# "can" and "may" when asking for permission



## Lun-14

velisarius said:


> For me, there's nothing wrong with "can" when you ask for permission to do something. It's what nearly everyone uses nowadays, in BE.



I want to ask in which situations I should use "can" and in which situations I should use "may".
Would you please guide me in this regard?

*Some examples:*

- An employee while entering their boss's office//
A student while entering their teacher/principal office.
says: *May/can* I come in sir/ma'am?


- A teacher lectures his students about "Different phenomena of light" in the class. When the teacher finishes their lecture, a student stands up and asks: *May/can* I ask you why the sky is blue?


- A kid feels thirsty during the lecture. He stands up and asks his teacher: *May/can* I go outside to drink some water, sir/ma'am?


- I'm in a shopping mall. My phone's battery is dead. I have to make a necessary call to my mother. I stop a stranger and say: I need to make an urgent call;* may/can* I use your cellphone, please?


- I send a PM to a native speaker:
*May/can* I ask you a few questions regarding "coordinating conjunctions"?


- A stranger knocks at my door (I live 25 kilometers away from Amritsar) and says:
I'm on travelling; I have to go to Amritsar. I need to pee. *May/can* I use your washroom?


- I'm at one of my brilliant students' home. I taught her in the university. She is now married and has four children. I want to see her wedding photos. I say: *May/can* I see your photos?


Thanks very much


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## Cenzontle

You haven't asked a question, but I suppose you wonder about the difference between "may" and "can".
I would suggest that "may" seems more formal, more polite, and more appropriate for strangers, or for situations where you don't know whether permission will be granted.
"Can" seems more informal, for use with a friend, especially if you know that permission will be granted.


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## rituparnahoymoy

Cenzontle said:


> You haven't asked a question, but I suppose you wonder about the difference between "may" and "can".
> I would suggest that "may" seems more formal, more polite, and more appropriate for strangers, or for situations where you don't know whether permission will be granted.
> "Can" seems more informal, for use with a friend, especially if you know that permission will be granted.



I was taught in school that " can'' talks about your ability while " may" is used for asking permission.

Can I come in madam? It means you are asking the madam whether you are physically capable of entering the room or not.


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## JulianStuart

These may be helpful  

Forum discussions with the word(s) "May can ask" in the title:

Can/May I ask you a question?
May I ask you how I can help you?
May/Can I ask your name?


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## Lun-14

rituparnahoymoy said:


> I was taught in school that " can'' talks about your ability while " may" is used for asking permission.
> 
> Can I come in madam? It means you are asking the madam whether you are physically capable of entering the room or not.


That is _exactly_ what I was taught in school too, and I wonder whether this "rule" is correct or not.


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## rituparnahoymoy

Lun-14 said:


> That is _exactly_ what I was taught in school too, and I wonder whether this "rule" is correct or not.



We Indians are taught the same thing. That's why we are here together.


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## entangledbank

No, it isn't, basically. Native speakers almost always use 'can' for permission.


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## Lun-14

entangledbank said:


> No, it isn't, basically. Native speakers almost always use 'can' for permission.


Thanks so much for letting us know that this rule is not correct. Would you please guide us in which situations we should use "can" and in which situations we should use "may" for permission? (Actually I teach my students modern idiomatic BrE, so I want to hear from a BrE speaker) Also, would you please be so kind to have a look at my examples above too and help us decide which we should use - *can* or *may*?
We are so much obliged for the kind help you'll give us.


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## Barque

Lun-14 said:


> Thanks so much for letting us know that this rule is not correct.


It's not that it's not correct - what you refer to _are _the literal meanings of "can" and "may". It's just that in actual use/speech, "can" can be and is often substituted for "may".


Lun-14 said:


> Also, would you please be so kind to have a look at my examples above too and help us decide which we should use - *can* or *may*?


I know your question was addressed to entangledbank but, in case you missed them, I want to point out that Cenzontle has given you a good answer in #2, and that Julian Stuart has given you a couple of threads in #4 that also answer your question.


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## Keith Bradford

Lun-14 said:


> That is _exactly_ what I was taught in school too, and I wonder whether this "rule" is correct or not.


Of course the rule is correct, for a certain value of "correct".  But people don't always follow rules, and the new path, if more trodden, takes over from the old.  Different people do this at different speeds, and the rule changes (not to mention those who never learnt the rule in the first place). Grammar "rules" are just descriptions of what most educated people say.

About forty years ago I often used to phone the Commission for Racial Equality and my conversation with the switchboard operator would go:

Me: *Can *I speak to Jaginder Singh, please?
She: Of course you *may*.

