# Urdu-Hindi: کہ - कि



## sapnachaandni

*urduu bolne vaale dosto, *
agar aap is mauzuu ke baare meN vazaahat karnaa chaaheN ki “کہ” aur “کے” ke talaffuz meN kyaa farq hai to kyaa kaheNge?
اردو بولنے والے دوستو، اگر آپ اس موضوع کے بارے میں وضاحت کرنا چاہیں کہ  “کہ” اور “کے” کے تلفظ میں کیا فرق ہے تو کیا کہیں گے؟



*hindii-bhaashii dosto, *
yadi aap is vishay ke baare meN vyaakhyaa karnaa chaaheN ki “कि” aur “की” ke uchchaaran meN kyaa antar hai to kyaa kaheNge?
हिंदी-भाषी दोस्तो, यदि आप इस विषय के बारे में व्याख्या करना चाहें कि “कि” और “की” के उच्चारण में क्या अंतर है तो क्या कहेंगे?

maiN *hindii* ke “कि” aur “की” ke baare meN is tarah kahuungii ki “कि” meN “इ” ह्रस्व (short) hai aur “की” meN “ई” दीर्घ (long). IPA se darshaanaa chaahuuN to aisaa hogaa: 
“कि” --- [ki] or [kɪ]
“की” --- [ki:]


hindii-bhaashii dosto, agar aap se puuchhaa jaa’e ki bolte samay kyaa “कि” aur “की” ke uchchaaran meN ye ह्रस्व-दीर्घ kaa antar sunaa’ii detaa hai ki nahiiN, to aap kyaa kaheNge?

maiN kahuuNgii ki kabhii sunaa’ii detaa hai aur kabhii nahiiN. arthaat, kuchh log dhyaan dete haiN ki “कि” bolte samay  “इ” kaa uchchaaran “ई” kii tarah दीर्घ na ho jaa’e, lekin kuchh log dhyaan nahiiN dete aur “कि” ko “की” kii tarah bolte haiN. kyaa aap is baat se sahmat haiN?


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## littlepond

सपनाचाँदनी जी, मेरे मतानुसार (और अनुभव से) कोई भी मूल हिन्दी भाषी "की" और  "कि" में उच्चारण का भेद अवश्य  करता है| रहा कि भेद क्या है, यह आप पहले ही जतला चुकी हैं|


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## Faylasoof

جی، عمومی طور پر ان دونوں شبدوں میں كوئی ظاہری فرق نہیں ہے، خصوصا جب گام ِ تكلم تیز ہو مگر بعض اوقات بعض لوگ   لفظ ِ "كہ   كے تلفظ میں ذرا ٹھیرتے ہیں اور "كے" كو تھوڑا کھینچتے ہیں​


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## sapnachaandni

धन्यवाद littlepond जी।

shukriyaa Faylasoof saahib.


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## marrish

اور میری طرف سے یہ بات ہے کہ .کہ. اور .کے. کے درمیان وزن کا فرق ہے، یعنی اول الذکر ہلکا ہے جبکہ کے بھاری
short and long۔


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## sapnachaandni

marrish said:


> اور میری طرف سے یہ بات ہے کہ .کہ. اور .کے. کے درمیان وزن کا فرق ہے، یعنی اول الذکر ہلکا ہے جبکہ کے بھاری
> short and long۔



to phir jis tarah hindii meN yahii "short-long" kaa farq कि aur की ke biich meN miltaa hai, urduu meN bhii yahii farq کہ aur کے ke biich meN maujuud hai.

shukriyaa marrish saahib.


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## Chhaatr

वैसे मैंने इन दोनों शब्दों के उच्चारण पर अब से पहले कोई विषेश ध्यान नहीं दिया था लेकिन अब जब मैं इसके बारे में सोचता हूँ तो इसी निष्कर्ष पर पहुँचता हूँ कि दोस्तों से बात करते समय बोली की रफ़्तार के कारण दोनों शब्दों के उच्चारण में अंतर सदैव उजागर नहीं हो पाता ।​


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## sapnachaandni

Chhaatr said:


> वैसे मैंने इन दोनों शब्दों के उच्चारण पर अब से पहले कोई विषेश ध्यान नहीं दिया था लेकिन अब जब मैं इसके बारे में सोचता हूँ तो इसी निष्कर्ष पर पहुँचता हूँ कि दोस्तों से बात करते समय बोली की रफ़्तार के कारण दोनों शब्दों के उच्चारण में अंतर सदैव उजागर नहीं हो पाता ।​


jii haaN, sahmat huuN Chhaatr jii.

jaise maiN ne bhii pahle post meN kahaa: yeh antar kabhii sunaa’ii detaa hai aur kabhii sunaa’ii nahiiN detaa; xaas kar ke: “बोली की रफ़्तार के कारण”


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## marrish

sapnachaandni said:


> to phir jis tarah hindii meN yahii "short-long" kaa farq कि aur की ke biich meN miltaa hai, urduu meN bhii yahii farq کہ aur کے ke biich meN maujuud hai.
> 
> shukriyaa marrish saahib.


