# Persian chane "chin"



## CyrusSH

According to wiktionary, it is from Proto-Indo-European *_ǵénus_ (“chin, jaw, cheek”), cognate with Avestan _zānu_, Sanskrit _hánu_, Latin _gena_ and English _chin_, all other sound shifts seem to be regular, _ǵ_>_z_ in Avestan, _ǵ_>_h_ in Sanskrit, _ǵ_>_g_ in Latin and _ǵ>k/ch_ in Germanic but there should be _ǵ_>_d_ in Persian (Compare to Avestan _zraiiaŋh_ and Persian _draya_), why it has a sound shift similar to the Germanic one?


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## fdb

New Persian čāna “chin” is most probably a borrowing from Turkish (Old Turkish çāŋa and çeŋe, Turkey-Turkish çene). It is very difficult to attach either to the Iranian words for “chin”.


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## CyrusSH

But there are also similar words in other western Iranian languages, such as Luri _chenawa_, Kurdish _cheng_, Mazandarani _chuna_, ...


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## fdb

Why can't Kurdish etc. borrow from Turkish as well?


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## CyrusSH

But according to "The Body and the Landscape, Metaphorical Strategies in the Lexicon of the Iranian Languages", the Persian words for "cheek" and "chin" have Iranian origin, it mentions Prs. _čakko-čāne_, Šir. _čak-o-čôneh_; Dav. _čak-o čuna_; Krmnš. Kurd. _ček-o-čana_; _ček-o-čenâva_; _čak-o-čanâka_; Deliǰ . _čako čonae_; ... it says they mostly denote a part of the head or the face, shifting from ‘top of the head’ (Gil. _čaku_) to ‘nape’ (WBal. _čakk_), from ‘forehead’ (Sgd. _čakāt_) to ‘temple’ (Wx. _čakka_) and from ‘cheek’ (Tāǰ. _čakka_, Lār. _čaak_) to ‘chin’ (Prs. _čak_, BoyAhm.Kuhg. _čak_, _čake_, Gil. _čakan_).


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## Treaty

The article doesn't discuss anything about the origin of _čāne._


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## CyrusSH

Turkish etymologists themselves say that Turkish _çene_ has a Persian origin: çene - Kelime Etimolojisi, Kelimesinin Kökeni

*Kelime Kökeni*

Farsça aynı anlama gelen çāne چانه sözcüğünden alıntıdır. Farsça sözcük Eski Farsça aynı anlama gelen çanu- sözcüğünden evrilmiştir. Bu sözcük Hintavrupa Anadilinde aynı anlama gelen yazılı örneği bulunmayan *genu-2 biçiminden evrilmiştir. 

Google Translation:

*Word Root*

Persian is quoted from the word چانه, which means the same thing. The Persian word has evolved from the bell-word of ancient Persian. This word has evolved from the native * genu-2 form, which does not have the same written meaning in native English.

The words for "chin" in other Turkic languages are: Uzbek _iyak_, Tatar _ijäk_, Kirghiz _ēk_, Kazakh _ĭjek_, Noghai _ijek_, Bashkir _ĭjek_, Karakalpak _ijek_, Kyrgyz _éék_, ...


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## Treaty

CyrusSH said:


> Turkish etymologists themselves say that Turkish _çene_ has a Persian origin: çene - Kelime Etimolojisi, Kelimesinin Kökeni


This is from Nisanyan's dictionary. There are at least three issues with it:

He lists Old Persian _čanu _(without asterisk) as the origin, which isn't attested. Assuming that he has meant *_čanu_, he hasn't explained where he got it from, especially when we know it cannot turn into Mid. Persian _danūg_, or be normally cognate with Avestan _zanu, _Skt. _hanu_ and Sogdian _zanū_(_g_), Parth. _zanax_, etc. 
He (and you) has apparently missed that there are cognates in other Turkic languages***. The older the word is, the less is the chance of being borrowed from Iranian.
Some cognates, as well as Ottoman Turkish, have kept the original _ŋ_ of the proto-Turkic root. If the PT word was to be borrowed by Pers. a change from Tur. ŋ > Pers. n was natural; however, in the reverse direction, why should Pers. _n _become Tur. _ŋ_?
*** The source of this page is Starostin, Dybo and Mudrak's (2003) _Etymological Dictionary of Altaic Languages_. The main problem with this work is that they might have a bit pushed the idea that the PT root is not a borrowing from non-"Altaic" langauges.


