# FR: I must have been mistaken



## Kay Champs

I tried the past postings of Forums about variations of devoir but any of them was not comprehensive.  To put the temporal use of devoir in perspective, I wrote as many variations  as I could think of and put my English translations on their respective sides. Please correct or confirm my translations and add other variations, if any.
I. suppostion
Je dois m'être trompé = I must have been mistaken
Je devais me tromer =  I must have been mistaken
Je deverais me tromer = Probably, I'm wrong.
J'ai dû me tromper = I must have been mistaken
J'aurais dû me tromper =  Probably, I was mistaken. = I will have been mistaken. 
II. obligation
Je dois avoir aider ma mère = I had to help my mother
Je devais aider ma mère = I had to help my mother
Je deverais aider ma mère = Maybe I should help my mother/I'd better help my mother
J'ai dû aider ma mère = I should have helped my mother
J'aurais dû aider ma mère = I  probably should have helped my mother.


----------



## XPditif

Hey, "deverais" and cie don't exist, it's DEVRAIS.
And "je dois avoir *aidé* ma mère".

All the rest depend on the context, and is suceptible of mutiple translations (other than the ones you provided), and therefore, even if interesting, your exercice remains pointless.


----------



## Apqmw

*Supposition*
En français, il n'y a pas vraiment de différence de sens entre "Je dois m'être trompé" et "J'ai dû me tromper".
 Par contre, "Je devais me tromper" est très différent de "J'ai dû me tromper"
Je traduirais "J'ai dû me tromper" par "I should have make a mistake", mais je ne sais pas comment traduire "Je devais me tromper".
"Je devais me tromper" signifie que je n'avais pas d'autres solutions que de me tromper.

*Obligation
*"Je dois avoir aidé..." s'utilise peu en français sauf dans une construction du type : "Je dois avoir aidé ma mère avant ce soir."
"Je devrais aider ..."  -> D'accord avec toi
"Je devais aider..." et "J'ai dû aider..." ont presque le même sens, avec peut-être une idée de durée, de répétitivité dans "Je devais...". Je traduirais "Je devais aider..." par "I used to have to help" et "J'ai dû aider..." par "I had to help".


----------



## Kay Champs

Thank you Apqmw.
I understood all your explanations.
Very good explanations. I will keep them in my ordinateur for future reference.


----------



## wh1949

Apqmw said:


> *Supposition*
> En français, il n'y a pas vraiment de différence de sens entre "Je dois m'être trompé" et "J'ai dû me tromper".
> Par contre, "Je devais me tromper" est très différent de "J'ai dû me tromper"
> Je traduirais "J'ai dû me tromper" par "I should have make (*made?*) a mistake", mais je ne sais pas comment traduire "Je devais me tromper".
> "Je devais me tromper" signifie que je n'avais pas d'autres solutions que de me tromper.




I think "j'ai du me tromper" means "*I must have made a mistake*" ie "the only explanation for this is that I made a mistake". This has a completely different meaning from "I should have made a mistake". I also always thought that "je devais me tromper" meant something not very different from "j'ai du me tromper" (but clearly j'ai du me tromper).


----------



## mec_américain

As I learned them, picking my own verb:

Je dois partir: I have to leave, must leave, am supposed to leave
J'ai dû partir: I had to leave, must have left, was supposed to leave

Je devais partir: I had to leave, used to have to leave, was having to leave, would have to leave (imperfect "would," not conditional "would")
J'avais dû partir: I had had to leave

Je devrais partir: I would have to leave, should leave, ought to leave
J'aurais dû partir: I would have had to leave, should have left, ought to have left

Je devrai partir: I will/shall have to leave
J'aurai dû partir: I will/shall have had to leave

Je vais devoir partir: I'm going to have to leave


There are also progressive tenses implied.  For instance, "I have to leave" and "I am having to leave" are both present tense, "Je dois partir."  Some (many? most?) of them sound strange but some day you may find a need for them.  "I should be leaving now..."  Je devrais partir maintenant.

devoir must be the hardest verb in the French language to translate.  Did I get them all?


----------



## Apqmw

wh1949 said:


> I think "j'ai du me tromper" means "*I must have made a mistake*" ie "the only explanation for this is that I made a mistake". This has a completely different meaning from "I should have made a mistake".


