# Hindi, Urdu: bookshop - library



## littlepond

Is it possible to differentiate between a bookshop and a library in Hindi? For example, French has _librairie_ for bookshop and _bibliotheque_ for library.

Words like "kitaabghar", "pustakalaya", etc., are not conveying to me whether something is a bookshop and library. Of course, I am aiming to avoid an expression like "kitaaboN kii dukaan".

(Please do write in roman script for replies pertaining to Urdu, so this _naacheez_ can read.)

Thanks in advance!


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## nadim

at least in urdu, we have some words for Library like _Dar-ul-Kutub, Maktaba, Kutub Khana_, but the word library itself is most common.
to mention shop of anything, I´m afraid we don´t have any proper word in urdu, so you´ve to use the phrase KitaboN kii Dukaan, like JootoN kii Dukaan, PhaloN ki Dukaan, Kapray kii Dukaan, etc.


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## littlepond

Thanks; well, in Hindi too, there is "kitaab ghar", "pustakalaya", etc., used commonly for libraries - but why would you use words like "Kutub Khana" only for a library and not a bookshop? After all, both are _khana_s of books, isn't it?
In other words, have Urdu speakers not seen bookshops also named like "Kutub Khana", etc.? (In Hindi, I've seen some bookshops putting "pustakalya" and "kitaab ghar" in their titles.)


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## marrish

Yes, I'll answer with a picture, the transliteration is already there. But, normally _kutub-xaanah_ has both meanings of a library and a book store. It has been used for famous historical libraries as well i.e. Library of Pergamum is _kutub-xaanah-e-pargaamam_.


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## nadim

may be in old times, books were not sold (before printing press era), so mostly there were only libraries or kutub xaanah.


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## littlepond

Thanks, marrish jii: so, do we arrive at the conclusion that there are no separate words really in Hindi and Urdu usage for library and bookshop? That was my original assumption, too, but I thought that other members may be knowing words that I don't know and that are used only in one of the contexts, not both.

nadim jii, before the printing press era, I don't see how books themselves can exist. If you are referring to collections of things written on parchment, leaves, bamboo sticks, etc., then it is a repository for me rather than a library. I don't think "members" could loan a parchment or a stick of bamboo to study at their leisure in their home!


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## marrish

In Urdu _daar-ul-kutub_ is only for a library while a book-seller is _kutub-farosh_ (not a librarian).
_kutub-xaana_'s (shops) have been active in the mixed fields of publishing, library services, selling, re-selling etc. but still, _kutub-xaanah_ is associated with a library rather than a book store.


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## nadim

littlepond said:


> nadim jii, before the printing press era, I don't see how books themselves can exist. If you are referring to collections of things written on parchment, leaves, bamboo sticks, etc., then it is a repository for me rather than a library. I don't think "members" could loan a parchment or a stick of bamboo to study at their leisure in their home!


Of course they can't take them out of that place, but you are missing a point that libraries are not for lending the books, that's a place to study the books mainly. All historical libraries were used as a place to sit/study/consult the books.



marrish said:


> In Urdu _daar-ul-kutub_ is only for a library while a book-seller is _kutub-farosh_ (not a librarian).
> _kutub-xaana_'s (shops) have been active in the mixed fields of publishing, library services, selling, re-selling etc. but still, _kutub-xaanah_ is associated with a library rather than a book store.


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## marrish

littlepond said:


> Thanks, marrish jii: so, do we arrive at the conclusion that there are no separate words really in Hindi and Urdu usage for library and bookshop? That was my original assumption, too, but I thought that other members may be knowing words that I don't know and that are used only in one of the contexts, not both.
> 
> nadim jii, before the printing press era, I don't see how books themselves can exist. If you are referring to collections of things written on parchment, leaves, bamboo sticks, etc., then it is a repository for me rather than a library. I don't think "members" could loan a parchment or a stick of bamboo to study at their leisure in their home!


