# das ist nur anders (adjective/adverb?)



## HifaMo

Hello,

My dictionary (PONS) implies 'anders' can only be an adverb, but I see cases in which it sounds an adjective, as in the examples below. I think it describes 'das' in both sentences.

1. Das ist seltsam. Nein, das ist nur anders!
2. Aber heute ist das anders.

What do you think please?

Thank you.


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## Kajjo

Adverbs can be used predicatively. They are not inflected. Both your examples use adverbs in predicative function.

canoonet - Adverb: Funktion

canoonet - Satzglieder: Prädikat: Prädikative


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## bearded

Hello
As a predicate, 'anders' can also have an adjectival function (=andersartig). See Duden: Duden (meanings 1b, 1c).

-- crossed with Kajjo --


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## JClaudeK

HifaMo said:


> My dictionary (PONS) implies 'anders' can only be an adverb


In Pons (German - French), both (adverb & adjective) are mentioned.


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## HifaMo

Thank you for the answers.


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## HifaMo

JClaudeK said:


> In Pons (German - French), both (adverb & adjective) are mentioned.



I'm using "PONS Wörterbuch Premium Englisch," desktop version. Only the 'adv' abbreviation is mentioned, at the top.


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## JClaudeK

HifaMo said:


> Only the 'adv' abbreviation is mentioned


Das ist ein Irrtum.


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## HifaMo

JClaudeK said:


> Das ist ein Irrtum.


I don't think it is an error. It might be one of these issues or quibbles around which linguists disagree. I've checked other major dictionaries (offline), and most don't think it is an adj, among which are PONS Wörterbuch Premium Englisch, Duden das Große Wörterbuch, Oxford-Duden, and Collins. Two or three say it can be an adj, such as Langenscheidt Expert-Wörterbuch Englisch. The English-German version of the online dictionary you cited doesn't say it is an adj, unlike the French-German. Anyway, I'm convinced that it has an adjectival function as other members said.
Thank you.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> Adverbs can be used predicatively. They are not inflected. Both your examples use adverbs in predicative function.
> 
> canoonet - Adverb: Funktion
> 
> canoonet - Satzglieder: Prädikat: Prädikative





JClaudeK said:


> In Pons (German - French), both (adverb & adjective) are mentioned.


The border between adverb and predicative adjective are a bit blurred in German because of the missing morphological markers of both predivatively and adverbially use adjectives. You can probably interpret it either way.

I personally agree with @Kajjo and prefer the interpretation as a predicative adverb because of the adverbial marker _-s_. And most dictionaries agree with us as well, notably Grimm, Duden and DWDS, which I would consider to be the most authoritative ones. Neither of the three lists _anders_ as an adjective.


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## Kajjo

Adverbs can be used as predicative. So the title sentence is fine and explainable.

An adjective can be declined and "anders" obviously cannot. So I am doubtful whether "anders" should be called an adjective.


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> An adjective can be declined and "anders" obviously cannot. So I am doubtful whether "anders" should be called an adjective.


I suppose, you *could* say it is a _derived adjective, which is only used predicatively_. But that looks like an unnecessary complication to me. I find the analysis as a _predicative adverb_ much more elegant and convincing.


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## Kajjo

berndf said:


> you *could* say it is a _derived adjective, which is only used predivatively_. But that looks like an unnecessary complication to me. I find the analysis as a _predicatively adverb_ much more elegant and convincing.


Yes, maybe, but there is really no necessity to do so, since many adverbs (including many that cannot be interpreted as derived adjectives) are used predicatively.

Adverbs used predicatively are standard and no exception, including "anders".


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## berndf

Kajjo said:


> there is really no necessity to do so


My point as well.


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## Hutschi

Kajjo said:


> ... since many adverbs (including many that cannot be interpreted as derived adjectives) are used predicatively.
> 
> Adverbs used predicatively are standard and no exception, including "anders".



