# Życie krótkie, sztuki długa



## jacquesvd

Dear all: does there exist in Polish a fixed translation for the Latin saying 'vita brevis, ars longa' which is generally used or does everybody translate it according to his own preference?

Is Życie krótkie, sztuki długa a correct translation  or not?
Thanks.


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## Massiege

"Życie krótkie, sztuka długa" is grammatically correct.

But it sounds weird...


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## Tunia

"Vita brevis, ars longa, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile"

Czyli: "Życie krótkie, sztuka długa, okazja ulotna, doświadczenie niebezpieczne, sąd niełatwy"


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## jacquesvd

Massiege said:


> "Życie krótkie, sztuka długa" is grammatically correct.
> 
> But it sounds weird...


Thanks, how would you then say it in idiomatic Polish?


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## jacquesvd

Tunia said:


> "Vita brevis, ars longa, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile"
> 
> Czyli: "Życie krótkie, sztuka długa, okazja ulotna, doświadczenie niebezpieczne, sąd niełatwy"


 
Thanks a lot!


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## Tunia

albo lepiej życie jest krótkie, sztuka jest długotrwała - tak brzmi najsensowniej  - the meaning is the same, it just sounds better, but you never know with Latin, sometimes transaltions are a bit obscure...


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## BezierCurve

One might even risk "życie krótkie, sztuka wieczna" ("... art [is] eternal"), which I heard a few times. I can't recollect any special idiomatic expressions for that.


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## Tunia

I've heard that one too. I suppose you can use any of them.


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## Massiege

I was exactly thinking about "długotrwały / a " . However I've never heard of this Latin saying...

Jacquesvd to make you understand : 

"długi / a " means "long" as refered to distance but also time (when you must wait for something or someone)

"długotrwały / a" means rather "time lasting", something that remains in history.


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## jacquesvd

Thanks a lot to you all: you're spoiling me.
 Now, why do you translate 'iudicium difficile' with 
"sąd niełatwy 'and not with 'sąd trudny'? Is this a free choice or are there rules. I noticed e.g. that when John-Paul II died, my magazine didn’t put as title ‘Jan Pawel II umarł, but Jan Pawel II nie  żyje


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## jacquesvd

Massiege said:


> I was exactly thinking about "długotrwały / a " . However I've never heard of this Latin saying...
> 
> Jacquesvd to make you understand :
> 
> "długi / a " means "long" as refered to distance but also time (when you must wait for something or someone)
> 
> "długotrwały / a" means rather "time lasting", something that remains in history.


 
Thanks again, I think I prefer 'długotrwała' because I feel it to be closer to the Latin original. 'Wieczna' is eternal and it could, of course, do but it  amplifies the original statement somewhat.


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## Tunia

jacquesvd said:


> Thanks a lot to you all: you're spoiling me.
> Now, why do you translate 'iudicium difficile' with
> "sąd niełatwy 'and not with 'sąd trudny'? Is this a free choice or are there rules. I noticed e.g. that when John-Paul II died, my magazine didn’t put as title ‘Jan Pawel II umarł, but Jan Pawel II nie  żyje



I think it is because it sounds more poetical. "Sąd trudny" sounds plain I would say. There are no rules here.

As for "nie żyje" - I think it is common to use that expression in newspapers. I have never seen "umarł" in a paper. "Nie żyje" is more dramatic. You would use either of them when talking about it though.


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## BezierCurve

I've noticed that phenomenon too. For some reason it is quite typical of Poles (and I believe we're not the only ones) to express thoughts through negation. 

While you can expect to read something like "Please remember to wash your hands" in toilets in other countries, you're very likely to find "Nie zapomnij o umyciu rak" in Poland.

You expect a "Keep off the grass" sign in Dublin and a "Nie deptac trawnikow" in Warsaw. 

I don't know how big the psychological implications of that are  , but there's quite a lot of negativity to be found in our semantics, it's only changed a bit lately.


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## Massiege

Because "trudny" and "niełatwy" are here synonyms. And both are adjectives. That's why "niełatwy" is written in one single word.
Besides "niełatwy" here sounds more litteral. More euphonic also than "trudny" which is far more common.
 
Regarding "Jan Pawel II nie żyje" instead of "Jan Pawel II umarł" it's quite an idiomatical question. We just say it this way. I guess the reasons should be found in the polish language history. And if I remember well that was the same in Latin, where they used to say it the same way about someone who died.


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## jacquesvd

BezierCurve said:


> I've noticed that phenomenon too. For some reason it is quite typical of Poles (and I believe we're not the only ones) to express thoughts through negation.
> 
> While you can expect to read something like "Please remember to wash your hands" in toilets in other countries, you're very likely to find "Nie zapomnij o umyciu rak" in Poland.
> 
> You expect a "Keep off the grass" sign in Dublin and a "Nie deptac trawnikow" in Warsaw.
> 
> I don't know how big the psychological implications of that are  , but there's quite a lot of negativity to be found in our semantics, it's only changed a bit lately.


 
@Tunia and BezierCurve: very interesting because in  some languages and I believe I can count English amongst them 'not easy' would be felt to be slightly less difficult than 'difficult'. At least in my native language and German there would be this shimmer of a difference: 'nicht leicht' being a trifle less difficult than 'schwer or schwierig'


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## jacquesvd

Massiege said:


> Because "trudny" and "niełatwy" are here synonyms. And both are adjectives. That's why "niełatwy" is written in one single word.
> Besides "niełatwy" here sounds more litteral. More euphonic also than "trudny" which is far more common.
> 
> Regarding "Jan Pawel II nie żyje" instead of "Jan Pawel II umarł" it's quite an idiomatical question. We just say it this way. I guess the reasons should be found in the polish language history. And if I remember well that was the same in Latin, where they used to say it the same way about someone who died.


