# Society: Toilet Paper and Personal Hygiene



## andersxman

I don't know what to believe about this:

I can't remember where, but I believe that I've heard someone say that if the Chinese were to start using toiletpaper disastrous consequences for the environment would ensue. (Ostensibly because of the enourmous amount of timber required to produce all that toiletpaper)

Is this a ridicoulous statement? Do the Chinese use toiletpaper? if not, what do they do? How about the Indians?


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## badgrammar

In mmany countries, people use soap and water to clean themselves after going to the bathroom.  In Turkey, for example, a small water nozzle is integrated into most toilet seats for cleansing, or if there is not, then you will find a pitcher of water next to the toilet for that purpose (asin India).  Even as a Westerner, I find these systems quite workable.

It is a much cleaner and more economic system than toilet paper, and indeed, should the Chinese all begin using TP, that's a lot of paper down the can...


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## southerngal

badgrammar said:
			
		

> In mmany countries, people use soap and water to clean themselves after going to the bathroom. In Turkey, for example, a small water nozzle is integrated into most toilet seats for cleansing, or if there is not, then you will find a pitcher of water next to the toilet for that purpose (asin India). Even as a Westerner, I find these systems quite workable.


 
I agree that it does sound cleaner.  However, one slightly embarrassing question:  how does one dry the, um, area after washing?


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## .   1

I have read that there are records of the number and size of paper delivered to each emperor in ancient China for use as toilet paper.

I think the concept of wiping myself clean with a dry piece of tissue to be very incomplete and generally wash with water.

A bidet is a very clever idea.

.,,


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## saturnian

This may well be a horrible urban myth, but I've heard that people from the Indian subcontinent traditionally wipe "that area" with their left hand (toilet paper-less (and environmentally friendly, of course)) and so only shake hands with their right hand... True?


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## panjabigator

Oh Saturnian...you opened a can of worms...well a small one actually!  When I was younger, I would eat my traditional Indian food in New York with both hands...to the dismay of everyone in my family.  I would repeatedly argue that all my hamburger-eating friends used two hands, and then my parents would remark that I am not them, nor should I be raised that way.  It made no sense to me!

Anyway, I later grew up to discover (and I was only eating with my right hand mind you) that in India, you eat with your right and clean with your left.  A lot of places in the village do not have soap!  So there's your answer!  

I have been to India twice, and the first time I went I was 7.  I had to squat at use the bathroom, in both the cities and villages.  There was a water pump or a little bucket of water to finish the dirty deed.  I do not remember how I dried myself honestly, and frankly, I was miserable with stomach problems so I don't really want to recall that time.  In 2003, 11 years later, I went again.  A lot had changed...there were proper toilets everywhere...even in the village.  I used toilet paper...Im almost positive of it.  

Cleaning with water is better though...you get that nice CLEAN feeling!


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## Suane

I seriously never heard about that! (I don't know how that could happen ) But it's a good idea, but you have to probably get used to it, when you have used toilett paper since you remembered. It's very ecological and probably cleaner. Maybe not so practical, but maybe that's only my feeling, since I always use a toilett paper.
 My question is (as someone other has asked): How do people then dry themselves and also if it is in form of bidet or hand shower?


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## Suane

Cool and interesting site about toilets all over the world>>> http://www.cromwell-intl.com/toilet/ http://worldtoilet.info/


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## andersxman

So it wuold appear that the chinese and indians may not even be, after all, interested in beginning to use toilet paper? They have their own way of going about it, and consider our way of handling it less clean, maybe?


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## badgrammar

Well, no actually...  I think that as countries become more westernized, they tend to aspire towards occidental conventions, shunning their "old-fashioned" habits, which may actually be superior to ours.

I assure you, you will find toilet paper in most wc's in India that are for tourist use (I'm not talking about wc's meant for locals), there will atleast be an attendant who will hand you a piece before you enter the wc, expecting a small tip in return.  In Turkey, most places for tourists also have toilet paper (being generally more modern than Indian facilities).  I don't know about China though.

I found it interesting that in Turkey, public restrooms are generally very clean, although occasionally quite old constructions.


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## Brioche

Perhaps we should try to keep as many people as possible illiterate. 

The average Westerner consumes more trees in newspapers than she does in toilet paper. And that is not counting magazines, advertising flyers, &c, &c.


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## panjabigator

And let me tell you, people must have some strong calf muscles to squat and go!  My 91 year old great grandmother couldn't go upstairs or walk far from her house but she was fine at using the bathroom, and it wasn't the sitting kind either!


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## la reine victoria

In the coastal villages of Iran, back in the late 60s/early 70s, the Persian Gulf was used as a lavatory for depositing your "biggies".  Men, women and children would squat at the water's edge and "let go".  Afterwards they washed themselves clean with sea water and dried themselves on their baggy-gussetted trousers.

We had the luxury of our own lavs with proper, soft toilet tissue;  this, however, was strictly rationed and handed out by the quarter-master two sheets at a time.  Personal shopping lists for the weekly trip to Bushire (the nearest largish town) always had "Kleenex" tissues at the top.  Four of us would shop for 36 people, plus buying in enough fruit and veg to feed us all for a week.

The lavs (three) were just holes, below which was a very deep communal pit.  Privacy was at a premium - the noises were something which had to be heard to be believed!    The occasional sack of powdered chemical was shovelled in to damp down the odour.  Gigantic cockroaches (as big as your hand) used to lurk under the rim of the holes and, if you were unlucky, their feelers would tickle your bum.    No wonder our site photographer (a squeamish female) went, quite literally, insane and had to be jetted home to a psychiatric unit in England.

By the by, the ducks which we were raising for Christmas dinner arrived one evening in the chef's landrover.  He foolishly released them in the courtyard; it was pitch dark and, you've guessed it, they made a bolt for the lavs and disappeared into the murky depths.  Three of us bravely volunteered to rescue them using very long poles and nets - it took us several hours.  They (and we) were immersed in the waters of the Gulf for cleansing, such as it was.   

Before swimming in the Gulf we had to sign an insurance document saying that we swam "at our own risk" because there was a great danger of being eaten by sharks.    To be honest, sharks were the least of our problems (although we spotted many).  The things which bobbed along on the surface ensured that we always kept our mouths well and truly shut!

Now, revealing an intimate secret, I always keep a supply of baby wipes in my bathroom for personal cleansing.  They are wonderful.  Visitors to my home always comment on them saying "What a good idea."

If I am "out of stock" then I perch on the edge of the bath and use one of my two shower hoses and soap.

"Cleanliness is next to Godliness".





LRV


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## Chaska Ñawi

Brioche said:
			
		

> Perhaps we should try to keep as many people as possible illiterate.
> 
> The average Westerner consumes more trees in newspapers than she does in toilet paper. And that is not counting magazines, advertising flyers, &c, &c.



When I was growing up, many of our neighbours still used outhouses.  They never, ever bought toilet paper .... who needed it when there was the Saturday newspaper and the Eaton's catalogue?  I was fine with the newspaper, but still remember the uncomfortable scratchy feeling of the Eaton's catalogues.

In the South Pacific, people did their business in the sea.  In many other parts of the developing world, pigs provide a cleanup service after the event.  You try to keep them away from your behind and do the job yourself with a smooth stone or stick, but they are quite eager to assist you in this job too.  This has been a tragedy for many little boys - a few in China have had reconstructive surgery, but I suspect that they're the tip of the iceberg.

Moderation Note:  I've changed the title of this thread, rather than inviting people to stay on topic.  This is an interesting discussion, and I don't think that we need to or should stay strictly within the parameters of China and India .... but please stay within the idea of personal hygiene here.


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## la reine victoria

Your mention of pigs doing the cleaning up, Chaska, reminds me of African tribes.  You never see their babies' bottoms swathed in diapers/nappies.  Instead, the dogs come along and lick them clean!

I well remember, as a child in post-war London, our outhouse.  It was lit with a small paraffin lamp and the chill was taken off the air in winter by means of a small oil-stove.

Squares of newspaper were pierced at a corner, string was threaded through and the whole lot hung on a nail on the wall.  This provided oddments of reading matter as one sat there "trying one's best".  My mother sent us there whether we needed to go or not.  Every Friday we had to report (truthfully) on the number of times we'd "been".  If the required standard hadn't been reached then we were dosed with syrup of figs.  Severe cases got the castor oil treatment.  Yuk!  

Occasionally my mother would find a lavatory paper called "San Izal" - it was impregnated with a horrible disinfectant which smelled like tarmacadum.  Unless you gave it a good scrunch and rub before use, to soften it, you risked severe lacerations to your tender bits.  It was so crisp and semi-transparent that I used it for tracing maps for my geography homework!

The best paper of all was that in which oranges used to be wrapped.  A visit to the local fruit and vegetable market was very entertaining as people almost came to blows in their efforts to scavenge this tissue paper.  It was a true luxury.




LRV


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## timebomb

I'm Chinese and for as long as I can remember, I've always used toilet paper.  Heck, I thought we invented it.  I remember the characters in the book, "Shogun" by James Clavell mentioned that people in the East were already using toilet paper to clean themselves when the barbarians in the West don't even clean at all.  I could be wrong though.  My memory isn't what it used to be.

