# Romance languages - "to mean" as "to want to say"



## Testing1234567

I have noticed this phenomenon in quite a few Romance languages, that the verb "to mean" can also be conveyed by the phrase "to want to say", regardless of the origin of the verb "to want".

For example:

(Language): (verb meaning "to mean") | (phrase meaning "to want to say")
French: signifier | vouloir dire
Spanish: significar | querer decir
Portuguese: significar | querer dizer
Catalan: significar | voler dir
As shown above, "querer" comes from the Latin verb "QVAERERE" while "vouloir" comes from the Latin verb "VELLE".

Am I correct to deduce then, that this phenomenon does not have a Latin origin?

Replies stating more cognates are also welcome.


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## Sardokan1.0

It looks like a phenomenon present in every Romance language


*Italian* : significare | voler dire
*northern Sardinian* : significare (rarely used) | quérrer narrare/nàrrere
*southern Sardinian* : significai (in origin "significari") | bòllir nài (in origin "nàrriri")
example :

*Italian :* che significa / vuol dire quella parola? (what's the meaning of that word?)
*northern Sardinian :* ite quéret nàrrere cussa paràula?
*southern Sardinian :* ita bòlit nài cussu fueddu?


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## Testing1234567

Sardokan1.0 said:


> It looks like a phenomenon present in every Romance language
> 
> 
> *Italian* : significare | voler dire
> *northern Sardinian* : significare (rarely used) | quérrer narrare/nàrrere
> *southern Sardinian* : significai (in origin "significari") | bòllir nài (in origin "nàrriri")
> example :
> 
> *Italian :* che significa / vuol dire quella parola? (what's the meaning of that word?)
> *northern Sardinian :* ite quéret nàrrere cussa paràula?
> *southern Sardinian :* ita bòlit nài cussu fueddu?



Thank you for your examples.

Therefore, we have covered Iberian, Occitano-, Gallo-, and Italo-Dalmatian.

Some examples from Rhaeto- (Romansh, Ladin, Friulian) or Gallo-Italic (Piedmontese, Ligurian, Lombard, Emilian-Romagnol) or Eastern Romance (Daco-Romanian, Istro-Romanian, Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian) would be great.


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## Youngfun

This is interesting because when I was a child, my Chinese had interferences from Italian, and so instead of saying "X的意思是Y" I said "X就是说Y"。
Maybe you could understand this "wants to say" as “X想表达的意思是Y”。


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## apmoy70

We say it in Greek too, it's a colloquialism, in fact it's used in conversational Koine as *«θέλω εἰπεῖν» tʰélō ei̯peîn* --> _I want to say_ (the construction is "I want" + infinitive of *«εἴπω»* = "I mean") > Late Hellenistic Koine (as late as 3rd c. CE) *«θέλω ἵνα εἴπῳ» tʰélō hína eí̯pǭ* (the construction "I want" + periphrastic subjunctive is used alot by the Christian writer Origen of Alexandria whence scholars believe this costruction began in Hellenistic Egypt = "I mean") > MoGr *«θέλω να πω»* [ˈθelo na po] --> _I want to say_ (i.e. colloquial "I mean"). Is it possible that Koine influenced Vulgar Latin?


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## danielstan

(Daco-)Romanian: _a_ _însemna_ ("to mean") _| a vrea să zică _(expression) "to want to say"

Rom. _a însemna _has many meanings, the most used is "to mean" (< Lat._ insignare_). See: dexonline
It also means "to make a sign" by composition of 2 words: _în + semn.
_
Rom._ a vrea să zică _("to want to say") is an expression probably archaic, as I don't hear it usually.
One may say in Romanian (but I don't hear often such sentence):
- _Ce vrea să zică asta? _(equivalent to French_ Qu'est-ce que ça veut dire ?_)
This expression has been transformed in the conjuction_ vasăzică_ (not _vreasăzică!_) which means_ "by consequence", "thus".
P.S. _
Romanian _a vrea să zică_ has the verb _a zice_ in Subjunctive (_să zică)_, not in Infinitive (equivalent to the incorrect French expression _Il veut qu'il dise_).
This is a feature specific to Balkan languages which replaced the Infinitive by Subjunctive in most of their usage (see Balkan Sprachbund: Balkan sprachbund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
_
_


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## danielstan

apmoy70 said:


> Is it possible that Koine influenced Vulgar Latin?


We are on the ground of hypothesis, as is difficult to assess a Greek influence from Eastern to Western Romance languages for such expressions.

As I have read so far, for features that were not present in Classical Latin, but developed lately in (almost) all Romance languages, the 2 main languages taken as "first suspects" are (ancient) Greek and (ancient) German.
For example, the definite article developed in all Romance languages from Classical Latin _ille_ and attested in Vulgar Latin (Late Antiquity, _Peregrinatio Aetheriae_) is supposed to come from German, although I know Greek has an equivalent construction, but the Greek construction does not fit so well as German one on Latin _ille_.
I admit I don't know Greek, what I said above is from books I read.

