# USA's and Europe's relationship



## Danae

Hi! This is still somehow a mystery to me, but, since I'm European, I sometimes get the feeling that people from Europe have a hostile, or, let's say, simply negative opinion towards United States of America. At the same time, I sometimes think that people from North America is tottaly (most of them) unaware and indifferent about european culture and politics and so on.  It is not the same saying that America's relationship with Europe is mostly economic and diplomatic (at least I think it is all up to that) and saying that the relationship is cultural. 

I would very much appreciate your opinions: do you feel the same about americans' feelings towards Europe and Europeans and vice-versa? I would like to change my point of view but your thoughts on this are valuable.

Thanks.


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## cuchuflete

Hi Danae,

The difficulty in discussing the topic as presented is that it assumes a uniformity of views among European and North American populations.  I'll address only one sub-set of North America, the U.S.  Off the top of my head, I can think of quite a few groups with distinct knowledge of and attitudes towards Europe:

—The better educated, especially those who have travelled outside the U.S., whether or not such travels included European nations, are well aware of Europe as a collection of distinct cultures, as well as a region that
shares some cultural attitudes today.  Such people generally have at least a modest ability to read or speak a language or languages other than English.  Attitudes towards Europe within this group are generally positive,
while members may share or dispute specific policies, in accord with their own political and social beliefs.
—Children and grandchildren of European immigrants:  These people, many of whom are in the group described above, are often quite aware of the culture of their ancestors' nation.  They may or may not have
much interest or awareness of other European cultures.  Depending on their educational level, they may be
any of- [1]sympathetic to policies of their parents' or grandparents' nation of origin, [2] sympathetic to European policies in general, [3] smug in their attitudes to their ancestral nation, or towards Europe as a whole.
—Government officials: These are apt to think of Europe in terms of its agreement or disagreement with current U.S. policies.  They will also think of Europe in economic terms, taking into account all of-- market potential; competitive posture; source of FDI in the U.S. Views will be generally well-informed, if somewhat cynical.
—The majority, especially those living away from the East Coast, and with less education than a university education: generally not well-informed, fairly indifferent, and apt to believe declarations by leaders in the national government.

There are many other ways to group U.S. citizens.  What I've written is a superficial overview of some easily  identifiable groups.


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## Danae

In fact, you're right Cuchuflette. The truth is when I (and most people) expose my view on this subject, I sometimes tend to generalize and ascribe this negative perception of the outside world to all american citizens. I couldn't agree more: there is in fact a fraction, not small, of american citizens (when I say american, I always mean citizens and elements of United States) who are tottaly indifferent to whatever concerns the "old continent" (another reference they use). The press, this is, the public sphere is very much responsible for this, since it is the stories and news it publishes (very focused on the american territory and middle east) that "draw" the enclosing reality they become interested in. 
Here in Europe, I feel that part of the negative image some have towards the United States is due to the political representatives it has. But it is also true that it is the people that elect the president.

I strongly believe it is a whole different culture that forms this adverse opinion of mine. I have never been able to understand the choices and ways of life that the american culture comprises and, still, I live with it, most of the time, we live with it most of the time: the press is full of american references. The whole movie industry that "invades" our homes is american. From advertisement to movies and music, there is not much to hide from. And still, the american world remains a mystery to me. I've never been to United States, I don't think the tone of my opinion would change much if I visited it, but I remain open-minded to all opinions, be they positive or adverse to that big country that has so many flaws.


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## lizzeymac

I couldn't improve on Cuchu's post, I think it's very fair & accurate. 

I have a slightly different take on the issue.  I don't intend to cause offense but I do find this topic aggravating.   It has been my experience that many Europeans are perfectly comfortable expressing a negative and condescending opinion of Americans, even if they have almost no direct personal knowledge of Americans.

Many New Yorkers would fall into the category of well-educated, middle- or upper-income traveler, or the children or grandchildren of immigrants.   Several European TV and radio news shows are re-broadcast here every day, several times a day - from the UK, Ireland, France, Italy, Greece, Poland, Croatia, Russia, and an EU newscast from Brussels.  As Cuchu mentions, large cities are the exception rather than the rule.

I agree that many Americans do not have an in-depth understanding of "European" culture.  
What surprises me is that you expect that they would.  Many, perhaps even most Americans will never be able to go to Europe. They will never have the financial security to feel comfortable choosing to spend a significant portion of their savings to travel a minimum of 3,500 miles for a one-week vacation, instead of paying for health insurance, repaying tens of thousand of dollars in student loans, paying their mortgage, saving for college tuition for their kids, or saving for their retirement.  

The majority of European tourists visit a very small selection of places in America, mostly tourist-y places like beach resorts, amusement parks, the Grand Canyon, and large cities. I would guess that many Americans have never met a European and conversely, European travelers have only met a very small and limited segment of American society.  I work on a regular basis with about 15 European expats, they are well-educated, speak decent English, and most of them have lived and worked in several European countries before coming to America.  They had almost no understanding of American culture other than out-of-date TV shows and action-adventure movies, and they seemed surprised to find that these were innacurate. The Irish are the only Europeans I have met that seem to have some understanding of America.

I think more Americans are aware of trade issues with Asia, Mexico, and South America than with Europe. In striclty cultural terms, Mexico, Canada, the Caribean nations, Central and South America are our nearest neghbors, why should it surprise you that we are at least as familiar with them as we are with a continent that is on the other side of the world?


While I agree that there are many crappy TV American shows and movies, I think it's a bit much to use the term "invades" to refer to the American TV shows and movies that are "forced" upon you. I know there are decent TV programs  from the UK and Ireland - they are broadcast here.  Do you mean to say there aren't any good Portuguese (or European) TV shows to watch instead of crappy American ones?   Are these TV channels and movie theaters controlled by the government or are they commercial for-profit corporations? 
Not all Americans like all of the television shows that are broadcast here.    Many conservative people object to the rough language, sex, and violence.  I don't like stupid game shows, celebrity gossip shows, or "reality TV."  
We have a solution to this problem - if you don't like it, don't watch it.  If enough people choose to not watch a show, it will be cancelled.