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## CyrusSH

I don't know where this ŋ comes from, Ottoman Turkish had Perso-Arabic script, of course it seems ك was used for both _k_ and _ŋ_ but the important point is that both _čāna_ and _čak_ in Persian mean "chin", so there is no reason to consider _ŋ_>_n_ in modern Turkish. The main word for "chin" in Ottoman Turkish, like Persian, was چانه:
چانه - Ottoman Turkish (1500-1928)-English Dictionary - Glosbe


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## Treaty

چکه "jaw, chin" is recorded as _čeŋe _(e.g., Romanized as chèn_g_é in Redhouse dictionary, 1880).


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## CyrusSH

I think the main issue is that proto-IE *_ǵ_ could be changed to _č_ in Persian or not, for example about Indo-Iranian words for "because, for" from proto-IE *_ǵʰī_, there are Sanskrit _hí_, Avestan _zī_ and Middle Persian _či_, is it true? Compare to Modern Persian چون and زیرا.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> Compare to Modern Persian چون and زیرا.


Those are synonyms, not cognates. Just because two words mean the same in modern language they don't necessarily have to come from the same source. _č-_particles in Persian are normally cognate to English _wh_-particles and Latin_ qu_-particles. I believe when you look for the MP origin for چون you will probably find a root meaning of _when _or _since_. But IIR languages are not my strong point, so someone should verify that.


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## Treaty

According to Nyberg, MP _čē_ is probably from _ča-hya, _an Old Iranian declined form of _ča_ "what", with etymology as suggested by berndf.


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## CyrusSH

There is no need for these theories when Middle Persian _či_ means exactly the same as Sanskrit _hí_ and Avestan _zī_.

What do you think about _čak_? This word can be found in the Middle Persian sources with the meaning of "chin, cheek". English _cheek_ has also a proto-Germanic origin similar to _chin_.


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## berndf

CyrusSH said:


> why it has a sound shift similar to the Germanic one?


It is not similar. Germanic has _k_ and not _č_.


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## fdb

IE *k and *kw  become Indo-Iranian č before IE front vowels, otherwise k. IE has the interrogative pronoun *kwe- (Avestan ča-) in ablaut with *kwo- (Latin quod, Avestan ka-), and also *kwi- (Latin quis, quid, Avestan či-).

*ĝ has nothing to do with this.


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## CyrusSH

fdb said:


> IE *k and *kw  become Indo-Iranian č before IE front vowels, otherwise k. IE has the interrogative pronoun *kwe- (Avestan ča-) in ablaut with *kwo- (Avestan ka-). *_ǵ _has nothing to do with this.



The important point is that there are different sound shifts in Persian and other western Iranian languages, for example look at another thread about Persian _jaw_ which is cognate with Pashto _žovạl_.


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## Treaty

Cyrus Potter and the ever-changing important point . So what? Pashto _ž _is the normal development of Iranian _j_. By the way, Pashto is Eastern Iranian. 


CyrusSH said:


> What do you think about _čak_?


Check your own post #6. _čak _doesn't seem to have meant "chin" originally. So, why should it be cognate with English _chin_?


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## CyrusSH

The important point is that post #6 is yours not mine, and _čak_ means "cheek, chin" in the western Iranian languages and it was the original meaning which was changed in the eastern Iranian languages.


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## Treaty

Post #5,


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