# Sleeping Beauty



## Jubinell

So it's "la beauté au bois endormie" right?
(Please excuse me if it's not!)

I have two professors that fight each other over that sentence. One says that when you "say" such a sentence, it can mean either the sleeping beauty in the wood or the beauty in the sleeping wood.
The other, of course, says no.

So who's correct, as far as grammars go?


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## quehuong

Jubinell,

If we compare it to English syntax, then *la beauté au bois endormie* is an ambiguous sentence.  But, then, I don't know enough French syntax yet...


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## pen

It makes more sense, and it looks grammatical  correct "The sleeping beauty in the woods."


Correct me if I am mistaken.

Pen


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## OlivierG

pen said:
			
		

> It makes more sense, and it looks grammatical  correct "The sleeping beauty in the woods."
> 
> Correct me if I am mistaken.


"sleeping beauty" means litteraly "la beauté endormie". But the title of the tale is "La belle au bois dormant".


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## valerie

quehuong said:
			
		

> Jubinell,
> 
> If we compare it to English syntax, then *la beauté au bois endormie* is an ambiguous sentence.  But, then, I don't know enough French syntax yet...




The story of sleeping beauty is known in french as "La belle au bois dormant".

Nevertheless, I wanted to note that your proposal *la beauté au bois endormie* is not ambiguous, at least in written form, because of the "e" at the end of "endormie": this is feminine form, so it necesary refers to "la beauté" (NF) and not to "le bois" (NM)


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## Jubinell

oh yes it's dormant and not endormie sorry for my memory failing me

cuz when I post this i was like, wait a minute, endormie is gender-ous, are these professors stupid??
that's why I put "say" in quotation marks, implying pronounce lol

anyways, who's right, now that we have the final certainty out of the way?


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## aurayfrance

Jubinell said:
			
		

> oh yes it's dormant and not endormie sorry for my memory failing me
> 
> cuz when I post this i was like, wait a minute, endormie is gender-ous, are these professors stupid??
> that's why I put "say" in quotation marks, implying pronounce lol
> 
> anyways, who's right, now that we have the final certainty out of the way?



I think your second professor is the only one to be right. "dormant" is an adjective, so it has to agree in number and gender with the noun it refers to. If it were "la belle" who sleeps, it would be "dormante" with a "e" at the end. So, "dormant" refers necesarily to "le bois". You understand that clearly if you re-read the tale "La Belle au bois dormant" by Charles Perrault (1628-1703):

http://www.alalettre.com/perrault-boisdormant.htm

It was not only the "Belle" but the whole place, the servants, the castle and the forest that protected them that were "dormant". But if you ask a French, even I before I studied the text, I'm sure 99,9% think "dormant" refers to the "Belle" because it's the main point of the tale.


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## Jubinell

Of course I know the story, and it doesn't matter who's main and who's not. All I am saying is that language is so beautiful that it might give us extra meanings (which is the subject of this threat in the case of sleeping beauty)

A little alternative here,

you said dormant is an adjective. Can it in any way be treated like "en dormant"? So like if you have "belle au bois en dormant" would that wash away the certainty?

Would using dormant instead of endormie/endormant imply a sense of time?

I'm merely trying to experiment with the wordings here.


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## aurayfrance

Jubinell said:
			
		

> Of course I know the story, and it doesn't matter who's main and who's not. All I am saying is that language is so beautiful that it might give us extra meanings (which is the subject of this threat in the case of sleeping beauty)
> 
> A little alternative here,
> 
> you said dormant is an adjective. Can it in any way be treated like "en dormant"? So like if you have "belle au bois en dormant" would that wash away the certainty?
> 
> Would using dormant instead of endormie/endormant imply a sense of time?
> 
> I'm merely trying to experiment with the wordings here.



I'm not an authority in linguistic but I think I understand your point. Languages evolve all the time and you can invent new shades of meaning to words... But it works in the opposite direction of time, too. You must remember that Charles Perrault lived in the 17th century and French has evolved since then... "dormant" was probably more common than nowadays at the time. We say "les eaux dormantes", it's very poetic.
Of course, you can experiment but you have to know perfectly the language. If you intend to to wash away the sense of certainty, you'd probably better say: "La Belle au bois, dormante" (with a coma, it changes everything).
Don't confuse "en dormant" (while sleeping) with "endormant" (boring).


