# vosotros / ustedes (en situaciones mixtas)



## SharpBlade

Hola,

Digamos que uso tú con un amigo mío y usted con un profesor en la universidad. Si quiero dirigirme a los dos al mismo tiempo para hacer una pregunta, ¿debo usar vosotros o ustedes? 

¿Saben ustedes cuál.........?
¿Sabéis cuál.....?

Gracias de antemano.


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## blasita

Hola:

Pues no hay ninguna norma escrita sobre lo que se tiene que hacer en esta situación, que yo sepa.

Dando por supuesto que los hablantes usan _vosotros_ (como en la mayor parte de España) y que por lo tanto hay opción a elegir, usaría la forma de _ustedes_; es lo más seguro, lo que siempre está bien en casos de duda. Y en este caso en concreto, usaría sin pensármelo _ustedes_.

Saludos.


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## _SantiWR_

A mí me parece que planteas una situación irreal o imposible. Al menos a mí en mi vida se me surgió semejante duda. Supongo que si el profesor pasa a formar grupo contigo y tu amigo habrá que tutearlo. En cambio si es algo puntual no entiendo la necesidad de incluir a ambos en el mismo sujeto. En cualquier caso yo jamás usaría ustedes con un amigo cuando sólo hay una tercera persona, es ridículo.


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## blasita

_SantiWR_ said:


> En cualquier caso yo jamás usaría ustedes con un amigo cuando sólo hay una tercera persona, es ridículo.


 Pues entonces me estás llamando ridícula, Santi.

En lo que sí estoy de acuerdo es en que yo evitaría esta decisión a toda costa. En este caso en particular dependerá del trato que se tenga normalmente con los profesores; si es de _usted_, sí que usaría _ustedes_ en un contexto universitario si no tuviera más remedio que elegir. Además, en mi decisión influye el hecho de ser extranjero; mi experiencia es que es mejor pecar de 'excesivamente educado' que quedarse corto.


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## _SantiWR_

Bueno, imagina que ese amigo es por ejemplo tu pareja  Concuerdo en que yo evitaría esa decisión, de hecho yo diría que esta es el tipo de duda que solo se le ocurre a un hablante no nativo.


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## blasita

¡Qué complicado! Tienes razón; nunca antes me lo había planteado ...

Sí que personalmente usaría _vosotros_ en la situación que planteas. Pero es que al tratarse de un profesor de universidad, es un colega para mí, y no le trataría en principio de _usted_ (tampoco a mi pareja o a un amigo, claro). La cosa es que siempre mi recomendación a los 'no nativos' ha sido que, en caso de duda, usen _usted/ustedes_. ¿Es lo mejor y tengo razón? Pues igual no, claro.


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## Julvenzor

Las formas de respeto usted/ustedes deben prevalecer sobre las de tuteo tú/vosotros. Es cierto que a tu amigo no le hablarías de _usted_, pero si se le habla de vosotros al profesor (algo que se haría sin duda en España) se le estaría 'faltando el respeto' a éste. Pienso que es mejor darle a uno el respeto que no tiene (tu amigo) que despojárselo a quien lo merece (el profesor).

Un saludo.


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## inib

No voy a opinar sobre la mejor forma, porque, efectivamente, siendo extranjera, es la clase de duda que me podría asaltar.
Solo quiero decir que no me parece que una situación así sea tan improbable. Si estoy con mi pareja y otra persona a la que suelo tratar de Usted, seguro que soltaría sin pensar "¿Habéis visto eso?" y luego me pondría roja


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## srb62

For me a situation like this doesn't seem to be 'unreal' or 'improbable' - I can imagine plenty situations where these choices/problems/dilemmas might exist (or at least appear to exist for a non-native speaker).
One thing that I wanted to ask, would it be possible (or better put, likely/realistic) to recast things using an 'impersonal' 'se'?  For example, "¿Se sabe cúal......?"


