# grandchild, grandparent



## Welsh_Sion

I recently had to translate the above into my mother tongue of Welsh. We don't have these terms so I had to refer to the equivalent of grandson/grand-daughter' and 'grandmother/grandfather.' Similarly for 'grandchildren' they would be 'grandsons and grand-daughters' and 'grandparents' who are 'grandmothers and 'grandfathers'. Is it only English which has the special non-sex related terms '-child' and '-parent' in this case?

(Incidentally, North Welsh uses different terms for 'grandfather' ('taid') and 'grandmother' ('nain') from Southern Welsh. These being 'tad-cu' and 'mam-gu' respectively in the South.)

Thanks for any comments.


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## apmoy70

Greek does have sex-related terms for the grandparents, and the grandchildren (since Greek is one of the languages in the IE family that has the nouns endings change accoring to gender, it's almost impossible to have non-gender related nouns):
Grandparents: *«Παππούδες»* [paˈpu.ðes] (masc. nom. pl.) --> lit. _grandfathers_ (if a group has mixed gender, the masculine form is used for the collective plural, since antiquity), for its etymology check further below.
Grandchildren: *«Εγγόνια»* [eŋˈgɔ.ɲa] (neut. nom. pl.), or *«εγγονοί»* [eŋ.gɔˈni] (masc. nom. pl.), for its etymology check  below.
Grandfather: *«Παππούς»* [paˈpus] (masc.) < Byz.Gr. masc. noun *«πάππους» páppous * (idem) < Classical masc. noun *«πάππος» pắppŏs* (masc.) --> _grandfather, ancestor_, which is onomatopoeic, a reduplicated nursery word.
Grandmother: *«Γιαγιά»* [ʝaˈʝa] (fem.) which is a reduplicated nursery word (dialectal variants *«νόννη»* [ˈnɔ.ni] (fem.), *«νόνα»* [ˈnɔ.na] (fem.), *«λαλά»* [laˈla] (fem.), *«μάμμη»* [ˈma.mi] (fem.) etc).
In ancient Greek it was *«μάμμη» mắmmē* a nursery word, from reduplicated *«μάμμα» mắmmă* (fem.) and hyporistic *«μαμμίᾱ» mămmíā* (fem.) --> _mother, mother's breast_.
Grandson: *«Εγγονός»* [eŋ.gɔˈnɔs] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«ἔγγονος» éngŏnŏs* (idem), which is the compound of the prefix & preposition *«ἐκ» ĕk* + masc./fem. *«γόνος» gónŏs* with assimilation; «ἔκγονος/ἔγγονος» literally means _offspring_.
Grand-daughter: *«Εγγονή»* [eŋ.gɔˈni] (fem.) which is the modern feminine form of «εγγονός».
In ancient Greek both grandson and grand-daughter were *«ἔγγονος» éngŏnŏs* as it's a noun of the 2nd declension, which means it has identical masculine & feminine forms.

Edit: Adding parents:
Parent(s): *«Γονέας»* [ɣɔˈne.as] (masc. nom. sing.), *«γονείς»* [ɣɔˈnis] (masc. nom. pl.) < Classical 3rd declension deverbative noun *«γονεύς» gŏneú̯s* (masc. nom. sing.), *«γονέως» gŏnéōs* (masc. gen. sing.), *«γονῆς/γονεῖς» gŏnês* or *gŏneî̯s* (masc. nom. pl.) < Classical deponent v. *«γίγνομαι» gígnŏmai̯*.


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## Yendred

In French:

*grandparents:*
_le grand-parent, les grands-parents
le grand-père, les grands-pères
la grand-mère, les grand(s)-mères _(but not _les grandes-mères_  )

*grandchildren:*
_le petit-enfant_(*)_, les petits-enfants 
le petit-fils, les petits-fils
la petite-fille, les petites-filles_

(*) The singular, although correct, is not so common, as it can be easily confused with "_petit enfant_" (without hyphen) = _little child_.
For singular, we prefer to use _petit-fils_ and/or _petite-fille_.


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## Welsh_Sion

So … Greek doesn't have 'grandparent' or 'grandchild' (like Welsh) and French is identical to English (with the proviso that 'petit-enfant' is rare).

Correct? 

Thanks for the help so far.


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## Yendred

Welsh_Sion said:


> and French is identical to English (with the proviso that 'petit-enfant' is rare).



and "_a *grand*child_" is not "_un grand-enfant_"  but "_un *petit*-enfant_",
although "_a *grand*parent_" is indeed "_un *grand*-parent_" 

By the way, about English and French, I don't know where these words (with _grand _or _petit _prefixes) come from, as Latin words have nothing to do with them (_avus/avia, nepos/neptis_).
Spanish is closer to Latin (_abuelo/a, nieto/a_), I guess Italian must be as well.
What about German?


