# la mairie de Paris



## millababe

Hello.

Just wondering  what Mairie de Paris means? is it city of Paris?

mairie alone means town hall / city hall but I thought you may use it as to say to the full name: City of Paris.

if any1 has a clue please let me know thnx

Milla


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## Teafrog

millababe said:


> Hello.
> 
> Just wondering  what Mairie de Paris means? is it city of Paris?
> 
> mairie alone means town hall / city hall but I thought you may use it as to say to the full name: City of Paris.
> 
> if any1 has a clue please let me know thnx
> 
> Milla


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## mattaku

_City of Paris _translates as _la ville de Paris. Mairie _definitely means _town hall, _but in some cases, _ville _can also mean _town hall. _For example: "L'entreprise a conclu un contrat avec la ville de Paris."


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## Paf le chien

Mairie de Paris = Paris City Hall

But Paris is divided into smaller districts called "arrondissements", numbered in roman numerals, from "Ier arrondissement to "XXe arrondissement" (in fact   there is a XXIe, but it is very special, outside Paris, an unkown by Paris inhabitants. It does not have any Town Hall).

For each of them, there is a Town hall we call with its "arrondissement number" (in roman numeric) :

Mairie du Ve
Mairie du XVe
Mairie de XVIIIe
etc.

The creation of a "central" City Hall in Paris is quite recent (by Jacques Chirac before he was President, ~20/25 years ago) to make the new the honorific position of "Maire de Paris"...

HtH


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## Denis the fatalist

Paf le chien said:


> The creation of a "central" City Hall in Paris is quite recent (by Jacques Chirac before he was President, ~20/25 years ago) to make the new the honorific position of "Maire de Paris"...


 
Before this time Paris and a few garrison-towns had this pecular status to be mainly run by the local "Prefet" (Prefet de Police in Paris, Préfet militaire in garrison towns. The mayors had a really secondary role. 
I think there was already a Maire de Paris (ie a general one) but purely honorific and totally unknown. Jacques Chirac took the place and made it important as a politicall weapon (honorific vs horrorific ?)
Yet the Prefet de Police still keeps very strong powers im Paris - and can allow something the maire refused and refuse something the maire authorized...


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## Paf le chien

Denis the fatalist said:


> Before this time Paris and a few garrison-towns had this pecular status to be mainly run by the local "Prefet" (Prefet de Police in Paris, Préfet militaire in garrison towns. The mayors had a really secondary role.
> I think there was already a Maire de Paris (ie a general one) but purely honorific and totally unknown. Jacques Chirac took the place and made it important as a politicall weapon (honorific vs horrorific ?)
> Yet the Prefet de Police still keeps very strong powers im Paris - and can allow something the maire refused and refuse something the maire authorized...


Thank you, Denis the fatalist for those explanations : I didn't even know there were a "Maire de Paris" before Chirac.

So "honorific _vs_ horrorific" make sens No "politics" on fora


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## Teafrog

Paf, where is that elusive and "special" XXIe outside Paris? Is it Clichy? Why is it "special"?

Another (very small) touristic contribution, is that these arrondissements curl around Paris in the shape of a snail's shell (en colimaçon?), with the 1st arr in the centre.


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## Denis the fatalist

Teafrog said:


> Paf, where is that elusive and "special" XXIe outside Paris? Is it Clichy? Why is it "special"? Another (very small) touristic contribution, is that these arrondissements curl around Paris in the shape of a snail's shell (en colimaçon?), with the 1st arr in the centre.


The only XXIe I could think of is "la commune libre de Montmartre", which would have anaother number.
I would also say two things :
- when Paris had only tewelve "arrondissements", "s'être marié dans le 13éme" meant not to live together out of the sacred links of marriage

- if the "arrondissements" are numbered in "colimaçon", it's very important because it's precisely the difference between gallic and roman places (San Francisco square corners being Roman, and most villages here around the Mediterranean sea being ihelical shaped.) And according to Henry Miller, Clichy is quiet...


