# Some Prophets And Their Professions



## ayed

Hi, WRPs .
I'd like you to post here more prophets' professions .Just mention the prophet's name followed by his career .Right now, I'll start :

1-Adam : farmer
2-Noah : carpenter 

Who is ready to complete? 



Waiting your responses 
Thanks


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## Marc1

ayed said:
			
		

> Hi, WRPs .
> I'd like you to post here more prophets' professions .Just mention the prophet's name followed by his career .Right now, I'll start :
> 
> 1-Adam : farmer
> 2-Noah : carpenter
> 
> Who is ready to complete?
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting your responses
> Thanks



Hum... Adam and Noah prophets?
Adam was .... well he just "was", no prophesising there.
Noah was a leader and a chosen one, but even when he anounced the flood, he was not a profet. The first profet is supposed to be Moses.
Moses : Sheppard


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## cuchuflete

ayed said:
			
		

> Hi, WRPs .
> I'd like you to post here more prophets' professions .Just mention the prophet's name followed by his career .Right now, I'll start :
> 
> 1-Adam : farmer
> 2-Noah : carpenter
> 
> Who is ready to complete?
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting your responses
> Thanks



Al-Yasa  farmer

By the way Ayed and Marc, what is the "P" in WRP's?  Is it the one SilviaP lost recently?

thanks,
Cuchu


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## belén

Word Reference Posters, Word Reference People, Word Reference Prophets!! Word Reference Patos???


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## libertad y justicia

Prefieres pedir pingüinos o perdices? Patos, o patois?


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## ayed

belen said:
			
		

> Word Reference Posters, Word Reference People, Word Reference Prophets!! Word Reference Patos???


Exactly so 
WordReference Pals


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## cuchuflete

As long as it's not pelícanos, pavos y puercoespinos I can die happy.


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## Everness

ayed said:
			
		

> Hi, WRPs .
> I'd like you to post here more prophets' professions .Just mention the prophet's name followed by his career .Right now, I'll start :
> 
> 1-Adam : farmer
> 2-Noah : carpenter
> 
> Who is ready to complete?
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting your responses
> Thanks



Jesus = carpenter


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## lainyn

Elisha - farmer, I do believe.


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## te gato

This isn't good..you are making me use my brain..that hurts.. 

Abraham--farmer
Isaiah--
Jeremiah--
Ezekiel--
Daniel--was a young man in school..and is known for being thrown in the lions den and living..
Hosea--
Joel--
Amos--shepherd
Obadiah--
Jonah--swallowed by a whale..for three days..
Micah--
Nahum--
Habakkuk--
Zephaniah--
Haggai--
Zechariah--
Malachi--

Sorry...for most of them I'm not sure what they did...but most were shepherds...

te gato


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## Marc1

Everness said:
			
		

> Jesus = carpenter


Now there is a bit of a blunder

Jesus is definetly NOT a prophet!!!


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## lainyn

Au contraire! Jesus is most definitely a prophet if you're muslim!


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## cuchuflete

lainyn said:
			
		

> Au contraire! Jesus is most definitely a prophet if you're muslim!



I was just about to ask what the cultural significance of this thread might be, and now I have the answer: Differences in perspective among different belief systems.

Thanks,
Cuchu

PS- Does anyone know of a prophet who was/is a lawyer or a government official?


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## gotitadeleche

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> I was just about to ask what the cultural significance of this thread might be, and now I have the answer: Differences in perspective among different belief systems.
> 
> Thanks,
> Cuchu
> 
> PS- Does anyone know of a prophet who was/is a lawyer or a government official?




Nehemiah was a scribe who had a civil office as cup-bearer to the king. 

I don't remember Daniel's official position, but he ran the kingdom while King Neb was out eating grass in the wilderness.


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## Benjy

Marc1 said:
			
		

> Now there is a bit of a blunder
> 
> Jesus is definetly NOT a prophet!!!



marc.. so far i have noticed that you think that neither noah or jesus were prophets. just curious to know why


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## te gato

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Thanks,
> Cuchu
> 
> PS- Does anyone know of a prophet who was/is a lawyer or a government official?


 
Hi cuchu;

It was said that Daniel was either of Royal or Noble blood and I think... if I remember correctly.... so was Zephaniah..(say that fast ten times) 
Does that count?... 

te gato


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## cuchuflete

te gato said:
			
		

> Hi cuchu;
> 
> It was said that Daniel was either of Royal or Noble blood and I think... if I remember correctly.... so was Zephaniah..(say that fast ten times)
> * Does that count?...
> *
> te gato



Well, it's a matter of perspective I suppose. Some government officials work, at least some of the time. Is there a strong correlation between Royal blood and work?

zephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniah zephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniah

Ouch!


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## te gato

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Well, it's a matter of perspective I suppose. Some government officials work, at least some of the time. Is there a strong correlation between Royal blood and work?
> 
> zephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniah zephaniahzephaniahzephaniahzephaniah
> 
> Ouch!


 
Hahahaha;
Let me think...ahhhhh...no...

I meant for the lawyer part....
"Your royalness, shall we put this man to death?"
(depending if they have had a good day or not) 
"Okey Dokey." ... (bad day)
"Mmmmm, you decide." ... (good day)

te gato


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## Marc1

Benjy said:
			
		

> marc.. so far i have noticed that you think that neither Noah or Jesus were prophets. just curious to know why



What is a prophet?
The time of the prophets is understood to start with Moses, but we cannot forget others who came before him Amos, Nathan, Elias Miqueas, Eliseo. Their function was to announce the judgement and the will of God primarily to the kings. Other prophets were Abraham, Aaron, Mary and Deborah....
The function of the prophet was to proclaim the word of God they had received. Call the nations to repent and conversion to God and His covenant. Their message relates to events and circumstances from their present in the political social and religious.

