# lengua / lenguaje



## ceciliacabrera123

*¿*C*ó*mo puedo traduc*i*r Lengua y Lengua*j*e?  Estoy confundida, ayuda por favor.
 Language and Language?

Estoy traduciendo una presentación sobre la importancia de hablar la lengua maternal.
Gracias.


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## Alisterio

Así es, en español existe la diferencia entre la lengua (o idioma) que uno habla, y el lenguaje como concepto o sistema de comunicación entre los seres humanos. Ambos conceptos los traduces como "language" en inglés.


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## gengo

In general, those two Spanish words both translate to language, but there are cases when lengua can be translated as tongue, and lengua materna works fine as mother tongue.  However, "native language" is more commonly used.


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## Agró

"Lengua *materna*".


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## The Newt

"Language" sin artículo o adjetivo antecedente normalmente quiere decir "lenguaje como sistema etc."

_Most children acquire language by the time they are two._
_Most children acquire *a* language_ (es decir, su propia idioma) _by the time they are two._


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## Alisterio

The Newt said:


> "Language" sin artículo o adjetivo antecedente normalmente quiere decir "lenguaje como sistema etc."
> 
> _Most children acquire language by the time they are two._
> _Most children acquire *a* language_ (es decir, su propia idioma) _by the time they are two._



Good point.


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## LanguageUser1234

Que lo confirme ella, pero yo creo que cc123 está preguntando cómo traducir la frase "Lengua y lenguaje", donde los dos términos van juntos. Y me parece una muy buena pregunta. Yo, por mi parte, no tengo ni idea.


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## ceciliacabrera123

Muchas gracias por su ayuda, en realidad Jeff tiene razón, como podría traducer "Lengua y Lenguaje" juntos.


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## fenixpollo

Es difícil traducir un fragmento de manera idiomática, sin verlo dentro de un contexto concreto. Hace falta ver una oración completa como ejemplo de la frase "lengua y lenguaje".


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## The Newt

ceciliacabrera123 said:


> Muchas gracias por su ayuda, en realidad Jeff tiene razón, como podría traducer "Lengua y Lenguaje" juntos.



Bueno, como Jeff sugiere, sería difícil en inglés. "Native Tongue and Language," tal vez.


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## gengo

fenixpollo said:


> Es difícil traducir un fragmento de manera idiomática, sin verlo dentro de un contexto concreto. Hace falta ver una oración completa como ejemplo de la frase "lengua y lenguaje".



Exactly.  It could be something like "Language:  Spoken and Written," or "Language:  Native and Learned," or something else entirely.


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## ceciliacabrera123

La Lengua y el Lenguaje es el título.
Luego viene la definición de "Lengua" y la definición de: "Lenguaje"


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## gengo

ceciliacabrera123 said:


> La Lengua y el Lenguaje es el título.
> Luego viene la definición de "Lengua" y la definición de: "Lenguaje"



¿Cuáles son las definiciones dadas?


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## ceciliacabrera123

Este es:
Lenguaessinónimo de idioma y es el conjunto de códigos sistematizados ycompartidos con el cual nos podemos comunicar. 

Lenguajees la capacidad humana para podernos comunicar, no se materializa ni concretiza en nada, es sólo una capacidad. ​


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## Argieman

The Newt said:


> Bueno, como Jeff sugiere, sería difícil en inglés. "Native Tongue and Language," tal vez.


Tongue means language in English? I thought it only was the part of your mouth


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## The Newt

Argieman said:


> Tongue means language in English? I thought it only was the part of your mouth



Yes, it refers to your language / idioma. It's very slightly _cursi,_ however, except in a few phrases like "mother tongue."


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## William Stein

I think it must be the idea of "Langue et Parole" by the French linguist Saussure (->language and speech):



*Los nuevos caminos de la lingüística - Page 43 - Google Books Result*

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=9682315700 - Translate this page
Bertil Malmberg - 2003 - ‎Language Arts & Disciplines
El uso que hace De *Saussure* de los términos *langue y parole* no es siempre fácil ... inglés,* language y speech*; sprák y tal en sueco; lengua y habla en *español*.
According to Saussure, "langue' (language/lenguaje!) is the abstract system of language (grammar, vocabulary, syntax) that defines all possible combinations. "Habla"(speech/parole)  is not just speaking, it means the actual practice of the general linguistic system (langue)
It's true that your text says "lengua" instead of "habla" but I think the definitions correspond:
Este es:
Lengua (Speech) es sinónimo de idioma y es el conjunto de códigos sistematizados ycompartidos con el cual nos podemos comunicar. 

Lenguaje (= Language) es la capacidad humana para podernos comunicar, no se materializa ni concretiza en nada, es sólo una capacidad. 

Sorry about all the numbering, by the way, it's just a glitch.


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## Argieman

The Newt said:


> Yes, it refers to your language / idioma. It's very slightly _cursi,_ however, except in a few phrases like "mother tongue."



Then, I guess "tongue" means idioma, ´cause what you first learn in your country is the lengua, and language is the universal way we humans have to communicate, it seems from cecilia cabrera, post 14. 
Anyway, as you learn your mother tongue, you´re learning the capacity to communicate...


