# אל vs. אלוה



## rushalaim

Are those *אל* and *אלוה* really different words from different roots?


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## Drink

rushalaim said:


> Are those *אל* and *אלוה* really different words from different roots?



No, they are clearly related. However, it is unclear exactly which one came first and how and why the other was derived.


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## rushalaim

Drink said:


> No, they are clearly related. However, it is unclear exactly which one came first and how and why the other was derived.


1. Why their plural are different too: *אלים*-*אל* and *אלוהים*-*אלוה* ?
2. Why *אלוהים* is always written as *אלהים* ? Though, *אלוה *is written sometimes with/without _Waw_-letter.

(Deuteronomy 11:30) Phoenicians named it as *אלון* (Hebrew *אל *?) from the root *אלה* = _"terebinth"_. And _Aramaic _names _Hebrew _*אל* as *אלא*.
Some say that *אלוה *is from the root *אול*

3. May be *אלה *is just complete inscription of* אל *? The same like _Hebrew _*אם* and _Aramaic _*אמא*, or _Hebrew _*אב* and _Aramaic _*אבא* ?
Though, *אב* lost _Hei_-letter in plural as *אבות* , however *אם* kept _Hei_-letter in plural as *אמהות*. May it looks like?:
*אם*-*אמה*-*אמהות*
(*אב*-*אבה*-*אבות*(*אבהות*
(*אל*-*אלה*-*אלים*(*אלוהים*


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## origumi

I don't think there's an agreement among scholars about the relation of אל _el_ and אלוה _eloah_.
_Eloah_ is similar to Arabic _ilah_ and Aramaic _elah_. _Elohim_ appears in Ugaritic _'lhm_. Therefore this variant doesn't look like a Hebrew invention.
Deuteronomy 11:30 mentions a place _Eloney More_ in a Canaanite land, but not that this name is Phoenician, and not that it relates to god.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> Deuteronomy 11:30 mentions a place _Eloney More_ in a Canaanite land, but not that this name is Phoenician, and not that it relates to god.


However, the Bible says following in Deuteronomy 7:5; 12:2,3; 16:21; Exodus 34:13; Judges 6:25, 26
כי־אם־כה תעשו להם מזבחתיהם תתצו ומצבתם תשברו *ואשירהם* תגדעון ופסיליהם תשרפון באש׃
אבד תאבדון את־כל־המקמות אשר עבדו־שם הגוים אשר אתם ירשים אתם את־אלהיהם על־ההרים הרמים ועל־הגבעות *ותחת כל־עץ רענן* ׃
ונתצתם את־מזבחתם ושברתם את־מצבתם *ואשריהם* תשרפון באש ופסילי אלהיהם תגדעון ואבדתם את־שמם מן־המקום ההוא׃
לא־תטע לך *אשרה כל־עץ* אצל מזבח יי אלהיך אשר תעשה־לך׃ 
ויהי בלילה ההוא ויאמר לו יי קח את־פר־השור אשר לאביך ופר השני שבע שנים והרסת את־מזבח הבעל אשר לאביך ואת־*האשרה* אשר־עליו תכרת׃
ובנית מזבח ליי אלהיך על ראש המעוז הזה במערכה ולקחת את־הפר השני *והעלית עולה בעצי האשרה אשר תכרת*׃

Besides, Mishnah names those trees as *אילן* נעבד
The word אשרי (happy) has relation to אשרות ?

So, maybe _Phoenician_ *אלון* in Deuteronomy 11:30 may mean *אלת* i.e.  *אשרה* ? Thus, *אל*-*אלוהים* ?


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## origumi

אשרה _Ashera_ refers indeed to both the goddess and the tree through which she's worshiped.
אלון _allon_ (oak), אלון _elon_ (also oak?), אל _el_ (god), אלה _ela_ (tree, goddess), אל _el_ (strength), etc. - some (or all?) of them are related indeed to each other.

But: this doesn't resolve the relation of אל _el_ (god) to אלוה _eloah_ (god), the original issue.
And אלון _elon_ as in Deuteronomy 11:30 is still not Phoenician. Even if we assume that it means both oak (or similar tree) and god.