When a person is called to prophesying, in the bible such call is clear and unambiguous, and his message is repeated throughout the bible and the history of prophets can be linked and cross referenced. Noah has no mention anywhere as a prophet. His function was a different much more practical one. He was chosen with his family as a fit person to re populate the earth after the rest of human kind was eliminated. 

Jesus cannot be a prophet because a prophet is a messenger from God, not God himself.
The church of Christ is based on this truth:

From the New King James Bible:


> Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ
> (C) 13When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
> 14So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
> 
> 15He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
> 
> 16Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
> 
> 17Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven."



The above is a very interesting statement from Jesus himself, yet different churches at different stages in history have changed the above for their purposes. Only 30 years ago the Jehovah Witness church would preach that Jesus was not the son of God but just another prophet, taking away his divinity and turning most of his teaching into a lie. Today their members do not know of this since they have changed their teachings for the nth time.

The Catholic church has made of the above paragraph an interesting little story on their own.
Note that Jesus says: 18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church,...etc

The purpose of Jesus speech, is to acknowledge the prophetic words of Simon Peter recognising him as the Son of God, in verse 16, _16Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." _ Also Jesus states that the words in verse 16 are the rock on which the Church of Christ is founded, "the rock" is the fact that Jesus is the Son of God, the very foundation of Christianity. 

Yet the Vatican has throughout history perpetuated the idea that Jesus crowns Simon Peter with some sort of special membership and declares Simon peter to be the rock upon which Jesus founds his church. What an extraordinarily weak foundation has Jesus chosen to found his church. A weak man who will betray him at the first sign of danger.

Why is Jesus not a prophet? because He *is*  the message and so He cannot be the messenger. In fact to call Jesus a prophet is common practice for non Christian to belittle the core belief of Christianity. 

Marc


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## Marc1

If you are interested in the Petros versus Petra debate, you can read all in the following link 
http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/peterRock.htm




> In our discussion of these matters, we called attention to Matthew 16:18-19, a text commonly employed by Roman Catholic scholars to buttress the dogma of Peter’s primacy. It is well-known that Catholicism alleges that Peter was the “rock” upon which the church was founded. The argument has been constructed upon the fact that both “Peter” (petros) and “rock” (petra) are from the same Greek stem. What this supposedly indicates, therefore, is that the church was built upon Peter, hence the origin of papal authority.
> 
> In our article we listed four contextual considerations that negate this interpretation.
> 
> 
> Petros and petra reflect different genders – the former is masculine, the latter is feminine; thus a distinction is drawn.
> 
> Petros generally is a smaller stone, a fragment; petra is a more massive, bedrock-like substructure.
> 
> Christ distinguished between petros and petra by the use of pronouns of different person. Petros has a second person pronoun as a companion, while petra is used with a third person pronoun.
> 
> In the symbolism employed by Jesus, Peter is designated as the one who opens the doors to the kingdom (which he did for Jew and Gentile – Acts 2; 10). It is not customary for an object to occupy two roles, e.g., the foundation and door-opener, at the same time in the same metaphorical illustration.



A critic response follows, and the author's response as well.  Enjoy!


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## ayed

Marc 1 , thank you for your comments and responses on this topic.
My request is :
Just mention a prophet followed by his career.
Thank you all for enriching this topic of helpful responses.I beg your pardon for being ignorant of biblical names of prophets.Anyway, I am keeping up this topic.


3-Idris(Enoch):Tailor 


4-Ibraheem(Ibraham): mercer 


5-Ismaeel(Ishamel) : huntsman


6-Ishaque(Isaac) ,Ya'qub(Jacob) , Shu'aib and Musa(Moses) : shepherd



Who is next?  


Thank you


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## Benjy

ahh let the quoting games begin 

acts 3:22-26

"[22] For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
[24] Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
[25] Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
[26] Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."

so peter quotes the prophesy of moses (found in deut 18:15) and says that it was making reference to this jesus that god would raise up.

furthermore rev 19:10 states that "..the testimony of jesus is the spirit of prophesy.."

what is a prophey if it is not osmeone who has the spirit of prophesy. im sure jesus had a testimony of his own divinity don't you? i don't see why if he was a prophet he could not also be the son of god. the two are not mutually exclusive.

also noah: how could he have known what was going to happen without revelation? what is a prophet if it is not someone who receives divine revelation? how do you know he didnt warn the people? do you think god would have just flooded the earth without giving the people a chance to know he was going to detroy it? just because its not in there doesn't mean it didnt happen (the last verse of the gospel of john is what i'm implying..."And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.").




			
				Marc1 said:
			
		

> What is a prophet?
> The time of the prophets is understood to start with Moses, but we cannot forget others who came before him Amos, Nathan, Elias Miqueas, Eliseo. Their function was to announce the judgement and the will of God primarily to the kings. Other prophets were Abraham, Aaron, Mary and Deborah....
> The function of the prophet was to proclaim the word of God they had received. Call the nations to repent and conversion to God and His covenant. Their message relates to events and circumstances from their present in the political social and religious.
> 
> When a person is called to prophesying, in the bible such call is clear and unambiguous, and his message is repeated throughout the bible and the history of prophets can be linked and cross referenced. Noah has no mention anywhere as a prophet. His function was a different much more practical one. He was chosen with his family as a fit person to re populate the earth after the rest of human kind was eliminated.
> 
> Jesus cannot be a prophet because a prophet is a messenger from God, not God himself.
> The church of Christ is based on this truth:
> 
> From the New King James Bible:
> 
> 
> The above is a very interesting statement from Jesus himself, yet different churches at different stages in history have changed the above for their purposes. Only 30 years ago the Jehovah Witness church would preach that Jesus was not the son of God but just another prophet, taking away his divinity and turning most of his teaching into a lie. Today their members do not know of this since they have changed their teachings for the nth time.
> 
> The Catholic church has made of the above paragraph an interesting little story on their own.
> Note that Jesus says: 18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church,...etc
> 
> The purpose of Jesus speech, is to acknowledge the prophetic words of Simon Peter recognising him as the Son of God, in verse 16, _16Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." _ Also Jesus states that the words in verse 16 are the rock on which the Church of Christ is founded, "the rock" is the fact that Jesus is the Son of God, the very foundation of Christianity.
> 
> Yet the Vatican has throughout history perpetuated the idea that Jesus crowns Simon Peter with some sort of special membership and declares Simon peter to be the rock upon which Jesus founds his church. What an extraordinarily weak foundation has Jesus chosen to found his church. A weak man who will betray him at the first sign of danger.
> 
> Why is Jesus not a prophet? because He *is*  the message and so He cannot be the messenger. In fact to call Jesus a prophet is common practice for non Christian to belittle the core belief of Christianity.
> 
> Marc


