# 沙发, 板凳, 地板 (internet)



## humvee

Hello everyone
I'm currently writing an essay about the topic "language and internet". Just finish reading David Crystal's book and another book on metaphor. I'm sort of interested in how people coin new words through categorization and conceptualization. A case in point, it occurs to me that Chinese and english-speaking countries have different conceptualization of forum. Metaphorically speaking, english-speaking world conceptualize internet forum as an bulletin board, simply FORUM is Bulletin Board, whereas, in Chinese, FORUM is Building. See the elaborations below:
 FORUM is Building
楼主
楼上
楼下
顶
底
盖楼
Inside the building we have furniture,hence （subset）
沙发
板凳
地板

In English, equivalently, FORUM is Buletin Board, hence
thread starter
poster above
poster below
bump=bring up my post (ok, this etymology is controversial, but it works!)
sage, a word of japanese origin

Now I was wondering if there were any equivalents for 沙发，板凳，地板 in English

If not, my theory is that the lack of one-to-one correspondence is due to the difference in conceptualization. Or in Saussure's term, the valence is different. 

I invite y'all to join my discussion, What I mentioned above are far from being complete.


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## BODYholic

> *沙发，板凳，地板*


Of the three, I have only came across  *沙发 *and *板凳*. They are figurative speech and typically found in channels like  优酷 or the likes.

Example,
沙发空缺中 ，还不快抢~
Come grab a seat~


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## humvee

BODYholic said:


> Of the three, I have only came across *沙发 *and *板凳*. They are figurative speech and typically found in channels like 优酷 or the likes.
> 
> Example,
> 沙发空缺中 ，还不快抢~
> Come grab a seat~


 
Thanks for your reply. But you miss my point. What I need to know if there were any authentic english expression for these "netspeaks". Like I previosly mentioned, the cultural difference may cause differet conceptualization of the reality, which ultimately results in different concepts.
Grab a seat is just an circumlocution of the Chinese internet slang "沙发"，by no means is it a real counterpart, if any.
My loosey-goosey conclusion is that English-speaking countries do have a concept 沙发，it is "bump", a polysemous term which originally means "bring up my post" and the other sense is, pragmatically rendered "Look, What a fast reply by me!"  But they don't have words for "板凳" and "地板".
Maybe they should coin them!
Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm considering re-posing this question in other section. Thanks you guys anyway!


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## humvee

各位网友好，我重申一下我的问题，我想知道汉语网络用语里的，沙发，板凳，地板有没有地道的英文表达法！我初步认定沙发的对应词是bump，其余两个我还在探索中。我不想草率地下结论说：这是中国特色的词汇，没有对因的英文说法。


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## BODYholic

humvee said:


> 我初步认定沙发的对应词是bump



1. I am afraid "bump (up a thread)" is "顶".

2. Before one intends to coin an equivalent English term, first we have to understand how these Chinese terms are used in real life. This is the reason why I gave a suggestion in my previous posting.

3. 沙发 is referring to "the posting" (noun). If Thread-starter (楼主) laments that "沙发空缺中", it implies that nobody is responding to his/her thread. In Chinese forums, 沙发 is quite similar to 楼. However, 沙发 is used predominantly in video channels, hence grabbing a seat  (沙发) and let's watch a clip together. On the other hand, for wordy forums, every reply is referred as a "楼".

4. Yes, I understand what you are asking. No, I am sorry my English is not good enough to help (you coin those terms). 

Hope this helps.


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## char siu bao

I read in the Baidu dictionary (http://baike.baidu.com/view/1237.htm) the following:


> 在论坛里面，一般都会有很多人参加，楼主发出主贴表示发出论坛的主题，然后邀请各位友友进来谈论，主人--楼主要招待各位客人，家里当然会有沙发，板凳等招待客人，但是客人太多，而且要平等对待各位客人，所以只能以先到为尊，第一个先到者（第一个回帖）就可以坐沙发，而第二个只能坐板凳了，第三个就是地板了，为了安慰自己或者不嫌弃楼主的招待，可以把地板当真皮地板，呵呵，有意思吧


 
If this is correct, I don't think there is any corresponding terminology in English.  (However, I don't use many forums, so maybe I just don't know.)  I do think that people get excited to be the first to respond, but I don't think there is a word for it?  I'll keep looking.


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## humvee

Bodyholic, thanks for your insightful discussion again. First and foremost, your restricted rendering of the word bump is at odds with my clarification at the first place. What I really said is that bump is a polysemous words which could mean both "顶" and probably "沙发". The latter usage could be traced to the translation of Russian hackers' slang into English. And in real English, people do simply type the "bump" just to show that they are the first respondent. In this sense it does coincide with the Chinese netspeak "沙发".

