# Έσπασες μέχρι κάτω τους φραγμούς του



## panettonea

In this sentence, is the μέχρι necessary, or would Έσπασες κάτω τους φραγμούς του not make any sense?


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## sotos

Both make sense, but we need more context. What φραγμούς?


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## Perseas

My first impression is that both phrases don't sound good. <<Between us: the former is a little better. If I would rate "Έσπασες μέχρι κάτω" 3, I would rate "Έσπασες κάτω" 2, where 5 is the best mark>> 

Of course, more context would be useful. Maybe something like "έσπασες πλήρως/ολοκληρωτικά/εντελώς τους φραγμούς"... You can however use other verbs: "καταρρίπτω/γκρεμίζω φραγμούς".


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## geogins

Perseas said:


> Maybe something like "έσπασες πλήρως/ολοκληρωτικά/εντελώς τους φραγμούς"... You can however use other verbs: "καταρρίπτω/γκρεμίζω φραγμούς".



That's how I would say it, too!


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## panettonea

sotos said:


> Both make sense, but we need more context. What φραγμούς?



Hi.  The sentence is from Ps. 89:40.  Here's a little more context:

40 έσπασες μέχρι κάτω τους φραγμούς του· αφάνισες τα οχυρώματά του· 
41 τον διαρπάζουν όλοι αυτοί που διαβαίνουν τον δρόμο· καταστάθηκε όνειδος στους γείτονές του·

http://wordplanet.org/gk/19/89.htm


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> My first impression is that both phrases don't sound good.



I just assumed that people who translated the Bible should know what they're doing, but maybe not always.  



> <<Between us: the former is a little better. If I would rate "Έσπασες μέχρι κάτω" 3, I would rate "Έσπασες κάτω" 2, where 5 is the best mark>>



OK, thanks.



> Of course, more context would be useful. Maybe something like "έσπασες πλήρως/ολοκληρωτικά/εντελώς τους φραγμούς"... You can however use other verbs: "καταρρίπτω/γκρεμίζω φραγμούς".



Maybe they should've gotten you to do the translation instead.


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## Perseas

panettonea said:


> I just assumed that people who translated the Bible should know what they're doing, but maybe not always.



The translation of the Bible is a special case.  That's why the context plays an important role and could be given in the opening post. Another thing is the time that this translation was made. I saw the text under the link and I admit that some expressions would not be used just so in a modern Greek text or in the everyday speech.


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## ireney

Note: Φραγμός is not used with this meaning in modern Greek. It's φράχτης or, more appropriate in this case I think, οχύρωμα. The second word which they translate as οχύρωμα would be better translated as οχυρό. I think I've said before that this is not the best translation to modern Greek out there. Is it made wiki like?


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## nektar

panettonea said:


> Hi.  The sentence is from Ps. 89:40.  Here's a little more context:
> 
> 40 έσπασες μέχρι κάτω τους φραγμούς του· αφάνισες τα οχυρώματά του·
> 41 τον διαρπάζουν όλοι αυτοί που διαβαίνουν τον δρόμο· καταστάθηκε όνειδος στους γείτονές του·



Hey!!!

"Έσπασες μέχρι κάτω τους φραγμούς του" makes no sense. I believe it means "γκρέμισες όλα τα φράγματα/οχυρά". "Φράγμα" means "barricade", "οχυρό" means "fortress" and "γκρεμίζω" means "to demolish". So, it is "you demolished all barricades/fortresses".


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> The translation of the Bible is a special case.  That's why the context plays an important role and could be given in the opening post. Another thing is the time that this translation was made. I saw the text under the link and I admit that some expressions would not be used just so in a modern Greek text or in the everyday speech.



OK, thanks for the info.  I just assumed this translation was pretty modern.  So, what is the most modern Greek translation of the Bible, and exactly where can you find it?


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> I think I've said before that this is not the best translation to modern Greek out there.



It definitely doesn't seem to be.



> Is it made wiki like?



Could you please clarify what you mean here?


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## panettonea

nektar said:


> "Έσπασες μέχρι κάτω τους φραγμούς του" makes no sense.



