# Vowels! Shades, Colors, Lengths, Etc.



## biocrite

Hello.

I have a question about pronunciation. I know that a lot of french vowels make the similar sounds - "u" and "ou" for example, and "eu".

What are the differences between:

" ai " and " é " ?

And between 

" o, " " au, " and " eau " ?

Also, can you explain the difference between

" eu " and the letter " e " please?

Thankyou.

Edit:  and what about " œu " like in " cœur " and " sœur " ?


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## Franglais1969

Hello,

Personally I think a lot of this depends on regional dialect.

I have heard *ai/ais/ait *pronounced exactly the same as *er/ez/é*, I have also heard it pronounced with a lot less emphasis, (shorter if you like).

However, I shall let someone like egueuel or Qcumber give you an essay on the subject.


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## Outsider

biocrite said:


> I have a question about pronunciation. I know that a lot of french vowels make the similar sounds - "u" and "ou" for example, and "eu".


I disagree that those are similar sounds. Certainly not similar enough to be confused in French! But moving on...



biocrite said:


> What are the differences between:
> 
> " ai " and " é " ?


In some cases, they are pronounced the same way, but normally "ai" is an open-mid front unrounded vowel (like the English "e" in "egg"), while "é" is a close-mid front unrounded vowel (English "egg" pronounced with an Australian accent).



biocrite said:


> And between
> 
> " o, " " au, " and " eau " ?


They are typically pronounced the same way. The vowel "o" has a slightly different pronunciation in some words, but it's not a very important distinction, in French.



biocrite said:


> Also, can you explain the difference between
> 
> " eu " and the letter " e " please?


Ouch! You've just opened a can of worms with that one! 



biocrite said:


> Thankyou.
> 
> Edit:  and what about " œu " like in " cœur " and " sœur " ?


After that other thread, I'm afraid to talk about those vowels anymore. All I can say is that they are front _rounded_ vowels, and usually a difficulty for foreigners.


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## biocrite

Thank you, Outsider.

Hmm. . . this is getting complicated.

What about rhyming. . .

Do the sets above rhyme to the French ear?


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## Outsider

It depends on the specific words, I'm afraid. (With the exception of "au" and "eau", which do sound always the same, to the best of my knowledge.)


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## biocrite

Je parlais,
Il a parlé.

For instance, rhymes, then, no?

What about. . 

Je mangai,
Vous allez manger,
j'ai plongé

?


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## Outsider

biocrite said:


> Je parlais,
> Il a parlé.
> 
> For instance, rhymes, then, no?
> 
> What about. .
> 
> Je mangeai,
> Vous allez manger,
> j'ai plongé
> 
> ?


Just a spelling correction. Attendez les natifs !


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## Qcumber

*È*
parlait [par'lè]
parlerait [par loe 'rè]
est [è]
poulet [pu 'lè] (some mispronounce it: *[pu 'lé])

*É*
parler [par'lé]
parlez [par'lé]
parlé [par'lé]
parlai [par'lé]
parlerai [par loe 'ré] (many people mispronounce it: *[par loe 'rè])
ai [é]
et [é]


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## Outsider

Qcumber said:


> poulet [pu 'lè] (some mispronounce it: *[pu 'lé])
> 
> parlerai [par loe 'ré] (many people mispronounce it: *[par loe 'rè])


What makes those mispronunciations, if I may ask?


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## Qcumber

These are not the pronunciations of standard French, good French.


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## Outsider

The one from Paris, or the one from Québec?


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## Qcumber

Outsider said:


> The one from Paris, or the one from Québec?


 
France of course for Europeans!  Do you take Brazilian pronunciation as the standard for Portuguese in Portugal?


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## biocrite

Oh thank you, Qcumber.

That's reaally hard though.  Wow.

Gaurav.


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## Nicomon

Qcumber said:


> France of course for Europeans!  Do you take Brazilian pronunciation as the standard for Portuguese in Portugal?


 
For the record... we use the same "standard French" as examples posted in #8, as far as verbs are concerned. However Quebecers make a very disctinct difference between the sounds é/ai /er /ez and ais/ait/è.

You will not hear poul*é* for poulet or parloer*è *for (future tense) parlerai in Montreal.  

