# Urdu: pronoun usage for God



## djpindia

I am an English-speaker trying to learn Hindi and Urdu (though not the Urdu script yet). I am taught, and practice, the usage of plural second and third-person pronouns for certain people (such as those that should be shown respect). However, I have been a little confused about pronoun usage when referencing God. My Hindi instructor (he doesn't specialize in Urdu) promotes "tu" in second person references to God (indicating intimacy). However, he insists that "ve/ye" always be used for Him in third person references, and that other number markers (on adjectives, verbs, etc.) always be plural (for respect). I am confused about these third person references, because there seems to be some differing usage in reference to God. Some Hindu Hindi writings switch back and forth, even when clearly only referencing one god. It seems that Christian Hindi/Urdu writings tend toward the singular. It seems that all of the Urdu poetry that I have browsed also uses the singular, as did all of the Hindi (not specifically Urdu) translations of the Qur'an that I found (though they seemed to do the same with the Prophet). Is there any standard in Urdu?


----------



## Qureshpor

Welcome to the Forum, djpindia SaaHib.

In Urdu, it is always "tuu" and the singular yih/vuh for the third person. As the thread title is Urdu, I shall avoid discussing Hindi. I shall provide you some examples from Urdu usage soon.


----------



## djpindia

Thank you for the reply! Yes, please keep it to Urdu, though you can type in devanagari for Urdu/Hindi words if you can (it is clearer than the romanized transliterations, and I don't know the Persian Urdu script). Is there a reason for using only the singular pronouns for God, when plural would be used to respect certain humans? Is the singular used consistently for God in Urdu (both in second and third person)?


----------



## Qureshpor

^ Urdu is not unique in referring to God in the second person singular. I know it is the case in Hindi, Punjabi, Persian and Arabic. You will of course know of "Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name" and I am sure there will be many more languages which refer to God in the singular pronoun. 

Here are some examples:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2430070&highlight=address+God (Post 3)

The thread below specifically addresses ways of evoking God. Post 7 is particularly helpful for your query but you will find more examples in other posts too.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2585644&highlight=devtaa (Post 7)

Reason? Well, possibly the most obvious reason is that people consider God to be a being with whom they can be completely intimate, where formality of language is unnecessary.


----------



## djpindia

Thank you again for your help. I had talked with an Arabic speaker a few days ago who confirmed what you are saying. I also know that Hindi commonly uses singular in second person addresses to God, though it seems quite inconsistent in the third person. I think I understand the reason "tuu" would be used when addressing God. Do I understand you right that, in Urdu, _only_ the singular third person pronouns are used when talking about God? If so, is the reason the same as for "tuu"?

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly: In Urdu, a third person plural would _always_ be used when talking about someone like a prophet, etc. Am I right?

Thanks!

(As a side note, English, even 15-16th century literary English, didn't use singular and plural to show respect to anyone in the second or third person.)


----------



## fdb

If I am not mistaken, all languages in the world address their respective deity or deities in the second person singular. This is certainly so in all European languages that have intimate vs polite forms (tu, du etc,) To address the deity as “vous “ or “Sie” or “Lei” would sound ridiculous and indeed sacrilegious. As I recall, Rudolf Otto writes about this in his book “Das Heilige” (English translation: “The idea of the holy”).


----------



## djpindia

fdb. I think that is probably generally true, at least in the "standardized" forms of the languages. However, at least in modern Hindi (at least among some Hindus), there are _some_ who address their deity in the second person plural sometimes. However, I am most curious about the use of honorific plurals when speaking of God in the third person in Urdu, where Urdu also uses plurals for respect for some humans. (In Hindi, at least among some peoples, it is also sometimes used for deity.)

In devanagari script, the difference that I am exploring lies between sentences like the following:

ख़ुदा है।("God is/exists." singular) and ख़ुदा हैं। ("God is/exists." plural)
ख़ुदा कहता है। ("God says." singular) and ख़ुदा कहते हैं। ("God says." plural)

Sorry that I don't know the Persian Urdu script. Also, I am not good with romanized transliterations.


