# "το ίδιο καθάρια"



## OssianX

Can somebody explain the grammar here to me?  It's in a line by Ritsos, and followed by the similar "το ίδιο ελεύθερα."  Those look like neuter plural adjectives to me, with "εσώρρουχα" in the previous line as their antecedent.  But το ίδιο obviously doesn't agree.  Is there an idiom I don't know about?  (That would be no surprise!)


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## 7_against_Thebes

"Tο ίδιο" here has the meaning of "as". It's a comparison of equality : "as clear (το ίδιο καθάρια)/ as free (το ίδιο ελεύθερα)"


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## OssianX

Many thanks.  Something (else) my dictionaries wouldn't tell me!  I am so glad to have discovered this forum.


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## OssianX

Funny.  It looks to me as though in this little poem ("ΜΑΤΑΙΩΣΗ" from ΠΑΡΟΔΟΣ) Ritsos uses three different constructions, all of which at least *could* be translated as "as" (το ίδιο [thanks again!], τόσο, and όπως), though maybe there's some better choice:

το ίδιο καθάρια, το ίδιο ελεύθερα, γιατί κανένας δεν ξέρει …
τόσο τυχαία, τόσο άγνωστα, τόσο βαθιά εξηγημένα
όπως η γάτα που περνάει μαλακά στη στέγη του μαιευτηρίου …


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## orthophron

OssianX said:


> το ίδιο καθάρια, το ίδιο ελεύθερα


 equally clear, equally free
"το ίδιο" can be used adverbally meaning "also" or "equally" in relation to something else mentioned before.


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## ireney

OssianX said:


> Funny.  It looks to me as though in this little poem ("ΜΑΤΑΙΩΣΗ" from ΠΑΡΟΔΟΣ) Ritsos uses three different constructions, all of which at least *could* be translated as "as" (το ίδιο [thanks again!], τόσο, and όπως), though maybe there's some better choice:
> 
> το ίδιο καθάρια, το ίδιο ελεύθερα, γιατί κανένας δεν ξέρει …
> τόσο τυχαία, τόσο άγνωστα, τόσο βαθιά εξηγημένα
> όπως η γάτα που περνάει μαλακά στη στέγη του μαιευτηρίου …



Wellll, yes, but then you'd be selling the English language short. 

"το ίδιο" = as *or  *equally or anything like that
"τόσο τυχαία" = as *or  *so or to such a degree perhaps (although I have to admit nothing works as good as "as" or "so")
"όπως" = as  *or  *like or the same way or anything of the kind. 
Admittedly I need to go to bed so brain's not working as it should but I hope you get what I mean.


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## OssianX

If you ever catch me selling the English language short, shoot me.  It's been my life & livelihood.  I'm thinking over the alternatives you mention, and I thank you for confirming that they wouldn't be inaccurate translations.

As always, the problem is a needle-threading one.  I like "equally" for το ίδιο (again, thanks).  But alternatives to "as" for τόσο and όπως get tricky.  I could use "like" in όπως η γάτα, and/or use "so" for τόσο.  If I do, then there's no coordination between the phrases using the former and the phrase using the latter.  ("So luckily … like the cat …" -- unless I'm wrong, the context says that τόσο τυχαία must be adverbial, not adjectival.)  It's tempting to make an English coordinating construction instead: "as luckily … as the cat."  But aside from the fact that that's false parallelism, I don't think it's genuinely there in the Greek.  

So I continue to waver.  But yet again, thank you; it's great to have the context of this well-informed forum in which to think about these questions.


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## orthophron

Hi again OssianX.
It would be of greater help if you cited some more context at the beginning of the text you have already provided, as well as the text missing (...), since it is not clear to me whether καθάρια, ελεύθερα, τυχαία, άγνωστα are adjectives or adverbs.


OssianX said:


> It's tempting to make an English coordinating construction instead: "as luckily … as the cat."


You mean "as accidentally ... as the cat..." (τυχαίος=accidental, τυχερός=lucky). Anyway you're right; it corresponds to the English "as ... as" comparison structure.


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## ireney

Errr, maybe "randomly"?


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## OssianX

Wow, thank you for catching that (τυχαίος vs τυχερός).  I should remember never to trust my memory or attention--though of course that makes learning a bit difficult.  I'll ponder "accidentally" and "randomly," both interesting possibilities here.

I'm a little reluctant to post the whole poem, partly because of limitations on "fair use."  But it's a hard one to excerpt, because it's all one sentence--or rather, punctuated as one sentence, though formally I think it isn't a sentence at all.  Anyway, here it is, entitled ΑΝΕΤΗ ΣΚΟΙΝΟΒΑΣΙΑ:

Edit: Since the issue was resolved and for reasons regarding copyright, the poem was removed.


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## orthophron

OK. Let's try.
... with the washed clothes fluttering on the distant flat roofs - new, coloured underclothes, along with the others, [which are] darned, [but] similarly clean, similarly free/available, because nobody knows whose this house is, who's going to wear these clothes, how (how much) the knee leans/is positioned in relation to the body - more simple/simply,* more simple/-ly, as** random and as strange and as deeply explained, as a cat passing along the roof of the maternity clinic in such an incredibly slow speed, perfectly synchronized with the whole forgotten eternity, with the whole emptiness.

* Still I am not sure if απλά is adjective or adverb. If adjective, I don't know what it refers to. I wonder what is/should be so simple. If adverb, I wonder what is to be done more simply. I also wonder what is so random, strange and deeply explained... Άραγε, τι θέλει να πει ο ποιητής;
** Could be: so (very) random and strange and as deeply explained as the cat ...

Since I have begun to feel I am trying to explain something I myself do not understand, it is time for a break. Isn't it?


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## OssianX

Interesting & useful!  Thanks, orthophron.  I'm pondering the details.

I know poetry better than I know Greek (to say the least).  So the things that you say mystify you are quite different from the things that mystify me.  That's really helpful, for me.


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