# Evo Morales



## Everness

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4544768.stm

Bolivian socialist leader Evo Morales apparently won enough votes in the country's presidential election to be installed as its new leader. In other words, he was elected democratically by Bolivians. 

What is the first thing that the US says?

_"The issue for us is: Will the new Bolivian government govern democratically? Are they open to co-operation that, in economic terms, will undoubtedly help the Bolivian people?" US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told reporters. _

They guy hasn't yet taken office and Condi, instead of congratulating Mr. Morales for his accomplishment, is already raising questions about his democratic credentials. 

This is why people across the world don't take us seriously and actually despise us. We practice selective democracy. If people vote for someone who preaches and practices the free-market gospel, the US is happy and democracy is celebrated. But if a country decides to vote for an indigenous Aymara coca farmer who expressed his admiration for the Cuban leader Fidel Castro and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, the US starts undermining its moral and political authority before it takes office and the value of democracy is diminished.


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## BasedowLives

yeah the USA is gonna hate any country that doesn't embrace a really liberal market system.  seeing as how the many of the population seem to be campesinos (correct me if i'm wrong) it seems like he's naturally going to be a favorite.

I don't know what to think.   Like many like minded people before him they have the peoples interests in mind, but it doesn't always work out for the country.  Maybe instead of going completely against the free trade act he'll work on turning it into a fair trade act so the markets would still be open for exports while keeping a semi-protectionist policy to encourage domestic spending (at least while in the econ-development stage)and the workers would hopefully be better taken care for. i don't even know if that's possible though so meh.


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## Fernando

Everness said:
			
		

> for an indigenous Aymara coca farmer who expressed his admiration for the Cuban leader Fidel Castro and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez,



You mean, with such an ideology, should he deserve trust?


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## clipper

I don´t have a strong knowledge of world politics but as far as I can see the US administration seems unable to grasp the very concept of democracy. If a leader is elected by the population by correct, fair and uncorrupt process then is that not democracy ? (I´m not saying that the election of Morales fulfils any of those conditions as I have no knowledge of or insight into the electoral system but I am assuming that the result is accurate and will stand).

I´m afraid that from the outside it appears that the US is acting like a spoilt child, ungracious (intolerant?) in defeat ("defeat" used here as I´assume there were pressures or incentives put on the Bolivian people to not vote for a socialist leader, although I stand to be corrected on this, the US´s wishes are easy to deduce) and as Everness states, it actually reinforces the idea that the US undermines democracy by only supporting it when it goes their way.


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## Roi Marphille

Fernando said:
			
		

> You mean, with such an ideology, should he deserve trust?


amigo Fernando, 
That's not the issue. 
I believe that the thread suggests that the US Government rate or doubt about a country's democracy _depending_ on their closeness to US Government ideas. 
My opinion is: yes, *they do* and I don't agree with that.


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## siljam

Because as father of all countries in the world. it's the duty of US to correct the errors and mistakes of the children peoples who elect the wrong presidents


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## luis masci

*for an indigenous Aymara coca farmer who expressed his admiration for the Cuban leader Fidel Castro and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez*

Oh come on. We don’t need to look as a naive guys!! All us know that with such asseveration Morales will be seen squint by USA. 
But so… if they do the cultivation of coca main activity, they need to sell it. I think would be relatively easy to follow the track of drug by FBI or any other sophisticate  investigative agency. The question is : are there really serious intention to drop out the profit business of drug issue?


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## Fernando

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> amigo Fernando,
> That's not the issue.
> I believe that the thread suggests that the US Government rate or doubt about a country's democracy _depending_ on their closeness to US Government ideas.
> My opinion is: yes, *they do* and I don't agree with that.



I know what the thread (as a matter of fact, the thread starter) SUGGESTS. But I prefer to talk about what the post actually SAYS.

So:

1) US has congratulated Mr. Morales for his victory, which nobody is denying.

2) I (not US) doubt about Mr. Morales' democratic views.

3) Mr. Morales has threatened with breaking every contract with Western companies (namely Spain and US). Regardless you think about these contracts are or not honest, US has the obligation to protect their companies. For the record, I think they are honest.

For the record, also: 

1) No, I am not a member of any oil company.

2) I have been working in Bolivia for a month or so and I have seen Morales' big democratic ideas.

3) Bolivia has its perfect right to commit suicide. Do not ask me to applaude.


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## Outsider

As far as I can tell, Mr. Evo Morales was elected by the people of his country in free and fair elections, with a 20% lead over his main opponent. You don't get more democratic than that.


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## Fernando

I regret the most to quote myself:


			
				Fernando said:
			
		

> 1) US has congratulated Mr. Morales for his victory, *which nobody is denying*.


