# Hindi/Urdu: baanii बानी



## lafz_puchnevala

Hi,

English translation for this says 'promoter', while one meaning in Hindi suggests 'kisii kaam ko shuruu karne vala', to mean 'a person who starts something'?

How would one use this?

Thanks!


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## Faylasoof

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Hi,
> 
> English translation for this says 'promoter', while one meaning in Hindi suggests 'kisii kaam ko shuruu karne vala', to mean 'a person who starts something'?
> 
> How would one use this?
> 
> Thanks!


Interestingly we have two meanings of _baanii_ !

H باني बानी _bānī_ [S. *वाणी*, rt. वण्], s.f. Sound, note, voice;  speech, word, language, discourse; precept, doctrine; sectarian verses  of mendicants; name of the goddess of speech (_Sarasvatī_);—adj. (used in comp.), voiced, tongued, &c. (e.g. _amr̤it-bānī_).

… and,

A *باني bānī *(act. part. of بني 'to build,' &c.), s.m. Builder, architect, framer, *founder, author, composer, inventor, contriver*; source, origin; beginner, *instigator*; _bānī-kār_, s.m. Builder, &c.=_bānī_;—adj. & s.m. Skilful, clever, expert (in, -_meṅ_), astute;—consummate rogue, clever rascal; swindler, sharper:—_bānī-kārī_, s.f. Building, architecture; composition; commencing a business; instigation; astuteness; rascality.

It seems it is the second meaning you are looking for.

_suqraaT, aflaaTuun aur arasTuu ( = arasTuuTaaliis) bil-xuSuuS yuunaanii falsafe aur 3umuuman maghribii falsafe ke baanii maane jaate haiN_

_Socrates, Plato and Aristotle are considered the founders __/ originators __of Greek philosophy in particular and western philosophy in general.   _


_suqraaT, aflaaTuun aur arasTuu ( = arasTuuTaaliis) bil-xuSuuS yunaanii falsafe aur 3umuuman maghribii falsafe ke baaniyaan* meN shumaar haiN_

_Socrates, Plato and Aristotle are counted amongst the founders __/ originators __ of  Greek philosophy in particular and western philosophy generally_.   


* _baaniyaan_ is the Persian plural form of _baanii_, and means the same as the Prakrit pluralization of _baaniyoN_, here.


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> _suqraaT, aflaaTuun aur arasTuu ( = *arasTuuTaaliis*) bil-xuSuuS yuunaanii falsafe aur 3umuuman maghribii falsafe ke baanii maane jaate haiN _



For a moment I thought this was an alternative way for representing the number 48!


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## marrish

Hilarious!!!


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> 
> _suqraaT, aflaaTuun aur arasTuu ( = *arasTuuTaaliis*) bil-xuSuuS yuunaanii falsafe aur 3umuuman maghribii falsafe ke baanii maane jaate haiN _
> 
> 
> 
> For a moment I thought this was an alternative way for representing the number 48!
Click to expand...

Hmm... let me do some research and see if there is indeed a link! 

_ek baani-e-falsafah thhaa arasTuuTaaliis
niklaa aSl meN woh ek mabda-e-aRtaaliis_


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## JaiHind

lafz_puchnevala said:


> Hi, English translation for this says 'promoter', while one meaning in Hindi suggests 'kisii kaam ko shuruu karne vala', to mean 'a person who starts something'? How would one use this? Thanks!



If it means "promoter or person who starts a work", and is indeed a Hindi word, then it must not be in common use. I have never heard its usage in Hindi.


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## BP.

A word similarly derived from b-n-y, _binaa _might also mean foundation or _bunyaad_. E.g. _kisii chiiz kii binaa Daalnaa_.


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## lafz_puchnevala

BelligerentPacifist said:


> A word similarly derived from b-n-y, _binaa _might also mean foundation or _bunyaad_. E.g. _kisii chiiz kii binaa Daalnaa_.


In Hindi, 'bina' means without.


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## Alfaaz

> In Hindi, 'bina' means without.



In Urdu, there are two similar sounding words: binaa is derived from Sanskirt (the one mentioned by you) and the other: binaa' is derived from Arabic (mentioned by BelligerentPacifist)...


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## UrduMedium

There's an eerie resemblance between the Arabic root (_bana _ب ن ی, to build) that leads to _baanii, _and Urdu/Hindi _banaanaa _(make/build). 

I suppose this will be in the coincidence category?

Your thoughts?


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> There's an eerie resemblance between the Arabic root (_bana _ب ن ی, to build) that leads to _baanii, _and Urdu/Hindi _banaanaa _(make/build).
> 
> I suppose this will be in the coincidence category?
> 
> Your thoughts?


