# Amériques



## imore

bonjour à tous,

J'aimerais savoir s'il est correct d'écrire Amériques (avec le "s") pour préciser qu'on parle des deux Amériques (Nord et Sud)?

merci

imore


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## timboleicester

imore said:


> bonjour à tous,
> 
> J'aimerais savoir s'il est correct d'écrire Amériques (avec le "s") pour préciser qu'on parle des deux Amériques (Nord et Sud)?
> 
> merci
> 
> imore


 
Je ne vois aucun obstacle.....but wait for a real authority.


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## breizh

Je n'en mettrais pas ma main à couper mais je crois bien que oui ; j'ai déjà vu ça quelque part (un livre d'histoire certainement). Oui, "les Amériques" pour parler du continent dans son entier, avec comme idée sous-jacente qu'il y a bien une Amérique du Nord, une Amérique du Sud...et pourquoi pas alors une Amérique Centrale ? Ce qui ramènerait notre compte à 3 Amériques, non ? Mais bizarrement ça sonne faux les trois Amériques. C'est vrai que je crois avoir entendu l'expression "les 2 Amériques", mais "les 3 Amériques" c'est moins sûr... Enfin, là c'est un autre problème n'est-ce-pas ?


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## Punky Zoé

On disait même autrefois "il est parti aux Amériques".


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## Odrizzt

Il y a une Amérique centrale (le Méxique et le Brésil formant les extrémités), et elle apaprtiend à l'Amérique latine ^^

En parlant des Amériques, on parle de sous continents où il y a deux masses de terre, une au nord et l'autre au sud... donc je mettrais un s: Amériques ^^


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## breizh

Concernant l'Amérique Centrale, oui c'est sûr, elle existe. Mais je m'interrogeais en fait de savoir si l'expression "les 2 Amériques" existait vraiment ou si c'est moi qui divague, et si l'expression existe,  alors pourquoi pas "les 3 Amériques", expression que par contre je suis certaine de ne jamais avoir entendue.
Voili, voilou !


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## Odrizzt

Parcequ'on parle des terres en géographie, et jusqu'à présent, il y a que deux grosses terres, l'Amérique du nord et celle du sud.

L'amérique latine est plus une entité culturelle qu'autre chose.


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## mplsray

breizh said:


> Je n'en mettrais pas ma main à couper mais je crois bien que oui ; j'ai déjà vu ça quelque part (un livre d'histoire certainement). Oui, "les Amériques" pour parler du continent dans son entier, avec comme idée sous-jacente qu'il y a bien une Amérique du Nord, une Amérique du Sud...et pourquoi pas alors une Amérique Centrale ? Ce qui ramènerait notre compte à 3 Amériques, non ? Mais bizarrement ça sonne faux les trois Amériques. C'est vrai que je crois avoir entendu l'expression "les 2 Amériques", mais "les 3 Amériques" c'est moins sûr... Enfin, là c'est un autre problème n'est-ce-pas ?


 
Dans l'anglais des États-Unis, _Central America_ fait partie du continent (pas sous-continent) de _North America._ Le nom Central America est une sorte de fossile linguistique[1], qui remonte au temps que l'on considérait qu'il n'y avait qu'un continent, _America._

J'ai parlé de l'anglais des États-Unis, mais il me semble que l'idée que North America et South America sont deux continents est maintenant très répandue dans toute l'Anglophonie.

Note : 

[1] Une autre fossile linguistique géographique est employé en parlant de la région des Étas-Unis dans laquelle j'habite : _the Midwest._


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## breizh

Thank you Odrizzt and mplsray for youe explanations. If I have it right, it seems that Central America is not even a sub-continent but more like a cultural division. The fact is that I was taught not to forget Central America at school. I must have developed a fixation with it !


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## emmaD

Amérique, comme Inde, a connu un emploi au pluriel sans rapport avec le nombre de continents. Ca vous a tout de suit un petit côté exotique, "Il est parti aux Amériques", "Je reviens des Indes"...

Du coup, non seulement l'emploi du pluriel, mais aussi le changement de graphie (Amérique*s*) sont parfaitement admis, même si le sens de l'expression a changé (les Amériques regroupant tout en les distinguant celle du Nord et celle du Sud).


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## tie-break

Je pensais à cet exemple:

1492, c'est l'année de la découverte de l'Amérique.  (*ok, ça se dit*)
1492, c'est l'année de la découverte des Amériques.  (*j'en doute*)


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## atcheque

Bonjour,

Y a-t-il (eu) un usage pluriel en anglais ?