Yes, that's true, but I thing the difference is smaller in French than in English.



wh1949 said:


> I also always thought that "je devais me tromper" meant something not very different from "j'ai du me tromper" (but clearly j'ai du me tromper).


"Je devais me tromper" means that I made a mistake, but I couldn't do anything to avoid it.
"J'ai dû me tromper" means I should/must have made a mistake, it depends on the context.


----------



## wh1949

Apqmw said:


> Yes, that's true, but I thing the difference is smaller in French than in English.
> 
> 
> "Je devais me tromper" means that I made a mistake, but I couldn't do anything to avoid it.
> "J'ai dû me tromper" means I should/must have made a mistake, it depends on the context.



Thank you, that's very interesting. From what you're saying, "je devais me tromper" could be translated in English simply as "I *had* to make a mistake", (ie "(In the circumstances) it was inevitable that I would make a mistake"), or perhaps "I was *bound *to make a mistake".

PS As for "j'ai du me tromper" (sorry no circonflexe), I'm actually finding it difficult to think of a situation where it would be normal & appropriate to say in English "I should have made a mistake". Could you or anyone suggest an example?


----------



## XPditif

Actually, devais in "je devais me tromper" has two meanings -- based on the polysemy of "devoir":
-- I had to make a mistake. 
-- I was (probably) mistaking.


----------



## mec_américain

Apqmw said:


> Yes, that's true, but I thing the difference is smaller in French than in English.
> 
> 
> "Je devais me tromper" means that I made a mistake, but I couldn't do anything to avoid it.
> "J'ai dû me tromper" means I should/must have made a mistake, it depends on the context.


 
I was taught "j'aurais dû" for "should have."



wh1949 said:


> Thank you, that's very interesting. From what you're saying, "je devais me tromper" could be translated in English simply as "I *had* to make a mistake", (ie "(In the circumstances) it was inevitable that I would make a mistake"), or perhaps "I was *bound *to make a mistake".
> 
> PS As for "j'ai du me tromper" (sorry no circonflexe), I'm actually finding it difficult to think of a situation where it would be normal & appropriate to say in English "I should have made a mistake". Could you or anyone suggest an example?


 
If you do the math and your bank balance still doesn't match, you might say, j'ai dû me tromper..."I had to make a mistake" or "I must have made a mistake" and they would mean the same thing. If you use a si clause + plus que parfait -> conditionnel passé sentence: Si j'avais une bonne calculatrice, je n'aurais pas dû me tromper. If I had had a good calculator, I wouldn't have had to make a mistake. (Or in British English, I "shouldn't" have made a mistake). 

Some of them are easier to find contexts for than others. As you probably know, tromper=to deceive, se tromper=to make a mistake (deceive oneself). You might say, "J'aurais dû tromper mon fils," I should have deceived my son, like maybe if you had a surprise party planned for him but revealed the secret and decided not to lie to cover it up. 

Some date or appt you really don't want to keep and you want to pretend you forgot, but you go and you later regret it (I should have "made a mistake" about the date)?


----------



## mec_américain

XPditif said:


> -- I was (probably) mistaking.


 
I think you mean "mistaken" or "making a mistake."

I thought this would be je me trompais or je me suis trompé


----------



## Kay Champs

Referring specifically to "je devais me tromper," selon XPditif, I note that it could mean "I was probably mistaken (supposition)" in addition to "je n'avais pas d'autres solutions que de me tromper (inevitability)" given by Apqmw. 
I found an example in my dico to support the use of devoir in that sense (supposition in imparfait (devait) form). That is, "Quand est-ce que vous avez entendu le cri?  --- Il devait etre 2 heures environs."    

Further comments would be welcome.


----------



## wh1949

mec_américain said:


> If you do the math and your bank balance still doesn't match, you might say, j'ai dû me tromper..."I had to make a mistake" or "I must have made a mistake" and they would mean the same thing. If you use a si clause + plus que parfait -> conditionnel passé sentence: Si j'avais une bonne calculatrice, je n'aurais pas dû me tromper. If I had had a good calculator, I wouldn't have had to make a mistake. (Or in British English, I "shouldn't" have made a mistake).
> 
> Some of them are easier to find contexts for than others. As you probably know, tromper=to deceive, se tromper=to make a mistake (deceive oneself). You might say, "J'aurais dû tromper mon fils," I should have deceived my son, like maybe if you had a surprise party planned for him but revealed the secret and decided not to lie to cover it up.
> 
> Some date or appt you really don't want to keep and you want to pretend you forgot, but you go and you later regret it (I should have "made a mistake" about the date)?




