# Persian: /ow/, /oo/



## Daffodil100

Hello!

1. How do I know وshould be pronouced as /ow/, or /oo/?

For example

پاو / palow/

دور/door/


2. I think /ow/ is pronounced closely as /o/+/u/? Am I right?

3. I always have problem about how to mix the typing of Persian words and English ones. If I type a Persian word or letter, and then I switch to English input, it sometimes doesn't work well. How do you make it?

Thank you!


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## Alfaaz

Daffodil100 said:
			
		

> 1. How do I know و should be pronouced as /ow/, or /oo/?


 There seem to be two basic rules: 


A letter with a zabar joined to a waa'o will have the _au_ sound. Examples: 
رَوْنَقْ _(re zabar waa'o = rau) + (nuun zabar qaaf = naq) = raunaq_ 
دَوْلَتْ _(daal zabar waa'o = dau) + (laam zabar te = lat) = daulat_ 
طَوْر_ (to'e zabar waa'o = tau) + (re) = taur_ 

A letter with a pesh joined to a waa'o will have the _uu_/_oo _sound. Examples: 
دُوْر _(daal pesh waa'o = duu/doo) + (re) = duur _
طُوْر _(to'e pesh waa'o = tuu) + (re) = Tuur _

An example incorporating both sounds would be مَوْجُوْد _maujuud_: _(meem zabar waa'o = mau) + ((jeem pesh waa'o = juu) + (daal) = juud) = maujuud_


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## Aryamp

1. You'll only have to memorize the pronunciation, there's no rule to enable you to predict how و should be pronounced however as a vowel I think it is most often pronounced as u/oo .

2. Standard Persian spoken in Iran is different from Dari Persian Spoken in Afghanistan. In Iran "و " is either pronounced like "o" similar as in english words "for , core " or "u" (also transliterated as oo) as in english " dude or zoom" 

So the rules Alfaaz expounded don't apply to standard Iranian Persian. 

3. That's the biggest problem of many persian users, on computer Persian /Arabic writing is totally incompatible with English , in a software like Office Word you'll need to choose "right to left text direction" that way some of the problems will be solved but still you'll need to understand how it works specially the position of the cursor and placement of symbols like . = / etc will be problematic , I mean this is only something you'll learn through lots of experience, how computer handles strands of text but generally it's to do with how computer interprets text direction. And still many websites and forums have issues with that for example on this website you'll have to enter these codes : 

[ rtl] (text) [ /rtl] 
For example : 

یک دو سه four پنج
see four goes out of order but if I add that code it works fine 


یک دو سه four پنج


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## Alfaaz

Aryamp said:
			
		

> Standard Persian spoken in Iran is different from Dari Persian Spoken in Afghanistan. In Iran "و " is either pronounced like "o" similar as in english words "for , core "


 This pronunciation of و is referred to (in Urdu, at least) as مجہول _majhuul_: _"an epithet of the letters __و__ and __ي__, when the former has the sound of o in 'bone,' and the latter that of e in 'fête';"_

So کور could be a transliteration for the English word _core_, with an explicitly written zabar it would be _kaur_, and with an explicitly written pesh it would be _kuur_. Similarly for _phone_, فون is often used.


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## Treaty

Hi,

1-
 There is no rule how to distinguish between them. Sometimes they put a  ــُـ on the followed letter to indicate the /ow/ pronunciation. However, you probably need to distinguish them in the sentence context.
دور /dowr/ = around → دُور
دور /door/ = far

Anyway the modern pronunciation of پلو in Iran is /polow/ though in Dari the older pronunciation /palow/ may be still used.

2-
In Tehrani Presian, it is a longer version of /o/,  shorter than "o" in "sc*o*re" (in standard British accent). /o/ and /ow/ involve similar lip movements while in /u/ lips are projected forward like a kiss.  

3- 
If you are using texts (without numbers and brackets) there shouldn't be much difficulty. Here are a few suggestions:
- plan your writing to avoid editing
- avoid symbols like brackets around Persian words especially at beginning and end of paragraph, or between two Persian words.


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## Daffodil100

Thank you very much for both of your responses.

Aryamp,

What’s the pronunciation for /ow/ in پلو?

I listen to my audio file about پلو, and و sounds like [o:] , as “our” in four. 

[ rtl] ممنونم Thank you! Merci! [ /rtl] 

It works.

Do you delect the codes after the mixing inputs?


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## Daffodil100

Thank you, Treaty. I just see your post before my reply. Let me read it.


