# Etymology of "debt"



## Testing1234567

I would like to know the phonological changes that made Latin "DEBITA" /deːbita/ > Old French "dete" /dɛtə/. Thank you everyone in advance.


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## CapnPrep

Something like:
dēbĭta > deɸta > dɛɸtə > dɛt(ə)​Do any of those steps seem problematic to you? Is there a particular reason you asked about this word?


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## CitizenEmpty

This would be a very relevant YouTube clip.


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## Testing1234567

CitizenEmpty said:


> This would be a very relevant YouTube clip.



The video mentioned that when DUBITARE moved into French, it lost the "b" sound.


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## Testing1234567

CapnPrep said:


> Something like:
> dēbĭta > deɸta > dɛɸtə > dɛt(ə)​Do any of those steps seem problematic to you? Is there a particular reason you asked about this word?



Is there any evidence of deɸta or deɸtə? I understand that virtually nothing is written in Vulgar Latin, but why wouldn't it be a voiced "β"?


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## CapnPrep

Testing1234567 said:


> Is there any evidence of deɸta or deɸtə? I understand that virtually nothing is written in Vulgar Latin, but why wouldn't it be a voiced "β"?


It could have been, at first, but it would have quickly devoiced by assimilation with _t_, or in any case the final step before deletion is commonly assumed to be a voiceless fricative (maybe even _h_, i.e. debuccalization). Of course none of these steps are directly attested…

The crucial thing with this word is that the loss of the post-tonic vowel must have preceded (and thus prevented) intervocalic voicing of _t_ (cf. _cubĭtum_ > _cou*d*e_, where the sequence was reversed). We also see variation in the evolution of _debita_ elsewhere in Romance (e.g. Spanish _deu*d*a_).


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## Testing1234567

CapnPrep said:


> We also see variation in the evolution of _debita_ elsewhere in Romance (e.g. Spanish _deu*d*a_).



I would say that the Spanish "d" is unrelated, as seen in -tum > -do (past participle ending).

I would propose debita > deʋta > deuta > deuda


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## CapnPrep

Testing1234567 said:


> I would say that the Spanish "d" is unrelated, as seen in -tum > -do (past participle ending).


But _t_ > _d_ in the past participles is also the result of intervocalic voicing (it does not happen in _visto_, _escrito_, _muerto_ for example).

For _deuda_ I would say:
debĭta > déβida > deβða > dewða​


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## Testing1234567

I see. Sorry I misunderstood it.

So, in French:
DÉBITA > dɛβita > dɛβta > dɛɸta > dɛɸtə > dɛɸtə

And in Spanish:
DÉBITA > dɛβita > dɛβida > dɛβda > dɛwda > dɛuda > dɛuða

Is this correct?


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## CapnPrep

I edited my message above, I don't think there was a stage "eu" in Spanish. Also be careful with the vowels, _dēbĭta_ has a long _ē_ (and there should be no ɛ in Spanish, after diphthongization).


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## Testing1234567

Right.

So, in French:
DÉBITA > deβita > dɛβta > dɛɸta > dɛɸtə > dɛɸtə

And in Spanish:
DÉBITA > deβita > deβida > deβda > dewda > dewða

Is this correct?


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## CapnPrep

Almost… you need to fix the end of the French derivation, and _d_ > _ð_ is much earlier in Spanish. Maybe someone else will have comments about some either details or the exact relative chronology of some changes, but this looks about right to me.


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## Testing1234567

I see, thank you.


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## Cenzontle

The Old Spanish spelling "debda" far outnumbers "deuda" in the 14th century; still outnumbers it in the 15th; virtually disappears in the 16th century.
(Corpus del Español.)


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## virgulino

In some Romance languages a direct Latin borrowing coexists with the natural evolution; v.g. Fr. "_dette/débit_", Sp. "_deuda/debito_", Pt. "_dívida/débito_". 
Can't we simply say that En. "debt" is a direct borrowing from Latin? The spelling of "doubt" was influenced by Middle French "_doubte_". Is there a historical written sample of O. Fr. "_dete_" written with a "b" in (Middle/Modern) French?


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## Penyafort

Remember that the b in English debt is silent. I'm assuming a borrowing from French _dette_, with later Latinization of the spelling.

It's interesting to see that most Romance language derive it from a feminine form, while in Catalan (*deute*) we derive it from DEBITU.


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## virgulino

Penyafort said:


> Remember that the b in English debt is silent. I'm assuming a borrowing from French _dette_, with later Latinization of the spelling.



Yes, the "b" is silent, just like doubt, which was written in Middle English as "doute", A direct borrowing from Old French "doute", which evolved to Middle French "doubte" and Modern English doubt. We can see a confluence here. We cannot make the same path with debt.

EDIT: My mistake, there was a word "debte" in Middle French and "dette" in Middle English.


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## wtrmute

Penyafort said:


> Remember that the b in English debt is silent. I'm assuming a borrowing from French _dette_, with later Latinization of the spelling.
> 
> It's interesting to see that most Romance language derive it from a feminine form, while in Catalan (*deute*) we derive it from DEBITU.



In general, they derive it from the neuter plural.  Remember the _Pater noster_:



> ... et dimitte nobis debita nostra...



Catalan derives it from the neuter singular.


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## CapnPrep

virgulino said:


> In some Romance languages a direct Latin borrowing coexists with the natural evolution; v.g. Fr. "_dette/débit_", Sp. "_deuda/debito_", Pt. "_dívida/débito_".
> Can't we simply say that En. "debt" is a direct borrowing from Latin?


Well, English also has _debit_. And direct borrowings from Latin do not typically show intertonic syncope (loss of the _i_ in this case).





virgulino said:


> Is there a historical written sample of O. Fr. "_dete_" written with a "b" in (Middle/Modern) French?


I take it you found some examples?


Penyafort said:


> It's interesting to see that most Romance language derive it from a feminine form, while in Catalan (*deute*) we derive it from DEBITU.


Old French also had masculine _det. Debita _is probably best understood as the plural of neuter _debitum_, reanalyzed as a feminine singular in Romance (as wtrmute just posted).


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## yezik

Two different roots..
1. Debt = de-bit = count does not "beat'. My mother was an accountant, and when something was wrong she said:
'не бьёт", = de-bit,   не сходится... Debt - dette. French lost 'b'
2. douter - douteuse, doubt... You are always are doubt when some question is "". ДУТый - - inflated.
Literaly speaking - phoney = false . English added 'b', but.... does not spell it!


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## mataripis

In my interpretation debt is combination of two words . De is from/of and bt is between related to two according to its old English form Betweonum.debt is from or of between. It is life status of freemen and slaves. Freemen are not like slaves who have debt to pay by serving/(through payment) their lord.


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