# You're not going to the store, are you?



## Abu Talha

Hello,

Is it possible to express idiomatically in Standard Arabic a sentence like, "You're not going to the store, are you?" where the speaker is asking this because he wants the addressed person to do a task for him, if he (the addressed person) is indeed going to the store.

Another similar sentence is a parent calling out to a child, "You're not playing with your toys again, are you?". Here the parent wants the child to _not_ play with his toys but rather do something more productive, like homework, etc.

I was thinking of saying something like
ألا تذهب إلى السوق؟
and
ألا تلعب بلُعَبِك؟

but the first one seems to say, "*Won't you* go to the market?" which is a suggestion. The intended meaning is not to suggest an action but rather only to give the addressed person a task, if he was going to the market of his own volition.
The second Arabic sentence seems to be saying, again, "*Won't you* play with your toys?" which is the opposite of the intended meaning. The parent wants the child to stop playing with his toys, if he was playing with them.

Is this correct?

I also thought of

ألست ذاهبا إلى السوق؟

and
ألست لاعبا بلُعَبِك؟

But these seem to be inquiries that express mild surprise. As if to say, "*Aren't you* going to the market?" and, "*Aren't you* playing with your toys?" , i.e., "I thought you would be doing so, and I'm surprised that you aren't".

Is this interpretation also correct?

If so, is there another way to express the intended meanings?

Thanks.


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## Kinan

أذاهب انت الى السوق؟
تلعب بدماك من جديد, اليس كذلك؟
أتلعب بلعبك من جديد؟


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## cherine

Hi,

Usually the questions like (aren't you, don't you,....) in Arabic are expressed with أليس كذلك . If you don't use it, your question will be like a simple/usual negative question (without the last confirming part).


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## 333_34

cherine said:


> Hi,
> 
> Usually the questions like (aren't you, don't you,....) in Arabic are expressed with أليس كذلك . If you don't use it, your question will be like a simple/usual negative question (without the last confirming part).



Agree! 

You're not going to the store, are you?
لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل، أ ليس كذلك؟
--------------------------------
الجواب: بلى ( أي: ابطال النفي--- "ليس كذلك"،  يعني: نعم، هو كذلك كما قلتَ -- لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل--- كلامك هذا صحيح )  ، لستُ ذاهبا إليه
No, I am not.
أو: نعم ( أي: نعم ، ليس كذلك ، ليس كما قلتَ" لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل"، بل في الحقيقة: أنا ذاهب) ، أنا ذاهب إليه
Yes, I am going to the store.
*************************
Note: but the following question will be different in terms of its meaning and the way of answering it.

You're not going to the store,is that right?
لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل ، أ صحيح هذا ؟
---------------------------------
الجواب: نعم ( هذا صحيح )، لستُ ذاهبا إليه
Yes, I am not going to the store.
أو: لا ( هذا غير صحيح )، أنا ذاهب إليه
No, I am going to the store.


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## Kinan

لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل، أ ليس كذلك؟
This sentence doesn't serve the purpose at all.


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## 333_34

Kinan said:


> لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل، أ ليس كذلك؟
> This sentence doesn't serve the purpose at all.



thanks for joining the discussion.

If you are asked by someone like this:

لستَ من سوريا، أ ليس كذلك؟
You are not from Syria, are you? 

The one who ask you this question, he is not sure about your origin, or he doubt you are from Syria, so he asked you this question. Do you think this question doesn't serve the purpose?


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## إسكندراني

333_34 said:


> thanks for joining the discussion.
> 
> If you are asked by someone like this:
> 
> لستَ من سوريا، أ ليس كذلك؟
> You are not from Syria, are you?
> 
> The one who ask you this question, he is not sure about your origin, or he doubt you are from Syria, so he asked you this question. Do you think this question doesn't serve the purpose?



I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of this sentence in English; it is not literal. So the meaning doesn't transfer.

As far as I know, formal Arabic doesn't use this kind of sentence (which is good because it's confusing) but in Egypt, we could use إوعى تكون ناوي تروح المحلّ or إوعى تكون رايح المحلّ to say 'I hope you're not going to the shop' - but the English sentence doesn't necessarily mean that. Similarly there is a formal Arabic إيّاك أنْ تَفعَل but it is a warning again.

