# 'To lead' x 4 ?



## ThomasK

'S/he leads his country.'
'S/he leads the government.'
'S/he leads the people to that country.'
'The decision leads to a loss of jobs.'

These are all OK in English, I think, and in Dutch. I just wonder: can you translate the four sentences using the same verb ? (Why not ?)


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## sakvaka

In *Finnish* we can: the verb is _johtaa_.

_Hän johtaa maataan._ 
_Hän johtaa hallitusta._ 
_Hän johtaa kansan tuohon maahan._ 
_Tämä päätös johtaa työpaikkojen vähenemiseen._
___
* http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/johtaa


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## Maroseika

In Russian this is impossible.
To lead some organization - возглавлять (from the word глава - head)
To lead smb. or to smth. - вести (to guide, to move).


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## apmoy70

In Greek it is possible to use the same verb for all four, but it is not used (if you do it, it is a signal you don't speak the language well  ). One can use the verb «οδηγώ» (oðiɣ*o*, to lead) or «καθοδηγώ» (kaθoðiɣ*o*, to lead toward a specific way) but it sounds unnatural. 
-S/he leads his/her country->Άρχω (*a*rxo, to rule) is more appropriate.
-S/he leads the government->Προεδρεύω (proeðr*e*vo, to preside), or «τίθεμαι επικεφαλής» (t*i*θeme epikefal*i*s, to be put as the head in order to lead the way).
-S/he leads the people to that country->Καθοδηγώ (kaθoðiɣ*o*, to lead toward a specific way).
-The decision leads to a loss of jobs->Προκαλώ (prokal*o*, to bring about)
[ð] is a voiced dental non-sibilant fricative
[ɣ] is a voiced velar fricative
[θ] is a voiceless dental non-sibilant fricative
[x] is a voiceless velar fricative, known as the hard ch


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## ThomasK

Maroseika said:


> In Russian this is impossible.
> To lead some organization - возглавлять (from the word глава - head)
> To lead smb. or to smth. - вести (to guide, to move).


 
Could you tell me how you translate the last sentence then, Maroseika? What word (metaphor ?) do you use ? 

Do I understand correctly that l_eading _and _leading to_ are translated differently? Indeed, apparently the latter seems to refer to guiding, but with us the implication is that you are the leader and show the way - and the 'followers' must follow you because they do not know where to go to. Otherwise we would say : _rond-leiden_/ show around, I think. 

We have a separate word in Dutch: gids/ guide (whereas in German 'führen' is used in all cases, I think).


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## ThomasK

sakvaka said:


> In *Finnish* we can: the verb is _johtaa_.
> 
> _Hän johtaa maataan._
> _Hän johtaa hallitusta._
> _Hän johtaa kansan tuohon maahan._
> _Tämä päätös johtaa työpaikkojen vähenemiseen._
> ___
> * http://en.wiktionary..org/wiki/johtaa


 
The Fins get the first prize;-): even conducting electricity can be expressed using johtaa, whereas we need a prefix in Dutch (_geleiden)_


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## Awwal12

> Could you tell me how you translate the last sentence then, Maroseika? What word (metaphor ?) do you use ?


I hope *Maroseika* wouldn't be offended if I'll give the answer. 

'The decision leads to a loss of jobs.' - Это решение* приводит* к уменьшению количества рабочих мест.

I've used the verb *приводить*; its root is actually the same as in the verb *вести*, but transformed, and the prefix "_при_-" is added.


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## ThomasK

Awwal12 said:


> I've used the verb *приводить*; its root is actually the same as in the verb *вести*, but transformed, and the prefix "_при_-" is added.


 
Aha, so they have the same root, something like lead, I guess... Right ?


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> Could you tell me how you translate the last sentence then, Maroseika? What word (metaphor ?) do you use ?


