# Anteil an vs Anteil von vs Anteil + genitive



## valdur

Hello all! 

So what's the difference between these 3?

The way I understand it is that "Anteil an" means a share IN something

The distinction then between von and genitive is more subtle but is this correct?: 

Anteil + genitiv implies a share OFFERED by a party or somebody - "der Anteil des afrikanischen Kontinents (an etw.)

Whereas Anteil von implies a share CONSISTIJG of something - "Anteil von 5% " oder Anteil von HIV in Afrika"

Can you guys clarify the difference between genitive and von with Anteil?

Use examples please for each !! And describe the rule please !


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## Gernot Back

I don't think, there is any difference between _Anteil von_,_ Anteil an_ and _Anteil + genitive_; they are all in a partitive sense!


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## valdur

I think there must by definition be a difference at least between Anteil an and the others -

Anteil an implies a share in something 
 - Anteil am Gewinn haben

Anteil von seems to be more regarding the consistency of something
- Anteil von 5% an ausländischen Produktionen 

Anteil + genitive seems to imply an amount supplied by somebody towards something 
- Anteil des afrikanischen Kontinents am Welthandel

Is this not correct ?


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## bearded

Hello valdur
Sorry, but I don't agree with your analysis in #3, because in my opinion all your examples  actually concern ''Anteil an'':
- Anteil (von 5%) an ausländischen Produktionen:  ''von 5%'' modifies Anteil, but Anteil governs 'an..Produktionen';
- Anteil (des af.Kontinents) am Welthandel: same thing: In reality it is 'Anteil am Welthandel'. Please compare '_mein_ Anteil am Welthandel' and 'Anteil _des afr.Kontinents _am Welthandel' (both reply to the question ''wessen Anteil am Welthandel?'').
The ''share'' meaning is there - in all 3 examples.


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## Kruemel

I agree with bearded man - it's always "Anteil an + Dativ" in your examples, supplemented with some additional information (_5 %, des afrikanischen Kontinents_). 

You could for example rephrase the first sentence like this: ... ein 5%iger *Anteil an* ausländischen Produktionen... 

_Anteil von 5 % _ is short for "_Anteil _*in Höhe von x %*_ an_" - so as you can see, there can be various additional information between _Anteil _and _an, _but _Anteil an _always means the same - no nuances, no different meanings


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## valdur

Ah that makes quite a lot of sense ! Thank you very much

So what's the difference between modifying Anteil with von or with the gentive? Or are they one and the same ?

As in could one say both:

Der Anteil des afrikanischen Kontinents am Welthandel

and

Der Anteil vom afrikanischen Kontinent am Welthandel

Or 
Anteil des Stroms an der Bruttoenergie

vs

Anteil von Strom an der Bruttoenergie

Is there no difference between these two
?


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## bearded

My share of the heritage:
_Mein Anteil des Erbes
Mein Anteil am Erbe
Mein Anteil vom Erbe_
In my opinion they are all semantically identical (as Gernot said in #2).
This was the core of your enquiry, wasn't it?


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## valdur

Ah in fact I think the answer to that is simply *wessen *vs *wovon 
*
You wouldn't say der Anteil vom af Kontinent am Welthandel unless the *actual continent *of Africa were part of the trade - what one means rather is  Africa's *contribution *so we use genitive 

Likewise you wouldn't say Anteil des Kakao in der Schokolade unless the cacao were literally offering the share - rather it is a part of the Anteil so we use von?

So in that case what's right here? : der Anteil (von Strom/ des Stroms) an der Energie - is the energy actively giving its share, making it gentive - or does it simply exist as a passive part of the share making it von?


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## valdur

what I mean is distinguishing between

Der Anteil *des Mannes* *von Ehre *am Erbe

The distinguishing between the genitive and dative von modifying Anteil *before the "an"
*
As Kruemel has suggested


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## bearded

valdur said:


> the difference between modifying Anteil with von or with the gentive?


In none of your examples you are modifying it - since there is an+dative everywhere.  A real 'modification' should be as per my #7, or as follows:
_Der Anteil des Welthandels / vom Welthandel (im afrikanischen Kontinent...)
Der Anteil der Bruttoenergie / von der Bruttoenergie (als Strom...)
or similar._
As long as there is 'an', it would be 'Anteil an...', no matter what you add or if you modify the remaining words. I think Kruemel has confirmed this.


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## valdur

I'm not sure that's allowed, as Kruemel has said it's always Anteil *an *etw.

The *an *can't be replaced as it goes with Anteil, but Anteil can be modified before it "Anteil von 5% am Welthandel"


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## bearded

valdur said:


> So in that case what's right here? : der Anteil (von Strom/ des Stroms) an der Energie


In this case I would suggest: _Der Stromanteil an der Energie._
It seems to me that you have now partly modified your initial question. For a moment, I thought we were on different wave lengths..


