# Nordic



## MarX

Hello!

I would like to know what you understand by "Nordic", or what "Nordic" means to you.

Does it includes Finland and/or the Finnish language?

Thank you!


MarK

Die Frage auf Deutsch:

Was versteht ihr unter "Nordic"?

Gehört Finnland und/oder die finnische Sprache dazu?

Danke!

MfG,


Mark


----------



## jonquiliser

MarX said:


> Hello!
> 
> I would like to know what you understand by "Nordic", or what "Nordic" means to you.
> 
> Does it includes Finland and/or the Finnish language?



Let's see.

Geographically, yes. 
In many political senses, yes.

Linguistically, yes and no. I could speak about Nordic languages, meaning to include Finnish. Or I could speak about the Nordic languages as Norse languages, excluding Finnish. The latter being more usual.

Does that answer your question?


----------



## Outsider

I accept any of the definitions in the dictionary:



> nordic
> 
> A	noun
> 1 	 		the northern family of Germanic languages that are spoken in Scandinavia and Iceland
> 
> B	adjective
> 
> 1
> resembling peoples of Scandinavia
> 
> 2
> relating to Germany and Scandinavia;
> 
> 3
> of or relating to or constituting the Scandinavian group of languages;


Definitions B1 and B2 apply to Finns and Finnish, but definition A1 does not.


----------



## argentina84

I didn't know that Nordic languages are Germanic languages! And I would have never guessed. I find them very different.

And, perhaps because of ignorance, when talking about the Nordic languages and cultures, we always include Finland here.

Regards!


----------



## Outsider

argentina84 said:
			
		

> I didn't know that Nordic languages are Germanic languages! And I would have never guessed.


"Nordic language" can be a synonym of "North Germanic language".


----------



## argentina84

Thank you for the link Outsider! Now I understand. Germanic languages are divided into North, West (The ones I was aware of) and East Germanic languages. 

And Finnish is not included there, but: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language

I will never forget what I learn here. This forum is just great!


----------



## Sepia

argentina84 said:


> Thank you for the link Outsider! Now I understand. Germanic languages are divided into North, West (The ones I was aware of) and East Germanic languages.
> 
> And Finnish is not included there, but:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language
> 
> I will never forget what I learn here. This forum is just great!




Politically "Nordic" refers to the Nordic Countries, the ones that are members of the Nordic Council: Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Sweden.


----------



## avok

The term Nordic, here, usually refers to tall, blond, cold people with liberal attitudes of the North  sometimes, even Russia is considered as Nordic, which makes sense, since it IS up in the north. I also see no reason why we should not accept Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia as Nordic.


----------



## Sepia

avok said:


> The term Nordic, here, usually refers to tall, blond, cold people with liberal attitudes of the North  sometimes, even Russia is considered as Nordic, which makes sense, since it IS up in the north. I also see no reason why we should not accept Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia as Nordic.



Obviously you don't consider that many of the Danes Nordic, then. Funny ...


----------



## MarX

avok said:


> The term Nordic, here, usually refers to tall, blond, cold people with liberal attitudes of the North  sometimes, even Russia is considered as Nordic, which makes sense, since it IS up in the north. I also see no reason why we should not accept Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia as Nordic.


If those physical traits are determining for referring Nordicness, then you can also include Germans, Poles, Belarusians, and Dutch as well.

I'm not sure if Russians, Belarusians, Poles, and Lithuanians are that liberal. I'd like to add that IMO, being not liberal is not necessarily something bad. Some people are just not liberal because they hold on to conservative values. But this is off topic. So I won't continue.


So I guess the meaning of "Nordic" is different in different people's heads, eh?
There are Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Estonian, Faeroese, Dutch, Russian, Icelandic, Latvian, German, Belarusian, Lithuanian, Polish, and people include include some of these in different compositions in their understanding of what *Nordic* is.


----------



## Outsider

MarX said:


> So I guess the meaning of "Nordic" is different in different people's heads, eh?


I wouldn't say that. Some people just don't know that the word has more than one meaning. Somehow, they got it into their heads that there's just one.


----------



## Vanda

Every time I think of Nordic I wrap all of these in my mind: the blondest hair, tall, big legs, the bluest eyes, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Sweden, vikings, cold "very cold", mystic and mistery and places I'd like to live in. Very broad concepts? Yes, I know.


----------



## Fernando

I think definitions given by Outsider in post #3 are a poor try to "racionalize" this concept, which I think is so "exact" and "well defined" as "Southern".

While I think that a dweller in Trondheim is certainly a Nordic and I am unsure about things or people coming from St. Petersburg, Stockholm, Copenhaghen, Edimburgh, Reikyavik, Moscow, Helsinki, Berlin or Munich, which are sometimes called "Nordic".

From my personal point of view (40º North) all of them are "Nordics".


----------



## kratu

Vanda said:


> Every time I think of Nordic I wrap all of these in my mind: the blondest hair, tall, big legs, the bluest eyes


I think that *Nordicists* had/have some similar ideas. Here's a Wikipedia article on Nordicism:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_theory


----------



## Outsider

That's definition B2, above, and a rather popular one, it must be admitted. (MarX seemed to subscribe to it.) On the other hand, it's got little to do with language.



> relating to Germany and Scandinavia;


I actually find the dictionary definitions adequate, if necessarily a bit vague.


