# He confessed he <had taken><has taken><took>...



## shagrath1898

Good evening, i have to complete this sentence but i can't choose between D or E. could someone please help me? grazie mille <3

He confessed he ... the money from the safe and ... it with an accomplice.

a) had taken ; had shared

b) has taken ; has shared

c) has taken ; shared

d) took ; had shared

e) took ; shared


----------



## BLUEGLAZE

I like a) and e) is colloquial.


----------



## Rhye

I would use the pluperfect to indicate that the taking of the money occurred before the confession. That said, I would usually say "He confessed he had taken the money from the safe and shared it with an accomplice" which isn't an option. So I would probably pick a), even though, to my ear, it sounds a little bit odd to repeat the "had".

If the only possible options were d) and e), then only e) works. D) gives the indication that he shared the money before he took it which doesn't make sense.


----------



## shagrath1898

hi, i need the correct english form, not colloquial but grammatically correct, it's for an english school test


----------



## Rhye

It should be A) then.


----------



## sdgraham

You didn't tell us where you found this question, but I see nothing among the choices that would survive my editorial red pen, but e, is as good as it gets as far as I can see.

As a side note, regardless of your answer here, you're going to be in deep doodoo if you fail to capitalize "English," fail to capitalize "I" and fail to start sentences with an upper-case letter.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

sdgraham said:


> You didn't tell us where you found this question, but I see nothing among the choices that would survive my editorial red pen, but e, is as good as it gets as far as I can see.
> 
> As a side note, regardless of your answer here, you're going to be in deep doodoo if you fail to capitalize "English," fail to capitalize "I" and fail to start sentences with an upper-case letter.


I think I'm going to be in deep doodoo too, SDG.  I can't see anything the matter with A.

Where would your red pen fall?


----------



## shagrath1898

So none is thinking to choose D or E? Mr Tompion, I have to say that a friend of mine, Mr. Lloyd suggested me the D, he's  from England like you, but my English teacher told me it would be better to put E becouse to "took" the money and to share it with the accomplice are two verbs made in the past, or better, in the same past. is it correct?


----------



## sdgraham

Thomas Tompion said:


> Where would your red pen fall?



a) had taken ; had shared 

For the same reason that we would say "He has been going and coming..." and not "He has been going and has been coming...."


----------



## kalamazoo

a and e both seem fine to me and grammatically correct.   I agree that it would be better in a not to repeat 'had' which is unnecessary here.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

sdgraham said:


> a) had taken ; had shared
> 
> For the same reason that we would say "He has been going and coming..." and not "He has been going and has been coming...."


We're just going to have to disagree about this, SDG.

Many great writers have been congratulated on sentences like A.

I don't accept your going-and-coming point.  There is no possible elision to make it a good parallel.

Your proposed amendment doesn't meet the need to project meaning.  It wouldn't distinguish between these two:

A. _He confessed he had taken the money from the safe and had shared it with an accomplice._

A'.  _He confessed he had taken the money from the safe and shared it with an accomplice._

There's an important semantic difference between the two.

You insist on Y, but who is to know whether the *had* is elided or not?

If you wish to be clear that you want the meaning of A, you'd better not put A'.

I'd expect a good reporter to reject your editorial red pen, and hope he'd not be in deep doodoo if he did.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

shagrath1898 said:


> So none is thinking to choose D or E? Mr Tompion, I have to say that a friend of mine, Mr. Lloyd suggested me the D, he's  from England like you, but my English teacher told me it would be better to put E becouse to "took" the money and to share it with the accomplice are two verbs made in the past, or better, in the same past. is it correct?


No, I think it's the most complete boiled cabbage.

It's all a question of whether or not you want the feeling of anteriority (of one thing happening before another) and at what stage in the sentence.

I could write either D or E.  They'd mean different things.

I don't accept Rhye's interesting objection to D, that it suggests the sharing took place before the taking - D could mean that the taking took place before the sharing (as it has to) but that the sharing took place before something else, which isn't mentioned.

I couldn't write B or C.


----------



## bennymix

From this side of the Pond, Thomas's case for A is best, though I believe deleting the second 'had' is an improvement in grace.**  (I believe this is Kalamazoo's position.) As soon as you go for "had taken", B and C are out.