Both she (in the Westindies) and I (in England) had learnt to ask "May I..."  However, I'd forgotten the rule -- or put in other words I'd subconsciously decided to copy people around me and simplify my life by using "can".  She, being more punctilious than me, had retained the earlier version.

Whichever you do, nobody will arrest you for it!


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## Sparky Malarky

You understand the rules correctly.  We native speakers also understand them.  We just ignore them most of the time.


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## Lun-14

Keith Bradford said:


> Of course the rule is correct, for a certain value of "correct".  But people don't always follow rules, and the new path, if more trodden, takes over from the old.  Different people do this at different speeds, and the rule changes (not to mention those who never learnt the rule in the first place). Grammar "rules" are just descriptions of what most educated people say.
> 
> About forty years ago I often used to phone the Commission for Racial Equality and my conversation with the switchboard operator would go:
> 
> Me: *Can *I speak to Jaginder Singh, please?
> She: Of course you *may*.
> 
> Both she (in the Westindies) and I (in England) had learnt to ask "May I..."  However, I'd forgotten the rule -- or put in other words I'd subconsciously decided to copy people around me and simplify my life by using "can".  She, being more punctilious than me, had retained the earlier version.
> 
> Whichever you do, nobody will arrest you for it!


Thanks so much, 
I'm confused by entangledbank's comment (#7): he said the rule isn't correct. I'm not sure what he had in mind. Perhaps he'll come back and explain.


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## Hermione Golightly

I'd like to suggest using 'could I' instead of 'can I', if more formality is needed. 'Could I ' is often used for polite requests and offers.
I never use 'may I', because it's too deferential or perhaps because I don't have to ask anybody's_ permission to do something._


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## PaulQ

For me, the following is general guidance. If you are looking for a rule that you can teach, you are on a wild-goose chase. The best you can do is to teach your students to understand general principles and then use their own judgment:

In the nuances of the use in the interrogative in the first and third person, *may *tends towards the subservience of the speaker1. *Can *tends towards ability regardless of whether the action is allowed or not.

Subservience<-............................................Neutral............................................->Ability
.....................*May*<--------------------------->
............................................<------------------------------------------------------->*Can
*
In the second person, *may *expresses the same degree of *superiority *of the speaker.

It is important to realise that
(i) *Can *is capable of meaning "can I have permission", hence the possibility of using *can *for a request.

(ii) *May *is capable of expressing the imperative:_ Policeman: "May I see your driving licence, Sir?"_ (A policeman has the legal power to see anyone's driving licence - he does not require permission, so this is a "polite" imperative. (It is not really polite - it is close to irony.))

In the nuances of the use in positive statements, *may *expresses a degree of improbability; *can *tends towards certainty.

Improbability<-............................................Neutral............................................->Certainty
.....................*May*<----------------------->
............................................<------------------------------------------------------->*Can*



Hermione Golightly said:


> I'd like to suggest using 'could I' instead of 'can I', if more formality is needed. 'Could I ' is often used for polite requests and offers.
> I never use 'may I', because it's too deferential or perhaps because I don't have to ask anybody's_ permission to do something._




1(i) In modern Western society, subservience is not an admired attribute, and therefore "may" is declining in use for expressing a request for permission.


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## Lun-14

Keith Bradford said:


> Of course the rule is correct, for a certain value of "correct".  But people don't always follow rules, and the new path, if more trodden, takes over from the old.  Different people do this at different speeds, and the rule changes (not to mention those who never learnt the rule in the first place). Grammar "rules" are just descriptions of what most educated people say.
> 
> About forty years ago I often used to phone the Commission for Racial Equality and my conversation with the switchboard operator would go:
> 
> Me: *Can *I speak to Jaginder Singh, please?
> She: Of course you *may*.
> 
> Both she (in the Westindies) and I (in England) had learnt to ask "May I..."  However, I'd forgotten the rule -- or put in other words I'd subconsciously decided to copy people around me and simplify my life by using "can".  She, being more punctilious than me, had retained the earlier version.
> 
> Whichever you do, nobody will arrest you for it!


Hi, Keith.
I'm a teacher. My students' age group is 9-15. I have taught my students that when you ask for my (or any other teacher's) permission, you should use "May", _not_ "Can".
E.g.
If my student asks me: *Can* I go and drink some water? (when they're feeling thirsty during the lecture), I correct them by saying that they should say "*May* I go and drink some water?
Similarly, if a student asks for my permission to answer the question that I ask, he/she says: *Can* I answer, ma'am?, I correct them and advise they should say, "*May* I answer, ma'am?"


I forbids them to use "can" because "can" shows _ability_ (Obviously they have legs; they can go outside to drink water. Obviously they have tongue to speak; they can answer my question).

