# ما زال / لا يزال　‎



## Granola

Hi,

To translate into MSA: "I still understand it" as in "I haven't studied math in a long time, but I still understand it"...could you write:

لا أزال أفهمها

Thank you!!


----------



## shafaq

Yes ! We can !
And ما زات فاهمها  is an other way to say it .


----------



## intelli78

shafaq said:


> Yes ! We can !
> And ما زات فاهمها  is an other way to say it .



Yes, but you've got a typo. ما زلت أفهمها. In my experience, it's actually more common to use the past tense with this expression. Though, Granola, your formulation with the present tense is also correct.


----------



## Granola

Thank you!


----------



## shafaq

Still it isn't a typo. From an other side; your version too is valid.


----------



## intelli78

Hi shafaq,

So you are using the إسم الفاعل in conjunction with a possessive pronoun to indicate you are the "understander of it?" Is there a grammatical or stylistic reason to use this construction instead of the مضارع?


----------



## shafaq

In Arabic,  إسم فاعل  is being used as present tense in MSA and every day colloquial. Like these:
I am waiting for you أنا منتظرك .
I am calling you  أنا نادي لك .
I am coming (to) you أنا جايي لك  .
Are you seeing me        أنت شايفني ?.


----------



## Mahaodeh

Don't depend on that, it has no temporal aspect, the temporal aspect depends on context (which is also true in fus7a): 
أنا جاي مبارح = I came yesterday
أنا كنت جاي وما شفت حدا = I came yesterday ....
أنا جاي من مبارح = I came since yesterday
أنا جاي هلأ/هسة = I'm coming now
أنا كنت جاي بس غيرت رأيي = I was going to come but .....
أنا جاي بكرة = I'm going to come tomorrow


----------



## Sidjanga

Hi all,

I've come across this phrase quite a few times now, but I have the impression I don't really understand its usage yet.

So my questions are:

- Am I right to understand that ما زال basically means "to continue (being)"?

- Is there a particular reason why the verb زال is negated through ما to express a positive meaning?
(I.e., could you just as well substitute ما زال with a verb that simply means "to continue" and express basically the same, or not really?)

- In what kind of context is ما زال preferably used?

- And last but not least: Is it possible to use لا زال instead?

Also, I would greatly appreciate a few enlightening sample sentences. 

Thanks.


----------



## AndyRoo

Hello there, 

ما زال ,لا يزال.and لم يزل (lam yazal) all mean "still" (literally "doesn't cease" or "didn't cease").

Examples: 
لا يزال سعيدًا or ما زال سعيدًا he is still happy
لا يزال يفعله he is still doing it.




Sidjanga said:


> Is it possible to use لا زال instead?


 
لا زال seems wrong grammatically (because لا usually negates a present tense verb), but I have seen it before as well as the also grammatically unusual ما يزال .


----------



## WadiH

Sidjanga said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've come across this phrase quite a few times now, but I have the impression I don't really understand its usage yet.
> 
> So my questions are:
> 
> - Am I right to understand that ما زال basically means "to continue (being)"?



Yes, but more specifically, you should view it as fulfilling the function of the English word "still," as in: "Ahmad is still at work," "He is still a student," "We are still simple people," etc.

ما زال أحمد في العمل
ما زال طالباً
ما زلنا شعباً بسيطاً



> - Is there a particular reason why the verb زال is negated through ما to express a positive meaning?
> (I.e., could you just as well substitute ما زال with a verb that simply means "to continue" and express basically the same, or not really?)



I don't think there is such a word.  The words for "remain" such as بقي and ظل don't work because those are in the "perfect" tense, meaning that the act of "remaining" was accomplished and things might have already changed.  To use in example, I can say ظل محمد وحيداً في البيت, but that doesn't mean he is _still_ there; it only means he remained there for some time.  If you use the imperfect tense, e.g. يظل محمد وحيداً في البيت, the sense is that it is his habit to stay at home alone,not that he went home and is still there right this moment.

