# Why emb- and not enb-, and ent- and not emt- in French?



## Riverby

In English, 
  . words may begin with *emb* but not *enb*
  . words may begin with *ent* but not *emt*.
  Presumably, this is for reasons of pronunciation. 

  In French, surprisingly, the same rule seems to hold, even though the initial vowel is nasal, so that the /n/ and /m/ are not pronounced. For example
  emballer /ɑ̃ bale/ 
  entamer /ɑ̃ tame/

  So why doesn't French have words beginning enb- or emt- ? Could it relate to historical changes in pronunciation?


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## effeundici

Don't know if it is interesting for you but Italian has the same rule.

*n *and *m *are pronounced very clearly, though.


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## Abu Rashid

In Arabic the consonant cluster 'nb' (ie. when there's no vowel between the 'n' and 'b') will always be pronounced as 'mb'.

eg. the word nabi (prophet) when in plural form should be anbiya, but is pronounced ambiya.

I assume this is probably a related phenomena.


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## CapnPrep

Riverby said:


> So why doesn't French have words beginning enb- or emt- ? Could it relate to historical changes in pronunciation?


Yes. These nasal consonants were still pronounced (and distinguished) in French up until the 17th century. 

Note that most English words beginning with _en-_ (or _em-_) actually came from French in the first place. And the rule that you refer to is also relatively recent. According to the OED (s.v. _en-_, prefix¹): "This rule was not fully established in spelling before the 17th c.; in ME., as in OF. and OSp., _enb-_, _enp-_ are more frequent than _emb-_, _emp-_, though the latter may perhaps represent what was the actual pronunciation."

On the other hand, the orthographic convention was already present in Latin (e.g. _in_ + _bibo_ → _imbibo_ "imbibe", _in_ + _porto_ → _importo_ "import") so it isn't too surprising that the modern languages also eventually adopted it.


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## swift

Et le français n'est pas la seule langue néolatine présentant ce phénomène : comme il a été dit par effeundici, la règle du _m_ devant _p _ou _b_ est également appliquée en italien ; et en espagnol, tous les enfants apprennent à l'école : _Antes de p y b, con m escribiré, y nunca lo olvidaré_. Il me semble avoir lu quelque part que cette règle n'était pas espagnole à l'origine, mais qu'on a suivi l'exemple français.

Une autre curiosité en espagnol : les mots contentant env-, groupe prononcé [emb].


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## Riverby

Thanks everyone. I found all your contributions very interesting. Thanks especially CapnPrep on the shift in French pronunciation.


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## Serafín33

swift said:


> Une autre curiosité en espagnol : les mots contentant env-, groupe prononcé [emb].


Or any -nv- in general: invierno [im.ˈbjɛɾ.no̞].


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## swift

Tu as raison. Je me suis laissé guider par le titre de cette discussion, qui porte sur "emb".


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## Hulalessar

It is a case of assimilation to the place of articulation. In many languages nasal consonants when followed by plosives assimilate to the place of articulation of the plosive. /m/ and /b/ are both bilabial and /n/ and /d/ dental/alveolar. Accordingly /m/ + /d/ > /n/ + /d/ and /n/ + /b/ > /m/ + /b/. Sometimes the changes are not represented in writing.

Other changes occur that may not be represented in writing at all e.g. in both English and Spanish /n/ > /ŋ/ before /k/, both /ŋ/ and /k/ being velar.


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## Awwal12

Another example is Japanese: syllabic "n" followed by a syllable beginning in "b" (as well as in "p" or "m") transforms phonetically into "m".
P.S.: The same process can be traced in some old loanwords in Russian, for instance Turk. "İstanbul" -> Rus. "Стамбул" ("Stambul").


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## Alxmrphi

Hulalessar said:


> Other changes occur that may not be represented in writing at all e.g. in both English and Spanish /n/ > /ŋ/ before /k/, both /ŋ/ and /k/ being velar.



Don't forget mr /g/ as well!


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## JuanEscritor

Riverby said:


> In English,
> . words may begin with *emb* but not *enb*
> . words may begin with *ent* but not *emt*.
> Presumably, this is for reasons of pronunciation.
> 
> In French, surprisingly, the same rule seems to hold, even though the initial vowel is nasal, so that the /n/ and /m/ are not pronounced. For example
> emballer /ɑ̃ bale/
> entamer /ɑ̃ tame/
> 
> So why doesn't French have words beginning enb- or emt- ? Could it relate to historical changes in pronunciation?



Interestingly, in running speech, many English speakers (going against the standard) do not produce the [n] or [m] in these situations, but instead simply nasalize the vowel and move right to the stop (as is the standard rule in French).

‹ entertain › → [ ɛ̰tɚtḛn ]
‹ embalm › → [ ɛ̰bɔm ]

I would say what you're seeing is, as others have said, an orthographical convention more than anything.  What is standard pronunciation in French is not standard in English; English maintains the spelling difference, likely, by reason that it represents a standard pronunciation, while French does so out of pure historical reasons, having no pronunciation-based standard off of which to base this orthographical curiosity. 

JE


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## XiaoRoel

En las lenguas hispánicas, como en latín, la /b/ y la /p/ contagian su labialidad a la nasal, hecho que representa la escritura usando el grafema que representa la labial nasal /m/ y no la dental nasal /n/ que es la normal ante las dentales /d/ y /t/. Ante /k/ y /g/ la nasal se pronuncia gutural [ŋ] pero no tiene representación escrita (sólo el gallego la representa, pero no ante oclusiva, sino ante vocal, con el dígrafo *nh* en palabras como _unha_, _algunha_, _ningunha_ y cuando se representa una *e paragógica* tras nasal, pronunciada [ŋ] como en _corazonhe_).


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## swift

Xiao:

¿Y a partir de qué momento se uniformizó la ortografía con 'm' antes de 'p' y 'b'?


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## Serafín33

Alxmrphi said:


> Don't forget mr /g/ as well!


Neither before /x/, in the case of Spanish.


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## XiaoRoel

Hasta la *Academia* no se regulariza, pero los escritos *latinistas y letrados* solían ostentar *eme* ante *oclusiva o fricativa labial*.


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