# Urdu / Hindi: Aap + verb stem + e(n)



## lcfatima

In Pakistani Urdu with speakers who are not influenced by Punjabi*, one usually hears the polite imperative construction of Aap plus verb stem plus e(n)

As in "aap please jawaab de(n)" or "aap idher baith jaye(n)

instead of dijieye or jaiye

I am curious to know if this is done regularly in Hindi dialects as well.

*Under Punjabi influence, I generally hear aap + ho imperative constructions in place of this e(n) one, I heard this a lot in India as well.


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## francois_auffret

This is a relevant remark... I also noticed that in Pakistan people would use this Karein forms (subjunctive) rather than - kijiye....

And yes, Punjabi speakers would use karo... (replacing tusi by aap!!)...

I think these -ein forms are a mark of politeness characteristic of the Urdu rules of aadaab, and not so developped in Hindi...


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## panjabigator

francois_auffret said:


> This is a relevant remark... I also noticed that in Pakistan people would use this Karein forms (subjunctive) rather than - kijiye....
> 
> And yes, Punjabi speakers would use karo... (replacing tusi by aap!!)...
> 
> I think these -ein forms are a mark of politeness characteristic of the Urdu rules of aadaab, and not so developped in Hindi...



I agree.  Snell lists them as correct but they still seem to be preferential in Urdu.  Perhaps this is a stylistic difference between Urdu and Hindi.

Panjabi doesn't have this polite subjunctive form.  Or maybe it does, but just happens to be indistinguishable from the command.

Aap yeh kare.n --tusii.n eh karo
Aap yeh kijiie -- tusii.n eh karo


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## panjabigator

Illuminatus, could you speak to <kare.n> versus <kijiie> in Hindi?


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## lcfatima

I also wanted to know if as children during Urdu class, native Urdu speakers are taught kijiye or kare(n) in Pakistan.


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## Illuminatus

The <kijiye> form is of course the standard taught form, but the other one doesn't sound unnatural to me and I've heard it often.

Technically, it is subjunctive. _Main chahta hoon ki aap yeh *karein*/I want that you *do* it/Je veux que vous le *faissiez*. _

But I guess that it is used as a more _respectful _form.


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## lcfatima

Illuminatus: I didn't realize that this form was used by Hindi speakers as well. It is something I always associated with Urdu. 

So is BaiThe(n) more polite than BaiThiega?

I always feared using this subjective as imperitave when out and about shopping in Dubai where most of the shop keepers are Hindi rather than Urdu speakers and I didn't want them to think I was saying "de" or "le" instead of "de(N)" or "le(N)," so I usuailly stick to "do" or "lo" or sometimes dijiye if it is a more formal context with Hindi speakers. 

I would say that outside of Punjab, with native Urdu speakers, this subjective as imperative is the tense of choice.


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## Illuminatus

It is _subjunctive_, not subjective.

I won't say Hindi speakers often use it. But, I have heard it often enough for it to not sound unnatural.

I never use this form and nobody I know uses it frequently. But, I guess people don't choose to use this over the standard form. It just comes naturally to them, just as the standard one comes naturally to me.

Speakers of English often find the nasalization at the end hard to pronounce, so your fear is justified!


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## lcfatima

Oh, oops, how embarrassing. I am typing on my way out the door, and didn't even notice that I wrote that...

My accent is pretty good for a pardesi, but I do forget to nasalize sometimes in daily speech. Never with that _subjunctive,_ though.


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## Illuminatus

I guess your mother tongue is English from both sides of the family?


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## BP.

@Icf:
" So is BaiThe(n) more polite than BaiThiega?"
and
" I would say that outside of Punjab, with native Urdu speakers, this subjective as imperative is the tense of choice."

The -_ain_ ending is a notch *less* formal/respectful, contrary to what you thought, and hence the 
conjugation of choice for most situations for many people. I think we discussed this earlier. Look it up. I think Faylasoof gave a detailed explanation that you'd find useful.

@Illum,
"_Je veux que vous le *faissiez*_"
fassiez not faissiez biraadar.

