# By next Tuesday I must be finished with my essay



## cicciocello67

la frase completa è:
By next Tuesday I must be finished with my essay.

Ma non è sbagliata? Non dovrebbe essere "I must have finished"?
Entro martedì prossimo devo aver finito (con) il saggio.

Oppure sono io che sbaglio con la traduzione?

Grazie ciao


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## elfa

Non sei tu che sbagli - la traduzione è quella che indichi - "devo aver finito il saggio".

La costruzione _I must be finished_ non è una che uso - penso sia più in uso comune nell'USA. Nell'UK comunque si direbbe  _I must have finished my essay by next Tuesday._


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## cicciocello67

Ok, vediamo se qualche madrelingua US conferma.
Ciao


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## DavideV

...effettivamente, mi sembra che la forma _must be + pp_ appartiene più ad una forma passiva:

"By next Tuesday my essay must be finished."

Aspettiamo altri interventi - TRex dove sei?


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## Paulfromitaly

elfa said:


> Non sei tu che sbagli - la traduzione è quella che indichi - "devo aver finito il saggio".
> 
> La costruzione _I must be finished_ non è una che uso - penso sia più in uso comune nell'USA. Nell'UK comunque si direbbe  _I must have finished my essay by next Tuesday._



Wouldn't you rather say :_*I must finish *my essay by next Tuesday ?_


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## elfa

Paulfromitaly said:


> Wouldn't you rather say :_*I must finish *my essay by next Tuesday ?_



 Yes, more commonly.


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## dulwich

"By next Tuesday my essay must be finished." 

The subjunctive form in English often sounds strained. A more ntural expression would be "I  must finish my essay by next Tuesday"


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Salute a tutti.
Tanto "I must be finished with my essay" quanto " I must have finished my essay" sono grammaticalmente ineccepibili, e dovrebbe bastare il post di Elfa, che ha dato sempre prova di competenza e pazienza. Esistono forme ormai classiche, di quà e di là dell'Atlantico, del tipo: "Are you finished with your job?", ecc.
Se poi vogliamo andare a cercare di capire quale sia la sottile differenza fra le due—a parità di contenuto proposizionale— potremmo forse avanzare l'ipotesi che mentre "I must have finished my essay" parla del _saggio_, "I must be finished with my essay" parla di _me_. Ma sarebbe una lunga storia...
Cari saluti.
GS


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## vale_new

Ciao!

The deadline for the presentation of the essay is next Tuesday / I'm rushing to meet the deadline for the paper on Tuesday?


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hi, dul,
what do you mean by "subjunctive form" exactly? Your example sentence seems to me to be in the passive...
GS

Hullo, Elfa.
For perfection, as always:
_"...penso sia più in uso comune nell'USA. Nell'UK..."_
"... penso (che) sia più comune negli USA. Nel Regno Unito....".
Anche se, come sai bene, da queste parti non si va troppo per il sottile quando ci si vuole riferire alle Isole Britanniche, noi diciamo spesso soltanto " in Inghilterra". Un'altra possibilità sarebbe quella di dire "in inglese americano" e in "inglese britannico" rispettivamente.
USA invece da noi è plurale e, malauguratamente, lo pronunciamo /uza/.
UK da noi è poco noto. Forse solo come targa sull'automobile. Se chiedi in giro, ben pochi ti sapranno "sciogliere" l'acronimo.
Caramente.
GS


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## dulwich

Hi Giorgio - hai raggione - e' in forma passiva - passive subjunctive.


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## Teerex51

Giorgio Spizzi said:


> UK da noi è poco noto. Forse solo come targa sull'automobile.



[_The sniper has a lock on his target, draws a deep breath and gently squeezes the trigger --- Ka-POW!_]

The UK nationality sticker is actually *GB*.

