# Sorry I’m late, <but> my train was held up.



## VicNicSor

Sorry I’m late, but my train was held up.
Macmillan dictionary

(Sorry I’m late,) (but my train was held up.)
Sorry (I’m late, but my train was held up.) = I’m late, but (it was because) my train was held up.

Am I right?
Thanks.


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## ewie

Difficult to say, Vik ~ what exactly is your question?


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## VicNicSor

ewie said:


> Difficult to say, Vik ~ what exactly is your question?


The meaning of "but". It conveys the point that it was not my fault that I'm late, but it was because of the train. Right?


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## ewie

Yes I suppose it does (I'd never thought about it before.)


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## VicNicSor

Thank you !


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## Glasguensis

I'm not sure I agree. I don't really see any nuance between
Sorry I'm late but my train was held up.
and
Sorry I'm late. My train was held up.
I don't think the "but" conveys any real meaning : it simply serves to join the two parts of the sentence.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> it simply serves to join the two parts of the sentence.


But it should convey a meaning. Because you would definitely not use just any other connector, like _and/although/however/nevertheless/yet_/etc. instead.


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## SReynolds

In this specific case, the thing you mentioned about a word's meaning not being properly included in a dictionary kind of solves itself in an amusingly self-referential way:



> used after an expression of apology for what one is about to say.
> _"I'm sorry, but I can't pay you"_





> (spoken) used after expressions such as 'I’m sorry' and 'excuse me' to introduce a polite question, request, or statement
> 
> _"Excuse me, but is there a post office around here?"
> "I’m sorry, but all our operators are busy at the moment."_



which means merely that there's no particular reason. _But_ is the conjunction that's commonly used after apologies, probably because there's an implied list of things that you're apologizing for (I know you had to wait for hours and I didn't even call you in advance, _but_ my train got delayed).


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## VicNicSor

I'm sorry but I don't think it's the case.
After all, you could say: "*Yes*, I’m late, but my train was held up.", with "but" still conveying the same meaning. Couldn't you?


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## SReynolds

That's exactly what I said in my response. That's one of the _implied list of things that you're apologizing for_, except that in this case it's not implicit at all (I'm late, _but I'm late because my train got delayed._)

And also, that was just a theory, but the dictionary definition still stands, you're basically apologizing for being late in some sense.


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## VicNicSor

SReynolds said:


> That's exactly what I said in my response. That's one of the _implied list of things that you're apologizing for_, except that in this case it's not implicit at all (I'm late, _but I'm late because my train got delayed._)
> 
> And also, that was just a theory, but the dictionary definition still stands, you're basically apologizing for being late in some sense.


I disagree The OP, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the idea of apologizing. The "but" only goes with "I'm late", but not with "sorry". And the "sorry" goes with "I'm late", but not with the rest of the phrase.


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## Glasguensis

VicNicSor said:


> But it should convey a meaning.


Why?
The fact that you can't use a different connector (although you can use *no* connector) doesn't confer a meaning - indeed the dictionary entry quoted by SReynolds is not so much a meaning as an example of usage.


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## SReynolds

Exactly, thus _amusingly self-referential_.


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## Loob

I agree with SReynolds, and his two dictionary definitions (SR, I think the first is from Oxford Dictionaries on line, and the second from the Macmillan dictionary?)

Looking back at post 1, I'm afraid I  disagree with your suggested division of the the sentence, Vic:





VicNicSor said:


> (Sorry  I’m late,) (but my train was held up.)
> Sorry (I’m late, but my train was held up.)


The first option, for me, is the one that merits the tick.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> (although you can use *no* connector)


Using no connector definitely implies the reason for being late: Sorry I'm late. (that's because) My train was held up. With or without "but", the speaker uses an excuse for being late. The but just emphasises it. Do you agree?


Loob said:


> I agree with SReynolds, and his two dictionary definitions


A question -- what do you think the OP speaker is apologizing for -- being late or the train being held up?


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## Loob

VicNicSor said:


> A question -- what do you think the OP speaker is apologizing for -- being late or the train being held up?


Being late.


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## VicNicSor

Loob said:


> Being late.