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## Outsider

When people begin to question whether Morales 'will govern democratically', it's good to remind them that he was democratically elected (well, not yet, technically), lest they launch a campaign to convince the public that he is a dictator.


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## Fernando

Of course, he has been democratically elected. This way he has something in common with Hitler, Fujimori and all previous bolivian presidents since Hugo Bánzer. All of them were "helped" by Mr. Morales to quit the presidency after all sorts of strikes, blockings and demonstrations. 

Moreover if Mr. Morales is saying he is an advocate of Chávez and Castro I would not say he is entitled to expect any trust in its respect to democracy.

We will wait and see. In one year (if not, before) we will see who is wrong. Maybe it is me. I would be happy indeed.


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## cuchuflete

Was G.W. Bush elected democratically for his first term?  There is considerable debate about the process by which he became president in his first term.


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## Fernando

Cuchu, this is totally off-topic.  What a pleasure to say that to you! 

To answer you I have no doubt Bush was democratically elected.


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## Outsider

Fernando said:
			
		

> Of course, he has been democratically elected. This way he has something in common with Hitler, Fujimori and all previous bolivian presidents since Hugo Bánzer. All of them were "helped" by Mr. Morales to quit the presidency after all sorts of strikes, blockings and demonstrations.
> 
> Moreover if Mr. Morales is saying he is an advocate of Chávez and Castro I would not say he is entitled to expect any trust in its respect to democracy.
> 
> We will wait and see. In one year (if not, before) we will see who is wrong. Maybe it is me. I would be happy indeed.


Just one correction, because that is something I hear a lot, and which I once believed myself: Hitler was not exactly elected. He was appointed chancellor by president Hindenburg. The Nazi Party had had a plurality of votes in previous elections (37%), but they did not have the majority. Furthermore, I would hesitate to call those elections fair and free:



> Murder and violence soon erupted on a scale never before seen in Germany. Roaming groups of Nazi Brownshirts walked the streets singing Nazi songs and looking for fights.
> 
> "Blut muss fliessen, Blut muss fliessen!" [...]
> _"Blood must flow, blood must flow!"_
> 
> Copyright © 1996 The History Place™ All Rights Reserved


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## Roi Marphille

Fernando said:
			
		

> Cuchu, this is totally off-topic.  What a pleasure to say that to you!
> 
> To answer you I have no doubt Bush was democratically elected.


I think half of posts in this thread were technically off-topic, weren't they?


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## cuchuflete

Fernando said:
			
		

> Cuchu, this is totally off-topic.  What a pleasure to say that to you!
> 
> To answer you I have no doubt Bush was democratically elected.



Fernando,
You almost got me this time.  Regardless of one's affection for the gentleman in question, the first election's outcome was determined by a court, and not by popular, democratic voting.

In fact, the US has a system of presidential elections which is inherently undemocratic.  It is always possible, even in an uncontested, uncontroversial election, for a candidate to lose the popular vote, and be elected to office by Electoral College.

Hence, for the US to be a proponent of democracy, while lacking a fully democratic process at home, rings a little hollow.

cheers,
Cuchu


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## Fernando

I strongly disagree. In any electoral system, based on territory rather than in popular vote, this outcome is possible. As an example, the Catalonia president (PSC) has been elected with far less votes than the CiU candidate.

In UK, when there is only one winner by circunscription (Eng.) is common.

JFK (correct me if I am wrong) won against Nixon, even losing the popular vote.

etc etc


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## cuchuflete

More fun...
In US presidential elections...

the winning candidate had the fewest votes in the elections of 1824, 1876, 1888, and possibly 1960.
Bush's popular vote in 2000: 50,460,110
Gore's popular vote in 2000: 51,003,926
Ralph Nadar......................:  2,883,105
Pat Buchanan.......................:    449,225
Various others, total...............:    610,000


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## Fernando

Outsider said:
			
		

> Hitler was not exactly elected. He was appointed chancellor by president Hindenburg. The Nazi Party had had a plurality of votes in previous elections (37%), but they were part of a coallition. Furthermore, I would hesitate to call those elections fair and free:



You are right, but 37% means majority (and government) in any current democracy. Hindenburg had only limited options.


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## Outsider

Proportional representation is not the only way to 'count votes', though, *Cuchuflete*. I don't think it's right to say that the U.S.'s Ellectoral College system is undemocratic. An interesting book that explains various electoral systems, for those who are not afraid of a little math (very little, I promise!), is: 

Tannenbaum, P.; Arnold, R., _Excursions in Modern Mathematics_, Prentice Hall 
(See chapter 1, "The Mathematics of Voting: The Paradoxes of Democracy".)


