# 怨妇



## yuechu

大家好！

I heard the word 怨妇 on a 电视剧 today. Does anyone know what this words means? (I couldn't find it in the dictionary)
Thanks!


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## osmazome

Hi
  It means "a mardy women", for the definition of "mardy", you can see Urban Dictionary: mardy
  And in chinese, a women become "mardy" for lots of reasons, a primary one is that she isn't get along good with her husband, perhaps he cheat her, abondonner her, bla bla bla...

Hope this can help you


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## Skatinginbc

It depends on the context, Baosheng, which you are supposed to provide.  It could mean a bereaved widow, an abandoned wife, or anything that combines the meanings of 怨 (adj, 哀愁的, 不滿的, 懷恨的, 愛埋怨的) and 婦 (noun, 已嫁女子, 妻, or 女性通稱)


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## yuechu

OK! Thanks, osmazome and Skatinginbc!


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## JJJenifer

Well, for calling a bereaved widow, we use "寡婦", never 怨妇.

怨妇 for me, is more like a wife who feels unsatisfied because her husband fails to function well as a husband mentally and psysically.


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## retrogradedwithwind

I agree with jenifer. 怨妇 has a fixed meaning that is 哀怨的妇人. Of course she  could be 哀怨的 because of a manifest of reasons.


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## Skatinginbc

JJJenifer said:


> Well, for calling a bereaved widow, we use "寡婦", never 怨妇.


An example of 怨妇 meaning 寡婦: 有人甚至稱芙林達本為「怨婦之城」或「寡婦城」。據報導，現在每天仍有許多被趕出家門的寡婦來芙林達本朝聖。她們中的多數人來到這裡後，就剃光了頭髮，或在神廟周圍住下來修行，或沿街乞討，至死不再回鄉。


retrogradedwithwind said:


> 怨妇 has a fixed meaning that is 哀怨的妇人. Of course she  could be 哀怨的 because of a manifest of reasons.


《漢典》 怨妇: 丧夫或丈夫别离很久的妇人. ==> 怨 in 怨妇 is interpreted by 《漢典》 as "别离", NOT "哀怨的".  Look it up!!  I'm not kidding.  It is listed under the definition of "别离".  Surprise!
《汉语大词典》第10053页 第7卷 451: 怨婦: 喪夫或丈夫別離很久的婦人。
《高級漢語詞典》 怨婦: 喪夫或丈夫別離很久的婦人.
《國語辭典》 怨婦: 喪夫；或與丈夫久別的婦人。

寡婦 means literally "獨居的婦女" (《廣雅·釋詁》 寡, 獨也; 獨守空閨的婦人, e.g., 三國魏· 陳琳《飲馬長城窟行》 邊城多健兒,內舍多寡婦) and figuratively "死了丈夫的女子, 喪夫的婦人".  When we talk about its "fixed meaning", we usually refer to its meaning as an idiom or fixed expression (i.e., 寡婦 = "喪夫的婦人, 死了丈夫的女子"), irrespective of the literal meanings of the morphemes in it.

By the same token, one of the many possible literal meanings of 怨婦 is "哀怨的妇人", and it could mean figuratively "丧夫或丈夫别离很久的妇人".  When we talk about its "fixed" meaning, I would assume it refers to its meaning as an idiom or fixed expression (i.e., 怨婦 = "喪夫的婦人, 或與丈夫別離很久的婦人"), irrespective of the literal meanings of the morphemes in it.


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## retrogradedwithwind

I don't think 怨 could mean 别离, and I found this paper just now.
http://m.doc88.com/p-7485435624459.html

Well my reason to negate it is that I have never seen that meaning before. It's too strange for me.

From that paper we could come to a conclusion that most scholars just saw 怨 in 怨妇 as 哀怨的怨恨的 so they said 多怨妇积怨妇


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## JJJenifer

Hi, Skatinginbc,

About the definition of "寡婦", we both agree it means "widow" 
but I don't agree "寡婦 means literally "獨居的婦女"". 
寡 can mean "獨" for sure, but when it goes with "居(living somewhere)", 
it is another thing. You know, a widow can live with family still. 
But it is not the point here. 

