# holocaust



## libertylover

How do different countries commemerate WWII and the Holocaust?


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## Silvia

In Italy we do not commemorate wars, we commemorate liberations! Those days are National holidays (one for WWI and one for WWII). 

About the Holocaust, we have the Day of the Memory (il giorno della memoria), for Jewish people "Shoah", on January 27th, anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, though it's not a National holiday.

If I'm not mistaken, we don't have a specific Remembrance Day, soldiers who died in war can be remembered on November 2nd (Day of the Dead) and on our Liberation Day.

How do we commemorate? Institutions arrange parades with town bands, wreaths are laid on war memorials and so on.


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## libertylover

Sorry I ment the endings of wars and commemorating the lost, and the victims


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## Mal

There is always November 11 - Remembrance Day. Here government employees have the day off,  and the stores (shops) are closed in the morning. I believe in Europe, where they were so close to the action, those remembrance days are celebrated more often.  I have a family member who lives in Firenze. Ciao


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## libertylover

Where is Firenze located?


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## Mal

Hi 
I was just showing off my Italian in reply to Silvia. Firenze is Florence, rather closer to the North of Italy. From there I took the train to Venice, so it's not too far away from there. Did you watch the Amazing Race? I love to travel.


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## Silvia

I know nothing about November 11th in Italy...


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## valerie

It seems I sent a message which has been lost...

In France we celebrate the 11th of November as the end of the 1st WW (the day the 'armistice was signed between French and German) It is the day to honour all dead soldiers and also former soldiers (although nowadays, few are still alive). Actually a lot of French and German soldiers* died in 1st WW (I think 1,5 million), much more than in 2nd WW. You can find a 1st WW memorial monument with the names of the dead soldiers in each small village of France, and generally soldiers dead in 2nd WW have been added, and more recently also soldiers dead in the 'Guerre d'Algérie'

In the 80's the government created a new holiday on 8 of MAy to celebrate the end of 2nd WW, but I think it has been cancelled (or is to be ) for 'economic' reasons

There is no special day to remember la Shoah, at least in business or school calenders

*They were not professional soldiers, but recruited soldiers, that is why there were so many, and from everywhere, and with such a social impact. In the Guerre d'Algérie, there were also a lot of 'civil' soldiers, the ones that were doing their 'service militaire' at that time.


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## dave

In the UK we also celebrate rememberance day on November 11th. It is not a public holiday, but at 11.00am (the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month - the anniversary of the end of WWI) there is a national 1 minute of silence, and there is a ceremony at the Cenotaph (the war memorial in Whitehall, London), usually involving politicians and the Queen. It is common for people to war red poppies in memory of the dead ('the fallen'), and people often also wear a white poppy of peace.

There are no specific commemorations with regard to the holocaust or WW2, although there are often events organised on 6th June to mark the anniversary of D-Day - this year was the 60th anniversary, and there were huge celebrations in Normandy. I believe this year was the first year that the German Prime Minister was invited.


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## ishatar

valerie said:
			
		

> Actually a lot of French and German soldiers* died in 1st WW (I think 1,5 million), much more than in 2nd WW.


6,160,800 French soldiers died in WW1 - or 73.3% of the mobilised men.


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## valerie

ishatar said:
			
		

> 6,160,800 French soldiers died in WW1 - or 73.3% of the mobilised men.



    Thanks Ishatar, are you sure they are French soldiers only?

After some research, I found an official site which says: 1,3 millions soldiers were granted the 'Mort pour la France' mention. ( those are the ones mentioned on the monument aux morst)
http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/


Here another estimation: total 9 millions persons died till the end of the war
http://crdp.ac-reims.fr/memoire/bac/1GM/connaissances/bilan.htm
 more than 2 millions Germans ;
        - 1,8 million de Russians ;
        - 750 0000 British ;
        - 650 0000 Italians ;
        - almost 1,5 million French 

Here is a link to some detail about the 8 of may celebration (in French). 
http://crdp.ac-reims.fr/memoire/enseigner/reims7mai/10vicissitudes.Htm
On the 7th of May 1945 The German capitulated, and 8th of May celebrates the Victory of the allies on the Nazy Germany. 

