# Hindi/Urdu and Punjabi: disgust, aversion



## panjabigator

Hi there,

I am sure we could probably write a dictionary with the myriad of words for "disgust" or "aversion," so I'll do my best to limit my question.  The Punjabi word for disgust - though I'm sure there are many more - is "ghin" (گھن/ घिण - since so few people read Gurmukhi on this forum, I'll limit myself to Nastaliq and Devanagari).  Could anyone confirm if this word is used in Hindi and Urdu?  

Here is the Platts entry:


> P گهنانا घिणाना ghiṇānā, or घिनाना ghinānā = H گهناونا घिणावना ghiṇāʼonā,or घिनावना ghināʼonā [ghinā˚ or ghināw˚ ==Prk. घिणावे(इ)=S. घृणा + आपि, caus. aug.], v.n. To be disgusted (with, -se), &c. (see ghiṇ khānā);—adj. (f. -ī), Disgusting; nauseating; abominable, detestable, hateful, loathsome; obnoxious; ill-favoured:—ghināʼonā karnā (-ko), To make (one) an object of disgust, or loathing, &c.



Unfortunately, I don't have the abbreviation list to check what P means here - I would normally assume Persian, but it seems odd that an aspirated "gh" would come from such an etymology.  The P must be a mistake (I think the abbreviation for Punjabi is different anyway).

Shabdkosh suggested घृणा, which I have never encountered.  Perhaps the Punjabiphones who were speaking said "ghin".  

Platts also suggested تنفر, which we briefly discussed in this thread a long time ago.

edit: Urdu: dil bardaashtagī.  Hindi: द्वेष.  How do these sound?


----------



## Birdcall

As far as I have heard, ghriNaa means anger, and as I said in another thread I have only heard dwesh in the term rang-dwesh means means racism.

What about ranj?


----------



## panjabigator

Birdcall said:


> As far as I have heard, ghriNaa means anger, and as I said in another thread I have only heard dwesh in the term rang-dwesh means means racism.
> 
> What about ranj?



Ranj is grief, I believe.  There is also the word <ranjish>, but I don't know if these words are poetic or used in common parlance.


----------



## Birdcall

Come to think of it, ghinaunaa means disgusting, and it looks like it comes from ghin/ghriNaa


----------



## lcfatima

I have heard ghin used by Hindi and Urdu speakers, as in :mujhe ghin aa rahi hai, mujhe ghin aa gayi, etc.

I didn't realize it was a retroflex N, I had not perceived it to be articulated as so by the speakers.


----------



## Faylasoof

Yes, in everyday Urdu we do indeed use _ghin _گھن!

گھن آنا  _ghin aanaa_ = to be disgusted.
گھنو نا _ghinaunaa_ = disgusting, revolting. 
گھنو نا ہونا_ghinaunaa honaa_ = to be disgusting 

[Urdu also has ملچھ  _malichh_ = lowly, dirty, disgusting – _used rarely now_.]


تنفر_ tanaffur_ can also be used. In fact it has uses in compounds too, e.g. in this, current thread apart from the earlier thread that PG mentions above.

دل برداشتہ_ dil bardaashtah_ = aversion / dissatisfaction / indifference (to); disgust (with).




panjabigator said:


> Ranj is grief, I believe.  There is also the word <ranjish>, but I don't know if these words are poetic or used in common parlance.


 PG,
 Both < رنج_ ranj_> and < رنجش_ ranjish_> are used in daily Urdu speech though the former is used a bit more. Both are from Farsi, btw.

رنج_ ranj_ =  grief, sorrow, sadness etc.

رنجش_ ranjish_ =  grief; unpleasantness; indignation.

... _and you are right! The <P> in Platts for __گهنانا घिणाना ghiṇānā  is a mistake! It is not from Persian / Farsi!! _


----------



## Birdcall

Faylasoof,

I don't think ghin is used in common Hindi, and I couldn't find it in two dictionaries I tried. Maybe it was originally a Panjabi word.

