# What is the best English translation of the word "εἰμί"?



## TruthSeeker81

Hi all,

What is the best English translation of the word "εἰμί"?

Is it the English word "am" or is it the English word "have been"?

If it is best translated one way or the other, is it possible the opposite English word/translation could be relevant too?

Thanks!


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## Perseas

TruthSeeker81 said:


> What is the best English translation of the word "εἰμί"?
> 
> Is it the English word "am" or is it the English word "have been"?


"εἰμί" = "am"



TruthSeeker81 said:


> If it is best translated one way or the other, is it possible the opposite English word/translation could be relevant too?


I can't see how that could be... Do you have an example?


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## TruthSeeker81

Thanks for the reply. Here is the example you asked for:

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς  Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν  πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι  ἐγὼ εἰμί 

John 8:58 Interlinear: Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am;'


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## Perseas

OK, thanks. In that case the English verb that came to mind is "exist". I am not sure about "have been", maybe you are right.


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## TruthSeeker81

I really appreciate your reply.

So you are saying "εἰμί" could be similar to the English word "exist"?

The English verb "exist" could very strongly correlate with the English word "existed" or "have been" no?

Basically, can "εἰμί" mean person X "εἰμi" ("existed" or "have been") before person "Y"?

Would this be a fair and accurate assessment of the word "εἰμί"?


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## Perseas

TruthSeeker81 said:


> Basically, can "εἰμί" mean person X "εἰμi" ("existed" or "have been") before person "Y"?


Here the present tense "εἰμί"  emphasizes the continuity of Jesus' presence/existence, which started in the past (before Abraham's coming) and continues in the present. Maybe "I 've been living/existing.."?


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## Scholiast

χαίρετε ὦ φίλοι

Theologically and philologically there is more to it. It's a reference to _Exodus_, 3.14, God's declaration to Moses, אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה... "I am who I am".

Jahweh was, in Jewish thought, the great existential basis of everything, above and beyond time, and tensing of the verb is (in both Jewish and Christian mainstream theology) utterly irrelevant.

Σ


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## TruthSeeker81

Perseas said:


> Here the present tense "εἰμί"  emphasizes the continuity of Jesus' presence/existence, which started in the past (before Abraham's coming) and continues in the present. Maybe "I 've been living/existing.."?



This makes sense. The Greek word " ἐγὼ" means "I" in English.

As you said, the Greek word "εἰμί" could be translated as I "have been living/existing" 

So to say " ἐγὼ εἰμί" very well could be translated: "I have been existing" before Abraham. Or, "I existed" before Abraham.

Seem correct or no?


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## Perseas

TruthSeeker81 said:


> This makes sense. The Greek word " ἐγὼ" means "I" in English.
> 
> As you said, the Greek word "εἰμί" could be translated as I "have been living/existing"
> 
> So to say " ἐγὼ εἰμί" very well could be translated: "I have been existing" before Abraham. Or, "I existed" before Abraham.
> 
> Seem correct or no?


About this context: The use of the verb "εἰμί" refers to the continual existence of Jesus. Not only did Jesus exist before Abraham but ALWAYS and FOREVER, and hence the use of the present tense ("εἰμί"). He is "above and beyond time", to use a phrase from Scholiast. I am not sure about the best English translation, but this is how I understand "εἰμί".


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## TruthSeeker81

Scholiast said:


> χαίρετε ὦ φίλοι
> 
> Theologically and philologically there is more to it. It's a reference to _Exodus_, 3.14, God's declaration to Moses, אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה... "I am who I am".
> 
> Jahweh was, in Jewish thought, the great existential basis of everything, above and beyond time, and tensing of the verb is (in both Jewish and Christian mainstream theology) utterly irrelevant.
> 
> Σ



Hi Scholiast and Perseas again,

I realize that most mainstream translations cross reference Exodus 3:14 with John 8:58 and translate "εἰμί" as "Am". However, there are multiple translations that do not cross reference John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14 and these translations translate "εἰμί" as "have been" or "exist/existed". I am sure arguments can be made on both sides regarding pairing or not pairing Exodus 3:14 with John 8:58.

I don't want to make this into a religious debate so maybe I shouldn't have said John 8:58 is the example. My apologies. I'm more interested in what the Greek word "εἰμί" means or could be translated into, not what Hebrew words and attempts to pair it with particular Hebrew scripture are as a Hebrew precedent.

For the sake of argument, if we took Exodus 3:14 out of the equation and even took the example of John 8:58 out of the equation (the Bible out of the equation entirely), would it be possible for the word "εἰμί" to mean as Perseas said  "been living/existing/existed"?

Basically, if I was talking to someone in the present moment about having a sibling who I was born/existed before and who passed away before this moment in time would "εἰμί" be appropriate in this context?

Something similar to "λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν (my sibling) γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί
or in English: "I say to you before (my sibling) was I "have been/existing/existed".