First common celebration with German and Russia was held on 8th of May 1995 In Paris and Berlin, and on 9th in Moscow


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## valerie

and here some data to compare with WW2
http://crdp.ac-reims.fr/memoire/bac/2gm/etudes/05morts.htm


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## ishatar

Mmh... Sorry my source included the woundeds (4,266,000) and the losts and the prisonners (537,000). I misunderstood what _lost_ means in the sentence "France lost 6,160,800 men".
Anyway, that was a staggering _loss_.


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## Mal

Wonderful replies about this topic. I learned a lot. Interesting about the German PM being invited this year (it took so long). One would think that a lot should have been learned by now about the war, yet there have been all these other wars going on for all kinds of reasons... I was born in a country that until recently, was at war for over 20 years. I left when I was very young but I still remember the sounds of it (the war).  

In Canada we do the same things with the poppies and all. I wonder how that custom started? I love poppies but we don't have much of them here. I saw small fields of them in England this summer. 
Well, got to go deal w/ our first major snow fall!


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## zebedee

Mal said:
			
		

> Wonderful replies about this topic. I learned a lot. Interesting about the German PM being invited this year (it took so long). One would think that a lot should have been learned by now about the war, yet there have been all these other wars going on for all kinds of reasons... I was born in a country that until recently, was at war for over 20 years. I left when I was very young but I still remember the sounds of it (the war).
> 
> In Canada we do the same things with the poppies and all. I wonder how that custom started? I love poppies but we don't have much of them here. I saw small fields of them in England this summer.
> Well, got to go deal w/ our first major snow fall!



I believe it started from the poem "In Flanders Fields" written by McGrae, a Canadian who died during WWI in Belgium. They say the fields of Flanders suddenly sprouted thousands of blood-red poppies in the Spring of 1919 after the blood shed over them the years before.
Have a look at this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Flanders_Fields

In Britain there are veterans' parades and a 1-minute silence all over the country at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month of every year to commemorate the Fallen, which ends with 'The Last Call' played on the bugle. We also do 'the poppy thing'.

Another WWI poet I enjoyed reading is Wilfred Owen, specially 2 of his poems: _Dulce et Decorum Est _ and _Anthem for Doomed Youth_
This link has all his poems: http://www.hcu.ox.ac.uk/jtap/warpoems.htm

Zeb


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## Mal

Yes Zeb
You are right, I had forgotten the story. I find that when one is speaking and reading a few languages at the same time, one's brain turns to mush. I can't remember people's names for example... Also I stayed up the previous night finishing a translation.
Have a good day heh! (Canadian greeting)


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## Mal

Also thanks for the link. Wilfrid Owen was wonderful in the sense that his poetry was timeless. The poems you mentioned are very current in meaning and expression. "Flanders Fields" which Canadian children have to learn by heart for the Nov.11 day is a bit "boring". Shhh, don't tell anybody I said this, I heard it so often.


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## dave

zebedee said:
			
		

> Another WWI poet I enjoyed reading is Wilfred Owen, specially 2 of his poems: _Dulce et Decorum Est _ and _Anthem for Doomed Youth_
> This link has all his poems: http://www.hcu.ox.ac.uk/jtap/warpoems.htm
> 
> Zeb



Thanks for that Zeb. I hadn't read _Dulce et Decorum est_ since my school days, and had forgotten what a wonderful poem it is (even better than the Skids' song of the same name!).


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## libertylover

That is really cool. In the US veterans usually sell poppies but it not really know of as a holiday. That was the reason I was asking. More traditions and such are much appreciated!!!!
LL


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## valerie

The origin of the poppies remembered me of a song by Barbara, I attach the text here:

Tout le sang qu'ont versé
Les hommes dans la plaine
Et tous les trépassés
Des causes incertaines
Ont fait qu'à ce verger
Il pousse par centaines
La rose et le pommier,
Aussi, la marjolaine.

Tous ceux qui ont crié
Que leur mort était vaine,
Tous ceux qui ont pleuré,
Le front dans la verveine,
Tous ceux qui ont soufflé,
Là, leur dernière haleine
Ont fait de ce verger
Sur la rive lorraine
Un creux tendre où s'aimer
Quand les saisons reviennent.

