# مكنسة (feminine markers)



## asadxyz

Hi 
Which is of the following sentences will be correct grammatically?
انكسر المكنسة
انكسرت المكنسة 
Any help appreciated.


----------



## clevermizo

انكسرت المكنسة

Agree in gender; however one uses the singular form of the verb when precedes the subject as in a sentence like this.


----------



## cherine

clevermizo said:


> انكسرت المكنسة
> 
> Agree in gender


Yes, you're right about that.


> however one uses the singular form of the verb when precedes the subject as in a sentence like this.


Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by this 
The difference between the two sentences is only in the gender, not the singular vs. plural.


----------



## clevermizo

I was just trying to clarify how agreement rules work in a جملة فعلية. For example, قالت البنات but إنّ البنات قلن. I thought this might have been part of the confusion over this sentence since مكنسة is clearly feminine.


----------



## asadxyz

clevermizo said:


> I thought this might have been part of the confusion over this sentence since مكنسة is clearly feminine.



Actually this is point of my confusion.

Does "taa Marboota" always mean that the word is "feminine " like in علامة , معاوية,طلحة
The second problem is, are the nouns of instruments as this is the case, have also gender?
Clarification will be appreciated.


----------



## cherine

clevermizo said:


> I was just trying to clarify how agreement rules work in a جملة فعلية. For example, قالت البنات but إنّ البنات قلن. I thought this might have been part of the confusion over this sentence since مكنسة is clearly feminine.


Now I understand, thanks 


asadxyz said:


> 1. Does "taa Marboota" always mean that the word is "feminine " like in علامة , معاوية,طلحة
> 2. The second problem is, are the nouns of instruments as this is the case, have also gender?


1. The taa2 marbuta *usually* indicates a feminine word, but there are few exceptions; like معاوية - طلحة which are men's names.
2. Yes, اسم الآلة have gender. Actually all words in Arabic must have a gender. Arabic doesn't have a neutral form.


----------



## asadxyz

Hi
Thanks a lot for prompt reply.Would you please have a look on this website and the table labelled as "pattern B (medium)" and "Principle 3"

kalamullah.com/Arabic/lesson_14.pdf

It labels scale ' مفعلة ' of nouns of instrument as masculine.
Again your comments are appreciated


----------



## clevermizo

I have a question about this gender issue as well: 

In fus7a, are words that end in ـا and ـى (alif maqsuura, not just yaa without dots for our Egyptian friends ) treated as feminine (obviously for feminine names, but also for objects,things - دنيا، مستشفى)? I'm used to treating these as feminine in spoken Arabic, so I just want to make sure I'm treating them correctly in the written language.


----------



## cherine

asadxyz said:


> It labels scale ' مفعلة ' of nouns of instrument as masculine.


I'm sorry, I don't have time right now to check the site, but I'll try to do it as soon as possible.
In the mean time, and according to my humble knowledge, words following the scale maf3ala are feminine.

Speaking of which, there are different "awzaan" for the nouns of instruments/tools:

مِفعال: مفتاح - منشار - مسمار
مِفْعَل: مبرد - مِقَصّ
مِفْعلة: ملعقة - مكنسة - مطرقة​
It can also happen that اسم الآلة doesn't follow any of the previous patterns, such as: سكين - شوكة - شاكوش - قلم - فأس 
- And the مجمع اللغة العربية بالقاهرة aproved another wazn: fa33aala فعالة , hence we have words like: ثلاجة - غسالة - شوّاية 

(source: فؤاد نعمة: ملخَّص قواعد اللغة العربية )


clevermizo said:


> I have a question about this gender issue as well:
> 
> In fus7a, are words that end in ـا and ـى (alif maqsuura, not just yaa without dots for our Egyptian friends ) treated as feminine (obviously for feminine names, but also for objects,things - دنيا، مستشفى)? I'm used to treating these as feminine in spoken Arabic, so I just want to make sure I'm treating them correctly in the written language.


Based on the same book, I'd answer: yes.


