# Dubbing in Arabic



## jonquiliser

Hello, have been watching some film clips in Arabic to practice. The ones I watched were in Egyptian Arabic, which made me wonder about the issue of dubbing, especially as I've seen it said many times that due to the popularity of Egyptian films, people in other Arabic-speaking areas tend to understand Egyptian reasonably well.

So: do all countries/dialect regions do their own dubs? Is it common that programmes are dubbed (not only children's programmes), or is subtitling more common? If dubbing, is that then in 'ammeyya? I found this thread where Cherine says that some especially cartoons may be in MSA while other programmes are in dialect - why would cartoons be dubbed into MSA? (I would have thought that children in particular would have more trouble understanding MSA.)

Also, here it says Algeria and Morocco have no tradition of dubbing, and that they "rely entirely on French and Arab dubbers". How about other Arabic-speaking countries?

Thank you.


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## nanos

Actually, until VERY recently, dubbing was exclusive to MSA. But now, there's a trend (especially with Turkish Dramas) to dub in dialects. For instance, all Turkish dramas are in Syrian... Some Lebanese channels, wanted to be "original" so they got some other foreign series/dramas and dubbed them in Lebanese....

As for Cartoons, mostly they were dubbed in MSA, but most of us loved the Egyptian dubbing while growing up... they sounded more humorous...


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## Abu Rashid

> The ones I watched were in Egyptian Arabic


Although some Disney cartoons have been dubbed into Egyptian dialect in the past, most cartoons are in Fus7a (MSA). However, I think most new cartoons are being dubbed into Fus7a, as they realised it severely limits the market into which they can be sold (pretty much one country, instead of about 15-20).


> why would cartoons be dubbed into MSA? (I would have thought that children in particular would have more trouble understanding MSA.)


Pre-school years (1-4) kids will have some trouble understanding Fus7a, but once they enter school, they should understand fine. Compare that to Lebanese kids for instance understanding Egyptian dialect, or Sudanese kids understanding Iraqi dialect etc. They simply will not. So although the dialect might be great for kids of that country, for all other Arabic kids, it's useless.

Fus7a is the standard amongst Arabic nations, all kids are schooled in it, that's why it's used for cartoons.


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## jonquiliser

Thank you Nanos and Abu Rashid! Curious with the Egyptian dubs sounding more humorous - was that because they sounded more "unusual" to Lebanese ears, or because they were overall more informal than the MSA-dubs?

Abu Rashid, yes, school kids learn MSA. However, I imagine it takes a few years to master. Even so, children in Finland learn English (though admittedly they start school later), yet most English programmes are dubbed into Finnish. And on a different note, if children know MSA they will certainly do as adults. So again, why the particular dubbing of cartoons into MSA and other programmes into colloquial? I guess the economic argument explains the reason for using MSA in cartoons, but it doesn't explain why MSA isn't used for all programmes. Nanos, would you say the recent trend of using Syrian, for example, is because there is political pressure for using 'ammeyya?


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## nanos

They sound more humorous because we think that Egyptians are humorous... Like you said above, the Egyptian dialect is THE one dialect that is understood by almost all Arabs...so it's not the unusual factor, we just like Egyptians


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## Abu Rashid

> Even so, children in Finland learn English (though admittedly they start school later), yet most English programmes are dubbed into Finnish


If English were a dialect of Finnish that analogy might be relevant 
Aren't other Scandanavian languages close to Finnish? And wasn't one of them (Danish??) once considered to be the official 'literary' language? If so, maybe that would be a better analogy for Finland.


> And on a different note, if children know MSA they will certainly do as adults. So again, why the particular dubbing of cartoons into MSA and other programmes into colloquial?


Well let us look at it this way:

1-4 - Understand own dialect only
5-12 - Understand own dialect + fus7a
13+ - Understand own dialect + fus7a + fair amount of other dialects

Since children tend to watch cartoons between roughly 3-12 years of age, fus7a obviously makes the most sense.

It's not quite like that, but it gives you some idea, that later in life, people are more likely to understand other dialects, than earlier in life. Although I saw some young Egyptian kids the other day watching a Turkish drama translated into Syrian dialect, and they seemed to understand it fairly well.


> I guess the economic argument explains the reason for using MSA in cartoons, but it doesn't explain why MSA isn't used for all programmes


A lot of dramas translated from Spanish/Mexican used to be translated into MSA.


