# Κοραής - etymology



## Spectre scolaire

Αδαμάντιος Κοραής (1748-1833) – his name is transcribed differently (Koraes, Korais, Coray) – is known as a humanist scholar and a prolific writer. He lived most of his life in France. For those who are not familiar with this person, see Wikipedia (s.v. _Adamantios Korais_), an article of mediocre value and questionable assumptions which seems to be based on Encyclopædia Britannica. I was never a great fan of Korais, and yet, I have read him both in Greek and French. As a so-called _Greek humanist_, he is an interesting and a central figure. 

What I never came across, neither from the horse’s mouth, so to say – and Korais wrote extensively on etymology - nor from anybody else, is what his name actually means.

_What is the etymology of Korais_?

I use the occasion of this thread to ask for an opinion on the matter. 

*PS*: I am not interested in hearing about the life and works of Korais, nor his influence on Greek intellectual life.  My question is about the origin of his surname.
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## ireney

Well, I know this is not exactly answering your question, but it is possible that you have already found the answer  It doesn't seem to come from Greek and surnames derived from Turkish (derived often meaning "take the Turkish word and add a Greek suffix" ) are not rare _at all_.


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## Spectre scolaire

ireney said:


> it is possible that you have already found the answer.


 I guess I should be flattered  - but honestly, in this case I am blank.  Well, almost.

Of course, it is very tempting to produce such an etymology. The problem is that I have never seen anybody doing it. And the reason is obvious: the name Κοραής “should not” have a Turkish etymology. 

An anecdote might put this “should not” in perspective:

Around 15 years ago I paid a visit to the _Korais Library_ in Chios. I asked a librarian whether the name Κοραής came from Turkish _Koray_, a not uncommon Turkish first name. She got very upset and asked me how I could fancy such a thing. –So, what do we know about the origin of the name? I retorted. She couldn’t come up with an answer.

Much more recently I was helped by a young shop assistent in Germany who had a name badge reading _[...] Demirtzidou_. She was a bit surprised when I asked her in Greek whether she knew the meaning of her family name. She had absolutely no idea.

Turkish demirci is a “smith” or an “ironmonger”. Her father had never told her, but she knew that her grandfather had come, as a child, “from somewhere along the Black Sea coast.”

This young woman “had always thought the name was Greek,” but was pleased to learn the real origin of it. Of course, Δεμιρτζίδης is a Greek name, but the etymology of it is a Turkish word indicating a profession. The patronymic ending -ίδης was very common among Pontic Greeks. 

Is it possible that the same “naiveté” also obtains for the name Κοραής? Is it indeed conceivable that nobody ever stated explicitly - for some reverential reason - that this name is of Turkish origin – if that is really the case? 
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## ireney

As I said before, I really don't know. I will be more than a bit surprised if, in some obscure way, it has a Greek origin. If it's not Turkish then it must come from another language if you ask me. I am not quite sure how you came to the conclusion that a) nobody has mentioned the etymology of the surname "Κοραής" or that b) that it would somehow be irreverent to mention it's of Turkish origin. And one lady's opinion doesn't count that much I would think  . 

Now putting my moderator's hat (stole that line  ) I must say that any further discussion on anything but the etymology of this specific surname should be continued via PMs.


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## Spectre scolaire

ireney said:


> I am not quite sure how you came to the conclusion [*?*] that a) nobody has mentioned the etymology of the surname "Κοραής" or that b) that it would somehow be irreverent to mention it's of Turkish origin.


 A propos *a*). _Based on my own reading_ I have never seen anybody suggesting a Turkish etymology. But I am sure there are many in this forum who have read much more than me. 

*b*) As Κοραής is commonly considered to be the “father of καθαρεύουσα”, a hybrid written language that does not – in principle! – contain any Turkish loanwords, I find my comment appropriate. 

Now, to the nitty-gritties of how a Turkish word is adapted into Greek:

If we consider koray to be a lexeme (and not a name or person), its morphological adaptation to Modern Greek would be *κοράι. A parallel is Turkish kalay, “tin” > Greek καλάι – notice accent.

As a name, we would have expected Koray to be adapted as *Κοράης. A parallel is Turkish bey, “gentleman; prince; master”, which yields Greek μπέης, which incidentally is both a word and a name: The famous Greek byzantinologist Νίκος Α. Μπέης transcribed his name as Nikos A. Bees. The quality of the diphthong – [ai] vs. [ei] – is of no importance for our purpose.

As the Turkish word bey originally contains a final consonant, *beğ (see this post and the following), a consonant which in Standard Turkish only reflects a historical reality, it could be relevant to have a look at how Turkish words containing such a final are being adapted. 

I can’t think of any sequence denoting a name/person, but there are some lexemes which offer a comparison, f.ex. Turkish kaşağı, “currycomb” > Greek κασαϊ – there should be an accent on the top of the _diaeresis_, but I can’t produce it with my present font. Now, if the word kaşağı had been _sexus masculinum_ instead of the normal adaptation into _genus neutrum_, it would most probably have been adapted as Greek *κασαής. 