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## Roi Marphille

well, anyway...the electoral system is mostly confirmed/approved as per votation, isn't it? so the way the votes are counted has been decided in a democratic way. 
tricky?


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## cuchuflete

Outsider,
I didn't say that proportional representation was the only way to count votes.  I simply pointed out that the US has a system for electing presidents that allows the candidate who receives the most votes....to lose the election.  This is legal, traditional, and arguably far less democratic than elections based on the popular vote alone, without an intermediary body that may ignore the will of the people who will be governed by the winning candidate. 

 My state is one of very few, three I believe, that allow for electoral votes to be split, to reflect the popular vote.  In the great majority of U.S. states, if your vote is not among the majority for that state, it is totally meaningless.  This seems undemocratic to me.



			
				Outsider said:
			
		

> Proportional representation is not the only way to 'count votes', though, *Cuchuflete*. I don't think it's right to say that the U.S.'s Ellectoral College system is undemocratic. An interesting book that explains various electoral systems, for those who are not afraid of a little math (very little, I promise!), is:
> 
> Tannenbaum, P.; Arnold, R., _Excursions in Modern Mathematics_, Prentice Hall
> (See chapter 1, "The Mathematics of Voting: The Paradoxes of Democracy".)


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## Roi Marphille

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> This seems undemocratic to me.


well, I guess laws can be democratically amended, can't be?


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## Fernando

Should I assume this thread deals with the democraticity of the several methods of election?


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## Jana337

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> My state is one of very few, three I believe, that allow for electoral votes to be split, to reflect the popular vote. In the great majority of U.S. states, if your vote is not among the majority for that state, it is totally meaningless. This seems undemocratic to me.


I don't think it is undemocratic as long as it applies indiscriminately to all parties, which it does. 

Think about the link between the _eurosclerosis_ (in a broad sense of the word) and our stupid proportional electoral systems that produce lame coalition governments manipulated by bureaucrats and facilitate the outsourcing of power beyond the control of citizens. The party I vote for always wins a couple of seats in my region. You may occassionally happen to be in minority. However, I believe that, due to the insufficient accountability of the decision makers here in Europe, my vote here carries less influence on the domestic policy than yours.

Jana


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## cirrus

Back to Evo everyone!  

Morales will have it hard no matter what.  Given the US administration's line on cocaine production there is no way the US will rush to support anyone linked to the cocaleros.  Add to this the dispute about the gas I can't see the US standing mutely by as multinationals like Repsol and other gas companies start shouting about how unfair his proposals for some sort of re nationalisation of the gas reserves are. 

For me the man risks suffering an avalanche of expectation from his own voters. Given that a country with a majority of quechua or aymara speakers hasn't had a government by someone with the same roots since inca times there will be real expectation of change. 

I wonder what sort of coalition of forces - old or new - could meet what the oil and gas companies want on the one had and what the electorate expects on the other.  Even people who wouldn't be seen dead voting for an "indio" as little as a year ago have voted for Evo on the basis that nobody else seems to have a cat in hell's chance of delivering change in a country which so sorely needs it.

I wish him well but don't feel at all optimistic.


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## Fernando

Only a minor point: Bolivia has not a majority of quechua/aimara speakers, but of quechua/aimara people (I mean, ethcnically speaking).


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## Roi Marphille

cirrus said:
			
		

> I wish him well but don't feel at all optimistic.


me too, I think it won't be difficult for US Gov. and Repsol-alike Companies to kick him out the Government. They will find a way for sure...  legal? I don't think so!


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## Everness

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elpais/1-58860-2005-11-05.html

_Si bien no hubo un pedido de colaboración expreso a Bush para que facilitara la negociación con el organismo, Kirchner habló del papel preponderante que debería adoptar Estados Unidos dado su “poder hegemónico” en la región. 
–¿Hegemónico?– se alteró Bush. El término no le gustó nada. 
–Sí, la hegemonía de Estados Unidos es muy fuerte. Yo le digo las cosas como las pienso, no soy un presidente alcahuete._

This exchange between Kirchner, Argentina's president, and W took place  during the IV Summit of the Americas in Mar del Plata, Argentina. Condy's statement on Evo (first post of this thread) clearly reflects this hegemonic way of conducting ourselves in Latin America. 

The US wants Latin American countries to elect goverments that align themselves 100% behind its international agenda. As W once put it, "You're either with us, or you're against us." If they don't, the US will resort to any means so as to exert pressure on these countries until they get it right.


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## Fernando

Given the pro-Evo realm, I hope you would be glad that Spanish Foreign Office had promised Evo to double Spanish assistance payments to Bolivia ONLY IF HE WON.

Of course, this is not a interference in foreign affairs.::


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## América

Fernando said:
			
		

> 3) Bolivia has its perfect right to commit suicide. Do not ask me to applaude.


