# There+ verbs



## kachibi

In school, we were seldom taught the use of "there+ a verb" in making sentences. If I want to say that "a group of people came to his booth." Is it correct to say that: "there came a group of people visiting his booth."?


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## perpend

Did you read that somewhere, kachibi? "there came" is possible, but it's not a common construction.


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## se16teddy

"There is", "There are", There was" and "There were" are common. This construction is found with other verbs in poetry and similar writing. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/172126


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## kachibi

not a common construction? It means that it is not generally used among English speakers besides specifically in some poems/literature?


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## perpend

I would say it is not generally used. Do you have any context?

If you would use it, then I would say: There came a group of people *to visit* his booth.


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## Thomas Tompion

I agree that _And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed_ is nearly poetry, but what about

_A little outside Saint-Jean to the north-east, in fact, near the village of Ostabat, three of the main pilgrim routes across France met up, to advance as one towards the mountain passes, so that through Saint-Jean *there went* the pilgrims who had travelled from Paris, from Vézelay in Burgundy, and from Le Puy and Conques further to the south; only those who had come through Provence took a different route into Spain, over the Col du Somport._ _The French Pyrenees._ Sturrock, J. London: Faber & Faber Ltd, 1988?

That doesn't really seem to be poetic writing to me, and it doesn't sound very strange, just rather formal.


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## kachibi

Ok, if "there+ verb" sounds too formal/ literary to informal things. So, just simply use: "a group of buyers came to visit his booth" ( though sounds plain?) ?


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## Pertinax

kachibi said:


> Ok, if "there+ verb" sounds too formal/ literary to informal things. So, just simply use: "a group of buyers came to visit his booth" ( though sounds plain?) ?



You can say that, or your original:
_A group of buyers came to his booth._

It's not so much "plain" as free from frills.  On the other hand:
_There came a __group of buyers to his booth._ 
is a style that I associate with a fairy story written a century ago.


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## kachibi

ooh okay!
thanks Pertinax! then I choose the first one~


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## Einstein

I agree with the others. I certainly wouldn't say it and would write it only if I wanted to be literary and a bit old-fashioned. However, it's certainly not wrong.


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## LilianaB

_Here comes Santa_ is a similar construction, I think.


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## kachibi

Indeed I want to talk about "here comes"
It's just the same as "there comes" right?
I mean similarly outdated/literary.


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## LilianaB

I think you can find it in lyrics, such as : _Here comes the rain again_, but you can also hear it in everyday life, as in : _here_ _she comes_.


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## kachibi

So, you mean it can be informal?


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## LilianaB

Yes, I think so.


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## kachibi

But i think "here comes" is different because it is a first-person expression?


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## LilianaB

These are not regular structures and they cannot be used with every verb and in every context.


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## kachibi

Can you explain more Liliana?


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## LilianaB

They are not that often used in everyday life, or even in lyrics. There are only certain combinations which are acceptable. I do not think you could say: here she eats, here she gets dressed, etc. They are more of idiomatic expressions.


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## Thomas Tompion

LilianaB said:


> _Here comes Santa_ is a similar construction, I think.



I'd rather supposed we weren't considering this sort of exclamatory use.

In the more traditional and, some say, literary use we seem to be discounting things which I'd regard as normal, and not particularly elevated in register: e.g.

_*There seems* to be little point in arguing about this.
__*There comes *__a time when we need to consider how we approach this problem._

*There exist* hundreds of other possible examples.


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## JulianStuart

Thomas Tompion said:


> I'd rather supposed we weren't considering this sort of exclamatory use.
> 
> In the more traditional and, some say, literary use we seem to be discounting things which I'd regard as normal, and not particularly elevated in register: e.g.
> 
> _*There seems* to be little point in arguing about this.
> __*There comes *__a time when we need to consider how we approach this problem._
> 
> *There exist* hundreds of other possible examples.


There you go!  In some expressions, this seems OK because they are turning into set expressions while the more widespread use of there + verb is fading and sounding archaic, like bible versions or fairy tales.  
Deep in the forest there lived a wicked witch.  In the dark nights there arose terrible howls of anguish from the tortured souls trapped there.


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## Thomas Tompion

Do those three examples I gave fall into your 'deep in the forest' category, Julian?  *There appears* to me no particular difficulty about them at all.  That's not to say I'm giving blanket approval to the form; I'd second advice to non-natives to use it only in contexts where they've already met it.


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## Einstein

_Here comes Susan_ is the opposite of _there goes Susan_ and, as TT says, it's a different use of "there"; in these cases "here" and "there" have a concrete, literal meaning.

I see _There seems to be _as a variant of _There is_, but I agree that there are plenty of not particularly high-register examples.


