# Not being fluent in your first language



## Anne

When a person is born into a Spanish speaking family and learns the language from birth, how is it that they are not fluent?  I'm reading and hearing of what I thought were native speakers who cannot understand what is said on TV and (this was really a shock) adults who speak Spanish like a child.  How can this be?

It makes learning to speak and understand Spanish very formidable indeed if people born to it have what sounds like insurmountable difficulties.

Anne


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## Random1

Maybe the parent(s) of the kid didnt go to school or moved when they were little? I'm sure some kids dont learn it from their parent(s), but instead focus on learning english instead of spanish. If they really are from a spanish speaking country and should be fluent, then it is sad...


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## salvador_1_99

Yo no  he escuchado de personas con esas dificultades para hablar y oir. Si es que las hay debe ser por que no escuchan bien o debido a  alguna enfermedad. Si esto  es verdad mi pregunta es si  pasa lo mismo con gente que habla alguna otra lengua.


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## Mariaguadalupe

I have stated before that I live near the Texas-México border and this type of speech you are referring to is very common around here. I believe there are several factors that influence the lack of proficiency in either language. 

In fact, we can also relate this to our -mexican- native populations, where they first learn their own language and then are introduced to Spanish when they are enrolled in school at age 6. However, they do not study in Spanish, they are taught in their own native language (nahuatl, huasteco, etc) and only study Spanish as a foreign language. Regretfully, many of them leave school before they can get the full grasp of Spanish.

Secondly, although many of these mexican-american people, the majority are legal american citizens, they go back and forth to both countries, not fully learning either language. This causes for their "switching" from one language to another. For example, *metchear* for *match*, *púshale* instead of *push.* _It does create bewilderment for the uninformed listener.(This is different from code switching, where full ideas are shared in either language.)_ Even if you have heard this kind of jargon, sublanguage, Spanlgish, etc. a long time, new words seem to crop up all the time. 

I recently went to a translators conference and we were told of a situation where the interpreter had to translate _vaquiar._ We had no idea what that meant until she enlightened us: vacuum. Where that came from, I don't know.


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## diegodbs

No puedo saber cuál es la situación de esos niños o adultos hispanohablantes en los Estados Unidos. Pero en España, excepto en personas con determinados problemas o enfermedades que les impidan desarrollar el lenguaje, no he visto nunca ese problema.

Puede haber personas con un vocabulario más extenso o variado, distintos grados de cultura, pero los niños hablan y entienden, y los adultos no hablan como niños.


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## Random1

> I recently went to a translators conference and we were told of a situation where the interpreter had to translate _vaquiar._  We had no idea what that meant until she enlightened us:  vacuum.  Where that came from, I don't know.


Lol, vaqu- sounds like english VAC-uum. I would have probably guessed similar if I didn't know how to say to vacuum in spanish.


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## FlorenceC140

Strangely enough, I posted a thread called "yaquiando" with no idea what it meant . . . and even still, i don't believe that this is the correct translation for the verb in the thread i posted.  Y en tu cama yaquiando . . . . and in your bed, I vacuum? . . . lolol . . . No pienso que esta traducion es lo que decir en el/la canto


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## diegodbs

I don't know what "yaquiando" can mean in Spanish. That seems Spanglish.


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## tonyray

No creo que la lengua hablada en casa sea necesariamente la "lengua materna." Uno domina mejor el idioma en el que recibe su educacion. Si yo hubiera nacido y crecido en Francia por ejemplo, aunque la familia hablase ingles en casa todo, mi lengua dominante seria el frances. Pero por otro lado, tal vez dependeria de la educacion y formacion de mis parientes ....pero la lengua en que uno recibe su educacion tiene mucho que ver con el desarrollo o no de la fluidez, a mi modo de ver.