As to our current government, you will get no argument from me.  I didn't vote for him and I am counting the days 'til he is gone.  I would remind you that less than 30% of the population voted for him.  And yes, our voting system could be improved.


I do not find this particularly encouraging:



Danae said:


> ...And still, the american world remains a mystery to me. I've never been to United States, I don't think the tone of my opinion would change much if I visited it, but I remain open-minded to all opinions, be they positive or adverse to that big country that has so many flaws.



If that's your idea of having an open mind, I don't know what would change the tone of your opinion.


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## ireney

Hmmm, unless there are posts that take Canada into consideration perhaps the title of this thread should change? I see that even the thread starter is focusing on the US.

Anyway, I disagree with lumping all Europeans together. It's as bad as lumping all Americans together. There are Europeans who think the way it has been always described but not all do so.

I can only speak with some certainty for my own country Greece. In general, people feel a certain hostility (of varying degrees and various reasons) toward the US foreign policy. That translates into hostility toward the government of the US. When it comes to people, well, the older generation used to talk about Americans in a condescending way, and some of the younger generation also do. One of the major reasons Greeks thought/think that Americans are naive is that quite a few tourists in the past were given short change  What the local geniuses didn't realise of course was that, back then, the difference between drachma and dollar was so vast that, even overcharging them the Americans were paying what seemed little to them   Even before the advent of the euro though,ever since Greece became more expensive to live or travel to than it was (or in other words it stopped being ridiculously cheap), foreigners started counting their change more carefully.

In general people are aware that there are major cultural differences between lets say a New York lawyer and a farmer in Texas and those are generally the same who know that there are major differences of the kind between an Athenian lawyer and a farmer in Thessaly.


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## Athaulf

lizzeymac said:


> I have a slightly different take on the issue.  I don't intend to cause offense but I do find this topic aggravating.   It has been my experience that many Europeans are perfectly comfortable expressing a negative and condescending opinion of Americans, even if they have almost no direct personal knowledge of Americans.



As a European, I can confirm that this is true of my experience too. Many Europeans really have a ridiculous cartoonish picture of the U.S., and enjoy mocking the supposedly terrible American ignorance of the outside world without realizing that the overall ignorance of typical Europeans -- and sometimes their own -- is at least as bad. Many are also apt to accuse the U.S. political, economic, and social system of all kinds of evils from a moral high ground, but without even pausing to think how similar criticism could be applied to their own countries. 

A true story: once I spoke with a friend from a small European country who was making fun of Americans because some poll indicated that many of them couldn't find Afghanistan on the map, despite the fact that the U.S. troops are waging a war there. "OK", I said, "but realistically, how many people in _your _country would be able to find it on the map?" He said, "Well, everyone would be able to find it if we were waging a war there!" But guess what -- he wasn't aware that _his country did in fact have troops in Afghanistan_ at the time! 

I could tell many such true anecdotes about Europeans making ridiculously condescending remarks about Americans while betraying their own ignorance in the process.


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## ireney

But Athaulf surely you don't think that a person that didn't even know such a basic thing about his country is a good representative of the average person in his country unless the average person in this country didn't read newspapers, watched the news or have any political discussions about the goverment's policy! 

True, I am again seeing things from a Greek perspective since here there are only few who don't debate or had debated in the past the fact that there are Greek troops in Afghanistan as part of NATO's forces, but I can't imagine we are _that_ different from other people.


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## Danae

I would like to make something clear, Lizzeymac. I wish not to generalize, and I said it, or to ascribe my opinion to all americans nor to all europeans. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to the rule! As to you argument on the fact that a great part of the american citizens don't afford to travel to Europe, I tottally agree with you. But guess what? The same happens in my country. I do know several people that already had the chance to go to USA, but the fraction is insignificant compared to the portuguese population. And I do have an answer to the reason you've pointed out (very cleverly, I must say): not having the chance to afford a trip to Europe is not enough reason to being indifferent to what is happening abroad. I never got out of Portugal and Spain myself! Still, and it is impossible not to, I keep myself in touch with the events taking place in USA, in the rest of the european continent, etc, etc, etc. 
As to what you said about watching american "crap" TV shows, I don't watch them. And I'm not complaining about it either. All I'm saying is that that's what we get from USA, and it's not our choice either. Music and films are what we consume the most. And truth is, I like it! Never complained about them. What I meant was that we cannot help having another opinion from your country than the one the majority has. But it was pointed out by someone else later. And you're right once again: that partial negative opinion I keep referring to is commanded by the american government's foreign policy. That's probably the detonator of any european criticism. I guess that USA has never been so vastly criticized as it is now. Or perhaps I'm wrong, but if it has, I wasn't born at that time.
Now don't get offended with my opinion, Lizzeymac. The reason why I posted this thread is that I really intend on hearing different points of view, especially from people coming from the USA itself! I want to hear the opposite side of the coin. And, sincerely, I do not find this thread aggravating. I'm in favour of all kinds of discussions. And I wish not to keep myself from saying what I think. This sentence couldn't apply more: Correct me if I'm wrong! I really want to see this thread further discussed. And Lizzeymac, feel free to say what you feel about Europe and about my opinion, in particular. That has been my goal, so far.


As to the title of the thread, it could, in fact, be changed: North America does comprise Canada and I missed that point really. The title would be rather USA's and Europe relationship, cause that's what I aimed at. Thanks for pointing out that too.


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## Athaulf

ireney said:


> But Athaulf surely you don't think that a person that didn't even know such a basic thing about his country is a good representative of the average person in his country unless the average person in this country didn't read newspapers, watched the news or have any political discussions about the goverment's policy!



Of course, I didn't mean that this anecdote is really representative of an average case; I presented it as a funny extreme example. Also, consider that a small country might easily have only a few dozen or so soldiers in Afghanistan, who are there only symbolically as a diplomatic gesture, and not really engaged in any action that makes for interesting news, so it's easy for people to just forget about them. 

On the other hand, when I hear anti-American rants and snide comments by Europeans (and I've sure heard and read a lot of those in my life!), I usually do notice inadvertent displays of ignorance about the U.S. society, politics, geography, and other relevant things. To be sure, they are rarely as blatant and crude as in the above anecdote, but they often do confirm what Lizzeymac has written above.


