# IE root of "ludus" (Persian لاغ)



## saintali

Hi,
Does any one know how the IE root "leid-" was attested for ludus (game-playing)? 
I know of Greek loidoros (abusive) which seems quite suspicious itself. There is a Persian word لاغ /laagh/ (joke) which may also be related, but I do not know its actual root.

I wish this is the right forum to ask this.


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## saintali

The Latin word ludus means game-playing. It can be found for example in English words allude, prelude, ludicrous, etc.
I wonder whether the Persian word لاغ (Joke, شوخی) is of the same root.
Latin dictionaries refer to an Indo-European root leid- for ludus, but I could not find any other Indo-Iranian cognate for it.
Thanks


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## Lamb67

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=play&searchmode=none

We may have a look at LUDICROUS right after PLAYFUL.


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## saintali

Thanks, but unfortunately that does not say where *leid- comes from.


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## Quiviscumque

saintali said:


> Hi,
> Does any one know how the IE root "leid-" was attested for ludus (game-playing)



From Ernout-Meillet:

L'_u_ représente une ancianne diphtongue _oi_, attestée par les formes épigraphiques _loidos, loedos_ [...]
Il n'y a guère de termes indo-européens connus pour cette notion; et il peut s'agir d'un terme emprunté avec l'institution, sans doute religieuse, qu'il désignait; l'origine étrusque est des plus probables [...] Racine commune au grec et a l'étrusque?


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## Maggŭs

One of the meanings of &#1604;&#1575;&#1594;, as you mentioned, is playful joking, mockery and things of that sort. Hoverer, I can't be so sure about their being cognates. 

But ludus immediately reminds me of the Persian word &#1604;&#1608;&#1583;&#1711;&#1610; which has almost the same meaning. Please note that the &#1711;&#1610;in the Farsi word and the -us in the Latin word are both morphological elements, and are not valuable as far as cognates are concerned.

What do you think?


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## seitt

I would certainly relate لاغ to Iceland leika (to play) – this is also in accordance with Grimm’s law (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_law)

Simon


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## diamanti

λοίδορος (loidoros): problemat. etymol.
1. λοίδορος<*λοιδος [lat. ludus<loedus, Cic. _de legg. 2.22 _(game-playing)]
2. λοίδορος<σανσκ. lunati (break?)


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## Maggŭs

That page doesn't clarify the possible sound shifts that might have taken place in Persian. 

1. &#1594; is a rare Persian sound and most of the words in which the sound was used are Arabic. Don't forget that in Farsi there's
 no difference between &#1594;  and&#1602;  in pronunciation. Here's some information quoted by  &#1570;&#1606;&#1606;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;&#1580;: 
'' Rashidi indicates that this sound is rare in Persian and it would be more appropriate to turn it into the Arabic &#1580;.''

Now, what was the Icelandic or proto-Indo-European sound that was turned into&#1594; in Persian? Can anyone come up with other examples? Can you give us some Germanic examples?


2. It's tempting to believe they are cognates: /l oo d/ and /l a: R/. But first empirical evidence!


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## sokol

Mod note:
Two threads have been merged (from Latin and IIR forum) as both topics are closely related.


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## Quiviscumque

If you consult _leid-_ in the "on-line Pokorny" you can see that no Indo-Iranian nor Germanic word is cited.


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## seitt

Many thanks for the excellent link.

I must confess, up till now I haven't been an expert in etymology, but with this link, well, who knows?

All the best, and many thanks again,

Simon


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## Frank06

seitt said:


> I would certainly relate لاغ to Iceland leika (to play) – this is also in accordance with Grimm’s law (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_law)


I'm sorry, but this argument is not going to bring us very far. By definition Grimm's Law describes the situation in the Germanic languages. Grimm's Law doesn't say anything about Persian.


> a set of statements describing the inherited Proto-Indo-European (PIE) stops as they developed *in Proto-Germanic* (PGmc, the common ancestor of the Germanic branch of the Indo-European family) in the 1st millennium BC.



Frank


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## saintali

Quiviscumque said:


> From Ernout-Meillet:
> 
> L'_u_ représente une ancianne diphtongue _oi_, attestée par les formes épigraphiques _loidos, loedos_ [...]
> Il n'y a guère de termes indo-européens connus pour cette notion; et il peut s'agir d'un terme emprunté avec l'institution, sans doute religieuse, qu'il désignait; l'origine étrusque est des plus probables [...] Racine commune au grec et a l'étrusque?



Thanks. So if there were no related word outside of Latin and Greek, then the most likely assumption would be an Etruscan origin, given their geographic proximity. But it will be better to consider all possible cognates before concluding that.


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## saintali

Maggŭs said:


> But ludus immediately reminds me of the Persian word لودگي which has almost the same meaning.



Very intriguing! Can we be sure that the word لوده is old enough? I mean, do you know any use of it in Persian classics? Unfortunately Dehkhoda does not provide examples for this word


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## Maggŭs

saintali said:


> Very intriguing! Can we be sure that the word لوده is old enough? I mean, do you know any use of it in Persian classics? Unfortunately Dehkhoda does not provide examples for this word


 
That's a perfect question.
Unfortunately, I couldn't find any instances in classical works. Yet, it must have an origin.

About   &#1604;&#1575;&#1594;:
I can't be absolutely sure, but I didn't find any instances of this word is Shahname, so it can't be a very old word. Furthermore, there's a confusion about its meaning: I personally imagine it has something to with the Arabic &#1604;&#1575;&#1594;  which means null, invalid... . 
The word in Farsi, might have undergone extension, or it may be a case of homonymy:


1. Tress
2. A unit of counting; bundle.
3. Mockery
4. Useless ( which seems to be very close to the Arabic meanings)
5. Plaything


Are you certain about its being an originally Indo-European word?


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