# -ci-, -zi-



## Jana337

Cześć,

I can finally join those who have already started.

The book (p. 4) says: _Before the letter i, the letter c (without any mark above it) is pronounced like ć.
_
And the same for z. 

Since I know that the Polish ortography will not be my strength, I would like to identify as many regularities as I can. 

If "ci" is like "ć", does it mean that the combination "ći" does not exist?

The book only has examples with "ci" and "zi" at the beginning of words. Pure chance?
EDIT: I have just found ściana but don't know whether "ści" is not considered a single group.

Dziękuję (no, "dzi" does not count as a counterexample ).

Jana


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## Anatoli

Jana337 said:


> If "ci" is like "ć", does it mean that the combination "ći" does not exist?
> 
> The book only has examples with "ci" and "zi" at the beginning of words. Pure chance?


Wait for natives but yes, as far as I know. Yes, it's pure chance. E.g. ży*ci*e  - life.




Jana337 said:


> EDIT: I have just found ściana but don't know whether "ści" is not considered a single group.
> 
> Jana


It's not a single group, you can break it up - ś-ciana. cia is pronounced ćia.

Letter "i" serves as palatalisation symbol (at least in all native Polish words) between consonants and vowels in any position and is not pronounced as a vowel.


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## janek

Hi Jana, 

The book is right, if somewhat laconic. 

_C_ before _i_ is softened "naturally", i.e. _i_ influences the consonant in preposition, same goes for n, s, z. We usually say that ć is short c', and ci is a long c'. 

If we don't want the consonant to be softened, we usually use _j:_
_*zjawa* - [zyAva]_
_*ziewa -* [z'Eva]_

ć, ś, ń, ź appear ONLY before a consonant or at the end of the word. *This is a hard and fast rule*. Therefore combination ći, śi, ńi and źi is impossible. 

The choice of ć or ci, ś or si at the end of the word changes the meaning, as these groups/sounds are individual and independent.  Example:
proś - ask! (imprative) [prOs']
prosi - he/she asks [prOs'ee]

skuć - _v_ to chisel down (like a plaster/stcco off the wall), to handcuff (inf.) [skUc']
skuci - _adj_ handcuffed (plural of _skuty_) [skUc'ee]


*Ściana* - ś and ci are not a single group. It's like wielkość - ś and ć are do not interfere. 

It is a pure coincidence. You get plenty of words like *macierz* (matrix), *kosić* - (to reap), trzeci - (third)

I hope that helps.


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## venenum

So, if I got this right, ci is read [ći] only if there's no other consonant behind the group?


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## Jana337

venenum said:


> So, if I got this right, ci is read [ći] only if there's no other consonant behind the group?


What does it follow from? 

I don't think so. "Ci" seems to be pronunced [ći] everywhere.

Jana

P.S. Dziękuję bardzo, Janek!


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## venenum

Well, in other cases, it's read as ć (without i, which kind of blends with the ć sound)
Try listening to the first text, and pay attention to the sentence:
*"Idę na zajęcia",* which sounds something like: [ide na zajenća] (_remark: I want my IPA fonts!!!!!)_​


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## Jana337

venenum said:


> Well, in other cases, it's read as ć (without i, which kind of blends with the ć sound)
> Try listening to the first text, and pay attention to the sentence:
> *"Idę na zajęcia",* which sounds something like: [ide na zajenća] (_remark: I want my IPA fonts!!!!!)_​


Hm, you are right... It is like in Italian, then: ci - či, cia - ča*.

Natives? 

Jana

* čia if the "i" is stressed.


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