# Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή....



## panettonea

Two of the following sentences are from the Babiniotis grammar--the third is not, so it may not even be valid.  (Can you guess which one?  ) Both parts in these sentences are supposed to be counterfactual.

Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμένει η Άννα.
Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμένει η Άννα.
Η Ελένη δεν θα είχε εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμένει η Άννα.

Which (if any) of these sentences would be the most common in Greek?  And do the sentences really express that much difference in meaning?  It's pretty much impossible to translate the first sentence literally into English, because in English there is no way to use the present perfect in a counterfactual if-clause--you have to use either the past or the past perfect.


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## Perseas

All three sentences have something wrong. First, it is _έχω/είχα επιμείνει_ (not _έχω/είχα *επιμένει_).



panettonea said:


> 1. Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμ*εί*νει η Άννα.
> 2. Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμ*εί*νει η Άννα.
> 3. Η Ελένη δεν θα είχε εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμ*εί*νει η Άννα.



Here's my translation of the 3 sentences:
1. Eleni will have never appeared on the scene, if Anna has not insisted.
2. Eleni will have never appeared on the scene, if Anna had not insisted.
3. Eleni would have never appeared on the scene, if Anna had not insisted.


Another alternative: _Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα_.


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> All three sentences have something wrong. First, it is _έχω/είχα επιμείνει_ (not _έχω/είχα *επιμένει_).



OK, I just copied and pasted from the "unofficial" translation.  Maybe that's why it's unofficial.  



> Here's my translation of the 3 sentences:
> 1. Eleni will have never appeared on the scene, if Anna has not insisted.



Thanks.  Why do you feel that sentence 1 is incorrect in Greek?  It's directly from Babiniotis, so apparently he and Clairis consider it to be correct.  Actually, I don't have the printed book, but I think it's unlikely that the guy translating it messed up the tenses of the verbs too.  Or at least I hope not.  

The guy's translation was:  _Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna would not have insisted. _

So, you're saying that his translation is wrong in terms of both "on stage" and the translated tenses?  Your translation actually makes more sense to me.  I don't know the background of the guy who translated it--whether he's a native speaker or not.   But I'd still like to know why you consider it incorrect but Babs doesn't.  (Incidentally, the second part of his translation, _if Anna would not have insisted_, is not grammatical English.)   



> 2. Eleni will have never appeared on the scene, if Anna had not insisted.



That sentence was my own tentative creation, but I see that it's obviously not valid.  It's fun to test the waters, though.   



> 3. Eleni would have never appeared on the scene, if Anna had not insisted.



That's exactly how we'd say it in English.   (Actually, we'd normally say _would never have appeared_, but my point is that we would use the exact same tenses.)



> Another alternative: _Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα_.



That's actually another sentence straight from Babs, but I didn't include it here because I didn't have any questions about it.


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## Perseas

panettonea said:


> Thanks.  Why do you feel that sentence 1 is incorrect in Greek?  It's directly from Babiniotis, so apparently he and Clairis consider it to be correct.  Actually, I don't have the printed book, but I think it's unlikely that the guy translating it messed up the tenses of the verbs too.  Or at least I hope not.


 Nothing wrong with the grammar, it just sounds strange to me and unidiomatic.



panettonea said:


> The guy's translation was:  _Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna would not have insisted._ So, you're saying that his translation is wrong in terms of both "on stage" and the translated tenses?


Do you think that "Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμείνει η Άννα" translates as "Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna would not have insisted"? I don't. Maybe "on stage" is better than "on the scene", though.


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> Nothing wrong with the grammar, it just sounds strange to me and unidiomatic.



Thanks.  Do you have a printed copy of the Babs grammar?  Or surely someone who reads this board does?  This sentence would be under the section titled ΤΡΟΠΙΚΟΤΗΤΑ.  



> Do you think that "Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμείνει η Άννα" translates as "Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna would not have insisted"?



I'm probably not the right person to ask.  



> I don't.



The translator could have made some other errors as well, so that's why it would be helpful if someone has the "real" book.


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## ireney

"Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμείνει η Άννα" translates into "Helen will never have appeared on stage, if Anna hasn't insisted" and makes as much senses in English as it does in Greek.