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## quehuong

valerie said:
			
		

> The story of sleeping beauty is known in french as "La belle au bois dormant".
> 
> Nevertheless, I wanted to note that your proposal *la beauté au bois endormie* is not ambiguous, at least in written form, because of the "e" at the end of "endormie": this is feminine form, so it necesary refers to "la beauté" (NF) and not to "le bois" (NM)



Thanks, Valerie.  I totally forgot that endormie is feminine.  I was thinking of English.  English used to have grammatical gender, but it has evolved, so now we must suffer as we learn French.

Isn't there a difference in *dormant(e) and endormi(e)*?


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## OlivierG

quehuong said:
			
		

> Isn't there a difference in *dormant(e) and endormi(e)*?


Not much. I think it is the same difference as between sleeping and asleep.

BTW I think aurayfrance is wrong: "La belle au bois dormant" is an old way of writing. At this time, the location was often written before the verb (e.g. La Fontaine : "un lièvre en son gîte songeait")
So, IMO, "dormant" is not an adjective. It is the "participe présent" of the verb "dormir".
The forest is not sleeping, the beauty is.

In modern French, it could be written : 
"La belle dormant au bois" or "La belle dormant dans le bois" or "La belle qui dort dans le bois" (The beauty sleeping in the forest).


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## Jubinell

well ladies and gentlemen, we're finally getting somewhere

OliverG: 

So, IMO, "dormant" is not an adjective. It is the "participe présent" of the verb "dormir".

----
That's exactly what I need to know. We have words like "intéressant" which takes the adjective form, and in this case "dormant" that takes the gérondif (a different word for ppré?) form. I think that's a better intepretation too because there's a sense of "a long time" in the -ant form.


Doesn't endormir has a sense of "putting to sleep"/"fall asleep" whereas dormir does not?

-----
"The forest is not sleeping, the beauty is."
-How do you know that?


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## OlivierG

Jubinell said:
			
		

> Doesn't endormir has a sense of "putting to sleep"/"fall asleep" whereas dormir does not?


Right. For example :
"Je me suis endormi devant la télévision"
"Je chante une berceuse au bébé pour l'endormir".

But it also the only usual adjective for the state of somebody sleeping. "Dormant" is deprecated in modern language,
"Il ne faut pas réveiller un somnambule endormi"
"J'étais endormi quand on a frappé à la porte".
even if we prefer in such case using:
"Il ne faut pas réveiller un somnambule qui dort"
"Je dormais quand on a frappé à la porte".



> -----
> "The forest is not sleeping, the beauty is."
> -How do you know that?


Because my mother told me this tale when I was younger


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## Jubinell

mdrrrr

Sorry for the confusion, I mean to say "how to you know that from the sentence" cuz that's why I started this discussion, cuz I'm uncertain as to whether the sentence has a double meaning,

thanks nevertheless,


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## OlivierG

Jubinell said:
			
		

> mdrrrr
> Sorry for the confusion, I mean to say "how to you know that from the sentence" cuz that's why I started this discussion, cuz I'm uncertain as to whether the sentence has a double meaning,
> thanks nevertheless,


To be honest, I never thought about the meaning of the tale's title before you ask this question, and I am not 100% sure about my explanation (only 90%).
None of the two possible meanings would be written like this in modern French anyway.
The aurayfrance's would be written "La belle dans le bois qui dort"
Mine would be written "La belle qui dort dans le bois"
But the way of writing the location before the verb being usual in old written French, I incline to choose the latter.

For example, if you want to give a sentence a poetical and old-fashioned taste, never write the words in their usual order.
Instead of writing: "mon amie se promenait sur la place"
write instead: "mon amie sur la place se promenait"
or "sur la place mon amie se promenait".
But do not misuse it, or it will sound like Yoda in Star Wars (at least in the French version) : "La force maîtriser tu dois, jeune Skywalker"


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## quehuong

Tous,

I wonder when and where Sleeping Beauty was originally created.

Perhaps, endormi and dormant were more distinct from each other many many many years ago?  I like endormi more than dormant in this case.  It creates more images than dormant.  No??


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## OlivierG

quehuong said:
			
		

> Tous,
> I wonder when and where Sleeping Beauty was originally created.


It has been created by Charles Perrault, in "Contes de ma mère l'Oye", in 1697.


> Perhaps, endormi and dormant were more distinct from each other many many many years ago?  I like endormi more than dormant in this case.  It creates more images than dormant.  No??