_lagtaa hae yuuN hii hae jii. par shaayad urduu waalaa farq kuchh ziyaadah hii waaziH hae kyoN kih jab bhii maiN hiNdii suntaa huuN to yih ki kii se alag nahiiN hotaa. phir bhii ho saktaa hae yih mere urduu waale kaanoN kaa masa2lah hae. baat jo bhii ho ma3luum to paRtaa hae kih kyaa ki/kih hae aur kyaa ke/kii, siyaaq-o-sabaaq ke mutaabiq, donoN zabaabnoN meN_


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> اور میری طرف سے یہ بات ہے کہ .کہ. اور .کے. کے درمیان وزن کا فرق ہے، یعنی اول الذکر ہلکا ہے جبکہ کے بھاریshort and long۔​


یہ فرق بالكل درست ہے جسكی طرف میرا بھی اشارہ تھا لیكن عام گفتگو كے دوران بیشتر  یہ فرق ظاہر نہیں ہوتا بلكہ متن كا مفھوم خود اسكی ہدایت كرتا ہے كہ یہ كہ ہے یا كے​


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> Originally Posted by *sapnachaandni*
> to phir jis tarah hindii meN yahii "short-long" kaa farq कि aur की ke biich meN miltaa hai, urduu meN bhii yahii farq کہ aur کے ke biich meN maujuud hai.
> 
> shukriyaa marrish saahib.
> 
> 
> 
> _
> lagtaa hae yuuN hii hae jii. par shaayad urduu waalaa farq kuchh ziyaadah hii waaziH hae kyoN kih jab bhii maiN hiNdii suntaa huuN to yih ki kii se alag nahiiN hotaa. phir bhii ho saktaa hae yih mere urduu waale kaanoN kaa masa2lah hae. baat jo bhii ho ma3luum to paRtaa hae kih kyaa ki/kih hae aur kyaa ke/kii, siyaaq-o-sabaaq ke mutaabiq, donoN zabaabnoN meN_
Click to expand...

 In normal Urdu speech _mostly_ you can't tell the difference between _keh_ and _ke_ but the context tells you exactly which is applicable. Just adding to what I said above in Urdu. 

BTW, when some people wish to emphasize _keh_ versus _ke_ they even lightly pronounce the '_h_' at the end of _keh_. We have even discussed this in a very old thread. Not everyone uses the vowel length as the difference between the two at all times.


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## sapnachaandni

marrish saahib aur Faylasoof saahib, ek aur baar shukriyaa.

to phir jis tarah hindi meN "यह अंतर सदैव उजागर नहीं हो पाता", urduu meN bhii "عام گفتگو كے دوران بیشتر  یہ فرق ظاہر نہیں ہوتا".i


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## Qureshpor

My view is that the Urdu کہ is neither kih nor ke. I feel it is somewhere between the two.

As for Hindi ki vs kii, I hear both of them as "kii". Perhaps, it is my ears and not the speakers!

Please listen to this Ghalib Ghazal beginning with the line "muddat hu'ii hai yaar ko mihmaaN kiye hu'e" by whoever and then fill in the missing word. My request is addressed more to Hindi speakers than Urdu ones, who are possibly less likely to know the actual wording.

jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat...raat din
baiThe raheN tasavvur-i-jaanaaN kiye hu'e


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## Faylasoof

sapnachaandni said:


> marrish saahib aur Faylasoof saahib, ek aur baar shukriyaa.
> 
> to phir jis tarah hindi meN "यह अंतर सदैव उजागर नहीं हो पाता", urduu meN bhii "عام گفتگو كے دوران بیشتر  یہ فرق ظاہر نہیں ہوتا".i


 _jii nahiiN! is kaa sabab kuchh yeh hae keh aaj kal ke hindii goyaan "keh" kaa tallafuZ "ki" karte haiN lekin urdu goyaan "keh" ko 3aam Taur se ke(h) kahte haiN, goyaa 3aam urduu bolii meN "keh" aur "ke" kaa yaa to farq hii maHsuus nahiiN hotaa yaa farq jo taHriiran maujuud hae Sautii leHaaZ se be-Hadd daqiiq hae!

yeh sab kahne ke ba3d yeh kahnaa bhii Dharuurii hae keh bahot se urduu goyaan bhii "keh" ko "ki" hii kahte haiN (!), xuSuuSan jo hindostaan meN pale baRhe haiN.  _


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## marrish

_jii haaN kabhii kabhaar ''h'' kii sadaa de bhii jaatii hae, Faylasoof SaaHib kii baat ko agar duhraa'uuN. yih to hae magar jo hindostaan ke urduugoyaan kaa Haal hae vuh bataane kaa bahut shukriyah janaab. umed yahii hae aap un meN se nahiiN hoN ge!_


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## Faylasoof

marrish said:


> _jii haaN kabhii kabhaar ''h'' kii sadaa de bhii jaatii hae, Faylasoof SaaHib kii baat ko agar duhraa'uuN. yih to hae magar jo hindostaan ke urduugoyaan kaa Haal hae vuh bataane kaa bahut shukriyah janaab. umed yahii hae aap un meN se nahiiN hoN ge!_


 _janaab-e-waalaa chaahe maiN jahaaN rahuuN merii zabaan par "keh" ke siwaa "ki" kabhii nahiiN aayaa, magar "kii" jo ham sab meN mushtarak hae, wird-e-zbaaN hae! aap kii umaid* puurii ho ga'ii!!
(* alternative to ummaid / umiid / ummiid)_


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## Chhaatr

_Mere Urdu zabaan waale dostoN, merii baat kaa Ghalat matlab na nikaalnaa, magar ho sake to is kii vazaaHat zaruur karnaa ki (sorry, keh/kih) jo aap kehte haiN kyaa yeh Haqiiqat hai?  MaiN pichhle 10 mahiinoN se Urdu dramas dekh rahaa huuN par mujhe Urdu keh/kih aur Hindi ki meN ko'ii farq nahiiN meHsuus hu'aa.

mujhe lagtaa hai keh aap "Baal kii xaal" nikaal rahe haiN"._

(You might take this post to be inflammatory but I had to get it off my chest).


