# German Umlaut - a letter with two dots



## Whodunit

How do you call our German umlauts in other languages (as many as possible   )? I mean "ä", "ö, "ü", and "ß". In elementary school, I was told to say "a/o/u with two dots" and "eszett". But now I do wonder how to say it. I also like to know the words in French, Spanish, Arabic etc.


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## Sev

Whodunit said:
			
		

> How do you call our German umlauts in other languages (as many as possible  )? I mean "ä", "ö, "ü", and "ß". In elementary school, I was told to say "a/o/u with two dots" and "eszett". But now I do wonder how to say it. I also like to know the words in French, Spanish, Arabic etc.


I'm gonna try auf Deutsch... 
Französich : Umlaut kann "umlaut" oder "tréma" sein, und "ß" ist "eszett", wie du gesagt hast.

_<Mod's note: Off-topic comment deleted.>_


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## Cathurian

In unsere Deutsche Klasse, sagten wir "a umlaut", "u umlaut", usw.

ß ist auch für uns "eszett".


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## elroy

You can also call it a diaresis in English.  In German classes, though, you will almost invariably call it an "Umlaut."

I don't know how to say it in Arabic.  I would probably just say "nu2titein" (nuqtatan) which just means "two dots"!


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## Magg

In Spanish:

*ß --> beta
¨ --> diéresis*

The Spanish alphabet doen´t have "ß´s" but it does "¨"  in few words, just to avoid mispronunciation. (Hmmm, does "mispronunciation" exist in English?  )

Magg


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## Whodunit

Sev said:
			
		

> I'm gonna try auf Deutsch...
> Französich : Umlaut kann "umlaut" oder "tréma" sein, und "ß" ist "eszett", wie du gesagt hast.



<Mod's note: Reply to a deleted post.>

I'm afraid you all got me a bit wrong, except for Cathurian. I wanted to have in all languages: (the thing with the ß was okay)

ä = ? (a avec umlaut?)
ö = ? (o with to dots?)
ü = ? (u ma'a nuqtatan?)

Thanks for your replies, though.


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## Sev

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I'm afraid you all got me a bit wrong, except for Cathurian. I wanted to have in all languages: (the thing with the ß was okay)
> ä = ? (a avec umlaut?)
> ö = ? (o with two dots?)
> ü = ? (u ma'a nuqtatan?)
> Thanks for your replies, though.


Danke schön. Wir sagen "a umlaut" (kein "avec").


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## timpeac

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Very good German. "Es ist 4 Jahre her", but the rest was fine!
> 
> I'm afraid you all got me a bit wrong, except for Cathurian. I wanted to have in all languages: (the thing with the ß was okay)
> 
> ä = ? (a avec umlaut?)
> ö = ? (o with to dots?)
> ü = ? (u ma'a nuqtatan?)
> 
> Thanks for your replies, though.


 
I would say "e umlaut" for example.


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## Whodunit

timpeac said:
			
		

> I would say "e umlaut" for example.



You mean "e tréma"? *"ë"*


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## timpeac

Whodunit said:
			
		

> You mean "e tréma"? *"ë"*


 
No, "e umlaut". I only know the word "tréma" through French. Is it English too


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## Whodunit

timpeac said:
			
		

> No, "e umlaut". I only know the word "tréma" through French. Is it English too



Not sure. In German it's "Trema". What else did you mean then? ë is not "e umlaut"?


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## timpeac

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Not sure. In German it's "Trema". What else did you mean then? ë is not "e umlaut"?


 
I'm sorry, but you've completely lost me.

Let's start again. In English I would describe this symbol ë as "e umlaut".

Alles klar?


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## Whodunit

timpeac said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but you've completely lost me.
> 
> Let's start again. In English I would describe this symbol ë as "e umlaut".
> 
> Alles klar?



Ah ok, now I found you again.    Sorry that I lost you.


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## MrMagoo

Interesting confusing discussion... 

May I add that "ë" is no umlaut.
The two dots above this e is, as whodunit pointed out, called a "Trema". 
A Trema shows you that two vowels in a word have to be pronounced separately, e.g. in the French word "Citroën".

