# Die or dice?



## ShaggyVinny

Dear all,

While reading the manual of a board game I've recently purchased, I noticed that the word "die" was often used as the singular of "dice". I've always used the word "dice" for both plural and singular (one dice, two dice, three dice, etc..) 

"Die" seems a bit odd to me. Which word would you use when talking about a single dice?

Thank you


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## sdgraham

Die is correct, but not well known, despite the exceedingly well-known expression, "the die is cast."

I use "die" all the time, however.


> I've always used the word "dice" for both plural and singular (one dice, two dice, three dice, etc..


Horrors.


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## ShaggyVinny

sdgraham said:


> Die is correct



I guess the game designers opted for this singular of "dice" to make it very clear when to use one dice and when to use several.

Thanks for your input!


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## sdgraham

ShaggyVinny said:


> I guess the game designers opted for this singular of "dice" to make it very clear when to use one dice *die* and when to use several.


That's as bad as Americans referring to one panini.


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## dojibear

I've played lots of games where you use a single die. So I am used to the word. I've also played games where the dice you use are not 6-sided cubes. They are 3-, 8-, or 20-sided. 

But people who don't play many games are not used to seeing the word "die". The most well-known games (craps and other gambling games, backgammon, monopoly, parcheesi) all use 2 dice.


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## dojibear

ShaggyVinny said:


> I guess the game designers opted for this singular of "dice" to make it very clear when to use one dice and when to use several.
> 
> Thanks for your input!



Did the game designers use "dice" for one die? In post #1, I thought you said they (correctly) used "die".


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## JulianStuart

sdgraham said:


> That's as bad as Americans referring to one panini.


(Or three raviolis )


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## Pertinax

The OED attributes the use of singular "dice" to an obsolete French singular. At any rate, it is long established: 
1474  _* And on eche dyse was a syse. *_
1557  _* I haue a dice of Brasse*_

From memory, earlier threads found some kind of AE/BE split, with BE speakers more likely to use "dice" as a singular.  In AuE, the use of singular "die" in a game might sound precious, if indeed it was understood at all.


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## ShaggyVinny

@Pertinax: We don't get aussie feedback very often, thanks 

I had never heard "die" for one dice until I started playing boardgames. I've always used "dice", regardless of the number I use.

Thank you all for your answers


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## ShaggyVinny

sdgraham said:


> Horrors.



Is using "dice" for singular incorrect though? The dictionary on my computer says otherwise.


dice |dʌɪs|

noun (pl.*same*)

*1 *a small cube with each side having a different number of spots on it, ranging from one to six, thrown and used in gambling and other games involving chance. See also *die2*.


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## Rover_KE

ShaggyVinny said:


> "Die" seems a bit odd to me. Which word would you use when talking about a single dice?


I say 'a dice' and suspect most native speakers do so, too.

I suggest you join the majority, ShaggyVinny, whilst respecting the views of those who prefer to say 'a die'.


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## DonnyB

I'd use "dice" for the singular, too.  

Oxford Dictionaries Online have this usage note:
"Historically, dice is the plural of die, but in modern standard English dice is both the singular and the plural: throw the dice could mean a reference to either one or more than one dice".


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## giginho

sdgraham said:


> That's as bad as Americans referring to one panini.





JulianStuart said:


> (Or three raviolis )



Even pepperoni pizza is hilarious as hell, but, regarding the die/dice issue, I'm a bit confused: which one shall I use? 

One dice, two dice while talking to British
One die, two dice while talking to Americans ?


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## heypresto

It's a singular dice for me too. 'Die' always sounds pretentious and/or pedantic to me.

Except in 'The die is cast'.


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## Edinburgher

sdgraham said:


> I use "die" all the time, however.


It's good to stick to your principles.  I hope you always use "data" exclusively as a plural.

I guess people say "dice" because of the old saying, "Never say die!"  {with apologies to Matt Parker}


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## Glenfarclas

I hear and use "die" as the singular and it has never sounded at all strange or pretentious to me. "I rolled a dice" sounds almost as bad to me as "I saw some sheeps."


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## DonnyB

Pertinax said:


> From memory, earlier threads found some kind of AE/BE split, with BE speakers more likely to use "dice" as a singular.  In AuE, the use of singular "die" in a game might sound precious, if indeed it was understood at all.


