# Icelandic: usage of 'fyrir' with accusative/dative



## Alxmrphi

Quick question....

This title appeared on RUV news tonight, and I know* fyrir* usually governs the accusative and I ignored it at first, then when I thought about it, I realised it didn't really make sense.
I know when you use a dative object with* fyrir *it can mean *in front of*, or *ago*.... along with the word for *promises*....

Does it mean* before *in this sense?
I'm a little confused.

Thanks
Alex


----------



## sindridah

Alex i hope i'm not misunderstanding anything here , But did you forgot to bring the title to answer your question ? I can't see anything that i can answer from

UPZ! i noticed! 

It's about politics, Loan for campaign pledge. They are taking loan because of the campaign promises. I don't know how i can answer it better, i hope that answers the question. But no, before does not make sense in this case


----------



## Jan-Erik

Hi, Alxmrphi .., and Sindri, for that matter.. 
 This one's a delicate detail in Icelandic, I think (the language is indeed delicate in itself). "fyrir" does sometimes govern the dative and the prepositional phrase then has a totally different meaning than it would have with the accusative (which I'm sure you realized already).
"fyrir" + D.   can be a local adverb meaning "in front of smth", though most often I think you'd say "fyrir framan" + A.
 This is not the case here but I thought I'd mention it. This particular use of "fyrir" + D. occurs when the NP in dative is something that is to be achieved/procured/had/gotten ... Hence, the loan(s) is (/are) taken in order to achieve/get/procure "loforð" ..
Here's another example: dv.is/frettir/2010/4/12/radin-til-landsbankans-eftir-ad-hafa-veitt-lan-fyrir-honum
Besides from "lán fyrir + D.", this kind of "fyrir" + D. also occurs in "að vera spenntur fyrir einhverju", and I just googled "pening fyrir þessu" etc etc-
"fyrir" in the meaning "before" as a temporal adverb would govern the accusative: "gerðist fyrir jólin" ("happened before Christmas") ..


----------



## Alxmrphi

Hi Jan,

That makes sense, yes!
So you could also say "_Loan for promises_" (a loan in order to achieve / fulfill the promise...) as "promises" here is also an NP to be achieved (with the help of a loan).

The only thing that's a bit unclear now is: "_að vera spenntur fyrir einhverju_" - I don't see how this is the same meaning, this just looks like "_to be excited about something_" ?
Actually, on a completely unrelated (but very relevant note) this construction has just popped up in a dialogue I am reading:



> HÖSKULDUR: Ég *er ekki mikið spenntur fyrir íþróttum* heldur, en mér finnst voða gott
> að fá útrás með líkamlegri áreynslu fyrst ég vinn kyrrsetustarf. Mér líður illa þegar ég
> fæ ekki tækifæri til að hreyfa mig, þess vegna skokka ég á hverjum degi. Ég vil
> komast í gott form…


.... with the explanation "að vera spenntur fyrir + (dat)" - to be excited about, this makes sense, but like I mentioned before, I can see this is fyrir + dative with a different meaning (than the one about needing something in order to achieve / obtain something else).

So all in all, I think I get it now.

*Fyrir + dat* is used when you show that the object of the preposition is something to be achieved / procured (by the subject of the sentence), and also in things like:

_Að vera fyrir + acc
Að vera spenntur fyrir + dat_

_To like  ... + (a lot)
To be excited about / keen on ... +_ 

Not sure about the reasons for this but that seems to be the _case_ (pardon the pun )

Thanks again.
Alex


----------



## Jan-Erik

I'm sorry, I thought of "loforð" as "good reputation/renown" .. that's what "lovord" is in Norw.  .... yes, it's "promises" ... ..  Yes,I guess you could say "fulfill" and "achieve" .. it's really the same, isn't it, when it comes to "promises" .. they took the loan in the 'anticipation' of getting/achieving/procuring (etc etc) "loforð" ..  'anticipation' is also a good key word regarding this use of "fyrir"+D.  I just had a look at the article. They have to take loans/borrow money in order to do what they've actually promised the city .. yes.. This was a tough one, though, I think .. many other cases are much more dead on , kind of


----------



## Jan-Erik

Yes, I was actually going to mention that "spenntur fyrir + D." before ..
Yes, you're on the right track here ...
Icelandic can be a difficult language ....


----------



## Alxmrphi

> This was a tough one, though, I think .. many other cases are much more  dead on , kind of


Indeed! 
I can see how it made a completely different kind of sense to you, with* lovord *meaning *good reputation*!


> Yes, I was actually going to mention that "spenntur fyrir + D." before  ..


You did mention it 

Thanks again for your help, it's so much clearer when someone else runs through it independently!
I also for some reason didn't even think about the promises for what they've said they would do for the city, but that's exactly it, they need the loan to do all the things they said (promised) they would, clear as day


----------



## Jan-Erik

If I'm not mistaken "fyrir + dative" can in some cases have the feature 'causative', the PP making an 'adverb of cause', that what's causing something .. I have a hunch this isn't as common in modern Icelandic, in texts from the 11th century and onward you can find some of them. .. If I were to compose a sentence it could be something like
"Það er ekkert hægt að sjá fyrir sólinni / öskunni í loftinu" etc..
Even older people from where I'm from in Western Norway use constructions like this sometimes.
(I remember once hearing this English 'proverb' quoted on Seinfeld, which I think has the same use of "for":
"Sometimes you cannot see the forest for the trees." I could be mistaken, though.)


----------



## Alxmrphi

> (I remember once hearing this English 'proverb' quoted on Seinfeld,  which I think has the same use of "for":
> "Sometimes you cannot see the forest for the trees." I could be  mistaken, though.)



No no you're right, it's a fairly idiomatic use but that's correct, but here the P *for* has the meaning of because of, not really causative, but yet also in a sense causative (the trees causing the blockage of the sun, etc).

What would the English be for the old fashioned Icelandic sentences you quoted ("Það er ekkert hægt að sjá fyrir sólinni / öskunni í loftinu"  etc..) I presume *because of*, again? I am going to guess (You can't see anything because of the ash in the sky[?])


----------



## Jan-Erik

Alxmrphi said:


> but here the P *for* has the meaning of because of, not really causative, but yet also in a sense causative (the trees causing the blockage of the sun, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've edited this post here quite a lot now, but I came to think of how this "for" phrase and the "fyrir+dat." in Icel. can be narrowed in by describing the NPs after the prep. for/fyrir as hindrances, obstacles. I came to think of this when I realized that "fyrir+acc.", too, can have this causal feature, "fyrir þær sakir" springs to my mind. Alxmrphi, you were right in your suspicion.
Click to expand...


----------

