# Rude America?



## nederlandsk

I was looking in a Norwegian book, and it said that most Norwegian people consider Americans to be loud and rude. I've heard that most other cultures also find Americans to be rude and obnoxious, and I can't disagree! I wanted to hear your guys' opinions on this. 

*EDIT:*

LET ME MAKE MYSELF CLEAR: I do not mean all Americans are rude, If I did, why would I live in the USA? . I'm saying i've seen a lot of rude American tourists in other countries.


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## whattheflock

A comedian once said that you can compare countries to people you see in a pub (bar): The elegant, slick, nicely turned-out elderly gent who sits sipping a bone-dry martini (and that you don't quite know why but think he might be a bit naughty) could be one of the Western European countries. And then you might observe the surly guy just out of his teens, bouncing against the walls with his fist balled up and a chip on his shoulder the size of an I-beam, and you could compare him to the USA.

Maybe, we Americans are not as suave and elegant because we never had any kind of "royalty" in our country to keep us in line and aware of what is expected from "high society", and to conform to our station in life, so our "open" and aw-shucks attitude comes across as crass and unrefined.

Or, I don't know.


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## Tsoman

As an american, any type of seriousness frightens me


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## Scrooge

I live in America and there are plenty of loud and rude people here. I try not to be one of them because I find them very annoying.


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## nederlandsk

me too, I really hate it when I see people like that. Once I saw a guy yelling at a waitress in a Chinese restaurant because they didn't serve hamburgers! *rolls eyes*


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## cuchuflete

You have already said that you find Americans rude and obnoxious, stating your agreement with something you have heard about "most other cultures".  

Here are two rude and obnoxious requests for you:

1- Tell us why you put so much stock in vague hearsay;
2- Why not take your prejudice, declare victory, and self-righteously withdraw?

I wouldn't call national stereotyping rude.  I wouldn't call it obnoxious.   I could try to call it reasonable or thoughtful or intelligent, but that would take a gargantuan effort, and it still wouldn't be true.


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## ps139

nederlandsk said:


> I was looking in a Norwegian book, and it said that most Norwegian people consider Americans to be loud and rude. I've heard that most other cultures also find Americans to be rude and obnoxious, and I can't disagree! I wanted to hear your guys' opinions on this.


As an American, I sadly believe you are right. I've been embarassed at the way my own friends act when we've been in Europe. A lot of Americans are used to having things their way, and now. A lot of Americans have an air of superiority that does not leave them when they go overseas. I think part of this is the cultural tradition of "rugged individualism" (think cowboys) and also the fact that most people in America don't live anywhere near a foreign border. In Europe, it is much easier and cheaper to go to another country, and you probably meet more foreignors on a daily basis. Also, Europe's cultural history is that of a continent with many countries. I can't speak of other parts of the world because I've never been to any. But yes, I do think that Americans deserve this reputation.


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## ElaineG

Hmmm...

I've never seen anything so rude as a bunch of English rugby fans trying to get service in an Indian restaurant in Edinburgh.  I've never actually been in an American restaurant where a large group of people shouted racial slurs at the owners of the restaurant, but that did happen there.

Or dealing with "customer service" at various Italian banks, phone companies, airlines.  I was often homesick for the land of "have a nice day."  Or did you ever try waiting on a line in Italy?  There's not a great cultural respect for "first come, first served."

Living in my village in Sicily, I got to experience rudeness in all flavors -- French, German, Northern Italian, English, Dutch tourists barking at my friends who ran the bar on the corner, thinking that speaking their native language louder would get better results.  If we could generalize, which we shouldn't, if anything, I'd say a higher percentage of Americans made an effort to speak a little Italian and to try to "blend in." (This is partly because that part of Sicily is a mass tourism destination for the French, Germans and English, while the Americans who make it there tend to be independent travelers -- American mass tourism still being focused in other parts of Italy).

I think many _people_ are rude.  It's not a national trait. They even have rude people in Thailand (although they are rather few and far between).  I probably experienced the least _rudeness_ in Africa -- but it's obvious that I'm a foreigner there, and I expect people have their "company manners" on when dealing with me.

If you think Americans are uniquely rude, you should probably immerse yourself in another culture for a while.


