# Croatian (BCS): pustite nas da zivimo



## alexilion

pustite nas da zivimo (there's a letter similar to z)
ljudi, nemojte nas jesti


Can anyone tell me what do these sentenses mean? I think it's Croatian.


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## arwyn

alexilion said:


> pustite nas da zivimo (there's a letter similar to z)
> ljudi, nemojte nas jesti
> 
> 
> Can anyone tell me what do these sentenses mean? I think it's Croatian.



yes, it is Croatian.

little bit difficult without the context, but "ljudi, nemojte nas jesti" means let us live and the last sentence means don't eat us alive.

hope I could help you.


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## Mac_Linguist

Pustite nas da živimo. = Let us live.
Ljudi, nemojte nas jesti. = People, don't eat us.

Based on the first one, I'd say it's Serbian (because it uses the construction of _da_ + present tense - which isn't used in standard Croatian, which prefers to use only the infinitive).

It could still be Croatian! I'm not sure if Croatians use that construction in everyday speech. I guess you'll have to wait until a native speaker can give more insight.


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## arwyn

It's a very short sentence, so it is hard to tell. 
But you're right, constructions with "da" are used more frequent in Serbia.


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## alexilion

Thanks! I saw these sentenses on a political poster at Croatia about veganism.


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## Athaulf

Mac_Linguist said:


> Pustite nas da živimo. = Let us live.
> Ljudi, nemojte nas jesti. = People, don't eat us.
> 
> Based on the first one, I'd say it's Serbian (because it uses the construction of _da_ + present tense - which isn't used in standard Croatian, which prefers to use only the infinitive).
> 
> It could still be Croatian! I'm not sure if Croatians use that construction in everyday speech. I guess you'll have to wait until a native speaker can give more insight.



It could well be Croatian. Constructs with _da_ + present in place of infinitive are used very frequently in Croatia, despite the fact that they give peptic ulcer to purists and prescriptivists.  On the other hand, their use is more restricted than in Serbia; in some cases, nobody would ever use them except to make a parody of Serbian. Where exactly they sound intuitively acceptable, that's a hard question, because it depends on sheer native speaker intuition. You can see the contrast in the above example:

_Pustite nas da živimo!_ --> Makes prescriptivists cringe, but sounds OK intuitively.

BUT:

_Nemojte da nas jedete._ --> Sounds like a parody of Serbian and nobody would ever use it seriously.


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## tkekte

I can't grasp the semantic difference. 
Is it because in the first sentence the "nas" refers to the verb in the imperative, andin the second, it refers to the request?
So could it be:
_da + verb_ is okay
_da + pronoun + verb_ is bad


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## Athaulf

tkekte said:


> I can't grasp the semantic difference.
> Is it because in the first sentence the "nas" refers to the verb in the imperative, andin the second, it refers to the request?


I'd say that in this example, the significant difference is that the second sentence expresses a negative command. I can easily think of many positive commands where the _da_ + present construction sounds OK, sometimes even better than the infinitive. On the other hand, as soon as I hear  a negative command _nemoj_/_nemojte da_ + verb in 2nd person, I perceive it as heavily Serbian. There are also many other subtle criteria; it would be very hard to give a precise set of rules. Our language authorities just issue blanket prescriptivist condemnations of _da_ + verb constructs. 



> So could it be:
> _da + verb_ is okay
> _da + pronoun + verb_ is bad



Not really. Anything that's within the clause starting with _da_ doesn't influence things much. On the other hand, if a direct object of the verb in imperative precedes the clause, it tends to make it sound better. But as I said, this is a very complicated issue.


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## Duya

Athaulf said:


> I'd say that in this example, the significant difference is that the second sentence expresses a negative command. I can easily think of many positive commands where the _da_ + present construction sounds OK, sometimes even better than the infinitive. On the other hand, as soon as I hear  a negative command _nemoj_/_nemojte da_ + verb in 2nd person, I perceive it as heavily Serbian. There are also many other subtle criteria; it would be very hard to give a precise set of rules. Our language authorities just issue blanket prescriptivist condemnations of _da_ + verb constructs.
> 
> Not really. Anything that's within the clause starting with _da_ doesn't influence things much. On the other hand, if a direct object of the verb in imperative precedes the clause, it tends to make it sound better. But as I said, this is a very complicated issue.



