# Urdu: مربع



## Gope

In this sentence from shahaabnaamah the word  مربع seems to need another word to complete the meaning. Am I wrong?


ایک بار سربراہ مملکت نے مجھے آٹھ مربع زمین کا انعام دینے کی پیشکش کی

Thanks.


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## Cilquiestsuens

I get your point, the basic meaning of _*murabba3*_ is 'square' (as in 'square meter', 'square miles'), but in Punjab, it is first of all used as a unit of land measurement, equivalent to 24 or 25 acres, if I remember well.

Keep also in mind that these measurements can slightly vary according to local fashion.


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## Qureshpor

^ 20 marlaa = 1 kanaal
    4 kanaal = 1 bighah
   50 bigah = 1 murabba3


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## Cilquiestsuens

Thanks Qureshpor Sb.

Allow me to recap with metric equivalents:

1 marlaa  =   20.9 m2
20 marle  =   418 m2 = 1 kanaal
4 kanaal   =   1,672 m2 = 1 bighah
50 bighah =  83,600 m2 = 8.3 hectares = 20.5 acres = 1 murabba3

So it seems a murabba3 is less than what I wrote above. However, the metric equivalent for 1 *marlaa* I have given here is the one used in cities in PK (I can vouch for Punjab), I know for sure that the _*marlaa*_ used in the countryside and in villages around is bigger but I don't know precisely how.


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## Qureshpor

^ Cilquiestsuens SaaHib, you were n't far off at all. A murabba3 is 25 acres or 50 bighahs. In the distant haze of my memory, I think an acre/2 bighas is/was called a "killaa" in the Punjab.


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## marrish

Let me add that it is not only in Punjab where _murabba3_ is meant as a land measurement. It's a common word used in Urdu.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Qureshpor Sb., your memory is perfectly right. The _*killaa*_ ( كِلّا) in Punjab is eight kanaal and that corresponds to 1 acre.


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## Gope

Thanks to Cilquiestsuens SaaHib for his original observation in reply to my question. And to all who made such a banal topic so lively. Now I know also the meaning of do bighah zamiin, title of an old film!


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## Dib

^
And that title, btw, comes from the title of a very famous poem written by Tagore - "dui bigha jomi".


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## Gope

Dib said:


> ^
> And that title, btw, comes from the title of a very famous poem written by Tagore - "dui bigha jomi".



Tagore is 'incontournable' , isn't that so? Glad to have this info, Dip SaaHib!


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## Faylasoof

Gope said:


> In this sentence from shahaabnaamah the word  مربع seems to need another word to complete the meaning. Am I wrong?
> 
> 
> ایک بار سربراہ مملکت نے مجھے آٹھ مربع زمین کا انعام دینے کی پیشکش کی
> 
> Thanks.


 You are right! Something is missing and that is either the unit of measurement (meters [miiTar], yards [gaz], miles [miil] etc.) or else the 'he' at the end of murabba3 as you've seen / written it.

There is a difference between: 

مربعہ _murabba3ah_ = 25 ایکڑ (ekaR) [ 5x5 ekaR] -- used all over at least the northern regions of the subcontinent.

and

مربع murabba3 = چَوکور chaukor / چَورَس chauras

So,
aaTh murabba3 = 8 square ... meters, yards, miles, inches ??


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## Gope

Faylasoof said:


> You are right! Something is missing and that is either the unit of measurement (meters [miiTar], yards [gaz], miles [miil] etc.) or else the 'he' at the end of murabba3 as you've seen / written it.
> 
> There is a difference between:
> 
> مربعہ _murabba3ah_ = 25 ایکڑ (ekaR) [ 5x5 ekaR] -- used all over at least the northern regions of the subcontinent.
> 
> and
> 
> مربع murabba3 = چَوکور chaukor / چَورَس chauras
> 
> So,
> aaTh murabba3 = 8 square ... meters, yards, miles, inches ??



Thank you, Faylasoof SaaHib, for finally resolving this question.

