# mercilessness



## silvae

Bonjour!
Je cale pour trouver une traduction en un mot de "mercilessness". A par "sans miséricorde (argh!) je ne vois pas trop...
Merci d'avance!
silvae


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## Jean-Michel Carrère

caractère impitoyable might work, depending on *context* !


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## clairet

manque de pitié?


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## silvae

Oops sorry, I forget to post the exerpt...

Here 'tis : "Ceci ne saurait être attribué à un quelconque _manque de charité?_ des jeunes de cette génération, mais plutôt à la détérioration globale de leur situation économique."

The context is explaining why financial help always goes from the older generation to the younger.

Sorry!


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## Jean-Michel Carrère

Les mots français qui complétent à mon sens le plus naturellement cette phrase sont "égoïsme" ou "indifférence", mais ni l'un ni l'autre n'est une traduction exacte de "mercilessness".


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## Teafrog

I'm uncertain as to your goal. Are you translating from French into English or the other way around?

Taken on its own, as per original Q, Jean-Michel Carrère is spot on with his suggestion:
"to be merciless" = "être impitoyable", > "mercilessness" = "Insensibilité" (since there is no "impitoyabilité", as far as I know).
Is findind a proper-and-existing word for "impitoyabilité" the crux of your question? Sorry, I'm a little slow today 

I'm perplexed as your exerpt doesn't seem to have much in common with your first Q. I must be missing something, but what?


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## silvae

To answer your questions:
The crux of the question was to find some equivalent to "mercilessness" in French. I was writing my text in French, but I could only find my words in English as it is my mothertongue (I am told this is common, though). Then  someone asked for the context, so I put up my sentence as it was a that point, with the French phrase I had temporarily inserted.

Thanks for all your suggestions!


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## Teafrog

Got it. Sorry if I seemed a little obtuse!
I gave it my best shot and am curious as to what the French 'brigade' will come up with. What a pity there isn't "impitoyabilité" in the French vocab.
"être sans pitié" is the only thing springing to my mind.

It would be good to give them (the natives) the sentence in French and indicate where you wish to have the French equivalent of "mercilessness" inserted. What I'm saying here, it is not immediately apparent what is required. Give them something they can 'sink their teeth in', as it were 
Good luck.


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## silvae

Okay then. Reposting #4 here, but hopefully with greater clarity :

I'm looking for an equivalent to mercilessness that would fit well into the following exerpt (temporary replacement in italics followed by a question mark).

Here 'tis : "Ceci ne saurait être attribué à un quelconque _manque de charité?_ des jeunes de cette génération, mais plutôt à la détérioration globale de leur situation économique."

I am explaining why financial bequests/donations usually only flow from the older generation to the younger within a family, even when the older generation is in need.

That better? ^^


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## Teafrog

silvae said:


> I'm looking for an equivalent to mercilessness that would fit well into the following exerpt.
> 
> "Ceci ne saurait être attribué à un quelconque *manque de charité* des jeunes de cette génération, mais plutôt à la détérioration globale de leur situation économique."
> 
> I am explaining why financial bequests/donations usually only flow from the older generation to the younger within a family, even when the older generation is in need.



Yup, that's clearer. I took the liberty to change the font, as the italics were not clear against it, and I've place the 'offending' text in bold (and cleared the itals). This should make it an easy target for the French marksmen 

 How about, for good measure, include your English text as well, in the name of 'clarity' (whatever that may be)?


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## silvae

There is no English text: I live in France and am thus typing directly in French... it's more of a memory lapse as to the phrase I should use, really.

Again, thanks for your help!


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## geve

I hope you don't mind French markswomen.  Je pense à *cruauté* (mais c'est peut-être un peu fort) ou *insensibilité *(peut-être plus fort que _l'indifférence_ suggérée par Jean-Michel).
Mais d'après le contexte, est-ce qu'il n'y a pas également une idée de _*cupidité* _? Ces jeunes sont-ils qualifiés de "merciless" parce qu'ils profitent sans complexe de l'aide financière de leur parents ?


edit -- Sinon, il y a toujours la possibilité d'utiliser "manque de..." comme le suggérait clairet - par exemple, _manque de compassion_ (je préfère "compassion" à "pitié").


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## silvae

Oui, en quelque sorte : on explique pourquoi les transferts financiers intergénérationnels sont uniquement "descendants". Alors ta proposition fonctionne.
Pushing her luck => Quelquechose entre indifférence et cupidité serait l'idéal! ^^

Merci encore.


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## geve

silvae said:


> Pushing her luck => Quelquechose entre indifférence et cupidité serait l'idéal! ^^


Now that is pushing your luck indeed. 
Mais je vois une solution pour combiner les deux idées dans ta phrase : _Cette apparente cupidité ne saurait être attribuée à une quelconque insensibilité/un manque de compassion des jeunes de cette génération... _
What say you?


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Y'aurait pas un peu d'ingratitude dans tout ça ?  (pour ne pas donner en retour ce qu'on a reçu...)


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## geve

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> Y'aurait pas un peu d'ingratitude dans tout ça ?  (pour ne pas donner en retour ce qu'on a reçu...)


  L'ingratitude, voilà bien un défaut que la "vieille" génération attribue communément aux jeunes !


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## Moon Palace

imho, insensibilité fits in with the economic portrait which is drawn of the young, I wouldn't add to it the notion of 'ingratitude' since this stems from a different perspective: that of reciprocity, which doesn't seem to be at stake in the original sentence. Now, I am not sure either we should add 'cupidité' since that one refers to the wish to keep money to oneself, whereas the main pb of the young is that they don't even have enough money to do this. 
My two cents...


