# to each his own



## Classic_Fizz

Hello Everybody.
I've been studying German for only a couple years now, so I need some help translating a phrase.

I need to know how to translate "To Each His Own" in to German.
The context I need, is something along the lines of "don't pass judgement" or "everyone has the right to be theirself".

I have found "Jedem das Seine" so far.
I have also learned that this phrase (Jedem das Seine) was associated with the Holocaust and used on gates entering camps.

If "Jedem das Seine" is correct, would it be viewed negatively because of the link to the Holocaust or not?

If someone can supply a better translation, or even a better phrase, that would be wonderful.

Danke!


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## Doppelrahmstufe

In my opinion is "Jedem das Seine" a common phrase.
The first thing in my mind would not be the link to the Holocaust.
(I am also not sure if this context is widespread common knowledge)


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## Brioche

Classic_Fizz said:


> Hello Everybody.
> I've been studying German for only a couple years now, so I need some help translating a phrase.
> 
> I need to know how to translate "To Each His Own" in to German.
> The context I need, is something along the lines of "don't pass judgement" or "everyone has the right to be theirself".
> 
> I have found "Jedem das Seine" so far.
> I have also learned that this phrase (Jedem das Seine) was associated with the Holocaust and used on gates entering camps.
> 
> If "Jedem das Seine" is correct, would it be viewed negatively because of the link to the Holocaust or not?
> 
> If someone can supply a better translation, or even a better phrase, that would be wonderful.
> 
> Danke!



*Arbeit macht frei* was used at Auschwitz and 5 other Nazi camps. It's the well-known phrase.

*Jedem das Seine* was _on the inside of_ the gates of Buchenwald. 

On the outside of Buchenwald the motto was "Recht oder Unrecht - Mein Vaterland!"
This is adapted from the toast of Commodore Stephen Dacatur, a US Naval Officer. _Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong”_


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## starrynightrhone

Doppelrahmstufe said:


> In my opinion is "Jedem das Seine" a common phrase.
> The first thing in my mind would not be the link to the Holocaust.


 

I agree with Doppelrahmstufe. 
The German translation of "to each his own" is "Jedem das Seine" and I wouldn't associate it with the Holocaust either. I can't see any negative connotations without further reference to the Holocaust.


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## Kajjo

"Jedem das Seine" ist idiomatisch korrekt und wird im allgemeinen nicht mit der Nazi-Vergangenheit in Zusammenhang gebracht. 

Kajjo


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## Classic_Fizz

Thank you all very much!
This helped a lot!
I just have one more question on the phrase.
I'm assuming it is correct for the "S" to be uppercase in "Seine"?
Thanks again!


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## starrynightrhone

Classic_Fizz said:


> I'm assuming it is correct for the "S" to be uppercase in "Seine"?


 

Correct Classic_Fizz


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## Acrolect

And...

Jeder das Ihre (natürlich auch)! *an honest, not an ironic*

(Definitely no Nazi associations here)


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## Classic_Fizz

Ah, Thank you all so much!
I appreciate it!


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## I.C.

Classic_Fizz said:


> I need to know how to translate "To Each His Own" in to German.
> The context I need, is something along the lines of "don't pass judgement" or "everyone has the right to be theirself".
> 
> I have found "Jedem das Seine" so far.


I'm not saying you can't use it, but in my opinion “Jedem das Seine” can have meanings pretty much expressing the opposite of what you wrote you are seeking. See here: http://www.redensarten-index.de/suche.php?suchbegriff=Jedem+das+seine&bool=relevanz&suchspalte%5B%5D=rart_ou Myself I only use this phrase disapprovingly. 
There also is "Richtet nicht, auf daß ihr nicht gerichtet werdet." I doubt using it implies the speaker is religious. I am not, yet still make use of it without hesitation. Regarding freedom of religion there is "Jeder soll nach seiner Façon selig werden." (adaptation of  something Friedrich II wrote, I think; maybe not the best choice).

Spezieller, eher auf Geschmacksurteile oder individuelle Vorlieben bezogen, weniger auf Weltanschauungen:
Jedem Tierchen sein Pläsierchen. (Aus meiner Sicht umgangssprachlich.)
Wat dem een sin Uhl is dem annern sin Nachtigall. (Plattdeutsch, but fairly well known, though probably not everywhere. One  man’s owl is another man’s nightingale.)


> If "Jedem das Seine" is correct, would it be viewed negatively because of the link to the Holocaust


Doubt it. I myself do not make that connection.

Addition: There also is "Jeder Jeck ist anders". From the deep West, I would think. I still get it. Colloquial.


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## Hutschi

Hello, may be it is because I'm from the east of Germany and I visited Buchenwald. "Jedem das Seine!" is strongly connected to the holocaust for me. Even more: "Arbeit macht frei!" (in other KZs)  I never ever can see it neutral after this cynical usage.

When I see it in a caricature or in a text, I feel it as a kind of hint to this, even if it isn't. I have in my mind the picture of the ovens in Buchenwald.

I hope this helps.

May be it is a relict of the "iron wall" in my head. But I just cannot see this phrase out of the holocaust context. (The English form does not have this connotation to me.)

Best regards
Bernd


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## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> Hello, may be it is because I'm from the east of Germany and I visited Buchenwald. "Jedem das Seine!" is strongly connected to the holocaust for me. Even more: "Arbeit macht frei!" I never ever can see it neutral after this cynical usage.


"Arbeit macht frei!" ist eindeutig verbunden mit KZ, während "Jedem das Seine" einfach ein ganz normaler, uralter Spruch ist. Ich kann durchaus verstehen, daß dieser Spruch für Dich persönlich stark mit Deinen Eindrücken von Buchenwald verbunden ist, aber ich glaube nicht, daß die Mehrheit der Deutschen auch nur ansatzweise an diesen Kontext daran denkt.