You mentioned malicch. Maybe that's related to mlecch(a), a Sanskrit word used to describe foreigners, in a very insulting way? It was apparently used to describe Mesopotamian traders who came to the Indus Valley, as well as Dravidians. It's suggested that the word was borrowed into Sanskrit and wasn't originally Indo-Iranian, because of its structure.


----------



## Faylasoof

Birdcall,
 You may well be right! I too assumed ملچھ _malichh_ to be of foreign origin as I haven't find an Indic root, so far!! 

To be honest I’m still not sure of its etymology and didn’t know it was used _for_ foreigners / Mesopotamian traders etc!  

 In Urdu we definitely have no such connotation. For us it means: disgusting, lowly, unclean, inferior, wild (_junglii / ujaT_), one who doesn’t know good from bad / right from wrong etc. But often we use it to just mean _disgusting_, _despicable _etc.

 As for _ghin_ گهن घिण, it may be absent from your two dictionaries but I’ve always assumed it would still be used at least by some. We definitely use it in Urdu quite a lot. Its origin is Prakrit & Sanskrit - according to Platts:

  H گهن  घिण _ghiṇ_, or घिन _ghin_ [Prk. घिणा; S. घृणा], s.f. Dislike, aversion, hatred, abhorrence; nausea;—reproach, blame, censure;—bashfulness, shame;—tenderness, pity, compassion;—_*ghin ānā (-se), To be disgusted (with or at); to feel nausea*_:—_ghin denā_ (-_ko_), To reproach; to abash:—_*ghin-karnā (-se or -par?), To have an aversion (for), to dislike, hate:—ghin khānā (-se), To be disgusted (with); to suffer nausea (from), be nauseated, or have the stomach turned (by).

*(My bold __italics!)_


----------



## panjabigator

I know no Sanskrit, but Faylasoof, your word resembles <mlechha>, which I believe was used (pejoratively) to describe non-Sanskrit speakers.  Not too sure of the exact time period.

I think it means dirty or unclean.  I can consult with some friends and return with a more informed answer.

Also, in reference to <ranj>:  Would you say <dukh> is more common in daily parlance?


----------



## Birdcall

dukh/duhukh means sadness.  Faylasoof, doesn't kamiinaa, a common word in Hindi and I assume in Urdu too, mean lowly/inferior? (I'm guessing this b/c kam means less). In Hindi there is the word niich meaning lowly, but kamiinaa is more colloquial.


----------



## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> I know no Sanskrit, but Faylasoof, your word resembles <mlechha>, which I believe was used (pejoratively) to describe non-Sanskrit speakers.  Not too sure of the exact time period.
> 
> I think it means dirty or unclean.  I can consult with some friends and return with a more informed answer.
> 
> Also, in reference to <ranj>:  Would you say <dukh> is more common in daily parlance?


Neither do I, as yet! 

You may well be right about this PG! Could you please get more info on all this. 

Actually we use both all the time. I think most Hindiphones do prefer _dukh_, not least perhaps because it goes with _sukh_! Urduphones also use _sukh_, plus a few other synonyms.




Birdcall said:


> dukh/duhukh means sadness.  Faylasoof, doesn't  kamiinaa, a common word in Hindi and I assume in Urdu too, mean  lowly/inferior? (I'm guessing this b/c kam means less). In Hindi there  is the word niich meaning lowly, but kamiinaa is more  colloquial.



Birdcalll,
_kamiinah_ کَمِینَہ is from Urdu and we took it from Farsi (where it is used with a different meaning). But yes, it means: low, mean, ignoble, abject, base etc., and you are correct it is commonly used.

 We also use _niich_, usually in compounds like _niich zaat_ = a lowly, ignoble person.


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

*ghin* is definitely an Urdu word but I think it is unfortunately becoming more confined to the written language, I mean to say it is less and less used by the young generation in spoken, although it is understood by all Urdu speakers.

