# French nasal vowels vs. Portuguese nasal vowels



## Sprache

Though French and Portuguese both have nasal vowels, these nasal vowels sound nothing alike and they seem to work in rather different ways in the two languages. French nasal vowels are much easier for me to perceive and they always sound like very clean, short monophthongs with even nasalization. When I listen to Portuguese nasal vowels (at least of the Brazilian variety), I always perceive what sounds like a slight glide at the end, almost like a diphthong. So whereas French _bon_ sounds like [bõ] (maybe a bit more open), Portuguese _bom_ sounds almost like [bõw] to me. Likewise _tem_ sounds like [tẽj]. Am I imagining this? What is it that I'm hearing? At other times, I feel like I'm hearing the slightest onset of a [ŋ] at the end of Portuguese nasal vowels, of which there is no trace in French ones. Indeed it is quite hard for me *not* to pronounce _sim _as [sĩŋ]. In addition, Portuguese also nasalizes vowels in positions in which French does not, such as vowels that _follow_ nasal consonants and it also sounds like in some open syllables. How do I know which vowels in Portuguese are nasalized before n/m and which aren't? My main question is, how are Portuguese nasal vowels produced compared to French ones? Are the mechanisms that produce them different in these two languages?


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## caelum

You're correct. French only has four nasal monophthongs, whose quality is gradual; whereas Portuguese has a wide variety of strong nasal monophthongs and diphthongs, which maintain their nasal quality right from the start of their pronunciation. In Portuguese, here are only a couple of words in which the nasalization precedes the nasal consonant (ex. cama [cã.ma]) and one in which the preceding nasal consonant is the only component, yet it's still nasalized (ex. muito [muĩ.tu].

The paulstino dialect of Portuguese especially pronounces the -em as -ẽj (as in bem [bẽj], porém [por.ẽj], etc.


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## Sprache

Thank you for the clarification. So what causes me to hear a slight /n/ or [ŋ]? Is it the nasalized glide? And what about _bom_? Is it ever realized as a diphthong? Portuguese, especially Brazilian, sounds much more nasal than French does. I think that to the untrained ear, i.e. someone who doesn't speak or study the language, French nasal vowels are hardly perceptible, whereas Brazilians sounded to me as if they were saying half the words through their nose. It's very distinct. Is nasalization actually stronger in Portuguese?

For instance, is there ever nasalization in fal*a*mos or h*o*mem? How is the ending -_am_ of third person plural verbs pronounced? Again it sounds like a diphthong to me.


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## Nino83

Hi Sprache. 

The Portuguese don't nasalize vowels in open syllables, Brazilians (in general) nasalize *stressed *vowels in open syllables while Nordestinos nasalize also pre-tonic vowels in open syllables. 
All Portuguese speakers nasalize vowels in closed syllables. 

EP: canto [kɐ̃tu] cama [kɐmɐ] banana [bɐnɐnɐ] 
BP: canto [kɐ̃tu] cama [kɐ̃mɐ] banana [banɐ̃nɐ] 
NE: canto [kɐ̃tu] cama [kɐ̃ma] banana [bɐ̃nɐ̃na]  

_-am_ is pronounced [ɐ̃w] 

N.B. 

In European Portuguese, in open syllables before nasal consonants, /a/ is closed to [ɐ].


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## merquiades

Portuguese has 5 simple nasal vowels:  [ɐ̃] [ẽ] [ĩ] [õ] [ũ], 4 nasal diphthongs:  [ɐ̃w] [õj] [ɐ̃j] [ũj], and 4 nasal triphthongs:  [jɐ̃w] [wɐ̃w] [jõj] [wõj].  French has 4 simple nasal vowels:  [] [ɛ̃] [ɔ̃] [œ̃], and 2 nasal combinations: [wɛ̃] [jɛ̃].

If we compare, the Portuguese nasal system seems far more complex than the French.  Also the vowels are not the same, none of them overlap.  I was not aware that in Brazil nasal vowels can occur even in open syllables.  In Continental Portuguese and French, the scheme is rather similar:  n or m + consonant,  or n/m at the end of the word (Portuguese often has tilde here) causes the vowels to become nasal.  However if there is another vowel that follows immediately the vowel remains oral.  The nasal consonant is never pronounced in the standard language.
In Southern French accent a nasal consonant [ɳ] can sometimes be heard at the end of a word:  _vin blanc_= [vɛ̃ɳ blɑ̃ɳ]

banana as [bɐ̃nɐ̃na] seems almost impossible to say!


