# Shop



## ThomasK

Could you tell how you translate *shop*? 

I  just mean the general word for  the place where we buy things, or well, that small place, I mean, where we bought things. I do not mean special shops, like the grocer's, butcher's, not just the corner shop. (It might not be that simple sometimes, but OK...) Adn of course a refer to the origin of the word is very welcome !

Dutch: *winkel *(corner)
English : *shop *(originally a shed ?)
French: *magasin *
German: *Laden *or *Geschäft*
...


----------



## Fericire

In Portuguese: *loja*, from French *loge*.


----------



## DearPrudence

*French*:
*un magasin* (nm) (general)
*une boutique *(nf) (smaller)

Sorry, I don't know the origin of these words.


----------



## ThomasK

Interesting, thank you both. L*oge *might refer to a little shed (1350 already), so I read, like the English _shop_... *Boutique *then seems based on O. Prov. botica, which then refer to Gr. _apotheke _[not _farmako, _as I first wrote!_] _! I then find out that _*magasin *_is either based on Arabic _maḵāzin_, plural of _maḵzan_ ‘storehouse, warehouse’, belonging tot the verb _ḵazana_ ‘store'. But it got into French via the Italian _magazzino_ ‘id.’ [before 1348], or the Provencal, indirectly attested in Marseille as medieval Lat. _magazenum, _a store in an Algerian coastal town’ [1228].


----------



## bibax

Czech:

*obchod*, from the verb obcházeti (ob + choditi), a frequentative form of the verb obejíti (= to go round, Lat. obire, obambulare);

Obchod means also 'business/Handel' (zahraniční/vnitřní obchod = der Außenhandel/Binnenhandel).

*prodejna* (selling place), from the verb prodati (= to sell), from dáti (= to give);

*krám* (colloq.), from German Kramladen;


----------



## sound shift

That Arabic word (post no. 4) seems to be the source of Turkish "mağaza" (= "storehouse", "shop") too. Turkish also has "dükkân" for shop. The absence of vowel harmony in the latter suggests non-Turkish origin, and the elongated "a" may point to Arabic (not sure if there is a cognate in Arabic).


----------



## bibax

> Boutique then seems based on O. Prov. botica, which then refer to Gr. apotheke!


Spanish bodega, Italian bottega.

In Czech we have a cognate: putika/putyka (= a pub).


----------



## apmoy70

In Greek:

«Κατάστημα» (ka'tastima, _n._)--> lit. _condition, state of affairs_, metaph. _establishment_, a derivation of the Classical verb «καθίστημι» (kă'tʰĭstēmĭ)--> _to ordain, appoint, set in order_, in periphrases, _to make_.
Colloquially, «μαγαζί» (maɣa'zi, _n._), an Arabic loan word (maḵāzin) via Ottoman Turkish (mağaza).
During holiday season, our women take a stroll in the «καταστήματα» (kata'stimata, _pl. neuter_) or the «μαγαζιά» (maɣazi'a, _pl. neuter_). 

_Edit_: According to the _Portal for the Greek language_, it's not via Turkish we've loaned the word «μαγαζί», but rather via the Venetian _magazin_.

PS: Happy New Year.


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks, ladies and gentlemen! That is quite a variety of words and origins. Quite interesting !


----------



## sakvaka

*Finnish*.

The word is _kauppa_. It is in fact a Germanic borrowing (cf. German _Kauf_, Swedish _köp_ 'purchase').

_Jos minä siivoan, niin käytkö sinä sillä välin kaupassa?
_If I clean, will you do the shopping meanwhile? (lit. 'visit the shop')


----------



## itreius

Croatian (BCS)

_trgovina_ <- _trg_ (~square, market; a word similar to it exists in North Germanic languages - _torg_, a loanword from Russian if I recall correctly)
_dućan_ <- from the Turkish word that's already been mentioned by sound shift in this thread
_prodavaonica_ <- _prodati_ (to sell) <- _dati_ (to give); the Serbian and Bosnian registers use _prodavnica_


----------



## ThomasK

It is so amazing to me that this one concept (it is, isn't it) is translated in so many different ways. And it seems to refer to the kind of place (corner, booth, ...), to the action (selling, giving), ... 

