# Origin of Arabic قوطة, quta (tomato)



## Outlandish

Hello everyone,

This post raised my wonder again. The poster, Zooz, suggests that the origin of the word _quta _is probably the Yemeni dialect. I've always thought, only through conjecture as usual, that the word قوطة '_quta_', which is used in some Arab countries for _tomato _came from the word Goth, the famous name of some Germanic tribes. These tribes later spread across Europe.  Everyone have heard a little about the Gothic era with its distinctive art. The Gothics of northern Europe were the first to import tomato from Mexico in the C. 16th. They were the closest to Mediterranean north African countries, which had strong commercial ties with the southern European countries. I thought that the word came through them. The Arabs must have pronounced Goth as _Qoot _(still the same as current pronunciation). As their habit, the Arabs attribute many famous persons to their birthplace and many items to their original habitat. They might had called it _quteya _(the Arabic form of attribution to a race or land like: Egyptian female: _masreya_/ Indian female: _hendeya_), then the word changed from _quteya _(means: of a Gothic nationality/ from the land of the Gothic) to _quta_. I'll be glad to know your academic responses.


----------



## HUMBERT0

The word Tomato comes from Spanish jitomate/tomate which in turns comes from nahuatl *xitomatl* "fruto con ombligo/fruit with a navel".

Strange, I’m no expert but… the last identifiable Gothic kingdoms only survive until 711 CE, and they integrated into the communities where they settled. On the other hand, tomatoes didn’t arrive to Europe until the Spaniards brought them in 1540 CE.

In this Wikipedia article it states: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths
In the 5th and 6th centuries, the Goths became divided as the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths, both of whom established powerful successor states of the Western Roman Empire. In Italy, the Ostrogothic Kingdom established by Theodoric the Great was defeated by the forces of the Eastern Roman Empire after the Gothic Wars. In Hispania, the Visigothic Kingdom, converted to Catholicism by late sixth century, survived until the early eighth century, when it fell to Islam in the Muslim conquest.

The Ostrogothic kingdom persisted until 553 under Teia, when Italy briefly fell back under Byzantine control. This restoration of imperial rule was quickly reversed by the conquest of the Langobards in 568. The Visigothic kingdom lasted longer, until 711 under Roderic, when it was forced to yield to the Muslim Umayyad invasion of the Iberian Peninsula (Al-Andalus).


Though, I don’t know but…it is more plausible that Moriscos learn of them “tomatoes” while in Spain before they were expelled to North Africa, or maybe by way of Italy. It’s just a thought.

From the Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos
On April 9, 1609, King Philip III of Spain decreed the expulsion of the Moriscos. The Moriscos were the descendants of the Muslim population that converted to Christianity under threat of exile from Ferdinand and Isabella in 1502. From 1609 through 1614, the Spanish government systematically forced Moriscos to leave the kingdom for Muslim North Africa.


----------



## origumi

But (if I'm not mistaken) in the north and west other words are used, such as "tomata" in Egypt and "bandora" in the Levant. So the Goth theory needs to explain how this name is used in the far south, Yemen.

There's a similar phenomenon for "corn" (maize). In Yemenite Jewish Arabic it's called "rumi" (= Roman) corn, while in the north and west it's "dura" or "dhura" or similar (with the attribute "northern" attached sometimes to distinguish from sorghum).


----------



## sokol

Outlandish, could you please tell us what nation usually is referred to as "Goths" in Arabic?
I know that the Christian Crusaders in the Middle ages were called "Franconians" by Arabs, so I suppose that "Goth(ic)s" also refers to some later European nation, probably Spaniards? (After all, that was once a Western Gothic kingdom, and they also were the ones who brought tomatoes to Europe.)

As Humberto already has explained you cannot possibly mean "real Goths". 

As for how the name could travel so far - for that there could be several explanations, and I only could take a guess here (and not even an educated one  so I'd rather not offer one at all).

But first and foremost we don't even know if "quta" indeed were Yemeni dialect, that's only a guess from zooz in that Arabic thread you linked to.