Duden gives as definition for an adverb: 





> "[unflektierbares] Wort, das ein im Satz genanntes Verb, ein Substantiv, ein Adjektiv oder ein anderes Adverb seinem Umstand nach näher bestimmt; Umstandswort (z. B. abends, drüben, fatalerweise)"


 - it is defined semantically.

Basically the same is Merriam Webster: Definition of ADVERB


> : a word belonging to one of the major form classes in any of numerous languages, typically serving as a modifier of a verb, an adjective, another adverb, a preposition, a phrase, a clause, or a sentence, expressing some relation of manner or quality, place, time, degree, number, cause, opposition, affirmation, or denial, and in English also serving to connect and to express comment on clause content
> 
> In "arrived early" the word "early" is an adverb.



This confirms that it can be used predicative.


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> This confirms that it can be used predicative.


No, _arrive early_ is not an example of a predicative adverb but an ordinary adverbial use. Valid examples of a predicative uses are _he is there_, _the kitchen is upstairs_.


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## Hutschi

I was not clear. I meant, the definition confirms it. I was unaware of that the principle of short binding made it fuzzy. Thanks for clarification. The definition includes predicative usage.

Is there a difference between predicative and predictive?

In predicative usage it explains the verb.
It is not strange that an adverb is used this way. (The predicate is mostly a verb/verb group.)


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## berndf

Hutschi said:


> Is there a difference between predicative and predictive?


The autocorrection of my phone. It keeps thinking _predicative_ is a typo and "corrects" it to _predictive_.  I'll go through my posts and correct these cases. Sorry about that.


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## Perseas

Ich stimme Kajjo und berndf zu. Ein Adverb kann als Subjektsprädikativ fungieren. Weitere Beispiele:
_Wir sind alle *da*.
In den letzten Jahren ist er *anders* geworden._
Das Prädikativ - Prädikativ -


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> An adjective can be declined and "anders" obviously cannot.


 I don’t think indeclinability is a good criterion. 

“Rosa,” “prima,” and “klasse” are indeclinable adjectives.  

One way in which “anders” _does_ behave differently from adjectives is that it cannot be used attributively:

_ein rosa Kleid 
ein prima Vorschlag 
eine klasse Arbeit 
ein anders Buch 
_
That said, semantically it seems to be an adjective to me.  Are there any _semantic_ arguments for classifying it as an adverb?


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## bearded

I think that in a sentence like _Er benimmt sich anders _'anders' is semantically an adverb (= he behaves differently), i.e. ''in anderer Weise''.
I would say that 'anders' is a word that can be used both as an adverb or (predicatively) as an adjective.
Also in the expression _anders als er _I think it is probably used as an adverb - although in English it would not be so clear  ''other than/different from..'' - as in Romance languages an adverb would be used: _diversamente da lui/autrement(différemment) que..._


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## Hutschi

Hi, there are several theories about classification of kinds of words.

In the classification, I learned in school, there are semantic reasons.

Du musst das *anders machen*. It cannot be used as adjective, but in the verb phrase.

It was not fully consistent, because: If a verb is an adjective, it is not classified as adverb. So even if you use it as adverb it remains an adjective according to school grammar in the 1960ths.

This way, the reason is not fully syntactically considering syntax of a sentence.

It is called "Umstandswort". And indeed the main difference to an adjective is that it is not declined.

Adverbien / Umstandswörter - mein-deutschbuch.de



> Adverbien, auch Umstandswörter genannt, sind unveränderlich, das heißt, dass man sie nicht deklinieren kann. Adverbien bezeichnen die Umstände eines einzelnen Wortes oder eines ganzen Satzes näher.


---
There are other theories, where it depends on (syntactical or semantical) function. In these an adjective and an adverb can be synonyms in the sense that the same word can be both, dependend on usage. Such happens in English, if I understand it well. Usually in English an adverb is marked with "...ly". But there are other adverbs, too, that are unmarked in English. An English word can be both adjective and adverb.