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## apmoy70

Welsh_Sion said:


> So … Greek doesn't have 'grandparent' or 'grandchild' (like Welsh) and French is identical to English (with the proviso that 'petit-enfant' is rare).
> 
> Correct?
> 
> Thanks for the help so far.


Greek doesn't have 'grandparent', it does have 'grandchild' well it's not grandchild per se, it's 'offspring'. The word for grandchild/-children is different from the person's offspring (if you know what I mean  no pun intended)

Edit: Ah, I see what you mean, yes the word for grandchild is either grandson or grand-daughter, you're right


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## Yendred

apmoy70 said:


> Grandson: *«Εγγονός»* [eŋ.gɔˈnɔs] (masc.) < Classical masc. noun *«ἔγγονος» éngŏnŏs*



This word is cognate with French _engendrer_ (to breed), through Latin _ingenerare_.
_γόνος, gene, gonade, generation_, and equivalent cognates seem to all come from an Indo-European root: _gen _(= to bear)


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## AndrasBP

Welsh_Sion said:


> Is it only English which has the special non-sex related terms '-child' and '-parent' in this case?


*Hungarian*, although completely unrelated, is like English in this respect: 
we use the word "*nagyszülő*" for "grandparent" (nagy = big/great, szülő = parent, from the verb "szül" = to give birth) and
*unoka *(a Slavic loanword) for "grandchild".


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## Welsh_Sion

Yendred,

Thanks for your commentary. I hope you didn't misunderstand me when I rather lazily used the words 'identical to English'. What I meant was, that like English, there is an equivalent for 'grandchild' (= 'petit-enfant') and an equivalent for 'grandparent' ( = 'grand-parent'). However, we are also agreed that 'petit-enfant' is actually rare in French.

Welsh words for the 'grand-(+ family member)' and the French 'petit(e)-(+ family member)' also are standalones in the way Spanish and Latin are (i.e. no prefixes). You have already met 'taid/tad-cu' for 'grandfather' and 'nain/mam-gu' for 'grandmother'. Now meet, 'Grandson' who is '[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ŵyr' and 'Grand-daughter' who is 'wyres'.

Again​, there is no 'common' plural (i.e. 'grand-children'): 'wyrion' (if all 'grandsons'), 'wyresau' (if all 'grand-daughters') and 'wyrion a wyresau' (for 'grandchildren' of both sexes).[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As for 'gen' to bear, no need to go into exhaustive detail for English, but 'geni' is Welsh for 'to be born' and our passive construction is:

'Cefais fy ngeni' - Received-I my birthing = I was born.[/FONT]


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## symposium

Italian is the only language that I know that makes no difference between grandchildren and nephews/nieces. We only have the word nipote/nipoti for all of them. Of course, this can often lead to confusion, or at least uncertainty; in that case, we have to specify "nipote di nonno (grandfather's nipote = grandchild)" or "nipote di zio (uncle's nipote = nephew/niece)". Sometimes we say "She's his nipote" and of course they may ask "Is he her grand-dad or her uncle?" to which we answer accordingly...


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## Yendred

symposium said:


> Sometimes we say "She's his nipote" and of course they may ask "Is he her grand-dad or her uncle?" to which we answer accordingly...



Cool 😁


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## Dymn

As far as I know, there are no (colloquial) genderless family terms in either Catalan or Spanish. As with all other things in Romance languages, the masculine gender is used as a default:

*Catalan*
grandparents: _avi (m), àvia (f), avis (pl)_
parents: _pare_ (_m_), _mare (f), pares (pl)_
children: _fill (m), filla (f), fills (pl)_
grandchildren: _nét (m), néta (f), néts (pl)_
siblings: _germà (m), germana (f), germans (pl)_
cousins: _cosí (m), cosina (f), cosins (pl)_
etc.

*Spanish*
grandparents: _abuelo (m), abuela (f), abuelos (pl)_
parents: _padre_ (_m_), _madre (f), padres (pl)_
children: _hijo (m), hija (f), hijos (pl)_
grandchildren: _nieto (m), nieta (f), nietos (pl)_
siblings: _hermano (m), hermana (f), hermanos (pl)_
cousins: _primo (m), prima (f), primos (pl)_
etc.


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## Awwal12

Welsh_Sion said:


> I recently had to translate the above into my mother tongue of Welsh. We don't have these terms so I had to refer to the equivalent of grandson/grand-daughter' and 'grandmother/grandfather.' Similarly for 'grandchildren' they would be 'grandsons and grand-daughters' and 'grandparents' who are 'grandmothers and 'grandfathers'. Is it only English which has the special non-sex related terms '-child' and '-parent' in this case?
> 
> (Incidentally, North Welsh uses different terms for 'grandfather' ('taid') and 'grandmother' ('nain') from Southern Welsh. These being 'tad-cu' and 'mam-gu' respectively in the South.)
> 
> Thanks for any comments.


