# profundo/a (país, cultura)



## hyla_arborea

Hello,
I want to say "la España profunda", refering to Castilla, the traditional culture. Can I say "the deep Spain"? I have never heard any expresion for that so I am totally lost...
Thanks in advance


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## Marxelo

Yes, I think you can say Deep Spain although I don't know if you can relate it to Castilla specifically.


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## Idiomático

I am not familiar with the expression _España profunda_ in Spanish and do not believe _Deep Spain_ would be understood (at least in the US) as a reference to Castile or the traditional culture of Spain.


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## Oldy Nuts

Sorry, but I don't associate the term "España profunda" with Castilla or any other region in particular... Maybe you were thinking of "Castilla profunda"?


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## hyla_arborea

Hi,
 It looks like "Deep Spain" would work in my context. In Spain we can associate Castilla with deep Spain (regarding it is one of the poorest and less developed regions in Spain) but also other regions. We can also talk about the "Andalucía profunda" refering to the agricultural and traditional Andalucía VS. coastal and touristical andalucía. I guess in Spanish we can use the expression for any region or part of it (for a region difficult to reach, "in the middle of nowhere", less developed and more traditional).

Thanks to everybody!


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## Oldy Nuts

The Diccionary of the RAE says this about "profundo/a":

*10. *adj. Dicho de una comunidad: Conservadora, tradicional, resistente a la influencia externa. _En la Cataluña profunda se conserva aún esa costumbre._

Therefore, as I said, "España profunda" does not apply to any particular region of Spain.

If you say it does apply to Castilla in the context you are using the expression -which you haven't given- perhaps you'll understand why the rules of these forums ask for the context to be given when asking a question...


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## Idiomático

Oldy Nuts said:


> The Diccionary of the RAE says this about "profundo/a":
> 
> *10. *adj. Dicho de una comunidad: Conservadora, tradicional, resistente a la influencia externa. _En la Cataluña profunda se conserva aún esa costumbre._
> 
> Therefore, as I said, "España profunda" does not apply to any particular region of Spain.
> 
> If you say it does apply to Castilla in the context you are using the expression -which you haven't given- perhaps you'll understand why the rules of these forums ask for the context to be given when asking a question...


 
This is interesting.  I looked in the RAE dictionary on the Web and did not find this meaning of _profundo.  _I'd like to know what issue of the dictionary has it.  In any case, I still believe that the term _Deep Spain_ would not convey the same meaning in American English.  The only comparable term I know is _the_ _Deep South, _which refers specifically to a geographical area (according to the OED, the southernmost part of the US, esp. the states adjacent to the Gulf of Mexico).


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## mariposita

I agree with Idiomático. Not only would "the deep Spain" not really be understood, it doesn't really sound natural from a syntactic point of view. Diría algo como:

> the deepest, most traditional parts of Spain
> the cultural backwaters of Spain 

Este segundo es más peyorativo o negativo--como es frecuentamente "la España profunda".


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## Oldy Nuts

Idiomático said:


> This is interesting. I looked in the RAE dictionary on the Web and did not find this meaning of _profundo. _I'd like to know what issue of the dictionary has it.


 
At the top of the "profundo" page, there is a red box that says "Artículo enmendado" (by no means the only case). If you click on it, you get what will come in the next edition of the Dictionary.


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## Moritzchen

I´m guessing it would be something like "tierra adentro"?
(Sorry, no idea on how to translate it either)


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## la zarzamora

Idiomático said:


> This is interesting. I looked in the RAE dictionary on the Web and did not find this meaning of _profundo. _I'd like to know what issue of the dictionary has it. In any case, I still believe that the term _Deep Spain_ would not convey the same meaning in American English. The only comparable term I know is _the_ _Deep South, _which refers specifically to a geographical area (according to the OED, the southernmost part of the US, esp. the states adjacent to the Gulf of Mexico).


 
But does not the expression "Deep South" conveys a bit more than just a geographical area?


