# نحن الحرائر إن مال الزمان بنا



## nn.om

نحن الحرائر إن مال الزمان بنا
لم نشكُ إلا إلى الرحمن بلوانا

A quote from the 4th chapter of the poetic play مجنون ليلى (how do you say this as well?) by Ahmad Shawqy. 

I want the translation of the first part of that stanza, please?

I wonder how الحرائر is translated. I thought I can translate it simply as "women" but I guess it has a more specific meaning than that, and the use of plurality isn't to refer to a generic value as it appears to me.

 So how would translate نحن الحرائرُ إن مالَ الزمانُ بنا  ? 
أن يميل الزمان بالمرء أن يظلمه هو وأهل ذاك الزمان أو شيء من هذا القبيل. ولكن كيف نترجمها بإنصاف وبشكل مقبول بالنسبة لنص شعري؟


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## WadiH

We are free women who when the times have oppressed us ... ?


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## Outlandish

we, women of honor, whenever we suffer from a reversal of fortune, ...
...whenever a reversal of fortune strikes us,...



PS
Free women has a different connotation than what is intended in the hemstitch.


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## cherine

I agree with Outlandish about "free women". Specially in modern times, it won't be understood without a note to explain the cultural differences between a free woman and a slave.

Maybe "honorable women"? or "women from good families"? Even if I don't like either of my own suggestions very much. 

As for إن مال الزمان بنا what about "when we have a misfortune"?


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## nn.om

I also think if there's a more specific meaning than "women," it'd be "free women." I studied that play when I was at secondary school and this word always reminds me of Immanuel Kant's idea of freedom which agrees with the Islamic philosophy of freedom. If this word really has something to do with that philosophy, than it wouldn't be "women from good families." 

Thanks for your attempts. Different choices but it's interesting.


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## Mahaodeh

cherine said:


> I agree with Outlandish about "free women". Specially in modern times, it won't be understood without a note to explain the cultural differences between a free woman and a slave.
> 
> Maybe "honorable women"? or "women from good families"? Even if I don't like either of my own suggestions very much.


 
That would be like expecting someone to change the religion of Shylock in "The Merchant of Venice" or make up a new reason why Heathcliff was able to take his wife's fortune in "Weathering Heights" because people these days do not know the differences between the culture back then and the culture now.

I would keep it as "free women" just as I would keep Shylock a Jew and have Heathcliff get everything because of an unjust law back then; if someone is really interested in the story, that someone would bother to read the little note.

Another difference between Majnoon Layla and the two examples above is that Majnoon Layla is a real man that actually existed and his story is real, while my two examples are of fiction created from the imagination of the authors; wile Shawqi's play is a "fictionised version" of the real thing, it makes it more understandable why one should be true to the meanings.

Moreover, I think this little is small and very easy to understand - it's a fact of life that free women have more dignity than slaves - that's why we hate slavery! Compare that with the basic thing that the whole story happened because of - how on earth are you going to help a Westerner (which is reading it in English - that's why it's being translated, right?) why Layla's father would not let her marry Qais and why she later refused to marry him and married someone else instead despite her love for him? You are going to have not only add a note, but a whole introduction.

I think the word حرائر is literal and it's very easy to understand, he doesn't mean "women of honor" nor "women from good families" – he means "free women" as opposed to "slave women".


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## post887

This might be a better way to reflect the difference to the English reader:

In general, حر means that there is no influence on someone's will.

If she is NOT being forced through the possession of her will by another party then it would mean FREE as in "free of slavery".

And If she is NOT being forced due to weakness of her own will or due to being indecent woman (WHILE there is no a forcing second party) then it would mean FREE as in "proud" (honorable or of good families).

In this poem the poet in my opinion is talking about the second case: the proud women.. not about the opposition to the slave ones.


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## nn.om

post887 said:


> If she is NOT being forced through the possession of her will by another party then it would mean FREE as in "free of slavery".
> 
> And If she is NOT being forced due to weakness of her own will or due to being indecent woman (WHILE there is no a forcing second party) then it would mean FREE as in "proud" (honorable or of good families).
> 
> In this poem the poet in my opinion is talking about the second case: the proud women.. not about the opposition to the slave ones.


 
I don't think so. 
قالت هند بنت عتبة: "أوتزني الحرة يا رسول الله؟" صلى الله عليه وسلم.
أقر الرسول الكريم -صلى الله عليه وسلم- هذه المقولة، وأعتقد أن منها أتت كلمة الحرائر ومفهوم الحرية في الثقافة الإسلامية والعربية. فالحرية هنا هي طاعة الله والاتيان بما تألفه النفس البشرية ويعتاد المجتمع عليه، وهي أيضاً الحرية نفسها لدى فلسفة إيمانويل كانْت الأخلاقية. 
يقول الشاعر: 
هممٌ لهم تسموا إذا ما رامها نجم الشمال
أفكارُهم خططٌ تقودُ الكلَّ نحو الاعتدال
لا يشتهون الدونَ أو أحوال أشباهِ الرجال
بل يشتهون الخوضَ في حربِ المداولة السِجال
يتعشقونَ الموتَ في أوساط ساحات القتال
ويرون أن الحرَّ عبدٌ إن توجه للضلال​
So, it's not about the freedom of slavery or being of good families, I guess ? 