Well, I suppose it did in the 1920s at least, nektar.


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## ireney

I was just wondering if you knew where this translation comes from. As for an official translation of the Bible in modern Greek, well, I don't think there's any free online ones. You can check wikipedia for the existing ones but, since we can't provide links to commercial products here I can't give you one


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> I was just wondering if you knew where this translation comes from.



The stork brought it.  

Seriously, I'll have to see what I can find out.  



> As for an official translation of the Bible in modern Greek, well, I don't think there's any free online ones. You can check wikipedia for the existing ones but, since we can't provide links to commercial products here I can't give you one



Could you at least give me the official name/version of the most modern Greek translation(s), so I can try to find it on the Web myself?  I don't mind paying for one.


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## panettonea

OK, I just found this version, which I think is from 1997.  Does it sound a bit more modern?

Excerpt:

40Γκρέμισες όλα τα πέτρινα μαντριά του·
Έκανες ερείπια τα οχυρώματά του.

41Όλοι όσοι περνούσαν από το δρόμο τον λαφυραγώγησαν·
Έγινε όνειδος στους γείτονές του.


*http://tinyurl.com/ot4dfqh
*


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## panettonea

Here's another one by Vamvas:

http://www.gospel.gr/

As for who translated the original version I posted, I've searched but can't find anything about the translator or date, unfortunately.


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## ireney

The first one you cite is made from the Jehova's witnesses. I have no clue if that has any significance. For instance the "πέτρινα μαντριά". While it's not one of the translations of ancient Greek "φραγμός" (where did the stone part come from, for instance) it could very well be that they've looked at the original Hebrew. Or not. I'm far from an expert in these things I'm afraid. The second one does not give any information about who did the translation and looks like it's in Katharevousa. 

The "Η Αγία Γραφή, Μετάφραση από τα Πρωτότυπα Κείμενα" is, according to the wikipedia article, the one officially sanctioned by the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece (that would be the Orthodox one   ). This page lists all the translations to modern Greek, apparently.


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> The first one you site is made from the Jehova's witnesses.



That's what I thought when I saw the word "Watchtower."  



> The second one does not give any information about who did the translation and looks like it's in Katharevousa.



Yeah, the language did seem kind of old-fashioned.



> The "Η Αγία Γραφή, Μετάφραση από τα Πρωτότυπα Κείμενα" is, according to the wikipedia article, the one officially sanctioned by the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece (that would be the Orthodox one   ).



Oh, that's from '97, huh?



> This page lists all the translations to modern Greek, apparently.



Thanks, ireney.  I found a Web site where you can download some software and read the Spyros Filos translation (which is supposed to be pretty popular, from what I learned from a Google search) for free, so I'll see if I can get it to work on my computer.  Right now, it's still downloading.


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## panettonea

OK, mystery solved!

I downloaded the software and finally figured out how to load the Spyros Filos Greek module (it was very confusing).  For anyone who's interested, here are all the possible modules:

http://www.theword.net/index.php?downloads.modules&l=english

After the installation,  I took a look at the Spyros Filos version (4th edition, 2003).  And guess what--it's *exactly* the same as the original version that you were inquiring about, ireney!!  So, now we know--what I've been quoting from all along was translated by Spyros Filos. 

So, even though that translation is a 4th edition from 2003, it's still pretty old-fashioned, huh???

Can the _Η Αγία Γραφή, Μετάφραση από τα Πρωτότυπα Κείμενα_ even be purchased in the U.S., I wonder?  Also, if anybody owns a copy, could you please post the text of Ps. 89:40-41 so that we can compare it with what we've seen already?  I'm starting to wonder--what if there _aren't_ really any completely modern translations out there? 

Now all I have to do is figure out how to _uninstall_ everything I just downloaded....


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## Perseas

panettonea said:


> So, even though that translation is a 4th edition from 2003, it's still pretty old-fashioned, huh???


Probably the translator wanted to stick to some words/phrases of the ancient text.

