# Derivation of nouns from verbs



## nine tails

Hello every one again 
I have some questions
1.In English we have V+ing=noun, except presentcontinuous,
Ex: *Increasing* of the world population
      lernen (verb) <=> Lernen (noun)
Are there any rules for German?

...


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## brian

In general it would be the infinitive form of the verb, as a neuter noun: _das Lernen_. Do you have a specific sentence in mind?


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## Wroclaw

You'll probably need to be a bit more specific, nine tails. Your title says "Derivation of nouns from adjectives"*** and your example cites the derivation of nouns from verbs (which brings up the -ung ending used so often in German to denote a process: töten = to kill, die Tötung = the killing). Have you something more precise in mind?

_*Moderator note: Thread title changed afterwards_


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## mannibreuckmann

Your example (verb=>noun):

"*Increasing* of the world population"

"das *Ansteigen* der Weltbevölkerung"

You simply take the infinitive and write it with a capital.


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## Derselbe

mannibreuckmann said:


> "das *Ansteigen* der Weltbevölkerung"



Sicherlich grammatisch aber würde nicht "der Anstieg" deutlich vorzuziehen sein. Es gibt halt sehr viele Arten ein Verb zu Substativieren im Deutschen. Mir fallen spontan drei ein: 
Infinitiv (immer das) , 
-ung (immder die), 
e- (immer die).

denken:
Das Denken
Die Denkung
Die Denke

schenken:
Das Schenken
Die Schenkung
Die Schenke

verarschen:
Das Verarschen
Die Verarschung
Die Verarsche

Bei manchen Verben gibt es darüber hinaus eben auch noch spezielle wie "der Anstieg". Bei manchen Verben verändern bestimmte Substativierungen  die Bedeutung drastische "die Schenke". Bei manchen Verben sind bestimmte Substantivierungen extrem ungebräuchlich "die Denkung".

EDIT:
Gerade noch eingefallen: die -erei Substantivierung:

Die Spielerei
Die Abzockerei
Die Malerei
Die Angeberei
Die Augenwischerei
Die Bauernfängerei


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## mannibreuckmann

Sicher, "der Anstieg" wäre eigentlich auch meine erste Wahl gewesen, wobei je nach Kontext auch "das Ansteigen" in die engere Wahl kommen könnte.

Es ging mir auch nur darum,

1. das Beispiel aufzugreifen und
2. die einfache Analogie zur "verb + ing" zu bestätigen.

Die Substantivierung von Verben nach dem Schema "Infinitiv groß geschrieben" ist immer möglich, aber natürlich gibt es oft inhaltlich und stilistisch bessere Alternativen.

Ich bin mir nicht sicher, aber viele Substantivierungen à la "die Denke" kommen mir umgangssprachlich vor.


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## Derselbe

mannibreuckmann said:


> Ich bin mir nicht sicher, aber viele Substantivierungen à la "die Denke" kommen mir umgangssprachlich vor.



Im Gegenteil, gerade "die Denke" ist ein Wort, das doch niemand in der Umgangssprache benutzt, sondern vermehrt in irgendwelchen Soziologenkreisen auftaucht. Die e- Substantivierung hat tendenziell eher eine negative Konnotation, wenn auch nicht zwingend. Deshalb wird sie eher gebraucht um etwas abfällig zu machen. Auf jeden Fall halte ich sie nicht für umgangssprachlich, aber wegen ihres oft negativen Beigeschmacks in den meisten Situationen einfach für unangebracht.

Bei mir an der Uni hat ein Germanistikprofessor zum Beispiel von der "professionellen Mentalitätenverstehe" gesprochen um sich über diese ganzen "interkulturelle Kompetenz" Workshops lustig zu machen.


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## mannibreuckmann

Derselbe said:


> Im Gegenteil, gerade "die Denke" ist ein Wort, das doch niemand in der Umgangssprache benutzt, sondern vermehrt in irgendwelchen Soziologenkreisen auftaucht.



Dann meinte ich eben die Umgangssprache der Soziologen. 

Schriftlich würde von denen wohl niemand von "Denke" sprechen.


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## berndf

nine tails said:


> 1.In English we have V+ing=noun, except presentcontinuous


In English there are two forms:
stem+_ing_=Noun - called _gerund_.
stem+_ing_=adjective - called _present participle_.
These are morphologically identical but syntactically distinct forms.
 
In German these two forms exist as well:
stem+_ung_=Noun (a verbal noun without a no special name)
stem+_end_=adjective (present participle)
 
Contrary to English, the _-ung_ verbal noun form is not productive, i.e. it cannot be applied to just any noun.
 
