# Can't tell a pig's ear from a cow's arsehole



## ndrina

Ciao, 
sto traducendo un testo teatrale ma sono entrata in crisi davanti a questa espressione :"Can't tell a pig's ear from a cow's arsehole". Qualcuno di voi è in grado di aiutarmi?
Grazie!


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## rrose17

This is a variant (and a very colourful one!) of a commonplace expression that shows the person is either very stupid or ignorant.
Others are something like "He doesn't know the difference between his ass and his elbow."
"He doesn't know the difference between his ass and hole in the ground." etc. 
I don't know if there is something comparable in Italian.


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## Lorena1970

Mi domando se questa espressione, indubbiamente notevolmente "colorita", non è più simile alla ben più sobria "Non puoi vuotare il mare con un bicchiere"...? In questo caso si riferirebbe al voler fare qualcosa di impossibile ( e quindi probabilmente stupido) più che alla stupidità in sé della persona....???


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## Einstein

Lorena1970 said:


> Mi domando se questa espressione, indubbiamente notevolmente "colorita", non è più simile alla ben più sobria "Non puoi vuotare il mare con un bicchiere"...? In questo caso si riferirebbe al voler fare qualcosa di impossibile ( e quindi probabilmente stupido) più che alla stupidità in sé della persona....???


Ciao Lo.
Non direi; "tell" vuol dire proprio "distinguere" e il senso è che la persona è così tonta da non saper distinguere neanche fra due cose diversissime.


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## Lorena1970

Ciao Einstein!!! Ecco, quindi ora capisco che in questo casi non "acchiappo" il senso né di "know" né di "tell"... Grazie!


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## Einstein

Sì, vuol dire qualcosa come scorgere, constatare; ecco alcuni esempi:

I can tell he's French from his accent.
I can tell you've been running (hai il fiatone, si capisce che hai corso).
(to a child): Can you tell the time? (sai leggere l'ora sull'orologio?).


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## onionsalad

Lorena1970 said:


> Mi domando se questa espressione, indubbiamente notevolmente "colorita", non è più simile alla ben più sobria "Non puoi vuotare il mare con un bicchiere"...? In questo caso si riferirebbe al voler fare qualcosa di impossibile ( e quindi probabilmente stupido) più che alla stupidità in sé della persona....???



Hmmm... Bisognerebbe conoscere il contesto, ma in genere la frase nel titolo si riferisce proprio alla stupidità o ignoranza della persona.
Potresti tradurla con qualcosa come "Non saprebbe riconoscere un elefante da una radiolina a transistor" (o qualsiasi altra cosa buffamente distante da un elefante).


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## Lorena1970

Grazie! Vero...ora mi sovviene ma uso davvero di rado queste espressioni di everyday English (si dice...?) che me le dimentico...
( Prima l'avevo interpretata come CAN'T TALK TO A PIG'S EAR FROM A COW ARSEHOLE" ) 
@ onionsalad: brava, hai trovato un equivalente italiano!


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## ndrina

Grazie per i vostri interventi, mi sono stati di grande aiuto. Adesso proverò ad inventare qualcosa di efficace. Comunque nel testo il marito torna dal lavoro e la moglie gli domanda com'è andata e lui risponde: "un delirio totale. Sam è in malattia e Janine 'can't tell a pig's ear from a cow's arsehole, scuse my French'.
Aggiungo che il marito lavora come macellaio in un supermercato, quindi avevo pensato che c'entrasse qualcosa con le metafore utilizzate del maiale e della mucca.
Grazie a tutti!!


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## onionsalad

Allora puoi contestualizzare la traduzione all'ambiente della macelleria: quella Janine non saprebbe distinguere un abbacchio da una salsiccia! O vedi tu ...


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## Lorena1970

Potresti anche tradurre come é...no? Visto che dice "Scuse my French" (scusa il francesismo" ) "Non riconosce l'orecchio di un maiale dal culo di una mucca". Anche se non esiste in Italiano, tradotto così mi pare che renda anche l'ironia...no...?


