# Indo-European similar sentence



## studencik

Is there a way to create a sentence that can be quite similar in all IE languages (or at least some branches)?

It's possible with the Uralic languages for example:

_Elävä kala ui veden alla._ (Finnish)
_Eleven hal úszik a víz alatt._ (Hungarian)
_Erjai kal ved' ala uji._ (Mordvin)
_Ealli guolli vuodjá čázi vuolde._ (Saami)
_Ilıše kol vüd jımalne ija._ (Mari)
_Ulep čoryg vu ulyn uja._ (Udmurt)

So, is it possible or IE languages are too diverse from each other for that? Feel free to come up with such sentence!


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## Penyafort

studencik said:


> Is there a way to create a sentence that can be quite similar in all IE languages (or at least some branches)?


Rather with some branches. The supposed split between Finno-Permic and Ugric is remote but younger than the first supposed splits between some IE branches.


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## apmoy70

I'm sure the Romance and Slavic languages could demonstrate something similar, to a lesser degree the Germanic ones too.


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## Penyafort

A first attempt, just with two branches...

_[ Méynos +ḱḗr[d] + h₁ésti + h₁én _+ _téynos_ _+ h3ókw- ]_

_Miinaz hertô isti in thiinaz aug·ammaz _(*Proto-Germanic)​
My heart is in thine eyes. (English)​Mein Herz ist in deinen Augen. (German)​Mijn hart is in dijn ogen. (Dutch)​Mitt hjärta är i dina ögon. (Swedish)​
_Meos kord est en towois okw·elo·is _(*Proto-Italic)​_> Meus cor est in tuis oc·ul·iis. (Cor meus in tuis oculiis est) _(Latin)​
Mi cor·az·ón está en tus ojos. (Spanish)​Meu cor·aç·ao está em teus olhos. (Portuguese)​Mon coeur est _dans_ tes yeux. (French)​_Il_ mio cuore è nei tuoi occhi. (Italian)​_El_ meu cor és _als_ teus ulls. (Catalan)​


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## S.V.

studencik said:


> all IE languages


Maybe an _Oedigram_

Mamá es sexy
Maman est sexy
Мама е секси
...


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## Olaszinhok

studencik said:


> _Elävä kala ui veden alla._ (Finnish)
> _Eleven hal úszik a víz alatt._ (Hungarian)


I know some Hungarian and I have to say that the above sentences are quite similar and understandable but the following two look completely different to me

_ıše kol vüd jımalne ija._ (Mari)
_Ulep čoryg vu ulyn uja._ (Udmurt)



Penyafort said:


> Meu cor·aç·ao está em teus olhos. (Portuguese)


In European Portuguese I would say: o meu coração está nos teus olhos.


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## studencik

This is the best one I could come up with (sadly, only from two branches):

ENG: My brother stays and spends three nights with the same guests.
PL: Mój brat zostaje i spędza trzy noce z tymi samymi gośćmi.

I used "night"/"noc" instead because "day" and "dzień" are actually false cognates.


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## Penyafort

Short poem:

_Snow, wind... Mother..._​_My nose is cold..._​​(German) Schnee, Wind... Mutter... / Meine Nase ist kalt...​​(Latin) Nevem, ventum... Mater... / Nasus meus gelidus est...​(Spanish) Nieve, viento... Madre... / Mi _nariz _está helada/gélida...​(French) Neige, vent... Mère... / Mon nez est gelé...​(Italian) Neve, vento... Madre ... / _Il_ mio naso è gelato/gelido...​(Portuguese) Neve, vento... Mãe ... / _O_ meu _nariz _está gelado/gélido...​(Catalan) Neu, vent... Mare... / _El _meu nas és gelat/gèlid...​​(Russian) Sneg, veter... Mat'... / Moï nos - kholodniï...​


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## ThomasK

Penyafort said:


> A first attempt, just with two branches...
> 
> _[ Méynos +ḱḗr[d] + h₁ésti + h₁én _+ _téynos_ _+ h3ókw- ]_
> 
> _Miinaz hertô isti in thiinaz aug·ammaz _(*Proto-Germanic)​
> My heart is in thine eyes. (English)​Mein Herz ist in deinen Augen. (German)​Mijn hart is in j*ouw [dijn = medieval Dutch]* ogen. (Dutch)​Mitt hjärta är i dina ögon. (Swedish)​
> _Meos kord est en towois okw·elo·is _(*Proto-Italic)​_> Meus cor est in tuis oc·ul·iis. (Cor meus in tuis oculiis est) _(Latin)​
> Mi cor·az·ón está en tus ojos. (Spanish)​Meu cor·aç·ao está em teus olhos. (Portuguese)​Mon coeur est _dans_ tes yeux. (French)​_Il_ mio cuore è nei tuoi occhi. (Italian)​_El_ meu cor és _als_ teus ulls. (Catalan)​


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## Penyafort

Dat is waar, I also had to use the English _thine_.


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## AndrasBP

Penyafort said:


> My heart is in thine eyes. (English)


Mano širdis yra tavo akyse. (Lithuanian) "akyse" = plural locative case of "akis"

Mana sirds ir tavās acīs. (Latvian) "acīs" = plur. loc. of "acs"

Baltic languages don't use a preposition to express "in(side)".


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## S.V.

S.V. said:


> Mamá es sexy
> Maman est sexy
> Мама е секси
> ...



A little boy says *“ Mama is pretty!”*, after she dresses up, & daughter/father replies _“* Mama is sexy.*”_

Fun if it actually works  (broken: )

Mami është seksi
մամա սեքսուալ է
Μαμά είναι σέξι
माँ सेक्सी है
مامان سکسی است
Mamãe é sexy

Or a context that also repeats infant talk, to avoid articles, etc. The father might not make sense in some languages, with_ sexy_.


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## Awwal12

S.V. said:


> Maybe an _Oedigram_
> 
> Mamá es sexy
> Maman est sexy
> Мама е секси
> ...


Well, if some recent poorly adaptated Anglicisms will be found in all the languages, they definitely will make the job easier.  (But East Slavic languages will just drop the copula here anyway.)
I still don't understand what studencik meant as "quite similar", though (because superficially his FU examples look anything but similar).

Speaking about vocabulary, the Western branches of IE languages will  apparently have more similarities than in average.
Just compare the reflexes: nos - noch - night - noche - nychta - naktis... but the root is entirely lost in Armenian and modern Indo-Iranian languages.
dydd - den' - day - día - (lost in Greek) - diena... no traces in Armenian, Hindi or Persian again.


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## bearded

Awwal12 said:


> día - (lost in Greek)


Well, not completely lost if you consider the name of Zeus in Modern Greek (Δίας / Dhias) from the accusative of Zeus the IE god of 'light'/day.  Talking about 'traces'.


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## Awwal12

And on a sidenote:


studencik said:


> _Erjai kal ved' ala uji._ (Mordvin)


There is no such language as "Mordvin". Moksha and Erzya are two quite distinct languages which separated more than a millennium ago. Moreover, "Mordvins" are a collective exonym used by Russians; Moksha and Erzya don't recognize each other as members of a single ethnic group normally - there is even no word for it in Mordvinic languages.
The sentence is in Moksha-Mordvin.


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## bearded

Penyafort said:


> oculiis


_Oculis , _with just one i_  (_plural ablative of oculus).

And not 'cor meus'_, _but _cor meum_ (cor is a neuter noun).


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## elroy

studencik said:


> Is there a way to create a sentence that can be quite similar in all IE languages (or at least some branches)?


Can you define what you mean by "quite similar"?

I think your qualifier, "or at least some branches," should be removed because I'm sure it's possible to find a sentence that is "quite similar" in, say, three branches.  Off the top of my head:

*My teacher lives in Warsaw. *(English / Germanic)
*Mi maestro vive en Varsovia.* (Spanish / Romance)
*Mój nauczyciel mieszka w Warszawie. *(Polish / Slavic)

I think that _without the qualifier_ your question is highly fascinating.  I don't think it would be reasonable for us to test _every Indo-European language_, as that would be far too many, but perhaps we could try to find a sentence that is "quite similar" (again, to be defined) in at least one language from each main branch.

