# يُمحَى ظلام الليل



## Abu Rashid

Would this be correctly translated as 'erasing the darkness of night'?


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## shafaq

To me; "removing ..." is more sensible.


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## cherine

The verb محا - يمحو - محوًا means "to erase", "to delete", and sometimes it also means "to wipe out".
It can of course be translated with "removing", according to the best equivalent in English in the given context.


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## shafaq

Thank you cherine ! It's used in Turkish also as "mahvetmek(to make mahv) and "imha etmek(to make imha امحاء ).
.
If it was convenient; I always rake around for a more sensible one instead of literal; and some times find it up..


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## Abu Rashid

Why has the title of the thread been changed?


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## Josh_

I actually like "erasing the darkness of night" or better yet "obliterating darkness of night." That is a very powerful and evocative image to me. 

The sentence as is -- يمحو ظلامَ الليلِ -- would most correctly be translated as "he/it erases/obliterates the darkness of night." If you are more interested in "erasing/obliterating the darkness of night" that would most probably be" محْو ظلام الليل, using the maSdar.



Abu Rashid said:


> Why has the title of the thread been changed?


Probably because, as per your attempted translation, you were interested in the active form, which, in the present, is conjugated يمحو instead of يمحى. If you were interested in teh passive form, however, it would be conjugated يُمحَى. The sentence would then be يُمحَى ظلامُ الليلِ and would mean "The darkness of night is erased/obliterated."


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## Abu Rashid

It is from a nasheed, so I don't really have license to change it 

It's يمحى ظلام الليل

as found here



> I actually like "erasing the darkness of night" or better yet "obliterating darkness of night."



I think in English erasing sounds the best, just wanted to make sure that's the proper meaning in Arabic, as I've never come across this verb before. Obliterating might be a little too strong here. Would 'wiping away' also be appropriate? or it's too far from the actual Arabic meaning?



> Probably because, as per your attempted translation, you were interested in the active form



So يمحى is the passive form? "The darkness of night is erased"?


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## Josh_

Abu Rashid said:


> It is from a nasheed, so I don't really have license to change it
> 
> It's يمحى ظلام الليل
> 
> as found here


Ahh, interesting.  So the moderator who changed it jumped the gun a little bit, or as I said above, he/she could have just been influenced by your English translation.



> I think in English erasing sounds the best, just wanted to make sure that's the proper meaning in Arabic, as I've never come across this verb before. Obliterating might be a little too strong here. Would 'wiping away' also be appropriate? or it's too far from the actual Arabic meaning?


I think that would work as well.  I kind of like the visual image evoked by the phrase "wiping away the darkness of night," but "erasing the darkness of night" is nice as well.



> So يمحى is the passive form? "The darkness of night is erased"?


يُمحَى (yumHa) is the passive of the فَعَلَ form, but reading the first few verses of the نشيد (assuming I understood it correctly) it could be either يمحّي (yumaHHi) or يُمحي (yumHi, assuming the أفعل form is used -- it does not appear in the Hans Wehr) where هو (الإسلام)ـ is the subject, thus it would mean "_It _(_Islam) erases/wipes away the darkness of night_."  

Do you know if it was written by an Egyptian? That could explain why it is يمحى and not يمحي (assuming the latter is what is intended). I love Egypt, Egyptians, and the Egyptian dialect, but one thing that does not jive with me is their custom of writing word final الياء as ى (without the dots) and not ي, because it causes confusion.


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## cherine

Abu Rashid said:


> Why has the title of the thread been changed?


Sorry about the confusion caused, Abu Rashid, I only thought about "correction" the active present form of the verb. I think I was influenced by our Egyptian custom in writing the final yaa2 without dots, and thought your got the verb wrong "yam7i" wich is incorrect. Now that I understood that it's about the passive verb "yum7aa", I changed it back.
Sorry again.


Abu Rashid said:


> I think in English erasing sounds the best, just wanted to make sure that's the proper meaning in Arabic, as I've never come across this verb before. Obliterating might be a little too strong here. Would 'wiping away' also be appropriate? or it's too far from the actual Arabic meaning?


It's not far at all. Actually I suggested the same verb (with a different preposition). The expression محو الظلام is very common in Arabic.


Josh_ said:


> يُمحَى (yumHa) is the passive of the فَعَلَ form, but reading the first few verses of the نشيد (assuming I understood it correctly) it could be either يمحّي (yumaHHi) or يُمحي (yumHi, assuming the أفعل form is used -- it does not appear in the Hans Wehr) where هو (الإسلام)ـ is the subject, thus it would mean "_It _(_Islam) erases/wipes away the darkness of night_."


