# Silent t: the "t" in pistol and postpone: pronounced or not??



## paddycarol

Could you tell me whether the "t" in "pistol" and "postpone" pronounced or not?


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## konungursvia

Yes they are both pronounced, though you will sometimes hear people almost drop the t in postpone when speaking very rapidly. You ought to pronounce them both, however.


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## Outsider

They are both pronounced, although in practice the "t" in "postpone" may be barely audible.


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## paddycarol

That's why I cannot make sure. I once looked up "postpone" in Longman and Oxford dictionary and both said the "t" is not pronounced. But I used to hear many people pronounce it in practice.
So, may I further my question by ask whether "t" could be "almost dropped" in some other similar cases?


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## konungursvia

Your Longman and Oxford dictionaries on those cloned electronic devices in the Far East contain lots of errors, I'd take them with a grain of salt. Few, if any, native speakers would drop the t in postpone unless they are talking in a real hurry.


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## panjandrum

The pronunciation in the OED includes t.
As others have suggested, it is sometimes hard to hear.


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## paddycarol

Thank you very very much!


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## Outsider

Perhaps this "t" in "postpone" is what is called an unreleased stop.


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## majlo

konungursvia said:


> Your Longman and Oxford dictionaries on those cloned electronic devices in the Far East contain lots of errors



List at least, say, 5 of them, please.

All my dictionaries - _Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary_ - say there is no /t/ in _postpone_. In _Webster's Third New International Dictionary _the transcription has /t/ in brackets.


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## rsweet

In some words, such as "postpone," you definitely feel the "t" in your mouth when you say it. You may not actually hear the "t", but I think this short stop of the tongue against your teeth helps shape the word somewhat. "Pospone" sounds different to me, rather sloppy.


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## timpeac

paddycarol said:


> That's why I cannot make sure. I once looked up "postpone" in Longman and Oxford dictionary and both said the "t" is not pronounced. But I used to hear many people pronounce it in practice.
> So, may I further my question by ask whether "t" could be "almost dropped" in some other similar cases?


I don't think that it is pronounced in the speech I hear round me. I agree with the others that it is an unreleased stop but I'd be amazed if anyone could hear the difference between that and a double s "posspone". The way the US voice pronounces it is exactly as I would expect

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/postpone

where the "missing" t translates into a slightly elongated s. I'm finding it hard how you could otherwise hear an unreleased t in such a situation even with the most careful pronunciation in the world (short of releasing it, of course).


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## timpeac

rsweet said:


> In some words, such as "postpone," you definitely feel the "t" in your mouth when you say it. You may not actually hear the "t", but I think this short stop of the tongue against your teeth helps shape the word somewhat. "Pospone" sounds different to me, rather sloppy.


In auditory terms, wouldn't you agree the effect is to elongate the "s", giving it an extra beat (like double consonants in Italian)?


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## Outsider

Or perhaps some people pronounce the "t" and others don't, and our memory tends to "average it out"... Too crazy?


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## timpeac

Outsider said:


> Or perhaps some people pronounce the "t" and others don't, and our memory tends to "average it out"... Too crazy?


I'm convinced no one pronounces the "t" (if by that you mean release it) - but I do think that the stress of the "s" is greater to compensate in careful speech and could become homophonous with "pospone" in quick (and fairly normal) speech. Post-pone with the t released sounds very odd to me.


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## cirrus

timpeac said:


> I'm convinced no one pronounces the "t" (if by that you mean release it) - but I do think that the stress of the "s" is greater to compensate in careful speech and could become homophonous with "pospone" in quick (and fairly normal) speech. Post-pone with the t released sounds very odd to me.


And to me for that matter.  If I heard it, I would assume it was a non native struggling manfully with the finer intricacies of spoken English.


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## Dimcl

cirrus said:


> And to me for that matter. If I heard it, I would assume it was a non native struggling manfully with the finer intricacies of spoken English.


