# war bei den Kindern am beliebtesten (superlative as adverb, not predicative adjective)



## Deleted721968

"The strawberry ice cream was the most popular one with the kids".

My textbook translates this as:

_"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern am beliebtesten"
_
I am not doubting the translation is correct, but the textbook says that "most popular" is an adverb.

Why is this an adverb and not a predicative adjective?

"The strawberry ice cream was the most popular [ice cream] one with the kids".

_"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern das beliebteste [Eis]"
_
Is it just the case that the book is not explaining it properly? Or am I missing something here?

Thanks.


----------



## Hutschi

Hi,
as far as I understand it, _"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern das beliebteste [Eis]" _ is more correct.
You can omit "Eis" without changing the sense. "Das" in the second part refers to "Erdbeereis" according to the principle of short binding, even if you omit "Eis".


_"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern (von allen Eissorten) am beliebtesten."
This is not exactly the same. It requires context, if you omit "von allen Eissorten".


"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern am beliebtesten."_
It can mean, that they do not like e.g.  chocolate, cake and others as much as strawberry ice cream.
If it is clear that you speak about ice cream and nothing else, the sentence is correct, however.

"Am beliebtesten" does not say anything about the set from where you can choose, except that it contains "Erdbeereis".

... es ist am beliebtesten. "Am beliebtesten" is the superlative. "Beliebt" is considered as adverb, it modifies "ist" --- (es) ist am beliebtesten. (am beliebtesten sein) and it cannot be declined.  Duden | Adverb | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Synonyme, Herkunft


> [unflektierbares] Wort, das ein im Satz genanntes Verb, ein Substantiv, ein Adjektiv oder ein anderes Adverb seinem Umstand nach näher bestimmt; Umstandswort (z. B. abends, drüben, fatalerweise)



In "das beliebteste" it is an adjective because it modifies "Eis". (The one in brackets, if you omit it, the empty trace of "Eis" is modified, and it is declined..)

---
In German it is not so simple. I gave a version I learned in school. Some grammarians have other definitions.


----------



## anahiseri

*castagnaccio, *
I can understand that you are a bit confused by the grammar explanations in your text book, but that's not the problem of the book, it's the standard explanation. Adverbs and adjectives are analyzed differently in German compared with English or Spanish or other languages. And I'm afraid Hutschi's explanation (which I'm sure is absolutely correct) won't help you much.

I think you shouldn't worry about the theory and accept that
*am + Superlativ *(-en)
is more or less the same as
*der/die/das  + Superlative *(with ending)
EXAMPLE:
Dieses Lied ist *am* schönst*en*. = Das ist das schönste Lied.
I admit that the difference Hutschi sees between both expressions is not entirely clear to me.


----------



## Hutschi

I explain it:


_"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern am beliebtesten. Kuchen mochten sie nicht."_
_ "Das Erdbeer*eis* war bei den Kindern das beliebteste." ("Das" refers to "*Eis*".) _
In 2 it is clear that "beliebt" refers to different sorts of Ice cream.
in 1 this is only clear, if the context is clear.

1 a) Die Eisverkäuferin sagte: _"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern am beliebtesten._
Here it is clear.

So Castagnaccio is right with doubt and own translation.



> Dieses Lied ist *am* schönst*en*. = Das ist das schönste Lied.


This is also clear in certain context.

In special context both are different.
Example:
Dieses Lied ist am schönsten. Es ist viel schöner als der Comedy-Beitrag.


----------



## bearded

castagnaccio said:


> the textbook says that "most popular" is an adverb.


Apparently, the textbook contains some confusion. Of course ''most popular'' is a predicative adjective in the English sentence.  It is the suggested translation _am beliebtesten_ which you have to see as an adverbial expression (literally meaning ''in the most popular (way'')). Cf. Hutschi's last example ''dieses Lied ist am schönsten'': it's a common way to express a superlative (in predicative position) in German, as anahiseri explained.


----------



## berndf

castagnaccio said:


> "The strawberry ice cream was the most popular one with the kids".
> 
> My textbook translates this as:
> 
> _"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern am beliebtesten"
> _
> I am not doubting the translation is correct, but the textbook says that "most popular" is an adverb.
> 
> Why is this an adverb and not a predicative adjective?
> 
> "The strawberry ice cream was the most popular [ice cream] one with the kids".
> 
> _"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern das beliebteste [Eis]"
> _
> Is it just the case that the book is not explaining it properly? Or am I missing something here?
> 
> Thanks.


Since predicative adjectives and adjective-derived adverbs have long become morphologically indistinguishable, the *conceptual* distinction between the two has severely suffered in German grammar. It is at least worth consideration if it makes sense to maintain the distinction at all.