About this I am pretty sure we can keep on going. I am bolivian and I lived here all my life. I really don't like Morales, and I were pretty surpirsed when he won with such a mayority. Maybe we are commiting suicide as you said, but maybe he will be as corrup and as US follower as all the other presindents that we had


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## Roi Marphille

América said:
			
		

> About this I am pretty sure we can keep on going. I am bolivian and I lived here all my life. I really don't like Morales, and I were pretty surpirsed when he won with such a mayority. Maybe we are commiting suicide as yuo say, but maybe he will be as corrup and as US follower as all the other presindents that we had


I think he has good-will intentions, as I think the same as Mr.Lula. 
However, like Mr.Lula in Brazil...he will find many people willing to destroy his reputation and kick him off Government and maybe from this world too.


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## Fernando

América, can you expand your views on Evo Morales? Maybe we disagree but anyway you are more informed than us.


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## BasedowLives

Roi Marphille said:
			
		

> me too, I think it won't be difficult for US Gov. and Repsol-alike Companies to kick him out the Government. They will find a way for sure...  legal? I don't think so!



i don't think it's in the USA's place to kick democratically elected leaders out of office.  they've done it in the past sure, but i think that with the increase in technology too many people in the USA would be aware of it and disaprove.


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## Roi Marphille

BasedowLives said:
			
		

> i don't think it's in the USA's place to kick democratically elected leaders out of office. they've done it in the past sure, but i think that with the increase in technology too many people in the USA would be aware of it and disaprove.


by kicking him off I don't mean to bomb the country, nor hire a sniper to shoot him...there are many other ways to do it...some of them very John-le-Carré_-esque.  _
I bet they are already working on it.
Yes, information flows nowadays...I think there are a lot of people in the USA aware of many things. I'd say secrets flow nowadays as well.


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## América

Fernando said:
			
		

> América, can you expand your views on Evo Morales? Maybe we disagree but anyway you are more informed than us.


 
 Hola de nuevo. Les voy a escribir en español porque es más fácil expresarme. Primero, yo no estoy para nada de acuerdo con la política de Evo Morales. No es porque sea indígena (en absoluto). Ya hemos tenido antes un vice-presidente indígena (Victor Hugo Cárdenas) que es un hombre muy preparado (intelectualmente hablando) tiene una profesión y además tiene una mestría, habla 5 idiomas y es una persona educada. Pero Evo Morales es un tipo que ni siquiera ha terminado el colegio, y es un poco ignorante, por lo que considero que simplemente con él de presidente pasaremos de ser los títeres de USA a ser los títeres de Venezuela.

 Pero ese es mi punto de vista personal, pasando a un punto de vista más político, no se olviden que Evo participó también como candidato a la presidencia en el año 2002, y obtuvo bastantes votos, (no eran votos de indígenas como alguien mencionaba antes) sino más bien votos de las clases baja y media-baja. Los indígenas que son de clase media a clase alta no votaron por él.

 Sin embargo, la gente está tan cansada (no sé si de los políticos de siempre o simplemente de tener que soportar todos los días marchas y bloqueos) que tanto indígenas como no indígenas de todas las clases sociales que existen en el país han votado por Evo en estas elecciones.

 Y creo que más que todo con la esperanza que si este exdirigente campesino es presidente, por lo menos podremos trabajar y vivir en paz, sin bloqueos. Cosa que no sé cuan cierta pueda ser dado que ya los otros dirigentes campesinos le han dado máximo 100 días para cambiar el país y si no puede hacerlo empezaran nuevamente con las medidas de presión (otra vez bloqueos).

 Por eso creo que nuestra tranquilidad durará máximo hasta marzo y luego volvemos a lo mismo de siempre. Sin embargo, lo que pude ser fatal es que en este tiempo perdamos ayuda internacional (de la que somos altamente dependientes) y Bolivia tenga un retroceso de 20 años en unos pocos meses.


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## chula

He leído un poco sobre Evo Morales y me parece que ha sido un hombre que ha luchado toda su vida con las masas por lo que consideraba ser justo. La verdad es que un título universitario muchas veces no es tna válido cómo lo es la experiencia de vida. Siento que él ha sentido en carne propia la miseria y ha luchado al lado del pueblo, mientras que la mayoría de presidentes que se han graduado de la universidad, especialmente los que se han graduado de las universidades élites, muy pocas veces, con algunas excpeciones claro, han bajado la mirada para ver la miseria del pueblo. A muchos les falta la práctica.
Si Evo Morales se alínea con Castro y Chávez, será que es porque es la alternativa a  USA, o por lo menos la más cercana. Espero de corazón por Bolivia que su administración o por lo menos él no se olvide del pueblo que lo ha apoyado y el pueblo con el que él ha luchado. 