----------



## kratu

MarX said:


> If those physical traits are determining for referring Nordicness, then you can also include Germans, Poles, Belarusians, and Dutch as well.
> 
> I'm not sure if Russians, Belarusians, Poles, and Lithuanians are that liberal. I'd like to add that IMO, being not liberal is not necessarily something bad. Some people are just not liberal because they hold on to conservative values. But this is off topic. So I won't continue.
> 
> 
> So I guess the meaning of "Nordic" is different in different people's heads, eh?
> There are Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Estonian, Faeroese, Dutch, Russian, Icelandic, Latvian, German, Belarusian, Lithuanian, Polish, and people include include some of these in different compositions in their understanding of what *Nordic* is.


I wonder if British, or specifically English people are considered Nordic too? Considering that the Angles, Saxons and Jutes originally came from what is now Northern Germany, near Denmark, and later British invaders, the Normans, were also of Scandinavian stock. But apparently modern English people are more like a Germanic/Celtic mixture, although that has to be more "Nordic" than people from some of the Slavic countries mentioned above, I guess.


----------



## Fernando

Outsider said:


> I actually find the dictionary definitions adequate, if necessarily a bit vague.



The vague thing is the concept, not the dictionary. I would propose something as:

"Nordic: Anything from Northern countries in Europe, excluding only countries which have a shore with the Mediterranean sea.

Sometimes the concept is more restrictive, referring to anything from Scandinavia."


----------



## jonquiliser

I think in Scandinavia (Denmark, Norway, Sweden), Finland and Iceland, the Nordic countries (Norden in Swedish) is generally taken to be these countries (including the Faroes), due to explicit political ties as such (that is, as "the Nordic countries"). That is, the Nordic countries are not understood as "northern countries" or "countries in the north, in general". To speak about languages, "Nordic" then sometimes refers to Norse languages, but can also be used to talk about the languages spoken in any area of this political entity. That includes not only Norse languages and Finnish but also other languages such as Sami, Karelian etc. 

Geographically we also tend to use the term to refer to this whole entity.


----------



## Fernando

Of course I am thinking in terms of Spanish culture and thinking in the use of "nordico" in Spanish. So, I could be wrong in the use of the term in English in England .

Below, you will find the Spanish definitions, which are closer (1st and 2nd definition) to the "broad" meaning (people from the North of Europe).

As an example, the Ring saga and Beowulf are usually named "Nordic mithology", while they are mixing German and Scandinavian mithology.



> nórdico, ca.
> 1. adj. Natural de alguno de los pueblos del norte de Europa.
> 2. adj. Perteneciente o relativo a estos pueblos.
> 3. m. Grupo de las lenguas germánicas del norte de Europa, como el noruego, el sueco, el danés y el islandés.


----------



## avok

Sepia said:


> Obviously you don't consider that many of the Danes Nordic, then. Funny ...


 
Why did you say that? Are Danes short and dark? Now _that _would be funny.



MarX said:


> If those physical traits are determining for referring Nordicness, then you can also include Germans, Poles, Belarusians, and Dutch as well.
> 
> There are Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, Danish, Estonian, Faeroese, Dutch, Russian, Icelandic, Latvian, German, Belarusian, Lithuanian, Polish, and people include include some of these in different compositions in their understanding of what *Nordic* is.


 
Blond hair would be "one" of the factors not "the" factor. And I would hardly consider Germany Nordic. Germany, the Netherlands, Poland are typical "continental" countries not Nordic. There is something Nordic about the Frisians though. 



kratu said:


> I wonder if British, or specifically English people are considered Nordic too? Considering that the Angles, Saxons and Jutes originally came from what is now Northern Germany, near Denmark,


 
A good question. I have also wondered about the same thing 
But the English people are not continental Europeans. I guess to be defined as Nordic you have to be both continental and somewhere up in the north "or" to speak a Scandinavian tongue. For instance, Denmark which is continental is in the North, so it is  Nordic (+ they speak a scandinavian tongue : even better ) 


Fernando said:


> I would propose something as:
> 
> "Nordic: Anything from Northern countries in Europe, excluding only countries which have a shore with the Mediterranean sea.


 
That's very broad but makes sense.

Oh...that's what I found on Wikipedia:



> Before the 19th century, the term _Nordic_ may have been used more as a synonym for _Northern_ to mean Northern Europe, including European Russia, the Baltic countries (at that time Estonia, Livonia and Courland) and occasionally the British Isles and other lands on the shores of the Baltic and North Seas.


----------



## MarX

avok said:


> Blond hair would be "one" of the factors not "the" factor. And I would hardly consider Germany Nordic. Germany, the Netherlands, Poland are typical "continental" countries not Nordic. There is something Nordic about the Frisians though.


So what are the other factors in your concept that make something Nordic for you?



avok said:


> I have also wondered about the same thing
> But the English people are not continental Europeans. I guess to be defined as Nordic you have to be both continental and somewhere up in the north "or" to speak a Scandinavian tongue. For instance, Denmark which is continental is in the North, so it is Nordic (+ they speak a scandinavian tongue : even better )


Icelandic and Faeroese are not continental, neither is Scotland, which is btw more Northern than Denmark.



Outsider said:


> That's definition B2, above, and a rather popular one, it must be admitted.


From Fernando's list, St. Petersburg, Edinburgh, and Moscow aren't really relating to Germany nor Scandinavia.


