# Pronunciation of "ר" (Resh)



## Que trem doido

I have a question regarding the pronunciation of ר (resh).  

Is it from the tip of the tongue like a person would do with a Spanish r, or is it more from the throat?

תודה


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## Outsider

It varies.


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## Que trem doido

Muito obrigado!!!!


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## claurena

In Israel, the pronunciation is more guttural


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## Aoyama

The prononciation of *ר* (resh) is, as mentioned above , rather guttural, but may also vary, because Israel enjoys many accents.
One may say that the range of Rs (in Israel) covers a wide spectrum, from French parisian R to Latin labial R.
This being said, true (?) sabra accent will have it close to Northern Italian R, if that can give you an indication ...


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## Que trem doido

Thank you all again for your help!!!!


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## naomim

I would say that the most commonly used r today is so soft and subtle it's almost not heard. it's more like the french r but even then, extremely soft. what some of my american friends have figured out is that if you say a word fast, so that the r sort of blends in and disappears, it sounds better. this may sound odd, but try it - it works!


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## Aoyama

If you're talking about the parisian R, called R gras (a kind of guttural R, not widely used until after the 2nd WW), I'd say israeli R is a bit different, a bit more "latin", that's why I mentioned Northern Italian R, very close to the french one, with a little latin touch.
But then, it doesn't matter much ...


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## Blaez

*<<< NEW QUESTION - threads merged by moderator. >>>*


Hi,
Just wondering about the letter resh and its pronunciation in Israel. Is it similar to the French 'r', or an aveolar trill? I have been working on the former and have yet another question regarding that. When you do that - if it is correct to do, do you feel a vibration in the back of your mouth on the roof of your mouth? A feeling of the air vibrating it? Or more friction as air forces its way out, making it more of a guttural? I'm struggling to get the feel for where to make it connect.

regards


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## Drink

Most Israelis use something similar to the French "r" (it is not exactly the same and is actually more similar to the German "r"). The alveolar trill is heard in traditional Sephardi pronunciations, among non-native speakers (the largest groups being native Russian speakers and native Arabic speakers), and sometimes in music (as is also the case with French and German).


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## berndf

Drink said:


> French "r" (it is not exactly the same and is actually more similar to the German "r")


I am German and I live in a French speaking area. I hear absolutely no difference between my own and the French "r".


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## Drink

berndf said:


> I am German and I live in a French speaking area. I hear absolutely no difference between my own and the French "r".



Well it depends what kind of French "r". In Paris, it is certainly different.


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## berndf

Drink said:


> Well it depends what kind of French "r". In Paris, it is certainly different.


No. If you are thinking of the Edith Piaf "r", this has little to do with today's reality.


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## Drink

berndf said:


> No. If you are thinking of the Edith Piaf "r", this has little to do with today's reality.



No, I mean the colloquial Parisian street "r", i.e. voiced uvular fricative, which can even be unvoiced by voicing assimilation.


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## berndf

Drink said:


> No, I mean the colloquial Parisian street "r", i.e. voiced uvular fricative, which can even be unvoiced by voicing assimilation.


In all three languages there are allophonic realisations and they are all different. The only realisation that makes sense to compare is the standard one, i.e. pre-vocalic and outside of a consonant cluster.


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## Drink

berndf said:


> In all three languages there are allophonic realisations and they are all different. The only realisation that makes sense to compare is the standard one, i.e. pre-vocalic and outside of a consonant cluster.



Ok then, in Parisian French, that would still be a very hard fricative, unlike the lighter German trill or approximant.


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## berndf

If you consider this r as "harder" than this one, I don't know what constitutes "hard" for you. All of those are normal pronunciations.


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## Drink

berndf said:


> If you consider this r as "harder" than this one, I don't know what constitutes "hard" for you. All of those are normal pronunciations.



The closest to what I was referring to is the last one on the French page by "gwen_bzh". I'm pretty sure Germans never pronounce it like that, but feel free to contradict me.


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## berndf

Drink said:


> The closest to what I was referring to is the last one on the French page by "gwen_bzh". I'm pretty sure Germans never pronounce it like that, but feel free to contradict me.