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## Aryamp

I pronounce پلو as "polo" both O's in it are pronounced the same way for me, only that the accent falls on the last syllable. (yes it's similar to ou in four)


This sound "ow" as in English "wow" or " down" does not exist for me.


Oh sorry about that code, actually I had to put space between the first brackets and the rest of the code so that the code wouldn't be parsed so you could read it! I was trying the find the code that commands the BBcode not to render the text inbetween but it didn't work so I gave up lol but apparently silly of me there's a full list of codes at the bottom of this page follow this link and it explains it all : 

http://forum.wordreference.com/misc.php?do=bbcode#noparse

So here's the actualy code without the spaces : 



[rtl] (text) [/rtl]





So the actual code disappears , and in order for it not to disappear in this text I used another code. (Also take note the code will not take effect before you save your post, alas!


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## Wolverine9

Aryamp said:


> I pronounce پلو as "polo" both O's in it are pronounced the same way for me, only that the accent falls on the last syllable. (yes it's similar to ou in four)
> 
> 
> This sound "ow" as in English "wow" or " down" does not exist for me.



I believe it is similar to the "ow" in English _mow _and _row_, though.


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## Daffodil100

Hi Aryamp,



I got it. rtl =right to left. It is a website language.

You're always very helpful.ممنونم. Thank you.


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## Qureshpor

Persian teaching materials give the present root of raftan to be "r*au*" (as in پیشرو the *au* being a diphthong) and not "ro" (a majhuul vowel). I believe it is the same case in the name خسرو. Is the -*au *in these and other words containing a diphthong pronounced in Modern speech as "*au*" or "*o*"?


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## OmidTavana

In Iranian Persian, there is a short o like in To=you or Do=2. There is a longer o like in Nó=new or Dó=present stem of to run. Ó is pronounced as in "no” or "go" in English, specially in compound words like "nóruz" and "Róhāni" vs ”dorāhi”=fork in a road, or "do bār”=two times. There is no au sound in modern Iranian as far as I know. Also Qom=قم a city near Tehran and Qóm=قوم


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## Qureshpor

OmidTavana said:


> In Iranian Persian, there is a short o like in To=you or Do=2. There is a longer o like in Nó=new or Dó=present stem of to run. Ó is pronounced as in "no” or "go" in English, specially in compound words like "nóruz" and "Róhāni" vs ”dorāhi”=fork in a road, or "do bār”=two times. There is no au sound in modern Iranian as far as I know. Also Qom=قم a city near Tehran and Qóm=قوم


Thank you, aaqaa-ye (xaanom-e) OmidTavana. Your reply is crystal clear apart from "Róhāni". Should n't this word be ruuHaanii (based on the Arabic word ruuH, soul)?

It seems the Classical diphthong au has become o (vaav-e-majhuul) in Iranian Persian. So, the majhuul vowels have not died in the modern language after all!


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## fdb

This is all slightly complicated, but it is made more complicated by imprecise terminology.

In CLASSICAL Persian you need to distinguish:
Short vowel /u/ (ḍamma) as in nuh ‘nine’
Long vowel /ū/ (wāw i maʻrūf) as in nūr ‘light’
Long vowel /ō/ (wāw i majhūl) as in bōy ‘fragrance’
Diphthong /aw/ as in raw ‘go!’

In AFGHAN formal Persian this four-way distinction is maintained at least in final syllables; in non-final syllables /ū/ merges with /ō/. There is also a fairly extensive merger of /ō/ with /aw/ in bookish words like /rawšan/ vs /rōšan/, perhaps under the influence of Indo-Persian.

In the MODERN WESTERN PERSIAN of Iran:
Classical /u/ becomes [o]
Classical /ū/ and /ō/ merge as 
Classical /aw/ becomes the diphthong [ou].
In Western Persian these are distinguished purely by quality, not by quantity (vowel length).


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## Jervoltage

fdb said:


> In the MODERN WESTERN PERSIAN of Iran:
> ...
> Classical /aw/ becomes the diphthong [ou].
> ...



In Tehrani dialect, at least, the classical diphthong sometimes becomes [o].


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## fdb

Jervoltage said:


> In Tehrani dialect, at least, the classical diphthong sometimes becomes [o].



Yes, but there is still an audible difference between the two vowels in برو [borou] "go!", don't you think?


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## Jervoltage

fdb said:


> Yes, but there is still an audible difference between the two vowels in برو [borou] "go!", don't you think?



Yes, if carefully articulated, but that is mostly not the case in conversation where you are more likely to hear [boro].


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## fdb

Thanks. Interesting.


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## OmidTavana

"Róhāni" is what is pronounced in Iran, though it comes from "Ruh".


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