# Searching for Wodanaz.... in Ouranos? Comparing Eosphorus and Aurvandil/Auzandil.



## Thealaskansandman

Ive been searching the history of the word Odin to the Proto-Germanic Wodanaz. Which is a reconstructed form of the word from which Woden, Wuotan, Wodan, and Odin descend. They state that its related to "Raging, Frenzy, possessed and so on."
Im not opposed to the reconstructed form, my issue is its attestation dating, and interactions previously with Rome and Greek speaking areas like Constantinople/ Byzantium. 
When looking at the Greek god Ouranos who in Latin was Caelus the Nightly Personification of the Sky, in opposition to Zeus Peter/ Jupiter, the Lord of the day sky. I noticed what appeared to me to be a consistency in the phonetics between Ouranos and Wodanaz that is similar to Eosphorus and Aurvandil (norse) Auzandil (Gothic) and (Earendel). I double checked Grimm's Law, Verner's Law, and Grassman's law. So the Ph in Greek comes from Proto Indo European BH, that in Germanic languages became V and F. But that the S became a Z and R in Germanic languages. Thus Eos becomes Auz in Norse, but Eosph-(orus) became Aurv (andil) in Norse. Ok. So far good. Next the R in Phorus is becoming a D in Auzandil and Aurvandil. Ok, good, got it. Now, applying this to Ouranos.
Ouranos, we take the R and turn it into a D and the S, we turn into a Z. Thus, with out changing vowels, we arrive roughly at Oudanoz. Since there is a rounding of the mouth in Ouranos' first vowel/Diphthong, arriving at a W in Germanic seems likely in my mind. Thus getting Wodanaz or Wodanoz. Most linguists trace the etymology of the name _Οὐρανός_ to a Proto-greek form _*Worsanós_ , Worsanos and Wodanaz/Wodanoz are pretty darn close.
We have Eosphorus appearing in Norse as Aurvandil and Zeus/Jupiter appearing as Tyr/Tyw in Norse. So why not Ouranos?
We know that Germans and Norsemen served in the Varangian guard at Constantinople, plus they had intimate contact with Rome and serving in the Roman armies. 
Snorri list Azgard as East of the Tanais river, and Vanaheim as West of the Tanais river, which flows into the BlackSea. In land with Kurgens, where the Kurgen theory proposes that Germans came from. Further, this land was in close contact or control by Rome and then the East Greek Speaking Empire under Constantinople. 
There are similarities in the myths too, with Loki stealing Idunn and the Golden apples, then much later killing the Golden invincible Baldur with an arrow. This having echoes of the Golden Apple of Discordia (Very Loki like figure) at Wedding of Peleus and Thetis and the abduction of Helen later when Achilles is grown. The Golden Invincible Achilles who is slain with an arrow. 
 The Trojan War and the Illiad are the oldest poem/Story in the Western World from the Blind poet Homer. The Aesir and Vanir war see's the mead of poetry made and bestowed upon Bragi from the corpse of Kvasir. Bragi being husband to the Kidnapped Idunn. 

Am I mad? Crazy? Seeing things? What are your thoughts?

As Snorri list Azgard and Vanaheim as here on Earth, and not in Midgard, one can assume from him, that Midgard is on Earth too, and not all of Earth.
The Mediterranean, so named by Rome, means "Middle Earth/Land" same as Midgard and Middengeard. With the Valkyrie Olrun being daughter of Kjarr of Valland. Which was Caesar of Roman-Gaul. Making me wonder about Valerian the Emperor, and the words that derive from his name, like Value and Valor. Something that makes me think of the slain in Battle. Bringing me back to the Val-Kyries who take the slain from the battle field.

Let me know your thoughts. I know the professionals don't talk about this and maybe there is a reason why, like I am wrong, or maybe they are just wrong and blind? Lmk.


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> So the Ph in Greek comes from Proto Indo European BH, that in Germanic languages became V and F.