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## Schintom86

I understand that people make generalizations about groups of people in every culture throughout the world but that does not make it easier to accept a generalization about your own group.  I cannot help but be offended by this thread.  The United States cannot be looked at as a single entity.  It is home to now over 300 million people from every culture, religion, creed and whatever other demographic you want to throw in there all mixed together.  The only thing consistent about the American population is inconsistency.  For someone to say "Americans" are rude as a group is ignorant, not for lack of a better word.  I will not defend America by sharing my experience of Americans having lived here my entire life but I will say that I believe that it is not a stretch to say that in every culture and nation you will find similar patterns of behavior as to how people treat each other.  America has its undesirables just like every other country but to say that these people are represenative of everyone (maybe not on purpose) angers me.  Maybe I misunderstood what you were trying to say, however I believe that I am not wrong for reacting the way I have.


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## maxiogee

nederlandsk said:


> I was looking in a Norwegian book, and it said that most Norwegian people consider Americans to be loud and rude. I've heard that most other cultures also find Americans to be rude and obnoxious, and I can't disagree! I wanted to hear your guys' opinions on this.



It would appear that the rude citizens of your own country have an excellent spokesperson in you!
How rude is it to generalise about, say, the Irish, based on a population of about 6 million living on the island?
How much more rude is it, then, to generalise about 295 million Americans?


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## whattheflock

Oficially, as of today: 300,000,000 Americans.


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## .   1

I dunno about Yanks in general but I think it a little unfair and totally inaccurate to base an opinion of a culture based solely on the observations made of tourists on holidays.
There is an old saying that may come into place here.
Never shit on your own doorstep.
I lived in Byron Bay for about 15 years and I saw every type of obnoxious behaviour from back-packing brats on a break from home.
The average was about 22 years old on a holiday to see the real Australia and meet real Australian people.
The problem was that they were in a foreign culture with too much money and too much time and too much cheap grog.
If I was base my opinion of other cultures on my observations of tourists I would think that the whole world was rude but that the rudest was Australia.

.,,


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## JamesM

A perception of rudeness is also based on cultural expectations. Many things that the French consider perfectly acceptable would be considered very rude by American standards. Even some topics that the English feel free to discuss in public are a little shocking and uncouth to the typical American, and I daresay the same is true in reverse. 

What is acceptable and unacceptable varies so much by culture. For example, the question "what do you do for a living?" is considered very friendly and open in the U.S., even with a casual acquaintance that you may only meet once, but in France this is considered rude, French natives tell me. "Why don't you have any children if you've been married for five years?" or "Why are you so fat?" are not considered rude questions at all by many Asian cultures, but I think most Americans would consider them fairly personal questions that would be rude to ask someone you had just met.

So, one of the confusions about rudeness stems from people being unintentionally rude, I think. If you don't know what is considered rude it's easy to stumble into a conversational hole, so to speak.


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## Mei

nederlandsk said:


> I was looking in a Norwegian book, and it said that most Norwegian people consider Americans to be loud and rude. I've heard that most other cultures also find Americans to be rude and obnoxious, and I can't disagree! I wanted to hear your guys' opinions on this.



Hi,

I think that you can find rude people everywhere. 

Cheers

Mei


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## jess oh seven

obviously it's a huge generalisation. but i'm half American myself and do agree with some of those generalisations.

my favourite example being when my mother (who is Scottish) was over visiting some of my father's family (who are American), and she was sitting reading the paper. my dad's uncle proceeds to ask her "So are you understanding the paper ok?", to which she responded dryly "Yes, I seem to be managing alright..."

how is that in any way excusable? i think it is a form of rudeness myself. i've had other (American) people ask me if i speak "the language" in Scotland alright too!


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## JazzByChas

Thank you Elaine, for your "international" point of view. <smile>



ElaineG said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> I've never seen anything so rude as a bunch of English rugby fans trying to get service in an Indian restaurant in Edinburgh. I've never actually been in an American restaurant where a large group of people shouted racial slurs at the owners of the restaurant, but that did happen there.
> 
> Or dealing with "customer service" at various Italian banks, phone companies, airlines. I was often homesick for the land of "have a nice day." Or did you ever try waiting on a line in Italy? There's not a great cultural respect for "first come, first served."
> 
> Living in my village in Sicily, I got to experience rudeness in all flavors -- French, German, Northern Italian, English, Dutch tourists barking at my friends who ran the bar on the corner, thinking that speaking their native language louder would get better results. If we could generalize, which we shouldn't, if anything, I'd say a higher percentage of Americans made an effort to speak a little Italian and to try to "blend in." (This is partly because that part of Sicily is a mass tourism destination for the French, Germans and English, while the Americans who make it there tend to be independent travelers -- American mass tourism still being focused in other parts of Italy).
> 
> I think many _people_ are rude. It's not a national trait. They even have rude people in Thailand (although they are rather few and far between). I probably experienced the least _rudeness_ in Africa -- but it's obvious that I'm a foreigner there, and I expect people have their "company manners" on when dealing with me.
> 
> If you think Americans are uniquely rude, you should probably immerse yourself in another culture for a while.


