# Usted (origin)



## MarcB

Usted- origin. I have heard it is from arabic= usted= title of respect.
and su merced Spanish title of respect. does anyone know for sure which is correct or is it a combination of both?


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## Phryne

Hola Marc! 

I don't think there's any arabic origin about it. "Usted" comes from the colonial expression "vuestra merced". Later it was shortened as "vuesa merced", then "vusted" and finally "usted".

How do you translate "vuestra merced". Perhaps as "your highness"? I'm not sure about this. 

saludos


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## MarcB

thanks phryne vuestra merced makes more sense than su merced. but about 30 % of spanish has arabic origin from the 400 years Spain was controled by arabs. almost all the words that begin with al are of arabic origin.


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## Phryne

MarcB said:
			
		

> thanks phryne vuestra merced makes more sense than su merced. but about 30 % of spanish has arabic origin from the 400 years Spain was controled by arabs. almost all the words that begin with al are of arabic origin.


 You're right, but 30%? It seems way too much!   

sados


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## josama

Phryne said:
			
		

> Hola Marc!
> 
> I don't think there's any arabic origin about it. "Usted" comes from the colonial expression "vuestra merced". Later it was shortened as "vuesa merced", then "vusted" and finally "usted".
> 
> How do you translate "vuestra merced". Perhaps as "your highness"? I'm not sure about this.
> 
> saludos


 
I had never thought of it, but peasants from a central region in Colombia (more or less near Bogotá) use "Su merced" and "Vusté" to address other people (even their parents, kids, etc.) 

But maybe because they are the only ones using them, sometimes they're mocked using the expression Vusté a lot... Never thought of it as a contraction of "vuesa merced"...

Some Colombian peasants from different regions use many other antique words as well, such as "fierro" for "hierro", "forno" for "horno" and many, many others...

I'm going to think it over...


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## josama

Maybe "Su Merced" OR "Vuestra Merced" could really mean: "(estoy a) su/vuestra merced": "(I'm at) thine mercy" (<---is this OK?)


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## Phryne

josama said:
			
		

> I had never thought of it, but peasants from a central region in Colombia (more or less near Bogotá) use "Su merced" and "Vusté" to address other people (even their parents, kids, etc.)
> 
> But maybe because they are the only ones using them, sometimes they're mocked using the expression Vusté a lot... Never thought of it as a contraction of "vuesa merced"...
> 
> Some Colombian peasants from different regions use many other antique words as well, such as "fierro" for "hierro", "forno" for "horno" and many, many others...
> 
> I'm going to think it over...


 How interesting! In Argentina we use the word "fierro" a lot, not interchangeably to "hierro", though. We say it to refer to an iron bar, you know, like metal objects you find in a construction site, or in slang as in "Fulanito es de fierro" meaning that Fulanito is a _strong_ friend of mine/ours. There are other meanings but I'm not going to describe them all.  

saludos


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## Phryne

josama said:
			
		

> Maybe "Su Merced" OR "Vuestra Merced" could really mean: "(estoy a) su/vuestra merced": "(I'm at) thine mercy" (<---is this OK?)


 .. o...Thy??

Yo en esto soy menos que una principiante!


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## josama

Phryne said:
			
		

> .. o...Thy??
> 
> Yo en esto soy menos que una principiante!


 
Yo también, pero acabo de encontrar en el dicc. que thy *se usa sólo antes de palabras que empiezan en vocal o h y el resto de palabras deben estar precedidas de thine... *

*Es al revés*


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## Phryne

josama said:
			
		

> Yo también, pero acabo de encontrar en el dicc. que thy se usa sólo antes de palabras que empiezan en vocal o h y el resto de palbras deben estar precedidas de thine...


 Mirá  wikipedia , dice lo contrario. 

_Thy / Thine1

1 In a deliberately archaic style, the forms with /n/ are used before words beginning with a vowel sound (thine eyes). _

saludos


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## josama

¡Tenés razón!

Miré mal en el dicc., parece

Por eso yo soy novato y tú, Senior Member...


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## Phryne

josama said:
			
		

> ¡Tenés razón!
> 
> Miré mal en el dicc., parece
> 
> Por eso yo soy novato y tú, Senior Member...


  Ya me vas a conocer mejor, soy ama y señora de los errores!  

Saludos,
María José


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## Puntitas

Hola,

"Thy" y "thine" dejaron de usarse hace 200 años. Ahora solamente lo dicen personas que desean afectar un estilo antiguo o poético.