And what do you think about In Maalaz Zamaanu Bina?


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## post887

I liked very much using *misfortune* to translate *إن مال الزمان بنا*. Well..

لا أحسبنا محتاجين إلى تمويهات فلسفية، فلا خلاف على ما قلت البتة، أليست الحرة في الحديث الذي أوردت هي المالكة لإرادتها غير المغصوبة؟ فهي بذلك التقدير إما المعتقة، وإما أن تكون كذلك كريمة المحتد ذات الحسب التي تأبى أن تأتي الشائن؟ وهذا هو المعنى الذي أرجحه في قولهن نحن الحرائر إن مال الزمان بنا لم نشكُ إلا إلى الرحمن بلوانا، لأن هذا من سمو النفس الأبية. والعرب تعلي من المروءة، وهي جامع لكل ما ارتفعت به النفس عن الدنايا، فذلك الحياء صون النفس عما يعيب، وتلك أخلاق الرجال لا يشتهون الدونَ أو أحوال أشباهِ الرجال، كما قال الشاعر.

والعرب تعبر بذات الحسب والنسب للشريفة مدحا لأن كل ذي أصل نبيل يأبى الدنيّ من الأمور فهو حرّ من العبودية للنفس، وذات الحسب حرة من الملك للغير فليست الأمة المملوكة بذات حسب محمود.

فعبودية الإنسان إما لغيره باستعباد مغصوب، وإما للنفس بتسلط الشهوات عليها ودنو قدرها. فبذلك الحرّ إن دنى وتولى الضلال، كما قال الشاعر العربي، عبدٌ وإن لم يكن مملوكا.


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## Faylasoof

How about these?

  A literal translation:
_We are free women when the times turn against us_

  A more idiomatic translation could be:
_We are noble (women) when the world turns against us
_ 
  Perhaps the second is better as it suggests a deeper and, I think, more appropriate meaning as “noble” behaviour  in times of distress and misfortune is a commendable act.


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## cherine

Mahaodeh said:


> I would keep it as "free women" just as I would keep Shylock a Jew and have Heathcliff get everything because of an unjust law back then; if someone is really interested in the story, that someone would bother to read the little note.
> [...] how on earth are you going to help a Westerner (which is reading it in English - that's why it's being translated, right?) why Layla's father would not let her marry Qais and why she later refused to marry him and married someone else instead despite her love for him? You are going to have not only add a note, but a whole introduction.
> 
> I think the word حرائر is literal and it's very easy to understand, he doesn't mean "women of honor" nor "women from good families" – he means "free women" as opposed to "slave women".


There's no need to be so upset, Maha. I too believe that notes are helpful, if not indispensable, for such texts. But, in case you need to translate this one verse and won't put notes, for a reason or another, you'll need to use a word that would be understood by the reader.
Don't forget that "free woman" can be either امرأة حرة or متحررة in Arabic. So, to avoid confusions, I thought we could search for another translation.

In these modern times, when we think of the opposite of "free", I don't think "slave" is the first word to come to mind. So, the meaning of the verse (or the whole cultural implication of the text) can be lost.



Faylasoof said:


> How about these?
> 
> A literal translation:
> _We are free women when the times turn against us_
> 
> A more idiomatic translation could be:
> _We are noble (women) when the world turns against us_
> 
> Perhaps the second is better as it suggests a deeper and, I think, more appropriate meaning as “noble” behaviour in times of distress and misfortune is a commendable act.


Sorry Faylasoof, but you missed the rest of the sentence, so your translation changed the meaning. It's not about being free or noble when times turn against us; it's about what free or noble women do when times turn against them.
So, to use your words, I'd say:
We, free/noble/honorable women, when the world/time turns against us, we turn/complain to no one but God.


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## Outlandish

I still insist that the large bulk of the western audience unfamiliar with Arabian culture will grasp "free women" as relevant to Woman Liberation Movement, or something of that sort


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## Faylasoof

cherine said:


> ...Sorry Faylasoof, but you missed the rest of the sentence, so your translation changed the meaning. It's not about being free or noble when times turn against us; it's about what free or noble women do when times turn against them.
> So, to use your words, I'd say:
> We, free/noble/honorable women, when the world/time turns against us, we turn/complain to no one but God.



Actually Cherine I did have the rest of the sentence in mind but didn’t realise that the way I put it would give it a different slant. 

As there seems to be a difference of opinion amongst us as to how best to translate this, I think I’d better explain what I was thinking and meant to say. 

Here I wasn’t suggesting being “noble” to mean high-born / belonging to the nobility etc. but being “_noble /  high-minded_ _in behaviour_”, which what follows suggests is turning to no one but God in times of oppression. Perhaps the _nobility of the soul_ is one way to put it. 

 I’m not sure if I’ve explained myself well or indeed if this is what the poet had his / her in mind (being out of the Arab cultural milieu I may have missed the point !), but this is how I took the meaning given the poetic, spiritual and philosophical environment I come from.