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## palomnik

There is a historical perspective to consider here as well. Europe became a major preoccupation of the USA starting in World War II, mainly because of the Cold War. Without even realizing it (and they didn't realize it, believe it or not) the Americans, in their contemplation of total war with the Soviets, turned Europe into an armed camp. Not too surprisingly, many Europeans resented this tremendously; some, like De Gaulle, tried to do something about it, but for the most part Europeans accepted it as an uncomfortable fact of life, sort of like the Berlin Wall. A curious symbiotic relationship developed between America and Europe. The Americans arrogated to themselves the right to station their troops all over Europe. They underlying assumption was that the Europeans could not be relied upon to safeguard their own interests (which of course were assumed to be identical with American interests). The Europeans, in turn, resented the American presence, feared that in the event of war they would be the first to be annihilated, but at some level realized that it meant that they really didn't have to pay for their own defense, allowing them to direct their fiscal resources elsewhere. A sort of contempt for each other developed on both sides.

Based on what I saw when I was young, Americans knew more about Europe a generation ago than they know now. Surely there was more European news in American newspapers in the 1950's than there is now. I think that Americans gradually stopped respecting Europe after World War II. This, coupled with an almost permanent cultural tendency Americans have to be rather self-absorbed, has meant an extremely low level of awareness of Europe. For Americans, any more countries like France and Germany are not wellsprings of Western culture, but just places on the map, like Paraguay or Zimbabwe.

The current American administration's policy of moving ahead unilaterally without paying attention to the desires of European leaders is perhaps the latest and most obvious example of this attitude.


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## Danae

"Surely there was more European news in American newspapers in the 1950's than there is now."

Yes, I think that the public sphere, namely through the press (newspapers and CNN, just to name a few) is what is most significant of this character you've mentioned of being somehow self-absorbed. CNN, for instance, has always had a very strong reputation, but I sometimes doubt it because I see it as a very partial news channel, in the sense that the compilation of news presented day by day is very focused on the american territory and middle east, as I mentioned earlier. Ok. We could say the same exact thing about Sky News, which sometimes focuses almost exclusively on the top british stories, some of them quite curious and comical. 
If someone from USA is interested in getting to know something of what happens abroad (outside the american continent), I don't really think they'll find it in the media coverage presented by CNN... a rather disturbing thought, considering it is such an important "media vehicle" in USA and outside it.


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## nanel

This topic always surprises me. I wonder why do we expect Americans to know everything about us when I (for example) know nothing about what's going on in let's say... Malaysia (random country). We know what's happening in the US because it happens to be the most powerful country in the world and knowing what they do, matters. Just because everyone (not only Europeans) know what they do, are they really supposed to know what's going on in the rest of the world? In each and every country and continent? I don't think so. This is like the language issue, we do speak English (or try to ), because it's the "international bussiness language", but since I'm not supposed to speak French, German, Portuguese, Greek... and a long etcetera, I don't understand why are they supposed to. Not knowing all those languages doesn't keep me from visiting those countries, and when I'm there, I speak English, so why can't they do the same?

Oh, and of course there are some people who would tell you how silly/naive/weird those Americans are! You'd say they are from a different planet. It's another silly stereotype, obviously. I've heard a lot of 'interesting' ones:

- Americans are fat (oh, of course, all of them. And in Spain we are all slim and beautiful -note the sarcasm-).

- American kids are always playing video games (right, because kids here don't have those things, they sit on the sofa and talk to their parents, or play with their cars... Yeah.... Riiiight.)

- Americans eat too much junk food (oh, and we don't?)

- Americans never take the phone, they wait for the answering machine to take it for them, even if they're at home (weird, because I have some friends who happen to be Americans and they DO take the phone, but maybe when they're playing video games and so fat they can't move they don't... )

I don't mean to offend anyone, this is meant to be a light and fun post  I just find it funny when people attack them for the same things we do, even funnier when they consider every American to be stupid or close-minded, because we all know there are like 10-15 US Citizens, and of course we have met them all  We complain about them not knowing anything about us and thinking about us stereotypically, but we do just the same! (of course I'm not talking about everyone -American or European-, just about those who do it). In my opinion, it's probably because just as some of them don't know us, some of us don't know them.


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## Danae

Being the top country in terms of political importance or "power" is no excuse to be unaware, I suppose... Why isn't Europe considered as powerful as USA? Perhaps because we don't feel as important as United States. Well, I do. Not as important, even more important. I can't find Malaysia on the map, either. Well, but we can't really compare Malaysia to Europe or to United States, can we?
Thank you for your point of view, Nanel. I hadn't heard a spanish opinion so far. And it is as important as all the others.


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## EmilyD

In the U.S., in the public education, we are often taught that we are, "the offspring" of Europe. There is some effort to teach about "Native Americans"/ "Indian" tribes, but that is considered a "unit" of the curriculum, not central to it. I think that "European Culture" is romanticized and resented by people from the United States. This is a gross oversimplification, but represents my experience.

My question is: for those among us,who identify as* First Nation or Indigenous, regardless of original continent, how do we perceive the relationships? *

I suspect there may be more solidarity or sympathy, when the question is amplified.

_Nomi _[as a kid, I considered myself to be half-American!]


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## nichec

I've always hesitated to post anything in CD forum, especially in a thread like this one But I guess the fact that I didn't grow up as an American or an European, yet I spent most of my adult life in America and Europe may allow me to have some different points of view on this matter.

I remember once I was having a drink with my friend in a bar in Paris, some Americans were quite drunk, and somehow they started to argue with other French customers (I believe they were drunk too). At some point, one American shouted at a French guy: You proud son of a bxxxh, and the French guy replied (in English): But I'm not stupid.

Well, I guess this is sort of like some prejudice they have towards each other, the Americans are supposed to be ignorant, and the French are supposed to be proud.....Most of my American friends are always eager to know everything about Paris, or Rome, or London. In some places, people would be really impressed if you tell them that you just come back from Europe. But still, they love to tease me of my "Europeaness", like always wearing black, trying to walk as much as possible, reading a lot......

