# benedicta tu in mulieribus



## mallevsdei

In Luke 1:28 (Vulgate) the angel Gabriel says to Mary "benedicta tu in mulieribus"

In Luke 1:42  Mary's cousin Elizabeth says to her "benedicta tu inter mulieres"

Both phrases are translated in King James and Douay-Reims as "blessed art thou among women"

Both are grammatically correct obviously, but is there any difference in meaning?


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## alexacohen

My Bible Latin is not very good, but if there is a difference in meaning, I can't see it.


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## Probo

Salve: "benedicta tu in mulieribus" and "benedicta tu inter mulieres" are exactly the same. Vt ualeas


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## mallevsdei

gratias tibi ago.


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## judkinsc

"inter" has a slightly more intensive or inclusive sense, since it's a more specific preposition, but there's no real difference between the two forms, particularly not in translation.

"inter" --within, among

"in"--as part of a group, among


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## shannenms

The interesting thing about the Luke 1.28 is that in some Greek manuscripts like *Alexandrian* and *Hort and Westcott *this final sentence is excluded, and following this, some English translatins such as American Standard Version, Bible in Basic English, Weymouth New Testament have not translated that.
In both Greek versions of these two verses *en *is used indifferently.


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## la italianilla

> With the *ablative*, *in*, on, *among*.
> 
> 
> In very various connections: as, - in castrís, in the camp (cf. ad castra, to, at, or near the camp)
> 
> 
> 14. *Inter*, between, *among*, with the *accusative*.
> 
> 
> inter hostium téla, amid the weapons of the enemy;



I think it's a little different.
 "In" is a preposition used to indicate inclusion within space, a place, or limits.
"Among" could be used to define as a determinate class o number of people, is a preposition that means not only "in" or "into" but "through the midst of" or "in association or connection with".
I've got to watch my Latin grammar, so I can tell you if there's a difference in the use depending on the period. It could depend on the autor too.


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## Spectre scolaire

I will not pretend to engage in any subtle exegesis of the _Vulgata_, but I have never noticed this difference before, and I am curious. As _shannenms_ has already alluded to, there is no difference if we go _ad fontes_ (which we probably should do). In both verses the preposition ἐν is being used: εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξί(ν). 

So why this difference in Latin?

If _judkinsc_ is right – and I have great respect for his level of Latin  --




			
				judkinsc said:
			
		

> "inter" has a slightly more intensive or inclusive sense, since it's a more specific preposition


 –- perhaps one should consider the fact that in Luc.1:42 the passage is pronounced by a woman – contrary to Luc.1:28. 

Hence: “blessed art thou among *us *[women]”.

Just a suggestion.  
 It kind of makes the Latin version more subtle than the original. ​


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## shannenms

Spectre scolaire said:


> perhaps one should consider the fact that in Luc.1:42 the passage is pronounced by a woman – contrary to Luc.1:28.
> 
> ​




I don't think so. I believe that this kind of usage is not affected by the whole sentence or other elements of it. In Persian we have such two words, Dar ( equivalent to Greek en, and Latin in), Andar ( equivalent to Latin inter--which is etymologically related to _inter_), we use them ( of course we don't apply Andar in modern Persian) indifferently and it is related with the taste of the writer. I think the same thing works here.


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## judkinsc

Just as the choice of words is the preference of the writer, so is the context of that writer's intention included in the prepositional usage. There's no solid way to prove Spectre's suggestion, as far as I know, but it's a very interesting idea.

A study of something like this would be so complex and subtle, and across so many texts (or at least the body of work by this author, if known), that it could be dismissed on the grounds of reading too much into the context unless the study had very solid results (_i_._e_. if the word choice were used by this speaker every time when she referred to Mary among a group of women, but never to a group of men or people in general). Then one could argue that the specific author of this version of Luke did use the preposition "inter" in this context. And even if you did find some solid evidence, someone could call the usage into question with one example to which the model did not apply; someone, inevitably, would also try to extrapolate to other authors, and when this failed, as it inevitably would, they would accuse the original study of error as well, despite the illogic of applying the results of one study to something to which they were never intended to apply. So goes scholarship.

But, as with many things, and particularly with divergent opinion in translations, it remains the preference of the individual reader to read in a certain way. The only way to tell for sure would be to ask the author, and that author might not even realize what s/he was doing. I certainly know enough modern speakers of English who don't think about what words they choose--deliberation seems to be the prerogative of poets and dedicated prose stylists.


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## wonderment

Just to further affirm what has already been said above by Probo and shannenms:

In the koine New Testament, the text reads εν γυναιξιν (=among women) at both Luke 1:28 and 1:42. Translating from the Greek into Latin one has one of two options, and both means the exact same thing and thus can be used interchangeably:

in + ablative (“indicating a multitude or number, of, in, or among which a person or thing is”) --> in mulieribus = among women

inter + accusative --> inter mulieres = among women

Interpretation beyond this, I really don’t know. 

Ut valeatis


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## la italianilla

From my Diccionary of Latin: _IL_ by _Castiglioni - Marotti_ (1998)



> *inter + accusative*: between, *among* of, in the middle of.
> 
> Examples used by:
> 
> Cornelius Nepos, I AC -> *Iter eos* viviendum -> living among them (not only women, I suppose...because it's "eos": so it could be only men or men and women)
> 
> Marcus Tullius Cicero, I AC -> venire inter _falcarios_ -> among the ways of the _falcarios_ (I think it could be translate with _tilt hammers_, people who formed scythes.)





> IN + Ablative –> in, on, at, *among*, during.
> 
> Examples used by:
> 
> C. Iulius Caesar, I AC-> in his fuit Ariovistus (among them there was Ariovisto)
> 
> Marcus Tullius Cicero, I AC -> in his omnibus natu minimus -> the younger among all of them.



In the two case I don't see any difference depending on the "sex" of the nouns, I just see two different ways to explicite the same concept of the partitive. (Just my opinion, of course )

(You can also note the same autor, Marcus Tullius Cicero, used the either form "INTER + accusative" or "IN + Ablative).


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