The adjective *ghinaaonaa* is still very common though.

One of the most common expressions you will come across to express aversion is *zeher lagnaa*.....

*Yeh mujhe* *zeher lagtaa hai*.


----------



## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> *
> ghin* is definitely an Urdu word but I think it is unfortunately becoming more confined to the written language, I mean to say it is less and less used by the young generation in spoken, although it is understood by all Urdu speakers.
> 
> The adjective *ghinaaonaa* is still very common though.
> 
> One of the most common expressions you will come across to express aversion is *zeher lagnaa*.....
> 
> *Yeh mujhe*  *zeher lagtaa hai*.


Cilqui, 
This is part of a bigger problem facing us in South Asia generally. The younger generation is either unaware of a word or do not use it in daily speech. Both Pakistan and India have seen the ever-growing trend of the use of "Urdlish" (mix of Urdu and English) or "Hinglish" (Hindi-English mix), which is eroding even basic vocabulary of the vernacular!

This is interesting! In fact, it is rather new to me as we never used it when I was in there in Pk! Have you found this only in Lahore  / Punjab ( I thought you were staying there) or is it now all over the country?


----------



## linguist786

For 'disgust', I say 'karaahat' in Urdu.


----------



## Faylasoof

Yes, this is yet another synonym Urdu uses. We have many!  کراہت

_karaahat_  is from the Arabic root ک-ر-ہ and means < dislike, disgust, aversion,loathing, abhorrence etc  /  نفرت ، بیزاری ، گھن >.

Used like this: 
_kisii chiiz se karaahat hona_  = to find something disgusting.


----------



## panjabigator

Faylasoof said:


> Neither do I, as yet!
> 
> You may well be right about this PG! Could you please get more info on all this.
> 
> Actually we use both all the time. I think most Hindiphones do prefer _dukh_, not least perhaps because it goes with _sukh_! Urduphones also use _sukh_, plus a few other synonyms.
> 
> 
> 
> Birdcalll,
> _kamiinah_ کَمِینَہ is from Urdu and we took it from Farsi (where it is used with a different meaning). But yes, it means: low, mean, ignoble, abject, base etc., and you are correct it is commonly used.
> 
> We also use _niich_, usually in compounds like _niich zaat_ = a lowly, ignoble person.



Hi FLS,

I just emailed my friend, so I'll know shortly.  Wondering now if  میل/मैल is at all a derivative of this, but since I'm getting off topic, I'll stop now.  I'll open a new thread in a bit to address this query.

edit: here's the answer!



Cilquiestsuens said:


> *ghin* is definitely an Urdu word but I think it is unfortunately becoming more confined to the written language, I mean to say it is less and less used by the young generation in spoken, although it is understood by all Urdu speakers.
> 
> The adjective *ghinaaonaa* is still very common though.
> 
> One of the most common expressions you will come across to express aversion is *zeher lagnaa*.....
> 
> *Yeh mujhe* *zeher lagtaa hai*.



I too am curious to know where you've heard this word.  Also, is *ghinaaonaa*  used by Punjabiphones as well?



linguist786 said:


> For 'disgust', I say 'karaahat' in Urdu.



Great word - thanks for this!


----------



## BP.

_karaahat_, as l786 mentioned, is the word that most fits. What's more, it is also a legal word, forming the basis for many arguments used in the annulation of matrimony.


----------



## Faylasoof

panjabigator said:


> Hi FLS,
> 
> I just emailed my friend, so I'll know shortly.  ....
> 
> edit: here's the answer!



Thanks PG for the link! Good dictionary!



BelligerentPacifist said:


> _karaahat_, as l786 mentioned, is the word that most fits. What's more, it is also a legal word, forming the basis for many arguments used in the annulation of matrimony.



Given the richness of Urdu vocabulary I beg to differ! 

We use _*karaahat, ghin, tanaffur *_etc. all the time. Of course it does depend on many factors which one we use when. As usual, the context matters.