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## se16teddy

I accept that "there appears/seems to be" is commonly said, and "There comes a point/time" is also a common collocation.  However I would take this 


perpend said:


> There came a group of people *to visit* his booth.


as a seasonal Biblical allusion: "there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem". http://www.bartleby.com/108/40/2.html


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## JulianStuart

se16teddy said:


> I accept that "there appears/seems to be" is commonly said, and "There comes a point/time" is also a common collocation.  However I would take this
> 
> as a seasonal Biblical allusion: "there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem". http://www.bartleby.com/108/40/2.html


I wondered about tense for this but the same can be said of the past forms of certain set phrases/ collocations.  Your example sounds archaic but "There eventually came a time when opinions changed" and "Until the industrial revolution there existed many isolated communities" etc. Still sound fine (future is fine, too!).


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## kachibi

Thanks for all answers.
So, let's make a little conclusion cause I am a bit confused, ok?

For "there+verb" expressions, only certain/restricted verbs like "there seems to"," there appears", "there comes a point/time" can still be accepted/are still used in the modern context. However, other verbs like "there arouses", "there came a group of people..", etc. are considered archaic and outdated. Am I right at this point?

P.S. I want to know sth else: if only restricted verbs can be used in the modern context while it seems possible to use more verbs in the biblical/literary context, CAN I REALLY USE WHATEVER VEBS IN THE LATTER?: there arrived a pretty lady, there descended a god", etc. (and if yes, can I also use a passive verb in this way: there installed a computer (just think it's a biblical/literary writing).)

One more thing: I guess constructions like "there she comes/here she comes" is different from "there+verb" constructions right?

I am happy if someone can answer the above questions one by one=)


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## Thomas Tompion

kachibi said:


> Thanks for all answers.
> So, let's make a little conclusion cause I am a bit confused, ok?
> 
> For "there+verb" expressions, only certain/restricted verbs like "there seems to"," there appears", "there comes a point/time" can still be accepted/are still used in the modern context. However, other verbs like "there arouses", "there came a group of people..", etc. are considered archaic and outdated. Am I right at this point? Yes, I'd say so.
> 
> P.S. I want to know sth else: if only restricted verbs can be used in the modern context while it seems possible to use more verbs in the biblical/literary context, CAN I REALLY USE WHATEVER VEBS IN THE LATTER?: there arrived a pretty lady, there descended a god", etc. (and if yes, can I also use a passive verb in this way: there installed a computer (just think it's a biblical/literary writing).)  I'd study this carefully, if I really wanted to use this register.  I suspect some verbs are fine and others not.  I can't help wondering why you might want to use this achaic form.
> 
> One more thing: I guess constructions like "there she comes/here she comes" is different from "there+verb" constructions right?  Yes, entirely different.
> 
> I am happy if someone can answer the above questions one by one=)


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## kachibi

Thanks Thomas, some more to ask:

For "there+verb" expressions, only certain/restricted verbs like "there seems to"," there appears", "there comes a point/time" can still be accepted/are still used in the modern context. However, other verbs like "there arouses", "there came a group of people..", etc. are considered archaic and outdated. Am I right at this point? Yes, I'd say so. << can you suggest more possible examples that can be used in the modern context? I guess "there exists" is also one?

One more thing: I guess constructions like "there she comes/here she comes" is different from "there+verb" constructions right? Yes, entirely different. << 1) "there she comes/here she comes" isnt an archaic expression, but just a modern short expression to mean: "She finally comes", am I right?


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## kachibi

Mr Thomas has gone?


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## kachibi

Or can anyone volunteer to answer my last post? thanks~


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## se16teddy

kachibi said:


> For "there+verb" expressions, only certain/restricted verbs like "there seems to"," there appears", "there comes a point/time" can still be accepted/are still used in the modern context.


Sorry, kachibi, over the last few days most native speakers of English have been far too busy having fun, or performing other Christmas duties, to attend to WordReference. 

I would say that in this thread we have identified two modern examples of the _there + verb _construction 
1._ there is/are/was a_nd related forms such as_ there seems/appears to be
_2. _there comes a point/time 
_


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## kachibi

thanks se16teddy..then how about the last question:

One more thing: I guess constructions like "there she comes/here she comes" is different from "there+verb" constructions right? Yes, entirely different. << 1) "there she comes/here she comes" isnt an archaic expression, but just a modern short expression to mean: "She finally comes", am I right?


