# Origin of the Arabic word Lugha



## Cilquiestsuens

Hello everyone,

I wanted to ask the experts of etymology if the word lugha (language, or word, if I am not mistaken) has a proper semitic origin (is there the same word / root in Hebrew, for instance?) or if this word comes from the Greek logos...

Thanks in advance to all for your input!!!!


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## Mahaodeh

Yes, the root does have a proper Semitic origin, up to my knowledge in Hebrew (lo3a) and Akkadian (lu3u) for throat.  The 3ain in Hebrew and other Semitic languages are cognate to both 3ain and ghain in Arabic (like seen and sheen).  By the way, the tonsil in Arabic is Laghaat.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Thank you very much...
> 
> Your answer settles the case then, because I can't really see the Greeks influencing the Akkadians  he he
> 
> Should we ask the other way round now, then:::
> 
> HAS THE GREEK WORD _*LOGOS*_ A SEMITIC ORIGIN?...
> 
> Remember, the Greeks borrowed many things from the Phoenicians (=Proto-Arabs, Lebanon, Syria), starting with their alphabet...
> 
> Or should we assume that this is just another coincidence????


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## mgwls

The word _logos_ comes from the Greek word _lego_, which means “to speak, to converse, to tell a story, to calculate”. This word in turn comes from the PIE *leg.

I obtained this information from Wiktionary.


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## Flaminius

Mahaodeh said:


> Yes, the root does have a proper Semitic origin, up to my knowledge in Hebrew (lo3a) and Akkadian (lu3u) for throat.


A minor correction.  The Hebrew word לֹעַ is to be read _loa`_.


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## Mahaodeh

^ Sorry!

I would guess it's a coincidence, unless one believes in a proto-world-language.


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## Josh_

Sometimes, when looking into similarities between Arabic and Hebrew it is often good to look into biblical Hebrew.  There is a biblical Hebrew verb לוע luu'a (or לעע la'a') meaning _to talk wildly_ which loosely corresponds to the Arabic verb لغا (lagha) _to talk nonsense_.  From this same root we get the word لغة (lugha) language.  So there does appear to be an ancient Semitic root meaning to talk.

I imagine לֹעַ must be derived from this root.

Both of these are very similar to the Greek λέγω lego. I suppose it is just a coincidence, but not entirely out of the realm of possibility.  Greek and Hebrew have other similarities, after all.  Namely, the alphabets of both languages are derived from the ancient Phoenician alphabet.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Thanks Mahaodeh, Josh_, Flaminius, mgwuls

For bringing me all this interesting and fascinating information...

Yes the idea of a proto language is something beyond the scope of, not only this forum, but our own knowledge, I guess!!!

Thanks a lot again!!!


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## El Verbo

There is a more obvious root in Hebrew. The word is translated as "tongue" in English and in Hebrew sounds like "Loshon". Now I dont know Arabic, but if that "gha" sound is in any way aspirated and not a hard consonant sound there would be a link between these two words. Compare lengauje, lingua,langauge,lange all of which could be translated as "tongue" and I think you see the point.


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## Cilquiestsuens

El Verbo said:


> There is a more obvious root in Hebrew. The word is translated as "tongue" in English and in Hebrew sounds like "Loshon". Now I dont know Arabic, but if that "gha" sound is in any way aspirated and not a hard consonant sound there would be a link between these two words. Compare lengauje, lingua,langauge,lange all of which could be translated as "tongue" and I think you see the point.


 
Interesting remark... The Arabic equivalent of your word would be Lisân (=tongue), I never made the connection between this word and lugha (and all its Hebrew equivalent)... There may be a connection, but I am pretty much sure it is beyond the scope of our knowledge!!!

I mean, it happens with languages which words are derived from roots like Sanskrit, Arabic, Hebrew, many roots which slightly differ, like having two similar letters and the third one is different, have related and close meanings, but I never remember having read anything on that or having heard about any research on that...

That would be pretty close to the proto-languages mentioned above....


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## בעל-חלומות

I don't think that the Hebrew לשון (lashon) and Arabic _lisan_ have anything to do with لغة (lugha). The meaning is close because they are both parts of the mouth. I don't know enough Arabic to compare, but since the Hebrew equivalent of _lugha -_לע (lo'a)- means "the inisde of the mouth" I assume that the Arabic word had a similar meaning once and got the "language" meaning later. This happen a lot in Hebrew. Both the words for lip and for tongue can mean "language", and the word for "a front tooth" also means "an idiom".


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## Mahaodeh

The Laghaat (at is a feminine marker) is tonsil (well, not exactly the tonsil, but the soft tissue in the area at the back of the throut) in Arabic; however, the use of this word is far less than that of lugha.  laghaat and lugha(t) are both derived from the same root: laam-ghain-waaw.  Lisaan is from a different root: laam-seen-nuun.

