# un po' ruffiana a tratti, perché deve essere golosa



## Amaltamnena

Hello everyone!
I'm really having trouble with the  translation in English of the following phrase: 

*un po' ruffiana a tratti, perché deve essere golosa
*
can anyone help, please!

“_il primo pensiero è stata la materia prima e quindi i giusti fornitori. Per me quella di A.....  - _ha dichiarato lo Chef _- è una cucina in movimento, bella e buona, mai ferma, elegante, anche un po' ruffiana a tratti, perché deve essere golosa._

_
My first thought goes to the raw material and therefore the right suppliers explained, the Chef  – A. (name of the restaurant)....., for me, is a constantly moving, beautiful and scrumptious cuisine, never still or motionless, elegant, even a little__* lacchè* at times, because it must be *gourmand*_.

thank you in advance!

Amaltam


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## Paulfromitaly

You need to give us information about the context


What does "provide* some context *" mean? 
*How and in which forum to create - edit - post a thread correctly*


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## Amaltamnena

Sorry Paulfromitaly!

this is part of an interview to a Michelin starred chef, who is explaining his idea about the food offered in his restaurant.
Im having trouble with the word *ruffiana *and  *golosa *

Im translating from Italian to English.

“_il primo pensiero è stata la materia prima e quindi i giusti fornitori. Per me quella di A..... - _ha dichiarato lo Chef _- è una cucina in movimento, bella e buona, mai ferma, elegante, anche un po' ruffiana a tratti, perché deve essere golosa._
_
My attempt:
My first thought goes to the raw material and therefore the right suppliers explained, the Chef – A. (name of the restaurant)....., for me, is a constantly moving, beautiful and scrumptious cuisine, never still or motionless, elegant, even a little* lacchè* at times, because it must be *gourmand*._


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## Paulfromitaly

I think your translation is fine. 
Mind you, most of those terms are not normally used in this context so you need to be inventive.


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## Amaltamnena

Thank you Paulfromitaly1!
I have never used those terms and I wasn't sure if it was conveying the right meaning.


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## tsoapm

Hi,


Amaltamnena said:


> the right suppliers*,”* explained, the Chef*.* – *“*A. (name of the restaurant)....., for me,


We don’t break off quotations with dashes in English.





Amaltamnena said:


> beautiful and scrumptious cuisine


Beauty is usually visual in English though. Not sure what’s best here. ‘Bello’ is a bit like ‘nice’ in English, ‘buono’ too I suppose: means everything and nothing! Scrumptious is a funny register in context, especially right next to ‘beautiful’.





Amaltamnena said:


> _even a little__* lacchè* at times, because it must be *gourmand*_.


The first one I’d have to look up, personally, the second is a noun isn’t it? If so, I’d say it was ungrammatical.

I think there’s quite a lot of room for alternative word choices here, but those are some problems that I see with your current version.

*Edit:* ‘overaccommodating’ and ‘tempting’ perhaps? I’m not sure how close those are in meaning to your idea.


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## Amaltamnena

Hi Tsoapm, 

it was just meant to keep the name of the restaurant anonymous. My mistake!

do you have any suggestions regarding the terms?
thanks!
A


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## tsoapm

I’m thinking ‘indulgent’ too, but I think I’d better hold off on the suggestions until I have some feedback on whether or not I’m barking up the wrong tree.


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## Amaltamnena

Thank you Tsoapm,
 I think you nailed it! 
it certainly flows better, no?