In the printed book it is exactly aaTh murabba3 zamiin, whereas if it was murabba3ah it would have unambiguously and without approximate reckoning meant 25 acres, as  you have said, and as Lughat also says. I should presume the author meant murabba3ah. 
More context: the author was questioned extensively on his career by Ibne Insha, who then wrote down what the author said 'in the form of an FIR' (first information report - a police procedure), and he is reproducing what Ibne Insha wrote then.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> You are right! Something is missing and that is either the unit of measurement (meters [miiTar], yards [gaz], miles [miil] etc.) or else the 'he' at the end of murabba3 as you've seen / written it.
> 
> There is a difference between:
> 
> مربعہ _murabba3ah_ = 25 ایکڑ (ekaR) [ 5x5 ekaR] -- used all over at least the northern regions of the subcontinent.
> 
> and
> 
> مربع murabba3 = چَوکور chaukor / چَورَس chauras
> 
> So,
> aaTh murabba3 = 8 square ... meters, yards, miles, inches ??


I have to confess that I had not come across the word مربعہ before and if this dictionary is to be trusted, then it only appeared in Urdu as late as 1968!

http://www.urduencyclopedia.org/urdudictionary/index.php?title=مربعہ

We know that the term مربع for land measure has been in existence before 1968.

I believe neither a unit of length is missing (مربع گز، مربع میٹر وغیرہ) nor should there be a ہ at the end of the word مربع. 

ایک بار سربراہ مملکت نے مجھے آٹھ مربع زمین کا انعام دینے کی پیشکش کی

Once/On one occasion the Head of State offered me eight "squares" of land.

This sentence could very well be..

 ایک بار میرے ایک دوست نے مجھے دو بیگھہ زمین بطور تحفہ دینے کی پیشکش کی۔

In the first example, one murabba3 of land is one square/"strip"/"piece" of land measuring x by x (or more likely x by y when of course it won't be a "square") amounting to an area equivalent to 25 acres or 50 bighas.


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## Faylasoof

Qureshpor said:


> I have to confess that I had not come across the word مربعہ before and if this dictionary is to be trusted, then it only appeared in Urdu as late as 1968!
> 
> http://www.urduencyclopedia.org/urdudictionary/index.php?title=مربعہ
> 
> We know that the term مربع for land measure has been in existence before 1968.
> ....


 Let us stick to murabba3 and murabba3ah and not derail the thread by going into all the other land measures which are not part the query. 

The latter as a word has existed in Arabic for long and if it was borrowed as late as 1968 then it doesn't bother me and yes, land measurements are older than 1968 but that was not the point. 

If we take the traditional definitions then, _marabba3 _(leaving aside _murabba3ah_):

A square 
A square measure - which requires unit!!
A standard land square measure of 5 x5 ekaR = 25 ekaR
A stanza of poetry with four lines (which I mentioned *here*, post#12)

So going back to Gope jii's orignal point, _*aaTh murabba3*_ either needs a measure of units or else this _*aaTh murabba3*_ = 8 x 25 ekaR = 200 ekaR area of land.


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## Cilquiestsuens

I must say I completely concur with Qureshpor Sb. 

This **murabba3ah* with an added _*-ah*_ doesn't seem to be stemming from real life.

I have read numerous real estate documents in PK and never ever came across the orthography with this added -_*ah*_.

I therefore trust *murabba3*.


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## Faylasoof

Gope said:


> Thank you, Faylasoof SaaHib, for finally resolving this question.
> 
> In the printed book it is exactly aaTh murabba3 zamiin, whereas if it was murabba3ah it would have unambiguously and without approximate reckoning meant 25 acres, as  you have said, and as Lughat also says. I should presume the author meant murabba3ah.
> More context: the author was questioned extensively on his career by Ibne Insha, who then wrote down what the author said 'in the form of an FIR' (first information report - a police procedure), and he is reproducing what Ibne Insha wrote then.