My question to you is: if my students use "can" for permission instead of "may", would it be alright? Some people have advised me that though "can" is OK but your students must use "may" because "may" is more polite. Also "may" is formal, so it is best suited in a formal type of environment, like school, college, university etc.


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## Thomas Tompion

Lun-14 said:


> [...]
> My question to you is: if my students use "can" for permission instead of "may", would it be alright? Some people have advised me that though "can" is OK but your students must use "may" because "may" is more polite. Also "may" is formal, so it is best suited in a formal type of environment, like school, college, university etc.


A lot depends on what you mean by "all right".

You've been told that many natives say 'can' under such circumstances.  I couldn't call it unidiomatic.


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## Lun-14

Thomas Tompion said:


> A lot depends on what you mean by "all right".
> 
> You've been told that many natives say 'can' under such circumstances.  I couldn't call it unidiomatic.


I wanted to know if the usage of "can" for permission is _equally_ *natural* in BrE as the usage of "may" is in the situation that I've described in #15 (A student's asking for their teacher's permission permission in a school/college/university).


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## MarcB

Hello Lun,
Reading other people's comments as well as my own experience I can tell you this. I was also taught the rule that may is for permission and can is for ability. In reality most native speakers will use can rather than may. My guidance for you would be to tell students the rule and then tell them what they can expect to hear most of the time. Languages have different registers certain words phrases and vocabulary are appropriate in some situations and not in others. Therefore, we have formal, informal, casual, colloquial and slang there is no clear demarcation for each category. Some ways of speaking are not advisable not only because of register but because the perception of speakers is negative. In this particular case can is favored by most speakers and is acceptable in all but the most formal of registers.


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## Thomas Tompion

Lun-14 said:


> I wanted to know if the usage of "can" for permission is _equally_ *natural* in BrE as the usage of "may" is in the situation that I've described in #15 (A student's asking for their teacher's permission permission in a school/college/university).


I'd say it's not equally natural but more natural.

MarcB gives you good advice, Lun.


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## Edinburgher

Lun-14 said:


> I *forbid* {not _forbids_} them to use "can" because "can" shows _ability_


That is really too strong.  You should not forbid it, but explain to them that "may" is more formally correct, but that "can" is nowadays quite acceptable, particularly when spoken (as opposed to in writing).
See the usage notes in can - WordReference.com Dictionary of English

A generation or two ago, teachers always used to correct their pupils on this, and insist that "may" should be used and "can" should not.  That battle is pretty well lost now.
I hope they hold out on "Me and my friend" vs "My friend and I", though!


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## Lun-14

Edinburgher said:


> That is really too strong.  You should not forbid it, but explain to them that "may" is more formally correct, but that "can" is nowadays quite acceptable, particularly when spoken (as opposed to in writing).
> See the usage notes in can - WordReference.com Dictionary of English
> 
> A generation or two ago, teachers always used to correct their pupils on this, and insist that "may" should be used and "can" should not.  That battle is pretty well lost now.
> I hope they hold out on "Me and my friend" vs "My friend and I", though!


Thanks, EdinB.
What would you comment in this:



> Some people have advised me that though "can" is OK for permission but your students must use "may" because "may" is more polite (Also it shows respect. As a student talks respectfully to their teacher, so "may" should be used, not "can"). Also "may" is formal, so it is best suited in a formal type of environment, like school, college, university etc.


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## Edinburgher

Lun-14 said:


> What would you comment in this:


That's more of a cultural than a language issue.  Here in the decadent western world, we don't view the school environment as particularly formal.  We do not think of teachers as god-like.


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## Lun-14

Edinburgher said:


> That's more of a cultural than a language issue.  Here in the decadent western world, we don't view the school environment as particularly formal. We do not think of teachers as god-like.


Thanks much, Edinburgher.
So could you please explain in which situations "can" is being used for permission and in which situations "may" is being used for permission currently in BrE?
Which one of them is *polite*? Which one is used in *formal* situations and which one is used in *informal* situations? Which one of them carries *respect* towards the listener (i.e. the person who's being addressed)? As I've told you that I recommend my students use "may" because it's polite and carries respect towards the person who's being addressed, i.e. a teacher.

Please explain your answer as per modern BrE usage.
Thanks so much for the explanation you give.


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## RM1(SS)

Lun-14 said:


> Which one of them is *polite*? Which one is used in *formal* situations and which one is used in *informal* situations? Which one of them carries *respect* towards the listener (i.e. the person who's being addressed)?


See posts 2, 4, 13, and 14.


