# einer inneren Entscheidung...



## venkatkk

Einer inneren Entscheidung, die wir dann natürlich auch miteinander besprachen, dass die einzige Art und Weise, wie Deutschland als Land gerettet werden kann, ist, indem es den Krieg verliert

In the above sentence why is einer inneren Entscheidung in dativ shouldn’t it rather be in no in nominativ - eine innere Entscheidung?


----------



## Kajjo

Please quote all necessary parts:

_



			Um die Zeit von Stalingrad kamen wir dann alle zu einer Entscheidung. Einer inneren Entscheidung, die wir dann natürlich auch miteinander besprachen, dass die einzige Art und Weise, wie Deutschland als Land gerettet werden kann, ist, indem es den Krieg verliert. Das war eine furchtbare Entscheidung. Das ist nicht leicht, sich dazu durchzuringen."
		
Click to expand...

_
This is spoken language and the sentences are not fully grammatical, but partly elliptical and written down with misleading punctuation. You are right that "Einer inneren Entscheidung" makes no sense here if taken as stand-alone sentence.

Read it as follow:

_Um die Zeit von Stalingrad kamen wir dann alle zu einer Entscheidung -- einer inneren Entscheidung, die wir dann natürlich auch miteinander besprachen. [Und zwar, ] dass die einzige Art und Weise, wie Deutschland als Land gerettet werden kann, [diejenige] ist, den Krieg zu verlieren._

The "einer inneren Entscheidung" repeats the words "zu einer Entscheidung" and omits the prepostion "zu" which requires dative. In spoken language this is very natural.


----------



## Hutschi

Hi Kajjo, where do you see misleading punctuation?
As far as I see all is correct, considering the elliptical style.
Did you correct it in the quotation  to make it more comprehensive?

(Just to note: I agree to all other of your statements and the "expansion" of the sentence.)


----------



## Kajjo

Hutschi said:


> Hi Kajjo, where do you see misleading punctuation?


The period in

_...alle zu einer Entscheidung*.* Einer inneren Entscheidung, die...
_
is not reasonable. Usually you would use a comma or dash. Otherwise the elliptical structure is quite extensive "Wir kamen zu" with a mixture of predicate, subject and necessary preposition.

With a comma or dash, however, it is not even a real ellipsis but just a enumeration or repetition with adding an adjective and these structures are very natural.

_Ich traf eine Entscheidung, eine wichtige Entscheidung. 
_
I would not analyse that as ellipsis of a second "ich traf", but as enumeration or repetition of the object. This requires a comma or dash.


----------



## Perseas

Zwischen "zu einer Entscheidung" und "einer inneren Entscheidung" gibt es einen äußeren (Dativ) und einen inhaltlichen Zusammenhang. Als ich bei OP nur das "einer inneren Entscheidung" sah, da hatte ich ein Problem.


----------



## Hutschi

It is similar to what you wrote here:
coordinating clause/sub clause used as a single sentence

I think, too, that it is an emphasizing "trick".
It is not seldom in German texts.

To replace it by dash is a good way to understand the sentence.


----------



## elroy

I find Kajjo’s disapproval of the period surprising.  I don’t find it confusing in the least; like Hutschi said, this is a very common device in German (and in English).


----------



## venkatkk

Thanks everyone for the replies. What kajjo says, makes sense to me as – if there is a fullstop, the sentence should ideally begin anew after that. Will keep in mind next time to see if the sentence is from quoted speech or not.


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> I find Kajjo’s disapproval of the period surprising.  I don’t find it confusing in the least; like Hutschi said, this is a very common device in German (and in English).


As he said, this does occur in transcriptions of spoken language. It would never occur in written language, where the text between two full stops has to form a syntactically complete sentence. The only exceptions are texts under poetic license headline/telegram style texts and transcriptions of spoken language.


----------



## elroy

I’ve definitely seen it in ordinary written language.  If I come across an example, I’ll post it.


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, I think it depends on style. It will probably not occure in technical manuals or in formal texts.
I definitely read it in novels and so I did not see any problems with it until Kajjo mentioned it.
It implicitely opens a second instance of the first sentence as empty trace and this way causes an amplification.
I just did not know that it is not standard, but tpo me it is an idiomatic option.