Tous ces désarçonnés
Qui n'eurent le temps même
De dire, émerveillés :
"Ce sont tes yeux que j'aime.",
Toutes ces fiancées
Dont l'attente fut vaine,
Ces hommes arrachés
A leur noce prochaine,
Sourient à regarder
Ceux que l'amour amène
Sur l'herbe du verger
Quand leurs bouches se prennent.

Tous ceux qui ont laissé
Leurs amours quotidiennes,
Les membres fracassés
Et le sang hors des veines,
Tous ceux qu'on a pleurés
Lors des guerres anciennes,
Ceux qu'on a oubliés,
Les sans noms, les bohème,
Se lèvent pour chanter
Quand les amants s'en viennent,
Insouciants, échanger
La caresse sereine
Qui leur fut refusée
Au nom d'une rengaine.

Tout le sang qu'ont versé
Les hommes dans la plaine
Et tous les trépassés
Des causes incertaines
Ont fait qu'à ce verger
Il pousse par centaines
La rose et le pommier
Aussi, la marjolaine
Ont fait de ce verger
Sur la rive lorraine
Un creux tendre ou s'aimer
Quand les saisons reviennent...


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## Mal

Belle chanson, Val, merci.


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## libertylover

sorry. My request will probably be alot of work,   but concidering i don't speak french   could you translate it in to english if you could?
Merci beaucoup!


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## valerie

My try:

Tout le sang qu'ont versé
Les hommes dans la plaine
Et tous les trépassés
Des causes incertaines
Ont fait qu'à ce verger
Il pousse par centaines
La rose et le pommier,
Aussi, la marjolaine.

All the blood that was poured 
by the men in the plain
And all the persons dead
for uncertain causes
have allowed that in this grove
grow hundreds of
roses and apple trees
and also sweet marjoram

_Please correct my english, thank you_


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## valerie

Tous ceux qui ont crié
Que leur mort était vaine,
Tous ceux qui ont pleuré,
Le front dans la verveine,
Tous ceux qui ont soufflé,
Là, leur dernière haleine
Ont fait de ce verger
Sur la rive lorraine
Un creux tendre où s'aimer
Quand les saisons reviennent.

All those who have shouted 
that their death was vain
All those who cried
with their face in the verbena
All those who blew
there their last breath
have made from this grove
on the lorraine shore
a soft hollow where to love
when the season come back


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## valerie

Tous ces désarçonnés
Qui n'eurent le temps même
De dire, émerveillés :
"Ce sont tes yeux que j'aime.",
Toutes ces fiancées
Dont l'attente fut vaine,
Ces hommes arrachés
A leur noce prochaine,
Sourient à regarder
Ceux que l'amour amène
Sur l'herbe du verger
Quand leurs bouches se prennent.

All these baffled men
who did not even have time enough
to say, marveled,
"Yours are the eyes I love",
All these brides
which waited in vain,
These men teared
from their imminent wedding,
smile when they see
those led by love
on the grove grass
when their lips kiss each others




Tous ceux qui ont laissé
Leurs amours quotidiennes,
Les membres fracassés
Et le sang hors des veines,
Tous ceux qu'on a pleurés
Lors des guerres anciennes,
Ceux qu'on a oubliés,
Les sans noms, les bohème,
Se lèvent pour chanter
Quand les amants s'en viennent,
Insouciants, échanger
La caresse sereine
Qui leur fut refusée
Au nom d'une rengaine.

All those who have left
their daily love
with their limbs smashed
and their blood outside of their veins,
All those who were mourned for
in ancient wars,
Those who were forgotten
those without names, bohemians,
stand up to sing
when lovers come,
carefree, to exchange
the serene caresse
which was refused to them
in the name of an old song


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## libertylover

is there one more verse?


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## Merlino

In The Netherlanders we commemorate the dead of WWII on may 4th and celebrate our liberation on may 5th... We weren't involved in WWI so we don't have days for that war... We also don't celebrate on november 11th (well, some Dutch do but that's a completely different story having nothing to do with wars or anything )


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