# squarely, roundly



## ThomasK

In  English one can tell someone the truth "squarely" and "roundly" - firmly, directly -, though not only in truth contexts, I suppose. In Dutch we can tell someone the truth "vierkant" [square, lit. 4-side] (iemand vierkant de waarheid), maybe "ronduit" [round-out], but that does not hurt as much.

Do you recognize this variation in your language? And if so, could you explain how these antonyms have come to be used as near-synonyms?


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## jazyk

In Portuguese we have _estar redondamente enganado_, "to be roundly mistaken", but I don't think we have something with _truth_ like that.


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## ThomasK

Well, you could perhaps say that a mistake is somehow "un-true", but I think these round/ square words don't Always refer to truth as such. What they might imply is that they speak out very clearly, so somehow that they state the plain truth. Don't you think?


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## Dymn

In Spanish there's _rotundamente, _a learned word from Latin _rotundus _"round" which means something along the lines of "forthright, total, firmly". It is not limited to "truth contexts". E.g:

_Esto es rotundamente falso. _"This is totally false"
_Tengo la rotunda convicción de que el capitalismo va a caer. _"I have the firm conviction that capitalism is going to fall."

The popular word for "round" is _redondo.
_
In Catalan there's also _rotundament _with the same meaning, the popular word for "round" being _rodó _(or _redó _in València).

I can't think with anything related to "square".


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## jazyk

_Rotundamente falso_ is also possible in Portuguese.


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## apmoy70

Greek:

*«Αλήθεια»①* [aˈliθi.a] (fem.) --> _truth_ is *«ωμή»②* [oˈmi] (fem.) --> _raw, unrefined, uncooked_ metaph. _harsh, rough_. 
*«Λογική»* [loʝiˈci] (fem.) --> _logic_ is *«τετράγωνη»③* [teˈtɾaɣoni] (fem.) --> _square_.
Telling the truth while trying to avoid hurting someone's feelings is *«στρογγυλεύω»④* [stroɲɟiˈlevo] --> _to make round, hedge._

*①*Classical fem. noun *«ἀληθεία» ălētʰe̯íā* and *«ἀληθείη» ălētʰe̯íē* --> _truth_, lit. _that which cannot be concealed or forgotten_ < compound; Classical privative prefix *«ἀ-» a-* (PIE *a(n)- < *n̥- _privative prefix_, in Greek we have the vocalisation of the nasal *n̥-) +Classical deverbal fem. noun *«λήθη» lḗtʰē* --> _forgetfulness_ < Classical v. *«λανθάνω» lăntʰánō* & *«λήθω» lḗtʰō* --> _to escape notice, be unknown, unnoted_ (PIE *leh₂- _to remain unnoticed, hidden_ cf Skt. लयते (layate), _to go_, Lat. latēre, _to be concealed, hidden_).

*②*Classical nominal *«ὠμός, -μή, -μόν» ōmós* (masc.), *ōmḗ* (fem.), *ōmón* (neut.) --> _raw, uncooked, crude_, metaph. _savage, fierce, cruel_ (PIE *HeHmo- _raw_ cf Skt. आम (āmá), _raw_, Arm. հում (hum), _raw, crude_).

*③*Classical nominal *«τετράγωνος, -νος, -νον» tĕtrắgōnŏs* (masc. & fem.), *tĕtrắgōnŏn* (neut.) < compound; combinatory *«τετρα-» tĕtră-* of numeral *«τέσσαρες» téssarĕs* --> _four_ (PIE *kʷetu̯er- _four_) + Classical fem. noun *«γωνία» gōníā* --> _angle, corner_ (generally connected to PIE *ǵenu-/*ǵonu- _knee_ cf Gr. γόνυ (gónŭ), _knee_, Hitt. genu (idem), Skt. जानु (jānu), _knee_, Av. zānu (idem), Lat. genū, _knee_).

*④*Classical nominal *«στρογγύλος, - λη, -λον» strŏngúlŏs* (masc.), *strŏngúlē* (fem.), *strŏngúlŏn* (neut.) --> _round, spherical, curved_, (of expressions) _wellrounded, compact, terse_ (with obscure etymology; in view of the whole complex and the suffix «-υλ-» it might well be Pre-Greek).


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## cyberpedant

ThomasK said:


> In  English one can tell someone the truth "squarely" and "roundly"


I'm afraid I've never heard these collocations. Can you give us a few examples?


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## ThomasK

Here you are:
- Trump’s Orlando terror speech *roundly* mocked by conservatives on …
- His family surprisingly placed the blame *squarely* on the state of Israel.

I think in both cases people are stating their "truth" *in a firm way*. Don't you think?


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> In Dutch we can tell someone the truth "vierkant" [square, lit. 4-side] (iemand vierkant de waarheid), maybe *"ronduit" [round-out]*, but that does not hurt as much.


German _*rundheraus*_ can mean something like 'bluntly'. I haven't found anything about the etymology of that expression, there must be some kind of a semantic link which would explain the parallels in other languages such as Spanish...


