# Urdu:  muttle3/'ittilā3 مُطَّلِع – اِطِّلاع



## lcfatima

I heard this word itla/atla and I cannot find it in my dictionary. It was in the context of a potentiential employer contacting an applicant for 'atla/itla.' I took it to mean 'further information' and am guessing it is connected to the Arabic verb yitla. What is the correct translation and spelling of this word?


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## Faylasoof

Fatima, I think this seems like: 

_iTTilaa3_ اِطِّلاع =  _aagaahii_ آگاہی= _waaqfiyyat_  واقفیت= _i3laan_ اعلان = _xabar_ خبر= information / notice / announcement / declaring / notification  

 Arabic verb _iTTala3a_ اِطَّلَعَ/ _yaTTali3u_ يَطَّلِعُ= to look, see behold; be informed / aware / cognizant. 

 We also use _muTTala3 karnaa_ مُطَّلَع کرنا= to notify, intimate, inform, make aware.


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## panjabigator

I've always been confused between 1) اِطِّلاع کرنا and 2) مطلع کرنا.  Is the distinction just 1) to inform someone and 2) to make someone informed/aware?  These two seem to be a bit interchangeable.


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## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> I've always been confused between 1) اِطِّلاع کرنا and 2) مطلع کرنا.  Is the distinction just 1) to inform someone and 2) to make someone informed/aware?  These two seem to be a bit interchangeable.



You are right PG! A lot of the time we can use them interchangeably. 

Both can be used to mean <to inform, apprise etc.>. Of course there is also مطلع ہونا =  to be informed.


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## linguist786

Personally, "muttali3 karnaa" sounds a bit funny to me. "muttali3 honaa" on the other hand sounds fine. Maybe because "muttali3" is the agent noun of "ittilaa3".

I would say "[kisi ko] ittilaa3 karnaa/denaa" 

Also, "muttali3 karwaanaa" sounds plausible, although to me it sounds too high-register and not sure if it would even be used.


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## Faylasoof

linguist786 said:


> Personally, "muttali3 karnaa" sounds a bit funny to  me. "muttali3 honaa" on the other hand sounds fine. Maybe because  "muttali3" is the agent noun of "ittilaa3".
> 
> I would say "[kisi ko] ittilaa3 karnaa/denaa"
> 
> Also, "muttali3 karwaanaa" sounds plausible, although to me it sounds  too high-register and not sure if it would even be used.


 This is a perfectly idiomatic use and we use it all the  time! Here is Platts. Shows usage both of _karnaa_ and _honaa_, as expected.

Yes, these are used all the time.

This too is used! Here, _karnaa_ <-> _karwaanaa_ works in the usual way. Why do say it is only high register Urdu. Frequency might depend though on what region / household one is from but I'm not sure if i would consider it high register.
Here  is Platts again: _iTTilaa3 karnaa / honaa_. 

_iTTilaa3__ denaa_ is also used with equal frequency.


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## Abu Talha

Hello,

I was wondering if the word we use in Urdu is always _iTTilaa3_ (measure _ifti3aal_) and never _iTlaa3_ (measure _2if3aal_). It seems that for the meaning of "to notify someone" _iTlaa3 karnaa_ would also work.

For example it you say mujhe iTlaa3 milii kih ..., it seems to make more sense than mujhe iTTilaa3 milii kih..., because here we are talking about a simple notification, not some deep cognizance, and also that receiving information is a transitive action which seems more suited to _iTlaa3_. 

Of course this is contingent on whether Urdu has borrowed _iTlaa3_.

What do you think? Thanks.


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Hello,
> 
> I was wondering if the word we use in Urdu is always _iTTilaa3_ (measure _ifti3aal_) and never _iTlaa3_ (measure _2if3aal_). It seems that for the meaning of "to notify someone" _iTlaa3 karnaa_ would also work.
> 
> For example it you say mujhe iTlaa3 milii kih ..., it seems to make more sense than mujhe iTTilaa3 milii kih..., because here we are talking about a simple notification, not some deep cognizance, and also that receiving information is a transitive action which seems more suited to _iTlaa3_.
> 
> Of course this is contingent on whether Urdu has borrowed _iTlaa3_.
> 
> What do you think? Thanks.




Wehr does not seem to include the verbal noun "itlaa3" from pattern IV of the Arabic verb. Urdu dictionaries do give the word as "ittilaa3".


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## Abu Talha

Thanks, Qureshpor Sahib.


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## cherine

QURESHPOR said:


> Wehr does not seem to include the verbal noun "itlaa3" from pattern IV of the Arabic verb. Urdu dictionaries do give the word as "ittilaa3".


My copy of Wehr (ed. Librairie du Liban, 3rd edition, 1980) does give the form IV. Some of the meanings provided are:
to inform, notify, let someone know, to demonstrate, point out....etc.
And it's a commonly used form in Arabic.


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## Qureshpor

cherine said:


> My copy of Wehr (ed. Librairie du Liban, 3rd edition, 1980) does give the form IV. Some of the meanings provided are:
> to inform, notify, let someone know, to demonstrate, point out....etc.
> And it's a commonly used form in Arabic.



Yes, this is true Cherine. But does it give the verbal root for this verb pattern?


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## Abu Talha

Thank you أختي الفاضلة Cherine, for also chiming in.





QURESHPOR said:


> Yes, this is true Cherine. But does it give the verbal root for this verb pattern?


