# Turkish influence on Hungarian



## Roel~

I read that Turkic languages have influenced Hungarian. I remarked in the word 'tessek' that it resembled 'tessekür ederim' a lot, but I couldn't really find other words which resembled Turkish. Except for the way the words sound, I can't really find any resemblance in a lot of vocabulary. Does anyone here know words which can be found both in Hungarian and Turkish or another Turkic language?


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## fdb

tessék (sic recte) means “please, help yourself”; teşekkür (sic recte) means “thanks”, so they are hardly the same in meaning. The latter, by the way, is from Arabic tašakkur.


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## Roel~

fdb said:


> tessék (sic recte) means “please, help yourself”; teşekkür (sic recte) means “thanks”, so they are hardly the same in meaning. The latter, by the way, is from Arabic tašakkur.



Oh ok, I guess I remember them wrong. I thought they were related. Well, that means that I couldn't find any resemblance at all.


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## Ben Jamin

fdb said:


> tessék (sic recte) means “please, help yourself”; teşekkür (sic recte) means “thanks”, so they are hardly the same in meaning. The latter, by the way, is from Arabic tašakkur.



But does it exclude the Turkish origin?


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## Ben Jamin

I found a following list, but my knowledge of both Hungarian and Turkish is negligible, so I don’t know how correct this list is (I think that at least the word bika meaning ox or bull is of Slavic origin (byk or bik)
Horse riding: _gyeplő_
Tribal law, nomadic society: _gyula, kündü, karcha, kapu, sereg, tábor, bilincs, törvény, tanú_
People's Names: _besenyő, nándor, böszörmény, káliz, bular (belár)_
Religion, Belief world: _báj, ige, igéz, boszorkány, ünnep, egyház, búcsú, gyón_
Breeding: _barom, ökör, bika, tinó, ünő, borjú, ürü, kos, kecske, disznó, ártány, tyúk, túró, író, köpű, ól, karám, vályú, komondor, kuvasz_
Agriculture: _arat, búza, árpa, őröl, ocsú, kölyű, eke, sarló, tarló, borsó, gyümölcs, alma, körte, som, dió, __kökény__, __kender__, csalán, tiló, csepű, orsó, szőlő, bor, seprő, csiger_
Fishing: _gyalom, vejsze, tok, süllő, gyertya_
Birds: _sólyom, keselyű, ölyv, turul, karvaly, tőr_ 
Crafts: _ács, szűcs_
Transport: _tengely, szál_ 
Trading: _bársony, gyöngy, bors, tár, szatócs_
Natural environment: _tenger, sár, szél_
Wildlife: _oroszlán, bölény, gödény, túzok, ürge, borz, bögöly_
Flora:: _gyertyán, kőris, katáng, kóró, gyékény, gyom, bojtorján, kökörcsin, üröm_
Family: _gyermek, kölyök, iker_
Test and physical properties: _térd, boka, gyomor, köldök, tar, csipa, szeplő_
Property and equipment: _sátor, cserge, karó, szék, teknő, bölcső, koporsó, balta_
Clothing: _süveg, saru, ködmön, csat, tükör_
Verbs: _gyűl, dől, szór, szűr, csavar, söpör, arat_


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## francisgranada

Ben Jamin said:


> But does it exclude the Turkish origin?


Probably yes, because the original stem of the verb is "tet", and "-jék" is the suffix of subjunctive/imperative 3rd. pers. sg.  So _tet+jék_ becomes _tessék_ and the literal meaning is "(que) guste", "(che) piaccia", "niech się podoba".


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## Ben Jamin

francisgranada said:


> Probably yes, because the original stem of the verb is "tet", and "-jék" is the suffix of subjunctive/imperative 3rd. pers. sg.  So _tet+jék_ becomes _tessék_ and the literal meaning is "(que) guste", "(che) piaccia", "niech się podoba".



Köszönöm! Now I know (relatively) much more about Hungarian!


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## rogermue

A considerable time ago I was interested in Hungarian and afterwards in Turkish. I found a lot of similarities between the two languages in grammar structures, but not in vocabulary. My assumption was that the Hungarian vocabulary did not have so many influences from outside languages, whereas Turkish vocabulary changed much from outside languages. This may be a cause why there are similarities in grammar structures whereas the vocabularies of the two languages differ.


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## Ben Jamin

rogermue said:


> A considerable time ago I was interested in Hungarian and afterwards in Turkish. I found a lot of similarities between the two languages in grammar structures, but not in vocabulary. My assumption was that the Hungarian vocabulary did not have so many influences from outside languages, whereas Turkish vocabulary changed much from outside languages. This may be a cause why there are similarities in grammar structures whereas the vocabularies of the two languages differ.