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## Qureshpor

I think you meant to write "mere Urdu zabaan vaale dosto"..a common mistake.

aap kii posT bi_lkul ishti3aal-aNgez nahiiN. jii haaN, yih ek Haqiiqat hai kih Hindi "ki" aur Urdu kih/keh meN zamiin aasmaan kaa farq hai. jaisaa kih maiN pahle 3arz kaqr chukaa huuN kih aap kaa "ki" mujhe hamaare (aap ke bhii aur hamaare bhii) lafz "kii" ke baraabar lagtaa hai.


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## Chhaatr

_Janaab maiN aap kii post samjhaa nahiiN.  mujhe vaaqa'ii in 10 mahiinoN meN "keh/kih" aur ki ke biich meN farq nahiiN sunaa'ii diyaa. Lage haath vazaaHat kartaa chaluuN kih meraa ishaarah talaffuz kii taraf hai na keh likhaa'ii kii taraf_


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## Wolverine9

Listening to Geo TV news, I've heard variation in the pronunciation of Urdu speakers.  Some pronounce kih/keh as 'ke' as Faylasoof mentioned earlier, but others pronounce it 'ki' just as in Hindi.


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## Qureshpor

janaab-i-3aalii, merii bhii mu'addabaanah guzaarish hai kih bandah Devanagri meN Hindi likhne ke taur-tariiqoN se ba-xuubii vaaqif hai aur meraa ishaarah bhii Hindi ki aur Urdu kih/keh ke taluffuz se vaabastah hai.

aap ne "dostoN"/"dosto" ke baare meN kuchh nahiiN farmayaa?


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## Faylasoof

Chhaatr said:


> _Mere Urdu zabaan waale dostoN, merii baat kaa Ghalat matlab na nikaalnaa, magar ho sake to is kii vazaaHat zaruur karnaa ki (sorry, keh/kih) jo aap kehte haiN kyaa yeh Haqiiqat hai?  MaiN pichhle 10 mahiinoN se Urdu dramas dekh rahaa huuN par mujhe Urdu keh/kih aur Hindi ki meN ko'ii farq nahiiN meHsuus hu'aa.
> 
> mujhe lagtaa hai keh aap "Baal kii xaal" nikaal rahe haiN"._
> 
> (You might take this post to be inflammatory but I had to get it off my chest).


 No! Not all inflammatory post Chaatrjii !! Perfectly OK to ask these kinds of questions.

_jaanaab, HuDhuur maiN taqriiban puure barr-e-saGhiir ke shumaalii HiSSoN meN ghuum-phir chukaa huuN aur go maiN xud yorap (Europe) meN ka'ii baras se sukuunat paziir huuN, saare mere xaandaan waale ab bhii hindostaan (UP aur bihaar) hii meN pale haiN aur sab hii ko to meN "ki" kahte sunaa, "keh" to shaayad hii, aur xuSuuSan nau-paud ko bilkul hii nahiiN. is kaa maqSad yeh hargiz nahiiN keh hindostaan men ko'ii "keh" nahiiN kahtaa, aur isii tarH ba3Dh afraad ko paakistaan meN maiN ne "keh" nahiiN balke "ki" se qariib-tar kaa talaffuZ isti3maal karte sunaa hae. jii,  jab kaan ek lafZ  kaa 3aadii ho jaataa hae to alfaafZ ke mutaGhayyar talaffuZ par fuaran dhyaan jaataa hae. 

muxtalif talaffuZ zabaanoN meN_ _to milte hii haiN! is par ham ko kyaa ranj-o-miHan ho! _


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## Chhaatr

Bahut xuub Faylasoof SaaHib, bajaa farmaate haiN aap. MaiN bhii Sirf yeh hii 3arz kar rahaa thaa keh "keh/kih" utnii tagRii Haqiiqat nahiiN hai jitnii keh 2+2=4 vaGhairah.


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## sapnachaandni

Qureshpor said:


> My view is that the Urdu کہ is neither kih nor ke. I feel it is somewhere between the two.
> Please listen to this Ghalib Ghazal beginning with the line "muddat  hu'ii hai yaar ko mihmaaN kiye hu'e" by whoever and then fill in the  missing word. My request is addressed more to Hindi speakers than Urdu  ones, who are possibly less likely to know the actual wording.
> 
> jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat...raat din
> baiThe raheN tasavvur-i-jaanaaN kiye hu'e



Qureshpor saahib, maiN ne ye sun liyaa. Noor Jahaan ne gaayaa thaa:
 jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat [ke]* raat din

* talaffuz ko sirf IPA se dikhaayaa jaa saktaa hai (Noor Jahaan ne is gaane meN is lafz kaa talaffuz aisaa hii kiyaa hai: [ke])

ye  talaffuz ([ke]) bilkul vahii talaffuz hai jo ham faarsii meN karte  haiN, matlab ham faarsii meN is lafz ko Thiik [ke] bolte haiN. ye [e] jo  [ke] meN bolaa jaataa hai [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) se alag hai.
[e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) taviil musavvitaa (طویل مصوتہ , दीर्घ स्वर) hai lekin [e] taviil (दीर्घ) nahiiN hai.


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## Chhaatr

Mu3aaf kareN dostoN, meraa iraadah urdu "keh/kih" ko Hindi "ki" se milaa ne kaa kata'ii nahiiN thaa.  

Could be the festivities got the better of me. What I meant to say was that in my last 10 months of Urdu lessons (including watching endless Urdu dramas) I could not spot any difference between oft repeated Urdu "keh/kih" and Hindi "ke" (Please do excuse my earlier "ki").

Requesting views of Urdu speakers on this post.


