# MSA/All dialects: to have just...



## ihsaan

Hi,
I did a search, but couldn't find the usage of "just" that I'm looking for.

How can I say:
"I have just finished reading a book". 
( "Just" doesn't necessarily refer to _right now_, but could just as well refer to something I have done these last few days).


----------



## the-moon-light

Do you mean how to translate it in to Arabic?

In Arabic it will be:



> How can I say:
> "I have just finished reading a book".


 
لقد انتهيتُ لتوي من قراءة الكتاب.


----------



## ihsaan

Thank you! 

(Appologies, I did find a thread on this topic after all. I must have overlooked it the first time I did my search.)


----------



## ihsaan

the-moon-light said:


> لقد انتهيتُ لتوي من قراءة الكتاب.



Is it لتوي or للتو? (The other topic I found said the latter, and I couldn't find the word توي)


----------



## the-moon-light

The original word is *التَّـوُّ* and we say: 
جاء تواً

It means he came imidiatly. And also we say: 
جاء للتو 
It means: he just came.

 للتو is التو+ laam لـ =  it will give us the word للتو

so لــتــوي is: laam + تو + me ي= it will be لتوي

*Ex. I just came. جئـتُ لتوي.*


Source: Lissan Al3arab.لسان العرب


----------



## ihsaan

Thank you. I'm sorry, but I'm somewhat confused why the ي needs to be there (in terms of grammar). Would it be wrong to just write للتو in stead?


----------



## the-moon-light

*لقد انتهيتُ للتو من قراءة الكتاب.*

It's correct.

Why there's "yaa" in لتوي?
Actuly gramaticly I don't know, but we use to say it that way.


----------



## ihsaan

Once again, thank you


----------



## hc_ha

the-moon-light said:


> *لقد انتهيتُ للتو من قراءة الكتاب.*
> 
> It's correct.
> 
> Why there's "yaa" in لتوي?
> Actuly gramaticly I don't know, but we use to say it that way.


 
thanks for coming up with such an amazing word "التو ".
I think your initial answer with ي is correct.
لقد انتهيت لتوي من قراءة كتاب
I have just finished reading a book.

( a book, should be كتاب though) 

I have just finished reading the book
لقد انتهيت لتوي من قراءة الكتاب

************
الياء هنا ضمير متصل في محل جر الإضافة
أي: ضمير متصل مجرور

I have just finished reading a book
لقد انتهيت ُ لتوي من قراءة كتاب

You have just finished reading a book
لقد انتهيتَ لتوك من قراءة كتاب

he has just finished reading a book
لقد انتهى لتوه من قراءة كتاب

we have just come from my parent's home
لقد جئنا لتونا من منزل والدي

*********
توا or للتو , they have the same meaning "immediately/straight away etc" , but different to " لتوي /لتوك/لتوه/لتوها/لتوكما/لتوكم/لتوهم/لتوهن إلخ (just) "

for examples:
I came immediately
جئت توا/ جئت للتو
He came immediately
جاء توا / جاء للتو
we came immediately
جئنا توا/ جئنا للتو

The توا/ للتو (with the meaning of "immediately" ) in the above sample sentences can be replaced by فورا /على الفور

I came immediately
جئت فورا/على الفور


----------



## ihsaan

Thank you. However, gramatically speaking, what is the function of the attached pronoun in your given examples ...I find it strange that it follows  لتو (I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying that I don't really understand the grammatical "argument" for placing it there).


----------



## طالب

With reference to this, how would other dialects express the idea of _having just_ done something, like the EA لسه واكل 'I've just eaten'?

Thanks


----------



## rayloom

In Hijazi Arabic we still use this formation. Another form also commonly used is "doob" + clitic pronoun + active participle
doobi 2aakil, you can also say doobi (or doobani) akalt (I just ate).
doob is also commoly used in Egyptian.

In Najdi and Khaleeji, they usually use "taww" + clitic pronoun + active participle.
tawwini (tawwani) aakil, you can also say tawwini akalt (I just ate)


----------



## Sidjanga

Hi, 

How do you express the "to have just..." idea in PA/Levantine?

I have some adio files with conversations and stuff in Levantine (basically Syrian and PA, I think). 
In one case (which I suppose is in Syria(n), because they use "ليرة" for the currency) a woman is buying things on the market, and when she pays with a note, the vendor asks here if she doesn't have change.

She replies with what sounds like: معيش - إسّا كنت بالبنك

Does something like that make sense in such a context?


----------



## Egyptlover

rayloom said:


> doob is also commoly used in Egyptian.



I think you mean "*yadoob*"  which is usually used to mean something like "barely" in English.


----------



## clevermizo

Sidjanga said:


> Hi,
> 
> How do you express the "to have just..." idea in PA/Levantine?
> 
> I have some adio files with conversations and stuff in Levantine (basically Syrian and PA, I think).
> In one case (which I suppose is in Syria(n), because they use "ليرة" for the currency) a woman is buying things on the market, and when she pays with a note, the vendor asks here if she doesn't have change.
> 
> She replies with what sounds like: معيش - إسّا كنت بالبنك
> 
> Does something like that make sense in such a context?



