# All Slavic languages: Gender of loanwords



## Encolpius

Ancient Greek words like drama, aroma, dogma, trauma are *neutrals *in Czech and *feminines *in Slovak and the declension is different too

Czech: *drama *- plural: *dramata*
Slovak: *dráma *- plural: *drámy*

How about other Slavic languages? Thanks.


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## Orlin

These nouns are feminine in Bulgarian (e. g. драма) like the large majority of nouns ending in а. We don't decline nouns.


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## Duya

They're feminine in BCS.

Actually, there's a general tendency in BCS to assign only masculine or feminine gender to loanwords, thus neuter is reserved for "native" words. I can't offhand recall any recent loan which is neuter.

Some loanwords would have more natural declension had they been assigned neuter (_kafe, biro, _gen_. kafea__, biroa _are masc, and have that unfortunate -ea- and -oa- contrary to the phonotactics; _biciklo _would avoid that naughty syllabic L in standard _bicikl_). But I'd better stop drifting off-topic in my speculations.


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## Arath

In Bulgarian the word for problem ("проблем" from "πρόβλημα") is a masculine noun, although there also exists the feminine form "проблема" ("проблемата") which is very rarely used.


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## TriglavNationalPark

They're also feminine in Slovenian.

sing. *drama*, dual *drami*, plural *drame*


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## trance0

Duya said:


> They're feminine in BCS.
> Actually, there's a general tendency in BCS to assign only masculine or feminine gender to loanwords, thus neuter is reserved for "native" words. I can't offhand recall any recent loan which is neuter.



They are feminine in Slovene too. And I think the same tendency exists in Slovene as well, most newer loanwords are either masculine or feminine. The only 'modern' exception I can recall at this moment is 'skripta' which is in fact neuter, but in colloquial language it is treated and declined as feminine nouns.


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## Encolpius

Hmm..it makes me think Czech is the only Slavic languages with drama - dramata type and maybe there is German influence: das Drama - die Dramen


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## trance0

I fail to see any German influence in this case: Dramen / Dramata.


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## jazyk

Dramat, aromat, and dogmat are masculine in Polish and trauma is feminine.


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## Encolpius

trance0 said:


> I fail to see any German influence in this case: Dramen / Dramata.



Since Czechs and Germans always lived close together I think the influence is legitimate. I am not sure and cannot check it now, but in old Czech it could be ta drama. I'll check it later.


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## phosphore

trance0 said:


> They are feminine in Slovene too. And I think the same tendency exists in Slovene as well, most newer loanwords are either masculine or feminine. The only 'modern' exception I can recall at this moment is 'skripta' which is in fact neuter, but in colloquial language it is treated and declined as feminine nouns.


 
Same with Serbian: skripta "should" be neuter pluralia tantum, but it is actually used as a normal feminine noun.


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## sokol

Encolpius said:


> Hmm..it makes me think Czech is the only Slavic languages with drama - dramata type and maybe there is German influence: das Drama - die Dramen


I agree with trance0, I don't quite see how there should be German influence here. (I might be wrong, it's just my impression. )

The plural of type "dramata" reminds me of Slovenian plural forms like "otče, otčeta" or declensions of names which have "indeclinable" endings like "Tine" genitive "Tineta" (I think that is one of them formed like that; Slovene natives, please correct if I am wrong ;-).
So this lengthening by -t- might even be genuine Slavic for all I know.


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## trance0

I have thought about this Tine, Tineta declension type - lengthening by adding the infix -t in the case of drama / dramata. I agree it is more likely a Slavic 'innovation' than a foreign influence and especially not a German one. If it is foreign influence, then I would guess it`s Greek(schema -> schemata).


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## doorman

phosphore said:


> Same with Serbian: skripta "should" be neuter pluralia tantum, but it is actually used as a normal feminine noun.



Could you elaborate on that one? To me _skripta_ doesn't sound like a pluralia tantum - I see it as one object. Maybe I should look at it as a collection (of papers,signs,etc)?


