# the daughter of a king - iDafa/iDaafa الإضافة



## Mansoor010

Hi guys,

I have a question about the إضافة which I hope someone can help with. I've looked up the topic in a couple of student and reference grammars but no avail. As I understand the issue, "the first term in the construct has neither the definite article nor nunation because it is defined through the second term, which determines the definiteness or indefiniteness of the entire phrase" (Ryding 2005, 211). If we focus on Wright's presentation (Vol II, 225 $22) he gives the following example:

1. بنتُ ملكٍ _*A*_ daughter of _*a*_ king
2. بنتُ الملكِ _*The*_ daughter of _*the*_ king

Now, my question is with respect to formulating the phrases where the annexed and annexing nouns disagree in definiteness. Wrights says that, "if we wish the first noun to remain indefinite, whilst the second is definite, we must substitute for the annexation the construction with the preposition لِ". His example is:

3. بنتٌ للملكِ _*A*_ daughter of _*the*_ king

What Wright doesn't address is how one would express the phrase, "_*The*_ daughter of *a* king" where the first noun is definite and the second indefinite (a reverse of construction 3). 

My first assumption is that maybe this isn't good English? But, I imagine the following kind of sentence to be legitimate: "Once long ago there lived the daughter of a king." I can't tell whether it would make any difference in English to say, "Once long ago there lived a daughter of a king" keeping the first noun indefinite. But, nonetheless, I assume the first option is still legitimate. In which case, how does one go about saying, in Arabic, "_*the *x _of _*a*_ _y_"? Is it the reverse of construction 3:

البنتُ لِملكٍ

Help would be appreciated.


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## analeeh

I think in most cases this would simply be بنت ملك.


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## Mansoor010

Thanks for your response Analeeh. So you mean that you'd use the indefinite اضافة but choose whether to translate as "a daughter of a king" or "the daughter of a king"?


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## Drink

I would say that بنت الملك could be translated as any of of "the daughter of the king", "a daughter of the king", or "the daughter of a king", and that بنت ملك could be translated as any of "a daughter of the king", "the daughter of a king", or "a daughter of a king".


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## analeeh

Yes. I don't want to go into too much long analytical detail, but I would agree with Drink and add that Arabic definiteness does not necessarily line up with English definiteness, especially when we're talking about the use of definiteness in establishing topics/controlling the flow of information in storytelling, etc.


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## apricots

If you consider that "_the daughter of a king_" is the same as saying _"a king's daughter"_ then it follows that بنت ملك is the correct translation.


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## Ibn Nacer

For me بنت الملك means : the daughter of the king (la fille du roi).

Because in Arabic, the two words are definite.


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## Drink

^But keep in mind that definiteness in French is used differently than definiteness in English.


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## Ibn Nacer

^Yes it is possible, I am not an English speaker.

If you translate by "the daughter of a king" my impression is that you talk about any king, not of a particular king.

In french if you say "la fille d'un roi"  we do not know what King you speak, it may be any king.


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## Drink

^What you say is true out of context, but not necessarily always true in context.


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## elroy

Drink said:


> I would say that بنت الملك could be translated as any of of "the daughter of the king" , "a daughter of the king" , or "the daughter of a king" , and that بنت ملك could be translated as any of "a daughter of the king" , "the daughter of a king" , or "a daughter of a king" .


 بنت الملك is *only* "the daughter of the king."
بنت ملك is either "a daughter of a king" or "the daughter of a king" (which are arguably the same thing).

"a daughter of the king" = بنت للملك or (more idiomatically) إحدى بنات الملك


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## Drink

^You got me thinking a little more about English grammar. I realized a few things that I had never realized before:

1. If you introduce "a daughter of a king" and refer to her again later, it will always be "the daughter of the king", even though the king himself has not been introduced and remains unknown.
2. You're right that in most cases "a daughter of a king" is the same as "the daughter of a king", but not always:
a. It would be a little strange to say "The daughter of a king said to her sister" (you would have to say "A daughter of a king ..."), even though it's totally fine to say "I met the daughter of a king and she told me about her sister" (but "a" would work equally well).
b. You cannot say "an only daughter of a king", but only "the only daughter of a king", even though it's totally fine to say "I met a daughter of a king and she has no siblings" (but "the" would work equally well).​
I'm wondering how each of the examples in 2a and 2b would be rendered in Arabic by a native speaker.


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## Ectab

I did not read the other answers but I am sure there is no way to make the first noun definite and the second indefinite
البنت لملك
this would mean "The girl is of\for a king" not the girl of a king!
why?
Well, Arabic do not have a preposition equal to English OF we use cases.
then the definiteness or indefiniteness of a noun in Al-idaafah depends on the Mudaaf ilaih 

A king's daughter
in English it would be wrong to say:
A king's the daughter
even though in English we can say
The daughter of a king
but as I mentioned Arabic has not preposition similar to English's OF


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## Mansoor010

A lot of interesting and useful responses. I think we can separate the discussion into two parts:

1. How would you translate "*The* daughter of *a* king" outside of context. I think this is what elroy's post aims at and it is more to the heart of my question. Are we to assume that, context aside, this phrase is _by and large_ synonymous with "*a *daughter of *a* king" and thus translated the same: بنت ملك

2. If we consider the phrase "*the* daughter of *a *king" inside different narrative contexts in English use then you have to appreciate the point's that Drink brought up. I wonder whether the switch from indefinite to definite in Drink's example 1 would be the same in Arabic?

The assumption so far, i think, is that "the daughter of a king" be rendered the same as "a daughter of king" when considered outside of contexts that might affect this basic equivalence.


analeeh said:


> Yes. I don't want to go into too much long analytical detail, but I would agree with Drink and add that Arabic definiteness does not necessarily line up with English definiteness, especially when we're talking about the use of definiteness in establishing topics/controlling the flow of information in storytelling, etc.



Please do provide more detail if you have the time. I would really like to get a grip on this in as much detail as possible.


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## Tovlev

[Moderator's Note: Moved to an appropriate previous thread]
I have a question! I know im years late. sorry!

I understand the structure of Idhafa, there are some things I would like to fully understand. Using a basic example, could some one help me please

How would you translate the following

The car of a boy

A car of the boy

Thanks


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## Ghabi

Hello. "A car of the boy" would be سيارة للولد. But I don't know what "the car of a boy" means.


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## elroy

Ghabi said:


> I don't know what "the car of a boy" means.


 It's not idiomatic in modern English.   The structure works well with other nouns -- for example, "the start of a movie," which would be بداية فيلم. 


Ghabi said:


> "A car of the boy" would be سيارة للولد.


 This one is not idiomatic in modern English, either.  It should be "a car of the boy*'s*."  The most idiomatic equivalent in Arabic is إحدى سيارات الولد.  I can't think of a context in which سيارة للولد would work; it generally means "a car *for* the boy."


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## Abu Talha

This has been discussed a few times before and the summary is that "the X of a Y" is often expressed in Arabic with the indefinite iDaafah, so سيارة ولد can mean "*the* car of a boy" even though سيارة is indefinite. It's often useful to think of it as "a boy's car" without using "of".


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