# Pronunciation of "ו" before a word (meaning "and")



## Konstantinos

I and you - אני ואתה - ani *ve*ata
Read and write - קריאה וכתיבה - kria *u*ktiva

Two different cases? Or I am not listening well?


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## Drink

You heard correctly. In traditional Hebrew grammar there are a lot of rules about the pronunciation of this prefix, it can be ve-, u-, va-, vi- (when merging with y'-) and rarely vo-. However, most Israelis don't follow the rules and pronounce it almost always as ve-.


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## Konstantinos

Thank you Drink. Where can I find these rules?


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## Drink

Konstantinos said:


> Thank you Drink. Where can I find these rules?



The rules won't make any sense unless you know niqqud. But Wiktionary has a nice explanation: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ו־


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## Konstantinos

Thank you Drink (I have planned to learn niqqud, of course)...


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## refiZ

My hint for learning when it has the 'u' sound is to just have examples in my head. Of course, the anagram is helpful as it covers many cases.

With the 'כ' and 'ב', it changes the sound of two letters. With 'ל', the vowel is the key, just change it if it is the short one and that seems to do the trick most time! However, this one also seems to be most ignored in spoken Modern Hebrew. I can be wrong so I wait for more input by Israelis. But, I like using high register when I can.


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## arielipi

a shva after vav hakhibur causes it to become /u/ sound. thats the easiest one; i think that בכלמ also makes it an /u/ sound.


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## Drink

arielipi said:


> i think that בכלמ also makes it an /u/ sound.



It's בומפ not בכלמ. In other words it's the labial consonants, which are the ones pronounced with your lips (with your bottom lip touching either the top lip or the top teeth).


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## Yuzer

It's originally /wu/. That's the only place where ו hasn't transformed to /v/ that I can think of, as it probably became /u/ earlier on.



refiZ said:


> My hint for learning when it has the 'u' sound is to just have examples in my head. Of course, the anagram is helpful as it covers many cases.
> 
> With the 'כ' and 'ב', it changes the sound of two letters. With 'ל', the vowel is the key, just change it if it is the short one and that seems to do the trick most time! However, this one also seems to be most ignored in spoken Modern Hebrew. I can be wrong so I wait for more input by Israelis. But, I like using high register when I can.


In Modern Hebrew it's mostly in expressions, where it's simply lexical. Like ובכן - [uv'χen]. It's also /va/ in expressions like בשר ודם.
Not sure what you mean by 'the short one' and 'ל' though.


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## refiZ

Interesting. So that is probably similar to what I am thinking.

For example, 'וביום' = 'u-va-yom'. Or in the 'לכה דודי' (lekha dodi), there is the last line in the first verse.

"לשם ולתפארת ולתהלה" = LeShem ul-tiferet, ve-lit-hila. 

By the 'short one', I mean the niqqud with two vertical dots. (I don't know how to produce niqqud on my computer). 

For example, 'רפאל וראובן' = Rafael u-Re-uven. That is because there is no/tiny vowel after the resh.

Actually, why isn't it, "ולתהלה" = ul-thi-la here? Isn't that the double dot in 'תהלה'?


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## Yuzer

Oh, I get your meaning 

The niqqud you mean is the shva.

I'll try to explain the ancient phonology as understood today:
There are two kinds of shva: Na ("moving") and Nah ("resting").
Hebrew words must begin with a consonant and than a vowel. In word beginnings, it's always a "moving" one.
In addition, there can't be two moving shvas together.

There is a shva in תהילה, which is why the ל can't have a shva as well.
Ancient suggested pronunciations:
תהילה - [təhil:a:]
לתהילה - [liθəhil:a:]
ולתהילה - [uliθəhil:a:]

Hope I got it right and that helps.

In Modern Hebrew, the rules for pronouncing shvas are not official but rather instinctive. I can try as an amateur linguist whose studies are on hold to work it out for you if you'd open another thread (I just don't want to "ruin" this one).


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## refiZ

Fantastic. Thank you that makes sense now regarding two shva in a row.

Does the [t] go to [θ] because of a dagesh?


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## Yuzer

refiZ said:


> Fantastic. Thank you that makes sense now regarding two shva in a row.
> 
> Does the [t] go to [θ] because of a dagesh?


It used to be just like b turns to v. In Ashkenazi accent it turned to s for example. In others merged back with t.


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## origumi

Yuzer said:


> Ancient suggested pronunciations:
> תהילה - [təhil:a:]
> לתהילה - [liθəhil:a:]
> ולתהילה - [uliθəhil:a:]


תהילה - [təhil:a:]
לתהילה - [li*θ*hil:a:] (the שוא נע of θ becomes שוא מרחף, like any שוא נע at start of word when prefixed by כלב"ו letters
ולתהילה - [*və*liθhil:a:] (e.g. Jeremiah 13:11, I am not sure about the שוא of θ)


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## Yuzer

origumi said:


> תהילה - [təhil:a:]
> לתהילה - [li*θ*hil:a:] (the שוא נע of θ becomes שוא מרחף, like any שוא נע at start of word when prefixed by כלב"ו letters
> ולתהילה - [*və*liθhil:a:] (e.g. Jeremiah 13:11, I am not sure about the שוא of θ)


Oh my, I was supposed to explain to him why it's not u at the beginning  My bad.
And thanks for the shva merahef correction..