Intuitively, as an adjective, "endormi" has a more "transitory" meaning than "dormant". "Endormi" infers the "belle" could wake up soon, while "dormant" is the state of somebody sleeping, that's all.
It is still used :
- for spies: an "agent dormant" is a spy who have a normal activity until he is awaken for a mission
- For stagnant water: "les eaux dormantes".


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## quehuong

Olivier,

I'll keep these in mind. 

==================

Permit me to correct something...I hope you wouldn't mind.



> It has been created by Charles Perrault, in "Contes de ma mère l'Oye", in 1697.



It was created NOT It has been created.  Simple past should be used here.


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## aurayfrance

OlivierG said:
			
		

> Right. For example :
> "Je me suis endormi devant la télévision"
> "Je chante une berceuse au bébé pour l'endormir".
> 
> But it also the only usual adjective for the state of somebody sleeping. "Dormant" is deprecated in modern language,
> "Il ne faut pas réveiller un somnambule endormi"
> "J'étais endormi quand on a frappé à la porte".
> even if we prefer in such case using:
> "Il ne faut pas réveiller un somnambule qui dort"
> "Je dormais quand on a frappé à la porte".
> 
> 
> Because my mother told me this tale when I was younger



I'm perfectly aware that my explanation is iconoclast...    But, as you notice it, your mother told you this tale when you were younger, probably very young... So I doubt you were able to get the shades of a tale written in the 17th century at that time. Either did I! So, you may be right or you may be wrong. "Dormant" may be either an adjective or a "participe present". But "le bois dormant" makes sense if you compare it with "les eaux dormantes", it suggest a place asleep since a very long time, a different way to understand the title of this tale...


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## Jubinell

so you're saying "dormant" HAS TO BE referring to "au bois"?? But we all know that, from the story at least, the center of such a slumber is la belle.

I agree with you up to "dormant" implying a long long sleep (and not waking up), which, even in my opinion, fits better with "au bois." But to conclusively and exclusively say so, I think, is going a bit overboard.

Which then, for me, rules out the possibly of "dormant" being an adjective with gender.


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## aurayfrance

Jubinell said:
			
		

> so you're saying "dormant" HAS TO BE referring to "au bois"?? But we all know that, from the story at least, the center of such a slumber is la belle.
> 
> I agree with you up to "dormant" implying a long long sleep (and not waking up), which, even in my opinion, fits better with "au bois." But to conclusively and exclusively say so, I think, is going a bit overboard.
> 
> Which then, for me, rules out the possibly of "dormant" being an adjective with gender.



To come back to your initial question, your second professor is right to think that both interpretations are possible:

1)La belle au bois dormant = la belle dormant dans le bois = la belle en train de dormir dans le bois.

2)La Belle au bois dormant = la Belle dans le bois dormant = la Belle dans le bois assoupi.

Everyone of us can have its own opinion about the meaning but there is no grammatical rule, I think, that allows to exclude one  of these interpretations.


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## OlivierG

aurayfrance said:
			
		

> To come back to your initial question, your second professor is right to think that both interpretations are possible:
> 
> 1)La belle au bois dormant = la belle dormant dans le bois = la belle en train de dormir dans le bois.
> 
> 2)La Belle au bois dormant = la Belle dans le bois dormant = la Belle dans le bois assoupi.
> 
> Everyone of us can have its own opinion about the meaning but there is no grammatical rule, I think, that allows to exclude one  of these interpretations.


I do agree. Both are grammatically correct, and there is no way to be sure about the real meaning. I will try to find the tale and read it in order to find an evidence in the original text.


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## aurayfrance

I have found a text that seems to correspond to my explanation:

http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...exte+qui+exploite+le+conte+de+Perrault"&hl=fr

I have read it quickly but it seems "la Belle" sleeps because she lives in "le bois dormant", that is a place cut of the reality...


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## OlivierG

aurayfrance said:
			
		

> I have found a text that seems to correspond to my explanation:
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...exte+qui+exploite+le+conte+de+Perrault"&hl=fr
> 
> I have read it quickly but it seems "la Belle" sleeps because she lives in "le bois dormant", that is a place cut of the reality...



I have found the tale at:

http://www.alalettre.com/perrault-boisdormant.htm

and it seems the forest around the castle is not sleeping: it protects actively the castle and opens when the prince tries to enter. The beauty is sleeping, as well as the people in the castle (so we could speak about "le château dormant"), so I am still confused. 
Please could Charles Perrault, if he read this forum, clarify it once and for all?


