# Pas plus qu’il ne déblatère ni ne pérore



## polyglotwannabe

Hi, this passage  has already been discussed in the forum. I know the meaning, but there is a part that was not explained and it remains sort of fuzzy, at least for me. And on the that thread someone said that '_pas plus qu' il ne_....' should not be considered a negative particle. _If it is not a negative structure, what is it then, and what is its equivalent in English?._

Affabule-t-il ce professeur à la langue si bien pendue ? *Pas plus qu’il ne *déblatère ni ne pérore ! Si Bernard Cerquiglini fait sonner le français c’est pour en mieux dévoiler les arcanes.

 My try: Is this talkative teacher making up stories as he goes?. ?????
that he is bitching or holding forth.....

Merci bien!
poly.


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## Itisi

No, neither is he ranting or holding forth.


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## polyglotwannabe

Great, itisi. Neither is he....

Thanks a lot


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## tartopom

I guess not far from 'denigrate'. See ?


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## Garoubet

polyglotwannabe said:


> to find fault with, criticize or complain against...


That's correct and usually about people; sort of slinging mud at someone.


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## polyglotwannabe

Yes, I wrote that in reply to itisi, but decided to edit it, because the meaning of 'deblaterer' was not really my doubt. But I think all of you are right. All these words: _*rant, fulminate against, bitch against,  carp, find fault with , spout off, speak at length have their nuances but share a common bond as well.
Thanks to you all.*_


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## Phil512

*Itisi, *what would you think of this as an alternative ?
"Is this talkative teacher making up stories as he goes?. ????? (Poly)
*No, he isn't either vituperating or holding forth"* ?

To me "déblatérer" is essentially "criticize". If I read Cambridge for "rant", I read :
to speak or shout in a loud, *uncontrolled* or angry way, often saying *confused* or *silly* things:
rant Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
In "déblatérer", I personnally don't find/feel "uncontrolled" nor "confused", (maybe not even "silly").


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## Nicomon

Hi Poly,

Were you refering to this other thread ? (I especially like #13).
And  I know you're learning/speaking Spanish too, so this thread (from #13) may be of help (or not).

As read googling : 





> C'est un simple comparatif de supériorité à la forme négative, il me semble.
> [...]
> Bernard Cerquiglini affabule-t-il plus qu'il ne déblatère ? (Non, il n'affabule) pas plus qu'il ne déblatère ->
> Affabule-t-il ce professeur à la langue si bien pendue ? Pas plus qu’il ne déblatère ni ne pérore !
> *Comme il ne déblatère ni ne pérore dans ses vidéos , on en conclut qu'il n'affabule pas non plus.* CQFD.


 A literal (and I assume totally wrong) translation would be : _ Not any more than he... or..._
So like Itisi wrote  :  _No, (and ?) neither is he +  gerund._
I think - someone will correct if I'm wrong - that _ "... nor does he" + infinitive _could work too in another context.

*Edit : * my non native ears really like  Itisi's new version - _No, and he isn't X or Y either_ - below.  
Whatever verb you choose to translate « _déblatérer _» .


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## Itisi

No, and he isn't vituperating or holding forth either
*
"Rant*: verb (used without object)
1.
to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild orvehement way; rave:
The demagogue ranted for hours."

If you don't like 'rant', take your pick from #6!


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## polyglotwannabe

Nico, thank you. That was really good!.


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## Nicomon

Je ne suis pas convaincue de_ vituperating _ (qui me semble d'un autre registre).
_ Vitupérer_ existe en français aussi, et  n'a pas le même sens que _déblatérer _à mon avis.

Dans le contexte, en emploi absolu,  je l'ai compris comme _déblatérer des âneries/sottises _et non _déblatérer contre quelqu'un ou quelque chose._
Voir ce fil : déblatérer des conneries

Il me semble - mais cela n'engage que moi - que le sens_ criticize _ne va pas avec les autres verbes...  _affabuler_ et _pérorer_.


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## j-p-c

Le chameau blatère, déblatérer est avoir un discours vide de sens, alors que vitupérer est blâmer avec violence.


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## Itisi

Déblatérer : Parler avec violence et prolixité contre quelque chose ou contre quelqu'un. (cnrtl)

Tout compte fait, 'rant' convient bien...