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## vince

In Quebec French, nasal vowels are diphthongized. Therefore the generalizations you're making are specific to certain accents and not to the language as a whole.


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## caelum

That's true, and funny since I actually didn't consider my own accent, which is very canadzien.


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## merquiades

vince said:


> In Quebec French, nasal vowels are diphthongized. Therefore the generalizations you're making are specific to certain accents and not to the language as a whole.



Which nasal vowels are diphthongized in Quebec?  In what way?  Are you comparing them to Portuguese vowels?


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## Nino83

Sprache said:


> Portuguese, especially Brazilian, sounds much more nasal than French does. I think that to the untrained ear, i.e. someone who doesn't speak or study the language, French nasal vowels are hardly perceptible, whereas Brazilians sounded to me as if they were saying half the words through their nose.



I hear the opposite. It seems to me that French nasalization is much stronger than Portuguese one. 

http://it.forvo.com/word/entender/#pt 
http://it.forvo.com/word/s'entendre/#fr


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## Ben Jamin

Nino83 said:


> I hear the opposite. It seems to me that French nasalization is much stronger than Portuguese one.
> 
> http://it.forvo.com/word/entender/#pt
> http://it.forvo.com/word/s'entendre/#fr


Listening to recordings I got together with "teach yourself Portuguese" books I hear the Portuguese nasals as consisting of three diachronic elements/phases: first a slightly nasalized vowel, then a kind of short "i", followed by a velar nasal, for example the word "bem" sounds like "being" /bɛ̃iŋ/ or /bɛ̃ŋ~/ (̃ŋ~ representing a palatal nasal).


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## Nino83

Ben Jamin said:


> Listening to recordings I got together with "teach yourself Portuguese" books I hear the Portuguese nasals as consisting of three diachronic elements/phases: first a slightly nasalized vowel, then a kind of short "i", followed by a velar nasal, for example the word "bem" sounds like "being" /bɛ̃iŋ/ or /bɛ̃ŋ~/ (̃ŋ~ representing a palatal nasal).



Final -_em_ in Portuguese language is a diphthong (not a nasal vowel). 

_também = _[tɐ̃bẽj] ([tɐ̃bɐ̃j] in Portugal)


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## vince

merquiades said:


> Which nasal vowels are diphthongized in Quebec?  In what way?  Are you comparing them to Portuguese vowels?


From the Wikipedia page on Quebec French phonology:



[ãː] → [ãũ̯]
[ẽː] → [ẽĩ̯] or [ãẽ̯]
[õː] → [õũ̯]
[œ̃ː] → [œ̃ỹ̯]

The same article also talks about nasalization of vowels after a nasal consonant in Québécois, which is like in Brazilian.


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## merquiades

vince said:


> From the Wikipedia page on Quebec French phonology:
> 
> 
> 
> [ãː] → [ãũ̯]
> [ẽː] → [ẽĩ̯] or [ãẽ̯]
> [õː] → [õũ̯]
> [œ̃ː] → [œ̃ỹ̯]
> The same article also talks about nasalization of vowels after a nasal consonant in Québécois, which is like in Brazilian.



œ̃ỹ̯ bõũ̯ vãẽ̯ blãũ̯?  I'm going to have to listen to more Québec radio.  That sounds so bizarre to me.  But so does _a bɐ̃nɐ̃na_ in Portuguese or I guess so would _la banãẽ̯ne _in French.  Thanks for the info.


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## caelum

vince said:


> From the Wikipedia page on Quebec French phonology:
> 
> 
> 
> [ãː] → [ãũ̯]
> [ẽː] → [ẽĩ̯] or [ãẽ̯]
> [õː] → [õũ̯]
> [œ̃ː] → [œ̃ỹ̯]
> 
> The same article also talks about nasalization of vowels after a nasal consonant in Québécois, which is like in Brazilian.




The difference is that everyone who speaks Portuguese uses nasal diphthongs, whereas in Québécois, it's certainly not standard, indeed more of a rural twang.


