# street vendor's



## meijin

Hi, I don't think you can call the following place a _shop_, _store_, _stall_, _booth_, or _tent_. I'm not sure you can call it a _stand_.







But you definitely wouldn't call the following one a _stand_. You would probably say, for example, "I bought these shoes at a market" if there were other vendors on the street (just like in the photo), but what about when there was just one vendor selling items in the middle of the street with no tables/counters at all?






So, when you don't know what to call it, is it OK to call it just "vendor's"?

_Friend: Where did you buy these shoes?
Me: At a street vendor's._

It's probably more natural to say _"I bought them from a street vendor"_. Do you agree?


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## Keith Bradford

meijin said:


> ...It's probably more natural to say _"I bought them from a street vendor"_. Do you agree?


Yes.

However, the first photo *is* a stand - you can clearly see it's on three levels.


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## meijin

Thanks Keith. So that's a stand. I wonder if can still be called a stand when there is only a very low table.

Also, the following is from Round Up.

_Santa Lucia parade: Kingsburg's annual Santa Lucia Celebration is 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. Dec. 2 in Downtown Draper. Enjoy shopping at street vendors and local merchants' shops. Event includes a gingerbread house contest and Festival of Lights parade at 5:30 p.m._

Do you find "shopping at street venders" idiomatic? I mean, is it OK to use the term "street vendor" referring to the place, not the person, just like _greengrocer_?


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## heypresto

I would describe what is shown in the second photo as a stall. The fact that the goods are spread on the ground rather than on a table, or some boxes, is neither here nor there.

And I would probably say 'I bought it from a street vendor', or ' . . . at a stall in the market' or ' . . . off a woman in the market.'

I don't think we necessarily have strict precise terms for every type of street retailing situation. And I don't think we think or worry about it very much.


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## kentix

It's really not common at all where I live, so even less reason to have specific terms. A festival like the one mentioned above might be the only time you see something like that.


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## meijin

heypresto said:


> I would describe what is shown in the second photo a stall. The fact that the goods are spread on the ground rather than on a table, or some boxes, is neither here nor there.


So, none of the other words (_shop, store, booth, tent, stand_) would work for that thing in the second picture, but _stall_ would work. Very interesting. I thought a stall needed at least three sides (like the stalls in a stable).



kentix said:


> It's really not common at all where I live, so even less reason to have specific terms.


Do you mean calling that a stall is fine from an AmE perspective too?


Also, about the question in my last post, is it fine to say, for example, "I like shopping at street vendors" if I like buying things from street vendors?


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## kentix

I'm saying where I live there are no street vendors. I don't even know what to call that.


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## heypresto

meijin said:


> So, none of the other words (_shop, store, booth, tent, stand_) would work for that thing in the second picture


I wouldn't use any of these words.


meijin said:


> I thought a stall needed at least three sides


It doesn't have to have _any _sides.

I like shopping at street vendors. 
I like buying things from street vendors.


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## Roxxxannne

There are (or were the last time I wandered the streets, more than a year ago) plenty of street vendors in New York City.
I would call the first picture a 'stand.'  There's one (which I _have_ seen recently) about 100 meters from my apartment that looks quite a bit like the one in the first picture.

I don't think I have a word for the vendors that sell things displayed on blankets or other cloth spread out on the sidewalk, but I do see them.  If I needed to call them something, I'd probably say _sidewalk vendors_.

Postscript: I agree with heypresto: I'd say "I like buying things from ..." rather than "I like shopping at ..." in this context.


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## owlman5

meijin said:


> I thought a stall needed at least three sides (like the stalls in a stable).


I think so too. These definitions for the word _stall _agree with my understanding of what the word should mean:


a compartment, as in a stable, to confine an animal:the stalls for individual cows.
a booth in which merchandise is displayed for sale.
a small enclosed space for a specific activity or thing:a shower stall.


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## Roxxxannne

In the UK the structure in the first photo is a stall.  In the US it's a stand.


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## meijin

heypresto said:


> I like shopping at street vendors.
> I like buying things from street vendors.


I see. So I suppose the sentence "Enjoy shopping at street vendors and local merchants' shops" (which I quoted in post #3) is also unidiomatic.



heypresto said:


> It doesn't have to have _any _sides.


The following are definitions for the noun "stall" in the WR dictionary.

