# in bed with an elephant



## Chaska Ñawi

The late Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who was arguably one of our best and unarguably one of our most charismatic prime ministers, once said that being a neighbour of the United States was rather like sharing a bed with an elephant.  Even its twitches have repercussions for its bedmate.

Many Canadian elementary children believe that we have presidents instead of prime ministers.  If you ask them who our first prime minister was, they'll often tell you that it was George Washington.  We are far more familiar with American films and television programs, often for the simple reason that Canadian television stations will broadcast reruns of American sitcoms instead of Canadian first-run series.  Often it is only possible to see non-American films in repertory theatres, because the large theatres devote four or five rooms to the latest Hollywood offering.  Every issue of American security has a huge impact on Canadian travellers and workers in the States.  These are only a few examples out of a myriad.

  The Canadian national psyche is overwhelmed by the need to make one statement:  "We haven't figured out what a Canadian is yet, but you'd sure as hell better get one thing straight:  We aren't Americans!"  Nobody admits that many of us have American ancestors, have friends and family on the other side of the border, and spend every March break in Florida or Hawaii or South Carolina.

What about the Mexicans on the other side of the elephant?  What about New Zealanders versus the Australian elephant?  What about Ireland and England, or Belgium and France?  Bolivia and Argentina?

How are things for other elephant bedfellows?


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## maxiogee

Chaska Ñawi said:


> The late Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who was arguably one of our best and unarguably one of our most charismatic prime ministers, once said that being a neighbour of the United States was rather like sharing a bed with an elephant.  Even its twitches have repercussions for its bedmate.
> 
> Many Canadian elementary children believe that we have presidents instead of prime ministers.  If you ask them who our first prime minister was, they'll often tell you that it was George Washington.  We are far more familiar with American films and television programs, often for the simple reason that Canadian television stations will broadcast reruns of American sitcoms instead of Canadian first-run series.  Often it is only possible to see non-American films in repertory theatres, because the large theatres devote four or five rooms to the latest Hollywood offering.  Every issue of American security has a huge impact on Canadian travellers and workers in the States.  These are only a few examples out of a myriad.
> 
> The Canadian national psyche is overwhelmed by the need to make one statement:  "We haven't figured out what a Canadian is yet, but you'd sure as hell better get one thing straight:  We aren't Americans!"  Nobody admits that many of us have American ancestors, have friends and family on the other side of the border, and spend every March break in Florida or Hawaii or South Carolina.
> 
> What about the Mexicans on the other side of the elephant?  What about New Zealanders versus the Australian elephant?  What about Ireland and England, or Belgium and France?  Bolivia and Argentina?
> 
> How are things for other elephant bedfellows?



We don't tend to get political confusion, people know we have a Taoiseach and not a Prime Minister, and that our representatives are TDs and not MPs. However our tiny size means that we cannot support an great amount of indigenous 'culture' - be it in the media, sport at international level or culinary variety. We do tend to get a lot of British television production, and a lot from the US also. Our print media and television market is awash with British tabloid newspapers and UK tv stations. There is a huge following for the affairs of the UK's football industry - many people regularly travel to see 'their' team playing. This despite having a thriving Rugby industry which is, at present, winning all around it at club level and doing well internationally. 
On top of that we have two indigenous ball games, one a rugby/soccer cross called Gaelic Football, and the other a stick and ball game called Hurling which is unlike anything played in any other country (with the exception of Scotland's _Shinty_). These and our indigenous horse-racing business are hugely popular but the 'big stuff' happens abroad (where there's a moneyed market to generate revenue sufficient to afford huge prize-funds). We also do quite well at Golf - hosting the Ryder Cup this year for the first time ever.

But, like in any 'market', there will always be some degree of 'dumping' by large-scale producers into a smaller and less competitive market — and, the shinier, flashier import will almost always turn the head of the consumer. _C'est la vie_ (or at least _c'est les _facts_ de la vie_!)

As Europe becomes more and more influential in Irish life I don't see a diminishing of our "looking towards England" happening any time soon as the language link is a huge connection. Even if the UK never adopts the Euro and 'commits' as fully to Europe as many Europeans would like it to do, I don't see us diverting our gaze and looking to France or Germany for a cultural 'lead'.


