# mi sento come se...



## F4sT

ciao raga, mi serve un aiutino.

"... mi sento come se non ti conoscessi abbastanza bene [...] soltanto quando sentirò dentro di me, osservando magari delle situazioni, di percepire con chiarezza quello che in quel momento tu avuresti pensato, capito e fatto.. potrò dirti di conoscerti veramente..."

grazie dell'aiuto


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## Scrumpals

"i feel like you don't know yourself well enough... only when i will feel within, maybe observing some situations, to perceive with clarity that which you thought, understood, and did...  could I tell you to truly know yourself. 

Hai voluto una traduzione??

Posso provare un altra cosa o essere di piu' aiuto? 
Steven


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## shamblesuk

As an inexperienced learner I'm going to have a real stab at this one. Here goes:

'I feel as if I don't know you very well, only when I feel you inside me, perhaps looking at some of the situations, to understand clearly what you would have thought, know and done....will I be able to tell you that I truly know you... 

Anche: raga = ragazzi??

Un stanco shamblesuk



			
				F4sT said:
			
		

> ciao raga, mi serve un aiutino.
> 
> "... mi sento come se non ti conoscessi abbastanza bene [...] soltanto quando sentirò dentro di me, osservando magari delle situazioni, di percepire con chiarezza quello che tu avuresti pensato, capito e fatto.. potrò dirti di conoscerti veramente..."
> 
> grazie dell'aiuto


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## F4sT

sì sì sì sìì 
volevo la traduzionee  grazie mille 

"Posso provare un altra cosa o essere di piu' aiuto? "
non ho capito bene cosa intendi.

(mi sento come se non ti conoscessi ... intendevo IO non tu.. quindi  non sbaglio se dico così no?: ..i don't know you well enough.. 
grazie ^_^


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## F4sT

opss non avevo visto che shamblesuk mi aveva risposto 
grazie milleeee a tutti e duee 
(-raga: sì lo uso come un'abbreviazione di ragazzi )


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## Scrumpals

F4sT said:
			
		

> sì sì sì sìì
> 
> 
> "Posso provare un altra cosa o essere di piu' aiuto? "
> non ho capito bene cosa intendi.
> 
> (mi sento come se non ti conoscessi ... intendevo IO non tu.. quindi non sbaglio se dico così no?: ..i don't know you well enough..
> grazie ^_^


 
Non ho capito se io ti avessi dato la risposta che stavi cercando o no.  E mi dispiace che non ho capito che stavi dicendo io invece di tu...  Ora ha piu' senso.

steven


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## Adel

mi sento come se non ti conoscessi abbastanza bene [...] soltanto quando sentirò dentro di me, osservando magari delle situazioni, di percepire con chiarezza quello che in quel momento tu avuresti pensato, capito e fatto.. potrò dirti di conoscerti veramente..."

I_ feel as if I didn't know you well enough,[...] only when I'll feel deep inside myself, maybe by observing certain situations, what you might have thought, understood and done, I'll be able to say that I truly know you._

Only an idea!


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## elroy

Adel said:
			
		

> mi sento come se non ti conoscessi abbastanza bene [...] soltanto quando sentirò dentro di me, osservando magari delle situazioni, di percepire con chiarezza quello che in quel momento tu avuresti pensato, capito e fatto.. potrò dirti di conoscerti veramente..."
> 
> I_ feel as if I didn't know you well enough,[...] only when I'll feel deep inside myself, maybe by observing certain situations, what you might have thought, understood and done, I'll be able to say that I truly know you._
> 
> Only an idea!


 
I like your suggestion the best. 

I would suggest a few modifications, though... 

-"When I will" is weak English. The present tense should be used.
-"I feel deep inside" is fine. "Myself" is redundant.
-I don't think you did "di percepire con chiarezza quello che in quel momento tu avuresti pensato" justice.  
-You should use inverted word order in the last part of the sentence ("will I").
-It says "dir*ti*" so I would suggest "tell you" instead of just "say."

