# Nombre de soltera en EUA



## rocstar

Hola: 
Según sé, en los Estados Unidos si una mujer se casa puede, si quiere, cambiar su apellido por el de su esposo ¿ verdad ?
 ¿ No es esto extraño ? En un país tan adelantado donde se supone que la mujer defiende su individualidad y donde se inició la famosa liberación femenina. 
Rocstar.


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## cuchuflete

"...un país tan adelantado" !  ¿Dónde? 

"...puede, si quiere"!  No tiene que hacer ningún cambio.  Las costumbres culturales van cambiando, poco a poquito. Más de la mitad del pueblo estadounidense es algo menos que adelantado.


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## DiabloScott

It's traditional for the woman to take the husband's apellido:  Isabel Rivera marries Bob Johnson and changes her name to Isabel Johnson.

A well-accepted concession to women's lib is to hyphenate her name and become Isabel Rivera-Johnson.

To reject all tradition and maintain only her given name of Isabel Rivera is seen as non traditional, but very common especially in professional circles.


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## tvdxer

I'm too lazy to respond in Spanish, but about 80% of the time it is the case that the wife takes the husband's last name.  

One sometimes sees hyphenated last names - a made-up example would be Schmidt-Agnelli or Gunderson-Maki.  This often results from the wife adding the husband's last name to her own, or vice versa.

Perhaps contrary to popular belief, most women in the United States did not buy into the more radical demands / claims of the "women's liberation" movement.  I don't think a society or country is less "adelantado" because women choose to take their husband's last names rather than preserve their own.  It signifies a giving of one's self I think.


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## Bilma

rocstar said:


> ¿ No es esto extraño ? En un país tan adelantado donde se supone que la mujer defiende su individualidad y donde se inició la famosa liberación femenina.
> Rocstar.


 
In Mexico it is even worse. Fulanita Martínez *de Pérez*


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## rocstar

Bilma said:


> In Mexico it is even worse. Fulanita Martínez *de Pérez*


 
Hola Bilma:
I`m sorry but you're mistaken. That is only a social practice. The woman's name never changes. Check a married woman's voter's card or passport and you'll see her name along with her two last names.

Es una práctica social solamente. Los apellidos de la mujer nunca cambian, checa los documentos de una mujer casada.

Rocstar.


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## Bilma

rocstar said:


> Hola Bilma:
> I`m sorry but you're mistaken. That is only a social practice. The woman's name never changes. Check a married woman's voter's card or passport and you'll see her name along with her two last names.
> 
> Es una práctica social solamente. Los apellidos de la mujer nunca cambian, checa los documentos de una mujer casada.
> 
> Rocstar.


 

Yes, I know, but even if it is a social practice the mayority of women follow it. I have never met one who did not.


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## fenixpollo

Bilma said:


> Yes, I know, but even if it is a social practice the mayority of women follow it. I have never met one who did not.


 I've never met a Mexican woman who has added her husband's name on to the end of her own name. In places like Mexico City and Guadalajara, not only would the younger generation find this antiquated, but the custom has fewer and fewer adherents, even the generation born in the 1950's.

However, this is off the topic. I agree with cuchu that the phrase "un país tan adelantado" is based on a lot of assumptions.


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## Bilma

Same country different worlds. I am surprised of the difference fenixpollo, I am from Mexico City and I am only 3 years older than you.  We all learn something new every day......


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## Kangy

In Argentina, it was quite common for wives to add their husbands' surnames after their own, preceded by "de". For example, Ana Martínez, married to Juan Gianotti becomes Ana Martínez de Gianotti.
However, this practice is decreasing and most women who do have their husbands' surnames usually write their own name: Ana Martínez.
In this case it's just a matter of preference of each woman.


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## Imperialista_Yanqui

Ha! Believe it or not, there are still women who say," ...onor and *obey...*" in their wedding vows here. I ,for one, am insisting on it. Gender roles are not backwards in the same way that feminism is not "adelantado". Seems to be a lot of value laden vocabulary tossed about here. My sister-in-law uses her maiden name professionally(she and my brother are both attorneys at the same firm). There was an inordinate amount of pressure from feminist higher ups with an agenda for her not to change her name at work. It seemed that they only respect woman's right to choose when they agree with the choices that she makes!


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## fenixpollo

Bilma said:


> Same country different worlds. I am surprised of the difference fenixpollo, I am from Mexico City and I am only 3 years older than you.  We all learn something new every day......


You're right, Bilma. Until you shared your experience, I would have thought that the practice of adding the husband's surname with "de" was a dying custom in Mexico. 


Imperialista_Yanqui said:


> Seems to be a lot of value laden vocabulary tossed about here.


Not in this thread. You're the only one (besides tvdxer, perhaps) who is making value judgments about these social practices. The rest of us are just commenting on them.


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## Brioche

I'm often amused at the notion that when a woman keeps her *father's* surname she is more liberated that if she adopts her *husband's* surname. It's still a man's name!

In China, [where a woman traditionally obeys her father, then her husband, then her eldest son], women have always maintained their father's surname after marriage. What a model of "women's lib".


