# Urdu: بلدیہ



## BP.

Hello

I was wondering how do you pronounce the word بلدیہ. I'm used to pronouncing it _baladiyah_, but each time I say it there's one of those blank-stare moments. Has been such for the last two decades, and I want to resolve it now. Your input will be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Hello
> 
> I was wondering how do you pronounce the word بلدیہ. I'm used to pronouncing it _baladiyah_, but each time I say it there's one of those blank-stare moments. Has been such for the last two decades, and I want to resolve it now. Your input will be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.



*aap ke tamaam dukh duur ho jaa'eN ge agar aap aaj se is lafz ko "baldiyyah" kaa naam de deN!!*


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## BP.

Will it be correct though? Could you tell me which one is correct?


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Will it be correct though? Could you tell me which one is correct?



*BP SaaHib,

From the Arabic perspective, your pronunciation is correct. 

balad>>>>baladii (baladiyy)>>>baladiyyah

However, in our part of the world we have a habit of "gobbling up" the vowel in such cases and end up having bal+diyyah or even bal-diya(h). So, IMHO, your listeners are expecting you to utter "my" version!

For further on this topic, please refer to a discussion I began a few days back.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2200269
*


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## BP.

Thank you. So essentially I can stand my ground then

Thanks for your link. Can I say, we all have our nazaniin moment! What happens with baladiyyah appears to be a similar phenomenon. However, this means too that there are at least some people with whom baladiyyah has survived elision.


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Thank you. So essentially I can stand my ground then
> 
> Thanks for your link. Can I say, we all have our nazaniin moment! What happens with baladiyyah appears to be a similar phenomenon. However, this means too that there are at least some people with whom baladiyyah has survived elision.



*You may most certainly stand your ground BUT, I believe in Urdu the correct pronunciation has become "baldiyyah", just like "naazniin" is the correct pronunciation in current times. I have to admit that I do like saying "naazaniin" with my "posh" Farsi accent!*


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> *You may most certainly stand your ground BUT, I believe in Urdu the correct pronunciation has become "baldiyyah", just like "naazniin" is the correct pronunciation in current times.*


Hi Qureshpor, Academically, I would tend to respectfully disagree. (Practically, I gobble up these vowels too if I'm not careful!). A good exercise would be to see how the classical Urdu poets treated these Persian and Arabic words in metre (wazn). Poetry was meant to be declaimed to I imagine they would have treated it one way or the other.

Unfortunately I know next to nothing about the science of metre so I'll have to leave this to someone else...!


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> Hi Qureshpor, Academically, I would tend to respectfully disagree. (Practically, I gobble up these vowels too if I'm not careful!). A good exercise would be to see how the classical Urdu poets treated these Persian and Arabic words in metre (wazn). Poetry was meant to be declaimed to I imagine they would have treated it one way or the other.
> 
> Unfortunately I know next to nothing about the science of metre so I'll have to leave this to someone else...!



*You make a very valid point, Daee SaaHib. I too know nothing about prosody but I am quite certain that in Urdu poetry the word is indeed "naazniin" and not "naazaniin". As for "baladiyyah"/"baldiyyah", this is how it is spelt in this dictionaryhttp://oud.crulp.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=105623* ہَلْدِیہ . *You can see that this proves my point. The same dictionary gives "naazniin/naazaniin" as *نازْنِیں, *with the other version as an alternative.*


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> *You make a very valid point, Daee SaaHib. I too know nothing about prosody but I am quite certain that in Urdu poetry the word is indeed "naazniin" and not "naazaniin". As for "baladiyyah"/"baldiyyah", this is how it is spelt in this dictionaryhttp://oud.crulp.org/oud/viewword.aspx?refid=105623* ہَلْدِیہ . *You can see that this proves my point. The same dictionary gives "naazniin/naazaniin" as *نازْنِیں, *with the other version as an alternative.*


I'm a little confused about baladiyya because the link you sent showed haldiya.

But in general, I think you are right from a descriptionist standpoint. Without deviating too far into a cultural discussion, I think since the fall of the Perso-centric monarchy of North India, Urdu, being still quite a young language, was kind of left on it's own in terms of development. 

I remember reading somewhere, a statement to the effect that a corruption in a word becomes faSeeH, not when the 3awaamm begin using it, but when it becomes 3aamm among the scholars of the language, and that has occurred in many cases.


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## Qureshpor

daee said:


> I'm a little confused about baladiyya because the link you sent showed haldiya.



*Apologies. It seems I need to eat more carrots!*


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## Faylasoof

I think I’ll agree with you QP SaHeb! In Urdu we have indeed put a *sukuun* on ‘*laam*’! In our speech too we have it! But please do go ahead with the carrots if you still feel like it! _nosh-e-jaan_! 
 
In Urdu, as per our (_lakhnavi_) speech and as per 20th Century Urdu Dictionary & the later edition, 21st Century Urdu Dictionary:

بَلْدِیّہ *baldiyyah** = municipality, municipal committee
[* With a *sukuun* on ‘*laam*’. However, pronounced by most as *baldiyah*, i.e. without the *shaddah*! "We’ve" still kept the *shaddah*!]

I heard the same in Karachi too by many, though not all, Urduphones.