 Gope jii, please see my post above (#11). If the report used _traditional terminology in writing_ then it would be _*murabba3*_ as a standard land measure making _*aaTh murabba3*_ : 8 x25 eKar = 200 ekaR!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Let us stick to murabba3 and murabba3ah and not derail the thread by going into all the other land measures which are not part the query. ..[...] So going back to Gope jii's orignal point, _*aaTh murabba3*_ either needs a measure of units or else this _*aaTh murabba3*_ = 8 x 25 ekaR = 200 ekaR area of land.


Sorry, but it is you Faylasoof SaaHib, who have brought the additional word مربعہ into the conversation. An explanation for what a مربع stands/stood for was in terms of its smaller units, I believe, relevant to the query and there is no danger of the thread being derailed because that chapter is closed.

This is what I have said in post 13 and there are no missing units.


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## Faylasoof

Qureshpor said:


> Sorry, but it is you Faylasoof SaaHib, who have brought the additional word مربعہ into the conversation. An explanation for what a مربع stands/stood for was in terms of its smaller units, I believe, relevant to the query and there is no danger of the thread being derailed because that chapter is closed.
> 
> This is what I have said in post 13 and there are no missing units.


 Thank you for your contribution QP SaaHib! Yes I brought that in and I have the prerogative of explaining various uses, traditional and otherwise, which I have above. Please read my latest post above giving the answer Gope jii was seeking.

BTW, _all discussions regarding other land measures here are irrelevant and strictly speaking off-topic_!


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> If we take the traditional definitions then, _marabba3 _(leaving aside _murabba3ah_):
> 
> A square
> A square measure - which requires unit!!
> A standard land square measure of 5 x5 ekaR = 25 ekaR
> A stanza of poetry with four lines (which I mentioned *here*, post#12)
> 
> So going back to Gope jii's orignal point, _*aaTh murabba3*_ either needs a measure of units or else this _*aaTh murabba3*_ = 8 x 25 ekaR = 200 ekaR area of land.


I agree with it. Just to let you know I found instances of both murabba3 and muraba3ah from the same author on the Net. Is _marabba3_ intentional?


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## Gope

Qureshpor said:


> I have to confess that I had not come across the word مربعہ before and if this dictionary is to be trusted, then it only appeared in Urdu as late as 1968!
> 
> http://www.urduencyclopedia.org/urdudictionary/index.php?title=مربعہ
> 
> We know that the term مربع for land measure has been in existence before 1968.
> 
> I believe neither a unit of length is missing (مربع گز، مربع میٹر وغیرہ) nor should there be a ہ at the end of the word مربع.
> 
> ایک بار سربراہ مملکت نے مجھے آٹھ مربع زمین کا انعام دینے کی پیشکش کی
> 
> Once/On one occasion the Head of State offered me eight "squares" of land.
> 
> This sentence could very well be..
> 
> ایک بار میرے ایک دوست نے مجھے دو بیگھہ زمین بطور تحفہ دینے کی پیشکش کی۔
> 
> In the first example, one murabba3 of land is one square/"strip"/"piece" of land measuring x by x (or more likely x by y when of course it won't be a "square") amounting to an area equivalent to 25 acres or 50 bighas.



You have found something interesting, Qureshpor SaaHib, and it is this: lughat says this murabba3ah appeared for the first time in 1968. Lughat also says it was in maaN jii. (That can be checked quickly since it is a short piece and as you seem to be sceptical about lughat's assertion). Now you know maaN jii was also by Qudratullah SaaHib,  who was alive in 1968, while murabba3  appears in his shahaabnaammah which was published posthumously, in 1986.  It is permissible to assume therefore that he deliberately used murabba3ah in 1968. As to murabba3 appearing in his posthumous publication, well, the publisher's editor may have had a hand in it!
Thanks for all my friends who helped with so much precise information.


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## Gope

Faylasoof said:


> Gope jii, please see my post above (#11). If the report used _traditional terminology in writing_ then it would be _*murabba3*_ as a standard land measure making _*aaTh murabba3*_ : 8 x25 eKar = 200 ekaR!


Faylasoof SaaHib, please see my reply to Qureshpor SaaHib. Thanks.


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