What I just wondered about is: could it be a fairly recent phenomenon? In most cases, I guess, there were markets (for fresh products) and the places where craftsmen worked or stored their products (_store, magasin_/...).


----------



## 涼宮

In *Japanese *you say 店 /mi'se/

As for the origin, it is an abbreviation of 見世棚 /miseda'na/, part of it comes from the shelves 棚 /da'na/ that the customers looked. Therefore the verb to look 見る /mi'ɽu/ transformed into a noun 見せ /mi'se/. Shelves 棚 /da'na/ can be used to say shop (店) as well. 
In the Edo period (1603 - 1868), in the red-light district, the harlots would invite the clients by preparing in advance the grid pattern of a room that faced the road. From there comes 見世 and 張り見世 /haɾimi'se/ which means ''displaying prostitutes behind a grille'', from the harlots that walk the streets among junior officers the term 見世女郎 _misejorou_ /mised͡ʒo'ɾoː/ appeared, the term means low-class prostitute who was kept in a sort of cage at the front of the  establishment.
The kanji 店 per se implies the meaning of setting up a house in one place, it seems to be used to distinguish from peddlers(行商人) and open air-markets(市の露天).

There are more ways to say shop/store, also as suffixes.

Hope it was interesting


----------



## rusita preciosa

DearPrudence said:


> *French*:
> *un magasin* (nm) (general)


The Russian word came from French: *магазин* /magazin/

EDIT: the old word for small specialized shops was *лавка */lavka/ =  bench. Similar to the origin of the word "bank".


----------



## ThomasK

So I see some more trends: 
- place (corner, booth, ...), 
- particular objects (shelves, benches, tents [_Kramladen, kraam_]),  
- to the action (selling, buying, giving, storing), ... 

It might be interesting to get some more information : 
- Greek: originally a state of things simply ? Do you see a link with selling ? 
- Japanese: what are _*da'na *_precisely? The wooden boards, the racks ? 
- Turkish (and Croatian) : *duccan *- any idea of the origin, anyone? 

While reading about the *лавка */lavka/, bench, I wondered whether we might not need to get back to that very basic person-to-person exchange system... ;-)


----------



## sound shift

ThomasK said:


> - Turkish (and Croatian) : *duccan *- any idea of the origin, anyone?


"Dokkan" means "shop" in Persian and Arabic too. Unfortunately I don't know what else (if anything) it means in those two languages. 

As to the etymology, I can't help much. All I know is the chronology of events:

1) 7th century: Arab conquest of Persia. Many Arabic terms enter Persian.
2) A couple of centuries later: Turkic-speaking peoples from Central Asia enter the area of Persian cultural influence situated to the north of present-day Iran. These peoples borrow many Persian terms, some of which were in turn Persian borrowings from Arabic.
3) These Turkic-speaking peoples pass through Baghdad en route to Anatolia.
4) 14th and 15th centuries: Ottoman Turks conquer most of the Balkans.

Presumably the Ottomans took the word _duccan/dükkân/dokkan _to Croatia. But as to the origin of the word, I don't know:
Originally Arabic, then loaned to Persian, which loaned it to Turkish 
Originally Persian, then loaned to Arabic at the time of the Arab invasion of Persia and later to the Turkic-speaking peoples when they appeared to the north of Persia 
Originally Persian, then loaned to the Turks who loaned it to Arabic while passing through Baghdad 
Originally Turkic, then loaned first to the Persians and then to the Arabs  (I think this is unlikely, on account of the fact that in Turkish this word has an elongated "a", which is regarded as foreign to Turkish.)

None of the above? 

Rather a mystery!


----------



## ThomasK

This is quite nice: how word etymology brings up history... But I might have found the answer (my italics) at a Wikipedia site where Arabic influence on Spanish is shown: 



> [Spanish]* adoquín*: paving-stone, cobble; block. From _*Arabic *_*Dukkan*_* bench of rock or wood*_.