Anyway, these days, I use both paper and water.  It's far more hygienic.  I paper first and wash afterwards.  You should try it.  It's so refreshing.  Drying isn't a problem at all when you're at home as there are always towels around in the bathroom.  Just don't use the one you wash your face with  

Loh K L


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## maxiogee

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> "Cleanliness is next to Godliness".



Not in any of the dictionaries I own!

I still remember (usually with a shudder!) the toilet-paper of my youth. Shiny on one side and cheese-graterish on the other. Uuuuuuugggghhh!


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## fenixpollo

In Mexico and other Central and South American countries, many people dispose of toilet paper not in the toilet, but in the garbage can (related thread).  Pleurrrgh!

Nobody has answered the question to my satisfaction: if you wash with water, how do you dry?   Air dry?  A cloth towel dedicated to that purpose?


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## Bilma

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> In Mexico and other Central and South American countries, toilet paper is not disposed of in the toilet, but in the garbage can (related thread). Pleurrrgh!
> 
> Nobody has answered the question: if you wash with water, how do you dry?


 

I have never disposed of the toilet paper in a garbage can always in the toilet!  Maybe it is just my family and friends.....


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## geve

This thread is fascinating. I was born with manufactured soft toilet tissue, I feel I know nothing of life! 


			
				fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Nobody has answered the question: if you wash with water, how do you dry?


Actually there have been two answers: towel in post #16, baggy-gussetted trousers in post #13 - it probably doesn't cover all situations though!

I have seen toilet paper being disposed of in garbage cans in other countries (I can't remember where, but it was not in South or Central America) It might not be a country feature, I would think it depends on how the evacuation system works...


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## la reine victoria

Hi Geve, ma chère!

I have had to put toilet-paper into bins in Greece, Sardinia and . . . . . wait for it . . . . .  a café-bar in Brittany!  It was a long time ago when they had an outdoor squat lavatory with a cesspit.  Now  they have all mod cons with a lovely throne for the royal posterior.    Bliss!  And very soft paper too.  




Regards,
LRV


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## fenixpollo

geve said:
			
		

> Actually there have been two answers: towel in post #16, baggy-gussetted trousers in post #13 - it probably doesn't cover all situations though!
> 
> I have seen toilet paper being disposed of in garbage cans in other countries (I can't remember where, but it was not in South or Central America) It might not be a country feature, I would think it depends on how the evacuation system works...


 I think it also depends on custom, and popular belief (now outmoded) that the evacuation system can't handle the paper.

As far as answering the "how to dry" question, I only saw one person post about a towel, and another person mention loose-fitting garments. _Must....not....vomit...._

Just to remind myself that my way is not superior, I have to remember that no matter how well one wipes or with what method, and no matter how well one washes out their underwear, even clean underwear can contain between .1g and 10g of fecal residue. (source: the Hypochondriac's Handbook)

Another factoid: the maximum flush radius of a commercial toilet in the US is 13 feet. 

Do we have an emoticon for "nasty"?


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## panjabigator

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> In Mexico and other Central and South American countries, many people dispose of toilet paper not in the toilet, but in the garbage can (related thread).  Pleurrrgh!
> 
> Nobody has answered the question to my satisfaction: if you wash with water, how do you dry?   Air dry?  A cloth towel dedicated to that purpose?



I just asked my father just for you!!!  He said that it depended upon where we was.   If he is in the city, and he had to use a squat type toilet, then he would use water to splash himself clean.  I asked him how we would dry himself.  He smiled and laughed at me.  There is no drying!  You run around with a wet but!


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## timpeac

How do the proponents of "water-washing" cope with the phenomenon of the tug-nut - the occasional little bit left behind?


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## panjabigator

That is where your hand comes in Tim.  

Just thinking about this makes me want to wash my hands!!!


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## timpeac

panjabigator said:
			
		

> That is where your hand comes in Tim.
> 
> Just thinking about this makes me want to wash my hands!!!


Aaagh, the answer I feared!


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## a lonely angel

In my religion, you have to clean your self by water if it is possible.
 So, we wash by water and then we can be dry by using the tissue.


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## TimLA

Similar to the ealier post with the pictures of toilets, at The Bathroom Diaries, you can look up bathrooms around the world and even review them!


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## danielfranco

Thinking about using water and soap to clean oneself after defecating instead of toilet paper, I am amazed that no one has talked about the advantage/difficulty of long fingernails.
My lurid imagination makes me think that long fingernails must be of great help in those instances of "hesitant turds" that kind of just linger. However, any false or sudden moves are to be feared, I must say...

Supposedly, the Romans had running water in their WC's and sponges on a stick to serve the purpose of TP. I wonder how many uses they got out of the sponges before the public demanded a new one...


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## .   1

danielfranco said:
			
		

> Supposedly, the Romans had running water in their WC's and sponges on a stick to serve the purpose of TP. I wonder how many uses they got out of the sponges before the public demanded a new one...


Excavations along Hadrian's Wall revealed that Roman soldiers had personal washing sticks and I imagine that the general populace also possessed their own.

.,,


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## danielfranco

. said:
			
		

> Excavations along Hadrian's Wall revealed that Roman soldiers had personal washing sticks and I imagine that the general populace also possessed their own.
> 
> .,,


 
Cool, then. I wonder how many uses each person got out of a sponge before it smeared more than it wiped.


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## natasha2000

What a topic you have here!  Guess that with the summer heat we all flip out a little bit in out heads...

Talking about toilet paper... As far as I know, Muslims do that with water. I heard many times from our men after serving military service (in good old Yugoslavia), that there was always a bottle of water in WC because of Albanians...



			
				. said:
			
		

> Excavations along Hadrian's Wall revealed that Roman soldiers had personal washing sticks and I imagine that the general populace also possessed their own.
> 
> .,,


 
Can you explain this a little bit? How can one possibly clean oneself with a STICK???? 

Daniel, long nails are only impediment to good wipping off whatever has to be wipped off... 

On the other hand, I wonder how all those kings and queens cleaned themselves after "doing it" while paper was too expensive to be wasted on such things...


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## timpeac

danielfranco said:
			
		

> Thinking about using water and soap to clean oneself after defecating instead of toilet paper, I am amazed that no one has talked about the advantage/difficulty of long fingernails.
> My lurid imagination makes me think that long fingernails must be of great help in those instances of "hesitant turds" that kind of just linger. However, any false or sudden moves are to be feared, I must say...


Isn't it the point of those Asian people (Chinese?) who are really rich and allow their nails to grow and grow until they curl round etc that they are "saying I am so rich I have someone to do everything for me - and I mean _everything_!".


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## natasha2000

Oh my God, Timpaec! 

Everything?

So, for Chinese the saying "I go to the place where even kings go alone" does not mean anything?


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## Seana

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> ...the summer heat we all flip out a little bit in out heads... (...)


 
Oh, yes I am afraid you are right.

STICK????
I am curious were they one-time or multiple use. 

I also learnt something very strange- the Islamic way Apostle of God used to clean himself after defecation using only odd number of stones. That is the sunna (examples set by Muhammad).
So, Muslims living in U.S. can go to Home Depot and buy a bag of gravel for this purpose.

In James Clavell novel "King Rat" I have read about using water to clean oneself after defecating by British, Australian and American prisoners of war WWII in Singapore notorious Changi Prison camp.
Although it was very strange for me I have appreciated their ingeniousness in keeping hygiene and the health in extreme conditions survival.


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## la reine victoria

danielfranco said:
			
		

> Cool, then. I wonder how many uses each person got out of a sponge before it smeared more than it wiped.


 

I believe it was a case of wipe, wipe, rinse in the running water, squeeze and wipe again.  Repeat until the sponge is clean.

Archaeological evidence from Coppergate, York, shows that mediaeval people used mosses for wiping.  A sensible choice.  

For the most humorous description of this topic nothing beats Rabelais' "Gargantua and Pantagruel".  The chapter headed -

"How Grandgousier realized Gargantua's marvellous intelligence, by his invention of an Arse-wipe."

Gargantua tried an enormous variety of things and concluded that nothing was better than a live goose.    Honk honk! 




LRV


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## la reine victoria

> Seana
> On the other hand, I wonder how all those kings and queens cleaned themselves after "doing it" while paper was too expensive to be wasted on such things...


 
Hi Seana,

I imagine they used pieces of linen which could be washed, dried and re-used.  Cloth has always been plentiful.

Pity the poor laundry maid.  




LRV


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## maxiogee

Is this a place to ask a question which has flitted across my mind from time to time?
How do blind people know when they have wiped fully?


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## panjabigator

Well, I am not blind, but I have a gut feeling when things aren't quite right.   But unless you examine the paper/spunge/muddy water or use a mirror you'll never know if you ever fully clean.


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## natasha2000

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Is this a place to ask a question which has flitted across my mind from time to time?
> How do blind people know when they have wiped fully?


 
by smell, I guess....

It is well known that blind pople develop in an extraordinary way other senses.