----------



## BP.

I avoided suggesting _tanaffur_. English usually translates _nafrat _into hate, which is stronger than what we generally mean by it, and then _tanaffur _could be understood by some people as cultivation of hatred.


----------



## akak

The only time I've heard malichch is in conversations about how it was used for Muslims in a very derogatory way. But never to actually describe anything. 



Faylasoof said:


> Birdcall,
> You may well be right! I too assumed ملچھ _malichh_ to be of foreign origin as I haven't find an Indic root, so far!!
> 
> To be honest I’m still not sure of its etymology and didn’t know it was used _for_ foreigners / Mesopotamian traders etc!
> 
> In Urdu we definitely have no such connotation. For us it means: disgusting, lowly, unclean, inferior, wild (_junglii / ujaT_), one who doesn’t know good from bad / right from wrong etc. But often we use it to just mean _disgusting_, _despicable _etc.


----------



## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> I avoided suggesting _tanaffur_. English usually translates _nafrat  _into hate, which is stronger than what we generally mean by it, and  then _tanaffur _could be understood by some people as cultivation  of hatred.



I see what you mean but as you may know, _tanaffur_ and _nafrat _are not the same! I think it is  important for learners to distinguish between the two that is why I feel  we should include_ tanaffur_ here.



akak said:


> The only time I've heard malichch is in conversations about how it was used for Muslims in a very derogatory way. But never to actually describe anything.


Akak,
I assume this was a much earlier usage because in standard Urdu lexicons the meanings are not suggesting this at all. Only some rather old ones mention this point. 

Anyway, it was used in Lakhnavii Urdu as a general term for <disgusting; uncouth etc. _person_, e.g. _<gandaa malichh!_ > I heard this from my elders when we as children did something disgusting. 

So it was used without any ethnic, communal connections. But I have to say that was Lakhnavii usage of the older generation and the word is hardly heard now. Still it is good to know. Thanks!


----------



## Birdcall

Speaking of Malicch/mlecch, I read that the word mlechh was used by the Rajput kingdoms of Gujarat/Rajasthan to describe the Arab invaders in the 700's.


----------



## akak

Faylasoof said:


> Akak,
> I assume this was a much earlier usage because in standard Urdu lexicons the meanings are not suggesting this at all. Only some rather old ones mention this point.
> 
> Anyway, it was used in Lakhnavii Urdu as a general term for <disgusting; uncouth etc. _person_, e.g. _<gandaa malichh!_ > I heard this from my elders when we as children did something disgusting.
> 
> So it was used without any ethnic, communal connections. But I have to say that was Lakhnavii usage of the older generation and the word is hardly heard now. Still it is good to know. Thanks!


 
Maybe, but I can't remember my elders (also from Lucknow/east U.P.) ever using it, but it could be because most of them moved to Bombay in the 1940s. I do remember blanching when my nani described someone as 'niri bhangi'


----------



## Faylasoof

akak said:


> Maybe, but I can't remember my elders (also from Lucknow/east U.P.) ever using it, but it could be because most of them moved to Bombay in the 1940s. I do remember blanching when my nani described someone as 'niri bhangi'



As I said earlier, the word is hardly heard these days. However, it’ll be best to avoid using _malichh_ given that some would find it offensive! Shouldn't be a problem as most don't even know it.


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Interesting discussion here.

To come back to the question you asked me earlier about *zeher lagtaa hai*, I'd say it belongs to the standard Urdu spoken in PK now. I don't think it comes from Punjabi, I would link it to an internal evolution of the language. Maybe it's a line taken from a modern Poet (Faiz, Faraz / Saghar and all the many others)... If you want to hear this expression used all the time, then watch TV series on PK channels... (PTV, Hum TV for good ones, Geo TV for the other ones)


----------



## panjabigator

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Interesting discussion here.
> 
> To come back to the question you asked me earlier about *zeher lagtaa hai*, I'd say it belongs to the standard Urdu spoken in PK now. I don't think it comes from Punjabi, I would link it to an internal evolution of the language. Maybe it's a line taken from a modern Poet (Faiz, Faraz / Saghar and all the many others)... If you want to hear this expression used all the time, then watch TV series on PK channels... (PTV, Hum TV for good ones, Geo TV for the other ones)



Is this like saying "it seems poisonous?"