----------



## elroy

I did a Google search with the word "Entscheidung" and in a matter of seconds I found five results:

Reichtum und Geld zu verdienen ist keine Glückssache und wird einem nur selten in die Wiege gelegt, sondern ist eine bewusste Entscheidung. Eine Entscheidung für ein Leben mit einem klaren Ziel.
Mythos Reichtum – Was machen reiche Menschen anders als der Durchschnitt

Es war eine Entscheidung. Eine Entscheidung mit viel Bedacht und die wahrlich eine Zeit in mir wachsen musste.
https://mumlife.de/mein-kind-zieht-aus/

Der Startpunkt Deiner Reise sollte genau das sein: eine Entscheidung. Eine Entscheidung, Dein Leben bewusst zu gestalten – nicht nur der Wunsch, ein bewusstes Leben zu führen.
Wie fange ich an? Erste Schritte zu einem bewussten Leben

Mein Aufbruch ist eine Entscheidung. Eine Entscheidung heraus aus der Sucht, die einen gefangen hält.
Zielgerade - Verboten - Aufbruch

Das ist wirklich nicht schwer. Es ist eine Entscheidung. Eine Entscheidung zu mehr Lebensfreude, Klarheit, Gelassenheit, Mitgefühl, Akzeptanz, Vertrauen und vielem mehr.
Mindfulness - 3 hilfreiche Fakten, die du unbedingt wissen solltest!


----------



## berndf

Those are all what I would describe as _presentation or sales pitch style language_ and emulates rhetorical patters that typically only work in spoken language. To me they belong to the exception class "transcriptions of spoken language".


----------



## elroy

It’s a rhetorical device, so obviously it’s used to achieve certain effects.  If those effects can also be achieved in speech, that does not make this any less of a valid and legitimate rhetorical device in _written_ German.  You can’t seriously claim that every single instance of this use is an emulation of spoken German.


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> You can’t seriously claim that every single instance of this use is an emulation of spoken German.


I can and I do. You don't have to follow me, that is your decision but what my, subjective, Sprachgefühl tells me is that it does.


----------



## Kajjo

I agree with Berndf -- or he agrees with me or whatever. 

It is like transcripted spoken language and the punctuation is simply wrong. In written text the punctuation should be different. The quote sites are not written by people focusing on orthography and linguistics.

@elroy: Do whatever you want, but be assured this is bad punctuation style. Please note that we do not object to the repetition or content, just the way it is presented.


----------



## Hutschi

Hi, I am centrist here, the rhetorical device may or may not be used with bad punctiation style, depending on context.
I often found it in texts not reflecting speeches, nevertheless it might be speech style. It is a rhetorical device, and it may work or not work.

In the given context: Somebody is learning German, it does not work at the first place. So it is bad style in such context.


I found a source where it is a kind of "reporting style".

Widerstandsgruppe um Geschwister Scholl - Das Ende der "Weißen Rose"
*Widerstandsgruppe um Geschwister Scholl
Das Ende der "Weißen Rose"*



> *Franz Josef Müller:*
> [...]
> "Um die Zeit von Stalingrad kamen wir dann alle zu einer Entscheidung."
> 
> *Jürgen Wittenstein, Mitglied der "Weißen Rose":*
> 
> "Einer inneren Entscheidung, die wir dann natürlich auch miteinander besprachen, dass die einzige Art und Weise, wie Deutschland als Land gerettet werden kann, ist, indem es den Krieg verliert. Das war eine furchtbare Entscheidung. Das ist nicht leicht, sich dazu durchzuringen."



Here the full stop is followed by author and quotation.

It is not just a full stop. A comma or n-dash would not work.
The article seems to use fragments from different sources.

Could you provide yor source, please?

In the article in the link, the style is quite consistently using elliptical constructions.

It is "Reportage-Stil".

(Somewhere between written and spoken language).

I did not find Kajjo's source. His source is either missing essential parts or my source is wrong.

The part: _Jürgen Wittenstein, Mitglied der "Weißen Rose":_ is quite essentially.

It separates more than just a full stop.
It suggests that both quotations are from different sources. (Otherwise the name would be in front of the first part.

It becomes a fragmentaric elliptical style rather than just a fully "expandible" elliptical style.

*Addition:*
Both sentences are "spoken" by different persons, and it is not clear whether they are quoted from one source or from different sources, at least without more context.


----------



## bearded

Hutschi said:


> Hi Kajjo, where do you see misleading punctuation?
> As far as I see all is correct, considering the elliptical style.





Kajjo said:


> It is like transcripted spoken language and the punctuation is simply wrong.