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## rrose17

It should be a little rude. First of all this expression in English is almost always comparing something to someone's ass. Also _'scuse my French_ is a very unclassy way of saying excuse me for swearing.


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## Lorena1970

@ rrose17: In Italian "scusa il francesismo" is considered very polite and chic to let someone know that your use of strong language is intentional. Also I have often heard that sentence by classy BE people... (generally "Excuse my French")


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## rrose17

Lorena1970 said:


> @ rrose17: In Italian "scusa il francesismo" is considered very polite and chic to let someone know that your use of strong language is intentional. Also I have often heard that sentence by classy BE people... (generally "Excuse my French")


You've _often_ heard this from classy BE speakers... hmmm. Shall we agree to disagree? I find it a terribly old fashioned and narrow minded expression that should be dropped. Sorry, I can't help it!!


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## Odysseus54

rrose17 said:


> You've _often_ heard this from classy BE speakers... hmmm. Shall we agree to disagree? I find it a terribly old fashioned and narrow minded expression that should be dropped. Sorry, I can't help it!!




I agree - the Italian expression 'scusa il francesismo' must also be a neologism modeled after the English expression.

In my experience, if an Italian feels like swearing , generally to make a point , he will swear and not be falsely apologetic about it.


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## Lorena1970

Well, personally I agree about it being a bit old fashioned, no doubts. But anyway in general it is not considered unclassy, and classy people still use it together with an appropriate sound of their voice/face expression. It always depends on _how _we use sentences, I think. Also in BE I have heard it together with ironic sound of the voice or glance. For we were speaking about a play, I think it perfectly fit the situation, considering the sentence the housband refers to....
Maybe our idea of_ classy people_ is different...


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## onionsalad

rrose17 said:


> It should be a little rude. First of all this expression in English is almost always comparing something to someone's ass.



That's the point, I guess. An English sentence comparing  something to someone's ass sounds idiomatic, a standard comparison when you mean to say someone is ignorant or stupid,  while a literal translation would strike the Italian audience as an invented joke being deliberately rude. 
Correct me if I am wrong.


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## Odysseus54

I think what rrose17 was saying is that the general tone of the sentence, from the "country" metaphore to the " 'scuse my French " apology , is demotic/vulgar.

If you want to transfer that into Italian, you probably need to get some figurative horse manure under your fingernails yourself, don't you think ? 

Think of Manfredi as a ciociaro, or Toto' e Peppino.


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## Odysseus54

onionsalad said:


> That's the point, I guess. An English sentence comparing  something to someone's ass sounds idiomatic, a standard comparison when you mean to say someone is ignorant or stupid,  while a literal translation would strike the Italian audience as an invented joke being deliberately rude.
> Correct me if I am wrong.



The standard comparison is with the "ass"  -  " He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground".

Here, the more technical term "arsehole" pushes up the vulgarometer a notch or two, I think.


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## Lorena1970

I understand, but see here. It is of very common use in tv commedies or movies.
Google gives 1.300.000 results for that sentence.
It actually doesn't sound so strange to my ears, but maybe I am missing something...?
What I think is that if it is the translation of a British comedy and the sentence they use is that one (i.e. VERY vulgar), I don't understand why to make it more polite in Italian...? As for the use of the litteral translation I agree that it doesn't sound "natural" or "Italian" and it do sound vulgar.
What about "Non riconoscerebbe un orecchio di maiale da un posteriore di vitello...?". In this case "Excuse my French" is superfluous.
My 2 cents


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## You little ripper!

In Australia, (as a general rule) someone who says "Excuse the French" feels uncomfortable about what he has just said. It could be that he normally doesn't speak like that ('classy', to quote Lo), but it could also mean that that's the way he normally speaks ('unclassy') but is in company that normally doesn't swear.


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## Lorena1970

Perfect explanation Charles!