_Waisay_, I don't think that_ maiN yeh chaahooN ga keh aap yeh na *keejiyay*_ is wrong.


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## panjabigator

I feel like I hear the subjunctive version much more than command version from Urdu speakers.

One time my mother did reprimand me because she thought I said <de> and said it should be <do>!  Panjabi influence, of course.


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## lcfatima

BP: Do you know if in Pakistan Urdu speaking children are taught the "kare(N) as a choice of imperative in school?

Illuminatus: Yes both of my parents are foreigners.


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## Illuminatus

@Illum,
"_Je veux que vous le *faissiez*_"
fassiez not faissiez biraadar.

_Waisay_, I don't think that_ maiN yeh chaahooN ga keh aap yeh na *keejiyay*_ is wrong.


Typo, sorry.

I won't venture to say it is grammatically incorrect because I am not sure of that, but I find it unnatural.


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## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> In Pakistani Urdu with speakers who are not influenced by Punjabi*, one usually hears the polite imperative construction of Aap plus verb stem plus e(n)
> 
> As in "aap please jawaab de(n)" or "aap idher baith jaye(n)
> 
> instead of dijieye or jaiye
> 
> I am curious to know if this is done regularly in Hindi dialects as well.
> 
> *Under Punjabi influence, I generally hear aap + ho imperative constructions in place of this e(n) one, I heard this a lot in India as well.






Qureshpor said:


> In the book entitled, "The Modern Hindustani Scholar or The Pucca Munshi" by Munshi Thakardass Pahwa" published in 1919 on page 194 the author says..
> 
> "Note- Occasionally in Delhi it is given the declension of the second person, plural, but this is not so elegant. For instance they say, "aap kahaaN jaa,oge" instead of "aap kahaaN jaa,eNge" for "Where will you go, Sir".
> 
> The author, from what I can gather was himself from Jhelum, Punjab. If this form was known in the Punjab in his time, he would not have singled out Delhi. At least this is how I understand it.


"aap aNgrezii paRhte haiN..aap geNd-ballaa khelte haiN.

aise jumloN meN lafz "haiN" kii ba-jaa'e lafz "ho" bolnaa bi_lkul Ghalat hai. aise mauqa3 par fi3l amr kaa saHiiH isti3maal mundarajah-i-zail jumloN se zaahir hai.

tum yahiiN baiTho, aap yahiiN baiTheN yaa baiThiye yaa baiThiye gaa. lekin "aap yahiiN baiTho" kahnaa Ghalat hai."

Professor Anand Naath Verma, MA (Hindu College Delhi). The book is called "Nikaat-i-Anand ma3roof bah Urdu kii islaaH" 9th June 1941.


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## Dib

My observations about imperative (aap) baiTho/baiTheN/baiTHiye/baiThiyegaa in Indian colloquial Hindi:

1. aap baiTho -> Widespread. Felt to be friendly yet formal. More common towards the Western parts, e.g. Delhi than in the East, e.g. in Bihar.
2. aap baiTheN -> Widely understood, but I don't think it is widely actively used. Not sure about the regional distribution, but I think not so common in the East.
3. aap baiThiye -> Widespread. Formal and respectful. Somewhat more common in the East than in the West (which also has form 1 commonly).
*EDIT*: I am not totally sure, but I think this form is not used in Haryana.
4. aap baiThiyegaa -> Widely understood. Formal and respectful, but with a lopsided Eastern distribution. Very common in Bihar, but almost unheard in Delhi. It may additionally imply a future imperative, rather than a present imperative implied by the other 3 forms. Colloquial Western Hindi often expresses this sense as "aap baiThnaa". Corresponding Haryanvi tuu-form is "tuu baiThiyo" - not sure if there is an aap-form.


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## Qureshpor

lcfatima said:


> In Pakistani Urdu with speakers who are not influenced by Punjabi*, one usually hears the polite imperative construction of Aap plus verb stem plus e(n)
> 
> As in "aap please jawaab de(n)" or "aap idher baith jaye(n)
> 
> instead of dijieye or jaiye[...]


