# à peau de chagrin



## citrus82

The entire sentence is:

Car, si quasiment tous les candidats à l'élection présidentielle se sont prononcés contre toute amnistie  ou pour une loi réduite à peau de chagrin; le message a pour l'instant bien du mal à passer et se traduire au volant.

à peau de chagrin means-  to shrink from? 
I don't understand it's meaning in this context.

Merci en avance.


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## kariana

could "réduite au minimum possible" be useful ?


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## citrus82

Merci. 

J'ai compris.


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## emma42

I think it might mean "to shrink incrementally - bit by bit, slowly but surely". I also think this might be a metaphor originating in Balzac's novel "La Peau de Chagrin".  There are a couple of other threads on this, but they are not that helpful, á mon avis.


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## citrus82

Thank you. I understood in this sentence it translates as 'unfortunately' ?


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## OlivierG

Hi, Citrus,

I don't think so. The Emma's definition is accurate, it means that they removed parts of the text, little by little, until it remains almost nothing.


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## liulia

"bit by bit" perhaps?


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## archijacq

Moi aussi je cherche à enrichir mon vocabulaire...
"shrink" me va parfaitement - est-ce qu'on pourrait dire aussi "downsized" ou "cutdown" ?


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## emma42

Ces mots-là n'expriment pas l'idée de "peu à peu", archi.  Je cherche une expression qui convient à la poèsie de "peau de chagrin", mais il me semble impossible.  *"Reduced incrementally until practically useless"*? Trop longue, je sais.  Et certainement pas de la poèsie!


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
L'expression est "réduit comme une peau de chagrin" Vous trouverez une petite explication ici : http://www.chilton.com/paq/archive/PAQ-01-134.html


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## archijacq

slimmed down (fast, too...)


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## emma42

Wow, archi, your acquisition of vocabulary is unstoppable!

"Slimmed down" is good, but perhaps not quite in the right register for this phrase.  The phrase is in quite a formal register, non?


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
Et vous avez "shagreen" en anglais qui a un sens proche de ce "chagrin" là!
Voir ici : http://www.answers.com/topic/shagreen


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## catay

> l'idée de "peu à peu",


 Just an idea, perhaps the verb "dwindle" would work here
....reduced until "it dwindles into oblivion"


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## emma42

Oui!  J'aime bien "dwindle"!  Excellente idée, catay.


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## catay

Merci Emma42. J'ai suivi le lien que Carnesecchi a donné(#l0)
"Et quand la peau sera réduite à néant, Raphaël mourra." Alors, peut-être "dwindle into oblivion" ou quelque chose comme ça.


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## liulia

The sentence is about a law. I think that some of the more poetic suggestions are not really appropriate. 

In my humble opinion, it has more to do with the law being "made totally ineffective or useless, being gradually reduced to complete ineffectiveness", rather than "oblivion" for example.


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## emma42

It's true the sentence is about a law, but the expression "à peau de chagrin" seems to me to be full of imagery and poetry.  This is an anglophone reading, however.  Does it appear "legalistic" or "poetic" to our French forer@s, or neither?

I do also agree that "oblivion" is perhaps going too far!


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## catay

*oblivion*
n 1: the state of being disregarded or forgotten [syn: limbo]

Given the number of laws on the books, some do pass into "oblivion" ...by custom or by a new precedent we no longer observe them. However, if it is a question here of effectiveness or efficacity, perhaps it is reduced to "an exercise in futility."


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
I don't thing it's a matter of reducing the law little by little, I think it's about a brutal shrinkage or disparition of our "traditional-post-president-election-amnesty-law".
The sentence means that the candidates said they are against any amnesty law when the future president is elected or, if we can't go to a complete desapearance of that tradition, at leat only decree a law reduced (or cut or shrunk ...) to almost nothing.
Hope it helps!


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## citrus82

Thank you.You were most helpful, in context with what I was looking for.
Everyone else, thank you as well.


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## Moon Palace

I have just read the long thread, and two phrases have come to my mind which have not been suggested, so I dare add them:
'a law that will be tantamount to nearly nothing'
'a law that will be next to nothing'
Indeed, no poetry in these two phrases, but the idea is that the law they are ready to vote will contain so little that it will not be considered as too huge a forgiving law (which the traditional amnesty law is). 
The phrase 'peau de chagrin' is a real idiom, and to me it doesn't bear here the comparison with the previously huge context but rather the result, that is its insignificant weight.


