# unambiguity of the characters?



## hilbert

hi 
I have a question: Are the characters really unambiguous? I don´t think so for example:
(you- the same character)
yo3u = friend (like yo3uqi2ng = friendship, yo3uha3o= friendly)
BUT:
pe2ngyou= friend (without 3. tone)

So, it´s not enough only knowing, how to pronounce a single character you have to learn the pronunciation of conjunctions seperately.

thx


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## samanthalee

hilbert said:


> BUT:
> pe2ngyou= friend (without 3. tone)
> 
> So, it´s not enough only knowing, how to pronounce a single character you have to learn the pronunciation of conjunctions seperately.



In this case, it is alright to pronounce  peng2you3 = friend. The use of light tone (i.e. without tone marking) is not a habit practiced everywhere.

In Taiwan, Malaysia and Singapore, we rarely use the light tone. I won't say never as there may be cases I've overlooked, but it's definitely next to never. For a beginner, it should be enough to learn to pronounce each character as noted in the dictionary. It won't be wrong and you wouldn't sound pretentious.


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## palomnik

Hilbert, this is one problem that Mandarin has _vis-a-vis _the other dialects. 

Mandarin has less tones than most other dialects have. At one time it had more tones.  As it lost tones, the number of homophones increased, and to maintain intelligibility the language developed a large number of two syllable words. This in turn created a situation where it was unnecessary to stress the tones of each syllable, and nowadays unstressed syllables frequently lose their tones, at least in standard Beijing Mandarin.

As Samantha says, you can pronounce all the tones and it's okay. Probably the best advice is - pronounce it the way your teacher does!


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## Mugi

> This in turn created a situation where it was unnecessary to stress the tones of each syllable


And then, to confuse things more, as separate nuances developed within a certain term, sometimes it has become necessary to not stress the tone of a certain syllable (e.g. 地方 dìfāng vs dìfang)


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## kareno999

Mugi said:


> And then, to confuse things more, as separate nuances developed within a certain term, sometimes it has become necessary to not stress the tone of a certain syllable (e.g. 地方 dìfāng vs dìfang)


You do confused me. What is exactly the difference between dìfāng & dìfang please?


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## kareno999

samanthalee said:


> In this case, it is alright to pronounce peng2you3 = friend. The use of light tone (i.e. without tone marking) is not a habit practiced everywhere.
> 
> In Taiwan, Malaysia and Singapore, we rarely use the light tone. I won't say never as there may be cases I've overlooked, but it's definitely next to never. For a beginner, it should be enough to learn to pronounce each character as noted in the dictionary. It won't be wrong and you wouldn't sound pretentious.


The light tone is also less used in Southern China and by those who learn Mandarin as a second language(dialect). It's also the case with R-coloring.
I'm always an objector to treating light-tone and R-coloring as indispensable parts of Putonghua (Chinese RP). Only Beijing people (or maybe people from Northeast too)like to use them. 
Their accent is just too obvious to be recognizable everywhere.


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## palomnik

kareno999 said:


> You do confused me. What is exactly the difference between dìfāng & dìfang please?


 
Dìfāng is a concrete location. Dìfang is an abstract "thing", sort of, as opposed to dongxi, which would be a concrete thing.

这个地方 - here, i.e., in this place.
不明白的地方 - things/points/areas that aren't clear.
吃的东西 - things to eat.


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## Kwunlam

So, for some cases, it can serve as meaning-distinction, right ?


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## samanthalee

palomnik said:


> Dìfāng is a concrete location. Dìfang is an abstract "thing", sort of, as opposed to dongxi, which would be a concrete thing.
> 
> 这个地方 - here, i.e., in this place.
> 不明白的地方 - things/points/areas that aren't clear.
> 吃的东西 - things to eat.



I know what you mean. But it is not practised everywhere. In Singapore and Malaysia (where we are mostly descendants of Southern Chinese), we pronounce 地方 as Di4fang1. Whether 地方 is a concrete location or an abstract "thing" can be inferred from the context. There is no need to use tones to differentiate the meanings.
Similarly with 东西, we always pronounce it as Dong1xi1 and not Dong1xi.


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## Kwunlam

samanthalee said:


> I know what you mean. But it is not practised everywhere. In Singapore and Malaysia (where we are mostly descendants of Southern Chinese), we pronounce 地方 as Di4fang1. Whether 地方 is a concrete location or an abstract "thing" can be inferred from the context. There is no need to use tones to differentiate the meanings.
> Similarly with 东西, we always pronounce it as Dong1xi1 and not Dong1xi.



Can I ask you, Samantha, or any others, one question about the Chinese-teaching situation in Singapore?  Last time I was in Singapore, and the Chinese teacher said that they are following the system used in Mainland China (well, long ago, I am not 100% if I remember correctly). 

So, my question is, could it be that in "classroom" they still teach Dong1xi, but in common life situations people just simply use Dong1xi1 without bothering the minute difference ?


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## samanthalee

Kwunlam said:


> Last time I was in Singapore, and the Chinese teacher said that they are following the system used in Mainland China (well, long ago, I am not 100% if I remember correctly).



There are indeed efforts to follow Mainland China. I've checked my dictionary that's published in Singapore. According to it, 东西 (thing) should be pronounced as Dong1xi.

Hmm...We have to accept that the use of light tones as practised by the Northern Chinese is the Standard Mandarin. The speech habits of Singapore and Malaysia and Taiwan are not Standard Mandarin.


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## Kwunlam

samanthalee said:


> There are indeed efforts to follow Mainland China. I've checked my dictionary that's published in Singapore. According to it, 东西 (thing) should be pronounced as Dong1xi.
> 
> Hmm...We have to accept that the use of light tones as practised by the Northern Chinese is the Standard Mandarin. The speech habits of Singapore and Malaysia and Taiwan are not Standard Mandarin.



Thank you for your explanation. I guess that the Southern Mandarin is not the same as the Northern is just a speech reality 語言現實, not a value-judgment. So, there is no need for us to be sad about it, right?

I suppose that the "standardisation" problem does not matter so much, unless the native or non-native people are considering taking part in some official examinations, in which the candidates are supposed to follow the rules of standard pronunciations. So if our foreign friends wants to take part in the Beijing examination and want to study there, maybe they can think of paying more attention to these details. 

Mandarin is after all an "artificial" language. It is not even identical with the Beijing-dialect. It is understandable that there are differences between the "artificial" language (what we hear from the news-reporters) and the actually spoken language in real life. Given this, a foreign learner can judge for themselves what they should strive for.


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## Mugi

> Dìfāng is a concrete location. Dìfang is an abstract "thing"


Not quite right - whether it's a concrete place or abstract, 地方 can be pronounced "dìfang".


> 这个地方 - here, i.e., in this place.
> 不明白的地方 - things/points/areas that aren't clear.


Both of these are pronounced "dìfang"

From 现代汉语词典
Dìfāng = 1) 各级行政区划的统称(跟 '中央' 相对) [e.g. 地方税]; 2) 本地; 当地 [e.g. 地方戏]
When used as an adjective to mean "local" it should be "dìfāng".

Dìfang = 1) 某一区域; 空间的一部分; 部位 [physical or spatial locations]; 2) 部分 [abstract locations]
When used as a noun to mean "place" (whether concrete or abstract) it should be "dìfang".


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## hilbert

thanks to all  , so I have no worry to learn the them wrong.


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## lasirena

Just a note: In the States we don't translate 轻声 as "light tone", but rather as "neutral tone".  Regional variance.


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