My suggestion: 

*I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Only when I feel deep inside, perhaps by observing certain situations, that I have a clear perception of what you thought, understood, and did at that moment, will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.*


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## Adel

Ciao Elroy.

I have taken your suggestions on board and I really like the final "product"!

Well done.


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## F4sT

vero vero, è semplicemente stupendo il "prodotto finito"...
Grazie a tutti.
_d(^_-)b_


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## stephenwallis

It sounds strange to me to hear "I feel" (present tense) together with "I didn't know" (past tense). To me either of these would sound better: 

I felt as though I didn't know you well enough... [past tense]
*I feel as though I don't know you well enough... *[present tense]
Choice will clearly come down to the way that the person felt about things at the time of writing... and going by the end of the sentence, my preference is for the second option above.

I'm also finding it difficult to link up the parts of the second sentence in my mind. Not knowing enough Italian I'm not sure on the desired intention...

"soltanto quando sentirò dentro di me" - is this a process of introspection, of examining oneself? would it not be better to say "only when I look within myself" or "only when I look within"
"osservando magari delle situazioni" - is this a similar examination going on at the same time? perhaps you could say "only when I look within myself and at the things that have happened" or "only when I look within and at other situations"
"di percepire con chiarezza..." - is this still part of the "only..." or a consequence to it? which of these is more correct (brackets and *bold* added for clarity):
"[[it's only when I look within - and at the things that have happened - *and* perceive with clarity *that which* you have thought, understood and done,]] [[*that* I will be able to say that I truly know you.]]"
"[[it's only when I look within - and at the things that have happened]] - [[*that I will* perceive with clarity *what *you have thought, understood and done, *and that* I will be able to say that I truly know you.]]"

"di percepire" - who is the person who is doing the "perceiving"? is it the person speaking or the person spoken about?
I guess I have more questions than answers so apologies if this doesn't really help.

Steve


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## F4sT

stephenwallis said:
			
		

> It sounds strange *[...]*
> I guess I have more questions than answers so apologies if this doesn't really help.
> 
> Steve


 
_"di percepire" - who is the person who is doing the "perceiving"? is it the person speaking or the person spoken about?_

ciao ^_^
la persona che percepisce sono io , e dato che il verbo percepire è un po'.. uhm come dire... "passivo" .. ciòè, è qualcosa che sento dentro.. un qualcosa su cui io non posso oppormi.. (involontario..) quindi non c'è effettivamente qualcuno che *fa *l'azione.

lo so  non è facile tradurre un concetto così.. e in più quella proposizione incidentale complica ulteriormente la comprensione del testo.. 

*I feel as though I don't know you well enough... *[present tense]

è vero! sarebbe più corretto usare il presente 

_soltanto quando sentirò dentro di me" - is this a process of introspection, of examining oneself? would it not be better to say "only when I look within myself" or "only when I look within"_

significa qualcosa tipo: soltanto quando mi guarderò dentro..? 
non era esattamente quello che volevo dire 

_"osservando magari delle situazioni" - is this a similar examination going on at the same time? perhaps you could say "only when I look within myself and at the things that have happened" or "only when I look within and at other situations" _
_"di percepire con chiarezza..." - is this still part of the "only..." or a consequence to it? which of these is more correct_

"osservando magari......." volevo intendere situazioni, avvenimenti.. che avurò modo di osservare e rifletere in futuro.

grAz|e ^_____________________^


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## elroy

F4sT said:
			
		

> *I feel as though I don't know you well enough... *[present tense]
> 
> è vero! sarebbe più corretto usare il presente


 
No.

"I feel as though I *didn't* know" you is correct - and the most appropriate verb form, at that.

It is a subjunctive that does not actually refer to the past. It refers to the theoretical situation that is compared to the present situation. I am not sure whether I know you or not, but I certainly _feel _as though I _didn't_.

Steve, you're a native speaker of English - I'm surprised this struck you as odd!