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## aurayfrance

OlivierG said:
			
		

> I have found the tale at:
> 
> http://www.alalettre.com/perrault-boisdormant.htm
> 
> and it seems the forest around the castle is not sleeping: it protects actively the castle and opens when the prince tries to enter. The beauty is sleeping, as well as the people in the castle (so we could speak about "le château dormant"), so I am still confused.
> Please could Charles Perrault, if he read this forum, clarify it once and for all?



What Charles Perrault meant doesn't matter that much after all. Grammatically speaking, both interpretations are possible. Probably 99,9% of the French would agree with you. But the link I've given proves that some people have started exploring the other possibility. It's fascinating as it demonstrates that a language is not "dormant", it heads permanently to new meanings we had never thought about.


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## Lance B.

How right you are, Aurayfrance.  A coma does change everything; she might never wake up


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## aurayfrance

Lance B. said:
			
		

> How right you are, Aurayfrance.  A coma does change everything; she might never wake up



You are perfectly right, she might never wake up if a Charming Prince (is it the right phrase in English?) didn't enter the sleeping wood...  

To convince you if necessary, here is the conclusion of the tale:

Attendre quelque temps pour avoir un Epoux,
Riche, bien fait, galant et doux,
La chose est assez naturelle,
Mais l'attendre cent ans, et toujours en dormant,
On ne trouve plus de femelle,
Qui dormit si tranquillement.
La Fable semble encor vouloir nous faire entendre
Que souvent de l'Hymen les agréables noeuds, 
Pour être différés, n'en sont pas moins heureux, 
Et qu'on ne perd rien pour attendre;
Mais le sexe avec tant d'ardeur, 
Aspire à la foi conjugale,
Que je n'ai pas la force ni le coeur,
De lui prêcher cette morale.


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## Olivia

You might find it interesting to see how the title " La Belle au bois dormant" has been translated into other languages.... "La Bella durmiente del bosque" in Spanish, "Sleeping Beauty" in English.... All opted for the version "the beautiful princess herself is sleeping in the woods"... 

Well, it is only an indication, though. After all, I study languages so that I don't have to read translations and can go to the original text and get all the nuances that can't be transposed into another language, and there are plenty of them in "La belle au bois dormant".

 Whether it is the wood or the beauty sleeping, it's no innocent sleep... the princess, the castle, all her servants and the woods are ... asleep... but the princess still has the fresh colours of life on her cheeks... she might wake up any minute... it is a very lively sleep in fact, if I may say... the beauty and her whole universe are asleep, but they are only asleep to give the destiny of the beauty a chance.... They are just waiting for the arrival of the prince.... 

The woods are as asleep as the princess, their function is to remain asleep until the prince comes... yes, they actively protect the castle and actively open to let the prince pass... because that is all part of the charm that was cast upon them... and all that "dormant state" ends when the prince enters the territory ... just as the wood open to let him pass, the princess wakes up when he comes close to her. 

You might wonder for ever whether it is the "beauty sleeping in the wood" or the "beauty in the sleeping wood".... I believe it is part of the charm of the title... The wood and the beauty are as many layers of femininity. The particular charm cast upon the princess suggests that the wood, too, must be asleep. Her sleeping implies that everything around her must sleep, too... after all, she is the beauty, the princess, the central character and she is waiting for the right time to wake up... so everything else has to sleep, too, nothing can go on without her... how are a castle and all its people to go on living without the princess?  

So... yes, "La belle au bois dormant" might be first and foremost about a beauty sleeping in a wood.... (grammatically speaking, etc. see debate above)but don't forget that the tale is about how a whole destiny, a whole life, everything around the princess, that is put on hold... this sleep IS contagious, infectious,  so, in meaning,  it is a beauty sleeping in a wood that is also in that state of enchanted sleep , waiting for the arrival of the prince....

Well... this got rather long and lyrical... I guess you all fell asleep, too by now... but I'll post this anyway...


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## jean1938

OlivierG said:
			
		

> I have found the tale at:
> 
> http://www.alalettre.com/perrault-boisdormant.htm
> 
> and it seems the forest around the castle is not sleeping: it protects actively the castle and opens when the prince tries to enter. The beauty is sleeping, as well as the people in the castle (so we could speak about "le château dormant"), so I am still confused.
> Please could Charles Perrault, if he read this forum, clarify it once and for all?