----------



## bearded

berndf said:


> Since predicative adjectives and adjective-derived adverbs have long become morphologically indistinguishable, the *conceptual* distinction between the two has severely suffered in German grammar. It is at least worth consideration if it makes sense to maintain the distinction at all.


You are right.  However, a structure like ''am beliebtesten'' remains clearly recognisable as an adverbial, doesn't it?


----------



## Deleted721968

Thank you all.

I've used a number of grammars over the years and, not living in Germany, I have to make do with what I have.

The usage of the superlative is not consistent across the grammar books I've used. I accept the fact that most German speakers would probably say:

_"Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern am beliebtesten"
_
but I still find this difficult to digest.

I can't copy and paste but if you have Martin Durrell's "Hammer" and go to chapter 8.4.1.b, (_The Superlative form am...sten > b. After the verb sein_), I read and re-read that passage a million times and I still can't make sense of it. 

Snippet here:
https://i.imgur.com/aHVUTC2.png


----------



## berndf

bearded said:


> You are right.  However, a structure like ''am beliebtesten'' remains clearly recognisable as an adverbial, doesn't it?


I have no idea. This is one of those cases where you can't tell anymore. But if I had to make a decision I would say it is a predicative adjective phrase. Let's first take a simpler case.

_Das Haus ist rot._
_Das Haus ist roter._
_Das Haus ist am rotesten_.
The three sentences clearly have the same logical structure and differ only in degree. At least that is how every native speaker intuitively parses it. I see absolutely no reason why 1. and 2. should be analysed as copula+predictive adjective and 3. as verb+adverbial phrase.

Now back to
_Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern am beliebtesten._​To convince me that _bei den Kindern am beliebtesten_ is an adverbial phrase, you have first to convice me that _bei den Kindern beliebt_ in
_Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern beliebt._​is an adverbial as well. And I can't see that, yet. For me they are all adjective phrases.


----------



## berndf

castagnaccio said:


> I can't copy and paste but if you have Martin Durrell's "Hammer" and go to chapter 8.4.1.b, (_The Superlative form am...sten > b. After the verb sein_), I read and re-read that passage a million times and I still can't make sense of it.


It seems difficult for you to free your self from the idea that the superlative bust be connected with the definite article. This is probably because the definite article distinguishes comparative and superlative in Romance languages and a superlative without a definite article is impossible. In German, superlatives do not need an article. 

In English you have such, we may call them "absolute", superlatives as well:
_This question is the most interesting [one].
This question is most interesting.

This ice cream is the best [one].
This ice cream is best._​


----------



## Deleted721968

berndf said:


> It seems difficult for you to free your self from the idea that the superlative bust be connected with the definite article.


How do you jump to this conclusion? I know that a superlative doesn't have to be accompanied by an article. My question was about how to determine whether a superlative is an adverb or an adjective.

Logic would dictate that an adverb answers the question: "How?"

Example: _"Ein Ferrari fährt am schnellsten"_
"Wie _fährt ein Ferrari? Am schnellsten".
_
This is an adverb for me. Fine with that.

"Which ice cream is the most popular?"
"How..."

This doesn't look like an adverb to me.



berndf said:


> This is probably because the definite article distinguishes comparative and superlative in Romance languages and a superlative without a definite article is impossible.


I'm not sure where you get that from.



berndf said:


> In German, superlatives do not need an article.


Agreed, and not just in German.


berndf said:


> In English you have such, we may call them "absolute", superlatives as well:
> _This question is the most interesting [one].
> This question is most interesting.
> 
> This ice cream is the best [one].
> This ice cream is best._​


Agreed on this, too, but I'm not sure how relevant this is.


----------



## berndf

castagnaccio said:


> Agreed on this, too, but I'm not sure how relevant this is.


Then I don't understand your problem at all. The snippet you posted is only about whether the superlative is used with or without a definite article, nothing else.



castagnaccio said:


> This doesn't look like an adverb to me.


Nor does it to me (as I explained) nor does it matter in any way in German if you analyse it as an adverb or as a predicative adjective (as I explained). The conceptual distinction between the two is largely unintuitive to a German. Only speakers with a good knowledge of other languages understand at all what this difference could possibly be.


----------



## Deleted721968

berndf said:


> The snippet you posted is only about whether the superlative is used with or without a definite article, nothing else.



So, Durrell says: 

1) _If a *noun is understood*, either [forms] can be used_

So far, so good.

