# die gelernte Kellnerin (EN)



## Deleted721968

German speakers love to emphasize the fact the people are in a job because they have studied hard and got a piece of paper that proves it.

Consider the following fragment from the Exakt (ARD):

"_Die *gelernte* Kellnerin, [...], ist froh, mehr Platz für ihre Kinder zu haben_".

While I totally understand the meaning, I just wonder how one would translate that in English, for example in an official translation. 

I have never seen somebody pointing at a waiter/waitress as being "skilled" or "trained" or "qualified". It's usually considered an entry-level job that one gets without any qualification and nobody ever boasts about (at least here in UK).

Would it be ok to just leave it off?

I've thought of "_The professional waitress_...", but being a waitress is not really a profession, is it?


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## Kajjo

Kellner/Kellnerin is actually  one of the worst paid jobs in Germany, often only minimum wage, and for most of them your descriptions fits: No education, just a simple job without any particular qualification. In this context, "gelernte Kellnerin" sound indeed weird and over the top.

There are jobs with real qualification (albeit not of very much) like Restaurantfachmann/-frau or Hotelfachmann/-frau. They actually have a 3-year apprenticeship. Of course, even in Germany many people laugh about such pseudo-qualifications and many professions are just artificially made into more than common sense would tell you. But yes, that's the German way and many other consider or at least politically-correctly claim it to be appropriate. 

So I guess, the "gelernte Kellnerin" actually has a degree after a certain period of apprenticeship.


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## JClaudeK

castagnaccio said:


> "qualified"


looks good to me,

to distiguish her from this


Kajjo said:


> No education, just a simple job without any particular qualification.


cliché.

If they say "gelernte Kellnerin", she must have been trained (and might even be "educated" ).


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## manfy

The apprenticeship for the profession of Kellner/Kellnerin takes a few years and they do take tests and get a certificate in the end if they pass.
This is very different from a part time cocktail waitress!

Ergo, gelernte Kellnerin = accredited hospitality professional  (or something along those lines)


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## elroy

“qualified” is not the right word.  It’s subjective and indicates that the speaker believes this person has the right qualifications (is qualified) for the job, regardless of training, certificates, etc.

“trained” means that she has received training but doesn’t say anything about whether she has a certificate or anything like that. 

“accredited” only works if she’s received accreditation from a formal accrediting body — probably not the case here.

The best fit might be* “credentialed”*: this means that she has some type of credential (certificate or otherwise) that sets her apart from your typical waitress, and it’s unspecific as to what exactly the credential is.

That said, “credentialed waitress” is an odd collocation in English (then again, it might be appropriate in that it emphasizes the foreignness of the phenomenon).  Can we have more context?  Why is the author specifically identifying her as “gelernt”?  Depending on the context there may be a smoother way to work in this piece of information.


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## manfy

elroy said:


> Why is the author specifically identifying her as “gelernt”?


As JCK said, they probably used that form to distinguish her from any temp-waitress or helping hand. (the job title waiter/waitress does now have a low standing in the society)

Kellner/Kellnerin used to be a respected profession and they did a lot more than just waiting on people.
Out of curiosity I checked the net and it seems that "Lehrberuf Kellner/in" has changed to "Restaurantfachmann/fachfrau" in Austria, and it takes full 4 years before you can get your certificate.

I'm sure they changed the title in Germany too, but if that waitress finished her apprenticeship before that change, she might not automatically be allowed to carry the new title...! It's all very strict when it comes to titles in German-speaking areas.


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## elroy

manfy said:


> they probably used that form to distinguish her from any temp-waitress or helping hand


 What I meant was, why did they want to do that?  The meager context we’ve been given doesn’t tell us why it was relevant.


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## Kajjo

elroy said:


> What I meant was, why did they want to do that? The meager context we’ve been given doesn’t tell us why it was relevant.


You are right, context is important. My guess is, that they just wanted to give her proper occupation, avoiding to downgrade her to a temporary helper.


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## Hutschi

Is "certified" possible and idiomatic?


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## elroy

It’s like “accredited”: it means that you’ve been formally certified by a certifying entity.


