# Urdu: صوتی اعتبار سے



## Gope

From Ibne Safi: A man tries to force his attention on a woman in a restaurant and sits opposite her. He says : 
میرانام فنچ ہے ...فنچ ... صوتی اعتبار سے بھی میری شخصیت سے بہت زیادہ ہم آہنگ ہے ۔ کیا خیال ہے مس
Urdu dictionary says sautii is aavaaz se muta'alliq, so what does this phrase mean here? Thanks.


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## Qureshpor

A finch is said to be a colourful songbird, with a nervous disposition that does n't seem to mind being caged. May be, your Mr. Finch is claiming to have these qualities and would not mind too much if he became a prisoner of her love and devotion. What do you think?


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## Gope

QP saaHib has read Finch's mind all right, for Finch is a monkey-faced aurat farosh trying to ensnare innocent girls by sweet talk;  by using the phrase Sautii etibaar se bhii - is he saying: apart from my name which is that of a songbird, _if you rely on my voice, too_, ...?


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## Qureshpor

^ I would say so. But I hope you will understand that it is not possible to give a definitive answer from a very brief context.


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## marrish

My taking is quite simple, but I'd like to make it complicated for the benefit of Gope SaaHib. I would like to lead you to the understanding of this piece on your own, but first I need your yes because not everyone likes to be taught 'a lesson'


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## Gope

marrish said:


> My taking is quite simple, but I'd like to make it complicated for the benefit of Gope SaaHib. I would like to lead you to the understanding of this piece on your own, but first I need your yes because not everyone likes to be taught 'a lesson'



You see, Marrish SaaHib, I have been receiving excellent lessons, and sometimes the gentlest and kindest possible chidings, and have only immensely benefited. So a big YES now! And yr smiley is wickedly hilarious!


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## marrish

OK, so let's move, what does صوت mean and what does _aavaaz ke muta3alliq_ meaan? And this smiley was intended to be quite wicked!


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## Gope

Saut means sound and aavaaz se muta3lliq means concerned with voice.


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## marrish

Well, aavaaz also means sound and you are correct on the meaning of Saut. Now, in Urdu we have the suffix -ii which we inherited from both Persian and Indic (but it doesn't mean the two are dead!) which helps to make adjectives out of nouns, eg. gaNgaa-> gaNgaa'ii, aavaaz- aavaazii, Saut becoming Sautii.
aavaaz ke muta3alliq means just what 'aavaazii would mean, that is, it points out, this definition, to the adjectival nature of Sautii.

In other words, Sautii is Saut waalaa/waalii but knowing that i3tbaar is a masculine noun, we end up with Saut waalaa only.

Next question. 

How you would place _i3tibaar se_ in this context?


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## Faylasoof

Gope said:


> From Ibne Safi: A man tries to force his attention on a woman in a restaurant and sits opposite her. He says :
> میرانام فنچ ہے ...فنچ ... صوتی اعتبار سے بھی میری شخصیت سے بہت زیادہ ہم آہنگ ہے ۔ کیا خیال ہے مس
> Urdu dictionary says sautii is aavaaz se muta'alliq, so what does this phrase mean here? Thanks.


 Here is the devlopement of my thought for this expression:

_Literal:_
My name is Finch ...(and) Finch...  from a phonological point of view is very much in unison with / goes very much with my personality! What do you say, Miss?

_Less literal: _
My name is Finch ...(and) Finch befits my personality / is in unison with / goes very much with my personality! What do you say, Miss?   

 میں سر میں سر ملا سكتا ہوں _maiN sur meN sur milaa saktaa huuN: sur meN sur milaanaa =_ _ham aahangii karnaa_ = I can sing with the chorus = I get along easily = I am very congenial and cooperative.

_Meaning:_
My name is Finch ...(and by virtue of being called) Finch I get along easily! What do you say, Miss?


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## marrish

janaab yih baat to bi-l-kul durust hae magar haa'e aap ne to mere khel kaa silsilah bigaaR diyaa hae! But tit for tat, I'd simply say ''It sounds well with my persona, it goes well as far as the sound of my name goes/ phonetically well'

_chheR xaanii xatm, puuchhne waale saaHib ko zaruur sochne kaa maal milaa hae._


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> janaab yih baat to bi-l-kul durust hae magar haa'e aap ne to mere khel kaa silsilah bigaaR diyaa hae! But tit for tat, I'd simply say ''It sounds well with my persona, it goes well as far as the sound of my name goes/ phonetically well'
> 
> _chheR xaanii xatm, puuchhne waale saaHib ko zaruur sochne kaa maal milaa hae._


 _to is kaa maTlab yeh hae keh kaafii Hadd tak aap kaa aur meraa sur mil hii gayaa go keh ham donoN _Finch_ kii TarH ruupii parinde to shaayad nahiiN haiN_ !!


