# travelling people, gypsies, pikeys



## kathy_wylie

in the UK they can be known as gypsies. In France, they are the gens de voyage. 

In the UK a nymber of them have been coming and setting up home in their caravans in fields in the countryside, and in villages, almost anywhere. This might be considered a somewhat 'contrvoversial' topic, but in England it is definitely a problem, what with series of protests and complaints from habitants of these villages.

What's the situation on 'travelling people' in your country? Does the state, or government give them specific places to stay, or can they set up anywhere??


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## Benjy

gitan in french


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## jacinta

Controversial, to say the least!  Are you speaking of "the homeless", as they are called in the States?  This is a huge topic that I will leave to others for now.


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## Benjy

nope.. not the homeless as such. these are communities of people that live in caravannes and travel around setting up shop. the problem is that they seem to bring a lot of things with them such as theiving and generally making a mess of everything they touch before bogging off to squat on another piece of privately owned land. (in england) i will try and find some newspaper articles on it


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## fetchezlavache

_les gens du voyage_ benjy. that's a perfect correct phrase and often used. probably more than gitan i think.


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## Benjy

point taken. i always heard gitan. learn more than one new thing every day


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## cuchuflete

Jacinta,

They are not much known in the US. The old term was gypsy, but that carries a lot of negative baggage. A more pc term is the Romany or The Roma. There was a good article on these folks in The Economist a while ago.

Cuchu

http://www.economist.com/research/backgrounders/displaystory.cfm?Story_ID=S%26(X%20-RA%2B%22%0A

and this is from the March 23, 2005 edition of the same journal:



> *MICHAEL HOWARD, the Conservative leader, put on his best scowl this week to advertise his party's plans to be nastier to gypsies than the other parties. The Tories said they would think about repealing the Human Rights Act, whose European origins make it especially suspect, and would also change laws on planning and trespassing, forcing the unsightly itinerants to clear off. Where they might go was not discussed.…*



and here is something from May, 2001



> AT LEAST 6m Gypsies, or Roma, live in Europe, most of them in former communist countries or scattered around the Mediterranean. They are at the bottom of every socio-economic indicator: the poorest, the most unemployed, the least educated, the shortest-lived, the most welfare-dependent, the most imprisoned, and yes, the most segregated. In one indicator, they lead: they have the most children. In sum, they are a spectral third-world nation in Europe.


http://www.uwec.edu/geography/Ivogeler/w111/articles/roma.htm


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## jmx

kathy_wylie said:
			
		

> What's the situation on 'travelling people' in your country? Does the state, or government give them specific places to stay, or can they set up anywhere??


Not all 'travelling people' are gypsies, properly. In Spain, apart from a sizeable population of gypsies, there are the "mercheros", a people with similar ways of living but not originating from outside Spain. I'm sorry to say that I know very little about these people, the only one I can recall is "El Lute", a famous delinquent that became a writer.


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## walnut

As far as I know, in Italy Rom people are still a travelling people, while Sinti people tend to be a bit more permanent. It is not uncommon for permanent Sinti to have a double naming, a Sinti one and an italian one. The most famous italian Circus Artists families are traditionally Sinti.

Local administrations have to provide places for Rom and Sinti to stop and stay as long as they want to, the so called "campi nomadi" (nomad areas) provided with water and energy. Children have the right/duty to go to Italian schools while on Italian ground. That's the theory, the reality is that Campi Nomadi generally are ghettoes with impossible life quality level.

This is what I found googling:
– Rom (Romajy) have their roots in India, always were nomads and first came to Europe during the end of Middle Age. 
– The most part of them live in the Balcanic area, particularly in Romania.
– Their language takes its origins from Sanskrit, but they don't seem to have a written or an oral tradition.
– Some of them are Muslim, some of them Christian.

500.000 Rom and Sinti (another travelling population) were killed during the Nazi occupation of Europe. 
Wikipedia quotes an interesting paradox (Holocaust > Romany/Gypsies here)
"German anthropologists were forced to contend with the fact that Romany were descendants of the original Aryan invaders of India, who made their way back to Europe. Ironically, this made them no less Aryan than the German people itself..."


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## Cath.S.

I don't know if they make a mess. 
They sold us everlasting wicker baskets and I love the way they talk, it's soooo laid back.
I personally know a Rom lady called Sonia, and whenever her and her tribe are travelling through our town she comes and pays me a visit, she's very fat but her young daughters are stunning. They give me religious leaflets and lucky stones from les Saintes Maries de la Mer (a famous pilgrimage place where gypsies gather in the south of France). 

I love those people's freedom and the only thing I got to say against them is that they seem to drink quite a lot (but I'm generalizing).


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## Benjy

egueule said:
			
		

> I don't know if they make a mess.
> They sold us everlasting wicker baskets and I love the way they talk, it's soooo laid back.
> I personally know a Rom lady called Sonia, and whenever her and her tribe are travelling through our town she comes and pays me a visit, she's very fat but her young daughters are stunning. They give me religious leaflets and lucky stones from les Saintes Maries de la Mer (a famous pilgrimage place where gypsies gather in the south of France).
> 
> I love those people's freedom and the only thing I got to say against them is that they seem to drink quite a lot (but I'm generalizing).



it depends on the group. i should have been so general


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## Agnès E.

