# Mr./Mrs.



## Sup s kotom

My understanding is that in Russian, the terms "Мистер" and "Миссис" are used to translate "Mr." and "Mrs." in foreign names. However, I've also seen the translations "Господин" and "Госпожа" given for these words. I know that native Russians don't really use such titles, but the latter two words don't look like foreign borrowings. Considering that, when would a native speaker ever use them?


----------



## morzh

Sup s kotom said:


> My understanding is that in Russian, the terms "Мистер" and "Миссис" are used to translate "Mr." and "Mrs." in foreign names. However, I've also seen the translations "Господин" and "Госпожа" given for these words. I know that native Russians don't really use such titles, but the latter two words don't look like foreign borrowings. Considering that, when would a native speaker ever use them?



Миссис is not the same as Госпожа.
Mистер is the same more or less as Господин.

The reason is, Mrs. is the honorific for a married woman. In Russian we do not have such honorific title.

But Mr. is the general one for men, and so is "Господин".


----------



## RhoKappa

Try going back to the old Soviet times, when товарищ was a common title!


----------



## morzh

RhoKappa said:


> Try going back to the old Soviet times, when товарищ was a common title!



It does not matter. The translation was still the same also in Soviet times: "Господин/Госпожа" were kept for addressing foreigners, in particular the dignitaries coming with official visits.


----------



## Maroseika

Sup s kotom said:


> Considering that, when would a native speaker ever use them?


They are used officially or in regards to the clients in some companies, but still very rare. Before 90th these titles were applied only to the foreigners from the capitalist countries or as a mocking.
This address is still very alien in Russian and sounds weird and a bit ridiculous. Fortunately, there is very good substitute of the polite address - given name plus patronimic.


----------



## morzh

Maroseika said:


> This address is still very alien in Russian and sounds weird and a bit ridiculous. Fortunately, there is very good substitute of the polite address - given name plus patronimic.



When everyone who was raised and matured during the Soviet times dies, this will stop being ridiculous.


----------



## Maroseika

Maybe, but I'm far not sure. After all, we apprehend language from our parents, so the process may take several generations. Maybe it will even never complete.
Господин in the prerevolutionary epoch was used by the minority and in regard to the monority, expressing rather servility than respect to the equal one. For the neutrally polite addressing name + patronymic was mostly used and I don't see any reason for the restoration of господин/госпожа other than European calque.


----------



## morzh

Well....."товарищ" caught up pretty quick, as I remember. Of course, some brainwashing was a great help.

But then, "Г-н/Г-жа" are title used officially, and this was their main usage back then too. It was an official addressing, in papers or in solemn procedures, like court/receptions etc. And this is how it is used today.

Name and Patronimic were used, but how do you use them when a person you address is not know to you? The problem today, as I see it, mostly lies with addressing an unknown person, a person on a street.

Today it is replaced by a similar way to the existing in other languages, using "простите/извините/будьте добры" (almost every language has it, like "excuse me/verzeihung/disculpe/scuzi" etc).

But nothing seems to be wrong with seeing a court desicion written with using "Г-н Ходорковский".

Also, when addressing in third person an official, his title is used "Мэр Лужков" - this takes care of a part of the problem.


----------



## koudryashka

Sup s kotom said:


> My understanding is that in Russian, the terms "Мистер" and "Миссис" are used to translate "Mr." and "Mrs." in foreign names. However, I've also seen the translations "Господин" and "Госпожа" given for these words. I know that native Russians don't really use such titles, but the latter two words don't look like foreign borrowings. Considering that, when would a native speaker ever use them?



If you are talking about translation of the literary text, say English into Russian, you will certainly find some cases where "Мистер" and "Миссис" are kept for the effect of authenticity, as a tribute to time or style of the work. For example, the film Mr. & Mrs. Smith [2005] was translated as Мистер и Миссис Смит. However, "Мистер" and "Миссис" are considered rather as loanwords. 

Conversely, if you take any official document, be it originally written in Russian or translated from English, you shall find "Господин" (Г-н) and "Госпожа" (Г-жа) as the bookish/old-fashioned equivalents for the form of address "Мистер" and "Миссис". "Господин" and "Госпожа" are also common to hear in formal talks (Господ*а* for plural). You may hear "Господин" and "Госпожа" in the colloquial speech too, where they generally produce a humorous effect.

Hope it helps!


----------



## Maroseika

morzh said:


> Name and Patronimic were used, but how do you use them when a person you address is not know to you?


But exactly this system is used nowdays in the most part of the correspondence I've ever seen here: name + patronymic (Уважаемый Иван Петрович...).




> But nothing seems to be wrong with seeing a court desicion written with using "Г-н Ходорковский".


