# Persian: Rumi poems



## aisha93

Hi everybody,

I read a translated-poem for Rumi (Mevlana) in English and want the original Persian context.

The Sonnet is named "every craftsman" which I quote part of it:

_I've said before that every craftsman
searches for what's not there
to practice his craft.
A builder looks  for the rotten hole
where the roof caved in. A water-carrier
picks the  empty pot. A carpenter
stops at the house with no door._

The problem is that neither the number nor the title of the sonnet is mentioned in Persian. I want to read the original Persian text. If you could figure out what sonnet is it, tell me please.


*Moreover, I need Persian explanation/interpretation for Rumi poems. 
I searched a lot but found nothing. I only found some for Hafiz. 

If you know any sites/blogs please write them down cause I am in need of them. Although I can understand most of the Persian poems and almost all of the words, but still some verses aren't clear and have some metaphors or latent meanings which I can't understand fully.*

_I am sorry if my thread violates the Forum's rules but I am in urgent need of what I asked.

Thanks,_


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## Phosphorus

Hi Aisha,

I searched it here is the original Persian text of your given translation:
*گفته شد که هر صناعت‌گر که رست
*

*در صناعت جایگاه نیست جست*


*جست بنا موضعی ناساخته*


*گشته ویران سقفها انداخته*



*جست سقا کوزای کش آب نیست*

*وان دروگر خانه‌ای کش باب نیست*

The name of this poem is "ranjvar" in Persian ("رنجور", note that another pronunciation is "ranjur" but its significance is different than "ranjvar", however they both come from the same root).

Here is a link to the complete poem in Persian: http://ganjoor.net/moulavi/masnavi/daftar6/sh44/

In order to search classic (often _mystic_) Persian poetry, this site is what I highly recommend: http://ganjoor.net

And regarding interpretations of "Mawlana" poetry, I have to confess that the _true_ meanings of them are a little bit hard to be found over there. Because most commentators often tend to see Mawlana, as well as other Iranian mystics who were also outstanding poets, as sheer monotheists and real adherents of Islam. While they are, to my ken, are better to be considered as _true_ adherents of Islam. There is a wide gap between the _reality_ and the *truth*, from a mystic viewpoint.

I will search some sources in Persian for this regard and will keep you posted, but eventually I recommend to peruse modern Western theosophist in order to understand mystical Persian poetry of the medieval age. You can try works of Helena Blavatsky, for instance. One you understood theosophy, you will understand every single line of Mowlana or Hafiz' poems.

By the way Mawlana's poetry, as opposed to that of Hafiz, is less complicated. While every single verse of Hafiz' Diwan might possess even 3 different and justifiable interpretations:

پیر ما گفت خطا بر قلم صنع نرفت
آفرین بر نظر پاک خطاپوشش باد




"Our esoteric master said: "there nothing wrong with the creation (of God)" 
[And I say] bravo [and God bless] his overlooking vision [that does not point out all these deficiencies in the creation!]"


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## Phosphorus

Surely you can speak Persian fluently; but, due to the historical language* of the poem, here is my try for Romanization of it:

Gofte shod ke har sanaa'atgar ke rost

Dar sanaa'at jaayegaahe nist jost

Jost bannaa mowze'i naasaakhte

Gashte viraan, saqfhaa andaakhte

Jost saqqaa kuzei kash aab nist

Vaan dorugar khaanei kash baab nist

*In Mawlana's poetry there are a few times some drastic differences between his pronunciations and the current ones: "سخن" or "خور". The current pronunciations of these words are "sokhan" and "khor" respectively. But in Mawlana's poems they sometimes appear as "sakhon" and "khwar" (note that these later pronunciations are also historically correct):

آب می خوردی به صحرا سبز و تر
بهر این آتش بدست آن آبخور

Aab mikhordi be sahraa sabzo tar
Bahre in aatash bodast aan aabkhwar


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## fdb

This is of course not a "sonnet" nor a complete poem of any sort, but a short extract from his Masnavi, a long didactic-narrative book.


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## aisha93

*Phosphorus*

Thank you so much dear professor for your time and effort. Really appreciate it.

What makes Persian poems difficult for me is that the letters are not marked (I mean they are not shown with the Tashkil/Harakat > which show the correct pronunciation) that is: فَتْحَة/كَسْرَة/ضَمَّة.

For example the verse:  *گفته شد که هر صناعت‌گر که رست* Gofte shod ke har sanaa'atgar ke rost, at first glance I couldn't guess the word رست whether its coming from the Verb Root رَستن or رُستن but when I saw your Latin alphabet I could know it. Although this sentence is not hard to guess but sometimes whatever I do I can't understand the meaning.

============================================================

Concerning the word "ranjvar" I found only رنجبر in (loghatnameh dehkhoda) as: کارگر. صنعتگر. پیشه ور. But I guess this is the same word since the letters "v" and "b" are interchangeable in Farsi.

 I noticed that from my father's dialect (which is called Achomi Persian)

In Achomi Persian the word "b" is sometimes replaced by the word "v" for example:
آب = آو
خواب = خواو
تابستون=تاوستون
آفتاب= آفتاو
باز= واز
And many other words. 

Here you can read about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajami_dialect
Also here: http://gapolap.blogfa.com/

I have a question for you (since you are Kurdish). Is the verb "Achom" used in Kurdish language?
If you read the first link (wikipedia link) you would notice that the word Achom in Achomi Dialect is used as the word رفتن in Formal Farsi. For example we say:

Achom or Achem (in some accents) which means "let's go" or "بریم" in Farsi.
Meh Chedom or Mah Chedam > I went > من رفتم
Ocho or Ocha > Go > برو
Mo Achom or ema achem > ما می رویم

I read in wikipedia that in Kurdish Dialects you use the same word for the verb رفتن:


Ez diçim/Min deçim/Mi meçim/Mi çim/Man ravam. 


So is if the word (Achom) a loanword from Kurdish language? Since its root is not Persian. If it is so, then it is a very strange thing since Kurds are far away (in western north) from the people of Hormozgan and Fars who spoke Achomi Dialect!


I have some more questions but I will wait till you answer these first. I hope I am not bothering you by my questions. But I'm a very beginner in linguistics and I am still learning the basics.


