# Hindi: Kartaaon / karta (subjects)



## Englishmypassion

Hi all,
In Hindi-English grammar books for children, can we write "kartaa*on*" (the plural of 'karta', meaning subject) or not?
For example:
1. 'Are' ka prayog bahuvachan* kartaaon* (subjects) ke sath kiya jata hai.
2. 'Has' kas prayog ekvachan *kartaaon* (subjects) ke sath kiya jata hai.
3. 'Have' ka prayog bahuvachan *kartaaon* (subjects) k sath kiya jata hai.
4. 'Were' ka prayog bahuvachan *kartaaon* (subjects) ke sath kiya jata hai.
Which will you use in them: *karta* or *kartaaon*? Please note that I have to give the word "subjects" (or 'subject' if I have to change it into karta?) in brackets as above.

What's your take on it?
Many thanks.


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## Wolverine9

Considering the lack of responses, it seems you asked a tough question. 

I'm not certain, but I think _kartaa _is correct.  Oxford Hindi-English dictionary lists _kartaa _as an invariable noun, but doesn't specify for which meaning it is invariable.  It can't be invariable for all meanings because there are thousands of results on Google, including literary references, for _kartaaooN._  However, for _ekvachan kartaaooN _and _bahuvachan kartaaoN, _there is a grand total of 0 references on Google, which suggests these forms are not grammatically correct.  Please wait, though, for responses from people with greater expertise in Hindi.


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## Englishmypassion

Thank you very much for finally responding to my question, Wolverine. I am obliged. I can't really understand why nobody (except one great person I had consulted by personal message) answered my question for so many days ! I even thought of requesting the moderators to delete the thread if possible and allowed.
If you search "ekvachan kartaaon" or "bahuvachan kartaaon" in Google Books, you will get several results. I prefer Google Books to Google Web. As for "kartaa" being invariable in all senses, I have a doubt since we do use the plural combining form  
"-kartaaon" as in "Netaji party ke kaaryakartaaon se mile". I can't think of a sentence that uses only "karta/kartaaon" in any other sense than the subject in grammar though. Thanks.


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## Wolverine9

I didn't get any results for "ekvachan kartaaon" or "bahuvachan kartaaon" in Google books.  Did you search in Hindi with quotation marks around the phrases? That's the best way to do it.


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## Englishmypassion

Thanks for your troubles. I typed in Devanagari and didn't put any quotation marks. But I did get results.


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## Wolverine9

If you look carefully at those results, you will see they are probably not relevant to what you are looking for.


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## Englishmypassion

Hello Wolverine, here is a link to Dr R.P. Chaturvedi's book _Hindi Vyakaran. _It says "Kisi vaakya mein yadi do ya do se adhik* kartaon* ke madhya 'athwa' ya 'ya' aadi ka prayoug hua ho to aise vaakya mein kriya ekvachan ki hogi", page 166. However, I don't know how authentic the book is.
https://books.google.co.in/books?id...SOCh18wQNG#v=onepage&q=बहुवचन कर्ताओं&f=false

Thanks.


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## mundiya

So, what have you concluded Emp jii?


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## Englishmypassion

To go with your version, mundiya jii.


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## Englishmypassion

The biggest problem is how to say in Hindi that 'had' is used with all subjects in the past tense: 'Had' ka prayog bhootkaal me *sabhi kartaon/karta* ke sath kiya jata hai. Here, *karta *sounds really odd after 'sabhi', doesn't it? And I have to retain the word 'sabhi'.


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## mundiya

Yes, in this sentence "sabhii kartaaoN" seems right to me.  My explanation is that when "ekvachan" and "bahuvachan" qualify it, "kartaa" stays the same.  Otherwise, it can take the form "kartaaoN".  I wish I could give you a better or more definitive answer,  but this explanation sums up what I think.  Did the Hindi Vyakaran book use the forms "ekvachan kartaaoN" and "bahuvachan kartaaoN"?


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## Englishmypassion

The book says "Wah vaakya jismein samaam purush, vachan aur ling ke ek se adhik karta hon aur ant ke karta se pehle 'aur' ka prayog ho to kriya bahuvachan tatha *kartaon* ke ling ke anusaar hogi", and "Kisi vaakya mein yadi do ya do se adhik* kartaon* ke madhya 'athwa' ya 'ya' aadi ka prayoug hua ho to aise vaakya mein kriya ekvachan ki hogi". I have posted the link above for further reference. Thanks a lot.


