# Italian Soccer crisis



## V52

The enormous crisis in Italian Soccer involves maybe something beyond.
I'd like to know the opinions from abroad.
Vittorio


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## tafanari

I don't think it's a crisis; More like a scandal. A crisis is what happens when you don't have a good championship or good players, or when your best players have to play abroad. Italian football doesn't have that problem. Look at the team that one the World Cup; they all play in Italian. I wish France or the US had a "crisis" like that.

I'm a huge Juventus fan. Such a huge fan that when I was repeatedly told that it was too much of a coincidence the calls seemed to go La Veccha Signora's way, I dismissed it as sour grapes. Now it seems that it's true. If they cheated, then Serie *C* was the right punishment but on the other hand I feel for the people who work for that organization and had no idea what was going on (I'm not talking about the players who make millions but the regular employees).

I think that this will be good for Serie A. For once in a long time it will be competitive and (not just Milan v. Juve) and we will see some interesting teams in the Champions League and Copa UEFA. I guess Serie A will be Inter v. Roma but I hope a small team surprises me. It will be nice to see Milan and Juve sell the Arsenal of talent that they have. They always buy the best players away from the other teams and that's something that ought to be looked at too.

Maybe some of those big stars who now play in Italy will go to Germany, Spain, and England. Maybe a small team will do well then, maybe new talents will be discovered.


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## V52

I agree with you Tafanari, but I feel that beyond there's more. It's a trend of thinking here in Italy : "The most important is winning, is to be a winner, not caring  how!"  I think that a lier like Moggi is sincere when he says : "I was only trying not to be damaged."  It means that  someone else was doing is best to cheat ... before!  And this man is the fatal name : Berlusconi! He started the philosophy of  "winners"  against every law, and so, the others  followed. That's what is beyond: the logic of  prevarication as a law!  
Vittorio


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## Etcetera

I'm a devoted Juventus fan, and I was so immensely glad when they won the Italian Championship! And now I feel very upset with all that.



> It's a trend of thinking here in Italy : "The most important is winning, is to be a winner, not caring  how!"


You know, Vittorio, when there was all that fuss about the Zidane-Materazzi affair, I was completely on Materazzi's side! Can't understand those who say Zidane was right. Hitting someone instead of answering with words means that you just don't know how to answer adequately!


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## V52

Dear Etcetera
May add something to your correct observations? Where are german judges? A guy on their territory, under their jurisdiction made a public and voluntary act of violence, that could risk to kill a person! How can they be so silent? Is a soccer camp a place where everything can be done? If violence of supporters must be punished, is the same for players! Don't you agree? 
Vittorio


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## Etcetera

I agree wholeheartedly! Rules must be the same for everyone.
On the other hand, we must admit that offensive words, too, aren't to be used in public places...


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## maxiogee

Is it any wonder that, with so much money at stake in what used to be a sport, but has now become an industry, there are those who seem to think that to win is more imporant than to _compete_?

Just how much is a football player actually _worth_?


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## LV4-26

maxiogee said:
			
		

> Is it any wonder that, with so much money at stake in what used to be a sport, but has now become an industry, there are those who seem to think that to win is more imporant than to _compete_?


 Perfectly true. Before the WC, some people here said that if France won the championship, the party in power had better chances to win in the next presidential election. 
France lost but they went as far as the final and Chirac very cleverly took advantage of the ultimate outcome (including the incident). So that at the end of the day, it's a beneficial operation for them.


			
				etcetera said:
			
		

> I was completely on Materazzi's side!


 I think they're both on the same side. The case is really [Materazzi + Zidane] vs [Good + Manners]


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## Etcetera

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> I think they're both on the same side. The case is really [Materazzi + Zidane] vs [Good + Manners]


Mwahahaha! You're a 100% right here!


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## V52

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Perfectly true. Before the WC, some people here said that if France won the championship, the party in power had better chances to win in the next presidential election.
> France lost but they went as far as the final and Chirac very cleverly took advantage of the ultimate outcome (including the incident). So that at the end of the day, it's a beneficial operation for them.
> I think they're both on the same side. The case is really [Materazzi + Zidane] vs [Good + Manners]


 
Materazzi is so well known in Italy for his behaviours , there were more episodes that involved him. 
I agree it is a Materazzi+Zidane case not a simple Zidane case or  a Materazzi case. And I suspect a previous bad feeling betweenh them. 
V


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## KaRiNe_Fr

This is also a judge referee crisis. If they can be bought to make a team win, the whole system is perverted.
About the Zidane case (only Zidane case for me as Materazzi was not responsible of any physical violence), I think it is a new proof that a lot of football players are really stupid and just "react" without thinking a second before acting... Even the greatest player.


