# Changing fuS7a/MSA to sound like colloquial



## Ruskoyazichniy

I read a discussion where the use of Fusha in daily speech was discussed. From that discussion I understood that any type of coloquil speech is preferable to Fusha.

If the main source of my arabic knowledge is from MSA books, is there a way of using MSA arabic so that it sounds more acceptable? What I mean is using shorter sentences rather than longer ones, using question words like fein, shou, laish, qadesh instead of ayna, madha, limadha, mataa.

instead of saying of sying adhhabu ilaa lbayt, say something like aruh 3albayt.

All this changes are easy enough to make. The hardest thing is learnig a new way to pronounce the same words. For example, instead of kibaar pronounce kbaar or glotal stop instead of q sound.

My question is: can Fusha be used with some minor modification to the choice of words to provide a way of communication that would not be out of place on the street?


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## Mahaodeh

Regarding your question: of course! That's how colloquial came to be and it's not uncommon for native speakers to do that. It's also quite common for native speakers to use fus7a in between sentences.
 
Don't worry about the pronunciation of q; personally, I can use any one of them (glottal stop, g sound, k sound or a proper qaaf) in my speech and they are all perfectly understandable. There are also several dialects that use a proper qaaf so you don't really need to change it.
 
I personally also disagree with those that say that fus7a is weird; just don't use expressions that are "too eloquent" and you'll be fine. Another option is to drop the case endings, which makes it sound very much less fus7a.
 
You should also note that foreigners can easily get away with “uncommon” modes of speech, be it fus7a or bad grammar or bad pronunciation or all combined, people generally understand that Arabic is a difficult language and they understand the special case of having fus7a and dialects in the language.


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## Abu Rashid

Although I'm well aware of the desire to sound natural, especially if buying things in Arabic countries, it's a necessity.

It's strange that someone would want to sound less eloquent though. Fus7a is the most eloquent form of the Arabic language, you should strive to use it more, rather than to 'water it down' to 3amiyyah (which means common/vulgar language). Unless you have a legitimate reason for wanting to sound more natural, ie. so as not to be over-charged in taxis etc. that's about the only time I ever try to use 3amiyyah, or with very young (pre-school) kids, who wouldn't know a word of fus7a.


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## WadiH

Abu Rashid said:


> It's strange that someone would want to sound less eloquent though. Fus7a is the most eloquent form of the Arabic language



I can't speak for other dialects, but I can say with absolute certainty that the speech of my father and grandfather's generation is much more eloquent than MSA (aka "fus7a").  It's a shame that more work wasn't done to record and document the traditional dialects of Arabia, where 2 or 3 words are often more expressive than entire paragraphs of MSA, and which retain far more of the spirit of Classical Arabic than MSA.  Within a few years, much of that heritage will have been lost.

As for the OP's question, it's not that hard to do (and you seem to know what you need to do already).  Here's what you should focus on:

1- drop the case endings (you probably do that already).
2- learn the basic words for "do", "go", "want", "why", "where", "what", and the like
3- avoid ليس and لم-type constructions and use ما-type constructions instead
4- turn your verbs from the form "ya3fal" to "yif3al" and "taf3al" to "tif3al"
5- try to change your glottal stops into ي or و (if you know how)
6- you don't really need to drop your MSA phonemes, except maybe the "qaf"

The rest you will pick up over time.


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## Abu Rashid

Wadi Hanifa,

I personally don't like the term MSA, it's an English term that has little relevance to Arabic. If your forefathers were speaking a dialect which is classical Arabic, then I'd consider it a form of fus7a, not that my opinion means much, but it would've been included in the category of eloquent fus7a Arabic that I was referring to.


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## WadiH

Abu Rashid said:


> Wadi Hanifa,
> 
> I personally don't like the term MSA, it's an English term that has little relevance to Arabic. If your forefathers were speaking a dialect which is classical Arabic, then I'd consider it a form of fus7a, not that my opinion means much, but it would've been included in the category of eloquent fus7a Arabic that I was referring to.