- a booth in which merchandise is displayed for sale.
- a booth or stand in which merchandise is displayed for sale, or in which some business is carried on (sometimes used in combination)
- a small often temporary stand or booth for the display and sale of goods

Well, they aren't quite right. It doesn't have to be a booth (which SHOULD have sides, in my opinion) or stand.



Roxxxannne said:


> I don't really have a word for the vendors that sell things displayed on blankets or other cloth spread out on the sidewalk, but I do see them. I'd probably call them sidewalk vendors.


So, in your opinion, it would be fine to say "I like shopping at sidewalk (or street) vendors"?



owlman5 said:


> I think so too.


That's really good to know.   



Roxxxannne said:


> In the UK the structure in the first photo is a stall. In the US it's a stand.


Wait, but Keith said it was a stand. Maybe it's much more complicated that I expected.


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## owlman5

Roxxxannne said:


> In the UK the structure in the first photo is a stall.  In the US it's a stand.


To tell you the truth, it doesn't even look like much of _stand _to me. Instead, it looks like an umbrella that was set up next to several crates.


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## Roxxxannne

meijin said:


> I see. So I suppose the sentence "Enjoy shopping at street vendors and local merchants' shops" (which I quoted in post #3) is also unidiomatic.
> 
> 
> The following are definitions for the noun "stall" in the WR dictionary.
> 
> - a booth in which merchandise is displayed for sale.
> - a booth or stand in which merchandise is displayed for sale, or in which some business is carried on (sometimes used in combination)
> - a small often temporary stand or booth for the display and sale of goods
> 
> Well, they aren't quite right. It doesn't have to be a booth (which SHOULD have sides, in my opinion) or stand.
> 
> 
> So, in your opinion, it would be fine to say "I like shopping at sidewalk (or street) vendors"?
> 
> 
> That's really good to know.
> 
> 
> Wait, but Keith said it was a stand. Maybe it's much more complicated that I expected.


Apparently it is more complicated for both of us. 
Keith says it's a stand but heypresto in #4 says "I would describe what is shown in the second photo as a stall. The fact that the goods are spread on the ground rather than on a table, or some boxes, is neither here nor there." I took that to mean that anything that involves a table or some boxes is also a stand.

In response to owlman, I agree that structurally it is an umbrella set up next to some boxes.  Nevertheless, I would call that combination of stuff a _stand_. Near my apartment in NYC, a man sells fruit and vegetables out of boxes that are arranged on, and in front of, a table with an umbrella over it. When I refer to that arrangement of things for sale I say "the stand on the corner."


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## heypresto

meijin said:


> Maybe it's much more complicated that I expected.


No, it's much less complicated than you seem to want it to be. 

Keith was talking about the first picture, and I was talking about the second.



A stall _can _be a booth with sides, but it doesn't _have _to be.


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## Roxxxannne

Is the first picture a stand to you, heypresto, or a stall, or both?


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## heypresto

I'd call it a stall.


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## JulianStuart

Collins (below) is suitably vague about geometry   My experience with stall in the UK is like the picture below.  The basic requirement is as simple as a table to display goods for sale; a backboard and cover are optional for the temporary operation (this is from a street market that only occurs on some days of the week).  Other markets are permanent and the cover/awning etc may be "permanent". In the US, I'd use the word "stand" - mainly because of the "produce stands" I see in the country around us.






> *stall*1 (stôl),  n.
> 
> Agriculture a compartment in a stable or shed for the accommodation of one animal.
> Agriculture a stable or shed for horses or cattle.
> *a booth or stand in which merchandise is displayed for sale, or in which some business is carried on (sometimes used in combination):*_a butcher's stall; a bookstall.                                                                   _


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## Packard

In order to display merchandise like that in any city in the USA, it would have to be directly in front of a physical store and it would have to be that store's merchandise.

In New York City, it is more tightly regulated than other locals.

New York City started "Open Store Fronts" program that permits store owners to display merchandise on the sidewalk.  This is in response to Covid-19 and will probably end sometime in the near future.

Are Any Small Shop-Owners Excited About the New ‘Streetail’ Program?