On the contrary, my Parisian friends usually know Americans from all the tourists they bump into in the streets. To them, the Americans are loud and innocent and they don't know how to dress or enjoy food. But please bear in mind that everyone is too loud for a Parisian (they are very very quiet in public places), and I suppose you can't help to look innocent when you are travelling. And I think only the Italians know more about dressing and enjoying life/food than the Parisians. They are indeed proud of their culture, their language, and their city, and I believe they have the right to do so. So when they see a bunch of American tourists shouting in English and wearing shorts, they probably assume that all the Americans are like that.

In my opinion, there are very nice Europeans and very nice Americans, as long as you try to understand their culture and fit in.


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## Outsider

Danae, I am not entirely sure about what you wish to ask. I do not agree that Europeans in general have a "hostile" attitude towards the United States. Critical, perhaps, especially in the last few years, but to the average European the U.S.A. is still seen as the nation which "saved" Europe from the two world wars (even though the U.S.S.R. had a big part in WWII as well) and during the Cold War.

Furthermore, and a bit more cynically, Europeans feel that the United States are the one nation out there that is both culturally close to Europe and powerful. China is not, India is not... even Russia is seen as more distant than the U.S. (though perhaps the reasons for that have to do more with politics than with culture per se). If they ever become the economic powerhouses that economists have been threatening us all with, China and India will be completely justified in showing no mercy to their former colonial masters and exploiters, who never had any mercy for them. Only the U.S. _may_ feel some empathy for us.

I stressed the word "may", because the relations between the U.S. and any other country are necessarily asymmetrical, as you've realised from the replies you got in this thread. They are a continent away; there's a whole ocean between us. They are a superpower; everyone else is not. Europe had its 15 minutes of fame, but all that is over now, and there's even some doubt about whether we'll manage to stay afloat economically. It's not surprising that many Americans are absent-minded about Europe. Look in a map, and see how small our continent is.

From your post I get the feeling that you expected some kind of affinity due to the fact that the American society was, in a way, founded by Europeans. However, they have people from all over the world there, and they've had important contributions from many other cultures, starting with the Native Americans. As American culture becomes more mature and less elitist and broadens its horizons, it's natural that emotional and cultural ties with Europe should grow weaker.


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## toolmanUF

Danae said:


> I can't find Malaysia on the map, either. Well, but we can't really compare Malaysia to Europe or to United States, can we?
> Thank you for your point of view, Nanel. I hadn't heard a spanish opinion so far. And it is as important as all the others.


 
It´s quite sad if you can´t find Malaysia on the map, it is a rapidly developing Asian country. Some of the most impressive modern skyscrapers are found in its capital Kuala Lumpur (incuding one of the tallest buildings in the world.) It is one of the world´s largest Muslim majority countries.

Why is it that you say that we can´t really compare Malaysia to Europe? Is it because you are thinking with a Eurocentric mind? Isn´t that like an American saying "I can´t find Portugal on a map, but who cares because you can´t compare Portugal to the United States!"


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## Danae

toolmanUF said:


> It´s quite sad if you can´t find Malaysia on the map, it is a rapidly developing Asian country. Some of the most impressive modern skyscrapers are found in its capital Kuala Lumpur (incuding one of the tallest buildings in the world.) It is one of the world´s largest Muslim majority countries.
> 
> Why is it that you say that we can´t really compare Malaysia to Europe? Is it because you are thinking with a Eurocentric mind? Isn´t that like an American saying "I can´t find Portugal on a map, but who cares because you can´t compare Portugal to the United States!"



I have nothing close to an Eurocentric mind! Simply I feel that I must admit honestly that I'm not able to locate it on the map. Why do you think I said that "we can´t really compare Malaysia to Europe"? Political roles and territorial differences are obvious. I'm not erasing part of its importance. Simply, those are very different countries and there's no comparison whatsoever.

Yes, you may say that I'm very proud of this continent and "its 15 minutes of fame" for me were centuries and centuries of history!  Some people may not value it, but I do, as I do value United States' rise as a superpower. 
My initial thread was an attempt to hear a little bit more of this matter from people from all around the world. My goal was to confirm or invalidate my starting point of view. And it still is. My intention has never been to oversimplify these "hostile" perspectives as I put it. If they're not hostile at all, then thank you for showing me your perspective. I also believe there's more criticism than really hostile opinions.
And Outsider, you know, that view on the World Wars doesn't really apply to our present situation all around the world, particularly, in the Middle East: I hope that in the same way they supposedly saved us from two wars, they are not dragging us into another one...


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## TRG

· Hi all,

Almost all comments on this forum that express a negative view of a specific country are directed at Americans (U.S.A.).  Many of the comments are by Americans, so I suppose you have to allow that they have a right to criticize their own country, but many of the comments are gratuitous political potshots and are inappropriate.  We have had that even in this thread.  People do not seem to be able to resist letting everyone know their political predilections.   There is a place to do that, but it’s not here, IMO.


  ·Much of what defines people’s thinking on this matter is of a political nature, and there is a tendency for people to assume they know everything about an individual once they know their politics.  This is a common human failing which I am sure is shared by people around the world.


  ·The presence of U.S. troops in some European countries is just a little more complicated than the U.S. “arrogating to itself the right to station troops where ever it pleased.”  Take my word for it, but if you don’t want to then at least try picking up a history book. 


  ·Skepticism about American influence in Europe began fairly soon after WWII.  According to one 1950’s opinion poll, a majority of French citizens felt the Marshall Plan was “bad for their country.” 



  ·As far as American provincialism, I think it has a little to do with the size of the country and the fact that it is made up of many “states.”  An American has much to keep up with culturally just within the confines of his own country.  Europeans have more exposure to “foreign culture” just by virtue of its proximity.   I have never been to Europe myself so of course, I know not of what I speak, but I know a little geography.


  ·Some resentment of American military and economic power is just human nature.  We despise the rich and powerful, even within our own country.  People love a good conspiracy and if it makes them feel more important to think the rich and powerful are conniving against them, I suppose that’s their right.


