# Trzeba + żeby/aby



## DearPrudence

Hi everyone 

Quick question (hopefully).
The book I am using at the moment and which is far from being complete and throw words at me without explaining them (among other things) mentions that you can use "trzeba" + infinitive but also *"trzeba" + [conjugated] żeby or aby + participial form *(whatever it is called in English).
For example:
_Trzeba abyście zwiedzili Kraków._
 
Can I use "żeby" and "aby" equally or is there a rule stating that I should use one in one case or the other one in other cases?

Thank you


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## LilianaB

Hi DearPrudence. It does not sound like good Polish style at all to me, but I mostly deal with very formal and literary Polish texts these days, so you may want to wait for someone's opinion who lives in Poland. The best way to express the same would be: _powinniscie zwiedzic Krakow_.


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## Jakub Groncki

I agree with LilianaB  In this case "żeby" and "aby" are interchangeable however the conjugated form of "aby" sounds a bit obsolete to me. And there is no rule that says whether you should use "aby" or "żeby"  Powodzenia w dalszej nauce!


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## DearPrudence

Dziękuję (oh, and I forgot to add that this book is full of mistakes... )



> Powodzenia w dalszej nauce!


I'm only studying on my lunch breaks so take it easy!


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## kknd

DearPrudence said:


> Dziękuję (oh, and I forgot to add that this book is full of mistakes... )
> I'm only studying on my lunch breaks so take it easy!


it was not mistake—it was grammatically correct and completely understandable sentence; only thing is that it seems to be somewhat formal or old-fashioned (you could hear it on country-side). nowadays people tend to use _powinieneś_ + inf. (you should…) or _trzeba_ + inf. (one should…) where second option could be seen as little bit more polite as an impersonal construction or indirect suggestion, ie. _powinieneś iść pod prysznic_, _trzeba iść pod prysznic_; also _trzeba się zbierać_ as encouragment for other guests to leave the host (or as a signal to the host of the leaving intent).


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## DearPrudence

Thanks, kknd, for the explanation 
I didn't say that this was a mistake, just that among other things (one being not explaining much), this book also contains mistakes, which is annoying.


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## LilianaB

_Trzeba żebyście zwiedzili Krakow_ is good Polish style? This is something new. It is a pure calque, from a Germanic language.  Trzeba iść pod prysznic is Ok, but not the previous one.


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## dreamlike

No, it's the exact opposite of what can be called a good Polish style. *Trzeba wam zwiedzić Kraków *- this would be a quaint way of conveing the idea, of course no-one speaks like that in Poland these days, apart from maybe the elderly .. but *Trzeba żebyście zwiedzieli Kraków? *This doesn't sound right.


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## LilianaB

It does not sound right to me either, but I don't have that much contact with spoken Polish. Byłoby dobrze, żebyscie zwiedzili Krakow.


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## dreamlike

Maybe I was too quick in dismissing it as "not right" - it appears to be perfectly fine, but typical of the language used in the Bible. 

Byłoby dobrze, żebyscie zwiedzili Krakow <-- yes, that sounds more like a contemporary Polish.


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## DearPrudence

Thanks again.
And *byłoby *= ? (I suppose it is some form of "być"?)

(and I just want to learn some contemporary POlish of course, not literary Polish)


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## LilianaB

Yes I agree. Something like _trzeba wam_, _powiadam wam _is totally archaic, or perhaps still a calque.  Trzeba wam is a word for word translation from Russian, or perhaps an older Slavic construction.


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## dreamlike

Hi, DearPrudence.

Byłoby dobrze, gdybyście/żebyście... = It would be good if you could...


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## LilianaB

_It would be good if you visited Krakow_, sort of.    _It might be interesting for you to visit Krakow_. (cross-posted)


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## DearPrudence

Ok, so "*Byłoby*" = impersonal form in the conditional whose infinitive is "być"?
+ gdybyście = ?