Benjy said:
			
		

> point taken. i always heard gitan. learn more than one new thing every day



"Gens du voyage" is the politically correct word used nowadays.

"Gitans" is the common word, especially in the Southern half of France. I remember that we also called them "caraques" in Provence when I was a child. I don't know the origin of this word. 
French also used to calling them "Bohémiens" in the Northen half of France, because most of the travelling people met there in the past came from central Europe. I don't know if it is still the case.

I know that they often call themselves... gitans! and that they are proud of it, it is not an insult at all.

Some families use to coming and paying me a visit each time they come to our village, because I keep some children clothes for them. I noticed once that they had drawn a special sign close to my gate to indicate the house was welcoming. They never bother us. They come twice a year and settle in a special place with power points. They stay one or two months and the children go to my daughter's school during that time.


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## katheter

'gens de voyage' is the only term so far, until i read benjy's post, i've heard for french 'gypsies'.  in nearly every town there's a sign post pointing towards a site on the outskirts of the town where these people can stay. It made me think. There seems to be sites marked out for them to stay... i never knew of any special sites for them to stay in Britain. It made me smile.


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## Sharon

cuchuflete said:
			
		

> Jacinta,
> 
> They are not much known in the US. The old term was gypsy, but that carries a lot of negative baggage.


   Well, we *did* have people a little similar to this for a couple of decades. Thousands of people travelling in caravans, setting up stalls or cardboard tables from which to peddle their wares. Perhaps performing a couple of odd jobs. They mainly worked only for money to buy food and to continue to travel. They had the same negative baggage; they were reputed to steal and be beggars, be none too clean, sell a couple of illicit substances and just have loose morals in general. They left a path of destruction in their wake. They disbanded after the death of Jerry Garcia on August 9, 1995. 
They were called "Deadheads."

 I need a miracle !!


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## charlie2

I am pretty sure there are no "travelling people" as the gypsies in Hong Kong it being such a small place. 

My understanding may not be representative of any Chinese. To me, except as depicted in American movies (thieves, beggars, etc.), gypsies are mysterious, romantic and tough people. They seem to think differently and live differently. (That's perhaps my definition of "romantic".) You have to be tough enough to do that. But don't ask me how I got that understanding.

The word "Bohémiens" carries a different connotation to us, I guess (Hong Kong and Taiwan. I don't know about Mainland China). I don't know the origin of this word but it has certainly got into the Chinese language. It is 波希米亞人 the people and 波希米亞 is the adjective used to describe someone who does not care for the earthly things that the average people would do. He travels, but never on a budget and only in the sense that he would go to a Greek island and stay there, painting and writing a book perhaps. It is apparently something what many yearn for.
It's raining hard now. I guess it would be two different worlds to stay in a caravan and a little house in Greece.


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## Apus

Over the years I have collected over 200 names from most countries for Gypsies.(I miss Ukrainian, Russian and Baltic names). Many of their names are from their supposed origin (Gypsies...) but most of their designations are from their occupations (Vanniers, Tinkers etc.) _Travelling people _ and _gens du voyage_ are recently coined names meant to be politically correct. 
Gypsies opted to call themselves _Roms_ at their first congress in 1971, a shortened form of _Romani_. The name simply reflects the Romanian origin of most European Gypsies, notwithstanding the other etymologies given to that name.


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## don maico

Do you hate them?It appears people here in the UK do. They are seen as layabouts who dont pay ANY taxes, screw the system as much as they can claiming whatever benefits they can. They steal, they rob and leave filthy messes everywhere they go or at least thats what I am told. I am sure there is some truth in it but as always these things get wildly exagerated . I met a few of these guys and found them perfectly reasonable, they just didnt want to lead a conventional lifestyle, ie bricks and mortar dwellings, and had a need to travel. My recipe is simple: provide these guys with the sites they need to park theis caravans but insist they follow the laws of the land and pay their taxes . Otherwise impound their vehicles. The reason I started this thread is because across Europe gypsies are not liked so I wonder what your take of them is what opyu think the answer is?
Please excuse my typonese nad = and


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## fenixpollo

What is a pikey? (I have to know what it is if you want me to tell you whether I hate it or not)


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## Dr. Quizá

Well, I haven't had any problems with gypsies, but I think most Spaniards think exactly the same as you despite one of Spain's most typical cultural movements (flamenco) is even much more bounded to gypsies than hip-hop to urban black people from the USA.


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## .   1

fenixpollo said:


> What is a pikey? (I have to know what it is if you want me to tell you whether I hate it or not)


A pikey is an Irish or perhaps English term for gypsy.

.,,


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## Hakro

don maico said:


> They are seen as layabouts who dont pay ANY taxes, screw the system as much as they can claiming whatever benefits they can. They steal, they rob and leave filthy messes everywhere they go or at least thats what I am told.


In Finland we have gypsies who are doing exactly what Don Maico said. Only it's illegal to say it aloud.


