# Rate mal



## guyper

*"Rate mal"

Is that how you tell someone to take a guess? And does the flavored particle mal have to be included?

Thank you
*


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## Doppelrahmstufe

Yes, and you do not need "mal".

If you adress somebody with "Du" then you can use:

"Rate mal"
"Rate"

If you adress somebody in the formal "Sie" form then you have to use:

"Raten Sie mal"
"Raten Sie"


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## Hutschi

"Rate mal" is a kind of an idiom. I think, "mal" is derived from "einmal".

"Rate mal!" sounds much more friendly. It is more an advice than an order as "Rate".

So I would say, "mal" has to be included in common context. 

Rate! - "You have to guess." - Extremely seldom used.
Rate mal! - "You have now the opportunity to guess!", sometimes, it does not even mean to guess but is only polemic.

Usually, "rate mal" is used in a larger sentence.
"Rate mal, was ich in der Hand habe!"


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## Icetrance

When you add "mal", you're just being more friendly and colloquial. It's like adding "just" in English. We do that to soften a command. It's like the difference between telling your students "Behave" or "Just behave." The latter can be said angrily but it still is not as forceful as saying saying "Behave."

To me, "rate (es) mal" is like saying "*just* guess."

It's like "Mach es mal" = Just do do it

You could put "rate mal einfach" (a bit more emphatic)

Adding "einfach" is more like "Just simply guess."

That's how I understand it.


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## elroy

I don’t agree with the comparison with “just.” “Mal” and “just” serve different functions.  


Hutschi said:


> Rate mal! - "You have now the opportunity to guess!", sometimes, it does not even mean to guess but is only polemic.


 What do you mean by “polemic”?


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## ayuda?

The words “mal”, “ja”, and “doch” in German speech
…Germans insert this word, for example, to make a command sound more polite. …

I totally understand icetrance’s use of* just* as a way of softening a command. It has helped me also to get the feel of *mal* in the command.


I think this is what was meant by *polemic*—something like refuting or contradicting
polemic
*1. *A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.


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## elroy

I can’t think of a single context in which “mal” corresponds to “just.”  Can you give any examples?

I know what “polemic” means.  I don’t see what it has to do with the topic here.


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## ayuda?

Can you explain first why you don't think just is to your liking. A little backup supporting your point would help since the use of* just* as a mitigating agent is apparent to both me and Icetrance.

Maybe if you ask Hutschi, he could explain something you might be missing?


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## elroy

ayuda? said:


> Can you explain first why you don't think just is to your liking.


 For example, "sag mal" and "just tell me" are totally different.

"Sag mal" is a nice, warm invitation for someone to share something.
"Just tell me" is pressuring and impatient. 


ayuda? said:


> Maybe if you ask Hutschi, he could explain something you might be missing?


 That's what I did in #5.


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## Schlabberlatz

Icetrance said:


> You could put "rate mal einfach" (a bit more emphatic)
> 
> Adding "einfach" is more like "Just simply guess."


"Rate mal einfach" is like "Guess just simply". It should be avoided.

But you could say:
"Rate einfach"
or
"Rate einfach mal" 

Alles klar? 


As to "polemic": Imagine a quarrel. Your opponent asks you a question. You think: That’s none of their business. Then you can retort by saying:
"Das geht dich/Sie nichts an!"
or an ironic
"Rate mal!" / "Raten Sie mal!"

(I don’t know if "polemic" is the right word for that.)

@Hutschi : Is this what you mean? (Or should I say: … what you meant more than ten years ago?  )


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## Hutschi

↑


> Rate mal! - "You have now the opportunity to guess!", sometimes, it does not even mean to guess but is only polemic.


 



elroy said:


> I don’t agree with the comparison with “just.” “Mal” and “just” serve different functions.
> What do you mean by “polemic”?



Hi, I did forget to answer.

"Rate mal!" can mean that the other should guess in reality.
It can also just be polemically, similar to polemic questions.

Example:

A: "Weißt du, wer heute zu Besuch kommt? Rate mal! Es ist der Opa."
Here it is just polemic.

A: "Weißt du, wer heute zu Besuch kommt?"
B: "Der Opa?"
A: "Du hast es erraten."

Here it is a real challenge/request. (I do not know the best English word for "Aufforderung" in this context.)


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## elroy

Hutschi said:


> A: "Weißt du, wer heute zu Besuch kommt? Rate mal! Es ist der Opa."
> Here it is just polemic.


 I'm afraid I don't get it.  Can you elaborate on what you mean?


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## Hutschi

"Rate mal" fordert normalerweise auf, etwas zu erraten.
Es kann aber auch polemisch verwendet werden. Dann löse ich das Rätsel gleich selbst.

It can either be a real riddle to be solved or just a polemic sentence, where nobody has to solve a riddle.

Similar to "Weißt du was? Ich komme morgen."  Here "Weißt du was?" is just a polemic question, not a real one.

Compare:  "Weißt du, wer heute zu Besuch kommt? Rate mal! Es ist der Opa."
It is not really a quest for information. "Rate mal" is only used as a polemic figure of speech.


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## elroy

That’s not what “polemic” means in English.  Are “polemic(al)” and “polemisch” false friends?


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## Hutschi

Maybe, but I used a dictionary.

What is "polemische Frage" in English?
May be rhetorical question?
In German there is also rhetorische Frage.


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## elroy

Ah!  You meant “rhetorical question”!   I don’t think that technically fits here, but now I know what you meant.