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## ayed

Benjy!!!
What happened to my topic.Is it flooded by overwhelming ocean or what? 

Who is next to complete prophets' names and their professions?
Waiting


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## Benjy

ayed said:
			
		

> Benjy!!!
> What happened to my topic.Is it flooded by overwhelming ocean or what?
> 
> Who is next to complete prophets' names and their professions?
> Waiting



sorry =[

but in order to have a list of prophets and their professions don't we need to define what is a prophet? 

and are we talking about what they did for a living or the things that they professed? 

*desperately trying to appear knowledgeable, having realised that i know nothing about whats prhets did to earn their living *


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## Marc1

Benjy said:
			
		

> ahh let the quoting games begin
> 
> ..."And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.").



Benjy, your biblical knowledge is refreshing, however your definition of prophet is what counts in this case. Anyone can prophesyse, you and me included. When we announce the kingdom of God we are doing just that. We may even become prophets if God calls us to such task, conceded the time of prophets is supposed to have ceased with the arrival of Jesus, but the new events that will lead us into rapture if one believes that event or tribulation etc, may call for more prophets. 

Noah most certainly did warn his fellow man of the flood but as the story goes no one believed him. Was he a prophet? no, that does not make him a prophet, yet you can say he prophesysed on that particular historic point.
Yet if you read in the flood account you will note that God had made His mind up about he destruction of all human but Noah and family, so He would hardly send a prophet out to change their mind. 

On Jesus account He certainly announced Gods kingdom but to call him a prophet is to call Him a lesser person since He is Himself The Word. Non Christian are well aware of this distinction and make a point of calling Jesus a prophet to appear polite and using a half truth, achieve the big lie that Jesus is not the son of God.
.....................................................................................................

Isaiah = teacher


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## Everness

So Jesus wasn't a prophet? I hope there are no biblical quizzes to get into heaven my friend. Why don't you read Peter's speech on Solomon's porch (Act 3. 11-26)? Moses prophesied that God would raise up a prophet like himself, whom the people would be responsible to hear and obey. If they didn't they would forfeit their right to be part of the people of God. Will Peter's hearers heed Jesus, the prophet like Moses, as he speaks his message through his apostles? That's the only question that remains unanswered, not the one about Jesus being or not a prophet.


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## ayed

Benjy said:
			
		

> *desperately trying to appear knowledgeable, having realised that i know nothing about whats prhets did to earn their living *


Well, take it easy Benjy .Frankly, you did a great job and I am waiting for more prophet's names and theirs.

Thank you all
Who is next?


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## Edwin

Benjy said:
			
		

> but in order to have a list of prophets and their professions don't we need to define what is a prophet?



Good question, Benjy. It seems that the definition of prophet depends on where one is coming from.  There is a nice discussion of this matter at 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet

The discussion is divided into the following 8 sections:




> 1 Pagan Greek and Roman oracles
> 2 The Hebrew and Jewish concepts of prophet
> 3 Christian concepts of a prophet
> 4 The Islamic concept of prophet
> 5 The Bahá'í concept of prophet
> 6 The Direct Worship concept of prophet
> 7 Other prophets
> 8 See also



I guess what is needed is a thread for each of these different concepts of prophet.  But even within a single tradition such as Christianity the concept of prophet varies. For example, the Unification Church regards its founder, Sun Myung Moon as a living prophet.  Hmm, what does he do for a living besides preach and marry large groups of people?


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## Marc1

Thank you Cuchu, I copied a paragraph:

Some Christians, i.e. those who believe in the dispensationalism, believe prophecy ended with the coming of Jesus, who delivered the "fullness of the law". Within this group, many Protestants believe that prophecy ended with the last of the prophets in the Hebrew portion of the Bible that Christians call the "Old Testament" included in their canon, leaving a gap of about 400 years between then and the coming of Jesus Christ. The majority allow an exception for John the Baptist as a prophet contemporary with Jesus.


Interesting how after this paragraph it goes to say "Most Christians and Protestant denominations reject dispensationalism...he he, I wonder what the definition of "most" is for this author!!  (most of the member of his family)


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## Marc1

Everness said:
			
		

> So Jesus wasn't a prophet? I hope there are no biblical quizzes to get into heaven my friend. Why don't you read Peter's speech on Solomon's porch (Act 3. 11-26)? Moses prophesied that God would raise up a prophet like himself, whom the people would be responsible to hear and obey. If they didn't they would forfeit their right to be part of the people of God. Will Peter's hearers heed Jesus, the prophet like Moses, as he speaks his message through his apostles? That's the only question that remains unanswered, not the one about Jesus being or not a prophet.



God is certainly entitled to call Jesus His Prophet, but we are not. If we call Jesus a prophet we are not honoring Him for what He is, our Lord and the Son of God.

I will prove you this in an odd way. Please go to Google and type in Jesus Prophet and see how many hundred Islamic sites do you hit. Jesus the propeht is a classic way to minimise the figure of our Lord.