Lisaan is toung, but it is also used to express "language" and "dialect" although mostly used when talking about the "quality" of language as opposed to the language in general; or at least this is how I feel the correct use is.  You would use lisaan when you want to say something like "he speaks a perfect English language", and use lugha when you say something like "he understands the English language".


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## avok

Hi,

We have the word "lugat" in Turkish borrowed from Arabic of course. I have always thought it is an old word meaning "dictionary". So, I checked an online etymology dictionary of Turkish language. And it says that:



> (= Aram *luwcā* çene, boğaz, ses üretme aygıtı = Akad *luχχu* boğaz, gırtlak )


 
The word stems from the Aramaic word "chin, throat..": Akkadian "throat,gorge"


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## Mahaodeh

Interesting, in Arabic Lughd لغد is the area between the chin and the neck.


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## Lugubert

avok said:


> (= Aram *luwcā* çene, boğaz, ses üretme aygıtı = Akad *luχχu* boğaz, gırtlak )
> 
> The word stems from the Aramaic word "chin, throat..": Akkadian "throat,gorge"


 
To compare tongue: Ugaritic lšn, Akkadian lišānu.


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## avok

I can actually understand the Akkadian word "lisanu". Because "lisan" means "language" in Turkish. Must be a borrowed word.


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## Shlama_98

In Aramaic we say "La'za" which is spelled לעזא for dialect (But can also mean language), and we say "Lishana" which is spelled לשנא for language (But can also mean tongue).



avok said:


> I can actually understand the Akkadian word "lisanu". Because "lisan" means "language" in Turkish. Must be a borrowed word.



Turkish borrowed "Lisan" from Arabic because this is a semitic term, not Turkic.


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## Alijsh

According to Dehkhoda's Persian dictionary, Persian lughat / loghat is a borrowing from Arabic but it has a Greek origin. It's from Greek logos (entry).


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## Cilquiestsuens

Alijsh said:


> According to Dehkhoda's Persian dictionary, Persian lughat / loghat is a borrowing from Arabic but it has a Greek origin. It's from Greek logos (entry).


 
If you read thoroughly this thread you will then agree with me that this word logos cannot be in any way the origin of the word lugha...

This was also the mistake I made initially, I'm now intersted in knowing if there are words related to logos in other indo-european languages, because it could be the other way round (Greeks borrowed from Phoenician this word, let's not forget they borrowed their alphabet)...

P.S. : Hi Frank06, I didn't see that you edited my post, just noticed it a few minutes ago... Here is the new thread,

Cheers


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## Aydintashar

I think all these words: French _langue, _English _language, _Latin _lingua, _etc. have the same root as: لغة - لهجة - لسان - which is also the root for Greek _logos_.


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## Frank06

Hi,



Aydintashar said:


> I think all these words: French _langue, _English _language, _Latin _lingua, _etc. have the same root as: لغة - لهجة - لسان - which is also the root for Greek _logos_.


First of all, (a late) welcome.

Secondly: it's nice to read *what* you think. It would be nicer (and more productive), though, to learn *why* you think that way. I mean, what are your arguments?
While you are at it, can you please explain us your objections against the commonly accepted explanation that 'language', 'lingua' etc. are all based upon the PIE root *dnghu-, reflected in the older latin form *dingua* (*dnghu, by the way, is the root for a word as 'tongue', which makes that the words _tongue_ and _lingua_ are ultimately cognates!).
How does your statement above fit into all this?

Thirdly: Apart from claiming that _lugha_ and _logos_ are related (though you don't give arguments), you also state that _lingua _and_ logos_ are related. And this goes against the commonly accepted explanations.
Do you have any new arguments to support your idea that _logos_ and _lingua_ are related? 

Groetjes,

Frank


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## Tararam

The word "language" in Hebrew is "Safa" (שפה), or Lashon (לשון).
The word Safa is more common in spoken Hebrew but I think it's more of a new word and not an Ancient Hebrew one. I do believe "Lashon" is the more ancient one. Amusingly (and fairly logical), both words "Safa" and "Lashon" are the words for speech related body parts: "Safa" = lip , "Lashon" = tongue (which is common like "tongue" in english and "langue" in French - both words represent the tongue and the language).

Anyway... since both languages are Semitic, I tend to think that the word originates from this kind of languages (Aramaic maybe), and not Greek or other western languages. But that's just my honest opinion.