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## Faylasoof

Chhaatr said:


> Mu3aaf kareN dostoN, meraa iraadah urdu "keh/kih" ko Hindi "ki" se milaa ne kaa kata'ii nahiiN thaa.
> 
> Could be the festivities got the better of me. What I meant to say was that in my last 10 months of Urdu lessons (including watching endless Urdu dramas) I could not spot any difference between oft repeated Urdu "keh/kih" and Hindi "ke" (Please do excuse my earlier "ki").
> 
> Requesting views of Urdu speakers on this post.


 Chaatr SaaHib, I'm trying to think how best to explain this so allow me to put it this way:

मैं कहना चाहता हूँ कि  हिन्दी में हम हमेशा "*कि*" लिखते हैं, "*केह*" कभी नहीं, और "कि" और  "केह" कहने में फ़र्क़ है |

maiN kahnaa chaahtaa huuN ki Hindi meN ham hameshaa "ki" likhte haiN, "keh" kabhii nahiiN, aur "ki" aur "keh" kahne meN farq hai | 


As sapnachaandni SaaHibah has indicated the Urdu and Persian [ke] are the same and Urduphones with good and proper elocution would always say [ke]. 

So the correct Urdu pronunciation of, say, جو كہ is_ jo keh_ (keh = [ke], phonetically), which we write in Hindi as जो कि , and would be pronounced by most as _jo ki_ ( = جو كی, be it a truncated "ye") rather than what we say in Urdu proper as  _jo keh_ (i.e.[ke] phonetically). 

I think it has much to do with how we write it in Hindi (*कि*) means that usually Hindiphones will go for "ki" rather than not keh / [ke], but I'm sure exceptions exist. 

In Urdu we have  كہ (keh = [ke], phonetically) but, as I mentioned much earlier above, many _in speech_ do not always distinguish between  كہ  keh and كے  ke !  But I'm sure exceptions exist here too. In fact I try to by lightly pronouncing the 'h' at the end, apart from the truncated 'ye' in كہ keh to the longer on in كے ke. Urduphones with _good pronunciation practice_ would not be heard saying this as "ki", but I've heard this from Urduphones too and it reflects their training.  

Of course I understand what you are trying to say and I might assume you pronounce كہ as "ke(h) = [ke]_" _in speech but since we all write is as "ki" in Hindi, most people who write / speak Hindi tend to go for the latter ("ki_"_) pronunciation rather than the [ke], and these include _many of my relations in India,_ except those who have been instructed otherwise. So, both how we write (script) and how we are trained determines how we pronounce these just as any other word. Vocal training is esp. important.


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## sapnachaandni

javaab dene ke liye aap sab kaa shukriyaa


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## Wolverine9

Happy new year to all of you!

I should mention that _ki/keh_ has a dual etymology.  In the meaning 'or' it is of Sanskrit origin, and as a conjunction meaning 'that' it is of Persian origin.  It has other meanings too of course but these are perhaps the most common.  It is pronounced the same for all the meanings in Hindi.  Is there any difference in pronunciation for Urdu, especially with regard to the different etymology?


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## Faylasoof

Wolverine9 said:


> Happy new year to all of you!
> 
> I should mention that _ki/keh_ has a dual etymology.  In the meaning 'or' it is of Sanskrit origin, and as a conjunction meaning 'that' it is of Persian origin.  It has other meanings too of course but these are perhaps the most common.  It is pronounced the same for all the meanings in Hindi.  Is there any difference in pronunciation for Urdu, especially with regard to the different etymology?


 The Hindi  *कि  ki* we are discussing is the same usage (but different pronunciation) as the Urdu (from Persian) * كہ* *keh* ([*ke*] ) = _that_. 

For "or" (as in _either this or that_), in Urdu and Colloquial Hindi mostly we use *yaa یا* /* या*. So we are talking of two completely different words.

[Of course you are not referring to our own Indic _or. _I mean this: اور ओर = side, direction etc., for which we even have a thread!]

EDIT:

I just found this in Platts:

H  کی कै _kai, or के ke (i.q. ki), conj. Or, either:—kai-kai, Either—or; whether—or;—kai, conj. (Braj.)=ki, q.v._According to him this is pronounced as above: kai (kae) / ke and not ki. But to be honest I've never used it though others may have in this sense.


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## littlepond

Faylasoof said:


> For "or" (as in _either this or that_), in Urdu and Colloquial Hindi mostly we use *yaa یا* /* या*. So we are talking of two completely different words.



As far as Hindi is concerned, you are completely wrong: "ki" exists very much as "or" in Hindi. Example: करूँ *कि* न करूँ (Do I do *or* not do?). So, do you mean to say that Urdu doesn't use keh/ki in this sense?

Happy New Year to everyone!


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## marrish

littlepond said:


> As far as Hindi is concerned, you are completely wrong: "ki" exists very much as "or" in Hindi. Example: करूँ *कि* न करूँ (Do I do *or* not do?). So, do you mean to say that Urdu doesn't use keh/ki in this sense?
> 
> Happy New Year to everyone!


Happy New Year to you too with lots of peace and good feelings.
The reading of F. jii's post has not led me to such a conclusion. He just said that it is yaa mostly but has not negated the existence of ''ki'' in this sense. There is another thread about it too. 

I would say, as far as my personal Urdu is concerned, I would not say ''_karuuN ki (kih) nah karuuN_''. I would say _karuuN yaa nah karuuN_, but I would use kih when saying: _pataa nahiiN yih karuuN kih nahiiN._


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## Qureshpor

Here is a "celebrated" use of "kih" for the English word "or"...

vuh jo ham meN tum meN qaraar thaa tumheN yaad ho kih nah yaad ho
vahii, ya3nii va3dah nibaah kaa, tumheN yaad ho kih nah yaad ho

Momin (1800-1851)

In ordinary everyday Urdu speech, "kih" for "or" is not unknown by any stretch of the imagination but the more frequent choice is "yaa".