(sorry for all the stupid questions but as I said, I am really a beginner)


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## LilianaB

Yes, but also have to add an adverb: Byłoby dobrze, źle, miło, wspaniale etc.   Good, bad, nice, wonderful.


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## DearPrudence

DearPrudence said:


> + gdybyście = ?


Thanks


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## Rallino

DearPrudence said:


> Ok, so "*Byłoby*" = impersonal form in the conditional whose infinitive is "być"?
> + gdybyście = ?
> 
> (sorry for all the stupid questions but as I said, I am really a beginner)



_Gdyby_ means "if". _Jeżeli _and_ jeśli_ also mean "if". I think they're all interchangeable.

You use the short form of verb to be with it, to make a conditional sentence

_gdybym __przeczytali tą książkę_... if I (had) read this book,...
_gdybyś 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 ... _if you (thou) read this book,...
_gdyby  〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 ... _if he/she/they read this book,...
_gdybym 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃 ... _if we read this book,...
*gdybyście 〃 〃 〃 〃 〃  〃 ... if you (all) read this book,...*


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## LilianaB

Hi, Rallino. It is not so easy unfortunately. They are not totally interchangeable, but at the early stages of learning they may be considered almost interchangeable.  Jeśli is better than Jeżeli, as an almost interchangeable word.  Gdybym przeczytał, jeślibym przeczytał.


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## Roy776

Rallino said:


> _Gdyby_ means "if". _Jeżeli _and_ jeśli_ also mean "if". I think they're all interchangeable.
> 
> _gdybym __przeczyta*ł**i* / przeczytała t*ę* książkę_... if I (had) read this book,...
> _gdybyś przeczytał / przeczytała tę książkę ... _if you (thou) read this book,...
> _gdyby przeczytał / _przeczytała tę książkę ... if he/she/they read this book,...
> _gdyby*ś*m*y* przeczytali / przeczytały tę książkę... _if we read this book,...
> _gdybyście przeczytali / przeczytały tę książkę... _if you (all) read this book,...



 This lacked vital information and also had some mistakes in it (the ones I highlighted in red).

Maybe I'm still slightly wrong about this, but I use gdyby only in conditional sentences, when I really actually use the conditional form.

Gdybyś to zrobił, twoja matka byłaby na Ciebie zła. (*If you did* this, your mother *would be* angry at you.)
Jeśli to robisz, twoja matka będzie na Ciebie zła.  (*If you do* this, your mother *will be* angry at you.)


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## Rallino

You're right of course, thanks for the corrections. I'm a bit rusty. I tried to answer the question that no-one else seemed to bother.



> Maybe I'm still slightly wrong about this, but I use gdyby only in  conditional sentences, when I really actually use the conditional form



I think you can use conditional with_ Jeśli_ as well. As in _Jeśli_ _bym to zrobił__._


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## LilianaB

In colloquial speech, I think people use "gdyby" the way Rallino said. I think they still do it, at least, since I don't really have that much contact with colloquial Polish speech. Tę is Ok -- it is grammatical, but many people would use Tą, since tę sounds really stilted, although I love formal language, or diplomatic language, especially Polish. I personally strongly dislike tę, and so do many people, but it is considered grammatical. So, in a test, you better use tę. Even the Polish Consul does not use tę. Some people might though.


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## dreamlike

Roy776 said:


> Maybe I'm still slightly wrong about this, but I use gdyby only in conditional sentences, when I really actually use the conditional form.
> Gdybyś to zrobił, twoja matka byłaby na Ciebie zła. (*If you did* this, your mother *would be* angry at you.)
> Jeśli to robisz, twoja matka będzie na Ciebie zła.  (*If you do* this, your mother *will be* angry at you.)



