# BCS: Dabogda...



## sesperxes

Dear forer@,

how do we use the expression "Dabogda / Da Bog da..."? 

I understand that the meaning is "I wish...". Are the following sentences correctly written (word order, verbal tenses...) 
--> "dabogda ne pada kiša, dabogda dođe vlak, dabogda ima hleba u trafiku...

In Spain we have two differents ways of expressing this wishes: the one speaks of the Christian God (Quiera Dios que...= That God want that...), the other one is an adverb, corruption of the Arabic "Insh Allà" (Ojalá): is there such a dicotomy between Christian and Muslim speakers in ex-Yu? 

Velika hvala.


----------



## Anicetus

First off, it's spelled together because the only accent has shifted to the first syllable -- that is, the conjunction/particle _da_ -- while _bog_ and the verb _da_ would normally be accented (_da Bȏg dȃ_ > _dàbōgda_).

That being said, _dabogda_ is a rather rustic, coarse or at least dramatic way of wishing something. I'd say most people associate it with cursing, which Google seems to support. Wishing the train to arrive on time is not where I'd put _dabogda_, unless in some special jocular context.

Anyway, _dabogda_ is usually followed by the bare l-participle, called "the optative mood" in this context by grammars, so it would be: _dabogda ne padala kiša, dabogda došao vlak, dabogda bilo hleba_. Of course, _bilo_ isn't a form of the same verb as _ima_ -- _ima_ is used only in the present tense in the sense of "there is", while forms of _biti_ are used in all the other verb forms. Also note that, unless there's a difference I'm unaware of in Serbian, _trafik*a*_ is a kiosk selling newspapers, magazines, cigarettes, condoms etc. -- not bread.

Some more conforming ways of wishing are starting the sentence with _da_ and using the adverbs _bar, barem, samo_ or using the phrase _kamo sreće da_, though that one's a bit theatrical too. They're all simply followed by the present tense for the present or a past tense for the past. Another possibility is using _kad(a), bar/barem/samo_ and the (present) conditional mood, though this only works for referring to present: _da barem ne pada kiša, kad bi bar došao vlak_.


----------



## sesperxes

I agrre with you about trafika: that's why we foreigners wish to get bread in these kiosks (but we can get only kikiriki, keksovi and loze!)


----------



## Anicetus

Why's that? Finding a _pekara/pekarnica_ shouldn't be too hard.  By the way, sorry if I'm nitpicking, but it's _keksi_ (even though the stem has only one syllable). Anyway, this made me think some more, and I'd say the situation is more complicated than my previous post suggests. 

Namely, _dabogda_ expresses a wish that may happen (however unlikely that may be), a wish about the future that isn't just stating dissatisfaction with the present state, so it doesn't work here in the case with _trafika_. If some of these kiosks actually sold bread, saying _dabogda bilo hleba na ovoj trafici_ would make sense upon seeing one, before you know whether that one sells bread or not. However, since a _trafika_ will never have bread in reality, _dabogda_ isn't the appropriate expression. _Da barem ima hleba_ and _kad bi barem bilo hleba_, on the other hand, would work here.

Likewise, _dabogda ne padala kiša_ and _da barem ne pada kiša_ aren't entirely synonymous like I said above. The sentence with _dabogda_ once again refers to future -- roughly like English "I wish it wouldn't rain -- and its equivalent with _da barem_ would be _da barem ne bude padala kiša_. Yes, I used the second future tense there -- I'm not sure how to explain all the cases where it can be used. If the verb were perfective, its present tense would be used in this sense. _Da barem ne pada kiša_, on the other hand, means that it's raining right now and the speaker doesn't like it -- roughly like English "I wish it didn't rain". Sentences with the conditional can refer to both present and future.

Note that all this is purely my perception, so I wish somebody would agree with me or correct me.

I'm sorry if this has sounded confusing -- you really got me thinking.


----------



## sesperxes

Anicetus said:


> Why's that? Finding a _pekara/pekarnica_ shouldn't be too hard.  By the way, sorry if I'm nitpicking, but it's _keksi_ (even though the stem has only one syllable). Anyway, this made me think some more, and I'd say the situation is more complicated than my previous post suggests.
> 
> Good Lord! It was just an example! I don't know exactly which are the opening hours in Croatia, but in other places I've been, trafike are still open when pekare are already closed: that's why  I'd say "dabodga..".
> 
> Besides, have a look to this site: http://www.coolinarika.com/tag/keksovi/ Yes, it's written "keksovi": if Yugo-bloggers use grammar so freely, what do you want me to do?
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your help with "Dabogda": it seems it wasn't so easy!


----------



## Duya

_Keks_ is another oddball noun. (See nearby thread on _večer_). 

In Croatian only, it is quite regular noun, denoting only a piece of cake (pun intended), and with plural _keksi_: _jedan keks, dva keksa, pet keksâ, kutija keksâ, posluži se keksima_.

In Serbian, and, I believe, Bosnian (Denis?), it is countable when, um, counting, with apparent plural _keksovi_: _jedan keks, dva keksa, pet keksovâ_. However, otherwise it behaves like a mass noun, without plural: _kutija keksa, posluži se keksom_. In all languages, _hljeb/hleb/kruh_ and _pecivo_ behave like that: while they're technically mass nouns, when counted they denote *pieces* of bakery.

Also, all mass nouns may take plural form, but only when denoting *types* or *instances* of something: _španska vina, specijalni hlebovi, zaštićene vode_ etc.


