in volume and with less microfoam, therefore having a higher proportion of coffee to milk, and milk that is more velvety in consistency – allowing the espresso to dominate the flavour, while being supported by the milk.


Yet again a different take..


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## rrose17

I think "flat white" has been firmly established now in most coffee shops in North America, at least, exactly as this Wiki entry reads. This wasn't the case 10 or 15 years ago.


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## Paulfromitaly

rrose17 said:


> I think "flat white" has been firmly established now in most coffee shops in North America, at least, exactly as this Wiki entry reads. This wasn't the case 10 or 15 years ago.


If so, that's what I'd call a "caffè macchiato".


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## symposium

I mean, in Italy we don't have a large variety of choices on a general level: caffè (expresso or espresso), cappuccino (I guess everybody knows that), caffè macchiato (expresso with a small amount of milk), corretto (expresso with a small amount of liquor). Basically those are all the kinds of coffee you can ask for in most Italian bars (cafés).


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Is there such a thing as "caffè stretto"? I'm wondering because in French one can ask for what translates to "squeezed coffee", extra-srong.


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## theartichoke

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> Is there such a thing as "caffè stretto"? I'm wondering because in French one can ask for what translates to "squeezed coffee", extra-srong.



I've heard of "un caffè ristretto," though I've never ordered one. A regular espresso, almost anywhere in Italy, is coffee perfection, as far as I'm concerned. Though I did recently order a cappuccino in an extremely unpromising-looking bar in Florence, and was taken aback to be asked "vuole il cacao?". I said "sì," and got the most delicious cappuccino I'd had in years. I'd forgotten how a dusting of cocoa used to be standard on cappuccino back in the day (the 1990s, perhaps?), and how good it was.


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## You little ripper!

This is a caffè ristretto:

Caffè Ristretto - How to order coffee in Italy

_This is the strongest and most concentrated espresso drink. It is made with about half the amount of water but the same amount of coffee as a regular espresso. It is pure and intense._


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## london calling

Yes, it's what we have here in the south. In the north it tends to be 'lungo' (I hate it). Getting back to the OP, a 'flat white', now called 'americana', is not available in Italy (or at least certainly not in my local bars). It would be frowned on and called _brodaglia/chofek_a.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Grazie — "ristretto" must've been what I was thinking of!


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> Yes, it's what we have here in the south. In the north it tends to be 'lungo' (I hate it). Getting back to the OP, a 'flat white', now called 'americana', is not available in Italy (or at least certainly not in my local bars). It would be frowned on and called _brodaglia/chofek_a.


Do you think Wiki's definition is accurate? That's simply a _macchiato con schiuma_ to me.


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## london calling

Paulfromitaly said:


> Do you think Wiki's definition is accurate? That's simply a _macchiato con schiuma_ to me.


Wiki's definition of what? A 'macchiato con schiuma' is not the same thing as 'americana/flat white', which has no 'schiuma' (that's what 'flat' means).


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## theartichoke

Paulfromitaly said:


> Do you think Wiki's definition is accurate? That's simply a _macchiato con schiuma_ to me.



There's a lot more milk in a "flat white" than there is in any _macchiato con schiuma _or _senza_. It's only recently become a thing in Canadian coffee bars, and frankly, I think you have to be a pretty serious coffee geek to be able to sense this "microfoam" business while drinking one. Somebody provides a detailed explanation here, though: Flat White vs Latte - Peter J Thomson. Depending on where you go, it's either going to taste like a cappuccino with less foam, or a stronger version of caffe latte. 

This whole thread seems to have got off to a confusing start because the OP asked what a "flat white" was in Italian, but actually wanted to know how to say "a large cup of non-Italian-style brewed coffee with milk in it." They are in no way the same thing: the former is very roughly _un cappuccino senza schiuma_, and the latter is (also very roughly) _un caffè americano con un po' di latte_.


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## london calling

To be clear. A 'flat white/americana' is basically filter coffee (so lots of water)  and some cold milk. I drink it quite happily in the UK and at home but would never dream of asking for it here in a bar: they'd probably lock me up!

