# Hindi/Urdu: maatam मातम



## lafz_puchnevala

Hi,

Google translate gives meanings such as 'weeds' and 'mourning/grief' for this. Would these be accurate?

*Eg. abhii bhii, us aafat ke sabab, woh parivaar maatam mein hai.* Even now due to the accident, that family is in mourning/grief.

Would this be appropriate usage?

Thanks!


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## greatbear

Yes, "maatam" means mourning, and your usage seems fine. You might want to change "parivaar" into something more Urdu-looking and "abhi-abhi" to "haal hi meiN", given that you are using words like "sabab", so that all the words belong to more or less the same register.


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## Alfaaz

For Urdu: 

(maatam (Farsi ماتَم (فارسی) 

1. مرنے کا غم، سوگ، مجلس عزا، جہاں لوگ غم منانے کو جمع ہوں۔
marne ka gham, sog, majlis-e-a'za, jahaaN log gham manane ko jama' hoN
2. گریہ و زاری، نوحہ، کہرام۔
giryah-o-zaari, nauHah, kohraam
3.  غم، رنج، حزن و الم۔
gham, ranj, Huzn o alam
افسوس، سرپیٹنا۔
afsos, sar peeTna
4.  شہدائے کربلا کی عزاداری میں چھاتی پیٹنا، سینہ کوبی۔
shuhadaa-e-Karbala ki a'za daari mein chhaati peeTna, seenah kobi 
عورتوں کا کسی کارِ خیر یا شر میں اجتماع۔ (ماخوذ: فرہنگ آصفیہ)۔
a'urtoN kaa kisi kaar-e-khair yaa shar meiN ijtimaa'a (maakhuz: farhang-e-Aasifyah)

Yes the sentence looks fine, but you could probably change the order and wording a bit: 
اس آفت کے باعِث ابھی بھی / ابھی تک / تاحال وہ خاندان ماتم میں ہے
us aafat ke baa'is abhi bhi / abhi tak / taaHaal woh khaandaan maatam mein hai


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## greatbear

"Maatam" by the way is a word very common in Hindi, the other synonym being "shok": both are highly used, and usually while it's a "raashtriye shok" (national mourning), a "parivaar" is in "maatam" (of course, some people say they are in "shok").
By the way, "to mourn" is more often translated (when "maatam" is used) in Hindi as "maatam manaanaa" than "maatam karnaa".


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> Yes, "maatam" means mourning, and your usage seems fine. You might want to change "parivaar" into something more Urdu-looking and "abhi-abhi" to "haal hi meiN", given that you are using words like "sabab", so that all the words belong to more or less the same register.



gb, I think you might have misread OP's sentence. It is "abhii bhii" (equivalent to "ab tak" in the context). So "Haal hii meN" would not fit. Both "abhii bii" and "ab tak" would be perfectly acceptable for Urdu.


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## Qureshpor

Alfaaz said:


> (maatam (Farsi ماتَم (فارسی)
> 
> Just a minor point. maatam is actually Arabic. The word in reality is "ma2tam" but in Urdu and Persian it has become "maatam", just like "taariix" was "ta3riix", momin "mu2min" etc.


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## lafz_puchnevala

greatbear said:


> "Maatam" by the way is a word very common in Hindi, the other synonym being "shok": both are highly used, and usually while it's a "raashtriye shok" (national mourning), a "parivaar" is in "maatam" (of course, some people say they are in "shok").
> By the way, "to mourn" is more often translated (when "maatam" is used) in Hindi as "maatam manaanaa" than "maatam karnaa".



Thank you for that tip   I would have thought that 'karna' would have been the verb if not for that.


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> ...
> Just a minor point. maatam is actually Arabic. The word in reality is "ma2tam" but in Urdu and Persian it has become "maatam", just like "taariix" was "ta*2*riix", momin "mu2min" etc.


If you hear warsh or are familiar with the dialect of the quraysh, they did not articulate the Hamzah like that. We're just more faithful muqalliduun of the quraysh than are Arabic speakers!


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> If you hear warsh or are familiar with the dialect of the quraysh, they did not articulate the Hamzah like that. We're just more faithful muqalliduun of the quraysh than are Arabic speakers!



