# Hobson's choice



## KIKUYA

cuchuflete said:


> I have no personal objection to Bush traveling to other nations, where local people will be pleased to
> express their opinions about his policies. I have concerns about his return to the US. If he does come back,
> we know what to expect. If he doesn't, we can expect Mr Cheney. Is that what's called a Hobson's choice?


 
What does "a Hobson's choice" mean?.


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## cuchuflete

WordNet Dictionary (V3.0):  *Hobson's choice* (the choice of taking what is offered or nothing at all)

Online Etymology Dictionary:   
English university slang, supposedly from Thomas Hobson (c.1544-1631), Cambridge stable manager who let horses and gave customers a choice of the horse next in line or none at all. Phrase popularized by Milton, c.1660.


The common sense of the term is that one has two unattractive choices--something you don't want, or nothing at all, which is something else you do not want!


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## padredeocho

KIKUYA said:


> What does "a Hobson's choice" mean?.


This is a phrase that you do not want to use with the ordinary man because he will have no idea what you are talking about.

[Jack's lawyer has advised him to plead guilty in order to get a lighter sentence, but Jack doesn't want to plead guilty because he is innocent.]
John:  Yeah, but if a jury convicts you, you'll go down on both charges.  Besides, her friends are going to lie by saying that you cut her with the knife, even though we both know she cut herself after she called the cops.
Jack:  Yeah, Hobson's choice.  I guess I'll take the deal offer and just move on.  < ---- >

< Edited to comply with 4-sentence limit on quotation (Rule 4). Cagey, moderator >


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## Roddyboy55

The term Hobson's choice is widely understood in the UK (BE).

There is a stage play of the same name which outlines the lack of life choices for the daughter of a man called Hobson.
Google says the play was written by Harold Brighouse in the 1880s, and made into a film by David Lean in 1954.

Rod


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## cuchuflete

I disagree with padredeocho.  The expression is quite well known.  It shows up in a google search with more than 300 thousand citations.  It was famously used to describe Henry Ford's declaration about the Model-T Ford automobile:  You may have it in any color you want so long as it's black.


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## pieanne

LOL!

It may be slightly off-topic, but what's the name of the law that says that when a buttered piece of toast falls, the buttered side will be on the ground?


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## JamesM

pieanne said:


> LOL!
> 
> It may be slightly off-topic, but what's the name of the law that says that when a buttered piece of toast falls, the buttered side will be on the ground?


 
We call that Murphy's Law.  

I agree with Cuchuflete regarding the common understanding of Hobson's Choice.  You might run into some people who were not familiar with it, but many would.


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## pieanne

Thank you, JamesM


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## cuchuflete

pieanne said:


> It may be slightly off-topic, but what's the name of the law that says that when a buttered piece of toast falls, the buttered side will be on the ground?



Let's bring it back on topic:  You request a piece of toast without butter.  You are told that every piece of toast is buttered.  You have a Hobson's choice—go without any toast at all, or take what is on offer.


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## pieanne

cuchuflete said:


> Let's bring it back on topic: You request a piece of toast without butter. You are told that every piece of toast is buttered. You have a Hobson's choice—go without any toast at all, or take what is on offer.


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## Alxmrphi

> The term Hobson's choice is widely understood in the UK (BE).



I didn't know it! - learnt something new here


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## KIKUYA

*Thanks everybody* for answering my question so quick and efficently. That was my first quiry and I am really impressed, especially with Cuchuflete's erudition.


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## KDH

Hobson's choice _<-----Topic added to post by moderator (Florentia52)----->_

Is this idiom common in today's English to mean a "take it or leave it" choice? For example, is it natural to say "I was given a Hobson's choice between taking the job and leaving her.


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## Florentia52

I don't think most native English speakers would know what a Hobson's choice was.


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## Myridon

No, it is not used in everyday speech.  I would not use an article with it if I were to use it.


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## Franco-filly

I don't think we'd phrase it quite like that.  I'd suggest something like "So I either have to take the job or leave her, it's a case of Hobson's choice" [and I would not be surprised to hear the term in conversation.]


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## KDH

OK. It's very uncommon these days to use the term, and even when it's used, it should be phrased as Franco suggests. Thank you all


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## Glenfarclas

Well, _I_ use it, and I do say "a Hobson's choice."  Of course, the defining characteristic is that it is a choice between something, and nothing at all.  It's not just a situation of two undesirable choices, or of a choice which will have negative consequences.


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## KDH

Oh, some people do use it!  I came across this term in my English material, and it sounded somewhat unnatural to me (although I'm not a native English speaker) and so I asked this question. I didn't know that it represented a choice between something and nothing at all  Thanks for your advice. I'll keep it in mind.


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## Andygc

It's a BE idiom and is still alive and well. It means that you must take what you are offered - that is, you don't have a choice. The idiom here does not have an article. "It's Hobson's choice", never "a Hobson's choice". Thomas Hobson was a real person and his picture is in the National Portrait Gallery in London.