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## Drink

origumi said:


> תהילה - [təhil:a:]
> לתהילה - [li*θ*hil:a:] (the שוא נע of θ becomes שוא מרחף, like any שוא נע at start of word when prefixed by כלב"ו letters
> ולתהילה - [*və*liθhil:a:] (e.g. Jeremiah 13:11, I am not sure about the שוא of θ)



שוא מרחף is a controversial concept. It may not be different at all from a שוא נע.


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## origumi

Drink said:


> שוא מרחף is a controversial concept. It may not be different at all from a שוא נע.


We're discussing here only one case: what happens to שוא נע of the first word letter when ו החיבור or one of אותיות השימוש כל"ב appear before it. Mainstream opinions should suffice.
The rule I wrote above, as it usually happens with such rules, has exceptions. Maybe we can find an article that covers the issue.


Until we find an authoritative source, here is an excerpt of what students learn for בחינת בגרות בלשון:

שווא מרחף הינו שווא שנוצר כתוצאה מביקוע צרור שוואים נעים (או בעברית פחות אימתנית: מפירוק רצף של שני שוואים נעים שנמצאים לכאורה בראש מילה). כתוצאה מביקוע זה - הופך השווא הנע הראשון לתנועה קצרה, והשווא שאחריו מקבל מעמד של שווא מרחף כי:

מצד אחד - מקורו בתנועה או בשווא נע ,ומבחינה זו הוא נע. גם לא יהיה דגש קל ב-ב'ג'ד' כ'פ'ת' אחריו.
מצד שני - יש לו גם תכונה של שווא נח, שכן הוא מופיע לאחר תנועה קצרה.

השם "מרחף" ניתן לו בשל היותו מצב ביניים בין שווא נח לבין שווא נע, כלומר יש לו התכונות של שניהם.

...

2.   אותיות השימוש וְ -כְּ –לְ- בְּ כשאחריהן באה מילה הפותחת בשווא, מה שיוצר רצף של שני שוואים נעים, שחייב להתבקע/להתפרק והתוצאה שוב: השווא הראשון הופך לתנועה קצרה (רק ב-ו' החיבור הוא הופך לשורוק) והשני מקבל מעמד של מרחף מאותן סיבות שהוזכרו לעיל.


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## Drink

origumi said:


> We're discussing here only one case: what happens to שוא נע of the first word letter when ו החיבור or one of אותיות השימוש כל"ב appear before it. Mainstream opinions should suffice.
> The rule I wrote above, as it usually happens with such rules, has exceptions. Maybe we can find an article that covers the issue.
> 
> 
> Until we find an authoritative source, here is an excerpt of what students learn for בחינת בגרות בלשון:
> 
> שווא מרחף הינו שווא שנוצר כתוצאה מביקוע צרור שוואים נעים (או בעברית פחות אימתנית: מפירוק רצף של שני שוואים נעים שנמצאים לכאורה בראש מילה). כתוצאה מביקוע זה - הופך השווא הנע הראשון לתנועה קצרה, והשווא שאחריו מקבל מעמד של שווא מרחף כי:
> 
> מצד אחד - מקורו בתנועה או בשווא נע ,ומבחינה זו הוא נע. גם לא יהיה דגש קל ב-ב'ג'ד' כ'פ'ת' אחריו.
> מצד שני - יש לו גם תכונה של שווא נח, שכן הוא מופיע לאחר תנועה קצרה.
> 
> השם "מרחף" ניתן לו בשל היותו מצב ביניים בין שווא נח לבין שווא נע, כלומר יש לו התכונות של שניהם.
> 
> ...
> 
> 2.   אותיות השימוש וְ -כְּ –לְ- בְּ כשאחריהן באה מילה הפותחת בשווא, מה שיוצר רצף של שני שוואים נעים, שחייב להתבקע/להתפרק והתוצאה שוב: השווא הראשון הופך לתנועה קצרה (רק ב-ו' החיבור הוא הופך לשורוק) והשני מקבל מעמד של מרחף מאותן סיבות שהוזכרו לעיל.



There isn't only one mainstream opinion. Other mainstream opinions are that the שוא in words such as "*תְּ*הִלָּה" [t*ə*hil:a:] does not change in "לִ*תְ*הִלָּה" [liθ*ə*hil:a:], and is also pronounced in cases such as מַ*לְ*כֵי [mal*ə*χe:] and אֶ*תְ*כֶם [ʔeθ*ə*χem]. This is an undecided question.


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