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## vince

Let me try to say something in my "mother" tongue:

Ngo giu jo Vincent, ngo go ..umm how do you say mother language in Cantonese... hai gwongdongwa daan-hai...how do you say "I can mostly only speak"... yingman. ngo go fu mou hai heonggong-yan daan hai keoi-dei ... how do you say "they immigrated"...lei ka-na-dai saam-sap-gei lin yichin.

screw it, here's what I wanted to say in my mother tongue, but this time in a language i'm more fluent in:

Me llamo Vicente, mi lengua materna es el cantonés pero hablo casi solo el inglés. Mis padres son de Hong Kong pero inmigraron a Canadá hace aproximadamente 30 años.

Yeah, I'm definitely one of those people not fluent in their first language!

This situation occurs not necessarily because a language is inherently difficult. It usually occurs when there is little opportunity to use the "maternal language".
 Spanish of all languages is (relatively) close to English, so I don't think it's a language difficulty issue in Anne's case.


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## Pivra

I am fluent in Thai and English (although I let out my accent sometime, yes the V and the W lol) My parents are both in Thailand but when I was youn I talked to my dad in English.


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## danielfranco

Until fairly recently I could *speak* Spanish at you a thousand miles an hour and out the wazoo (if necessary), speaking idiomatically and generally with enough curses interspersed to sound very definitely unlike a child. But I was very inept in the correct use of the language, and ignorant of many, many, many, many grammatical and orthographical rules. Spanish grammar and spelling is something I had to learn as an adult, as a matter of choice, even though I was born in Mexico City.
So, I think I was not really *fluent* in my mother tongue, was I?


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## Pivra

danielfranco said:
			
		

> Until fairly recently I could *speak* Spanish at you a thousand miles an hour and out the wazoo (if necessary), speaking idiomatically and generally with enough curses interspersed to sound very definitely unlike a child. But I was very inept in the correct use of the language, and ignorant of many, many, many, many grammatical and orthographical rules. Spanish grammar and spelling is something I had to learn as an adult, as a matter of choice, even though I was born in Mexico City.
> So, I think I was not really *fluent* in my mother tongue, was I?


 
 I am trying to speak faster in Spanish, how can I achieve that? Right now I am speaking at the English speed. I want to talk faster.


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## danielfranco

I would think English-speed is good enough... I don't know there are many benefits when you speak faster. I don't know how to achieve it, either. I speak fast because that's how we speak in Mexico City, where I was born. Had I been born in a more rural setting, I'd probably speak slower in Spanish. But I don't.
Sorry I'm not more helpful...


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## tonyray

Hi

Keep in mind that speaking faster doesn't equate "fluency." What matters is that you can understand and be understood. I have spoken with people whose native language wasn't English and tried to speak faster to sound more "fluent." If you can speak faster and be understood, that's fine. But keep in mind that factors such as accent, pronunciation and tempo affect whether or not you'll be understood if you speak faster. 

Hope this helps

Saludos


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## panjabigator

I always used to reply back to my parents in English...so that is definitely my first language.  I can speak Punjabi and Hindi fairly well, but still not 100% fluently...and I yell at my parents all the time for not encouraging me more to speak...or better yet, starting a day 1! 

**storms out of room**


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## dinio

Hi Anne,
I think what you describe is very common among 'heritage learners'. My first language was Greek, but because I was educated and socialized in an English-speaking environment, my Greek was used only in the home environment. Outside of the house, only English was used.

I, like the people you describe, have a hard time undertanding t.v. news in Greek, and I would be completely lost trying to read a textbook on sociology. Yet, I can talk in Greek with ease about food and can stand my own when arguing with parents/siblings about whatever it is that family members argue... I think this is the case with many of us heritage speakers of a particular language: our ability in that language reflects the domains in which we use that language. If we don't use the language outside the home (in the bank, at school, at work, w/ the plumber, or hairdresser ....), we never acquire the specific competence needed for those domains. The end result of all this is that I struggle when trying to 'perform linguistically' (when trying to carry on a conversation) in these domains that I associate with English and not my ethnic language. 