Thanks


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## Perseas

TruthSeeker81 said:


> Basically, if I was talking to someone in the present moment about having a sibling who I was born/existed before and who passed away before this moment in time would "εἰμί" be appropriate in this context?


 Yes, in Greek it would be appropriate.

Here's a Greek-English online dictionary: the verb "εἰμί" with meanings and examples.
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott,  A Greek-English Lexicon, ε , εἰλυσπ-άομαι , εἰμί


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## Scholiast

Greetings once again

OK, taking the scriptural references out of consideration, to be candid I think the question is more about English than it is about Greek. The present perfect continuous tense ("I have been living...") is regularly and idiomatically used in English to indicate an action or a state of affairs which began in the past but still continues in the present ("I have been teaching at my present school for five years" implies "and I am still doing so"). In most of the modern languages known to me (French, German, Spanish, Russian) this is conveyed by a simple present tense ("Seit fünf Jahren *arbeite* ich in dieser Schule..."), and I have no reason to suppose that Greek, classical or modern, is any different.

Σ


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## TruthSeeker81

Thank you very much for you help guys


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## sotos

The Greeks and Greek-educated people of Jesus time  wouldn't enter  in a scholastic analysis of that ειμί. He could equally use ήν (I was) with the same theological result.


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## Αγγελος

Bear in mind that the New Testament was written in Greek by people for whom it was a foreign language. Some constructions in it are just plain ungrammatical, though perfectly clear, an extreme case being  ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος (Rev. 1:8)


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## mysunrise

Hi!
As you said very well, Christ is above and beyond time.
He is not limited from time.

So, the right tense is "*ειμί*" (ancient greek) or "*είμαι*" (modern greek) and "*am*" in the english language (simple present) expressing a permanent state and not an action that is happening now (present continuous), or happened before another in the past (past perfect), or started in the past and continues up to the present and maybe in the future (present perfect). The explanation of the use of the verb in the present, in the greek language, in this case, denotes a matter of the Christian dogma.

Greetings


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## TruthSeeker81

mysunrise said:


> Hi!
> As you said very well, Christ is above and beyond time.
> He is not limited from time.
> 
> So, the right tense is "*ειμί*" (ancient greek) or "*είμαι*" (modern greek) and "*am*" in the english language (simple present) expressing a permanent state and not an action that is happening now (present continuous), or happened before another in the past (past perfect), or started in the past and continues up to the present and maybe in the future (present perfect). The explanation of the use of the verb in the present, in the greek language, in this case, denotes a matter of the Christian dogma.
> 
> Greetings



Yes, as you so accurately stated, in this case, the word translation of the word *ειμί *could be a matter of Christian dogma.

Mainstream Christian's believe Jesus always was, is and will always be. That Jesus is the Almighty God. However, this can debated either way and I don't think this is the best avenue for that debate. With the assumption that Jesus is God, it appears it is easy to make the translation and assumption that *ειμί *means "Am", because "Am" seems to imply "infinity" and "always existed" even though grammatically it doesn't make sense in English. "Am" can mean, well almost anything you want it to mean. Translating this word as "Am" does seem to fit a religious narrative/viewpoint if translated this way, making sense grammatically or not.

As I said before, I shouldn't have said John 8:58 is the example. My apologies. I'm more interested in what the Greek word "εἰμί" means or could be translated into instead of attempts to pair it with particular religious precedents or particular religious belief.

I think I received multiple satisfying answers when I later asked to take all religion and belief of any religious doctrine or religious precedent out of it.

When I asked "would it be possible for the word "εἰμί" to mean "been living/existing/existed"? The forum member Perseas said yes, this translation from the Greek word would be appropriate.
The forum member Sotos later said this word could also be translated as "I was". The translation of the word into "I was" would be similar to the translation of "been living/existing/existed".
The forum member scholastic later said this word could also be translated as "I have been living". The translation of the word into "I have been living" would also be similar to the translation of "been living/existing/existed/I was".

Their three replies seems to strengthen my belief that "been living/existing/existed/I was (existing)" is an accurate translation of the Greek word *ειμί*.

When taking all religious belief and precedent out of the translation of the word, was Perseas, Sotos and Scholastic all in error when they said "been living/existing/existed/I was" are other ways of appropriately translating of the word *ειμί*? According to my research, I am leaning towards no, they are not in error.

Basically, if I was talking to someone in the present moment about having a sibling who I was born/existed before and who passed away before this moment in time would "εἰμί" be appropriate in this context?

Something similar to "λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν (my sibling) γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί
or in English: "I say to you before (my sibling) was I "have been/existing/existed".

As was stated previously, not only does the translation of the word *ειμί *as "have been"/"existed"/"existing" (or "I was") make more sense grammatically in English, it appears by my research that translating this Greek word this way is also another accurate translation of the word if used in the above context.

Or is this in error? More replies are welcome from everyone.


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## mysunrise

Hi again. 