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## Thomas Tompion

Edinburgher said:


> A generation or two ago, teachers always used to correct their pupils on this, and insist that "may" should be used and "can" should not. That battle is pretty well lost now.
> I hope they hold out on "Me and my friend" vs "My friend and I", though!


I'm afraid I couldn't agree with this.

'Can' for 'may' was frequently used when asking for permission in schools in the 1950's and only the fussiest teachers felt there was anything to correct.


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## lingobingo

Lun-14 said:


> I have taught my students that when you ask for my (or any other teacher's) permission, you should use "May", _not_ "Can".


Fine. Tell them you recommend that, but don't make it prescriptive. If you do, you will be misleading them. They could end up with the impression that they _always_ have to differentiate between permission and ability when framing a question using one of those words. Or, even worse, that they should _always_ use *may* rather than *can* when the two words are interchangeable. 


Lun-14 said:


> My question to you is: if my students use "can" for permission instead of "may", would it be alright?


Yes. This is what Oxford has to say on the subject:
_*The 'permission' use of can is not in fact incorrect in standard English.* The only difference between the two verbs is that one is more polite than the other. In informal contexts it’s perfectly acceptable to use can; in formal situations it would be better to use may.
_
Personally, I don't entirely agree with the rest of that statement, though. _Sometimes_ *may* does sound a little more polite than *can*, but that's about as far as it goes. And, as usual, there are differences between BE and AE. For example, in the US I believe that a standard phrase when answering a business phone is "How *may* I help you?" — no doubt because this is considered more polite than "How *can* I help you?". But to my British ears, that really jars. It sounds false, forced. If I were in charge, my instinct would be to encourage my staff to say "How can I be of help?". This not only has a friendly ring to it, but (going back to the permission v. ability debate) you could even say that it's more "correct" than using *may.*


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## Lun-14

Thanks.


lingobingo said:


> you could even say that it's more "correct" than using *may.*


May I please ask why you're saying _can_ is more "correct" than _may_ when asking for permission?


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## heypresto

Re-read post #29. 'Can' is more correct than 'may' in 'How can I be of help?'


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## lingobingo

Lun-14 said:


> May I please ask why you're saying _can_ is more "correct" than _may_ when asking for permission?


Please don't put words into my mouth.

My point was that IF you believe that *can* is appropriate to ability and *may* to permission, then "How can I be of help" *could be said* to be better grammatically than "How may I help you?" — since this question is about possibility. It implies _in what way can I help?_ rather than _will you allow me to help?_


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## Lun-14

heypresto said:


> Re-read post #29. 'Can' is more correct than 'may' in 'How can I be of help?'





lingobingo said:


> Please don't put words into my mouth.
> 
> My point was that IF you believe that *can* is appropriate to ability and *may* to permission, then "How can I be of help" *could be said* to be better grammatically than "How may I help you?" — since this question is about possibility. It implies _in what way can I help?_ rather than _will you allow me to help?_


Thanks so much. I see it now.
But my real concern in this thread is that in *modern BrE*, when we ask for someone's permission using _may_ or _can_ with "I" (_Can I_ or _May I_), which one is polite; which one shows respect towards the listener (i.e. the person being addressed) and which one is used in formal situations?
Can you please clear this up?


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## lingobingo

Yes I can. IT DOESN'T MATTER which one you use!!


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## Barque

Lun-14 said:


> which one is polite;


Both.


Lun-14 said:


> which one shows respect towards the listener


Both.


Lun-14 said:


> which one is used in formal situations?


As suggested twice earlier, please see posts 2 and 4. Also 13 and 20.

Repeating your questions after you've received multiple answers isn't particularly polite. It means you haven't read the answers you've got.


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## Lun-14

Barque said:


> Repeating your questions after you've received multiple answers isn't particularly polite. It means you haven't read the answers you've got.


I'm sorry, I was confused because there's difference in usage between AE and BE.

If, as you say, they both are polite, then why  is the use of _can_ for permission more common than _may_ in BrE?


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## Barque

Lun-14 said:


> If, as you say, they both are polite, then why is the use of _can_ for permission more common than _may_ in BrE?


I doubt you'll ever find an instance of two words being used with exactly the same frequency. Perhaps people prefer the less formal word.


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## lingobingo

Lun-14 said:


> If, as you say, they both are polite, then why  is the use of _can_ for permission more common than _may_ in BrE?



The traditional answer to questions like that is: How long is a piece of string?


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## Lun-14

Thomas Tompion said:


> 'Can' for 'may' was frequently used when asking for permission in schools in the 1950's


Is "can" still used in the UK when asking for permission in schools?