I've also noticed that my level of proficiency in my first language fluctuates with age, or with time periods in my life. For me, it's not something that is/was constant. When I was younger and only associated with family and close 'ethnic' friends, my level of Greek was 'strong'. As I got older, made my own friends outside of my community, went to college, studied other languages, lived abroad, married a non-greek speaker,... i noticed that my level of fluency decreased. However, now that I have children of my own, I've found that I've reverted back to the language that I associate with childrearing and other motherly stuff...

I think then that what you've observed is pretty much the norm for heritage speakers.


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## mariposita

Anne--
Are these speakers fluent in English (or some other language)? If so, then you have your explanation. At some point the scales tipped and they left the Spanish behind. Being truly bilingual requires a special set of circumstances in which the two languages are maintained and vital. Also, not all individuals have the same aptitude for language. Becoming bilingual and staying bilingual is not as simple as many people imagine.


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## Hakro

Anne said:
			
		

> When a person is born into a Spanish speaking family and learns the language from birth, how is it that they are not fluent? I'm reading and hearing of what I thought were native speakers who cannot understand what is said on TV and (this was really a shock) adults who speak Spanish like a child. How can this be?
> 
> It makes learning to speak and understand Spanish very formidable indeed if people born to it have what sounds like insurmountable difficulties.
> 
> Anne


Dear Anne, 
You should know that in every nation (especially Americans!) there is a certain pourcentage of people who can't express themselves properly in their own (and their only!) language, mostly because of the lack of education. You also could compare the languages in the US and the Spanish TV; there might be some differences, I think.
A bigger problem, in my opinion, is that even the educated people can't speak their own language without making serious mistakes, not even journalists who sould be professionals!


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## tonyray

Hakro said:
			
		

> Dear Anne,
> You should know that in every nation (especially Americans!) there is a certain pourcentage of people who can't express themselves properly in their own (and their only!) language, mostly because of the lack of education. You also could compare the languages in the US and the Spanish TV; there might be some differences, I think.
> A bigger problem, in my opinion, is that even the educated people can't speak their own language without making serious mistakes, not even journalists who sould be professionals!


 
I opine that the "especially Americans" part is quite uncalled for and unjustifiable in any plane of logic. Upon insinuating that when you say "especially Americans," in reference to a lack of education, please bear in mind that approximately 36 of the world's top 40 universities are in the US. 

Nonetheless, I do concur with you on the point you make about there being a certain percentage of people in every nation that can't express themselves "properly" in EVERY nation from Albania to Finland to Zimbabwe.

Cheers.


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## Hakro

Dear Tonyray,
As you must have seen, I wasn't talking about universities, I was talking about the ordinary people in the US, Albania, Finland, Zimbabwe etc. 
You also probably know that there are few other nations where there are so many people unable to speak the official language as in the US (Russia is the other one, about China an India I really don't know exactly...). 
I didn't mean to be offensive towards Americans, I'm sorry if I was.


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## mariposita

Hakro said:
			
		

> Dear Tonyray,
> As you must have seen, I wasn't talking about universities, I was talking about the ordinary people in the US, Albania, Finland, Zimbabwe etc.
> You also probably know that there are few other nations where there are so many people unable to speak the official language as in the US (Russia is the other one, about China an India I really don't know exactly...).
> I didn't mean to be offensive towards Americans, I'm sorry if I was.


 
There is no official language in the US.


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## tonyray

There's no official language in the US right now but we could reasonably expect that to change pretty soon due to the large influx of non-English speaking immigrants and since many live here for 10-20 without ever learning English.


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## mariposita

My great-grandparents lived in the US much longer than that without learning English. That's the history of our country...


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## Hakro

tonyray said:
			
		

> There's no official language in the US right now but we could reasonably expect that to change pretty soon due to the large influx of non-English speaking immigrants and since many live here for 10-20 without ever learning English.


OK, there is no "officially official" language in the US but you can't deny that English is the "non-officially official" language.


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## tonyray

Absolutely. English is the _de facto _official language in the US. There's no denying that.