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## Nino83

merquiades said:


> œ̃ỹ̯ bõũ̯ vãẽ̯ blãũ̯?  I'm going to have to listen to more Québec radio.  That sounds so bizarre to me.  But so does _a bɐ̃nɐ̃na_ in Portuguese or I guess so would _la banãẽ̯ne _in French.  Thanks for the info.



You should listen to music from North East of Brazil (you'd hear words like *cɐ̃miz**a*​)


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## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> You should listen to music from North East of Brazil (you'd hear words like *cɐ̃miz**a*​)



Yes, I'll look it up.  Are you quite sure everyone in Brazil nasalizes in stressed open syllables?  bɐnɐ̃nɐ?


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## Sprache

merquiades said:


> Yes, I'll look it up.  Are you quite sure everyone in Brazil nasalizes in stressed open syllables?  bɐnɐ̃nɐ?


My impression is that at least the majority of Brazilians do so. To me it's one of the more distinctive features of Brazilian Portuguese.


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## Nino83

merquiades said:


> Yes, I'll look it up.  Are you quite sure *everyone* in Brazil nasalizes in stressed open syllables?  bɐnɐ̃nɐ?



Not everyone (for example nasalization could be absent or minor in Rio do Sul, Santa Catarina, Paraná)  but in "standard" pronunciation they are nasalized. 
For example, listen to "Elis Regina & Tom Jobim - "Aguas de Março" - 1974" on youtube (from 1.29 to 1.34, cama [kɐ̃mɐ] lama [lɐ̃mɐ], from 2.48 to 2.52, inho [ĩɲu]). 
Elis Regina (from Porto Alegre) doesn't nasalize (or nasalizes a little) while Tom Jobim (Carioca) nasalizes.


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## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> Not everyone (for example nasalization could be absent or minor in Rio do Sul, Santa Catarina, Paraná)  but in "standard" pronunciation they are nasalized.
> For example, listen to "Elis Regina & Tom Jobim - "Aguas de Março" - 1974" on youtube (from 1.29 to 1.34, cama [kɐ̃mɐ] lama [lɐ̃mɐ], from 2.48 to 2.52, inho [ĩɲu]).
> Elis Regina (from Porto Alegre) doesn't nasalize (or nasalizes a little) while Tom Jobim (Carioca) nasalizes.


Nice music.  I'm having problems distinguishing /ɐn/ from /ɐ̃n/ and /ɐm/ from /ɐ̃m/.  I can if it's really flagrant nasalization but not if it's slight.  Which of these people in your opinion nasalize banana and cama?


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## Nino83

merquiades said:


> Nice music.  I'm having problems distinguishing /ɐn/ from /ɐ̃n/ and /ɐm/ from /ɐ̃m/.  I can if it's really flagrant nasalization but not if it's slight.  Which of these people in your opinion nasalize banana and cama?



Those from Brazil: all nasalized but nsdough 
- Iafran (nordestina), muriloko (nordestino) and ualisson nasalize also the first /a/ (also vf2000, so I think she would come from North East). 
You can also (easily) hear that in BP, the nasalized /a/ is higher than oral /a/.


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## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> Those from Brazil: all nasalized but nsdough
> - Iafran (nordestina), muriloko (nordestino) and ualisson nasalize also the first /a/ (also vf2000, so I think she would come from North East).
> You can also (easily) hear that in BP, the nasalized /a/ is higher than oral /a/.



I was going to say that nsdough was the most nasal besides danhinha.  Iafran and muriloko don't seem particularly nasal (or not nasal) to me.  calb1 from Portugal also seems nasal. 
The "cama" people also seem borderline.


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## Nino83

And what do you think about Jobim's _cama_, _lama_ and _inho_? 
Do you hear nasalization in those words? 

http://www.forvo.com/word/banho/#pt 
Here, for example, there is a big difference beteen Flowerchild66 (Portugal, not nasalized [ɐ]) and sirasp (Brazil, nasalized [ɐ̃]). 

The fact that you don't hear a clear distinction between [ɐ] and [ɐ̃] is due to the fact that Portuguese nasalization is less strong than the French one.


