# Women in your country - El papel de la mujer en distintos países



## Cristina Moreno

Hello everybody!
I would like to know how women are treated in your country, if they are equal to men (I know that that is becoming more and more common -thank God!- but I'm from Lebanon where women, in some villages, are still considered unequal to men), how much liberty they're given and if there is any description of "the ideal woman in your country".
I would very much appreciate your participation in this discussion to reveal the status of women all around the world.

Thank you


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## John Mirra

In America, women are more or less considered equal to men. That is, they're _theoretically_ equal to men. In truth, they are largely treated like equals to men... but things still aren't quite right here, and now it seems we have all sorts of petty inequalities spread throughout the country. For example, many are willing to elect Hillary Clinton for president solely because she is a woman, thereby giving her an unfair advantage... simply for being a woman! Ironically, she also dresses very "masculinely", to a degree that if a male candidate dressed with an equivalent degree of femininity he would be derided as a homosexual or a trannie (transsexual, if trannie is too colloquial).

Most commonly and most apparently of all though, women can't behave as promiscuously as men without being chastised for being "whores" or "sluts". Additionally, women aren't subject to conscription (to clarify, we don't actually have a draft in America, but we do have to register for the draft upon turning 18) which is not only unfair to men, but insulting to women, who are just as capable of military service (of any sort) as men.

Beyond that, women are generally considered "equal" and often protected from discrimination by laws, but they've yet to gain specific protection from the U.S. Constitution. For reference, this is ERA, which has been denied several times:





			
				Equal Rights Amendment said:
			
		

> Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
> Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
> Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.


Is that really too much to ask? Seems like a perfectly valid amendment to me, yet it's been denied, infamously, every time it's been submitted to Congress.

Anyhow, as I was saying, while they're often considered "equal" and some laws give them legal "equality", they still earn less and occupy fewer managerial and political positions than men (whether it's because of discrimination or not is open to debate, though).


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## Dempsey

We are not completely equal, no. However, many people _do_ consider us near-equal when they compare our current situation to how it was 100 years ago:
In the early 20th century men and women were very unequal. In a marriage, the woman would be considered an extension of the man. He could do what he wanted with her. If she divorced him and started working he could claim a portion of her wages. Women received less pay than men (I think it was 70% of men?). Countless other problems.
Then came world war 1 and 2. You had huge amounts of men going to war, which greatly shrunk the work force. Out of necessity many women joined the work force and (most of them) loved it. Out of this grew Feminism, and the first movements towards equality for women.
That is where we began to work towards equality, and we are still not quite there.

There is still a lot of sexism, a lot of demonisation (of both sexes), and many double standards. True equality would be where both sexes have the same opportunities to succeed in life, and not be discriminated against for being either male or female. Men and women tend to desire differnt thing though, don't they?


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## Tao

It is a tricky subject. With all respect, I think the wording is to be different. When one speaks of "equality" one is to carefully understand this word's meaning. Equality is the state of being equal, having the same characteristics, traits, etcetera. A man is no woman, and a woman is no man. People everywhere always differ. Therefore men and women being equal is impossible.

It is more about "situations", human rights, citizen rights, and so on, and not about "being equal" which is totally something else.


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## Outsider

With respect, Tao, I think that's a false issue. Everyone knows what we mean by "equal" in this context. The American Declaration of Independence famously stated: 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."​
Yet no two men are exactly equal, either. This is a statement of intention about rights, not biology.


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## Sepia

Whenever people talk about equal rights the much too often only talk about improving the women's siutation and hardly ever talk about the situations where men seem to have less rights than women.


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## ernest_

I am not a woman, but I would gladly be one because women really are the "powers that be", at least here in this country. A smile here, a wink there, is enough to get what they want. I experience this terrible power every single day of my life.


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## Tao

Outsider said:


> With respect, Tao, I think that's a false issue. Everyone knows what we mean by "equal" in this context. The American Declaration of Independence famously stated:"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."​Yet no two men are exactly equal, either. This is a statement of intention about rights, not biology.


Allow me the honour of attempting to dissect your words.

It is no false issue; what has been stated rings true. The meaning of equality is precisely the state of being equal, and this -- for men and women, humans in general, many things -- is impossible.

We know what is meant by equality contextually here but then I question the inclusion of the American Declaration of Independence as if it is to prove we all know what is meant here. Not everyone has heard or read it and its inclusion is conquentially irrelevant and false to "Everyone knows what we mean by "equal" in this context" and "I think that's a false issue" before it.

Then, in the last paragraph, you more or less concur with me by saying "Yet no two men are exactly equal, either" and concurring with and repeating some of my statements with "This is a statement of intention about rights, not biology."

*Having* equal rights by law, etcetera, etcetera; yes. True equality -- *being* equal; impossible.


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## Acrolect

Tao said:


> Equality is the state of being equal, having the same characteristics, traits, etcetera. A man is no woman, and a woman is no man. People everywhere always differ. Therefore men and women being equal is impossible.
> 
> It is more about "situations", human rights, citizen rights, and so on, and not about "being equal" which is totally something else.


I agree with Outsider that the common understanding of _people being equal_ is less about characteristics, but rather about having the same status and value and, by implication, the same legal or economic rights.

But of course, you have a point because the problem for equality (between any kind of social groups) is that our perceptions of 'natural' differences (differences in attributes) are often implicitly grafted upon our perceptions of value and status. So I often hear people say that men are by nature more interested in power, or that they are interested in professions which happen to be those which are better paid.

In theory and also to some degree in practice, women are equal to men in Austria. But looking at statistics of income, of women and men in higher socio-political positions, etc., then we see that there still remains a lot to be achieved.

True equality would mean that any person can freely - i.e. without any legal or cultural restrictions - decide what to do. This will probably always remain the ideal target.



> For example, many are willing to elect Hillary Clinton for president solely because she is a woman, thereby giving her an unfair advantage... simply for being a woman!


Gender should not be the issue in theory, but as Hillary Clinton would be the first women to run for president (as Barack Obama would be the first African American or non-white), gender (or ethnicity, for that matter) for the first time will be an issue. (I do not believe that her gender will give her an unfair advantage because there will also be lots of people who will not vote for her because she is a woman.)


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## Cristina Moreno

Thank you all for your participation in this discussion and for your opinions, but I would very much like to know the status of women in Spain, Mexico and all of the hispanospeaking countries and of course arabian countries as well. So it would be an honor if natives from these countries (and of course all the others) would share this type of information with us.
Again, thank you all and I'll be anxiously waiting for your replies.

Cristina.

Hello again!
Ruego a los nativos que participan en esta discusion para aclarar y ensenar el estado de las mujeres en sus paises.
Sera un honor si ustedes compartirian con nosotros sus opiniones sobre esta tema.
Un abrazo.
Cristina.
(ps: excuse my spanish mistakes! -I know there are plenty!!-)


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## -Epic-

In Israel theoretically women are equal to men in every way including in military service (except the fact they have to serve 2 years while men need 3).

in truth sometimes women salaries are abit lower (depends on job) and they have to work harder to get to a high reputation combat unit (though for non combat they get an easier time then men)


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## John Carter

Cristina:
Por lo que yo veo en España las mujeres y los hombres tienen los mismos derechos en teoría.
Y también pasa como en Israel que a veces los salarios son mas bajos para las mujeres, aunque por la ley deben ser iguales para el mismo trabajo.
Y los hombres en general no ayudan mucho a fregar los platos y hacer la 
colada.
Mejor te lo cuenta una mujer española. 

ZJC


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## Kajjo

Sepia said:


> Whenever people talk about equal rights the much too often only talk about improving the women's siutation and hardly ever talk about the situations where men seem to have less rights than women.


I agree entirely. Could you please elaborate on this issue with some examples?

Kajjo


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## Kajjo

Outsider said:


> This is a statement of intention about rights, not biology.





			
				Tao said:
			
		

> *Having* equal rights by law, etcetera, etcetera; yes. True equality -- *being* equal; impossible.


I have to agree with Tao that "equality" is a much more difficult subject to define and discuss, as superficially it might seem to be. 

In most European and Western countries an almost equality by law is established nowadays. However, do all people feel it is actually there? Are the laws applied? Are laws enough? Does the equality issue sometimes even treat men worse than women? Does everyone think both sexes _should _be treated equal in any respect?

Kajjo


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## mirx

Women in México are equal to men when it comes to legal affairs, so equal that there are around 6 or 7 governors in the different states, probably a third of our politicians are women.

I share some common view points with Ernest, in México it is true that a woman can get somewhere faster with a wink and a smile than a man would do with hard work, and at the end it just may be regarded as natural flriting. With no slutty/whorish connotations implied.

Women are not forced to serve for the army, they usually get half the goods of the husband after a divorce plus half his wages (this process is also known as "_castration_").

That's in the legal aspect, but to society, a conservative society, the male and female roles are still well defined, and there are certain things that a woman is not supposed to do, and things a man in not. This doesn't have to be bad, women can benefit from a lot, being different is usually a plus.

I know that MACHO is thought of by many as a synonim to México, but this attitude is fastly fading out. I, for one, don't know any woman who lets somebody else puts her down. Some do it under the name of love, but under the name of love we all do very stupid things, that includes us both men and women. 

I do think México is a very good place for women do develop their potentials, something like the Hillaty case happens, sometimes just because a person is a female she is given advantages, and thus being unequal trying to be equal.


Cheers.


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## alexacohen

mirx said:


> I share some common view points with Ernest, in México it is true that a woman can get somewhere faster with a wink and a smile than a man would do with hard work, and at the end it just may be regarded as natural flriting. With no slutty/whorish connotations implied.


 
Hold on.
Do you really think any woman gets anywhere with a wink and a smile?
Could you elaborate on that?
Do you really think that any woman who has reached an executive position inside a big company, has reached her position simply because she winked and smiled all the way to it?
I'm sorry, but women who reach executive positions in _any_ field have worked as hard (sometimes harder) as many men.
With a wink and a smile, and nothing but a wink and a smile, a woman only reaches one position: sprawled in boss' bed.


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## mjmuak

I just want to add something to Alexacohen's comments.



mirx said:


> woman can get somewhere faster with a wink and a smile than a man would do with hard work, and at the end it just may be regarded as natural flriting. With no slutty/whorish connotations implied.


 
I think you are talking about beautiful women with a good body. I can't picture a fat ugly woman (no offence to fat or ugly people, you should see me) blinking or flirting and being promoted for it. However, I do imagine hot men who can do this. It's got nothing to do with being a woman, what you are talking about it's a matter of physique.

Let's put it this way. A beutiful woman with great body and a good pair of boobs who has worked as hard as anyone else and always has to prove that she is intelligent (imagine if she is blond!!) and that she is not trying to take advantage of her body. Can you imagine how hard that is?? If it was a hot man, no one will ever question his intelligence because of his look.

And, to be honest, if a woman blinks, smiles or whatever to get promoted, she will be a bi***, whereas a man who sleeps with the boss is just being inteligent and practical.  

Very sad, but that's the way it usually is.


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## Drechuin

In France, women have same rights than men.

Yet, they often are significantly less paid than men (the average gap is more than 10%, most probably around) and the proportion of women in the Assembly is very low (compared with the other countries of the EU).


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## Cristina Moreno

mjmuak said:


> And, to be honest, if a woman blinks, smiles or whatever to get promoted, she will be a bi***, whereas a man who sleeps with the boss is just being inteligent and practical.
> 
> Very sad, but that's the way it usually is.


 
That's exactly what happens in Lebanon!!!! And that's what I meant by my question because, although gender equality is being established more and more, there is always that 'retro' idea that women aren't allowed to do as many things as men!!
ie: In Lebanon, if a guy sleeps with a girl, he's a stud and that's something to brag about! But if a girl sleeps with a guy, she's a b**ch!!
What about your country? Does this happen too?


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## alexacohen

Cristina Moreno said:


> ie: In Lebanon, if a guy sleeps with a girl, he's a stud and that's something to brag about! But if a girl sleeps with a guy, she's a b**ch!!
> What about your country? Does this happen too?


 
Yes, it does. Less than it used to, but there are still many traces of "machismo" in our society. 
Like companies that will fire a recently married woman. Discriminated just in case she's pregnant.
Those companies can be sued, but it is very difficult to prove the real reason they've dismissed the woman.


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## roseruf

alexacohen said:


> Hold on.
> Do you really think any woman gets anywhere with a wink and a smile?
> Could you elaborate on that?
> Do you really think that any woman who has reached an executive position inside a big company, has reached her position simply because she winked and smiled all the way to it?
> I'm sorry, but women who reach executive positions in _any_ field have worked as hard (sometimes harder) as many men.
> With a wink and a smile, and nothing but a wink and a smile, a woman only reaches one position: sprawled in boss' bed.


 

  Thanks alexacohen! 
  Sorry ernest_ but I think you have a very simple vision of the problem. I think that a woman that does that is accepting that she is a sexual object and tries to take some advantage of it, but I think that it is because she feels that there isn’t any other way. 
  I’m from your country, from your city, and I’m a “young” woman (30y). And is very disgusting to found that the first question in a work interview is if you have child or you are planning to have it! And is very disgusting that a man can feels that, as I’m a sexual object, he can touch my bottom in the bus!! And it still happens!

  I’m a biologist and, in my profession, there are more female students than male students. But there are more male bosses than female bosses!! 
  I’m optimistic, I think it is changing, but in many occasions, just for being a woman, you need to prove that you are not stupid (and I’m not beauty nor blonde!). If you don’t believe me observe what happens when a woman enters in a Hardware store or when she tries to convince a man that she is able to understand how an engine works... Many often, when the bank, the telephone company, or other business calls home offering some products they still ask for “the husband”! And many people assume that, as you are a woman, you are a housewife or, if not, you have a silly kind of work that you can immediately leave to go to receive the deliverer or the plumber, they never ask your husband!

  Today, many people are surprised because, in the sharing of the home duties, my husband goes shopping, cleans and irons. And so many often other women (many of my same age!) say to me that I’m lucky because he “helps me” and, when I say that he eats and he smears, they look at me as I’m some kind of devil!
 I think that there are still many things that must change for that we will have the same opportunities, the same remuneration, and the same respect.

  Perdón por este post taaaaan laaaaargo y perdón por el inglés, ¡pero es que es un tema que me enerva! 
  Y perdona ernest_, no es personal, es que has metido el dedo en la llaga! Me sale la feminista que llevo dentro cual vulgar alien y pasa lo que pasa...

No te cortes, ¡corrígeme! / Please, correct me!


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## Black Opal

mirx said:


> Women ... usually get half the goods of the husband(this process is also known as "_castration_").


 
Don't you mean that _jointly owned_ goods get divided equally?

Or in Mexico do household goods have the owner's name on them?

Also, forgive me, but I always understood that _castration_ meant surgical removal of testes? 
Which seems a little excessive, frankly.


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## mirx

alexacohen said:


> Hold on.
> Do you really think any woman gets anywhere with a wink and a smile?
> Could you elaborate on that?
> Do you really think that any woman who has reached an executive position inside a big company, has reached her position simply because she winked and smiled all the way to it?
> I'm sorry, but women who reach executive positions in _any_ field have worked as hard (sometimes harder) as many men.
> With a wink and a smile, and nothing but a wink and a smile, a woman only reaches one position: sprawled in boss' bed.


 
Hold down your horses cowgirl. I never said any of the things that you implied in your questions. So to start.
1.- No, I never said a woman gets anywhere with a wink, I said a woman can get *some*where (some places) faster with a wink and a smile.
2.-I think is very clear what I meant, so no, I can't elaborate on that, maybe if you were more specific as to what is it that you want to know.
3.-This just a horrible asumption you made yourself, I would never say something like that, to do that I'd need to believe it first and I don't. I didn't even mention words like executive, or position, or big company.

I too disagree with your last statement, a woman who winks is just being feminine, natural, kind. A man who does it wants something else.

*Mjuak:*
I indeed was talking of unattractive women, I cannot think of a fat, ugly woman doing that, she'd immediately be fired under the means of sexual harrasment.

*FYI. *Men don't sleep with their bosses to get promotions, we just do it for the sake of it.

*Black Opal.*
Man gets better positions than women, man starts making much more money at an earlier age the women do, man is expected to buy the family home, man is expected to support it, man buys the cars, pays the bills, etc. But when divorce comes woman gets half of man's possesions, no matter what man does, man always loses, ain't no way around it. This is too, called castration.

What I just wrote works for mots of cases where man is the main bread-winner of the household. When woman is the main supporter, the divorce dynamics don't work the other way around. Man still gets ripped off.

Cheers.


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## alexacohen

> I share some common view points with Ernest, in México it is true that a woman can get somewhere faster with a wink and a smile than a man would do with hard work,





> I said a woman can get *some*where (some places) faster with a wink and a smile.


Did I misunderstand you?
You didn't mention any _place _(or some _place, _if you prefer) in your first post.


> I think is very clear what I meant, so no, I can't elaborate on that, maybe if you were more specific as to what is it that you want to know.


What you meant is as clear as mud. 


> This just a horrible asumption you made yourself, I would never say something like that, to do that I'd need to believe it first and I don't


I haven't made an horrible assumption. What you said is written down black on white.
But I'll comply with your request to be more specific about what I want.
I would like you to elaborate on which are the* places* a woman can reach faster with a wink and a smile that a man would only reach with _*hard work*._


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## Kajjo

mirx said:


> *FYI. *Men don't sleep with their bosses to get promotions, we just do it for the sake of it.


That's true in most cases, yes. And you put it in concise words.

Kajjo


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## Acrolect

mirx said:


> *FYI. *Men don't sleep with their bosses to get promotions, we just do it for the sake of it.


 
So are you saying that for men sexuality, irrespective of the circumstances, just represents a sensual experience to be enjoyed, while for women - at least in a business context - it is primarily a means to some other (by implication, morally derogatory) end?

Honestly, this is just macho babble.


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## Cristina Moreno

Acrolect said:


> So are you saying that for men sexuality, irrespective of the circumstances, just represents a sensual experience to be enjoyed, while for women - at least in a business context - it is primarily a means to some other (by implication, morally derogatory) end?
> 
> Honestly, this is just macho babble.


 
THANK YOU!!! I couldn't have said it better!!!
Cristina.


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## mjmuak

!Qué fuerte!



mirx said:


> 1.- No, I never said a woman gets anywhere with a wink, I said a woman can get *some*where (some places) faster with a wink and a smile.


 


mirx said:


> *FYI. *Men don't sleep with their bosses to get promotions, we just do it for the sake of it.


 
I woman can get somewhere with a wink, yes, and a man can't??? I know I guy who slept with a teacher and never had to worry about her subject again. All his and my friends said "you lucky bastard!!".  Had I done the same, what do you think they would have said about me?? 

And, by the way, women enjoy sex as much as men, so when we do it, we also do it for the sake of it.



mirx said:


> I too disagree with your last statement, a woman who winks is just being feminine, natural, kind. A man who does it wants something else.


 
Excuse me?? So when I smile (I'm obvioulsy a woman) I am just being femenine and if you smile, what is it called??? An attractive man can also smile and get something out of it, believe me.



mirx said:


> Man gets better positions than women, man starts making much more money at an earlier age the women do, man is expected to buy the family home, man is expected to support it, man buys the cars, pays the bills, etc. But when divorce comes woman gets half of man's possesions, no matter what man does, man always loses, ain't no way around it. This is too, called castration.
> 
> What I just wrote works for mots of cases where man is the main bread-winner of the household. When woman is the main supporter, the divorce dynamics don't work the other way around. Man still gets ripped off.
> Cheers.


 
I can't argue against this because it is different in each country. I agree that sometimes divorce laws are unfair. In Spain the custody of the children is automatically given to the mother (unless the State considers she is disqualified for some reason) and if the father wants it, he will have to appeal in the courts.

But your point of view is very _machista. _There are some couples where the man works hard and the woman does nothing. But there are many  more couples where the woman works as hard as the man but ther job it is not regarded as a big effort because she "only" cleans the house and looks after the children. But law does regard it this way, so it is fair that she gets half of everything. If she worked out and the man had to look after the children and the house, wouldn't it be fair for the man to get half of everything in a divorce?? 

Unfortunately you are right and in many cases the man is still expected to earn more and pay for everything. This is what we want to change, but with views like yours, it is very very hard.


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## Cristina Moreno

I just would like to point out that being a housewife is a full-time job and raising the kids is far from being an easy task!
I would like to see a man do this work and see if his point of vue regarding women's work changes or not!


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## Fernando

My view:

As said before, legislation in Spain is independent on gender, except:

- According to last laws, an assault inside the family (domestic violence, gender violence) is more punished if the assaulter is a man than if she is a woman.

- According to last laws, the parties must propose an almost equal number of men and women to be elected. As a consequence, a women-only list presented by the political right (PP) was banned.

- Conscription: Until its elimination (2000s), men were conscripted for one year (then 9 months), women were not. Women do not have combat duties in infantry.

