# Croatian, Serbian, Serbo-Croatian: They have been telling you



## onitamo

Molim, kako je ispravno prevesti?
All these religious teachers *have been telling you *things which are unnatural.
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govorili su vam *stvari koje su neprirodne.
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govore vam *stvari koje su neprirodne.
................
zbunjuje me zato jer se radnja događala u prošlosti kontinuirano ali i danas se nastavlja..


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## Ruukr

It is better to use not -govorili su vam, but 
- rekli su vam .


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## pastet89

I am sorry but I have to disagree. Exactly the verb *govoriti* fits perfectly for this context. I would pick up:
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govorili su vam *stvari koje su neprirodne. 
or just (sounds better if you want to allow less strict translation):
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govorili su vam *neprirodne stvari.


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## Ruukr

I'll not insist, but I can see the slight difference. 
(actually we can translate both - говорить и рассказывать, but I think that you can see the difference also if you analise the definitions by collins or the others. I prepared the tablue (just as for refference - русский, болгарский, хорватский). 
speak - говорить, казвам, govoriti, 
say - сказать, кажа, reci, 
tell - рассказывать, разказвам, reći
talk - болтать, изтърва, brbljanje? 

 Вот если Вы скажете: 
All these religious teachers have been speaking you
Все эти религиозные учителя говорили вам
Всички тези религиозни учители ви е казал
Svi ti vjerski učitelji govorili su vam
Но:
All these religious teachers have been telling you
Все эти религиозные учителя рассказывали вам
Всички тези религиозни учители ви разказах
Svi ti vjerski učitelji su vam rekli

(я не спорил, я только предложил по другому, т.к. есть тонкая грань, ну я её вижу).


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## pastet89

Thanks for your input.

I am quite confident that "govoriti" is still better here though. I think your confusion comes from your native Language - Russian. I am not fluent enough in it, but I know that Russian people use the Russian "говорить" a lot of the time for what Bulgarians and Serbians would say "казал"/"rekao"/"said" respectively. 

Almost all Russian who speak my native language Bulgarian make the same mistake - Той говорил, че ще спи. (Он сказал, что он будет спать) - which is actually *wrong*. The correct Bulgarian sentence would be "Той *каза*, че ще спи." And In BCS the connotation of those verbs is identical to Bulgarian. So, looking at your table, I would make some amendments to it:

speak - говорить / казвам / govoriti, *pričati*
say - сказать, / кажа, / reći, 
tell - рассказывать, / разказвам, / reći, *pričati, govoriti*
talk - болтать, / изтърва, / brbljanje?  -> Изтърва means to "drop" something (on the floor)
chat - болтать/ бърборя, лафя си / brbljati, ćaskati

The most important point lays in the various meanings of "tell" in Serbian. Although "tell" may mean all of *reći*, *pričati, govoriti,* the choice of which of the three translations to be chosen is not free and is dependent on the context:

I told him to come. -> Rekao sam mu da dođe.
I told him a joke. -> Ispričao sam mu vic.
I was telling him to stop drinking. -> Govorio sam mu da prestane da pije.

Please take attention especially to the last example, which is the same context as the question of OP. In this case at most I would imagine using "pričati" (although govoriti sounds better IMO), but reći can not be used at all. Reći implies always a single, one-time completed action of saying a sentence, word or any piece of short information. Which can not be used for telling in the meaning of continuously telling a story, a philosophy of religion, a presentation at TedTalk etc...


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## Ruukr

As I told you here is very slight difference. If you analize the bearings of these words you will imbibe my thoughts.
Lets go to origins:
speak- *Origin*
Old English sprecan, later specan, of West Germanic origin; related to Dutch spreken and German sprechen.

tell - *Origin*
Old English tellan ‘relate, count, estimate’, of Germanic origin; related to German zählen ‘reckon, count’, erzählen ‘recount, relate’, also to *tale**.*

tale - A fictitious or true narrative or story, especially one that is imaginatively recounted.
*Origin*
Old English talu ‘telling, something told’, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch taal ‘speech’ and German Zahl ‘number’, also to tell. tale (sense 2) is probably from Old Norse.

