# debitoribus nostris



## chatkigazouille

Hi all,

When one says the Pater Noster, why is it that one uses debitoribus, i.e in dative case? Why is it not in the accusative case?

Dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos _dimi*t*timus debitoribus nostris
_
Literally dimittimus means we dismiss, I'd think this is a transitive phrase. So wouldn't it be logical then that debitores be used (i.e. 'someone who has to pay'), therefore: we dismiss someone who has to pay?

Appreciate the help, thanks!

EDIT: corrected the spelling of dimittimus


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## Cagey

_Dimitte debita nostra_ [acc] _nobis_ [dative]

_dimitimus debitoribus nostris _[dative] -- with _debita_ [acc] understood


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## Scholiast

salvete!

There is a distinction between the _Direct_ and the _Indirect_ Object. In the first part of the sentence, 'debita nostra' is the Direct Object, in the Accusative, and 'nobis' is Dative, the usual case for an Indirect Object: 'Dismiss our transgressions _for us_'.

The second part of the sentence echoes the grammatical logic of the first, only with 'sins/transgressions' omitted, because it is understood.

Compare 'I gave him a book, and her too'.

The book is accusative, but 'him' and 'her' are dative.

I hope this helps.

Σ


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## bearded

chatkigazouille said:


> dimitimus


It should be _dimi*tt*imus._


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## chatkigazouille

Thanks @Cagey, @Scholiast that's helpful

@bearded - fixed, thanks!


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## fdb

Thus also in the Greek original (και αφες ημιν τα οφειληματα ημων ως και ημεις αφηκαμεν τοις οφειλεταις ημων), and also in the English KJV: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors" (scil. "theirs"). Mt. 6:12.

The _Book of common prayer _(1661) has: "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us", which again requires an understood "theirs", though those not acquainted with the Greek and Latin versions are unlikely to understand it thus.


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## chatkigazouille

@fdb I also looked up the Vulgate translation to French (1895) by abbé Fillion of the same verse, it says

"Remettez-nous nos dettes comme nous-mêmes nous remettons *à* ceux qui nous doivent."

So just from this "ceux qui nous doivent" is in the dative form with à... so it makes sense that the Latin is in dative; it's the debt that is forgiven, the debt that is attributed to the debtor.


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## Scholiast

salvete omnes!

This (chatgazouille # 7) makes sense. It may in this context be of interest that the Scottish Presbyterians remain by 'debt' and 'debtors', while Anglicans use 'trespasses' and 'trespass'.

Were I translating the thing from scratch, I would be inclined to use the word 'failings'  and 'those who fail us'.

But maybe that is a step too far.

Σ


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