# Sir, madam and other courtesy conventions



## spatula

In British English, we very rarely address anyone as Sir or Madam, regardless of being in a situation which, you'd assume, might dictate a certain amount of politeness - for example when speaking to an elder (literal or figurative).

If anything, the time you're likely to hear it is when you have managed to annoy a shop assistant whose only course of redress, if they want to keep their job, is to use sarcasm.  In that instance I could well be called Madam, but it would not be said politely.  '_No, Madam, we will not give you a discount on these shoes.'_

I know that in the United States, Sir and Ma'am are very much alive and well.  What about elsewhere; do you save these terms for certain situations or are they in common, everyday use?


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## Frank78

A fellow forum member from Britain told me something completly different. He said he still uses Sir and Madam and expects to be addressed so by a stranger especially in "business" situations at shops, banks, etc.


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## cuchuflete

For more information about AE (American English) and BE (British English) and their respective uses of these terms, please have a look at these threads:

Dear Madam / Sir,
"sir" and "madam" in the UK
Sir and Mr / Madam and Mrs
address your teacher, Sir, Madam?


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## RaLo18

Addressing someone as sir (אדון, אדוני or מר in Hebrew) or madam (גברת or גברתי) isn't very common in Israel. It is mostly used when you're talking to someone whom you don't know or someone who holds an important position (אדוני הנשיא to address the president, for example).


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## sokol

It is very common to use "Herr" and "Frau" in German - but use differs significantly from the use in English.

English novelists still think*) that we say "Mein *Herr,* gehen Sie bitte zur Seite"; "Ach, mein *Herr,* ich weiss keinen Ausweg!": we don't, this use is dated. (Except for religious purposes: "Gelobt seist du, mein *Herr."*
*) Obviously they do because they keep attributing sentences like that to German protagonists of their novels.

But we still use "Herr/Frau" frequently with a name: *"Frau* Meier, könnten Sie mir das bitte erklären?" - this use is not dated at all.


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## Favara

It's still very common in Catalan to adress mid-aged and old strangers as _senyora _(fem.) or _cavaller _(masc., literally means "knight"). I'd say that _senyor _(masculine form of _senyora_) has almost disappeared except in religious texts (_el nostre senyor..._) and before a name (_el senyor Ripoll _=~ Mr. Ripoll).

There's also _mestre_, still used in the southern varieties (I don't know if it's used elsewhere) to ask for directions or to call the attention of a waiter in a restaurant. This word usually means "teacher" but in this context it's something more like "master".


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## oiseauxlahaut

I'm currently living in France and here it's very common to use Monsieur, Madame or Mademoiselle, especially when it's someone you don't know or want to show respect for.
Favara's post about mestre in Catalan reminded me that in English they also used to say "master", as well as "mistress"- for young unmarried people. They have completely different meanings now, though (heh if you read Great Expectations, Charles Dickens manages to slip in a dirty joke using "master" as a title for one of the characters).


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## Miguelillo 87

In Mexico we use _*señor,señora*_ and *señorita* a lot and almost for everybody u don't know or you want to give him/her some respect but it's so common, about *caballero* (gentleman) and _*dama*_ (lady or madame) those are rarely used, only in very luxorious restaurants or events maybe they will call you this way and only the people who serve. 

Maybe in some luxurios stores they will used it too but not too often it's sounds so...weird I think Selor or _*DON *_and_* DOÑA*_ it's more used. 

When you want to refer someone a place of respect wheter emotional or because financial stauts, Don it's more used.

Don Juan ¿Cómo está usted? or Don Carmelo y Doña Augusta aún no llegan.

It's more used in small villages but I've heard it a lot.


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## Kevin Beach

I remember noticing in Baltimore (the USA's northernmost southern city and its southernmost northern city) how most people used "Sir" and "Ma'am" to strangers in normal life. Shopkeepers to customers, and customers to shopkeepers. I was glad to see it between the races too. It reminded me of France, where Monsieur, Madame and Mademoiselle are still so common as a matter of instinct.