The purpose of this excursion is of course to ask whether there is a consonant “missing” in Κοραής.

Another problem with Turkish Koray as an etymon for Greek Κοραής is that Koray is _most commonly_ a first name. I can’t think of any Turkish given names which have yielded Greek surnames. This would lead us to think that Κοραής may have been taken from a Turkish surname. In fact, Koray as a surname also exists in Turkish – like so many other names which can be either first name or surname, conventionally in various proportions according to the name. A counterargument to this is that surnames constitute a rather modern phenomenon among Turks. Atatürk imposed on everybody to take a surname. There are, however, numerous exceptions; some Turkish families have had their surnames for centuries. A family with such a name would often belong to the old aristocracy – in some way or another. I have never heard of any ‘family Koray’ with such roots. In Greece it was very common to take the name of notable families and later pretend that they actually had roots back to Byzantine times. Λογοθέτης is just one such name. 

A preliminary conclusion is that I think we have to look into the origin of the family Κοραής.

A final comment:




ireney said:


> It doesn't seem to come from Greek and surnames derived from Turkish (derived often meaning "take the Turkish word and add a Greek *suffix*") are not rare _at all_.


 As for the name Κοραής, there is no *suffix* added – only a Greek _adaptation morpheme_. In order to make this difference clear, I came up with the example of Δεμιρτζίδης in which –ίδης is indeed a suffix. In the case of Μπέης, -ς is no suffix but an adaptation morpheme. If Κοραής is derived from Turkish, the same type of morpheme obtains. 
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## anthodocheio

Having read everything in this thread and having knowledge on the subject only from here and there and not from personal reading, 
I agree that we should look into the origin of the family Κοραής and
I suppose that it could come from a word sounding like “Κόρα” (or not quite) with the suffix or Greek _adaptation morpheme_ (I don’t know which) –ής. 

Like here:


Spectre scolaire said:


> I can’t think of any sequence denoting a name/person, but there are some lexemes which offer a comparison, f.ex. Turkish kaşağı, “currycomb” > Greek κασαϊ – there should be an accent on the top of the _diaeresis_, but I can’t produce it with my present font. Now, if the word kaşağı had been _sexus masculinum_ instead of the normal adaptation into _genus neutrum_, it would most probably have been adapted as Greek *κασαής.
> ​


 
The -τζής in Καλαϊτζής, Κελαρτζής, τσορμπατζής, σοβατζής, καφετζής what is it?
I have more in -ής: μερακλής, καραμπουζουκλής, μπουζουξής...


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## Spectre scolaire

anthodocheio said:


> The -τζής in Καλαϊτζής 1), Κελαρτζής 2), τσορμπατζής 3), σοβατζής 4), καφετζής 5) what is it?
> I have more in -ής: μερακλής 6), καραμπουζουκλής 7), μπουζουξής 8)...


 1) < Turkish kalayci, “tinsmith; _impostor_”. I’d like to know whether the Greek word also has the latter meaning. The Turkish suffix –c*I* has four-fold vowel harmony.
2) < Greek κελάρι + the productive suffix –τζής.
3) < Turkish çorbacı, “maker or seller of soup; Christian notable in Turkish towns”.
4) < Turkish sıvacı, “plasterer”.
5) < Turkish kahveci. We all know, don’t we?  – “the keeper of a coffee shop” or “the person who prepares _Turkish coffee_”.
6) < Turkish meraklı, “whimsical; curious”. The Turkish suffix -l*I* has four-fold vowel harmony.
7) Most probably a Greek formatıon < καρα + μπουζούκι + the productive suffix -λής. The word μπουζούκι is originally a bağlama, “folk instrument with three double strings, played with a plectrum”, and one which is _bozuk_ at that, “whose strings are tuned in a ‘wrong’ way”, mostly meaning anything “out of order”, but also “a kind of lute” (which may be a backloan from Greek).
8) = μπουζουκιτζής. A Greek formation < μπουζούκι + the productive suffix τζής.
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## ireney

Moderator's note: If you are interested in discussing the very interesting I admit subject of suffixes coming from the Turkish language any further it will have to be done in a separate thread. Inform one of the moderators for moving any post you may wish moved in such a case.


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## balgior

Hello all! 



anthodocheio said:


> The *-τζής* in Καλαϊτζής, Κελαρτζής, τσορμπατζής, σοβατζής, καφετζής what is it?



I thought it was the *-τζής* that anthodocheio was interested in.  Anyway...



Spectre scolaire said:


> 1) < Turkish kalayci, “tinsmith; _impostor_”. I’d like to know whether the Greek word also has the latter meaning.



As far as I know it only means "tinsmith". (Turkish) kalay -> καλάι (κασσίτερος) -> καλαϊτζής (/γανωματής/γανωτής)



> 4) < Turkish sobacı, “maker, repairer or installer of stoves”. The form σοβατζής instead of σομπατζής is a _hellenization_ of the word.