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## polyglotwannabe

Nico, I totally agree with you. _déblatérer more like in that sense.
*What Nico pointed me to is a interesting explanation as well. 
I'm pasting it here for the benefit of  the discussion and for future  visitors to the thread. *
"Pour moi, avec *ni* dans la réponse commençant par pas plus que, un seul sens est possible, le sens négatif :
(1) Affabule-t-il ce professeur à la langue si bien pendue ? (*Non*,) pas plus qu’il ne déblatère *ni* ne pérore !

Pour que les deux sens, le positif et le négatif, soient possibles, on est à mon avis obligé de remplacer *ni* par *ou* :
(2a) Affabule-t-il ce professeur à la langue si bien pendue ? (*Oui, mais*) pas plus qu’il ne déblatère *ou* ne pérore !
(2b) Affabule-t-il ce professeur à la langue si bien pendue ? (*Non*,) pas plus qu’il ne déblatère *ou* ne péror_


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## polyglotwannabe

It is not really my question and I am the one learning here, (the student), but I will say that, according to the definition wiki gives of the verb in question, '_*rant*_' should be a good translation in my book. _*Rant*_ is that all encompassing term that means someone is talking aloud, and long, and vehemently and what they are saying is, for the most part, nonsense. (yes, against someone or something)
Yes, I agree with itisi, rant is a good translation.


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## tartopom

Pol, au sujet de ton post # 14. Bon, d'abord, si tu permets, je vais simplifier ton ex.  Parce que avec ' affabuler ' et son pote ' déblatère' et leur cousin ' pérore', j'ai du mal à saisir le sens des phrases.  J'emploie jamais ces mots. En fait, j'ai tout changé. T'es prêt ?
' Raconte-t-il ce type aux cheveux longs des salades? Pas plus qu'il ne crie ni ne jacasse . Si Erwan parle comme ça, c'est pour mieux nous dévoiler tous les secrets de la langue française.' Bon, désolée, j'ai fait du mieux que j'ai pu. 
(1) Raconte-t-il des salades? Non, pas plus qu'il ne crie ni ne jacasse.
(2b) Raconte-t-il des salades? Non, pas plus qu'il ne crie ou ne jacasse.
(2a) Raconte-t-il des salades? Oui, mais  pas plus qu'il ne crie ou ne jacasse. Mais un truc de ouf, tu vois ça me dérangerait pas de dire ' Raconte-t-il des salades ? Oui, mais pas plus qu'il ne crie ni ne jacasse'. Bref, chui pas sûre que le 'ni' implique uniquement le sens négatif. Bon, là je viens de relire la dernière phrase, et j'en suis moins sûre.


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## polyglotwannabe

Thank you tarto, that is really good. I, not only got a kick out of reading it, but it also helped put the structure even more in perspective for me.
Thank you, buddy. I do love french and I am thankful I found you all here on this forum. you have made my learning it so much easier.


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## Nicomon

Itisi said:


> Déblatérer : Parler avec violence et prolixité contre quelque chose ou contre quelqu'un. (cnrtl)


 Oui, mais dans le même CNRTL, on trouve (et je crois bien que c'est le cas ici) : 





> _En emploi abs._ _Il_ [_Logre_] _déblatérait, il déclarait que ce n'était pas possible de continuer comme cela_ (Zola, _Ventre Paris,_1873, p. 750)._ La radio déblatère toujours _(H. Bazin, _Tête contre murs,_1949, p. 363).
> *Rem.* Rob. et _Lar. 20e _attestent un emploi trans. dir. : _déblatérer des sottises. Lar. 20e,_ où le régime est un compl. d'obj. interne. Un tel emploi est rare quoique « correct »


  Je continue de penser que dans le contexte, ce n'est pas « déblatérer contre » que le dico de WR traduit par _to bitch/carp about_, _find fault with.  _
Sinon l'auteur n'aurait pas mis le verbe avec _affabuler_ et _pérorer._ Je le comprends surtout comme j-p-c a écrit :  _discours vide de sens. _

Et oui, je suis d'accord que _rant_ convient mieux que _vituperate_, mais à mon avis de "non native", c'est aussi _blathering _ou_ talking nonsense/rubbish._
Comme wildan et Santana ont écrit dans le fil « _déblatérer des conneries _» (lien plus haut - au #11).