Could anyone now refer me to a (cultural) history of shops ? ;-)


----------



## sound shift

Well done, Thomas. I was only reading about "adoquín" yesterday, but I didn't spot the connection with "dukkan".


----------



## mataripis

In Tagalog, to shop is " Mamili(h)" meaning to select the things to buy.The origin of "Mamili(h)" is "Mamili' "(to select) from root word "pili"(select). But when buying one or few items the word "bumili" is used.In buy and sell the verb is "Mangalakal"( trading).


----------



## 涼宮

ThomasK said:


> It might be interesting to get some more information :
> - Japanese: what are _*da'na *_precisely? The wooden boards, the racks ?



Yes, precisely the racks. Here you see a lot of images http://www.google.co.ve/search?tbm=...047l1624l0l2103l5l4l0l0l0l1l230l617l1.2.1l4l0


----------



## ThomasK

I quite see the racks, thanks. 

@Mataripis: interesting ! So that implies that _pili _is selecting (or choosing, I guess), _bumili _is just buying - but is there any link (-ili)? Any idea of the origin of _mangalakal [_or related/ similar words]?


----------



## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> I quite see the racks, thanks.
> 
> @Mataripis: interesting ! So that implies that _pili _is selecting (or choosing, I guess), _bumili _is just buying - but is there any link (-ili)? Any idea of the origin of _mangalakal [_or related/ similar words]?


Mangalakal has old term "Bakal" meaning to buy. In Cavite, Market place is "Baraka", in Other places "Barakalan", This word "bakal" is still used in Bisaya and Bikol but in Tagalog it has form "kalakal"(merchandise/commodities). I am sure all these words(about trading) originated in "bakal". Note: the present day Tagalog has word" bakal" for "iron" ( read slowly).The market place is "Pamilihan".


----------



## Perseas

mataripis said:


> Mangalakal has old term "Bakal" meaning to buy. In Cavite, Market place is "Baraka", in Other places "Barakalan", This word "bakal" is still used in Bisaya and Bikol but in Tagalog it has form "kalakal"(merchandise/commodities). I am sure all these words(about trading) originated in "bakal". Note: the present day Tagalog has word" bakal" for "iron" ( read slowly).The market place is "Pamilihan".


Interesting. In my language there is the word _bakaliko (μπακάλικο)_ meaning _grocer's [shop]_ and also _bakalis (μπακάλης) _meaning_ grocer_. My dictionary says its orgin is the arabian _baqqal, and _came to the Greek language via the turkish _bakkal_.


----------



## ThomasK

mataripis said:


> Mangalakal has old term "*Bakal*" meaning to buy. In Cavite, Market place is "*Baraka*", in Other places "*Barakalan*", This word "bakal" is still used in Bisaya and Bikol but in Tagalog it has form "*kalakal*"(merchandise/commodities).
> I am sure all these words(about trading) originated in "bakal". Note: the present day Tagalog has word" bakal" for "iron" ( read slowly).The market place is "Pamilihan".



It would be interesting indeed to find out what the origin of _baqqal _is, or _bakkal_. Groceries and iron do not seem related though... At the Arabic forum I am told it means 'vegetables' - and there is no connection with iron.


----------



## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> It would be interesting indeed to find out what the origin of _baqqal _is, or _bakkal_. Groceries and iron do not seem related though... At the Arabic forum I am told it means 'vegetables' - and there is no connection with iron.


The term "bakal" is an old word in ancient language in the Philippines.It evolved into many forms in Tagalog,Bisaya,Bikol,Ilokano,Panggasinan(all in Phil.Archipelago).I think it is related in word "baqqal" from Mediterrenean region. The second form "bah-kal" is new word for Iron(i forgot the older term).but during Iron Age, Iron/bakal was the most saleble item for weaponry!This mean if the trend is buying new item, it is possible that there was an era that "Bakal"(iron) became the talk of the town during iron age period.


----------



## ThomasK

So you suggest there might be a link. Do you have any reason for believing that hypothesis ? Did the Philippines have relations with the Arabs ???