So, regarding:
All these religious teachers *have been telling you *things which are unnatural. - All these religious teachers told him the tale-story things which are unnatural. (рассказывали... сказки/ Разказват... приказки - разказват, but not говори).
powered by Oxford


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## Zec

As a native speaker I'm confident that pastet89 got this right: _govoriti_ is the verb that fits. The verb _pričati_, in the standard language, is only used for telling literal stories or retelling events, it can't be used to introduced indirect speech like that. Now, some people, especially children use it as a general synonym of _govoriti_, but it still wouldn't fit in this context. Bulgarian is definitely (and expectedly) closer to Croatian than Russian is when it comes to use of words like this.

(As an off-topic note, that's some wierd book you're translating!)


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## pastet89

If you say:
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *rekli su vam *stvari koje su neprirodne.
it means:
All these religious teachers *have said to you *things which are unnatural.


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## onitamo

Zec said:


> As a native speaker I'm confident that pastet89 got this right: _govoriti_ is the verb that fits. The verb _pričati_, in the standard language, is only used for telling literal stories or retelling events, it can't be used to introduced indirect speech like that. Now, some people, especially children use it as a general synonym of _govoriti_, but it still wouldn't fit in this context. Bulgarian is definitely (and expectedly) closer to Croatian than Russian is when it comes to use of words like this.
> 
> (As an off-topic note, that's some wierd book you're translating!)


I completely agree with Zec. All Slavic languages don't have the same "spirit" of language, or the way of using the words ...
and answer to an off-topic note: It is translation of video discourse - of Osho..
It can be maybe more clear :
"_Jesus says to love your enemy. Have you ever thought, if you don't have any hate in you, can you have love? That is not possible. *All these religious teachers have been telling you things which are unnatural: "Love everybody."* It is not possible. You can neither love everybody nor can you hate everybody." Osho_ From Darkness to Light chapter 20, Q1_


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## Ruukr

onitamo said:


> I completely agree with Zec. All Slavic languages don't have the same "spirit" of language, or the way of using the words ...
> 
> It can be maybe more clear :
> "_Jesus says to love your enemy. Have you ever thought, if you don't have any hate in you, can you have love? That is not possible. *All these religious teachers have been telling you things which are unnatural: "Love everybody."* It is not possible. You can neither love everybody nor can you hate everybody." Osho_ From Darkness to Light chapter 20, Q1_


 The spirit is the same, but the using ways are different. And these (using ways) has nothing to do with english rules... 

But anyway - according to rules - Perfect continiuous:
1) The action that began in the past, *lasted for some time and continues* to take place in the present. 
_She has been cooking dinner for three hours already._
2) *A prolonged action* in the past that ended just before the moment of speech, and the result of this action has an impact on the present. 
_The streets are wet. It has been raining all morning._

Lasted or prolonged actions!!! Other words:
*have been telling you* is related to the *things* , and has nothing to do with the phrase *"Love everybody"*.


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## onitamo

> *have been telling you* is related to the *things* , and has nothing to do with the phrase *"Love everybody"*.


I don't understand how is telling related to the things. this word Things is used for subject matter.. not for material things..
We could say like this: "he is telling us about the things which he doesn't know"..(On nam govori o stvarima koje nezna)
Here was word* things* used for general subject matter..
And Osho is also free to express himself in his way.. translator has to be true to the original text but try to put translation in the spirit of translated language as much as possible. Once he said to one Italian disciple -translator.. that even if he said something  grammatically wrong he should not change his words..
someone can repeatedly *have been telling* some stories in his talk to the audience  and we (on Balkan  ) would say : on je *govorio* predugo (he was talking to long) or someone can *tell* something, and we would say: on *govori* gluposti .it is not related to the things ....


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## nimak

onitamo said:


> Molim, kako je ispravno prevesti?
> All these religious teachers *have been telling you *things which are unnatural.
> Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govorili su vam *stvari koje su neprirodne.
> Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govore vam *stvari koje su neprirodne.
> ................
> zbunjuje me zato jer se radnja događala u prošlosti kontinuirano ali i danas se nastavlja..



Nije li bolje prevesti _Present Perfect Progressive Tense_ kao:
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govore *stvari koje su neprirodne.