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## Hutschi

It is a rhetorical imperativ, than.


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## elroy

I don’t know if that’s a term.  To be clear, the terminological issue isn’t with “question” but with “rhetorical.”  A rhetorical question is one whose answer is obvious (at least that’s the only way I’ve ever encountered the term used); here, the answer is not obvious.  But I think this terminological issue is beyond the scope of this thread and should probably be handled in a different one. 


elroy said:


> For example, "sag mal" and "just tell me" are totally different.
> 
> "Sag mal" is a nice, warm invitation for someone to share something.
> "Just tell me" is pressuring and impatient.


 This is probably not the best example, because “sag mal” is pretty much used universally, even when the intention is not to be nice or warm (for example, “Sag mal, bist du bescheuert?”), so here’s another example:

“Besuch mich mal”: nice, warm, invitatory
“Just visit me”: bizarrely brusque, incomprehensibly impatient


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## ayuda?

elroy said:


> For example, "sag mal" and "just tell me" are totally different.
> "Sag mal" is a nice, warm invitation for someone to share something.
> "Just tell me" is pressuring and impatient.



●With* just* in something like a command, it is more a matter of *intonation *softening a command. Therefore, there is also this second use in English. And I think that was what Icetrance meant also. There is nothing harsh or bizarre about that.
[What I am saying is that it’s like saying *just* with a smile when using a  “command.” That’s my attempt, anyway to try to explain intonation verbally and in the written sense that you can get from context.

There seems to be the same sort of subtlety/ambiguity in German, depending on how *mal *is used; so things are not be so cut and dry.



elroy said:


> I know what “polemic” means. I don’t see what it has to do with the topic here.


*●*It has everything to do with the topic and is a point someone could miss.
Hutschi’s clarification was quite relevant and to the point. And that’s the idea I got what from what he gave as an explanation in Post # 11 for *polemic*—a rather subtle “command/challenge,” I would say, in that case.

*Just a non-native attempt at another example:*
Understanding "Mal" • r/German
*3.) [mal]* turn questions into rhetorical commands…[vs. making a command subtle—as opposed to Question *1.)]*
[Following quoted answer on this site to the question regarding *mal* and a rhetorical command. The native German speakers might check this to be sure of the different change and subtlety of the meaning:
*●*Wart’ mal kurz! vs. Wart' kurz!
    ●Erzähl mal, wie dein Urlaub war!
*Quote from site:*
In these sentences "mal" softens the tone. The* first* example is pretty casual in the first place because of the _Wart'_. I can't really explain why it’s put in there. It feels less demanding but the difference is almost nonexistent. **Depending on the intonation the* second*  [actually 3.) above] might sound more like an order.


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## Icetrance

ayuda? said:


> The words “mal”, “ja”, and “doch” in German speech
> …Germans insert this word, for example, to make a command sound more polite. …
> 
> I totally understand icetrance’s use of* just* as a way of softening a command. It has helped me also to get the feel of *mal* in the command.
> 
> 
> I think this is what was meant by *polemic*—something like refuting or contradicting
> polemic
> *1. *A controversial argument, especially one refuting or attacking a specific opinion or doctrine.



Thank you for understanding my point of view.  Much appreciated. I agree with your assessments: spot-on.


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## Icetrance

The Nike slogan "_Just do it_", couldn't you just say "_Mach es mal"_?

I think "Mach es einfach" is okay, too.

Danke schön!


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## Hutschi

I think too, this is ok.
But I would usually say:
"Mach's doch einfach!"

PS:
Or shorter: "Mach's einfach!" ("Es" of your version is shortend here.)


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## Schlabberlatz

Icetrance said:


> The Nike slogan "_Just do it_", couldn't you just say "_Mach es mal"_?


It’s possible, but I don’t think it’s a very idiomatic translation.


Icetrance said:


> "Mach es einfach"


… is way more idiomatic. You could also say "Los, mach es (einfach)" – "Come on, (just) do it".


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## Icetrance

Thank you, Hutschi and Schlabberlatz!  Ich stimme euch völlig zu.

_Mach es mal_ = more conversational; not as "slogan-like" for sure.


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## Kajjo

Icetrance said:


> _Mach es mal_ = more conversational; not as "slogan-like" for sure.


Well, it has another meaning and not just register. "Mach es mal" sounds more like "try it" than like "just do it" =  "Mach es einfach!".


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## anahiseri

Hutschi said:


> "Rate mal" fordert normalerweise auf, etwas zu erraten.
> Es kann aber auch polemisch verwendet werden. Dann löse ich das Rätsel gleich selbst.


das nenne ich nicht polemisch, sondern *ironisch.*
Man möchte ausdrücken, dass es nichts zu raten gibt; man weiss es.


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## anahiseri

übrigens für, Just do it
würde ich sagen *tu es einfach!
*


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## Perseas

Da wir gerade davon sprechen, ist bei "however" (En-De Wörterbuch) zu sehen, dass "*Just do it*!" als "*Mach es aber*!" übersetzt wird.

_You can do it however you want to. Just do it! 
Du kannst es machen wie es dir gefällt. Mach es aber! _
however - Wörterbuch Englisch-Deutsch - WordReference.com


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## Sowka

Ja, in diesem spezifischen Kontext bedeuten "just" und "aber": "Auf jeden Fall". Das funktioniert aber nur, weil der erste Satz davor steht. Ich interpretiere dies so: "Wie auch immer du es tust -- sorg dafür, *dass* du es tust!"


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