# position of هذا



## FKhan

Hi,

Sometimes the word modified by هذا comes before it and sometimes after it. For example, هذا الولد طويل (This boy is tall.) but ولدي هذا طويل (This boy of mine is tall.) and خالد هذا طويل (This Khalid is tall.)

Is there a rule for when it comes before and when it comes after?

Thanks.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,

Oui il y a une règle... 

See : *Q15 Ism Ishaarah*


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## Ali Smith

If the word that هذا refers to has لام التعريف before it, you must put هذا before it. You cannot say الولد هذا طويل. You must say هذا الولد طويل.


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## rarabara

FKhan said:


> 1) هذا الولد طويل (This boy is tall.)






FKhan said:


> 2) ولدي هذا طويل (This boy of mine is tall.) and





FKhan said:


> 3) خالد هذا طويل (This Khalid is tall.)


hi,

I understand different meanings from these expressions. Anyone can correct me if any of these translations is  incorrect (Minor differences available between mine and yours).

1) this boy is tall.
2) My son is this tall one.
3) Khalid is this tall one.


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## Mahaodeh

Ali Smith said:


> If the word that هذا refers to has لام التعريف before it, you must put هذا before it. You cannot say الولد هذا طويل. You must say هذا الولد طويل.


Where do find these rules? 
There is no such rule, you can say الولد هذا طويل, it’s a perfectly fine sentence.



FKhan said:


> Is there a rule for when it comes before and when it comes after?


No, not really. Demonstratives and the words they refer to are both اعرب حسب موقعها من الجملة. A demonstrative does not modify المشار إليه, it only refers to it. 

There is a more general rule, the main subject of this he sentence comes first if it’s allowed grammatically. So if you are saying *this boy*, then هذا comes first; if you are saying *this boy* then then الولد comes first. That would be why ولدي هذا has the ولد first because the main thing is often “my boy”. This doesn’t mean that هذا ولدي is incorrect. But that is more about style and emphasis than anything else.



rarabara said:


> I understand different meanings from these expressions. Anyone can correct me if any of these translations is incorrect (Minor differences available between mine and yours).
> 
> 1) this boy is tall.
> 2) My son is this tall one.
> 3) Khalid is this tall one.


I’m sorry but I don’t understand it this way.
هذا الولد طويل = this boy is tall.
ولدي هذا طويل = this son of mine is tall.
خالد هذا طويل = Kalid is tall.

The nuance is that in the second and third sentences the demonstrative is an adjective for المشار إليه.


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## rarabara

Mahaodeh said:


> I’m sorry but I don’t understand it this way.
> هذا الولد طويل = this boy is tall.
> ولدي هذا طويل = this son of mine is tall.
> خالد هذا طويل = Kalid is tall.
> 
> The nuance is that in the second and third sentences the demonstrative is an adjective for المشار إليه.



mahaodeh, why did you think so?
you see that هذا  is coming before a word which is in normal case adjective , but this word is now alone so it should be a noun or should be counted in that way from my understanding.
or did you realise what the difference(s) were between mine and yours.
maybe @elroy 's idea would be good here. I saw at a line he was saying that he was bilingual of Arabic and English. or someone else's idea who knows at the same time Turkish and Arabic well would also be good.


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## Mahaodeh

rarabara said:


> mahaodeh, why did you think so?


That’s how I understand it. It’s also probably how most Arabs would.


rarabara said:


> you see that هذا is coming before a word which is in normal case adjective


I’m assuming that you mean that the word that follows هذا is the adjective because the normal case in Arabic is that the adjective follows the noun.

If this is what you mean then I’m afraid you are mistaken. In the case of هذا الولد طويل, this is the i’rab (summarized):
هذا: مبتدأ
الولد: بدل من هذا
طويل: خبر.

So the مشار إليه is a بدل. This means that هذا and الولد can replace each other without changing the overall meaning:
هذا طويل = الولد طويل, if of course we already know that هذا refers to the boy.


rarabara said:


> but this word is now alone


I don’t follow, in all three cases المشار إليه is in the sentence. What do you mean by “alone”?


rarabara said:


> so it should be a noun or should be counted in that way from my understanding.


It is a noun, all demonstrative are nouns in Arabic. It’s in the name: *أسماء* الإشارة.