Only a, o, and u can take an Umlaut --> ä, ö, ü.
The two dots here are derived from a former e that was put above the actual letters a, o, u to show that these vowels have umlauted, and therefore changed their pronunciation.
That is why you can substitute ä, ö, ü by ae, oe, ue when you can't type Umlauts.

Hope I could help 
-MrMagoo


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## timpeac

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Interesting confusing discussion...
> 
> May I add that "ë" is no umlaut.
> The two dots above this e is, as whodunit pointed out, called a "Trema".
> A Trema shows you that two vowels in a word have to be pronounced separately, e.g. in the French word "Citroën".
> 
> Only a, o, and u can take an Umlaut --> ä, ö, ü.
> The two dots here are derived from a former e that was put above the actual letters a, o, u to show that these vowels have umlauted, and therefore changed their pronunciation.
> That is why you can substitute ä, ö, ü by ae, oe, ue when you can't type Umlauts.
> 
> Hope I could help
> -MrMagoo


 
Ah, ok thanks for explaing what the problem was.

I'm sure you're completely right about the etymology of these words etc. However, I think a lot of English speakers would call ë "e umlaut". I don't remember "trema" being used in English, and "dieresis" is quite rare.

I'm talking here about general usage (well as general as you can be given that you're discussing the addition of dots above a letter!) rather than German linguistics, of which I know a little less than zero .


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## Outsider

We call the umlaut sign _trema_ or _diérese_, in Portuguese.


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Only a, o, and u can take an Umlaut --> ä, ö, ü.
> The two dots here are derived from a former e that was put above the actual letters a, o, u to show that these vowels have umlauted, and therefore changed their pronunciation.
> That is why you can substitute ä, ö, ü by ae, oe, ue when you can't type Umlauts.



I'm not quite sure, but I think in Spanish and French "u" can take a trema, and is pronounced differently from our German ü. Look here, and swich to "Deutsch", just for the title.


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## alc112

ä; a  (con) diérisis
ö: o (con) diérisis
ü: u (con) diérisis

We use ü, for some words like Cigüena and Vergüenza . we just use it in güe and güi and pronunce it as a u.
Cheers


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## Whodunit

alc112 said:
			
		

> ä; a  (con) diérisis
> ö: o (con) diérisis
> ü: u (con) diérisis



Thank you very much.



			
				alc112 said:
			
		

> We use ü, for some words like Cigüena and Vergüenza . we just use it in güe and güi and pronunce it as a u.
> Cheers



This is what I meant in my previous post.


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## alc112

Whodunit said:
			
		

> Thank you very much.


 
You're welcome.
Note: I think there isn't a way to call ä,ö and ü. I say them as my teacher does.


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## elroy

Having read your earlier posts, I was also going to comment that the word "Umlaut" is used strictly to refer to the three German letters that take Umlauts.  Otherwise the sign is called a "diaresis."  For anyone who has studied diacritical marks, I don't find the term rare at all, at least no rarer than trema.  In fact, I think "trema" is just a French alternative word for "diaresis."


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> ü = ? (u ma'a nuqtatan?)



*Ma'a nuqtatayn*, Who!   

How could you forget?!!  

And yes, I would say that in Arabic.


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## elroy

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> This Trema does actually not occur in German, and I'm pretty sure English doesn't use it either



You're right; old English uses the grave accent in such situations. (belovèd)


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> *Ma'a nuqtatayn*, Who!
> 
> How could you forget?!!
> 
> And yes, I would say that in Arabic.



You said "nuqtatan" in your previous post.


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## elroy

Whodunit said:
			
		

> You said "nuqtatan" in your previous post.



Nominative - Akkusative/Dative


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## Whodunit

elroy said:
			
		

> Nominative - Akkusative/Dative



He, you know how basic my Arabic is.


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## MrMagoo

Whodunit said:
			
		

> I'm not quite sure, but I think in Spanish and French "u" can take a trema, and is pronounced differently from our German ü. Look here, and swich to "Deutsch", just for the title.


