# Malayalam: Malayalam Old Script and Pronunciation



## lachesisdecima

Hi. 

I understand that the Malayalam script went through a change in the 1970s which simplified the way the vowel signs are written for "ഉ" and "ഊ". However, I have seen some of the ways the letters were written before this change. Where can I find the whole set? I have only managed to find it for a select few letters. I think it might be faster to write it with the old style vowel signs. 

Since I am on the topic of the Malayalam script, I would like to clarify how the way the conjunct, റ്റ, is pronounced. I always thought it would be pronounced in the same way as the Tamil, ற்ற. However, I see റ്റ being used where the English letter "t" would be. So, what is the pronunciation of that particular conjunct?


----------



## Dib

I think, I know the answer to the second part of your question, though I have to admit that my knowledge is quite sketchy here. So, hopefully someone else will throw more light on it. It seems ற/റ originally stood for the alveolar t (like the English one), and consequently ற்ற/റ്റ for alveolar tt. So, Old Tamil seems to have a contrast among 3 t's - த (dental), ற (alveolar), ட (retroflex). It also had a parallel 3-way contrast in n, which is still retained by Malayalam, though the Malayalam script does not normally distinguish between the dental and alveolar n, while modern Tamil script does (ந/ன), but pronunciation doesn't. In both Tamil and Malayalam, the intervocalic ற/റ has become rhotacized in the meanwhile, but Malayalam seems to have retained the original alveolar tt pronunciation of റ്റ, while Tamil has partially rhotacized it into a kind of "tr". So, long story short, Malayalam റ്റ stands for alveolar "tt".

I have no idea about the first part of your question.


----------



## lachesisdecima

I am so glad you answered this question for me. I was waiting for an answer for the longest time. Thanks a lot, Dib. This answers my question perfectly.  

The first part might be a long shot to get. The old ways of writing have been out of fashion for 40 years.


----------



## Kannan91

Dib said:


> I think, I know the answer to the second part of your question, though I have to admit that my knowledge is quite sketchy here. So, hopefully someone else will throw more light on it. It seems ற/റ originally stood for the alveolar t (like the English one), and consequently ற்ற/റ്റ for alveolar tt. So, Old Tamil seems to have a contrast among 3 t's - த (dental), ற (alveolar), ட (retroflex). It also had a parallel 3-way contrast in n, which is still retained by Malayalam, though the Malayalam script does not normally distinguish between the dental and alveolar n, while modern Tamil script does (ந/ன), but pronunciation doesn't. In both Tamil and Malayalam, the intervocalic ற/റ has become rhotacized in the meanwhile, but Malayalam seems to have retained the original alveolar tt pronunciation of റ്റ, while Tamil has partially rhotacized it into a kind of "tr". So, long story short, Malayalam റ്റ stands for alveolar "tt".



You're right, but let me just add something about the allophones. According to Bhadriraju Krishnamurti (2003, p.53), the alveolar /t/ would have been realized as a rhotic intervocalically  (and as a voiced stop when following a nasal), even in Old Tamil, so I don't think it's a change that occurred "in the meanwhile". 

As a native speaker of Malayalam, I can attest that this still holds in natural Malayalam speech - റ is a rhotic intervocalically (for example, പാറ 'rock') a voiced stop in words such as എന്റെ 'my' in which it is preceded by a nasal, and a voiceless stop only in gemination, as in പാറ്റ 'cockroach'.  I refer to 'natural' speech because the voicing might not occur in some people's careful or bookish pronunciation.  The rhotic റ is also found word-initially in some loanwords such as റാണി 'queen'.

Reference:
Krishnamurti, Bh, 2003. _The Dravidian Languages_. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.


----------



## lachesisdecima

Hey Kannan,

Thanks so much for explaining this further. A couple of doubts I would like to clear up with you.


Kannan91 said:


> As a native speaker of Malayalam, I can attest that this still holds in natural Malayalam speech - റ is a rhotic intervocalically (for example, പാറ 'rock')



Therefore, intervocalically, the pronounciation of റ would be the same as the Tamil ற then?


Kannan91 said:


> I can attest that this still holds in natural Malayalam speech - റ is a rhotic intervocalically (for example, പാറ 'rock') a voiced stop in words such as എന്റെ 'my' in which it is preceded by a nasal



So, in this case, റ would be pronounced as the ற in the Tamil word சென்ற (not sure if you can read Tamil script, but this sounds like chendra, the ற being the dra sound. Run it through Google translate, you may get the idea)?


Kannan91 said:


> a voiceless stop only in gemination, as in പാറ്റ 'cockroach'



And here, it would be the English alveolar "t" sound, then? Therefore, പാറ്റ will end up sounding like paatta?


Kannan91 said:


> The rhotic റ is also found word-initially in some loanwords such as റാണി 'queen'.



This is very, very interesting indeed. I assumed that റ can never be word initial. Certainly, the Tamil ற can never be word initial. I thought the same principle would apply for Malayalam owing to both our languages' similarity. So, is there any rule that states when ര should be used word initially and when റ should be used word initially? I saw രാണി in this one dictionary at this link: http://mashithantu.com/dictionary/രാണി .
So, how common is രാണി?

Thanks in advance for all answers, Kannan!


----------



## Kannan91

Hi,


lachesisdecima said:


> Therefore, intervocalically, the pronounciation of റ would be the same as the Tamil ற then?


Yes, pretty much. You have to remember that this rhotic version of റ is always pronounced distinctly from ര though - I don't think that's the case anymore with Tamil ற and ர.  The absence of such a distinction is actually one of the stereotypical signs of a Tamil accent in Malayalam!