Well, *Awwal12* has already translated. As to the very stem, it's rather intersting. 
It derivates from PIE *ued-no, like Ancient Indian  _vadhū́ṣ _- 'bride, wife, young woman', and has cognates in the European languages, such as, for example:
Ancient Prussian _weddē _'to marry'
English _wedding 

_I.e. originallyit meant_ '_to steal a woman to marry her' or maybe 'to take a bribe to her new home'. At least this is opinion of Vasmer and Chernykh, contradicting to etymonline.com, considering this sense 'to marry" as unique for English.
Interesting Slavic derivate is _veno _- dowry (Chernykh, but not Vasmer).

Of course, no Slavic native feels now any connection between this word and bribes, though in Russian there are or were quite clear derivates (unless these are later derivations):
Ancient Russian водимая, веденица (lit. 'a woman who is taken away') - bribe, wife
Russian взять жену уводом (lit. 'to marry by taking away') - to marry a girl against her parents will.

But, answering your question, original metaphor was like that: to take a bride to her new home > to take (guide) somebody somewhere.


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## ThomasK

Good Lord, what a story, impressive ! (When we _gidsen_/ guide, there is nothing romantic about that, and no bribes either ;-))


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## Maroseika

ThomasK said:


> When we _gidsen_/ guide, there is nothing romantic about that, and no bribes either ;-)


Yes, you just show the way, because you know the way (cf. German _weisen_, OE _witan _'to see, to know). So _gidsen _/ _guide _are relatives of English _wise _and _wit_.


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## ThomasK

I knew about that link between _wise/wit/ _Dutch _weten_, but I am quite surprised to read that _guide_ had to do with that...But indeed, confirmed by etymology-online !


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## Maroseika

The scheme is mentioned here: http://cnrtl.fr/etymologie/guide , namely: du got. *_widan, _attesté dans le dér. *ga-widan *« attacher, atteler ensembl.

Isn't this amazing - pure Germanic prefix and Germanic root return to the Germanic languages thru the French language as quite new word, unrecognizable for the old proprietors!


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## ThomasK

It sure is ! Now in the meantime I discovered that Dutch _leiden_ is a causative of _lijden_, normally suffering, but also (very old meaning) going - as is shown in the word _verleden_ (past in Dutch: what has gone by), and _geleden_, als in _lang geleden_, long ago (-GO!). Oh, yes, life - and etymology - is full of surprises...


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## Hakro

ThomasK said:


> The Fins get the first prize;-): even conducting electricity can be expressed using johtaa, whereas we need a prefix in Dutch (_geleiden)_


Besides, the Finnish verb _johtaa_ can be translated into English (or vice versa) in many different ways, depending on the context. For example the following *verbs*:

to administer, astray, betray, boss, bypass, captain, carry, be in the chair, be in charge, clew, clue, command, conduce, conduct, convey, deduce, delude, derive, determine, detract, direct, disorient, drain, educe, engineer, eventuate, evolve, fight, funnel, give, go, govern, guide, head, induct, infer, land, lead, make, manage, master, moderate, officer, open, operate, overlook, oversee, pilot, pipe, pipeline, preface, preside, propagate, quarterback, redirect, reflux, result, seduce, shunt, sidetrack, skipper, span, spearhead, superintend, supervise, trace, translate, transmit, be up, wilder...

... can be translated into Finnish using the verb _johtaa_. Of course we have other equivalents for most of these verbs.


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## ThomasK

Then I wonder how the Fins can understand one another, but I suppose the context helps a great deal. Are you still aware of the fact that you are using one and the same verb? (I think a lot of Dutch speakers do not realize that _leiden_ (a-c) and _leiden_ tot (d) are linked...)


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## Hakro

ThomasK said:


> Then I wonder how the Fins can understand one another, but I suppose the context helps a great deal. Are you still aware of the fact that you are using one and the same verb?


As I said, we have different Finnish equivalents for most of these verbs, but in *certain* *contexts* these English verbs are translated using the verb _johtaa_.

On the other hand I wonder how the English speakers can understand each other. How do they know for example about these words (without context), are they verbs or nouns, or sometimes even adjectives or adverbs. It's impossible.