Perhaps you can answer this Cilqui: Hindko and, I believe, Pothohari use the verb <ghiṇa> to mean <lainā> - does this create any confusion?  I am wondering what these speakers might use.


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

panjabigator said:


> Is this like saying "it seems poisonous?"
> 
> Perhaps you can answer this Cilqui: Hindko and, I believe, Pothohari use the verb <ghiṇa> to mean <lainā> - does this create any confusion? I am wondering what these speakers might use.


 
Rather than it seems poisonous I'd translate it by : It's like poison to me (= no way I can like it, I hate it). 

*Aapke hindustaani dost ka yeh she'r mujhe to zeher lagtaa hai* I hate this verse / poem of your Indian friend.

As for your other question I'm not living in the Potohari / Hindko speaking world... No idea... (I know just a few sentences of Potohari, that's it!).


----------



## Faylasoof

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Interesting discussion here.
> 
> To come back to the question you asked me earlier about *zeher lagtaa hai*, I'd say it belongs to the standard Urdu spoken in PK now. I don't think it comes from Punjabi, I would link it to an internal evolution of the language. Maybe it's a line taken from a modern Poet (Faiz, Faraz / Saghar and all the many others)... If you want to hear this expression used all the time, then watch TV series on PK channels... (PTV, Hum TV for good ones, Geo TV for the other ones)



What I can tell you that this kind of expression in the standard Urdu I’m familiar with would be:  *yeh mere liye zahr hai*یہ میرے لیے زہر ہے_  = this is poison to me!_

The idea of extreme aversion is intended.

The use of *lagtaa hai* is what made me ask about the influence of Punjab because this is one of those expressions I remember hearing from my Punjabi friends in PK. 



Cilquiestsuens said:


> Rather than it seems poisonous I'd translate it by : It's like poison to me (= no way I can like it, I hate it).
> 
> *aapke hindustaani dost ka yeh she'r mujhe to zeher lagtaa hai* I hate this verse / poem of your Indian friend.


 
In the light of what I say above, this is how we would say it:

*aapke hindustaani dost ka yeh she'r to mere liye zeher / zehriilah hai*

_I have deep aversion to this verse of your Indian friend_


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Faylas, as I've told you I have no idea where this expression comes from..... Now I can tell you that this is pretty much standard Urdu here (Karachi included).... yes, I don't exclude its Punjabi origin, let me do some research about it...


----------



## panjabigator

An updates on the زھریلہ debate?

I discovered two more Hindi words: घृणित and घृणास्पद.  I believe the translate to 'loathsome'.


----------



## drkpp

panjabigator said:


> An updates on the زھریلہ debate?
> 
> I discovered two more Hindi words: घृणित and घृणास्पद.  I believe the translate to 'loathsome'.


घृणा in Sanskrit means contempt, aversion, disgust. घृणास्पद is a compound word made of घृणा + आस्पद 
which means place or subject so घृणास्पद literally translates to place/subject of contempt/disgust.


----------



## panjabigator

Cilquiestsuens said:


> Interesting discussion here.
> 
> To come back to the question you asked me earlier about *zeher lagtaa hai*, I'd say it belongs to the standard Urdu spoken in PK now. I don't think it comes from Punjabi, I would link it to an internal evolution of the language. Maybe it's a line taken from a modern Poet (Faiz, Faraz / Saghar and all the many others)... If you want to hear this expression used all the time, then watch TV series on PK channels... (PTV, Hum TV for good ones, Geo TV for the other ones)



Cilqui, I just heard this in a Punjabi film from Pakistan today: ایہ مینوں زھر لگدا اے۔ Never heard it in Indian Punjabi, though. I'll pay more attention.