As far as I know, Wehr's inclusion of participles and verbal nouns only means that they have a special meaning or that they are common enough in that form to be worth mentioning. I think Arabic can still form a verbal noun or use a participle and it will give the meaning of the verb even if that verbal noun or participle is not listed by Wehr. For example, we use _inkishaaf_ in Urdu but Wehr does not list it (as far as I can see) under <ك ش ف>. However, Wehr does list the verb انكشف and Arabic speakers can form انكشاف whenever they need to. 

Having said that, the listing of a particular verbal noun or participle does throw some weight to its having been borrowed by Urdu.

Qureshpor Saahib, I wonder if I draw upon your encyclopedic knowledge (ما شاء الله) of Urdu poetry to ask if you have ever come across اطلاع in classical verse. The wazn should tell us whether _iTTilaa3_ or _iTlaa3_ is being used.

Cherine, in Urdu we form compound verbs using borrowed words by attaching them to simple verbs like "to take", "to give", etc. Given your knowledge of the meaning of  _iTTilaa3_ and _iTlaa3_ may I ask you which sentence seems to makes more sense:

I received an _iTTilaa3_ that classes had been cancelled that day.
I received an _iTlaa3_ that classes had been cancelled that day.

He gave me an _iTTilaa3_ that classes had been cancelled that day.
He gave me an _iTlaa3_ that classes had been cancelled that day.

In the end I should mention that this discussion is really only theoretical. Borrowed words frequently change or expand in their meaning, so we could very well be using _iTTilaa3_ in Urdu where _iTlaa3_ is used in Arabic.


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## Abu Talha

Something else which crossed my mind. _iTTilaa3 honaa_ seems to make more sense than _iTlaa3 honaa_ since this is intransitive. Then to make it transitive/causative, _karnaa_ is substituted for _honaa_.


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Qureshpor Saahib, I wonder if I draw upon your encyclopedic knowledge (ما شاء الله) of Urdu poetry to ask if you have ever come across اطلاع in classical verse. The wazn should tell us whether _iTTilaa3_ or _iTlaa3_ is being used.



kaash kih yih baat sach hotii aur maiN aap ko kahtaa "aap ke muNh meN ghii shakkar"! Truth of the matter is that I use all the resources at my disposal to find suitable quotes from Urdu poetry (and on occasions, prose). My brain is like a sieve and I can hardly remember any couplets!

de kyoN nah daaGh-i-dil se dam-i-sard ittilaa3
miltaa hai nit nasiim-i-saHar se suraaGh-i-gul

Qaa'im ChaaNdpurii (1722-1794)


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## marrish

daee said:


> Cherine, in Urdu we form compound verbs using borrowed words by attaching them to simple verbs like "to take", "to give", etc.


Excuse me for not contributing to the topic, but for the sake of clarity let me add that *not only borrowed words* are used in compound verbs (think of _kaam karnaa, bichaar karnaa, thappaR maarnaa_ etc.)


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## cherine

daee said:


> Thank you أختي الفاضلة Cherine, for also chiming in.


عفوًا، أخي الفاضل I just thought I clarified the part I could be helpful with.


> I think Arabic can still form a verbal noun or use a participle and it will give the meaning of the verb even if that verbal noun or participle is not listed by Wehr. For example, we use _inkishaaf_ in Urdu but Wehr does not list it (as far as I can see) under <ك ش ف>. However, Wehr does list the verb انكشف and Arabic speakers can form انكشاف whenever they need to.


I never pay attention to Wehr's forms because, as we said before in the Arabic forum, Arabic native speakers don't learn morphology this way. I just looked up "form IV" 
But yes, the maSdar إطْلاع (note the hamza) and its verb أطْلع are commonly used in Arabic, and you would especially find it in pieces of news about an ambassador or a minister visiting a president and أطلعه على الأخبار/مستجدات الأمور ...


> Cherine, in Urdu we form compound verbs using borrowed words by attaching them to simple verbs like "to take", "to give", etc. Given your knowledge of the meaning of  _iTTilaa3_ and _iTlaa3_ may I ask you which sentence seems to makes more sense:
> 
> I received an _iTTilaa3_ that classes had been cancelled that day.
> I received an _iTlaa3_ that classes had been cancelled that day.
> 
> He gave me an _iTTilaa3_ that classes had been cancelled that day.
> He gave me an _iTlaa3_ that classes had been cancelled that day.
> 
> In the end I should mention that this discussion is really only theoretical. Borrowed words frequently change or expand in their meaning, so we could very well be using _iTTilaa3_ in Urdu where _iTlaa3_ is used in Arabic.


This is a bit difficult because we don't use إطلاع/اطِّلاع as "something received" in Arabic. My first thought was that it should be iTlaa3, but then I hesitated.

What I can say is that in Arabic, iTTilaa3 is when you see something by yourself and iTlaa3is when someone shows you something (or when you show something to someone else). I think it's like the difference between a transitive and intransitive verb.
By the way, iTTilaa3 is of the patern افتعال but the ت is turned into ط for "harmony" لمجاورتها الطاء . The same for the verb: افتعل and it's turned into اطَّلع instead of اتطلع.


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## Faylasoof

We always use iTTilaa3 and never iTlaa3 alhough in the original Arabic it would be exactly as Cherine pointed out - one in a intransitive and the other in the transitive sense. But in Urdu we achieve  the same effect by combining iTTilaa3 with either _honaa_ (intransitive) and _karnaa_ (transitive). 

If one were to try use iTlaa3 in Urdu then one would appear to be mispronouncing iTTlaa3 since many people say iTlaa3 when they are actually trying to say iTTlaa3!!


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## Abu Talha

Thank you, everyone, for your responses and corrections.


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