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## El Verbo

I agree with Aydintashar that logos is not a root word but has its root in an older language. I do not know Arabic, unfortunately. So I can not comment more on his thread. But after reading over this lengthy ddicussion I still hold that the Hebrew word  Lashon (tongue, language) is the root of them all I don't think there is any such thing as a "proto" language.

And incidentally, the word logos in Greek has a root "lex--" (see declension of verb legein in Greek) which is merely a variant of "less-" (the double ss in Greek generally contracts to an "x" sound) and this in turn is not to far from "lashon".

See OED on etymology of "language" which states there is a connection between "language" "lashon" and Aramaic "lissana".

Also of interest is that the OED connects language with Greek "glossa" or tongue.

And yes the OED does agree that tongue is  held to be cognate with Latin lingua tongue, for older _*dingua_; see OED for tongue.


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## Flaminius

Hello El Verbo,

...and welcome!  



El Verbo said:


> I agree with Aydintashar that logos is not a root word but has its root in an older language.


What do you mean by _logos_ having "its root in an older language"?  Do you mean it was a loan word from another language?  I assume that from your comment "I don't think there is any such thing as a 'proto' language."

First, assuming a proto-language is the most rigorously-tested theory that accounts for similarities and relatedness between so-called Indo-European languages.  Anyone is certainly at liberty to disagree but I am anxious to find out the reasons of your opposition.



> But after reading over this lengthy ddicussion I still hold that the Hebrew word  Lashon (tongue, language) is the root of them all (...)


Second, it would be great if you can itemise what "them all" exactly mean.  More welcome are explanations as to how Hebrew _lashon_ has morphed into the forms that you are trying to connect with the Hebrew word, what other Hebrew loans are, how and when the borrowing took place, why loans you are arguing for have not been as recognisable as generally accepted Hebrew loans such as Shabbat, mazel tov, chanukah and so on.



> And incidentally, the word logos in Greek has a root "lex--" (see declension of verb legein in Greek) which is merely a variant of "less-" (the double ss in Greek generally contracts to an "x" sound) and this in turn is not to far from "lashon".


Third, explanations for specific sound changes are as important as those slightly outside the pure etymological discussions as above.  You have argued that Hebrew _lashon_ has spawned a Greek "root 'lex--'" and lex-- is the origin of _logos_.  By this you have assumed that "lex" is a more fundamental morpheme than _logos_.  Please explain what "root" —"lex" being one of them in Greek— means.  If you are saying all related verb conjugations and related noun declensions are derived from "lex", how does the /s/ sound not show up in most derived forms?  If you have adopted «x» as the transcription for the Greek letter «ξ», the pronunciation for the latter is /ks/ and not /ss/.


> See OED on etymology of "language" which states there is a connection between "language" "lashon" and Aramaic "lissana".
> 
> Also of interest is that the OED connects language with Greek "glossa" or tongue.


Fourth, what kind of connection exactly does OED recognise between the Latin and Hebrew words?  The same question also applies to the connection between _language_ and _glossa_.  My Oxford dictionary is a dainty Concise Oxford and it does not mention any of the connections you mentioned above.



> And yes the OED does agree that tongue is held to be cognate with Latin lingua tongue, for older _*dingua_; see OED for tongue.


Fifth, Latin _lingua_ being a cognate to _tongue_ is confirmed by other reference works as quoted previously in this thread.  If your quoting OED here means that you admit to their argument that the two words are cognates, then you are implicitly in agreement with methodologies and conclusions of historical linguistics; among them the idea of proto-languages.  How does that fare with "I don't think there is any such thing as a 'proto' language"?


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## Mahaodeh

Aydintashar said:


> I think all these words: French _langue, _English _language, _Latin _lingua, _etc. have the same root as:





Aydintashar said:


> لغة - لهجة - لسان - which is also the root for Greek _logos_.




This is quite a vast generalization. lugha, lisaan and lahja come from three different roots in Arabic, up to my understanding the first two have cognates in most Semitic languages and the third has a cognate at least in Aramaic. This makes it very hard for me to accept that all three come from the same root when there are clearly three! I don't have much information about Greek but the forumers here established that logos and lingua are two separate roots also and the connection with the Semitic ones, while not totally dismissed, has no evidence to support it.




El Verbo said:


> But after reading over this lengthy ddicussion I still hold that the Hebrew word Lashon (tongue, language) is the root of them all...



But both roots l-3-a (for Lughat) and l-s-n (for lisaan and lashon) existed much earlier than Hebrew; they existed in Akkadian. How do you explain that?




El Verbo said:


> See OED on etymology of "language" which states there is a connection between "language" "lashon" and Aramaic "lissana".



This is a new concept; we are now connecting with a different root in Semitic languages. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I do believe that most would like to see some evidence before confirming.


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