Ich finde, man kann "Jedem das Seine!" heutzutage ohne jeden Hintergedanken verwenden.

Kajjo


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## Hutschi

Wir sprechen nicht über die Mehrheit, sondern ob man empfehlen kann, den Spruch zu verwenden.

Hier nur ein Zitat, auf das I.C. in #*10* weiter oben verwies:



> Die Nationalsozialisten ließen den Spruch in das Eingangstor des Konzentrationslagers Buchenwald einschmieden und verhöhnten damit noch ihre Opfer - hier wurden zwischen 1937 und 1945 56.000 Menschen ermordet. Deshalb gilt bis heute die Verwendung des Spruches teilweise als problematisch. Er wurde allerdings auch schon als Werbespruch eingesetzt ...


 
Natürlich sinkt das Wissen um diese Geschichte im Versuch des Vergessens und Verdrängens. Ich stelle hier nur meine persönliche Meinung dar und kann mich irren, aber neutral ist es nicht mehr. Man verwendet die Wendung bewusst, nachdem man das weiß - oder eben bewusst nicht.

Kajjo schrieb: 





> ... ich glaube nicht, daß die Mehrheit der Deutschen auch nur ansatzweise an diesen Kontext daran denkt.


Das sehe ich gerade auch mit als Problem, dass der Mehrheit der Deutschen das egal ist.


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## Aurin

I didn´t know either that is it written in Buchenwald. Now that I know it I won´t continue using it. Reading the link of I.C. and what Hutschi said it´s enough for me to avoid it because now I know that it could be misunderstood.
Also the swastica is a very old symbol with a very nice original meaning (what still remains in India), but no German would use it because of Hitler´s misusage.


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## Kajjo

Falls die folgende Wikipedia-Aussage korrekt ist, sieht es zumindest die offizielle Seite als nicht kritikwürdiges Sprichwort an:



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> *Suum cuique* (lat., Jedem das Seine) ist eine klassische Definition der Gerechtigkeit. Sie ist heute unter anderem das Motto der Feldjägertruppe der Deutschen Bundeswehr.



Kajjo


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## Aurin

*11.400* Treffer für *"Jedem das Seine" Buchenwald* sollten uns vielleicht doch zu denken geben.


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## I.C.

Aurin said:


> *11.400* Treffer für *"Jedem das Seine" Buchenwald* sollten uns vielleicht doch zu denken geben.


I’m not sure whether such numbers are the best basis for judgement there is. Google also gives estimates of 525 000 hits for “Jedem das Seine” on its own, 1 520 000 hits for “Buchenwald”, 282 000 for “Buchenwald” and “KZ”, 1420 for "Jedem das Seine" and "KZ Buchenwald", then 125 000 hits for the combination of “Hitler” and “Schokolade”.


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## Voxy

Hutschi said:


> Wir sprechen nicht über die Mehrheit, sondern ob man empfehlen kann, den Spruch zu verwenden.
> 
> ...


Es ist in erster Linie ein Spruch - nicht der beste aber auch nicht der
schlechteste - und als solchen kann man ihn getrost empfehlen. 
Wie ich meine, gerade Deutschlernenden.


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## Kajjo

Voxy said:


> Es ist in erster Linie ein Spruch - nicht der beste aber auch nicht der
> schlechteste - und als solchen kann man ihn getrost empfehlen.
> Wie ich meine, gerade Deutschlernenden.


Ja, genau! Und ich glaube, daß die Entscheidung auch längst schon gefallen ist, denn meiner Erfahrung nach verwenden sehr viele Personen diesen Spruch regelmäßig ohne jeden Hintergedanken. Die Wendung ist idiomatisch und durch kaum eine andere, prägnante Phrase zu ersetzen. Zudem tritt sie in vielen Sprachen in sehr ähnlicher Form auf.

Kajjo


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## Classic_Fizz

Wow, it seems there are some mixed feelings on the subject.
My intention is to get the phrase as a tattoo and I wanted to clarify because I dont want to offend anyone or have nazi affiliations forever on my body.
The meaning is extremely important to me, however, my brother beat me to the English version.
And I have always wanted a piece in German and I thought that this would be perfect.

But is it generally agreed that the translation is correct, or no?

Thanks again for all your help.
It's helping me a ton!


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## Hutschi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suum_cuique (Englisch)
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedem_das_Seine (Russisch)

Both English and Russian mention the KZ. So you may be sure, the connotation is international.

May be, this helps you to decide about the German phrase. I never would put the German phrase on my body. 

I am not sure whether the Latin phrase is exactly the same. But in Geman, the translation showed its real meaning in life.

Brecht said:
"Das Gedächtnis der Menschheit für erduldete Leiden 
ist erstaunlich kurz.
...
Die weltweiten Schrecken scheinen vergessen.
Der Regen von gestern macht uns nicht naß, sagen viele.
..."

(rough translation)
"Mankind doesn't remember long about suffering.
...
The horrors in the world seem to have been forgotten.
Many say: the rain of yesterday does not make us wet."

I would not carry "Jedem das Seine" on my body.


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## gaer

Let me just add that in English, "to each his own" is often or perhaps usually used a bit sarcastically, as if to say:

"It's a free world, and other people are free to do as they please, but *I* wouldn't do that!" 

Nothing to say about the German "jedem das Seine". After what I've read, I would be aware that it has possible negative meanings for some people, I think.

Gaer


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## Hutschi

By the way: A very good translation in German is "Jedem, was er verdient" or "Jedem, wie er's verdient". 
It is also sarcastical and has negative meaning, but is not connected to the KZ.