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## Phosphorus

aisha93 said:


> *Phosphorus*
> 
> Thank you so much dear professor for your time and effort. Really appreciate it.
> 
> What makes Persian poems difficult for me is that the letters are not marked (I mean they are not shown with the Tashkil/Harakat > which show the correct pronunciation) that is: فَتْحَة/كَسْرَة/ضَمَّة.
> 
> For example the verse:  *گفته شد که هر صناعت‌گر که رست* Gofte shod ke har sanaa'atgar ke rost, at first glance I couldn't guess the word رست whether its coming from the Verb Root رَستن or رُستن but when I saw your Latin alphabet I could know it. Although this sentence is not hard to guess but sometimes whatever I do I can't understand the meaning.



You are welcome Aisha. It is always my pleasure. By the way I am not a professor, I actually study industrial design (with an interest in ergonomic interior design) but I have been conducting linguistic researches-concentrated on Northwestern Iranian languages (particularly Kurdish).

Yes I am wholeheartedly agreed. Classical Persian texts lacking haraka(t) are occasionally hard to be pronounced properly. And everybody I know, including me myself, have fell pray to mispronunciation in this respect.



aisha93 said:


> Concerning the word "ranjvar" I found only رنجبر in (loghatnameh dehkhoda) as: کارگر. صنعتگر. پیشه ور. But I guess this is the same word since the letters "v" and "b" are interchangeable in Farsi.
> 
> I noticed that from my father's dialect (which is called Achomi Persian)
> 
> In Achomi Persian the word "b" is sometimes replaced by the word "v" for example:
> آب = آو
> خواب = خواو
> تابستون=تاوستون
> آفتاب= آفتاو
> باز= واز
> And many other words.
> 
> Here you can read about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajami_dialect
> Also here: http://gapolap.blogfa.com/



Your guess is completely right. "Ranjvar" is a variant of "ranjbar" (I am not sure which one is the original form though). But regarding the verb "رنج بردن" ~ "to strive" (e.g. بسی *رنج برد*م در این سال سی / عجم زنده کردم بدین پارسی ~ Firdawsi) I assume "ranjbar" (lit. "one who bears difficulty") is the original form, from which "ranjvar" is derived-on the pattern of intervocalic, ending, or middle "b" shifting into "v" in many Iranian speeches (as you correctly mentioned above in the case of Achomi).



aisha93 said:


> I have a question for you (since you are Kurdish). Is the verb "Achom" used in Kurdish language?
> If you read the first link (wikipedia link) you would notice that the word Achom in Achomi Dialect is used as the word رفتن in Formal Farsi. For example we say:
> 
> Achom or Achem (in some accents) which means "let's go" or "بریم" in Farsi.
> Meh Chedom or Mah Chedam > I went > من رفتم
> Ocho or Ocha > Go > برو
> Mo Achom or ema achem > ما می رویم
> 
> I read in wikipedia that in Kurdish Dialects you use the same word for the verb رفتن:
> 
> 
> Ez diçim/Min deçim/Mi meçim/Mi çim/Man ravam.
> 
> 
> So is if the word (Achom) a loanword from Kurdish language? Since its root is not Persian. If it is so, then it is a very strange thing since Kurds are far away (in western north) from the people of Hormozgan and Fars who spoke Achomi Dialect!
> 
> 
> I have some more questions but I will wait till you answer these first. I hope I am not bothering you by my questions. But I'm a very beginner in linguistics and I am still learning the basics.



I skimmed your given links, Achomi language is really interesting and I will read the material in details at my earliest convenience. I think it is better off to be put in a separate thread. The verb "chodan*" ~ "to go" in Achomi language deserves to be discussed independently. 

But as for now I can affirm that in Kurdish they use "cun"/"cuyin" (Northern and Central Kurdish) and "cin"/"ciyin" (Southern Kurdish) for "to go" (note that I use the alphabet devised by the Kurdish Academy of Language-a.k.a "KAL"). There are indeed some Kurdish dialects spoken in the Fars Province of Iran. Their presence over there probably predates the very first centuries of Hegirah, or even maybe earlier. We will continue this discussion as soon as you commenced an independent thread concerning this topic. 

This is always my pleasure to share ideas and knowledge with other peoples in terms of linguistics. And for linguistic knowledge I have to state that we all are learning from the very prime of our emergence in the world to the end of our mundane lives, there is no boundaries to curb this ceaseless process of learning. I also have to confess that, based on your comments on Arabic issues, your linguistic skills are truly promising.


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## Phosphorus

fdb said:


> This is of course not a "sonnet" nor a complete poem of any sort, but a short extract from his Masnavi, a long didactic-narrative book.



You are completely right. But in Iran they usually refer to these stories (parts) from Masnavi-ye Ma'navi (composed of six _daftar_s) as "poem" (e.g. "شعر موسی و شبان"/"she're Musa-vo shaban" ~ "poem of Moses and the shepherd"-a famous part of the second _daftar_).


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## Qureshpor

aisha93 said:


> *Phosphorus*
> 
> What makes Persian poems difficult for me is that the letters are not marked (I mean they are not shown with the Tashkil/Harakat > which show the correct pronunciation) that is: فَتْحَة/كَسْرَة/ضَمَّة.
> 
> For example the verse:  *گفته شد که هر صناعت‌گر که رست* Gofte shod ke har sanaa'atgar ke rost, at first glance I couldn't guess the word رست whether its coming from the Verb Root رَستن or رُستن but when I saw your Latin alphabet I could know it. Although this sentence is not hard to guess but sometimes whatever I do I can't understand the meaning.


aisha93,I am a little surprised to read your comment about the lack of short vowels, considering that you are an Arabic speaker and written Arabic normally does not show short vowels also.If you saw the following sentence, you would surely read it correctly providing the correct vowels.

دخل الجنود القدس يقتلون سكانهم كلهم و يسرقون أموالهم

daxala_ljunuudu_lqudsa yaqtuluuna sukkaanahum kullahum wa yasriquuna 'amwaalahum.(I think this is correct!)

The army entered Jerusalem, killing all its inhabitants and stealing their property! 

