# A place to mourn: too much to ask?



## giovannino

This suggestion of mine was prompted by the recent, sad loss of two valued members at IE: Vittorio52, a well-known actor and Kittykate (Caterina), the gentlest, sweetest creature ever, who died in tragic circumstances at only 44. One mod created a locked (ie nobody else was able to contribute) thread in which she paid a loving tribute to Vittorio and Caterina (but the thread was only there for a few days).
I got round the lamentable lack of a suitable, permanent place for such tributes by posting what was also a genuine language query:
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1871149

We celebrate postiversaries. Don't we owe it to members who contributed not only their considerable language skills but also their great humanity to this community to create a subforum where we can honour their memory? I think we do.


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## Paulfromitaly

We're talking over your suggestion.
Please be patient


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## giovannino

No problem, Paul. I've been poring over this myself since Caterina passed away in early May so I fully realize that the matter deserves careful consideration.
And while I am heartened by the over 200 views I must admit I am disappointed by forer@s just viewing the thread without expressing their personal views on what I believe is a legitimate, humane suggestion.


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## LMorland

I'll chime in here to say that "a place to mourn" is always needed in any community.  And WR is a community as much as any other.  I've been a member for four years now, and I've naturally come to know -- both through their posts and often through PMs -- a number of the more frequent contributors on the French-English Forum (some of whom have gone on to become Mods).

Of course, I never knew Vittorio52 and Kittykate (Caterina), but I'm very sorry for your loss.  I know I'd be grief stricken if any of my contacts on the Forum were to die.

Which brings up the question: _how does one know when we've lost an active member? _ If, God forbid, I should pass away, how would my contacts on the Forum ever find out?   

(A related story: the first Vélib death occurred just a few metres away from my apartment in Paris, and the next day "MissRapunzel" sent me an IM.  She was concerned because we'd exchanged PMs, and so she knew where I lived and that I ride the Vélib. I was so touched by her concern!)

I'll check back to see what the moderators have chosen as a solution.


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## bondia

LMorland said:


> Of course, I never knew Vittorio52 and Kittykate (Caterina), but I'm very sorry for your loss.
> I second that, please accept my condolences
> I know I'd be grief stricken if any of my contacts on the Forum were to die.
> I second that,too
> 
> Which brings up the question: _how does one know when we've lost an active member? _If, God forbid, I should pass away, how would my contacts on the Forum ever find out?
> 
> Strangely enough, I was thinking about this just the other day, but didn't know how/where to ask the question. Thanks LMorland.
> 
> I'll check back to see what the moderators have chosen as a solution.
> Me, too


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## giovannino

Your chiming in is highly appreciated, LMorland. It is good to hear that you share my feeling that that there should be "a place to mourn" members who are no longer with us. 
Actually I know I am not the only member who has gone on to develop a close friendship with other members, to the point that, after exchanging emails and talking on the phone, we finally met in person and our friendship extended well beyond the scope of this forum. So if any of these friends should, God forbid, pass away, I would find out from mutual friends or from relatives. With Caterina, I was told by her boyfriend. Through Facebook, I have since got to know her family and friends. Sharing our memories of her is a way for us to keep her alive in our hearts. I told her friends and relatives about WR and they were able to read her posts. They were particularly moved by the words she wrote to me a few months before dying and thanked me for sharing them:

"La precarietà della vita e la velocità con cui le cose possono cambiare sono sconcertanti. Lo dico a te perché lo dico a me stessa: cerchiamo di vivere facendo una carezza in più piuttosto che una in meno, e sforziamoci di apprezzare quello che abbiamo, quando ce l'abbiamo. "

My translation (which does not come close to matching the original):

I find the precariousness of life and the way things can change abruptly disconcerting. I'm telling you this because it's what I keep telling myself: let's try to live our lives making one gesture of kindness too many rather than one too few and let's strive to appreciate what we have, while we still have it

EDIT: Bondia, I only saw your post after mine appeared


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Hello,



giovannino said:


> [...] I must admit I am disappointed by forer@s just viewing the thread without expressing their personal views [...]


Don't. Sometimes silence is just respect and agreement. 
I'm always worrying when someone is missing here: fortunately we see them back most of the time.
I'm sorry for your our loss.


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## giovannino

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> I'm sorry for your our loss.



Thank you so much, KaRiNe_Fr. And you're right about silence. From one of my favourite songs:"If language were liquid it would be rushing in/Instead here we are in a silence more eloquent/Than any word could ever be" (_Language _ by Suzanne Vega).


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## joanvillafane

I'll join in to add my vote for providing a space for remembering Forum users who have passed on.  I imagine the Mods are thinking about some practical issues and guidelines and I hope it can be worked out.