علامات التأنيث: للاسم المؤنث ثلاث علامات هي: تاء التأنيث (التاء المربوطة) - ألف التأنيث المقصورة - ألف التأنيث الممدودة​The exception to the words with the alef maqSuura are مصطفى - مستبقى - مَشتى - جَرحى - مَرضى


----------



## asadxyz

Hi 
Can anyone have a look on the following website ;
kalamullah.com/Arabic/lesson_14.pdf
and comment on its 

Principle three
Table named as ""pattern B (medium)"
Thanks in advance.


----------



## WadiH

cherine said:


> The exception to the words with the alef maqSuura are مصطفى - مستبقى - مَشتى - جَرحى - مَرضى



These are not exceptions to the rule. An "alif maqsura" is only a feminine marker when it is _added_ to the 3-consonant root فعلى (fa3laa, which means the same as فعلة, and also fu3laa, which signifies the superlative). In the first three words, the "alif" is part of the root and therefore has nothing to do with gender:

(1) مصطفى is either مفعلل if it's a four-consonant root, or مستفعل where the root is صفى and the ت turned it to a ط due to the phonetic environment. Either way, the alif represents part of the root and is not a feminine marker.

(2) مستشفى is مستفعل which is a masculine form, same with مستبقى (the roots are ب ق ي and ش ف ي). I've never heard مستشفى referred to in the feminine, but it's possible that it occurs as a common error in some countries.

(3) جرحى and مرضى are a form of broken plural, and are therefore always masculine unless it is specifically known that it describes feminine persons, just like any other broken plural.

As for the "taa marboutah", yes it usually signifies femininity, but as cherine said there are exceptions, and not just with personal names like أسامة معاوية قدامة عبادة خفاجة جبلة. Most of these names are quite archaic, which I'm sure could tell linguists something. My understanding of it is that some masculine words that take a "taa marbutah" are صيغ مبالغة ("exaggeration" forms, similar to fa33al, fa3uul, etc.)

Certain professions take a taa marboutah even when referring to the masculine, such as راوية, meaning a man who memorizes and narrates poetry and stories. In Arabia a person who is an expert at guiding people in the desert is called a دليلة or دلولة rather than دليل. Also, someone who proselytizes for Islam is referred to as a داعية, though curiously, those who proselytize for "heretical" sects are referred to with the word داعي.

Finally, sometimes the taa marboutah is dropped from _feminine_ words. For example, a pregnant woman is referred to as حامل rather than حاملة because only a woman could be pregnant. The Arabs also call a nursing woman مرضع, and so on.


----------



## clevermizo

Wadi Hanifa said:


> (1) مصطفى is either مفعلل if it's a four-consonant root, or مستفعل where the root is صفى and the ت turned it to a ط due to the phonetic environment. Either way, the alif represents part of the root and is not a feminine marker.



Is this not also true of مستشفى? Or is that also to be treated as masculine, as مصطفى.


----------



## WadiH

مستشفى is of the pattern مستفعل, which is masculine (see (2), above).


----------



## Josh_

> Finally, sometimes the taa marboutah is dropped from _feminine_ words. For example, a pregnant woman is referred to as حامل rather than حاملة because only a woman could be pregnant. The Arabs also call a nursing woman مرضع, and so on.


I don't know if it is so much that the taa marbuuta is dropped than it is just traditionally not included in words that specifically refer to females (حامل ، حائض ، عانس ، إلخ ).


> My understanding of it is that some masculine words that take a "taa marbutah" are صيغ مبالغة ("exaggeration" forms, similar to fa33al, fa3uul, etc.)


Yes, certain words of the فعال fa33aal (I would transliterate it with two a's representing the alif so as to avoid confusion with فعّل ) pattern can take the taa2 marbuuta to indicate superior achievement -- علامة very learned person, رحالة great traveler.  Ibn Battutah is a raHHaala.

It is my understanding that certain words of the فعول fa3uul and فعيل fa3iil patterns, which include words such as شكور thankful, صبور patient, عجوز elderly person, do not traditionally take the taa2 marbuuta even if they refer to females.  But in common usage the taa2 marbuuta is often added.


