# Language names based on incomprehension



## Riverplatense

Hello!

Are there more examples like Greek βάϱβαϱος 'barbarian' or Slavic нѣмъ-('mute'-)derived expressions meaning 'German' or also 'foreign'? I mean, names for languages or language concepts whose origin consists in incomprehension or maybe also in a pejorative attribution to a given language?


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## rushalaim

Slavic [nemets] meant any _"stranger"_ not German exclusively.
Finnish/Estonian _"mustalainen"_ means literally _"dirty"_ (English _"gypsy"_).
Slavic [zhyd] is neutral a _"jew"_ from Italian _"giudeo"_, but today Jews are perceiving it as a curse.


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## fdb

The Arabic term ʻajam means people who do not speak Arabic, but it is usually used specifically for “Persians”. In mediaeval times it was used even as a self-designation of the Persians without negative implications.


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## Perseas

In Modern Greek "βάρβαρος" means "savage", "brutal", "uncivilized". It does not mean someone who speaks an incomprehensible (foreign) language.



Riverplatense said:


> I mean, names for languages or language concepts whose origin consists in incomprehension or maybe also in a pejorative attribution to a given language?


I don't think we have such names for foreign languages, as far as I know. Of course, there are generalized opinions about languages: Chinese is one of the most difficult languages, Italian is nice and easy, English have irregular spelling, German grammar has similarities with Ancient Greek grammar (because of dative, maybe?)...


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## Stoggler

Perseas said:


> In Modern Greek "βάρβαρος" means "savage", "brutal", "uncivilized". It does not mean someone who speaks an incomprehensible (foreign) language.



What about in Ancient Greek?


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## Perseas

Stoggler said:


> What about in Ancient Greek?


In Αncient Greek βάρβαρος means both, the uncivilized and also the man who speaks an incomprehensible language.


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## ahvalj

rushalaim said:


> Finnish/Estonian _"mustalainen"_ means literally _"dirty"_ (English _"gypsy"_)


_Mustalainen_ means "black (person)". That's just descriptive.

By the way, Slavs must have had really strong feelings to Germanics, as even the word "alien" (Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/ťuďь - Wiktionary) probably comes from the Germanic self-appellation (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/þeudō - Wiktionary).

An interesting case is Androphagi - Wikipedia if indeed it is the same word as _Mordvins _(the ethnonym is first attested as _Mordens_ in the 6th century AD: https://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html): the meaning “man-eaters” may be a Scythian folk etymology (perhaps based on observations, who can tell now?).


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## rushalaim

ahvalj said:


> _Mustalainen_ means "black (person)". That's just descriptive.
> 
> By the way, Slavs must have had really strong feelings to Germanics, as even the word "alien" (Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/ťuďь - Wiktionary) probably comes from the Germanic self-appellation (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/þeudō - Wiktionary).
> 
> An interesting case is Androphagi - Wikipedia if indeed it is the same word as _Mordvins _(the ethnonym is first attested as _Mordens_ in the 6th century AD: https://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html).


Finnish/Estonian [mustalainen] literally means _"dirty"_ (of English _"gypsy"_) because it does not differentiate between "dirty" and between "black", those are the united notion. For example, [must tee] is "black tea", or [mustad kaed] is "dirty hands". So, Gypsies in Finnish/Estonian mentality are black because of dirty.


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## ahvalj

rushalaim said:


> Finnish/Estonian [mustalainen] literally means _"dirty"_ (of English _"gypsy"_) because it does not differentiate between "dirty" and between "black", those are the united notion. For example, [must tee] is "black tea", or [mustad kaed] is "dirty hands". So, Gypsies in Finnish/Estonian mentality are black because of dirty.


And what does the word _чёрные_ “blacks” applied to all brunet nations mean in spoken Russian?


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## Torontal

ahvalj said:


> _Mustalainen_ means "black (person)". That's just descriptive.
> 
> By the way, Slavs must have had really strong feelings to Germanics, as even the word "alien" (Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/ťuďь - Wiktionary) probably comes from the Germanic self-appellation (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/þeudō - Wiktionary).



Interestingly the now archaic name of Slavs* in Hungarian is _tót_, which also comes from this Germanic self-designation. One explanation I heard theorizes that originally it could be the self-designation of a Germanic people  in the Carpathian basin (maybe the Gepids?), which then could pass onto the Slavs living there, as an exonym.