Pienso que "su merced" sería algo como "your worship" o "Your lordship/ladyship".

ciao


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## josama

Puntitas said:
			
		

> Hola,
> 
> "Thy" y "thine" dejaron de usarse hace 200 años. Ahora solamente lo dicen personas que desean afectar un estilo antiguo o poético.
> 
> Pienso que "su merced" sería algo como "your worship" o "Your lordship/ladyship".
> 
> ciao


 
Sí Puntitas, creo que ya lo sabíamos. Pero muchas gracias por tu aporte.

I wasn't aware of the latter two expressions, which may fit in perfectly.


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## fenixpollo

Otro buen hilo sobre Usted.

Saludos.


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## Outsider

O.K., I did a little research, and found the following:



> Usted
> 
> Some people have wondered if the Spanish formal second person pronoun _Usted_ came from the Arabic honorific _'usta:dh_. It doesn't; it's a well-attested abbreviation of _vuestra merced_ 'your mercy'. There are transitional forms such as _vuasted_, _vuesarced_, _voarced_ as well as parallel constructions like _usía_ from _vuestra señoría_, _ucencia_ from _vuestra excelencia_. [...] Finally, note that the abbreviation _Usted_ doesn't appear until 130 years after the Moors had been kicked out of Spain.
> 
> Scilang FAQ





> La aparición de "vuestra merced" tuvo lugar hacia la primera mitad del siglo XV y su evolución fonética comprende una larga serie de formas documentadas ("vuessa merçed", "vuesarçed", "vuesançed", "vourçed", "vuerçed", "vuarçed", "voaçed", "vueçed", "vuaçed", "vuçed", "uçed", "vuesansted", "vuesasted", "vosasted", "vuested", "vuasted", "vusted" y, finalmente, "usted", documentado por primera vez en 1620 en "El examinador de Miser Palomo" de Antonio Hurtado de Mendoza).
> 
> usted/ustedes


De vuestra merced a usted
pdf with enlightening tables


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## gotitadeleche

Puntitas said:
			
		

> Hola,
> 
> "Thy" y "thine" dejaron de usarse hace 200 años. Ahora solamente lo dicen personas que desean afectar un estilo antiguo o poético.
> 
> Pienso que "su merced" sería algo como "your worship" o "Your lordship/ladyship".
> 
> ciao



Another option would be "Your Grace"


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## diegodbs

MarcB said:
			
		

> thanks phryne vuestra merced makes more sense than su merced. but about 30 % of spanish has arabic origin from the 400 years Spain was controled by arabs. almost all the words that begin with al are of arabic origin.


 
The percentage of Spanish words that come from Latin, is about 75%, and from Arabic 17%.


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## Paul Wessen

VUESTRA MERCED.....

In the US, anyone unfortunate enough  to have to attend a court (of justice) is required to address the judge as  "Your Honor."    I think that must be pretty close to "Vuestra Merced."  This is the only occasion that I can think of where this form of address is used,

---------------------  Paul


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## Outsider

I suspect that in Spanish speaking countries "usted" would not be respectful enough to address a judge. There should be  a special form of address for it.


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## jmx

diegodbs said:
			
		

> The percentage of Spanish words that come from Latin, is about 75%, and from Arabic 17%.


As I have said at least in 2 threads that the percentage of Spanish words coming from Arabic is about 5%, and I don't want to be held as a liar, I've done a little research, with little success. All I've found on the net is this link, where the percentage is assessed at 8% :

http://www.aulaintercultural.org/IMG/pdf/63.quintana_mora.pdf

My own calculation was this : if there are 4,000 to 5,000 Arabic words in Spanish, and the number of entries in the RAE dictionary is around 87,000, then

5,000 / 87,000 = 0,0575 = 5,75%


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## diegodbs

jmartins said:
			
		

> As I have said at least in 2 threads that the percentage of Spanish words coming from Arabic is about 5%, and I don't want to be held as a liar, I've done a little research, with little success. All I've found on the net is this link, where the percentage is assessed at 8% :
> 
> http://www.aulaintercultural.org/IMG/pdf/63.quintana_mora.pdf
> 
> My own calculation was this : if there are 4,000 to 5,000 Arabic words in Spanish, and the number of entries in the RAE dictionary is around 87,000, then
> 
> 5,000 / 87,000 = 0,0575 = 5,75%


 
Tienes razón, no hice nada por verificar si ese 17% que vi en una información era correcto o no. Me conformé con ver que era inferior al 30% que citaba otra persona, y que me parecía excesivo.
You can be sure you won't be held as a liar.
Saludos.