We are losing the habit in Britain, which is sad. Deliberate courtesy, falling far short of obsequiousness and not done hypocritically, is a good thing because it can act as a barrier to contempt and hostility.


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## federicoft

I'm not sure if the question is directed to other languages as well; anyway, as far as Italian is concerned, the equivalent terms for Sir (_signore_) and Ma'am (_signora_) are not just very common, but are in fact the only acceptable way to address strangers in everyday life.

A third form of address (_signorina_), which was used in the past for unmarried women has fallen into disuse since the 70s, and today it's considered almost completely obsolete in the name of gender equality.


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## JamesM

It's common enough in the U.S. that it's even used in situations where it might surprise others.  If someone is walking by and something slips out of his/her pocket, it would be second nature to say, "Excuse me, sir/ma'am... you dropped this."  "Madam" or "Madame" would be rare, in my experience, but "ma'am" is very common.


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## Revontuli

In Turkish we use "Beyefendi"(Sir), "Hanımefendi"(Madam) or "Efendim"(for both, neutral). They are very common but not always necessary. For example, using it like in James' example would sound too polite to me . Using the verb in third plural(the formal way of addressing) would be enough. But in restaurants, shops etc I wouldn't be surprised to hear that.


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## Nunty

RaLo18 said:


> Addressing someone as sir (אדון, אדוני or מר in Hebrew) or madam (גברת or גברתי) isn't very common in Israel. It is mostly used when you're talking to someone whom you don't know or someone who holds an important position (אדוני הנשיא to address the president, for example).



I wonder if I am quite a bit older than you, RaLo, or if it is different where you and I live. (I am in my 54 and live in Jerusalem.) It is quite normal for me to be addressed as גברת (madam, ma'am) in just about any situation where someone does not know my name. If you are a young man, I suppose other young men would call you אחי (my brother)?


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## RaLo18

I'm a young person indeed, but not the אחי kind of guy. I guess the difference is that you talk to more people who don't know your name, so it's more common for you to here גברתי.


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## Dmitry_86

In Russia we have some words to politely (in fact, sometimes not very) address men and women in the streets but I suppose this part of our national culture is not developed enough as it is in other countries. It is interesting, but women have some advantages because applications to them sound better than those to men. 

Normally, we use the word "Девочка" to apply to a little girl or to a girl studying at school and "Девушка" to the one who looks young or is a teenager. Both of these Russian words are translated as "Girl" into English. There are are no boundaries between "Девушка" and someone for whom this word would sound odd. If, for example, a 40-year-old lady looks like a 20-year-old one she may be lucky to hear "Девушка" from someone. In general, if we see a middle-aged woman and need to talk to her we may say "Женщина" ("Woman"), which, I think, is not considered polite in English. For this reason, there is another opportunity: we may say "Извините" or "Извините, пожалуйста" ("Excuse me"). At first sight, this phrase does not have anythinh in common with applying to people but, as I have said, it is a neutral word and we cannot decide on a best way to apply to someone, we can say this. 

As regards men, the situation is the following: "Молодой человек" ("Young") for a young guy and "Мужчина" to a man over 30 as usual. Again, no specific restrictions.

Also we do not distinguish between single and married people. That is, unlike some countries where a married woman can no longer be applied in the same way as she used to be before marriage, in Russia we use the sama words. "Девушка", for instance, could have already been married for several times, whereas "Женщина" may live lonely without having any relationship.


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## berndf

Nunty said:


> I wonder if I am quite a bit older than you, RaLo, or if it is different where you and I live. (I am in my 54 and live in Jerusalem.) It is quite normal for me to be addressed as גברת (madam, ma'am) in just about any situation where someone does not know my name. If you are a young man, I suppose other young men would call you אחי (my brother)?


I remember a stay with friends in Herzlia in the 1980s. They has some work done in the house and the Israeli craftsmen called the lady of the house (in her late 50s at the time) _Judith_ while the Palestinians said _Geveret_. Of course I didn't fail to notice. When I asked she explained to me: "The Israelis have no manners, the Arabs do".