----------



## Jashn

Regarding the earlier mention of 'dvesh', I believe this is actually a technical term in philosophy as opposed to a colloquial word.  It's usually used in Sanskrit in the phrase, 'raag-dwesh' to describe the dichotomy of the senses (those things we're attracted to vs. those things we're disgusted by/hold an aversion to) which must be transcended to attain liberation/moksh. Since there seems to be a Sanskrit scholar here, perhaps s/he can confirm/correct.


----------



## drkpp

In Sanskrit, the root verb is द्विष् 2nd conjugation Ubhayapada meaning to hate or dislike
द्वेष is a noun derived from it meaning a hatred or dislike.


----------



## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Cilqui,
> This is part of a bigger problem facing us in South Asia generally. The younger generation is either unaware of a word or do not use it in daily speech. Both Pakistan and India have seen the ever-growing trend of the use of "Urdlish" (mix of Urdu and English) or "Hinglish" (Hindi-English mix), which is eroding even basic vocabulary of the vernacular!
> 
> This is interesting! In fact, it is rather new to me as we never used it when I was in there in Pk! Have you found this only in Lahore  / Punjab ( I thought you were staying there) or is it now all over the country?



*We know that Mirza Ghalib travelled to Calcutta. As for Punjab, to the best of my knowledge he did not make a journey there.

*زهر لگتی هے مجهے آب و هواۓ زندگی 
یعنی تجهھ سے تهی اسے نا ساز گاری هاے هاے


----------



## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> Cilqui, I just heard this in a Punjabi film from Pakistan today: ایہ مینوں زھر لگدا اے۔ Never heard it in Indian Punjabi, though. I'll pay more attention.



zahr lagnaa, as used by Platts.

_zahr lagnā_ (-_ko_), To be regarded as poison, to be hateful (to):

As used by Ghalib:

زهر لگتی هے مجهے آب و هواۓ زندگی 
یعنی تجهھ سے تهی اسے نا ساز گاری هاے هاے

It is certainly used in Punjabi, PG Jii. In more TheTh Punjabi, one hears..

او مینوں موهرے هار لگدا  اے

where mauhraa =zahr


----------



## Cilquiestsuens

Thanks Qureshpor Sahab for this interesting insight ! That too with a very delightful quote from Ghalib ! Hats off!!!


----------



## panjabigator

Thanks Cilqui and Qureshpor Sahib!

Have you ever heard "bis" for "poison" in such a context?

Also, doesn't "mauhraa" also mean "pawn?"


----------



## Qureshpor

panjabigator said:


> Thanks Cilqui and Qureshpor Sahib!
> 
> Have you ever heard "bis" for "poison" in such a context?
> 
> Also, doesn't "mauhraa" also mean "pawn?"



That is muhrah (Arabic)..miim+pesh, not miim+zabar+vaa'o for the dipthong mauhraa (Punjabi).

vis is used in Punjabi for snake and scorpion related poisons, the non-consumption type!


----------



## drkpp

The original word in Sanskrit is wish [विष].


----------



## panjabigator

Thanks Qureshpor Sahib and Drkpp (I've seen विष in Hindi as well).


----------



## amiramir

Just a question please on context:

Would the following be correct at all for ghinauna in everyday language?

I find ants disgusting: Mujhe lagta hai (or mere liye?) chiintiyaaN ghinauni hoti haiN. 
Kati rolls with egg are disgusting: Ande vale kaaThi rolls ghinaune hote haiN?
She finds the thought of marrying off her 12 year old daughter disgusting: Apni 12 saal ki betii ki shaadi karaanaa usko ghinauna lagta hai 

I ask, because I was googling ghinauna in Hindi and seeing it more used like in the 3rd example above: more an ideological abhorrence rather than a visceral aversion -- but maybe my sample size wasn't big enough. 

Thank you.