That's why I disagreed with Reynolds


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## Loob

VicNicSor said:


> That's why I disagreed with Reynolds


I'm sorry, Vic, I don't follow.


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## VicNicSor

I meant -- if you agree that the speaker in the OP is apologizing for being late, then I'd have expected you to agree that the "I'm sorry, but ......." pattern doesn't work in the OP, because it conveys, in my opinion, an absolutely different idea.


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## Loob

I think everybody in this thread agrees that the speaker is apologising for being late.

What the dictionary definitions are saying is that apologies are commonly followed by the conjunction "but".  That may not be logical, but it's true.  The sentence quoted in post 1 has an apology followed by the conjunction "but", so it's in line with the definitions.


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## VicNicSor

As I belive, the OP and Reynolds's examples have only one thing in common -- the presense of the word "sorry". But the pattern is different, and that's what matters:
used after an expression of apology for what one is about to say.
_"I'm sorry, but I can't pay you"_
Apologizing for what is put after the but.
While in the OP the apologizing is for what is put before the but. To me, this is essential.


Loob said:


> That may not be logical, but it's true


But the way -- it's absolutely the same in Russian, the same polite thing.


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## tomtombp

If we must find a function for "but", I'm with Vic here. I think I understand his point. By adding implied parts, most apologies can be changed to the format that follows the OP. "But" is followed by an explanation/excuse in all of them.

I'm sorry (for disappointing you), but (for whatever reason, which is not your business) I can't pay you.
Excuse me (for asking a stranger), but (I need to know if) is there a post office around here?
I’m sorry (we can't answer your call), but (the reason is) all our operators are busy at the moment.


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## RM1(SS)

I fail to see a difference between tomtom's examples and the OP....


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## VicNicSor

RM1(SS) said:


> I fail to see a difference between tomtom's examples and the OP....


There is one. An essential one. In the OP, the part that follows the but is just an excuse for being late. Could be omitted. In tomtom's examples, what follows the but is the reason for the apology. Couldn't be omitted.


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## tomtombp

VicNicSor said:


> There is one. An essential one. In the OP, the part that follows the but is just an excuse for being late. Could be omitted. In tomtom's examples, what follows the but is the reason for the apology. Couldn't be omitted.



I disagree. The part that follows "but" is the excuse/explanation in both my examples and the OP. It's another question if they carry an important message in my examples, actually the point of those sentences. The reason you're apologizing for is in the first pair of parentheses in my examples.

Vic, I just wanted to defend your point of view and wrote these examples to show you were right. And if I understand RM1(SS) he meant to be with you too. I may be confused though.


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## Loob

Vic, your post 21 gave me one of those  moments!

The pattern in SR's dictionary definitions is different from that in the OP.  It's the difference between:
_(a) I'm sorry, *but* I'm going to be late_
and
_(b) I'm sorry I'm going to be late, *but* my car's broken down.
_
In (a) the *but* introduces the reason for saying "I'm sorry"; in (b) the *but* introduces the reason for the lateness.

That said, I still disagree with the way you divided the sentence in the OP.


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## tomtombp

Loob said:


> That said, I still disagree with the way you divided the sentence in the OP.



Me too.

(I'm sorry (I'm late)) but (my explanation/reason/excuse is) my train was held up.

Your apologizing for being late and your excuse is the train was held up.

Excuse me (for asking a stranger), but (I need to know if) is there a post office around here?

Your apologizing for asking a stranger and your excuse is you must find out if there's a post office nearby.

How could "is there a post office around here" be a reason for apologizing, as you stated in your post #24, Vic?


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## VicNicSor

Tomtom, my point is I don't think of the OP as the typical apology like in your examples, but just "extended" one. And I don't like the idea of inserting the parenthesis in the sorry-but sentences. (usually I like inserting implied parts, but not now)
I'm sorry, but I can't pay you.
Excuse me, but is there a post office around here?
I’m sorry, but all our operators are busy at the moment.
They are complete sentences. The essential information follows the BUT, the "I'm sorry" is just a polite introducing of the information.

The OP: Sorry I’m late, but my train was held up.
Here, the "sorry" is not a polite introducing of the information, but genuine apology for being late. The reason for being late may or may not be uttered.