"沙发" is not "楼", Tis' I already explained. In plain English, 沙发 is the first reply/respondent, whereas, “楼" is an "(unfinished) builiding which". To put it in forum context, 沙发 is an thread, you can bump it as long as the moderator dosn't close it. Different concepts!

If I were to coin the words. My proposal is "rebump" and "bumple". It may sounds odd but morphologically correct nonetheless.

Yes, your reply helps alot. 顶楼上的！


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## humvee

char siu bao said:


> I read in the Baidu dictionary (http://baike.baidu.com/view/1237.htm) the following:
> 
> 
> If this is correct, I don't think there is any corresponding terminology in English. (However, I don't use many forums, so maybe I just don't know.) I do think that people get excited to be the first to respond, but I don't think there is a word for it? I'll keep looking.


 
Yes, you're right about the etymologies of those words and I've read it in Baidu too. Though it has nothing to do with this ongoing discussion.


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## char siu bao

hi humvee --

Unfortunately, I'm having difficulty following your ongoing discussion .

If your question is 



> 我想知道汉语网络用语里的，沙发，板凳，地板有没有地道的英文表达法


 
then my answer was that "I don't think there is any corresponding terminology in English."

At any rate, your proposed translations into English of "bump," "rebump" and "bumple" would be incomprehensible to an English speaker. I recommend, for clarity, "first responder", "second responder," and "third responder".


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## humvee

叉烧包，你的建议不错！


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## BODYholic

char siu bao said:


> I read in the Baidu dictionary (http://baike.baidu.com/view/1237.htm) the following:
> 
> 
> If this is correct, I don't think there is any corresponding terminology in English.  (However, I don't use many forums, so maybe I just don't know.)  I do think that people get excited to be the first to respond, but I don't think there is a word for it?  I'll keep looking.



Oh Baidu has a very good and complete explanation there. Thanks for sharing. Previously, I have totally no idea what is 地板. I learned.


humvee,
You need not agree but "沙发" is definitely not a thread. Your initial definition coincides with that of Baidu which is the *first* posting in a thread. This is akin to first floor or foundation (i.e. "沙发") of a high rise building. The building itself constitute a thread.

 "沙发" is, indeed, “楼". It's just that "沙发" occupies the very first floor (i.e. 1楼). At least, that is how I comprehend based on the quote from Baidu.


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## humvee

Bodyholic，沙发 doesn't equal to "楼" truly. I can say with confidence. The Baidu story is far from being original and complete. 
In Chinese, threadstarter is the first floor, one who "bumps" is the second floor, the third floor is 地板. and "楼" is the whole building. You mistake part for whole. The part-for-whole mechanism does work in figurative language. Say, metonymy, That's why the proper noun Washington alone can refer to The US government, the United States or even the American people, depending on context. The same goes with the word "北京" or "中南海". If it is in this sense that you conclude that 沙发 is 楼, I have no bone to pick! No offense!


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## BODYholic

humvee,
No problem. It is good to see things from more than one perspective and I really learn from all this sharing of information. Definitely no offense taken. 

Cheers.


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## samanthalee

As far as I know, the English equivalence of "沙发空缺中" is "Be the first to comment".



humvee said:


> My loosey-goosey conclusion is that English-speaking countries do have a concept 沙发，it is "bump", a polysemous term which originally means "bring up my post" and the other sense is, pragmatically rendered "Look, What a fast reply by me!" But they don't have words for "板凳" and "地板".



The use of "bump" looks similar to the concept of 沙发, but actually it is not. "Bump" simply means "顶" and nothing else. When the first reply says "bump", it means "I have nothing to say on this topic, but I think it's interesting and would like to draw everyone's attention to it".
The concept of "grabbing the 沙发" does exist in English, and it'll usually result in a post that reads "Hey, I'm the first to reply ". But there isn't an English equivalence for "沙发"



humvee said:


> In Chinese, threadstarter is the first floor, one who "bumps" is the second floor, the third floor is 地板. and "楼" is the whole building.



I think there's some confusions to the terms used. Let my try to make things clearer...
"楼" by itself means the building and in Chinese forums refers to "threads". (as mentioned by humvee)
"楼主" means "owner of the building" and refers to "threadstarter".
"楼上" refers to "the post above", "楼上" means "upstairs" and so "楼" means "stairs" in this instance and in forums is equivalent to "posts". (as mentioned by BODYholic)
The first post (created by the threadstarted) is "Ground Floor".
The second post, the 沙发, is the 2nd floor (US English, as noted by humvee) or the first floor (UK English, as noted by BODYholics. By the way...BODYholics, First Floor is 2楼, not 1楼. 1楼 is Ground Floor).