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## marrish

sapnachaandni said:


> Qureshpor saahib, maiN ne ye sun liyaa. Noor Jahaan ne gaayaa thaa:
> jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat [ke]* raat din
> 
> * talaffuz ko sirf IPA se dikhaayaa jaa saktaa hai (Noor Jahaan ne is gaane meN is lafz kaa talaffuz aisaa hii kiyaa hai: [ke])
> 
> ye  talaffuz ([ke]) bilkul vahii talaffuz hai jo ham faarsii meN karte  haiN, matlab ham faarsii meN is lafz ko Thiik [ke] bolte haiN. ye [e] jo  [ke] meN bolaa jaataa hai [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) se alag hai.
> [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) taviil musavvitaa (طویل مصوتہ , दीर्घ स्वर) hai lekin [e] taviil (दीर्घ) nahiiN hai.


_muHtaramah, yih maiN pahle 3arz kar chukaa huuN aur xwushii kii baat hae aap kaa iHsaas wahii hae. nannhii sii baat yih kih ham agar urduu likheN to musavvita*h* likheN ge aur wuh is liye kih yih aaxirii Sadaa taviil musavvitah nahiiN balkih ''short'' hae._


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## Qureshpor

sapnachaandni said:


> Qureshpor saahib, maiN ne ye sun liyaa. Noor Jahaan ne gaayaa thaa:
> jii DhuuNDtaa hai phir vahii fursat [ke]* raat din
> 
> * talaffuz ko sirf IPA se dikhaayaa jaa saktaa hai (Noor Jahaan ne is gaane meN is lafz kaa talaffuz aisaa hii kiyaa hai: [ke])
> 
> ye  talaffuz ([ke]) bilkul vahii talaffuz hai jo ham faarsii meN karte  haiN, matlab ham faarsii meN is lafz ko Thiik [ke] bolte haiN. ye [e] jo  [ke] meN bolaa jaataa hai [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) se alag hai.
> [e:] ( یائے مجہول , ए) taviil musavvitaa (طویل مصوتہ , दीर्घ स्वर) hai lekin [e] taviil (दीर्घ) nahiiN hai.


yahii ronaa to ham ro'e jaa rahe haiN kih Urdu کہ aur کے kii aavaazeN yaksaaN nahiiN. shukr hai is baat kaa bi_laaxir Thiik jagah pih nishaanah laga hai! 

aap ko bhii nayaa saal mubaarak ho!


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## sapnachaandni

*[e] ke baare meN ek aur savaal:*

jaise kahaa gayaa, [e] طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर *nahiiN* hai, lekin [e:] طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर hai.

[e:] jo  طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर  hai,  misaal ke taur par aise lafzoN meN talaffuz/ uchchaaran kiyaa jaataa hai: “ایک” /“एक” [e:k] , “دینا”/ “देना” [de:na:]

*urduu bolne vaale dosto, *
kyaa aap is baat se ittifaaq karte haiN ki “دردِ دل” ke talaffuz meN vo aavaz jo “درد” aur “دل” ke biich meN talaffuz kii jaatii hai, yahii [e] hai jo طویل مصوتہ *nahiiN* hai aur “کہ” meN “ک” ke saath bolaa jaataa hai?


*hindii-bhaashii dosto,*
kyaa aap is baat se sahmat haiN ki “दर्द-ए-दिल” ke uchchaaran meN vo aavaaz jo “दर्द” aur “दिल” ke biich meN uchchaarit hotii hai,  दीर्घ स्वर *nahiiN* hai, arthaat jis tarah “ए” kaa uchchaaran “एक” aur “देना” meN दीर्घ hai, “दर्द-ए-दिल” meN दीर्घ nahiiN hai?


*matlab:*
kyaa sab is baat se muttafiq/ sahmat haiN ki “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran *[dərdedil] *hai [dərde:dil] nahiiN?


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## littlepond

sapnachaandni jii, mujh garib ko to dono hii ek jaise "e" maloom padte hain, jahan tak hindi ka savaal hai. Ek prasiddh gana bhi hai, "dard-e-dil, dard-e-jigar", aur us gaane mein to "e" _super-deergh_ jaan padta hai!


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## sapnachaandni

dhanyavaad littlepond jii.

mujhe shak ho gayaa hai ki ye [dərdedil] hai yaa [dərde:dil], isii liye is ke baare meN savaal kiyaa hai. duusre dostoN kii raay kyaa hai?
bol-chaal meN “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran [dərdedil] hai yaa [dərde:dil]?


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## Qureshpor

mujh Ghariib ko bhii littlepond jii se ittifaaq hai kyoN kih mere kaan bhii izaafat ko yaa'e majhuul ke baraabar sun_te haiN. shaayad isii liye Urdu tarz-i-taHriir meN "havaa-i-dil" ko "havaae dil" likhaa jaataa hai. merii Haqiir raa'e meN kalaasiikii Farsi ke pesh kii aavaaz jis tarH majhuul vaa'o ban ga'ii hai isii tarH kalaasiikii Farsi kii izaafat, jis kaa saHiiH talaffuz kabhii "i" thaa, yaa-i-majhuul ban ke rah ga'ii hai. mulaaHizah farmaa'iye is laRii kii # post 12