Loob said:


> That said, I still disagree with the way you divided the sentence in the OP.


Sorry (I’m late, but my train was held up.)

I meant the two parts in the parenthesis contrast with each other: I’m late vs my train was held up. And they have nothing to do with the "sorry":

A: Where've you been for so long, you jerk?
B: Sorry, I’m late, but my train was held up.
B: Hey, cut it out! I’m late, but my train was held up!

A: Do you realize you're late?
B: So what? Yes, I’m late, but my train was held up!

I mean to say that in all these sentences, the BUT works in the same way. Am I right?


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## Glasguensis

As in the other thread, you seem to be upset that a dictionary has one listing when in your head you see two distinct variations. Let me paraphrase the dictionary: we use "but" as a connector to give further details in a sentence when apologising. When you write your dictionary you are welcome to divide this into a) to add details of why we're sorry and b) to add details of how this state of affairs came to pass. Since it is perfectly clear to us native speakers that "but" is the word we use after "I'm sorry", we don't worry about this distinction.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> As in the other thread, you seem to be upset that a dictionary has one listing when in your head you see two distinct variations.


Not at all. Dictionaries already have more than one listing, and one of them is:
used when you are saying sorry about something
• I'm sorry but I can't stay any longer. 
(OALD)

That's a special use of "but" in apology phrases, which I'm still sure is not the case in the OP. Loob agreed.

But could you answer the question in #28:


VicNicSor said:


> I mean to say that in all these sentences, the BUT works in the same way. Am I right?


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## Glasguensis

I didn't understand the question. All what sentences, and the but works in the same way as what?

We will never see it the same way as you, because our neural network programming tells us that "but" is the word which best matches the sentence based on the millions of sentences we've heard. We have not consulted a dictionary and we have not learned some grammatical rule.


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## SReynolds

Glasguensis said:


> We will never see it the same way as you, because our neural network programming tells us that "but" is the word which best matches the sentence based on the millions of sentences we've heard. We have not consulted a dictionary and we have not learned some grammatical rule.



I think VicNicSor is quite familiar with the fact that _but_ is used in this manner after apologies. What he doesn't understand is _why_ it's used this way. I've managed just fine without knowing the particular reason and I don't think anyone should care either.

An intuitive and statistical approach will always reign supreme over any grammar rule or dictionary definition you could learn. Instead of trying to find an answer to every single little problem and overyanalyzing the simplest of sentences, try to embrace these differences and accept them as fact. If I resorted to grammars and dictionary definitions to confirm every single choice I make when I'm talking to someone (whether it be in English, Hungarian or German), I probably wouldn't utter a single sentence for the rest of my life and go insane in a few months.

Unless you're trying to write a grammar, you don't have to (_factually_) know everything about the syntax and the morphology of the languages you speak.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> I didn't understand the question. All what sentences, and the but works in the same way as what?



I meant this:


VicNicSor said:


> Sorry (I’m late, but my train was held up.)
> I meant the two parts in the parenthesis contrast with each other: I’m late vs my train was held up. And they have nothing to do with the "sorry":
> 
> A: Where've you been for so long, you jerk?
> B: *Sorry,* I’m late, but my train was held up.
> B: *Hey, cut it out!* I’m late, but my train was held up!
> 
> A: Do you realize you're late?
> B: *So what? Yes,* I’m late, but my train was held up!
> 
> I mean to say that in all these sentences, the BUT works in the same way. Am I right?


Compare, the opposite case:
A: Can I see Natalie?
B: *I'm sorry* but she's away from her desk.
B: *Shut up,* but she's away from her desk.
B: *Cut it out,* but she's away from her desk.
The last two sentences (and any other ones) don't make sense without "I'm sorry", because "I'm sorry/Excuse me but" is a unit, pattern. And it's different from the OP. Do you agree?


