# trouw, vertrouwen (loyalty, trust)



## ThomasK

I am just wondering how you translate both terms *trouw* [_*aan*/ *to*_ a person mainly](faithfulness, loyalty)/ *vertrouwen* [confidence], as there is a link in Dutch, but there is no reason to suppose there is a link in other and especially non-Germanic languages. 

English : *loyalty/ trust* (there might be link with _*betrothal*_, I was told)

German: _Treue/ Vertrauen_ (they seem linked)


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## bibax

Czech:

*věrnost* + dat. (like in German: _jemandem die Treue halten_);

*důvěra v* + acc. (like in German: _das Vertrauen in Euro_)

both words from *víra*, *věřiti* (_Glaube, glauben_);


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## ThomasK

Is that 'Glaube' as belief, Bibax, or as faith? One can translate 'Vertrauen' as 'faith' - or does it refer to believing something is true? (Of course there is some link, as is suggested by 'truth' and 'trust, I think:  the same: 



> Related to O.E. _treowian_ "to believe, trust," and _treowe_ "faithful, trusty"


 
I find something else there about the meaning: 


> "faithfulness, quality of being true,". Meaning "accuracy, correctness" is from 1560s. Noun sense of [a truth] "something that is true" is first recorded mid-14c.


So I guess you will be referring to 'Glaube' as faith. And BTW: I read once that printing led to a different, more objective form of truth, not - or no longer - based on the relationship with the person...


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## sakvaka

A little *Finnish* for a while.

*uskollisuus* - faithfulness
Deriv. usko (faith) + -llinen ('equipped with') + -suus ('ness')

_Ihailijani ovat uskollisia minulle._
My admirers are faithful to me.

_Oletko sinä ollut minulle uskoton?_
Have you been unfaithful to me?

*Lojaali* - loyal has multiple meanings, according to J. Korpela's online dictionary 

"*lojaali* uskollinen, luotettava; velvollisuudentuntoinen; lainkuuliainen"
"*loyal* faithful, reliable; feeling a sense of duty; loyal to the law"

For example 
_Työntekijöiden lojaliteetti kärsii, jos he kertovat yhtiön salaisuuksia ulkopuolisille._ 
The employees' loyalty goes down if they tell company secrets to outsiders.

*luottamus* - trust, confidence
Deriv. luottaa (trust) + -mus (noun dericating suffix)

_En luota häneen enää pätkän vertaa!_
I don't trust him at all anymore!

_Turha yrittää pyytää anteeksi; petit luottamukseni kerran, ja se riittää._
It's no use asking for an apology; you let me down ('my trust') once and that's enough.


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## Orlin

Some Slavic languages:
- Bulgarian: лоялност, вярност = faithfulness, доверие = trust.
- Russian: лояльность, верность* = faithfulness, доверие = trust.
*(Not completely sure).
Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian: lojalnost, v(j)ernost = faithfulness, pov(j)erenje = trust.
All "domestic" words derive from "faith", for "faithfulness" both Slavic and loanwords are used.


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## ThomasK

Finnish: no link with truth, I guess (is that _totuus_ ?).

Slavic: do I discern a similar root 'ver', as in Czech (#2)? I don't know whether you can tell me if it has to do with belief (that something is true)' or faith (in someone)...


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## Orlin

ThomasK said:


> Finnish: no link with truth, I guess (is that _totuus_ ?).
> 
> Slavic: do I discern a similar root 'ver', as in Czech (#2)? I don't know whether you can tell me if it has to do with belief (that something is true)' or faith (in someone)...


The common Slavic root "ver" has both mentioned meanings but here the latter meaning is used.


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> Finnish: no link with truth, I guess (is that _totuus_ ?).



Indeed there isn't.


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## jazyk

In Portuguese:

faithful = fiel
faithfulness = fidelidade (related to fé, faith)
loyal = leal
loyalty = lealdade
trust (noun) = confiança
trust (ver) = confiar

Confiar, from Latin confidere, related to fides, which gave us fé and English faith.


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## bibax

Slavic *věra* originally meant _truth, Wahrheit, veritas_ and is related to Latin _verus_ and German _wahr_. The word *věra* was taken to mean 'religious (Christian) faith' (9th cent., St. Constantine & Method?) and lost the original meaning 'truth' (= now *pravda* from adj. *pravý* = _right, recht_, whence also *právo* = _das Recht_).
However the adjective *věrný* means 1) faithful (e.g. _faithful friend_) 2) true, accurate, exact (like in _true copy_). Hence the noun *věrnost* meaning 1) faithfulness 2) high similarity of a copy to its original (like in vysoká věrnost zvuku = high fidelity of sound "hifi").

All Slavic words mentioned by Orlin are from the same root *věr-*.