2) _If there is *no noun to be be understood* or if something is being compared with itself (= ‘at its most...’), only
the form with am can be used.
_
This is where I don't get it. The example he offers:
_"Ein Mercedes wäre am teuersten"_

I'd have thought that a noun is to be understood here. "Ein Mercedes" is "Ein Auto". 
_"Ein Mercedes wäre das teuerste [Auto]" _is what I expect.

The last two examples make sense to me, because they compare with themselves.


----------



## berndf

castagnaccio said:


> This is where I don't get it. The example he offers:
> _"Ein Mercedes wäre am teuersten"_
> 
> I'd have thought that a noun is to be understood here. "Ein Mercedes" is "Ein Auto".
> _"Ein Mercedes wäre das teuerste [Auto]" _is what I expect.


It isn't a _definite_ car. It is _ein Mercedes_, i.e. the subject is not a specific object but a generic member of a class of objects and _am teuersten _applies to any object in this class. That's why you can't use the definite article.

By the way: The English equivalent they offer does not strike me as particularly idiomatic. I would have expected
_A Mercedes would we the most expensive option._​or something similar.


----------



## Hutschi

berndf said:


> ...
> 
> ...
> _A Mercedes would we the most expensive option._​...



Exactly.

_"Ein Mercedes wäre das teuerste." = "Ein Mercedes wäre die teuerste Option/das teuerste Objekt." (This is because Mercedes is male and Auto is neuter, so "Auto" cannot be omitted. There is no direct reference.)
This way here it has the same meaning as:
"Ein Mercedes wäre am teuersten."
_


----------



## bearded

berndf said:


> The conceptual distinction between the two is largely unintuitive to a German. Only speakers with a good knowledge of other languages understand at all what this difference could possibly be


Now I understand your point, berndf.  However it seems to me that in some cases a structure like 'am besten' can only be regarded as adverbial: for example in the sentence_ Am besten gehst du sofort nach Hause_ what else can 'am besten' be if not an 'Adverbialbestimmung'?  I admit that - after_ sein_ or anyhow in predicative position (das ist am besten..) -  a somewhat adjectival interpretation is also possible.
In traditional grammar handbooks (until some decades ago, at least) all such expressions (using a neuter adjective preceded by a preposition: am besten, im geringsten, im großen und ganzen…) were classified as adverbial, and the writing oscillated between upper and lower case (am Besten, im Geringsten.. with adjective nominalization). It is not easy to dismiss old grammatical concepts.

Now I'd like to reply to your #9 from a 'traditional' point of view:
You say you don't see why no.3 is not adjectival: Well, a real superlative adjective would be ''rotest''.  Since German usage does not allow this in predicative position, recourse is made to an adverbial expression (am rotesten < an dem Rotesten = im rotesten Zustand).


----------



## berndf

bearded said:


> You say you don't see why no.3 is not adjectival: Well, a real superlative adjective would be ''rotest''.


Languages are how they are and not how one thinks they "ought to be". The attributive form of the superlative of the adjective XXX is _XXX-(e)st_-<adjective ending> and the stand alone form is _am XXX-(e)sten_. That is simply the morphology of the German superlative.

It seems you are understanding _am_ as a preposition. That's not what it is. Is is just a morpheme. This is like the _ò_ in Italian _io viver*ò*_ or the _te_ in German _ich leb*te*_: they were originally words (auxiliary verbs) in their own rights. Today they are mere morphemes.


----------



## bearded

Sorry, I cannot fully follow you (sorry also for alliteration). In your opinion, in the sentence '_am besten gehst du nach Hause'_   'am' is not a preposition (=an dem)...? You describe 'am' as a mere morpheme, like -te in 'lebte'. The difference is that 'am' is still alive and kicking in German (am Bahnhof...), and -te is not.  Or do you mean to say that 'am' used to be a preposition (=an dem), but in certain cases/positions it is not a preposition any more?

Im canoonet finde ich unter ''Verschmelzung Präposition+Artikel'' u.a. Beispiel (am bei Superlativ-Formen): am besten.
canoonet - Artikel: Verschmelzung Präposition+Artikel


----------



## berndf

Nobody has ever doubted that it is an adverbial in _Am besten gehst du nach Hause_. But that is not relevant here. Adverbs and predicative adjectives always look the same, so if _am besten _is an adverb in one type of sentence it says nothing about what it is in a different type of sentence.


----------



## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> It seems you are understanding _am_ as a preposition. That's not what it is. Is is just a morpheme.


Really?


bearded said:


> The difference is that 'am' is still alive and kicking in German (am Bahnhof...), and -te is not.


I agree with bearded.


