# ホームで化粧というのは、女大学的女子のたしなみと照らし合わせて



## sekaijuuni

This is from an essay about young people behaving rudely on trains. The author has just recounted a recent incident; an older woman scolded a girl for doing her makeup on the platform and the girl got angry and pushed the old woman towards the train tracks. The girl claims she was only dabbing at her sweat, not doing her make-up. Then, the author writes:

ホームで化粧というのは、女大学的女子のたしなみと照らし合わせてみれば、あってはならぬ行為でしょう

My working translation is:

A girl of good breeding would find doing one's make-up on the platform unacceptable. 

Do I have at least the sense of the passage? I'm especially confused by what the author's trying to get at with 女大学的女子. Does it refer to the kind of girl who would go to such a school or to a girl who would emulate the behavior of students at a women's college?

よろしくお願いします！


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## Flaminius

女大学 is not a women's college but this moral booklet that advocated self-deprecation and servitude for women living in the feudal Japan.

女大学的女子のたしなみ should be analysed as consisting of adjectival 女大学的 and the modified noun 女子のたしなみ.  女大学 here seems to be used as a metaphor for the rigorous tradition.


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## Morrow

sekaijuuni said:


> ホームで化粧というのは、女大学的女子のたしなみと照らし合わせてみれば、あってはならぬ行為でしょう
> My working translation is:
> A girl of good breeding would find doing one's make-up on the platform unacceptable.



What kind of writer is he or she?  
"女大学(Onna-Daigaku)" was popular during the late stages of the Edo period. The reference is way out of date.

But if you will have it so, "In terms of the teachings of Onna-Daigaku, doing one's make-up on the platform would be unacceptable bahavior." or "Seen from the perspective of an old woman who was brought up in the teachings of Onna-Daigaku or something similar, doing one's make-up on the platform would be the kind of behavior that she simply couldn't tolerate." might work.

If the focus is just on "*女大学**的**女子のたしなみ*," it could be "*good manners for ladies* *based on or related to the teachings of* *Onna-Daigaku*."

For what Onna-Daigaku actually says, see http://www.tanken.com/onnadaigaku.html.

There seems to be no mention of doing one's make-up, whether it is on the platform or not, though.

Morrow


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## sekaijuuni

Thanks for the link, Morrow! I'll take a look at it 



Morrow said:


> What kind of writer is he or she?
> "女大学(Onna-Daigaku)" was popular during the late stages of the Edo period. The reference is way out of date.



The author is Sakai Junko and I know absolutely nothing about her. The notes on the essay say that she's a household name because of a book she wrote urging single, childless women over 30 to "embrace their loser status and make the most of it." Unfortunately, the PDF is blurry and all I can make out of the title is "Makeinu."


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## sekaijuuni

Flaminius said:


> 女大学 is not a women's college but this moral booklet that advocated self-deprecation and servitude for women living in the feudal Japan.
> 
> 女大学的女子のたしなみ should be analysed as consisting of adjectival 女大学的 and the modified noun 女子のたしなみ.  女大学 here seems to be used as a metaphor for the rigorous tradition.



Thank you, Flaminius! Everything's much clearer now


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## Starfrown

Is the effect of 合ってはならぬ rather like "[surely] must not match [the standards of onna-daigaku]"?


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## Wishfull

Hi, Starfrown.
I agree with you in a sense, but don't in another sense.

Considering the deep meaning of the original sentence, your interpretation is correct. The true meaning of the sentence contains what you said.

But just considering the structure of the sentence, just thinking about the grammar, the subject of 合ってはならぬ　must be ホームで化粧というの.

ホームで化粧というのは、(女大学的女子のたしなみと照らし合わせてみれば、)あってはならぬ行為でしょう
ホームで化粧というのは, あってはならぬ行為でしょう
_Making-up on a platform is an unacceptable conduct, isn't it?_

I think the answer of your question might be yes and no, according to the point aiming at.
Is what I'm saying out of the point?


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## Morrow

sekaijuuni said:


> The author is Sakai Junko and I know absolutely nothing about her.


