# Там, должно быть, никого нет



## Day & Night

Hello! How do they say it in English:
_Там, должно быть, никого нет.
_I just somehow can't figure out the part about "должно быть"


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## rusita preciosa

There must be no one there.

(Not the most elegant way to put it, wait for others' sugestions).


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## JDnCoke

*There shouldn't be anyone (over) there.*

Должно tends to indicate obligation, as in this instance, indicating that by the rules, no one should be there.

"There must be no one there."

This is not incorrect, but the nuance is not perfect. "There must be no one there" is slightly more speculative, indicating that the speaker is not sure if someone is there
_По-моему, там никого нет _perhaps?


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## Awwal12

> По-моему, там никого вообще perhaps?


I believe, "there must be no one there" ~ "там никого не должно быть", while "there shouldn't be anyone over there" ~ "там, должно быть, никого нет". Although I am not sure, my English is far from perfection.


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## Day & Night

Awwal12 said:


> I believe, "there must be no one there" ~ "там никого не должно быть", while "there shouldn't be anyone over there" ~ "там, должно быть, никого нет". Although I am not sure, my English is far from perfection.



So is mine But I have a slight hint in this exersise "Remember that "must" in the meaning of supposition is not used in the negative". And this hint does not help me much


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## Sobakus

должно быть doesn't mean should or must, it means "it must be". And the sentence literally translates to "It must be that there's no one there". So it's not modal, but expresses assumption/supposition(as your exercise hints). "there must be no one there" and "there shouldn't be anyone over there" both translate to "там никого не должно быть", I think.


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## JDnCoke

Awwal12 said:


> I believe, "there must be no one there" ~ "там никого не должно быть", while "there shouldn't be anyone over there" ~ "там, должно быть, никого нет". Although I am not sure, my English is far from perfection.



 Seems right to me!


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## Awwal12

JDnCoke said:


> Seems right to me!


But not to myself.  Formally, it should be so, but I still cannot decide which Russian construction implies more speculation.


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## Natalisha

I'm with Rusita here.

There shouldn't be anyone (over) there. - Там никого не должно быть.
There must be no one there. - Должно быть, там никого нет.


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## JDnCoke

Awwal12 said:


> But not to myself.  Formally, it should be so, but I still cannot decide which Russian construction implies more speculation.



Ah, well I'm no native speaker, but it feels as if the first is more speculative. There's something about having должно быть in apposition that seems to make it more commanding.


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## Natalisha

Day & Night said:


> Hello! How do they say it in English:
> _Там, должно быть, никого нет.
> _I just somehow can't figure out the part about "должно быть"



You can say: "Probably there is no one/nobody there."


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## Awwal12

JDnCoke said:


> Ah, well I'm no native speaker, but it feels as if the first is more speculative. There's something about having должно быть in apposition that seems to make it more commanding.


Well...
"Там никого не должно быть." (Maybe it's forbidden, or there are some other objective causes - which still don't guarantee that there is really nobody over there, of course.)
"Там, должно быть, никого нет." (Sounds like a plain suggestion.)


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## estreets

From what I was taught


> *Must* в сочетании с Indefinite и Continuous Infinitive употребляется для выражения предположения с большой долей уверенности, вероятности, относящегося к настоящему времени.


So, what's wrong with 


> There must be no one there


?


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## Awwal12

estreets said:


> So, what's wrong


Well, if it really implies "большую долю уверенности, вероятности", then it's rather "там никого не должно быть" (когда, теоретически, кто-то там может и быть, но вообще-то никого быть не должно).


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## estreets

awwal12 said:


> well, if it really implies "большую долю уверенности, вероятности", then it's rather "там никого не должно быть" (когда, теоретически, кто-то там может и быть, но вообще-то никого быть не должно).


Там никого не должно быть - это не доля уверенности, это, скорее, приказ!
Практически - чтоб там никого не было!


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## Awwal12

> Там никого не должно быть - это не доля уверенности, это, скорее, приказ!
> Практически - чтоб там никого не было!


Давайте не будем рассматривать это ещё и в значении приказа! У меня и так уже мозги плавятся. )
Вот возьмём пример:
"- Вань, а паспортный стол работает?
- Работает.
- Странно, там никого не должно быть сегодня."
Или:
"- Вась, мы когда склад грабить будем?
- Сегодня, там как раз никого не должно быть."
Я в обоих случаях вижу явную уверенность, что "там" никого нет (и, в первом случае, удивление из-за несоответствия этого убеждения реально наблюдаемой картине). Фраза "должно быть, там никого нет" в обоих случаях будет ну явно неуместной - она подобной уверенности отнюдь не выражает. А как бы могли сказать англоговорящие?..


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## morzh

JDnCoke said:


> Seems right to me!




Nope. Not right at all.

Там, должно быть, никого нет = Там, наверное, никого нет = Там, вероятно никого нет = There probably no one in there. -> Вероятностная оценка (probability / degree of being sure)

Там никого не должно быть - it is a dual phrase. It can be an order (Тhere must not be anyone in there) and it can be a guess that has a high degree of being sure (there must not be anyone in there). Both English and Russian phrase meaning depends on context.

- Там никого не должно быть - сказал генерал. Адьютант немедленно помчался, на ходу крича "Всем уйти из помещения!".
(An order example)

- Там никого не должно быть - сказала Аня, и, на всякий случай, постучала в дверь, крикнув "Есть тут кто-нибудь"? (A reasonable guess example)


-----


However the "Там, должно быть, никого нет", translated as "there must be no one in there" (a correct translation in itself) in English also becomes context-dependent (not so in Russian).

There must be no one in there - it can be an order, as in earlier Russian example, and it can be a guess with very high degree ir being sure.