These are fine sentences, Roy. (Some people may cringe at "matka", though) Note that in the first one I could well use *jeślibyś,* as pointed out by Rallino, except you write it as one word. 
_Jeślibyś to zrobił, twoja matka byłaby na ciebie zła._

A couple more of sentences using "gdyby/jeśli" 
(1a) Gdybym (jakbym, colloquial) wcześniej wiedział o przyjęciu, to bym się na nim pojawił. 
(1b) Jeślibym (jakbym, colloquial) wcześniej wiedział o przyjęciu, to bym się na nim pojawił.
(2a) Gdybyś (jakbyś, colloquial) mnie posłuchał, nie doszłoby do tego.
(2b) Jeślibyś (jakbyś, colloquial) mnie posłuchał, nie doszłoby do tego.

There's no significant difference between them, but "Jeśli-" form is far less common. In spoken language, most people wouldn't use either of them, and go with _jakbym/jakbyś/etc._ instead.


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## DearPrudence

Ok, thanks everyone and especially Rallino for putting the thread back on track.
Please note I am an utter beginning and I can only understand about one tenth of what you are saying and the rest is not helping me (but rather putting me off, but maybe this is the aim).


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## dreamlike

Please write what is that you don't understand as far as my last post goes, and I'll be more than glad to help, DP  Polish is not an easy language to learn, but don't get discouraged too early.


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## DearPrudence

It's just that I wonder how "trzeba + żeby/aby" (original question) is related to "if you did this..." 
Fine discussion for a café, not so much for a linguistic forum that is supposed to address a _specific _question (and basic learners like me don't need to be overwhelmed with too many details: that is pretty counterproductive ). But well, at least you seem to be having fun... I'll ask my other questions here in about 10 years or something, if I haven't given up by then.


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## dreamlike

DearPrudence said:


> It's just that I wonder how "trzeba + żeby/aby" (original question) is related to "if you did this..."



It's not. 

I see Roy/Rallino brought this (the conditional sentences in Polish) up because in your earlier post you had asked about "Gdybyście" (and you asked, I suppose, because Liliana had used this word earlier on). 

You're right, it's better to adhere to the rule "one thing at a time". I can see how you can get discouraged.


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## LilianaB

"Trzeba żeby" is a wrong construction, in my opinion, in contemporary Polish. The other conditional construction is a perfect translation of your original phrase -- the one you wanted to translate using the "trzeba" construction. I suggest you get a different book to learn Polish, because it looks like this one has a lot of mistakes. It should be either "powinniscie" or "byłoby dobrze żebyscie zwiedzli Krakow". "Trzeba isć bo już późno"* is a perfect construction. "Trzeba czytac książki.* "Trzeba" plus infinitive is Ok, I am not sure if to express everything, though. In certain contexts it is Ok.

Polish is a very difficult language, but you may succeed, of course. You just need a very good book. Maybe some people know a book that is really good. I learned Polish the natural way, so I don't really know. It is also to listen to a radio. When I was a child I listened to a Polish radio, this is why I really have a very good accent -- like the media people of those times. No one in my family spoke Polish this way, so I think the exposure is very important. If you could watch some live Polish  that would be really helpful.

* We have to go because it is late.
* It is good to read books. You have to read books.  

I could imagine "trzeba żeby"in contemporay Polish in a construction like:"trzeba żeby wszyscy ludzie bylli szczęsliwi."  

It should be the aim that all people be happy. (it impersonal use of this construction here, perhaps this is why it does not fit with everything else -- when some more definite acts are meant, especially of personal character -- directed towards particular people).  This is just good for more universal statements, and slogans, although even then it may sound a little bit outdated.

All here depends on context and convention. You could use this construction in some contexts, when I think about it more, if it is really a sort of neccassity, order almost, and only in certain collocations. "Trzeba żebyscie wyszli wczesniej "sounds for some reason Ok. "Trzeba zebyscie poszli do kina "-- does not. You have to leave earlier. You have to go to the movies."Trzeba zebyscie zwiedzili Krakow" sounds really awkward, to me at least.


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## Thomas1

Hello, DP,

I’ve come a little late to the party and hope you haven’t stopped studying Polish already.