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## elroy

Addressing your other points... 



			
				stephenwallis said:
			
		

> It sounds strange to me to hear "I feel" (present tense) together with "I didn't know" (past tense). To me either of these would sound better:
> 
> I felt as though I didn't know you well enough... [past tense]
> *I feel as though I don't know you well enough... *[present tense]
> Choice will clearly come down to the way that the person felt about things at the time of writing... and going by the end of the sentence, my preference is for the second option above.


 
I responded to this point in my previous thread. 



> I'm also finding it difficult to link up the parts of the second sentence in my mind. Not knowing enough Italian I'm not sure on the desired intention...
> 
> "soltanto quando sentirò dentro di me" - is this a process of introspection, of examining oneself? would it not be better to say "only when I look within myself" or "only when I look within"


 
No. The verb "sentire" means "to feel" and not "to look." 




> "osservando magari delle situazioni" - is this a similar examination going on at the same time? perhaps you could say "only when I look within myself and at the things that have happened" or "only when I look within and at other situations"



The two events are occurring simultaneously, but they do not both involve looking - as explained above.




> "di percepire con chiarezza..." - is this still part of the "only..." or a consequence to it? which of these is more correct (brackets and *bold* added for clarity):
> 
> "[[it's only when I look within - and at the things that have happened - *and* perceive with clarity *that which* you have thought, understood and done,]] [[*that* I will be able to say that I truly know you.]]"
> "[[it's only when I look within - and at the things that have happened]] - [[*that I will* perceive with clarity *what *you have thought, understood and done, *and that* I will be able to say that I truly know you.]]"



The meaning is "when I feel deep inside *that I have perceived*." 







> "di percepire" - who is the person who is doing the "perceiving"? is it the person speaking or the person spoken about?



The person speaking.


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## stephenwallis

F4sT and elroy - thanks for your comments. I am happy to be corrected on both Italian and English. My comments are not aimed at getting the most literal of translations but rather one that sounds natural and is easily understood.

It might be common practice in certain languages to put together really long sentences with complex concepts (this is often the case in French where it is considered eloquent). In my experience when this happens in English it requires careful use of punctuation and conjunctions. My preference is usually a less elegant sentence that is shorter and more understandable.

elroy, perhaps "I feel as though I didn't know..." is technically correct but it still leaves me with confusion. The context here doesn't make it clear to me what the person felt at the time of speaking or when it is that the speaker felt they didn't know the other person. Perhaps the "[...]" from the original text will have given greater clarity. Or perhaps this is already clear to the listener from a previous conversation. Or perhaps the confusion is intended!



			
				elroy said:
			
		

> The verb "sentire" means "to feel" and not "to look."


I realise this is certainly the literal translation but was uncertain of the context of its use. What is needing to be felt inside? You suggest later in your post that it is a "perception" that needs to be "felt"... this sounds redundant... surely you either "perceive" something or "feel" something but you wouldn't "feel a perception" or "perceive a feeling". Maybe this is possible in Italy or in America?

Equally I don't think that someone can "feel" or "perceive" what someone else "thinks" (i.e. "feel a thought" or "perceive a thought"). Perhaps more useful verbs would be "to know", "to understand", "to relate to", "to sympathise with", etc and might be better than "to feel" or "to perceive"?

On the whole, while your translation might be very accurate, it is the substance of the message that I am confused with. What is REALLY trying to be said? What is the purpose of the smoke and mirrors of complex language? Is it not better to say it as it is - say what is felt and what is not...

"I feel that I don't know you well enough. I don't know when I'll be able to say that I truely know you because ..."



			
				F4sT said:
			
		

> è vero! sarebbe più corretto usare il presente


I'm glad you're happy to use the present tense.



			
				F4sT said:
			
		

> non era esattamente quello che volevo dire


Hopefully you can understand my confusion over what is "being felt" and perhaps you can come up with another way of expressing what you're trying to say?