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## Argieman

What about "Language and philology?" In his book "las palabras y las cosas ", Michel Foucault distinguish them., but I have the spanish edition. I think the concepts that cecilia exposed in post 14 fit this two terms


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## Nicomon

What follows is at the bottom of this page : 





> *Diferencias clave entre lengua, lenguaje y habla*
> 
> El lenguaje es la facultad que sólo poseen los humanos y que les permite aprender lenguas. La lengua es un conjunto de símbolos o sistema abstracto cuya principal función es la comunicación. El habla es la concretización de la lengua y a diferencia de ésta no es social, sino individual.


  There was this previous thread : *lenguage, lengua y habla*  but the answers aren't very conclusive. 
*Language and speech * is indeed the most popular solution to translate  "lengua y lenguaje" in *this discussion* found on Proz, but then  how do we make the difference between  lenguaje and habla? 

I agree with Argieman that "tongue" as in "mother tongue" = idioma

It would be easier to translate to French...  in which case I'd say  _langue, langage et parole_


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## duvija

Lo de Saussure es tan comúnmente aceptado, que en los EEUU lo estudié como 'langue and parole'. No hay modo de traducirlo mejor.


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## William Stein

duvija said:


> Lo de Saussure es tan comúnmente aceptado, que en los EEUU lo estudié como 'langue and parole'. No hay modo de traducirlo mejor.



That's true in the world of comp lit and semiotics but if you need an English translation I think it corresponds to language and speech in English. The confusing part is that "langue" = lenguaje (abstract system) instead of the cognate "lengua" .


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## fenixpollo

For the phrase "lengua y lenguaje", I don't think "tongue" is appropriate. To follow Nicomon's post, here's how I would translate each of the concepts he quotes:
*
Diferencias clave entre lengua, lenguaje y habla*


El lenguaje es la facultad que sólo poseen los humanos y  que les permite aprender lenguas. (language) La lengua es un conjunto de símbolos o  sistema abstracto cuya principal función es la comunicación. (language) El habla  es la concretización de la lengua y a diferencia de ésta no es social,  sino individual. (speech) 

I think that the phrase "lengua y lenguaje" can't be translated literally. Since both concepts are represented by the word "language" English, then the best translation of the phrase "lengua y lenguaje" is *language*.


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## ceciliacabrera123

Muchas gracias a todos, valoro mucho su tiempo e información.  
Su cooperación es muy importante para mi.


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## Brimstone

Hi there:

I couldn´t agree more with Nicomon on this: Speech and Language is the closest translation for Lengua y Lenguaje. At least, it is used that way by doctors in Linguistics from USA universities. In this sense, think about the concept of speech therapy, that is, trastornos del habla, which is also translated as transtornos del lenguaje by laymen. Linguists stick to transtornos del habla.


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## William Stein

Brimstone said:


> Hi there:
> 
> I couldn´t agree more with Nicomon on this: Speech and Language is the closest translation for Lengua y Lenguaje. At least, it is used that way by doctors in Linguistics from USA universities. In this sense, think about the concept of speech therapy, that is, trastornos del habla, which is also translated as transtornos del lenguaje by laymen. Linguists stick to transtornos del habla.



Unless I changed my name, you're agreeing with me (#17), not that it matters that much.


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## Brimstone

Hello, William Stein:

You are dead right about it, and I am sorry about changing your name!


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## William Stein

Brimstone said:


> Hello, William Stein:
> 
> You are dead right about it, and I am sorry about changing your name!



That's okay, no problem!


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## Nicomon

I mainly confirmed in #20, with a link to Proz, that _Speech and Language_ seemed to be the most popular option to translate  _Lengua y Lenguaje_.

Your post #17  about  Sausurre  was modified afterwards (on 1/6), and I can't remember what the original was.   
But  I certainly don't want to take the credit.   I would have rendered onto Caesar if you hadn't already done it yourself.


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## William Stein

Nicomon said:


> I mainly confirmed in #20, with a link to Proz, that _Speech and Language_ seemed to be the most popular option to translate  _Lengua y Lenguaje_.
> 
> Your post #17  about  Sausurre  was modified afterwards (on 1/6), and I can't remember what the original was.
> But  I certainly don't want to take the credit.   I would have rendered onto Caesar if you hadn't already done it yourself.



I studied Saussure in Paris 20 years ago and didn't need to copy that from your link, if that's what you're suggesting.


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## chileno

Argieman said:


> Tongue means language in English? I thought it only was the part of your mouth



So in Spanish "lengua" is not part of the mouth?


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## William Stein

chileno said:


> So in Spanish "lengua" is not part of the mouth?



Just in a few old expressions like "native tongue". I wouldn't recommend that you go around asking people "Would you like to be fluent in my tongue?"


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## chileno

The Newt said:


> Bueno, como Jeff sugiere, sería difícil en inglés. "Native Tongue and Language," tal vez.





William Stein said:


> Just in a few old expressions like "native tongue". I wouldn't recommend that you go around asking people "Would you like to be fluent in my tongue?"




Correct!

Although it would be nice somebody warn MW about it.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tongue


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## Nicomon

William Stein said:


> I studied Saussure in Paris 20 years ago and didn't need to copy that from your link, if that's what you're suggesting.


 I wasn't suggesting anything.   You're reading minds again.


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## Argieman

chileno said:


> So in Spanish "lengua" is not part of the mouth?


yes, it´s that part of the mouth that women use all day long, ja!


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## Brimstone

You can read Chomsky´s works on language, or Givón´s or Halliday´s...but Saussure´s work on language is always present when studying Linguistics...


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