Also there is a formal construction ألن or ألا but those mean either 'will you not' or 'do you not' rather than 'you are not'.


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## Abu Talha

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. So I get the impression that this sort of meaning can be approximated in Arabic but there isn't an exact counterpart using a negative sentence.

I just want to highlight one point. Using the example of the parent when he says, "You're not playing with your toys again, are you?", this type of sentence makes it very easy for the child to agree to the parent's statement by replying, "No, I'm not."

On the other hand, if the parent were to say, "Are you playing with your toys again?", here it is harder for the child to reply, "No, I'm not." because he has to go against the parent's statement. 

Also, the parent's question here (in the "Are you ...?" question) is more incriminating and implicating as if the parent has guessed that the child was playing with his toys and is asking for an admission of guilt that he *is* playing with his toys. Conversely, in the "You're not ..., are you?" question, the parent is assuming that the child is not playing with his toys (or at least makes it appear so) and is asking for confirmation of his innocence that he *is not*.

So, if I have been successful in conveying this fine point, is there some way to convey this meaning in Arabic which does not necessarily have to bear any resemblance to the English?


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## إسكندراني

daee said:


> Using the example of the parent when he says, "You're not playing with your toys again, are you?", this type of sentence makes it very easy for the child to agree to the parent's statement by replying, "No, I'm not."
> 
> On the other hand, if the parent were to say, "Are you playing with your toys again?", here it is harder for the child to reply, "No, I'm not." because he has to go against the parent's statement.
> 
> Also, the parent's question here (in the "Are you ...?" question) is more incriminating and implicating as if the parent has guessed that the child was playing with his toys and is asking for an admission of guilt that he *is* playing with his toys. Conversely, in the "You're not ..., are you?" question, the parent is assuming that the child is not playing with his toys (or at least makes it appear so) and is asking for confirmation of his innocence that he *is not*.
> 
> So, if I have been successful in conveying this fine point, is there some way to convey this meaning in Arabic which does not necessarily have to bear any resemblance to the English?



هل تركت اللعب؟


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## 333_34

إسكندراني said:


> I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of this sentence in English; it is not literal. So the meaning doesn't transfer.
> 
> As far as I know, formal Arabic doesn't use this kind of sentence (which is good because it's confusing) but in Egypt, we could use إوعى تكون ناوي تروح المحلّ or إوعى تكون رايح المحلّ to say 'I hope you're not going to the shop' - but the English sentence doesn't necessarily mean that. Similarly there is a formal Arabic إيّاك أنْ تَفعَل but it is a warning again.
> 
> Also there is a formal construction ألن or ألا but those mean either 'will you not' or 'do you not' rather than 'you are not'.



شكرا على تعليقك ، و أهلا بك في المناقشة حول الموضوع
اذا سئلتَ 
أ ليستَ غير مصري؟
فكيف تجيب عن هذا السؤال؟ بناء على كونك مصريا 

شكرا لك مرة آخرى


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## Kinan

333_34 said:


> thanks for joining the discussion.
> 
> If you are asked by someone like this:
> 
> لستَ من سوريا، أ ليس كذلك؟
> You are not from Syria, are you?
> 
> The one who ask you this question, he is not sure about your origin, or he doubt you are from Syria, so he asked you this question. Do you think this question doesn't serve the purpose?



In your example for Syria, yes it does, but not for the market example, as the OP wants to check if his friend is going to the store so he can ask him to bring something for him.


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## 333_34

Kinan said:


> In your example for Syria, yes it does, but not for the market example, as the OP wants to check if his friend is going to the store so he can ask him to bring something for him.


أحمد يريد يوسف أن يشتري شيئا له إذا كان ذاهبا إلى المحل...لأن أحمد رأى يوسف يخرج من المنزل...و هو لا يعرف هل يوسف يخرج إلى مكان آخر أو إلى المحل، ولكن يغلب على الظن لعله ليس ذاهبا إلي المحل، مع ذلك يتمني أحمد هناك امكانية ذهابه إلى المحل
فقال أحمد ليوسف:
لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل، أ ليس كذلك؟
اذا يغلب على الظن أن يوسف سيذهب إلى المحل، فمن الأفضل أن يسأل هكذا 
أنت ذاهب إلى المحل، أ ليس كذلك؟
********************
this way of asking question does convey the situation mentioned by " daee".