			
				F4sT said:
			
		

> volevo intendere situazioni, avvenimenti.. che avurò modo di osservare e rifletere in futuro.


I'm sorry but this is adding to my confusion over what is really trying to be said. 

Sorry to have not really helped with points of translation.  

Steve


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## F4sT

stephenwallis said:
			
		

> F4sT and elroy - thanks *[...]*
> Sorry to have not really helped with points of translation.
> 
> Steve


 
ciao a tutti raga, (^_-)
uhm 


			
				stephenwallis said:
			
		

> The context here doesn't make it clear to me what the person felt at the time of speaking or when it is that the speaker felt they didn't know the other person.


*elroy* forse ho capito cosa intendi, forse è vero  anche se "sento" è presente, il fatto di "non conoscerti" non è un qualcosa che è iniziato esattamente ora.. ma nel passato.. ma che tutt'ora sento, il fatto che in italiano, in questi casi si usi il presente ("conoscessi") forse fa confusione nella traduzione all'inglese..



			
				stephenwallis said:
			
		

> surely you either "perceive" something or "feel" something but you wouldn't "feel a perception" or "perceive a feeling". Maybe this is possible in Italy or in America?


 
questa è una domanda da 1000000 di €... qui andiamo oltre ad un aspetto prettamente linguistico.. mah per me si può dire in entrambei i modi.. e non credo che significhino la stessa cosa. 



			
				stephenwallis said:
			
		

> What is the purpose of the smoke and mirrors of complex language?
> Is it not better to say it as it is - say what is felt and what is not...
> 
> "I feel that I don't know you well enough. I don't know when I'll be able to say that I truely know you because ..."


 
eh sì  forse è davvero troppo contorto



			
				stephenwallis said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but this is adding to my confusion over what is really trying to be said.


 
quello che volevo dire è che.. uhm 
"soltanto quando sentirò dentro di me" è un qualcosa che deve ancora accedere, e sempre nel futuro avurò modo di (occasione di ) osservare delle situazioni.. e contemporaneamente quando starò rifflettendo e osservando quei episodi se sentissi con chiarezza "quello che in quel momento tu avuresti pensato, capito e fatto..potrò dirti di conoscerti veramente..."

lo so che può sembrare assurdo.. ma solo quando ho questa sensazione di pienezza mi sento davvero vicino a quella persona.. (per me per conoscere una persona devi vedere il suo comportamento in svariate situazioni)


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## elroy

stephenwallis said:
			
		

> F4sT and elroy - thanks for your comments. I am happy to be corrected on both Italian and English. My comments are not aimed at getting the most literal of translations but rather one that sounds natural and is easily understood.
> 
> It might be common practice in certain languages to put together really long sentences with complex concepts (this is often the case in French where it is considered eloquent). In my experience when this happens in English it requires careful use of punctuation and conjunctions. My preference is usually a less elegant sentence that is shorter and more understandable.
> 
> elroy, perhaps "I feel as though I didn't know..." is technically correct but it still leaves me with confusion. The context here doesn't make it clear to me what the person felt at the time of speaking or when it is that the speaker felt they didn't know the other person. Perhaps the "[...]" from the original text will have given greater clarity. Or perhaps this is already clear to the listener from a previous conversation. Or perhaps the confusion is intended!
> 
> 
> I realise this is certainly the literal translation but was uncertain of the context of its use. What is needing to be felt inside? You suggest later in your post that it is a "perception" that needs to be "felt"... this sounds redundant... surely you either "perceive" something or "feel" something but you wouldn't "feel a perception" or "perceive a feeling". Maybe this is possible in Italy or in America?
> 
> Equally I don't think that someone can "feel" or "perceive" what someone else "thinks" (i.e. "feel a thought" or "perceive a thought"). Perhaps more useful verbs would be "to know", "to understand", "to relate to", "to sympathise with", etc and might be better than "to feel" or "to perceive"?
> 
> On the whole, while your translation might be very accurate, it is the substance of the message that I am confused with. What is REALLY trying to be said? What is the purpose of the smoke and mirrors of complex language? Is it not better to say it as it is - say what is felt and what is not...
> 
> "I feel that I don't know you well enough. I don't know when I'll be able to say that I truely know you because ..."
> 
> 
> I'm glad you're happy to use the present tense.
> 
> 
> Hopefully you can understand my confusion over what is "being felt" and perhaps you can come up with another way of expressing what you're trying to say?
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but this is adding to my confusion over what is really trying to be said.
> 
> Sorry to have not really helped with points of translation.
> 
> Steve


