# Präpositionen



## gaer

Here's my attempt at starting a discussion about prepositions that are very hard. 

There must be a thousand others phrases like these that baffle me. I never misread them. I ALWAYS write them wrong.

*auf* der Arbeit sein, to be at work
*in* der Schule sein, to be at school

*zur* Arbeit gehen, to go to work
*in* die Schule gehen, to go to school


*am* Wochenende Zeit haben, to have the weekend free
*an* Wochenenden Zeit haben, to have weekends free
(dieses/nächstes Wochenende Zeit haben,  to have this/next weekend free)



Please correct any of these if they are wrong!

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Here's my attempt at starting a discussion about prepositions that are very hard.
> 
> There must be a thousand others phrases like these that baffle me. I never misread them. I ALWAYS write them wrong.
> 
> *auf* der Arbeit sein, to be at work
> *in* der Schule sein, to be at school
> 
> *zur* Arbeit gehen, to go to work
> *in* die Schule gehen, to go to school
> 
> 
> *am* Wochenende Zeit haben, to have the weekend free
> *an* Wochenenden Zeit haben, to have weekends free
> (dieses/nächstes Wochenende Zeit haben,  to have this/next weekend free)
> 
> 
> 
> Please correct any of these if they are wrong!
> 
> Gaer



Actually, there's everything correct. But you could better say "auf Arbeit sein" without an article. Don't ask me why.

And to make it easier to you, I'll tell you that it is possible or even more familiar to say "zur Schule gehen".

And I think there is no confusion of "am Wochenende" and "an Wochenenden", since you could also say "an dem Wochenende" and "an den Wochenenden", so you have the preposition an and an article.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Actually, there's everything correct. But you could better say "auf Arbeit sein" without an article. Don't ask me why.
> 
> And to make it easier to you, I'll tell you that it is possible or even more familiar to say "zur Schule gehen".


First, two suggestions:

Actually, everything is correct _there_.

And (on topic!)

And to make it easier _for_ you. 

The other student I talked to did not suggest "auf Arbeit sein". Could this be a regional difference? Or did she fail to mention that?

"Zur Schule gehen" is easier to remeber, of course! 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> First, two suggestions:
> 
> Actually, everything is correct _there_.
> 
> And (on topic!)
> 
> And to make it easier _for_ you.



All correction are appreciated. Thanks.   



> The other student I talked to did not suggest "auf Arbeit sein". Could this be a regional difference? Or did she fail to mention that?



Actually, it's not a regional difference, but it's a familiar way to say "auf der Arbeit sein" that sounds really odd to me because you can't be "ON TOP OF" the work. You can be ON work_ing_, and ON TOP OF the "place of work". Okay, that might sound bad to English ears, but I think so I can make it clear.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> All correction are appreciated. Thanks.
> 
> As I get more courage to write German, you won't be have TIME to correct all my mistakes!
> 
> Actually, it's not a regional difference, but it's a familiar way to say "auf der Arbeit sein" that sounds really odd to me because you can't be "ON TOP OF" the work. You can be ON work_ing_, and ON TOP OF the "place of work". Okay, that might sound bad to English ears, but I think so I can make it clear.


 
"Ich bin auf der Arbeit" appears about twice as often as "Ich bin auf arbeit" on Google. You know that does not show what is right, but in this case it seems as though the second way is more like English: I am at work. (Not: I am at the work.) 

Gaer


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## mnzrob

Man kann doch auch "bei der Arbeit", oder "in der Arbeit" sagen, oder?

Er ist nicht zuhause, er ist bei der Arbeit.
Er ist nicht zuhause, er ist in der Arbeit.

Ich finde, daß "bei der Arbeit" sich am besten an hoert. Oder habe ich das ein bißchen Amerikanisiert?


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## Artrella

I will take advantage of this interesting thread Gaer opened... and will ask a question... well of course..

When we refer to "Strasse" which is the preposition we have to use?  I know there are several that collocate with Strasse.  Please any native there to help me??

Another one... "Bett" ... I was taught that if it is winter you are "in" the bed and if it is summer you are "on" the bed, according to the fact of your being covered or not with the blanket.  Is this right?


Danke Leute!


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## mnzrob

You are "auf der Strasse", or "in der Strasse" depending on context. 
Ich bin/fahre gerade auf der Koenigsstrasse. 
Das Restaurant ist in der Koenigsstrasse.

Ich liege im Bett. Ich schlafe im Bett.
Ich liege auf dem Bett.
All of these are correct, and I suppose it does depend on the temperature and whether you are covered or not, but I don't know the rule.
Anyone else?


