# Vowel length and stress in "Divide et Impera!"



## Wordspin18

*Hello to everyone!
*
I'd like to know the correct intonation of the original Latin for "divide and rule!", notably:
- di-vi-de, do I assume correctly that the tonic accent is on the first syllable: *di-*vi-de, and that syllable 1 is long, but syllables 2 & 3 both short?
- im-pe-ra, 
is it im-*pe*-ra: stress on the 2nd syllable, and syllables 2 and 3 both long? Someone told me that the a in the last syllable is long and therefore also the e is long.
or is it *im*-pe-ra, having a dactylus structure, like I assume for divide?

If it is not too much to ask, why are these vowels long or short?

The context? Now and then the expression pops up in my mind, mainly when observing the methods used by certain individuals in positions of responsibility.

*Many thanks in advance!*


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## Agró

Ciao.
L'articolo della wiki in spagnolo dice
Las máximas latinas *divide et impera* (pronunciado: _diuíde et impéra_, «divide y domina»), y sus variantes: (...).

Quello in italiano, invece,
_*Dīvĭdĕ et ĭmpĕrā*_ (pronuncia _dìvide et ìmpera_; letteralmente «dividi e comanda») è una locuzione latina secondo cui (...)

Non so dirti di più perchè non ho mai saputo come affetta sia la lunghezza o la brevità all'accento in latino.


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## Wordspin18

Hola!

Te agradezco mucho por tu respuesta.

Una pequena parte de misterio persiste:
- wiki espanol y wiki italiano ponen el acento tonico en silabas diferentes - primeras silabas por wiki italiano, segundas por wiki espanol. Podria ser que hay dos escuelas nacionales?

Quizas alguien de nuestros amigos de WR podria decir algo sobre la longitud de las vocales en las dos ultimas silabas de impera ...

No sabia que la expresion viene del griego:  διαίρει καὶ βασίλευε .


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## entangledbank

The Italian version has both the length marking and the accent correct. _Di-_ is long, probably in compensation for loss of a consonant, coming from _dis_ "twice, in two". _Divid(e(re))_ is a consonant stem, with an occasional short _-e-_ or _-i-_ needed to make forms more pronounceable. _Impera(re)_ however is first conjugation, the stem being _impera-_ with long _-a-_, a very common way of forming verbs. That's why the imperative ending is short in _divide_ but long in _impera_.


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## bearded

entangledbank said:


> the imperative ending


It seems to me that the issue concerns the syllables -vi- in_ divide,_ and -pe- in_ impera_, and not the endings. Depending on long or short vi/pe (respectively) the position of the stresses can be determined.. It's the penultimate syllable that matters.
Now, I'm sure that the correct stresses are* di*vide et* im*pera.  Usually, when there are doubts about the length of a syllable, one should examine the use of the relevant word in Latin poetry. Metrics can reveal length or shortness. I am confident that experts will be able to find some quotations confirming my statement.


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## Snodv

This is what we learned about stress accents in Latin class.  First, we have an advantage in our textbooks which the Romans didn't have:  our textbook and dictionary authors have marked certain vowels with long marks, based on the work of scholars.  But the penultimate syllable is the one which matters.  It is long if so marked; if it is a diphthong; or if it is followed by two consonants.  If none of those things apply, then the accent is on the antepenult.  It is never  on the ultimate syllable. (What! Never? "Hardly ever! He is hardly ever sick at sea!" Well, maybe in _adhuc_, which is a compound of two words, the first with a short vowel and the second with a long.)  And it never goes further toward the beginning of a word than the antepenult.


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## entangledbank

A pertinent point, in that two common English derivatives use long vowels in those key syllables: _divide_ and _imperial_. But whoever marked all the vowels in *Dīvĭdĕ et ĭmpĕrā* would have had good reason for doing so. They're both common words, and the key vowels are in open syllables so there's no doubt about their value when found in poetry. (Also I happened to know this already. Also I looked them up in Wiktionary in case my knowledge was faulty.)


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## Scholiast

saluete omnes!

It must be remembered here that syllable-length (for scansion in verse and metrical prosody) is not the same thing as syllabic stress (_ictus_). In dissyllabic words, the stress normally falls on the first syllable, irrespective of the length of either. So for example _vírō_, _hóstēs_; and when trisyllables are formed with the addition of a prepositional prefix, this usually still applies (_abéō_, _indúcunt_, _constáre_). Things become more complicated with tetrasyllables or pentasyllables, which commonly will have one minor and one major stress, usually on the first and third (_cóniectúra_, _fórmidábilis_).

I'm not quite sure, however, about _divide_: as entangledbank remarked (#3), it comes from _dis_ + _vĭd-_, and my instinct is to say _dīvíde_, though I agree that _ímperā_ would be right.