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## Outsider

Algunas porcentajes pueden referirse al español medieval y otras al español actual. Sin duda, muchas palabras españolas de origen árabe no se usan más.


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## friedfysh

As I understand it (just an idea that ocurred to me), old spanish worked a lot like modern french, where tu was used informally and vos was used to address somebody formally. the conjugations being identical to those of modern vosotros, which was also used to address more than one person in all contexts formal or not. Vuestra merced is therefore referring to some aspect of the person rather then adressing the person directly. As "merced" is singular vuestra merced is followed by the 3rd person forms.. e.g. vuestra merced (usted) es español. 
Vuestra mercedes (ustedes) needs the same form as "they" because it refers to the mercedes and not the people directly.

una persona informal = tú (eres)
una persona formal - vos (sois)
más que una persona - vosotros (sois)
una persona (o más bien una de sus calidades) super formal- vuestra merced/usted (es)
más que una persona super formal - ustedes (son)

If there were such an equivalent in english it would be something like "your grace" so therefore "is your grace english" - "es usted inglés"

What does everyone think, have I solved this?


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## trevorb

Outsider said:


> I suspect that in Spanish speaking countries "usted" would not be respectful enough to address a judge. There should be a special form of address for it.


 
Creo haber oído en algún programa de la televisión española la palabra 'señoría' para llamar a la juez durante un juicio. Supongo que esto depende del país y probablemente del nivel del tribunal.


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## friedfysh

trevorb said:


> Creo haber oído en algún programa de la televisión española la palabra 'señoría' para llamar a la juez durante un juicio. Supongo que esto depende del país y probablemente del nivel del tribunal.


 yes, as far as I know a judge is referred to as "su señoría"


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## juliakbrown

Thy, thine, thee and thou are still used currently by Quakers; in my family we use them within the family but not outside of it.  Using the terms marks you as a Quaker to others.


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## friedfysh

juliakbrown said:


> Thy, thine, thee and thou are still used currently by Quakers; in my family we use them within the family but not outside of it. Using the terms marks you as a Quaker to others.


 
Some people in Yorkshire occassionally say "thee" but its more for a bit of fun, generally we use "you", however it is not uncommon to hear "hows thee?"


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## fenixpollo

The thread topic is the origin of Usted. Please continue the discussion of thee in one of the dozens of threads on the subject, such as these: 
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=22185
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=265871
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=129046

Thanks.


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## friedfysh

right well in that case could somebody please give me some feedback as to whether my theory about "usted" (see above) holds up?


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## fenixpollo

friedfysh said:
			
		

> right well in that case could somebody please give me some feedback as to whether my theory about "usted" (see above) holds up?


 I assume that you're referring to this post: 


friedfysh said:


> As I understand it (just an idea that ocurred to me), old spanish worked a lot like modern french, where tu was used informally and vos was used to address somebody formally. the conjugations being identical to those of modern vosotros, which was also used to address more than one person in all contexts formal or not. Vuestra merced is therefore referring to some aspect of the person rather then adressing the person directly. As "merced" is singular vuestra merced is followed by the 3rd person forms.. e.g. vuestra merced (usted) es español.
> Vuestra mercedes (ustedes) needs the same form as "they" because it refers to the mercedes and not the people directly.
> 
> una persona informal = tú (eres)
> una persona formal - vos (sois)
> más que una persona - vosotros (sois)
> una persona (o más bien una de sus calidades) super formal- vuestra merced/usted (es)
> más que una persona super formal - ustedes (son)
> 
> If there were such an equivalent in english it would be something like "your grace" so therefore "is your grace english" - "es usted inglés"
> 
> What does everyone think, have I solved this?


 If you read the other posts in this thread, you'll find that yes, it's been solved.





Outsider said:


> O.K., I did a little research, and found the following:
> De vuestra merced a usted
> pdf with enlightening tables





gotitadeleche said:


> Another option would be "Your Grace"


Saludos.


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## malumesa

Outsider said:


> I suspect that in Spanish speaking countries "usted" would not be respectful enough to address a judge. There should be a special form of address for it.


 
Hola foreros del mundo

Llego tarde al foro, pero igual deseo contribuir. 
En Costa Rica se usa: Señor Juez. 
He leído que en otros países se usa "Su Señoría" para dirigirse a un juez.

Espero haber contribuido con futuras referencias.