 
Right, but they are pronounced like the French or Spanish "u".
The Trema in the Spanish word _Güe_ also shows that the vowel "u" is pronounced - as well as the Trema in the French word Citroën, but it does not indicate a change of pronunciation from its original sound represented in Spanish "u" or French "e". It's a sign that two vowels are to be said separately and do not fall together to one single sound or a diphthong.

An Umlaut on the other hand is a change of pronunciation from its original vowel-sound such as German u is pronounced as  but ü is pronounced as [y].


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## Whodunit

MrMagoo said:
			
		

> Right, but they are pronounced like the French or Spanish "u".
> The Trema in the Spanish word _Güe_ also shows that the vowel "u" is pronounced - as well as the Trema in the French word Citroën, but it does not indicate a change of pronunciation from its original sound represented in Spanish "u" or French "e". It's a sign that two vowels are to be said separately and do not fall together to one single sound or a diphthong.
> 
> An Umlaut on the other hand is a change of pronunciation from its original vowel-sound such as German u is pronounced as  but ü is pronounced as [y].




Yes, that's exactly the point I meant.


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## Spidney

how would the umlaut be pronounced in english (does the umlaut sound like any english us words)


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## André Buzzulini

Wir sagen "trema" in Brasilien.

Viele Grüße!


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## berndf

Spidney said:


> how would the umlaut be pronounced in english (does the umlaut sound like any english us words)


The a-umlaut sounds like "e" in English "b*e*d". A-umlauting occurred  in Old English as well. This e.g. explains the "e" in _l*e*ngth_ which is derived from Old English _lang_ (Modern English _long_).

The o- and u- umlauts have no equivalent in English (English has no rounded front vowels). Monolingual English speakers are usually unable to pronounce these vowels. The o-umlaut is vaguely similar to the vowel in British English "bird" though the production is very different.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:

¨ --> «διαλυτικά» (ðialiti'ka, _pl. nom. n._)*[1]*, lit. "solvents/dissolvents", or «τελ(ε)ίτσες»*[2]* (te'litses, _pl. nom. fem._), lit. "little dots". 
ß--> «βήτα» ('vita, _n._)

*[1]*Adj. «διαλυτικός, -κή, -κό» (ðialiti'kos, _m._/ðialiti'ci, _f._/ðialiti'ko, _n._); Classical adj. «διαλυτικός, -κὴ, -κόν» (dĭălŭtī'kŏs, _m._/dĭălŭtī'kē, _f._/dĭălŭtī'kŏn, _n._)--> _destructive, able to break off or dissolve_. Compound, prefix and preposition «διὰ» (dī'ă)--> _through, throughout_ (PIE base *duwo, _two_) + Classical verb «λύω» (lūō)--> _to unbind, unfasten, loosen_ (PIE base *leu-, _to loosen, divide, cut apart_).
*[2]*«Τελ(ε)ίτσα» (te'litsa, _f._), diminutive of «τελεία» (te'lia, _f._)--> _dot, full stop_; Hellenistic adjectival noun «τελεία» (tĕ'leiă, _f._)--> _full, perfect, fulfilled, accomplished_. The phrase was «τελεία στιγμὴ» (tĕ'leiă stīgmē)--> _full stop_ (the punctuation mark began used in punctuation in Hellenistic era) 


Whodunit said:


> You mean "e tréma"? *"ë"*


In Greek a «τρήμα» ('trima, _n._), Classical «τρῆμα» ('trēmă, _n._) describes any _perforation, aperture, orifice _(PIE base *terē-, _to rub, bore_)


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## Frank78

apmoy70 said:


> ß--> «βήτα» ('vita, _n._)



You call it "beta" despite "ß" resembles "ss"?


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*:

Since ä and ö are native Finnish letters, we don't need to say "a with two dots", the letter names _ää _and _öö_ are enough. On the other hand, _ü_ has its own name: _saksalainen yy_ 'German why'.

However, the letters ä, ö (and sometimes å, _ruotsalainen oo_ 'Swedish oh') are often referred to as _ääkköset_, particularly when they are missing because of technical problems.