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## OLN

Apparemment oui. 

La terminologie_ the Americas_ au pluriel est discutée dans cet article de Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas_(terminology)

Définition : "the geographical landmass comprising North and South America joined by ..." (source)


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## Pedro y La Torre

atcheque said:


> Bonjour,
> 
> Y a-t-il (eu) un usage pluriel en anglais ?



Yes. There is no such continent as "America" in the English-speaking world. America means the United States of America.

North America and South America are separate continents. Central America is a region that is part of the North American continent.


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## atcheque

Merci OLN et Pedro. Je n'ai jamais rencontré _Americas _et je me demandais si l'usage était plus "technique", "spécialisé", qu'en français où cela me semble courant.


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## Jean-Michel Carrère

I am rather surprised at the peremptory character of some of the statements here (such as Pedro's "There is no such continent as "America" in the English-speaking world" and "North America and South America are separate continents").

 I don't think it would be wrong to say, for instance, that many Basque people emigrated to *America* (meaning Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Uruguay, Cuba, Mexico, Venezuela as well as Canada and the United States), would it?


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Hi, J-M C, As you specified it, I'd say"the Americas". Or maybe "the US, Canada, and Latin America (which would include Mexico, technically part of North America)."


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## wildan1

Really what you are talking about is often known over here as _the Western Hemisphere.

_Talking about emigration from Europe in a historical narrative context, often people refer to_ emigrating to the New World._


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## misterk

But we do commonly talk about "foods native to the Americas," "animals native to the Americas," "diseases native to the Americas," etc.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Jean-Michel Carrère said:


> I don't think it would be wrong to say, for instance, that many Basque people emigrated to *America* (meaning Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Uruguay, Cuba, Mexico, Venezuela as well as Canada and the United States), would it?



If you wrote that, people would assume that you meant the United States of America. Therefore, it would be wrong. In English, America = USA; there are probably a few arcane exceptions here and there, but the rule is 99.9 per cent accurate.


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## Nicomon

> *America* usually refers to:
> 
> 
> United States of America, a country in North America
> The Americas, a landmass comprising North and South America





> North America and South America are treated as separate continents in the seven-continent model. However, they may also be viewed as a single continent known as America or the Americas. This viewpoint was common in the United States until World War II, and remains prevalent in some Asian six-continent models. This remains the more common vision in Latin American countries, Spain, Portugal, France, Italy and Greece, where they are taught as a single continent. Source : *Continent*


 I personally would specify  South America if I meant to say  Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Columbia, Uruguay, Venezuala, etc. But if I heard  "Basque people emigrated to America" I wouldn't automatically think USA.  It is the adjective, American, that I associate to USA.

À l'école, on nous apprenait anciennement... 5 continents.  Afrique, Amérique, Asie, Europe, Océanie.   Il n'était même pas question de l'Antartique (non habité) et on ne divisait pas l'Amérique en deux continents. Le logo des Jeux Olympiques correspond à ces 5 continents.


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## london calling

Jean-Michel Carrère said:


> I don't think it would be wrong to say, for instance, that many Basque people emigrated to *America* (meaning Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Uruguay, Cuba, Mexico, Venezuela as well as Canada and the United States), would it?


Hello JMC.

As the others have pointed out, to us 'America' is the USA so yes, this would be wrong (by which I mean nobody would think you were referring to Argentina etc.).

Just as a matter of interest: in Italian 'America' can mean the US plus Argentina etc., just as it can in French.


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## Glasguensis

Jean-Michel Carrère said:


> I don't think it would be wrong to say, for instance, that many Basque people emigrated to *America* (meaning Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Uruguay, Cuba, Mexico, Venezuela as well as Canada and the United States), would it?


Yes I'm afraid it would, for the reasons Pedro has given. You could use "the Americas", or "the New World" if you wanted to include all of those countries, or even "North and South America"


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## Nicomon

It wouldn't be wrong.  Just less specific.  For those who wouldn't have clicked on the "source" link that OLN provided in post 13. 





> *America * noun, can be used to mean* either* the political unit: the United States of America, *or *the geographical land mass comprising North and South America joined by Central America. Canadians and citizens of other American countries may be annoyed if they are referred to as ‘Americans’.
> *(The) Americas *_plural noun_, means the geographical land mass comprising North and South America joined by Central America. This isusually preceded by the definite article and always takes a plural verb.
> *North America *_noun_, consists of Canada, the United States of America (excluding Hawaii) and Mexico.
> *Central America *_noun_, consists of all those states to the south of Mexico and to the north of Colombia.
> *Latin America *_noun_, comprises all the states of South, Central and North America where the principal language is either Spanish or Portuguese, i.e. almost the whole of South and Central America (excluding Suriname, Guyana,French Guiana and Belize), and Mexico.
> *South America *_noun_, comprises all the states to the south of Panama.