“_il primo pensiero è stata la materia prima e quindi i giusti fornitori. Per me quella di A..... - _ha dichiarato lo Chef _- è una cucina in movimento, bella e buona, mai ferma, elegante, anche un po' *ruffiana *a tratti, perché deve essere *golosa*._

_
My first thought goes to the raw material and therefore the right suppliers explained, the Chef – A. (name of the restaurant)....., for me, is a constantly moving, beautiful and scrumptious cuisine, never still or motionless, elegant, even a little* tempting and indulgent* at times._


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## merse0

PRIMO tentativo:
_My first thought goes to the raw material and therefore the right suppliers explained, the Chef – A. (name of the restaurant)....., for me, is a constantly moving, beautiful and scrumptious cuisine, never still or motionless, elegant, even a little* lacchè* at times, because it must be *gourmand*.
_
SECONDO tentativo:
_My first thought goes to the raw material and therefore the right suppliers explained, the Chef – A. (name of the restaurant)....., for me, is a constantly moving, beautiful and scrumptious cuisine, never still or motionless, elegant, even a little* tempting and indulgent* at times.
_
Ottimi i suggerimenti di Tsoapm, ma perché non limitarsi a sostituire le parole del 1° tentativo?
_My first thought goes to the raw material and therefore the right suppliers explained, the Chef – A. (name of the restaurant)....., for me, is a constantly moving, beautiful and scrumptious cuisine, never still or motionless, elegant, even a little* indulgent *at times, because it must be *tempting*.


_


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## Pietruzzo

merse0 said:


> Ottimi i suggerimenti di Tsoapm, ma perché non limitarsi a sostituire le parole del 1° tentativo?
> _My first thought goes to the raw material and therefore the right suppliers explained, the Chef – A. (name of the restaurant)....., for me, is a constantly moving, beautiful and scrumptious cuisine, never still or motionless, elegant, even a little* indulgent *at times, because it must be *tempting*._


 D'accordo per indulgent  (forse anche pandering?)  e tempting ma il resto della frase va pure sistemato, soprattutto la punteggiatura.  Inoltre nel testo italiano non si capisce dove comincia la citazione; mica puoi spezzare il discorso con " ha dichiarato  lo chef" dopo un punto. E dopo il nome del ristorante non ci vorrà un genitivo sassone?
Insomma qualcosa come "_My first thought *went* to the raw material and therefore the right suppliers;" said the chef , " A.*'s* (name of the restaurant), for me, is a...cuisine"_


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## tsoapm

Nothing like a good review. Feeling all smug now, about _ruffiana_ in particular. 


Pietruzzo said:


> the right suppliers;" said the chef


This is what I was trying to say in #6, but perhaps my markup isn't as clear as I'd like to think.  There's a logic to using a semicolon before breaking the quote there, but that's just not how we do it: ci vuole la virgola lì.

'Pandering' sounds good, but not as an adjective.


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## london calling

_Lacchè_ means 'lackey' in English: a servant. Definitely not the right word here (apart from the fact that it's a noun). And the adjective 'ruffiano' is more about pandering to someone's wishes than being indulgent, in my opinion. A's cuisine caters to people's tastes. If it were a human being it would have a desire to please, it would flirt. And  'scrumptious' is a word I can only remember hearing  from my RP-speaking  grandma (rest her soul) for whom everything was 'super',  'jolly', 'ghastly', etc. etc.. The wrong register, quite definitely.

A very loose translation:
_
My highest priority being the use of prime ingredients I had to find the right/best suppliers.......A's cuisine evolves continuously, not only is it a feast for the eyes but  it tastes good as well, it's forever on the move,  it's elegant  and even seductive at times._


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## tsoapm

london calling said:


> more about pandering to someone's wishes than being indulgent


I’d say they overlap to a certain extent. The distinction seems to be that pandering is essentially self-interested, whereas indulgence is more an excess of generosity.


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## Pietruzzo

Non so. "Ruffiana" è anche una parola abbastanza forte. Mi fa un po' pensare a "flirt". Tipo "it's a bit of a flirt because it needs to be tempting/desirable". Esagera per piacere a tutti i costi. Sempre che si possa umanizzare la "cuisine" fino a questo punto.


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## tsoapm

So ‘flirtatious’ as an adjective. ‘Provocative’. Maybe even _un po' ruffiana - _‘a bit of a slag’_. _Abbastanza forte in un senso così?

I remember they used ‘slag’ to advertise Pot Noodle, but had to withdraw it...


