# δράκος



## modus.irrealis

Hi,

When people hear the word δράκος, what kind of monster do they think of first? For me it's an ogre (at least when it comes to παραμύθια) but the other day I was talking to a Greek person who didn't even think it could be used that way and thought it only referred to dragons and I looked at some online bookstores and it seemed that δράκος always referred to dragons in children's books. So now I'm wondering whether the ogre meaning is not so common and if not, what do people call ogres?


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## orthophron

Hi.δράκος is the ogre while δράκοντας < δράκων is the dragon. However the word δράκος can be used for both.


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## Tetina

Hi, Modus.
If you ask me, I would agree with your greek friend. When I hear the word it comes to my mind the chinese type of "dragon" or something like a reptile, which apears in fairytales or mythology. 

"Ogre" I don't exactly understand..... My dictionary gives "human-like dragon".... but like who for example???
Usually, in its modern greek use, "δράκος" for humans is refered to rapists.


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## ateaofimdomar

I agree with Tetina and with your Greek friend, modus.irrealis. In Greek, there are not many variations for mythological monsters, so "ogre" is a little hard to translate. Usually, it is rendered as τέρας, monster, like in the film Shrek. 
We have the same problem with various creatures such as goblins, elfs, leprechauns, fairies, gnomes, etc etc.


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## modus.irrealis

Hmm... so I guess the ogre-meaning is becoming less common. I just remember that in fairy tales I heard as a kid, the δράκος was basically an ogre -- and even the definitions are very similar: compare this Greek definition:

*1α.* (λαογρ.) φανταστικό ανθρωπόμορφο και ανθρωποφάγο τέρας με υπερφυσική δύναμη

with this English definition:

1. a monster in fairy tales and popular legend, usually represented as a hideous giant who feeds on human flesh.


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## Outsider

ateaofimdomar said:


> I agree with Tetina and with your Greek friend, modus.irrealis. In Greek, there are not many variations for mythological monsters, so "ogre" is a little hard to translate. Usually, it is rendered as τέρας, monster, like in the film Shrek.
> We have the same problem with various creatures such as goblins, elfs, leprechauns, fairies, gnomes, etc etc.


Those creatures belong to the popular lore of northern Europe. They seem to be foreign to southern Europe. 

(Well, the word "ogre" is apparently of Latin origin (<_orcus_), but I know that "troll", for example, has no straightforward translation in the Romance languages, and we often translate troll as "ogre".)

Of note also is the cognate _dracul_, which means "devil" in modern Romanian. Perhaps in the Balkans the notion of "dragon" was broadened to include any evil creature.


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## ireney

Well, to begin with, a dragon is what most people think of when talking about δράκος.
That does not mean it doesn't have other meanings. This is evident by the fact that serial rapists are called such too.


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## Tetina

> We have the same problem with various creatures such as goblins, elfs, leprechauns, fairies, gnomes, etc etc.


 
I think for "human-like dragons" we use other words in greek, for example "τελώνιο", "ξωτικό", "δαιμόνιο" and "νεράιδα".


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## ateaofimdomar

Tetina said:


> I think for "human-like dragons" we use other words in greek, for example "τελώνιο", "ξωτικό", "δαιμόνιο" and "νεράιδα".


 
Actually, the ogre that modus.irrealis refers to has nothing to do with any of the above. As I said before, it's hard to find a correspondent term for each of these creatures.

Let's take _ξωτικό_ for example. This word translates _elf_, _leprechaun_ and _gnome_ (and several others that I don't remember right now). So, it has nothing to do with the ogre, i.e. a *scary *human-like creature (Tolkien fans for example know that elves are the good ones ). 

However, _ξωτικό_ also translates _goblin, _which is a scary creature but not a dragon.

_Nεράιδα _translates a pixie, a fairy and a banshee (again, no dragon or ogre here)

_Tελώνιο_ could be a translation for ogre, for goblin and for troll.

_Δαιμόνιο _in Greek folklore is an evil spirit, often dwelling in forests, rivers and seas and having as a purpose to unleash evil problems upon man, by means of deceipt or treachery.

It's as Observer said: the creatures that were mentioned above, i.e. ogres, leprechauns, banshees etc belong to the folklore of Northern Europe and don't have exact equivalences into Greek (neither in Portuguese, as far as I know, of course ). However, the same also applies vice-versa, i.e. we can't find an exact equivalent for _αερικό _in English, which is a fairy-like spirit.


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## Tetina

Ouf! Sorry, but I don't get it... What is an orge? Any example from a story or anything...?


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## robbie_SWE

Tetina said:


> Ouf! Sorry, but I don't get it... What is an orge? Any example from a story or anything...?


 
Hi Tetina! 

This is an ogre ! 

 robbie


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## Outsider

Ogre in general.


