# pronunciation: words ending with y [long e sound vs short i]



## stephenlearner

Hi,

What does the letter Y sound in the following words?
Long /E/ as in bee or short /I/ as in bit?

every
Mary
crazy
hurry
history
very
worry
angry
story

Thanks.


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## Language Hound

It sounds like the "e" in "bee."

Edited to add: You can listen to the pronunciation of many WR dictionary entries by clicking on the sound icon at the top of the page.  Listen to the pronunciation of "every" here.


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## Andygc

Neither. As Language Hound said, you can listen to pronunciation in online dictionaries.


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## stephenlearner

Yes, I did listen. But I found it hard to describe its exact sound. Sounds like e in bee, but I feel it is not exactly the same.  
Do you know which vowel it is in IPA chart?


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## ewie

stephenlearner said:


> Do you know which vowel it is in IPA chart?


It depends which version of IPA is in use.  Some distinguish carefully between the *three* sounds of:
*bit* /bɪt/
*beat* /biːt/
*busy* /bɪzi/
while others (carelessly, for simplicity's sake) only distinguish two
*fizz */fɪz/
*fizzy* /fɪziː/

/i/ is about halfway between /ɪ/ (very short) and /iː/ (very long).


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## stephenlearner

ewie, thank you very much. I think I agree with you. I feel it is halfway between the very short one and the very long one.


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## chiukingyu

*Newer discussion added to previous thread. 
Cagey, moderator *


Hi, I am wondering if we should pronounce the letter 'y' in words like 'copy', 'happy' and 'ready' as a long e sound /i:/ or a short i sound /i/...
Seems that it is advised to be a short i from some dictionaries but I have found that it can also be pronounced as a long e in others. Are both acceptable? Please kindly share your view. Thanks.


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## london calling

The WR dictionary says it's pronounced /ˈkɒpɪ/. See this. I have no idea if there are any dialects which pronounce words such as these with a long 'i', but I have certainly not heard it (and it would sound non-standard to me).


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## chiukingyu

Thank you for your reply.

Yes... I read from dictionaries that it is a short sound but the attached one (Oxford Phonics Spelling Dictionary) seems to suggest that it has a long sound. And the teacher at my kids' school also say that it is a long sound... 

I feel rather puzzled.


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## heypresto

The book in the picture has it right. We do pronounce all those words in the way it explains.

If you type 'happy' into the search box at the top of this page, you'll be taken to our dictionary. You can hear the word pronounced in several different accents by clicking on 'listen'. 

(This will work with any word, and is a great resource.)


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## london calling

Did you listen to the pronunciation in the link I provided to our dictionary? That is definitely not a long ( \i:\ ) sound (as in see, free). And as you will see the IPA symbol is \ɪ\ (a short sound).

PS. You can download a helpful table from the British Council website, here.


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## chiukingyu

london calling said:


> Did you listen to the pronunciation in the link I provided to our dictionary? That is definitely not a long ( \i:\ ) sound (as in see, free). And as you will see the IPA symbol is \ɪ\ (a short sound).
> 
> PS. You can download a helpful table from the British Council website, here.



Yes, I know what you are talking about and that's why I feel so puzzled.


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## chiukingyu

i don't understand why the phonics dictionary i attached suggests that it has the same sound as 'bee' and 'green'


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## london calling

chiukingyu said:


> i don't understand why the phonics dictionary i attached suggests that it has the same sound as 'bee' and 'green'


Neither do I.


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## Oddmania

From the _Oxford's Learner's Dictionary_ about British English:


> The sounds represented by /iː/ and / ɪ/ must always be made different, as in _ heat _/hiːt/ compared with _hit _/ hɪt/. The symbol /i/ represents a vowel that can be sounded as either /iː/ or /ɪ/, or as a sound which is a compromise between them. In a word such as _happy _/ˈhæpi/, younger speakers use a quality more like /iː/, but short in duration.


Both the US and the UK-RP pronunciations of the word "_any_" from our dictionary have a very different sound from the short /ɪ/ vowel sound.


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## chiukingyu

Spelling the long vowel sound /e/ ee, ea, e-e, y

Thanks for sharing.
Just found this online. may have a reference.


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## london calling

Oddmania said:


> Both the US and the UK-RP pronunciations of the word "_any_" from our dictionary have a very different sound from the short /ɪ/ vowel sound.


I disagree with that. The WR Dictionary states the pronounciation of  'any' as being /ˈɛnɪ/: is the same short vowel sound as the one in for example 'copy' (/ˈkɒpɪ/, from the WR Dictionary, see above). And, I may add, the pronunciation of the letter 'i' in 'any' and 'copy' etc. is the same to my ears.

As for the OLD, I agree that younger speakers may well use different pronunciation and come out with a sound which is a compromise between  /iː/ or /ɪ/.


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## Oddmania

You're actually right: the 'UK-RP' female speaker uses the same sound in *knit* and *any*. However, I do believe the 'US' speaker uses a shorter sound in _knit_ than in _any_. It's much more obvious when comparing *pit* and *happy*. The vowel sounds sound nothing alike in the 'US' versions.