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## Wordsmyth

Florentia52 said:


> I don't think most native English speakers would know what a Hobson's choice was.


American English speakers maybe, Flo (Glen excepted); but as Franco-filly and Andy have suggested, and I join them, it's a well-known expression in BrE (without the article "a").

Ws


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## bennymix

Hi Andy,

I think you're being a bit too demanding, here, about the absence of 'a'.  Oxford, as available online gives 4 examples.  Two have the article.

*http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/Hobson's-choice
Definition of Hobson's choice in English:

noun
*
A choice of taking what is available or nothing at all: 

_the __regional__ council must decide whether a private __toll bridge__ is better than no bridge at all—it’s a Hobson’s choice_
_ 
Hence, a Hobson's choice was not a choice at all._




Andygc said:


> It's a BE idiom and is still alive and well. It means that you must take what you are offered - that is, you don't have a choice. The idiom here does not have an article. "It's Hobson's choice", never "a Hobson's choice". Thomas Hobson was a real person and his picture is in the National Portrait Gallery in London.


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## Andygc

Benny, it's not just me, if you look back up the thread. To me, this is a bizarre sentence: "the regional council must decide whether a private toll bridge is better than no bridge at all—it’s a Hobson’s choice". It should, as far as I am concerned, be "the regional council must decide whether a private toll bridge is better than no bridge at all—it’s Hobson’s choice".

The whole point of "Hobson’s choice" is that there is only one. There cannot be "a Hobson’s choice" because that would allow for there being two Hobson’s choices, and that, by definition, is an impossibility.

I can just about accept "Hence, a Hobson's choice was not a choice at all." as part of an account of how the idiom came into use, but for me the idiom does not come with the "a". However, I'd write that as "Hence, Hobson's choice was no choice at all."


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## Glenfarclas

Andygc said:


> The whole point of "Hobson’s choice" is that there is only one. There cannot be "a Hobson’s choice" because that would allow for there being two Hobson’s choices, and that, by definition, is an impossibility.



Well, I just don't see (or say) it that way.  In fact, I'll _give_ you two Hobson's choices:  the choice between the horse in the horse in the first stall and no horse at all, and the choice between a private toll bridge and no bridge at all.


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## bennymix

I accept your experience, Andy.    But your argument below is, well, kinda fishy.  

Would you argue that I can't say to you, if I hear of a job offer from Google to you.
"This presents you, Andy, with a unique opportunity."

ADDED:  I think too, regardles of the niceties, Oxford is just recognizing common usage.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...erkel-faces-a-Hobsons-choice-on-eurozone.html

(The occurrence of the article in a headline is notable, I think, because headline writers often delete articles where they aren't necessary;  there's some bias against articles.)

*Merkel faces a Hobson’s choice on eurozone*

As usual in Europe, it all comes back to truculent Germany. Only Berlin can provide the guarantees needed to restore confidence. But it is too late to buy confidence cheaply. Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, faces a classic Hobson's choice. Put taxpayer money on the line and lose her job, or risk a catastrophe. That's a mugging in all but name. Unsettling parallels are being drawn between the current panic and the market meltdown in 2008. 

====
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...e-walshs-third-aer-lingus-offer-10004472.html

*James Moore: Dublin faces a Hobson's choice over Willie Walsh's third Aer Lingus offer *







Andygc said:


> Benny, it's not just me, if you look back up the thread. To me, this is a bizarre sentence: "the regional council must decide whether a private toll bridge is better than no bridge at all—it’s a Hobson’s choice". It should, as far as I am concerned, be "the regional council must decide whether a private toll bridge is better than no bridge at all—it’s Hobson’s choice".
> 
> The whole point of "Hobson’s choice" is that there is only one. There cannot be "a Hobson’s choice" because that would allow for there being two Hobson’s choices, and that, by definition, is an impossibility.
> 
> I can just about accept "Hence, a Hobson's choice was not a choice at all." as part of an account of how the idiom came into use, but for me the idiom does not come with the "a". However, I'd write that as "Hence, Hobson's choice was no choice at all."


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## Andygc

All I'm saying is that the way the idiom is used in BE, in my experience, is always without an article. It's completely unnatural to say "I'll give you two Hobson's choices" or "I'll give you a Hobson's choice." I'm perfectly happy for Glenfarclas to have as many Hobson's choices as he likes because he doesn't speak BE and is using the idiom in a way that makes sense to him. It just doesn't make sense to me to use it that way.


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## bennymix

See BE examples added above.         Andy, you know, of course, I accept your
knowledge and authority in these matters.


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## Andygc

Benny, the Independent article has misused the metaphor, since the Irish government does not have Hobson's choice. The Irish government faces a difficult choice, which is an entirely different matter. The same is true of the Telegraph article. Angela Merkel has some difficult decisions to make, but they are hardly "choose this or choose nothing". There are plenty of horses in her stable and she may choose to bring out more than one of them. If journalists want to misuse metaphors, they are welcome to stick indefinite articles in front of them.

