# FR: manquer de (la) / du X - article usage



## Sara'

hi,

in french, general sense nouns usually have a definite article e.g. la patience, l'affection, la compassion etc

but, for example, why is it 'il manque de patience' and not 'il manque de la patience' or 'elle manque d'affection' and not 'elle manque de l'affection' 

i'm unsure of when to use the definite article and when not to 

*Moderator note*: multiple threads merged to create this one


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## geostan

The noun patience is not being used generically after manquer de. It is quantitative or specific.

Il manque de patience. He lacks [any] patience.
Il manque de la patience de Job. He lacks the patience of Job.


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## Krom le Barbare

It's tough to explain, yes. Especially for French people! I had never think about this before ... you're right, it seems quite obvious to us, but it's a bit weird.

Geostan is right, when we say "la patience est une vertu", we mean "the more patience you have, the better it is", i.e. "la patience" may be something quantitative. 

However, don't forget French language often puts articles before nouns, more often than English. For (a creepy) example, we say "la Mort" (the character), while it's always "Death" in English.
By the way, I think the fact that you don't have the masculin/féminin trick, Death is a man. In France, it's a woman.

(Reminds me of that Monty Python movie ...)


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## jann

Welcome, Sara'! 

When we need to combine _de_ (from an expression ending in _de) _with the partitive (_du, de la_) or plural indefinite(_des_), we get _de _back again.  A familiar example: _avoir besoin de + des pommes, du sucre = avoir besoin de pommes, de sucre_.

If you have patience, that's _avoir de la patience. --> _"some patience," with the partitive, since we're not talking about all the patience in the world.  So then if you lack patience, that's _manquer de + de la patience = manquer de patience_, where _de_ + partitive combines back to "_de_."  

So actually, we're not using "patience" as a general sense noun here.  As a general sense noun, we'd be talking about the concept of patience, and we wouldn't need a partitive.. and we would keep the definite article.  For example, if you preach patience, that's _prêcher la patience_, "patience" in general as a concept, with the definite article instead of the partitive, because there's no question of "some" or "all" here.  Then if you couldn't care less about patience, that would be _se moquer de + la patience = se moquer de la patience_, and you get to keep the definite article because even though we have an expression ending in _de_, there's no partitive to combine it with.  

Does that help?


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## timpeac

Jann's explanation is fantastic and complete as always. I might put it in slightly simpler (and for that less complete terms).

"Patience" can be "la patience". But it can also be "de la patience", "some patience".
As you know "he lacks..." is "il maque de..."
In French the formula is that "one lacks some patience" so you have
"il manque de..." + "de la patience".
When "de" + "de la" (or "du" or "des" etc) come together you just say "de"
Il manque de patience.


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## Sara'

so an expression ending in de + the partitive/plural indefinite = de

i got it

thanks everyone


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## Tim~!

Exactly.  They never teach us in school, which is why it takes coming here for us to come across the rule.

DE + DU/DE LA/DES = DE


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## timpeac

You've got it.

Ps - it's also why it's "une bouteille d'eau" "une goutte d'eau" "un peu de patience" etc.


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## CapnPrep

I am afraid the explanation is somewhat circular. We say _manquer de patience_ because there is a "hidden" partitive _de la_. But how do we know there is a partitive? There must be, otherwise we would say _manquer de la patience_…

If we make the following equivalences between French and English, the meaning does not seem to help at all. But in fact I think the translations are misleading.


geostan said:


> Il manque de patience. He lacks [any] patience.
> Il manque de la patience de Job. He lacks the patience of Job.


_He lacks patience_ tends to mean "He has no patience". So it is generic, or general, or whatever the opposite of partitive is, and it corresponds more closely to _La patience lui manque ~ Il lui manque la patience_ (note the definite article). Also note that _He lacks some patience_ sounds weird in English, so learners of French will see little reason to use the partitive in French.

But _Il manque de patience_ actually means "He has some patience, but not enough". I.e. it's more like _He is lacking in patience_.

I find the second French example strange (but maybe some French speakers can give their opinion), because it seems to mean "He doesn't have enough of the patience of Job" or _He is lacking in the patience of Job_. But (in my opinion) you can't really have more or less of the patience of Job, you either have it or you don't.

