# ille vs iste



## rambler

According to my Latin dictionary, "ille" and "iste" are
both demonstrative adjectives and pronouns, and they
both mean "this, this one, that, that one".
 
Was there any difference at all between these two words (other than their spelling)?
 
Thanks in advance for your help!


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## franz rod

Ille means only that (but there's a "little" exeption).
Iste, according to my Latin-Italian dictionary, means codesto which is a world that doesn't have an exactly traduction in english:  it's referred to something that is near to listener but far away from speaker.  In some context it can also mean this.


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## Probo

Hello: In Latin we´ve got three demonstratives (_hic-haec-hoc, iste-ista-istud _and_ ille-illa-illud)._  The problem is that in some languages exist just two (_this, that _or _celui-ci, celui-là_). In Spanish (and other languages) we´ve got three like in Latin (_este-ese-aquel_), so for us is not difficult to understand the difference between them. The first one (_Hic-este_) is used for an object near the first person, _iste_ is used for an object near the second person and, obviously, the third one, _ille_, is for an object near the third person. 
_Hic puer bonus est._ The child (*this* child) is close to me, the speaker (like Franz said).
_Ista puella pulchra est._ The girl (*that* girl) is close to you, the listener_._
_Illud templum magnum est._ The temple (*that* temple as well, I think) is far from me and far from you (or near a possible third person).
Vt ualeas.


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## Hamlet2508

Probo said:


> Hello: In Latin we´ve got three demonstratives (_hic-haec-hoc, iste-ista-istud _and_ ille-illa-illud)._  The problem is that in some languages exist just two (_this, that _or _celui-ci, celui-là_). In Spanish (and other languages) we´ve got three like in Latin (_este-ese-aquel_), so for us is not difficult to understand the difference between them. The first one (_Hic-este_) is used for an object near the first person, _iste_ is used for an object near the second person and, obviously, the third one, _ille_, is for an object near the third person.
> _Hic puer bonus est._ The child (*this* child) is close to me, the speaker (like Franz said).
> _Ista puella pulchra est._ The girl (*that* girl) is close to you, the listener_._
> _Illud templum magnum est._ The temple (*that* temple as well, I think) is far from me and far from you (or near a possible third person).
> Vt ualeas.



just rounding off Probo's most perfect summary
there also is
*is,ea,id* in Latin which is synonymous with _*hic,haec,hoc*_


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## fragilistic

not to be way off topic or anything... but I was of the impression that when "iste" is used, it sort of has a derogatory feel to it, meaning something along the lines of "that ... of yours" for example... some Ovid...
"sed te decor iste quod optas/esse vetat..." = "but that beauty of yours forbids you to be that which you wish" (Met.1.488-489)
or am I way off base??

fragilistic


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## Hamlet2508

quite true
I noticed more of the same with Cicero's orations


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## BobFSez

Fragilitic's comment — "I was of the impression that when "iste" is used, it sort of has a derogatory feel to it" — confirms what I learned in Latin class 60 years ago.  The speaker would point with his out-thrust chin towards the detested person: That one over there.
In English, a milder form of the same sentiment occurs when someone says, "Hello there!" "Hello" pulls you in; "there" pushes you away.

PS I plan to vote for That One.  The only way to cope with such a derogatory label is to claim it as one's own.  For example, "Quaker" was first used as a term of ridicule. These days most people don't know that isn't their official name. i.e., Society of Friends.


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## Ieon

ille would be considered to be "that" as in more of a genreal term
iste would be more specific as in "that itself"


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## Stoicorum_simia

Iste certainly can be derogatory in tone, but by no means has to be. It depends on the context.


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## Anglo1

I don't know about dictionary deffinitions, but I've learned that (and certainly in Cicero's _in Catilinam_ it is true that) 'iste' is more colloquial than 'ille'. In _in Catilinam_ it is used in a derogatory sense, to insult Catiline, his 'furor', etc.


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