# Sabbati



## Ovidius

Hi,

Who can tell me what does Sabbati mean in this following sentence:

"Adest Christus in anima ad sepulcrum ex limbo cum Angelis, animabus Patrum, ad finem crepusculi prima Sabbati."

Thanks a lot!


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## infinite sadness

Potrebbe essere: ... alla fine della sera, all'inizio del sabato (cioè nella notte tra Venerdì e Sabato).


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## Ovidius

Grazie mille e buon Natale！


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## kreiner

"Prima sabbati" is the Latin translation of Greek _prote sabbatou _(Mark 16: 9), and its meaning here is "the first day of the week".


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## Ovidius

kreiner said:


> "Prima sabbati" is the Latin translation of Greek _prote sabbatou _(Mark 16: 9), and its meaning here is "the first day of the week".



Thanks, I guess this would be the correct answer. 

http://bible.ovu.edu/terry/articles/mkendsty.htm


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## Kevin Beach

I know that this is the Latin forum and not the etymology forum, but I'm scratching my head about the statement that _prima Sabatti_ means the first day of the week.

Unless I have missed something, _Sabbati_ comes from the Hebrew word _Shabbat_, i.e. the seventh day of the week, on which the Jewish faithful rested. In the Christian Church, the Sabbath became the first day of the week on the basis that the first thing that mankind did (according to the Book of Genesis) after God finished his Creation and rested, was to praise Him. Therefore the Christian Sabbath became a day of praise to God at the beginning of the week.

_Prima_ sounds to me like a contraction of _prima hora_, meaning "at the first hour", i.e. by modern reckoning, sunrise or about 6.0 a.m. under the Roman method of reckoning time and the beginning of the day.

"Sabbath" can be either feminine or neuter in Latin: _sabbata_ or _sabbatum_. _Sabatti_ has no place in the first declension, so I interpret it as the neuter genitive singular. 

If I'm right, then _prima Sabatti_ means "at the first (hour) of the Sabbath", which would be dawn on Sunday if it is a Christian text. If it were a Jewish text it would mean sunset on Friday, because sunset represents the beginning of a new day under Jewish practice and _Shabbat_ is from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday..


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## radagasty

I don't think that there is much doubt the term _prima Sabatti _refers to the first day of the week. The use of synecdoche with _Sabbath _is well established. Matthew 28:1 makes it quite clear that this is the required sense:

Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων ἦλθεν Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαριὰ θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον.

_Vespere autem sabbati quæ lucescit in primam sabbati venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulchrum._

Here, _sabbatum_ occurs twice, and it is clear that the second occurrence must mean 'week' and not 'Sabbath day', which is the meaning of the first occurrence.

As for your contention, Kevin, of _prima_ being a contraction of _prima hora_, I would say it is much more like to be a contraction of _prima dies_, or rather, that it should be considered so, following the Greek μία σαββάτων. In John 20:19, it is evident that μία here contrasts with ἡμέρα in ἡ ἡμέρα ἐκείνη:

Οὔσης οὖν ὀψίας τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων καὶ τῶν θυρῶν κεκλεισμένων ὅπου ἦσαν οἱ μαθηταὶ συνηγμένοι διὰ τὸν φόβον τῶν Ἰουδαίων ἦλθεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ ἔστη εἰς τὸ μέσον καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς Εἰρήνη ὑμῖν.


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## Kevin Beach

radagasty said:


> I don't think that there is much doubt the term _prima Sabatti _refers to the first day of the week. The use of synecdoche with _Sabbath _is well established. Matthew 28:1 makes it quite clear that this is the required sense:
> 
> Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων ἦλθεν Μαρία ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαριὰ θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον.
> 
> _Vespere autem sabbati quæ lucescit in primam sabbati venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulchrum._
> 
> Here, _sabbatum_ occurs twice, and it is clear that the second occurrence must mean 'week' and not 'Sabbath day', which is the meaning of the first occurrence.
> 
> As for your contention, Kevin, of _prima_ being a contraction of _prima hora_, I would say it is much more like to be a contraction of _prima dies_, or rather, that it should be considered so, following the Greek μία σαββάτων. In John 20:19, it is evident that μία here contrasts with ἡμέρα in ἡ ἡμέρα ἐκείνη:
> 
> Οὔσης οὖν ὀψίας τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων καὶ τῶν θυρῶν κεκλεισμένων ὅπου ἦσαν οἱ μαθηταὶ συνηγμένοι διὰ τὸν φόβον τῶν Ἰουδαίων ἦλθεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ ἔστη εἰς τὸ μέσον καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς Εἰρήνη ὑμῖν.


Then how do you explain the use of the neuter genitive singular Sabbat_i_, which can only mean "of the Sabbath"?


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## infinite sadness

At the first hour of Saturday.