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## heypresto

Yes. You missed out part of Thomas Tompion's comment: " . . . and only the fussiest teachers felt there was anything to correct." The implication being that even in the 50s 'can' was acceptable to most.

Re-read posts 19, 22, 29, and 34.


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## Lun-14

heypresto said:


> Yes. You missed out part of Thomas Tompion's comment: " . . . and only the fussiest teachers felt there was anything to correct." The implication being that even in the 50s 'can' was acceptable to most.
> 
> Re-read posts 19, 22, 29, and 34.


Thanks so much.
Just one question: why is "may" not common in modern BrE when asking for permission in schools?


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## Hermione Golightly

Why should it be? Do you want schools to talk differently from the rest of the population?
I can back up what TT said, referring to schools 60 years ago, and I went to one of the best girls' schools in England.
But here's a tip : 'could' can be used for making requests and is slightly more deferential. It certainly isn't necessary though.
Keep it simple.


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## heypresto

Lun-14 said:


> Thanks so much.
> Just one question: why is "may" not common in modern BrE when asking for permission in schools?



The only answers to 'Why?' is 'Because it isn't' and 'Because 'can' is more common.' You'll just have to accept it.

Or you could take up Hermione's suggestion of saying 'Could I . . . ?'


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## MarcB

I am not going to repeat my previous post. Now I am asking all native speakers regardless of country is this clear and appropriate for all English speaking countries.

 In this particular case can is favored by most speakers and is acceptable in all but the most formal of registers.


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## Hermione Golightly

> In this particular case can is favored by most speakers and is acceptable in all but the most formal of registers.



(And I simply can't imagine where I would encounter so formal a register.)


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## MarcB

possibly when talking to the Queen.


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## heypresto

When you need to visit the throne room.


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## Hermione Golightly

> possibly when talking to the Queen.





> When you need to visit the throne room.





See what I mean? I love it. "Please, Madge, may I be excused? I've been waiting here several hours and I urgently need a pee."


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## Lun-14

Keith Bradford said:


> Of course the rule is correct, *for a certain value of "correct".*





entangledbank said:


> *No, it isn't, basically. *Native speakers almost always use 'can' for permission.


I'm not sure what you both mean by your bold. Sparky, Barque, MarcB said the rule is correct. But you both seem to have problem with the rule.
Could someone please explain what Keith and Entangled meant by their bold?

Also, if the rule is really correct, then why do native speakers go for "can" for permission and say it's natural to use "can" for permission? 
If the rule is correct/default, then why is the use of "can" natural?
The default thing should be natural, not the other thing that most people adopt.


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## Barque

Lun-14 said:


> Sparky, Barque, MarcB said the rule is correct.


When you talk about what someone said, please make sure you get it right. You make it sound as if I said it's a rule that should be followed. I didn't. I said it's not incorrect; there's a difference.

This is what Sparky and MarcB also said:


Sparky Malarky said:


> We just ignore them most of the time.


By "them" she means the rules.


MarcB said:


> In reality most native speakers will use can rather than may.






Lun-14 said:


> If the rule is correct/default, then why is the use of "can" natural?


This "rule" is _not_ the "default".

You might want to go back and read the thread again, because you seem to have misunderstood most of the answers you've got. Try reading the posts in full, without skimming over them.


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## Keith Bradford

What I meant by my bold is that you need, Lun, to forget the idea that God has sent down from on high a Correct Version of English Grammar.  "Correct" means whatever the grammar-book writer wants it to mean.

When writing for very small children or for foreign learners, some grammarians still insist on the hard distinction between _may _and _can_.  It seems you may have learnt English from such a teacher or such a book.  Most native English speakers no longer follow this distinction nowadays.  So it is no longer "correct" for those other grammarians who take modern educated usage as their yardstick.


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## Lun-14

Keith Bradford said:


> What I meant by my bold is that you need, Lun, to forget the idea that God has sent down from on high a Correct Version of English Grammar.  "Correct" means whatever the grammar-book writer wants it to mean.
> 
> When writing for very small children or for foreign learners, some grammarians still insist on the hard distinction between _may _and _can_.  It seems you may have learnt English from such a teacher or such a book.  Most native English speakers no longer follow this distinction nowadays.  So it is no longer "correct" for those other grammarians who take modern educated usage as their yardstick.


So can I simply say:
The rule (can -> ability, may -> permission) is old-fashioned now in BrE. The rule in modern BrE is that always use "can" for both ability and permission.


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## Keith Bradford

No, you can say the _*practice *_in modern BrE is that you *may *use "can" for both ability and permission.