Edit
PS. I will, however, agree that had the journalists not misused the idiom, and did Angela really have Hobson's choice, it would be acceptable to say "Angela has a classic Hobson's choice." She doesn't have "a Hobson's choice", she has "Hobson's choice", but the situation could be described as "a classic Hobson's choice". That is a description of the situation, not of the choice. I trust that you can see the point.


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## bennymix

Thanks, Andy!


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## epistolario

Let's say political dynasties exist in a country because lawmakers are not passing a law that prohibit it. One politician is being interviewed and asked for his opinion about it. I just want to confirm if _Hobson's choice_ is properly used in the following (imaginary) dialogue:  

- What can you say about political dynasties? Should our lawmakers ban it?​- It's _Hobson's choice_. The Constitution states that Congress should pass a law prohibiting political dynasties. (= There is no choice. It must be done because it's mandated in the Constitution; but they are evading it because many of them will be affected.)​


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## Andygc

Well, it is obviously not Hobson's choice. They are choosing to not do what the constitution says.


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## Uncle Jack

"Hobson's choice" is being being left with no alternative, not making a difficult decision or delaying making the decision.


epistolario said:


> - It's _Hobson's choice_. The Constitution states that Congress should pass a law prohibiting political dynasties. (= There is no choice. It must be done because it's mandated in the Constitution; but they are evading it because many of them will be affected.)


Since they appear to be able to evade it, it is not Hobson's choice. If the law were being enacted because lawmakers were compelled to do so by the Constitution, and there was no evading making the law, then Hobson's choice would be fine.

Having said this, Hobson's choice is rare even in BrE. I expect if I asked my friends, fewer than a third would have any idea about what I was talking about, and even those may only know of the expression from the 1915 play by Harold Brighouse or the 1954 film version by David Lean, and they may have little idea about what the expression actually means. It isn't an expression I would use myself, and I cannot remember encountering it in writing.


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## Keith Bradford

It's a perfectly normal expression, often encountered in writing (and not just as the title of Brighouse's play) and occasionally in conversation.  I'm amazed that others are unfamiliar with it.


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## Tegs

I'd never heard of it or seen it in writing until I stumbled across this thread.


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## sound shift

Until I stumbled across this thread I didn't realise that I had been using the expression wrongly .


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## Andygc

Tegs said:


> I'd never heard of it or seen it in writing until I stumbled across this thread.


Perhaps because it is a very _mainland_ English expression?


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## Tegs

Andygc said:


> Perhaps because it is a very _mainland_ English expression?


That could well be the case. I don't think it's used in Ireland, or at least, that's my impression.


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## kentix

I'm definitely familiar with it in the U.S. But, as said above, it's not exactly common. I might have used it once or twice myself but I can't be absolutely certain. I would certainly recognize its use in something I was reading.


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## kentix

There are 65 examples in the COCA American English database. But going to sound shift's point:



sound shift said:


> Until I stumbled across this thread I didn't realise that I had been using the expression wrongly .



it seems a fair number of them use it with the meaning of a choice between two bad alternatives - with the idea being you lose equally strongly with either choice.


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## Uncle Jack

I only know it because of Brighouse's play, which I had to study at school. I am not sure if I have ever encountered it in the wild.


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## bennymix

kentix said:


> There are 65 examples in the COCA American English database. But going to sound shift's point:
> 
> 
> 
> it seems a fair number of them use it with the meaning of a choice between two bad alternatives - with the idea being you lose equally strongly with either choice.



Surely that is implicit in the 'foundational example.'   The boy wants an excellent horse;  his choice a) a mediocre, even crappy one, or b)  no horse at all.    Of course it's not a equal loss in both, since for a) the loss is less.

Hobson's choice, as I would put it, is that one is 'forced' (as is the boy, *in a manner of speaking*) to make do with [=choose] much less than desired.


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## Andygc

There is no implication of the choice being "mediocre, even crappy". It's simply this one or nothing. Of course idioms drift in meaning, but Hobson was looking after his horses - the one you hire is the one that is best rested. On the few occasions I have used the expression it has been with the straightforward "this one or nothing" meaning.


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## alla-0

Added to previous thread.
Cagey, moderator 

Hi! I came across an English idiom that I would like to use, however, I'm not sure whether it is common or not. The phrase that I found is a " Hobson's choice", would you use it as a native speaker? Also, in which context could it be more appropriate?


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## Loob

Hello alla-0

If you put _*Hobson's choice*_ into the Dictionary and thread title search box  you'll find several previous threads: Hobson's choice - WordReference.com Dictionary of English.

And yes, I would use it.


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## alla-0

Just checked them, sorry if I bothered you and thank you for your help!


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## ewie

I don't personally use it, because I can never remember what it means.


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## Packard

Unlike Ewie, I remember what it means. Like Ewie, I never use it.  

There is almost always a more effective way to express this.

Some idioms are a solid shortcut to express a more complicated concept.  “Occam’s razor” comes to mind.  But ”Hobson’s choice” is not one of those idioms.

I would probably say something like this: 

”You are offering me a choice with only one option.”


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