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## valdur

bearded man said:


> In this case I would suggest: _Der Stromanteil an der Energie._
> It seems to me that you have now partly modified your initial question. For a moment, I thought we were on different wave lengths..


Ah that works great ! Stromanteil

But then can I put anything in front of Anteil hypothetically ?

z.B: der Kakaoanteil, der Handelanteil etc  etc.


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## bearded

valdur said:


> But then can I put anything in front of Anteil hypothetically?


Yes, I think you can, as long as some other specification follows: e.g.
_Der Kakaoanteil an der Schokolade-Gesamtmasse..._
but I would like  native German members to confirm this.


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## Kruemel

valdur said:


> I'm not sure that's allowed, as Kruemel has said it's always Anteil *an *etw.



Please note that I said:



Kruemel said:


> it's always "Anteil an + Dativ" *in your examples*



Of course you will find _Anteil _combined with other prepositions like _in _or _für_

Einen Anteil in Prozent umrechnen
Der Anteil der Gesamtsumme für das Konto... (in accounting)



valdur said:


> Der Anteil *des Mannes* *von Ehre *am Erbe



"Der Mann von Ehre" is idiomatic and could be replaced by... let's call him Mike, so the structure of the sentence would change to

Mikes Anteil am Erbe --> Mikes = genitive (WHOSE share... Wessen Anteil?), Erbe = dative (share in what... Wovon?)
Again: Anteil an + dative.



bearded man said:


> Yes, I think you can, as long as some other specification follows: e.g.
> _Der Kakaoanteil an der Schokolade-Gesamtmasse..._
> but I would like  native German members to confirm this.



Compound nouns like _Kakaoanteil _are possible and often idiomatic, you don't need to further specify (_... an der Schokolade*n*gesamtmasse_).
Well, you can of course, but it sounds redundant. I wouldn't find it strange to find a specification in a very technical context (e.g. chemical research or whatsoever) but would never use it in a normal text or everyday life.

And, by the way:


valdur said:


> Handelanteil



It's _Handel*s*anteil_, we need a linking element here. But _Handelsanteil _if perfectly fine in German


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## manfy

bearded man said:


> but I would like  native German members to confirm this.


 
I'm not a German ... but I've seen one before! So maybe that makes my answer a bit useful. 

Just because German word formation rules allow the compounding of pretty much any noun does not guarantee that the result is idiomatic or that it makes semantic sense, e.g.:

Der Kakaoanteil an in Schokolade... 
Der Anteil von Kakao an in Schokolade... 
Kakaos Anteil an in Schokolade...  or maybe even 

Afrikas Anteil am Welthandel... 
Der Anteil Afrikas am Welthandel... 
Der Anteil von Afrika am Welthandel... 
Der Afrikaanteil am Welthandel... 

_[edit: correction of preposition an/in]_


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## bearded

I have now a further uncertainty concerning Kakao:
Since 'Kakaoanteil' already means Anteil an Kakao, would/should I use a different preposition if there is a further specification, for example
''Der Kakaoanteil in/bei der Schokolade''?
Thank you, Muttersprachler (also Austrians are welcome..)


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## manfy

I just had the same thought. "An" is wrong; "in or bei" is normally used!

And that also made me see now that genitive doesn't work here since it skews the meaning:
Der Zuckergehalt in Soft Drinks ist oft sehr hoch. 
Zuckers Gehalt in Soft Drinks ist oft sehr hoch.


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## valdur

manfy said:


> I'm not a German ... but I've seen one before! So maybe that makes my answer a bit useful.
> 
> Just because German word formation rules allow the compounding of pretty much any noun does not guarantee that the result is idiomatic or that it makes semantic sense, e.g.:
> 
> Der Kakaoanteil an Schokolade...
> Der Anteil von Kakao an Schokolade...
> Kakaos Anteil an Schokolade...  or maybe even
> 
> Afrikas Anteil am Welthandel...
> Der Anteil Afrikas am Welthandel...
> Der Anteil von Afrika am Welthandel...
> Der Afrikaanteil am Welthandel...


Ah but what I'm after then is not whether the combination is allowed but rather does "Der Anteil des Kakaos an der Schokolade" work or must it be von Kakao?

because it is not actively giving its share but rather is a passive process where the share is composed of Kakao (so meiner Meinung nach it MUST be von and not des) 

Or what is better ? Der Anteil von Strom an der Energie or der Anteil des Stroms an der Energie. Which sounds better ? And why?


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## manfy

Good question. I don't know what grammar officially says about this, but something bugs me about "Der Anteil des Kakaos in der Schokolade".
My primary choice is "Kakaoanteil" and distant second is "Anteil von Kakao".

I think the whole thing works similar to English, isn't it?
I'd rarely say "electricity's share in today's energy supply is...", but only "the share of electricity in today's energy supply is..."
Would you agree? Maybe I'm influenced by my native tongue?


