# Dein (Name)



## C.C.Moundshroud

if someone were to sign a letter / email

Viele Gruesse,

Dein [Name] 

is there anything to be interpreted by the use of Dein? 
I understand that this will likely be an opinion-based response, but any thoughts are appreciated. 
The sender is a native German speaker. 

Thank you.


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## elroy

It signals closeness and affection.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> It signals closeness and affection.


 Exactly!

I only use "Dein" with my parents and girlfriend. No one else.


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## C.C.Moundshroud

Thank you for the responses and apologies for the year-long delay. 
It is not a typical sign off from a man to a woman, unless they are friends, correct?


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## bearded

Kajjo said:


> I only use "Dein" with my parents and girlfriend. No one else


Not even with a buddy (Busenfreund)?


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## JClaudeK

bearded said:


> Not even with a buddy (Busenfreund)?


Doch. Das kann man  auch einem/er guten Freund(in) schreiben.


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## Sowka

JClaudeK said:


> Doch. Das kann man  auch einem/er guten Freund(in) schreiben.


Für mich gilt das auch. Die Menschen empfinden das aber wohl unterschiedlich.


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## Kajjo

bearded said:


> Not even with a buddy


I won't use it with a male, never ever. I usually restrict it to girlfriend and parents and might use it with women I feel close to, but I am careful so that it cannot be misunderstood as romantic interest. No interest, no "Dein". Simply as that.


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## Hutschi

Hi,

I use it also for almost all relatives, as my sister, my brother, my uncle, my aunt, my niece, my nephew etc.  I used it additionally for my grandma and grandpa (they unfortunately died, so this is obsolete now.). 
I am wondering why it should be restricted to "_girlfriend and parents and might use it with women I feel close to_."

I remember, as child I also used it when addressing close friends.

May be it is more restricted now considering Kajjo's restrictions. Is it a North-South-question as with "Bernd" vs. "der Bernd"?

I would not misunderstood in any way as romantic interest, when I receive a letter from my nephew, or my aunt, and if they used "Dein" or "Deine".

I would be more confused if they write it lowercase.

Mostly I write "Ihr" (formal style) when addressing people and we did not agree to "Du".

If we have a close  "du"-relation I write "dein Bernd"
If it is just a forum, I avoid "dein" but use  "von".

---

Another question is symmetry. If somebody writes "Dein" (and we are in a "Du"-status) I'd use it, too.

Viele Grüße von Bernd


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## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> I use it also for almost all relatives, as my sister, my brother, my uncle, my aunt, my niece, my nephew


Agreed. If you have more close relatives, you might extend the usage. I don't have such relatives.



Hutschi said:


> I would not misunderstood in any way as romantic interest, when I receive a letter from my nephew, or my aunt, and if they used "Dein" or "Deine".


Nor would I, if the relationships were close.



Hutschi said:


> If somebody writes "Dein" (and we are in a "Du"-status) I'd use it, too.


I certainly would not do so automatically, since with non-relatives this indicates romantic interest. I would consider my intentions before replying with such an intimate phrase.


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## JClaudeK

Kajjo said:


> since with non-relatives this indicates romantic interest.



Eine sehr persönliche Auslegung!


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## Kajjo

JClaudeK said:


> Eine sehr persönliche Auslegung!


Ach ja? Denke ich nicht ... ganz im Gegenteil!


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## Hutschi

I see. I would propose a compromize:


> I certainly would not do so _*automatically*_, (Kajjo)



I think, we can agree to do so considering context. (Context might be very different cases. For example: if the other assumes to start a romantic relation - I may indicate that I do not want this by omitting "Dein ...".)

Otherwise if it is a true friendship, "Dein ..." is possible outside romantic relations.


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## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> true friendship, "Dein ..." is possible outside romantic relations


Hm, maybe, but between non-related males? Very rarely, that feels weird.


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## berndf

I think the whole expression is obsolescing. Someone who would use "Ihr <Name>" in formal letters wouldn't find it strange to use "Dein <Name>" in informal ones.


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## sma099

I agree with Kajjo (mostly). "Dein (Name)" is fine among relatives. But I think there is a difference between female-female friendships and male-female or male-male friendships. I wouldn't find it weird for two girlfriends to end a letter or e-mail that way and I've seen my girlfriend or mom say that to a girlfriend, even on WhatsApp. For male-male friendships, to me it just adds a lot of emotion (Pathos), which is almost always uncalled for and weird. I did say "Dein Freund (Name)" to my best friend (both males) last year though when I thanked him for the great last few years we've had. So maybe for birthday wishes and stuff.