Sorry I cannot on this occasion provide an authoritative chapter-and-verse reference for this.

Σ


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## Wordspin18

Thanks to all for your valuable replies.



bearded said:


> Usually, *when there are doubts about the length of a syllable, one should examine the use of the relevant word in Latin poetry.* Metrics can reveal length or shortness.


 In today's languages, judging from the little I have read and remember, due to _*poetic license *_words may part with the standard form (in terms of stress and vowel length) which they have in speech and prose. When writing poetry, did the Romans stick rigorously to the standard forms of words, as used in speech and prose?



Snodv said:


> This is what we learned about stress accents in Latin class. (...) the penultimate syllable is the one which matters.  It is long if so marked; if it is a diphthong; or if it is followed by two consonants.  If none of those things apply, then the accent is on the antepenult.  It is never  on the ultimate syllable.


With that the question where the stress is appears to be solved.



entangledbank said:


> The Italian version has both the length marking and the accent correct. _Di-_ is long, probably in compensation for loss of a consonant, coming from _dis_ "twice, in two". _Divid(e(re))_ is a consonant stem, with an occasional short _-e-_ or _-i-_ needed to make forms more pronounceable. _Impera(re)_ however is first conjugation, the stem being _impera-_ with long _-a-_, a very common way of forming verbs. That's why the imperative ending is short in _divide_ but long in _impera_.





entangledbank said:


> two common English derivatives use long vowels in those key syllables: _divide_ and _imperial_. But whoever marked all the vowels in *Dīvĭdĕ et ĭmpĕrā* would have had good reason for doing so. They're both common words, and the key vowels are in open syllables so there's no doubt about their value when found in poetry.


Could you link in where I can read about the short vowel e in impera? It may be due to the influence of contemporary Italian, but ever since someone told me the e in impera is long,both a short and a long e sound natural to me.

Would the vowel lenghts remain the same in "divide*t* et impera*t"*?


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## Wordspin18

Scholiast said:


> saluete omnes!
> 
> It must be remembered here that syllable-length (for scansion in verse and metrical prosody) is not the same thing as syllabic stress (_ictus_). In dissyllabic words, the stress normally falls on the first syllable, irrespective of the length of either. So for example _vírō_, _hóstēs_; and when trisyllables are formed with the addition of a prepositional prefix, this usually still applies (_abéō_, _indúcunt_, _constáre_). Things become more complicated with tetrasyllables or pentasyllables, which commonly will have one minor and one major stress, usually on the first and third (_cóniectúra_, _fórmidábilis_).
> 
> I'm not quite sure, however, about _divide_: as entangledbank remarked (#3), it comes from _dis_ + _vĭd-_, and my instinct is to say _dīvíde_, though I agree that _ímperā_ would be right.
> 
> Sorry I cannot on this occasion provide an authoritative chapter-and-verse reference for this.
> 
> Σ


I was writing my previous post while you were posting yours.
How does it apply to the length of e in impera?
I understand that -pe- is unstressed ("ictus" is a scary word in Italian, it is the equivalent of "stroke"), but can't the e be both: short and long?


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## bearded

Wordspin18 said:


> can't the e be both: short and long?


I think it can't: it's either or.  If it were long, it would also be stressed ('rule' of the penultimate syllable).
At Italian High Schools they teach that the very common_ Divide et impera_ has to be pronounced with a stress on the respective first syllable - with both -vi- and -pe- being short.
In fact,_ divide et impera_ is often used (by Romance-philology teachers) as a typical example of how stresses were shifted in the transition from Latin to Italian - since in Italian we say_ di*vi*di e im*pe*ra._


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## Wordspin18

bearded said:


> _Divide et impera_ has to be pronounced with a stress on the respective first syllable - with both -vi- and -pe- being short.
> In fact,_ divide et impera_ is often used (by Romance-philology teachers) as a typical example of *how stresses were shifted in the transition from Latin to Italian* - since in Italian we say_ di*vi*di e im*pe*ra._


Thank you very much.

Could you mention the title of a high school text book or provide a link for further reading on this matter?


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## Scholiast

Wordspin18 said:


> a high school text book


This link should send you to the relevant page in A&G's _New Grammar. _You need to scroll down to the subsection on 'Accent' on that page.

Σ


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## Wordspin18

Thank you.


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## bearded

To Wordspin:
If you can read Italian, on this Google page you can find links to articles illustrating the phonologic transition from late/vulgar Latin to Italian:
testi fonologia latino volgare


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## Wordspin18

Assolutamente si'! Grazie infinite!


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## bearded

È stato un piacere


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## Wordspin18




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