# Pronuciation of רעיון



## Zeevdovtarnegolet

Sometimes I am not so sure with Nikkud, even though I can read them basically.  So this word is written thus : רַעְיוֹן                                                             


I always get confused with this: עְ nikkud on the ayin because sometimes it seems to represent a shwa, other times an "e" as in end.  Is this word pronounced ra'eyon or just ra'yon.  I guess I am asking if there are more than 2 vowels in this word.


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## Tamar

It's pronounced [r*a'a*yon], there are three vowels. The two first ones are both an [a] sound, not [a] and then [e]. 

Btw, there's [r*e'a*yon] which means ראיון interview. ראיון is also many times pronounced [r*a'a*yon], just like רעיון. You can tell by context of course...


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

Tamar said:


> It's pronounced [r*a'a*yon], there are three vowels. The two first ones are both an [a] sound, not [a] and then [e].
> 
> Btw, there's [r*e'a*yon] which means ראיון interview. ראיון is also many times pronounced [r*a'a*yon], just like רעיון. You can tell by context of course...



That's why I am confused!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you hehe.  They are two different words.  What is the stress for the "idea" ra'ayon.  Is it ra'aYON or ra'Ayon?


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## Tamar

Unfortunatley, the stress on both רעיון and ראיון is the same:
*ra'aYON*

A friend of mine wrote me a text msg yesterday about a girl who came to her work to be interviewed:
הבחורה שהיתה ברעיון 

It's the exact same pronunciation for both.


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

wow! What a confusing thing lol


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## OsehAlyah

Zeevdovtarnegolet said:


> I always get confused with this: עְ nikkud on the ayin because sometimes it seems to represent a shwa, other times an "e" as in end.


Have you read about the difference between Shwa Nah and Shwa Na yet? The Nah is the silent one the Na is the voiced one. Lots of discussion on both here in the archives and the web. The only problem is searching for it in English may require using different spellings Shwa, Shva, Sheva and such. Anyway, here's a link to one explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shva


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## Tamar

In *MH*, shva nah נח is not *pronounced *- phonetically there's no sound there. 

Shva na נע  - is an *[e]* sound, and we only have one of that.

To take two examples from the site: בני ברק is pronounced [bnei brak]
ברית Is pronounced [brit]

I don't think that web page explains MH. The pronunciation of Modern Hebrew is *very *far from its writing.


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## OsehAlyah

Tamar said:


> I don't think that web page explains MH. The pronunciation of Modern Hebrew is *very *far from its writing.


Thank you Tamar. I went ahead and changed the link. Hope it does a better job.


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

OsehAlyah said:


> Have you read about the difference between Shwa Nah and Shwa Na yet? The Nah is the silent one the Na is the voiced one. Lots of discussion on both here in the archives and the web. The only problem is searching for it in English may require using different spellings Shwa, Shva, Sheva and such. Anyway, here's a link to one explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shva




Thank you - very helpful!


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

Tamar said:


> In *MH*, shva nah נח is not *pronounced *- phonetically there's no sound there.
> 
> Shva na נע  - is an *[e]* sound, and we only have one of that.
> 
> To take two examples from the site: בני ברק is pronounced [bnei brak]
> ברית Is pronounced [brit]
> 
> I don't think that web page explains MH. The pronunciation of Modern Hebrew is *very *far from its writing.



There is only one nikkud sign for all the various shwas though right?


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## Egmont

Zeevdovtarnegolet said:


> There is only one nikkud sign for all the various shwas though right?


Right: two dots, one above the other.


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

Egmont said:


> Right: two dots, one above the other.



The system of Nikkud leaves a lot to be desired!  It doesn't seem to be able to indicate word stress either.  Oh well.


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## Egmont

Zeevdovtarnegolet said:


> The system of Nikkud leaves a lot to be desired!  It doesn't seem to be able to indicate word stress either.  Oh well.


Written English* doesn't show word stress either, does it? How is one to figure out that "permit" is stressed on the first syllable when it's a noun, on the second when it's a verb? Lots of uneducated native English speakers get that one wrong.

__________________________
*Or any other written language with which I'm familiar, but those are all European languages with the single exception of Hebrew, so I don't think it's enough of a sample to draw any universal conclusions.


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## Tamar

OseAlyah, that's a much better link 



> How is one to figure out that "permit" is stressed on the first syllable when it's a noun, on the second when it's a verb? Lots of uneducated native English speakers get that one wrong.


