# Is the Moon she? Is the Sun he?



## audiolaik

Hello,

Which pronoun can be used when talking about the Moon and the Sun?

I think I have read somewhere or other that the Moon is s_he_ and the Sun is _he. _The trouble is I cannot find the source to confirm or refute that claim.

Thank you!


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## Nunty

This may be true in figurative or poetic language (like the film _Brother Sun, Sister Moon_), but in everyday discourse, both are "it" as far as I know.


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## audiolaik

Nun-Translator said:


> This may be true in figurative or poetic language (like the film _Brother Sun, Sister Moon_),



That's what I meant!



Nun-Translator said:


> but in everyday discourse, both are "it" as far as I know.



I do know!

Thank you, Nun-Translator!


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## xqby

In poetic language you can get away with pretty much anything, so anthropomorphized celestial bodies are effectively hermaphroditic.

If you wanted to describe the sun as some sort of nurturing matron, causing the plants to grow and such, then probably "she."
If instead you wanted the sun as a prehistoric deity, ruling the skies with an iron fist, maybe "he"?

There's no real right or wrong answer for you here, I think.


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## audiolaik

xqby said:


> In poetic language you can get away with pretty much anything, so anthropomorphized celestial bodies are effectively hermaphroditic.
> 
> If you wanted to describe the sun as some sort of nurturing matron, causing the plants to grow and such, then probably "she."
> If instead you wanted the sun as a prehistoric deity, ruling the skies with an iron fist, maybe "he"?
> 
> There's no real right or wrong answer for you here, I think.



It is intriguing (at least for Polish students) since in my mother tongue _the Moon_ is masculine.

Anyway, thank you for your help!


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## Loob

Don't forget the Man in the Moon


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## audiolaik

Loob said:


> Don't forget the Man in the Moon



I will not, dear Loob!


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## Salvage

Latin with 

sol, solis m. sun
luna, lunae f. moon

matches up with audiolaik's memory.  But Latin is not English, observes Salvage.


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## audiolaik

Salvage said:


> sol, solis m. sun
> luna, lunae f. moon



This is what is called _a comprehensive explanation_!

Thank you, Salvage!


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## Thomas Tompion

W.S.Gilbert, or maybe his creature, Yum-Yum, took the view that the Sun was male and the moon female: Here's Yum-Yum's song to the sun and moon.  Gilbert was careful about such things.

The sun, whose rays are all ablaze with ever-living glory,
does not deny* his* majesty--*he* scorns to tell a story!

 that placid *dame*, the moon's celestial highness;
There's not a trace upon *her* face of diffidence or shyness:


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## audiolaik

Thomas Tompion said:


> W.S.Gilbert, or maybe his creature, Yum-Yum, took the view that the Sun was male and the moon female: Here's Yum-Yum's song to the sun and moon.  Gilbert was careful about such things.
> 
> The sun, whose rays are all ablaze with ever-living glory,
> does not deny* his* majesty--*he* scorns to tell a story!
> 
> that placid *dame*, the moon's celestial highness;
> There's not a trace upon *her* face of diffidence or shyness:



Thank you, TT, for your kind input!


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## Thomas Tompion

Milton takes the same view in Paradise Lost - 

Sometimes towards Heaven, and the full-blazing sun,
Which now sat high in *his *meridian tower:


There's that wonderful description of evening in Chapter Four which ends:

Hesperus, that led
The starry host, rode brightest, till the moon,
Rising in clouded majesty, at length
Apparent queen unveiled *her* peerless light,
And o'er the dark *her* silver mantle threw.


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## mjscott

I always thought of Venus and the moon as female heavenly bodies. In fact, I thought that in classic literature the moon was a representation of things feminine. I have an art piece that was made by a Native American that is called, "The Day the Raven Stole the Moon." He did it while he was caring for his dying mother, and I interpreted it to be the day the Giver of Life (the _raven_ in many Native American stories) took his mother away.

However, in non-emotional everyday English, the moon and sun are as nun-translator says--they are "its."


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## Loob

It's surprising, when you think about it, that the English-language poetic tradition should so clearly have the sun as male and the moon as female.  



> In Germanic mythology the Sun is female and the Moon is male.


  (Source)

I blame the Romans, myself.


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## ewie

Thomas Tompion said:


> W.S.Gilbert


 


Thomas Tompion said:


> Milton


Oh and don't forget Marc Almond, Audio, in *THIS SONG*


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## Moglet

It's not surprising to me that there seems to be some sort of unspoken convention where the Sun is referred to as a masculine entity and the Moon a feminine one. In classical mythology (Roman, Greek, and Egyptian), deities associated with the Sun tend to be gods, and those associated with the Moon goddesses. Such cultural influences can be very strong.