> Der Superlativ ist der höchste Steigerungsgrad der Eigenschaftswörter. Zum Ausdruck kommt die größtmögliche *Teilhabe an* einer Eigenschaft.


am ist m.E. (auch im Superlativ) die Verschmelzung von an + dem.


----------



## berndf

Then explain me how there is a preposition _an_ in
_Das Haus ist am rotesten_.​and what function syntactic and/or semantic it has and where it is gone in
_Das Haus ist roter._​as the only difference between the two sentences is the degree of the adjective.


----------



## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> Then explain me how there is a preposition _an_ in
> _Das Haus ist am rotesten_.


Es hat den höchsten Anteil an Rot. 

Übrigens, ich dachte immer, Farben könne man nicht steigern .........


----------



## bearded

berndf said:


> Then explain me how there is a preposition _an_ in
> _Das Haus ist am rotesten_.​and what function syntactic and/or semantic it has and where it is gone in
> _Das Haus ist roter._​as the only difference between the two sentences is the degree of the adjective.


I tried to explain precisely that in the last part of my #16...


----------



## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Es hat den höchsten Anteil an Rot.


And? That doesn't even address the question I have asked.


----------



## berndf

bearded said:


> I tried to explain precisely that in the last part of my #16...


Etymologically yes. But that is not the issue here.


----------



## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> hat doesn't even address the question I have asked.


Weiterdenken!



JClaudeK said:


> Es hat den höchsten Anteil an Rot.


den höchsten Anteil a*n* de*m* Roten. > a*m* rotesten


----------



## bearded

berndf said:


> Etymologically yes.


Also 'etymologisch' gibst Du mir Recht. Besser als nichts.


----------



## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Weiterdenken!
> 
> 
> den höchsten Anteil a*n* de*m* Roten. > am rotesten


Und? Weil in einer vollkommen anders strukturierten Erklärung eine Präposition vorkommt? Was ist denn dass für eine Argument?

Der Komperativ gibt am, dass etwas einen höheren Anteil an der Eigenshaft hat. Sagtest du darum _Das Haus ist am roter?_


----------



## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> Und? Weil in einer vollkommen anders strukturierten Erklärung eine Präposition vorkommt? Was ist denn dass für eine Argument?


Irgendwoher muss ja dieses "a*m*" (das sonst nirgends vorkommt) ja kommen. "Spontanzeugung"?

Zurück zur ursprünglichen Frage:


castagnaccio said:


> Why is this an adverb and not a predicative adjective?



Hier gefunden:


> "Den prädikativen Superlativ mit _am_ darf man nicht verwechseln mit dem adverbialen S.
> Wenn ich sage "Der Gesang der Vögel ist des Morgens am schönsten." so steht der S. _am schönsten_ prädikativ; wenn ich aber sage "Die Vögel singen des Morgens am schönsten." so steht derselbe S. als Adverbialbestimmung.



According to this ↑ in


castagnaccio said:


> "Das Erdbeereis war bei den Kindern am beliebtesten"


"am beliebtesten" _is_ "prädikativ".


----------



## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> Irgendwoher muss ja dieses "a*m*" (das sonst nirgends vorkommt) ja kommen. "Spontanzeugung"?


Result of the merger of predicative and adverbial forms of adjectives.


----------



## JClaudeK

berndf said:


> Result of the merger of predictive and adverbial forms.



Predictive?

And how should that merger produce "am" if not by "an + dem"?


----------



## Deleted721968

JClaudeK said:


> According to this ↑ in
> 
> "am beliebtesten" _is_ "prädikativ".


This reinforces my opinion that my textbook has made an arbitrary distinction between superlative of the adjective and superlative of the adverb, while, in practice, it should have focused on when to use one or the other forms of the superlative.


----------



## berndf

JClaudeK said:


> And how should that merger produce "am" if not by "an + dem"?


As people did not distinguish between predicative and adverbial use, the adverbial form of the superlative has assumed the predicative sense as well.

Anyway, when you analysed _am_ as a preposition rather than as a syntactically meaningless morpheme, as @bearded does, then you would be forced also to agree with him that there would be no such thing as a predicative superlative with _am_ and that the analysis you quoted in #29 would be wrong.


----------



## bearded

berndf said:


> the adverbial form of the superlative has assumed the predicative sense as well.


Dieser Formulierung kann ich zustimmen.


----------



## berndf

castagnaccio said:


> This reinforces my opinion that my textbook has made an arbitrary distinction between superlative of the adjective and superlative of the adverb, while, in practice, it should have focused on when to use one or the other forms of the superlative.


Indeed. The distinction does not matter in any practically relevant way in German. It is more of an intellectual puzzle.


----------

