# bird



## matakoweg

When I search the word for bird via google Translate in the different Slavic languages I see the following:
Polish ptak
Check pták
Ukrain птах

Russian птица
Bulgarian птица
Serbian птицe

It seems to me that the Russian Bulgarian and Serbian words are derived from a more basic word "ptak". Is it maybe an old form of diminutive?


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## Eirwyn

matakoweg said:


> It seems to me that the Russian Bulgarian and Serbian words are derived from a more basic word "ptak".


They're not. The stem in all these words is "-pt-", "-*ak*-", "-*ah*-" and -*ic*-" are three independent suffixes.


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## jasio

Eirwyn said:


> The stem in all these words is "-pt-"


I wonder if the same consonant cluster in πτερόν - Wiktionary - which is a root of helicopters, pterodactyls and feathers - is only a coincidence.


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## Panceltic

Slovenian has both *ptica* and *ptič*.

And yes, Proto-Slavic **pъt-* is from PIE **peth₂-* and thus cognate with *πτερόν*, *feather* etc. (source: Wiktionary)


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## ahvalj

The only clear matches are found in Baltic: Lithuanian _putė_ “chicken, bird” and Latvian _putns_ “bird”, also Lithuanian _putytis_ “young bird; young animal”. The root in Slavic is etymologically_ *put->pъt- _as well. Whether it has cognates outside Balto-Slavic, is speculative: the proposed variants aren't semantically (_*pehₐu-: _not all birds are small) or phonetically (_*pethₐ-: _hard to get the root _u_) evident.

P. S. The simple word is attested in the Old East Slavic _pъta_ “bird”.  An _n_-suffix as in Latvian in the Old Church Slavonic and Old East Slavic word _pъtenьcь_ “chick, nestling” (in Old Church Slavonic also _pъtěnьcь, _with _ě_), _*Pъtę_ with the same meaning is continued in the Ukrainian _потя_.


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## Irbis

In Slovenian, "puta" means "hen" (but more standard word for hen is "kokoš").


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## ahvalj

Irbis said:


> In Slovenian, "puta" means "hen" (but more standard word for hen is "kokoš").


Baltic has the word _pautas_ (Lithuanian), _pauts_ (Latvian), _pawtte_ (plural, Prussian) “egg”, which looks suspiciously similar (the Slovene _u_ in inherited words when not word-final can only come from proto-Slavic _*au̯_). In principle, all can represent an _o_-grade of the same root _put-, _compare _mušica<*mau̯xīkā_ and _mešica__<mъšica<*muxīkā _for _*mux-~mau̯x- _“fly”.


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## Kazimir Lenz

ahvalj said:


> Baltic has the word _pautas_ (Lithuanian), _pauts_ (Latvian), _pawtte_ (plural, Prussian) “egg”, which looks suspiciously similar (the Slovene _u_ in inherited words when not word-final can only come from proto-Slavic _*au̯_). In principle, all can represent an _o_-grade of the same root _put-, _compare _mušica<*mau̯xīkā_ and _mešica__<mъšica<*muxīkā _for _*mux-~mau̯x- _“fly”.



There is also Bulgarian _putka_ 'vulva'; another derivation of *_puta_, which also seems to allude to the older meaning of "hen", is found in _plašiputarnik '_a cowardly, unmanly man; one who talks aggressively, but is otherwise timorous_'._


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## Милан

Птицa


matakoweg said:


> When I search the word for bird via google Translate in the different Slavic languages I see the following:
> Polish ptak
> Check pták
> Ukrain птах
> Belarusian птушка
> 
> Russian птица
> Bulgarian птица
> Serbian *птицА*
> 
> It seems to me that the Russian Bulgarian and Serbian words are derived from a more basic word "ptak". Is it maybe an old form of diminutive?



Птице is the plural form.


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## ahvalj

Kazimir Lenz said:


> There is also Bulgarian _putka_ 'vulva'; another derivation of *_puta_, which also seems to allude to the older meaning of "hen", is found in _plašiputarnik '_a cowardly, unmanly man; one who talks aggressively, but is otherwise timorous_'._


See its treatment in _Български етимологичен речник_.


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## Kazimir Lenz

ahvalj said:


> See its treatment in _Български етимологичен речник_.


