# To teach somebody (how) to do something



## Nino83

Hello everybody.

I'd like to ask you which construction the verb "teach" takes.

She taught him (how) to play piano.
1)彼女は彼にピアノを弾くのを教えた。
2)彼女は彼にどうピアノを弾くか教えた。
3)彼女は彼にピアノの仕方を教えた。

A taught B how to do X.
1) A wa B ni *X o suru no o* oshieta
2) A wa B ni *dou X o suru ka* oshieta
3) A wa B ni *X no shikata o* oshieta

Thank you


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## Flaminius

1. A wa B ni VP(adnominal) koto o oshieta.
VP is a verb phrase with necessary nouns in accusative, dative or peripheral cases marked by postpositions.
Teaching in this construction often teaching how VP is important.

2. A wa B ni dō VP(terminative) ka (o) oshieta.
[If you use phonetic transcription, marking long vowels with the macron or caret is advised.  U is just an orthographical means with which we are happily disconnected using Latin script.]   A variation on this construction is:
dō VP(conditional) ba yoi ka (o) 
どうピアノを弾けばよいかを
gloss: how best to play the piano

3. N no shikata o oshieta
You need an action noun for N in this construction.  An example with piano is ungrammatical.

4. B ni AP-kata o oshieta
AP is an adjectival phrase headed by_ -kata_, a bound morpheme that makes a noun meaning how to do something.  In AP, cases are subsumed with the genitive _-no_.  An example is:
piano no hiki-kata o oshieta
ori karano nukedashi-kata o (how to escape from the cage)

5. B ni N o oshieta
piano o oshieta 
The verb oshieru can take a noun for a skill or a subject.  _Piano o oshieta_ is grammatical


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## Nino83

Thank you very much, Flaminius.
So, summarizing:
ピアノを + 弾くのを教える = to teach (sb) to play piano (can I use "の", or does the verb "oshieru" take only "こと" as nominalizer?)
ピアノを + どう弾くか教える = to teach (sb) how to play piano
ピアノを + 教える = to teach (sb) piano, to give (sb) piano lessons
ピアノの + 弾き方を教える = to teach the way to play piano (is 弾き方 the 連用形 of 弾く + 方, in other words the suffix -kata takes the i-form of the verb?).

I don't have macrons in my keyboard so I prefer to write "ou" and "ei" for practical reasons.

Another question: how is it pronounced 弾く, "hajiku" or "hiku"? Wiktionary and Wordreference say "hiku" while google translate says "hajiku".

Thank you again


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## karlalou

We don't say ピアノのしかた[方法・やり方（かた）], but it should be 'ピアノの弾（ひ）き方（かた）'.
Yes, it's 連用形＋方（かた）：　仕方（*しかた*）, 読み方（よみかた）, 書き方（かきかた）, 聞き方（ききかた）, 食べ方（たべかた）, 見方（みかた）, 使い方（つかいかた）, etc.

It's most common to say ピアノを教（おし）える or ピアノの弾き方を教える, but when it comes to how to use this verb, 教える all of your three structures are possible:

・　の[こと]を教える：　
集会室(meeting room)のピアノが使（つか）えるの[こと]を教える (to tell someone that you can use the piano in the meeting room)​
・　どう（やって）＋<verb in the dictionary form>＋（の）か（を）教える：
どう（やって）（それを）使（つか）う（の）か（を）教える [＝それの使い方を教える]
どうやってそこへ行くかを教える [＝そこへの道順（みちじゅん）を教える]​
・　noun+の仕方（しかた）[方法（ほうほう）・やり方（かた）]を教える：
演奏（えんそうplay a musical instrument）の仕方を教える [＝演奏方法を教える]
登録（とうろくregistration or signing up）の仕方を教える [＝登録方法を教える]
人を説得（せっとくpersuade）する方法を教える [＝説得方法を教える]
そのゲーム(game)のやり方を教える​


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## Flaminius

Nino83 said:


> I don't have macrons in my keyboard so I prefer to write "ou" and "ei" for practical reasons.