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## nn.om

Faylasoof said:


> Actually Cherine I did have the rest of the sentence in mind but didn’t realise that the way I put it would give it a different slant.
> 
> As there seems to be a difference of opinion amongst us as to how best to translate this, I think I’d better explain what I was thinking and meant to say.
> 
> Here I wasn’t suggesting being “noble” to mean high-born / belonging to the nobility etc. but being “_noble / high-minded_ _in behaviour_”, which what follows suggests is turning to no one but God in times of oppression. Perhaps the _nobility of the soul_ is one way to put it.
> 
> I’m not sure if I’ve explained myself well or indeed if this is what the poet had his / her in mind (being out of the Arab cultural milieu I may have missed the point !), but this is how I took the meaning given the poetic, spiritual and philosophical environment I come from.


 
I understood what you were saying there, Faylasoof. And to be honest I think your attempt was the best. 

Thank you everyone.


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## cherine

Outlandish said:


> I still insist that the large bulk of the western audience unfamiliar with Arabian culture will grasp "free women" as relevant to Woman Liberation Movement, or something of that sort


Yes, Outlandish, I agree with you about this. Without an explanatory note, western audience won't think about the free vs. slave contrast, but rather free vs. oppressed or something.


Faylasoof said:


> Actually Cherine I did have the rest of the sentence in mind but didn’t realise that the way I put it would give it a different slant.


It did give a different meaning -at least to me- because the way I understand it:
_We are noble/free when the world/times turns against us_
is: we act/become حرائر (whatever translation we'd give to this word  ) _*when*_ the world/time turns against us.
Maybe if we drop the verb to be your translation can be right.


> Here I wasn’t suggesting being “noble” to mean high-born / belonging to the nobility etc. but being “_noble /  high-minded_ _in behaviour_”, which what follows suggests is turning to no one but God in times of oppression. Perhaps the _nobility of the soul_ is one way to put it.


This would be beautiful, but is not what the context is about. I don't know if you've heard about the story of قيس وليلى so here's a very brief summary: Qais was Layla's cousin and very in love with her that he wrote so many poems about her and his love to her. Layla being a "free woman" (as versus to "slave") and from a good family this was considered a kind of slander in the Arabic tradition, so his father couldn't give her to marriage to the man who spoke publicly about her in his poems, lest the people would think that the two lovers were having an illicit affair or something. So, they never got married.
(Here's the Wikipedia entry about these two famous lovers).
So, to say that a woman is حرة is a social degree: she's nobody's slave, she's of a good family, she's decent, and she's not to be spoken of in poetry. 
Nobility of the soul and/or the behavior comes naturally (or expected to be so) for a girl of her status.


> I’m not sure if I’ve explained myself well or indeed if this is what the poet had his / her in mind (being out of the Arab cultural milieu I may have missed the point !)


The poet is أحمد شوقي one of Egypt's greatest poets. The verse is question is taken from his poetical play مجنون ليلى .


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## Faylasoof

cherine said:


> ....I don't know if you've heard about the story of قيس وليلى....



Yes, I have! This story has been related throughout the Muslim world and in Perisan-Urdu traditions is known by the title ليلى و مجنون .




> So, to say that a woman is حرة is a social degree: she's nobody's slave, she's of a good family, she's decent, and she's not to be spoken of in poetry.



This idea, incidentally, is not restricted to Arab culture. In our poetic traditions too of Persian and Urdu we never mention the  beloved by name. That would be taken as an insult. I think this is generally a part of the Islamic tradition.



> Nobility of the soul and/or the behavior comes naturally (or expected to be so) for a girl of her status.



Ah! I think this is where we differ as the tradition I was brought up in,  status (depending on its definition) and nobility of the soul do not always go together. They are in fact separable.



> The poet is أحمد شوقي one of Egypt's greatest poets. The verse is question is taken from his poetical play مجنون ليلى .



Oh yes! I have come across Shauqi (though not this work), amongst other more recent Arab poets / writers like Darwesh, Adonis, Jordaq, Salamah, Nu3aymah, Qabbani and of course Gibran.

I think it has been an interesting discussion!


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## cherine

Faylasoof said:


> This idea, incidentally, is not restricted to Arab culture. In our poetic traditions too of Persian and Urdu we never mention the  beloved by name. That would be taken as an insult. I think this is generally a part of the Islamic tradition.


Not necessarily; because it was the same in الشعر الجاهلي so I guess it's more of being a conservative society or not, rather than being Islamic or not.


> Ah! I think this is where we differ as the tradition I was brought up in,  status (depending on its definition) and nobility of the soul do not always go together. They are in fact separable.


Of course they're separable. I meant to say that a girl from a good family is *expected* to well behave.  Whether she does so or not, is up to her.


> Oh yes! I have come across Shauqi (though not this work), amongst other more recent Arab poets / writers like Darwesh, Adonis, Jordaq, Salamah, Nu3aymah, Qabbani and of course Gibran.


Yep, but he's from an older generation than them. He was one of the pioneers of Arabic poetry the renovation in the late 18th century, along with محمود سامي البارودي .


> I think it has been an interesting discussion!


I agree :


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