 
Hi Steve,

Many thanks for your valuable contributions.

However, I think you may be reading too much into it. The sentence does not say "feel a perception" but rather "feel that I have perceived." That, to me, is completely clear and unambiguous.

Furthermore, you can indeed perceive what somebody thinks. "Perception" is a very broad category that simply indicates some sort of internal grasp of a certain phenomenon.

I also understand that English frowns upon longer constructions, but I don't think this one is that long - even by English standards.

Finally, one modest piece of advice: please be conscious of the danger involved in sacrificing the integrity of the original text by focusing almost obsessively on producing as "liberal" a translation as possible.


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## elroy

F4sT said:
			
		

> ciao a tutti raga, (^_-)
> uhm
> 
> *elroy* forse ho capito cosa intendi, forse è vero  anche se "sento" è presente, il fatto di "non conoscerti" non è un qualcosa che è iniziato esattamente ora.. ma nel passato.. ma che tutt'ora sento, il fatto che in italiano, in questi casi si usi il presente ("conoscessi") forse fa confusione nella traduzione all'inglese..


 
The mood here is subjunctive.  The imperfect subjunctive refers to a condition that is possibly contrary to fact.  It does not have to refer to a specfic tense.  In fact, in this case the intended meaning is "I feel as though I did not know you *at the present time*."

Another example:

If I were rich (*now*), I would be happy.



> questa è una domanda da 1000000 di €... qui andiamo oltre ad un aspetto prettamente linguistico.. mah per me si può dire in entrambei i modi.. e non credo che significhino la stessa cosa.


 
"I feel that I have perceived," as I stated above, is perfectly acceptable English - and corresponds quite well to the original Italian. 





> eh sì  forse è davvero troppo contorto
> 
> 
> 
> quello che volevo dire è che.. uhm
> "soltanto quando sentirò dentro di me" è un qualcosa che deve ancora accedere, e sempre nel futuro avurò modo di (occasione di ) osservare delle situazioni.. e contemporaneamente quando starò rifflettendo e osservando quei episodi se sentissi con chiarezza "quello che in quel momento tu avuresti pensato, capito e fatto..potrò dirti di conoscerti veramente..."


 
That is, indeed, what my English suggestion expresses. 




> lo so che può sembrare assurdo.. ma solo quando ho questa sensazione di pienezza mi sento davvero vicino a quella persona.. (per me per conoscere una persona devi vedere il suo comportamento in svariate situazioni)


 
Completely logical.


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## leenico

> I feel as if I didn't know you well enough,[...] only when I'll feel deep inside myself, maybe by observing certain situations, what you might have thought, understood and done, I'll be able to say that I truly know you.


I tweaked it a bit. Using the word "*feel*" twice seems redundant. I also broke it up into two sentences which makes for easier reading. 

*I feel as if I didn't know you well enough, only what I sense deep inside of me. Maybe by observing certain situations, what you might have thought, understood and done, will I be able to say that I truly know you.*


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## elroy

leenico said:
			
		

> I tweaked it a bit. Using the word "*feel*" twice seems redundant. I also broke it up into two sentences which makes for easier reading.
> 
> *I feel as if I didn't know you well enough, only what I sense deep inside of me. Maybe by observing certain situations, what you might have thought, understood and done, will I be able to say that I truly know you.*


 
Unfortunately, the part in red is not what the original in Italian is saying. 