 It is indeed in the coincidence category just as the Urdu-Hindi _banaanaa_ and the English _banana_! 
noun 
بنانا बनाना _banaanaa _ is the causative of بنا बन्ना _bannā_. Platts has this from Prakrit -> Sanskrit:
H بننا बन्ना, बनना _bannā_ [_ban˚_ = Prk. वण(इ)=S. वन्य(ते), pass. of rt. वन्], v.n. To be made, constructed, built; to be created, formed, fashioned, produced, fabricated, invented; to be prepared, got ready, be done, finished or completed; to be cooked or dressed; to be managed, executed, effected; to be composed; to be mended, repaired, or adjusted: to be improved, be made presentable, palatable, &c.; to be established, be set up; to be, become; to happen, befall, betide; to be as, become as or like (see _ban-kar_); .....


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## UrduMedium

Faylasoof said:


> It is indeed in the coincidence category just as the Urdu-Hindi _banaanaa_ and the English _banana_!


 True. But I tried to bring to your kind attention the fact that it is just not phonetic similarity in the two verbs (Arabic بنی bana/Urdu بنا banaa), but the two meanings are also very similar/close (hence eerie!). Something that's not the case when comparing _banaanaa _with the English banana.


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## Faylasoof

UrduMedium said:


> True. But I tried to bring to your kind attention the fact that it is just not phonetic similarity in the two verbs (Arabic بنی bana/Urdu بنا banaa), but the two meanings are also very similar/close (hence eerie!). Something that's not the case when comparing _banaanaa _with the English banana.


 I of course saw your point exactly! Our _banaanaa_ and the Arabic root -b-n-y -> bana are just (as you put it) eerily close! Interesting coincidence.


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## greatbear

Faylasoof said:


> Interestingly we have two meanings of _baanii_ !
> 
> H باني बानी _bānī_ [S. *वाणी*, rt. वण्], s.f. Sound, note, voice;  speech, word, language, discourse; precept, doctrine; sectarian verses  of mendicants; name of the goddess of speech (_Sarasvatī_);—adj. (used in comp.), voiced, tongued, &c. (e.g. _amr̤it-bānī_).



Well, I've never heard "baanii" for speech in Hindi, and if someone were to do it, then that person would come across to me as speaking the Awadhi dialect, the kind that Tulsidas uses. In the Hindi usually spoken and understood, it's "vaaNii"* (**वाणी).*


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## greatbear

lafz_puchnevala said:


> In Hindi, 'bina' means without.



"binaa" meaning "foundation, basis" is used in Hindi as well: e.g., "sabuut ke binaa par ..." (on the basis of proof)


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> Interestingly we have two meanings of _baanii_ !
> H باني बानी _bānī_ [S. *वाणी*, rt. वण्], s.f. Sound, note,  voice;  speech, word, language, discourse; precept, doctrine; sectarian  verses  of mendicants; name of the goddess of speech (_Sarasvatī_);—adj. (used in comp.), voiced, tongued, &c. (e.g. _amr̤it-bānī_).
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I've never heard "baanii" for speech in Hindi, and if someone were to do it, then that person would come across to me as speaking the Awadhi dialect, the kind that Tulsidas uses. In the Hindi usually spoken and understood, it's "vaaNii"* (**वाणी).*
Click to expand...

 I do recall Awadhi speakers using _baanii _but mostly they were from Lucknow anyway so perhaps Urdu influence! I mean the other _baanii_:
A *باني bānī *(act. part. of بني 'to build,' &c.), s.m. Builder, architect, framer, *founder, author, composer, inventor, contriver*; source, origin; beginner, *instigator*; 

So you hear it in expressions like dange-fasaad kaa baanii = dange-fasaad kii jaR = the "cause" / root of discord. 

But true, I too haven't heard this 2nd meaning Platts gives (H باني बानी _bānī_ [S. *वाणी*, rt. वण्], s.f. Sound, note,  voice;  speech, word, language, discourse) from my travels around UP.


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## UrduMedium

greatbear said:


> "binaa" meaning "foundation, basis" is used in Hindi as well: e.g., "sabuut ke binaa par ..." (on the basis of proof)



Again, very interesting. As binaa' means just about the same (basis, formation, framework, etc) in Arabic. See here.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> "binaa" meaning "foundation, basis" is used in Hindi as well: e.g., "sabuut ke binaa par ..." (on the basis of proof)


You should be careful about your spellings. But I am sure this one is not the case of a typo, it is no less than leading a learner astray by providing wrong information. Otherwise, I'm ready to accept that there is this large divergence between Hindi and the original Urdu. You are mistaken as to the grammatical gender, to make things worse.