The Forum rules prohibit personal chats - and rightly so - and yet, despite that, we come to know each other's personality and character through the Forum posts.   So there is a sense of community which should be allowed to express itself when needed.


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## bondia

joanvillafane said:


> The Forum rules prohibit personal chats - and rightly so - and yet, despite that, we come to know each other's personality and character through the Forum posts. So there is a sense of community which should be allowed to express itself when needed.


 
There is always the alternative of Private Messages, but they are precisely that, _private_. I would support a _public_ means of communication under the circumstances we are discussing (and agree 100% about the sense of community)
Even as I write, I am wondering about a senior member who has been absent from the Forums (at least the ones I frequent) for longer than seems normal to me. She is a moderator, but I don't feel comfortable enquiring..


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## cecil

bondia said:


> There is always the alternative of Private Messages, but they are precisely that, _private_. I would support a _public_ means of communication under the circumstances we are discussing (and agree 100% about the sense of community)
> Even as I write, I am wondering about a senior member who has been absent from the Forums (at least the ones I frequent) for longer than seems normal to me. She is a moderator, but I don't feel comfortable enquiring..


 
Bondia,

I believe our languages share a saying: "Where there's a will, there's a way."

Cecil


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## bondia

bondia said:


> Even as I write, I am wondering about a senior member who has been absent from the Forums (at least the ones I frequent) for longer than seems normal to me. She is a moderator, but I don't feel comfortable enquiring..


 
A very kind moderator answered this previous post of mine by PM, and explained that the team of moderators are in touch with one another and assured me that all are well.
Meanwhile it occurred to me to check all the posts by the person I was concerned about, and I found her most recent post just 3 days ago.
Good


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## Valeria Mesalina

http://forum.wordreference.com/member.php?u=31697


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## giovannino

After Valeria mentioned Ilmo, a kind forero pointed me to a moving thread dedicated to him, a thread which was made all the more poignant by the recollections provided by his brother Hakro, who is also a member of WRF:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=538702&highlight=ilmo


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## swift

Formar parte de esta verdadera comunidad de amigos y compañeros me ha permitido establecer relaciones cercanas de amistad con personas muy valiosas.

Por favor, si mi opinión llegare a importar, tómenla en cuenta para la apertura de un espacio en el cual podamos rendir tributo a esas personas que nos han acompañado dentro o fuera del ámbito de los foros y que han humanizado nuestros tratos por medio de sus tiernos cariños y demostraciones de amistad sincera y que han dejado de existir.

Un saludo,


José


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## Lamb67

I don't see any point for a special place for mourning.

If you mourn for a lost soul, better do it in silence.

#Supra7 is in fact my inspiration.


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## giovannino

Lamb67 said:


> I don't see any point for a special place for mourning.
> 
> If you mourn for a lost soul, better do it in silence.



On second thoughts, I believe you are right. I'm withdrawing my initial suggestion. 
However, we humans are inconsistent creatures so I will leave my memento of Caterina in my signature. I don't have the heart to delete it.


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## swift

Humans are inconstant.

Though I agree with Lamb and think that mourning should take place privately in our hearts, I believe that it could be nice to have a sub-forum where those who are willing to pay tribute to those members and send some support messages to their families may do it.

If I could, I would sent a condolence card, but that's not always possible. Should the forum provide us with an appropriate place to send the message, I would welcome it.


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## LMorland

giovannino said:


> On second thoughts, I believe you are right. I'm withdrawing my initial suggestion.


Wow, giovannino, one person writes in disagreeing with you and you change your mind?  I have to admit that I'm surprised and disappointed in your decision.

But this idea is greater than the suggestion of one person.  In the next 20, 30, 40 years a lot of people who are active on WF are will pass on (including me).  I sincerely hope that the Moderators will continue to debate the implementation of giovannino's suggestion.

In fact, it should be quite easy too difficult to implement.  Here's my suggestion:

[1]  A sub-Forum would initially be created, called "Death Notices". 

[2]  Anyone who knows of the death of a WF member would write a note to a Moderator, including a link to a death notice (for verification purposes).  Once verified, the moderator would initiate the thread for the deceased member.  

The usual extremely high levels of moderation would obtain: any inappropriate posts would be deleted.  (That doesn't mean that it would be completely off limits to 'speak ill of the dead'.  After I go, I wouldn't be surprised if a Mod referred to me as a PITA!  )

As for those who prefer to mourn only in their hearts, anyone who doesn't wish to participate can simply abstain. 

Happy St. Stephen's Day to all.

Laura


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## JamesM

Much as I sympathize with the idea, there is this matter of verification.  We do not know the person's real name in most cases.  Unless the death notice included an email address we wouldn't have anything to match the notice to the forum participant.  How likely is that?  