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## geve

Moon Palace said:


> Now, I am not sure either we should add 'cupidité' since that one refers to the wish to keep money to oneself, whereas the main pb of the young is that they don't even have enough money to do this.


C'est pour ça que j'ai écrit dans ma proposition "cette apparente cupidité".


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## Moon Palace

geve said:


> C'est pour ça que j'ai écrit dans ma proposition "cette apparente cupidité".



Apparente gives it more reality instead of qualifying it. Why not 'supposée cupidité'? Or 'ce qui semble être de la cupidité'? 
I may be splitting hair, but this is just my personal feeling..


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## clairet

just checking - is everyone aware we've moved from discussing mercilessness to discussing greed?


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## geve

clairet said:


> just checking - is everyone aware we've moved from discussing mercilessness to discussing greed?


Because in Silvae's context, it is possible that mercilessness includes a little bit of greed.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Moon Palace said:


> [...] I wouldn't add to it the notion of 'ingratitude' since this stems from a different perspective: that of reciprocity, which doesn't seem to be at stake in the original sentence. [...]


It was my feelings after reading this post #13 from silvae, hence my question.


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## Moon Palace

Yes, I have read the posts and your question Karine, but my reflection stemmed from what we were aiming at saying, added to the few surveys I have read about this topic, which tend to point out the lack of altruism of the young generation as such, not just the lack of gratefulness. Just the idea that the young generation seem to live for themselves, but it is quite understandable since they have to fend for themselves much harder if I may say so than the older had to at the same age. 
Hope the reason why I thought gatefulness would be wrong is clearer now. But of course it is only mho.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Moon Palace said:


> [...] Hope the reason why I thought gatefulness would be wrong is clearer now. [...]


A bit more, thanks.  
What would be the best fitting word here, in your opinion?


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## Moon Palace

Ceci ne saurait être attribué à un quelconque _manque de charité?_ des jeunes de cette génération, mais plutôt à la détérioration globale de leur situation économique."

Ce qui semble être un individualisme marqué des jeunes de cette génération ne saurait être attribué à leur insensibilité au sort d'autrui, mais plutôt ...

Here is what I suggest, as you may see, I have added both the concept of individualism which depicts their behaviour, and the one of a lack of sensitivity which clearly shows their behaviour is not due to a particular state of mind, but as the end says to an economic situation. 

To explain with regards to 'mercilessness', I think it conveys two things : a behaviour, a ruthless and selfish one, and a feeling : scorn of other human beings. And I can't think of a French word that would encompass all these characteristics. 
Hope it helps


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## Nicomon

silvae said:


> Oui, en quelque sorte : on explique pourquoi les transferts financiers intergénérationnels sont uniquement "descendants". Alors ta proposition fonctionne.
> Pushing her luck => Quelquechose entre indifférence et cupidité serait l'idéal! ^^
> 
> Merci encore.


 
J'avais suggéré _intransigeance_ (mais ça ne convenait pas du tout) et _inclémence_ ... puis j'ai changé d'idée, p.c.q. le mot n'a pas bien vieilli. 

Il me vient maintenant en tête_ mesquinerie _ou_ inhumanité_ (celui-là est peut-être un peu trop fort)

Mais je pense comme Jean-Michel (post #5) que _égoïsme _est le mot qui convient le mieux. Ou alors peut-être _égocentrisme_ (plutôt qu'individualisme).


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## Nicomon

*égoisme mesquin*.  Je cherche, je cherche...



> Il ne se laissera ôter sa liberté ni par la foule que la mode entraîne quelquefois, ni par les gouvernements qu’un égoïsme mesquin conseille trop souvent.
> Victor Hugo, _Littérature et philosophie mêlées_, Projet Gutenberg​


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## Nicomon

geve said:


> L'ingratitude, voilà bien un défaut que la "vieille" génération attribue communément aux jeunes !


 
Ça me semble très bien aussi.  Et puis par association d'idées... merciless = sans merci (merci dans le sens de sans pitié). 
Mais aussi sans merci = ne sais pas dire merci = ingrat. Pourquoi pas?

Un jeune ingrat est...

Sans gratitude — égoïste, oublieux, sans-cœur.


Au fait, ils ont quel âge à ton avis, les gens de la "vieille" génération.  Assez joué, je vais me coucher.


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## silvae

Thank you so much for all your wonderful suggestions!

I must admit I'm still hesitating between "Ce qui semble être un individualisme/égocentrisme/égoïsme des jeunes de cette génération ne saurait être attribué à leur insensibilité au sort d'autrui, mais plutôt..." et "ingratitude" (mais je verrai bien en laissant décanter).

Cette apparente insensibilité ne saurait être attribuée à une quelconque ingratitude des jeunes de cette génération?

On the other hand, what do you think of the nuance in meaning between "égoïste", because they are if (apparently) won't give their older relatives anything, even in their times of need, and "égocentrique" because they (again apparently) think it is normal for their parents to always be the ones doing the giving.

I hope that was clear. >< Thank you!


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## geve

silvae said:


> On the other hand, what do you think of the nuance in meaning between "égoïste", because they are if (apparently) won't give their older relatives anything, even in their times of need, and "égocentrique" because they (again apparently) think it is normal for their parents to always be the ones doing the giving.


For me, _égocentrisme_ means the world revolves around you, you are the center of the universe, whereas _égoïsme_ means that you don't care about other people and your interests should always come first... Slight nuance, I admit. 

La "vieille" génération, ce sont ceux qui sont capables de dire des phrases qui commencent par "de toute façon les jeunes d'aujourd'hui ils sont tous..." J'en fais partie, parfois.


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## clairet

Maybe it's too late to come in with this, but it seems to me that the English word for the original context is not "mercilessness" but "selfishness" (which combines lack of concern for others with an element of greed).  That seems to be "égoisme".


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