Professor C.M Naim in his "Introductory Urdu" Volume 1, University of Chicago 1999 in Section 94 on imperatives has this to say.

"To sum up, we list below the various imperative forms of the verb/jaanaa/, "to go", in their order of increasing politeness together with the relevant second person pronominal forms.

tuu jaa, tum jaaoo, tum jaanaa, aap jaaeeN, aap jaaiyee, aap jaa'iye gaa".

As I have indicated before he is from Barabanki in UP, India. So, speakers of Urdu in India also use the "aap ---eN" form. The author does not indicate any restrictions on this form. I personally do not apply such labels as Pakistani Urdu or Indian Urdu because there is no one Pakistani Urdu, neither is there one Indian Urdu.


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## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> I agree.  Snell lists them as correct but they still seem to be preferential in Urdu.  Perhaps this is a stylistic difference between Urdu and Hindi.
> 
> Panjabi doesn't have this polite subjunctive form.  Or maybe it does, but just happens to be indistinguishable from the command.
> 
> Aap yeh kare.n --tusii.n eh karo
> Aap yeh kijiie -- tusii.n eh karo


Punjabi does have a polite form and I use it all the time...

tuu kariiN.....tusiiN kariyo


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## panjabigator

I learned that form in 2009. I stand corrected! Not one I hear very often in my family, but I hear it now that I've learned it.



> Colloquial Western Hindi often expresses this sense as "aap baiThnaa". Corresponding Haryanvi tuu-form is "tuu baiThiyo" - not sure if there is an aap-form.



Dib Ji, this is very interesting. We've discussed this before, but I am very used to hearing "tu kariyo" from my mother. I'm told this is Haryanvi-ish.


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> As I have indicated before he is from Barabanki in UP, India. So, speakers of Urdu in India also use the "aap ---eN" form. The author does not indicate any restrictions on this form.



Does Prof. Naim usually explain language variations in his "Introductory Urdu"? I'd guess only advanced learners might be interested in such things. I don't know how often Urdu speakers in India use the aap ...-eN form, but I don't think Prof. Naim's non-statement can be taken as an evidence for/against that. His statement, on the other hand, is an evidence, that this form is considered part of standard Urdu grammar. Importantly, there are approximate replacements available within the standard grammar (aap ...-iye). So, it is not unthinkable that there might be two perfectly standard Urdu speakers, one using mostly -eN and the other mostly -iye. I find this part in the original post relevant:



> one usually hears the polite imperative construction of Aap plus verb stem plus e(n)
> 
> As in "aap please jawaab de(n)" or "aap idher baith jaye(n)
> 
> instead of dijieye or jaiye



If this is true, then this obviously is a case of skewed preference. Isn't it?


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## Dib

panjabigator said:


> ... I am very used to hearing "tu kariyo" from my mother. I'm told this is Haryanvi-ish.



Yup. As I mentioned above, I too think this is Haryana style.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> Does Prof. Naim usually explain language variations in his "Introductory Urdu"? I'd guess only advanced learners might be interested in such things. I don't know how often Urdu speakers in India use the aap ...-eN form, but I don't think Prof. Naim's non-statement can be taken as an evidence for/against that. His statement, on the other hand, is an evidence, that this form is considered part of standard Urdu grammar. Importantly, there are approximate replacements available within the standard grammar (aap ...-iye). So, it is not unthinkable that there might be two perfectly standard Urdu speakers, one using mostly -eN and the other mostly -iye. I find this part in the original post relevant:
> If this is true, then this obviously is a case of skewed preference. Isn't it?


I thought I had made my point quite clear. 

To reitterate, "aap -eN" is one of several forms used in the capacity of an imperative ranging from the simple root of the verb with tuu to root + iye + gaa with aap. There is no negativity of any sort attached to the "root + eN" form. Urdu speakers would use any of these forms depending on the situation. On top of that, I accept individual speakers may have their own preference. You and I might feel "aap baiTheN" is fine for our particular situation, another person may always go for "aap baiThiye" or "aap baiThiye gaa"..."aap tashriif rakhiye"..."aap tashriif rakhiye gaa".