*the word _tót_ was originally the equivalent of Latin _Sclavus_ in old and middle Hungarian, and until the 19th century it was used on Slovaks, Slovenes and Slavonians too, but then in the 19th century it started to be restricted on Slovaks. It is still frequent in toponyms and family names, in fact _Tót(h)_ is the 1st or 2nd most common Hungarian family name, but  it has a rather pejorative, derogative sense if used on Slovaks now.


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## purasbabosadas

In Spanish there's the word "algarabía",meaning "gibberish".This is derived from the name for the Arabic language in Arabic.


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## rushalaim

ahvalj said:


> And what does the word _чёрные_ “blacks” applied to all brunet nations mean in spoken Russian?


"Spoken" Russian not official. Moreover, that spoken slang appeared in Russian no more than 30 years ago and before was none. Otherwise in Finnish/Estonian official language where Gypsies are named as _"Dirty"_ (_"Mustalainen"_) officially in dictionaries.


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## bearded

Perseas said:


> In Αncient Greek βάρβαρος means both, the uncivilized and also the man who speaks an incomprehensible language.


I was taught that AG 'barbaros' was originally an onomatopeic name (bar-bar - today we would say 'blabla') to indicate incomprehensible sounds.


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## momai

In Classical Arabic بربر barbara [v] means to raise your voice and talk gibberish (ununderstood talk/nonsense things). This became hawbar in Syrian Arabic. Apart from that al-barbar specifically refers to the Berbers in north Africa in Arabic.


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## fdb

momai said:


> In Classical Arabic بربر barbara [v] means to raise your voice and talk gibberish (ununderstood talk/nonsense things). This became hawbar in Syrian Arabic. Apart from that al-barbar specifically refers to the Berbers in north Africa in Arabic.



Indeed, but the noun "barbar" is a loan from Greek, and the verb barbara is denominal.


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## sound shift

*Zaza*: an Indo-European language of eastern Turkey.

 "[Zaza] appears to be a pejorative name designating the language as a form of jibberish." (Wikipedia)

'Zaza' appears to be an 'exoterm': one that is used by outsiders and not by the speakers of the language: Avedis Hadjian, _Secret_ _Nation:_ _The Hidden_ _Armenians of Turkey_ (reproduced by Google Books).


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## sotos

My grandma was using the word "arvAno", i.e. "albanian speaker", for my sister when she was little and she couldn't speak well yet. There are indications that greeks (and possibly others) would easily call "albanian" someone speaking an incomprehensible language of the balkans (like vlach, serbian, or mixed languages).


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## Perseas

bearded said:


> I was taught that AG 'barbaros' was originally an onomatopeic name (bar-bar - today we would say 'blabla') to indicate incomprehensible sounds.


Yes, this is what I know too. This "bar-bar" represented the way foreign words sounded to 'Greek ears'. Homer (8th c. BC) used the compound adjective βαρβαρόφωνος, i.e. he who speaks a foreign language. The word took on the pejorative meaning of "savage" after the Persian Wars (5th c. BC).


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## Torontal

sound shift said:


> *Zaza*: an Indo-European language of eastern Turkey.
> 
> "[Zaza] appears to be a pejorative name designating the language as a form of jibberish." (Wikipedia)
> 
> 'Zaza' appears to be an 'exoterm': one that is used by outsiders and not by the speakers of the language: Avedis Hadjian, _Secret_ _Nation:_ _The Hidden_ _Armenians of Turkey_ (reproduced by Google Books).



I'm not so sure if it is true, if it is pejorative or if we can know for certainity that it originally meant "jibberish". What is certain, Zazas use that name on themselves as a self-designation in their own language (happen to know some Zazas) and they also call their language Zazaki.



purasbabosadas said:


> In Spanish there's the word "algarabía",meaning "gibberish".This is derived from the name for the Arabic language in Arabic.



This one is interesting, just looking at the word i would guess that _algarabía_ could be rather related to the Arabic غريبة _ghareeba_ ~ "strange". But i don't doubt your etymology as i have no idea about sound changes in Arabic loanwords to Spanish, so you can be correct.


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## Delvo

In the USA, along a line from Pennsylvania to Missouri, there are scattered small Anabaptist communities (the most famous being the Amish and the Mennonites) speaking a type of German (or more than one types). Because they are surrounded by English-speakers for hundreds of miles in any direction and don't travel much, they practically never interact with outsiders who aren't English-speakers, and now their word for "English" serves as their word for any & all outsiders anywhere in the world.