I don't think that Arabian dialects, even in their most traditional form, would fall within your conception of "fus7a."


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## Abu Rashid

Well nobody really knows the true history of how fus7a and the other dialects came to be. But perhaps the most accepted theory is that fus7a was just a dialect, the one which the Qur'an was revealed in, which therefore became standardised and frozen exactly as it was 1400 years ago. In this case, then the other dialects which were it's peers would be just more developed versions of the same thing pretty much.

I think there is a theory which also states that fus7a was actually a lingua franca for the Arabic tribes to be used in poetry festivals and such, and therefore has always existed seperately from the other dialects..

Either way, fus7a has been artifically preserved and standardised for the past 1400 years, be that good or bad I don't know, but Islamically speaking, it's considered to have been chosen divinely... so that's what I'll stick with. But each to his own.

Perhaps you can make some effort to preserve the dialect of your forefathers, create a blog, an online database with recordings etc. Why not if that interests you. I'd certainly be interested in reading about it.


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## Mahaodeh

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I can't speak for other dialects, but I can say with absolute certainty that the speech of my father and grandfather's generation is much more eloquent than MSA (aka "fus7a"). It's a shame that more work wasn't done to record and document the traditional dialects of Arabia, where 2 or 3 words are often more expressive than entire paragraphs of MSA, and which retain far more of the spirit of Classical Arabic than MSA. Within a few years, much of that heritage will have been lost.


 
I don't want to disagree with your statement that your grandparent's generation were eloquent in their dialect, I'm sure there were indeed very eloquent; but I find it hard to believe that it was more eloquent that fus7a, I would have to say that it is more that people nowadays do not really know how to use fus7a than the fact that it's less eloquent. In fus7a, too, you can say things in two words that would otherwise require sentences.

I may be "fus7a biased" )), but to date I have not found any colloquial poetry, as an example, that even compares to the ones written in fus7a.


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## WadiH

The problem is that you confuse Arabic in its classical phase with the newspaper Arabic of today.  Sure, Classical Arabic was very beautiful and eloquent, and the speech that you find in the Arabian desert is nothing but the direct descendant of that Classical Arabic that you so enjoy (or Old Arabic if you want to be pedantic).  But a language is only as good as the people who speak it, and the MSA which we know today is not the same as Classical Arabic.  The grammar of MSA maybe technically "correct" by the standards of Classical Arabic, but that grammar is only a subset of the ancient grammar.  Similarly, the vocabulary of MSA may be largely derived from Classical Arabic, but it only *uses* (I repeat *uses*) a small subset of that vocabulary, and in fact actively rejects the rich vocabulary that the dialects have inherited from Classical Arabic.  It's not grammar and vocabulary that make a language eloquent; it's a language's ***usage*** that does so.  That's why I am not as eloquent as my grandmother or my uncle even though I speak the same dialect as they do -- I never learned to *use* it the way they do.

Think of Arabic as a guitar.  Now that guitar will sound one way in the hands of Jimmi Hendrix, but it will sound much less impressive in the hands of the busker at the nearby metro station.  Now, let's take the metaphor a step further.  Let's say you're born 1500 years pass since Hendrix's death, and the only record of his playing that is available to you is a couple of CD's that make up only 0.1% of the notes that he ever played, which include not just his albums, but his concerts, his jams with his friends, and his noodling at home.  That 0.1% is MSA.  Now, from those two CD's (i.e. the 0.1%), would you ever be able to recreate Hendrix's virtuosity?

In fact, the situation for Arabic is much worse, because we have no real sound recordings.  We have writings that only give us part of the information we need to know about how the language was spoken.  I guess it's like being given the tablature of Hendrix's songs rather than the musical notation or the CD's.