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## Artrella

mnzrob said:
			
		

> You are "auf der Strasse", or "in der Strasse" depending on context.
> Ich bin/fahre gerade auf der Koenigsstrasse.
> Das Restaurant ist in der Koenigsstrasse.
> 
> Ich liege im Bett. Ich schlafe im Bett.
> Ich liege auf dem Bett.
> All of these are correct, and I suppose it does depend on the temperature and whether you are covered or not, but I don't know the rule.
> Anyone else?




Well, thank you MNZrob...  
But I need to know in the case of "Strasse" which criterion makes me choose one or the other.  It seems (according to your examples) that if there is movement you use "auf" but if there is not movement (situativ) you use "in"... am I on the right track??


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## Ralf

Hi Art.

Having a few minutes off I will try to answer your questions.





			
				Artrella said:
			
		

> ...When we refer to "Strasse" which is the preposition we have to use? I know there are several that collocate with Strasse. Please any native there to help me??


A few examples:
- Die Kinder spielen auf der Straße
- Autos fahren auf der Straße
both are referring to activities on the road

- Ich wohne an einer Hauptstraße - referring to a specific category of roads
- Ich wohne auf der Haptstraße - here "Hauptstraße" is actually the name of the road where my home is located
- Ich wohne in der Hauptmannstraße - "Hauptmannstraße" is the name of the road again; Although this is quite frequently heard it _may_ sound a little strange - just stick to the previous version to be on the save side

- Wir gehen über die Straße
- Die Brücke führt über die Straße
both are referring to crossing a road

- Nach 200m fahre ich in die Seitenstraße - turning into a road
- Da vorn ist ein Schlagloch in der Straße - There is a pothole in (the surface of) the road ahead





> Another one... "Bett" ... I was taught that if it is winter you are "in" the bed and if it is summer you are "on" the bed, according to the fact of your being covered or not with the blanket. Is this right?


Well, I dont think this can be assumed to be a general rule. "Auf dem Bett" means generally 'lying on the bed' but not underneath it. Sleeping in your bed usually means you are lying on it, no matter of the season. Just consider:

Ich schlafe im Bett. Im Sommer schlafe ich auch in meinem Bett.
Mein Buch liegt auf dem Bett.
Ich liege auf dem Bett (not inevitably sleeping but eventually with my headset on to listen to my favourite CD).

"Ich schlafe auf dem Bett" may indeed has the connotation without being covered with a blanket, perhaps for a quick nap. But referring to your regular sleep during nighttime you will usually hear "Ich schlafe im Bett", in winter as well as in summer.

Hope this helps. 

Ralf


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> "Ich bin auf der Arbeit" appears about twice as often as "Ich bin auf arbeit" on Google. You know that does not show what is right, but in this case it seems as though the second way is more like English: I am at work. (Not: I am at the work.)
> 
> Gaer



Nevertheless, the second way is more colloquial and the first one "official" language. Googling might be a help sometimes, but I think, you cannot google or yahoo or ... any phrases, because the context is missing for a machine as Google is.

I prefer "auf Arbeit sein" and not "auf der Arbeit sein", the same as "auf Arbeit gehen" and "auf die Arbeit(sstelle) gehen" — I also prefer the first one. So, in a formal letter, maybe after an accident to my work, I would write "als ich auf die Arbeit ging" or "Als ich zur Arbeit ging" or even better "Als ich mich auf dem Weg zu meiner Arbeit(sstelle) befand". Got it?

If not, I'll try to explain it again with other examples.


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## gaer

mnzrob said:
			
		

> Man kann doch auch "bei der Arbeit", oder "in der Arbeit" sagen, oder?
> 
> Er ist nicht zuhause, er ist bei der Arbeit.
> Er ist nicht zuhause, er ist in der Arbeit.
> 
> Ich finde, daß "bei der Arbeit" sich am besten an hoert. Oder habe ich das ein bißchen Amerikanisiert?


I saw "bie der Arbeit" show up about 1/2 as often as "auf der Arbeit". So it must be quite common.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Nevertheless, the second way is more colloquial and the first one "official" language. Googling might be a help sometimes, but I think, you cannot google or yahoo or ... any phrases, because the context is missing for a machine as Google is.
> 
> I prefer "auf Arbeit sein" and not "auf der Arbeit sein", the same as "auf Arbeit gehen" and "auf die Arbeit(sstelle) gehen" — I also prefer the first one. So, in a formal letter, maybe after an accident to my work, I would write "als ich auf die Arbeit ging" or "Als ich zur Arbeit ging" or even better "Als ich mich auf dem Weg zu meiner Arbeit(sstelle) befand". Got it?
> 
> If not, I'll try to explain it again with other examples.


