# FR: c'est une jolie ville, elle est petite



## Spans85

Would it be appropriate to use 'elle' when talking about a city rather than repeating the city's name?

e.g.J’ai l’intention de rester à Cambridge parce que j*’adore cette ville ! *A mon avis, c’est une jolie ville. Je l’aime bien parce que c’est petite et il n y a pas trop de monde. 
 
ou
 
J’ai l’intention de rester à Cambridge parce que *J’adore cette ville ! *A mon avis, elle est une jolie ville. Je l’aime bien parce qu'elle est petite et il n y a pas trop de monde.


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## frenchlady

Spans85 said:


> Would it be appropriate to use 'elle' when talking about a city rather than repeating the city's name?
> 
> e.g.
> 
> ou
> 
> J’ai l’intention de rester à Cambridge parce que *J’adore cette ville ! *A mon avis, c'est une jolie ville. Je l’aime bien parce qu'elle est petite et il n y a pas trop de monde.


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## arundhati

Unfortunately, you have to mix your sentences !
"*À* mon avis, c'est une jolie ville. Je l’aime bien parce qu'elle est petite et *qu*'il n y a pas trop de monde".


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## Spans85

O h i see, but why do I need the 'qu' before 'qu'il n'y a pas trop de monde'? Is it really necessary?


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## je-ne-regrette-rien

Yes; in English we often leave out the conjunction equivalent of 'que' but it French, we always have to put it in.


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## Spans85

so how does one know when to use 'c'est' or 'elle'?! Why do you use 'c'est' when describing it as a 'jolie ville' but then 'elle' when saying it is 'petite'?


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## Road to Jacksonville

Spans85 said:


> so how does one know when to use 'c'est' or 'elle'?! Why do you use 'c'est' when describing it as a 'jolie ville' but then 'elle' when saying it is 'petite'?


Because "ce" or "c' " is not definite, so we can't use the feminine, but you could say "c'est petit".


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## Spans85

so because 'jolie' is a matter of opinion and not concrete fact, unlike 'petite' you mean?


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## Road to Jacksonville

No, in German, you have three gender : masculine, feminine and "neutral" (?). 
In French too (like in "il, elle, on") but the "neutral" is the same as the masculine. "Ce" is not masculine or feminine, it's "neutral", so you have to act just like if it's masculine.

You can say 
"J’ai l’intention de rester à Cambridge parce que *j’adore cette ville ! *A mon avis, c'est une jolie ville. Je l’aime bien parce qu'elle est petite et qu'il n y a pas trop de monde"
or
"J’ai l’intention de rester à Cambridge parce que *j’adore cette ville ! *A mon avis, c'est une jolie ville. Je l’aime bien parce que c'est petit et qu'il n y a pas trop de monde"
or
"J’ai l’intention de rester à Cambridge parce que *j’adore cette ville ! *A mon avis, elle est une jolie ville. Je l’aime bien parce qu'elle est petite et qu'il n y a pas trop de monde"

First difference in french : the last sentence is "heavy" because you have twice the mark of the gender in "elle est une jolie ville". It's the same in english between: "that's a nice town" or "it's a nice town", but as you haven't any mark of gender for "nice", il doesn't souns as "heavy" as in french.

The second difference is exactly the same in english : "ce" ou "c' " point out the thing (this, that...), "elle" doesn't, just like "it".


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## Spans85

so even if you are talking about a feminie noun 'ville' you would still say 'c'est petit' not c'est petite'?


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## Road to Jacksonville

Spans85 said:


> so even if you are talking about a feminie noun 'ville' you would still say 'c'est petit' not c'est petite'?


Exactly!


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## Spans85

But thats not what my text book says! There is a postcard in it which says: 'Le conquet est super! C'est une jolie ville, tres animée'


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## Road to Jacksonville

Spans85 said:


> But thats not what my text book says! There is a postcard in it which says: 'Le conquet est super! C'est une jolie ville, tres animée'


'Le conquet est super! C'est joli, très animé' 
Because here c' leads *directly* the gender of "joli"
'Le Conquet est super! C'est une jolie ville, très animée'
Here, after "jolie", you have a *name *(ville), and the gender of "jolie" doesn't concern c' but the feminine name ville, just like "une".
- C'est un joli village
- C'est une jolie ville
- C'est joli


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## Wordsmyth

Spans raised a question that doesn't really seem to have been answered:





Spans85 said:


> so how does one know when to use 'c'est' or 'elle'?! Why do you use 'c'est' when describing it as a 'jolie ville' but then 'elle' when saying it is 'petite'?


