# Do you <even> want ........



## VicNicSor

A woman is describing a perp to a sketch artist. He:
-- Uh, let's start with the eyes. Were they desperate? Lonely? Did they betray heartache?
-- They were brown.
-- Do you *even *want your purse back?
Brooklyn Nine-Nine, TV series

Again the "even" problem. Show please the meaning of the even in a dictionary.
Thanks.


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## joanvillafane

from Merriam Definition of EVEN
Scroll down to "adverb"

*d —used as an intensive to indicate a small or minimum amount <didn't even try>
*
It's funny because the artist is using deliberately non-objective terms and when she says "brown eyes" he implies she is not even trying (to catch the perp, to get her purse back, etc.)


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## Loob

I can't, Vic.  (Sorry if I've missed previous threads of yours about other uses of "even".)

I think you need an AmE-speaker to explain it....

_


cross-posted_


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## JulianStuart

This one is pretty close:


> indeed (used as an intensive for stressing the identity or truth of something):_He is willing, even eager, to do it._


The _question_ form asks whether the listener is _really being truthful_ about something - in this case wanting the purse back.  The questioner is beginning to doubt whether the listener actually wants the purse back.


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## Loob

Julian, does that mean that "even" here = "actually"?


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## VicNicSor

Thank you, everyone.

Yes, I caught the humor here, it is specifically the 'even' that is the problem.
In "she is not even trying" or "He is willing, even eager, to do it" it's clear, it's pretty much the same as the Russian analog of "even". But I can't still grasp the OP.

These would be clear to me:
Do you want your purse back *at all*?
*Don't you even* want your purse back?


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## JulianStuart

Loob said:


> Julian, does that mean that "even" here = "actually"?


(Depends what you mean by "actually"  If "actually care" = "care more than zero".  "I couldn't care less" = "I actually (do) care (some)", then yes)

Do you care?  Questioner is neutral.
Do you even care?  Questioner thinks the other person may well not care.
Do you even know what I'm asking?  Questioner thinks listener may have no idea at all!

Joan (post#2) also got the impression that the person isn't trying very hard to provide helpful information about getting the purse back, so the sketch artist questions her desire.


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## VicNicSor

Genarally, "even", with all its meanings, in English is very similar to the one in Russian. But this seems to be a special case. I've found in a Russian dictionary an example, "Do you even have a driver's license?", and this is the meaning as in the OP, but we have a different word for it in Russian.


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## Loob

To be honest, I'm still a bit confused.

Julian's examples:


JulianStuart said:


> Do you even care?  Questioner thinks the other person may well not care.
> Do you even know what I'm asking?  Questioner thinks listener may have no idea at all!


are really helpful.

But I'm still struggling to see how I would express this in (my version of) BrE.  Other than, perhaps, using the word "actually"....


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## srk

Does "at all" work in BE, Loob?  "Do you want your purse back at all?"


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## JulianStuart

Loob said:


> To be honest, I'm still a bit confused.
> 
> Julian's examples:
> are really helpful.
> 
> But I'm still struggling to see how I would express this in (my version of) BrE.  Other than, perhaps, using the word "actually"....


Perhaps "at the very least" is a substitute?


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## Loob

srk said:


> Does "at all" work in BE, Loob?  "Do you want your purse back at all?"


I'm not sure, srk.  That doesn't seem to convey the same meaning.


JulianStuart said:


> Perhaps "at the very least" is a substitute?


Maybe it is.  I'm still rather bemused.

I'll bow out now, since my posts are clearly not helping.


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## VicNicSor

I do like the "at all" alternative:
_at all [with negative or in questions] (used for emphasis) in any way; to any extent 
I don't like him at all 
Did he suffer at all?
Oxford dictionary_

_Did he suffer at all? = Did he *even *suffer?_
That work?


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## joanvillafane

Julian said:
Joan (post#2) also got the impression that the person isn't trying very hard to provide helpful information about getting the purse back, so the sketch artist questions her desire.

Julian, I don't think this is exactly what I meant.  The joke is that her information is very helpful (brown eyes).  The artist is the one who thinks she isn't trying very hard because she's not going along with his style of psychological profiling.


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## srk

srk said:


> Does "at all" work in BE, Loob? "Do you want your purse back at all?"





Loob said:


> I'm not sure, srk. That doesn't seem to convey the same meaning.


