# Who, whom, with whom, for whom



## gothicpartner

Hello,

Could you confirm for me if these sentences are synonymous,  I was taught that whom and who can be omitted keeping the meaning. Also, which of them are the most commonly spoken.

The girl with whom I danced 
The girl who/whom I danced  with
The girl I danced with

The girl for whom I bought the flowers yesterday. 
The girl who/whom I bought the flowers for yesterday
The girl I bought the flowers for yesterday.

Thanks in advance
Regards


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## gringuitoloco

The first sentence in each example is grammatically correct.
The second is the most common, though some may argue not grammatically correct, as you are ending a sentence with a preposition. Also, note that "who" is much more common, and definitely incorrect, whereas whom is very uncommon, yet the correct choice. (You need an object pronoun, not a subject pronoun, for your preposition: with/for.)
The third sentences are equal in meaning to the first two, used frequently, yet not grammatically sound, as there is no object for your preposition. (You could argue that it is understood, but I would think most grammarians would think that that is unacceptable.)

Hope that answers your questions. =)

Also, I would go with the second, using "whom," if you want to use the most common way, while still keeping the sentence grammatically correct...


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## inib

Just another opinion (not meant to contradict anyone else's): Personally, I frequently use and consider acceptable in informal situations sentences of your third type (omitting the pronoun and with the preposition at the end). Normally I try to be careful with my grammar, but to me, this usage seems to be a reality of modern-day speech.
I don't think you'll find unanimity in the answers to your question.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, grin.

Strange that you should say "_...as there is no object for your preposition ..._".
Isn't "the girl" the object of the preposition?

Best.  

GS


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## donbill

inib said:


> I don't think you'll find unanimity in the answers to your question.



You certainly will not find unanimity! I am quite sure that the third sentence in each of the sequences you posted is the one you'd hear most in conversation. It's certainly the one I'd use. If I were writing something that needed to be 'correct', I'd use the first of each sequence.


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## FromPA

The only option that would sound strange to me would be to follow the preposition with "who."

With whom I danced - grammatically correct, but seldom used.
Who I danced with - technically incorrect, but the most common usage.
With who I danced - bad choice. It sounds inept (to me) - like an attempt to be grammatically correct by leading with the preposition, but then failing to use the correct case for the pronoun.


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## gringuitoloco

@Giorgio, no. The girl would be the subject.Like I said, you could argue that it is understood to be the girl, but it isn't stated.


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## inib

FromPA said:


> The only option that would sound strange to me would be to follow the preposition with "who."
> 
> With who I danced - bad choice. It sounds inept (to me) - like an attempt to be grammatically correct by leading with the preposition, but then failing to use the correct case for the pronoun.


Exactly. That's just what I thought (but didn't dare to say without hearing other opinions). It's like not daring to be black or white, and ending up a rather smudgy grey!


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## inib

gringuitoloco said:


> @Giorgio, no. The girl would be the subject.Like I said, you could argue that it is understood to be the girl, but it isn't stated.


I understand that *the girl* (well, more exactly _who/whom_, but they refer to the girl) is object of the preposition within the subordinate relative clause, but she could well be subject of the main clause: The girl (who I danced with/with whom I danced) was very pretty.


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## ivb8921

Are you all telling me that "The girl whom I danced with is...." or "The girl whom I bought the flowers for yesterday..." are correct?

If that´s so you are really shattering my precomceptions!


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## inib

ivb8921 said:


> Are you all telling me that "The girl whom I danced with is...." or "The girl whom I bought the flowers for yesterday..." are correct?
> 
> If that´s so you are really shattering my precomceptions!


I wouldn't dare to say INCORRECT, but preferentially I would choose totally formal  (with whom I danced) or totally informal (...I danced with), and I would strongly reject the "mixtures" _with who I danced_ and _whom I danced with_.


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## Monstarika

How about "The girl that I bought the flowers for" or "that I danced with"... where would these fall?


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## ivb8921

Ok. That´s what I thought.

Thanks


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## ivb8921

Monstarika said:


> How about "The girl that I bought the flowers for" or "that I danced with"... where would these fall?



I really think those two are perfectly alright.


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## k-in-sc

"Whom" is too formal for most everyday conversation and putting the preposition at the end of a phrase is informal. That's why "the girl whom I danced with" sounds odd.


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## k-in-sc

ivb8921 said:


> I really think those two are perfectly alright.


