# Genitive of possession with more than two possessions



## Bilbo Baggins

Hi,

I know that if I want to say: "Tom's door and car" in Arabic, I would say: "The door of Tom and his car". However, what if I wanted to add yet another possession? Would I continue the paradigm indefinitely? For example, if I wanted to say: "Tom's door and car and house" would I say: "The door of Tom and his car and his house." ?

Thanks.


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## kifaru

This is my guess: add -hu to the end of each of the following things after the first. ال باب ال تام و سياره و بيته


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## cherine

Yes, you say سيارة توم وبيته وزوجته وأولاده وعائلته وعمله وأشياؤه ...


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## إسكندراني

Bilbo Baggins said:


> "Tom's door and car and house"


باب «طوم» وسيارته وبيته


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## Bilbo Baggins

Thanks, all!


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## kifaru

إسكندراني said:


> باب «طوم» وسيارته وبيته


Why no ال before Tom and door?


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## clevermizo

kifaru said:


> Why no ال before Tom and door?



Because باب is مضاف and as such would not receive ال التعريف. Tom is مضاف إليه and would normally receive ال التعريف but Tom is a proper name that does not receive ال. Similarly you would not say سيارة الموسى * to say Mūsa's (Moses') car, but rather سيارة موسى.


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## kifaru

clevermizo said:


> Because باب is مضاف and as such would not receive ال التعريف. Tom is مضاف إليه and would normally receive ال التعريف but Tom is a proper name that does not receive ال. Similarly you would not say سيارة الموسى * to say Mūsa's (Moses') car, but rather سيارة موسى.


I got it. Thanks.


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## إسكندراني

Possession doesn't need to be definite anyway, you could say 'a man's door' 
باب رجلٍ


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## Abu Talha

إسكندراني said:


> Possession doesn't need to be definite anyway, you could say 'a man's door'
> باب رجلٍ


Hello,
Is this rule (that the مضاف must directly be followed by the مضاف إليه) relaxed when the مضاف إليه is indefinite?

باب رجلٍ وبيته
vs.
باب وبيت رجلٍ

I have the feeling that the second structure, although common spread, is incorrect.


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## إسكندراني

It's widely used in any case.


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## cherine

daee said:


> I have the feeling that the second structure, although common spread, is incorrect.


It is correct. Check the 3rd post of this thread for a useful explanation.


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## lukebeadgcf

daee said:


> Hello,
> Is this rule (that the مضاف must directly be followed by the مضاف إليه) relaxed when the مضاف إليه is indefinite?
> 
> باب رجلٍ وبيته
> vs.
> باب وبيت رجلٍ
> 
> I have the feeling that the second structure, although common spread, is incorrect.





> Occasionally in ancient poetry, and frequently in later prose writers, we find such phrases as سَيْفُ وَرُمْحُ زَيْدٍ _Zeid's sword and spear_, for which the correct expression would be سَيْفُ زَيْدٍ وَرُمْحُهُ



(Wright, vol. ii §78 p. 201 c)


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## Abu Talha

Thanks everyone, for participating.


cherine said:


> It is correct. Check the 3rd post of this thread for a useful explanation.


That's a good find, Cherine. And kudos goes to Abu Bishr too.

From that post, it seems that the مضاف إليه being indefinite has nothing to do with this structure being permissible.


lukebeadgcf said:


> Occasionally in ancient poetry, and frequently in later prose writers, we find such phrases as سَيْفُ وَرُمْحُ زَيْدٍ Zeid's sword and spear, for which the correct expression would be سَيْفُ زَيْدٍ وَرُمْحُهُ
> 
> 
> 
> (Wright, vol. ii §78 p. 201 c)
Click to expand...

I'm probably out of my depth here but aren't the rules of Arabic grammar established through the speech and poetry of the ancient Arabs? I've seen that often a verse of jahili poetry is quoted to prove that a certain grammatical construction or usage is correct. Although, it may be a point on which the Arab grammarians themselves differed (Kufan vs. Basran, etc.) and ibn Malik had his own view. (This is just speculation on my part.)

By the way, I found this sentence on the BBC Arabic website:


> وتعد بي بي سي العربية أكبر وأقدم خدمة اعلامية تطلقها بي بي سي بلغة غير الإنجليزية


If I restructure it to

وتعد بي بي سي أكبرَ خدمةٍ إعلاميةٍ وأقدمَها

does that sound right? It seems to me that خدمة as a مضاف إليه to an elative (or superlative?) is not substantial enough to be referred to by a pronoun.

Thanks.


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## cherine

daee said:


> I'm probably out of my depth here but aren't the rules of Arabic grammar established through the speech and poetry of the ancient Arabs?


True. But if we're talking about Modern Standard Arabic, then we can't deny that some rules/structures that were fine in Classical Arabic are considered, by some, as either incorrect or uncommon.



> وتعد بي بي سي أكبرَ خدمةٍ إعلاميةٍ وأقدمَها
> 
> does that sound right? It seems to me that خدمة as a مضاف إليه to an elative (or superlative?) is not substantial enough to be referred to by a pronoun.


I'm afraid it sounds incorrect. Although I'm not sure how to explain why.


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## lukebeadgcf

cherine said:


> I'm afraid it sounds incorrect. Although I'm not sure how to explain why.



I think the reason it is incorrect has to do with the inconsistent definiteness of the مضاف إليه, in that خدمات is indefinite and ها is definite. Could we say:

تعب بي بي سي أكبر الخدمات الإعلامية وأقدمها...

And what about:

تعد بي بي سي أكبر خدمة إعلامية والأقدم...

?


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## إسكندراني

First is OK but feels different.
Second is weird.
I am quite comfortable with having two مضافs


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## Abu Talha

cherine said:


> True. But if we're talking about Modern Standard Arabic, then we can't deny that some rules/structures that were fine in Classical Arabic are considered, by some, as either incorrect or uncommon.


That's true. Perhaps, as Abu Bishr suggests, they just don't like that it is used now almost exclusively while it was uncommon classically.



lukebeadgcf said:


> I think the reason it is incorrect has to do with the inconsistent definiteness of the مضاف إليه, in that خدمات is indefinite and ها is definite.


That's some good reasoning. I, for one, like it. باب رجلٍ وبيته "A man's door and his house," is fine because once you say "a man's door", the "man" is now defined enough to be referred to by "his". This is not the case in our sentence.



> Could we say:
> 
> تعب بي بي سي أكبر الخدمات الإعلامية وأقدمها...
> 
> And what about:
> 
> تعد بي بي سي أكبر خدمة إعلامية والأقدم...
> 
> ?


I too feel that the first is grammatically and meaningfully correct, but gives a different meaning. "The BBC is considered the biggest of the media services, and the oldest of them.

The second, I actually think, is pretty good. Natives and others more knowledgeable would know best, however, whether it's weird.

تُحسب بي بي سي أكبر خدمة إعلامية و[تُحسب] الأقدم [أيضا]...

(I changed تعد to تحسب because it didn't seem correct without من)


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## إسكندراني

You could say والأقدم بينهم in the first sentence.


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