# Urdu: "You didn't even" and "either"



## Todd The Bod

I'm thinking of a situation like "Yesterday while you were in the park reading, a bird landed on your shoulder and you didn't *even* notice.  Then again when you were there reading today, it landed on your shoulder again and you dind't notice this time *either*". 

How would I express "even" and "either" in a similiar situation in Urdu?  My attempt: "kal jab tum paRthe hwe the park pe, ek bird ne tum par perching kia, leykyn tum ne meHsuus hi nehi kia.  Or aj bird ne vapas aya or tum par perching dubara kia, lekyn yy dafa tum ne meHsuus hi bhi nehi kia..."


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## Birdcall

bhii works. Like in Akele Hum Akele Tum when the kid falls down and gets cut, "bahut khuun aayaa, lekin mai.n royaa bhii nahii.n"

for "this time either," maybe "is baar bhii" or "phir se bhii"


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## panjabigator

My simple suggestions:

<kal jab tum park mei.n parh rahe the, ek chiryā tumhāre ka.ndhe par aa kar baiṭh gayā aur tumhe.n patā nahii.n chalā>

or <aur tumei.n uskā hosh nahii rahaa>

<phir, aaj phir se jab tum vahā.n parh rahe the, woh dobārā tumhāre ka.ndhe par baiṭh gayā aur is dafā tumhe.n phir bhī patā nahī.n chalā>


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## Birdcall

Is there a difference between dubaaraa and dobaaraa? Is one Persian and one Hindi?


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## panjabigator

I think they're both the same word and from Persian.  Urdu spells it with a "vao" and Hindi with a "chhoṭā u".

Are they pronounced the same?  I lean towards the latter pronunciation.


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## Birdcall

I've seen it spelled both ways in Hindi. I also pronounce it with a short u, but I've heard it pronounced dobaaraa with a clear o in songs.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> My simple suggestions:
> 
> <kal jab tum park mei.n parh rahe the, ek chiryā tumhāre ka.ndhe par aa kar baiṭh gayā aur tumhe.n patā nahii.n chalā>
> 
> or <aur tumei.n uskā hosh nahii rahaa>
> 
> <phir, aaj phir se jab tum vahā.n parh rahe the, woh dobārā tumhāre ka.ndhe par baiṭh gayā aur is dafā tumhe.n phir bhī patā nahī.n chalā>


 Good work PG! I might just tweak these a little bit, as follows:

<_kal jab tum park mei.n paRh rahe the, ek chiRiyā tumhāre ka.ndhe / shaane par aa baiThii aur tumne ghaur hii nahii.n kiyaa_ * / _aur tumhe.n uskā hosh hii nahii hua >_

* here we can’t use _uska_ and we don’t want to use _uspar _- gives a different meaning. Actually I prefer the second ending with _hosh_!

<_ aaj phir__ jab tum vahā.n paRh rahe the, woh dobārā tumhāre ka.ndhe / shaane par aa baiṭhii aur is daf3ah bhii tumne ghaur nah kiyaa / aur is daf3ah bhii tumhe.n uskā hosh nah huaa / hosh nahii.n aayaa _>

The underlined words in the context here mean _hii _= even; _bhii_ = either --- as Birdcall mentioned.

You really don’t need _phir_ 2x. Also, _se_ is not needed. Also, we have:

چڑیا_ chiRiyaa_ = female sparrow *or* a bird - always feminine!
چڑا_ chiRaa / _چڈا_ ch*i*DDa male sparrow – _masculine, of course!

But if you want to be really general about a bird, then you can also use: _parindah_ پَرِنْدَہ (not paraanda!) though most people would just make do with _chiRyaa_.



Birdcall said:


> I've seen it spelled both ways in Hindi. I also pronounce it with a short u, but I've heard it pronounced dobaaraa with a clear o in songs.



Yes Bridcall! That is how we say it too!


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## panjabigator

Thanks for the corrections and suggestions, both of you.  

People don't seem to say <chiṛā> though, right?


