# t change to d in names?



## FlyingBird

Murat'ın or Murad'ın
Aykut'un or Ayhud'un

not sure if t change to d when its with names.

Also Burak, should it be Burak'ın or Burağ'ın

şimdiden teşekkür ederim


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## Rallino

T in _Murat_ and _Aykut_ doesn't change.
Burak becomes Burak'ın written language, but we pronounce it _B__urağın_.

Some names are weirder.

_Ufuk_, if used in the sense of _the horizon_, loses the u in the accusative and dative → _ufku görüyor musun? / ufka bak._ etc.
But it _Ufuk_ is someone's name, then the u doesn't drop, but in speech the k softens → _Ufuk'u (ufuğu) tanımıyorum.
_
_Umut_, if used in the sense of _hope_, prolongs the second u and softens the t into d → _umudum (umuudum) kalmadı_.
But if _Umut_ is someone's name, none of these changes occur: → _Umut'u gördün mü?_


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## FlyingBird

Rallino said:


> T in _Murat_ and _Aykut_ doesn't change.
> Burak becomes Burak'ınin written language, but we pronounce it _B__urağın_.
> 
> Some names are weirder.
> 
> _Ufuk_, if used in the sense of _the horizon_, loses the u in the accusative and dative → _ufku görüyor musun? / ufka bak._ etc.
> But it _Ufuk_ is someone's name, then the u doesn't drop, but in speech the k softens → _Ufuk'u (ufuğu) tanımıyorum.
> _
> _Umut_, if used in the sense of _hope_, prolongs the second u and softens the t into d → _umudum (umuudum) kalmadı_.
> But if _Umut_ is someone's name, none of these changes occur: → _Umut'u gördün mü?_


thank you rallino 
But i don't get why 'Burak'ın*in*' cause you already put ın, so why ın*in*?

or that's just mistake in writting


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## Rallino

Ah, that was a typo. I've corrected it.


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## themadprogramer

This is actually I very complicated subject. It's not just t and d's.
It's a whole bunch of letters. I'm unable to explain why exactly this happens but over time the general pronunciation of certain letters at the end of syllables (such as d,g/ğ) tend to become harder consonants (t,k).

Turkish is not the only language experiencing this phenomena, however it's probably one of the very few languages that has adopted a writing system that "tries"(albeit not very well) to adapt to these changes.

This isn't the same thing as consonant softening or hardening, it appears in regular words.
That's why we write "Git" and "Gidelim" instead of the expected "Gitelim". Because the original word was actually "Gid". When we attach the last letter to the next syllable it'll end up becoming an initial letter, and thus maintain it's true form.

The reason I said "tries" in quotation is because it's not very consistent. Certain accents don't have this quirky pronunciation thing. I wish we had a similar system for this as Korean does. They use a special letter for both of these consonant pairs (again d,t is one of them). So when a word ends in a true "T" it's clear, and when it's a pseudo "T" they write it as a "D". And this doesn't cause much confusion because of the way Korean handles syllables. People can see quite clearly if the consonant is at the end of the syllable or not and this way depending on whatever their accent is, they may choose to pronounce it as a "t" or "d".

Though this is but the tip of the iceberg. Turkish Romanization is a story for another time.


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## Rallino

Ahmet Akkoç said:


> This isn't the same thing as consonant softening or hardening, it appears in regular words.
> That's why we write "Git" and "Gidelim" instead of the expected "Gitelim". Because the original word was actually "Gid". When we attach the last letter to the next syllable it'll end up becoming an initial letter, and thus maintain it's true form.


Do you have any source to support that? As far as I know, _gitmek_ was always spelt with a t. Even in the Ottoman era: گیتمك


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## themadprogramer

Hold it!
I'm pretty sure it's gidmek but I can't find any source at the time being . Oh well 

A more relevant and irrefutable example would be the "-p" suffix which was originally "-b".

But no worry Rallino I'll get back to you shortly (P.S. Do you have any good sources for websites that document 1800s texts, not necessarily Ottoman but I'd like it if you could let me know )


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## Rallino

Nişanyan shows the etymology of _gitmek _as _kēt-_, so I, too, am pretty sure! 



> A more relevant and irrefutable example would be the "-p" suffix which was originally "-b".


There, are you talking about words like _kitap_/_kitab, cevap/cevap_? If so, these are from Arabic, so that makes sense. 
I don't think it's just a modern Turkish thing. I believe that, in the late Ottoman Era (1750 and onward), the final _d_'s_ b_'s were devoiced as well, hence the Romanization in _t_ and _p_.

_Gitmek_, on the other hand, is a verb, and the verbs in Turkish are all Turkic: there are no loan verbs. So I don't think _gitmek_ could really be *_gid_ at some point.



> But no worry Rallino I'll get back to you shortly (P.S. Do you have any good sources for websites that document 1800s texts, not necessarily Ottoman but I'd like it if you could let me know )


I haven't really searched the web for Ottoman texts. I have a dozen of books at my disposal at home, and that's about it.


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## themadprogramer

NO I said the suffix as in "Bunu edi*p* ne yapacaksın?" Which was indeed a "b".
WHICH FYI Is a Turkic particle.


Unfortunately there are some very very ancient exceptions to your claim regarding how there aren't any non-Turkic verbs in Turkish. (As in without -lemek or etmek)

However I think I remember one off the top of my head. "*Dinle*mek". Here you would assume "Din" was once a verb and it merely took the "-lemek" suffix. But surprise *insert confetti here*! If I'm not mistaken it's derived from the Chinese "tingle" (Not tingle like that Zelda character  pronounced as "Ti(nasal n) - l(chinese e, similar to ı pronounced by Bulgarians)". 

Gitmek might not have been the best example I could give  I will admit. HOWEVER This is an exmaple of the exact opposite. A word which originated with an initial "k" softened to a "g". Although for these words, pretty much everyone (except for maybe immigrants from other Turkic countries) pronounces it this way so it's not that much of a big deal.


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