# BCS: Kao



## Tassos

As you know kao is most of the times followed by the nominative. Indeed we have expressions like *hladan kao led*, *žut kao limun*, *tvrd kao kamen*, *kao papir* etc.
Still it is not ALWAYS the case. 

For example in hjp together with the previous phrases I also found

*formalnu usporedbu u zn. velike ili neograničene količine [ (ima) kao pljeve; kao blata; kao škalje]*

that i don't quite understand (like mud ???), but in which the interesting thing is that kao is followed by the genitive.

Then in Serbian Wikipedia i found this phrase

*Mnogi ljudi koji su sarađivali sa Džonijem, uglavnom ga opisuju kao  hirovitog, svojeglavog, tvrdoglavog, tiranina, svađalicu i egomanijaka.*

in which kao is followed by the accusative (or is it the genitive??).

Can someone explain to me in which cases kao is NOT followed by the nominative?

Thanx (or hvala puno unapr(ij)ed i tako dalje ... )


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## Brainiac

1. hladan kao led, žut kao limun, tvrd kao kamen, kao papir....

hladan kao led = hladan je kao [što je] led hladan 
Kao što je led. Led (reč iza kao) je subjekat, pa je reč u nomimativu.

Moje srce (nominativ) je kao [što je] kamen (nominativ).
Imam hladno srce (akuzativ) kao [što je] kamen (nominativ).
On je hladnog srca (genitiv) kao [što je] kamen (nominativ).

2. Srce mu je kao od kamena (genitiv)

Biće (koga, čega?) para kao (koga, čega?) blata. (genitiv)
Biće [od] para kao [od] blata. (Ne sve pare, ne svo blato, već deo toga)
Biće love (para) kao pleve (pljeve) (genitiv) -> mislim da se ovo svodi na onu staru raspravu akuzativ protiv genitiva, ako pamtim dobro, oba mogu.

3. Mnogi ljudi koji su sarađivali sa Džonijem, uglavnom ga opisuju kao (kao kakvog? = kao šta?, akuzativ)   hirovitog, svojeglavog, tvrdoglavog, tiranina, svađalicu i egomanijaka.

(Nisam ekspert, ali nadam se da vidiš razlike u primerima sa kao, jer po smislu, kontekstu određuješ koji padež ide sa _kao_.)


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## Sobakus

Tassos said:


> *formalnu usporedbu u zn. velike ili neograničene količine [ (ima) kao pljeve; kao blata; kao škalje]*


Well, quantity requires the Genetive doesn't it? _Mnogo, malo para_, and the attribute takes the same case. If it were Nominative (_pare kao blato_), that would probably mean _money that is like dirt_.



> *Mnogi ljudi koji su sarađivali sa Džonijem, uglavnom ga opisuju kao  hirovitog, svojeglavog, tvrdoglavog, tiranina, svađalicu i egomanijaka.*



  Again, the attribute takes the same case, the Accusative here. _Ga kao hirovitog_.


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## Brainiac

(imati nešto) kao blata/(kao što (se) ima) blata - (to have sth) in an immense amount, a lot of, lots of...


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## Anicetus

To conclude -- _kao_ is a conjunction in its basic sense, not a preposition. As Brainiac demonstrated very well, it introduces a modal subordinate clause, together with _što_, which equates its content with something from the main clause. When the verb of the subordinate clause coincides with the verb in the main clause, _što_ and the predicate are always almost dropped because it's understood from the context. I guess they're sometimes dropped even when _biti_ is the verb in the subordinate clause, but not in the main one, like in Sobakus' example _imati para kao blato_ -- _to have money which is like mud_, although this sounds odd to me. However, it's always theoretically possible to replace the shortened version with a whole clause. Of course, there are cases when the clause may not be shortened too. It's rather similar to English _like_ or _as_, actually.

There's also _kao da_, which expresses an "unreal" comparison, like English _as if_.
_Moje je srce hladno kao da je od kamena._ (_My heart is cold as if it were made of stone_)
_Rastrošan si s novcem kao da je blato._ (_You're wasteful with money as if it were dirt._)


Anyway, if you're interested, there are alternatives to many expressions with _kao_, although they're used less than _kao_, especially in casual language.
For comparing two nominal words there's the preposition _poput_ (+ genitive); _hladan poput leda, tvrd poput kamena, imam srce hladno poput kamena_...
When _kao + shortened clause_ is an argument of a verb, the phrase may often be replaced with the instrumental case: _opisuju ga hirovitim, svojeglavim, tvrdoglavim, tiraninom, svađalicom i egomanijakom_.
This may sound slightly archaic, however.