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## Danae

I'm sure I've agreed with all the threads so far (or most of them). One point just mentioned is indeed the fact that everyone (especially those who know little of the world through direct experience - travelling - like me) tend to transfer political attitudes within a country's government to that country's people. One thing I've noticed in the last few years is that a large part of the american citizens do not identify themselves with the their president's profile. In that sense, we cannot blame it on them (I mean, all political actions taken abroad) and that is for sure. There is still a large fraction of the european citizens that does that, partly due to ignorance, too.
My final conclusion will always be what was pointed out by some of you: in lack of direct knowledge/experience we will always ascribe a country's political behaviour to the nature of its people. And to proove it is a wrong conduct, we have the most notorious case of it all: Hitler's behaviour didn't find its reflex on the german people of the twentieth century.


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## tvdxer

Danae said:


> Hi! This is still somehow a mystery to me, but, since I'm European, I sometimes get the feeling that people from Europe have a hostile, or, let's say, simply negative opinion towards United States of America. At the same time, I sometimes think that people from North America is tottaly (most of them) unaware and indifferent about european culture and politics and so on.  It is not the same saying that America's relationship with Europe is mostly economic and diplomatic (at least I think it is all up to that) and saying that the relationship is cultural.
> 
> I would very much appreciate your opinions: do you feel the same about americans' feelings towards Europe and Europeans and vice-versa? I would like to change my point of view but your thoughts on this are valuable.
> 
> Thanks.



It depends largely on what North Americans you're talking about.  My observations:

1) Hardcore liberals: They often admire "progressive" Europe with its high taxes, heavy social welfare systems, and (for the most part) liberal social  and religious values, especially the Scandinavian countries.  

2) Hardcore conservatives: Often despire Europe as a quasi-communist continent of slobs loafing off the social welfare system, high taxes, emasculate men, and "Euroweenie" politicians opposed to U.S. military action.

3) Snobs / wannabe snobs: Kind of go along with #1.  Look at Europe as an enlightened land of higher culture, well above the philistine, puritanical U.S.  Desire to adopt "European" ways of living, eating, drinking, etc.

4) Young people: Sometimes look upon Europe as a fun Amelie-land of low drinking ages, Smart cars, discotheques, liberal sexual attitudes, and weed-smoking (some confuse Amsterdam, NL with the entire continent).  May have been there on a vacation or school trip.  For many U.S. college students, a backpacking trip across the continent is a major goal.

Many think low European drinking ages produce responsible, mature drinkers across the continent who don't binge like Americans 18 - 21 year olds, but they confuse Italy and France with the rest of the continent.

5) Your average older, working-class American: Doesn't know much about Europe, hasn't been there, and doesn't have much of an opinion.  May not be able to identify major European countries on a map.


These are stereotypes of Europe in general, which at least for Americans seems to be Western Europe in general.  Certain countries have their own stereotypes: Italy as being full of romantic men who live with their mothers who make them pasta, Brits as being associated with royalty and having bad teeth, etc.


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## Outsider

TRG said:


> Almost all comments on this forum that express a negative view of a specific country are directed at Americans (U.S.A.).  Many of the comments are by Americans, so I suppose you have to allow that they have a right to criticize their own country, but many of the comments are gratuitous political potshots and are inappropriate.  We have had that even in this thread.  People do not seem to be able to resist letting everyone know their political predilections.


I've been posting in this forum for longer than you, and that's not my impression. But let's admit it were true: let's assume the USA really are the most criticized nation in the world. Is that unfair? Or could it be that it's a natural, inevitable consequence of your superpower status?



Danae said:


> And Outsider, you know, that view on the World Wars doesn't really apply to our present situation all around the world, particularly, in the Middle East: I hope that in the same way they supposedly saved us from two wars, they are not dragging us into another one...


Danae, while I agree with you to a point, allow me to quote a passage from an excellent British TV series called _I, Claudius_ (based on a novel by Robert Graves): 

Agrippina: We all did things during my mad brother's reign that we wouldn't normally do.
Claudius: But some more willingly than others.

As much as I might have disagreed with the decision itself, when the U.S. went into Iraq they did so with the support of their people. I was more shocked in many ways by the several European governments that joined the war against the wishes of the _vast_ majority of its citizens. At least, the United States are democratic.


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## fenixpollo

This comment seems like you are criticizing Americans for their vocabulary: 





Danae said:


> ...who are totally indifferent to whatever concerns the "old continent" (another reference they use).


 I have never heard this phrase. Where did you see it? Which Americans use it? References, please. 

I have heard the phrase "old world", when comparing the homeland of immigrants to America with their adoptive country; and the phrase "the continent", when distinguishing the UK from (the rest of) Europe. However, neither of these terms is used in a derogatory way.

If you are going to condemn Americans for something (and there is plenty to condemn, just as there is in any country), please choose something valid -- not something petty, based on your inaccurate and unsubstantiated perceptions.


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## Outsider

I think Danae simply translated a synonym of "Old World" which is common in Portuguese. It's often used in reference to Europe, around here.


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## Athaulf

fenixpollo said:


> I have never heard this phrase ["old continent"]. Where did you see it? Which Americans use it? References, please.



In fact, this phrase (i.e. its literal translation) is widely used as a poetic-sounding name for Europe in various European languages, for example _stari kontinent_ in Croatian. There is nothing whatsoever derogatory about it; in fact, it's often used by authors who want to express their pride in the history, culture, and traditions of Europe. I've also seen it used in English, but not very frequently.


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## Danae

fenixpollo said:


> This comment seems like you are criticizing Americans for their vocabulary:  I have never heard this phrase. Where did you see it? Which Americans use it? References, please.
> 
> I have heard the phrase "old world", when comparing the homeland of immigrants to America with their adoptive country; and the phrase "the continent", when distinguishing the UK from (the rest of) Europe. However, neither of these terms is used in a derogatory way.
> 
> If you are going to condemn Americans for something (and there is plenty to condemn, just as there is in any country), please choose something valid -- not something petty, based on your inaccurate and unsubstantiated perceptions.



Just make a research in the net: I bet you'll find hundreds and hundreds of references in north-american pages. Anyway, I've always heard this sentence from my years of study in the university. Several teachers of mine referred to it and they were not very glad with the designation. I suppose they saw in it a kind of negative view of a continent that is no longer adapted to the present... I believe that's where I got this sense from. They could have used "old world" as said by Outsider, that I cannot precise. But either way, both sentences are similar and yes, they can be thought as something positive: it depends of the perspective you're having. Old, as having an extensive history to show, therefore, valuable and precious. Or old, as being obsolete/archaic and being no longer valued. Both are possible meanings.


