# castizo



## samarkanda

Hello.

I'm trying to find a way to say "castizo" in English, but the translations in the WR dictionary are not quite what I'm looking for.

Terms like "pure" or "authentic" miss the negative nuance that "castizo" has in the text I am translating. I will use "old and traditional" if I can't find anything more specific, but thought I'd ask here for ideas!

Thank you.


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## MarlyK

Can you provide context?


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## samarkanda

Hello MarlyK.

The context is a decoration proposal: "La propuesta tiene una imagen más castiza y algo pasado de moda que no conecta con los clientes".

So far I have: "The proposal has an old and traditional image, somewhat out of fashion, that does not connect with the customers".


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## kalamazoo

outdated? old-fashioned?


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## MarlyK

How about "*fusty*"?

*fus•ty*(ˈfʌs ti) 

_adj. -ti•er, -ti•est.1. having a stale smell.
2. old-fashioned; out-of-date.
*3. stubbornly conservative; fogyish.
*_


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## Raquel8

Qué tal antiquated?


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## kalamazoo

I would avoid "conservative" "fogyish" and "antiquated."  I would recommend "a traditional and somewhat outdated image that does not connect with..."


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## samarkanda

Thank you all for the ideas, I was stuck and there are so many options! I did some research with these ideas and thought fogyish / fogey might work. 

Kalamazoo, why do you say you would avoid this term?


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## MarlyK

"Fogeyish" has the connotation of something that only old people might like. My suggestion was "fusty" which is a wee bit different, it's still outdated, but it also connotes someone who's "rigidly old-fashioned" and fastidious.


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## kalamazoo

"fogyish" is an odd word, not used that much, and mostly in the context of describing a person or a person's behavior. It would be a strange choice of word for a native speaker and it is rarely used in everyday speech.


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## kalamazoo

I would not recommend "fusty" either.  I seem to be the only native speaker on here at the moment!  Just because a dictionary definition seems appropriate doesn't mean that the word is a good choice.


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## MarlyK

kalamazoo said:


> I would not recommend "fusty" either.  I seem to be the only native speaker on here at the moment!  Just because a dictionary definition seems appropriate doesn't mean that the word is a good choice.



I've lived in NY since the age of 9, kalamazoo. And I do think that "fusty" is fine in a journalistic or literary context. No, you're right, it's not a word that people might use in the course of normal conversation, but I don't find it that unusual in articles, essays, etc. Maybe the best question is: Who's the reader, samarkanda? Is this aimed for a more informal setting or is this a journalistic article?


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## kalamazoo

I didn't mean to insult you, but I do think "fusty" would not be a good choice in this context.  It's not a very common word, and I think there needs to be a special reason to choose an uncommon word. I also think a lot of people wouldn't even really know what fusty meant!


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## samarkanda

Many thanks for your input, this is the best thing about this forum, you can get to know if a work actually works or not beyond the dictionary definition! (MarlyK, I think you may as well list English as your native language too!).

I must say I liked _fusty_ or _fogey_ because I thought they might say a bit more than the more neutral _old-fashioned_ or _antiquated_. Do you think stale could work here? Or something along these lines...


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## MarlyK

kalamazoo said:


> I didn't mean to insult you, but I do think "fusty" would not be a good choice in this context.  It's not a very common word, and I think there needs to be a special reason to choose an uncommon word. I also think a lot of people wouldn't even really know what fusty meant!



Really? I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm genuinely surprised that it's that uncommon and that people may not know what it means... Maybe it's a generational thing. [Shrug] It's good to know. 

Samarkand, "stale" is good, but it lacks that "old establishment" flavor that castizo connotes. Pero supongo que puedes decir "a stale and traditional image that..."


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## micafe

I don't understand. Are you talking about the word *"castizo"*? Where does it say it means "old fashioned" or "antiquated"? 

