# Levantine Colloquial: in order to, so



## SarahBeth

I recall seeing "madam" being used to say "in order to", but could be wrong.  How would you use it (or whatever the correct phrasing is) to say, "I went there so that I could (in order to) see my friends".  Other sentence examples would be helpful, too 

Thanks!


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## elroy

"In order to" is عشان (pronunciation: 3ashaan) and not ما دام, which means "given that/considering/since." 

I went there so that I could (in order to) see my friends: رحت هناك *عشان* أشوف صحابي

Since your ride is going to be late, why don't you take a nap?: *ما دام* توصيلتك رح تتأخر، ليش ما توخدلكش غفوة؟


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## linguist786

Would the "عشان" also be used in MSA, or is it just a colloquial expression?


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## elroy

linguist786 said:
			
		

> Would the "عشان" also be used in MSA, or is it just a colloquial expression?


 It's only colloquial.


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## linguist786

Oh yes - I should have known really. I myself made a thread about it before. I just remembered that.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=184339


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## Soos

you can also say 7atta, which is used very often in lebanon. you may abbreviate it as "ta" as well. for example there's an expression "2dammy t2shoof" which is a flirtatious expression meaning, "walk in front of me so i can see (and admire)".  but be warned, "7atta" can also mean "even" as in "even if i knew where he was i wouldn't tell you" = "7atta law 3reft wayn kan ma b7keek".


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## be.010

In Syria, مشان/منشان/حتى/لحتى/لَ are common...


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## Soos

Yes, definitely "la" I have heard in Leb too.


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## TheArabicStudent

I like the "ta" because it's just like English. "I need to go home to (ta) pick up some stuff."  When I first hear my Lebanese teacher use "ta" I thought he was just throwing in some English. lol


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## ihsaan

elroy said:


> "In order to" is عشان (pronunciation: 3ashaan) and not ما دام, which means "given that/considering/since."
> 
> I went there so that I could (in order to) see my friends: رحت هناك *عشان* أشوف صحابي
> 
> Since your ride is going to be late, why don't you take a nap?: *ما دام* توصيلتك رح تتأخر، ليش ما توخدلكش غفوة؟


 
Would it be possible to write this out in latin letters as well?


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## Soos

Ahlan ya ishaan! tfaDDal:
-maa daam
-3shaan
-ru7it hunaak 3shaan ashoof Sa7aaby.
-maa daam tuSeeltak tita2kher, leysh ma tukhedlaksh ghafwa?


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## ihsaan

Thank you!


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## elroy

I'm sorry, Soos, but your transliteration isn't accurate, at least not for Palestinian Arabic.

رحت هناك *عشان* أشوف صحابي - ru7et hunaak 3ashaan ashuuf iS7aabi
*ما دام* توصيلتك رح تتأخر، ليش ما توخدلكش غفوة؟ - ma daam tawSiiltak ra7 tit2akhkhar, leesh ma tukhudilkaash ghafwe?


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## clevermizo

This use of _ma daam_ is interesting, because in Syrian Arabic I learned it to mean "while." Can it function in Syrian also to mean since/considering (as apparently in Palestinian)? 

_nbasaTə__t ktiir ma daam kənt b-nyuu yoork.
_I had a good time while I was in New York.

Or maybe I'm thinking too much about it as "I had a good time considering I was in New York" although awkward in English could give a similar meaning, so the two meanings may be intertwined in _ma daam_.



elroy said:


> *ما دام* توصيلتك رح تتأخر، ليش ما توخدلكش غفوة؟ - ma daam tawSiiltak ra7 tit2akhkhar, leesh ma tukhudilk*aa*sh ghafwe?



Fascinating! You add a long vowel between l(a)k-sh? Because I assume in the positive, it is tukh*u*dl*a*k. I was only aware of lengthening when the morpheme already ends in a vowel.


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## be.010

Hi!


clevermizo said:


> This use of _ma daam_ is interesting, because in Syrian Arabic I learned it to mean "while." Can it function in Syrian also to mean since/considering (as apparently in Palestinian)?


 
Actually, it does mean "since" or "considering" in Syrian as in Palestinian, and as in fuS7a, too! It could also mean "as long as..."
E.g. ma daam l mftaa7 ma3i, fini ə6la3 eemta ma bəddi.
i.e. As long as I have the key, I can go out anytime.

I don't think it works for "while", especially in the statement



> _nbasaTət ktiir ma daam  *wa2ət* kənt b-nyuu yoork._
> I had a good time while I was in New York.


 
Best ragards!


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## clevermizo

be.010 said:


> Hi!
> 
> 
> Actually, it does mean "since" or "considering" in Syrian as in Palestinian, and as in fuS7a, too! It could also mean "as long as..."
> E.g. ma daam l mftaa7 ma3i, fini ə6la3 eemta ma bəddi.
> i.e. As long as I have the key, I can go out anytime.
> 
> I don't think it works for "while", especially in the statement
> 
> 
> 
> Best ragards!



Thanks for the correction. My original textbook used it for the meaning of "while." It had the example:

_Leesh ma rə7t 3a Ostraalya ma daam kənt b-nyuu ziilaanda?
_and glossed it as: _Why didn't you go to Australia *while* you were in New Zealand?_

(or, something similar, I can't remember the exact wording at the moment.)


And come to think of it, "considering you were in New Zealand" even makes better sense of this in English, but I guess that's where I got the wrong idea.


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## elroy

clevermizo said:


> Fascinating! You add a long vowel between l(a)k-sh? Because I assume in the positive, it is tukh*u*dl*a*k. I was only aware of lengthening when the morpheme already ends in a vowel.


 Yup.

tukhudlak, tukhudilkaash
tukhdiilek, tukhdilkiish
tukhduulkom/tukhduulku, tukhduulkommesh/tukhduulkuush


clevermizo said:


> _Leesh ma rə7t 3a Ostraalya ma daam kənt b-nyuu ziilaanda?
> _and glossed it as: _Why didn't you go to Australia *while* you were in New Zealand?_


 That's a bad translation.  The meaning is definitely "considering," "since," "seeing as how," etc.


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## Sidjanga

elroy said:


> I went there so that I could (in order to) see my friends: رحت هناك *عشان* أشوف صحابي


Is عشان\منشان obligatory here, or could I also say رحت هناك أشوف اصحابي without changing the meaning?

Similarly: How would I say _I went to the library (in order) to study._?

.رحت عالمكتبة أدرس and/or .رحت عالمكتبة عشان أدرس ?


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## إسكندراني

مادام = as long as
علشان، عشان، مشان، من أجل، لـ، حتّىٰ، باش = so that


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## elroy

Sidjanga said:


> Is عشان\منشان obligatory here, or could I also say رحت هناك أشوف اصحابي without changing the meaning?
> 
> Similarly: How would I say _I went to the library (in order) to study._?
> 
> .رحت عالمكتبة أدرس and/or .رحت عالمكتبة عشان أدرس ?


 You can drop عشان in both sentences.


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