# Kinds of irony



## Outsider

There's an interesting thread in the English Only forum about the difference between "irony" and "sarcasm". Cyberpedant found that the word "sarcasm" is of Greek origin, and it seems to have remained closer to its original meaning.

But things seem to be different with the word "irony". As I remarked in one post:



Outsider said:


> It's curious how two such different concepts -- saying something without meaning it, and a set of circumstances that create humour -- ended up with the same name.
> 
> Another interesting thing is that the latter kind of "irony", which Thomas has aptly named "situational irony", seems to be largely an anglophone concept. In other languages, irony normally means just "saying something you don't mean".


Then James wrote something else that got me wondering:



james. said:


> I think many of the Greek myths are, to me, the ultimate examples of tragic irony.


This is very true! So I was wondering if Greek had a word for what we call situational or tragic irony, as opposed to irony in the sense of "pretending".

Thanks in advance.
Ευχαριστώ εκ των προτέρων.


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## Tetina

> This is very true! So I was wondering if Greek had a word for what we call situational or tragic irony, as opposed to irony in the sense of "pretending".
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> Ευχαριστώ εκ των προτέρων.


 

Hi Outsider! What an interesting post!

Let me understand though....saying "pretending" do you mean the Socratic Irony which was a method of Socrates who pretending ingorance was setting such questions to his interlocutors that would reveal the contradiction of what they were saying? 

Because the modern use of irony doesn't have the meaning of pretending (as far as I can think now...).
Or an example would be useful....


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## Outsider

Right. Evidently, I did not explain the concept well enough. There are examples in the first page of the other thread, and Cuchuflete posted a link to this article, which explains all the meanings of "irony" in English. Does it help?

P.S. There was also this essay, to which Thomas posted a link.


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## Tetina

> quote=Outsider;5236952]Right. Evidently, I did not explain the concept well enough. There are examples in the first page of the other thread, and Cuchuflete posted a link to this article, which explains all the meanings of "irony" in English. Does it help?
> 
> P.S. There was also this essay, to which Thomas posted a link.


 
On first thought, there are no different words to discribe the different kinds of irony in greek. 
But it is nessecary to distinguish between the cases. 



For example, we use:

"tragic irony" for Oidipous,
"the irony of fortune" for the games of life
"sarcasm" for the case of mixted irony+malice,
"irony" for a _harmless_ use of words that imply opposition
and 

"Socratic irony" discribing the Socratic method.
I know my analysis is rather simplified and surely not sientific but I care to answer that neither plane "irony" is suitable nor one specific greek word is there for each or one of those cases.


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## Outsider

Ευχαριστώ.


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## wonderment

Outsider said:


> Then James wrote something else that got me wondering:
> 
> 
> james. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with the first poster's examples. I think many of the Greek myths are, to me, the ultimate examples of tragic irony.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is very true! So I was wondering if Greek had a word for what we call situational or tragic irony, as opposed to irony in the sense of "pretending".
Click to expand...


Your question got me thinking about the ancients--surely the Greeks who watched the performance of tragedy thought about “tragic irony”, but with what word(s)? I did an English-Greek word search at the Perseus website, then skimmed Aristotle’s _Poetics_ in hope of an answer. But alas, not much luck. The closest thing I came across was a discussion of περιπέτεια (reversal), a central element in the creation of tragic situations. Aristotle, _Poetics_ 6.3:

“Reversal (περιπέτεια) is a change by which the action veers round to its opposite, subject always to our rule of probability or necessity. Thus in the Oedipus, the messenger comes to cheer Oedipus and free him from his alarms about his mother, but by revealing who he is, he produces the opposite effect. Again in the Lynceus, Lynceus is being led away to his death, and Danaus goes with him, meaning to slay him; but the outcome of the preceding incidents is that Danaus is killed and Lynceus saved.”​Clearly the ancients talked about the concept of “tragic irony.” Perhaps they had not yet coined a specific phrase for it? (I’m reminded of a book by Douglas Adams and John Loyd: _The Meaning of Liff_, in which they take the names of obscure places and apply them to concepts that we all have a need for, but not yet the word. For example, playing on the idea that hex=curse, Hextable: the CD in someone’s music collection that convinces you that you could never date them. ) 

But that was then and this is now, and I wonder what the Modern Greek translation for “tragic irony” would be. η τραγική ειρωνεία? A literal translation would not work for AG because ειρωνεία generally meant “dissembling”, but does MG ειρωνεία have the full range of meaning as English “irony”? Thanks in advance.


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## Vagabond

Not sure I got the tragic irony issue correctly, but in case I did, in Modern Greek it is indeed τραγική ειρωνεία; in fact, I was under the impression that's what it was called in Ancient Greek as well..? The idea was that the hero was oblivious to something crucial to himself, that the audience knew, or could easily assume. The hero would make plans, strategising about the future, while the audience already knew it was futile. Are we even talking about the same thing? 

Somewhere in there , there is mention of it (article on ancient tragedy).


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## wonderment

I think we are _almost_ talking about the same thing.  In English, there is a distinction between "tragic irony" (the protagonist does not know that he/she is being ironic; there's a gap between reality and his/her words and actions) and "dramatic irony" (the audience knows more than the protagonist). According to dictionary.com "dramatic irony" is an expression that originated around 1905-1910. 