That's what's definitely now coming across to me in this thread.


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## Loob

giginho said:


> Even pepperoni pizza is hilarious as hell, but, regarding the die/dice issue, I'm a bit confused: which one shall I use?
> 
> One dice, two dice while talking to British
> One die, two dice while talking to Americans ?


That looks like a reasonably safe option.

Here are a couple of previous threads* which also appear to indicate that the tendency in BrE is to use "dice" for the singular whereas AmE-speakers use "die":
die/dice
singular of "dice"


*probably the ones rembered by Pertinax


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## kingdomlee

It's funny to learn the different expression of the same thing in both AE and BE.


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## Randisi.

A die sounds precious and affected to these American ears.


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## Myridon

Glenfarclas said:


> "I rolled a dice" sounds almost as bad to me as "I saw some sheeps."


I agree. The most common thing to say while playing a game is "Roll the dice" so I have no problem when people say "Roll the dice" in a game that only uses one or other related situations where one might say "*the *dice" - Get the dice out of the box, where are the dice for this game, etc.  You don't really care if there is one, two, or five - "the dice" is the singular "the number generator for this game."

However,  to me, I think it sounds very odd to say "dice" in sentences where it is very clearly singular like "This game includes *a* dice." or "This game includes more than *one *dice."


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## ShaggyVinny

After reading the different posts on this thread, there seems to be two different trends. (*one die* -> more common in AE / *one dice* more common in BE or AuE).


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Randisi. said:


> A die sounds precious and affected to these American ears.



Really?  To my American ears, "this game uses a single twelve-sided *die*" sounds normal and ordinary, while "this game uses a single twelve-sided *dice*" sounds ignorant and illiterate.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

This thread is to die for...



Pertinax said:


> The OED attributes the use of singular "dice" to an obsolete French singular. At any rate, it is long established:
> 1474  _* And on eche dyse was a syse. *_
> 1557  _* I haue a dice of Brasse*_
> 
> From memory, earlier threads found some kind of AE/BE split, with BE speakers more likely to use "dice" as a singular.  In AuE, the use of singular "die" in a game might sound precious, if indeed it was understood at all.



I thought "*dice (plural dice, dices)*" was Australian for "Any of various small freshwater fishes of the family Cyprinidae, resembling and related to the minnows."* 

*Definition of "dace" from American Heritage.

P.S. I say 'one die, two dice' too.


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## entangledbank

I don't know what I would have said before I played role-playing games, but in those everyone used singular 'die', as also in special terminology like 1d4 for one 4-sided die. I was aware that this was not the common use outside, but after all, these are the people who might commonly need to talk about rolling one die.

If I was playing Monopoly with the family, and one of the dice (that's a good get-out) fell on the floor, what would I say? I'm going to pick up the die? dice? Both sound odd or wrong there. I couldn't say the dice, because the other one is right there on the table, but I might expect mention of the die to be answered with 'the what?'


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## sdgraham

GreenWhiteBlue said:


> Really?  To my American ears, "this game uses a single twelve-sided *die*" sounds normal and ordinary, while "this game uses a single twelve-sided *dice*" sounds ignorant and illiterate.


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## dungeonmarm

I often play games that use dice. We always use "die" as the singular. Singular "dice" is a mistake commonly made by people who don't use them very often.

Anyone making an effort to use standard grammar should say "a die" instead of "a dice".


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## zaffy

So what will a BE speaker say here in this AE example? 

"We need to get *a die* if you want to play this game."


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## DonnyB

zaffy said:


> So what will a BE speaker say here in this AE example?
> 
> "We need to get *a die* if you want to play this game."


I would say "get a dice".  I don't think I've ever heard anyone use "die" as the singular in real life.


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## Loob

zaffy said:


> So what will a BE speaker say here in this AE example?
> 
> "We need to get *a die* if you want to play this game."


My answer is given in post 18.


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## zaffy

DonnyB said:


> I would say "get a dice".  I don't think I've ever heard anyone use "die" as the singular in real life.





Glenfarclas said:


> "I rolled a dice" sounds almost as bad to me as "I saw some sheeps."



I see.  I thought it was BE which stuck to the grammar rules more, but it occurs it is AE sometimes


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## heypresto

I'm still sticking with what I said two years ago in post #14.