*castizo**, za**.*
 (De or. inc.; cf. lat. _*casticĕus_,  esp. _casta_).
* 1.* adj. De buen origen y casta.
* 2.* adj. Típico, puro, genuino de cualquier país, región o localidad.
* 3.* adj. Dicho del lenguaje: Puro y sin mezcla de voces ni giros extraños.
* 4.* adj. Dicho de un animal: Muy prolífico.
* 5.* adj._ Par._ Dicho de un hombre: Muy prolífico.
Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados


I know it's not a very commonly used word but I do use it when talking about the language: "Esta palabra es muy castiza" meaning it's "good Spanish".

I think in the original sentence they misused the word.


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## kalamazoo

"fusty" actually to a large extent suggests  or implies things like dust and mold. So a "fusty" hotel, for example, suggests an old place that not much fresh air gets into and that smells kind of funny.  In Google I found about 500,000 hits for "fusty" and over 60 million for outdated.  If someone told me that an image was 'fusty' I would wonder what the person was actually trying to say.  You can check the Google hits (many of which are to definitions) to see usages.


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## MarlyK

kalamazoo said:


> "fusty" actually to a large extent suggests  or implies things like dust and mold. So a "fusty" hotel, for example, suggests an old place that not much fresh air gets into and that smells kind of funny.  In Google I found about 500,000 hits for "fusty" and over 60 million for outdated.  If someone told me that an image was 'fusty' I would wonder what the person was actually trying to say.  You can check the Google hits (many of which are to definitions) to see usages.



Yes, it could mean moldy due to old age or dusty. However, that is not the only use of it; here are some uses of "fusty" in the New York Times for the past 12 months: http://query.nytimes.com/search/sitesearch/#/fusty/365days/. However, if there is so much confusion about the word, then "stale' might work for Samarkand in this context.


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## scotu

Why not simply "*old fashioned*"?  In these days this has a slightly negative but "pure" connotation.

A degree more negative would be "antiquated".


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## samarkanda

micafe,

Indeed _castizo_ means old-fashioned, but in the original context (and very often in Spain) it has an added meaning of something that is closed and away from modernity, also someting that is inextricably Spanish. To me it conjures dust, strong smells, lack of interest for what's happening in other places, even a hint of bigotry. This of course is not a formal definition for the word, but it does convey some of these elements to me.


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## kalamazoo

I think the word 'fusty' is somewhat literary.  In many of the NY Times examples, it is used in conjunction with another word like "venerable" or "Victorian" or some other kind of context which makes it pretty clear to the reader what the idea is.  As a stand-alone word, it's not that common and I don't think it is a very good choice.


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## micafe

samarkanda said:


> micafe,
> 
> Indeed _castizo_ means old-fashioned, but in the original context (and very often in Spain) it has an added meaning of something that is closed and away from modernity, also someting that is inextricably Spanish. To me it conjures dust, strong smells, lack of interest for what's happening in other places, even a hint of bigotry. This of course is not a formal definition for the word, but it does convey some of these elements to me.



My point was that "castizo" does not mean old-fashioned. It's not really important...


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## MarlyK

Bueno, creo que todos hemos aprendido un montón.


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## scotu

Of course we read it (and like most of your posts it was a useful contribution to the thread).... but we have been responding to this additional challenge from the OP:  "





> "La propuesta tiene una imagen más castiza y algo *pasado de moda* que no conecta con los clientes".


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## abb1025

What about stodgy? One of its meanings is "extremely old-fashioned."


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## autrex2811

samarkanda said:


> Hello.
> 
> I'm trying to find a way to say "castizo" in English, but the translations in the WR dictionary are not quite what I'm looking for.
> 
> Terms like "pure" or "authentic" miss the negative nuance that "castizo" has in the text I am translating. I will use "old and traditional" if I can't find anything more specific, but thought I'd ask here for ideas!
> 
> Thank you.



Buen día. Un comentario mío algo ajeno a su traducción. Para mí castizo no es "ni viejo ni tradicional", sino más bien "con tendencia a puro". No digo que su acepción esté mal, sólo es un pequeño paréntesis.

Saludos.


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## micafe

autrex2811 said:


> Buen día. Un comentario mío algo ajeno a su traducción. Para mí castizo no es "ni viejo ni tradicional", sino más bien "con tendencia a puro". No digo que su acepción esté mal, sólo es un pequeño paréntesis.
> 
> Saludos.