----------



## Outlandish

The Arabs have used the word _qoot _to refer to the Visigothic kingdom which was in the Iberian peninsula in the 7th century before Islamic conquest of the peninsula. Often, the vandal are also mentioned with the _qoot _in narrations about the events back then. The description Gothic appeared in Europe again in the 16th century, but this time as a style and school of architecture. Maybe the word was very widespread, or even controversial, that the Arabs called the tomato imported from the Europeans of Italy and Spain _qoota_.


----------



## DenisBiH

Outlandish said:


> The Arabs have used the word _qoot _to refer to the Visigothic kingdom which was in the Iberian peninsula in the 7th century before Islamic conquest of the peninsula.




Interesting. Could you cite some references for this?


----------



## Outlandish

If you are looking for Arabic references, I have no specific references except Arabic history books and tens of sites which cite the encounters between the Muslims and the _qoot _and _vandaal_ in much detail. This Arabic Wikipedia article, titled 'The Islamic Conquest of Spain' talks about this issue. If you click on the English version in the (other languages) bar, you will be able to know the content of the Arabic article.


----------



## Abu Rashid

origumi,



> But (if I'm not mistaken) in the north and west other words are used,  such as "tomata" in Egypt and "bandora" in the Levant.


Although tamaatum is used in some areas of urban Egypt, I think gutah and ootah (qaf becomes gaf or hamza) are used also, perhaps mostly in rural areas.


----------



## Abu Rashid

sokol,



> Outlandish, could you please tell us what nation usually is referred to  as "Goths" in Arabic?


It probably wasn't a single nation, but just the Goths in general. Like asking which nation did the Europeans used to refer to as Saracens? Or even Turks later on, which generally covered all Easterners, Arab, Kurdish, Persian etc.

Note that the Gothic legacy seems to have been quite strong for the Arabs during their ventures into Europe, since they even named Iberia after them, Vandals->Andalus.


----------



## DenisBiH

Outlandish said:


> If you are looking for Arabic references, I have no specific references except Arabic history books and tens of sites which cite the encounters between the Muslims and the _qoot _and _vandaal_ in much detail.



Hello again Outlandish! 

What I meant is probably what you are referring to above, but to be precise I'm talking about medieval Arabic sources/authors that use the word qoot or modern books that cite these sources. Something in terms of when is this use first attested, who used it etc - if you know of a web-site that contains this information I would be glad to read it. I can't see this information in the English version of the Wiki article, is it in the Arabic one perhaps (my Arabic is only basic)?

I have heard of medieval Arabic authors using firang (Frank) for western Europeans, and siqlab/saqaliba for Slavs/eastern Europeans (and several other ethnonyms as well), but this use of qoot I haven't heard of before and it seems interesting.


----------



## sokol

Abu Rashid said:


> sokol,
> 
> It probably wasn't a single nation, but just the Goths in general. Like asking which nation did the Europeans used to refer to as Saracens? Or even Turks later on, which generally covered all Easterners, Arab, Kurdish, Persian etc.


Well, but that's what I meant, the "Goths in general" did not exist then, at the time when tomatoes came to Europe - and Goths have ruled territories in modern Portugal, Spain, France, Italy and yet other countries.

But obviously, as Outlandish said, Arabic "qoot" probably was just generally used for "Western/Central Mediterranean natives", even in the 16th century and probably even later - that is, Spaniards, Italians, probably also Southern French, who knows.

If this was so then the name of "qoot" for "tomato". I only wanted to make sure about the term "Goth" which, at the time, didn't refer to a particular nation.
And of course Europeans did the same, generalise for Arabic natives of whatever origin. 

So if this was so then the etymology should be clear, and the route the word took (even though not clear yet) clearly would have been somehow across the Mediterranean. But we're still only guessing here of course (or at least, I am).


----------



## berndf

Abu Rashid said:


> Note that the Gothic legacy seems to have been quite strong for the Arabs during their ventures into Europe, since they even named Iberia after them, Vandals->Andalus.