In a similar way, when you begin to understand Persian, with your knowledge of the language you will know when the word بود stands for "buud" and when it is "buvad". Likewise you will be able to work out if کند stands for "kunad" (he/she does; he/she will do; he/she may do) or "kund" (blunt).

Regarding understanding Classical poetry, it is of course not sufficient just to know the language.One needs to be aware of figures, events in Islamic and pre-Islamic history and all the symbolism employed by the poets..gul = lover, bulbul = beloved etc etc. Try reading something on Persian poetry and its symbolism and I am sure this will be helpful to you.


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## Phosphorus

QURESHPOR said:


> aisha93,I am a little surprised to read your comment about the lack of short vowels, considering that you are an Arabic speaker and written Arabic normally does not show short vowels also.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> Likewise you will be able to work out if کند stands for "kunad" (he/she does; he/she will do; he/she may do) or "kund" (blunt).



I am afraid this is not surprising at all, specifically when you find native Persian speakers in Iran smattering while reading classical Persian texts. I believe this is due to the fact that the current Perso-Arabic script is by no means proper to be employed for writing an Indo-European language. Semitic languages are generally based on stems that are made of consonants while in an Indo-European language, such as Persian, "کند" (as you mentioned) can have the following different words as potential pronunciations, which makes it fairly unreasonable: "konad" ~ "s/he may/would do", "kond" ~ "blunt", "kanad" "s/he may/would take off", and "kand" ~ "s/he took off".


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## Qureshpor

Phosphorus said:


> I am afraid this is not surprising at all, specifically when you find native Persian speakers in Iran smattering while reading classical Persian texts. I believe this is due to the fact that the current Perso-Arabic script is by no means proper to be employed for writing an Indo-European language. Semitic languages are generally based on stems that are made of consonants while in an Indo-European language, such as Persian, "کند" (as you mentioned) can have the following different words as potential pronunciations, which makes it fairly unreasonable: "konad" ~ "s/he may/would do", "kond" ~ "blunt", "kanad" "s/he may/would take off", and "kand" ~ "s/he took off".



I accept your train of thought that Arabic, a Semitic language, based on the trilIteral root,can not be compared with an Indo-European language such as Persian. But when one knows the language and begins to differentiate kunad from kanad (s/he digs), kand (s/he) dug and kund (blunt) from the context in which these words are being used, one is almost there. A knowledge of prosody (of which I am ignorant) will also go a long way in getting the words right. Whether I am right or not, the reality is that the language is written minus the short vowels and one is compelled to read it as it is.


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## Phosphorus

QURESHPOR said:


> I accept your train of thought that Arabic, a Semitic language, based on the trilIteral root,can not be compared with an Indo-European language such as Persian. But when one knows the language and begins to differentiate kunad from kanad (s/he digs), kand (s/he) dug and kund (blunt) from the context in which these words are being used, one is _almost_ there. A knowledge of prosody (of which I am ignorant) will also go a long way in getting the words right. Whether I am right or not, the _reality_ is that the language is written minus the short vowels and one is compelled to read it as it is.



This is correct that possessing a proper command of the language, would help you get rid of pronunciation difficulties in terms of Persian. But people are still potential victims of mispronunciation, as far as the Perso-Arabic script is used. So you are right by stating that a well-versed one is only _almost_ there, because in terms of classical writings the occasional mistakes are always there (e.g. "sakhon" vs. "sokhan", or "abkhwar" vs. "abkhor").

You are right, the language is usually written without short vowels. This reality might truly suffer many. For instance only the Omniscient could ever know what is the exact pronunciation of "کند" in the following sentence:

.اگر جامه ی خویش را *کند*، او را بکشید​"agar jaame-yeh xiish raa *kand*, u raa bekoshiid" ~ "if he took off his garment, kill him"

or

"agar jaame-yeh xiish raa *kanad*, u raa bekoshiid" ~ "if he takes off his garment, kill him"


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## Qureshpor

Phosphorus said:


> Surely you can speak Persian fluently; but, due to the historical language* of the poem, here is my try for Romanization of it:
> 
> Gofte shod ke har sanaa'atgar ke rost
> 
> Dar sanaa'at jaayegaahe nist jost
> 
> Jost bannaa mowze'i naasaakhte
> 
> Gashte viraan, saqfhaa andaakhte
> 
> Jost saqqaa kuzei kash aab nist
> 
> Vaan dorugar khaanei kash baab nist
> 
> *In Mawlana's poetry there are a few times some drastic differences between his pronunciations and the current ones: "سخن" or "خور". The current pronunciations of these words are "sokhan" and "khor" respectively. But in Mawlana's poems they sometimes appear as "sakhon" and "khwar" (note that these later pronunciations are also historically correct):
> 
> آب می خوردی به صحرا سبز و تر
> بهر این آتش بدست آن آبخور
> 
> Aab mikhordi be sahraa sabzo tar
> Bahre in aatash bodast aan aabkhwar



And here is my humble attempt at reconstructing the Classical pronunciation.

guftah shud kih har sanaa3at-gar kih rust
dar sanaa3at jaaygaah-i-nest just

It is said that every craftsman who has (ever) appeared
(Has) sought for his craft a place where there was a void

just bannaa mauzi3e naa-saaxtah
gashtah viiraaN saqfhaa andaaxtah

A builder has looked for a site, that is "unbuilt"
(or for a building) that is in ruins,its roof fallen 

just saqqaa kuuzahe ki-sh aab nest
vaaN durodgar xaanahe ki-sh baab nest

(This) water-carrier has looked for a pitcher that has no water
While that carpenter (has searched) for a house without a door
..................................................
aab me-xurde ba-saHraa(-i-)sabz-o-tar
bahr-i-iin aatash budast aan aabkhwar

They would drink in the green and lush desert
Because that drinking hole had become fiery (?)


