# What do the Japanese think of "irregular" language?



## John_Doe

Hello!
Long time no see!

Maybe "irregular" isn't the right word, but let me clarify. My question is twofold:

1. How does the Kansai dialect sound to Japanese people from other prefectures? I mean, does it sound funny, overly informal, or the way some rural boor may speak, or just unusual to hear etc. If you happen to be a kansaijin, how does the standard language sound to you?
2. Anime-speak. There are female anime characters who, say, abuse "desu", posing it even after verbs (私はここにすんでいるです; 逃げてです; etc). I thought it's considered cute, but when I asked my Japanese tutor about that, she said me it's a strange, artificial way to express yourself. Machine-like, she said. So I got a little suspicious about the whole kawaii part. Your opinion?


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## patates_frites

My impression:
1. Kansai dialect can be divided vaguely into Kyoto-centered and Osaka-centered dialect but the youth dialect is overall slanting toward the latter, or at least many people have Osaka-dialect in mind when they say Kansai-dialect. There is however two types of osaka-ben for the general public outside of kansai (like me). One is simplified and the other is authentic. The former is often used in TV and a sort of diluted version. The latter is what you hear in the local kansai area. The latter can be diluted as well due to TV influence. The overall impression is they sound suitable for a convivial, witty/funny, and frank talks, not necessarily just by the dialect itself but the mentality of kansai people who have a developed sense of the repartie and wit. At times they may sound rough or raw, but overall the reception is positive. The impression of Kyoto dialects on the other hand can range from cute (if spoken by girls) to circumvented more due to the Kyoto tendency to not say things in what we from outside deem straightforward.
2. The use of -desu instead of -masu, or the abusive addition of -desu to phrases usually ending with -masu in certain anime is artificial because unusual and can either sound cute or phony depending on how the listener feels about subculturally invented phrasing pattern. That said, the modern Japanese language is not completely consistent about their use of -desu -masu and the tradition is fairly recent (post-Meiji). So the anime or sub-culture innovative language phrasing can be a good occasion to re-think Japanese. However, most people don't think of it like that. It's generally cute or not too far from a convential or used-to-be conventional expression, thus easily understandable, and an artifact to add originality to that character.


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## duomoduomo

Hi, John.
1. I’m from the Tohoku district. The Kansai dialect sounds funny and informal to me, maybe because almost all the Kansai dialect experiences are from TV entertainment shows. But when the dialect spoken in some heartwarming dramas, it sounds warmer than the standard Japanese. It depends.

2. Your kawaii sense is right. It might be true the imperfect speech like that has a machine like effect and sounds strange, but especially in Anime, I believe, it’s used to express ‘kawaii’. In a way, it’s similar to speaking of a child, who can’t speak perfectly but does his best to speak properly.


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## John_Doe

Thank you both. Your posts are quite informative.



> 1. Kansai dialect can be divided vaguely into Kyoto-centered and  Osaka-centered dialect but the youth dialect is overall slanting toward  the latter, or at least many people have Osaka-dialect in mind when they  say Kansai-dialect. There is however two types of osaka-ben for the  general public outside of kansai (like me). One is simplified and the  other is authentic.



While we are at it, could you say which dialects other than that of Kansai are worth knowing of? In terms of media coverage (doramas, anime, films, etc), I mean.


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## duomoduomo

I’d say knowing of Kansai dialect is enough to cover your curiosity, since Osaka and Tokyo are two big cultural centers in Japan. Hang in there!


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## nagoyano

[1] Some people do feel that the Kansai dialect sounds funny.
In my opinion, it sounds funny, not for the sound itself but for the contents of the conversation.
It is a general reputation that Kansai people always to have fun and like to say funny things.
Actually, many famous comedians are from the Kansai region.

[2] As for grammatically erroneous manner of speech, I do not care too much.
Some rigorous people get angry with it: "that's pollution of language!".
I think that they are too strict and narrow-minded.
We need to master the standard language for smooth communication.
However, the standard is just one of the styles of Japanese speech.
As you know well, Japanese has an enormous variety of dialects.
Sticking to only one style does not make us happy.


