# reliably detect



## elroy

_ This course is designed to ensure that students can reliably detect explosive trace._

How would you render "reliably detect" in this context?

I have العثور بثقة على آثار المتفجرات but I'm not totally confident about it.  Is بثقة redundant?  Would you use a different verb?

Thanks!


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## I.K.S.

How about: الكشف عن أثر المتفجرات بشكل فعال


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## elroy

Does that convey the meaning that the things they detect actually are explosive traces?


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## Mahaodeh

It does, is that what you are looking for or are the 'explosives' a metaphor for something else?


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## cherine

elroy said:


> _ This course is designed to ensure that students can reliably detect explosive trace._


You may need to explain what reliably mean. Does it mean that the employer can rely on the students to detect the traces? Does it mean that the students will succeed in detecting the traces?...?

In the meantime, I suggest:
مُعَدّ لضمان نجاح الطُلاّب في اكتشاف أثر المتفجرات
(which could be wrong if I misunderstood "reliably"  )


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## elroy

I think it means that they don't over-detect or under-detect.  They don't detect things that turn out not to be explosive traces, nor do they fail to detect anything that is an explosive trace.  Their detection abilities are reliable.  "Explosive trace" is meant literally here.  The context is airport security.


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## momai

I like the suggestion by Cherine, I personally would have rendered it this way:
هذه الدورة معدّة لضمان أن الطلاب قادرين وبشكل موثوق منه على ايجاد أي أثر للمتفجرات.


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## Mahaodeh

I would go with الشاوية and use فعالية. I also agree that using ضمان for ensure is a good idea:
هذه الدورة معدّة لضمان قدرة الطلاب على إيجاد أثآر المتفجرات بفعّاليّة


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## rayloom

Reliability (and validity) have become technical scientific terms in the context of measurements. 
Reliability is usually translated using a derivative of وثق in Arabic scientific contexts. So I think using بثقة as you initially suggested or بشكل موثوق as momai suggested would be preferable. I would probably go with بثقة.


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## elroy

I did end up using فعّالية; I used هذه الدورة مُصَمَّمة للتأكّد من أن الطلاب بإمكانهم الكشف بفعّالية عن آثار المتفجرات.

But because فعّالية isn't exactly the same as reliability and there doesn't seem to be an available substitute that is both natural and closer to the meaning, I think the strategy of fronting the idea of reliability is perfect in this case, so if I hadn't already delivered this translation I would use something like

هذه الدورة مُصَمَّمة لضمان إمكانية الاعتماد على قدرة الطلاب على الكشف عن آثار المتفجرات

(That seems a little wordy and could probably use some tweaking, but that's the basic "mold" I would work with.)

I often rely on [_sic_ ] strategies like this when translating from English into Arabic, but this time I didn't think of this one. 


rayloom said:


> So I think using بثقة as you initially suggested or بشكل موثوق as momai suggested would be preferable.


 I had considered بشكل موثوق به but I found it cumbersome and unnatural in Arabic, and it felt like a forced translation.  بثقة flows well, of course, but I wasn't sure if the meaning was clear. بثقة can mean "with confidence," and you can do something with confidence and still do a bad job!


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## cherine

elroy said:


> I did end up using فعّالية


I don't know if it's a typo, but just in case someone thinks this is how it's read, فعالية doesn't have a shadda on the 3ayn but a fat7a.
And another form is بشكل فَعّال though it's longer.


> I had considered بشكل موثوق به but I found it cumbersome and unnatural in Arabic, and it felt like a forced translation.  بثقة flows well, of course, but I wasn't sure if the meaning was clear. بثقة can mean "with confidence," and you can do something with confidence and still do a bad job!


Correct. They share the same root, but have a different meaning  بثقة means that one has confidence in oneself, while بشكل موثوق به/موثوق فيه means that others can trust the thing/person.
And I don't think بشكل موثوق به is force or unnatural, so you don't need to worry about this. 

Another similar structure (and also long, unfortunately) is بشكل يمكن الاعتماد عليه.


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## elroy

cherine said:


> فعالية doesn't have a shadda on the 3ayn but a fat7a.