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## Phosphorus

QURESHPOR said:


> And here is my humble attempt at reconstructing the Classical pronunciation.
> 
> guftah shud kih har sanaa3'at-gar kih rust
> dar sanaa3'at jaaygaah-i-nest just
> 
> It is said that every craftsman who has (ever) appeared
> (Has) sought for his craft a place where there was a void
> 
> just bannaa mawzii3'e naa-saaxtah
> gashtah weyraaN saqfhaa andaaxtah
> 
> A builder has looked for a site, that is "unbuilt"
> (or for a building) that is in ruins,its roof fallen
> 
> just saqqaa kuuzaii ka-sh aab nest
> waaN durogar xaanaii ka-sh baab nest
> 
> (This) water-carrier has looked for a pitcher that has no water
> While that carpenter (has searched) for a house without a door
> ..................................................
> aab me-xurde ba-saHraa(-i-)sabz-o-tar
> bahr-i-iin aatash budast aan aabkhwar
> 
> They would drink in the green and lush desert
> Because that drinking hole had become fiery (?)



I, considering Urdu as your native language, have to confess that your attempt is just excellent. To me there appeared to be some exquisite points that I remarked in your Romanization (the Arabic pronunciation of ع, as far as I know, is not attested in Persian language-generally I believe Kurdish language might be the only Iranian language that its speakers are able to pronounce "3ayn". Also regarding the fact that Mawlana was a Persian speaker from Balkh, today Afghanistan, then all Iranian Persian "v" sounds are supposed to be originally "w" in his poetry). 

And regarding the last beyt, here is the correct classical pronunciation:

Aab mexurdii ba-sahraa sabz-u-tar
Bahri-iin aatash-bodast aan aabxwar*

"Thou wert drinking water in the fields [while thou wert] so green and fresh
That [act of] drinking water was [meant] for the sake of this fire"

*In this poem Mawlana allegorically talks to the vegetables, telling them not to be disturbed if now they are picked from the lively fields and are instead boiling in the cooking pot. Because the Chef (حق) first irrigated them in the fields (~? creation of human souls-Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve, as the masculine and feminine aspects of every human soul, were expelled from), then picked them and put them in a boiling pot (~? the mundane life) and then S/He is gonna eat them and they are going to attach the body of the Chef (~? الی الله المصیر) and comprise One body (~? وحدت الوجود).


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## Qureshpor

Phosphorus said:


> I, considering Urdu as your native language, have to confess that your attempt is just excellent. To me there appeared to be some exquisite points that I remarked in your Romanization (the Arabic pronunciation of ع, as far as I know, is not attested in Persian language-generally I believe Kurdish language might be the only Iranian language that its speakers are able to pronounce "3ayn". Also regarding the fact that Mawlana was a Persian speaker from Balkh, today Afghanistan, then all Iranian Persian "v" sounds are supposed to be originally "w" in his poetry).
> 
> And regarding the last beyt, here is the correct classical pronunciation:
> 
> Aab mexurdii ba-sahraa sabz-u-tar
> Bahri-iin aatash-bodast aan aabxwar*
> 
> "Thou wert drinking water in the fields [while thou wert] so green and fresh
> That [act of] drinking water was [meant] for the sake of this fire"
> 
> *In this poem Mawlana allegorically talks to the vegetables, telling them not to be disturbed if now they are picked from the lively fields and are instead boiling in the cooking pot. Because the Chef (حق) first irrigated them in the fields (~? creation of human souls-Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve, as the masculine and feminine aspects of every human soul, were expelled from), then picked them and put them in a boiling pot (~? the mundane life) and then S/He is gonna eat them and they are going to attach the body of the Chef (~? الی الله المصیر) and comprise One body (~? وحدت الوجود).



Thank for your kind words. I just hope that aisha93 finds some help in our replies.

Reference the letter 3ain, I was trying to attempt to transcribe the written word into Roman as accurately as possible. Having said this, it is quite possible that this consonant could have been pronounced somewhat akin to the Classical Arabic manner by educated Persians.

Thank you for correcting my transcription and translating and explaining the final couplet. I had a strong feeling that I had messed it up and hence my question mark.


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## Qureshpor

aisha93 said:


> *Moreover, I need Persian explanation/interpretation for Rumi poems. I searched a lot but found nothing. I only found some for Hafiz.
> 
> If you know any sites/blogs please write them down cause I am in need of them. Although I can understand most of the Persian poems and almost all of the words, but still some verses aren't clear and have some metaphors or latent meanings which I can't understand fully.*



Here are a few links for you to make a start.

http://www.hafizonlove.com/divan/index.htm
http://poemsintranslation.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Hafiz
http://www.iranonline.com/literature/index-hafez.html
http://www.rumionfire.com/shams/index.htm


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## Phosphorus

QURESHPOR said:


> Thank for your kind words. I just hope that aisha93 finds some help in our replies.
> 
> Reference the letter 3ain, I was trying to attempt to transcribe the written word into Roman as accurately as possible. Having said this, it is quite possible that this consonant could have been pronounced somewhat akin to the Classical Arabic manner by educated Persians.
> 
> Thank you for correcting my transcription and translating and explaining the final couplet. I had a strong feeling that I had messed it up and hence my question mark.



I meant it Qureshpor SaaHiib. You are welcome pal.


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## Phosphorus

aisha93 said:


> *Moreover, I need Persian explanation/interpretation for Rumi poems. *



Besides links provided by Qureshpor, I may add the following:

http://maqala.blogfa.com/post-6.aspx < interpretation of Mawlana's poetry  by, allegedly, Dr. Abdolkarim Soroush-a famous self-considered Islamic  intellectual (however many may actually conceive of him a kafir).

http://pasin.blogfa.com/post-237.aspx  < a useful article to start with the gnostic interpretation of  Mawlana's poetry. This article has purportedly been published in a Persian periodical.