*Govore* može značiti neodređeno vrijeme: _govorili su, govore, i vjerojatno će govoriti._

Ili možda:
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govorili su i govore (vam) *stvari koje su neprirodne.


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## nimak

I think for this context Serbo-Croatian uses *govorili*, rather than _*rekli*_.

In Macedonian *govoram* is too literary word, so the verbs _*zboruvam, velam*_, _*kažuvam*_ and _*rečam*_ are more often used.


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## onitamo

yes, I feel it also to use *govorili *rather than* rekli. .. *
Thank you all for your kind replies.


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## alexl57

*Govoriti* fits best. As for the choice of tense, I would keep it in the past here, because the teachers in question are, presumably, no longer alive. But you could always opt for "govorili su vam i još uvek govore", as Nimak suggested.


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## Hachi25

Malo sam se izgubio u raspravi, pa unaprijed isprike ako nešto preskočim ili ponovim, ali htio bih samo nešto objasniti.


onitamo said:


> zbunjuje me zato jer se radnja događala u prošlosti kontinuirano ali i danas se nastavlja..


Nema potrebe za zbunjivanjem, sve se može svesti na par bitnih zaključaka:

u srpskohrvatskom ne postoji glagolsko vrijeme koje bi bilo potpuno ekvivalentno engleskom obliku _have been telling_
glagolsko vrijeme kojim se može izreći kontinuirana prošlost koja i dalje traje može biti:
prezent imperfektivnih glagola: Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govore/pričaju/iznose *vam neprirodne stvari.
perfekt imperfektivnih glagola: Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govorili/pričali/iznosili su* vam neprirodne stvari.

ako moram birati, varijanta sa perfektom mi zvuči bolje
ako se želi dodatno naglasiti da je radnja kontinuirano trajala u prošlosti i nastavlja se u sadašnjosti, onda u rečenicu treba nešto dodati da bi se ta kontinuiranost naglasila, npr.:
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *i danas* vam *govore *neprirodne stvari.
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *i sada *vam *govore *neprirodne stvari.
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *oduvijek* vam *govore *neprirodne stvari.
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *(od)uvijek su vam govorili *neprirodne stvari.

ako se ništa od toga ne može ubaciti, preostaje ideja koju je spomenuo nimak:
Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govorili su i govore* (vam) neprirodne stvari.

Čini mi se da je problem nastao zbog logičke greške na početku, točnije zbog objašnjenja koje Ruukr daje u postu #4. Problem nije u nijansama značenja glagola _govoriti_ i _reći_, nego njihov aspekt. U engleskom aspekt ne postoji, ali u slavenskim jezicima je veoma važan. Da bi se englesko _have been telling_ prevelo na bilo koji slavenski jezik, potreban je imperfektivni glagol. U postu #4 to je dosljedno samo u ruskim primjerima, a u srpskohrvatskima nastaje problem:

Все эти религиозные учителя *говорили *вам = Svi ti vjerski učitelji *govorili su vam*
Все эти религиозные учителя *рассказывали *вам = Svi ti vjerski učitelji *su vam rekli*
Prva rečenica je u redu, ali druga nije. Glagol _reći_ je isključivo perfektivan i na ruskom bi druga rečenica bila _Все эти религиозные учителя *рассказали *вам. _A kad bi glasila tako, ni ona ne bi odgovarala engleskom _have been telling_.


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## onitamo

Hvala na lijepom objašnjenju s primjerima


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## thegreathoo

I like _Imperfekat_, I think it works like a charm with english, even though it sounds archaic.
_Pluskvamperfekat _and _Imperfekat _or just _Imperfekat._

Svi ti vjerski ucitelji _*bijahu vam govorit*_ stvari neprirodne.
Svi ti vjerski ucitelji _*govorahu vam*_ stvari neprirodne.


I like it, with english translations.


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## onitamo

thegreathoo said:


> Svi ti vjerski ucitelji _*bijahu vam govorili*_ stvari neprirodne.
> Svi ti vjerski ucitelji _*govorahu vam*_ stvari neprirodne.


Hvala, da zvuči arhaično ,ali ako bih ja nekome to rekla u prevodu, rekla bi spontano:
" Svi ti vjerski ucitelji *govorili su vam* stvari neprirodne."


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