# Norwegian: død og pine



## MaddieClark

Hi everyone, I'm a doctoral student writing about _A Doll's House_ by Ibsen. At one point, Nora says she would like to say, "død og pine" to her husband. 

One translation says she means "To hell with everything!" but I found an online translation into French which reads, "Mince alors," which is a much milder oath. I looked up each word and it seems to mean, literally "dead and rack." 

What does this idiom mean? How strong is this oath?


Please, any help would be appreciated!!!! Thanks. Maddie Clark


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## Beren

Het MaddieClark, and welcome 

A literal translation could be:
death and agony
death and pain
death and torture
death and rack

..depending on how you decide to translate "pine".

It's not very commonly used in modern norwegian, and hard to translate to english without the full context.


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## Spectre scolaire

It is not a very strong curse, in fact only a kind of interjection – but it has a religious nuance the strength of which may depend on the context, and indeed on time and space. Remember that the origin of the expression is “Kristi død og pine” which is heavy enough to ejaculate for a humble worshiper like Nora.  Hence her reluctance to say it in the first place.

In today’s Danish it has clearly lost its full strength as a religious curse – and Ibsen wrote in Danish, more or less...  As to the Norwegian version of the “curse”, pinadø would be the corresponding term as far as _usage_ is concerned. 

Have a look at http://www.ibsensregine.com/Vidunderlige.html (containing a passage about ‘Død og pine’), and about Ibsen’s _symbolism_ which permeates all his plays, one should consult the never-too-old pearl of a book _Symbolikken i Ibsens skuespill_ by Arne Duve, Oslo 1945. 
 ​


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## Andreas_Jensen

I clearly don't get the original meaning, since Nora would like to say this to her husband... Today, in modern Danish at least, "død og pine!" is used (very rarely, if at all) as an exclamation when something goes really bad... For example... 

Messenger: "Mr. Fogh Rasmussen... The Storebælt Bridge has just collapsed into the sea"

Anders Fogh Rasmussen: "DØD OG PINE!!!"

The above shouldn't be taken too seriously as no-one really says this nowadays


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## MaddieClark

I've seen it translated into as "To hell with everything" or "Well, I’m damned!" I just wonder if it really is that strong; is she being very rebelious here?  Here's the context: Nora is telling her two friends what she would like to say to her husband.  Thanks again for the other feedback, which I see has posted since I first wrote this response.  I appreciate your time!

*NORA.* Der er noe som jeg hadde en så umåtelig lyst til å si så Torvald hørte på det. 
*RANK.* Og hvorfor kan De så ikke si det? 
*NORA.* Nei, det tør jeg ikke, for det er så stygt. 
*FRU LINDE.* Stygt? 
*RANK.* Ja, da er det ikke rådelig. Men til oss kan De jo nok -. Hva er det De har sånn lyst til å si så Helmer hører på det? 
*NORA.* Jeg har en sånn umåtelig lyst til å si: død og pine. 
*RANK.* Er De gal! 
*FRU LINDE.* Men bevares, Nora -! *RANK.* Si det. Der er han.


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## MaddieClark

Hi, sorry to be long winded, but Spectre Scolaire, your comment made me wonder: isn't Doll's House written in Norwegian and not Danish? I feel I'm revealing my ignorance here! But I'm writing about the impact of the play on the European and North American public and I want to make sure that my translations best serve Ibsen's meaning. 

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.


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## Beren

MaddieClark said:


> isn't Doll's House written in Norwegian and not Danish?



The standard written norwegian at the time was very similar to danish, due to Norway having been reigned by Denmark for quite some years.


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## Spectre scolaire

Andreas_Jensen said:
			
		

> Today, in modern Danish at least, "død og pine!" is used (very rarely, if at all) as an exclamation when something goes really bad...


 You may be right – today.  My impression dating from more than 20 years back does not quite correspond to your assessment, and I think your “anecdote” could have been far less disastrous and still contain our interjection/exclamation. 

Actually, I don’t think ‘Død og pine’ “requires” a disaster at all...

The following two ex. are taken from Jysk Ordbog s.v. død:

Død og pine, går det sådan til.

Det går død og pine nok i vor tid. (pronounced _døpen_ – not found in Norwegian)

French _mince alors!_ is in fact a good translation. Remember that “_mince_ is also a euphemism of _merde_. If a pupil in a French school class says “_mince_ alors! [I forgot the book!]”, nobody would react – except for his obliviousness. But if he replaces _mince_ with _merde_, an immediate reaction from the teacher is likely to occur. 

‘Død og pine’ in Ibsen does not reflect today’s usage. But judging from Nora’s reaction _to her own inclination to say something obnoxious_, it may as well correspond to _Andreas_Jensen_’s disaster scenario usage – _for purely religious reasons_. Only, in today’s society originally blasphemous expressions are not being felt as such. Quite another matter is whether the expression itself has fallen into disuse, at least among younger people. 




			
				MaddieClark said:
			
		

> Isn't Doll's House written in Norwegian and not Danish?


 Ludvig Holberg (1684-1754) wrote in the conventional language of his days, and so did Henrik Wergeland (1808-1845) and Henrik Ibsen (1828-1906). Their _floruit_ was long before any standardization of _Norwegian_ came about, in *1907* to be exact, two years after Norway became (totally) independent.

–But didn’t they have, pinadø, any Norwegian language before that?  

As the mentioned authors were all Norwegians – _considered to be_, especially by Norwegians , Ludvig Holberg being “the founder of Modern _Danish_ literature” (Wikipedia) – they definitely interspersed, to various degrees, their writings with local linguistic colour. However, to postulate a “standard written [N]orwegian” at the time when Ibsen wrote his ‘Doll’s House’ (1879) – like _Beren_ seems to be doing – may not be quite correct historically.
 ​


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## MaddieClark

Thanks so much!  I really get a sense of the phrase now.   

Here's my final question, about which I should have been more explicit originally:

I wanted to use this line, død og pine, as part of my chapter title because I feel like it's indicative of the changes she is undergoing.  But since few people (including me!) speak Norwegian who will read this chapter, I have to do a translation.  

Is "To hell with everything" an accepable/faithful translation into English?

Again, your input and time is greatly appreciated.


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## Tjahzi

Hm, personally, I would say that "To hell with everything" is too emotionally loaded to serve as a fully satisfying translation of "Död och pina" (the corresponding, identical, Swedish expression). Whereas the emotional implication of "To hell with everything" leans towards rage of the speaker, "Död och pina" would rather be used, as exemplified by Andreas_Jensen below, to express consternation, although they are both used to express strong dissatisfaction.

That said, I'm not 100% sure this (Swedish based) interpretation goes for Noregian/Danish as well, although previous posts more or less indicate that's the case. Also, we should not forget that 125~ (?) years have passed since the play in question was written. It's not at all unlikely that the connotation might have changed.

Also, I'm, so far, incapable of finding any "fully satisfying" satisfying substitute for the expression in question, so I suppose that you, at least for now, should stick with "To hell with everything". I'll stay on the case though.


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