# Takusan



## blank

In this sentence:

Takusan takibi wo taku tokoro

How can I know if "takusan" is the adnominal for "takibi" or "tokoro"?

How will you translate it:
a. The place where they light a lot of bonfires.
OR
b. There are many places where they light bonfire


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## Flaminius

שלום בלנק 

I am sorry but I am not sure what you mean by "adnominal."  If it is a part of speech that modifies a noun, the proper name is adjective (תאר השם).

Now, _takusan_ is not an adjective but an adverb (תאר הפעל).  An adverb can modify a verb, a clause or a whole sentence.  In your example sentence it modifies the verb _taku_ (to build a fire).  In a rather clumsy phraseology, it means;
A place where they make bonfires a lot.

A more natural English sentence is (cf. your Sentence a); 
A place where they make a lot of bonfires.

PS:
Adnominal is indeed a legitimate term in Japanese grammar.  It generally refers to a verb form that can be connected with a noun, making relative clauses or other noun clauses.
E.g., _taku_ in your "Takusan takibi wo taku tokoro" is an adnominal form since it is immediately followed by a noun, _tokoro_ (place).


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## blank

But isn't "takusan" can also modify nouns, like in the phrase "takusan neko (or some other noun)"?

I'm still find it hard to distinguish whether is describes "tokoro" or "takibi", because that in the book which I study from it is translated to "a lot of places where they make the bonfires".


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## uchi.m

If you are willing to stick _takusan_ to a noun, you could say instead _takusan no neko_, but, personally, I prefer _neko ga takusan (imasu)_.
Use _takusan_ mainly as an adverb and you'll be golden.


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## Flaminius

I am really sorry, *blank*. What I said contains a fundamental mistake. I will post a correction later but I don't have much time presently. 

mamash mitsTa`er....


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## kaori

Hi everyone,
I can't tell which is right only by the sentense you refered.
If there was "ga arimasu" after it I would translate it as b.
Takusan takibi wo taku tokoro ga arimasu.

But it is still ambiguous.
I would say:
a. The place where they light a lot of bonfires.
->Takusan no takibi wo taku tokoro ga arimasu.
b. There are many places where they light bonfire
->Takibi wo taku tokoro ga takusan arimasu.


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## blank

Thank you kaori and uchi.m, I think I got it better now.


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## Kiyotsune

Hi, I take the chance to ask you... what's the difference between "takibi" and "takigi", then?

Thank you.


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## kaori

Takibi is the fire, takigi is the wood.
Ciao


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## Kiyotsune

Thanks a lot!


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## Flaminius

*blank* and fellow posters,

I now set out to correct what I have said _supra_ #2.  If adjective is a general word for anything that modifies a noun, _takusan_ is indeed an adjective.  Admominal, as per *blank*, seems to be a more appropriate word for it because what are generally called Japanese adjectives are to follow conjugation patterns similar to that of verbs (e.g., _shirokunai_, _shirokatta_, _shiroi_ etc.).  I mistook _takusan_ as an adverb because I overlooked that your example can mean two different things.  It has only one verb, so no ambiguity could arise if what I thought an adverb modified it.

In any event, it is true that making the example, which is actually a fragment, a complete sentence can illustrate how _takusan_ can modify two different elements.

1a. Takusan takibi wo taku tokoro desu — [It is] a place to make a lot of bonfires.
1b.  Takusan takibi wo taku tokoro ga arimasu — There are [in this place] a lot of places to make bonfires.

Using brackets to express the clause of which _takusan_ is part, 1a can be captured as:
[takusan takibi wo] taku tokoro desu

Sentence 1b similarly is:
[Takusan takibi wo taku tokoro ga] arimasu

The two interpretations are possible because _takusan_ is an adnominal or adjective so it can modify two nouns in this example.

Alternatives to eliminate ambiguity have been suggested by *kaori*:


kaori said:


> I would say:
> a. The place where they light a lot of bonfires.
> ->Takusan no takibi wo taku tokoro ga arimasu.
> b. There are many places where they light bonfire
> ->Takibi wo taku tokoro ga takusan arimasu.



While b. successfully eliminates the other interpretation, Sentence a. can allow the interpretation for b. (albeit a forced understanding).  This sentence can be rewritten:
takibi wo takusan taku tokoro ga arimasu.


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## blank

Thank you for your detailed explanations Flaminius!


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## uchi.m

But wait, if _takusan _were indeed an adjective, wouldn't it be correct to stick it promptly to the noun, without the need of a particle?

For instance: 

a red car = _akai kuruma_ 
a lot of cats = _takusan neko_ (is this right? if so, then_ takusan _really is an adjective)




One might wonder if _takusan _is a -na adjective. If so, wouldn't the following sentence be correct?

a healthy person = _genki na hito_
a lot of people = _takusan na hito _(is this right? If so, then _takusan _really is a -na adjective)


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## Flaminius

uchi.m said:


> a red car = _akai kuruma_
> a lot of cats = _takusan neko_ (is this right? if so, then_ takusan _really is an adjective)


Yes, it is.  Yet _takusan neko_ is a bit odd, so a postposition is required to make the fragment stable:
Takusan neko-o katte iru.
I understand _takusan_ is used as a quantifier in this sentence.  Since quantifiers modify nouns, they are _sensu lato_ adjectives.



> One might wonder if _takusan _is a -na adjective. If so, wouldn't the following sentence be correct?
> 
> a healthy person = _genki na hito_
> a lot of people = _takusan na hito _(is this right? If so, then _takusan _really is a -na adjective)


This is a very difficult judgement.  _Takusanna hito_ is not so ungrammatical but, compared to _takusan-no_, _-na_ sounds very old.  Some _-da_/_na_ adjectives have the adnominal form end in either _-no_ or _-na_ or exclusively in _-no_.  Also, the line between _-da_/_na_ adjectives and nouns are often blurry.


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## cheshire

たくさんの: 連体形 adnominal
たくさん： 連用形 adverbial


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