# caught between a rock and a hard place



## aridra

Hello!
Is there a French equivalent to the English expression "To choose between a rock and a hard place" to indicate having to choose between two equally difficult options?
Thanks in advance.


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## zaby

Hello,

We have "Choisir entre la peste et le choléra. "
("To choose between plague and cholera" yuh  )


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## Cavatine

We have an expression coming from Corneille's theater: "un choix cornélien", a hard choice above all between feelings and reason. 

Hope it helps


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## edwingill

i thought the expression is:*caught* between a rock and a hard place pris entre le marteau et l'enclume


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## DearPrudence

edwingill said:
			
		

> i thought the expression is: *caught* between a rock and a hard place pris entre le marteau et l'enclume


 
I'm not a native English-speaker but I had never heard 'choose ...' either.
*être entre le marteau et l'enclume = to be between the devil and the deep blue sea*, isn't it? I'm getting lost.


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## aridra

edwingill said:
			
		

> i thought the expression is:*caught* between a rock and a hard place pris entre le marteau et l'enclume


 
oops!! Of course you are correct   Excuse my senility  

Thanks to the others for the help.


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## edwingill

DearPrudence said:
			
		

> I'm not a native English-speaker but I had never heard 'choose ...' either.
> *être entre le marteau et l'enclume = to be between the devil and the deep blue sea*, isn't it? I'm getting lost.


what is the difference between *to be between the devil and the deep blue sea* and *caught between a rock and a hard place?*


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## marget

For me, the only difference is that you* are* in one spot and you're *caught *in the other...Ha!  I suspect that Americans, maybe especially younger ones,  would prefer the rock and the hard place.  I think they would be more familiar with it.  It's just a guess.


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## DearPrudence

edwingill said:
			
		

> what is the difference between *to be between the devil and the deep blue sea* and *caught between a rock and a hard place?*


 
Thanks, I've just realized that I had always misunderstood the French expression.. I didn't have the impression it had anything to do with a dilemma but just with a difficult and dangerous situation. I'll try to sort that out.


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## zaby

DearPrudence said:
			
		

> Thanks, I've just realized that I had always misunderstood the French expression.. I didn't have the impression it had anything to do with a dilemma but just with a difficult and dangerous situation. I'll try to sort that out.


I don't think you misunderstood the French expression. I understand it like you and we're not alone : I googled it and found only contexts where it does mean that.
Actually, physically been between the hammer and the anvil is not a situation where you have (even poor) choice. It hurts


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## DearPrudence

zaby said:
			
		

> I don't think you misunderstood the French expression. I understand it like you and we're not alone : I googled it and found only contexts where it does mean that.
> Actually, physically been between the hammer and the anvil is not a situation where you have (even poor) choice. It hurts


 
So, 'être entre l'enclume et le marteau' wouldn't be a good translation then?
In my dictionary I have: *'to be between a rock and a hard place'*: *être pris dans un dilemme'*
and *'être entre l'enclume et le marteau'* = '*to* *be between the devil and the deep blue sea'*.
Maybe we'll finally get somewhere  (or maybe it's getting worse. Or maybe I should buy a better dictionary  (it's getting old now))


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## zaby

En anglais pourtant les 2 expressions ont bien l'air d'avoir la même signification de dilemne ...

Une explication pour l'origine de '*to* *be between the devil and the deep blue sea'*.
(je me demandais bien ce que le diable venait faire près de l'eau ):

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/between%20the%20devil%20and%20the%20deep%20blue%20sea.html


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## DearPrudence

Oui, il y a toujours cette expression 'tomber de Charybde en Scylla' qui vient se mélanger dans mon esprit (il faudra vraiment que j'y fasse du tri).


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## edwingill

Oxford Dictionary definitions: *caught between a rock and a hard place* = faced with two difficult alternatives. *to be between the devil and the deep blue sea =* caught in a dilemma
Another possibility which does not have literary elegance =*être confronté à  un choix impossible. *By the way *Sophie's choice* has been adopted as an expression in English


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## zaby

DearPrudence said:
			
		

> Oui, il y a toujours cette expression 'tomber de Charybde en Scylla' qui vient se mélanger dans mon esprit (il faudra vraiment que j'y fasse du tri).


Oh nooon je ne la connaissais pas celle-là. De toute façon elle est trop dure à écrire. 



			
				edwingill said:
			
		

> By the way *Sophie's choice* has been adopted as an expression in English


I've already heard "faire le choix de Sophie" in France too but it's rarely used.


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## DearPrudence

zaby said:
			
		

> I've already heard "faire le choix de Sophie" in France too but it's rarely used.


 
Wah, I knew 'K's choice'  but I had never heard of 'Sophie's choice' or 'le choix de Sophie': on en apprend tous les jours!


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## CARNESECCHI

Hello,
Juste une petite remarque pour ne pas se mélanger les pinceaux "Tomber de Charybde en Scylla" signifie sortir d'une situation difficile pour tomber dans une autre plus difficile encore. Y'a pas le choix!
Charybde et Scylla sont deux monstres marins dont on parle dans l'Odyssée :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mon.bateau/odyssee/charybde1.htm
Hope it helps!