----------



## sesperxes

Duya said:


> _Keks_ is another oddball noun. (See nearby thread on _večer_).
> 
> In Croatian only, it is quite regular noun, denoting only a piece of cake (pun intended), and with plural _keksi_: _jedan keks, dva keksa, pet keksâ, kutija keksâ, posluži se keksima_.
> 
> In Serbian, and, I believe, Bosnian (Denis?), it is countable when, um, counting, with apparent plural _keksovi_: _jedan keks, dva keksa, pet keksovâ_. However, otherwise it behaves like a mass noun, without plural: _kutija keksa, posluži se keksom_. In all languages, _hljeb/hleb/kruh_ and _pecivo_ behave like that: while they're technically mass nouns, when counted they denote *pieces* of bakery.
> 
> Also, all mass nouns may take plural form, but only when denoting *types* or *instances* of something: _španska vina, specijalni hlebovi, zaštićene vode_ etc.



I've just confirmed in the net that Kraš Bajadera bakes "keksi, vafli i čajna peciva" (in Zagreb) while Paning D.O.O. makes "keksove" (in Belgrade).


----------



## Dunav

What's the etymology of this phrase?

Seems to me it could stem from "daj bog/bože da ...", "daj bog/bože, daj (+inf.)", "(da), bog/bože da ..." where 'da' is for the short form of the infinitive. 

So would "dabogda dođe vlak" originally have been "daj bože dođiti vlak", "daj bože da dođe vlak", "(da), bože, da dođe vlak" or what?


----------



## Duya

It is the "bare subjunctive", which is present in curses and blessings, I think, the same or similar construction as in Bulgarian (da bog dae?). First _da_ is the particle (synonymous with _neka_), the second the verb _dati_. Compare _Da (te) bog sačuva_!


----------



## sesperxes

Duya said:


> It is the "bare subjunctive", which is present in curses and blessings, I think, the same or similar construction as in Bulgarian (da bog dae?). First _da_ is the particle (synonymous with _neka_), the second the verb _dati_. Compare _Da (te) bog sačuva_!





If we compare the Our Father in the Serbian and Croatian versions, we have:

 “da se sveti ime Tvoje, da dođe carstvo Tvoje, da bude volja Tvoja”  

and 

“sveti se ime tvoje, dođi kraljestvo tvoje, budi volja tvoja”. 

Do we have this bare subjunctive in both versions of this prayer? 

If it's so, the use of one or other form depends on the inspiration of the writer (wherever he comes from) or on cultural background (ekavian/jekavian, Pravoslavni/Rimski Katolik, srpski/hrvatski...).

Hvala.


----------



## Duya

No, in Croatian version it is the regular imperative. The da+present ("dakanje") is more an eastern, "Balkansprachbund" feature, more prominent in Bulgarian and Macedonian (which lack infinitive completely) and less in Serbian and Bosnian; less still in Croatian. It has variety of uses, one being kind of subjunctive (although grammars do not call it as such) or optative mood, as in examples above. Comparison with Romance subjubctive is apt (please fix my bad French, or substitute Spanish  ): 

_Želim ići:Želim da idem ~ Je veux aller:Je veux que je vais_
_Da bog sačuva! ~ Que le Dieu protège!_


----------



## sesperxes

Hello Duya, 

_You're right with the equivalences:

Želim ići:Želim da idem ~ Je veux (y) aller: Je veux que j'y aille 
Yo quiero ir: Yo quiero que yo vaya
(but the second form, would be reserved to 2nds and 3rds persons that make the action: to say "I want me to go" instead of "I wonna go" is senseless too in French or Spanish, but we say freely "I want you/he/her...to go"). 
_
_Da bog sačuva! ~ Que Dieu nous/vous... protège!_[/QUOTE]
¡Que Dios nos/os... proteja! 
(in both cases, the first part of the sentence would be "želim...je veux... (yo) deseo...). 


In Spanish we have a rather colloquial way of giving orders with only conjunction + subjunctive": ¡que vengas! (=da dođes!), ¿que calles! (=da šutiš!), that's the same structure we would use instead of "dabogda": "¡que llueva! (želim da pada kiša!), "que venga Juan" (żelim da dođe Jovan!). 
In the end, we all say the same things almost in the same way and grammarians insist on saying that we all speak different languages!


----------



## aprendiendo argento

_Dabogda _is not common where I live (Western Croatia)*

1. in formal language we'd say: _Dao Bog da ne pada kiša._ (literal translation in Spanish: _Dé Dios que no cae lluvia_)**
2. in informal language we would say: _Da bar ne pada kiša_ (informal standard; _da bar = ojalá_ but we use it with indicative),_ Magari neće dažd_ (Chakavian dialect, magari from Italian magari ''hopefully'').

---
*
When used, _dabogda _normally takes _optative_, it's used when you want to intimidate/curse someone:  _Dabogda imao puno problema u životu_ (=Ojalá (que) tengas muchos problemas en la vida).
But the pattern is: _dao_ (optative of dati) _Bog da_ (conjunction; Engl. that, Sp. que) + indicative = _dabogda _+ optative = _da bar(em) _(fixed phrase) + indicative

**
You cannot say _Dao Bog ne padati kiša, _not even informally, or in dialects.In informal speech and dialects, infinitive is more used than in the pre1990 Croatian standard, but not it this case_ (for example: Tko Vam je rekao ići na blagajnu? (Who told you to go to the cashier?),  Rekao je doći kasnije (He said he would come later),  Jedva čekam vidjeti Ivanu (I _can't wait to see Ivana), all of these can be heard in Northern and Western Croatia, and new grammarians seem to be promoting this infinitive usage instead of _*da*kanje_).


----------



## sesperxes

aprendiendo argento said:


> _Dabogda _is not common where I live (Western Croatia)*
> 
> ¡Muchas gracias! (finalmente me entero...)


----------

