# Grenze , grens , granica , граница..



## Włoskipolak 72

Hello

Lately I have discoverd the origin of the noun border , from Proto-Slavic granica.
I was quite surprised because I have always imagined that origin of noun  granica , was borrowed from the German ''Grenze '' !  


Grenze f. ‘Linie, die zwei Staaten, Länder, Grundstücke oder andere Bereiche voneinander trennt’. Mhd. graniza, graenizen, greniz stammt aus altpoln. granica, grańca ‘Grenzzeichen, Grenzlinie’ (poln. granica) und wird auf der gesamten Länge des polnisch-deutschen Grenzgebietes entlehnt; vgl. die slaw. Entsprechungen russ. graníca (граница), tschech. hranice (zu deren Grundwörtern s. ↗Granne)

Limit f. ‘Line that separates two states, countries, properties or other areas from each other’. Mhd. graniza, graenizen, greniz comes from old pol. granica, grańca ‘Grenzzeichen, Grenzlinie’ (Polish granica) and is borrowed along the entire length of the Polish-German border area; see. the Slavic equivalents Russian graníca (граница), Czech hranice (for their basic words see ↗Granne)

DWDS – Digitales Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache


----------



## jazyk

What is your question?


----------



## Włoskipolak 72

jazyk said:


> What is your question?



Well  I would like to know the etymology  of noun '' border '' , '' frontier ''  in other languages ! 
Thanks


----------



## jazyk

One question per thread.


----------



## ahvalj

_Этимологический словарь славянских языков… Выпуск 7 (golvačь – gyžati) · ОН Трубачёв · 1980: _104–108 mentions the Slavic words with the following basic meanings across languages:

_grana/granъ/granь_ “branch, twig, pole; border, verge, edge, corner; boundary mark; a kind of tree; etc.”
_granatъ_ “branchy; angular; broad-shouldered”
_granica_ “branch; a species of oak; boundary”
_graniti (sę)_ “to branch out; to notch; to determine boundaries; to facet”
_granivъ_ “orange; grayish-brown”.
The root is suggested to have been _*gʰrehₑ-__,_ that is the same as in _green/grün _and _grow_.

In Old Church Slavonic, _граница/granica_ is attested with the meaning “branch, twig” (_Словарь старославянского языка. Том 1. А – И · 2006:_ 433).

For semantics, the Slavic _*meďa_ “boundary” (from _*medʰi̯os_ “middle”) corresponds to the Baltic _*medi̯an_ “forest; tree” (Prussian _median,_ Lithuanian _medis__,_ Latvian _mežs_), with apparently an opposite development.


----------



## Mori.cze

German Grenze is of Slavic origin (specifically Lusatian Sorbian I believe)
This is not surprising as both languages coexisted for quite a long time and word exchange works both ways.
There are also other German words of Slavic origin (I know of Peitsche/whip from Czech bič and Quark (dairy product) from Czech tvaroh)


----------



## dihydrogen monoxide

ahvalj said:


> _Этимологический словарь славянских языков… Выпуск 7 (golvačь – gyžati) · ОН Трубачёв · 1980: _104–108 mentions the Slavic words with the following basic meanings across languages:
> 
> _grana/granъ/granь_ “branch, twig, pole; border, verge, edge, corner; boundary mark; a kind of tree; etc.”
> _granatъ_ “branchy; angular; broad-shouldered”
> _granica_ “branch; a species of oak; boundary”
> _graniti (sę)_ “to branch out; to notch; to determine boundaries; to facet”
> _granivъ_ “orange; grayish-brown”.
> The root is suggested to have been _*gʰrehₑ-__,_ that is the same as in _green/grün _and _grow_.
> 
> In Old Church Slavonic, _граница/granica_ is attested with the meaning “branch, twig” (_Словарь старославянского языка. Том 1. А – И · 2006:_ 433).
> 
> For semantics, the Slavic _*meďa_ “boundary” (from _*medʰi̯os_ “middle”) corresponds to the Baltic _*medi̯an_ “forest; tree” (Prussian _median,_ Lithuanian _medis__,_ Latvian _mežs_), with apparently an opposite development.



Is it difficult to assume that if granica is a species of oak that grana is not a kind of tree but a species of oak?
Wouldn't granica be little branch or twig?
Is _granivъ _preserved in any Slavic language, I don't believe it is in BCS or Slovenian?


----------



## jazyk

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Is _granivъ _preserved in any Slavic language


I can't think of anything.


