# Arabic names



## xinelo

Ahlan!

I'd like to ask a question about Arabic personal names, as they appear in the written media in English.

When there are only two words in the name, such as *Mahmoud* _Abbas_, *Sadam* _Hussein_, etc., I've got no doubt: the first word is the *first name*, the second word is the _last name_ or_ family name_ (I'll use format to distingish them)

However, I'm finding a lot of names with more than 2 words. 

I'll give some examples, explain what I think their structure is, ask for confirmation and still pose a doubt.1) Mustafa Ibrahim Abdel Hamid
2) Hafez Abu Seada
3) Al Sayed Muhammad Ibrahim
4) Ahmed Aboul Gheit
5) Nouri Kamal al-Maliki
6) Awad Hamed al-Bandar
7) Barzan Ibrahim al-Hassan​a) Father's name: 

I've been told that normally the word in the middle (when there's 3 words) is the father's name. So take for example names 4, 5, 6, 7. 4) *Ahmed* Aboul _Gheit_
5) *Nouri* Kamal _al-Maliki_
6) *Awad* Hamed _al-Bandar_
7) *Barzan* Ibrahim _al-Hassan_​b) Abu: 

I know 'abu' means father of and is similar to 'bin'/'ben'/'ibn' to make lastnames. Example 2 is: first name 'Hafez' + last name 'Abu Seada'. 2) *Hafez* _Abu Seada_​(Well, I think there's a difference between 'abu' and 'bin' as the former can also be used to make sort of nicknames (which aren't used after the first name) such as "Abu Mazen", but his is irrelevant for the problem in question.)

c) Compound last names ? 

I assume 'Abdel Hamid' is a compound last name, in example 1. If I'm right, then Ibrahim must be the father's name, again.1) *Mustafa* Ibrahim _Abdel Hamid_​d) Still I don't know what to think about example 3, except that the last word must be the last name. 3) Al Sayed Muhammad _Ibrahim_​Is 'Al Sayed' a first name and could it have been written with a hyphen? (Al-Sayed)

I would be very grateful if you could confirm, complete or correct my assertions. I would greatly appreciate also if you could bring to my knowledge other structures which might be used in the media in English, especially if the don't start by a first name and/or don't end by a last name! 

Shukran!! 

xinelo


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## mansio

Arabic names are a bit complicated. They originate from different sources:

1) First names (I take the examples from your list): Mahmoud, Mustafa.

2) Names of filiation: Ibn (or ben in North Africa) Saud = son of Saud (Saud being the name of the father)

3) The kunya. You call a person by the name of his first son out of politeness and respect: Hafez Abu Seada = Hafez the father of Seada.

When the person has no son then you can invent a fake kunya. The kunya is often used as a nom de guerre: Arafat was Abu Ammar and Mahmud Abbas is Abu Mazen. The Prophet Muhammad was referred to as Abu l-Qasim from the name of his deceased first son.

4) Name of place you come from: Saddam Hussein was al-Tikriti because his family came from Tikrit (north of Bagdad)

5) Name of quality or nickname: al-Hassan (the beautiful), al-Maliki (the "king")

6) Religious name: usually "servant of + one of the names of God" so Abd el Hamid (servant or slave of the Praiseworthy)

7) Some names may begin with a title like As-Sayed Muhammad Ibrahim. Sayed or sayid means lord. It is mostly used for descendants of the Prophet or people that pretend to descend from him or for important people.

The "Al" before Sayed is the article (so the name means "the lord"). It is influenced by the first consonant of Sayed. That's why it is actually as-Sayed. Some people write al Sayed, others al-Sayed, or better as-Sayed or As-Sayed. 
Actual Arabic spelling is "assayyid".

I don't know the exact explanation of the compound Mustafa Ibrahim.


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## Tajabone

Bon dia,

 A North-African counterexample:

 You always remain the "son" of someone (I'm talking of a cultural conception of filiation in North Africa). Therefore, your social identity starts with your family name (imaginary example: _Gumbri_ Farid).

