# French Archaic Superlative: rarissime



## Venedude07

Hello, I was wondering whether the "ssime" in _rarissime _is an augmentative suffix such as the spanish "isimo" that applies to several adjectives (i.e.- rarisimo, finisimo, cheverisimo) or if this just happens with the word _rare. _Could it be that it is taken from the spanish?


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## timpeac

This thread might be of interest to you -

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=276793


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## Venedude07

thank you, that was actually quite interesting.


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## Flaminius

I know _rarissime_ is a Latin superlative but am not sure if you guys are talking about Latin.  Which language(s) does this word pertain to?


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## timpeac

I believe the thread started off life in the French forum, so I think Venedude is asking about that language.


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## Outsider

The Latin superlative is _rarissim*us*_, at least in the nominative case.


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## Flaminius

Right.  French _rarissime_ (which ends with /m/) seems to be derived ultimately from Latin _rarissimus_, _-a_, _-um_.  On the other hand, Latin _rarissime_ (which ends with /me/) is the superlative of an adverb, not an adjective.  Whew, the same spelling but in different notational systems...

While the ultimate source of French _rarissime_ is Latin, I am very curious if French inherited it directly from Romans or those "archaic superlatives" were loads from other Romance languages in a later time.


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## Outsider

My bet would be on a loan from Italian, or at least a reborrowing from Latin influenced by Italian, as several posters suggested in the other thread, because I remember reading once that the equivalent Portuguese superlative suffix _-íssimo_, as well as Spanish _-ísimo_, were also coined due to Italian influence during the Renaissance.

On another note, I am baffled by the thought of what a superlative adverb might be!...


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## timpeac

Outsider said:


> My bet would be on a loan from Italian, or at least a reborrowing from Latin influenced by Italian, as several posters suggested in the other thread, because I remember reading once that the equivalent Portuguese superlative suffix _-íssimo_, as well as Spanish _-ísimo_, were also coined due to Italian influence during the Renaissance.
> 
> On another note, I am baffled by the thought of what a superlative adverb might be!...


"The most quickly", or whatever - surely?


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## radagasty

Outsider said:


> On another note, I am baffled by the thought of what a superlative adverb might be!...


 
Just as adjectives can have a comparative and a superlative, so too can adverbs, e.g., _ill_, _worse_, w_orst, _or, in Latin, _male_, _peius_, _pessime_.


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## Outsider

Interesting, I had never noticed that.


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## J.F. de TROYES

Outsider said:


> My bet would be on a loan from Italian, or at least a reborrowing from Latin influenced by Italian, as several posters suggested in the other thread, because I remember reading once that the equivalent Portuguese superlative suffix _-íssimo_, as well as Spanish _-ísimo_, were also coined due to Italian influence during the Renaissance.
> 
> On another note, I am baffled by the thought of what a superlative adverb might be!...


 
Just to confirm your hypothesis. "rarissime" comes from Italian  where the absolute superlative is usually formed with this suffix ( alto=tall ; altissimo=very tall ; but the same as in French is also possible : molto alto=altissimo ). In French the adjectives ending with -issime actually date back to the Renaissance when Italian terms were borrowed by French ( 15th and 16th century ) and there are few : nobilissime, généralissime, grandissime, sérénissime dawns on me right now, and "brillantissime" which is sometimes used as to emphasize the idea of being very, very smart. So the Latin suffix  was borrowed by Italian and indirectly by French in few words.


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## Outsider

J.F. de TROYES said:


> So the Latin suffix  was borrowed by Italian and indirectly by French in few words.


Borrowed, or perhaps preserved in Italian... Then, later, French, which had lost the suffix, borrowed it from Italian.


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## Arrius

*Richissime* is, I believe, the example of this superlative still most commonly used in French. I should imagine that it and the other superlatives mentioned date back to the days when Latin was the language used at all European universities and serious books were also written in Latin. Maybe it was borrowed through Italian, but the French were certainly much exposed to the original source as well, right from the time when the Ancient Romans were in residence in Gaul.


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## Venedude07

OH! ok, so French did not take this superlative directly from its original language, Latin. It lost it, but eventually regained it through the Italian preserved version? That is actually quite an interesting concept, because I imagine this is something rare (Not the sharing of expressions between the two different dialects, but rather the sharing of expressions that actually derive from the root of the borrowing language!) thank you all! the other question I had following this was, can this be applied to every adjective in French or is it a matter of memorizing certain ones?


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## Arrius

The Latin (or Italian) form of the superlative in French is quite rare. I think yesterday was the first time I have ever written one, though not read one.  If you learn off the examples on this thread that should be quite enough for all purposes.


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## J.F. de TROYES

Outsider said:


> Borrowed, or perhaps preserved in Italian... Then, later, French, which had lost the suffix, borrowed it from Italian.


 
You are right ; "borrowing" is a figure of speech and perhaps a bit clumsy. I think it depends on the point of view : Romance languages can be considered either Latin dialects from an historical standpoint (diachrony in the academic style ! ) or  full languages from a present standpoint (synchrony) as nowadays they actually are.