> Nanos, would you say the recent trend of using Syrian, for example, is because there is political pressure for using 'ammeyya?


I'm not nanos, but I think there's something political behind it. The collapse of the "Pan-Arab dream" has meant a lot of Arabic countries are trying to move away from Fus7a in some respects, especially in the cultural arena. Also some countries might like to pressent their dialect as the "lingua franca" in order to exert their cultural dominance over others.. just some thoughts.


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## A-class-act

As Egypt is the leader of the Arabic screen,so I think it's normal to found dubbing in Egyptian dialect,besides that it's so clear and easy to be understood by Arabic people,since that other Arabic dialects are not very known as Egyptian do.


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## cherine

As I said before, MSA was the language used to dubb movies. I remember when I was a kid (seventies, eighties) all cartoons where dubbed in MSA (or left in the original language with either subtitles or the voice of the مذيعة of the children's show counting the story for us).
This is how we watches movies like زينة ونَحُّول and لاكي لوك and what I very lately learned it's called "Manga" (Japanese anime): مازنجر، غرانديزر ...

Later, in the nineties, Egyptian was used to dubb animated movies. I think the first big movie to be dubbed in 3ammeyya maSreyya was "Lion King" (or was it Toy Story?).

As for other shows المسلسلات they're either in fuS7a or Shaami (Levantine) Arabic.  Like the Turkish shows dubbed in Syrian.

Why is Egyptian the most commonly used for animation? Maybe because we have actors who are famos in all the Arab countries, maybe because Egyptian is understood -even if not spoken- by all Arabic speakers, maybe because we were "pioneers" (sorry for the cliche) in the industry.
Lebanon and Syria have great contributions too. Their dialect is also widely understood (maybe it's the only Arabic dialect that Egyptians understand without much trouble).
So, to sum up: Egyptian and Levantine are the two mostly understood dialects in the Arab world. And that is why it's only natural that they are the ones used to dubb shows meant to be sold in all the Arab countries.

If a movie was dubbed in, say, Morrocan, Kuwaity or Iraqi dialects, I don't think it will have much success in Egypt (one of the biggest markets in the Arab world).



Abu Rashid said:


> Although some Disney cartoons have been dubbed into Egyptian dialect in the past, most cartoons are in Fus7a (MSA). However, I think most new cartoons are being dubbed into Fus7a, as they realised it severely limits the market into which they can be sold (pretty much one country, instead of about 15-20).


Actually, I think it's the other way round. They used to be made in fuS7a, now they're in dialects.


> Pre-school years (1-4) kids will have some trouble understanding Fus7a, but once they enter school, they should understand fine. Compare that to Lebanese kids for instance understanding Egyptian dialect, or Sudanese kids understanding Iraqi dialect etc. They simply will not. So although the dialect might be great for kids of that country, for all other Arabic kids, it's useless.


I think kids have the ability to understand through context, and to get used to a language or a dialect a lot easier than adults do.
If a 4 year old can understand fuS7a (that he didn't study yet), he can as well understand a dialect he's not used to hearing.


> Fus7a is the standard amongst Arabic nations, all kids are schooled in it, that's why it's used for cartoons.


Not all kids are schooled *in* fuS7a. In Egypt, we only learn fuS7a in the Arabic classes حصص اللغة العربية , the other materials where alwyas explained in 3ammeyya. You won't find an Egyptian teacher of geography, history, math, science... explaining the lesson in fuS7a, although we use it in the homeworks and exams, but never in explaning/giving the lessons.


nanos said:


> They sound more humorous because we think that Egyptians are humorous... Like you said above, the Egyptian dialect is THE one dialect that is understood by almost all Arabs...so it's not the unusual factor, we just like Egyptians


الله يكرمك , merci 
We love Lebanese too.


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## nanos

Anytime Cherine . First Egyptian dubbed cartoon I ever watched was "Cinderella". Man! She and her 7 dwarfs were so cute and fun to watch in the Egyptian dialect....LOVED it


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## Abu Rashid

> Actually, I think it's the other way round. They used to be made in fuS7a, now they're in dialects.


Nope, I think you'll find it was just a phase (Lion King, Nemo & Toy Story are all pretty old now). The last few disney animations I've watched have all been in Fus7a. Seems you haven't been keeping up with the latest releases.