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## Epilio

In Spain it is utilized, albeit it is being lost as well as many other signs of respect., Señor and Señora when addressing to strangers.


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## kat200718

I'm just curious, if sir and ma'am are not used much in England anymore, how do you address a stranger if for instance something slipped out of their pocket (like James said)?


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## spatula

kat200718 said:


> I'm just curious, if sir and ma'am are not used much in England anymore, how do you address a stranger if for instance something slipped out of their pocket (like James said)?


 
That's precisely what compelled me to post the question kat.  We don't say anything by way of an address.  We say, 'Excuse me' and then, when they don't acknowledge it, we say it louder and then louder again.  What's sad is that we don't use any form of address to be respectful to senior citizens.  I was in the US last month and it just struck me how different it was there - it just seemed to come naturally to people.

I was wondering if it reflects on how we are viewed as a nation and what it says about countries where these common courtesies are more prolific.


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## kat200718

Very interesting spatula. (wow, it's very strange to call someone spatula) I think a lot of American kids have the idea that England is very "proper" and that the words sir and madam are part of every other sentence. Of course they grow out of that idea but I've also always had the idea that a big complaint of Britons in America is that people have no manners. I guess everyone has their different idea of manners though.

Also, what words are used depends on what part of the U.S. you are in. Where I am, in the west, it is probably more common to say "excuse me" rather than "sir" or "ma'am" (although those can be heard), but in the south I think it is much more common to say "sir" and "ma'am"


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## spatula

kat200718 said:


> Very interesting spatula. (wow, it's very strange to call someone spatula) I think a lot of American kids have the idea that England is very "proper" and that the words sir and madam are part of every other sentence. Of course they grow out of that idea but I've also always had the idea that a big complaint of Britons in America is that people have no manners. I guess everyone has their different idea of manners though.
> 
> Also, what words are used depends on what part of the U.S. you are in. Where I am, in the west, it is probably more common to say "excuse me" rather than "sir" or "ma'am" (although those can be heard), but in the south I think it is much more common to say "sir" and "ma'am"


 
Yes, I think we're tarnished by all those black and white films where London is continuously foggy! When you mention that Brits complain about Americans being rude, it is noted when you hear people, for example in a bar, saying, 'Give me 2 beers'. I completely understand that this isn't the way every American would place an order - and it's delivered in such a way that you almost hear a subliminal 'please'! But in my experience, 'please' is said with less frequency than here in the UK, so maybe that explains that particular complaint about perceived rudeness. However, the person who has said, 'Give me 2 beers' might be just as likely to say, 'Thank you Sir' when he receives them.

It was San Francisco that I was in last month and yes, you may be right that you don't hear 'Sir and Ma'am' as much as elsewhere, but I'm happy to say that they were without doubt the nicest, friendliest and most polite Americans I'd ever met en masse.

I find our lack of these addresses very sad.


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## ZONGO

It's true that in France Madame and Monsieur are very much a part of everyday life, to the point that forgeting to say Madame or Monsieur when saying bonjour to someone you don't know could easily label you as having no manners. There is an exception however, that of the garçon de café which is notorious throughout the world for his rudeness. But don't worry too much about it if you come visit, we have a tolerance when it comes to foreigners  which makes up for what we lack in terms of service, I guess...


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## Hyper Squirrel

Here in New York the only time I hear sir or ma'am is when I'm a customer somewhere. 'Miss' tends to be more common in schools and on campuses as opposed to 'ma'am' and I have heard 'Mister' replace 'sir'.


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## spatula

Hyper Squirrel said:


> Here in New York the only time I hear sir or ma'am is when I'm a customer somewhere. 'Miss' tends to be more common in schools and on campuses as opposed to 'ma'am' and I have heard 'Mister' replace 'sir'.