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## gaer

Hutschi said:


> By the way: A very good translation in German is "Jedem, was er verdient" or "Jedem, wie er's verdient".
> It is also sarcastical and has negative meaning, but is not connected to the KZ.


I disagree. As I just told you, "to each his own" is most often used to mean "Let each person do as he pleases. It's not business of mine."
From your English Wiki link:

"Jedem das Seine" is a German translation of an old Greek principle of justice which translates literally into English as "To each his own," but with the idiomatic meaning of _*"To each according to his merits."*_

The literal translation, in English, is misleading. We do not usually use it this way. We shrug our shoulders, when we think that we would never do something that someone else does but have no right to say it's wrong and say: "Well, to each his own."

AGAIN, what I'm saying has nothing to do with "jedem das Seine". I'll let those of you who speak German decide for yourselves whether or not it is to be avoided "across-the board", but I will tell you this. After reading the comments in this thread, I would definitely NOT use it for a tattoo!!! 

Gaer


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## Voxy

Classic_Fizz said:


> Wow, it seems there are some mixed feelings on the subject.
> My intention is to get the phrase as a tattoo and I wanted to clarify because I dont want to offend anyone or have nazi affiliations forever on my body.
> The meaning is extremely important to me, however, my brother beat me to the English version.
> And I have always wanted a piece in German and I thought that this would be perfect.
> 
> But is it generally agreed that the translation is correct, or no?
> 
> Thanks again for all your help.
> It's helping me a ton!


I'd mull over one more time. A tattoo is like to coin it into(?) the skin.
Choose carefully.


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## Acrolect

I think you should not have _Jedem das Seine_ as a tattoo being aware of the background (perhaps also considering the additional connotations of German in an English-language context). Besides, the saying has two interpretations, the one you are aiming for ('everybody should be allowed to do as they please without being judged') and the (sarcastic) one concerned with justice/karma ('you'll get what you deserve').

I am actually shocked that historical background of _Arbeit macht frei_ has stayed in collective memory, while _Jedem das Seine_ has been forgotten. *



			Suum cuique
		
Click to expand...

*


> (lat., Jedem das Seine) ist eine klassische Definition der Gerechtigkeit. Sie ist heute unter anderem das Motto der Feldjägertruppe der Deutschen Bundeswehr.


Wow, forgetting is really a powerful force - how can a German military organization be so insensitive or forgetful to use a saying from a KZ entry gate as their motto?

I have to admit that I only learned about the historical background of _Jedem das Seine _through this thread. I have not used the saying actively, but now that I know I will not be able to see it as neutral if I encounter it again.


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## Kajjo

gaer said:


> Let me just add that in English, "to each his own" is often or perhaps usually used a bit sarcastically, as if to say:
> 
> "It's a free world, and other people are free to do as they please, but *I* wouldn't do that!"
> 
> Nothing to say about the German "jedem das Seine". After what I've read, I would be aware that it has possible negative meanings for some people, I think.
> 
> Gaer


Interestingly, your description of the English meaning fits exactly to my understanding of the German phrase, too.

Kajjo


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## Kajjo

Acrolect said:


> I am actually shocked that historical background of _Arbeit macht frei_ has stayed in collective memory, while _Jedem das Seine_ has been forgotten.


I'm not. _Jedem das Seine_ is a very old phrase, was used by kings, governments and groups since thousands of years. The association to the Hitler regime is only due to one KZ, only a short time and without interruption of the usage in other countries. In contrast, _Arbeit macht frei_ is extremely cynical, part of the inhumane propaganda, almost solely used publicly by the Hitler regime and typical for several KZ. These are drastic differences between the two phrases.

Wir können und sollten uns nicht immer mehr und mehr Wörter, Phrasen und Abkürzungen verbieten lassen, nur weil sie mit dem Dritten Reich in Verbindung gebracht werden _könnten_. Denkverbote und Einschränkungen waren gerade Markenzeichen der Nationalsozialisten und ein wesentliches Mittel, Angst und Schrecken zu verbreiten und Widerstand zu unterdrücken. Freiheit des Denkens sowie die Abwesenheit von Tabus und Denkverboten sind meines Erachtens der einzige sinnvolle Weg in eine vernunftorientierte Zukunft, die nationalsozialistisches Gedankengut nicht ablehnt, weil es verboten und strafbewehrt ist, sondern aus dem Erkennen heraus, wie gestört und verbrecherisch das Regime und seine Ideologie wirklich war.

Bei einem harmlosen Spruch wie _Jedem das Seine_ habe ich bisher nie an das KZ gedacht, obwohl ich den Sachverhalt kannte. Bei entsprechender boshafter Verwendung wäre er mir dagegen bestimmt sofort aufgefallen -- das ist da, was wir hier Kontext nennen!

Kajjo


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## Hutschi

> "It's a free world, and other people are free to do as they please, but *I* wouldn't do that!"


My understanding of the German phrase does not include this meaning, if there is no additional context. For me, the German "jedem das Seine" means _everybody should get (the things or the treatment) supposed as being proper to him._ Für mich heißt "Jedem das Seine": "Jeder soll die Behandlung und die Dinge erhalten, die ihm zustehen."
The decision is made by others what is what he or she has to get. Die anderen legen fest, was das ist. 

This way "to each his own" and "jedem das Seine" are false friends.

"It's a free world, and other people are free to do as they please, but *I* wouldn't do that!" würde ich folgendermaßen verstehen: _Wir sind eine freie Welt._ _Soll doch jeder tun und lassen können, was er will, aber *das* würde ich nicht tun._


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## Kajjo

Classic_Fizz said:


> My intention is to get the phrase as a tattoo and I wanted to clarify because I dont want to offend anyone or have nazi affiliations forever on my body.