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## Hutschi

C.C.Moundshroud said:


> if someone were to sign a letter / email
> 
> Viele Gruesse,
> 
> Dein [Name]
> 
> is there anything to be interpreted by the use of Dein?
> I understand that this will likely be an opinion-based response, but any thoughts are appreciated.
> The sender is a native German speaker.
> 
> Thank you.



Hi,
there is another question we did not discuss here.

This is "viele Grüße".

An alternate form is "Liebe Grüße".

This is rather neutral in usage if you do not connect it with "Dein _vorname"._
With_ "dein Vorname" _together it makes ist passionate.
You can use it in a friendship to express special mode of closeness and affection (Trost spenden, Mitgefühl zeigen)
but often it shows relation between friend and girl friend.

"Liebe Grüße" alone does not indicate any erotic relation, it is just a friendly and informal.

Liebe Grüße
Dein Bernd Hutschenreuther

Liebe Grüße
von Herrn Hutschenreuther

This does not indicate erotic friendship at all.

Today I received a message from a person I do not know. (He or she wanted to attend a poetry forum).

The closing formula was:

"Liebe Grüße
_Vorname"_

In such cases you cannot use "Dein/Deine" but "liebe Grüße" is possible.

Here "Dein" makes a difference.

"Viele Grüße
Dein _Vorname" _is much more neutral than
_"_Liebe Grüße
Dein _Vorname"

"Liebe Grüße_
Dein _Vorname + Name_" does usually not express a love relation or erotic interest.


Forms as "Herzliche" or "Freundliche" Grüße also block passionate meanings of "Dein".


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## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> "Liebe Grüße". [...] with_ "dein Vorname" _together it makes ist passionate.


I agree, this combination indicates clearly romantic or erotic interest or very close family.



Hutschi said:


> "Viele Grüße
> Dein _Vorname" _is much more neutral than
> _"_Liebe Grüße
> Dein _Vorname"_


Right.



Hutschi said:


> _"Liebe Grüße_
> Dein _Vorname_" does usually not express a love relation or erotic interest.


Right -- however, while using "Liebe Grüße" might be somewhat inflationary in the recent years, I personally still restrict it to pretty close friends. I don't like to degrade this nice phrase by using it superficially for all kinds of acquaintances. Other people, however, might do so sometimes.


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## elroy

Hutschi said:


> Dein _Vorname + Name_


 Is this really used?  I've only ever seen "Dein" with the first name only.  "Dein" followed by someone's full name seems very strange to me!


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> Is this really used?


No, I have never seen the surname being used in such a greeting.


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## C.C.Moundshroud

Throwing more specifics in to the mix. The relationship was (formerly) professor (male) and student (female) and the two became... friends...
Sign off is:

Viele Grüße,
Dein Klaus


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## elroy

sma099 said:


> For male-male friendships, to me it just adds a lot of emotion (Pathos), which is almost always uncalled for and weird.


 God forbid males should express emotions to each other!


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## sma099

elroy said:


> God forbid males should express emotions to each other!


It doesn't matter if you like it or not, that's the cultural context, not at all different from the US I may add.


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## elroy

sma099 said:


> not at all different from the US I may add


 Yes, unfortunately, this is a worldwide epidemic. 





sma099 said:


> It doesn't matter if you like it or not


 Last I checked, I was free to share my personal opinion, just as you are free to share yours.  Whether my opinion "matters" or not is not for you to decide. 





sma099 said:


> that's the cultural context


 In your original post, you didn't objectively or neutrally talk about general cultural attitudes.  You said "*to me* it just adds a lot of emotion (Pathos), which is almost always uncalled for and weird".  Of course, like all of us, you are at least to a certain extent a product of the culture in which you were raised.


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## Hutschi

Let us go to this Forum, as example:

We usually use "du" in the German Forum. There are some exceptions, but this does not matter here.

Because of plural, I could use "Euer" - but I do not (usually).
Even in case of "du" it is a rather formal relationship.

I think "Du/Dein" includes (indeed) emotions.
I would use it when addressing relatives and near friends.

In the setting Professor - Student - in German there are two kinds of friends:

1. Freund/Freundin (in the sense friendship) - if it is a deep friendship (best friend or one of the best friends) "Dein/Deine" is possible. But I do not know how common it is. I don't use it anymore, I write "Viele Grüße von Bernd".  In some very emotional situations I might use it - for example in case of mourning (Trauer). 
When I was a child, I used it frequently.

2. Freund/Freundin (in a relationship of love) - I think "Dein/Deine" is quite common. At least it was common in my environment and in my generation.
I write "Viele Grüße, Dein Bernd". or "Viele Grüße von Deinem Bernd"


It may change in time. The whole system changed more than once during the last centuries.