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## SReynolds

Why would it be different? If you _really_ want to look at this from a syntactic perspective, the fact that there's a subordinate sentence introduced by _but_ doesn't mean you can't have other subordinate clauses:

_(I'm) sorry_
_(that) I'm late_​_but my train was held up._


Spoiler



[code]
  ________________________________________________________________________________________
1 |                                                                            |          |                                                
1 CJT:cl                                                                       CO:conj    CJT:cl                                            
1 |______________________                                                      |          |______________________                          
2 |          |          |                                                      |          |                     |                          
2 Sron     P:v        Cs:g                                                   |          S:g                   P:g                        
2 |          |          |___________                                           |          |___________          |______________________    
3 |          |          |          |                                           |          |          |          |          |          |    
3 |          |          H:adj      D:cl                                        |          Dron     H:n        D:v        H:v        D:adv
3 |          |          |          |_________________________________          |          |          |          |          |          |    
4 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |    
4 |          |          |          SUB:conj   Sron     P:v        Cs:adj     |          |          |          |          |          |    
4 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |    
  I_         _m         sorry      that       I_         _m         late       but        my         train      was        held       up

[/code]


_
(I'm) sorry_
_but my train was held up._​


Spoiler



[code]
  ____________________________________________
1 |                                |          |                                                
1 CJT:cl                           CO:conj    CJT:cl                                            
1 |______________________          |          |______________________                          
2 |          |          |          |          |                     |                          
2 Sron     P:v        Cs:adj     |          S:g                   P:g                        
2 |          |          |          |          |___________          |______________________    
3 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |    
3 |          |          |          |          Dron     H:n        D:v        H:v        D:adv
3 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |    
  I_         _m         sorry      but        my         train      was        held       up    
[/code]



_I'm late
but my train was held up._


Spoiler



[code]
  ____________________________________________
1 |                                |          |                                                
1 CJT:cl                           CO:conj    CJT:cl                                            
1 |______________________          |          |______________________                          
2 |          |          |          |          |                     |                          
2 Sron     P:v        Cs:adj     |          S:g                   P:g                        
2 |          |          |          |          |___________          |______________________    
3 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |    
3 |          |          |          |          Dron     H:n        D:v        H:v        D:adv
3 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |    
  I_         _m         late       but        my         train      was        held       up    
[/code]



_I'm sorry,
I'm late
but my train was held up._


Spoiler



[code]
  _____________________________________________________________________________
1 |                                |                                |          |                                                   
1 CJT:cl                           CJT:cl                           CO:conj    CJT:cl                                               
1 |______________________          |______________________          |          |______________________                             
2 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |                     |                             
2 Sron     P:v        Cs:adj     Sron     P:v        Cs:adj     |          S:g                   P:g                           
2 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |___________          |______________________       
3 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |       
3 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          Dron     H:n        D:v        H:v        D:adv   
3 |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |          |       
  I_         _m         sorry      I_         _m         late       but        my         train      was        held       up       
[/code]



I can't see how any of these sentences differ from one another. In the last case, the _I'm sorry_ part can be ignored as it doesn't effect the syntax of the final sentence at all.

(Edit: added some parse trees for clarity.)


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## tomtombp

SReynolds said:


> An intuitive and statistical approach will always reign supreme over any grammar rule or dictionary definition you could learn. Instead of trying to find an answer to every single little problem and overyanalyzing the simplest of sentences, try to embrace these differences and accept them as fact. Unless you're trying to write a grammar, you don't have to (_factually_) know everything about English syntax.



 Would it have any benefit if your or my theory/justification was confirmed by the majority of forum members. No. Nothing practical. Language is for communication not for analysis. It can't be described scientifically. It would be against its pure nature. It does not follow scientific rules. The way it evolves has mostly subjective elements. 

I have always wondered why you, Vic always want to explain every little commas, every little linking and filling words. Having a strong technical background I also tend to overanalyze everything, so I partly understand you but I think unless you have a specific reason, like the one SReynolds mentioned, it's pointless to scientifically analyze languages and it takes a lot of effort with no return.


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## VicNicSor

Guys, please, I asked a (repeated) specific question: in #33, there're sentences with pink parts in it. Two of them are marked as incorrect. The rest are correct. Do you agre with that?