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## heypresto

Oddmania said:


> the UK-RP female speaker uses the same sound in *knit* and *any*.



Not to my ears, she doesn't. They sound quite distinct to me.


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## Oddmania

Alright, thank you Heypresto. Then I can get back to my point in #9: they're pretty different sounds. I suppose the difference varies from speaker to speaker.


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## RedwoodGrove

There is such a thing as stress in a vowel. I don't know how linguists work it out, but while "happy" and "free" rhyme more or less, the stress in "free" is greater.

By no means is the sound in knit, pit, it, etc. the same as in copy and happy.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

RedwoodGrove said:


> There is such a thing a stress in a vowel. I don't know how linguists work it out, but while "happy" and "free" rhyme more or less, the stress in "free" is greater.
> 
> By no means is the sound in knit, pit, it, etc. the same as in copy and happy.


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## heypresto

GreenWhiteBlue said:


>


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## Myridon

Phonics is taught differently in the US (or at least it was when I was in school).  We call both those sounds "long e." "Long e" is (to put it in a childish way) when the letter says its name and not anything to do with the length of pronunciation. 
From the American dictionary here: copy_(kop*′*ē)_  see _(sē)_
From the British dictionary here: copy /ˈkɒpɪ/ see /siː/
The American dictionary uses the same symbol just as your book uses /ee/.


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## Kirusha

J. C. Wells comments on this in his paper "Whatever happened to received pronunciation?" thus:


11.        *Tensing of final and prevocalic /ɪ/.* The final vowel in words such _happy, coffee, valley_ was traditionally identified with the /ɪ/ of _bit_. But many speakers nowadays identify it with the /iː/ of _beat_. In many recent works (e.g. Wells 1990, Roach 1991) the phonetic symbol /i/ is used, to denote this variable or intermediate quality, thus /ˈhæpi, ˈkɒfi, ˈvæli/. This notation reflects the fact that there is no actual opposition between /ɪ/ and /iː/ in these weak syllables (_happy_ does not become a different word by switching from one vowel to the other); what has happened is a change in the preferred phonetic quality of the weak vowel. If our phonological theory is sufficiently sophisticated to recognize a distinction between a strong vowel system (used typically but not exclusively in stressed syllables) and a weak vowel system (used only in unstressed syllables), then we can place /i/ in the weak system. It is used not only word-finally, but also before a vowel as in _happier_ /ˈhæpiə/, _various_ /ˈveəriəs/, _radiate_ /ˈreɪdieɪt/.


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## london calling

Thanks Kirusha. That explains my pronunciation (/ɪ/), which is also the pronunciation in the WR Dictionary link,  and the pronunciation Oddmania quoted from the OLD ( /iː/).


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## RedwoodGrove

Kirusha said:


> The final vowel in words such _happy, coffee, valley_ was traditionally identified with the /ɪ/ of _bit_.


Good find, Kirusha. I have to admit this mystifies me somewhat. I know there is a style or mannerism in which the final -ee sound is really downplayed, but to characterize it as the sound of the "i" in "bit" is beyond the pale.


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## JulianStuart

RedwoodGrove said:


> Good find, Kirusha. I have to admit this mystifies me somewhat. I know there is a style or mannerism in which the final -ee sound is really downplayed, but to characterize it as the sound of the "i" in "bit" is beyond the pale.


That is what RP in BE used to sound like - I'd call it clipped.  It seems to have faded to the simpler i (between i: and ɪ), even in the speech of Her Majesty The Queen


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## london calling

RedwoodGrove said:


> Good find, Kirusha. I have to admit this mystifies me somewhat. I know there is a style or mannerism in which the final -ee sound is really downplayed, but to characterize it as the sound of the "i" in "bit" is beyond the pale.


It isn't beyond the pale to me, because that's exactly how I say it, so please don't generalise.


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## RedwoodGrove

OK, then.


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## Murphy Wu

Myridon said:


> Phonics is taught differently in the US (or at least it was when I was in school).  We call both those sounds "long e." "Long e" is (to put it in a childish way) when the letter says its name and not anything to do with the length of pronunciation.
> From the American dictionary here: copy_(kop*′*ē)_  see _(sē)_
> From the British dictionary here: copy /ˈkɒpɪ/ see /siː/
> The American dictionary uses the same symbol just as your book uses /ee/.





Excuse me. I just read the dictionary of Oxford, it's  /ˈkɒpi/  (UK)  /ˈkɑːpi/ (US). It's not a short i sound in ending y. May I put it this way, ending y is supposed to be a long e as in tea, however, it's in an unstressed syllable. It becomes /i/ between /i:/ and /ɪ/. What do you think?


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## ewie

Murphy Wu said:


> May I put it this way, ending y is supposed to be a long e as in tea, however, it's in an unstressed syllable. It becomes /i/ between /i:/ and /ɪ/. What do you think?