In practice:

- In a divorce procedure, men are typically the losers, since children (specially the younger ones) are "allocated" to the mother, together with the house (regardless of who has paid for it) and a pension (for the children) and a "pensión compensatoria".

- If you are a man who hates children, maybe you are a "winner", specially if you snake to avoid to pay the pension.

- In some professions, men are almost unknown, such as cleaners (except in offices) or cashiers at supermarket. Teaching is an industry dominated by women.

- Women are almost unknown in construction, transport and fishing, among others. The very few women I saw were architects or engineers.

- Women are majority in university undergraduates (55-45 or so), but a minority in technical careers.

- About 80 women are killed every year by her couple, with far more being beaten. Still there is some tolerance to those beatings (it's not my business), specially among some groups.

- Women have a "glass ceiling", based (in my opinion) in a bigger attention to children than their couples, a slight patronizing attitude to women, a more little commitmest with work and a poorer approach to confrontation, leadership and command.

- Men are depicted in TV series and ads as stupid and sex-obssessed, while women are sensitive, sensible and intelligent. See "Simpsons", "Los Serrano", "Padre de Familia", etc. Compare Bart/Homer and Lisa/Maggee Simpson.

- Spanish-born women have almost stopped having children. The expected number of children are 1-2. Having 3 children is strange. Having 4+ is bizarre and arise comments such as "They must have joined Opus Dei".


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## mjmuak

Fernando said:


> - According to last laws, an assault inside the family (domestic violence, gender violence) is more punished if the assaulter is a man than if she is a woman.


 
Yes, you are right, I will never understand why men and women are not treated the same way in this aspect. The reality, however, is that many more women are beaten, and sometimes killed, than men. Men who suffer from this will usually hide it beacause they are ashamed that a woman can beat them.



Fernando said:


> - According to last laws, the parties must propose an almost equal number of men and women to be elected. As a consequence, a women-only list presented by the political right (PP) was banned.


 
Ban that I find totally logic; I don't like this kind of "discriminación positiva". 



Fernando said:


> - In a divorce procedure, men are typically the losers, since children (specially the younger ones) are "allocated" to the mother, together with the house (regardless of who has paid for it) and a pension (for the children) and a "pensión compensatoria".


 
Not totally true. It is the parent with the custody who gets to LIVE in the family house with the children until they are 18. As it is usually the mother who is given the children (which I think it's unfair), she is usually the one who stays in the house, but she doesn't keep it unless it is stated in the distribution of the couple's goods. Until they are 18 (or independent, I'm not very sure) the house belongs to both parents. 

The "pensión compensatoria" is an urband legend. If the mother gets the children, she will receive a pension for them but not necessarily for her. If she earns as much as the father he doesn't have to give her anything. If she earns more than him she will probably have to give the father a pension, which is usually deducted from the children's pension that he gives. "La pensión compesatoria" is only given because both parents have the right to have the same standard of living after the divorce than in the marriage. This means that if they earn the same, none pension is given, and if one of them earns more, he/she will have to give money to the other. It's got nothing to do with being a woman.

My parents got divorced a few years ago and I know this quite well.



Fernando said:


> - In some professions, men are almost unknown, such as cleaners (except in offices) or cashiers at supermarket. Teaching is an industry dominated by women.
> 
> - Women are almost unknown in construction, transport and fishing, among others. The very few women I saw were architects or engineers.
> 
> - Women are majority in university undergraduates (55-45 or so), but a minority in technical careers.


 
Teaching, nursing, cleaning are _dominated _by women because they are the only fields men have let us. If we are not fishers, bus/lorry/train drivers, architects or engineers is because we have never been given the opportunity. Now that we do have the opportunity some people, both men and women, think they are inappropiate for a woman.



Fernando said:


> - Women have a "glass ceiling", based (in my opinion) in a bigger attention to children than their couples, a slight patronizing attitude to women, a more little commitmest with work and a poorer approach to confrontation, leadership and command.


 
If women have this "bigger" attetion to children is because we have been educated to have it. Many women who work out also take care of the children and the house. Not many of their husbands know what needs to be bought or paid. And the majority of these husbands agree that the wife is the "boss". What poorer approach to command are you talking about??




Fernando said:


> - Spanish-born women have almost stopped having children. The expected number of children are 1-2. Having 3 children is strange. Having 4+ is bizarre and arise comments such as "They must have joined Opus Dei".


True, but this happens in all the Western countries. Too hard to work, clean, take care of 4 children and a husband at the same time. Also, the condoms and the control birth pills are a quite new discovery. We are not baby-machines anymore.


----------



## Fernando

Mjmuak, I have presented the reality the way I see it. Since I am not a woman it is difficult to me to split among "Women are this way because that is the way women are" and "Women are this way because that is the way they have forced/educated to be".

About divorce laws, I fully agree with your comments. I have stated before that there is no difference, but there are differences IN PRACTICE. Since women USE TO be given the custody, they USE TO hold the use of the common house, that USE TO have been paid by the husband.

About the "Pensión compensatoria": since the husband USE TO be paid more, he USES to be the payer. As you have stated it is based in the principle that



> both parents have the right to have the same standard of living after the divorce than in the marriage



That principle is, at least, arguable. 



mjmuak said:


> We are not baby-machines anymore.



I have only said what you are confirming to me. We used to call them "mothers" to be praised. Now you consider them "baby machines" to be scorned.


----------



## Brioche

Fernando said:


> My view:
> 
> As said before, legislation in Spain is independent on gender, except:
> ...........
> 
> - In some professions, men are almost unknown, such as cleaners (except in offices) or cashiers at supermarket. Teaching is an industry dominated by women.
> 
> - Women are almost unknown in construction, transport and fishing, among others. The very few women I saw were architects or engineers.
> 
> - Women are majority in university undergraduates (55-45 or so), but a minority in technical careers.
> 
> - Women have a "glass ceiling", based (in my opinion) in a bigger attention to children than their couples, a slight patronizing attitude to women, a more little commitmest with work and a poorer approach to confrontation, leadership and command.
> 
> - Men are depicted in TV series and ads as stupid and sex-obssessed, while women are sensitive, sensible and intelligent. See "Simpsons", "Los Serrano", "Padre de Familia", etc. Compare Bart/Homer and Lisa/Maggee Simpson.
> 
> - Spanish-born women have almost stopped having children. The expected number of children are 1-2. Having 3 children is strange. Having 4+ is bizarre and arise comments such as "They must have joined Opus Dei".



Much of this applies in Australia, too.

In Australia, teaching has become more and more feminised over the last several years.

Relatively speaking, teachers' salaries have been falling for the last 30 years or so.

There is also the current paranoia about paedophilia. This does not encourage a man to say that he wants to work with children.

There is also considerable "affirmative action" [read: anti-male bias] in education. Teaching and assessment methods have been deliberately aimed at favouring girls. As a result, although there are more boys that girls of school-age, many more girls than boys complete their education, and many more girls than boys get very good grades in high school.

As in Spain, females outnumber males in undergraduate courses.

Unlike Spain, [and most of western Europe and Japan], Australia is not yet committing national suicide by having reproduction rates well below replacement levels.


----------



## mjmuak

But, with all my respects, the reality you see is the reality some men want to see, not the real reality.



Fernando said:


> Mjmuak, I have presented the reality the way I see it. Since I am not a woman it is difficult to me to split among "Women are this way because that is the way women are" and "Women are this way because that is the way they have forced/educated to be".


 
It is not that difficult if you pay attention. My mother had to do everthing at home because my father didn't do anything at all. My sister, my brother and I were brought up thinking that this is the way it should be. Now we are all grownups and we agree that it wasn't fair and that we don't want this to happen in our relationships, even my brother. He admits that, instintively, he expects the woman to take care of the shopping list, the washing up, etc, but he understand that it is something he has to do too. 



Fernando said:


> About divorce laws, I fully agree with your comments. I have stated before that there is no difference, but there are differences IN PRACTICE. Since women USE TO be given the custody, they USE TO hold the use of the common house, that USE TO have been paid by the husband.


 
Arguable  or not, you will agree that "la pensión compesatoria" is not unfair; the parent with the custody may  get it or not, and the parent without the custody may get it or not as well. It depends on the situation and on your earnings, not on being a woman. What is unfair is the fact that the mother is automatically given the custody.



Fernando said:


> I have only said what you are confirming to me. We used to call them "mothers" to be praised. Now you consider them "baby machines" to be scorned.


 
I am not saying that a mother of 4, 8 or 15 children is a babymachine, sorry if I didn't express myself well. I meant that now women can decide how many children they want to have whereas not many years ago they usually had to do whatever their husbands felt like. They have always been regarded as baby-machines because that is what people expected from them and the only thing they could do.


----------



## mirx

alexacohen said:


> Did I misunderstand you?


Yes you did.


alexacohen said:


> You didn't mention any _place _(or some _place, _if you prefer) in your first post.
> 
> What you meant is as clear as mud.
> 
> I haven't made an horrible assumption. What you said is written down black on white.
> But I'll comply with your request to be more specific about what I want.
> I would like you to elaborate on which are the* places* a woman can reach faster with a wink and a smile that a man would only reach with *hard work*_._


 

*Any* is exactly the opposite to *some*. You misinterpreted what I said and made it sound like I believed a woman can get anywhere by sleeping around, this is by no means true.
Any= no restrictions, completely open, everything, no difference is made.
Some= only under certain circumstances, limited by chances, characteristics, etc.
which places? I don't know, it would be another assumption to say that all female doctors passed their exams by sleeping with whom they had to sleep with to pass their exams. As I said, some depends on the circumstances, the people, the places, etc.
There lies the abysmal difference between the horrendous thing you thought I said.

I do believe that what I wrote is in black and white, still you didn't get it. Please read my post again.


> MIRX
> _I share *some* common view points with Ernest, in México it is true that a woman can get *some*where faster with a wink and a smile than a man would do with hard work, and at the end it just may be regarded as natural flriting. *With no slutty/whorish connotations implied*._


 
Please note that I didn't say a woman gets faster I said that she *can* get there (a more appropriate word would be *May*)
The next one is yours.


> _Do you really think that any woman who has reached an executive position inside a big company, has reached her position simply because she winked and smiled all the way to it?_ *When did I say I did?*
> _I'm sorry, but women who reach executive positions in any field have worked as hard (sometimes harder) as many men. Sometimes (_*most of times, if not harder)*
> _With a wink and a smile, and nothing but a wink and a smile, a woman only reaches one position: sprawled in boss' bed._ *Absolutely not true*


 
All the above I never said or implied (_except for the things in red that I added this time_), still that is what you want to believe I think, that only lets show your feminist attitude trying to find wrongs where there're none, trying to feel attacked so you can attack back.

*Acrolet:* You too are trying to see between the lines, and there's nothing between them, I meant simply what I wrote. Whether women enjoy sexual relations is not the topic. Open a new one!!! And no, you thought wrong again, some woman sleep with their colleagues because they so want it with nothing behind it. My statement was a response to someone else's post, she said that a woman that sleeps with her boss was called a bitch and that a man in the same situation would be thought of as practical. I just wanted to mark out that most men (with of course the exceptions) would happily engage in sexual relations even though no promotions or incentives were involved.

Mjmuak.



> And, by the way, women enjoy sex as much as men, so when we do it, we also do it for the sake of it.


Well, good for you and all those women honey. 
Just out of curiosity ask your friend, if, given the chance would he rather not have had sex and pass, or had sex and fail. Let me know what he says.
About the smiling thing, please see the post where the answer came from (yours). I just wanted to say that I don't think a woman is a whore because she smiles or winks or whatever, I take that as pure femininity. And believe me if a man winks at you there would *usually* *avoid assumptions -usually *not* always*-* be hidden intentions.

My point of view is not machista; or if it is please let me know where the machista part comes in as I seem to be lost. *I just painted a picture of what things are like where I lived*, and tried to make you see (all around), that if it was the woman the one who provides with the main income to the household and the husband the housekeeper, in case of a divorce he definitely wouldn't get half of everything.

Please people, follow the thread from beginning to end and don't just go posting things that apparently I meant, I respect you all and expect the same from you. Mjmuak please don't put words in my mouth, I am the words you see, so don't try to twist them around to get the impression you want to have of me.

It always happens in this forum that people get lost debating what should and should not be. When all the thread-opener wanted to know was what women were seen and treated like in other countries, and _not whether the way they are treated is fair, machista, advantageous, etc_.

And lastly, I am not a savior of women so don't expect me to defend women or criticize the ones that are indifferent to machismo, it is enough for me to know that my sister, cousins or mother or friends are not put down by any one, and that they all know how to stand on by themselves in the event that someone attempted to.

As I now think everything I had to said has been written down, I am not going to reply to more provocations, much less when they are founded on idiotic and ridiculous assumptions.

Have a good day people.


----------



## karuna

Latvia is much less conservative than most western countries regarding the role of the woman. Probably, due to unpopularity of religion or other historical reasons. Nothing is perfect but feminism is not popular here.

While in America people watch Batlestar Galactica and make remarks that "the only reason that a woman became a president of the colony without anyone questioning her status just for her being a woman is because it is a sci-fi film where everything is possible", in Latvia we had a woman president for two terms and no one criticized her for being a woman. I think that gender discrimination at the workplace is rare.

But still there are much less women among entrepreneurs, upper management and women also earn about 30% less money than men. One big exception is the governmental sector. I don't think it has anything to do with discrimination but rather the physiological differences. Women are less likely to take the risk, they prefer stability, whereas men take greater risks and naturally get bigger rewards. At the same time men are more likely to have bad habits like alcoholism, drug use, traffic accidents and generally they live 10 years less than women. So, it all evens out.


----------



## alexacohen

You said first:


> it is true that a woman can get somewhere faster with a wink and a smile than a man would do with* hard work*,


I asked what was your meaning, and you answered first that by "*somewhere*" you meant "*some places*", and that I had purposely changed "some" to "any".
"Some" is used in an affirmative sentence such as yours, and "any" in an interrogative sentence, such as mine. I've not changed at all what you said, I have asked a question.
When I asked, again, for clarification as to what you meant by "some places", your answer was that you don't know which places you meant.



> which places? I don't know


Then you said:



> it would be another assumption to say that all female doctors passed their exams by *sleeping with whom they had to sleep with* to pass their exams. As I said, some depends on the circumstances, the people, the places, etc


I never said that *some* women reached an executive *position by sleeping with whom they had to sleep with.* 
I said NO WOMAN ever reaches an executive position with "feminine" smiles and winks. What I said is that a woman, with a wink and a smile, only reaches as far as boss' bed.



> FYI. Men don't sleep with their bosses to get promotions, we just do it for the sake of it.


 
Which is, more or less, what you said to Mjmuak. So much for my horrible assumptions.
If you are, or are not, "a savior of women" is no concern of mine.
If you think that asking for clarification is an idiotic and ridiculous provocation based on my "feminist attitude", it's your privilege. If you choose not to clarify your point and answer any (or some) questions, stating simply that some of us have misunderstood you, possibly because of our rampant feminism, it's your privilege, too.
Mine is not to read your posts, that, if I may say it, reek of machismo.


----------



## mjmuak

mirx said:


> About the smiling thing, please see the post where the answer came from (yours). I just wanted to say that I don't think a woman is a whore because she smiles or winks or whatever, I take that as pure femininity. And believe me if a man winks at you there would *usually* *avoid assumptions -usually *not* always*-* be hidden intentions.


 
I haven't said that you said a woman is a whore if she smiles to a guy. It is just that I don't understand why you see the smiling as a "feminity" thing. Men also smile, because they are happy or because they are flirting, whatever. And man can get smiling as far as a woman could get smiling. That's my whole point. 



mirx said:


> Just out of curiosity ask your friend, if, given the chance would he rather not have had sex and pass, or had sex and fail. Let me know what he says.


 
My friend failed an exam and went to talk to the teacher. They ended up having sex and he finally passed the exam. Believe me, she was not a beauty. 

I agree that people can get somewhere with a smile, a wink or sex. What I don't understand is why you have referred only to women. As I said before, a man can also get very far with a smile or a wink. *The difference is that a woman who does this is a bit** (weather she is doing it to get promoted or if she is the one who is offering a promotion to a man) and men who do it are "lucky bastards".*



mirx said:


> Mjmuak.
> Well, good for you and all those women honey.


 
You know what I meant. Many people, both men and women, have  sex only to get promotions. Many other just enjoy doing it, with bosses or whoever. If I had a really hot boss I would probably not mind sleeping with him just for the sake of it, even if I wasn't going to get promoted.


----------



## ernest_

roseruf said:


> Today, many people are surprised because, in the sharing of the home duties, my husband goes shopping, cleans and irons. And so many often other women (many of my same age!) say to me that I’m lucky because he “helps me” and, when I say that he eats and he smears, they look at me as I’m some kind of devil!



As I have always seen my father ironing, sweeping the floor, doing the laundry and the washing up, since I was a bairn, I do not associate these activities with women. I do not expect a woman to do anything for me. Maybe it's just me, but I think it is the usual attitude amongst men of my generation. And those women who have a lazy husband, I feel sorry for them, but it's nobody's fault but theirs. They should have thought who they were marrying before.


----------



## Acrolect

mirx said:


> *Acrolet:* You too are trying to see between the lines, and there's nothing between them, I meant simply what I wrote.


 


mirx said:


> *FYI. *Men don't sleep with their bosses to get promotions, we just do it for the sake of it.


 
There is a context to the statement and their are connotations in its wording and formulation. If you did not intend your message to mean what possibly many saw as its message, then you can clarify this rather than blaming others for overinterpreting and reading between the lines (or in this case rather below the line) when in fact they just drew upon some pretty plausible assumptions.


----------



## alexacohen

Cristina Moreno said:


> I just would like to point out that being a housewife is a full-time job and raising the kids is far from being an easy task!
> I would like to see a man do this work and see if his point of vue regarding women's work changes or not!


 
Yoy're absolutely right, Cristina.


----------



## Black Opal

mirx said:


> *Black Opal.*
> Man gets better positions than women, man starts making much more money at an earlier age the women do, man is expected to buy the family home, man is expected to support it, man buys the cars, pays the bills, etc. But when divorce comes woman gets half of man's possesions, no matter what man does, man always loses, ain't no way around it. This is too, called castration.


 
Begging to differ here, but when we got married I earned more than my husband and I had a better job. This continued for several years, until I gave it all up to bring up our son and run the house (probably the most thankless job there is).
If we were to separate now, many years on, I would consider it perfectly correct that I got half of everything. The law agrees with me, I believe?

Looks like this is another large cultural difference to me (your point of view and mine).


----------



## HIEROPHANT

Cristina Moreno said:


> I just would like to point out that being a housewife is a full-time job and raising the kids is far from being an easy task!
> I would like to see a man do this work and see if his point of vue regarding women's work changes or not!


Beside the fact that there are men doing houseworks, housewife is not a job. For sure, not a full time one.
In most part of couples both the man and the woman have a full time job. Somehow the housework are done anyway (in the evening, in the week-end)...ergo....


----------



## mirx

HIEROPHANT said:


> Beside the fact that there are men doing houseworks, housewife is not a job. For sure, not a full time one.
> .


 
It depends on how big the house is.


----------



## mjmuak

HIEROPHANT said:


> Beside the fact that there are men doing houseworks, housewife is not a job. For sure, not a full time one.
> In most part of couples both the man and the woman have a full time job. Somehow the housework are done anyway (in the evening, in the week-end)...ergo....


Honey, being a housewife or a househusband is a fulltime job.

Sometimes both partners work and share the housework; sometimes both work and one does the housework; sometimes one works and the other takes care of the house = fulltime job, especially if there are children. BEing a housewife/husband is as hard as any other job, or even more as you can never forget about your work problems when you get home: you live in your workplace. But this is not what the discussion is about.


----------



## Acrolect

HIEROPHANT said:


> Beside the fact that there are men doing houseworks, housewife is not a job. For sure, not a full time one.
> In most part of couples both the man and the woman have a full time job. Somehow the housework are done anyway (in the evening, in the week-end)...ergo....


 
But the hours you spend with housework and child-rearing (in the mornings, in the evenings, on the weekends) might add up to almost a full-time job (with some time possibly saved by 'outsourcing' - kindergardens, schools, etc. - by sharing duties with your partner, by multi-tasking, e.g. organizing things, at least mentally, while at work, perhaps also by reducing standards ).

This is a sensitive issue because I too often see society play full-time housewives off against working (= paid work!) mothers.


----------



## roseruf

ernest_ said:


> As I have always seen my father ironing, sweeping the floor, doing the laundry and the washing up, since I was a bairn, I do not associate these activities with women. I do not expect a woman to do anything for me. *Maybe it's just me*, but I think it is the usual attitude amongst men of my generation.