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## london calling

Pietruzzo said:


> Non so. "Ruffiana" è anche una parola abbastanza forte. Mi fa un po' pensare a "flirt". Tipo "it's a bit of a flirt because it needs to be tempting/desirable". Esagera per piacere a tutti i costi. Sempre che si possa umanizzare la "cuisine" fino a questo punto.



Hai letto il mio post? Mi auto-cito:


london calling said:


> .......*A's cuisine caters to people's tastes. If it were a human being it would have a desire to please, it would flirt*........
> _
> My highest priority being the use of prime ingredients I had to find the right/best suppliers.......A's cuisine evolves continuously, not only is it a feast for the eyes but  it tastes good as well, it's forever on the move,  it's elegant  and even *seductive* at times._


Ecco perché ho suggerito 'seductive' per 'ruffiana'.


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## Tellure

T*a*ntalising? Saucy?


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## tsoapm

That’s ‘t_*a*nt_alising’ as in T_*a*nt_alus, rather than ‘t_*e*mpt_ation’.  At the risk of overthinking it, that may suggest teasing and disappointing more than pandering and indulging.

I like ‘saucy’, but I’m still not really sure what the tone should be here; it seems rather light, perhaps?


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## Tellure

tsoapm said:


> That’s ‘t_*a*nt_alising’ as in T_*a*nt_alus, rather than ‘t_*e*mpt_ation’.  At the risk of overthinking it, that may suggest teasing and disappointing more than pandering and indulging.


Grazie, tsoapm!


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## Pietruzzo

Intanto il testo originale è più articolato di quello che ci è stato presentato.  In particolare, la parte in esane non è pronunciata dallo chef :
E sembra di sentire parlare M. T. quando dice: “_Elegante, anche un po' ruffiana a tratti, perché deve essere golosa. Buona: da soggettivamente buona deve essere oggettivamente buona_”
Ovviamente sta sempre parlando della cucina del (suo) ristorante. 


london calling said:


> If it were a human being it would have a desire to please, it would flirt....._ it's elegant  and even seductive at times._


Mi sembra che "seductive" non esprima completamente la tua stessa premessa. Immagino questi piatti con delle guarnizioni appariscenti, dei profumi forti che attirano l'attenzione sfacciatamente. Inoltre anche la "giustificazione" è importante (perchè deve essere golosa).


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## johngiovanni

"Our chief consideration has been the raw ingredients, which means finding the right suppliers," said A's chef.  "Ours is a cuisine in constant evolution; nice and tasty, it never stands still.  It is elegant and at times coquettishly appealing / seductive, for it needs to tempt the appetite."


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## london calling

Pietruzzo said:


> Mi sembra che "seductive" non esprima completamente la tua stessa premessa. Immagino questi piatti con delle guarnizioni appariscenti, dei profumi forti che attirano l'attenzione sfacciatamente. Inoltre anche la "giustificazione" è importante (perchè deve essere golosa).


Ma 'flirtatious ' non ci sta proprio, per cui.... E  'saucy' sarebbe carino se non fosse per il contesto. Sembrerebbe una battuta un po' forzata.

Comunque se una cosa è seducente ti fa venire la voglia, no?


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## johngiovanni

london calling said:


> Sembrerebbe una battuta un po' forzata.


To me, _the original sentence_ "sembrerebbe una battuta un po' forzata".  However, it_ is_ apparently what the chef said, and in post 4 Paul gave us licence to be "inventive".

To begin with, what is the _tense_ of the first part? -  "“_il primo pensiero è stata ...".  _Perhaps we need at least to get that right_._
I said_ "_Our chief consideration _has been...."  _Is that wrong?  It seems to me that the present tense versions are not correct.

Then for "prima materia", would it be "raw materials" or "raw ingredients", or something else?  We are talking food here.  I'd go for "ingredients" at the moment, but would not quibble with "materials".  In the context, "raw materials"are ingredients, aren't they?