Perhaps you are confused because I said that هذا is an adjective in the second and third sentence. I don’t know how it is in Turkish but in Arabic an adjective _is_ a noun. It becomes an adjective due to its position in the sentence. Most nouns, including demonstratives and relative pronouns, can be adjectives. The exceptions are proper nouns and what is known as الأسماء الجامدة, and these may be adjectives figuratively. Perhaps you mean something else by adjective?

To eliminate any confusion, I’ll just rephrase:
The nuance is that in the second and third sentences the اسم الإشارة is a صفة for المشار إليه.

What I mean is:
خالد هذا طويل:
خالد: مبتدأ
هذا: صفة لخالد
طويل: خبر



rarabara said:


> maybe @elroy 's idea would be good here.


Elroy’s point of view is always welcome. 🙂


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## rarabara

Mahaodeh said:


> That’s how I understand it. It’s also probably how most Arabs would.


if this is so, perhaps I should decide to feel myself a bit unhappy .
but actually I was implying the possibility of expressing any statement differently in any else language


Mahaodeh said:


> I’m assuming that you mean that the word that follows هذا is the adjective because the normal case in Arabic is that the adjective follows the noun.



not exactly. follow please these expressions and explanations if possible.


هذا طويل : means "this tall (one)(i.e. this tall one) (in fact, the subject is not defined there so it might either be animate or inanimate)"
ولدي طويل : means my son is tall.
ولدٌ طولٌ: "a tall son (indefinite noun is "son" and طول there is adjective)
هذا ولدٌ طولٌ: this son is tall (one) ,there : هذا is adjective. I assume that طويل is also adjective and it is also predicate.
هذا ولدي طول: this son of mine is tall.
ولدي هذا طويلٌ: my son is this tall one.(maybe we mention the same thing . because if "tall one" paraphrase can be accepted as a "noun" then yes you we are thinking the same thing. but, if "tall" there is adjective ("طول") then ...هذا should be adverb)
but this last sample conforms more suitable.

هذا طول ولد: this tall one is a son.
......


Mahaodeh said:


> Elroy’s point of view is always welcome. 🙂


I just saw at somewhere , he was saying he was bilingual of english and arabic. so I assumed or supposed that he might have a different point of view , but  more, rather than this , that might be a type of thinking way happening in the brain.   
really, you may also have the same property because you seem like you are from London,England. If so , could you inform please whether you were also bilingual of english and arabic?


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,



rarabara said:


> if this is so, perhaps I should decide to feel myself a bit unhappy


Do not discourage yourself, persevere even if it's not always easy ...



rarabara said:


> هذا طويل : means "this tall (one)(i.e. this tall one) (in fact, the subject is not defined there so it might either be animate or inanimate)"


- I think the problem is here... هذا طويل is a complete nominal sentence: the demonstrative هذا is the subject and the word طويل is predicate (khabar) so the sentence means : "This is tall".

In general (I even think it's always the case, correct me if I'm wrong), when we have "a demonstrative + an indefinite noun" it is a nominal sentence not a demonstrative phrase...

It's like these sentences :

هذا كتاب - this is a book (not "this book")
هذا بيت - this is a house (not "this house")
هذا ولد - this is a boy (not "this boy")

So هذا كتاب or هذا بيت or هذا ولد do not form a demonstrative phrase, if you want to form a demonstrative phrase ("this book" /  "this house"/ "this boy"), add the article AL : هذا الكتاب / هذا البيت /هذا الولد



rarabara said:


> ولدي طويل : means my son is tall.
> ولدٌ طويلٌ: "a tall son (indefinite noun is "son" and طويل there is adjective)



Yes I also understand these sentences in this way.



rarabara said:


> هذا ولدٌ طويلٌ: this son is tall (one) ,there : هذا is adjective. I assume that طويل is also adjective and it is also predicate.



This time I understand the sentence differently, I understand it like that: "*this is a tall boy*".

As yourself said: ولدٌ طويلٌ means "_*a tall son*_", it's an adjective phrase not a (complete) sentence and as we saw above:  هذا ولدٌ means "_*this is a boy*_", it's a nominal sentence not a demonstrative phrase (that would mean "this boy") because ولدٌ is indefinite...

هذا is the subject (mubtada')
ولدٌ is the predicate (khabar)
طويلٌ is an adjective (na't) of ولدٌ

- I would translate the sentence "_*this boy is tall*_" like this: هذا الولدُ طويلٌ  (هذا الولدُ means "this boy").