The only other acceptable one is E, and its meaning is different.   Given the choices, the issue of anteriority and order seems to be the point of the question.  The issue of embedding is noted.   E simply avoids this matter (and ignores embedding) and says,  "These things happened."

** In answering the question, however, I cannot agree with SDG.    That there is a possible improvement hurts A, a bit.   But SDG, you must look at what's left if you get so picky.  (There is no 'improved A' as a choice, only the wretched B and C, and thus one ends up in kindergarten with E.)


----------



## kalamazoo

How could someone 'confess' to something that he hadn't already done (or thought) before the confession?  Thus I don't see any problem with anteriority or meaning  in e.  In my opinion and observation, English tends to avoid the pluperfect unless it's really necessary and in this case it's not really necessary.


----------



## Parla

My view: (a) is the only grammatically perfect answer, since both the taking and the sharing preceded the confession. If this is a formal academic test, never mind colloquial usages; that must be the correct answer.


----------



## RM1(SS)

Rhye said:


> I would usually say "He confessed he had taken the money from the safe and shared it with an accomplice" which isn't an option. So I would probably pick a), even though, to my ear, it sounds a little bit odd to repeat the "had".




To me, the repetition of _had_ seems to require a follow-on: "had taken the money from the safe and had shared it with an accomplice before leaving the country."  But even in that case I still wouldn't use the second _had_.


----------



## Parla

> "He confessed he had taken the money from the safe and shared it with an accomplice."


Yes, that's what we would actually say, and in fact the past perfect is unspoken/understood with "shared"; i.e., there's no need to repeat it, because the "had" up front actually applies to both verbs.* But as Rhye said, that wasn't offered as an option, so (a), the only choice correctly (albeit redundantly) applying the past perfect, is the correct answer.

*That's the way we normally speak. We don't say "I have bought and _have_ paid for a new car"; the second "have" is unspoken but understood ("paid for" is still present perfect, not simple past tense).


----------



## Thomas Tompion

Parla said:


> Yes, that's what we would actually say, and in fact the past perfect is unspoken/understood with "shared"; [...]


What we would actually say would depend on what we wished to mean surely.

Don't you distinguish between *he confessed he took* and *he confessed he had taken*?

You write that we would actually not repeat the auxiliary, but hundreds of Americans do, in writing as well as in speech.  Here are two examples:

_In the parade was the old coach of the revolutionary period, which we have bought and have done over just as it was in those days._  John D Rockefeller Jnr to John D Rockefeller Snr.  November 7, 1935

_The poor man had bought and had reared his lamb. _ _Aspects of Negative Role Modeling in the David/Bathsheba_ _Story and Its Sequel  _Gary Staats.

The repetition brings emphasis, and there are occasions where we want emphasis.

To write that we say one and not the other is to fail to reflect the richness of the language.


----------



## shagrath1898

I agree that the buglar con't confess in the same time that he takes and shares the money so the E would be not correct.

I agree with Mr. Thomas, it seems to me that to repeat "had" brings just emphasis , the right emphasis needed in that sentence. 
I thank you all and wish a beautiful week


----------



## Thomas Tompion

shagrath1898 said:


> I agree that the buglar con't confess in the same time that he takes and shares the money so the E would be not correct.
> 
> I agree with Mr. Thomas, it seems to me that to repeat "had" brings just emphasis , the right emphasis needed in that sentence.
> I thank you all and wish a beautiful week


Hello Shagrath.

Several of us have told you that E would be an entirely correct sentence.

*He took the money and shared it with an accomplice* does NOT imply that these two actions were simultaneous.


----------



## roxcyn

I would select option E.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

roxcyn said:


> I would select option E.


Hello Roxcy,

In what way is it superior, in your view, to A or D?


----------



## roxcyn

Hi @Thomas Tompion!  I think A, D, and E would all work.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

roxcyn said:


> Hi @Thomas Tompion!  I think A, D, and E would all work.


Ah, then we agree.  It's why we've been saying it's a poor question.

In multi-choice questions, only one of the answers should be correct.


----------



## roxcyn

Yes, I hate test questions where multiple answers are correct.  Hopefully the prof gave credit for any of those answers.