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## miri

And we do sometimes say "scusa la finezza" in Italian, which is the equivalent of "Excuse my French"


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## Einstein

Charles Costante said:


> In Australia, (as a general rule) someone who says "Excuse the French" feels uncomfortable about what he has just said. It could be that he normally doesn't speak like that ('classy', to quote Lo), but it could also mean that that's the way he normally speaks ('unclassy') but is in company that normally doesn't swear.


I'd add that (at least in my experience) the use of "Excuse the/my French" is usually ironic and joking and the person isn't really bothered about using bad language. It simply adds more humour to an already humorous comment.
I also know "excuse my *bad* French", suggesting that I've used a vulgar word because I don't speak French very well!


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## You little ripper!

Einstein said:


> I'd add that (at least in my experience) the use of "Excuse the/my French" is usually ironic and joking and the person isn't really bothered about using bad language. It simply adds more humour to an already humorous comment.
> I also know "excuse my *bad* French", suggesting that I've used a vulgar word because I don't speak French very well!


We also use it that way here too, Einstein. Sometimes we also use it (sarcastically) when we know that it's going to be offensive to the person being spoken to, but we don't really care/is done deliberately.


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## miri

Yes, in fact, I believe it is used in a humorous way here, since the person being spoken to is the speaker's wife ( I don't think the husband cares about being classy  )

Ragazzini has:  # not to know one's arse from one's elbow, essere un incompetente; non capire un cazzo (di qc)

This is the general meaning which does not convey  the references to "butchery"  of course...


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## ndrina

Grazie a tutti! Allora mi consigliate di evitare il paragone con la macelleria perché non c'entra nulla?
xxx



> *Per favore, un solo argomento per thread. Apri un nuovo thread per l'altra espressione, ma solo se non la trovi nel Dizionario. Grazie.*
> 
> *Dizionario Italiano - Inglese/Inglese - Italiano
> *
> *Come si effettua una ricerca nel forum? (NUOVO!)*
> 
> 
> *Linee guida del forum italiano-inglese*


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## miri

Ciao ndrina!
Non intendevo dire che non c'entra, infatti la frase, diciamo, "base" (il cui significato è quello che indicavo sopra) può venire modificata a seconda del contesto, come in questo caso. Bisogna vedere come meglio adattarla all'italiano, quale delle proposte fatte sopra ti piace di più o trovarne un'altra.
A me sembra molto fedele e spiritosa quella di Lorena


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## You little ripper!

Lorena1970 said:


> Potresti anche tradurre come é...no? Visto che dice "Scuse my French" (scusa il francesismo" ) "Non riconosce l'orecchio di un maiale dal culo di una mucca". Anche se non esiste in Italiano, tradotto così mi pare che renda anche l'ironia...no...?


I also think that this literal translation is the best one suggested so far. Firstly, the guy is a butcher - it has to relate to his job. Secondly, it  needs to be vulgar because of the "Scuse the French".


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## cialuzzo

Scuse Lorena1970

Ma un posteriore non e un culo, e se togliere il volgarita' cambia il carattere del personaggio e perde il sapore dal espresione.

Con tutto il rispetto, Cialuzzo


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## Odysseus54

Charles Costante said:


> I also think that this literal translation is the best one suggested so far. Firstly, the guy is a butcher - it has to relate to his job. Secondly, it  needs to be vulgar because of the "Scuse the French".



Allora, invece di "mucca",  "vacca".


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## Lorena1970

Thanks Miri, Charles and anyone else for supporting my "vision"
@ cialuzzo: I tried a "softer" version just to maintain the same litteral translation though being less vulgar. I agree that the use of culo it's more appropriate and it did sound good to me since I suggested it. I thought the mix of funny and vulgar was good enough.
@ Odysseus: I think that if we use "vacca" we must use "porco" instead of "maiale"...but maybe it is too much...???!!!
I am thinking that probably it would be better to usebuco del culo di una mucca/vacca" and that because I think he refers to the internal shape of the pig's ear, which is somewhat similar to a cow arsehole for common people,I suppose, but a butcher must be able to recognize that they are two different things at forst glance!


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