Wikipedia gives the following distribution for the Hungarian language:

Uncertain: 30%
Finno-Ugric: 21%
Slavic: 20%
German: 11%
Turkic: 9,5%
Latin and Greek: 6%
Romance: 2,5%
Other: 1%


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## DenisBiH

Ben Jamin said:


> Wikipedia gives the following distribution for the Hungarian language:
> 
> *Uncertain: 30%*
> Finno-Ugric: 21%
> Slavic: 20%
> German: 11%
> Turkic: 9,5%
> Latin and Greek: 6%
> Romance: 2,5%
> Other: 1%



That's a whole lot of words of uncertain origin. Is there a list somewhere?


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## rogermue

These percentages concern the vocabulary of Hungarian. Is there anywhere some reference to a similarity in grammar structures between Hungarian and Turkish? I found the similarities striking.


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## Perseas

Roel~ said:


> I read that Turkic languages have influenced Hungarian.


To what factors would someone attribute such an influence? To the Turkish conquests in Europe in the previous centuries perhaps? On the other hand, if we speak about similarities in grammar structures, then the subject is different.


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## Ben Jamin

rogermue said:


> These percentages concern the vocabulary of Hungarian. Is there anywhere some reference to a similarity in grammar structures between Hungarian and Turkish? I found the similarities striking.



As I said my knowledge of both Hungarian and Turkish is very little (I can make some simple sentences in Hungarian but not in Turkish), but I know following grammatical features that are common:
- agglutinative structures
- postpositions rather than prepositions
- suffixes marking possesion: his father= apja (H) babasi (T)
- vowel harmony.
You can read more about both languages in Wikipedia


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## francisgranada

Perseas said:


> To what factors would someone attribute such an influence? To the Turkish conquests in Europe in the previous centuries perhaps?


No. The Turkic influence “happened” before the arrival of the Hungarians in the Carpathian Basin, when the Magyar tribes lived “together” with various Turkic tribes. Some words could be borrowed also during the Turkish conquest, of course, but this is statistically irrelevant. The _Turkic_ loanwords in Hungarian are typically not from _Turkish_ (language spoken in Turkey), but they come from _various Turkic_ languages and, according to phonetical correspondencies, _mostly_ from “Chuvash-like” languages. 



Perseas said:


> On the other hand, if we speak about similarities in grammar structures, then the subject is different.


Yes, the subject is different also because these similarities are present in other Uralic langages as well (including e.g. the Finnish that has not been exposed to Turkic/Turkish influence). These similaraties resulted in the theory of a possible Uralo-Altaic language family, but this theory is today rejected by most of the linguists for many serious reasons. However, these similarities cannot be expained “simply” by mutual influence, at least not during the last 3-5 (or even more) millenia. 



Ben Jamin said:


> Wikipedia gives the following distribution for the Hungarian language:
> Uncertain: 30%
> Finno-Ugric: 21%
> Slavic: 20%
> German: 11%
> Turkic: 9,5%
> Latin and Greek: 6%
> Romance: 2,5%
> Other: 1%


Other sources may give different values, but (as far as I know) the differences are not too relevant. So, I think, these numbers can be considered approximately valid. 

On the other hand, these statistical data reflect rather the origin of the _word stems_ and not the whole existing lexicon of the language. From this point of view, the most “productive” words in Hungarian are those of Finno-Ugric origin as, according to various sources, more than 80% of the total lexicon of the modern Hungarian (including derived words, neologisms, compound words etc … ) seem to be of Finno-Ugric origin. 

The great number of the words of uncertain origin is primarily due to the fact that the Hungarian is the oldest documented Uralic language (from the 10th century A.D.) and there are not enough ancient written documents in other Uralic languages to be compared with ... 



rogermue said:


> ... My assumption was that the Hungarian vocabulary did not have so many influences from outside languages ....


Your assumption/observation is indeed valid to a great degree (especially for the last centuries), but not necessarily true for the origin of all the “historical" stems of the Hungarian language. Further details could be discussed in a separate (probably interesting) thread …


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## francisgranada

rogermue said:


> ... I found the similarities striking.