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## robbie_SWE

ateaofimdomar said:


> Actually, the ogre that modus.irrealis refers to has nothing to do with any of the above. As I said before, it's hard to find a correspondent term for each of these creatures.
> 
> Let's take _ξωτικό_ for example. This word translates _elf_, _leprechaun_ and _gnome_ (and several others that I don't remember right now). So, it has nothing to do with the ogre, i.e. a *scary *human-like creature (Tolkien fans for example know that elves are the good ones ).
> 
> However, _ξωτικό_ also translates _goblin, _which is a scary creature but not a dragon.
> 
> _Nεράιδα _translates a pixie, a fairy and a banshee (again, no dragon or ogre here)
> 
> _Tελώνιο_ could be a translation for ogre, for goblin and for troll.
> 
> _Δαιμόνιο _in Greek folklore is an evil spirit, often dwelling in forests, rivers and seas and having as a purpose to unleash evil problems upon man, by means of deceipt or treachery.
> 
> It's as Observer said: the creatures that were mentioned above, i.e. ogres, leprechauns, banshees etc belong to the folklore of Northern Europe and don't have exact equivalences into Greek (neither in Portuguese, as far as I know, of course ). However, the same also applies vice-versa, i.e. we can't find an exact equivalent for _αερικό _in English, which is a fairy-like spirit.


 
When I looked up the word "ogre" in my online Greek dictionary the word *δράκοντας *(drákontas) came up, but I don't know if it's accurate. 

 robbie


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## ateaofimdomar

Well, the dictionary has to have an explanation, however, ogre does not have an exact equivalent in modern Greek (at least not to my knowledge ).

Shrek was translated as _monster _in the film. The word you found would mean _dragon_ or _dragon-like monster_ for most Greeks. I don't know if the word δράκοντας used to mean something else in the past, today, however, it would not bring the meaning _humanlike monster_ to mind.


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## ireney

I'll say this again: Serial rapists are called ogres, "drakoi" (sorry, no Greek keyboard in this laptop). That shows that the medieval meaning has survived albeit for a very specific usage. Note since dragons themselves are not part of the Greek folklore. Some of the Greek folklore stories speaking of dragons describe the beast in such a way that it is closer to an ogre than a human.
That does not mean however that those who say that for most modern Greeks it does _not_ mean "ogre". What with it not being part of the Greek mythology to begin with and people forgetting the old folklore stories, I fear it was inevitable


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## caledonianstill

Tetina just image google the word ogre and you gonna see many of them. sometimes pictures are better than words.

but have safesearch on


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## ateaofimdomar

I've been trying to remember some folklore story describing an ogre-like creature, but I can't. All the δράκοντες in the stories I've heard from my grandmother resemple dragons, like the one that St. George killed.

Does anybody have any story in mind? Maybe then we could have a reference as to what δράκος used to mean!


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## modus.irrealis

I couldn't find much on line -- there's an old story here (with an illustration).


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## Tetina

Thanks to everyone, with some googling and Shrek of course, I finally got it. 
Another question though....
Would you say that the greek mythological monsters or deities like Pan, Satyrs, Kekrops etc. that were half-human half-animal, could be refered as "ogre" or it's an entirely different thing?


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## ateaofimdomar

Pan was a satyr (or faunus). For σάτυρος there is a correspondence, satyr (or faunus )

Cecrops, to my knowledge, was not one of a series of similar creatures, like the ogres, the dragons etc. but just this one person; therefore, even in Greek, when saying Cecrops we mean him, not any creature like him.

@modus.irrealis: thanks!


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## anthodocheio

ireney said:


> [...]Note since dragons themselves are not part of the Greek folklore. Some of the Greek folklore stories speaking of dragons describe the beast in such a way that it is closer to an ogre than a human.
> That does not mean however that those who say that for most modern Greeks it does _not_ mean "ogre". What with it not being part of the Greek mythology to begin with and people forgetting the old folklore stories, I fear it was inevitable


 
I'm confused Rena...

I think that δράκος, δράκοντας as well as *θεριό* are part of the Greek forklore. I managed to find these. 
http://www.karpasha.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=672&Itemid=2 (look at the last picture)
http://noctoc-noctoc.blogspot.com/2007/05/yiannis-and-dragon.html

By the way. Where would it be OK to leave a link like this: http://www.sarantakos.com/keimenamazi.html ?


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## peri+kleos

Guys, how about Λάμια (Lamia) for a Greek ogre ? Search for her on Wikipedia... It seems I cant post a link.


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## ireney

Αυτή τη στιγμή δαγκώνω τη γροθιά μου και κουνάω το κεφάλι μου!  Περαιτέρω συζήτηση για το πολύ ενδιαφέρον θέμα της μετάφρασης διάφορων μυθολογικών πλασμάτων θα πρέπει  να διεξαχθεί σε άλλη θεματική ενότητα.