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## don maico

Ireland has a clearly defined culture of its own- sport ,music literature to name but three. I am not sure Canada has though.Leonard  Cohen,J Mitchel and Neil Young are all Canadians but their music sounds American to me. Loreena Mckennit plays -   irish music, not Canadian, irish????What is Canadian art ,music and literature ?And which sports are they good at other than icehockey? What is it to be a Canadian ? I would like to know because I struggle to see clearly defined difference between them and the elephant just down south.If it was up to me I would strike the border line out


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## cuchuflete

don maico said:


> I wpould like to know because I struggle to see clearly defined diffrence between them and the elephant just down south.If it was up to me I would strike the border line out



From the elephant's perpective, I am very glad it is not up to you!

Canadians have their own culture.  It's young, developing, and different from that in the US.

Some of the things that seem to be different on the northern side of the border--

The US had massive waves of immigrants before it was PC, or even dreamt of, to think about multi-culturalism or "diversity" as a thing of value.  The US model, at least until very recently, promoted or demanded assimilation.  Canadians have had a distinct approach, giving much more encouragement to multi-culturalism.   Check back in a generation to see if the two cultures will have converged.

Canadians define "rights" differently.  Things that are being discussed in the US as theoretical solutions to social problems already have 'conventional wisdom' and legal assumptions in place in Canada.  No comments as to which is better.  The important thing is that the two cultures have different understandings of what is a 'right'.  

Canada has been attempting to become bi-lingual.  The US is gradually moving towards limited bi-lingualism in some regions, but without any governmental support, and often with official opposition.

The smaller animal helps keep the elephant from assuming that there is "one right way" to conduct domestic and foreign policy, by taking oppositie choices that sometimes work better, in both arenas.

Canadians have a Queen, while their poor relatives to the south are saddled with George III.

Canadians are less jingoistic than Americans.


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## don maico

I am sure Canadians have great qualities . Its just that we never hear of them ,which is why I aked the question , hoping for some kind of reaction.Its just that to us they appear to be in the shadows too much.
Slightly ironic in that  they see multiculturism  as a positive thing because here increasingly people see it as a negative, the fear being that we are gradually losing our sense of being English and that there is too much ghettoisation with diffent ethnic groups forming their own enclaves and shunning the outsiders - particulalry  Anglosaxons. Many havent even learnt our language properly and fly their previous generation's country's flag at sporting occasions. I would like to know what positive effects multiculturism there are and how Canada ( or the US for that matter)deals with the negatives if there be any.


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## Pedro y La Torre

I know Québécois culture is different to American culture but I think English Canadian culture is similar to American culture, which is obviously also English influenced. Or am I wrong?

What I do know about Canada is they have less guns, less crime and free healthcare, unlike the Americans.


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## LV4-26

Many of the best French-speaking artists, singers, entertainers, cartoonists are Belgian. Yet it seems we never cease to take the mickey out of them.


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## Chaska Ñawi

> Cuchuflete:  Canadians have a Queen, while their poor relatives to the south are saddled with George III.



Did my shrieks of laughter carry as far as Maine?

Before we go any farther, I really hope that this thread will carry farther than just Canadian/American relations.



> Pedro:  I know Québécois culture is different to American culture but I think English Canadian culture is similar to American culture, which is obviously also English influenced. Or am I wrong?



Wellllll ... leaving the English ancestry aside, English American culture seems influenced more by urban black culture and by Latin American culture than we are - our major influences are Quebecois, Chinese, and Indian.  There has also been an emphasis on restitution to native Canadians, and on celebrating more elements of their culture and strengthening it.  We are obsessed with hockey, and every Canadian, however urban, thinks that his true self is paddling a canoe on some northern lake.  The truth, however, is that Canadians have never agreed on what exactly the Canadian identity _is_,  which is why we're so obsessed with stating that, whatever we are, we aren't Americans.  Many of Canada's most successful comedy routines poke fun, not always kindly, at Americans.



> Don Maico:  I would like to know what positive effects multiculturism there are.



You have to bear in mind that whatever I say will be a generalisation.  The civil service and major academic and financial institutions (not, alas, the government) are populated by a rainbow of people who bring many different perspectives and languages to their work.  Our music - in fact, all aspects of the arts - reflect a fusion of different traditions, and has become much more interesting of late.  There is much better understanding of and respect for other religions and traditions among the averge anglo-saxon population.  The concept of a global village is alive and well in urban areas, although it hasn't percolated into rural Canada with the same intensity.

I'll come back to the downside later.


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## danielfranco

For Mexicans, the analogy of the elephant goes something like this:
Please imagine you share *bunk beds* with an elephant, and he sleeps on the top one.
There.