Russian generically uses "grandsons" (pl. внуки - vnúki) for "grandchildren" (as long as their gender doesn't matter), and has no non-descriptive word for grandparents at all (прародители - prarodíteli - actually means just "ancestors", and it's a rather bookish word).


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## Yendred

Awwal12 said:


> has no non-descriptive word for grandparents at all



Except "дедушка и бабушка"...


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## Awwal12

Yendred said:


> Except "дедушка и бабушка"...


Of course. That is what I call "descriptive" (i.e. "a grandfather and a grandmother"). The point, however, is that there is no collective term for these.


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## jazyk

*Portuguese*:
grandparents: _avô (m), avó (f), avós (pl)_
parents: _pai_ (_m_), _mãe (f), pais (pl)_
children: filho _(m), filha (f), filhos (pl)_
grandchildren: _neto (m), neta (f), netos (pl)_
siblings: irmão_ (m), irmã (f), irmãos (pl)_
cousins: _primo (m), prima (f), primos (pl)_
etc.

The cool thing is that os avôs, os being the masculine plural definite article, means the grandfathers, whereas os avós refers to the grandparents. If you say as avós, with the feminine plural definite article, it is the grandmothers.


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## Sardokan1.0

*Italian*
grandparents: _nonno __(m), nonna (f), nonni (pl)_
parents: _padre _(_m_), _madre (f), padri/madri (pl)_
children: _figlio __(m), figlia (f), figli (pl)_
grandchildren: _nipote __(m), nipote (f), nipoti (pl)_
siblings: _fratello __(m), sorella (f), fratelli (pl)_
cousins: _cugino __(m), cugina (f), cugini (pl)_


*Sardinian*
grandparents: _yàyu __(m), yàya (f), yàyos (pl) (many people use "nonnu or nonna", from Italian, while in Sardinian they mean "godfather, godmother", from Greek "νονός • nonós")_
parents: _babbu _(_m_), _mama (f), babbos/mamas (pl)_
children: _fizu __(m), fiza (f), fizos (pl)_
grandchildren: _nepode __(m), netta (f), nepodes/nettas (pl)_
siblings: _frade __(m), sorre (f), frades/sorres (pl)_
cousins: _fradíle __(m), sorrasta (f), fradíles/sorrastas (pl)_ (we also use to say _"hermane primarzu_" = first/primary cousin; clearly derived from Spanish)


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## Awwal12

(I have to note that the original point of this thread was *not* to list terms for grandparents in all possible languages.)


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## Olaszinhok

Sardokan1.0 said:


> parents: _padre _(_m_), _madre (f), padri/madri (pl)_



You've forgotten *genitori /parents *


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## Welsh_Sion

Спасибо, Awwal12.

I'm not here to moderate this, but interesting as all the other terms are, and I'm sure we are learning a lot from the posts, my initial question was quite limited in scope.


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## KalAlbè

Welsh_Sion said:


> Is it only English which has the special non-sex related terms '-child' and '-parent' in this case?



*Haitian Creole:*
Grandparents: _Granparan_ from French (_les) grands-parents_
Grandchildren: _Pitit pitit_ (lit. small small)
Grandson: _pitit pitit gason_ (lit. small son, as _pitit gason_ is son)
Granddaughter: _pitit pitit fi_


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## Zareza

*Romanian*
1.
*bunici = *grandparents
*bunic*, bunic*i* =  grandfather, grandfathers (M sg., pl.) - *doi bunici* tiner*i*= two young grandfathers
*bunică*, bunic*i* = grandmother, grandmothers (F sg., pl.) - *două bunici* tiner*e*= two young grandmothers

(< *bun *(= good) + *-ic* / *-ică* = diminutive suffix with affective-appreciative nuance)

2.
*tata-mare* (father-big) = (familiar) grandfather
*mama-mare* (mother-big) = (familiar) grandmother

3.
*tataia* = (familiar) grandfather
*mamaia* = (familiar) grandmother

4.
*tata-moșu'* / *moșu' *(father-old man / old man) = grandfather

2., 3. & 4. are used mostly in the rural area. The plural is not in use, in fact it barely exists in dictionaries.



symposium said:


> Italian is the only language that I know that makes no difference between *grandchildren* and *nephews/nieces*.


It is the same in Romanian.

*nepot, nepoți *(M sg., pl.)
*nepoată, nepoate *(F sg., pl.)


