# Urdu: tataar تتار



## Koozagar

Hi All,
In the following Ghalib shair, the word tattaar is used. Which I can't find in my dictionary. Help shall be appreciated.

Jis jaa Naseem shaana kash-e-zulf-e-yaar hay
Naafa, dimaagh-e-ahooay dasht-e-tattaar hay


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## BP.

I think the word is _taataar_-تاتار, truncated by the poet into _tataar_-تتار. The whole thing is therefore _dasht e tataar_ -دشت تتار- _plains of the tatars_.

Edit: edit edited


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## Koozagar

you mean taataari? as in the race? interesting. Could very well be.


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## BP.

Yes I meant the same. It makes sense, since the musk deer's habitat is the steppes of central Asia/ Turkistaan/ Tataaristaan.


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## Koozagar

Thanks BP. It does make sense.


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## Cilquiestsuens

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I think the word is _taataar_-تاتار, truncated by the poet into _tataar_-تتار. The whole thing is therefore _dasht e tataar_ -دشت تتار- _plains of the tatars_.
> 
> Edit: could you please remove the tashdiid from the transliteration of word in the heading? The thread will be unsearchable otherwise if somebody's looking for tataar. Thanks.


 
Call me picky, but I happen to be reading a book on Tatars, and the way it is spelt in Arabic is the way Ghalib spelt it.... So it seems the two alternatives are possible *tataar* and *taataar*... (I actullay didn't know about the last one, with two long _a_'s before you mentioned it...)

More discussion here on the above verse.


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## BP.

Yes Arabic influence could be the reason for this spelling, apart obviously from the effort at aligning the _awzaan _of the lines. However, this spelling isn't the norm in Urdu, that is either _taataar_ or _taataarii_.


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Yes Arabic influence could be the reason for this spelling, apart obviously from the effort at aligning the _awzaan _of the lines.However, this spelling isn't the norm in Urdu, that is either _taataar_ or _taataarii_.


 BP, although we can't exclude the idea of Arabic influence, I think this has more to do with rhyme and meter - _awzaan _of the lines, as you say.

The first line ends as <_zulf-e-*yaar* hay>_. The second ends with_<__dasht-e-*tataar* hay__>_.

Here, <*tataar**>* gives a better rhyme with <*yaar**> *than would *taataar*. 

Yes! But poetic licence allows for this truncation.


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## Koozagar

I agree with Faylasoof. I think to fit it in the behar, Ghalib has chosen the Arabic tattaar instead of taataar.


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## Faylasoof

Koozagar said:


> I agree with Faylasoof. I think to fit it in the behar, Ghalib has chosen the Arabic tattaar instead of taataar.



Koozagar, what I actually meant was a little different! In fact, what I said was:



Faylasoof said:


> BP, although we can't exclude the idea of Arabic influence, I think this has more to do with rhyme and meter - _awzaan _of the lines, as you say.
> 
> The first line ends as <_zulf-e-*yaar* hay>_. The second ends with_<dasht-e-*tataar* hay>_.
> 
> Here, <*tataar>* gives a better rhyme with <*yaar> *than would *taataar*.
> ...


 I think the Arabic spelling is merely a coincident! Ghalib, or any other poet for that matter, would have used *tataar* instead of *taataar* to keep the rhyme.

 … and btw, it is pronounced *tataar* and not *tattaar*!


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## Koozagar

Thanks for correcting the pronunciation


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## SSK_Toronto

Could someone please explain the shair to me?


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## BP.

@12, now that would be quite a hard task.

The first verse _seems _fairly straightforward. It is descriptive of an image - _the place where the wind tugs on the shoulders of the beloved's tresses_. The second however, is open to interpretation. It says _the navel(musk gland) is/becomes the brain/mind of the musk deer_. Notice how I couldn't decide on several words in the translation. The keyword here is _dimaagh_, and unless somebody could decipher its contextual meaning, we can't proceed with the interpretation.


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## Cilquiestsuens

BelligerentPacifist said:


> @12, now that would be quite a hard task.
> 
> The first verse _seems _fairly straightforward. It is descriptive of an image - _the place where the wind tugs on the shoulders of the beloved's tresses_. The second however, is open to interpretation. It says _the navel(musk gland) is/becomes the brain/mind of the musk deer_. Notice how I couldn't decide on several words in the translation. The keyword here is _dimaagh_, and unless somebody could decipher its contextual meaning, we can't proceed with the interpretation.