My version was two sentences - I don't see how you "broke it up."  

Thanks for the attempt at tweaking it, though.


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## leenico

elroy said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, the part in red is not what the original in Italian is saying.
> 
> My version was two sentences - I don't see how you "broke it up."
> 
> Thanks for the attempt at tweaking it, though.


I wasn't sure what *[...]* this meant. But after each seperate phrase there is a comma which to me means it is only one sentence. I know my interpretation is not 100% literal, but some of the translations that I have read are so far fetched that it seems taking a little license is the norm.


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## elroy

leenico said:
			
		

> I wasn't sure what *[...]* this meant. But after each seperate phrase there is a comma which to me means it is only one sentence. I know my interpretation is not 100% literal, but some of the translations that I have read are so far fetched that it seems taking a little license is the norm.


 
This is what I suggested in post #8:

*I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Only when I feel deep inside, perhaps by observing certain situations, that I have a clear perception of what you thought, understood, and did at that moment, will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.*

I'm not against taking a little license where necessary, but what you suggested altered the meaning of the sentence.

Can we break it up?  I'm not sure.  Maybe changing some of the commas to other punctuation marks might make it more comprehensible:

*I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Only when I feel deep inside - perhaps by observing certain situations - that I have a clear perception of what you thought, understood, and did at that moment, will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.*

Further comments are welcome.* *


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## leenico

> Only when I feel deep inside, perhaps by observing certain situations


This to me made no sense. What I changed it to made more sense to me. That is why I made the change. I hope I did not offend you.


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## elroy

leenico said:
			
		

> This to me made no sense. What I changed it to made more sense to me. That is why I made the change. I hope I did not offend you.


 
"Perhaps by observing certain situations" was a parenthetical insertion.  Taking it out, you are left with

"Only when I feel deep inside that I have a clear perception..."

I'm not at all offended.  I just don't understand the root of your objections.


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## stephenwallis

elroy said:
			
		

> Finally, one modest piece of advice: please be conscious of the danger involved in sacrificing the integrity of the original text by focusing almost obsessively on producing as "liberal" a translation as possible.


Humbly accepted... while I am aware that this forum might be here more for the pure translation, I believe that words are meant to be understood and preferably without confusion. This particular text might be easily understood in Italian but in my opionion the English version leaves room for misunderstanding and might require a lot of clarification.

I hope I haven't offended you in offering some suggestions of simplification. I know that my suggestions deviate quite substantially from the original Italian and come out of my own naïvity. 

Please understand that this sort of translation is not intended to be an "obsession". I'm quite willing to accept that some circumstances require people communicating using obfuscating language.



			
				elroy said:
			
		

> *I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Only when I feel deep inside - perhaps by observing certain situations - that I have a clear perception of what you thought, understood, and did at that moment, will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.*


After reading the previous posts it is now clearer what is trying to be said. This version is easier to read - however complex.



			
				leenico said:
			
		

> Only when I feel deep inside, perhaps by observing certain situations
> 
> 
> 
> This to me made no sense.
Click to expand...

I agree. Perhaps elroy can come up with a way of putting "perhaps by observing certain situations" into a different part of the sentence or into a new sentence without sacrificing the integrity of the original text?


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## stephenwallis

elroy said:
			
		

> "Perhaps by observing certain situations" was a parenthetical insertion.


Quite right! I have no objection to the use of parenthetical insertions. My objection would only be that it doesn't help make the sentence any more understandable and is perhaps unnecessary - but then it's in the original text so we can't just leave it out.


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## elroy

stephenwallis said:
			
		

> Humbly accepted... while I am aware that this forum might be here more for the pure translation, I believe that words are meant to be understood and preferably without confusion. This particular text might be easily understood in Italian but in my opionion the English version leaves room for misunderstanding and might require a lot of clarification.


