# [w] in Nordic languages



## Gavril

Are there any Nordic languages/dialects that have a [w] sound (as in English _wood, will, weed _etc.) in their pronunciations?

I’m not just thinking of cases where [w] is preserved in its “historical” position (i.e., where Proto-Germanic would have had _*w, _and where most Germanic languages now have a [v] sound) – there could also be cases of secondary [w], as in American English _talk, chalk _etc. (where we’ve developed a [w]/-sound in place of earlier [l]) as in some British English dialects, where a [w]/ sound has developed in certain words where [l] used to be: _milk _[miuwk], _still _[stiuw], etc.

The only cases I’ve heard of so far in the Nordic languages are

-         Jysk (a dialect of Jutland), which I’ve heard has [w] in place of standard Danish [v]
-         Västerbotten / Norrbotten dialects of Swedish, where earlier *_hw- _has become [w]

Do you know of any other examples?

Ta(c)k(k) / Þakkir


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## NorwegianNYC

[w] is a vowel in Norwegian. The O in 'nord', 'stor', 'om', 'kone' etc is the same sound value as w- in "what" and "where". It is also the same value as in French 'moi' (= mwa) and Loire = (Lwaar). Welsh uses W to represent this sound, as in "gwr" and "cwm"


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## Gavril

NorwegianNYC said:


> [w] is a vowel in Norwegian. The O in 'nord', 'stor', 'om', 'kone' etc is the same sound value as w- in "what" and "where". It is also the same value as in French 'moi' (= mwa) and Loire = (Lwaar). Welsh uses W to represent this sound, as in "gwr" and "cwm"



How would you represent the pronunciation of _nord, stor _etc. in IPA? Would it be [nu:d], [stu:] etc., or similar?

As far as I know, the letter "w" in Welsh words is pronounced , or fairly close to it.


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## NorwegianNYC

Oh, rusty as I am in IPA - _nord_ is [nu:r] and _stor_ is [stu:r], which again is pretty similar to Welsh W, French OI, and English W


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## Dan2

NorwegianNYC said:


> [w] is a vowel in Norwegian. The O in 'nord', 'stor', 'om', 'kone' etc is the same sound value as w- in "what" and "where". It is also the same value as in French 'moi' (= mwa) and Loire = (Lwaar).


I understand what you mean by this, but I think it's an unclear way of stating the facts.  One usually distinguishes between _vowels__, _which can stand alone or form the core of a syllable, and _consonants_, which cannot.  and _, for ex., are vowels, and [w] and [j] are corresponding (glide) consonants.  can stand alone as the Norwegian word "i" or the English letter-name "E".   can stand alone as the common English interjection (as in "Ooh! Look at that!).  [j] and [w], OTOH, must have an accompanying true vowel to form a word or syllable, as in English "yes" and "west" and as in Norwegian "ja".

And you need separate symbols: [swIm] is the English word "swim", while [suIm] is the two-word colloquial Amer Eng phrase "sue 'im!" (= "sue him").

In the above framework, Norwegian "stor" clearly has , not [w].

English has /u/, /w/, /i/, and /j/.  German (for ex.) and Norwegian are usually said to have all these phonemes except /w/.  Gavril's question is: are there dialects within the Nordic language family that have the specific (non-vowel) sound [w], beyond the examples he mentioned._


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## LilianaB

Using w is kind of confusing because w can also stand for a sound similar to V, in German or Polish. Wunderbar, wielki. I am not sure if these are exactly the same sounds but these are no vowels for sure. I know w as in wonder was meant but it is still very confusing. Happy New Year.


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## basslop

I agree with Dan2. The w-sound in English does not exist in Norwegian. 

Observastions/claims:

 People with English mother tongue comment that Norwegians (and probably Scandinavians in general) pronounce W as v when we speak English. It's not that we don't know it or that we can't pronounce it. We are simply not used to the sound. However that problem is constantly diminishing as English is being more and more common here.
Gavril is right though to some extent: Say you ask a Norwegian who does not know English at all: "How would you spell 'well'?". I'm quite sure the person would suggest "oell".


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## Dan2

LilianaB said:


> Using w is kind of confusing because w can also  stand for a sound similar to V, in German or Polish. Wunderbar, wielki.  I am not sure if these are exactly the same sounds but these are no  vowels for sure. I know w as in wonder was meant but it is still very  confusing. Happy New Year.


Happy New Year to you (and everyone).

When we write sound symbols in "square brackets", for ex. [w], (as both Gavril and I did) we are referring not to the spelling conventions of any particular language, but rather to symbols that phoneticians use, in particular the International Phonetic Alphabet ("IPA").  We do this for exactly the reason you mention - to avoid confusion resulting from the fact that different languages use letters in different ways.  So [w] _always_ means the sound in English "we" and _never_ the sound in German "wir" or Polish "wielki"




basslop said:


> Gavril is right though to some extent: Say you ask a Norwegian who does not know English at all: "How would you spell 'well'?". I'm quite sure the person would suggest "oell".


I think you mean "NNYC is right".  And yes, that's why I wrote that [w] is the consonant _corresponding_ to the vowel  (typically spelled "o" in Norwegian). Germans often learn to say the [w] of English "well" (for ex.) by saying "uh-ell" (in German spelling) and then shortening and "consonantizing" the "uh".