http://www.tebyan-zn.ir/News-Article/persian_literature/2011/11/16/43973.html < an elementary article on Sana'i (سنایی).   Sana'i is one of the greatest Persian mystics and poets. His  significance in regard with Mawlana is best described by this verse from  Mawlana: عطار روح بود و سنایی دو چشم او / ما از پی سنایی و عطار آمدیم. Note that in the post-Islamic Iran Gnosis (عرفان) has two phases: عرفان زاهدانه and عرفان عاشقانه.  Unfortunately Iranians usually consider all kind of Gnosis movements in  Iran as عرفان زاهدانه or "Gnosis of Piety". This kind of Gnosis is most  likely impacted by the pious Christian monks, of Syriac origin, in the  first centuries. These monks were inspired by the ascetic stories about  Fili Dei in the Bible and duly considered this world of no worth. But  "Gnosis of Love" was considering the vice versa: is not world and all  its beauties created by the Beloved (< whom the others refer to as  God), so every things is beauty and every thing is worth it because S/He  is the most beautiful! This kind of Gnosis was first introduced by Ibn  Arabi in terms of Islamic philosophy, and Sana'i introduced it in the  realm of poetry. Loving gnostics عارفان عاشق were always in contrast with the pious gnostics عارفان زاهد (e.g. Hafirz says in this respect: زاهدان کین جلوه در محراب و منبر می کنند / چون به خلوت می روند آن کار دیگر می کنند  ~ the pious that show off their piety on minbars sell preachings to the  people / in their privacy do as opposed to their hypocrite  preachings!). The pious figures always used to excommunicate  the loving gnostics, in turn. And actually most of celebrated Iranian  poets of classic literature were adherent followers of the Gnosis of  Love (note that this kind of Gnosis is by no means developed by Ibn  Arabi, actually Ibn Arabi and, further the Iranian mystic poets, were  inspired by their predecessors in ancient Rome, Greek ... and you can  eventually trace 'em back to the "*Thrice Greatest Hermes*" of Egypt).

http://daftareroshan.blogfa.com/cat-16.aspx  < it is a link containing an interpretation of "Simorgh-e Attar".  The importance of Attar عطار in relation to Mawlana is best shown in  this verse from Rumi: هفت شهر عشق را عطّار گشت / ما هنوز اندر خَم یک کوچه ایم. The Phoenix (Simorgh) is  one of the most pivotal concepts in Gnosis, only search it in English  texts and you will find a lot of interesting information (but just be  aware not to fall pray to the conspiracy theories over there!).


And  in the end if someone desires to start off studying Gnosis, they are  better to drop all their default dogmas. This idea i exactly to be  observed in the story of Mawlana becoming a gnostic: the legend has it  that one day Shams of Tabriz (who later became the spiritual mentor of  Mawlana) sees Jalal adDin Balkhi in Quniyyah (present Konya). By that  time Jalal adDin Balkhi was a famous Islamic cleric in that area and a  man of God-_a really pious one_. Shams asks him: "Is Bayazid of  Bastam greater than the Prophet of Islam?". "What kind of question is  it?! It is obvious that no body is equal to the Prophet of Islam (pbuh)  and he is greater than any other human!", Balkhi replies. Then Shams  says: "if it is so, then why when Muhammad is asked about God he replies  "I do not know Him completely, sub7anAllah!" but Bayazid has said  "سبحانی و ما اعظمنا شانی!"? (note that such a description is only to be used for God in an Islamic context and not for a mortal!) After this response by Shams, Balkhi blacks  out and afterwards goes to a room with Shams and they stay there for 40  days (< the mean rumors about homosexual desires between them both  has its origin from there) and Shams teaches "Gnosis" to the famous  cleric of the time. Balkhi drops all his dogmas and imbibes gnostic  teachings and there after he is called "Mawlana"-by his further gnostic  adherents, however as far as I know he always referred to himself as  "Khamosh" ~ "Silent" (for the significance of "Silent" please read some  words of Aleister Crowley-I know he is once received the title of "the  most wicked man alive", but I believe his investigations in mysticism  are really noteworthy).


----------



## aisha93

QURESHPOR said:


> aisha93,I am a little surprised to read your comment about the lack of short vowels, considering that you are an Arabic speaker and written Arabic normally does not show short vowels also.If you saw the following sentence, you would surely read it correctly providing the correct vowels.
> 
> دخل الجنود القدس يقتلون سكانهم كلهم و يسرقون أموالهم
> 
> daxala_ljunuudu_lqudsa yaqtuluuna sukkaanahum kullahum wa yasriquuna 'amwaalahum.(I think this is correct!)
> 
> The army entered Jerusalem, killing all its inhabitants and stealing their property!



Salam 3leykum again.

I don't agree completely with you concerning the Arabic Diacritic, although its true that I can read the sentence you wrote correctly and effortlessly (automatically). And you can also do this since you are familiar with the Arabic language, and more importantly with the recitation of Quran since your childhood (as most of Urdu people or Pakistanis are). 

So I and you have got used to the correct structure and diacritic-pronunciation which have been ingrained in our minds since childhood, and therefore we can easily read the aforesaid sentence: دخل الجنود القدس يقتلون سكانهم كلهم و يسرقون أمواله.

But for a new student (Arabic learner) it wouldn't be easy to read it in the correct form, for example many beginners  might read كلُّهم instead of كلَّهم which is definitely wrong, cause كلهم in your sentence referes to the people who have been slain (killed) > they are (the object مفعول به) here. As is the case in this verse of Quran (20:56): وَلَقَدْ أَرَيْناهُ آياتِنا كُلَّها فَكَذَّبَ وَأَبى 

But in the case of (subject فاعل) the word كلهم will be in this form كلُّهم As in Quran (15:30): فَسَجَدَ _الْمَلَائِكَةُ كُلُّهُمْ_أَجْمَعُونَ

And finally the case of مجرور (which I'm not sure of the English translation) but I think is _genitive_. 
As in the Old Testament of the Bible "Arabic version" (7:16) : وجعَلَ أبواقًا في أيديهِم كلهِم.

My point is that these diacritics are important for the beginners, as they are guidance to direct the reader. If the weren't important you wouldn't have seen them in Quran.

But unluckily in Persian poems there aren't any, unlike the formal Arabic poems as you can observe in this site: http://www.adab.com/index.php



> In a similar way, when you begin to understand Persian, with your knowledge of the language you will know when the word بود stands for "buud" and when it is "buvad". Likewise you will be able to work out if کند stands for "kunad" (he/she does; he/she will do; he/she may do) or "kund" (blunt).
> 
> Regarding understanding Classical poetry, it is of course not sufficient  just to know the language.One needs to be aware of figures, events in  Islamic and pre-Islamic history and all the symbolism employed by the  poets..gul = lover, bulbul = beloved etc etc. Try reading something on  Persian poetry and its symbolism and I am sure this will be helpful to  you.