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## Andrew___

Wadi Hanifa said:


> 1- drop the case endings (you probably do that already).
> 2- learn the basic words for "do", "go", "want", "why", "where", "what", and the like
> 3- avoid ليس and لم-type constructions and use ما-type constructions instead
> 4- turn your verbs from the form "ya3fal" to "yif3al" and "taf3al" to "tif3al"
> 5- try to change your glottal stops into ي or و (if you know how)
> 6- you don't really need to drop your MSA phonemes, except maybe the "qaf"
> 
> The rest you will pick up over time.



Hi Wadi,

What wonderful and succinct advice!  This is a beautiful summary of the rules for the *White Language*.  If you do a search on the forum, you will find more posts discussing the White Language.

I am a big fan of the White Language, and insha'allah in 200 years time, the concept of the White Language will be well known amongst many teachers who want to take a more natural approach to the Arabic language without throwing away fuS7a.  

The reason I say this is because there is only so much time before students internationally will become frustrated and revolt against learning a language for 3 years and struggling desperately to understand basic conversations in daily life.  These students will not need to resort to the desperate strategy of Lawrence of Arabia and throw away MSA to embrace the 3ammiyya of the 7ijaz (which we know he did because his written correspondence was in 7ijaz 3ammiyya not in MSA).

We are a voice and a movement that is growing, and we will one day raise high the light of the White Language! 

Andrew


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## elroy

I just want to say that I agree with Wadi Hanifa, and that I emphatically disagree with the notion that fus7a is inherently more eloquent than colloquial Arabic.  As Wadi Hanifa said, it depends on the speaker, and I know many people whose Palestinian Arabic is extremely eloquent.  Speaking fus7a does not automatically make you more eloquent; on the contrary, I would imagine (and I can only say "I would imagine" because in practice Arabs do not use fus7a on a daily basis) that it would be quite hard to sound eloquent in fus7a as there would be a certain degree of artificiality resulting from the fact that fus7a is nobody's native language.  As Abu Rashid intimated, the eloquence that is attributed to fus7a is in many cases a by-product of the religious importance it has for many.


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## Josh_

I also agree that there is nothing inherently more eloquent about fusHa than there is about the dialects.

As far as the OP's question is considered, if you are interested there are two books that deal with this type of Arabic -- a somewhat watered down or simplified version of MSA -- which the authors call "Formal Spoken Arabic" -- I prefer this term to the so-called term "The White Language" (sorry Andrew).  

The books are:

"Focus on Contemporary Arabic (أضواء على العربية العصرية)" by Shukri B. Abed

"Formal Spoken Arabic" by Karyn Ryding

I can only talk about the the first book, as that is the only one I have.  The focus of that book is to expose learners to the spontaneous, unrehearsed use of the language by native speakers.  Many of the things that Wadi Hanifa listed (as well as some others) are explained in the book as being characteristic of Formal Spoken Arabic.

From reading reviews of Ryding's book it seems to be fairly similar.


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## xebonyx

That's interesting that everyone agrees with altering Fus7a to better fit in with colloquial speech, because I've been told by different people that it just sounds plain strange ("unnatural" Fus7a, if you will). 

So I guess it depends on who you're talking to and one's personal bias regarding their preferences as to which one sounds "more eloquent" to them (fus7a vs. colloquial), and has nothing to do with the wrongness of mixing fus7a and colloquial together. This also fits into the idea of those who say that "Palestinian/Tunisian/Moroccan/etc Arabic" doesn't exist or make sense, but rather those things are just "Palestinian" or "Tunisian" and the actual word "Arabic" stands by itself as an exclusive term.


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## WadiH

Well, I think there is a subtle difference between what I am saying and what Josh and elroy are saying.  I don't think all languages or dialects "are created equal."  I just think that MSA is distinct from Classical Arabic, and that MSA is not an especially eloquent form of speech.


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## xebonyx

I wasn't really focusing on the aspect of dialects, that wasn't the point I was making. I was just adding that some take a moral/purist standpoint with MSA (or they will dub it simply "Arabic") by saying it is distinct from the dialects, by not attaching the word Arabic to it, based on finding dialects to be a crude way of speaking. And how I've come across many who disagree with fine-tuning MSA to facilitate natural, more colloquial sounding speech.