----------



## aleCcowaN

I think Nordic is a rather ambiguous term. The term Norse, both linguistically and geographically, is stricter and excludes Finland but Aland. The Spanish speakers identify Nordic strictly as Scandinavian, in the broadest meaning, including Finland. In a broader way, Nordic are to us all people living close to the seas, North of River Loire, The Alps and Carpathian Mountains, including Irish and Lithuanian. We also can use the term Nordic to oppose people from different regions of the same country (the blond from Normandie and the brown-haired from Provence; the stern Hamburger and the cheerful Viennese; the first ones in each pair, Nordic; the last ones, more Mediterranean). People are who even dare to play with this opposition within Italy and Spain.


----------



## MarX

aleCcowaN said:


> People are who even dare to play with this opposition within Italy and Spain.


You mean there are people who consider Northern Spaniards Nordic?


----------



## avok

MarX said:


> So what are the other factors in your concept that make something Nordic for you?
> 
> I already said that, "I guess to be defined as Nordic you have to be both continental and somewhere up in the north "or" to speak a Scandinavian tongue."
> *continental + northern : Finland
> *Speaking a Scandinavian tongue: Iceland
> 
> Icelandic and Faeroese are not continental, neither is Scotland, which is btw more Northern than Denmark.
> 
> Yes, but Iceland and Faroe islands speak Scandinavian tongues. Scotland is neither continental nor nordic, it is defined as "celtic". I guess people in the British isles do not need any other adjective like "nordic"


----------



## Outsider

MarX said:


> From Fernando's list, St. Petersburg, Edinburgh, and Moscow aren't really relating to Germany nor Scandinavia.


Well, if you think of "nordic" in terms of physical types (the blond-and-blue-eyed stereotype), then many Russians fit it.


----------



## MarX

Outsider said:


> Well, if you think of "nordic" in terms of physical types (the blond-and-blue-eyed stereotype), then many Russians fit it.


I gave that comment because you had written that that was definition B2. According to definition B1, many Edinburghers, Muscovites, and St. Petersburgers would of course fit.


Outsider said:


> That's definition B2, above, and a rather popular one, it must be admitted


 
Although you're right about the definition being vague. *B1: resembling peoples of Scandinavia*.
If one refers to B1 as being blond and blue eyed, then it's not correct. There are simply higher percentages of blonds in Norway than in, say, France. But there is a considerable proportion of dark-haired people there. In fact, proportionally, Estonia, Southern Finland, and St. Petersburg area are significantly blonder than even Sweden.


----------



## Outsider

The are many blond Germans, too.


----------



## aleCcowaN

MarX said:


> You mean there are people who consider Northern Spaniards Nordic?


Yes, there are people not considering but describing as Nordic-like/resembling those who fit the stereotype (fair hair and eyes, taller, dolichocephalic -but most Spaniards are dolichocephalic, even Southerns-). There is a sort of Nordic-Mediterranean axis one could use to describe how people look like, an educated way to do it, not widely used, but you haven't to use quotation marks and refer people as "Nordic".


----------



## Lello4ever

To me "Nordic" means Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark and Finland and their languages.
Maybe also Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania could be considered nordic.


----------



## Sepia

Vanda said:


> Every time I think of Nordic I wrap all of these in my mind: the blondest hair, tall, big legs, the bluest eyes, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Sweden, vikings, cold "very cold", mystic and mistery and places I'd like to live in. Very broad concepts? Yes, I know.




I always wonder where people get such ideas from, what Denmark is concerned. Most Danes are not blond and do not have blue eyes. At least not what you would call blond in an English-language context. 

So according so the criteria some have set here for "Nordic", Danes are not Nordic.

I would call Denmark "Nordic" though - it is a matter of population and culture together and I would even include the Northern parts of Germany that used to belong to Denmark. I think that would be just as OK as including the part of Denmark that is not German any more.


----------



## jonquiliser

Sepia said:


> I always wonder where people get such ideas from, what Denmark is concerned. Most Danes are not blond and do not have blue eyes. At least not what you would call blond in an English-language context.
> 
> So according so the criteria some have set here for "Nordic", Danes are not Nordic.
> 
> I would call Denmark "Nordic" though - it is a matter of population and culture together and I would even include the Northern parts of Germany that used to belong to Denmark. I think that would be just as OK as including the part of Denmark that is not German any more.



And there certainly are a whole lot of people in Finland that don't fit the stereotype - just as everwhere. Stereotypes are just that - stereotypes.


----------



## Vanda

Right, just what people said above: stereotypes. And I am not alone. This is pretty much what comes to mind to most of my acquaintances here.


----------



## HUMBERT0

I remember I’ve read about Nordics, they are from northern Europe, supposedly they have pinkish white skin, blue eyed and blonde hair, and they have long skulls like Mediterranean’s but are much taller. And Baltics are like Nordics but are even lighter in complexion, closer in complexion to albinos.
Though I don't now if racial or ethnic categorization is still consider valid for a group of peoples.


----------



## avok

HUMBERT0 said:


> ... And Baltics are like Nordics but are even lighter in complexion, closer in complexion to albinos.


