# "καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν"



## aScruffyNerfherder

Hello everyone! I didn't find this on the forum, so I apologize in advance if this has already been answered somewhere here before.

From what I understand the phrase is basically translated as:
"And the light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not."

But given my limited (mostly only medical) understanding of Greek, I was hoping someone could break down how it is pronounced.

And if it isn't too much hassle, I was also hoping someone could redo the text in all Greek caps.


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## sotos

aScruffyNerfherder said:


> "And the light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not."


My english is far from perfect. I hope this "comprehend" here has the  sense of "overcame", because this is the meaning of "κατέλαβεν", to my understanding.

ΚΑΙ ΤΟ ΦΩΣ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΣΚΟΤΙΑ ΦΑΙΝΕΙ ΚΑΙ Η ΣΚΟΤΙΑ ΑΥΤΟ ΟΥ ΚΑΤΕΛΑΒΕΝ.


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## Scholiast

Greetings

It's from the beginning of John's Gospel (1:5), which aScruffyNerfHerder quotes from the AV. It was written (and pronounced) in _koine_ Greek, with an Aramaic accent.

The Greek Orthodox Church still uses the New Testament in its original written form, but with modern Greek pronunciation, which would be something like:

ke to foss en tee skotía fennee, ke ee skotía afto oo katélaven. [accents to show stress, and "to" pronounced like "tot" without the final t]

But if a more "classical" pronunciation is needed, it would be:

kye [rhyme with "sky"] to [as above] fawss en tay skotíaa fine-ay, kye hay skotíaa ow-to [again, "to(t)"] oo katélaben.

@aScruffy...: I surmise that you have been asked to read this at a carol service. Is this the only part of the passage you have to read?

Σ


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## bearded

sotos said:


> I hope this "comprehend" here has the sense of "overcame", because this is the meaning of "κατέλαβεν", to my understanding.


Can it not mean ''accept/receive''? ..._and the darkness did not accept it / et l'obscurité ne l'a pas accueilli._


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## aScruffyNerfherder

sotos said:


> My english is far from perfect. I hope this "comprehend" here has the  sense of "overcame", because this is the meaning of "κατέλαβεν", to my understanding.
> 
> ΚΑΙ ΤΟ ΦΩΣ ΕΝ ΤΗ ΣΚΟΤΙΑ ΦΑΙΝΕΙ ΚΑΙ Η ΣΚΟΤΙΑ ΑΥΤΟ ΟΥ ΚΑΤΕΛΑΒΕΝ.



I appreciate yours and everyone's help! Comprehend means to "understand". I don't know if this definition would function appropriately in the case of "κατέλαβεν". If "accept" is a possible use for "κατέλαβεν" (as in @bearded man's post), then that would work well with the English translation I would think.



Scholiast said:


> Greetings
> 
> It's from the beginning of John's Gospel (1:5), which aScruffyNerfHerder quotes from the AV. It was written (and pronounced) in _koine_ Greek, with an Aramaic accent.
> 
> The Greek Orthodox Church still uses the New Testament in its original written form, but with modern Greek pronunciation, which would be something like:
> 
> ke to foss en tee skotía fennee, ke ee skotía afto oo katélaven. [accents to show stress, and "to" pronounced like "tot" without the final t]
> 
> But if a more "classical" pronunciation is needed, it would be:
> 
> kye [rhyme with "sky"] to [as above] fawss en tay skotíaa fine-ay, kye hay skotíaa ow-to [again, "to(t)"] oo katélaben.
> 
> @aScruffy...: I surmise that you have been asked to read this at a carol service. Is this the only part of the passage you have to read?
> 
> Σ



Thank you very much for the help! It's not for anything religious in nature. It's actually something that has bothered me for years: in the game Fallout: New Vegas, one of the unique weapons has "καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν" engraved on it. While it gives the English translation for it, I have always felt kind of ignorant for not knowing how to actually pronounce it, and all the searches I made gave no results. And there was no way I was going to entrust it to Google translate.