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## Danae

By the way, there's an american historian, Walter Laqueur, that already drew the decline of Europe as an old continent, not "the old continent", though. I would be glad to read it, now that I think of it:

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cach...continent"+europe&hl=pt-PT&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=pt


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## Danae

Besides "the old/new continent" there seems to be also a new (and strange) designation. It is very personal, of course, I'm sure few have used it so far, but it's still curious (and silly I must say). However, it's a respectable opinion. It comes from a very remarkable newspaper, The Economist and I'd love to read it all, but unfortunately, we must subscribe... 
If you wish to know more, here's a sample:

*EUROPE, viewed from across the Atlantic, is often looked on as a depressing place—not so much the old continent as the dark continent: economically stuck, politically and morally confused, militarily feeble and populated most visibly by pensioners, trade-unionists, anti-Semites and terrorists.

It looks like the dark ages (middle ages) have never left this place...

"**...economically stuck, politically and morally confused, militarily feeble and populated most visibly by pensioners, trade-unionists, anti-Semites and terrorists." --- I find this interesting. Do you share this view?...*


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## Outsider

I loved a sketch that Rob Cordry did once on _The Daily Show_, where he disguised himself as a "typical European" visiting America. He wore a fake Hitler moustache, and an SS uniform.


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## Danae

So, not only Hitler is used as a metonymy of Germany, now Germany is also used as a metonymy of Europe!  That is twice funny!!


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## Outsider

After walking around in that uniform and getting negative reactions from the people on the street, the reporter he was playing naively concluded that the relations between Europe and the U.S. were in bad shape due to the War in Iraq (or something similar). 
I'm pretty sure that Cordry was making fun of the stereotypes that Americans have about other peoples (among other things). That self-criticism was what made it so funny to me.


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## LaReinita

I don't understand why we are comparing one nation to a whole continent.  Saying that Americans know nothing about Europeans while presuming that Europeans know about Americans.  How many countries is Europe comprised of? (this is not an actual question)  I don't think that this is fair at all.


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## cuchuflete

Danae said:


> *
> 
> 
> "**...economically stuck, politically and morally confused, militarily feeble and populated most visibly by pensioners, trade-unionists, anti-Semites and terrorists." --- I find this interesting. Do you share this view?...*




Here are the views of a single person, probably not representative of even a sizeable minority of
Americans--

Economically stuck:  The recent French presidential election was won by a candidate who said as much.  Of course this takes us right back to my objection to the broad generalizations in the thread starter question.  There is not a single European economy, and there is lots of variation from country to country.  The U.K. seems to have a pretty vibrant economy, as do many continental nations.  A few European countries do appear "stuck".  To characterize all of Europe
as economically stuck is as incorrect in one place as it is correct in another.  (The U.S. economy, by the same standard=some industries are vibrant, as are some regions, while other industries and regions are 'stuck'.)

Politically and morally confused:  This is a uselessly broad generalization.  We could go on for weeks discussing specific points, but in general I disagree with the statement.  

Militarily feeble:  Some European countries have capable military forces.  The politicians who control them may make those forces next to useless.  Consider the political decisions that led
Europe to do so little in the former Yugoslavia.  One should not confuse lack of political will to address a problem with military inadequacy.  The real question that matters is one on which I'd like to read European views--Do European nations, individually and collectively, have adequate military institutions to defend or promote European interests?  (U.S. military- capable, for some kinds of conflicts, and deployed in others.  Given political decisions by current U.S. political leadership, the military is taking the blame for inept policy and lack of planning, to say nothing of
misguided objectives.)

"*populated most visibly by pensioners, trade-unionists, anti-Semites and terrorists.":  

I've not met any Americans who see Europe this way.  *European trade-unions are more important in the European economy than are American counterparts in industry.  The frequency distribution of the population is a concern to European nations, as it ought to be.   Anti-Semitism is visible on both sides of the ocean, but is more rooted in some European nations than in the U.S.  Both the U.S. and Europe have experienced terrorism. 

In short, the description from one of my favorite magazines strikes me as more an invention than
accurate reporting.


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## TRG

Outsider said:


> I've been posting in this forum for longer than you, and that's not my impression. But let's admit it were true: let's assume the USA really are the most criticized nation in the world. Is that unfair? Or could it be that it's a natural, inevitable consequence of your superpower status?



It's interesting that you say that.  I suspect we perceive comments differently, but that's why we talk, isn't it?   I agree with your last comment, and I don't think it's unfair except that sometimes the comments are being made in an inappropriate venue.


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## Danae

LaReinita said:


> I don't understand why we are comparing one nation to a whole continent.  Saying that Americans know nothing about Europeans while presuming that Europeans know about Americans.  How many countries is Europe comprised of? (this is not an actual question)  I don't think that this is fair at all.



No one is comparing Europe to United States... My initial thread didn't ask for a comparison and so didn't its title. This topic is a matter of finding out if there are some points in common that could be traced as describing the relationship between one continent (right, with dozens of different cultures) with one country, a superpower, in this case. In that sense, I don't expect neither a consensus neither to draw a homogeneity of all cultures. Quite on the contrary: I'm glad they're diversified.


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## Sepia

Outsider said:


> After walking around in that uniform and getting negative reactions from the people on the street, the reporter he was playing naively concluded that the relations between Europe and the U.S. were in bad shape due to the War in Iraq (or something similar).
> I'm pretty sure that Cordry was making fun of the stereotypes that Americans have about other peoples (among other things). That self-criticism was what made it so funny to me.



Once a German TV-station sent a guy dressed like that to a Neo-Nazi rally - filmed all with a hidden camera, of course. Most of them seemed to take the guy seriously.

------------------


However, the main theme of this thread makes me wonder: How many of you Americans, reading this forum occasionally watch non-US television stations - be it CNN/BBC-type news stations, music, or general stuff?


