# 'miss' to address a lady out on the street



## HSS

The Oxford Dictionary says using 'miss' to call someone you don't know, who may be seeing on the street or somewhere, is polite. But a friend from the U.S. told me we'd better not use it that way. It's against gender equality. Being married or not doesn't matter. Men only have mister. Should you avoid calling someone miss? Hello, miss!



> Oxford Dictionary
> Used as a polite form of address to a young woman or to a waitress, etc.
> _Where will you be staying in England, miss?_


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## Copyright

I wouldn't say "Hello, Miss" any more than I would say "Hello, Mister." Avoid them both and just say "Hello" or "Good morning" or something relevant to the time of day.


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## HSS

Hi, Copy.

How about if you want to catch a woman's attention because you just picked up a belonging of hers. Would it hurt if you said 'Excuse me, miss'?


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## Copyright

You could or, again, you could just say, "Excuse me" or "Excuse me, you dropped this." Some of the decision will depend on the age of the people involved. "Miss" can more acceptably be used by older people.


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## sound shift

I never use "miss." I don't hear it from other BrE speakers, either.


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## fiercediva

The older the AE speaker is who uses it the less ire the person may encounter. The problem is that its use (or "ma'am" or "lady") means that the person has made assumptions about your age and possible marital status based on your appearance and your gender. Since that is an antiquated viewpoint, it's easier not to use anything so specific that could be so inaccurate or give offense.


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## rhitagawr

Schoolchildren address even married lady teachers as _miss_. But some teachers would insist on _Miss/Mrs Jones_ or whatever. 
I don't think I'd ever say _miss _to anyone. At the very least it would sound old-fashioned. I'd address someone as _Miss Smith_ if that was how she wanted to be addressed. But it could sound spinsterish.
In the United Kingdom, the Queen and lady officers in the armed forces and the police are addressed as _ma'am_. You certainly wouldn't address a stranger as _ma'am_. And _lady_ would be even worse. If I were a shopkeeper, I'd address my lady customers as _madam_.
_Mrs/missus_ as an appellation would be impolite or argumentative. _Listen, Mrs. I can park here if I want to_.
I agree with Copyright. You can show politeness through your general demeanour without using any particular appellation.


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## Wordsmyth

I agree with everyone else. That Oxford Dictionary usage is pretty outdated now, except in a very limited number of situations. Dictionaries often take a while to catch up with changes in common practice.

Ws


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## natkretep

Is it not possible for it to be used in some very specific situations still? Rhitagawr has mentioned female teachers. I'm imagining someone at a hotel reception who might normally address adult guests as 'Sir' and 'Madam', and then turn to the 16-year-old daughter of a guest and address her as 'Miss'.


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## HSS

How would it be if a high school teacher called one of his female students in his class 'young lady'? 'What do you think of this solution, young lady?' I bet this would be when he is giving her some sort of warning or something, wouldn't it?


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## Thomas Tompion

HSS said:


> How would it be if a high school teacher called one of his female students in his class 'young lady'? 'What do you think of this solution, young lady?' I bet this would be when he is giving her some sort of warning or something, wouldn't it?


That's the sort of thing schoolteachers say to students when they (the schoolteachers) are really angry.

Because we don't use these appellations much at all, as we have been telling you, Hiro, poor teachers apply them when they wish to make a student feel ill at ease.


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## HSS

I figured just as much. They address them so when they are reprimanding.

This reminded me of "young'un (spelling?)," shorthand for "young man," used jokingly by the mother of the family that I stayed with in the U.S. when she called to me. But this is for another thread ...


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## rhitagawr

natkretep said:


> Is it not possible for it to be used in some very specific situations still? Rhitagawr has mentioned female teachers. I'm imagining someone at a hotel reception who might normally address adult guests as 'Sir' and 'Madam', and then turn to the 16-year-old daughter of a guest and address her as 'Miss'.


This is possible, although I don't know if the daughter would be expecting it. Personally I wouldn't regard it as impolite to omit the _miss_.
My old Uncle Fred of blessed memory once addressed a young lady as _miss_. He was being polite, but I thought it was formal and old-fashioned.