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## Bonjules

Chaska Ñawi said:


> The truth, however, is that Canadians have never agreed on what exactly the Canadian identity _is_,


 
_  Chaska, I can only say: "Canada felix!"_
_And may it be like that forever. Do you 'need' one,_
_really? One would hope that the whole concept of the _
_'nation - state/identity' would become less important in a age __when so many serious problems know no borders._
_._
_Be Canada so lucky as to live/let live in peace __as a 'nation' of many_ different groups, colors and ideas without having to define anything else!
saludos


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## Victoria32

Chaska Ñawi said:


> The late Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who was arguably one of our best and unarguably one of our most charismatic prime ministers, once said that being a neighbour of the United States was rather like sharing a bed with an elephant. Even its twitches have repercussions for its bedmate.
> 
> Many Canadian elementary children believe that we have presidents instead of prime ministers. If you ask them who our first prime minister was, they'll often tell you that it was George Washington. We are far more familiar with American films and television programs, often for the simple reason that Canadian television stations will broadcast reruns of American sitcoms instead of Canadian first-run series. Often it is only possible to see non-American films in repertory theatres, because the large theatres devote four or five rooms to the latest Hollywood offering. Every issue of American security has a huge impact on Canadian travellers and workers in the States. These are only a few examples out of a myriad.
> 
> The Canadian national psyche is overwhelmed by the need to make one statement: "We haven't figured out what a Canadian is yet, but you'd sure as hell better get one thing straight: We aren't Americans!" Nobody admits that many of us have American ancestors, have friends and family on the other side of the border, and spend every March break in Florida or Hawaii or South Carolina.
> 
> What about the Mexicans on the other side of the elephant? What about New Zealanders versus the Australian elephant? What about Ireland and England, or Belgium and France? Bolivia and Argentina?
> 
> How are things for other elephant bedfellows?


Re Australians and New Zealanders - there are many hundreds of New Zealanders in Australia, and I venture to suggest that every adult New Zealnder has been or goes to Australia at least once.
Yet there is this 'rivalry' and some bad feeling (which I don't share, partly because a lot of it is about team sport, which I find is one of the most boring subjects on earth!) 
What has always surprised me is the linguistic and cultural divide which a lot of people don't realise exists. It's only since I became "the New Zealand office" (sole charge) for an Australian company that I realised that there is more than two hours of time separating us! I communicate with "Head Office" by phone and email, and have met only two of them - I feel I know them, but occasionally a phone call or an email makes me realise that I really don't..
Vicky


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## Victoria32

LV4-26 said:


> Many of the best French-speaking artists, singers, entertainers, cartoonists are Belgian. Yet it seems we never cease to take the mickey out of them.


Yes... one of my friends is a Belgian poet (whose father lives in Paris). Why is it that you do that? (But they takle it in good part, don't they)  

Vicky


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## luis masci

Chaska Ñawi said:


> ? What about Ireland and England, or Belgium and France? Bolivia and Argentina?
> How are things for other elephant bedfellows?


Hehe Chaska…I know your relationship with Bolivia and probably you know better than me how Bolivians see my country. However I don’t think Argentina might be seen as an Elephant by Bolivians. Maybe they would only because its size and population is bigger than Bolivia. But our decadent industry, our frequent economic disasters and our mess in political matter, do any Argentina’s neighbor would see us as an elephant. 
Maybe the only elephant in the region would be Brazil. But just because its huge size and population; not for other reason because the same “attribute” that I described for Argentina would fit in fairly well for Brazil too. 
Saludos and excuse me if my English is not properly. 

Luis


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## Chaska Ñawi

Thanks, Luis - that's all true.  You just don't hear as much about Brazil as you do about Argentina and Chile - and Argentina certainly has a far greater influence.

 And incidentally, what's it like being un argentino sharing a bed with Brazil?


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## aleCcowaN

Chaska Ñawi said:


> And incidentally, what's it like being un argentino sharing a bed with Brazil?


Though many Argentinians still suspect our major comercial partner and neighbour, I don't think we're really worried about Brazil. The main reason is Brazil having a rich South and a poor North, then Brazil itself catches migrations avoiding us to assimilate millions of Brasilians. Otherwise we had had such a strong inmigration that our culture -and surely feelings- would have changed.

I think that the "elefantito" whose movements propagates across the matress enough to worry us is again US. Though we are divided by a reinforced concrete slab, there's a bunk bed over it and our heads, and as you know, elephants are heavy.