 
Actually yes, you've reminded me that 'Miss' is often heard in the States (again, not in the UK - it saddens me to come to the conclusion that, compared to elsewhere, we're just plain rude here on this level!).  But, how is it that 'Sir' is replaced by 'Mister'?  Surely you need the name of Mr X?


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## JamesM

"Mister" could be used instead of "sir" when trying to catch someone's attention: "Hey, mister!  You dropped your wallet."   This could vary by region but to me this sounds old-fashioned, like something out of a movie made in the 1940s.


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## spatula

JamesM said:


> "Mister" could be used instead of "sir" when trying to catch someone's attention: "Hey, mister! You dropped your wallet." This could vary by region but to me this sounds old-fashioned, like something out of a movie made in the 1940s.


 
I agree JamesM, it would certainly not be out of place in a film with plenty of London street urchins shouting out, 'Oi, Mister!'  It does sound very dated which is why I was intrigued.


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## Kevin Beach

spatula said:


> I agree JamesM, it would certainly not be out of place in a film with plenty of London street urchins shouting out, 'Oi, Mister!'  It does sound very dated which is why I was intrigued.


Your example is correct, but Hyper Squirrel's reference was to the use of "Mister" in AmE, not BrE.

Many Holywood gangster films of the 40s and 50s had characters uttering "Mister" when addressing somebody.


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## JamesM

Yes, I just wonder where that still survives.  Hyper Squirrel has apparently heard it still in use in the U.S.


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## basslop

Here in Norway ‘herr/fru (e)’ corresponds to sir/madam or more directly ‘Herr/Frau’ in German. Stand alone they are not used any more except maybe by very old persons. : Like someone has mentioned previously, saying that today would intend sarcasm or irony. When I grew up in the sixties I can recall my parents used ‘herr/fru’ when talking to strangers. 

  Another way is to use "herr/fru is together with the family name, ‘Herr Hansen’ and ‘Fru Pettersen’ etc. My parents still use that occasionally while I don’t.

  What do we use instead? Well, Norway, I think, is the world champion in addressing by the first name. When I went to school we addressed teachers by ‘lærer/frøken’ but nowadays it is just by their first name, Hans, Marius, Eva, etc. Even the prime minister is often mentioned as ’Jens’. By the way we have parliamentary election on Monday, so the prime minister may be Jens, Siv or Erna.


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## spatula

Kevin Beach said:


> Your example is correct, but Hyper Squirrel's reference was to the use of "Mister" in AmE, not BrE.
> 
> Many Holywood gangster films of the 40s and 50s had characters uttering "Mister" when addressing somebody.


 
Yes, that point hadn't escaped me!  My observation was that we too in the UK _used_ to hear 'Mister' being used.  My question is whether or not it's still used today.


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## Kevin Beach

spatula said:


> Yes, that point hadn't escaped me!  My observation was that we too in the UK _used_ to hear 'Mister' being used.  My question is whether or not it's still used today.


Come to think of it, I don't think it is. I can remember it in the mouths of adolescent "working class" boys addressing an unknown older man. It was often said with some irony, but even the pretence of respect has faded nowadays. Nowadays, it's be more likely to be "mate" regardless of age.


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## spatula

basslop said:


> Here in Norway ‘herr/fru (e)’ corresponds to sir/madam or more directly ‘Herr/Frau’ in German. Stand alone they are not used any more except maybe by very old persons. : Like someone has mentioned previously, saying that today would intend sarcasm or irony. When I grew up in the sixties I can recall my parents used ‘herr/fru’ when talking to strangers.
> 
> Another way is to use "herr/fru is together with the family name, ‘Herr Hansen’ and ‘Fru Pettersen’ etc. My parents still use that occasionally while I don’t.
> 
> What do we use instead? Well, Norway, I think, is the world champion in addressing by the first name. When I went to school we addressed teachers by ‘lærer/frøken’ but nowadays it is just by their first name, Hans, Marius, Eva, etc. Even the prime minister is often mentioned as ’Jens’. By the way we have parliamentary election on Monday, so the prime minister may be Jens, Siv or Erna.