German has three productive verbal noun forms:
- The *infinitive* used as a neuter noun to describe the *action as such*, as Brian explained.
- The *present participle*, _-end-_declension, used as a noun denoting the *agent* of the action described by the verb.
- The *past participle* (different forms) used as a noun denoting the *patient* of the action described by the verb.


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## Derselbe

berndf said:


> German has three productive verbal noun forms:
> - The *infinitive* used as a neuter noun to describe the *action as such*, as Brian explained.
> - The *present participle*, _-end-_declension, used as a noun denoting the *agent* of the action described by the verb.
> - The *past participle* (different forms) used as a noun denoting the *patient* of the action described by the verb.



What do you mean by productive? I don't really understand what you want to say. Can you give some examples?


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## nine tails

brian8733 said:


> In general it would be the infinitive form of the verb, as a neuter noun: _das Lernen_. Do you have a specific sentence in mind?



I read in a book. It said :"Ich bin am Lesen", so it make me remember V+ing=noun (I learned it in a lesson). I think that there are some rules of derivation of nouns from verbs.
I hope you can understand what i mean now.



Wroclaw said:


> You'll probably need to be a bit more specific, nine tails. Your title says "Derivation of nouns from adjectives"*** and your example cites the derivation of nouns from verbs (which brings up the -ung ending used so often in German to denote a process: töten = to kill, die Tötung = the killing). Have you something more precise in mind?



I had a mistake that I asked 2 questions in 1 thread, so a moderator changed, but he changed a little wrong, but now the title is right.




Derselbe said:


> Sicherlich grammatisch aber würde nicht "der Anstieg" deutlich vorzuziehen sein. Es gibt halt sehr viele Arten ein Verb zu Substativieren im Deutschen. Mir fallen spontan drei ein:
> ....



So gibt es irgende Regele oder muss man auswendig lernen?


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## mannibreuckmann

nine tails said:


> I read in a book. It said :"Ich bin am Lesen", so it make me remember V+ing=noun (I learned it in a lesson).



You are right. 

"Ich bin am Lesen" is equivalent to "I am reading".

Unfortunately, this logical construction is colloquial only and must not be used in formal speech - at least up to now.


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## berndf

Derselbe said:


> What do you mean by productive? I don't really understand what you want to say. Can you give some examples?


A form is called "productive" if it can be used to create new words. I.e. if you invent a new (transitive) verb, say "glapfen"* than the verbal nouns "das Glapfen", "der/die/das Glapfende", "der/die/das Geglapfte" are implicitly defined: "the act of _glapf_ing", "the one who_ glapf_s", "the one who is _glapf_ed".

This is different with the _-ung _form. For some verbs a derived _-ung _noun exists, for some not:
Umleiten - Umleitung
Essen - Essung
Speisen - Speisung
Küssen - Küssung
-----
_*Note for non-native speakers: this verb doesn't exist. I made it up for this explanation._


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## Derselbe

nine tails said:


> So gibt es irgende Regele oder muss man auswendig lernen?



Ich befürchte es gibt keine richtigen. Die Infinitivsubstantivierung funktionert immer einigermaßen. Aber es wird halt oft nicht sehr ansprechend. Aber du lernst ja ohnehin Vokabeln. Da sind ja oft Substantive dabei, die die gleiche Bedeutung haben wie ein substantiviertes Verb. Wenn wir ein solches Substantiv haben, brauchen wir eigentlich keine Substantivierung mehr.

Statt "Ich freue mich sehr über dein Verstehen." sagen wir eben "Ich freue mich sehr über dein Verständnis.". 
Aber abgesehen von den Infinitivsubstantivierungen lernt man alle solchen Wörter wie "Verständnis", "Spielerei", "Auferstehung" etc. ohnehin als Vokabel. Es ist also mehr eine Frage des Umfangs deines Wortschatzes als eine Frage von Substantivierungsregeln.


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## Derselbe

berndf said:


> This is different with the _-ung _form. For some verbs a derived _-ung _noun exists, for some not:



This might be a question of principal but: Why does the fact that a word has not been used so far make it wrong to create it as long as it is constucted along the general rules of German language. In principal you can create a word "Grumpfung" (if the word "grumpfen" existed). 

Of course the word "Küssung" is not very common. But to say that "Küssung" must be wrong because of that is like saying that the word "Pflaumenknoten" is wrong. (In fact Pflaumenknoten has less google hits than "Küssung")

_
PS: "Der Protestant machte die Fuß-__Küssung, der Katholik nicht; der Papst wurde dadurch veranlaßt den Protestanten für katholisch und den Katholiken für protestantisch zu halten." 