Yes, this is my conclusion too but with a difference. There are no words in Urdu and Hindi which can be ascribed the sole meaning of a "library" (with the exception of _daar-ul-kutub_ in Urdu, but here one might find an exception too!).

Still, Hindi _pustakaalay_ and Urdu _kutub-xaanah_ (_kitaab-xaanah_), despite being used in other meanings than "a library" (like "a publishing house", "book store"), convey the idea of a library and have been used this way.

As for the reason, I subscribe to @nadim SaaHib's remarks.


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## littlepond

Thanks a lot again, marrish jii and nadim jii. I didn't know the term _daar-al-kutub_, so I am a little bit wiser now


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## Sheikh_14

In my view and we discussed this in another thread which was focused on the Urdu word for desk I believe, that unlike Arabic which does not have any variation between the two. Maktabah is used for both library and book-store, this can most certainly change for Urdu. We have alternatives aplenty for library as you have mentioned Kutub xaanah, maktabah & Library. However, for a book-store we felt kitaab or kutub ghar whatever suits your fancy was adaquete. In fact kitaab ghar is used by some book-stores in Lahore and since it is not a word commonly used for library and connotations count, why not! Whilst for those who seek precision kitaab/kutuub dukaan as a compound rather than kitaaboN ki dukaan which is absolutely fine but the other is less cumbersome.


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## littlepond

I find "kitaab dukaan" as a very strange, inelegant and unnatural compound, at least as far as Hindi is concerned. It has to be "kitaaboN kii dukaan" in Hindi.


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## Alfaaz

Sheikh_14 said:
			
		

> Whilst for those who seek precision kitaab/kutuub dukaan as a compound rather than kitaaboN ki dukaan which is absolutely fine but the other is less cumbersome.


 I was actually thinking of asking about _kutub dukaan_, but was hesitant to ask since I guessed it might be labeled a _calque_ or _odd_...!?

However, it doesn't sound that odd if other (similar) existing Urdu compounds are taken into consideration:

کتب خانہ، کتب بین، کتب بینی، کتب میلا، وغیرہ - _kutub xaanah, kutub biin, kutub biinii, kutub melaa, waghairah_

Apart from this expression, the following could probably be used to emphasize (in light of the discussion above) the_ buying/selling of books_ (in a _bookstore_) in comparison to the _borrowing/loaning of books_ (in a _library_):

دکانِ کتب - _dukaan-e-kutub_
فروش گاہِ کتب - _farosh-gaah-e-kutub_


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## littlepond

Thank you, Alfaaz jii! Yeah, "dukaan-e-kutub" sounds much more elegant and "right" to my ears than "kutub dukaan".


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## Sheikh_14

Dukaan e kitaab or kutub is wonderful if you seek to aggrandize the establishment in question. Kitaab ghar is another one which lends itself well. As for Kutub dukaan well calques are the norm in nearly every language you could think of and you are quite right that once you do have a look at what is already present, it is merely a case of what you are used to and not what is logical. We are people and people are habitual beings after all, creatures of habit.


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## littlepond

Thanks, Sheikh jii, for your opinion.


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## Sheikh_14

There's a famous book store in Lahore by the name of Kitaab-mela. Therefore, to say either kutub-dukaan or kiyaab dukaan is odd would merely be a personal opinion and nothing beyond that. Never have I heard anyone question the authenticity of the name since it rolls out of your tongue. Nonetheless I would be interested to know what you guys think of kitaabii- do you believe it conforms more to the English word textbook I.e. A text-book example of something or do you think it's also susceptible to mean of to do with books I.e. Kitaabii dukaan? Upon reflection I would say it serves both purposes since in kitaabii chehrah and keeRaa it relates to books rather than being a bookish example. Therefore in light of that kitaabii-dukaan may suffice, besides kutub/kitaab dukaan and dukaan e kutub. In Turkish the term they use is book-house as well so kitaab-ghar is another possibility which I have seen be used for bookshops.


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