# Weltschmerz



## Chazzwozzer

How does the word _Weltschmerz _go in a sentence when used to denote the kind of feeling experienced by someone who understands that physical reality can never satisfy the demands of the mind? Could "I'm in a _Weltschmerz _state of mind." work, for example?


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## nzfauna

This is not an English word, and I've never heard of it before. Most (perhaps 99.9%) of native English speakers would *not *know what it meant, and even fewer would actually ever use it.

However, I think the dictionary definition is "pessimism with life" or something like that - which doesn't really match up with what you wanted above.


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## Kevin Beach

It's a German word and I've never seen it used in an English context.


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## Chazzwozzer

nzfauna said:


> This is not an English word, and I've never heard of it before. Most (perhaps 99.9%) of native English speakers would know what it meant, and even fewer would actually ever use it.
> 
> However, I think the dictionary definition is "pessimism with life" or something like that - which doesn't really match up with what you wanted above.


Well, the word has gained various meanings over the time, and I'd like to use it in the sense I explained (actually, copied from the Wikipedia -Right, it's an unreliable source.-) above.



nzfauna said:


> This is not an English word, and I've never heard of it before.





Kevin Beach said:


> It's a German word and I've never seen it used in an English context.


Right, but the word exists in English and according to the Online Etymology dictionary, it's been used in English since 1875.  It's an existential term, so it's normal that you haven't come across the word since persuambly you aren't interested in existentialism.


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## Brioche

Chazzwozzer said:


> How does the word _Weltschmerz _go in a sentence when used to denote the kind of feeling experienced by someone who understands that physical reality can never satisfy the demands of the mind? Could "I'm in a _Weltschmerz _state of mind." work, for example?



It's a word borrowed from German.
It means sadness or melancholy at the evils of the world, or world-weariness.

There are a few such German borrowings - Gestalt, Schadenfreude, Weltanschauung, Zeitgeist &c - which are used in psychology and philosophy, but are not in general use.


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## Loob

Why not say "world-weariness" or "world-weary" instead, Chazzwozzer?

_I'm feeling world-weary._


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## Chazzwozzer

MissTinker said:


> 1 *:* mental depression or apathy caused by comparison of the actual state of the world with an ideal state
> 2 *:* a mood of sentimental sadness
> 
> but i am not sure how to fit it in for what you would like to use it for.


How would you fit it in for the definitions given in your dictionary?


Loob said:


> Why not say "world-weariness" instead?


I want to use the original term.


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## MissTinker

Chazzwozzer said:


> How would you fit it in for the definitions given in your dictionary?
> 
> I want to use the original term.


 
I do not think that would work.


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## Kevin Beach

Chazzwozzer said:


> How does the word _Weltschmerz _go in a sentence when used to denote the kind of feeling experienced by someone who understands that physical reality can never satisfy the demands of the mind? Could "I'm in a _Weltschmerz _state of mind." work, for example?


If you want to use that word and no other, then remember that it is a noun and not an adjective.

How about "My mind [or soul] is full of Weltschmerz" or "I'm wrapped in Weltschmerz"?


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## MissTinker

Chazzwozzer said:


> How would you fit it in for the definitions given in your dictionary?
> 
> I want to use the original term.


 


Kevin Beach said:


> If you want to use that word and no other, then remember that it is a noun and not an adjective.
> 
> How about "My mind [or soul] is full of Weltschmerz" or "I'm wrapped in Weltschmerz"?


 

clever,


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## panjandrum

I wonder why you would want to use this word when it seems that a sensible sample of sensible people here have never heard of it before.  However, some rather more well-known people have used it in the past:
*1923* A. HUXLEY _Let._ 2 Sept. (1969) 218, I have also been having a..jaundice lying on my liver, which reduced me to a fearful state of weltschmerz and incapacity to do anything.
*1935* C. ISHERWOOD _Mr. Norris changes Trains_ ix. 150 ‘What's the matter?’ I asked. ‘Things in general... The state of this wicked world. A touch of _Weltschmerz_, that's all.’
*1981* J. D. MACDONALD _Free Fall in Crimson_ i. 6 ‘It is like _weltschmerz_.’ ‘Which, as you have so often told me, is homesickness for a place you have never seen.’