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## marrish

Faylasoof said:


> _to is kaa maTlab yeh hae keh kaafii Hadd tak aap kaa aur meraa sur mil hii gayaa go keh ham donoN _Finch_ kii TarH ruupii parinde to shaayad nahiiN haiN_ !!


No better answer than this Faylasoof SaaHib janaab ke jawaab se a3laa kuchh bhii nahiiN. My mistake of writing chheeR-xaanii as it is spoken instead chheR-xwaanii as it is wirtten.


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## Chhaatr

marrish said:


> My mistake of writing chheeR-xaanii as it is spoken instead chheR-xwaanii as it is wirtten.



Wow! This is a revealation!  As a Hindi speaker it has always been _chheR khaanii_ for me.  I'm open to learning as I'm here as a chhaatr (taalib-e-3ilm) of Urdu.


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## Faylasoof

Chhaatr said:


> Wow! This is a revealation!  As a Hindi speaker it has always been _chheR khaanii_ for me.  I'm open to learning as I'm here as a chhaatr (taalib-e-3ilm) of Urdu.


 Chhaatr SaaHib, for this please look *here*, post no. 4. There is another thread (which I can't find now) where we discussed the merits of the either pronunciation.


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## marrish

Whatever be the case Chhaatr jii, it is x not kh (in Urdu).


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## Gope

Qureshpor said:


> ^ I would say so. But I hope you will understand that it is not possible to give a definitive answer from a very brief context.


More context: Finch is introduced to us by the author as a dublaa patlaa and short statured man whose face perfectly resembles that of a monkey. He is expensively dressed, though. He approaches A young woman, Rekha, and drawing a chair opposite her, asks her permission to sit. She mumbles zaroor, zaroor and sits up straight. She has looked at his features and thinks he has a perfect monkey face. Then he says: meraa naam finch hai ... Finch... Etc.
the interesting thing here is that neither the author directly, nor through Rekha's observation, has anything to say about Finch's voice. The what does he mean by Sautii aitibaar se? I should think "by virtue of being called Finch" as given by Faylasoof SaaHib fits the bill. Kyaa khayaal hai aapkaa, QP SaaHib?


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## marrish

Gope said:


> More context: Finch is introduced to us by the author as a dublaa patlaa and short statured man whose face perfectly resembles that of a monkey. He is expensively dressed, though. He approaches A young woman, Rekha, and drawing a chair opposite her, asks her permission to sit. She mumbles zaroor, zaroor and sits up straight. She has looked at his features and thinks he has a perfect monkey face. Then he says: meraa naam finch hai ... Finch... Etc.
> the interesting thing here is that neither the author directly, nor through Rekha's observation, has anything to say about Finch's voice. The what does he mean by Sautii aitibaar se? I should think "by virtue of being called Finch" as given by Faylasoof SaaHib fits the bill. Kyaa khayaal hai aapkaa, QP SaaHib?


Sorry for dropping in - as F. SaaHib said, it is :_"My name is Finch ...(and) Finch... *from a phonological point of view* is very much in unison with / goes very much with my personality! What do you say, Miss?"

_and I said: ''It sounds well with my persona, it goes well _*as far as the sound of *__*my name*__* goes/ phonetically*_ well'

Of course the two of us understand it in the same manner but try to explain this with different English wordings. I tried to point out what _Sautii i3tibaar se_ is related to - that is, not Finch's voice but the *sound of his name.*


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## Gope

Gope said:


> You see, Marrish SaaHib, I have been receiving excellent lessons, and sometimes the gentlest and kindest possible chidings, and have only immensely benefited. So a big YES now! And yr smiley is wickedly hilarious!





marrish said:


> Well, aavaaz also means sound and you are correct on the meaning of Saut. Now, in Urdu we have the suffix -ii which we inherited from both Persian and Indic (but it doesn't mean the two are dead!) which helps to make adjectives out of nouns, eg. gaNgaa-> gaNgaa'ii, aavaaz- aavaazii, Saut becoming Sautii.
> aavaaz ke muta3alliq means just what 'aavaazii would mean, that is, it points out, this definition, to the adjectival nature of Sautii.
> 
> In other words, Sautii is Saut waalaa/waalii but knowing that i3tbaar is a masculine noun, we end up with Saut waalaa only.
> 
> Next question.
> 
> How you would place _i3tibaar se_ in this context?



Today I read the initial pages of jang bajang by Muhammad Khan where in the preface it is said : maahol yaa virse ke i3tibaar se inke adiib banne kaa koii savaal hii paidaa na hotaa thaa. So I would infer from this unambiguous context that i3tibaar se means : if you relied on - but by now Faylasoof SaaHib has come up with a felicitous expression "by virtue of" which fits both my original context as well as here. Thanks, Marrish SaaHib, and I shall give you many more opportunities to apply your promised Socratic technique to lead me to the correct solution!


