# Breaking the laws - media and copyright infringement



## sureño

I’ve seen that sharing cable TV is a common practice in many Argentina’s neighborhoods. I mean…an owner is the one who is subscribed at the company, and then he/she shares it with at least another neighbor or more. The cost is generally sharing too, although front to the company only the subscribed one is responsible. 
Another common practice is to sell copied CD’s. People are selling and buying them in anywhere. 
I’ve just mentioned two things that popped into my mind right now, but surely there are more.
Of course these things are illegal, and there are commercials TV warning these are a punished crime. But seemingly people don’t care so much.
My question is then: How do work these kinds of things in other countries?


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## ernest_

I don't know much about sharing cable or satellite TV, other than broadcasters have developed strong anti-piracy measures. Some years ago, it was possible to build your own decoder (TV signal is broadcast encrypted) with ordinary bits and pieces available at stores. But you needed a special code for the device to work, and said code could change at anytime, rendering your home-made decoder totally useless. You had to stay tuned to the Internet until someone could find out the new code and then change it. But now it's more difficult, and I don't know if anyone is actually capable of decoding the signal by their own means.


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## danielfranco

Are you asking how to break the law in different countries? I don't get it… 

I mean, it's not like I'm going to tell you. People might think I do those things… The FBI would use this thread as evidence.



D


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## Mahaodeh

I think the question is "how do people feel about breaking such laws", mainly copyright laws.
 
I know that in most Arab countries it was not perceived as a crime or even immoral until recently; and still many people insist that it's not immoral to copy copyrighted material even though it's against the law.
 
However, cable TV is not common at all and people just buy a satellite and receiver and that's it, you don't need to pay any more. But I do know that there still are some people that copy CDs, both for film and music and for programmes (and coming up with ingenious ways to do that!); they even copy books.
 
But I think it just boils down to education. My sister is a teacher in a public school, her supervisor asked her to copy an entire book several copies and distribute it to the students! My sister was unable to convince her supervisor that it’s against the law until she actually went to a lawyer and borrowed a copy of the copyright regulations in the UAE and showed it to her! The supervisor (an old generation teacher, which is now a grandmother) finally understood it was against the law but could not understand why.


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## mirx

sureño said:


> I’ve seen that sharing cable TV is a common practice in many Argentina’s neighborhoods. I mean…an owner is the one who is subscribed at the company, and then he/she shares it with at least another neighbor or more. The cost is generally sharing too, although front to the company only the subscribed one is responsible.
> Another common practice is to sell copied CD’s. People are selling and buying them in anywhere.
> I’ve just mentioned two things that popped into my mind right now, but surely there are more.
> Of course these things are illegal, and there are commercials TV warning these are a punished crime. But seemingly people don’t care so much.
> My question is then: How do work these kinds of things in other countries?


 

The CD counterfeit thing is in the decline in México, it was a big thing 8 years ago but now people do it themselves in their own homes, so no need to go and buy a face CD off anyone else when we have mp3 players, and virtually all music is now nothing but an electronic file.

Even if people don't have a computer or internet at home, they will surely know somebody who does and who will gladly burn them CDs for free, or pass them the music files through some means. In the last case people can still go to a Cyber-cafe and download their own music.

The cable-sharing thing is not very common but I knew of at least 2 people who did it, and they took all precautions not to be discovered. Illegally acquiring satellite TV was another thing altogether, most of us have no idea of how to de-code whatever it is that this people encode, what some people did was buy cheaper satellites from the same employees that worked for Sky and DirecTV. However people who did this usually kept it to themselves and not brag about it like it seems to be the case in Argentina.

Shift it back!!!, It is indeed very common.I can't believe I forgot it but we had "shared" cable in my own house for some time a few years ago.


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## clipper

I confess to not understanding the logic behind cable TV sharing. Surely if only one person has the decoder than he/she chooses what channel to watch, and when to change it ! Not very convenient...

Here in Spain a slightly dubious practice exists among some expats from the UK who contract a satelite TV service in the UK, then dismantle it, bring it to their Spanish property and reinstall it, therefore being able to watch programs which are in theory only available in the UK. I believe this is technically illegal because it infringes the broadscast rights, particularly of sporting events, these people are usually paying the subscription in the UK though.

The sale of pirate CDs and DVDs in Spain is very common. Its difficult to go out to any bar or restaurant without being offered counterfeit discs by wandering sellers. There is a visible effort from the police to cut down on this but its so widespread it has little effect. The quality of the copies is very poor however, I'm constantly suprised that there is a market for them due to the quality issues more than for the moral or legal issues.


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## mirx

clipper said:


> I confess to not understanding the logic behind cable TV sharing. Surely if only one person has the decoder than he/she chooses what channel to watch, and when to change it ! Not very convenient...