 
Sorry ernest_, but Cristina Moreno asks us for a general attitude, not the exceptions and unfortunately, that a man of yours father’s generation assume the homeworks is very rare. I have said that, fortunately, it is starting to change, but what I see is that many men that think they share the home and child burdens what they really do is helping, not really sharing it. 
  There are 5 years between you and me, I can’t say what happens in your generation (how much of yours friend are really living with their couples?) but I can say what kind of problems many of the women of my generation have with their couples after some years of living together. I make some investigation between my work mates and the main that live at parents’ house joke about the elf that refills their tupperware and cleans their clothes. And all of those that live with his couple said that they share the homeworks, but their couples don’t agree and claim that they are unable to see the dirty, and many things like that. I know it is yet a big change, that men are assuming that they have a responsibility, and it is very good! But, are you sure it is happening in all social stratum and both in big cities and small villages? I’m not. 



ernest_ said:


> They should have thought who they were marrying before.



You need to live some time with someone to know him. And then you can break your relationship or trying to fight for it. I see you prefer the easy way!


Obviously, men and women feel the situation VERY different. Maybe you can ask yourselves why!


Un saludo,
Roser


----------



## HIEROPHANT

mjmuak said:


> Honey, being a housewife or a househusband is a fulltime job.
> 
> Sometimes both partners work and share the housework; sometimes both work and one does the housework; sometimes one works and the other takes care of the house = fulltime job, especially if there are children. BEing a housewife/husband is as hard as any other job, or even more as you can never forget about your work problems when you get home: you live in your workplace. But this is not what the discussion is about.


 
Oh, so the most part of the couples have 3 jobs? 
A real work takes _at least_ 10 hours a day, (work, lunch, travel time). 
If housework was a real job, a single person would need to work 20 hours in a day. How many people spend 10 hours _every day _to clean the house?


This matter is really about the topic, because the women has always felt to have less "rights", but the most part of them were (are) just housewives.


----------



## Brioche

Black Opal said:


> Begging to differ here, but when we got married I earned more than my husband and I had a better job. This continued for several years, until I gave it all up to bring up our son and run the house (probably the most thankless job there is).
> If we were to separate now, many years on, I would consider it perfectly correct that I got half of everything. The law agrees with me, I believe?



You would have to agree that the situation of the woman earning more than the man is not the average relationship.

I don't believe that women should get half on divorce. It should be half-and-half from day one.

My parents had joint ownership of the house, &c, &c, and that's the way my spouse and I do it.

A simple question before going into marriage [or "partnership"]. Are you prepared to give half of everything you currently own, and half of everything you subsequently gain, to your partner?

If the answer is "no", why are you marrying/partnering?


----------



## mjmuak

HIEROPHANT said:


> Oh, so the most part of the couples have 3 jobs?
> A real work takes _at least_ 10 hours a day, (work, lunch, travel time).
> If housework was a real job, a single person would need to work 20 hours in a day. How many people spend 10 hours _every day _to clean the house?
> 
> 
> This matter is really about the topic, because the women has always felt to have less "rights", but the most part of them were (are) just housewives.


 
Read my post again, please. If you consider that a fulltime job must have at least 10 hours, then housewives/husbands are superwomen/men because housework never ends, especially if there are children. I work as an aupair and look after 3 children 6h a day and, believe, it is a non-stop even though I don't have to do any cleaning. 

And you are wrong, this is off-topic, open I new thread if you want, we are not discussing here weather being a housewife/husband is a fulltime job or not.


----------



## mirx

Brioche;
 
If the answer is "no" said:
			
		

> What a romantic idea!!!
> 
> You have said it all there, I wish it was like that, unfortunately you never really get to know a person well enough to see what he's after.
> 
> Hierophant: Hahaha, I just loved your posts, but believe me it really is all about how big the house is or how many people live in the house, besides housekeeping is not only cleaning, but doing laundry, shopping, gardening, ironing, cooking, and a lot more things. Some housewieves are so busy that they even have schedules, and all tasks have to be programmed well in advance.
> 
> And well, just think back about your mom, or whoever that run the house. She was surely the 1st to get up in the morning and the last going to bed at night, that's defenitely more than 10 hours.
> 
> Cheers.


----------



## HIEROPHANT

mirx said:


> besides housekeeping is not only cleaning, but doing laundry, shopping, gardening, ironing, cooking, and a lot more things.


Cleaning the floor: 1 hour a week
Various cleanings: 1 hour a week
Doing laundry: 1 hour a week (basically collecting clotches and lay them
Shopping: 2-3 hours a week
gardening: depends if you have the garden, but does not belong to the housewife's job
ironing: 1 hour a week
cooking: 30 minutes for the dinner every day, so 3,5 hours
a lot more things: what? Watching television?

Grew the children could take a lot of time, ok, but the houseworks cannot take more than 1+1+1+3+1+4= 11 hours a week.
Where do you live, in a castle?
Please explain me what a housewife do all day long.


And I repeat, this is on topic beacause the conflicting between housework and work is the root of the differences between man and woman.


----------



## alexacohen

HIEROPHANT said:


> Cleaning the floor: 1 hour a week
> Various cleanings: 1 hour a week
> Doing laundry: 1 hour a week (basically collecting clotches and lay them
> Shopping: 2-3 hours a week
> gardening: depends if you have the garden, but does not belong to the housewife's job
> ironing: 1 hour a week
> cooking: 30 minutes for the dinner every day, so 3,5 hours


Please, get the broom and the iron and start doing housework before giving such absurd times.
After you've been doing housework for a week, come back and we'll talk seriously.


----------



## mirx

HIEROPHANT said:


> Cleaning the floor: 1 hour a week
> Various cleanings: 1 hour a week
> Doing laundry: 1 hour a week (basically collecting clotches and lay them
> Shopping: 2-3 hours a week
> gardening: depends if you have the garden, but does not belong to the housewife's job
> ironing: 1 hour a week
> cooking: 30 minutes for the dinner every day, so 3,5 hours
> a lot more things: what? Watching television?
> 
> Grew the children could take a lot of time, ok, but the houseworks cannot take more than 1+1+1+3+1+4= 11 hours a week.
> Where do you live, in a castle?
> Please explain me what a housewife do all day long.
> 
> 
> And I repeat, this is on topic beacause the conflicting between housework and work is the root of the differences between man and woman.


 

Hahaha, you're a very practical man and I hope you find a woman just as practical.

In many countries, usually where many inequalities exist between men and women, the times you gave for each of the chores actually takes much longer, example in a village.

Cooking: three full meals a day and varied dishes, breakfast, lunch and dinner, one hour for each (since she is a housewife everything is homemade). 3 hrs everyday.
Washing: is done by hand, so give it all saturday and wednesday mornings to be complete. 10 hrs a week.
Ironing: 3 hrs of the same saturaday.
Cleaning: Floors in latin cultures are made of tiles and so are swept and mopped mostly everyday, give this task half an hour e/d for an experienced housewife. 4 hrs a week.
Gardening, or maintenance of the patio, back yards if you have one, at least 2o min everyday plus a full morning on Sunday.
Shopping: agree with you, 
And there are a lot minute things that a housewife does and that require time, for expample my mom would sew our clothes herself when they got torn, making sure all the doors and windows were locked before going to bed, when we were children she used to select the clothes we were going to use the next day, prepare the lunch for husband and kids for the next day -I am not talking about sticking a bag of potatoe chips and a chocolate bar in box, I am talking about real food- She always made sure the bills got paid, also checked on our homeworks and many, many other things that I am obviously missing. Believe me she did a lot.

She didn't work anywhere else so it was understandable that she tried to keep herself busy. But when a husband and the wife both work, they both too need to pitch in.

My laughter is genuine so don't get offended, bty I wish I lived in a castle. I live with male roomates and of course the house is a pig pen, I DON'T SEE THE DIRT.


----------



## Kajjo

Wow, boys and girls, this is a funny thread! 

Seriously, this housewife hour counting is  ridiculous. Think about this reasoning:
1) Couples with man and woman working full day manage their household chores, too.
2) Thus, household chores just CANNOT be a full day job.

I favor quite strongly one partner staying home and raising children -- if there are children. The reason is that I believe there is no better way to convey social and moral values to children and because I believe children need someone they trust to be there for them. I would never try to undervalue the housekeeping and child-raising job. But fact is, in my point of view, that staying at home is much more relaxed, more more flexible and much less work than having a full day job in a company. Surely, a housewife/househusband can fill their day entirely, but that is not compulsory, but more a consequence of the day being there to be filled.

Further, please do not consider each interaction with children as work. Playing, talking, doing handicrafts with them is not work in itself. At least it is much nicer work than most paid jobs are. Naturally, there are days were children can be a nuisance, but that does not mean that children are generally the equivalent of a job. They are your children in the first place.

Kajjo


----------



## HIEROPHANT

mirx said:


> Hahaha, you're a very practical man and I hope you find a woman just as practical.
> 
> In many countries, usually where many inequalities exist between men and women, the times you gave for each of the chores actually takes much longer, example in a village.
> 
> Cooking: three full meals a day and varied dishes, breakfast, lunch and dinner, one hour for each (since she is a housewife everything is homemade). 3 hrs everyday.
> Washing: is done by hand, so give it all saturday and wednesday mornings to be complete. 10 hrs a week.
> Ironing: 3 hrs of the same saturaday.
> Cleaning: Floors in latin cultures are made of tiles and so are swept and mopped mostly everyday, give this task half an hour e/d for an experienced housewife. 4 hrs a week.
> Gardening, or maintenance of the patio, back yards if you have one, at least 2o min everyday plus a full morning on Sunday.
> Shopping: agree with you,
> And there are a lot minute things that a housewife does and that require time, for expample my mom would sew our clothes herself when they got torn, making sure all the doors and windows were locked before going to bed, when we were children she used to select the clothes we were going to use the next day, prepare the lunch for husband and kids for the next day -I am not talking about sticking a bag of potatoe chips and a chocolate bar in box, I am talking about real food- She always made sure the bills got paid, also checked on our homeworks and many, many other things that I am obviously missing. Believe me she did a lot.
> 
> She didn't work anywhere else so it was understandable that she tried to keep herself busy. But when a husband and the wife both work, they both too need to pitch in.
> 
> My laughter is genuine so don't get offended, bty I wish I lived in a castle. I live with male roomates and of course the house is a pig pen, I DON'T SEE THE DIRT.


 
Your times are really strange, for example do you think it's possible someone without the washing machine to spend 3 hours ironing (for the clothes to go to the office??)? Or, the tiles for sure don't need to be cleaned everyday. Who works don't have lunch and breakfast at home (or if he/she has breakfast, for sure don't take 1 hour for it).

But doesn't matter.
I just don't understand why do women prostest against being housewives.


----------



## mirx

HIEROPHANT said:


> Your times are really strange, for example do you think it's possible someone without the washing machine to spend 3 hours ironing (for the clothes to go to the office??)? Or, the tiles for sure don't need to be cleaned everyday. Who works don't have lunch and breakfast at home (or if he/she has breakfast, for sure don't take 1 hour for it).
> 
> But doesn't matter.
> I just don't understand why do women prostest against being housewives.


 
Because the ones who do it secretly want to be man, or have issues, or are just not happy with their lives. 

I set those times, for a woman who's a fulltime housewife and that doens't do anything else but being a housewife. Of course she she doesn't work elsewhere and has to make breakfast, lunch and dinnes.

Kajjo I also think this is stupid. And I also agree that a parent (for me it should be the mother) should stay home and raise the kids.
I disagree that satying home is relaxing, it can be painfully boring, depressing, frustrating, suicidal.


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## daviesri

Just to get back on topic, I would say women are pretty equal to men in our country.  True there are some discrepancies, but compared to 30 years ago, we are more equal.  

My wife and I make close to the same amount and share the chores at our home.  My wife can go where ever she want and wear what ever she chooses.  She even gets extra perks at clubs for Ladies Night where she gets in free and gets cheaper drinks.  

In reference to a previous posting about it unfair about women not having to register for the military draft in the US.  Call me old fashioned but I would not want to see women die beside me.  It would be hard enough with my fellow men, but I would have issues with a woman.


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## Sepia

Brioche said:


> ...
> 
> I don't believe that women should get half on divorce. It should be half-and-half from day one.
> 
> ....



That would be nice. Then there would be no risk that she spends more than half the money we have. As it is in most countries I know, either partner can spend all of it. 

I appreciate that you want to limit the rights of women.


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## franzisca

As someone already said, theoretically in Italy men and women have the same rights.
On the practical side, I wish I was born MAN, damn'!
Talking about work, if you are goodlooking, they expect from you little sexual attentions, if you aren't, then good look.
A man boss will always prefer a boy to an ugly girl.


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## heidita

> that people get lost debating what should and should not be. When all the thread-opener wanted to know was what women were seen and treated like in other countries, and _not whether the way they are treated is fair, machista, advantageous, etc_.


 
True, Mirx.

An example of treating women like cattle is this story which happed only a week ago:



> Un grupo de 50 niñas ha marchado por las calles de un pueblo del suroeste de Bangladesh en protesta contra el matrimonio forzoso de una de sus amigas, Habiba Sultana, de 13 años, obligada por su padre a casarse con un joven de 23, ha informado una fuente oficial


 
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/inte...Bangladesh/elpepuint/20070713elpepuint_14/Tes



> 50 girls marching in order to save their schoolmate from being married to a man she didn't even know. The story happened in Bangladesh.


 

The girl was sold by her father. For a European point of view this is quite unbelievable. One might find some extreme cases like this among gypsies (??). But out of the question for most developed countries.

And yes, especially in those countries, women are _definitely _treated differently as this story shows. I have never heard of a boy being sold into marriage.

And let's not talk about China, with the "one child" law, where baby girls, especially in rural areas, are killed or aborted directly as the family needs a boy to help in the fields. Very difficult to imagine this in Europe.


----------



## heidita

Cristina Moreno said:


> I'm from Lebanon where women, in some villages, are still considered unequal to men


 
I included the story of Bangladesh, in India, where girls are still sold by their parents. We had a case here in Spain, where a moroccan father also wanted to marry off his daughter to a much older man for money. The marriage was prevented by the law.

I would like to know, how exactly are women different in your country. So, it only happens in villages? Does this also happen in Cities? In which way? 

I have read, that for example women cannot have a driving license in Arabic countries as they are not allowed to leave the house unattended by a man (husband, brother, father...).

Nevertheless, to a European, this might sound even familiar, as you read so much about these things. But what about Sicily? I visited once, living in a family, and in small villages, very small ones, the women are not to leave the house either alone. It sounded strange to me, when I was there. I had to wait for the sister of the family to get ready to accompany me to buy the newspaper. Shocking , I must say. Of course , I was the "talk-of-the-town" as I even dared to sit in a street café. No woman could be seen , not even accompanied.


----------



## Black Opal

Yes I think that's a fair observation re unmarried women, although times are a-changing.

When I first came to Italy in 1981 I lived near Naples.
I had an italian boyfriend and we went out with his friends and their respective girlfriends. 
All very well except they had to be home by something ridiculous like 9pm. Then their boyfriends/fiancés would drive off to the nearest holiday resort and pick up Scandinavian women for the evening/night. Fact.

One of my main reasons for wanting to get away from the south of Italy was not being able to walk down a street in peace without being followed or otherwise molested BUT things have changed since then. 
Not least I have got older and don't get pestered any more 

My sister-in-law, before she got married to my husband's brother in the 1980s, used to have to take someone with her when she went out with my brother-in-law (like in The Godfather), and if they were at either house they weren't alowed to be there alone. 
It doesn't work in its intent though: she was already pregnant when they got married.


----------



## Black Opal

Sepia said:


> The point is that wher I am at Wilma can spend Freds money. It is her right to do so as soon as they are married.


 
In Italy a married couple can opt out of dividing everything from the moment they get married, it's called *"separazione dei beni"* and means what is his is his, and what is hers is hers.

I don't think many couples opt for it though.


----------



## cuchuflete

As many people seem to have forgotten the thread topic, here it is again:



> *I would like to know how women are treated in your country, if they are equal to men (I know that that is becoming more and more common -thank God!- but I'm from Lebanon where women, in some villages, are still considered unequal to men), how much liberty they're given and if there is any description of "the ideal woman in your country".*


----------



## Nil-the-Frogg

I think that the most important conquest for women in the Western world (and I don't know the situation elsewhere well enough to judge) is the possibility of choosing what they want to do (no to say it is always easy, of course). Marriage is emblematic there. In the past, it was the father who decided who and when his daughter would marry. Now, in most places, a woman can choose who to marry and when, or even not to marry at all.


----------



## Cristina Moreno

heidita said:


> I would like to know, how exactly are women different in your country. So, it only happens in villages? Does this also happen in Cities? In which way?
> 
> I have read, that for example women cannot have a driving license in Arabic countries as they are not allowed to leave the house unattended by a man (husband, brother, father...).


 
May I start by saying that the Arabic countries are evolving (social wise) and that Lebanon is getting more and more exposed to and influenced by the western society, that's why MOST of the people in the cities are less 'traditional' than the people in the villages. But peolpe are changing very fast and the new generation tends more to reject the old 'absurd' traditions and thinking.

When it comes to driving licences, what you mentionned DOESN'T happen in Lebanon. Women over here are more liberated than the women in other Arabic countries where the main religion is Islam which has more restrictions than the Christian religion. And that's why in some Arabic countries (mainly in the KSA), women aren't allowed to go out in public unless they were accompanied by a man (usually their father, brother or husband)


----------



## Paraguayan

Mirá... acá en Paraguay como en todos los paises latinoamericanos somos todos iguales, hombres y mujeres ante la ley... (En tú pais no? verdad?)

O sea nacemos con los mismos derechos y obligaciones.

Ahora en nuestra cultura paraguaya, el hombre es el que generalmente sale a trabajar y la mujer queda en la casa al cuidado de los hijos, de la casa, la comida, lavar ropa, en fin tareas domésticas (hasta la generación de mi abuela eso era lo más común)

Pero ahora la mujer también trabaja, entoces existen familias en las que tanto el padre como la madre trabajan, y esto se dá más en las ciudades.

En el plano profesional, la mujer se manifiesta cada vez más. Puede decirse que esto incide en su liberación económica, y moralmente en una elevación del acento de prestigio.  Aunque la mujer actúa indefectiblemente dentro de las pautas de pensamiento masculino.

En la política la mujer comienza a hacerse notar, acá en Paraguay uno de los candidatos a presidente más importantes es una mujer, Blanca Ovelar se llama.

Chile tiene una presidenta se llama Michelle Bachelet


----------



## Cristina Moreno

Paraguayan said:


> (En tú pais no? verdad?)
> 
> Pero ahora la mujer también trabaja, entoces existen familias en las que tanto el padre como la madre trabajan, y esto se dá más en las ciudades.


 
En mi pais los hombres y las mujeres son iguales, pero no en todas partes (especialmente en los pueblos). Ademas, las mujeres trabajan tambien aqui y se preocupen de la familia como el hombre. Pero no es comun que los hombres ayudan en las tareas domesticas.
Cristina.


----------



## argentina84

ernest_ said:


> I am not a woman, but I would gladly be one because women really are the "powers that be", at least here in this country. A smile here, a wink there, is enough to get what they want. I experience this terrible power every single day of my life.


 
hahaha Nice post!

Women are more or less equal to men in Buenos Aires, Argentina. I really don't know what happens in the countryside, but in the city we are becomimg more and more autonomous and independent. That is good because we enjoy more rights that the previous generation, but I wish men would go on showimg respect for us, and treating women with politeness and kindness in public places ( and in private places too, off course). It used to be common that men would give their seats to old ladies or pregnant women. That custom is being lost nowedays. A pity!

We have Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner as a candidate for the next presidential elections.


----------



## MatchxGirl

Ok, here in Mexico we have the same rights both, men and women but just written in laws, what it is done is different.  

The ideal woman is a perfect housewife always expecting the orders of the man. The situation is better than... 20 years ago, for example, but there is unequality when a woman applies for a job and other situations. There is a lot of men who feels superior than women, we call it "machismo".


----------



## mirx

MatchxGirl said:


> Ok, here in Mexico we have the same rights both, men and women but just written in laws, what it is done is different.
> 
> The ideal woman is a perfect housewife always expecting the orders of the man. The situation is better than... 20 years ago, for example, but there is unequality when a woman applies for a job and other situations. There is a lot of men who feels superior than women, we call it "machismo".


 
Really?


----------



## MatchxGirl

mirx said:


> Really?



hehehe yes, it's not as bad as it sounds but that's the situation.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

heidita said:


> I included the story of Bangladesh, in India, where girls are still sold by their parents. We had a case here in Spain, where a moroccan father also wanted to marry off his daughter to a much older man for money. The marriage was prevented by the law.
> 
> I would like to know, how exactly are women different in your country. So, it only happens in villages? Does this also happen in Cities? In which way?
> 
> I have read, that for example women cannot have a driving license in Arabic countries as they are not allowed to leave the house unattended by a man (husband, brother, father...).
> 
> Nevertheless, to a European, this might sound even familiar, as you read so much about these things. But what about Sicily? I visited once, living in a family, and in small villages, very small ones, the women are not to leave the house either alone. It sounded strange to me, when I was there. I had to wait for the sister of the family to get ready to accompany me to buy the newspaper. Shocking , I must say. Of course , I was the "talk-of-the-town" as I even dared to sit in a street café. No woman could be seen , not even accompanied.