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## Kevin Beach

Panjandrum's quotes remind me of a related question I was going to ask:

We are using a German noun in an English context. In German, all nouns must begin with a capital letter.

What is the rule in English? Is it like that for all borrowed words, i.e. that we adapt them to our our own rules? Or can/should we still follow the German rule because we are still giving the word its precise German meaning?

Should it be Weltschmerz or weltschmerz?


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## cyberpedant

Any AE reader with a liberal arts education would both recognize and understand "weltschmerz," but that's a rather tiny percentage of our population.


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## MissTinker

cyberpedant said:


> Any AE reader with a liberal arts education would both recognize and understand "weltschmerz," but that's a rather tiny percentage of our population.


 

That's abit rich is it not?


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## panjandrum

Kevin Beach said:


> Panjandrum's quotes remind me of a related question I was going to ask:
> 
> We are using a German noun in an English context. In German, all nouns must begin with a capital letter.
> 
> What is the rule in English? Is it like that for all borrowed words, i.e. that we adapt them to our our own rules? Or can/should we still follow the German rule because we are still giving the word its precise German meaning?
> 
> Should it be Weltschmerz or weltschmerz?


As seen in the quotes above, both have been used by reputable writers/publishers.  Both versions are given in the OED definition, though the head word (the dictionary entry) is Weltschmerz.


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## Topsie

panjandrum said:


> I wonder why you would want to use this word when it seems that a sensible sample of sensible people here have never heard of it before. ....


I'm surprised at that! I would have thought it, (if not exactly _common_), at least _heard of_ in the same way as the the other words that Brioche mentioned! 
If Chazzwozzer wants to experience Weltschmerz, I think we should let him... after all, he is 18! 
(Auntie Topsie's Advice: Careful, though, Chazz - too much Weltschmerz can lead to serious depression and mental instability... so you have to compensate with a little _"joie de vivre_" from time to time - it's summertime, so go out and have fun! )


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## Chazzwozzer

panjandrum said:


> I wonder why you would want to use this word when it seems that a sensible sample of sensible people here have never heard of it before.





Topsie said:


> I'm surprised at that! I would have thought it, (if not exactly _common_), at least _heard of_ in the same way as the the other words that Brioche mentioned!


My interlocutors will be English-speaking people interested in existentialism and existential therapy. The word _Weltschmerz _is known by anyone who has a basic knowledge of existential issues. They'll all know what this word means, but I want to use it in the right way.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Then use it as a noun, and only as a noun.


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## ewie

Hello Chazz. _Weltschmerz_ ('World-smarts') is a favourite word of mine, though I don't get to use it often, for the previously stated reasons.
Given that your interlocutors know about existentialism, I see *no reason* why you _shouldn't_ say "I'm in a _Weltschmerz _state of mind." If you want to sound a bit more light-hearted about your world-weariness, you might even say "I'm feeling rather *weltschmerzy* today" ~ you might even get a laugh


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## Thomas1

What is the BE pronunciation of Weltschmertz please?

Tom

PS: not sure whether this question is fine in this thread, so mods move it please if it isn't.


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## Kevin Beach

Thomas1 said:


> What is the BE pronunciation of Weltschmertz please?
> 
> Tom
> 
> PS: not sure whether this question is fine in this thread, so mods move it please if it isn't.


I know of none other than the German: "Veltshmairts"


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## ewie

Hi Tom. I say /velt-shmairts/ ~ sounds more or less like the original, except that I don't pronounce any _r_ sound in it, being British.
Moderators: please delete if inappropriate


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## Thomas1

Thanks.





Kevin Beach said:


> I know of none other than the German: "Veltshm*air*ts"


Is the bolded part accented and pronounced as in cl*air*voyant?

Tom

EDIT: thanks, Ewie, the _r_ was what I was wondering about.


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## ewie

Thomas1 said:


> Thanks.
> Is the bolded part accented and pronounced as in cl*air*voyant?


Yes, exactly.
Presumably our American cousins would pronounce that _r_.