 
As a Canadian born and bred, I always pronounce the "t"... go figure! 

My question is, if you don't pronounce the "t" in "postpone", how do you say "postman" or postpartum or postmenopausal?


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## cirrus

Dimcl said:


> My question is, if you don't pronounce the "t" in "postpone", how do you say "postman" or postpartum or postmenopausal?


I don't think I pronounce the t in postman, postpartum but do in postmenopausal.  

Is it just one of those tricky consonant cluster questions - six sick sheikhs or something as apparently simple (but actually really difficult) like crisps which I pronounce as 
crisp <something approaching glottal stop> s <ditto> s.


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## timpeac

cirrus said:


> I don't think I pronounce the t in postman, postpartum but do in postmenopausal.
> 
> Is it just one of those tricky consonant cluster questions - six sick sheikhs or something as apparently simple (but actually really difficult) like crisps which I pronounce as
> crisp <something approaching glottal stop> s <ditto> s.


Same here - I think that the "postmenopausal" is an exception because we are still heavily analysing it as literally meaning "after the menopause" like post-modern etc (which isn't the case for postpone or postman, and for postpartum I suppose it's such a relatively unusual word that we're not thinking "after partum"). In fact I think this has hit the nail on the head for me - if I heard someone say "the post-man" with the t fully released I'd get the distinct impression someone was talking about a representative of the next stage in evolution of the human species!


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## JamesM

timpeac said:


> I'm convinced no one pronounces the "t" (if by that you mean release it) - but I do think that the stress of the "s" is greater to compensate in careful speech and could become homophonous with "pospone" in quick (and fairly normal) speech. Post-pone with the t released sounds very odd to me.


 
I agree. It's still there, but very subtle.  "Postpone" sounds (and feels) different to me than "Poes-pone" (as a possible way to get the same vowel sound).   It's nowhere near as strong as something like the first "t" in "posthaste", which seems to benefit from the "h" that follows.


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## .   1

The t is pronounced in pistol (I have never heard pissol) and postpone is always pos_t_pone.  I would understand posspone if I heard it but I just don't hear it except in sloppy U.S.American media.

.,,


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## JamesM

Just as a side note - "pestle", as in "mortar and pestle", seems to be pronounced by some people with no "t" and by others with the "t".  

Pistol, though, would sound very strange without the "t" - "Pissal", rhymes with "missal". (?)


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## timpeac

. said:


> The t is pronounced in pistol (I have never heard pissol) and postpone is always pos_t_pone. I would understand posspone if I heard it but I just don't hear it except in sloppy U.S.American media.
> 
> .,,


Just to check, because I am so surprised by this, do you fully pronounce the "post" plus the "pone" or do you leave the "t" or "post" unreleased? In other words do you say "post" just as you would if you were saying it on its own followed by "pone" so you clearly hear "s-t-p" with the t having its full force? Does the American voice pronunciation I linked to above sound sloppy to you then?


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## timpeac

JamesM said:


> Just as a side note - "pestle", as in "mortar and pestle", seems to be pronounced by some people with no "t" and by others with the "t".
> 
> Pistol, though, would sound very strange without the "t" - "Pissal", rhymes with "missal". (?)


It's not surprising that the consonant of pistol would always stay with a following vowel because it links to it (enchaînement in French - sorry, don't know if that is also the English term or not). I don't know the history of the pronunciation in English of "pestle" but I suspect it would have started as "pest-luh" and so had the three consonants which often leads to the middle one being dropped in English, whereas "pistol" would have started off as pis-tol.

Spelling and literacy can have an effect on all this. When English spelling was first being put together the "t" in "often" was pronounced, which is why it is spelt that way. Over time the "t" fell away leaving "offen", but as literacy grew and people were aware of the spelling "often" they started reintroducing it until today both pronunciations are just as common. I wonder if that is the case with the "pesTle" you've heard (I've never heard anyone say "pesTle" before only pessle, but this could be a famous AE BE difference I suppose).