I took side for the liberal usage of this phrase. However, when used as tattoo, the Nazi connotation might be very obvious, because neonazi groups use a lot of tattoos in Germany.

I strongly recommend not to use this phrase as tattoo.

Kajjo


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## I.C.

gaer said:


> Let me just add that in English, "to each his own" is often or perhaps usually used a bit sarcastically, as if to say:
> 
> "It's a free world, and other people are free to do as they please, but *I* wouldn't do that!"
> 
> Nothing to say about the German "jedem das Seine".


I’d say “jedem das Seine” can more or less mean "you do as you please, that's none of my business, but I think you're an idiot". That is part of what I was alluding to. Deliberately choosing a rather harshly worded version here. 
An additional meaning may be “to each his own, well-deserved lot". 

In my opinion, used in colloquial speech "jedem das Seine" more often than not is not meant nicely. A common usage is that someone explicitly disagrees with someone else’s choices and then finishes with “aber jedem das Seine”. This does indicate judgement, is a seemingly tolerant or indifferent statement, but conveys a negative assessment. 

I’d say there also can be a fatalistic component to "jedem das Seine", along the lines of "against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.". Die Welt ist ein Narrenschiff. I use it that way.

I think it can (but doesn't quite have to) express “You're a fool to live as you do, but hey, it's your miserable life, you chose your fate. May you be unhappy with it. It'd probably be well deserved. You live your life, I live mine, each for ourselves, in mental (and if possible maybe also physical) segregation.".

Probably wouldn't use it for a tattoo. 
It may come across as arrogant and cold, and some people, possibly including folks not everyone may care to make friends with, might wonder whether it's crypto-fascist.


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## Arrius

Particularly for a tatoo, one would have to be very careful in one's choice, as tatooing is very popular, as you must know, among right-wing Skinheads.
By the way, nobody seems to have mentioned _Kraft durch Freude_, an evocative and even more absurd slogan of the time, which is also scrupulously to be avoided. In addition, mein lieber *Classic Fizz*, it would be advisable to avoid Fraktur, erroneously called Gothic print by anglophones, which also has unpleasant associations with the same period, at least when seen adorning the body.


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## Kajjo

Arrius said:


> By the way, nobody seems to have mentioned _Kraft durch Freude_, an evocative and even more absurd slogan of the time, which is also scrupulously to be avoided.


Well, this phrase is not offensive, as it was not applied to any minorities. The project aimed at sparetimes activities for the German people. Certainly, this project was used as part of the propaganda of the Hitler regime, but is does not have any specific bad connotations with it. The phrase is only avoided because it was so dominantly used during the _Dritte Reich. _I do not see why you call the slogan _absurd_, because beside the historical ideological abuse, the slogan in itself is not that wrong: Joy and recreation contribute to work power and motivation. Many modern companies use similar incentive programms.


> In addition, mein lieber Classic Fizz, it would be advisable to avoid Fraktur, erroneously called Gothic print by anglophones, which also has unpleasant associations with the same period, at least when seen adorning the body.


This is a reasonable and healthy advice.

Kajjo


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## Hutschi

It may be funny to know in this context, that the Nazis themselves forbade (banned) the "Fraktur" in the year 1944 as "Jewish letters". But almost nobody knows this. It is a very old writing form for example used by the reformation humanists to show the distance to the Rom church. (The Roman church used antiqua type faces.)
The Luther bible was printed traditionally in Fraktur. Fraktur was used in a lot of countries and became an essential type face of the periods.

I definitely would avoid these letters in tatoos, but not in general.


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## Arrius

No government can fail to do some good things: under Hitler, Germany acquired increased employment, the Autobahn, a small Volkswagen for the worker, and was encouraged to eat sensibly, take exercise through das"Wandern" and see the homeland, staying cheaply at the new Jugendherbergen. No complaints there. But the Kraft durch Freude movement has associations with fascist eugenics and was aimed at perfecting the Aryan body and making it beautiful mainly to prepare it for hardship and sacrifice on the altar of nationalism. The people who organised it were fanatical party members and the _Kraft_ which they undeniably imparted to the youth of Germany brought far more misery than _Freude_ to the country. In that way it was absurd.


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## Aurin

Kajjo said:


> Falls die folgende Wikipedia-Aussage korrekt ist, sieht es zumindest die offizielle Seite als nicht kritikwürdiges Sprichwort an:
> 
> 
> 
> Kajjo


 
Das muss ich dir widersprechen:
"Pervertiert gebraucht wurde die deutsche Übersetzung „Jedem das Seine“ als von innen zu lesendes Motto am Eingangstor des nationalsozialistischen Konzentrationslagers Buchenwald."
Wikipedia


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## Kajjo

Aurin said:


> Das muss ich dir widersprechen:
> "Pervertiert gebraucht wurde die deutsche Übersetzung „Jedem das Seine“ als von innen zu lesendes Motto am Eingangstor des nationalsozialistischen Konzentrationslagers Buchenwald."
> Wikipedia


Ja, ich habe auch den ganzen Artikel gelesen. Mit "offizieller Seite" meinte ich keinesweg Wikipedia (die ist ja eher anarchisch aufgebaut), sondern die Bundesrepublik Deutschland und alle ihre Verfassungsorgane, die es ganz offensichtlich als unbedenkliches Motto für die polizeilichen Einheiten der Bundeswehr erachten. Damit halten Einrichtungen, die sonst eher als Reichsbedenkenträger eingestuft werden, diesen Spruch für unbelastet.

