# Bay vs. Bey



## wordofdamocles

Hello.. I need some clarification on the matter "bay" and "bey". I know that bay is an older word for "sir" and that it goes before the name, eg. Bay Ahmet. From the other hand "Ahmet Bey" is also right? So, can I use both as equally correct expressions? 
(a friend told me that "bay" is only used for non-Turkish names, like "Bay James". Is this true?)


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## coss

Hello..When you're speaking, you should use Ahmet Bey.. Bay Ahmet is not common. If you're writing a formal letter, you can use Bay with name and family name together. Like Mr. John Brown, like Bay Ahmet Tekin..
Yes it is true that in the past, Bay+name was used for the non-Turkish names, but I don't hear it much nowadays.


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## Black4blue

No it'n not true. As I know *bay* and *bayan* (for females) is the same as *Mr.* and *Mrs.* . I guess they are borrowed from another language but I don't know which one. *Bey* and *Hanım* are older languages in Turkish.
So you can say _Ahmet Bey_, but I'm not sure about _Bay Ahmet_; because *Bay* normally takes surnames like _English *Mr*_.

Yeah, I need more clarification too


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## wordofdamocles

thank you both very much. I think it is clearer, but let us indeed wait for more clarifications if anyone else knows more about it


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## Rallino

*Bay* and *Bayan*, as mentioned above, can only be used with surnames. So if someone's name is _Ahmet Yılmaz_, you can say:

*Ahmet Bey*
or
*Bay Yılmaz*

Notice that their initial letters are capital and that in the latter case, it comes before the name.

*However*, although "Bey" and "Hanım" are very often used everyday, the other couple "Bay" and "Bayan" are _absurdly formal_ for any spoken situation. So much that it sounds unnatural. They are sometimes used at the beginnings of formal letters, or invitation cards, such as:

_Sayın Bay Yılmaz (Dear Sir Yılmaz)_...


Also, in dubbed movies, when a kid is calling an adult man, one can often encounter conversations starting with the weird vocative: _Bayım! Bakar mısınız?_ This is a non-standard conversation in Turkish. No one, and I mean no one would say that. We always use: *Beyefendi* and *Hanımefendi*, the latter is usually contracted to _Hanfendi_ in spoken language.




> (a friend told me that "bay" is only used for non-Turkish names, like "Bay James". Is this true?)




English and American people are hesitant to give their first names in the first meetings, therefore if, say, an American introduces himself with his last name, then he might, later on, be called: _Bay James.

_However, Turkish or not, with first names, we still most often use Bey, and by "we",  I mean at my work place, we use it. Such as: Frédéric Bey, Michael Bey, Alessia Hanım, Catia Hanım ....
 
​


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## wordofdamocles

you couldn't have been more helpful  my friend now it is crystal clear, thank u very much for all the information!


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## er targyn

Are bayan and sayın new words?


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## wordofdamocles

er targyn said:


> Are bayan and sayın new words?



'bayan' is the same with 'hanım' but a bit older as far as I understand, while sayın is sth equivalent to 'respectful'(formal).


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## er targyn

Both words are loans from Mongolic, maybe via other Turkic language.


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## linusbey

er targyn said:


> Are bayan and sayın new words?



The first recorded instance of the word "bayan" is in a 1934 issue of a history periodical, according to Sevan Nişanyan. It's an invented word, like "bay". Bay was a derivation of the more traditional word "bey". "-an" has never been used as a feminine suffix at any period of Turkic languages, but they've done it, so there you go.

As for "sayın", it also fills a similar purpose. During the time of the language reforms, they found the word in a Chatagai dictionary written by Pavet Courteille and decided to put it into use. It was first used in a Turkish pocket dictionary in 1935, so it's quite new.


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## er targyn

Thanks. Btw, bay is a Turkic word, which means rich, noble, husband.


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