I agree with you . If we "simplify" a bit Ben Jamin's post #13, then we can speak practically (i.e. from the "Indo-European point of view") about _two main common phenomena _typical for both the Hungarian (Uralic) and the Turkish (Turkic/Altaic):

- Vocal harmony
- Agglutinative character

The _postpositions _and the _suffixes marking possesion _are "logical" (though not absolutely necessary) consequence of the agglutinative character of both the Turkish and Hungarian. On the other hand, the suffix _pairs _(or even _triplets_) -de/-da, -ban/-ben, -on/-en/-ön ... are "logical" consequence of the vocal harmony.


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## Roel~

francisgranada said:


> I agree with you . If we "simplify" a bit Ben Jamin's post #13, then we can speak practically (from the "Indo-European point of view") about _two main common phenomena _typical for both the Hungarian (Uralic) and the Turkish (Turkic/Altaic):
> 
> - Vocal harmony
> - Agglutinative character
> 
> The _postpositions _and the _suffixes marking possesion _are "logical" (though not absolutely necessary) consequence of the agglutanive character of both the Turkish and Hungarian. On the other hand, the suffix pairs (or even triplets) -de/-da, -ban/-ben, -on/-en/-ön ... are "logical" consequence of the vocal harmony.



Right now I learn both Turkish and Hungarian and I recognize this. For me as a layman who is interested in linguistics, I would say that a far kinship between Hungarian and Turkish could be possible, but of course I don't know all the scientific theories about it, although I can see very striking resemblances in the grammar of the two languages.


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## fdb

Ben Jamin said:


> As I said my knowledge of both Hungarian and Turkish is very little (I can make some simple sentences in Hungarian but not in Turkish), but I know following grammatical features that are common:
> - agglutinative structures
> - postpositions rather than prepositions
> - suffixes marking possesion: his father= apja (H) babasi (T)
> - vowel harmony.
> You can read more about both languages in Wikipedia



These are _typological_ similarities (agglutinative suffixing languages with vowel harmony) which you will find in Africa, Australia, Americas, everywhere. They do not prove genetic relationship.


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## Encolpius

DenisBiH said:


> That's a whole lot of words of uncertain origin. Is there a list somewhere?



I agree with francisgranada, a book of mine gives a completely different data: 

15% unknown
18% uncertain or discussed
5% onomatopoeic
2% German
1% Latin
3% Slavic
2% ancient Turkish
54% Finno-Ugric

Yes, there's a whole list in my book. Do you want to puzzle out the etymology?


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## Roel~

Encolpius said:


> I agree with francisgranada, a book of mine gives a completely different data:
> 
> 15% unknown
> 18% uncertain or discussed
> 5% onomatopoeic
> 2% German
> 1% Latin
> 3% Slavic
> 2% ancient Turkish
> 54% Finno-Ugric
> 
> Yes, there's a whole list in my book. Do you want to puzzle out the etymology?



2% German? That's weird, because I came across a lot of words which looked German, but maybe that has to do with the a lot of basic vocabulary.For instance: 'Ház' looks like: 'Haus'. 'kopyahat' looks like 'kaufen'. 'mond-' looks like the German word 'Mund'.

By the way, what is onomatopoeic?


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## francisgranada

Roel~ said:


> 2% German? That's weird, because I came across a lot of words which looked German, but maybe that has to do with the a lot of basic vocabulary.For instance: 'Ház' looks like: 'Haus'. 'kopyahat' looks like 'kaufen'. 'mond-' looks like the German word 'Mund'...


_Mond _is of Uralic origin, the -d at the end is an old frequentative formant (as in kérd, áld ...). The original Hung. stem is _mon_- (_man_- in Finnish, Samoyedic etc). For curiosity: if _mondani _(infinitive) were from Mund, then it should be *_mund*ol*ni_, as it is impossible to turn borrowed nouns into verbs without any suffix.

_Ház _is of Finno-Ugric origin and the similarity with Haus is accidental. Examples from other FU languages: _kat, kud, kota_. For curiosity: if _ház _were from Haus, then the accusative would probably be *_házt _and not _ház*a*t, _as this "a" is part of the original "full" stem (Finnish _kot*a*_). And more, the German diphthong _au _would become probably _ó_ in Hungarian, so the result should be rather *_hóz _than _ház_. 

What is 'kopyahat' ?