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## Qureshpor

UrduMedium said:


> Again, very interesting. As binaa' means just about the same (basis, formation, framework, etc) in Arabic. See here.



No need to be so "hakkaa-bakkaa", UM jii. The path taken for words of Arabic origins is: Arabic > Persian > Urdu > Hindi.


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## Qureshpor

UM jii, they are two separate words. 

H بنا बिना _binā [S. विना], prep. & postp. Without, &c.=bin, q.v.

and

_A بنا _binā (inf. n. of بني), s.f. Building, structure, edifice; foundation, basis, base; ground, footing, motive; root, source, origin; beginning, commencement:—binā-bar, prep. On account of, owing to, by reason of (=barāʼe; liye);—binā-bar-īn, adv. On this account, for this reason, therefore, with this view or intent:—binā ḍālnā (-kī), To lay the foundation (of), to found, establish; to begin, originate, start, set on foot.

For the Arabic, the verb is "banaa2" (written with a ye at the end like lailaa). Its nouns are "binaa2" (2=hamzah) and bunyaan. The agent is "baanii" (faa3il) and the "occupation" word is "bannaa2" (mason/builder). Another noun is "binaayah". You will also have come across "mabnii".

aap kis binaa par puuchh rahe haiN kih bannaa3 kaa kyaa banaa?_


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## UrduMedium

QURESHPOR said:


> No need to be so "hakkaa-bakkaa", UM jii. The path taken for words of Arabic origins is: Arabic > Persian > Urdu > Hindi.



QP jii- Thank you for the correction. I mistook this _binaa_ (one GB quoted) to be related to _banaanaa _(see post #12)_,_ rather than Arabic _binaa_'.


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> You should be careful about your spellings. But I am sure this one is not the case of a typo, it is no less than leading a learner astray by providing wrong information. Otherwise, I'm ready to accept that there is this large divergence between Hindi and the original Urdu. You are mistaken as to the grammatical gender, to make things worse.



Excuse me, which spellings and which gender do you mean? I don't see anything wrong in my post!


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> marrish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greatbear said:
> 
> 
> 
> "binaa" meaning "foundation, basis" is used in Hindi as well: e.g., "*sabuut ke binaa par ..." (on the basis of proof*)
> 
> 
> 
> You should be careful about your spellings. But I am sure this one is not the case of a typo, it is no less than leading a learner astray by providing wrong information. Otherwise, I'm ready to accept that there is this large divergence between Hindi and the original Urdu. You are mistaken as to the grammatical gender, to make things worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Excuse me, which spellings and which gender do you mean? I don't see anything wrong in my post!
Click to expand...


Sorry I wasn't clear enough in my first post! _بناء binaa बिना_ is a feminine noun, so it takes _*kii*_, never _*ke*_.
The expression you had intended to give should read as follows:
_
ثبوت کی بناء پر۔۔۔ subuut kii binaa' par... सुबूत* की बिना पर


*I know in Hindi it is commonly spelled सबूत._


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear enough in my first post! _بناء binaa बिना_ is a feminine noun, so it takes _*kii*_, never _*ke*_.
> The expression you had intended to give should read as follows:
> _
> ثبوت کی بناء پر۔۔۔ subuut kii binaa' par... सुबूत* की बिना पर
> 
> 
> *I know in Hindi it is commonly spelled सबूत._



Well, in Hindi at least (now I guess Faylasoof would know why I say this always, very opportune time to bring it up), it's masculine! I've never heard "sabuut kii binaa par".


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> Well, in Hindi at least (now I guess Faylasoof would know why I say this always, very opportune time to bring it up), it's masculine! I've never heard "sabuut kii binaa par".



Thanks for the clarification. Now at least I know it was surely not a typo in your post. I need not repeat what I said in my first reaction (excluding what I said about the typo).


1. *सबूत की बिना पर* - Siyasat Daily
2. इसीलिए वे कायनुभूषि *की बिना पर* वर्ग-संधर्ष, मनोरंजन, सामाजिक वैषम्य[...] - Bhisham Sahni
3. तो रानी से भावों *की बिना पर* उलझे बगैर [...] Krishan Chander-ek karoR kii botal
4. मुझे विजिटिंग काई भेजकर बोद्ध जरूरी काम *की बिना पर* मुझसे मिलना चाहा Khushvant Singh
5. आर्थिक मंदी *की बिना पर* मांगी जमानत - Navbharat Times
6. अनुभव और अन्य कारकों *की बिना पर* निगम समय-समय पर देय सरेंडर वैल्यू की समीक्षा करता है. Life Insurance Corporation of India
7. इस तस्वीर *की बिना पर* दो संदिग्ध लोगों को हिरासत में लिया है NDTV News

and here, *subuut* kii binaa par...