In this case :

هذا is the subject (mubtada')
الولدُ is a permutative (badal) of هذا
طويلٌ is the predicate (khabar)




rarabara said:


> ولدي هذا طويلٌ: my son is this tall one.(maybe we mention the same thing . because if "tall one" paraphrase can be accepted as a "noun" then yes you we are thinking the same thing. but, if "tall" there is adjective ("طول") then ...هذا should be adverb)
> but this last sample conforms more suitable.


I think that هذا طويلٌ does not form a demonstrative phrase/syntactic unit (because طويلٌ is indefinite) so I think it's the structure ولدي هذا that forms a syntactic unit that means "this boy of mine"...

As seen above, a demonstrative can also form a demonstrative phrase/syntactic unit with a definite noun : هذا الولدُ ("this boy") so maybe the structure هذا الطويلُ means "this tall one" and then maybe we can translate "my son is this tall one" like that: ولدي هذا الطويلُ. But I'm not sure, maybe someone will confirm or correct ...




rarabara said:


> هذا طويل ولد: this tall one is a son.


According to what we have seen above (if this is correct): maybe we can translate "this tall one is a son" like that: هذا الطويلُ ولد. But again I'm not sure, maybe someone will confirm or correct ...


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## Ibn Nacer

Ibn Nacer said:


> Salut,
> 
> Oui il y a une règle...
> 
> See : *Q15 Ism Ishaarah*



See also p277 : Arabic Grammar




Mahaodeh said:


> No, not really. Demonstratives and the words they refer to are both اعرب حسب موقعها من الجملة. A demonstrative does not modify المشار إليه, it only refers to it.
> 
> There is a more general rule, the main subject of this he sentence comes first if it’s allowed grammatically. So if you are saying *this boy*, then هذا comes first; if you are saying *this boy* then then الولد comes first. That would be why ولدي هذا has the ولد first because the main thing is often “my boy”. This doesn’t mean that هذا ولدي is incorrect. But that is more about style and emphasis than anything else.


Yes, for the noun defined by article Al, indeed I saw that the two structures are possible: هذا الولد or  الولد هذا ... But it seems that there is a rule for the words defined other than with Article Al (proper name, definite annexation ...).






Source p277 : Arabic Grammar


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## zj73

However, structures like الولد هذا are rarely used. You always hear هذا الولد.


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## Mahaodeh

No, I would not say that at all. I use it all the time.


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## rarabara

mmm, ibn nacer, it seems you claim that هذا, would not be used with a noun which is in indefinite form, by the condition it comes first,right?


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,



rarabara said:


> mmm, ibn nacer, it seems you claim that هذا, would not be used with a noun which is in indefinite form, by the condition it comes first,right?


In what message?


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## rarabara

Ibn Nacer said:


> I think that هذا طويلٌ does not form a demonstrative phrase/syntactic unit (because طويلٌ is indefinite) so I think it's the structure ولدي هذا that forms a syntactic unit that means "this boy of mine"...





Ibn Nacer said:


> In what message?


the appearing message above and in the following (its queue). I understood in that way, if that is not intented so, then my apologies...


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## Hemza

Regarding your sentences, I think they go this way:


rarabara said:


> 1) this boy is tall.


هذا الولد طويل/الولد هذا طويل


rarabara said:


> 2) My son is this tall one.


ولدي هو الطويل


rarabara said:


> 3) Khalid is this tall one.


خالد هو الطويل


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## Ibn Nacer

rarabara said:


> the appearing message above and in the following (its queue). I understood in that way, if that is not intented so, then my apologies.


Ah OK thank you. 

Yes you are right, for me, the structure هذا طويلٌ is not a demonstrative phrase because the word طويلٌ is undefined. For me this structure is a nominal sentence. In general, I think that the structure "a demonstrative + an indefinite noun" it is a nominal sentence not a demonstrative phrase...