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## don maico

fenixpollo said:


> What is a pikey? (I have to know what it is if you want me to tell you whether I hate it or not)


Pikey is a euphamism for gypsey. most of them have settled but some have not


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## don maico

Dr. Quizá said:


> Well, I haven't had any problems with gypsies, but I think most Spaniards think exactly the same as you despite one of Spain's most typical cultural movements (flamenco) is even much more bounded to gypsies than hip-hop to urban black people from the USA.


i personally dont have a problem with them as many do here, so I am asking what , if any, is the problem in your country with them?And why?


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## luis masci

don maico said:


> i personally dont have a problem with them as many do here, so I am asking what , if any, is the problem in your country with them?And why?


Don Maico, el rechazo de la gente en nuestro país (te recuerdo me estoy refiriendo a tu país y el mío, es decir Argentina) hacia los gitanos es similar al que vos describís en Inglaterra y los motivos de ello son también los mismos.
En estos días hay muchos menos gitanos de los que solía haber cuando yo era chico. Los pocos que quedan, si bien mantienen su peculiar manera de vivir, están radicados en casas y ya no se ven en campamentos (al menos en grandes ciudades como ésta).
Pero recuerdo que ellos solían acampar cerca de mi casa, en un gran descampado que había en el barrio. Se quedaban por 2 o 3 meses y luego partían. Los chicos sentíamos recelo hacia ellos, porque se decía que robaban (entre otras cosas claro está) niños. 
Recuerdo también lo poco felices que se sentían los vecinos (especialmente los más cercanos al campamento) ya que los gitanos les pedían agua, comida, les querían vender baratijas y adivinar la suerte.
Pero eso ya forma parte del pasado, actualmente suelo ver de vez en cuando algunas gitanas en el centro de la ciudad (reconocibles por sus clásicos atuendos) pero ya ni siquiera tratan de adivinar la suerte.


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## Benjy

This story and especially the comments at the end say a lot about the british attitude towards them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...n_page_id=1770&ct=5&expand=true#StartComments

edit..you need to scroll up to read the story.


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## don maico

I brought this thread forward because of a thread I had read on another forum which basically described the pikey community as scum, vermin & low life. At first I thought this a racist attitude born out of ignorance but as i read through the posts it became obvious that many have a real grievance. Basically there are some travellers ( another term for the gypsie pikey)who behave in  a very antisocial manner thieving whatever they can from local; communities and fouling whichever encampment they choose to site their trailers( caravans)The ecampments are usually  private properties such as farmland. It needs to be stressed that ist only SOME who behave in this way. Unfortunately they are all bieng tarred with the same brush and are ,thus, all labeled Pikey scumbags. I have met  a few myself who were perfectly reasonable leading normal , if somewhat unconventional, lives .
I know gypsies have been and are detested in several countries even in Spain where many live in caves( Andalucia).Hitler tried to get them exterminated and in east European countries they are often blamed for whatever ills. My belief is that whenever a group is despised they'll adopot a negative attitude as they see no reason for doing otherwise if they are going to be met by negativity  anyway so adopting a more open minded attitude would seem the answer.Maybe a carrot and stick approach


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## don maico

luis masci said:


> Don Maico, el rechazo de la gente en nuestro país (te recuerdo me estoy refiriendo a tu país y el mío, es decir Argentina) hacia los gitanos es similar al que vos describís en Inglaterra y los motivos de ello son también los mismos.
> En estos días hay muchos menos gitanos de los que solía haber cuando yo era chico. Los pocos que quedan, si bien mantienen su peculiar manera de vivir, están radicados en casas y ya no se ven en campamentos (al menos en grandes ciudades como ésta).
> Pero recuerdo que ellos solían acampar cerca de mi casa, en un gran descampado que había en el barrio. Se quedaban por 2 o 3 meses y luego partían. Los chicos sentíamos recelo hacia ellos, porque se decía que robaban (entre otras cosas claro está) niños.
> Recuerdo también lo poco felices que se sentían los vecinos (especialmente los más cercanos al campamento) ya que los gitanos les pedían agua, comida, les querían vender baratijas y adivinar la suerte.
> Pero eso ya forma parte del pasado, actualmente suelo ver de vez en cuando algunas gitanas en el centro de la ciudad (reconocibles por sus clásicos atuendos) pero ya ni siquiera tratan de adivinar la suerte.



Verdaderamnteme acuerdo poco de la Argentina pues emigre en 1969 cuando era chico.El modo de vivir del gitano siempre sera contencioso porque le gente normal sospechan de ellos que no pagan impustos o que roban o se comportan de modo muy antisocial.
el feverro projimo regreso al pais de mi nacimiento para una visita - sera la tercera


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## ireney

don maico I think that is what is called a vicious circle. 

These people are despised, and, in the case of Greece, illiterate (the majority of them) and overlooked by the state and so on and so forth.

They in turn, having no regular income etc turn to illegal activities. Not having a place to live means that they live in camps where none of what we consider basic (running water, electricity etc) exist. For several reasons, many of them turn nasty.