Really?!


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## Egmont

Tamar said:


> ...Really?!


Yes.

I have a building *PER*-mit from the city to construct an addition to my home.

I will per-*MIT* you to access this file on my server.


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

Egmont said:


> Written English* doesn't show word stress either, does it? How is one to figure out that "permit" is stressed on the first syllable when it's a noun, on the second when it's a verb? Lots of uneducated native English speakers get that one wrong.
> 
> __________________________
> *Or any other written language with which I'm familiar, but those are all European languages with the single exception of Hebrew, so I don't think it's enough of a sample to draw any universal conclusions.




I know.  But still it's a valid comment.  LOL  You would think that people trying to document how a language would be pronounced after it had been lost as a living language would find it necessary to indicate word stress in that system too ;0


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## Tamar

> I have a building PER-mit from the city to construct an addition to my home.
> 
> I will per-MIT you to access this file on my server.


Haha, thanks, but what was strange to me was that there are native English speakers who don't know the difference.  
But then again, there are native Hebrew speakers who don't know such things in Hebrew. 
Don't why it surprised me. 



> You would think that people trying to document how a language would be pronounced after it had been lost as a living language would find it necessary to indicate word stress in that system too


And to use a system to mark vowels that were valid who knows when and who knows how to pronounce them makes sense? Wouldn't you think it better to give up some of the nikkud, since we don't have all those vowels anymore....(it's tradition, מה לעשות...)
Maybe that's why no one ever thought of marking stress. Besides, how could you mark stress if there are two kinds of them and they are both correct? Think of the amount of time and energy put in to it.

Hebrew's crazy


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## Zeevdovtarnegolet

Speaking of native US speakers, I can tell you that there are a lot of poorly educated people here, due to our rather unimpressive public school system and limited financial focus on education as a whole.  There would be many such people here who would not know the difference, or mark it in speech.




Tamar said:


> Haha, thanks, but what was strange to me was that there are native English speakers who don't know the difference.
> But then again, there are native Hebrew speakers who don't know such things in Hebrew.
> Don't why it surprised me.
> 
> 
> And to use a system to mark vowels that were valid who knows when and who knows how to pronounce them makes sense? Wouldn't you think it better to give up some of the nikkud, since we don't have all those vowels anymore....(it's tradition, מה לעשות...)
> Maybe that's why no one ever thought of marking stress. Besides, how could you mark stress if there are two kinds of them and they are both correct? Think of the amount of time and energy put in to it.
> 
> Hebrew's crazy




It is crazy!


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## OsehAlyah

Tamar said:


> Haha, thanks, but what was strange to me was that there are native English speakers who don't know the difference.
> But then again, there are native Hebrew speakers who don't know such things in Hebrew.
> Don't why it surprised me.


The confusion only really happens with the noun form, as it is pronounced with both accents. With the letter e going through its transformation for the given stress point.


Zeevdovtarnegolet said:


> I know.  But still it's a valid  comment.  LOL  You would think that people trying to document how a  language would be pronounced after it had been lost as a living language  would find it necessary to indicate word stress in that system too  ;0


Languages are living entities, and as such evolve and transform. Consider English, for example even now in our lifetime, with multiple cultural influences the language changes and either expands or contracts.
Hebrew is likewise, it has in fact been spoken, not my the majority of Jewish populace, but that is not necessarily a prerequisite for a language to be alive and in use. And Hebrew also has gone through a transformation over that period of time, just like it did during Biblical time, and just like it is doing now in modern times. So what I'm trying to say is documenting accents or even vowel pronunciations may only be valid for that one snapshot in history.
BTW if you want to train your ear to hear Hebrew many Israeli TV and Radio stations have material available online for you to listen to over the internet. Also, there's a sticky at the top of the forum that lists many other Hebrew teaching resources.


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## JAN SHAR

Actually, the reason for this pronunciation is probably because it is a loanword from Aramaic רַעְיוֹן. You see that there is a shwa not a composite shwa under the עין


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## Drink

JAN SHAR said:


> Actually, the reason for this pronunciation is probably because it is a loanword from Aramaic רַעְיוֹן. You see that there is a shwa not a composite shwa under the עין


I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Both in Judeo-Aramaic and in Hebrew, the vowel can be either a silent schwa or a chataf-patach.


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