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## Denis the fatalist

Denis the fatalist said:


> The only XXIe I could think of is "la commune libre de Montmartre", which would have anaother number.
> I would also say two things :
> - when Paris had only tewelve "arrondissements", "s'être marié dans le 13éme" meant not to live together out of the sacred links of marriage
> 
> - if the "arrondissements" are numbered in "colimaçon", it's very important because it's precisely the difference between gallic and roman places (San Francisco square corners being Roman, and most villages here around the Mediterranean sea being ihelical shaped.) And according to Henry Miller, Clichy is quiet...


Big thingers stroke again, I hope you changed what was wrong in typing..


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## Paf le chien

Teafrog said:


> Paf, where is that elusive and "special" XXIe outside Paris? Is it Clichy? Why is it "special"?



Between "La Celle-St-Cloud" and "Vélizy".

It is a _very_ big private parcel which has been yield to Paris City by its owner at his death. Today, it is only a lodging place but, even if postal addresses are in La-Celle-St-Cloud, it (and its inhabitants) administratively depends on Paris City  (I don't know which "arrondissement"...).

It is very funny to read, on a pane, at the entrance, "XXIe arrondissement de Paris"


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## eclypse

Bonjour, 

Quelle serait la meilleur traduction pour la phrase suivante:

La mairie (de Paris) a présenté, la semaine passée, la méthode d'élaboration de son futur "plan de lutte contre le dérèglement climatique"

The Paris government / townhall / council ???

Thank you in advance


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## Paf le chien

Paris city hall


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## Moon Palace

City Hall is AE, BE is town hall I believe.


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## Paf le chien

Moon Palace said:


> City Hall is AE, BE is town hall I believe.



Even for a city ?


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## Moon Palace

Paf le chien said:


> Even for a city ?



No, you're right, it is just that 'city hall' is the word used in the US, but it also used in the UK for big cities. My mistake. Sorry


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## paulio

yes, we don't have the phrase City Hall over here at all. I don't think town hall works though (partly because townhall does really apply to towns). I wouldn't call the GLA or the Mayor's Office in London the townhall... I think I'd be tempted to say the government of Paris.


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## Punky Zoé

IMHO, here mairie doesn't refer to the building but to the institution, then maybe council could work.


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## Moon Palace

Why not the Mayor's Office? Since it must have been announced by the spokesman of the Mayor anyway.


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## mym

Could you talk of a "municipal council"? Or a "municipal corporation"?


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## Califano

Personally, and in this context, I'd translate it as "the Paris city council".


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## Paf le chien

Moon Palace said:


> Why not the Mayor's Office? Since it must have been announced by the spokesman of the Mayor anyway.



Does "The Paris city Mayor's office" be correct in UE ? If yes, I think it is *the* translation in the context (after reading the thread carefully), because they don't speak of any council (in Paris, the council is now completely hidden behind the Mayor — thanks, Mr Chirac )


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## Pedro y La Torre

Paf le chien said:


> Does "The Paris city Mayor's office" be correct in UE ? If yes, I think it is *the* translation in the context (after reading the thread carefully), because they don't speak of any council (in Paris, the council is now completely hidden behind the Mayor — thanks, Mr Chirac )



Yes it would.


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## shoenning

In such a context, I would not refer to the City Hall but to the city itself, and "La Mairie de Paris" would go "The City of Paris"


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## Moon Palace

shoenning said:


> In such a context, I would not refer to the City Hall but to the city itself, and "La Mairie de Paris" would go "The City of Paris"


Good guess, this reminds me of a decision by San Francisco regarding plastic bags, and I never read anything about a town hall or a council, merely 'SF'. Could work


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## eclypse

Moon Palace said:


> No, you're right, it is just that 'city hall' is the word used in the US, but it also used in the UK for big cities. My mistake. Sorry


 
Just to add to the confusion, the city of Manchester, which is England's second or third biggest city (depending on who you ask), has a town hall!


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## Moon Palace

Thanks for the reminder, Eclypse, it will teach me to stick with my first impressions. All the more so as I spent a whole year in Manchester, should have known better!!