[_click-clack, reload_]


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## elfa

Grazie, GS - azzeccato come sempre. Di solito metto "negli USA" - non so perchè ho sbagliato oggi. Ha ragione TR, abbiamo GB sulle targhe.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Dio perdona, Tee no.
M'hai già fatto fuori o sono ancora in tempo ad alzare le mani?
Con simpatia.
GS

Hi, dul.
Hope I'm not being too nasty: why subjunctive?
Best.
GS
PS ragione


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## dulwich

Hi Giorgio - thanks for the speling leson - 

"By next Tuesday my essay must be finished." - is in the subjunctive form as it expresses a (strong) need that something "be" done.(The subjiunctive (and imperative to which it is related) in English is normally accomapnied with the bare infinitive) cf. "By next Tuesday my essay has to be finished." The latter is not the subjunctive merely a statement of fact.

Hope this helps clarify it for you.


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## Teerex51

dulwich said:


> Hi Giorgio - thanks for the speling leson -
> 
> "By next Tuesday my essay must be finished." - is in the subjunctive form as it expresses a (strong) need that something "be" done.



Sorry but I share Giorgio's puzzlement here. I see no subjunctive anywhere.

Ah, wait:


_The teacher insisted that the essay be completed by Tuesday._
_It is essential that the essay be completed by Tuesday.
_
_
_
Now I see the subjunctive...


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## dulwich

Essato! 

"God save the King!"


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## cicciocello67

dulwich said:


> Esatto!
> 
> "God save the King!"


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## rrose17

Ok for the North Americans in the crowd, we definitely say ...must be finished as well as ...have to be finished.
I was thinking if you replaced must with "have to" it would make more sense, perhaps.
By next Tuesday I have to be finished with my essay. 
By next Tuesday I have to have finished my essay.


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## elfa

rrose17 said:


> By next Tuesday I have to be finished with my essay.
> By next Tuesday I have to have finished my essay.



Hi rrose,
There are circumstances in which I would use this second sentence...but not the first.


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## dulwich

Rrose - replacing the word 'must" with "have to" not only makes the construction of the sentence more complex but in my view reduces its impact - what could be more simple and direct than: 

"I must finish my essay by next Tuesday" - _Devo finire il mio terna..._


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## elfa

dulwich said:


> Rrose - replacing the word 'must" with "have to" not only makes the construction of the sentence more complex but in my view reduces its impact - what could be more simple and direct than:
> 
> "I must finish my essay by next Tuesday" - _Devo finire il mio terna..._



Hi dulwich,

I think there is a subtle difference between 

_I must finish my essay by next Tuesday_ and _I must be finished with my essay by next Tuesday_, which was the original phrase. 

In the first, the emphasis is on the actions of the speaker (the *I*), in the second, the speaker is responding to an outside force. Or, at least, that is how it seems to me.


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## cicciocello67

Quello che voglio capire io però, indipendentemente dall'uso di "must" o "have to" è la costruzione grammaticale della frase:

By next Tuesday I must/have to be finished with my essay.

Il significato della frase è: io sto facendo in questo momento/periodo un tema/saggio, e devo finirlo entro martedì prossimo, perchè è una scadenza che mi è stata imposta.

Quello che non capisco è l'uso dell'ausiliare to be al posto di to have.

Ciao


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## dulwich

I see what you mean Elfa - I suppose there could be situations where one wishes to express the desire for the state one wishes to be in at a future date (i.e a desire to be in a state of having finished with the essay in this case) - rather than simply stating what needs be done - one for the egocentrics perhaps?


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## Akire72

Ciccioncello, secondo me non c'è alcuna differenza. Mi è capitato di sentirmi dire tutt'e due le cose. Cioè

Are you finished with it?
Have you finished?

Magari di qualcosa che sto facendo o che ho usato (una penna, un quaderno ecc.)


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## dulwich

are you finished with it - in questo caso finished is an adjective

have you finished - in questo caso finished is the the past participle


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## rrose17

Maybe this is for English Only but 
"I must be finished with my essay by next Tuesday." The essay needs to be written, printed, handed in. 
"I must finish my essay by next Tuesday." I need to finish writing it.