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## mundiya

The first "kartaaoN" seems like a "grey area" if you understand what I mean.


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## Englishmypassion

Thank you. Yes, I understand: you mean it falls in the corridor of uncertainty because there is only _one type_ of karta, i.e having the same number, person and gender, e.g. Ram, Rahul, Rohit aur Sachin school* jaate* hain ( the writer means it can be niether *jata* nor *jaatii*). Here, you seem to take* karta *_only _as a grammar concept no matter how many persons are involved as long as they are of the same number/gender and as long as the* karta *refers to one *concept/type of subject*. But what if we mean *doers *by _subject_, can't we? They are different _doers_ of an action: I think this is the logic also followed in English.


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## mundiya

Yes, that's a good point.


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## Englishmypassion

Thank you. So taking that point you agree that _"'Is'/'Are' ka prayog ekvachan/bahuvachan *kartaon* ke sath kiya jata hai"_ is also correct as is _'"Had' ka prayog* sabhi* *kartaon* ke sath kiya jata hai" ? _


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## mundiya

The second sentence is certainly correct.  I'm still not sure about the first.  Logically it should be right, but I'd feel more comfortable endorsing it if there was more clear evidence for it.  My recommendation is to rephrase your sentence in a way so that only "kartaa" is used and still sounds correct.  That way you will avoid the possibility of wrong usage.


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## Englishmypassion

And evidence is what I have been looking for but...


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## marrish

Let me just look at the sentences from that grammar book. I haven't heard the author's name but it doesn't mean anything but a good reason to take a close look at his/her sentences. While I haven't got hold on any evidence about the purported propensity of _kartaa_ not to take the plural oblique [indirect case] _-oN_ when qualified by _ek-/bahuvachan_.

Despite of the confusion whether to inflect _kartaa_ with _bahuvachan_ and the likes and do it in other cases, the solution seems to be very simple:

_kartaa_ marked as _invariable_ in Prof. McGregor's Oxford Hindi Dictionary means that it _is invariable_ in singular, when followed by postpositions (e.g. कर्ता ने), when qualified by an adjective, and plural nominative [direct case].

तार्किक कर्ता यह है(nom.sg)। तार्किक कर्ता ने कर्म किया(erg.sg)। वाक्य में दो कर्ता हैं (nom.pl)। कर्ता को प्रकट नहीं किया (obl.sg)। इस में कर्ता बहुत से हैं (nom.pl)।

It doesn't change in plural like बेटा -> बेटे but stays the same like अभिनेता, पिता, नेता, for example ये बच्चों के दो पिता थे etc. In all these senses and usages it is steadfastly _invariable_.

So I believe it is just a matter of following this rule as I tried to describe above.

The *plural oblique* [plural indirect case] *requires* _kartaa_ to behave as any other noun is supposed to do and inflect to *कर्ताओं*. In this form it is used when followed by postpositions, preceded by an adjective or followed by a verb, for instance.

All these sentences illustrate this,

Kisi vaakya mein yadi *do ya do se adhik (pl.) kartaaoN* *(pl.obl.)->*postposition *ke madhya* 'athwa' ya 'ya' aadi ka prayoug hua ho to aise vaakya mein kriya ekvachan ki hogi"

Wah vaakya jismein samaam purush, vachan aur ling ke ek se *adhik kartaa hoN (pl.obl.)* aur ant ke *kartaa se pehle* *(sg.obl.)* 'aur' ka prayog ho to kriya bahuvachan tatha *kartaaoN ke* *(pl.obl.) *ling ke anusaar hogi",

I would say this is good Hindi and it should be followed.


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## marrish

I made a mistake above. 


marrish said:


> purush, vachan aur ling ke ek se *adhik kartaa hoN (pl.obl*


 I should have typed plural nominative, and that's the point. To sum it up, this is the declension:


Nominative singular: kartaa, pitaa, netaa
Nominative plural: kartaa, pitaa, netaa
Oblique singular: kartaa, pitaa, netaa
Oblique plural: kartaaoN, pitaaoN, netaaoN
Invariable in both numbers in nominative and obl.sg., variable in obl.pl.​


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## Englishmypassion

Thank you very much, marrish jee. You have given a fantastically enlightening explanation. Words aren't enough to thank you. I am much obliged to your for solving this complicated riddle for me.


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