Actually I, too, often found that 'rhetorical device'  - with a full stop -  in German books and papers (although I don't have examples at hand at the moment).
Please note that it is a quite common literary feature in many languages - including mine. I'm inclined to think that there isn't necessarily a reference to spoken language.


----------



## elroy

bearded said:


> Please note that it is a quite common literary feature in many languages - including mine. I'm inclined to think that there isn't necessarily a reference to spoken language.


 

Here's an example from a newspaper article:

Insgesamt 60 Fotografien erzählen eine Geschichte. Eine Geschichte von Begegnungen, Berührungen, Freundschaft und dem Ende des Lebens.
Göppingen: Bilder erzählen eine Geschichte​
And here's one from a company website:

Um besonders effektiv zu handeln, braucht es eine gewissenhafte Analyse. Eine Analyse, die Ihnen zeigt, wo Chancen auf Sie warten.
Challenge - Management Services Helwig Schmitt GmbH​
And here are a couple examples from books:

Alle schauten mich erwartungsvoll an und erwarteten eine salomonische Entscheidung. Eine Entscheidung die das Recht aller berücksichtigte.
Terry

Eine Straßenbahn. Und eine Geschichte. Eine Geschichte, die von Ende und Anfang erzählt, von Trennung und Verschmelzung, von Tod und Wiedergeburt. Eine Geschichte aber auch wie ein Schiffbruch, aus dem sich für den, der in die Tiefe zu tauchen vermag, vieles bergen lässt.
Wiener Seele​
These were extremely easy to find.  I'm sure I could easily find dozens of examples from different genres.

This is not about what I would personally "do."  This is a linguistic analysis of a widespread cross-linguistic phenomenon (this is not at all unique to German).  The sentences would simply not have the same effect if punctuated differently.  There may be a prescriptive rule that says these sentences are mispunctuated, but personally I'm not interested in prescriptive rules here.  Great writers effectively break prescriptive punctuation rules all the time.  In my view, to characterize every single instance of this widespread punctuation style as a mere representation of spoken language is an untenable oversimplification.


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> This is not about what I would personally "do." This is a linguistic analysis of a widespread cross-linguistic phenomenon (this is not at all unique to German).


The phenomenon is common but not the register attribution, which is socio-linguistic and not linguistic.


----------



## Perseas

Kajjo said:


> The period in
> 
> _...alle zu einer Entscheidung*.* Einer inneren Entscheidung, die..._
> 
> is not reasonable. Usually you would use a comma or dash.


From my experience, this style of writing is not encouraged at school:  _...alle zu einer Entscheidung*.* Einer inneren Entscheidung, die..._


----------



## elroy

berndf said:


> The phenomenon is common but not the register attribution, which is socio-linguistic and not linguistic.


 I don't understand what you mean.  Can you rephrase?


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> I don't understand what you mean.  Can you rephrase?


Our discussion is not about the existence or non-existance of this rhetorical figure but about its register attribution.

Germans get taught already at very young age and very persistently that everything between two full stops that isn't a syntactically complete sentence is a colloquialism and completely unacceptable in standard language. I personally sometimes use this rhetorical figure in writing too. But only if I am feel that the context is sufficiently informal to use informal spoken language style. In this forum I might use it in English but in German only in private messages. In public posts I would only ever use it when a comma or semi-colon can be used instead of a full stop. And even that I try to avoid.


----------



## elroy

berndf said:


> Germans get taught already at very young age and very persistently that everything between two full stops that isn't a syntactically complete sentence is a colloquialism and completely unacceptable in standard language.


 It's prescriptively proscribed in English too, but again, I was not focusing on prescriptive rules.  _Descriptively_, I would not say that this device is limited to informal contexts in practice, in either language.


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> It's prescriptively proscribed in English too, but again, I was not focusing on prescriptive rules.  _Descriptively_, I would not say that this device is limited to informal contexts in practice, in either language.


Then I don't understand why you are contradicting me. I _descriptively_ explained that the use if this figure in writing is used by the writer and understood by the reader as "emulating spoken language" style.


----------



## elroy

berndf said:


> used by the writer and understood by the reader as "emulating spoken language" style


 This is the part I disagree with.


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> This is the part I disagree with.


On the basis of a descriptive analysis it hardly matters if you agree with it or not. It only matters if it is a fact and it is one.


----------



## elroy

_You_ think it’s a fact; I don’t.

You haven’t presented anything to support your position or to justify your claim that this is a “fact.”  You even acknowledged in #15 that this is based on your _subjective_ Sprachgefühl.