So, for the expression in discussion one should investigate ancient Greek, ancient German, maybe ancient Gaul (if this language has enough written sources or enough surviving words in today's Gaelic dialects) etc. 
I let the debate for more knowledgeable people.


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## fdb

apmoy70 said:


> We say it in Greek too, it's a colloquialism, in fact it's used in conversational Koine as *«θέλω εἰπεῖν» tʰélō ei̯peîn* --> _I want to say_ (the construction is "I want" + infinitive of *«εἴπω»* = "I mean") > Late Hellenistic Koine (as late as 3rd c. CE) *«θέλω ἵνα εἴπῳ» tʰélō hína eí̯pǭ* (the construction "I want" + periphrastic subjunctive is used alot by the Christian writer Origen of Alexandria whence scholars believe this costruction began in Hellenistic Egypt = "I mean") > MoGr *«θέλω να πω»* [ˈθelo na po] --> _I want to say_ (i.e. colloquial "I mean"). Is it possible that Koine influenced Vulgar Latin?




I think there is a big difference, semantically, between “I want to say” = “I mean”, and “it wants to say” = “it means”. You can say the former not only in Greek, but also in English, and virtually any language. On the other hand, to say of a word that it “wants to say” something else is a statement that you can make in Romance languages, but not in very many others.


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## gburtonio

fdb said:


> I think there is a big difference, semantically, between “I want to say” = “I mean”, and “it wants to say” = “it means”. You can say the former not only in Greek, but also in English, and virtually any language. On the other hand, to say of a word that it “wants to say” something else is a statement that you can make in Romance languages, but not in very many others.



If I remember rightly, you can also say 'Τι θα πει' to express 'What does it mean?'. Literally, this means 'What *will* it say?' but the particle θα comes from the verb θέλω, meaning 'want', so if θα is interpreted along these lines, it's the same as the Romance forms.


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## apmoy70

fdb said:


> I think there is a big difference, semantically, between “I want to say” = “I mean”, and “it wants to say” = “it means”. You can say the former not only in Greek, but also in English, and virtually any language. On the other hand, to say of a word that it “wants to say” something else is a statement that you can make in Romance languages, but not in very many others.


Thank you professor, you're probably right


gburtonio said:


> If I remember rightly, you can also say 'Τι θα πει' to express 'What does it mean?'. Literally, this means 'What *will* it say?' but the particle θα comes from the verb θέλω, meaning 'want', so if θα is interpreted along these lines, it's the same as the Romance forms.


If I may jump in, you remember well and your interpretation of the Greek colloquialism is correct, the problem is that this construction is modern, less than 100 years old, so it definitely hasn't exercised any influenced over Romance languages


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## fdb

apmoy70 said:


> the problem is that this construction is modern, less than 100 years old, so it definitely hasn't exercised any influenced over Romance languages



More likely the other way round, don't you think?


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## apmoy70

fdb said:


> More likely the other way round, don't you think?


I havo no clue honestly, could be a Romance influence, it could also be natural evolution, the expression posted by @gburtonio evolved in parallel with *«τι πάει να πει;»* which is literally translated _what is it going to say?_ = what does it mean? (I don't think there's a Romance equivalent)


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## irinet

Hi,
"- _Ce vrea* să zică* asta? _(equivalent to French_ Qu'est-ce que ça veut dire ?_)"

1.I know of the usage of 'C_e vrea* să însemne* asta?' when the interlocutor needs more explanations of what has just been said.
_
2. '_Ceea ce vreau să zic e că...' _('what I want to say is that...') sounds more like a reinforcement of something that has been said before.
_
_


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## Youngfun

irinet said:


> Hi,
> "- _Ce vrea* să zică* asta? _(equivalent to French_ Qu'est-ce que ça veut dire ?_)"
> 
> 1.I know of the usage of 'C_e vrea* să însemne* asta?' when the interlocutor needs more explanations of what has just been said.
> _
> 2. '_Ceea ce vreau să zic e că...' _('what I want to say is that...') sounds more like a reinforcement of something that has been said before.


What's the difference between _semnifică_ and _inseamnă_?

Once I wrote: " 'All y'all' semnifică 'toți voi' " and a Romanian corrected it to _inseamnă_.


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## irinet

It's a synonym closer to '_symbolise_' or '_to signify_' rather than to the verb 'a însemna'. However, I think that the translation for both verbs in Romanian can also be 'to mean'. So you were not that wrong.


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## sotos

apmoy70 said:


> We say it in Greek too, it's a colloquialism, in fact it's used in conversational Koine as *«θέλω εἰπεῖν» tʰélō ei̯peîn* --> _I want to say_ ...


Yes, it happens in Greek, but the right word is "εννοώ" {"Ι mean" and "I want" (to say or to do)}. The connection is the literal meaning of "ennoO" as "I have in mind".


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