I had explained that in the same message:



Ibn Nacer said:


> - I think the problem is here... هذا طويل is a complete nominal sentence: the demonstrative هذا is the subject and the word طويل is predicate (khabar) so the sentence means : "This is tall".
> 
> In general (I even think it's always the case, correct me if I'm wrong), when we have "a demonstrative + an indefinite noun" it is a nominal sentence not a demonstrative phrase...
> 
> It's like these sentences :
> 
> هذا كتاب - this is a book (not "this book")
> هذا بيت - this is a house (not "this house")
> هذا ولد - this is a boy (not "this boy")
> 
> So هذا كتاب or هذا بيت or هذا ولد do not form a demonstrative phrase, if you want to form a demonstrative phrase ("this book" / "this house"/ "this boy"), add the article AL : هذا الكتاب / هذا البيت /هذا الولد


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,



Hemza said:


> ولدي هو الطويل


For _"my son is *this* tall one"_. I proposed this: ولدي *هذا *الطويلُ ...

But I do not know if it's correct (et c'est peut-être un peu lourd...).

It seems to me that the sentence ولدي هو الطويل means : _"my son is* the* tall one", right? _

C'est-à-dire en français :_ "mon fils/garçon est le grand"... _Mais c'est vrai que le pronom de séparation هو peut ajouter de l'emphase et le sens pourrait être _"mon fils/garçon c'est le grand / celui qui est grand"._



Ibn Nacer said:


> As seen above, a demonstrative can also form a demonstrative phrase/syntactic unit with a definite noun : هذا الولدُ ("this boy") so maybe the structure هذا الطويلُ means "this tall one" and then maybe we can translate "my son is this tall one" like that: ولدي هذا الطويلُ. But I'm not sure, maybe someone will confirm or correct ...





Hemza said:


> خالد هو الطويل


Selon la même logique expliqué ci-dessus, pour _"Khalid is this tall one"_, je dirais _: _خالد هذا الطويل

Mais tes solutions semblent moins lourdes et plus claires...


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## rarabara

Hi Ibn nacer,
I give the probability stating that you might be wrong in your assertion, because in that sentence هذا طويل yes طويل here is indefinite. But which of the long one? we do not that. for instance it might include some extensive properties (e.g. the tall one who is blonde or curly or who has blue eyes etc (indefiniteness might carry some extensive properties)

what is more , طويل is in normal case not a noun ,is adjective. In Turkish we grammatically accept adjectives in the form or as "noun" when they are alone. I do not know the case for arabic but under assumption , if we accept طويل as adjective then هذا should not be an adjective , should be adverb.

this was not such effective explanation ,just explains a bit of difference.

maybe ,I can give similar example here: Lesson 4 - Part 9 - Madinah Arabic
see example: هو طالب جيد this is, I think, not as same example as I was thinking but is similar.

lastly, I did not exposed to that as a case but again give the probability stating that intonation might also be effective.

more clearly these two sentences might have different meaning.(differently intonated parts  provided coloured)

هذا طويل
هذا طويل


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## Hemza

Ibn Nacer said:


> Salut,
> For _"my son is *this* tall one"_. I proposed this: ولدي *هذا *الطويلُ ...
> 
> It seems to me that the sentence ولدي هو الطويل means : _"my son is* the* tall one", right? _


Je crois qu'en français, nous n'avons pas la distinction qui existe en anglais entre le "the" et le "this", que tu fais apparaître dans tes exemples. 
*edit*: Seul le contexte permet de savoir si cela implique que c'est le seul qui soit grand (the) ou si lui et d'autres le sont potentiellement (this).


Ibn Nacer said:


> C'est-à-dire en français :_ "mon fils/garçon est le grand"... _Mais c'est vrai que le pronom de séparation هو peut ajouter de l'emphase et le sens pourrait être _"mon fils/garçon c'est le grand / celui qui est grand"._


Exactement, c'est similaire au français où l'on dirait "mon fils, c'est le grand/celui qui est grand" (accompagnée parfois par le geste pour le désigner du doigt).


Ibn Nacer said:


> Selon la même logique expliquée ci-dessus, pour _"Khalid is this tall one"_, je dirais _: _خالد هذا الطويل
> 
> Mais tes solutions semblent moins lourdes et plus claires...


Je trouve qu'avec هو c'est mieux car il s'agit d'une personne et non d'un objet. Néanmoins je ne saurais dire si les deux formulations sont correctes ou si l'une l'emporte sur l'autre.