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## Idiomático

la zarzamora said:


> But does not the expression "Deep South" conveys a bit more than just a geographical area?


 

Not according to the dictionary.  People, of course, associate the expression with the culture of that area; however, Deep Spain [or France, or England] does not produce the same result--it just creates confusion.


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## la zarzamora

Idiomático said:


> Not according to the dictionary. People, of course, associate the expression with the culture of that area; however, Deep Spain [or France, or England] does not produce the same result--it just creates confusion.


 
Could it work if -in a variation on mariposita's try- "deepest Spain" is used instead?


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## Idiomático

la zarzamora said:


> Could it work if -in a variation on mariposita's try- "deepest Spain" is used instead?


 

I don't know about that.  You may have something there, but I'd have to see a sizable portion of the text to issue an opinion.  Wouldn't it be easier to understand if one just said _...in conservative, traditional Spanish culture...?_


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## la zarzamora

Idiomático said:


> I don't know about that. You may have something there, but I'd have to see a sizable portion of the text to issue an opinion. Wouldn't it be easier to understand if one just said _...in conservative, traditional Spanish culture...?_


 
Yes, of course it would. But it would be nice to find a short phrase to define that.


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## elirlandes

I think that "deepest" Spain is appropriate. It is used often for Africa - deepest Africa - to describe places which are not easy to get to, and where things are still function as per tradition.


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## Idiomático

la zarzamora said:


> Yes, of course it would. But it would be nice to find a short phrase to define that.


 

Yes, it would.  Let me know if you find one.


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## la zarzamora

Idiomático said:


> Yes, it would. Let me know if you find one.


 
I thought you natives were going to look for one.


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## Moritzchen

Acá hay algo sobre España profunda. La define un poco más.


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## canton

I agree with English speakers that "Deep Spain", even "deepest Spain" would be obscure terms. The expression "la España profunda" is also unclear to many other Spanish speakers outside Spain.


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## Oldy Nuts

canton said:


> I agree with English speakers that "Deep Spain", even "deepest Spain" would be obscure terms. The expression "la España profunda" is also unclear to many other Spanish speakers outside Spain.



What is clear to me is that one cannot refer to Castilla, or to any other single region of Spain, as "la España profunda".


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## ampurdan

What about "the Spanish heartland"? It would refer to Castille, because Castille happens to be in the middle of Spain, but I'm not sure if it has that traditional and conservative connotation.


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## Moritzchen

Inner Spain?


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## xnavar

Hello
La España Profunda (like la América profunda la Australia profunda...) is a concept, not a place. It can be used refered to a particular region or not, with the same meaning: it's a way to call people living there as backward, ignorant, reactionary, supertitious, etc.
Regards


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## la zarzamora

canton said:


> I agree with English speakers that "Deep Spain", even "deepest Spain" would be obscure terms. The expression "la España profunda" is also unclear to many other Spanish speakers outside Spain.


 
I am not going to argue with a English native speaker about what does or does not sound good in English. But the concept of "la España profunda" is perfectly well understood by me and I am from Argentina.


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## Oldy Nuts

We seem to be confusing terms. What I'm saying is that one cannot use the term "España profunda" as a synonymous for Castilla, or for any particular region in Spain. As you say, it's a concept, not a place.


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## Idiomático

xnavar said:


> Hello
> La España Profunda (like la América profunda la Australia profunda...) is a concept, not a place. It can be used refered to a particular region or not, with the same meaning: it's a way to call people living there as backward, ignorant, reactionary, supertitious, etc.
> Regards


 
If that is what _España profunda_ really means maybe the equivalent English expression would be _backwater Spain._


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## mariposita

Idiomático said:


> If that is what _España profunda_ really means maybe the equivalent English expression would be _backwater Spain._


 
That's what I suggested toward the beginning of the thread:

The cultural backwaters of Spain

This is exactly what "la España profunda" means in most contexts.


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## Idiomático

mariposita said:


> That's what I suggested toward the beginning of the thread:
> 
> The cultural backwaters of Spain
> 
> This is exactly what "la España profunda" means in most contexts.