_First came the streeteries; now come the streetailers. Starting today, New York shops can participate in a new COVID-recovery program called “Open Storefronts,” which enables ground-floor businesses to use part of the sidewalk and, occasionally, adjacent curbside parking spots as part of their stores. The program will run until December 31, and follows the generally popular (though also criticized) expansion of restaurants out into public space._

Here is an example of the type of street display that is sometimes allowed:


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## Roxxxannne

I have to disagree with Packard's statement "In order to display merchandise like that in any city in the USA, it would have to be directly in front of a physical store and it would have to be that store's merchandise."  Perhaps it would be illegal in New York City for a random vendor to take up as much sidewalk space as in the photo in #18, but in NYC vendors set up table-and-crate arrangements (which I'd call stands) on the sidewalks fairly frequently. The fruit-and-vegetable stands are not associated with a nearby business that is housed in a building: the vendor's entire stock is on display on the sidewalk. I've also seen people selling books, figurines, scarfs, hats, toys, umbrellas -- all sorts of things -- displayed on tables on the sidewalk.  One table in particular that I often walk by has dsipays of toys and such, and cops never give the guy a hard time, although they often stand near it chatting with each other and keeping an eye on things in general.  So if it's illegal, it's definiey not enforced.  In addition, there are numerous farmers' markets in NYC that operate one or two days a week where sellers display fruits, vegetables, eggs, yarn, cider, honey, bread, wine, lavender-filled sachets and pillows, meat and fish (in coolers on ice), flowers, plants, etc. on stands on sidewalks and in squares where several streets meet.

In addition, it may be true that NYC allows more displays of merchandise on the sidewalk than it used to allow pre-Covid, but for decades, if not centuries, grocery stores in Manhattan have displayed their goods on the sidewalk in front of the building, exactly like the photo in Packard's post (and the article mentions that a lot of retailers have been doing this already).

I used to walk by a clothing store that regularly put merchandise out on display racks on the sidewalk and a hardware store that displayed things like flower pots, bags of potting soil, window screens, etc. on shelves on the sidewalk.


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## meijin

I think I first need to understand what a _stall _means in BrE (when talking about street vendors).  

I could be completely wrong, but maybe _stall_ is the generic term and _stand_, _booth_, _tent_, and maybe _food cart_ and even _food truck_ are different types of stall?


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## JulianStuart

You might well have a food truck (used generally to range from a bicycle-powered ice-cream vendor up to something the size of a bus with kitchen inside) near (or even as part of) a market where stalls/booths/stands offer merchandise for sale, but I don't think I'd include them in the definition of "stall" (in BE).  Again, just don't expect precision for such a broad concept as "stall". The Collins (BE) definition I cited is quite vague - probably deliberately so


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## Packard

They would need a permit and if the store that was behind it objected, that permit would not be given.  I suppose you could setup in front of a vacant storefront.  And the old adage "it is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission" may be the operative principle there.

I cannot imagine a storefront owner allowing another vendor to obscure his storefront with street merchandise.


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## JulianStuart

Getting a licence is typically required.  Here's how to do it for the one I recall from my youth.


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## Packard

All I could find was a vendors' permit for authorized street fairs in NYC.  It costs $10.00 per month.  I did not look to see what the requirements were, but this was for authorized street fairs, and not for a semi-permanent set up in front of a storefront.


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## owlman5

meijin said:


> So, when you don't know what to call it, is it OK to call it just "vendor's"?


_From a (street) vendor _seems likely to me, meijin. If I were pressed to describe the setup in the second photograph that you posted, I would probably call it _a lot of stuff laid out on a mat._


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## JulianStuart

Yet again, we are discussing words for concepts/phenomena that exist in one culture but don't exist in another, so names may be hard to come by.  The street markets and stalls (in BE) don't seem to be common in the US and the ones in the UK are generally tables or carts, rather than laid out on the ground, as in Meijin's (different culture) examples from Asia.  Outdoor displays, like the one in #19, are part of the shop/store and not "separate" stalls or stands.  The market I referred to has the stalls in the street so they are separated from the shop/storefront and are generally independent from them: as you walk along the pavement/sidewalk you will have the stores on one side of you and the stalls on the other.


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## meijin

JulianStuart said:


> You might well have a food truck (used generally to range from a bicycle-powered ice-cream vendor


Really? In the US it can be called a food truck even when it's bicycle-powered? Maybe only when it looks like a truck?

Would you call even this one a food truck? (I wonder if it's one type of "stall" in BrE)






The following ones, I think, are food carts. (The photo is actually from Food cart - Wikipedia)






Anyway, the following reply by heypresto suggests that "stall" is a generic term for any type of structure set up by a street vendor.



heypresto said:


> I would describe what is shown in the second photo as a stall. The fact that the goods are spread on the ground rather than on a table, or some boxes, is neither here nor there.