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## tafanari

KaRiNe_Fr said:
			
		

> This is also a judge crisis. If they can be bought to make a team win, the whole system is perverted.
> About the Zidane case (only Zidane case for me as Materazzi was not responsible of any physical violence), I think it is a new proof that a lot of football players are really stupid and just "react" without thinking a second before acting... Even the greatest player.


 
I think that this proves that he's a person and makes mistakes. It was a big mistake because he was the best player in the biggest game of the sport. Most people aren't not good enough in the sport to put themselves in a position where making an error of that magnitude is even possible for them. There is a Spanish saying that says "the higher you fly, the harder you fall." 

The Italian football scandal is a different story altogether. The people at these clubs were not content with buying up all of the talent, they needed to buy up the referees and that really damages the game. Who won the scudetto last season? If Inter wins the Champions League this year, would there be an asterix next to it?

Maybe I have an American biais but I think UEFA needs to take a look at the role of money in the sport. The truth is that clubs like Juventus and Milan have always had an unfair advantage in the game. Maybe I have a Juventus biais but I remember Milan having what were essentially *two* Scudetto caliber teams. One playing, one on the bench. The one the bench, Berlusconi bought _not_ for them to play for Milan but so that they wouldn't play at Juventus, Roma, Inter etc. That's not fair. Not fair at all. 

This season, Juve and Milan are out of it. But the scudetto will probably go to a big money side and that's an unfair advantage too.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

This proves also soccer at high level make players in a state of mind we can't imagine. Being a fast reacter (I don't know how to say that), is also part of skills a football player has to have. It's a kind of instinct that makes him move that sharply and nicely. Now this incident is part of Zidane legend, as it makes him more human. But I'm sure that was not thought at all.

About UEFA, I think you are totally right tafanari (btw, your screen name is very funny for someone from Marseille!). They should avoid unfair behaviour. But now I'm not sure we can even trust those people either. Money is everywhere and "friendship" (in a nasty way) makes people cover them mutually for their cheatings I'm afraid. They should also avoid the "common" insults heard during the matches on the ground from the players. This is a big stain in soccer world too (idem for some supporters "lyrics"!).


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## Everness

For those who don't know what this crisis or scandal is all about, please check this BBC story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/5164194.stm

But this is not the first time that Italy has a scandal of this nature:

http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slug=reu-italyscandalsfactbox&prov=reuters&type=lgns

But before saying or thinking that only Italian Mafiosi do this type of stuff, check this two other stories:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_football_match-fixing_scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesliga_scandal_of_2005


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## LV4-26

More :
http://www.eurosport.com/football/ligue-2/2005-2006/sport_sto875896.shtml


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Unfortunately you're right Everness. And in France, we had the "OM-Valenciennes" affair too.

Edit : LV4-26, I wrote this note before seeing your link.


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## .   1

Vittorio52 said:
			
		

> Dear Etcetera
> May add something to your correct observations? Where are german judges? A guy on their territory, under their jurisdiction made a public and voluntary act of violence, that could risk to kill a person! How can they be so silent? Is a soccer camp a place where everything can be done? If violence of supporters must be punished, is the same for players! Don't you agree?
> Vittorio


I have watched the replay of the 'headbutt' a few times and in my opinion it is totally theatrical. My first reaction was that Zidane was writing a book and wanted to obtain even more publicity. It worked. I do not follow soccer and had no idea who Zidane was but now he is a world figure and there is no such thing as bad publicity.

If Zidane had been really cross surely he would have delivered a Liverpool Kiss to the bridge of Materazzi's nose and caused some real damage.

A headbutt delivered to the chest is nothing and Materazzi went down like a pole axed steer. It was as though he was on a trip wire and fell faster than gravity.

So the end result was that Zidane now has bragging rights from his final game which was a lacklustre affair resulting in a contrived result from penalty kicks. What happens if the penalties are even. Do they eventually flip a coin. Big deal.

This smacks of the final appearance by Don Bradman who strode out for his final cricket match needing only a handful of runs to finish on a Test Average of 100 but he was astonishingly out for a duck and his Test Average remained as 99.94. (The postal address of the Australian Broadcasting Company in Australia is Post Office Box 9994 in every capital city)

This was a far more dramatic end to his career than would have resulted had he scored ten or twenty runs or even a century because of the pathos inspired.

I suspect that Zidane will dine on his 'headbutt' for years and will probably ghost write a couple of books.