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## pinkpanter

Marc1 said:
			
		

> God is certainly entitled to call Jesus His Prophet, but we are not. If we call Jesus a prophet we are not honoring Him for what He is, our Lord and the Son of God.
> 
> I will prove you this in an odd way. Please go to Google and type in Jesus Prophet and see how many hundred Islamic sites do you hit. Jesus the propeht is a classic way to minimise the figure of our Lord.



I guess Jewish people also regard Jesus as a prophet. This is a difficult question to answer, if Jesus is a prophet or not because it is quite a matter of belief. For example, for non-believers, myself included, Jesus cannot be other thing than a prophet other than a very religious person who probably was very good and helped others but I think one cannot be categorical on this. I think there are many different views and we cannot say for sure it was not God because we don't know but we cannot assure Jesus was not a prophet either. Just my view, not offence intended.


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## Everness

Marc1 said:
			
		

> God is certainly entitled to call Jesus His Prophet, but we are not. If we call Jesus a prophet we are not honoring Him for what He is, our Lord and the Son of God.
> 
> I will prove you this in an odd way. Please go to Google and type in Jesus Prophet and see how many hundred Islamic sites do you hit. Jesus the propeht is a classic way to minimise the figure of our Lord.



1. I don't care about Google or about what Muslims or other non-Christian religions think about Jesus. I respect their position and expect they respect mine. Jesus is the Christ. I'm sick and tired of the wishy-washy theological postures. We should learn a bit more from Muslims in that respect. They take clear stands and avoid watering down their beliefs to make them more palatable to and agreeable with Western democracy. All religions are dogmatic. If you don't like it, don't be religious. 

2. We might not like or disagree with the Bible's escathology, but it's Moses, a prophet himself, who points to the coming of a prophet like *himself*. 

_For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.’ _ 

3. I think that you are missing an extremely important point. Jesus is more than one thing. If you read the Bible carefully, you'll realize that he is given different names and holds different offices: God, Lord, Word, Messiah, Alpha and Omega, Savior, Lamb of God, prophet, Son of Man, Son of God, etc. etc. In order to understand the richness of who Jesus is, we need to do it in the light of all his names and offices.


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## Marc1

pinkpanter said:
			
		

> I guess Jewish people also regard Jesus as a prophet. This is a difficult question to answer, if Jesus is a prophet or not because it is quite a matter of belief. For example, for non-believers, myself included, Jesus cannot be other thing than a prophet other than a very religious person who probably was very good and helped others but I think one cannot be categorical on this. I think there are many different views and we cannot say for sure it was not God because we don't know but we cannot assure Jesus was not a prophet either. Just my view, not offence intended.



Good point. Considering that we are discussion cultural issues, and an in deep theological analysis would be misplaced, my point is a simple one.

No Christian would call Jesus a prophet even when He technicaly was one. A Christian does not call his Lord "my prophet" but my Lord, even when it is true that He was different things a prophet and a carpenter.

Jews and muslims restrict Jesus title to "a" prophet, just one more prophet, and they will tell you in order that the testimony to his resurrection was made by paid false witness, and that he married and they know where He is buried. This are the people who call him a prophet, therefore I clearly don't think any Christian should follow that line, in my opinion. It is that aspect that I am making my point on, not if he was announced by someone at some point as THE prophet.


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## Outsider

I may be wrong, but it seemed to me that ayed just wanted to start a word game, probably to make everyone practise their English.

Given these circumstance, I don't think a discussion of the semantics of "prophet" is in order. If Jesus is regarded as a prophet _by some religions_, then let's count him as such, _for the purposes of this word game_. It don't think God will regard it as blasphemy! 

Alternatively, since it was ayed who started the thread, let him decide which replies are acceptable. It's just a game, folks!


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## Asmodeo

*I don't know if Noah was a prophet, but surely he was naval engineer.*


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## Marc1

Judas Iscariot = treasurer      

Oops but Judas was not a prophet.    

Oh well there is a tribe in New Guinea that regards Judas as their hero... so for the purpose of this game, lets count Judas as a prophet.


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## Benjy

And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. (luke 4:24) 

he calls himself a prophet!!111ghera;p!12@'

what now


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## ayed

> Jews and muslims ...they will tell you ...that he married and they know where He is buried.


 
Marc1 , Generalization is always dangerous.
We, Muslims, believe in Jesus(May Allah's peace be upon him) as a prophet.
Jesus was NOT crucified and never ever died.
Allah , the Glorified and Exalted is He has lifted Jesus up to the second heaven and now he is alive.
On coming of the signs of Hour , the Hereafter , Allah the Almighty will send Jesus down to earth .

Who is next to mention a prophet and his career?


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## Marc1

ayed said:
			
		

> Marc1 , Generalization is always dangerous.
> We, Muslims, believe in Jesus(May Allah's peace be upon him) as a prophet.
> Jesus was NOT crucified and never ever died.
> Allah , the Glorified and Exalted is He has lifted Jesus up to the second heaven and now he is alive.
> On coming of the signs of Hour , the Hereafter , Allah the Almighty will send Jesus down to earth .
> 
> Who is next to mention a prophet and his career?



Why do you quote the bible when you call his author a lier?  
Jesus was not crucified?

I am wasting my time on this thread.


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## te gato

I think that it is very hard to generalize a religion...Everyone has different views and beliefs..sayings and definitions....

I was raised Catholic..and I have always called Jeasus  one thing..'The Son of God '....is that wrong..maybe in someone elses view...but am I wrong in saying it...no..

The names are endless for Jeasus..and it could be argued for a long time on the ' correct ' name..but is there really one?

So it all boils down to point of view..and what you were taught...This is not one of the type of subjects that is either BLACK or WHITE...the grey/gray area is emence...

After we are all dead and gone..this subject will still be argued about...and the conclusion will be the same..there is no conclusion...


