# 忘れずに下さい



## hmoulding

I'm reading "In a Grove", and one sentence there (from the bandit's confession) is

二十三合目にーどうかそれを忘れずに下さい.

"Twenty-three strokes - please don't forget that."

My question is about the -ず suffix. Except for this story, I've never come across it before, and I don't know how it works. Is it a standard verb form? Is it limited to certain verbs only? Is it regular? In what way does it differ from the usual negative form?　Would 忘れないで下さい mean about the same thing?
-- 
ヘルゲ


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## Wishfull

Hi.

I think this Japanese was poorly written.
忘れずにいて下さい　is natural.
I can't believe 忘れずに下さい was written/spoken by natives.


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## hmoulding

The book does have a few typos. Don't know if this is one of them. However, I did listen to the sound file for this story, and that's what the reader there says. He's supposed to be a professional Japanese actor. 

Moderator note: No links to audio files without prior moderator approval, please.

The passage in question is at time point 9:55. Is it possible that a low class character like a raping murdering bandit would talk like that? 

In any event, why do you say 忘れずに下さい is bad? Is it because 下さい usually follows the -て form?
-- 
ヘルゲ


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## Ocham

I carefully listened to the tape. The narrator really said 忘れずに下さい. 
This way of expression is not natural as modern Japanese, but I think 
the narration is faiful to the original (Akutagawa Ryunosuke's "In A 
Grove" 1915). It, of course, means 忘れないでください, "Keep it in mind."


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## Wishfull

Hi.
I listened to the MP3 and read "藪の中”.
芥川龍之介　wrote "忘れずに下さい” for sure.

So It was written by a native who is one of the most famous writers.

Yet I think it is odd. Old usage?? I don't know.
A low class character like a raping murdering　said ungrammatical speech? I don't know, because rest of his speech was not bad at all. He spoke rather polite Japanese.

Why am I think that is bad? I can't explain logically, but my try;

御銘記下さい。　　銘記下さい
銘記おき下さい。
覚えて下さい。　but 覚えておいて下さい。is better.
御記録下さい。　
記録おき下さい。OK
御記入下さい。OK
記入して下さい。OK
忘れずにいて下さい。OK
御免下さい。OK

I think　polite request from of "下さい”　is natural, when
1.御＋noun＋下さい
２．noun＋おき＋下さい。
３．～～いて下さい。
４．～～して下さい。
5. ~~おいて下さい。
(2-5 are what you called "～てform")

I can't imagine other natural usage now. Maybe other natives could respond.


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## Aoyama

> My question is about the -ず suffix.


to go back to the initial (simple) question :


> It (...) means 忘れないでください, "Keep it in mind."


or rather "don't forget", because the ending "zu" is a negative ending equivalent to "nai" or "masen".
_Tabezu ni kaerimashita _: I left without eating
_Sake wo nomazu ni ... _: without drinking sake/alcohol
_matazu ni_  : without waiting
_motazuni   :_ without bringing/carrying
you will notice that "zu" is followed by "ni", so very often the usage is "verb+zu ni".
You will also notice some vocalic change in some given verbs, which does not occur when using "nai/masen".


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## rukiak

hmoulding said:


> I'm reading "In a Grove", and one sentence there (from the bandit's confession) is
> 
> 二十三合目にーどうかそれを忘れずに下さい.
> 
> "Twenty-three strokes - please don't forget that."
> 
> My question is about the -ず suffix. Except for this story, I've never come across it before, and I don't know how it works. Is it a standard verb form? Is it limited to certain verbs only? Is it regular? In what way does it differ from the usual negative form?　Would 忘れないで下さい mean about the same thing?
> --
> ヘルゲ


Well, I think, on the whole, the controversial and essential piont might be "に", but it's not the case now...

Anyway, the meaning of ず is same as the one of ない. 
It works as with same structure as ない at times, at other times works differently.
For example, 忘れず*に* vs 忘れない*で* (don't forget), ー*せ*ず*に* vs ー*し*ない*で* (don't do ー). The former set has different particles,  the latter set has differences in conjugation and particle.   

忘れずに下さい doesn't sound natural for me. There seems to be some literary works that this kind of expression is used. But recentry they would rather use the expression of "忘れないで下さい", or "忘れずにお願いします" in case you use the term ず.


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## Aoyama

> "忘れずにお願いします"


absolutely, to be prefered to 忘れずに下さい, unusual.
"忘れないで下さい" being the "normal" form.


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## rukiak

Aoyama said:


> absolutely, to be prefered to 忘れずに下さい, unusual.
> "忘れないで下さい" being the "normal" form.



Strictly speaking, (I don't like to stretch the problem...but just a word of explanation...), there is a little difference between 忘れないでください and 忘れずにお願いします/忘れずに下さい.
忘れないでください doesn't contain a けんじょうご but a ていねいご. And when you order or instruct something to a someone superior, ていねいご　is not enough.
On the contrary, 忘れずにお願いします/忘れずに下さい seems contain a word with a function like けんじょうご (not sure but likely), "に". The literature 藪の中 has the character who says the line, he is a infamous thief and the suspect, he is talking to an officer, in this situation, he should use けんじょうご in Japanese.  ...But anyway the instruction 忘れずに下さい/忘れずにお願いします/忘れないでください is rude in this situation (;to a someone superior) because the decision whether you keep it in mind or judge it insignificant is the officer's personal or technical matter, so all three expression are lacking politeness.
Politeness is at least as much important as fluency, in Japan, I think.
That's all I noticed.


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## Aoyama

The problem dealt with above concerns use of "polite words" and "polite forms".
But the core of the question is to know whether a sentence like 
忘れずに下さい 
is correct (or standard) Japanese, as well as 
忘れずにお願いします/忘れないでください (leaving apart the problem of the "level of politeness").
I say (once more) that 忘れずに下さい is not standard Japanese.


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## rukiak

To Aoyama
Sorry for having bothered you by quoting your post and developping an argument.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I just wondered that hmoulding may possibly want to get the picture widely. Frankly, it is difficult for me to speculate the range in which hmoulding is questioning because the issue he picked up is a literature in 1920's. 
I thought he asks more usage of "ず" than the opinion whether the whole expression is natural for our daily use or not.

The expression is idiomatic as a literature at that age, and probably as a literature even in our time. I mean, even if どうかそれを忘れずに下さい is not natural, a similar expression could be used by modern authors.  
Besides, even though 忘れずに下さい sounds bizarre for daily use, the expression "ずに" is still idiomatic, especcially in the situation politeness is required...for example, used in public informations from public authorities (public servants), or used when people talk to their boss/customers. 

Here is examples, for those cases, ーないで下さい is not normal form, ずに-form（or other けんじょう-forms） is suitable.
ーはがきは国民年金窓口に置いてあります。届出が遅れると各種通知書がお手元に届かないことがありますので、忘れ_ずにお願いします_。
ー現地9時集合ですので、遅れ_ずにお願いします。_


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## hmoulding

Thanks to everyone for their comments. I think I now have a little understanding of the -ず suffix and how it might work. 
-- 
ヘルゲ


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