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2187529&highlight=Classical+u+to+o

mujhe skuul ke bachchoN ke likhe hu'e Urdu meN namuune dekhne kaa ittifaaq hu'aa hai. un meN is qism ke alfaaz ko ba3z bachchoN ne baRii ye se likhaa hai. is kaa matlab yih hu'aa kih vuh bhii is aavaaz ko aisaa hii maHsuus karte haiN.

aap ab puuchheN gii phir kih, ke kyoN nahiiN. is kii vajh (mere xayaal meN) yih hai kih...kih meN aaxirii aavaaz -i- kii nahiiN samjhii jaatii aur "h" ek qism kii "rukaavaT" hai jo "-i-" ko "e" ban_ne se baaz rakh rahii hai.

is silsile meN niiche diye ga'e rabt meN # post 4 dekhiye.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2659398&highlight=Tajik+song


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> [...]EDIT: I just found this in Platts:
> 
> H کی कै _kai, or के ke (i.q. ki), conj. Or, either:—kai-kai, Either—or; whether—or;—kai, conj. (Braj.)=ki, q.v._According to him this is pronounced as above: kai (kae) / ke and not ki. But to be honest I've never used it though others may have in this sense.


This, to my mind seems to be a variation of "kyaa....kyaa" for whether...or.


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## sapnachaandni

shukriyaa Qureshpor saahib.

to phir [dərde:dil] hii bolaa jaataa hai [dərdedil] nahiiN.

vaise is shak kii vajah Dr. gyaan chand jain kii ek baat hai jo us kii ek kitaab meN likhii hu’ii hai (kitaab kaa naam: “لسانی مطالعے”).  is meN [e] aur [e:] ke baare meN kuchh kuchh baateN likhii ga’ii haiN  aur un dii ga’ii misaaloN meN se jin ke talaffuz IPA se dikhaa’e ga’e  haiN, ek misaal ye hai:

“صنعت براعت الاستہلال” --- [sən-ətebəra:-ətul-istehla:l]

is misaal meN “صنعت” aur “براعت” ke biich meN jo aavaaz hai usko [e:] se nahiiN balki [e]  se dikhaayaa gayaa hai, par baat ye hai ki maiN ne filmoN meN is aavaaz  ko [e:] sunaa hai. isii liye mujhe shak hu’aa thaa ki ab ye aavaaz [e]  hai yaa [e:].

Thiik hai, to phir aap kii raay ye hai ki ye aavaaz [e:] hai aur [dərde:dil] bolaa jaataa hai. mujhe bhii aisaa lagtaa hai, aur pataa nahiiN kyoN Dr. gyaan chand ne vaisaa likhaa thaa.


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## Qureshpor

^ mere xayaal meN maziid dostoN kii raa'e le kar hii aap ko ko'ii faisala karnaa chaahiye kyoNkih sirf do aadamiyoN kii raa'e Harf-i-aaxir nahiiN ho saktii. Dr. Gyaan Chand ko'ii chhoTii-moTii hastii nahiiN haiN.


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## sapnachaandni

^ intizaar hai duusre dostoN kii raay jaanne kaa.

aisaa bhii mumkin hai ki donoN talaffuz/ uchchaaran maujuud hoN. pataa nahiiN.


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## marrish

I'll paste the link to another thread in which my opinion is expressed because even if it is connected to the question about the pronunciation of کہ - कि, the connection is perhaps very remote.

Thread: Hindi: Transliteration of izaafat in Devanagari


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## sapnachaandni

^ shukriyaa marrish saahib


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## sapnachaandni

marrish said:


> [...] If you wish to transliterate correctly the izaafat on basis of Urdu, it would have to be a special character which is developped to depict a short [e] sound [...]. It is not a long vowel [e] which you can find in ''mere''. [...]


to phir marrish saahib, aap kii raay ye hai ki urduu meN “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran [dərdedil] hai, matlab aap is baat se ittifaaq karte haiN ki “درد”/ "दर्द" aur “دل”/ "दिल" ke biich meN jis aavaaz kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran kiyaa jaataa hai, vo aavaaz [e] hai jo طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर *nahiiN* hai. kyaa maiN saHiiH/ sahii samajh ga'ii huuN?


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## marrish

sapnachaandni said:


> to phir marrish saahib, aap kii raay ye hai ki urduu meN “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran [dərdedil] hai, matlab aap is baat se ittifaaq karte haiN ki “درد”/ "दर्द" aur “دل”/ "दिल" ke biich meN jis aavaaz kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran kiyaa jaataa hai, vo aavaaz [e] hai jo طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर *nahiiN* hai. kyaa maiN saHiiH/ sahii samajh ga'ii huuN?


_jii haaN mere nazdiik baat kuchh yuuN hii hae_.


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## mundiya

> EDIT: I just found this in Platts:
> 
> H کی कै _kai, or के ke (i.q. ki), conj. Or, either:—kai-kai, Either—or; whether—or;—kai, conj. (Braj.)=ki, q.v._According to him this is pronounced as above: kai (kae) / ke and not ki.  But to be honest I've never used it though others may have in this  sense.



As Platts indicates, "kai" and "ke" are the forms found in Braj.  He refers to the "ki" entry for the standard Hindi and Urdu form.  I have always pronounced कि as "ki" and so have others around me as far as I'm aware.  I will pay closer attention to see if we pronounce it any other way.

To account for the Urdu pronunciation, Platts should have written "kě" in addition to "ki".  He uses "ě" for the short e sound in others words, so why not this one?