This was discussed in this thread. إسّا is not a word I'm familiar with, but هسّا (another word for "now" [hallaʔ] هلّق) could probably be used (maybe إسّا is a variant of هسّا).


----------



## elroy

clevermizo said:


> إسّا is not a word I'm familiar with, [...]


 I'm surprised to hear that.   إسّا is _the _word for "now" in Arab Israel (as well as some parts of southern Lebanon).  It is the most obvious shibboleth identifying Arab Israelis, who are often referred to humorously as عرب إسّا by other Palestinians. 

Anyway, to answer the question, yes, إسّا كنت بالبنك would mean "I was just at the bank."  I'm sure that هسّا could be used the same way by people who use that word.


----------



## GoldBug

Moderator's note: Thread merged with previous thread on the same topic. Please remember to search through previous threads before posting a new one!


JUST:

English = *I've just seen him*. OR  *I just saw him. *(I saw him a few {seconds, minutes} ago.)

Castellano = *Acabo de verle*.

Arabic (Gulf) = *Ana gid* (قد )* shufte*.

Is the Arabic correct? At least that's how I've always said it. Does this work in other dialects as well?


----------



## yields

In Moroccan it becomes : أنا عاد شْفْتو - Ana 3ad shftu. 

How about  رأيته لِلتًّو in classical ? Maybe, not sure though.


----------



## Timesieve

Egyptian uses lissa + active participle  لسه + اسم الفاعل

انا لسه شايفه
Ana lissa shayfo


I think this works in Palestinian and perhaps other Levantine varieties?


----------



## TheRiLi

Arabic =

*من شوي بس* شفتو = *men shway bass* sheftu = ..just moment ago..

*من شوي* شفتو = *men shway* sheftu = ..a moment ago..

أنا *دحين* شفته = ana *da7een* sheftuh = ..now.. < just a seconds

*هلأ* شفتو = *Hala2* sheftu = ..now.. < just a seconds

*هلأ بس* شفتو = *hala2 bass* sheftu = ..just now.. < just a bit

شفته *قبل شوي* = sheftuh *gabl shway* = ..shortly before..

*هادا وين* شفتو = *hada ween* sheftu = ..now../..just now.. < before a bit
___

I am not good in geography  ,,


----------



## Schem

GoldBug said:


> *JUST:
> *Arabic (Gulf) = *Ana gid* (قد )* shufte*.


Gid/Kud (قد/كد) is the particle used in Najd and the Gulf to form the past perfect, so your sentence here actually means "I had seen him". For this context, you can use taw توْ which is used in Arabian dialects as well as in MSA (توّي/توْني شايفه).


----------



## SofiaB

Chadi, hassa shouftah or tawa shouftah. for some reason Chadis say ah for him not uh as in some other dialects.


----------



## Finland

Hello!

In Algerian Arabic, one usually hears "hadaouine chouftou" (هاداوين شفتو).

HTH
S


----------



## إسكندراني

SofiaB said:


> for some reason Chadis say ah for him not uh as in some other dialects.


I think this is how libyans say it too. Both have origins in proper Arabic.


----------



## Finland

إسكندراني said:


> I think this is how libyans say it too. Both have origins in proper Arabic.



All dialects do, though!

S


----------



## makandés66

yields said:


> In Moroccan it becomes : أنا عاد شْفْتو - Ana 3ad shftu.
> 
> How about رأيته لِلتًّو in classical ?Maybe, not sure though.



In Morocco, (and please correct me if I err) you can use the negative particle غير with a verb to create the meaning of "just having done something".  انا غير مشيت للسوق I just went to the market.  

I know that "taww" is used in Algeria, because one of my first Arabic memories is of Pontecorvo's film the _The Battle of Algiers _when character Ali La Pointe, says to the FLN messenger boy: 
طو لي بعثوك؟

Anybody? Anybody?


----------



## Finland

Hello!



makandés66 said:


> I know that "taww" is used in Algeria, because one of my first Arabic memories is of Pontecorvo's film the _The Battle of Algiers _when character Ali La Pointe, says to the FLN messenger boy:
> طو لي بعثوك؟



Hmm... Doesn't sound familiar in Algerian, but I may be wrong obviously. Will have to try and listen to that bit if I can find it the film. But anyway, wouldn't it be rather تو than طو?

HTH
S


----------



## makandés66

Yes, my mistake, good luck!


----------



## القرطاجني

In Tunisian, you'd be saying: 
تو كي شفتو 
مازلت كي شفتو 
توا كي شفتو


----------



## yields

makandés66 said:


> In Morocco, (and please correct me if I err) you can use the negative particle غير with a verb to create the meaning of "just having done something".  انا غير مشيت للسوق I just went to the market.