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## tittiugo

Hermione Golightly said:


> I'd like to suggest using 'could I' instead of 'can I', if more formality is needed. 'Could I ' is often used for polite requests and offers.
> I never use 'may I', because it's too deferential or perhaps because I don't have to ask anybody's_ permission to do something._


Hello all of you,

what about 'Might I'?


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## Lun-14

Keith Bradford said:


> No, you can say the _*practice *_in modern BrE is that you *may *use "can" for both ability and permission.


Thank you. Can you do me one more favor by explaining why TT (#19) said the use of "can" for permission is natural?


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## Hermione Golightly

That's an even more deferential form of 'may' and sounds ridiculous these days, to my mind. It's very likely to be used sarcastically.
Let's say a student is texting in class. They are so engrossed that they don't at first notice the teacher has come up to them. The teacher might say "Might I interrupt you for a moment?"


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## Hermione Golightly

> Can you do me one more favor by explaining why TT (#19) said the use of "can" for permission is natural?


'Natural' means the natural way we speak and use the language these days.


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## cando

Attempting to summarise a long and somewhat fractious thread: The problem for many non-native speakers is that English is notoriously fuzzy and flexible. Native speakers don't learn and use the language according to a set of rules, but on instincts about what feels expressive and helps communication. And those instincts vary according to geography, culture, social setting and also change over time.

The OP is a primary school teacher and children do generally prefer to have a yes/no answer to things. Unfortunately for them and their teachers they have to learn that the world, and especially the English language, doesn't always work like that. The verb "may" originally carried a meaning of permission and "can" originally indicated ability, but in modern usage we have blurred those boundaries considerably. This is perfectly acceptable and correct use of modern English. At the same time, those who insist on the original meanings cannot be criticised as incorrect, but generally sound old fashioned, posh or risk being perceived as unnecessarily pedantic.

BrE speakers mostly use "can" these days when routinely asking for permission and feel more comfortable doing so. But this is not a rigid rule. AE speakers sometimes muddy the waters in the opposite direction and use "may" when asking about the possibility of helping someone  (How may I help you? = How am I capable of helping you?), perhaps because there is some perception that "may" sounds more refined and polite. Both may and can are still in use with their original meanings at times, but they have blended and blurred so as to become interchangeable in practice. So in summary, you can use either: "can" is very common and perfectly acceptable in BrE, and "may" is certainly not wrong although it might sound a bit formal.


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## tittiugo

Hermione Golightly said:


> That's an even more deferential form of 'may' and sounds ridiculous these days, to my mind. It's very likely to be used sarcastically.
> Let's say a student is texting in class. They are so engrossed that they don't at first notice the teacher has come up to them. The teacher might say "Might I interrupt you for a moment?"




ok Hermione, thanks...but what about your use of 'Might' here:

"...The teacher* might* say "Might I interrupt you for a moment?" ...Do you refer to the interrogative sentences only?


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## Hermione Golightly

That use of might has nothing to do with asking permission which is the topic of this thread.


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## tittiugo

ok....in fact I added my question about your reference to the interrogative sentences after posting '...about your use of might here'

thank you' I got it.


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## Lun-14

Keith Bradford said:


> No, you can say the _*practice *_in modern BrE is that you *may *use "can" for both ability and permission.


Your red "may" tells me that in modern BrE, "can" is being used for asking for permission and "may" is being used for giving permission. (As you've given me permission to use "can" for both ability and permission by using _may_ and boldfacing it.)
Right?


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## Keith Bradford

Right.


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## Barque

Lun-14 said:


> (As you've given me permission to use "can" for both ability and permission by using _may_ and boldfacing it.)



You may use... = _It's acceptable to use.../The language allows you to use..._


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## Lun-14

Keith Bradford said:


> No, you can say the _*practice *_in modern BrE is that you *may *use "can" for both ability and permission.


Thank you. The following is the guidance that Cenzontle gave me in #2. I want to ask if modern BrE is following it. I think it isn't. Am I right?




> I would suggest that "may" seems more formal, more polite, and more appropriate for strangers, or for situations where you don't know whether permission will be granted.
> "Can" seems more informal, for use with a friend, especially if you know that permission will be granted.


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## Lun-14

Barque said:


> You may use... = _It's acceptable to use.../The language allows you to use..._


I hope you agree with #60.


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## Barque

I was commenting on your interpretation of "you may use" in #59.


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## RM1(SS)

Lun-14 said:


> The rule in modern BrE is that always use "can" for both ability and permission.


Posts 31 and 41. (And probably others....)


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## Lun-14

RM1(SS) said:


> Posts 31 and 41. (And probably others....)


I've seen the posts, but not sure what point you're referring to. Could you please clarify using your own words?