 
I completely agree with you. 
This forum is indeed not aimed at providing "pure" translations.  Frankly, I don't think my English version was that incomprehensible, although I do concede it was a bit bulkier than your average sentence.



> I hope I haven't offended you in offering some suggestions of simplification. I know that my suggestions deviate quite substantially from the original Italian and come out of my own naïvity.


 
No offense at all!
This forum is a place for discussion, and I am entirely open to criticism and dialogue.
By the way, I believe the word is *naïvité*.



> Please understand that this sort of translation is not intended to be an "obsession". I'm quite willing to accept that some circumstances require people communicating using obfuscating language.


 
I understand. And I apologize if I implied that you were obsessive. My advice was intended more generally. Unfortunately, there are all too many people who are "obsessive" about it. 



> After reading the previous posts it is now clearer what is trying to be said. This version is easier to read - however complex.
> 
> 
> I agree. Perhaps elroy can come up with a way of putting "perhaps by observing certain situations" into a different part of the sentence or into a new sentence without sacrificing the integrity of the original text?


 
Ok, ok. Let's see what we can do...

*I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Perhaps observing certain situations will lead me to feel deep inside that I have a clear perception of what you thought, understood [edited due to typo] , and did at that moment. Only then will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.*

I can't say I like it, though. Much of the force of the original is somehow lost in this artificial rearrangement.


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## stephenwallis

elroy said:
			
		

> By the way, I believe the word is *naïvité*.


Too true - I thought something looked wrong but since my spelling was confirmed by dictionary.com I overlooked the correct French spelling.



			
				elroy said:
			
		

> I can't say I like it, though. Much of the force of the original is somehow lost in this artificial rearrangement.


Yes, somehow it doesn't have quite the same effect.


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## leenico

> *I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Perhaps by observing certain situations, when I feel deep inside I will have a clear perception of what you thought, understood, and did at that moment, will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.*


 I tweaked it some more. I don't like "*when I feel deep inside etc*." I think it should be


> *I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Perhaps by observing certain situations, what I feel deep inside will have a clearer perception of what you thought, understood, and did at that moment. Then I will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.*


 I know it is not a literal translation. So how much Italian is?


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## elroy

leenico said:
			
		

> I tweaked it some more. I don't like "*when I feel deep inside etc*." I think it should be
> I know it is not a literal translation. So how much Italian is?


 
My revised version does not have "when I feel deep inside."

As for your suggestions:

*I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Perhaps by observing certain situations, when I feel deep inside I will have a clear perception of what you thought, understood, and did at that moment, will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.* 

You cannot separate the red part from the purple part. "Feel" is not an instransitive verb, so you can't just say "When I feel deep inside" and then move on. That's why it should be "when I feel that I have..."

*I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Perhaps by observing certain situations, what I feel deep inside will have a clearer perception of what you thought, understood, and did at that moment Then I will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.* 

No! "What I feel" cannot "have a perception." It is I who will have a perception...

I still don't understand. There is nothing wrong with my translations. Yet not only do you insist on "tweaking" them, but what you suggest either distorts the original or sounds awkward in English. I fear that your "tweaking" is counter-productive.


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## leenico

> I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Perhaps observing certain situations will lead me to feel deep inside that I have a clear perception of what you thought, understand, and did at that moment. Only then will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.


Primarily I think what you have written is clumsy, verbose, and unclear. Also, your tense usage is incongruous. However if you insist on this translation, I would make the following suggestions. I trust you will not take offense at an opposing viewpoint.



> I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Perhaps observing certain situations will lead *allow* me to feel deeply inside that I have a clear*er* perception of what you thought, understand understood, and did at that moment. Only then will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.


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## elroy

leenico said:
			
		

> Primarily I think what you have written is clumsy, verbose, and unclear. Also, your tense usage is incongruous. However if you insist on this translation, I would make the following suggestions. I trust you will not take offense at an opposing viewpoint.


 
As I said before, I am not at all offended. 

