# w Warszawie i we Wrocławiu



## LeTasmanien

Hi all,
Can anyone tell me how we can know when to use 'we' in cases such as these, 
n.p. we Włoszech, we wtorek, w wrześniu ale
w Warszawie, w Wiedniu i.t.p.

Is it simply that when the letter after the 'W' in the noun is a vowel then 'w' is used and otherwise 'we' is used?

Thanks
Philip.


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## zaffy

you use 'we' if a word begins with the 'w' and then there comes another consonant.

eg, We Francji

However, sometimes a 'w' is also acceptable, eg, w środę or we środę


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## Ben Jamin

LeTasmanien said:


> Hi all,
> Can anyone tell me how we can know when to use 'we' in cases such as these,
> n.p. we Włoszech, we wtorek, w wrześniu ale
> w Warszawie, w Wiedniu i.t.p.
> 
> Is it simply that when the letter after the 'W' in the noun is a vowel then 'w' is used and otherwise 'we' is used?
> 
> Thanks
> Philip.


We say "we wrześniu". It all depends on how difficult the cluster feels for the speaker, so there are some variations.


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## LeTasmanien

zaffy said:


> you use 'we' if a word begins with the 'w' and then there comes another consonant.
> 
> eg, We Francji
> 
> However, sometimes a 'w' is also acceptable, eg, w środę or we środę



Clearer now. Thanks very much.


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## LeTasmanien

Ben Jamin said:


> We say "we wrześniu". It all depends on how difficult the cluster feels for the speaker, so there are some variations.



Sorry, that was a typo on my part.
Thanks.


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## jasio

LeTasmanien said:


> Hi all,
> Can anyone tell me how we can know when to use 'we' in cases such as these,
> n.p. we Włoszech, we wtorek, w wrześniu ale
> w Warszawie, w Wiedniu i.t.p.
> 
> Is it simply that when the letter after the 'W' in the noun is a vowel then 'w' is used and otherwise 'we' is used?


If fact, in practce it may be quite complex - "we" behaves like an archaic form of "w" which partially went out of usage. The most obvious rule says that "we" is used before words beginning with labiodental fricatives ("w" i "f") followed by a consonant: "w Warszawie, Falenicy, Wiedniu" but "we Wrocławiu, Frankfurcie, Francji". This rule is purely based on phonetics, so we say 'w opowiadaniu', but 'we wzruszającym opowiadaniu'.

However, sometimes "we" is also used before other consonant clusters, especially in specific contexts:

we środę (on Wednesday), but "w Środzie Śląskiej" (in Sroda Slaska) - although the form "w środę" is also correct and some sources prefer it

we czwartek (on Thursday) vs. w czwartym domu (in the fourth house) - likewise

we dwóch / trzech / czterech (np. poszliśmy tam we dwóch - two of us went there) vs. "w dwóch / trzech / czterech otworach" (in two wholes). 

Similarly, we dwoje, we dwie, we dwójkę - but w dwanaście, w dwanaścioro

we dworze (in the mansion house) vs. w dworzyszczu (in a manor) or w dworskiej kuchni (in the court's kitchen)
we mszy (w mszy is also correct) but w mszale
sometimes 'i' is fonetically considered as consonant, so we Fiorentinie, we fioletach - although 'w' is also ok in these cases, and in 'w fioletowej sukni' "w" is the only option. "we Wiedniu is a similar example - although I have only heard it as an artistic archaisation, because normally "w Wiedniu" is used.

we Lwowie but w lwiej grzywie
we mnie, vs. w mniemaniu


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## LeTasmanien

jasio said:


> If fact, in practce it may be quite complex - "we" behaves like an archaic form of "w" which partially went out of usage. The most obvious rule says that "we" is used before words beginning with labiodental fricatives ("w" i "f") followed by a consonant: "w Warszawie, Falenicy, Wiedniu" but "we Wrocławiu, Frankfurcie, Francji". This rule is purely based on phonetics, so we say 'w opowiadaniu', but 'we wzruszającym opowiadaniu'.
> 
> However, sometimes "we" is also used before other consonant clusters, especially in specific contexts:
> 
> we środę (on Wednesday), but "w Środzie Śląskiej" (in Sroda Slaska) - although the form "w środę" is also correct and some sources prefer it
> 
> we czwartek (on Thursday) vs. w czwartym domu (in the fourth house) - likewise
> 
> we dwóch / trzech / czterech (np. poszliśmy tam we dwóch - two of us went there) vs. "w dwóch / trzech / czterech otworach" (in two wholes).
> 
> Similarly, we dwoje, we dwie, we dwójkę - but w dwanaście, w dwanaścioro
> 
> we dworze (in the mansion house) vs. w dworzyszczu (in a manor) or w dworskiej kuchni (in the court's kitchen)
> we mszy (w mszy is also correct) but w mszale
> sometimes 'i' is fonetically considered as consonant, so we Fiorentinie, we fioletach - although 'w' is also ok in these cases, and in 'w fioletowej sukni' "w" is the only option. "we Wiedniu is a similar example - although I have only heard it as an artistic archaisation, because normally "w Wiedniu" is used.
> 
> we Lwowie but w lwiej grzywie
> we mnie, vs. w mniemaniu



Thanks very much Jasio.
A very comprehensive reply but more complicated than I had expected!


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## jasio

LeTasmanien said:


> Thanks very much Jasio.
> A very comprehensive reply but more complicated than I had expected!


I'm sorry to hear that, but that's a nautural language. ;-)

Anyway, for practical reasons, you may safely master the basic rule ("w/f + consonant") and perhaps a few exceptions which you feel likely to encounter and then rely on the native speakers you're dealing with, with regards to the rest. The long form is gradually disappearing, so probably there's no point in memorising exceptions which you may not have an opportunity to use.

PS. A similar case is with z/ze, even the rules are similar, except that a cluster of "z"-"z/s"-"consonant" is avoided.


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