 
You say!! I have heard about similar cases in the North of Italy!! And as for marrying off the daughters, I would like a comment on this from some Moroccan or somebody close to that culture probably because, since I know cases of perfectly European fathers selling their daughters to prostitution or the like, I want to make sure we are not talking of some marginal cases. Because living in Iran and the Caucasus I have learnt that many things which we consider to be the outrageous practices of the Muslim community (sorry, I am giving this as an example, this might not necessarily be exclusively Muslim practice) are in fact not at all normal there but many Muslims have this peculiar concept (which was quite widespread in the West not that long ago) of keeping mum about anything happening inside the family and not intervening....



Kajjo said:


> Wow, boys and girls, this is a funny thread!
> 
> Seriously, this housewife hour counting is ridiculous. Think about this reasoning:
> 1) Couples with man and woman working full day manage their household chores, too.
> 2) Thus, household chores just CANNOT be a full day job.
> 
> I favor quite strongly one partner staying home and raising children -- if there are children. The reason is that I believe there is no better way to convey social and moral values to children and because I believe children need someone they trust to be there for them. I would never try to undervalue the housekeeping and child-raising job. But fact is, in my point of view, that staying at home is much more relaxed, more more flexible and much less work than having a full day job in a company. Surely, a housewife/househusband can fill their day entirely, but that is not compulsory, but more a consequence of the day being there to be filled.
> 
> Further, please do not consider each interaction with children as work. Playing, talking, doing handicrafts with them is not work in itself. At least it is much nicer work than most paid jobs are. Naturally, there are days were children can be a nuisance, but that does not mean that children are generally the equivalent of a job. They are your children in the first place.
> 
> Kajjo


 
Goodness, somebody put this naive man in charge of the children and the housework for a while and we will immediately know why the birthrates in Germany are so low!!!

I also agree that true equality is not possible if either men or women get some special treatment....
We often complain about some non-Western countries having tougher situation on women but think of one fact: assault of women is punishable in most of them (I am not speculating on how these laws work in practice), yet there is NO legal punishment for assault of men!! Serious!! In most countries of the world you are absolutely free to assault a man(hey ladies! this was no indication for action!!) and as long as we treat people on the basis of their gender (or anything) and not just as human beings created in the image of God (whomever you perceive him to be),
as long as there are some petty differences on either side, there is no true equality on the other. worthy of remembering for both sides...

argentina, don`t think that this may be in fact rather a matter of a general loss of mannerisms than a gender-based thing? I am observing the same with women.. I am talking about giving your place or holding the door....


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## Anakin59

As argentina84 said, here men and women have the same rights in every aspect of life.
Still, in most companies, a woman needs to be outstanding to be in the same position normally ocuppied by a mediocre man. (Or be the wife of a president that wants to retain power by any means)


----------



## Setwale_Charm

Anakin59 said:


> As argentina84 said, here men and women have the same rights in every aspect of life.
> Still, in most companies, a woman needs to be outstanding to be in the same position normally ocuppied by a mediocre man. (Or be the wife of a president that wants to retain power by any means)


 
Well, let me ask you then: what about the famous piropo that visitors so much compain about? Is that a real part of everyday life? is it considered fair treatment of women then?


----------



## argentina84

Anakin59 said:


> Still, in most companies, a woman needs to be outstanding to be in the same position normally ocuppied by a mediocre man. (Or be the wife of a president that wants to retain power by any means)


 
hahaha I agree completely, Anakin! 

And, as regards the famous "piropos", I didn't know foreigners disliked them...on the contrary, and as far as I know, they are one of the things they like about our culture. And "piropos" are not only given to women, I must say. e.g. last wednesday, a woman said nice things to a man at the bank. He blushed, but it wasn't embarrasing. It's normal..and many times we expect to be complimented. 

Off course, sometimes people get off the line, I mean, they are disrespectful, but those expressions are not called "piropos" but "groserías" (rude words).


----------



## Setwale_Charm

argentina84 said:


> hahaha I agree completely, Anakin!
> 
> And, as regards the famous "piropos", I didn't know foreigners disliked them...on the contrary, and as far as I know, they are one of the things they like about our culture. And "piropos" are not only given to women, I must say. e.g. last wednesday, a woman said nice things to a man at the bank. He blushed, but it wasn't embarrasing. It's normal..and many times we expect to be complimented.
> 
> Off course, sometimes people get off the line, I mean, they are disrespectful, but those expressions are not called "piropos" but "groserías" (rude words).


 
What about whistling and confronting a person on the street?


----------



## argentina84

Well...Have you ever been to Argentina? Perhaps you had a really bad experience here...I'm sorry if that happened to you. But we are not all the same. 
I am a young woman...and have never felt assaulted. Some young men have whistled at me..but I only blushed and kept on walking. My advice is...keep on walking, pretending you have not heard them. That's it. But that does not make me feel bad or like I am being treated differently because I am a woman. I have a good job, I study what I want, I can spend my money on the things I want...I feel free..and all the Argentinian women I know feel free. Gender is not a reason for dicrimination here, but social status and money power, as I have already said.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

No, no, I am not speaking from personal experience 
but then personal experience is an uncertain thing since it is all very much based on chance: I have never felt any unfair treatment on the part of any Latin American at all and have never met with any crime in South Africa, this does not lead to my claiming that eveything is fine and all who talk about it are inventing things though....
  I was basing my question on the numerous complaints and especially 'cultural' instructions given to people going to live and work in a certain country. Wanted to know your opinion on this.


----------



## argentina84

oh ok! So I feel better now! Sometimes it is very embarrasing to know that someone has been mistreated in your country. At least I feel really bad. I wish Argentina were different in some aspects, but I have never felt discriminated on the basis of gender here. I have been in other Latin american countries. I have noticed that in other countries, women are more submisive to their husbands than they are in Buenos Aires.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

argentina84 said:


> oh ok! So I feel better now! Sometimes it is very embarrasing to know that someone has been mistreated in your country. At least I feel really bad. I wish Argentina were different in some aspects, but I have never felt discriminated on the basis of gender here. I have been in other Latin american countries. I have noticed that in other countries, women are more submisive to their husbands than they are in Buenos Aires.


 
What about the Argentinian province and Chile?
 I am thinking of moving there so I`m interested.


----------



## UPILUPI

Hola a todos!!!  Cristina I'm an arab in Chile, my father is very strict in what women can do and what they can't, specifically in the relatioship with men.  For example my 4 brothers could do whatever they wanted, go to parties and otuside the city with no conflict at all, but my sister and I had different ruling.  But that didn't kept us from going to the university and studying whatever we wanted.  Nowadays my sister has a very important charge in a bank, she's one of the mos important managers (I'm an artist so I never serched for that type of job) and she work's a lot....
My point is that eventhough we have a women as a president, we still have some differences from men.  A women in Chile can be very qualified as a professional but she'll never have the same salary as a men.  On the other hand women are discriminated when applying to a job, because we can get pregnant, and that means a lot of expenses for a company,(pre and post natal, absences because the kid is sick, etc), and aslo because in the majority women put family first and work after.... Many times men are preffered over women, even thgough they are less qualified.   There's also the pressure over women, because we feel obliged to demonstrate that we can do a good job, even better than men...
Anyhow there was this survey to what workers prefered as a boss, Men or women.... guess who won!!!!!    Our gender, of course, at least in Chile, working people prefer to have a women boss over men!!!!  it seems to be that we understand more...


----------



## heidita

Setwale_Charm said:


> Goodness, somebody put this naive man in charge of the children and the housework for a while and we will immediately know why the birthrates in Germany are so low!!!


 
Birthrates are so low because both members of the marriage work. It is almost impossible to find a marriage where only one member works. Life is expensive in Germany and , women are very self-conscious and want to do other things, than "only" housework.

IN any case, as I said before, I agree with Kajjo. There is no such thing as a good job, in my opinion, as you always have the boss on your back. 

Freedom of choice is what you have as a housewife. Liberty at least to choose your own timetable. And no boss. You are your own boss. At least in most European countries. 

This does not apply to Arabic countries or Muslim communities, I suppose.


----------



## heidita

Setwale_Charm said:


> assault of women is punishable in most of them (I am not speculating on how these laws work in practice


 
This is pure theory. In Spain so far, 44 women have died at the hands of their couples. 
I agree though, at least the law exists. One step at a time, as it seems.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

heidita said:


> Birthrates are so low because both members of the marriage work. It is almost impossible to find a marriage where only one member works. Life is expensive in Germany and , women are very self-conscious and want to do other things, than "only" housework.
> 
> IN any case, as I said before, I agree with Kajjo. There is no such thing as a good job, in my opinion, as you always have the boss on your back.
> 
> Freedom of choice is what you have as a housewife. Liberty at least to choose your own timetable. And no boss. You are your own boss. At least in most European countries.
> 
> This does not apply to Arabic countries or Muslim communities, I suppose.


 
You seriously think that life in the Muslim countries is that radically different from that bei uns? I wonder...(believe me, most Third World women at least are no less involved in work than men, esp. if that is agricultural)
 I agree that people have other priorities and are "too busy" to have children these days, however, the more egalitarian the society is, the less burden is imposed on womens shoulders, i.e. the more involved men are at all levels, the ghigher are the birthrates generally. In Germany my impression was more of that of a rather patriarchal country, not willing to accomodate women`s needs, unlike Scandinavia (Heidita, keine Angst, deutsche Maenner sind sowieso die besten!!) 
And as for punishability", imagine what would happen in Spain if this was not punishable!!! They would have the 3 thousand victims of Pakistan or the 14 thousand of Russia.


----------



## Sepia

Black Opal said:


> In Italy a married couple can opt out of dividing everything from the moment they get married, it's called *"separazione dei beni"* and means what is his is his, and what is hers is hers.
> 
> I don't think many couples opt for it though.



I think you can in most democratic countries. 

I never said they could not. Just said, they did not have to. If you are not too sure of the long term intentions of your future spouse it is a good solution. 

But after all I mentioned it (to repeat it once again) that people often make a male/female problem out of somethint that is not. And some women who claim to want equal rights are deaf and blind when it comes to the points where they have the advantages. 

Like when only men have to serve in the military - Israel is the only exception I know. A discussion that repeated itself over and over again when I was a student went just about like this:

We want equal right.

Fine you shall have it - equal duties as well. Why shouldn't you (women) also serve in the military.

NO WAY - we are the ones that have children.

Stupid argument I think. Boys can be sent away and have their asses blown away in a war, and it should be even worse to give birth to children? Am I responsible for biology being the way it is? If I were, I would be able to give birth to a child too? 
And what about the compensation at the other end of a life span, they have? Women live on the average some 8 years longer. Why don't "they" mention that? Even if the time a woman usually spends being pregnant is considered "waisted time" by the women who argue like this it is a statistical fact that they have a longer life expectation than men.

This is why I still claim that many women do not really want equal rights. Some don't even realize what it means.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

I fail to see how pregnancy can be considered or even referred to as "wasted time"???
 And I cannot comment on any rule as silly as obligation to serve in the army no matter what just on the grounds of gender.


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## Bilma

MatchxGirl said:


> The ideal woman is a perfect housewife always expecting the orders of the man. .


 


I do not think so I am Mexican and no man is going to give me orders. That may be true for some little towns but, thank God, in many, many cities that does not happen anymore!


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## vince

Sepia said:


> This is why I still claim that many women do not really want equal rights. Some don't even realize what it means.



The women who have benefited most from equal legal rights are not the feminists (most of whom are also comfortable with equal responsibilities), but the ungrateful traditionalist women who are happy to enjoy these legal rights while dismissing any new responsibilities.


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## MatchxGirl

Bilma said:


> I do not think so I am Mexican and no man is going to give me orders. That may be true for some little towns but, thank God, in many, many cities that does not happen anymore!




you're right, it happens just in small towns. In many places the conceptions about women are changing, now we can be independent


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## lizd64

vince said:


> The women who have benefited most from equal legal rights are not the feminists (most of whom are also comfortable with equal responsibilities), but the ungrateful traditionalist women who are happy to enjoy these legal rights while dismissing any new responsibilities.


 
 I can't believe what I read here... 
What responsabilities are you talking about exactly? What do you mean by "ungrateful traditionalist women"?


----------



## Setwale_Charm

lizd64 said:


> I can't believe what I read here...
> What responsabilities are you talking about exactly? What do you mean by "ungrateful traditionalist women"?


 
I must confess I have trouble penetrating into this unusual viewpoint too. I am not sure I got it right according to what Vince meant.


----------



## heidita

vince said:


> The women who have benefited most from equal legal rights are not the feminists (most of whom are also comfortable with equal responsibilities), but the ungrateful traditionalist women who are happy to enjoy these legal rights while dismissing any new responsibilities.


 

I also have trouble understanding, _ungrateful traditional woman_ I might be. 

What the heck is that supposed to mean?


----------



## heidita

I am sorry not to see any Turkish posters on this page. I don't know what it might be like for women in Turkey, but I can say what it is like for them in Germany, where we have a lot of Turkish immigrants.

A woman goes always behind her husband in the streets. She is the one to carry the bags, the shopping. She is the one who goes covered from head to toe. She is the one who takes care of the children. You simply NEVER see a Turkish woman in any bar, very seldom in restaurants.
Women do work in shops together with men. 
All this is quite unacceptable for a German society.


----------



## badgrammar

Yes, I was looking for a reply from a Turkish person as well.  Since there is not one, I will offer what I know from being a frequent traveler to that country, where I have many female friends (for those of you who don't know, I'm also a woman).  

Turkey seems to run at two speeds - rural speed and urban speed.  

Amongst my female friends (all city girls, but none from Istanbul), all have gone to the university, two are engineers, one is an IT specialist and one is in medical school.  These women dress like Europeans (if a little more modest/conservative at times, depending on what they are doing, and with some "Eastern" touches).  They work hard and make a fairly decent living, and they live alone, not with their parents.

They behave very much like European women I know - those who like to go to bars and pubs, drink, smoke, talk to men freely, wear bikinis on the beach, etc....  

They very much consider themselves equal to men and have benefitted from the legacy of Attatürk, who eliminated polygamy, the headscarf in public domains, etc., and who promoted women as being the backbone of the country's progress.  They were given the vote in 1934. Women are promoted in education, and in the business world they are taken very seriously.  

From wiki:
The Kemalist reforms brought about a revolutionary change in the status of women through the adoption of Western codes of law in Turkey, in particular the Swiss Civil Code. Women received the right to vote in 1934.

On the other hand, in rural areas, society has remained more traditional and women are relegated to traditional roles, spousal abuse is common, dropping out of school as well.  I suppose I don't have any friends living in that situation, so it would be hard for me to comment on it.

What really surprises me is that among my friends, all but one very much wants to meet a husband, marry, and have children, and for them this means leaving behind their professional life to raise the children.  Childcare centers are few and far between, women are still "expected" to be stay-at-hom moms when they marry.  



heidita said:


> I am sorry not to see any Turkish posters on this page. I don't know what it might be like for women in Turkey, but I can say what it is like for them in Germany, where we have a lot of Turkish immigrants.
> 
> A woman goes always behind her husband in the streets. She is the one to carry the bags, the shopping. She is the one who goes covered from head to toe. She is the one who takes care of the children. You simply NEVER see a Turkish woman in any bar, very seldom in restaurants.
> Women do work in shops together with men.
> All this is quite unacceptable for a German society.



As per Turkish immigrants in other countries, their social structure is different in their adopted country, maybe resembling the more rural aspects of Turkish life due to their social isolation.  

But are you sure you never see any Turkish women in bars?  Or any Turkish papas taking care of the kids (the Turks love children).  No Turkish women in restaurants?   Working in shops? 

I think you see them all the time, you just don't realize it.  How could you, since they don't wear a sign saying "Türk", they are dressed like everyone else, and are probably speaking impeccable (or very lightly accented) German?  While there may well be concentrations of immigrant Turks in certain areas, many, many immigrant, and first and second generation Turks have completely integrated!  They would be indistinguishable from anyone else... There is no typical Turkish physionomy to distinguish them. 

Anyway, that's my take on it, but like Heidita, I would love to hear from Turkish posters.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

badgrammar said:


> Yes, I was looking for a reply from a Turkish person as well. Since there is not one, I will offer what I know from being a frequent traveler to that country, where I have many female friends (for those of you who don't know, I'm also a woman).
> 
> Turkey seems to run at two speeds - rural speed and urban speed.
> 
> Amongst my female friends (all city girls, but none from Istanbul), all have gone to the university, two are engineers, one is an IT specialist and one is in medical school. These women dress like Europeans (if a little more modest/conservative at times, depending on what they are doing, and with some "Eastern" touches). They work hard and make a fairly decent living, and they live alone, not with their parents.
> 
> They behave very much like European women I know - those who like to go to bars and pubs, drink, smoke, talk to men freely, wear bikinis on the beach, etc....
> 
> They very much consider themselves equal to men and have benefitted from the legacy of Attatürk, who eliminated polygamy, the headscarf in public domains, etc., and who promoted women as being the backbone of the country's progress. They were given the vote in 1934. Women are promoted in education, and in the business world they are taken very seriously.
> 
> From wiki:
> The Kemalist reforms brought about a revolutionary change in the status of women through the adoption of Western codes of law in Turkey, in particular the Swiss Civil Code. Women received the right to vote in 1934.
> 
> On the other hand, in rural areas, society has remained more traditional and women are relegated to traditional roles, spousal abuse is common, dropping out of school as well. I suppose I don't have any friends living in that situation, so it would be hard for me to comment on it.
> 
> What really surprises me is that among my friends, all but one very much wants to meet a husband, marry, and have children, and for them this means leaving behind their professional life to raise the children. Childcare centers are few and far between, women are still "expected" to be stay-at-hom moms when they marry.
> 
> 
> 
> As per Turkish immigrants in other countries, their social structure is different in their adopted country, maybe resembling the more rural aspects of Turkish life due to their social isolation.
> 
> But are you sure you never see any Turkish women in bars? Or any Turkish papas taking care of the kids (the Turks love children). No Turkish women in restaurants? Working in shops?
> 
> I think you see them all the time, you just don't realize it. How could you, since they don't wear a sign saying "Türk", they are dressed like everyone else, and are probably speaking impeccable (or very lightly accented) German? While there may well be concentrations of immigrant Turks in certain areas, many, many immigrant, and first and second generation Turks have completely integrated! They would be indistinguishable from anyone else... There is no typical Turkish physionomy to distinguish them.
> 
> Anyway, that's my take on it, but like Heidita, I would love to hear from Turkish posters.


 
You must bear in mind though that very often immigrant families are far more conservative, as I noted above, than the families back home although Turkey is an interesting example of a country that much suffers from the effect of being stuck inbetween the traditional society and the modernistic trends.
And may I argue that spousal abuse is not always a sign of a traditional lifestyle, there are other factors that govern and influence that. For instance, Russia and Ukraine have a much larger scale of "grave" spousal abuse than the majority of Islamic countries (by "grave" infliction of grievous bodily harm or homicide are usually meant).


----------



## heidita

badgrammar said:


> Turkey seems to run at two speeds - rural speed and urban speed.


You are most probably right, badgrammar. I suppose the immigrant one can mostly see are from rural areas in their country.



> But are you sure you never see any Turkish women in bars?


 Never in German bars. I suppose in Turkish bars neither. I haven't seen many.





> No Turkish women in restaurants? Working in shops?


 Working yes, eating not very frequently.


> I think you see them all the time, you just don't realize it. How could you, since they don't wear a sign saying "Türk", they are dressed like everyone else, and are probably speaking impeccable (or very lightly accented) German?


 
Turkish physionomy is very different from the German one. One does distinguish. Most of the women in Germany, in my city at least, wear the head covered (lots of problems in schools about this matter). Some might not; they are still distinguishable.
Yes, many Turkish people, both men or women, speak German perfectly.


----------



## karuna

heidita said:


> You simply NEVER see a Turkish woman in any bar, very seldom in restaurants.
> Women do work in shops together with men.
> All this is quite unacceptable for a German society.



I am speechless about the fact that it is not acceptable in German society if one doesn't go to bars and restaurants. Everyday you can learn something new. I have NEVER gone to any bar in my life and I very seldom go to restaurants. But in Latvia it is viewed as a matter of a personal choice and is completely acceptable unless you force others to go or not to go. Why it is so important for Germans to see everybody going to bars?