 
Most Mexican families have several TVS, usually one per bedroom so of course we are able to switch between different channels in different TVS with only one contract. If the neighbour wants to share it, it will be just like having another few TVs in the house.

With satellite TV one needs (I think) one decoder for each TV if you want them to work independently, so is still cheaper to get a de-coder in a one-off payment than to hire the whole package and pay individual rents each month.


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## Chaska Ñawi

In Canada, everybody and their dog seems to have cable or satellite.... except our family.  (Strangely enough, our kids don't even bother to moan about it.)  I haven't heard of anybody sharing cable, but this is rural Ontario, after all; most of our neighbours get their TV fix by satellite.

I saw all sorts of pirated CDs in Bolivia, but don't see them here.  That isn't to say that there isn't piracy.  Many people download music through shareware such as Limewire, and copy it onto their iPods or similar systems.  

(When I was growing up, we just taped songs we were too cheap to buy off the radio.)

I don't think that the respect for copyright is any more, or less, than it was then; or here than it is in Latin America.

Perhaps you don't hear of video copyright infringement as much as audio, because everybody can watch anything they want on YouTube anyway ... at least until somebody catches on, whereupon everybody just seems to wait until somebody else reposts it.


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## sureño

danielfranco said:


> Are you asking how to break the law in different countries? I don't get it…


No exactamente eso Daniel (creo que en español nos entenderemos mejor). 
El espíritu del post, es intentar comprender los mecanismos que hacen que los individuos actúen en masa. En otras palabras, entender por qué los individuos tienden a comportarse en concordancia con su entorno. Entonces, si los demás delinquen yo también lo hago. Creo que hay una especie de ‘contagio’ similar al que existe con las tonadas (acentos) de las diferentes regiones. 
O para que veamos que es verdad el dicho que dice “En el país que fueres has lo que vieres” (o su inglés equivalente “ When in Roma do what the Romans do”) 

P.S. Thank you Chaska for the adding. I think it clarifies a little this post


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## danielfranco

Ah, ya veo. Gracias por la explicación. Hay días que amanezco tonto, y otros, también.

Supongo que es como en la carretera: El límite de velocidad muy bien puede ser de cincuenta kilómetros por hora, pero si todos los demás transitan al doble de esa velocidad, lo más probable es que uno también lo haga.

—Pero, señor policía, yo nomás iba igual de recio que los otros cuates…

Semejante excusa nunca me ha salvado de multas ni arrestos…
D


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## Forero

I have seen everything from people trying to get free movies because they think it is a necessity of life to people paying high fees for television loaded with commercial "messages".

I have heard that the creators of works of art are getting almost nothing for the art itself, and musicians are sometimes disallowed from performing their own compositions.  Obviously the Mona Lisa is worth more than any number of digital copies of the Mona Lisa.  Making one more copy is not robbing the Louvre or Da Vinci's heirs, and bears little resemblance to robbing and pillaging on the high seas.

It is truly confusing: all manner of incompatible "rate plans", "service" fees, taxes for unknown purposes, companies charging high prices for cheap gizmos and cheap entertainment; some people actually believing everything "ought to" be free.  Sometimes young people copy CDs just because it is "forbidden".  Are the prices high and the rates confusing because some people want it all for free, or are people rebellious because the prices are high and the rates confusing?

Somewhere in all of this mess has got to be a reasonable way to trade money for things of equal value and for artists to get an appropriate amount of money for their works.  There needs to be a way for artists, marketers, and consumers young and old to know what is actually being paid for, with prices tied to actual value.

I expect things eventually to normalize, but for now, even within each state of the U.S., things are chaotic indeed.


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## sureño

ernest_ said:


> But you needed a special code for the device to work, and said code could change at anytime, rendering your home-made decoder totally useless.


Well…the same here with satellite TV, but with cable TV things are still more accessible. 
I’ve seen here felonies worse than just sharing cable TV. Some people plugged the net passing by front their houses. Now I think it doesn’t happen anymore because the companies have developed inviolable systems. 
The only punishment they got (when they were discovered) was cut off the illegal connection. 
Piracy with CD’s, books, and anything else is so common. 
I think there are not legislation for many of these kinds of “new transgressions”. 
Anyway people know how the justice works here. So no one worry too much about.


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## Miguelillo 87

Well just addin more than Mirx had already said; TV Cable ans Satellite TV, Nowadays is very difficult to "share" it. For the saltellitalone you need an special antenna ; many years ago, you calud have Cable televison and share it with your neighborhoods or to have the system in all the tv's of your home, We use to have 6 TV with its own signal, but now they have a code, so you only can have this signal in One TV if u want it in mor than one you need this item. 

So now it's more expensive and more complicated to "share" tv signal. 