The sentence _Trzeba*,* żebyście zwiedzili Kraków. _is correct although it may sound a tad formal in everyday colloquial use, but it doesn’t jar on my ears to tell the truth. Its semantic equivalent _Trzeba*, *abyście zwiedzili Kraków._ is also fine; however, its degree of formality is even higher because “aby” is a more formal equivalent of “żeby” in this particular sentence which makes it inadequate for everday use. Both "żeby" and "aby" in the given sentences are conjunctions just like “que” in: _Il faut que vous visitiez/fassiez du tourisme à Cracovie._ or “that” in: _It is necessary that you visit/go sightseeing in Cracow._ Some alternatives to your sentence from the textbook have already been given, another one can be: _Musicie (koniecznie) zobaczyć Kraków. – _Literally:_ Vous devez (nécessairement) voir Cracovie. –  You  must (necessarily) see Cracow._

I find “trzeba” similar to the French “il faut”:
_Trzeba się tym zająć. – Il faut s’en occuper._
_Trzeba, żebyście wzięli się do pracy. – Il faut que vous vous mettiez au travail__._


To illustrate the difference in language register between “żeby” and “aby”, I’ll use them in a different function: the one expressing purpose (because I think French and English have their respective equivalents that also differ in the degree of formality).



(1)*
Żeby *kupić ten dom, musimy wziąć pożyczkę..*
Aby *kupić ten dom, musimy wziąć pożyczkę.Pour acheter cette maison, nous devons faire un emprunt.Afin d’acheter cette maison, nous devons fair un emprunt.To buy this house, we need to take out a loan.In order to buy this house, we need to take out a loan.(2)
Musimy coś zrobić*,* *żeby *mieli gdzie mieszkać..
Musimy działać*,* *aby *młodzi Polacy mieli pracę. (A statment made, for example, by a politician.)Nous devons faire quelque chose pour qu’ils aient un endroit où vivre.Nous devons agir afin que les jeunes Polonais aient un travail.We must do something so that they have somewhere to live.We must act in order that young Poles (should) have a job.

[Note that, in this position of “żeby/aby” clauses, a preceding comma is obligatory, unlike in French or in English where you don’t use it.]

General notes regarding “żeby/aby” clauses: 


if the subject of the main clause and subordinate clause introduced by “żeby” or “aby” is the same, the verb in the subordinate clause goes in the infinitive (illustrated by the first three). 
if the subject of the main clause and the subordinate clause introduced by “żeby” or “aby” is different, the concjuntion “żeby” or “aby” is appended on an appropriate personal ending and the verb in the subordinate clause has the form of the 3rd person singular or plural of the past tense (depending on whether the main clause has a singular or plural subject) – which is in fact our Polish subjunctive, almost inexistent in Polish grammars, but quite useful to explain certain things when you learn languages – (illustrated by the second three). 
the degree of formality of the Polish conjunction “aby” may not be exactly equivalent to that of the French “afin que” or the English “in order that”. There is yet another purpose conjunction “ażeby”, which, to my experience, is even more formal than "aby". 

Some examples of “trzeba, aby” and “aby” alone along with parallel texts in French (you can change “aby” to “żeby” in the search box to see its distribution).


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## Ben Jamin

Thomas1 said:


> Hello, DP,
> 
> I’ve come a little late to the party and hope you haven’t stopped studying Polish already.
> 
> The sentence _Trzeba*,* żebyście zwiedzili Kraków. _is correct although may sound a tad formal in everyday colloquial use, but it doesn’t jar on my ears to tell the truth. It’s semantic equivalent _Trzeba*, *abyście zwiedzili Kraków._ is also fine; however, its degree of formality is even higher because “aby” is a more formal equivalent of “żeby” in this particular sentence which makes it inadequate for everday use. Both "żeby" and "aby" in the given sentences are conjunctions just like “que” in: _Il faut que vous visitiez/fassiez du tourisme à Cracovie._ or “that” in: _It is necessary that you visit/go sightseeing in Cracow._ Some alternatives to your sentence from the textbook have already been given, another one can be: _Musicie (koniecznie) zobaczyć Kraków. – _Literally:_ Vous devez (nécessairement) voir Cracovie. –  You  must (necessarily) see Cracow._
> 
> I find “trzeba” similar to the French “il faut”:
> _Trzeba się tym zająć. – Il faut s’en occuper._
> _Trzeba, żebyście wzięli się do pracy. – Il faut que vous vous mettiez au travail__._
> 
> 
> To illustrate the difference in language register between “żeby” and “aby”, I’ll use them in another function: the one expressing aim (because I think French and English have their respective equivalents that also differ in the degree of formality).
> 
> 
> 
> (1)*
> Żeby *kupić ten dom, musimy wziąć pożyczkę..*
> Aby *kupić ten dom, musimy wziąć pożyczkę.Pour acheter cette maison, nous devons faire un emprunt.Afin d’acheter cette maison, nous devons fair un emprunt.To buy this house, we need to take out a loan.In order to buy this house, we need to take out a loan.(2)
> Musimy coś zrobić*,* *żeby *mieli gdzie mieszkać..
> Musimy działać*,* *aby *młodzi Polacy mieli pracę. (A statment made, for example, by a politician.)Nous devons faire quelque chose pour qu’ils aient un endroit où vivre.Nous devons agir afin que les jeunes Polonais aient un travail.We must do something so that they have somewhere to live.We must act in order that young Poles (should) have a job.
> 
> [Note that, in this position of “żeby/aby” clauses, a preceding comma is obligatory, unlike in French or in English where you don’t use it.]
> 
> General notes regarding “żeby/aby” clauses:
> 
> 
> if the subject of the main clause and subordinate clause introduced by “żeby” or “aby” are the same, the verb in the subordinate clause goes in the infinitive (illustrated by the first three).
> if the subject of the main clause and the subordinate clause introduced by “żeby” or “aby” are different, the concjuntion “żeby” or “aby” is appended on an appropriate personal ending and the verb in the subordinate clause has the form of the 3rd person singular or plural of the past tense (depending on whether the main clause has a singular or plural subject) – which is in fact our Polish subjunctive, almost inexistent in Polish grammars, but quite useful to explain certain things when you learn languages – (illustrated by the second three).
> the degree of formality of the Polish conjunction “aby” may not be exactly equivalent to that of the French “afin que” or the English “in order that”. There is yet another purpose conjunction “ażeby”, which, to my experience, is even more formal than the former one.
> 
> Some examples of “trzeba, aby” and “aby” alone along with parallel texts in French (you can change “aby” to “żeby” in the search box to see its distribution).


In my opinion you exaggerate the difference between *żeby *and *aby*.  My first thought was that there was no difference in their use at all, after some reflexion I came to the conclusion that *aby *is used more often in written texts, but the difference it makes can not be compared with your French examples which show a way greater difference in style and register than two Polish sentences that differ only by this one word. In fact, most people wouldn't even notice which one of them was used in a sentence they have just read.


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## Thomas1

If you will read my third point in the part _General notes regarding “żeby/aby” clauses_, you'll notice that I said that. I still think that "żeby" is more common in everyday colloquial Polish and that "aby" is more formal than "żeby" (in the two meanings I wrote about).

EDIT: this is what the National Corpus of the Polish Language gives regarding "żeby" and "aby" distribution (both researched in the PELCRA search engine, in Podkorpus zrównoważony, typ_konwers, kanal_mowiony):
Przeszukiwany zbiór zawiera 240,192,461 słów. Znaleziono *3,640* akapitów pasujących do zapytania  w *0.015s.* Bieżąca strona zawiera 102 przykłady z  13 różnych tekstów.

Przeszukiwany zbiór zawiera 240,192,461 słów. Znaleziono *31* akapitów pasujących do zapytania  w *0.004s.* Bieżąca strona zawiera 33 przykłady z  26 różnych tekstów.​


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