  So... all countries that JMC mentioned are indeed part of America, in its larger definition.   
As I wrote above,  I wouldn't say that I'm an American.  Context depending, I either say that I am Canadian or  Québécoise. 
 But I do think that I live in  America  (North, that is).  As a continent.   If I meant USA  I'd say  United States.   

To my knowledge, although you can read it, very few people refer to America / The Americas as  the New World.


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## Glasguensis

Sorry Nicomon, but I disagree. English-speakers do NOT understand "America" to mean "North and South America". So you can use it and it will not be linguistically incorrect, but it will be misunderstood by 100% of native speakers. And in my book that makes it "wrong".


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## wildan1

Outsiders to the Western Hemisphere seem to have a different, more specific usage for _America_ than those of us who live here do. I think it is a distinction by region and reference. 

Like Nicomon, I have never heard a Canadian describe him/herself as _American, _but often hear _"North American"_ (meaning an identity of culture common to the US and Canada; not a nationality). US speakers, on the other hand, don't usually say_ North American_ other than in a geographic context.

_America_, however, is only used to describe the country inside the US to other Americans. Outside, we call our country_ the United States,_ _US_ or _the States._


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## Nicomon

They may NOT understand it as such, but the fact remains that Canada is in indeed in (North) America.   Both USA and Canada are part of (North) America. 

 If I were to move to California,  I wouldn't say that I'm moving to America.  I'd say that I'm moving to the (United) States. 

 I wrote it before... I would specify "South" if I meant  Argentina, Chile, etc.  But in my book,  America is a continent, not a country.

 So... let's agree to disagree. 

*Edit :* I just read your post, Wildan.  I think you and I are in agreement.


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## UpNSmoKe

*Cela dépend de celui qui va lire.

1. "L'Amérique" peut, chez certaines personnes, vouloir dire "les Etats-Unis", ce qui révèle l'ignorance totale de celui qui parle.
2. "L'Amérique" peut vouloir dire l'Amérique toute entière, englobant les deux Amériques, les Caraïbes, l'Amérique latine, etc.
3. "Les Amériques" constitue pour moi une forme marquée de ma définition numéro 2, tout comme l'est le terme "les étasuniens" (forme marquée) pour "Américains" (forme non marquée).*


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## Glasguensis

wildan1 said:


> _America_, however, is only used to describe the country inside the US to other Americans. Outside, we call our country_ the United States,_ _US_ or _the States._


Perhaps you underestimate the cultural impact of US movies and TV series on the rest of the English-speaking world. You are unintentionally broadcasting this use of America / American to the outside world all the time. To take one example, the song "America" from West Side Story, where it is used (by people from the Americas) to mean the USA.

In my book, Nicomon, America is two continents. Nobody is denying that Canada (and for that matter Mexico) are in North America - the question is whether "America" on its own is usd to mean both North and South America


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## Nicomon

I can't help it if I went to school in the remote years when they told us that there were  5 continents + Antartica.   America being divided into  North and South (joined by Central).  
Same as the first definition in post #24 (after "or"), also referred to as  The Americas.    You may also want to read the second quote in post #21. 

 I guess someone will have to rethink the *Olympics logo.    

*All I'm saying (or repeating) is that if I mean to say  United States, I don't say America.


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## Pedro y La Torre

Nicomon said:


> So... let's agree to disagree.



I'm afraid that won't do Nicomon. Every native English speaker I have ever come across agrees on this: America = the United States of America and an American is someone from the United States of America. It is wrong to teach learners otherwise.

I'm surprised to learn that (French) Canadians consider America to be a continent, but I am certain that English-speaking Canadians would never use "America" to refer to North America.

In English you simply cannot use America in the sense JMC used it and hope to be understood.


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## Jean-Michel Carrère

The (English edition) Wikipedia article on "continent" is quite enlightening as it explains the differences in what is taught at school regarding continents worldwide, especially this bit :



The seven-continent model _(considering North America and South America as two separate continents)_ is usually taught in China, India, the Philippines, parts of Western Europe and *most English-speaking countries.*


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