In German, a preposition can be an adverb. "Die Tür ist zu."
(In non-standard coll. language this is even used as adjective: die zune Tür in analogy to "die offene Tür", die "aufe" Tür is not used.)

We learned 10 kinds of words for German.
---
In German it is mainly the form (you cannot decline it), deciding whether it is an adverb; only very few such words - you cannot decline - are considered as adjectives, like "rosa".
But there exists a non-standard declination, _die rosane Blume_. The feeling is that it is an adjective.

---
According to the "Fünf-Wortarten-Lehre" adverbs do not exist. They are just particles. Wortart – Wikipedia

It also considers only flexion. If there is no flexion it is a particle.
---


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## Perseas

I think, an adjective can be used either way, attributively or predicatively. For example:
Ein schöner Film
Der Film ist schön 

But adverbs can‘t be used attributively:
Ein anders Buch
Das Buch ist anders 

„anders“ works here only as a predicative and there are some other adverbs that can function in the same way as „da“, „dort“ or more.


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## elroy

But _semantically_, I see no absolutely no difference between “Das Buch ist schön” and “Das Buch ist anders,” whereas I see a clear difference between either of those and “Das Buch ist hier/da/dort.”  Perhaps “anders” originated as an adverb both semantically and syntactically, but now only retains syntactic adverbial behavior consistently, while at times having adjectival features semantically.  To insist that it is just an adverb, with no qualifiers, because of its syntactic behavior is to ignore the crucial and fundamental semantic difference between “Das Buch ist anders” and “Das sehe ich anders.”


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## Hutschi

Hi, elroy, this is why I did not understand it. It breaks symmetry rules.
But language is a result of long developments.
There seems only remain the word's morphologic rules.

The semantical and syntactical borders are not strict.
And: words may change.

Ein anders Wort.
Ein ander's Wort.
Ein anders mal/Mal. (_Mal _kann Substantiv sein.) Duden | mal/Mal
Die anderen Male. (Substantiv "Mal")


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> I don’t think indeclinability is a good criterion.
> 
> “Rosa,” “prima,” and “klasse” are indeclinable adjectives.


I fully agree with you, it's not a good criterion, at least not in this direction. But were it declinable, that would be a good indication to consider it to be an adjective, right? Do you have any argument or examples against this reverse direction?



elroy said:


> But _semantically_, I see no absolutely no difference between “Das Buch ist schön” and “Das Buch ist anders,”


I don't understand what you mena with "semantically" here. If adjectives are used adverbially, they retain the same meaning, but they change the class from adjective to adverb. Adverbs that cannot be used attributively/adjectively, are adverbs, no matter which meaning they have.

_Das Buch liest sich angenehm. <Adverb: angenehm>
_
Of course, the dictionary word "angenehm" is an adjective, but in the sentence it is used adverbially. 

_Das Buch ist toll. <Adverb, used predicatively: toll>_

Of course, the dictionary word "toll" is an adjective, but in the sentence it is used predicatively. 

Maybe you mean that a _property _like "anders" is more like an adjective compared with adverbs like "dorthin" which do not represent a property.


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## Perseas

elroy said:


> But _semantically_, I see no absolutely no difference between “Das Buch ist schön” and “Das Buch ist anders,”


I agree. But, in my opinion, this is because both "schön" and "anders" are predicatives of the subject, and not because both are adjectives.

Subject predicatives can be nouns, adjectives, prepositional phrases, adverbs and even subordinate clauses. Source.

Let's have those sentences:
Dieses Buch ist schön.
Dieses Buch ist anders.
Dieses Buch ist, was ich schon immer suchte.
Dieses Problem ist von großer Bedeutung.
Er wird immer bleiben, wie er ist.

All five elements in red behave in the same way, ie. they refer to a subject as predicatives and describe it as having a property or a characteristic or as being in a certain state.