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## trance0

In Slovene skripta is a very interesting noun, it appears to be both feminine(now finally excepted, when I was in primary school a teacher only mentioned this might happen in the future) and neuter. The feminine version has all numbers:

*skripta*



samostalnik
občno ime
*ženski spol*




*ednina*


*dvojina*


*množina*
*imenovalnik*



skripta


skripti


skripte
*rodilnik*



skripte


skript


skript
*dajalnik*



skripti


skriptama


skriptam
*tožilnik*



skripto


skripti


skripte
*mestnik*



skripti


skriptah


skriptah
*orodnik*



skripto


skriptama


skriptami


Whereas the neuter version appears to be pluraliatantum(according to Amebis at least):



samostalnik
občno ime
*srednji spol*




*množina*
*imenovalnik*



skripta
*rodilnik*



skript
*dajalnik*



skriptom
*tožilnik*



skripta
*mestnik*



skriptih
*orodnik*



skripti


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## doorman

trance0 said:


> I have thought about this Tine, Tineta declension type - lengthening by adding the infix -t in the case of drama / dramata. I agree it is more likely a Slavic 'innovation' than a foreign influence and especially not a German one. If it is foreign influence, then I would guess it`s Greek(schema -> schemata).



The _t_ is added because it is impossible to keep the accent on the same syllable when adding just 'the normal' suffix.

I'm not sure this is a Slavic (nor any other language's) innovation, I think it's a physical constraint - humans are just not able to do it  For example, French dictates exactly the same behaviour.


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## doorman

trance0 said:


> The feminine version has all numbers:
> ...
> Whereas the neuter version appears to be pluraliatantum(according to Amebis at least):
> ...


Does the shift in gender imply also a shift in meaning?


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## bibax

> If it is foreign influence, then I would guess it`s Greek(schema -> schemata).


It is obviously influence of the classical philologists.

Greek: to drama - ta dramata
Czech: to drama - ta dramata

(Latin: drama, dramatis, n. - pl. dramata, 3rd declension)

It is also very natural in Czech as the plural ending -ta is common for the Czech t-stem neuters:

to kuře (gen. kuřete) - ta kuřata (chicken)
to kotě (gen kotěte) - ta koťata (kitten)
to prase (gen. prasete) - ta prasata (pig)
etc.


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## trance0

Now that is a good question, doorman. One I do not quite know the answer to. As I mentioned, when I was in primary school my teacher said the only correct version was the neuter one. But I do not know the difference in meaning because in colloquial Slovene only the feminine version is in use.


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## Awwal12

In Russian all nouns ending in "-а" belong to so-called first declension (foreign surnames ending in stressed "-а" are indeclineable, though). Among such loanwords only animated nouns meaning men (including names in "-а") belong to the masculine gender: "паша" (pasha), "Мустафа", "рикша" (riksha, jinriksha) etc. All other loanwords ending in "-а" are nouns of feminine gender: "драма" (f.), "догма" (f.), "травма" (f.) etc. However, "aroma" in Russian sounds as "аромат" (arom*a*t) and therefore belongs to the masculine gender. )


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## sokol

doorman said:


> The _t_ is added because it is impossible to keep the accent on the same syllable when adding just 'the normal' suffix.


I cannot answer this question either - I just don't know where this added -t- comes from -, however accent only would be an argument (possibly) for BCS, but not for Slovene.

In Slovene the problem rather is only the ending (a problem applying to BCS too, of course) - /-e/ only could be a plural ending; as I see it, to insert -t- is just a strategy to enable declension for those names. Of course I could be wrong  - I tried to find something about this topic but couldn't.


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## trance0

I have looked it up in SSKJ and here the only correct version still appears to be the neuter one: 

skripta skript s mn., daj. skriptom in skriptam, 
mest. skriptih in skriptah, or. skripti in skriptami (i) 
knjiga ali listi z razmnoženimi, navadno 
natipkanimi predavanji za študijske namene: 
izdati skripta v dvesto izvodih; posoditi komu 
skripta; debela skripta / napisati skripta; 
preštudirati skripta v enem tednu 
• knjiž., redko odnesel je aktovko s skripti s spisi, 
zapiski

It seems that both versions are synonyms. But one is pluraliatantum(neuter) while the other is not.