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## eclypse

You have all suggested some really good ideas, so now I have to chose between:

"Last week, 
-The city of Paris
-Paris' Mayor's Office
-Paris' City Council
-Paris Government 
put forward its draft proposal for its future "plan against climate change"  

"La mairie a présenté, la semaine passée, la méthode d'élaboration de son futur "plan de lutte contre le dérèglement climatique"

Thank you for all your help


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## Paf le chien

_*I*_'d choose:

1. "Paris' Mayor's Office"

2. "The city of Paris"

_*I*_'d _not_ choose:

- Paris Government (because there is no Paris' government)
- Paris' City Council (because todays, Paris' council is completely hidden behind its Mayor)


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## orc13

If it helps to get yet another opinion, I'd agree with Califano and say "the Paris city council" (this was my first instinct), or The City of Paris. For me, "la mairie" represents a group of people headed by the mayor (even if the mayor dominates), and "the Mayor's Office" or city hall would only be a location.


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## Moon Palace

(exceptionally? ) I agree with Paf


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## Pedro y La Torre

Paf le chien said:


> _*I*_'d _not_ choose:
> 
> - Paris Government (because there is no Paris' government)
> - Paris' City Council (because todays, Paris' council is completely hidden behind its Mayor)



Just a small thing, you generally cannot use _I'd_ in the negative. In this case it must be, I would.


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## Paf le chien

Pedro y La Torre said:


> Just a small thing, you generally cannot use _I'd_ in the negative. In this case it must be, I would.


Thank you Pedro y La Torre for the tip ! 

That makes "cut-and-paste" less easy for lazy people (like me)


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## eclypse

Paf le chien said:


> _*I*_'d choose:
> 
> 1. "Paris' Mayor's Office"
> 
> 2. "The city of Paris"
> 
> _*I*_'d _not_ choose:
> 
> - Paris Government (because there is no Paris' government)
> - Paris' City Council (because todays, Paris' council is completely hidden behind its Mayor)


 
Makes sense, thank you and thank you all


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## LMorland

I agree with Paf_le_chien, with the following emendations:


eclypse said:


> Now I have to chose between:
> 
> "Last week,
> -the city of Paris
> -Paris' Mayor's Office_ [possibly: the Paris Mayor's Office]_
> -Paris' City Council _[possibly: the Paris City Council]_
> -Paris Government
> put forward its draft proposal for its future plan against climate change_.  [no apostrophes]_



A word to the wise:  English uses quotation marks differently than does French in such an instance.  Retaining the apostrophes, in English, implies an ironic distance from what is quoted.  

Here's a hypothetical example:  _The mayor put forward his "plan for cleaner streets" when we all know that it's just a sop to the garbage mafia. _

So I would definitely remove the apostrophes!


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## eclypse

The Paris Mayor's Office and the Paris City Council sounds so wrong to me, and that is just because I have never seen any reference to "the Manchester City Council" but maybe that's just me ?? 

In any case, if the general consensus is to use "city council" then that's what I'll do, thank you all for your contributions.


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## LMorland

eclypse said:


> In any case, if the general consensus is to use "city council" then that's what I'll do, thank you all for your contributions.



Well, "city council" doesn't sound so right to me, either -- I just accepted it as a possibility.  My vote (see above) was for "the City of Paris".

I just went to their website, and I found the following on this page http://www.paris.fr/portail/Environ..._type_id=5&document_id=14610&portlet_id=14265    :
*
La Ville s'engage dans la lutte contre l'effet de  serre*
L’administration parisienne a entrepris un vaste programme
 de diminution et  de maîtrise de sa consommation en énergie 
de chauffage dans ses équipements  (plus de 2 000 écoles, 
crèches, piscines, bains douches, musées, mairies…). 

So I think that their statement supports my vote! 

P.S.  I just did a Google search, and the consensus in America is to write either "Mayor X announced...." or "The Mayor's office announced...."  But if your target audience is British, maybe you should check out Google UK; the first three pages of my results were all American.


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## Moon Palace

I agree with LMorland, the question is whether the French usage of mentioning a town as the subject of an action - a metonymy - is also valid in English. I would tend to say it is, as supports the article I read on San Francisco.


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## LMorland

Moon Palace said:


> I agree with LMorland, the question is whether the French usage of mentioning a town as the subject of an action - a metonymy - is also valid in English. I would tend to say it is, as supports the article I read on San Francisco.



Oh yes, Moon Palace -- you are absolutely right to make sure that such a metonymy exists, and I am sure that it does (see my P.S. above, which I added after you wrote your comment).