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## blasita

srb62 said:


> One thing that I wanted to ask, would it be possible (or better put, likely/realistic) to recast things using an 'impersonal' 'se'?  For example, "*¿Se sabe cúal......?*"


 As I said, I think I'll try to avoid the situation, avoid using a conjugated verb form and so the _vosotros _vs _ustedes_ if it's not clear to me which is more appropriate. I think that's possible and one way out of the dilemma in certain contexts. Also:_ ¿Alguien sabe ...? _(it sounds a bit informal to me). But —I know this seems to contradict what I've just said— I must say I always prefer to use those conjugated forms, to be 'more personal' when talking to people, especially to only two people. And it's just that, of course, it would depend on the whole situation, but generally, I'd rather not use an impersonal structure if I'm talking to two people.

Let's see what others say.


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## inib

srb62 said:


> For me a situation like this doesn't seem to be 'unreal' or 'improbable' - I can imagine plenty situations where these choices/problems/dilemmas might exist (or at least appear to exist for a non-native speaker).
> One thing that I wanted to ask, would it be possible (or better put, likely/realistic) to recast things using an 'impersonal' 'se'? For example, "¿Se sabe cúal......?"


My non-native (and therefore possibly unqualified) impression about that possibility of yours is that it could sound a bit rude, as if you were ignoring the people you are talking to, or in some situations even a bit accusing, sort of like "if it's common knowledge, why haven't I been told?".
But don't take my word for it .


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## blasita

Yes, I think that it may also sound rude in some contexts. But we do need a whole sentence and a context. It can also sound rude to address two people as _vosotros_ when not appropriate.

I could use an impersonal structure in some situations, in informal spoken language. For example (talking to two friends): _¿Qué? ¿Se sabe ya de una vez dónde vamos/se va a ir en Nochevieja? _

In a different context (possible in a more formal context or when you feel you should address one of them as _usted_),  I might use it just to be more tentative (even if those two people are the ones responsible to make the decision). For example: _ ¿Se conoce ya la decisión ...?_ It doesn't mean that this would be my preference, though.

Just a few thoughts.


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## _SantiWR_

inib said:


> No voy a opinar sobre la mejor forma, porque, efectivamente, siendo extranjera, es la clase de duda que me podría asaltar.
> Solo quiero decir que no me parece que una situación así sea tan improbable. Si estoy con mi pareja y otra persona a la que suelo tratar de Usted, seguro que soltaría sin pensar "¿Habéis visto eso?" y luego me pondría roja



I would never address them both as an item, that's the imposible situation for me, and I have never thought of that as a problem. On the other hand, a lot of people still use the respect form with their parents-in-law, so you're right that's  actually quite normal to be with both kinds of people at the same time. Personally, I have never seen anyone addressing to their wife and mather-in-law as "ustedes", but I wouldn't be that surprised if they used "vosotros", just as you said.


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## merquiades

In that weird situation I would go for the singular.  Sorry, I'd ignore my friend/ pareja and address the other person as Vd.  ¿Qué le apetece tomar?  The friend can speak/ give an opinion if (s)he wants.  If not, later on in the conversation, I might address him/her and say ¿Y tú?  ¿Quieres una cerveza?  Yes, it's possible to avoid this situation...
Perhaps in some contexts I might include myself in the formula to avoid choosing.  Vamos a tomar algo....  ¿Nos sentamos aquí?
In this kind of situation in an informal place like Spain, tú/ vosotros will appear very soon probably initiated by the other person.  It seems to me that not a lot of people like being addressed as Vd./ Vds. anymore, especially for a long time.


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## Gabriel

I just want to add that this dilemma is only possible in Spain (and then not in some parts of it), since in the rest of the Spanish speaking world the "ustedes" is the only third person plural personal pronoun in use, regardless of the degree of familiarity or formality, for example:

To my girlfriend: ¿Quieres/Querés algo de beber?
To the proffessor: ¿Quiere algo de beber?
To both of them: ¿Quiren algo de beber? (which is also what I would say to a group of very close friends)
"¿Queréis algo de beber?", while understandable, is never used in most places outside Spain.