That's true for normal subjects, but the problem is that many persian words have more than one pronunciation as in: نزاکت > nezakat/nazakat. حادثه > hadese/hadesa. کوچک kuchek/kuchak. 

But the biggest problem is in Poem verses when a word can be interpreted many different ways. As in the verse which Phosphorus posted: اگر جامه ی خویش را *کند*، او را بکشید.

I agree that most of them can be understood or guessed based on one's grasp of the language. But I (as a beginner) have to exert a lot of mental effort (energy) and a lot of search in the Dictionary for the words which I meet to understand a single verse which I hate to do . If there had been diacritics, I wouldn't have done all of that stuff. 

But perhaps there is a wisdom in these poems being hard to figure out. I hope so.


----------



## aisha93

Look at this as a real example of those mystic/vague (at least for me) poems (Ghazal) by Rumi:

کجایید ای شهیدان خدایی /   بلاجویان دشت کربلایی
کجایید ای سبک روحان عاشق /   پرنده تر ز مرغان هوایی
کجایید ای شهان آسمانی/    بدانسته فلک را در گشایی
کجایید ای ز جان وجا رهیده/    کسی مر عقل را گوید کجایی
کجایید ای در زندان شکسته/    بداده وام داران را رهایی
کجایید ای در مخزن گشاده/    کجایید ای نوای بی نوایی
در آن بحرید کاین عالم کف او است/    زمانی بیش دارید آشنایی
کف دریاست صورت های عالم/    ز کف بگذر اگر اهل صفایی
دلم کف کرد کاین نقش سخن شد/    بهل نقش وبه دل رو گر ز مایی
برآ ای شمس تبریزی ز مشرق/    که اصل اصل اصل هر ضیایی

I've colored the words where I have problems in red. So let me ask one by one.

1)  بدانسته فلک را در گشایی Here I'm rather doubtful about the word بدانسته I understand it as a past tense of the verb دانستن am I right in my assumption? Because I've read in some contexts words like برفتند which I guess is another form of saying the word رفتند with the same meaning. And also بگفت=گفت Do they really convey the same meaning? I'm afraid they don't. Reassure me or correct me if I'm wrong.

Not only that word is kind of obscure for me, but the whole clause is. First of all, what is meant by فلک there? Is it referring to آسمان or بهشت? Secondly, I can't make any sense of the whole clause! Can you translate it in English? I mean this clause بدانسته فلک را در گشایی.

2) مر What does this word mean? or the whole clause in general کسی مر عقل را گوید کجایی.

3) در آن بحرید کاین عالم کف او است    زمانی بیش دارید آشنایی What I could understand by آن بحر is the (the other world) or (hereafter) which comparing to this (worldly/mundane world) is of much higher value and importance. So he (rumi) likens the (mundane world) to the scum of the real sea (the other word اخرت), but I wonder why didn't he used the word زبد instead of کف in Arabic, since he had stated بحر not دریا! As he was probably culling/picking up the metaphor exactly, or let me say verbally from the Quranic verse (13:17): فَأَمَّا الزَّبَدُ فَيَذْهَبُ جُفَاءً. Do you think my analysis is logical here?

4) دلم کف کرد کاین نقش سخن شد    بهل نقش وبه دل رو گر ز مایی Here, at first, I faced many problems in understanding it but eventually I could figure it out. Though I'm not sure of کف کرد since (dehkhoda) gives three different meanings for it 1) تولید کف شدن and 2) عشقی شدن and finally 3) مبهوت شدن can you tell me what is the intended meaning here? 

And for به دل رو is this the shortened form of به دل رو آور? from the verb رو آوردن which I believe means to pay attention to/heed or take notice of something.

5) And my last question is for برآ can you give me the infinitive verb? I can only think of بر آوردن?


----------



## Qureshpor

aisha93 said:


> Look at this as a real example of those mystic/vague (at least for me) poems (Ghazal) by Rumi:
> 
> کجایید ای شهیدان خدایی / بلاجویان دشت کربلایی
> کجایید ای سبک روحان عاشق / پرنده تر ز مرغان هوایی
> کجایید ای شهان آسمانی/ بدانسته فلک را در گشایی
> کجایید ای ز جان وجا رهیده/ کسی مر عقل را گوید کجایی
> کجایید ای در زندان شکسته/ بداده وام داران را رهایی
> کجایید ای در مخزن گشاده/ کجایید ای نوای بی نوایی
> در آن بحرید کاین عالم کف او است/ زمانی بیش دارید آشنایی
> کف دریاست صورت های عالم/ ز کف بگذر اگر اهل صفایی
> دلم کف کرد کاین نقش سخن شد/ بهل نقش وبه دل رو گر ز مایی
> برآ ای شمس تبریزی ز مشرق/ که اصل اصل اصل هر ضیایی
> 
> I've colored the words where I have problems in red. So let me ask one by one.
> 
> 1) بدانسته فلک را در گشایی Here I'm rather doubtful about the word بدانسته I understand it as a past tense of the verb دانستن am I right in my assumption? Because I've read in some contexts words like برفتند which I guess is another form of saying the word رفتند with the same meaning. And also بگفت=گفت Do they really convey the same meaning? I'm afraid they don't. Reassure me or correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Not only that word is kind of obscure for me, but the whole clause is. First of all, what is meant by فلک there? Is it referring to آسمان or بهشت? Secondly, I can't make any sense of the whole clause! Can you translate it in English? I mean this clause بدانسته فلک را در گشایی.
> 
> 2) مر What does this word mean? or the whole clause in general کسی مر عقل را گوید کجایی.
> 
> 3) در آن بحرید کاین عالم کف او است زمانی بیش دارید آشنایی What I could understand by آن بحر is the (the other world) or (hereafter) which comparing to this (worldly/mundane world) is of much higher value and importance. So he (rumi) likens the (mundane world) to the scum of the real sea (the other word اخرت), but I wonder why didn't he used the word زبد instead of کف in Arabic, since he had stated بحر not دریا! As he was probably culling/picking up the metaphor exactly, or let me say verbally from the Quranic verse (13:17): فَأَمَّا الزَّبَدُ فَيَذْهَبُ جُفَاءً. Do you think my analysis is logical here?
> 
> 4) دلم کف کرد کاین نقش سخن شد بهل نقش وبه دل رو گر ز مایی Here, at first, I faced many problems in understanding it but eventually I could figure it out. Though I'm not sure of کف کرد since (dehkhoda) gives three different meanings for it 1) تولید کف شدن and 2) عشقی شدن and finally 3) مبهوت شدن can you tell me what is the intended meaning here?
> 
> And for به دل رو is this the shortened form of به دل رو آور? from the verb رو آوردن which I believe means to pay attention to/heed or take notice of something.
> 
> 5) And my last question is for برآ can you give me the infinitive verb? I can only think of بر آوردن?