Then we have Pietruzzo's so _very_ interesting: "Non so. 'Ruffiana' è anche una parola abbastanza forte. Mi fa un po' pensare a 'flirt'. Tipo 'it's a bit of a flirt because it needs to be tempting/desirable'. Esagera per piacere a tutti i costi. Sempre che si possa *umanizzare* la 'cuisine' fino a questo punto." (My bold)

And I start thinking about the _feminine_ 'cucina', which has no real equivalent in English - though we use "cuisine" from the French - , and perhaps the relative ease with which it becomes _humanis(z)ed - _perhaps_ feminis(z)ed_ in Italian.

Then we have the nuances of "ruffiana" and "golosa", which seem to stretch everyone, Italian and English natives alike.

Then there is the question of punctuation in the two languages.

There is _so, so much_ going on here.

This thread is worth pursuing. In the end, though, I suppose we could do with a sentence or sentences which sound OK in English



_
_


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## london calling

I'll answer you point by point, John.

1. I think I was inventive. Too inventive probably, but even to me 'saucy' sounds like a mickey-take. 
2. I used the past tense because the way I worded it demanded it: your present perfect sounds fine to me.
3. Materia prima: I said 'prime ingredients' because I don't associate  raw materials with food.
4. Pietruzzo's 'flirt' and the way he humanises and 'feminises'. I said that before he did (my post 13, I quote myself again: .......*A's cuisine caters to people's tastes. If it were a human being it would have a desire to please, it would flirt*........), so I obviously agree with that concept. What I don't agree with is the use of the word itself. You can't however refer to  cuisine as 'a bit of a flirt,' in my opinion.  What I said was also based on the concept of a 'femmina ruffiana', a coquette who is well-versed in the art of seduction.
5. I didn't bother to translate 'golosa' but you're right, it's not easy. Even after years of on-and-off translation work, which involves a great deal of lateral thinking/thinking out of the box (there's a reason why translators are good at cryptic crosswords), there will always be words which are difficult to render because they are so nuanced or because they are used in a way in which they would not normally be used: poetic licence, why not? 'Mouth-watering' as a concept (not as a translation) comes to mind:  it makes you want to eat it, it seduces you. Humanise that if you will (I'll leave it to your imagination)!
6. The punctuation. I read the interview here ( Pietruzzo posted the same link above). I quote it as it is written:

Inizia mantenendo il vecchio menu e poi, pian piano aggiunge la sua impronta: “_il primo pensiero è stata la materia prima. Quel che dice Giulio è un comandamento: al mare si pesca e non si fa la spesa, siamo il megafono di quel che fanno i produttori_”. Inizia quindi dal lavoro sui fornitori. “_Poi sono andato a sviluppare il mio concetto: per me quella di Acquolina è una cucina in movimento, bella e buona, mai ferma_”. E sembra di sentire parlare Massimo Troiani quando dice: “_Elegante, anche un po' ruffiana a tratti, perché deve essere golosa. Buona: da soggettivamente buona deve essere oggettivamente buona_”. 

The OP must have read a different version of the interview.  The punctuation here works fine in both languages, I would say.

7. I agree that we need something that works in English. Too literal a translation will make it appear precisely that: a translation. We have to translate the concepts here and get the tone and register right. 

I'll have to run this piece of culinary purple prose past my bilingual son (who also happens to be a chef, in London). Mind you, I think it will most likely make his hair stand on end.


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## johngiovanni

Thank you, LC.  That is a comprehensive and very interesting response.  I understand and agree with so much you have said.  And it really helps with my Italian.


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## Tellure

Per quanto riguarda "golosa", se può aiutare, ecco una definizione:
*
2.* estens. Di cibo, che stuzzica la gola (meno com., in questo senso, di _gustoso_, _ghiotto_, _appetitoso_): _piatti g_.; _un g_. _manicaretto_.
goloso in Vocabolario - Treccani

Quanto a "ruffiana", per me il senso è "sfacciata", "audace", "invitante", ecc., ma l'uso del termine, come già detto, è veramente bizzarro in un simile contesto.


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## london calling

Grazie Tellure. 