About the definition about "怨婦", please also check  怨婦- 台灣Wiki
You can see the definition and also some poems about "怨婦". In the poems, "怨婦s' " husbands were far away for battles or for fighting for better life or some other reasons and coulldn't be with the lonely wives.   

About 有人甚至稱芙林達本為「怨婦之城」, I've checked the paragraph and I found that it is written like
_近年來媒體披露了一些令人觸目驚心的內幕，有人甚至稱芙林達本為「怨婦之城」或「寡婦城」。_
If we don't know if some unhappy wives could also run away from their homes and stay in the viliage,
we can not judge if the _ "怨婦" _is used to call widows in the articles, can we?

I've never heard or read "怨婦" used to call widow neither in modern nor in some old articles. 
It will be a good idea to ask where the definitions have come from.


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> I don't think 怨 could mean 别离


《文選·陳琳＜為袁紹檄豫州＞》 怨曠思歸，流涕北顧。
呂延濟注：怨，別；曠，久也。
Although incorrect analysis of a phrase (say, 怨曠 was wrongly analyzed) by a prominent scholar is certainly possible, it is extremely unlikely that 呂延濟 of the Tang dynasty would make it all up without any justifications.  Even if the 怨 in 怨曠 turns out to mean something other than 別, I have to take him at his word that 怨 as a morpheme meaning 別 "separated" existed in certain ancient Sinitic dialect, especially when it _does_ have some Sino-Tibetan grounds (e.g., Chepang _weŋh_- 'separated by death, straying, etc.', _weŋ_- 'to stray, separate from', etc.).

怨女: "剩女", 已屆婚齡欲嫁，但卻無婚嫁對象的女子.
'leave 離, separate 別, abandon 棄, leave behind, remain 剩; divorced, widowed' ==> Many of the Tibeto-Burman words from this set of semantics actually sound alike, and so I would not be surprised if they were rendered in Chinese as 怨 in ancient times.
唐吳少微《怨歌行》： 城南有怨婦, 含怨倚蘭叢 ==> abandoned wife
明何景明《流螢篇詩》: 誰家怨婦縫縑素，當窗忽見流螢度。蟋蟀床空寶瑟寒，鴛鴦機暗孤燈暮。 螢飛螢度自年年，卻笑明珠按劍前。莫言腐草無生意，莫道寒灰不再然。==> 寡婦渴望第二春.  怨婦 = 寡婦 = 獨守空閨的婦人


JJJenifer said:


> But it is not the point here.


My point was about a semantic analogy between 寡婦 and 怨婦. 


JJJenifer said:


> please also check  怨婦- 台灣Wiki


I never denied that "怨婦" has other meanings.  Please check #3.


JJJenifer said:


> If we don't know if some unhappy wives could also run away from their homes and stay in the viliage, we can not judge if the _ "_怨婦_" _is used to call widows in the articles, can we?


The article mainly discusses the social rejection of widows in certain part of India, so I don't think your "unhappy wife" interpretation would be a good fit here.  怨婦 has multiple meanings, and I think besides evocation of its "wretched woman" connotation, the author also intended to cover the meaning of "widows" with 怨婦.


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## brofeelgood

If this was a 时装剧, it's probably referring to a bitter and spiteful woman who:
1) is single, desperate and unwanted.
2) hates everything around her. 
3) blames everyone for how shitty her life is.

In a contemporary setting, I can't imagine it being anything else.


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## retrogradedwithwind

I accept the opinion that 怨妇（怨女） means 寡妇 or 剩女. But I still think “怨，別；曠，久也” is a wrong interpretation.

The two 怨妇s in those two poems are not necessarily 寡妇 or abandoned wife, and in the opposite they quite tally with my traditional understanding. Those two wives are two unhappy women because they cannot get love from their husbands or their masters.


