# إن كنتم صارمين



## maddu

Hi,

Lane translates إن كنتم صارمين (al-Qalam: 22) as _If ye be deciding_, or_ determining_, _upon the cutting off of the fruit of the palm-trees_. He also states that صرم النخل means _He cut off the fruit of the palm-trees_, so I guess the مفعول به has been omitted (محذوف) in this verse of the Qur'an. Am I correct? By the way, where did he get the meaning "deciding/determining" from? It's not mentioned anywhere in the verse.

إِنَّا بَلَوْنَاهُمْ كَمَا بَلَوْنَا أَصْحَابَ الْجَنَّةِ إِذْ أَقْسَمُوا لَيَصْرِمُنَّهَا مُصْبِحِينَ (17) وَلَا يَسْتَثْنُونَ (18) فَطَافَ عَلَيْهَا طَائِفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكَ وَهُمْ نَائِمُونَ (19) فَأَصْبَحَتْ كَالصَّرِيمِ (20) فَتَنَادَوْا مُصْبِحِينَ (21) أَنِ اغْدُوا عَلَىٰ حَرْثِكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَارِمِينَ (22)

شكرا جزيلا


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## Sun-Shine

maddu said:


> Lane translates إن كنتم صارمين  _He cut off the fruit of the palm-trees_, so I guess the مفعول به has been omitted (محذوف) in this verse of the Qur'an.


What do you mean by مفعول به محذوف ? 
Where is the verb?


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## maddu

صارمين might not be a verb, but it behaves like one because it is a شبه فعل. Therefore, it can have a maf'ool bihi, maf'ool fihi, maf'ool mutlaq, etc. You see, اسم فاعل and اسم مفعول and صفة مشبهة and اسم تفضيل and perhaps one or two others are all شبه فعل.


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## Sun-Shine

It's really complicated but as I know ان كنتم صارمين *فاغدوا*
*فاغدوا* deleted جواب الشرط


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## Matat

Yes, you may consider the مفعول به of صارمين to be omitted.


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## Sun-Shine

Isn't صرم = عزم verb لازم


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## Matat

sun_shine 331995 said:


> Isn't صرم = عزم verb لازم


(صارم) اسم فاعل (صَرَمَ) وهو فعل متعد بمعنى (قَطَعَ).


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## Sun-Shine

Matat said:


> [صارم] اسم فاعل [صَرَمَ] وهو فعل متعد بمعنى [قَطَعَ]



صارمون هنا ليست بمعني القطع ولكن بمعني عازمون


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## Matat

sun_shine 331995 said:


> صارمون هنا ليست بمعني القطع ولكن بمعني عازمون


Ah. صارم is اسم الفاعل of two different verbs, صَرَمَ (transitive) and صَرُمَ (intransitive). It is صَرُمَ which means "persistent" while صَرَمَ means "to cut". I was assuming صارم here was in the meaning of صَرَمَ "to cut" because the OP mentioned the translation:


maddu said:


> _If ye be deciding_, or_ determining_, _upon the *cutting off* of the fruit of the palm-trees_. He also states that صرم النخل means _He *cut off* the fruit of the palm-trees_,


However, looking at it carefully, it makes more sense for it to be in the meaning of صَرُمَ, as you, @sun_shine 331995, have just mentioned.


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## maddu

But إِنَّا بَلَوْنَاهُمْ كَمَا بَلَوْنَا أَصْحَابَ الْجَنَّةِ إِذْ أَقْسَمُوا لَيَصْرِمُنَّهَا مُصْبِحِينَ clearly indicates what it means! It even has a مفعول به!


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## Abbe

maddu said:


> Hi,
> 
> Lane translates إن كنتم صارمين (al-Qalam: 22) as _If ye be deciding_, or_ determining_, _upon the cutting off of the fruit of the palm-trees_. He also states that صرم النخل means _He cut off the fruit of the palm-trees_, so I guess the مفعول به has been omitted (محذوف) in this verse of the Qur'an. Am I correct? By the way, where did he get the meaning "deciding/determining" from? It's not mentioned anywhere in the verse.