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## Roel~

francisgranada said:


> _Mond _is of Uralic origin, the -d at the end is an old frequentative formant (as in kérd, áld ...). The original Hung. stem is _mon_- (_man_- in Finnish, Samoyedic etc). For curiosity: if _mondani _(infinitive) were from Mund, then it should be *_mund*ol*ni_, as it is impossible to turn borrowed nouns into verbs without any suffix.
> 
> _Ház _is of Finno-Ugric origin and the similarity with Haus is accidental. Examples from other FU languages: _kat, kud, kota_. For curiosity: if _ház _were from Haus, then the accusative would probably be *_házt _and not _ház*a*t, _as this "a" is part of the original "full" stem (Finnish _kot*a*_). And more, the German diphthong _au _would become probably _ó_ in Hungarian, so the result should be rather *_hóz _than _ház_.
> 
> What is 'kopyahat' ?



I thought that I came across the word 'kopyahat' when I learned Hungarian, but I could be wrong. Your information is interesting, I always remember the word 'ház' thanks to the German word 'Haus'.  Maybe I should obtain some linguistic-books, since I think it's very interesting how these changes are occuring in languages.

I need to look up again what the word exactly was, because it looked like 'kopyahat', but I can't remember exactly. It had to do something with the word 'to buy', but 'to buy' is 'megvesz' in Hungarian.


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## francisgranada

Roel~ said:


> ... I need to look up again what the word exactly was, because it looked like 'kopyahat', but I can't remember exactly. It had to do something with the word 'to buy', but 'to buy' is 'megvesz' in Hungarian.


Perhaps, the word you are looking for is "kapható" (literally "receivable"), i.e. available or what you can get/receive/buy etc... e.g. in a shop. If so, then:

kapni - to get, receive ... (not to buy)
kaphatni - to be able to get, receive ....

The stem "kap" is of Hungarian origin.


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## Roel~

francisgranada said:


> Perhaps, the word you are looking for is "kapható" (literally "receivable"), i.e. available or what you can get/receive/buy etc... e.g. in a shop. If so, then:
> 
> kapni - to get, receive ... (not to buy)
> kaphatni - to be able to get, receive ....
> 
> The stem "kap" is of Hungarian origin.



How come that a lot of wordsseem to be similar to German? Did the ancient German tribes have contact with Finno-Ugric ones in some way and in that way achieved to have some similar basic vocabulary? I think there are actually a lot of coincidences, which makes me wonder if instead of coincidence the German tribes herited these words from Finno-Ugric tribes in some way.


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## francisgranada

Roel~ said:


> How come that a lot of wordsseem to be similar to German? Did the ancient German tribes have contact with Finno-Ugric ones in some way and in that way achieved to have some similar basic vocabulary? I think there are actually a lot of coincidences, which makes me wonder if instead of coincidence the German tribes herited these words from Finno-Ugric tribes in some way.


No, no ... _Kap _and_ kaufen_ have totally different meanings, as well as_ Mund_ and_ mondani_. Such "similarities" exist between whatever languages. E.g. who is in Hungarian _*ki*,_ in Italian _*chi*_ (prounced ki); boy is *fiú *(from Finno-Ugric *pi) and in Romanian son is *fiu *(from Lat. filius); to have is *haben *in German and *habere *in Latin (not cognates) etc ....

Applying the same logic you could also say that the English verb to *say *comes from the Hungarian *száj *(pron. sa:j) which means _mouth _...  This is exactly the same as _Mund _and _mond _!


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## Statement

Turkish and Hungarian are part of the same root language group of the Ural Altai language group. Of which Hungarian relates to the Ural aspect by origin of region being the Ural Mountains. Turkish is of the latter part of the group Altaic form the original Altay Mountain region. Much of this similarity and Turkish influence of Magyar came from the conquest of the region by the Turkic Hun Atilla and of course later the Ottomans..so you can find some trace similarities all through the Slavic world  and even Scandinavian regions all from Turkic conquests. These are seen from Finland to Poland to Hungary. Although there are quite a bit of similarities in world, grammar the phonetic sounds are also similar.

Tesekkur is a frequently presented example..Tesekkur (Tesh'ek'koor) is Turkic by root with slight Arabic via Islamic influence. This word is only used by Turks and Afghans for thank you, no one else in the Middle East uses this word. The Arabic word for thank you is Shukran or Shook'ron. So you see some of slight influece. 

Tessek in Hugarian is Please, help yourself...sure they are not exact translation equivalents but you dont to be genius to see the rooted practical similarities.


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## Statement

ubj:	      Turkish-Hungarian vocabulary comparison
Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 1993 21:08:25 -0800
Sender:       Turkish Cultural Program List 
From:         Al Trh 
To:           Suleyman Sadi SEFEROGLU 

The following is a list of basic Turkish words (mainly
verbs) and similar languages in the Hungarian language.

I compiled the list with assistance from the followers
of soc.culture.magyar.