> I think kids have the ability to understand through context, and to get used to a language or a dialect a lot easier than adults do. If a 4 year old can understand fuS7a (that he didn't study yet), he can as well understand a dialect he's not used to hearing.



This may be true to some extent. But he would've had more exposure to Fus7a by 4, than Levantine for instance. In news, in other TV, and of course in cartoons. And perhaps his older brothers and sisters asking about homework etc. Also, at age 5, he'll start getting exposed to Fus7a anyway (not other dialects), so that will reinforce the cartoons anyway.


> Not all kids are schooled *in* fuS7a. In Egypt, we only learn fuS7a in the Arabic classes حصص اللغة العربية


That is what I meant. They will be studying grammar and vocab of Fus7a, not of a competing dialect. If I speak with a 6 or 7 year old kid in Egypt, in Fus7a, he understands me quite well. In fact I find talking to them much easier, because they will switch to Fus7a a little, when adults generally prefer not to.

Either way, Fus7a is the natural choice imho, it is common to all Arabs, and does not require one enforcing his dialect on another. Using dialects for cartoons is really not sensible at all.


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## WadiH

jonquiliser said:


> I found this thread where Cherine says that some especially cartoons may be in MSA while other programmes are in dialect - why would cartoons be dubbed into MSA? *(I would have thought that children in particular would have more trouble understanding MSA.)*



That's an odd thing to say.  If there's a time when it would be easiest for people to learn ANY language it would be the age where they first start watching cartoons!  In reality we learn MSA from the media as children before we even start formal schooling.  We may learn the formal _rules _of Arabic grammar in school, but that's when the rules of every language are formally laid out to people.  So the notion that, as schoolchildren, we approach MSA as a foreign language and have to be taught to speak/read/understand it by our teachers in the same way that an American child would learn French is simply not true.

Plus, the difference between MSA and some dialects isn't that great, so children can perceive very early in their lives that they are simply two variations on the same language (of course many here hold the arbitrary and unlikely notion that all dialects are somehow equidistant from MSA, but I've never come across a serious scholar who held that view).


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## elroy

Wadi Hanifa said:


> [...] *we learn MSA from the media as children before we even start formal schooling*.
> 
> [...]
> 
> *the difference between MSA and some dialects isn't that great*
> 
> [...]


 Thank you, Wadi Hanifa, for putting my thoughts into such pithy words.  The differences between MSA and colloquial language are exaggerated all too often, so your views are like a breath of fresh air. 

I'd like to note that as a child I never watched Arabic-language cartoons in anything but MSA, and the few animated clips I've seen in Egyptian Arabic sound _really_ weird to me.  I'd also like to add that my schooling was exclusively in English with the exception of one Arabic class a day that was not taught anywhere near as rigorously as Arabic is taught at your average Arabic-medium school, yet I never had any problems understanding Arabic cartoons.


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## WadiH

^ ^ ^ High praise coming from you, Elroy.  Thanks.


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## Josh_

Wadi Hanifa said:


> That's an odd thing to say.  If there's a time when it would be easiest for people to learn ANY language it would be the age where they first start watching cartoons!  In reality we learn MSA from the media as children before we even start formal schooling.  We may learn the formal _rules _of Arabic grammar in school, but that's when the rules of every language are formally laid out to people.  So the notion that, as schoolchildren, we approach MSA as a foreign language and have to be taught to speak/read/understand it by our teachers in the same way that an American child would learn French is simply not true.
> 
> Plus, the difference between MSA and some dialects isn't that great, so children can perceive very early in their lives that they are simply two variations on the same language (of course many here hold the arbitrary and unlikely notion that all dialects are somehow equidistant from MSA, but I've never come across a serious scholar who held that view).


 *<off-topic part moved to new thread>*

As far as MSA and children is concerned, I agree that likening it to, say, a French child starting to learn English at the age of 5 is not accurate and a bit of a stretch, as English is most likely a language they have rarely, if ever, heard before, whereas an Arab child will have most likely been exposed, to some degree, MSA.  However, I also imagine that, while children are undoubtedly exposed to MSA (through news media and such), they speak predominantly (if not completely) in dialect, and would not really be able to reproduce MSA to any intelligible degree, if requested to do so.  In other words, the MSA they have thus far heard would be just part of their passive knowledge?  Until, that is, they start to actively learn it in school.  For a child to truly know a language he/she would need to not only listen to it, but to actively use it on a daily basis, which is not the case with MSA.  So to say that children are thoroughly familiar with MSA (in the same way they are familiar with dialect) upon entering school, is a bit of an overstatement.