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## Ibn Nacer

Salut,



rarabara said:


> I give the probability stating that you might be wrong in your assertion, because in that sentence هذا طويل yes طويل here is indefinite. But which of the long one? we do not that. for instance it might include some extensive properties (e.g. the tall one who is blonde or curly or who has blue eyes etc (indefiniteness might carry some extensive properties)
> ...
> more clearly these two sentences might have different meaning.(differently intonated parts provided coloured)
> 
> هذا طويل
> هذا طويل


For you, what is the meaning (in english) of هذا طويل?

Is it "this tall one" ? Or "this is tall" ? Or other ?

For me this phrase "this tall one" corresponds rather to هذا الطويل...



rarabara said:


> what is more , طويل is in normal case not a noun ,is adjective. In Turkish we grammatically accept adjectives in the form or as "noun" when they are alone. I do not know the case for arabic but under assumption , if we accept طويل as adjective then هذا should not be an adjective , should be adverb.


In Arabic, the two words هذا and طويل are nouns (ism). But here I am talking about the nature of the word and not about the grammatical function ... If we want to be more precise the word طويل is a صفة مشبهة.

The problem is that the word "adjective" can designate a category of words or a grammatical function.

- For example : هذا طويل is a (complete) nominal sentence: the demonstrative هذا is the subject (mubtada') and the word طويل is predicate (khabar) so the sentence means : "This is tall". *Subject (mubtada') and predicate (khabar) are grammatical functions*.

- But ولدٌ طويلٌ it's an adjective phrase (not a sentence) that means "_*a tall boy*_", the word طويلٌ is adjective (na'at/grammatical function) of the noun ولدٌ.

==> In both examples the word طويل is a صفة مشبهة (nature of the word) and a صفة مشبهة is a noun (ism).



rarabara said:


> maybe ,I can give similar example here: Lesson 4 - Part 9 - Madinah Arabic
> see example: هو طالب جيد this is, I think, not as same example as I was thinking but is similar.


Yes هُوَ طَالِبٌ جَيِّدٌ is a nominal sentence translated into the site like _"He is a good student"._

I would analyze it like that:

هو is the subject (mubtada')
طَالِبٌ is the predicate (khabar)
جَيِّدٌ is an adjective (na'at/grammatical function) of طَالِبٌ


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## rarabara

Ibn Nacer said:


> For you, what is the meaning (in english) of هذا طويل?
> 
> Is it "this tall one" ? Or "this is tall" ? Or other ?
> 
> For me this phrase "this tall one" corresponds rather to هذا الطويل...


I would say that depends on the prior question. For instance if the question would be something like this :
"which of the 'tall boy' did you speak with ?" (ايّ رجل  شاهدتَ بين هاؤلاء رجال طويل   ) (I wrote directly by improvisation so , the meaning might not be the exact intended meaning while the question appears clear)
then ,I would answer " 'this/the tall one' which I enjoyed his hair (blond hair) and is handsome."
but if the question is something like "is this boy tall?" (اهذا رجل طويل ?)
then your answer would be also my answer. (i.e. the intonation or in other words the aim of question is important)


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## Ibn Nacer

Ibn Nacer said:


> Ah OK thank you.
> 
> Yes you are right, for me, the structure هذا طويلٌ is not a demonstrative phrase because the word طويلٌ is undefined. For me this structure is a nominal sentence. In general, I think that the structure "a demonstrative + an indefinite noun" it is a nominal sentence not a demonstrative phrase...
> 
> I had explained that in the same message:
> 
> 
> 
> Ibn Nacer said:
> 
> 
> 
> - I think the problem is here... هذا طويل is a complete nominal sentence: the demonstrative هذا is the subject and the word طويل is predicate (khabar) so the sentence means : "This is tall".
> 
> In general (I even think it's always the case, correct me if I'm wrong), when we have "a demonstrative + an indefinite noun" it is a nominal sentence not a demonstrative phrase...
> 
> It's like these sentences :
> 
> هذا كتاب - this is a book (not "this book")
> هذا بيت - this is a house (not "this house")
> هذا ولد - this is a boy (not "this boy")
> 
> So هذا كتاب or هذا بيت or هذا ولد do not form a demonstrative phrase, if you want to form a demonstrative phrase ("this book" / "this house"/ "this boy"), add the article AL : هذا الكتاب / هذا البيت /هذا الولد
Click to expand...


Je suis tombé sur ces images (sentence Vs phrase) :


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