# R moscia



## tridentina

Dear members,

can anybody help me translating the expression "R moscia" into English? I don't mean the French "r", but simply that genetic characteristic that doesn't allow an Italian speaker to pronounce correctly the Italian "r". It may actually sound like a French "r", but there are different kinds of "R moscia", as far as I know...

Thank you all!
T.


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## Paulfromitaly

Io ho sentito sia French R che rolling R; ovviamente non stiamo parlando di termini appropriati per definire questo difetto di pronuncia.


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## tridentina

Grazie Paul!

Pensavo che "rolling R" fosse la R italiana!

Buona giornata!
T.


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## Paulfromitaly

tridentina said:


> Grazie Paul!
> 
> Pensavo che "rolling R" fosse la R italiana!
> 
> Buona giornata!
> T.


Qual è la R italiana? 
Io ho la R moscia e più di una persona l'ha definita _rolling R._


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## Einstein

Anche per me la _rolling R_ è quella italiana (o scozzese).


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## Saoul

Concordo, la "rolling R" è quella... diciamo "standard" italiana. 

La R alla francese della "erre moscia" è un difetto di pronuncia definito "rotacismo" ed è un'altra cosa.


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## tridentina

accidenti... se la _rolling R_ è la R italiana... la _R moscia_ è la _French R_? 
Can't any native speaker help? (Magari gli Inglesi non soffrono di rotacismo... !)

T.


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## Einstein

tridentina said:


> Magari gli Inglesi non soffrono di rotacismo... !
> T.


Gli inglesi che hanno problemi con la R di solito fanno una specie di W.


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## papi

I usually say that I can't pronounce 'R'...  

I don't think I have a 'rolling R', because I simply can't raise my tongue to the palate, instead leaving it still on the base of my mouth...   

On the other hand, the word 'rolling' reminds me of movement.

Actually I'm quite curious about the correct English term of 'r moscia' 


Laura


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## TimLA

HERE Wiki says:
One should notice that this speaker sometimes does not respect the standard pronunciation of the letter "e" (as represented in the phonetic translation), and he is at points unable to articulate correctly the rolling R: in Italian, he is said to have an 'R moscia' (soft R) (post-palatal R, technically, which many Italian have: they call it the "French R", although it looks more like an English R).


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## tridentina

Hey, thank you everybody... 

So, as far as I understand:
- rolling R = Italian R
- French R
- soft R = R moscia

...I think "soft R" is a good solution... I wonder what it sounds like for a native speaker anyway!
I really thank everybody!! 
T.


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## curiosone

Hmmm... I'm even more confused than before reading this.  I had no difficulty mastering the French R (when I studied French, it came immediately to me).  However it's a different sound than the English R or the American R (which can also be very different), and not due to a speech defect.  I had great difficulty in learning to roll any kind of an r (when learning Italian), and only managed any sort of rolling after several months of living in Italy. But I still wouldn't define my rolled R as an Italian R. 
So... we have:
French R: (deep) in the throat
rolled or Italian R: palatal sound (but an R can be rolled without sounding Italian)
English R: which can sound like "ah" 
American R: when I try pronouncing various American Rs, the sound seems to come from my teeth/jaws, with some throat (but not as deep as a French R).

Frankly, I'm not sure it's possible to translate the concept of "erre moscia" into English, as the only "difetto di pronuncia" of an R that I can think of (in English) is the Chinese R (= L).


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## Einstein

Hi curio,





curiosone said:


> English R: which can sound like "ah"


But you're referring to "non-rhotic" speech, which doesn't pronounce the R at all _in certain positions_, including the name of the letter (ah, as you say). Those who don't pronounce the R in "ever" will still pronounce it in "very" and here it can be similar to the American R, especially in south-west England.

_Frankly, I'm not sure it's possible to translate the concept of "erre moscia" into English, as the only "difetto di pronuncia" of an R that I can think of (in English) is the Chinese R (= L)._
An interesting point. See my post #8, but this may apply only to British speech. Don't any Americans have problems with the R? I said above that the English R can be similar to the American R, but maybe it is slightly more rolled, depending on the region.