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## Thomas Tompion

Part of the problem for non-English nationals is that in many other languages it can be impolite not to use this sort of appellation.

Here in France it's usual and polite to give such an acknowledgement when talking to a stranger.

When I first went to France as a boy, my father took me aside and pointed out that I was going to a country where it was not polite to address a woman without indicating whether or not I thought she was married.

He added, characteristically, that his advice was that if I thought she was married, say 'Mademoiselle' (Miss), and, if I thought she wasn't, say 'Madame' (Madam).

It's advice I've followed ever since, with excellent results.


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## fiercediva

Thomas Tompion said:


> Part of the problem for non-English nationals is that in many other languages it can be impolite not to use this sort of appellation.
> 
> Here in France it's usual and polite to give such an acknowledgement when talking to a stranger.
> 
> When I first went to France as a boy, my father took me aside and pointed out that I was going to a country where it was not polite to address a woman without indicating whether or not I thought she was married.
> 
> He added, characteristically, that his advice was that if I thought she was married, say 'Mademoiselle' (Miss), and, if I thought she wasn't, say 'Madame' (Madam).
> 
> It's advice I've followed ever since, with excellent results.



This works well most of the time when you are sure of your guess -- the Mademoiselle is obviously a minor child, the Madame has kids in tow, a wedding ring, etc.

The gray area comes when you don't have such clear indications - someone who looks younger/older than they really are, or who does not wish to be told they appear to be a certain age. There are parallels in other languages  - calling a Korean woman an _ahjumma _(or a man an _ahjussi)_ when they would rather be thought of as an older sibling to the speaker vs. a person a generation older. It's of a piece with asking a woman when her baby is due when you're not sure if she's visibly pregnant or merely plump!


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## Mr.Dent

Throughout the American South the use of the word "ma'am" is appropriate.


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## Thomas Tompion

fiercediva said:


> This works well most of the time when you are sure of your guess -- the Mademoiselle is obviously a minor child, the Madame has kids in tow, a wedding ring, etc.
> 
> The gray area comes when you don't have such clear indications - someone who looks younger/older than they really are, or who does not wish to be told they appear to be a certain age. There are parallels in other languages  - calling a Korean woman an _ahjumma _(or a man an _ahjussi)_ when they would rather be thought of as an older sibling to the speaker vs. a person a generation older. It's of a piece with asking a woman when her baby is due when you're not sure if she's visibly pregnant or merely plump!


Hi Fiercediva,

I don't think you have enjoyed the irony in my father's advice, or maybe I didn't enjoy the irony in your statement.  I didn't ask him whether I should take the ploy to the point of calling a woman who was obviously pregnant 'Mademoiselle'.  I know he would have enjoyed the idea.

I remember wondering whether the advice applied to the manner of address of the Mother Superior of the local nunnery.

The Englishman's avoidance of such niceties of etiquette is of a piece with our abruptness in general.

Here, in France, a supermarket operative who you don't know will look askance at your rudeness if you don't wish him 'Good morning!' before asking to what part of the shop he's moved the smoked duck's breast.  In England such formality might lead him to imagine you had some sort of designs on him.


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## fiercediva

Thomas Tompion said:


> Hi Fiercediva,
> 
> I don't think you have enjoyed the irony in my father's advice, or maybe I didn't enjoy the irony in your statement.  I didn't ask him whether I should take the ploy to the point of calling a woman who was obviously pregnant 'Mademoiselle'.  I know he would have enjoyed the idea.
> 
> I remember wondering whether the advice applied to the manner of address of the Mother Superior of the local nunnery.
> 
> The Englishman's avoidance of such niceties of etiquette is of a piece with our abruptness in general.
> 
> Here, in France, a supermarket operative who you don't know will look askance at your rundeness if you don't wish him 'Good morning!' before asking to what part of the shop he's moved the smoked duck's breast.  In England such formality might lead him to imagine you had some sort of designs on him.