Further to that point, there are a number of synomyms for ما زال in Arabic, and they all use the same negation structure:
ما برح
ما انفكّ
ما فتئ

Even in modern vernacular dialects that no longer employ this type of word, the function is not fulfilled by a perfect verb but rather by expressions that mean "until now," e.g. إلى الحين or لسّة (a contraction of إلى الساعة).



> - And last but not least: Is it possible to use لا زال instead?



This is commonly heard in my dialect, and I say it too sometimes, but technically speaking I think it's incorrect (it's certainly not acceptable in writing).  You use لا only with the imperfect tense: لا يزال (though ما يزال is also correct).

Speaking of the imperfect tense, today ما زال and لا يزال/ما يزال are used interchangeably, even in MSA.  This was not the case in Classical Arabic, where the imperfect tense was used to indicate not only that something is _still_ the case, but that will also remain so in the future.  An example would be the following hadith:
لا تزال طائفة من أمتي ظاهرين على الحق لا يضرهم من خذلهم حتى يأتي أمر الله و هم كذلك


----------



## Sidjanga

Many thanks for your comprehensive replies and illuminating examples!

Just one more question:
Is it possible that many people perceive ما زال to be one word and thus write it like this: مازال ?

I found quite a few more entries in Google for "مازال مريضا" than for "ما زال مريضا" - checking the results to the respective last page, that is).


----------



## WadiH

Sidjanga said:


> Many thanks for your comprehensive replies and illuminating examples!
> 
> Just one more question:
> Is it possible that many people perceive ما زال to be one word and thus write it like this: مازال ?
> 
> I found quite a few more entries in Google for "مازال مريضا" than for "ما زال مريضا" - checking the results to the respective last page, that is).



Yes, I think that's possible.  In North Africa, I believe it has become مزال _mzel_.


----------



## Sidjanga

Hi again,





AndyRoo said:


> لا يزال سعيدًا or ما زال سعيدًا he is still happy
> لا يزال يفعله he is still doing it.





Wadi Hanifa said:


> "Ahmad is still at work," "He is still a student," "We are still simple people," etc.
> 
> ما زال أحمد في العمل
> ما زال طالباً
> ما زلنا شعباً بسيطاً


So if ما زال ,لم يزل and لا يزال are all used interchageably today and as such all seem to refer to the present, how do I refer to the past and say things like
_
He was still happy. - We were still simple people.  - He was still doing it_?


----------



## AndyRoo

Hello there,

I think you can just put كان in front of all the examples and it becomes "was still doing".

e.g.

كان لا يزال سعيدًا or كان ما زال سعيدًا he was still happy
كان لا يزال يفعله he was still doing it.

Also, sometimes you don't need the كان at all and you just know from context that it is the past tense rather than the present.


----------



## cherine

Sidjanga said:


> So if ما زال ,لم يزل and لا يزال are all used interchageably today and as such all seem to refer to the present, how do I refer to the past and say things like
> 
> _He was still happy. - We were still simple people. - He was still doing it_?


As AndyRoo said, use the verb كان and I think لا is the حرف النفي to use in this case:
كان لا يزال سعيدًا
كنا لا نزال أُناسًا بُسَطاء
كان لا يزال يفعل ذلك


----------



## DarrenLamb

How would you negate 'ma zaal' ? Say you wanted to say 'I still dont remember' or 'I still dont go to school.' The logical way would be to say 'zilt ma afham' or 'zilt ma aroo7 elmadrasa' but i feel this is wrong. Could someone shed some light?


----------



## Mahaodeh

In the example you gave you are not negating ma zaala, you are negating what follows it. You would say: ما زلت لا أفهم.


----------



## DarrenLamb

How would you say 'I will still ....' ? Would you put the future tense on the verb and keep ma zilt? 

So 'I will still give it to you' for example would be 'ma zilt ba3a6eek iyyah' (b being the future tense marker, 7a3a6eek in other dialects I supose).