PS (back to the original question): I think "French R" may not be entirely precise, but it's the nearest description comprehensible to most English-speakers who are not familiar with all the technicalities about the position of the tongue, the palate etc.


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## Paulfromitaly

Einstein said:


> comprehensible to most English-speakers who are not familiar with all the technicalities about the position of the tongue, the palate etc.


This is a good point since there's nothing technical about "R moscia", it's simply how people call a weird-sounding R


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## alicip

*Qui *spiegano la "erre moscia":
La *“erre moscia”* è dovuta essenzialmente ad un disturbo di tipo fonologico che è dato da una difficoltà di motilità (ovvero la cosiddetta capacità di movimento) dell’articolazione della _lingua._ Solitamente si inizia a notare questo difetto verso i due anni di età o anche oltre, dato che la _“erre”_ è uno degli ultimi _*fonemi*_ del nostro alfabeto che il bambino usa nel suo linguaggio.
Tale difetto si cura facilmente attraverso la rieducazione logopedica. In ogni caso, a qualsiasi età, è però possibile correggere il difetto e acquisire una corretta pronuncia della “_*r*_”, adottando e utilizzando i dovuti accorgimenti ed esercizi che stimolano la motilità della parte anteriore della *lingua.*
Gli esercizi più adatti vengono indicati dal *logopedista,* lo specialista che rieduca chi soffre di _disturbi del linguaggio_. In campo medico, l’utilizzo della _r moscia_ o alla francese da parte degli individui che presentano una pronuncia della _erre_ diversa dall’uso comune, in italiano è indicata con il termine *rotacismo*.
Il rotacismo
Il rotacismo si può verificare nella maggior parte dei casi a causa di un difetto organico, come la presenza di un frenulo linguale corto dalla nascita o di un palato divenuto ogivale. L’individuo che presenta questo problema adotta un uso inconsapevole e particolare dell’appendice (lingua), producendo la classica vibrazione nella parte posteriore del cavo orale, adiacente all’esofago e alla trachea, e non nella parte anteriore del cavo vicino ai denti.
Correggere la “Erre moscia“
Lo specialista di logopedia si occuperà quindi di impostare gli esatti esercizi che porteranno a fronteggiare e a correggere il disturbo fonologico, impostando così la corretta articolazione del fonema.
Le tempistiche per risolvere il disturbo variano da persona a persona, a seconda delle cause che sono all’origine, della motivazione e dell’età. La pronuncia scorretta del fonema (ovvero del suono) “r” è dovuta anche all’inflessione dominante dialettale della zona di origine: in particolar modo, nelle zone del parmense e dell’alessandrino il fonema “erre” risente di influenze dialettali e viene trasmesso e appreso in modo scorretto, rispetto al suono che dovrebbe invece avere nella lingua italiana.

E *qui *spiegano "the French r":
*The French r* is one of the sounds that can cause most difficulties for English learners (and indeed learners of other languages that don't have a similar sound). There are actually various possible types of r sound in French, but nowadays by far the most common, standard French r sound is essentially a uvular fricative.
To produce a uvular fricative, the back of the tongue comes very close to the uvula, which is the very end part of the soft palate that "dangles down" at the back of the mouth (see diagram below). The principle is the same as for other fricative sounds like s, z: the tongue comes in close enough contact to cause friction as the air passes between the tongue and uvula (causing the "rough", "irregular" sound that you hear), but not close enough to stop the sound completely.
When practising the French r, for some people it helps to "imagine" that you're pronouncing the sound at the "back of the throat". It's important to note that in reality, this description isn't accurate, though: the friction is in reality produced specifically between the tongue and the uvula1.
In ordinary, rapid French speech, the r is often an approximant between two vowels. This means that the back of the tongue comes close to the uvular, but not quite close enough to cause significant friction, and the r sound therefore takes on a "vowel-like" quality. Listen to the pronunciation of the word arrêt in the examples below.
It is usually voiced before a vowel (i.e. the vocal cords vibrate during the pronunciation of the r), but can often be devoiced at the end of a phrase or before or after a voiceless consonant. So for example, in the pronunciation of the words artiste or train, the vocal cords often do not vibrate through the r sound (or only through a small proportion of it) because of the influence of the voiceless t sound.