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## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> And what do you think about Jobim's _cama_, _lama_ and _inho_?
> Do you hear nasalization in those words?
> 
> http://www.forvo.com/word/banho/#pt
> Here, for example, there is a big difference beteen Flowerchild66 (Portugal, not nasalized [ɐ]) and sirasp (Brazil, nasalized [ɐ̃]).
> 
> The fact that you don't hear a clear distinction between [ɐ] and [ɐ̃] is due to the fact that Portuguese nasalization is less strong than the French one.




Yes, I hear Jobim's nasal vowels.  He really cranks them out but part of it must be the vocalic nature of the song.  With those two ladies there is also a clear difference in _banho_ too.  Sirasp almost says /bɐ̃ɐ̃ju/.

Perhaps you are right and nasalization is not as strong as in French.  After the comments here I was expecting to hear very strong twangs in Brazilian Portuguese, but it's not the case.


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## xiskxisk

In Portugal, the nasal vowels only become a diphtong in those situations:

*em*, at the end of words: tem, vem, quem -> *ɐ̃j*
*am*, at the end of words (verbs): tinham, vinham -> *ɐ̃w*

Also, there's no nasalisation just by following or preceding a nasal consonant.
 To become nasalised, the m/n must be silent, at the end of the syllable:

t*am*b*ém* -> t*ɐ̃*b*ɐ̃**j*
but, b*a*n*a*n*a* -> bɐnɐnɐ (no nasalisation because in ba-na-na, the nasal consonants are not silent, they're part of the following syllable)

In other situations it's easy:



amanã/ɐ̃/emen/ẽ/imin/ĩ/omonõ/õ/umun/ũ/


And of course, in writen diphtongs, they're diphtongs:
 ãe -> ɐ̃j
ão -> ɐ̃w
õe -> õj


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## ganon51

xiskxisk said:


> In Portugal, the nasal vowels only become a diphtong in those situations:
> 
> *em*, at the end of words: tem, vem, quem -> *ɐ̃j*
> *am*, at the end of words (verbs): tinham, vinham -> *ɐ̃w*
> 
> Also, there's no nasalisation just by following or preceding a nasal consonant.
> To become nasalised, the m/n must be silent, at the end of the syllable:
> 
> t*am*b*ém* -> t*ɐ̃*b*ɐ̃**j*
> but, b*a*n*a*n*a* -> bɐnɐnɐ (no nasalisation because in ba-na-na, the nasal consonants are not silent, they're part of the following syllable)
> 
> In other situations it's easy:
> 
> 
> 
> amanã/ɐ̃/emen/ẽ/imin/ĩ/omonõ/õ/umun/ũ/
> 
> 
> And of course, in writen diphtongs, they're diphtongs:
> ãe -> ɐ̃j
> ão -> ɐ̃w
> õe -> õj



This might sound stupid, but why is there a letter j next to the nasal vowels?


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## Unoverwordinesslogged

How do the pronounciations of Portuguese placename: _Belém _and French placename:_ Bellême_ stand side by side in nasalness?


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## Ben Jamin

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> How do the pronounciations of Portuguese placename: _Belém _and French placename:_ Bellême_ stand side by side in nasalness?


I think that the ending in _Belém _in Portuguese is pronunced like in t*am*b*ém* in the post above, that is,  as a diphtong including a nasal vowel, while the French  _Bellême _ends in a nasal consonant *m*, and has no nasal vowel (like in _quand m__ê__me_). _ 
_If there was a French word Belem, it would end in a nasal vowel /ẽ/.  
The French orthography uses the final silent "e" as a signal that the preceding nasal consonant is to be pronounced as a consonant, not vowel.


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## merquiades

Unoverwordinesslogged said:


> How do the pronounciations of Portuguese placename: _Belém _and French placename:_ Bellême_ stand side by side in nasalness?


  Very different:  
/Blaẽ/  versus /Bɛlɛm/.  In this instance the Portuguese is a very nasal diphthong, but the French is not at all nasalized. The N/M must be at the end of a word or preceding a consonant to bring about nasalization.

@BenJamin
The French word "Bethléem" is pronounced  /bɛtleɛm/, no nasalization.  There is a list of words ending in M that are not nasalized.  Most are foreign sounding.  Other examples are "harem", "album".


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> The N/M must be at the end of a word or preceding a consonant to bring about nasalization.