I don't use Google to prove anything is right or wrong for the reasons you mentioned, just to find out if it is used. There is also a question of written German vs. spoken German. And of course I would be a fool to give an opinion, since in such matters I'm here to learn. 

Another German told me that it's "Ich bin a' der Arbeit", with the "auf" clipped. So regional differences have been reported to me. I'm just passing along what I've been told. 

Gaer


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## Artrella

Ralf said:
			
		

> Hi Art.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Ralf




  Ralf, du bist das Beste(??) !! Danke vielmals!!


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## gaer

Artrella said:
			
		

> Well, thank you MNZrob...
> But I need to know in the case of "Strasse" which criterion makes me choose one or the other. It seems (according to your examples) that if there is movement you use "auf" but if there is not movement (situativ) you use "in"... am I on the right track??


Art,

I started this thread for the very reason that you are having trouble.

Let's take this apart:

_You are "auf der Strasse", or "in der Strasse" depending on context._ 

Let me learn along with you. So far I am confused too.

_Ich bin/fahre gerade auf der Koenigsstrasse. _
_Das Restaurant ist in der Koenigsstrasse._

Okay. Now we are in preposition hell. 

I understand why it is "auf DER Strasse sein". No movement. But why "auf DER Strasse fahren"?

And the restaurant is "IN" the street. Now, I know Ralf posted help on this subject, and I'm about to read it, but this gives me a freaking HEADACHE. I truly HATE this part of German, and it is the largest reason why I won't write it. <gggrrr> 


Gaer (equally frustrated by German prepositions!)


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## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> Hi Art.
> 
> Having a few minutes off I will try to answer your questions.A few examples:
> - Die Kinder spielen auf der Straße
> - Autos fahren auf der Straße
> both are referring to activities on the road
> 
> - Ich wohne an einer Hauptstraße - referring to a specific category of roads
> - Ich wohne auf der Haptstraße - here "Hauptstraße" is actually the name of the road where my home is located
> - Ich wohne in der Hauptmannstraße - "Hauptmannstraße" is the name of the road again; Although this is quite frequently heard it _may_ sound a little strange - just stick to the previous version to be on the save side
> 
> - Wir gehen über die Straße
> - Die Brücke führt über die Straße
> both are referring to crossing a road
> 
> - Nach 200m fahre ich in die Seitenstraße - turning into a road
> - Da vorn ist ein Schlagloch in der Straße - There is a pothole in (the surface of) the road aheadWell, I dont think this can be assumed to be a general rule. "Auf dem Bett" means generally 'lying on the bed' but not underneath it. Sleeping in your bed usually means you are lying on it, no matter of the season. Just consider:
> 
> Ich schlafe im Bett. Im Sommer schlafe ich auch in meinem Bett.
> Mein Buch liegt auf dem Bett.
> Ich liege auf dem Bett (not inevitably sleeping but eventually with my headset on to listen to my favourite CD).
> 
> "Ich schlafe auf dem Bett" may indeed has the connotation without being covered with a blanket, perhaps for a quick nap. But referring to your regular sleep during nighttime you will usually hear "Ich schlafe im Bett", in winter as well as in summer.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Ralf


Ralf, a couple suggestions:

Sleeping in your bed usually means you are lying on it, no matter *what* the season.

Ich liege auf dem Bett (not necessarily sleeping but eventually with my headset on to listen to my favourite CD).

I understand the German. Are you saying this?

…planning to go to sleep, although not yet, with my headphones on on to listen to my favourite CD.

Your English sentence there was a bit confusing.

"Ich schlafe auf dem Bett" may indeed have the connotation of not being covered with a blanket, perhaps for a quick nap. 

The rest is fine, and I will try to understand more about the general rules you showed tomorrow, when I am not as tired and irritated. (Long day…) 

Gaer


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## Ralf

gaer said:
			
		

> ...I understand why it is "auf DER Strasse sein". No movement. But why "auf DER Strasse fahren"?
> 
> And the restaurant is "IN" the street. Now, I know Ralf posted help on this subject, and I'm about to read it, but this gives me a freaking HEADACHE. I truly HATE this part of German, and it is the largest reason why I won't write it. <gggrrr>
> 
> Gaer (equally frustrated by German prepositions!)


Hello gaer,

I am aware this is difficult to understand, but it is difficult to explain either. Let me try this: 

(1) A road is a solidified or paved area of ground usually of linear extension (lined by curbs, walkways, fences, shoulders, walls ...). Its purpose is to facilitate traffic and transportation, which normally take place *on top/on the surface* of a road. Therefore all activities within the paved area are referred to as "auf der Straße" in German (= feminine noun).