And owlman's reply below and the replies by other AmE speakers suggest that there's no generic term in AmE.



owlman5 said:


> If I were pressed to describe the setup in the second photograph that you posted, I would probably call it _a lot of stuff laid out on a mat._


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## JulianStuart

NOOO, I was giving the _range_ of things that would *not* be considered "stalls" but might be part of a market consisting mainly of stalls, NOT defining what a food truck is.  

Indeed, as usual, if the concept does not exist in another culture, it is unlikely that that culture has a name (or even consensus) for it.  You must have learnt this already from all your threads trying to find names of things that exist in Japan but don't exist or are very rare in other countries. So in the UK they are stalls, but that word/concept is rare/non-existent in the US.


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## meijin

JulianStuart said:


> NOOO, I was giving the _range_ of things that would *not* be considered "stalls" but might be part of a market consisting mainly of stalls, NOT defining what a food truck is.


So what is "used generally" to range from a bicycle-powered ice-cream vendor up to something the size of a bus with kitchen inside?   



JulianStuart said:


> Indeed, as usual, if the concept does not exist in another culture, it is unlikely that that culture has a name (or even consensus) for it. You must have learnt this already from all your threads trying to find names of things that exist in Japan


You are mistaken, Julian.  I never said we Japanese have a name for that type in the second picture in the OP. In fact, we don't. And my question was _So, when you don't know what to call it, is it OK to call it just "vendor's"_? I already assumed at that point that there's no name for that thing. So I was very surprised that it can be called a stall in BrE.


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## JulianStuart

meijin said:


> So what is "used generally" to range from a bicycle-powered ice-cream vendor up to something the size of a bus with kitchen inside?
> 
> 
> You are mistaken, Julian.  I never said we Japanese have a name for that type in the second picture in the OP. In fact, we don't. Any my question was _So, when you don't know what to call it, is it OK to call it just "vendor's"_? I already assumed at that point that there's no name for that thing. So I was very surprised that it can be called a stall in BrE.


I don't know because I don't think there is a simple name : food-selling vehicles??

I was making a general comment about trying to find words for things in one culture that don't exist in another, not a specific comment about a specific picture.  We are all often surprised by things we learn here - and that's a good thing (that we learn).


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## kentix

There are stalls at *a* permanent farmers markets in the U.S., They are usually all side by side in a big building or at least a semi-building. It might not have full walls.





These are stalls at the Georgia State Farmers Market but in the picture it's hard to tell where one vendor's ends and the next begins, but they are run separately.

Similar arrangements exist at craft fairs but are usually called booths. Unlike those in the picture above, they aren't permanent but are assembled and disassembled at the beginning and end. Some malls here that cater to immigrant communities (usually run by them) have a section or sections with stalls. It likely mirrors what they have back home. American malls built on the American model do not have that. As I said, our streets where I live do not have that. People don't sell things off blankets or temporary stands set up in front of other businesses. Here you buy things from stores, not from people hanging out on the sidewalk.

Edited: added "a" because this is only one example


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## Ponyprof

Street vendor or sidewalk vendor is a useful all purpose term that doesn't specify if the vendor uses a cart, table, stall, booth, or just throws a bunch of odd items scavenged from dumpsters onto an old blanket (as street people do in my city).


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## kentix

This is a roadside vegetable stand. If you don't have at least two side by side (and usually many more) I don't think it can be properly called a stall. A stall to me implies one of a set in a larger structure.


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## meijin

kentix said:


> This is a roadside vegetable stand. If you don't have at least two side by side (and usually many more) I don't think it can be properly called a stall. A stall to me implies ones of a set in a larger structure.


Thanks for the explanation in post #32 and this. So, if _stands_ with no sides were set up side by side, they can (or are more likely to be) called _stalls_, and when they have at least three sides (left, right, and back), they are probably more likely to be called _booths _in AmE?



Ponyprof said:


> Street vendor or sidewalk vendor is a useful all purpose term that doesn't specify if the vendor uses a cart, table, stall, booth, or just throws a bunch of odd items scavenged from dumpsters onto an old blanket (as street people do in my city).


But calling the place, not the person, a "street vendor" was rejected by both BrE and AmE speakers as follows.



heypresto said:


> I like shopping at street vendors.





Roxxxannne said:


> Postscript: I agree with heypresto: I'd say "I like buying things from ..." rather than "I like shopping at ..." in this context.



Also, I wonder if it's necessary to add the word "street" or "sidewalk" when talking about these people. I suppose it's necessary because "vendor" could mean just "seller"? For example, I think companies selling software are often referred to as "software vendors".