This is the ancient text:
_40:      Καθείλες πάντας τους φραγμούς αυτού, έθου τα οχυρώματα αυτού δειλίαν.      
41: Διήρπαζον αυτόν πάντες οι διοδεύοντες οδόν, εγενήθη όνειδος τοις γείτοσιν      αυτού._
http://www.pigizois.net/vivlia/psalmoi_david/081_090.htm

And this is the text cited in post #5:
_40 έσπασες μέχρι κάτω τους φραγμούς του· αφάνισες τα οχυρώματά του· 
41 τον διαρπάζουν όλοι αυτοί που διαβαίνουν τον δρόμο· καταστάθηκε όνειδος στους γείτονές του·_

It seems that some words have remained "untranslated"* in the Modern Greek text. I don't see any problem at that, on the condition that people know very well the context of Bible. But as mentioned before "φραγμοί" in Modern Greek means something different; it can be used in a metaphorical sense, for ex. "δεν έχει κανένα φραγμό" ~ "he will stick at nothing".

*I put the word in quotations, because we refer to a procedure that was made in the same language (Greek), though in different forms of it.


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## nektar

Perseas said:


> Probably the translator wanted to stick to some words/phrases of the ancient text.
> 
> This is the ancient text:
> _40:      Καθείλες πάντας τους φραγμούς αυτού, έθου τα οχυρώματα αυτού δειλίαν.
> 41: Διήρπαζον αυτόν πάντες οι διοδεύοντες οδόν, εγενήθη όνειδος τοις γείτοσιν      αυτού._
> 
> And this is the text cited in post #5:
> _40 έσπασες μέχρι κάτω τους φραγμούς του· αφάνισες τα οχυρώματά του·
> 41 τον διαρπάζουν όλοι αυτοί που διαβαίνουν τον δρόμο· καταστάθηκε όνειδος στους γείτονές του·_




Being a Greek - not an ancient one!!!  - the initial text makes more sense to me. As for the translation and keeping some words from the initial text, I believe that the translation by Vamvas that panettonea suggested makes that more succesfully... 

Good luck with finding a good translation!

Καλημέρα σε όλους!


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> Probably the translator wanted to stick to some words/phrases of the ancient text.  I don't see any problem at that, on the condition that people know very well the context of Bible.



So I guess it's unlikely that there's a truly "contemporary" version of the Greek Bible out there then?


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## panettonea

nektar said:


> Good luck with finding a good translation!



Thanks.  At this point, I'm thinking it will take a _miracle_.


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## panettonea

Woo-hoo--it looks like I might have gotten my miracle!   

After doing a ton of searching, I was about ready to give up, but then I stumbled upon this Web site:

http://bibles.org/ell-TGVD/Ps/89

This appears to be the "officially approved" version from 1997.  (The numbering of the verses here seems to differ by one.  I've noticed  that French translations often do the same thing--I have no idea why.)

So, how contemporary does this language sound?  Is it more "normal" than that of the Filos version?   Inquiring minds want to know!!!  

41Όλα τα τείχη του τα γκρέμισες,
ερείπια έκανες τα οχυρά του.
42Στο δρόμο όσοι περνούν τον λεηλατούν·
στους γείτονές του έγινε περίγελως.


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## Perseas

panettonea said:


> So, how contemporary does this language sound?  Is it more "normal" than that of the Filos version?   Inquiring minds want to know!!!
> 
> 41Όλα τα τείχη του τα γκρέμισες,
> ερείπια έκανες τα οχυρά του.
> 42Στο δρόμο όσοι περνούν τον λεηλατούν·
> στους γείτονές του έγινε περίγελως.



In my opinion, the language of that version is more plain than the other's. More straightforward Greek.


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## ireney

It does look like you found the official one! Excellent sleuth work!


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> In my opinion, the language of that version is more plain than the other's. More straightforward Greek.