We have lots of Americans living here nowadays -an many Canadians too- and sometimes an American guy chose to say he is Canadian in order to be trusted immediately, as we tend to think in terms of the following equation

Canadian (English speakers) = American + kinda European + humility

Besides, we have Hallmark! and "The Kids in the Hall" matches better our kind of humour than Saturday Night Live, Seinfeld or Friends could do (total failures here). The elephant casts a big shadow, but not enough to hide which is behind.


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## Chaska Ñawi

Moderator Note:  Posts on the differences and similarities between Americans and Canadians have been moved to this thread.


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## Mariaguadalupe

Chaska Ñawi said:


> The late Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who was arguably one of our best and unarguably one of our most charismatic prime ministers, once said that being a neighbour of the United States was rather like sharing a bed with an elephant. Even its twitches have repercussions for its bedmate.
> 
> Many Canadian elementary children believe that we have presidents instead of prime ministers. If you ask them who our first prime minister was, they'll often tell you that it was George Washington. We are far more familiar with American films and television programs, often for the simple reason that Canadian television stations will broadcast reruns of American sitcoms instead of Canadian first-run series. Often it is only possible to see non-American films in repertory theatres, because the large theatres devote four or five rooms to the latest Hollywood offering. Every issue of American security has a huge impact on Canadian travellers and workers in the States. These are only a few examples out of a myriad.
> 
> The Canadian national psyche is overwhelmed by the need to make one statement: "We haven't figured out what a Canadian is yet, but you'd sure as hell better get one thing straight: We aren't Americans!" Nobody admits that many of us have American ancestors, have friends and family on the other side of the border, and spend every March break in Florida or Hawaii or South Carolina.
> 
> What about the Mexicans on the other side of the elephant? What about New Zealanders versus the Australian elephant? What about Ireland and England, or Belgium and France? Bolivia and Argentina?
> 
> How are things for other elephant bedfellows?


Trudeau ws right.  Sharing a border with the US is definitely like sleeping with an elephant.  You feel every single twitch.  As Daniel mentioned, the analogy is bunk beds and the elephant on top (we actually use hens and you really never want to be under a sleeping hen!).  

Down here (stateside) and up here (mexican side) our families and our economies are so intertwined that you know you are on a different country only because local government lets you know.  

As I said before, our local economies are dependent on each other.  Just to give you a picture, in 1976 at the time of the peso devaluation (the peso went from 12.50 per dollar to 25 pesos per dollar) Most of the mexican students enrolled in private schools on the american side, had to be pulled out.  That meant that the local american schools were force to either reduce their number of classrooms or close altogether.  

A local american store owner used to say that he always prayed for a great mexican harvest because he would then be assured a good profit.  He said his best customers were mexican.  He closed after the december 1994 peso devaluation.  (as another 5 stores did too)

 And we just touched the economy side of effects of sleeping with an elephant.  However, I wonder, who is the real elephant here?  US or México?


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## .   1

Chaska Ñawi said:


> What about New Zealanders versus the Australian elephant?


I can't see that Australia is much of an elephant but I must say that I do envy the laid back NZ lifestyle.
My visits to the country revealed a simpler more wholesome less fulsome view of the world.
I really like their anti nuke policy.
Their snow is much better than ours.
Their Prime Minister is human.

Hey, wait a minute...

.,,


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## mirx

> I wonder, who is the real elephant here? US or México?


 
You are absolutely right in most of what you said. Although I have no doubt who the elephant is. Just for instance remember what happened in 2002-2003 when Mexico voted in the UN security council against the American Invasion in  Irak. or Everytime they have a small fluctuation in their economy it all magnifies in the domestic mexican economy.
If it were not for those drunken american teenagers crossing the border every weekend many shops would go bankrupt.

Now, the other side of the coin, there are aproximately 1 million americans living in Mexico, the largest community of americans living outside the USA, and represent around 1 % of Mexico's population, many of them have businesses and make a living out of Mexican commerce. What would happen with those families if we had another "expropiation"?

There's a movie called "A day without Mexicans" that pretty much shows what a day with no Mexicans would be like in the States, the huge economic and cultural impact that Mexicans have had in the States is evident.

It is also very true that our economies are dependant on each other, a bad rush in the Mexican economy immediately reflects in the American one; and a bad rush in American economy exterminates Mexican economy for a while.