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## Hutschi

Kajjo said:


> ...
> 
> I don't understand what you mean with "semantically" here. If adjectives are used adverbially, they retain the same meaning, but they change the class from adjective to adverb. ...



This is very clear, and I have the same opinion.
What I never understood in school: If it changes the verb class, why is it not an adverb then?

Why can a word form not be an adjective and an adverb, depending on function rather than pure morphology?

In English it seems to be possible.

And the word class would be clear this way.

Otherwise, then the word class "participles" would have to be split. 
(Der Teufel würde mit Beelzebub ausgetrieben.)


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## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> Why can a word form not be an adjective and an adverb, depending on function rather than pure morphology?


Well, it can, in my opinion. Of course a word like "angenehm" in my example in #25 can be an adverb or an adjective, depending on its actual function in a sentence.

The adverbial usage of an adjective turns the word into an adverb for this single sentence -- that would be an acceptable definiton for me. I guess, it is just a dictionary issue to list adjectives as adjectives and to know they can be used as adverbs. However, words listed as adverbs usually cannot be used attributively, i.e. as adjective.

An "adjective that can be used adverbially" or a "word that can be used as adjective or adverb" are more or less the same and just a question of definition. However, I prefer the first version, i.e. most adjectives can be used as adverb, too.


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## elroy

Kajjo said:


> But were it declinable, that would be a good indication to consider it to be an adjective, right?


 Sure, but that doesn't prove anything.  That may be a sufficient but not necessary condition for assigning adjective status.  In other words, maybe it's the case that if a modifier _is_ declinable, it's definitely an adjective, but if it's _not_ declinable, it could be either and the jury's still out.  In other words, we need to dig deeper.


Kajjo said:


> Do you have any argument or examples against this reverse direction?


 Do you mean examples of declinable modifiers that are _not_ adjectives?  No, but how does that prove anything about "anders," which is not declinable (see above)?


Kajjo said:


> I don't understand what you mena with "semantically" here.


 What I mean is this:

1. Das Buch ist schön.
2. Das Buch ist anders.
3. Das Buch ist hier.

In 1 and 2, the relationship between the modifier and the noun is the same; both describe a quality of the book that applies generally.  3 is fundamentally different because it only describes something about the book right now; it's only telling us where the book happens to be located right now.  It's not a general quality of the book.

4. Das Buch ist schön, spannend und anders.
5. Das Buch ist schön, spannend und hier.

I believe 4 works and flows well, whereas 5 is at least unidiomatic, if not downright wrong. 





Kajjo said:


> Maybe you mean that a _property _like "anders" is more like an adjective compared with adverbs like "dorthin" which do not represent a property.


 


Kajjo said:


> Adverbs that cannot be used attributively/adjectively, are adverbs, no matter which meaning they have.


 Well, that's what we're trying to decide.  Are you just categorically saying that any modifier that cannot be used attributively is an adverb?  Is that your criterion for classifying adverbs and adjectives as such?

From an English-speaking perspective, it has to do with _what_ the modifier is modifying.  If it's modifying a noun, it's an adjective; if it's modifying a verb or another modifier, it's an adverb.

6. The book is different.
7. The book is here.

In English, "different" is an adjective because it's modifying "book," while "here" is an adverb because it's modifying "is." 

My question here is whether this semantic factor should be considered in analyzing "anders."  "Anders" seems to be an exception in that I don't think there are too many, if any, other examples of modifiers that cannot be used attributively yet (can) have adjectival characteristics semantically.  My guess is that historically, there was a semantic shift from adverbial characteristics to adjectival characteristics, but the syntactic and morphological behavior of the word remained unchanged/frozen.  I think it is an oversimplification to just say it's an adverb and leave it at that.


Kajjo said:


> _Das Buch ist toll. <Adverb, used predicatively: toll>_




Are you saying _all_ predicative modifiers are adverbs??