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## manfy

elroy said:


> It’s like “accredited”: it means that you’ve been formally certified by a certifying entity.


But that's actually how it works in Austria - and I suppose in Germany too.
You finish any official apprenticeship with a formal certificate, and you can only do that in specific schools (Berufsschule). After successful completion you are "Geselle" and you can call yourself Schneider, Schuster, Schreiner, Kellner, or whatever type of occupation you have been training for. It is not something you can get from just any dubious employer or internet site.
This is very strict and well-controlled since the middle ages in Germany; all started with "Zunftwesen" - an early form of certified craftsmanship and quality control of people performing that work.


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## elroy

In English,

“having a certificate” ≠ “being certified”

_Having a certificate_ doesn’t mean much; _being certified_ means that you have demonstrated your competence in a specific area and have received formal *certification* (not a certificate!) by a _certifying entity_ — an entity authorized to confer certification.


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## Kajjo

Das Ausbildungswesen in Deutschland und den USA ist so krass verschieden, dass es schwierig ist, hier eine Entsprechung zu finden.

Wie nennt man denn den Abschluss eine Maurer-Gesellen? Drei Jahre Ausbildung ("apprenticship", I guess), dann Gesellenprüfung und er bekommt einen Gesellenbrief und darf sich Maurer nennen. Gleiches gilt (vereinfacht gesehen) quasi für jedes Handwerk und daran angelehnt auch für sehr viele Ausbildungsberufe.

Darüber hinaus gibt es im Handwerk noch den Meister -- nur er darf neue Gesellen ausbilden und (in den meisten Gewerken) als selbständiger Verantwortlicher tätig sein.


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## berndf

I would simply say "trained waitress". "Gelernt" didn't mean much more than that she has received proper training in her job.


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## manfy

Hmm, I'm not completely happy with 'trained waitress' (or 'professional waitress' as castagnaccio suggested in the first post).
Both adjectives allow multiple interpretations and particularly in connection with 'waitress', they are prone to be misconstrued by most readers.



castagnaccio said:


> "_Die *gelernte* Kellnerin, [...], ist froh, mehr Platz für ihre Kinder zu haben_".



There's one form that would work well for me:
Linda X, *a waitress by profession*, had ... and is now happy to have more space for her kids.

It does convey the same idea as 'gelernte Kellnerin' and has the same feel as the German version.
I googled the phrase and there seem to be a lot of good examples of this form - most seemed to be AE, so I'm not sure how well it works in BE.
But even if it does sound odd in normal BE, I'd say that if the context shows that this person is from Germany, readers would logically come to the conclusion that the German system is different. With 'a waitress by profession' no reader would think of her as just any unqualified part-time "Serviertussi", don't you think?


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## berndf

manfy said:


> There's one form that would work well for me:
> Linda X, *a waitress by profession*, had ... and is now happy to have more space for her kids.


That is equally open to misunderstanding. I would understand the English sentence to mean that she is most likely working as a waitress while the German sentence hint that she is probably not.

I still prefer my suggestion. The vagueness of "trained" is in my mind appropriate.


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## Perseas

> "_Die *gelernte* Kellnerin, [...], ist froh, mehr Platz für ihre Kinder zu haben_".


Is there a chance that "gelernte" refers not her occupation as a waitress but to her education level? For example, she is a young history graduate but temporarily works as a waitress. Of course, context would help, but can we rule this case out?


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## manfy

Perseas said:


> Is there a chance that "gelernte" refers not her occupation as a waitress but to her education level? For example, she is a young history graduate but temporarily works as a waitress. Of course, context would help, but can we rule this case out?


I'm a little confused. First you ask whether it might refer to her education level but not her actual job and then you give an example that expresses the exact opposite. 

In my experience the phrase "gelernte <Handwerksbezeichnung>" is usually used if that person completed the apprenticeship and received the certificate but then goes on to do something very different. That brings out a surprising contrast that sells well in journalism. For instance "Die gelernte Friseuse ist nun eine der bekanntesten Sängerinnen Europas und verdient unter dem Namen Lady GuGu gut 50 Millionen Euro pro Jahr".