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## foxfirebrand

I'm surprised no one has raised the AE/BE question yet.  To my ear, the English (non-rhotic, poncy-sounding to AE ears) _post-_ words not only lack a _t, _but the first syllable is so unstressed it almost lacks a vowel.

In AE we put a _lot_ more stress on the first syllable of words like _postpone_ than the Brits seem to.  That immediately struck me as the reason that _postmenopausal_ was mentioned as an "exceptional" word-- it's got too many syllables to pronounce "the British way!"

Ah, it finally clicks into place-- _postprandial._  The first time I ever heard this word pronounced it was with an English accent, and I couldn't guess at the meaning even though I know Italian-- I couldn't hear the _post_ in "p'SPRANjul.

Yeah, definitely an across-the-pond issue.
.


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## mariposita

I pronounce the /t/ in both postpone and pistol, but almost as a /d/. My tongue is nowhere near my teeth when I do this. The front of my tongue is flat on the back of my alveolar ridge.


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## mplsray

. said:


> The t is pronounced in pistol (I have never heard pissol) and postpone is always pos_t_pone. I would understand posspone if I heard it but I just don't hear it except in sloppy U.S.American media.
> 
> .,,


 

The pronunciation without a [t] is given as one of the pronunciations for the word _postpone _in the _American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, _4th ed.; the _Encarta World English Dictionary,_ North American ed.; the _Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary; and the Random House Unabridged Dictionary._


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## Dale Texas

I agree, the t is is pronounced is postpone, perhaps subtly/partially unreleased, but there. 

I can't imagine a situation wherein a listener just did not catch the word at all, and the speaker, slowing down and repeating by syllables in a louder voice, in that jocular way we sometimes do, would do anything other than sound the t.

Speaker: Postpone.
Listener: What?
Speaker: Postpone.
Listener: WHAT???
Speaker: POST-*PONE!!!*

Other than a comedy sketch, I can't imagine the final response from the speaker being "POESE-*PONE!!!" *


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## MrBobby

> Speaker: Postpone.
> Listener: What?
> Speaker: Postpone.
> Listener: WHAT???
> Speaker: POST-*PONE!!!*


This highlights my thoughts. I would never say the t is postpone unless it was for emphasis or clarification. i.e.

Person A: Our soccer game got postponed yesterday.
Person B: What happened?
Person A: It got post-poned.

[EDIT] Looking back at my post, if you use the participle of postpone and pronounce the initial /t/, it sounds quite wierd.


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## Brioche

majlo said:


> List at least, say, 5 of them, please.
> 
> All my dictionaries - _Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary_ - say there is no /t/ in _postpone_. In _Webster's Third New International Dictionary _the transcription has /t/ in brackets.


 

Daniel Jones's _English Pronouncing Dictionary_ gives
/poʊs_t_/ and /pəs/ for the first syllable - in that order.
(Note the italicised _t_ means that it is commonly omitted).

Collins gives /poʊst/ and /pəs/ 

Macquarie gives /poʊst/ and /poʊs/


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## mjscott

Close your eyes and think of the front hemisphere of your head as the left side of a clock. Your neck is as 6 o'clock, the top of your head is 12 o'clock, the back of your throat is the center of the clock, and your mouth at 9 o'clock. 

Now say _postpone_ with the unreleased stop (that may be inaudible to some). Do you feel that the muscles in your projection go from about between 9 and 10 down to around 7 as you pronounce?

Now say _posspone_ without the unreleased stop. There is a difference in your projection of where the sound comes out and which muscles are doing the work.

Some can hear the difference and it makes words sound sloppy. On its own merit I would not notice it--but if someone were sloppy elsewhere as well in speech, I would start listening carefully to their diction (don't ask me why--I'm just that kind-of gal). I wouldn't think of pronouncing _postpone_ without the unreleased stop (even if I'm the only one that can hear it)!