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## Kevin Beach

Thomas1 said:


> Thanks.
> Is the bolded part accented and pronounced as in cl*air*voyant?
> 
> Tom
> 
> EDIT: thanks, Ewie, the _r_ was what I was wondering about.


No. As in most German words, the accent falls on the first syllable.

But, yes, "...air..." is an approximation of the German "...er...".


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## sokol

panjandrum said:


> Both versions are given in the OED definition, though the head word (the dictionary entry) is Weltschmerz.


Personally I would prefer no capital letter as is done with other German loans which are already well-established (like _rucksack, kindergarten,_ etc.)



Topsie said:


> If Chazzwozzer wants to experience Weltschmerz, I think we should let him... after all, he is 18!


Very well put, because _weltschmerz _is a feeling which _really _belongs to adolescence. Its origin are the _weltschmerzy _(thanks ewie!) poems of the German Romanticians. If you can read these poems at all (more than a couple of them) then you are still prepared to feel this weltschmerz sort of thing.



ewie said:


> Hi Tom. I say /velt-shmairts/ ~ sounds more or less like the original, except that I don't pronounce any _r_ sound in it, being British.


If you wish to pronounce rather close to the original I would advice against pronouncing the 'r' the American way, but then if a loan really is integrated in language then also phonetics should be - so feel free to pronounce it you own way!

The German original, transliterated into (British) English spelling, would be best represented with /'velt,shmearts/ (with 'ear' pronounced like in 'swear', and primary stress on 'velt' with a secondary stress on 'shmearts'), so you're pretty close.
(OK OK, that's basically the same as /veltshmairts/, just HAD to show off my German skills, you know. ;-)


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## Piotr_WRF

While we're at showing off our German skills , I really think that _Weltschmerz state of mind _doesn't sound odd (it not being an adjective) considering the way German compound nouns are formed. I'm sure it isn't any different in English though I admit I can't think right now of any noun going well with _state_.

EDIT: Well, what about e.g. _emergency state_?


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## nzfauna

Perhaps we need to know who your audience is?

E.g. I could use specific medical terms with my medical friends, but not with my other friends. You've claimed that Wxxxxxx is a specific term within in existentialist theory.


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## ewie

nzfauna said:


> Perhaps we need to know who your audience is?


 


Chazzwozzer said:


> My interlocutors will be English-speaking people interested in existentialism and existential therapy.


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## Brioche

Kevin Beach said:


> Panjandrum's quotes remind me of a related question I was going to ask:
> 
> We are using a German noun in an English context. In German, all nouns must begin with a capital letter.
> 
> What is the rule in English? Is it like that for all borrowed words, i.e. that we adapt them to our our own rules? Or can/should we still follow the German rule because we are still giving the word its precise German meaning?
> 
> Should it be Weltschmerz or weltschmerz?



An Australian broadsheet newspaper used the word Zeitgeist to-day, and wrote it with a capital letter.

Recent examples in The Times [UK newspaper] have written Weltschmerz with a capital W, but The Guardian writes it with w.


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## nzfauna

Lol, what is a zeitgeist - a time ghost? 

Zeitgeber is also used in biorythym terminology.

Nouns are not capitalised in English - unless they are proper nouns (names).


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## sokol

nzfauna said:


> Nouns are not capitalised in English - unless they are proper nouns (names).



That's my opinion too. (Me being a native speaker of German.)

Probably capitalising German loans (nouns) in English is a way of showing off (that you know that they're capitalised in the original language)?


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## Kevin Beach

sokol said:


> That's my opinion too. (Me being a native speaker of German.)
> 
> Probably capitalising German loans (nouns) in English is a way of showing off (that you know that they're capitalised in the original language)?


For me it's a reflex, just as somebody posted earlier today that he automatically puts accents on French loan-words. Occasionally, when saying something partly in German and partly in English (I'm not really competent in any language apart from English by the way), I've even caught myself saying the English words with a German accent!


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## Nunty

Back in the days when I was studying philosophy, if my memory does not fail me, we capitalized the many German terms that are habitually used by English-speaking philosophers in our papers and articles.