Please remember that this was
just MY VIEW...
te gato


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## lainyn

Please, if it doesn't offend people too much, let us keep in mind that the Bible we know today was "engineered" by men in power, who made decisions on which books and letters would be included, at conferences like the Council at (of?) Nicea. Whether you like it or not, Christianity is not a stagnant religion. So my point is, MEN have decided what God wrote, and what were merely the words of men! Do you consider the book of Macabees to be part of the Bible? Did you know that the book of James was considered unbiblical at one point, and they argued about keeping it in?

Anyways, I may be out of line, starting a religious discussion, but I did want to discuss the issue, so feel free to delete my post if necessary 

-Lainyn


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## pinkpanter

Marc1 said:
			
		

> No Christian would call Jesus a prophet even when He technicaly was one. A Christian does not call his Lord "my prophet" but my Lord, even when it is true that He was different things a prophet and a carpenter.
> 
> Jews and muslims restrict Jesus title to "a" prophet, just one more prophet, and they will tell you in order that the testimony to his resurrection was made by paid false witness, and that he married and they know where He is buried. This are the people who call him a prophet, therefore I clearly don't think any Christian should follow that line, in my opinion. It is that aspect that I am making my point on, not if he was announced by someone at some point as THE prophet.



Yes of course! For Christians, Jesus is the Lord. I was not denying that! I just wanted to say that non believers will regard Jesus as a prophet without wanting to do anything bad to Christianity. I mean, for someone who is not really sure that there is a God it's difficult to consider Jesus is God. My point is that some people other than jews and muslims can think of Jesus as a prophet. I agree with you, no Christian should follow that line because it would not make much sense. 
Regards,


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## Benjy

lainyn said:
			
		

> Please, if it doesn't offend people too much, let us keep in mind that the Bible we know today was "engineered" by men in power, who made decisions on which books and letters would be included, at conferences like the Council at (of?) Nicea. Whether you like it or not, Christianity is not a stagnant religion. So my point is, MEN have decided what God wrote, and what were merely the words of men! Do you consider the book of Macabees to be part of the Bible? Did you know that the book of James was considered unbiblical at one point, and they argued about keeping it in?
> 
> Anyways, I may be out of line, starting a religious discussion, but I did want to discuss the issue, so feel free to delete my post if necessary
> 
> -Lainyn



yes i am well aware of wha you just mentioned. i don't think the canon of the bibl is complete. i also don't happen to consider the book(s) of macabees scripture as really its just a historical account (very interesting read non the less) however regardless of wether the bible is complete of not that changes not one jot wether jesus can be called a prophet or not  or even who is and isnt a prophet. there are minor prophets all over the new testament. on example that sticks in my mind is that of the "prophet" who told paul he would be bound if he went to jerusalem

'And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, "So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles."'

all im saying is that who is and isnt a prophet isnt that easy to decide


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## pinkpanter

ayed said:
			
		

> Marc1 , Generalization is always dangerous.
> We, Muslims, believe in Jesus(May Allah's peace be upon him) as a prophet.
> Jesus was NOT crucified and never ever died.
> Allah , the Glorified and Exalted is He has lifted Jesus up to the second heaven and now he is alive.
> On coming of the signs of Hour , the Hereafter , Allah the Almighty will send Jesus down to earth .
> 
> Who is next to mention a prophet and his career?



I am very shocked Ayed. You say generalization is always dangerous. What have you done in your post?? 
Jesus was not crucified? 
There are many things that are known about Jesus as a historic person. Even if you are not sure about Jesus being a divinity he existed and there are things that are considered "historical facts". One of them is that he indeed was crucified. Truth is that there is no way to prove he ressurected or he didn't. We cannot prove one thing or the other. But that he was a very religious man, that he helped others, that he had many followers and that he was crucified because he was regarded as a menace for the system that's history.
Not offence intended Ayed, I respect your beliefs but I think you should not deny things history shows as facts. 
Regards,


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## pinkpanter

Asmodeo said:
			
		

> *I don't know if Noah was a prophet, but surely he was naval engineer.*



 Jeje, right...


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## Benjy

pinkpanter said:
			
		

> I am very shocked Ayed. You say generalization is always dangerous. What have you done in your post??
> Jesus was not crucified?
> There are many things that are known about Jesus as a historic person. Even if you are not sure about Jesus being a divinity he existed and there are things that are considered "historical facts". One of them is that he indeed was crucified. Truth is that there is no way to prove he ressurected or he didn't. We cannot prove one thing or the other. But that he was a very religious man, that he helped others, that he had many followers and that he was crucified because he was regarded as a menace for the system that's history.
> Not offence intended Ayed, I respect your beliefs but I think you should not deny things history shows as facts.
> Regards,



hmmm.. any chance of backing that up?


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## EVAVIGIL

Marc1 said:
			
		

> Hum... Adam and Noah prophets?
> Adam was .... well he just "was", no prophesising there.
> Noah was a leader and a chosen one, but even when he anounced the flood, he was not a profet. The first profet is supposed to be Moses.
> Moses : Sheppard



Maybe you meant "shepherd", Marc1.  
Cheers!
EVA.


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## pinkpanter

Hi Benjy,
I have read about the "historical" Jesus and that is why I say that. Historical accounts do not say anything about his resurrection but they say he was crucified (it was a normal practice for a punishment at the time, not an exception)
Best,


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## Benjy

pinkpanter said:
			
		

> Hi Benjy,
> I have read about the "historical" Jesus and that is why I say that. Historical accounts do not say anything about his resurrection but they say he was crucified (it was a normal practice for a punishment at the time, not an exception)
> Best,



but what historical accounts? books/sources? im curious..


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## pinkpanter

From Wikipedia:

_Of the secular commentators living within memory of Jesus, at least six are claimed to have written material relating to Jesus - Pliny the Younger, Josephus, Suetonius, Philo, Lucian, and Tacitus._


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## pinkpanter

Benjy said:
			
		

> but what historical accounts? books/sources? im curious..



Didn't you study Jesus as a historical person in school? I'm curious too...