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> But I still think “怨，別；曠，久也” is a wrong interpretation


我是說：我相信呂延濟對各字的定義肯定有根據, 不會憑空捏造。但我也相信他或任何學者都有可能會分析錯誤。 「怨曠」有可能不是「久別」的意思, 就好像說「別, 離也」確切是有根據, 但把「別人」 (as in 別人的東西)分析成「離人」就不對了。不管呂延濟對「怨曠」這個詞有沒有分析錯誤, 他說「怨, 別也」, 我就相信那絕非無中生有。對我而言, 他的話就是古代「怨」可作「別」解的鐵證。

"There is nothing left for me" ==> "left" (剩 as in _leftover_) is the past participle of "leave" (留 as in "_leave behind_").  Likewise, "怨" (剩; Compare: Chepang _weŋ_- 'to separate', _weŋh_- 'separated' ==> with a suffix *-h, corresponding to Old Chinese *-s > *-h > Middle Chinese 去聲--"怨"的去聲是有道理的) is likely the past participle of "leave" (also meaning 離 as in "_Don't leave me_").  張青松的論文把怨解為「蘊」"store, amass" 是有根據, 但如前所說, 有根據不一定等於分析正確。我覺得張青松從「蘊積」引申到「多餘」, 再引申為「剩(女)」, 有點牽強, 更重要的是, 那樣只能解釋「剩女」, 無法解釋他列出的其他意思(e.g., 女無夫).  無夫之女未必就是嫁不出去的剩女。相比之下, 我倒覺得呂延濟的解釋點出了一個較合理的字根--"leave".  由這個字根(root)衍生了許多發音類似的字 (words that mean "leave", "separate", "separated", "divorced", "abandon", "abandoned", "leftover" 剩女的"剩", "leave behind", 遺腹子或遺妻的"遺", "widowed", etc.), 音譯成漢語, 均可為「怨」.


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## retrogradedwithwind

怨通蕴，蕴藏之意。皇帝把几千几万个女人搜罗深宫里，外面自然就有人娶不到老婆，所谓旷夫鳏夫就多了。深宫里的女人守活寡，也就是寡妇旷女了。

后世用怨妇这词，多半就是取的这个意思。男人另结新欢，女人空守深闺嘛。说来这也是后世大多不知道怨蕴相通，只取怨之恚意。

吕延济的说法是信口开河，全是臆测。也不见其他地方有见怨作别解的。是个孤例。


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## Skatinginbc

怨女 "剩女" vs. 怨婦 "棄婦, 遺婦"


retrogradedwithwind said:


> 吕延济的说法是信口开河，全是臆测。也不见其他地方有见怨作别解的。是个孤例。


漢典不就把怨曠和怨婦的怨, 同解為「別」嗎？ 好, 就算是孤例, 那也不能說明呂延濟是信口開河。譬如我說「卡」(as in 卡車)乃「車也」, 是英文 car 的音譯. 此乃孤例, 但絕非信口開河。
In addition, 通蘊的那個怨是上聲。「怨婦」的怨是上聲還是去聲？


retrogradedwithwind said:


> The two 怨妇s in those two poems are not necessarily 寡妇 or abandoned wife.


Let's take the first poem as an example (given that it is the earliest attestation of 怨婦 that I can find):
唐吴少微《怨歌行》城南有怨婦,含怨倚蘭叢。自謂二八時。歌舞入漢宮皇恩弄幸玉堂中。綠陌黃花催夜酒,錦衣羅被逐春風。建章西宮煥若神,燕趙美女二千人。君王厭德不忘新，況羣豔冶紛來陳。  是時別君不再見，三十三春長信殿。長信重門晝掩關，清房曉帳幽且閑。  綺窗蟲網氛塵色，文軒鶯對桃李顏。天王貴宮不貯老，浩然淚隕今來還。 自憐轉晚暮，試逐佳遊芳草路。小腰麗女奪人奇，金鞍少年曾不顧（有逸句）。  歸來誰爲夫。請謝西家婦，莫辭先醉解羅襦。