Also when talking about political context(s)--cross national unification, Pan Arabism-- MSA can be regarded as the only kind of speech that ties everyone together, creating a uniform language. This was the only point I was making based on observances and how people have varied opinions on the issue, which enable them to make statements regarding what they think quality speech is.


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## Ruskoyazichniy

Thanks to everyone for your advice, I will try to locate the referenced books.

I must admit that it has been alittle bit frustrating learning arabic, I have spent about 3 or 4 years learning it from books, and I can read reasonably well, but to my disapointment communication is still very difficult.

I believe that when I was learning english, it was much faster, at least when I could read on the same level as I do Arabic, I could speak with much greater ease. Although if I think of it, I was living in English speaking country


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## WadiH

If you can afford it, you could try getting a satellite dish that picks up Arabic stations.  A news network like Al-Jazeera (or any other channel if you don't like Al-Jazeera) would expose you to Arabic that is intermediate between formal MSA and spoken Arabic (though closer to MSA), while other channels can give you a more colloquial form of speech that still has many MSA features.


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## abushamil

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I can't speak for other dialects, but I can say with absolute certainty that the speech of my father and grandfather's generation is much more eloquent than MSA (aka "fus7a"). It's a shame that more work wasn't done to record and document the traditional dialects of Arabia, where 2 or 3 words are often more expressive than entire paragraphs of MSA, and which retain far more of the spirit of Classical Arabic than MSA. Within a few years, much of that heritage will have been lost.
> 
> As for the OP's question, it's not that hard to do (and you seem to know what you need to do already). Here's what you should focus on:
> 
> 1- drop the case endings (you probably do that already).
> 2- learn the basic words for "do", "go", "want", "why", "where", "what", and the like
> 3- avoid ليس and لم-type constructions and use ما-type constructions instead
> 4- turn your verbs from the form "ya3fal" to "yif3al" and "taf3al" to "tif3al"
> 5- try to change your glottal stops into ي or و (if you know how)
> 6- you don't really need to drop your MSA phonemes, except maybe the "qaf"
> 
> The rest you will pick up over time.


 
Salam Wadi,

This is a very good and practical advise. Can you give examples for No.5 and for No.6 , would it sound too "fus7a" if we maintain the original qaf?

Thank you and Salam again


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## Andrew___

Also can we add to the list:

*7.  Add "b" when conjugating the present tense, where appropriate.*

I'm not sure how many dialects add "b" when conjugating the present tense (in appropriate situations such as habitual actions), but I am guessing that it is most of them.


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## Abu Rashid

> This is a very good and practical advise. Can you give examples for No.5 and for No.6 , would it sound too "fus7a" if we maintain the original qaf?


as-salaamu alaykum abushamil,

I use qaf most of the time, and it usually isn't a problem. When it's in the middle of a word, like "musta2bel" which should be "mustaqbel" then it sounds almost the same anyway. But if it's a word like "da2i2a" which should be "daqiqah" then it really changes the whole shape of the word, and I find people are more thrown off by it. However, once they realise you pronounce qaf, then it wouldn't be a problem for them at all.

Also another suggestion might be to use the slightly softer "gaf" which is used in many gulf and bedouin dialects from Egypt to Jordan. Since "qaf" has some effects on other letters that follow it, especially "alef", it makes words sound very different, "gaf" does not though, it is more like hamza. a good example is "qaala" (he said). 2al and gal sound very similar, qaala does not.


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## jonquiliser

Wadi Hanifa said:


> If you can afford it, you could try getting a satellite dish that picks up Arabic stations.  A news network like Al-Jazeera (or any other channel if you don't like Al-Jazeera) would expose you to Arabic that is intermediate between formal MSA and spoken Arabic (though closer to MSA), while other channels can give you a more colloquial form of speech that still has many MSA features.