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## NorwegianNYC

Hi Dan2 - and happy new years to you all - I agree with you, but W isn't really a consonant. It is a semivowel (approximant). Gavril originally asked if Norwegian had a sound similar to that, I am inclined to say Norwegian does. That is - the difference between W in English and O in Norwegian is that W in English is never a pure vowel, whereas O in Norwegian is only rarely a semivowel.


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## Dan2

NorwegianNYC said:


> I agree with you, but W isn't really a consonant. It is a semivowel (approximant).


Yes, [w] and [j] are often called semivowels (not a good name, I think), approximants, or glides.  I think the most important distinction among sounds is "can form a syllable" (usually called "vowels") and "can't form a syllable"; I tried to make it clear that I was using "consonant" to mean the latter.

In addition, note that in the IPA charts,  and _ are found on the "vowel" chart, while [w] and [j] are found on the "consonant" chart.

All that being said, I do understand your point of view.

It also occurred to me that one's native language might be relevant to how one perceives things like this.  As a native speaker of English, I perceive /u/ and /w/ (and /v/) as simply three unrelated phonemes.  It's only when I "think phonetically" that I see the similarity between  and [w]._


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## BlueSuede

I don't know if I ever use the sound /w/ in my spoken Swedish, but there is a dialect in eastern Östgötland, and perhaps also in middle of Västergötland.

If you ask them to tell you a doglike wild animal, said to be clever, and what color it might be, they will perhaps tell you "De' måste väl va' e' /wöd wäv/". Or, with standard Swedish prononciation, known as a "röd räv" (a red fox).

They use the /w/ sound at words beginning with an "r", and perhaps other places in the word too. I am not very familiar dialect, but in my ears it sounds funny, but for them it sounds perfectly all right.


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## Åvävvla

It also exists in some of the Northern Halland dialects. My grandmother says "winter" for _vinter_ and "Swärje" for _Sverige_. I am not sure about the rules regarding this pronunciation. It's not like every _v_ turns into "w", and I haven't dared asking her since "she doesn't speak dialect", and me implying so is out of the question. 

BlueSuede: Are you referring to "Västgöta-skorrning"? It's similar to an English "w" but not the same sound, if you ask me.


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## TheGist

Gavril said:


> Are there any Nordic languages/dialects that have a [w] sound (as in English _wood, will, weed _etc.) in their pronunciations?
> <...>
> The only cases I’ve heard of so far in the Nordic languages are
> 
> -         Jysk (a dialect of Jutland), which I’ve heard has [w] in place of standard Danish [v]
> <...>



 I'm learning Danish and I've seen that the [w] sound is used quite often in standard Danish and not just in dialects. They use the letter "v" for that sound, but they rarely (if ever?) pronounce it like [v] in words like: bogsta*v* [ˈbɔgsdæ*w*] (ger. Buchstabe, eng. letter), sna*v*set [ˈsnɑ*w*səð] (dirty), so*v*e [ˈsɒ*w*ə] (sleep) etc.

As far as I can tell, the Danish [w] is usually pronounced with less friction than its English counterpart. In the article on Danish phonology in Wikipedia, the symbol [ʊ̯] is used to denote this sound.


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## Sepia

TheGist said:


> I'm learning Danish and I've seen that the [w] sound is used quite often in standard Danish and not just in dialects. They use the letter "v" for that sound, but they rarely (if ever?) pronounce it like [v] in words like: bogsta*v* [ˈbɔgsdæ*w*] (ger. Buchstabe, eng. letter), sna*v*set [ˈsnɑ*w*səð] (dirty), so*v*e [ˈsɒ*w*ə] (sleep) etc.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the Danish [w] is usually pronounced with less friction than its English counterpart. In the article on Danish phonology in Wikipedia, the symbol [ʊ̯] is used to denote this sound.




Good observation - you are right ... on most of the points. For one, I'd count "bogstav" out. You almost bite your lower lip on that one = not "w" but "v"

However, in the beginning of a word you'd probably mainly find it in North- and West-Jutland dialects.


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## BlueSuede

Åvävvla said:


> BlueSuede: Are you referring to "Västgöta-skorrning"? It's similar to an English "w" but not the same sound, if you ask me.



No, the /w/ sound is not a skorrning at all. A friend from Borås was skorring, preferaably at the r's at then beginning of words, not as much ending r's. It doesn't sound like /w/ at all.
Friday at six o'clock in radio P3 they have a funny character who uses the /w/-snund where everyone else use /r/, with or without skorrning. It sounds is like the Östgötska one.


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## Lugubert

NorwegianNYC said:


> Oh, rusty as I am in IPA - _nord_ is [nu:r] and _stor_ is [stu:r], which again is pretty similar to Welsh W, French OI, and English W


Not quite. Nord is [ nuːɖ ]. Welsh w can be long (_drws_) *or* short (_cwm_). The  is, of course similar just to the first part of French OI.



Åvävvla said:


> BlueSuede: Are you referring to "Västgöta-skorrning"? It's similar to an English "w" but not the same sound, if you ask me.


The way I feel when I try to imitate this _skorrning_ is that it isn't [w] but [ɣ]; a velar (or even uvular [ʁ]) fricative.


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## NorwegianNYC

Lugubert said:


> Not quite. Nord is [ nuːɖ ]. Welsh w can be long (_drws_) *or* short (_cwm_). The  is, of course similar just to the first part of French OI.




I believe you are confusing the languages here. In Norwegian, it is [nu:r]


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## Lugubert

Sorry; my nord is indeed Swedish.


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## Magb

Älvdalska has preserved Proto-Germanic _*w_ as /w/, which is kept distinct from /v/.


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