Just as I said.


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## Omada

samarkanda said:


> micafe,
> 
> Indeed _castizo_ means old-fashioned, but in the original context (and very often in Spain) it has an added meaning of something that is closed and away from modernity, also someting that is inextricably Spanish. To me it conjures dust, strong smells, lack of interest for what's happening in other places, even a hint of bigotry. This of course is not a formal definition for the word, but it does convey some of these elements to me.



Yo estoy de acuerdo con Micafé, para mí la palabra "castizo" tampoco tiene ese significado, ni todas esas connotaciones, ni el diccionario tampoco. Es posible que el autor de ese texto use esa palabra con ese sentido, y que uno pueda pensar que lo "castizo" o lo "folclórico" está pasado de moda, o que lo esté de hecho, pero no cambia el significado de la palabra.


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## duvija

highfallutin' ??? 
(primero pensé en 'folksy' pero 'castizo' es más bien 'de buena calidad/de tradición/tradicional')


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## kalamazoo

As to the English translation, I think it would be easier to figure out the best word to use if the OP could give a few more details about what is wrong with the image.


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## samarkanda

¡Qué curioso! Para mí desde luego puede tener estas connotaciones. No necesariamente, se puede usar simplemente para referirse a algo tradicional, pero te aseguro que yo lo he oído en situaciones en las que es casi sinónimo de rancio o casposo, y creo que es el sentido en el que se utilizaba en el texto que estoy traduciendo, de ahí este hilo. ¡Y lo que ha dado de sí!

By the way, kalamazoo, there is nothing "wrong" with the image, but the text is about people's opinions of it and what certain pictures say to them. In this particular case, they are clearly opposing it to another one wich is fresh and contemporary. I'm still undecided as to how I will translate it, but maybe I'll just settle for old-fashioned since I am concerned futsy may not be widely understood.

Muchas gracias a todos los que habéis participado, como dice MarlyK, todos hemos aprendido mucho.


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## EddieZumac

"Castizo" is to Spain as All American is to USA.


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## Trakker

The only negative nuance I can see in your sentence is: "algo pasado de moda".  In what refers to "castizo" there doesn't seem to be any negative nuance there, so your translation "old and traditional image" I find it very adequate.


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## merquiades

samarkanda said:


> Hello MarlyK.
> 
> The context is a decoration proposal: "La propuesta tiene una imagen más castiza y algo pasado de moda que no conecta con los clientes".
> 
> So far I have: "The proposal has an old and traditional image, somewhat out of fashion, that does not connect with the customers".



The proposal has a rather conventional image that is somewhat out of date and might not connect with clients.

The proposal has a rather classical image, now somewhat antiquated, and may no longer connect with clients.


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## kalamazoo

I would also suggest "a more traditional but somewhat dated image that might not connect with clients"


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## micafe

EddieZumac said:


> "Castizo" is to Spain as All American is to USA.


You've got a point there


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## Nipnip

EddieZumac said:


> "Castizo" is to Spain as All American is to USA.



Agreed. Now, the point is that being "All American" (castizo for Spain) is in this context not a desirable quality. Traditional, pure, peculiar to, typical of: all these qualities but seen as negative against modernization or cosmopolitanism.


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## micafe

Nipnip said:


> Agreed. Now, the point is that being "All American" (castizo for Spain) is in this context not a desirable quality. Traditional, pure, peculiar to, typical of: all these qualities but seen as negative against modernization or cosmopolitanism.


Yes. Maybe it's just too "castizo" to meet the requirements of the clients... It can happen, maybe they don't like traditional stuff.. But then, we cannot translate "too castizo" as "too all American"


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## Abyssland

Hello to everybody!