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## Chhaatr

sapnachaandni said:


> *[e] ke baare meN ek aur savaal:*
> 
> jaise kahaa gayaa, [e] طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर *nahiiN* hai, lekin [e:] طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर hai.
> 
> [e:] jo  طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर  hai,  misaal ke taur par aise lafzoN meN talaffuz/ uchchaaran kiyaa jaataa hai: “ایک” /“एक” [e:k] , “دینا”/ “देना” [de:na:]
> 
> *urduu bolne vaale dosto, *
> kyaa aap is baat se ittifaaq karte haiN ki “دردِ دل” ke talaffuz meN vo aavaz jo “درد” aur “دل” ke biich meN talaffuz kii jaatii hai, yahii [e] hai jo طویل مصوتہ *nahiiN* hai aur “کہ” meN “ک” ke saath bolaa jaataa hai?
> 
> 
> *hindii-bhaashii dosto,*
> kyaa aap is baat se sahmat haiN ki “दर्द-ए-दिल” ke uchchaaran meN vo aavaaz jo “दर्द” aur “दिल” ke biich meN uchchaarit hotii hai,  दीर्घ स्वर *nahiiN* hai, arthaat jis tarah “ए” kaa uchchaaran “एक” aur “देना” meN दीर्घ hai, “दर्द-ए-दिल” meN दीर्घ nahiiN hai?
> 
> 
> *matlab:*
> kyaa sab is baat se muttafiq/ sahmat haiN ki “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran *[dərdedil] *hai [dərde:dil] nahiiN?


Sapnachandnijii maiN Hindi meN iskaa ucchaaraNR is tarah karuuNgaa:

दर्दे दिल

mujhe aNdaazah hai keh yeh talaffuz Urdu keh Hawaale se durust nahiiN.


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## Chhaatr

littlepond said:


> Ek prasiddh gana bhi hai, "dard-e-dil, dard-e-jigar", aur us gaane mein to "e" _super-deergh_ jaan padta hai!



Littlepondjii just saw this post.  Must admit, it is not only so funny but also so very true!


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## littlepond

Chhaatr said:


> Littlepondjii just saw this post.  Must admit, it is not only so funny but also so very true!


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## sapnachaandni

javaab dene ke liye sabhii dostoN kaa bahut bahut shukriyaa


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## marrish

sapnachaandni said:


> to phir marrish saahib, aap kii raay ye hai ki urduu meN “دردِ دل”/ “दर्द-ए-दिल” kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran [dərdedil] hai, matlab aap is baat se ittifaaq karte haiN ki “درد”/ "दर्द" aur “دل”/ "दिल" ke biich meN jis aavaaz kaa talaffuz/ uchchaaran kiyaa jaataa hai, vo aavaaz [e] hai jo طویل مصوتہ / दीर्घ स्वर *nahiiN* hai. kyaa maiN saHiiH/ sahii samajh ga'ii huuN?


Let's have some sound in this pronunciation thread. Please listen to these and share your perception (and anyone else
http://www.forvo.com/word/jama'at-i_islami/ (jamaa3at-e-islaamii)
http://www.forvo.com/word/%D8%B3%DA%A9%D9%86%D8%AF%D8%B1_%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%B8%D9%85/  (sikandar-e-a3zam)
http://www.forvo.com/word/وزیر_ثقافت/  (waziir-e-saqaafat)
http://www.forvo.com/word/اقوام_متحدہ/  (aqwaam-e-muttaHidah)


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## Qureshpor

ن۔۔م ۔۔راشد کی ایک نظم ہے جس کا عنوان ہے 

وزیرے چنیں

فرض کر لییجئے کہ اُن کی نظم کا عنوان

وزیرِچنیں 

ہوتا تو کیا آپ لوگ اِس کے تلفظ میں فرق کرتے؟


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## tonyspeed

mundiya said:


> As Platts indicates, "kai" and "ke" are the  forms found in Braj.  He refers to the "ki" entry for the standard Hindi  and Urdu form.  I have always pronounced कि as "ki" and so have others  around me as far as I'm aware.  I will pay closer attention to see if we  pronounce it any other way.
> 
> To account for the Urdu pronunciation, Platts should have written "kě"  in addition to "ki".  He uses "ě" for the short e sound in others words,  so why not this one?




To remove some of the shroud of  mystery over this, and to clear away interference caused by spelling, I  have listened to the conversation of the following actors/actresses to  see what they use in natural conversation (interviews).


Sameer (Banaras, UP, 1958) - ke
Neeraj Vora (Gujarati?)- ke
Karan Johar (Mumbai, father from Lahore, 1972)- ke
Komal Nahta (Mumbai, 1964) - ke
Ranbir Kapoor (Mumbai, Grandfather from Peshavar, 1982) - ke
Mahesh Bhatt (Mumbai, 1948 - Family Gujarati) - ke
Rohit Shetty (Mumbai or Mangalore - 1974) - ke
David Dhavan (Jhalandar, Punjab - 1955) - ke
Irshad Kamil (Malekotla, Punjab - 1971) - ke
Rishi Kapoor (Mumbai, 1952 - Father born near Peshawar) - ke
Sanjay Datt (Kasauli, Himachal Pradesh - 1959 Father from Chotala, West Punjab - Mother history confusing) - ke
Ajay Devgan (Mumbai, 1969- Punjabi Family) - ke
Anil Kapoor (Mumbai, 1956 - Father from Peshawar) - ke
Bony Kapoor (Meerut, UP - 1955 ) - ke
Nana Patekkar (Murud, Maharastra - 1951) - ki and ke
Om Puri (Haryana, 1949)- ke
Yuvraj Singh (Chandigarh, 1981) - ke
Lata Mangeshkar (Indore, MP 1929 - Family Marathi)- ke
Aamir Khan (Mumbai, 1985 - Father from UP)- ke
Alia Bhatt (1993, Father Gujarati) - ke
Raju Mavani () - ke
Sushant Singh (Bijnor, UP, 1972) - ke
Syed Ahmad Afzal () - ke
Sunny Deol (Punjab, 1956) - ke
Juhi Chawla (Hariyana, 1967)- ke
Sajib Khan () - ke
Salman Khan (Indore, MP - 1965, Grandfather from Afghanistan, mother Marathi) - ke
Naseeruddin Shah (Barabanki, UP - 1950 - Family from Meerut, UP) - ke
Ayan Mukherji (Kolkata, Bengali)- ke