En 100 días me parece un poco ilusorio que alguien vaya a cambiar el país. Es imposible, así como también lo es pretender que él arregle el país en un período de gobierno. Lo que sí puede hacer es sembrar semillas y lo deseo y lo espero por el pueblo boliviano y ante todo por la credibilidad de su gente.  El tiene un peso político en sus hombros al ser el primer presidente indígena. Espero que actúe lo mejor que pueda para así ser un ejemplo para el resto del mundo indígena de latinoamérica y para acabar con el tabú de que el indio ignorante no puede hacer nada.


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## América

chula said:
			
		

> En 100 días me parece un poco ilusorio que alguien vaya a cambiar el país.



Chula, respecto a este tu comentario estoy totalmente de acuerdo, pero ese es el *problema* de Bolivia, los dirigentes campesinos no miran al largo plazo, es por cultura, entonces te exigen soluciones rápidas, y a Evo ya le han dado 100 días a partir del 22 de Enero que será posesionado para hacer milagros (que obviamente no hará)

Respecto al resto de tu opinión, no tienes idea de lo que es vivir en Bolvia estos días, la insertidumbre es terrible, todas las empresas capitalizadas serán quitadas a los extranjeros y puestas en manos del gobierno (como era antes) Y por ejemplo Entel (la empresa de telecomunicaciones) si no la hubieran capitalizado iba a quebrar en 3 años más. Mi esposo trabaja en una empresa capitalizada y él y todos sus compañeros de trabajo ya están viendo qué van a hacer porque los van a despedir para dar pegas a los que apoyaron la campaña de Evo (osea a los que le pusieron plata).

Te aseguro que con la administración de Evo seremos más pobres que antes en menos de un año, te lo aseguro.


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## Everness

chula said:
			
		

> El tiene un peso político en sus hombros al ser el primer presidente indígena. Espero que actúe lo mejor que pueda para así ser un ejemplo para el resto del mundo indígena de latinoamérica y para acabar con el tabú de que el indio ignorante no puede hacer nada.




_Los rostros morenos –esos que en la Bolivia moderna siguen sufriendo una suerte de apartheid– ya no son los mismos, hoy condensan la expectativa de sentirse en el centro de la historia, mirados por la burguesía de los barrios acomodados con una mezcla de perplejidad y temor por sectores de las clases medias, con la esperanza de que “si éstos gobernaron 180 años y lo hicieron tan mal quizás el Evo lo haga mejor”_

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/elmundo/4-60785-2005-12-22.html

By the way, Pagina 12 has the best Spanish-speaking journalists in the world. It's a pleasure reading any article they publish. It reminds us how pointless the literature vs. journalism debate is.


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## chula

Creéme América que lo lamento por los bolivianos que en este momento se encuentran más o menos bien en comparación de lo s que ahora entrarán. Sabes? Mi país es el segundo en latinoamércia donde la mayoría es indígena, como el 60% o más. Hemos vivido a las cuestas de ellos por muchos, muchos anios. Vendrá la época donde a nosotros nos vaya a pasar lo mismo, en el sentido que nuestro mundo cambiará como hasta ahora lo conocíamos. Pero así será la historia si los gobiernos que tenemos ahora siguen ignorando las necesidades del pueblo indígena y excluyéndolo de todo, hasta de la educación. Si esto está pasando ahora en Bolivia es la respuesta a tantos anios de exclusión por la clase dominante. Ni tu esposo ni tú son los culpables de eso, claro, ahora él perderá el trabajo, pero tampoco a la otra gente que ahora tiene la oportunidad se le puede culpar su reacción.


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## the tower

esta tendencia social democrata se esta viendo en nuestros paises suramericanos, debido a que muchos paises y sus governantes buscan una independecia economica de los estados unidos, espor esta razon que paises como bolivia escogen a un governante como evo morales, lo curioso es que para que haya una independecia economica total debe haber un pago de deudas masiva por parte de los goviernos suramericanos para asi no tener nexos comerciales con los norteamericanos y cerrar un poco mas el mercado de las americas, estas son las razones por las que el govierno estado unidense no aprueba este tipo de goviernos surjan o tomen poder debido a que van en contra de sus politicas capitalistas. los paises deben ponerse de acuerdo con sus economias para asi no afectar la democracia, ya que si hay deudas no hay independecia y si no hay independencia no hay una democracia pura y transparente.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Granted, it's years since I lived in Bolivia, but it's still very much my second country.  Most of my info comes from the Bolivian and Argentine press, but I realize that I'm a long way away.