Je parlai*s* (*è*) (past tense) and Il a parlé (*é)* definitely do not rhyme here.


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## Trina

Bonjour. 
I can't tell whether I'm happy or sad that I discovered this thread. 
I thought I was clear in the differences but now I am not sure.

The egg example given by Outsider didn't help as I was unaware Australians pronounced it differently from the English. (egg rhymes with leg rhymes with beg etc)



Qcumber said:


> *È*
> parlait [par'lè]
> parlerait [par loe 'rè]
> est [è]
> poulet [pu 'lè] (some mispronounce it: *[pu 'lé])
> To give an example of the sound in English, would this be similar to the "ai" sound as in "f*ai*r"?
> Does this vowel sound differ from le p*è*re ou la m*e*r ou la t*ê*te?
> 
> *É*
> parler [par'lé]
> parlez [par'lé]
> parlé [par'lé]
> parlai [par'lé]
> parlerai [par loe 'ré] (many people mispronounce it: *[par loe 'rè])
> ai [é]
> et [é]To give an example of the sound in English, would this be similar to the "ay" sound as in "p*ay*"?
> Does this vowel sound differ from l'*é*t*é*?



Please Help!


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## Qcumber

Trina, French vowels are different from English vowels.
The vowel of *père *is not so open as that of *fair*.
É as in *été *is quite different from the diphthong of *pay*.


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## Agnès E.

The best advice I can give you is to try this site to hear how French people pronounce (this is the most neutral way of pronounciating French, with no regional accent--could be what is taught as "Parisian French"). Type the words and listen to them. The site is amazing!

For instance, French people tend not to pronunce and ending _-ai_ (like in _mangerai_) like an _é_ any more, whereas it seems that Canadians still do. I'm not sure, but I think that Belgians still do as well.

Neverthless, I fairly doubt that written discussions about pronunciation can bring something useful... especially since we've already had dozens in this forum.


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## gilou

Agnès E. said:


> The best advice I can give you is to try this site to hear how French people pronounce (this is the most neutral way of pronounciating French, with no regional accent--could be what is taught as "Parisian French"). Type the words and listen to them. The site is amazing!


I tried it on a their News page, it was very unnatural speech (pause in bad locations, delays in the syllable junctures that made vowels sound longer...). The standard french pronunciation is the one from the Anjou region, I think. Up to 60 years ago, "working class" parisian french had a pronunciation of the r as very uvular, very back in the throat, named "r grasseye", which was very different from standard french. (It sounded like some arabic consonnant to my ears)
A+,


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## Qcumber

I've just tried *été* with Acapella robot Bruno. His pronunciation is wrong. He says: *èté.


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## Outsider

Trina said:


> The egg example given by Outsider didn't help as I was unaware Australians pronounced it differently from the English. (egg rhymes with leg rhymes with beg etc)


Take a look at the vowel charts below:

Received pronunciation
General American

For these two, the "e" in "egg" is the epsilon.

Australian English

For this one, the "e" is most definitely [e], not [epsilon].


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## Trina

Bonjour,
Thank you all very much for your help, especially Qcumber, Agnès E & Outsider.


Qcumber said:


> Trina, French vowels are different from English vowels.
> The vowel of *père *is not so open as that of *fair*.
> É as in *été *is quite different from the diphthong of *pay*.


I know that there is a difference between the English & French vowel sounds but I was trying to find two English words as close to the sound as possible so that I could relate to the difference (especially between "parlerai" and "parlerait") Are my examples close enough to distinguish the difference?



Agnès E. said:


> The best advice I can give you is to try this site [...]


Thank you for this site. I do have some French tapes and I watch as many French movies as I can. It's just that I hadn't taken any notice of the difference before (especially between "parlerai" and "parlerait")  Now that this has been pointed out to me, I'll endeavour to pay more attention and listen more closely.



Outsider said:


> Take a look at the vowel charts below:[...]