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## Phil512

polyglotwannabe said:


> 2a)_ Affabule-t-il ce professeur à la langue si bien pendue ? (*Oui, mais*) pas plus qu’il ne déblatère *ou* ne pérore !_


Reading the end of the paragraph, which is : "_Si Bernard Cerquiglini fait sonner le français c’est pour en mieux dévoiler les arcanes_", you should exclude this 2a) option, since that end is a positive comment by the author (= after all, although one could think that B. C. is ranting and raving (or similar), the author explains that it is not the case but that B.C., even if he has an overwhelming type of speech, is actually doing something good/positive, by letting people understand the language better, down to its hidden aspects). As I understand it, only your 2a) is valid.

For the record, Tartopom is a lady



Nicomon said:


> my non native ears really like Itisi's new version - _No, and he isn't X or Y either_


This sounds very wise to me. I feel the same. OK !

As of "vituperating" : 


> Intransitive verb
> to use harsh condemnatory language


Definition of VITUPERATE
Could work, imho.

As of "ranting" : I still don't see the "uncontrolled" part of Cambridge definition. "Confused" and "silly" neither. But Larousse and Collins say "fulminer", which is a big asset for Itisi. And Oxford likes it as well. As does Merriam-Webster. Maybe with a preference for "_ranting and raving_" ?


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## Geordie_Wilber

It could also, simply, be translated by "No more than..."

"Is he being sarcastic? No more than he's being flippant nor comic for cheap effect"


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## polyglotwannabe

geordie's offered structure is very common in English, both BE and AE. It is used after anything carryin' a negative connotation to it. Like he said.
Is he making up stories/ spinnin' yarns?. _No, no more than_ he is being flippant....whatever. (no, he is not making up stories as he is not being flippant either)
It is used to confirm the opposite of what has been said before.


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## Nicomon

Geordie_Wilber said:


> It could also, simply, be translated by "No more than..."


 That's what I had in mind. Go figure why I wrote  "_Not any more than he_" in post 8.


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## polyglotwannabe

Les gars:
I put this together for you. These are the first dicos I go to when I am in doubt about a word, then if I am not satisfied I come to you.
==================

*from wiki*

_(Date à préciser)_ Du latin _deblaterare_ (« dire à tort et à travers »), de _blaterare_, fait par onomatopée → voir _blatérer_.

1.Parler fort, longtemps et avec violence ou véhémence *contre* -_(Plus rare)_ *sur* - quelqu’un ou quelque chose.

o   _[…] vous *déblatérez* contre le positif du siècle qui s’empresse d’unir l’argent à l’argent._ — (Honoré de Balzac, _Modeste Mignon_, 1844)

o   _Macquart *déblatérait* amèrement contre les hommes de son parti ._ — (Émile Zola, _La Fortune des Rougon_, 1870)

*(Rare)* Proférer.


*Déblatérer*_ des sottises._
_wiki offers this word 'despotricar' as the closest synonym to *Déblatérer*_
*despotricar is a Spanish word that means :* *Parler sans considération, en disant des insultes ou des atrocités contre quelqu'un ou quelque chose.*
*==================================*

*larousse gives one definition*


Familier. Parler longuement et avec hostilité contre quelqu'un, quelque chose : Déblatérer contre ses voisins.
===================

CNRTL

_Fam._ Parler avec violence et prolixité contre quelque chose ou contre quelqu'un.

*A.−* [Construit avec une prép.]

*1.* _Cour._ [Avec la prép. _contre_] _Il a passé deux heures à déblatérer contre moi_ (_Ac._1798-1932) :

_En emploi abs._ _Il_ [_Logre_] _déblatérait, il déclarait que ce n'était pas possible de continuer comme cela_ (Zola, _Ventre Paris,_1873, p. 750)._La radio déblatère toujours _(H. Bazin, _Tête contre murs,_1949, p. 363).