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## Glasguensis

I agree that your pink sentences with the cross are not good English, although I don't see what that proves. I personally see no reason to distinguish the use of "but" in "Sorry I’m late, but my train was held up." and "I'm sorry but she's away from her desk". Clearly you do, and unless we decide to collaborate on compiling a dictionary I don't think it really matters whether we agree.


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## SReynolds

I do, but I don't get the whole thing about _I'm sorry_ and _Excuse me_ being a pattern. It's not, _but_ can follow similar clauses with no difference in meaning.

[cross-posted]


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> I agree that your pink sentences with the cross are not good English, although I don't see what that proves.


And the four pink sentences without the cross do work. Well, to me it proves a lot

Reynolds, I'm sorry but I don't follow your spoilers.

Thank you, all !


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## Glasguensis

Only two of the pink sentences without a cross contain "but", and one of those is from the dictionary. I'm glad that proves something to you though.


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## VicNicSor

I don't understand what you mean, they all contain BUT:
A: Where've you been for so long, you jerk?
B: *Sorry,* I’m late, but my train was held up.
B: *Hey, cut it out!* I’m late, but my train was held up!

A: Do you realize you're late?
B: *So what? Yes,* I’m late, but my train was held up!

I mean to say that in all these sentences, the BUT works in the same way. Am I right? Compare, the opposite case:
A: Can I see Natalie?
B: *I'm sorry* but she's away from her desk.


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## Glasguensis

*Sorry,* I’m late, but my train was held up.
*Yes,* I’m late, but my train was held up
*I'm sorry *but she's away from her desk.

I see all of these as being the same use of but.

*Hey, cut it out!* I’m late, but my train was held up! I don't think anyone would say this. Without any apology or acknowledgement it seems as if the but is being used to introduce a new subject, as in "I'm late but I brought you a donut".


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> Without any apology or acknowledgement it seems as if the but is being used to introduce a new subject, as in "I'm late but I brought you a donut".


They both work in a similar way, to me. Both "but I brought you a donut" and "but my train was held up" are said to _soften/make up for _the being late. When the listener hears "but I brought you a donut"/"but my train was held up", s/he is supposed to be less upset/angry. The but contradicts with "I'm late" and I believe it doesn't matter what it follows -- "Sorry", or "Yes" or something else...

Longman:
but
2. used to introduce a statement that *explains why* the thing you have mentioned did not happen or is not possible: 
I’d like to go but I’m too busy. 
They would have married sooner, but they had to wait for her divorce.

I guess that's almost exact definition -- "but my train was held up" is the reason for being late. And the BUT introduces it.
*I’m late*, but my train was held up ~ *I was going to make it*, but my train was held up...


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## Glasguensis

I'm afraid not.
2. used to introduce a statement that explains why the thing you have mentioned did *not *happen or is *not *possible:
In your example the train being late is why he *was *late, not why he was *not *late

Please note that my only reason for quoting a dictionary is to correct your understanding of it. As I have said time and again, dictionaries do not define words such as "but", they merely document *some* of the more common usages.


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## JulianStuart

Glasguensis said:


> I'm not sure I agree. I don't really see any nuance between
> Sorry I'm late but my train was held up.
> and
> Sorry I'm late. My train was held up.
> I don't think the "but" conveys any real meaning : it simply serves to join the two parts of the sentence.


I don't think I've learnt anything from this thread other than this.
The "but" joins two statements. Its absence neither enhances nor diminishes the extent of the apology.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> 2. used to introduce a statement that explains why the thing you have mentioned did *not *happen or is *not *possible:
> In your example the train being late is why he *was *late, not why he was *not *late


That's exactly why I said "that's *almost exact *definition", and changed "I'm late" into "I was going to make it" (= the reason why I did *not* make it). But anyway you agree that "but my train was held up" is the *reason *for being late. That's, to me, what makes this Longman's definition work in the OP, unlike this Longman's one:
12. spoken used after expressions such as ‘Excuse me’ and ‘I’m sorry’: Excuse me, but I’m afraid this is a no-smoking area.


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## Loob

Vic, as I said in post 26, I agree that there are two different patterns involving _apology_ _+ "but"._

For native English speakers, the use of "but" feels the same in both patterns - as others have said.