And to answer your question, yes, he does go into grammatical vaiations not only within Urdu but brings in the Hindi comparison as well. No doubt, there will be plenty of "-eN" examples in his reading exercises which form part 2 of his book. 

According to "Baabaa-i-Urdu", Maulavii Abdul Haq...and I quote..

ba3z auqaat masdar bhii amr kaa kaam dtaa hai. is se maziid taakiid maqsuud hotii hai jaise "jaldii aanaa, kahiiN raste meN nah rah jaanaa". ziyaadah ta3ziim ke liye amr Ghaa'ib kaa siiGhah isti3maal karte haiN jaise "aap tashriif rakheN", "aap vahaaN nah jaa'iN". kabhii aur ziyaadah ta3ziim ke liye amr ke ba3d ye aur hamzah baRhaa deta haiN jaise, "aa'iye, khaa'iye" vaGhairah".

Maulavii Abdul Haq (1872-1961 born Hapur, UP)


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> Yup. As I mentioned above, I too think this is Haryana style.


I don't know about Haryanavi but are you sure "kariyo" goes with "tuu" and not "tussiN"?


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> Urdu speakers would use any of these forms depending on the situation. On top of that, I accept individual speakers may have their own preference. You and I might feel "aap baiTheN" is fine for our particular situation, another person may always go for "aap baiThiye" or "aap baiThiye gaa"..."aap tashriif rakhiye"..."aap tashriif rakhiye gaa".



My doubt is whether it purely depends on the situation. Whether the choice is not influenced by other factors, like social and regional backgrounds of the speaker. *lcfatima*'s original post and other responses suggest, those factors are relevant. Grammars and course books of standard Urdu may not discuss such variations, because the standard language is meant to mask those variations in the first place. But they are relevant in the context of the present thread. The questions in this thread were:

Is the preference between -o, -iye and -eN forms influenced by:
a) whether the speaker is from India or Pakistan?
b) the level of Punjabi influence on them?
c) whether it is an Urdu or a Hindi speaker?

All I am saying is that, personal observations from various members have suggested "yes" to a and b, and probably c. Prof Naim and Maulavii Abdul Haq are silent about it. In such a case, I don't think their silence can be interpreted to contradict the forum members' observations.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> My doubt is whether it purely depends on the situation. Whether the choice is not influenced by other factors, like social and regional backgrounds of the speaker. *lcfatima*'s original post and other responses suggest, those factors are relevant. Grammars and course books of standard Urdu may not discuss such variations, because the standard language is meant to mask those variations in the first place. But they are relevant in the context of the present thread. The questions in this thread were:
> 
> Is the preference between -o, -iye and -eN forms influenced by:
> a) whether the speaker is from India or Pakistan?
> b) the level of Punjabi influence on them?
> c) whether it is an Urdu or a Hindi speaker?
> 
> All I am saying is that, personal observations from various members have suggested "yes" to a and b, and probably c. Prof Naim and Maulavii Abdul Haq are silent about it. In such a case, I don't think their silence can be interpreted to contradict the forum members' observations.


Dib SaaHib, since the inception of this thread there have been other threads where yours truly and other friends have provided plenty of food for thought to people who have made unsubstantiated assertions regarding the springing up of "aap ho" and "maiN ne karnaa hai" forms under Punjabi influence. There is no need to repeat the same old things over over again. One such thread is..

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=888829&highlight=maine

A lot of the times people comment about Punjabi influence without knowing Punjabi. And this knowledge is helpful to work out whether these claims are logical or not.

a) No

b) None

c) I am not sure, but I don't think so

Have you read both C.M. Naim and Maulavi Abdul Haq's books? I believe they have made remarks on both these points.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> [...]
> *EDIT*: I am not totally sure, but I think this form is not used in Haryana.
> 4. aap baiThiyegaa -> Widely understood. Formal and respectful, but with a lopsided Eastern distribution. Very common in Bihar, but almost unheard in Delhi. It may additionally imply a future imperative, rather than a present imperative implied by the other 3 forms. Colloquial Western Hindi often expresses this sense as "aap baiThnaa". Corresponding Haryanvi tuu-form is "tuu baiThiyo" - not sure if there is an aap-form.