And I only meant the first part of my answer to apply to your miss/madame post. Apologies if I accidentally offended you in my insomniac, early-morning posting! 

I should have said, returning to the idea of the OP's question IN GENERAL, using a form of speech that shows that one is making assumptions about the person being addressed is a slippery slope, and I provided an example closer to the bottom of that slope.


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## rhitagawr

If Mr Dent addressed a British woman as _ma'am_, I'd think he was being polite because that's what Americans say. If HSS did the same, I'd put it down to the American influence in some way. If I did the same, it would sound ridiculous.
I'm not sure the English are abrupt, as Thomas seems to think, although I can see why the French should think they are. It's probably a matter of perception.
I initially found it strange that a customer should address the shopkeeper as _monsieur_ or _madame_. To my English ears, _monsieur_ and _madame _imply deference_._


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## JustKate

Wow. How interesting the world is, to be sure. I hear _miss_ and _ma'am_ used all the time, so clearly some of the considerations about whether _miss_ is OK are regional ones. Even here, _miss_ isn't used in place of a name, so you wouldn't address a teacher or anyone else whose name you know as _miss_. But when you need to attract the attention of a stranger - e.g., "Excuse me, miss, I think you dropped this" (or "excuse me, ma'am") - it's still very common here. I don't think it sounds rude to say "Excuse me" without the _miss_, but it's still very common and very accepted.


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## Thomas Tompion

fiercediva said:


> And I only meant the first part of my answer to apply to your miss/madame post. Apologies if I accidentally offended you in my insomniac, early-morning posting!


I wasn't in the least offended.  I just got the impression that you hadn't noticed what some would regard as the perversity in my father's advice.

While the Englishman is famously curt on the surface, the same cannot be said of the English woman.  A man of any age visiting a store in the north of England and can expect any woman over about thirty-five to address him as 'My darling'.  Foreigners are often bemused by this, and must learn not to think that any intimacy, or potential intimacy, is implied.  It's just their way of being friendly, and very friendly it is.  Although I come from Manchester, it surprises and delights me every time I go home.

Again, this is not something a foreigner should try, until they've lived at least eighty years north of the Trent.


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## Thomas Tompion

rhitagawr said:


> If Mr Dent addressed a British woman as _ma'am_, I'd think he was being polite because that's what Americans say. If HSS did the same, I'd put it down to the American influence in some way. If I did the same, it would sound ridiculous.
> I'm not sure the English are abrupt, as Thomas seems to think, although I can see why the French should think they are. It's probably a matter of perception.
> I initially found it strange that a customer should address the shopkeeper as _monsieur_ or _madame_. To my English ears, _monsieur_ and _madame _imply deference_._


I think you make several interesting points, as usual, Rhita.

A.  Like you, I interpret these formulae of politeness as indicative of a person's, particularly of a foreigner's, linguistic and social background.

B.  Maybe I find the English abrupt because I'm used to the very elaborate formal politeness of the French, maybe particularly to that of the French country people among whom I live.  For instance I'm surprised and sometimes irritated by the manners of my nephew's otherwise delightful children.  I couldn't arrive in a French house without being affectionately kissed by all the children capable of walking; and kissing round here means three smackers, right-left-right.  My nephew's children just get on with their crosswords or their books or whatever, with a casual 'Hello' across their shoulders, not even troubling to look up.  I'm irritated by it maybe because it's so far from what I'm used to.

C.  The point about deference.  There is a social element to it, certainly.  I say Monsieur, Madame, or whatever, to people who come into my shop, and they say Monsieur to me, but that's because I'm old and grey and full of sleep.  They wouldn't say the equivalent to one of my young assistants, because the assistants are young, and obviously not in charge.  I say Madame to the girl on the check-out of the supermarket, but not Monsieur to the boy stacking the tins of boudins blancs.  I think this is partly because of age, partly because of status in the hierarchy of the enterprise.  The mechanics in my garage I call by their first names, right up to the workshop boss; if the manager appeared, someone I don't know, I would call him Monsieur.  I think I'm pretty usual in this, though the mechanics tell me that most customers don't know their first names, and don't call them anything, as in England.