----------



## clevermizo

DarrenLamb said:


> How would you say 'I will still ....' ? Would you put the future tense on the verb and keep ma zilt?
> 
> So 'I will still give it to you' for example would be 'ma zilt ba3a6eek iyyah' (b being the future tense marker, 7a3a6eek in other dialects I supose).


 


_b-_ is not the standard future tense marker; it's the future tense marker in some dialects.

I'm not sure what you mean by using the verb أعطى. The expression ما زال means "still" in the sense of continuing. However:

"I will still give it to you"  *≠* "I will continue giving it to you."

So this is a different "still" in English. "I will still give it to him" means "I will give it to him, despite X" (where X is some circumstance). 

This I would translate as:

بالرغم عن س (ذلك، هذا الأمر، إلخ) سأعطيك إيّاه

This is a good example about how context and idiomatic usage is important. There won't be a single one-to-one translation for "still" since it has more than one usage.

However, using "still" in the sense of ما زال in the future could be a sentence like:

I will _still_ be studying Arabic next year.
(Next year I will continue my studies; I will not cease my studies.)

This I would translate without a future tense marker as:

لا أزال أدرس اللغة العربية السنة القادم

or:

I will still be working at this company next year.

لا أزال أعمل في هذه الشركة السنة القادم

To me it's appropriate enough to use لا أزال　here. Remember that literally the verb زال　means to vanish or cease to be. So you're saying "I will not cease to be working at this company next year." This doesn't make as much sense with the verb to give as "I will not cease to be giving it to him" except under special context I suppose.

Let's see what the native speakers here think of my suggestions .


----------



## DarrenLamb

Interesting stuff. I only used b- for future tense as it is what I am used to using in Oman. But as for the sentences I supose you could say batimm بتم  or baDHall بضل , although these carry the meaning 'I will keep on doing...' so I'm not sure if the meaning is the same as "I will still...'


----------



## clevermizo

DarrenLamb said:


> Interesting stuff. I only used b- for future tense as it is what I am used to using in Oman. But as for the sentences I supose you could say batimm بتم  or baDHall بضل , although these carry the meaning 'I will keep on doing...' so I'm not sure if the meaning is the same as "I will still...'



Again, it depends on context:

"I will still give it to him" (No matter what you say, I'm going to give it to him)

is not the same "still" as:

"I will still be in school here next year." (I'm in school here now and I'll continue to be next year as well)


----------



## DarrenLamb

I think 'I will still give it to him' can have two meanings though. As you said it could mean, 'Despite X, I will still give it to you' or 'I will still give it to you next year.' I dont see how using the verb أعطى differs from using any other verb. 



So both presumably would be translated as follows:

1) bil-raghm 3an X sa36eek iyyah
2) la azaal a36eek iyyah il-sana il-jaaya


----------



## DarrenLamb

Also for the second sentence would it better to say:

ما بزال اعطيك إياه 
This way it is clearly expressing the future as 'ma azaal' simply means 'I don't cease' rather than 'I won't cease' although in Arabic the future needn't always be expressed.


----------



## clevermizo

DarrenLamb said:


> Also for the second sentence would it better to say:
> 
> ما بزال اعطيك إياه
> This way it is clearly expressing the future as 'ma azaal' simply means 'I don't cease' rather than 'I won't cease' although in Arabic the future needn't always be expressed.



You are trying to use the Omani dialect you're familiar with, but is in fact the expression ما زال　used in this dialect in the first place? 

It's a standard Arabic expression, though it does occur in some dialects (and not all). In some dialects I think it has become a frozen particle (مزال　or لا زال or مازال) that is no longer conjugated for person, but I'm not 100% sure about this.

After a little digging on the Internet it seems in standard Arabic at least, the expression ما زلت، ما زال، ما زالت　إلخ.　is fairly frozen in its tense, so for the future you would say ما زلت سأذهب. For example, here I found:




> *أنا ما زلت سأذهب وألعب فى البطولات الأصغر، فى بطولا الماسترز التى يجب أن  نلعب بها *




س is of course the future marker in standard Arabic. In Omani I'm not sure, but maybe it would be as your original suggestion of putting the ب　on the word أعطيك. Again, it depends on whether they even use ما زال　in this dialect.
 