 The family name in Algeria is mostly a _sui generis_ one: generally different from first names like Kamal, Farid or Aziz. This is why they are easily recognizable (e.g. Boudiaf, Lacheraf, Iguerbouchène, Allouache, etc.)

 But, when you become famous or known by the public, the "social" order of names changes: your family name comes at the end while the "individual" appears first (e.g. Mouloud _Mammeri_, Assia _Djebar_, etc.)

 In the Algerian case, the French (colonial) administration decided to give patronyms to the population, shortened to one single name.

 I didn't mention the Berber patronyms - which are numerous -starting with "Aït, Ath" and used somehow like the Celtic particules O' (the son of, the people of, etc.)

 By the way, Xinelo, it was an excellent question !


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## mansio

Tajabone said:


> In the Algerian case, the French (colonial) administration decided to give patronyms to the population, shortened to one single name.



I think that was (and maybe still is) a general occurence in all Arabic countries, not only in North Africa. Is that right?


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## xinelo

Thanks mansion, for your interesting explanation. Although it is interesting to me, it doesn't really serve my purpose, which is to know the function of each part of the name (by Western standards: first name, last name and all the rest). 

A few comments:

I understand that the names of filiation (ibn Saud), the kunya (abu Seada), the place names (al-Tikriti), the nicknames (al-Maliki) and the religious names (Abdel, which are a sort of nicknames too) all function as lastname/surname, whether or not they're shared by all the siblings in a family. Is this right? If so, that means there's no gender associated with them (except for those with bin/ibn/ben/abu, which can only be masculine).

On the other hand, I still don't know whether "Al Sayed / Al-Sayed" (pronounced As-Sayed) is a given name (and therefore Muhammad is a middle-name, a second given-name or a surname) or is a title that precedes the given name Muhammad. Maybe it used to be the latter case and now it is the former one. In any case it would be different for women, no?

Is it normal to write Al and Sayed separatedly (without a hyphen)? I mean in English, not in Arabic.

Thank you so much! xinelo


Tajabone said:


> Bon dia,



Is that supposed to be Catalan or Galizan?  


Tajabone said:


> A North-African counterexample:
> 
> You always remain the "son" of someone (I'm talking of a cultural conception of filiation in North Africa). Therefore, your social identity starts with your family name (imaginary example: _Gumbri_ Farid).



Meaning that Gumbri = surname and Farid = given name? 


Tajabone said:


> But, when you become famous or known by the public, the "social" order of names changes: your family name comes at the end while the "individual" appears first (e.g. Mouloud _Mammeri_, Assia _Djebar_, etc.)



So, this would be the case for someone who is being named in a newspaper article, wouldn't it? 


Tajabone said:


> In the Algerian case, the French (colonial) administration decided to give patronyms to the population, shortened to one single name.
> 
> I didn't mention the Berber patronyms - which are numerous -starting with "Aït, Ath" and used somehow like the Celtic particules O' (the son of, the people of, etc.)



And patronyms always come between the given name and the surname? (always referring to a name which is being quoted in the press). 


Tajabone said:


> By the way, Xinelo, it was an excellent question !



Thanks!  Ana saïd !  
xinelo


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## mansio

xinelo said:


> A few comments:
> 
> I understand that the names of filiation (ibn Saud), the kunya (abu Seada), the place names (al-Tikriti), the nicknames (al-Maliki) and the religious names (Abdel, which are a sort of nicknames too) all function as lastname/surname, whether or not they're shared by all the siblings in a family. Is this right? If so, that means there's no gender associated with them (except for those with bin/ibn/ben/abu, which can only be masculine).



As I am not acquainted with modern Arabic usage I'll let people from those countries answer you.


> On the other hand, I still don't know whether "Al Sayed / Al-Sayed" (pronounced As-Sayed) is a given name (and therefore Muhammad is a middle-name, a second given-name or a surname) or is a title that precedes the given name Muhammad. Maybe it used to be the latter case and now it is the former one. In any case it would be different for women, no?