This gives reasons to some to say "See? I am not a bigot! They ARE filthy/criminals/whatever" and so on and so forth.

Yes, I personally want to ask some Roma parents why is it logical to have a golden chains and send their children to sell tissues or beg on the streets (In case you ask, I have seen parents with golden chains and teeth gathering the poor souls up).
However, since we (the non Roma, _gadje_ I think they call us -not a nice word) i) complain about the way they act sometimes but do NOT think Hitler was right ii) consider ourselves better educated and so on and so forth than the Roma, it is us who should try to make things better.

Only a fool would believe that they *want* to live in horrible conditions.


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## don maico

ireney said:


> don maico I think that is what is called a vicious circle.
> 
> These people are despised, and, in the case of Greece, illiterate (the majority of them) and overlooked by the state and so on and so forth.
> 
> They in turn, having no regular income etc turn to illegal activities. Not having a place to live means that they live in camps where none of what we consider basic (running water, electricity etc) exist. For several reasons, many of them turn nasty.
> 
> This gives reasons to some to say "See? I am not a bigot! They ARE filthy/criminals/whatever" and so on and so forth.
> 
> Yes, I personally want to ask some Roma parents why is it logical to have a golden chains and send their children to sell tissues or beg on the streets (In case you ask, I have seen parents with golden chains and teeth gathering the poor souls up).
> However, since we (the non Roma, _gadje_ I think they call us -not a nice word) i) complain about the way they act sometimes but do NOT think Hitler was right ii) consider ourselves better educated and so on and so forth than the Roma, it is us who should try to make things better.
> 
> Only a fool would believe that they *want* to live in horrible conditions.


I agree ireney. We should take the first positive stepsorovide them wikth the sites they require with whatver facilties are necessary including schoolling but in return we must insist they follow the laws of the land. Unfortunately many over here would think that is conceding too much to them. They just want them to disappear which of course they wont.

Interesting read here http://www.goodmagic.com/carny/gypsies.htm


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## .   1

ireney said:


> don maico I think that is what is called a vicious circle.
> 
> Only a fool would believe that they *want* to live in horrible conditions.


Quite right and well said.
This is often the problem when questions such as this are framed.
The direction of the problem is not precise.
Were pikeys to be treated as people and not as a group known as pikeys perhaps there would be less anger and resentment on both sides of the gold tooth.
Do pikeys do more damage to the environment than the greedy pigs pounding around in their useless Sports Utility Vehicles burning irreplaceable fossil fuel just so they can get their rocks off and act macho?
Do pikeys cause more social disharmony than parents who slap their own children to make them smile for the photograph that establishes how wonderful they are as parents?
Do pikeys steal more than multinational corporations from the first world defiling the rights of workers in every country in the world?
What is the half-life of an abandoned pikey campsite as compared with the half life of of a broken nuclear reactor?
It is easy to slag the poor when you are rich.

.,,


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## don maico

There is a great deal of classicism and snobbery at play here. Some members of the so called middle class( and it does appear to be mostly them) seem to love to have a social group they can look down on and despise. What perplexed me about the forum I found the thread in was that the rules state quite clearly that racist comments wont be tolerated but somehow its perfectly ok to make negative comments about certain social groups, Chavs are another favourite target.
Here's  a wikipedia defintion of pikey:
Etymology

Traditionally the word referred to Gypsies or vagrants. The first recorded use was in 1847 [1]. Though sources agree that the word derives from "pike" [2] [3], the Bloomsbury Dictionary of Contemporary Slang (which gives pikie as an alternative spelling) indicates that the "precise origins of these terms (and the American term piker) [are] unclear because of the convergence of two similar senses of pike" [4]: the first is turnpike, a road on which a toll is collected; the second is an archaic British English verb meaning to depart or travel.
[edit]
Contemporary usage


In recent years, the definition has become looser and is sometimes used to refer to a wide section of the (generally urban) underclass of the country, particularly those on whom the lower middle classes look down, or merely a person of any social class who "lives on the cheap". When used to refer to either Irish Travellers or Gypsies, it is considered to have racist connotations; even when it refers to others, many people still consider it to be derogatory and offensive. Pikey is also commonly used as a synonym of chav, a word which is regarded as having classist rather than racist overtones. "Pikey" is equally frequently used as an adjective, as in "he lives on a pikey estate", "those clothes look pikey" or "(name of cheap shop, e.g. one where goods are always sold for one pound) is a pikey shop".
Negative British attitudes towards "pikeys" (in this case meaning Irish Travellers) were a running joke in the 2000 Guy Ritchie film Snatch, making the line "I fucking hate pikeys" (often said with a thick accent) one of many oft-quoted lines amongst the film's fans. For his role in the film, actor Brad Pitt convincingly learned how to speak fluent "pikey" (actually an unintelligible patois used for comic effect).
[edit]
_Do pikeys do more damage to the environment than the greedy pigs pounding around in their useless Sports Utility Vehicles burning irreplaceable fossil fuel just so they can get their rocks off and act macho?
_
 bTW many travallers do drive them as they spend a great deal of their time pulling caravans


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## MonsieurAquilone

In french we can also call gypsies : Tsiganes.