Wo genau möchtest Du mir widersprechen?

Kajjo


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## Aurin

Kajjo said:


> Ja, ich habe auch den ganzen Artikel gelesen. Mit "offizieller Seite" meinte ich keinesweg Wikipedia (die ist ja eher anarchisch aufgebaut), sondern die Bundesrepublik Deutschland und alle ihre Verfassungsorgane, die es ganz offensichtlich als unbedenkliches Motto für die polizeilichen Einheiten der Bundeswehr erachten. Damit halten Einrichtungen, die sonst eher als Reichsbedenkenträger eingestuft werden, diesen Spruch für unbelastet.
> 
> Wo genau möchtest Du mir widersprechen?
> 
> Kajjo


 
Na gut, dann widerspreche ich dir nicht.  Ich hatte deinen Beitrag nämlich tatsächlich so verstanden, als sehe die offizielle Wikipediaseite den Spruch als unbedenklich und nahm auch an, dass das deine Meinung widerspiegelt.


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## Hutschi

Heute früh war der Anfangssatz noch missverständlich in der Wikipedia. Ich habe eine Änderung veranlasst. Es ist klar die lateinische Form bei den Feldjägern in Gebrauch. Wie akkurat die deutsche Übersetzung ist, weiß ich nicht.


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## Classic_Fizz

Well, I think I'm going to avoid using the phrase as part of my tattoo.
I just liked the idea because not everybody would know what it meant, well at least in America. I know some people would, but I planned on putting in somewhere you can't see without me showing you (when dressed normally). It just made it sort of personal for me.
But I do that you all a lot, because obviously it may be not be viewed like I intended. I was mainly worried about the Nazi part of it, but now I realize some people use it in a different context as well.
But thank you all VERY much.
You may have saved me from regret!
Thanks so much.


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## gaer

I.C. said:


> I’d say “jedem das Seine” can more or less mean "you do as you please, that's none of my business, but I think you're an idiot". That is part of what I was alluding to. Deliberately choosing a rather harshly worded version here.
> An additional meaning may be “to each his own, well-deserved lot".


That seems very similar to what I'm familiar with in English. I would say that "to each his own" can be used rather mildly, but then it means that the person who is saying it really doesn't care what someone else does (or other people do). As you go on to mention, there is definitly something negative to it.

We would certainly not say such a thing about something we approve of. At least that's my opinion. 

Gaer


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## Donny Jepp

Kajjo said:


> I'm not. _Jedem das Seine_ is a very old phrase, was used by kings, governments and groups since thousands of years. The association to the Hitler regime is only due to one KZ, only a short time and without interruption of the usage in other countries. In contrast, _Arbeit macht frei_ is extremely cynical, part of the inhumane propaganda, almost solely used publicly by the Hitler regime and typical for several KZ. These are drastic differences between the two phrases.



There's this other phrase that has been used in one or the other form for quite some time before the third Reich. Its association to the Hitler regime is only due to one paramilitary formation, only a short time and without interruption of the usage in other countries. Already know what I'm hinting at? The conjunction of _Ehre _(honour) and _Treue _(allegiance), two century-old motives blended in the motto of the SS, "Unsere Ehre heißt Treue." What I'm saying is that your example is not well chosen and that your argument as such is flawed in this respect.



Kajjo said:


> Wir können und sollten uns nicht immer mehr und mehr Wörter, Phrasen und Abkürzungen verbieten lassen, nur weil sie mit dem Dritten Reich in Verbindung gebracht werden _könnten_.



The subjunctive here is cynical. "Arbeit macht frei." or "Unsere Ehre heißt Treue." *are *tightly linked to this historical period. On top of that, it *is *at least shady to chose a concentration camp motto to be tattooed on one's skin. Tattooing itself *was *a major issue during the third Reich, especially in the context of concentration camps: both Jews and SS guards were tattooed. This issue is not as straight forward or as black and white as you're trying to present it.



Kajjo said:


> Bei einem harmlosen Spruch wie _Jedem das Seine_ habe ich bisher nie an das KZ gedacht, obwohl ich den Sachverhalt kannte. Bei entsprechender boshafter Verwendung wäre er mir dagegen bestimmt sofort aufgefallen -- das ist da, was wir hier Kontext nennen!



Subjective categorization is hardly ever entirely unproblematic.



Apart from that I feel that your above-mentioned "Freiheit des Denkens" claim is indeed appropriate for many areas. Resistance - as you called it - or plain divergent opinions - as I would call it here - are good things that are not to be quashed by the powerful. In this spirit: Have a nice day, senior member.

donny jepp
junior member


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## Arrius

Welcome to the forum *Donny Jepp*. My word, what a first article! 
I'm all for free speech and, as an Englishman, used to think that having a lunatic fringe (rightist and leftist) in the country saying what the hell they liked in public was a proud symptom of British liberty. Alas, it is becoming increasingly dangerous to fully enjoy this luxury these days.
Germany and Austria with their sad, traumatic past have, unfortunately, far more reason to be circumspect about what is said in public.


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## I.C.

Donny Jepp said:


> there's this other phrase that has been used in one or the other form for quite some time before the third reich. its association to the hitler regime is only due to one paramilitary formation, only a short time and without interruption of the usage in other countries. already know what i'm hinting at? the conjunction of _Ehre _(honour) and _Treue _(allegiance), two century-old motives blended in the motto of the SS, "Unsere Ehre heißt Treue."


“Meine Ehre heißt Treue“ I actually consider to be a pretty bad motto already in itself. It praises Kadavergehorsam or Nibelungentreue as the highest virtue. 