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## WadiH

> However, I also imagine that, while children are undoubtedly exposed to MSA (through news media and such), they speak predominantly (if not completely) in dialect, and would not really be able to reproduce MSA to any intelligible degree, if requested to do so.  In other words, the MSA they have thus far heard is just part of their passive knowledge?  Until, that is, they start to actively learn it in school.


From personal experience, I can tell you that that is not true, unless you restrict your definition of MSA to require impeccable observance of i3raab.  Children who are exposed to MSA through religious rituals, television, and children's programming absolutely are able to "reproduce" MSA (why wouldn't they be?).  They may not reproduce it perfectly or eloquently, but children that age are not _that _much more eloquent with dialect either.  Switching to MSA from dialect is not as hard as some people think (just look at the recent "White Language" thread), though it is easier with some dialect groups than with others.


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## jonquiliser

> If English were a dialect of Finnish that analogy might be relevant


I didn't mean it as an analogy, exactly, I meant it more as background for my surprise at the expectation that children should know a "foreign" language. But, fair enough, English and Finnish are not related. I'm Swedish-speaking and English and Swedish are. But as I said before, we start school later, and by the time foreign language education begins, we can already read the subtitles. Maybe a better example would be Romance languages: at least in Spain, Italian, Catalan, Portuguese and even Galician (standard Galician is heavily castilianised) are dubbed into Spanish.

Though I guess this doesn't says much. It's a difference of policy, not much more. What's interesting is the why of a certain policy or tradition. Romance languages are standardised as separate langauges and perceived as such; the Arabic 'ammeyyas are not. That makes it even more interesting (for me) that certain 'adult' programmes should be dubbed into the dialect of some area rather than MSA.


Wadi Hanifa said:


> If there's a time when it would be easiest for people to learn ANY language it would be the age where they first start watching cartoons!


This is definitely not true. I remember watching cartoons as a kid, in Finnish (of which I only knew a few words) and the frustration at not understanding! Nor did I learn much of the language through cartoons...


> In reality we learn MSA from the media as children before we even start formal schooling. We may learn the formal rules of Arabic grammar in school, but that's when the rules of every language are formally laid out to people. So the notion that, as schoolchildren, we approach MSA as a foreign language and have to be taught to speak/read/understand it by our teachers in the same way that an American child would learn French is simply not true.
> 
> Plus, the difference between MSA and some dialects isn't that great, so children can perceive very early in their lives that they are simply two variations on the same language.


Thank you, this is very interesting.
Which dialect is closer to CA, if any, is also very interesting, though it's quite off the topic.


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## WadiH

jonquiliser said:


> This is definitely not true. I remember watching cartoons as a kid, in Finnish (of which I only knew a few words) and the frustration at not understanding! Nor did I learn much of the language through cartoons...


Read my statement again and you'll see there is no contradiction.  It is simply easier to learn a language as a young child than it is as an adult.  That doesn't mean that it only takes watching cartoons for a child to learn a language!  Besides, children watch MSA-dubbed cartoons at a very early age (how old were you when you were exposed to Finnish), and they are already exposed to another dialect of the same language in their environment.  So being young is not the only factor, but it definitely helps.


> Which dialect is closer to CA, if any, is also very interesting, though it's quite off the topic.


It has some relation.  My experience was that I had no real difficulty understanding MSA as a young child, even though I learned Arabic relatively late (age 5 or 6), but I think someone growing up in Algeria or Morocco may find it harder.  The problem is that the mere idea that dialects may differ in their mutual comprehensibility with MSA or CA is taboo here, so we had to go on a long tangent discussing that.


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## Mahaodeh

Wadi Hanifa said:


> From personal experience, I can tell you that that is not true, unless you restrict your definition of MSA to require impeccable observance of i3raab. Children who are exposed to MSA through religious rituals, television, and children's programming absolutely are able to "reproduce" MSA (why wouldn't they be?). They may not reproduce it perfectly or eloquently, but children that age are not _that _much more eloquent with dialect either. Switching to MSA from dialect is not as hard as some people think (just look at the recent "White Language" thread), though it is easier with some dialect groups than with others.