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## 333_34

بالنسبة إلى مثال لعب الطفل بلعبه
فيمكن يقول الأب لطفله
لن تعلب بلعبك في وقت غير مناسب مرة آخرى، أ ليس كذلك؟
أو كما اقترح أخونا "اسكندراني" باستخدام كلمة "ترك" فيقول
ستترك اللعب بلعبك في وقت غير مناسب في المستقبل، أ ليس كذلك؟
هذا، لا يعنى هذا هو الأسلوب الوحيد ليعطي المعنى المنشود

و شكرا للجميع


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## Kinan

333_34 said:


> أحمد يريد يوسف أن يشتري شيئا له إذا كان ذاهبا إلى المحل...لأن أحمد رأى يوسف يخرج من المنزل...و هو لا يعرف هل يوسف يخرج إلى مكان آخر أو إلى المحل، ولكن يغلب على الظن لعله ليس ذاهبا إلي المحل، مع ذلك يتمني أحمد هناك امكانية ذهابه إلى المحل
> فقال أحمد ليوسف:
> لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل، أ ليس كذلك؟
> اذا يغلب على الظن أن يوسف سيذهب إلى المحل، فمن الأفضل أن يسأل هكذا
> أنت ذاهب إلى المحل، أ ليس كذلك؟
> ********************
> this way of asking question does convey the situation mentioned by " daee".



The first example is rarely if not ever used, personally I have never heard someone says a sentence like that, it's just not Arabic form of talk.
Even if you think he is probably not going to the store, you would still say "هل انت ذاهب الى المحل؟" "أذاهب انت الى المحل؟"


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## Kinan

333_34 said:


> بالنسبة إلى مثال لعب الطفل بلعبه
> فيمكن يقول الأب لطفله
> لن تعلب بلعبك في وقت غير مناسب مرة آخرى، أ ليس كذلك؟
> أو كما اقترح أخونا "اسكندراني" باستخدام كلمة "ترك" فيقول
> ستترك اللعب بلعبك في وقت غير مناسب في المستقبل، أ ليس كذلك؟
> هذا، لا يعنى هذا هو الأسلوب الوحيد ليعطي المعنى المنشود
> 
> و شكرا للجميع



The English version states the father is kinda annoyed to know his kid is playing with his toys "again", and he is indirectly accusing him of playing again.
Saying لن تلعب لعبك في وقت غير مناسب مرة اخرى, اليس كذلك suggests a very kind advise with an indirect threat in it, so it doesn't translate the original intention.


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## إسكندراني

333_34 you are producing translations which might be grammatically correct, but they are not idiomatic at all.


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## 333_34

Kinan said:


> The English version states the father is kinda annoyed to know his kid is playing with his toys "again", and he is indirectly accusing him of playing again.
> Saying لن تلعب لعبك في وقت غير مناسب مرة اخرى, اليس كذلك suggests a very kind advise with an indirect threat in it, so it doesn't translate the original intention.



حقا، عندما اقترح 34_333 استخدام ذلك التعبير كان يقصد المعالمة مع الطلف بلطف كما أشارتَ إليه ، أي

suggests a very kind advise with an indirect threat in it,


لو كان السائل يريد تشديد اللوم على طفله للعبه بلعبه 
و المعاملة بعنف
فيمكننا أن نقول
لا تكرر لعب بلعبك مرة آخرى، أ فهمت!؟
أو شيئا مثله


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## 333_34

اذن، كيف يقول الأب؟
هل يقول كما ذكرت سابقا
هل تركت اللعب؟


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## إسكندراني

لا تكرر لعب بلعبك مرة آخرى، أ فهمت!؟
/\
هذه صحيحة أيضاً


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## Kinan

I would say : تلعب بدماك من جديد, اليس كذلك؟ with blaming tone.
or:
أتلعب بلعبك من جديد؟ like I don't believe you are doing that again after I told you not to.