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## Benjy

stop dodging the question. do you really think that so many people would question the existance of the man/his crucifixion if there was clear historical evidence of it? i have read some obscure referemces to him by jewish historians but i am wondering what you studied.

and no i didnt study jesus as a historical person at school  i guess thats not part of the curiculum in england


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## pinkpanter

Hi Benjy, I am not dodging the question. I have not what I studied with me here and cannot remember it word by word but the gist of it was that there was historical evidence of him being a historical person.

I knew there is controversy on his divinity or his resurrection  but I did not know his existence or crucification was also questioned.


----------



## DDT

pinkpanter said:
			
		

> I did not know his existence or crucification was also questioned.



It is...just consider that Bethlehem probably didn't exist when Jesus is supposed to be born (almost 2005 years ago). Some archaelogical researches even proved that the site hadn't been founded yet at that time...

Personally I don't think that faith and scientifical evidence should be melted that much...science cannot explain it all, but some scientists pretend so...it's a long story, isn't it?

DDT


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## pinkpanter

DDT said:
			
		

> Personally I don't think that faith and scientifical evidence should be melted that much...science cannot explain it all, but some scientists pretend so...it's a long story, isn't it?



It seems to be!


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## Outsider

pinkpanter said:
			
		

> I am very shocked Ayed. You say generalization is always dangerous. What have you done in your post??
> Jesus was not crucified?


Pinkpanter, I think Ayed was just describing what Muslims believe about Jesus. Can't he do that?


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## Everness

ayed said:
			
		

> Marc1 , Generalization is always dangerous.
> We, Muslims, believe in Jesus(May Allah's peace be upon him) as a prophet.
> Jesus was NOT crucified and never ever died.
> Allah , the Glorified and Exalted is He has lifted Jesus up to the second heaven and now he is alive.
> On coming of the signs of Hour , the Hereafter , Allah the Almighty will send Jesus down to earth .
> 
> Who is next to mention a prophet and his career?



My dear friend: I'm no one to change your theology.  You have the right to believe whatever you want. You even have the right to think whatever you want about Jesus. However, you need to work on the way you communicate your theological beliefs. 

You stated, *Jesus was NOT crucified and never ever died.*
You should have said, *We Muslims, believe that Jesus was NOT crucified and never ever died.*

Please bear in mind that in a couple of days millions of people across the world will celebrate Easter. The belief in Jesus' death is paramount in our theological framework. I'd appreciate some sensitivity on your behalf before posting something like that.  

I'm glad, actually so glad that in Saudi Arabia you don't have to put up with the political correctness bullshit. But this is a bit different. Wouldn't you agree, my Muslim friend?


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## Everness

Benjy said:
			
		

> stop dodging the question. do you really think that so many people would question the existance of the man/his crucifixion if there was clear historical evidence of it? i have read some obscure referemces to him by jewish historians but i am wondering what you studied.
> 
> and no i didnt study jesus as a historical person at school  i guess thats not part of the curiculum in england



One thing is to prove the existence of Jesus and something very different is to believe in his death and resurrection. Let's say that I could prove that Jesus existed, would you believe in his death and especially in his resurrection from the death? Or you would I also need to prove you that he really resurrected on the third day? Let's say that I'm able to prove that he resurrected too. What are you going to do with all those facts? 

Jesus was a 1) charlatan or a fake, 2) a profoundly emotionally disturbed guy or 3) what he said he was: the Son of God. You don't have too many options here. You might use the scientific method to approach Jesus. You can start there and I'm sure you'll be able to collect some data that would prove that he was a historical figure. But eventually, faith needs to kick in.


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## Marc1

So after all, among all the pretend biblical scholars on this thread I was the only person that identified the anti-Christian agenda in the original post. Why else would a Muslim quote "prophets" from the bible?

I said it before and i say it again.
Calling Jesus a prophet is an intentional and calculated way to belittle Christian beliefs, certainly not a novel one, and that is what I pointed at. 

I find it really funny that after pages of "defending" the originator of the thread and his apparently innocent game, you now find yourself with a Muslim who belittles Christianity , ha ha ha, usually it pays to claim expertise in what you really believe not what you pretend to know.

Over and out.


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## Outsider

Everness said:
			
		

> My dear friend: I'm no one to change your theology.  You have the right to believe whatever you want. You even have the right to think whatever you want about Jesus. However, you need to work on the way you communicate your theological beliefs.
> 
> You stated, *Jesus was NOT crucified and never ever died.*
> You should have said, *We Muslims, believe that Jesus was NOT crucified and never ever died.*


Well, he did write:


			
				ayed said:
			
		

> *We, Muslims, believe* in Jesus(May Allah's peace be upon him) as a prophet.
> Jesus was NOT crucified and never ever died.
> Allah , the Glorified and Exalted is He has lifted Jesus up to the second heaven and now he is alive.
> On coming of the signs of Hour , the Hereafter , Allah the Almighty will send Jesus down to earth .
> 
> Who is next to mention a prophet and his career?


Must he repeat the disclaimer in every sentence?


----------



## pinkpanter

Outsider said:
			
		

> Pinkpanter, I think Ayed was just describing what Muslims believe about Jesus. Can't he do that?



For my reading of his post he was not describing but stating.


----------



## pinkpanter

Marc1 said:
			
		

> So after all, among all the pretend biblical scholars on this thread I was the only person that identified the anti-Christian agenda in the original post. Why else would a Muslim quote "prophets" from the bible?
> 
> I said it before and i say it again.
> Calling Jesus a prophet is an intentional and calculated way to belittle Christian beliefs, certainly not a novel one, and that is what I pointed at.
> 
> I find it really funny that after pages of "defending" the originator of the thread and his apparently innocent game, you now find yourself with a Muslim who belittles Christianity , ha ha ha, usually it pays to claim expertise in what you really believe not what you pretend to know.
> 
> Over and out.