We exist in a virtual world here and much of it doesn't overlap with the real world.  Linking the two can be very problematic.


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## giovannino

LMorland said:


> Wow, giovannino, one person writes in disagreeing with you and you change your mind?  I have to admit that I'm surprised and disappointed in your decision



Laura, it's not so much that I changed my mind as that I wanted to forestall my disappointment at the rejection of my suggestion on the grounds of lack of verification. Anyone who would make up a false obituary would be very sick indeed, but evidently some feel that there are such sick people around and who knows -- they may be right. 
I think Caterina knows that she'll always be in my heart, whether I honour her memory here or not. Not paying tribute to her contribution to this forum is WRF's loss, in terms of human values, not hers or mine.

P.S. "On second thought*s*" isn't wrong. It's standard in British English


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## JamesM

I think your intentions are honorable and good, giovannino, and I am not suggesting that you have any bad intentions. It's just that we must deal with a wide range of people here, some of them only interested in causing chaos. It would be a shame to see a sub-forum that was intended to honor others become a place for hoaxes or shams but there's a great deal of history on the internet to prove that it could easily become that.

The issue is still under discussion. I'm not answering for the moderators or as a moderator. I'm simply engaging in the discussion. It seems that I'm in trouble if I do either.  If I don't engage, I'm disinterested. If I engage and point out the challenges I'm a naysayer. I choose to participate.

I do hope we work out a way to make this possible.


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## swift

James,

Et si c'était un forum modéré, comme celui des Ressources ? Le problème de la véracité demeure mais au moins on éviterait certains ennuis.

Juste une idée... Mais je suppose que vous y avez déjà pensé


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## giovannino

James, I just -- wrongly, as it turns out -- assumed you were posting as a mod and didn't realize that you were responding to Laura's suggestion that there should be verification of some sort -- which I find impracticable.

There is nothing virtual about Caterina. She was a loving, generous human being who cared a lot about animals but, unlike some animal lovers, also loved people. She's the best friend I ever had and ever will have and I'm grateful to WRF. If it hadn't been for this forum our paths would never have crossed.
Here she is:
http://forum.wordreference.com/member.php?u=5118


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## Sowka

Hello giovannino 

Of course, we all are not just virtual, we are real people. The problem is that we *appear* as virtual people here: We normally have nicknames, our real names are in most cases not known (and even real names are not unique -- I once googled for my own name, which isn't extremely common, and found many different people the vast majority of whom aren't me ).

Please bear in mind that we are a worldwide community of about 400,000 members, about 16,000 active members. How could anyone determine if the information about the death of a member, represented as a nickname here, was true?

In my opinion, this is not a bureaucratic approach. It is an approach that tries to protect the members of our community. Because this would be a very cruel thing to happen: Someone who hadn't been active for a while for whatever reason came back and found such a thread about him- or herself... This is the major point that makes me hesitate.


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## LMorland

Sowka said:


> How could anyone determine if the information about the death of a member, represented as a nickname here, was true?


Through extra-mural means.  

That is, relationships that develop on the Forum aren't usually limited to monikers, avatars and PMs.  I know the real identities of a number of persons active on the French-English Forum.  I've gone out to lunch with two of them, I've been invited to do so by two others (when I'm in their vicinity), and I'm about to meet another for coffee week after next. 

In the instant case, giovannino had an extra-mural relationship with Caterina, and that's how he was in a position to know about her death:





> [A]fter exchanging emails and talking on the phone, we finally met in  person and our friendship extended well beyond the scope of this forum.


So it stands to reason that the _Death Notices/Livre d'Or_ sub-Forum would be limited to honoring the memory of persons who had developed an extra-mural relationship with another person active on the Forum. 

[Handling the death of members is a problem on Facebook, too, and they are now grappling with the problem, which obviously has more important consequences in that cyber-world than for us here.]


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## Lamb67

Some bad people would abuse it .


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## LMorland

Lamb67 said:


> Some bad people would abuse it.


That's what moderators are for! 

In fact, instead of slightly random moderation, it could be a truly  'moderated' thread, where submissions aren't posted until passing under  the eyes of a moderator. Swift already made this suggestion (see            #*23*):





swift said:


> Et si c'était un forum modéré, comme celui des Ressources ?  Le problème  de la véracité demeure mais au moins on éviterait certains  ennuis.


My translation:





> How about a moderated forum, such as Resources? The problem of verification will remain, but at least we could avoid certain problems.


[Link to Useful Links and Resources added.]