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## djmc

In the UK "double dutch" is used to mean gibberish. One also hears comments such as "he was talking foreign". It is assumed that anything that is not English and the English are loth to admit that English of the US is really English can be ignored.


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## sound shift

djmc said:


> In the UK "double dutch" is used to mean gibberish. One also hears comments such as "he was talking foreign". It is assumed that anything that is not English and the English are loth to admit that English of the US is really English can be ignored.


Not to mention "It's all Greek to me."


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## Red Arrow

Walloon, Gaul and Welsh come from Proto-Germanic walhaz, meaning foreigner.

Another word with w turning into g.


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## Ansku89

rushalaim said:


> Finnish/Estonian [mustalainen] literally means _"dirty"_ (of English _"gypsy"_) because it does not differentiate between "dirty" and between "black", those are the united notion. For example, [must tee] is "black tea", or [mustad kaed] is "dirty hands". So, Gypsies in Finnish/Estonian mentality are black because of dirty.



This may be true for Estonian (I don't speak it) but definitely isn't true for Finnish. Musta=black, likainen=dirty. At least in modern day Finnish it's that simple. For today's Finnish speakers mustalainen only refers to the darker skin and hair of Roma people. Obviously they aren't black in the same way Africans are black, but when Roma people / gypsies came to Finland, probably nobody here had seen any African people so they were the closest thing to black people that we knew about. But today, mustalainen isn't really a polite word to use and we would normally call them romani.


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## Stoggler

Red Arrow said:


> Walloon, Gaul and Welsh come from Proto-Germanic walhaz, meaning foreigner.
> 
> Another word with w turning into g.



Wallachia also comes from that root


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## danielstan

And the people called Vlachs (by which are referred today the Aromanians in Balkan Peninsula).
Their ethnic name must have come from Slavic intermediary as it suffered the Slavic metathesis AL -> LA
(from a hypothetical _*valh > vlah_)

By the way, neither Romanians refer to themselves as Wallachians, nor the Aromanians as Vlachs. These are exonyms by which the South Slavs refer them.


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## Perseas

danielstan said:


> By the way, neither Romanians refer to themselves as Wallachians


I know that Wallachia is just a part of modern Romania, with Moldavia and Transylvania making up the rest.  Don’t even the residents of Wallachia refer to themselves as Wallachians?


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## danielstan

No.
Before 1859 (when Wallachia and Moldova got united) the inhabitants of Wallachia called themselves '_munteni_' ("mountaineers") in contexts where they wanted to be distinguished from the '_moldoveni_' = inhabitants of Moldova.
Also the word '_rumân_' was used as ethnic name or, sometimes, as social status of peasant.
In Middle Ages the country itself was named _Țeara Rumânească_ or _Țeara Muntenească_ or simply _Muntenia_.

The oldest surviving document written in Romanian (1521) attests the country name _Țeara Rumânească _("Romanian Land"):
Neacșu's letter - Wikipedia


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## Aliph

Riverplatense said:


> Hello!
> 
> Are there more examples like Greek βάϱβαϱος 'barbarian' or Slavic нѣмъ-('mute'-)derived expressions meaning 'German' or also 'foreign'? I mean, names for languages or language concepts whose origin consists in incomprehension or maybe also in a pejorative attribution to a given language?


In Arabic the name for Austria comes from this Slavic root нѣмъ-('mute'-) it is النَمسا an-namsa


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## ajitam

Vukabular said:


> The etymology for the word Vlah/Vlasi  can be found in the name of the Old Slavic deity *Veles*


Source for this claim?


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## bearded

In Northern Italian slang all German-speaking people are called _crucchi _(Bolognese dialect: _cròc_). I think it is an onomatopeic name meaning people who utter guttural sounds.


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## Red Arrow

Vukabular said:


> The term *Vlach* (Serbian: *Vlah* _singular_ - *Vlasi* _plural_) refers to a group of people who live in mountainous areas and engage in livestock breeding. The etymology for the word Vlah/Vlasi  can be found in the name of the Old Slavic deity *Veles* who was considered the patron saint of livestock and herdsmen. With the advent of Christianity, his place was taken by Saint *Blaise* (Serbian: *Vlasije*, Armenian: Սուրբ Վլասի, Soorp *Vlasi*; Greek: Άγιος *Βλάσιος*, Agios *Vlasios*; also known as *Saint Blase*) who is also considered for the patron saint of livestock and herdsmen.