I told you it is a title as you say "Sir" in English. There may be a feminine version of that title but I don't know.


> Is it normal to write Al and Sayed separatedly (without a hyphen)? I mean in English, not in Arabic.
> 
> Thank you so much! xinelo


I have often seen the article "al" separate from the name in other languages than Arabic. People who know it is attached to the name will put a hyphen between the two.


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## xinelo

mansio said:


> I told you it is a title as you say "Sir" in English. There may be a feminine version of that title but I don't know.



Sorry, it is much clearer now 

Thank you again. xinelo


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## palomnik

Xinelo:

Try checking out this item:

http://fsi-language-courses.com/Courses/Arabic/Saudi%20Arabic%20Basic%20(Urban%20Hijazi%20Dialect)/FSI%20-%20Saudi%20Arabic%20Basic%20Course%20(Urban%20Hijazi%20Dialect)%20-%20Student%20Text.pdf

This is in fact a PDF file of an entire manual on Saudi Arabic, but it has an appendix on proper names.  The comments, of course, may not apply everywhere but it is some solid guidance.  This manual is in the public domain and there are no restrictions on copying it.


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## xinelo

Thanks a lot palomnik, I'll have a look. 
xinelo


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## cherine

Ahlan Xinelo,
There was at least one thread about this subject, search for it maybe it can be of help.
I'll try to give some answers or comments here


xinelo said:


> However, I'm finding a lot of names with more than 2 words.





xinelo said:


> I'll give some examples, explain what I think their structure is, ask for confirmation and still pose a doubt.
> 1) Mustafa Ibrahim Abdel Hamid
> This one sounds very Egyptian  In such "serries" of names, you can consider the first name as the person's name, the second one is his father's, then his grandfather's name. There can be other grandparents (between Ibrahim and Abdel-Hamid) but I guess it's hard to know without seeing the birth certificate of Mustafa
> 
> 2) Hafez Abu Seada
> Abu Seada can be Hafez's father or grandfather.​
> 3) Al Sayed Muhammad Ibrahim
> Same thing with (1)​​4) Ahmed Aboul Gheit
> This is our (Egyptian) minister of foreign affairs. Again, we can't tell whether Aboul Gheit (or Abu'l-Gheit, or Abu el-Gheit....) is his father or grandfather. Most probably, his a grandfather, but I can't tell for sure.​
> a) Father's name:​I've been told that normally the word in the middle (when there's 3 words) is the father's name. So take for example names 4, 5, 6, 7.
> 4) *Ahmed* Aboul _Gheit_
> "Aboul" is not a name; it's أبو الغيط . So, these are only two names, not three. So it goes under your (b) category, not (a). Which is, by the way, similar to (c) : compound names. We don't call a person just "Abd", nor just "Abu" or "Ibn/Bin".​
> d) Still I don't know what to think about example 3, except that the last word must be the last name.​3) Al Sayed Muhammad _Ibrahim_​
> Is 'Al Sayed' a first name and could it have been written with a hyphen? (Al-Sayed)
> Yes. I have a colleague by that name. Usually, in Egypt, we transcribe that name السيد as El Said or El Sayed. A hyphen is important to show that "al/el" is not an independent name, but very few Egyptians notice this, so we just write such names are we're used to.
> By the way, Mansio translated it as "lord", I'd translate it as "master". And the feminine form "sayyeda" (usually without the "al") is also used in Egypt.​


Other Egyptian names : Mubarak (our president). His name is Muhammad Hosni (....) Mubarak. Usually in the newspaper, you'll see him mentioned as "Hosni Mubarak", we don't mind the "Muhammad" too much, as there are many. And sometimes, just Mubarak.
A famous Egyptian philosopher : Zaki Naguib Mahmud, is usually mentioned by his triple (?) name الاسم الثلاثي , while the custom is to use just two names (the person and his/her father or grandfather).