Sorry, but this is all Greek to me.
Using Agnès E's "Acapela Group" there is a choice between US and UK English. I put "egg" into it and I don't believe I say egg any differently to the UK version.
(I _can_ hear the difference between the UK and US words.) I don't know how it is imagined we pronounce it. If you mean we pronounce it something like  "aig" - then that's way off course.  Unfortunately, it has been awhile since I have studied phoenetics and just looking at those pages are enough for me to start reaching for an aspirin (looks like I might have to relearn)

I am still a little confused...but I suppose knowing, at least, that there _is_ a difference is half the battle.


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## HecateTs

> I have a question about pronunciation. I know that a lot of french vowels make the similar sounds - "u" and "ou" for example, and "eu".


 
No ! u, ou and eu are different sounds !!! Really different !



> What are the differences between:
> 
> " ai " and " é " ?


 
[ai] is like in "said"
[é] is like in the first sound of exectional



> And between
> 
> " o, " " au, " and " eau " ?


 
You pronounce it exactly the same.
Like [f] and [ph] are ponounce the same in both english and french.



> Also, can you explain the difference between
> 
> " eu " and the letter " e " please?


 
It depends. [eu] is pronounced like in Euclidian , or sometimes louder (close a little your mouth).
The exception is "Il eut un probleme" which is the verb "avoir" (->"eu") and which is pronounced (in THAT case) the french sound "u"

e is pronounced like the first sound of eurekâ
Sometimes you just do not pronounce it (rivière -> pronounced rivièr'). It especially happened when "e" is at the end of a word.



> Edit: and what about " œu " like in " cœur " and " sœur " ?


Like "eu" (coeur, soeur, fleur, heure, ...) like in "fluffy" or "sister" ^^

I hope this help.
If you see any mistake/If you disagree/if you have a question... just tell me !


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## HecateTs

> the difference (especially between "parlerai" and "parlerait")



As a french ^^ I pronounce it the same way.


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## Outsider

Trina said:


> It's just that I hadn't taken any notice of the difference before (especially between "parlerai" and "parlerait")  Now that this has been pointed out to me, I'll endeavour to pay more attention and listen more closely.


Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about _that_! Even native speakers sometimes pronounce _-ai-_ as "è" in verb endings.
Let's face it, when it comes to learning sounds, nothing beats having a fluent speaker to listen to.


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## HecateTs

I pronounce it "è" too ^^ *laugh*


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## Qcumber

HecateTs said:


> It depends. [eu] is pronounced like in Euclidian , or sometimes louder (close a little your mouth).


 
This is wrong! French <eu> has never been pronounced as the English <eu> in Euclidian!


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## Qcumber

Trina, as regards the contrast between <é> and <è>, here is a good example: *était* "was, 3rd pers. sg." - which is pronounced <é-'tè> - Vs *été* "been". 
Do not bother about the future and the conditional (e.g. serai Vs serais), many French people confuse them.


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## biocrite

Une plus response, s'il vous plaît.

Le son des lettres "OU" - je ne peux pas le comprendre.

On pronounce "jour" comme "jOr" , n'est-ce pas?
Et on pronounce "four" comme "fOr", comme le mot en anglais.

Mais on pronounce "toujours" avec le premier "ou" plus près de "U" longue anglais . . . jusqu'a point que "tU-jOrs."

Pourquoi? Est-ce que c'est possible que les lettres se pronounce comme un "O" quand il y a un "R" après eux et comme un "U" longue anglais quand il n'y en a pas?

Est-ce que je suis exact?


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## Outsider

biocrite said:


> Une plus response, s'il vous plaît.
> 
> Le son des lettres "OU" - je ne peux pas le comprendre.
> 
> On pronounce "jour" comme "jOr" , n'est-ce pas?


Non ! "Jour" se prononce /zh*u*r/.



biocrite said:


> Et on pronounce "four" comme "fOr", comme le mot en anglais.


Absolument pas comme en anglais ! Où avez-vous trouvé cette idée ?



biocrite said:


> Mais on pronounce "toujours" avec le premier "ou" plus près de "U" longue anglais . . . jusqu'a point que "tU-jOrs."


Les deux "ou" de "toujours" se prononcent de la même façon. Et l'anglais est un mauvais terme de comparaison, franchement. La plupart des voyelles du français ne s'y trouvent pas.