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## PaulQ

kachibi said:


> Thanks Thomas, some more to ask:
> 
> For "there+verb" expressions, only certain/restricted verbs like "there seems to"," there appears", "there comes a point/time" can still be accepted/are still used in the modern context. However, other verbs like "there arouses", "there came a group of people..", etc. are considered archaic and outdated. Am I right at this point? Yes, I'd say so. << can you suggest more possible examples that can be used in the modern context? I guess "there exists" is also one?
> 
> One more thing: I guess constructions like "there she comes/here she comes" is different from "there+verb" constructions right? Yes, entirely different. << 1) "there she comes/here she comes" isnt an archaic expression, but just a modern short expression to mean: "She finally comes", am I right?





kachibi said:


> Or can anyone volunteer to answer my last post? thanks~


Off the top of my head: (needs some tidying up)

There are differing meanings of *there *and *came/arrived/seemed/etc.
*
"We came to a clearing and *there *found our friends." or "*There* is a cat." - *There *is an indication of a physical position or an existence.
*There *came three men - *came* is a verb of *motion*. "*There*" = at this point in time - a position in time
There *came/arrived/seemed to be* a time - *came* (etc) is a verb of *(change of) state*; "*became*" would better express the meaning.

There + verb is presently used mainly to indicate (i) a position/existence with "to be" and similar link verbs (ii) a state or a change of state. "There are icebergs." "There seemed no end to his talking." "There came a time."
Archaically, it was used also to indicate motion with reference to time. "*There *came three men"; "There rode a man of York into the town." There may be a few idiomatic cases remaining where it still is.


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## kachibi

Thanks PaulQ for your further elaboration, but I precisely have 2 following questions and hope somebody can answer them separately:

1) I guess constructions like "there she comes/here she comes" is different from "there+verb" constructions right? Yes, entirely different. << 1) "there she comes/here she comes" isnt an archaic expression, but just a modern short expression to mean: "She finally comes", am I right? 

2) Then how about "here comes an object/ a person", is it just another archaic "there comes an object/a person" form?


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## PaulQ

It seems there is a difference between [There + past verb and There + future verb and one meaning of There + present verb] and  [the other, more common, meaning of There + present verb]

"There came three men from France"
"There will come three men from France."
"There come three men from France."

All these are archaic forms, dramatic and poetic *statements *and the "there" = "a time". Of these forms of sentences only such as, "*There comes a time when* we have to say "No!"" still survive. This is probably because there is the reference to time.

The *exclamation*, "Oh, Look! There come three men from France!" = "Look over *there*! Over *there* three Frenchmen coming towards us." and refers to a place, not a time.

*"Here comes Jane"* falls into the latter category. Here comes Jane = Jane comes here. i.e. a place; it is an exclamation.


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## kachibi

So, do you mean "there+verb" (the "place" category) sentences, including "there came three men", "will come three men", "come three men" and "here comes three men" are all archaic forms?

Only there+verb sentences but of the "time" category i.e. "there comes a time" still survives?


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## PaulQ

Forgive me, I have never had to think about this before and you are making me think. 

Yes, but "here comes three men" is current and falls into the exclamation category = "three men come here." 

There is an archaic form (and maybe I am getting nearer a better/clearer answer) in 
"They waited until the clock struck noon and here came three men." i.e. here= at this time/upon this event.

I think the answer is that 
There  = There - at that place
or 
There = *Thereupon* = at that time/event

Here = Here - at this place
or Here = *Hereupon* = at this time/event

So: "They waited until the clock struck noon and *hereupon* [i.e. at noon] came three men." i.e. here= at this time/with the striking of the clock.

"There was heard a knock at the door and *thereupon* [i.e. at the knock] gripped his musket."

*Thereupon* and *hereupon* are archaic forms. When you use "*There *comes three men.", as a statement (rather than an observation or an exclamation) you are, in fact, saying, "*Thereupon* came three men."


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## Thomas Tompion

Shouldn't you be saying _There come three men_?  I thought we were talking about the expletive _there_, not the demonstrative _there_.


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## kachibi

Thanks, PaulQ, but I have another question:

So you mean both "here" and "there" can fall into both categories: place (modern) and time (archaic).
And you give the 2 different examples of "here come" to refer to both modern and archaic cases.
Then how about "there come"? If "there" can also fall into both "place" and "time" categories, then why it seems that you said that it can only be used in archaic cases?


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## PaulQ

_*There seems* to be little point in arguing about this. _*seems to be/exists* seems to be (sic) in the same area as *is/are
*_*
There comes *a time ... _Isn't this all but a set phrase? There seem to be very few other examples that would not be considered poetic/literary/dramatic. As it is, 





> "There comes a time in the affairs of men when  ... To save one, we must now make up our minds to save all."_Franklin D. Roosevelt (1882–1945), U.S. president, second annual address to Congress, January 4, 1939._​


A few people could get away with the construction, but I doubt most of us could.​


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## kachibi

thanks so much!


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