Re. _golosa_. Yes, I understand the meaning,  the problem is rendering it in English without coming up with something that sounds ridiculous. As I said: _'Mouth-watering' as a concept (not as a translation) comes to mind: it makes you want to eat it, it seduces you_. 

Re. _ruffiana_. Yes, that's how I understood it too, hence what I said above. It's bizarre in English too: _seductive_ is a compromise.

PS. You're welcome, John.


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## Tellure

london calling said:


> Grazie Tellure.
> 
> Re. _golosa_. Yes, I understand the meaning,  the problem is rendering it in English without coming up with something that sounds ridiculous. As I said: _'Mouth-watering' as a concept (not as a translation) comes to mind: it makes you want to eat it, it seduces you_.
> *"Appetising" come suona?*
> 
> Re. _ruffiana_. Yes, that's how I understood it too, hence what I said above. It's bizarre in English too: _seductive_ is a compromise.
> *"Seductive" mi sembra un po' soft, mentre "ruffiana" presuppone un po' più di vivacità e intraprendenza, per così dire... Ma se non c'è un esatto equivalente... E "sassy"? Troppo bizzarro per il contesto o completamente fuori luogo? *


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## london calling

_Appetising_ is a bit lame, to be honest. 
The problem with 'sassy' is that apart from _bold/cheeky_ it means _energetic/lively_. I think we Brits are more likely to understand it as meaning _energetic/lively_. Plus I can't bring myself to call food 'sassy'.


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## Tellure

london calling said:


> _Appetising_ is a bit lame, to be honest.
> The problem with 'sassy' is that apart from _bold/cheeky_ it means _energetic/lively_. I think we Brits are more likely to understand it as meaning _energetic/lively_. Plus I can't bring myself to call food 'sassy'.


Capisco. 

Beh, io non definirei mai una cucina "ruffiana", se è per questo.


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## london calling

Tellure said:


> Capisco.
> 
> Beh, io non definirei mai una cucina "ruffiana", se è per questo.


Appunto. Il problema è prima con l'italiano e poi con l'inglese....


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## Tellure

london calling said:


> Appunto. Il problema è prima con l'italiano e poi con l'inglese....


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## barking fellows

In Italian, it's quite normal to say that a wine is _ruffiano_, which is the opposite of saying it is _sincero_.
_Un vino sincero_ has a definite taste, smells like wine only, and you can tell what its percentage of alcohol by volume is from the first sip.
_Un vino ruffiano_ has a symphony of tastes and smells and makes you believe it's not as strong as it actually is.

I never heard the word _ruffiana_ used for cuisine, but I imagine it means it tastes lighter than it is.
Very hard to translate though.
*Adulating?*


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## chipulukusu

Picking from previous suggestions, in this context I understand _ruffiana_ like "_captivating by means of overindulgence"_ and in this sense I think the word suits what the Chef was probably meaning.


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## london calling

chipulukusu said:


> Picking from previous suggestions, in this context I understand _ruffiana_ like "_captivating by means of overindulgence"_ and in this sense I think the word suits what the Chef was probably meaning.


Which word? And 'captivating by means of overindulgence' means nothing in English. What are you trying to say?


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## chipulukusu

london calling said:


> Which word? And 'captivating by means of overindulgence' means nothing in English. What are you trying to say?


OK,  I'll try to explain a little better what I had in mind
By captivating I mean apt to win other people's favour and attention.
Overindulgence, I didn't use it in the same sense as in "his overindulgence with alcohol is killing him". I thought that overindulgence could also be understood as conceding to much to other people's tastes or preferences. For example I suppose most people have a sweet tooth, so my cuisine will have more sweet flavours that I had done otherwise. I suspect I screwed up on this
And most of all...
penso che avrei fatto meglio a cercare di spiegartelo in italiano


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## underhouse

Personalmente non trovo disorientante l'uso dell'aggettivo "ruffiano" riferito a "cucina", come ha detto barking fellows "ruffiano" si usa spesso riferito al vino e basta cercare su google "piatti ruffiani" per rendersi conto che ormai questo aggettivo è entrato anche nel vocabolario della ristorazione.
Quello che secondo me non è stato evidenziato a sufficienza è che "ruffiano" non ha un valore positivo, piuttosto ha una sfumatura negativa, presuppone sì uno sforzo per fare qualcosa che vada incontro al cliente, ma questo sforzo non è onesto e genuino, piuttosto furbo e studiato a tavolino.
Insomma, uno chef non sarebbe contento di sentirsi dire che i suoi piatti sono ruffiani....