天王貴宮不貯老，浩然淚隕今來還 ==> 還? 還哪兒?
歸來誰爲夫 ==> 歸? 歸哪兒?
城南有怨婦, 含怨倚蘭叢, 自謂二八時... ==> 她現在在哪兒? 自謂? 與誰說話? Obviously, 她被遣散出宮了, 被拋棄了.  She was abandoned!!
天王貴宮不貯老，浩然淚隕今來還 ==> 既然她"不被貯", 城南的"怨婦"又怎麼可能是「蘊藏的婦人」? 明明相反, 是不被蘊藏的婦人!!
城南有怨婦, 含怨倚蘭叢 ==> If 怨 in 怨婦 means 哀怨(哀愁), why did the poet immediately and redundantly repeat 怨 in 含怨 (or reiterate the notion of 愁 in 含愁, which appears in other versions of the poem)?  This leads me to believe that it is a construction similar to 北京有黑客, 黑心竊帳款 ==> The first 黑 "hack" is not the same as the second 黑 "dark".  To me, it suggests a word play (if the original phrase in the poem is 含怨) or a reanalysis of the term (if the original phrase is 含愁).


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## retrogradedwithwind

其实古人信口开河胡说八道的时候多了，没必要觉得多奇怪。我说是孤例，是因为太罕见了，几乎不见于他处。当然我也没掌握多少材料，只是个人阅读体会而已。

先秦时候汉语是不是只有四声都不好说，音调不太需要考虑。

那首诗，是写被遣散的老宫女的。宫中才多怨妇嘛。自谓二字是古诗惯用手法，就是插叙一段过往罢了。白居易琵琶行，自言本是京城女，同此。注意题目是怨歌行。三个怨字或许有异，但很难证明的。因为下文还有“三十三春长信殿”，显然也是怨的内容。


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## Skatinginbc

三十三春長信殿 ==> 長信殿和冷宮一樣, 都是被拋棄(abandoned)的表徵。

怨歌行 ==> 說不定這個怨有抱怨發牢騷的意思, 跟下兩個怨不同。

怨女的怨似乎是積存不用, 多餘的意思, 特別是那些「不嘗御」(未曾被臨幸)的宮中女子。既從未被臨幸過, 就談不上男人另結新歡。

怨婦的怨是積存不用 (hold in STORE 蘊) 還是擱置不用 (LEFT aside), 我就不清楚了。


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## retrogradedwithwind

怨女，先秦是用如蕴女。后人无知，不解此意，用法大多和今天通常概念上的怨妇一样。

被打入冷宫可没有被抛弃，只是被冷处理了——不闻不问。


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 被打入冷宫可没有被抛弃，只是被冷处理了——不闻不问。


Emotional abandonment is a subjective emotional state in which people feel undesired, left behind, insecure, or discarded.


retrogradedwithwind said:


> 怨女，先秦是用如蕴女。后人无知，不解此意


I think it still depends on the context, Retro.
怨女曠男: 怨 (積而棄; 怨, 積也, 棄也) vs. 曠 (空而廢; 師古曰：曠，空也，廢也) 
《韓非子·外儲說右下》 管仲曰： "畜積有腐棄之財，則人飢餓；宮中有怨女，則民無妻。" ==> This 怨 seems to mean "多藏不用" as in 劉向《說苑》 "多藏不用是謂怨府, 故物不可聚也".  It contrasts with the 曠 (荒廢, 空而廢) as in "曠課", "曠職", "曠日廢時", and 《孟子．離婁上》 "曠安宅而弗居，舍正路而不由，哀哉".
Thus 《孟子梁惠王下》： 內無怨女，外無曠夫 ==> 內無積棄之女，外無空廢之夫
劉向《說苑》 "其妻怒而去之，臣笑其曠也。" ==> 笑其被廢(空廢, 荒廢).
And thus 內積怨女 in 《後漢書‧周舉傳》 "內積怨女， 外有曠夫" ==> 宫內積藏擱棄不用(擱在那裡爛掉)的女人, 外面就有被空廢, 被荒廢的男人. 
晋葛洪 《抱朴子‧诘鲍》 内聚曠女, 外多鳏男 ==> 宫內聚積被荒廢不用的女人。