I have to agree with this, I remember that my brothers (15, 14 and 8 years younger than I am) used to play in fus7a! I remember very well that the younger two started that at the age of 3 at least (I didn't notice when the older one started); they continued to do that until they stopped playing altogether.

I know this is personal observations, but I also noticed that my nieces can distinguish ways of pronunciation of different dialects and can understand pretty well most of the time at a very early age, they can, as an example, tell that gilitlich, 2ultlik, 2iltlik, qiltilkii and ghiltlich are all the same word. Admittedly though, they did not realize that جاتوه وكيك refer to the same thing.


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## Abu Rashid

Josh,



> However, I also imagine that, while children are undoubtedly exposed to MSA (through news media and such), they speak predominantly (if not completely) in dialect, and would not really be able to reproduce MSA to any intelligible degree



I think what Wadi Hanifa was trying to get across was that Fus7a and dialects are not as distinct as non-Arabs might perceive. I have always looked at them as two circles that intersect one another (to a large degree). Perhaps Wadi Hanifa was trying to communicate that Fus7a is just a way off utilising the Arabic language, rather than a seperate dialect of it's own. Most of the vocabulary of most dialects is from Fus7a, so fus7a is really just a more disclipined way of using the same language, rather than being a sepperate dialect.

So for a child to be able to utilise the Arabic language in that disclipined manner, which constitutes fus7a, is nothing like someone learning another language, nor even another dialect. A child understanding or utilising fus7a would probably have no concept at all that it is another dialect, to them they're just using Arabic in a more eloquent manner (without saying dialects are devoid of eloquence of course).


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## Josh_

> It has some relation. My experience was that I had no real difficulty understanding MSA as a young child, even though I learned Arabic relatively late (age 5 or 6), but I think someone growing up in Algeria or Morocco may find it harder.


Why?  Why would a child from Algeria or Morocco have more trouble learning فصحى than a child from the AP?  If, as you claim, children are exposed to MSA from birth on (through media, religion, etc.) and thus are fairly familiar with it when they start school, why would they have any more difficulty in learning than anyone else?  Your statement presupposes that one's understanding of فصحى is contingent upon understanding of dialect.  Yet that contradicts your earlier statement that children are exposed to فصحى from a very earlier age on.  For if that statement is true, then فصحى would be an acquired language, not a learned language, in the same manner that dialect is acquired, and would not be contingent on anything else.



> The problem is that the mere idea that dialects may differ in their mutual comprehensibility with MSA or CA is taboo here, so we had to go on a long tangent discussing that.


No, I do not think it is taboo. It is a legitimate claim, and one that has been discussed here numerous times and I imagine in a host of other places as well.



			
				Abu Rashid said:
			
		

> I think what Wadi Hanifa was trying to get across was that Fus7a and dialects are not as distinct as non-Arabs might perceive.


I realize that. And as someone who has become proficient in both فصحى and a dialect I agree that the difference is not as great as some may imagine.  My knowledge of Egyptian helped me learn فصحى by leaps and bounds.  

As for the distinction between فصحى and the dialects, it seems to me that a couple of things are at play here.  Firstly, many native speakers of Arabic themselves (perhaps out of pride for their language or in order to embellish the difficulty of learning Arabic) will tell non-natives that there is a great difference.  At least that's been my experience.  And secondly, many students of Arabic, upon having achieved mastery over MSA, become dismayed to learn that if they want to learn a dialect there is a new sound system to learn, and some new rules to learn.   To them, it feels like learning a new language.  So from the inside looking out (that is, a native speaker looking at Arabic from his/her native standpoint) there is not great a difference between فصحى and dialect.  And that is because both dialect and فصحى have become second nature.  But from the outside looking in (a non-native looking at both فصحى and dialect) and trying to learn both, the difference in great, because it is not second nature.

I also agree with your point that most children do not see فصحى as distinct from their dialect, but rather just as another way to express ideas within the same language.  As far as the 'eloquence issue', I'm staying far away from that.