AToprak

Here is the summary


Istanbul    American         Hungarian
Turkish     English
-------    ----------       -----------
ach   open                   .........
ak    flow                   .........
al    take, buy              .........
an    remember, cite         .........
as    hang                   .........
at    throw                  .........
az    become furious, mad    .........
bak   look                   .........
bas   step, press            .........
bay   make sbdy. pass out    ba'j      charm, cause faint
bich  cut (grass, cloth)     .........
bIch  cut (wood, etc)        .........
bil   know                   bir       have the power
bin   mount, ride            .........
bit   grow (for plants)      .........
bit   end                    .........
boz   spoil, break down      .........
bo"l  divide                 .........
bur   wring,twist(helically).........
bu"k  bend, twist            .........
cay   give up                .........
chak  strike together, nail  .........
chal  play (an instrument)   .........
chal  steal                  csal      cheat
charp slap, hit, run into    csap      slap, hit, strike
chat  fit together; build    csat      buckle
chek  pull                   .........
chel  trip (verb)            .........
chim  bathe                  .........
cho"k squat; collapse        .........
cho"z untie                  .........
de    say                    .........
del   bore (a hole)          .........
der   collect                .........
desh  open up(a hole,wound)  .........
dik   erect; plant           .........
dil   slice                  .........
din   end                    .........
diz   put in order           .........
dogh  be born (i.e. child)   .........
dogh  rise (sun)             .........
dol   get filled             tel       fill, full
doy   get full (stomach)     .........
do"gh beat                   .........
do"k  pour                   .........
dur   stop                   .........
duy   hear                   .........
du"r  fold                   tu"r      fold
ek    plant (plants)         .........
em    suck                   emlo"     tit, nipple


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## fdb

Statement said:


> Turkish and Hungarian are part of the same root language group of the Ural Altai language group.



The Ural-Altaic family is a hypothesis, not an established fact.



Statement said:


> Much of this similarity and Turkish influence of Magyar came from the conquest of the region by the Turkic Hun Atilla



This (if true) would weaken your argument that they are of the same family. By the way, it is doubtful whether the Huns were Turks.



Statement said:


> Tesekkur (Tesh'ek'koor) is Turkic by root with slight Arabic via Islamic influence.



Arabic tashakkur is infinitive stem V of the stem sh-k-r (elementary Arabic grammar). shukran is from the same stem.


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## ancalimon

fdb said:


> This (if true) would weaken your argument that they are of the same family. By the way, it is doubtful whether the Huns were Turks.



I don't think there is much reason to not accept that they were Turks. Few of the surviving words were found in Chinese and analyzed by Talat Tekin and those are of Turkic origin. Also their political structure was distinctively Turkic.

The code name Attila is thought be İtilli (Turkish for "the one who is from Itil" ;  the same as Itillian (as in Bulgarian or Hungarian). They are accepted as Ogur Turks (as opposed to their kindred Oghuz Turks). Magyars being known as Hungarians by many others is another hint since many think that "Hungar" is actually the word "On Ogur" itself. (Uyghur < Oy Ogur, Bulgar < Pol Ogur)

Hun in my opinion is the Proto-Turkic word ON (probably semantically related with the word "Khan") meaning "person of order" ~ "noble person" (as opposed to savage or barbarian).

ON also means white skinned, Western, lucky in Proto-Turkic.

When someone died an honorable death fighting, it was thought that this person grew in strength and value and reached a superior rank to become an OQ (arrow, fighter ~ think of it like the soul traveling like a bird (OQUÇ (arrow + fly,three,furthest) > kuş : bird) to Upper World like an arrow). That's probably how the word "UĞUR" meaning "LUCK" was formed. Also the words OGUR ~ OGHUZ (lucky ones) which over time started to mean "collection of tribes of fighters". I guess arrow and luck were logically associated with each other.

PS: Although I don't have any concrete evidence, I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augur might be related with "OQ, OGUR, OGHUZ" through PIE since Proto-Turkic *okɨ- (Turkish OKU) also means to read, recite, interpret. As a side note arrows (OQ) were used to tell the fortune by both Huns and many other Turks to determine which enemy to attack, which direction to go..  (I simply made the connection because augury is also related with birds and interpreting. The surprising thing is that I guess by coincidence,  augur means "the one who recites, who talks, who interprets in Turkic languages). Of course this is my opinion since this this word is listed as having unknown orig


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## Statement

Thank you, very good feedback! I too do not understand a the urge to not accept the Turkic origin but such movements seems exist!?? Like the widely accepted Ural Altaic language group followed and adhered to for many years now trying to be dismantled anddismissed as a hypothesis? Thank you again.


