# funeral pieces



## L'aura che tu respiri

Friends,

I'm trying to translate "funeral pieces" (pieces of music for a funeral service) into German.  It's very easy to say it in Italian or French -- _brani (_or_ pezzi) funebri_, _pièces funèbres_ (or _funéraires_).  However, finding a German equivalent is difficult!

"Begräbnisstücke" made sense to me; however, a Google search produced no hits for either "Begräbnisstücke" or "Begräbnis-Stücke."  I did find one hit for "Trauerstücke."  Still, there must be a better way to say it.

Many thanks!


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## Demiurg

"Stück" often means "Theaterstück". I would use "Trauermusik".


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## Robocop

Trauermusik


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## L'aura che tu respiri

I'm sorry: you cannot say "24 Trauermusik"!!!


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## L'aura che tu respiri

Demiurg said:


> "Stück" often means "Theaterstück".



The classical composers also use "Stück."  The term is not specific to the theatre.


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## Frank78

L'aura che tu respiri said:


> I'm sorry: you cannot say "24 Trauermusik"!!!



What do you mean? 24 pieces?

You can use "Stücke".

"Die CD beinhaltet 24 Trauermusikstücke". However the long compound does not sound elegant. So it would be better to write something like "Die CD beinhaltet 24 Stücke Trauermusik"


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## L'aura che tu respiri

I agree, it is very awkward.  24 "Trauerstücke" is better, but like "Begräbnisstücke" it is simply not common.  Let me make it clear: in Italian it would be _brani __funebri_ or _pezzi funebri_; in French it would be _pièces__ funèbres_ or _pièces __funéraires_.  There MUST be an unawkward way of saying that in German!  Just one or two simple words.


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## Frank78

I've never heard "Begräbnisstücke". Even google shows only a handful results.

"Trauerstücke" is a lot more common so "24 Trauerstücke" is fine. If the context is clear you can drop "Musik".

http://www.doblinger.at/Vier_Trauerstuecke.pid.65331.htm


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## Demiurg

L'aura che tu respiri said:


> The classical composers also use "Stück."  The term is not specific to the theatre.


Sure, but if you tell your friends "Gestern wurde in Berlin ein neues Stück von Karl Ranseier aufgeführt" and they don't know Ranseier is a composer most of them would think it's a theatre play.

But as Frank wrote, if the context is explicit (e. g. the cover of a music CD)  you can use "Trauerstücke".


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## Lykurg

The plural of Musik in the sense of_ piece of music_ is "Musiken", so you could use "Trauermusiken" (and I would prefer that).


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## L'aura che tu respiri

I don't want to doubt a native German speaker, however: in my years of music, I have never heard the word Musik used to mean a piece of music.  You cannot say, "Vier Musiken für Violine und Klavier."  At least, such a title would be extremely unorthodox.


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## Lykurg

The word is not used very often and even less on the internet since classical music is such a marginal phenomenon nowadays, but Trauermusik is a regular title from the 17th to 19th century (just one famous example: Mozart's Maurerische Trauermusik), and if you talk of several of these pieces, "Trauermusiken" is correct.
confer this page, this CD or this concert programme.

I agree on your point that the seperate usage as in "Vier Musiken für Violine und Klavier." would be unorthodox, though one might find examples for that, too.


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## L'aura che tu respiri

You miss my point.  I do not believe you can say, "25 Trauermusiken" for such-and-such instrument.  I am 99% sure you simply cannot say that.


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## cracken

You might need to step away from a too literal translation. 

If you need this for a CD title, you might use:

Trauermusik: 24 Stücke fuer die Oboe
Or 
Trauermusiken: Ein Sammlung 24 Stücke fuer die Orgel


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## L'aura che tu respiri

cracken said:


> You might need to step away from a too literal translation.
> 
> If you need this for a CD title, you might use:
> 
> Trauermusik: 24 Stücke fuer die Oboe
> Or
> Trauermusiken: Ein Sammlung 24 Stücke fuer die Orgel



You would never use "die" with an instrument.  And what about the "funeral" part?  I don't want this big, long, awkward thing like "24 Stücke für Orgel für die Trauergottesdienste."  "24 Orgelstücke für die Trauergottesdienste" is hardly better.  I just CANNOT BELIEVE that although you can say "24 Funeral Pieces," "24 Brani Funebri," and "24 Pièces Funèbres," in German you have to have a long, awkward sentence.


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## madsh33p

L'aura che tu respiri said:


> You miss my point.  I do not believe you can say, "25 Trauermusiken" for such-and-such instrument.  I am 99% sure you simply cannot say that.



You still haven't said what you need this translation for... depending on context, "Trauermusiken" could work.
But there is no way to know if you do not tell us what it is for.
And as cracken suggested, maybe there is no, as you put it "simple way" of expressing this in German and you have to step away from the literal translation.


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## madsh33p

L'aura che tu respiri said:


> You would never use "die" with an instrument.  And what about the "funeral" part?  I don't want this big, long, awkward thing like "24 Stücke für Orgel für die Trauergottesdienste."  "24 Orgelstücke für die Trauergottesdienste" is hardly better.  I just CANNOT BELIEVE that although you can say "24 Funeral Pieces," "24 Brani Funebri," and "24 Pièces Funèbres," in German you have to have a long, awkward sentence.