I propose that we come up with a few short sentences as candidates, and then try to compile translations into at least one language from each major Indo-European branch.  As soon as we come upon a translation that doesn't meet our "quite similar" requirement, we discard that sentence as a candidate.  And we can then propose alternate sentences as candidates.

For example, here are three sentences to start with:

*My teacher lives in Warsaw.* (my sentence from above)
*Your rabbits can eat carrots.
Give me apples and pears.

My teacher lives in Warsaw.*

Germanic:* My teacher lives in Warsaw. *(English)
Romance:* Mi maestro vive en Varsovia.* (Spanish)
Slavic: *Mój nauczyciel mieszka w Warszawie. *(Polish)
Baltic:
Hellenic:
Indic:
Iranian:
Celtic:
Albanian:
Armenian:

*Your rabbits can eat carrots.*

Germanic: *Your rabbits can eat carrots. *(English)
Romance: *Tus conejos pueden comer zanahorias.* (Spanish)
Slavic: *Twoje króliki mogą jeść marchewki. *(Polish)
Baltic:
Hellenic:
Indic:
Iranian:
Celtic:
Albanian:
Armenian:

*Buy apples and pears.*

Germanic: *Buy apples and pears. *(English)
Romance: *Compra manzanas y peras. *(Spanish)
Slavic: *Kup jabłka i gruszki. *(Polish)
Baltic:
Hellenic:
Indic:
Iranian:
Celtic:
Albanian:
Armenian:


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## apmoy70

*My teacher lives in Warsaw.*

Germanic:* My teacher lives in Warsaw. *(English)
Romance:* Mi maestro vive en Varsovia.* (Spanish)
Slavic: *Mój nauczyciel mieszka w Warszawie. *(Polish)
Baltic:
Hellenic: *O δάσκαλός μου ζει στη Βαρσοβία. *[o̞ˈðas̠kaˌlo̞z̠mu ˈz̠i ˌs̠tivars̠o̞ˈvi.a] (Greek)
Indic:
Iranian:
Celtic:
Albanian:
Armenian:

*Your rabbits can eat carrots.*

Germanic: *Your rabbits can eat carrots. *(English)
Romance: *Tus conejos pueden comer zanahorias.* (Spanish)
Slavic: *Twoje króliki mogą jeść marchewki. *(Polish)
Baltic:
Hellenic: *Τα κουνέλια σου μπορούν να φάνε καρότα. *[takuˈneʎas̠u bo̞ˈɾunaˈfane̞ kaˈɾota] (Greek)
Indic:
Iranian:
Celtic:
Albanian:
Armenian:

*Buy apples and pears.*

Germanic: *Buy apples and pears. *(English)
Romance: *Compra manzanas y peras. *(Spanish)
Slavic: *Kup jabłka i gruszki. *(Polish)
Baltic:
Hellenic: *Πάρε μήλα και αχλάδια. *[ˈpaɾe̞ ˈmilace̞.aˈxlaðʝa] (Greek)
Indic:
Iranian:
Celtic:
Albanian:
Armenian:

Other than the fact that in Greek the possessive pronoun is enclitic, the sentences are almost identical syntactically


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## elroy

So far the third sentence seems like the best candidate!  (I used possessives because I wanted to avoid articles because I know some languages don't have them.  I didn't know about Greek possessives!)


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## elroy

studencik said:


> ENG: My brother stays and spends three nights with the same guests.
> PL: Mój brat zostaje i spędza trzy noce z tymi samymi gośćmi.
> 
> I used "night"/"noc" instead because "day" and "dzień" are actually false cognates.


Wait a minute, you want all the words to be cognates of each other???   In that case, none of my sentences qualifies.  I was thinking of syntax.

This demonstrates that you should have explained very clearly what you mean by "quite similar," which you still haven't.

Also, is there a minimum length for these sentences?  The word "Sleep!", for example, is a complete sentence, but I suspect you're looking for longer sentences.