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## giovannino

LMorland said:


> Through extra-mural means.
> 
> That is, relationships that develop on the Forum aren't usually limited to monikers, avatars and PMs.  I know the real identities of a number of persons active on the French-English Forum.  I've gone out to lunch with two of them, I've been invited to do so by two others (when I'm in their vicinity), and I'm about to meet another for coffee week after next.
> 
> In the instant case, giovannino had an extra-mural relationship with Caterina, and that's how he was in a position to know about her death



Absolutely, Laura
In Caterina's case, she had a close friendship with a mod at IE, who met her on two occasions. Caterina's tragic death was also reported in the Italian press:
http://laprovinciapavese.gelocal.it/cronaca/2010/05/05/news/muore-in-vacanza-alle-maldive-1977916

Vittorio52 was a well-known actor, writer and movie dubber and his death was widely covered in the press.

After all, in Hakro's brother's case there was no objection to the beautiful, moving thread in his memory in the CD forum. Many people, including mods
, posted there, which goes to show that many felt the need to pay tribute to Ilmo: here

So I cannot understand the overcautious approach adopted by the mod team.

As for those who do not believe in public mourning, as Laura and Swift said, they can just abstain, while respecting those who feel the need for a public display of affection and gratitude.

Sometimes I feel that it is not just the forums that are "an adiunct to the WR dictionaries", but that even we, human beings without whom the forums wouldn't exist, are just "adjuncts to the dictionaries". When I joined WRF the feeling of being part of a community was much stronger. I miss that. That is also why I and others at IE don't post as often as we used to.


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## TimLA

*How do we mourn?*
We do it publicly and privately. Privately, we remember the person, their deeds, how their life affected us, and we keep those thoughts with us for the rest of our lives.
Public mourning can range from a simple "_requiescat in pace_", to an obituary, to kind words to loved ones left behind, to elaborate funerals and celebrations of life.

*Should we mourn on WR?*
_De jure_, WR is not a social website, but _de facto_ it is. Given the serious nature of the members, and the high level of discussion on the "serious side" of the forums,
there are bonds forged and maintained for long periods of time.
On the "non-serious side" of the forums we have an area where we can congratulate someone on X,000 posts, or the birth of a child.
There are countless banal discussions of issues of little serious relevance (I have participated in many).
As shown above, we have a precedent for mourning, and I see no reason why, after careful consideration by multiple mods, and tight rules,
threads cannot be started and refereed.
I too have wondered about foreros we haven't heard from in years...


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## mkellogg

Hi everybody,

In response to this thread, we decided to rename the Congrats forum to Celebrations.  There we can now celebrate the lives of people who have touched us.

Thanks for the excellent idea.

Mike


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## swift

Thank you, Mike.


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## bondia

mkellogg said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> In response to this thread, we decided to rename the Congrats forum to Celebrations. There we can now celebrate the lives of people who have touched us.
> 
> Thanks for the excellent idea.
> 
> Mike


 
 Mike


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## giovannino

I've already thanked Mike in the re-named "Celebrations" sub-forum, but since I started this thread, I think it only fair that I should express my heartfelt gratitude here, too.


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## TimLA

mkellogg said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> In response to this thread, we decided to rename the Congrats forum to Celebrations. There we can now celebrate the lives of people who have touched us.
> 
> Thanks for the excellent idea.
> 
> Mike


 
Thank you in *all* the languages of the forum.


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## lablady

Oh yes, a most excellent idea. Thank you.


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## mkellogg

Well, thank the moderators (too).  They are the ones who realized that this would be a  good way to do this.


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## cecil

mkellogg said:


> Well, thank the moderators (too). They are the ones who realized that this would be a good way to do this.


 
Mike, Then thanks to the whole team!


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## LMorland

cecil said:


> Mike, Then thanks to the whole team!


I echo cecil: Thanks, Mike, to you and to all the Moderators who have been discussing this issue behind the scenes. It's a very nice and appropriate way way to start the new year.

But it seems to me that credit is also due to giovannino, who initiated this  idea upon the deaths of KittyKate and Vittorio52. 

* * * * *​ 
Linking to the profiles above has inspired in me an ancillary suggestion to this concept.  It would be tricky to implement, because it would require some work on the part of your programmers, Mike, but here it is: 

In the case of a _confirmed _death of a Forum member, why not make that fact known on their profile page?  (NOT on their status, which would unnecessarily 'weird people out' who are reading a particular thread, but only on their profile page.)  

For example, under _Date d'inscription_ one could add _Date de mort.  
_And on the contact page, one could put the word 'deceased' in place of, e.g., 

Envoyer un message privé à V52
         I would suggest _not _suppressing the email link, however, in case family members are monitoring the decedent's email.  I know from personal (parallel) experience that most would probably be very grateful to receive an email from someone who had known their loved one through the Forum.

P.S.  Thanks to Valeria Mesalina, I just found the link to Ilmo's profile page, and see that he is listed as 'Member Emeritus".  That's a brilliant idea, and should be extended to KittyKate and Vittorio52 as well.


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