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## bearded

aScruffyNerfherder said:


> If "accept" is a possible use for "κατέλαβεν" (as in @bearded man's post), then that would work well with the English translation I would think.


Among the meanings of the verb 'katalambano', that can be found in dictionaries of Ancient Greek, there are ''seize hold of / make one's own / take over, assume'' : hence my ''accept/receive/_accueillir''._
But Sotos' ''overcome'' is also a possible interpretation that cannot be ruled out, as it suits other spots in the Gospel.

And - by the way : Welcome to the forum, Scruffy !


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## Scholiast

Greetings once more


aScruffyNerfherder said:


> And there was no way I was going to entrust it to Google translate


Quite right!
Σ


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## sotos

I'm not religious either, but understand quite well the Gospel Greek. As I suspected, this κατέλαβεν is open to interpretations. I understood it as "overcame" (that is, the darkness did not overcome the light). Angelos Vlachos (a credible literary man) aggrees with this translation. http://www.greek-language.gr/digita.../anthology/literature/browse.html?text_id=619

Pan. Trembelas, in his  widely used gospel with comments, understands it both metaphorically and literally:  "_The people in the dark did not understand and did not embrace the light, but they were not able to anihilate or overcome it either_."


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## Perseas

aScruffyNerfherder said:


> If "accept" is a possible use for "κατέλαβεν" (as in @bearded man's post), then that would work well with the English translation I would think.


I also think that "κατέλαβεν" means "overtook" here as in the phrase "we were overtaken by darkness/by a storm". The darkness could not conquer the light. With "accept" I don't know how it would work.


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## Αγγελος

Curiously enough, in Modern Greek κατέλαβε can mean both 'took (as of an army taking a city), occupied' and 'understood' (though we normally say κατάλαβε  in the latter sense). The original sense was probably "grabbed from behind". Until now I had never thought it could mean anything but 'overcame' in the Gospel passage quoted above, but it is true that in several cases modern usage can shed light on the meaning of New Testament Greek.


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## bearded

Perseas said:


> With "accept" I don't know how it would work


The interpretation of 'katélaben' as _received _is not my invention, but  has a long tradition. In St.Jerome's _Vulgata _(Latin translation of the Bible) the phrase is rendered as ..._tenebrae eam (i.e. lucem) non comprehenderunt. _This final verb can mean 'to comprehend/receive/accueillir' or 'to understand'.  In many French translations we read ..._mais l'obscurité ne l'a pas accueillie._
The 'hidden' meaning should be: there is a light (JesusChrist) shining in a world of sin (skotìa), but the sinners' heart rejected it / did not receive or accept or understand it.
The ambiguity of the verb 'katalambano' is there on purpose. Like the English verb 'to grip', it can mean 'take hold' (see Aggelos' ''grabbed'') or 'take hold with your mind', i.e. accept/comprehend/receive in your mind/_accueillir._


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## apmoy70

Scholiast said:


> Greetings
> 
> It's from the beginning of John's Gospel (1:5), which aScruffyNerfHerder quotes from the AV. It was written (and pronounced) in _koine_ Greek, with an Aramaic accent.
> 
> The Greek Orthodox Church still uses the New Testament in its original written form, but with modern Greek pronunciation, which would be something like:
> 
> ke to foss en tee skotía fennee, ke ee skotía afto oo katélaven. [accents to show stress, and "to" pronounced like "tot" without the final t]
> 
> But if a more "classical" pronunciation is needed, it would be:
> 
> kye [rhyme with "sky"] to [as above] fawss en tay skotíaa fine-ay, kye hay skotíaa ow-to [again, "to(t)"] oo katélaben.
> 
> @aScruffy...: I surmise that you have been asked to read this at a carol service. Is this the only part of the passage you have to read?
> 
> Σ


The University of Texas at Austin (USA) has produced audio mp3 files of the Greek NT according to the reconstructed 1st c. AD Koine pronunciation of Greek, which is quite interesting. It has also the Vulgate, and a couple of books from the OT Masoretic Hebrew text.


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