Speaking for myself, I did not claim to be an expert. I just said and keep saying that calling Jesus a prophet is not always an intentional way to belittle Christian beliefs. I personally regard him as a prophet and belittling Christianity is not my intention at all. Besides that, neither defending nor attacking anyone was my purpose on this thread.


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## Cath.S.

> Please bear in mind that in a couple of days millions of people across the world will celebrate Easter. The belief in Jesus' death is paramount in our theological framework. I'd appreciate some sensitivity on your behalf before posting something like that.


But here we are nowhere, we are not in Christian land or Muslim land, we are in Virtuality, in the noosphere. 

Do people really need to say "in my belief" "in my opinion" before they say anything? Of course everything we say is an expression of our own belief, our own opinion.

"Jesus was not crucified?" Belief!

"Jesus was crucified?" Another belief!

"Jesus is a fictitious character?" Yet another.

Belief is not science, it's a matter of faith, therefore all beliefs are equally irrational. They rate the same on the Truth Stock Exchange.


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## Everness

Outsider said:
			
		

> Well, he did write:
> 
> Must he repeat the disclaimer in every sentence?



Fair enough. My apologies to ayed.


----------



## Everness

Marc1 said:
			
		

> So after all, among all the pretend biblical scholars on this thread I was the only person that identified the anti-Christian agenda in the original post. Why else would a Muslim quote "prophets" from the bible?
> 
> I said it before and i say it again.
> Calling Jesus a prophet is an intentional and calculated way to belittle Christian beliefs, certainly not a novel one, and that is what I pointed at.
> 
> I find it really funny that after pages of "defending" the originator of the thread and his apparently innocent game, you now find yourself with a Muslim who belittles Christianity , ha ha ha, usually it pays to claim expertise in what you really believe not what you pretend to know.
> 
> Over and out.



Anti-Christian agenda? Oh please! Gimme a break! I misread his post and publicly apologized. The guy can't be more tolerant. On the other hand, it's true that I still don't see the point of finding out what the prophets did on the side but it seems that some people find the exercise amusing. However, the Reformation teaches the sanctity of all vocations or callings: all ways of life are divine vocations. Maybe ayed is onto something. Paul, the greatest theologian Christianity has produced, built tents to support his earthly needs. 

Out of curiosity, do you enlist yourself as a biblical scholar? Men, you really have a great self-deprecatory sense of humor!  Just thank God that attitude and general biblical knowledge aren't criteria of admission to heaven!


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## Everness

egueule said:
			
		

> But here we are nowhere, we are not in Christian land or Muslim land, we are in Virtuality, in the noosphere.
> 
> Do people really need to say "in my belief" "in my opinion" before they say anything? Of course everything we say is an expression of our own belief, our own opinion.
> 
> "Jesus was not crucified?" Belief!
> 
> "Jesus was crucified?" Another belief!
> 
> "Jesus is a fictitious character?" Yet another.
> 
> Belief is not science, it's a matter of faith, therefore all beliefs are equally irrational. They rate the same on the Truth Stock Exchange.



Unfortunately I must acknowledge that you are right on all counts. I was pissed (not a Christian virtue) when I replied to the guy. I misread him. Maybe it also has to do with the sin of ethnocentrism, that is the feeling that one's group has a mode of living, values, and patterns of adaptation that are superior to those of other groups. The problem is that I just love my Reformed theology! 

Question? Where on earth you got the idea of a Truth Stock Exchange?????


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## lainyn

I believe that Eguele was simply using an expression. It's a very good one to say that since all beliefs are opinions, and can't be proven (by their very nature), that they are all equal. Thus, all beliefs contain equal amounts of truth (or lack there of). From this one can extrapolate (is this the right word?) to a stock exchange. 

-Lainyn
*feeling very mixed up at the moment*


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## Cath.S.

Everness said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I must acknowledge that you are right on all counts. I was pissed (not a Christian virtue) when I replied to the guy. I misread him. Maybe it also has to do with the sin of ethnocentrism, that is the feeling that one's group has a mode of living, values, and patterns of adaptation that are superior to those of other groups. The problem is that I just love my Reformed theology!
> 
> Question? Where on earth you got the idea of a Truth Stock Exchange?????


Everness, I certainly appreciate your honesty.  
The iTruth Stock Exchange is just what Lainyn said: a metaphor.  

*Bouddha* was born a prince, later in his life he became a beggar, then after that he was a teacher.

I don't know if Bouddha qualifies as a prophet. I hope he does, but if someone disagrees, it won't annoy me.
Thank you!


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## lsp

Marc1 said:
			
		

> ...Jews and muslims restrict Jesus title to "a" prophet, just one more prophet, and they will tell you in order that the testimony to his resurrection was made by paid false witness, and that he married and they know where He is buried....


*Some* Jews, and *some* muslims may personally believe Jesus was married, etc. So might *some*  Catholics, *some* Native Americans and anyone else you can categorize on this earth. But that is a coincidence, for no religion or ethnic category teaches in its doctrines those ideas. 

As for calling Jesus a prophet, it is nothing more than a matter of semantics and personal understanding of the word's meaning (since so many of us are not biblical scholars, or even close). Your assertions are that all non-Catholics are prejudiced. This strikes me as harsh, unproven, unfair, and unkind. And possibly un-Christian, but I'm not an expert on religion.


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## DDT

As long as my opinion is respected I do respect everyone's opinion and belief even if very different from mine...I don't understand those claiming to be the ones believing in the right god, prophet or whatever   

DDT


----------



## Marc1

pinkpanter said:
			
		

> .... I just said and keep saying that calling Jesus a prophet is not always an intentional way to belittle Christian beliefs. I personally regard him as a prophet and belittling Christianity is not my intention at all.



I am sure of that Pinkpanter.
And that is so because your religious confession may not be defined yet, or you claim agnosticism, nothing wrong with that, it is your choice.