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## vale_new

rrose17 said:


> Maybe this is for English Only but
> 1) "I must be finished with my essay by next Tuesday." The essay needs to be written, printed, handed in.
> 2) "I must finish my essay by next Tuesday." I need to finish writing it.


 
Che in italiano sarebbe:

1) devo completare il lavoro/saggio/tesina per martedì 

o anche 

1i) devo aver finito *con* il lavoro/saggio/tesina per martedì

e

2) devo finire (di scrivere) il lavoro/saggio/tesina entro/per martedì

2i) devo aver finito (di scrivere) il lavoro/saggio/tesina entro/per martedì

2ii) devo aver*lo* finito entro/per martedì


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## Paulfromitaly

cicciocello67 said:


> Quello che voglio capire io però, indipendentemente dall'uso di "must" o "have to" è la costruzione grammaticale della frase:
> 
> By next Tuesday I must/have to be finished with my essay.
> 
> Il significato della frase è: io sto facendo in questo momento/periodo un tema/saggio, e devo finirlo entro martedì prossimo, perchè è una scadenza che mi è stata imposta.
> 
> Quello che non capisco è l'uso dell'ausiliare to be al posto di to have.
> 
> Ciao



When I'm gone/finished
when I am finished my study
I/I'm finished
finish - be finished
am finished/have finished
Are you finished?
"I'm done" vs. "I'm finished"
"to be done" versus "to be finished" - I'm done, I'm finished


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## dulwich

In English the present perfect is normally formed using the auxiliary "to have" however in limited cases "to be" can also be used come Italiano - (although now considered archaic)"

e.g. "I feel thou art not gone"  = I feel you have not gone


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## rrose17

Why? You wouldn't say in a non-archaic way _I feel you aren't gone_?


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## GavinW

dulwich said:


> are you finished with it - in questo caso finished is an adjective
> 
> have you finished - in questo caso finished is the the past participle


 
Well said. That needed to be set out clearly.



Paulfromitaly said:


> When I'm gone/finished
> when I am finished my study
> I/I'm finished
> finish - be finished
> am finished/have finished
> Are you finished?
> "I'm done" vs. "I'm finished"
> "to be done" versus "to be finished" - I'm done, I'm finished


 
A useful reminder that WR has a wonderful database of previous threads and examples!


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## dulwich

Rrose - in your example above - which adopts modern usage - "gone" is an adjective not a verb (in that it describes the state of being - the understandable confusion lies in the fact that past participles are often used as adjectives It would be the same as saying "Ï feel you are not besotted with me or I sense you are not satisfied" In both these cases besotted and satisfied are again adjectives.


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## Akire72

dulwich said:


> are you finished with it - in questo caso finished is an adjective
> 
> have you finished - in questo caso finished is the the past participle


 

Not quite. 
In the first case finished is a *copula* because the verb is intransitive, while in the second it is the past participle because the verb is transitive (has an implied objet, it).


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## dulwich

Back to school Akire - in the first case the verb 'to be ' is the copula although it is unspoken ("he/she" *is *finished with it or "he/she" *is* not finished with it) in this case the word "finished" is an adjective. cf. "Are you happy with it?" Are you telling me "happy" is a copula?


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hi, dul.
Spellingwise I'm at your disposal anytime: thanks for the spelling lesson.
Grammarwise, I'm glad you rejoyced at Tee's two sentences. _They_ contain an English subjunctive; your sentences are "modalized" sentences, ie sentences where the use of a "modal auxiliary"(in your case deontic "must") conveys the attitude of the speaker towards the realization of the facts represented in the sentence.
Best.
GS


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## Sandrokkio

I agree with Dulwich!! If I've gotten it right, the American form:

"I am finished with it"

is a construction with subj+copula+adj. which could sound in Italian like: "*Sono a posto* con questa cosa/ho terminato", while the British equivalent:

"I have finished"

sounds like: "Ho finito".
Are we finished?!


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## dulwich

Segonda me abbiamo fatto questa soggetto a morte!


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