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## federicoft

In Italian you can theoretically use _condurre _to translate all those four meanings, but this would really be straining the sense of the word.
These are the verbs that you would be more likely to use for each of the four sentences:
(1) _guidare, comandare_
(2) _presiedere, guidare _
(3) _guidare, condurre_
(4) _portare, condurre_


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## rusita preciosa

Maroseika said:


> to take a bribe to her new home > to take (guide) somebody somewhere.


Bride?


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## ThomasK

I was about to conclude that _leiden_ cannot be used in some languages because the subject is non-human, but I think _portare_ originally required a human subject too. Bit I guess some verbs move towards a figurative meaning, and others don't, and that is different in every language...

_Bribe_: I had thought the bride or her father  had been bribed into marriage... ;-)


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## Maroseika

rusita preciosa said:


> Bride?


Sure. Already corrected. Thanks.


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## enoo

In *French*:
Leading a country/government/organisation is _diriger_.
Leading someone is _mener_. 
Leading to a place is _mener_ (or sometimes _amener_).
Leading to some consequences is _entraîner_.

Some examples in context:
He leads this country. : Il _dirige_ ce pays.
He leads the government. : Il _dirige_ le gouvernement.
He leads the people to that country. : Il _mène_ les gens vers ce pays.
The decision leads to a loss of jobs. : La décision _entraîne_ des pertes d'emplois.
He's leading us to disaster/to failure : Il nous _mène_ au désastre/à l'échec. (to lead to a "state of being" is _mener à_)


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## ThomasK

So the difference between _mener_ and _diriger_ is based on the object: one person or several individuals requires _mener_. Or is the difference based on the style (more formal _diriger_, more literal _mener_) ? 

How about : _ça mène à_, or _ça emmène des pertes d'emplois_. Too literal ? (Just trying...)


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## ThomasK

Just one observation for the time being: I think the different lead translations are not perfect synonyms because/ in that they emphasize one aspect: 
- I suppose Greek and Russian focus on the *heading* (the brain, or the most important person - but what the link is between beginning and leading (archo) is not so clear to me: the initiative ?)
- Dutch/ English focus on the walking, the *path* : making walk
- maybe *knowing* is implied to (in Russian and in French) : one person knows what is right (di-rig-er, di-rect-ion)... 
(No idea about Finnish: it seems the most general, or does it refer back to one specific basic meaning?)
Or are they more interwoven than I can see? 

For example: *guiding *and *leading* sound differently to me (connotation-wise). I follow a guide of my own accord, hoping for knowledge, where leading implies an idea of force...


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## enoo

ThomasK said:


> So the difference between _mener_ and _diriger_ is based on the object: one person or several individuals requires _mener_. Or is the difference based on the style (more formal _diriger_, more literal _mener_) ?


*Diriger* can be translated by to lead, to direct, to manage, to show the way, to give direction. So you can use "diriger" for persons, it means to be the "head" of those persons. Diriger can also be use to say to lead to some place, in that case it mostly means that one just show the direction. E.g: Je l'ai dirigé vers le bureau de poste - I show him the way to the post office (but I didn't go there myself).

*Mener* also has a "show the direction" meaning, but with a little less "I'm the boss / I show you the way from afar" overtone. It implies a that one will show the way not only by pointing at it, but by walking along that way too, to be a guide. 
E.g: Le fermier _mène_ les vaches _au_ pré - The farmer leads the cows to the field. (Using "diriger" here would sound rather weird.) 
Il les a _menés à_ la terre promise - He led them to the promised land.



ThomasK said:


> How about : _ça mène à_, or _ça emmène des pertes d'emplois_. Too literal ? (Just trying...)


It's possible to say "Ça mène à des pertes d'emploi", it's just a different way to say it. In general it's "Une cause entraîne une conséquence." - "A cause leads to a consequence", but "mener à" can work.

I must admit I'm not really sure of the use case of amener and emmener. I know when to use them but I don't know how to explain it well (there was some threads about it on the English-French forum, this one is maybe the best http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=25854 )

(Ahah, I wrote most of this message before lunch, and I see now that you noticed the heading/walking the path difference too in other languages  )


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