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## .   1

don maico said:


> _Do pikeys do more damage to the environment than the greedy pigs pounding around in their useless Sports Utility Vehicles burning irreplaceable fossil fuel just so they can get their rocks off and act macho?_
> 
> bTW many travallers do drive them as they spend a great deal of their time pulling caravans


Point taken.
Damn.  There goes one more point of comparative defence for the travelling class.

.,,


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## don maico

. said:


> Point taken.
> Damn.  There goes one more point of comparative defence for the travelling class.
> 
> .,,


There is a vital difference though. Like farmers they depend on sturdy 4x4 sto get them around.The middle classes buy them in order to look cool, show off their "success" and  intimidate other motorists. Mothers often use them on school runs which is a total disgrace.


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## luis masci

Michael, I hope you don’t mind I did some corrections in your Spanish paragraph.
I just want helping you get a better communication with your fellow citizens when you visit Argentina. 


don maico said:


> Verdaderamntemeverdaderamente, me acuerdo poco de la Argentina pues emigre en 1969 cuando era chico.El modo de vivir del gitano siempre sera contencioso porque le gente normal sospechan sospecha deque ellos no pagan impustos impuestos o que roban o se comportan de modo muy antisocial.
> el feverro projimo En febrero próximo regreso al pais de mi nacimiento para una visita - sera la tercera


Bienvenido entonces  
Let me tell a small story. The gypsies used to have several dogs with them in the camp and they, after a while living there, interpreted the camp and surrounding area as their territory. One day, I passed riding my bicycle in the street aside the camp, and 3 or 4 dogs were chasing me. I ran away rapidly, however one of the dogs hurt my leg. 
As in that time the “rabia” disease (sorry I don’t know how it’s called in English) was still a real threat, my poor father had going to the camp every week during 40 days watching the health of the dogs. 
He used to come back home with some baubles that he had bought to the gypsies. My mom quarreled adducing he spent money in such useless things.
I think he bought those things in order to maintain a good relation with them and so continue watching the dogs without problems. 

----------------------------------------------------------------
Remember I’m only a Spanish speaker, so corrections will be always welcome.


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## fenixpollo

Some suggestions for you, Luis (for when don maico visits) 


luis masci said:


> Michael, I hope you don’t mind -- I made some corrections to your Spanish paragraph.
> I just want to help you get a better communication with your fellow citizens when you visit Argentina.
> 
> Let me tell a small story. The gypsies used to have several dogs with them in the camp and they, after a while living there, thought of the camp and surrounding area as their territory. One day, I passed riding my bicycle in the street beside the camp, and 3 or 4 dogs were chasing me. I ran away rapidly, however one of the dogs hurt my leg.
> As in that time the “rabia” disease (rabies) was still a real threat, my poor father had to go to the camp every week for 40 days watching the health of the dogs.
> He used to come back home with some baubles that he had bought from the gypsies. My mom quarreled with him, saying he spent money on such useless things.
> I think he bought those things in order to maintain a good relation with them and so continue watching the dogs without problems.


 That wasn't a problem with *Gypsy* dogs, Luis -- _all_ dogs think that the territory where they live is their territory.  And not only Gypsy dogs have rabies. Incidentally, Luis.... did you get sick?


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## luis masci

Fénix, antes que nada, muchas gracias por el tiempo que te tomaste para hacerme las correcciones.  


fenixpollo said:


> Incidentally, Luis.... did you get sick?


No, no me enfermé a Dios gracias; y ese no fue el único perro que me mordió. Al menos fueron 10 o más en diferentes episodios a lo largo de mi niñez. Ya sea porque fui un chico muy inquieto o porque mis vecinos dejaban sus perros en la calle. 
Pero no me extenderé más. No vale la pena, porque sospecho que ya caerá Chasca haciendo gala de su poder de censura y clasificando este mensaje como “off topic” o algo así.


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## robbie_SWE

Ok, let me start off by saying that I really do feel for the gypsies and their situation. But as a native of Romania, I know exactly how they live and I know why they get such a bad reputation. 

1. As it was pointed out in an earlier post (think it was Ireney), it's hard to take them seriously when they clearly contradict themselves. "Sir, can you please give me some money, I'm starving" is what they usually say in their golden necklaces and ruby rings. How am I supposed to react to this?? 

2. They keep their children at home instead of sending them off to school. The children are forced to go out and beg for money instead. 

4. The Romanian government has tried many times (their efforts can be discussed, because they could have done a whole lot more) to help them send their children to school free of cost. Some have taken the chance, but most haven't. 