I don't see any different ending for the Morales government than for Carlos Mesa ... or any of his predecessors ... as long as the country is so divided racially.  I was really disgusted when the winner of some beauty contest in Santa Cruz said something like "No soy alguna india, soy blanca y se hablar ingles".  I love Bolivia, but get depressed when I hear people being dismissed for their size, skin colour, Quechua surnames, traditional clothing, etc.  Para mi la cultura indigena es el corazon del pais, hay que desarrolarlo y no eradicarlo, y si Morales pueda devolvarlos a ellos un poco de orgullo, me cae bien.  Yo tambien vivo en un pais de divisiones culturales y economicos, y veo lo mismo en los 2 paises:  Alberta en Canada y Santa Cruz en Bolivia ahora quieren mas autonomia y queiren guardar los ingresos de las otras provincias que los apoyaron (lena y piel en Canada, plata y lata en la cordillera) anterioramente.

I think Evo owes the U.S. a real debt - if they hadn't made such a fuss in 2002 there might not have been such a groundswell of support in 2005.  Did you know that the American ambassador to Canada criticized our own Prime Minister a couple of weeks ago now that we're in an election cycle?


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## Edwin

Una broma de una estación radial católica española a Evo Morales causa tensión diplomática


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## Outsider

Wasn't there a similar prank played on a politician of another country, this year? It's in the back of my mind, somewhere...


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## natasha2000

siljam said:
			
		

> Because as father of all countries in the world. it's the duty of US to correct the errors and mistakes of the children peoples who elect the wrong presidents



I hope this is said with a certain tone of irony....


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## América

Para continuar un poco la discusión que inicié con Chula... En Bolivia hace tiempo que el color de la piel o el apellido no es motivo de discriminación, nuestro país no discrimina a las razas, desde hace unos años, la discriminación se ha vuelto de clases. Esto lo digo porque existen Mamanis (apellido quechua) que son de clase alta y ellos discriminan a aquellos que son de clase baja. Yo no creo que se haya elegido a Evo Morales como presidente de Bolivia como un tema racial, esta discusión está fuera de lugar. Yo creo que se ha elegiudo a Evo Morales porque era el único en contra del modelo económico neoliberal del que todos en Bolivia están cansados, ha sido una elección en contra de USA más que a favor de Evo (ya que claramente el resto de los oponentes eran de corriente neoliberal o por lo menos pro-USA.


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## Edwin

Outsider said:
			
		

> Wasn't there a similar prank played on a politician of another country, this year? It's in the back of my mind, somewhere...



Sí, creo que alguien fingiendo ser Dios le dijo a George Bush que él se había escogido libertar Iraq. El problema es que George todavía no se da cuenta de que era una broma.


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## Chaska Ñawi

"la discriminación se ha vuelto de clases"

Si, America, estoy en acuerdo por lo general, pero todavia se oye en Bolivia frases como "No comes como indio", "no seas indio", etc.  

Yo tambien he visto indigenes convirtiendoses al clase cholo y negando sus familias y comunidades originales.

Morales ha dicho "Somos el presidente" o algo parecido, referiendo a la gente indigena - me preguntaba que pensaron la otra gente que votaban.

Hay alguien que ha visto la macana en el diario Clarin, hablando en serio del jefe de los "cocacocaleros"?


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## Quebar

gracias por permitirme tomar parte de su foro.
cada pais tiene su soberania y esto se debe respetar si bolivia escogio por democracia a evo morales esto se debe respetar, el punto critico es que se dice que el presidente morales no esta preparado para governar, tambien se le acusa de tener terrenos con siembras de coca, el punto a analizar es que hace el presidente morales y de donde viene, no el hecho si es o no indigena.
como indigena debe tener la oportunidad de governar ya que es ciudadano boliviano, pero como cocalero tiene la opcion democratica de governar?

este punto de vista es el que he estado analizando, y todavia no encuentro respuestas.


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## América

Quebar said:
			
		

> gracias por permitirme tomar parte de su foro.
> cada pais tiene su soberania y esto se debe respetar si bolivia escogio por democracia a evo morales esto se debe respetar, el punto critico es que se dice que el presidente morales no esta preparado para governar, tambien se le acusa de tener terrenos con siembras de coca, el punto a analizar es que hace el presidente morales y de donde viene, no el hecho si es o no indigena.
> como indigena debe tener la oportunidad de governar ya que es ciudadano boliviano, pero como cocalero tiene la opcion democratica de governar?
> 
> este punto de vista es el que he estado analizando, y todavia no encuentro respuestas.



Hola Quebar primero que nada bienvenido y felices fiestas. 

Puede que Evo Morales no esté preparado para gobernar (porque no tiene mucha instrucción) sin mebargo se ha rodeado de gente muy capaz y preparada, no he elegido a Evo Morales personalmente tengo una mentalidad más neoliberal (por lo que voté por la oposición) sin embargo creo que Evo Morales (gracias a su equipo) puede hacer algo bueno por Bolivia.