 
Wow, really?  And does this sound respectful or not to you?


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## spatula

Kevin Beach said:


> Come to think of it, I don't think it is. I can remember it in the mouths of adolescent "working class" boys addressing an unknown older man. It was often said with some irony, but even the pretence of respect has faded nowadays. Nowadays, it's be more likely to be "mate" regardless of age.


 
True.  A random episode of EastEnders might just squeeze the odd 'Mister' in though!


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## Pedro y La Torre

spatula said:


> When you mention that Brits complain about Americans being rude, it is noted when you hear people, for example in a bar, saying, 'Give me 2 beers'. I completely understand that this isn't the way every American would place an order - and it's delivered in such a way that you almost hear a subliminal 'please'! But in my experience, 'please' is said with less frequency than here in the UK, so maybe that explains that particular complaint about perceived rudeness. However, the person who has said, 'Give me 2 beers' might be just as likely to say, 'Thank you Sir' when he receives them.



This reminds me of something. In Ireland, like America seemingly, we almost never say please in such situations. There is always a subliminal please included in such requests or if not tag-on's can be added such as

"Give me the phone, _will you_?" - the use of please here would sound rather unfriendly, overtly formal, or, if you'll forgive me, English.

To the best of my memory, I can't remember ever running into problems with English people over this though. Where it did cause problems however was with my French girlfriend. At the start I'd do as I did in Ireland "give us that book there, will ya?" and she'd stare expectantly waiting for a please  I'd therefore repeat the question not quite understanding why she wouldn't give me what I wanted. It was only after a long discussion, and not a few small squibbles, that we realized what the problem was. In French you're obliged to say please for any request. In (Irish) English, it doesn't work at all the same way


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## Kevin Beach

Pedro y La Torre said:


> This reminds me of something. In Ireland, like America seemingly, we almost never say please in such situations. There is always a subliminal please included in such requests or if not tag-on's can be added such as
> 
> "Give me the phone, _will you_?" - the use of please here would sound rather unfriendly, overtly formal, or, if you'll forgive me, English.
> 
> To the best of my memory, I can't remember ever running into problems with English people over this though. Where it did cause problems however was with my French girlfriend. At the start I'd do as I did in Ireland "give us that book there, will ya?" and she'd stare expectantly waiting for a please  I'd therefore repeat the question not quite understanding why she wouldn't give me what I wanted. It was only after a long discussion, and not a few small squibbles, that we realized what the problem was. In French you're obliged to say please for any request. In (Irish) English, it doesn't work at all the same way


What does? 

In Ireland too, inflexion says so much. The courtesy is in the demeanour, not the words.


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## basslop

spatula said:


> Wow, really?  And does this sound respectful or not to you?



   General answer: I have no problems with that simply because I have gotten used to it gradually. I think it applies to most Norwegians. . Norway and Scandinavia is said to have a society of likeness. I suppose that this may be explained by the lack of thorough tradition for aristocracy in the history opposed to for example in the UK. This is far away from my subject area so I will not say anything more on that.

  If you referred particularly to the part about the politics, I now see it is more nuanced than how I wrote about it.

Referring to prime minister by first name. That is used in the press in more informal headings like: ‘Jens øker bensiavgiften” (Jens increases the gasoline tax). In TV news etc they use either his whole name ‘Jens Stoltenberg’ or ‘statsministeren’ (The Prime Minister).

  Speaking to the prime minister: The whole name or the title is used. And of course in the parliament they are still even more formal. However in these days of election campaign when the politicians are speaking directly with the man in the street I would guess that many people address the prime minister by first name. That has nothing to do with respect or disrespect. It is about the sense of private company.


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## Rover_KE

Over the last six years I have spent a total of two years in the USA.

It's now second nature for me to address strangers as 'sir', 'ma'am' and 'miss'.

I do it all the time here in England and never get any funny looks.

Rover


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