Yes, I'm familiar with it (on a side note, I don't find the additional alternative etymology presented there plausible, but this is probably offtopic for this thread).


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## nimak

In Bulgarian путка is an alternative form for патка, патица. In Macedonian it has a vulgar meaning only.

Also, compare the words for _"duck"_ in: Macedonian *патка (patka)*,* пајка (pajka)*; Serbo-Croatian *патка/patka *f.,* патак/patak *m.; (Ottoman) Turkish *patka*; Bulgarian *патица (patica)*,* патка (patka)*; Spanish *pata*; Old Armenian *բադ (bad)*; Persian *bat*; Arabic *baṭṭ*; Hindi *battakh* etc.


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## ahvalj

There is also the word for “partridge” that is (in non-standard orthographies for not to proliferate variants) _kuropatka_ in Russian, Belarusian and Kashubian, _kuropatva_ in Ukrainian and Polish — _koroptev_ in Czech, _kurotva_ in Upper Sorbian — and _*kuropъka>kurʲipka_ in Ukrainian and _kurapka_ (and East Slavic loan) in Lithiuanian, that is _-pat-, *-pъt-_ and either _-p-_ or perhaps an unusual reduction of *_-pъt-_.

_Этимологический словарь славянских языков_ has the lemma _*pata/*patъ,_ but suggests nothing convincing: it remains an obscure root so far.


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## DarkChild

nimak said:


> In Bulgarian путка is an alternative form for патка, патица.


Definitely not


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## nimak

DarkChild said:


> Definitely not


Wiktionary says that:

патка: More commonly _па́тица_ (pática)... 1. duck (_usually a female one_); Synonyms: ву́тка (vútka) (dialectal), пу́тка (pútka) (obsolete), шу́тка (šútka) (dialectal)
путка: 1. (obsolete) duck, fowl (typically female); Synonyms: па́тка (pátka), ву́тка (vútka) (dialectal), шу́тка (šútka) (dialectal)


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## Kazimir Lenz

nimak said:


> Wiktionary says that:
> 
> патка: More commonly _па́тица_ (pática)... 1. duck (_usually a female one_); Synonyms: ву́тка (vútka) (dialectal), пу́тка (pútka) (obsolete), шу́тка (šútka) (dialectal)
> путка: 1. (obsolete) duck, fowl (typically female); Synonyms: па́тка (pátka), ву́тка (vútka) (dialectal), шу́тка (šútka) (dialectal)



The term _putka _definitely meant "fowl, hen" once, but I think there is no actual attestation of the word in this meaning either in living dialects or older written documents. The whole entry in wiktionary is strange - the cited Proto-Slavic forms are masculine _o_- or _u_-stem nouns, for which there is no basis in any attested Slavic idioms (to my knowledge at least); _šutka _is a dialectal word for grebe, not duck or hen (it's used as an euphemism for _putka_, true); _vutka _looks like it might be a Torlakian reflex of *_ǫtŭka_ 'duck' (it shouldn't have prothetic _v_- in that case though), an entirely different word... I suspect that entry is "original research".


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## Olaszinhok

nimak said:


> Spanish *pata*


Actually, in Spanish the general term for duck is *pato* not pata .


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## nimak

Olaszinhok said:


> Actually, in Spanish the general term for duck is *pato* not pata .


I know. I purposely listed only the feminine form *pata* to keep the list and the whole post shorter and clearer. I even didn't add the masculine forms in Macedonian for the same reason.


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## DarkChild

nimak said:


> Wiktionary says that:
> 
> патка: More commonly _па́тица_ (pática)... 1. duck (_usually a female one_); Synonyms: ву́тка (vútka) (dialectal), пу́тка (pútka) (obsolete), шу́тка (šútka) (dialectal)
> путка: 1. (obsolete) duck, fowl (typically female); Synonyms: па́тка (pátka), ву́тка (vútka) (dialectal), шу́тка (šútka) (dialectal)


This is very questionable. Путка does not mean duck anywhere. It may have the same origin but that's way back in time. It's never meant duck in literature or anything for it to be called an "obsolete" term for duck.

Now патка (duck) has taken on the meaning of penis in recent years, possibly due to the similarity in sound to путка.


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