# pero, perro



## macta123

Do Perro (Dog) and Pero(But) have the same sound in Spanish?


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## argosdex

No, you roll the dog more...  I.e. the R is stronger in perro. Even if the SOUND is different it would be similar to THINK and SINK. I can't come up with an example that uses R in English.


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## Mirlo

No, "perro" has two "r's" so we roll our thong, in other words we put more emphasis in the "r's". 
Saludos


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## Manuel Herman

I think that this examples can help you:

Perro: Double "R", sounds (more or less) like the "R" in "rat" or "rocket", stronger and vibrating.

Pero: Only one "R", sounds like the "R" in "Arizona".


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## Mirlo

Manuel Herman said:


> I think that this examples can help you:
> 
> Perro: Double "R", sounds (more on less) like the "R" in "rat" or "rocket", stronger and vibrating.
> 
> Pero: Only one "R", sounds like the "R" in "Arizona".


 ​


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## Autumnsea

Manuel Herman said:


> I think that this examples can help you:
> 
> Perro: Double "R", sounds (more on less) like the "R" in "rat" or "rocket", stronger and vibrating.
> 
> Pero: Only one "R", sounds like the "R" in "Arizona".


 
Oh really? In English I can't sense the differences between the "R"s in "rat" and "Arizona" 

Any native speaker explains it?


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## nv1962

Just think about the "original series" Star Trek and good ole Scottie (RIP) rrrrrolling along: "Aye Sir, that Klingon Bird of Prey will be a *RRR*egular dumplin' when I'm done with this *RRRR*ascal of a positron inverter, Sir!"



Seriously, rrrrrrrrrrrolling r's are hard to hear in English - they simply don't exist, barring perhaps Scotland... Even so, it's rolled fairly "softly" there.

I'm afwaid it's a mattew of pwactice...


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## Mirlo

There is more emphasis in the "r" because of the pronunciation of the  word "rat" and when you say "arizona" the sound is softer.
Saludos,


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## _Izartxo_

Can any linguistic explain it? because i honestly dont see the difference. Is it a matter of allophones? the context of both Arizona and rat seems quite similar to me...Does the vibration change aswell? sounds rather rough...

Any explanation please


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## loladamore

Mirlo said:


> No, "perro" has two "Rs" so we roll our tongue, in other words we put more emphasis on the "Rs".
> Saludos


 
(Nada más un dedazo, seguramente  )

I like the idea of rolling the dog, argosdex! 

The difference between r and rr is a problem for English speakers, unless you're Scottish, as nv1962 says! There is no difference at all for most English speakers in English between the two. You can listen to some nice r and rrrrrrr sounds *here*. Examples 16 and 17 are of *pero* and _*perro*_ respectively.

RRRRRRRRRRight. Off to work!


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## Autumnsea

Mirlo said:


> There is more emphasis in the "r" because of the pronunciation of the word "rat" and when you say "arizona" the sound is softer.
> Saludos,


 
Oh I see, I can sense it now. 
But I think the difference is slim.
And the difference between 'rr' and 'r' in Spanish is huuuge


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## nv1962

In "native" and standard US English? I can't hear any significant difference, frankly, between "*r*at" and "A*r*izona".

A native Spanish speaker, however, will have a hard time resisting the temptation to roll the *r*at, because monosyllabic words starting with an r just lend themselves perfectly to it. In "Arizona" there's a simultaneous gliding transition (from the "A" to the "i", and halfway inbetween from the "r" to the "i") which makes the muscles involved more resistant (i.e., almost "too busy") to producing a nicely rolled "r". If it were "Ar*a*zona" you'd hear the r's rolling along again, as half the task is simplified (the "simple" glide from "A" to "r" to "a" again isn't nearly as complex).

If you think about the physical aspects of it, it makes perfect sense. It's a bit like trying to roll the final r in "car" - that's harder than the r in "rat" as well: in the latter, you start (ahem) on a roll...

Uh, I hope that was of any use whatsoever...