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## chics

But in China also men have their father's surname. Most of people over the word are proud of having their parents' surname.

What sounds not very fine in other countries is that idea of a woman belonging to her father until she is married, when she begin to belong -and even take his surname- to his husband. And the fact that men, however, are able to have an "identity by themselves".

I forgot remember you that in Mexico, for example, people (men and women) have their father's (a man, yes) surname but also the surname of their mother (a woman!). Both.


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## Imperialista_Yanqui

fenixpollo said:


> Not in this thread. You're the only one (besides tvdxer, perhaps) who is making value judgments about these social practices. The rest of us are just commenting on them.


It would appear that you don't know what a value judgment is when you see one. My post was the epitome of value neutral language as I neither attributed the value of "adelantado" to feminism nor backwards to gender rolls; however, Chuchuflete's comment that half the US is something less than "adelantado" smacks of cultural elitism, is divisive, and is a classic sociological value judgment. The subjective judgments that we make about cultures based on own  concepts of what makes a culture "adelantado", and therefore "good", and conversely what makes a culture "backwards" and by implication "bad" is one reason we Americans of the US variety have such problems with developing countries.


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## cuchuflete

Some people are so busy telling developing countries and their own supposedly developed country how things ought to be that they can't recognize humor when it's dropped on their face.  

This statement—

Más de la mitad del pueblo estadounidense es algo menos que adelantado.

could easily be applied to any country in the world.  If one bothers to read the entire post from which it came, with just a wee bit of attention, one might also discover this shocking statement, in reference to a woman in the U.S. who gets married,   "No tiene que hacer ningún cambio."   While there are those who do take another name for any number of reasons,  and those who choose not to, for any number of reasons, there is absolute legal freedom to do as one pleases.  Sadly, social pressures are often applied from one side or another to make it an ideological, rather than personal, decision.  _Go with the herd_ is not a uniquely estadounidense edict, but it certainly does show its ugly head with frequency in the U.S.  

As to simplistic assertions that "adelantado" is either "good" or "bad",  I suggest you try to find any such declaration in the statement you are condemning.  You will fail, simply because there is none.


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## EmilyD

Not only do some women change their last names via hyphenation, plenty of men do it also.

e.g. A friend whose last name was *Jones* was only too happy to add his wife's last name. Let's call him Jack "Fulana-Jones". [ 2/3 of that is his real name.]

Many folks I know don't change their last names, but give their children hyphenated last names. 

Lastly, I have met couples who found ways to invent a new surname for themselves by taking elements of the previous last names.  One couple gave their children a shorter name. The parents' last names both ended in *'berg*.  The kids' surname is simply Berg.

Best wishes to all,  Nomi X


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## chics

EmilyD said:


> Lastly, I have met couples who found ways to invent a new surname for themselves by taking elements of the previous last names. One couple gave their children a shorter name. The parents' last names both ended in *'berg*. The kids' surname is simply Berg.


It looks nice but, is it legal?


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## EmilyD

The so-called *Homeland Security *changes will probably restrict us, but currently, I believe, each state has separate policies regarding name changes.

Rhode Island is more liberal than some, less so than others.

One man running for political office changed his name so that he would be on the top of the ballot.  I have no idea if he was married or not...

He added a lower case "a" to his existing surname.  This was in the not too distant past.  He was elected mayor. ( not in Providence but nearby).

Trying  to remain on topic I remain,

Nomi


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## paper

chics said:


> But in China also men have their father's surname. Most of people over the word are proud of having their parents' surname.


But why just the father's surname?

In the case of Spain, why does the father's _apellido _come first? This means that after two generations the mother's one is no longer passed on.

If I ever got married I wouldn't want my wife to take my surname, but that's just the traditional way it's done here, and in most European countries(?). It's definitely not something particular to the USA.


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## chics

Well, I think China's option is a bit better than USA's in this sense.

Unofficially, everybody in Spain can tell you their surnames coming from all their grandparents and even more, but it isn't practical to keep all of them (we could accumulate, from all our great-grandparents, our great-great-grandparents, etc.) in official documents. It'd be infinite! So two surnames seems enough. *:-B*

Anyway, we were talking about USA's habits and I only tried to explain a little why at the eyes of *rocstar*, as a Mexican, this can seem a bit of... "medieval"? (sorry). There's another thread about changing one's surnames.


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## paper

Well, it's not really a USA thing because obviously they got that system from the European settlers. The Spanish system seems to be the odd one out when compared to other European countries: 

"Spain is the only country [in the EU] where the general rule for women is to not change their name after marriage and where most women retain their birth name (77%)". (Source: The surname of married women in the European Union).

So maybe a better question would be how come the traditionally patriarchal Hispanic culture uses that system and not the other one.


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## cuchuflete

paper said:


> So maybe a better question would be how come the traditionally patriarchal Hispanic culture uses that system and not the other one.


 Better question?  Maybe.  In any case it is not the question that this thread is supposed to be addressing.


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## paper

You're right. I guess my point was that the system used in the USA is actually the same (or similar to) the one used in most of Europe (and countries where the majority of the population is of European descent), with the exception of Spain and its former colonies in the New World.


