# أنف / خشم



## Muwahid

A Jordanian told me that these two words أنف / خشم are used interchangeably and there is no difference between them. Is this true? Is one more proper than the other?

شكرا


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## azeid

i'm not sure about the jordanian dialect but in in some places in 
Upper Egypt خشم = mouth.

 But خياشيم السمكة is fish's gills in Fusha


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## Masjeen

أنف= خشم
أنف= Fus7a (Extinct)
خشم= dialect​


azeid said:


> i'm not sure about the jordanian dialect but in in some places in
> upper egypt خشم = mouth.
> 
> But خياشيم السمكة is fish's gills in fusha


اجل شنو يعني خشم بالمصري؟​


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## WadiH

masjeen said:


> اجل شنو يعني خشم بالمصري؟​



يسمونه (منخار) أو (مناخير)ا​


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## Anatoli

Masjeen said:


> أنف= خشم
> أنف= Fus7a (Extinct)
> خشم= dialect​


Sorry, Masjeen, what is extinct in your opinion? Fus7a or أنف? If Fus-ha still exists, then أنف still means "nose", doesn't it?

I couldn't find any translation or reading for خشم


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## Faylasoof

Anatoli said:


> Sorry, Masjeen, what is extinct in your opinion? Fus7a or أنف? If Fus-ha still exists, then أنف still means "nose", doesn't it?
> 
> I couldn't find any translation or reading for خشم



I have to agree! Both Fus7a and  أنف are alive and well! 

 أنف = nose in Fus7a. 

 خشم = nose, vent, mouth - also in Fus7a, not just the dialects. (Wehr has it. Though Steingass defines it as the cartilage of the nose!).

خَیشوم (s) / خَیاشیم (pl) = nose; gills - also in Fus7a


 ... and then there are animal specific "noses"!

خطم = فناطیس / فنطيسة = snout, nose / muzzle of animal.

خرطوم =  مُلَمْلَمة = trunk (elephant)  - quite rare.

etc., etc.


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## WadiH

Anatoli said:


> Sorry, Masjeen, what is extinct in your opinion? Fus7a or أنف? If Fus-ha still exists, then أنف still means "nose", doesn't it?
> 
> I couldn't find any translation or reading for خشم



He means that it is extinct outside of Fus7a.

(I personally haven't heard it in any spoken dialect either, but I wouldn't be surprised if it still existed somewhere)


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## Xence

خشم is still used in many regions in Algeria, while other regions use an alteration of أنف which is نِيف . In my region, we rather say خَنّوفة , and I just discovered in Lisanu-l-Arab that it has an origin in Fus7a !


> وخَنَفَ الفرسُ يَخْنِفُ خَنْفاً، فهو خانِفٌ وخَنُوفٌ: أَمالَ أَنفَه إلى فارِسه.
> وخنَف الرجلُ بأَنفه: تكبّر فهو خانِف.
> والخانِفُ: الذي يشمخ بأَنفه من الكِبْر. يقال: رأَيته خانِفاً عنِّي بأَنفه.
> وخنَفَ بأَنفه عني: لواه.


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## WadiH

Which regions use which, Xence?


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## be.010

أنف is the form used in Damascus...
I've heard منخار and خشم used in other regions... خشم is especially common among bedouins...


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## chatsi66

خشم is common in Khaleeji dialects, منخار is comon in levantine dialects, مناخير  is totally Egyptian, while انف is fus7a and is still  used when MSA is used...: )

sorry, not ignorant of other Arab African countries, but really don't know...


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## Arabus

They are the same, but خشم > خيشوم tends to include the inner nasal cavity more than أنف, and this why it has apparently developed other meanings in some dialects. Always use  أنف in writing.


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## Xence

Wadi Hanifa said:


> Which regions use which, Xence?


Well, while خشم is understood in almost all the country, it's particularly used in Constantine (Algeria's third big city) and Annaba (fourth big city) and all the arounds.

نيف is more common in the Capital and most of the North regions (littoral zones), the West and the South West.

خنوفة is more used in Setif (fifth big city), M'sila and all the arounds. These regions are known to have been colonized by Arabic tribes (Banu Hilal, etc) in the 11th century.


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## Arabus

I wonder why the Arab League still hasn't produced a comprehensive atlas for all the spoken varieties. What are those people doing? Just hosting the great summits?

What makes me sad is that the dialects are evolving closer to MSA so fast, and many features are being lost. I wonder if all those features have been properly recorded. A look at the classification system used in e.g. "Ethnologue" makes me think I personally know  about the dialects more than those people do.


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## WadiH

If you tell this to those people, their answer would be "great!"  They view it as part of their job to make everyone speak MSA or something resembling it.  The people on the other side of the ideological spectrum can't be relied on either because they're only interested in dialects for political reasons, and their aim is to produce "standard dialects" for their respective states.