Obviously not, if they named a country ruled by Goths when the Arabs arrived after a totally different people (the Vandals) who didn't even live there at the time. The Vandals were the first Germanic people the Arabs (of Muslims) encountered on their westward expansion from Egypt.



Outlandish said:


> The description Gothic appeared in Europe again in the 16th  century, but this time as a style and school of architecture.


You are aware that this was meant as an insult? In Italy, the term Gothic means _barbarian, vulgar, uncivilized_. It doesn't refer to a Gothic people any more. I have the impression the term is also derogatory in modern Arabic, referring to Europeans in general, with the same connotations as in Renaissance Italian. Am I right?


----------



## Outlandish

I said that I read the word _qoot _to  mean the Visigoth kingdom, but I did not mean original medieval history  books, but rather recent ones. The term _qoot _is overwhelmingly used for the Visigoth in every contemporary history book which embarks  on this topic. 

However, for your sake, I tried to find, at least, one medieval  reference. By looking up a small part made up of 50 pages from _Ibn Hayyan_'s "_Al  Muqtabas min Tarikh Al Andalus_", or "_Al  Muqtabas min Anbaa' Al Andalus_", I found mention to the word  _Qooteya_. He referred in this part  to a famous linguist from Cordoba, _Abu Bakr Ibn Al  Qootia_, who died in 997 AD._ Abu Bakr  Ibn Al Qootia_ _Al Qurtubi_  included information about the Visigothic branch in his family in his  book _Tarikh  Iftitah Al Andalus_.  

The famous biographical encyclopedia _Seyar  A'alaam Al Nubalaa'_, by _Shams ed-Deen  Al Dhahabi,_ born in 1274 AD, states that _Ibn Al Qooteya_ descended from a mixed marriage in  older generations of his family. _Al-Dhahabi _mentioned  a strange piece of information about the origin of the  word Goth; he says about the woman to whom _Abu Bakr Al Qurtubi_ was attributed:



> *والقوطية هي  سارة بنت المنذر بن جطسية * *من بنات ملوك **القوط * *، **والقوط * *  : **أمة كانوا بإقليم **الأندلس * *من ذرية **قوط بن حام بن نوح * *عليه السلام ، هي جدة لجده ، وقد كانت سارت إلى **الشام * *متظلمة   من عمها **أرطياس * *، فتزوجها **بالشام * *عيسى بن مزاحم * *مولى **عمر بن عبد  العزيز * *ثم سافر  معها إلى **الأندلس * *، وهو جد **عبد العزيز  بن إبراهيم بن عيسى * *   .
> *


Translation:
*
*


> *Al-Qootia is Sarah  daughter of Al Mundhir son of 'Jetsia', who  was one of the daughters of a Visigoth King. The Visigoth "Qoot" were a nation which lived in Andalus. They descended from the progeny of Qoot son of Haam son of  Noah, peace be upon him. She is the grandmother of his  grandfather. She had took to the Levant when she wanted to make a  complaint against her paternal uncle Artias and she married **there **Isaa Ibn Muzahim, the  slave of Omar ibn Abdel-Aziz who later traveled with her to Andalus. He  is the grandfather of Abdel-Aziz bin Ibrahim bin Isaa (Abu Bakr's  grandfather).
> 
> *


*
*


----------



## berndf

Thank you. ... And a quick check with Wikipedia reveals that it my no means certain that _Al-Andalus_ has anything to do with the _Vandals_.


----------



## Outlandish

Yes, I read the meaning this word bore in Medieval Europe before. 



> I have the impression the term is also derogatory in modern Arabic,  referring to Europeans in general, with the same connotations as in  Renaissance Italian. Am I right?



