# qian, tian in fast speech



## kirsitn

I have trouble hearing the difference between the sounds *tian* and *qian* in fast speech. Is there a noticeable difference in the pronunciation for native speakers, or do you just hear a difference because you know how the words would be pronounced if the person spoke slowly?


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## bag520

Hello Kirsitn, The two words " *tian* and *qian* "do have difference. *T* and *Q* are pronounced totally different in Chinese.For an easy example,T like "tea",but Q can be refered to "_chea_p".I hope you can feel the difference now.

And you can practice these two words " *tian* and *qian* " together ,it will make a new chinese word　“天气”.

Good luck!


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## kirsitn

Yes, I know that the sounds are different, and I can hear the difference if the words are pronounced slowly, but when they are pronounced quickly the difference seems to be smaller. "Tian qi" does not represent a problem - the problem is when there's a second vowel after "ti" or "qi" - like tiao-qiao, tian-qian.


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## Staarkali

I believe as a foreigner myself, the real difficulty is between *T and J*, and *J and Q*.
Like in 今天，or in 体积 etc.
今天星期几？今天星期天。那么我们星期天见


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## kirsitn

I guess maybe it depends on what sounds are used more often in your native language. For me it's easier to differentiate between T-J and J-Q than between T-Q. 

C vs. Z is however another problem for me (cai vs. zai), perhaps because Norwegian does not have any voiced s-sound. I don't have any problems with the voiced s in French and German, but the Chinese consonants somehow seem to sound much more similar to each other than the equivalent sounds in (western) European languages...


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## Staarkali

kirsitn said:


> [...]C vs. Z is however another problem for me (cai vs. zai)[...]


Same here, the hardest is to say 做错 like in 我做错了 or like mentioned above 才在 like in 我们才在一起了.
Not easy easy...


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## BODYholic

kirsitn said:


> I have trouble hearing the difference between the sounds *tian* and *qian* in fast speech. Is there a noticeable difference in the pronunciation for native speakers, or do you just hear a difference because you know how the words would be pronounced if the person spoke slowly?


Chinese, as well as Thai, is a tonal language. Most native speakers put a lot of focus on the tones rather than the consonants. Take the case of 才在 cai2 zai4, the sound of 'c' and 'z' is not distinct when spoken soft and quickly. But the tone differences help us to piece up the words.

Things that intrigue me are foreign learners, particularly those from English speaking countries, tend to spend a great deal of time on nitty gritty like consonant 'b' and 'p', exasperate vs non-exasperate and yada yada.

To master Chinese language, the very first step is to inculcate the ability to differential the 5 tones (4 pitched and 1 toneless). E.g.  搭 达 打 大.

Do answer your question: "*Difference between qian and tian in fast speech?"
*You haven't included the tones in your example but assuming it is 天遣(tian1 qian3), the 2 characters sound totally different to me be it spoken fast or slow.


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## kirsitn

BODYholic said:


> Things that intrigue me are foreign learners, particularly those from English speaking countries, tend to spend a great deal of time on nitty gritty like consonant 'b' and 'p', exasperate vs non-exasperate and yada yada.



I guess that might be because consonants are very important in most European languages, so it takes a while to get used to the idea of tones being the most important aspect of a language. And perhaps also because using tones is the hardest part for those of us who start learning a tonal language for the first time as adults. 

(I've noticed that some Chinese people mix up consonant when speaking English, saying for instance *n*ight when they mean *l*ight, and I guess this shows that consonants are not so important for differentiating between words in Chinese (don't know which Chinese dialect/language the person spoke.))


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## kirsitn

BODYholic said:


> [/B]You haven't included the tones in your example but assuming it is 天遣(tian1 qian3), the 2 characters sound totally different to me be it spoken fast or slow.



I _think_ the problem is independent of tone. I don't have any particular example of tian-qian combinations, it's more a general problem of figuring out the pinyin when hearing a word that I don't know the meaning of.


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## BODYholic

It will be good if you could provide some examples and preferable words with tones too. Thanks.


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## kirsitn

Well, here's an example where I can hear the difference because it's spoken reasonable slowly, but if it was spoken quickly I probably wouldn't know if the second part of the word was a "tian" or "qian" - regardless of tone. 

http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/前天/32269


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## BODYholic

I did a simple experiment by repeating the words 前天 countless times at high speed. That's 前天前天前天前天前天前天前天前天前天前天前天......

Unfortunately, I did not encounter the same problem like what you are facing. I did, however, hear the sound of 前 distorted to become something in the tune of 全(quan2).

I think the reason for the above finding is because, between the 2 characters, 天 is relatively easy to pronounce. Whereas 前 requires more mouth/tongue coordination. Still, I didn't confuse by the 'p' and 'q'.

I gave this a long thought. Another probable explanation would be the second word 天(tian1) which has the first pitched tone and its volume, by nature, is soft. Hence, when it is paired with 前(qian3) and spoken at high speed, the 天became less audible. The sound of 前overpowered the first consonant of 天(t).

Would you have the same problem for the word 千田(qian1 tian2) as in 千田爱纱?


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## kirsitn

Yes, I think I would have the same problem. Possibly even more since I find that in the pronunciation of 天天, the second 天 is more easily confused with a "qian" than the first one. Or in other words I find it more difficult to hear the difference between "tian" and "qian" when the "tian" is not at the beginning of the word/sentence. (But I also find it more difficult to pronounce the second 天 correctly myself, it tends to approach a "qian" unless I really concentrate on pronouncing the "t" and "ian" as separate sounds instead of letting the "t" slide into/merge with the "ian".)


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## w84u

With the consonant 't', we flick away the tip of the tongue by an abrupt blowout of air(aspiration). But there is no tongue flick when we pronounce 'q' .


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## samanthalee

kirsitn said:


> I _think_ the problem is independent of tone. I don't have any particular example of tian-qian combinations, it's more a general problem of figuring out the pinyin when hearing a word that I don't know the meaning of.



I think BODYholic has a point there. We put more emphasis on tone than on consonants. 天天吃饭 [tian1 tian1] could easily be misheard as 芊芊吃饭 [qian1 qian1], even for native speakers (provided if you have a friend called 芊芊).

I occasionally carry out short conversations with my sister while we are brushing our teeth simply by humming the tones (ok, I know I'm weird. ) It only works in Mandarin, not in English. (Interestingly it couldn't work in Hokkien/Taiwanese, maybe because this particular Chinese dialect has such complicated tonal assimilation, while Mandarin has relatively "stable" tone)


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