----------



## berndf

elroy said:


> _You_ think it’s a fact; I don’t.


The situation is asymmetrical here. The disagreement is about native speakers' perception. Kajjo's and my descriptions can therefore count as _empirical evidence_ in themselves, your opinion not. You would have to present counter evidence.


----------



## elroy

Hutschi doesn’t agree with you.


----------



## bearded

A question to berndf:
In this discussion it has been mentioned several times that the OP sentence (with that fullstop etc.) is in 'spoken-language style', or even a sort of transcription from spoken language.  But who would speak like this? ''Wir kamen ..zu einer Entscheidung.  Einer inneren Entscheidung...''. Wer würde in alltäglichem Deutsch denn so sprechen? Or - as spoken language - do you refer to official speeches or declarations? If so, then please note that such speeches are often written before they are pronounced, and therefore they rather resemble or imitate literature...
 To me, that sentence  does not sound like informal style (but then, you are the native...).


----------



## Kajjo

bearded said:


> not sound like informal style


I agree, this is not informal style. I call this "rhetorical style" -- it is used when wanting to be impressive, to emphasise a point, to raise emotions, to be a good orator, often trying to be elavated. This is, why I receive it as sort of "spoken" language. Even when I read it in manuscripts, I start imagining it as spoken or listened to. The whole metric, intonation, stress simply only work when at least imagining it to be spoken, to be part of a speaker's presentation. 

This kind of rhetorics work with pauses, stress, emphasis. They do not really work out when reading the sentence in the quick scanning mode good readers usually register large text bodies. These passages work best when you imagine pauses and emphasis and that in itself requires spoken language -- even if it is written. 

I agree that this rhetorical figure is not rare. It is used in a lot of speeches and even some personal letters. It conveys a notion of vividness, of speaking rather than writing. It is able to emphasise points without using words of emphasis.



bearded said:


> ''Wir kamen ..zu einer Entscheidung. Einer inneren Entscheidung...''. Wer würde in alltäglichem Deutsch denn so sprechen?


People who are good in giving a speech or narration, who are fluent with language, who are well accustomed to the effect of stresses and pauses. 

Again, using a comma or dash would be perfectly fine in written German for these sentence. Writing a period instead maybe is supposed to transcribe the pauses, the felt interruption of flow, the intentional breaks. But why not use commas and dashes depending on the intensity of an intended break or pause? That's all I meant in #4.

After all, I will soften my rejection: 

+ It is an accepted rhetorical figure and useful for text you are supposed to feel like being spoken or transcripted. 

+ Seen as "grand ellipsis" it might be orthographically acceptable for rhetorically experienced writers.

+ Ellipses and factoring out common parts of a sentence are very typical and idiomatic concepts of German.


----------



## Perseas

I agree with Kajjo but I' d like to ask a question: Is there a main clause in the following text?

_Einer inneren Entscheidung, die wir dann natürlich auch miteinander besprachen, dass die einzige Art und Weise, wie Deutschland als Land gerettet werden kann, ist, indem es den Krieg verliert.
_
I think there isn't. Each proper sentence has a main clause and expresses a complete thought. Is that the case here? I don't think so. The main clause would be "Um die Zeit von Stalingrad kamen wir dann alle zu einer Entscheidung", if there wasn't the full stop at the end. This is the main reason, why the fragment above cannot be acceptable as a complete sentence (formal), in my opinion.


----------



## Kajjo

Perseas said:


> Is there a main clause in the following text?


Of course not. There is no main clause. Without the sentence before, this sentence would be meaningless. That's why I insisted on adding the previous sentence (see #2). 

_Um die Zeit von Stalingrad kamen wir dann alle zu einer Entscheidung. Einer inneren Entscheidung, die wir dann natürlich auch miteinander besprachen._

The second sentence can only be acceptable if 

(a) considered as "grand" ellipsis:

_[Wir kamen zu] einer inneren Entscheidung..._

(b) the period considered as "rhetorical" period with the meaning of a comma:

_Um die Zeit ... kamen wir dann alle zu einer Entscheidung, einer inneren Entscheidung..._

In case (b) the period would probably been used to emphasis the break or pause and to emphasis the next idea. Personally, I think this could be better done using a dash, but I have to admit that these kind of "rhetorial periods" are frequently used in this rhetorical figure.

In any case, the two sentence only work together and the main clause of the first sentence is governing the second sentence, too.

In normal writing I reject this puntuation, but in transcriptions or when intended to feel like spoken, it might be acceptable.


----------