[According to Höhne (Der Orden unter dem Totenkopf, p.135) Himmler tried to model the SS after the Jesuits, tried to copy their organisational structure, and citing Reitlinger (Die SS, p.64) Höhne writes Hitler called Himmler “meinen Ignatius von Loyola”.]

I’m not a fan of “Jedem das Seine” as a motto, anyway, and I would advise against incorporating it in a tattoo, in particular, but I really don’t think _as a figure of speech_ it is tightly linked to National Socialism. It was not a prominent motto and the connection is not imbedded in the psyche of the collective. To now retrospectively form such a link to me would seem counterproductive. 


> On top of that, it *is *at least shady to chose a concentration camp motto to be tattooed on one's skin. tatooing itself *was *a major issue during the third reich, especially in the context of concentration camps: both jews and SS guards were tatooed. this issue is not as straight forward or as black and white as you're trying to present it.


You did read Kajjo’s post #30?


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## Jana337

Donny Jepp said:


> The subjunctive here is cynical. "Arbeit macht frei." or "Unsere Ehre heißt Treue." *are *tightly linked to this historical period. On top of that, it *is *at least shady to chose a concentration camp motto to be tattooed on one's skin. Tattooing itself *was *a major issue during the third Reich, especially in the context of concentration camps: both Jews and SS guards were tattooed. This issue is not as straight forward or as black and white as you're trying to present it.


Build a straw man, knock it down. Congrats.  Two minutes after submitting the message you quote, Kajjo posted yet another:


> I took side for the liberal usage of this phrase. However, when used as tattoo, the Nazi connotation might be very obvious, because neonazi groups use a lot of tattoos in Germany.
> 
> I strongly recommend not to use this phrase as tattoo.


I too find it difficult to be aware of sinister connotations of a word/phrase and yet to use it neutrally. It's just the way you built your argument that strikes me as a bit unfair.


> (...)
> Resistance - as you called it - or plain divergent opinions - as I would call it here - are good things that are not to be quashed by the powerful. In this spirit: Have a nice day, senior member.
> 
> donny jepp
> junior member


Hm... In this forum, we are in the habit of judging contributions at face value. A senior member who would use the junior status of an opponent as a weapon would incur the wrath of the community, and rightly so. If a junior resorts to the same strategy, he/she will probably raise a few eyebrows. Mine included.

Anyway, welcome.


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## Kajjo

Dear I.C. and Jana, thanks for defending my position during my absence. 



Donny Jepp said:


> The subjunctive here is cynical. "Arbeit macht frei." or "Unsere Ehre heißt Treue." *are *tightly linked to this historical period.


Welcome to our Forum, Donny Jepp!

Please note that my sentence you quote was directly commenting the phrase "Jedem das Seine" and not in connection with the two phrases you quote. I hope this mix-up was accidental.

Jana and I.C. already cleared up the issue about tattooing. Please, Donny Jepp, read threads completely and carefully. We are a language forum, so don't expect that shallow attempts of playing and twisting words would not _easily _be detected by us _senior members_ as you so emphasised. 



> This issue is not as straight forward or as black and white as you're trying to present it.


Not at all. I am known to present issues in a well-balanced manner and I would never think that the German history might be simple or black-and-white. In this case I presented _one side_ of the medal, because the other side was more than adequately taken care of by several other honored members. Having read all of my contributions in this thread you will easily recognise that I took a reasonable approach of defending the phrase but recommending not to use it as tattoo.


> Have a nice day, senior member.


Thanks, I surely will do.

Kajjo


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## Donny Jepp

Thanks for the _hello _and _welcome _and for the messages I received. And thanks for explaining possible reasons for raised eyebrows.

Still, I don't quite feel that anyone responded to my criticism.

@ Jana: I was talking of tatooed Jews and members of the SS. You replied this with a quoting one of Kajjo's other postings. This posting, however, mentioned neonazis in Germany and is only so some extent related to my Jews/SS claim that referred to the 1940s. I was merely talking about the historic fact that Jews and members of the SS had tatooed numbers during WW II (for administration... as inhumanely horrible this may sound). You are quoting a posting talking presumably of slogans/symbols/abbreviations as used by neonazis today. Albeit these two aspects may be thematically closely related, your quote doesn't meet my example.

@ Kajjo: You seem not to have answered the key point of my criticism: I doubt you may say that one phrase is less problematic than another. If I read your postings correctly, this is what you were trying to do, i.e. to claim that "Jedem das Seine." is relatively (!) unproblematic compared to "Arbeit macht frei." I think this relativization is not valid. Take, for example, any line of the so-called Horst Wessel Lied. Virtually noone today knows its lyrics. And virtually nobody would deem e.g. the sentence _die Knechtschaft dauert nur noch kurze Zeit_ as problematic. Taking your original line of argumentation, one might claim that the "overcoming slavery"-theme is an old theme, has been used by various people in various contexts etc. You may now say (as you did) that this "overcoming slavery"-image may or may not be seen as part of this historical era we're talking about, or is related to it to a lesser extent. But indeed it does - whether you and I agree upon that or not - reflect a substantial part of a socio-political mindset we - and in this respect I know we agree - would not event want to bring to a revival by language use. And that's the key point - this line I quoted above as an example is problematic as soon as it may accentuate any facet of _Deutschtum _(I am deliberately not using the pejorative_ -tümelei_!).

(I do hope that it's clear that I do not claim that one mustn't use the terms _Knechtschaft _or _Treue _at all...)


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## Acrolect

I.C. said:


> It was not a prominent motto and the connection is not imbedded in the psyche of the collective. To now retrospectively form such a link to me would seem counterproductive.