 
I hope I'm not disturbing you with my questions but whilst I now understand that the idiomatic way of saying it is ' nie żyje", immediately after it happened, I wonder whether you still use that expression when you would refer to the death of John Paul II now:. 

Jan Pawel II umarł w roku 2005 or JPII nie żyje od cztery lat or JP umarł cztery lata temu or completely differently 'działo się śmierć Jana Pawla II  cztery lata temu' ?


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## Tunia

Jan Pawel II umarł w roku 2005 or JPII nie żyje od cztery lat or JP umarł cztery lata temu or completely differently 'działo się śmierć Jana Pawla II  cztery lata temu' ?
[/QUOTE]

The first one is fine (Jan Pawel II umarł w roku 2005)
JPII nie żyje od czterech lat.
JP umarł cztery lata temu - ok
The last one (działo się śmierć Jana Pawla II  cztery lata temu) is not Polish, I mean it is not grammatically correct. You would not use "działo się" in that context anyway.


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## BezierCurve

A note: it is true that you won't find many "Umarl X" among Polish headlines, but "Zmarl X" are quite popular there.

As for your question: it depends on what you want to empasise. If the event of his death is in focus, then go for "umarl/zmarl w roku 2005". If you want to talk more about what's changed/happened since then, use "nie zyje od czterech lat".

"Umarl cztery lata temu" goes well with both. 

 "Działo się śmierć Jana Pawla II cztery lata temu" seems to be incorrect or taken out of some context.

I don't think there is any serious difference between all of those anyway.


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## BezierCurve

> At least in my native language and German there would be this shimmer of a difference: 'nicht leicht' being a trifle less difficult than 'schwer or schwierig'


 
I see your point; yes, I believe it works like that in Polish too. 

_PS. Sorry for missing diacritics in my posts._


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## jacquesvd

Tunia said:


> Jan Pawel II umarł w roku 2005 or JPII nie żyje od cztery lat or JP umarł cztery lata temu or completely differently 'działo się śmierć Jana Pawla II cztery lata temu' ?


 
The first one is fine (Jan Pawel II umarł w roku 2005)
JPII nie żyje od czterech lat.
JP umarł cztery lata temu - ok
The last one (działo się śmierć Jana Pawla II cztery lata temu) is not Polish, I mean it is not grammatically correct. You would not use "działo się" in that context anyway.[/QUOTE]
OK. thanks, I understand  "działać" doesn't mean 'to happen' but how would you say 'JPII's  death occurred 4 years ago': Wydarzyło się śmierć Jana Pawla II cztery lata temu'?


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## Tunia

"działać" is not the word you wanted, it is "dziać się", "działać" means "to take acction", "act".
"śmierć JPII wydarzyła się 4 lata temu" - I think it is grammatically correct but it does not sound natural.


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## BezierCurve

"Działo się" (which comes from "dziać się"; "działać" means "to act, to work") is good for describing a process going over a period of time, for a specific event you need a perfective aspect, so, "wydarzylo sie" / "zdarzylo sie" would be more suitable.

However, in case of someone's death it won't work like that. We just don't say "wydarzyla sie smierc", (although it's grammaticaly fine). It has more to do with some fixed expressions than grammar here.
 
_EDIT: OK, I'll shut up rather than keep on doubling your posts, Tunia _


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## PawelBierut

Tunia said:


> "śmierć JPII wydarzyła się 4 lata temu" - I think it is grammatically correct but it does not sound natural.



You can say (in more poetical way) sth like that: _Śmierć JPII *nadeszła* w 2005 roku / 4 lata temu._


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## Tunia

PawelBierut said:


> You can say (in more poetical way) sth like that: _Śmierć JPII *nadeszła* w 2005 roku / 4 lata temu._



śmierć nadeszła cicho etc. sounds fine, but
"śmierć JPII nadeszła w 2005" sounds odd... I don't know. I don't like it. It doesn't sound right. I wouldn't say it that way...
Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not an expert. I find it unnatural though.


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## PawelBierut

I agree that it is more natural to use the construction:  _śmierć nadeszła + adjective._ However I don't find nothing odd in a question like:_ Kiedy nadeszła jego śmierć?_ So if the question sounds OK then (I think) the response like: _Jego śmierć nadeszła x lat temu. _sounds OK too. And I agree... the poetical way of speaking isn't natural


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## BezierCurve

> I agree that it is more natural to use the construction: _śmierć nadeszła + adverb._


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## Tunia

PawelBierut said:


> I agree that it is more natural to use the construction:  _śmierć nadeszła + adjective._ However I don't find nothing odd in a question like:_ Kiedy nadeszła jego śmierć?_ So if the question sounds OK then (I think) the response like: _Jego śmierć nadeszła x lat temu. _sounds OK too. And I agree... the poetical way of speaking isn't natural




I'd say "kiedy nadeszla jego smierc, swiat zamarl na chwile"
But I wouldn't connect it with a date; 
nadeszla + how? - fine
nadeszla + when - I have a feeling of something awkward going on


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## PawelBierut

BezierCurve said:


>


Thx Buzier...


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