 
 Baltic peoples might be blonder than Russians however I don't think that they are blonder than the Scandinavians and that they are almost albinos


----------



## Sepia

Anway, this discussion is a bit racist, don't you all think? I mean, you find all mixtures of everything all over in the Baltic and Scandinavian regions - People in the South that obviously somewhere down the line have ancestors among the nomads in the North. Danes and Norwegians that look more Celtic than Germanic, here and there people that look very North European, but have French family names and vice versa. 

How will you really tell which is which? The past 1000-1500 years people have been moving around a lot. Some voluntarily, some not.


----------



## avok

Sepia said:


> Anway, this discussion is a bit racist, don't you all think? I mean, you find all mixtures of everything all over in the Baltic and Scandinavian regions - People in the South that obviously somewhere down the line have ancestors among the nomads in the North. Danes and Norwegians that look more Celtic than Germanic, here and there people that look very North European, but have French family names and vice versa.
> 
> How will you really tell which is which? The past 1000-1500 years people have been moving around a lot. Some voluntarily, some not.


 
Yes but this does not change the fact that the nordic peoples are blonder than the mediterraneans (hot countries around the mediterranean sea -not just spain or italy but turkey and lebanon too-  roman empire) or the other way around mediterraneans are darker in complexion, this is not something racist just a fact. It would be racist to believe and make people believe that the blond curls and baby blue eyes are the trace of the real european.


----------



## Yulia Alex

I live in European Russia. We (european Russians) are certainly not Nordic. We never think of us as this. We are Slavic. Nordic are those who live to the west from us. Not everyone, of course


----------



## avok

Yulia Alex said:


> I live in European Russia. We (european Russians) are certainly not Nordic. We never think of us as this. We are Slavic. Nordic are those who live to the west from us. Not everyone, of course


 
Yes but as we already said the term nordic rings different bells in different minds.  But usually for us, the people who live in hot countries, anywhere around the Scandinavian area -regardless their ethicity- can be called Nordic. Of course russia is slavic there is no doubt about it


----------



## Yulia Alex

avok said:


> Yes but as we already said the term nordic rings different bells in different minds.



I just wanted to let you know what bell rings in a Russian mind. I maybe did it in a rough way, but that goes from my weak and poor English. And also it seemed to me strange that for southern people there's no great difference between northern europeans and slavic people who live in eastern europe almost from south to the north. I wouldn't even include Finnish people in the Nordic group (personal and intuitive opinion), for me as for a Russian person they are not Nordic. I can't proove it, but instinctively I know it.
I wonder if Finnish consider themselves Nordic?


----------



## MarX

Dear Yulia Alex,

some people understand Nordic as physical characteristics. They see "Nordic" as simply having (light) blond hair and blue eyes.
For them, since the people from the areas around the Baltic Sea fit into these characteristics, St. Petersburgers are just as Nordic as people from Uppsala.
This is why Avok said that the term "Nordic" rings different bells in different minds.

No one is negating that the Russians of St. Petersburg are Slavic.

Some simply separate Slavic (linguistic) and Nordic (physical), which is why, for them, St. Petersburgers and/or Danzigers can be both Slavic (linguistically) and Nordic (physically).

Grüsse,


MarK


----------



## avok

Yulia Alex said:


> And also it seemed to me strange that for southern people there's no great difference between northern europeans and slavic people who live in eastern europe almost from south to the north.
> Yes but the northern europeans do the same. While I was in Belgium -which is by no means Nordic- it was surprising for me to find out that Belgians call Turks, Arabs of *any* Arabian country or any other person with dark hair (as if all belgians are blond!!) "marocain" which means "moroccan"!!
> 
> I wouldn't even include Finnish people in the Nordic group (personal and intuitive opinion), for me as for a Russian person they are not Nordic.
> 
> Me neither  there is something "asiatic" about finns, is not there? But I guess they consider themselves Nordic because they have strong ties with Sweden. And swedish is even one of the official languages.
> 
> I can't proove it, but instinctively I know it.
> I wonder if Finnish consider themselves Nordic?


----------



## MarX

avok said:
			
		

> While I was in Belgium -which is by no means Nordic- it was surprising for me to find out that Belgians call Turks, Arabs of *any* Arabian country or any other person with dark hair (as if all belgians are blond!!) "marocain" which means "moroccan"!!


Just as many Germans don't make no distinction between Turks and Arabs.
But this is getting off topic.


----------



## jonquiliser

> I wonder if Finnish consider themselves Nordic?



Yes, in many senses. 

Though many people (not themselves from these purported Nordic countries) who've answered in this thread about their views on the concept seem to have a very racialised (and strange) take on it. I don't mean it in that sense.


----------



## avok

MarX said:


> Just as many Germans don't make no distinction between Turks and Arabs.
> But this is getting off topic.


 
Germans make no distinction between any mediterraneans calling them all "schwartzkopf" (dark head). At least in mediterranean countries where the majority is dark-haired we don't label people with blond heads. I guess we just don't care about the colour of some hair outside the heads, we are much more interested inside the heads.

There are blond Turkic peoples such as Tuvans are thay Nordic too? I don't think soooo 



> Though many people (not themselves from these purported Nordic countries) who've answered in this thread about their views on the concept seem to have a very racialised (and strange) take on it. I don't mean it in that sense.


 
I don't think having blond hair is something racial and strange and rare. Any race including mongoloids can have blond hair. In some regions of Turkey, half of the population is blond/fair yet we dont thin'k they are of a different race.