Thanks.  I'll probably use mostly that version then.  Here's something interesting, though.  The official version is the only version I've seen that uses the 2nd-person possessive in its translation of Psalm 89:40 (or 89:39 in other versions):

το διάδημά *σου* το ξευτέλισες

Compare:

Filos:  βεβήλωσες το διάδημά *του* μέχρι τη γη
Vamvas: εβεβήλωσας το διάδημα *αυτού*

In addition, I looked at another Web site that lists 19 different English translations for this (or any other) verse, and they _all_ use "his" instead of "your" in this verse.  So, is it likely that the official version has a typo in this verse?  Here's another word that made me wonder:

89:49  χωρίς ο θάνατος να *τονε* φτάνει;

I'm not sure what *τονε *means, but since there's no accent on the word, I thought that maybe it's a typo for *τον*?  I'm probably wrong, though.  

For any further questions I have, I'll start new threads, but I just thought these two matters were a bit strange.


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## panettonea

ireney said:


> It does look like you found the official one! Excellent sleuth work!



Thanks.  Now maybe I can try to track down the Loch Ness monster.  

Incidentally, perhaps someone can add this URL to the Resources link at the top of the forum page.  I can't be the only person who would ever want to use this.


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## Perseas

panettonea said:


> So, is it likely that the official version has a typo in this verse?


I 'm thinking the same.



panettonea said:


> In addition, I looked at another Web site that lists 19 different English translations for this (or any other) verse,...


 I have no doubt about it .



panettonea said:


> Here's another word that made me wonder:
> 
> 89:49  χωρίς ο θάνατος να *τονε* φτάνει;
> 
> I'm not sure what *τονε *means, but since there's no accent on the word, I thought that maybe it's a typo for *τον*?  I'm probably wrong, though.


No, *τονε *is not a typo for *τον*, it's an alternative form. Of course *τον *is standard amd more common.


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> I have no doubt about it .



That's pretty sad if this version, which was translated by 12 Greek professors, has a typo here.  Of course, it is possible that only the Web version has the typo, not the printed version.  Dunno how likely that is, though.  



> No, *τονε *is not a typo for *τον*, it's an alternative form. Of course *τον *is standard and more common.



OK, this will be my last question in this thread.  Why doesn't *τονε *have an accent, and why, do you think, would it be used in such an official translation of the Bible instead of *τον*?


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## Perseas

panettonea said:


> OK, this will be my last question in this thread.  Why doesn't *τονε *have an accent, and why, do you think, would it be used in such an official translation of the Bible instead of *τον*?


My impression is that it is used just for metrical reason. There is a better rhythm.
_τονε/τηνε_ are dissylabic pronouns, alternatives to _τον/την_. According to this below_ τονε_ should be accented on the first syllable (τόνε), though the writer indirectly admits a peculiarity: 





> Στις _Oδηγίες,_ αρ. 5, δέν υπάρχει πρόβλεψη για τη γραφή δισύλλαβων εγκλιτικών (_τονε, τηνε_).  Aπο τα άλλα παραδείγματα όμως συμπεραίνεται πως θα γραφτεί το­νικό  σημάδι στην πρώτη τους συλλαβή, έστω κι αν αυτά είναι λέξεις άτονες.


Source:http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/studies/history/thema_16/01.html

However, the forms _τονε/τηνε are_ very rarely used in the written speech, and in oral speech they are not accented.


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## panettonea

Perseas said:


> My impression is that it is used just for metrical reason.



Well, that won't fly in the U.S., because we don't use the metric system.  



> There is a better rhythm.



Rhythm?  So, is this supposed to be the MTV version of the Bible or something?  And is there some rapping in the book of Proverbs too?  



> _τονε/τηνε_ are dissylabic pronouns, alternatives to _τον/την_.



What's interesting is that my book,_ Greek: A Comprehensive Grammar of the Modern Language_, which is very comprehensive and lists alternative forms for just about everything, doesn't even mention _τονε, _if I'm not mistaken.  I guess they considered the form to be pretty obscure.  



> According to this below_ τονε_ should be accented on the first syllable (τόνε), though the writer indirectly admits a peculiarity: Source:http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/studies/history/thema_16/01.html
> 
> However, the forms _τονε/τηνε are_ very rarely used in the written speech, and in oral speech they are not accented.



Thanks for the helpful info.  Right now, I'm not too impressed with those 12 professors.  I wonder if they even made tenure?


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