Unfortunately, people's names in Egypt are not as systematized as those in the other Arabic countries. So you'll have to take them just as they are given.​


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## xinelo

palomnik said:


> Xinelo:
> 
> Try checking out this item:
> 
> http://fsi-language-courses.com/Courses/Arabic/Saudi%20Arabic%20Basic%20(Urban%20Hijazi%20Dialect)/FSI%20-%20Saudi%20Arabic%20Basic%20Course%20(Urban%20Hijazi%20Dialect)%20-%20Student%20Text.pdf
> 
> This is in fact a PDF file of an entire manual on Saudi Arabic, but it has an appendix on proper names.  The comments, of course, may not apply everywhere but it is some solid guidance.  This manual is in the public domain and there are no restrictions on copying it.



Hi again!! (replying partially to Cherine also)

That book seems a great resource! Thanks a lot. In the same page there are other books in pdf, very interesting for who's learning Arabic, for example there's one which compares Levantine with Maghreb Arabic. It should be added to a resources page, if there's any in these forums.

So I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) that:

a) if a given name is mentioned, it'll always be at the beginning of the full person's name: _*Muhammad* Hasan Ahmad Al-Makkawi_

b) the family name will always be the last word of the full name, if mentioned: _Muhammad Hasan Ahmad *Al-Makkawi*_

c) there can be a number of middle names, all of which are the ascendants' (father, great father, etc.) names (patronimics), and which might optionally be preceded by bin/ben/ibn/bint: _Muhammad *Hasan Ahmad* Al-Makkawi _or _Muhammad *bin* Hasan *bin* Ahmad Al-Makkawi.
_
d) However, in some cases we can't be sure because the names in the middle might not be middle names / patronyms, but part of the compound first name or a compound family name: so B in A B C might actually be part of the compound given name A-B or the compound last name B-C, eg. A-B C or A B-C.

e) the {abu/umm + child's name} structure is used to make unofficial nicknames but, if used a lot, that nickname might lexicalize and become a surname/family which is transmitted down to the future generations as any other surname.

f) when a person is referred to by a title (eg. Mrs.) plus a name, it can either be a middle name (patronimic) and/or actually the family name. So for example, _Muhammad Hasan Ahmad Al-Makkawi_ can be further referred to as Mr. Hasan, Mr. Ahmad, Mr. Hasan Ahman, Mr. Hasan Ahmad Al-Makkawi, Mr. Al-Makkawi or Mr. Makkawi.

That's for the more traditional system, wherever they still exists. I assume that the less traditional systems are just like the Western European naming tradition.

I'll be very thankful for any comments correcting me if I understood something wrong.

Thank you very much, you're helping me a lot! :=)
xinelo


cherine said:


> Is 'Al Sayed' a first name and could it have been written with a hyphen? (Al-Sayed)
> Yes. I have a colleague by that name. Usually, in Egypt, we transcribe that name السيد as El Said or El Sayed. A hyphen is important to show that "al/el" is not an independent name, but very few Egyptians notice this, so we just write such names are we're used to.


I assume you're replying "Yes" to my 2nd question (how it can be written), not the 1st one (whether it's a first name). I udnerstand it's not a first name but some sort of title like Mr. (meaning literally Master or Lord). 

However, in the NYTimes (I can't give the urls, but trust me) I've found several names with 'al-Sayed': 

Heitham _al-Sayed_ / Mr. _al-Sayed_
Tahounet _Al Sayed_ Fabre, aka Mr. Fabre's Mill
Marwan _Al-Sayed_
Ibrahim Sharif _al-Sayed_
Al Sayed Muhammad Ibrahim
Amal _al-Sayed_
*Sayyed* Darweesh (whose surname is sometimes rendered as Darwish, and his given name as Sayid or Sayed)
Abbas _al-Sayed_
*Sayid* Haqqani
of which the only instance in which (Al-)Sayed looks like a title is the one I had already given (in red). In all other examples, it looks like a surname or a given name. 