Hélas! Perreault ne suis !!  

J'ai toujours cru que c'était la Belle qui dormait et non le bois.
Et qu'il s'agissait d'une "inversion" La Belle, au bois, dormant = La belle dormant au (dans un) bois.

Il est intéressant de noter que la traduction anglaise est:
The Sleeping Beauty, et non The Sleeping Wood Beauty!
Ou The Beauty in the Sleeping Wood.

Je serais curieux se connaître le titre traduit dans d'autres langues...

Oups!  J'ai oublié... Peut-être devais-je écrire en anglais???


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## OlivierG

jean1938 said:
			
		

> Je serais curieux se connaître le titre traduit dans d'autres langues...



Olivia above in this thread the Spanish translation has given 
"La Bella durmiente del bosque"

I have found this in Italian:
"Bella Addormentata nel bosco"

in German:
"Die schlafende Schöne im Walde"

Note : in English, I also found:
"The Sleeping Beauty in the Wood" !


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## jean1938

OlivierG said:
			
		

> Olivia above in this thread the Spanish translation has given
> "La Bella durmiente del bosque"
> 
> I have found this in Italian:
> "Bella Addormentata nel bosco"
> 
> in German:
> "Die schlafende Schöne im Walde"
> 
> Note : in English, I also found:
> "The Sleeping Beauty in the Wood" !


Je serai bref:  Merci!


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## aurayfrance

jean1938 said:
			
		

> Hélas! Perreault ne suis !!
> 
> J'ai toujours cru que c'était la Belle qui dormait et non le bois.
> Et qu'il s'agissait d'une "inversion" La Belle, au bois, dormant = La belle dormant au (dans un) bois.
> 
> Il est intéressant de noter que la traduction anglaise est:
> The Sleeping Beauty, et non The Sleeping Wood Beauty!
> Ou The Beauty in the Sleeping Wood.
> 
> Je serais curieux se connaître le titre traduit dans d'autres langues...
> 
> Oups!  J'ai oublié... Peut-être devais-je écrire en anglais???



Bonsoir Jean (21:46h heure d'Auray-France),

comme je suis un peu fatigué, je vais parler français aussi. Il est intéressant de voir comment réagissent les gens lorsque l'on bouscule leurs certitudes les mieux établies. Et qu'est-ce qui pourrait l'être davantage que la Belle dormant dans son bois?   
Et pourtant, il me semble de plus en plus évident que le langage de Perrault est codé. Il aborde le thème de la sexualité féminine, la conclusion du conte que j'ai reproduite plus haut en atteste. Au XVIIème siècle vous vous rendez compte!   
Inutile de dire qu'un tel sujet ne pouvait se concevoir que dans les liens sacrés du mariage, nous sommes à mille lieux du tabernacle qui fait scandale au Québec (j'avoue que le concept est vraiment féroce...). Mais enfin, j'ai cité mes sources qui attestent que le bois dormant existe Belle et bien:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...exte+qui+exploite+le+conte+de+Perrault"&hl=fr
Mais qu'est donc ce bois dormant sinon l'univers intime, à la fois mental et réel, de la personne qui ne pourra être réveillée que lorqu'il aura été pénétré? Nous sommes en plein dans la métaphore, comprendra qui voudra ou qui pourra... Comme dit Charles Perrault "On ne trouve plus de femelle, qui dormit si tranquillement." Si vous voulez mon avis, l'auteur aurait mérité d'être brûlé en place publique comme les sorciers du Moyen-Age. Malgré toutes ses précautions qui ont bercé nos certitudes d'enfants, voyez quel usage les hérétiques tentent de faire de son oeuvre...


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## aurayfrance

Olivia said:
			
		

