# 毛泽东 - 毛 (surname)



## Encolpius

Hello, I wonder what 毛 means the Chairman's name. My dictionary says a lot of meaning but how natives consider his family name? I find some meanings negative (gross, careless). Thanks.


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## brofeelgood

It merely serves as a surname. There's no correlation to any of the possible meanings of the word.

You probably got "careless" from 毛手毛脚 (sloppy, slapdash).

Possible uses of "gross" (= total, whole) are 毛利 (gross profit) and 毛重 (gross weight). Compare them to 净利 (net profit) and 净重 (net weight).


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## Encolpius

Yes, it is hard to understand there is no correlation....since European Christian surnames usually raise links common words (Smith, Brown, Schmiedt, etc..)
So it is not Mr. Hair or Mr. Feather? Chinese consider it in a different way?


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## Skatinginbc

To me, 毛 as a surname connotes "feather/hair" or "a  feathery/hairlike/tufted object". Because 毛泽 is actually a term  attested in 《穀梁传》 concerning grain crops, the 毛 in 毛泽东 evokes the image of "feathery/hairlike panicles of a cereal grass" in my mind.


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## brofeelgood

Well, according to one widely accepted explanation, 毛 was the name of a vassal state during the Shang/Zhou dynasty. The populace simply adopted it as their family name. It's definitely not a Mr. Hair or Mr. Feather. 

A "Mr. Smith" or "Herr Schmidt" could perhaps trace his lineage to an ancestor who worked as a blacksmith, but like you said, this doesn't work for all names. I can't imagine a Mr. Hooker explaining the provenance of his family name the same way.


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## fyl

Encolpius said:


> Yes, it is hard to understand there is no correlation....since European Christian surnames usually raise links common words (Smith, Brown, Schmiedt, etc..)
> So it is not Mr. Hair or Mr. Feather? Chinese consider it in a different way?



It depends on how common the name is.
For the very common family names like 张, 李, no one will connect them with their meanings (张 means open, 李 is a kind of fruit). The function that these characters serve as family names has become a major meaning in our mind.
For the very rare family names like 死, 操, people do connect them with their meanings when appear in a sentence, and this can be funny or annoying.
毛 is kind of in the middle. 毛 is not a very common family name in most places, so sometimes people will make connections with 毛's meanings. On the other hand, 毛 is also not very rare and 毛泽东 is known by everyone, so people won't make those connections most of the time.

As for the origin of the Chinese family names, according to some materials, 毛 came from (1) an ancient state name 毛国 in Zhou dynasty, and (2) some other non-Han ethnic groups changed their family name to 毛 when they merged in to Chinese people.
(My impression is that most Chinese family names are from these two types of origins.)


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## Skatinginbc

Believe it or not, I associate the 毛 in 毛国 with cereal crops.  It is  possible that the state gained its name from its fecund agricultural  land (穀梁傳注: 凡地之所生謂之毛; cf. 不毛之地).  Let me put it this way: Duke of Ji 祭公 is not Duke Meaningless in my mind.  The name creates a mental image of a minister in charge of divination and ancestral worship.  Similarly, Duke of Mao 毛公 is not Duke Meaningless, either.  That name leads me to envision a minister in charge of agriculture.  Of course, I'm not trying to define those names.  I'm just stating what connotations they might evoke in people's minds.


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## retrogradedwithwind

Let me explain at several levels.

First, all characters when used as family names means nothing though some less common ones may cause others' imaginations.

Second, all family names have their own origins. Most Of them Ororiginate from the names of states that existed before Christ. And what those states were named after is another question.

Third, Chinese often give their children good characters as given names. And chinese also have 族谱 in which 
毛泽东，字润之。
Chinese have several different given names, two of which are 名 and 字.
毛泽东，姓毛名泽东字润之。


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## brofeelgood

I found this interesting definition of 毛泽: 指润泽禾苗的水分。《穀梁传·定公元年》：“毛泽未尽，人力未竭，未可以雩也。” 范宁 注：“ 邵 曰‘凡地之所生谓之毛’……言秋百穀之润泽未尽也。”

雩 (yú) - 古代为求雨而举行的一种祭祀

This seems to define 毛泽 as the water (rain) that's needed to nourish (grow) the cereal saplings.