I agree.  I think "so much as" is a better fit.  "Did you so much as try?"  ("Did you even try.")  It is hard to fit into the dialog about the purse:

"Do you so much as care about the return of your purse, let alone worry about it?"

"But Wittgenstein's question is: How can one so much as try to do this? How can one so much as be of a mind to?"  This is taken from the first use I find of the phrase, using a book search.  _The Claim of Reason: Wittgenstein, Skepticism, Morality, and Tragedy_ by Stanley Cavell.


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## JulianStuart

joanvillafane said:


> Julian said:
> Joan (post#2) also got the impression that (sketch artist thinks) the person isn't trying very hard to provide helpful information about getting the purse back, so the sketch artist questions her desire.
> 
> Julian, I don't think this is exactly what I meant.  The joke is that her information is very helpful (brown eyes).  The artist is the one who thinks she isn't trying very hard because she's not going along with his style of psychological profiling.


And that's the joke, right?


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## VicNicSor

Please, anyone answer #13: Is it possible to replace Did he suffer *at all*? with  Did he *even *suffer? with the same meaning.


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## Glasguensis

It depends what is meant by "at all", Vic. "Even" covers one possibility but there are others which it doesn't cover.
Did he suffer at all? - I don't believe he suffered and I'm requesting confirmation - "even" works here
Did he suffer at all? I am hoping he didn't suffer and I'm requesting an opinion on the subject - "even" doesn't fit.

@Loob : yes, actually would convey the same meaning in BE.


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> It depends what is meant by "at all", Vic. "Even" covers one possibility but there are others which it doesn't cover.
> Did he suffer at all? - I don't believe he suffered and I'm requesting confirmation - "even" works here
> Did he suffer at all? I am hoping he didn't suffer and I'm requesting an opinion on the subject - "even" doesn't fit.
> 
> @Loob : yes, actually would convey the same meaning in BE.



If by the latter you mean this meaning of at all:
_— used to make a statement or question more forceful  
He will go anywhere at all to get a job.  
Did you find out anything at all?  _
_M-W_

Then I agree, it doesn't fit. But your former does. Though, I actually don't see much difference between them. Both convey the meaning that there should be at least a small degree of suffering. As in the OP, the artist is questioning that the woman wants her purse back to any degree. That's the meaning in the OP, right? If so, then "at all" fits well...


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## VicNicSor

-- Let's catch this guy [a perp] so we can give Holt [the captain] some good news. I want to cheer him up.
-- Well, how do you *even *know he's in a bad mood? I mean, it's impossible to read that guy.
Brooklyn Nine-Nine, TV series

Is this exactly the same instance of "even"? Thank you.


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## SReynolds

The second sentence of the reply explains what the first sentence means.

The response suggests that it's not easy to tell what mood the captain's in at any given time. The speaker of that sentence is surprised that the person knows he's feeling down (otherwise there would be no need to cheer him up).


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## VicNicSor

No, I understand the sentence, it's just the unusual meaning of "even" again. It seems it's some "spoken" even, the exact meaning of which is not found in dictionaries


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## SReynolds

I think _this_ specific instance is the one that's found in most dictionaries, that is:



> used for showing that you are saying something that is surprising
> _they have never even heard of the United States
> they wore fur hats, even in summer
> People might not realise water can be extremely cold even on a warm summer day.
> Sometimes I stagger even myself with my genius._



But your first sentence is different. In that case, _even_ adds a definite ironic overtone. For example:

_Do you even care about the people?_ [the person has their doubts]
_Do you even want your purse back?_ [considering the fact you're not being helpful at all, I think you don't]
_Do you even know who I am?_ [I guess you don't, but you definitely should]

_Hey, are we going to buy the blue trash can or the red one?
You know what, I don't even care. Buy the one you like._ [implying: _I don't care anymore._]

I went through a couple of sentences in my head and I'm pretty sure this usage is only common in questions and negative sentences. I haven't really been able to find the appropriate definition in the dictionaries I've looked at.


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## Glasguensis

As I have mentioned elsewhere, you cannot determine the meaning of common words like "even" from dictionaries. I confirm that the "even know" usage is similar to the "even care" usage. The effect of it in the sentence is not identical, however. 