This is also the case for Urdu. At least it had a future connotation which is probably lost now.

"kabhii is suurat-i-ta3ziimii ke aaxir meN maziid ta3ziim ke liye "gaa" bhii baRhaa dete haiN. jaise "aaiye gaa", "farmaa'iye gaa", "kiijiye gaa" (yih dar Haqiiqat mustaqbil kii suurat hai)". (Maulavii Abdul Haq, Qavaa3id-i-Urdu 1914)


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## marrish

Hindi: 
नए उपयोगकर्ता यूज़र आईडी बनाने के लिए पासपोर्ट सेवा पोर्टल के माध्यम से रजिस्टर करें|(आवेदन के अंतर्गत "रजिस्टर" लिंक पर क्लिक करें|)
कदम ३ में बनाये गए यूज़र आईडी से लाँगिन करें| etc. etc.
Transliteration: 
_na'e upyog-kartaa user ID banaane ke lie paasporT seva porTal ke maadhyam se *rajisTar kareN*. (aavedan ke antargat ''rajisTar'' link par *klik kareN*.)
kadam 3 meN banaaye gae user ID se *login kareN*_
Source: Passport Seva,Consular, Passport & Visa Division, Ministry of External Affairs, Government of India
http://passportindia.gov.in/AppOnlineProject/online/procFormSubOnl


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## Chhaatr

Marrish SaaHib aap aaeN, baiTheN, chaae piieN.  aap is tarah ke vaakya Hindi bhaashiyoN se kam hii suneNge. saadhaaraNRtaha zyaadaatar log kaheNge: Marrish saahab aaiie, baiThie, chaae piijie.


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## marrish

Chhaatr SaaHib shukriyah. Urdu-goyaan bhii ma3muulan ziyaadah Chhaatr SaaHib aa'iye baiThiye chaa'e piijiye kaheN ge kyoN kih mihmaan ke saath yahii xitaab munaasib hae. yih ek mu'addabaanah guzaarish kaa ruup hotaa hae HaalaaNkih diigar Haalaat meN Urdu-go logoN ke paas mauq3e ke mutaabiq ziyaadah intixaab kii sahuulat maujuud hae: har suurat-e-Haal meN zaruurii nahiiN kih jo ham kisii se kahte haiN wuh ek mu'addabaanah guzaarish ho; kuchh Haalaat aise bhii hote haiN jab hameN kisii ke karne yaa nah karne se farq to nahiiN paRne waalaa hae phir bhii hamaaraa kisii ko hidaayat dene kaa maqsad hae. jaise uupar dii ga'ii Hindii kii misaal meN, wazaarat yih nahiiN kah rahii kih ''kripayaa klik kiijiye, kripayaa login kiijiye'' is liye kih yih ek guzaarish nahiiN, hidaayat hae. yuuN kahiye kih yih ''kripayaa chaa'e piijiye hameN bahut xushii ho gii'' ''aap ko form bharnaa hae to klik kareN, login kareN.'' kaa farq hae.


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## marrish

Dib said:


> My doubt is whether it purely depends on the situation. Whether the choice is not influenced by other factors, like social and regional backgrounds of the speaker. lcfatima's original post and other responses suggest, those factors are relevant. Grammars and course books of standard Urdu may not discuss such variations, because the standard language is meant to mask those variations in the first place. But they are relevant in the context of the present thread. The questions in this thread were:
> 
> Is the preference between -o, -iye and -eN forms influenced by:
> a) whether the speaker is from India or Pakistan?
> b) the level of Punjabi influence on them?
> c) whether it is an Urdu or a Hindi speaker?
> 
> All I am saying is that, personal observations from various members have suggested "yes" to a and b, and probably c. Prof Naim and Maulavii Abdul Haq are silent about it. In such a case, I don't think their silence can be interpreted to contradict the forum members' observations.