Press the right-most Omega in the edit box and you will see all five long vowels in the two major notations.  While long E is widely regarded as a dithphing EI, which is still the normative pronunciation, long O is never pronounced OU.



karlalou said:


> の[こと]を教える：
> 集会室(meeting room)のピアノが使（つか）えるの[こと]を教える (to tell someone that you can use the piano in the meeting room)


Besides nominalising heads _-no_ and _-koto_, the quotative_ -to_ can be used for teaching facts.
使えると教える
ピアノを弾くと教える (This would mean the fact that one should play the piano.)


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## Nino83

Flaminius said:


> Press the right-most Omega in the edit box


Ah, ok, I didn't think about it.


Flaminius said:


> Besides nominalising heads _-no_ and _-koto_, the quotative_ -to_ can be used for teaching facts.


As if it were a verb of communication. Interesting.

And what about the verb "to learn"?

ピアノを弾くのを習う
ピアノをどう弾くか習う
ピアノを習う
ピアノの弾き方を習う

Are these sentences right?

Thank you


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## Alkanna

ピアノを習う


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## Flaminius

Nino,
Agian, you cannot use the _-no_-headed noun phrase for _narau_.  (Sorry, quote does not work for some reason.)


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## Nino83

Thank you Flaminius!

And is this possible?  

ピアノの弾き方を習う


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## Alkanna

Grammatically correct, but doesn't work if you simply want to say that you learn, or that somebody learns, to play the piano.
 Given a different context, it could work :
ピアノの弾き方を習っても音楽の心は教わりません。


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## frequency

Alkanna said:


> ピアノを習う



ピアノの弾き方を習う is itself very okay. I guess "ピアノを習う" can include/cover the meaning of "how to play the piano".



Alkanna said:


> ピアノの弾き方を習っても音楽の心は教わりません。


You're doing something similar to comparison here. You say 心, and you want to compare it with something different to your mentality, hence technique: 弾き方.

ピアノを習っても音楽の心は教わりません。 is enough understandable, but yours can more clearly convey what you want to say.


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## Nino83

Are there other verbs that take _no/koto_ noun clauses?

For example: ピアノを弾くのを学ぶ

What is the difference between 習う and 学ぶ?


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## karlalou

We say
子ども（こどもchild）に指で数える（ゆびでかぞえるcount with your fingers）のを教える
子どもが指で数えるのを覚えた（おぼえたlearned）

We would say
モーツァルトが後ろ向き（うしろむきsitting backward）でピアノを弾くのを教えてくれた
モーツァルトから後ろ向きでピアノを弾くのを習った
モーツァルトから後ろ向きでピアノを弾くのを学んだ
モーツァルトから後ろ向きでピアノを弾くのを教わった

It's just we don't need to make it longer or say it different way when we are so used to say ピアノを教える／習う.

学ぶ is.. I would say 音楽を学ぶ. 弾き方を学ぶ is fine. 学ぶ is not very much an everyday word.


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## Flaminius

*Karlalou*'s examples to me sound all odd.  They may not be so odd as to term them ungrammatical, but I wouldn't consciously use this construction.  In fact, the Shonagon Corpus lists just two instances of _-no_-headed noun phrase for _oshieru_ (among those retrieved by searching for のを教える);
自殺予防の活動をすることは、死にたいと思っている若者に、ほかに選択できる道がある    のを教える    ことだ。
幅１５センチのところを歩く    のを教える    むずかしさ

while _-koto_-headed noun phrases for _oshieru_ (among those retrieved by searching for ことを教える) are many.

I am not sure how this is related but I realise the above two examples use _oshieru_ in the subordinate clause, not as the main verb.


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## karlalou

Well, I say and hear all the time, ちょっとこれやるのやっといて、これやるの教えて、これやるの手伝って, etc.. I believe we would say では、私が新人(new member)にこれやるのを教えますね.


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## Nino83

So 教える is more likely to take こと clauses.
What about 学ぶ? Does it take こと or の clauses?  

For example, if I want to say "he learned to drive a car" how can I translate it?


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## 810senior

I'd translate it to 車の運転を習った。(lit. I learned the car's driving). I guess there's no need to put in koto or no clause there.