----------



## Happu

Birdcall said:


> You mentioned malicch. Maybe that's related to mlecch(a), a Sanskrit word used to describe foreigners, in a very insulting way? It was apparently used to describe Mesopotamian traders who came to the Indus Valley, as well as Dravidians. It's suggested that the word was borrowed into Sanskrit and wasn't originally Indo-Iranian, because of its structure.



The origin of _*mleccha*_ seems obscure. In the Vedic period, the word *मृध्रवाच* (_*mRdhravaaca*_) was used, 'people with careless / loose speech', denoting hostile or uncivilized outsiders. Could _*mleccha*_ have led to_ *mRdhravaaca*?_ Or the other way round? Maybe that's too long a stretch.

Another word was *anaasa* = snub-nosed.


----------



## littlepond

Birdcall said:


> I don't think ghin is used in common Hindi



"ghin" is an extremely heavily used word in Hindi!

"maiN vahaaN laiTriin nahiiN jaa paauuNgii, mujhe ghin aa rahii hai."



amiramir said:


> I find ants disgusting: Mujhe lagta hai (or mere liye?) chiintiyaaN ghinauni hoti haiN.


Rather, "mujhe chiiNTiyaaN ghinaunii lagtii haiN." However, _ghinaunaa_ in such a context is very strong. A Hindi speaker is likely to say something on the lines of "mujhe chiiNTiyoN se chiRh hai" or (milder) "mujhe chiiNTiyaaN achchhii nahiiN lagtiiN."



amiramir said:


> Kati rolls with egg are disgusting: Ande vale kaaThi rolls ghinaune hote haiN?


Again, to use _ghinaunaa_ is a bit strong here.



amiramir said:


> She finds the thought of marrying off her 12 year old daughter disgusting: Apni 12 saal ki betii ki shaadi karaanaa usko ghinauna lagta hai


I wouldn't use ghinaunaa here, though it _can_ be used. I would use "ghrNRaaspad" or simply recast the sentence in a wholly different fashion.



amiramir said:


> I ask, because I was googling ghinauna in Hindi and seeing it more used like in the 3rd example above: more an ideological abhorrence rather than a visceral aversion -- but maybe my sample size wasn't big enough.



"ghinaunaa" is used a lot, rather, for actions and thoughts. "ghinaunii harkat, kartoot," "ghinaunaa kaam," "ghinaunaa khel," "ghinaunii soch," "ghinaunii tehzeeb." One could, of course, also say "ghinaune log."

Apologies, @amiramir jii, for only noticing the thread today.


----------



## aevynn

littlepond said:


> "ghin" is an extremely heavily used word in Hindi!





littlepond said:


> "ghinaunaa" is used a lot, rather, for actions and thoughts. "ghinaunii harkat, kartoot," "ghinaunaa kaam," "ghinaunaa khel," "ghinaunii soch," "ghinaunii tehzeeb." One could, of course, also say "ghinaune log."






amiramir said:


> I ask, because I was googling ghinauna in Hindi and seeing it more used like in the 3rd example above: more an ideological abhorrence rather than a visceral aversion -- but maybe my sample size wasn't big enough.





littlepond said:


> Rather, "mujhe chiiNTiyaaN ghinaunii lagtii haiN." However, _ghinaunaa_ in such a context is very strong.





littlepond said:


> amiramir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kati rolls with egg are disgusting: Ande vale kaaThi rolls ghinaune hote haiN?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, to use _ghinaunaa_ is a bit strong here.
Click to expand...

 I tend to agree that _ghinaunaa_ feels closer in intensity to English "abhorrent" rather than merely "disgusting." But, interestingly (and in spite of the etymological connection), _ghin aanaa_ doesn't feel so intense to me. In particular, _mujhe chiiNTiyoN se ghin aatii hai_ seems like a reasonably natural way of expressing the kind of visceral disgust one might feel towards icky creatures.



amiramir said:


> She finds the thought of marrying off her 12 year old daughter disgusting: Apni 12 saal ki betii ki shaadi karaanaa usko ghinauna lagta hai





littlepond said:


> I wouldn't use ghinaunaa here, though it _can_ be used. I would use "ghrNaaspad" or simply recast the sentence in a wholly different fashion.