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## mariposita

I believe the pronunciation should be with the squiggly /ʊ/

poʊstˈpoʊn (pronounced, pohst' pohn)



I agree with what was said above. Those dialects that accentuate the first syllable more (AE, for example) have a clearer pronunciation of the /t/).


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## majlo

/pE’spEUn/



That's the pronunciation I'm familiar with, and which I use.


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## Edgardg

majlo said:


> /pE’spEUn/
> 
> 
> 
> That's the pronunciation I'm familiar with, and which I use.



I believe the usual BrE prounciation of postpone is /peust'peun/.
Cheers, E


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## majlo

The PWN-Oxford dictionary provides the pronunciation I gave.


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## Edgardg

majlo said:


> The PWN-Oxford dictionary provides the pronunciation I gave.



The one I gave is from _Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary._


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## majlo

Edgardg said:


> The one I gave is from _Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary._



Got that one too, and indeed it's /pEUst’pEUn/ in there. However, when you click on the pronunciation the /t/ sound is barely audible.

As for the PWN-Oxford version, I prefer that one because it's shorter and, I think, in rapid speech people reduce the first diphthong to just /p/ and schwa, with possible pronouncing of /t/. I think you'd be understood by most native speakers, and not only, whether you pronounce it  /pEUst’pEUn/ or  /pE’spEUn/.


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## Edgardg

majlo said:


> Got that one too, and indeed it's /pEUst’pEUn/ in there. However, when you click on the pronunciation the /t/ sound is barely audible.
> 
> As for the PWN-Oxford version, I prefer that one because it's shorter and, I think, in rapid speech people reduce the first diphthong to just /p/ and schwa, with possible pronouncing of /t/. I think you'd be understood by most native speakers, and not only, whether you pronounce it  /pEUst’pEUn/ or  /pE’spEUn/.



Majlo, I don't study English, but as far as I know you can't reduce the diphtong to just /p/ and shwa, because /p/ is not part of the diphthong. Here, /eu/ is the diphthong and not /peu/ and thus, as such, cannot be reduced to /p/. Another thing is schwa. It doesn't appear in this transcription.


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## timpeac

Edgar - I don't understand what you've written there, but Majlo's correct, it could be realised p'spone (in BE at least, I suspect not in AE). Maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying.


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## Dale Texas

hmmm....one little question and look at the thread! Interesting, though, because we've got native English speakers all over the U.S. and Britain discussing it, and claiming both versions, which does not surprise me.

My suspicion is that all native speakers are using this unreleased but might not be aware of it, obviously I can't prove that.

Probably all in the discussion are aware of unreleased t's, but just in case not, they are most noticeable in final position, my favorite example being being as in "Hit." Sit." Or, two in a row, "Hit it!" Very different then the aspirated, released t's, and not something you would normally be aware of unless pointed out to you.

Toungue goes up to form the t but does not release. Yet the native ear can still hear a difference, usually, and without the release you'd have "hi, si, hi i" which goes beyond rapid speech or slurring or regional differences.

I'd agree that unreleased t's are barely audible, almost by definition, but in these monsyllabic examples their absence robs the sound of any word meaning. 

Like I said, I can't prove this, we'd have to hook us all up to sound equipment, but I suspect almost all native speakers are in fact articulating the final t of post just as they do when saying hit, it, etc., and even in an invented word of histpone would not actually sound out "his'pone without the unreleased t, but the sibilant quality of the s might make one unaware of it.


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## majlo

I think Edgardg didn't take into account the fact that in the word _postpone _the last syllable is stressed, and not the first one. And thus, the _/_pEUst/  can be reduced to just /pE/ or even /p/ like timpeac said.


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## timpeac

Dale Texas said:


> My suspicion is that all native speakers are using this unreleased but might not be aware of it, obviously I can't prove that.


That's my suspicion too - we don't always speak as we think we hear. We hear phonemically and so we might think we hear a /t/ even if it is realised as an unusually long [s] for example.