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## toolmanUF

Danae said:


> *EUROPE, viewed from across the Atlantic, is often looked on as a depressing place—not so much the old continent as the dark continent: economically stuck, politically and morally confused, militarily feeble and populated most visibly by pensioners, trade-unionists, anti-Semites and terrorists.*
> 
> *It looks like the dark ages (middle ages) have never left this place...[*quote]
> 
> Before I make any comment, I want to say that I happen to be an American studying in Europe right now, and I express relatively positive views of Europe in general. However, in response to these characteristics:
> 
> economically stuck: when I speak to many Europeans (French above all) they comment on the lack of opportunity compared to that in the USA. They say that it is near impossible to open up your own business, take out a loan, and it terms of purchasing power, from what I´ve seen Europeans tend to own a lot less stuff than Americans (which isn´t necessarily a bad thing, but in the States it is not out of the ordinary to see people with 4 cars, gigantic suburban homes, big screen TVs etc. I personally admire the European life, but from an American viewpoint, it seems like your money goes a lot farther in the USA that it does across the ocean)
> 
> politically and morally confused: Let me just say that here in Europe I have seen people smoking pot on the streets, hookers walking around with no shame, topless women walking through a university cafeteria, and porn on local cables. Again, I don´t want to judge, but this doesn´t happen in most parts of the United States. (And I also know that many Europeans are not like this) In terms of confusion, so many Europeans have become so secular to the point that they completely reject all forms of religious tradition. I have met several Europeans who I guess want to prove their atheism that they don´t even celebrate the main holidays of the their culture like Christmas and Easter. More Americans seem to be much more confident with their religious and culture identities, regardless of whether they be Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, or something else. On most American college campuses you will see dialogue between religious and cultural groups. Here in Europe it seems like militant secularism has taken hold. There seems to be much more tension between the Muslim immigrants and the host culture than there is in the United States.
> 
> antisemites: maybe its just my luck, but I have seen more antisemitism in Europe than I have in the United States. I have actually seen students make comments about the Jews being dishonest without any reaction from the rest of the class. (Granted, this was in an Arabic class that I´m taking here, but still, in the States comments like would be met with much more criticism.)
> 
> These are just complaints that people make about Europe. There are a lot of good things that we could say about Europe too. I am really enjoying being in Europe. However, I will end by saying that before coming here I had imagined Europe as a land so much more cultured and "livable" than the USA. After being here, there are MANY things about the USA that I miss and actually prefer. I am not necessarily looking forward to going back to the USA, but I admit that think some things are much better in the "new world."


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## Danae

Well, Toolman, I really enjoyed reading you thread. It was quite clear and honest. Sincerely, it is impossible to me to contradict or confirm some of your thoughts about european culture. I'm from Portugal and the further I got was Spain........ So, there's I feel a bit reluctant to defend any contrary point of view. 
But I'll say something, in the meanwhile: as far as economy is concerned, I guess I can say I agree with part of what you said. I'm not so sure about some top european countries, but the economic situation has been very dark lately, not only in my country (especially in my country!) but also in France, where unemployment has also risen so much. Also here it is almost impossible to open your own business, even buying estate or cars is a painful task! As to religion and jews, well, those things you've mentioned about walking around topless and having sex in public, I do not believe that those things happen here more than on the other side of the atlantic. Sincerely, not. They do happen a lot, but also here, like everything else, it depends of where you go. In Portugal, there's no question whatsoever related to jews (obviously), and muslim immigrants are yet very rare... we do have millions of immigrants from all around the world. Like France. But the conflicts happening there have not, fortunately, got here yet (and hope they don't). 
What I sometimes hear is lots of jokes making fun of jews in United States. But, again, I don't know if those jokes are intended for criticism. 
Concerning the fact that we are "populated most visibly by Terrorists", I would definitely argue with that! What terrorists? IRA and ETA are nothing compared to Al Quaeda. As to muslim terrorists, it's logical that there may be more of them living here than across the atlantic!! There aren't as much security and physical/geographical barriers!!! I've never felt insecure because of their proximity or their presence in the european countries. I've never had the perception that we're a paradise for terrorists either.


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## Danae

Adding something else, that secularism mentioned by toolman is really visible. I'm positively sure that catholicism has lost thousands of followers. In Portugal, for instance, most people marry through the church (altough the rates are silently falling) but that same people don't do what's supposed to be done by every believer of whatever religion: to practice their faith and creed, i.e., they do not attend church except for their wedding day, they do not pray before going to sleep, and I could be naming things forever... Even the Easter and Christmas Holidays, they are indeed celebrated, but in my country, they've become more of an excuse to rest and to be with the family, and less religious celebrations: people are not worried about the sacred significance of Christmas Eve or the Ressurrection of Christ.
I don't know if outside Europe things happen diferently, but I suppose in USA, for instance, almost everyone believes in something, in some kind of divinity or entity. In Europe, citizens are gradually becoming indifferent to religion. I can account for that.


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## LaReinita

Danae said:


> No one is comparing Europe to United States... My initial thread didn't ask for a comparison and so didn't its title. This topic is a matter of finding out if there are some points in common that could be traced as describing the relationship between one continent (right, with dozens of different cultures) with one country, a superpower, in this case. In that sense, I don't expect neither a consensus neither to draw a homogeneity of all cultures. Quite on the contrary: I'm glad they're diversified.


 
You say that this isn't about comparison, but from everything I've read, it seems otherwise. I have read about the "ignorance/(due to arrogance)" of Americans as to what is going on in Europe . . an entire continent consisting of over 40 countries, in comparison, to those (over 40) countries' knowledge of what occurs in the USA or of what actions are taken by the USA. I'm sorry you have to be subjected to our films and our music, but you should speak with your government and local cable companies about that. Also, if your opinions about us are derived from our films, well then, once again, I'm sorry. Most people understand that these films are purely fictional and not to be taken seriously. Excuse us for having wild imaginations and access to quite extreme technology and special effects. I am not trying to be offensive, but rather, make a point.