Sorry Josh, but yumaHHi is very new to me, I think it's incorrect. Same for yumHi. I never saw the root م-ح-و with the wazn أفعل before. The verb is محا - يمحو - مَحْوًا.

By the way, we pronounce the verb in Egypt as yem7i يمحي but the fuS7a form is يمحو.


> I love Egypt, Egyptians, and the Egyptian dialect, but one thing that does not jive with me is their custom of writing word final الياء as ى (without the dots) and not ي, because it causes confusion.


Why! It doesn't cause us any confusion.


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## Xence

Josh_ said:


> it could be either يمحّي (yumaHHi)


 
With the shadda on the م it actually makes sense: يمّحي _yammaHii_ (according to the ينفعل form)


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## Abu Rashid

cherine,



> Sorry about the confusion caused, Abu Rashid, I only thought about "correction" the active present form of the verb



No problem at all, was just beginning to wonder whether I typed it correctly or not.



> It's not far at all. Actually I suggested the same verb (with a different preposition).



So "the darkness of night is wiped away" could be a valid translation?


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## Abu Rashid

Josh,



> Do you know if it was written by an Egyptian? That could explain why it is يمحى and not يمحي (assuming the latter is what is intended). I love Egypt, Egyptians, and the Egyptian dialect, but one thing that does not jive with me is their custom of writing word final الياء as ى (without the dots) and not ي, because it causes confusion



Don't know if it was written by an Egyptian, but it's definitely yum7aa (that's how it's sung anyway). I know what you mean about the confusion caused by those two little dots, or lack thereof. It has confused me many times in Egypt, but I guess for Arabs it wouldn't be so bad, because they already know the vast majority of written words, so it would be plainly obvious to them. Kind of like learning to read without tashkeel.


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## Josh_

cherine said:


> Sorry Josh, but yumaHHi is very new to me, I think it's incorrect. Same for yumHi. I never saw the root م-ح-و with the wazn أفعل before. The verb is محا - يمحو - مَحْوًا.
> 
> By the way, we pronounce the verb in Egypt as yem7i يمحي but the fuS7a form is يمحو.


Thanks for the clarification, Cherine.  

Yes, of course, I realize how it is pronounced in Egyptian, but the text did not appear to be written in Egyptian (although reading further there are other colloquial structures in the text), and so I did not think to mention that.



> Why! I don't cause us any confusion.


Yes, you are one of the few Egyptians who write "_the proper way_."

I should have clarified my comment about the confusion thing.  Yes, in the vast majority of cases it is obvious which word is intended (even to a non-native like me), but there are times in which it can cause confusion, and even native speakers may have to do a double take just to be sure.  I think there are even a few threads here on the forum in which this was discussed.


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## cherine

Xence said:


> With the shadda on the م it actually makes sense: يمّحي _yammaHii_ (according to the ينفعل form)


Yes, I was going to say that but hesitated because I wasn't sure wether I should put it يَنْمَحي or يَمَّحي .


Abu Rashid said:


> cherine,
> No problem at all, was just beginning to wonder whether I typed it correctly or not.


 sorry again about the confusion.


> So "the darkness of night is wiped away" could be a valid translation?


Yes. But of course, in this context -if I'm not mistaken- we should say "*will be* wiped away".


Josh_ said:


> Yes, of course, I realize how it is pronounced in Egyptian, but the text did not appear to be written in Egyptian (although reading further there are other colloquial structures in the text), and so I did not think to mention that.


Yes, I agree that the text isn't Egyptian. I only put the Egyptian pronounciation for the case it was influencing your transliteration of the verb in fuS7a.


> Yes, you are one of the few Egyptians who write "_the proper way_."


Well, I only do it in this forum.


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## Xence

cherine said:


> Yes, I was going to say that but hesitated because I wasn't sure wether I should put it يَنْمَحي or يَمَّحي .


Rest assured, cherine, whatever could have been your choice, you wouldn't be wrong ! 

From Lissan al-Arab:


> وامَّحى الشيءُ يَمَّحِي امِّحاءً، انْفَعَلَ، وكذلك امتَحى إِذا ذهب أَثرُه، وكره بعضهم امْتَحى، والأَجود امَّحى، والأَصل فيه انْمَحى، وأَما امْتَحى فلغة رديئة


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## cherine

Thanks Xence


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