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## yasmeena

Mahaodeh said:


> I have to agree with this, I remember that my brothers (15, 14 and 8 years younger than I am) used to play in fus7a! I remember very well that the younger two started that at the age of 3 at least (I didn't notice when the older one started); they continued to do that until they stopped playing altogether.
> 
> I know this is personal observations, but I also noticed that my nieces can distinguish ways of pronunciation of different dialects and can understand pretty well most of the time at a very early age, they can, as an example, tell that gilitlich, 2ultlik, 2iltlik, qiltilkii and ghiltlich are all the same word. Admittedly though, they did not realize that جاتوه وكيك refer to the same thing.


 
I agree with you Maha. For further personal observation, my four-year-old is completely aware that the English he speaks at pre-school is a totally different language from the Arabic he speaks at home. Sometimes when he answers me in English, he quickly offers a translation : mama, thank you ya3ni shukran. But when he speaks fus7a(considerably good fus7a) when playing, or trying to be funny, he assumes that I understand it, which means he is aware it is just a variant of our native Shaami. 

The interesting thing I've noticed more than once, is that when he visits his Iraqi friend, he switches to the 'g' (nitla3 foog instead of foo2). He also told me once that uncle X (Egyptian) says 3arabiyya for sayyara. I have to say I was really surprised - and 'proud'  - when he answered uncle X's questions 'ezzayyak' and 'eeh da' which are completely different from 'keefak' and 'shu haida'.


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## WadiH

> Why?  Why would a child from Algeria or Morocco have more trouble learning فصحى than a child from the AP?  If, as you claim, children are exposed to MSA from birth on (through media, religion, etc.) and thus are fairly familiar with it when they start school, why would they have any more difficulty in learning than anyone else?  Your statement presupposes that one's understanding of فصحى is contingent upon understanding of dialect.  Yet that contradicts your earlier statement that children are exposed to فصحى from a very earlier age on.  For if that statement is true, then فصحى would be an acquired language, not a learned language, in the same manner that dialect is acquired, and would not be contingent on anything else.



Well, recall that the original poster stated that cartoons were useless for her to understand Finnish, a foreign language to her (though I wonder how old she was at the time).  I certainly don't think that watching French cartoons would have been enough for me to learn French.  But when the two "languages" have a very close relationship (e.g. dialectical Arabic and MSA), it becomes easier.  At some point, you should have a dialect that is so far removed from MSA, that the transition becomes harder, and the connection becomes more difficult for a child to make.  I often hear people in Egypt complaining about how difficult it is for them to read MSA as children (though this statement may be ideologically motivated of course).  So, maybe the mutual comprehensibility of a dialect with MSA will be a factor in how easily the child will be able to learn MSA watching TV.  This proposition may or may not be true (I have no studies to back it up of course), but I don't think it is as far-fetched as you think.


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## elroy

Moderator Note:

The discussion on geography and closeness of dialects to MSA has been split off.  Please continue it in the new thread:

Is there a link between geography and closeness of a dialect to MSA?


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## jonquiliser

Thank you Elroy!

Wadi Hanifa- I probably watched children's programmes in Finnish from the age I started to watch TV at all (I don't know, I'd imagine from age 3-4 or something like that. Though admittedly, from the age that I remember, I avoided the Finnish-language programmes as I didn't understand them too well ).

My point was simply that this alone, at least in my case, wasn't enough to pick up the language. I think most decisive in learning a language is not 'exposure' in any sense whatever, but specifically being engaged with language - adults (and other children) talk to children and at some point, start to expect them to reply.

Anyway, to get back to the original quesiton about Arabic dubbing - it may seem like a fanciful question, but it actually helps me imagine how the language appears to native speakers, what register something represents or where the boundaries between different 'ammiyyas and/or Classic A appear. Plus, it is interesting as general information about linguistic policies  .

Shukran jazeelan al-kull,


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## شاعر

I heard that disney will stop the egyptian dialect dubbing which is a good news as arab children are supposed to learn fusha not the cairo dialect

really i cant stand the egyptian dubbing , its weird and require a intense concentration to understand 

i hope all disney wonders should be redubbed in arabic standard

the best dubbers i appreciate are the lebanese and syrian ones


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## She'lock Holmes

I'm not familiar with Arabic dubbs in other than Turkish shows (Syrian) or in cartoons (Egyptian and MWA) and it seems like a very recent change; also, Syrian Arabic is gaining a hugely influential position in dubbs. I heard about one dubb in Tunisian Arabic but I didn't have the chance to check it myself.
SA is becoming so influential that it has been suggested for dubbing some PS4 games, although I believe some were cancelled after some arabophones (especially from the Gulf) complained that MSA is understood everywhere while dialects aren't (of course, this isn't a valid argument as SA is widely understood, probably more than Egyptian Arabic for the young generation outside of Egypt) and pan-Arabs (which I believe is the real reason behind this) attacked the very idea as it was a cultural shock for them and a supposed threat against the (ironically) never-spoken _Fusha_. 