Perhaps the choice of word _ghinaunaa_ isn't as much of a problem in @amiramir's proposed UH translation as much as just the clipped-ness of the sentence? After all, the proposed translation just says something like "She finds marrying off her 12 year old daughter disgusting/abhorrent," which doesn't sound quite right in English either. If the translation had instead been _apnii baarah saal kii bachchii kii shaadii kar dene kaa xayaal usko ghinaunaa lagtaa hai_, that would probably have sounded okay...?



Happu said:


> Could _*mleccha*_ have led to_ *mRdhravaaca*?_ Or the other way round? Maybe that's too long a stretch.


Seems like too long a stretch to me. मृध्रवाच् is evidently a two-morpheme bahuvrīhi:


			
				Monier-WIlliams said:
			
		

> *मृध्र* n. contempt or one who contemns or injures, adversary, foe...
> *वाच्* f. speech, voice, talk, language (also of animals), sound...
> *मृध्र—वाच्* mfn. speaking injuriously or contumeliously, insulting...


Here's what Wiktionary has to say about the etymology of म्लेच्छ:


			
				Wiktionary said:
			
		

> Thought to be from a substrate language. Possibly related to Akkadian _𒈨𒈛𒄩𒆠_ (Me-luḫ-ḫa)


----------



## littlepond

aevynn said:


> _ghin aanaa_ doesn't feel so intense to me. In particular, _mujhe chiiNTiyoN se ghin aatii hai_ seems like a reasonably natural way of expressing the kind of visceral disgust one might feel towards icky creatures.



Agree; nothing so intense about "ghin aanaa/lagnaa." But ants and _ghin_, really? I could understand cockroaches giving _ghin_, but ants? I could even understand "furfurerii chaRhnaa," but not _ghin _for a non-slimy, lovely, plodding creature such as an ant.



aevynn said:


> Perhaps the choice of word _ghinaunaa_ isn't as much of a problem in @amiramir's proposed UH translation as much as just the clipped-ness of the sentence? After all, the proposed translation just says something like "She finds marrying off her 12 year old daughter disgusting/abhorrent," which doesn't sound quite right in English either. If the translation had instead been _apnii baarah saal kii bachchii kii shaadii kar dene kaa xayaal usko ghinaunaa lagtaa hai_, that would probably have sounded okay...?


----------



## Happu

Wiktionary said:
			
		

> Thought to be from a substrate language. Possibly related to Akkadian _𒈨𒈛𒄩𒆠_ (Me-luḫ-ḫa)



That's probably the closest we can get to it. Interestingly, the fact that outsiders/enemies were seen as people with uncouth language, is regarded as an indication that Vedic people were very particular about their (proper, refined) language, and it was a marker to set themselves apart.

By the way, in Buddhist writings one finds the word_ milakkha, _a kind of 'Pali-ized' version of _mleccha_.


----------



## Dinraat

littlepond said:


> Agree; nothing so intense about "ghin aanaa/lagnaa." But ants and _ghin_, really? I could understand cockroaches giving _ghin_, but ants? I could even understand "furfurerii chaRhnaa," but not _ghin _for a non-slimy, lovely, plodding creature such as an ant.


It's all subjective I guess. For some people, even cockroaches aren't باعث گھن. Yep, dunya bohat baRii hai.

P.s. We say چیونٹیوں chiyyunTiyoN (not entirely sure about the Roman spellings) or even chuunTiyon (rather informal) instead of _chiiNTiyoN._


----------



## littlepond

Dinraat said:


> It's all subjective I guess.


It is, of course, but one feels _ghin _usually from something/someone wet, slimy, clammy (or who lives in such places). In my experience, ants are not of that type: they are quite "powdery."


----------