In this case, different _agents_ of two verbs make the difference: 

[You] let that [we] live.

_Pustite nas živjeti_ is (in my opinion) ungrammatical at worst, and awkward at best, in any form of Croatian. The second (_nemojte nas jesti_) works with infinitive, because the agent is the same (you). Compare:

[Vi] Želite raditi. (Croatian) / [Vi] Želite da [vi] radite (Serbian).
[Vi] Želite da [mi] radimo. (Croatian and Serbian)
[Vi] Želite da [oni] rade. (Croatian and Serbian)


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## arwyn

Maybe it was just a hasty translation of an English poster.


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## Athaulf

Duya said:


> In this case, different _agents_ of two verbs make the difference:
> 
> [You] let that [we] live.
> 
> _Pustite nas živjeti_ is (in my opinion) ungrammatical at worst, and awkward at best, in any form of Croatian.



In Croatia, it's very popular to hyper-correct such sentences to infinitive. They sure sound awkward, but the language policy in Croatia in the last 15 years has been such that many people nowadays use the principle "the more awkward, the better" in writing and formal speech. 



> The second (_nemojte nas jesti_) works with infinitive, because the agent is the same (you). Compare:
> 
> [Vi] Želite raditi. (Croatian) / [Vi] Želite da [vi] radite (Serbian).
> [Vi] Želite da [mi] radimo. (Croatian and Serbian)
> [Vi] Želite da [oni] rade. (Croatian and Serbian)


On the other hand, there are also many cases where the "_da_ + present" constructions sound OK even if the agent of the verbs is the same. It's often the case (but not always) if the clause starts with a relative pronoun, e.g. _ne znam kako da to nazovem_. It also heavily depends on the local dialect.


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## Mac_Linguist

arwyn said:


> Maybe it was just a hasty translation of an English poster.



Considering it's from a poster about veganism — an issue with obviously links to youth culture — vernacular and non-prescriptivist language would therefor be preferred.


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## el_tigre

alexilion said:


> Thanks! I saw these sentenses on a political poster at Croatia about veganism.



Yes ,that is it!

I have seen these posters many times!


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## MrBunRab

Yes we have just come back from holiday and seen this on a poster on a forest walk - not sure if it was about veganism, or possibly just anti-hunting? We were near Rijeka in Croatia, in the mountains. 

I have a photo ... was trying to attach it ... but can't get it small enough to attach. Anyone who is interested in seeing sign, email me! 

It has a picture of a sheep, a deer, a pig, a chicken, a fish and so on, with guns pointing at them, then underneath it says "Molimo, molimo, nemojte nas jesti!"

Another poster next to it says "Jedemje mesa steti klimil - Ljudi ne jedite meso!" and "Zbog vas ljudi mi smo bolesne, Sada jedte sasu bolest". 

Interesting!


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## Duya

Those posters can be found at the bottom of this page:

http://www.glas-zivotinja.hr/?article31

That website belongs to "Glas životinja" (Voice of Animals) magazine, and source of the posters is "Universal life" (http://www.universelles-leben.org/), which looks like a fairly drastic mix of New Age Christianity and vegetarianism. The slogans read:

"Eating meat damages the climate -- people don't eat it!"
"Because of you humans we're ill -- now you eat our illness" (the context is bird flu, I think)


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## Tolovaj_Mataj

Athaulf said:


> In Croatia, it's very popular to hyper-correct such sentences to infinitive. They sure sound awkward, but the language policy in Croatia in the last 15 years has been such that many people nowadays use the principle "the more awkward, the better" in writing and formal speech.


I'm glad to hear this... awkward! 
Since Croatians have been trying to distance their language from Serbian, I see they have turned strongly towards Slovene. 

In Slovene only usage of the infinitive in correct:
Pustíte nas živéti!


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## venenum

I think it's actually the historical influence of the German language which has "triggered" this construction. The parallels are obvious:
Ger.                     Cro.                 Serb.
_Lass mich leben - _Pusti me živjeti. - Pusti me da živim.
Ich darf gehen. - Smijem ići.         - Smijem da idem.

