# Urdu: Saint (in a Christian context)



## HZKhan

In Roman Catholic and Orthodox traditions, the names of the canonized holy people are normally prefixed with the word 'saint', as in St. Peter, St. Patrick, St. Augustine etc. Now, I haven't come across any equivalent of that in Urdu, and most people on internet just use the English word 'saint', but in Arabic and Persian, they use the word 'qiddiis/قدیس' in its place. Is there such a word in Urdu for it? And if not, what word do you think that we should use in Urdu for such purpose? Personally, I find the aforementioned Perso-Arabic word to be suitable and appropriate for Urdu. What is your opinion?

*P.S.* For female Christian saints, the prevalent word in Arabic and Persian is qiddiisa/قدیسہ.


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## Treaty

As for Persian, قدیس and occasionally قدیسه are usually used alone not in combinations like St. Mary. Instead مقدس _moqaddas _is used: کلیسای مریم مقدس


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## HZKhan

But the practice of affixing قدیس with saints' names is also clearly present in Persian. For instance, the Persian translations of the St. Augustine's Confessions are named اعترافات قدیس آگوستین/اعترافات آگوستین قدیس and the Persian Wikipedia seems to favour قدیس over مقدس in its articles. Here's an example:
سابقهٔ تاریخی روز والنتین به جشنی که به افتخار قدیس والنتین در کلیساهای کاتولیک برگزار می‌شد، باز می‌گردد.


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## nizamuddin

متبرک ، معتبر، پارسا، پاکیزہ، مقدس، مطہر


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## Treaty

Pakistani Khan said:


> But the practice of affixing قدیس with saints' names is also clearly present in Persian. For instance, the Persian translations of the St. Augustine's Confessions are named اعترافات قدیس آگوستین/اعترافات آگوستین قدیس and the Persian Wikipedia seems to favour قدیس over مقدس in its articles. Here's an example:
> سابقهٔ تاریخی روز والنتین به جشنی که به افتخار قدیس والنتین در کلیساهای کاتولیک برگزار می‌شد، باز می‌گردد.



And you have this from Persian Wikipedia as well:


> *قدیس* و یا _*سِینت*_ ... لقبی مقدس در کلیسای کاتولیک است که بر مبنای آن لقب «_مقدس_» به نام فرد تقدیس شده، پیشوند می‌گردد.



I don't deny the use of قدیس as a title in Persian. However, looking at the name of churches in Iran, all of the St. X are represented by مقدس, though I guess there is a difference in what various Christian denominations prefer now.


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## Sheikh_14

What about the term سنت? It has always appeared as an Urdisation of the word Saint to me and many online dictionaries define Saint as Sant. I am not sure if historically the two were cognates or its a mere adaptation. In which case it ought to be Sant Patrick and so on and so forth.

There's a comedian who refers to himself as a Saadhuu-sant-faqeer indicating that he transcends religious boundaries.


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## Qureshpor

Sheikh_14 said:


> What about the term سنت? It has always appeared as an Urdisation of the word Saint to me and many online dictionaries define Saint as Sant. I am not sure if historically the two were cognates or its a mere adaptation. In which case it ought to be Sant Patrick and so on and so forth.
> 
> There's a comedian who refers to himself as a Saadhuu-sant-faqeer indicating that he transcends religious boundaries.


H سنت सन्त *sant* [Prk. संतो; S. सन्तस्, base सत्, part. of अस् 'to be'], part., adj. & s.m. Being, existing; essential; good, virtuous, pious; right, proper; excellent; steady, respectable, venerable; — a pious or venerable man, *a saint*; a good or simple man: — *sant-avasthā*

The word "sant" has Sanskrit origins.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

auliyaa3 used after the word?
اولیاء
_
(_like _nizaamuddiin auliyaa3, 3alaauddiin auliyaa3, _and the rest of the characters often mentioned in Sufi songs, or in Dara Shukoh's anthology safinah(t)-al-auliyaa3)


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## Alfaaz

HZKhan said:
			
		

> Now, I haven't come across any equivalent of that in Urdu, and most people on internet just use the English word 'saint', but in Arabic and Persian, they use the word 'qiddiis/قدیس' in its place. Is there such a word in Urdu for it? And if not, what word do you think that we should use in Urdu for such purpose? Personally, I find the aforementioned Perso-Arabic word to be suitable and appropriate for Urdu. What is your opinion?


قدیسین is currently listed in Urdu Lughat with a literary example from 1923.


			
				MonsieurGonzalito said:
			
		

> auliyaa3 used after the word?
> اولیاء


اولیاء _- auliyaa2 _is the plural of ولیّ. The feminine form is ولیّہ.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Alfaaz said:


> اولیاء _- auliyaa2 _is the plural of ولیّ.


Then, why is it often attached to a single person?
Is it some sort of epithet? _"X from among the saints" "X of the saints"_?


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## Alfaaz

MonsieurGonzalito said:
			
		

> Then, why is it often attached to a single person?


If I'm not mistaken, it is also used as singular in Urdu.

Note: I noticed that the thread title mentions _in a Christian context_. Forum members with greater familiarity with such context could hopefully shed light on whether _waliiyy/waliiyyah/auliyaa2_ are used or if other words are used in the context of Christianity.