(2) For purposes of orientation a road defines a larger space consisting of the paved way itself as well as of the adjacent premises, properties or precincts. Any specific location *within* this area may be referred to as "in der Straße" in German. Please note: *may!* It is also correct to say:
"Das Restaurant in der XXX-Straße"
"Das Restaurant auf der XXX-Straße"
"Das Restaurant an der XXX-Straße" (related to the farther proximity)

I hope this is not too confusing.

Ralf


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## gaer

Ralf said:
			
		

> Hello gaer,
> 
> I am aware this is difficult to understand, but it is difficult to explain either. Let me try this:
> 
> (1) A road is a solidified or paved area of ground usually of linear extension (lined by curbs, walkways, fences, shoulders, walls ...). Its purpose is to facilitate traffic and transportation, which normally take place *on top/on the surface* of a road. Therefore all activities within the paved area are referred to as "auf der Straße" in German (= feminine noun).
> 
> (2) For purposes of orientation a road defines a larger space consisting of the paved way itself as well as of the adjacent premises, properties or precincts. Any specific location *within* this area may be referred to as "in der Straße" in German. Please note: *may!* It is also correct to say:
> "Das Restaurant in der XXX-Straße"
> "Das Restaurant auf der XXX-Straße"
> "Das Restaurant an der XXX-Straße" (related to the farther proximity)
> 
> I hope this is not too confusing.
> 
> Ralf


You are talking about my Achilles Heel here!

So "go slow with me" here. 

First these:

"Das Restaurant in der XXX-Straße"
"Das Restaurant auf der XXX-Straße"
"Das Restaurant an der XXX-Straße" (related to the farther proximity)

The problem, if you can relate to it, is that all these look fine to me! I want German to be simple. I want there to be one and one answer only. Of course that is ridiculous. Languages don't work that way. If only languages could be analyzed with "A^2 + B^2= C^2. But then translation problem would work, and all know they don't.

Now, since I don't even have the money to travel to Central Florida, I won't be talking about restaurants. But it's still nice to know that I can pick one all three of these and have some chance of being right.

But my specific problem had to do with "auf der Straße fahren". In this case, there is some kind of rule, I think, which I once knew. It might have to do with the idea that if you are in a vehicle, you are not considered to be moving, hence dative. There are a set of dative only prepositions, and those are easier for me. There are also some that only take genitive, I believe. I was very good at these things in class, always nailing them, but I had no chance to practice afterwards. I would have continued class forever, no exaggeration or not much, but there was only one year offered. Consider this my "second chance", which is why I am full of questions. Before this there was no one to answer them. 

As always, many thanks!

Gaer


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## gaer

Ralf, 

Before I get too tired or too spaced-out, let me see if I can ask some intelligent questions:

I understand this:

- Die Kinder spielen auf der Straße

There is no movement, dative…

- Autos fahren auf der Straße

You may have answered this by the time I post this. Is this dative because people are in a vehicle and therefore not moving?

- Ich wohne an einer Hauptstraße - referring to a specific category of roads

This is like living ON a main street. We live on a main street by the way.

- Ich wohne auf der Haptstraße - here "Hauptstraße" is actually the name of the road where my home is located

Here it is the same. We live on SW 1st Court. Our preposition does not change.

- Wir gehen über die Straße
- Die Brücke führt über die Straße

These make sense because there is movement, at least figurately in the second case.

- Nach 200m fahre ich in die Seitenstraße - turning into a road

We say that we turn INTO a side-street. So it at least makes sense.

- Da vorn ist ein Schlagloch in der Straße - There is a pothole in (the surface of) the road ahead

That is the same as in English. There is a pothole IN the road ahead.

Now, what about going to bed. I seem to remember this:

Ich gehe ins Bett. Have I remembered incorrectly? We say "go TO bed".

Well, this made a bit more sense after I got some sleep. 

Many thanks,

Gaer


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## Ralf

Hello gaer, just having lost another battle against the snow outside I'm going to have some fun here in WRF. As for your your questions: 
_- Die Kinder spielen auf der Straße_

_There is no movement, dative…_

_- Autos fahren auf der Straße_

_You may have answered this by the time I post this. Is this dative because people are in a vehicle and therefore not moving?_

I don't think that this has anything to do with motion at all. Consider these people in their car: "Sie sitzen im Auto" or "Sie sitzen in dem Auto" - dative, too. On the other hand we find the dative also when referring to movement: "Ich laufe auf der Straße" or "Ich fahre mit dem Fahrrad auf der Straße". In my opinion what matters here is that you are (or better I am-to stick to my examples) on the road physically-neither in one of the buildings next to it nor in the adjacent properties but simply on the road. Well, there is no other choice for a native German but to say so, therefore I didn't bother to think about that or to find out some logical rules before . Maybe there are better ways and examples to explain, but I actually can't think of any at present.