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## Nino83

810senior said:


> 車の運転を習った。


Thank you, 810 senior.  
I find it difficult because every time one wants to say he learned to do something one has to know the noun of that specific activity.  

Thank you all for your help!


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## frequency

Nino83 said:


> ピアノを弾くのを学ぶ。


Nino, as 810 did, you can say ピアノを学ぶ・習う。 This is because it semantically means _I learn how to play the piano_.
Do you eat the piano? Do you ship out the piano? No. In general, for all of us, you would play it if there's a piano.

Do you want to be a piano repairman? You'd have to say:
_I learn how to fix the piano_ and _I learn how to disassemble the piano_.
ピアノの直し方を学ぶ・ピアノの分解の仕方を学ぶ。
Are you a historian? You'd say: ピアノの歴史を学ぶ。

They are different to the case of your piano play, so you need a different way.

And compare these, they could explain the differences:
たばこの吸い方を教える
たばこを吸うことを教える
Instruct how to smoke a cigarette vs instruct/advise smoking.


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## Nino83

frequency said:


> ピアノの直し方を学ぶ・ピアノの分解の仕方を学ぶ。


Thank you for these examples, frequency.


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## karlalou

I've found these on the Google:

学校で自発的にものを考えるのを教えるのは難しい。
小さい子に鼻をかむのを教える方法
上手に作品を作るのを教える場ではなく、
少しずつ寒くなるのを教えるかのように


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## Flaminius

*Karlalou*, please source your quotes with separate URLs.  Anyway, three of them use oshieru in the subordinate clause and the last sentence is about teaching the fact of winter approaching, not teaching winter how to approach.


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## karlalou

Isn't the link I've made not enough for you?


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## Flaminius

Search engine results are not the same for everyone.  Websites may move or disappear.  Separate URLs would help those who want to check the context of your quote.


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## karlalou

I've already shown the four examples from the Google written down here for you. I believe you can do the rest by yourself if you need. It's not that you have to see exactly the same thing as I've seen. Any example would do.


の has a role, as shown at the bottom of the linked page, to make a verbal phrase into a noun.
As shown there, one example is 読むのが速い.

It's just unthinkable that there's some customary that （する）のを教える doesn't work, while （する）ことを教える is acceptable.

お姉ちゃんが妹にドレミを弾くのを教えた
うちの子がドレミを弾くのを覚えた
先輩からタバコを飲むのを教わった
誰かがピアノを弾いているのを聞いていた
鳥が飛んで行くのを見ていた
All are totally natural to me, and I prefer の over こと at least for these examples.

Though these こと and の are not always interchangeable, when it is so こと just tends to sound a little more rigid, and の might be more for spoken words, but not necessarily.


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## Flaminius

A URL to Google is not how you show the sources of your quotes.  That some texts are retrieved by a search engine does not make it the source of the texts.  Yes, others may be able to locate the quotes but the effort is best made by the original quoter.

I still don't know how I find のを教える odd but statistics partly judtifies my impression.  There are far more Google hits for "弾くことを教え" than for "弾くのを教え", ditto Aozora Bunko searches for "ことを教え" and "のを教え".

While many examples of のを教える are grammatical, there are instances where replacing ことを教える with のを教える is very odd to the extent of being ungrammatical:
分かりやすく話すことを教えてもらった is OK while ...話すのを教えてもらった is more odd than 自発的にものを考えるのを教える (in Karlalou #21);
漢字の書き順にこだわることを教えこまれた is OK while ...こだわるのを教えこまれた is very odd.

There may be more cases like these.

For practical advice for learners, I recommend using ことを教える and watching out for cases where のを教える is used.


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## Nino83

Thank you all for this interesting discussion! 
The "problem", I think, is that there is no English-Japanese dictionary that tells us (to us, foreign speakers) which "subordinator" the verb takes.
For example, English dictionaries say if a verb takes a "that clause", an "-ing clause" or an "infinitive clause".
Seeing that Japanese has two different subordinators for "noun clauses" (plus "to" for quotations), I think it could be better for a dictionary to say which is the best choice for each verb.


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