# Nothing (pronunciation of TH /F)



## Marionetta

Hola, en alguna serie/película inglesa he visto a algún personaje (generalmente joven o muy joven) transformar la -TH- de noTHing en -F- al pronunciar la palabra, de forma voluntaria.
Querría saber si es algo extendido entre un grupo de gente concreta, o si está enlazado con el nivel de "educación", o si es slang o algún modismo... ¿alguien que pueda arrojar un poco de luz sobre el tema?
Gracias


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## chicoguapo16

Convertir el sonido de TH en el de F es sin duda algo que hacen muchos niños angloparlantes. Mi primo tiene 2 años y dice "noFing" en vez de "nothing" y "fing" en vez de "thing," por ejemplo. Sin embargo, tengo que mencionar que un amigo de Nueva York todavía pronuncia la F aunque tiene 23 años.


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## Marionetta

¿Se achacaría entonces simplemente a un "defecto" del habla? ¿es decir, la persona que lo pronuncia así, no lo estaría haciendo de forma consciente? No tiene que ver con la zona donde hayas crecido, ni se trata de slang ni de algo que se diga porque "suena cool" ni nada similar, ¿no?


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## Orejitas

Aparte de una pronunciacion de ninos aprendiendo a hablar, creo que es una pronunciacion de un dialecto en inglaterra, a cockney accent, pero a lo mejor un ingles podria explicar mas.


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## Marionetta

Esperaremos entonces a que algún/a nativo inglés nos cuente algo al respecto 
¡Gracias a ambos por las respuestas!


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## chicoguapo16

Yo no diría que es un defecto, sino simplemente un dialecto del inglés como dice Orejitas. Tanto ese dialecto de Nueva York como el de ciertas partes de Inglaterra varían en las pronunciaciones de varios sonidos y la F en vez de TH es una de esas variaciones, creo yo.


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## duvija

¿De veras no quieren hablar de etnias? La f en lugar de th es muy usada en la población negra (y no creo que sea solamente en Chicago, pero a ver si me convencen.)


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## Agró

duvija said:


> ¿De veras no quieren hablar de etnias? La f en lugar de th es muy usada en la población negra (y no creo que sea solamente en Chicago, pero a ver si me convencen.)



Por aquí teníamos un famoso locutor de radio, andaluz, que no pronunciaba la zeta y pronunciaba efes en su lugar (Faragofa). No sé si lo hacía para ocultar su seseo natural o si tenía alguna incapacidad articulatoria.

Aparte de este caso, que es más bien anecdótico, por aquí no es común encontrar este fenómeno.


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## Marionetta

duvija said:


> ¿De veras no quieren hablar de etnias? La f en lugar de th es muy usada en la población negra (y no creo que sea solamente en Chicago, pero a ver si me convencen.)


También pensé en ello, pero en las dos series que ahora recuerdo haberlo visto (Oliver Twist -uno de los niños-bandido- y Ashes to ashes -un adolescente-) ambos personajes eran blancos, por eso mi duda acerca de su uso.


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## _SantiWR_

Como se ha dicho, es una característica del Cockney, un acento de Londres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney#Cockney_speech


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## k-in-sc

Saying "f" for ''th" sounds like you never learned to speak properly.


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## duvija

k-in-sc said:


> Saying "f" for ''th" sounds like you never learned to speak properly.




Ahhhhhhh, could you elaborate? (you're talking about the whole Chicago South side...). And if you listen to black comedians, ...
For some people it may be a speech defect, but for most, it isn't .

Let's see. Acoustically, the th and the f are pretty similar. Actually, very similar. And I would dare say 'too similar'. I used to 'cecear' when I was a child and everybody (in Montevideo, so no examples of f/th variation as in Chicago) would call by my name, that has an 's' in it, pronouncing it like f . (Oh, the nightmares...)


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## k-in-sc

You used to lisp?


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## abb1025

duvija said:


> Ahhhhhhh, could you elaborate? (you're talking about the whole Chicago South side...). And if you listen to black comedians, ...
> For some people it may be a speech defect, but for most, it isn't .




This pronunciation is common in black English, and is written as nuffin, or nuffin' in current hip hop lyrics as well as in classic works of American literature. Here's a famous quote from Paul Laurence Dunbar's poem "Philosophy":

But it's easy 'nough to titter w'en de stew is smokin' hot,
But hit's mighty ha'd to giggle w'en dey's nuffin' in de pot.


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## Ricardo II

In South Carolina and Georgia, we also hear wuf for with.  Same groups mentioned in other replies.


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## duvija

k-in-sc said:


> You used to lisp?



'thi'


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## k-in-sc

duvija said:


> 'thi'


Little Duvija, with her freckles and pigtails ... 
My points about ethnic speech: If you can't talk like mainstream society, you're going to be excluded from it. And just because some native speakers don't pronounce the "th" sounds properly doesn't mean it's acceptable for non-natives not to learn to pronounce them.


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## abb1025

In the U.S., many native speakers who speak a dialect—whether regional or ethnic--can also speak Standard English, and they can switch back and forth between the two quite easily. In fact most people speak in different registers, adapting their language to the occasion, which is one way of gaining acceptance in society, "mainstream" or otherwise. It would be hard to imagine a wider acceptance in mainstream society than being elected president, yet I can think of three presidents off the top of my head who used some dialect.