Even if Al-Sayed means Master and is used as a title in Arabic, I find weird that a title is kept when referring to that person in English (usually the equivalent titles are given, if they exists, me thinks). This looks like a testimony of a boy in the street, so could it be that when asked about his name, the boy sayed As-Sayed too and the journalist thought this was part of his name? See the context: 


> What are people afraid of? A knock at the door, many people there said. Last month, after a group of party organizers gathered to discuss who would hold which position in the nascent organization, two men who took over leading posts were visited by state security, they said.
> “I got scared and I wanted to resign,” said one of the men, Al Sayed Muhammad Ibrahim. “I wanted to resign. I have daughters. I don’t want any problems. My daughters, my son, my wife, all asked me to resign.”



Next:


cherine said:


> El Said or El Sayed


I'm surprised to see this. I can understand ال)سيد)is transliterated in varied ways (El-Sayed, El-Sayid, Al-Sayed, Al-Sayid, As-Sayid, As-Sayed...) due to Arabic vocalism and the assimilation of the article, but I thought سعيد /said/ 'happy' was a different word, as well as a given name (Saïd). 


cherine said:


> Other Egyptian names : Mubarak (our president). His name is Muhammad Hosni (....) Mubarak. Usually in the newspaper, you'll see him mentioned as "Hosni Mubarak", we don't mind the "Muhammad" too much, as there are many. And sometimes, just Mubarak.


Ok, I understand, but if the given name (Muhammad) is dropped, the patronym (Hosni) functions as a given name? or not? Asked differently, if this was a woman, say, _Habiba Hosni Mubarak_, could you drop her given name and say _Ms. Hosni Mubarak_?

This is all, dear friends! 
Thank you so much!! xinelo​


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## cherine

xinelo said:


> I assume you're replying "Yes" to my 2nd question (how it can be written), not the 1st one (whether it's a first name). I udnerstand it's not a first name but some sort of title like Mr. (meaning literally Master or Lord).


I thought my reply was clear, I'm sorry it wasn't.
My "yes" was an answer to the first question. Yes, السيد is a guy's first name, I have a colleague whose first name is السيد just as my first name is Cherine.
Some guys are called سيد without the "al".



> Even if Al-Sayed means Master and is used as a title in Arabic, I find weird that a title is kept when referring to that person in English (usually the equivalent titles are given, if they exists, me thinks). This looks like a testimony of a boy in the street, so could it be that when asked about his name, the boy sayed As-Sayed too and the journalist thought this was part of his name? See the context: ...


Nobody thinks too much of the name's meaning. It's a name. Sayyed, Ibrahim, Hasan, Muhammad.... are names, we only think about there meaning when we stop and think, otherwise they're just names referring to people.
And if you mean by "a boy in the street", allow me to object. A boy can't have two daughters  but this is not the point here.​


> I'm surprised to see this. I can understand ال)سيد)is transliterated in varied ways (El-Sayed, El-Sayid, Al-Sayed, Al-Sayid, As-Sayid, As-Sayed...) due to Arabic vocalism and the assimilation of the article, but I thought سعيد /said/ 'happy' was a different word, as well as a given name (Saïd).


Of course they're different. But sometimes people transliterate the name سيد as Said which of couse leads to confusion. Luckily, it's not a common transliteration.


> Ok, I understand, but if the given name (Muhammad) is dropped, the patronym (Hosni) functions as a given name? or not?


More or less yes, in speech people would call each others like that. For example, Mubarak's friends would call him Hosni not Muhammad. But not in official documents. He won't drop his first given name in his ID card or his passeport.


> Asked differently, if this was a woman, say, _Habiba Hosni Mubarak_, could you drop her given name and say _Ms. Hosni Mubarak_?