Oh, and on the crisis in Italian Soccer. Do you mean to tell me that Soccer players actually cheat in this world of mega million dollar contracts and ignorant bovver boys being feted like gods?

The only sin they committed was to get caught.

.,,


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## Everness

. said:
			
		

> Oh, and on the crisis in Italian Soccer. Do you mean to tell me that Soccer players actually cheat in this world of mega million dollar contracts and ignorant bovver boys being feted like gods?
> 
> The only sin they committed was to get caught.
> 
> .,,



We are focusing on football and it's perfecty ok. But I hope we aren't implying that the rest of the professional sports (American football, basketball, baseball, ice hockey, cricket, rugby, etc.) are exempt of the exact same type of wrongdoings (match-fixing, bribes, etc.)?


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## .   1

Everness said:
			
		

> We are focusing on football and it's perfecty ok. But I hope we aren't implying that the rest of the professional sports (American football, basketball, baseball, ice hockey, cricket, rugby, etc.) are exempt of the exact same type of wrongdoings (match-fixing, bribes, etc.)?


Anywhere that you have dollars you have divers.

.,,


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## maxiogee

. said:
			
		

> Anywhere that you have dollars you have divers.
> 
> .,,



You are, of course, aware that you are referring to divers sports


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## .   1

maxiogee said:
			
		

> You are, of course, aware that you are referring to divers sports


Divers sports containing diving divas delving for dollars.

.,,


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## maxiogee

SCUBA —> Sports Cheats Undermining Better Athletes


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## allykat

This being a thread on Italian soccer, I tell you my opinions on Italian soccer.

First, let me just say that I was rooting fror France all the way, and really, after all the fouls against Zidane by the Italian team that the ref. didn't call (totally thought the Italian side bought him off) and then the injury to his sholder, plus "words" from Materazzi (who in my opinion is a thug, was suspended for punching someone in the tunnel after a game) Zidane is allowed to be human. All that pressure/stress!

Secondly, soccer is such a drama sport now, everytime someone looks at another player that person seems to fly half way across the field and is moaning in agony as if he is about to die. Seconds later, they are up and running around as if nothing happened. The Italian team had some pretty creative flops/ moments of agony  during the final.

Finally, obviously were there is money, there will be corruption and players behaving badly. Just like in any major sport there are scandals (Lance Armstrong, Berry Bonds (spelling? not really a follower of baseball so don't know), the various NBA basketball players (drugs, assault, etc.)

Although I'd like to think not, soccer is not exempt as proven by the game fixing scandal in Italy. The mentality to win at all costs and then couple that with money (and everything that money brings) it makes for a powerful lure.


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## Heba

Though I am a fan of Inter Milan, and though I guess that we will continue to enjoy watching the performance of Povonand other good players in other teams, I still cannot imagine the Italian League without the Juve.

If the four teams involved did anything wrong, then they deserve the punishment. But one strange thing that I cannot comprehend is why the four teams involved in the scandal have not been treated equally. 

As for the Zidane- Materazzi thing, both were wrong, Zidane was physically violent, Materazzi was orraly violent. They have forgotten what football is about, it is not a war. But this is not their first time. Both Zidane and Materazzi have been violent before. It is not Zidane's first red card. Zidane was sent off back in 1998 world cup during the match of France and Saudi Arabia for physical violence. Matirazzi himself was physically violent against Juan Pablo Sorin in Inter Milan's match Vs Villareal in the last UEFA chamopions league. Materrazi hit Sorin without a ball. Materazzi was sent off because he caused the latter a cut above his brow that bled for minutes. But during the match, I was more on Zidane's side because I wanted his final match to be a good one (I am a bit emotional) and because I suspected that Materazzi should have been orally very provoking(I agree that Zidane should have acted more rationally- at least not to dissapoint those who think of him as an idol- but Zidane is a human being after all).


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## TimeHP

> Zidane is allowed to be human


 
Oh yes, all the players are allowed. 
But they also are expected to be professional. 
Spoilt, overpaid professional footballplayers who are asked to be quiet 90 minutes.
 
Ciao


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## Everness

allykat said:
			
		

> Zidane is allowed to be human. All that pressure/stress!



The statement "Zidane is allowed to be human" sounds great. However, Zidane forgot that he is a bipedal primate who belongs to the mammalian species Homo sapiens. Like the rest of us, he has a symbolic system that he should use. But let's not come down hard on Zizou: all of us sometimes behave  like the rest of the animal species. So we should change the above statement: "Zidane, like all of us, is allowed to act like other animals every now and then."  