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## francisgranada

Hungarian

*hű* - faithful, loyal
*hűség* - fidelty, loyalty
*hűséges* - faithful (especially to a person, wife, husband ...)
etc.

*bízni* - to trust, to have confidence
*bizalom -* trust, confidence
*bizalmas -* confidential, intimate 
*megbízható* - trustworthy, reliable
etc.

There are two different stems, _hű_ and _biz_

An observation:
The first group (hű) is related also to *hinni* (=to beleive), so one is loyal to someone when he "believes in" him
The second group (biz) is related also to *biztos* (=sure), so one trusts in someone whom he thinks to be "sure of"


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

*Faith*: «Πίστη» ('pisti _f._); from the Classical third declension feminine noun «πίστις» ('pīstīs)-->_faith, trustworthiness, credence_, from archaic «πίθτις» ('pītʰtīs _f._), from PIE base *bʰeidʰ-, _obey, believe_.
*Faithful*: «Έμπιστος, -στη, -στο» (_adj._ 'embistos _m._/'embisti _f._/'embisto _n._), compound formed with the joining together of the prefix and preposition «ἐν» (ĕn)-->_in, within_ + feminine noun «πίστις» ('pīstīs)-->_faith, trustworthiness, credence_. Folkish: «Μπιστικός, μπιστική, μπιστικό» (mbisti'kos _m._/mbisti'ci _f._/mbisti'ko _n._).
*Faithfulness*: «Εμπιστοσύνη» (embisto'sini _f._). Probably a Byzantine constructed noun.
*Loyalty*: «Πίστη» ('pisti _f._); from the Classical third declension feminine noun «πίστις» ('pīstīs)-->_faith, trustworthiness, credence_, from archaic «πίθτις» ('pītʰtīs _f._), from PIE base *bʰeidʰ-, _obey, believe_.
*Loyal*: «Πιστός, -στή, -στό» (_adj._ pis'tos _m._/pis'ti _f._/pis'to _n._) from the same Classical adjective which described the _trusty, trustworthy, loyal_.
*Trust (noun)*: «Εμπιστοσύνη» (embisto'sini _f._); Byzantine feminine noun «ἐμπιστοσύνη» (empisto'sini).
*Trust (verb)*: «Εμπιστεύομαι» (embi'stevome); middle voice of the Classical verb «ἐμπιστεύω» (ĕmpīs'teuō)-->_to entrust, trust in, give credence to_.
*Trustful*: «Έμπιστος, -στη, -στο» (_adj._ 'embistos _m._/'embisti _f._/'embisto _n._), compound formed with the joining together of the prefix and preposition «ἐν» (ĕn)-->_in, within_ + feminine noun «πίστις» ('pīstīs)-->_faith, trustworthiness, credence_. Folkish: «Μπιστικός, μπιστική, μπιστικό» (mbisti'kos _m._/mbisti'ci _f._/mbisti'ko _n._).


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## ThomasK

So I see "*Πίστη*" everywhere, I notice, and I see that you can establish a link with a PIE base meaning both obeying and believing. Well, obeying is new in this connection to me, but it opens an interesting perspective, for sure. 

But I'd like to invite you to tell me: do you see some basic etymological meaning? Somehow there seems to be a hint towards some kind of truth (believe), which - I make a guess - is the basis of faith, and thus of loyalty and confidence. 

I had a look at my Finnish mini-mini-dictionary and happened to find that there is a word *'luoto'*, cliff. Could that be the key word? I was associating that with rock and then thought confidence can be like a rock. But I am good at wild guesses. I might be quite, quite wrong. Just venturing upon a hypothesis.


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> So I see "*Πίστη*" everywhere, I notice, and I see that you can establish a link with a PIE base meaning both obeying and believing. Well, obeying is new in this connection to me, but it opens an interesting perspective, for sure.
> 
> But I'd like to invite you to tell me: do you see some basic etymological meaning? Somehow there seems to be a hint towards some kind of truth (believe), which - I make a guess - is the basis of faith, and thus of loyalty and confidence


In the ancient language, «πίστις» stood for trust. What in other languages is translated as "faith" e.g. in the Christian scripture, in the Koine Greek, the word is «πίστις» (trust). When the Hellenistic Greeks read in the Gospels (Christ's words): «ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμέ», they understood "he that trusteth in me". Slowly though, «πίστις» altered its meaning and came to describe solely "faith". And for "trust", a new word was constructed, «ἐμπιστοσύνη», probably after the feminine noun «ἐμπίστευσις» (empisteusis)-->_trusteeship_ (come to think of it, in order to trust a trustee, you ought to have faith in that person's abilities, honesty, loyalty etc)


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## sakvaka

ThomasK said:


> I had a look at my Finnish mini-mini-dictionary and happened to find that there is a word *'luoto'*, cliff. Could that be the key word? I was associating that with rock and then thought confidence can be like a rock. But I am good at wild guesses. I might be quite, quite wrong. Just venturing upon a hypothesis.



