# Persian: پیرزن را دست بدرخت آلو نرسید گفت مرا خود ترش نسازد



## aisha93

Hi everybody,

This is a proverb (ضرب المثل) I found in Dehkhoda Dictionary: پیرزن را دست بدرخت آلو نرسید گفت مرا خود ترش نسازد , which I also found a similar one and probably with the same meaning:  پيرزن را دست بدرخت الو نرسيد گفت، ترشي بمن سازگار نيست 

Actually there is an Arabic proverb with the same meaning as the second proverb I listed above which says: الي ما يطول العنب حامض عنه يقول > (literally: He who can't reach up to the grape, describes it as a sour fruit). It means that persons vilify the things that they can't reach/achieve/understand...etc.


My problem is with the first one: پیرزن را دست بدرخت آلو نرسید *گفت مرا* *خود ترش نسازد* 

1- What is the meaning of the second part of it? the words highlighted in bold? and is خود here referring to پیرزن or درخت آلو?

2- I can't understand ترش نسازد, do you say ترش ساختن/ترش سازیدن? because I've only heard of ترش کردن

اگر شرح دادنش یه خورده سخت است، به فارسی بنویسید اشکالی نداره
مرسی


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## searcher123

> 1- What is the meaning of the second part of it? the words highlighted in bold? and is خود here referring to پیرزن or درخت آلو?


This is an old structure that was common in classic Persian and many native Persians can not understand it at the present just as you! I just can say خود is referring to درخت آلو, but why they was using خود in similar sentences always, you should wait to *QURESHPOR* answer. He know classic Persian much more.

پيرزن را دست بدرخت آلو نرسيد گفت، ترشي بمن سازگار نيست is much more understandable and according with current Persian, however, it is not a common proverb at the present. Instead of it, we will use گربه دستش به گوشت نمي‌رسه، مي‌گه پيف پيف بو مي‌ده.



> 2- I can't understand ترش نسازد, do you say ترش ساختن/ترش سازیدن? because I've only heard of ترش کردن


As I said, this structure is not common in modern Persian. The equivalent of مرا خود ترش نسازد in modern Persian is ترشي به من سازگار نيست or in colloquial, ترشي به من نمي‌سازه.

Be aware that ترش سازيدن or ترش ساختن are different of چيزي به كسي ساختن. Two first (specially ترش سازيدن) are not common at the present and as you said, their equivalent in modern Persian is ترش كردن (i.e. 1.adding sour to sth; acidifying 2. reflecting maw's hydraulic acid into esophagus). But چيزي به كسي ساختن (i.e. to be sth  compatible with a person's nature) is completely common. For example:

آب و هواي شيراز به من نمي‌سازد. هر وقت مي‌روم شيراز، مريض مي‌شود
گوجه فرنگي به من نمي‌سازد. هر وقت مي‌خورم، تنم جوش مي‌زند
خرما به من نمي‌سازد. هر وقت مي‌خورم، گرميم مي‌كند


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## Qureshpor

piir-zan raa dast ba-daraxt-i-aaluu na-rasiid

= dast-i-piir-zan ba-daraxt-i-aaluu na-rasiid

= The old lady's hand did not reach the plum tree 

= The old lady's hand could not reach the plum tree

guft maraa xvud tursh na-saazad

She said, I myself do not find sour (things) agreeable. (maraa xvud = xvud-i-man raa)

The old lady is saying, "Whatever anyone might think about the situation, I don't really like sour things anyway. I don't know why I am even bothering to stretch my hand to this stupid tree!"


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## Alfaaz

aisha93 said:
			
		

> Actually there is an Arabic proverb with the same meaning as the second proverb I listed above which says: الي ما يطول العنب حامض عنه يقول > (literally: He who can't reach up to the grape, describes it as a sour fruit). It means that persons vilify the things that they can't reach/achieve/understand...etc.


Could you perhaps provide a transliteration of this proverb (so the exact pronunciation of the words becomes clear-as there are no fatHah, kasrah, dhammah/zabar, zer, pesh)...? Thanks.


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## Qureshpor

^
I shall have a go!

ilayya maa yatuulu_l3anba HaamiDhun 3anhu yaquul(u)

(I am having problem with the first word...it could be ilaa)


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## aisha93

To *Searcher123*:



> گربه دستش به گوشت نمي‌رسه، مي‌گه پيف پيف بو مي‌ده



Great proverb, thank you.



> آب و هواي شيراز به من نمي‌سازد. هر وقت مي‌روم شيراز، مريض مي‌شود



Does *با من* نمی سازد mean the same as *به من* ? 
Because I mostly see *با *چیزی سازگار بودن not *به *, especially in formal writing.