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## Andygc

zaffy said:


> I thought it was BE which stuck to the grammar rules more


It's nothing to do with grammar. The BE for the thing used in a dice game is a "dice" and it's plural is "dice". In AE the singular form is "die". The vocabularies used in AE and BE are very similar, but they diverge. Words like "rubber" and "fag" come to mind.


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## Myridon

There are very few games that use one die so the opportunity to say "die" is pretty rare for most people.   I think it's a word that many people learn as a "trivia fact" rather than from usage.  I'm sure I never said "die" as a child.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

It looks as though what has been posted above ("one die, two dice" is grammatically correct, "one die/two dice" is trans-Atlantically different usage... but only in general, and it's really more a question of idiolect [or maybe in my case, 'idiotlect'?]' ;for what it's worth,  I say 'die').


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## kentix

It's a die to me.


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## Packard

heypresto said:


> It's a singular dice for me too. 'Die' always sounds pretentious and/or pedantic to me.
> 
> Except in 'The die is cast'.


Or resolve that issue by simply saying _Alea iacta est, _which is how Julius Caesar was supposed to have said it.  (I learned that in 1965, and while my short term memory is not so good anymore I still retain morsels from the distant past).

Dice are reportedly the oldest form of gaming going back prior to 1200 BC (or thereabouts when Troy fell).

Dice | game pieces

_Dice and their forerunners are the oldest gaming implements known to man. Sophocles reported that dice were invented by the legendary Greek Palamedes during the siege of Troy, whereas Herodotus maintained that they were invented by the Lydians in the days of King Atys. Both “inventions” have been discredited by numerous archaeological finds demonstrating that dice were used in many earlier societies. _


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## zaffy

sdgraham said:


> well-known expression, "the die is cast."



And can we 'cast' a dice/die in games? Or do we just 'roll' or 'throw' it?


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

In a game, I'd say "roll the dice". (The expression "to roll the dice" is also used colloquially to mean "to try one's luck", "to take a chance","to risk it".)


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## zaffy

'Throw' is not commonly used like Longman says?


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## Uncle Jack

When I was at school in the 1970s, "die" being the singular for "dice" was drummed into us, as I imagine it was into other children at the time. At home and elsewhere, a single die was always "a dice". However, "die" appears to have stuck, since almost everyone I have known in later life who plays games involving dice uses "die" when referring to just one of them. However, I suspect that most people who don't regularly play such games still say "a dice" on the rare occasions when they need it.


zaffy said:


> And can we 'cast' a dice/die in games? Or do we just 'roll' or 'throw' it?


Definitely roll or throw. The two terms are probably used interchangeably in BrE.


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## Packard

My issue with "die is cast" is that *die casting *is a metal forming technique.  It is a widely used term whereas "die is cast" is a rarely used phrase.  I would not use it.  Of course context would rule out any confusion, but still...

From a consumers' point of view, Hot Wheels (toy cars) die cast.  And a good number of chrome plated plumbing fixtures are too.


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## zaffy

So if there is one die in a game, will an AE speaker say "It's your turn to roll the die"? Or is "roll the dice" a set phrase also used in AE?


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

zaffy said:


> So if there is one die in a game, will an AE speaker say "It's your turn to roll the die"? Or is "roll the dice" a set phrase also used in AE?



Sorry, but quite simply: some of us will say "die" and others will say "dice". Whichever you say when playing a game in which these cubes are used, it'll be OK and no eyebrows will be raised; just say whichever the English-speakers who are playing with you say.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

By the way, I hope this isn't "listing", but  but "to toss the dice" is also common, perhaps a bit more in the figurative sense.


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## Andygc

When I was at school in the 1960s, no teacher ever said anything about "die" or "dice". It seems an odd topic to drum into schoolchildren. Unless Uncle Jack's English teachers were intent on turning out a batch of croupiers...    
Or perhaps it was preparation for Liar Dice "I'm only going to roll one die."


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## zaffy

Am I right as for these conversations?

Say someone is looking for the single die that was included in the game.
BE:
A: Tom, have you seen the *dice* from this boardgame?
B: *It*'s in your drawer.

AE: 
A: Tom, have you seen the *die* from this boardgame?
B: *It*'s in your drawer.



Say someone is looking for the two dice that were included in the game.

BE:
A: Tom, have you seen the *dice* from this boardgame?
B: *They*'re in your drawer.