----------



## MarX

avok said:


> Germans make no distinction between any mediterraneans calling them all "schwartzkopf" (dark head). At least in mediterranean countries where the majority is dark-haired we don't label people with blond heads. I guess we just don't care about the colour of some hair outside the heads, we are much more interested inside the heads.


I've been living in Germany for almost five years, and have never heard the term "Schwarzkopf" used to denote the Mediterraneans.
There are people from all over the world in Germany, and not only the Mediterraneans have black hair (which, saying Mediterraneans have black hair is not very correct, many of them have dark hair but not necessarily black).
Furthermore, even though many Germans don't distinguish Turks and Arabs, it usually wouldn't occur to them to call Spaniards or Italians with the generalized (and not necessarily pejorative) term "Türken" or "Araber".

This is going off topic. If It's going to be continued, then a splitting is advisable.

Salam,


MarK


----------



## xenon

avok said:


> At least in mediterranean countries where the majority is dark-haired we don't label people with blond heads.


In Spain they do. A Northern European (or North American) with blond hair is a "guiri", usually applied to foreign tourists.


----------



## chics

Well, in fact a *guiri* is more an attitude than another thing, we can name ourselves guiris when we're on holiday! And nothing to do with blond hair, they can be brown, of course. Itaians can be _guiris_...


----------



## Sepia

jonquiliser said:


> Yes, in many senses.
> 
> Though many people (not themselves from these purported Nordic countries) who've answered in this thread about their views on the concept seem to have a very racialised (and strange) take on it. I don't mean it in that sense.



Politically Finland is Nordic - as a member of the Nordic Council, which includes cooperations on many levels including common labor market, free movement and open borders among the Nordic Countries since 1952. 

I think it also still includes the Danish dependency, Greenland, by the way although they do not express this too clearly on their official web-site. So you could with some right even call Greenland Nordic.


----------



## xenon

chics said:


> And nothing to do with blond hair, they can be brown, of course. Itaians can be _guiris_...


I think it would not be very common for an Italian to be called a "guiri", unless he looked like a typical Northern European. If he was wearing sandals with white socks then he definitely would be . But well, I don't agree that it has nothing to do with hair colour or skin complexion, but maybe that discussion is for a different thread.


----------



## Outsider

xenon said:


> But well, I don't agree that it has nothing to do with hair colour or skin complexion, but maybe that discussion is for a different thread.


It has to do with skin tone, hair colour and eye colour only in so far as these traits are indicators of one's _culture._ But _guiri_ (a term which has been discussed many times in these forums before) is primarily a cultural, not biological descriptor. It seems that northern Europeans often misunderstand this. _Schwarzkopf_ on the other hand, from what Avok says, seems to be purely based on biology.


----------



## Tjahzi

As has been stated above, this definition is rather unclear. However, I will try to give you another point of view. The word English word "nordic" translates to "nordisk" in Swedish/Danish/Norwegian. This word, 'nordisk', stems from, and is used as the adjective descibing "Norden", which is generally translated as "the Nordic countries" in English. Hence, Finland is considered a Nordic country, and what is to be considered "Finnish" is then also "Nordic". 

However, there is a linguistic related issue here since we all know that Finnish is not at all related to the rest of the "Nordic languages" (on a side note, in English, the term "Nordic languages" is usually replaced by "North Germanic languages", while in Swedish/Danish/Norwegian the only reference is "Nordiska/e språk/sprog".) Hence, Finnish is clearly not a "Nordic language", however, a Finnish speaking Finn can be/is still considered a "Nordic person". Appearance or style is not a factor here. A bit confusing, but then again, the word stems from "Norden" - "the Nordic countries".

And that's from a Scandinavian (Swedish) point of view.


----------



## chics

Outsider said:


> But _guiri_ (...) is primarily a cultural, not biological descriptor.





> If he was wearing sandals with white socks then he definitely would be  (a _guiri_).


That's it! 

*Nordic* to me is more or less Scandinavia.
When I lived in Spain, the "North o Europe" began in France, and contained all the non mediterranean countries, except Portugal. But now, well, Germany, for example, before considered a northern country, is next to me, even souther! *:-S* So I've changed my advice,  and I'd say to me, now, "north" is more or less Scandinavian countries, Denmark, the Islands in the Atlantic and... that's all.


----------



## jonquiliser

chics said:


> That's it!
> 
> *Nordic* to me is more or less Scandinavia.



On a related note, "Scandinavia/n" is often used interchangeably with "Nordic", meaning Fin/Swe/N/Dk/Isl, though in a strict geographic sense, Scandinavia refers to the countries centred around the Scandinavian peninsula.



> *Sepia*
> Politically Finland is Nordic - as a member of the Nordic Council, which includes cooperations on many levels including common labor market, free movement and open borders among the Nordic Countries since 1952.



This is what I was referring to in a previous post in this thread when I said Finland politically counts among the Nordic countries. Pretty much along the same line as Tjahzi expresses as well .


----------



## chics

jonquiliser said:


> On a related note, "Scandinavia/n" is often used interchangeably with "Nordic", meaning Fin/Swe/N/Dk/Isl, though in a strict geographic sense, Scandinavia refers to the countries centred around the Scandinavian peninsula.


I know, I meant this.


----------



## jonquiliser

chics said:


> I know, I meant this.