Thank you. In answer to your points in the order made...

Para 1. (a) For me, "I had to make a mistake" & "I must have made a mistake" have utterly different meanings. (b) (BTW your "si" clause is in the imperfect not pluperfect: did you mean to insert "eu" perhaps?) (c) As a British English speaker I would definitely say "I _wouldn't _have made a mistake" in the context given; "_shouldn't_" would sound wrong & odd.

Para 2. Yes, but what I was searching for was a situation in which it would be normal, appropriate & grammatically correct to say "I should have _made a mistake_". Good examples of "I should have _deceived_ (someone)" are obviously easy to find, as you demonstrate.

Para 3. Yes, I thought of that too. If the problem sentence is rewritten as "I should have made a "mistake"", ie with "mistake" in quotes, it is possible to come up with a plausible scenario such as the one you've given. (And this difference would be reflected in the intonation & accentuation of the spoken sentence, wouldn't it?) But if you take away the quotes?

The bottom line is that I'm still unclear as to what "je devais me tromper" means & in particular how its meaning differs from that of "j'ai du me tromper", (apologies again for the lack of circonflexe).


----------



## mec_américain

wh1949 said:


> Thank you. In answer to your points in the order made...
> 
> Para 1. (a) For me, "I had to make a mistake" & "I must have made a mistake" have utterly different meanings. (b) (BTW your "si" clause is in the imperfect not pluperfect: did you mean to insert "eu" perhaps?) (c) As a British English speaker I would definitely say "I _wouldn't _have made a mistake" in the context given; "_shouldn't_" would sound wrong & odd.
> 
> Para 2. Yes, but what I was searching for was a situation in which it would be normal, appropriate & grammatically correct to say "I should have _made a mistake_". Good examples of "I should have _deceived_ (someone)" are obviously easy to find, as you demonstrate.
> 
> Para 3. Yes, I thought of that too. If the problem sentence is rewritten as "I should have made a "mistake"", ie with "mistake" in quotes, it is possible to come up with a plausible scenario such as the one you've given. (And this difference would be reflected in the intonation & accentuation of the spoken sentence, wouldn't it?) But if you take away the quotes?
> 
> The bottom line is that I'm still unclear as to what "je devais me tromper" means & in particular how its meaning differs from that of "j'ai du me tromper", (apologies again for the lack of circonflexe).


 
1a) To me, "must have left" or "had to leave" often have different meanings as well.  Sometimes they mean the same thing; more often they don't.  And touché, I somehow deleted "eu" while editing my reply---J'avais eu = plus que parfait.

As for the rest, even in English saying "I should have made a mistake" requires a strange context.  However, you can't say "I shouldn't have made a mistake" if you can't also say "I should have made a mistake," nor could you make it a question "Should(n't) I have made a mistake?"


----------



## wh1949

mec_américain said:


> 1a) As for the rest, even in English saying "I should have made a mistake" requires a strange context.  However, *you can't say* "I shouldn't have made a mistake" *if you can't also say* "I should have made a mistake," nor could you make it a question "Should(n't) I have made a mistake?"




I think I agree with you there & in fact I've just thought up a plausible context. How about this? Someone is assigned a very difficult & complicated task with a million ways of going wrong in it. To everybody's astonishment, including & especially his own, he performs it successfully. Relieved, he exclaims "Whew! That's amazing. *I should have made a mistake* (but by some miracle I didn't)".

However, I'm not sure this helps with translating from the French. I think "se tromper" means "to make a mistake" only in the sense of "to be mistaken". (Si je ne me trompe(pas)! But perhaps I am wrong?) Clearly, "I should have been mistaken" could not be substituted into the context above; it wouldn't work at all.


----------



## Kay Champs

To think about the meanings of "avoir dû faire qch" and "devoir avoir fait qch" using "should have done sth" does not make the difference between probability (supposition) and obligation (advisability) clear because "should have done sth" means both probability and obligation. 

 (e.g., advisability: vous auriez dû etre professeur = you should have been a teacher or probability: il a dû arriver à l'heure qu'il est = he should have got there by now; (as cited from my e-f dico))  

 Donc, nous aurions dû utiliser "will probably have done sth" for probability (supposition) for the sake of clarity.  Too late?


----------