Brainiac said:


> Biće love (para) kao pleve (pljeve) (genitiv) -> mislim da se ovo svodi na onu staru raspravu akuzativ protiv genitiva, ako pamtim dobro, oba mogu.



Baš i ne mogu oba. Kao što si i sama objasnila, ovo je tzv. dijelni ili partitivni genitiv. Kad je u službi izravnog objekta, može se zamijeniti akuzativom, ali onda više ne znači dio, nego cjelinu. Međutim, ovaj izraz (_ima_ u prezentu, _biti_ u svim drugim oblicima), barem u mom uhu, uvijek zahtijeva genitiv. Gramatike uglavnom spominju da je akuzativom posve zamjenjiv tzv. slavenski genitiv (genitiv koji dolazi kao izravni objekt samo zato što je predikat zanijekan), koji priznaju kao ispravan iako je često poprilično arhaičan u današnjem jeziku (npr. _ne vidim ovdje nikakva stola_).


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## Brainiac

Anicetus said:


> _Rastrošan si s novcem kao da je blato._ (_You're wasteful with money as if it were dirt._) *You spend money like water.
> *
> When _kao + shortened clause_ is an argument of a verb, the phrase may often be replaced with the instrumental case: _opisuju ga hirovitim, svojeglavim, tvrdoglavim, tiraninom, svađalicom i egomanijakom_.
> This may sound slightly archaic, however.



Never heard of the instrumental case in this context. But I did _opisuju ga kao hirovita i brza čoveka _or _bio je nepredvidiva duha_... which sounds very archaic. (I couldn't find google results for this example, but I'm sure I have read it many times in some books)



Anicetus said:


> Baš i ne mogu oba. Kao što si i sama objasnila, ovo je tzv. dijelni ili partitivni genitiv. Kad je u službi izravnog objekta, može se zamijeniti akuzativom, ali onda više ne znači dio, nego cjelinu. Međutim, ovaj izraz (_ima_ u prezentu, _biti_ u svim drugim vremenima), barem u mom uhu, uvijek zahtijeva genitiv. Gramatike uglavnom spominju da je akuzativom posve zamjenjiv tzv. slavenski genitiv (genitiv koji dolazi kao izravni objekt samo zato što je predikat zanijekan), koji priznaju kao ispravan iako je često poprilično arhaičan u današnjem jeziku (npr. _ne vidim ovdje nikakva stola_).



Slažem se sa tobom, ali ja sam pisala u postu o jednoj temi gde se diskutovalo kada i kako uzeti genitiv a kada akuzativ. Ja tada nisam bila član i nisam učestvovala u diskusiji. Stariji članovi će to reći bolje od mene šta su zaključili.

Moje uvo je čulo i akuzativ i genitiv u mnogim primerima, a misli se na isto, u globalu.
Nemam vremena da slušam tvoje lekcije.
Nemam vreme da slušam tvoje lekcije. (Ovo je možda više u razgovoru, ali se često javlja)

Nemam više one knjige koje sam voleo.
Nemam više onih knjiga koje sam voleo.


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## Anicetus

Brainiac said:


> Never heard of the instrumental case in this context. But I did _opisuju ga kao hirovita i brza čoveka _or _bio je nepredvidiva duha_... which sounds very archaic. (I couldn't find google results for this example, but I'm sure I have read it many times in some books)



Instrumental isn't very frequent in this context, I certainly agree, but I've managed to find few Google results.

The other example uses undefinite forms of adjectives, which is an another topic. Although this has become rare in common speech, I think it's still the only "legit" option for these sentences in strict standard.




> Slažem se sa tobom, ali ja sam pisala u postu o jednoj temi gde se diskutovalo kada i kako uzeti genitiv a kada akuzativ. Ja tada nisam bila član i nisam učestvovala u diskusiji. Stariji članovi će to reći bolje od mene šta su zaključili.
> 
> Moje uvo je čulo i akuzativ i genitiv u mnogim primerima, a misli se na isto, u globalu.
> Nemam vremena da slušam tvoje lekcije.
> Nemam vreme da slušam tvoje lekcije. (Ovo je možda više u razgovoru, ali se često javlja)
> 
> Nemam više one knjige koje sam voleo.
> Nemam više onih knjiga koje sam voleo.



