# Contemporary Italian= Tuscan?



## merquiades

To what extent is standard contemporary Italian based on the Tuscan language/usage?  If it is based on Tuscan, is it an older form rather than the modern language spoken in Florence, Siena, Pisa...?  If it is not Tuscan, how has Italian diverged?  Do modern Italian admire Tuscan and/or emulate it?

Hello foreros.  This is a rather general and open question.  I'm obviously not really looking for a precise answer, like 90%.  Feel free to talk about grammar, pronunciation, linguistics, literary examples and add any complementary information about Italian/Tuscan origins you feel is relevant for a discussion. At the moment I can't envision how the topic will evolve.  Italian experts may know loads on this matter. I can only say I would guess that Italian is largely Tuscan in origin but has developed its own character.  Looking at the characteristics of Roman dialect, the one that might contribute more for its central power/location, I do not see much lasting influence on the standard.

Molte grazie. Non mi importa che scriviate in italiano se è più facile...


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## wtrmute

The codification of the modern Italian Standard language happened in the 16th Century, most of it due to the work of Cardinal Pietro Bembo.  Though Venetian, he held Petrarca and Boccaccio as the models of literature, and thus his efforts went in the direction of placing Florentine Tuscan in the forefront.


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## Hulalessar

The situation is a bit complex, but as I understand it, Standard Italian is a development of 14th century Florentine. Perhaps unusually compared to many other standards it did not arise by economic or political hegemony, royal diktat or a centralist agenda, but because of the cultural prestige of Florence and particularly the influence of Dante, Boccaccio and Petrarch. Modern Tuscan has moved on, but Italian has been subject not only to conservation (like a lot of standards) but also deliberate archaising to emphasise continuity with both 14th century literature and Latin.


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## bearded

Hello
I know English, but due to the complexity of the issue, using my mother-tongue facilitates me hugely.
Premetto che ho un 'orecchio' di italiano prevalentemente settentrionale, avendo vissuto un terzo della mia vita a Bologna e quasi due terzi a Milano. Ho trascorso però anche alcuni anni in Toscana.
In generale direi che la parlata toscana è fantastica se confrontata con quella delle altre regioni italiane.  Anche il più umile contadino di un remoto paesino toscano può essere compreso facilmente in tutta Italia se parla il suo ''dialetto''. Ciò non è vero per gli abitanti delle altre regioni.
In questo senso, il toscano è molto vicino all'Italiano standard, e suona inoltre estremamente armonioso.
Tuttavia la lingua standard si è formata anche grazie al contributo delle altre regioni italiane - ad es., in letteratura, Manzoni e Leopardi (per citare autori importantissimi che hanno influenzato la lingua nell'epoca...moderna) non erano toscani...
La parlata toscana è rimasta un po' ''indietro'' rispetto allo standard, conservando vocaboli e modi di dire che altrove in Italia suonano antiquati:
ad esempio _dianzi, uggioso, dugento (=duecento), abbarbicato, stamani (o addirittura: stamani mattina), ieri lo vidi _(col disusato passato remoto), _noi si va a mangiare,_ ecc.ecc. Vi sono comunque anche modi propriamente dialettali: ad es. ricordo operai di Firenze che tornavano al lavoro dopo la pausa dicendo _s'ha dda di' d'andà (= si ha da dire di andare, _diciamo che è ora di andare))...
Per quanto riguarda la pronuncia, Firenze è un modello per tutta Italia: vocali ''e'' ed ''o'' giustamente chiuse o aperte secondo la regola di derivazione dal latino (con qualche bizzarra eccezione: es: _mèttere _invece di _méttere, _dal latino ''mittere''), inoltre il raddoppiamento sintattico (es. a mme, dal latino 'ad me') che nel Nord Italia non si fa sentire, mentre nel Sud è esagerato.... Tuttavia il tipico difetto della pronuncia toscana, che la rende diversa da quella standard, è nel modo di pronunciare la lettera c (sia dura che dolce): al posto della c dura intervocalica (il suono k, per intenderci) i fiorentini pronunciano una H aspirata: _affatiHato, la mia Hasa,... _ed al posto della c dolce intervocalica (il suono inglese tch) pronunciano sc (suono inglese sh): _basciare, cinquescentoscinquanta _= 550, _fiumiscello.._
Considerando che la lingua italiana ha ed ha avuto, per sua natura, un'evoluzione infinitamente più lenta di altre (ad es. dell'Inglese), secondo me la parlata toscana, sebbene suoni un po' antiquata, è quella che fra le parlate regionali è la più vicina all'italiano standard, ed ancora oggi può fungere da modello.
Merquiades ha scritto: ''if standard contemporary spoken Italian is based on Tuscan, is it an older form rather than the modern language spoken in Florence..?'' - I would reply: no, nowadays the standard language is more modern than the Tuscan speech. Tuscan is very conservative, and nevertheless, since it  possesses a very rich vocabulary (retaining also ancient and obsolete terms)  and a very harmonious pronunciation, it is indeed admired by educated Italians, and is still considered the model and the ''cradle'' of our language.