I shall attempt to answer some of your questions in the reverse order! Hopefully, people more familiar with the language will correct me and complete the list!

5) bar-aamadan..here bar aa means "rise".... "Rise from the East, Oh Sun of Tabrez !"

4) bah dil rau (Go to the heart....rau from raftan)

kaf is froth/foam (kaf-i-daryaa/sea-foam)

dil-am kaf kard kiin naqsh suxan shud
bi-hil naqsh va bah dil rau gar zi maa'ii

My heart frothed up (was excited?) that this picture turned into words
Leave the picture and go to the heart if you are one of us!

3) dar aan baHr-iid kih iin 3aalam kaf-i-o-st
zamaane pesh daared aashnaa'ii

You are in such a sea where this world is its foam
Make an acquiantence there for just a little while (?)

2) the value of particle "mar" is not known with complete certainty. But, as you are a person who is acquianted with Arabic, the following explanation might help.

*iyaa*-ka na3budu = na3budu-*ka *the emphasis being on "ka" you = *mar*-tu-raa parast-em= We worship *only/especially* you!


----------



## Qureshpor

aisha93 said:


> Look at this as a real example of those mystic/vague (at least for me) poems (Ghazal) by Rumi:
> 
> I've colored the words where I have problems in red. So let me ask one by one.
> 
> 1) بدانسته فلک را در گشایی Here I'm rather doubtful about the word بدانسته I understand it as a past tense of the verb دانستن am I right in my assumption? Because I've read in some contexts words like برفتند which I guess is another form of saying the word رفتند with the same meaning. And also بگفت=گفت Do they really convey the same meaning? I'm afraid they don't. Reassure me or correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Not only that word is kind of obscure for me, but the whole clause is. First of all, what is meant by فلک there? Is it referring to آسمان or بهشت? Secondly, I can't make any sense of the whole clause! Can you translate it in English? I mean this clause بدانسته فلک را در گشایی.


I believe here "falk" is sky/heaven etc

"daanistah" is the conjunctive participle (Having known), which in the context means "Knowingly/Wittingly"

کجایید ای شهان آسمانی/ بدانسته فلک را در گشایی

Where are you, oh kings of the celestial orb
With full knowledge, you open heaven's door

The "prefix" "bi" is considered to give a sense of completion. If you know Urdu, then "guft" = us ne kahaa, "bi-guft" = us ne kah diyaa, "kusht" = us ne (jaan se) maaraa, "bi-kusht" = us ne maar Daalaa. It is well nigh impossible to convey this subtlety in English.

uu in raa guft va bi-raft = S/he said this and went off.

I think, for all intent and purposes it is best to ignore this "bi" suffix.

I don't know if I am anywhere close to the intended meanings, but I have had a go!


----------



## Phosphorus

aisha93 said:


> I've colored the words where I have problems in red. So let me ask one by one.
> 
> 2) مر What does this word mean? or the whole clause in general کسی مر عقل را گوید کجایی.



Along with Qureshpor SaaHiib's comments, I may add the following:

I am not sure whether "mar", as Qureshpor SaaHiib suggests, is equivalent with Arabic "iyyaa" or not; but many, regarding the fact that the exact sense of "mar" is foggy, hold that it is usually safe to drop it from the sentence without damaging its general meaning. By the way "mar" is often noticed preceding words that are followed by "raa" (as is the case with "kasii mar aql raa porsad kojaaii?"). 




aisha93 said:


> 3) در آن بحرید کاین عالم کف او است    زمانی بیش دارید آشنایی What I could understand by آن بحر is the (the other world) or (hereafter) which comparing to this (worldly/mundane world) is of much higher value and importance. So he (rumi) likens the (mundane world) to the scum of the real sea (the other word اخرت), but I wonder why didn't he used the word زبد instead of کف in Arabic, since he had stated بحر not دریا! As he was probably culling/picking up the metaphor exactly, or let me say verbally from the Quranic verse (13:17): فَأَمَّا الزَّبَدُ فَيَذْهَبُ جُفَاءً. Do you think my analysis is logical here?



You are rather close in figuring out the interpretation of this bayt, but in order to arrive at the exact meaning "bahr" is best defined as "nothingness/inexistence". "3adam" ~ "نیستی" or "nothingness" is the very context within which "thingness/existence" or "هستی" ~ "wujud" is born and then dies and again gets reborn and so on. Just like the sea foam, when it hits the beach: it is temporary, but the sea, in return, is eternal. In the occult teachings it has long been held that "wujud" is nothing outside of an illusion inside "3adam". 

Also note that while ordinary Muslims (and generally all followers of Abrahamic religions) expect the truth to be completely revealed only in the afterlife, the Gnostics have been seriously preoccupied to have the Truth unveiled in this very life! 

For "kaf" the Quranic verse you quoted can somehow fit. If I am not mistaken in the theoretical physics there are hypothetic notions about something called the "quantum foam". From what I remember out of Michael Talbot's works this is a similar idea to what is said above in terms of the relation between "hastii" and "niistii". Back to the cited Quranic verse, there "foam" is related to "baaTiil", just as the "outward" ~ "hastii" which stands against the "inward" ~ "niistii" ~ "7aq"." 

By the way I believe he has not used "zabad" for "foam", or even "daryaa" instead of "bahr", fo the sake of technical poetic considerations (i.e. wazn, 3aruDh, qaafiyah, etc.).



aisha93 said:


> 4) دلم کف کرد کاین نقش سخن شد    بهل نقش وبه دل رو گر ز مایی Here, at first, I faced many problems in understanding it but eventually I could figure it out. Though I'm not sure of کف کرد since (dehkhoda) gives three different meanings for it 1) تولید کف شدن and 2) عشقی شدن and finally 3) *مبهوت شدن* can you tell me what is the intended meaning here?