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## meltem

I never get why people in the modern world where there's the possibility of water systems still insist on using just toilet paper after doing their big thing/dirt (don't know the appropriate word). When I was in europe, I found it so disturbing to have to use just tissue to clean because you have to use really a lot of tissue in order to feel clean and still I didn't feel very clean. My eyes always searched for a pipe but there was no.
But I don't like the idea of using my hands sas well so what I do if you let me explain is opening the water pipe and letting the water clean me by itself, then I just use a little bit of tissue to dry, and this way I feel both my hands and that place clean.


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## natasha2000

meltem said:
			
		

> I never get why people in the modern world where there's the possibility of water systems still insist on using just toilet paper after doing their big thing/dirt (don't know the appropriate word).


 
I guess because the only comfortable way to clean oneself with water would be using bidet. And unfortunatelly, I think that very few houses in general have bidet, and half of those who have it, don't use it. If I had it in my little bathroom, I assure you I would use it.  

On the other hand, I don't think it would be so viable to put bidets in all WC, in each restaurant, bar, bank, or whereever there are WC.


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## Seana

meltem said:
			
		

> My eyes always searched for a pipe but there was no.


I see it is common thing in place where you live. I have never seen this intallations. Is it alike bidet appliance? If you don't mind would you find a picture of it.



			
				maxiogee said:
			
		

> How do blind people know when they have wiped fully?


I am sure none is able to see it even if is eagle-eyed.


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## badgrammar

The system where Meltem is from is quite ingenious and cheap to install.  There is a small metal pipe under the rim of the toilet (no, you don't risk scratching yourself on it,  it is short).  On the wall next to the toilet is where you turn the faucet on, and the water shoots out in just the right spot.

It is so easy to put one on a toilet, anyone who cn do basic plumbing could install it.  SO you don't need a seperate bidet, which is costly, takes up a lot of room, and isn't even nearly as practical, as you have to change locations to use it. 

I've been wanting to install one on our toilets for years, just aven't gotten around to it.  

I can see why Meltem would think it strange that such a simple system isn't available in such "modern" European countries.


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## meltem

But I don't understand why it's difficult? What do you mean by bidet?
It's not very difficult to have water system in your toilet. You just insert the water pipe in the closet. Have you ever seen one?



			
				natasha2000 said:
			
		

> I guess because the only comfortable way to clean oneself with water would be using bidet. And unfortunatelly, I think that very few houses in general have bidet, and half of those who have it, don't use it. If I had it in my little bathroom, I assure you I would use it.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't think it would be so viable to put bidets in all WC, in each restaurant, bar, bank, or whereever there are WC.


 
​


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## natasha2000

Ok, I see...

Meltem, this is bidet.

I didn't know about this tap, Badgrammar. It is a quite invention. I would like to have one in my house. Until now I only heard about bottles of water in bathrooms. It is a quite uncomfortabe way of doing it, don¡t you agree?

Maybe this is the same thing. I found it on the same page when googlin for bidet, but this one I think can be used both as bidet and WC.


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## geve

Seana said:
			
		

> I see it is common thing in place where you live. I have never seen this intallations. Is it alike bidet appliance? If you don't mind would you find a picture of it.


There are some on the link provided by Suane in post #8: here's an example and the main page.
The ones I had seen (it might have been in Egypt... is it really bad that I can't remember countries by their toilet features??) were rather flexible pipes that you could orientate to the strategic place.
Natasha, the picture you found seems to be a perfectly fine system that wouldn't deteriorate the landscape of a modern bathroom...


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## meltem

geve said:
			
		

> post #8: here's an example
> ...


Ohh, it's really a very dirty disgusting toilet   ​


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## .   1

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Can you explain this a little bit? How can one possibly clean oneself with a STICK????


The stick had a sponge at the end and a bucket of water to clean the sponge.
The stick was to ensure that the sponge did not come into contact with the hand.

.,,


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## .   1

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Another factoid: the maximum flush radius of a commercial toilet in the US is 13 feet.


 
What is a flush radius?

.,,


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## natasha2000

. said:
			
		

> The stick had a sponge at the end and a bucket of water to clean the sponge.
> The stick was to ensure that the sponge did not come into contact with the hand.
> 
> .,,


 
Yakkk!


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## la reine victoria

> Natasha
> Maybe this is the same thing. I found it on the same page when googlin for bidet, but this one I think can be used both as bidet and WC.


 


I would *love* one of those.  Think of the fun!  


I wonder if a water pistol would be any good?



LRV


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## .   1

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Yakkk!


Roman soldiers were obviously as hard as nails in all areas.

.,,


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## .   1

la reine victoria said:
			
		

> I wonder if a water pistol would be any good?


My mind has just boggled.
I have a vision of a po faced person trying to make allowances for a poorly sighted pistol.

What if you flinched.  You could wash our ear off.

.,,


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## GenJen54

. said:
			
		

> What is a flush radius?


A flush radius describes the area of microbial spray that is emmitted into the air when a toilet (U.S.) is flushed. The spray, mostly water vapor with fecal and other bacterial "matter" mixed in for good measure, can, according to some experts, emit in an area of up to 13 feet (3.9 metres?) in diameter. So, if you are in a small stall or partition and then flush and stay in that enclosed area, you get sprayed with this very yummy and noxious concoction.

I find it interesting in general that this subject matter has attracted so much attention. 

I find it further interesting that the idea of bidets and personal "cleaners" have not caught on in U.S. culture. I'd like to say it is because we are so squeamish about bodily functions. This is the same country that is offended by the discreet photo of a nursing mother on a national health magazine, and according to early test groups, did not hasten to the idea of shower gels or "body washes" without some sort of scrubber or other application tool because we are too afraid of self-contact. Yet, we're more than willing to "clean" with a mere two squares of paper?

Hmmm.....I sense a strange irony here. 

As an aside, I have discovered "moist personal cleansing cloths" (adult "flushable" baby wipes a la LRV) which have come in handy from time to time and make the entire process much more enjoyable, if it can be called that.


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## maxiogee

. said:
			
		

> What is a flush radius?


Spatter The distance you should keep your toothbrush  <— ultrabrite smile!


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## .   1

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> A flush radius describes the area of microbial spray that is emmitted into the air when a toilet (U.S.) is flushed. The spray, mostly water vapor with fecal and other bacterial "matter" mixed in for good measure, can, according to some experts, emit in an area of up to 13 feet (3.9 metres?) in diameter. So, if you are in a small stall or partition and then flush and stay in that enclosed area, you get sprayed with this very yummy and noxious concoction.


Surely this can only be the case if the lid is not closed prior to flushing.

.,,


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## GenJen54

. said:
			
		

> Surely this can only be the case if the lid is not closed prior to flushing.


That's very likely, but in many public facilities, protective lids are not a part of the mechanism.


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## panjabigator

The idea of bidet scares me...do I have to lower my rear in the toilet to get water or is does it come at the right height?

This is a new subject for me!  I though bidets where for women and women alone!


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## Confused Linguist

http://www.arc.org/C_Lines/CLArchive/story8_2_03.html


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## panjabigator

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Yakkk!



I reiterate this  feeling!  What is the shelf life of this?  How long before you throw it away and bacteria fester!  

Thanks but no thanks...I'll stain on a liquid diet I guess!


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## natasha2000

panjabigator said:
			
		

> The idea of bidet scares me...do I have to lower my rear in the toilet to get water or is does it come at the right height?
> 
> This is a new subject for me! I though bidets where for women and women alone!


 
Since this whole thread is a little bit wierd, and more sincere than usual, I would do the same:

Yes, you have to low down your rear a little bit, but not too much. And it is used by men, too.


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## panjabigator

I guess it will build calf muscles then!


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## la reine victoria

> GenJen
> I find it interesting in general that this subject matter has attracted so much attention.


 


Freud wouldn't!    I think it might well prove a certain one of his theories.



LRV


----------



## la reine victoria

panjabigator said:
			
		

> I guess it will build calf muscles then!


 



Not necessarily Panjab.  It's just like sitting on a chair, but a little bit lower.  Very comfortable!  






LRV


----------



## badgrammar

meltem said:
			
		

> Ohh, it's really a very dirty disgusting toilet   ​



People don't realize that in Turkey, the toilets are far cleaner thanin most "modern" European countries...  And the people are very hygeinic in their personal habits as well as in their homes and especially in food preparation.  Time to debunk the myth of the disgusting Turkish toilet"!!!


----------



## Pilarcita

Yeah! In many places in México the toilet paper is disposed in garbage cans, which is terrible because the _E. colli_ and friends can fly all over the place. Sometimes this is due to the bad sewage systems, or because the people is used to it, from the times where there wasn't running water.


----------



## la reine victoria

> GenJen
> . . . . because we are too afraid of self-contact.


 


That really surprises me Jen.  On our TV commercials we see endless images of naked people in the shower, rubbing gel or cream soap all over themselves with their hands!    Also ladies, in funny positions, massaging their bodies with oils and lotions.

Glad you discovered the moist personal wipes.

A new toilet-paper has just been launched over here - it is impregnated with some balm or other and slightly moistened.  So new I haven't seen any in the supermarket yet.

Another t-p advert ends with the words "Love your bum!" (look after it lovingly).