President Obama speaks in dialect from time to time. He has commented on it: "The fact that I conjugate my verbs and speak in a typical Midwestern newscaster's voice -- there's no doubt that this helps ease communication between myself and white audiences. And there's no doubt that when I'm with a black audience I slip into a slightly different dialect. But the point is, I don't feel the need to speak a certain way in front of a black audience. There's a level of self-consciousness about these issues the previous generation had to negotiate that I don't feel I have to."

President Jimmy Carter was famous for pronouncing nuclear “nucular,” and John F. Kennedy pronounced Cuba as “Cuber.”

In any event, Marionett asked who used this pronunciation, not whether it was “proper,” and I haven’t seen anyone advocate that non-natives use it.


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## Marionetta

Diría sin temor a equivocarme, que los casos que me han traído hasta aquí a preguntaros se trataban del "cockney accent" que habéis comentado, así que duda principal resuelta.
Y de paso he aprendido unas cuantas cosas más que la que había preguntado, ¡es genial! 
¡Gracias por todas las respuestas!


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## duvija

k-in-sc said:


> Little Duvija, with her freckles and pigtails ...
> My points about ethnic speech: If you can't talk like mainstream society, you're going to be excluded from it. And just because some native speakers don't pronounce the "th" sounds properly doesn't mean it's acceptable for non-natives not to learn to pronounce them.



Hey, the question wasn't about learning to pronounce _th,_ or not! It was to know who uses it and who doesn't. At least that's what I understood...


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## duvija

abb1025 said:


> In the U.S., many native speakers who speak a dialect—whether regional or ethnic--can also speak Standard English, and they can switch back and forth between the two quite easily. In fact most people speak in different registers, adapting their language to the occasion, which is one way of gaining acceptance in society, "mainstream" or otherwise. It would be hard to imagine a wider acceptance in mainstream society than being elected president, yet I can think of three presidents off the top of my head who used some dialect.
> 
> President Obama speaks in dialect from time to time. He has commented on it: "The fact that I conjugate my verbs and speak in a typical Midwestern newscaster's voice -- there's no doubt that this helps ease communication between myself and white audiences. And there's no doubt that when I'm with a black audience I slip into a slightly different dialect. But the point is, I don't feel the need to speak a certain way in front of a black audience. There's a level of self-consciousness about these issues the previous generation had to negotiate that I don't feel I have to."
> 
> President Jimmy Carter was famous for pronouncing nuclear “nucular,” and John F. Kennedy pronounced Cuba as “Cuber.”
> 
> In any event, Marionett asked who used this pronunciation, not whether it was “proper,” and I haven’t seen anyone advocate that non-natives use it.



OK, you said 'many natives', and that's right. But not everybody speaks 'white' English. I had to teach some classes in a very peculiar place, and trust me, no one did...


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## k-in-sc

duvija said:


> Hey, the question wasn't about learning to pronounce _th,_ or not! It was to know who uses it and who doesn't. At least that's what I understood...


Alternatives to the "th" sound don't sound good no matter what they are or who is saying them.


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## Tegs

k-in-sc said:


> Alternatives to the "th" sound don't sound good no matter what they are or who is saying them.


This is a matter of opinion. In the south of Ireland, it is common to hear th simply pronounced as a hard t. There is nothing wrong with this or ugly about it - it is simply a feature of a particular dialect.


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## Inesacondesa

OMG! Are we giving opinions or are we providing information? Ok, that cockney accent, as Orejitas said, is a common accent in many parts of the world. But, as you are talking about England, I will just say that this is a very common accent in the South of England, especially in London. 

They say: "I fink you are stupid" or "I will say nofin". It's just a dialect... People tend to talk in different ways depending on wherever they live. This is not wrong, incorrect or ugly. It's just what it is. That's all.


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## duvija

Inesacondesa said:


> OMG! Are we giving opinions or are we providing information? Ok, that cockney accent, as Orejitas said, is a common accent in many parts of the world. But, as you are talking about England, I will just say that this is a very common accent in the South of England, especially in London.
> 
> They say: "I fink you are stupid" or "I will say nofin". It's just a dialect... People tend to talk in different ways depending on wherever they live. This is not wrong, incorrect or ugly. It's just what it is. That's all.



Well, if you teach English, would you ever teach that sound? I think not. And you wouldn't teach it as [t] or as [s] either. (I have a Uruguayan friend in Chicago and her daughter asked her a question, to which she answered [I'm sinking, I'm sinking]. We had no problem understanding it, but teaching it???)


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## Tegs

The point Inesa and I were making is not to do with foreigners learning English but with native speakers. Implying that certain native pronunciations are ugly simply doesn't contribute any useful information for the forum.


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## k-in-sc

OK, replace "don't sound good" with "brand you as a speaker of a dialect, if not a language other than English."


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## RebeJC

The original question addressed the th/f in young/very young people vs. th/f in dialects.  And so, back on topic we go!  

The exchange of f for th is very common in young children in pretty much every part of the US.  F is a more simple sound to make and easier to mimic.  Generally as children grow they learn to control the tongue better and change their pronunciation...and no one likes to be teased, so peer pressure kicks in. 

Yes, f replaces th in some dialects, such as inner-city black neighborhoods.  It's an accent.  Generally speaking, it's an accent that has a bit of a "gangsta" connotation. 

Espero que eso fue entendible y les ayudó un poco!


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## Marionetta

Tegs said:


> The point Inesa and I were making is not to do with  foreigners learning English but with native speakers. Implying that  certain native pronunciations are ugly simply doesn't contribute any  useful information for the forum.


True, plus using "ugliness" or "coolness" to describe this sort of things is nothing but a matter of subjectivity, as someone has pointed out already 

Thanks for all your useful answers!


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