----------



## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> So I see some more trends:
> - place (corner, booth, ...),
> - particular objects (shelves, benches, tents [_Kramladen, kraam_]),
> - to the action (selling, buying, giving, storing), ...
> 
> It might be interesting to get some more information :
> - Greek: originally a state of things simply ? Do you see a link with selling ?


Yes originally a state of things and metaphorically an establishment, a place of living and/or selling goods. Its original meaning has no connection at all with selling. We also describe (and translate) the facility -any facility- as «κατάστημα»


----------



## mataripis

ThomasK said:


> So you suggest there might be a link. Do you have any reason for believing that hypothesis ? Did the Philippines have relations with the Arabs ???


The past history tell that the inhabitants of Islands in the southeast Asia had connections with Indian Empires and had known trading events for centuries.later,Arab/jews learned the routes and did trades too with Brown race of far east Asia.


----------



## OneStroke

In Chinese, it's 商店 (shangdian) or 店鋪 (dianpu). There are probably a lot more as vernacular Chinese is known to have lots of 'synonyms' formed with the same group of morphemes.  I think those morphemes are just ones from classical Chinese and don't come from another language, though I don't know for sure.


----------



## ThomasK

But would you be able to comment on the /dian/ somehow ? Does it refer to something in particular ?


----------



## OneStroke

'Dian' just means 'shop'. The same goes for 'pu'. Morphemes of the same meaning smash together to form words in vernacular (i.e. standard) Chinese: both syllables of 'yanjing' mean 'eye' and ditto for 'pengyou' (friend), etc. I believe 'dian' can be used as a stand-alone word in standard Chinese. In Cantonese, 'pu' is certainly a word. I don't know the 'root' meaning of shang, but it's got something to do with trade and commerce - shangren = merchant, shangye = commerce, etc. There's also a dynasty by the same name (though it's probably not related as the Liang Dynasty has nothing to do with pillars, the Xia Dynasty has nothing to do with summer and the Jin Dynasty has nothing to do with gold.)


----------



## rusita preciosa

mataripis said:


> Mangalakal has old term "Bakal" meaning to buy.


Interesting! In Russian there is a word *бакалея* /bakaleya/ meaning something like "non-perisheable goods" like tea, flour, sugar, grains, spices etc... The store or the store department selling that has the same term. I bet this came from the same source (Arabic / Turkic?...).

(Although this word is used less and less, it was very common even 15-20 years ago.)


----------



## ThomasK

I think I checked on that and the only answer I got from the Arabic section was groceries, or no, vegetable, which are very perishable, I think _(see #25),_ but I wonder if we are missing out on some information.

[[I am adding this one day later] I was told at the Arabic forum that these groceries refer to *dry edible goods*, and so I suppose that implies that they are not perishable, or not quickly. QED ?


----------



## ThomasK

itreius said:


> Croatian (BCS)
> 
> _dućan_ <- from the Turkish word that's already been mentioned by sound shift in this thread


Could anyone explain the origin of this (Turkish) word ?


----------



## AutumnOwl

Swedish:
Affär - shop, but also business
Butik - usually a small shop
Handelsbod - old word for shop, store (handel - trade, bod - stall)
Marknad - market, often outdoor market



ThomasK said:


> - particular objects (shelves, benches, tents [_Kramladen, kraam_])


There is a word krämare in Swedish for a person who sold small things like needles, buttons, combs, soaps and so on in markets or in small stalls.


----------



## Gavril

Finnish has several other words for "shop" besides _kauppa_:

_liike _(from the same root as _liikkua _"move"; _liike _can also mean "movement" or "business")
_myymälä _(< _myy- _"sell" + verbal noun suffix _-mä_ + location suffix _-__lä_)
_puoti _(< Swedish _bod_)


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks, quite interesting. However, what would the most typical word would be for such a common place (until 20 years ago) as a shop?


----------



## Gavril

ThomasK said:


> Thanks, quite interesting. However, what would the most typical word would be for such a common place (until 20 years ago) as a shop?