Saludos


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## Cruriousme

Phryne said:


> Hola Marc!
> 
> I don't think there's any arabic origin about it. "Usted" comes from the colonial expression "vuestra merced". Later it was shortened as "vuesa merced", then "vusted" and finally "usted".
> 
> How do you translate "vuestra merced". Perhaps as "your highness"? I'm not sure about this.
> 
> saludos


Hello Phryne or Marc!! I believe you already received an answer to your question but just in case from what I have heard, "Usted" does derive from the expression "Vuestra Merced" which in English is "Your Grace" not your highness. The expression comes from a time when Spanish as most Romance and non Romance languages used very polite terms when referring to strangers, thus one addressed others in the most polite way possible. As was shown in someone else's comment in this forum, "Vuestra Merced" was somehow distorted through continuous use in the new colonies and it became "Usted." Although Spanish does have a certain percentage of Arabic vestiges in it, this is not one of those or words. Words beginning with "Al" do have an Arabic origin such as "Almohada" = pillow, Alcohol... or Alcantarillado... = sewage system. I hope this helps..


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## Cruriousme

friedfysh said:


> As I understand it (just an idea that ocurred to me), old spanish worked a lot like modern french, where tu was used informally and vos was used to address somebody formally. the conjugations being identical to those of modern vosotros, which was also used to address more than one person in all contexts formal or not. Vuestra merced is therefore referring to some aspect of the person rather then adressing the person directly. As "merced" is singular vuestra merced is followed by the 3rd person forms.. e.g. vuestra merced (usted) es español.
> Vuestra mercedes (ustedes) needs the same form as "they" because it refers to the mercedes and not the people directly.
> 
> una persona informal = tú (eres)
> una persona formal - vos (sois)
> más que una persona - vosotros (sois)
> una persona (o más bien una de sus calidades) super formal- vuestra merced/usted (es)
> más que una persona super formal - ustedes (son)
> If there were such an equivalent in english it would be something like "your grace" so therefore "is your grace english" - "es usted inglés"
> 
> What does everyone think, have I solved this?


Hey Friedfysh, this sounds like a very good theory to me. Definitely, "vuestra merced" had to do both with a matter of form and style, the term was widely used in high society scenarios both at court and used by the aristocracy as well, where everyone used very refined language.


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## Cruriousme

josama said:


> I had never thought of it, but peasants from a central region in Colombia (more or less near Bogotá) use "Su merced" and "Vusté" to address other people (even their parents, kids, etc.)
> 
> But maybe because they are the only ones using them, sometimes they're mocked using the expression Vusté a lot... Never thought of it as a contraction of "vuesa merced"...
> 
> Some Colombian peasants from different regions use many other antique words as well, such as "fierro" for "hierro", "forno" for "horno" and many, many others...
> 
> I'm going to think it over...


Hey Josama, When I was in college I did hear what you are referring to and it is that in Colombia there are certain forms of Spanish used that are not heard anywhere else. I think it has to do with certain types of Archaic forms whose users are descendants of Spanish  settlers who came to the new world and brought those forms of 16th or 17th century Spanish with them.  The areas where these folks settled down were a bit remote and became perhaps a bit isolated in their geographical regions so the lack of contact with mainstream Colombia helped preserve those forms of speech. I believe in Colombia this phenomenon is more prevalent but I have heard from my cousin that our grandmother used the expression "ambos dos" to say "both" which my cousin thought it was funny because it sounded redundant. In my generation we just use "ambos" however when I got to think about the expression I realized that in other Romance languages such Italian and French, the current expression for "both"  is "Tutte i Due (Italian)" and "Tous les Deux (French)". So our grandmother was speaking correct grammatical Spanish all along, it was just Spanish from her generation.


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## Agró

From DPD:
*3. ambos (a) dos.* Esta locución, sinónima de _ambos,_ era muy frecuente en el español medieval y clásico, más con preposición (_ambos a dos_) que sin ella (_ambos dos_), y en estas dos formas ha pervivido hasta nuestros días: _«Ambas a dos terminarían diciendo_ [...] _lo contrario»_ (Verges _Cenizas_ [R. Dom. 1980]); _«El trueno fue Juncal Rivero y su madre, de negro y plata ambas dos»_ (_Vanguardia_ [Esp.] 2.11.95). *Por su carácter redundante, está en retroceso en el habla culta y se desaconseja su empleo.*



_Diccionario panhispánico de dudas ©2005
Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados
_
In Italian it's _tutti/tutte *e *due._


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