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## danielle_davout

edwingill said:
			
		

> Oxford Dictionary definitions: *caught between a rock and a hard place* = faced with two difficult alternatives.



on peut dire en anglais faced with/ between 2 alternatives  sans provoquer des foudres ?

Il n'y a jamais qu'*une* alternative composée de *deux* éléments entre lesquels il faut se décider.
S'il ne reste qu'un parti à prendre, il n'y a pas d'alternative.
l'alternative elle-même est l'option entre deux issues, deux moyens 
etc.
et 2 X 2 = 4


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## MissEliott

être pris entre deux eaux...?


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## FannyB

CARNESECCHI said:


> Hello,
> Juste une petite remarque pour ne pas se mélanger les pinceaux "Tomber de Charybde en Scylla" signifie sortir d'une situation difficile pour tomber dans une autre plus difficile encore. Y'a pas le choix!


Good point, I think.
AFAIC the three phrases are not equivalent.
*Caught* between a rock and a hard place means you're in a very awkward situation, whichever way you turn. In French you'd say _pris dans un dilemme _or _en tenailles._
Between the devil and the deep blue sea (sic) refers to an impossible choice, in French _choisir entre la peste et le choléra._
Out of the frying pan into the fire implies an evolving situation : while trying to escape one danger you find yourself in even greater peril, in French _tomber de Charybde en Scylla_.

_entre deux eaux_ is different AFAIK, the phrase would be _nager entre deux eaux _which reminds me of the English phrase *to sit on the fence* ie refusing to take sides.


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## catheng

être pris entre deux feux    can be heard in French


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## wildan1

FannyB said:


> *Caught* between a rock and a hard place means you're in a very awkward situation, whichever way you turn. In French you'd say _pris dans un dilemme _or _en tenailles._


 
When I visited Jordan I was told that the current geopolitics of their region leaves people in that country feeling that they are _"caught between Iraq and a hard place."_ 

(NB In AE_ Iraq_ is usually pronounced to rhyme with _"rock"_)


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## FannyB

catheng said:


> être pris entre deux feux can be heard in French


Tout à fait, catheng, à rapprocher IMO de _pris en tenailles_.
wildan1, iffy situation no doubt but good pun, pat example of French _humour noir_.


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## Chris' Spokesperson

wildan1 said:


> When I visited Jordan I was told that the current geopolitics of their region leaves people in that country feeling that they are _"caught between Iraq and a hard place."_



Hahahaha, cela c'est formidable !


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## finaud

I think to sit on the fence is 'menager  la  chevre et le chou  but that is not being in a dilema, but rather refusing to take either side in a situation. I think it emphasizes your indecisiveness (or even opportunism)  rather than the dificulty in the choices.


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## Keith Bradford

Another English expression is "_*damned if you do and damned if you don't*_" = condamné, n'importe laquelle des deux options on choisit.

I vote that it's time we buried that old chestnut about the "real" meaning of _alternative_.  We all know that in everyday speech one can have two or three or more alternatives, and nobody ever misunderstands it.  Latin etymology be damned!


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## Kitcitwapien

Le filon n'est pas épuisé: _coincé entre l'arbre et l'écorce_. Et pour les latinistes, _a fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi (devant le précipice, derrière les loups)_


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## sinopoli

wildan1 said:


> When I visited Jordan I was told that the current geopolitics of their region leaves people in that country feeling that they are _"caught between Iraq and a hard place."_
> 
> (NB In AE_ Iraq_ is usually pronounced to rhyme with _"rock"_)



Good one


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## sinopoli

FannyB said:


> Good point, I think.
> AFAIC the three phrases are not equivalent.
> *Caught* between a rock and a hard place means you're in a very awkward situation, whichever way you turn. In French you'd say _pris dans un dilemme _or _en tenailles._
> Between the devil and the deep blue sea (sic) refers to an impossible choice, in French _choisir entre la peste et le choléra._
> Out of the frying pan into the fire implies an evolving situation : while trying to escape one danger you find yourself in even greater peril, in French _tomber de Charybde en Scylla_.
> 
> _entre deux eaux_ is different AFAIK, the phrase would be _nager entre deux eaux _which reminds me of the English phrase *to sit on the fence* ie refusing to take sides.



Well, it's usually just "between etc" these days, i would say, the compulsion to condense everything possible into a pithy and therefore a more easily remembered phrase.

Also, does not "Hobson's choice" cone into the fray here ?


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## broglet

wildan1 said:


> When I visited Jordan I was told that the current geopolitics of their region leaves people in that country feeling that they are _"caught between Iraq and a hard place."_
> 
> (NB In AE_ Iraq_ is usually pronounced to rhyme with _"rock"_)


Every American I have ever heard pronounces Iraq 'eye-rack'

English people often talk about finding themselves bewteen Scylla and Charybdis so the French equivalent "tomber de Charybde en Scylla" looks good - even though in that phraseology it is more like 'out of the frying pan into the fire'.

In a dubious fish and chip shop you might find yourself choosing between a rock (= dogfish) and a hard plaice, but that is another story.


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## wildan1

The only Americans I know who say "eye-rack" are military who have been there. That is a closer approximation to the Arabic prononciation.

I assure you that the rest of us do say "a rock".


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