# My Genative



## GreedyGreen

Hi there, this is probably the first of many questions about genative pronouns. The grammar book I'm using (Greek: An Essential Grammer of the Modern Language)gives an example of the use of a genative pronoun in the phrase:

Του έπεσε το παντίλι

which it translated as "He dropped his handkerchief" but described as being liturally, "from him fell the handkerchief".

The genative pronoun "Του" is placed at the start of the sentance, but is it equally valid to say:

Έπεσε το παντίλι του

which seems to me to be a closer match to the original translation?


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## ireney

Hello there.

 " Του έπεσε το μαντήλι" cannot be accurately translated if you ask me but then I just woke up . It is indeed, "the handkerchief fell from him" but with "He dropped his handkerchief" overtones if that makes any sense. In other words, the meaning is that he dropped it but (and I stress again I just woke up) carrying the meaning of accident in this case.

"Του" here is not acting as a possessive genitive whereas that's what happens in the second sentence.

"'Επεσε το μαντήλι του" means "His handkerchief fell".


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## Kevman

Hi GreedyGreen,

I might risk repeating some of what Irene just said, but I've been up for a while.

The genitive can signify several other things besides possession.  In your particular example it signifies that the event is 'happening to him.'

Here's perhaps a better example of this use of the genitive:
Του άνοιξα την πόρτα.
In this case, it isn't _his_ door.  I opened the door _for_ him.  I opened the door and let him in.  The genitive pronoun goes in front of the verb and indicates that the action of the verb affects "him."

It's the same idea with your example:
Του έπεσε το μαντίλι.
The dropping of the handkerchief is something that happens to "him," and it's just understood that the handkerchief actually belongs to him because, well, who else's would it be?

If του appears at the end:
Έπεσε το μαντίλι του.
it is associated with the handkerchief instead of the verb.  This του is a true possessive, explicitly defining the handkerchief as _his_, but the sense of this sentence is slightly different from the other one.  The focus is more about what happened to "his handkerchief" than what happened to "him." (This may actually be kind of a bad example for your rearranged sentence, since πέφτω is intransitive [think: "_fall_" rather than "_drop_"], so note that _το μαντίλι_ is actually the subject of both Greek sentences.  You wouldn't really interpret your reworking of this particular example as "_He dropped..._")


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## anthodocheio

In case someone is interested...

In Spanish can be easily explained:
"Μου έπεσε το μαντήλι (μου)" -> "Se me cayó el pañuelo"
"Έπεσε το μαντήλι μου" -> "Mi pañuelo (se) cayó".


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## GreedyGreen

Kevman said:


> Hi GreedyGreen,
> Here's perhaps a better example of this use of the genitive:
> Του άνοιξα την πόρτα.
> In this case, it isn't _his_ door. I opened the door _for_ him. I opened the door and let him in. The genitive pronoun goes in front of the verb and indicates that the action of the verb affects "him."


 
OK - I think I get the idea here. So to follow the train of thought, if I were to say "άνοιξα την πόρτα του", that would be "I opened _his_ door".
i.e. Genative pronoun before the verb indicated you should connect the pronoun to the verb by an assumed preposition (_*for, to*_ or *from* etc), whereas if it's sitting after the noun, the pronoun indicates possession of that noun? Is this a case where word order becomes vital to clarify meaning?

Thanks for the answers again and thank you Irene for thinking about my query so soon after waking!

Another genative question is coming, but I'll do a new post as it's sort of a separate query.


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## modus.irrealis

GreedyGreen said:


> i.e. Genative pronoun before the verb indicated you should connect the pronoun to the verb by an assumed preposition (_*for, to*_ or *from* etc), whereas if it's sitting after the noun, the pronoun indicates possession of that noun? Is this a case where word order becomes vital to clarify meaning?


Sometimes. The problem is that it's possible for the pronoun to be both after the noun and before the verb. For example you could have things like το μαντήλι του έπεσε (= έπεσε το μαντήλι του) vs. το μαντήλι τού έπεσε (= του έπεσε το μαντήλι) -- in speech, tone of voice distinguishes the two and in writing you avoid the ambiguity by putting an accent over the του to indicate it goes with the following verb (although there is no accent if there's no possible ambiguity).

Edit: on second thought, I often get tripped up by the accent rules for one-syllable words so what I wrote about the accent in ambiguous contexts may not be correct and needs to be verified. But my point that it's not just a matter of word order still stands.


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## Kevman

GreedyGreen said:


> Genative pronoun before the verb indicated you should connect the pronoun to the verb by an assumed preposition (_*for, to*_ or *from* etc)


That's one way to think about it, but be aware that it isn't always so simple to find a suitable English preposition to tie it down to (this is what Irene meant by "cannot be accurately translated").  For instance, this is the same use of the genitive that you'll find in phrases like:
μου λείπεις
_I miss you_ (literally: you are absent from me?? to me?? for me??)
Τι μου κάνεις
_How are you_ (to me??... The sense is that I really care how you're doing.)



GreedyGreen said:


> Is this a case where word order becomes vital to clarify meaning?


In a way.  There are a few other places in the sentence that these pronouns can fall in certain situations, but for the most part the one goes next to the verb and the other is associated with the noun.
modus.irrealis' info about the disambiguating accent is spot-on, by the way.


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## pulcinella

modus.irrealis said:


> Sometimes. The problem is that it's possible for the pronoun to be both after the noun and before the verb. For example you could have things like το μαντήλι του έπεσε (= έπεσε το μαντήλι του) vs. το μαντήλι τού έπεσε (= του έπεσε το μαντήλι) -- in speech, tone of voice distinguishes the two and in writing you avoid the ambiguity by putting an accent over the του to indicate it goes with the following verb (although there is no accent if there's no possible ambiguity).
> 
> Edit: on second thought, I often get tripped up by the accent rules for one-syllable words so what I wrote about the accent in ambiguous contexts may not be correct and needs to be verified. But my point that it's not just a matter of word order still stands.


What you said, modus.irrealis, about the use of accent on monosyllabic words is absolutely correct - it is placed on them only in order not to allow for ambiguity. A typical example is που/πού, πως/πώς
Η ταινία που είδαμε
Δεν ξέρω πού είναι.
Μου είπε πως θα έρθει.
Πώς σε λένε;


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