I see your point, but this is not the case. The word bears no derogatory connotations at all. For the Arab reader it only means a name for a Kingdom or race, no more no less. Maybe when the Arabs imported tomato or qoota from the South European nations (namely Spain) they bore in mind the old name of the land and its inhabitants. Again, if they had named it qoota under the influence of the new term popular in Europe in the C. 16th, maybe there is a missing chain, or maybe, merely the popularity, controversy or widespread of the term caused them to borrow it. Yet, they could have never thought of any derogatory implications in the word. For Arabs, the Qoot has been used centuries before the new meaning arrives, and it has always signified the name of a nation.


----------



## DenisBiH

Fantastic information Outlandish, thank you very much! 

"Jetsia" is very interesting, because several writers from late antiquity / early medieval ages use Getae (originally a Thracian/Dacian tribe) to describe among others the Goths.


----------



## Outlandish

You are most welcome, DenisBiH.



> "Jetsia" is very interesting, because several early medieval writers use Getae (originally a Thracian/Dacian tribe) to  describe among others the Goths.



It really is. Anyone who has more information about the origin of Jetsia , whether it is related to Getae and can verify its translation, would be of help by adding his notes. Jetsia is a retranslation from Al Dhahabi's arabization of an uncertain original.


----------



## DenisBiH

Outlandish said:


> It really is. Anyone who has more information about the origin of Jetsia , whether it is related to Getae and can verify its translation, would be of help by adding his notes. Jetsia is a retranslation from Al Dhahabi's arabization of an uncertain original.




Aside from Jetsia (*جطسية*) I also find the name Artias (*أرطياس*) interesting - I wonder if it can be explained as Arabic? There are several attested Germanic names on arda- : Ardabur, Ardaric, and also Slavic Ardagast (possibly from Gothic *ardagasts < *arda-gastiz) 

But maybe this would fit better in another thread.


----------



## Frank06

Hi,

If I may believe the Wikipedia article, the tomato was fairly well known in Europe by the mid 16th century, which means that we don't really need the (*historical*) Goths, Guti, Gauts, Getae, Gepids and Guppies to explain the Arabic word, if there is a connection at all. 

After the fall of the Gothic Kingdoms in Italy, Southern France and Spain, the "Goths" remained quite omnipresent in Europe, or at least the _name _"Goths". The name was used by kings of many European countries. 
A few examples: Austria and Sweden quarreled at the Council of Basel (1431-1449) when both claimed to be the true descendants of the Goths. Polish king Jan Sobiesky's campaign to rescue Vienna from the Turks was called "The Gothic Mars". For more examples that indicate that the name 'Goth' was widely known and used throughout Europe see the introduction of Wolram's _History of the Goths_. 
Also the Spanish kings during and long after the so-called Reconquista  saw themselves as the inherritors of the Goths (see for example Van der Heijden, _De Zwarte Renaissance_ - _The Dark Renaissance_).

Outlandish' explanation seems to establish that the word qoot was used for anything Gothic. It seems plausible that the Arabic word was used in a similar sense.

But I still have a few questions.
If I understood well, Arabic quta, tomato (and variants) seems to be limited to Southern Yemen and a few villages in Egypt. Was its usage more widespread in the past?

I also have the impression that the original question isn't fully answered yet:


> then the word changed from _quteya _(means: of a Gothic nationality/from the land of the Gothic) to _quta_.


I don't know any Arabic, so this is a very open (and maybe silly) question, but is this, how to call it, "change" a common phenomenon? 

Frank


----------



## DenisBiH

Another plant found mainly in Asia and tropical Africa, Solanum aethiopicum also known as Mock* Tomato* and Ethiopian Eggplant/Nightshade, seems also to be known in Arabic under a similar name, that seems to extend to Sudan.

May not mean much in terms of proving or disproving anything, but one may look into the possibility that _quta_ is related to a name in some African language of (the fruit of) a native plant that was borrowed into Arabic and later used to denote tomato in some dialects.


----------



## cherine

berndf said:


> You are aware that this was meant as an insult? In Italy, the term Gothic means _barbarian, vulgar, uncivilized_. It doesn't refer to a Gothic people any more. I have the impression the term is also derogatory in modern Arabic, referring to Europeans in general, with the same connotations as in Renaissance Italian. Am I right?