I agree that "French r" is the most near translation of "erre moscia".


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## joanvillafane

Of course Americans also have pronunciation problems with the r sound.  It's very often pronounced with something that sounds like "w", as in Elmer Fudd's notorious "I'll get you, you wascally wabbit!"


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## King Crimson

joanvillafane said:


> Of course Americans also have pronunciation problems with the r sound.  It's very often pronounced with something that sounds like "w", as in Elmer Fudd's notorious "I'll get you, you wascally wabbit!"


 
Not to mention: "Shhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting wabbits"


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## elfa

Paulfromitaly said:


> This is a good point since there's nothing technical about "R moscia", it's simply how people call a weird-sounding R



Round these parts, we just say "he/she can't pronounce his/her r's"


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## Einstein

elfa said:


> Round these parts, we just say "he/she can't pronounce his/her r's"


Hi elfa Yes, but it's different; "R moscia" refers specifically to the R used by Italians who have a problem with the normal R (and I suspect also cultivated by the upper classes of north-west Italy). It's different from the Frank Muir type W.


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## elfa

Einstein said:


> "R moscia" refers specifically to the R used by Italians who have a problem with the normal R (and I suspect also cultivated by the upper classes of north-west Italy). It's different from the Frank Muir type W.



Yes, indeed. (hi ) But tridentina asked how we would say this in English. So the equivalent, imagining that we were describing an Italian who can't pronounce _his/her_ R's, might be the the translation I propose. No?


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## Einstein

elfa said:


> Yes, indeed. (hi ) But tridentina asked how we would say this in English. So the equivalent, imagining that we were describing an Italian who can't pronounce _his/her_ R's, might be the the translation I propose. No?


Well, it depends on the question!
- Why does he speak like that? Because he can't pronounce his Rs.
- What sound do Italians make if they can't pronounce their Rs? They use a French R.


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## london calling

I have a colleague who can't pronounce her Rs. The odd thing is that she doesn't speak with the classic _erre moscia_ (French R): she speaks like Elmer Fudd. I wonder how many Italians have this problem and how it would be described  (I mean apart from using the the technical term 'rotacismo').


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## elfa

Einstein said:


> What sound do Italians make if they can't pronounce their Rs? They use a French R.



Good one!


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## merquiades

Erre moscia = French r = guttural r

(S)he speaks with a guttural r.


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## elfa

merquiades said:


> (S)he speaks with a guttural r.



To me, that would be a comment on the way someone is speaking rather than the type of "r" spoken.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Werry intewesting thwead...I'm not sufficiently versed in phonetics to use the correct terminology, but for me "the French r" is sort of like like the sound one makes when gargling, "the "Italian (and Spanish) r" is when we rapidly flip the tip of the tongue against the alveolar ridge, and the "English r" is...extremely difficult (for me) to explain; it feels like it's more a result of what we do with our lips while our front teeth are placed slightly in front of the lower ones. British speakers don't pronounce "the post-vocalic r"; for example, they pronounce "hard" to rhyme with "hod" (the bricklayer's helper's tool).


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## merquiades

elfa said:


> To me, that would be a comment on the way someone is speaking rather than the type of "r" spoken.


Well, if you do not wish to make reference to an individual speaker, you could say something like, "The guttural r (similar to French) is commonplace in Turin whereas other areas in Italy have the standard rolled r."


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## Einstein

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> British speakers don't pronounce "the post-vocalic r"


Depends on the region!


ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> for example, they pronounce "hard" to rhyme with "hod" (the bricklayer's helper's tool)


but with the American vowel; the British pronunciation of "hod" doesn't sound at all like "hard".


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## london calling

Einstein said:


> - What sound do Italians make if they can't pronounce their Rs? They use a French R.


Not always. See my post 22.


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## Einstein

london calling said:


> Not always. See my post 22.


I don't know Elmer Fudd (I must be out with the out-crowd) but I can imagine. Yes, there are some Italians (a minority) who use a similar solution to English-speakers; is that the case with EF?