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## Riverplatense

bearded man said:


> al posto della c dura intervocalica (il suono k, per intenderci) i fiorentini pronunciano una H aspirata: _affatiHato, la mia Hasa,... _ed al posto della c dolce intervocalica (il suono inglese tch) pronunciano sc (suono inglese sh): _basciare, cinquescentoscinquanta _= 550, _fiumiscello.._



Si sente anche la /t/ intervocalica spirantizzata che così diventa /θ/, e anche la terza occlusiva subisce un'alterazione in posizione intervocalica (tranne nel caso di raddoppiamento sintattico: _la hasa_, però _a ccasa, e ttu_), e si ha l'esito /p/ → /φ/ o semplicemente l'aspirazione della /p/ (_e ppephe_). E a differenza di molti dialetti italiani in toscano anche il suono /dʒ/ perde l'elemento occlusivo diventando cioè /ʒ/, sempre se non si ha raddoppiamento sintattico o /dʒ/ preceduto da /l n r/.

Per quanto riguarda invece la morfosintassi, in qualche dialetto toscano si osservano pure pronomi soggetto clitici come quelli dei dialetti settentrionali e del francese.


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## Nino83

Hi, merquiades!  

I'm speaking about Tuscan *dialect*, not Tuscan accent or Tuscan pronunciation of Italian language. 
You just know _gorgia toscana_ (intervocalic /p t k/ > [φ θ h] /b d g/ > [β δ ɣ] /ʧ ʤ/ > [ʃ ʒ]). 
Definite articles are [i] and [e] instead of [il] and [i], _il cane_ [ik'kaːne], _i cani_ [e 'haːni]. 
The plural form of noun/adjectives ending in "e" is "e", equal to the singular form _le viti verdi_ is _le vite verde_ (= _la vite verde_).   
The diphthong /wò/ in open syllables (from the Vulgar Latin /ò/) was monophthongized, so we have _bòno còre_ instead of _buono cuore_.  
Possessive adjectives _mio/a, tuo/a, suo/a_ = _mi, tu, su_. 
Negation _non_ = _un_. 
Personal pronoun _tu_ = _te_. 
_*Tua* sorella *non* viene. *Tu* vieni._ = _*Tu* sorella *un* viene. *Te* vieni._ 
The first person plural conjugation is different. _Noi andiamo al mare_ = _noi si va al mare_ (noi + _si impersonale_).  
In the infinitive the final _-re_ is lost. _Cantare_ = _Cantà_.  
Mandatory subject clitic pronoun in the third person singular. _Non si mangia_ = _un *la* si mangia_.  

As bearded man said, it is the most similar to standard Italian but it is not equal.


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## francisgranada

merquiades said:


> To what extent is standard contemporary Italian based on the Tuscan language/usage?  If it is based on Tuscan, is it an older form rather than the modern language spoken in Florence, Siena, Pisa...?  If it is not Tuscan, how has Italian diverged?  Do modern Italian admire Tuscan and/or emulate it? ....


A metaphoric answer: "Lingua toscana in bocca romana".

My _ad hoc _interpretation of this famous Italian saying is the following: _The Tuscan language (= metaphor for the now standard Italian) spoken by Romans (= rather by erudite Italians of non Tuscan provenience) is the correct/standard version of the Italian language. _(I.e. the Tuscan dialect spoken by the native Tuscans is not equal to the proper Italian language, however the commonly accepted standard Italian is based on the historical Tuscan).

This is, of course,  neither an exact nor a linguistic answer  ...


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## bearded

What Riverplatense and Nino83 have added is of course quite right. In my #4 I just mentioned the main and most evident characteristics of the Tuscan speech, and did by no means pretend to give an exhaustive description of it.
As for the _bocca romana, _in my opinion the proverb is no longer valid nowadays. It is a very old proverb (and presumably invented by Romans), and in the last couple of centuries the Roman accent has so strongly drifted towards the _accento meridionale, _that it has become annoying/irritating to any 'northern' ear... I agree with francisgranada (''rather by erudite/educated Italians of non-Tuscan provenance'').