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## radagasty

Kevin Beach said:


> Then how do you explain the use of the neuter genitive singular Sabbat_i_, which can only mean "of the Sabbath"?


 
You seem to have missed my point entirely: the neuter noun _sabbatum_, in the genitive or any other case, means either 'Sabbath' or, by synecdoche, 'week', following Greek usage. The plural is undoubtedly more common, but it does occur in the singular. The verse I cited from Matt 28 makes this clear.


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## Kevin Beach

radagasty said:


> You seem to have missed my point entirely: the neuter noun _sabbatum_, in the genitive or any other case, means either 'Sabbath' or, by synecdoche, 'week', following Greek usage. The plural is undoubtedly more common, but it does occur in the singular. The verse I cited from Matt 28 makes this clear.


Well, I wondered if that was what you were driving at, but as I don't have Greek it wasn't clear.

To be certain then: are you saying that Early Christian Latin usage, following early Christian Greek usage, employed "Sabbatum" to mean "a week"?


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## CapnPrep

Kevin Beach said:


> "Sabbath" can be either feminine or neuter in Latin: _sabbata_ or _sabbatum_.


Where have you seen _sabbata_ as a feminine noun?


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## Cagey

Here it seems to be a feminine noun.'memini bene, sed meliore   
tempore dicam; *hodie tricensima sabbata*: vin tu
curtis Iudaeis oppedere?' (Horace _Satire_ 1.9)​Perseus finds an example in Petronius and Juvenal each.

*Added*: I originally posted but then removed the following example:
book Ezekiel, chapter 20:_ ... faciat homo et vivat in eis      insuper et sabbata  mea dedi eis ...._
but then removed it because I see it as a neuter plural, the point radagasty makes below.


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## radagasty

Cagey said:


> Here it seems to be a feminine noun.
> 'memini bene, sed meliore
> tempore dicam; *hodie tricensima sabbata*: vin tu
> curtis Iudaeis oppedere?' (Horace _Satire_ 1.9)​Perseus finds an example in Petronius and Juvenal each.


 
I would say that _sabbata _is more likely to be a neuter plural here -- at least, that was my instinctive reaction -- but I accept that it can be construed as a feminine singular. Certainly, the examples from Ezekiel you linked to are definitely plurals.

I must own that I was somewhat taken aback when I read Kevin's claim that _sabbata_ could be a feminine noun, but I doubted myself. Given CapnPrep's intervention, I feel that I am on surer ground in construing the example from Horace as a neuter plural.


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## Cagey

radagasty said:


> I would say that _sabbata _is more likely to be a neuter plural here -- at least, that was my instinctive reaction -- but I accept that it can be construed as a feminine singular. [....]


I don't see how the Horace example can be construed as a plural, given that I take_ hodie _as referring to a single day. 


radagasty said:


> [....] Certainly, the examples from Ezekiel you linked to are  definitely plurals.
> 
> [....]


 I agree with you, which I why I deleted that example. I must have done it while you were writing this.  I apologize for the confusion this caused.


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## CapnPrep

Cagey said:


> I don't see how the Horace example can be construed as a plural, given that I take_ hodie _as referring to a single day.


The idea is that _sabbata _can be a plural with singular reference. L&S cite the same example from Horace under the headword _sabbata, -orum_.


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## Kevin Beach

radagasty said:


> I must own that I was somewhat taken aback when I read Kevin's claim that _sabbata_ could be a feminine noun, but I doubted myself. Given CapnPrep's intervention, I feel that I am on surer ground in construing the example from Horace as a neuter plural.


My apologies. I misread a dictionary, which, on deeper reading, lists only the plural (_Sabbata_) without explaining why. I had assumed it was the singular.

I now have no authority for my assertion that Sabbata is a 1st declension singular noun.


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## radagasty

Cagey said:


> I don't see how the Horace example can be construed as a plural, given that I take_ hodie _as referring to a single day.


 
As CapnPrep explained, _sabbata, -orum, _although plural in form, can have a singular meaning, cf. _litterae_, _aedes_, _tenebrae_, etc. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that, in this case, the plural is more common than the singular. This may be in imitation of Greek usage -- cf. Mt 28:1 where σαββάτων occurs twice in the plural with a singular meaning (although the Vulgate in this verse has translated them with singulars) -- but the use of a plural form with a singular meaning (even with words normally singular with a singular meaning) is common enough in classical Latin, esp. in verse.

It wasn't completely clear to me what Horace meant by _tricensima sabbata_, so I had a look in Acron's and Porphyrion's commentaries on the Satires. They both construe this noun phrase in the neuter plural, e.g., Porphyrion, where _Sabbata _is modified by the neuter plural adjective _lunaria_:

"_hodie tricensima sabbata_: _Sabbata lunaria_ significat, quia vulgares homines ferias sibi adsumunt."