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## Wolverine9

Ancalimon, since you mentioned Wikipedia, please see the article on Hunnic language. Its linguistic classification is uncertain considering there are only three known words from the language!


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## berndf

ancalimon said:


> I don't think there is much reason to not accept that they were *not* Turks. Few of the surviving words were found in Chinese and analyzed by Talat Tekin and those are of Turkic origin. Also their political structure was distinctively Turkic.


I take the last _not_ to be a spelling mistake. You effectively said Huns were*n't* Turks. This doesn't seem to be what you were trying to say.

I agree with you that we do not have much reason to *reject *the idea that Huns were Turks.
On the other hand, we do not have much reason to *accept *the idea that Huns were Turks either.

We simply do not know enough about the the Hunnic language to be able to classify the language. Since the Huns were in all likelihood a multi-ethnic federation, traces of Turkic culture doesn't means their court/standard/imperial language was Turkic too. We simply can't tell.

And even, if we find two or three clearly Turkic words among the handful of attested word we would still not know if those were native or loan word. Imagine 1500 years from now, all what is left of modern Turkish is a handful of words spelled in Latin script and among them the words _otokar _and _gişe._ People arguing like you do it here in the year 3500 would then probably claim that Turkish was a French dialect.

But the topic of this thread is Hungarian (=Magyar) and not Hunnic. How and *if at all* Magyar is related to Hunnic is a totally open question.


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## er1973

Magyars are another Turanic people from Central Asia.

But actually majority of Turanic people was not Mongolian or Chinese oriented.

5000-6000 years ago Tarım Basin now at west China where Uygurs settled was a trade center and many migrators went there from Anatolia, Caucasia, so mixed there with natives.  These people first emerged as Huns and than Turk. These were the people of SİLK ROAD.

Genetically from Anatolia to West China (Sycian-Uyghur) people have most commonly J2, R1b, R1a and G markers. ( Now and at known history, because no migration from west to Central Asia at last 1500-2000 years)  C or K markers from Asia is so minority. These people commonly called as Turk or Turkic.

Because of starvation, or Mongols or China, sometimes these people migrated to west. Magyars are one of these tribes.

At 10 Century Arabian Historian El Bahri called Magyars as Turks. And meanwhile Byzantians call Magyars as Turks too. At 11. Century King 1. Geza called  as, "Geza Brave King of Turkish Country"    ‘ΓΕΩΒΙΤZΑC ΠΙΣΤΟC ΚΡΑΛΗC ΤΟΥΡΚΙΑC’ (Geōvitzas pistós králēs Tourkías) at his Byzantium made portrait.

Historical origin is the first connection between Magyars and Turks .

Second connetion is Kuman Turks, migrated to Hungary at middle ages.

Third connection is Ottomans.

Of course these affected on language.


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## er1973

Roel~ said:


> How come that a lot of wordsseem to be similar to German? Did the ancient German tribes have contact with Finno-Ugric ones in some way and in that way achieved to have some similar basic vocabulary? I think there are actually a lot of coincidences, which makes me wonder if instead of coincidence the German tribes herited these words from Finno-Ugric tribes in some way.




"Kap"  means, seize in Turkish. But it also means cup. It's written in a Turkish dictionary from 1070. But the word is orianted from Persian Language and also written in Tevrat.


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## francisgranada

Statement said:


> ... Tessek in Hugarian is Please, help yourself...sure they are not exact translation equivalents but you dont to be genius to see the rooted practical similarities.


Even more, if we add the noun _*úr *_(=lord/sir, señor, Herr ... in Hungarian) to _tessék_, we obtain an almost perfect correspondance/equivalence:  _teşekkür ~ tessékúr . _


fdb said:


> ... Arabic tashakkur is infinitive stem V of the stem sh-k-r (elementary Arabic grammar). shukran is from the same stem.


So as far as I understand, the Turkish _teşekkür _and the Hungarian _tessék _not only have different meanings (see fdb's post #2), but they have not a single consonant in common at the level of the respective etymological stems (see my post #6), i.e. _tet- _<> _sh-k-r._ Are these words _really _similar from the linguistic point of view? ...

P.S. The word _tessékúr _does not exist in Hungarian, it's my _ad hoc_ invention for illustration purposes ...