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## Mr.Dent

When writing to a woman whose marital status is unknown to me, I generally use the term "Ms." That way I know I can't go wrong.


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## Wordsmyth

Wordsmyth said:


> That Oxford Dictionary usage is pretty outdated now, except in a very limited number of situations.


 In the light of Kate's comment (and indeed some of my own experience in the US), I should have said "pretty outdated in the UK".



natkretep said:


> Is it not possible for it to be used in some very specific situations still? Rhitagawr has mentioned female teachers. I'm imagining someone at a hotel reception who might normally address adult guests as 'Sir' and 'Madam', and then turn to the 16-year-old daughter of a guest and address her as 'Miss'.


 As I said, Nat, in a limited number of situations, yes. Possibly the hotel receptionist, and perhaps even more so with, say, a 10-year-old daughter; (16-year-olds tend, in my experience, to prefer being spoken to in the same way as adults).

As for teachers, Rhita also mentioned that some teachers would insist on _Miss/Mrs Jones_ or whatever. From conversations I've had with a number of friends who are UK schoolteachers, I get the impression that _Miss/Mrs + name_ is far more common than the rapidly disappearing _"Miss"_ on its own. (Similarly for _Mr + name_, rather than _"Sir"_.) Even back in my schooldays, we always used the teachers' names, and not _Miss/Sir_ alone.



Thomas Tompion said:


> A man of any age visiting a store in the north of England and can expect any woman over about thirty-five to address him as 'My darling'.


 That's much like the Bristolian "My love", or even "my luvver" (again from women, usually over a certain age, addressing either men or women; or from men, addressing women). And in Devon there's "M'dear" (though I don't know how current it is: I guess Andy would know). Except in more formal shops, hotels, etc, such friendly expressions are probably more common than _Miss, Madam _and _Sir_, which in some situations can even seem rather obsequious.

Ws
_[Edit: typo]_​


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## rhitagawr

Lady shop assistants occasionally address me as _love_ or even _darling_. At my age, it's rather flattering. I occasionally address a lady as _love_ on the street if I think she wouldn't mind. Perhaps I shouldn't, but no one's objected so far. Perhaps they're too polite.


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## Ashraful Haque

Mr.Dent said:


> Throughout the American South the use of the word "ma'am" is appropriate.


So it would be alright to address an American lady as Ma'am? For example if  I say "Ma'am I think you dropped something."
How about if the person is a guy? Or should I just stick to good old 'excuse me?'


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## GreenWhiteBlue

It would be entirely natural in the US to say to a woman whose name you don't know "ma'am, I think you dropped something."  I also agree with JustKate in post #20 above: if one were trying to attract the attention of a woman of any age in order to tell her that, for example, she left her umbrella behind when she was leaving a bus, I would find it entirely natural to hear "Miss!  Miss!  You forgot your umbrella!".  In fact, I have not only heard this, but have said things like this myself on more than one occasion.  Another possibility that one might hear from middle aged or older people, and especially men, is "Lady" (as in "Hey lady, you forgot your umbrella!), but that is far less polite.

When addressing a man in the same circumstances in the US (that is, you don't know his name, and you want to get his attention), the equivalent is "Sir" (as in "Sir!  Sir! You forgot your umbrella!")  The possible, but less polite alternative, is "mister" (as in "Hey, mister!  Your umbrella!)


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## kentix

Ashraful Haque said:


> So it would be alright to address an American lady as Ma'am? For example if I say "Ma'am I think you dropped something."


It would generally be fine if she was old enough. You don't want to say that to a 25-year-old probably. She would think you think she's an old(er) lady. It would be fine with someone 45 or 55 or 65 in an impersonal situation like that described of quickly trying to get their attention if they dropped something. If you were having a one-on-one conversation with her you would not likely call her that.

It might be a bit old-fashioned but it's considered preferable to "Hey you!" or "Hey!"

The first part is to attract attention. The second part is to explain why.