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## Penyafort

bearded said:


> _Oculis , _with just one i_  (_plural ablative of oculus).
> 
> And not 'cor meus'_, _but _cor meum_ (cor is a neuter noun).


The double i in _oculiis _was just my macronless attempt to represent a long i. 

But _cor _is indeed neuter (unforgivable mistake, with such an evident plural as _corda_! ) and that leads me to think that the PIE root could also be neuter, so probably no *_meynos _either.



elroy said:


> This demonstrates that you should have explained very clearly what you mean by "quite similar," which you still haven't.


Well, I guessed it was with cognates because he used cognates for the examples in the Uralic languages.

The problem is, in such a long time, and given that many of the current languages are cousins rather than sisters, cognates have usually taken different paths. The cognate for *t**ea**ch**er *in Spanish would be *d**ecid**or*, someone who speaks with ease and grace, which has  been applied to troubadours but never to teachers. It'd be better the other way round. The cognate in English for *maestro *is *master*, and a schoolmaster is a male teacher. (But if we're _purists_, that'd be cheating, because 'master' isn't Germanic)


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## elroy

Might this help us with this task?

("head" and "caput" are cognates??? )


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## Penyafort

elroy said:


> Might this help us with this task?
> 
> ("head" and "caput" are cognates??? )


If you think that head was _heafod _in Old English, it's easier to relate. Even more in German, where _Haupt _preserves the p.


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## elroy

Penyafort said:


> Although finding a good sentence which works in the same way -cognates and syntax- in many Indo-European languages, the way he did with Uralic, is almost impossible, if only by the sheer number of IE languages that exist.


Maybe it's possible if we take one language per major branch, as I suggested earlier?  I was hoping the Wikipedia page could help with that.


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## apmoy70

Penyafort said:


> ...
> The problem is, in such a long time, and given that many of the current languages are cousins rather than sisters, cognates have usually taken different paths. The cognate for *t**ea**ch**er *in Spanish would be *d**ecid**or*, someone who speaks with ease and grace, which has been applied to troubadours but never to teachers. It'd be better the other way round. The cognate in English for *maestro *is *master*, and a schoolmaster is a male teacher. (But if we're _purists_, that'd be cheating, because 'master' isn't Germanic)


Well, I too could use either the Byzantine *«μαΐστωρ» maístōr* (< Lat. _magister_) instead of *δάσκαλος*, or its MoGr derivative *«μάστορας»* [ˈmas̠to̞ɾas̠], but the Byzantine one sounds too pretentious and archaic (althouɡh it's still used in relation to somethinɡ associated with the Byzantine cultural tradition: The Maistors of Psaltic Art), while the MoGr one has come to describe the master-craftsman. Besides that, δάσκαλος is the MoGr contracted form of the Classical one *«διδάσκαλος» dĭdắskălŏs*, a deverbative from *«διδάσκω» dĭdắskō*, with sole coɡnates the Sanskrit दिदेष्टि (dideṣṭi), Avestan dīdaińhē (reduplication in the Present tense of PIE *dens- _to teach_).


elroy said:


> Wait a minute, you want all the words to be cognates of each other???   In that case, none of my sentences qualifies.  I was thinking of syntax.
> 
> This demonstrates that you should have explained very clearly what you mean by "quite similar," which you still haven't.
> 
> Also, is there a minimum length for these sentences?  The word "Sleep!", for example, is a complete sentence, but I suspect you're looking for longer sentences.


Agreed, languages don't "work" that way!


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## Penyafort

apmoy70 said:


> Besides that, δάσκαλος is the MoGr contracted form of the Classical one *«διδάσκαλος» dĭdắskălŏs*, a deverbative from *«διδάσκω» dĭdắskō*,


Very _didactic_!


