# בבלי, מבלי



## Isidore Demsky

Does בבלי  mean Babylonian in the following context?

כל מה שרצית לדעת על _*ניקוד בבלי*_: הניקוד הבָּבְלִי הוא שיטה גרפית לסימון ההגייה של המקרא, המשנה, התלמוד והתרגום הארמי שפותחה בידי יהודי בבל בראשית ימי

Would "Babylonian pointing" be the proper translation of the phrase ניקוד בבלי ?

And can בבלי also (in other contexts, in modern or Biblical Hebrew) mean "no," "not," or "without"?


----------



## origumi

Isidore Demsky said:


> Does בבלי  mean Babylonian in the following context?


Yes.



> Would "Babylonian pointing" be the proper translation of the phrase ניקוד בבלי ?


Possibly, yet there are other alternatives.



> And can בבלי also (in other contexts, in modern or Biblical Hebrew) mean "no," "not," or "without"?


Yes.


----------



## Isidore Demsky

Thank you.

In what context might בבלי  mean "not," or "without"?

I'm aware of a biblical passage (Deut. 4:42) where it seems to mean "unawares," or "without knowledge."

דברים 4:42 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
לנס שמה רוצח אשר ירצח את־רעהו בבלי־דעת והוא לא־שנא לו מתמול שלשום ונס אל־אחת מן־הערים האל וחי׃

But in that particular example, wouldn't the first ב (somehow) indicate "knowledge," and the בלי  indicate "without"?


----------



## anipo

Isidore Demsky said:


> Thank you.
> 
> In what context might בבלי  mean "not," or "without"?



I only know בלי and מבלי in that context. Never heard of בבלי with a meaning other than Babylonian, as in תלמוד בבלי or even שיכון בבלית, a neighborhood in Tel Aviv.


----------



## Isidore Demsky

So


anipo said:


> I only know בלי and מבלי in that context. Never heard of בבלי with a meaning other than Babylonian, as in תלמוד בבלי or even שיכון בבלית, a neighborhood in Tel Aviv.


So you've never seen בבלי  mean "not," or "without"?


----------



## anipo

As I said, no, I haven't.


----------



## origumi

These two בבלי have nothing to do with each other, the similarity (when written) is completely incidental.

בבלי = _without_ is not used in modern Hebrew.


----------



## Isidore Demsky

origumi said:


> These two בבלי have nothing to do with each other, the similarity (when written) is completely incidental.
> 
> בבלי = _without_ is not used in modern Hebrew.


And does בבלי ever mean "without" in ancient Hebrew?

I understand בלי does, but בבלי seems to mean "without knowledge" (or "unawares"), and I take it the additional ב somehow adds the idea of knowledge?


----------



## origumi

Isidore Demsky said:


> בבלי seems to mean "without knowledge" (or "unawares")


What makes you think so?


----------



## Isidore Demsky

origumi said:


> What makes you think so?


That's how it's usually translated in Deut. 4:42.

לנס שמה רוצח אשר ירצח את־רעהו *בבלי*־דעת והוא לא־שנא לו מתמול שלשום ונס אל־אחת מן־הערים האל וחי׃

Does the additional *ב* add the idea of knowledge to "without" (*בלי*), making *בבלי* equal "without knowledge"?


----------



## origumi

בבלי / בלי means "without". "Knowing" is the next word.


----------



## utopia

Nikkud is "punctuation" or "vocalization". So Babylonian puncuation seems to be a right translation.

As for the meaning: בַּבְלִי vs. בִּבְלִי

BAVLI vs. BIVLI

ב+בלי vs. בבל+י


----------



## Drink

בלי דעת means "without knowledge" and is an adjectival phrase expressing a state (although it can sometimes be used, especially today, as an adverbial phrase). Adding the preposition ב- turns it into an adverbial phrase (with the meaning of being in that state) and relates it to the verb of the clause (ירצח).


----------



## Isidore Demsky

Thank you.


----------



## Isidore Demsky

In ancient Hebrew, some contexts, could בבלי be translated "not"?

In the Torah, it used in passages relating to unpremeditated manslaughter, but what would be a literal translation of this one word?


----------



## Drink

For example, אשר ירצח את רעהו *בבלי דעת* means "who kills his fellow *without knowing*". The preposition ב turns בלי דעת into an adverbial phrase, even though it makes no difference in English.


----------



## Isidore Demsky

Thank you.

So ב  means "without," and בלי דעת means something like "know," or "knowledge"?


----------



## Egmont

Isidore Demsky said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So ב  means "without," and בלי דעת means something like "know," or "knowledge"?



Not exactly. דעת means "knowledge." בלי means "without." The purpose of the prefix ב applied to בלי was explained by Drink in post 2.

_Added in edit: "Post 2" is now post 16, since this thread has been added to the end of an earlier thread. A similar explanation is now also in post 13._


----------



## Drink

To explain in a bit more detail what Egmont said: דעת is the verbal noun of ידע "to know", so in English it can be equivalent to the noun "knowledge", the gerund "knowing", or the infinitive phrase "to know".

And again like like Egmont said, בלי means "without".


----------



## Isidore Demsky

What is the difference in meaning between *וּֽמִבְּלִ֥י* and *מִבְּלִ֥י* ?


----------



## Drink

The prefix ו means "and".


----------



## Isidore Demsky

Drink said:


> The prefix ו means "and".


Thank you Drink.


----------



## Isidore Demsky

And לוא means "not" too?


----------



## Drink

Isidore Demsky said:


> And לוא means "not" too?



לוא is an alternative spelling of לא. It means "not" but is not used in the same situations as בלי.


----------



## JAN SHAR

Why? What situations is בלי used in?


----------