LRV


----------



## GenJen54

LRV said:
			
		

> That really surprises me Jen. On our TV commercials we see endless images of naked people in the shower, rubbing gel or cream soap all over themselves with their hands!


The same was true when I lived in France.  Here, you are allowed to see certain "parts," but nothing suggestive. 

Most shower gels are used, and even sold with, what we call "scrubbies" or "poofs"* which are a bunched sort of nylon netting that helps the soap to suds up very well, and keeps our "hands" off of our bodies.

*No, this has nothing to do with that other definition of "poof."


----------



## natasha2000

I am really very puzzled. 
I thought people use "scrubbies" and "poofs" in order to scrub off better dirt and that tiny layer of dead cells, as well as for the better massage and circulation of the skin, and not to avoid the touch of their own hand!!! 

Sometimes Americans do things that are really wierd... Or I am the wierd one here?


----------



## GenJen54

natasha said:
			
		

> I thought people use "scrubbies" and "poofs" in order to scrub off better dirt and that tiny layer of dead cells, as well as for the better massage and circulation of the skin, and not to avoid the touch of their own hand!!!


That is exactly the way marketers have positioned the product, and they do have those benefits. However, when the shower gels and other liquid soaps first arrived on the U.S. market, they did not sell well. Preliminary studies showed that many Americans did not favor these types of soaps because people would have to touch themselves. When the scrubbies were introduced in conjunction with the bath and shower gels, product sales took off.


----------



## natasha2000

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> That is exactly the way marketers have positioned the product, and they do have those benefits. However, when the shower gels and other liquid soaps first arrived on the U.S. market, they did not sell well. Preliminary studies showed that many Americans did not favor these types of soaps because people would have to touch themselves. When the scrubbies were introduced in conjunction with the bath and shower gels, product sales took off.


 
How strange!

Well, from my experience, here in Europe (at least in Spain and in Serbia, I wouldn't know about other countries, although I do know some Germans, too), mostly women use "scrubbies". Man usually use their hands to disperse the gel over their bodies.


----------



## karuna

I also use the lota system that I learned while living in Indian asramas. And optionally using toilet paper to dry. But since I am living in a western country I invariably get to use a public bathroom once in a while. When there is not even a water bottle available, I feel so dirty afterwards. Moistening toilet paper doesn't work that well.


----------



## meltem

Why don't you sit down?


			
				natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Since this whole thread is a little bit wierd, and more sincere than usual, I would do the same:
> 
> Yes, you have to low down your rear a little bit, but not too much. And it is used by men, too.


----------



## natasha2000

meltem said:
			
		

> Why don't you sit down?
> ​


As a matter of fact, you also can sit down. But then, I think it is the question of preferences.


----------



## meltem

That's why I always prefer these alaturka toilets outside. You don't sit anywhere. Usually the alafranga ones are far dirtier.
BTW is there this toilet in europe or US?







			
				badgrammar said:
			
		

> People don't realize that in Turkey, the toilets are far cleaner thanin most "modern" European countries... And the people are very hygeinic in their personal habits as well as in their homes and especially in food preparation. Time to debunk the myth of the disgusting Turkish toilet"!!!


----------



## meltem

Yes, I agree! I'm puzzled as well. I didn't understand. You don't touch your own body even for cleaning??

And scrubbing the body is really very important for getting rid of the death cells with the dirt on it. I haven't gone to any but in a hamam un believingly so much dirt comes off from even the cleanest person. They scrub so much there.

Y





			
				natasha2000 said:
			
		

> I am really very puzzled.
> I thought people use "scrubbies" and "poofs" in order to scrub off better dirt and that tiny layer of dead cells, as well as for the better massage and circulation of the skin, and not to avoid the touch of their own hand!!!
> 
> Sometimes Americans do things that are really wierd... Or I am the wierd one here?


 
​


----------



## panjabigator

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> As a matter of fact, you also can sit down. But then, I think it is the question of preferences.



I worry that I may loose my balence and fall in the toilet!   I have to admit I am very bathroomphobic... I cannot stand to see the slightest discoloration in my toilet.  

I am a germophobe, especially when it comes to the bathroom.  But I do not over do things.  I just wash my hands everytime I am in the WC no matter what the issue.  I cannot stand to see people not wash...especially little children.  Good habits start early!


----------



## GenJen54

panjabigator said:
			
		

> I just wash my hands everytime I am in the WC no matter what the issue. I cannot stand to see people not wash...especially little children. Good habits start early!


There was a scientific study done not many years ago in the U.S. that rated the dirtiest places in the bathroom. Believe it or not, the "toilet" was NOT the dirtiest place. (Assuming bathroom is somewhat regularly cleaned). 

The dirtiest two places are, in fact, the faucet lever or knob (where you would turn the water on and/or off), and the actual door knob. The reason for this is that your hands are considered dirtier after "going" and then wiping, and the faucet knob or lever is the first thing you touch after you've wiped. 

The door knob (leading out of the bathroom) is also dirty because of the number of people who do NOT wash their hands. 

Some scientists have advised using a paper towel to both turn off the faucet and then open the door to exit. That is why in many bathrooms, you now see the trash bin located close to the exit door, so people can throw the paper towels away after they've already opened the door.


----------



## natasha2000

Meltem, yes, you can still find this kind of toilet in all Balkan countries that were under Tukish ocupation, but the places where they still exist are something like yakk. , and as I already saw what kind of toilet you like, you wouldn't want to do anything in those ones, since they are usually unspeakably dirty. Today in all those Balcanic countries all decent toilets are like in Europe.

BTW, I spoke with some Spanish people who visited Turkey and they were explaining me about those kind of toilets with disgust. although I think they're more higienic if the toilet is dirty. As you said, at least you don't have to sit anywhere.

On the other hand, bidet IS NOT WC at the same time. It serves only for washing yourself, and for nothing more. therefore, They exist only in private houses, and they are usually clean enough so you can sit on them.

Therefore, Pandja, if you ever come across to a bidet, sit down without any fear, in order not to loose balance, and as far as germs are concerned, I am almost sure you'll be safe on that one, too.


----------



## panjabigator

I probably look foolish to many. I use my elbow to get paper towels out (I'd rather that become dirty then my hand), then I use the paper towel to dry my hands, turn the faucet off, and open the door.
 I will remember your words when if I ever use a bidet, Natasha!


----------



## meltem

I think those kind of toilets (we call alaturka) seem as if they are too dirty, but in fact it's because of the mud. Because there're water around and you have to step on the edges with your outside shoes, so with the water mud forms which make them seem very dirty, but in fact there's not much problem because you just step on them and in the end they're more hygenic.


----------



## natasha2000

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Believe it or not, the "toilet" was NOT the dirtiest place.


 
I also read that our bottom is NOT the place with largest number of germs on our body, but... guess what? Our mouth!


----------



## cubaMania

panjabigator said:
			
		

> I probably look foolish to many. I use my elbow to get paper towels out (I'd rather that become dirty then my hand), then I use the paper towel to dry my hands, turn the faucet off, and open the door...


 
I don't think that is foolish, panjabigator.  In any public bathroom I use a paper towel (or a bit of toilet paper if no paper towels are available) to turn faucets and to turn the doorknob when I exit.  If it is one of those cloth towel dispensers with a lever, like you I use my elbow or a little toilet paper to push the lever.  The general idea is that especially on the way out of the toilet after having washed your hands, you don't want to touch anything.  Also to flush, I use a kick of the foot, not my hand to push the toilet handle.  (Good exercise too if it is up high. )

Then at home we keep a little squeeze bottle of vinegar or of alcohol right by the toilet.  We finish off by squeezing some onto some toilet paper and wiping with that.  Of course, if you have any abrasion, cut, hemorrhoids, etc. that is not a good idea, but if your skin is intact it is comfortable and really cleans and disinfects.


----------



## natasha2000

cubaMania said:
			
		

> Also to flush, I use a kick of the foot, not my hand to push the toilet handle. (Good exercise too if it is up high. )
> 
> don't you think that this is precisely why those handles are so dirty?
> 
> Then at home we keep a little squeeze bottle of vinegar or of alcohol right by the toilet. We finish off by squeezing some onto some toilet paper and wiping with that. Of course, if you have any abrasion, cut, hemorrhoids, etc. that is not a good idea, but if your skin is intact it is comfortable and really cleans and disinfects.


 
Alcohol? Vinegar? 

You guys are really exagerated...


----------



## panjabigator

> don't you think that this is precisely why those handles are so dirty?


Not at all.  Well, Im sure it contributes, but I think it's far less serious than the fecal matter transfered by the hand 

As long as you flush and wash your hands, you're alright by me! Oh and make sure you leave the seat clean...it becomes troublesome when you are in the mall and you really need to go and there ain't a clean seat in sight   Oops have I said too much??


----------



## natasha2000

panjabigator said:
			
		

> Not at all. Well, Im sure it contributes, but I think it's far less serious than the fecal matter transfered by the hand
> 
> 
> Now seriously, hahahahahah....
> This is very, but  very exagerated! I certainly do not have any "fecal mater" on my hand when cleaning myself! How on Earth you manage to have it on yours with all that toilet paper that is usually used to clean one's butt?
> 
> As long as you flush and wash your hands, you're alright by me! Oh and make sure you leave the seat clean...it becomes troublesome when you are in the mall and you really need to go and there ain't a clean seat in sight  Oops have I said too much??