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## Lemminkäinen

As a Norwegian, I don't think it's weird that a lot of us find Americans loud and rude - generally speaking (you can't, of course, classify an entire people) Norwegians seem pretty cold and hard to establish contact with, not only for Americans, but also for a lot of Europeans.

We, on the other hand, find others too direct, getting too close too soon. Also, the Jante law is very much alive here, causing anyone who talks proudly of their accomplishments to be seen as boasting.

Other than that, I think that the majority of Americans are nice people, but that the minority of them who go traveling and behaves obnoxiously stick better in our mind because of a preconceived notion of "the Ugly American".

But as has been said before, rude people exist in every culture and stereotyping a whole population because of them is just silly.


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## zerduja

I think that if a foreigner would visit a place like,Nebraska,Kansas,Oklahoma  they would find the people there to be warm and friendly.


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## Tsoman

I think that most nationalities can seem rude if they travel in large groups. 

In a large group, the host country is like a zoo to view.


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## sunflower84

There are rude people everywhere like Mei said. It's the rude ones you notice because the polite ones don't run screaming down streets, or shouting things to catch people's attention...
I agree with Elaine on several of her points but also would like to think that people wouldn't judge a country's population based on one or two experiences.


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## ireney

I think one of the factors that contribute to this stereotype is the fact that most of the Americans I've met are rather direct (and I don't think it has to do with nobility because we didn't have anything bu an excuse for a king only and that for a while and it's certainly not the reason we are not as direct as the Americans I've met)

Others find it refreshing others rude.

One of the factors that contribute to the stereotype that Greeks have no manners is that we actually think it's bad manners not to come close to the other person when talking because it shows you find his/her proximity somehow repulsive. 

Other find our lack of "respect" of personal bubble dash space rude others endearing.

When my American boyfriend was here, an old lady in a shop for some reason liked him very much. She therefore asked me if she could hug and kiss him, didn't wait for me to say OK let alone translate, rushed over, hugged and kissed him.  How about that for rudeness? (thank whomever he found it endearing and not rude but he could very well have)


I know only two Norwegians. Tom is a dear  only after you get behind his "cold" facade. Unless you accept that he is not as... exhuberant as Greeks he comes out as a cold fish.

Others may find this rude. I find that funny (I wish I could get Trude to describe a discussion between me and Tom and you would find it funny too)


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## nederlandsk

cuchuflete said:


> You have already said that you find Americans rude and obnoxious, stating your agreement with something you have heard about "most other cultures".
> 
> Here are two rude and obnoxious requests for you:
> 
> 1- Tell us why you put so much stock in vague hearsay;
> 2- Why not take your prejudice, declare victory, and self-righteously withdraw?
> 
> I wouldn't call national stereotyping rude. I wouldn't call it obnoxious. I could try to call it reasonable or thoughtful or intelligent, but that would take a gargantuan effort, and it still wouldn't be true.


 
I LIVE in America- in Arkansas, and I already hear a ton of racists. Jeez, I'm not racist I just wanted to hear your guys' opinions. I have seen rude people from every culture- it's not just Americans. I just wanted to ask what you guys (and girls) thought! I also think you find rude people everywhere- I've been all over Europe (Spain, France, Germany, The Netherlands, Iceland) and to South America (Brazil and Argentina) and I've found rude people every where. I don't think America is always rude- I never said that all of America is rude: I was saying I've seen a lot of Americans. 

Jeez, people are so touchy


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## nederlandsk

Please, if there are moderators on this board, lock this thread. A couple of people have misunderstood me and jumped to conclusions. I wasn't trying to create controversy, I was merely asking for opinions.


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## maxiogee

nederlandsk said:


> I don't think America is always rude- I never said that all of America is rude: I was saying I've seen a lot of Americans.
> 
> Jeez, people are so touchy



Allow me to remind you of what you posted… (before you added the edit to it.)



> I was looking in a Norwegian book, and it said that most Norwegian people consider Americans to be loud and rude. I've heard that most other cultures also find Americans to be rude and obnoxious, and I can't disagree!



Someone makes a blanket statement and you say you can't disagree - that is the same as saying the thing yourself.