----------



## Qureshpor

djpindia said:


> [...]In devanagari script, the difference that I am exploring lies between sentences like the following:
> 
> ख़ुदा है।("God is/exists." singular) and ख़ुदा हैं। ("God is/exists." plural)
> ख़ुदा कहता है। ("God says." singular) and ख़ुदा कहते हैं। ("God says." plural)
> 
> Sorry that I don't know the Persian Urdu script. Also, I am not good with romanized transliterations.


This form of plural does not exist in Urdu.


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Qureshpor said:


> This form of plural does not exist in Urdu.



One of the reasons which I think hasn't been mentioned apart from proximity, is the Unity of God. Most Monotheistic religions, especially Islam, would definitely be uncomfortable with sentences like _*khudaa kahte hai.N *_as it could be understood as a plural and in Monotheistic faith God is only one. I think the term of respect (aap) is therefore avoided for those two reasons.




fdb said:


> If I am not mistaken, all languages in the world  address their respective deity or deities in the second person singular.  This is certainly so in all European languages that have intimate vs  polite forms (tu, du etc,) To address the deity as “vous “ or “Sie” or  “Lei” would sound ridiculous and indeed sacrilegious. As I recall,  Rudolf Otto writes about this in his book “Das Heilige” (English  translation: “The idea of the holy”).



I beg to differ with this sweeping statement. In French at least, '_*vous*_' was used to address God for many centuries until a reform dating from the 60's changed the official wording of the Pater Noster replacing '_*vous*_' by '_*tu*_'. 



@ djpindia : Prophets and highly revered Islamic personalities are referred to in Urdu by using the pronoun '_*aap*_'; which doesn't mean '_*you*_' in that case, but is rather a very polite form of '_*he*_'. I don't think this usage exists in Hindi.


----------



## Qureshpor

Cilquiestsuens said:


> One of the reasons which I think hasn't been mentioned apart from proximity, is the Unity of God. Most Monotheistic religions, especially Islam, would definitely be uncomfortable with sentences like _*khudaa kahte hai.N *_as it could be understood as a plural and in Monotheistic faith God is only one. I think the term of respect (aap) is therefore avoided for those two reasons. [...]
> 
> @ djpindia : Prophets and highly revered Islamic personalities are referred to in Urdu by using the pronoun '_*aap*_'; which doesn't mean '_*you*_' in that case, but is rather a very polite form of '_*he*_'. I don't think this usage exists in Hindi.


I did have this in mind too, Cilquiestsuens SaaHib but I thought I would leave it for the time being.

I have mentioned this in a recent thread. Also please see this thread where at least one of the Hindi participants states that this form is found in Hindi too. 

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2361722&highlight=aap+third+person


----------



## fdb

Cilquiestsuens said:


> I beg to differ with this sweeping statement. In French at least, '_*vous*_' was used to address God for many centuries until a reform dating from the 60's changed the official wording of the Pater Noster replacing '_*vous*_' by '_*tu*_'.



You can find lots of different French versions, from the 13th to the 20th centuries, here: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-french.html. As you can see, “vous” does not come in until the 20th century, and seems already to have fallen out of favour.


----------



## djpindia

@Cilquiestsuens, thank you for the input. Yes, "aap" is definitely used in Hindi in cases like you described, though I think it is typically only used in such a way when the person is nearby. I could be wrong about that though. Would they be used in Urdu when writing about (third person) someone like a prophet?

@Qureshpor, When you say "this form of the plural doesn't exist in Urdu," do you mean that third person plural pronouns, verbs, and adjectives are _never_ used for respect in Urdu, or that they merely aren't used of God?

So far, what I am gathering is that plural forms are _never_ used of God in Urdu (though I imagine that an Urdu translation of some Qur'anic texts would still retain the majestic first-person plural "We" when God is speaking). Is that correct?

I would love some texts with which I could verify all of this, but they would have to be devanagari transliterations, as I cannot yet read the Persian script.


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

fdb said:


> You can find lots of different French versions, from the 13th to the 20th centuries, here: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-french.html. As you can see, “vous” does not come in until the 20th century, and seems already to have fallen out of favour.



Well no expert I am. But on the link you give to a website there is an example of the vous form used in 1870. That is 19th century. Not 20th. According to this website (seems to be a bit more scholarly researched than the one you gave a link to) the vous form started being used concurrently with tu from the 17th century onwards. 