Good thing there are a lot of videos available online; Al-Jazeera for example have their own Youtube channel 


Andrew___ said:


> Also can we add to the list:
> 
> *7.  Add "b" when conjugating the present tense, where appropriate.*
> 
> I'm not sure how many dialects add "b" when conjugating the present tense (in appropriate situations such as habitual actions), but I am guessing that it is most of them.


May I ask, does this -b- apply to all persons in the present tense? Does it replace the fusHa personal prefixes or is it added to the conjugated form? How would for example "yaktub" be conjugated?


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## Abu Rashid

> How would for example "yaktub" be conjugated?


yaktub is not a good example, because it undergoes other changes in most dialects also, and becomes biyiktib. But basically you just put 'bi' on the front of the verb, leaving all other markers in place.

bashrab (I drink)
biyashrab (he drinks)
bitashrab (she drinks)
binashrab  (we drink)
biyashrabu (they drink)


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## clevermizo

Andrew___ said:


> Also can we add to the list:
> 
> *7.  Add "b" when conjugating the present tense, where appropriate.*
> 
> I'm not sure how many dialects add "b" when conjugating the present tense (in appropriate situations such as habitual actions), but I am guessing that it is most of them.



It is not most of them. Only really the dialects of the Levant and Egypt do this (and interestingly enough, I believe also the dialect of Arabic spoken in northeastern Nigeria). The b- prefix has a future meaning (I believe) in the peninsula, and the present prefix in the Maghreb is k-, and plenty of dialects use no prefix at all.

Once you start adding in these sorts of nuances, you are losing sight of the original plan this thread seems to have about a totally neutral mode of speech. You may as well not use any prefix on the present tense, although I'm perfectly happy using a prefix because I'm not trying to create a monolithic artificial spoken Arabic for myself.


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## WadiH

clevermizo said:


> It is not most of them. Only really the dialects of the Levant and Egypt do this (and interestingly enough, I believe also the dialect of Arabic spoken in northeastern Nigeria). The b- prefix has a future meaning (I believe) in the peninsula, and the present prefix in the Maghreb is k-, and plenty of dialects use no prefix at all.



The urban Hejazi dialect (Mecca/Medina/Jeddah) uses b- in almost the same way as in Egypt, and uses 7a- for the future (again, much like Egypt).  I consider the dialects of Egypt, Sudan, and the urban Hejaz to form one family.

EDIT: Also, the Baghdadi dialect uses da- for the present tense.


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## Abu Rashid

> I consider the dialects of Egypt, Sudan, and the urban Hejaz to form one family.



When in Hijaz I noticed quite a few similarities to Egyptian also. They use fein for instance.


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## WadiH

Abu Rashid said:


> When in Hijaz I noticed quite a few similarities to Egyptian also. They use fein for instance.



Yes, and there are many other similarities.  But you have to bear in mind that outside of Mecca, Jeddah, and Medina, the dialects of Hejaz are very different (though I'm sure they've become influenced by Jeddah and Mecca in recent years).


Andrew___ said:


> Also can we add to the list:
> 
> *7.  Add "b" when conjugating the present tense, where appropriate.*
> 
> I'm not sure how many dialects add "b" when conjugating the present tense (in appropriate situations such as habitual actions), but I am guessing that it is most of them.



My aim was to give the minimum changes you would have to make so that you don't sound "too fusHa."  That's why I deliberately left this change out, since it's only used in a few countries, and even in those countries, they are accustomed to other Arabic speakers not using this feature.


abushamil said:


> This is a very good and practical advise. Can you give examples for No.5 and for No.6 , would it sound too "fus7a" if we maintain the original qaf?


Sure.

Regarding the glottal stop, here are some examples:
مائل --> مايل
عمائر --> عماير
But, you know, now that I think of it, this may not be necessary to worry about.  You should be fine if you preserve all your glottal stops, since you're expected to so in words that are borrowed from MSA anyway.