Moderator's Note:

This thread has been merged from a previous one on the same topic and seems to be more or less one coherent discussion. I recommend any current posters to the topic to check back through the posts as there may be interesting information from thread with which it was merged.

Regards,

clevermizo
Moderator.


----------



## DarrenLamb

Sorry I meant to say ما سأزال in that second sentence.

What I've come across in colloquial speech before is 'ma zilt' rather than 'ma azaal.' With the former having the meaning 'I am still.' So it's obviously derived from 'zaal.' 

eg) 'ma zilt 6aalib' rather than 'ma azaal 6aalib.' 

This is why I didn't know how the future would be formed in this instance, as this verb doesn't behave like other verbs and is a fixed expression as you said.

So in MSA one would say the following to mean 'I will still study' correct?

ما زلت سأدرس 

If this is the case I'm pretty sure the Omani version would be the same with the 'b' marker rather than the 's.' 

Anyway thanks for your help!


----------



## clevermizo

DarrenLamb said:


> So in MSA one would say the following to mean 'I will still study' correct?
> 
> ما زلت سأدرس



I think so, but I'm not entirely certain.


----------



## MarcB

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Yes, but more specifically, you should view it as fulfilling the function of the English word "still," as in: "Ahmad is still at work," "He is still a student," "We are still simple people," etc.
> 
> ما زال أحمد في العمل
> ما زال طالباً
> ما زلنا شعباً بسيطاً
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there is such a word.  The words for "remain" such as بقي and ظل don't work because those are in the "perfect" tense, meaning that the act of "remaining" was accomplished and things might have already changed.  To use in example, I can say ظل محمد وحيداً في البيت, but that doesn't mean he is _still_ there; it only means he remained there for some time.  If you use the imperfect tense, e.g. يظل محمد وحيداً في البيت, the sense is that it is his habit to stay at home alone,not that he went home and is still there right this moment.
> 
> Further to that point, there are a number of synomyms for ما زال in Arabic, and they all use the same negation structure:
> ما برح
> ما انفكّ
> ما فتئ
> 
> Even in modern vernacular dialects that no longer employ this type of word, the function is not fulfilled by a perfect verb but rather by expressions that mean "until now," e.g. إلى الحين or لسّة (a contraction of إلى الساعة).
> 
> - And last but not least: Is it possible to use لا زال instead?
> This is commonly heard in my dialect, and I say it too sometimes, but technically speaking I think it's incorrect (it's certainly not acceptable in writing).  You use لا only with the imperfect tense: لا يزال (though ما يزال is also correct).
> 
> Speaking of the imperfect tense, today ما زال and لا يزال/ما يزال are used interchangeably, even in MSA.  This was not the case in Classical Arabic, where the imperfect tense was used to indicate not only that something is _still_ the case, but that will also remain so in the future.  An example would be the following hadith:
> لا تزال طائفة من أمتي ظاهرين على الحق لا يضرهم من خذلهم حتى يأتي أمر الله و هم كذلك


also used in Yemen see http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1044362&highlight=la+zal


----------



## إسكندراني

I think you guys are missing something; I think it goes something like:
I will keep on studying لن أزل أدرس
I will still study لا أزال سأدرس
I am still studying لا أزال أدرس
I was still studying لم أزل أدرس


----------



## clevermizo

إسكندراني said:


> I think you guys are missing something; I think it goes something like:
> I will keep on studying لن أزل أدرس
> I will still study لا أزال سأدرس



"I will keep on studying" and "I will still study" in many contexts mean more or less the same thing. Do you think that لن أزال أدرس and لا أزال سأدرس have more or less the same meaning in Arabic? (Also, لن takes الفعل المنصوب and not الفعل المجزوم, right?)



