# Da gibt es doch auch viel zu essen (function 'doch')



## loureed4

Hello,

   I ran into this sentence: "Da gibt es *doch *ach viel zu essen". I have translated like: "Since there are too much to eat." 

  What I can't make sense of is the meaning of "doch" here, because if I omitted, the meaning remains the same! (as I see it, but I am a newcomer in German)

Thanks in advance!


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## Perseas

I think it would be rather "However here there is much to eat". _however=doch_


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## loureed4

Thanks Perseas!

Where is "here" in the original sentence?

 And what about "Da" (=since) ?

 . Vielen Dank!


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## Liam Lew's

Would you like to provide further context? I can't make sense out of the sentence. The word "ach" bothers me.


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## loureed4

Thanks Liam 

Yes, it is all about food in a ship, and the captain being afraid that the rats go to the place where the food is kept.

So, he captain says in English: "How about the fridge/pantry?, since there are too much food to eat." . The underlied part is how I translated the German sentence above.

It makes sense to me without "doch", that is why I don't get it.

Thanks once more!


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## Perseas

loureed4 said:


> Thanks Perseas!
> 
> Where is "here" in the original sentence?
> 
> And what about "Da" (=since) ?
> 
> . Vielen Dank!



I translated "da" as "here", but it can also mean "there". If "da" meant "since", the verb "gibt" would be at the end of the sentence.


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## loureed4

I see Perseas. It was just that an online translator suggested "since" as the only translation for "Da", not even other posibilites. I guess I don't have to rely only on one translator.

Anyway, isn't "hier" = "here" ?

Thanks a lot for yout time Perseas!


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## loureed4

I have just checked in another translator Perseas, you are right, sorry.

THANKS!!


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## Liam Lew's

So the original is in German. What is about the word "ach" is it spelled correctly? It would make much more sense if it were "auch". If it were "auch", I would translate the sentence as "What's about the fridge/pantry. Isn't there a lot of food too?".
The word "since" doesn't work as translation for "da", since the word "da" hasn't a conjunctional function in the original sentence. So Perseas is right. 
The word "too much" also doesn't work.



loureed4 said:


> Anyway, isn't "hier" = "here" ?


Yes, it is.


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## loureed4

It is "auch" , sorry!!


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## loureed4

"auch viel" is not "too much"?

It is not a question Liam, it is a stamente: "Da gibt es doch auch viel zu essen".

Thanks again Liam!


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## loureed4

I get it now = "auch" = too  , and "viel"= a lot. 

I see!!


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## loureed4

"auch viel" = "...a lot (of food) too..."

But then, if you want to say: "too much food" ?


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## Liam Lew's

loureed4 said:


> "auch viel" is not "too much"?
> 
> It is not a question Liam, it is a stamente: "Da gibt es doch auch viel zu essen".
> 
> Thanks again Liam!


What I posted wasn't a question, but a rhetorical question. The original sentence is also rhetorical question, because of the word "doch". 
You're right "auch viel" is not "too much". It is something like "also much". But "also much" doesn't sound idiomatic in English. 


If you use "too much" the sentence becomes ambiguous. It can mean "auch viel" or "zu viel" and it's more likely to understand it as "zu viel". And it's better to avoid ambiguity.


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## loureed4

So, "doch" implies a rhetorical question?. Wow. I have seen this word in other context and learned that could mean "yes" too!! .

I don´t get your last sentence Liam. "...'too much' can mean "auch viel" or "zu viel" ...." .  And you say that by writing 'auch viel', ambiguity is avoided?. So, to say 'too much' is better 'zu viel' and to say 'a great deal too'  is better 'auch viel'.

I am confused, but this is because I am such a beginner. THANKS FOR THE PATIENCE!!


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## Edinburgher

If the captain is concerned about rats, I presume he is suggesting that the pantry is a place in which (like other places which may have been mentioned earlier) there is also plenty of food which could attract rats.  So if you want to go rat-hunting, the pantry is a good place to look.  The "doch" is a mild intensifier, which in this context doesn't really need to be included in the translation; but the nearest thing to doing so might be to move it all the way back as a "but":  "But how about the pantry?  There's also a lot of food to eat there."

The first part, up to and including "pantry", is a rhetorical question, the second part merely justifies or explains that question, it is not itself a direct part of it.


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## Liam Lew's

The word "doch" can imply a rhetorical question or a normal question. But it doesn't have to be used that way. It is just done very often. If you know something and something else makes you doubting about it, you often use "doch" in a question to get certainty. 

Ok let's explain my last sentence a bit clearer.

A native speaker of English will understand "too much" as 
"zu viel, not as "auch viel".  And so your original sentence would be misinterpreted.

*Edit: *Edinburgher is right it isn't necessarily a rhetorical question. That's just the way I interpret it. I see both sentences as a whole unit, that builds a rhetorical question, which is used as a statement.


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## loureed4

That was great Edinburgher!. Still difficult to me, but a great way to explain it.

I quote from you:

'The "doch" is a mild intensifier. ' ----> great to know!!, at last, I was so confused with this word!. THANKS!

I quote again: 

'The first part, up to and including "pantry", is a rhetorical question...' .  Being this the original sentence: "Da(= There, in the pantry) gibt es doch ach viel zu essen". , I don't see up to where is the rethorical part.