In German, the infinitive stands with the modal verbs, and in Croatian, the same verbs, which express obligation, permission, possibility etc. take the infinitive. It would actually be interesting to see how this has evolved in other Slavic languages, especially those who weren't "contaminated" with German in the course of history.


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## Duya

venenum said:


> I think it's actually the historical influence of the German language which has "triggered" this construction. The parallels are obvious:
> Ger.                     Cro.                 Serb.
> _Lass mich leben - _Pusti me živjeti. - Pusti me da živim.
> Ich darf gehen. - Smijem ići.         - Smijem da idem.
> 
> In German, the infinitive stands with the modal verbs, and in Croatian, the same verbs, which express obligation, permission, possibility etc. take the infinitive. It would actually be interesting to see how this has evolved in other Slavic languages, especially those who weren't "contaminated" with German in the course of history.



I don't think that it was German influence; I think that both Western and Eastern Slavic languages require an infinitive here, and Eastern ones hardly acquired it from Germans; but I'm open to stand corrected. On the other hand, "da+present" construct is a Balkanism, or, to be blunt, it can be regarded as a "Serbism" in Croatian.

However, I still claim that "pusti me živjeti" sounds awkward in Croatian, and it don't expect it from a native speaker, unless he "hypercorrects" himself against a "Serbism". Do you really say "pusti me reći" or "pusti me otići"? (See my post above, where I claim that different agents of two verbs make the difference in choice between infinitive and da+present in Croatian).


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## venenum

I never said that this verbal construction is common for native speakers - I'd never use it. With the verb _pustiti_ I always use _da + present_, but with the other verbs of permission, possibility, obligation, prohibition etc., e.g. _morati, smjeti, pokušati, moći... _I always use the infinitive construction. 
OK, maybe it isn't German influence - that's why I've suggested hearing from the speakers of other Slavic languages - but it certainly sounds as one to my both Croatian and German attuned ear.


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## jazyk

I've studied Russian, Czech, Polish and Macedonian and the only language that has the same feature is Macedonian, so I'd say it has something to do with the Balkans. I don't think German has anything to do here, but again, I'm no expert.


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## Athaulf

Duya said:


> I don't think that it was German influence; I think that both Western and Eastern Slavic languages require an infinitive here, and Eastern ones hardly acquired it from Germans; but I'm open to stand corrected. On the other hand, "da+present" construct is a Balkanism, or, to be blunt, it can be regarded as a "Serbism" in Croatian.





venenum said:


> I never said that this verbal construction is common for native speakers - I'd never use it. With the verb _pustiti_ I always use _da + present_, but with the other verbs of permission, possibility, obligation, prohibition etc., e.g. _morati, smjeti, pokušati, moći... _I always use the infinitive construction.



Actually, upon some reflection on this issue, I would say that people eager to eliminate such "Balkanisms" from Croatian have been oblivious to the fact that the _da_ + present constructions have always had some important stylistic roles in modern Croatian. The verbs mentioned above tend to sound much more bland and less forceful when used with infinitive; in contrast, when used with _da_ + present, they express much more powerful tendencies and hint that there is some opposition to these tendencies.

Some of the best examples of such stylistic use of _da_ + present can actually be found in Croatian patriotic songs. Take for example these lines from one of the most famous ones -- _Ustani, bane_:

_Mađarske zastave dig'o Hedervary,
Silom *hoće* Hrvatsku *da* nam *pomađari*
_
Notice how, at least in my impression, using the infinitive here would not only destroy the rhyme, but also make the sentence sound weaker and less combative. Or, to take an example from another, more recently penned Croatian patriotic song _Od stoljeća sedmog_:

_Tko na tvrdoj stini svoju povist piše,
Tom ne *može* nitko prošlost *da izbriše*
_
Again, the lyrics sound more proud and spiteful to me than if they were using the infinitive in the second verse.

It's easy to find many examples that illustrate the same point in all sorts of Croatian songs and poems, from literary classics to modern rock lyrics.


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