 
No, you really did not say too much. I think that these "cleanies" are guilty for having toilets pissed all over. In ladies toilets, there is always some clever one that decides the seat is not clean and then she tries to point into the toilet, and usually misses, and at the end, her urine ends up not only inside the toilet but also on the seat. Then it is logical that for the next one is out of the question to sit on the seat. And in men's toilet... well, there are few men that actually sit on the toilet. they usually use them as pisoars.


----------



## fenixpollo

. said:
			
		

> Surely this can only be the case if the lid is not closed prior to flushing.


 When I said "commercial toilets", I meant public, high-volume toilets. For public urinals (the trough in the men's bathroom), it's 7 feet.  For the toilet in the bathroom of your house, it's 6-9 feet.  To Maxi's point, if you keep your toothbrush out on the counter, it's getting sprayed with feces every time you flush. And yes, even if the lid is closed, because the spray is ejected with the same force as a sneeze, and the particles are microscopic and they end up floating all over the place.

Maxi, blind people know when it's clean the same as you and me. To Seana's point, I might as well be blind as far as my anus is concerned. Short of keeping a hand-mirror by the toilet, anyway. 

My point in being this disgusting and graphic is this: _Is one ever really clean?_


----------



## karuna

GenJen54 said:
			
		

> Some scientists have advised using a paper towel to both turn off the faucet and then open the door to exit. That is why in many bathrooms, you now see the trash bin located close to the exit door, so people can throw the paper towels away after they've already opened the door.



Naturally hands get dirty by touching things therefore it is more important to always wash your hands before eating. Without exceptions, even if it is only one cookie or a cup of coffee. It is not so much necessary to use soap, just rinsing in water once is already very effective. But most people in my country don't do it. In fact many coffee shops in Latvia do not even provide facilities for washing your hands although they are required by law. When I insist they let me use the facilities used by service personnel.


----------



## .   1

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> My point in being this disgusting and graphic is this: _Is one ever really clean?_


 
The only time that I am properly clean is immediately after bathing.

.,,


----------



## panjabigator

karuna said:
			
		

> Naturally hands get dirty by touching things therefore it is more important to always wash your hands before eating. Without exceptions, even if it is only one cookie or a cup of coffee. It is not so much necessary to use soap, just rinsing in water once is already very effective. But most people in my country don't do it. In fact many coffee shops in Latvia do not even provide facilities for washing your hands although they are required by law. When I insist they let me use the facilities used by service personnel.



Maybe you shouldn't go there then.  Who knows what other rules (hygenic ones included) they could be breaking.  Are there any signs that say "Employees MUST wash their hands after using the bathroom?"


----------



## .   1

badgrammar said:
			
		

> People don't realize that in Turkey, the toilets are far cleaner thanin most "modern" European countries... And the people are very hygeinic in their personal habits as well as in their homes and especially in food preparation. Time to debunk the myth of the disgusting Turkish toilet"!!!


I have never heard any reference to Turkish people being anything other than clean in personal hygiene or food preparation.

There are very few towns in rural Australia that do not have a Public Baths dedicated to a soldier or some such from the first world war and many of these have Turkish references.  It is possible to imagine that Australian culture has been positively sprinkled by contact with Turkey even under the most adverse of circumstances.

Turkish Baths are deemed to be the height of luxurious decadence as far as cleanliness is concerned.

.,,


----------



## fenixpollo

karuna said:
			
		

> It is not so much necessary to use soap, just rinsing in water once is already very effective.


 Not true. We wash our hands to remove the dirt where microorganisms live. Rinsing with water does not dissolve the body oil that holds the dirt together and sticks it to the skin. Soap is the best way to break down this dirt.

So, periodcommacomma -- you must take a shower, then, and not a bath, if you are truly clean afterwards.  I can't imagine that one could be clean after sitting in a bathful of one's own dirt.


----------



## cubaMania

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> don't you think that this is precisely why those handles are so dirty?


Maybe so, but I don't care because only the sole of my shoe is ever going to touch it. 



			
				natasha2000 said:
			
		

> Alcohol? Vinegar?
> 
> You guys are really exagerated...


Try it, and see how clean and sweet-smelling it makes you!  You will convert, I predict.

(P.S. two g's in exaggerate)


----------



## .   1

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> So, periodcommacomma -- you must take a shower, then, and not a bath, if you are truly clean afterwards. I can't imagine that one could be clean after sitting in a bathful of one's own dirt.


That is a funny thing about written language.
When I referred to bathing I never for a moment considered sitting in a bath.  I am only clean under running water.  If I ever have a bath and everytime I have a spa it is after I have first cleaned myself in a shower.

.,,


----------



## karuna

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> Not true. We wash our hands to remove the dirt where microorganisms live. Rinsing with water does not dissolve the body oil that holds the dirt together and sticks it to the skin. Soap is the best way to break down this dirt.



It isn't very practical to wash your hands fully with soap before each snack, let's say 10 times a day. If you get too strict people will avoid washing hands at all, even when absolutely necessary. Rinsing takes only a few seconds for considerable benefit. It is not good to be too sterile at all times as well. The body may lose immunity against bacteria it never encounters and then even a small contact can be a cause of a serious disease.


----------



## lablady

Fascinating thread! 

After reading all the posts I have decided that I am very grateful for the progress that has been made in the area of personal hygiene. The idea of cleansing with a squirt of water sounds wonderful; I wish that was available in our public restrooms. Maybe I'll have one installed in my home.  

With all the talk of toilet paper "history", I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned my father's boyhood method of cleaning himself (maybe his family was unique in their ingenuity). He grew up on a farm with no indoor plumbing. The "toilet paper" available in the outhouse was corncobs. The cobs could be turned during use so as to supply a clean surface, and then thrown down the hole when finished. I am told the fresher corncobs were the most comfortable; the older, drier corncobs got a little abrasive (I have no experience in this matter). While much of the corn was fed to the chickens and other livestock, I imagine the family must have also eaten quite a bit in order to keep the outhouse well supplied. Old catalogs were also available for use.



> It isn't very practical to wash your hands fully with soap before each snack, let's say 10 times a day. If you get too strict people will avoid washing hands at all, even when absolutely necessary. Rinsing takes only a few seconds for considerable benefit. It is not good to be too sterile at all times as well. The body may lose immunity against bacteria it never encounters and then even a small contact can be a cause of a serious disease.


Unless you work in a hospital where it is _required_ to wash your hands before and after _every_ patient to prevent the spread of infection. My hands get so dry I spend a fortune in hand lotion.


----------



## GenJen54

> It isn't very practical to wash your hands fully with soap before each snack, let's say 10 times a day. If you get too strict people will avoid washing hands at all, even when absolutely necessary. Rinsing takes only a few seconds for considerable benefit.



Please don't say that to the waiter or waitress serving me my food.  Many bathrooms in the U.S. have signs posted showing that employees are required by law to wash their hands after using the bathroom.   In this case, a cursory "rinse" just won't cut it, I'm afraid.

In other circumstances, water may be just fine if that is all there is.  If that is not available, in the U.S. there are anti-bacterial lotions and gels one can use to "clean" when soap and water are not available.  Many come in small bottles that can easily be kept in a pocket, purse or car.  These come in particularly handy during flu season.  

I also carry in my car a plastic canister of anti-bacterial wipes which I use after getting gasoline, and/or before I go to eat.  Like the earlier- referenced baby wipes, they are a moist toilette that can be thrown away.  They can also substitute for toilet paper in a pinch.



> It is not good to be too sterile at all times as well. The body may lose immunity against bacteria it never encounters and then even a small contact can be a cause of a serious disease.


I agree with this in principle, but sometimes it is better to be safe than sorry.  Bathrooms are not the only places where germs hide.  Grocery stores are particularly bad (the cart handles), as are several other types of public places.  

One of the dirtiest things on earth is something most of us handle on a daiy basis: our money?  Paper currency is rife with germs.  Why not have a wipe handy when even a rinse isn't possible.


----------



## maxiogee

It appears that people here are going to extraordinary lengths to avoid coming into contact with germs.
Did you know what it is likely that if you wear rings there may be, lurking beneath them, more germs than there are people in Europe?
Did you know that, as someone has said already, the mouth is a filthy place?
Did you know that we need these germs to keep us healthy? Without exposure to a certain level of germs of species X we would fall ill when we come into contact with high levels of the same germs.

There are such things as over-zealousness and paranoia.


----------



## natasha2000

. said:
			
		

> The only time that I am properly clean is immediately after bathing.
> 
> .,,


 
And this is true only if you used "scrubbie". If not, you're going around with your dead skin cells....

I have the impression that this thread is getting a little bit hypochondriac tone...


----------



## geve

meltem said:
			
		

> That's why I always prefer these alaturka toilets outside. You don't sit anywhere. Usually the alafranga ones are far dirtier.
> BTW is there this toilet in europe or US?