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## lizzeymac

Danae said:


> Well, Toolman, I really enjoyed reading you thread. It was quite clear and honest. Sincerely, it is impossible to me to contradict or confirm some of your thoughts about european culture. I'm from Portugal and the further I got was Spain........ So, there's I feel a bit reluctant to defend any contrary point of view.
> But I'll say something, in the meanwhile: as far as economy is concerned, I guess I can say I agree with part of what you said. I'm not so sure about some top european countries, but the economic situation has been very dark lately, not only in my country (especially in my country!) but also in France, where unemployment has also risen so much. Also here it is almost impossible to open your own business, even buying estate or cars is a painful task!* As to religion and jews, well, those things you've mentioned about walking around topless and having sex in public, I do not believe that those things happen here more than on the other side of the atlantic. Sincerely, not. *They do happen a lot, but also here, like everything else, it depends of where you go. In Portugal, there's no question whatsoever related to jews (obviously), and muslim immigrants are yet very rare... we do have millions of immigrants from all around the world. Like France. But the conflicts happening there have not, fortunately, got here yet (and hope they don't).
> *What I sometimes hear is lots of jokes making fun of jews in United States. But, again, I don't know if those jokes are intended for criticism.*
> Concerning the fact that we are "populated most visibly by Terrorists", I would definitely argue with that! What terrorists? IRA and ETA are nothing compared to Al Quaeda. As to muslim terrorists, it's logical that there may be more of them living here than across the atlantic!! There aren't as much security and physical/geographical barriers!!! I've never felt insecure because of their proximity or their presence in the european countries. I've never had the perception that we're a paradise for terrorists either.



Dear Danae - You leave me breathless. I truly hope I have misunderstood the post.

You sometimes hear lots of jokes making fun of American Jews?  But it might not be intended as criticism?  And the person making these jokes is not anti-semitic?  What a load of manure.

I think most Americans are overly conservative about nudity but it's a relatively harmless thing to be conservative about.  
Just for accuracy's sake- You appear to think that the  incidence of public nudity or sex(?) that Toolbar observed in Europe is not so different from what exists in America.  Sorry - that's another myth about America.  I live in NYC - one of the more liberal, libertarian places in America - and there are only 4 public beaches in the entire state of New York that have small areas set aside for topless sunbathing.  As a general rule, going topless in public is not legal in America.  Sex in public?  Nope.


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## Athaulf

lizzeymac said:


> Just for accuracy's sake- You appear to think that the  incidence of public nudity or sex(?) that Toolbar observed in Europe is not so different from what exists in America.  Sorry - that's another myth about America.  I live in NYC - one of the more liberal, libertarian places in America - and there are only 4 public beaches in the entire state of New York that have small areas set aside for topless sunbathing.  As a general rule, going topless in public is not legal in America.  Sex in public?  Nope.



When it comes to this particular type of cultural differences, there is no doubt that the whole of Anglo-America is infinitely more uptight than any part of Europe about anything sex-related, and the same goes for drinking, smoking, and pretty much any other activity traditionally considered as vice. When I moved from Croatia to Canada, I was expecting that the atmosphere would be less socially liberal than what I was used to back home, but I still ended up surprised by how deep the difference in attitudes was -- and Canada is certainly far more on the socially liberal side than most of the U.S. (with the exception of a few places like NYC).


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## Outsider

toolmanUF said:


> economically stuck: when I speak to many Europeans (French above all) they comment on the lack of opportunity compared to that in the USA. They say that it is near impossible to open up your own business, take out a loan [...]


Most of which Europeans have never actually lived in the United States, right? 
Yep, enough mutual ignorance and guesswork to go around.



toolmanUF said:


> I have met several Europeans who I guess want to prove their atheism that they don´t even celebrate the main holidays of the their culture like Christmas and Easter.


Christmas and Easter are not cultural holidays, they are religious holidays. Since we have freedom of religion here in Europe, no one feels forced to celebrate them, if they do not wish to.


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## Danae

lizzeymac said:


> Dear Danae - You leave me breathless. I truly hope I have misunderstood the post.
> 
> You sometimes hear lots of jokes making fun of American Jews?  But it might not be intended as criticism?  And the person making these jokes is not anti-semitic?  What a load of manure.
> 
> I think most Americans are overly conservative about nudity but it's a relatively harmless thing to be conservative about.
> Just for accuracy's sake- You appear to think that the  incidence of public nudity or sex(?) that Toolbar observed in Europe is not so different from what exists in America.  Sorry - that's another myth about America.  I live in NYC - one of the more liberal, libertarian places in America - and there are only 4 public beaches in the entire state of New York that have small areas set aside for topless sunbathing.  As a general rule, going topless in public is not legal in America.  Sex in public?  Nope.



What did you mean by "What a load of manure"?

Plus: did I make any assertions concerning the fact that those jokes were entirely anti-semites?! I was simply wondering why are there so many jokes on jews and hoping for some answers from anyone around from USA! In Portugal there aren't much nude beaches itself! 
Body exposure is just one of the elements of the so called "lack of morality" that we were discussing. We can add a lot more. And maybe those additional elements will strenghten the idea that Europe isn't that "morally confused" after all, if we look back at other countries.
Now, I would like to make another point, or else, ask for your opinion as to this aspect: Don't you sometimes think that that whole puritanism (never seen walking naked or having sex in public) is a bit false? I get the feeling that the american culture could use some progress regarding the real and practical notion of puritanism. I don't know if american citizens identify their culture as puritan. I just think that if they are so strict in some attitudes and values, they sometimes transgress their religious principles in other attitudes. I would point out, just for instance, some indifference towards the value of life. 
Please I ask you once again not to take this that seriously. I mean no offense at all. This forum is intended for debate, controversy if needed, but I'd praise freedom of expression, most of all.


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## Shy One

Look For The Ridiculous In Everything And You Will Find It (jules Renard)

Yea Its Like Two Fleas Arguing Over Who Owns The Dog...paul hogan from crocodile dundee

People Are People so why should it be you and i should get along so awfully.
So were different colours and were different breeds  so different people have different needs  its obvious you hate me thou ive done nothing wrong ive never even met you so what could i have done??? (depeche mode)

I suppose they were all right ????  hmmm...


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## mirx

Indifference from Americans to Europe/Europeans. Yes.
Hostile attitudes from Europeans towards Americans. Yes.


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