You are aware that this is a relatively recent rule in French? E.g., in a Molière play you can still find a word play that only works_, _if _grammaire _and _grand-mère_ are pronounced the same.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> You are aware that this is a relatively recent rule in French? E.g., in a Molière play you can still find a word play that only works_, _if _grammaire _and _grand-mère_ are pronounced the same.



Yes, I was talking about modern language as not to confuse Unoverwordinesslogged.
Maybe in Québec that rhyme still would work....

In theory in "mm" we have an "m" before another consonant so that could explain nasalization back then.     "Femme" and "homme" must have been nasalized too.


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> In theory in "mm" we have an "m" before another consonant so that could explain nasalization back then.     "Femme" and "homme" must have been nasalized too.


Yes, there are some unetymological geminizations of_ n_ and _m_ that best be explained as indicating a nasal vowel followed by an audible /n/ or /m/, like in _bo*nn*e _or _dictio*nn*aire_ and the ones you mentioned.


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## Ben Jamin

merquiades said:


> @BenJamin
> The French word "Bethléem" is pronounced  /bɛtleɛm/, *no nasalization*.  There is a list of words ending in M that are not nasalized.  Most are foreign sounding.  Other examples are "harem", "album".


You mean "are not pronounced as a nasal vowel, or diphtong". *M *is a nasal consonant, as far as I know.


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## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> You mean "are not pronounced as a nasal vowel, or diphtong". *M *is a nasal consonant, as far as I know.


His wording is correct. He said "no nasal*ization*". /m/ is not nasal*ized* but _per se _nasal.


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## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> His wording is correct. He said "no nasal*ization*". /m/ is not nasal*ized* but _per se _nasal.


I did not write anything about nasalization, so why such a comment?
Besides, how can a nasal consonant be nasalized?


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## berndf

Ben Jamin said:


> I did not write anything about nasalization, so why such a comment?


But merquiades did and you failed to notice when criticizing his wording.


Ben Jamin said:


> Besides, how can a nasal consonant be nasalized?


That is precisely the point.


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## ganon51

So no one will respond to my comment, cool


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## Stoggler

ganon51 said:


> So no one will respond to my comment, cool



Well, that's one way to get some attention!

The letter j in those situations represent the sound usually written as a <y> in English, which is a semi-vowel and so, in the examples you quoted, help to represent relevant diphthongs.  The notation is IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet).


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## Ben Jamin

berndf said:


> But merquiades did and you failed to notice when criticizing his wording.
> That is precisely the point.



Just taste this: No nasalization of a consonant that can't be nasalized because it already is a nasal one. Why mention something which is irrelevant then?


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## hadronic

BenJamin, let's start from the beginning. What didn't you like in this Merquiades' statement : "The French word "Bethléem" is pronounced /bɛtleɛm/, no nasalization. " ? 

To add my twocents, I would say that final -m is almost always pronounced as /m/ in French and almost never indicates nasalization, except thym, parfum (can't find any other  ). Final -m is usually not found in original French words.


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## Nino83

hadronic said:


> Final -m is *usually* not found in original French words.



There are, for example, "nom" [nɔ̃] and "faim" [fɛ̃].


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## merquiades

Il se trouve que j'ai trouvé la liste des mots finissant en -m qui sont prononcés et dont les voyelles ne sont pas nasalisées.  Profitez-en bien! 

islam, harem, idem, item, tandem, album, forum, opium, rhum, serum, sodium, medium, vélum, hem!, hum!, tam-tam, boum, zoum, Abraham, Amsterdam, Bethléem, Jérusalem, Rotterdam, Siam, Stockholm.


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## hadronic

I found this list for nasalized final m : nom (pronom, prénom, renom, surnom), thym, daim, faim, essaim, parfum, to which we can add Adam. 7 words. 

http://research.jyu.fi/phonfr/34.html
"On peut donc dire que la règle, c’est que -m en finale se prononce (plus de 700 cas), et que les cas où il transcrit une nasale et ne se prononce pas sont des exceptions (10 cas)."


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## Ben Jamin

merquiades said:


> Il se trouve que j'ai trouvé la liste des mots finissant en -m qui sont prononcés et dont les voyelles ne sont pas nasalisées.  Profitez-en bien!
> 
> islam, harem, idem, item, tandem, album, forum, opium, rhum, serum, sodium, medium, vélum, hem!, hum!, tam-tam, boum, zoum, Abraham, Amsterdam, Bethléem, Jérusalem, Rotterdam, Siam, Stockholm.