El otro punto, creo que no tiene nada de relevante. Es decir, en mi país no es ilegal que alguien tenga plantaciones de coca (y si Evo las tiene no importa) ya que nosotros producimos mates de coca, pastas dentales de coca, y muchos otros productos naturales de la hoja de coca, por lo que solamente la hoja de coca que se produce para hacer cocaína es ilegal, y ésta se produce en algunas tierras del chapare dónde la tierra es mala y produce una calidad de coca que solo puede usarse para producir cocaína. Sin embargo, en el Chapare (que es de donde es Evo Morales) también existe tierra buena para productos naturales.

No te olvides que Evo es un defensor de la hoja de coca y por lo tanto quiere luchar contra el narcotráfico para poder quitarle ese tabú a la hoja de coca (su lema *coca no es cocaína*)


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## América

Chaska Ñawi said:
			
		

> "la discriminación se ha vuelto de clases"
> 
> Si, America, estoy en acuerdo por lo general, pero todavia se oye en Bolivia frases como "No comes como indio", "no seas indio", etc.
> 
> Yo tambien he visto indigenes convirtiendoses al clase cholo y negando sus familias y comunidades originales.
> 
> Morales ha dicho "Somos el presidente" o algo parecido, referiendo a la gente indigena - me preguntaba que pensaron la otra gente que votaban.
> 
> Hay alguien que ha visto la macana en el diario Clarin, hablando en serio del jefe de los "cocacocaleros"?


You are right, nevertheless I still yhink that the real discrimination is of classes, and those sentences you mentioned are used most of the time by the cholos, but as I said before, there is still being a rasist discrimination but is strongher the one of classes. And when Evo Sais "Somos el presidente" he was refering to the people (indios, cholos y clases bajas) not only to the indios.


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## Quebar

América said:
			
		

> Hola Quebar primero que nada bienvenido y felices fiestas.
> 
> Puede que Evo Morales no esté preparado para gobernar (porque no tiene mucha instrucción) sin mebargo se ha rodeado de gente muy capaz y preparada, no he elegido a Evo Morales personalmente tengo una mentalidad más neoliberal (por lo que voté por la oposición) sin embargo creo que Evo Morales (gracias a su equipo) puede hacer algo bueno por Bolivia.
> 
> El otro punto, creo que no tiene nada de relevante. Es decir, en mi país no es ilegal que alguien tenga plantaciones de coca (y si Evo las tiene no importa) ya que nosotros producimos mates de coca, pastas dentales de coca, y muchos otros productos naturales de la hoja de coca, por lo que solamente la hoja de coca que se produce para hacer cocaína es ilegal, y ésta se produce en algunas tierras del chapare dónde la tierra es mala y produce una calidad de coca que solo puede usarse para producir cocaína. Sin embargo, en el Chapare (que es de donde es Evo Morales) también existe tierra buena para productos naturales.
> 
> No te olvides que Evo es un defensor de la hoja de coca y por lo tanto quiere luchar contra el narcotráfico para poder quitarle ese tabú a la hoja de coca (su lema *coca no es cocaína*)



creo que es prudente que el se rodee de personas capacitadas para ejercer un govierno mas estrategico, pero lo que veo es que bolivia es un pais con muchos años de atrasos y que si sus cuatro años de govierno se las va a pasar imponiendo sistemas que duran decadas en implantarse en goviernos que mas que sistemas economicos necesitan una inyeccion de inversion extranjera que genere empleo un mejoramiento de los sistemas de calidad del pais, a lo que voy es que se preovupan mas por un sistema politico que por el pueblo.

hay gente que tiene otros lemas que son *sin coca no hay cocaina*


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## América

Quebar said:
			
		

> creo que es prudente que el se rodee de personas capacitadas para ejercer un govierno mas estrategico, pero lo que veo es que bolivia es un pais con muchos años de atrasos y que si sus cuatro años de govierno se las va a pasar imponiendo sistemas que duran decadas en implantarse en goviernos que mas que sistemas economicos necesitan una inyeccion de inversion extranjera que genere empleo un mejoramiento de los sistemas de calidad del pais, a lo que voy es que se preovupan mas por un sistema politico que por el pueblo.
> 
> hay gente que tiene otros lemas que son *sin coca no hay cocaina*



 Perdón por la pregunta pero ¿En qué país vives?... Para poder entender un poco más tu punto de vista, porque no estoy para nada de acuerdo en que mi país sea un país preocupado por los sistemas políticos, si Evo ganó es po el sistema económico que desea implantar en mi Bolivia. Sorry I completly desagree with you.