...

_Ich gehe ins Bett. Have I remembered incorrectly? We say "go TO bed"._

This is correct. "Ich gehe ins Bett" or "Ich gehe in das Bett"
I think now I can see your point about the movement above. "Ich gehe ins Bett" refers to the destination of a current movement and answers the possible question "Wohin gehst du?" - accusative. The preposition "in" is used when the destination of the movement is located inside an enclosed area. (I hope this is somehow understandable). A few examples for illustration:

neutral nouns
*Wohin? *Ich gehe in das Bett. - *Wo? *Ich liege/schlafe/bin im Bett.
*Wohin? *Ich steige in das Auto. - *Wo? *Ich sitze/fahre im Auto.
*Wohin? *Ich gehe in das Haus. - *Wo? *Ich bin/arbeite im Haus.

feminine nouns
*Wohin? *Ich gehe in die Bibliothek. - *Wo? *Ich lese/arbeite/lerne/bin in der Bibliothek.
*Wohin? *Ich fahre in die Garage. - *Wo? *Ich bin/fahre/parke in der Garage.
*Wohin? *Ich gehe in die Empfangshalle. (lobby) - *Wo? *Ich bin/sitze/laufe/treffe mich mit Herrn A. in der Empfangshalle.

masculine nouns
*Wohin? *Ich fahre in den Tunnel. - *Wo? *Ich bin/fahre/habe eine Panne im Tunnel.
*Wohin? *Ich gehe in den Keller. - *Wo? *Ich bin im Keller.
*Wohin? *Ich gehe/muss/komme in den Knast. (colloquial: jail) - *Wo? *Ich bin/sitze im Knast. (colloquial: doing time in prison/jail/penitentiary)

In addition to this, a few examples for locations you can get on(to):

neutral nouns
*Wohin? *Ich steige auf das Dach. - *Wo?* Ich sitze auf dem Dach.
*Wohin? *Ich lege meine Jacke auf das Bett. - *Wo? *Meine Jacke liegt auf dem Bett.
*Wohin? *Ich steige/setze mich auf das Fahrrad. - *Wo? *Ich sitze/fahre auf dem Fahrrad. (also possible: Ich fahre mit dem Fahrrad.)

feminine nouns
*Wohin? *Ich gehe auf die Straße. - *Wo? *Ich laufe/stehe/spiele auf der Straße.
*Wohin? *Ich gehe/fahre auf die Brücke. _(I am on the acces ramp or a few steps away from the bridge.)_ - *Wo? *Ich stehe/laufe/fahre auf der Brücke. _(Now I'm aon the bridge.)_
*Wohin?* Die Kinder laufen auf die Wiese. (They are heading for the meadow but are still on the path.) - *Wo? *Die Kinder spielen/laufen auf der Wiese.

masculine nouns
*Wohin? *Ich lege das Buch auf den Tisch. - *Wo? *Das Buch liegt auf dem Tisch.
*Wohin? *Ich setze mich auf den Stuhl. - *Wo? *Ich sitze auf dem Stuhl.
*Wohin? *Ich steige/klettere auf den Berg. - *Wo? *Ich stehe/sitze/bin auf dem Berg.

I hope it is not too confusing to know that you can also say: "Ich gehe zu Bett." (Also dann, gute Nacht, gaer )

Ralf


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Ich gehe ins Bett. Have I remembered incorrectly? We say "go TO bed".



I once saw "I go abed" used. Is it correct or familiar? And the same goes for "I'm abed."


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## gaer

Hi Ralf,

There are a couple things like this that I think you may have copied without editing:

_Ich bin/fahre/habe eine Panne im Tunnel._

I think you were combining two ideas here. But I'm not sure.

Wouldn't this be correct?

_Ich bin im Tunnel._
_Ich bin habe eine Panne im Tunnel._
_Ich fahre in den Tunnel._
===================
About these examples you gave:

The problem is that German defines motion in a different way than English. Let me explain my thinking, and you can warn me if I am "off the track".

"In, auf" belongs to a tricky group of prepositions that can be used with either accusative or dative. So what seems to give clues to poor "foreigners" like me is the verb. If is clear that there is no motion, there is no problem. Use dative.

If it is clear that there IS movement, there also is no problem. Use accusative.

[The gender of the noun is not a problem, although it may cause problems for other people.]

