# Swedish: De vs Dem



## pooxyyy

Hi,

What's the difference between de and dem? I've been told it's just a matter of dialect, is there any other difference? i have an example: Var är nycklarna? De/Dem sitter i dörren.

Tack för hjälpen


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## BlueSuede

No, it's not a matter of dialect. It's more like a sociolect, if anything.

Let's compare it with 'Jag' och 'Mig'.
"Jag sitter i baren". 'Jag' is subject.
"Du hittar mig i baren". 'Mig' is object.

And now we do the same thing with 'De' and 'Dem'
"Nycklarna? De sitter i dörren." 'De' is subject
"Nycklarna? Du hittar dem i dörren." 'Dem' is object.

However, some people are pronouncing 'de' and 'dem' as 'dom'. Therefore some people cannot differ them apart. That's is a matter of dialect, or sociolect.


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## Wilma_Sweden

I would call the difference between de and dem purely grammatical: As BlueSuede explains very well, the pronoun de is the subject form (they) and dem is the object form (them), third person plural. These are the standard forms used in writing. 

To be honest, I very rarely hear any pronunciation other than /dom/ for both, and using dom in writing is becoming increasingly popular, although that form is considered colloquial by the Swedish Academy. I'd hate to find it in newspapers or other formal text, but if I read someone's personal blog or other informal text, I'd consider dom more acceptable than de/dem in the wrong places!


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## Hanq

I'm curious about that.
What do the other pronunciations of "de" and "dom" sound like?
<...>

Any other place I could look to hear it (in a sentence, maybe)?


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## Wilma_Sweden

Hanq said:


> I'm curious about that.
> What do the other pronunciations of "de" and "dom" sound like?
> Would you say that sounds right?
> 
> Any other place I could look to hear it (in a sentence, maybe)?


I belong to those who pronounce both pronouns as /dom/, so I am biased. Wiktionary, for example, lists several possible pronunciations, but I don't know any particular sites where you could listen to pronunciation examples of those particular words. However, you will find a lot of Swedish spoken in the Swedish TV and radio sites (svtplay.se and sr.se) - a lot of the programmes are available online, and those pronouns are common enough. There used to be a Swedish dialect sample site where you could hear speech in different dialects, although at the moment I can't remember where.


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## spruceroot

If I would talk to someone and they pronunced "de" the way it is written, i would think they said "det", since the *t *very often (almost always?) dropped from "det". I don't think I've ever heard anyone pronunce "dem" the way it is written. Does anyone know if there are dialects in Sweden that has this pronunciation?


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## Wilma_Sweden

spruceroot said:


> If I would talk to someone and they pronunced "de" the way it is written, i would think they said "det", since the *t *very often (almost always?) dropped from "det". I don't think I've ever heard anyone pronunce "dem" the way it is written. Does anyone know if there are dialects in Sweden that has this pronunciation?



I agree about the 'de' pronunciation, and I would also like to know where you'd hear dem pronounced as it's written. Finland-Swedish?


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## Lugubert

I think I'm a language professional. At least languages are what buys my food. But the de/dem/dom in my native Swedish is a tough nut. Some time ago, there was a quiz in Swedish on the alternatives in the daily DN. I was humiliated.

From the same paper, this (also in Swedish) might help.


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## Wilma_Sweden

Lugubert said:


> I think I'm a language professional. At least languages are what buys my food. But the de/dem/dom in my native Swedish is a tough nut. Some time ago, there was a quiz in Swedish on the alternatives in the daily DN. I was humiliated.
> 
> From the same paper, this (also in Swedish) might help.


Great stuff! I didn't have any problem with that quiz, but that's because I looked up the 'rules' for the hard parts only last year, and still remembered. I am assuming you at least aced the obvious ones?

But I'm still blissfully ignorant as far as pronunciation other than /dom/ is concerned.

Edit: it's mentioned in passing in an answer to a question about de,dem in writing, on the Swedish Language Council website, i.e. in Finland Swedish the pronunciation is /di/ for de and /dem/ for dem.


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## Max-Y

Wilma_Sweden said:


> Great stuff! I didn't have any problem with that quiz, but that's because I looked up the 'rules' for the hard parts only last year, and still remembered. I am assuming you at least aced the obvious ones?But I'm still blissfully ignorant as far as pronunciation other than /dom/ is concerned.Edit: it's mentioned in passing in an answer to a question about de,dem in writing, on the Swedish Language Council website, i.e. in Finland Swedish the pronunciation is /di/ for de and /dem/ for dem.


I tried that quiz as well and got 9/10. To a Dane the difference between "de" and "dem" is in most cases quite obvious since we make that distinction both when writing and when speaking.The Danish pronunciation seems to be the same as in Finland Swedish - "de" is pronounced "di" (rhymes (almost) with sea).Does anyone know when these two words came to be pronounced the same in Swedish?


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## kilton

Lugubert said:


> I think I'm a language professional. At least languages are what buys my food. But the de/dem/dom in my native Swedish is a tough nut. Some time ago, there was a quiz in Swedish on the alternatives in the daily DN. I was humiliated.
> 
> From the same paper, this (also in Swedish) might help.



As someone who's been studying Swedish for less than 2 years, what confuses me from that quiz are the questions where both de/dem are correct. Can someone explain when that's possible?


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## BlueSuede

In the DN link they say that de and dem are the same is some instances, like:
"Jag älskar _de/dem_ som lagar stolar."
"Jag tänker på _de/dem_ som samlar stolar."

You can freely chose between 'de' and 'dem', but there is a slight difference between the two. 'de' is short for 'de personer' = "those", while 'dem' is independent from persons = "them".  You can never say "dem personer", but you can always say "de personer".

DN continues: "En utväg vore mellanvägen: _de_ som enda skriftspråksform! Textintrycket skulle inte förändras nämnvärt; _de_ är fem till tio gånger vanligare än _dem_. Redan idag är ett gott råd att skriva _de_ om man tvekar. Risken är liten att det blir fel." And I say no. There is a significant difference between 'de' and 'dem'.
I shrug when I see "De gav de pengar". It is as wrong as "Du gav jag pengar".


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## Hanq

Wilma_Sweden said:


> spruceroot said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I would talk to someone and they pronunced  "de" the way it is written, i would think they said "det", since the *t *very  often (almost always?) dropped from "det". I don't think I've ever  heard anyone pronunce "dem" the way it is written. Does anyone know if  there are dialects in Sweden that has this pronunciation?
> 
> 
> 
> I agree about the 'de' pronunciation, and I would also like to know where you'd hear dem pronounced as it's written. Finland-Swedish?
Click to expand...

Not sure about Sweden (still going through the website Wilma provided). But the Finland-Swedish guess seems correct.
<...>


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## AutumnOwl

On Gotland can _de_ be pronounced as _di_ and _dem_ as _dåm_.


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