A girl called Hosni would only arise laughs.
Mubarak's wife is referred to as "Mrs. Mubarak", but she's one of very few Egyptian women called by the name of their husbands. My name is Cherine M., no one would call me Miss M., they'd call me Miss Cherine. This is how women/girls are called in Egypt.


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## xinelo

Another question: Can both men and women carry matronyms or only women?

I know matronyms are rare but nevertheless they are possible.


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## cherine

Could you please tell what a matronym is ?


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## linguist786

Since this thread is about Arabic names, may I ask if anyone knows of the origins of the surname الخراشى (al-kharaashy)?

It is a surname of a friend, he is from Saudi.


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## linguist786

cherine said:


> Could you please tell what a matronym is ?


It's basically the name of somebody's mother. So a "matronymic surname" is a surname based on the name of somebody's mother.

[matro = "mater" = "mother" (Latin)]


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## cherine

linguist786 said:


> Since this thread is about Arabic names, may I ask if anyone knows of the origins of the surname الخراشى (al-kharaashy)?
> It is a surname of a friend, he is from Saudi.


I don't know its origin nor its meaning, but we have الخراشي family name in Egypt too.



linguist786 said:


> It's basically the name of somebody's mother. So a "matronymic surname" is a surname based on the name of somebody's mother.
> 
> [matro = "mater" = "mother" (Latin)]


Yes, I guessed it had to do with mother. But if you/or Xinelo mean to say that a person may have his/her mother's name or family name in that person's name, then the answer is no. At least in  Egypt. I don't have my mother's name nor her family name in my ID card; only my father's.


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## xinelo

linguist786 said:


> It's basically the name of somebody's mother. So a "matronymic surname" is a surname based on the name of somebody's mother.
> 
> [matro = "mater" = "mother" (Latin)]



Yes, matronymic names:  names derived from the mother or female ancestor (from: http://forum.wordreference.com/archi.../t-103248.html)


cherine said:


> if Xinelo mean to say that a person may have his/her mother's name or family name in that person's name, then the answer is no. At least in  Egypt. I don't have my mother's name nor her family name in my ID card; only my father's.



Yes, I know that's the normal, usual pattern, that's why I said matronyms are rare, but they do exist.

My question is whether they can be used for both men and women or only for women.

Shukran! xinelo


cherine said:


> I thought my reply was clear, I'm sorry it wasn't.
> My "yes" was an answer to the first question.


Sorry, it was my fault for asking two questions together  


cherine said:


> Yes, السيد is a guy's first name, I have a colleague whose first name is السيد just as my first name is Cherine.
> Some guys are called سيد without the "al".


Ok, understood. Perfect. 


cherine said:


> And if you mean by "a boy in the street", allow me to object. A boy can't have two daughters  but this is not the point here.​


Yes, sorry about that. I was mislead by the picture: the boy in the picture was not "the man" referred to here ​


cherine said:


> Of course they're different. But sometimes people transliterate the name سيد as Said which of couse leads to confusion. Luckily, it's not a common transliteration.


Understood.


cherine said:


> A girl called Hosni would only arise laughs.


Well, yes, but a girl called Habiba could take the name of her father as a patronymic middle name: Habiba (bint) Hosni Anysurname. Just imagine for a minute Habiba is as common as Muhammad and generally dropped (or replace it with an equivalent of Muhammad for me). If that was the case, we are left with "Hosni Anysurname". If that is laughable for a woman, either of two: either the patronymic middle name has to be dropped too or the given name can't be dropped for women.


cherine said:


> My name is Cherine M., no one would call me Miss M., they'd call me Miss Cherine. This is how women/girls are called in Egypt.


If I was a journalist and had to refer to you in my article, I couldn't write "Miss Cherine" in English (I even doubt that's grammatical). I need your surname, at least, so you'd be "Miss (Cherine) Mwhatever", wouldn't you? As far as I know, titles can't go only with a given name.

Sorry for being a bit thick (in case I am) or so insistent at least (but I want to get it right  )

Salam, xinelo


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