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## PaulQ

Lun-14 said:


> Thank you. The following is the guidance that Cenzontle gave me in #2. I want to ask if modern BrE is following it. I think it isn't. Am I right?


Yes. Both are _capable _of introducing a request of some sort. However, I feel you are trying to discover something a little more definite as regards usage:


Lun-14 said:


> I want to ask if modern BrE is following it. I think it isn't. Am I right?



Subservience/formality<-............................................Neutral............................................->Ability
...........................*May*<----------------->
.................................................<------------------------------------------------------------->*Can
*
The above should give you an idea of the nuance-range of the permissive *can* and *may*, and demonstrate the vestigial overlap. Over the years "*can*" has extended to include a type of subservience/formailty, and '*may*' has retreated in use away from neutral and is reserved for a greater degree of subservience/formality.

You use "may" to sound subservient (in its broadest sense) and otherwise, you use "can".

If, even after 65 posts, you are looking for a rule, a formula, or a definitive answer to your original question, you are going to be disappointed. The use of *may *is a matter for the confidence of the speaker and the speaker's perception of the comparative status of the listener - everyone will have a different perception and a different level of confidence.
*
Can *is far more popular than *may*; this is seen in the Google Ngram viewer: *can I have, may I have*. <- click the link.


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## RM1(SS)

RM1(SS) said:


> Posts 31 and 41. (And probably others....)





Lun-14 said:


> I've seen the posts, but not sure what point you're referring to. Could you please clarify using your own words?


The blue parts:


lingobingo said:


> Yes I can. IT DOESN'T MATTER which one you use!!





MarcB said:


> In this particular case can is favored by most speakers and is acceptable in all but the most formal of registers.


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## Lun-14

RM1(SS) said:


> The blue parts


What does this mean:



> all but the most formal of registers.


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## PaulQ

Entry #13: register - WordReference.com Dictionary of English


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## Lun-14

PaulQ said:


> Entry #13: register - WordReference.com Dictionary of English


What I understand from this Marc's comment is that 'can' is used in formal situations when asking for permission.


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## RM1(SS)

No.  

"In all but the most formal registers." = "In all [registers] except the most formal registers"


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## Lun-14

RM1(SS) said:


> No.
> 
> "In all but the most formal registers." = "In all [registers] except the most formal registers"


You mean to say that in modern BrE 'can' is being used in informal situations, while 'may' is being used only in formal situations?


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## PaulQ

Lun-14 said:


> You mean to say that in modern BrE 'can' is being used in informal situations, while 'may' is being used only in formal situations?


No. Let's make it simple. I suggest you accept this guidance: 

"*Can* *is* used in modern BE in informal *all* situations *except the most formal situations*. In the most formal situations  'may' is  used."


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## Lun-14

PaulQ said:


> No. Let's make it simple. I suggest you accept this guidance:
> 
> "*Can* *is* used in modern BE in informal *all* situations *except the most formal situations*. In the most formal situations  'may' is  used."


I said almost the same in #73.


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## heypresto

Only in _the most formal _of situations.

What will it take to convince you that we use 'can' in all other situations, and that it is perfectly fine, and perfectly natural, to do so?



Cross-posted.


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## Lun-14

heypresto said:


> may...->Only in _the most formal _of situations.





heypresto said:


> we use 'can' in all other situations,


If you give _just_ one example of both 'can' and 'may' being used in "all other situations" and "most formal of situations" respectively, I'll be satisfied.


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## PaulQ

Lun-14 said:


> I said almost the same in #73.


Then why are you still asking?


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## heypresto

Lun-14 said:


> If you give _just_ one example of both 'can' and 'may' being used in "all other situations" and "most formal of situations" respectively, I'll be satisfied.



Anybody anywhere anytime: _Can I smoke in here?_
Anybody anywhere anytime: _No.
_
Anybody at the Palace: _May I smoke in here, Your Majesty?_
The Queen of England: _No. It upsets the corgis.

_
Can we put this thread to bed now?


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## Lun-14

PaulQ said:


> Then why are you still asking?


I'm asking because the following rule is still causing me headache.

*[Can -> ability, May -> permission]*
Example:
*Can* I go outside? -> *Am I able to *go outside? -> Yes, of course you can - you have legs; you _definitely_ can go outside. 'Can' doesn't show permission; it only shows the ability to do something.
*May* I go outside? -> *Am I allowed to* go outside? -> Yes, you *may* go -> You are *allowed to* go. 'May' shows asking for permission, not ability. It is used when a person is asking for someone's permission to do something.

(So the both sentences above using 'can' and 'may' have entirely different meaning - They are not interchangeable.)