----------



## ahvalj

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Is _granivъ _preserved in any Slavic language, I don't believe it is in BCS or Slovenian?





jazyk said:


> I can't think of anything.


In 19th century Bulgarian:


----------



## jazyk

I couldn't think of it because I didn't know it.


----------



## ahvalj

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> Is it difficult to assume that if granica is a species of oak that grana is not a kind of tree but a species of oak?
> Wouldn't granica be little branch or twig?


_Gran-_ as a specific name may mean “oak“, but in principle it may be used for angular/sharp-edged/branched parts of other plants, like couch grass (not a tree), infructescence of chestnuts or hazelnuts, bunch of grapes, ear of barley. My impression is that the plants are named after the shape, not the opposite way after the oak (there are almost three pages of text under this lemma, I can't post it all here).


----------



## Włoskipolak 72

ahvalj said:


> _Этимологический словарь славянских языков… Выпуск 7 (golvačь – gyžati) · ОН Трубачёв · 1980: _104–108 mentions the Slavic words with the following basic meanings across languages:
> 
> _grana/granъ/granь_ “branch, twig, pole; border, verge, edge, corner; boundary mark; a kind of tree; etc.”
> _granatъ_ “branchy; angular; broad-shouldered”
> _granica_ “branch; a species of oak; boundary”
> _graniti (sę)_ “to branch out; to notch; to determine boundaries; to facet”
> _granivъ_ “orange; grayish-brown”.
> The root is suggested to have been _*gʰrehₑ-__,_ that is the same as in _green/grün _and _grow_.
> 
> In Old Church Slavonic, _граница/granica_ is attested with the meaning “branch, twig” (_Словарь старославянского языка. Том 1. А – И · 2006:_ 433).
> 
> For semantics, the Slavic _*meďa_ “boundary” (from _*medʰi̯os_ “middle”) corresponds to the Baltic _*medi̯an_ “forest; tree” (Prussian _median,_ Lithuanian _medis__,_ Latvian _mežs_), with apparently an opposite development.



That's very interesting :

_grana/granъ/granь_ “branch, twig, pole; border, verge, edge, corner; boundary mark; a kind of tree; etc.”
In Polish  we have fem. noun  *grań * [ɡrãɲ],  plur. *granie , *
- geol. geogr. grzbiet górski o bardzo stromych zboczach, zwykle wąski i skalisty ,( a mountain ridge with very steep slopes, usually narrow and rocky ")
- ostre zetknięcie się ścian lub innych płaszczyzn, ( sharp contact between walls or other surfaces )


----------



## Demiurg

Włoskipolak 72 said:


> In Polish  we have fem. noun  *grań * [ɡrãɲ],  plur. *granie , *
> - geol. geogr. grzbiet górski o bardzo stromych zboczach, zwykle wąski i skalisty ,( a mountain ridge with very steep slopes, usually narrow and rocky ")


The German word for this is "Grat".  DSWS relates it to Russian "грот" and Polish "grot":


> *Grat  *m.   ‘schmaler Bergrücken, Höhenbereich im Bergland’, mhd. mnd. grāt ‘Rückgrat, Bergrücken, Spitze, Stachel, Fischgräte’ (wozu auch nhd. ↗Gräte, s. d.), mnl. graet, nl. graat ‘Gräte’ sind vielleicht wie schwundstufiges russ. (älter) grot (грот) ‘Wurfspieß’, poln. grot, tschech. hrot ‘Spitze’ mit Dentalsuffix im Sinne von ‘Spitzes, Hervorstechendes’ zur Wurzel ie. *gher(ə)- ‘hervorstechen’ (von Pflanzentrieben, Stacheln, Borsten, Erderhebungen, Kanten) gebildet, wobei die germ. Formen hochstufiges und langvokalisches ie. *ghrē-, die slaw. hingegen reduziertes *ghrə- voraussetzen. Zur gleichen Wurzel gehören ↗Granne, ↗Gras, ↗grün (s. d.).


----------



## OBrasilo

Isn't there the word _грань_ in Russian, used in expressions such as _на грани_ meaning _on the verge of_?


----------



## ahvalj

OBrasilo said:


> Isn't there the word _грань_ in Russian, used in expressions such as _на грани_ meaning _on the verge of_?


Yes, there is.


----------



## ahvalj

Concerning _*granivъ _“orange”: Wiktionary and its source suggest a more convincing derivation from_ *grěnь~__*granь_ that apparently come from _grěti__,_ and therefore are unrelated to _granь_ and _granica_ discussed here.


----------