---
Freund (love relation) is very private, and so different forms may be possible, it is seldom that you read letters from others in this case.

---
PS: I do not know anything about new communications (usage of emoticons/abbreviations etc. in electronic media.)

By the way: I use "Viele Grüße vom Bernd" when I want to express emotions in sense of warmth and to make it more informal. 

---

To use the proper phrase is rather important. In case of a love relation it becomes informal and private. Switching the mode is a highly emotional event. Going back to formal mode may be indicatet as end of friendship or as a big crisis.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Whether my opinion "matters" or not is not for you to decide.


Well, he voiced an opinion on whether it matters or not and I am inclined to agree with with him. The cultural barrier against men expressing certain types of emotions in communication among themselves is still holding; regardless of whether one likes it or not.


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## elroy

That's like saying "Racism/sexism/injustice/violence exists whether one likes it or not, so there's no point saying that you are against it."

Just as it is completely pertinent for sma099 to say that he feels this usage is "almost always uncalled for and weird," it is perfectly pertinent for me to express that I find this tragic. 


berndf said:


> is still holding


 Yes, sadly.  Change begins to happen when people start to question the status quo.  One of the ways this begins to happen is when people express their dismay with the status quo, as I've done here.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> Change begins to happen when people start to question the status quo.


I am not sure "changing the status quo" is the topic here. I would say the topic is its accurate description.


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## elroy

My feelings about the status quo are on-topic.


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## Hutschi

Es gibt noch einen weiteren Fall: Anrede unter Kindern

Ich habe eine Quelle gefunden, Deutsch, 4. Schuljahr
Einen persönlichen Brief schreiben – kapiert.de

Dort wird empfohlen:
"Briefschluss
mit Grußformel (Liebe Grüße/ Bis bald/ Dein /Deine ) und Unterschrift (Paul/ Lea/ Enkel Leo)"

Da es sich an Kinder wendet, gehe ich aber davon aus, dass das unter Kindern die übliche Anrede ist.


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## sma099

elroy said:


> Last I checked, I was free to share my personal opinion, just as you are free to share yours.  Whether my opinion "matters" or not is not for you to decide.



Sure. It's not me though who's decided this, but German culture. The value of your opinion (like/dislike) doesn't matter one bit for the values German culture has agreed on, so you can share all you want, but it's like sharing how upset one is that the accusative exists, there is no point to it, especially not on a language forum. And since we're all sharing our opinions and feelings now: your red herring in regards to racism and violence is beyond ridiculous. We're talking about how adult men would address each other in a letter, please...



elroy said:


> In your original post, you didn't objectively or neutrally talk about general cultural attitudes.  You said "*to me* it just adds a lot of emotion (Pathos), which is almost always uncalled for and weird".  Of course, like all of us, you are at least to a certain extent a product of the culture in which you were raised.



Yeah I did not, that's true, and it's because when I make a more general, "objective" statement, inevitable someone comes along with some obscure fringe case that's different, but really changes nothing.


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## elroy

sma099 said:


> it's like sharing how upset one is that the accusative exists


 That is not the same thing at all.  The accusative doesn't exist because males are heavily discouraged from authentically expressing their emotions.


sma099 said:


> your red herring in regards to racism and violence


 It's not a red herring at all.  In my view, prohibitions against male emotional authenticity are like racism and violence in that they are damaging, they are the result of social factors, and -- thankfully -- they are not givens and they are not unchangeable.  Just because these things currently exist doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't say that I don't like this state of affairs.


sma099 said:


> some obscure fringe case


 I have a very articulate, highly educated heterosexual male German friend who generally doesn't use "Dein" when he signs off his e-mails to me (also male), and vice versa.  In one particular e-mail, I shared some personal difficulties and he e-mailed back expressing his support.  For the first time (and the only time since, I think), he used "Dein" in his sign-off.  This, to me, was a very appropriate, and much appreciated, expression of support: it was not "uncalled for" or "weird."

This person would never misuse the accusative, but he did use "Dein" in a situation in which it was appropriate.  I hope you'll agree that this is not an "obscure fringe case."  Thankfully, the cultural beliefs and attitudes that discourage this use are not so pervasive as to mean that it absolutely can't be done, nor that things can't change gradually.  I hope they do.


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## Hutschi

elroy said:


> ...
> This person would never misuse the accusative, but he did use "Dein" in a situation in which it was appropriate.  I hope you'll agree that this is not an "obscure fringe case."  ...


Exactly. This switch in mode is rather common in such situations, and I used it myself, too.


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