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## natkretep

Yes, the pronunciation has been changing. The Queen uses /ɪ/, but the younger royals use /i/. This website on the Queen's English includes some short discussion of the /i/ at the end of 'really':  Queen's English


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## kentix

Count me among those who never dreamed anyone would put the bit vowel on the end of a word with a y.


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## dojibear

Murphy Wu said:


> May I put it this way, ending y is supposed to be a long e as in tea, however, it's in an unstressed syllable. It becomes /i/ between /i:/ and /ɪ/.


Being unstressed does not change the vowel sound. To me /i/ and /i:/ are identical sounds. The only difference is that one is shorter.

However /ɪ/ is a totally different sound. It is as different from /i/ as /r/ is different from /k/.

Edit: 

In English, the length of a syllable does not change the word. There are no pairs of words that are identical except that the vowel sound is longer in one of the words. Syllable lengths often change based on sentence and meaning factors. So pronunciation guides may tell you how a word is commonly spoken -- but usage changes that. There are many situations where the final /i/ in "easy" will be longer than the /i/ in "beat".

That is different from Japanese, where doubling a vowel changes the word.


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## Murphy Wu

Thanks a lot.


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## Hinata Sama

dojibear said:


> Being unstressed does not change the vowel sound. To me /i/ and /i:/ are identical sounds. The only difference is that one is shorter.
> 
> However /ɪ/ is a totally different sound. It is as different from /i/ as /r/ is different from /k/.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> In English, the length of a syllable does not change the word. There are no pairs of words that are identical except that the vowel sound is longer in one of the words. Syllable lengths often change based on sentence and meaning factors. So pronunciation guides may tell you how a word is commonly spoken -- but usage changes that. There are many situations where the final /i/ in "easy" will be longer than the /i/ in "beat".
> 
> That is different from Japanese, where doubling a vowel changes the word.


I beg to differ. beat is pronounced as bee plus the t consonant. if the final  /i/ in easy is just as long as /i/ in beat, it would be E zee. Does anyone really pronounce easy like that in some cases?


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## dojibear

Different ideas are welcome. That's how I learn things.



Hinata Sama said:


> beat is pronounced as bee plus the t consonant.


That part is incorrect. A final unvoiced consonant (T, K, P) shortens (in time duration) the vowel sound before it. In many words, the listener can't hear the final unvoiced consonant, so this shortening is the only way that AE speakers distinguish word pairs like "fall/fault", "hall/halt", "can/can't" and so on. It is a well-known feature of English.

So the vowel in "beat" is briefer than the vowel in "bean" and "bee". I can hear the difference in these audioclips:

beat - WordReference.com Dictionary of English
bean - WordReference.com Dictionary of English
bee - WordReference.com Dictionary of English



Hinata Sama said:


> if the final /i/ in easy is just as long as /i/ in beat, it would be E zee. Does anyone really pronounce easy like that in some cases?



In the word "easy", the final /i/ seems shorter than the first /i/. I agree -- it would sound odd to make it longer.

easy - WordReference.com Dictionary of English
easier - WordReference.com Dictionary of English

I didn't notice this difference in vowel duration, but I hear it once you point it out.


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## Hinata Sama

dojibear said:


> That part is incorrect. A final unvoiced consonant (T, K, P) shortens (in time duration) the vowel sound before it. In many words, the listener can't hear the final unvoiced consonant, so this shortening is the only way that AE speakers distinguish word pairs like "fall/fault", "hall/halt", "can/can't" and so on. It is a well-known feature of English.
> 
> So the vowel in "beat" is briefer than the vowel in "bean" and "bee". I can hear the difference in these audioclips:


Consonant T, K, P at the end of a word can indeed make the vowels shorter but not very obvious in the case of beat, personally i think.

It is very noticeable in words like cud compared to cup and cut or hit compared to hid.


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## Keith Bradford

I think this discussion is missing two points:

Personal and regional differences.  Within Britain we might well hear _*copy*_ pronounced as /'kɒpəj/ in the West Midlands, /'kɔpe/ in Yorkshire or /'kɔ: pɪ/ in southern Scotland.  All of them are valid.  If there were a standard pronunciation it would probably be something like /'kopi/. But there isn't.
Understandibility.  There are no other words that I can think of that might possibly be confused with these ending in -y, so whichever variant an English or foreign learner ends up with, they will be understood.  This is very different fron the internal  'long e' sound, as_ ship/sheep, hit/heat, bit/beet, shit/sheet,_ etc. are very (and at times embarrassingly) distinct.


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## dojibear

Thank you, Keith. I agree. To apply point 2 to my listening: I don't *notice *whether the /i/ sound in "final -y" is short or long, because it doesn't change the meaning. I may hear different sounds, but I don't notice the difference. If I understand the sentence, I don't notice the sounds.

The difference (in duration) between the /i/ sound in "be too" and "beat two" probably matters in sentences. Are some people saying "beat" with a longer /i/ sound? Maybe they do, and I just don't notice.

I'm sure that Ms. Hinata notices things that I don't notice.


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