# FR: grand - place de l'adjectif



## vanjoseph

*grand manteau or manteau grand*

when would one know where to put the adjectif? i have seen it in both places in different occasions?  Thanks

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads merged to create this one. See also grand - place de l'adjectif in the Français Seulement forum.


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## kea

we say un grand manteau, but it depends on what you want to say after, for example: un manteau grand comme ca. 
hope it will help


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
If it can provide a little help!
In french, we often tell the most important element first :
You have "un homme" and he is "grand"
What is the most important thing ?
If the main information is it's a "homme", then an information about this man is he is "grand", you must say "un homme grand", if the most important information is that the subject is "grand", then an information is that it's a "grand" subject is it's a "homme", the you must say "un grand homme".

[…]

It's a general idea, it's not strict, because french is a living language but, if in a sentence you start wondering why the adjective is before the noun or why the usual order in the sentence has been changed, think to it, the first word of the expression likely carries the most important information!

Hope it helps !


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## Cath.S.

> If the main information is it's a "homme", then an information about this man is he is "grand", you must say "un homme grand", if the most important information is that the subject is "grand", then an information is that it's a "grand" subject is it's a "homme", the you must say "un grand homme".


Hello, Carnesecchi, you forget to mention the fact that un grand homme and un homme grand do not have the same meaning at all:

un grand homme = un héros, un homme important (aux yeux de l'histoire, par exemple). 
_Napoléon, ce grand homme, était tout petit._

un homme grand = un homme de haute taille


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello, my friend!
What do you mean I forgot ?
It is exactly what I mean ! The position of the word changes it's meaning! Or better, you change the meaning of the word by changing its position!
You give more value to "grand" with "grand homme", it's likely to be his importance, not his size, while in "homme grand" then, "grand" can hardly mean "important", because it's after!
If you say "Napoleon était un petit homme", you have something about "small spirit", if you say "c'était un homme petit" it's the size that comes to mind, because "homme" is more important than "grand".
And you use the first position for the main idea. I know there are lots of discripancies. I don't say it's an absolute rule (we cannot say "c'est un intelligent homme!") and it's far from it.
But I wanted to give to our friends a "cultural intuition" about what could mean, in a french brain, the change of position of a word. They don't have this possibility in english, a "tall man" is a "tall man" and a "big man" is a "big man", they will always wonder why "grand enfant", it's not the same as "enfant grand". I just wanted to give them a very possible way!
Sorry, it would need lots and lots of discussion to set its limits, and it's not the place. And I'm not a linguist, just a guy who had long and interesting talks with american friends, trying to figure what's the difference and what's the same!
I know that I helped some american fellows with this indication, that's why I tried to introduce it here!
Always trying to help!


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## xav

In French, under influence of Germanic (Frank) language, adjectives came before the noun; in Latin, they usually were after it. But long adjectives (3 syllables or more) still remained after. Today, short and frequently used adjectives are normally before the noun, but there are some exceptions :
_une femme blonde_ ; _un chapeau noir_ (same thing for all colors).

A few adjectives may come after or behind the noun, usually without meaning's change (or only a small sliding of stress, as Carnesecchi says)
_un heureux homme - un homme heureux
un cruel sourire - un sourire cruel_
_un méchant garçon - un garçon méchant
une charmante soirée - une soirée charmante
_sometimes with
_un petit enfant - un enfant petit.

_Usually, in this case, the first phrase is "figé" and the use of the adjective is metaphoric : _une bonne femme - une femme bonne_
In some case, this went to the creation of a new word : _un bonhomme - un homme bon. 
un petit-enfant _(= grandson or granddaughter).

Sometimes, with certain nouns, only the metaphoric sense of the adjective (before the noun) exists : you can say _il portait un méchant chapeau _(a bad hat) but you can't write _un chapeau méchant_ - except maybe if you are writing about a world of hats...


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## jakey

As xav suggested, when the adjective goes before the noun, it generally takes on a figurative sense. But the other way around: noun before adjective, it takes on a more literal meaning.


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## LV4-26

Yes, that seems a simple, clear and accurate way of putting it


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## Debra2Debra

Est-ce qu'on peut mettre l'adjectif 'grand' avant le nom pour communiquer 'tall' en anglais au lieu du sens figuratif? Il me semble qu'on dit les deux:

Une grande femme = tall et great
Une femme grande = tall

Est-ce que je me trompe?
Merci


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## Anna.M

No, you're right, except in everyday french "une grande femme" is neater. I'd even venture to say that nobody would use "une femme grande".
Unfortunately there is no strict rules for the position of the adjective in french...
There's an attempt at some guidelines here :
Les deux catégories d'épithètes
Hope it helps !


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## Debra2Debra

Ca m'aide beaucoup. Souvent, dans les manuels de français, on voit le placement de l'adjectif 'grand' parmi les autres adjectifs qui change de sens avant ou après le nom---évidemment, ce n'est pas correct dans ce cas.
Merci Anne


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## thq999

I would like to say 'what my school needs is a larger canteen', and so far I have come up with 'Ce dont mon lycee a besoin, c'est une cantine plus grande'.However, I am unsure about the positioning of 'plus grande' in the sentence. Am I right in putting I after the noun or does it precede it?Any help would be greatly appreciated


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## Maître Capello

Actually both word orders are fine in your example. 

_une cantine plus grande_ 
_une plus grande cantine_


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## Anna-chonger

C'est-à-dire que quand un adjectif prend la forme comparative, sa place devient plus libre ? ou bien c'est la spécificité de "grand" ?


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## Maître Capello

Ce n'est en effet que lorsqu'il est au comparatif que l'on peut le placer plus librement après le substantif.

_une grande cantine_ 
_une cantine grande_  (not really incorrect, but not very natural)


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## joshisanonymous

J'ai compris qu'il y a des adjectifs qu'on peut mettre avant ou après le nom où la mise avant conduirait à un sens figuré et la mise après un sens littéral. Cependant, je trouve «un grand arbre» beaucoup plus souvent qu'«un arbre grand» même si le sens est littéral. Est-ce que la règle ne s'applique pas exactement comme décrite à l'adjectif _grand_?


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## Zorm

Bonjour
J'ai la sensation que lorsqu'on dit "un arbre grand", l'adjectif "grand" perd un peu sa fonction d'épithète pour se rapprocher de la fonction d'attribut du sujet
Je le vois comme une contraction de "un arbre qui est grand"

La nuance est très légère


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## Maître Capello

To be honest, postponing _grand_ as an attributive adjective is not very natural in most examples I can think of. Sometimes it sounds more or less okay, like _un homme grand_; sometimes it sounds terrible, like _un arbre grand_. But in most – if not all – cases we would rather rephrase it, either by putting the adjective before the noun or by using it as a predicative adjective:

_C'est un arbre grand_  → _C'est un grand arbre_  / _Cet arbre est grand_. 
_C'est un chat grand_  → _C'est un grand chat_  / _Ce chat est grand_. 
_C'est un homme grand_ () → _Cet homme est grand_. 

Note that in this last example it is not possible to put the adjective before the noun because its meaning would be different. It would change from "tall" to "great." It is, however, acceptable in the other examples because such a figurative meaning is not possible when talking about a tree or a cat.



joshisanonymous said:


> J'ai compris qu'il y a des adjectifs qu'on peut mettre avant ou après le nom où la mise avant conduirait à un sens figuré et la mise après un sens littéral. […] Est-ce que la règle ne s'applique pas exactement comme décrite à l'adjectif _grand_?


The problem is that there is no such absolute "rule." As shown above, the adjective placement also depends on the type of noun used with _grand_ (human or not).


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