Germanic f is from PIE p. PIE bh became Germanic b.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> Germanic f is from PIE p. PIE bh became Germanic b.


Indo-European sound laws - Wikipedia
Yes but so did Bh become F sometimes according to the sound chart, and V in English. Either way though, the Eosphorus to Aurvandil and Auzandil is excepted by Etymologist where as Ouranos to Wodanaz isn't mentioned though its the same sound shifts


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> Germanic f is from PIE p. PIE bh became Germanic b.


High German consonant shift - Wikipedia        This would be another example.  
/β/ > /b/[edit]​West Germanic *ƀ (presumably pronounced [β]), which was an allophone of /b/ used in medial position, shifted to (Upper German) Old High German /b/ between two vowels, and also after /l/. Unshifted languages retained a fricative, which became /v/ between vowels and /f/ in coda position.


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> Yes but so did Bh become F


Not in Germanic.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> Not in Germanic.


I shared two links saying otherwise but ok.
Either way, my point still stands. The sound shifts seen from Greek Eosphorus to Aurvandil or Auzandil can be seen between Ouranos to Wodanaz.

The Old Norse name _Aurvandill_ stems from a Proto-Germanic form reconstructed as _*Auza-wandilaz_,[1] _*Auzi-wandalaz_,[7] or _*Auzo-wandiloz_.[8] It is cognate with Old English _Ēarendel_, Old High German _Aurendil_ (≈ _Orentil_), and Lombardic _Auriwandalo_.[1][2][9] The Gothic word _auzandil_, translating the Koine Greek ἑωσφόρος (_eosphoros_, 'dawnbringer'), may also be related
Aurvandill - Wikipedia


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> I shared two links saying otherwise


The b-f merger and later re-separation that gave us English _have _but German _haben _is a later and unrelated phenomenon in *West* Germanic, not in Germanic.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> The b-f merger and later re-separation that gave us English have but German haben is a later and unrelated phenomenon in *West* Germanic, not in Germanic.


Ahh, ok. Though, again. Eosphorus to Aurvandil and Auzandil is generally accepted. Im curious why. And why if that is accepted, why not Ouranos to Wodanaz. It appears to have the same sound shifts
I am new to etymology but love the subject and eager to learn more. Thank you


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## bearded

Thealaskansandman said:


> excepted


You mean 'accepted', I think.


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> The Old Norse name _Aurvandill_ stems from a Proto-Germanic form reconstructed as _*Auza-wandilaz_,[1] _*Auzi-wandalaz_,[7] or _*Auzo-wandiloz_.[8] It is cognate with Old English _Ēarendel_, Old High German _Aurendil_ (≈ _Orentil_), and Lombardic _Auriwandalo_.[1][2][9] The Gothic word _auzandil_, translating the Koine Greek ἑωσφόρος (_eosphoros_, 'dawnbringer'), may also be related
> Aurvandill - Wikipedia


I suppose you mention all that because of the z>r shift. This shift affects North and West Germanic and is also unrelated to proto-Germanic.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> I suppose you mention all that because of the z>r shift. This shift affects North and West Germanic and is also unrelated to proto-Germanic.


Im speaking on Proto Germanic word Wodanaz and its relation to Ouranos. Using Eo*s*pho*r*us to Au*z*an*d*il and Au*rv*an*d*il as an example of some of the same sound shifts (Idk if that means they are loan words or just cognates). The R is becoming a D and the S is becoming a Z. These are the two important similarities that look to pop up between Ou*r*ano*s* to Wo*d*ana*z*.


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> The R is becoming a D and the S is becoming a Z.


Nord and West Germanic z merged into r in a two stage process. In Old Norse, r an R (R is used to represent the rhotacised z) were still distinguishable sounds. This process works in one direction and can never explain z as a reflex  of an earlier r.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> Nord and West Germanic z merged into r in a two stage process. In Old Norse, r an R (R is used to represent the rhotacised z) were still distinguishable sounds. This process works in one direction and can never explain z as a reflex  of an earlier r.