Perseas said:


> in my opinion, this is because both "schön" and "anders" are predicatives of the subject, and not because both are adjectives.


 Their position as predicatives doesn't tell us anything about their semantics.  That's just a syntactic thing.


Perseas said:


> Dieses Buch ist schön.
> Dieses Buch ist anders.
> Dieses Buch ist, was ich schon immer suchte.
> Dieses Problem ist von großer Bedeutung.
> Er wird immer bleiben, wie er ist.
> 
> All five elements in red behave in the same way, ie. they refer to a subject as predicatives and describe it as having a property or a characteristic or as being in a certain state.


 Correct, but that doesn't answer the question of which ones are adjectives/adjectival and which ones are adverbs/adverbial.  As you yourself said,


Perseas said:


> Subject predicatives can be nouns, adjectives, prepositional phrases, adverbs and even subordinate clauses. Source.


 So how do you decide?

Kajjo is invoking a purely syntactic criterion ("if they cannot be used attributively, they are not adjectives")
I am invoking, or at least throwing out for consideration, a semantic criterion (semantically, predicative "anders" is like predicative "schön" but unlike predicative "hier").
In English grammatical analysis, semantics matters a lot.  It does in German too, but maybe not in this particular case?  If that's true, then the terms "adverb" in English and "Adverb" in German don't mean the same exact thing (false friends, in a way!).


Hutschi said:


> Why can a word form not be an adjective and an adverb, depending on function rather than pure morphology or syntax?


 That's my question, too.  This is the crux of the matter. 


Hutschi said:


> In English it seems to be possible.


 It's not only possible, but a fundamental aspect of English grammatical analysis.

8. I am meeting you at 7.
9. I had a meeting with my boss.
10. Please send me the meeting minutes.

"Meeting" is originally a verb form, but without batting an eyelid we analyze it as a noun in 9 and an adjective in 10.  In 9, it is a verb form used as a noun.  In 10, we take it a step further.  The established verb-derived noun usage now gives way to an adjective usage: it's a verb-derived noun used as an adjective.


Kajjo said:


> However, words listed as adverbs usually cannot be used attributively


 Well, they usually _can_, with morphological adaptations.

Das Buch ist hier. > das hiesige Buch
Das Buch ist dort. > das dortige Buch
Das Buch ist besonders. > das besondere Buch

The interesting thing about "anders" is that there's not even a morphological adaptation that it can undergo to allow it to be used attributively ("das andere Buch" has a different meaning).

Maybe my parenthetical insertion is actually the reason!  Maybe you can't say "das andere Buch" to mean "the different book" because "the other book" is such a predominant meaning that it is, in effect, the only possible one.


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## Hutschi

Hi, we did not speak about comparativ and superlative. Adverbs do not seldom have them in German language. (Example for exception: oft, öfter)  (Edit: exceptions)

anders
anderser
am andersten

1. Das Buch ist schön/schöner/am schönsten.
2. Das Buch ist anders/anderser/am andersten.
3. Das Buch ist hier/hierer/am hiersten.

This does not explain words like "rosa", however. But such words are extremely seldom.

(Many folk uses comparative of Rose, even if non-standard. I think such non-standard usage can be considered when we try to understand how our language faculty in the brain works.)

Edit:
---
English and German grammarians use different assignments for adjective and adverb.
I'm sure if we search we will find grammarians who support the English way in German, too.


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## elroy

Hutschi said:


> This does not explain words like "rosa", however. But such words are extremely seldom.


 So is "anders"!


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## Perseas

elroy said:


> So how do you decide?
> 
> Kajjo is invoking a purely syntactic criterion ("if they cannot be used attributively, they are not adjectives")


Yes, I agree. I have also written above:


Perseas said:


> adverbs can‘t be used attributively



Maybe another criterion is the way of asking. Adverbs answer the questions "How?", "When?", "Where?", "Why?", "In what way" etc. Whereas the adjective questions are "which?", "what kind?"...
If I am not mistaken, in "Dieses Buch ist anders", "anders" would be the answer to ("wie?") "how?".

