# "envy is the ulcer of the soul"



## tookie27

Hello,

Could anyone please help me to translate the quote "envy is the ulcer of the soul" from English to Greek?  I need help translating it exact as I am using it for a tattoo and don't want it to be wrong!

Thanks


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## anthodocheio

Hello and welcome!

I propose this one:
"Η ζήλια είναι το έλκος της ψυχής"


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## peri+kleos

Hello from me too,
I would say : "Ο φθόνος είναι το έλκος της ψυχής".


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## tookie27

Many Thanks Guys, this is a huge help!


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## Tetina

And I would say: 
"Ο φθόνος είναι η πληγή της ψυχής" 
thinking that "ulcer of soul" is a metaphor.

Now - having already 3 different answers - do you insist in tattooing it?


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## balgior

Hello!
In my humble opinion, this "έλκος" is quite an unattractive word to be tattooed! At least in Greek!


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## peri+kleos

> In my humble opinion, this "έλκος" is quite an unattractive word to be tattooed! At least in Greek!


I agree. It sounds ,the least, weird to say such a thing in Greek. I think Tetina offered the best translation.


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## tookie27

Thanks Guys, the quote is actually from Socrates who was greek so I wanted to make it authentic as possible, and Greek writing looks really nice!

I obviously need to make sure it is translated as close as possible though!


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## Vagabond

According to this, and a few other sites out there, the line is "Ο φθόνος είναι έλκος της ψυχής". Trying to see if I can get the actual text in ancient Greek though.


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## Tetina

peri+kleos said:


> Hello from me too,
> I would say : "Ο φθόνος είναι το έλκος της ψυχής".


 

Searching in Google I see a lot of this quote from _Korais_. 
By Socrates I found this quote:
Ο φθόνος είναι παιδί της αλαζονείας, εργάτης της εκδίκησης, αρχηγός μυστικής επανάστασης και διαρκές βάσανο της αρετής. *Ο φθόνος είναι βόρβορος της ψυχής*, δηλητήριο κι υδράργυρος που φθείρει τη σάρκα κι αποξεραίνει το μυελό των οστών.​ 
So I'm a little bit confused​ 
Tookie, you want ancient or modern greek?​


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## anthodocheio

I see that the link Balgior gave has the other frase too. "Ο φθόνος είναι έλκος της ψυχής".

So there are two different quotes...


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## Kevman

Hi folks,

I found this passage in Plato's _Philebus_:*Σωκράτης:* γελώντας ἄρα ἡμᾶς ἐπὶ τοῖς τῶν φίλων γελοίοις φησὶν ὁ λόγος, κεραννύντας ἡδονὴν αὖ φθόνῳ, λύπῃ τὴν ἡδονὴν συγκεραννύναι: τὸν γὰρ φθόνον ὡμολογῆσθαι λύπην ψυχῆς ἡμῖν πάλαι, τὸ δὲ γελᾶν ἡδονήν. ἅμα γίγνεσθαι δὲ τούτω ἐν τούτοις τοῖς χρόνοις.​My bad attempt at a literal translation: "_f__or it has been previously agreed by us that envy is the pain of the soul_"

If you wanted to work backwards from the Demotic version, though, I would think you'd only need to alter the verb and the accents:
 ὁ φθόνος ἐστὶ ἕλκος τῆς ψυχῆς
but my ancient Greek is terrible, so hopefully someone can help confirm this.


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## wonderment

Hello έβριμπόντι!

My first thought, too, was to look in Plato. But this citation actually comes from the anthology of Greek authors culled together by Stobaeus (c. latter half of 5th century CE). 

And his book is available on the web for our reading pleasure: http://books.google.com/books?id=ET...ENy&sig=6j-RmsOgqxy3XD5tHSsWgy2Zcuk#PPA517,M1
A search on the sidebar for “ulcer of the soul” will take you directly to this quote. 

So tookie, here’s yet another option, from the source itself (it’s also the economical version, especially if you’re paying by the letter for this tattoo): ὁ φθόνος ἕλκος τῆς ψυχῆς  (The verb ‘to be’ is not necessary here, but should you want one: ὁ φθόνος ἐστὶν ἕλκος τῆς ψυχῆς ) 

να είστε καλά!