5. They form gangs and terrorize people. Statistically crime is higher in the gypsy community. 

Of course there are probably thousands of gypsies who have made it in the world. In Romania there are gypsies who have university degrees, who have become professors and entertainers. But the majority are still not doing anything to change their reality. How is it so that many different countries in Europe have the same opinion about the gypsies if there isn't an ounce of truth?? 

 robbie


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## don maico

luis masci said:


> Fénix, antes que nada, muchas gracias por el tiempo que te tomaste para hacerme las correcciones.
> 
> No, no me enfermé a Dios gracias; y ese no fue el único perro que me mordió. Al menos fueron 10 o más en diferentes episodios a lo largo de mi niñez. Ya sea porque fui un chico muy inquieto o porque mis vecinos dejaban sus perros en la calle.
> Pero no me extenderé más. No vale la pena, porque sospecho que ya caerá Chasca haciendo gala de su poder de censura y clasificando este mensaje como “off topic” o algo así.



En realidad si pasara aqui los perros serian detruidos. Nunca se ve perros en la calle sin los dueños. Los gitanos lo saben asi ques sus perros siempre estan atados a algo.


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## luis masci

don maico said:


> En realidad si pasara aqui los perros serian detruidos. Nunca se ve perros en la calle sin los dueños. Los gitanos lo saben asi ques sus perros siempre estan atados a algo.


Claro Don Maico, lo que pasa es que nuestro país (el de ambos) es mucho más desorganizado e improvisado que el tuyo (del que yo no formo parte).
Tenlo en cuenta para que no te sorprendas demasiado el próximo febrero.


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## ireney

OK, I hate to sound rude and I understand how a person that understands English but doesn't feel confident enough to write in English may very well want to participate in a discussion in English by writing in Spanish but I have a slight problem. I don't know Spanish. 

Would you mind terribly if I asked you for a summary of your opinions in English even if it's  in filled with mistakes? I don't think anyone would care for it in this section, since it is about cultural discussion. I for one am not interested in the mistakes one makes when it is the context that is of most importance if he/she can't help it (any mistakes _I_ make on the other hand should be dealt with severity!!!)  but I feel like there's a discussion within the discussion in which I cannot participate even as a "watcher"  .


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## beclija

robbie_SWE said:


> 5. They form gangs and terrorize people. Statistically crime is higher in the gypsy community.


The way your formulate I think it can be misunderstood. Do you mean "gypsies are on average more likely to be criminal" - which is surely true, but than so are people with less education, underclass, or whatever - if the statistics were to have any content, you would have to limit the comparison with non-Gypsies of the _same socio-economic situation _- and than I guess the difference would diminish. And it does get a classy, not to say snobbish thing, as ,.. and don maico have pointed out.

Or do you mean that crime is higher in Roma neighbourhoods? In that case, I politely doubt that that is so: I was recently talking with a guy from Bucarest (How is it spelt in English?) who moved into a flat in a gypsy neighbourhood. He was rather worried at first, but now he says it's safer than anywhere else in the city as the "don't operate in the area" and it would be unimaginable for them to touch the belongings of a neighbour (or guest, for that matter).

To be honest, I don't know the situation in Romania too well, but in Austria (in Burgenland there is a relatively large group of resident Roma), although the government _officially _encouraged, or rather demanded, that Gypsy children go to school, local parents would protest against their children sharing a school with Gypsies and Roma children would be bullied against. Now that does not exactly encourage you to send your children to school, does it? Also, Roma and Sinti have only been granted the status of a recognized minority a little more than ten years ago.


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## .   1

luis masci said:


> As in that time the “rabia” disease (sorry I don’t know how it’s called in English) was still a real threat, my poor father had going to the camp every week during 40 days watching the health of the dogs.


I think that the word you seek is 'rabies'.
This is one wonderful thing about living on a big island.  No rabies.
Gypsies do not exist down here.  
We do have the grey army but a bunch of retired people in mobile homes and caravans have yet to terrorise anybody except their grandkids.
Gyppo was part of the lingo as an insult but this has passed as has gyp meaning to swindle.

.,,


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## beclija

I'll try, though my Spanish is horrible:

_No, no me enfermé a Dios gracias; y ese no fue el único perro que me mordió. Al menos fueron 10 o más en diferentes episodios a lo largo de mi niñez. Ya sea porque fui un chico muy inquieto o porque mis vecinos dejaban sus perros en la calle.
Pero no me extenderé más. No vale la pena, porque sospecho que ya caerá Chasca haciendo gala de su poder de censura y clasificando este mensaje como “off topic” o algo así._

No, I didn't get sick, thanks god. And it wasn't the only time a dog has bitten me. It happened at least ten times at different occasions all across my childhood. It was probably because i was a very restless boy or because my neighbours kept their dogs in the street. 
But I won't extend any more on this. It's not worth the pain, because I suspect (something I don't quite understand, but it looks like "someone might use their power to classify this message as "Off topic" or something like that")

_
En realidad si pasara aqui los perros serian detruidos. Nunca se ve perros en la calle sin los dueños. Los gitanos lo saben asi ques sus perros siempre estan atados a algo._

Actually, if it would happen here, the dogs would be killed. You never see dogs in the street without (...). The Gypsies here know it and their dogs are always tied to something._


Claro Don Maico, lo que pasa es que nuestro país (el de ambos) es mucho más desorganizado e improvisado que el tuyo (del que yo no formo parte).
Tenlo en cuenta para que no te sorprendas demasiado el próximo febrero._

Of course, Don Maico, it is that our country (the one of both of us) is much more unorganized and improvised than yours (which I don't form a part of). 
Keep that in mind in order not to be too surprised when you come next February.