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## Skatinginbc

指润泽禾苗的水分 ==> In that case, 毛 refers to the hairlike cereal grass shoots, and 泽 "rain, dew, or moisture".  And 毛 + 泽 together, as Brofeelgood correctly pointed out, means "the water needed to nourish the cereal grass shoots".
To me, the name 毛泽东 means 施毛泽于东 "to nourish the Orient with life-sustaining water" (like 泽民 means 施恩惠于民).

PS: I just noticed what retrogradedwithwind wrote: 毛泽东，姓毛名泽东字润之。 His courtesy name 润之 "to moisten it" supports my interpretation of the name 毛泽东.


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## Ghabi

Some philologists believe 毛 (as in 不毛) is simply a phonetic loan for 苗, instead of a metaphorical usage. Cf.:

《說文》卷五虎部*虦*：「虎竊毛謂之虦苗。从虎戔聲。竊，淺也。」段玉裁注：「（略）按毛苗古同音。苗亦曰毛。如不毛之地是。（略）」


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## Skatinginbc

To me, the basic meaning of 毛 is "woolly covering".  If on the skin, it  is "fur, hair, or feather"; if on  the soil, it is "grass 芼, sprouts 苗,  or moss 霉" (Note: "Grass" includes cereal grass species such as rice, wheat, barley, sorghum, etc.).  不毛之地 is a  barren, not covered by vegetation.  

毛 (*_C.maw_ > _*maw_), 芼 (*_maw-s_), 苗 (*_m_(_r_)_aw_), and 貓 (*_C.mraw_ > _mraw_)  are homophones or near homophones in Archaic Chinese.  Although their   mutual substitution can be explained as phonetic loans, they might have   shared the same base root.  For instance, 芼 (*_maw-s_), which contains a suffix -s, and 苗 *_m__r__aw_, which contains an infix -r-, are perhaps metaphorical derivatives from the same root 毛  _*maw _"woolly covering".  貓 in Archaic Chinese is assumed to be a disyllabic word (Baxter-Sagart *_C.mraw_), corresponding to what 段玉裁 said: "具言之曰虦苗(disyllabic *_C.mraw_)。急言之則但曰苗(monosyllabic *_mraw_).  Its pre-initial 虦/虥 (i.e., *_C_ in Baxter-Sagart's notation) is perhaps realized as  *_tsʰ-_ in Archaic Chinese, the same sound as the onset of 竊 *_tsʰet _or 淺 *_tsʰen_ʔ   (段玉裁: 竊虥淺亦同音也)  It seems to be a diminutive prefix meaning  淺 also   written as 竊 (e.g., 竊藍，竊黃，竊丹 = 淺藍, 淺黃, 淺丹).  Thus 貓 or 虦苗 basically  means 淺毛 (《傳》貓，似虎淺毛者也).  By the time of the Han  Dynasty, the  pre-initial of 貓 was apparently dropped (段玉裁: 許書以苗爲貓也) and  hence became  homophonous with 苗. 


Ghabi said:


> Some philologists believe 毛 (as in 不毛) is simply a  phonetic loan for 苗, instead of a metaphorical usage.


I think "phonetic loan" and  "metaphorical usage" are not mutually  exclusive.  A phonetic loan may be  motivated by a metaphorical usage,  and a metaphorical usage may be  motivated by phonetic similarity. 


fyl said:


> For the very common family names like 张, 李, _*no one* _will connect them with their meanings (张 means open, 李 is a kind of  fruit).


_*I *_(perhaps I'm an alien ) normally would before I decide that my attempt to connect them is unsuccessful. For instance, I see 張騫 as a name composed of two parallel verbs (唐.李華.含元殿賦：「騫龍首而張鳳翼」) and 李林甫 as "man of the plum orchard" (李林之甫).  林虎 （1887－1960） is the Chinese equivalent of Tiger Woods.  李陵 (？－74 BC)  means exactly the same as Plum Hill, a town in Washington County, Illinois. 林森 (1868－1943) obviously means 森林, and 張弦（1973－） obviously means 張弦 "draw a string".