> I am still studying لا أزال أدرس
> I was still studying لم أزل أدرس


But all three لا أزال أدرس and ما زلت or لم أزل أدرس can be used to mean "I am still studying", no? At least that's how I've seen it. If anything لا أزال sounds like it has some present-to-future implications. ما زلت أدرس would perhaps be the most common (modern) way. I'm not sure how to say "I was still studying" but maybe it's the same, just the rest of the context makes it clear. For example:

"I started studying Arabic at 6 o'clock, and I was still studying Arabic at 8 o'clock when you called."

بدأت أدرس اللغة العربية الساعة السادسة (مساءًا) وما زلت أدرسها (؟) الساعة الثامنة عندما اتصلت بيّ

Is that right? But also note:

بدأت دراساتي اليوم الساعة الثامنة (صباحًا) وما زلت أدرس الآن.

Please correct my sentences as necessary .

Shouldn't ما زلت and لم أزل mean the same thing? Or is it a question of popular usage? I rarely see لم أزل in modern text.

I sometimes fumble over these aspects of grammar in Fuṣħa because I'm so used to easily using the word لسّة in colloquial which can be used in a variety of contexts simply.


----------



## cherine

Hi,

Did anyone mention سأظل in this thread? Isn't it easier than the other structures?


----------



## clevermizo

cherine said:


> Hi,
> 
> Did anyone mention سأظل in this thread? Isn't it easier than the other structures?



I think it may have been mentioned. For the future tense I think this definitely is an easier way to go about it. Like I said before there won't necessarily be an exact equivalent of English "still" in all cases and "I will still be studying" means the same thing as "I will continue to study."


----------



## WadiH

إسكندراني said:


> I think you guys are missing something; I think it goes something like:
> I will keep on studying لن أزل أدرس



Maybe.  Never heard it before.



> I will still study لا أزال سأدرس



Never heard this either.



> I am still studying لا أزال أدرس



I think in Classical Arabic, this means "I am studying and will continue to study in the future" (see the hadith example I cited above).



> I was still studying لم أزل أدرس



This is the same as ما زلت أدرس, which means "I _am _still studying".


----------



## DarrenLamb

Ok so how would you say this, preferably in dialect?

"Even if I take a break now, I will still study later."

رغم اني ارقد تو ، ما زلت بدرس في ما بعد ?
رغم اني ارقد تو ، ما بزال ادرس في ما بعد ?
(the b- in these sentences refers to the future tense)

I feel as though if ظل was used here it would convey a different meaning, certainly in English. I'll keep on studying vs I will still study


----------



## rayloom

لم يزل and ما زال mean something persisted in the past, commonly associated with something that indicates the stopping of the action.
لم يزل يذاكر حتى جاء وقت الاختبار

لا يزال and ما يزال mean something persisting in the present, started probably in the past and continuing probably into the future.

لن يزال is quite rare, but it does occur in Classical Arabic literature, it means something that will start in the future and persist. Also commonly associated with something that will stop the action.
لن تزال طائفة من أمتي على الحق منصورة , لا يضرهم من خالفهم حتى يأتي أمر الله 
لن يزال المؤمن في فسحة من دينه ما لم يصب دماً حراماً


----------



## DarrenLamb

But would you not say 'ma zilt 6aalib' to mean 'I'm still a student?' 

By the way I'm referring to dialect rather than MSA. The past tense seems to be fixed, even to express things that haven't ceased to be, such as in my example.


----------



## rayloom

DarrenLamb said:


> But would you not say 'ma zilt 6aalib' to mean 'I'm still a student?'
> 
> By the way I'm referring to dialect rather than MSA. The past tense seems to be fixed, even to express things that haven't ceased to be, such as in my example.



I should've specified that I meant with actions. Even in actions, meanings can change depending on the context.
Regarding dialects, maa zilt and maa azaal are both rarely used.


----------



## DarrenLamb

So in dialect how would you normally express this meaning? Both with actions and non-actions?


----------



## rayloom

DarrenLamb said:


> So in dialect how would you normally express this meaning? Both with actions and non-actions?