> You might find it interesting to see how the title " La Belle au bois dormant" has been translated into other languages.... "La Bella durmiente del bosque" in Spanish, "Sleeping Beauty" in English.... All opted for the version "the beautiful princess herself is sleeping in the woods"...
> 
> Well, it is only an indication, though. After all, I study languages so that I don't have to read translations and can go to the original text and get all the nuances that can't be transposed into another language, and there are plenty of them in "La belle au bois dormant".
> 
> Whether it is the wood or the beauty sleeping, it's no innocent sleep... the princess, the castle, all her servants and the woods are ... asleep... but the princess still has the fresh colours of life on her cheeks... she might wake up any minute... it is a very lively sleep in fact, if I may say... the beauty and her whole universe are asleep, but they are only asleep to give the destiny of the beauty a chance.... They are just waiting for the arrival of the prince....
> 
> The woods are as asleep as the princess, their function is to remain asleep until the prince comes... yes, they actively protect the castle and actively open to let the prince pass... because that is all part of the charm that was cast upon them... and all that "dormant state" ends when the prince enters the territory ... just as the wood open to let him pass, the princess wakes up when he comes close to her.
> 
> You might wonder for ever whether it is the "beauty sleeping in the wood" or the "beauty in the sleeping wood".... I believe it is part of the charm of the title... The wood and the beauty are as many layers of femininity. The particular charm cast upon the princess suggests that the wood, too, must be asleep. Her sleeping implies that everything around her must sleep, too... after all, she is the beauty, the princess, the central character and she is waiting for the right time to wake up... so everything else has to sleep, too, nothing can go on without her... how are a castle and all its people to go on living without the princess?
> 
> So... yes, "La belle au bois dormant" might be first and foremost about a beauty sleeping in a wood.... (grammatically speaking, etc. see debate above)but don't forget that the tale is about how a whole destiny, a whole life, everything around the princess, that is put on hold... this sleep IS contagious, infectious,  so, in meaning,  it is a beauty sleeping in a wood that is also in that state of enchanted sleep , waiting for the arrival of the prince....
> 
> Well... this got rather long and lyrical... I guess you all fell asleep, too by now... but I'll post this anyway...



Olivia, I have something very cruel to perform, like parents when they tell their infants that Santa Claus doesn't exist... I'm sorry of that but I think "La Belle au bois dormant" is definitely not a tale for children!   

It's about women, sexuality and marriage. This is confirmed by the conclusion, I repeat it:

"Attendre quelque temps pour avoir un Epoux,
Riche, bien fait, galant et doux,
La chose est assez naturelle,
Mais l'attendre cent ans, et toujours en dormant,
On ne trouve plus de femelle,
Qui dormit si tranquillement.
La Fable semble encor vouloir nous faire entendre
Que souvent de l'Hymen les agréables noeuds, 
Pour être différés, n'en sont pas moins heureux, 
Et qu'on ne perd rien pour attendre;
Mais le sexe avec tant d'ardeur, 
Aspire à la foi conjugale,
Que je n'ai pas la force ni le coeur,
De lui prêcher cette morale."

"Le sexe (women in the 17th century language) avec tant d'ardeur aspire à la foi conjugale", do I need to draw a picture for you?... So, sorry if I break the heart of some people here but this tale has what we, the French, call "un double sens": the tale for children and what's behind it, which was impossible to express more directly at the time. So, the whole text is ambiguous, ambivalent and the title is a digest of that. You and I don't speak about the same story, that's all.


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## Dothy

Thanks very much, guys, for this discussion   . I had never really thought of this famous tale in these terms, but that is so interesting! Olivia and Aurayfrance, I really enjoyed your interpretations. The latters + your quotation made me want to read again the tale, but this time "dans le texte"! It brings so many more "pistes de lecture" than the "édulcorée" version (sorry   , I don't know how to translate that in english) of my childhood, which I really appreciated at the time, though.

However, I've got a question. Is Aurore (?) the princess asleep when the prince has intercourse with her   ? 
I think I remember my mum telling me so after she read Bruno BETTELHEIM's "Psychanalyse des contes de fées". 
It may be a bit off-board, though   

Cheers,
D.


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## aurayfrance

Dothy said:
			
		

> Thanks very much, guys, for this discussion. I had never really thought of this famous tale in these terms, but that is so interesting! Olivia and Aurayfrance, I really enjoyed your interpretations. The latters + your quotation made me want to read again the tale, but this time "dans le texte"! It brings so many more "pistes de lecture" than the "édulcorée" version (sorry, I don't know how to translate that in english) of my childhood, which I really appreciated at the time, though.
> 
> However, I've got a question. Is Aurore (?) the princess asleep when the prince has intercourse with her   ?
> I think I remember my mum telling me so after she read Bruno BETTELHEIM's "Psychanalyse des contes de fées".
> It may be a bit off-board, though
> 
> Cheers,
> D.



Dear Dothy,

you come close to the essential point of the tale...  
You will understand that my sense of decency forbids me to answer your question but you have to understand that the Prince enters the sleeping wood and that that is precisely the reason why the Princess woke up. We argue about it since the post started!   From this simple fact, I can't prevent you from deducting whatever you like...