Still I stick to that old saying:

¡Ay, pobre de mí México! ¡Tan lejos de Dios y tan cerca de los Estados Unidos!


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## Alxmrphi

Thankfully I'm not in a bed with an elephant, but I understand how annoying it must be to be in bed with an elephant, especially one you don't approve of (America/Canada).

I don't like the idea of a superpower, where this kind of thing happens, anyone agree live would be better without superpowers (not the hero kind)


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## sokol

Chaska Ñawi said:


> The Canadian national psyche is overwhelmed by the need to make one statement:  "We haven't figured out what a Canadian is yet, but you'd sure as hell better get one thing straight:  We aren't Americans!"


How nice to discover this thread. 

"We haven't figured out what an *Austrian *is yet, but you'd sure as hell better get one thing straight: We aren't Germans!"

And it is *really *like that: you need to change nations only, and there you are: Austria explained to the world! 
We Austrians do not want to be called Germans - especially not by foreigners, and especially not if we're in a holiday resort where 80% are German, and 5% are Austrians who are hiding behind the English language in order not to be called Germans (oh, there's also those other 5% Austrians who speak German nevertheless, of course).

Sure, Austrians _do _know that they have a president who is a figurehead elected by the whole population, and most don't even know that Germany's figurehead is elected by parliament - and not in general elections.

But Austria too still is fighting for not being mixed up with Germany. (Austrians _do _speak German - for those who don't know this - but still a different variety of German. More different certainly than Canadian and American English; it is probably more like the relation between Scots and English in the UK.)


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## Nanon

Am I under the impression that _all _of us Europeans are in bed with an elephant these days (US presidential election, Obamania, etc.)?
The peculiar nature of the US elephant encourages polygamy...


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## sokol

Ah yes, there _is _something about Europe in general being in bed with the US of A ... and it hasn't even begun with Obama; it probably goes back to the Marshall plan (or even further).
And strangely there is already a phenomenon of (some) people knowing (in some respects) more about US culture than about our own - ask children what a wedding ceremony is all about: and they most likely will describe a Hollywood wedding to you (except if they've just recently participated in a local one, or if they've just recently seen the UK comedy Four Weddings ...).

Nowadays many people - at least in Austria - only learn about Austrian weddings when they grow older.


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## Victoria32

sokol said:


> Ah yes, there _is _something about Europe in general being in bed with the US of A ... and it hasn't even begun with Obama; it probably goes back to the Marshall plan (or even further).
> And strangely there is already a phenomenon of (some) people knowing (in some respects) more about US culture than about our own - ask children what a wedding ceremony is all about: and they most likely will describe a Hollywood wedding to you (except if they've just recently participated in a local one, or if they've just recently seen the UK comedy Four Weddings ...).
> 
> Nowadays many people - at least in Austria - only learn about Austrian weddings when they grow older.


I call that American cultural hegemony and it makes me very cross! A few weeks ago, I was making an enquiry of a young woman at NZ Post, about missing mail, and I said to her "I suppose it's gone 'up the Buhai'" (a well known NZ idiom. Or so I thought! She didn't know the idiom, but she did know to tell me to "fill out" (sic) a cpmplaint form, and adhere to their "sked-yool"... 



Vicky


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## palomnik

Chaska, if Canadians sometimes have difficulty sorting out their heritage with regard to the USA, take comfort in the fact that people in most other countries around the world don't make the mistake of considering a Canadian to be an American!


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## Hakro

Sharing the bed with an elephant may be annoying, but you have to keep in mind that the elephant is a tame animal, it may be stupid but it doesn't usually hurt you purposely.

Instead, we have shared the bed with a bear... We Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, and the rest of the east-side nations of Europe. Now and then the bear may seem to be sleeping but you never know. And it's obviously impossible to ask the bear to give you a little more room in the bed, just for breathing more freely...


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## esedex

danielfranco said:


> For Mexicans, the analogy of the elephant goes something like this:
> Please imagine you share *bunk beds* with an elephant, and he sleeps on the top one.
> There.





Nanon said:


> The peculiar nature of the US elephant encourages polygamy...



I like these two answers.

In a way, I agree with them. I'd just add that the big problem of this matter is that we have to sleep below the bed (_being crushed_) despite we're in the other top of the world. 

We could say that our bed has been taken.

Note: And still there's a linguistic fact (I'll call it "linguistic fact" to not cause problems): is that the "we" is much bigger that the "they".


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