# EN: who / whom - when used with a preposition



## Junky_Hero

Hello everyone, i have a doubt about what word to use in this sentence:
Whom i'm talking about or Who i'm talking about
Here it's an object and not a subject so we should use whom , but usually people use who.
Is that a mistake ?

*Moderator note:* Multiple threads have been merged to create this one.


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## Tim~!

Not particularly a mistake.

Traditionally the object form is indeed _whom_.  Over the passage of recent time, the use of _whom_ has become less and less common, and most people tend to use _who_.

The sole exception that I can think of is after a preposition.  Because putting a preposition at the beginning of the clause is a higher style of English, there's more chance of that person using _whom_ too.

_"About who are you talking?"_ sounds terrible to us.

_"About whom are you talking?" _sounds nice and is considered by many to be "correct" English.

Most people would say "_Who are you talking about?_", which sounds perfectly natural and is fine, although some people would complain (incorrectly) that one can't use prepositions at the end of a sentence.  This is by far the most common form.

The other one is _"Whom are you talking about?"  _This is fine, though rare.  It uses _whom _appropriately, although most people would choose _who_, since _whom _is becoming a rarely used form now.


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## mad nad

Could anyone tell me which is correct, please?
I wonder *who* he takes after.
or
I wonder *whom* he takes after.

Thanks!


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## passwords

"I wonder who he takes after" is the correct one .


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## Momerath

I personally would say "I wonder who he takes after" (Brit). But I suspect that some people, especially Americans, would say "I wonder whom he takes after". Strictly speaking, "whom" is governed by the preposition "after".


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## paulvial

Bonjour 

I have always had difficulties with the use of whom and who , 
in this example , I have opted for the first one , but I have some doubts 

* As-tu découvert avec qui Brigitte sort ?   
*
Have you found out _*with **whom *_Brigitte is going out ?

Have you found out _*who*_ Brigitte is going out _*with  ?

*Any help appreciated 
thanks 
_


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## Keith Bradford

Nobody except an eccentric Oxford professor of ancient languages would say _Have you found out with whom Brigitte is going out_ ?

Stick to the other one: _*Have you found out who Brigitte is going out with?  *_


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## paulvial

Thanks Keith 
Yes indeed the second one comes out more easily , but I have often made the effort of changing it because I thought it was the "proper way " (at least the way I was taught )


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## timpeac

Yes, as Paul says people (in my experience) would never use this supposedly "proper" construction in speech.

I'd also add that it's best to avoid a half-way house by having "whom" but also putting the preposition at the end, as in

_Do you know whom Brigitte is going out with?_

In other words, if you decide to use "whom" don't put the preposition at the end, and similarly if you don't put the preposition at the end then also use "whom" rather than "who"!


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## The Morrigan

Hi,
I have doubts concerning the use of relative pronouns in English so here are some sentences, please tell me if they are all correct, thank you:

[...]

7) The man with whom I was this morning is my boss.
8) The man whom I was with this morning is my boss.
9) The man who I was with this morning is my boss.


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## hungerfordjustice

> 7) The man with whom I was this morning is my boss.
> 8) The man whom I was with this morning is my boss.
> 9) The man who I was with this morning is my boss.


 
"With whom" is rarely used and tends to sound formal--in this case it sounds wrong (we expect to hear a verb after the "was", like "The man with whom I was running..."). In general we separate the preposition and the relative pronoun. The problem with this is it sometimes forces us to end a sentence with a preposition. The best way to avoid this is to find a different way to form the sentence:

"The man whom Brigitte is going out with" <-- sounds a bit ugly to have a preposition at the end of the sentence when you use the more proper "whom"
"The man who Brigitte is going out with" <-- this is probably what you would hear--the prep. at the end is consistent in its relaxed tone with the technically incorrect "who" instead of "whom".
"The man with whom Brigitte is going out" <-- tooformal, and it sounds silly to hear a formal construction with a very informal expression "going out"
"The man whom Brigitte is dating" <-- better; the correct "whom" does not seem out of place in this case


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## jann

The expression is "to be with someone."  Splitting the expression is unnatural, so sentence (7) sounds bad, although it is grammatically justifiable.  Sentence (8) is correct... but because many English speakers do not distinguish carefully between who/whom, so you will more often hear sentence (9), although it is grammatically wrong for the purposes of e.g., a written examination of English grammar.  You could also substitute "that" into sentence (8/9).

But frankly, I wouldn't say any of those sentences.  I would omit the relative pronoun entirely:  The man I was with this morning is my boss.  The man you saw me with this morning was my boss. etc.


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## Lila39

Bonjour à toutes et tous,

Je suis en train de complèter un exercice de grammaire, où il faut ajouter des relatifs et j'ai un doute pour une phrase, si vous pouviez m'éclairer ce serait sympa : 

Hans ______ he skied with all that week rarely went on holidays.

Je ne sais pas si je dois utiliser who ou whom, ici c'est un objet et non un sujet, donc ce devrait être whom, mais à cause de la préposition "with" mise à la fin, j'ai des doutes. Est ce que "who" peut aussi être utilisé ou non ? Hans who/whom he skied with all that week rarely went on holidays.

En outre, dans l'exercice, il est précisé que des virgules peuvent parfois être ajoutées à la phrase, mais j'ai du mal à savoir si cette proposition est une proposition relative restrictive ou appositive...Les deux me semblent possibles (car je ne sais pas si "who/whom he skied with all that week apporte une précision indispensable pour la compréhension de la phrase)... . Donc j'hésite aussi entre "Hans*,* who/whom he skied with all that week*, *rarely went on holidays." et Hans who/whom he skied with all that week rarely went on holidays." 