Let's start with those that are self-evident to me. I'll mark them blue:

Ich gehe in die Empfangshalle. [movement]
Ich gehe in das Haus. [movement]
Ich gehe in die Bibliothek. [movement]
Ich gehe ins Bett. [movement]
Ich gehe in die Empfangshalle. [movement]
Ich gehe in den Keller. [movement]
Ich gehe/muss/komme in den Knast. [movement]
Ich springe in das Wasser. [movement]
Ich steige auf das Dach.  [movement]
Ich steige/klettere auf den Berg. [movement]
Ich lege meine Jacke auf das Bett. [movement]
Ich lege das Buch auf den Tisch. [movement]

Ich sitze auf dem Dach. [no movement]
Ich sitze im Auto. [no movement]
Ich bin in der Garage. [no movement]
Ich stehe/sitze/bin auf dem Berg. [no movement]
Meine Jacke liegt auf dem Bett. [no movement]
Ich sitze auf dem Fahrrad. [no movement]
Ich sitze auf dem Stuhl. [no movement]
Das Buch liegt auf dem Tisch. [no movement]
Ich bin/sitze/treffe mich mit Herrn A. in der Empfangshalle. [no movement]

Ich steige auf das Fahrrad. [movement]

Now, the problems. I don't believe "Straße" is the source of confusion here. Let me see if I can explain.

Ich fahre in den Tunnel 
Ich fahre in die Garage
Autos fahren auf der Straße
Ich fahre im Auto.
Ich fahre mit dem Fahrrad auf der Straße
Autos fahren auf der Straße

In English, we consider a car moving. So it doesn't matter if it is moving "on the street", which for use would be "along". The car is moving from point A to point B. Same with your motorcycle example. Someone is moving. But you look at this as not going anywhere, so you use dative.

You only consider it motion if you are entering something (tunnel, garage), or something different is happening. Then you use accusative.

Ich schwimme im Wasser

Same thing. There is motion. To us it doesn't matter if you are swimming across a lake or just paddling around. If you are swimming, you are going someplace. If you are not, you are "treading water". Or floating. But in German it must be dative.

Ich laufe auf der Straße

Same thing. You aren't standing still. If you're walking, you are moving someplace. Unless you are walking back and forth, you are walking from point A to point B. So if you are IN something (like water), even if you are doing something, it uses dative. If you are driving on a road, it is dative.

Here's another problem, but if I have reasoned correctly, I may have it right:

_Ich gehe auf _*dem *_Teppich._


But this one was on a page that also had the answer: _Ich gehe auf _*den *_Teppich._

This was HARD. <whew>

Gaer


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## Ralf

Hello gaer, it is my impression you understood perfectly what I tried to explain in my previous post. However, this is probably rather because of your knowledge of German than of my explanatory skills. Just a few comments:





			
				gaer said:
			
		

> ... Wouldn't this be correct?
> 
> _Ich bin im Tunnel._
> _Ich bin habe eine Panne im Tunnel._
> _Ich fahre in de*m* Tunnel. - *or: Ich fahre im Tunnel (bspw. mit angeschaltetem Licht oder mit verringerter Geschwindigkeit).*_
> ===================


I was indeed offering three posslible examples separated by strokes, which would require the dative case. Therefore I corrected your third suggestion since it would refer to the mere act of entering the tunnel (=accusative case) while my original example as well as the correction above was to demonstrate that the act of moving within (or inside?) a tunnel would require the dative either: "The car drives/rides(?) in the tunnel (e. g. with the lights on or with reduced speed)."





> "In, auf" belongs to a tricky group of prepositions that can be used with either accusative or dative. So what seems to give clues to poor "foreigners" like me is the verb. If is clear that there is no motion, there is no problem. Use dative.
> 
> If it is clear that there IS movement, there also is no problem. Use accusative.


This is absolutely correct and might therefore be taken as a general rule.





> Let's start with those that are self-evident to me. I'll mark them blue:


Ich gehe in die Empfangshalle. [movement] 
..... _(There's no need to quote the following examples again since all of them are correct.)_
... Ich lege das Buch auf den Tisch. [movement]
*All of these movements are referring to the mere act of entering the object =accusative.*


Ich sitze auf dem Dach. [no movement] - *But*: Der Dachdecker läuft auf dem Dach [movement]
Ich sitze im Auto. [no movement] - *But*: Die Kinder tollen im Auto herum [surely much to their parents annoyance, however--movement]
Ich bin in der Garage. [no movement] - *But*: Ich fahre in der Garage gegen einen Betonpfeiler [movement, although interrupted all of a sudden ]
Ich stehe/sitze/bin auf dem Berg. [no movement] - *But*: Ich laufe auf dem Berg dreimal um das Gipfelkreuz und pflücke dann ein Edelweiß. [movement]
Meine Jacke liegt auf dem Bett. [no movement] - *But*: Mein Hamster spielt (mit der Jacke) auf dem Bett. [movement]
Ich sitze auf dem Fahrrad. [no movement] - *But*: Der Artist macht einen Handstand auf dem Fahrrad [movement] 
Ich sitze auf dem Stuhl. [no movement] - *But*: Der junge zappelt ungeduldig auf seinem Stuhl. [The boy is fidgeting impatiently on the chair--movement]
Das Buch liegt auf dem Tisch. [no movement] - *But*: Der (verschüttete) Kaffee verteilt sich auf dem Tisch [however awkward--but movement]
Ich bin/sitze/treffe mich mit Herrn A. in der Empfangshalle. [no movement] - *But*: Nach dem treffen tanzen wir noch in der Empfangshalle [movement]