----------



## WadiH

Josh_ said:


> Yes, certain words of the فعال fa33aal (I would transliterate it with two a's representing the alif so as to avoid confusion with فعّل ) pattern can take the taa2 marbuuta to indicate superior achievement -- علامة very learned person, رحالة great traveler. Ibn Battutah is a raHHaala.



Well what I meant was that words such as معاوية were "exaggeration forms", but you're right, I forgot to mention the form "fa33alah". I'll add نسّابة (genealogist).


> It is my understanding that certain words of the فعول fa3uul and فعيل fa3iil patterns, which include words such as شكور thankful, صبور patient, عجوز elderly person, do not traditionally take the taa2 marbuuta even if they refer to females. But in common usage the taa2 marbuuta is often added.



Yes where I come from, fa3uul traditonally did not take a "taa marboutah", so a woman would be described as عجوز and صبور, but that's beginning to change with the younger generation. Standing alone, though, the word عجوز still means "old woman".

I don't think the same applies to fa3iil, though, whether in Fus7a or common speech.  fa3iil is masculine and fa3iilah is feminine (عظيمة كبيرة سفيهة, etc.).


----------



## Josh_

I don't mean the فعيل that refers to common adjectives, but فعيل with the original meaning of مفعول l: جريح wounded, قتيل killed, etc.


----------



## WadiH

And those don't take a "taa marboutah" either??


----------



## Josh_

They do not _traditionally_ take the taa2 marbuuta, but in modern usage they do.  If you would like me to cite the sources I will.

In معجم لغة النحو العربي by أنطوان الدحداح under the heading of فَعيل (among other entries) I found this:


وزن الصفة التي تُستعمل للمذكر وللمؤنث بلفظ واحد


And in الكتاب في تعلم العربية part 3 by Mahmoud al-Batal, et.al. they mention that this form does not traditionally take the taa2 marbuuta, but in contemporary usage it often does.


----------



## WadiH

I don't doubt that what you're saying is true, but it would be great to see examples of this from classical poetry or from the Quran. 

I think this feature probably dropped from common speech because it's not always easy to distinguish between the two meanings of fa3iil, for example is مريض an "exaggeration form" or is it along the lines of maf3uul?


----------



## asadxyz

Josh_ said:


> وزن الصفة التي تُستعمل للمذكر وللمؤنث بلفظ واحد


But word مريضة is seen in arabic.
صحيح البخاري - (ج 10 / ص 379)
2898 - حَدَّثَنَا مُوسَى حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَوَانَةَ حَدَّثَنَا عُثْمَانُ بْنُ مَوْهَبٍ عَنْ ابْنِ عُمَرَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمَا قَالَ
إِنَّمَا تَغَيَّبَ عُثْمَانُ عَنْ بَدْرٍ فَإِنَّهُ كَانَتْ تَحْتَهُ بِنْتُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَكَانَتْ *مَرِيضَةً* فَقَالَ لَهُ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ إِنَّ لَكَ أَجْرَ رَجُلٍ مِمَّنْ شَهِدَ بَدْرًا وَسَهْمَهُ


----------



## Abu Bishr

Wadi Hanifa said:


> I don't doubt that what you're saying is true, but it would be great to see examples of this from classical poetry or from the Quran.
> 
> I think this feature probably dropped from common speech because it's not always easy to distinguish between the two meanings of fa3iil, for example is مريض an "exaggeration form" or is it along the lines of maf3uul?


 
إن رحمة الله فريبٌ من المحسنين

لعل الساعة تكون قريباً

والملائكة بعد ذلك ظهير

قال من يحيي العظام وهي رميم

These are examples of فعيل that has the meaning of فاعل rather than مفعول , and it is not often the case that there is disagreement in gender. In the case of فعيل that has the meaning of مفعول , it is known that it does not commonly take the taa' for femininity, only if the mawSuf is not mentioned and the gender cannot be determined from the context is the taa' prefixed.

The above examples have received a great deal in commentary by the grammarians, and I know of an entire treatise that has be written just on the verse: إن رحمة الله قريب من المحسنين in terms of why قريب is masculine and not feminine.

What this shows is that one cannot just use the pattern فعيل that has the meaning of فاعل in the masculine form throughout without due reason. This is the classical position.


----------



## asadxyz




----------