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## pen

jean1938 said:
			
		

> Hélas! Perreault ne suis !!
> 
> J'ai toujours cru que c'était la Belle qui dormait et non le bois.
> Et qu'il s'agissait d'une "inversion" La Belle, au bois, dormant = La belle dormant au (dans un) bois.
> 
> Il est intéressant de noter que la traduction anglaise est:
> The Sleeping Beauty, et non The Sleeping Wood Beauty!
> Ou The Beauty in the Sleeping Wood.
> 
> Je serais curieux se connaître le titre traduit dans d'autres langues...
> 
> Oups!  J'ai oublié... Peut-être devais-je écrire en anglais???


I cmpletetly agree with you I never heard that the translation in spanish mentioned woods "La bella durmiente" and that is it.
Pen


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## OlivierG

pen said:
			
		

> I cmpletetly agree with you I never heard that the translation in spanish mentioned woods "La bella durmiente" and that is it.
> Pen


Just perform a search for "La Bella durmiente del bosque" using Google...


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## Olivia

aurayfrance said:
			
		

> Olivia, I have something very cruel to perform, like parents when they tell their infants that Santa Claus doesn't exist... I'm sorry of that but I think "La Belle au bois dormant" is definitely not a tale for children!
> 
> It's about women, sexuality and marriage. This is confirmed by the conclusion, I repeat it:
> 
> "Attendre quelque temps pour avoir un Epoux,
> Riche, bien fait, galant et doux,
> La chose est assez naturelle,
> Mais l'attendre cent ans, et toujours en dormant,
> On ne trouve plus de femelle,
> Qui dormit si tranquillement.
> La Fable semble encor vouloir nous faire entendre
> Que souvent de l'Hymen les agréables noeuds,
> Pour être différés, n'en sont pas moins heureux,
> Et qu'on ne perd rien pour attendre;
> Mais le sexe avec tant d'ardeur,
> Aspire à la foi conjugale,
> Que je n'ai pas la force ni le coeur,
> De lui prêcher cette morale."
> 
> "Le sexe (women in the 17th century language) avec tant d'ardeur aspire à la foi conjugale", do I need to draw a picture for you?... So, sorry if I break the heart of some people here but this tale has what we, the French, call "un double sens": the tale for children and what's behind it, which was impossible to express more directly at the time. So, the whole text is ambiguous, ambivalent and the title is a digest of that. You and I don't speak about the same story, that's all.





Bonjour Aurayfrance!  Vous pouvez m'écrire sans apologie!  

Well, actually, Aurayfrance, I totally coincide with you on that, I simply thought the end of the tale that you had thoughtfully included in a previous message was so obviously clarifying the symbolics that I didn't find it necessary to say it again and subtitle all the symbols... Most fairy tales are disguises and symbolic languages to introduce children  to (or entertain  adults with) topics that are very far from being innocent! That's their function! I thought that was obvious and since you had already pointed it out and taken care to provide interesting references, I didn't want to be redundant. 

Basically, I was just trying to stick to Jubinell's original question of whether it is the beauty sleeping in the wood or the beauty in the sleeping wood, and wanted to emphasise that not only the "beauty in the sleeping woods" version can't be totally excluded from a grammatical point of view, it also opens a perspective on the symbolic language of the tale - precisely, that the wood (call it a woman's sexual universe or awareness- or if you want to be more literal, it could be... how graphic do I need to be? wood, bush, figure it out!) is "sleeping" (=kept in a virgin or sexually inactive or not quite conscious state) as much as the "beauty"  or "princess" is( princess=1: the central, conscious part of a woman's sexual awareness and psyche 2:  maybe the socially acceptable part of a woman's sexuality - see the ironic questionning of marriage in the tale ). Note that it is the "sleeping wood" (a woman's receptiveness to sexual  pleasure - or whatever corresponding organ, for that matter, if you wish) that opens the way for the prince to penetrate it. Once the "wood", the whole intimate universe of the "sleeping beauty" has been penetrated, she awakens completely. 

Basically, in the symbolic language of the tale, the "wood" is also "sleeping", it is the first element in the gradual sexual awakening of the "beauty". The question of whether "dormant" refers to the "bois " or the "belle" is not only a grammatical question, it is an interesting question about how the symbolics work: the belle and the bois are parts of woman's intimate sexual universe and can't be dissociated that easily,  which is reflected in the title's grammatical ambiguity. 

