# Pronunciation of "s" at end of word, next word begins with vowel



## wster

First question is for Portuguese in Portugal.

Portuguese friends swear that it is always pronounced like [sh].  (Sorry don't have phonetic alphabet at the moment.)  And many web sites agree.  But some web sites say that it should be pronounced like [z].  So for example, "os Estados Unidos" has how many [sh] sounds and how many [z] sounds?  Native portuguese all swear by four [sh] sounds.  But here's a web site that has a different rule: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/portuguese.htm  According to them in Portugual you should have two [sh] sounds and two [z] sounds.

Second question is a repeat for Portuguese in Brazil.  

It actually must be a hard question because many web sites try and avoid taking a position despite giving four rules for what seems like all other possible cases.

This has caused great trouble for me so please be patient.


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## Carfer

I agree with the site.


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## Guigo

For Brasil, the more common are:

_z-sh-z-sh_ or_ z-s-z-sh_

However, the series _z-s-z-s_ may appear in some places.


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## AlexSantos

I'm from Brazil, but I come from Rio, and here we also pronounce syllable final "s" as [sh] (commonly called "chiado") just like the Portuguese do. I would say there are 3 possible realizations of this sound depending on whether the following sound is voiced or voiceless or if it's followed by a vowel or a consonant.

"Os portugueses."
Here, "os" is pronounced [osh], because it's followed by a voiceless "p" sound.

"Os brasileiros."
Here, "os" is pronounced [ozh] (like the 's' in 'vision'), because it's followed by a voiced "b" sound.

"Os americanos."
Here, "os" is pronounced [oz] because it's followed by a vowel sound.


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## guihenning

Os Estados Unidos
 u_zshtádu_zunidush (Portugal, Rio)
Os Estados Unidos
u_zisstádu_zuniduss (most of Brazil)


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## wster

What then about the second person singular imperfect "eras"?  Does that ever have a [z] sound at the end?  My native Portuguese seemed to dislike that more even then the [z] in United States.  What are verbs any different?


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## AlexSantos

As I said, it depends on whether the following sound is voiced, voiceless, a vowel or a consonant. Both verbs and nouns follow the same rules regarding their pronunciation. If there isn't any other word after "eras" or if it's followed by a voiceless consonant, then the standard pronunciation would be a [sh] sound. If the following word starts with a vowel, then the "s" in "eras" takes a [z] sound. If the following word starts with a voiced consonant than it's a [zh] sound.


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## guihenning

They arent.

Tu eras
Tu érash

Tu eras amigo dele
Tu éraz_amigo dele

Tu eras confiável
Tu érash confiável

Tu eras a fim dele
Tu éraz_a fim dele

Tu eras mesmo linda
Tu éraj mêjmu linda


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## guihenning

I keep crossing with AlexSantos, but as he says there's no different rule for verbs, nouns or whatever. It has only to do with the letter that comes after the S, whether it's voiced or not.


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## wster

AlexSantos said:


> As I said, it depends on whether the following sound is voiced, voiceless, a vowel or a consonant. Both verbs and nouns follow the same rules regarding their pronunciation. If there isn't any other word after "eras" or if it's followed by a voiceless consonant, then the standard pronunciation would be a [sh] sound. If the following word starts with a vowel, then the "s" in "eras" takes a [z] sound. If the following word starts with a voiced consonant than it's a [zh] sound.



*I'm only interested in the case where the following word begins with a vowel.*

I've got three friends.  Two from Porto and one from Lisbon and they all really dislike [z] before a vowel beginning a new word.  Yes a [z] if the "s" is surrounded by vowels in the middle of a word.   But not at the end.  E.g., "Tu eras un..." They always want a [z] there.  

I also called up a tutor in Lisbon today and he said they always just teach a [sh] sound.  When I BEGGED him for any way one could use [z] and the most he would give me is maybe "some regional differences".  But he was basically not buying any [z] talk and I started to feel dumb for asking.

And for those of you who like a [z] sound, how do you EXPLAIN all these web sites that just go with [sh].  I'm reluctant to put up a bunch of links.  But if you want I can.


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## machadinho

Are you, and are they, able to properly distinguish between [ʃ] and [ʒ] at the end of a word? Maybe they refuse [z] but accept [ʒ].


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## guihenning

Well, then you need to choose if you want to go by their 'rules' or by the rules everybody here will tell you and the websites.
The 'rule' that a S followed by a vowel gives a Z sound is nothing but natural and occurs in every variant of Portuguese as well as in Italian and French. Maybe your friends don't even realize they make a Z sound or maybe they're just the exception of the rule, but I (and therefore many people here, if not all) will assure you that: vowel + s + vowel = [z] or —s + vowel = [z].


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## wster

Sorry,  typo, "They always want a [sh] there."


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## machadinho

What about [ʒ]? Tu eraʒ um amigo?


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## wster

machadinho said:


> Are you, and are they, able to properly distinguish between [ʃ] and [ʒ] at the end of a word? Maybe they refuse [z] but accept [ʒ].