Im confused. Im not talking about Z becoming R (Except I guess in the S in Eosphorus becoming R in Aurvandil. But im more concerned with the S to Z and R to D.)


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> Im confused. Im not talking about Z becoming R


Sure you do. You keep mentioning East Germanic _Auzandil_ and North Germanic _Aurvandil_. If these two are related (which is possible, even probable, but not assured) then it features the z > r shift of West and North Germanic. This can never be used to explain how a Greek Rho should end up as d in Proto-Germanic.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> Sure you do. You keep mentioning East Germanic _Auzandil_ and North Germanic _Aurvandil_. If these two are related (which is possible, even probable, but not assured) then it features the z > r shift of West and North Germanic. This can never be used to explain how a Greek Rho should end up as d in Proto-Germanic.


No, I mention Eospho_*r*_us to Auzan*d*il and Aurvan*d*il. In relation to Ou*r*anos to Wo*d*anaz. Since the R is changing to a D in Eospho_*r*_us to Auzan_*d*_il and Aurvan*d*il. This part is a D to R, but not a Z to R, or a Z to D. Just D to R. Which is definitely happening. For what ever reason.
I do mention another part of Wodana*z*, in relation to Eo_*s*_phorus to Au*z*andil and Au*r*vandil. In which the S becomes a Z and R in Germanic languages. Here Im wondering about the S to Z and or R.
These are two separate shifts that im pointing out.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> Sure you do. You keep mentioning East Germanic _Auzandil_ and North Germanic _Aurvandil_. If these two are related (which is possible, even probable, but not assured) then it features the z > r shift of West and North Germanic. This can never be used to explain how a Greek Rho should end up as d in Proto-Germanic.


West Germanic and North Germanic could have picked these up from independent interactions with Greek speaking Byzantium, no? They don't have to be in a direct descent of East to North, does it?


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> No, I mention Eospho_*r*_us to Auzan*d*il....


There is no such sound shift. You misread the explanation in Wikipedia:
_The Gothic word auzandil, *translating* the Koine Greek ἑωσφόρος (eosphoros, 'dawnbringer'), may also be related._​


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> West Germanic and North Germanic could have picked these up from independent interactions with Greek speaking Byzantium, no? They don't have to be in a direct descent of East to North, does it?


Not without a time machine. North Germanic shifts can never explain anything Proto-Germanic.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> There is no such sound shift. You misread the explanation in Wikipedia:
> _The Gothic word auzandil, *translating* the Koine Greek ἑωσφόρος (eosphoros, 'dawnbringer'), may also be related._​


Care to explain? They all appear to be the Morning Star. Aurvandil seems to be related to the Morning Star Rigel specifically. Earendel is also used for Christ, the Morning Star in the Old English Poem Christ I. Are they not related words? Cognates?


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> Not without a time machine. North Germanic shifts can never explain anything Proto-Germanic.


To my understanding, Grimms law happened to all Germanic Languages, including Proto-Germanic. Only Verner's Law applies to West Germanic's High German sound shift from Low German. So to my understanding, I wasn't trying to use North Germanic sound shifts to explain Proto-Germanic
*West Germanic and North Germanic could have picked these up from independent interactions with Greek speaking Byzantium, no? They don't have to be in a direct descent of East to North, does it?*
This was my question which never mentioned explaining Proto-Germanic. And that question was specifically about Auzandil vs Aurvandil is relation to Eosphorus. Which neither of those words are Proto- Germanic


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> Are they not related words? Cognates?


No, they are not cognate. _Auz*and*il _contains the same root as the English_ verb *wand*er. _Greek_ ἑωσφόρος _contains the verb _φόρο = bear, bring, carry_. The Germanic word means something like _dawnwanderer_ and the Greek word means something like _dawnbringer_. The meanings are related but not the words.