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## trance0

sokol said:


> I cannot answer this question either - I just don't know where this added -t- comes from -, however accent only would be an argument (possibly) for BCS, but not for Slovene.
> 
> In Slovene the problem rather is only the ending (a problem applying to BCS too, of course) - /-e/ only could be a plural ending; as I see it, to insert -t- is just a strategy to enable declension for those names. Of course I could be wrong  - I tried to find something about this topic but couldn't.



In Slovene there is more than one way of getting around this problem, as is the case in BCS too. One possibility is using -t as an infix in declension, but there are other infixes too, namely -s and -n for some neuter nouns ending with a vowel(although these are the remains of the Old Slavic declension classes which no longer exist in Modern Slovene).


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## phosphore

doorman said:


> Could you elaborate on that one? To me _skripta_ doesn't sound like a pluralia tantum - I see it as one object. Maybe I should look at it as a collection (of papers,signs,etc)?


 
The word pantalone represents a single object too, though it is pluralia tantum, isn't it? Same with makaze, merdevine=lestve, etc.

But yes, it is a collection of writings and, more importantly, it comes from scripta, which is the plural form of scriptum.


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## phosphore

sokol said:


> I cannot answer this question either - I just don't know where this added -t- comes from -, however accent only would be an argument (possibly) for BCS, but not for Slovene.
> 
> In Slovene the problem rather is only the ending (a problem applying to BCS too, of course) - /-e/ only could be a plural ending; as I see it, to insert -t- is just a strategy to enable declension for those names. Of course I could be wrong  - I tried to find something about this topic but couldn't.


 

I can't see why would it be a matter of accent?

This /t/, just like /s/ (nebo-nebesa), /r/ (veče-večeri) and /n/ (vreme-vremena) in some other words, is a matter of historical realignement of declensions, where it dropped in the nominative case.


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## sokol

phosphore said:


> I can't see why would it be a matter of accent?
> 
> This /t/, just like /s/ (nebo-nebesa), /r/ (veče-večeri) and /n/ (vreme-vremena) in some other words, is a matter of historical realignement of declensions, where it dropped in the nominative case.


Nor can I but I thought Doorman could  - I thought, as he mentioned this, that there's some reason for accent being involved here. But probably I misunderstood his post.


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## mugibil

bibax said:


> It is obviously influence of the classical philologists.
> 
> Greek: to drama - ta dramata
> Czech: to drama - ta dramata
> 
> (Latin: drama, dramatis, n. - pl. dramata, 3rd declension)



Precisely.


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## Angelo di fuoco

bibax said:


> It is obviously influence of the classical philologists.
> 
> Greek: to drama - ta dramata
> Czech: to drama - ta dramata
> 
> (Latin: drama, dramatis, n. - pl. dramata, 3rd declension)
> 
> It is also very natural in Czech as the plural ending -ta is common for the Czech t-stem neuters:
> 
> to kuře (gen. kuřete) - ta kuřata (chicken)
> to kotě (gen kotěte) - ta koťata (kitten)
> to prase (gen. prasete) - ta prasata (pig)
> etc.



The one has but little to do with the other.

The first is the influence of the classical philologists: in old German texts, there are not only Latin plurals, but latinisms are even declined (!) accordingly to Latin patterns (nowadays, only in fossilised expressions). Unfortunately, this influence is disappearing in German,due to the fact that even Latin is not universally taught in school nowadays (and even in big cities there are only one or two schools where Ancient Greek is taught), so there are parallel plural forms for some latinisms and grecisms: the classical ones, stemming from the original languages, and more German-like. You have Problem (n. sg.) and Probleme (pl.) and also Diadem (n. sg.) and Diademe (pl.), but most grecisms have preserved the a in the ending: Drama (plural Dramata is very rarely used, one usually says and writes Dramen), Trauma (usual plural: Traumata; Traumen is possible), Dogma (usually Dogmen; Dogmata is possible), Schema (the wiktionary gives also a third plural form "Schemas", which I think is vulgar because some Germans tend to use the "s" as universal plural ending in foreign words, possibly due to the influence of English and Northern German dialects), note also that "Schemen" (sg. and pl.) means "silhouette".