I'm a castizo! Why? Because I was born in Madrid. Let me explain a little bit. Some decades ago, in the 30's 40's 50's... there was a kind of "invented" language commonly used in Madrid. As far as I know it was mixed with some kind of gypsy words. The structure of the language was absolutely Spanish but all the words were changed. Let me give you a couple of examples: peluco - reloj (watch), pinrel - pie (foot), afanar - robar (to steal)... It was really complicated to understand and people of my age (round 40's) we just got to know a couple of those words but never really got the language. In fact, if there's an old movie when there are people speaking like that, it usually has subtitles. Well, that's for us "hablar en castizo" which means to speak in that old-fashion style. Another point is when there is a feast day like "La Paloma" or "San Isidro", some people dress up in that old-fashion style (theyr'e called "chulapos") and meet up to dance by the river (you know, traditions). Those fest-days are said to be "las fiestas más castizas de Madrid" Do you know what I mean? And in Spain, as every area has its own identity, if you use here the word "castizo" it would bring you to mind not only an old-fashion thing or even kind of "authentic" as has been said here, but also something realated to Madrid (which, by the way, was known in "castizo-style" as "El Foro") 

Hope it helps


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## Keahi

Hola.
Y para agregar más leña al fuego, en América al menos en Perú la palabra se conoce pero es obsoleta y quería decir hijo de español (casto o puro) y mestizo (hijo de español e indio).
Como ven "castizo" por esos lares no es puro.
Y como tengo que sugerir acerca de la pregunta inicial, lo haré interpretando la frase que has puesto Samarkanda.
Primero has dicho "castizo", en un sentido de típico o soso, según lo he interpretado y luego pasado de moda, entonces para "castiza", yo te sugiero, De estilo conservador, "_Conservative style_" y luego pasado de moda, y voy a  agregar uno a los que ya te han mencionado, "_Bygone style_".
En fotografía de arquitectura se usa mucho pero no sé si encajará en el tema de ropas.
Un abrazo.


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## donbeto

Disculpe si ya mencionado (este hilo es tan largo). pero sugiero "*quaint*". No tiene sentido mal.


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## EddieZumac

micafe said:


> You've got a point there


Thanks for supporting me, micafe. I really appreciate it, especially from you.
It seems that others here don't get my point, but instead are looking for "trés pies al gato" for the word castizo.


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## EddieZumac

donbeto said:


> Disculpe si ya mencionado (este hilo es tan largo). pero sugiero "*quaint*". No tiene sentido mal.


Sorry Donbeto, but "quaint" just doesn't cut the mustard for a translation for "castizo".


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## kalamazoo

I think it would be easier to figure out a good English translation if we could understand better what the problem with the image is.  "Quaint" would apply in some cases, but not in others.  And so on.  Is this an image that depicts an activity that is no longer carried out? Is this an image drawn in a style that suggests newspaper ads from 1940?  Does it show people dressed in a style that is uncommon today? What is it about this image that is turning some clients off?


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## micafe

I think this will be my last post since it seems we all understand "castizo" in different ways and we'll never agree..

What I understand, the meaning of "castizo" is more or less this:

  Proper, appropriate, respectable, correct, decorous, right, seemly, precise.


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## EddieZumac

I spoke to my relatives in Bilbao today. I asked them what they thought that the word "castizo" meant.
They said: "De buena procedencia. Es un término que se usa casi exclusivamente para referirse a asuntos de Madrid. No dirías nunca 'Una sevillana muy castiza'".


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## EddieZumac

micafe said:


> I think this will be my last post since it seems we all understand "castizo" in different ways and we'll never agree..
> 
> What I understand the meaning of "castizo" is more or less this:
> 
> Proper, appropriate, respectable, correct, decorous, right, seemly, precise.


Your list of meanings for "castizo" is very good.
All that's missing is the relationship with Madrid.


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## micafe

EddieZumac said:


> I spoke to my relatives in Bilbao today. I asked them what they thought that the word "castizo" meant.
> They said: "De buena procedencia. Es un término que se usa casi exclusivamente para referirse a asuntos de Madrid. No dirías nunca 'Una sevillana muy castiza'".



Didn't they tell you it refers to proper* Castilian* language also? (AKA Spanish)


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## EddieZumac

micafe said:


> Didn't they tell you it refers to proper* Castilian* language also? (AKA Spanish)


Yes, as a matter of fact, they did mention "of the Castille region", but mostly Madrid.


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