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## tookie27

Ideally this needs to be in ancient Greek as the quote was from Socrates and needs to be as accurate as possible...your replies have been really helpful so far so thanks!


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## wonderment

tookie27 said:


> Ideally this needs to be in ancient Greek as the quote was from Socrates and needs to be as accurate as possible...your replies have been really helpful so far so thanks!



Hi! ὁ φθόνος ἕλκος τῆς ψυχῆς = "envy is the ulcer of the soul" in Ancient Greek. Have fun with that!


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## Kevman

wonderment said:


> But this citation actually comes from the anthology of Greek authors culled together by Stobaeus (c. latter half of 5th century CE).


That's a good find, wonderment.  Interesting, though, how "envy" is in the accusative in that source as well.  I wonder what the rest of the context is (that parenthetical "he said" intrigues me).  Or do you think the line is probably ultimately from the _Philebus_, just that the version with _ἕλκος_ is traceable back to Stobaeus?



wonderment said:


> (The verb ‘to be’ is not necessary here, but should you want one: ὁ φθόνος ἐστὶ*ν* ἕλκος τῆς ψυχῆς )


Oops, I forgot about that moveable _-ν_! 


Another very minor point: Harbottle translates it as "..._*an*_ ulcer of the soul." For "_*the*_ ulcer of the soul" wouldn't you want to stick a _*το*_ in there, i.e.: ὁ φθόνος *το* ἕλκος τῆς ψυχῆς (ἐστιν)?


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## anthodocheio

Kevman said:


> Another very minor point: Harbottle translates it as "..._*an*_ ulcer of the soul." For "_*the*_ ulcer of the soul" wouldn't you want to use another *ὁ*, i.e.: ὁ φθόνος *ὁ* ἕλκος τῆς ψυχῆς (ἐστιν)?


Γεια Κεβ!
Είναι "*το* έλκος". Κοίτα επάνω ^^

Καληνύχτα εβριμπάντι


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## wonderment

Kevman said:


> Interesting, though, how "envy" is in the accusative in that source as well.  I wonder what the rest of the context is (that parenthetical "he said" intrigues me).  Or do you think the line is probably ultimately from the _Philebus_, just that the version with _ἕλκος_ is traceable back to Stobaeus?



No, there is no basis to connect Stobaeus’s citation with Plato’s text. Those two words are accusative simply because they are the complementary noun of the subject accusative of an indirect statement. The parenthetical “he said that...” is put there to explain this fact: 

(He said that) envy is the ulcer of the soul. 

Without the parenthetical 'he said' you would expect 'envy' and 'ulcer' to be in the nominative, not accusative.



> Another very minor point: Harbottle translates it as "..._*an*_ ulcer of the soul." For "_*the*_ ulcer of the soul" wouldn't you want to stick a _*το*_ in there, i.e.: ὁ φθόνος το ἕλκος τῆς ψυχῆς (ἐστιν)??



No, I wouldn't do that because that would make the syntax ambiguous. As you've written it, one can translate the sentences as either "Envy is the ulcer of the soul" or "The ulcer of the soul is envy." 

Remember that the article can be omitted in Ancient Greek. Its presence and omission can function to differentiate between the subject and predicate. The subject noun ('envy') takes the article, the predicate noun ('ulcer') does not. This is exemplified in the examples from both Plato and Stobaeus.

Also Ancient Greek (unlike Modern) does not have an indefinite article (a, an). In its absence, there is more flexibility for translation. For instance, in the example from Stobaeus, you can translate it as either "Envy is the ulcer of the soul" or "Envy is an ulcer of the soul."

I've omitted the verb 'to be' because it's common to do so in Ancient Greek, and because it's been omitted in the original text.

So to tookie, once more, with feeling: ὁ φθόνος ἕλκος τῆς ψυχῆς = "Envy is the ulcer of the soul" in Ancient Greek.


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## tookie27

Hi Guys,

Many many thanks for all your help so far...i was just wondering...if we changed thr word 'ulcer' for the word 'pain' or 'evil' would I just have to change the one word?  woudl the rest of the words make sense?

If so, how can I do this???


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