----------



## Fernando

I am unaware of the uses in Latvia and partially in Germany. At least in Spain,  if a woman has never gone to a bar, she is either a Martian... or she has never been allowed to.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

karuna said:


> I am speechless about the fact that it is not acceptable in German society if one doesn't go to bars and restaurants. Everyday you can learn something new. I have NEVER gone to any bar in my life and I very seldom go to restaurants. But in Latvia it is viewed as a matter of a personal choice and is completely acceptable unless you force others to go or not to go. Why it is so important for Germans to see everybody going to bars?


 
We are talking about a tendency. A fair number of Germans has never been to a bar either, however, a no less fair number of German women you see there is a proof of that this is not smth frowned upon by the society. Whereas not seeing ANY Turkish women in bars clearly is an indication of some special attitude or situation there.


----------



## karuna

Setwale_Charm said:


> We are talking about a tendency. A fair number of Germans has never been to a bar either, however, a no less fair number of German women you see there is a proof of that this is not smth frowned upon by the society. Whereas not seeing ANY Turkish women in bars clearly is an indication of some special attitude or situation there.



But where is the problem with that? Why Germans are intolerant about that? I would be only glad that there is a certain group of population that never goes to bars. It only means less drinking, less drunk driving and traffic accidents etc. I can understand if they are concerned that Turkish immigrants are stealing, draining their social benefits, using drugs, drinking and not learning the German language or getting education. If anything, it shows a very special attitude indeed.


----------



## heidita

karuna said:


> But where is the problem with that? Why Germans are intolerant about that? I would be only glad that there is a certain group of population that never goes to bars. It only means less drinking, less drunk driving and traffic accidents etc. I can understand if they are concerned that Turkish immigrants are stealing, draining their social benefits, using drugs, drinking and not learning the German language or getting education. If anything, it shows a very special attitude indeed.


 
That's an interesting point of view, karuna. I did not at any moment imply that Germans were not tolerant about that. I am implying, actually I am certain, that_ Turkish men_ are intolerant about their wives, daughters, girlfriends going out: to bars, to cinemas alone, to restaurants...I don't know where you see the problem if two women go to a restaurant or a bar for that matter. this does not necessarily imply to drink. One can have a coffee a soft drink or soda. it is simply a way of meeting friends.
I applaude if you have never been to a bar if you have done so out of your own free will. I cannot believe that the Turkish women living in Germany, and they are really a lot, NEVER want to go out alone! Never want to have a coffee with their friends in a bar. *Just as their men, they certainly do!!*


----------



## Kajjo

karuna said:


> I am speechless about the fact that it is not acceptable in German society if one doesn't go to bars and restaurants. Everyday you can learn something new. I have NEVER gone to any bar in my life and I very seldom go to restaurants. But in Latvia it is viewed as a matter of a personal choice and is completely acceptable unless you force others to go or not to go. Why it is so important for Germans to see everybody going to bars?


No, not at all, you surely misunderstood, Karuna! Germans do not care at all whether someone, man or woman, visits bars or restaurants. This is a non-issue for Germans. Personally, I visit bars very rarely.

The discussion was about what we think about a whole group of people obviously not being allowed to go to bars or restaurants and Heidi assumed, as do I, that the Turkish men forbid their women to do so. Germans are upset because of the obvious lack of liberty.

Kajjo


----------



## badgrammar

heidita said:


> You are most probably right, badgrammar. I suppose the immigrant one can mostly see are from rural areas in their country.
> 
> Never in German bars. I suppose in Turkish bars neither. I haven't seen many. Working yes, eating not very frequently.
> 
> 
> Turkish physionomy is very different from the German one. One does distinguish. Most of the women in Germany, in my city at least, wear the head covered (lots of problems in schools about this matter). Some might not; they are still distinguishable.
> Yes, many Turkish people, both men or women, speak German perfectly.



About the physionomy, I'd find it quite hard to definitely distinguish Turkish people amongst other people from the Mediterranean basin, or from any number of middle-Eastern countries.  I mean, sure, there probably is a stereotypical, you-can-pick-them-out-in-a-crowd "look", such as a way of dressing or behaving.  But amongst other "non-whites", their physical features do not say where they're from.  There are also Turks with light hair and eyes, or who have features that make them look more Asian (Mongolian, for example).  They certainly do not all have what we'd call "olive" skin (dark), blackish-brown hair and dark eyes. 

So if a modern, integrated Turkish woman, man or family is in public, you might not know it.  

But there does seem to be something marked about immigrants often being more conservative and keeping to themselves.  I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for that. 

In any case, I do think many women in that country have acces to a fairly western lifestyle.  

As per spousal abuse, I have _heard_ that such practices as "honor killings" are not rare in the countryside, and there is certainly a lotta' macho mentality left.  So there's still plenty of progress to be made!  I hope someone who lives there can reply...


----------



## Setwale_Charm

badgrammar said:


> About the physionomy, I'd find it quite hard to definitely distinguish Turkish people amongst other people from the Mediterranean basin, or from any number of middle-Eastern countries. I mean, sure, there probably is a stereotypical, you-can-pick-them-out-in-a-crowd "look", such as a way of dressing or behaving. But amongst other "non-whites", their physical features do not say where they're from. There are also Turks with light hair and eyes, or who have features that make them look more Asian (Mongolian, for example). They certainly do not all have what we'd call "olive" skin (dark), blackish-brown hair and dark eyes.
> 
> So if a modern, integrated Turkish woman, man or family is in public, you might not know it.
> 
> But there does seem to be something marked about immigrants often being more conservative and keeping to themselves. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for that.
> 
> In any case, I do think many women in that country have acces to a fairly western lifestyle.
> 
> As per spousal abuse, I have _heard_ that such practices as "honor killings" are not rare in the countryside, and there is certainly a lotta' macho mentality left. So there's still plenty of progress to be made! I hope someone who lives there can reply...


 
Well, I do not mean to turn this into "Turkey discussion", by no means. but there have so far been only two cases in my practice when I witnessed the court people including the judge sniggering at a teenager rape case and congratulating the rapist on being a "brave man": Turkey and Russia and I heard about it happening in Albania from my colleagues. People like Eren Keskin claim this is common practice.
 But again, please, this is not smth about traditionalism or religion, quite the opposite, it is about the loss of the traditional morals and human norms. Women are treated worst in the "transition" societies, not in the deeply consevative ones.


----------



## karuna

Kajjo said:


> The discussion was about what we think about a whole group of people obviously not being allowed to go to bars or restaurants and Heidi assumed, as do I, that the Turkish men forbid their women to do so. Germans are upset because of the obvious lack of liberty.
> 
> Kajjo



So, you assume that the reason why Turkish women don't go to bars is because they are not allowed. Maybe there is such a thing going on but I find it hard to believe to be truth in 100% of cases. There certainly are some single Turkish women who don't have a husband or a boyfriend, so why don't they go to bars? 

It may just be a part of their culture. They surely get their chances to sit together and drink a cup of coffee with friends. They just don't do it in public but at their homes. There might be some pressure from the Turkish men, but I am sure that the pressure from the German society to imbibe alcohol is even stronger, especially among younger people. So, to counteract it they don't go to bars. Otherwise, you will certainly get ridiculed or coaxed, or at least subtly pressured.


----------



## Blehh.

^Agreed.

Also, keep in mind that alcohol is forbidden in Islam, and many Turks choose not to drink because of this. Of course, this hasn't stopped those who do.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

Blehh. said:


> ^Agreed.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that alcohol is forbidden in Islam, and many Turks choose not to drink because of this. Of course, this hasn't stopped those who do.


 
You are not obliged to drink alcohol when in bars, plenty of non-Muslims don`t. Please, do not pretend you are missing the point it is all about social norms of where a woman is to appear or not. Islam equally forbids alcohol-drinking to both men and women. 

It strikes me though that whenever the situation of women in less advanced societies is brought up for discussion, people somehow switch to Islam. forgetting that the situation of women in some pagan tribes of Africa, or in the countries preaching Therevada Buddhism or my! even in the Catholic Latin America is often no better or even worse.


----------



## Blehh.

Setwale_Charm said:


> You are not obliged to drink alcohol when in bars, plenty of non-Muslims don`t. Please, do not pretend you are missing the point it is all about social norms of where a woman is to appear or not. Islam equally forbids alcohol-drinking to both men and women.
> 
> It strikes me though that whenever the situation of women in less advanced societies is brought up for discussion, people somehow switch to Islam. forgetting that the situation of women in some pagan tribes of Africa, or in the countries preaching Therevada Buddhism or my! even in the Catholic Latin America is often no better or even worse.



Just exactly what makes you think I am missing the point? My point is that although it is not right to impose such restrictions on women, we cannot automatically hold animosity towards a Turkish Muslim woman who doesn't go to bars or wears the hijab. Quite frankly, I find the attitudes towards Turks by some Germans to be extremely xenophobic. (But that isn't the point of this thread, now is it? )


----------



## heidita

karuna said:


> There certainly are some single Turkish women who don't have a husband or a boyfriend, so why don't they go to bars?


Mostly: because they have fathers.



> There _might be_ some pressure from the Turkish men, but I am sure that the pressure from the German society to imbibe alcohol is even stronger, especially among younger people.


 
Now that's an assumption which is really on the verge of being insulting. I would like you to expand on that and explain yourself. I will give you the benefit of the doubt: I might have misunderstood.



Setwale_Charm said:


> You are not obliged to drink alcohol when in bars, plenty of non-Muslims don`t. Please, do not pretend you are missing the point it is all about social norms of where a woman is to appear or not. Islam equally forbids alcohol-drinking to both men and women.


 
That's exactly the point. Possibly and most apparently, karuna does not know the way of life of either Turkish people or Germans.



> It strikes me though that whenever the situation of women in less advanced societies is brought up for discussion, people somehow switch to Islam. forgetting that the situation of women in some pagan tribes of Africa, or in the countries preaching Therevada Buddhism or my! even in the Catholic Latin America is often no better or even worse.


 
This is probably true,setwale, but I don't know anything about that life. I do know something, not much, by own experience, from the Turks living in Germany. I wished somebody from there would answer this .



Blehh. said:


> Quite frankly, I find the attitudes towards Turks by some Germans to be extremely xenophobic.


 
How would you know, anyway, Blehh? Have you been there? Don't believe everything you see on TV, dear

I have talked only of what one can SEE in Germany happen. I did not venture at any moment any personal opinion.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

Blehh. said:


> Just exactly what makes you think I am missing the point? My point is that although it is not right to impose such restrictions on women, we cannot automatically hold animosity towards a Turkish Muslim woman who doesn't go to bars or wears the hijab. Quite frankly, I find the attitudes towards Turks by some Germans to be extremely xenophobic. (But that isn't the point of this thread, now is it? )


 
That I have no quarrel with. And nobody`s talking about animosity here, we are only saying that the absence of women in bars indicates the existence of a certain norm or prejudice, as you like it better, it is about the alcohol ban since the latter goes equally for males and females and one is not obliged to drink it when in a bar.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

heidita said:


> Mostly: because they have fathers.


 
I think, not necessarily. I was working with women from the immigrant quartiers in France for a while. It is the atmosphere, the culture, even if there is no-one to forbid you inside your own circle, the surrounding society follows our movements very closely and should you "misbehave", violate the accepted norms, you are viewed as an outcast and may suffer truly grievous consequences. Just think of Samira Belil and the like getting gang-raped for not wearing a hijab etc.
 The same thing I encountered in provincial Russia with not a single Muslim in the neighbourhood. I witnessed women working day and night and part of the night being beaten together with their children and threaten by their drunken husbands who take all their money and do nothing. I ventured to ask why on earth they need husbands like that. I can understand when the husbands actually fulfill their role and work to be heads of the family or otherwise but here? I was told that the attitutes to unmarried or divorced women in these small towns and villages are such that it is far safer to be living like that BUT with a husband. And I can confirm this because right in the Central Russia, in villages girls get gang-raped by drunken youths if they don`t manage to get married by a certain (very early) age. 
 I had similar experiences with some places in Latin America.


----------



## heidita

Setwale, I am rather shocked by your story. Which I cannot understand at all, tell you the truth. One could judge: it is all their won fault. But then, one doesn't know their culture and what they would have to suffer otherwise.. Terrible life and terrible men.


----------



## karuna

Setwale_Charm said:


> You are not obliged to drink alcohol when in bars, plenty of non-Muslims don`t. Please, do not pretend you are missing the point it is all about social norms of where a woman is to appear or not. Islam equally forbids alcohol-drinking to both men and women.



I didn't drink alcohol and in my youth I have experienced extreme pressure from the society because of it therefore I don't go to bars even to drink coffee. If you want to make a point then find better examples. Some social norms are good. I never saw a woman smoking in my childhood. Probably, some women were smoking but never in public. Today I see almost equal proportion of men and women smoking in public. One way to look at it is that previously men didn't allow our women to smoke (which is obviously false). Or another opinion is that it was a social norm that women happily complied. 

At my time the social norms among young men dictated that you should smoke and drink. Today the same to some extent is true among young women as well. I am protesting against both attitudes. It is only plus for Turkish women if they have managed to resist the degradation of their culture more than their men.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

heidita said:


> Setwale, I am rather shocked by your story. Which I cannot understand at all, tell you the truth. One could judge: it is all their won fault. But then, one doesn't know their culture and what they would have to suffer otherwise.. Terrible life and terrible men.


 
well, I do not like putting it that way Men are no worse than women and very often it is women who support such practices and who encourage men to be that way. I know plenty of wonderful men ready to protect and very considerate of other people. Just thinking of some wonderful gorgeous German policemen, oh no!! don`t let me stray off!! you know where my weaknesses lie)
I do not generally believe in that real gap between men and women, it is what people create in accordance with their cultural norms.


----------



## heidita

karuna said:


> I don't drink alcohol and in my youth I have experienced extreme pressure from the society because of it therefore I don't go to bars even to drink coffee.


 
Even though this_ should_ not be true, I am sure this extreme exists. I have just seen in you profile, you are male. And I agree, there is a certain social pressure on men to drink.





> Some social norms are good. I never saw a woman smoking in my childhood.


 
Quite obviously you like this norm. You can't describe a norm as "good" just because it suits you. 





> One way to look at it is that previously men didn't allow our women to smoke (which is obviously false). Or another opinion is that it was a social norm that women happily complied.


A woman *NEVER* _happily_ complies. A woman complies, full stop. Some women are not made to protest and go against their men's rules.





> It is only plus for Turkish women if they have managed to resist the degradation of their culture more than their men.


 
I simply said, women can't be seen in bars. That doesn't mean by any means that they don't drink!


----------



## Setwale_Charm

karuna said:


> I didn't drink alcohol and in my youth I have experienced extreme pressure from the society because of it therefore I don't go to bars even to drink coffee. If you want to make a point then find better examples. Some social norms are good. I never saw a woman smoking in my childhood. Probably, some women were smoking but never in public. Today I see almost equal proportion of men and women smoking in public. One way to look at it is that previously men didn't allow our women to smoke (which is obviously false). Or another opinion is that it was a social norm that women happily complied.
> 
> At my time the social norms among young men dictated that you should smoke and drink. Today the same to some extent is true among young women as well. I am protesting against both attitudes. It is only plus for Turkish women if they have managed to resist the degradation of their culture more than their men.


 You should also find some better examples then than your personal experience. I perfectly know what you are talking about but you are straying off, this is not the topic of the thread, we are not talking about our personal opinions (I think, i have not so far indicated anywhere what I personally feel about Muslim immigrant women never appearing in a bar), we are only trying to determine whether this can be said to be a norm in their community or not. 
 And believe me, people are subject to pressures in any society, nobody forces you, as a rule - not to talk of the examples I cited above - to comply. My Latvian is poor, I confess, but even I know of some colourful expressions to let people know where they should go.


----------



## Blehh.

heidita said:


> Mostly: because they have fathers.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that's an assumption which is really on the verge of being insulting. I would like you to expand on that and explain yourself. I will give you the benefit of the doubt: I might have misunderstood.
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly the point. Possibly and most apparently, karuna does not know the way of life of either Turkish people or Germans.
> 
> 
> 
> This is probably true,setwale, but I don't know anything about that life. I do know something, not much, by own experience, from the Turks living in Germany. I wished somebody from there would answer this .
> 
> 
> 
> How would you know, anyway, Blehh? Have you been there? Don't believe everything you see on TV, dear
> 
> I have talked only of what one can SEE in Germany happen. I did not venture at any moment any personal opinion.



I have met and spoken with numerous Germans who were exchange students at my school. I'm not saying that all Germans are xenophobic, but that I find certain views held by certain people to be xenophobic.


----------



## karuna

Setwale_Charm said:


> You should also find some better examples then than your personal experience. I perfectly know what you are talking about but you are straying off, this is not the topic of the thread, we are not talking about our personal opinions (I think, i have not so far indicated anywhere what I personally feel about Muslim immigrant women never appearing in a bar), we are only trying to determine whether this can be said to be a norm in their community or not.
> And believe me, people are subject to pressures in any society, nobody forces you, as a rule - not to talk of the examples I cited above - to comply. My Latvian is poor, I confess, but even I know of some colourful expressions to let people know where they should go.



I apologize if my way of asking questions sounded rude to you but my English is not so good. I only want to clearly understand how it is that Turkish women not going to bars shows that they are oppression by men.  And all I get is basically "because it is so". You gave clear examples about Russia but I don't see them to be relevant in this case.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

karuna said:


> I apologize if my way of asking questions sounded rude to you but my English is not so good. I only want to clearly understand how it is that Turkish women not going to bars shows that they are oppression by men. And all I get is basically "because it is so". You gave clear examples about Russia but I don't see them to be relevant in this case.


 
Nothing to apologise for. I gave the examples about Samira Belil, Russia etc just in reply to Heidita`s remark that it is not always an actual pressure from some particular members of the family but from the general pattern of thinking of the society.
Again, the fact only shows that women have different rules and conditions applying to them in this community. We are arguing whether that is positive or negative here, at least, I am not. it`s a complicated issue, we are just trying to state: there are evidently different rules for the two sexes in this environment.


----------



## karuna

heidita said:


> Quite obviously you like this norm.



Personally I don't care what other people do. But yes, I wish that people in general would smoke less. 



> You can't describe a norm as "good" just because it suits you.


Smoking is universally recognized as a bad activity. 



> A woman *NEVER* _happily_ complies. A woman complies, full stop. Some women are not made to protest and go against their men's rules.


I happily comply with the rule that I should not drink and drive. If there were a rule that I am not allowed to go to a bar I would happily comply with it too.


----------



## karuna

Setwale_Charm said:


> Again, the fact only shows that women have different rules and conditions applying to them in this community. We are arguing whether that is positive or negative here, at least, I am not. it`s a complicated issue, we are just trying to state: there are evidently different rules for the two sexes in this environment.



Now it makes more sense. It is always most difficult to explain things that are self-evident. Therefore I become too persistent in cases when I don't understand something. I never questioned the existence  of different rules for the two sexes because I consider them to be like a law of nature. For me the question is whether these rules are just and beneficial for all involved or on the contrary they become the source of exploitation and suffering. 

Apparently in Germany the very existence of different rules is considered to be wrong, not just the ones that are exploitative. It is completely different approach that I was not aware of before. Am I correct?


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

Ahem ..... topic, please.  This thread is following too many tangents by now.

Thank you for your anticipated anti-derailing assistance.


----------



## cherine

Cristina Moreno said:


> I would like to know how women are treated in your country, if they are equal to men [...], how much liberty they're given and if there is any description of "the ideal woman in your country".


I don't know about "the ideal woman", but I'll try to answer the other questions 
In my country, Egypt, women have different status according to their social or cultural class.
In poor classes, rural areas, too conservative families, a woman is expected to obey the man, be it her father, brother (even if he's the younger brother!), her husband. In the absence of these (or sometimes even in their presence/life) the uncle should also be obeyed.
In such surroundings, women rarely get education, and if they do they even more rarely go further in their education. If one of them continues her education and "becomes someone" (i.e. get a job, provide for her own life...) she's regarded as an example and/or a miraculous person (by other girls and open minded men) and as a rebel, a rule-breaker (by you can guess who).
Such women get married very young, have many children. If she's lucky, she gets a caring husband, a man who'd treat her with tenderness and kindness. If she's not, she'll get the worst kind of creature: a tyrant who beats her, insults her and treat her as a slave.

The average and higher classes of the Egyptian society is different. Women go to school and if they're good at school, they go to university too. They work and get paid as much as their male colleagues. We have women ministers, judges (it's a recent thing to have female judges in Egypt), directors, university professors...

How much liberty is given to women in Egypt?
Again it depends on the cultural and social class to which the girl or woman belongs. Some girls enjoy total liberty in doing what they want, they choose their husband, their education, go out by night and getting back home at the hours they choose...
Others can't go out without a "chaperon"  don't have much to say about the man they'll marry (but this is getting less and less common these recent years).