a) -o, although polite, depends on the speaker's manners and language awareness/training. -eN vs. -iye: both are used in India and in Pakistan. Every speaker - whether one uses more -eN or -iye, knows both of them. Which one is preferred - that is what we are trying to find out. So far we have got opinions about Hindi in the Indian context and Urdu (I can say I agree with CM Naim's description and I have read and heard Urdu speakers from India use -eN and -iye - both of them).
b) not relevant
c) possibly - according to Chhaatr SaaHib - yes.


marrish said:


> Hindi: नए उपयोगकर्ता यूज़र आईडी बनाने के लिए पासपोर्ट सेवा पोर्टल के माध्यम से रजिस्टर करें|(आवेदन के अंतर्गत "रजिस्टर" लिंक पर क्लिक करें|) कदम ३ में बनाये गए यूज़र आईडी से लाँगिन करें| etc. etc.


On hindsight I can see that this example is not self-evident as it starts with na'e upyog-kartaa (new users), not with _aap_. _na'e upyog-kartaa rajisTar kareN_. Let new users register/May the new users register (themselves).


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> Dib SaaHib, since the inception of this thread  there have been other threads where yours truly and other friends have  provided plenty of food for thought to people who have made  unsubstantiated assertions regarding the springing up of "aap ho" and  "maiN ne karnaa hai" forms under Punjabi influence.



Sorry  about that. I am learning slowly about the history of this forum. One  thing that I have learnt is that "purported Punjabi influences" on Urdu  are not kindly viewed. But now I understand that this sort of "bad-mouthing" is some of the baggage that comes with wide-spread language contact. It is actually happening in Bengali society too, as contacts with English and Hindi increase, though at a much smaller scale than the Punjabi-Urdu/Hindi situation, where some people love to blame Hindi and English influences for everything that they perceive as degradation in the "quality" (whatever that means) of Bengali.

I took some time to go through a couple of long  threads (maine and chahiye) following your leads. I see what you mean by  "unsubstantiated" assertions. I have myself wondered about the "maiN  ne" thingie before, as it is concentrated in the Hindi of North-Western  Hindi belt and Punjab in India, but doesn't seem to have a Punjabi  origin. I am still reading the very interesting paper you attached in  the maine thread. Thanks for that. I wish we could find a similar study of the "aap ho" form - or even better, the evolution of the very interesting word "aap" plus its grammar.



> a) No
> 
> b) None
> 
> c) I am not sure, but I don't think so



Thanks for your views.




> Have you read both C.M. Naim and Maulavi Abdul Haq's books? I believe they have made remarks on both these points.



Nope. Maybe I should have been clearer. I meant, the excerpts, you  quoted from their works, didn't shed any light on this purported  variation. In any case, of course, the burden of proof lies with those  who claim that there exists a variation. To me, however, it is  interesting that many people in this thread seem to have anecdotal  evidence of this variation (though, they may well be wrong about the  reasons, and even details of the regional/social distributions) but you  seem to have none (or did I misinterprete you?). Anyways, I don't think  we can reconcile it in a forum like this. This needs actual linguistic  field work.


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## Dib

marrish said:


> a) -o, although polite, depends on the speaker's manners and language awareness/training. -eN vs. -iye: both are used in India and in Pakistan. Every speaker - whether one uses more -eN or -iye, knows both of them. Which one is preferred - that is what we are trying to find out. So far we have got opinions about Hindi in the Indian context and Urdu (I can say I agree with CM Naim's description and I have read and heard Urdu speakers from India use -eN and -iye - both of them).
> b) not relevant
> c) possibly - according to Chhaatr SaaHib - yes.



Thank you, jee, for your detailed response. Btw, by "not relevant" do you mean, your response to (b) is "No", or do you mean that this question itself is not relevant?


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> Sorry  about that. I am learning slowly about the history of this forum. One  thing that I have learnt is that "purported Punjabi influences" on Urdu  are not kindly viewed....[...]