The third meaning, I believe, fits the context over here: "mabhut shodan".

And for the highlighted couplets, here you are:
کجایید ای شهان آسمانی/    بدانسته فلک را در گشایی

​Literal meaning:

*O celestial kings, where are ye?
To open the heavens' door knowingly*

Esoteric Significance:
"Where are ye/wish you were here, o celestial kings!

[So that] ye would open the heavenly treasure's door at your will for us (< compare Mawlana's "bidaaniista" with modern Persian "nadaanesteh" ~ "unwittingly"; here Mawlana points out those who can have the truth unveiled whenever they mean to, those that not only know the unknown and the future but may even make it happen as they say-predict it, probably like that tender foreteller, Oracle, in Matrix trilogy, who did not actually predict the future but would have it caused only by saying!)"



کجایید ای ز جان وجا رهیده/    کسی مر عقل را گوید کجایی​ Literal meaning:
*
O ye who have been liberated from body, life and place, where are ye?
Does any body say "where is the reason" [wherein ye stay]?*

 Esoteric Significance:

"Truly you have liberated yourselves from the space and time (then there is no demise awaiting you anymore-contrary to the living ones that ceaselessly give birth and die)

Now and regarding where you stay after this liberation: I wonder does anybody give a damn for "reason" over there? (< emphasizing the lingering debate between the "traditional existentialists" concerning the "reason" to be everything on one hand and  the "Gnostics" insisting on the purity of "love" ~ "consciousness" and the fact that "reason" is crippled when it is the matter of "truth"; this "reason" note to be confused with "عقل کل" ~ "Logos")"



در آن بحرید کاین عالم کف او است/    زمانی بیش دارید آشنایی

​ Literal meaning:

*Ye are [actually] in a sea which this universe is [indeed no more than] its foam
 [Then] spend sometime to gain acquaintance [with Gnosis]*

 Esoteric Significance:

"You think this universe and the world you live in is everything, but you are wrong and this universe is actually as temporary as the foams that appear on the surface of sea from time to time, so do not let the temporary foams (in which you are trapped as a living being) to have you heeded not the sea-the eternity and beyond! 

Then you are better to spend sometime obtaining Gnosis and esoteric knowledge-may the Truth reveal Its very Self to you and you become liberated too! (note that in this bayt, as opposed to the previous ones in which the departed Esoteric Masters are the audience, Mawlana targets the reader)"



دلم کف کرد کاین نقش سخن شد/    بهل نقش وبه دل رو گر ز مایی​

Literal meaning: 
*
I am astonished at this image which became [depicted by means of] words  
Leave the [outward] image and move to the heart, if you are [one] of us *

Esoteric significance: 

"I wonder how come I managed to depict this scene for you and put it into a poetic framework 

But please let the depiction, which exists only in the outward, go and head towards the heart-where the Truth verily lies, if you consider yourself a Gnostic indeed"




برآ ای شمس تبریزی ز مشرق/    که اصل اصل اصل هر ضیایی


​ Literal meaning: 
*
Rise from the east [as the sun rises], o Shams of Tabriz! 
For you are the very very very origin of all [guiding esoteric] lights! *

 Esoteric significance: 

"O Shams of Tabriz, you are the Truth itself, so incarnate in sun, rise from the east [besides the fact that sun rises from the orient, it is noteworthy that Tabriz is geographically located in the east of Konya-where Mawlana used to live] and illuminate the world by the light of Truth! (< here, as often with Mawlana, he again mentions his esoteric mentor, Shams of Tabriz, whom Mawlana has once described as "God": "faash beguyam iin sokhan: Shams-eh man-o Khodaa-yeh man!" ~ "let me make it clear: Shams is but my God!"; and this time Mawlana wants Shams, which is one of the incarnations of the Truth-a.k.a "God", to incarnate in sun and illuminate the human race, as sun illuminates the world! Alevi followers in Anatolia are told to hail sun at dawns, since they believe that Ali bin Abi Talib, also regarded as an incarnation of Haq-the Truth-among Ahl-i Haq, reveals himself in the garment of sun; similar concept is perhaps to be observed among Christians, followers of all current churches, where Fili Dei (~ ابن الله ~ "Jesus Christ") is also to be perceived as God that has revealed Himself in shape of a human)    

Because you are by all means the very source of all esoteric lights that are being delivered to the world through the Gnostic Masters all the time (esoteric light is knowledge, or "Gnosis", so those who guide the mankind from the ignorance towards consciousness, they are bearers of light, "Light Bearers" or as its Latinate form "Lucifer"!)" 

P.S. The so-called esoteric significances above are my own perception of Mawlana's poem based on my present ken. Indeed there is the probability of these interpretations matching not exactly what Mawlana meant. As Mawlana himself best describes: "har kasii az zann-eh khod shod yaar-eh man" ~ "everybody sees me the way they wish to see me".


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## Persian01

Could someone please translate this Rumi poem for me as well? I'd be very thankful.





وای آن دل که بدو از تو نشانی نرسد
 مرده آن تن که بدو مژده جانی نرسد
 وای آن دل که ز عشق تو در آتش نرود
 همچو زر خرج شود هیچ به کانی نرسد

 سخن عشق چو بیدرد بود بر ندهد
 جز به گوش هوس﻿ و جز به زبانی نرسد
 حس چو بیدار بود خواب نبیند هرگز
 از جهان تا نرود دل به جهانی نرسد

 این زمان جهد بکن تا ز زمان بازرهی
 پیش از آن دم که زمانی به زمانی نرسد
 تیره صبحی که مرا از تو سلامی نرس
 تلخ روزی که ز شهد تو بیانی نرسد

Im not allowed to post the link to the poem, but you can also find it at ganjoor.net


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## shayan1239

Hi 

Any chance you can provide me with the persian version of the poem by rumi please. 

Forgetsafety. Live where you fear to live.
Destroy your reputation. Be notorious.
I have tried prudent planning long enough.
From now on, I’ll be mad.


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