- There must be no one in there - said Jack, after no one answered the door. (a guess)
- There must be no one in there, because we will be using high explosives and there may be some danger to those inside - said the explosive technician. (an order)


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## estreets

Awwal12 said:


> Давайте не будем рассматривать это ещё и в значении приказа! У меня и так уже мозги плавятся. )
> Вот возьмём пример:
> "- Вань, а паспортный стол работает?
> - Работает.
> - Странно, там никого не должно быть сегодня."
> Или:
> "- Вась, мы когда склад грабить будем?
> - Сегодня, там как раз никого не должно быть."
> Я в обоих случаях вижу явную уверенность, что "там" никого нет (и, в первом случае, удивление из-за несоответствия этого убеждения реально наблюдаемой картине). Фраза "должно быть, там никого нет" в обоих случаях будет ну явно неуместной - она подобной уверенности отнюдь не выражает. А как бы могли сказать англоговорящие?..


My guess: Nobody must be there.


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## JDnCoke

Oh dear, I seem to have confused things. I think the confusion is not with the Russian per se, but with the meaning of English 'must'. I've cracked out my Terence Wade (pp. 343) and he says:

The use of *должно быть*, in parenthesis, denotes supposition:
_Она, должно быть, заболела - She must have fallen ill
Он, должно быть, не понял - He can't have understood_

So_, as _morzh and Sobakus have pointed out
_Там, должно быть, никого нет _means that, according to the speaker, the likeliness of someone being there is low, but it does not exclude the possibility.

As a native English speaker, in this instance as a supposition (!), Day&Night's original sentence would be translated idiomatically as:
"_There shouldn't be anyone there_ (but there might be, I'm not sure)"

The problem with the English sentence "there must not be anyone there" is it sounds very awkward, but it does imply an order. More idiomatically it could be rendered was:
"You must not let anyone go there"
"No one is allowed to be (in) there"
"There ought not to be anyone (in) there" (this is a high register).

Estreets:
"Nobody must be there" - "_Там, должно быть, никого нет"
_You would here this sentence most likely when trying to find a person:

Mark: did you call Peter?
Jane: I did but the phone just rang and rang. *Nobody must be there.*

Tom: have you been to John's house?
Sarah: I have but I knocked and no one answered. *Nobody must be there.

*Finally,
Там никого не должно быть - this suggests the modal not a supposition.
In English, it would be:
"_No one is allowed in there_ (it is against the rules)"
"_Nobody is allowed to be there_ (because the boss said so)"

"_No one must be there" / "No one should be there_" do not work as well because they are ambiguous and the first one, as noted above, is more situation specific. These could be modified slightly to be more idiomatic and less ambiguous:

"_No one ought to be be allowed in there_"
"_No one is supposed to be allowed in there_"


I believe a lot of the confusion in terms of the modal meaning arises from the fact that it's a genitive negative, which makes the translator try to capture this in English, because "from the point of view of the room" no one is allowed there. 

Would this be less ambiguous in Russian?
*Никто не должен быть там – No one is supposed to be there.*


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## estreets

А вот, стало быть, и еще один вариант! 


JDnCoke said:


> "Nobody must be there" - "_Там, должно быть, никого нет"_
> You would here this sentence most likely when trying to find a person:
> 
> Mark: did you call Peter?
> Jane: I did but the phone just rang and rang. *Nobody must be there.*
> 
> Tom: have you been to John's house?
> Sarah: I have but I knocked and no one answered. *Nobody must be there.*


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## Awwal12

JDnCoke said:
			
		

> "No one is allowed in there (it is against the rules)"
> "Nobody is allowed to be there (because the boss said so)"
> ...
> "No one ought to be be allowed in there"
> "No one is supposed to be allowed in there"


The problem is that "allowed", as far as I get it, definitely implies some laws or some governing person, while "не должно быть" only may imply it.
"В этом секторе никакой планеты не должно быть" hardly can be translated as "no one planet is allowed to be in that sector"  at all, right?


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## JDnCoke

Awwal12 said:


> The problem is that "allowed", as far as I get it, definitely implies some laws or some governing person, while "не должно быть" only may imply it.
> "В этом секторе никакой планеты не должно быть" hardly can be translated as "no one planet is allowed to be in that sector"  at all, right?



Well, this is what morzh was getting at with context. You're right that "no one planet is allowed to be in that sector" does not translate the Russian. Allowed in this instance applies more to humans (it could, however, make for a very interesting story... about people banning planets from going places because planets are indeed capricious...)

"В этом секторе никакой планеты не должно быть"
"There shouldn't be any planets in that sector"  

I would _not_ translate this as
"There must not be any planets in that sector" 
because it has the same modal inference as Awwal12's other translation above.

Perhaps the original Russian is ambiguous?

Не лучше ли переводить как "В этом секторе, не должно быть, нет никакой планеты" ?? Would this make it more suppositive?


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## Awwal12

> Не лучше ли переводить как "В этом секторе, не должно быть, нет никакой планеты" ??


No way!  "Должно быть" is just a parenthetical phrase expressing supposition, but there is no parenthetical phrase "не должно быть", such a phrase can be predicative only ("где-л. не должно быть никакой планеты", for instance; the word order is irrelevant).
But we still have 2 Russian variants:
"В этом секторе никакой планеты не должно быть" (according to all our observations, calculations and other known data)
"Должно быть, в этом секторе нет никакой планеты" (i.e. most likely/probably there is no planet over there)
You would use "There shouldn't be any planets in that sector" to translate the first one, right?..


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## rusita preciosa

Honsetly, I'd take this to the EO forum. Here we have just one native's opinion; in EO we would have several, both AE and BE.


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## Day & Night

Thank you all very much


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