Yet, you can consider what I said as generalities, because there's always exceptions. For example, in poorer classes, where conservatism is expected to rule, a girl who goes out to work and provide for her family enjoys some sort of "authority" at home. No one dares ask her where she goes, who she meets, at what hour she leaves home or come back...  So there's no fixed rule about this class either.

On the other hand, a middle-class family that has conservative ideas doesn't give too much freedom to the daughter. She studies and works and chooses her husband, but she's expected to be home before 10P.M, not have male friends....


Cristina Moreno said:


> In Lebanon, if a guy sleeps with a girl, he's a stud and that's something to brag about! But if a girl sleeps with a guy, she's a b**ch!!


Same here.
A guy "enjoys his life" as he wishes, but when chosing a wife, he'll look for a girl who hasn't known any man before him!


heidita said:


> I included the story of Bangladesh, in India, where girls are still sold by their parents. We had a case here in Spain, where a moroccan father also wanted to marry off his daughter to a much older man for money. The marriage was prevented by the law.
> 
> I would like to know, how exactly are women different in your country. So, it only happens in villages? Does this also happen in Cities? In which way?


Only very poor people do this. A "father" gives his daughter for marriage to a man, regardless of age difference or the girl's opinion, provided that the man is rich.
Some girls are given to marriage at a very young age, but according to Egyptian law, the minimum age is of 18 (or 16, I'm not 100% sure), and there are people asking for this minimun to be raised to at least 21.


			
				Heidita said:
			
		

> I have read, that for example women cannot have a driving license in Arabic countries as they are not allowed to leave the house unattended by a man (husband, brother, father...).


The only Arab country that I know of where this applies is Saudi Arabia. All the other Arab countries -as far as I know- are not like that. Many girls of my friends own cars and drive their cars themselves. 
I must admit though, that a lady driver 30 years ago was a rarity, 20 years ago was a bit odd, speciall if she's the driver and her man is sitting beside her and not the other way round  Now, it's a normal thing.



Black Opal said:


> One of my main reasons for wanting to get away from the south of Italy was not being able to walk down a street in peace without being followed or otherwise molested BUT things have changed since then.


I think this is the case of all conservative socities. And in all conservative socities becoming more liberal, things change 



heidita said:


> Freedom of choice is what you have as a housewife. Liberty at least to choose your own timetable. And no boss. You are your own boss. At least in most European countries.
> 
> This does not apply to Arabic countries or Muslim communities, I suppose.


On what basis do you make this supposition?
Some of my female colleagues left work after marriage, because they preferred dedicating their time to their home, and didn't like going to work everyday and having to carry double responsibilities: work and home. Others chose to stay at work, and are assuming their responsibilities fine. It's a matter of personal choice really.



heidita said:


> I don't know what it might be like for women in Turkey, but I can say what it is like for them in Germany, where we have a lot of Turkish immigrants.
> 
> A woman goes always behind her husband in the streets. She is the one to carry the bags, the shopping. She is the one who goes covered from head to toe. She is the one who takes care of the children. You simply NEVER see a Turkish woman in any bar, very seldom in restaurants.
> Women do work in shops together with men.
> All this is quite unacceptable for a German society.


From this point on, the thread became a discussion of Turkish women, which seems a bit strange and narrows the discussion. So, please allow me to chime in from my non-Turkish point of view, assuming that by Turkish you meant Muslim or Middle-Eastern.
I had a teacher from Upper-Egypt (which you can compare to Sicily, at least in older times) who once told us that men in his village would never walk beside their women, nor carry any stuff. But he was different, being educated and having lived in the city, he had a different mentality. And I dare think he's not the only one. And I know things are changing all over Egypt.
Why do I speak of Upper-Egypt? Because I think it's an example of a very conservative society.
But we can't take it as a model for the Egyptian socieyt. First, because not all Egypt is like that and, second, because things are changing. And I think the same applies to all the societies that used to be conservative.

Now for the bar thing.
Yes, you don't have to drink alcohol in a bar, but imagine a woman wearing hijab sitting in a bar, even if she's drinking milk or coffee. Don't you think she'll look weired and attract too many look? Personally, I think so. And personally, I wouldn't go into a bar, even to drink water, because I think I'll look odd.
This doesn't mean that a Muslim or Egyptian or Turkish woman won't go in a bar, I just want to say, that if she does, she'll sure look like anyone else there, in the way she dresses, the language she speaks... so you'll not notice her. And as someone pointed, Turkish people are not necessarily dark skinned, black haired and eyes. On the contrary, many of them have white skin, clear hair and eyes. If they live in Germany and speak German, how would you know they're not Germans?


I'm sorry for the long post, but I thought maybe my words would have some value 
And please excuse any mistakes.


----------



## alexacohen

Wouldn't this discussion be, then, the difference that being able to study meant to women in different countries??
My Turkish female friends have nothing to do with the description provided by heidita, either when in Turkey, or abroad.
But they are educated and cultured women.
I have no doubt that women who have no access to education, who are poor, who are ignorant fare much worse than those who had access to education.
In any country.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

So in Egypt it is more of a class thing really. I think, to an extent it is thus anywhere. Even in England middle-class enjoys more equality between the sexes in various terms than the poorest and the richest.
  By the way,the minimum age for marriage in Russia is 14! 
  And as for the very Turkey of this thread, I think, there is a notable difference between Istanbul and the eastern regions where the population is mainly represented by Kurdish villagers. 
 I feel almost itschy to start a thread on Men in Your Country.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

heidita said:


> Setwale, I am rather shocked by your story. Which I cannot understand at all, tell you the truth. One could judge: it is all their won fault. But then, one doesn't know their culture and what they would have to suffer otherwise.. Terrible life and terrible men.


 

Forgive me, Heidi, but it is my turn to not understand your comment at all. This is surely not the first time you hear about such incidents and such attitutes. What about the Mufti in Australia describing the gang rapes by Muslim youths? You surely have heard about similar cases in Europe...
 By the way, I very much doubt that the Mufti would have gotten away with it in his home country Egypt as he did in the democratic Australia.


----------



## Harry Batt

Equality has many facets. In the American legal field women have gained and have lost their position. Law suits seeking redress for sexual harassment have chilled the macho urge to make life miserable for female co-workers. Men have faced discrimination for decades from courts in matters of child custody and support. The trend today finds judicial decisions which award child custody without resorting to that old saw that "the child's interest is best served by being with his/her mother." The courts are now giving options to  the children who favor their father. It is interesting to note that the ultra-conservative, Bible based newly Bush appointed Supreme Court justices have sharpley reduced a woman's right to sue in matters of inequality in the workplace.


----------



## badgrammar

Cherine, what an excellent post, very informative and well thought out, terrific observations8  Thanks!


----------



## heidita

cherine said:


> she'll get the worst kind of creature: a tyrant who beats her, insults her and treat her as a slave.


 
The question which arises here: does the husband face punishment for this behaviour?


> From this point on, the thread became a discussion of Turkish women, which seems a bit strange and narrows the discussion. So, please allow me to chime in from my non-Turkish point of view, assuming that by Turkish you meant Muslim or Middle-Eastern.


 I don't know any other Muslim women _closer_ except Turks.



> Yes, you don't have to drink alcohol in a bar, but imagine a woman wearing hijab sitting in a bar, even if she's drinking milk or coffee. Don't you think she'll look weired and attract too many look? Personally, I think so. And personally, I wouldn't go into a bar, even to drink water, because I think I'll look odd.


 
This is true. But many women are seen in bars in Germany, not drinking any alcohol at all. I was just making the difference between Turkish men and women. Men do go to bars. They actually have their own bars, where they normally drink tea. So, would a woman wearing a hijab look strange their, too? And I assure you, you do not see women in these bars or any bar for that matter. 





> Turkish people are not necessarily dark skinned, black haired and eyes. On the contrary, many of them have white skin, clear hair and eyes. If they live in Germany and speak German, how would you know they're not Germans?


 
There are also dark haired and dark eyed Germans. Not everybody is blond and blue-eyed. Nevertheless, one notices. Putting myself as an example: I am always taken for a foreigner here in Spain. There are many Spanish women with fair hair and blue eyes. But one simply notices. 

In any case, I am talking about the_ general_ scene you can see in Germany. I was not implying that ALL women live like this. 



> I'm sorry for the long post, but I thought maybe my words would have some value


I agree with badgrammar, your post was very interesting.


alexacohen said:


> My Turkish female friends have nothing to do with the description provided by heidita, either when in Turkey, or abroad.
> But they are educated and cultured women.
> I have no doubt that women who have no access to education, who are poor, who are ignorant fare much worse than those who had access to education.
> .


 
This is most probably the case. Nonetheless, many girls in Germany schools are obliged by their fathers to wear the hijab or something similar. There have been many discussions about this in Germany.


----------



## heidita

Yesterday I wanted to add something about some gypsies' customs here in Spain (I don't know if this applies to all gypsies). 

I didn't as I didn't want to be called again "xenophobic". But then, I saw this very interesting documentary on TV yesterday, fascinating.

All the story was about a gypsy wedding. Both spouses were interviewed. I was most surprised by the women's statements. 

A woman has to be a virgin on her wedding night. the bride stated that she knew her groom had had other women, but that she "didn't mind". On the other hand she said, she felt proud of her virginity,(which I would so fat think perfectly normal) and that , of course, she was waiting for the wedding night and "el pañuelo". She was actually also proud of this custom and wanted to prove to her husband and all the community that she actually was a virgin.
"El pañuelo" is a very old gypsy habit: if the wife is a virgin, she obviously bleeds, this blood on a handkerchief is shown around all the community on the very wedding night by the women (!!!) of the society. 


> Sobre una cama o mesa colocan una sábana y una almohada, las mujeres arrojan pétalos de rosas y claveles. Todo listo para comprobar la pureza de la novia. Es ahora cuando un gran número de mujeres mayores entran en la sala acompañando a la novia. Junto a ella la "ajuntaora", una de las más ancianas gitanas y la encargada de comprobar la pureza de la novia. Estas mujeres cobran hasta 600 euros por hacer la prueba. Con un pañuelo dispuesto con tres pliegues envuelven una navaja. Se introduce por la vagina.


 
(http://html.rincondelvago.com/cultura-gitana.html)



> holding up a large white handkerchief embroidered in each corner with three red roses (this is because, generations ago, three corners of the handkerchief were twisted together to form a lancet which actually deflowered the girl, and came out stained in blood).


 
http://www.andalucia.com/accounts/myfriendsgypsies.htm

How a woman can be proud of this humiliating is above me. The man stated that he trusted her and asked, what would happen if she proved not to be a virgin, he said, ok, let's not talk about that. 
The bride was actually proud of her future husband having had other women. This proved him to be a stud, as was said before.


----------



## cherine

badgrammar said:


> Cherine, what an excellent post, very informative and well thought out, terrific observations8 Thanks!


Thank _you_. I was just trying to present a different perspective.



heidita said:


> The question which arises here: does the husband face punishment for this behaviour?


If the woman choses to report it, then yes he faces punishment under the Egyptian law. And she gets the right for divorce.


> Men do go to bars. They actually have their own bars, where they normally drink tea. So, would a woman wearing a hijab look strange their, too? And I assure you, you do not see women in these bars or any bar for that matter.


In my opinion, yes a woman in hijab would look very very strange in any bar.


> There are also dark haired and dark eyed Germans. Not everybody is blond and blue-eyed. Nevertheless, one notices.


Are you sure about that? Don't you think there might be exceptions? A friend of mine (Egyptian) was in England a couple of years ago, and some people thought she's Greek or some other nationality, they even didn't believe her when she said she's Egyptian, because to them an Egyptian is a dark skinned person (she has a white skin, and in fact has European blood in her vein, but she is Egyptian).
So, I guess the same would go for any body from anywhere. You see a woman sitting in a bar, you can't tell for sure where she's from.


> I agree with badgrammar, your post was very interesting.


Thanks Heidi.


> This is most probably the case. Nonetheless, many girls in Germany schools are obliged by their fathers to wear the hijab or something similar. There have been many discussions about this in Germany.


Sure, I can't discuss that or deny it, I know it's true. But is it also true that no woman every chooses to wear hijab? In other words: Are you certain that all the women/girl who wear head scarf (or hijab) are forced to do so?


heidita said:


> I didn't as I didn't want to be called again "xenophobic".


I don't think I would call you xenophobic, but I think you need to be more open to accept different cultures. Some things may look abherant to you, when they're very normal to the people practicing -or falling under- them.


> All the story was about a gypsy wedding. Both spouses were interviewed. I was most surprised by the women's statements.


This is precisely what I mean. You were surprised -or maybe even shocked- by the women's statements, when these same women were proud of what they were saying. Doesn't this prove that we need to accept others as they are, as long as they don't impose their culture upon us?


> "El pañuelo" is a very old gypsy habit: if the wife is a virgin, she obviously bleeds, this blood on a handkerchief is shown around all the community on the very wedding night by the women (!!!) of the society.
> How a woman can be proud of this humiliating is above me. The man stated that he trusted her and asked, what would happen if she proved not to be a virgin, he said, ok, let's not talk about that.
> The bride was actually proud of her future husband having had other women. This proved him to be a stud, as was said before.


I'm sorry to give you another shock, Heidi, but this custom is/was also known in Egypt. The difference between is/was depends -again- on the intellectual, cultural or social class of the family.
The "pañuelo" (mandíl in Egyptian Arabic) is a known custom that -to my knowledge- still exists in all classes. The difference is in the "public".
Among ignorant classes, and in older times, yes the family assisted the virginity test  (disgusting and humiliating, I agree with you. But that was the custom) and then an old woman, or the bride's mother, comes out for the people waiting outside -who could very well be the whole village- brandishing the handkerchief like a trophy. This is followed by great jubilation, songs expressing the pride of the father who raised his daughter well and had his honor intact... (I think you can imagine the scenario by imagining this scene taking place in any Medieval village  )

Nowadays, specially in educated families, the (consommation du marriage) is a private matter between the bride and the bride groom, but the handkerchief is still important.

And, needless to say that, like in any conservative/Mediterranean/Middle Eastern... (or however you want to rank my society and the ones similar to it) a man having affairs is ok, a woman or a girl doing it is a .... (all the bad names you can imagine).
It's wrong and unfair and -from a religious point of view- against the religion. But unfortunately, customs sometimes -or many times- prevail upon religion.

P.S. Sorry for the long post. I hope I'm not too boring


----------



## Outsider

cherine said:


> I'm sorry to give you another shock, Heidi, but this custom is/was also known in Egypt.


And I believe it could be found throughout Europe, a couple of centuries ago. How quickly people forget!


----------



## avok

cherine said:


> Now for the bar thing.
> Yes, you don't have to drink alcohol in a bar, but imagine a woman wearing hijab sitting in a bar, even if she's drinking milk or coffee. Don't you think she'll look weired and attract too many look? Personally, I think so. And personally, I wouldn't go into a bar, even to drink water, because I think I'll look odd.


 
Hi cherine, you are totally right. I also think that a woman with head scarf drinking non alcoholic drink in a German bar would look strange.

But the main reason for not seeing any Turkish woman in a bar in Germany is/must be, that bars don't mean anything for a traditional Turkish woman ( or any other traditional Muslim woman). I think those women are more likely to invite their female friends to their houses to drink tea or turkish coffee and they read coffee grounds for fortune telling etc ...

But in Istanbul/Turkey many girls go to bars etc..Ironically, Turkish women in Turkey are more liberal than the Turkish women in Europe. The reasons must be:

* for a reason I do not know, immigrants tend to be more conservative than the people in their origin countries. So, women can be dominated by the males of the household.

*many of the Turkish citizens in Germany are of Kurdish origin. And Kurds in Turkey are very very conservative. This is a very big problem here since many Kurdish girls are killed by their own brothers and fathers ( töre cinayeti ) in the name of "Honor killing".

I remember an incident very well....An innocent Kurdish girl called Güldünya in the east of Turkey was raped by her own cousin but her family thought she brought dishonor to the family and they decided to murder her. Güldünya's two brothers shot her in the middle of the street without feeling any guilt. In another case, the father suffocated her own daughter, the victim of a rape, by using a wire. 
In the other parts of Turkey, people find it very very very hard to understand how a father/brother can murder her own daughter/sister just because she was raped. But no one knows how to stop this disgusting tradition.

Also again in the East of Turkey, raped Kurdish girls are forced by their fathers, brothers, uncles etc..to kill themselves. " Honor suicides"



heidita said:


> There are also dark haired and dark eyed Germans. Not everybody is blond and blue-eyed. Nevertheless, one notices. Putting myself as an example: I am always taken for a foreigner here in Spain. There are many Spanish women with fair hair and blue eyes. But one simply notices.


 
But heidita, there must be some Turkish men and women that you haven't yet noticed in some bar. And there are also successful Turkish women (and men) in Germany: Sibel Kekilli and Birol Ünel are two examples. You can see Sibel and Birol here . They look pretty European to me, would you "simply notice" them in a bar? By the way, Sibel and Birol are like typical Turks in İzmir or İstanbul in Turkey.



cherine said:


> Are you sure about that? Don't you think there might be exceptions? A friend of mine (Egyptian) was in England a couple of years ago, and some people thought she's Greek or some other nationality, they even didn't believe her when she said she's Egyptian, because to them an Egyptian is a dark skinned person (she has a white skin, and in fact has European blood in her vein, but she is Egyptian).
> So, I guess the same would go for any body from anywhere. You see a woman sitting in a bar, you can't tell for sure where she's from.
> 
> Yes, cherine I think you are right. I gave the example right above.
> 
> I'm sorry to give you another shock, Heidi, but this custom is/was also known in Egypt. The difference between is/was depends -again- on the intellectual, cultural or social class of the family.


 
I am sure Heidi won't be shocked but this custom is / was (has been ) known in Turkey too.



heidita said:


> I am sorry not to see any Turkish posters on this page. I don't know what it might be like for women in Turkey, but I can say what it is like for them in Germany, where we have a lot of Turkish immigrants.


 
There are no Turkish posters on the page heidi because we, Turks, are soooooooooooo fed up with this "oppressed turkish women, non-european Turkey, dark-haired turks vs. developped european countries, liberal life style, etc" kind of discussions. I have already had like thousands of them both inside and outside Turkey before our European neighbours.

We are so tired of defending our own values for a lost cause ( it is impossible to change the European way of thinking) 



badgrammar said:


> Yes, I was looking for a reply from a Turkish person as well. Since there is not one, I will offer what I know from being a frequent traveler to that country, where I have many female friends (for those of you who don't know, I'm also a woman).
> 
> Turkey seems to run at two speeds - rural speed and urban speed.
> 
> Amongst my female friends (all city girls, but none from Istanbul), all have gone to the university, two are engineers, one is an IT specialist and one is in medical school. These women dress like Europeans (if a little more modest/conservative at times, depending on what they are doing, and with some "Eastern" touches). They work hard and make a fairly decent living, and they live alone, not with their parents.
> 
> They behave very much like European women I know - those who like to go to bars and pubs, drink, smoke, talk to men freely, wear bikinis on the beach, etc....
> 
> They very much consider themselves equal to men and have benefitted from the legacy of Attatürk, who eliminated polygamy, the headscarf in public domains, etc., and who promoted women as being the backbone of the country's progress. They were given the vote in 1934. Women are promoted in education, and in the business world they are taken very seriously.
> 
> From wiki:
> The Kemalist reforms brought about a revolutionary change in the status of women through the adoption of Western codes of law in Turkey, in particular the Swiss Civil Code. Women received the right to vote in 1934.
> 
> On the other hand, in rural areas, society has remained more traditional and women are relegated to traditional roles, spousal abuse is common, dropping out of school as well. I suppose I don't have any friends living in that situation, so it would be hard for me to comment on it.............................................................
> 
> I think you see them all the time, you just don't realize it. How could you, since they don't wear a sign saying "Türk", they are dressed like everyone else, and are probably speaking impeccable (or very lightly accented) German? While there may well be concentrations of immigrant Turks in certain areas, many, many immigrant, and first and second generation Turks have completely integrated! They would be indistinguishable from anyone else... There is no typical Turkish physionomy to distinguish them.
> 
> Anyway, that's my take on it, but like Heidita, I would love to hear from Turkish posters.


 
Thank you badgrammar!!!!!!!!!! I could not say any better!!!! you are exactly right, each word is right.




karuna said:


> But where is the problem with that? Why Germans are intolerant about that? I would be only glad that there is a certain group of population that never goes to bars. It only means less drinking, less drunk driving and traffic accidents etc.


 
I totally agree with you karunaaa



badgrammar said:


> About the physionomy, I'd find it quite hard to definitely distinguish Turkish people amongst other people from the Mediterranean basin, or from any number of middle-Eastern countries. I mean, sure, there probably is a stereotypical, you-can-pick-them-out-in-a-crowd "look", such as a way of dressing or behaving. But amongst other "non-whites", their physical features do not say where they're from. There are also Turks with light hair and eyes, or who have features that make them look more Asian (Mongolian, for example). They certainly do not all have what we'd call "olive" skin (dark), blackish-brown hair and dark eyes.
> 
> So if a modern, integrated Turkish woman, man or family is in public, you might not know it.