I hope there is no misunderstanding. From my personal perspective if something has a verifiable basis, then there is no problem whatsoever in my accepting it. For example, I know for a fact that Punjabis generally do not pronounce the ق correctly. This is a reality and there is no point denying it. I just feel that for all the "anomalies" , the centre of gravity seems to be Punjabi.* But I am not convinced for constructions such as "aap ho" and "maiN ne jaanaa hai" etc especially when for the latter there are two written examples (in the maine thread) from mother tongue speakers and plenty of examples of the spoken form from mother tongue speakers of both "aap ho" and "maiN ne jaanaa hai". For me the most convincing argument against these assertions is that Punjabi grammar does not "match up" with these formations. 

* How many other language communities within India and Pakistan pronounce the qaaf correctly? Does anyone mention that? How often have you heard that such and such an Urdu construction is due to Sindhi, Pashto, Gujarati, Bengali.....? You might also wish to take a look at a thread called "desideratives" and "Havas"...and this one.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1950498&highlight=kariye


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## panjabigator

We also had this thread too.


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> I hope there is no  misunderstanding. From my personal perspective if something has a  verifiable basis, then there is no problem whatsoever in my accepting  it. For example, I know for a fact that Punjabis generally do not  pronounce the ق correctly. This is a reality and there is no point  denying it.




I see what you mean.



> But I am  not convinced for constructions such as "aap ho" and "maiN ne jaanaa  hai" etc especially when for the latter there are two written examples  (in the maine thread) from mother tongue speakers and plenty of examples  of the spoken form from mother tongue speakers of both "aap ho" and  "maiN ne jaanaa hai".



While you are probably right in  your conclusion that these are not examples of Punjabi influence,  examples from contemporary "mother tongue" speakers are not good  evidence for that, if the influence was drawn a while ago. To take an  extreme example, think about the izaafaa construction in Urdu. It's certainly Persian, but everybody uses it.



> For  me the most convincing argument against these assertions is that  Punjabi grammar does not "match up" with these formations.



Certainly.



> How often have you heard that such and such an Urdu construction is due to Sindhi, Pashto, Gujarati, Bengali.....?



Almost never, but that may have to do with the widespread currency  of Urdu in Punjab as a language of culture. I don't know about Sindhi or  Pashto, but we do hear about influence of Telugu and Marathi on Dakhini  Urdu, and Bhojpuri and Magahi on Bihari Hindi though, and there may be  some variants in Gujarat too. I have seen Urdu signs and messages  written in Gujarati script in mosques in Ahmedabad, suggesting close  interaction between the two. In Bengal and many other places in India,  Hindi/Urdu traditionally had a very weak presence. So, this question  never came up, I suppose.


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## marrish

Dib said:


> Thank you, jee, for your detailed response. Btw, by "not relevant" do you mean, your response to (b) is "No", or do you mean that this question itself is not relevant?


You're welcome! Sorry for conciseness bordering incomprehensibility - I mean that it is not relevant as Punjabi language is concerned - that is there is no analogy between polite Urdu-Hindi _kareN_ and Punjabi. Perhaps some people who use this form are Punjabis themselves and Urdu or Hindi is their second language but in my opinion it doesn't change anything - _kareN, likheN, jaa'eN_ are correct Urdu/Hindi grammar formations and quite idiomatic.


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## Dib

marrish said:


> I mean that it is not relevant as Punjabi language is concerned - that is there is no analogy between polite Urdu-Hindi _kareN_ and Punjabi. Perhaps some people who use this form are Punjabis themselves and Urdu or Hindi is their second language but in my opinion it doesn't change anything - _kareN, likheN, jaa'eN_ are correct Urdu/Hindi grammar formations and quite idiomatic.