 Oh, I didn't know that!  I thought it was just like فعّال but with a suffix.  Are there other examples like this?


cherine said:


> And I don't think بشكل موثوق به is force or unnatural, so you don't need to worry about this.


 It could just be me, but it feels forced and unnatural to me.  It doesn't strike me as something that a monolingual native speaker would write. 





cherine said:


> Another similar structure (and also long, unfortunately) is بشكل يمكن الاعتماد عليه.


 Again, it could just be me, but this one sounds even more forced and unnatural to me. 

By the way, I don't think I was clear in my last post about the strategy of fronting the idea of reliability.  I was actually referring to your own suggestion, cherine: مُعَدّ لضمان نجاح الطُلاّب في اكتشاف أثر المتفجرات, where نجاح is the object of ضمان.  I took that template and substituted "reliability" for نجاح, yielding my recent suggestion:

cherine: مُعَدّ لضمان نجاح الطُلاّب في اكتشاف أثر المتفجرات
elroy: هذه الدورة مُصَمَّمة لضمان إمكانية الاعتماد على قدرة الطلاب على الكشف عن آثار المتفجرات


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## Mahaodeh

cherine said:


> فعالية doesn't have a shadda on the 3ayn but a fat7a



Are you sure? From what I know that these types of nouns are created by simply adding الياء والتاء المربوطة to the end with the word intact, so it should have a shadda on the 3ayn.


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## cherine

elroy said:


> Oh, I didn't know that!  I thought it was just like فعّال but with a suffix.  Are there other examples like this?


I'm afraid I can't think of other similar examples.  But if others can, that would be helpful.


> It could just be me, but it feels forced and unnatural to me.  It doesn't strike me as something that a monolingual native speaker would write.  Again, it could just be me, but this one sounds even more forced and unnatural to me.


It could be a recent literal translation, but it's become so common now that it doesn't surprise me at all.


Mahaodeh said:


> Are you sure? From what I know that these types of nouns are created by simply adding الياء والتاء المربوطة to the end with the word intact, so it should have a shadda on the 3ayn.


Which brings us back to Elroy's question: can you think of other similar examples?
And to answer your question, yes I'm sure. It is with a fat7a not a shadda, at least this is how it's used in Egypt (MSA, not colloquial).


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## Abu Talha

How about
ليضمن أن الطالب يستطيع أن يعثر على آثار المتفجرات عثورًا موثوقًا به.
or
عثورا يوثق به


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## rayloom

Modern dictionaries list it as فعّاليّة with a shadda on the 3ayn.


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## cherine

Abu Talha said:


> How about
> ليضمن أن الطالب يستطيع أن يعثر على آثار المتفجرات عثورًا موثوقًا به.
> or
> عثورا يوثق به


I don't think it works because the reliability describes the ability to find the traces, not the quality of the find.



rayloom said:


> Modern dictionaries list it as فعّاليّة with a shadda on the 3ayn.


Thanks! It must be a regional difference then.
Can you think of other words formed the same way/one the same pattern?


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## rayloom

cherine said:


> Thanks! It must be a regional difference then.
> Can you think of other words formed the same way/one the same pattern?



شفافية is listed in the form of a maSdar shafaafiya and a maSdar Sinaa3iyy shaffaafiyya in dictionaries.
I can't recall other examples. But technically the maSdar Sinaa3iyy can be derived from any derived (or underived) form with just adding a yaa al-nisba and the feminine marker. For example you can even say موثوقية to mean reliability, and notice how it's the passive participle form + -iyya, and بموثوقية would be with reliability or reliably. 
I can think of other words in the form fa33aal with a yaa al-nisba, most notably قذّافي


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## elroy

شفّاف/شفافية is a great example!  I never noticed the discrepancy.

Back to the translation: What do you all think of this: 

لضمان قدرة الطلاب على الكشف عن آثار المتفجرات بنتائج موثوق بها


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## rayloom

elroy said:


> شفّاف/شفافية is a great example!  I never noticed the discrepancy.
> 
> Back to the translation: What do you all think of this:
> 
> لضمان قدرة الطلاب على الكشف عن آثار المتفجرات بنتائج موثوق بها



I like it. It refers clearly to the reliability of the results.


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