In regard to אשרה _Ashera_ (Athtart) vs. אשרי _ashrei_ (happy) - the sound ש is originally "th" in the former (as evident in Ugaritic), "sh" in the latter (again Ugaritic), so they are not related.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> But: this doesn't resolve the relation of אל _el_ (god) to אלוה _eloah_ (god), the original issue.
> And אלון _elon_ as in Deuteronomy 11:30 is still not Phoenician. Even if we assume that it means both oak (or similar tree) and god.


Don't you think, אלוה was invented to separate Jewish God from Canaanite-deities? Because, אלוה appears only in poetry.


> In regard to אשרה _Ashera_ (Athtart) vs. אשרי _ashrei_ (happy) - the sound ש is originally "th" in the former (as evident in Ugaritic), "sh" in the latter (again Ugaritic), so they are not related.


_Asherah/Astarte_ is written with _Ayn_-letter in plural (Genesis 14:5) עַשְׁתְּרֹת קַרְנַיִם


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> Don't you think, אלוה was invented to separate Jewish God from Canaanite-deities? Because, אלוה appears only in poetry.


But it exists in Ugaritic, Aramaic and Arabic as well (said above). 
I don't know whether all have a common ancestor - likely they have, and the ancestor is 'lh.



> _Asherah/Astarte_ is written with _Ayn_-letter in plural (Genesis 14:5) עַשְׁתְּרֹת קַרְנַיִם


We're discussing the name with alef, not ayin (אשרה, not עשתורת). See for exampe Wiki for אשרה _Ashera_: "In the Ugaritic texts (before 1200 BCE) Athirat is almost always given her full title rbt ʼaṯrt ym, rabat ʼAṯirat yammi, 'Lady Athirat of the Sea' ". (The "sea" part is irrelevant to our discussion, see the name's spelling with ʼA = alef).


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> We're discussing the name with alef, not ayin (אשרה, not עשתורת). See Wiki for אשרה _Ashera_: "In the Ugaritic texts (before 1200 BCE) Athirat is almost always given her full title rbt ʼaṯrt ym, rabat ʼAṯirat yammi, 'Lady Athirat of the Sea'. "


אשרה is עשתורת .
(1 Kings 11:5; 14:23; 2 Kings 23:13,14)
וילך שלמה אחרי *עשתרת אלהי* צדנים ואחרי מלכם שקץ עמנים׃
ויבנו גם־המה להם במות ומצבות *ואשרים* על כל־גבעה גבהה *ותחת כל־עץ רענן*׃
ואת־הבמות אשר ׀ על־פני ירושלם אשר מימין להר־המשחית אשר בנה שלמה מלך־ישראל *לעשתרת* ׀ שקץ צידנים ולכמוש שקץ מואב ולמלכם תועבת בני־עמון טמא המלך׃
ושבר את־המצבות ויכרת את־*האשרים* וימלא את־מקומם עצמות אדם׃


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## origumi

I don't see anything in these text to assert "אשרה is עשתורת". They are usually regarded as two different divinities, mother and daughter. 

-- removed a doubtful sentence.


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## rushalaim

As _Asherah_ as _Astarte_ are always only with _Baal_-god, because _Asherah_ is _Astarte_.
_Asherah/Astarte_ and _Baal_ is the one cult. Their _"trees"_(pillars) of _Asherah_ and _Baal_ were standing close by in a praying place.


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## origumi

rushalaim said:


> _Asherah_ is _Astarte_.



What you wrote here is questionable. See for example Wikipedia:


> In the Baʿal Epic of Ugarit, Athirat, the consort of the god El, plays a role. She is clearly distinguished from Ashtart in the Ugaritic documents, although in non-Ugaritic sources from later periods the distinction between the two goddesses can be blurred; either as a result of scribal error or through possible syncretism.



In such cases it's better to add references, or at least phrase the words in a less assertive way.


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## rushalaim

origumi said:


> What you wrote here is questionable. See for example Wikipedia:
> In such cases it's better to add references, or at least phrase the words in a less assertive way.


There are so many evidences in Judges! The fact is, that the Bible tells us in places about _Asherah/Baal_ worshiping and other places about _Astarte/Baal_ worshiping as united cult.
Maybe AlefBet anyhow connected with _Asherah_(Aleph) and _Baal_(Beit)? They are always together.


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