Shahrukh Khan (New Delhi + Mangalore, 1965, Family Pathan)- ki
Rajpal Yadav (Shahjahanpur + Lucknow, 1971 ) -  ki
Sonam Kapoor (Mumbai, 1985) - ki
Kunal Khemu (Srinagar, Kashmir, 1983) - ki
Kailash Kher (Meerut, UP 1973 - Family Kashmiri)- ki
Emran Kashmi (Mumbai, 1979) - ki
Akshay Kumar (Amritsar, Punjab , 1967)- ki
Sonakshi Sinha (Patna, Bihar)- ki
Swanand Kikire (Indore, MP - Marathi) - ki
Sonu Nigam (Faridabad, Haryana, 1973) - ki
Mahie Gill (Chandigarh, 1975, Punjabi)- ki
Vashu Bhoynani () - ki
Jantiaz Ali (Jamshedpur, Jharkhand , 1971)-  ki
Rahul Jain (Jaipur) - ki
Gautam Gambir (New Dehli, 1981) - ki
Virat Kohli (New Dehli, 1988) - ki
Arvind Kejriwal (Haryana, 1968)- ki
Sameera Reddy (Rajamundry, AP 1980) - ki
Gul Panag (Chandigarh - 1979 - Punjabi educated)- ki
Santosh Shukla (Lucknow, UP) - ki
Suneel Shetty (Karnataka, Tulu Mother tongue ) - ki
Bobby Deol (Mumbai, 1967 - Panjabi Family) - ki
Rajkumar Hirnai (Nagpur, Maharashtra, 1962 - Sindhi family) - ki
Abhinav Kashyap (Obra, UP - 1974) - ki
KeyKay Menon (Kerala-Mumbai-Pune, 1966, Parents from Kerala)- ki
Priyanka Chopra (Jamshedpur, Jharkand (Bihar), 1982, Father Punjabi - Mother Bihari)- ki
Amitabh Bachchan (1942, Allahabad, UP) - ki


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## Wolverine9

Thanks for the list.  Must have taken you quite a bit of time to study all of their speech patterns.  Do they pronounce "ke" with a "short e" or a "long e"?

Either Rishi Kapoor's birthdate is wrong, or he started acting before he was born.


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## tonyspeed

Wolv, I have seen that there is variation in the length.  The greatest problem is that in the normal case,  the sound is usually short.  Most of the time,  to be sure I had to wait until they pronounced  it sufficiently long enough where I could be certain it was ke or ki. Usually,  this tends to happen when the speaker is thinking about what to say next and elongates the sound as a delay tactic.  It is amazingly hard to judge with certainty which sound it is if said rapidly. 

Irfan Khan I gave up on.  His  ki/ke was always so fast  that I could never tell with absolute certainty.  I was close to assuming it was ke though. He is from Jaipur. I at first was avoiding Muslims,  but I realized being Muslim was not necessarily a sure predictor of ki vs ke. 

Also,  equally frustrating was the fact that some speakers avoid ki in colloquial speech,  while others use it very frequently.


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## Qureshpor

I don't believe it matters where the individuals are from in terms of geographical location nor does it matter what faith group they adhere to. The factor that is important is the time factor. Those individuals who grew up in an Urdu environment (and most of them probably could read and write Urdu too) would pronounce "kih" with a short e and not "ki". This was the case even as "recent" as the last 60s and early 70s. Then we get to a stage when actors are coming through the Hindi educational system in which "ki" is taught and therefore pronounced by people such as Amitabh Bachchan. If anyone were to listen to the "kih" of the following personalities, they would not find them pronouncing "ki".

Dilip Kumar, Raj Kapoor, Ashok Kumar, Bharat Bhushan, Raj Kumar, Dev Anand, Balraj Sahini, Ranjendra Kumar, Dharmendra, Pran, Rehman.....

Nargis, Vaijayanti Mala, Madhobala, Meena Kumari, Nutan, Sadhana................

Kundan Lal Saigal, Durrani, Muhammad Rafi, Mukesh, Hemant Kumar, Talat Mahmood, Kishore Kumar, Manna Dey, Mahendra Kapoor 

Shamshad Begum, Nur Jahan, Lata Mangeshkar, Suraiyya, Asha Bhonsle.....


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## marrish

Anyway I am grateful to tonyspeed SaaHib for his research, it must have been interesting but dire because "kih, ki, ke" - I mean one thing - is pronouced as a short vowel in both Hindi and Urdu. But in Hindi I heard "kii", long and this is strange to me.


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## sapnachaandni

Thank you tonyspeed jii, for your research.


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## Qureshpor

Qureshpor said:


> ن۔۔م ۔۔راشد کی ایک نظم ہے جس کا عنوان ہے
> 
> وزیرے چنیں
> 
> فرض کر لییجئے کہ اُن کی نظم کا عنوان
> 
> وزیرِچنیں
> 
> ہوتا تو کیا آپ لوگ اِس کے تلفظ میں فرق کرتے؟


Can any other Urdu speaking person answer this question please? It was originally addressed to sapnachaandni SaaHibah.


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