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## er1973

Here are some similar words in Turkish and Hungarian 


Turkish-Hungarian                                   English 
çok->sok                                              many/much
ata->atya                                             predecessor
ana->anya                                            mother
ben->en                                               I
benim->enyem                                     mine
o->o                                                   she/he/it
kim->ki                                               who
kimin->kié                                           whose
de(ama,fakat)->de                                but
kapı->kapu                                          door
sevgi->semmi                                      love
sarı->sarga                                         yellow
omuz->tamasz                                     sholder
yer->ter                                             place
uzun->hosszu                                      long
kısa->kurta                                         short
pis->piszkos                                        dirty
kaplumbağa->teknosbeka (tekno = tekne yani kabuk)    turtle
boğa->bika                                         bull
öküz->ökör                                         ox
tavuk->tyuk                                        chicken
keçi->kecke                                       goat
arslan->oroszlan                                 lion
kuçu(köpek)->kuçu                             dog
koç->kos                                            sheep
köpek->kopó                                     dog
sakal->szakal                                    beard
küçük->kicsi                                      little
alma(elma)->alma                             apple
batur(cesur)->bator                              courageus
ikiz->iker                                          twin
kapak->kupak                                   tap
süz->szür                                         refine
çadır->sator                                     tent
kök->gyök                                       root
bol->bo                                           plentiful
yel->szel                                         wind
kırbaç->korbacs                               whip
tekerlek->kerek (Macarca ve Mogolcada “teker” dönmek anlamına geliyor)          wheel-teker Turkish ------- teker hungarian means steer
biş(çiş)->bis                                                                                               piss
baykus->bagoly                                                                                                    owl
beter->beter (Macarcadaki anlamı “kötü”)öl->öl (macarca’da öldür anlamına geliyor)        bad stuation
çal->csal (hile)                                                                                                      cheat
çarp->csap                                                                                                           ram-hit
dür->tür                                                                                                                    ---- roll
eşmek->es                                                                                                           dig
sayı->szam                                                                                                          number
sek->szök                                                                                                            dry
yas->gyasz                                                                                                          mourning
yoğur->gyur                                                                                                        mix and ram
sür->suruség (firça)                                                                                               spread
süpür->söpör                                                                                                      brush
süpürge->seprü                                                                                                  broom
çevir->csavar                                                                                                     roll
dalga->dagály                                                                                                    wave
halk->hala                                                                                                         people
saç->szor                                                                                                          hair
cici->cici(meme)                                                                                                breast
kız+mak->kis+ál                                                                                                feel angry
kalpak->kalpag                                                                                                  calpac
damga->támga                                                                                                  label-sign
tanıt->tanít (öğretmek)                                                                                       introduce
tanık->tanú                                                                                                       witness
daz->tar                                                                                                           
tarak->taraj                                                                                                     hair brush
tuğrul->turul                                                                                                      goshawk
tümen->tömény                                                                                                division
pamuk->pamut                                                                                                 cotton
yemiş->gyümölcs                                                                                              nut
yüksük->gyüszü                                                                                                thimble
cep->szeb                                                                                                        pocket
var->van                                                                                                         to be
biç->becs                                                                                                        cut
erdem->erdem                                                                                                 virtue
er->úr                                                                                                            male
yurt->jurta                                                                                                      tent-country
kılıç->kard                                                                                                      sword


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## Ben Jamin

er1973 said:


> Here are some similar words in Turkish and Hungarian


Some words seem to be obvious loans like tömény, jurta, korbacs, oroszlan (while "jurta" being most probably loaned directly from Mongol or Tatar, not throughTurkish). Some are discutable, and some are almost certainly only accidental similarity. There are also pairs tham almost certainly have nothing to do whith each other (like yemiş->gyümölcs, where gyümölcs means _fruit _in Hungarian, not _nut, or hal _that means fish_, _not _people)._


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## er1973

To discuss that you have to be educated about Turkish and Origins of Turks.


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## er1973

"There are also pairs tham almost certainly have nothing to do whith each other (like yemiş->gyümölcs, where gyümölcs means _fruit _in Hungarian, not _nut"

This makes more strong connection. Yemiş also means fruit, especially fig in Turkish. _


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## Ben Jamin

er1973 said:


> To discuss that you have to be educated about Turkish and Origins of Turks.


To discuss a common etymology you should give an explanation of how the words originated from a common ancestor. The first you do is to find out what earlier words and word stems they came from, and how they came to sound today as they do. A phonetical similarity alone proves nothing, and by the way, the phonetical similarity itself is dubious in many of your pairs (you would have to explain how the consonants and vowels changed to be what they are now). A very good example is the pair "'tessek' and 'tessekür", very well explained in earlier posts.

