# BCS: Č and Ć



## blondie21

I understand the distinct difference between the two letters. However, I am sometimes unsure of which one to use. Is knowing the difference predominantly such memory work or is there another way? Thanks for any help!


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## iezik

I suppose you mean usage in Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian language. There are some rules for particular words ("memory work") and some rules for classes of words. It's also hard for the natives as there are plenty of web pages dedicated to this topis.

In word families and word forms, these two letter are connected with other letters. Palatalization or iotation changes pairs of sounds as follows: K+J=Č, C+J=Č, T+J=Ć. Some examples: jak...jači, ljut...ljući, boca...bočica. For more examples, you can search the internet for: "tvrdo č meko ć".

Some suffixes have fixed forms: -ač, -čić, -ičar, -ić,   ...


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## ahvalj

A side question: do Serbo-Croatian speakers perceive the Polish _ć_ as the same or a close sound to their _ć_? Does the Russian _ч_, which is palatalized, sound closer to the Serbo-Croatian _ć_ or _č_?


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## vianie

A side answer: I perceive the BCS _ć_ as the closer one to the Russain _ч._


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## ahvalj

vianie said:


> A side answer: I perceive the BCS _ć_ as the closer one to the Russain _ч._


Me too, though I sometimes hear this SC sound as intermediate between the Russian ч and something like ть.


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## Милан

ahvalj said:


> A side question: do Serbo-Croatian speakers perceive the Polish _ć_ as the same or a close sound to their _ć_? Does the Russian _ч_, which is palatalized, sound closer to the Serbo-Croatian _ć_ or _č_?



I know how Russian ч sounds, but for me it's not the same as our Ć even if IPA says t͡ɕ for both of them [@ ahvalj closer to Russian Ч-yes]. Serbian Ć is softer than Russian Ч. Polish Ć sounds [to my ear] exactly the same as our Ć. People from Serbia do not need to memorize rules [didn't know we had them]. To Serbians, Č and Ć are two VERY different sounds. Croats and Bosniaks have problem both in writing and pronouncing them [č and ć], *not all* but it seems to me that the number of people not distinguishing them *is growing*. I'm exposed to Croatian and Bosnian music, tv shows...

The same goes for Đ and DŽ [voiced pair of Ć and Č].

EDIT: Č in Serbian sounds to me like Polish cz. I don't know why the IPA uses this symbol t͡ʃ , it would mean that English ch sound [in IPA also t͡ʃ ] and Serbian Č sound the same-NOT TRUE.


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## ahvalj

And in case of merging in the western areas, is the generalized sound closer to _č_ or _ć_? 

I also wonder, though of course it cannot be said based on the written records, when did the modern Serbian _č_ and _ć_ reach their current qualities? The original Slavic _č_ was palatalized and most probably similar to the Russian one, whereas the predecessor of _ć_ in the central South Slavic must have been a sound with the stronger _t'_ element and weaker sibilant one.


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## Vanja

ahvalj said:


> And in case of merging in the western areas, is the generalized sound closer to _č_ or _ć_?


Closer to Č, soft Č. 

Serbs never mix up those two letters.


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## Милан

> In more detailed phonetic studies, post-alveolars (/ʃ/, /ʒ/, /tʃ/, /dʒ/) are described as apical ([ʃ̺] [ʒ̺], [t̺ʃ̺ʷ], [d̺ʒ̺ʷ]) or retroflex ([ʂ], [ʐ], [tʂ], [dʐ]). In most spoken Croatian idioms, as well as in some Bosnian, there is a complete or partial merger between post-alveolar (/tʃ/, /dʒ/) and palatal affricates (/tɕ/, /dʑ/).



My pronunciation is based on retroflex ([ʂ], [ʐ], [tʂ], [dʐ]).


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