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## Nino83

bearded man said:


> in the last couple of centuries the Roman accent has so strongly drifted towards the _accento meridionale_


Do you think so?
If we speak of Roman accent (not Romanesco dialect), the only common feature with other southern accents is the doubling of intervocalic /b, ʤ, j, w/.


bearded man said:


> ''if standard contemporary spoken Italian is based on Tuscan, is it an older form rather than the modern language spoken in Florence..?'' - I would reply: no, nowadays the standard language is more modern than the Tuscan speech. Tuscan is very conservative


I don't think Tuscan, expecially Fiorentino dialect, is more conservative.
For example, in Fiorentino, like in the other Gallo-Italian languages, there are mandatory clitic subject pronouns, while standard Italian and the other peninsular Italian languages/dialects are null-subject or pro-drop languages, like Spanish, European Portuguese, Occitan, Galician, Romanian, Catalan.
Here the Friorentino mandatory subject clitic pronouns:
(Io) (e) parlo
(te) *tu* parli
(lui/Mario) *e* parla, (lei/la Maria) *la* parla
(noi) *si* parla
(voi) *vu* parlate
(loro/i ragazzi) *e* parlano, (loro/le ragazze) *le* parlano
As you can see, only the first person singular clitic "e" is not mandatory.
Source: Brandi, Cordin, Dialetti e italiano: un confronto sul parametro del soggetto nullo.


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## bearded

@Nino83 
We have slightly different ideas.
To northern ears, Roman features like _marte*dd*ì, ''a ttra ppo*g*o'' (TV), _(tendency to _annà _for _andare), trova*d*o...etc.etc. _sound very ''meridionali''.
Concerning Florentine speech, when I wrote 'conservative' I was  above all thinking of its vocabulary. Regarding grammar, I agree with you (but why did you write ''In Fiorentino, like in the *other *Gallo-Italian languages..''? Florentine does not belong to the ''gaulish-italian'' dialect group, as far as I know).


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## Nino83

bearded man said:


> Fiorentino, like in the *other *Gallo-Italian languages..


Corrected, thank you. 


bearded man said:


> _'a ttra ppo*g*o'' (TV), trova*d*o...etc.etc. _sound very ''meridionali''.


The sonorization of intervocalic voiceless stops is a recent Romanesco (*dialect*) feature, in common with Perugino and Anconetano, and it comes from the Gallo-Italian area. Neapolitans, Apulians, Sicilians say "poco, trovato". 
Rohlfs writes: "D'altra parte, l'effetto degli influssi settentrionali sembra che si manifesti fino a Roma, con provenienza dalla Romagna, attraverso le Marche e l'Umbria, in modo che la sonorizzazione di _k, t, p_ con passaggio a _g, d, v_, caratteristica dell'Italia settentrionale, ha turbato la situazione fonetica originaria esistente in tutta questa stricia di territorio (conservazione di k, t, p)". 


bearded man said:


> tendency to _a*nn*à _for _a*nd*are_


This is a dialectal feature. I think Francis, with his "in bocca romana", meant when a Roman speaks Italian, not the Romanesco dialect, but let's wait for him to clarify. 


bearded man said:


> Regarding grammar, I agree with you


Grammar, pronunciation (gorgia), syntax.


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## bearded

That's why I put the _annà _in brackets, and spoke of 'tendency'... I could add a tendency to say _monno _for mondo, etc.etc.

I'll be absent - and unable to reply - for a few days.


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## francisgranada

Nino83 said:


> ... I think Francis, with his "in bocca romana", meant when a Roman speaks Italian, not the Romanesco dialect, ...


 Of course.

If the Tuscan dilalect/regional language were _identical _with the standard Italian, or if standard Italian were _not_ based on Tuscan, then this proverb wouldn't have sense (at least not that of my interpretation).


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## Penyafort

Standards are attempts to 'freeze' as much as possible a particular set of conventions in any language. The fact that the spoken forms in Tuscany have naturally evolved and therefore differ a little from the standard ones does not necessarily mean that they were not originally based on educated or literary Florentine.

Just take a look at other major languages and you will see that several features common nowadays in their birthplaces may not be acceptable in their general standardized forms.


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## Nino83

Penyafort said:


> The fact that the spoken forms in Tuscany have naturally evolved and therefore differ a little from the standard ones does not necessarily mean that they were not originally based on educated or literary Florentine.


Pietro Bembo depured the language of Dante, Boccaccio e Petrarca, removing all that subject clitic pronouns that were just used in Florentine speech. The difference is that during the XVI century, they became mandatory in Florentine, but they were just present and common during the XIII century. 
Florentine, and Tuscan in general, was heavily influenced by Gallo-Italian languages, in both pronunciation (see sonorization of intervocalic stops) and syntax.


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## Pugnator

The definitive codification and formation of Italian happened only in the late 18th. Before this the situation was confuse and was taken as model the noble florence dialect of 1400.  The debate was very big, here the wikipedia page about it but it isn't disponible on English, only on Italian,latin,spanish and Galician. (and not italian page say very little)


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