"Ma'am! You dropped your wallet." You don't want to have to shout the whole second line so you get their attention first.

"Hey, you! You dropped your wallet." "Hey, you!" or "Hey!" might get their attention but it doesn't sound very polite.

Lots of older women in the American South, especially black women, are traditionally referred to by younger people they know, as Miss <first name>.

So Miss Sarah might be the name used for an older family friend named Sarah. "Say goodbye to Miss Sarah." If you go into a restaurant where the employees wear name tags it will even say that on their name tag. Miss Mary. Miss Brenda.


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## Mr.Dent

Ashraful Haque said:


> So it would be alright to address an American lady as Ma'am? For example if I say "Ma'am I think you dropped something."


That would be a nice polite way to address a woman. In the American South it would not be considered a bit old-fashioned. Instead, many would regard it as a sign of a good upbringing. I do not believe that it would be rude to say that to a 25-year-old. I have done that myself. It is simply the way that people speak in this part of the country. In New York City what Kentix said is more applicable.



Ashraful Haque said:


> How about if the person is a guy? Or should I just stick to good old 'excuse me?'


If you wish to be polite and want something in the same register as Ma'am, you could say Sir. "Sir I think you dropped something."


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## kentix

I'm not going to call a 25-year-old woman ma'am even in the South, especially at my age - unless maybe she had two kids in tow and was clearly already in the married/domestic/middle class demographic. If she looked, young and single and barely out of college, ma'am would be off the table.

I'm not saying it would be rude. But it just wouldn't fit.

You're free to use it, though.


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## Ashraful Haque

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> It would be entirely natural in the US to say to a woman whose name you don't know "ma'am, I think you dropped something."  I also agree with JustKate in post #20 above: if one were trying to attract the attention of a woman of any age in order to tell her that, for example, she left her umbrella behind when she was leaving a bus, I would find it entirely natural to hear "Miss!  Miss!  You forgot your umbrella!".  In fact, I have not only heard this, but have said things like this myself on more than one occasion.  Another possibility that one might hear from middle aged or older people, and especially men, is "Lady" (as in "Hey lady, you forgot your umbrella!), but that is far less polite.
> 
> When addressing a man in the same circumstances in the US (that is, you don't know his name, and you want to get his attention), the equivalent is "Sir" (as in "Sir!  Sir! You forgot your umbrella!")  The possible, but less polite alternative, is "mister" (as in "Hey, mister!  Your umbrella!)


I think I've heard this in romantic movies. A lady drops something and a guy calls out to her like that and the rest is history.
So is it basically 'Ma'am' for older women and 'Miss' for young beautiful ladies?


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## Thomas Tompion

Ashraful Haque said:


> [...]
> 'Miss' for young beautiful ladies?


It's _*Miss*_ for the ugly ones too.

The determining factor is the age.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Not for me it isn't.  Instead, the determining factor is the customary practice of wherever it is you are.  I have addressed women over 60 in this fashion as "Miss!" (because "Ma'am" just isn't a New York thing...), and no one took it, um, _amiss, _or thought it strange, or was offended.


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## Mr.Dent

Obviously the answer is, at least in part, regional.


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## Ponyprof

Absolutely regional.

In Canada 50 years ago service workers said miss, ma'am, sir. The police still do. Otherwise the terms are rarely used today, and would sound a bit formal and old fashioned and perhaps subservient, but not cause offense or confusion.

In the American South, in my experience, the terms are still in much wider use.

It's one of those usages that you just need to listen to your local dialect and choose your own level of formality.


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## dojibear

Ashraful Haque said:


> So it would be alright to address an American lady as Ma'am? For example if I say "Ma'am I think you dropped something."
> How about if the person is a guy? Or should I just stick to good old 'excuse me?'



If you are trying to get someone's attention then "ma'am" and "sir" are good additions after "excuse me". Sometimes 4 syllables gets attention easier than 3 does.

But in what other situations do you "address" a stranger in AE? There aren't many. I'm not sure there are any.

