# All Slavic Languages: Бог becomes Благо- in compounds?



## Dunav

Hello.

Does anyone know why *бог *becomes *благо-* when used adjectivally or in certain compounds? 

For example: *благодаря , благословение, благой (a name), благовешчение, благороден, *etc. 

Was the *л* lost at some point, or did it merge with the *о* to make an *а *somehow? 

Thanks!


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## TriglavNationalPark

I don't believe the two are related. Snoj's _Slovenski etimološki slovar_ states that *blago* simply meant "good" in Old Slavic, so *blagosloviti* is probably a literal translation of the Latin *bene dicere* (= to talk well).

*Bog*, on the other hand, has direct Indo-European origins. Snoj mentions *bhaga* in Old Indian, referring to a god who "gives out shares" (hands out fate), which is derived from the Indo-European root *bhag* (= to divide shares, to give out, to distribute).


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## osemnais

afaik бог is connected with багра. The explanation is that багра originally meant red and the sun is a god in nearly all early people's mythology. Upon dawn and dusk the sun colours the lower part of the sky in red.


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## Christo Tamarin

TriglavNationalPark said:


> I don't believe the two are related. Snoj's _Slovenski etimološki slovar_ states that *blago* simply meant "good" in Old Slavic, so *blagosloviti* is probably a literal translation of the Latin *bene dicere* (= to talk well).


Most probably, there was direct translation from Greek: ευ- => благо-.

ευχαριστώ, ευλογία, ευαγγελισμός, ευγενής => благодаря, благословение, благовещение, благороден.

Note that there is no reference to God in the Greek words.

On the other hand, we have Θεο- => Бого-:

Θεοτόκος, θεολογία, Θεοφάνεια => Богородица, богословие, Богоявление.


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## Angelo di fuoco

osemnais said:


> afaik бог is connected with багра. The explanation is that багра originally meant red and the sun is a god in nearly all early people's mythology. Upon dawn and dusk the sun colours the lower part of the sky in red.


Багровый, багряный, багрянец (colour) - in Russian it's still so, but mostly (not exclusively) in relation with blood or, sometimes, noble birth.
"Не засмеяться ль нам, пока
Не обагрилася рука"

"Why don't we laugh, as long as
the hand isn't red [with blood yet]?"

- Tchaikovsky's "Eugene Onegin" - don't know if Pushkin has those lines as well.


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## Sobakus

osemnais said:


> afaik бог is connected with багра. The explanation is that багра originally meant red and the sun is a god in nearly all early people's mythology. Upon dawn and dusk the sun colours the lower part of the sky in red.


This is highly unlikely for phonetic reasons.


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## osemnais

Sobakus said:


> This is highly unlikely for phonetic reasons.


Why would it be? If you are talking about the change a - o, when the deletion of long vowels and diphthongs took place, short a became o and long a became a.


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## ahvalj

osemnais said:


> afaik бог is connected with багра. The explanation is that багра originally meant red and the sun is a god in nearly all early people's mythology. Upon dawn and dusk the sun colours the lower part of the sky in red.


First of all, "bhagah" in the same sense exists in Iranian, and judging from both Indo-Iranian and Slavic it originally meant something like "richness" («богатъ», «оубогъ», «Даждьбогъ»). Second, the word «багръ» itself has neither good etymology nor any extended set of derived forms and is documented almost only in the South Slavic.


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## ahvalj

Christo Tamarin said:


> Most probably, there was direct translation from Greek: ευ- => благо-.
> 
> ευχαριστώ, ευλογία, ευαγγελισμός, ευγενής => благодаря, благословение, благовещение, благороден.
> 
> Note that there is no reference to God in the Greek words.
> 
> On the other hand, we have Θεο- => Бого-:
> 
> Θεοτόκος, θεολογία, Θεοφάνεια => Богородица, богословие, Богоявление.



Agree.


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## ahvalj

«Этимологический словарь славянских языков», редактор О. Н. Трубачёв:
http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1421275


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## osemnais

ahvalj said:


> First of all, "bhagah" in the same sense exists in Iranian, and judging from both Indo-Iranian and Slavic it originally meant something like "richness" («богатъ», «оубогъ», «Даждьбогъ»).


 багра may have been derived from бог after it changed its meaning



ahvalj said:


> Second, the word «багръ» itself has neither good etymology nor any  extended set of derived forms and is documented almost only in the South  Slavic.


here's one good etymology:


> The explanation is that багра originally meant red and the sun is a god  in nearly all early people's mythology. Upon dawn and dusk the sun  colours the lower part of the sky in red.


do you know better one?


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## ahvalj

osemnais said:


> багра may have been derived from бог after it changed its meaning
> here's one good etymology:
> do you know better one?



The Southern Slavic «багръ» meant red, indeed, but to link it to "god" through the chain "god" > "sun" > "some color the sun may occasionally have" > "red" we need some clear evidence of these intermediate stages. Plus, this "a" means that the vowel lengthened there a long time ago, since there is no such derivation pattern in the Slavic of the last thousand years, and this in its turn means that the shift "richness" > "god" should have been even older. Everything is possible, in principle, but without documented examples it is just a speculation like million others.


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## osemnais

ahvalj said:


> Plus, this "a" means that the vowel lengthened there a long time ago, since there is no such derivation pattern in the Slavic of the last thousand years


it dates back from the time when protoindoeuropean was spoken, to be exact - ablaut is not uncommon in Slavic languages. Two of the forms of the ablaut were long and short o, which later changed to long and short a, respectively. For the rest of the part you are right, Im curious to see what other possible explanations there are


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## ahvalj

osemnais said:


> it dates back from the time when protoindoeuropean was spoken, to be exact - ablaut is not uncommon in Slavic languages. Two of the forms of the ablaut were long and short o, which later changed to long and short a, respectively.


Yes, perfectly, but there are no traces of this word in any other language outside the South Slavic. If "bhog-" was an active root with ablaut and extensions, where are other examples?


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## Duya

Erm, and which South Slavic do you refer to? Over here in BCS, the word _bagra _is virtually unknown in the meaning of "red". According to HJP, it does have a descendant _bagrem_ 'Locust tree', and it does record _bagra_ (which was totally unknown to me until I read this thread) in the meaning 'red, purple color'. HJP links it to the Proto-Slavic and Old Slavic _bagrъ_, Greek _phṓgein_ 'to bake' being just a cognate.

On the other hand, OED's entry for "bake" links it all the way to PIE: 



> from PIE *bheg- "to warm, roast, bake" (cf. Gk. phogein "to roast"), from base *bhe- "to warm" (see bath).



...and indeed, we have common Slavic cognates *_реktь_ (to bake)_, _and from it past participle _pek'l_, which gave BCS _pakao_, Slovak _peklo_, meaning 'Hell'...

...which means that _bagra_ is related with the Devil, and not with God.


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## ahvalj

Duya said:


> Erm, and which South Slavic do you refer to?


I had checked the etymological dictionary referenced in the comment #10. It cites the Old Slavonic «багъръ», Bulgarian «багър», Old Serbian "bagar", SC "bagar" and "bagra", Slovenian "bager", and with reservations the Belorussian «багра» and the west Ukrainian «багрий». The Greek "phogein" is discussed there among others. The conclusion is: «считать данное название красного цвета и краски (т. е. типичное культурное слово) особо древним и.-е. реликтом как будто нет веских оснований. Очагом распространения красного красителя было древнее восточное Средиземноморье, поэтому мысль о заимствовании *bag(ъ)rъ I балканскими славянами не может быть пока снята с повестки дня».


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