How do you even know : I am questioning how you came by this information
Do you even care : I am questioning the fact of you caring


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## VicNicSor

SReynolds said:


> I think _this_ specific instance is the one that's found in most dictionaries, that is:





SReynolds said:


> _Hey, are we going to buy the blue trash can or the red one?
> You know what, I don't even care. Buy the one you like._ [implying: _I don't care anymore._]


These are understandable and clear, but not the same. At least because they are not questions. 


Glasguensis said:


> As I have mentioned elsewhere, you cannot determine the meaning of common words like "even" from dictionaries. I confirm that the "even know" usage is similar to the "even care" usage. The effect of it in the sentence is not identical, however.
> 
> How do you even know : I am questioning how you came by this information
> Do you even care : I am questioning the fact of you caring


The strange thing is that among *lots *of dictionary definitions and examples of "even", in any dictionaries, you won't find them in the question form in this meaning. I couldn't, at least. The words like "yet", "even", maybe "already", are different when used in questions, negatives or affirmatives.


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## Glasguensis

It would be considerably more strange if you were able to find every possible use of one of these words in a dictionary. I am repeating myself but you seem unwilling to accept that dictionaries do not provide exhaustive lists of possible usages, especially for very common words. 

You seem to be confusing the meaning of a word with the effect it has on the phrase. If I say "even you can understand that", the effect it has on the sentence is to convey that in my opinion you are someone who has difficulty understanding things, but try finding that definition in a dictionary.


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## SReynolds

Exactly. When learning a foreign language, one of the key skills that one has to learn is being able to understand and differentiate finer shades of meaning (for example, German has its own modal particles such as _doch, mal, ja, nun, _and the like, they're quite similar and I still haven't managed to wrap my head around them completely.). These meanings might be elicited by a certain word or phrase but the word itself does not change its meaning because of the inclusion of the word itself.


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## VicNicSor

No, it's not about the effect.
I've heard the patten "Does someone even do something?" in movies several times, and it seems to be colloquial, but it's absolutelly different from all the meanings that dictionaries give.


Glasguensis said:


> but try finding that definition in a dictionary.


Easy!
1. used to emphasize sth unexpected or surprising
• Even a child can understand it (= so adults certainly can) .
OALD

x-posted with Reynolds


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## SReynolds

Yeah, that explains _how do you even know he's in a bad mood?_, but the speaker that said _do you even want your bag back? _definitely wasn't trying to emphasize something unexpected or surprising. What would _even_ be the unexpected/surprising thing in this sentence? That the person wants their purse back? That's certainly not it, that's precisely what the person's at the precinct for.

(and that _even_ in the question wasn't intentional, but I highlighted it nonetheless)


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## Glasguensis

VicNicSor said:


> but it's absolutelly different from all the meanings that dictionaries give.


No it isn't. Despite your denial you are confusing the meaning and the effect. What I listed as the effect on a sentence bears no relation to the definition you easily (and correctly) quoted for the meaning of the word. At the beginning of this thread joan offered a perfectly plausible meaning for the word, it's just that the effect that it has on the sentence is not similar to the effect it has on the example sentence in the dictionary.
If I say "No doubt you'll have finished all the chores I left you", I actually mean "there is every doubt", which is the exact opposite of the meaning of the expression as listed in dictionaries. The effect on the sentence is utterly different from the meaning, whereas if I say "No doubt you'll be hungry", the effect on the sentence is completely consistent with the dictionary definition. Note that the structure of the two sentences is very similar - how could a dictionary possibly list all the different ways of using a word or expression?


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## VicNicSor

Glasguensis said:


> No it isn't. Despite your denial you are confusing the meaning and the effect. What I listed as the effect on a sentence bears no relation to the definition you easily (and correctly) quoted for the meaning of the word. At the beginning of this thread joan offered a perfectly plausible meaning for the word, it's just that the effect that it has on the sentence is not similar to the effect it has on the example sentence in the dictionary.
> If I say "No doubt you'll have finished all the chores I left you", I actually mean "there is every doubt", which is the exact opposite of the meaning of the expression as listed in dictionaries. The effect on the sentence is utterly different from the meaning, whereas if I say "No doubt you'll be hungry", the effect on the sentence is completely consistent with the dictionary definition. Note that the structure of the two sentences is very similar - how could a dictionary possibly list all the different ways of using a word or expression?