Also in English, „well“ or „fine“ are adverbs in „I am fine/well“. Aren‘t they?


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## Hutschi

I looked up Grimm's dictionary.

Wörterbuchnetz - Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm

There are too such words:



> ANDERS, aliud, mhd. anderʒ, gewöhnlich aber ander, nom. acc. n., von dem folgenden genitivischen anders unterschieden: das ist ein* anders, eine andere sache, ein ander ding;* *was anders* ist gemeint? anders ist versprechen, anders halten; machen ist ein anders denn anbeten. Luther 3, 38b; es wird doch in zehn jaren wol ein anders werden. 3, 90b; sein wesen ist gar ein anders. weish. Sal. 2, 15; trotz der prillen, die sie für anders ansicht. Fischart bienenk. 183a.heute sagen wir voll: ein anderes, andres, zum unterschied von dem stets gekürzten genitivischen anders.



"Ein ander Ding" is dated, may be dead, "Was anders ist gemeint?" - I know this, but it seems to be dated, too.

---
The genitive root is the following:



> ANDERS , gen. von ander, mhd. anders, in mehrfacher anwendung.
> 1) adv. aliter, auf andre weise: es verhält sich damit nicht
> 
> [Bd. 1, Sp. 312]
> 
> 
> so, sondern anders; ich will es anders ausdrücken; es lautet ganz, etwas anders; es soll anders werden; wie konnt es anders sein?; anders spricht man mit einem bekannten, anders mit einem fremden; aber sein herz dacht gar vil anders. 1Mos. 45, 26; nachdem man das haus anders beworfen hat.


edit (included a missing part):  (I shortened it, you can use the link to read the rest, it is rather long. It explains the usage of anders as adverb, with many examples. )

I think it is the etymology which helps to solve it.

"Anders" is already a genitive, (almost nobody knows this nowadays) - so it was already declined. Nominative was "ander" and is obsolete now.
I do not fully understand how it became an adverb. But it is indeed special.


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## elroy

Perseas said:


> If I am not mistaken, in "Dieses Buch ist anders", "anders" would be the answer to ("wie?") "how?".


 Same with "schön."


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## Hutschi

Exactly this is why I do not understand the German classification.

Grimm explained a lot about "anders" as adverb.

---
As far as I see:

We can test if a word works as adverb in a special sentence. Than we can test if it has flexion and "Steigerungsformen". If yes, it is an Adjective. If no, it is most probably an adverb. It may be in a list of exceptions. English grammar is here more logical.


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## elroy

Two more points:

I agree that adverbs can’t be used attributively (without morphological adaptation), but does this mean that any modifier that can’t be used attributively is an adverb?
“Wie” doesn’t always mean “how” (“Wie ist deine Telefonnummer?”; the phone number is clearly not an adverb. )


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> No, but how does that prove anything about "anders," which is not declinable


Of course not, I agree. I did not want to imply that it would. But excluding other cases in reverse direction might help sometimes.



elroy said:


> In 1 and 2, the relationship between the modifier and the noun is the same; both describe a quality of the book that applies generally. 3 is fundamentally different


I agree, case 3 is different. But does that say anything about "anders"?


elroy said:


> 4. Das Buch ist schön, spannend und anders.
> 5. Das Buch ist schön, spannend und hier.
> 
> I believe 4 works and flows well, whereas 5 is at least unidiomatic, if not downright wrong.


No, 5 is formally correct and in certain cases even idiomatic. I agree that it adds a rhetoric twist and the surprise of an enumeration member that breaks the symmetry, surprises the reader. However, similar sentences are not rare.



> _Das Buch ist toll. <Adverb, used predicatively: toll>_
> Are you saying _all_ predicative modifiers are adverbs??