Well, my comments had to do with the translation of the excerpt of the New Testament you provided. That´s why I tried to explain a few things. A good translation, as you may well know, is not only a matter of words, but also means taking into consideration other factors (the context, who the speaker is, what it says and why, to whom the text is addressed to, and.... a very long "etc"....).

Taking God out,
the frases "λέγω ὑμῖν πρὶν (my sibling, my brother, my father, whoever...) γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ *εἰμί*" (m.gr: *είμαι*) even in the Greek language does not make any sense, word by word (ask Perseas, or whoever Greek). They will all tell you that in this frase or similar ones a logical use of the verb would be:
"*ήμην*" (m.gr.: ήμουν),
*υπήρχον* (m.gr.: υπήρχα)
(m.gr.: *είχα υπάρξει*,) sorry, I don't remember the ancient equivalent Greek here.

A Greek would never say ειμί in this frase. *Ειμί (είμαι)* is in the present tense.
Here, the reference has to do with the past. "_When my sibling was (born), I had already existed/been (in the hospital, whatever..)_" would sound as one of the logical phrases. Two past actions (conditions), one before the other.

So, the argument that in the English language *am *doesn't make sense, applies also to *ειμί* in the Greek language.

Putting God in the phrase,
in order a translation to be as good as possible, sometimes we have before to consider some points (_and this is not a sermon_).
He who talks in this phrase is Christ, not John. John transfers on paper what Christ had already said. So, Christ breaks the grammatical rule with *ειμί*, because in this phrase emphasizes on his divine essence, which is above the past, the present, and the future. God is not subject to time or space. God is above Abraham and all humans. In this phrase, Christ discloses that is God. God is "there" always. *The illogical "ειμί"* here, only makes sense if you consider the divinity. This is what you have to translate here (the permanent, the quality of being beyond time). If you know the right tense in English that expresses this meaning, and this is not _*the illogical "am"*_, well done!.
It is not a dog-rabbit thing in the line of time, where the dog running after the rabbit declares proudly: "Hello, I had been there before you stole the carrot" 
The meaning is different.

I hope I've helped a little.
Greetings


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## Perseas

mysunrise said:


> Here, the reference has to do with the past. "_When my sibling was (born), I had already existed/been (in the hospital, whatever..)_" would sound as one of the logical phrases. Two past actions (conditions), one before the other.


The present tense in Greek can expess (among other things) an action that begun in the past but its effects still exist. And I believe TruthSeeker81 refers to this use of the present tense.


TruthSeeker81 said:


> Basically, if I was talking to someone in the *present moment* about having a sibling who I was born/existed before and who passed away before *this moment *in time would "εἰμί" be appropriate in this context?


_-Μένω εδώ από το 1980, πολύ καιρό πριν γεννηθείς εσύ.
-Είναι δημοσιογράφος εδώ και πέντε χρόνια. _
-_Η σχετική νομοθεσία υπάρχει εδώ και μια δεκαετία._

_
_


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## mysunrise

Hi Perseas,
I agree with your examples, I can also add more.
But, "πριν γεννηθείς εσύ, εγώ είμαι" is not correct Greek.


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## Perseas

mysunrise said:


> Hi Perseas,
> I agree with your examples, I can also add more.
> But, "πριν γεννηθείς εσύ, εγώ είμαι" is not correct Greek.


Hello mysunrise,

I agree that this sentence is problematic. "πριν γεννηθείς εσύ, εγώ ήμουν" does not make any sense either.

However I think that TruthSeeker81 was more interested in that use of the present tense, to which I referred in my previous post (e.g. doesn't "εγώ είμαι εδώ, πολύ πριν γεννηθείς εσύ" sound better?"), than  in the correctness of every single sentence, which can (among others) depend on the context. And yes, this use of the present tense is right.


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## Scholiast

χαίρετ᾽ ὦ φίλοι



Αγγελος said:


> the New Testament was written in Greek by people for whom it was a foreign language



Point of information: this probably does not apply to Luke.

Σ


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## mysunrise

Perseas said:


> Hello mysunrise,
> 
> I agree that this sentence is problematic. "πριν γεννηθείς εσύ, εγώ ήμουν" does not make any sense either.
> 
> However I think that TruthSeeker81 was more interested in that use of the present tense, to which I referred in my previous post (e.g. doesn't "εγώ είμαι εδώ, πολύ πριν γεννηθείς εσύ" sound better?"), than  in the correctness of every single sentence, which can (among others) depend on the context. And yes, this use of the present tense is right.



Yes, it sounds much better, but
"Εγώ είμαι εδώ" (μένω, βρίσκομαι, "υπάρχω"*=*"βρίσκομαι")
is not the same with
"εγώ είμαι" (which, approaches more to the meaning of _exist, υπάρχω _in the Bible text)

You may say, of course, "Εγώ είμαι εδώ στο φόρουμ, πολύ πριν γεννηθείς/έρθεις εσύ"

Greetings


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