In fact, when I was taught the difference between metonymy and synecdoche, the example we were given for the former was "The White House says..."  The same example is given by Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy#Metonymy_and_synecdoche 

Bonsoir,

Laura


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## orlando09

Califano said:


> Personally, and in this context, I'd translate it as "the Paris city council".


 
Me too, it is the simplest - says exactly what it is - a city version of a town council. You can have city councils in the UK too anyway - leeds city council, for example.

I don;t think we tend to say use "the city of Paris" - or the city of manchester, etc to refer to the council of said place in Britian as much as the French do. For example, in Nice, the city council is often referred to just as Nice Ville, whereas I think in Britian you would say : Manchester City Council has decided.... rather than the City of Manchester has decided... it just makes it absolutely clear you are referring to the official body, not , for example, to all the peop[le of the city in general.

Also, mairie is just the ordinary French word for a town council in France, so I don't think it's necessary to use an unusual (for Britian) phrase like "mayor's office". However I don;t know that much about Paris local politics - if the mayor really does dominate eveything personally, then you could perhaps just say "the mayor..."


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## LMorland

orlando09 said:


> I don't think we tend to say use "the city of Paris" - or the city of Manchester, etc to refer to the council of said place in Britian as much as the French do.



I guess it's another BE/AE difference, then. Just for the record, here's an example I chose at random from the Net: 

The City of Lynchburg, Virginia, furnishes a smaller-scaled but equally creative example. In 1997, *the City began to construct* a 42-mile fiber optic network .... *The City essentially paid *for the network within 18 months.... Local businesses and residents *urged the City *to make its system available to the public.... In response, *the City embarked on* a nationwide search for a strategic partner... *The City eventually sold *the system....

Just as you were saying with _la ville de Nice !_


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## orlando09

Fair enough - I think then, you are right, this usage would be more common in the US. I'm not saying it's impossible or incomprehensible in British English, but not used so much IMO


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## eclypse

Paf le chien said:


> Mairie de Paris = Paris City Hall
> (...) For each of them, there is a Town hall we call with its "arrondissement number"


 
So are you saying that the "Mairie" of Paris is the only "mairie" that qualifies as a *City* Hall (as opposed to a *Town* Hall)


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## Gerard Samuel

To my mind, the city council is in the legislative branch of government, while the mayor's office is in the executive branch of government. They are fundamentally different.


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## LMorland

True enough, Gerard Samuel, but the use of language does not often reflect that distinction -- in either French or English.

 I refer you to the sample I quoted above (taken at random from the Internet):


> The City of Lynchburg, Virginia, furnishes a smaller-scaled but equally creative example. In 1997, *the City began to construct a 42-mile fiber optic network .... The City essentially paid for the network within 18 months.... Local businesses and residents urged the City to make its system available to the public.... In response, the City embarked on a nationwide search for a strategic partner... The City eventually sold the system....*


In such a case, as with "la Ville de Paris," the reader is not thinking about how the "sausage" (of legislation) came to be. Did the city council -- i.e., the legislative branch -- propose, and the mayor -- i.e., executive branch -- simply dispose? 

I submit that the reader in this present instance doesn't care about how the "plan" was created: he just wants to know what it is, and presumably how it will impact him or his business.  The original phrase elides the two components of the _mairie_ -- the legislative and the executive -- into one unified subject : _la mairie._


> La mairie (de Paris) a présenté, la semaine passée, la méthode d'élaboration de son futur plan de lutte contre le dérèglement climatique


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## WME

I would add a capital V for disambiguation. "Un contrat avec la Ville". That's what they do in legal documents.
By the way, when referring to the ADMINISTRATION, is it better to write "The City Hall of Paris", or "Paris City Hall"  ?


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## wendyredredrobin

I see UK The Guardian uses Paris Mayor's Office, which is good enough for me.


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## LMorland

When referring to the ADMINISTRATION, is it better to write
"The City Hall of Paris" 
or
"Paris City Hall"  ?

As to the previous post, the "Mayor's Office" may work better in the U.K. than in the U.S.  When (an American) I see the phrase "the Mayor's Office," I immediately think of the actual office where she or he sits at their desk, with their phone, computer, assistants coming in and out....


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## wildan1

I think in AE would would, in an official document, refer to it as _"The Office of the Mayor of Paris".
_
In daily conversation,_ Paris City Hall._


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