# mejor (pronunciation, J)



## Yôn

Hola,

I was talking to my older brother, who said he saw a PBS special on languages in which the "j" in "mejor" was pronounced JUST like in the English.

I've never heard of anything like this before. I've come up with all different ways he might have heard it that way, but he insists it was pronounced like an English "j."

So, any truth behind this, or is PBS (my brother) wrong?




Muchas gracias,
Jon


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## Keikikoka

I'm no expert, but I am going to assume he is completely off-base. 

Your brother seems to be saying that the j in mejor makes a soft english g sound (*g*iraffe.) That would be wrong. 

The precise pronunciation of J varies by region, but it is in the range of an english h to a throaty sort of gargly noise (think of the hebrew "H" in Hanukah) 

Anyways, mejor should sound something like "Meh-whore"


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## aleCcowaN

j in English is a voiced consonant
j in Spanish is a breathed consonant no matter which country the speaker is
h in English is also a breathed consonant 

j in Spanish sounds like a strong h in English, or this one souds like a soft j in Spanish


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## KateNicole

I'm wondering if he heard the word _mayor_, and the "y" was pronounced very similarly to an English "j" (which is totally possible).  That's the only explanation I could offer you . . .


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## Yôn

He claims that some of the words with "j" were being pronounced properly, but it was just that one exception and one other word that were different.

So, if PBS knew the right way, why would they do it the wrong way?  Perhaps someone from Spain would be able to offer more detail, as I believe that is where the scene took place.




Thanks,
Jon


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## diegodbs

La palabra "mejor", como cualquier palabra española que se escribe con j, se pronuncia con J. En España ni con h aspirada ni con Y, sino con J.


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## Yôn

So PBS is correct?


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## diegodbs

NO, Pbs no tiene razón, la J española *nunca *se pronuncia como la j de "just".


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## KateNicole

We can't tell you if PBS is correct unless we watch the same program you watched. Don't take this personally, but unless your brother is a native Spanish speaker, you shouldn't necessarily believe his claims. It is very, very easy to mishear things. If the show featured native Spanish speakers, it is probably 99% likely that they pronounced everything correctly. There are many accents that pronounce the y and the ll similar to the English j, so what probably happened is that he heard correctly, but didn't realize which word in particular he was actually hearing.


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## diegodbs

Perhaps your brother misundertood the words "mejor" and "mayor", one of them with J and the other with Y.


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## Yôn

He said it was written on the screen.  And don't worry about me taking anything personally, I'm about as convinced as you are that he's misunderstanding something.




Jon


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## diegodbs

I'm afraid you'll have to tell your brother that he is wrong.  

Spanish pronunciation is an easy one, because there are a number of rules about how to pronounce consonants, and vowels have always the same sound.

These rules have no exception and J is always pronounced as J.

There is a difference between the pronunciation of J in América and Spain. In America the sound of j is softer, as h in "house, home". In Spain J is a velar sound with no equivalent in English.


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## Julián Martínez

tenemos que aclarar dos cosas:
*A*: *ESPAÑOL ESTÁNDAR*: El sonido J  *no* es como  la H en inglés de House, ni en España ni en la América Hispana, el sonido es mas fuerte que la H inglesa, parecido pero haciendo vibrar mas fuerte la garganta.
*B:ZONAS DIALECTALES*: En los paises ribereños del Caribe y en algunos lugares del sur de España la J si se pronuncia como la H inglesa.

De todas formas no hay que hacer un gran drama de esto ya que si pronuncia la J como H de House en lugares de J de español estándar lo entenderán perfectamente.


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## Residente Calle 13

*J* in North and Central Spain sounds a bit like the *ch *in the Scottish _*loch*_. In the rest of the Spanish-speaking world, it sounds more like the *h* in the English _*house*_.

Curiously enough, *h* _did _represent the initial sound in "jump" before the sixteenth century. *Mejor *was once pronounced *[medjor]*. So his brother is not wrong, just five hundred years behind.


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## diegodbs

> So his brother is not wrong, just five hundred years behind.


 
Or the special on languages his brother saw included Ladino.


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## Julián Martínez

Perdona Residente Calle 13 pero no estoy de acuerdo, el sonido J  (_como loch en escocés_) se dice en la mayor parate de España a excepción de algunos lugares del sur, pero no ahí solamente, también en Argentina, en Chile, en Uruguay, Paraguay, Guinea Ecuatorial, la mayor parte de México, Perú y no se si en algún sitio más. Repito que el uso de la J como H inglesa principalmente se da en los paises de habla hispana del Caribe, esto lo digo para que nadie se confunda y crea que el sonido J no es de uso corriente.
Saludos.


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## Residente Calle 13

Julián Martínez said:
			
		

> Perdona Residente Calle 13 pero no estoy de acuerdo, el sonido J  (_como loch en escocés_) se dice en la mayor parate de España a excepción de algunos lugares del sur, pero no ahí solamente, también en Argentina, en Chile, en Uruguay, Paraguay, Guinea Ecuatorial, la mayor parte de México, Perú y no se si en algún sitio más. Repito que el uso de la J como H inglesa principalmente se da en los paises de habla hispana del Caribe, esto lo digo para que nadie se confunda y crea que el sonido J no es de uso corriente.
> Saludos.


Yo tengo amigos argentinos, mexicanos y peruanos y ellos dicen la *J* exactamente igual que yo que hablo como dominicano. Tengo un canal chileno y lo único que noto  es que ellos suelen parecer decir *giente *envez de _*gente*_. De Paraguay no sé. El acento de Guinea Ecuatorial debe ser igual que el del Norte de España ya que ellos también diferencian _*casa *_y _*caza*_.