Yes, of course I am aware of my own dialect! My emphasis was more on word origins than the hamzah. By the way, Urdu does preserve the hamzah in a number of Arabic words.


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## BP.

Examples would've been nice when none are forthcoming in my lazy mind.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> gb, I think you might have misread OP's sentence. It is "abhii bhii" (equivalent to "ab tak" in the context). So "Haal hii meN" would not fit. Both "abhii bii" and "ab tak" would be perfectly acceptable for Urdu.



I did misread it; thanks for pointing out. Yes both "ab bhii" and "abhii bhi" (and "is wakt bhii") would be fine.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> If you hear warsh or are familiar with the dialect of the quraysh, they did not articulate the Hamzah like that. We're just more faithful muqalliduun of the quraysh than are Arabic speakers!


 BP SaaHib you are indeed correct about this! In fact, this was one of the first point that was made by my elders that despite our _siyaadat_ we don't follow the speech of our ancestors when speaking Arabic where, according to the standard rules, we are required to fully utter the _hamzah_ ( I guess you mean't to write _hamzah_ and not _Hamzah_) but when we use hamzatted-Arabic words in Urdu we do follow the speech of our ancestors! 



BelligerentPacifist said:


> Examples would've been nice when none are forthcoming in my lazy mind.


 You mean words like مائل _maa'il / maa2il_ and مائع _maa'i3 / maa2i3 _! We still have these with a_ hamzah_. But _maa'tam / maa2tam _is written and pronounced without the _hamzah_ though some Urdu dictionaries do indicate that there is indeed a _hamzah_ there: _maa'tam_ ماتم

Anyway, here is some _maatamii / maa'tamii_ poetry:


ہر سو چمن دہر میں ہے كسكا غم
ہر نخل ہے تعزیہ تو ہر سرو علم
گریاں ہے سحاب اور ہوا ہے نالاں
ہر موج سے آتی ہے صدائے مأتم

حر لكھنوی

_har suu chaman-e-dahr meN hai kiskaa gham_
_har naxl hai ta3ziyah to har sarv 3alam_
_giryaaN hai saHaab aur hawaa hai naalaaN_
_har mauj se aatii hai Sadaa'e maa'tam_

_Whose sorrow is there in the world around_
_Each date-palm a shrine, each cypress an 3alam_
_The clouds weep and the air laments_
_From each wave comes the sound of maatam_

_Hurr Lakhnavii_


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Examples would've been nice when none are forthcoming in my lazy mind.



The obvious one of the "ma2tam" and "mu2min" type that comes to my mind is "itmi3naan", here the preceding vowel before the hamzah being a kasrah.


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## lafz_puchnevala

One related word for 'maatam' is '*maatampursii*'. It seems like verb. What can it mean?

Thanks!


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## Alfaaz

> One related word for 'maatam' is '*maatampursii*'. It seems like verb. What can it mean?


ماتم پرسی maatam pursii: 
اسم کیفیت :ism kaifiyat

. ورثائے میت سے لوگوں کی غم خواری، تعزیت، پُرسہ۔
wurasaa-e-mayyat se logoN ki gham khaari, ta'ziyat, pursah

condolence


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## Alfaaz

> Just a minor point. maatam is actually Arabic. The word in reality is "ma2tam" but in Urdu and Persian it has become "maatam", just like "taariix" was "ta3riix", momin "mu2min" etc.


Thanks for the information and examples. I was wondering why it sounds like there is an 'ain in those words when pronounced by some Urdu speakers (as in poetry or religious programs). 
Just an observation: Mo'min and Mo'minah seem to be correctly pronounced (by a lot of people) even in Urdu and other languages (at least and especially when they are used as names).


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## lafz_puchnevala

Alfaaz said:


> ماتم پرسی maatam pursii:
> اسم کیفیت :ism kaifiyat
> 
> . ورثائے میت سے لوگوں کی غم خواری، تعزیت، پُرسہ۔
> wurasaa-e-mayyat se logoN ki gham khaari, ta'ziyat, pursah
> 
> condolence



So, to say 'to offer condolences' would be 'maatampursiyaan denaa'?


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