The "-ta" ending is common to most, if not to all Slavic languages: it is the plural for children of human beings or animals. In Russian it is the same, although the singular is quite different: цыплёнок, цыплята (chicken); котёнок, котята (kitten); поросёнок, поросята (little pig); ребёнок, ребята (children); девчонка, девчата (girls, rather colloquial), beside standard plural девчонки.

My thesis is that the "classical philologists" mostly were German and the fact that some grecisms or latinisms in Czech and Polish were assigned the neuter gender instead of feminine (e. g. drama in Czech) or masculine (e. g. centrum in both languages), which would have been logic in Slavic languages, is due also to the cultural and political hegemony of Germany. Please note that Slovakia historically was primarily under the cultural hegemony of Hungary and not of the Holy Roman Empire, Teutonic Order or Prussia, like Czechia and Poland. I think it is no coincidence that the only two Slavic languages which have preserved the original gender of grecisms and latinisms and have not reassigned it accordingly to the rules of their own grammar are those which have the biggest number of German loanwords, i. e. Czech and Polish.


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## werrr

Angelo di fuoco said:


> My thesis is that the "classical philologists" mostly were German…


We know the philologists by their names. It’s mainly work of Josef Dobrovský and Josef Jungman (both Czechs).



> …and the fact that some grecisms or latinisms in Czech and Polish were assigned the neuter gender instead of feminine (e. g. drama in Czech) or masculine (e. g. centrum in both languages), which would have been logic in Slavic languages


What logic? I don’t see any. This is simply an arbitrary decision by the authors of codification of the standard language.

The choice by Czech philologists was to find a declension which sounds natural in Czech and respects the forms in the original language as much as possible. This applies not only for classical languages, but also for other Slavic languages, French, Italian and some other languages (German is not among them).

The basic moral is to use the original word stem in all cases, to use the original ending in singular direct cases (nominative, accusative, event. vocative) and to use suitable Czech endings for plural and oblique cases. The particular Czech model is chosen to suit the original gender, original singular genitive and original plural nominative as much as possible. The adoption of Latin models into Czech happens to be rather uncomplicated process due to big similarity between Czech and Latin declension. 



> …is due also to the cultural and political hegemony of Germany.


No, knowledge of classical languages was common to all scholars in Western world. Even English pays respect to the original Latin and Greek forms (formerly in most of educated texts, now practically only in scientific texts).



> Please note that Slovakia historically was primarily under the cultural hegemony of Hungary and not of the Holy Roman Empire, Teutonic Order or Prussia, like Czechia and Poland.


Wrong. Slovakia, despite under Hungarian rule, was under strong cultural influence of the Czech countries (and of Poland and Germany/Austria to less extent.) For centuries, Czech (or perhaps Latin) was lingua franca of educated Slovaks, Czech was their language of bible.



> I think it is no coincidence that the only two Slavic languages which have preserved the original gender of grecisms and latinisms and have not reassigned it accordingly to the rules of their own grammar are those which have the biggest number of German loanwords, i. e. Czech and Polish.


But the Czech declension of these words suits the nature of Czech. And I dare to dipute your claim that Czech has the biggest number of German loans among Slavic languages.

Better explanation is that only Czech and Polish have long tradition of Western literacy.


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## vianie

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Please note that Slovakia historically was primarily under the cultural hegemony of Hungary and not of the Holy Roman Empire, Teutonic Order or Prussia, like Czechia and Poland.



That's not quite valid in Roman Empire case. Here is disproval, regrettably I didn't find an English version.

That about Hungarian hegemony is right, but that obviously doesn't mean adopting of any Hungarian language rules. Slovak, and better said Slovak dialects, however they were handicaped and penalized in Middle Ages, have walked its own way everytimes, unencumbered by non-slavic Neighbours. Adopting foreign words is quite other story, because that isn't so influencing to language inbeing as penetration and infiltration of foreign elements to grammar are.


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## Arath

*Moderator note: Split from here.*

Maybe we'll need to start a new thread. But here's the situation in Bulgarian. Gender is pretty much determined by the final letter - nouns ending in a consonant are masculine, those ending in *A* are feminine, and those ending in *O*, *U*, *E*, *I* - neuter. There are some exceptions, though - the abbreviation *РАМ* - RAM (Random-access memory) is feminine (*РАМ-та*), most probably because it is shorter for *РАМ памет* (lit. RAM memory), and *памет* is feminine


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## Scholiast

Greetings, Arath and everyone else.