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> To my understanding, Grimms law happened to all Germanic Languages, including Proto-Germanic. Only Verner's Law applies to West Germanic's High German sound shift from Low German.


No, both Grimm's and Verner's law apply to Proto-Germanic.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> No, they are not cognate. _Auz*and*il _contains the same root as the English_ verb *wand*er. _Greek_ ἑωσφόρος _contains the verb _φόρο = bear, bring, carry_. The Germanic word means something like _dawnwanderer_ and the Greek word means something like _dawnbringer_. The meanings are related but not the words.


So only the first part Eos and Auz are cognates? or are they not either? Cause I know there is Austri in Norse, and Eastre in Old English, relating to Easter and East. Along with Ostara, and Austron. With Ostarmanoth being April/Easter.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> No, both Grimm's and Verner's law apply to Proto-Germanic.


Human Deities - ForgottenMUD            When I noticed what I thought was a similarity between Wodanaz and Ouranos, I googled it and found this page. With no explanation though between the link. It lead me to try to understand if there was a phonetic relation between Ouranos and Wodanaz. This led me to compare Eosphorus and Aurvandil.

*Waranos*​God of the night sky, death and wisdom.
Wikipedia
Symbol: wheel cross
Major spheres: Darkness, Death
Minor spheres: Knowledge, Trickery
Weapon restriction: shortspear

Greek: Ouranos
Norse: Wodanaz, Wotan, Odin
Slavic: Veles
Lithuanian: Velnias
Persian: Varena
Vedic: Waruna, Varuna


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> So only the first part Eos and Auz are cognates?


Probably yes. And both are probably cognate to Latin _aurora_. Latin also features z-rhotacisation, similar but unrelated to the much later West and North Germanic z-rhotacisation


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> Probably yes. And both are probably cognate to Latin _aurora_. Latin also features z-rhotacisation, similar but unrelated to the much later West and North Germanic z-rhotacisation


They don't think that the Germans were influenced by the Romans? Given that Elder Futhark is from either Roman or Etruscan letters. There seems to be little talk about Greco-Roman influence on Germanic myths and language, at least not much I can find.


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> They don't think that the Germans were influenced by the Romans?


No, z-rhotacisation is not so uncommon in languages with apical s and z, as they existed in both Latin and in earlier Germanic languages. The Manarin r as in 人 /ren/ (sound samples) gives us a rough idea how a transitional sound like the old Norse R must have sounded.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> No, z-rhotacisation is not so uncommon in languages with apical s and z, as they existed in both Latin and in earlier Germanic languages. The Manarin r as in 人 /ren/ (sound samples) gives us a rough idea how a transitional sound like the old Norse R must have sounded.


With German being attested pretty late in respects to Latin and Greek, how can they be sure? Specially with their interactions, like serving in the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. Is there a specific process that explains this?


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> With German being attested pretty late in respects to Latin and Greek, how can they be sure? Specially with their interactions, like serving in the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. Is there a specific process that explains this?


There is simply too much time between the shifts. The Italic z-rhotacisation was already complete in Latin. In North and West Germanic the process must have started only after East Germanic split from common Germanic as Gothic has no trace of it.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> There is simply too much time between the shifts. The Italic z-rhotacisation was already complete in Latin. In North and West Germanic the process must have started only after East Germanic split from common Germanic as Gothic has no trace of it.


Gothic wasn't the only ones to interact with Rome though. The Lombards were west Germanic and attested by Strabo 20ad


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> Gothic wasn't the only ones to interact with Rome though. The Lombards were west Germanic and attested by Strabo 20ad


That has nothing to do with anything. I said the North and West Germanic z-rhotacisation can't have started before East Germanic split from Common Germanic, i.e. it cannot have *started* before 100 AD. The Italic z-rhotacisation was already *complete* in Latin, i.e. must have been *completed* at least 600 or 700 years earlier.