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## Javomtz

Realmente siento que hay mucho revoloteo por el tema de Evo Morales, cuando no deberia haberlo, simplemente deberiamos de respetar la desición del pueblo Boliviano y dejarlo comenzar a trabajar y posteriormente que SU pueblo le demande sus fallas y le aplauda sus aciertos. Dejemonos de discusiones sobre si algunos sistemas económicos son mejores que otros, puede ser que para algunas economías sirva una ultra derecha y para otras economías cerradas y estatizadas....


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## Quebar

América said:
			
		

> Perdón por la pregunta pero ¿En qué país vives?... Para poder entender un poco más tu punto de vista, porque no estoy para nada de acuerdo en que mi país sea un país preocupado por los sistemas políticos, si Evo ganó es po el sistema económico que desea implantar en mi Bolivia. Sorry I completly desagree with you.



perdon por haber causado algun mal entendido, con mi expresion, es que he visto que desde hace mucho tiempo bolivia no ha tenido un governante que busque un desarrollo sostenido en su economia interna y externa, y al ver de que alguin como evo morales asume la presidencia de un pais como bolivia, da para muchas hipotesis y planteamientos, creo que se me hace dificil romper el paradigma de la coca ya que he visto como otros paises han sufrido por este flagelo, por eso me preocupa que alguien con antecedentes envueltos con esta planta govierne un pais, sin embargo su gestion hablara con el pasar del tiempo y asi los bolivianos veran si hicieron una buena decision.

gracias


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## claudine2006

USA, as usually, accept democratic elections only if they like the winner. It happened not only in Bolivia, but also in Palestina, for example.


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## heidita

Fernando said:
			
		

> You mean, with such an ideology, should he deserve trust?


 
I agree with Fernando. Is he trustworthy supporting and getting the support of one of the most tremendous dictatorships in the world?

I also like this walking around in sweaters all the time. Actually he is known as "el del jersey" here in Spain. (he went to a Royal reception invited by the King of Spain with a striped sweater)

I cannot find any reason to trust his government. But we are save here in Spain, as he is a close friend of our wonderful democratically voted prime minister Zapatero and he has certainly thanked him for his support! Thank God they are friends! Please do ask Spanish main companies like Repsol! Brazilians are also very fond of him. Yes, very trustworthy indeed. If he thanks his friends like this, how can you be surprised at the untrusting behaviour of the American Government towards him? Is he just to be respected because he was an indigenous farmer?


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## cirrus

What a strange post you have just put heidita.  Since when has any of the multinationals working in Latin America prioritised the welfare of the local population?  The only reason they are their is for profit.  Social welfare is nowhere on their agenda. The way Repsol's plight is represented in Spanish media is something I find really disappointingly imperialistic.  I can't imagine the UK media doing anything similar if BP or Shell were to come into local difficulties elsewhere.


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## heidita

cirrus said:
			
		

> What a strange post you have just put heidita. Since when has any of the multinationals working in Latin America prioritised the welfare of the local population? The only reason they are their is for profit. Social welfare is nowhere on their agenda. The way Repsol's plight is represented in Spanish media is something I find really disappointingly imperialistic. I can't imagine the UK media doing anything similar if BP or Shell were to come into local difficulties elsewhere.


 
WE must not forget that Zapatero supported Morales all the way. He gave certain promises, amongst others that all investments in the country were assured.

Well, in any case, apart from this, do you really think that as now the _imperialistic_ companies are nationalised the people are going to see anything from this money? I certainly do not, having see what kind of corruption exists in the countries we are talking about. 
Did you know, that one of Morales's best friends, Castro, is one of the richest men in the world? I think he is number 7 or so, quite incredible , isn't it?


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## cirrus

heidita said:
			
		

> WE must not forget that Zapatero supported Morales all the way. He gave certain promises, amongst others that all investments in the country were assured.
> 
> Well, in any case, apart from this, do you really think that as now the _imperialistic_ companies are nationalised the people are going to see anything from this money? I certainly do not, having see what kind of corruption exists in the countries we are talking about.
> Did you know, that one of Morales's best friends, Castro, is one of the richest men in the world? I think he is number 7 or so, quite incredible , isn't it?



The difference is that Morales was voted in. The difference between and Cuba are Boliva are huge.  I think nationalisation doesn't really come into the corruption question.  Look at Nigeria - oil isn't nationalised there and yet there is significant corruption, ditto Guinea Bissau.


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## .   1

Outsider said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell, Mr. Evo Morales was elected by the people of his country in free and fair elections, with a 20% lead over his main opponent. You don't get more democratic than that.


Apparently George W. bush believes that it is more democratic to win an election with 49% ot the total votes.

.,,
A good scorer will beat a good player any day.


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