 
Hi badgrammar, again a very accurate observation!!!, you may want to read one of my earlier posts about the Turkish phsionomy 



karuna said:


> .......so why don't they go to bars?
> 
> It may just be a part of their culture. They surely get their chances to sit together and drink a cup of coffee with friends. They just don't do it in public but at their homes.


 
Yes karuna you are also right, it is a part of culture as I tried to express above.


----------



## heidita

cherine said:


> In my opinion, yes a woman in hijab would look very very strange in any bar.


 
What I don't understand here is that everybody sees it quite normal for a man to be in bar, even drinking tea, but not a woman. 
What I have been talking about is the same right for men and women. Wearing a hijab or not, the women should have the same right to go anywhere they please. And the Turkish women in Germany do not seem to have the same rights.


> Don't you think there might be exceptions?


 
Yes, I do. But I insist that it would be unusual. I didn't mean to say, by the way, I would distinguish Turkish women only. I meant "foreign" looking. 
My husband is 190 tall, not very dark skinned in winter and rather "European " looking. He has NEVER been taken for a German in Germany.



> I don't think I would call you xenophobic, but I think you need to be more open to accept different cultures. Some things may look abherant to you, when they're very normal to the people practicing -or falling under- them.
> 
> This is precisely what I mean. You were surprised -or maybe even shocked- by the women's statements, when these same women were proud of what they were saying. Doesn't this prove that we need to accept others as they are, as long as they don't impose their culture upon us?


 
I plead guilty on all accounts. 

Yes, I am shocked when a woman is proud of being humiliated. Yes, I am shocked when somebody says: listen, this is their culture...
Yes, on all accounts, indeed. There are other nice customs like the ablation of the clitoris and the selling of girls to older men, stoning women for adultery...Yes, I am shocked that these "customs" should have survived in this century: All in the name of _"these are their customs"_ and we must accept them!
Well, I don't feel any respect at all for these customs. I think they are intolerable as long as the man doesnt have to suffer the same good old customs. And they do not!
The moment I will see a man wearing a hijab, being stoned for adultery, getting his penis mutilated, on a lesser basis: not entering in bars, carrying the bags....I will say: ok, it is their custom and both men an women have to adapt to this. 



> It's wrong and unfair and -from a religious point of view- against the religion. But unfortunately, customs sometimes -or many times- prevail upon religion.


 
That's a point we agree on, but my intolerance is precisely for he prevailing and quiet acceptance of the "customs". 


> I hope I'm not too boring


 
I assure you that you certainly don't bore me. I think this is a very interesting discussion. 

I also think that Crstiina is getting an intersting insight of how women live in all countries.


----------



## badgrammar

heidita said:


> What I don't understand here is that everybody sees it quite normal for a man to be in bar, even drinking tea, but not a woman.
> What I have been talking about is the same right for men and women. Wearing a hijab or not, the women should have the same right to go anywhere they please. And the Turkish women in Germany do not seem to have the same rights.





avok said:


> But the main reason for not seeing any Turkish woman in a bar in Germany is/must be, that bars don't mean anything for a traditional Turkish woman ( or any other traditional Muslim woman). I think those women are more likely to invite their female friends to their houses to drink tea or turkish coffee and they read coffee grounds for fortune telling etc ...
> 
> ..........But heidita, there must be some Turkish men and women that you haven't yet noticed in some bar. And there are also successful Turkish women (and men) in Germany: Sibel Kekilli and Birol Ünel are two examples. You can see Sibel and Birol here . They look pretty European to me, would you "simply notice" them in a bar? By the way, Sibel and Birol are like typical Turks in İzmir or İstanbul in Turkey.



This is a very good point - that "bars" may not seem to have anything to offer to these women, and they prefer other venues, such as receiving friends in their homes (to read coffee grounds... or sip wine and watch music videos... ).  
Heidita, to respond to the idea that they don't have the "right" to go to bars, it's very presumptuous!  Who says they don't have this right? German law? No. Any posters here?  No.  Their fathers, brothers, husbands?  Perhaps, but... How do you know that?  And then it's not a question of "rights" (as her rights are protected by German law), but of adhering or not to social customs and accepting to obey the men in her life.  I bet many a young immigrant woman has rebeled from her patriarchal  family.  That sounds like a classic tale! 
And I am quite sure that you would be incapable of picking out a Turkish woman in a bar, or anywhere for that matter, if she is dressed like everybody else.  Avok's pictures give an excellent example - the woman in that picture looks far more like "your average urban Turkish girl" than the images I think you have in your mind.



avok said:


> But in Istanbul/Turkey many girls go to bars etc..Ironically, Turkish women in Turkey are more liberal than the Turkish women in Europe. The reasons must be:
> 
> * for a reason I do not know, immigrants tend to be more conservative than the people in their origin countries. So, women can be dominated by the males of the household.
> 
> *many of the Turkish citizens in Germany are of Kurdish origin. And Kurds in Turkey are very very conservative. This is a very big problem here since many Kurdish girls are killed by their own brothers and fathers ( töre cinayeti ) in the name of "Honor killing".



Very good observation...



avok said:


> There are no Turkish posters on the page heidi because we, Turks, are soooooooooooo fed up with this "oppressed turkish women, non-european Turkey, dark-haired turks vs. developped european countries, liberal life style, etc" kind of discussions. I have already had like thousands of them both inside and outside Turkey before our European neighbours.
> We are so tired of defending our own values for a lost cause ( it is impossible to change the European way of thinking)



It is totally understandable that Turks are tired of having to try to explain and justify their society and country to a European community that is largely ignorant of what their society is actually like.  Probably one good reason that fewer and fewer Turks give a %^*/ about becoming part of the EC.  
When you hear how Europeans perceive the women in your country, it must be very frustrating!



avok said:


> Hi badgrammar, again a very accurate observation!!!, you may want to read one of my earlier posts about the Turkish phsionomy



Excellent photos to demonstrate your point!!!  



heidita said:


> The moment I will see a man wearing a hijab, being stoned for adultery, getting his penis mutilated, on a lesser basis: not entering in bars, carrying the bags....I will say: ok, it is their custom and both men an women have to adapt to this.



... let's take a trip to Afghanistan, where both male and female adulterers are stoned.  Let's talk about Muslim boys in many countries who are circumcised, not at birth, but at the age of 7-12 years old as part of a religious ceremony (they are wide-awake).  This happens in Turkey, and _there you will find no similar practice for the girls_ (clitorectomy, etc.).  Or ritual scarring of boys in African countries. There are many places where men also have to comply with customs that are unfair to them - forced to wear a beard and not cut their hair...  Or in Europe, in occidental societies, men have long been the ones forced to carry the bags at the risk of looking like a cad.

Women's rights are very important to me, because they are analogous to human rights...  which are in dire need of defending!  But it is very important not to try to empower ourselves by declaring women as the "Victims" and men as the "Oppressors".  It is not as simple as that.


----------



## mirx

Hi Heidita.

I was also a little bit bothered by your posts, they seem a bit narrow minded to some extent. But well, you pointed out something in this last post that made me reconsider. I was going to say that it is indeed their culture and yes we should accept them.

It is one thing that turkish women (since they're the ones we've been talking about for like the last two apges) don't go to bars because they don't want to and a very different thing is that they don't go because they are not allowed by their husband. From what I've read so far my perception is that you hold the second idea, that is, they're not allowed.

If that is indeed tha case - I don't know as I don't have any connections with Turkish people- , then I agree with you. That must not happen.

As for the woman being a virgin, and going through that process of proving her virginity, I don't see any humilliation at all. In (some of) these cultures virginity is seen as a very valuable gift that a woman offers her husband, and these same women get rewarded with other qualities from their  husbands, maybe braveness, wealth, a caring attitude, an outstanding consideration, etc.

I also agree with you that a foreigner is a foreigner, sometimes it doesn't have to do with the looks but with the behavior, or the person's presence.

About the clitoris thing, it is indeed terrible for my (our) western-ized way of thinking, the same with circumcision that do happen to male babies without their agreement. This is also a cultural thing, however everyone seems ok with it.

I yet have to ask a woman whose clitoris has been cut off, or a circumsized man, when I find out what they think about it, I'll let you (all in the thread) know what my stand is in the issue.

And back to the cultural thing, most of these people grow up with a fixed ideology, so of course they are proud of being virgins, and of being nice housewives who don't drink, and of wearing a veil around their heads that prevents from... - I don't really know what the hijab is supposed to mean.

I personally don't agree with killing anyone by any means, be that stoning after commiting adultery, shooting, electric chairs, etc; absolutely anyone, and that goes for all serial killers, and child molesters and the worst of criminals. 

Open-mindedness is not only about being ok with more relaxed and liberal attitudes, is also about tolerating (note here>> not understanding but tolerating<<) other people's customs no matter how wicked they seem to be.

Equalty between men and women will never be met, because it doesn't exist, we are not equal.

That is, of course, my very personal and hubmle opinion. I am no judge and thus I am unable to judge anyone's cunduct or culture.


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## Setwale_Charm

I must say that I absolutely confirm avok`s statement that the immigrant communities tend to often and in all parts be much more conservative than their compatriots back home. 

 However, Sudanese Turks from your link....that sounds strange to me or am I missing on smth?
 And who is this person who is feature as the Albanian type? She reminds me actually of smb who is not Albanian at all...must be just resemblance then..


----------



## alexacohen

> Originally Posted by *heidita*
> What I don't understand here is that everybody sees it quite normal for a man to be in bar, even drinking tea, but not a woman.
> What I have been talking about is the same right for men and women. Wearing a hijab or not, the women should have the same right to go anywhere they please. And the Turkish women in Germany do not seem to have the same rights.


Can somebody explain to me what drinking in a bar has to do with human rights?
I'm a Spanish woman who never goes into a bar at all.
My family didn't like them. I grew up not liking them, either. 
Family tradition? 
Maybe.
But I'm not forced to stay out of bars. And no one has a right to force me to go into one.
It is entirely my choice. I can't see why Muslim or Turkish women shouldn't be given the same choice without getting labelled as "opressed women".


----------



## Setwale_Charm

alexacohen said:


> Can somebody explain to me what has got drinking in a bar have to do with human rights?
> I'm a Spanish woman who never goes into a bar at all.
> My family didn't like them. I grew up not liking them, either.
> Family tradition?
> Maybe.
> But I'm not forced to stay out of bars. And no one has a right to force me to go into one.
> It is entirely my choice. I can't see why Muslim or Turkish women shouldn't be given the same choice without getting labelled as "oppressed women".


 
You are confusing the matter of your own will and choice (which is just what I have in this respect as well as many other Westerners, I`m sure) with the norms that the community, often rather repressively or even violently, imposes on you.


----------



## alexacohen

Setwale_Charm said:


> You are confusing the matter of your own will and choice (which is just what I have in this respect as well as many other Westerners, I`m sure) with the norms that the community, often rather repressively or even violently, imposes on you.


 
No, I'm not confusing anything at all. 
In my community women don't go into bars, which are regarded as "mostly male". We're not denied the right, if you want to call that a right, of entering one and having a drink.
No one has ever imposed on us any norm. We grew up with them and consider them the right ones. That goes for me and the rest of the women of my community.
What the hell is wrong with that?


----------



## heidita

alexacohen said:


> Can somebody explain to me what drinking in a bar has to do with human rights?
> I'm a Spanish woman who never goes into a bar at all. If this is your CHOICE nothing wrong with that
> But I'm not forced to stay out of bars. And no one has a right to force me to go into one. agreed.
> It is entirely my choice. I can't see why Muslim or Turkish women shouldn't be given the same choice without getting labelled as "opressed women".


 
That is exactly the point. It is your own choice. And I agree with you: Muslim women and Turkish women_ should_ be given this choice .....



Setwale_Charm said:


> You are confusing the matter of your own will and choice (which is just what I have in this respect as well as many other Westerners, I`m sure) with the norms that the community, often rather repressively or even violently, imposes on you.


....as Setwale has already put it.



alexacohen said:


> In my community women don't go into bars, which are regarded as "mostly male". We're not denied the right, if you want to call that a right, of entering one and having a drink.
> No one has ever imposed on us any norm. We grew up with them and consider them the right ones. That goes for me and the rest of the women of my community????.


 
Are you talking for all the women here in Spain? That's really taking up a lot of responsibility, don't you think? 

If you are talking about Spain, this is simply not true. In Spanish society, everybody can do as he/she pleases. Bars, restaurants, theatres...are full of women! And men, of course, more or less in equal amounts.
I presume, we are talking about an age, younger than 70. My mother in law might not have been able to go to a bar or meet her friends alone (anywhere!). I remember her having to ask her husband to go to the cinema with me once. But fortunately things have changed. 
I do hope, Cristina will not get the idea that in Spain, women still have to ask their husbands to go out. There is no such thing as "mostly male" restaurants or bars, or theatres or cinemas....in Spain . Fortunately, women in this society consider it their right to go out wherever and whenever they want.

( I don't know why my taking the example of a simple bar to have a coffee has been taken as as example of "drinking habits". )


----------



## mirx

alexacohen said:


> What the hell is wrong with that?


 
Absolutely nothing wrong.

It's just that some people expect other people to behave in the way they would.

And to get offended and resented for things that these people (the intolerants) would.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

heidita said:


> That is exactly the point. It is your own choice. And I agree with you: Muslim women and Turkish women_ should_ be given this choice .....
> 
> 
> ....as Setwale has already put it.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking for all the women here in Spain? That's really taking up a lot of responsibility, don't you think?
> 
> If you are talking about Spain, this is simply not true. In Spanish society, everybody can do as he/she pleases. Bars, restaurants, theatres...are full of women! And men, of course, more or less in equal amounts.
> I presume, we are talking about an age, younger than 70. My mother in law might not have been able to go to a bar or meet her friends alone (anywhere!). I remember her having to ask her husband to go to the cinema with me once. But fortunately things have changed.
> I do hope, Cristina will not get the idea that in Spain, women still have to ask their husbands to go out. There is no such thing as "mostly male" restaurants or bars, or theatres or cinemas....in Spain . Fortunately, women in this society consider it their right to go out wherever and whenever they want.
> 
> ( I don't know why my taking the example of a simple bar to have a coffee has been taken as as example of "drinking habits". )


 
again, I have to repeat, we are not discussing here what is wrong and what is right.. We are duiscussing how the norm expected for women and the attitudes vary from country to country. We are not talking about preferences or advising you how to live.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

We are getting a bit hinged on that bar-stuff, don`t you think? I am personally far more interested on the issues like family matters, domestic chores, custody of children, violence, harassment, employment opportunities and treatment.


----------



## Chazzwozzer

I had written a long reply when my computer crashed. I'll just have to re-write, but not as long as that one, unfortunately.

As this poster tells, "do you necessarily have to be a man to be a MP?". The representation of women in the parliament is the current issue in Turkey. Only 50 MP's out of 500 members in the parliament are women, but I think it's slightly better than before, although it's still not representative enough. While it's the case in the parliament, women are in charge of chairman, deputy chairman and attorney-general of Turkish State Council and according to Hürriyet, Turkish Council of State has much more women members than the countries with dominant women population such as Iceland and Romania.



heidita said:


> I am sorry not to see any Turkish posters on this page. I don't know what it might be like for women in Turkey, but I can say what it is like for them in Germany, where we have a lot of Turkish immigrants.


I'm sure heidita already knows this, but I think I need to point out that the term "Turkish immigrant" refers to not only Turks, but also _and sometimes_ mainly Kurds. Those immigrants come from predominantly Kurdish cities in rural and poorly-developed parts of Eastern Turkey, where life is not very Europeanized. I'm not familiar with that culture, so I don't think it's fair to talk about them, but I believe what heidita described reflects the sad, but true reality.



heidita said:


> A woman goes always behind her husband in the streets. She is the one to carry the bags, the shopping. She is the one who goes covered from head to toe. She is the one who takes care of the children. You simply NEVER see a Turkish woman in any bar, very seldom in restaurants.
> Women do work in shops together with men.
> All this is quite unacceptable for a German society.


It's never accepted in the Turkish society at all! Well... at least in the most part of Turkey, mainly Western regions. "Önce bayanlar" (ladies first) is a concept that is now a part of Turkish culture. Having a women carry all the bags is considered to be too rude here. Men have to leave their seats for women in the buses... and many other customs that I believe the opposite in Germany.



badgrammar said:


> As per spousal abuse, I have heard that such practices as "honor killings" are not rare in the countryside, and there is certainly a lotta' macho mentality left. So there's still plenty of progress to be made! I hope someone who lives there can reply...


"Honor killings" are not indeed that rare for the rural Kurdish society in some Eastern regions. The punishment for those who comit a "honor killing" is "life sentence", that is the possibly heaviest penalty in Turkey.



Blehh. said:


> ^Agreed.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that alcohol is forbidden in Islam, and many Turks choose not to drink because of this. Of course, this hasn't stopped those who do.


That's certainly not true, Blehh. Many Turks actually do drink and are proud of their national alcoholic beverage "raki". 



karuna said:


> So, you assume that the reason why Turkish women don't go to bars is because they are not allowed. Maybe there is such a thing going on but I find it hard to believe to be truth in 100% of cases.


"Bar" must be something new for most of those immigrants, who had never been to any other place other than their villages before immigrating to Germany. I think there are more reasons for not going to bars than being not allowed, but I believe this is still the main reason for them. Needless to say though, this case is not like that in Turkey either.


----------



## alexacohen

heidita said:


> Are you talking for all the women here in Spain? That's really taking up a lot of responsibility, don't you think?


 
Your words, not mine.
I never said I was talking about "all the women in Spain". I clearly said "my community".



> If you are talking about Spain, this is simply not true.
> 
> There is no such thing as "mostly male" restaurants or bars, or theatres or cinemas....in Spain . Fortunately, women in this society consider it their right to go out wherever and whenever they want.


 
It's you the one who speaks for ALL the women in Spain. And what you say is simply not true.
In small rural villages bars are for the use of males only. Women are not forbidden to enter, certainly. They have all the right to enter if they want to. 
And the right not to enter if they don't want to. And most of them don't want to.
It was you the one who assumed that all Turkish women were_ forced_ to follow the norms imposed on them.
And you can't possibly know. They may choose to follow them because they want to.


----------



## alexacohen

Setwale_Charm said:


> We are duiscussing how the norm expected for women and the attitudes vary from country to country. We are not talking about preferences or advising you how to live.


 
Really?



> Originally Posted by *heidita*
> You simply NEVER see a Turkish woman in any bar, very seldom in restaurants.
> Women do work in shops together with men.
> All this is quite unacceptable for a German society.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

alexacohen said:


> Really?


 
Most certainly We try to.


----------



## alexacohen

> Originally Posted by *heidita*
> Nonetheless, many girls in Germany schools are obliged by their fathers to wear the hijab or something similar. There have been many discussions about this in Germany.


Let's turn the tables, then.
Let's say that in Australia the norm is for all women NOT to cover their breasts, and every Aussie woman goes to work, goes for a walk, goes to school and to the University showing her breasts off.
And that I have to emigrate to Australia, for whatever the reason.
I would never comply with that norm. And I would forbid my daughters to comply with that norm. 
Possibly my daughters would object. Teenagers do. But still, I would insist that they wore their bras and t-shirts.
And the bare-breasted Aussies, if they are truly democratic, should respect my point of view. 
We are not talking about human rights here, it's just a way of living and thinking.
Why should a way of thinking, however different, be unacceptable?
Wearing a hijab, or drinking in cafeterias, are not unalienable human rights, but personal choices.
That is what I objected to.  That somehow, human rights got mixed up with personal (or community) choices in this thread.


----------



## heidita

alexacohen said:


> but personal choices.


No, I was talking about personal choices all the time. 

And yes, your daughter should be able to walk bear-breasted, off age, if she wished to. That is personal choice. I am talking about grown up women, not children. And grown up men, of course.

(I think I have made myself clear on that point. If you wish to expand on that, please do so privately.)


----------



## Setwale_Charm

alexacohen said:


> Let's turn the tables, then.
> Let's say that in Australia the norm is for all women NOT to cover their breasts, and every Aussie woman goes to work, goes for a walk, goes to school and to the University showing her breasts off.
> And that I have to emigrate to Australia, for whatever the reason.
> I would never comply with that norm. And I would forbid my daughters to comply with that norm.
> Possibly my daughters would object. Teenagers do. But still, I would insist that they wore their bras and t-shirts.
> And the bare-breasted Aussies, if they are truly democratic, should respect my point of view.
> We are not talking about human rights here, it's just a way of living and thinking.
> Why should a way of thinking, however different, be unacceptable?
> Wearing a hijab, or drinking in cafeterias, are not unalienable human rights, but personal choices.
> That is what I objected to. That somehow, human rights got mixed up with personal (or community) choices in this thread.