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> There is simply too much time between the shifts. The Italic z-rhotacisation was already complete in Latin. In North and West Germanic the process must have started only after East Germanic split from common Germanic as Gothic has no trace of it.


Also, If im not mistaken, Odin isn't mentioned in Norse, just the Verb orð. Plus the worship of Odin isn't attested during Roman times, though possible. They just mention them worshipping Mercury, or in Julius Caesar's case, claims they worshipped no god save for Sun, Moon, and Fire. With no worship of him before Rome, I just don't fully understand how they can't be related. Specially with Tyr, Austri, and Aurvandil being related to Zeus, Eos, and Eosphorus (Even if just in meaning and not cognates). Why is Odin not linked too to some Greco-Roman god?


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## Thealaskansandman

berndf said:


> That has nothing to do with anything. I said the North and West Germanic z-rhotacisation can't have started before East Germanic split from Common Germanic, i.e. it cannot have *started* before 100 AD. The Italic z-rhotacisation was already *complete* in Latin, i.e. must have been *completed* at least 600 or 700 years earlier.


Wouldn't it need to be complete in Latin to influence German? Or do they need to develop it at the same time as each other?


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## berndf

Thealaskansandman said:


> Wouldn't it need to be complete in Latin to influence German? Or do they need to develop it at the same time as each other?


If a shift is completed than it cannot influence anything any more.


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## jimquq

I think that you have misunderstood how languages influence each other. It is fairly clear that there is some common source to some Indo European myths, although it will always be difficult to distinguish between themes and characters which have a common origin (cognate), and those which are the result of cultural diffusion.

At first glance, a connection of some sort between Ouranos and Woden might be plausible, but each word needs to be reconstructed separate according to the understanding of experts about the evolution of the language concerned, then the reconstructed forms can be compared for further consideration.

Considering unattested, or barely attested languages, there will always be an element of doubt.

Good luck with your further investigations, do let us know what you uncover.


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## Thealaskansandman

jimquq said:


> I think that you have misunderstood how languages influence each other. It is fairly clear that there is some common source to some Indo European myths, although it will always be difficult to distinguish between themes and characters which have a common origin (cognate), and those which are the result of cultural diffusion.
> 
> At first glance, a connection of some sort between Ouranos and Woden might be plausible, but each word needs to be reconstructed separate according to the understanding of experts about the evolution of the language concerned, then the reconstructed forms can be compared for further consideration.
> 
> Considering unattested, or barely attested languages, there will always be an element of doubt.
> 
> Good luck with your further investigations, do let us know what you uncover.


Its safe to say I have NO understanding of how they influence each other, but am greatly interested in the subject and do very much want to learn. I have many questions, largely pertaining to mythological things, places and people so I do know they are dealing time frame with no attestation, but I love the process of how they still piece things together. Etymology, archeology, etc. 
I realize there may be some room, if even just a tiny, for some debate around Odin, even if Im a little off. That being said, I could think of no better place to ask these type of questions as normal "Myth" forums don't attract a lot of Linguist always. 
And I don't doubt what BerndF say's, I just want to understand it. I def don't want to be biased and try to force the facts to fit just because I thought I noticed something and was set on proving it, right or wrong. 