Well, if an adjective is used adverbially in a predicative, then it functions as adverb. Of course there are other predicatives possible besides adverbs and adjectives (see Perseas' list).



elroy said:


> Kajjo is invoking a purely syntactic criterion ("if they cannot be used attributively, they are not adjectives")
> 
> I am invoking, or at least throwing out for consideration, a semantic criterion (semantically, predicative "anders" is like predicative "schön" but unlike predicative "hier").


Again, if used predicatively, adjectives are used adverbially. Do you agree? I do not oppose your suggestion, but I don't see a contradiction. There are different kinds of predicatives, so what?


elroy said:


> then the terms "adverb" in English and "Adverb" in German don't mean the same exact thing


Indeed. That is one of my problems in deciding when to use an adverb in English. *Predicatives in English are adjectives, not adverbs.* That drives me crazy. I reckon this is one of the main reasons why so many Germans have problems with English adverb decisions.


elroy said:


> Well, they usually _can_, with morphological adaptations.
> 
> Das Buch ist hier. > das hiesige Buch
> Das Buch ist dort. > das dortige Buch
> Das Buch ist besonders. > das besondere Buch


Hm, I would clearly say that this is a contradiction. You had to _change _the words to convert adverbs to adjectives with a similar meaning.



elroy said:


> The interesting thing about "anders" is that there's not even a morphological adaptation that it can undergo to allow it to be used attributively ("das andere Buch" has a different meaning).


_Das andersartige Buch._



elroy said:


> I agree that adverbs can’t be used attributively (without morphological adaptation), but does this mean that any modifier that can’t be used attributively is an adverb?


I am not sure, but I cannot think of any exceptions. Of course, we would have to count all particles as adverbs then.


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## bearded

Hutschi said:


> comparativ and superlative. Adverbs do not have them in German language.



Ich fahre _öfter _nach Berlin als nach Paris.


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## Hutschi

I see. It should be: _Adverbs seldom have comparatives and superlatives in German language._
I forgot that every rule has exceptions. Thank you for the hint, bearded. I changed this above.

So we have:
rosa - adjective, but no comparative and superlative
oft - adverb with comparativ, I am not sure about superlative: am öftesten. Is this in standard language?


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## berndf

elroy said:


> "Wie” doesn’t always mean “how” (“Wie ist deine Telefonnummer?”; the phone number is clearly not an adverb.


Yes it does. Both _wie_ and _how_ can be used as predictive adverb: _How is she?_

Before you complain that the comparison is misleading because _How is she?_ is short for _How is she doing?_, the German _Wie ist deine Telefonnummer? _it isn't much different. It is a simplification of _Wie lautet deine Telefonnummer?_


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## Kajjo

Die Gruppe der Adverbien ist einfach zu vielfältig, um zu versuchen, da eine Regel hineinzubringen. Viele Adverbien haben Steigerungsformen. Das hängt weit überwiegend einfach nur vom Inhalt ab, ob es Steigerungsformen gibt oder nicht.

Natürlich kann man "montags", "dort" oder "nie" nicht steigern, wohl aber "oft", "häufig", "selten". Manche Steigerungen verwenden andere Wörter:

_bald, eher, am ehesten
gern, lieber, am liebsten
oft, öfter, am häufigsten, _auch: _oft, öfter, am öftesten <selten>_

Adjektive, die als Adverbien verwendet werden, werden so gesteigert:

_schnell, schneller, am schnellsten <Adverbien>
der schnelle, schnellere, schnellste Läufer <Adjektiv>_

_gut, besser, am besten
wenig, weniger, am wenigsten_


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## elroy

berndf said:


> Both _wie_ and _how_ can be used as predictive adverb


 How does that prove that "wie" *always* means "how"?

In any case, my point is that we can't use "wie" questions to prove anything, because, as the telephone example shows, they can be used to elicit other parts of speech.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> In any case, my point is that we can't use "wie" questions to prove anything, because, as the telephone example shows, they can be used to elicit other parts of speech.