*Pleas note:* All of these movements are taking place *after* entering the object =dative.


Ich fahre in den Tunnel - entering the tunnel--accusative
Ich fahre in die Garage - entering the garage/car park--accusative

Autos fahren auf der Straße - movement after entering the road--dative

Ich fahre im Auto. - no movement--dative

Ich fahre mit dem Fahrrad auf der Straße - movement after entering the road--dative


> Here's another problem, but if I have reasoned correctly, I may have it right:


_Ich gehe auf _*dem *_Teppich. -movement after entering the carpet--dative_


But this one was on a page that also had the answer: _Ich gehe auf _*den *_Teppich. __- movement of entering the carpet_


> This was HARD. <whew>


I agree. 

Ralf


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## Whodunit

Ralf said:
			
		

> ... Wouldn't this be correct?
> 
> Ich bin im Tunnel.
> Ich bin habe eine Panne im Tunnel.
> Ich fahre in de*m* Tunnel. - *or: Ich fahre im Tunnel (bspw. mit angeschaltetem Licht oder mit verringerter Geschwindigkeit).*



Why did you replace the n? It's correct to say "Ich fahre in den Tunnel" (meaning: into). Or did I miss something?


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## Ralf

whodunit said:
			
		

> Why did you replac*e* the n? It's correct to say I*ch* fahre in den Tunnel (meaning: into). Or did I miss something?


As quoted later in my previous post this example was to demonstrate the use of the dative case by emphasizing movement *in* the tunnel *after* driving *into* it. Therefore I replaced the 'in' since it refers to 'entering the tunnel' as you correctly put it. 

Ralf


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## Whodunit

Oh, what embarrassing mistakes! Thanks for correcting and enlightening me.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> I once saw "I go abed" used. Is it correct or familiar? And the same goes for "I'm abed."


 
I've never seen "abed". I suspect it is archaic. Do you remember where you saw it?


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I've never seen "abed". I suspect it is archaic. Do you remember where you saw it?



E.g. here and in my dictionary.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> E.g. here and in my dictionary.


 
"abed was not found in the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary"

This does not mean it does not exist, or that it is not a proper word. MW lists and gives no warning about it being archaic. But trust me. If you use this word in general conversation in English, people are going to give you some weird looks. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> "abed was not found in the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary"
> 
> This does not mean it does not exist, or that it is not a proper word. MW lists and gives no warning about it being archaic. But trust me. If you use this word in general conversation in English, people are going to give you some weird looks.
> 
> Gaer



Thank you for this "warning", I'll never use it any more. You could ask in the Leo Forum about it or I can do it in the English Only Forum.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Thank you for this "warning", I'll never use it any more. You could ask in the Leo Forum about it or I can do it in the English Only Forum.


I would recommend that you ask about it in the English forum. I may do it myself. It's always wisest to ask. We may find out that it IS used in some region. I doubt it though.

Strangely, there were three entries in Leo, and one said "archaic".

http://dict.leo.org/?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&relink=on&sectHdr=on&spellToler=std&search=abed

One entry is a duplicate and should be removed. The other needs archaic added. But now you know what you have to go through to get anything changed there. 

Gaer


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## gaer

Who, I asked a question about "abed". Now we have to wait to see what others say!


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I would recommend that you ask about it in the English forum. I may do it myself. It's always wisest to ask. We may find out that it IS used in some region. I doubt it though.
> 
> Strangely, there were three entries in Leo, and one said "archaic".
> 
> http://dict.leo.org/?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&relink=on&sectHdr=on&spellToler=std&search=abed
> 
> One entry is a duplicate and should be removed. The other needs archaic added. But now you know what you have to go through to get anything changed there.
> 
> Gaer
> 
> Who, I asked a question about "abed". Now we have to wait to see what others say!



Thank you for asking, otherwise I would have done it myself. Well, my dictionary doesn't say anything about "archaic", only "adverb". Here I googled in English and you can see 233,000 results.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Thank you for asking, otherwise I would have done it myself. Well, my dictionary doesn't say anything about "archaic", only "adverb". Here I googled in English and you can see 233,000 results.