I found the grammar online and the only sentence I could see with Helen doing anything artistic is: Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα. Where are the others?


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> "Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμείνει η Άννα" translates into "Helen will never have appeared on stage, if Anna hasn't insisted" and makes as much sense in English as it does in Greek.




Which means not much at all.  



> I found the grammar online and the only sentence I could see with Helen doing anything artistic is: Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα. Where are the others?



Here's the link to the "unofficial" translation.  The following paragraph appears under the heading "The particle θα/83.":

http://web.archive.org/web/20071225051217/http://www.geocities.com/klairbab/modality.html

_The particle θα, just like ας, is not used to introduce complement clauses. Contrary to the other two particles (να and ας), it does accept negation, which always appears before the particle:

    Ο Μάριος δεν θα γιορτάσει τα γενέθλιά του.
    Marios will not celebrate his birthday. [Future Perfective]
    Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα.
    Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna did not insist. [Condition]
    (Η Ελένη δεν θα έχει εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν έχει επιμένει η Άννα.
    Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna would not have insisted. [Condition])
    Η Ελένη δεν θα είχε εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμένει η Άννα.
    Helen would never have appeared on stage, if Anna had not insisted. [Condition])_
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That paragraph effectively ends section 83., and is followed by "I. Possibility - Probability/84."  So, how much of the paragraph above actually comes from the original?  Are you allowed to post a link here to the original?


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## ireney

I'm afraid I can't but look at your PMs  
Such examples are not included in the book as I saw it in two places on line.


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## Acestor

The Clairis-Babiniotis grammar contains only the two sentences:
_
Ο Μάριος δεν θα γιορτάσει τα γενέθλιά του.
    Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα._

The American chap working on its translation tried to give another version of the Greek conditional, one similar to the English third conditional, using "είχα":
_Η Ελένη δεν θα είχε εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμένει η Άννα._ (The extra comma is his own addition. And it should be "είχε επι*μεί*νει".)
This is (almost) correct Greek and it also removes the frequent problem of interpreting the Greek second conditional (is this about now or about the past?). This can be part of a long debate.

However, the translator failed miserably in his second effort (with "έχει εμφανιστεί"), which is a pure figment.


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> I'm afraid I can't but look at your PMs



Cool--PMs are _fun_.   



> Such examples are not included in the book as I saw it in two places on line.



So this, um, "translation" got pretty creative in certain places, huh?    Thanks so much for checking.


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## panettonea

Acestor said:


> The Clairis-Babiniotis grammar contains only the two sentences:
> _
> Ο Μάριος δεν θα γιορτάσει τα γενέθλιά του.
> Η Ελένη δεν θα εμφανιζόταν ποτέ στη σκηνή αν δεν επέμενε η Άννα._



Wow.  Thanks, Acestor.



> The American chap working on its translation tried to give another version of the Greek conditional, one similar to the English third conditional, using "είχα":



Hey, please don't hold that against Americans in general, though.  We're not all like that, 'kay?  



> _Η Ελένη δεν θα είχε εμφανιστεί ποτέ στη σκηνή, αν δεν είχε επιμένει η Άννα._ (The extra comma is his own addition. And it should be "είχε επι*μεί*νει".)
> This is (almost) correct Greek and it also removes the frequent problem of interpreting the Greek second conditional (is this about now or about the past?). This can be part of a long debate.



That's interesting.  I'm surprised he didn't include a recipe for σπανακόπιτα in the text as well while he was at it. 



> However, the translator failed miserably in his second effort (with "έχει εμφανιστεί"), which is a pure figment.



I wonder when this guy's sequel is coming out??????  No doubt it will sell at least 2 or 3 copies!  

I think I've learned a big lesson: _ Never_ trust anything written about Greek by a non-native speaker of Greek on the Web.


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## panettonea

Acestor said:


> The American chap working on its translation tried to give another version of the Greek conditional



I looked at this "translation" again.  In one of the English sentences, he uses the word "aeroplane."  Nobody from the U.S. would ever use that word.  So, whatever planet this guy is from,  it isn't America.


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