Maybe the difficulty here arises from the fact that Russian would use different conjunctions in the two patterns? _(Apologies: my Russian is rudimentary....)_


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## VicNicSor

Loob said:


> Maybe the difficulty here arises from the fact that Russian would use different conjunctions in the two patterns? _(Apologies: my Russian is rudimentary....)_


Well, maybe it's just me, but yes, I would not say the OP in Russian. I'd say either: "Sorry I’m late. My train was held up." or "Sorry I’m late, but that's because my train was held up."


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## siares

Loob said:


> For native speakers, the use of "but" feels the same in both patterns





VicNicSor said:


> you agree that "but my train was held up" is the *reason *for being late.


I think that's the case, in my language too, but, in the second pattern a 'but' at the same time subtly the reason diminishes the responsibility - it discounts the sorry.
I am sorry for X - but X was unavoidable. (As anybody could clearly see from the excellent reason I've just given you. It would be unreasonable to be upset over something unavoidable, right?)
I am sorry I beat you senseless, but I had a bad day.


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## JulianStuart

Glasguensis said:


> I'm not sure I agree. I don't really see any nuance between
> Sorry I'm late but my train was held up.
> and
> Sorry I'm late. My train was held up.
> I don't think the "but" conveys any real meaning : it simply serves to join the two parts of the sentence.





JulianStuart said:


> I don't think I've learnt anything from this thread other than this.
> The "but" joins two statements. Its absence neither enhances nor diminishes the extent of the apology.





VicNicSor said:


> Well, maybe it's just me, but yes, I would not say the OP *in Russian. I'd say* either: "Sorry I’m late. My train was held up." or "Sorry I’m late, but that's because my train was held up."


Bbbbut this is English Only.  We all have to "unlearn" some aspect of our native language when we try to learn a new one.  Arguing with native speakers because their language has different structures than your own is futile  (I can't imagine learning to speak as precisely in a language that does not use articles, for instance saying things like "But in English I'd say this, so i  Russian it ought to be like that...")


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## VicNicSor

JulianStuart said:


> "But in English I'd say this, so i Russian it ought to be like that..."




Note, I didn't mean anything like that at all, I just answered Loob's question. No matter how I would say this in Russian, I just tried to understand the usage of it in English and I didn't bring up the topic of the native language.


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## Loob

VicNicSor said:


> Well, maybe it's just me, but yes, I would not say the OP in Russian. I'd say either: "Sorry I’m late. My train was held up." or "Sorry I’m late, but that's because my train was held up."


Ah - in English, we'd readily reduce your second sentence to "Sorry I’m late, but that's because my train was held up."


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## VicNicSor

Loob said:


> Ah - in English, we'd readily reduce your second sentence to "Sorry I’m late, but that's because my train was held up."


So probably would we, in Russian, but, I personally, not so readily. As I said, it may be just me, I just feel this way. But there definitely would be nothing wrong saying this.


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## Glasguensis

VicNicSor said:


> No matter how I would say this in Russian, I just tried to understand the usage of it in English


There is nothing to understand. The word we use in this situation is "but". The other situations where we also use "but" have no relevance, and nor do the other situations where we use another word. That's just the way it is - in this situation we use the word "but". Whether another language uses three different words in different variants of the situation, or whether the equivalent word doesn't exist, we use "but" in English.


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## Englishmypassion

VicNicSor said:


> They both work in a similar way, to me. Both "but I brought you a donut" and "but my train was held up" are said to _soften/make up for _the being late. When the listener hears "but I brought you a donut"/"but my train was held up", s/he is supposed to be less upset/angry.


No, the "but" in "I'm sorry but my train was late" is a *justifying* "but" that *gives justification *for being late, while the "but" in "I'm late but I brought you a donut" simply introduces a new subject -- it doesn't justify the speaker's being lete.


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## VicNicSor

Englishmypassion said:


> while the "but" in "I'm late but I brought you a donut" simply introduces a new subject -- it *doesn't justify the speaker's being lete*.


It, as I said, makes up for the speaker's being late. If it was just a plain introducing of a new subject, the following ones would go:
I'm late but I learnt your wife left you.
I'm late but I'm going to Paris next weekend.
I'm late but could you lend me $200?


