# un certain ordre (prononciation)



## dcx97

Hello,

In the sentence "Il faut choisir des numéros dans un certain ordre." is the word "certain" pronounced as though it were "certaine"?

Thanks in advance!


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## tartopom

Wow, yes. Sounds like 'certaine'.


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## Itisi

I would say it sounds like 'certain nordre'...


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## plantin

Pour ma part, je dis "certènordre". Mais je crois avoir déjà entendu la prononciation de Itisi.


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## dcx97

Thank you. Why the "wow" though?


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## tartopom

The wow cos I've never realised before that I pronounced certaine.   un certènordre. See?


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## dcx97

Oh, I see. I knew that "ordre" would be pronounced "nordre" in this case, but I wasn't sure if "certain" would continue to be pronounced "certain" or become "sertè" (an imaginary word).

1. certain nordre
2. sertè nordre


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## broglet

Itisi said:


> I would say it sounds like 'certain nordre'...


Not really. The general principle for working out how liaisons influence vowel sounds is to pronounce each syllable starting with a consonant: cer tai nor dre.  Another example which amazed me when I first discovered it: le divin enfant = le di vi nen fant


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## Itisi

You are right, *broglet*, I wouldn't say 'divin nenfant'!


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## OLN

La dénasalisation de la voyelle nasale finale a été discutée ici : un certain âge - prononciation & liaison (forum FS).

Intéressant article : Phonétique combinatoire : Liaison avec les voyelles nasales
Précision du _Bon usage_ : 





> Après _un_, _aucun_, _commun_, _on_, _rien_, _bien_, _en_, la liaison se fait sans dénasalisation de la voyelle : _un ami_ [ôe-nAmil, _aucun homme_ [okôe-nom], _d'un_ _commun accord_ [komôe-nAkoR]


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## jekoh

Itisi said:


> You are right, *broglet*, I wouldn't say 'divin nenfant'!


I wouldn't say "divin nenfant" either, but I still say "certain nordre", not "certaine ordre".



dcx97 said:


> 1. certain nordre
> 2. sertè nordre


Both are possible, it depends on the person (or maybe on the region).


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## dcx97

Thanks!


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## broglet

jekoh said:


> I wouldn't say "divin nenfant" either, but I still say "certain nordre", not "certaine ordre".
> Both are possible, it depends on the person (or maybe on the region).


Very interesting jekoh ... when you say "certain nordre" do you nasalise the 'ain' or do you say 'cer ta nordre'?


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## jekoh

broglet said:


> when you say "certain nordre" do you nasalise the 'ain' or do you say 'cer ta nordre'?


Yes, "_certain nordre_" with nasal '_ain_', that's the whole point of spelling it this way.

Basically the liaison here as far as I'm concerned is just the addition of an 'n' between the two words.


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## broglet

that's what I thought ... do many French people pronounce it that way?


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## jekoh

It's probably about half and half.


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## Oddmania

I say "certain + nordre" too: /sɛʁtɛ̃.nɔʁdʁ/.


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## dcx97

jekoh said:


> It's probably about half and half.



Except, of course, those who do not do a liaison here. Similarly, someone mentioned that "divin enfant" is always pronounced "divi nenfant", which is true in the sense that nobody ever says "divin nenfant", but there must, of course, be people who do not do the liaison at all here.


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## Oddmania

I can't imagine anyone _*not *_doing the liaison. It really is compulsory. However, you may or may not denasalise the vowel depending on the adjective and the whole collocation.

"Il est né, le divin enfant" is a very well-known Christmas carol, so most people would repeat what they've heard most often: namely, "divine enfant". However, that doesn't mean no one ever says "divin n-[WORD THAT START WITH A VOWEL]".


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## dcx97

Thanks!


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## broglet

The pronunciation "certain nordre" seems odd to me because it suggests that there are two ns - one to nasalise the vowel, the other to create a liaison. Also I can't imagine a nasalised vowel 'ain' followed by 'nordre' without a glottal stop. Otherwise it would just sound like 'certanordre'.