As for the 'qaf', again you're usually expected to preserve it in words borrowed from MSA like ثقافة, مستقبل, مقاطعة, قانون, etc.  Some dialects use 'qaf' throughout, but it's restricted to certain provincial areas.  Certainly, if you want to preserve your 'qafs' throughout, it wouldn't be a big deal for most people.  Otherwise, I would suggest using 'gaf'.  Some people in places like Damascus, Beirut, and Cairo may view it as provincial or "bedouin", but the advantage is that there is no country in the Arab world where people would be unfamiliar with the 'gaf' usage.


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## jonquiliser

Abu Rashid, thanks for the conjugation pattern.

Very interesting to see there are so many varieties to prefixes and their different uses (present, habitual, future...)


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## IsmaelGeorge

Wadi Hanifa said:


> 4- turn your verbs from the form "ya3fal" to "yif3al" and "taf3al" to "tif3al"


Can you give us some examples of conjugated verbs in 3rd person oof singular. I think it's a good idea to make more easy the MSA closer to a "middle arabic" or "arabian dialects". Thanks!!


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## WadiH

IsmaelGeorge said:


> Can you give us some examples of conjugated verbs in 3rd person oof singular. I think it's a good idea to make more easy the MSA closer to a "middle arabic" or "arabian dialects". Thanks!!



أحمد يدرس في الجامعة
_aHmad yidrus fi'ljaam3ah


_أحمد يمشي ساعة في اليوم
_aHmad yimshii saa3ah fi'lyom_


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## IsmaelGeorge

Shukran sahbi Wadi Hanifa!

you say "yidrus" instead of "yadrusu"? "yaktub" ainstead of "yaktubu"?

I grew up in northern Morocco (Sebta) and learned and in the street (because it's a spanish city and we have the school in spanish) And when I watch arabic TV barely understand a little. Because we the arabic we speak here is very different from MSA. For example, the verb tenses. In "Maghrebiya" We Have only past, present and future but not 3 present like MSA (jussive, indicative and subjunctive moods). When we study all its variations is a bit difficult and slow for us at the time of speaking. Its better to use only one mood to simplify the time to talk? jussive mood is like indicative but simplified. We should use this type of conjugation so we do it easier? Or would be very poor to the ears of a mashreqi arab speaker?

Salam 3likum!!


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## WadiH

IsmaelGeorge said:


> Shukran sahbi Wadi Hanifa!
> 
> you say "yidrus" instead of "yadrusu"? "yaktub" ainstead of "yaktubu"?



yidrus, yiktub (I actually say, yiktib, but don't worry about that)



> I grew up in northern Morocco (Sebta) and learned and in the street (because it's a spanish city and we have the school in spanish) And when I watch arabic TV barely understand a little. Because we the arabic we speak here is very different from MSA. For example, the verb tenses. In "Maghrebiya" We Have only past, present and future but not 3 present like MSA (jussive, indicative and subjunctive moods). When we study all its variations is a bit difficult and slow for us at the time of speaking. Its better to use only one mood to simplify the time to talk? jussive mood is like indicative but simplified. We should use this type of conjugation so we do it easier? Or would be very poor to the ears of a mashreqi arab speaker?
> 
> Salam 3likum!!



These "mood markers" are not used in any spoken dialect of Arabic.  Even in MSA, they are often treated as optional.  So, you can treat all present tense verbs as though they were "majzuum" (jussive) at all times.


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## إسكندراني

I don't know what you guys mean by mood markers, is there an example?


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## IsmaelGeorge

Wadi Hanifa said:


> yidrus, yiktub (I actually say, yiktib, but don't worry about that)



We say here "nekteb" 1st, "tekteb" 2nd, "yekteb" 3rd...

Shukran bezzaf khuya Wadi Hanifa! Shukran jazzilan!  i will take yours examples as reference. Salam 3lik!


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## Abu Rashid

إسكندراني said:


> I don't know what you guys mean by mood markers, is there an example?



العراب


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## إسكندراني

Oh الإعراب like the final vowels? Yeah, most people ignore those when speaking.


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## IsmaelGeorge

Shukran li el sher7!! (thanks for the explanation)


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