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## Lis48

I agree with Ewie. I see no reason why you can´t say "I'm in a w_eltschmerz _state of mind." It´s a word most educated English people will recognise even if they have to scratch their heads to remember its meaning. This link gives the pronunciation and some sentences where it is used e.g. "Because of her sense of weltschmerz, Mildred gives to every world charity that rings her up or drops her a line."
http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/weltschmerz


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## Loob

Lis48 said:


> This link gives the pronunciation and some sentences where it is used e.g. "Because of her sense of weltschmerz, Mildred gives to every world charity that rings her up or drops her a line."
> http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/weltschmerz


The pronunciation of the second syllable there isn't at all how I'd say it - or others here, seemingly!


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## sokol

Lis48 said:


> (...) This link gives the pronunciation and some sentences where it is used e.g. "Because of her sense of weltschmerz, Mildred gives to every world charity that rings her up or drops her a line."
> http://www.alphadictionary.com/goodword/word/weltschmerz (...)



This link now told me [apart from the weird pronunciation as /vɛltsmɜ˞ts/ = /veltsmerts/ pronounced the American way] that obviously there was a change of meaning when _weltschmerz _was loaned by the English language: in English it seems to mean 'sadness or melancholy at the evils of the world; world-weariness'*).
The original German meaning (according to Duden) is (I try to be true and as close as possible to the original): 'the psychological disposition of feeling pain, sadness and sorrow because of how the world basically is in general, that is: a world that just isn't fit to come to meet one's own expectations and desires'. Or, to cut this short: 'to feel sorry for oneself because the world isn't at all as you think how it should be' - or still in other words a rather adolescent feeling, this one.
My guess would be that in philosophical discourse there exists yet another definition; the one described by me above (the German one) is what generally is meant when used in everyday communication. (Not that German 'Weltschmerz' were used regularly there, mind.)

*) Collins = British English Dictionary; by the way, written with a capital letter (as well as other rather unusual German loans under the letter W: Weltpolitik, Weltanschauung).


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## JamesM

sokol said:


> This link now told me [apart from the weird pronunciation as /vɛltsmɜ˞ts/ = /veltsmerts/ pronounced the American way] that obviously there was a change of meaning when _weltschmerz _was loaned by the English language: in English it seems to mean 'sadness or melancholy at the evils of the world; world-weariness'*).


 
I agree with the borrowed meaning here. I don't agree that the American pronunciation is "Veltsmertz". In the rarified setting of conversations involving this word, I have only heard Americans say, "Velt-shmairts".


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## sokol

JamesM said:


> I agree with the borrowed meaning here. I don't agree that the American pronunciation is "Veltsmertz". In the rarified setting of conversations involving this word, I have only heard Americans say, "Velt-shmairts".



That's what I heard on the audio file; and thanks for confirming that this is not quite the usual pronunciation, it really almost hurt my ears.


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## Art3mis

Chazzwozzer said:


> How does the word _Weltschmerz _go in a sentence when used to denote the kind of feeling experienced by someone who understands that physical reality can never satisfy the demands of the mind? Could "I'm in a _Weltschmerz _state of mind." work, for example?



"I live in a big goddamned welterschmerz ocean you know?" ~ Will Grayson


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## PaulQ

The OED has an entry for weltschmerz (capitalisation optional) first recorded in English in 1875, so its English now. A sort of Germanic version of the English word "ennui" with overtones of psychoanalysis and seriously arty-crafty types.

It's English credentials are further strengthened because when coined, it referred to a very "English" man.





> The phrase has its roots in the 1830s. It was first coined by German writer Jean Paul, who used it to describe Lord Byron’s discontent in the novel Selina, and it signifies a sadness about life.


There’s a German word people use in times of despair, and it’s as apt today as it was in the 19th century


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## Glenfarclas

I was introduced to the word, as I reckon many people were, reading Steinbeck's _East of Eden_: "An ache was on the top of his stomach, an apprehension that was like a sick thought. It was a _Weltschmerz_—which we used to call 'Welshrats'— the world sadness that rises into the soul like a gas and spreads despair so that you probe for the offending event and can find none."


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