  My sense is they would not accept [ʒ].


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## guihenning

wster said:


> My sense is they would not accept [ʒ].


Cray.


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## machadinho

wster said:


> My sense is they would not accept [ʒ].


So, if I understand you correctly, they accept [ʃ] but not [ʒ]. Honestly, are you sure you're able to make out how they differ at end of words?


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## AlexSantos

That's because this subtle change in the pronunciation of a given sound under very specific circumstances (which in Linguistics is called "sandhi") is not something usually taught to foreigners in classrooms unless the changes in pronunciation are really that noticeable and or counter-intuitive (the liaison in French comes to mind). Thus students are not expected to reproduce those sounds because they might distract you from other important skills. As a matter of fact, most native speakers and even teachers who are not familiar with Linguistics tend not to pay attention to these subtle differences in pronunciation and might not even be aware of their existence. If you pronounce every coda "s" as a [sh] most people won't even blink an eye.


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## guihenning

AlexSantos said:


> That's because this subtle change in the pronunciation of a given sound under very specific circumstances (which in Linguistics is called "sandhi") is not something usually taught to foreigners in classrooms unless the changes in pronunciation are really that noticeable and or counter-intuitive (the liaison in French comes to mind). Thus students are not expected to reproduce those sounds because they might distract you from other important skills. As a matter of fact, most native speakers and even teachers who are not familiar with Linguistics tend not to pay attention to these subtle differences in pronunciation and might not even be aware of their existence. If you pronounce every coda "s" as a [sh] most people won't even blink an eye.


Exato, bem lembrado. Já passei por isso quando tentava explicar a amigos que ao dizermos 'casa' há dois 'a's ali e custaram aceitar — e perceber — a diferença. É o tipo de coisa que é tão natural que as pessoas sequer se dão conta.


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## wster

My friends, and the fellow I called today, all are people who have never been to Brazil and are under the age of 40.  Hehe.  And they all insist on [sh].  I wouldn't normally count their opinions very highly but they do happen to all agree.  Unlike the internets:

Short Portuguese Lessons - Sounds and Pronounciation

Learn European Portuguese Pronunciation - Complete Guide

Portuguese language, alphabet and pronunciation

pronunciationguide.info: Portuguese

https://blog.udemy.com/portuguese-pronunciation/

Portuguese pronunciation


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## AlexSantos

guihenning said:


> Exato, bem lembrado. Já passei por isso quando tentava explicar a amigos que ao dizermos 'casa' há dois 'a's ali e custaram aceitar — e perceber — a diferença. É o tipo de coisa que é tão natural que as pessoas sequer se dão conta.



Acredito que seja justamente por isso que hispanofalantes tenham tanta dificuldade em entender o português falado. Para eles, esse segundo "a" simplesmente não existe e é um som totalmente alheio ao repertório fonético deles. Enquanto nós não conseguimos nos fazer entender porque nem mesmo notamos que são sons diferentes. 



wster said:


> My friends, and the fellow I called today, all are people who have never been to Brazil and are under the age of 40.  Hehe.  And they all insist on [sh].  I wouldn't normally count their opinions very highly but they do happen to all agree.  Unlike the internets:



Why don't you pay attention to their speech and see for yourself if they pronounce coda "s" as [sh] every single time?


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## Dymn

I think even I have noticed the phenomenon just by watching five minutes of RTP. Catalan also has it. Your friends aren't aware of it, even if they have pronounced it like that all their lives. It's the magic behind phonetical differences, they are very subtle, but when you get them wrong, natives immediately notice your foreign accent. I remember that in Spanish class years ago, many of my colleagues got flabbergasted when they were told the two consonants of _viva _had different pronunciation, yet they had always pronounced them differently.

Foreign-language teachers usually don't pay much attention to pronunciation, because it is thought it can confuse the students, and I think they are mostly right.


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## Tony100000

Well, if you want to go by the rules, go by the rules. If you want to go by the "regional rules", you can speak this way, the general regional pronunciation: *ch-*[ʃ] before voiceless consonants (*p, t, qu, f, s, ch e x*) and *j-*[Ʒ] before voiced consonants (*b*, *d*, *g*, *j*, *l*, *lh*, *m*, *n*, *nh*, *r*, *v*, *z*) and vowels.

Standard Pronunciation (in summary):

*s-*
1. at the beginning of a word (*salada*)

*ch-*[ʃ]
1. at the end of a syllable, before a voiceless consonant or at the end of a word, when the next word begins with a voiceless consonant (*pizas - pizach*, *pasta-pachta*, *pastas pretas - pachtach pretach*)

*z-*
1. between vowels or  at the end of a word, when the next word begins with a vowel (*casa - caza*, *olhos azuis - olhozazuich*)

*j-*[Ʒ]
1. closing a syllable, before a voiced consonant or at the end of a word, when the next word begins with a voiced consonant (*mesmo - mejmo*, *casas distantes - cazaj dichtantech*)


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