----------



## shagrath1898

Unfortunately there's just one correct answer, I've to follow the grammatically correct one, not the one which could work in the spoken language. This could be an English question for a formal military academic test for italian air force officers.


----------



## bennymix

Shag, choose A.   It's best.


----------



## shagrath1898

Hi Mr Thompion, I want to say non that took and shared are simultaneous but that took ans shared are at the same tense of confessed, is that grammatically correct?


----------



## Thomas Tompion

shagrath1898 said:


> Unfortunately there's just one correct answer, I've to follow the grammatically correct one, not the one which could work in the spoken language. This could be an English question for a formal military academic test for italian air force officers.


We've told you that there are three grammatically correct answers.  This has nothing to do with what would or would not work in the spoken language.

If it's a formal military academic test, you need to find someone competent to set it.  Whoever set this clearly doesn't come into this category.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

shagrath1898 said:


> Hi Mr Thompion, I want to say non that took and shared are simultaneous but that took ans shared are at the same tense of confessed, is that grammatically correct?


I'm not sure what you are asking.  The three grammatically correct answers are A, D, & E.  Which one is appropriate to the situation you wish to describe is anybody's guess - because your description of the circumstances is far from clear, I'm sorry to say.

I'm sorry that some people have suggested that one grammatically correct answer is more appropriate than either of the other two, without having the information they would clearly need to choose.

If there was an element in the question which you have been hiding from us, Shagrath, you've been wasting our time.


----------



## shagrath1898




----------



## siares

Welcome to the forum, shagrath!



shagrath1898 said:


> I want to say non that took and shared are simultaneous but that took ans shared are at the same tense of confessed, is that grammatically correct?



Are you asking about logic here?


----------



## shagrath1898

Dear Mr Tompion, I thank everybody for the time you are spending for this question.


----------



## shagrath1898

hi Siares, no, I was asking about "consecutio temporum", sequence of tenses.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

Hi Shagrath,

Many thanks for posting that photo.  It shows that there was no information withheld.

It is a truly appalling question, for which three of the answers are entirely correct grammatically, and entirely natural and idiomatic.

If you had to take this examination, you have my sympathy.  I see it was set for December 10th; have you had the results yet?

I didn't dare look at any of the other questions.


----------



## shagrath1898

The date of 10th was the day limit for giving warning by email about mistakes in the questions database, i've warned this and other questions but they told me that this question is to take as correct.


----------



## Thomas Tompion

shagrath1898 said:


> The date of 10th was the day limit for giving warning by email about mistakes in the questions database, i've warned this and other questions but they told me that this question is to take as correct.


Very interesting.  You were quite right to warn them.


----------



## bennymix

Thomas,
Yes, three answers are correct grammatically.   Yet "choose the grammatically correct answer" was unlikely to 
be the direction.

So several of us have given 'best advice' and yes it's a bit of a crap shoot.

Yes, there are reasons for thinking A might be 'more appropriate'.   One looks at the other answers and makes inferences
about what the issue might be.   That it involves sequencing and the use of past perfect is a plausible inference.

That's the reason for suggesting that A is best.   Of course outside-world context is often not available, so your apparent
stand,  "We can't choose without knowing it" is unlikely the best advice to a test taker (it amounts to, 'simply roll the dice').

I myself would say 'roll the dice' only when there are no internal clues as to what the question may be about.



Thomas Tompion said:


> I'm not sure what you are asking. The three grammatically correct answers are A, D, & E. Which one is appropriate to the situation you wish to describe is anybody's guess - because your description of the circumstances is far from clear, I'm sorry to say.
> 
> I'm sorry that some people have suggested that one grammatically correct answer is more appropriate than either of the other two, without having the information they would clearly need to choose.


----------



## shagrath1898

Would somebody mind helping me please to check if there are mistakes?


----------



## siares

Hello,
each individual question needs its own thread (and they need to be typed), so that they are easy to search from the dictionary.


----------



## Florentia52

shagrath1898 said:


> View attachment 17522
> 
> Would somebody mind helping me please to check if there are mistakes?


I'm sorry, but we can't check entire texts for mistakes. If you have a question about one of the sentences, please start a new thread on that topic, and copy the sentence into the body of your post, rather than posting a photo of the page.


----------



## shagrath1898

Thank you.


----------

