# a potter's field



## mariannor

¿Qué es un "potter's field"? La frase es: But they left land unconsecrated beside the sacred ground, potter's fields to bury the criminals and the suicides and those who were not of the faith.

Gracias.


----------



## littlewitch

Aquí te dejo un enlace a la Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter's_field


----------



## mariannor

Pero ¿hay algún término en español para esto?


----------



## k-in-sc

mariannor said:


> Land unconsecrated beside the sacred ground ...  to bury the criminals and the suicides and those who were not of the faith.


That's the definition of a "potter's field."


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

Extramuros. En España los judíos, los suicidas, los criminales eran enterrados extramuros.


----------



## mariannor

Muchas gracias a todos.


----------



## aztlaniano

En sentido más moderno es un cementerio municipal, público, gratis, para los indigentes o los cadáveres sin identificar.


----------



## Anna_Esteban

En Cataluña, al menos, los cementerios se dividían en distintas partes:

- el camposanto, lugar de enterramiento de los fieles

- fosa común, para indigentes o fieles sin dinero para pagar un enterramiento o enterramientos masivos (guerras, invasiones, epidemias)

- ante-cementerio, para infieles, ateos o suicidas, que no merecen enterramiento en lugar santo pero por higiene deben ser incluídos dentro de los muros del cementerio pero en un lugar separado de los fieles. 

Si la defición de potter's field es  a place for the burial of unknown or indigent people, me inclinaría a traducirlo como "fosa común".

El término "extramuros" es demasiado genérico por referirse a cualquier lugar fuera de los límites de cualquier muro y se utiliza más comúnmente para ubicar el espacio no protegido por las murallas o muros de una ciudad fortificada, normalmente donde vivía la plebe.


----------



## Anna_Esteban

Aunque viendo el contexto : "But they left land unconsecrated beside the sacred ground, potter's fields to bury the criminals and the suicides and those who were not of the faith." parece ser el llamado "ante-cementerio". 
Quizá potter's field sea palabra única para los dos emplazamientos.


----------



## k-in-sc

"Fosa común," a common grave? Several people per grave? Mass burials? No, a "potter's field" definitely is not that.


----------



## Anna_Esteban

I think there isn't an specific word in English for each term in Spanish.
 The "fosa común" is a kind of cave where the corpses are left and covered with quicklime in massive form and the "ante-cementerio" is a land inside de cemetery but separated from the sacred land where the corpses are buried individually with their graves (as the families had money to pay the funeral but the individuals were'nt good for being together with the believers for being of others religions, kill themselves or whatever).


----------



## Valeria Mesalina

Anna_Esteban said:


> I think there isn't an specific word in English for each term in Spanish.


 
Are you sure?


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

Potter's Field is DEFINITELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY translated as "fosa común" in Spanish. So much so that even in French it's translated as "fosse commune"........almost identical to the Spanish. A Potters' Field is essentially a common grave where indigent or unknown people are buried.


----------



## Lis48

I always thought that  "fosa común" is translated as "mass grave" or "communal grave."
 A potter's field is not a communal/mass grave. It contained individually marked graves of paupers/foreigners and rarely were paupers buried together except in plagues.
The essence is that it was the burial place of people who had to rely on the state to pay the costs.
So more a public cemetery on non-consecrated land.
Today the term is used metaphorically to mean a place of abandonment and dishonour so not to be taken literally.
We never spell it with a capital P or pluralise it as "potters'" as it is not someone's name but refers to land unsuitable for farming so only used for the local village potter to dig up for mud.


