# no divisions of class or hierarchy through the organisation



## bodryachkom

Dear all,

please help me understand the structure of a phrase below:

…the communist ideology, which is the ideology of society, as it aspires  to the realisation of a community of free and equal men, with _no divisions of class or hierarchy through the organisation of State power_.does  "no divisions" apply to "hierarchy" as well as to "class" or to "class"  only? 

*Does "through" relate to the "realization" or to anything else?*

My try is: 
коммунистическая идеология, являющаяся идеологией общества, поскольку  она стремится к созданию не имеющего классовых различий и иерархии  сообщества свободных и равных людей через (посредством?) организацию  государственной власти


Заранее большое спасибо,
И.


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## Ben Jamin

…the communist ideology, which is the ideology of society, as it aspires to the realization of a community of free and equal men, with no divisions of class or hierarchy, through the organisation of State power.

First of all, the sentnece lacks a comma after hierarchy.

I understand the sentence in the following way:

1. The communist ideology aspires to the realization of a community of free and equal men.
2. The community of free and equal men shall have no divisions of class or hierarchy
3. The community of free and equal men shall be achieved (realized) through the organisation of State power

And here is my proposal of the modified sentence:
коммунистическая идеология, является идеологией общества, поскольку она стремится к созданию сообщества свободных и равных людей, не имеющего классовых различий ни иерархии, через организацию государственной власти

or:
коммунистическая идеология, является идеологией общества, поскольку она стремится, через организацию государственной власти, к созданию сообщества свободных и равных людей, не имеющего классовых различий ни иерархии,


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## learnerr

Ещё одна группировка: _divisions of class_ отдельно, _hierarchy through organisation of State power_ отдельно. По-моему, логично: нужно ведь сказать, что такое иерархия и откуда она берётся. Необходим больший контекст. Книгу я нашёл, но место что-то не находится.

PS: cross-posted.


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## bodryachkom

полный контекст таков:

                                                                        Fascism was mainly _the ideology of the State_, whose reality it affirmed to be fundamental and totalitarian. And, as such, it represented the antithesis of communist ideology, whichis _the ideology of society_, as it aspires to the realisation of a community of free and equal men, with no divisions of class or hierarchy through the organisation of State power


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## learnerr

В таком случае, я думаю, моя группировка правильная. Автор говорит, что коммунизм и State power, из-за которой возникает иерархия, а не равенство людей, — вещи несовместимые.


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## bodryachkom

то есть, без классовых различий и без порожденной властью иерархичности?


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## learnerr

Да, я думаю так. И, соответственно, без той части Вашего перевода, которая после "через" идёт.


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## bodryachkom

Спасибо!



learnerr said:


> Да, я думаю так. И, соответственно, без той части Вашего перевода, которая после "через" идёт.


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## Colora

I tried to translate this passage. Is it helpful?

....коммунистической идеологии, которая является идеологией общества, стремящегося к реализации (построению) общности свободных и равноправных людей, с отсутствием классовых либо иерархических (должностных и ранговых) различий, благодаря организации государственной власти.


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## learnerr

Colora said:


> I tried to translate this passage. Is it helpful?


I think it is. It helps to see that such variant of interpretation is meaningless.


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## Colora

learnerr said:


> I think it is. It helps to see that such variant of interpretation is meaningless.



Please, show me your smart idea.


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## learnerr

Nothing smart actually, see your own clarification in the brackets: "с отсутствием классовых либо иерархических (должностных и ранговых) различий, благодаря организации государственной власти". Have you ever seen a state without ranked officials?


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## Colora

Ewww! May be you're right and there is something I need to review.


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## Colora

May be правящей власти?


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## learnerr

Isn't power the very essence of State? There is no change if we just hide the word "государственный". Besides, the original clearly states that the power in question is 'State power'.


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## Colora

I know, I jumped the gun again. I tried to delete, but it doesn't do anything!


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## Ben Jamin

I insist on my interpretation:
1. The communist ideology aspires to the realization of a community of free and equal men.
2. The community of free and equal men shall have no divisions of class or hierarchy
3. The community of free and equal men shall be achieved (realized) through the organisation of State power


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## learnerr

Ben Jamin said:


> I insist on my interpretation:


Why?


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## Ben Jamin

learnerr said:


> Why?



Because I believe it is the correct one.


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## learnerr

Ben Jamin said:


> Because I believe it is the correct one.


Any argumentation? See, I provided already two arguments, it's not to mention your own argument about the comma (the most logical way to read books is to read as they are written, and if there is no comma, it means that one is not supposed to be there, that's for ease of reading). If you want to, I shall retell them, of course.


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## Ben Jamin

learnerr said:


> Any argumentation? See, I provided already two arguments, it's not to mention your own argument about the comma (the most logical way to read books is to read as they are written, and if there is no comma, it means that one is not supposed to be there, that's for ease of reading). If you want to, I shall retell them, of course.


A comma is an issue of style, not grammar in English, and many people writing in English don't use commas, even if they should, to make their texts more clear and unambiguous. 

Your interpretation seems very unnatural to me, and what you call arguments seems to me to be pure guessing. 
Why do you separate "_divisions of class" from "hierarchy"?_

My interpretation is based on knowledge and understanding of communist ideology, which I experienced personally both by being taught at school and in practical life.


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## learnerr

Ben Jamin said:


> Why do you separate "_divisions of class" from "hierarchy"? _


They are two same-level concepts that work in the same way: they both, as we can suppose, lead to inequality of people. So, when describing a society without said inequality, it is natural to list them two, separating them with the word "and".


> Your interpretation seems very unnatural to me, and what you call arguments seems to me to be pure guessing.


Again "_seems_". How are you going to discover the meaning of the text, if not by examining its logic? Certainly not in the "I-know-what-is-written-before-I-read-anything" style.


> My interpretation is based on knowledge and understanding of communist ideology, which I experienced personally both by being taught at school and in practical life.


Words-words-words. This is the fourth argument to bring: communism does presuppose _elimination of state_. The whole problem of the communists was that they somehow thought they could get to stateless society through a period of empowering the state. Illogical as it is, it does not refer to their ultimate goal.


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