Ernst Cassirer explains the difference between us and the rest of the animal kingdom. 

_Man has, as it were, discovered a new method of adapting himself to his environment. Between the receptor system and the effector system, which are to be found in all animal species, we find in man a third link which we may describe as the symbolic system. _

So we, unlike the rest of the animals, have a symbolic system. What impact this has on our behavior? Cassirer adds,

_ This new acquisition transforms the whole of human life. As compared with the other animals man lives not merely in a broader reality; he lives, so to speak, in a new dimension of reality. There is an unmistakable difference between organic reactions and human responses. In the first case a direct and immediate answer is given to an outward stimulus; in the second case the answer is delayed. It is interrupted and retarded by a slow and complicated process of thought. _

http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl071.html


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## LV4-26

Following your post, I tried an experiment and made a great discovery. My dog is a human being!  He didn't move when I called him a son of a bitch. I bet he's pondering how he should react at this very moment. I'll keep you all informed.


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## Everness

LV4-26 said:
			
		

> Following your post, I tried an experiment and made a great discovery. My dog is a human being!  He didn't move when I called him a son of a bitch. I bet he's pondering how he should react at this very moment. I'll keep you all informed.



Maybe he thinks you're his mom and agrees with the statement. Who knows?


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## LV4-26

Everness said:
			
		

> Maybe he thinks you're his mom and agrees with the statement. Who knows?


 I hadn't thought of that 
Now, please ladies and gentlemen, let's keep the topic.

Apparently, it's going to be very long for Juve to get over this affair. Plus, in the article, Deschamps doesn't mention the heavy fines and the loss of the Television rights.


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## vespista

As far as Zidane and Materazzi are concerned: Materazzi probably said something bad and Zidane probably couldn't handle that. Human or not -- what Zidane did was worse. But: he got his penalty for that. So I suppose that is that. Or at least should be.

As for the Moggiopoli thing: there is probably need for taking a look at the system, the clubs, the referees and everything. What makes this such a sad thing is that half of the cheaters are left playing in Serie A. My point is that the "trial" shouldn't have been rushed this way. The whole thing is a mess, right? Then why settle for punishing four clubs and  leaving the sickness to grow? Make a real investigation instead, let people defend themselves, and then let the heads roll that need to roll for us to have a "clean" Serie A. Don't punish the fans or the other teams (especially the ones in Serie B). Make the clubs that have had benefits from this economically pay ... in money and not in the blood of their fans. The verdict is unfair to almost everyone. That is the real scandal in my eyes.


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## V52

Dear Vespista, the judges MUST be quick! 
1- first for a techincal reason: the headline of July 25th to comunicate  to UEFA italian clubs included to Champions League.
2- We are talking of sport Justice, not ordinary Justice. The faults are proved, what should  judges have to look for ?
Vittorio


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## vespista

According to il Giornale there are now "new" evidence that mention two more teams. What if (if) one or both of these turn out to be among the ones that are to play in the CL? Or what if one of them is Inter? What with the awarding them the Scudetto and everything? I know they had to hurry, my only concern is that we go through this now and not everything comes out in the open. Then what? The same shit next year when new evidence surface? The real problem runs deeper, and I want that adressed as well. A system that makes it possible to cheat so much must also be revised, wouldn't you agree? As you must have guessed (by my Avatar picture) I'm a Viola fan myself, but I hope this doesn't make me too bias. After all, most people interested in the subject have some sort of "investment" of feelings in it as well.


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## V52

vespista said:
			
		

> The real problem runs deeper
> 
> I agree with you, read my previous posts... There is something deeper, a trend of thinking...
> V


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## vespista

Vittorio52 said:
			
		

> There is something deeper, a trend of thinking...



From a Swedish perspective: Up here different clubs have different types of fans. Clubs like Juventus (or Real Madrid in Spain or Manchester United in England) tend to have a huge following of people for whom the club, its "soul" and what it represents geographically and culturally doesn't matter, whereas other (smaller?) clubs often have a following of fans devoted to the club and all that comes with it. For a fan in the first group the team (the troop, the players) are most important, and they demand results in the series rather than bother with derbys or individual meatings. If fans from another clubs start talking about cheating, these fans will only respond with saying that this is the talk of someone being a sour looser. They don't even consider things like players, trainers or owners being able to dishonor the colours of the team. For them the people and the club are synonymous. I suppose this type of thinking could be one, of many reasons, that leads to focusing on results above all the rest. As I said, this is written from a non-Italian perspective, and perhaps this has no bearing on the situation at all.


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