# Couples usually seek out women to use.



## Pinoro

Hallo, 

Können Sie bitte mein Satz korrigieren.

"Sie suchen normalerweise Frauen zu benutzen." Es ist im Sinn sexuell gemeint. Ist nutzen vielleicht besser?

Danke!


----------



## Kajjo

Wenn man "Menschen benutzt", dann nutz man sie aus. Man gaukelt ihnen meistens Freundschaft oder Kollegialität vor, aber will nur selbst einen Vorteil aus dem Kontakt ziehen. Das muss nicht unbedingt sexuell gemeint sein, es können auch Einkaufsvorteile, Beziehungen, Empfehlungen oder dergleichen sein.

"Eine Frau benutzen" kann aber auch sexuell interpretiert werden, also im Sinne von "Romantik vorspielen, um Sex zu bekommen".

"Eine Frau nutzen" ist NICHT möglich. So verwendet man das Wort nicht.

"Sie suchen" (they look for) ist wahrscheinlich falsch, es muss wohl "Sie versuchen" (they try to) heißen?


----------



## Pinoro

Danke! Ich meine sowas wie "Paare suchen meistens nach Frauen" (to use sexually), und nicht Männer.


----------



## Kajjo

Pinoro said:


> Ich meine sowas wie "Paare suchen meistens nach Frauen" (to use sexually), und nicht Männer.


In this sense? _When seeking a threesome, couples usually look for women._

Content-wise this is true, but everyone knows that. I don't think that a woman is "used" in that constellation. My understanding always was that women who agree to this sort of play have a bisexual tendency and enjoy the other woman.


----------



## Pinoro

One can consent to being used. You're still just a body in the equation. As my old roommate said, "I'm a sex toy." It's a certain mentality, and it's often far from healthy. We all have conditioning effecting our choices. Though I know such inner inquiry is unfashionable. 

Aber bitte sachlich und sprachlich bleiben! Bin hier um Deutsch zu lernen. Meine Deutschkurse beginnen diese Woche. Bin nervös.


----------



## Frank78

Pinoro said:


> Hallo,
> 
> Können Sie bitte mein Satz korrigieren.
> 
> "Sie suchen normalerweise Frauen zu benutzen." Es ist im Sinn sexuell gemeint. Ist nutzen vielleicht besser?
> 
> Danke!



Benutzen ist schon das richtige Wort. Im Deutschen muss allerdings das Personalpronomen nochmal genannt werden (_to_ use *them*)

"Sie suchen normalerweise Frauen, _um_ *sie* zu benutzen."
"Paare suchen meistens nach Frauen, _um_ *sie* zu benutzen"


----------



## Pinoro

Danke! Also, mit "Paare" brauchen wir "nach" (suchen). 
Gibt es ein subtiler Manier an das selbe zu deuten? Vielleicht: "Paare suchen meistens nach eine Frau als Zeug"?


----------



## elroy

@Pinoro, please give us the English sentence you are trying to translate.

Thank you!
elroy - moderator


----------



## Alemanita

Pinoro said:


> Danke! Also, mit "Paare" brauchen wir "nach" (suchen).



So absolut kann man das, glaube ich, nicht sagen.
Viele Paare suchen eine größere Wohnung, wenn sich Nachwuchs einstellt.

Für erotische Abenteuer würde vielleicht passen:
Wenn sie einen Dreier wollen, suchen Paare normalerweise nach einer Frau als Sexobjekt.


----------



## Pinoro

elroy said:


> @Pinoro, please give us the English sentence you are trying to translate.
> 
> Thank you!
> elroy - moderator



Something like:
"Couples usually seek out women to use." 

Alemanita, 

Das ist auch sehr hilfreich, danke!


----------



## elroy

I assume you’re talking about heterosexual (or lesbian) couples?  Gay male couples would not typically seek out a woman.

I find the use of “use” in English extremely odd and degrading.  Are you going for something neutral?  What is the broader context?