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## citrus82

So, 'peau de chagrin' in this instance could be translated as 'insignificant' or 'lessened to the extent that it [the amnesty] is not taken for granted.'
and otherwise, in a more poetic sense, 'to shrink/reduce' ?


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## Moon Palace

It is lessened indeed, but not to the extent that the amnesty is not granted, rather to the extent that there are so few crimes which will be liable to be forgiven that it will not give rise to much protest from opponents to the candidate. Actually, the idea is that candidates who allow for too large an amnesty are blamed for trying to seduce voters this way. So much so that candidates now stick with the tradition of amnesty but try to make it as inconspicuous as possible. Hope it helps.


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## citrus82

It did. Thank you.


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## Budd

I think "steadily shrinking" might do it in many cases. Take a look at the graph on this page of Lepoint.fr which is headed "Une année scolaire en peau de chagrin" which I'd translate as "A steadily shrinking school year."


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## Itisi

In this context, 'emptied of its substance' ?


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## Budd

No. Steadily shrinking refers to extent, not content. The school year can be shorter _and _asor more substantial at the same time. Admittedly, I wouldn't bet on it.


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## Itisi

Budd said:


> The school year can be shorter _and _asor more substantial at the same time.



Sorry, by 'in this context' I meant the context of the original question about a law.


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## Budd

Yes, that would be better. Near the beginning of the thread, Emma suggested "bit by bit," which make sense. However, the phrase in question "contre toute amnistie  ou pour une loi réduite à peau de chagrin" seems to have an ellipsis.  A law "reduced bit by bit" makes no sense in English. Perhaps it should be recast, at least in English, more or less like this: "... against complete amnesty or steadily reduced _penalties_." I don't see how in English or French a "law" can be reduced, shrunk, etc. Maybe a native francophone can comment on the quality of the original statement.


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## Itisi

It means that the wording of the law has been changed so as to make it ineffectual.  The accent is not on it happening 'bit by bit', but on the fact that there is nothing left of it in the end.


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## Budd

I don't follow that. There is nothing about wording of any law in the original statement.


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## Itisi

Budd said:


> I don't follow that. There is nothing about wording of any law in the original statement.



'une _loi_ réduite à peau de chagrin' - To make it 'réduite' is to change it, and to change it, you have to change the wording, do you not? It wasn't a translation, but an attempt at an explanation!


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## tellect

Simplement "a very narrow scope law" ? (pour préférer le registre formel au caractère imagé ...)


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## Budd

Of course the wording would change since it would be a new version of the law. I'd guess "réduite" in this particualr case would mean more or less "made less forceful or severe," referring either to penalties or enforcement. Whether, as you suggest, it would gut the law would be apparent only if you had the text of it right in front of you. From the original example, I don't see how anyone can tell. That is, I think the original is obscure.


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## Itisi

Budd said:


> From the original example, I don't see how anyone can tell. That is, I think the original is obscure.


I think it's quite clear!  The text says that all the candidates were against an amnesty.  So clearly they will produce a law that is in that spirit.  There is nothing wrong with the French.


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## Budd

It does say not all were against an amnesty: "Car, si quasiment tous les candidats à l'élection présidentielle se sont  prononcés contre toute amnistie * ou* pour une loi réduite à peau de chagrin." Some were against amnesty and some were for "une loi réduite," but la loi réduite is unfortunately not stated in the original query. The original quotation just a dependent clause, not a complete sentence. To know what's meant, we'd have to have the independent clause.


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## Itisi

Sorry, not 'they will produce a law', but 'they would wish to produce a law'.


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## tellect

Il n'y a dans la phrase d'origine aucune évolution de la loi. Il y a juste une distinction entre plusieurs conceptions de l'amnistie.
Pour simplifier, les candidats à la présidentielle ont le choix entre 3 conceptions :
1) Pas d'amnistie du tout
2) Une amnistie avec une portée assez large, conformément à "la tradition"
3) Une amnistie avec une portée très faible, à savoir que seules quelques infractions mineures seraient amnistiées.

La phrase de départ dit simplement que les candidats on choisi la conception 1 ou la conception 3 et écarté la conception 2.


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## Itisi

tellect said:


> La phrase de départ dit simplement que les candidats on choisi la conception 1 ou la conception 3 et écarté la conception 2.


Voilà qui est clair, et j'aurais voulu pouvoir exprimer la chose aussi clairement...


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