To me, the personal name 毛遂 (as in 毛遂自薦) means 五穀生長 (毛 = 五穀; 遂 = 生長). The 毛 in 毛鴻翽 (字振羽 1787—1866) and 毛鳳綸 (清朝官員) clearly connotes "feather".


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## Encolpius

Thank you, friends, I really didn't expect the problem is soooo complex....


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## retrogradedwithwind

很多词不知道怎么翻译啊……

关于毛名字的由来，可以看看这个
http://blog.sina.cn/dpool/blog/s/blog_614375770102e1za.html?


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> all characters when used as family  names means nothing though some less common ones may cause others'  imaginations.


I find it difficult to accept that statement.  I  believe our brains work this way: All characters used as family  names--no matter common or rare--are presumed to have a meaning until  proven otherwise.  Our brains process a name like processing a sentence  or phrase.  When we see the name 毛球, we interpret it as "hairball, furry  ball" (like 高球 "high ball"); when we see the name 張羅, the database in our brains tells us it might be related to expressions like 到處張羅, 張羅款待, 張羅捕鳥, etc.   It is like reading a string of words: We presume every word has a  meaning until our attempts to make sense of the string fail, and then  our brains conclude that the surname in that particular name is  "meaningless" (i.e., the surname and the given name do not cohere).   Even then, I doubt that the so-called "meaningless" truly means nothing  at all.  Every word, even in an incoherent string (e.g., "hair swamp  east"), evokes varying degrees of connotations.  And those connotations _mean_ something.  

In the case of 毛泽东, some people see the coherence between his surname and his given name and therefore believe 毛 has a meaning, and those who don't see a connection believe it is meaningless.  That's all.  Only 毛's parents have the "correct" answer.


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## Encolpius

Skatinginbc said:


> I find it difficult to accept that statement.  I  believe our brains work this way: All characters used as family  names--no matter common or rare--are presumed to have a meaning until  proven otherwise.  Our brains process a name like processing a sentence  or phrase....



Some members here really made me feel Chinese consider names in a really different way... and I was surprised with 毛 because I found it a common word.  In European languages people think first of people only in less common words like thatcher....


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## retrogradedwithwind

Yes, 毛 is an everyday word. Those common words surely cause less associations when used as surnames.

Skat, we discuss a question on two different levels.
I mean, a Chinese surname now has no inherent meanings like this
        ①Andrew -- 表示刚强
　　②Frank -- 表示自由
　　③Catherine -- 表示纯洁
　　④Helen -- 表示光明

And of course, a full name as a whole impresses itself on the readers' minds. Those readers will interpret a full name in the way you describe. But I disagree with you on how to parse "毛泽东”.

It should be 毛｜泽东. 毛 is meaningless here.
At last, it is beyond my ability to explain why 毛泽东 was named this way. You can see that article.


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## fyl

Skatinginbc said:


> _*I *_(perhaps I'm an alien ) normally would before I decide that my attempt to connect them is unsuccessful.





Skatinginbc said:


> I find it difficult to accept that statement.  I  believe our brains work this way: All characters used as family  names--no matter common or rare--are presumed to have a meaning until  proven otherwise.  Our brains process a name like processing a sentence  or phrase.



Sorry but this sounds very alien to me. My brain never works in that way. For 张 or 李, their function as family names is as common as (or even more common than) their other meanings. When I see 张 or 李 out of context, I will consider them as family names before thinking about any real meanings.
In fact, I am not so sure about your theory about explaining your own perceptions. There are many characters that have many different meanings. When you see them, which meaning comes to your mind first? Being a family name is also a "meaning", why does this come last? I would say most people read a whole word or phrase at a time, and we don't even think about the meaning of each character too much. Perhaps the reason is that you are too proficient in classic Chinese.

As for the full name 毛泽东, I will never even think about what 毛泽 means. Obviously, 毛 is the family name, 泽 is the character indicating generation, only 东 is given by his parents. Usually in such a 3-character Chinese name, the last two 泽东 can be meaningful if his parents were good at playing with words. It is alien that the first two characters 毛泽 are split from the name and interpreted.


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## SuperXW

As long as all the characters in a name are common, and together they don't sound obviously similar to common words, people would just perceive it as a name.


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