If I am greeting a stranger, I don't need to call them anything. Greeting don't require a "you" word (Sir, Ma'am, fella, friend, buddy, pal, sweetie, love, guy, bud, lady). Often AE speakers look at you with suspicion, if you address them with a "you" word. Are you planning to trick them?


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## natkretep

The usual situation is when you notice someone has dropped something, for example, and you want to get their attention especially if they are not looking in your direction. I have received 'Sir!' before; they tend to be Americans. Others say 'Excuse me!' or 'Hello!' instead.

What would you do in this situation? Would you say 'Miss' or 'Ma'am'?


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## kalamazoo

I first got called "Ma'am) by a teen-age panhandler when I was about 25 and was quite startled.  Now that I am an old lady, I notice that I get addressed as "Miss" more than I would have expected.  I supposed this might be intended to be pseudo-flattering somehow, like an old lady getting addressed as "young lady."


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## GreenWhiteBlue

As noted above, as an American from New York, my instinctive reaction when calling to a woman, regardless of age, would be to say "Miss!", and to a man would be to say "Sir!"  I realize that this is regional.  I also think (and Britons may attack this as they wish, but it will not change my gut feeling here) that because of the whole "class" hangup that Britons who do not consider themselves "U" have, there is a sort of ostentatious refusal in the UK to use any polite terms of address that may be considered as (ooh, horrors!) "subservient", and so the best one may expect in the UK is something along the lines of "Oy!" or "Hey you!"


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## DonnyB

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> As noted above, as an American from New York, my instinctive reaction when calling to a woman, regardless of age, would be to say "Miss!", and to a man would be to say "Sir!"  I realize that this is regional.  I also think (and Britons may attack this as they wish, but it will not change my gut feeling here) that because of the whole "class" hangup that Britons who do not consider themselves "U" have, there is a sort of ostentatious refusal in the UK to use any polite terms of address that may be considered as (ooh, horrors!) "subservient", and so the best one may expect in the UK is something along the lines of "Oy!" or "Hey you!"


Well, here in the UK, as far as attracting the attention of a random stranger in the street goes, the reality is that people just don't use these forms of address any more: it's simply considered old-fashioned more than being anything to do with '_class_' (which incidentally is _far_ less of a hang-up to us than outsiders seem to think it is ).

Most of us just say "Excuse me ... " as being in my experience by far the commonest way of doing it. You do occasionally hear "... mate" used between males but that's by no means universal.


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## Ashraful Haque

Thank you guys very much. I think I got my answer.


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## ewie

DonnyB said:


> Well, here in the UK, as far as attracting the attention of a random stranger in the street goes, the reality is that people just don't use these forms of address any more: it's simply considered old-fashioned more than being anything to do with '_class_' (which incidentally is _far_ less of a hang-up to us than outsiders seem to think it is ).


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## You little ripper!

natkretep said:


> The usual situation is when you notice someone has dropped something, for example, and you want to get their attention especially if they are not looking in your direction. I have received 'Sir!' before; they tend to be Americans. Others say 'Excuse me!' or 'Hello!' instead.
> 
> What would you do in this situation? Would you say 'Miss' or 'Ma'am'?


If it’s a guy, I would normally say, _Excuse me, mate!. _If it was a woman (whatever age), or young child (whatever sex), it would just be _Excuse me!.  _


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## Rover_KE

JustKate said:


> Wow. How interesting the world is, to be sure. I hear _miss_ and _ma'am_ used all the time, so clearly some of the considerations about whether _miss_ is OK are regional ones. Even here, _miss_ isn't used in place of a name, so you wouldn't address a teacher or anyone else whose name you know as _miss_. But when you need to attract the attention of a stranger - e.g., "Excuse me, miss, I think you dropped this" (or "excuse me, ma'am") - it's still very common here. I don't think it sounds rude to say "Excuse me" without the _miss_, but it's still very common and very accepted.


Having lived in the USA for a total of two years, saying _sir, ma'am _and_ miss _comes naturally to me and I use the terms over here all the time.

None of them has ever batted an eyelid.


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