# The pronunciation of ч (č, tsch, cz)



## jester.

Split from here.





			
				übermönch said:
			
		

> ...and also prnounce the ч as the tsch in german you'll be certainly mistaken for a white russian.


Well that is also wirten in my book... How else should it be pronounced, according to you?


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## cyanista

übermönch said:
			
		

> If you instead use a long and voiced ah and also prnounce the ч as the tsch in german you'll be certainly mistaken for a white russian.



LOL
I don't speak like that! But Lukashenka certainly does.



			
				j3st3r said:
			
		

> Well that is also wirten in my book... How else should it be pronounced, according to you?



Well, the Russian ч is "soft" (palatalized) and the German/Belarusian one is "hard". This description might help you:


> Die Konsonanten "*щ*" /ʆʆ/ und "*ч*" //tʲʆ// werden im Russischen immer weich und lang ausgesprochen, ungefähr wie "schtsch" bzw. "tsch". *But a lot softer!! /C./* Einige Sprachwissenschaftler sind der Meinung, dass /ʆ/ kein eigenstäniger Laut, sondern nur eine weiche Variante des Lautes /ʃ/ ist. Deshalb wird das "щ" in der Lautschrift zunehmend als /ʃʲʃʲ/ und "ч" als /tʲʃʲ/ wiedergegeben


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## Anatoli

Jana337 said:
			
		

> What is wrong with the German č?
> Jana


German, Ukrainian, Polish and Belarusian č (tsch, ч, cz) are harder than Russian (to a various degree), Russian ч is even softer than English ch, which in turn is softer than German tsch.


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## jester.

So would it be better to pronounce "dsch" instead of "tsch"?


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## Anatoli

Not sure what you mean, J3st3r (did I spell it right?).

I didn't mean voiced/unvoiced. I mean softness/palatalisation. If you have German background, German tsch is the closest you can get.

Think of "tja" in German, "t'" is palatalised here, different from "t" in "tanzen".


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## jester.

Of course I have German background, I am German 


Well, I'm not sure if you understood me correctly and if I understood you correctly so this is a little mess 

You said the sound is nearly "tsch" but it is a bit softer, right?

So I proposed "dsch" which would make the "t-part" softer, but it has just occurred to me that you might also have referred to the "sch-part" which had to be softer.

That would maybe be "tch" in written form.

Well I hope this was a bit more understandable and that you might have another look at this and tell me which of my ideas is right.


By the way, I don't know how good your German is but we could maybe wait for Cyanista who is fluent in German and Russian. She might be able to provide us with a good comparison of the sounds.


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## cyanista

Anatoli is right, voiced-unvoiced (d-t, b-p) has nothing to do with palatalized/unpalatalized (tj-t, pj-p). Using d instead of t or zh instead of sh will bring you nothing.

I would go as far as to say that there is no t-part and sch-part in Russian. The German spelling and even the international transcription [tj*ʃ*j] are misleading. Ч is one consonant and you can't break it into parts.

This palatalization issue is one of the most difficult for foreigners trying to learn Russian pronunciation. Read this thread, read articles about palatalization (Palatalisierung) in Wiki, listen to tapes... You'll figure it out, I'm sure.


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## Anatoli

J3st3r, ich habe Sie gut vestanden und ich hoffe Sie verstehen mich auch. Die Palatalisierung ist nicht einfach zu erklären, man nennt das "weiche" Konsonanten aber es werden palatalisierte gemeint. Man muß viel hören und üben, um gute Aussprache zu erreichen, da es keine Palatalisierung im Deutschen gibt.

д un т sind lauthaft/lautlos, aber д und дь; т und ть sind unpalatalisiert und palatalisiert. Ich habe in diesem Sinne (palatalisiert) das wort "weich" benutzt. Der Buchstabe "ь" (мягкий знак=weiches Zeichen) macht Konsonante palatalisiert (weich).


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## jester.

And I had really dared to think pronunciation was the easy part...


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## cyanista

If I were you I would concentrate on grammar and vocabulary first. Pronunciation is a secondary issue. It's no big deal if you can't soften your "tsch" or roll the "r". I don't think it would prevent someone from understanding you, so why bother?


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## Whodunit

cyanista said:
			
		

> If I were you I would concentrate on grammar and vocabulary first. Pronunciation is a secondary issue. It's no big deal if you can't soften your "tsch" or roll the "r". I don't think it would prevent someone from understanding you, so why bother?


 
Let me elaborate on this issue, though. 

I like J3's suggestion: "tch". It is much softer than "tsch" and a bit harder than "tj" (as in tja). I know that there are many sounds in Russian that can't be written in Latin script, but don't you think that tch would come close to ч? A loose pronunciation of the German word "Matjes" seems to sound like "мaчec".


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## Anatoli

I wouldn't worry either, as I said listen more, you'll get better.


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## OCCASVS

Would I do a mistake if I spelled ч simply as English CH (CHeese, CHat...)?


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## Whodunit

OCCASVS said:
			
		

> Would I do a mistake if I spelled ч simply as English CH (CHeese, CHat...)?


 
No, you wouldn't. But it would not be an exact transliteration.


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## OCCASVS

Whodunit said:
			
		

> No, you wouldn't. But it would not be an exact transliteration.


Thank you!


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## cyanista

Whodunit said:
			
		

> No, you wouldn't. But it would not be an exact transliteration.


What do you mean by "exact transliteration"? 

*ч->ch* is the usual way of transliteration into Englisch  (*Ч*елябинск-*Ch*elyabinsk)

For German it's, obviously, *ч->tsch *(*Tsch*eljabinsk)


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## Whodunit

cyanista said:
			
		

> What do you mean by "exact transliteration"?
> 
> *ч->ch* is the usual way of transliteration into Englisch (*Ч*елябинск-*Ch*elyabinsk)
> 
> For German it's, obviously, *ч->tsch *(*Tsch*eljabinsk)


 
What is this thread about? Wasn't it you who has always stated that "tsch" is not pronounced like ч?


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## Jana337

Whodunit said:
			
		

> What is this thread about? Wasn't it you who has always stated that "tsch" is not pronounced like ч?


If German does not have a corresponding sound, it is only logical that the closest possible is used, right? 

Jana


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## übermönch

I think the english ch in *ch*eese is actually the right sound, but doesn't seem to appear in other words like *ch*at, *ch*ange etc.


			
				Whodunit said:
			
		

> Let me elaborate on this issue, though.
> 
> I like J3's suggestion: "tch". It is much softer than "tsch" and a bit harder than "tj" (as in tja). I know that there are many sounds in Russian that can't be written in Latin script, but don't you think that tch would come close to ч? A loose pronunciation of the German word "Matjes" seems to sound like "мaчec".


 
Das wär aber *viel *zu weich.

@Jana& Whodunit
There are official rules how to translate cyrillic charcters to German. (there are actually two, the FRG and the GDR one. The latter seems to be more efficient, but unfortunately it's obsolete.)


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