 
The only reason I did not associate _Jedem das Seine_ with the Nazi-era is that I had not known (shame on me, but this also raises some question about our collective knowledge of history and our historical education, but this is another matter). Now that I know, my mind cannot help forming this link. It might not have been as prominent a motto as _Arbeit macht frei_, but its extremely cynical use on a gate to a camp where tens of thousands were exploited and killed raises it beyond the status of a minor linguistic incident.

This does not mean that I want to ban the phrase or that I will automatically attribute Right-wing political ideas to those who use it. But I for my part will not be able to use it (which I haven't done anyway) or perceive it as neutral.

I am not sure what you mean by _retrospectively_? Assocations are always formed a posteriori, and I hope that with the benefit of newly gained knowledge we will critically review what we used to consider unproblematic.

And I am not sure what you mean by _counterproductive_? I cannot really see the downside of raising our collective awareness of history and the history of certain phrases, in particular if this concerns the darkest era of German and Austrian history. Whatever the consequences for our language use, I think this is the opposite of thought policing.


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## Kajjo

Donny Jepp said:


> @ Kajjo: You seem not to have answered the key point of my criticism


That is right. We were more concerned with your style and assumptions than with you criticising us.



> I doubt you may say that one phrase is less problematic than another.


And I accept your position, but I have the opposite opinion. Personally, I believe that a phrase with such ubiquitious words like "Jedem das Seine", even without real nouns, which exists in numerous translations since many centuries cannot be compared with a typical Nazi propaganda slogan used in KZ in an extremely cynical way like "Arbeit macht frei". Further, I know that very many people use the phrase "Jedem das seine" in the discussed meanings -- most of those surely without making the connection. Thus, it can be rightly assumed that this phrase does not belong to those of the "forbidden words". Since we discuss language but do not create own or new rules, it is clear to me, that I should not deny other to use this phrase as well. 

Please note that we are not a political forum. 

Kajjo


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## gaer

This was so difficult to read, I'm not sure I would have understood more in English. I'm not a philsopher, lawyer or serious historian, but much of the information seemed interesting to me.

Click here:

This, nearly at the end, piqued my interest:

"Der Mißbrauch eines Schlagwortes hebt dessen künftige Brauchbarkeit nicht auf; eher umgekehrt, denn eine unbrauchbare Formel kann gar nicht mißbraucht werden. Freilich setzt der weitere Gebrauch eines inzwischen mißbrauchten Schlagwortes eine Sensibilität voraus, die man zumindest von denjenigen wird erwarten dürfen, deren Beruf im Umgang mit Worten und deren Bedeutung besteht."

My interpretation is that even the more or less "classical" use of "Jedem das Seine!" in the sense of "_Suum cuique!_" has an incredibly complicated and ambiguous past.

In addition, the meaning, informally, of "It's a free world, do what you want _even if it is completely crazy and only a fool would do it_" (which matches the "to each his own usage") is really something quite separate.

Regardless, I think we are all completely in agreement that using "Jedem das Seine!" as a tattoo is not something that anyone who does not sympathize with Neo-Nazi progaganda would ever want to do, right?

Gaer


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## Arrius

I suppose that two equivalents in other languages would be *chacun à son goût *(French, but also the title of a song in _Die Lustige Witwe,_ and *de gustibus non est disputandum*, both of which seem always to have been completely harmless.


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## Kajjo

Thanks for the link, Gaer!



gaer said:


> "Der Mißbrauch eines Schlagwortes hebt dessen künftige Brauchbarkeit nicht auf";


Damit drückt der Autor doch ziemlich deutlich aus, daß diese Wendung nicht für immer blockiert sein sollte.



> Freilich setzt der weitere Gebrauch eines inzwischen mißbrauchten Schlagwortes eine Sensibilität voraus, die man zumindest von denjenigen wird erwarten dürfen, deren Beruf im Umgang mit Worten und deren Bedeutung besteht."


Auch hier sind wir uns doch einig: Je besser man die Sprache beherrscht und je intensiver man sie nutzt, desto mehr Sensibilität kann man erwarten. Hier bedeutet aber Sensibilität nicht, das Wort pauschal nicht mehr zu verwenden, sondern eventuelle Mißverständnisse im voraus zu erkennen und zu vermeiden.



> Regardless, I think we are all completely in agreement that using "Jedem das Seine!" as a tattoo is not something that anyone who does not sympathize with Neo-Nazi progaganda would ever want to do, right?


Luckily, we are all in agreement here. 

Kajjo


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## I.C.

> its extremely cynical use on a gate to a camp where tens of thousands were exploited and killed raises it beyond the status of a minor linguistic incident.


How about “Allahu akbar” then?


> I am not sure what you mean by retrospectively? Assocations are always formed a posteriori, and I hope that with the benefit of newly gained knowledge we will critically review what we used to consider unproblematic.


“Retrospectively” was meant to signal that we would not  base our assessment on current use, but form a close connection based on an assessment of the past from a current point of view.
Consider a term that may not have started out as a slur, but which would be perceived or intended as one now. If it were, I’d advise against using it today no matter how innocent past associations may have been and etymological root may be, but such an assessment of current use I would not consider to be based on retrospection.


> And I am not sure what you mean by counterproductive? I cannot really see the downside of raising our collective awareness of history and the history of certain phrases, in particular if this concerns the darkest era of German and Austrian history.


I guess you cannot see the downside of your approach. 
Still nice of you to insinuate that if I don't agree with your point of view, I am working against an awareness of history.


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## cuibono

If you're looking for something less controversial, why not opt for verschiedene Leute, verschiedene Geschmäke.  Which basically boils down to "different strokes for different 'Volks'" (If you'll pardon the pun).