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## Niksam56

In the Persian literature and culture (Iranian) Sun and Moon both are female. They are she!


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## Malfatti

As a fledgling poet and writer, I usually call the sun he and the moon she. That's cool for me and as well for my readers.


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## Malfatti

Moglet said:


> It's not surprising to me that there seems to be some sort of unspoken convention where the Sun is referred to as a masculine entity and the Moon a feminine one. In classical mythology (Roman, Greek, and Egyptian), deities associated with the Sun tend to be gods, and those associated with the Moon goddesses. Such cultural influences can be very strong.



I strongly agree with your point of view!


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## Loob

Malfatti said:


> As a fledgling poet and writer, I usually call the sun he and the moon she. That's cool for me and as well for my readers.


Well, you're Italian, Malfatti, so that makes sense....


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## berndf

audiolaik said:


> I think I have read somewhere or other that the Moon is s_he_ and the Sun is _he._


This is so in Latin. In Germanic it is the other way round. Old English _mona_ is masculine and Old English _sunne_ is feminine. The classical hypothesis is that the gender follows the climate in which these languages developed: In the Mediterranean region, the sun is burning _hard_ (a masculine trait) and the moon is cool and _soft_ (a feminine trait). Germanic developed in the cold north where the sun is warm and soft and the moon is biting cold.

But I am sceptical. Why then is OE _dæg_ masculine and OE _niht_ feminine?


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## bearded

berndf said:


> the gender follows the climate in which these languages developed: In the Mediterranean region, the sun is burning _hard_ (a masculine trait) and the moon is cool and _soft_ (a feminine trait).


But in Arabic (and I'm sure in Arabia the sun does burn hard) the sun is feminine (_shams_) and the moon is masculine (_qamar_).
Very strange.


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## berndf

As I said:


berndf said:


> I am sceptical.



In Semitic languages the genders of sun and moon are sometimes variable within a language.


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## Penyafort

In the Romance languages, it's pretty clear that the Sun is male and the Moon is female. Spanish even has got a name for them: the Sun's name is Lorenzo and the Moon's is Catalina.

In the Germanic ones, as far as I know, it is the other way round. One can see it in German (die Sonne, feminine; der Mond, masculine) but it was also like this in such languages as English or Swedish that do not make the difference nowadays (Old English: *seo sunne*, feminine; *se mōna*, masculine | Old Norse: sólin, feminine; máninn, masculine). So, while in modern English influences from Latin and French might have changed the perception, tradition should have yielded a female Sun and a male Moon. As it has been said, the Man in the Moon could be related to this, as it might have come from a male personification of the moon god.


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## Sardokan1.0

If we look at the ancient mythologies :
*
Greek or Roman*
Arthemis / Diana - goddess of the Moon
Helios / Apollo - god of the Sun
*
Egyptian*
Isis - goddess of the Moon
Horus / Ra - god of the Sun

*Phoenician / Punic*
Ishtar / Astaroth / Tanith - goddess of the Moon
Baal - god of  the Sun


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## berndf

Sardokan1.0 said:


> *Phoenician / Punic*
> Ishtar / Astaroth / Tanith - goddess of the Moon
> Baal - god of the Sun


_Ba`al _simply means _Lord_. It was used as an honorific title for a variety of deities. Identifying_ Ba`al _as "the" sun God is an old die-hard myth. The Semitic pantheon had both, male and female sun dieties.

In Canaanite, _Šemeš/Šapaš_ was female. In Hebrew, šemeš is also a common noun for sun (cognate of Arabic _šams_) and can be both masculine and feminine but is mostly feminine.


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## apmoy70

To make it more complicated, in MoGr the moon is neuter, _φεγγάρι_ [feŋˈga.ɾi] from φέγγω [ˈfeŋ.go] < Classical Gr. φέγγω pʰéngō


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## Mercutio361

audiolaik said:


> Hello,
> 
> Which pronoun can be used when talking about the Moon and the Sun?
> 
> I think I have read somewhere or other that the Moon is s_he_ and the Sun is _he. _The trouble is I cannot find the source to confirm or refute that claim.
> 
> Thank you!


Sometimes if you are using a particular culture's mythology then you would have to go by whether a god or goddess is associated with the sun or moon.


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