Perhaps the book said that "most Norwegians consider (most) Americans to be loud and rude", but that is not what you wrote. The only interpretation I can place on the words you wrote is that most Norwegians consider all Americans to be loud and rude, and that you agree.

Re-read the words you wrote and then tell me how else I can be expected to understand them?


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## scandia

Hello
I also saw what Nederlandsk wrote, and it was a blanket statement. But, I wasn't exactly sure what he (or she) meant, because it was sorta strange to me that he (or she) would live in the USA, and hate Americans. I'm not siding with anyone, as I'm a new member and I don't want pre-assumptions made about me, and that's sort of what happened to the person who started this thread.


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## geve

I thought that French were the ones to be supposedly rude?!

What does it mean to be rude as a general attitude (not just because of one particular thing that you say or don't say or do or don't do)? If I may hazard a personal definition:

*He who does not have my manners is rude.*

Politeness is a subjective concept. The problem is that politeness was forced upon us with such strength that we accept it as a universal frame of analysis. _Don't stare, don't point your finger at people, don't leave the dinner table before meal is over, keep your voice down, stand still, don't talk about money, behave!!_

But not all of us were lectured with the same notions. I for instance was surprised by JamesM's comment:


JamesM said:


> For example, the question "what do you do for a living?" is considered very friendly and open in the U.S., even with a casual acquaintance that you may only meet once, but in France this is considered rude, French natives tell me.


In my circle asking about jobs is perfectly ok; it is actually among the first questions that one asks when meeting a new person, as I said in this thread.


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## .   1

nederlandsk said:


> Jeez, people are so touchy


 


nederlandsk said:


> Please, if there are moderators on this board, lock this thread. A couple of people have misunderstood me and jumped to conclusions. I wasn't trying to create controversy, I was merely asking for opinions.


It may be just me but the inclusion of the  symbol seems to indicate that you are mad with the rest of the forum for misinterpreting your original post.
I find this rather hard to swallow.
You apparently knew what you meant but all I had to work with were your words and those words did appear at first blush to be provocative.
Your attempts to throw oil on troubled waters have also been compromised by the apparently aggressive attitude containing  when  may have been more appropriate. 

.,,


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## Tsoman

scandia said:


> because it was sorta strange to me that he (or she) would live in the USA, and hate Americans.



believe me, it's not strange at all (especially at college)


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## ps139

maxiogee said:


> Perhaps the book said that "most Norwegians consider (most) Americans to be loud and rude", but that is not what you wrote. The only interpretation I can place on the words you wrote is that most Norwegians consider all Americans to be loud and rude, and that you agree.


I took it the opposite way, in civil discussions of this nature, that parenthetical "most" is often taken to be implied. That is how I read it. I am American and I did not take it to mean he thinks I personally (being part of the imaginary "all") am rude. Whether you insert 'most' or 'all' is your personal choice and you can't get so upset with nederlansk about it.

also, if I am counting right, only one American got upset over the wording of the statement, while all the other Americans here had no problem with it. Interesting that the people mad at the OP are not American?


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## SaritaSarang

Americans can be rude when in other countries, yeah its true, but when I travel abroad (spain in general) I encounter racism/prej. because im not "Eurpoean" or "Spanish".   In America other cultures are generally more accepted because we have so many people from so many different countries already, (im not saying there isnt racism here) but in England and Spain I was looked down upon, because I dont speak British English, and the Spanish had trouble believing that I could possible speak Spanish(gave them a surprise when I responded in Spanish to their remarks). Europeans seem to think Americans are rude/loud etc.. and Americans seem to think that Europeans are snobby/think they are better than everyone else.


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## maxiogee

ps139 said:


> I took it the opposite way, in civil discussions of this nature, that parenthetical "most" is often taken to be implied. That is how I read it. I am American and I did not take it to mean he thinks I personally (being part of the imaginary "all") am rude. Whether you insert 'most' or 'all' is your personal choice and you can't get so upset with nederlansk about it.
> 
> also, if I am counting right, only one American got upset over the wording of the statement, while all the other Americans here had no problem with it. Interesting that the people mad at the OP are not American?



As that patenthetical most was my insertion, and as I said, perhaps the book implied it, but if it did, the original poster was remiss in not including it. In discussions on a language forum I don't take things as implied. We must either work with the words we are given to deal with (on the assumption that the poster knows what words to use) or, we may see things which puzzle us and cause us to ask for more context or clarification.

-- however -- 
That said, I still feel that the gross generalisation of "most" is unwarranted in reference to the people of any region or nation.
This was why I introduced the comparison of Ireland's 6 million to the USA's population of 50 times that.