Then what? I don't understand your point.


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## elroy

Perseas said:


> Maybe another criterion is the way of asking. Adverbs answer the questions "How?", "When?", "Where?", "Why?", "In what way" etc. Whereas the adjective questions are "which?", "what kind?"...
> If I am not mistaken, in "Dieses Buch ist anders", "anders" would be the answer to ("wie?") "how?".


 I was addressing this.


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## berndf

I agree; that doesn't help: _Wie ist der Ball? Rot._


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## Perseas

elroy said:


> I was addressing this.


What would be a proper "Probefrage" about "anders" in this sentence: "Dieses Buch ist anders"?

Abgesehen von Ausnahmen ist jedoch zu beobachten, dass Frageproben mit "Wie?" als Klassifikationkriterien gelten, um zwischen Adjektiven und Adverbien zu unterscheiden. Andere Kriterien sind die Flektierbarkeit, die syntaktische Funktion ...


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## berndf

Perseas said:


> Andere Kriterien sind die Flektierbarkeit, die syntaktische Funktion ...


Adverbs and Adjectives have a good deal of semantic and also some functional overlap (predicative use). I think the main demarcation criterion between the word classes is that adjectives are declinable and adverbs aren't.


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## Perseas

berndf said:


> Adverbs and Adjectives have a good deal of semantic and also some functional overlap (predicative use).


Yes, I understand. I meant for example: _Der schnelle Mann kommt_ (schnelle = adjective). _Der Mann kommt schnell/sofort_ (schnell/sofort = adverbs)


berndf said:


> I think the main demarcation criterion between the word classes is that adjectives are declinable and adverbs aren't.


I agree.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> _Wie ist der Ball? Rot._


 Exactly.  As I said:


elroy said:


> Same with "schön."





Perseas said:


> Frageproben mit "Wie?" als Klassifikationkriterien gelten, um zwischen Adjektiven und Adverbien zu unterscheiden


 Eben nicht (siehe oben).


berndf said:


> I think the main demarcation criterion between the word classes is that adjectives are declinable and adverbs aren't.


 “Rosa” and “klasse” are indeclinable for phonological reasons - which could plausibly be the case for “anders” as well.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> “Rosa” and “klasse” are indeclinable for phonological reasons - which could plausibly be the case for “anders” as well.


That is a bit far fetched. One does not have to be educated in grammar theory to identity _anders_ and _ander-_ plus the adverbial suffix _-s_.


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## elroy

berndf said:


> plus the adverbial suffix _-s_


 So for you, it's just about morphology and syntax?  Semantics has no bearing whatsoever?


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## Perseas

Perhaps not all cases satisfy the criteria (some of them are mentioned above) of distinguishing an adverb from an adjective, but I think that such criteria work about the majority of the cases, isn't it true? Therefore, in principle you can rely on them.
Apart from that,  "Das ist anders" has its equivalent in Greek ("Αυτό είναι αλλιώς"). "αλλιώς" is an adverb with predicative use and I believe that it was easier for me to understand the analogy in German.


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## berndf

elroy said:


> So for you, it's just about morphology and syntax?  Semantics has no bearing whatsoever?


Very little. Since adjectives can be used adverbially without morphological markings, the semantic distinction between predicative adjectives and adverbs is largely unintuitive for Germans.


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## bearded

berndf said:


> the main demarcation criterion between the word classes is that adjectives are declinable and adverbs aren't.


There are 'borderline' cases, though. Take e.g. the adverb ''teilweise'': it can be changed to become an attributive adjective (or rather: be declined and remain an adverb all the same?) in a sentence  like_ Wir sind mit Ihrer teilweise*n* Lieferung nicht einverstanden._


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## berndf

Indeed, there are a few of those. Its use is restricted, though: _teilweise _as an attribute can only be used with (de-)verbal nouns (_teilweise Lieferung_ _teilweiser Stein_).


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