 Perhaps not quite on the same register as Jedem das Seine, but nonetheless appropriate -and much less likely to raise any hackles.


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## iaf

gaer said:


> ... As I just told you, "to each his own" is most often used to mean "Let each person do as he pleases. It's not business of mine."
> ...
> "Jedem das Seine" is a German translation of an old Greek principle of justice which translates literally into English as "To each his own," but with the idiomatic meaning of _*"To each according to his merits."*_



First of all, hello!

 I think Gear has explained very clearly the differences in meaning between the german and english version of this phrase (more than one time, as I read).

So the german "Jedem das Seine" has not only a negative connotation due to the Nazi period, but it might also be another sense that Classic_Fizz is looking for.

If the tatoo is meant to express something like _"let each do as he pleases"_, I suggest:

_*"Jeder wie er will" - "Jeder wie er mag" - "Jeder wie es ihm passt"*_

(In my opinion, the first one is more colloquial)

Greetings, iaf.


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## Acrolect

I.C. said:


> Still nice of you to insinuate that if I don't agree with your point of view, I am working against an awareness of history.


 
Point taken. I am sorry that the wording of my post has conveyed the impression that this is what I was insinuating. I did not mean my contribution to imply that. I was only concerned about the term _counterproductive_ in your otherwise sensible argumentation. Contrary to appearances, I can accept a well taken point, even if I do not agree.



> _*"Jeder wie er will" - "Jeder wie er mag" - "Jeder wie es ihm passt"*_


 
Good suggestions!
I nevertheless had to smile thinking about an intimate situation in which a partner detects these sentences as tatoos on her/his lover's body.


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## Kumpel

I.C. said:


> Addition: There also is "Jeder Jeck ist anders". From the deep West, I would think. I still get it. Colloquial.



Das Wort _jeck_...


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## Hutschi

The main question was: Is "jedem das Seine" considered as positive or negative?

I consider it very negative. But nor everyone does so. 
You can got to the Wikipedia and you will find that especially military thinks it as positive.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedem_das_Seine

Historically it developed from a law of human rights to a cynicism. I cannot see it as neutral.


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## Frank78

Hutschi said:


> The main question was: Is "jedem das Seine" considered as positive or negative?



It depends on the context for sure. If you want to avoid the negative connotation you're better with the Latin phrase "suum cuique".

The question is should we prohibit yourselves from using it only because this fine Roman maxim was misused in the most shameful way.


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## vacoda

just throwing in my two cents here...

"Jedem das Seine." is a perfect translation and I would have never associated it with the Nazis. I didn't even know there was a connection. I'm pretty sure only a very few people would be able to link it to Buchenwald.
I cannot think of way it would offend people since this is an absolut common phrase in contemporary German.


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## Cpt.Eureka

vacoda said:


> I didn't even know there was a connection.



I'm totally with you. And besides, why do we (the Germans) let the Nazis steal so many words and phrases? I'm really sick of it. With this justification (perverted by Nazis) we also could repeal the Mother's Day,


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## Hutschi

Be sure I were offended if you say it to me.

We forget and start to forget as society.

Brecht said: „Die weltweiten Schrecken der vierziger Jahre  scheinen vergessen. Der Regen     von gestern macht uns heute nicht naß, sagen viele. Diese  Abgestumpftheit ist es, die wir     zu bekämpfen haben, ihr äußerster Grad ist der Tod.“

You just confirmed that kind of forgetting of the society. 
So we can make war not love again.

If you tell me "jedem das Seine" I understand that you mean it is ok to kill people.
So take care to learn the connotations.


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## Sowka

Hutschi, I feel the same as you: I would not be able to use these words, and I shrink back whenever I read or hear them.

But feeling less vulnerable toward these very words does absolutely not mean being less aware of the atrocity of the Nazi deeds (and everything that Brecht says in the quote). These words - though for me associated with Buchenwald - are not a central feature of the Nazi regime.

In general, I think Frank78 is right: This maxime is a quite progressive maxime, dating from the Romans. Anybody can take this maxime as it is - in its "Roman", original spirit.


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## gaer

Just to put this in perspective:


Classic_Fizz said:


> Wow, it seems there are some mixed feelings on the subject.
> My intention is to get the phrase as a tattoo and I wanted to clarify because I dont want to offend anyone or have nazi affiliations forever on my body.
> The meaning is extremely important to me, however, my brother beat me to the English version.
> And I have always wanted a piece in German and I thought that this would be perfect.


Even those who were most liberal about using the talked about German phrase all agreed that it would definitely NOT be OK for a tatoo.

For me the bottom line is this: although I hate tatoos, if I wanted one, I would have no problems having "to each his own" put on in ink. 

Although "Nur jedem das Seine!" (BWV 163) is a Bach Cantata, I would say that anyone who would not use a phrase as a tatoo today, who knows that it was once on the inside of a concentration camp gate, should think twice about defending it as neutral just because about 65 years have passed.

And by the way, I'm the last person on the planet who is going to bash Germany in 2010 after the craziness that has gone on in the US over the last 10 years...


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## Hutschi

Sowka said:


> ..ö
> 
> But feeling less vulnerable toward these very words does absolutely not mean being less aware of the atrocity of the Nazi deeds (and everything that Brecht says in the quote).
> ...



I agree, as long as somebody does not know the connection. 
The words include a kind of "you get what you deserve", anyway. It is ideology. I wouldn't use it as tatoo.


By the way: The letters in Buchenwald were designed by Bauhaus architect  Franz Ehrlich, who was imprisoned there until 1943. He designed them in a style which was a protest, because it was considered as "Entartete Kunst" (Degenerate art) by the nazis but they didn't take notice of this in this case.  http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/KZ_Buchenwald


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