_Hän lähetti viestin USA:sta, ja siksi se oli kirjoitettu ilman ääkkösiä. "Mita sina olet tehnyt tanaan taman asian hyvaksi?"_ 
He sent the message in the USA, and that's why it was written without the letters ä and ö: "What have you done today for this matter?"


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## apmoy70

Frank78 said:


> You call it "beta" despite "ß" resembles "ss"?


For us it resembles the lowercase B
ß (eszett)
β (lowercase or curled beta)


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## bibax

In Czech:

*přehláska* = umlaut, der Umlaut (generally as a phenomenon);
*přehlasovaný* = umlauted;

ä, ö, ü - _*přehlasované a, o, u*_ (= umlauted a, o, u);
ß - *ostré es* (= sharp es, scharfes es);

β (beta) is something else than ß.


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## Orlin

In Bulgarian they're normally as in German, only transliterated into Cyrillic: _a, o, u умлаут_; _есцет_. Sometimes, mostly informally, it's said _a, o, u с 2 точки _(with 2 dots - like the way the umlaut looks like in writing).


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## Favara

In Catalan, we call the "two dots" _dièresi_. So, an Ü would be _U amb dièresi_.
In our language we only use Ü and Ï, to show that the U in güe/güi/qüe/qüi is pronounced (like in spanish) or to "break" a diphthong (_*ai*re, r*aï*m ->_ *ai*-re, r*a*-*ï*m).


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## Orlin

Favara said:


> In Catalan, we call the "two dots" _dièresi_. So, an Ü would be _U amb dièresi_.


In fact, in Bulgarian the diacritical mark in the form of 2 dots is often called _трема_ (from French _tréma_), but _трема_ is _(practically) never_ used when we talk about German, only when French or some other languages are meant.


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## berndf

Orlin said:


> In fact, in Bulgarian the diacritical mark in the form of 2 dots is often called _трема_ (from French _tréma_), but _трема_ is _(practically) never_ used when we talk about German, only when French or some other languages are meant.


Which makes sense because _diaresis/trema_ and _umlaut_ are quite distinct marks serving completely different purposes. Umlaut marks originally looked different: like this " or this ˮ (derived from the shape of the lower case "e" in old German handwriting). In printed Antiqua (as opposed the German Blackletter), they were assimilated in shape to the trema, probably to make it easier for typesetting.


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## apmoy70

Favara said:


> In Catalan, we call the "two dots" _dièresi_. So, an Ü would be _U amb dièresi_.
> In our language we only use Ü and Ï, to show that the U in güe/güi/qüe/qüi is pronounced (like in spanish) or to "break" a diphthong (_*ai*re, r*aï*m ->_ *ai*-re, r*a*-*ï*m).


That's the reason we too call it «διαλυτικά» (i.e. dissolvents), because when use it, it "dissolves" the diphthong; e.g «αι»--> /e/, «αϊ»--> /ai/, «οι»--> /i/, «οϊ»--> /oi/ etc


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## berndf

Favara said:


> In Catalan, we call the "two dots" _dièresi_. So, an Ü would be _U amb dièresi_.
> In our language we only use Ü and Ï, to show that the U in güe/güi/qüe/qüi is pronounced (like in spanish) or to "break" a diphthong (_*ai*re, r*aï*m ->_ *ai*-re, r*a*-*ï*m).


Those are tremas, not umlauts. Tremas and umlauts look the same but are quite different things (see explanation in #14).


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## Favara

Oh, I see... We don't have any umlauts, then.


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## djmc

At one time German was normally printed with a Gothic typeface. When German words were used in English or French or adapted into Latin the umlaut was normally spelled without the umlaut but using an e after the vowel thus Haendel, fuess, Moench etcetera.


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## berndf

djmc said:


> At one time German was normally printed with a Gothic typeface. When German words were used in English or French or adapted into Latin the umlaut was normally spelled without the umlaut but using an e after the vowel thus Haendel, fuess, Moench etcetera.