Interestingly all of them are late learned loans or onomatopoeics.


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## Ben Jamin

hadronic said:


> BenJamin, let's start from the beginning. What didn't you like in this Merquiades' statement : "The French word "Bethléem" is pronounced /bɛtleɛm/, no nasalization. " ?
> 
> To add my twocents, I would say that final -m is almost always pronounced as /m/ in French and almost never indicates nasalization, except thym, parfum (can't find any other  ). Final -m is usually not found in original French words.


I was already resolved to bury this discussion, but you have dug it up again, so i'll answer: 
1. It's not right to say that I did not like it.
2. I had a problem to understand how "nasalization" could be relevant in the actual case, as an "m" is already a nasal consonant. But if it there is an established terminology in linguistics that you can nasalize both an "n" and an "m", then I must accept it, even if I would personally prefer to call it something like "vocalization of a nasal consonant"  or  maybe "nasal vocalization of an "em" syllable". This is of course true only of French. In Portuguese there is a "diphtongization".


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## merquiades

Ben Jamin said:


> Interestingly all of them are late learned loans or onomatopoeics.



Right.  Final -m is not native to French (probably all or most other Romance languages too... don't know about Romansh, Romanian, Sardinian etc.).  Most of them are Latinisms, then names, loan words, etc.

P.S.  I know what you meant.  You wanted me to say "nasalization of the preceding vowel sound" which is fine, and precise.  The nasal consonants cannot be nasalized because they are already nasal. 




			
				Hadronic said:
			
		

> "On peut donc dire que la règle, c’est que -m en finale se prononce (plus de 700 cas), et que les cas où il transcrit une nasale et ne se prononce pas sont des exceptions (10 cas)."


 500 cas comme album, forum, crématorium, planétarium, aquarium... prononcés /ɔm/.  Autant?  Il faut préciser les règles alors.  1) Les latinismes sont /ɔm/  2) Le -m des mots d'origine étrangère est prononcé, avec une voyelle orale  3) Le -m des mots d'origine française comme faim, daim, nom, renom, thym, parfum, Adam n'est pas prononcé et la voyelle est nasalisée.


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## Ben Jamin

merquiades said:


> Right.  Final -m is not native to French (probably all or most other Romance languages too... don't know about Romansh, Romanian, Sardinian etc.).  Most of them are Latinisms, then names, loan words, etc.
> 
> P.S.  I know what you meant.  You wanted me to say "nasalization of the preceding vowel sound" which is fine, and precise.  The nasal consonants cannot be nasalized because they are already nasal.


Thank you!


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## berndf

Now I understand your problem. "Nasalization" is a well established term and it describes a process where a vowel is modified under the influence of an adjacent nasal consonant, i.e. the consonant transfers its nasal quality to the preceding vowel. The original consonant may or may not be consumed in the process.


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## merquiades

berndf said:


> The original consonant may or may not be consumed in the process.



I think it is always consumed.  The vowel takes on the nasal quality and the nasal consonant then disappears.  Otherwise we have an oral vowel followed by a nasal consonant.

_Américain_  versus  _Américaine_
_Fin_  versus   _Fine_
_Bon_  versus  _Bonne_
_Pardon_ versus  _Pardonner_
_Lundi_ versus _lune, lunatique_

Portuguese shows nasalization in the first case, but in the second case the (historic) nasal consonant disappearing in many cases but leaving an oral vowel
_Bom - Boa
Lua 
Perdão - Perdoar_

but _-ano/-ana_, _-ino/-ina_ endings show vowel reduction but no nasalization; I guess because the -o was not lost until recently.


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## hadronic

I think berndf was describing nasalization in general. In French, yes, it does consume the consonant, but in other languages, it may not (like in English). 

@Merquiades: you said " Il faut préciser les règles alors : ...". The website I was quoting was only aiming at defining what is a rule, what is an exception, in French orthography (letter-to-sound). It doesn't assume someone will know if a word is Latin, a loan, an onomatopoeia or a genuine French word. It's just telling the 99% rule and lists the exceptions.