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## Tonky

1. As my dialect is rather closer to that of Kansai, I find it more homey, relaxed and secure than being surrounded by Tokyo dialect speakers. However, we try to avoid dialects as much as possible in business, even though we cannot easily change our accents. The *normal* biased impression towards Tokyo dialects from western Japan is probably that it sounds more business-like and sometimes somewhat snobbish, and also "less masculine".

2. What you are referring to is called "役割語/role language", and the immature girly talk is as artificial, as in "made-up" or "fiction", as that of old men in anime/manga. The difference is that some children do get influenced by such speech and they try to mimic it in real life, while old men in real life would never grow to speak like an old professor in anime when they get older, unless they grow up in certain areas where their dialect is somewhat similar. Some young people seem to try and find their "identities" by using certain speech styles, whether it succeeds or not.

As for Kawaii-ness, you can put some thoughts on how some English speakers find the chat style using "1337" or "how r u?" typing. Some find it "kewl" while others do not. I think every language has the equivalents of such controversial speech styles.


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## patates_frites

John_Doe said:


> Thank you both. Your posts are quite informative.
> 
> While we are at it, could you say which dialects other than that of Kansai are worth knowing of? In terms of media coverage (doramas, anime, films, etc), I mean.



The question is rather which dialect is not worth knowing! : ) 

In terms of media coverage, I personally am not aware what's often used else than Kansai-ben.
If I were to guess perhaps Nagoya-ben, Shimane-ben, Nagasaki-ben, Kagoshima-ben, Tosa-ben, etc.

Perhaps you'll fall in love with one of them. Check them out yourself if you're interested.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/日本語の方言


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## patates_frites

John_Doe said:


> Hello!
> Long time no see!
> 
> Maybe "irregular" isn't the right word, but let me clarify. My question is twofold:
> 
> 1. How does the Kansai dialect sound to Japanese people from other prefectures? I mean, does it sound funny, overly informal, or the way some rural boor may speak, or just unusual to hear etc. If you happen to be a kansaijin, how does the standard language sound to you?
> 2. Anime-speak. There are female anime characters who, say, abuse "desu", posing it even after verbs (私はここにすんでいるです; 逃げてです; etc). I thought it's considered cute, but when I asked my Japanese tutor about that, she said me it's a strange, artificial way to express yourself. Machine-like, she said. So I got a little suspicious about the whole kawaii part. Your opinion?



Anime-speak can stem from ignorance of structure for the sake of effect, or an acceptable variation or evolution, or an interesting experiment.
Most common Japanese speakers don't realize the artificial nature of modern day standard Japanese.
Once you are more aware of it, perhaps you can explore the various alternative to it, and see what better evolution it can make, because it could be better, and richer.
Here's a quick link to see the evolution of desu/masu. There are plenty to read in the field.
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1439339919
http://japanese.hix05.com/Language_1/lang117.desu.html
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/歴史的仮名遣


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## patates_frites

John_Doe said:


> Thank you both. Your posts are quite informative.
> 
> While we are at it, could you say which dialects other than that of Kansai are worth knowing of? In terms of media coverage (doramas, anime, films, etc), I mean.



If you look at these lists of love confessions made in the various dialects, you can see osaka-ben is probably one of the least appealing, or rather that other dialects are amazingly charming.

■キュンとする方言告白
http://matome.naver.jp/odai/2129481360938787301
http://woman.mynavi.jp/article/130816-087/
http://ddnavi.com/news/163555/

In the end I don't know what you want to do with your knowledge of Japanese dialects impressions, but I think it's perhaps most interesting to discover them yourself, and find the ones you find attractive, and interesting. Kansai used to be the center of Japan before. They are in a sense as boring as Tokyo-dialect that was designated and transformed into the standard language. The other "peripheral" dialects deserve much more attention and love than what they tend to get. I hope the recent regionalism movement will go beyond mascots and vague sense of attachments.


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