Anyway many people who have Cable or satelite, always watch more the channels everybody can watch in the "TV Abierta"  

About the CD Issues, Here it's so common to sell movies, cds, tennis shoes, clothes etc, etc in the PIRATA version.

So it's really difficult try to fight against it; Personal I don't buy almost any of this products; but sometimes all the slasa ans cumbia music YES!!! Because it's more comfortable to get it in the subway than ot go to a musicl store. 

The problem besides the low price it's the common ans easy way you can get one of those products.


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## Bilma

Mr. Bill Gates would have a heart atack if he visited some of our Mexican "computer tianguis" where you can find all kinds of software at a very reasonable prices....


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## tvdxer

Mahaodeh said:


> I think the question is "how do people feel about breaking such laws", mainly copyright laws.
> 
> I know that in most Arab countries it was not perceived as a crime or even immoral until recently; and still many people insist that it's not immoral to copy copyrighted material even though it's against the law.




Same as in the U.S., more or less.  

Part of the reason might be that illegal downloads and CD copies and the like are relatively new things, and also that intellectual property is a fairly abstract concept.  Up to recent, there has also been a lack of clarity regarding copyright laws.  For example, many thought (and probably still think) it is legal to make copies of CDs or movies for your friends as long as you don't charge them money.  

What society views as right and wrong (and perhaps laws, and also content producers) have not really kept up with technology.  Originally it was difficult to pirate anything, simply for lack of recording equipment.  Then cassette tapes (audio and video) became very popular in the 80's, and shortly after home computers and floppy disks, but piracy was limited due to the physical nature of distribution and the hassle of copying an entire tape.  Then in the late 90's, almost at once, household internet access became very common, new computers started shipping with CD-R drives, and programs popped up allowing users to easily copy their CDs to their hard drive, compress them, and share them over the internet, without advanced technical knowledge.  All of a sudden, your average person, hardly aware of any wrongdoing, could share a song with 800 other people.  And soon after that broadband access became almost ubiquitous, and users were able to share bandwidth-heavy content like movies and software.


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## Sepia

I wonder what you'd all think if somebody copied your works without paying for it?

Did you know that the turnover made with ring-tones for cell-phones is larger than that made in conventional marketing of music?


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## Etcetera

Hola sureño!


sureño said:


> My question is then: How do work these kinds of things in other countries?


I've never heard of anyone sharing cable TV, but selling copied CDs and DVDs is really common here. I have the impression that in recent years more and more people are buying legal CDs and DVDs, as they're becoming cheaper. Only a few years ago many people just couldn't afford to pay for a licensed CD or video cassette.


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## Miguelillo 87

Etcetera said:


> Hola sureño!
> 
> I've never heard of anyone sharing cable TV, but selling copied CDs and DVDs is really common here. I have the impression that in recent years more and more people are buying legal CDs and DVDs, as they're becoming cheaper. Only a few years ago many people just couldn't afford to pay for a licensed CD or video cassette.


 
In avarage Which is the cost of the legal one and the ilegal? I know it depends on the artist and his/her fame but just as an avarage.

For example here in Mexico I could say The legal ones are between 150 and 250 pesos. (15 to 25 usd) 

And ALL the "piratas" ilegals cost 10 pesos!!!! (one buck, 1 usd) Movies and Music CD's all cost the same, some 15 pesos, if they are new releases or have a better copy format, but doesn't matter if it is a Madonna disc or an old Britney Spears disc, ALL cost 1 dollar. 

Software is different it depends on the demand I suppose.

About videocassetes, Are they still sell in Russia???!!! Here u only can find them in some malls or supermarkets but as sales off. Almost nobody buy it.


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## Etcetera

Miguelillo 87 said:


> In avarage Which is the cost of the legal one and the ilegal? I know it depends on the artist and his/her fame but just as an avarage.


Legal disks may cost from 10 to 25 USD, but I have no idea how much illegal copies may cost.



> About videocassetes, Are they still sell in Russia???!!!


The last time I've seen video cassettes being sold was more than a year ago, at a small shop where you could take video cassettes and DVDs on hire - they were selling off old cassettes. 

DVDs are now so popular that I'm afraid children who are now less than 5 years old, won't even know what a video cassette looks like


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## Miguelillo 87

Etcetera said:


> Legal disks may cost from 10 to 25 USD, but I have no idea how much illegal copies may cost.


 
I knew Russia was one fo the countries, togheter China and my country, Mexico, where ilegal products ( more Cd ans DVD) had a great "succes" sO 
Am I wrong? Here on Mexico there are tianguis "markets" where you can find 5 or 6 stands full of ilegal DVD and CD items; even there are MARKETS 100% ilegal products 





> DVDs are now so popular that I'm afraid children who are now less than 5 years old, won't even know what a video cassette looks like


 
Same happens here, My littel cousins just kno DVD, one day my aunt show him a videocassete to one of my cousins ans She told him, it was a movie, He said, "From where do  I get the dvd OF THIS BOX!!!"