Another context:
男怨女曠 (男的離去, 女的失落): 怨, 別也, 男的服役離去了, 女的在家獨守空閨
 西漢毛亨《毛詩序·邶風·雄雉》 軍旅數起，大夫久役，男女怨曠.
西漢毛亨《毛詩序·小雅·采綠》 刺怨曠也。幽王之時，多怨曠者也。正義曰： 錄之於《雅》者，以怨曠者為行役過時，是王政之失，故錄之以刺王也。
唐·颜浚: 東怔遼海，使天下男怨女曠，父寡子孤。
宋智圓《閒居編》 吾疑役鬼之說非當時男怨女曠之辭

Thus 《文選·陳琳＜為袁紹檄豫州＞》 怨曠思歸，流涕北顧。
呂延濟注：怨，別也。 In this particular context (怨曠思歸), 曠 could be interpreted as 久 (《篇海》曠, 久也; also 呂延濟注：曠, 久也).


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## retrogradedwithwind

有点自相矛盾的。如怨为别旷为久，则男怨女旷显然错误。男别女久？这里怨旷须同为谓词，不能解作久别。

其实就取怨为恚旷为空的常用字义，汉以后的词语都可以解释，没必要硬造一个罕见的别意。


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## Skatinginbc

呂延濟說「曠」可當「久」解, 是在「怨曠思歸」這個語境下, 而非「怨女曠男」 或「男怨女曠」的語境下。「怨」和「曠」都是多義字, 該怎麼解釋得看語境。譬如「男怨女曠」我認為是「男離家人, 女守空閨」的意思。

「硬造一個罕見的別意」, 話中似乎帶有主觀成見。首先, 怎麼知道那是無中生有「編造」的？ 其次, 怎麼能夠確定那樣解釋對古人而言很不順, 很勉強生硬？ 在比較過許多漢藏語系的語言之後, 我個人認為「曠」有「久」的含義, 是相當自然的一件事。當然, 如前所說, 我認為呂延濟也可能會分析錯誤。重點不在「怨曠」的「曠」是不是「久」, 而是「怨婦」的「怨」有無「別」的意思。

「怨婦」一詞見於唐朝。唐宋流行的「男怨女曠」及 唐代呂延濟的註釋, 都指向「離別」的可能性。「城南有怨婦」的那個怨婦, 一會兒「還」啊, 一會兒「歸」啊, 這些遣散歸鄉的動作, 不就是「離別」嗎？

不顧語境, 不理語言變遷或方言差異, 硬要把孟子的「怨女」和吳少微的「怨婦」扯在一快的話, 我認為會很牽強。


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## retrogradedwithwind

别只看怨妇。怨女更常见。下面这句，怨女三千放出宫。至于什么还归之类，就是宫女被遣散，和离别一点关系没有。这类诗唐代一堆堆的，可以多找几首读读。

已经说过很多次了，先秦的怨女和汉以后的不一样。不一样。不一样。
先秦是怨女通蕴女。汉以后大部分人都是＊＊，不懂这个，他们用的怨女就是今天一般理解的怨女。
这不一样。不一样！

吕的解释之所以荒谬，既在于他不懂怨蕴相通，也在于他随意解释，硬生生添了个离别的新意。这个解释几乎仅见。而以怨旷最常见的意义来理解男女怨旷，也不是不通。何必添个新意？！

Skating 你该不会认为我觉得吴少微的怨妇也是蕴妇吧？没这事。汉以后的人既然读不懂蕴女，当然也不会这么用。后世的怨妇就是今天怨妇的意思。


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 别只看怨妇。怨女更常见。


你這不就把「怨婦」和「怨女」硬扯在一起了嗎？  不說別的, 「婦」和「女」就是不同語境。前者多指嫁過的, 後者多指「未嘗御」(未被皇帝臨幸過)的, 或未嫁的。更何況「怨女」對唐人而言是古代就有的固定詞, 其定義也會比較固定。

我指的「離別」是separation, 不是departure.