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## Kruemel

I have a gut feeling that we've come to the "der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod"-discussion... [valdur, this means that Germans tend to use dative instead of genitive even though it is grammatically wrong.  Genitive often sounds very formal and outdated in our everyday life so we ourselves forget how to use it correctly]



manfy said:


> Good question. I don't know what grammar officially says about this, but something bugs me about "Der Anteil des Kakaos in der Schokolade".
> My primary choice is "Kakaoanteil" and distant second is "Anteil von Kakao".



Maybe this is an Austrian/German thing, but "Der Anteil des Kakaos in der Schokolade" sounds fine to me, even though I would put it "Der Kakaoanteil in der Schokolade".
I support manfy's first choice "Kakaoanteil" but would not use "Anteil von Kakao" - this one bugs me


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## manfy

Kruemel said:


> I have a gut feeling that we've come to the "der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod"-discussion... [valdur, this means that Germans tend to use dative instead of genitive even though it is grammatically wrong.  Genitive often sounds very formal and outdated in our everyday life so we ourselves forget how to use it correctly]


 
Yes, that might play a role in it.
But I think there's something else at play. I feel that genitive creates more of a possessive relationship between the nouns that just feels semantically wrong in some cases; in the compounded version this is not so, and the version with preposition is closer to the compounded version:

Der Zuckeranteil in Schokolade vs. Der Anteil von Zucker in Schokolade vs Zuckers Anteil in Schokolade
Sugar content in chocolate vs The content of sugar in chocolate vs Sugar's content in chocolate

In both languages, genitive just doesn't work for me.
Genitive "Zuckers Anteil" creates more a feeling of 'the share that *belongs to/is owned by* sugar'
Prepositional and compounded form go in the direction of 'the share/part that *is* sugar'

-----------------
I just had a thought.
It's a completely different sentence but same concept, and it answers BM's question in #14:

My brother's temper is unpredictable.
Die Launen meines Bruders sind nicht vorhersagbar. 
Meines Bruders Launen sind nicht vorhersagbar. 
Die Launen von meinem Bruder sind nicht vorhersagbar.  (but this can be heard in colloquial speech)
Meine Bruderlaunen sind nicht vorhersagbar.   It's grammatically correct but has a completely different meaning (in this case a nonsensical one)

Conclusion and generalized conceptual answer to BM's question in #14:
No, genitive form cannot be converted blindly to compounded or prepositional form and viceversa. In some cases it might work but in some other cases it creates a (sometimes substantial) semantic shift.


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## Kajjo

Just a note: Ingredients in food stuff are usually called _Gehalt_ and not _Anteil:_

_Diese Zartbitterschokolade hat einen Kakaogehalt von 56%.
Wie hoch ist der Gehalt an Kakao in der Vollmichschokolade von Aldi?_

_Anteil_ often sounds as part of trade volume rather than content:

_Lindt hat einen Anteil von über 50% bei gefüllten Ostereiern.
(<sells more than 50% of all cholocate eggs sold to consumers>)_


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## valdur

Yes !

This is what I was referring to!

So the genitive implies an *active *contribution of something belonging to someone being offered- Whereas the dative is a *passive *amount of a substance being offered by somebody

Anteil des Stroms an der Energie would be the part the electricity is giving actively towards something - whereas Anteil von Strom would be the amount of electricity in something (in der Zelle) etc


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## Kruemel

manfy said:


> Der Zuckeranteil in Schokolade vs. Der Anteil von Zucker in Schokolade vs Zuckers Anteil in Schokolade



Der Zuckeranteil in Schokolade 
Der Anteil von Zucker in Schokolade ... OK in spoken language, maybe some will also write this
Zuckers Anteil in Schokolade  does not work at all



manfy said:


> Genitive "Zuckers Anteil" creates more a feeling of 'the share that *belongs to/is owned by* sugar'
> Prepositional and compounded form go in the direction of 'the share/part that *is* sugar'



There are several kinds of genitive in German, e.g. genitivus possessivus (answering the question: _Wessen?_) or attributiver Genitiv (postpositive, _die Scheiben des Autos_ or put in front, when talking about people only:_ Meines Vaters Auto_ (= sächsischer Genitiv, as in English).


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## Hutschi

Hi, I want to go back to "Anteil an" vs. "Anteil vom".
Mostly it is equal. But in special cases you cannot exchange it.

Ich habe einen Anteil am Gewinn. (It is a potential share.)
Ich erhalte einen Anteil vom Gewinn. (It is an actual share and includes a direction.)
Meinen Anteil vom Gewinn schaffe ich auf die Sparkasse. (It is an actual share. The direction of sharing movement is only in the background/past.)

Is "Meinen Anteil am Gewinn schaffe ich auf die Sparkasse." idiomatic? I'm not sure here. Maybe in special cases. 

In my feeling "am" and "vom" are quite different in point of view, not in content.


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