In your example of the history graduate jobbing as a waitress, you wouldn't call her "gelernte Kellnerin" because she already has attained a higher education level. In this case you'd only say "(arbeitet als) Kellnerin". 
Of course, with special context all sorts of things are possible, but without it such phrasing would be unlikely and strange.

There's another phrase: "*an*gelernte Kellnerin" and that's what we'd usually call somebody who works as a waitress, who has received some sort of training but who does not have that formal certificate by a vocational school. I'm not sure whether that is an Austrian or Bavarian language thing, but that is something you might hear in the South.


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## berndf

manfy said:


> In my experience the phrase "gelernte <Handwerksbezeichnung>" is usually used if that person completed the apprenticeship and received the certificate but then goes on to do something very different.


Exactly.


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## Perseas

manfy said:


> I'm a little confused. First you ask whether it might refer to her education level but not her actual job and then you give an example that expresses the exact opposite.


I thought the example expressed the same: actual job-"Kellnerin", educational level-"history degree".
Anyway, this part of your answer covers my inquiry:



manfy said:


> In your example of the history graduate jobbing as a waitress, you wouldn't call her "gelernte Kellnerin" because she already has attained a higher education level. In this case you'd only say "(arbeitet als) Kellnerin".
> Of course, with special context all sorts of things are possible, but without it such phrasing would be unlikely and strange.


Thanks a lot!


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## elroy

Given this new information, I think the best translation is “waitress *by training*.”


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## Kajjo

manfy said:


> In my experience the phrase "gelernte <Handwerksbezeichnung>" is usually used if that person completed the apprenticeship and received the certificate but then goes on to do something very different. That brings out a surprising contrast that sells well in journalism. For instance "Die gelernte Friseuse ist nun eine der bekanntesten Sängerinnen Europas und verdient unter dem Namen Lady GuGu gut 50 Millionen Euro pro Jahr".


Exactly! This is how this phrase is mostly used nowadays.


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## Deleted721968

elroy said:


> Can we have more context? Why is the author specifically identifying her as “gelernt”? Depending on the context there may be a smoother way to work in this piece of information.


I couldn't possibly extract the context out of this quote. I don't actually understand why the fact that the lady is trained, qualified or certified adds to the fact that she has to live in a house that's too small for her and her kids.

I'm tempted to go along with *Kajjo'*s interpretation, that is, it's just a politically correct way was of introducing a character to the topic. If I have to translate this piece for a non-German audience, I guess they would struggle to get the point of having so much information.


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## Kajjo

castagnaccio said:


> If I have to translate this piece for a non-German audience, I guess they would struggle to get the point of having so much information.


I guess so, yes.

She's a waitress, but "eine gelernte Kellnerin" does not say anything about whether she actually currently works as waitress (probably not). It's just a typical German journalist way of introducing new characters.

Selbst bei Unfallberichten in der Zeitung erfährt man unnötigerweise, dass "ein zweifacher Familienvater, 45, ..." oder "der Diplom-Kaufmann" einen der Wagen gefahren hat. Interessiert auch niemanden, ist aber üblich. Klänge halt wohl genauso nichtssagend, wie es tatsächlich ist, wenn man es einfach nur zwei Fahrer gewesen wären.


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## JClaudeK

castagnaccio said:


> I don't actually understand why the fact that the lady is trained, qualified or certified adds to the fact that she has to live in a house that's too small for her and her kids.


Geht es in diesem Artikel um dieselbe "gelernte Kellnerin"? - nämlich um eine Frau, die 500.0000 Euro gewonnen hat?



> "_Die *gelernte* Kellnerin, [...], ist froh, mehr Platz für ihre Kinder zu haben_".


Falls ja, (aber auch sonst) finde ich's schon von Belang, dass eine "gelernte Kellnerin" (die normalerweise einen korrekten Lohn haben sollte) nicht genug verdient, um sich  mit ihren Kindern eine ordentliche  Wohnung leisten zu können.
Bei einer Hilfskraft könnte man das leichter verstehen.


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