 
Right, Mariposita!  So much has been said on this thread that I had forgotten your posting.  I was not familiar with the expression _España profunda _before I saw it here, but now that it has been thoroughly dissected by many I see what you meant.


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## la zarzamora

Idiomático said:


> If that is what _España profunda_ really means maybe the equivalent English expression would be _backwater Spain._


 
I think that "backwater Spain" has a much more negative connotation than "España profunda".


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## mariposita

la zarzamora said:


> I think that "backwater Spain" has a much more negative connotation than "España profunda".


 
La España profunda can (and usually does) have a negative connotation.


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## la zarzamora

mariposita said:


> La España profunda can (and usually does) have a negative connotation.


 
Mmmm... I am not so sure. La España profunda refers to people -and the places they live in- that are living in the past, people who keep the old ways alive. They keep tradition alive. So it does not necessarily mean something bad.


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## xnavar

Sorry, la zarzamora, but I desagree: the term _*profunda*_ has always a negative connotation, at least in Spain.
When we talk about _*la España profunda*_, we're really talking about male chauvinism, lack of culture, old religious superstitions... this kind of things.
Maybe some of them are "traditions", but not exactly the good ones.


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## la zarzamora

xnavar said:


> Sorry, la zarzamora, but I desagree: the term _*profunda*_ has always a negative connotation, at least in Spain.
> When we talk about _*la España profunda*_, we're really talking about male chauvinism, lack of culture, old religious superstitions... this kind of things.
> Maybe some of them are "traditions", but not exactly the good ones.


 
Ok, maybe in Spain. I do not know why but I did not have such a negative idea of the concept (not that I would like to live in "la España profunda" thank you very much)
But lack of what culture? City culture?


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## cal aggie

I don't think there is a short phrase in English that conveys this. Perhaps the closest would be "the heart of Spain" (in the US there is a phrase that comes from a song: "deep in the heart of Dixie") that refers to the "Deep South."


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## Moritzchen

Podría reemplazarse por "España al desnudo"?
De ser así, tal vez encontremos otras vías para la traducción.


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## mariposita

> Podría reemplazarse por "España al desnudo"?


 
Es que no significa exactamente esto... En España existe la idea (desde hace mucho tiempo) de "dos Españas"--la España moderna y progresiva y la España profunda y resistente a todo tipo de cambio. No es que una sea "la España real." Son dos mentalidades que coexisten (a veces en una especie de conflicto).


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## cal aggie

That is probably true just about everywhere, but I can't think of a non-pejorative term (a pejorative term would be "redneck"). The closest thing in the US would be the recent use of the term "red state" and "blue state."


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## mariposita

Yes, it's similar to the notion of "red state/blue state" but here it isn't as geographically oriented. La España profunda can be almost anywhere... as someone else said, it is a state of mind. Spain is different. 

*Redneck *refers to a very specific type of person (more or less *un* *paleto* here).


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## Moritzchen

mariposita said:


> Es que no significa exactamente esto... En España existe la idea (desde hace mucho tiempo) de "dos Españas"--la España moderna y progresiva y la España profunda y resistente a todo tipo de cambio. No es que una sea "la España real." Son dos mentalidades que coexisten (a veces en una especie de conflicto).


Thank you Marips. 
This is turning to be a fascinating subject. I knew nothing about "España profunda".


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## la zarzamora

mariposita said:


> Yes, it's similar to the notion of "red state/blue state" but here it isn't as geographically oriented. La España profunda can be almost anywhere... as someone else said, it is a state of mind. Spain is different.
> 
> *Redneck *refers to a very specific type of person (more or less *un* *paleto* here).


 
"La España profunda" is always -always-in the rural areas. Although some people living in the cities may have a state of mind similar to those living in "la España profunda". But this is stretching the concept. 
Of course you are going to find "paletos" in the country and also living on Serrano street, but people from "la España profunda" are not necessarily "paletos". They may be simple but they do not lack wisdom. 
Some people associate the concept with intolerance, but I do not think that is correct.
It was mentioned before something about "la España profunda" as synonym with Castilla, and someone dismissed the idea. I think it is not entirely wrong, given that the personality of the people and the type of geography of Castilla make them perfect examples of "la España profunda". 
There.