Thank you for your information.  But actually I didn't mean it as a real question but a rhetorical question: It would be surprising if he or she were an author in its true sense.

Sorry, but I have to say this:
The author either 
doesn't know about today's Japan, which is OK,
or simply she doesn't know what she is saying, which is also understandable because it is not uncommon for amateur writers,
or,
which is worst, 
she may pretend to be who she wants you to believe her to be, which is no longer OK.

The mention of "女大学的女子" in this context and only in this context tells us who she is and (unfortunately for her,) who she is not.
Morrow


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## Starfrown

Wishfull said:


> But just considering the structure of the sentence, just thinking about the grammar, the subject of 合ってはならぬ　must be ホームで化粧というの.
> 
> 
> ホームで化粧というのは、(女大学的女子のたしなみと照らし合わせてみれば、)あってはならぬ行為でしょう
> 
> ホームで化粧というのは, あってはならぬ行為でしょう
> 
> _Making-up on a platform is an unacceptable conduct, isn't it?_


 
I think there must be some minor misunderstanding between us.

Should we consider 合ってはならぬ行為 literally as "conduct that [surely] must not be suitable"?

I'm used to seeing ~てはならぬ used in a prohibitive (or nearly prohibitive) sense.  I.e. "You must not do such and such" "It won't do to do such and such"  It doesn't seem as though it's being used in that way here.


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## Flaminius

Hello *Starfrown*,

The あって in あってはならない is from ある, not あう.  Literally "[which] that must not exist", it is "unacceptable," "should not" and so on in varying contexts.

I think the 照らし合わせる bit confused you.  In fact, it comes across redundant and pompous.  たしなみからみれば or たしなみからすれば is enough.


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## Wishfull

Hi, Starfrown.
Sorry. Things are getting beyond my capacity. I'm at a loss now. I can't understand your point now. I hope your question has soloved by Flaminius's comment.

By the way, I have another question now. I think* 'm* might be typo. Are you correct?
I am always confusing about "used to" and "be used to".

_I'm used to seeing ~てはならぬ used in a prohibitive (or nearly prohibitive) sense. I.e. "You must not do such and such" "It won't do to do such and such" It doesn't seem as though it's being used in that way here. _

And 合ってはならぬ is typo. 有ってはならぬ　is correct.

I'll read these replys again and again. And if I will understand properly, I will reply.Sorry of my poor understanding.


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## Starfrown

Wishfull said:


> Hi, Starfrown.
> Sorry. Things are getting beyond my capacity. I'm at a loss now. I can't understand your point now. I hope your question has soloved by Flaminius's comment.
> 
> By the way, I have another question now. I think* 'm* might be typo. Are you correct?
> I am always confusing about "used to" and "be used to".
> 
> And 合ってはならぬ is typo. 有ってはならぬ　is correct.


 
Thank you for your concern.  Yes, Flaminius answered my question.  My thanks to him as well.

Also:

I'm used to seeing = I'm accustomed to seeing


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## Wishfull

Thank you, Starfrown.
I solved the puzzle in my head just now.
 I understand "be used to" too. Thanks again.


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## sekaijuuni

Morrow said:


> Thank you for your information.  But actually I didn't mean it as a real question but a rhetorical question: It would be surprising if he or she were an author in its true sense.
> 
> Sorry, but I have to say this:
> The author either
> doesn't know about today's Japan, which is OK,
> or simply she doesn't know what she is saying, which is also understandable because it is not uncommon for amateur writers,
> or,
> which is worst,
> she may pretend to be who she wants you to believe her to be, which is no longer OK.
> 
> The mention of "女大学的女子" in this context and only in this context tells us who she is and (unfortunately for her,) who she is not.
> Morrow



For a while, she talked about how it is becoming more acceptable to do one's make-up on the train and how young people are generally unaware of their surroundings, so I thought it was leading up to denouncing outdated standards of public behavior. But she ends the essay by saying that she fears for the moral character of society now that some girls are growing up riding exclusively in 女性専用車両 (which she also refers to as 「堂々と化粧ができる車両」). I had hoped to debate with you after finishing the article but you were definitely right; her mention of 女大学的女子 was quite telling after all...


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