That is [ʀ] rather than [ʁ]. In both languages it is a rare variant by now, occurring with similar frequencies. The German sample I posted also has [ʀ] and not [ʁ].


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## Drink

berndf said:


> That is [ʀ] rather than [ʁ]. In both languages it is a rare variant by now, occurring with similar frequencies. The German sample I posted also has [ʀ] and not [ʁ].



Regardless of what symbol you use, I already said it is a voiced uvular fricative. As far as I know, it is still common in Paris.

Anyway, If you heard the "gwen_bzh" sample saying "Reine", could you possibly think it was a German person saying "Renn"? Forget about analyzing the sound and just listen to it.


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## berndf

Drink said:


> Regardless of what symbol you use, I already said it is a voiced uvular fricative. As far as I know, it is still common in Paris.
> 
> Anyway, If you heard the "gwen_bzh" sample saying "Reine", could you possibly think it was a German person saying "Renn"? Forget about analyzing the sound and just listen to it.


I posted a sample from a German speaker pronouncing a German word with exactly that r.


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## Drink

berndf said:


> I posted a sample from a German speaker pronouncing a German word with exactly that r.



I hear a huge difference between them.


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## berndf

Drink said:


> I hear a huge difference between them.


There are the to be expected length differences, both the initial r and the following vowel are longer in French but there is no difference in the quality of the r.


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## Drink

berndf said:


> There are the to be expected length differences, both the initial r and the following vowel are longer in French but there is no difference in the quality of the r.



There is a difference in the "r" sound. Quality, quantity, tone, whatever I don't care; it's still different and it still remains different when French speakers and German speakers attempt to speak Hebrew.


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## berndf

Drink said:


> whatever I don't care


That is your right. I don't really care if you care either.


Drink said:


> it's still different and it still remains different when French speakers and German speakers attempt to speak Hebrew.


It is of course possible that French speakers don't always observe the phonemic distinction between ר and ח which a German normally would do (except if he/she is from a dialect region with r-ch merger in front of unvoiced consonants).


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## Drink

berndf said:


> That is your right. I don't really care if you care either.



What I meant is that you are always narrowing your view and saying "there is no difference in this narrow area I'm looking at" and completely ignoring the wider view that does have differences. And that when I say there is a difference, I am not talking about whichever narrow view you decide to look at it through, but about the wider picture.


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## berndf

Drink said:


> And that when I say there is a difference, I am not talking about whichever narrow view you decide to look at it through, but about the wider picture.


I agreed to this difference as far as the relationship to Hebrew is concerned:


berndf said:


> It is of course possible that French speakers don't always observe the phonemic distinction between ר and ח which a German normally would do (except if he/she is from a dialect region with r-ch merger in front of unvoiced consonants).


Do we agree on that?


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## Drink

berndf said:


> Do we agree on that?



I agree that that is true, but it doesn't fully explain the difference. I have never heard of these German dialects that merge "r" and "ch" in front of unvoiced consonants; I maybe if I heard them, their "r" would sound more like the French "r" to me.


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## berndf

Drink said:


> I agree that that is true, but it doesn't fully explain the difference. I have never heard of these German dialects that merge "r" and "ch" in front of unvoiced consonants; I maybe if I heard them, their "r" would sound more like the French "r" to me.


Fine.

One last note: In French, as in those German dialects (Rhineland dialects), the devoicing occurs only in specific phonetic contexts and not randomly. You are aware of that, aren't you?


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## Drink

berndf said:


> Fine.
> 
> One last note: In French, as in those German dialects (Rhineland dialects), the devoicing occurs only in specific phonetic contexts and not randomly. You are aware of that, aren't you?



I did mention "voicing assimilation", didn't I? Not "random devoicing".


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## berndf

Drink said:


> I did mention "voicing assimilation", didn't I? Not "random devoicing".


No criticism, just double-checking.


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## hadronic

My twocents : as a native speaker of French, I find the pronunciation of gwen_bzh not natural, reminds me of the Belgian accent, with very hard uvular fricatives. As I said many times in this board, French R has 4 variantes, the most common being by far the uvular _approximant_. 
http://www.forvo.com/word/bois_de_renne/#fr


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