Well depends on the dialect. Quite commonly للساعة, or a variation of it, is usually used.
للساعُه طالب he's still a student
للساعُه بيذاكر he's still studying
كان للساعُه بيذاكر he was still studying


----------



## DarrenLamb

I'm pretty certain they use 'ma zaal' in Khaleeji


----------



## rayloom

DarrenLamb said:


> I'm pretty certain they use 'ma zaal' in Khaleeji



Probably so, I'm not too familiar with Khaleeji. Maybe a Khaleeji native can help.
I know they also quite commonly use "ba3d" to mean "still".


----------



## إسكندراني

Western (Tunisia westward) use مازال a lot, and in many contexts, even with feminine and plural.
مازال طالب؟
مازال طالبة؟
مازال غاديين؟
In Egypt & Sudan (& Libya too I think) we use لسّا almost always. But be careful because لسّا has another meaning too if not more, so your sentence must be structured to be understood correctly.


----------



## lukebeadgcf

لا زال, while very strange, is used in MSA. It seems to be the only instance of a perfect verb negated by لا that retains its perfect signification. Wright (Wright, vol. ii §1 D) says:



> Instances of the perfect retaining its original meaning after a single لَا are extremely rare. In later prose, however, we often find لَا زَالَ _he did not cease, he continued _(_to do_) employed just as مَا زَالَ or لَمْ يَزَلْ (Fleischer, _Kl. Schr. _i. 446 _seq._)



The following is from 1001 Nights:



> فنمت مكاني فأبصرت يدي بلا كف ففتشتني فرأت معي الكيس الذي فيه الذهب فدخل  عليها الحزن ما لا يدخل على أحد ولا زالت تتألم بسببي إلى الصباح فلما أفقت  من النوم وجدتها هيأت لي مسلوقة وقدمتها


----------



## DarrenLamb

So assuming that 'ma zaal' / 'ma zilt' is the means used, how would the future tense be formed then?

My guess would be 'ma zilt' + future tense verb. Would be great if any native Khaleejis could answer me this


----------



## irshad

As AndyRoo said, use the verb كان and I think لا is the حرف النفي to use in this case:
كان لا يزال سعيدًا
كنا لا نزال أُناسًا بُسَطاء
كان لا يزال يفعل ذلك


I was taught that when كان negates a whole sentence it is always at the front of the sentence (even though above it seems strange to follow لا with كان )
Is this the case?
Also, I was taught that when كان is at the front of a sentence it is always written كان in the third person singular. In the above example the sentence is preceded with كنا in the first person singular. Can anyone confirm for me what form of كان I would use?

Thanks


----------



## Abu Talha

I tried reading through the whole thread, apologies if I missed it. How would I say, "He still hasn't reached the city."

Should I say
ما زال لم يصل إلى المدينة
or
ما زال لا يصل إلى المدينة

I'd prefer the first, except I don't know if it is permissible or that it would change the tense to "had not" vs. "has not".

Any comments?
Thanks!


----------



## lukebeadgcf

daee said:


> I tried reading through the whole thread, apologies if I missed it. How would I say, "He still hasn't reached the city."



لم يصل إلى المدينة بعد

حتى الآن لم يصل إلى المدينة

This is how I think you would say it under normal circumstances. I also have doubts about the structures you posited, but I'm not sure.


----------



## Finland

Hello!



إسكندراني said:


> Western (Tunisia westward) use مازال a lot, and in many contexts, even with feminine and plural.



Indeed, and at least in Algerian Arabic it also means "not yet".

HTH
S


----------



## Abu Talha

lukebeadgcf said:


> لم يصل إلى المدينة بعد
> 
> حتى الآن لم يصل إلى المدينة
> 
> This is how I think you would say it under normal circumstances. I also have doubts about the structures you posited, but I'm not sure.


Thanks Lukebeadgcf, that would work.

ما زال لا  and ما زال لم  are quite popular on a Google search, but I wasn't able to find them searching through classical texts. However, my search wasn't very complete as sometimes the subject is mentioned between زال and the following verb so I might have missed it if it was indeed used.


----------