Diamant7 said:


> In Spanish there's _rotundamente, _a learned word from Latin _rotundus _"round" which means something along the lines of "forthright, total, firmly".



Interesting to see how much it differs from the Greek expression - _rundheraus_ seems to be almost the precise opposite:


apmoy70 said:


> Telling the truth while trying to avoid hurting someone's feelings is *«στρογγυλεύω»④* [stroɲɟiˈlevo] --> _to make round, hedge._


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## ThomasK

Indeed, with _round_ one expects softness or something of the kind, or at least indirectness (to beat around the bush), but _round_ might refer to completeness perhaps. IN Dutch the _uit_ seems the most important element, but _rond_ strenghthen is, or so I think... 

But indeed no statements can be _viereckig_ in German. _Eckig_ would not work either, would it? _*Hoekig*_ might be something like blunt, I'd say.


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> but _round_ might refer to completeness perhaps


Maybe that would explain the link with bluntness; telling the 'whole truth', without holding anything back... 


ThomasK said:


> _Eckig_ would not work either, would it?


Right now, I can't think of _eckig_ being used in this context. A person can be characterized as _kantig_, another adjective with a similar meaning (the antonym being _sanft, weich_, 'soft').


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## ThomasK

Holger2014 said:


> Right now, I can't think of _eckig_ being used in this context. A person can be characterized as _kantig_, another adjective with a similar meaning (the antonym being _sanft, weich_, 'soft').


I was afraid so. Just trying... ;-) I just found _hochkantig_, which I did not know, but which might perhaps be translated as _square_. What do you think? - I suppose _kantig_ implies corners (if you have 4 sides, you need four corners, I guess).


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## 810senior

In Japanese, in a figurative way, square(kakubatta) would mean strict, stiff, rigid and round(marui) peaceful, amiable, respectively e.g. _kakubatta iikata_(a stuffy speech) and _marui ningenkankei_(amiable relationships). I can't imagine it when a person tells the truth _roundly _or _squarely _in the Japanese-adapted way since both of them sound quite unnatural.


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## ThomasK

Our interpretation would be the same: stiff vs. amiable, indeed. Yet, we can use "ronduit" in a fairly strong sense, but as I said, we associate roundness also with totality, completeness: _iets afronden_ means to put an end to it (a meeting, lit. 'to round off'). Could you see that connotation somewhere?


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## 810senior

I believe some phrases related to _roundness _may imply the completeness, as in Dutch:
_marugoto_(in whole, completely; lit. with the round) - _maru_(round) + _goto_(whole)
_marukkiri_(totally, lit. roundly) - _maru_(round) + _(k)kiri_(affix making a word adverb)
_marumeru_(to talk into lit. to round off) e.g. _takumi-ni marumete, mikata-ni hikizurikomu_(to talk into him slickly and bring him to my friends)


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## ThomasK

Great, thanks. If I may ask, in what kind of sentences would you use the first two? Like in 'All in all, I am quite satisfied'?


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## 810senior

ThomasK said:


> Great, thanks. If I may ask, in what kind of sentences would you use the first two? Like in 'All in all, I am quite satisfied'?


Sure.

Some examples:
Marugoto: スイカを*丸ごと*食べる_Suika-o *marugoto *taberu_(I eat a watermelon whole)
Marukkiri(used in negative sentence): 運動は*まるっきり*駄目なんだ_Undou-wa *marukkiri *damenanda_(As for sports, I'm totally useless) or *まるっきり*使えないやつだな*Marukkiri *tsukaenai yatsudana(Bet you're a completely good-for-nothing!)


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## ThomasK

Now I quite understand! So both as an adjective (but only for round fruit?) and as an adverb referring to adjectives...


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## ger4

ThomasK said:


> I just found _hochkantig_, which I did not know, but which might perhaps be translated as _square_.


 I think _hochkantig_ puts more  emphasis on the fact that something is vertical (as opposed to horizontal), i.e. _Kante_ in this expression refers to the side of something which is facing upwards, planks leaning against a wall for example, or something standing upright or on edge. 

Figuratively, _hochkantig_ can also be used in idioms such as _hochkantig rausfliegen_, lit. 'to fly out upright', meaning something like 'to be kicked out of somewhere' (out of a building, out of a job,...), 'to get sacked immediately, without prior notice' (as it were,  before you had a chance to sit down, while you're still 'standing upright' in the doorway).


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## Armas

Finnish

_Pyöreä_ "round" (especially _ympäripyöreä_ "around-round") means vague, "round statement" avoids stating an opinion, like typical politicianspeak.

_Kulmikas_ "angular" means unrefined (behavior).


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## ThomasK

I see a link with our meaning as for _kulmikas_. We can use _rond_ in the same meaning as Finnish too, but also in others.


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## 810senior

I recall myself that we might say *遠回り*な言い方(lit. *detouring* saying) or *遠回し*に述べる(lit. to state *detouringly*) in the sense of a _round statement_ which is as vague and ambiguous as the politician language.


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