You are joking? The only possible "translation" of г-н in the court decision (if any) is гражданин.


----------



## morzh

Well, I probably should've said "press commentaries about court decisions".

http://24on-line.com/news/2009-05-22-93

*Господин* Ходорковский утверждал, что его задержание и арест в  Новосибирске "были незаконным как по бумагам, так и по истинному  умыслу". ....Свое досудебное содержание под стражей *господин* Ходорковский просил признать "противозаконным....Далее в жалобе указывалось, что Басманный и Мещанский суды не  предоставили достаточных оснований для задержания *господина  *Ходорковского ...


PS. Кстати, а как пишутся решения судов в гражданских исках?
PPS. Как обращаются адвокаты и прокуроры к сторонам процесса, в гражданских исках, и в уголовных делах? Неужели все время "гражданин"?


----------



## Maroseika

morzh said:


> Well, I probably should've said "press commentaries about court decisions".


Well, that's quite another case.

http://24on-line.com/news/2009-05-22-93


> PS. Кстати, а как пишутся решения судов в гражданских исках?


Только фамилии или с прибавлением статуса: адвокат, представитель, подсудимый.
http://mos-sud.ru/services/servicetext/servicetextus/?id=71993


> PPS. Как обращаются адвокаты и прокуроры к сторонам процесса, в гражданских исках, и в уголовных делах? Неужели все время "гражданин"?


Могу судить только по административным и арбитражным судам: адвокаты изощряются кто как хочет (ваша честь, уважаемый суд, уважаемый представитель или даже господин), но судьи обращаются только по должности, никаких господ. Иногда даже так: "Сторона, ответьте...".


----------



## Saluton

The words господин, госпожа, мистер, миссис, мисс, сеньор, мадемуазель etc. are not capitalized in Russian, except for when they start the sentence, of course. Did everyone forget it?


----------



## efloyd_84

So I have a slightly different question - raised, but I think not answered earlier in this thread. What does one do if one doesn't know the patronymic of the person they are addressing, but has already interacted with them personally on some level? Say, for example, I interacted with someone in a professional setting in the U.S. largely through an interpreter and now am following up with them - in Russian, sans interpreter - having neglected to get their patronymic during our initial contact. Would it be appropriate to address this person as Г-жа Кузнецова at least until I am able to politely ask for their patronymic?


----------



## Rosett

efloyd_84 said:


> So I have a slightly different question - raised, but I think not answered earlier in this thread. What does one do if one doesn't know the patronymic of the person they are addressing, but has already interacted with them personally on some level? Say, for example, I interacted with someone in a professional setting in the U.S. largely through an interpreter and now am following up with them - in Russian, sans interpreter - having neglected to get their patronymic during our initial contact. Would it be appropriate to address this person as Г-жа Кузнецова at least until I am able to politely ask for their patronymic?


You can address her in the first line: "Уважаемая г-жа Кузнецова!".


----------



## efloyd_84

Thank you, Rosett!


----------



## Vovan

I wouldn't advise that, efloyd_84.
Often, it is OK to use the first name and the pronoun "вы" to address the person whose patronymic is unknown to you.
And you can ask for the patronymic right away if needed:
_Здравствуйте, Наталья! Как (мне) вас (называть) по отчеству?_​I can imagine only one type of situation where all this is urgent: it is when there are other people around and you address them using their patronymics.
There should always be symmetry, I guess.
And if you are called "Michael" and "вы", you should also use the first name only (and "вы").
There could be exceptions: dealing with your bride's/wife's parents or working for an elite hotel at the reception desk are a couple of typical examples.


----------



## Rosett

Vovan said:


> I wouldn't advise that


Could you please develop your point?
What's exactly wrong with the address: "Уважаемая г-жа Кузнецова!", according to your point of view?


----------



## Vovan

Rosett said:


> Could you please develop your point?
> What's exactly wrong with the address: "Уважаемая г-жа Кузнецова!", according to your point of view?


The formula may sound unexpectedly too official/polite for an ongoing interaction in a professional setting. 

It is appropriate enough to start the very first contact. Otherwise, it may even convey lack of trust.

It is best applied in business letters, and fairly formal notifications/inquiries.


----------



## Rosett

Vovan said:


> The formula may sound unexpectedly too official/polite for an ongoing interaction in a professional setting.
> 
> It is appropriate enough to start the very first contact. Otherwise, it may even convey lack of trust.
> 
> It is best applied in business letters, and fairly formal notifications/inquiries.


It's never too polite to address this way someone you already know on the business grounds. I'd reiterate that "Уважаемая г-жа Кузнецова!" in the first line is the most respectful yet politically correct and safest way to address someone whom you don't know other than through previous business only contacts.


----------