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## 333_34

إسكندراني said:


> لا تكرر لعب بلعبك مرة آخرى، أ فهمت!؟
> /\
> هذه صحيحة أيضاً



و لكنها معالمة بعنف، و 34_ 333 لا يعجبه استخدام العنف


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## cherine

333_34,

Your examples are incorrect in that you put the question itself in the negative form, then add another question in negative form. The correct way to put this is to start with the affirmative, then follow it with أليس كذلك . So, if you want, for example, to check if someone is Chinese, you'd say:
أنت صيني، أليس كذلك؟
But not لست صينيًا، أليس كذلك؟ because in this case you would be confirming that he is _*not*_ Chinese.


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## 333_34

To cherine:

thanks for your reply. 333_34 is with you while you pointing out the difference between " لست صينيا، أ ليس كذلك " and " أنت صيني ، أ ليس كذلك ". however, you might overlooked what 333_34 already wrote in his previous posts. please refer to post # 6 . and post # 12, where explained why the sentence is started with a negative form, and why it is logically and linguistically correct.

on the other hand, 333_34 is with you too, in terms of using "negative + negative" in a sentence, such usage is not often used in our daily life communication. personally, 333_34 would not use it unless necessary. This reason he used those examples is to explain how we answer a disjunctive question in Arabic or English. 

Finally, 333_34 would like to confirm even though "negative+negative" form is not often used, we do use them in our daily life without noticing it. Here is an example:

When a child did something wrong or bad, his father or mother may warn him/her like this: 
أ ليس غير جيد؟
how to response to this question? it is quite tricky, because this question is in "negative+negative" form with a أ ليس , it equals to : 
إن هذا الأمر غير جيد، أ ليس كذلك؟


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## إسكندراني

I have never heard anyone use a construction like this. Please bring an example if you have one; otherwise I advise you it's not good practice to 'make up' Arabic at will!


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## 333_34

إسكندراني said:


> I have never heard anyone use a construction like this. Please bring an example if you have one; otherwise I advise you it's not good practice to 'make up' Arabic at will!



please refer to post # 6 , post # 12 and post #23. after you read those posts. 
if you still hold such opinion as you posted, then 333_34 would like to say to you ( another live example  ) 

أ ليس غير معقول هذا؟


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## إسكندراني

لستَ من سوريا، أليس كذلك؟ this feels incorrect and I've never heard it. We would say أنت من خارج سوريا، أليس كذلك؟ or لست من سوريا، صحيح؟
لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل، أ ليس كذلك؟ I wouldn't say this even in the context you mentioned. I would use any other way to convey the meaning.
أليس غير جيد؟ again I've never heard this at all, including in the context you mentioned.
أليس غير معقول؟ <- this one you can probably use  but it is an exception because (غير معقول) is so common.
My point is it's not normal to use double-negatives (or negatives twice in a row) in Arabic. Be cautious because you might fail to convey the meaning.


On a separate note, regarding the original post, if you wanted to casually say 'you're not going to the store, are you?' (in an inquisitive rather than a blaming tone), in the Egyptian dialect we use something which other countries might not understand: ما تكونش رايح المحلّ؟


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## 333_34

إسكندراني said:


> لستَ من سوريا، أليس كذلك؟ this feels incorrect and I've never heard it. We would say أنت من خارج سوريا، أليس كذلك؟ or لست من سوريا، صحيح؟
> لستَ ذاهبا إلى المحل، أ ليس كذلك؟ I wouldn't say this even in the context you mentioned. I would use any other way to convey the meaning.
> أليس غير جيد؟ again I've never heard this at all, including in the context you mentioned.
> أليس غير معقول؟ <- this one you can probably use  but it is an exception because (غير معقول) is so common.
> My point is it's not normal to use double-negatives (or negatives twice in a row) in Arabic. Be cautious because you might fail to convey the meaning.
> 
> 
> On a separate note, regarding the original post, if you wanted to casually say 'you're not going to the store, are you?' (in an inquisitive rather than a blaming tone), in the Egyptian dialect we use something which other countries might not understand: ما تكونش رايح المحلّ؟



333_34 is 100% with you on that point highlighted above. As previously mentioned, the reason he constructed those sentences is to explain how we can deal with them in terms of answering them in a correct way. 