*(all right)*
They sound fine without the "that."


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## inib

Monstarika said:


> How about "The girl that I bought the flowers for" or "that I danced with"... where would these fall?


I agree with Ivb. It's just another option. Perfectly correct, not contradictory (in my own usage), but perhaps slightly less common than the omission of the pronoun.


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## inib

k-in-sc said:


> *(all right)*
> They sound fine without the "that."


I know I'll be told off for going off-topic, but I couldn't resist looking this up. It seems that "alright" is not fully accepted, but it is widely used and contemplated as a viable possibility:
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/alright


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## ivb8921

k-in-sc said:


> *(all right)*
> They sound fine without the "that."



I thought it could be written both ways and that my choice was more common precisely in The States from where you are.

Concise Oxford Spanish Dictionary © 2009 Oxford University Press:
*alright* /ɔːlˈraɪt/ _adj/adv/interj_ _See Also_→ *all right*


Diccionario Espasa Concise © 2000 Espasa Calpe:*alright* [ɔ*:*l'raɪt] _US adj_ & _adverbio Ÿ *all right*_


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## FromPA

inib said:


> I wouldn't dare to say INCORRECT, but preferentially I would choose totally formal  (with whom I danced) or totally informal (...I danced with), and I would strongly reject the "mixtures" _with who I danced_ and _whom I danced with_.



"The girl whom I danced with" is grammatically correct.  The only possible objection would be with ending the phrase with a preposition, which most people do not see as a grammatical error, although in formal writing I would never do it.


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## Giorgio Spizzi

Hullo, grin.

So in "The girl I danced with" the girl would be the subject. Of _what_, if I may ask.

A- Who's Isadora?
B- The girl I danced with all night

Best.

GS


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## k-in-sc

"The girl" is the object of the preposition "with."
"Alright" is a nonstandard spelling of "all right." If you'll notice, it's never used in print media (except by mistake).  It's more like chatspeak.


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## gringuitoloco

In a regular sentence, the girl would be the subject. The examples are not full sentences, but rather fragments. If you were to use that phrase, you would need to finish the sentence. In your example:
Who's Isadora?
(Isadora is) the girl I danced with. 
This only works if the fragment is used as part of an _answer_.

If you were to start a sentence with it:
The girl I danced with is very pretty.
The girl is the subject, is is the verb, with is the preposition, and "whom" is an unstated, assumed prepositional object. But a prepositional object cannot also be the subject. If that were true, a sentence like "A jar of pickles is heavy," would be "A jar of pickles are heavy." There needs to be a distinction between subjects and propositional objects.

Like I said before, it could be argued that "whom" is the _understood__ object,_ but either way, it is used in everyday speech.

To the OP, I'll try to sum up my earlier posts by saying this:
All the examples are "correct", if you use "whom" in your second example. Some people may favor one over the others, but you can't please everyone. Therefore, it doesn't matter which you choose. 

=)


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## inib

gringuitoloco said:


> In a regular sentence, the girl would be the subject. The examples are not full sentences, but rather fragments. If you were to use that phrase, you would need to finish the sentence. In your example:
> Who's Isadora?
> (Isadora is) the girl I danced with.
> This only works if the fragment is used as part of an _answer_.
> 
> If you were to start a sentence with it:
> The girl I danced with is very pretty.
> 
> 
> =)


Gringuito, 
I think it has been said many times now. _*The girl*_ is the object (in this case of the preposition "with", not a direct object of a verb) WITHIN THE RELATIVE CLAUSE. That doesn't mean that it can't be the subject of the main clause. In fact, I can't think of an example where it wouldn't be the subject of the main clause, seeing as it is an affirmative sentence and it is at the beginning. 
I think we are talking at cross-purposes and making a big issue of terminology, but if some of us would accept/prefer the omission of the relative pronoun, it's precisely because it serves as the OBJECT.


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## FromPA

I agree with Inib. You need a complete sentence to say which part of speech "the girl" represents, but with respect to the relative phrase, my interpretation is that "the girl" is the antecedent of the relative pronoun "whom" which is the object of the preposition "with."   In this case, the relative pronoun has been omitted, but it is still understood.


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## Mexico RV'er

Monstarika said:


> How about "The girl that I bought the flowers for" or "that I danced with"... where would these fall?



Although you will hear "*that"* used frequently, the preferred form is *"whom."  "That" *should be reserved for objects, and *"whom"* should be used with people.


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