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## Ponyprof

meijin said:


> Thanks for the explanation in post #32 and this. So, if _stands_ with no sides were set up side by side, they can (or are more likely to be) called _stalls_, and when they have at least three sides (left, right, and back), they are probably more likely to be called _booths _in AmE?
> 
> 
> But calling the place, not the person, a "street vendor" was rejected by both BrE and AmE speakers as follows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I wonder if it's necessary to add the word "street" or "sidewalk" when talking about these people. I suppose it's necessary because "vendor" could mean just "seller"? For example, I think companies selling software are often referred to as "software vendors".


Yes. Vendor just means seller. In North America sidewalk or street vendors are rare to nonexistent. Obviously other places have different retail environments.


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## Roxxxannne

It's possible that I have a different idea of "street vendor" from other Americans, or that I just happen to have lived in places where people sell things from stands on the sidewalk, in a square or on a green (the last two are words we could have long discussions about).  Not only are there street vendors in New York City but there are also farmers' markets in small towns in coastal Maine, where people sell fruits, vegetables, cheese, etc. from temporary stands once a week.  In addition, as I said earlier, there are farmers' markets in NYC (including a large one in Union Square two or three times a week), and there are good-sized weekly farmers' markets in Chicago. All of these consist of 'stands.'

As far as _booth _is concerned, I suppose a booth is more likely than a stand to involve a structure of sorts consisting of a roof and fewer than four walls. On a toll highway, one pays at a tollbooth (although that is more and more automated these days with electronic devices over the highway and transponders in cars), and games where you try to win prizes at carnivals are in booths. For some reason, stands at 'flea markets' where people sell used goods and antiques are called 'booths' although the ones I've seen are just tables and racks with things displayed on them.


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## JulianStuart

In the case of farmers' markets and flea markets, produce stands and street vendors (using tables), I would (using my BE) use the word stall for their "surface for displaying goods" - as you note, usually not much more complex than a table. Often there will be a covering/awning etc to protect from weather, but sides and back would be rarer addtitions. A display actually on the street or sidewalk would be more likely bring the word "X-vendor" to mind but I'd not call that a stall.  I'd group booth together with kiosk as a small building (or room inset into a building), with an opening where the customer approaches and the person in the booth is behind a counter or window.


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## meijin

Thanks all for the help. I've learned a lot from this thread.


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## meijin

meijin said:


> I think I first need to understand what a _stall _means in BrE (when talking about street vendors).
> 
> I could be completely wrong, but maybe _stall_ is the generic term and _stand_, _booth_, _tent_, and maybe _food cart_ and even _food truck_ are different types of stalls?


I've just found the following in Market stall - Wikipedia.

_There are many types of stalls, from carts designed to be pulled by hand or cycles; makeshift structures like tents, or converted tow-caravans and motor vehicles._

At least the writer thinks even motor vehicles are a type of stall (if they sell street food etc.)
I don't know if (s)he speaks AmE or BrE though.


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## Roxxxannne

The original Wikipedia article, which looks a lot like the current one, was posted in 2007 by someone whose personal page includes an information 'sticker' (I'm not sure what the actual Wikipedia term is) stating that they support the EU. That doesn't mean they are not an American, but I suspect that the writer of the original article is a BrE speaker, given the use of 'tow-caravans,' which an American would call 'trailers,' in the original article.

For an American, a motor vehicle used like this for selling street food is called a 'food truck,' not a stall.


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## PaulQ

In #1, I would call the first a *stall*, and the second a *pitch*.

[OED *Pitch *(n). 17 a. *A place at which a person stations himself or herself*, or is stationed; a portion of ground selected by or allotted to a person, temporarily or permanently, *for *residence, camping, *business, or any other occupation*;... (b) *British a spot in a street or other public place occupied by a stallholder, street performer, beggar, etc.;* ...

1932   A. Bell Cherry Tree ii. 12   _I noticed that a newsvendor had left his pitch temporarily; his pile of papers lay on the wall._


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## meijin

That really helps. Thanks both.  (I didn't know a _pitch_ had that meaning!)


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## JulianStuart

meijin said:


> That really helps. Thanks both.  (I didn't know a _pitch_ had that meaning!)


Collins @WRF marks that meaing as Chiefly BRIT.  It seems to be a reasonable origin of the figurative and widely used expression "sales pitch" where someone presents something in the hope the listener will buy it.


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