(It might be wrong in points, but I'm sure I got the core of it).


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## luis masci

beclija said:


> (It might be wrong in points, but I'm sure I got the core of it).


Thank you very much Beclija, yes you have made an excellent translation.  
Ireney, I’m sorry if you feel disturbed because some of us write Spanish, but I understand Cultural Forum is a multilingual site and here is allowed any language. Besides I address in Spanish only to people I know can understand it and about themes that mainly concern them. 
Writing Spanish is both, easier and faster for me, plus it’s the language which I less mistakes make.


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## MarcB

Although there are many names for them and some act as tribal names these are
The most important tribal names of the Gypsies Roma (despite the similarity has nothing to do with Romanian) are: Lovara, Churara, Kalderash and Manush/Sinti.
Manush/Sinti, Manush means man, person  in Romanes=their language are usually settled people most still speak Romanes some do not. Lovara from Romanes loveh means money are traditionally horse traders. Kalderash from a Romanian(Romania) word for caldron, they were coppersmiths. And Churara from Romanes churi=knife, they worked in making kitchen utensils. They spread from Eastern Turkistan (western China) across the Middle East ,Africa Europe and the Americas. There are also other groups of travelers who are not ethnic Roma but are sometimes called such by outsiders. The largest settled population of Roma is in the Shuto Orizari district of Skopje in Macedonia.
 
Now on to the Rom of the US. They have come to the US from all geographical areas. Some still speak Romanes others from England, Spain and other places do not.
They are a hidden or invisible minority. They number an estimated 1 million which makes them one of our smaller minorities. They do not usually identify themselves and since the US has many minorities they may be taken for other groups. In Romanes they have parnoh white and kaloh black. The whites look more like the general population they were mixed in Europe before arriving in the US. The kaloh black have more of an Indian sub continental appearance. Parnoh and Kaloh are similar to words from Indian languages. The parnoh are often not regognized as different physically from the majority population and the kaloh are often mistaken for African- America mixed people Hispanics and Native Americans as well as Desi (Asian Indians). The Lovara and others have gone from buying sick and well horses nursing them back to health and selling them for a profit, to buying and selling used cars. Some of them have become economically middle class or wealthy. They travel from the Northeast to the Southeast and from there to the Southwest in winter. Many Kalderasha women and others are store front psychics (modern fortune tellers). The men often find work in auto repair or gas stations. The Churara and others often live by their wits and frequent resort areas and sell souvenirs and work to get money from tourists. They often give their names/aliases to outsiders as typically English names. A family or a Kumpania (group that lives/ travels together, larger than a family) will rent apartments in poor neighborhoods. When they move on another group will take it over and use the same name as if there were no change. Many are involved in trading jewelry. Of course others do not fit the typical professions. The elderly are usually illiterate, the youth have some literacy and less than 1% attend the university.
The average American either has never met or seen one or is not aware that they have.
Americans know the stereotypes found in Europe and would probably agree with them without having experienced any of them. People here either believe they are thieves or have a romantic view of them from literature etc. In fact they are somewhere in between.
On the few occasions when a Rom is accused of a crime the newspapers and sometimes TV emphasize their Gypsy heritage. Otherwise most Americans are not aware of their presence in the US.


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## robbie_SWE

beclija said:


> The way your formulate I think it can be misunderstood. Do you mean "gypsies are on average more likely to be criminal" - which is surely true, but than so are people with less education, underclass, or whatever - if the statistics were to have any content, you would have to limit the comparison with non-Gypsies of the _same socio-economic situation _- and than I guess the difference would diminish. And it does get a classy, not to say snobbish thing, as ,.. and don maico have pointed out.
> 
> Or do you mean that crime is higher in Roma neighbourhoods? In that case, I politely doubt that that is so: I was recently talking with a guy from Bucarest (How is it spelt in English?) who moved into a flat in a gypsy neighbourhood. He was rather worried at first, but now he says it's safer than anywhere else in the city as the "don't operate in the area" and it would be unimaginable for them to touch the belongings of a neighbour (or guest, for that matter).
> 
> To be honest, I don't know the situation in Romania too well, but in Austria (in Burgenland there is a relatively large group of resident Roma), although the government _officially _encouraged, or rather demanded, that Gypsy children go to school, local parents would protest against their children sharing a school with Gypsies and Roma children would be bullied against. Now that does not exactly encourage you to send your children to school, does it? Also, Roma and Sinti have only been granted the status of a recognized minority a little more than ten years ago.