Remember for Brits that we make big use of glottal stops rather than an alveolar-dental stop which does affect the mechanics of which phonemes we release etc.


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## Edgardg

timpeac said:


> Edgar - I don't understand what you've written there, but Majlo's correct, it could be realised p'spone (in BE at least, I suspect not in AE). Maybe I've misunderstood what you're saying.



Hi Timpeac,

I know that "postpone" can be realised as p'spone. What I wrote refered rather to metalanguage (if I can say so) used by Majlo. He wrote that
*
"people reduce the first diphthong to just /p/ and schwa, with possible pronouncing of /t/."

*To me you cannot shorten the diphthong to "p" because ''p" is not part of the diphtong. If /peu/ would constitute a diphthong, than yes, that would be true. What's more, as far as I know the schwa symbol is */ə/. *In the trascription of "postpone" you don't have any schwa but two diphthongs. 
However, I am not a student of English and I may be wrong. If anyone sees a mistake (mistakes) in my reasoning I would be grateful for pointing it/them out to me .

With best wishes
Edgar


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## timpeac

Oh, I see. Yes - the first phoneme /p/ remains unchanged but it is true that the following vowel(s) that can be realised as schwa.


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## Edgardg

I see. Could you transcribe it for me? Thank you


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## timpeac

Edgardg said:


> I see. Could you transcribe it for me? Thank you


Sure - [pəspəʊn]


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## Edgardg

timpeac said:


> Sure - [pəspəʊn]



Thanks


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## panjandrum

I hear the suggestion that the _*t *_I think I pronounce isn't really there.
You could be right.
I think I hear a _*t*_ in the WR dictionary voice.
I think it is doing what I do, a passing touch on the _*t*_ between _*s*_ and _*p*_.

Pestle, on the other hand, gets a very definite t, like pistol and pestilence.
Often also gets a very definite _*t*_.

I should point out again (it's a while since the last time) that the Northern Irish version of English usually pronounces the sounds it sees in the spelling of the word. There's a _*t*_ in that word? Pronounce _*t*_.
Edit - except when we don't - in words like castle or bristle


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## cirrus

This side of the Irish sea, people who put a T sound in pestle are very much a minority. Certainly in England most speakers would make the ending rhyme with castle or bristle where there is a schwa then an l.


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## Forero

I tend to pronounce and not release my _t_s except before a vowel, so I pronounce the _t_ in _postponed_, but I don't release it.  My _t_ is easy to hear because it clips short the _s_ sound (in a _t_-like way) and creates a silence before the second _p_.  If I have to talk really, really fast, I might skip it (for example when arguing not to postpone an important meeting).

In _often_, my _o_ is slightly more open than in _door_ but is a long ways from an _ah_.  In my pronunciation, there is no _t_ sound whatever in _pestle_ or _castle_, but a clear, released (but barely aspirated) _t_ sound in _pistol_ and _pestilence_.

I didn't invent my pronunciation of these words.  Up until I was about 12 years old, this is the only way I had ever heard them pronounced.


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## Trinibeens

Dimcl said:


> As a Canadian born and bred, I always pronounce the "t"... go figure!
> 
> My question is, if you don't pronounce the "t" in "postpone", how do you say "postman" or postpartum or postmenopausal?


 
I'm with you.  I always pronounce the "t" in postpone, postpartum,  postmenopausal, and postdated.  And of course we don't say "postman" in the U.S.!  

I think it is an 'over the pond' difference.


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## Forero

Trinibeens said:


> I'm with you.  I always pronounce the "t" in postpone, postpartum,  postmenopausal, and postdated.  And of course we don't say "postman" in the U.S.!
> 
> I think it is an 'over the pond' difference.



The word "postman" was common where I live until the term "mail carrier" was coined to avoid the notion that all mail carriers were male.


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## mariposita

We always said mailman. But if I were to say postman (or postpone, postpartum, etc) I would pronounce the /t/.


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