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## hadronic

I have a "theory", can you help me infirm or confirm it. 
All the genuine French words ending in -m with a nasal vowel have that m from the Latin source : nom < nómen, faim < fámes, essaim < exámen...
My utmost surprise is to see them there are only 7 words from Latin where the m was the last consonant of the stem (nom-, fam-, exam-...). It can't be possible. 
So one explanation will be, French usually replaced that written "m" with the more usual "n" to show nasalization, except in words where derivatives kept the m sound (without nasalization) : nommer, affamer, essaimer, parfumer (except maybe daim, thym   ). 
On < homo / hominis for instance didn't keep the orthographic  -m. 
Or, other instances of such stem-final "m" just didn't lead to nasalization to start with (just thought of comme < quómodo).  ("stem" stands for the stressed syllable here). 

Summary :
- stem-final m doesn't always lead to nasal vowel. (comme). 
- when it does, it's written with a "n"   (on). 
- except when derivatives have a "m" (nommer, essaimer). 

What do you think?


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## berndf

merquiades said:


> I think it is always consumed.  The vowel takes on the nasal quality and the nasal consonant then disappears.  Otherwise we have an oral vowel followed by a nasal consonant.
> 
> _Américain_  versus  _Américaine_
> _Fin_  versus   _Fine_
> _Bon_  versus  _Bonne_
> _Pardon_ versus  _Pardonner_
> _Lundi_ versus _lune, lunatique_
> 
> Portuguese shows nasalization in the first case, but in the second case the (historic) nasal consonant disappearing in many cases but leaving an oral vowel
> _Bom - Boa
> Lua
> Perdão - Perdoar_
> 
> but _-ano/-ana_, _-ino/-ina_ endings show vowel reduction but no nasalization; I guess because the -o was not lost until recently.



In late modern French, yes. In early modern French intervocalic nasal consonants nasalized the preceding vowel, e.g. in "bonne" or "grammaire".


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## berndf

hadronic said:


> I have a "theory", can you help me infirm or confirm it.
> All the genuine French words ending in -m with a nasal vowel have that m from the Latin source : nom < nómen, faim < fámes, essaim < exámen...
> My utmost surprise is to see them there are only 7 words from Latin where the m was the last consonant of the stem (nom-, fam-, exam-...). It can't be possible.
> So one explanation will be, French usually replaced that written "m" with the more usual "n" to show nasalization, except in words where derivatives kept the m sound (without nasalization) : nommer, affamer, essaimer, parfumer (except maybe daim, thym   ).
> On < homo / hominis for instance didn't keep the orthographic  -m.
> Or, other instances of such stem-final "m" just didn't lead to nasalization to start with (just thought of comme < quómodo).  ("stem" stands for the stressed syllable here).
> 
> Summary :
> - stem-final m doesn't always lead to nasal vowel. (comme).
> - when it does, it's written with a "n"   (on).
> - except when derivatives have a "m" (nommer, essaimer).
> 
> What do you think?


Unfortunately, my above post also answered your theory. /m/ originally did nasalize in words like "comme". De-nasalization of all nasal vowels in front of nasal consonants is a much later process that is independent of the original nasalization. Final ms were probably already lost in classical Latin, i.e. the ending -um was pronounced as a nasalized short u that was de-nasalized to -o (the closed o is the Romance vowel closest to the Latin short o). That explains the relative scarcity of final m in Romance languages.


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## hadronic

I'm not talking about the -um / -em endings of Latin.
I'm talking about the _stem-final "m"_ , which in French became word final, after erosion of all post-tonic syllables.
Examples are "faMes", "hoMinem", "noMinem", etc... there HAS to be more "m"s in this position in Latin than the 7 words or so we cited before.
This, is really the point that befuddles me.

I'm ok with the later denasalization process, but this occurs mainly when the following n or m and vowel  _was_  pronounced : grammaire, bonne, etc...
I'm not aware of any case where denasalization "resussicitated" the n or m (like a hypothetical  (latin) cum >  (fr.) co~ > (m "rebirth")comme  ).


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## berndf

_Hommes_ and _fammes_ *were* two syllable words back then and there *was* _nasalization_. The muting of the final -e was yet another and yet later process.


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## hadronic

In what does this contradict what I said before, regarding denasalization ?

That said, "homme" and "femme" could be example of stem-final m that didn't fall.
Any other stem-final "m" examples ?


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## berndf

I don't know. Do you know any example where stem final m in Latin has been replaced in French?