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

Like many words in Spanish, "fosa común" can be translated into more than one word or phrase into English. It all depends on the context. Just like "escalera" can be translated into about 5 different words depending on the context...."stairwell"  "staircase"  "stairway"  "stairs"  "ladder"  Just like "descanso" can mean "rest" or "landing" depending on the context. Just like "revancha" can mean "rematch"   "revenge"  "payback"  again, depending on the context. I live 4 miles from a potter's field, and it is ABSOLUTELY used for indigents and unknowns. I can't speak for England, and I can't speak for 200 or 300 years ago, but I can certainly speak as to how it is currently used in America. And in America, it has absolutely nothing to do with abandonment or dishonor, it has to do with people who have no one to pay for their funeral costs or couldn't be identified. The reason I capitalized it is because I began the sentence with it, thus grammatically compelled to do so. And I did not pluralize it; potter's is possessive, not plural. It would be the same as if I wrote Michael's basketball; Michael would be singular not plural.


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

And for anyone who may be interested in knowing; the term potter's field originated in the Gospel of Mathew. The priests took Judas Iscariot's thirty pieces of silver for betraying Jesus and used it to buy land on which to bury the poor and foreigners. The land they bought had been owned by a pot-maker, so it was known hence-forth as "potter's field"

Saludos.


----------



## Lis48

Blue-Eyed Cuban said:


> ... A Potters' Field is essentially a common grave where indigent or unknown people are buried.




Here you capitalised and pluralised the word "potter's" which I commented on. 
The context as you say is essential and we do not know if the source is American / British or even if modern / historical, so  sadly an "unequivocal" answer is unlikely to be achieved here.


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

Lis48 said:


> Here you capitalised and pluralised the word "potter's" which I commented on.
> The context as you say is essential and we do not know if the source is American / British or even if modern / historical, so  sadly an "unequivocal" answer is unlikely to be achieved here.



I did not pluralise it, that was a typo on my part, and even though it shouldn't be capitalized, I have seen it capitalized on many occasions, especially in American English. And I made it very clear that I was referring to a modern American context, so the translation is UNEQUIVOCALLY "fosa común", if it is used in the context which I've already thoroughly explained. And for the record, here in America, I have seen judges, federally certified interpreters, and college professors, UNEQUIVOCALLY interpret and translate "potter's field" into "fosa común" in Spanish. Have a nice day.


----------



## k-in-sc

I don't doubt that you've seen it translated like that, but "fosa común" has overtones of "mass grave/common grave" that "potter's field" doesn't.


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

I disagree; especially in light of the fact that I've already thoroughly detailed that it all depends on context. If you are in court or a deposition in the United States, and the interrogating attorney asks the witness "was your uncle buried in a potter's field" there's simply no better and more accurate translation for it than "fosa común"; there simply isn't. I also disagree with your assertion that potter's field doesn't have the same overtones that common grave does. A potter's field is where the unknown and indigent are buried; (at least in America) how could THAT possibly not have overtones of a common grave.


----------



## Lis48

In a legal context in the US, you might well be correct. No-one is challenging your knowledge there.
In a literary context, for example a British poem where it would mean "a place of abandonment/unloved/uncared for,"   to translate "potter's field"  as a "fosa común" would not convey the poet's intentions at all. 

The original post gave no context, so we have no idea  how the phrase was being used. It is too old to request clarification.
So there are many different interpretations depending on context.

 That is why this forum offers so much more than an ordinary dictionary and why we work so hard on it.
​


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

I agree with you. And I've been stressing context and setting from the get-go. Have a great day.


----------



## k-in-sc

"Potter's field" is now somewhat literary/old-fashioned. You would be much more likely to hear in court "Was your uncle buried as an indigent?"
"Common grave" implies "mass grave."


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

Not really considering the quote that I used was from a court case interpreted by a federally certified interpreter two weeks ago in New York City. Not to mention the fact I myself interpreted it as such at a Proffer session last Friday with Spanish speaking federal agents, Spanish speaking attorneys and their prisoner.


----------



## k-in-sc

What a surprising amount of talk about potter's fields. Who knew the feds were so given to discussions of burial arrangements ... Again, the implication in English of "common grave" is one where all the bodies are buried together -- no reflection on "fosa común."


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

Not surprising at all, especially when vast amounts of drug money are buried IN a potter's field; which has absolutely nothing to do with burial arrangements. Again, "fosa común" in this context is a common grave where indigents and unknowns are buried which is totally and unequivocally translated as "potter's field" in English.