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## janpol

Je prononce /sɛʁtɛnɔʁdʁ/ mais j'ai l'impression de dire le second ɛ de "certain" à la fois plus vite et moins fort que le reste.
Je me préparais à faire une remarque disant que les "natifs" croyants et pratiquants  entendent chanter ce chant religieux dès leur tendre enfance et qu'ils répètent "divi nenfant" sans se poser trop de questions... et Oddmania a été plus rapide que moi... Certains, parfois, se posent - et vous posent - la question "Pourquoi dit-on "divine" pour parler de Jésus ?" "Effectivement, on ne devrait pas puisque "enfant" est masculin"... Argument non recevable puisque ce mot peut être féminin... Cela complique les choses... "Oui, mais si l'auteur avait voulu qu'il soit féminin, (après tout, Marie a sa part de divinité, elle aussi mais sa naissance a sans doute moins défrayé la chronique que celle de son rejeton), il aurait écrit "Elle est née, la divine enfant".


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## tartopom

And if the noun is in the plural form eg ' certains amis' I pronounce "certains zamis étaient présents', ' certains zordres sont stupides'.


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## dcx97

Thanks!


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## jekoh

broglet said:


> The pronunciation "certain nordre" seems odd to me because it suggests that there are two ns - one to nasalise the vowel, the other to create a liaison.


Whether it is odd or not, that's just the way it is. Similarily, 'un nhomme' (not 'une homme'), see OLN's post #10.



broglet said:


> Also I can't imagine a nasalised vowel 'ain' followed by 'nordre' without a glottal stop. Otherwise it would just sound like 'certanordre'.


And how do you think we pronounce "_certain numéro_", if not with a nasal vowel followed by 'n'? No glottal stop needed. A nasal vowel is just a vowel, it has no 'n' sound in it.


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## broglet

tu as raison jekoh ... aucun besoin d'un coup de glotte. But I have heard French politicians separating words with what sound like glottal stops in what are meant to be liaisons ... apparently to create extra emphasis.


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## dcx97

broglet said:


> The pronunciation "certain nordre" seems odd to me because it suggests that there are two ns - one to nasalise the vowel, the other to create a liaison. Also I can't imagine a nasalised vowel 'ain' followed by 'nordre' without a glottal stop. Otherwise it would just sound like 'certanordre'.



I just heard someone say "Cet enfant est très bien élevé."

He clearly said "bien nélevé", not "biè nélevé".

So that's another place where the "n" does double duty.


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## broglet

Very interesting dcx97 - a clear case of having one's liaison cake and eating it, as though the speaker started by not intending to make a liaison and then after saying 'bien' forgot what he was intending to do. 

In general I suspect that the apparent introduction of a second 'n' that isn't really there has a psychological relationship to the common error of repeating the word 'is' in sentences such as "The thing is ... is that ... " What seems to be happening is that people forget what they have just said when they are between words.


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## Oddmania

I don't really share your views, Broglet. Some words such as _bien_, _rien_ or _ancien _("bien élevé; rien à faire; ancien élève") are always pronounced both with the _liaison _and the nasal vowel. French pupils often write "On *n'*a vu" instead of "On a vu", for that matter. Other words, like _plein _("plein air, plein emploi"), get denasalised.


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## jekoh

As I understand it, the explanation for these "nasal vowel + n" liaisons is ancient pronunciations that, due to the high frequency of the words in question, never disappeared.


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## broglet

Oddmania said:


> I don't really share your views, Broglet. Some words such as _bien_, _rien_ or _ancien _("bien élevé; rien à faire; ancien élève") are always pronounced both with the _liaison _and the nasal vowel.


very interesting - but in these cases isn't the vowel at least partially denasalised?


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## Oddmania

How so? My '_bien_'s sound identical in "bien élevé" and "bien mangé".


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## AH92

OLN said:


> La dénasalisation de la voyelle nasale finale a été discutée ici : un certain âge - prononciation & liaison (forum FS).
> 
> Intéressant article : Phonétique combinatoire : Liaison avec les voyelles nasales
> Précision du _Bon usage_ :



Are you sure? Is "aucun employé" really pronounced "aucun nemployé", i.e. without denasalization?


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## Itisi

AH92 said:


> Are you sure? Is "aucun employé" really pronounced "aucun nemployé", i.e. without denasalization?


Yes!  Definitely not 'aucune employé'.

Anyway, there isn't a problem each time one uses the indefinite article 'un', is there!


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## Locape

If you pronounce 'aucune employé', then it's feminine, not masculine anymore, so it seems you're talking about a woman. In this example, you always do the liaison without denasalization.


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