In the link I give above in my post they explain that _*dimaagh*_ also means _*nose, sense of smell*_..... Only with this meaning implied the verse can make sense. Follow the link I suggested, you'll see it is worth a reading. I must confess I am totally unaware of this meaning of dimaagh...


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## Faylasoof

Actually, in _Farsi_there are two pronunciations of دماغ:
  _demaagh / dimaagh _= brain
  _damaagh_ =  nose =  بینی_ biinii_.

 Urdu poets of yesteryear, themselves well versed in Persian, used this duality of pronunciation (and consequently meaning) even in their Urdu verse as at the time most of their Urduphone readers too were familiar with this fact given that nearly all had received at least some instructions in Persian.  
 In common Urdu speech we really do not ever take the meaning of دماغ = _nose_, but this usage in Urdu poetry is something else.

I agree that we go to the link Ciqui gives above to understand the meaning of these lines. The explanations there are full and quite thorough.


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## Cilquiestsuens

Faylasoof said:


> Actually, in _Farsi_there are two pronunciations of دماغ:
> _demaagh / dimaagh _= brain
> _damaagh_ = nose = بینی_ biinii_.
> 
> Urdu poets of yesteryear, themselves well versed in Persian, used this duality of pronunciation (and consequently meaning) even in their Urdu verse as at the time most of their Urduphone readers too were familiar with this fact given that nearly all had received at least some instructions in Persian.
> In common Urdu speech we really do not ever take the meaning of دماغ = _nose_, but this usage in Urdu poetry is something else.
> 
> I agree that we go to the link Ciqui gives above to understand the meaning of these lines. The explanations there are full and quite thorough.


 
I see... I don't really understand how dimaagh came to mean nose / sense of smell in Farsi, because it seems that the meaning is totally absent from Arabic, from which the word dimaagh originated... Well, I have a doubt here... the word is not connected to any root by meaning in Arabic, I think relating it to the root dal - meem - ghain sounds a bit artificial... Is this a Farsi loan into Arabic???


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## Masjeen

cilquiestsuens said:


> i see... I don't really understand how dimaagh came to mean nose / sense of smell in farsi, because it seems that the meaning is totally absent from arabic, from which the word dimaagh originated... Well, i have a doubt here... The word is not connected to any root by meaning in arabic, i think relating it to the root dal - meem - ghain sounds a bit artificial... Is this a farsi loan into arabic???


 
*"بَلْ نَقْذِفُ* بِالْحَقِّ عَلَى *الْبَاطِلِ* فَيَدْمَغُه فَإِذَا هُوَ زَاهِقٌ"

الدماغ: حشو الرأس من أعصاب ونحوها.. د-م-غ


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## Koozagar

*Actually, in Farsi there  are two pronunciations of دماغ:
demaagh / dimaagh = brain
damaagh = nose = بینی biinii.* 

so it is the same word, but its just pronounced differently to mean 'nose'? or are they two different words?


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## Koozagar

Masjeen said:


> *"بَلْ نَقْذِفُ* بِالْحَقِّ عَلَى *الْبَاطِلِ* فَيَدْمَغُه فَإِذَا هُوَ زَاهِقٌ"
> 
> الدماغ: حشو الرأس من أعصاب ونحوها.. د-م-غ




so it is from Arabic?


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## Masjeen

Koozagar said:


> so it is from Arabic?


Was there any doubt?


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## Faylasoof

The Arabic origin of the word has never been in doubt (dal - meem - ghain root) and Masjeen has provided evidence for it. As to how the change of a vowel gave rise to the change of meaning is something I can’t answer but here is Hayyim: 

دماغ _(demagh)_ Noun _A_ 1. The brain. _Syn_. مخ & مغز || 2. The nose [in this sense pronounced _damagh_]. _Syn_. بینی || _Fig_. (a) Vanity, pride: (b) Strong inclination, penchant [Fr.]; also, talent or aptitude. Ex. دماغ این کار را ندارم I have no penchant or talent for that. _Syn_. شوق & تمایل (c) Disposition, condition; mood. _Syn_. حال

Same as what i say above;


Faylasoof said:


> Actually, in _Farsi_there are two pronunciations of دماغ:
> _d*e*maagh / d*i*maagh _= brain
> _d*a*maagh_ = nose = بینی_ biinii_.
> ....


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