 
No dear.. that`s the point!! What on earth you mean "have to emigrate"? If you HAVE to immigrate into a country, then you HAVE to obey the rules, maybe be this doe snot go down to the slightest, or maybe it does, but the people of this land DO NOT FORCE YOU in, they did not invite you, in fact, in most cases they quite object, so it is not their turn to get accustomed to you, but yours.
 I would not like to go bare-breasted, therefore, I do not go to a land that requires such a thing. Do you believe you`ll be allowed into Saudi Arabia, for example, without being fully covered?


----------



## Setwale_Charm

heidita said:


> No, I was talking about personal choices all the time.
> 
> And yes, your daughter should be able to walk bear-breasted, off age, if she wished to. That is personal choice. I am talking about grown up women, not children. And grown up men, of course.
> 
> (I think I have made myself clear on that point. If you wish to expand on that, please do so privately.)


 
Oh, the eternal thing... Children are just small adults and should be encouraged to make responsible personal choices just like anyone else. That is just what you were talking about, Heidi: when children are forced to comply with the rules which are already alien to them: whether that goes for wearing niqab or wearing mini-skirts.


----------



## badgrammar

Perhaps it's time to turn back to the focus of this thread - what is life like for women in different countries...  I think we established, and this is where the thread got sidetracked, that for Turkish women in Turkey, life is by and large fairly westernized, whereas for Turkish immigrants of the population in some European countries seem to remain ensconced in a patriarchal structure.  And they would seem to follow traditional ways of life.  

In France women are, of course, treated as equals...  except that in reality there are still differences in salaries, and everybody knows that even in couples where both work, women still do most of the housework and childcare (this report comes out every year).  Still, I think we can't complain here, we just have to keep things evolving.  I am always sure that with patience, every decade that goes by brings social and financial "equality" closer.  Every generation improves on the last.  

In the U.S. I think it is pretty much the same thing, although there is always a more conservative or traditionalist force that would prefer to see a return to conventional family values (this often goes hand in hand with religion).


----------



## Setwale_Charm

badgrammar said:


> In the U.S. I think it is pretty much the same thing, although there is always a more conservative or traditionalist force that would prefer to see a return to conventional family values (this often goes hand in hand with religion).


 
Is it in any way regionally marked? or does it depend on the income/origin?


----------



## alexacohen

Setwale_Charm said:


> If you HAVE to immigrate into a country, then you HAVE to obey the rules, maybe be this doe snot go down to the slightest, or maybe it does, but the people of this land DO NOT FORCE YOU in, they did not invite you, in fact, in most cases they quite object, so it is not their turn to get accustomed to you, but yours.
> Do you believe you`ll be allowed into Saudi Arabia, for example, without being fully covered?


 
I don't believe such an stupid thing. If you have to inmigrate into a country, you have to abide by their law. 
But I can't see what choosing what to wear has to do with any law. Except Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan and the like, where there is a law stating what women should wear.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

alexacohen said:


> I don't believe such an stupid thing. If you have to inmigrate into a country, you have to abide by their law.
> But I can't see what choosing what to wear has to do with any law. Except Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan and the like, where there is a law stating what women should wear.


 
The line between the law and the social norms is extremely vague and those who choose to challenge and disobey the norms often find themselves willing to change laws as well. 
 I am not saying that this is necessarily negative, it is a fact. You have to integrate, to respect the culture and norms of the people with whom you came to live. 
There is also such a thing as morals which are not necessarily put down in paper and legalised. Believe me, people with different morals and views can do a lot to you what you consider appalling and inacceptable and still not be punishable by law. The law only provides for some basis cases, ruining the structure of social norms is far more dangerous.


----------



## karuna

Setwale_Charm said:


> The line between the law and the social norms is extremely vague and those who choose to challenge and disobey the norms often find themselves willing to change laws as well.
> I am not saying that this is necessarily negative, it is a fact. You have to integrate, to respect the culture and norms of the people with whom you came to live.
> There is also such a thing as morals which are not necessarily put down in paper and legalised. Believe me, people with different morals and views can do a lot to you what you consider appalling and inacceptable and still not be punishable by law. The law only provides for some basis cases, ruining the structure of social norms is far more dangerous.



But at the same time one should not accept generalized norms as something obligatory. Even the natives can have very different attitudes and belong to different classes with different morals, so why not immigrants? It is not that, for example, in Russia you have to learn to drink in order to blend with the society just because it is accepted as a general norm there. You just have to learn the art of fitting in while retaining your culture. 

For many immigrants the moving to another country is traumatic enough, so they just decide to go with the mainstream. Yesterday, I was reading an in-depth article about Gypsy communities in Latvia and how their women are treated and how they make money by telling fortunes, doing many things that makes people to have a negative attitude towards them. Yet, they have so much loyalty to their families and to children. Their orphans extremely rarely get sent to the children's home because the relatives will always adopt them. And with their fascinating music, love of freedom and nature, I am very happy about diversity in my native country. But I had have to travel to many countries before I could appreciate their way of living in my neighborhood.


----------



## Setwale_Charm

That is true too. You need to have common sense but! remember that the locals have a bit more right to organise their life at their home than an outsider does. If you are a convinced opponent of raw meat eating, do not go to some African countries rather than come and force them to abandon their ways.


----------



## karuna

Setwale_Charm said:


> That is true too. You need to have common sense but! remember that the locals have a bit more right to organise their life at their home than an outsider does. If you are a convinced opponent of raw meat eating, do not go to some African countries rather than come and force them to abandon their ways.



Forcing anyone? No way! But I am sure that many of my Godbrothers in Africa are actively preaching against any meat eating, including raw meat. And people in Africa are very appreciative although life is tough there. It is all about personal and religious freedom that is often suppressed on the pretext of following local traditions even in the western countries.


----------



## alexacohen

Setwale_Charm said:


> remember that the locals have a bit more right to organise their life at their home than an outsider does. If you are a convinced opponent of raw meat eating, do not go to some African countries rather than come and force them to abandon their ways.


 
No one is talking about forcing the locals to abandon their ways. What we said is that, as long as the "outsiders" comply with the law of their new country, there should be nothing wrong with their keeping some traditions and uses from their original country, if these traditions do not break the law.




> To heidita:
> (I think I have made myself clear on that point. If you wish to expand on that, please do so privately)
> Thanks. But no, thanks.
> Alexandra


----------



## avok

alexacohen said:


> ...... as long as the "outsiders" comply with the law of their new country, there should be nothing wrong with their keeping some traditions and uses from their original country, if these traditions do not break the law.


 
I agree with you, keeping some traditions is a sign of tolerance and cultural diversity but, of course, some of these traditions might be dangerous for the society hence they should be under the control of law.



alexacohen said:


> Can somebody explain to me what drinking in a bar has to do with human rights?
> I'm a Spanish woman who never goes into a bar at all.
> My family didn't like them. I grew up not liking them, either.


 
I think, Heidita gave an unfortunate example (being able to go to bars alone) because apparently Muslim women have much more important problems than not being able to go to bars. Maybe the concept of a "bar" is different where heidita lives, I would not know. I usually associate it with drinking, smoking and so-called rock bands. Not suitable for drinking coffee (unlike a café)



> Originally Posted by *Setwale_Charm*
> 
> However, Sudanese Turks from your link....that sounds strange to me or am I missing on smth?
> And who is this person who is feature as the Albanian type? She reminds me actually of smb who is not Albanian at all...must be just resemblance then."


Hi,
Just to answer your off topic question. Yes, you are indeed missing on something. Here we have, Afro-turks, you might be interested in this too.
The Albanian woman is not a "type". She is Candan Erçetin ( a famous singer in Turkey) and she is of Albanian origin just like Ahu Tuğba and Yeşim Salkım, not someone I chose randomly. I also like Şebnem Ferah a Turkish woman rock star of Yugoslavian origin in Turkey. I think these women would give you a better idea about Turkish women.


----------



## heidita

avok said:


> I agree with you, keeping some traditions is a sign of tolerance and cultural diversity but, of course, some of these traditions might be dangerous for the society hence they should be under the control of law.


 
Exactly. Nice comment.





> I think, Heidita gave an unfortunate example (being able to go to bars alone) because apparently Muslim women have much more important problems than not being able to go to bars. Maybe the concept of a "bar" is different where heidita lives, I would not know. I usually associate it with drinking, smoking and so-called rock bands. Not suitable for drinking coffee (unlike a café)


 

Indeed, Avok. I am surprised, but possibly shouldn't be. The concept "bar" especially in Spain is indeed very flexible. I was talking about a simple cafetería, where you can drink anything: coffee, also beer or drinks. (My husband goes to one of these places to have breakfast, for example).But mostly, the typical bar in Spain is considered a meeting place. I did not take this cultural difference into consideration. 
I also limited my claim to bars, as I thought this to be the more "obvious" place one can see any man in Germany.

Another point you mentioned: mostly they are Kurds who live in Germany. I wouldn't know the difference. In Germany I don't think we distinguish between Turks and Kurds. 

Are the cultural differences very obvious? 

I will visit Turkey for the first time in November (which I consider a real treat!) and hope to get e better insight of how women are treated and behave.


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## alexacohen

avok said:


> I agree with you, keeping some traditions is a sign of tolerance and cultural diversity but, of course, some of these traditions might be dangerous for the society hence they should be under the control of law.


 
We talked all the time about traditions which did did not break the law in any way. So we agree here.

I can't think now of any dangerous tradition which is not forbidden by law, at least in Spain.  



> I think, Heidita gave an unfortunate example (being able to go to bars alone) because apparently Muslim women have much more important problems than not being able to go to bars. Maybe the concept of a "bar" is different where heidita lives, I would not know. I usually associate it with drinking, smoking and so-called rock bands.


 
So do I, except for the so-called rock bands. A cafetería or a tetería are different.


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## kinia22

In Canada women are treaten well. I think we are equal to men. I don't feel being  discriminated.


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## Blehh.

If I could, I would try to respond to every post, but I can't. Thank you everyone for clearing up my misconceptions about this. heidita, if I have offended you in any way, I apologize. However, I need to get back to the subject.

I think open-mindedness is key to understanding why Turkish & Kurdish women are treated the way they are in Germany. For many of these women (not all of them), going out and covering up isn't necessarily something they do because they are oppressed, but because they have been doing it all their life. For example, as an American, I wear t-shirts & jeans when I go out. I don't go out naked. If I moved to a different country that didn't have legal restrictions on dress, but people went out naked, I would continue to wear the clothes I did in the U.S. My parents would never let me leave the house naked. Is that forcing me to do what I may not want to do? Yes. Is it necessarily wrong because I am being forced? No. 

And we need to end the mentality that all Turkish women in Germany are oppressed. Some of them may be by German standards, yes, but to assume that they all are oppressed is ridiculous & close-minded. Germany is a democratic society, and it must learn to respect different cultures & mindsets if it is going to stay democratic.


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## Vagabond

Blehh. said:


> I think open-mindedness is key to understanding why Turkish & Kurdish women are treated the way they are in Germany. For many of these women (not all of them), going out and covering up isn't necessarily something they do because they are oppressed, but because they have been doing it all their life. For example, as an American, I wear t-shirts & jeans when I go out. I don't go out naked. If I moved to a different country that didn't have legal restrictions on dress, but people went out naked, I would continue to wear the clothes I did in the U.S. My parents would never let me leave the house naked. Is that forcing me to do what I may not want to do? Yes. Is it necessarily wrong because I am being forced? No.
> 
> And we need to end the mentality that all Turkish women in Germany are oppressed. Some of them may be by German standards, yes, but to assume that they all are oppressed is ridiculous & close-minded. Germany is a democratic society, and it must learn to respect different cultures & mindsets if it is going to stay democratic.


I think heidita's point was the apparent double standard applied to men and women in the Turkish (Kurdish?) community in Germany. Mind you, I have no personal experience whatsoever, all the Turkish people I've ever known were actually from Turkey and not much different than any European.

However: *if *that double standard is indeed applied, there truly is discrimination between the two sexes in whatever society applies them. Yes, it might not be that her father/brother/husband will beat her up if she goes to a cafe; hell, it might even be her mother/grandmother/aunt that will scold her. Still, that is a double standard applied by a society. Whether men are actually the perpetrators of that discrimination or not is irrelevant; the point is, not being given the same options by your own society is oppression. You might choose to comply because you don't want to be stigmatised, or because you don't like conflict, or you don't want to disappoint your parents; but still, it is an extra pressure applied on you, by your society, that is not applied on another social group in the same society. That is discrimination and oppression.

It's not that you *have* to go to bars. It's that you have to be given the option. If you don't go to bars because you don't like them, that's great; but how would you like it if it was a matter of honour for your society that you are forced to go everyday and be stripped off your right of choice?


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## Setwale_Charm

Vagabond said:


> I think heidita's point was the apparent double standard applied to men and women in the Turkish (Kurdish?) community in Germany. Mind you, I have no personal experience whatsoever, all the Turkish people I've ever known were actually from Turkey and not much different than any European.
> 
> However: *if *that double standard is indeed applied, there truly is discrimination between the two sexes in whatever society applies them. Yes, it might not be that her father/brother/husband will beat her up if she goes to a cafe; hell, it might even be her mother/grandmother/aunt that will scold her. Still, that is a double standard applied by a society. Whether men are actually the perpetrators of that discrimination or not is irrelevant; the point is, not being given the same options by your own society is oppression. You might choose to comply because you don't want to be stigmatised, or because you don't like conflict, or you don't want to disappoint your parents; but still, it is an extra pressure applied on you, by your society, that is not applied on another social group in the same society. That is discrimination and oppression.
> 
> It's not that you *have* to go to bars. It's that you have to be given the option. If you don't go to bars because you don't like them, that's great; but how would you like it if it was a matter of honour for your society that you are forced to go everyday and be stripped off your right of choice?


 
A very very sensible point of view that perfectly sums it all, the whole gist of this thread.


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## Katuka

*Moderator note:*
*I merged this new thread to the old one to avoid repetitions. Please check for old threads before opening new ones, to make sure the topic you're interested in hasn't been discussed before.*
*Thanks *

En Chile, el parámetro de lo normal y aceptable para las mujeres es mucho más estrecho que el de otros países (Brasil y Argentina, por ejemplo). 
No se trata de una opinión personal (si así lo fuera mis palabras estarían en rojo transgresor), es un hecho que Chile es un país tradicional y todo lo que escaba de ello puede ser duramente criticado. Eso puede ser facilmente corroborado entre tanto gris de la vestimenta y otras tantas cosas. 


La mujer es alvo de miradas si fuma en vía pública, bebe en lugares públicos antes de las 18:00hrs, invita a alguien a bailar, le gusta el futbol, etc. Lo que marca la personalidad de las mujeres de una forma general, claramente siempre hay excepciones. 


Mi duda recae en la libertad de acción y pensamiento de la mujer en otros países, no cuestiono en absoluto lo moral. 


La mujer suele trabajar, es machista, le gusta pagar la cuenta, asume una actitud pasiva, activa, etc.


Gracias a todos,


Katty


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## alinapopi

Hola, Katty, 

Es bueno saberlo. A lo mejor me toca ir, algún día, a Chile. Pero supongo que la cosa no va más allá: es decir, si fumo por la calle, me mirarán mal y ya está, no?

Saludos,
Alina


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## Adolfo Afogutu

Katuka said:


> *Moderator note:*
> *I merged this new thread to the old one to avoid repetitions. Please check for old threads before opening new ones, to make sure the topic you're interested in hasn't been discussed before.*
> *Thanks *
> 
> En Chile, el parámetro de lo normal y aceptable para las mujeres es mucho más estrecho que el de otros países (Brasil y Argentina, por ejemplo).
> No se trata de una opinión personal (si así lo fuera mis palabras estarían en rojo transgresor), es un hecho que Chile es un país tradicional y todo lo que escaba de ello puede ser duramente criticado. Eso puede ser facilmente corroborado entre tanto gris de la vestimenta y otras tantas cosas.
> 
> 
> La mujer es alvo de miradas si fuma en vía pública, bebe en lugares públicos antes de las 18:00hrs, invita a alguien a bailar, le gusta el futbol, etc. Lo que marca la personalidad de las mujeres de una forma general, claramente siempre hay excepciones.
> 
> 
> Mi duda recae en la libertad de acción y pensamiento de la mujer en otros países, no cuestiono en absoluto lo moral.
> 
> 
> La mujer suele trabajar, es machista, le gusta pagar la cuenta, asume una actitud pasiva, activa, etc.
> 
> 
> Gracias a todos,
> 
> 
> Katty




Muy interesante tu punto de vista. Tu percepción de la realidad de la mujer en Chile es esa, yo la respeto, pero la comparto sólo en parte. Lo que menos comparto de la misma es la afirmación de que la situación de la mujer es mucho mejor en otros países de la región.

Llama mi atención que sea, justo en Chile, donde una mujer (¡y divorciada!), por primera vez en la historia de Sudamérica (y hasta ahora única), logra abrirse camino, por sus propios méritos, en el durísimo y machista mundo de la política, hasta llegar a la máxima posición que puede aspirar: ser presidente de una nación. Algo debe de estar cambiando en Chile, aunque más no sea, lentamente, espero yo. 

Cordial saludo

A.A.


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## Katuka

alinapopi said:


> Hola, Katty,
> 
> Es bueno saberlo. A lo mejor me toca ir, algún día, a Chile. Pero supongo que la cosa no va más allá: es decir, si fumo por la calle, me mirarán mal y ya está, no?
> 
> Saludos,
> Alina


 

¡Hola Alina!

El pueblo chileno es extremadamente educado y culto por lo que no tienes de qué preocuparte, no serás quemada en plaza pública. 
Mi reflexión se refiere a la personalidad de la mujer chilena propiamente tal.
Por otra parte (y para tu tranquilidad), en Chile hay una canción clásica que refleja lo acojedor de su gente:

Campesinos y gentes del pueblo
Te saldrán al encuentro viajero
Y verás como quieren en Chile
Al amigo cuando es forastero.
-*Si vas para Chile*-


Saludos,

Katty


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## bb008

Hola

Yo creo que la mujer tiene un rol muy importante en la sociedad y de eso no quepa dudas, en Venezuela que es un país "Matriarcado" (como quien dice) para no exagerar del 100% un 90% somos las mujeres la cabeza de familia, las que trabajan, mantienen a sus hijos, las que estudian, hay una inmensa población de "Madres Solteras" muy orgullosas de salir adelante con sus hijos (solas sin hombre alguno a su lado llamase como se llame, amigo, novio, padre, marido, abuelo, tío), en las universidades somos mayoría...

Así que es una gran responsabilidad que solo a nosotras nos quedé la formación de un ser humano que debe ser un buen ciudadano (a), un buen padre o madre, un buen hijo o hija, un buen amigo (a), etc., etc., etc.

Igualmente aquellas mujeres que no somos madres tenemos que luchar constantemente por superar roles que la sociedad no esta dispuesta accedernos tan fácilmente y sin embargo allí estamos codo a codo sin desfallecer haciendo lo mejor y dando lo mejor de nosotras mismas en está sociedad en la que nos ha costado ganar tanto terreno.


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## ROSANGELUS

bb008 said:


> Hola
> 
> Yo creo que la mujer tiene un rol muy importante en la sociedad y de eso no quepa dudas, en Venezuela que es un país "Matriarcado" (como quien dice) para no exagerar del 100% un 90% somos las mujeres la cabeza de familia, las que trabajan, mantienen a sus hijos, las que estudian, hay una inmensa población de "Madres Solteras" muy orgullosas de salir adelante con sus hijos (solas sin hombre alguno a su lado llamase como se llame, amigo, novio, padre, marido, abuelo, tío), en las universidades somos mayoría...
> 
> Así que es una gran responsabilidad que solo a nosotras nos quedé la formación de un ser humano que debe ser un buen ciudadano (a), un buen padre o madre, un buen hijo o hija, un buen amigo (a), etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Igualmente aquellas mujeres que no somos madres tenemos que luchar constantemente por superar roles que la sociedad no esta dispuesta accedernos tan fácilmente y sin embargo allí estamos codo a codo sin desfallecer haciendo lo mejor y dando lo mejor de nosotras mismas en está sociedad en la que nos ha costado ganar tanto terreno.


De acuerdo Bb, en un 80% de tu texto, es muy real y muy bello el último parrafo...
Efectivamente en Venezuela predomina la sociedad matrialcal, pero veo con mucha satisfacción, que esta situación, está cambiando, que los hombres estan tomando conciencia, y estan siendo más responsables que años atras...esto no lo notaras de un día para otro, pero si se ve el cambio que aunque es lento, pues pensando en el futuro, es bastante alentador, y nosotras las mujeres debemos ayudar, trabajar en eso, formando hombres de bien , como tu lo dices, y no machos... 

Saludos Cordiales
Rosangelus


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