It may well be that when dealing with smaller and smaller populations some generalisations come to apply to more and more of the group being spoken of…

In 2002 the least populated county in Ireland was Co Leitrim. It had almost 26,000 people living there. Its largest town has 10% of that.
I would be on fairly safe grounds were I to say "Most people in Co Leitrim are living in isolated farms.
However, if I enlarge the group to "most people living in North-west Ireland" I would still be close to accurate, but less so than before.
And as I get up to dealing with "all people in Ireland" I've gone off the wall totally.
Now, imagine that the only Irish people our Norwegian author has met, or had experience of, have been from County Leitrim, and writes "Many Norwegians believe Irish people live on isolated farms". There may well be some element of "many Irish people" in there, but the author has chosen not to say that. And for someone quoting that author to say "I can't disagree" implies that this person has a wide personal experience of this group and that their knowledge matches that of the author.

I wasn't cross at the rudeness to Americans, it was the generalisation used, which irritated me.
And in a forum where we have so many non-rude Americans, it was tactless to post such a thing.


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## cuchuflete

Tony's point about the importance of precision in choice of words is well illustrated by a sequence of events in this thread. In my previous post, I used the word "prejudice".  I didn't say—or mean, or think of—anything at all concerning race. I had something like this in mind:



> bias, *prejudice*, preconception
> 
> _a partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation_



The person who started the thread took that word, "prejudice", as an accusation of racism!  I suppose that's the only, or most frequent, use of "prejudice" in his or her experience.  Later on, another member continued the racism theme.  

Next time I use the word, I'll try to be more specific.

I might also suggest that the next time anybody wants to generalize about the entire population of a country, or, as the edited post #1 clarifies, the entire population of tourists from a country, some precision could help avoid misunderstandings.

There we have it, "Precise generalization".  What a fine oxymoron.


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## Lavinia.dNP

scandia said:


> Hello
> I also saw what Nederlandsk wrote, and it was a blanket statement. But, I wasn't exactly sure what he (or she) meant, because it was sorta strange to me that he (or she) would live in the USA, and hate Americans. I'm not siding with anyone, as I'm a new member and I don't want pre-assumptions made about me, and that's sort of what happened to the person who started this thread.


 
I think that it is perfectly possible to live in a place where you don't like the people : I live in Paris, and in 4 years, I haven't found a single friendly Parisian : it's impossible to try and make new friendships here. I tried several times to involve some co-workers in activities outside work, and every time the answer was the same : a plastified smile and "what a nice idea ! yes, i'dlike very much to come", and at the last minute "oh, i'm so sorry, but I can't come, I've got too much work to do". The proposal was a concert starting at 8 PM, and at least 3 people said the same thing, and honestly I don't believe that they were all staying that late at the office. None of the people I proposed this concert to said honestly that they weren't interested.
This is the general attitude I found every single time I tried to propose something.
Considering this, do I have the permission to make another blanket statement saying that Parisians are haughty, standoffish and hypocrite ?

But maybe that's because of the cultural difference, as other people were saying, in many countries, what we consider like a welcoming attitude can be seen by others like rudeness.


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## geve

Lavinia.dNP said:


> Considering this, do I have the permission to make another blanket statement saying that Parisians are haughty, standoffish and hypocrite ?


You have the right to say that your Parisian coworkers are haughty, standoffish and hypocrite.


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## Poetic Device

I can understand why people think Americans are rude or why they think Americans have the theory that they are allowed to be rude.  People in general are jerks, to say the least and be the nicest that I can be.  However, I can also see how because of some of the actions the less-sophisticated American can cause at least some of the population of another country to think most if not all Americans are like that and therefore cause a funny and odd pong game of dislike.  After all, when another country just has things like "The Jerry Springer Show" to base the United States on, what else are you supposed to think.

So, by the by, I don't blame anyone for thinking along those lines.  If I was in another country, I would whole-heartidly agree.


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## french4beth

Has anyone ever heard of the phrase "self-fulfilling prophecy"?  

For example, you expect Americans to be rude, act accordingly, then can't understand why 'they' are so rude?

Also - as previously mentioned, different things are considered rude in different countries - one person may be perceived to be rude by someone from a different culture.

Another point - in the US, the customer is always right (well, not really, but that's a common philosophy). Shop owners, restaurant managers, etc. generally do whatever they can to indulge their customers. However, customers are treated much differently in other countries (not better/not worse, differently) in that their whims are not indulged to the extent that some Americans' are.

From one of the 'rude' Americans...


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