 
RtJ discusses all three combinations: c'est ... elle est; — c'est...c'est; — elle est ... elle est.

The majority (frenchlady, arundhati, and I add myself) propose c'est ... elle est. *But why?*

RtJ's comparison with English "this/that" and "it" is fine in theory, but doesn't serve as a general practical rule, because many instances of "c'est" in French are usually expressed as "it is" (or "it's") in English.

I seem to remember learning something about using "c'est" when the subject has already been determined and you're just referring back to it. That might explain "c'est une jolie ville", but not the switch back to "elle" in the next sentence.

In fact, by instinct, in that final sentence, I would put "Je l’aime bien parce qu'*elle* est petite", but "Je l’aime bien parce que *c'*est une petite ville". Do others agree? If so, does the answer lie in the construction (elle est + adjective; c'est + noun phrase)?

Sorry, Spans, I'm raising questions rather than answering yours, but maybe a grammatically minded native speaker can help.

Ws


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## lingogal

C'est + un/une + masc./fem. adjective + noun

Il/Elle est + adjective that agrees with the subject pronoun

C'est + masc. sing. adjective


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## Wordsmyth

lingogal said:


> C'est + un/une + masc./fem. adjective + noun
> 
> Il/Elle est + adjective that agrees with the subject pronoun
> 
> C'est + masc. sing. adjective


 
Absolutely, _lingogal_, but we still don't quite have the answer to _Spans85_'s question, i.e. how to choose between your second and third examples. 


Spans85 said:


> so how does one know when to use 'c'est' or 'elle'?! Why do you use 'c'est' when describing it as a 'jolie ville' but then 'elle' when saying it is 'petite'?


 
So I took a deep breath and looked for other threads (a bit daunting with an expression as common as "c'est") — and found *this link* posted by _tilt _: scroll down to the table that neatly summarises the different uses of "c'est' and "il est", and *you have your answer, Spans.* Also, _jann_ recently provided this link to *existing threads* on the subject.

Hope that helps.

Ws


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## Fred_C

Spans85 said:


> so how does one know when to use 'c'est' or 'elle'?! Why do you use 'c'est' when describing it as a 'jolie ville' but then 'elle' when saying it is 'petite'?


Very easy :
if you use the verb "être" to describe the subject,
Always use "c'" when a noun or a nominal group comes after the verb "être",
always use il or elle when an adjective comes after the verb être.

If you want to use the verb être for other purposes, (like indicating whereabouts), then...
Check the other threads.


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## Wordsmyth

Fred_C said:


> Very easy : [...]


 
Very easy, Fred, but it seems a little over-simplified compared with the 'rules'/examples that you can see if you follow the link ("this link") in my post #16.

Ws


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## Fred_C

Yes indeed, That is why I said "follow the other links" : I meant the links you had posted.


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## Wordsmyth

OK, entendu . Thinking about it, it's probably good to have a simple 'starter rule', then to go and check the exceptions and variations as needed. 

Ws


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## Gwynplaine

1. C'est une jolie ville
2. Elle est jolie
3. C'est joli.

The difference between sentences 1 and 2 is very clear : you have to use the pronoun "c'" (sentence 1) because the predicate is a nominal group, and the pronoun "Elle" in the second sentence because the predicate is an adjective.

It's more difficult about the third sentence. In that case, you use "c'" because this pronoun doesn't refer to a precise and clear referent, either given in the speech ("Nous arrivâmes dans *une ville* ; *elle* était jolie" : Une ville = Elle), or sufficiently obvious though implicit (ex. : in front of a woman : "*Elle* est jolie" : Elle = the woman ; in front of a child's drawing : "*Il *est joli" : Il = the drawing = *le* dessin)).

If you arrive in a city and say : "C'est joli !", this "c'" not only refers to "the city", but also to the whole landscape in which you stand. You mean at time "La ville est jolie", "Le cadre est jolie", "Le paysage est joli", "Tout est joli ici"... So you must use a neutral pronoun.

I hope my English is not too bad ;-) Correct me, please !


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