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## mariposita

I don't agree... Extremadura, Andalucia, Murcia, Asturias, Navarra... you could find "La España Profunda" in any of them. Also, you can find small progressive sorts of pueblos in Castilla that don't have anything to do with "la España profunda." In fact in one small place you can find "la España profunda" and "la España moderna" coexisting. That's what I meant when I said it isn't a purely geographic distinction.



la zarzamora said:


> Of course you are going to find "paletos" in the country and also living on Serrano street, but people from "la España profunda" are not necessarily "paletos". They may be simple but they do not lack wisdom.


 
I agree with this wholeheartedly. And a pejorative name for a person (like redneck or hick) isn't at all equivalent to the idea that "la España profunda" conjures up.


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## la zarzamora

mariposita said:


> I don't agree... Extremadura, Andalucia, Murcia, Asturias, Navarra... you could find "La España Profunda" in any of them. Also, you can find small progressive sorts of pueblos in Castilla that don't have anything to do with "la España profunda." In fact in one small place you can find "la España profunda" and "la España moderna" coexisting. That's what I meant when I said it isn't a purely geographic distinction.
> 
> Ok, I checked with my Spanish husband and you are right.
> I was making statements based on my experience, maybe it was a coincidence that the country people I came across in rural Andalucia or Galicia (two very different regions) were very welcoming and non judgemental at all. I cannot say the same about people from the country in Castilla-La Mancha or Castilla-Leon. Again, only personal experience.
> So you are right, "la España profunda" can be found anywhere in Spain.
> Or maybe not in the Canary Islands.....
> Well, I do not know anything anymore. Good luck to you all.
> 
> I agree with this wholeheartedly. And a pejorative name for a person (like redneck or hick) isn't at all equivalent to the idea that "la España profunda" conjures up.


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## Oldy Nuts

Does anyone remember the original question by now?



> I want to say "la España profunda", refering to Castilla, the traditional culture.



I know I am repeating myself, but in my opinion there is a mistake in this question. As has been written by several participants, the term "España profunda" can equally well apply to any region in Spain, not only to Castilla in particular. It would perhaps be all right to say that "Castilla es un (buen) ejemplo de la España profunda", but it would be wrong to say "Tomé contacto con la España profunda" to mean that one has been in Castilla, and not in any other place in Spain. This has been my point since the beginning, but it seems I have not been sufficiently clear...


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## la zarzamora

Oldy Nuts said:


> Does anyone remember the original question by now?
> 
> 
> 
> I know I am repeating myself, but in my opinion there is a mistake in this question. *As has been written by several participants, the term "España profunda" can equally well apply to any region in Spain, not only to Castilla in particular. It would perhaps be all right to say that "Castilla es un (buen) ejemplo de la España profunda", but it would be wrong to say "Tomé contacto con la España profunda" to mean that one has been in* *Castilla, and not in any other place in Spain*. This has been my point since the beginning, but it seems I have not been sufficiently clear...


 

You are 100 % right.

I think I got confused somewhere down this thread and started babbling. That always happens to me when threads become too long, I never check the original question.
Sorry...


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## Oldy Nuts

No, you haven't been babbling at all. This has been a very interesting, enlightening and useful discussion. Luckily the original poster hasn't come back since almost the beginning, and no mod has closed the thread for having gone off topic. Which, on second thoughts, I'm not sure it has...


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## la zarzamora

Oldy Nuts said:


> No, you haven't been babbling at all. This has been a very interesting, enlightening and useful discussion. Luckily the original poster hasn't come back since almost the beginning, and no mod has closed the thread for having gone off topic. Which, on second thoughts, I'm not sure it has...


 
It was quite a wide topic, so it was difficult to go off it. So I do not think we did.


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