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## hadronic

I only think of "on".
Words with stem-final "n" are numerous : pan- (bread), can- (dog), etc... and they all give the expected output in French : pain, chien, etc...
I'm just surprised there isn't more "canonical" words like this with -m- instead :  *pamus ?  *cames ? ... 
All other instances I can think of have a less straightforward syllable structure:  anima, hominem, feminem, somnus...


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## merquiades

In Western Romance Vulgar Latin "m" and "n" merged at the end of a syllable/word and are only contrasted before a vowel:  /m/ became only possible before /b/, /p/, /f/ and /n/ before any other consonant (its point of articulation is somewhat different depending which one) or at the end of the word.  That is still the case in Spanish, even with almost all the aforementioned loan words which came later:  _harén, Jerusalén, Adán_ (the -um words are -o:  _plenetario, foro, crematorio_ etc.)  In the very few exceptions natives invariably cannot pronounce them.  They álbun but write _álbum_, isláma for _islam_.  In old French nasalization of vowels occurred and the nasal consonant was dropped so the spelling in itself is unimportant and can vary.  It wouldn't matter for example if we had decided to write "fain" and "dain", or "bonbe".  "On" could easily have been "hom"

Final Latin -m did not make it to Western Vulgar.  
_Iam_ >  _Déjà, ya, ja_
_Sum_ > _Suis, soy, sou_
_Cantabam_ > _Chantais, cantaba, cantaba_
_Novum_ > _Neuf, nuevo, novo_

There are traces of it in a few words:  
_tam_ > _tant, tan, tão_
_cum_ > XX,_ con, com_
_quem_ > _qui, quien, quem_
The Portuguese -Vm are nasalized diphthongs with no real /m/.




			
				hadronic said:
			
		

> My utmost surprise is to see them there are only 7 words from Latin where the m was the last consonant of the stem (nom-, fam-, exam-...).



Western VL derives from the accusitive singular in Latin not from the nominative singular:  so these words derive from _nominem, faminis, examinis_.  Also true for hominem, feminam. The stress being on the first syllable, the post tonic syllable is dropped bring mn into contact:  nomne, famne, essamne, homne, femne.  This unpronounceable combination brought about a change to "mbr" in Spanish:  _nombre, fambre > hambre, exambre > enjambre, hombre, fembra > hembra_.  This is the same with verbs that derive from them:  _nombrar (nommer), enjambrar (essaimer)_.  In French with the vowel is nasalized as the /m/ preceded the /n/, and then later the /n/ is assimilated to /m/, finally the vowel is denasalized.  _Nom, faim, essaim_, and _homme/on, femme_.  
Portuguese is _nome, fome, enxame, homem, fêmea_.

_Parfum_ is a Latinism coming from the expression _per fume_ (_par la fumée_).  _Parfumer_ would be a verb invented out of that.


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## hadronic

Thank you for this detailed analyzis. So it seems all the cases of -m in French come from  "-Vminem" type of nouns.
So Latin really doesn't have any "simple" words with -m- like *camus, *pamus,... Still surprised...


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## CapnPrep

hadronic said:


> So Latin really doesn't have any "simple" words with -m- like *camus, *pamus,... Still surprised...


Have you looked in a Latin dictionary? There is a word _camus_, for example (and also _camum_ and _cama_). Also _domus_, _fumus_, _hamus_, _humus_, _limus_, _mimus_, _primus_, _ramus_, _remus_, _tomus_, _demum_, _pomum_, _thymum_, _coma_, _fama_, _lima_, _pluma_, _spuma_, _trama_, _comes_, _limes_, _comis_, _rumis_, _nimis_, … Within this list you can find a few words that survived into (Old) French and you will see what happened to Latin stem-final _m_.


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## hadronic

I could imagine they were such words, but I was surprised that I couldn't find any simple example (whereas I could for most of other consonants).
I need to look deeper in your list, but already, words like "tome" (< tomus), "mime" (<mimus), "prime" (<primus) are very likely "mots savants" (later reborrowing). Feminine words are out-of-scope, since the -a never fell in Old French, and the -m- was never exposed to a final position. I guess some words have an extended declined form (limes - limitis > "limite"), again preventing the -m- to be finale.

I'll find the trick.

Thx


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