There is a different French example with the definite article in this thread:
*FR: Ils manquent de talent nécessaire*


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## geostan

Sorry, but I have to disagree. It may be more difficult to visualize because it is an abstract noun, but I see no difference between Il manque de patience and Il manque de beurre. 

As for the second example, you may indeed find it strange if you interpret it as you have done, but we are not dealing with just any patience but specifically that attached to Job. As ypou said, you either have it or you don't and that is precisely why the definite article is required. It is similar to the sentence_ Ils manquent *du* talent né__cessaire pour faire telle ou telle chose,_ where we are not dealing with just any talent but a specific talent, that which is necessary to accomplish something, hence the need for _du_.


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## Cependant

Bonjour tout le monde

I still don’t know when to use the articles...
My book says that it is used in front of an abstract now.
And it comes up with this sentence(example one)...

Elle a manqué de patience.

Since patience is abstract
how come it is not Elle a manqué de *la* patience?

They contradict.

Then I'm doing my project(example two).

[...]  *Moderator note*: you must open a new thread for every example you wish to discuss (rule 2)

Pourriez-vous expliquer?

Merci Beaucoup!


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## jann

Hello Cependant,

You found a complicated example sentence.  

Patience can be abstract, but we're not talking in the abstract here.  The sentence isn't about "patience as a general virtue" (another way to think about it: we're not talking about "all the patience in the world").  Instead, we're talking about a specific case of patience -- the measure of patience she didn't have -- so you need the partitive (_de la_) instead of the definite article (_la_).  

Now let's look at the verb:  the expression for "to lack" is _manquer de_.  The preposition _de_ is an essential part of the verb.

When we combine the preposition _de_ with the partitive, a contraction takes place:

[preposition de] + partitive [du, de la, de l', des] = de

_elle manque de + de la patience = elle manque de patience_

Does this help?  Please open a separate thread for you 2nd question. 

Jann
member and moderator


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## quinoa

I'm not sure that when you say "Je manque de patience", you only refer to 'a measure of patience she didn't have".
If you imagine "Je manque de la patience nécessaire", you can observe it's "patience" in its quality.
Glose : La patience nécessaire me manque. La patience me manque.

The presence of "la" in the second example comes from the new determination made by the adjoining of the adjective "nécessaire".
Patience is not to be considered to be the notion as "all the patience in the world" but "all patience" in its quality. And this reference to the purest quality doesn't require any determination or precedes any determination.
 You can have this effect in such an example as :
"Tu parles de patience, sais-tu au moins ce que c'est?"


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## marget

I know that I've read that manquer generally takes de plus the noun without an article.  Je manque de patience is correct. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't _changer de_ act in the same way?  Je vais changer de chaussures/de boucher, etc., for example. I think I learned that manquer de and changer de are similar.  I have never really tried to analyze them.


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## quinoa

It works alike : changer d'air/manquer d'air/avoir besoin d'air/


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## Cependant

Oh...so it is actually the partitive article + de, so it is still *de*....
Thanks to you all


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## Césaire

Hi, in this sentence, "However, he lacked the force and the finesse of poetic genius" would one include the definite article because it is a specific type of force and finesse?

"Cependant il manquait de* la* force et de *la* finesse du génie poétique"

[…]

So if I wanted to say he lacked _some _force it would be "Il manquait de (da la) force" - which gives us "Il manquait de force" (Just as I need some salad = J'ai besoin de salade, not j'ai besoin de la salade, which means I need the (specific) salad)

So actually in this case, it is using just de that can imply 'some'

In "Manquait de la force" the 'de la' isn't a partitive article denoting 'some' but just the preposition de + the definite article.

My question was whether using the definite article after 'manquer de' is ok in this context to refer to a *specific *force, because normally I know the article is left out when talking generally, e.g.  "Il manquait de courage"

[…]

I've just typed out my thought process, sorry if it's not clear!


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## Maître Capello

Césaire said:


> would one include the definite article because it is a specific type of force and finesse?


Definitely! 

_Il manquait de* la* force et de *la* finesse du génie poétique_ → the specific force and finesse of poetic genius
_Il manquait de force et de finesse_ → force and finesse in general

P.S.: Welcome to the forums, Césaire!


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## Trendywendy_41

Just to re cap:
Je manque d'energie.
Je manque de l'enegie dont j'ai besoin pour gagner la course.
(I've been reviewing the de + partative.) 

Trendy Wendy


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