Aus:
Bemerkungen über die Begebenheiten mit dem Erzbischofe zu Köln 
Droste Vischering
Veröffentlicht 1838_


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## nine tails

Soderivation of nouns from verb in Germany:
-Infinitiv (almost all); -ung and -e (in many cases)
Ex: denken <=> das Denken / die Denkung / die Denke
verarschen <=> das Verarschen / die Verarschung / die Verarschung
-Exception: unknown
Any idea?
Thank every one again


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## Derselbe

nine tails said:


> Soderivation of nouns from verb in Germany:
> -Infinitiv (almost all); -ung and -e (in many cases)
> Ex: denken <=> das Denken / die Denkung / die Denke
> verarschen <=> das Verarschen / die Verarschung / die Verarschung
> -Exception: unknown
> Any idea?
> Thank every one again



What is a _soderivation_? What kind of idea are you asking for?


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## brian

It's a typo: _So(,) derivation..._


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## Derselbe

I blame today's sun for being a little dense 

Anyway, I don't know what you're still puzzling over. Do you want me to translate post #14 into English or was it understandable?


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## nine tails

Derselbe said:


> I blame today's sun for being a little dense
> 
> Anyway, I don't know what you're still puzzling over. Do you want me to translate post #14 into English or was it understandable?



No, thanks. I can understand what you said
At my last post, I asked "any idea", because I want to make sure that the summary is correct, I know it's not really perfect one.

PS: I'm a vietnamese and an 8th-class student, I live in Switzerland 2 year ago, I'm improving Germany now. My english is not perfect, but at least I can understand what all of you say. So when you don't understand what I say clearly, tell me. I'll try to explain what I want to say or ask


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## Derselbe

nine tails said:


> No, thanks. I can understand what you said
> At my last post, I asked "any idea", because I want to make sure that the summary is correct, I know it's not really perfect one.
> 
> PS: I'm a vietnamese and an 8th-class student, I live in Switzerland 2 year ago, I'm improving Germany now. My english is not perfect, but at least I can understand what all of you say. So when you don't understand what i say clearly, tell me. I'll try to explain what i want to say or ask



As long as you can understand everything there are no problems whatsoever. You're welcome with any question regarding German language here. If we don't understand what you're asking for at first sight, we'll find a way to figure it out. No worries. Maybe just one thing: I'd sure be happy, if you were improving *Germany*, but unfortunately I think you are rather improving your *German* language skills. 
No "y" here 

Okay here's my summary:

There are at least five ways of nominalization in German language:
1) infinitive
2) -e
3) -ung
4) -erei
5) -nis  (some verbs are inflected in this category)
Some verbs also have special nouns not constructed along these criteria. (e.g. der Anstieg, die Zunahme)

All the frequently used forms (except for the infinitive-nominalization) are considered as independent nouns and therefore listed in dictionaries. So in order to find out which form to use you need to consult a dictionary.

There is uncertainty as to whether all those five categories listed above can be used with any German verb. Although I disagree with bernd regarding the correctness of constructions like "die Küssung", he definitely is right in that that some of those forms are rarely or almost never used. So it's not advisable to create your own nominalizations. The best thing to do is to just look them up in a dictionary. You shouln't use forms you've never heard before.

As I said before. It's more a question of vocabulary than grammar.


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## sokol

Well, your summary (unfortunately) can only work as a very imprecise rule of thumb.

Not only are some derivations with "-ung" highly unusual (like the mentioned one, "Küssung": as has been shown it *is *possible to use this one, but it is still a highly unusual form and not to be recommanded except for advanced learners); many times it is *much *better *not *to choose a substantivised infinitive or a noun derived from a verb.

For example, "Denkung" is extremely unusual (if possible at all - I am not sure of that, I'd say it's not), and "Denke" is common in some contexts as shown above but foreign in Austrian German (plus Swiss German I'd say), and according to Duden "Denke" is "salopp" = colloquial, "almost" slang, thus not suitable for general use.
Here it would be much better if you use another noun if you need one for thought processes, like "Denkart" (which is a compound noun: verb "denk-" plus noun "Art").

True, such rules of thumb are helpful for learners, but you always should keep in mind that they can be wrong for some cases, or may lead to stylistically bad language.


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## Sidjanga

mannibreuckmann said:


> (...) "*Increasing* of the world population"
> 
> "das *Ansteigen* der Weltbevölkerung" (...)


Although you do read and hear that rather often, I would suggest

_die *Zunahme *der Weltbevölkerung_ (derived from _zunehmen_)

here.

(_die Bevölkerungs*zahl* steigt an; die Bevölkerung nimmt zu_).