That's weird, truly weird. If you check the thread I started, at least before I left for work, it seems that other people also thought it was archaic.

Try this:

Results 1 - 10 of about 57 for "I am abed"
Results 1 - 10 of about 53,700 for "I am in bed"

I would ask someone like Benji though. It may be less rare in the UK. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> That's weird, truly weird. If you check the thread I started, at least before I left for work, it seems that other people also thought it was archaic.
> 
> Try this:
> 
> Results 1 - 10 of about 57 for "I am abed"
> Results 1 - 10 of about 53,700 for "I am in bed"
> 
> I would ask someone like Benji though. It may be less rare in the UK.
> 
> Gaer



Thanks for the sources; I'm gonna check your thread.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Thanks for the sources; I'm gonna check your thread.


People are still posting there. It looks interesting.


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> People are still posting there. It looks interesting.



I've already seen it. Me (is 'I' grammatically better?) included?


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> I've already seen it. Me (is 'I' grammatically better?) included?


That's awkward.

Me included is informal for "including me". You can't use "I". But I think you want to say that you've looked at it and that you are included in the posting.

I'd say, I've looked at it and I'm also part of it (the discussion).

Does that help?


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> That's awkward.
> 
> Me included is informal for "including me". You can't use "I". But I think you want to say that you've looked at it and that you are included in the posting.
> 
> I'd say, I've looked at it and I'm also part of it (the discussion).
> 
> Does that help?



Firstly, that does help.

Secondly, couldn't I say "... and I was also partaking of it."?


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Firstly, that does help.
> 
> Secondly, couldn't I say "... and I was also partaking of it."?


 
"partaking of it" sounds VERY strange.

See if this helps:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=partake&x=16&y=14

I never use "partake" myself. I always say "take part". Once again, you have brought up a good point for the English forum. 

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> "partaking of it" sounds VERY strange.
> 
> See if this helps:
> 
> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=partake&x=16&y=14
> 
> I never use "partake" myself. I always say "take part". Once again, you have brought up a good point for the English forum.
> 
> Gaer



I heard this in a song by Alanis Morissette. She once sang "partaking", and I didn't know if it is still used. We can ask in the English Forum, but I'm afraid not sooner than tomorrow.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> I heard this in a song by Alanis Morissette. She once sang "partaking", and I didn't know if it is still used. We can ask in the English Forum, but I'm afraid not sooner than tomorrow.


One person reported using "abed". So although the majority of people don't seem to use it, apparently it is NOT archaic. 

For this reason I think you should check out any answer I give you about usage in the English forum, because there you get answer from round the world. 

G


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> One person reported using "abed". So although the majority of people don't seem to use it, apparently it is NOT archaic.
> 
> For this reason I think you should check out any answer I give you about usage in the English forum, because there you get answer from round the world.
> 
> G



Yes, if _you_ didn't do it yet, I'll do it in the next time.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Yes, if _you_ didn't do it yet, I'll do it in the next time.


I didn't start any threads in English. I'm a bit busy myself right now, and my right hand is also sore from too much typing.


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I didn't start any threads in English. I'm a bit busy myself right now, and my right hand is also sore from too much typing.



Oh, I feel sorry for you ...   
If I'll get more time, I will start one.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Oh, I feel sorry for you ...
> If I'll get more time, I will start one.


I will try to start a couple after work…

G


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## Whodunit

Now I was really unable to start one, because I'm actually ill, and it's even hard for me to answer your questions in the German forum.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> Now I was really unable to start one, because I'm actually ill, and it's even hard for me to answer your questions in the German forum.


I have told very few people about this, but I've been sick for more than two weeks. Do you have the flu, or a bad cold?

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> I have told very few people about this, but I've been sick for more than two weeks. Do you have the flu, or a bad cold?
> 
> Gaer



I don't know yet. Maybe a simple flu or any kind of tonsillitis. In a few days, I think I'll be capable of starting a new thread for this topic.


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## gaer

whodunit said:
			
		

> I don't know yet. Maybe a simple flu or any kind of tonsillitis. In a few days, I think I'll be capable of starting a new thread for this topic.


Don't worry about anything. Just get better! Believe me, EVERYONE has been sick here. It's been like an epidemic of cold-flu-stomach viruses, you name it. 

I wish you a speedy recovery!

Gaer


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## Whodunit

gaer said:
			
		

> Don't worry about anything. Just get better! Believe me, EVERYONE has been sick here. It's been like an epidemic of cold-flu-stomach viruses, you name it.
> 
> I wish you a speedy recovery!
> 
> Gaer



Thank you. Are _you_ healthy again?


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