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## bibax

Czech uses the prefix *pra-* (prapra-, praprapra-, ..., praprapraprapraprapraprapra-  , etc.), cf. Russian *пра*родители /*pra*rodíteli/.

rodiče (masc.) = parents, Rus. родители /rodíteli/;
*pra*rodiče = grandparents (děd + bába = grandfather + grandmother);
*prapra*rodiče = great-grandparents (*pra*děd + *pra*bába = great-grandfather + great-grandmother);
*praprapra*rodiče = great-great-grandparents (*prapra*děd + *prapra*bába);
...
Note: unlike in English the number of *pra-*'s does not correspond ;

As for grandchildren, we use generally vnuci (= grandsons, like in Russian), *pra*vnuci = great-grandsons, etc.
We rarely say *pra*děti (= grandchildren, děti = children), it's probably a calque.


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## nimak

In *Macedonian* it is same or similar with Russian and Czech.

There is a "collective" word for _parents_ only, but not for _grandparents_.

*parents* = *родители* (roditeli) lit. *rodi*(_verb; "gave birth"_)*-tel*(_deverbative nominalizing suffix_)*-i*(_suffix for plural_)
*grandparents* = *баба и дедо* (baba i dedo) _"grandmother and grandfather"_
*grandsons; nephews* = *внуци* (vnuci)

*"ancestors"* = *прародители* (praroditeli)
*great-grandparents* = *прабаба и прадедо* (prababa i pradedo) "_great-grandmother and great-grandfather_"
*great-grandsons; great-nephews* = *правнуци* (pravnuci)

*great-great-grandparents* = *прапрабаба и прапрадедо* (praprababa i prapradedo) "_great-great-grandmother and great-great-grandfather_"
*great-great-grandsons; great-great-nephews * = *праправнуци* (prapravnuci)

The versions with *пра-* (pra-) can be also spelled like, for example: пра-правнуци, пра-пра-внуци etc.

мајка (majka) "_mother_"; татко (tatko) "_father_"; баба (baba) "_grandmother_"; дедо (dedo) "_grandfather_"


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## kaverison

In Tamil, we don't have separate gender neutral word for Grandparents or Grandchildren. So, our usage is similar to Welsh in this sense.

We have gender specific words - 
தாத்தா - thaththa = grandpa,  பாட்டி - paatti = grandma, 
பேரன் - pEran = grandson, பேத்தி - pEtthi = grand daughter

We always use thaththa, paatti = grandpa/grandma, pEran/pEththi = grandson/grand daughter to mean grandparents, grandchildren.

---------------------------------------

As an aside, pEran/pEththi literally means that which bears the name (of grandpa/ma). That used to be the tradition to name a grandson with Grandfather's name and Grand Daughter with Grandma's name.

In modern terms, we use a word பேரக் குழ்ந்தைகள்/பேரப்பசங்க - pErak kuzhandhaikaL/pErappasanga = name bearing (Grand) child to give a gender neutral meaning
pasanga is a colloquial form for paiyankaL - boys, but as used is becoming gender neutral term.

In Tamil, parents are referred as,

அப்பா - appaa, தந்தை/தாதை - thanthai/thaathai = Father
அம்மா - ammaa, ஆத்தா - aaththaa, தாய் - thaay  = mother

I think, the word for grandpa - தாத்தா - thaththa comes from thaathai thathai = father's father.
I am still trying to figure how the word Paatti for Grandma came.

Other forms lead to other local words for grand parents (in various dialects in Tamil)
அம்மம்மா - ammammaa and so on - mother's mother
அப்பம்மா, அப்பத்தா - appaththaa and so on - father's mother

In Modern Tamil, we have a common word for parent - பெற்றோர் - petROr - those who gave birth

மூதோர் mUthOr, மூத்தோர் mUththOr - elders
முன்னோர் - munnOr = ancestors

Son is (aaN - ஆண்) piLLai - பிள்ளை (colloquially பிள்ள - piLLa 
and daughter is peN - பெண் (colloquially பொண்ணு - poNNu) (sometimes referred as peN piLLai - பெண் பிள்ளை). 
So, often we use piLLai, peN (பிள்ளை, பெண்) to refer children (as in offspring)

The more I write, I see such twin/couplet or multiple words are very common in Tamil.

I can't stop wondering about the Romanian words.


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## Piloto80

Irish also has gender neutral terms for these, Welsh_Sion.

*grandparents:*
_seantuismitheoir, seantuismitheoirí (nominative single and plural respectively)
seanathair, seanaithreacha (grandfather/grandfathers)
seanmháthair, seanmháithreacha (grandmother/grandmothers)

The prefix "sean-" equates to old and would be cognate with "hen" in Welsh._

*grandchildren:*
_garpháiste, garpháistí (grandchild/grandchildren)
garmhac, garmhic (grandson/grandsons)
gariníon, gariníonacha (granddaughter/granddaughters)

The prefix "gar-" equates to close/near._


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