This convention still exists in German in places where umlauts cannot be used for technical reasons, e.g. the web site of the Austrian federal railways "Öbb" is "www.oebb.at".


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## AutumnOwl

*Swedish:* as the letters "ä" and "ö" (as well as "å") exists in Swedish we don't have any special words for them. When it comes to "ü" we say "tyskt y" (German y) and for "ß" either "tyskt s" or "dubbel-s" (double s).


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## L'irlandais

berndf said:


> This convention still exists in German in places where umlauts cannot be used for technical reasons, e.g. the web site of the Austrian federal railways "Öbb" is "www.oebb.at".


Hello,
Sorry if this is "hors sujet", but didn't a recent spelling revision in Germany do away with the umlauts (amongst other things.).
By which I mean, in Germany should this not be written as "Oebb" in any case, or is this simply a misunderstanding on my part?


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## AutumnOwl

L'irlandais said:


> Hello,
> Sorry if this is "hors sujet", but didn't a recent spelling revision in Germany do away with the umlauts (amongst other things.).
> By which I mean, in Germany should this not be written as "Oebb" in any case, or is this simply a misunderstanding on my part?


As far as I know the German spelling reform doesn't involve the letters "ü", "ä" and "ö", just "ß", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1996 , so Austria is still spelled as Österreich in German and not Oesterreich.


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## berndf

AutumnOwl said:


> As far as I know the German spelling reform doesn't involve the letters "ü", "ä" and "ö", just "ß", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_orthography_reform_of_1996 , so Austria is still spelled as Österreich in German and not Oesterreich.


That is correct. The reform did not abolish or add any letters. Only the rules when to use "ss" and when to use "ß" have slightly changed.

In Switzerland, the "ß" and has been abolished for practical reasons: Swiss keyboards need characters to write German, French and Italian and don't have space for ß. For the same reason, upper case Umlauts Ä, Ö and Ü are often replaced by Ae, Oe and Ue: if I type Shift+ü on my Swiss keyboard I don't get Ü but è.

But in Austria and Germany Ä, Ö, Ü, ä, ö, ü and ß are all in use.


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## Akitlosz

Die ungarische Sprache hat *ö* und *ü* auch, und noch einige Buchstaben ( í, ő, ű, ú, ó, é, á, ) mit Umlaut. Wir nennen die Buchstabe mit Umlaut *ékezetes betű*, (phonetisch ehkesetesch betü) auch die deutschen Buchstaben.
Umlaut = ékezet, Buchstabe = betű.

*ß* heißt in ungarisch *sárfesz sz*, das ist in deutsch *scharfes* *s*.
Sowas wie "eszett" sagen wir nicht. ß ist scharfes s bei uns.


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## berndf

Akitlosz said:


> Sowas wie "eszett" sagen wir nicht. ß ist scharfes s bei uns.


Das verwundert mich nicht. Ihr werdet die Bezeichnungen ja sicher aus dem österreichischen und nicht aus dem deutschen Deutsch übernommen haben.


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## Akitlosz

Wahrscheinlich. Die deutschen Wörter kommen durch Österreich nach Ungarn an. 

Ich weiß aber nicht, wie die Verbreitung der Wörter eszett und scharfes s im deutschen Sprachgebiet ist.
Die genaue Ursache kenne ich nicht, aber ß wird als scharfes s in Ungarn unterrichtet.


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## berndf

Akitlosz said:


> Ich weiß aber nicht, wie die Verbreitung der Wörter eszett und scharfes s im deutschen Sprachgebiet ist.


Die Bezeichnung "eszett" ist in Österreich ungebräuchlich.


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## L'irlandais

berndf said:


> ...In Switzerland, the "ß" and has been abolished for practical reasons: Swiss keyboards need characters to write German, French and Italian and don't have space for ß. For the same reason, upper case Umlauts Ä, Ö and Ü are often replaced by Ae, Oe and Ue: if I type Shift+ü on my Swiss keyboard I don't get Ü but è...


Alles klar,
It is funny you should mention that, as my confusion certainly comes from the Swytzerdeutsch usage, on the Basel side of things.


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