I think that he wrote "deciding/determining" because it is implied in إن كنتم. Go early to your crop if you are [determined] to gather its fruit


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## maddu

Thank you! But isn't it a bit strange that the root letters صرم are used twice in quick succession but with different meanings? I would have expected them to mean the same thing each time.


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## Abbe

I think it's used with the same meaning both times. The object has been omitted the second time. Some of the translators use brackets to show that the object has been omitted.

DR. GHALI
(Saying), "Go forth early upon your tillage, in case you would wrest away (the fruit)!"

MUHSIN KHAN
Saying: "Go to your tilth in the morning, if you would pluck the fruits."

PICKTHALL
Saying: Run unto your field if ye would pluck (the fruit).

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
[Saying], "Go early to your crop if you would cut the fruit."

YUSUF ALI
"Go ye to your tilth (betimes) in the morning, if ye would gather the fruits."

MUFTI TAQI USMANI
saying, “Set out early, if you are going to pluck (the fruits).”

ABUL ALA MAUDUDI(WITH TAFSIR)
(68:22) “Hurry to your orchard4 if you would gather its fruit.”

ABDUL HALEEM
‘Go early to your field if you wish to gather all its fruits,’

DR. MUSTAFA KHATTAB, THE CLEAR QURAN
˹saying,˺ “Go early to your harvest, if you want to pick ˹all˺ the fruit.”

DR. MUSTAFA KHATTAB
˹saying,˺ “Go early to your harvest, if you want to pick ˹all˺ the fruit.”


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## cherine

I also believe it's the same verb (to cut) and the object of the second instance صارمين was ellided to avoid unnecessary repetition as the meaning is already clear and doesn't needed further confirmation/mentioning.


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## Matat

maddu said:


> But إِنَّا بَلَوْنَاهُمْ كَمَا بَلَوْنَا أَصْحَابَ الْجَنَّةِ إِذْ أَقْسَمُوا لَيَصْرِمُنَّهَا مُصْبِحِينَ clearly indicates what it means! It even has a مفعول به!


Good point. Then yes, we'd have to assume that صارمين has an omitted مفعول به understood as إياها.


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## maddu

Thanks, but then where did Lane get the meaning "deciding/determining" from?


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## cherine

maddu said:


> Thanks, but then where did Lane get the meaning "deciding/determining" from?


It's because the word has two readings with two meaning. Check Matat's post #9 again:


Matat said:


> صارم is اسم الفاعل of two different verbs, صَرَمَ (transitive) and صَرُمَ (intransitive). It is صَرُمَ which means "persistent" while صَرَمَ means "to cut".


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## Abbe

No I don't think thats why. The intention is implicit in the words إن كنتم. It is as if he is saying: If you want to/if you intent to/if you are determined etc. Two of the translators translated this implicit meaning in the following way:

ABDUL HALEEM
‘Go early to your field if you *wish *to gather all its fruits,’


DR. MUSTAFA KHATTAB
˹saying,˺ “Go early to your harvest, if you *want *to pick ˹all˺ the fruit.”

Lane understood the implicit meaning as "decided or determined"


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## maddu

cherine said:


> It's because the word has two readings with two meaning. Check Matat's post #9 again:



What do you mean "it has two readings"?

All I'm saying is that Lane's translation, i.e. "If ye be deciding, or determining, upon the cutting off of the fruit of the palm-trees." contains both "deciding" and "cutting off the fruit of the palm-trees", and that doesn't make sense to me. The reason is simple: if a word has multiple meanings you can choose whichever meaning you like, but you can't pick more than one meaning simultaneously. Lane has taken both meanings of the root صرم simultaneously.


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## cherine

I meant صَرَم and صَرُم two reading (I mean 2 different vowelizations) each has a different meaning: to cut and to be persistent or determined.
I didn't check Lane so I can't comment on what he wrote, but many words have more than one meaning, and this is why we rely on context to understand which is the intended meaning.


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