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## Etcetera

Miguelillo 87 said:


> Am I wrong? Here on Mexico there are tianguis "markets" where you can find 5 or 6 stands full of ilegal DVD and CD items; even there are MARKETS 100% ilegal products


 You're right, Miguelillo.
Tables full of illegal CDs and DVDs are the most usual thing here (well, at least in Moscow and St Petersburg). 
And it seems that most legal software in Russia is used on notebooks which are usually sold with it - most owners of PCs prefer to install pirate copies of Windows, Microsoft Office, Photoshop and other programs. The reason is that legal discs cost too much, and in most cases pirate software would work just as fine. 



> Same happens here, My littel cousins just kno DVD, one day my aunt show him a videocassete to one of my cousins ans She told him, it was a movie, He said, "From where do  I get the dvd OF THIS BOX!!!"


Oh, that's really nice!


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## Словеса

I think it's not a moral issue. It's an economical issue: producers of music, books, software etc don't produce some other things, so there needs be a way to force other people to make such things and to provide first people with a share of rights on such things; otherwise, obviously, music, books, or software could not be done, the authors would starve to death or live in impossible misery. Nothing about 'theft', just pragmatism. (I think that there are only personal morals, there is no such thing as civilian morals).
What I really don't understand is why should we pay money to authors who have died. Is this done to prevent murders?


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## Словеса

Словеса said:


> (I think that there are only personal morals, there is no such thing as civilian morals).


By the way, not on-topic, but a very interesting and rather short note: in my opinion, this line of separation is the root and the essence of the present quarrel between Russia from one side and Europe and US from the other side. In my humble opinion, this line is not based on some kind of mystical values, as both their proponents and their opponents seem to think; it is very concrete, its mystery stems only from lack of analysis. The cornerstone of the Western political thinking, some kind of the idea of "social contract", is very difficult to build on the base of strictly personal morals; not impossible, in my opinion, but difficult. So, the idea of civilian morals (it is moral when people respect each other's rights) comes in handy. Among Russians, those ideas of "social contract" are often, in my view, simply not understood even by those who declare to condivide them. The handy idea of civilian morals is not grasped either, they are interpreted rather in personal terms, like fairness, happiness, which, per their nature, are not run by rules of democracy or by legal bounds. However, manifestations of such idea of civilian morals, of its use as a shortcut to achieve a specific social goal, may indeed be perceived as an assault on personal freedom by Russians and even as a threat; a somewhat similar reaction is caused in people who defend the "Western model". Thus, people from both "worlds" happen to feel uneasy and even upset about each other's "worlds"; that is a "rational" part of the background behind the tone of talking (I leave out politics, of course). This thinking — that all moral motivation may follow only from inside the person — quite explains origination of all bits of rhetorics that are used by the defenders of the "Russian model", from its focus on multiculturality (and its political counterparts, "multipolarity" and "souvereignty") to its focus on social importance of "spirituality", i.e. (if in proper terms) considering a human not simply a willful subject of thought, but an object of (religious, artistical) analysis as well. Those bits are then, naturally, repeated and grotesquely multiplied by those people who cannot be called really spiritual etc, so, taken together, the talks make a very strange effect, often opposite to the common sense.

Back on topic, these specifics of the Russian context do not make the situation in Russia with public relation to pirated software, music, films, and books any different than in any other country: a major part of the population thinks that pirated goods are okay, the government thinks otherwise. It seems, judging by this thread, that the situation is the same in other countries.


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## irinet

[QUOTE\] What I really don't understand is why should we pay money to authors who have died. Is this done to prevent murders? [/QUOTE]
Hi, 
As long as we or  the generations to come read a book or listen to music /lyrics of the long-passed away authors,  I think that we/the next generation should still pay.  After all,  books are reprinted and songs are re-edited,  am I right?

Other than that,  the Android gives anyone the chance to have music or books for free.  I suppose the copyright taxes are somewhere in the price of the phones or nearer.


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## Packard

My friend worked at an engineering office on Long Island (New York).  The business bought one CAD program (Computer Aided Drawing) that cost about $12,000.00.  Additional users required an additional license of about one half that amount.  Instead the company made many copies of the program and distributed it to its engineers.

Their mistake was firing one of the engineers who immediately called AutoCad (the program's designer) and they called the FBI and the FBI agents came in and took all of the computers out of the building to examine them.  There was some huge fine and other payments rumored to be in excess of $500,000.00.  Certainly the FBI investigation must have cost in excess of $100,000.  

So sometimes there is a hit for the good guys (even if it means someone gets fired first).


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## irinet

It's similar here with Microsoft, but we have moved to the business  of licences,  contract deals and intermediaries with those stories.


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