Actually, maybe the word order "La belle au bois dormant" rather than "La Belle dormant au bois", was not only a matter of usage in 17th century French. Maybe the author chose that word order precisely to generate that ambiguity: when you hear the title "La belle au bois dormant", you hear "bois dormant" in the end, and even though you know "dormant" should most likely refer to the "belle", your ear hears "bois dormant" and it makes you wonder if there is, maybe, such a place, the "bois dormant" in the tale. It is a gorgeous literary trick, isn't it? You place "dormant" after "bois", even though "dormant" grammatically more likely refers to "belle" and thus "bois" and "dormant" become associated in the ear of the reader and evoke a new meaning. And yes, when you read the whole tale, there is a "bois dormant"! that famous "bois dormant" is actually an important symbol, maybe the most obvious one, the one to open the way to be penetrated by the prince, the first step onto the sexual awakening of the "beauty".


Now that I made my point about the "sleeping wood /sleeping beauty" question, to go back to the symbolic interpretation of the tale:

let's not be too literal and sex-obsessed and freudian, if I may suggest this without putting off 500 readers. Just joking. 

Yes, the belle au bois dormant is about the sexual awakening of a woman. But if it were just about symbolically describing intercourse , it would be very boring. What prompted the author to write such a tale? It is a critique of social hypocrisy, too and a handbook on how to handle female sexuality. There is the question of status and social respectability, too - note that it is a princess and not just a peasant girl-who cares about the social respectability of peasant girls, after all? 

Note that the royal family decides to put their daughter's life (sexuality) on hold just around the age when she "becomes a woman" .  Why? because their ennemy (only rich, powerful royal families have ennemies, peasants don't) the old bad fairy, cast a spell that the princess shall die aged 16 piercing her finger with a needle. The bad fairy = the annoying part of society that doesn't quite obey to rules of acceptable behaviour and that "proper" people try to hide away. Doesn't it sound absolutely scary that the princess should die just when she becomes a woman? Doesn't that needle symbol remind you of Eve eating the apple and thus loosing her innocence and being banned from paradise?  It is a tragedy! But the royal family and the good fairies are not so bad.... if the princess will just sleep for 100 years, she won't have to die when she becomes a woman. She just has to be patient... she will wake up when the time has come. (when a good marriage candidate comes along). 
Basically the alternatives presented to the young princess are rather unpleasant: either you die when you "become a woman" before you even get to enjoy it properly, or you behave and keep your sexuality asleep until a good marriage candidate comes. So, you either die or are artificially kept unconscious (the enchanted sleep) of your sexual needs until a good marriage candidate saves you. At least, the fairy gave the princess "pleasant dreams" (hmmm... erotic ones?) and plenty of time to think about all the fun she'll have once the prince comes along. 

Now... the prince penetrating the wood... the princess wakes up... well, are we supposed to understand that women become completely conscious beings only once they have been ...penetrated?  You could say that at that time, a woman doesn't completely fulfil her social role until she has been paired to a man.... you could also say that the trouble with this is that it takes a lot more time to find a good marriage partner suitable for a royal family than it takes for a girl to wake up to sexual desire. And royal families have ennemies (bad fairies) that will try to corrupt the girl (get her to touch a needle and die ).... And that's why royal families put their girl to sleep for a hundred years... so she'll have time to think and will be protected and will be prevented from fooling around and will then be able to fully enjoy sexual life with the appropriate partner... 

The conclusion is quite ironic... pointing out that you can't possibly expect girls to wait for so long for the appropriate husband... and everyone knows they don't! A scandalous comment at the time!

Well... that's it for today... I'll let aurayfrance elaborate on that.


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## quehuong

I would not have been able to see the finer points of the tale if I hadn't read your comments and analyses.  I think I ought to be keener from now on.


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## Palanda

I do not know a whole lot about French, (I really want to learn), but I recently did a report on the Origins of Sleeping Beauty. One of the original writers, Charles Perrault, wrote it as "La Belle au bois dormant." Although, I think it could be "La Bella au bois dormant" too. This is supposbly "The Sleeping Beauty in the Woods," but most of the time, the story is called "Sleeping Beauty" or perhaps "The Sleeping Beauty." I have aslo seen it, like another member mentioned, "The Sleeping Beauty in the Forest." Like I said, I don't know very much about French, and I don't know if it has changed since Perrault's time or not. And then there's Perrault's Cinderella...


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