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## J.F. de TROYES

http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/affart.exe?154;s=3793582215;?b=0;


Arrius said:


> *Richissime* is, I believe, the example of this superlative still most commonly used in French. I should imagine that it and the other superlatives mentioned date back to the days when Latin was the language used at all European universities and serious books were also written in Latin. Maybe it was borrowed through Italian, but the French were certainly much exposed to the original source as well, right from the time when the Ancient Romans were in residence in Gaul.


 
Interesting. I'd forgotten it though it's actually as usal as "rarissime". It comes probably from Italian too, as "le Trésor de la Langue Française" says :

*Étymol. et Hist.* Déb. XIVe s. « extrêmement riche (d'une terre) » (AIMÉ DU MONT-CASSIN, _Ystoire de li Normant_, livre I, chap. 42, éd. V. De Bartholomaeis, p. 54: une part *ricchissime* de Terre de Labor); de nouv. 1739 [éd.] « _id._ (d'une personne) » (MARIVAUX, _Triomphe de Plutus_, 4, p. 11). Dér. de _riche*_; suff. _-issime*_. *L'ex. du déb. du XIVe s. est prob. empr. à l'ital., le texte étant franco-ital. *

As far as the only suffix is concerned I must say the same reference dictionary presents it as coming from Latin *or* Italian :

http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/affart.exe?154;s=3793582215;?b=0;

but every previous quoted word is said coming from Italian.


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## J.F. de TROYES

Venedude07 said:


> OH! ok, so French did not take this superlative directly from its original language, Latin. It lost it, but eventually regained it through the Italian preserved version? That is actually quite an interesting concept, because I imagine this is something rare (Not the sharing of expressions between the two different dialects, but rather the sharing of expressions that actually derive from the root of the borrowing language!) thank you all! the other question I had following this was, can this be applied to every adjective in French or is it a matter of memorizing certain ones?


 
Yes, it is surprising. Only one thing is for sure, there is no example proving undoubtedly that the suffix comes direct from Latin. On the other hand the adverb "très" used with the meaning  of "-issimus',-a,-um,-e appears very early in French ( at last from 1160 ) [ Latin "trans" (beyond) > Old French "tras" ( right through, thoroughly) > tres > très ]. So I am inclined to think that the Latin suffix dropped out of oral use very early in the history of French language, maybe before French started differing from Latin.
If you'd apply to every adjective, I suppose  you would be understood by any Frenchman, but it would sound either weird or funny or ironic ...
As it is rather unusual you can easily do without it and if you do like it, just memorize "rarissime", "richissime" and "gravissime"


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## Outsider

In the intro to U2's live performance of _Helter Skelter_ in the album _Rattle and Hum_, Bono says "This is a song Charles Manson stole from The Beatles. We're stealin' it back..." 
I think what we have here is a case of words that got "stolen back".


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## Venedude07

Nice! you know what i was about to say is that, in spanish, we can apply the suffix to practically anything (rarisimo, finisimo, cheverisimo, grandisimo, malisimo, buenisimo, generalisimo...and the list goes on to even espectacularisimo, estupidisimo, and horripilantisimo).....Now I'm not sure if the latter three have been accepted by the academy, but they exemplify the common usage of this superlative- mostly for slang where I come from (Venezuela). So yes, that's why I was wondering if common/street french applies it to any adjective to give it that certain flavor.


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## Arrius

French does not even appear to have conserved the irregular Latin superlatives *optimus* of _bonus_ (good) and *pessimus* of malus (bad). On the other hand I think the Italian equivalents _ottimo_ and _pèssimo_ are pretty common; Spanish _optimo _exists but no longer seems to be used much,and has largely been replaced by _el más bueno,_ but _pésimo _as in _un_ _pésimo pianista_ is frequently seen and heard. Both _optimo_ and _péssimo _exist in Portuguese as well. However, French does use a form adapted from the Latin comparative to render these superlatives: the best (adverb) expressed as _le mieux_, from Latin comparative adverb _melius,_ and the best (adjective) _le meilleur_, from Latin comparative adjective_ melior_. Neither optime nor pessime exists in French, which would indicate a sort of resistance to any kind of Latin superlative, those quoted in earlier posts being somewhat "exotic" (re-)importations.


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## J.F. de TROYES

Venedude07 said:


> Nice! you know what i was about to say is that, in spanish, we can apply the suffix to practically anything (rarisimo, finisimo, cheverisimo, grandisimo, malisimo, buenisimo, generalisimo...and the list goes on to even espectacularisimo, estupidisimo, and horripilantisimo).....Now I'm not sure if the latter three have been accepted by the academy, but they exemplify the common usage of this superlative- mostly for slang where I come from (Venezuela). So yes, that's why I was wondering if common/street french applies it to any adjective to give it that certain flavor.