Ne sjećam se da sam ikad čuo _nemam vr(ij)eme_, meni _nemam vremena_ zvuči gotovo kao ustaljen izraz. No nisam zapravo ni mislio na to, nego na bezlično _ima/nema_ u smislu _(ne) postoji/postoje_, kao npr. engleski _there is(n't)/are(n't)_. 
_Nemam više one knjige koje sam voleo. / Nemam više onih knjiga koje sam voleo._ -- _I don't have those books I liked any more._
_Nema više onih knjiga koje sam volio._ -- _Those books I liked are no more. / Those books I liked are no longer here._


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## Sobakus

I think _nemati_ is a different matter, it can agree with Gen. because of the negation, which triggers the Genetive most of the time in Russian for example: _видеть стол_ but _не видеть стола._ It's not a Partitive there, because for some masculine nouns like суп or чай the Genitive and the Partitive differ.


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## Brainiac

Oh, but your ГУГЛ D) results are for "kakvim opisuje". (And only 5 results!!!!!)
*ovakav kakvim* opisuje ove prve... That's different from _kao + shortened clause or kao _

_opisuju ga hirovitim... = opisuju ga (kao) hirovitim _-> I haven't heard for this construction, and it doesn't sound natural to me.

_*Opisuje se*_ takvim = *Opisuje se* *kao* takav. -> I've heard this, but that's *without kao *and really there is the instrumental case. 
But, we are talking about constructions with _kao_, right. 
*
Opisuju* ga *kao* hirovit*og *(pridev i zamenica u akuzativu), but* 

smatraju *ga* hirovitim *(pridev u instrumentalu, zamenica u akuzativu) or 
*smatraju *ga* čudakom *(imenica u instrumentalu, zamenica u akuzativu)
*smatraju* ga *za čudaka* (imenica i zamenica u akuzativu) = *smatraju/gledaju *ga *kao* *čudaka
*Because _Ga_ *is* _čudak _(equivalent), _ga, njega _*=*_ čudaka_, padež mora biti isti

[ima ga *kao* blata = ima ga *koliko ima* blata]

Imam vremena : 14.600.000 results
Imam vreme :  16.300.000 results (More results ?? !!!!!!)

Nemam vremena : 13.700.000  r. (More results)
Nemam vreme : 11.800.000 r.

(If this means something....)


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## Tassos

Let's see what we have here (I'll use Brainiac's numbering)

3. I think I understand it OK, (To mislim da sasvim razumijem, zar ne?)

Kao connects *ga* with some *adjectives* which have to be in the accusative too.

2. Here it's more or less the same (Ovdje je više-manje isto)

kao connects genitive with genitive

Here I just have to clear the meaning

Ima para kao blata (He has money like he has mud i.e. he has a lot of money)
Ima pare kao blato (He has money which is like mud, i.e. his money looks like mud - doesn't make sense)

1. Here



Brainiac said:


> Imam hladno srce (akuzativ) kao [što je] kamen (nominativ).
> On je hladnog srca (genitiv) kao [što je] kamen (nominativ).



can you explain again why kamen is in the nominative (Možete li ponovo objasniti zašto kamen je u nominativ ?)
Is it because the implied verb is biti ?

(And Brainiac, molim te, ispravi moje greške ) 

on a side note Gugl Transleit  is really weird in S it gives me    "u nominativ"   and  "greške"  in C "u nominativu" and "pogreške" and translates "I believe I understand completely" as "vjerujem da razumijem u potpunosti" (I know what Brainiac will say but I use it to check the padeži)


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## Brainiac

Ok, we'll use numbering again.

1. Ne persiraj mi (tj. ovo si prevodio preko ГУГЛ-a, Google je vrlo kulturan, uvek persira )
2. Ovo Брејнијак je bila glupa šala, ja sam Ivana

3. 





> To mislim da sasvim razumijem, zar ne?



Redosled radije ide ovako:
Mislim da to sasvim/potpuno razumem. 

4. više manje, mislim da je bez crtice između

5. 





> Ima para kao blata (He has money like he has mud... or: like there is mud - kao što ima blata (na ovom svetu) i.e. he has a lot of money)



(Ovo je vrlo kolokvijalan idiom.)