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## Gope

Faylasoof said:


> Here is the devlopement of my thought for this expression:
> 
> _Literal:_
> My name is Finch ...(and) Finch...  from a phonological point of view is very much in unison with / goes very much with my personality! What do you say, Miss?
> 
> _Less literal: _
> My name is Finch ...(and) Finch befits my personality / is in unison with / goes very much with my personality! What do you say, Miss?
> 
> میں سر میں سر ملا سكتا ہوں _maiN sur meN sur milaa saktaa huuN: sur meN sur milaanaa =_ _ham aahangii karnaa_ = I can sing with the chorus = I get along easily = I am very congenial and cooperative.
> 
> _Meaning:_
> My name is Finch ...(and by virtue of being called) Finch I get along easily! What do you say, Miss?



Faylasoof SaaHib, by virtue of seems to be just right to me as I have said in my response to Marrish SaaHib's question in this thread. Bahut bahut shukriyah.


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## Gope

marrish said:


> Sorry for dropping in - as F. SaaHib said, it is :_"My name is Finch ...(and) Finch... *from a phonological point of view* is very much in unison with / goes very much with my personality! What do you say, Miss?"
> 
> _and I said: ''It sounds well with my persona, it goes well _*as far as the sound of *__*my name*__* goes/ phonetically*_ well'
> 
> Of course the two of us understand it in the same manner but try to explain this with different English wordings. I tried to point out what _Sautii i3tibaar se_ is related to - that is, not Finch's voice but the *sound of his name.*



Will poor Rekha his intended victim understand the above two, or the more direct "by virtue of being called Finch"


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## marrish

Had I been the poor Rekha I'd gone with the above two! But prose masterpieces are meant to be read by others than Rekha and leave room for interpretation, so my taking is my interpretation haha!


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## marrish

Gope said:


> Today I read the initial pages of jang bajang by Muhammad Khan where in the preface it is said : maahol yaa virse ke i3tibaar se inke adiib banne kaa koii savaal hii paidaa na hotaa thaa. So I would infer from this unambiguous context that i3tibaar se means : if you relied on - but by now Faylasoof SaaHib has come up with a felicitous expression "by virtue of" which fits both my original context as well as here. Thanks, Marrish SaaHib, and I shall give you many more opportunities to apply your promised Socratic technique to lead me to the correct solution!


I'm most pleased with your response and it is very correct what you said. Faylasoof SaaHib has the talent of naming a spade a spade. ek baat aur rahii kih urduu meN lafz maH*au*l hae, *maaH*o*l nahiiN. Don't confuse it with _aab-o-hawaa_ as has been once or twice done on the pages of this forum.


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## Gope

marrish said:


> I'm most pleased with your response and it is very correct what you said. Faylasoof SaaHib has the talent of naming a spade a spade. ek baat aur rahii kih urduu meN lafz maH*au*l hae, *maaH*o*l nahiiN. Don't confuse it with _aab-o-hawaa_ as has been once or twice done on the pages of this forum.



Faylasoof SaaHib has in another thread on this word has given the pronunciation as *maa*Haul.


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## Qureshpor

Gope said:


> Faylasoof SaaHib has in another thread on this word has given the pronunciation as *maa*Haul.


There is a typo in marrish SaaHib's "maHaul". The word is as Faylassof SaaHib has spelt.


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## Gope

Qureshpor said:


> There is a typo in marrish SaaHib's "maHaul". The word is as Faylassof SaaHib has spelt.



Thanks, Qureshpor SaaHib, this was an elusive word!


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## Qureshpor

Gope said:


> Thanks, Qureshpor SaaHib, this was an elusive word!


It is made up of "maa + Haul" [What is around (one)]..Compare with "maa + jaraa" (What has passed)...maa + ba3d (what is after/meta...as in metaphysics).


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## Gope

Qureshpor said:


> It is made up of "maa + Haul" [What is around (one)]..Compare with "maa + jaraa" (What has passed)...maa + ba3d (what is after/meta...as in metaphysics).



Shukriyah, Qureshpor SaaHib, it does help to know how words are derived.


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## marrish

Qureshpor said:


> There is a typo in marrish SaaHib's "maHaul". The word is as Faylassof SaaHib has spelt.


Yes there is. Thanks because it was never my intention to misguide anyone. And there's a typo in your post, too!


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## Gope

marrish said:


> Yes there is. Thanks because it was never my intention to misguide anyone. And there's a typo in your post, too!


I'm sure Faylasoof SaaHib wouldn't mind it.


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