However, not everyone responds in the same way.
Did you know that preaching Christianity directly or by elevation carries the dead penalty in Saudi Arabia? Do you know how many missionary died at the hands of Muslims in the last 20 years?

Would you be able to log onto a Saudi Arabia BB and say that Mohammed was a political leader of his time who single handedly made up a religion with little bits from other religious books, in order to unite the different tribes that where killing each other in senseless skirmish, whilst professing primitive animist beliefs? I doubt it. Plus you wouldn't do it because you don't have the call for it, no one teaches you how and why to do it, nor is there a church that pays you to do it, or provides you with a list of soft targets.

We are a pretty foolish enemy, one that does not even know it is.


----------



## Benjy

Everness said:
			
		

> One thing is to prove the existence of Jesus and something very different is to believe in his death and resurrection. Let's say that I could prove that Jesus existed, would you believe in his death and especially in his resurrection from the death? Or you would I also need to prove you that he really resurrected on the third day? Let's say that I'm able to prove that he resurrected too. What are you going to do with all those facts?
> 
> Jesus was a 1) charlatan or a fake, 2) a profoundly emotionally disturbed guy or 3) what he said he was: the Son of God. You don't have too many options here. You might use the scientific method to approach Jesus. You can start there and I'm sure you'll be able to collect some data that would prove that he was a historical figure. But eventually, faith needs to kick in.



mmmm.. where did i say that i didn't believe in christ. i spent the last two years of my life on missionary service in france lol. if you go back to the start of the thread (around post 22 perhaps..) you might have noticed that i quoted the speech of peter (acts 3 etc..) before you, and a whole host of other scriptures to support the point i was making. i have been studying the bible pretty mch my entire life and am well aware of the "contempory" historians that mention jesus (i studied latin so i read pliny, and the antiquities (josephus) are interesting). i would also point out that none of these things prove he was who he said he was or that such and such events occured which is what was being implied.

so before laying down the law of faith and knowledge of the bible it pays to know a little about the person who you are addressing


----------



## Everness

Benjy said:
			
		

> mmmm.. where did i say that i didn't believe in christ. i spent the last two years of my life on missionary service in france lol. if you go back to the start of the thread (around post 22 perhaps..) you might have noticed that i quoted the speech of peter (acts 3 etc..) before you, and a whole host of other scriptures to support the point i was making. i have been studying the bible pretty mch my entire life and am well aware of the "contempory" historians that mention jesus (i studied latin so i read pliny, and the antiquities (josephus) are interesting). i would also point out that none of these things prove he was who he said he was or that such and such events occured which is what was being implied.
> 
> so before laying down the law of faith and knowledge of the bible it pays to know a little about the person who you are addressing



This is not the first time I have to apologize to someone for either misreading or not reading enough, in this case all previous posts. But my intention wasn't to apply my line of argumentation to you specifically. I was trying to make a point, namely that you can't reach God just using your mind. There are people who don't believe in God because they say that they can see him (Remember Thomas?). God is larger than our finite mind. Faith in who God is and did for us is the only thing we can do to reach a meaningful relationship with him. There's nothing we can do. Viva Calvino!


----------



## Everness

DDT said:
			
		

> As long as my opinion is respected I do respect everyone's opinion and belief even if very different from mine...I don't understand those claiming to be the ones believing in the right god, prophet or whatever
> DDT



I'm not quite sure if you are religious or not. But if you were, I'm sure that you would claim that you are believing in the "right god, prophet or whatever." The key, as you argue, is to respect other people's beliefs. However, you can't be religious without having faith in someone or something that you believe is right. You shop around and make a final decision. Believing in that someone or something automatically makes the other options not as valuable or right as yours. But there's nothing wrong with that. 

By the way, it's interesting that some missionary groups have stopped doing missionary work in other cultures out of respect to their beliefs systems and that in some Muslim countries any type of Christian evangelism is banned. My understanding is that if they catch you trying to convert someone to Christianity something bad could happen to you. Maybe ayed can talk about that further.

Religion is dogmatic. There are religions that teach that there's only one God and/or body of doctrine one can believe in and follow and there are religions that teach that one can believe in whatever one wants. Well, both are dogmatic. I've found out that the latter are more dogmatic than the former and much more intolerant. In a nutshell, "Hay personas que tienen la mente tan cerrada que no les entra nada y hay personas que tienen la mente tan abierta que no les queda nada". When it comes to religion, it's very difficult to keep a balance between these extremes.


----------



## zebedee

Marc1 said:
			
		

> I am sure of that Pinkpanter.
> And that is so because your religious confession may not be defined yet, or you claim agnosticism, nothing wrong with that, it is your choice.
> 
> However, not everyone responds in the same way.
> Did you know that preaching Christianity directly or by elevation carries the dead penalty in Saudi Arabia? Do you know how many missionary died at the hands of Muslims in the last 20 years?
> 
> Would you be able to log onto a Saudi Arabia BB and say that Mohammed was a political leader of his time who single handedly made up a religion with little bits from other religious books, in order to unite the different tribes that where killing each other in senseless skirmish, whilst professing primitive animist beliefs? I doubt it. Plus you wouldn't do it because you don't have the call for it, no one teaches you how and why to do it, nor is there a church that pays you to do it, or provides you with a list of soft targets.
> 
> We are a pretty foolish enemy, one that does not even know it is.



Marc, the idea of this thread was to give the professions of prophets. Then there was a general discussion about what makes a prophet. The conclusion has been that the definition is wide and depends on people's religious beliefs, all of which are valid. You magnanimously allow Pinkpanter to be agnostic yet you refuse to let non-Christian religions have their point of view as valid.

And why are you talking about killings, targets and enemies?

With your antagonistic tone you have not only taken the thread way off topic but in your religious fervour you are revealing yourself to be slightly paranoid and rather insulting to other foreros.

I'm closing this thread. It no longer has anything to do with the original question.

zebedee.


----------