Seriously, they wouldn't understand what I wanted. It is an alien notion to Italians.


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## Sepia

london calling said:


> To be clear. A 'flat white/americana' is basically filter coffee (so lots of water)  and some cold milk. I drink it quite happily in the UK and at home but would never dream of asking for it here in a bar: they'd probably lock me up!
> ...



They would. They have a speical ward at the mental institutions for such cases.


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## Paulfromitaly

london calling said:


> s 'americana/flat white', which has no 'schiuma'


That's not what Wiki says, "A flat white is a coffee drink consisting of espresso with *microfoam* " but this definition could be inaccurate.


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## theartichoke

london calling said:


> To be clear. A 'flat white/americana' is basically filter coffee (so lots of water)  and some cold milk. I drink it quite happily in the UK and at home but would never dream of asking for it here in a bar: they'd probably lock me up!
> 
> Seriously, they wouldn't understand what I wanted. It is an alien notion to Italians.



I agree heartily with everything except the first statement. If you (and the OP of 14 years ago, for that matter) use the term "flat white" to mean "filter coffee (so lots of water) and some cold milk," then there are clearly two different meanings out there in English for "flat white." 

Whether it's a regional thing, or whether one term is old-fashioned and the other new-fangled, I can't say, but for me and a lot of others on this thread, Wiki is right and a "flat white" is a mix of espresso and steamed milk in particular proportions with particular affectations.


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## london calling

theartichoke said:


> Whether it's a regional thing, or whether one term is old-fashioned and the other new-fangled, I can't say, but for me and a lot of others on this thread, Wiki is right and a "flat white" is a mix of espresso and steamed milk in particular proportions with particular affectations.


I agree with  this (the bold is mine):


lsp said:


> Flat white *(mostly water) *is not a standard offering in Italian bars (coffeeshops) yet.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Paulfromitaly said:


> That's not what Wiki says, "A flat white is a coffee drink consisting of espresso with *microfoam* " but this definition could be inaccurate.



Sorry, but I have no idea what "microfoam" is.


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## london calling

I'm not sure what microfoam is either but as far as l'm concerned flat white coffee doesn't have any foam at all anyway, so I think it's safe to say I disagree with Wiki.


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## Mary49

Scoprite il flat white | Siemens Home    "È stato inventato in Australia o in Nuova Zelanda? Dipende a chi lo si chiede, visto che entrambi i Paesi tendono ad arrogarsene il merito. In ogni caso, il flat white non è semplicemente un caffelatte in tazza piccola, come pensano alcuni: preparato con una o due dosi di espresso e una microschiuma di latte che va a mescolarsi con il caffè, ha una consistenza molto più vellutata. A differenza del cappuccino, non è guarnito di schiuma, da cui il “flat”, piatto".


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## rrose17

theartichoke said:


> Wiki is right and a "flat white" is a mix of espresso and steamed milk in particular proportions with particular affectations.


  this is certainly the case where we're from (Canada/North America). It's even made its way to Istanbul where recently a friend (okay a little bit snobby) declared one coffee shop as serving the best flat white in town.

Crossed with Mary. I never heard of the "down-under" connection.


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## london calling

Mary49 said:


> Scoprite il flat white | Siemens Home    "È stato inventato in Australia o in Nuova Zelanda? Dipende a chi lo si chiede, visto che entrambi i Paesi tendono ad arrogarsene il merito. In ogni caso, il flat white non è semplicemente un caffelatte in tazza piccola, come pensano alcuni: preparato con una o due dosi di espresso e una microschiuma di latte che va a mescolarsi con il caffè, ha una consistenza molto più vellutata. A differenza del cappuccino, non è guarnito di schiuma, da cui il “flat”, piatto".


Appunto. Non c'è schiuma. Che poi sia stato inventato 'down-under', non saprei.


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## A User

london calling said:


> It would be frowned on and called _brodaglia/*chofek*_*a*.


Ciofèca


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