Related word: بَلْدِیاتی *baldiyaatii* - again with a _*sukuun*_ on '_*laam*_'. Mostly I haven't heard the _*shaddah*_ on this one either!


In Arabic:

بلدية *baladiyah* = township community, rural community

Different pronunciation.


Daee SaHeb, although I have much to agree with your point about how words become faSiiH ( the 3awaam / 3aam argument ) but without going off-topic (i.e. into cultural and linguistic history), I'd like to mention in passing that Urdu standards were kept up at least by our poets, prose writers and critics, many of whom were well-versed in Arabic and Persian (and some even familiar with Sanskrit, Prakrit and Braj). Though this didn't always guarantee how a word borrowed from either Arabic or Persian could be made to retain its original pronunciation (or its meaning).


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## BP.

Why has it survived in one strain of the language? Why do I still have the a?


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Why has it survived in one strain of the language? Why do I still have the a?


 Not sure! But I also note that not only you have the 'a' _Harakah_ on '_laam_' but also no _shaddah_ on 'yaa'. Variation in a dialectic /sub-dialectic?


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## BP.

No I'm on the wall with the tashdiid. Sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't, esp. in an informal confab.


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## Abu Talha

QURESHPOR said:


> *Apologies. It seems I need to eat more carrots!*


Haha! No worries, Qureshpor SaHib!




Faylasoof said:


> but without going off-topic (i.e. into cultural and linguistic history), I'd like to mention in passing that Urdu standards were kept up at least by our poets, prose writers and critics, many of whom were well-versed in Arabic and Persian (and some even familiar with Sanskrit, Prakrit and Braj).



Indeed, no argument there, Faylasoof SaHib. I have some stored up musings on the cultural-liguistics history but this is not the forum for them!



Faylasoof said:


> Not sure! But I also note that not only you have the 'a' _Harakah_ on '_laam_' but also no _shaddah_ on 'yaa'. Variation in a dialectic /sub-dialectic?


I might be totally inconsistent here, but I although I'm (theoretically) in the camp of those who prefer to keep the Harakah on the laam, I don't mind the lack of shaddah on the yaa. Maybe because, Urdu has a mechanism for forming nouns by adding an unstressed yaa. 
Actually, I think I am inconsistent, because the complete word was borrowed, not just balad. Oh well...


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## Faylasoof

daee said:


> Indeed, no argument there, Faylasoof SaHib. I have some stored up musings on the cultural-liguistics history but this is not the forum for them!


 Well, Daee SaHeb, I guess we could always try the Culture Cafe here at WRF!



daee said:


> I might be totally inconsistent here, but I although I'm (theoretically) in the camp of those who prefer to keep the Harakah on the laam, I don't mind the lack of shaddah on the yaa. Maybe because, Urdu has a mechanism for forming nouns by adding an unstressed yaa.
> Actually, I think I am inconsistent, because the complete word was borrowed, not just balad. Oh well...


 I have to say I would rather that we had kept the _Harakah_! We could still try to get our fellow _urdugoyaan_ get used to it! 

The unstressed _yaa_ in Urdu nouns? I'm not sure how many unstressed vs. stressed _yaa_ nouns (N) and adjectives (Adj.) we have in Urdu. Certainly the ones coming to mind now all seem to be with a stressed '_yaa_':
_*aadmiyyat*_ (N); _*barbariyyat*_ (N), _*xairiyyat*_ (N); _*Haiwaaniyyat*_ (N); _*waaqifiyyat*_ (N); _*3ishqiyyah*_ (Adj.) etc.

So perhaps *baldiyyah* is not so different!


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## Abu Talha

Faylasoof said:


> Well, Daee SaHeb, I guess we could always try the Culture Cafe here at WRF!


True. But to be honest, most of my opinions will be based on the study of a language, not linguistics; and a subjective view of culture, with little or no references. They might be suitable for a drawing-room discussion but not here!



Faylasoof said:


> I have to say I would rather that we had kept the _Harakah_! We could still try to get our fellow _urdugoyaan_ get used to it!
> 
> The unstressed _yaa_ in Urdu nouns? I'm not sure how many unstressed vs. stressed _yaa_ nouns (N) and adjectives (Adj.) we have in Urdu. Certainly the ones coming to mind now all seem to be with a stressed '_yaa_':
> _*aadmiyyat*_ (N); _*barbariyyat*_ (N), _*xairiyyat*_ (N); _*Haiwaaniyyat*_ (N); _*waaqifiyyat*_ (N); _*3ishqiyyah*_ (Adj.) etc.
> 
> So perhaps *baldiyyah* is not so different!


Yes, you are of course right and I stand corrected. I think I was confused with an unstressed ي that we have in words like تربيت e (تربية) .
Thanks everyone!


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## Faylasoof

daee said:


> True. But to be honest, most of my opinions will be based on the study of a language, not linguistics; and a subjective view of culture, with little or no references. They might be suitable for a drawing-room discussion but not here!


 OK! Then we can wait for a drawing-room gathering sometime in the future!



daee said:


> Yes, you are of course right and I stand corrected. I think I was confused with an unstressed ي that we have in words like تربيت e (تربية) .
> Thanks everyone!


 You are welcome, Daee Saaheb!


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