THANKS, VIELEN DANK! (It is almost the only thing I know how to write in German, hehe)


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## Edinburgher

Liam Lew's said:


> A native speaker of English is more likely to understand "too much" as
> "zu viel", because it a very common collocation. But it can also mean "auch viel".


 I don't think this is true; I think "too much" always means "zu viel".  Can you give an example?  Perhaps you mean "much too".


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## Liam Lew's

Edinburgher said:


> I don't think this is true; I think "too much" always means "zu viel". Can you give an example? Perhaps you mean "much too".


Sorry, you're right. Actually I just stated it that way to relativize my statement. I wasn't able to think of a case in which "too much" means "auch viel", but I also didn't want to exclude it inconsiderately. I'm going to change my post. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Edinburgher

loureed4 said:


> I quote from you:
> 'The "doch" is a mild intensifier. ' ----> great to know!!, at last, I was so confused with this word!. THANKS!


 It is a mild intensifier in this context. In other contexts (as you correctly pointed out in #15) it does mean *yes*, but it is a special kind of _yes_, namely the kind which contradicts a *no*:
Parent: _Du gehst heute abend um 9 Uhr ins Bett._
Child: _Nein, ich wollte mir gern erst noch den Krimi ansehen._
Parent: _*Doch*, denn morgen ist Schule und du musst früh aufstehen._
Kind of like "Oh yes you will {go to bed at 9}"


> I quote again:
> 'The first part, up to and including "pantry", is a rhetorical question...' .  Being this the original sentence: "Da(= There, in the pantry) gibt es doch *auch* viel zu essen". , I don't see up to where is the rethorical part.


 I meant the part "How about the pantry?" or whatever its original German was, perhaps something like "Wie ist es denn mit der Kombüse?".  The rhetorical question ends at the question mark.


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## Angelo di fuoco

As I see it, grouping "auch" with "viel" in this sentence doesn't make sense.

Da| gibt es| doch| auch| viel zu essen.

You can translate "auch" as "also":
"There's also much to eat there".
It's not an error to use "also", since "also" & "much" don't belong together: "there's also" | "much to eat".
Or
"There's much to eat there, too".

Actually, "Da gibt es doch auch viel zu essen" is a rethoric question, it's supposed to be true with a little space left for doubt, so you can add "oder etwa nicht": 

"Da gibt es doch auch viel zu essen, oder etwa nicht?"
"There's much food, isn't there?"


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## loureed4

!!


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## Edinburgher

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Actually, "Da gibt es doch auch viel zu essen" is a rethoric question, it's supposed to be true with a little space left for doubt, so you can add "oder etwa nicht":
> "Da gibt es doch auch viel zu essen, oder etwa nicht?"
> "There's much food, isn't there?"


 Well, I guess it can be turned into a rhetorical question by adding that tag question to the end, but unless you actually add it, it's simply an explanatory statement.


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## Angelo di fuoco

I think that, without doch, the sentence "Da gibt es auch viel zu essen" is an explanatory statement, whereas adding doch ("Da gibt es DOCH auch viel zu essen") makes it already a question.


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## Liam Lew's

I agree with Edinburgher. First I also thought it is a rhetorical question, but that was just because of the way I interpreted/imagined it. It can be turned into a rhetorical question either by adding the tag question or by a special intonation and gesture/mimic. And this is what I had in mind, when I said that it is a rhetorical question. But that's on my own part, not facts.


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## Angelo di fuoco

Well, in this very sentence, adding "doch" adds a shade of doubt, implying that the speaker isn't completely sure about what he's saying or that what he is saying might not be true.


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## loureed4

I have to reread it all. YOUR REPLIES MEAN A LOT TO ME, Gosh, I have to reread them, I am overwhelmed.


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## Edinburgher

Angelo di fuoco said:


> Well, in this very sentence, adding "doch" adds a shade of doubt, implying that the speaker isn't completely sure about what he's saying or that what he is saying might not be true.


 I think in this context the captain is completely sure that there is food in the pantry.  I agree that in some contexts (but not in this one) _doch_ can indicate reduced certainty, but even then it still does not become a question until explicitly turned into one, such as by adding "oder?".

There is no more ice cream left in this shop, it's sold out.  -- _ Kommt, versuchen wirs mal beim andern Laden gegenüber, die verkaufen doch sicher auch Eiskrem._  --  No question here, even though we're not sure the other shop sells ice cream.


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## Hutschi

"*Da gibt es doch  (this part is a fixed phrase)
auch
* viel zu essen"

I think "doch" is an intensifier here with the connotation "you should know"/"as it is known"/"as you should know" or  "Be quiet, dont worry, there is a lot of food"

You cannot see "doch" insulated (isolated?), it is part of this phrase.



> Edinburgher: I think in this context the captain is completely sure that there is  food in the pantry.



I agree. 

Maybe "There is indeed a lot of food".


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## loureed4

Really interesting!! ....although as a total Beginner, I feel a bit confused.

Could I say then that IT IS TO ADD EMPHASIS, LIKE "indeed" ? 

I appretiate all the replies, I am really really thankful for them!


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## Hutschi

I think, "indeed" would be a good rendering.
It is not exactly the same, but adds this emphasis.


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## loureed4

Thanks Hutschi!! . I guess that at first,for the sake of learning, simplicity is good. The deeper I get into German, the more nuances I will get to know but for now, maybe I only need broad, general explanations (nice and kind explanation which I appreciate big time!!  )


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