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

I'm sure your many years as a Federal Agent in the city of New York qualifies you to know what Feds would and wouldn't talk about...


----------



## k-in-sc

Sure, there are still places called "potter's fields," but the term is almost on a par with "sanatorium" or "asylum," other antiquated names for public facilities. Or maybe your potter's field was in another country, resulting in a back-translation.


----------



## eno2

*potter's field'*



a piece of ground reserved as a burial place for strangers and the friendless poor_*. Matt. 27:7.*__Random House Unabridged Dictionary,_ Copyright © 1997, by Random House, Inc., on Infoplease.


​


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

No, my potter's field was in this country and in 2014. And I have never seen potter's field used synonymously with "sanatorium" or "asylum"; I think you're getting way off course. Again, in this country, a potter's field is a common burial place for indigents and unknowns and is translated as "fosa común" in Spanish.


----------



## k-in-sc

I didn't say they were synonyms, I said they had a similar dated ring to them. Sorry if you didn't get that.
A potter's field is not a "common burial place" in the sense of a mass grave, although it is a common, if somewhat dated-sounding, term for a cemetery or area of a cemetery where indigents are buried (in separate graves).


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

I did get it and you might as well have because I don't see any correlation. A potter's field or common grave is a place where unknown or indigent people are buried; and there's nothing dated-sounding about it. That's simply what it is. And now you're unnecessarily twisting this thing into a pretzel. I never, ever said everybody was buried in the same grave; of course they're in separate graves; just like in a regular cemetery. I don't recall ever writing that everybody is thrown into the same giant hole. If that's what your reading comprehension level led you to infer, well then that's your problem not mine. And the way to interpret/translate potter's field in this context is "fosa común."


----------



## k-in-sc

My point is that "fosa común" also means "common grave," which in English means or at least implies "mass grave" (post 19). English differentiates, Spanish doesn't.


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

I never said "fosa común" doesn't mean "common grave" under the right context. I've been stressing and emphasizing context all long. I simply said that in a modern American context "potter's field" is translated as "fosa común" in Spanish. It all depends on context and setting. We're beating a dead horse here.


----------



## 221BBaker

k-in-sc said:


> I don't doubt that you've seen it translated like that, but "fosa común" has overtones of "mass grave/common grave" that "potter's field" doesn't.


Only in the right context; both of you are right. As it happens in English, idioms are important in Spanish: words or groups of words whose literal meaning is not what they really mean. I think it is called ‘común’ because it is of public property, owned by the ‘ayuntamiento’ of that particular town, not because people would be buried together. However, in another context, it might mean either: a mass grave or a potter's field (a word I did not know, so thanks)

Now, I just checked the RAE's dictionary. *Fosa común:* *1.* f.  Lugar donde se entierran los restos humanos exhumados de sepulturas  temporales o los muertos que, por cualquier razón, no pueden enterrarse  en sepultura propia.

Thanks to both of you guys. A very interesting conversation.


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

221BBaker said:


> Only in the right context; both of you are right. As it happens in English, idioms are important in Spanish: words or groups of words whose literal meaning is not what they really mean. I think it is called ‘común’ because it is of public property, owned by the ‘ayuntamiento’ of that particular town, not because people would be buried together. However, in another context, it might mean either: a mass grave or a potter's field (a word I did not know, so thanks)
> 
> Now, I just checked the RAE's dictionary. *Fosa común:* *1.* f.  Lugar donde se entierran los restos humanos exhumados de sepulturas  temporales o los muertos que, por cualquier razón, no pueden enterrarse  en sepultura propia.
> 
> Thanks to both of you guys. A very interesting conversation.




Glad to have been of some help.     Saludos


----------



## divina

In a literal and historic context, it's called "campo del alfarero" and "campo de sangre".

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceldama


----------



## Blue-Eyed Cuban

divina said:


> In a literal and historic context, it's called "campo del alfarero" and "campo de sangre".
> 
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aceldama



Thank you.


----------