First of all, -eN forms are certainly perfectly grammatical, standard and idiomatic. I guess, there's no doubt about that. However, it would also be interesting to understand the distribution of actual occurrence of this form in comparison to other imperatives. Though you are again perfectly reasonable to point out that the kareN usage has nothing in common with Punjabi, some more complex interactions cannot be ruled out, e.g. is it possible that 1st/2nd language Punjabi speakers might disfavour -iye imperatives of Hindi-Urdu because of its formal similarity to Punjabi 1st person plural? I don't know the answer, but I suppose it is a relevant question to ask.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> First of all, -eN forms are certainly perfectly grammatical, standard and idiomatic. I guess, there's no doubt about that. However, it would also be interesting to understand the distribution of actual occurrence of this form in comparison to other imperatives. Though you are again perfectly reasonable to point out that the kareN usage has nothing in common with Punjabi, some more complex interactions cannot be ruled out, e.g. is it possible that 1st/2nd language Punjabi speakers might disfavour -iye imperatives of Hindi-Urdu because of its formal similarity to Punjabi 1st person plural? I don't know the answer, but I suppose it is a relevant question to ask.


I personally don't know how one can carry out a statistical analysis of "-eN" imperative in relationship to others based on data numbering half a dozen or so people's replies. I can't imagine Punjabi speakers consciously thinking about Punjabi subjunctive in the 1st person plural and then deciding....oh we better not use "kiijiye" "aa'iye"..."baiThiye" because it has some resemblance with our "kariye", "aa'iye" and "baviye"!


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## littlepond

Qureshpor said:


> I personally don't know how one can carry out a statistical analysis of "-eN" imperative in relationship to others based on data numbering half a dozen or so people's replies.



Isi liye to, Quresh jii, Dib jii ne apni post number ikattis mein kahaa thaa: "Anyways, I don't think  we can reconcile it in a forum like this. This needs actual linguistic  field work."


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## Dib

Qureshpor said:


> I personally don't know how one can carry out a statistical analysis of "-eN" imperative in relationship to others based on data numbering half a dozen or so people's replies.



Assuming that those half a dozen people have interacted with people from various backgrounds regularly, they would have an impression about the distribution of the variation,  if any, (that's how we learn to recognize accents, etc.). It's approximate, the impression will almost certainly be wrong in details, but if everybody _roughly_ agreed, that would support the presence of such a variation. With such a small sample size, as you rightly pointed out, even a single disagreement is, however, significant. In any case, accurate results can only be obtained from a proper fieldwork, as I mentioned in post #31, that littlepond quoted above.

*EDIT*: I was also hoping against hope, that someone might be aware of a relevant linguistic study already.



> I can't imagine Punjabi speakers consciously thinking about Punjabi subjunctive in the 1st person plural and then deciding....oh we better not use "kiijiye" "aa'iye"..."baiThiye" because it has some resemblance with our "kariye", "aa'iye" and "baviye"!



Thanks for your opinion.


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## Qureshpor

Dib said:


> My observations about imperative (aap) baiTho/baiTheN/baiTHiye/baiThiyegaa in Indian colloquial Hindi:
> 
> 1. aap baiTho -> Widespread. Felt to be friendly yet formal. More common towards the Western parts, e.g. Delhi than in the East, e.g. in Bihar.


This is confirmed by Munshi Thakardaas Pahwa.

In the book entitled, "The Modern Hindustani Scholar or The Pucca Munshi" by Munshi Thakardass Pahwa" published in 1919 in Jhelum, Punjab on page 194 the author says..

https://archive.org/details/modernhindustani00pahwuoft

"Note- Occasionally in Delhi it is given the declension of the second person, plural, but this is not so elegant. For instance they say, "aap kahaaN jaa,oge" instead of "aap kahaaN jaa,eNge" for "Where will you go, Sir".

If this phenomenon also existed in the Punjab, why would he single out Delhi?

Here is the late Dr Gyan Chand Jain taking about the "aap baiTho" phenomenon in as far flung a place as Bhopal.

"yahaaN ta3ziimii zamiir-e-Haazir* (3rd person honorific personal pronoun) "aap" ke saath fi3l* (verb) ke wuh SiiGhe*(endings) isti3maal karte haiN jo "tum" ke saath bole jaate haiN. masal_an:

aap aisaa karo bajaa'e aap aisaa kiijiye.
aap to khaanaa khaa'o bajaa'e aap to khaanaa khaa'iye."

I am indebted to Marrish SaaHib for this quote.


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