# The sound of Qamats



## federix

Are there easy guidelines (if not 100% accurate) as to when qamats (אָ) should be pronounced like Patah (אַ) and when like Holam (אֹ)? My area of interest is fundamentally just Modern Israeli Hebrew... My understanding is that it sounds like Holam only when appearing in a closed (ends in consonant) unstressed syllable, otherwise it sounds like Patah. Can anyone with better knowledge than me confirm or expand on this? Are there any notable exceptions to this that are worth remembering? Thanks,


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## yuval9

Kamatz Gadol(big kamatz - A / patach) = long vowel
Kamatz Katan (small kamatz - O / holam) = short vowel
although we don't distinguish between short and long vowels in modern pronunciation of hebrew, the vowels Kamatz gadol/katan still have to follow the rules of short and long vowels.

so yes, usually when you have a closed unstressed syllable, it has a short vowel, and the vowel is similar to Holam
(but i think there are exceptions)

now you need to know that when you have a Dagesh (dot) after the Kamatz (in the next letter), the syllable is considered to be a closed syllable . so if you have a dagesh in the next letter, and the syllable is unstressed, the vowels is similar to Holam


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## federix

Thanks, it makes sense. But I didn't get the bit about the dagesh... Could you give me an example? I thought the syllable was closed if it was followed by a consonant with Shva, or am I saying something completely stupid?


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## ks20495

> But I didn't get the bit about the dagesh... Could you give me an example?



Wikipedia uses the example עָזִּי (my power). 



> I thought the syllable was closed if it was followed by a consonant with Shva, or am I saying something completely stupid?



A syllable is also considered closed if it is followed by a דגש חזק. (Identifying a דגש חזק is another question entirely.)

קמץ קטן is not really something you have to worry about. It occurs very infrequently in conversation and only slightly more frequently in writing. 

There are a few common words to remember: חָכמה, תָכנית, חָדשי, אָזניים,. (But many Israelis incorrectly write them as חוכמה, תוכנית, חודשי, אוזניים...so knowing the correct form really doesn't affect your level of fluency.)


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## berndf

federix said:


> Thanks, it makes sense. *But I didn't get the bit about the dagesh*... Could you give me an example? I thought the syllable was closed if it was followed by a consonant with Shva, or am I saying something completely stupid?


Hebrew historically distinguished not only long and short vowels but also long and short consonants, like Italian double consonants. E.g. in "Piazza" you hear the "z" is both syllables "Piaz-za" ['piat.sa] and, hence, the first syllable is closed. Long consonants are indicated in Hebrew by a דגש. Simply think of a consonant with a דגש חזק like of an Italian double consonant.


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## federix

Thank you guys, that was very useful. Being Italian, I particularly relate to berndf's explanation of the דגש חזק. Just to be clear, gemination (double consonants) does not occur in modern Hebrew anymore, does it?


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## yuval9

federix said:


> Thank you guys, that was very useful. Being Italian, I particularly relate to berndf's explanation of the דגש חזק. Just to be clear, gemination (double consonants) does not occur in modern Hebrew anymore, does it?


we don't distinguish between letters with dagesh and without dagesh anymore.
only in 3 letters: ב כ פ
ב is pronounced like B with dagesh, and like V without dagesh
פ is like P with dagesh, and like F without dagesh
כ is like K with dagesh, and like Kh (german CH) without a dagesh

we only use it when we study hebrew linguistics (to see where the word came from)


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## ks20495

Just to add on...

The change that a dagesh causes in ב, כ, and פ does not involve gemination.


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## OsehAlyah

What happens to the kamatz pronunciation if one cannot determine whether a syllable it is in is closed or open like for example if it appears in a two letter word? Or is that automatically assumed open?


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## yuval9

OsehAlyah said:


> What happens to the kamatz pronunciation if one cannot determine whether a syllable it is in is closed or open like for example if it appears in a two letter word? Or is that automatically assumed open?


then the kamatz is "A" like patach (like a stressed syllable)

but pay attention: sometimes 2 (or more) words come together in a "proximity". and the 2 words become like "one word" grammarly.
for example:
כָּל-האנשים (all the people)
you read it as KOL. because the 2 words come together, and you treat the syllable כל as an unstressed syllable. (the stress is in "שים")


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## ks20495

The process Israelis use for ניקוד assumes that you know the pronunciation of the word.

We don't ask ourselves: "Is this vowel 'o' or 'a'?" 
Rather, we ask ourselves: "This word has an 'o' in it. Do I write it (for example) תֹ, תוֹ, or תֶ?" 

Because we use this logic, it's really important to be fluent before you try to master ניקוד. (And קמץ קטן is definitely one of the _later_ steps in that process )


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