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## avok

Not just in the United States, but in many other countries (all of them except Mexico, Spain ? )  the wife takes the husband's last name.


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## anothersmith

I kept my own name when I got married in the 90s, and only one or two people have ever questioned my decision.   People who know my husband but not me assume I have his last name, but they never make a big deal about it when I correct them.


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## jinti

I don't see why women having the *option* of changing their surname after marriage is seen as strange.  I would rather have the choice than be told that I cannot or should not take my husband's name.  As I see it, being able to choose for ourselves is more _adelantado_ than having no choice in the matter.


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## chics

paper said:


> "Spain is the only country [in the EU] where the general rule for women is to not change their name after marriage and where most women retain their birth name (77%)". (Source: The surname of married women in the European Union).


Hello. I respect all your opinions, it's always interesting to know why people feel like they do about any topic, mot when it's different than my culture. 

But this source is clearly *WRONG*. The author, *Marie-France Valletas* is not well informed at all or she is lying. In Spain 100% women retain their bith name after marriage and of course it's not the only country in Europe that do that, there's also Portugal, for example.

In America, women retain their own (birth) surnames after marriage in most of countries.


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## avok

To be honest, I would not want my mother to have a different surname than mine and that of my father. But if ,in Spanish speaking countries, mothers have different surnames, how do they prove they are the mothers of the kids? (when it is necessary to prove)


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## papillon

avok said:


> ...if ...mothers have different surnames, how do they prove they are the mothers of the kids? (when it is necessary to prove)


Probably the same way mothers, even those with the same last name, do everywhere else: they show the child's birth certificate.


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## cuchuflete

rocstar said:


> Hola:
> Según sé, en los Estados Unidos si una mujer se casa puede, si quiere, cambiar su apellido por el de su esposo ¿ verdad ?
> ¿ No es esto extraño ? En un país tan adelantado *donde se supone que la mujer defiende su individualidad* y donde se inició la famosa liberación femenina.


¡Válgame!  Merece la pena subrayar esta idea:  

_se supone que la mujer defiende su individualidad

_Pues claro que si una mujer depende totalmente del apellido para establecer y defender su individualidad (_o sea que no tiene individualidad alguna más allá del apellido_ ), y si uno quiere definir la individualidad de la mujer en términos tan limitados como la permanencia del nombre de soltera, inalterable y perpetuo, entonces hay un problemita grave para con la mujer estadounidense.

En cambio, si este detalle forma sólo una parte del significado muy variable de la individualidad de la persona, y en conjunto con el libre albedrío cada cual puede expresar su individualidad apelativo como se dé la santísima, no veo ningún misterio, ni mucho menos una situación problemática.   
​


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## Mate

Moderator's note: Please keep the discussion focused on the main question.

*Main question:* 



> *Nombre de soltera en EUA*
> 
> Hola:
> 
> Según sé, en los Estados Unidos si una mujer se casa puede, si quiere, cambiar su apellido por el de su esposo, ¿verdad?
> ¿No es esto extraño? En un país tan adelantado donde se supone que la mujer defiende su individualidad y donde se inició la famosa liberación femenina.
> 
> Rocstar.



Mateamargo
Moderador


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## HUMBERT0

avok said:


> To be honest, I would not want my mother to have a different surname than mine and that of my father. But if ,in Spanish speaking countries, mothers have different surnames, how do they prove they are the mothers of the kids? (when it is necessary to prove)


 Just to answer you question:
  Children have both of their parent’s names; the children's second last-name matches the mother’s first last-name.

For example:
*Joseph Agraz Bracamontes *marries *Anna Villalobos Sahagún*. Their children will bear the last name of both parents. For example their three children: Marco Antonio *Agraz* *Villalobos*, Mercedes *Agraz* *Villalobos* y Carolina *Agraz* *Villalobos*.
  And when you refer to the hole family, they will be “Los *Agraz* *Villalobos*” family, sometimes they will be referred simply as “Los Agraz” family and some times “Los *Agraz* *Villalobos*”, because their cousins or other family members may have different last names, for example: *Agraz* Goicochea, Meneses *Villalobos*, Alcazar *Villalobos*, *Agraz* Buenrostro, etc.

  Thus kinship can be emphasized by mentioning both last names of the parents. So as you can see there is no confusion, as long as the children live they carry the mother's last name. I like having my mother's Last name as part of my name, it's part of her family and her name and it's not affected by my father's last name which is also part of my name.


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## cuchuflete

Mateamargo said:


> Moderator's note: Please keep the discussion focused on the main question.
> 
> *Main question:*
> 
> *Nombre de soltera en EUA*


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## Brioche

EmilyD said:


> Not only do some women change their last names via hyphenation, plenty of men do it also.
> 
> Many folks I know don't change their last names, but give their children hyphenated last names.
> 
> X



Some folk do that here in Australia, too. I must say I think it is daft. It smacks of aristocratic pretension. Then there's the squabble about whose name comes first!

My objection is "What happens to the next generation?"

When Amy Beauchamp-Cholmondeley falls for Xavier Yalapragada-Zoladziewski, what will they call the kids? 

I'd rather have a name than a genealogy.


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