If you're talking about the Finnish word for "shop", I believe that _kauppa _is the most common term overall (Finns, please correct me if I'm wrong). But, there are certain kinds of shops that tend to use a different word than _kauppa_: for example, _valokuvausliike _is the normal term for "photo shop" as opposed to _valokuvauskauppa._


----------



## sakvaka

Gavril said:


> If you're talking about the Finnish word for "shop", I believe that _kauppa _is the most common term overall (Finns, please correct me if I'm wrong). But, there are certain kinds of shops that tend to use a different word than _kauppa_: for example, _valokuvausliike _is the normal term for "photo shop" as opposed to _valokuvauskauppa._



 Confirmed.

_Myymälä_ is eg. used in the word _valintamyymälä_ ([super]market, lit. "choice ~").


----------



## ThomasK

Spanish (and Catalan): *tenida *- very much like _store_, _magasin_, I suppose.


----------



## arielipi

Hebrew:
מכולת macolet - col = everything/all, is in it


----------



## ThomasK

I see... Like a store then, where you store everything, I suppose...


----------



## sound shift

ThomasK said:


> Spanish (and Catalan): *tenida *- very much like _store_, _magasin_, I suppose.


 Are you talking about old Spanish and old Catalan, perhaps? (I'm not claiming any knowledge of either.) Right now the usual Spanish word for "shop" is "tienda", while Catalan has "botiga".


----------



## ThomasK

My mistake: _tienda _is the word, I made a mistake, sorry!


----------



## arielipi

Ummmm macolet is the local grocery general shop actually. The most general term for shop, i.e. where you buy stuff with no indication of what the store is aboyut we use:
חנות
khanut from root kh-n-y/h


----------



## Gavril

Armenian also has խանութ (_khanut_) "shop". According to Wiktionary, Armenian got this word from Syriac, along with the term for "market", շուկայ (Western _shuga, _Eastern _shuka_), which is related to Hebrew _shuq _/ Arabic _suuq._


----------



## ahmedcowon

Interesting that many languages use Arabic terms:

The general word for "shop" in Arabic is محل (_mahal_) which also means "place" [pl. محال (_mahaal_) or محلات (_mahallaat_)]

small shop is دكان (_dukkaan_) [pl. دكاكين (_dakaakeen_)]

we also have the word حانوت (_haanuut_) [pl. حوانيت (_hawaaneet_)] but it is not used at this time


----------



## arielipi

Hebrew also has דוכן duchan, its equal in english would be a stand, like a street shop, no building.


----------



## rusita preciosa

Interesting that in this thread I have not seen the word similar to *bazar.*


In Russian there is an outdated word *базар */bazar/ - open-air market / fair / seasonal sale. The etymological dictionary says it came into Russian trough Turkic languages from Iranian. 

Does that word exist in modern Farsi, Turkish or may be borrowed into Semitic or other languages?


----------



## Gavril

Mexican Spanish: _*changarro *_"small shop" 

This can refer to a small store in a building, a stall in a marketplace, a kiosk, and so on. It can also refer to a small business in general.


----------



## kloie

yes persian still used Bazaar


----------



## rusita preciosa

kloie said:


> yes persian still used Bazaar


Can you expand on that? What does it mean?


----------



## DenisBiH

rusita preciosa said:


> Interesting that in this thread I have not seen the word similar to *bazar.*
> 
> In Russian there is an outdated word *базар */bazar/ - open-air market / fair / seasonal sale. The etymological dictionary says it came into Russian trough Turkic languages from Iranian.
> 
> Does that word exist in modern Farsi, Turkish or may be borrowed into Semitic or other languages?



It exists in BCS, as pazar, but not with the meaning "shop". That dictionary lists the meanings as:

1) Trade, buying and selling
2) Open-air market (archaic as in Russian)
3) a) Goods being sold; b) money earned in trade

There is also a derived verb pazariti, meaning "to shop; to buy".


----------



## rusita preciosa

DenisBiH said:


> There is also a derived verb pazariti, meaning "to shop; to buy".


 In Russian there is a derived verb *базарить */bazarit'/ meaning to quarrel, to fight (verbally), to throw a tantrum.


----------