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## JulianStuart

Still the same "but" in those examples, _but_ with different words around them.


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## VicNicSor

Yes, the same "but", but this 'but' doesn't make sense in these three sentences.


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## Glasguensis

I can think of contexts where each of these examples would make sense and the but would be justified. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.


That there is no logical connection between "I'm late" and "I learnt your wife left you/I'm going to Paris next weekend/Сould you lend me $200?". On the face of it, at least. While the connection between "I'm late" and "I brought you a donut" is obvious.


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## Glasguensis

Yes, but so what? I've already said that I can create a context where it would make sense, and in that case it would be the same usage of "but". Clearly if it doesn't make any more sense than "I'm late but red hat banana" then the justification for the use of but is academic.


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## VicNicSor

I think I'm misunderstood a bit. I have always agreed that the buts themselves in "I'm sorry but ......", and "I'm late but ........." are the same. But the uses are different. I just find the fact _that dictionaries use different definitions for these two instances_ justified.


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## Glasguensis

Once again, these are not "definitions", they are examples of usage. When we use the word, we do not have the dictionary definitions in mind. Indeed, it would be impossible in my case, because I have never looked at them, far less memorised them. We use the word because we believe it fits the situation. Dictionaries artificially group situations into categories in the way that botanists categorise plants or etymologists categorise insects. I personally don't really care if the fly trying to eat my cake is this variety or that variety - to me it's just a fly.


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## VicNicSor

Yes, of course, a native speaker feels their native language, and doesn't need in dictionaries or grammar sources. I'm sure I know all those grammar terms for English much better than for Russian. Because I don't need them in Russian but do in English.


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## SReynolds

VicNicSor said:


> Yes, of course, a native speaker feels their native language, and doesn't need in dictionaries or grammar sources. Because I don't need them in Russian but do in English.



This is simply wrong. There's a clear difference between things that the critical period affects (syntax, morphology and phonetics) and things that it doesn't. Vocabulary is one of those things that are completely unaffected by the critical period. You can easily learn new words as long as you have an intuitive knowledge of the grammar. If I create two new irregular verbs (flol, flel, flollen) and (paikt, paikt, paikt) and I know how verbs work in English (that's the part that prevents learners who learn languages later in life from using a foreign language properly), I will be confident that the sentence:

_If I flel the car today, I would have paikt the engine_.​
is perfectly grammatical. (Also, Colorless green ideas sleep furiously - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). This is why changes that affect the _grammatical category_ of a word are often far more difficult for people to accept than a new definition (_because_ + noun).

Vocabulary on the other hand, is purely a matter of statistical analysis. It's a matter of usage and that usage does not stem from some sort of intangible thing that learners don't possess. When the internet became widespread, everyone started saying "you can find us _at_ www.mycompany.com" because speakers have been using _at_ to refer to regular addresses for centuries. When you're writing, the reason you choose certain words over others is the fact that you've heard other people using the same word in a similar situation. It's that simple. If you've heard _I'm sorry but I brought you donuts._ and _I'm sorry but my train way delayed._ or something similar fifty times, you'll probably choose _but_ over anything else. This, combined with your knowledge of grammar, allows you to utter a sentence that's understandable to everyone. If this was an innate skill that you only possessed until a certain age, people wouldn't be able to use new words that they learn in their adult years properly.

Using a word or expression incorrectly in a language is probably the biggest tell-tale sign that you did not grow up in a country where that language was spoken (aside from grammatical mistakes and having an accent) -- not because you made a grammatical mistake (that's what people commonly associate with _English_ as a concept, e.g.: lol I can't even English), but because anyone who's been exposed to that kind of input for a long enough period of time would know how those expressions are used in practice.

Your problem is not that you can't use conjunctions properly (that would be a thing that not being a native speaker could affect), you just can't seem to accept that people are coming up with new and creative ways to use language on a daily basis and that not everything that's _said_ by folks is necessarily going to be in a dictionary. The only job of a dictionary is to _try to_ explain how speakers use words. Consequently, no dictionary can have everything there is to know about a word in it.


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## VicNicSor

Thank you everyone!


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