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## duvija

Gabriel said:


> I just want to add that this dilemma is only possible in Spain (and then not in some parts of it), since in the rest of the Spanish speaking world the "ustedes" is the only third person plural personal pronoun in use, regardless of the degree of familiarity or formality, for example:
> 
> To my girlfriend: ¿Quieres/Querés algo de beber?
> To the proffessor: ¿Quiere algo de beber?
> To both of them: ¿Quiren algo de beber? (which is also what I would say to a group of very close friends)
> "¿Queréis algo de beber?", while understandable, is never use in most places outside Spain.



Yes, agreed! It's not a problem for us. "Ustedes" covers both situations, and as many people known or barely known as you want. So the question is only for Spain.


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## blasita

Gabriel said:


> I just want to add that this dilemma is only possible in Spain (and then not in some parts of it),





duvija said:


> Yes, agreed! It's not a problem for us. "Ustedes" covers both situations, and as many people known or barely known as you want. So the question is only for Spain.


 Exactly, thank you very much for pointing it out, guys. Actually, I tried to make a comment on that at very beginning of this thread but it's worth insisting on it:


blasita said:


> Dando por supuesto que los hablantes usan _vosotros_ (como en la mayor parte de España) y que por lo tanto hay opción a elegir, [...]



Un cordial saludo a ambos.


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## Gabriel

It's true. Due credit must go to you, blasita.


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## Milton Sand

SharpBlade said:


> Hola*:*
> 
> Digamos que uso «tú» con un amigo mío y «usted» con un profesor en la universidad. Si quiero dirigirme a los dos al mismo tiempo para hacer una pregunta, ¿debo usar «vosotros» o «ustedes»?
> 
> _¿Saben [ustedes] cuál...?
> ¿Sabéis cuál...?_
> 
> Gracias de antemano.


Hi,
I haven't read the whole thread. I'm just surprised about the thread's growth because I supposed "ustedes" were actually uncommon in Spain. Their very President uses "vosotros" when addressing the nation, according to what I've seen on TV news; hence my conjecture. 

By the way, you often won't need the explicit «ustedes» when having your speakers in front of you, unless having been talking about some else.

SharpBlade, are your speakers _americanos _or _españoles_?

No imagino cómo sería tu enredo si, entonces, tu amigo fuera americano y tu profesor, español. 

Saludos,


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## juan082937

SharpBlade said:


> Hola,
> 
> Digamos que uso tú con un amigo mío y usted con un profesor en la universidad. Si quiero dirigirme a los dos al mismo tiempo para hacer una pregunta, ¿debo usar vosotros o ustedes?
> 
> ¿Saben ustedes cuál.........?
> ¿Sabéis cuál.....?
> 
> Gracias de antemano.



En Latinoamérica se usa más el Usted y Ustedes y casi nunca VOSOTROS, este de más uso en España.

*¿Quisiera preguntarles tanto a mi compañero de clase como al profesor cuál es la capital del Tibet?*


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## blasita

Gabriel, lo siento, creo que no me expresé del todo bien. Por si acaso lo aclaro. Lo que quise decir es que gracias, porque siempre viene bien insistir en ello aunque yo ya lo hubiera mencionado.





Milton Sand said:


> I haven't read the whole thread. I'm just surprised about the thread's growth because I supposed "ustedes" were actually uncommon in Spain. Their very President uses "vosotros" when addressing the nation, according to what I've seen on TV news; hence my conjecture.


 Does he? I think that the most common way they use is the _nosotros_ form: _tenemos que .../vamos a ..._, etc_._ I mean, I'm just saying I've never noticed it.

I would not say that _ustedes_ is uncommon in Spain, Milton; it's just a question of speakers and context.


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## inib

Milton Sand said:


> ...I supposed "ustedes" were actually uncommon in Spain. Their very President uses "vosotros" when addressing the nation, according to what I've seen on TV news;...