I only wish you would support your accusations with concrete examples and/or provide me with a smooth, concise, and clear alternative that does not distort the original meaning or violate the laws of English grammar.

On to your "suggestions": 

I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Perhaps observing certain situations will lead *allow* either one seems to work ok. I chose "lead" because it more forcefully expresses the causality implied in the original, but "allow" would be acceptable. Either way, I don't think "lead" is clumsy, verbose, or unclear - nor is it reflective of "incongruous tense usage." me to feel deeply inside the word "inside" is in red, but it seems that the change you made was adding an "-ly" to "deep." Assuming that's the case, I simply fail to see how a native speaker of English could find that "feel deeply inside" sounds better than "feel deep inside," at least not without changing the meaning. The original Italian does not describe the process of feeling but says "dentro di me," i.e. "*deep* inside me." that I have a clear*er* there's nothing wrong with "clear," and the original Italian is not comparative! perception of what you thought, understand this was a typo, thank you understood, and did at that moment. Only then will I be able to tell you that I truly know you. 

Honestly, I don't know what you're trying to do. You have failed to back up your unfounded accusations, your suggestions have been consistently invalid and/or awkward, and you seem to be perpetuating this exercise just for the sake of doing so.

I am all for intellectual and linguistic dialogue and discussion, but hollow, presumptuous comments with no basis in fact serve neither of those purposes.


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## moodywop

Hey guys

I don't know how I could have missed this thread - it's right up my street(is this BE? - I never know for sure).

As you know I am fascinated by the translating process - even though I'm no good at it I like reading translations by masters of the art, like the Colquhoun translation of "I Promessi Sposi"("The Betrothed") I posted a while back.

Only this morning I was going to post a passage from Gore Vidal's "The City and the Pillar" but sadly he writes very short sentences therefore the four sentences rule (for copyright reasons) would have meant posting a tiny passage. I'll probably opt for Boccaccio's "Decameron" or Joyce's "The Dead".

I found the discussion between native speakers fascinating. This is the kind of thread that all real language lovers should cherish. We all like to help beginners with simple matter-of-fact translations. But we also need stimulating, thought-provoking language analysis, delving into nuances and ambiguity(the toughest challenge for any translator - preserving ambiguity and polysemy in translation).

That is exactly what you provided in this thread. So, although *I would never dare to suggest what tone you should adopt(it would be presumptuous and patronizing on my part, something I abhor)* I'm just going to say that although you may have expressed strong feelings in my view that just goes to show you all share with me and others here a deep love of this amazing resource human beings are blessed with - language. I'd much rather you fought over language than over race, religion or politics .

So, a heartfelt thank you to you all for raising the level of discussion to new heights on this forum.

Btw I'm always correcting your Italian so please feel free to cast your unforgiving clinical eye over my English . It would be highly appreciated.

Carlo


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## leenico

This is my final comment on this topic. To continue would be an excercise in futility. Apparently you are remiss in some of the elementary points of grammar. I advise you review both adverbial application and tense conformity in English. I suggest the "Elements of Style" by Strunk & White. This will substantiate my position and help you understand your fallacious argument. At this point I agree to disagree with you.


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## elroy

leenico said:
			
		

> This is my final comment on this topic. To continue would be an excercise in futility. Apparently you are remiss in some of the elementary points of grammar. I advise you review both adverbial application and tense conformity in English. I suggest the "Elements of Style" by Strunk & White. This will substantiate my position and help you understand your fallacious argument. At this point I agree to disagree with you.


 
My updated translation is at your disposal. Please feel free to point out my grammatical blunders. 

*I feel as though I didn't know you well enough. Perhaps observing certain situations will lead me to feel deep inside that I have a clear perception of what you thought, understood, and did at that moment. Only then will I be able to tell you that I truly know you.*

*EDIT: I have edited this post to acknowledge a typo that I made when I composed this version. I will also edit my previous comments in response to a related suggestion, which had been based on a misunderstanding.*


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