 
Common French does'nt use this suffix more than the standard language. Young people (and less young ones ! ) tend to emphasize the adverb "très"  by replacing it with the ajective or prefix "super" : " C'était super !"   ( It was great ! ), "Il est super sympa" ( he's very, very nice ). Only a few nouns are derived from "optimus" as "optimisme", "optimiste", "optimiser", and still fewer from "pessimus" : "pessimisme", pessimiste", but this is a bit off the point.


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## Nanon

To complete the TLF entry quoted by J.F. de Troyes, here is an article about the morphology of neologisms with -issime, such as "sublissime". 
"Sublissime" does not appear in the TLF, by the way. It is commonly used in women's fashion magazines... but it sounds so weird!
Unlike "buenísimo" (or "cheverísimo", venezolanamente hablando... ) in Spanish, these words do not belong to the common vocabulary but they are extremely expressive or ironical.


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## Arrius

*buenísimo *(*Nanon*) may well exist and be used for dramatic effect, but it is not to be found in any of my dictionaries, whereas* bonísimo* is used daily in adverts on Spanish TV to sing the praises of some dubious pre-cooked, packaged food, as an alternative to_ rico_ or _riquísimo, _and _is_ to be found in dictionaries. It is possible, however, that Spaniards (I cannot speak for Hispanic Americans) who are thought to be saying_ buenísimo_ are actually saying _bonísimo _whether or not they intended to, because the *ue *tends to become an _*o* _anyway. _Fuego_ (fire), for instance often sounds like fogo, the Portuguese form, in the mouth of a Spaniard.


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## Aoyama

> Just to confirm your hypothesis. "rarissime" comes from Italian where the absolute superlative is usually formed with this suffix ( alto=tall ; altissimo=very tall ; but the same as in French is also possible : molto alto=altissimo ). In French the adjectives ending with -issime actually date back to the Renaissance when Italian terms were borrowed by French ( 15th and 16th century ) and there are few : nobilissime, généralissime, grandissime, sérénissime dawns on me right now, and "brillantissime" which is sometimes used as to emphasize the idea of being very, very smart. So the Latin suffix was borrowed by Italian and indirectly by French in few words.


 (post #12)
That is very true.


> can this be applied to every adjective in French or is it a matter of memorizing certain ones?


I'd say it is "a matter of memorizing certain ones".
Richissime, gravissime have been cited already. You would have also nullissime (with a joking nuance). Not all adjectives would admit this form. Bellissime would sound strange (though maybe not completely impossible). But probably some licence is allowed here, simplissime, pauvrissime, noirissime (for chocolate) have appeared. The construction might also have to do with two syllables adjectives , meaning that it woud not work with longer adjectives (not the case in Italian, Spanish or Portuguese).


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## Nanon

Aoyama said:


> (post #12)
> The construction might also have to do with two syllables adjectives , meaning that it woud not work with longer adjectives (not the case in Italian, Spanish or Portuguese).


I am not sure of this. Excellentissime, généralissime, imbécilissime can be found as well.



Arrius said:


> *buenísimo *(*Nanon*) may well exist and be used for dramatic effect, but it is not to be found in any of my dictionaries, whereas* bonísimo* is used daily in adverts on Spanish TV to sing the praises of some dubious pre-cooked, packaged food, as an alternative to_ rico_ or _riquísimo, _and _is_ to be found in dictionaries. It is possible, however, that Spaniards (I cannot speak for Hispanic Americans) who are thought to be saying_ buenísimo_ are actually saying _bonísimo _whether or not they intended to, because the *ue *tends to become an _*o* _anyway. _Fuego_ (fire), for instance often sounds like fogo, the Portuguese form, in the mouth of a Spaniard.


Ahem... well, I was answering from my point of view. Buenísimo is the variant I share with Venedude07. Venezuelan Spanish is a second nature to me! 
Bonísimo makes sense (unaccented ue shifting to o). But buenísimo is rather frequent and not only in Venezuela. 
See RAE - Diccionario Panhispánico de Dudas: 
*b)* *bonísimo.* Superlativo irregular, formado con la raíz del adjetivo latino _bonus_ + el sufijo superlativo _-ísimo: «A esta Basi la temo, es bonísima, pero se enrolla como una persiana»_ (MtnGaite _Fragmentos_ [Esp. 1976]); _«Ella me enseñó a hacer el cordero con patatas al horno, que es bonísimo»_ (Castro/Alcántara/Colón _Cocina_ [R. Dom. 1996]). Esta forma está cayendo en desuso y hoy se prefiere _buenísimo_.


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## Aoyama

> I am not sure of this. Excellentissime, généralissime, imbécilissime can be found as well.


That is very true, but these words may not be as frequent as the shorter ones. But I agree that it can hardly be -at that point- be taken as a rule.
Still, excellentissime and imbécilissime are not commun. Généralissime is originally a translation from Spanish.


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## Aoyama

Et puis aussi, on s'apercevra que si on dit bien *bellissime* (au féminin plutôt , et à mon humble avis un emprunt direct à l'italien), on ne dit pas bon(n)issime, ni malissime...


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