Rob. et _Lar. 20e_attestent un emploi trans. dir. : _déblatérer des sottises. Lar. 20e,_ où le régime est un compl. d'obj. interne. Un tel emploi est rare quoique « correct » (_déblatérer contre, sur des sottises_ aurait un autre sens); il est prohibé par la gramm. traditionnelle lorsqu'il s'agit d'un compl. autre qu'interne. ,,_Déblatérer _(...) n'admet pas d'objet direct et appelle la préposition _contre (parfois sur)_`` (Grev. 1969, § 599, rem. 8, p. 540)

=================================================

Le Grand Robert

Parler longtemps et avec violence (contre qqn, qqch.). è Déclamer (contre), dénigrer, médire (de), vitupérer. | Déblatérer contre qqn, contre qqch.

 1  Elle donnait cependant à dîner par hasard; mais elle déblatérait contre le café que personne n'aimait, suivant elle, et dont on n'usait que pour allonger le repas.

*Absolt. | Il ne cesse de déblatérer. *

* 2  (…) d'obscurs agents anarchistes continuaient à déblatérer dans les cabarets des faubourgs (…) *

*Louis Madelin, Hist. du Consulat et de l'Empire, le Consulat, ix, p. 141.*

*¨ Transitif. | Déblatérer des injures.*

*CONTR. Louer, vanter.*

*DÉR. Déblatération.*



*I don't know. I might be mistaken and I wouldn't be caught dead arguing with a native speaker about a word. I am here to learn, but this begs the question: don't you see an element of hostility and violence in all the definitions of this word.
My doubt has already been satisfied, but seeing as the verb deblaterer is giving us a hard time we can do this:
I think if we try puttin' the whole text in English we might put it in perspective and see the word in a more clearly light.*

*let's try a whole translation of the text offered and let's see what happens. Just for the fun of it.
Poly*


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## polyglotwannabe

Tarto's paraphrase of  the context was really good for me. I will try to do the same, but in English. Lets see how i fare.


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## polyglotwannabe

Affabule-t-il ce professeur à la langue si bien pendue ?*Pas plus qu’il ne *déblatère ni ne pérore ! Si Bernard Cerquiglini fait sonner le français c’est pour en mieux dévoiler les arcanes.
Is this professor, who loves to talk, making up stories?. No, no more than he is ranting emptily or boasting at great length. So if B.C is sounding off about the french language it is just to bring out / reveal for us in a clearer way its hidden secrets.
Alright now, lay it on me, my dear fellas. How did I do on a scale from 1 to 10?.
You got a goose egg, Poly!.
Thanks for all your help and comments. You are all great!.


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## Phil512

No native here, but asking : isn't it "no, *not* more than...? (so apologies if the question is ridiculous):


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## polyglotwannabe

It's ok, phil. The question is a good question. I have to admit that the Brooklin streets have blurred the line bt 'grammatically  correct' and grammatically disrespectful.
 I think though, if you say 'not then you have to add 'any' after. If you start with 'no', then you can leave the not any more' out.
I'm open to be corrected, though, by anyone whose strength lies in grammar. Not me!. I'm more into words. So no offense taken and a very valid question from you.
And thank you for all the help you give out here on the forum.


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## Itisi

Phil512 said:


> isn't it "no, *not* more than...?


No.

*pgwb*: 'pérorer' dos not mean 'to boast', but 'to hold forth'.  (I just hope this is not going to cause another deluge of dictionary definitions!)


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## polyglotwannabe

Thanks, itisi. I knew I was bound to miss it, and I needed your input so I could start tweaking it.
"Is this professor, who loves to talk, making up stories?. No, no more than he is ranting emptily _*or holding forth. *_So if B.C is sounding off about the french language it is just to bring out / reveal for us in a clearer way its hidden secrets.
Thanks


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## Itisi

I missed this: 'faire sonner' does not mean 'sounding off about', but 'making it resound'.


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## polyglotwannabe

Yes, that one I knew, but I was trying to find a better translation than 'making it resound'. Let me think. If I can not come up with something  better than that, then I will use that one. It is too literal but will have to do if nothin' better slips into my mind.


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## Itisi

'Sounding off about' is not a better translation, it's a mistranslation.