The instances mentioned in #14 do not prove that MWA (which is literally in the middle of a continuum between the vernaculars and Classical Arabic) is near-identical to the vernaculars, but merely that these children were learning that variety of MWA in the cartoons as a *native* language then they didn't continue using it.
I remember that I used to talk in MWA occasionally when I was very young (an influence from cartoons) before being ridiculed by other classmates and I recently heard about one more similar case where a child used to speak in MWA but stopped for the same reason.

I disagree with saying that the difference between MWA and the vernaculars is overestimated; I believe that arabophones are more prone to think so for two reasons:
1. We have VERY high rates of literacy in MWA as whoever learns to read almost always starts so by MWA. Also, some arabophones are -strangely- literally native speakers of MWA (as evident in #14) and many (most?) are passive bilinguals in it but without the ability to speak it. This can change quite fast with this era of the vernaculars now and the instance mentioned in #22 supports it.
2. This might come as a surprise, but some second/third-generation immigrants have great difficulties with understanding MWA while they're definitely native speakers of their 'dialects'. It's quite noticeable with Lebanese Christians who had little or no exposure to MWA or the Quran in the diaspora.


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## cherine

She'lock Holmes said:


> I'm not familiar with Arabic dubbs in other than Turkish shows (Syrian) or in cartoons (Egyptian and MWA) and it seems like a very recent change


There's also Moroccan rubbing of Turkish series, and of Egyptian series as well. And there's Egyptian dubbing of Chinese series. And I once watched an Indian movie dubbed in a Khaleeji dialect, not sure which but I think it was Saudi.
It seems that dubbing is becoming more and more common, of different sources and into different forms of Arabic.

PS. I don't know what is MWA, and would appreciate you don't use obscure acronyms so as to remain clear and understood. Also the relation between fuS7a and dialects is off-topic here, so please keep that discussion in one of the relevant threads. Thanks.


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## She'lock Holmes

cherine said:


> It seems that dubbing is becoming more and more common, of different sources and into different forms of Arabic.


Indeed. I believe it's because subtitles usually distract viewers from the actual movie and MWA isn't 'normal'. 



cherine said:


> PS. I don't know what is MWA, and would appreciate you don't use obscure acronyms so as to remain clear and understood.


It refers to the same thing as MSA and is another unpopular (although is still used) name for it. Replacing the s with a w means that I disapprove of calling this variety of Arabic 'standard' and I prefer describing it as a 'written' variety Arabic that isn't normally spoken.


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## cherine

I don't object to your preference in calling it Written instead of Standard but to your using an acronym that is not clear. So please, either spell out the words or use the name fuS7a if you don't have an objection to it.
Thanks.


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## Hemza

I guess this also has to do with channels trying to attract people more efficiently by using their "native" dialect (or at least the "mainstream" dialect or the country). I guess it is also part of some nationalist policies. Oddly in Morocco, some Turkish series are dubbed in Moroccan but not some others which are still dubbed in Syrian.

As for Egyptian series being dubbed in Moroccan ... At least subtitled for those who don't understand Egyptian yet I can't imagine a Canadian show dubbed in European French, it sounds dumb to me. Subtitled why not, but a dub changes the perception of the show itself contrary to subtitles.



Wadi Hanifa said:


> At some point, you should have a dialect that is so far removed from MSA, that the transition becomes harder, and the connection becomes more difficult for a child to make.  I often hear people in Egypt complaining about how difficult it is for them to read MSA as children (though this statement may be *ideologically motivated of course*).



I think it is most of the time in my opinion. You may hear the same statement coming from some Moroccans but what kind of dialect do they speak? A creole of Arabic and French hence the difficulties. On the other range, you won't hear such statement from someone who speaks a conservative dialect in Morocco. Logically, those kinds of statements are found in the most Frenchised areas of Morocco/Algeria/Tunisia but not in the less in contact with French areas neither in Mauritania nor in Libya you find such debates which are highly ideologically motivated.


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