Though now I understand that the modern BrE don't follow this rule and uses 'can' for permission too, but I want to know if the above rule (that I've explained with example) is correct in English. Can it be followed? If my students follow this rule, wouldn't it be a crime?

Would you please put your final comments on this rule to clear me up on this? (Please use simple/understandable vocabulary while answering...)


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## PaulQ

<sigh> Lun-14... I have this plan... simply use "*can*" all the time and never use "*may*" - If anyone seems offended, refer them to this thread.


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## Lun-14

PaulQ said:


> <sigh> Lun-14... I have this plan... simply use "*can*" all the time and never use "*may*" - If anyone seems offended, refer them to this thread.


I _do_ believe what you're saying as regards the current usage, but can't you comment on:


> but I want to know if the above rule (that I've explained with example) is correct in English. Can it be followed? If my students follow this rule, wouldn't it be a crime?


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## PaulQ

> but I want to know if the above rule (that I've explained with example) is correct in English.


And this is the reason why my signature says there are no "rules" - English is a mature language and allows a lot of discretion to the speaker and writer.


> Can it be followed?


By "it" do you mean my guidance (which should be followed) or your erroneous belief that there is a distinction in the meaning between can and may when asking for permission (which should be discarded)?


> If my students follow this rule, wouldn't it be a crime?


I have written to Mr Mamnoon Hussain, and he has graciously replied that, in the case of you and your students, he solemnly undertakes to use his constitutional powers to grant a pardon each time "can" is used for permission.


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## Lun-14

PaulQ said:


> By "it" do you mean my guidance (which should be followed) or your erroneous belief that there is a distinction in the meaning between can and may when asking for permission (which should be discarded)?


By "it" I mean this rule:


> *[Can -> ability, May -> permission]*
> Example:
> *Can* I go outside? -> *Am I able to *go outside? -> Yes, of course you can - you have legs; you _definitely_ can go outside. 'Can' doesn't show permission; it only shows the ability to do something.
> *May* I go outside? -> *Am I allowed to* go outside? -> Yes, you *may* go -> You are *allowed to* go. 'May' shows asking for permission, not ability. It is used when a person is asking for someone's permission to do something.
> The main point that this rule tells is that "can" *cannot* be used for asking for permission. Why? Because it *only* shows ability, as the example indicates.


I'm not sure why you're calling this rule "erroneous". I do admit that it's not being followed by BrE nowadays, but how is it "erroneous"?



PaulQ said:


> I have written to Mr Mamnoon Hussain, and he has graciously replied that, in the case of you and your students, he solemnly undertakes to use his constitutional powers to grant a pardon each time "can" is used for permission.



I live in India, _not_ in Pakistan.


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## PaulQ

Lun-14 said:


> 'Can' doesn't show permission; it only shows the ability to do something.





Lun-14 said:


> I'm not sure why you're calling this rule "erroneous".


Because the majority of posts so far have contradicted "'Can' doesn't show permission; it only shows the ability to do something."


Lun-14 said:


> I live in India, _not_ in Pakistan.


Which probably accounts for the PS at the end of the email that says "I will pass this on to Shri Ram Nath Kovind."


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## Lun-14

PaulQ said:


> Because the majority of posts so far have contradicted "'Can' doesn't show permission; it only shows the ability to do something."


I'm sure you've read the rule that I've quoted in #84 _carefully_...
How would you name this rule?
_*False rule*_ (that people of India and Pakistan made up themselves.)
*Old-fashioned rule* (that was followed in the past in English-speaking countries, but not now.)


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## PaulQ

I suspect that it is an apocryphal rule. It was a rule that was used solely to allow pupils to pass exams by reciting what they had been taught, regardless of what their, and other's, experience in real life had been.


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## MarcB

Hello Lun, as many people have stated before and not only in British English but in all varieties of English the rule  is antiquated or outdated. It was taught even to native English speakers many decades ago which indicates that even then it was outdated. As I stated before you can tell your students the rule and then tell them it is no longer applicable.  That is not to say that it is wrong only that it reflects another period in time.


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## Lun-14

MarcB said:


> Hello Lun, as many people have stated before and not only in British English but in all varieties of English the rule  is antiquated or outdated. It was taught even to native English speakers many decades ago which indicates that even then it was outdated. As I stated before you can tell your students the rule and then tell them it is no longer applicable.  That is not to say that it is wrong only that it reflects another period in time.


Actually, Marc, that traditional rule is half-correct. The rule, keeping in view the modern practice, must be:
*Can* -> refers to both ability and permission.
*May* -> refers only to permission, not ability.


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## Hermione Golightly

This is about all important 'usage' not 'rules'. There are no rules, just attempts to describe how people are using language and to make it simpler to learn.


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