I thought you might have meant just that, but perhaps not all will understand it the same way, so I thought a note might be useful


----------



## xenon

Outsider said:


> It has to do with skin tone, hair colour and eye colour only in so far as these traits are indicators of one's _culture._ But _guiri_ (a term which has been discussed many times in these forums before) is primarily a cultural, not biological descriptor. It seems that northern Europeans often misunderstand this. _Schwarzkopf_ on the other hand, from what Avok says, seems to be purely based on biology.


Or maybe what you've said about _guiri_ also applies to _schwarzkopf _and Avok has misunderstood the term? (as I don't speak German, I don't know).


----------



## avok

xenon said:


> Or maybe what you've said about _guiri_ also applies to _schwarzkopf _and Avok has misunderstood the term? (as I don't speak German, I don't know).


 
Hi schwarzkopf means "black head" I do not think it applies to "cultural values".



Tjahzi said:


> And that's from a Scandinavian (Swedish) point of view.


 
Hi thanks for your contribution. I do not know why scandinavians are that shy 



Outsider said:


> It has to do with skin tone, hair colour and eye colour only in so far as these traits are indicators of one's _culture._ But _guiri_ (a term which has been discussed many times in these forums before) is primarily a cultural, not biological descriptor. It seems that northern Europeans often misunderstand this. _Schwarzkopf_ on the other hand, from what Avok says, seems to be purely based on biology.


 
I totally agree with you.



MarX said:


> I've been living in Germany for almost five years, and have never heard the term "Schwarzkopf" used to denote the Mediterraneans.
> 
> That would be politically incorrect, would not it? Since spain and Italy are union states, it would not be fair to adjective them
> 
> There are people from all over the world in Germany, and not only the Mediterraneans have black hair (which, saying Mediterraneans have black hair is not very correct, many of them have dark hair but not necessarily black).
> Of course, but as long as it is dark, does it matter if it is jet black or dark? I don't think germans make that kind of subtle distinction -dark vs black- when they use the word schwarzkopf.
> 
> Furthermore, even though many Germans don't distinguish Turks and Arabs, it usually wouldn't occur to them to call Spaniards or Italians with the generalized (and not necessarily pejorative) term "Türken" or "Araber".
> Of course, because Italians and Spaniards are not muslim and spanish and italian women do not cover their heads. Germans associate turks with arabs not because both have dark hair but because they share some similar cultural values. physically turks are closer to spaniards or italians not arabs (even arabs vary from one to another)
> 
> This is going off topic. If It's going to be continued, then a splitting is advisable.
> Yes, you are right
> 
> Salam,
> 
> 
> MarK


----------



## mhusoy

MarX said:


> Hello!


 
Hi MarX. 



> I would like to know what you understand by "Nordic", or what "Nordic" means to you.
> 
> Does it includes Finland and/or the Finnish language?


 
By "Nordic" I first think of Scandinavia, that is: Norway, Sweden, Denmark. Iceland is also a Scandinavian country thanks to it's language and culture that is strongly tied to Norwegian and Danish. Historically, Finland was also a part of Scandinavia as it was politically dominated by Sweden (from ca 1100 to the Russian take over by the end of the Napoleonic wars). Nordic is here understood as a cultural/linguistic term.

Nordic may also point to the notion of "Norden", "the North", which is a term used by Scandinavians on Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland. Nordic is as such a geographical term.

Another option might be to look on race/ethnicity. The Nordic race is a Germanic race, commonly known as fair haired, blue eyed, tall. Nordic would in this sence also apply to Finland more or less, as Finns were increasingly mixed with Swedes during the time of their political union.


For me, Finland is included in the term "Nordic" when it comes to geography and appearance (and partly also culture), while I don't see the Finnish language as being Nordic, (it is really a Finno-Ugric language, of Siberian-Uralic descent). The rest of the Nordic languages are Northern Germanic (while English, Dutch and German etc. are Western Germanic).




> Thank you!
> 
> 
> MarK


 

You're welcome.


mhusoy


----------



## MarX

Hej mhusoy och välkommen i forumet!

Tack för ditt svar. Uppenbarligen har ordet "Nordic" naagra betydelser. Tack för förklaringen!

Ha det!


MarK


----------



## mhusoy

MarX said:


> Hej mhusoy och välkommen i forumet!
> 
> Tack för ditt svar. Uppenbarligen har ordet "Nordic" naagra betydelser. Tack för förklaringen!
> 
> Ha det!
> 
> 
> MarK


 
Hi, 

are you Swedish? Or just a very good Swedish speaker?

You're really Indonesian from Indonesia right?

Very impressive...


Concerning "Nordic", yes it may have some different aspects to it, at least in my opinion. Of course, I'm primarily talking about the term "nordisk", that is the Scandinavian (Norwegian) translation of the English term, but that is of course what you asked for, specifically pointing to whether or not Finland/Finnish was a part of the basic Nordic, Scandinavian, way of thinking.


mhusoy


----------



## MarX

avok said:


> I've been living in Germany for almost five years, and have never heard the term "Schwarzkopf" used to denote the Mediterraneans.
> 
> That would be politically incorrect, would not it? Since spain and Italy are union states, it would not be fair to adjective them
> 
> There are people from all over the world in Germany, and not only the Mediterraneans have black hair (which, saying Mediterraneans have black hair is not very correct, many of them have dark hair but not necessarily black).
> Of course, but as long as it is dark, does it matter if it is jet black or dark? I don't think germans make that kind of subtle distinction -dark vs black- when they use the word schwarzkopf.