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## retrogradedwithwind

女妇这俩字没那么大区别。基本属于可同义替换的那类。


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## Skatinginbc

不!  你讀韓非子就知道, 被放出宮的「怨女」是沒被臨幸過的, 是積存不用(沒被用過)的。「婦」被用過了, 就比較容易脫離「蘊」的意思。

「婦」被愛過, 因此容易和「離棄」聯結一起。

另外, 你提到「以怨曠最常見的意義來解釋」, 請問, ,怨曠最常見的意義是什麼？


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## retrogradedwithwind

怨，恚。旷，空。

少女少妇这种区别有，但这里真的不重要。这句，怨女鸾孤来绕枕，征夫马健不离鞍，显然就是怨妇。


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## Skatinginbc

這不正支持我一直強調的語境?  「怨女三千放出宮」的「怨女」, 和「怨女鸞孤來繞枕」的「怨女」是不同的「怨女」。前者是傳統的, 宮裡多餘的「怨女」, 後者是與君分離的, 做夢都會夢到「鸞孤」(夫妻分離)的「怨女」. 這個唐朝與君分離的「怨女」, 如你所說, 顯然就是「怨婦」--唐朝與君分離的「怨婦」.  這個分離的「怨」也就是唐朝呂延濟所說的「別」(separated).

與怨婦相通的那個怨女, 與「征夫」結構對仗。不與怨婦相通的尋常怨女(as in 怨女三千放出宮), 與「死囚」結構對仗。之前我提過, 怨婦的怨是個 participle, 是個動詞變化衍字。相同地, 征夫的征也是個participle, 是個動詞變化衍字.  含怨或心中有怨的怨是名詞, 判了死刑的死也是個名詞。換句話說, 怨婦的怨是動詞型式(過去分詞如 separated, abandoned), 尋常怨女(= 嫁不出去的女人, 多餘的宮女, 含怨的女子)的怨不是直接的動詞變化, 而是經過了複雜演化過程而來的形容詞, 或是由名詞演化而來的形容詞。

與怨婦相通的那個怨女, 也與「征夫」意義上對仗。征, 遠行也, 怨, 久別也, 非常對稱, 這不就符合呂延濟給的註解嗎？ 怎說其無中生有, 憑空捏造？


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## retrogradedwithwind

孤例孤例孤例

除了怨女怨旷之外，你再找找怨作别解的例子。找到两三个我就认。

至于怨女，怨作别解作恚解都通。但是，孤例孤例孤例。


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## Skatinginbc

retrogradedwithwind said:


> 除了怨女怨旷之外，你再找找怨作别解的例子。找到两三个我就认。


說話算數? 那你得認:
1. 怨婦: 與君別離的婦人 (e.g., 城南有怨婦).
2. 怨女: 與君別離的女子 (e.g., 怨女鸞孤來繞枕).
3. 男怨: 男的久別親人 (e.g., 男怨女曠，父寡子孤).
4. 怨曠: 久別親人 (e.g., 怨曠思歸，流涕北顧).


retrogradedwithwind said:


> 至于怨女，怨作别解作恚解都通。


是嗎?  怨女(與君久別的女子)鸞孤來繞枕, 征夫馬健不離鞍 ==> 好詩
Compare: 怨女(恚, 怨恨、憤怒的女子)鸞孤來繞枕, 征夫馬健不離鞍 ==> 好爛的詩


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## retrogradedwithwind

我说孤例是指怨旷怨妇这一系列词之外的例子。比如出现个“你我怨时”之类的。

怨女，是怨恨分别的女子。或者，怨作形容词，因分别而哀怨的女子。


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## wuge

AT this time ！this word we chinese people usually means：woman doesn't be liked / woman who  always grumble


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