 
I totally agree with you. My comment was a bit vague. I was referring to the gypsy community as a group that has socio-economic and educational problems that leads to a higher crime rate.

 robbie


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## don maico

Pikeys will survive whichever way they can, but it needs to be remebered that they have been at the bottom of the social scale ever since they came into being and havent had the privilidges most of the rest of us have. They scrape a living doing jobs most of us would avoid. Some are rogues most are not, some still live in caravans whilst others live in concil houses on "pikey estates"Our local flower seller is a well known pikey and perfectly harmless she is too.Horsham where I use to live , had a bloke called George Paul who sold the Evening Argus( newspaper),a rather rough looking individual whose hygiene wasnt up to much but again was perfectly harmless. Unfortunately kids sometimes picked on him partly because there were all sorts of vile rumours about him sleeping with his sister and having a house full of chicken running around. One of the local tree surgeons, a guy called Bill Jones, use to drive around in a truck full of Jack Russells , typical Pikey was he- you could never pin him down and he would just turn up whenever it took his fancy to do the work he thought necessary, but he was most genuine ,helpful, worked hard AND knowledgeable too about rural matters.
I was talking to my neighbour about pikeys and he himself has known a few in his time. He said that they are no different to any other social group in that most are ok, some are bad apples and some good as gold.He said if you go in with the right attitude and they like you they'll do anything for you because they themselves like to be liked and accepted, but if you give them grief they will respond in the same way.They have their traditions and their own culture and there is no way they are going to forsake those just to "fit in" with what we deam "acceptable"Just think what happened to the indigenous populations of Australia and the USA ,a once proud people, many of them now living in a perpetual drunken stupor because what they had no longer exists and their lives for them has lost any meaning
What I dislike  is all the stereotyping scapegoating and the jumping on the bandwagon that goes on which is symptomatic of ignorance and an unwillingness to see how others live with an open mind. This is precisely the attitde that has infested so many countries where there is a mix of peoples such as South Africa and pre war Germany/Poland and where some are blamed for any problems that may exist whilst others are treated like rats simply for being different.


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## don maico

This post shows the level of antipikeyism that exist in the UK today. Rather reminiscent of prewar Germany I would say How long before violenbt acts take place I wonder?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pikey&page=1


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## beclija

Now that is heavy. Not that everything was fine here and in places around - racism against Gypsies is widespread and generally not recieved as such even by people who are quite sensitive otherwise. There was an attempt to build a wall between the Gypsy quarter and the rest of the town somewhere in Czech Republic (read: a few dozen miles from here) recently - I don't remember if it went through in the end. And I've written above about parents protesting against their children going to the same schools as Gypsies. Still, I wouldn't have expected something like this, least of all in Britain. 

By the way, I've heard rumours that the British immigration policy explicitly excludes Roma from the otherwise relatively lax policies towards citizens of some Eastern European countries. The story I heard (which was before Czech Republic joined the EU, but they didn't need visa for the UK even then) is that a guy who was supposed to travel to Britain on business was sent off the airplane (ticket already payed, of course) on no other grounds than his Gypsy looks. Do you know anything about this?


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## don maico

beclija said:


> Now that is heavy. Not that everything was fine here and in places around - racism against Gypsies is widespread and generally not recieved as such even by people who are quite sensitive otherwise. There was an attempt to build a wall between the Gypsy quarter and the rest of the town somewhere in Czech Republic (read: a few dozen miles from here) recently - I don't remember if it went through in the end. And I've written above about parents protesting against their children going to the same schools as Gypsies. Still, I wouldn't have expected something like this, least of all in Britain.
> 
> By the way, I've heard rumours that the British immigration policy explicitly excludes Roma from the otherwise relatively lax policies towards citizens of some Eastern European countries. The story I heard (which was before Czech Republic joined the EU, but they didn't need visa for the UK even then) is that a guy who was supposed to travel to Britain on business was sent off the airplane (ticket already payed, of course) on no other grounds than his Gypsy looks. Do you know anything about this?



I have not heard this rumour but wouldnt be surprised by it though. Having said that increase immigration is becoming more and more unpopular anyway. We seem to be getting them from  anywhere at the moment and  with many of them not speaking English its becoming a bit of a nightnmare from our authorities.
Anyway back to topic I accept that apkikeys dont always help their case with various antisocia; acts but the mainsteram reaction its nevertheless appaling. I have met several pikeys in my time and found them perfectly reasonable people. Not terribly bright or educated but reasonable nevertheless so this hostility is alarming ot say the least. I can well see casualties in the near future


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## beclija

MarcB said:


> (...)They spread from *Eastern Turkistan* (western China) across the Middle East ,Africa Europe and the Americas. (...)


Sorry I only saw this now, but where did you get this information from? As far as I know, the exact history of their migrations is unknown, but it is generally agreed that they originated from *Northern India*, most obviously for linguistic reasons (their language is related to Indic languages from that area). Of course there are some Turkic words as well, but it seems more natural that these have come into the language in the Middle East and the Osmanian Empire.


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## MarcB

beclija said:


> Sorry I only saw this now, but where did you get this information from? As far as I know, the exact history of their migrations is unknown, but it is generally agreed that they originated from *Northern India*, most obviously for linguistic reasons (their language is related to Indic languages from that area). Of course there are some Turkic words as well, but it seems more natural that these have come into the language in the Middle East and the Osmanian Empire.


I also saw your post late. That statement I realize now was not clear, it does not explain their origins but where they can be found. By the way Turkic words are found among them and Turks east of the Middle East also.


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