> Ima pare kao blato (He has money which is like mud, i.e. his money looks like mud - doesn't make sense)


 
Yes, it doesn't make sense at all, although is theoretically possible. 
It was mentioned just to show you the difference between 
*kao blata* = koliko puno ima blata, toliko puno ima novca (...as much as...) and 
*kao blato=poput blata*=kao što je blato (like mud)

6. 





> Možete li ponovo objasniti zašto kamen je -> *je kamen *u nominativ*u*?


When forming a question, *je *goes first, like am/are/is/do/does...etc. in English.
Zašto je... Kako je... Da li je..... 

7. Here's how it goes:
a. Kamen je hladan.
b. Moje srce je hladno.
c. Moje srce je hladno kao što je kamen hladan.
d. Moje srce je hladno kao kamen.

The last one - both srce and kamen are in the nominative case, they are equivalised and take the same case. The nominative case because both serve like subjects. That's why I put kao što je kamen -> kamen je... (kamen - subjekat, vršilac radnje) to see easier what kao does in the sentence.

8.


> on a side note Gugl Transleit *Translejt* *(hahha.. this was good ****)*is really weirdin S it gives me "u nominativ*u*" and "greške" in C "u nominativu" and "pogreške" and translates "I believe I understand completely" as "vjerujem da razumijem u potpunosti" (I know what Brainiac will say but I use it to check the padeži)




9. Da li je sada jasnije? Pucaj pitanja slobodno!


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## Tassos

*3.* I did that on purpose (although you can say it's Bosnian ). Anyway, I'm learning *BCS* so I can do anything I want. 
*3 and 6.* Word order is the most difficult thing for me (meni je vrlo teško)
*8.* I thought *u potpunosti* was a little too formal 
*9.* Yes, thanx.


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## Brainiac

8. Well, we are here to pretend like we are important, so we may speak "formal" language. 
Nije ništa teško sve dokli imaš nas.


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## Anicetus

Sobakus said:


> I think _nemati_ is a different matter, it can agree with Gen. because of the negation, which triggers the Genetive most of the time in Russian for example: _видеть стол_ but _не видеть стола._ It's not a Partitive there, because for some masculine nouns like суп or чай the Genitive and the Partitive differ.



Yes, I said there was also the so-called Slavic genitive, which is rather archaic in our contemporary language. _Nemati vremena_ is much more common than _ne vidjeti stola_, so I see no reason why the first syntagm can't be considered an example of the partitive genitive. 




Brainiac said:


> Oh, but your ГУГЛ D) results are for "kakvim opisuje". (And only 5 results!!!!!)
> *ovakav kakvim* opisuje ove prve... That's different from _kao + shortened clause or kao _



Well, okay, _kakvim ga opisuje_ gives more results. The construction is used more when there's just _kakav_, but it's still the same logic.



> _opisuju ga hirovitim... = opisuju ga (kao) hirovitim _-> I haven't heard for this construction, and it doesn't sound natural to me.
> 
> _*Opisuje se*_ takvim = *Opisuje se* *kao* takav. -> I've heard this, but that's *without kao *and really there is the instrumental case.
> But, we are talking about constructions with _kao_, right.



I obviously didn't make myself clear.  I wanted to say _kao_ might be omitted and the verb might take argument in instrumental instead of the expression with _kao_. Note that I also included an example for this in my post above: _opisuju ga hirovitim ..._



> Imam vremena : 14.600.000 results
> Imam vreme :  16.300.000 results (More results ?? !!!!!!)
> 
> Nemam vremena : 13.700.000  r. (More results)
> Nemam vreme : 11.800.000 r.
> 
> (If this means something....)



Please don't get me wrong, I had absolutely no intention to imply you were lying, my point was just that it apparently wasn't used in my area. 
However, you didn't do the research right. Google gave you more results for _imam vreme_ because it searched for any documents containing those two words. To search only for a certain phrase, you have to put it in " ". 
So, "imam vreme" yields about 48.800 results, but many of those results actually aren't in Serbian, but Macedonian. If we limit our search to site:rs, the number drops to 421. Searching for imam vrijeme gets about 17.800 results, but many of those seem to be in a completely different context -- _imam vrijeme na svojoj strani_, for example, or _... imam. Vrijeme ..._
"imam vremena", on the other hand, gets 362.000 results.
"nemam vreme" gets 26.400 hits, along with the Macedonian ones again, while "nemam vreme" site:rs gets 704, still with Macedonian in the first two results. "nemam vrijeme" gives 1.830 hits. 
And finally, "nemam vremena" yields 1.290.000 results.


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