Yes indeed its correct, غير شْفْتو means "just" as in "just having done something" like you said, while what I said earlier (عاد شْفْتو) specifies time only.


----------



## Hemza

makandés66 said:


> In Morocco, (and please correct me if I err) you can use the negative particle غير with a verb to create the meaning of "just having done something".  انا غير مشيت للسوق I just went to the market.



Actually, it's "*لا غير*", but as we swallow vowels/letters , it sounds like " غير". In fact, it means "only"  
It's better to use "3ad" like "3ad mashit lil suq" which is more correct and means "I just went to market".


----------



## Hemza

تو (taww) is also used in Hassania to say "I've just" (unlike in Tunisia and Libya)


----------



## wriight

The word بعد -- which is grossly overloaded in Lebanon, although I don't know if it's in the same situation across the whole Levant -- can hold this meaning. Here, بعدني قاريه == I've just read it.

I say "grossly overloaded" because it can also mean "still", e.g. بعدني عم اقراه _I'm still reading it_. These are normally distinct, yes, but when used with a stative participle[1] the distinction disappears -- consider this one joke that starts with حمصي بعدو متجوز, which is intended to be parsed as "a Homsi who's _just_ married" but is also perfectly readable as "a Homsi who's _still_ married".

EDIT: there's also بعدني عم قلك -> _I was just now telling you_, used as a discourse marker; note that it's not "I'm still telling you".

To disambiguate, you can introduce هلق as in بعدني هلق قاريه -- but that of course doesn't extend to an event that _didn't_ happen هلق/إسا such as the joke retelling of the just-married Homsi. This means that, AFAIK, حمصي بعدو متجوز is doomed to keeping its double-meaning because there's no better way to word it. مصيبة 

EDIT: did NOT proofread, ouch. I mentioned إسا قاريه but on second look-over I'm 99.999% sure that's nonsensical... anyway, to sum up the "issue": it's that بعد can be used on _any_ participle to impart the meaning of "have just", e.g. بعدنا كاتبين..., and this works fine most of the time because most participle forms are unambiguously past-perfect verbs. That is, they correspond to English "have [done]". There are some participles (the exact specifications of which is absolutely lost on me), however, which _also_ hold a present-continuous meaning: this creates ambiguity with بعد, because it can also impart the meaning of "still" when used on a present-continuous verb phrase, and in the case of these double-timing participles there's no real way to tell which without the additional introduction of هلق.
This is still grossly oversimplified and I've got exceptions coming out the ears. I'd love for someone who knows what they're talking about to come and lay down all the rules :S

[1] I'll admit I don't really know what I'm talking about here. I _think_ the distinction is between stative/dynamic verbs, but I'm not sure. What I'm referring to is the participles that can also be used to express the present continuous, e.g. جايي, which AFAICT are stative(?).

Mark Cowell's _A Reference Grammar of Syrian Arabic_ makes note of these 'translocative' verbs ("verbs having to do with going, coming, etc. to and from places"), and seemingly also calls them 'antecedent-state participles' before mentioning that 'verbs with an inceptive aspect' also have this property... a lot of it goes over my head. Discussion of this could honestly go into a whole new thread lol

Point of note, btw: إسا comes from الساعة, لسا comes from للساعة, هسا comes from هذه الساعة.


----------



## elroy

In Palestinian Arabic, there's no ambiguity:

بعدني هلأ قاري/قارئ: I just read 
بعدني قاري/قارئ: "I'm still in a state of having read" [semantically nonsensical; if you've read something, you will always be in a state of having read it, so "still" doesn't make sense!]
بعدني عم بقرأ: I'm still reading
حمصي بعده متجوز: a Homsi who's still married
حمصي بعده هلأ متجوز: a Homsi who just got married


----------



## lena55313

Hi, can I ask in this thread?
There is a sentence: إِنِّي ذَاهِبٌ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ توّي Could this مِنْ توّي mean_ immediately, right now_? Or it should be strictly with the li - لتوي , and the توّي here means something else, maybe the place, like the name of a town or a village?
Thank you in advance.


----------



## momai

elroy said:


> حمصي بعده متجوز: a Homsi who's still married
> حمصي بعده هلأ متجوز: a Homsi who just got married


In Syrian, we also don't have this ambiguity :
حمصي لساتو متجوز: a Homsi who's still married
حمصي هلقتو متجوز: a Homsi who just got married

I have just finished reading a book: لسا شي مخلص قراية كتاب


----------



## analeeh

momai said:


> In Syrian, we also don't have this ambiguity :
> حمصي لساتو متجوز: a Homsi who's still married
> حمصي هلقتو متجوز: a Homsi who just got married
> 
> I have just finished reading a book: لسا شي مخلص قراية كتاب



These are very northwestern!

Some Syrians (Damascenes?) do use بعد and لساتـ plus participle to mean 'have just Xed'. I don't know how widespread this is though.


----------



## tounsi51

In Tunisian Arabic

1. مازال كي 
2. توّ


----------