So much for the statement that all languages of the world use 'tu' forms. 




Qureshpor said:


> I did have this in mind too, Cilquiestsuens SaaHib but I thought I would leave it for the time being.
> 
> I have mentioned this in a recent thread. Also  please see this thread where at least one of the Hindi participants  states that this form is found in Hindi too.
> 
> http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2361722&highlight=aap+third+person



Thank you for that.




djpindia said:


> @Cilquiestsuens, thank you for the input. Yes,  "aap" is definitely used in Hindi in cases like you described, though I  think it is typically only used in such a way when the person is nearby.  I could be wrong about that though. Would they be used in Urdu when  writing about (third person) someone like a prophet?
> .



Yes, it is preferable to use* aap* when talking of a Prophet or a Saint but the form is used alternately with. Example from an Urdu translation o Hayaat-e Muhammad PBUH by Muhammad Hussain Haykal.

1. Extract about the Prophet Ibraahiim PBUH

उन का  कहना  है जैसा कि हज़रात इब्राहिम अपनी बीवी और बेटे के साथ यहां तशरीफ़ लाए तो उन्होंने आप का पुरतपाक खैर मुक़द्दम  किया 


un kaa kahnaa hai jaisaa ki hazrat Ibraahiim apnii biivii aur beTe ke sath yahaN tashriif laa'e to unhon ne aap ka pur-tapaak khair-muqaddam kiyaa.

2. Extract about the Prophet Muhammad PBUH
*
*हर साल रमजान में ग़ार ए हिरा की खल्वत नशीनी और फ़िक्र व तदब्बुर का तसलसुल इस दर्जा ए कमाल तक पहुंच गया कि आप ग़ौर ओ फ़िक्र में गुम रहते। 
Har saal ramazan men ghaar-e Hiraa ki khalwat-nashiinii aur fikr aur tadabbur kaa tasalsul us darjah-e kamaal tak pahunch gayaa ki aap (salla'llahu alayhi wa sallam) ghaur o fikr men gum rahte.


I just hope the Urdu of the second sentence is not too tough for you.

Could you share examples of Hindi sentences about Hindu revered personalities. Will you use aap for great wisemen such as Shrii Shankaraacharya, for instance?


----------



## djpindia

Thanks for the response. My high register Urdu vocabulary is still weak. It will take me a bit to get through these short texts, but I will. All I can say about Hindu writings in Hindi is that basic honorific plurals are used—"aap" in second person and "ve" and "ye" in third person. However, their use of these when referring to God is often inconsistent. I would have to dig a bit more, but I don't think that I have run across the use of "aap" as a high third person honorific much, except for when the honored person is at hand. For example, when my father was visiting me, I used a third person "aap" as I introduced him to others. However, when I speak about him in his absence, I simply use the third person remote plural "ve". I believe this is pretty standard in Hindi. It is interesting to me that "aap" may be used (instead of "ve" or "ye") in Urdu as a third person honorific, even when the person is not near at hand. 

As it regards using honorific third person plurals for God in Urdu, I believe I remember reading that only one South Asian Muslim sect does this (I can't remember the details.), while most do not. However, I have since not found definite confirmation of this. So, it is currently seeming most appropriate to use singular all the time for God. The possible use of "aap" as a third person (even remote) honorific will take me a while to process though.


----------



## tonyspeed

djpindia said:


> I am an English-speaker trying to learn Hindi and Urdu (though not the Urdu script yet). I am taught, and practice, the usage of plural second and third-person pronouns for certain people (such as those that should be shown respect). However, I have been a little confused about pronoun usage when referencing God. My Hindi instructor (he doesn't specialize in Urdu) promotes "tu" in second person references to God (indicating intimacy). However, he insists that "ve/ye" always be used for Him in third person references, and that other number markers (on adjectives, verbs, etc.) always be plural (for respect). I am confused about these third person references, because there seems to be some differing usage in reference to God. Some Hindu Hindi writings switch back and forth, even when clearly only referencing one god. It seems that Christian Hindi/Urdu writings tend toward the singular. It seems that all of the Urdu poetry that I have browsed also uses the singular, as did all of the Hindi (not specifically Urdu) translations of the Qur'an that I found (though they seemed to do the same with the Prophet). Is there any standard in Urdu?