You can still find some in France, in old cafes and bars (and we call it "à la turque"  ). 



			
				karuna said:
			
		

> I also use the lota system that I learned while living in Indian asramas. And optionally using toilet paper to dry. But since I am living in a western country I invariably get to use a public bathroom once in a while. When there is not even a water bottle available, I feel so dirty afterwards. Moistening toilet paper doesn't work that well.


 
How did you learn, where there special courses?  Because I've read the story in the link posted by ConfusedLinguist - and I must say I wouldn't know what to do with a lotah. I can understand the pipe system, but a water recipient? In what position do you need to be?  

I think there are limits to personal hygiene. We don't _need_ to be totally clean all the time...
It reminds me of someone who told me once a scenario that was scaring her: she takes the subway everyday. There's a possibility that a dog rested its paws or head or any other dirty body part before, on the seat she's sitting on; she then gets back home, sits on the couch with her pants on, undresses, takes a shower and returns to the couch, naked - well then, it is as if her bare skin was directly in contact with the dog!!  ...
Yeah, life is risky.  

There were some scary studies that ought to appear in fenixpollo's Hypochondriac's Handbook.
Analyses were conducted on plates of peanuts that are sometimes left on the counter of cafes in France for people to help themselves while having a drink. You don't want to know how many different urines and other "personal substances" they found traces of in them.


----------



## natasha2000

geve said:
			
		

> You can still find some in France, in old cafes and bars (and we call it "à la turque"  ).
> 
> Really? I thought that in Europe those kind of toilets are privilege of Balkan countries.
> 
> I think there are limits to personal hygiene. We don't _need_ to be totally clean all the time...
> 
> I agree. There's personal hygiene, and there's hypochondirac attacks.
> 
> It reminds me of someone who told me once a scenario that was scaring her: she takes the subway everyday. There's a possibility that a dog rested its paws or head or any other dirty body part before, on the seat she's sitting on; she then gets back home, sits on the couch with her pants on, undresses, takes a shower and returns to the couch, naked - well then, it is as if her bare skin was directly in contact with the dog!!  ...
> Yeah, life is risky.
> 
> This is is flippant! Then maybe it's better for her not to go out of her house at all! Or to wear a mask and starylize her house like Michael Jackson.
> 
> There were some scary studies that ought to appear in fenixpollo's Hypochondriac's Handbook.
> Analyses were conducted on plates of peanuts that are sometimes left on the counter of cafes in France for people to help themselves while having a drink. You don't want to know how many different urines and other "personal substances" they found traces of in them.
> 
> Well, that's why our good old immunologic system exists. Otherwise, why on Earth would we need it?


 
My aunt always put cotton balls into keyholes when they visited us in order to prevent her children from getting cold. She even forbid them to stand in front of the open fridge! She really tried her best to protect her children from getting ill.
Now, I remember that my two little cousins were always sick. Me and my brother, almost never. And we stood in front of the fridge many times...


----------



## badgrammar

Well, it is getting off-topic, but trying to protect ourselves and our children from coming into contact with an array of germs and bacteria is counter-productive, as it is important to building our immune systems.  That is another reason that mother are no longer recommended to sterilise baby bottles as thoroughly and for as long as before - coming into contact with small amounts of bacteria left from milk residue is how babies graudually build up their defenses.  

Imagine growing up in an atmosphere with very few germs - when you walk out the door - much less start school or travel - you will quickly fall ill because your body has never produced the antibodies necessary to defending your system.

Back to the potty topic, there are two kinds of women in the world - the good ones, and the others - the ones that pee all over previously clean toilet seats and leave it that way!!!  I, personally, will sit on a dry toilet seat in a public restroom - I'm not too worried about contracting something with my thighs.  I've been around for a long time, and sitting on a dry (reasonably clean) toilet seat has never been a problem.

But if you can't do it, if it's just too gross for you, then wipe up what you have just sprayed on the otherwise clean seat, please!!!


----------



## Seana

I think, that theme of being oversensitive on the topic of one's health and hygienes could  be even a topic of a doctoral dissertation but Natasha your auntie with her  cotton balls into keyholes and "opened fridge" has beat a record in the exaggeration  . I am sure that all her efforts were bad for her children's immunologic system. Being a child I was also treated alike them by my mom. But I did everything if only could be done to get free from all these my mum's efforts, in the winter on the sledge or skis I was soaked to the skin, I ate dirty fruits and carrots straight completely from the soil, without washing them  but in turn it I was happy. 
In Poland is said that the child can be either clean or happy.


----------



## natasha2000

badgrammar said:
			
		

> But if you can't do it, if it's just too gross for you, then wipe up what you have just sprayed on the otherwise clean seat, please!!!


 
I'm afraid that I cannot agree with this! This is: Yakk!  And even more mean, because the one who comes after doesn¡t know what she is going to sit on!

I would recommend other solution. Lift up the seat. In this way, the seat stays as it was, and everybody is happy.


----------



## natasha2000

Seana said:
			
		

> In Poland is said that the child can be either clean or happy.


 
I think this goes for all children in the world....


----------



## badgrammar

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> I'm afraid that I cannot agree with this! This is: Yakk!  And even more mean, because the one who comes after doesn¡t know what she is going to sit on!
> 
> I would recommend other solution. Lift up the seat. In this way, the seat stays as it was, and everybody is happy.



But then you have to touch the seat, anyway - and women who don't mind peeing all over the toilet seat won't do that, either.  

But even if you lift the seat and then proceed to hover over the toilet and pee all over the rim and bowl anyway, couldn't you take a nice fat wad of toilet paper and wipe away your urine from the fixture?  I just think it is part of behaving in a civilized manner to not spray urine on toilets and then leave it there.  Hygiene in public places begins with the users of these places.  

Obviously, if you walk into a filthy restroom, you can't be expected to wipe away the pee of all those who have gone before you.  But I've seen toilets that looked impeccably clean with fresh spray all over them..  and then I think "_why_"?  _Why_ urinate all over a clean toilet seat and then walk away, leaving it like that? It's a mystery to me.

BTW, urine is nearly sterile.  If the person before me has wiped up her urine mess and it is now dry, I'm not going to catch anything from my thighs coming into contact with it.


----------



## panjandrum

natasha2000 said:
			
		

> My aunt always put cotton balls into keyholes when they visited us in order to prevent her children from getting cold. [...]


That's what she told you - I bet it was to stop you from peering at her through the keyhole 

When travelling, especially when on long outdoor expeditions, I always carry tissues (that's kleenex in AE) and a small container of creamy stuff.  A little cream on a tissue is excellent for bum-wiping and leaves me feeling fresh, clean, smooth, and ready for many more miles of friction-free walking


----------



## fenixpollo

geve said:
			
		

> There were some scary studies that ought to appear in fenixpollo's Hypochondriac's Handbook.


 So now you think I'm a hypochondriac? No way. I don't obsess about hygiene -- I"m just aware of it. Perhaps it comes from my last job, which involved training kitchen workers in proper food preparation. But, when I compare my wariness of germs with other people in this thread who apparently think that germs are a good thing, I can see where I would appear to be the alarmist. 


			
				karuna said:
			
		

> It isn't very practical to wash your hands fully with soap before each snack, let's say 10 times a day. If you get too strict people will avoid washing hands at all, even when absolutely necessary.


 As Jen said, you may be right in this, karuna... just don't prepare my food. 


			
				GenJen54 said:
			
		

> In other circumstances, water may be just fine if that is all there is. If that is not available, in the U.S. there are anti-bacterial lotions and gels one can use to "clean" when soap and water are not available.


 The purpose of handwashing is to wash away dirt and oil where microorganisms grow. Anti-bacterial gels and lotions only add to that medium, so your hands end up dirtier than they were before. Soap does not kill any microorganisms, so it does not interfere with the body's immune system like anti-bacterial products can.


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## panjabigator

I think the medicinal effect of washing my hands with soap and water is enough for me.  I wash my hands a rediculously crazy amount of times and it's staying that way!


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## geve

fenixpollo said:
			
		

> So now you think I'm a hypochondriac?


Oh, not at all! I was simply referring to a book you had mentioned.  
But germs ARE good, you know. I particularly enjoy them in a good camembert. 



			
				badgrammar said:
			
		

> But then you have to touch the seat, anyway - and women who don't mind peeing all over the toilet seat won't do that, either.


I usually don't sit on toilets in public places - I find it a convenient way to strengthen my thighs  And I lift the seat - not that I'm worried on my ability to hit the spot, but because it's more convenient (that's a few less centimeters for my thighs to lift me... (if that sentence makes any sense!)).
I would offer the hypothesis that the women you describe, badgrammar, have had a little too much to drink. 
They might even be _men_ who've had a little too much to drink and can't recognize a sign on a toilet door (and how could they be expected to have a well-targeted pee in that case?)


