# "Shin" and "Sin"



## halaywi

It seems that in ancient Hebrew of the First Temple period that what today are the 2 pronunciations of the Shin was non-existant, but the letter had one single pronunciation that was distinct from the Samekh, not as has been practiced even since Talmudic times. Can anyone give me more leads regarding this, and perhaps even audio, perhaps by drawing from other Semitic languages?


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## Drink

Why does it seem like this? I do not believe that is accurate. It's true that in some dialects of the language that was likely the case, but certainly not across the board.


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## halaywi

Psalm 119 is an acrostic is which each letter successively is allocated 8 verses. In the section for the "Shin Sin" both versions appear, not nesesarily in any order, indicating they they are the same letter. The diacritical dots the distinguish the 2 pronunciations did not come until Talmudic times or even later. Furthermore, what sense would it have been to have 2 pronunciations for the same letter when another letter, the Samekh, already has that one. And why should the Shin, and no  other letter be singled out for 2 pronunciations?


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## Abaye

I don't think it's a very strong argument. Psalm 119 may well use the alphabet for esthetic visual purpose.
Shin-sin merger had apparently occurred in the dialect of the alphabet inventors but not necessarily in Hebrew.
How would you explain a hypothetical later etymological shin-sin split, reviving the ancient division?


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## halaywi

I don't think there was a Shin-Sin merger, but that originally there was an "S" sound, for the Samekh, that has survived, and another sound for the Shin-Sin, which was lost, resulting in the split. (Even until very recently it was normal among Lithuanian and some Morrocan Jews to pronounce the letter always as an "S", regardless of where the dot is.) I think the original sound was something between S and SH or a combination of the 2, but did not survive, at least not in Hebrew, hence the split. If so, apparently that sound was difficult to pronounce and hence lost. I'm wondering if such a sound has survived in any other language.


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## Abaye

The theory is that there were 3 "s" / "sh" sounds in Proto-Semitic, called sometimes s1/s2/s3, that were merged differently in the later Semitic languages, where Hebrew maintained the three until a relatively late period, maybe losing it due to Aramaic influence that started during the Babylonian exile.

The realization of the three in different times and places is unclear, my guess it that Hebrew shin was more similar to "th" than to "sh" (as it became later), remembering that the ancient "th" sound merged in Hebrew into shin.

See the merge table here: Shin (letter) - Wikipedia.


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## halaywi

According to your theory, how was the "TH" sound of the Shin pronounced? Has such a sound survived in any other language?


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## Abaye

It's not my theory, it's the one accepted AFAIK by practically the whole linguist community.
The original "th" sound survived in classical (Quranic) Arabic and sounds like English "th".

What was the sounds of shin that resulted from the merger with "th"? Probably somewhere between "th" and "sh". Mapping of the ancient sounds into later ones may be misleading, the ancient sound repertoire could be larger than we are capable to discern and pronounce.


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## halaywi

I won't get into a debate as to acceptance by practically the whole linguist community. How is the th sound in Quranic Arabic pronounced? If it is like the English th, that is already covered in Hebrew by the Tav Refuyah.


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## Abaye

halaywi said:


> How is the th sound in Quranic Arabic pronounced? If it is like the English th, that is already covered in Hebrew by the Tav Refuyah.


There wasn't probably a "tav refuyah" until 3rd-2nd-1st century BC when the 6 letters bgdkpt got two possible pronunciations, maybe on the same period of Hebrew sin-samech merge, post biblical. So a discussion must take into account the place and time.


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## halaywi

How is the th sound in Quranic Arabic pronounced? Did you ever hear it?


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## amikama

This was discussed thoroughly in the following thread:
Proto-Semitic s1, s2 & s3

I'm closing this thread to prevent duplicate discussions.

Thanks,

amikama
Hebrew forum moderator


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