----------



## Alemanita

elroy said:


> I find the use of “use” in English extremely odd and degrading.


Deshalb habe ich ja Sexobjekt vorgeschlagen.
Wir sollten strikt beim Sprachlichen bleiben.


----------



## Kajjo

elroy said:


> I find the use of “use” in English extremely odd and degrading. Are you going for something neutral? What is the broader context?


The same is true in German with "benutzen". I still don't think that in either language "use" fits to a threesome.

At least in German we wouldn't typically use "benutzen" in this context. We might use "benutzen" if people trick women into doing things for love if there is actually no love involved on the user's part.

_Er will Frauen nur benutzen. Er macht ihnen schöne Augen, aber es geht ihm eigentlich nur um Sex._

Es muss nicht immer um Sex gehen, sondern im Mittelpunkt steht meist vorgetäuschte Liebe:

_Er hat sie nur benutzt! Er hat so getan, als ob er sie liebt, aber in Wirklichkeit wollte er nur an die Geschäftsgeheimnisse ihres Vaters kommen._


----------



## Pinoro

Okay, Elroy, I will try to explain why my answer is relevant. You said that women are not being "used" by people who seek out women purely for sexual purposes. I responded in German that men would be sought out to sexualize just as frequently if there were no sexism (implied by "using") involved. 
The original context was a woman saying (in German) that she and her boyfriend check out women's bodies together ("hot tits" etc.). I was the unpopular person who said the comment was sexually objectifying (contributing to women being valued only for their bodies.) I was told I'm wrong because the woman could easily have referred to men's bodies... that she might have been saying "hot tits" about a man. I wanted to respond (in German) that women are much more frequently the target.

And if you've been involved in any of the "sex positive" communities, (Polyamory, BDSM, Goth, Kink) you'll know that they're typically very "hetero-male gaze" oriented. I've heard many, many other women also say they've been pressured by both men and other women to be exhibitionist and perform bisexuality, to not be "vanilla" etc.


----------



## elroy

Pinoro said:


> You said that women are not being "used" by people who seek out women purely for sexual purposes.


 I didn't say that.  I said that "use" sounded degrading and should not be used if you were trying to be neutral.  As you've shown, you _weren't_ trying to be neutral, so that explains your use of "use."  

People engage in threesomes for all kinds of reasons, and it's not always the case that the third person (whether a man or a woman) is sought out "purely for sexual purposes." 

That's why context is so important!


----------



## Kajjo

Pinoro said:


> You said that women are not being "used" by people


I repeat my point of #13: In German we mostly use "er benutzt sie nur" in the sense of faked love used to get other things like money, sex, secrets whatever. Even if it sounds contrary, "benutzen" is not the verb of choice if you want to talk about objectifying, because most natives will think about pretended feelings, not usage as sextoy.

_Wenn ein Pärchen sich eine weitere Frau für einen flotten Dreier aussucht, dann wird sie oft einfach nur als Spielzeug angesehen.
Wenn die Frau dies merkt, kommt sie sich oft ausgenutzt vor._



Pinoro said:


> say they've been pressured by both men and other women to be exhibitionist and perform bisexuality, to not be "vanilla"


Well, if someone doesn't like a certain social environment or their beliefs or way of living, they should simply avoid it. If someone wants to be part of such an excessively sexual way of life, then that's the deal. Personally, I can understand any woman who doesn't want to pressured in doing things she doesn't really desire (as a man I don't want to pressured into anything either). Absolutely agreed. But I have little understanding for women socializing with such people and then complain about it. Usually you realize very early on that these people are not vanilla and don't like vanilla and don't want vanilla. 

This is not different from joining a loud, alcohol-abusive rocker gang with motorcycles. If you don't like loud, don't like motorcycles, don't like to drink, then don't join. Of course members are pressured into all these things. Boys who seek friends might fall for it. They simply shouldn't join and they wouldn't be pressured.