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## radagasty

Kevin Beach said:


> To be certain then: are you saying that Early Christian Latin usage, following early Christian Greek usage, employed "Sabbatum" to mean "a week"?


 
Sorry... I realise I never answered your question.

The short answer is YES, although I am slightly nonplussed by the qualifier 'early' as you have phrased the question. I'm not sure that this usage is restricted to early Christian Greek and Latin, but _sabbatum_ (singular, or more commonly, plural) is certainly used to mean 'week' therein (as well as 'Sabbath').


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## Kevin Beach

radagasty said:


> Sorry... I realise I never answered your question.
> 
> The short answer is YES, although I am slightly nonplussed by the qualifier 'early' as you have phrased the question. I'm not sure that this usage is restricted to early Christian Greek and Latin, but _sabbatum_ (singular, or more commonly, plural) is certainly used to mean 'week' therein (as well as 'Sabbath').


Thanks for that. The reason I attributed it to Christian usage is that I don't see how a Hebrew (? Aramaic ?) word, from a very small part of the Greek-speaking world, could come to be used generally in Greek. That is, unless _Sabbatum_ is not cognate with _Shabbat_ at all and their similarity is pure coincidence.


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## radagasty

Kevin Beach said:


> Thanks for that. The reason I attributed it to Christian usage is that I don't see how a Hebrew (? Aramaic ?) word, from a very small part of the Greek-speaking world, could come to be used generally in Greek. That is, unless _Sabbatum_ is not cognate with _Shabbat_ at all and their similarity is pure coincidence.


 
As early citations of _Σάββατον_ come almost exclusively from the Septuagint, I think it is safe to assume that this does belong to Christian usage. It was the qualifier 'early' rather than 'Christian' that I was wondering about.


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## Kevin Beach

radagasty said:


> As early citations of _Σάββατον_ come almost exclusively from the Septuagint, I think it is safe to assume that this does belong to Christian usage. It was the qualifier 'early' rather than 'Christian' that I was wondering about.


By early, I meant from 1st to 3rd centuries, I suppose. I wasn't trying to be definitive. I was distinguishing the usage from pre-Christian times, not from later Christian times.

Yet, surely the usage in the Septuagint would have been very restricted, wouldn't it? Is there any evidence of non-Jewish use before the Christian era?


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## radagasty

Kevin Beach said:


> Yet, surely the usage in the Septuagint would have been very restricted, wouldn't it? Is there any evidence of non-Jewish use before the Christian era?


 
The Hebrew _shabbat_ is systematically translated as Σάββᾰτον in the Septuagint, but it generally means 'Sabbath' and not 'week'. I rather doubt that there was any non-Jewish use before the Christian era; certainly, I'm not aware of any evidence for it.


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## MRossi

sabbatum
s. n. II decl.

S

N sabbatum
G sabbati
D sabbato
A sabbatum
V sabbatum
AB sabbato	

PL

N sabbata
G sabbatorum
D sabbatis
A sabbata
V sabbata
AB sabbatis

Dictionary: 

*Saturday*: sabbatum observare ,to honor the Saturday,Aug;
Often used only in the plural form sabbata,orum.
*Saturday,Jews Festivity*:
peregrina sabbata,ebraic celebration of saturday,Ov;
hodie tricesima (dies)*,*sabbata,today is the new moon and it is saturday,Hor; (tricesima with dies tacit,the new moon honored by jews).
others: hodie tricesima sabbata,today is the thirtieth saturday (another jews festivity).


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## Kevin Beach

MRossi said:


> [...]
> Dictionary:
> 
> *Saturday*: sabbatum observare ,to honor the Saturday,Aug;
> Often used only in the plural form sabbata,orum.
> *Saturday,Jews Festivity*:
> peregrina sabbata,ebraic celebration of saturday,Ov;
> hodie tricesima (dies)*,*sabbata,today is the new moon and it is saturday,Hor; (tricesima with dies tacit,the new moon honored by jews).
> others: hodie tricesima sabbata,today is the thirtieth saturday (another jews festivity).


Now I'm really confused! Assuming that your abbreviation *Ov* is meant for the poet Ovid, then he died more than a decade before Jesus' ministry began, let alone the spread of His teachings.

How is it that a poet whose life was centred on Roman culture would use or adopt a word from the language spoken by a small subject nation in the far corner of the empire?


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## MRossi

it should be Ovid ,Remedia Amoris ,219-220,the full sentence is "Nec pluvias vites:nec te *peregina* morentur *Sabbata*;nec damnis Allia nota suis."

here the full text on latin--->http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?seq=13&view=image&size=100&id=nyp.33433074383294&u=1&num=97
 
here an explication attempt --->http://www06.us.archive.org/stream/jewsamonggreeks02radigoog/jewsamonggreeks02radigoog_djvu.txt

Search for "peregrina".
It could be also translated as "foreign saturday".


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