That's a very good observation because we Finns have the expression _kivenkova luottamus_ - a stone-hard confidence. I also have to point out that _Luoto_ is actually a cliff/rock/small island on a lake or a sea, just like the one in this photo.

But my etymological dictionary (Häkkinen 2004) doesn't mention any connection. _Luoto_ is either original or a Germanic expression whereas _luottaa_ is most likely a derivation of _luoda_ (create) or _luo-_ (a stem indicating proximity).


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## ThomasK

_Rotsvast vertrouwen_: yes, we know that kind of 'rocky' confidence too...Too bad though ;-). _[But the other links are interesting too (though I cannot see a link with German or Germanic, but no side thread here!]_


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## DearPrudence

jazyk said:


> In Portuguese:
> 
> faithful = fiel
> faithfulness = fidelidade (related to fé, faith)
> loyal = leal
> loyalty = lealdade
> trust (noun) = confiança
> trust (ver) = confiar
> 
> Confiar, from Latin confidere, related to fides, which gave us fé and English faith.


Same in French again:
*faithful = fidèle
faithfulness = la fidélité
loyal = loyal
loyalty = la loyauté
trust (noun) = la confiance
trust (ver) = faire confiance à quelqu'un*


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## ThomasK

I don't whether loyalty and faithfulness are perfect synonyms, right now. I checked some sites and it does not become clear. Can anyone help here ?


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## mataripis

Tagalog: Truth=Katotohanan, Truthfulness= pagiging tunay, Faith= Pananampalataya(from Devanagari-Sampratyaya)/ believe=sampalataya,paniwala,pananalig, in case of faithfulness= it is translated as "Katapatan", Trust= Tiwala(as in I have trust in you= may tiwala ako sa iyo). Note: sincerity is also translated as " Katapatan" /  pagiging tunay o totoo.


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## mataripis

Trouw is related to Dumaget word " Matud" which is also existing in Bisayan dialects.it has the meaning "Real".


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## ThomasK

Great: so a link between truth/ reality and trust, even in Tagalog, so it seems...


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> I don't whether loyalty and faithfulness are perfect synonyms, right now. I checked some sites and it does not become clear. Can anyone help here ?


 
I think they are not exactly the same. For me, _faithfulness_ is rather one's personal "attitude" (I'm faithful because I trust or believe in sy/sg ...). And _loyalty_ is rather one's "behaviour" (I am loyal because we fight for the same idea, or perhaps because we have an agreement...). Practically, these two aspects used to coincide, so the difference may not be evident.

What's your opinion ?...


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## ThomasK

I can agree with you, but indeed, in practice L symbolizes some kind of F, and F leads to L, I guess - though the link might not be necessarily intrinsic, I suddenly think.


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> I can agree with you, but indeed, in practice L symbolizes some kind of F, and F leads to L, I guess - though the link might not be necessarily intrinsic, I suddenly think.


 
Yes, I agree, neverthless I tend to feel the difference, even if not in all the situations, of course. But see also the origin or etymology of the words we are talking about:

_*faithful*_ is litteraly "full of _*faith*_ (or _*belief*)_"
_*loyal*_ is litteraly "_*legal*_" or "according to the _*law*_"

The word "_loyal_" comes from the old French, that goes back to the Latin _legalis,_ derived from _lex_, _legis_ (= _loi/loy_ in French and _law_ in English)

See also:
Italian: _leale_ versus _legale_
Spanish_: leal_ versus _legal_


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## ThomasK

Wooow, an extremely interesting link, extremely interesting. By the way: _trust_ and _truth_ have the same root. isn't that nice as well?!?


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> Wooow, an extremely interesting link, extremely interesting. By the way: _trust_ and _truth_ have the same root. isn't that nice as well?!?


 
Yes, I agree with you . Could you give us some examples from other germanic languages for words, that have the same origin as _true/trust_ ?


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## ThomasK

Yes, Dutch and German: _trouw/ Treue_ (faithfulness), and the root might be 'faithful like a tree', with faith coming first, truth coming after. But I can't get any further? starting from the PIE *dru, the most probable 'root'.


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## francisgranada

ThomasK said:


> Yes, Dutch and German: _trouw/ Treue_ (faithfulness), and the root might be 'faithful like a tree', with faith coming first, truth coming after. But I can't get any further? starting from the PIE *dru, the most probable 'root'.


 
And what about the scandinavian languages?

I'd like to have a more "complex" idea about the germanic _**tru*_... Now we know the German _treu,_ the English _true,_ the Dutch _trouw_ and the hypothetical IE etymology, but it's still not enough ...


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## ThomasK

well, the only thing etymonline referred to was tree. Where can we find other information ?


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