AE: 
A: Tom, have you seen the *dice* from this boardgame?
B: *They*'re in your drawer.


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## JulianStuart

You frequently seem to seek "black and white" differences between AE and BE.  In many cases, like this one, the use of die/dice singular/plural is variable in _both_ AE and BE.


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## Uncle Jack

One thing is right, though. We would never mix up "it" (singular) and "they" (plural), not unless we didn't know whether "dice" referred to one die or many dice. "Dice" is countable, so we wouldn't use "it" for a pile of dice like we would "it" for a pile of sugar.


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## zaffy

Uncle Jack said:


> One thing is right, though. We would never mix up "it" (singular) and "they" (plural), not unless we didn't know whether "dice" referred to one die or many dice. "Dice" is countable, so we wouldn't use "it" for a pile of dice like we would "it" for a pile of sugar.


So what if you don't know the number of dice someone is looking for? Which answer would you pick?

A: Tom, have you seen the *dice* from this boardgame? 
B: No, I haven't. What colour *is it*? /What colour *are they*?


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## JulianStuart

B: How many are there?


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## Uncle Jack

zaffy said:


> So what if you don't know the number of dice someone is looking for? Which answer would you pick?
> 
> A: Tom, have you seen the *dice* from this boardgame?
> B: No, I haven't. What colour *is it*? /What colour *are they*?


You'd just guess, based on what you know (if anything). This situation is common and doesn't faze anyone:
A: Have you seen my sheep?​B: No, I don't think so. What does it look like?​A: It? It?? I've lost a whole flock of them!​Okay, so perhaps it isn't that common.


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## S1m0n

sdgraham said:


> That's as bad as Americans referring to one panini.


Or drinking one martinus.


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## Roxxxannne

I believe that 'drinking one martino' supplanted the earlier form only in the 6-7th centuries CE.  Before that it was 'drinking one martinum' (accusative singular, direct object of 'drinking').

But seriously, If someone lost the dice to a board game I'd ask "where did you last see them?" or something like that. For one thing, the board games I've played usually use two dice, and for another I am perfectly happy using the singular die and the plural dice (although I object to wags using 'rie' for one grain of rice). 

This thread reminds me of the etymology of _pea/peas_, in which _pease _was both singular and plural and the singular _pea_ developed from it.


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## PaulQ

zaffy said:


> So what if you don't know the number of dice someone is looking for? Which answer would you pick?
> 
> A: Tom, have you seen the *dice* from this boardgame?
> B: No, I haven't. What colour *is it*? /What colour *are they*?





JulianStuart said:


> You frequently seem to seek "black and white" differences between AE and BE. In many cases, like this one, the use of die/dice singular/plural is variable in _both_ AE and BE.


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## kentix

I'd be pedantic and say "roll the die", if I had to. I can't call one die "dice".

But that's why we do our best to avoid it in the first place. It's too much trouble.

"Roll already! It's your turn."


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

zaffy said:


> So what if you don't know the number of dice someone is looking for? Which answer would you pick?
> 
> A: Tom, have you seen the *dice* from this boardgame?
> B: No, I haven't. What colour *is it*? /What colour *are they*?



I'd use the plural.


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## Edinburgher

zaffy said:


> So what if you don't know the number of dice someone is looking for? Which answer would you pick?
> 
> A: Tom, have you seen the *dice* from this boardgame?
> B: No, I haven't. What colour *is it*? /What colour *are they*?


I would pick the plural answer.  This is not only because technically "dice" is a plural, and I'd be looking forward to giving A a lecture about it, but also because in my experience most board games do in fact use several dice.

Pedantic aside:
Actually, I would give neither answer.  I would not need to ask about the colour.  If I had seen some blue dice, and did not know what colour dice A was looking for, I couldn't have given the answer "no I haven't".  I'd have had to have said "*I don't know*. What colour are they?".  I could only have said "*No I haven't*" if I had not seen *any* dice of *any* colour.


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## DonnyB

zaffy said:


> So what if you don't know the number of dice someone is looking for? Which answer would you pick?
> 
> A: Tom, have you seen the *dice* from this boardgame?
> B: No, I haven't. What colour *is it*? /What colour *are they*?


I think I would assume the game was likely to have more than one (most of the ones I've played do) and use the plural "they".


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