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## Sheikh_14

Qureshpor said:


> H سنت सन्त *sant* [Prk. संतो; S. सन्तस्, base सत्, part. of अस् 'to be'], part., adj. & s.m. Being, existing; essential; good, virtuous, pious; right, proper; excellent; steady, respectable, venerable; — a pious or venerable man, *a saint*; a good or simple man: — *sant-avasthā*
> 
> The word "sant" has Sanskrit origins.


Thank you QP saaHib I did read later that the two are false cognates and perhaps used within Sikhism as a synonym for Guru I.e. a pious man of the Lord  which explains why a Punjabi comedian who seeks to entertain Sikhs, Hindus and Muslims would use the terms together.

Saadhuu for the Hindu community.
Sant for the Sikh &
Faqeer for the Muslim community.

Btw as an aside are Saints by default also meant to be learned scholars or just righteous men of God? In other words is wisdom implied? I would assume so, since people flock to them to get to the bottom of the truth.

Sant (religion) - Wikipedia

Also since its been settled that the term for a Christian Saint, origins unbeknownst to me (perhaps from Quds I.e. Jerusalem)is Qiddiis and the plural Qiddiiseen. Would we use it as a prefix or suffix?

Would it be Qiddiis Patrick for example?


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## desi4life

Sheikh_14 said:


> Saadhuu for the Hindu community.
> Sant for the Sikh &
> Faqeer for the Muslim community.



That’s incorrect. “Sant” is used in all Indic religions: Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism.


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## Qureshpor

"sant" is not unknown from an Urdu perspective. It's usage in Urdu LuGhat is traced to 1778 and one of the latest examples from the writings of Sayyid Sulaimaan Nadvi is the following sentence.

"baRii ta3daad meN hindu log muslim suufiyoN, faqiiroN se 3aqiidat rakhte the aur musalmaan hindu devtaa'oN aur santoN kaa iHtiraam karte the."


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## Happu

Sheikh_14 said:


> Saadhuu for the Hindu community.
> Sant for the Sikh &
> Faqeer for the Muslim community.



As for Islam, wouldn't _piir_ be the more adequate term? 

_faqiir, _to me, seems pretty 'low-ranking', rather a religious mendicant or ascetic living by begging. In Hindi, a _faqiir aadmii_ is a penniless person, a pauper.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Happu said:


> _faqiir, _to me, seems pretty 'low-ranking', rather a religious mendicant or ascetic living by begging. In Hindi, a _faqiir aadmii_ is a penniless person, a pauper.


I don't claim much expertise on the subject, but I believe it is a little more complicated than that.

Even though it is true than faqiir comes from Arabic "poor", and that "fakir" come to be used in British India mostly as a religious mendicant, in the Sufi and Indic syncretic tradition _piir _and _faqiir _were ways to approach the mystical experience ("contemplation of the beloved Master/Spiritual guide" versus "complete and direct reliance on God as opposed to wordly things"). 

At least in theory, faqiirs didn't need to be destitute, it implied more of a mystic attitude, rather than actual poverty. 
And for the same reason, I believe that neither piir nor faqiir necessarily mean "saint", regardless of religion.


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## Happu

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> I don't claim much expertise on the subject, but I believe it is a little more complicated than that.
> 
> Even though it is true than faqiir comes from Arabic "poor", and that "fakir" come to be used in British India mostly as a religious mendicant, in the Sufi and Indic syncretic tradition _piir _and _faqiir _were ways to approach the mystical experience ("contemplation of the beloved Master/Spiritual guide" versus "complete and direct reliance on God as opposed to wordly things").
> 
> At least in theory, faqiirs didn't need to be destitute, it implied more of a mystic attitude, rather than actual poverty.
> And for the same reason, I believe that neither piir nor faqiir necessarily mean "saint", regardless of religion.


A _piir _is certainly a saint, I've been to many _dargahs_ where they are buried, and visitors worship them as saints, asking for miracles, boons etc. Some stay around a dargah for weeks to be cured of a disease. Also see entry 'Peer' in the wonderful old dictionary Hobson-Jobson - 'a Mohamedan saint, a Beatus ...'.

A _faqiir, _at least in today's world, is often - not always - akin to certain groups of sadhus displaying cheap tricks or feats to impress the believers. I've seen a _faqiir_ poke his eyes around with a metal rod, or a sadhu lift a heavy stone with his penis. But then we could argue in how far these people are 'real' faqiirs or sadhus.


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## littlepond

A _faqiir_ is a well-respected person (except in the eyes of a money-loving materialist): it is not for courting low respect that the current prime minister of India implies that he is a _faqiir_! _Faqiir_s are usually destitute (as are _saadhu_s), but that is always considered a virtue in India. Of course, the figurative expressions _baRaa faqiir/saadhuu aadmii hai_ can be used for people who are not poor, but those are not literal words ("faqiir aadmii" can be positive or negative; "saadhuu aadmii" is usually positive only).

The concept of a Christian saint doesn't exist in India, so I don't think any translation would really signify what is meant.


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