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## polyglotwannabe

Yes, 'making it resound' is good.( would be like filling the place or the air with the sounds or the echo of french). So,
"
"Is this professor, who loves to talk, making up stories?. No, no more than he is ranting emptily _*or holding forth.(variant: And no, he is not ranting emptily or holding forth either). *_So if B.C is making French resound it is just to bring out / reveal for us in a clearer way its hidden secrets.


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## polyglotwannabe

I think that, if not perfect, it's much better now.
Thanks, itisi and everyone.
PS: _Right_, sounding off is expressing your views rather vigorously while pérorer is just holding forth, speechifying', or talking in a very tedious and pompous way. Two different things.


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## polyglotwannabe

I added a variant to a translation of a part at# 33. I think according to the English structure it could also be said that way.


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## Nicomon

polyglotwannabe said:


> I am here to learn, but this begs the question: don't you see an element of hostility and violence in all the definitions of this word.


 I see one,  but in « _déblatérer contre_ ». Not if I read « _déblatérer_ » by itself (emploi absolu) in which case, and here repeating myself again (# 11 and 18),
I see it like j-p-c wrote in post 12 or as in _blathering/talking nonsense_. Especially in this  context where it's associated with verbs like _affabule_r/_pérorer.   _
Right or wrong,  that's the way I read it. I can't help it... in my (very) stubborn mind the idea of hostility and violence doesn't work here.

Now of course, I don't expect everybody or anybody to agree with me.


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## polyglotwannabe

Yes, Nico. I also agree. Don't think the '_violence'_ connotation fits in there. But in the English translation that I gave the use of violence is not included, or so I think.
Ranting is not necessarily violent. Vociferous it might certainly be, but not obligatorily  violent.  Do you like the translation into English?. If not, What would you replace?. It is ok with me. I am a learner. I never think I know anything so you can fire away.


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## Nicomon

As a non native, I don't think that I'm in a very good position to make a judgement on a translation to English.
I do think that _ranting emptily _works better than _vituperating_, though.


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## polyglotwannabe

I am gonna be honest to you. I added _emptily,_ but I am not convinced it goes well with 'rant' either. I feel like I should've written just 'rant' . So that puts two in the same boat. I have never seen these two words together.
One thing I'm sure of. I know now what '*Pas plus qu’il ne' *means.


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## Geordie_Wilber

Nicomon said:


> That's what I had in mind. Go figure why I wrote  "_Not any more than he_" in post 8.





Phil512 said:


> No native here, but asking : isn't it "no, *not* more than...? (so apologies if the question is ridiculous):





Itisi said:


> No.



Sorry @Nicomon but I'm with @Itisi, it's neither the same nor what I would consider to be correct. I could have made that clearer by quoting you though, mea culpa.


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## Geordie_Wilber

polyglotwannabe said:


> geordie's offered structure is very common in English, both BE and AE.
> _No, no more than_ he is being flippant....whatever.



From a BE perspective at least,  "No, no more than..." has a redundant "no". I would use "No more than" tout court.


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## polyglotwannabe

I see one, but in « _déblatérer contre_ ». Not if I read « _déblatérer_ » by itself (emploi absolu) in which case, and here repeating myself again (# 11 and 18),
I see it like j-p-c wrote in post 12 or as in _blathering/talking nonsense_. Especially in this context where it's associated with verbs like _affabule_r/_pérorer. _
*from Nico*

I have been thinking hard about the translation into English of the text in question. I am not quite satisfied with  'ranting' either. Two strong a word for such a weak context.
I checked again the thread Nico offered and, yes, I think I am going to change my _'rant'_ to _'talk nonsense_' (there is a wide array  of synonyms as you well know). I don't think a coarse synonym would fit either. So,
Is this professor, who loves to talk, making up stories?. No more than _he is talking  nonsense (blathering,rattling on_) _*or *holding forth*. (*Variant: No, he is not talking nonsense or holding forth either_*)*_*. *_So, if B.C is making French resound it is just to bring out / reveal for us in a clearer way its hidden secrets.
I believe, in my modest opinion, this is a cohesive translation allowed by another meaning of the word '*déblatère*' =
_as in _*'déblatère conneries'. It makes sense now to me, and I am satisfied. *
*I also edited the redundant 'no', which I agree is also superflous.
*
*Thanks to you all for all the help and advice. Ya'll are something else!*
*Later!*


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