> Maybe we'll need to start a new thread.



Since my previous contributions, I have come to realise that the original question, and Frank78's and my first response (#4) to it, probably belong better in the "Deutsch" Forum.

But this led on to my "footnote" question in #5, which puts the issue into a more general context. We need a Moderator's assistance here.

As regards Bulgarian,



> Gender is pretty much determined by the final letter - nouns ending in a consonant are masculine, those ending in *A* are feminine, and those ending in *O*, *U*, *E*, *I* - neuter.



Tendentially, it is true in many languages that the final vowel/syllable/letter often *indicates* the gender (fratell*-o*, sorell*-a*). But it surely does not *determine* the gender. Rather (in terms of linguistics) it is the other way round. 
In any case, the question here is specifically about how loan-words are gendered. Are you then saying that when foreign words are assimilated by Bulgarian, they are gendered simply according to the final letter/syllable?


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## Arath

Scholiast said:


> Are you then saying that when foreign words are assimilated by Bulgarian, they are gendered simply according to the final letter/syllable?


Yes.

Masculine: компютър (kompyutar), лаптоп (laptop), ноутбук (noutbuk), DJ (pronounced di-jey), GSM (pronounced ji-es-em)
Neuter: CD (pronounced si-di), DVD (pronounced di-vi-di).

I can't think of any feminine nouns right now, because the new words that have been entering the language for the past couple of decades have been mostly from English, and science words rarely end in A in English.


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## Scholiast

Interesting, Arath (#8).

What then happens for example with medical terms such as "glycoma", "haematoma", which of course are originally Greek, but (in Greek) neuter? And "dialysis" is feminine.

(And historically there must have been quite some interaction, linguistically, between Greek and south-Slavonic).

I do not for a minute suggest that you are wrong, just curious.


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## Arath

Greek nouns ending in -ma are mostly feminine - глаукома (glaucoma), система (sistema), програма (programa), тема (tema). Some are masculine: проблем (problem), хематом (hematom).
Greek nouns ending in -is, end in A in Bulgarian and are feminine - диализа (dializa), криза (kriza), електролиза (elektroliza).


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## Scholiast

This is fascinating (Arath #10), though it has taken us a long way from the original question, which was about how German handles these things.

My next question (incidentally, although I know no Bulgarian and only tiny bits of Russian, I can read cyrillic script): the originally Greek words глаукома, система, програма, тема, проблем, хематом all conform in Greek to a single and specific pattern of stem- and morpheme structure, and there are countless others. Why in Bulgarian do some finish up with masculine, others with neuter, formations and genders?

And incidentally, are there for example German loan-words in Bulgarian - as there are in English - such as _Leitmotiv_, _Schadenfreude_ or _Zeitgeist_? And if so, how are these treated from the point of view of gender?


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## Arath

Scholiast said:


> My next question (incidentally, although I know no Bulgarian and only tiny bits of Russian, I can read cyrillic script): the originally Greek words глаукома, система, програма, тема, проблем, хематом all conform in Greek to a single and specific pattern of stem- and morpheme structure, and there are countless others. Why in Bulgarian do some finish up with masculine, others with neuter, formations and genders?



I don't know for sure, but I'll have a guess.

Maybe some words entered through different languages. Perhaps *проблем* (problem) and *хематом* (hematom) entered through French - *problème, **hématome*, where they end in a consonant and don't have a final *A* (at least that's how they are pronounced, if we ignore orthography), the others entered directly from Greek.



Scholiast said:


> And incidentally, are there for example German loan-words in Bulgarian - as there are in English - such as _Leitmotiv_, _Schadenfreude_ or _Zeitgeist_? And if so, how are these treated from the point of view of gender?



Leitmotiv - лайтмотив (laytmotiv) masculine
Anzug - анцуг (antsug) - masculine
Scheibe - шайба (shayba) - feminine


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## Christo Tamarin

Arath said:


> I don't know for sure, but I'll have a guess.
> 
> 
> Scholiast said:
> 
> 
> 
> And incidentally, are there for example German loan-words in Bulgarian - as there are in English - such as _Leitmotiv_, _Schadenfreude_ or _Zeitgeist_? And if so, how are these treated from the point of view of gender?
> 
> 
> 
> Leitmotiv - лайтмотив (laytmotiv) masculine
> Anzug - анцуг (antsug) - masculine
> Scheibe - шайба (shayba) - feminine
Click to expand...