Est ce que vous pensez que plusieurs propositions peuvent être correctes d'un point de vue grammatical ?


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## AnnieF

Welcome Lila!

Your version with commas is better, and 'whom' is correct ... although as a native speaker I would be more likely to say "Hans, with whom he skied all that week, rarely went on holidays." 

However in everyday speech, many BE speakers would say "Hans, who he skied with ..."


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## Lila39

Merci beaucoup Annie ! J'avais effectivement pensé en premier lieu à la version ""Hans, with whom he skied" mais l'exercice ne me permettait pas de changer la place des mots, maheureusement. Merci encore pour l'explication !


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## Maître Capello

Si la préposition précède le pronom relatif, celui-ci doit être _who*m*_. C'est toutefois un tour que l'on n'emploie plus vraiment, en particulier à l'oral. Si au contraire la préposition est reléguée à la fin de la phrase comme c'est presque systématiquement le cas aujourd'hui en anglais, il vaut mieux utiliser le pronom _who_, même si ce n'est pas « correct » grammaticalement. (J'ai mis des guillemets car il n'y a pas d'équivalent de l'Académie française en anglais et la notion de justesse est davantage basée sur l'usage que sur la règle.)

En bref :

_Hans with *whom* he skied_ → grammaticalement correct, mais soutenu, voire littéraire
_Hans *whom* he skied with_ → tour bâtard, à moitié « correct » (le pronom est correct mais la préposition n'est pas à la « bonne » place), de plus personne ne dirait cela → à éviter à tout prix, même si c'est la réponse qu'attend votre exercice !
_Hans *who* he skied with_ → grammaticalement faux, mais tour naturel employé par tous les anglophones → c'est ce tour qu'il faut préférer


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## RitaRoland

"Have you found out who Brigitte is going out with" is completely incorrect!
Just because it's commonly used doesn't mean it's grammatically correct.



> *Who* should be used in the subject position in a sentence, while *whom* should be used in the object position. For example, Is jean going out with amelia? Yes, he is going out with her. With whom is he going out? with her (her = whom)



So the grammatically correct question would be as follows: Have you found out with whom Brigitte is going out?


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## Keith Bradford

Shame on you, RitaRoland, for giving such misleading information to a foreign learner of English!  We all know that you can't end a sentence with a preposition. The correct form of that sentence is:

"Have you found out out with whom Brigitte is going?"


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## AmaryllisBunny

I wonder *who* he takes after. 
I wonder *whom* he takes after. 

Speaking grammatically it needs to be whom. As well, it is an incredibly common mistake but, I would not say that it is correct by that value.


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## RitaRoland

First of all, you need to watch your language when talking to people on this forum. Secondly, when have I ever ended a sentence with a preposition?! "Going out"  is a phrasal verb that can't be separated in a sentence like the one about which we're talking; it looks like you hadn't know what a phrasal verb was before I told you! Thirdly, no, one shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition, But are we even talking about a sentence? No, we are talking about a QUESTION not a sentence, and it's grammatically correct to end a question with a preposition, let alone ending it with a phrasal verb such as "Going out", because one doesn't even need to debate about it, since it's absolutely fine to end a question with a phrasal verb. "Have you found out out with whom Brigitte is going?"  is completely WRONG; "out out with" ?? Lol, are you serious? A nine year old wouldn't put that nonsense in a sentence. So it's you who needs to stop giving learners advice, since you obviously haven't got what it takes to do so!
One more time, the correct form of this QUESTION would be: "Have you found out with whom is Brigitte going out?"


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## AmaryllisBunny

@Rita

Rita, the reason for the smile he put is because, it was a joke. Ending a sentence with a preposition is perfectly fine in certain situations as the one you presented. Technically, a question is a sentence. Being grammatical yes, "Have you found out with whom...," however, the conversation is talking about spoken/common use which is not always grammatical...


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## sumelic

"Have you found out who Brigitte is going out with" is certainly not completely incorrect. For many people, it's the only natural way that they would say this question. I don't see the point of telling English language learners that it is ungrammatical.


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## Maître Capello

The old prescriptive vs. descriptive debate will never end! I believe it would be wiser to avoid using the words "correct" or "incorrect" in this case. I'd rather put it this way. Using _who_ with a dangling preposition is not following strict grammar rules. It is therefore not *standard* from a pure grammatical standpoint. On the other hand it is the most *standard/common* construction in modern English, even more so in speech.

According to the Oxford Dictionary:


> According to formal grammar, *who* forms the subjective case and so should be used in subject position in a sentence, as in _*who* decided this?_ The form *whom*, on the other hand, forms the objective case and so should be used in object position in a sentence, as in _*whom* do you think we should support?_; _to *whom* do you wish to speak?_ Although there are some speakers who still use *who* and *whom* according to the rules of formal grammar as stated here, there are many more who rarely use *whom* at all; its use has retreated steadily and is now largely restricted to formal contexts. The normal practice in modern English is to use *who* instead of *whom* (and, where applicable, to put the preposition at the end of the sentence): _*who* do you wish to speak to?_; _*who* do you think we should support?_ Such uses are today broadly accepted in standard English.


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## AmaryllisBunny

From a proper usage perspective here is the run-down...

In _Garner's Modern American Usage_, in the _LANGUAGE-CHANGE INDEX_ :
1. _who_ as an object not following a preposition: Stage 4
2. _who_ as an object following a preposition: Stage 2

Stages: 
1) Rejected
2) Widely shunned
3) Widespread but...
4) Ubiquitous but...
5) Fully accepted

Of course, because this message is clearly informal speech, it's a coin toss, despite the fact that it is _widely shunned _in proper usage.

_Garner's Modern American Usage pg. 861_


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