# Kosher and Trife (taref)



## ThomasK

Could anyone tell me whether that is indeed the opposite of "kosher"? Does it then mean "unclean" or ... ? Is it used in some other meaning ? And to conclude: what could be the origin? It is not Yiddish, I was told, it was said to be Aramese or Hebrew...  (And is "kosher" ever used in another meaning than "clean")


----------



## Nunty

The Yiddish pronunciation is _treif_ (rhymes with strafe). In Hebrew it is _taref_ טרף, which is probably related to the words for _prey, _both noun and verb. Someone else who is better at etymology will be able to tell you more.


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks a lot for the information. Could you give me information on when it is used? I suppose it is way less common than "kosher", or is it ?


----------



## Nunty

It depends on who is speaking. I think that generally in Israel we are more likely to say לא כשר (_lo kasher_) "not kosher", but that in religious circles they may be more likely to say טרף. I am not sure, though. The religious circles I knew used a lot of Yiddish.


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks again. Just by the way: is it a synonym of "sin" to you?


----------



## Nunty

ThomasK said:


> Thanks again.Just by the way: is it a synonym of "sin" to you?


No, and it was not when I was an Orthodox Jew, either. It means something that does not abide by the laws of _kashrut_.


----------



## yuval9

sin is חטא (pronounced like "Khet" in israel)


----------



## ThomasK

I see, I'll look up both Kashrut and Khet! Thanks ! I thought 'not kosher' was something like wrong or sinful, but I guess things are more complicated...


----------



## Nunty

Some English speakers use "not kosher" similarly to what you suggest - but that is not Hebrew.


----------



## ThomasK

Indeed, I realize that now... Thanks for all the information!


----------



## amikama

Nunty said:


> The Yiddish pronunciation is _treif_ (rhymes with strafe). In Hebrew it is _taref_ טרף, which is probably related to the words for _prey, _both noun and verb. Someone else who is better at etymology will be able to tell you more.


And what is the Yiddish pronunciation of טריפה (as in זה טריפה וזה נבלה)?


----------



## Nunty

_treifa _is how they said it in my family.


----------



## amikama

Nunty said:


> _treifa _is how they said it in my family.


Thank you!


----------



## rubidou

Nunty said:


> The Yiddish pronunciation is _treif_ (rhymes with strafe). In Hebrew it is _taref_ טרף, which is probably related to the words for _prey, _both noun and verb. Someone else who is better at etymology will be able to tell you more.



טָרֵף
that's exactly what it's derived from _(prey, carrion)_ [source: Wikipedia]


----------



## ThomasK

I am starting to wonder while reading your exchange: could you render "kosher"/ "treif" in English, not just translating it literally but starting from your 'experience'/ intuition? Here it seems like a synonym of 'good'/'bad', but I can imagine there is a 'ring of morality' about it, or isn't there? (So: 'good'/'bad' but in what sense ?)


----------



## Nunty

"Kosher" (_kasher_ is how it's pronounced in modern Israeli Hebrew, with the accent on the second syllable) means "according to regulations", most usually referring to Jewish dietary regulations or other regulations of Jewish religious law. It is associated with ritual purity. I stress _ritual_ purity; it is not related to cleanliness or dirtiness.

Forgive me, Thomas, but I think you are making assumptions based on the loan word _kosher_ in English. You might want to consider asking about how that word is used in English in the appropriate forum.

EDIT: Here is one example of such use from English Only: kosher trade for...


----------



## ThomasK

Thanks a lot, but indeed, I had been wondering whether the use of "kosher" in Hebrew had been extended to mean simply good and bad, due to what I read in this post. That is why I asked that question, whereas I know it had to do with ritual purity indeed (I just had a kosher lunch at Hoffy's in Antwerp...).


----------



## Nunty

ThomasK said:


> Thanks a lot, but indeed, I had been wondering whether the use of "kosher" in Hebrew had been extended to mean simply good and bad, due to what I read in #15. [...]


Only when used metaphorically.


----------



## berndf

Nunty said:


> The Yiddish pronunciation is _treif_ (rhymes with strafe). In Hebrew it is _taref_ טרף, which is probably related to the words for _prey,_*both noun and verb*. Someone else who is better at etymology will be able to tell you more.


And the adjective is _treife_ /tʁeɪfə/*, am I right?
_____________________________________
* /e/ somewhere between cardinal [e] and [ɛ], like in Hebrew, Spanish or English


----------



## amikama

Hi, 

The discussion about the idiom זה נבלה וזה טריפה has now its own thread.

amikama
moderator


----------



## Ali Smith

Where did the word _kosher_ come from? Is it an alternative pronunciation of כשר _kasher_? The latter is obviously an active participle, just like כבד _kaved _(heavy). Actually, on second thought, it could also be a verb, just like _kaved_ could also be a verb meaning "He is/was/became heavy.".


----------



## Drink

Kosher is the Ashkenazi pronunciation of kasher.


----------