I get more and more the feeling that as soon as sex is involved many issues are not seen as straight-forward as they actually are. You don't like something, you shouldn't socialize. Easy as that. With or without sex.



Pinoro said:


> who said the comment was sexually objectifying (contributing to women being valued only for their bodies.)


I don't see this point. The essence of objectifying persons is seeing them as object to satisfy needs without the persons' needs being taken into account.

If two vanilla girls sit in a street cafe and talk about male passers-by and mention a "great jawline" or "defined muscles" or "great eyes" this is not objectifying, it is just pointing out bodily attributes and absolutely normal, allowed and natural. The same is true for boys to point of female curves, pretty face or great legs. We shouldn't turn entirely normal observations into sins. Watching people and building your own opinion is a natural first step in finding someone attractive. And yes, it is normal to talk about it.

It is objectifying if people actually want to select someone for sex and just go by the body and don't care for the person. But not because they point out bodily features, but because they actually want to only satisfy their own needs and really want to do the deed.


----------



## Hutschi

Frank78 said:


> Benutzen ist schon das richtige Wort. Im Deutschen muss allerdings das Personalpronomen nochmal genannt werden (_to_ use *them*)
> 
> "Sie suchen normalerweise Frauen, _um_ *sie* zu benutzen."
> "Paare suchen meistens nach Frauen, _um_ *sie* zu benutzen"


It is possible but has often a strongly negative connotation. If you need this connotation it is correct.
Especially it has usually a negative connotation to the reader.
It may depend on context.


----------



## Pinoro

Hutschi,

Danke, ja, in Englisch ist das Wort ein bissl mehr "casual" denke ich. Es konnte wie ein Scherz gemeint sein, wie "Use me, baby!" (klingt wie Austin Powers, aber jedoch!) Hmm, ich muss jetzt denken. Gute Information, höflich gegeben. Erfrischend. (Frank und Alemanita auch!)


----------



## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> It is possible but has often a strongly negative connotation. If you need this connotation it is correct.


But again, it is quite unlikely to phrase it that way.


----------



## Pinoro

Gibt es in Deutsch ein(er?) Satz wie "for their use"? Für Ihr Gebrauch?


----------



## Şafak

Pinoro said:


> Gibt es in Deutsch ein(er?) Satz einen Ausdruck wie "for their use"? Für Ihr Gebrauch?



Kannst du ein Beispiel auf Englisch anführen?


----------



## Pinoro

Danke für die Korrektur!
Einen Ausdruck wie:
"Couples are more likely to seek out a woman for their use."


----------



## Pinoro

Oder "[der] Korrektur"?


----------



## Kajjo

Pinoro said:


> Danke für die Korrektur!





Pinoro said:


> "Couples are more likely to seek out a woman for their use."


Again, the sentence sounds so degrading, it is difficult to translate without adding or removing offense.

_Pärchen sind eher an einer Frau interessiert.
Pärchen suchen im Allgemeinen eher eine weitere Frau.
Für einen flotten Dreier suchen die meisten Pärchen eher eine weitere Frau._


----------



## Pinoro

I just saw this comment from a bi woman. I've heard many like this:

"I consider myself a very sex-positive person, but I generally have found that when a couple is looking to bring in a third, the third person is usually being brought in as essentially a sex toy... There is definitely an imbalance between the couple and the third person being brought in, because I have found in my experience that the third person is not being brought in by the couple for their own pleasure on equal footing, but as a tool... The idea of having a threesome with a couple is just gross to me and brings up old feelings of being used and thrown away."


----------



## Kajjo

Pinoro said:


> is usually being brought in as essentially a sex toy


I think this is somehow true. "Real threesomes" take place between three people without relation. A fixed couple with a third one is imbalanced by nature, in many regards that is. However, the "use" part depends strongly on how the individual case. Many men are supposedly more attentive to the new woman and many coupled women would never consider accepting another woman.


----------