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## Welsh_Sion

In answer to the 3 sentences above in supplying a 'Celtic' version:

*My teacher lives in Warsaw.*

Germanic:* My teacher lives in Warsaw. *(English)
Romance:* Mi maestro vive en Varsovia.* (Spanish)
Slavic: *Mój nauczyciel mieszka w Warszawie. *(Polish)
Baltic:
Hellenic: *O δάσκαλός μου ζει στη Βαρσοβία. *[o̞ˈðas̠kaˌlo̞z̠mu ˈz̠i ˌs̠tivars̠o̞ˈvi.a] (Greek)
Indic:
Iranian:
Celtic: *Mae fy athrawes yn byw yn Warsaw. *(Welsh: Is my [feminine] teacher in-the-state-of living in Warsaw)
Albanian:
Armenian:

*Your rabbits can eat carrots.*

Germanic: *Your rabbits can eat carrots. *(English)
Romance: *Tus conejos pueden comer zanahorias.* (Spanish)
Slavic: *Twoje króliki mogą jeść marchewki. *(Polish)
Baltic:
Hellenic: *Τα κουνέλια σου μπορούν να φάνε καρότα. *[takuˈneʎas̠u bo̞ˈɾunaˈfane̞ kaˈɾota] (Greek)
Indic:
Iranian:
Celtic: *Gall eich gwningod fwyta moron.  *(Welsh: Can your [formal/plural] rabbits SM eating carrots)
Albanian:
Armenian:

*Buy apples and pears.*

Germanic: *Buy apples and pears. *(English)
Romance: *Compra manzanas y peras. *(Spanish)
Slavic: *Kup jabłka i gruszki. *(Polish)
Baltic:
Hellenic: *Πάρε μήλα και αχλάδια. *[ˈpaɾe̞ ˈmilace̞.aˈxlaðʝa] (Greek)
Indic:
Iranian:
Celtic: *Pryna afalau a gerllyg.* (Welsh: Buy [informal imperative 2nd pers. sing.] apples and pears)
Albanian:
Armenian:

You immediately run into the 'problem' when you consider 'Celtic' with regard to 'matching correspondences' with other IE family members. (The term 'Celtic' used loosely, hence the inverted commas, to encompass the extant languages of Irish Gaelic, Manx Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic on the one side - the Goidelic/Gaelic/Q Celtic languages, and Welsh/Breton/Cornish on the other - the Brythonic/Brittonic/P Celtic languages). 'Celtic' speakers, uniquely in the I-E world, have the preferred word order of V(erb) S(ubject) O(bject). Anything which deviates from this is considered an 'abnormal sentence' - and we tend to use such patterns only for emphasis. This procedure is known as 'fronting'. Word order is quite flexible in this respect - more so than, English, say - but the resulting structures may appear a little strange in practice. Hence their 'abnormality'. Coupled with the idea of initial consonantal mutation - another unique feature of 'Celtic' - a word may appear to have no connection to the original lexical item.

I have provided Welsh translations of the above sentences as requested, in the normal, unmarked VSO form. Further questions on 'similarities' and 'divergencies' from what are considered 'normal' in IE but are specific to 'Celtic' can be answered on request.


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## studencik

elroy said:


> Wait a minute, you want all the words to be cognates of each other???   In that case, none of my sentences qualifies.  I was thinking of syntax.
> 
> This demonstrates that you should have explained very clearly what you mean by "quite similar," which you still haven't.
> 
> Also, is there a minimum length for these sentences?  The word "Sleep!", for example, is a complete sentence, but I suspect you're looking for longer sentences.



Yes. I meant cognates.

Also, sorry. I like using "quite" quite a lot.


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## S.V.

Awwal12 said:


> make the job easier.


Ha, a tender conclusion, if only _ma__ma _remains, from India to Ireland to Chile.  As the baby repeats a suckling movement, with love.

Also _ma_ around here.


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## Awwal12

S.V. said:


> Ha, a tender conclusion, if only _ma__ma _remains, from India to Ireland to Chile.  As the baby repeats a suckling movement, with love.
> 
> Also _ma_ around here.


Toddler speech demonstrates considerable similarities cross-linguistically, often simply accidental. Cf., however, "nana" in Ossetian (seems regional in the Caucasus mountains; also encountered in Adyghe languages and in Georgian dialects).


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