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## joanvillafane

Elmer Fudd is the poor schlub who never gets the better of Bugs Bunny. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd

By the way, I've heard the r moscia in Italian and it doesn't sound  (to me) at all like any sound produced by English speakers who have trouble with r.


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## chipulukusu

I have an _r moscia_, so I have a dog in this fight! 
I think Elmer Fudd's _r_  would be quite an exaggeration, a way to conceal the real problem...
When I try to say _Rimini, _I don't say _Uimini... _I don't know how to describe the sound...
I think the _French r_ is a very close imitation of my _r_ , minus the excessive stress in the French version...
But the fact is that, with my _r_, I feel much more at ease in speaking English than Italian... (unfortunately I don't know French).
If I think at how a non-rhotic British speaker pronounce _are you _or _car auction_, I think I could call my _r _a _British r_ as well!


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## TimLA

Einstein said:


> I don't know Elmer Fudd (I must be out with the out-crowd) but I can imagine. Yes, there are some Italians (a minority) who use a similar solution to English-speakers; is that the case with EF?



I introduce you to Mr. Elmer Fudd and his nemesis Bugs Bunny, both an important part of my childhood Saturday mornings.




 
You can spend more time with him on YouTube (very funny accents for Fudd and the Brooklyn accent of Mr. Wabbit).


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## sorry66

I'm a bit lost. I speak French but, unfortunately, can't roll my Rs for the life of me. 
For me, the French R is a rolled R. That's what the French do - they roll their Rs.
So are you all saying that Italians roll their Rs more than French people?! 
By the way: I'm from London and I don't pronounce the final r of 'river' but when I say 'hod', it doesn't rhyme with 'hard'.


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## Paulfromitaly

sorry66 said:


> So are you all saying that Italians roll their Rs more than French people?!


Italians who have the R moscia (like me) do.
5% of people maybe?


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## sorry66

Ok, Paul but that seems to contradict what other people are saying here.
I wish someone who understands all this - maybe you, Paul - could sum up the different Rs! (differences of opinion included)


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## alicip

To sorry: check this link out: http://www.105.net/audio/182152/L-uomo-con-la-R-moscia.html


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## TimLA

alicip said:


> To sorry: check this link out: http://www.105.net/audio/182152/L-uomo-con-la-R-moscia.html


I'm still laughing!!!!! That deserves further study!


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## alicip

TimLA said:


> I'm still laughing!!!!! That deserves further study!


Me too. Poor guy with the "erre moscia". I don't know how he can cope with all those problems.


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## Einstein

TimLA said:


> I introduce you to Mr. Elmer Fudd and his nemesis Bugs Bunny, both an important part of my childhood Saturday mornings.
> 
> View attachment 16060
> You can spend more time with him on YouTube (very funny accents for Fudd and the Brooklyn accent of Mr. Wabbit).


Thaks all for completing my education! Bugs Bunny never had a big part in my youth!


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## alicip

This one is a verrry good site: http://www.icebergproject.co/italian/2014/03/how-to-master-the-r-gn-gli-sounds-in-italian/ (please watch the video - a bay rolling his rs)  
And this one too: http://chadrunyon.com/2013/09/producing-the-alveolar-trill-or-rolled-r/


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## Alessandrino

A few years ago I was wondering the same question as the OP, and decided it was worth carrying out a quick survey among friends in the UK. Basically every one agreed that:


elfa said:


> Round these parts, we just say "he/she can't pronounce his/her r's"



Now - as Einstein puts it - it's true that 'R moscia' specifically refers to the way some Italian speakers pronounce their R's, but the thing is that there seems to be no equivalent in the English language. And I don't think this should come as a surprise. It would be quite curious if the English language had developed an idiom to describe a speech impediment that affects some Italian speakers.

When asked what to call this phenomenon, the sample surveyed offered a wide array of examples. I don't remember them all, but, among others, I can recall 'weak r', 'loose r', etc.

This is to say that I am (and I was) satisfied with Elfa's reply. I wouldn't look into this any further, as it would be pure speculation. Try to google 'Jonathan Ross can't pronounce r' (he's the most famous example of this speech impediment in the UK) and you'll realise there's no agreed nomenclature for the 'condition' itself.


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