I would add:
  Faßung (fem.) -> фасунга/фасунка (fem.).
  Feuerwerk (neuter) -> фойерверк (masc.).

The gender of loan-words in Bulgarian should correspond to the word ending. If there is such correspondence, then the gender is preserved.
Otherwise, either the ending of the word is changed (as in Scheibe and Faßung) in order to keep the original gender, or the gender is changed to reflect the word ending.

Example: *Днешният *(_masculin_) *Зюддойче цайтунг* (Süddeutche Zeitung) *писа, че *..

The same applies to Russian as well.


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## Christo Tamarin

Arath said:


> Scholiast said:
> 
> 
> 
> My next question (incidentally, although I know no Bulgarian and only tiny bits of Russian, I can read cyrillic script): the originally Greek words глаукома, система, програма, тема, проблем, хематом all conform in Greek to a single and specific pattern of stem- and morpheme structure, and there are countless others. Why in Bulgarian do some finish up with masculine, others with neuter, formations and genders?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe some words entered through different languages. Perhaps *проблем* (problem) and *хематом* (hematom) entered through French - *problème, **hématome*, where they end in a consonant and don't have a final *A* (at least that's how they are pronounced, if we ignore orthography), the others entered directly from Greek.
Click to expand...


You are right, Arath.

About the loan-words from Greek ending in *-ma* (Pl. -mata). Those are neuter in Greek.

In French, they change the final -a to -e muet and the gender to masculine as there is no neuter in French. If those words are then borrowed from French into Bulgarian and Russian, they are masculine and do not have the final -a.

If such words are borrowed from Greek or Latin, then they keep masculine and -ma.

About the loan-words from Greek ending in *-sis*. Those are feminine in Greek. In French, they end in -se.

In order to keep the feminine Gender in Bulgarian or Russian, they should change the ending to -за. If they preserve -sis/-зис, they change the gender to masculine. If they are borrowed through French, the ending is just -з and the gender is masculine.

Sometimes, both versions are used: проблем/проблема, синтез/синтеза.

Sometimes, both versions are used with slght difference in meaning: тезис/теза.

Sometimes, Bulgarian and Serbian differ: програма/програм.

Sometimes, Bulgarian and Russian differ: диагноза/диагноз.


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## TriglavNationalPark

MOD NOTE: I merged the new thread with an older one dealing with the same subject.


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## osemnais

Christo Tamarin said:


> Feuerwerk (neuter) -> фойерверк (masc.).



why do we also have фойерверка in addition to фойверк?


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## Scholiast

Good evening



> why do we also have фойерверка in addition to фойверк?



May I hazard a guess?

фойерверка is a direct transliteration (with a Bulgarian declension-form) from German, "Feuerwerk".

фойверк is from English "Firework".


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## osemnais

I meant фойерверка and фойерверк
they get shortened in colloquial speech to фойверка and фойверк for faster speech probably
if the word was borrowed from English it would be файъруърк


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## Scholiast

Greetings once again



> I meant фойерверка and фойерверк
> they get shortened in colloquial speech to фойверка and фойверк for faster speech probably
> if the word was borrowed from English it would be файъруърк



I stand corrected!

But I think you have almost answered your own question (in #41, "why do we also have фойерверка in addition to фойверк?"): colloquial speech often assimilates to the native grammar (and pronunciation) words imported from other tongues. So for example the Russian loan-word in English, интеллигенция is pronounced with the softened 'g' as in the native "intelli*g*ence": the original German _Feuerwerk_ is quite accurately reproduced by фойерверк, but the tendency to naturalise the word with a Bulgarian noun-declension with фойерверк_*а*_.


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## ilocas2

werrr said:


> We know the philologists by their names. It’s mainly work of Josef Dobrovský and Josef Jungman (both Czechs).



It's Josef Jungmann, not Jungman - https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Jungmann


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