Hi Bernd,

The term "quuT" قوط is not derogatory at all in any period of the Arabic language. Not that I know of anyway. It refers to the Goths as people, and to the architectural style الطراز القوطي .
Also, the term "Visigoths" is translated as القوط الغربيين (Western Goths), and "Ostrogoths" are القوط الشرقيين (Eastern Goths). So, as you can see, the term "Qút" قوط (Goths) was kept and used for a long period, and not only for the Goths.


Frank06 said:


> If I may believe the Wikipedia article, the tomato was fairly well known in Europe by the mid 16th century, which means that we don't really need the (*historical*) Goths, Guti, Gauts, Getae, Gepids and Guppies to explain the Arabic word, if there is a connection at all.


I really don't know where the Arabic "Qúta" came from. But if ones needs to relate it to the people, then we should keep in mind the fact that "qút" was still the word for the Visigoths and Ostrogoths (not only the Goths). If that helps in making any connections at all.


> If I understood well, Arabic quta, tomato (and variants) seems to be limited to Southern Yemen and a few villages in Egypt. Was its usage more widespread in the past?


I'm afraid I don't know about the word used in the past for tomato. But I only want to say that "úta" (Egyptian pronunciation for qúta) is not only in few villages, but it's used in the capital itself (Cairo).


> I don't know any Arabic, so this is a very open (and maybe silly) question, but is this, how to call it, "change" a common phenomenon?


I don't think it's a silly question, Frank.
I can't think of any similar change (from "iyya" to "a").


----------



## Frank06

*Hi,*



DenisBiH said:


> Aside from Jetsia (*جطسية*) I also find the name Artias (*أرطياس*) interesting - I wonder if it can be explained as Arabic?
> But maybe this would fit better in another thread.


*Indeed, let's reserve this for a new thread.*

*Frank,*
*Moderator EHL*


----------



## Outlandish

Frank06 said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> But I still have a few questions.
> If I understood well, Arabic quta, tomato (and variants) seems to be limited to Southern Yemen and a few villages in Egypt. Was its usage more widespread in the past?
> 
> I also have the impression that the original question isn't fully answered yet:
> 
> I don't know any Arabic, so this is a very open (and maybe silly) question, but is this, how to call it, "change" a common phenomenon?
> 
> Frank




As to the first question, you would hear the word _qoota _in some old Egyptian movies from the fifties; I don't know of other sources which may go back to an older date.

As to your second, the change from _qooteya _to _qoota _is out of my sheer deduction. Maybe it didn't start as _qooteya _but rather as _qoota _from the first day it was called so. 


Although I'm not familiar with the plausible theories of the stages through which a word may go before it takes a final form, I do not know why not change from this to that is not possible. There are many fusHa (MSA) words which changed dramatically to something brand new. I don't remember many now but only -since we are talking about names of places- the name of the Roman capital which have always been Roma in Italian -correct me if I'm wrong- had undergone a mild change and was pronounced _Romeyyah _by early Arabs, then turned to its original, Roma. Also the Greek city Byzantium was altered by the Arabs to both _Byzanteyya _and _Byzanta _.  


Some Copts say the word _qoota _is a Coptic word (originally from the Coptic language) -which is a mixture of Greek and Hieroglyphic and other effects- but it is far fetched since _tomato _was not known to Arabs except recently, perhaps the 16th or early 17th century, in a period when the Coptic language was a dead unused language plausible only to the clergy. Moreover, many Copts are used to laying arbitrary claims to the origins of many, purely, Arabic expressions and their claims turn out to be false. I posed this here because maybe there is a margin of truth that it is true after all.


----------



## Samama

Solanum aethiopicum was known in Turkey from the late 17th century by the name "kavata" (in old script spelt identically to Arabic _quta_). This was long before the tomato was known here, so I also think the name of the African fruit kavata/quta was later transferred to the tomato because of their very similar appearance.
Solanum aethiopicum is also called _quta _in Sudan.


----------