In any case, a literal AG translation of η τραγική ειρωνεία would be "tragic dissembling/pretending"; it doesn't have the same denotation as "tragic irony" or "dramatic irony". AG ειρωνεία meant simply "dissimulation"; the term applied to Socrates when he pretended to be ignorant in order to question his hapless interlocutors. Socratic irony is intentional; tragic irony is not.

A word can change or accrue in meaning, and I _think_ this may be the case with ειρωνεία. It originally meant "dissembling" and along the way gained the full range of meaning as English "irony". Vagabond, you would know better than I because I haven't a clue as to all the things that ειρωνεία could mean in Modern Greek. Can we use ειρωνεία to translate all (or nearly all) the definitions you see here for English "irony"?


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## Vagabond

wonderment said:


> I think we are _almost_ talking about the same thing.  In English, there is a distinction between "tragic irony" (the protagonist does not know that he/she is being ironic; there's a gap between reality and his/her words and actions) and "dramatic irony" (the audience knows more than the protagonist).


Boy, that's one very fine line! Going by the above definitions, I think "tragic irony" could indeed be «τραγική ειρωνεία», though not necessarily so. In modern Greek, it could just be «ειρωνεία». "Dramatic irony" is consistent with the Ancient «τραγική ειρωνεία», I think (which was, after all, mostly applied in ancient drama).


> In any case, a literal AG translation of η τραγική ειρωνεία would be "tragic dissembling/pretending"; it doesn't have the same denotation as "tragic irony" or "dramatic irony". AG ειρωνεία meant simply "dissimulation"; the term applied to Socrates when he pretended to be ignorant in order to question his hapless interlocutors. Socratic irony is intentional; tragic irony is not.
> 
> A word can change or accrue in meaning, and I _think_ this may be the case with ειρωνεία. It originally meant "dissembling" and along the way gained the full range of meaning as English "irony".


That makes perfect sense. I would say that, in Modern Greek, you wouldn't quite use the word ειρωνεία in its Socratic sense (unless of course you qualified it as Σωκρατική ειρωνεία). For feigned ignorance to be considered as ειρωνεία, one would have to attach to it an intent to defy and mock - it would definitely have a negative feel (you feign ignorance in order to make me look like an idiot, what we'd say in casual modern Greek «με δουλεύεις» ).


> Vagabond, you would know better than I because I haven't a clue as to all the things that ειρωνεία could mean in Modern Greek. Can we use ειρωνεία to translate all (or nearly all) the definitions you see here for English "irony"?


Hm, okay, one by one:
*1.**the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: **the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.* 

Yes and no. That would be sarcasm, and even though the terms are sometimes used interchangeably, they are still considered as separate and different. However, the verb ειρωνεύομαι would be easily used.

*2.**Literature. **a.**a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated. *
Yep, works for me.
*b.**(esp. in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., esp. as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.*
I'm not entirely sure about this one, but it wouldn't feel weird to me. Then again, writing techniques - I am not quite an expert...

*3. Socratic Irony*
Σωκρατική ειρωνεία would work, but ειρωνεία on its own would be confusing, imo.

*4. Dramatic irony*
That would be τραγική ειρωνεία.

*5.**an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected. **6.**the incongruity of this.*
I have to say yes to those - ειρωνεία, τραγική ειρωνεία or ειρωνεία της τύχης would work fine.

*7.**an objectively sardonic style of speech or writing.*
Again, I think σαρκαστικός or καυστικός would fit better, still ειρωνικός would be used on occasion. It seems that the line between sarcasm and irony is a very fine one in Greek, at least in cases like this.

*8.**an objectively or humorously sardonic utterance, disposition, quality, etc.*
If that's satire we are talking about, I'd have to say no. I think the line between σάτιρα and ειρωνεία is a bit better defined than the one between σαρκασμός and ειρωνεία.

Though, like I said in a different thread, occasionally Greeks will lump together anything, no matter how many fine distinctions there are - who cares about precision! Funny thing is, I had never noticed this, until I started translating from Greek and realised Greeks can be really crappy as authors... arghhh. But anyway, I think our uses of irony/ειρωνεία are pretty similar, with specifically "tragic irony" making one interesting exception.


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## wonderment

Wow, that's great!--thanks very much, Vagabond.  



Vagabond said:


> That makes perfect sense. I would say that, in Modern Greek, you wouldn't quite use the word ειρωνεία in its Socratic sense (unless of course you qualified it as Σωκρατική ειρωνεία). For feigned ignorance to be considered as ειρωνεία, one would have to attach to it an intent to defy and mock - it would definitely have a negative feel (you feign ignorance in order to make me look like an idiot, what we'd say in casual modern Greek «με δουλεύεις» ).


In English as well, you'd have to say "Socratic irony" (not just "irony" by itself) to refer to the Socratic method. Same with "dramatic irony" to refer to the situation in which the audience knows more than the protagonists.


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## GreedyGreen

"It's the same as bronzy and goldy, only made of iron" - Baldrick

It still amazes me how many people do use irony to mean sarcasm in English - so much so that even dictionary.com list the incorrect use as the number 1 meaning. Sarcasm is not a subset of irony it's an entirely different thing.

Of course there are much worse definitions....
"it's like rain on your wedding day" - Alanis Morisette
Sorry, Alanis, that's what in English we call just "unlucky", not ironic (or even sarcastic).


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