To *QURESHPOR*:



> (maraa xvud = xvud-i-man raa)



Just to make sure, look at this verse from Sa3di (which I can't understand): 

*مرا خود* با تو سری در میان هست/وگر نه روی زیبا در جهان هست
Does it mean the same here?





To *Alfaaz*:

I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that the proverb was in GA Dialect, not MSA (FuS7a).

الي here means الذي = who

الي ما يطول العنب حامض(ن) عنه يقول > (elle mayTule-l 3enab 7amuDHe-n 3annah yeGul) "G=گ" , and this is actually a song sung by 
a singer (songstress) called أحلام (a7lām)


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## searcher123

You are welcome my sister.



aisha93 said:


> Does *با من* نمی سازد mean the same as *به من* ?



No, it doesn't. با من نمي‌سازد is used when "persons" have problems with each other and mean "[s]he have some conflicts with me". For example:

 همسايه‌مون با من نمي‌سازه. هر وقت منو مي‌بينه باهام دعوا مي‌كنه
من و زنم با هم نمي‌سازيم. بايد طلاق بگيريم
از بچّگي اون و باباش با هم نمي‌ساختند و بالاخره هم از خونشون فرار كرد



aisha93 said:


> Because I mostly see *با *چیزی سازگار بودن not *به *, especially in formal writing.



با چيزي سازگار بودن is different of با كسي سازگار بودن too. با چيزي سازگار بودن mean "to be suitable with sth". For example:
رنگ اين لباس با اين شلوار سازگار نيست
مدل اين لباس با اين شلوار سازگار نيست
نحوه‌ي آرايشت با هنجارهاي جامعه سازگار نيست


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## aisha93

Excellent explanation and examples, thank you. دستت درد نکند


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## aisha93

I've reached a conclusion about مرا خود and want you to confirm it please.



> پیرزن را دست بدرخت آلو نرسید *گفت مرا* *خود ترش نسازد*



According to Dehkhoda:*مرا. [ م َ ] (از « مََ »، مخفف  «من » + را) من  را. برای  من . به  من* .

مرا by itself (alone) in this proverb means به من isn't it? And خود serves as an emphasis, so it becomes: به خود من ترش نسازد , am I right?


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## Qureshpor

aisha93 said:


> I've reached a conclusion about مرا خود and want you to confirm it please.
> 
> According to Dehkhoda:*مرا. [ م َ ] (از « مََ »، مخفف  «من » + را) من  را. برای  من . به  من* .
> 
> مرا by itself (alone) in this proverb means به من isn't it? And خود serves as an emphasis, so it becomes: به خود من ترش نسازد , am I right?


The use of raa in Classical Persian is somewhat different in its usage than in the modern language.

e.g uu-raa do bachchah buud. He/She had two children.

xudaa-raa = For God's sake

In the Sa'di (Sa3dii) example "maraa" = of me = my

I have already indicated in my initial post...

She said, *I myself* do not find sour (things) agreeable. (maraa xvud = *xvud-i-man* raa)


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## aisha93

Thank you, all clear now.


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## Qureshpor

aisha93 said:


> Thank you, all clear now.


That's good. Think of the Classical "raa" to mean "to, for, of" (dative/genitive) and I don't believe you will go wrong.


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## Alfaaz

Thanks for attempt QURESHPOR SaaHib and the informative reply aisha93 SaaHibah!


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## Qureshpor

aisha93 said:


> I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that the proverb was in GA Dialect, not MSA (FuS7a). الي here means الذي = who
> 
> الي ما يطول العنب حامض(ن) عنه يقول > (elle mayTule-l 3enab 7amuDHe-n 3annah yeGul) "G=گ" , and this is actually a song sung by a singer (songstress) called أحلام (a7lām)


If I added  الذي to my transliteration, would it be correct fusHaa?


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## aisha93

QURESHPOR said:


> If I added  الذي to my transliteration, would it be correct fusHaa?



You can't do that since the whole sentence is in Colloquial Arabic, which does not follow (all) of the Arabic Grammar Rules, so we have to change the context a bit, in order to say it in MSA (FuS7a).

If you want to restate that sentence (الي ما يطول العنب حامض(ن) عنه يقول) in MSA, you may say:
- منْ لا يطولُ العِنَبَ، يَصِفُهُ بالحامِضِ > you can also replace من by الذي , and notice that the word ما became لا in MSA

For a more literal one, you can say:
- من لا يطول العنب، يقولُ عنهُ أنهُ حامض


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## eskandar

The Persian proverb which is the subject of this thread may well be a calque from the Arabic expression, which is itself probably of Greek origin; it comes from Aesop's fable of the fox and the grapes (which is also the source of the English expression "sour grapes"). As you know, the classical Arab and Muslim philosophers engaged significantly with the Greek tradition and thus classical Arabic absorbed quite a number of Greek words and expressions.


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