I'd just like to inform you that I have asked many people here in Germany, and posed the question even in the German forum, and *Schwarzkopf* as such is never used.
If you got this (false) information from a German, then s/he probably had been joking.
I hope this straightened things up.

Grüsse,


MarK


----------



## avok

MarX said:


> I'd just like to inform you that I have asked many people here in Germany, and posed the question even in the German forum, and *Schwarzkopf* as such is never used.
> If you got this (false) information from a German, then s/he probably had been joking.
> I hope this straightened things up.
> 
> Grüsse,
> 
> 
> MarK


 
Hi,

As what? I did not understand it   It is never used for Turks? or never used for Italians? Or the word itself is never used? I am confused


----------



## MarX

avok said:


> Hi,
> 
> As what? I did not understand it  It is never used for Turks? or never used for Italians? Or the word itself is never used? I am confused


I mean *Schwarzkopf* as an appellation for Mediterranean people, including Turks and/or Arabs.
I also asked whether it was perhaps common in the sixties, but even then the answer is negative.
The only things people are reminded of from hearing the word is the Schwartzkopf brand for hair products, or a family name.

Grüsse,


MarK


----------



## Lingvisten

In Denmark the nordic countries (Norden) is considered: Denmark (including Greenland and Faroes islands), Sweden, Norway, Finland and Iceland. Scandinavia is here only considered Denmark, Norway and Sweden.


----------



## Sepia

Lingvisten said:


> In Denmark the nordic countries (Norden) is considered: Denmark (including Greenland and Faroes islands), Sweden, Norway, Finland and Iceland. Scandinavia is here only considered Denmark, Norway and Sweden.



Nordic, are you sure about Greenland, politically speaking? I was on the Greenland government website recently and could not find any confirmation of that. Another strange thing is that the citizens are considered EU-citizens, it says, but Greenland as such is not in the EU. Gives me the impression that they can move and settle freely in the EU/EEA but not vice versa.

Could, as an example, a Swede travel to Greenland without a passport or work there without a work permit? Under the rules of the Nordic Countries I mean. I suppose they are not even EEA.


----------



## Lingvisten

okay. I actually don't know. Maybe is just an empirial danish view, that makes Greenland, in my mind, a part of norden . That is probably due to most danes seeing Greenland more as a part of the danish kingdom, than as an independent state. Someday they'll be independent, and then i would think, that they are not a part of norden. But Greenland is definitly in a very tricky position. Is finnish Åland considered Scandinavian? I would think that swedes could travel without passport, but haven't checked it yet.


----------



## avok

MarX said:


> I mean *Schwarzkopf* as an appellation for Mediterranean people, including Turks and/or Arabs.
> I also asked whether it was perhaps common in the sixties, but even then the answer is negative.
> The only things people are reminded of from hearing the word is the Schwartzkopf brand for hair products, or a family name.
> 
> Grüsse,
> 
> 
> MarK


 



> Originally Posted by *MarX*
> I'd just like to inform you that I have asked many people here in Germany, and posed the question even in the German forum, and *Schwarzkopf* as such is never used.
> If you got this (false) information from a German, then s/he probably had been joking.
> I hope this straightened things up.


 
Nooooo. Noone was joking. Schwarzkopf or any other slang "is" used for "people with dark hair" in Germany and in Nordic countries. It has even a Danish equivalent: "Perker" a slang word for people with dark hair... it does not sound very "chic", I guess. 

In 2003, In Danemark which is a Nordic country, a Turkish boy did not get the job (an internship) just because he was a "perker" or a "p" to make it sound more acceptable. And it was not a "joke". You can read it here in Danish and Turkish. He had recourse to Danish courts but did get nothing. Fortunately, he decides to bring his case before the "Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination" (United Nations) and the Committee decides that he was discriminated.

The funny thing is when we discuss about the blond hair of the Nordic people even on a simple forum like this, some foreros find it "racist" but when it comes to the slang words used for the dark haired people in Nordic countries everybody gets silent..."it is oh so quiet" just like Björk says  No, it is not a joke...


----------



## Lingvisten

It is true, that the word "perker" is used alot in Denmark, in almost the same way as "nigger" is used in USA. It is, like in the states, very offensive, and political incorrect (don't know if this is the right term). The word is used by alot of young imigrants them selves as an identity, nor Danish neither Middleeastern. The word is a contraction of "perser"(Persian) and "Tyrker" (Turkish) and only describe those who come from the islamic countries. This has nothing to do with dark haired people from south Europe. I don't think the use of offensive words toward foreigner is something specifically nordic. I've seen racism in every country I've visited.


----------



## MarX

avok said:


> Nooooo. Noone was joking. Schwarzkopf or any other slang "is" used for "people with dark hair" in Germany and in Nordic countries. It has even a Danish equivalent: "Perker" a slang word for people with dark hair... it does not sound very "chic", I guess.
> 
> In 2003, In Danemark which is a Nordic country, a Turkish boy did not get the job (an internship) just because he was a "perker" or a "p" to make it sound more acceptable. And it was not a "joke". You can read it here in Danish and Turkish. He had recourse to Danish courts but did get nothing. Fortunately, he decides to bring his case before the "Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination" (United Nations) and the Committee decides that he was discriminated.
> 
> The funny thing is when we discuss about the blond hair of the Nordic people even on a simple forum like this, some foreros find it "racist" but when it comes to the slang words used for the dark haired people in Nordic countries everybody gets silent..."it is oh so quiet" just like Björk says  No, it is not a joke...