Seule une question: est-ce que vous êtes en train d'apprendre le français du Québec ? Je ne sais beaucoup sur ceci. Il peut être que la prononciation que vous avez indiqué soit correcte au français québecois...


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## Agnès E.

biocrite said:


> Le son des lettres "OU" - je ne peux pas le comprendre.
> 
> On pronounce "jour" comme "jOr" , n'est-ce pas?
> Et on pronounce "four" comme "fOr", comme le mot en anglais.
> 
> Mais on pronounce "toujours" avec le premier "ou" plus près de "U" longue anglais . . . jusqu'a point que "tU-jOrs."
> 
> Pourquoi? Est-ce que c'est possible que les lettres se pronounce comme un "O" quand il y a un "R" après eux et comme un "U" longue anglais quand il n'y en a pas?
> 
> Est-ce que je suis exact?


No, I'm afraid not. 

French _OU_ can be compared to the English _OO_ (just shorter in French). Toujours = too-joor


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## john_riemann_soong

French vowels slip me into such a mood, I've been unconsciously using them in Mandarin recently, complete with liaison.  (_yi ge ren_ => _igren_)

This was brought up in the thread (so kindly linked), but I'm still confused, because it appears there are people who have conflicting information.

I thought "ai" was more open than "ais/ait/aient", etc. I didn't know "est" was pronounced like a closed e as well. In fact, I'm becoming rather confused abotu the closed e ... I think I fear that I end up hypercorrecting myself, as usually most of my pronounciations end up being okay but I never perceived them as different/same. 

Something I have trouble with is "é" at the beginning of a word, e.g. "était" .... I've always pronounced it a bit more closed than the "é" in say, "cliché".


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## biocrite

Eh, bien.

J'ai trouvé cette idée de mon prof de français. Elle pronounce les mots comme j'ai expliqué.

Et je l'ai démander si tous les sons des lettres "é, ai, ais, ait, ez, er" se pronouncent même, et elle a dit que oui.

Peut-être elle a apprendre un dialect du français qui a quelques différences. Elle a habité une anée en France, et la visite encore. Je sais pas quel coin en France. Mais elle nous a expliqué qu'il y avait des différences en pronounciation, mais les sons se sont remué comme le "j'aurai" et "j'aurais" se pronouncaient pas même il y a longtemps.


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## Qcumber

French is a standardized language. A teacher is not supposed to teach a regional variety. Beware of teachers who claim they speak one. They generally say so to cover their deficiencies. Even so, from what you reported, I'm afraid her French pronunciation is wrong.


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## Outsider

C'est aussi possible qu'elle ait trop simplifié ses explications phonétiques. Ce n'est pas facile d'expliquer la prononciation à des élèves qui ne connaissent pas de notation phonétique. Ou il peut-être que l'explication soit bonne, mais Biocrite ne l'ait pas entendu bien. La majorité des personnes ne sont pas très bonnes à classifier les sons qu'elles écoutent.


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## Qcumber

Enseigner la prononciation d'une langue sans symboles phonétiques est une erreur et j'ai été choqué lorsque j'ai découvert que de nombreux professeurs de langue(s) ne les connaissent pas. Comment font-ils pour lire la phonétique dans les dictionnaires bilingues?
Cela étant dit, si vraiment les symboles phonétiques paraissent trop compliqués, on peut toujours faire des colonnes de mots qui ont le même phonème étudié en commun.
Par exemple faire une colonne de mots français d'une syllabe ayant la voyelle <ou> dans différents environnements consonantiques est à la portée de n'importe qui, même d'un professeur amateur.


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## john_riemann_soong

One can teach by /phoneme/ without relying on [phones] with their funny inscriptions, n'est-ce pas?

I have several idiosyncrasies for English, like distinguishing /o/ and /oh/, /w/ and /wh/, /w/ and /wr/, /gn/ and /n/, /kn/ and /n/, things I acquired in my childhood because no one ever "corrected" me on them (and I use them proudly - the "silent letter" concept can mostly _va se faire _ - e.g. for me /gn/ is mainly /n/ with a soft nasal click). 

They rarely (as far as I know, never) inhibit communication. Is failure to make the distinction between /ait/, /ai/, /é/ etc. on the same level, or is it much more grave?


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