Todo lo que he leído hasta ahora sobre la fonología del idioma castellano me dice que en toda América se dice [caha] y no [caxa] como en el norte y el centro de España.


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## KateNicole

Residente Calle 13 said:
			
		

> Yo tengo amigos argentinos, mexicanos y peruanos y ellos dicen la *J* exactamente igual que yo que hablo como dominicano. Tengo un canal chileno y lo único que noto es que ellos suelen parecer decir *giente *envez de _*gente*_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yo siempre, siempre noto eso de decir "ie" en vez de "e"!! I also think the way Chileans pronounce the r is unique; they don't seem to roll it _quite_ as much as in other countries, especially in --tr-- combinations, at least according to my two little ears.
Click to expand...


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## vince

Hey everyone, I think the original poster was referring to a show that was perhaps talking about historical linguistics. I don't think a channel as well-known as PBS that serves the community would make such a silly mistake especially when 10% of the U.S. population speaks Spanish.



			
				Yôn said:
			
		

> Hola,
> 
> I was talking to my older brother, who said he saw a PBS special on languages in which the "j" in "mejor" was pronounced JUST like in the English.


I don't know if "j" was pronounced like English, I think it was pronounced more like the Portuguese and French "j".

Just look at Spanish words with " j" whose counterparts in French and Portuguese are written as "ll" / " lh"

hoja = folha / feuille (leaf / sheet)
hija = filha / fille (daughter)
ajo = alho / ail (garlic)

These are/were basically (palatized) L sounds, like Castilian Spanish " ll" (e.g. Sevilla, cigarillo, silla). These L sounds probably evolved into the Portuguese/French sounds just like how today's Spanish "LL" sound evolved in Argentina/Uruguay. Then 500 years ago the J turned into the sound we know today.

Just look at the word "México", it derives from the word "mexica", the word the Aztecs called themselves. The x is pronounced like French/Portuguese j.


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## Residente Calle 13

vince said:
			
		

> Hey everyone, I think the original poster was referring to a show that was perhaps talking about historical linguistics. I don't think a channel as well-known as PBS that serves the community would make such a silly mistake especially when 10% of the U.S. population speaks Spanish.
> 
> 
> I don't know if "j" was pronounced like English, I think it was pronounced more like the Portuguese and French "j".
> 
> Just look at Spanish words with " j" whose counterparts in French and Portuguese are written as "ll" / " lh"
> 
> hoja = folha / feuille (leaf / sheet)
> hija = filha / fille (daughter)
> ajo = alho / ail (garlic)
> 
> These are/were basically (palatized) L sounds, like Castilian Spanish " ll" (e.g. Sevilla, cigarillo, silla). These L sounds probably evolved into the Portuguese/French sounds just like how today's Spanish "LL" sound evolved in Argentina/Uruguay. Then 500 years ago the J turned into the sound we know today.
> 
> Just look at the word "México", it derives from the word "mexica", the word the Aztecs called themselves. The x is pronounced like French/Portuguese j.


Actually, that "x" represented the "sh" sound in the English "show" and the French "chien." That explains why we get Sherry from Xérez and why Italians say "Don Chisciotto" [kishotto]. The Atzecs called themselves "Meshicas."

That sound then turned into /h/ and to /x/ in North and Central Spain. So in Mexico City, people say [méhico] while in Madrid people say [méxico].

The word *lame *in Old Spanish was written "coxo" but was pronounced "cosho" with the "sh" of the English show or the "s" of the Portuguese "nos". It's source was the Vulgar Latin *COXU*.

*I take *in Old Spanish was written "cojo" but was pronounced "coSo" like the "s" in the English "vision" or the "g" in the Portuguese "gente". In other words, a voiced "sh." It's source was the Vulgar Latin *COLLIGO*.

There were regional variations but eventually these two sounds merged to the devoiced "sh" and latter shifted to /x/ in the North and /h/ and the South.


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## roxcyn

Please refer to:

http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/about.html

Click on Launch Spanish Library

Click on Fricativas

Click on [X]
As you see that "j" in Spanish has a distinctive sound...

Click on the other on that looks like an "X" (the one below the [x] before the )..This is how "j" sounds in Spain.

The "j" in Spanish is very similar to the "h" sound in English like h in hat


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## Jellby

I would say that the sound of "j" in Southern Spain is not as soft as English "h", but a bit harder, something of a mix between "hut" and "gut"


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## oxazol

I'm from the southern Spain, and here in most of the areas we pronounce almost like the "h" in hut. Is very soft in the south. But for example in my region (province of Jaen in Andalusia) you can found one of the strongest "j" and just in the next village a "j" like "h" in hut. 
In the rest of Spain the "j" is stronger than "h" in hut.


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## María Madrid

Julián Martínez said:
			
		

> Repito que el uso de la J como H inglesa principalmente se da en los paises de habla hispana del Caribe.


Y en Andalucía y Canarias, que no están precisamente en el Caribe. Saludos,


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## Outsider

Is it possible that there are different fricative realizations for the Spanish _j_?

I usually read that the Spanish _j_ is a voiceless velar fricative [x], but I've also seen it claimed that it's a voiceless uvular fricative [X]... Not that I'd be likely to notice the difference. 

P.S. I know that many, many people pronounce it as , but I'm talking about the other pronunciation(s).


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## Jellby

I would say that velar fricative is more common (I think this is the kind of sound I was referring to), but if asked to pronounce a pure clear "j" sound, most people would produce an uvular fricative. In practice, it doesn't matter.


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