As Stoggler stated, Vlach is related to the English words Walloon, Welsh and Gaul. They all mean "foreign".

It is also apparently related to Hungarian olasz, meaning Italian.
Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/walhaz - Wiktionary


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## Aliph

bearded said:


> In Northern Italian slang all German-speaking people are called _crucchi _(Bolognese dialect: _cròc_). I think it is an onomatopeic name meaning people who utter guttural sounds.


Sorry bearded, that’s not what the encyclopedia Treccani writes. Apparently crucco (or cruco) comes from the Serbo-croate word kruh «bread». During the Second World War the Italian soldiers called the inhabitants of southern Yugoslavia Cruco/cruchi Later on the Italian partisans referred to all German with this word.

I was thinking mistakenly that crucco came from crauti = Kraut in German like it is used in a derogatory way in English .


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## bearded

Aliph said:


> that’s not what the encyclopedia Treccani writes...


My bad: I overlooked that .     Very interesting, thank you Aliph.


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## Olaszinhok

Red Arrow said:


> It is also apparently related to Hungarian olasz, meaning Italian


Wowowo It's related to me, too


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## AndrasBP

Red Arrow said:


> It is also apparently related to Hungarian olasz, meaning Italian.


Also in Polish: 

Włochy - Italy
włoski - Italian


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## Vukabular

Red Arrow said:


> As Stoggler stated, Vlach is related to the English words Walloon, Welsh and Gaul. They all mean "foreign".
> 
> It is also apparently related to Hungarian olasz, meaning Italian.


Vlach, Walloon, Welsh, Gaul, Olasz, Włochy <<< _*Walhaz_ is almost certainly derived from the name of the tribe which was known to the Romans as *Volcae* (in the writings of Julius Caesar) and to the Greeks as Οὐόλκαι / _Ouólkai _(Strabo and Ptolemy). Germanic speakers generalised this name first to all Celts, and later to all Romans and Romanised peoples. Old High German _Walh_ became _Walch_ in Middle High German, and the adjective OHG _walhisk_ became MHG _welsch_, e.g. in the 1240 "Alexander romance" by Rudolf von Ems – resulting in _Welsche_ in Early New High German and modern Swiss German as the exonym for all Romance speakers. 
Most modern Celticists regard the tribal name _Uolcae_ as being related to Welsh: _gwalch _(hawk) or some prefer to translate Gaulish _*uolco-_ as *'wolf'* and, by semantic extension, 'errant warrior' - Xavier Delamarre, "_Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise"._
*Volcae* << *Volk* (Russian: *волк* "wolf"; Serbian: *vuk* "wolf") << **vь̑lkъ* (Proto Slavic) << _*wĺ̥kʷos_ (PIE) >> _**lúkʷos*_ → _λύκος_ (lúkos))


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## Vukabular

Latvian: *vāci*  [vāːtsi] Germans (people from Germany; members of the German people; the German people as a whole). Its source would be PIE _**wekʷ-*_ (“to speak”), whence Old Prussian _*wackis*_ ([vakis], “shout, war cry”), Sanskrit _वक्ति_ (*vákti*, “to speak, to say”), Serbian _*vikati* _("to speak out loud"), Latin _*vox*_ (“voice, sound, talk”). This stem might have been used to form a word (perhaps _**vākyā-*_) to designate foreigners, meaning originally something like “those who speak loud, shout (unintelligibly)”.
<Removed by moderator - EHL rule #15>


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## Olaszinhok

Perseas said:


> languages: Chinese is one of the most difficult languages, Italian is nice and easy, English have irregular spelling, German grammar has similarities with Ancient Greek grammar (because of dative, maybe?)...


I wouldn't call that general opinions but clichés. Italian is one of the most beautiful languages on earth, though (out of more 7000 tongues).  

Obviously along with French...


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## Vukabular

The Ottoman Turks called the Serbs *raja* ("crowd") or Vlasi ("Vlachs"). *raja* ("crowd") << *graja* ("noise from crowd"). Bosniaks and Croatians call Serbians Vlasi ("Vlachs"). Serbians call people from east Serbia who speak Vlachs language Vlasi ("Vlachs"). Vlachs from east Serbia refer themselves as Vlasi and/or Serbians...


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## Perseas

Vukabular said:


> The Ottoman Turks called the Serbs *raja* ("crowd") or Vlasi ("Vlachs"). *raja* ("crowd") << *graja* ("noise from crowd").