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## underhouse

Il suggerimento di Tsoapm (#19), teasing, mi sembra quello che si avvicina di più a ruffiano, se non sbaglio "tease"  in italiano si traduce anche con specchietto delle allodole...


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## tsoapm

It wasn’t really a suggestion: I was trying to describe the nuances of the word ‘tantalising’, and attempting – apparently unsuccessfully! – to say that I thought it might not be the best fit.

_Specchietto delle allodole_ is an expression I only came across recently, but as far as I can see, ‘tease’ is a bit different. I dare say it depends on context; in this case I have my doubts.


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## Pietruzzo

underhouse said:


> Insomma, uno chef non sarebbe contento di sentirsi dire che i suoi piatti sono ruffiani....


 È curioso quello che dici considerando che la persona citata sta parlando del proprio ristorante. Sta semplicemente dicendo che per prendere la gente "per la gola" bisogna anche saper usare certi "trucchi". In ogni caso mi sembrava che ormai il senso di questa frase fosse stato chiarito a sufficienza. Nel post 12 per esempio:


london calling said:


> And the adjective 'ruffiano' is more about pandering to someone's wishes than being indulgent, in my opinion. A's cuisine caters to people's tastes. If it were a human being it would have a desire to please, it would flirt.


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## underhouse

Pietruzzo said:


> È curioso quello che dici considerando che la persona citata sta parlando del proprio ristorante.



Infatti secondo me è qualcosa che assomiglia ad un'ammissione di colpa... Per stemperare la connotazione negativa di "ruffiana" dice anche "a tratti" ("ruffiana a tratti", come dire "solo un po' se no 'fa troppo brutto'").



Pietruzzo said:


> In ogni caso mi sembrava che ormai il senso di questa frase fosse stato chiarito a sufficienza. Nel post 12 per esempio:



Tu sei molto intelligente ed hai capito, io non ho colto se l'aggettivo suggerito da london, "pandering", abbia la stessa accezione negativa che ha "ruffiano".
Assecondare i gusti dei clienti non è necessariamente negativo, anzi. Lo diventa quando lo si fa furbescamente...


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## Anja.Ann

Ciao a tutti  

Ammetto che non ho letto proprio tutta tutta la discussione , ma se la cucina "_è  bella e buona, elegante, anche un po' ruffiana a tratti, perché deve essere golosa" _(cioè ingolosire)_, _forse "ruffiana" potrebbe riferirsi all'aspetto ... piatti presentati in modo tale da "ingolosire", o meglio "attrarre, tentare furbescamente tutti"? Un po' come quando a me capita di vedere una bella torta al cioccolato e  ... I'm tempted just looking at it. "Visually endearing" potrebbe andare bene?


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## london calling

tsoapm said:


> _Specchietto delle allodole_ is an expression I only came across recently, but as far as I can see, ‘tease’ is a bit different. I dare say it depends on context; in this case I have my doubts.


So have I. _Tease_-specchietto per le allodole? That translates to 'smoke and mirrors'...


Anja.Ann said:


> Ciao a tutti
> 
> ... I'm tempted just looking at it. "Visually endearing" potrebbe andare bene?


E' quello che intendevo dire con 'seductive': ti tenta. Ma 'visually endearing' ...sorry.


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## Anja.Ann

london calling said:


> E' quello che intendevo dire con 'seductive': ti tenta. Ma 'visually endearing' ...sorry.



 Ciao, LC! Grazie per la risposta


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