So come to the key point of 333_34, how do you response to that "live example" question 
أ ليس غير معقول هذا؟
please use بلى  or نعم


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## Kinan

Kinan would get dizzy trying to figure out the structure of the question  then work his brain hard and eventually answers with "eh"?


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> On a separate note, regarding the original post, if you wanted to casually say 'you're not going to the store, are you?' (in an inquisitive rather than a blaming tone), in the Egyptian dialect we use something which other countries might not understand: ما تكونش رايح المحلّ؟


I'm not very good with dialect, but I think there is a similar construction in fuSHa:
ما كنتُ لِأَفعلَ كذا 
for "I'm not about to do such-and-such." but I think this expression might be a strong statement expressing a desire not to do something. Here is an example:
عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ سَعْدٍ - رضى الله عنه - قَالَ أُتِىَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِقَدَحٍ فَشَرِبَ وَعَنْ يَمِينِهِ غُلاَمٌ ، هُوَ أَحْدَثُ الْقَوْمِ ، وَالأَشْيَاخُ عَنْ يَسَارِهِ قَالَ يَا غُلاَمُ أَتَأْذَنُ لِى أَنْ أُعْطِىَ الأَشْيَاخَ .فَقَالَ مَا كُنْتُ لأُوثِرَ بِنَصِيبِى مِنْكَ أَحَدًا يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ . فَأَعْطَاهُ إِيَّاهُ .
However, in order to see if something like this would work for the original question, what do you guys think about this:
ما كنتَ لِتذهبَ إلى المحل ، أَوَتذهبُ؟


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## إسكندراني

daee said:


> I'm not very good with dialect, but I think there is a similar construction in fuSHa:
> ما كنتُ لِأَفعلَ كذا
> for "I'm not about to do such-and-such." but I think this expression might be a strong statement expressing a desire not to do something. Here is an example:
> عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ سَعْدٍ - رضى الله عنه - قَالَ أُتِىَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِقَدَحٍ فَشَرِبَ وَعَنْ يَمِينِهِ غُلاَمٌ ، هُوَ أَحْدَثُ الْقَوْمِ ، وَالأَشْيَاخُ عَنْ يَسَارِهِ قَالَ يَا غُلاَمُ أَتَأْذَنُ لِى أَنْ أُعْطِىَ الأَشْيَاخَ .فَقَالَ مَا كُنْتُ لأُوثِرَ بِنَصِيبِى مِنْكَ أَحَدًا يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ . فَأَعْطَاهُ إِيَّاهُ .
> However, in order to see if something like this would work for the original question, what do you guys think about this:
> ما كنتَ لِتذهبَ إلى المحل ، أَوَتذهبُ؟


Oh, I love how we keep finding new possible meanings for the same English sentence. I think we may have to resort back to latin for scientific research soon.
Here you have demonstrated what most Arabs would think my Egyptian sentence meant (I expect you won't go to the shop). Actually, Egyptians always mean (I hope you are going to the shop so I can ask you to get me something). I'm quite surprised a similar phenomenon exists in English. I'm also surprised I didn't see it because it was glaring in front of me.

To clarify for 'TL;DR' passers by, the english sentence (you're not going to the store, are you?) might mean: 
* an indirect threat < daee's original post is here
* an expression of desparate 'not again'
* a question assuming/hoping that you are going . < my last example is here
* a question assuming/hoping that you are not going . < our numerical friend is here. as is daee's last example.
* a question assuming nothing.
there must be a few more. too long, didn't write


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> Oh, I love how we keep finding new possible meanings for the same English sentence.


I think you are right, Iskenderani. I think the fault was mine because I worded the original post as if the English construction, which could be used in multiple ways, might possibly have _one_ Arabic counterpart that would be used similarly.


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## إسكندراني

daee said:


> ما كنتَ لِتذهبَ إلى المحل ، أَوَتذهبُ؟


In my head, the construction ما كنت لأفعل is 'I would not do', so your question works as a pure hypothetical. However, I suspect classical usage is not restricted to this.


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