I am surprised that I have to correct you Spectre scolaire , but it is: σουβάς (plaster) -> σοβάς -> σοβατζής (plasterer) (siva -> sıvacı, in Turkish. I don't know which derives from which)

Note to moderator  : οτιδήποτε πάνω από δω ας μεταφερθεί με τα υπόλοιπα σε νέο θρεντ, αν μεταφερθούν τελικά, με κανονική γραμματοσειρά - αν θεωρούνται και αυτά σχετικά δηλαδή. Διαφορετικά αναμένω εντολές για να τα σβήσω - κρίμα να κλειδωθεί το τόπικ. Ή καλύτερα, ας ανοίξει η ανθοδοχούλα ένα νέο θρεντ με κόπι-πέιστ και να μεταφέρουμε εμείς τα δικά μας από κάτω...
 
Alright, here  is a desperate attempt to save the topic: 

  Ο Αδαμάντιος Κοραής γεννήθηκε στη Σμύρνη το έτος 1748. Ήταν ο γιος του    Χιώτη εμπόρου Ιωάννη Κοραή και της συζύγου του Θωμαϊδας Ρίσιου. [source]

So, lets travel to Chios (if his ancestors didn't come from somewhere else as well, that is)...

I read almost the whole history of Chios (interesting site, by the way), trying to find anything relative. Well, nothing...  The only thing that is worth mentioning, if it is of any use, is that a long time before any Turks came to Chios and even before 1346, when Genoese population appeared in the island, there existed the last name "Κορέσσης" (a surname, indeed, belonging to aristocracy, Spectre scolaire), probably a Byzantine one.
Maybe it has nothing to do with "Κοραής", and we don't even know what is the etymology of this name too. However, I mention it for two reasons: a) the "Κορ-" is not something unknown to Chios before Turks, b) many names have transformed to something similar through the ages. And if you fill up your mouth with roasted chickpeas and try to say "Κοραής" and "Κορέσσης", it will sound the same! Now, that's what I call a "scientific method". 

Ok, If you ask me, the Turkish Koray (=hollow?) explanation sounds more solid. If I were you, however, I would try to e-mail the "Μουσείο Κοραή", asking for their help - if I couldn't live without it. (Well, probably I would get an answer equivalent to the librarian's, but...) Good luck! 



> She got very upset and asked me how I could fancy such a thing. –So, what do we know about the origin of the name? I retorted. She couldn’t come up with an answer.



Hmmm... yeah, that's a common reaction of people feeling their nation is superior to all others. Especially when conflicts exist between countries. Living in a yurt you must have realized that.  Never mind her...


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## Spectre scolaire

Of course, you are right about σοβατζής! The Turkish word is most probably adapted _en bloc_ – and in an interesting phonetic way, at that. It is very unusual for Turkish *ı* to be adapted as Greek *ο*. One would have expected σουβατζής which incidentally is found in Northern Greek dialects. 

I could also produce another etymology regarding καραμπουζουκλής - but I’d rather ventilate that in a separate thread. 

As for our real topic –-




			
				balgior said:
			
		

> The only thing that is worth mentioning, if it is of any use, is that a long time before any Turks came to Chios and even before 1346, when Genoese population appeared in the island, there existed the last name "Κορέσσης" (a surname, indeed, belonging to aristocracy, Spectre scolaire), probably a Byzantine one.


 –-this is a very interesting piece of information!

I never liked the alleged Turkish etymology of Κοραής. As I have elaborated on, it is “too cheap”, so to say. Now, I’ll give this new idea a thought. It fits much better into the history of Chios!

I never thought of checking Hubert Pernot’s three volume work on the dialect of Chios (I. published 1907 and II./III. in 1946, the year he died). I wouldn’t be surprised if Pernot – who wrote the only consistent grammar of καθαρεύουσα! – should happen to mention Κοραής and the origin of his name. There is an interesting word list in the last volume.

By the way, where did you find koray, “hollow”?  - if that is supposed to be a translation of the Turkish word. Or, is it a joke?
 *PS*: _yurt_ is also a “home” - even a “native country”... ​


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## balgior

Spectre scolaire said:


> By the way, where did you find koray, “hollow”?  - if that is supposed to be a translation of the Turkish word. Or, is it a joke?



At the link you provided:


aslan said:


> Actually The ember means Kor and moon is Ay if translated separately in Turkish.It may be sound "ember moon" to you.But I have just checked the meaning of Koray in the dictionary for Turkish names and having found that Koray means "hollow things like pike or bulrush".



Maybe I misunderstood...  Anyway...


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## Spectre scolaire

Obviously, I must have read it , but I can’t have taken it very seriously.  I still don’t. A _name book_ is hardly ever a reliable source for etymologies. I have got a whole collection of such books, and I am pretty sure there is a Turkish one among them – only my library is not next to me for the time being. It would be nice to see a source, _aslan_! 

 I never thought of how easily I forget things that I find dodgy. ​


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