Somethings about Odin and Ouranos, even by name association seem to my mind to have a possible relation (Though again, could def be wrong). Like Odin's name being connected to Fury, Frenzy, Possessed, Raging, etc. And Ouranos meaning to Rain, or Lord of Rain. Seem like they are both possibly referring to a Storm God. Which if related to Ouranos and Caelus, would make him the Storming Night Sky. Which, 1, Explains Thor as his son as the God of Thunder, and 2, Baldur and Tyr, the Sun and Sky God. This symmetry would be nice obviously, but doesn't mean its real. This is why though I brought up Eos, Eosphorus, and Ouranos. Though the comment was deleted, I brought up Alban, Alb, Alf, Aelf, Elf and its ties to Semitic Alban, the plural of Laban. Now this isn't the only tie that goes beyond Rome and Greece even though, as Ba'al is linked to Belos/Belus in Greek, and Ive seen linked else where to Baldr from the term Ba'al Adir. Now, in Phoenician they had Ba'al Hadad, Yam and Mott which were compared to Zeus, Poseidon and Hades with similarities in Odin, Villi, and Ve. The Triplet pair being responsible for overthrowing the previous gods. Each group also went to war possibly with the Morning Star (Greek myth a lil less clear, but Aphrodite does appear as Venus the Morning Star. Either dethroning Eosphorus over to Rigel. Or Eosphorus was always Rigel. Given his links to Jesus and Lucifer, I personally understand him to have been cast down from his initial position. Aurvandil was a Vanir who would have been against the Aesir, Eosphorus a Titan against the Olympians and Attar was against Ba'al, Yam and Mott. So thematically there appear to be ties, if not always etymologically. Which is why I can totally understand why Odin may not be tied linguistically to Ouranos, but may still be related by theme, or not even by theme. 

Unfortunately this is a rather large and broad subject I feel. To support a link between Odin and the gods of the Mediterranean, is best in my mind, supported with alternate evidence of influence. 

I am def one of those people that suspect the ancients of having more communication and interaction with each other than typically spoken about or believed. You have the Celts becoming Galatians, Norsemen fighting in the Varangian guard, Phoenicians, Greeks, and Romans sailing to England like the Island of Ictis/ Belerion for Tin to make Bronze.


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## jimquq

People moved around and tried to make sense of the stories they encountered by fitting them into their own inherited myths, there's not much doubt about that. And in this way, different mythologies could eventually influence one another.

I think the Varangian guard is too late to have been part of this mythmaking process; I also think that searching for links to Semitic cultures is going to be difficult (and beyond the scope of this forum) as it is clear that both Semitic and Indo-European mythologies must have existed independently for thousands of years before written records or, probably, before substantial contact between PIE speakers and early Semites.


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## Thealaskansandman

jimquq said:


> People moved around and tried to make sense of the stories they encountered by fitting them into their own inherited myths, there's not much doubt about that. And in this way, different mythologies could eventually influence one another.
> 
> I think the Varangian guard is too late to have been part of this mythmaking process; I also think that searching for links to Semitic cultures is going to be difficult (and beyond the scope of this forum) as it is clear that both Semitic and Indo-European mythologies must have existed independently for thousands of years before written records or, probably, before substantial contact between PIE speakers and early Semites.


I am aware that they are considered separate, but have also seen the Proto-Indo European people linked to by the Black Sea. Which possibly formed 6-5000Bc when the Mediterranean broke past the mountains and flooded the lands. With both Indo-European myths and Semitic myths mentioning a great flood. I think there is room for a theory of a common ancestor between the two groups. Though I may be of a minority. It is definitely something I wonder about and don't see a clear reason for there not to be one. I look forward to learning more though either direction it goes.


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## Thealaskansandman

jimquq said:


> People moved around and tried to make sense of the stories they encountered by fitting them into their own inherited myths, there's not much doubt about that. And in this way, different mythologies could eventually influence one another.
> 
> I think the Varangian guard is too late to have been part of this mythmaking process; I also think that searching for links to Semitic cultures is going to be difficult (and beyond the scope of this forum) as it is clear that both Semitic and Indo-European mythologies must have existed independently for thousands of years before written records or, probably, before substantial contact between PIE speakers and early Semites.


Also, even with out a direct tie or relation between the two cultures, the Phoenicians were great sailors who explored as far as Britain. So even loan words, and loan myths I think have a slight chance still. Again, I could be wrong. The Alban kingdom of Scotland and Italy def seems to share a word relation with Semitic Alban, the plural of Laban. The Phoenicians are known to have given their letters to many people too.


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