We also have to note that using the analogy of a building, a forum thread is built downwards (ie the Ground Floor is the topmost floor). Even if we rearrange the posts in reverse chronological order, the previous post is still "楼上", not "楼下".


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## humvee

Hello, samantha, bump is indeed a good equivalent for "沙发". It could be explained by etymology and metaphorical extension. But I won't go to great lengths to tell the whole story. Your nothing-else-but-ding argument doesn't capture the reality. The actual use of ding is most often deviant from its original meaning support. So does "沙发". People can simply type bump to get accrued points or read the hidden post, and it has nothing to do with its original sense.


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## BODYholic

humvee,
May I know what is your understanding of the word "沙发" (apart from using the word bump)?

At 7th Floor (7 楼), you wrote,


> And in real English, people do simply type the "bump" just to show that they are *the first respondent*. In this sense it does coincide with the Chinese netspeak "沙发".


In a thread, there is one and only "First Respondent" a.k.a "2  楼" a.k.a "沙发". However, in the same thread, we can have endless "bump" for whatever reasons the posters like. But can we have more than one "First Respondent" or "沙发" by your definition? I am open-minded and try to understand where you are coming from, but it is this part that contradicts.

I also realized (ok I'm slow) that "沙发" is a location (i.e. fixed at 2nd floor). "Bump" is not. In an empty thread, I can create a post with "bump" and declared myself as the "First Respondent" and therefore, secure a "沙发" location. But trust me, no one in Chinese Forums creates a post with the word "沙发" to replicate the same act as former. The usage is totally different.

We, all, have to agree that the function of "bump" does **not** bump up *a post*. It bumps up the entire thread such that the thread surfaces to the  top of a forum. "顶" (verb) serves this purpose like how a footballer would head "顶" a ball.
Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_(Internet)
Example of bumps used in thread: http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=88118&page=1580
Example of "顶" used in thread: http://tieba.baidu.com/f?z=37104377...iduPostBrowser&word=%B2%CC%D2%C0%C1%D6&pn=660

You also disagreed that "顶" is equivalent to "bump". In your opinion, what does "顶" serve in a thread?


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## humvee

Hello Bodyholic, this may be my last word on this subject. My conclusion may touch on three problems: What I really meant? Why we disagree? Could we agree to disagree?

What I really meant? revisited
1. bump is polysemous 
a. means "support" "agree" etc in Chinese
b. bump in order to get acrued points or read the hidden content
c. just wanna bump (for no particular reason)

As for 沙发 means the first reply

Therefore, one who first bumps is sofa, the paradox you called to attention can be simply resolved by the polysemy hypothesis. The first bump is indeed "sofa". but why the heck, the rest of the netizens other than 2楼 still bump? Well the latter bump could mean "support" etc.

Why we disagree?
1. Netspeaks are a large bunch of words and slangs not yet as standardized as legal documents. Ad hocs and idiosyncratic uses abound
2. language and culture diversity add further complexities
Given the above "chaos", if you like, Could we manage to define those words with clarity? The answer is yes and no. Yes in that we can collect as many as possible such slangs and deduce their meanings from actual everyday use. No in that word meanings are in "flux" in Protygorean sense, you can never step in the same river twice!


Could we agree to disagree?
What do you say, pal?


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## BODYholic

沙发

(10chars)


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## BODYholic

Does my previous post (18th Floor) make sense to you?
Since it was not the first post, therefore it does not qualify to be a 沙发.
But it can use to increase post count (your word: accrue points) or simply pump up the thread (your definition c.).

Did I use 沙发 correctly (based on your definition)?

We don't have to agree to disagree. I have said that I am open-minded. I am just trying to figure out your point of views. At the very least, I understand and agreed with you that "The first bump is indeed "sofa" " but what do you call subsequent bumps in Chinese? Many a times you simply brushed our doubts/queries off by saying it has more than one meaning (your word: polysemous).

Thank you for taking the time & trouble to respond.



humvee said:


> What I really meant? revisited
> 1. bump is polysemous
> a. means "support" "agree" etc in Chinese
> b. bump in order to get acrued points or read the hidden content
> c. just wanna bump (for no particular reason)
> 
> As for 沙发 means the first reply
> 
> Therefore, one who first bumps is sofa, the paradox you called to attention can be simply resolved by the polysemy hypothesis. The first bump is indeed "sofa". but why the heck, the rest of the netizens other than 2楼 still bump? Well *the latter bump could mean "support"* etc.


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