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## nine tails

As Derselbe said that this is a question for vocabulary, so it's hard to find the solution. But sometimes we must guess. For example: when we have a test and mustn't use any dictionary. It may lead to stylistically bad language. It's right. Now we need some luck.
However, I thank for all your helps.


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## Hutschi

nine tails said:


> Ex: denken <=> das Denken / die Denkung / die Denke
> verarschen <=> das Verarschen / die Verarschung / die Verarschung
> Thank every one again



I think you mean:
verarschen <=> das Verarschen / die Verarschung / die Verarsch*e
*
In some forms there are exceptions in the usage, especially if a verb has homonyms.

das Wachsen - the waxing = to add wax, die Wachsung, ("die Wachse" does not exist in this case. It is blocked somehow, may be because of "die Wachse"= plural of "das Wachs", but die Wichse = Schuhcreme (with change of vowal and it means the material) exists.

Here is an additional form "das Gewachste" - the thing which is waxed. Here the gender depends on the gender of the thing. The thing itself is omitted from the Phrase.

Compare this:
Henken, das Henken, (die Henkung - not used or very seldom), (die Henke - not used or very seldom), der Gehenkte/die Gehenkte (person executed by hanging).
This method is productive until now (the method of word building of course.  )

compare
das Wachsen (becoming greater), die Wachsung (not used or extremely seldom), die Wachse (I did not hear this, but it could exist.) - another derived word is: der Wuchs (the growth)

Here there is an additional form: "das Gewachsene" - the thing which is grown

I do not know if the last method (with changing the vowel) is productive, and I do not know whether the verb or the noun form was the first in this case.

In some cases the derived word has a new meaning, you cannot derive directly from the word:

Example: schenken, das Schenken, das Geschenkte, der Beschenkte, die Schenkung, but: die Schenke = tavern, and the new spelling "die Schänke" is possible, too, if you derive it from "Ausschank" rather than from "schenken".

There are some idiomatic forms:

Fliegen: "Mach mal die Fliege/'ne Fliege!" (= verschwinde!, "Go out of here!"), slang, coll.
but:
die Fliege=the fly (musca domestica).



> 1) infinitive
> 2) -e
> 3) -ung
> 4) -erei
> 5) -nis  (some verbs are inflected in this category)


6) -te
7) change of vowel, sometimes in combination with other forms
8) ge/be- ... -e (das Gewordene, das Gehandelte, das Behandelte)
9) -er rasieren - der Rasierer 
10) -ar   (often for words derived from French or Latin) - der Jubilar

I suppose, the list is not complete yet


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## Derselbe

sokol said:


> Well, your summary (unfortunately) can only work as a very imprecise rule of thumb.
> 
> Not only are some derivations with "-ung" highly unusual (like the mentioned one, "Küssung": as has been shown it *is *possible to use this one, but it is still a highly unusual form and not to be recommanded except for advanced learners); many times it is *much *better *not *to choose a substantivised infinitive or a noun derived from a verb.



Thats exactly what I wrote, isn't it?


> "Although I disagree with bernd regarding the correctness of constructions like "die Küssung", he definitely is right in that that some of those forms are rarely or almost never used. So it's not advisable to create your own nominalizations. The best thing to do is to just look them up in a dictionary. You shouln't use forms you've never heard before."


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## Hutschi

> "So it's not advisable to create your own nominalizations. The best thing to do is to just look them up in a dictionary. You shouln't use forms you've never heard before."


This is important not only because of resulting words are rare or not used. (This could confuse the partner or make him smile.)
It is especially important too, because there may be changes of meaning. (This may cause misunderstandings.)


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## berndf

sokol said:


> For example, "Denkung" is extremely unusual (if possible at all - I am not sure of that, I'd say it's not).


In current German probably not. But as the example with "Küssung" shows these things change over time. The frozen expression "Denkungsart" suggests that "Denkung" must have existed some time in the past.



Derselbe said:


> There is uncertainty as to whether all those five categories listed above can be used with any German verb. Although I disagree with bernd regarding the correctness of constructions like "die Küssung", he definitely is right in that that some of those forms are rarely or almost never used. So it's not advisable to create your own nominalizations. The best thing to do is to just look them up in a dictionary. You shouln't use forms you've never heard before.


Another important difference between productive forms like the English gerund and the German _-ung_ form is that the meaning is not always predicable. E.g. "Richtung" means "direction" and not the act of "directing".


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## sokol

Derselbe said:


> Thats exactly what I wrote, isn't it?


I'm sorry, my post unfortunately is located below your post but was referring to the summary of nine tails above: we cross-posted, I saw your post after I submitted mine but didn't edit - I thought it was clear that I referred to nine tails' post. 

So yes, of course, the same put in other words.


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