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## Todd The Bod

I've got quite a way to go still, lol.  Thanks.  What do "ka.ndhe" and "shaane" mean?



panjabigator said:


> My simple suggestions:
> 
> <kal jab tum park mei.n parh rahe the, ek chiryā tumhāre ka.ndhe par aa kar baiṭh gayā aur tumhe.n patā nahii.n chalā>
> 
> or <aur tumei.n uskā hosh nahii rahaa>
> 
> <phir, aaj phir se jab tum vahā.n parh rahe the, woh dobārā tumhāre ka.ndhe par baiṭh gayā aur is dafā tumhe.n phir bhī patā nahī.n chalā>


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## Birdcall

kandhaa means shoulder. I think shaanaa does too


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## Todd The Bod

I noticed neither meHsuus nor eHsaas were idiomatic here. Trying to freestyle after learning new words is not easy, lol. Once again, immersion is going to be necessary for a person to to program himself to use what people are using I guess...



Faylasoof said:


> Good work PG! I might just tweak these a little bit, as follows:
> 
> <_kal jab tum park mei.n paRh rahe the, ek chiRiyā tumhāre ka.ndhe / shaane par aa baiThii aur tumne ghaur hii nahii.n kiyaa_ * / _aur tumhe.n uskā hosh hii nahii hua >_
> 
> * here we can’t use _uska_ and we don’t want to use _uspar _- gives a different meaning. Actually I prefer the second ending with _hosh_!
> 
> <_ aaj phir__ jab tum vahā.n paRh rahe the, woh dobārā tumhāre ka.ndhe / shaane par aa baiṭhii aur is daf3ah bhii tumne ghaur nah kiyaa / aur is daf3ah bhii tumhe.n uskā hosh nah huaa / hosh nahii.n aayaa _>
> 
> The underlined words in the context here mean _hii _= even; _bhii_ = either --- as Birdcall mentioned.
> 
> You really don’t need _phir_ 2x. Also, _se_ is not needed. Also, we have:
> 
> چڑیا_ chiRiyaa_ = female sparrow *or* a bird - always feminine!
> چڑا_ chiRaa / _چڈا_ ch*i*DDa male sparrow – _masculine, of course!
> 
> But if you want to be really general about a bird, then you can also use: _parindah_ پَرِنْدَہ (not paraanda!) though most people would just make do with _chiRyaa_.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Bridcall! That is how we say it too!


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## Koozagar

kandha and shaana both mean shoulder. kandha is more commonly used in Punjab, Pakistan. I believe kandha is Punjabi and kaandha, with alif beween kaaf and noon will be the correct Urdu pronunciation. Not entirely sure though. Could someone comment?


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## panjabigator

We say <kandhā> in Hindi and <muḍhā> (مڈھا) in Punjabi, at least in my house.  Do people say شانا?


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## Koozagar

Thanks PG. You are right. Moda is the punjabi word. Shaana is not as commonly used as kandha or kaandha.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> We say <kandhā> in Hindi and <muḍhā> (مڈھا) in Punjabi, at least in my house.  Do people say شانا?



Yes PG! شانہ  _shaanah _is used in everday Urdu speech as are other expressions using this word. But we also use _kandhaa_ کندھا (shoulder), as well as kaandhaa كاندھا  - as in _kaandhaa denaa_ = to lend support; carry the coffin etc.


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## Birdcall

I have also heard "___ ko kandhaa denaa" (never kaandhaa though), meaning the same thing as "___ kaa sahaaraa karnaa."


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## Faylasoof

Birdcall said:


> I have also heard "___ ko kandhaa denaa" (never kaandhaa though), meaning the same thing as "___ kaa sahaaraa karnaa."



This _is_ used in Urdu!


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## panjabigator

Faylasoof said:


> Yes PG! شانہ  _shaanah _is used in everday Urdu speech as are other expressions using this word. But we also use _kandhaa_ کندھا (shoulder), as well as kaandhaa كاندھا  - as in _kaandhaa denaa_ = to lend support; carry the coffin etc.



I've heard the Punjabi equivalent <modhā deṇā> used in a religious context as well; in the morning, when the Guru Granth Sahib is carried to its place in the Golden Temple (a symbolic awakening), it's carried on a palanquin (or something similar - anyone know?).  People assist in transportation by, literally, lending a shoulder.


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## Birdcall

I just remembered that "tak" is also used to mean "not even," as in "tumne mujhe chiTThii likhii tak nahii.n" (you didn't even write me a letter)


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## panjabigator

Birdcall said:


> I just remembered that "tak" is also used to mean "not even," as in "tumne mujhe chiTThii likhii tak nahii.n" (you didn't even write me a letter)



Good example!


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