8. फिर फ़ोटो के सुबूत की बिना पर हमें पीटा - http://anunaad.blogspot.com/2009/12/blog-post_16.html


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## greatbear

marrish said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Now at least I know it was surely not a typo in your post. I need not repeat what I said in my first reaction (excluding what I said about the typo).
> 
> 
> 1. *सबूत की बिना पर* - Siyasat Daily
> 2. इसीलिए वे कायनुभूषि *की बिना पर* वर्ग-संधर्ष, मनोरंजन, सामाजिक वैषम्य[...] - Bhisham Sahni
> 3. तो रानी से भावों *की बिना पर* उलझे बगैर [...] Krishan Chander-ek karoR kii botal
> 4. मुझे विजिटिंग काई भेजकर बोद्ध जरूरी काम *की बिना पर* मुझसे मिलना चाहा Khushvant Singh
> 5. आर्थिक मंदी *की बिना पर* मांगी जमानत - Navbharat Times
> 6. अनुभव और अन्य कारकों *की बिना पर* निगम समय-समय पर देय सरेंडर वैल्यू की समीक्षा करता है. Life Insurance Corporation of India
> 7. इस तस्वीर *की बिना पर* दो संदिग्ध लोगों को हिरासत में लिया है NDTV News
> 
> and here, *subuut* kii binaa par...
> 
> 8. फिर फ़ोटो के सुबूत की बिना पर हमें पीटा - http://anunaad.blogspot.com/2009/12/blog-post_16.html



I often get the impression that the sole purpose of some of the members here is to discredit others rather than having a proper discussion. "kii binaa" might very well exist; however, "ke binaa" exists as well and not just few and far between but with a very healthy spread across the spectrum of Hindi and Urdu speakers. Some examples for you (and if you wish to, you can find more), and note that some of the below examples are taken from widely read newspapers.

Interestingly, in case you know how to search on Google, "के बिना पर" gives around 40,000 search results, whereas "की बिना पर" gives only 12,500 results: the statistical argument is certainly in the former's favour.

The examples:

1. पुलिस अमरसिंह को जिस सबूत *के बिना पर *इस मामले में अभियुक्त बना रही थी, वह सबूत ही उसके पास नहीं है।   khaskhabar.com
2. आदर्श लोकतंत्र में राजनीतिक दल और नेता पूरी तरह सुशासन के वायदे *के बिना पर* ही गद्दी संभालते हैं।   thesundayindian.in
3. और माहे रमज़ान के बाद रोज़े की कजा भी           करे और                    अगर जोहर के बाद मुतवज्जह हो की रमज़ान का महीना है तो एहतियात के बिना पर           यही हुक्म                    है और अगर ज़ोंहर से पहले मुतवज्जह हो तो कोई ऐसा काम भी न किया होजो           रोज़े को                    बातिल करता हो तो उसका रोज़ा सही है   islaminhindi.org
4. उल्लेखनीय है कि शक के बिना पर गिरफ्तार आरोपियों ... tarunchhatisgarh.com
5. महारों-दलितों में किसी शक के बिना पर, बच्चा न पैदा होने की स्थिति में, या फिर अकारण ही अपनी औरतों को छोड़  देने की परंपरा घर कर गई है।   from a literary paper!
6. पुलिस की रिपोर्ट के बिना पर आरोपी सैन्यकर्मी के विरुद्ध कार्रवाई की तैयारी की जा रही है।   amarujala.com
7. इंसानों ने भी आपस में मतभेद के बिना पर अपने अपने धर्म में राह निकाली।   newageislam.com

I would advise you to think twice in the future before simply saying that a thing spoken by a native speaker doesn't exist: we breath in this language, it is not something we learnt from taking dictionaries as our bibles. We communicate our emotions and thoughts in it.


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## marrish

greatbear said:


> "ke binaa" exists as well and *not just few* and far between *but with a very healthy spread across the spectrum of Hindi and Urdu speakers*. Some examples for you (and if you wish to, you can find more), and note that some of the below examples are taken from widely read newspapers.
> 
> Interestingly, in case you know how to search on Google, "के बिना पर" gives around 40,000 search results, whereas "की बिना पर" gives only 12,500 results: the statistical argument is certainly in the former's favour.


Because of scarcity of time let me elaborate further on Hindi and on the examples (both yours and mine) later.

In order to promote well argumented discussion I shall respond now on behalf of Urdu speakers, and I hoped you take my already expressed opinion for granted, me being a ''native'' Urdu speaker. In case you can't, then please expand your ability to google it yourself by copying and pasting it in your browser what follows:

_"کے بنا پر" (ke binaa par)
"کی بنا پر" (kii binaa par)

_Can you please provide the number of hits for each?


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