By the way, you don't have to have a PhD in old Turkic to discuss etymology.  It is enough if you have  access to both Turkish and Hungarian etymological dictionaries.


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## er1973

Dear Ben Jamin,

The issue is more complex than you expect.

For Example, the word tümen/tömeny comes from  Mao-Tun-Mete-Metehan-Metin, he organized his army by 10 system and tümen means 10.000 soldier unit.
Mao-tun was leader of Asian Huns. For Turks, Turkic Countries and some Turkologists , he is Oghuz Han, epic leader of Turks.


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## franknagy

er1973 said:


> Here are some similar words in Turkish and Hungarian
> 
> 
> Turkish-Hungarian                                   English
> çok->sok                                              many/much
> ata->atya  , apa                                    father [atya is obsolete, used in The Lord's Prayer "Miatyánk"=Our Father"]
> ana->anya                                            mother
> ben->én                                               I
> benim->enyém                                     mine
> o->ő                                                 she/he/it
> kim->ki                                               who
> kimin->kié                                           whose
> de(ama,fakat)->de                                but
> kapı->kapu                                          door
> sevgi->semmi                                      love
> sarı->sárga                                         yellow
> omuz->támasz                                     sholder
> yer->tér                                             place
> uzun->hosszú                                     long
> kısa->kurta                                         short
> küçük_-> kicsi                                     small
> pis->piszkos                                        dirty
> kaplumbağa->teknősbéka (teknő = tekne yani kabuk)    turtle
> boğa->bika                                         bull
> öküz->ökör                                         ox
> tavuk->tyuk                                        chicken
> keçi->kecske                                       goat
> arslan->oroszlán                                 lion (The word "arszlán" means in Hungarian "dude".
> kuçu(köpek)->kutya                            dog
> koç->kos                                           ram
> köpek->kopó                                     dog
> sakal->szakáll                                  beard
> küçük->kicsi                                      little
> alma(elma)->alma                             apple
> batur(cesur)->bátor                              courageus
> ikiz->iker                                          twin
> kapak->kupak                                   tap
> süz->szűr                                         refine
> çadır->sátor                                     tent
> kök->gyök                                       root
> bol->bő                                           plentiful
> yel->szél                                         wind
> kırbaç->korbács                               whip
> tekerlek->kerek (Macarca ve Mogolcada “teker” dönmek anlamına geliyor)          wheel-teker Turkish ------- teker hungarian means steer
> biş(çiş)->bis                                                                                               piss
> baykus->bagoly                                                                                                    owl
> beter->beter (Macarcadaki anlamı “kötü”)öl->öl (macarca’da öldür anlamına geliyor)        bad stuation ????
> çal->csal (hile)                                                                                                      cheat
> çarp->csap                                                                                                           ram-hit
> dür->tür                                                                                                                    ---- roll
> eşmek->es                                                                                                           dig
> sayı->szam                                                                                                          number
> sek->szök                                                                                                            dry
> yas->gyász                                                                                                          mourning
> yoğur->gyur                                                                                                        mix and ram
> sür->sűrűség (firça)                                                                                               density
> süpür->söpör                                                                                                      brush
> süpürge->seprű                                                                                                  broom
> çevir->csavar                                                                                                     roll
> dalga->dagály                                                                                                    Tr. wave, Hun. high tide!
> halk->hala                                                                                                         Tr. people<->Hun. silent!
> saç->szor                                                                                                          hair
> cici->cici(meme)                                                                                                breast
> kız+mak->kis+ál                                                                                                feel angry
> kalpak->kalpag                                                                                                  calpac
> damga->támga                                                                                                  label-sign
> tanıt->tanít (öğretmek)                                                                                       Hun. to teach
> tanık->tanú                                                                                                       witness
> daz->tar
> tarak->taraj                                                                                                     hair brush
> tuğrul->turul                                                                                                      goshawk
> tümen->tömény                                                                                                division
> pamuk->pamut                                                                                                 cotton
> yemiş->gyümölcs                                                                                              nut
> yüksük->gyűszű                                                                                                thimble
> cep->zseb                                                                                                      pocket
> var->van                                                                                                         to be
> biç->becs                                                                                                        cut
> erdem->érdem                                                                                                 virtue
> er->úr                                                                                                            male
> yurt->jurta                                                                                                      tent-country
> kılıç->kard                                                                                                      sword


I have corrected the above list.


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## bardistador

Beter comes from Persian _بدتر_ (bad+tar) bad+der = badder = worse.


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