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## Masood

Mirlo said:


> No, "perro" has two "r's" so we roll our *thong*, in other words we put more emphasis in the "r's".
> Saludos


Ooo, errr...I think you meant _tongue_.


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## Mirlo

Autumnsea said:


> Oh I see, I can sense it now.
> But I think the difference is slim.
> And the difference between 'rr' and 'r' in Spanish is huuuge


yeah! you are right, but is the only way we can explain it!  ​


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## nelliot53

How about the "rr" in corrosion?


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## Mirlo

Masood said:


> Ooo, errr...I think you meant _tongue_.


 Si, "loradamore" already told me! 
​


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## loladamore

I've got some really strange images in my mind of dogs, rats and thongs being rolled...


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## Mirlo

loladamore" already told me!


Masood said:


> Ooo, errr...I think you meant _tongue_.



yes, "​


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## nv1962

Maybe some previous rolling (and subsequent lighting) of something else entirely was involved there... But it's indeed an intriguing suggestion to a roll a thong prior to bringing up canines in conversation.

(Okay I'll shaddap...)


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## loladamore

Now the images have gone from strange to downright perverse. Thanks a lot, nv1962! I think I'll go and roll something else to get over it.


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## Soy Yo

loladamore said:


> (Nada más un dedazo, seguramente  )
> 
> I like the idea of rolling the dog, argosdex!
> 
> The difference between r and rr is a problem for English speakers, unless you're Scottish, as nv1962 says! There is no difference at all for most English speakers in English between the two. You can listen to some nice r and rrrrrrr sounds *here*. Examples 16 and 17 are of *pero* and _*perro*_ respectively.
> 
> RRRRRRRRRRight. Off to work!


 
I like the idea of rolling the "thong".

Anyway, I don't see the difference in "r" in rat and "r" in Arizon either...at least not in a way that explains the difference between "r" and "rr" in Spanish.

In normal speech in the USA, we do not have the equivalent of the trilled "rr"... you hear it in opera often and in affected speech occasionally. The "r" is more like an AE "d" made by touching the alveolar ridge (I think). I make the "rr" by putting my tonuge up higher and "trilling" it. I don't know what a "phonetician" would say about this...but I deal with my "r's) reasonably well this way.

For your "rr," think of trying to make the motor sound for your toy car. Here it goes puttering along ... rrrrrrrrrrr.  In fact, pronounce "puttering" fast (AE pronunciation for the "tt"...and you can almost hear the "rr" in perro.


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## loladamore

I've just remembered a great link someone posted for pronunciation. You can listen to and look at an alveolar trill *on this page*.

[ſ] is r and [r] is 'rr'.


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## Soy Yo

nelliot53 said:


> How about the "rr" in corrosion?


 
Sounds just like the "r" caramel.


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## gotitadeleche

_Izartxo_ said:


> Can any linguistic explain it? because i honestly dont see the difference. Is it a matter of allophones? the context of both Arizona and rat seems quite similar to me...Does the vibration change aswell? sounds rather rough...
> 
> Any explanation please



As a native English speaker, I hear no difference between the _r_ in rat and the _r_ in Arizona.


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## Nicole_Jesus

Un jueguito practicar la "R" del perro.
"R con R cigarro, R con R carril, 
Rapido ruedas los carros, los carros del ferrocarril"


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## Boerboel

nelliot53 said:


> How about the "rr" in corrosion?


 
If you're asking whether ir's rolled or not, it is not.  

Yes, the Star Trek thing isn't a bad exmple.  I believe in my Spanish I book when it was teaching the pronunciation of the r's in Spanish it likened the rr and r at the beginning of the word to a "Scottish rolled r", if I remember correctly.


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## borgonyon

¿Alguien aprendió aquello de:

r con r cigarro, r con r barril, rápido giran las ruedas del ferrocarril?


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## gotitadeleche

borgonyon said:


> ¿Alguien aprendió aquello de:
> 
> r con r cigarro, r con r barril, rápido giran las ruedas del ferrocarril?



I learned it slightly different:


r con r cigarro, r con r barril, rápido, rápido ruedan los carros cargados de azucar del ferrocarril


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