I'll explain, using an example, why I'm confused:
yet
a) used in negative statements and questions to talk about whether something that was expected has happened: 
I haven’t asked him *yet *(=but I will). 
Has Edmund arrived *yet*?
(Longman dictionary)

These two yet seem to be similar, but in any dictionary you will see both kinds of examples interrogatives and negatives. Now imagine, there's no examples of the 
interrogative "yet" in any dictionary. It would be odd. But it seems to be the case with this meaning of "even". 

In Russian we have two different adverbs for these two instances of YET. And it seems for the two even, too.


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## Glasguensis

So you're confused because there is one word in English when there are two in Russian and these two uses which are quite separate aren't both listed in the dictionary. I think the explanation is simple: in English we don't consider these two uses to be sufficiently distinct to merit two entries. Had the compilers of the dictionary been native speakers of Russian, perhaps they would have felt differently. Please note that among the various views of native speakers, only one expressed unfamiliarity with this usage. English usage is what English speakers actually use and understand. Dictionaries are like a one paragraph summary of a sporting event compared to actually watching it.


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## SReynolds

I gave it some thought.  Hungarian does too. I fail to see the relevance of this, though.

You can't just distinguish between the two meanings based on whether the sentence is a question or not, precisely because "even" only adds an extra layer to an already existing, regular meaning. The speaker isn't actually surprised that the victim wants their purse back, the irony of the sentence comes from the fact that the sketch artist acts as if he was truly surprised.

You could theoretically have only one definition for each word in a dictionary as the rest of them were most certainly derived from the original meaning. You have to draw the line somewhere. This is why learner's dictionaries tend to distinguish between meanings that are almost completely identical (and also why regular ones don't really care, after all usage like this is not necessarily the job of a dictionary to explain precisely).

[xposted]


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## VicNicSor

Thank you for the answers.


Glasguensis said:


> in English we don't consider these two uses to be sufficiently distinct to merit two entries. Had the compilers of the dictionary been native speakers of Russian, perhaps they would have felt differently.


I was talking about at least a couple of examples of the interrogative "even", not about entries. But there's none. Why do the compilers of the dictionaries put there questions with "yet", but didn't put ones with "even".


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## SReynolds

VicNicSor said:


> I was talking about at least a couple of examples of the interrogative "even", not about entries. But there's none. Why do the compilers of the dictionaries put there questions with "yet", but didn't put ones with "even".



I feel like we're going around in circles.


> You can't just distinguish between the two meanings based on whether the sentence is a question or not, precisely because "even" only adds an extra layer to an already existing, regular meaning. The speaker isn't actually surprised that the victim wants their purse back, the irony of the sentence comes from the fact that the sketch artist acts as if he was truly surprised.



Let me give you a practical example: English has a number of words to describe the outermost line that separates two different things: _boundary, bounds, frontier, limit, _etc. Hungarian has a single word for all of that: _határ_ (Google Translate).

The basic definition for all of these words is the same: _the outer edge of something_. The difference is not in _meaning._ There's often a _frontier _area that marks the _border_ (the line) between two countries. If you don't happen to live in the EU, going to a different country involves one or many _border crossings_. Einstein, too, was _on the frontiers of physics_, but if you're solving a physics problem, you'll often be asked to pay close attention to _edge cases_ because they usually give you a deeper level of understanding (not to be confused with a _borderline_ case, something that's hard to classify). If you use your credit card too much, you can easily exceed your _credit card limit_ but the United States, a country, is often worried about its _debt ceiling_. In calculus, both _limits_ and _boundary value_s are tools that you can use to quantify how a function behaves as it approaches a certain value.

This is only a short list, I could go on and on and any speaker who's familiar with terms that include these words could do the same. Do you honestly think that dictionaries could give you the resources and the ability to properly predict which one of these words is the most appropriate in a given situation? If a speaker of Hungarian asked me what the difference was between these words that all mean _nearly_ the same thing, the only thing I could tell them is _it depends_, and even if you could quantify the difference (which you probably can't), it wouldn't be worth including in a dictionary. The same thing can be said of _even_.

Hungarian has two adverbs that mean _even_, but the one that you would use in sentences with the _ironic even_ also means _at all_ (as in: He didn't suffer at all. Did he suffer at all? He doesn't understand the concept at all.). I've looked up the word in a number of dictionaries and not one of them includes the ironic definition. I'm not surprised.