I think this is a modern phenomenon. I know a few people that may be uncomfortable using tu for God in front of a large audience. There are some families that have decided that "tu" is not to be used at all, even with young children. 

As far as the third person references, in colloquial Hindi ve is unused, so I am assuming you are refering to prose. As far as the prose I have seen, vah and yah is consistently used for God. So, be assured that there is no universal rule stating that ve and ye have to be used for God. If your teacher is teaching you this it is a personal preference.

For further background, my question is: Is your teacher a mother-tongue Hindi or Urdu speaker?


----------



## djpindia

@tonyspeed
Indeed, I have heard of some being uncomfortable using tu for God in front of a large audience. Around my area, tu often isn't used for children either. It is often only used to make a certain point. However, honorific ve and ye are in fact used in Hindi around here (Allahabad) in speaking about certain individual humans. In prose, I have seen ye and ve used honorifically for humans. The Hindi usage of ve in prose for God is inconsistent. It may be that usage of tu and vah for God in Urdu are almost totally consistent (This is the information I am primarily after.). (I did recently come across a clipping that talked about deobandis insisting on the use of honorific plurals for God. Someone may have to verify that though. Wikipedia says that they make up only 20% of Indian Islam though.)

@Cilquiestsuens
What is the context of the Urdu sentences that you gave? It seems difficult to discern the actual referent for the "aap" in each sentence. It doesn't seem clear that it is a high honorific third person reference.


----------



## Dib

fdb said:


> If I am not mistaken, all languages in the world address their respective deity or deities in the second person singular. This is certainly so in all European languages that have intimate vs polite forms (tu, du etc,) To address the deity as “vous “ or “Sie” or “Lei” would sound ridiculous and indeed sacrilegious. As I recall, Rudolf Otto writes about this in his book “Das Heilige” (English translation: “The idea of the holy”).



Just a quick (counter?-)note. In Bengali, the 2nd person pronouns tui-tumi-apni correspond historically to H/U tuu-tum-aap, but synchronically show purely respect gradation, each possessing a separate plural form (tora-tomra-apnara). But in Bengali, God is normally addressed as "tumi" - the middle respect grade of the 3 possible grades, same as what is used for elders in one's family - definitely so by the Hindus, and as far as I could find online also by Muslims and Christians. Among the Hindus, the intimate grade (tui) is used only by some specific sects/devotional groups, most notably by devout shāktas.


----------



## tonyspeed

djpindia said:


> @tonyspeed
> However, honorific ve and ye are in fact used in Hindi around here (Allahabad) in speaking about certain individual humans. .



Continuing this discussion here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1200450&page=2  to avoid going off topic.


----------



## amiramir

I'm sorry to resuscitate an old thread, but I had a similar question for Hindi. To keep the topic from veering in many directions, as it sort of did above, my very specific question, if I may impose on you, is what is standard verb usage to speak about God in the 3rd person-- do you use the singular or plural verb? (Above the question has been answered quite conclusively for Urdu-- i.e. use of the singular predominates). And by 'you,' let's assume an urban speaker. 

Any of you Hindi speakers has a view on bhagwaan karte hain vs. karta hai? A quick google search shows a preponderance of plural forms, but I'm not sure if we can extract that to be the standard. Many thanks.


----------



## Kahaani

fdb said:


> If I am not mistaken, all languages in the world address their respective deity or deities in the second person singular. This is certainly so in all European languages that have intimate vs polite forms (tu, du etc,) To address the deity as “vous “ or “Sie” or “Lei” would sound ridiculous and indeed sacrilegious. As I recall, Rudolf Otto writes about this in his book “Das Heilige” (English translation: “The idea of the holy”).


This is not true for Dutch, there are many Christian verses in which god is adressed with "U", similar to the French "vous".


----------



## marrish

_allaah miyaaN farmaat*e* ha*iN*_ (pl. hon. 3rd. pers.) is also used. It's not addresssing, though.


----------