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## natasha2000

badgrammar said:
			
		

> But then you have to touch the seat, anyway - and women who don't mind peeing all over the toilet seat won't do that, either.
> 
> Yes, yes, yes! You're so right!
> 
> But even if you lift the seat and then proceed to hover over the toilet and pee all over the rim and bowl anyway, couldn't you take a nice fat wad of toilet paper and wipe away your urine from the fixture? I just think it is part of behaving in a civilized manner to not spray urine on toilets and then leave it there. Hygiene in public places begins with the users of these places.
> 
> Yes! I would do that if I peed from the "birdy perspective", but I usually always sit if the seat is dry and (on the first sight) clean.... Anyway, I sometimes use paper just to sit on the seat, if that seat looks suspicious to me ... Anyway, I forgot to tell: Wipe out. So I repeat: Lift up the seat and clean after youself.
> 
> 
> Obviously, if you walk into a filthy restroom, you can't be expected to wipe away the pee of all those who have gone before you. But I've seen toilets that looked impeccably clean with fresh spray all over them.. and then I think "_why_"? _Why_ urinate all over a clean toilet seat and then walk away, leaving it like that? It's a mystery to me.
> To me, too.
> 
> BTW, urine is nearly sterile. If the person before me has wiped up her urine mess and it is now dry, I'm not going to catch anything from my thighs coming into contact with it.
> 
> Yes, I kind of know that. I heard that in extreme situation, whern you are somewhere without water or any other atiseptic matrerial or liquid, and you hur youself, you just pee over the wound in order to sterylize it. It is so hard to me to accept this, but it is truth.


 


> As Jen said, you may be right in this, karuna... just don't prepare my food.


 
I think that Karuna thought in everdays life providing you're NOT a doctor or waiter or chef.... It is obvious that if you prepare food you will wash your hand many times. I myself, when preparing food, have hands almost all the time wet.. You wash this, cut that, wahs hands, then take out of the fridge this, wash it, cut it etc... It is constant wash and dry, wash and dry. Bit if you work in the office, why shoud you wash your hads after each paper you touch?



> That's what she told you - I bet it was to stop you from peering at her through the keyhole


 
hehehe... No, they were always coming to dinner and nothing more. They never slept over into our house, so she didn't have any need to take off her clothes and to suspect I am spying on her...
I mentioned only the two drastic things... But As soon as she entered, she would start to close all windows and doors, always complaining on draft, and then she would take of her pocket tiny little cotton balls....


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## natasha2000

geve said:
			
		

> They might even be _men_ who've had a little too much to drink and can't recognize a sign on a toilet door (and how could they be expected to have a well-targeted pee in that case?)


 
Yes, it might be true, sometimes... If there is one bathroom for both sexes....
In certain places, I go to men's restroom, because it is more clear than the ladies' one, since men go to pisoars if they drink too much, and they use toilets only if it a "big job" is to be done, and that is more seldom than to take a piss..... 

Yes, sometimes I receive funny looks, but I don't care...


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## karuna

geve said:
			
		

> How did you learn, where there special courses?  Because I've read the story in the link posted by ConfusedLinguist - and I must say I wouldn't know what to do with a lotah. I can understand the pipe system, but a water recipient? In what position do you need to be?



Some arrogant but well wishing _brahmana brahmacari _simply explains these things to newcoming westerners who are _muchi _(dirty).  It is really the same as bidet though it is more convenient in squatting position. Just hold the lota and pour the water where you need.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

I've heard some tribes in Africa still use urine as a disinfectant (this is a well known property). So, about moisturizing toilet paper, I think it would be certainely a good pratice to make oneself one using our own urine (if any) as the liquid to do the cleaning job. It would be very hygienic indeed. Of course, you will have to dry the area after. Maybe this practice is already in use somewhere?


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## badgrammar

KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> I've heard some tribes in Africa still use urine as a disinfectant (this is a well known property). So, about moisturizing toilet paper, I think it would be certainely a good pratice to make oneself one using our own urine (if any) as the liquid to do the cleaning job. It would be very hygienic indeed. Of course, you will have to dry the area after. Maybe this practice is already in use somewhere?



Yes, however it can be irritating to the skin...  But I think it's a natural part of what happens anyway, atleast for girls .


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## cubaMania

I am worried that someone on the forum may take as fact this legend that urine is a disinfectant. It is not. The notion seems to come about because while contained within the bladder urine is usually sterile. But there is a difference between sterile and disinfectant.

The fact is that urine, once it leaves the bladder, is an extreme breeding ground for bacteria. Urine of some animals is also known to contain other disease-causing agents. Whether in future we will find those agents also in human urine, I believe is not yet known. For instance the deadly hantavirus is found in animal urine, and so are the prions which spread mad cow disease. Here's a quote from a medical site which gives instructions on urine testing:


> It is important that urine is examined for bacteria, casts, crystals, and epithelial cells. Urine stored in the bladder is normally free of bacteria or yeast. However, bacteria are commonly found in urine specimens because of the abundant normal microbial flora of the vagina or external urinary meatus *and due to the ability of bacteria to multiply rapidly in urine standing at room temperature*.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

cubaMania said:
			
		

> I am worried that someone on the forum may take as fact this legend that urine is a disinfectant. It is not.


Ok, thanks, so you answered my question cubaMania: it is not a good practice!
Sorry if "disinfectant" is not the right term. I've heard "propriété antiseptique" in French, which I (badly) translated by "disinfectant property".
The report I saw spoke about the ammoniac contained into the urine of bulls this one used even to wash babies by their own mothers since ever. I saw a reporting showing them, the off voice explaining it was to wash (as if a soap) the baby and preserve him against insects bites too. Don't know much about urine properties, and understand now this is an erroneous behaviour...


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## la reine victoria

Karine,

You have to remember that once urine leaves the bladder bacteria get to work on it and make it very smelly.

Soap and water, or a good baby moisturised wipe, get rid of stale urine. 




LRV


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## la reine victoria

The same goes for underarm or genital perspiration.  Pure to start with but quickly made smelly by bacteria.  They multiply fast in these warm places.





LRV


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## cubaMania

Yes, KaRiNe, it is important to remember that there are huge amounts of myth and misunderstanding in the field of health.

When we discover some health practice of a primitive people, we can consider it a subject for research to find out whether or not it has a healthy basis.  But we cannot assume that it does just because it is old.

There are even groups who have taken the "sterile urine" myth to an extreme of practicing the drinking of urine.  They use terms like "urine therepy" and "the waters of life."  I met one of them who had been doing it for years, and you know what?  she absolutely stinks!!!  Yukkkk!


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## panjabigator

I have heard though that in case of an emergency, it is OK to drink ones own urine.  Sorry, that is very off topic...but a hygenic issue indeed!


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## cubaMania

Yes, well if it is a choice between death from dehydration or drinking urine, I might be persuaded--but nothing short of that would do it for me.


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## Bonjules

Hello, on the issue of paper...
When I'm working the 'finca' away from the house I don't try to fight my way back through the heat. I grab some (dry) leaves off the ground, works fine. You might find some crumbs or small fragments of leaves in your undies later, so what.
But this gives me the idea: In the temperate zones of the world huge amounts of leaves get bagged and thrown away every fall. Why not grind them up and make a 'toilet tissue' out of them, all you need is a little binder. The cruder, rougher product that was around before the super-soft, flimsy tissue of today worked much better anyway(a little friction can be a blessing).
You could do with one sheet where today you have to double and triple layer it, since it comes apart in your hand before it can do its job. 
saludos


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## Chaska Ñawi

You really need somebody who knows their leaves in all stages of decomposition to get away with that.

Imagine wiping your tender hinie with dead bits of nettles, thistles, elecampane, comfrey ..... ?   They all have fine medicinal qualities, but these come from the sap; the rest of the structure is downright painful!  And then some leaves, like oak, don't compost at all; and others still have irritating oils in their residue.

However, while we're making paper out of recycled products, there's somebody in the Canadian arctic who's making paper - and not toilet paper, but quite nice writing paper - out of muskox poop!


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## la reine victoria

Over here, Bonjules, we prefer to compost our leaves and return them to the soil as leaf mould.  On my island everyone with a garden (most people) is given a composting bin.  After two years an excellent potting compost for young seedlings can be obtained.

People here take pride in growing organic produce.  They sell their surplus to the public.  It is a delight to stop at the entrances to ancient cottages to buy freshly picked runner beans, peas, broad beans, marrows, strawberries, tomatoes, courgettes, potatoes, etc.  "Please leave your money in the dish" says the sign.  Nobody takes anything without paying and there are no thieves to steal the money.

I am truly blessed to live where I do, in a small village in the countryside.  We are currently enjoying a glut of large, juicy blackberries.  They were ripened in July due to the exceptionally hot weather.  I feel a blackberry jam moment coming on.  

The very thought of making bum wipes from ground-up autumn leaves is abhorrent to me.

I go for long country walks all year round.  There is always greenery available in winter should one be "taken short".  I have been, very occasionally.  A nice, cold leaf, or moss, or grasses, is very soothing.

I've just been pondering on the use of lettuce leaves or the outer, tough leaves of cauliflowers and cabbage as emergency wipes.  I think they would serve the purpose very well.  They wouldn't leave traces in the undies either.




LRV


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## natasha2000

cubaMania said:
			
		

> Yes, well if it is a choice between death from dehydration or drinking urine, I might be persuaded--but nothing short of that would do it for me.