In case you're wondering, other words with meanings that you probably won't find in a dictionary (aside from maybe _used for emphasis_) include _just_ (Now that's _just_ stupid. That's _just_ too bad. You should _just_ stop and think. I _just _wanted to say...), _then_ (What's your name, then?), _now_ (_Now_ isn't that beautiful? _Now listen to me!_) and _there_ (_There_ you go!). I barely speak Russian, but even if I did, put your hand on your heart and tell me that I wouldn't make a colossal ass of myself at some point if I decided to use some Russian modal particles based on these suggestions.


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## VicNicSor

SReynolds said:


> I hope I won't send you down a rabbit hole of research, but other words with meanings that *you probably won't find *in a dictionary (aside from maybe _used for emphasis_) include _just_ (Now that's _just_ stupid. That's _just_ too bad. You should _just_ stop and think. I _just _wanted to say...), _then_ (What's your name, then?), _now_ (_Now_ isn't that beautiful? _Now listen to me!_) and _there_ (_There_ you go!).


I will, and not "_used for emphasis_". That's the point. I think this interrogative "even" is too important to ignore it, considering dictionaries include many different nuances of other meanings of even, or just, then, now, etc.


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## SReynolds

VicNicSor said:


> That's the point. I think this interrogative "even" is too important to ignore it.



Do you, though? Or do you just simply find it too difficult to believe that a distinction that is clear in Russian might not be so important as to warrant a separate dictionary entry in English? I don't think it's that important. It's a word you can omit and it would barely make any difference _Do you want your purse back?_ too would work in this situation, it would remain ironic (context) but the statement would be a bit too harsh and offensive. Adding the _even_ makes it a bit softer, as if the artist is truly wondering about whether the person wants the purse back. Which is precisely what the dictionary says.


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## Glasguensis

I don't see any difference between the use of "even" in "do you even want your purse back?" and "she doesn't even want her purse back". I certainly don't see any overwhelming need to have two separate entries in the dictionary.


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## VicNicSor

Don't think I like going around in circles, but I didn't not talk a new "entry" -- just an example of it under the existing relevant entry would be enough.
I haven’t asked him *yet*.
Have you asked him* yet?*
The same should have been  with "even"*. *Considering "learner's dictionaries" are written for foreign students, it's essential, since in Russian, e.g. we don't use the same word in "do you *even* want your purse back?" and "she doesn't *even *want her purse back"*, *as well as in the mentioned "yet" examples.


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## Glasguensis

Learner's dictionaries are written for speakers of one of the 5000 or so languages in the world which aren't English. Although Russian is the seventh most commonly spoken non-English language, I'm not sure that it's realistic to expect dictionary compilers to take it into account when deciding what examples to include. Especially when you consider that Mandarin speakers are likely to have considerably more problems finding equivalents.


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## JulianStuart

VicNicSor said:


> The same should have been  with "even"*. *Considering "learner's dictionaries" are written for foreign students, it's essential, since in Russian, e.g. we don't use the same word in "do you *even* want your purse back?" and "she doesn't *even *want her purse back"*, *as well as in the mentioned "yet" examples.



Perhaps I see the issue here, and why you are so unhappy with English dictionaries and argue the nuances and fine points with native speakers.

  In Russian ( and Hungarian too, it seems) there are two different words used for different situations, both of which get translated into English as "even".  English does not distinguish those situations and does not need two entries in an English-English dictionary.  You should be using a Russian to English dictionary or an English to Russian dictionary to resolve the differences between Russian usage and English usage - there is _no place for them in a plain English dictionary_. Imagine if English dictionaries had to have illustrations of usages from all the other languages where a given English word is translated into several different words in each of those languages  English-English dictionaries were not designed to accommodate other languages' idioms.

Cross-posted with Glasguensis, with much the same sentiment but longer typing time


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## VicNicSor

Thank you everyone!


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## VicNicSor

Again an interrogative even.

Cops are discussing their oldest "collars". Charley shows up and thinks they discuss oldest "bags". He:
-- You talking oldest bags? 68.
-- That's not that old. 
-- Yeah, but I was only 20.
-- 20? Were you *even *a cop then?
Brooklyn Nine-Nine, TV series

They are surprized that Charley had, as they thought, an arrest in such an early age. Am I right that this particular "even" could be replaced by "already"? Thanks.


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## SReynolds

That's exactly what it means. This is also an excellent example for demonstrating that _even_ is not always used in an ironic way in questions.


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## VicNicSor

And an excellent example of how really complicated this even is! Thanks.


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