> So, in this case, റ would be pronounced as the ற in the Tamil word சென்ற (not sure if you can read Tamil script, but this sounds like chendra, the ற being the dra sound. Run it through Google translate, you may get the idea)?


No, it would be just the 'd' part of that, like an English 'd'. This is the voiced alveolar plosive, whereas the English 't' is the voiceless alveolar plosive. So എന്റെ is basically pronounced like the English word "end" followed by the short 'e' vowel.


> And here, it would be the English alveolar "t" sound, then? Therefore, പാറ്റ will end up sounding like paatta?



Yes, like an English 't' but geminated (doubled).


> This is very, very interesting indeed. I assumed that റ can never be word initial. Certainly, the Tamil ற can never be word initial. I thought the same principle would apply for Malayalam owing to both our languages' similarity. So, is there any rule that states when ര should be used word initially and when റ should be used word initially? I saw രാണി in this one dictionary at this link: http://mashithantu.com/dictionary/രാണി .
> So, how common is രാണി?


As I said above, ര and rhotic റ are very distinct sounds in Malayalam. So when we hear a foreign word like "raani" (from Hindi, I think?), the "r" sounds closer to our റ than to our ര, therefore we use റാണി to approximate the original pronunciation . This is only found in a handful of loanwords (from languages other than Sanskrit, e.g. Hindi, English, Portuguese - _rosa_, റോസാപ്പൂ ), and never in any native words. I've never seen anyone write രാണി, and I've never heard it pronounced with a ര.
[EDIT: I don't know about that dictionary entry. Maybe it's some rare old-fashioned usage, but it just seems wrong to me, although I guess it would be the etymologically "correct" version]
However, the original Sanskrit "raajñi" _is_ written (and pronounced) with ര - രാജ്ഞി!


> Thanks in advance for all answers, Kannan!


You're welcome!


----------



## lachesisdecima

Thanks a lot Kannan for your explanations.


Kannan91 said:


> Yes, pretty much. You have to remember that this rhotic version of റ is always pronounced distinctly from ര though - I don't think that's the case anymore with Tamil ற and ர.


This might very well be the case. From what I have read, ற and റ are supposed to be an alveolar trill sound (in intervocalic positions in your case) as opposed to the alveolar tap of ர and ര. However, seeing as many of my own family members cannot perform an alveolar trill, this distinction probably has been lost in the vast majority of the Tamil population. Also the fact that by just hearing a word, you cannot figure out what "ra" it is supposed to be also attests to the fact that the distinction has been lost in Tamil.


Kannan91 said:


> No, it would be just the 'd' part of that, like an English 'd'. This is the voiced alveolar plosive, whereas the English 't' is the voiceless alveolar plosive. So എന്റെ is basically pronounced like the English word "end" followed by the short 'e' vowel.


Ah sorry for misinterpreting your statement earlier. This clears up the confusion really well. Thanks. This would explain all those sounds in Malayalam movies, hehe.


Kannan91 said:


> As I said above, ര and rhotic റ are very distinct sounds in Malayalam. So when we hear a foreign word like "raani" (from Hindi, I think?), the "r" sounds closer to our റ than to our ര, therefore we use റാണി to approximate the original pronunciation . This is only found in a handful of loanwords (from languages other than Sanskrit, e.g. Hindi, English, Portuguese - _rosa_, റോസാപ്പൂ ), and never in any native words. I've never seen anyone write രാണി, and I've never heard it pronounced with a ര.
> [EDIT: I don't know about that dictionary entry. Maybe it's some rare old-fashioned usage, but it just seems wrong to me, although I guess it would be the etymologically "correct" version]
> However, the original Sanskrit "raajñi" _is_ written (and pronounced) with ര - രാജ്ഞി!


So, the word initial റ will never occur in tatsamam Sanskrit words in Malayalam? They can only be found in select foreign word imports? That dictionary entry was the only one I found with the spelling രാണി, so it must be really really rare. Also, it was in one newspaper article, though my knowledge of Malayalam is not that great to understand what they were saying in മാതൃഭൂമി, so I am not sure what context it was used in. Probably I should watch more movies to learn more Malayalam. Lol.


lachesisdecima said:


> Hi.
> I understand that the Malayalam script went through a change in the 1970s which simplified the way the vowel signs are written for "ഉ" and "ഊ". However, I have seen some of the ways the letters were written before this change. Where can I find the whole set? I have only managed to find it for a select few letters. I think it might be faster to write it with the old style vowel signs.


By the way, this was something I posted on the first thread. It was supposed to the main part of the post. However, I just decided to tack on the other question. because it is rare to get a reply for Malayalam.  Anyway, would you by any chance know any place where I can find the consonants with the old style vowel signs?


----------



## Kannan91

lachesisdecima said:


> So, the word initial റ will never occur in tatsamam Sanskrit words in Malayalam? They can only be found in select foreign word imports?


That's right. Actually I don't think റ occurs in any position in any Sanskrit loanwords at all, tatsamam or tadbhavam.
[link to commercial site removed by moderator, as per Forum Rules#6]


----------



## Dib

Thank you, Kannan, for the excellent exposition.



Kannan91 said:


> You're right, but let me just add something about the allophones. According to Bhadriraju Krishnamurti (2003, p.53), the alveolar /t/ would have been realized as a rhotic intervocalically  (and as a voiced stop when following a nasal), even in Old Tamil, so I don't think it's a change that occurred "in the meanwhile".



I should have checked in the Krishnamurti lying in my bookshelf before posting. It was sloppy of me.


----------