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## ireney

My patient anthodocheio mou (you know what I am talking about I'm sure) it's not as if we don't have folklore stories with dragons, I didn't mean that. But the concept of the dragons was imported so to speak. While Dionysus too for example was imported, it was done so long ago  and his story became so adapted to the Greek mythology that we can say that he and his merry companions are part of the Greek mythological tradition. The dragons however, being imported, appear in folklore stories that either are barely adapted repetitions of stories of other people or are just adaptations of ancient Greek stories (you take the ancient Greek story, you put a dragon there, you change the customs a bit if needed to depict modern times and there you go).

As to the link PM me because I don't understand what you are referring to


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## Kevman

Γεια σας folks,


modus.irrealis said:


> I couldn't find much on line -- there's an old story here (with an illustration).


The story modus linked to is from a book called _Παραμύθια του λαού μας_ which I have actually read.  There are also a few other fairy tales in the book in which *δράκοι* refers to mean, giant men.  Incidentally, now that I'm learning German it turns out that most of those παραμύθια are in fact Greek versions of Brothers Grimm stories, but whether they originated in German or came independently from some older common (Balkan?) source I don't know (although there are enough differences to make me suspect the latter).  The Grimm Brothers' version of «Κυρ-Λάζαρος» is "Das tapfere Schneiderlein" (Ο ανδρείος ραφτάκης), and the 'bad guys' in it are simply called *Riesen* (γίγες) in German.



anthodocheio said:


> By the way. Where would it be OK to leave a link like this: http://www.sarantakos.com/keimenamazi.html ?


In my bookmarks!  Ευχαριστώ!



peri+kleos said:


> Guys, how about Λάμια (Lamia) for a Greek ogre ? Search for her on Wikipedia... It seems I cant post a link.


As I understand it, Λάμια is half woman/half snake.  Ogres tend to be large, mean, ugly, basically human-shaped and stereotypically male (a female ogre would be an _ogress_).


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## Flaminius

ireney said:


> The dragons however, being imported, appear in folklore stories that either are barely adapted repetitions of stories of other people or are just adaptations of ancient Greek stories (you take the ancient Greek story, you put a dragon there, you change the customs a bit if needed to depict modern times and there you go).


Eirene mou , then what did the word _drakōn_ originally mean?


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## brian

Flaminius said:


> Eirene mou , then what did the word _drakōn_ originally mean?



Serpent/snake... and then (later?) sea-serpent/sea-snake.

I _think_ the "sea" denotation is not original to the word--it was tacked on later--but I'm not 100% sure.

δράκων is interchangeable with ὄφις, "serpent, snake," according to Liddel & Scott--at least for Hesiod--but I personally don't think the the number of corpus references is great enough to say with accuracy whether this really is the case or not.


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## winegrower

More or less I agree with everyone here that we don't have real human-like ogres in Greek legends, except maybe Cyclops and giants. All the rest are imported from foreign lore and we call them with specific names like λυκάνθρωπος, δράκουλας or generally τέρας.
Δράκος or δράκοντας bring to mind the typical reptile-like creatures from fairytales.


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## modus.irrealis

Thanks to Flaminius bringing this thread, I was reminded of my question and being at my parents' house, I asked my mom what a δράκος was and she described something maybe not quite an ogre but giant-like ("μεγάλος", "με μεγάλη δύναμη") and when I asked her if it was anything serpent-like, the answer was όχι. She left Greece in the late seventies, so this dragon thing is at most 40 years old .

Maybe it's a regional thing as well as an age thing?


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## orthophron

Since the matter has come back to the front I 'd like to add some more interesting - I think - information.
I always believed that old movies can sometimes give some kind of evidence. In the film "η κάλπικη λίρα" (1955), in 3rd episode, the grasping landlord is called "δράκος" (at 1h 5m) and a litlle girl hides under the bed because she thinks he has come to eat her (at 1h 10m). I was just thinking that if one asked that girl how she imagines a "δράκος" is, she might recite the features of a wild man (in fiction of course a monster can be transformed to man). Furthermore if one looked the word "δράκος" in a dictionary of 1960, he would read the description of a humanoid monster.
The rendering of "dragon" (δράκων) by "δράκος" today is a result of the establishment of the "demotic" Greek. Let's remember how "χάρων", "γέρων" became "χάρος", "γέρος".
The difference between δράκος (human-like) and δράκων (the snake-like green monster) is also supported in this article (it is taken from the book "Ταυτότητες και ετερότητες"). I was surprised to read about the superstitious belief of some people that a baby baptized "Δράκος" would inherit his strength.


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## syrtos.as

Hello ireney
so we can assume that δράκος = human monster, inhuman person? 

Many thanks in advance!
Alberto



ireney said:


> I'll say this again: Serial rapists are called ogres, "drakoi" (sorry, no Greek keyboard in this laptop). That shows that the medieval meaning has survived albeit for a very specific usage. Note since dragons themselves are not part of the Greek folklore. Some of the Greek folklore stories speaking of dragons describe the beast in such a way that it is closer to an ogre than a human.
> That does not mean however that those who say that for most modern Greeks it does _not_ mean "ogre". What with it not being part of the Greek mythology to begin with and people forgetting the old folklore stories, I fear it was inevitable


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