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## lforestier

The problem starts when you have people speaking a language that they never learned in school. Then they taught their children that language and this was passed on without anyone having it corrected as in any educational system. 
Later on, this kids go to College and get their Master's Degree and Doctorates but when they express themselves in Spanish, they sound to the other Hispanics like an illiterate farmer. 
That's why it's not the same to say you understand Spanish or that you speak Spanish as opposed to being fluent in it.
It's interesting to hear in Texas, tejanos using words in spanish that have not been used in the rest of the spanish-speaking world for centuries. They should be proud to have been able to hold on to their language since before the independence of Texas and influx of English and German speaking immigrants but should now receive some formal training in the language.


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## panjabigator

Can you give some examples of any archaic words used?


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## nushh

mariposita said:
			
		

> Are these speakers fluent in English (or some other language)? If so, then you have your explanation.


Problem is these people we're talking about are not fluent in *any *language. As others have pointed out, their parents might have received little education in the first place, so the "mother tongue" they transmitted to their kids was probably "faulty" already. That's why you get that so often in Mexico and some states: it's not so much people who can speak both languages separately (or even one of them, for that matter), but rather people who can't speak either and get them mixed up - and think that just goes to show how much of the _other _language they speak. Just like that "_vacuum_"/"_vaquiar_" incident MariaGuadalupe mentioned 

They're equally illiterate in two languages and they don't even (wanto to) know. I'm sure you don't get that with mexicans who moved to the US to work after college, for instace, or with mexican-american kids who've gone to school in the States and can at least speak English just like any other -american kid.

A different reason is not wanting your children to learn their mother tongue, out of fear they might not pick up the local language well enough. I lived in Denmark as a kid and many of my parents' spanish friends spoke only Danish to their kids. I'm not saying it's ok (kids can handle learning several languages way better than we adults do  - if you'll let them read and receive a decent education), but it's how it was. And these would probably be the kind of speakers you mention, fluent in _at least_ one language, even if it's not their mother tongue.


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## panjabigator

Good point Nush.  With Indians, I have noticed that many Punjabi Hindus and Punjabi muslims will only teach their child Hindi or Urdu respectively and not Punjabi, because they do not want their child to learn it.  Rips me apart when I meet Punjabis who only speak to me in Hindi or Urdu because thats all their parents taught them....probably a similar feeling that Catalans get when they meet Spanish speaking Catalans.


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## mariposita

I've seen this from both sides. My grandparents immigrated to the US and spoke their native languages perfectly and English much less well, my father's generation speaks/spoke English perfectly and their parents' and grandparents' language to a lesser degree. My generation only controls a small lexicon of words and expressions in the second language (mostly related to religion, culture, food, untranslatable concepts, and, of course, "bad words"). We have no understanding of the grammar or writing.

Going in the other direction, my son is bilingual. We make sure to try to achieve some balance between the two languages, so that he is able to be proficient in them both. At no point does he speak them both equally well--he goes back and forth, having certain strengths in one language and different strengths in the other. I can understand why parents would give up on this process. It is a lot more work and sometimes it feels like you are holding the child back a bit in some ways, because it takes longer to master more than one language. I can only imagine how much harder it would be if maintaining the second (or third) language could actually lead to discrimination, as it does in some parts of the world. Or if the child had learning disabilities that made mastering one language a challenge. It's a tough choice.

In my SO's family the grandparents consciously decided not to teach the children Spanish, because they wanted them to be "American" and didn't want them to face the discrimination that they faced from the "anglo" world. 

Of course you never know how things will turn out, now their children's children are all scrambling to learn Spanish as a second language and their great-grandchild is bilingual and living back in the mother-country...


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## panjabigator

In my case, I wasnt taught the Panjabi or Hindi....I understood Hindi pretty well and Panjabi to lesser extent.  When I went to college I took courses to learn to speak, and since then I have stopped speaking English with my family...everything is now Hindi and Panjabi.  Although I do not like the fact that I wasnt taught from day one, I have no clue what my appreciation for these languages would have been had I had known them from the beginning.


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## panjabigator

The key is starting early...and I guess, resources!


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