I don't know if Rajoy differentiates between civilians and the military, but here's an example of him addressing some "españoles":


> "Ustedes llevan la defensa más allá de nuestras fronteras y nos hacen aquí más seguros", añadió el presidente, que llegó al poder hace un año.


(Taken from: http://www.invertia.com/noticias/rajoy-felicita-navidad-militares-espanoles-exterior-2799921.htm


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## merquiades

As many have said, "Vds." is definitely used in Spain, it's just a very formal way of addressing people.  It's the plural of "Vd.":  "Señores, siéntense aquí".  But people would always say, "tú y Raúl sentaos (sentaros) aquí."


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## Milton Sand

Hi,
Oh, then, could I say that Spaniards use "ustedes" when adressing directly and formally a specific group of people?


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## merquiades

Milton Sand said:


> Hi,
> Oh, then, could I say that Spaniards use "ustedes" when adressing directly and formally a specific group of people?



Yes, Milt.  I believe you certainly could affirm that.  Yet, it's worth noting that most Spaniards are less formal than in preceding generations.  For example, no prof at university (at Madrid Complutense) ever used Vd./ Vds. with us, and we normally used tú with all of them, even first names with them, which surprised me at first (being used to Doctor XX), but it's kind of nice after a while.  That's why I said in #14 I think the situation where you talk to one person in "Vd." and another in "tú" won't normally last very long.  In my experience in 20 minutes everyone will be saying "tú" and "vosotros" even if somebody is very old.


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## blasita

Milton Sand said:


> Oh, then, could I say that Spaniards use "ustedes" when adressing directly and formally a specific group of people?


 Hello again, Milton. Yes, of course.

Tú+tú=_vosotros._ Informal.
Usted+usted= _ustedes. _Formal.
Tú+usted/usted+tú=_the question of this thread_. The majority of Spaniards have two options: _vosotros_ and _ustedes_. Context and personal preferences may apply.

By the way, as to presidents, they would use _ustedes_, or more often and depending on the context, the _nosotros_ form. But never say never, and if you're sure that you've heard Rajoy addressing the nation as _vosotros_, that's it, but I think it's not common at all.

Un saludo.


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## KirkandRafer

merquiades said:


> It seems to me that not a lot of people like being addressed as Vd./ Vds. anymore, especially for a long time.


This one is a key point to understand the difficulties the own Spaniards have to determine the right way to address people in some situations. While it is more or less clear that you are supposed to use 'usted' when the age gap is noticeable or there is a difference in 'ranking' between the speakers, other than that it is usually up to the speakers whether to address each other using one form or the other. To be honest, it is a mess. Some people, mostly people over 50, consider it rude if they are addressed with 'tú' by unknown people. On the other side younger generations seem to believe that using 'usted' is a way to keep your distances, which at the same time is regarded as impolite by some.  I call it the _Váyase usted a la mierda syndrome_. Many more, whether they are sixty years old or thirty years old, don't like 'usted' as it makes them feel old...

I usually address strangers over thirty years old using 'usted', unless they ask me to do otherwise or hint that they are not comfortable with my addressing them that way. But it is only my personal usage, there is not a clear-cut rule regarding this anymore. There are even exceptions to those two rules -age difference/ranking- I mentioned above. For instance, the ranking 'rule' does not apply that well at university. Most of my professors were / are addressed with 'tú' from the get-go, since the way they interact with their students makes it virtually impossible for the latter to do otherwise.


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## merquiades

KirkandRafer said:


> On the other side younger generations seem to believe that using 'usted' is a way to keep your distances, which at the same time is regarded as impolite by some.  I call it the _Váyase usted a la mierda syndrome_. Many more, whether they are sixty years old or thirty years old, don't like 'usted' as it makes them feel old...



Yes, I agree completely.  I've had those Vd. situations with people that are not at all friendly.  The tone is... don't you even think I care at all about you.  We've got distance.  But also, just thinking.... older ladies I know get a painful look on their faces when someone addresses them with Vd./Vds. like no,no please it's Alicia and Marta, we're cool and young


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