 
Don't say twice... This scene appears in one movie about the war in Bosnia. A group of people is trapped inside the train tunnel by the enemy... And they ran out of water. So, in order to survive until the back up comes, they are forced to drink their own pee. Oh,yes, and there was an American reporter with them, too. She didn't refuse it, either...


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## Bonjules

There is no issue with wanting to deprive anyonone, LRV, of their precious compost leaves. I compost pretty much everything the chickens won't eat. But I know for a fact that in central Europe, the Mid West and even the 'environment-concious' East Coast huge amounts of leaves get carted off to waste and rot. Not everyone is as concientious as you or has the space to garden!
Chaska, it's fine that Oak leaves take longer to decompose. I just want to dry them before processing, not rot them. This also would get rid of medicinal/active compounds and oiles because most of these are volatile enough to simply disappear in the drying process(with the great majority of the the trees in Question- Oak and Maple- there is no significant issue anyway, as far as I know. Poison Oak/Ivy is not something people grow in their neighborhoods-and are not trees either. It's in the wild and yes, I don' t recommend to wipe yourself with it when green). If there was a small fraction of residue nonetheless, it probably would be diluted to insignificance or could easily be tested for.
Leaves, like wood, like paper, are basically cellulose. Why cut down so many trees if they can supply the same substance -for free.


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## aussieinthailand

Hahaha that makes me laugh. I am an Aussie living in Thailand, 90% of public toilets and 98% of homes have a hose with a trigger nozzle on the end of it hanging next to the toilet. In new shopping centres toilet paper is the norm. I think it is to satisfy the tourists, but I hate them. 
Water is much cleaner and if you have eaten hot curries or have stomach problems much cooler. 
I use toilet paper to dry my butt after cleaning with water. 
When I move back to Australia I will definitely have water next to my loo. 
The wash your hands thoroughly after and it is much cleaner and hygienic.


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## winklepicker

The sign of a truly civilised country is the widespread availability of the bidet. IMHO.


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## don maico

winklepicker said:


> The sign of a truly civilised country is the widespread availability of the bidet. IMHO.



That counts us out then


We had one in Argentina where they are fairly common. Dont think any of my family used it. I certainly didnt except to wash my feet in. No one ever told me what it was for but as feet washers it was excellent.


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## Musical Chairs

In my grandparents' house in Japan, there are two toilets, one that is "western" style (the kind you see in the US) and the other style that you have to squat over to use. The toilet that is "western" style comes with a seat warmer, a shower that washes your butt and has buttons to control position and pressure, and a dryer. There is always toilet paper. These toilets are also used in public sometimes.

My mom got this toilet installed in our house here too. I love it.


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## Hakro

maxiogee said:


> I still remember (usually with a shudder!) the toilet-paper of my youth. Shiny on one side and cheese-graterish on the other.


I remember that kind of paper, too. The real problem was how to use it. If you had the coarse side towards your bottom and the shiny side on your hand, the paper stuck on your bottom and slipped under your fingers; if you tried to use it the other way round, you could move the paper back and forth but instead of wiping it just spread the stuff it should have wiped away. 
A difficult decision to make.


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## tvdxer

fenixpollo said:


> In Mexico and other Central and South American countries, many people dispose of toilet paper not in the toilet, but in the garbage can (related thread).  Pleurrrgh!
> 
> Nobody has answered the question to my satisfaction: if you wash with water, how do you dry?   Air dry?  A cloth towel dedicated to that purpose?



That's what they did at family I stayed at's house in Costa Rica.  (The septic system there gets clogged up if you try to flush down toilet paper) Believe it or not, the bathroom did not smell much worse than a normal American bathroom.


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## Joca

I was often told that in the countryside people used a threshed corncob as a cheap substitute for toilet paper. I was never able to check this, and I don't know if the practice is still in force.

I know this is beyond the scope of the forum and the range of the question, and I don't want to sound gross or make a wisecrack, but shouldn't we all strive for a minimal use of toilet paper? That is, depending on your diet and on how your system is working, you can even afford to do without toilet paper. Squatting rather than sitting can also help us in the process.


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## DahDah

(I wasn't aware of Wordreference's forums until very recently and I think they are fantastic!)
To clean myself, I always use dry toilet paper first, then I use wet toilet paper (a lot of it so it doesn't fall apart), and dry toilet paper again to dry the remaining water off. If I have to use only dry paper, when I'm not at home or there isn't a sink within reach, I feel like it's not completely clean. I use way too much toilet paper, though, which causes me to feel guilty about all those trees used to manufacture it. That's why I find suggestions like Bojules' about recycling leaves a good idea; although, in reality, I'm not sure I could get myself to do it, I mean cleaning myself with a leave or with paper that is not soft.
I grew up using toilet paper and I remember as a child we used to put it in a trash can that was always by the toilet. I remember I thought it was disgusting, especially when you had to put it in the larger bin to have all the trash in one bin when the garbage truck came.
I don't remember exactly when it was that I stopped putting toilet paper in a trash can or if it was only while my family lived at one particular old house we lived in for a while, but I know that still today, many people in Mexico continue to put it in trash cans instead of the toilet. I believe this is related to economic disparities, though, and not so much due to lack of urban infrastructure. Now, as an adult, people have explained to me that they put it in trash cans because putting paper in the toilet would clog up their sewage systems but I believe this to be incorrect, at least in large cities. I believe that people just kept doing it because maybe historically it was necessary since cities didn't have appropriate sewage systems. In any event, I believe that most middle and higher-income people in Mexico put toilet paper in the toilet, while lower-income people put it in trash cans, which is unfortunate (even if I also think it's barbaric to use so much paper to clean yourself).


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## Bonjules

DahDah said:


> Hola, DahDah (and welcome!), here is the problem:
> Many people in Mexico and almost all poorer folks anywhere as well as any
> home in the country has a 'septic system', more or less sophisticated dependent on where you are. In some states in New England, you can't sell a house without proof of a a working, modern system with a tank and a leachfield. In Puerto Rico, as well as most less developed places, the 'system' consists of a pipe that leads into a pit, that's it (In P.R., an estimated 1.5 million! pits, most of them 'dirty pits', which means the waste is not completely digested in a tank first, it just rots away. As an aside, this is a huge problem: Since a 'dirty pit' needs to be open to the ground to work, it can and will contaminate the soil and ground water underneath).
> 
> The paper is a problem in this situation, even if you have a modern system. The more processed the paper - I read somewhere that coloring makes matters much worse- the less it gets digested and builds up in the system.
> This is another reason why I suggested the leaf-recycled paper, minimally processed. The rougher texture, I think, would actually be an advantage.
> The rough paper I remember before the current flimsy stuff worked much better!
> saludos


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## badgrammar

Hahaha!  This old thread has made a comeback!  Well, to add a little more to the potty-talk, we are building a new house and although we will be installing regular Western-style toilets, we plan on welding a spiggot made of copper tubing to the inside of the back of the toilet, connected to a hot/cold tap, with a faucet on the wall next to the toilet, as you see in western-style toilets in Turkey.  Less expensive than a fancy Japanese toilet, far more practical than a bidet (I've had those before and yes, they're great for feet and washing hand-washable clothing, but get little other use), and definitely more effective than toilet paper!


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## Musical Chairs

Sometimes I wonder if it would actually be all that much environmentally safer because you'd have to use power to operate these things. Also, it would take longer than just wiping yourself.

The fancy Japanese toilet does make me feel very clean. It's especially good when you're on your period or you have the runs.


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## badgrammar

Which things do you need power to operate, Musical?


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## Bonjules

Musical Chairs said:


> Sometimes I wonder if it would actually be all that much environmentally safer because you'd have to use power to operate these things. Also, it would take longer than just wiping your....


I, along with badgrammar also question if extra power is needed, Musical (the pumping station that delivers the water pressure uses power, of course, unless the water comes gravity-fed from a naturally high reservoir).
The more I think about this water - spout idea, eliminating the need for paper, the more I like it; the only issue -aside from the extra water use- is the drying process. Does the paper creep back in here? Does everybody have a separate (cloth)'drying towelette'? For the hands I never liked these air blowers -they deprive you of a piece of paper with which to touch the (very dirty!) handle of the public bathroom door when you leave- but maybe here air would work well. I have an old, portable forge tha has a very simple hand operated blower wheel. So, if you are concerned about extra power consumption, a few turns of a little crank would deliver a pretty good stream of air to those difficult to mention body parts... I bet it would feel great, esp. after
that hot food somebody mentioned. In fact, this might become so popular
that folks might enjoy spending a little more time..
saludos


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## jlc246

Regarding the Ancient Roman "sponge on a stick" technique for cleaning one's bottom after using the toilet (referenced a few times in earlier posts, maybe around #50 and earlier), a tour guide at Herculaneum told us that the expresion about getting "the wrong end of the stick" came from that kind of stick. That expression will mean a lot more to me from now on!


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## Forero

When I was in Saltillo in 1969, the reason to put the toilet paper in the trash can was evident by the bucket next to the pot:  the water pressure at that altitude was not enough to get the paper down to the big pipes.  I remember once or twice having to fill the bucket with water from the sink to complete flushing the pot.


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