Do you mean "rayah"? Ottoman Turks didn't call only the Serbs like that but non-Muslim subjects in particular.
Rayah - Wikipedia



Olaszinhok said:


> I wouldn't call that general opinions but clichés. Italian is one of the most beautiful languages on earth, though (out of more 7000 tongues).


Some of my examples were not meant to be taken literally (like that with the similarity of Anc. Greek and German). But is a cliché that Chinese is a difficult language for Europeans or that English have an irregular spelling? And Italian language is a beautiful language, we agree!


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## GraVin

Dutch has the word "allochtoon" meaning _foreign. _Its use has been deprecated by some (the words "vreemd" and "buitenlands" being preferred) owing to a tendency to apply allochoon only in a domestic immigration policy context to nationals of certain countries (both in the Netherlands and Belgium), its "hue" having thereby gone "off colour". In short, its (spitefully) targeted use by some political groups results in adherents of others avoiding using the word at all. Its dictionary definition remains unblemished however.


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## Red Arrow

GraVin said:


> Dutch has the word "allochtoon" meaning _foreign. _Its use has been deprecated by some (the words "vreemd" and "buitenlands" being preferred) owing to a tendency to apply allochoon only in a domestic immigration policy context to nationals of certain countries (both in the Netherlands and Belgium), its "hue" having thereby gone "off colour". In short, its (spitefully) targeted use by some political groups results in adherents of others avoiding using the word at all. Its dictionary definition remains unblemished however.


There is no language called Allochtoons. Not yet.


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## ahvalj

Perseas said:


> And Italian language is a beautiful language, we agree!


As a sidenote: some ten years ago, I browsed the web searching people's opinions about different languages, and, except two European languages that nobody seemed to like, every other I could think of, including the most unpleasantly sounding ones (from my perspective), had their fans…


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## Vukabular

danielstan said:


> Before 1859 (when Wallachia and Moldova got united) the inhabitants of Wallachia called themselves '_munteni_' ("*mountaineers*")


In Serbian language term "Vlah" is related to Vlachs and/or to shepherds living in *mountainous* areas. Until recently, they were mainly engaged in the manufacture of woolen products. Sheepskin hat with wool on the outside is part of the traditional Vlach costume.
*Vlah* (singular) << *Vlas* (archaic) << *Vlasi* (plural) - "Vlach, Vlachs" 
*vlas* (singular) >> *vlasi* (plural) - "hair"
*vlakno* "fiber"
*vuna*  << *vь̀lna* >> *vlna* (Czech, Slovak) - "wool"
*vlkam vlnu* (archaic) - "twine the wool"
*lan* - "linen, flax"
*lanen* - "made of linen, flax"


Red Arrow said:


> As Stoggler stated, Vlach is related to the English words *Walloon*, *Welsh* and *Gaul*.


f*lan*nel (warm, loosely woven woolen stuff) c. 1300, flaunneol, probably related to Middle English f*lanen* "sackcloth" (c. 1400); by Skeat and others traced to *Welsh* g*wlanen *"woolen cloth," from g*wlan* "wool," from Celtic **wlana*. "As flannel was already in the 16th c. a well-known production of *Wales*, a *Welsh* origin for the word seems antecedently likely" [OED].


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## sotos

GraVin said:


> Dutch has the word "allochtoon" meaning _foreign. _


Interesting. From the Greek allos (=other) + A.Gr.  chthon (= earth). In Greek is very old-fashioned or archaic. Curious, how this word came into Dutch.


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## Olaszinhok

ahvalj said:


> I browsed the web searching people's opinions about different languages, and, except two


Undoubtedly, there are languages which are preferred over others, Italian and French are among them, at least in Europe. In my previous post, I was kidding, though.
As for me, honestly, I am not able to judge my own language, althought I do like some characteristics: the numerous geminate consonants and a few grammar features. However,  I do not think it would be one of my favourites: it is too noisy!  French is like silk to my ears and it is so relaxing, I also adore British English (RP), Russian, European Portuguese and Arabic. Greek is not bad, either. Continental Spanish is generally nice, but some Spanish varieties are simply hideous. This is just me, sorry. 
I'm getting interested in Georgian, now


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## GraVin

"Ausländisch" (foreign) in German recalls that word's English cognate of "outlandish". Ironically, the German word has the modern meaning "foreign" and an archaic meaning of "bizarre". The English word's moved in precisely the opposite direction: today, "bizarre"; in times gone by, "foreign".


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