The only people who can produce such an atlas are academics, and the first step for them should be to travel far and wide with tape recorders and record as many conversations as possible (preferably involving older individuals).  Detailed study and classification can come later, but what's important now is to go out and collect the data.

Here's an example of what I'd like to see happen on a much larger scale:
saadsowayan.com


Xence said:


> Well, while خشم is understood in almost all the country, it's particularly used in Constantine (Algeria's third big city) and Annaba (fourth big city) and all the arounds.
> 
> نيف is more common in the Capital and most of the North regions (littoral zones), the West and the South West.
> 
> خنوفة is more used in Setif (fifth big city), M'sila and all the arounds. These regions are known to have been colonized by Arabic tribes (Banu Hilal, etc) in the 11th century.



Thanks.  Interesting that there is nothing based on ن-خ-ر.


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## Bruss04

Hey, about this link you have here, what exactly is it? I don't speak arabic myself (currently learning a dialect) but I am curious to know what it's all about, what do the recordings represent etc. Would be grateful if you could fill me in


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## WadiH

These are interviews conducted by a Saudi anthropologist named Saad Al-Sowayaan.  He interviewed some poets and _ruwaat _(reciters of bedouin lore) from various regions in Saudi Arabia.


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## Arabus

There is a way of doing this, by having people go through special interviews and fill out forms. This is how you get a real scientific study of the dialects. Westerners have done that, but I don't think they covered everything. And even if they covered everything, they have never produced a comprehensive comparative treatment of the dialects as a whole. So we're always guessing about the extent of a certain feature or certain word.

I've seen some comparative works on the dialects, but they were not comprehensive. Authors would arbitrarily pick some "marginal dialects" and compare them to each other. This is not very scientific. We need to establish dialect families and determine common characteristics for each family, and maybe even reconstruct a proto-dialect for each one. You can't do that without sufficient data.

From my observation, you can divide the dialects into at least three major families-- eastern, central, and western. The central including Levantine and the dialects spoken in Egypt and Sudan. These dialects have important isoglosses, like e.g. the present bi- prefix (biyiktub vs. yiktub), and from such isoglosses you can set boundaries and try to reconstruct proto-forms.

By the way, I forgot to say that أنف is not extinct like somebody said. This is the word for nose in Syrian Arabic (pronounced ʔǝnǝf, plural ʔnūf).​


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## Anatoli

Faylasoof said:


> خشم = nose, vent, mouth - also in Fus7a, not just the dialects. (Wehr has it. Though Steingass defines it as the cartilage of the nose!).
> ...
> خطم = فناطیس / فنطيسة = snout, nose / muzzle of animal.
> ...


I found خطم _khaTm _as "snout", "muzzle". Is خشم really used in the sense of human "nose" in MSA? Do you pronounce it as _khasham _or _khashm_? It seems to be a regional dialect too, since it means "nose" in the Gulf and 'mouth" in Sudan (found this on a blog). Doesn't it means "gills" in MSA?


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## Faylasoof

Anatoli said:


> ...Is خشم really used in the sense of human "nose" in MSA? Do you pronounce it as _khasham _or _khashm_? It seems to be a regional dialect too, since it means "nose" in the Gulf and 'mouth" in Sudan (found this on a blog). Doesn't it means "gills" in MSA?



Well, that is what I tried to say in my previous post (#7). Wehr and Steingass differ on this. The former lists it as nose / mouth /vent, while the latter says it is the cartilage in the (human?) nose. Pronounced in all lexicons as _khashm_.

... and as previously mentioned by myself and others, gills = خيشوم _khayshoom_.


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## JustLearningSK

i can confirm that خشم // kheshm is used for nose in the South Levantine Bedouin dialect. I use it with my friend all the time!


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## djara

خشم is the only word used for the human nose in Tunisian.
It also means حاسة الشم and أنفة


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## Hemza

djara said:


> خشم is the only word used for the human nose in Tunisian.
> It also means حاسة الشم and أنفة



You ignore نيف in Tunisia?

In Morocco there are three words: منخار, نيف and خشم


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## djara

Hemza said:


> You ignore نيف in Tunisia?


When we use it, it's always as a borrowing from Algerian and always in the figurative meaning (أنفة، عزة نفس)


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## Hemza

Thanks .


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## cherine

djara said:


> When we use it, it's always as a borrowing from Algerian and always in the figurative meaning (أنفة، عزة نفس)


In Egypt, we have enef إنِف for someone who's picky with food, or someone who's easily disgusted by things and/or people. Sometimes it's used with the meaning of مُتَكَبِّر, and there's even a verb yet2aanef يتآنف to act proud, or to act as if he's superior to others.


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