Yes you can say "die" with an instrument!


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## Lykurg

Your question has two dimensions, the scoring and the term as a superior structure.

On one hand, I wouldn't say "Musik für Klavier und Orchester", but "Trauermusik für großes Orchester" or "Abendmusik für Chor und Harfe" would definetely be a correct title. "Musik" alone is too unspecific, but as a compositum it works and is used. 

But on the other hand - as seen in _"24 __Trauermusiken __für Orgel" _- i'm not so sure whether it would fit for such a collection, since the typical Trauermusik of elder times was a singular piece (most probably a commissional work) and therefore not part of such a collection. I'm not firm enough regarding musical forms and traditions of Trauermusik to say whether some general characteristics must be fulfilled, but I doubt that the title would apply for just a series of short pieces - while it is fine for a set of individual pieces put together as on the CD I mentioned.

Have you thought about giving it in French? That would be the 19th century solution for it.


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## L'aura che tu respiri

madsh33p said:


> Yes you can say "die" with an instrument!



But who does?  In my entire life I have never seen that in a title of a piece of classical music.


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## L'aura che tu respiri

madsh33p said:


> maybe there is no, as you put it "simple way" of expressing this in German and you have to step away from the literal translation.



I find that utterly impossible to believe.  "24 Trauerstücke" has already been suggested as being not incorrect.  Grammatically I can't think of any reason why "24 Begräbnisstücke" would be "wrong," even though it would be unusual.  "24 Trauergottesdienstestücke" is probably overkill.


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## madsh33p

L'aura che tu respiri said:


> But who does?  In my entire life I have never seen that in a title of a piece of classical music.



There we go, a title of a piece of classical music! You had not specified this before. You made a general statement, which was wrong. Regarding classical music you may well be right, that is not one of my areas of expertise.
As I tried to say earlier, a bit more context would help.


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## Lykurg

This is also a question of genre. While you can easily find and perform a set of Five Dances, no concert auditorium would like to hear Twelve Funeral Pieces, one after another...


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## L'aura che tu respiri

Yes, indeed: pieces of classical music to be played at a Totenmesse (Catholic) or Trauergottesdienste (Protestant) or at a concert.


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## L'aura che tu respiri

Lykurg said:


> This is also a question of genre. While you can easily put together five dances as a set, no concert auditorium would like to hear twelve funeral pieces, one after another...



That may be true.  Even Brahms's _Elf Choralvorspiele_ are rarely played back-to-back, and they are not strictly funereal!


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## Lykurg

Exactly. And that might lead to our problem - I'd expect Trauermusik to be individual, standing on its own. So I might give that (plural) title to a collection, but not to a series.


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## madsh33p

Why can you not simply use "Trauerstücke" ?

http://www.bodensee-musikversand.de/product_info.php?products_id=109693


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## L'aura che tu respiri

I think indeed that's the best option.  However, out of curiosity, would you think that Begräbnisstücke or Trauergottesdienstestücke are at least possible?


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## madsh33p

L'aura che tu respiri said:


> I think indeed that's the best option.  However, out of curiosity, would you think that Begräbnisstücke or Trauergottesdienst*e*stücke are at least possible?



If anything, "Trauergottesdienststücke". 

I can't give you any valid reason for this, but I really don't like the sound of "Begräbnisstücke". To me it sounds macabre, but that is personal perception that would need backing up.

"Trauergottesdienststücke" sounds okay to me, but if you are using it, e.g. on a CD cover, it might be a bit long. I also think, you can drop the "gottesdienst".

My preference would be "Trauerstücke".


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## Lykurg

Trauerstücke is fine, then.

I'd never use Trauergottesdienststücke. One might expect the pieces of a service.


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## cracken

So the only remaining problem is to incorporate the "24". As madsheep said, a more detailed context would help. 

As you can see in any quick search of any music store "Trauermusik" is generally used to translate "funeral music". To classify a collection of pieces, German uses "Musik" rather that "Stuecke".  Tanz-Musik, Jazz-Musik, etc..

If you don't want to use "Trauermusik" because you need to incorporate the "24", I would suggest:

24 Stuecke der Trauer
24 Stuecke zur Trauer
24 Stuecke zur Bestattung
24 Stuecke zum Begraebnis
or similar


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## madsh33p

cracken said:


> 24 Stuecke der Trauer



That's a very good option. I think you would easily find a construction like this on a CD cover.


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## L'aura che tu respiri

What is the shade of difference in meaning, if any, between

"24 Trauerstuecke"

and 

"24 Stuecke der Trauer"

?


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## cracken

Good question. I am not sure if there is a clearly defined difference between a compound noun and the separate mention of both. It's a bit more explanatory and descriptive, especially for a headline or cover.  

By separating the nouns you give slightly more emphasis to the "Trauer" and perhaps remove a bit of the awkwardness of the rather uncommon plural "Trauerstuecke".


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