 
I can assure you that of the many people I asked, nobody has ever heard *Schwarzkopf* used as an appellation in Germany.
You can ask anybody who's lived in Germany for some time, be it Germans, or Ausländer.
Could you specifiy where you got this information from, please? Perhaps I can inform myself more, knowing which people I should rather ask.
Thank you!

Btw, we're straying off-topic here. We could open a new thread specifically about Schwarzkopf, if you'd like.


MarK


----------



## Sepia

I have never heard "Schwarzkopf" either, but I don't hang around with neo-nazis or other racists anyway - I mention this because a few threads up it was mentioned as equivalent to "perker" in Danish. In Denmark I don't hang around with people who use this kind of racist terms either. I used to teach karate in Copenhagen and if anyone had dared to use such words in the dojo we'd have told them they were out of line, or finally kicked them out.


----------



## MarX

Sepia said:


> I have never heard "Schwarzkopf" either, but I don't hang around with neo-nazis or other racists anyway - I mention this because a few threads up it was mentioned as equivalent to "perker" in Danish. In Denmark I don't hang around with people who use this kind of racist terms either. I used to teach karate in Copenhagen and if anyone had dared to use such words in the dojo we'd have told them they were out of line, or finally kicked them out.


But I suppose in Denmark most of the lay people at least know that "perker" is used as such an appellation, whereas all of the people I asked didn't even know that the word *Schwarzkopf* existed as such. At the most, some were reminded of the brand of hair products, the one written with a T.


----------



## Sepia

MarX said:


> But I suppose in Denmark most of the lay people at least know that "perker" is used as such an appellation, whereas all of the people I asked didn't even know that the word *Schwarzkopf* existed as such. At the most, some were reminded of the brand of hair products, the one written with a T.



Translated into Swedish it could be "Svartskalle" (actually "black skull") - that in fact is a word used by racists. Maybe somebody was talking with a Swede and thought he was German.

(Thanks for mentioning my nice client "Schwarzkopf" - shampoo etc.)


----------



## Porteño

I think that in the UK, the concept of Nordic would be the Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden and Denmark), including Finland, and perhaps Iceland, Greenland and the Faroes, although I believe that most people would not include the last three if they were asked 'off the cuff'.


----------



## Basaloe

In the Nordic countries Finland is clearly a part of "Nordic", but not Scandinavia. But it seems like non-nordic people use Scandinavia to the nordic countries. "Norden" is difficult to translate since it means "The North" and can be used in many other ways... And Nordic sounds so ugly.


----------



## Ali Blabla

avok said:


> The term Nordic, here, usually refers to tall, blond, cold people with liberal attitudes of the North  sometimes, even Russia is considered as Nordic, which makes sense, since it IS up in the north. I also see no reason why we should not accept Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia as Nordic.



This is the very first time I've heard Russia considered as Nordic.


----------



## avok

Ali Blabla said:


> This is the very first time I've heard Russia considered as Nordic.


 
It is clearly neither southern nor mediterranean . So anywhere else ...


----------



## ByteofKnowledge

When I think of Nordic I think of cross-country skiing and shooting, plus some ski jumping...

Seriously though, I concur with the majority that it is a loose group of people or territory based around but not limited to Scandinavia.

I am surprised to see the OP didn't consider Norwegian, Danish, Swedish to be Germanic languages. They are so similar I can understand the gist of written communication in any of these languages thanks to my knowledge of German. They're as close to German as Italian is to French and Spanish, although a little further apart from it than most of the Slavic tongues are from each other I think.


----------



## Basaloe

ByteofKnowledge said:


> When I think of Nordic I think of cross-country skiing and shooting, plus some ski jumping...
> 
> Seriously though, I concur with the majority that it is a loose group of people or territory based around but not limited to Scandinavia.
> 
> I am surprised to see the OP didn't consider Norwegian, Danish, Swedish to be Germanic languages. They are so similar I can understand the gist of written communication in any of these languages thanks to my knowledge of German. They're as close to German as Italian is to French and Spanish, although a little further apart from it than most of the Slavic tongues are from each other I think.



I would say italian and spanish for example is waaaay more similar than scandinavian languages and german. Its true that most of the words come from the german language but ask a scandi if he understand a little german without studying it and the answer is "no", which is not the case for a spanish man understanding italian.


----------



## MarX

Basaloe said:


> I would say italian and spanish for example is waaaay more similar than scandinavian languages and german. Its true that most of the words come from the german language but ask a scandi if he understand a little german without studying it and the answer is "no", which is not the case for a spanish man understanding italian.


 
I agree.
Although for a German it is quite easy to learn Swedish within a relatively short time. I guess not the other way around since German grammar is more complicated.

But we're drifting off topic here.


----------



## Mate

MarX said:


> But we're drifting off topic here.


I agree.
*
Moderator's note: please stay on topic.*

*Topic:  I would like to know what you understand by "Nordic", or what "Nordic" means to you.

Does it includes Finland and/or the Finnish language?


Thank you all.


*


----------

