# Tombe pain d'epices



## mkallet

Bonjour!  Qu'est-ce qu'on peut traduire ici, avec ce poème qui commence:

"Tombe pain d'epices / les blessés sont loin"?  ("Nuage")

"Tombe"--est-ce que c'est l'impératif?  i.e, "Fall gingerbread 


 Ou est-ce que c'est indicatif?

It rains gingerbread /

Merci à l'avance!  Marilyn


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## Fredddd

Maybe if you could give us the poem, it would inspire the poet in us ;-) 
Because, really, it could be either. In poetry, everything is allowed.


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## MaRong

We could also understand "gingerbread's grave"... Fredddd is true, everything is allowed in poetry.
More context, more context !


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## mkallet

Le poeme s'apple "Nuage":

Tombe pain d'épices
les blessés sont loin
les plantes sont mortes
et les maladies respirent à peine

That's it!   My reading is either the imperative or the indicative: Drops gingerbread ("Cloud" would be the subject)   Merci mille fois de m'aider!


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## philosophia

The title being _"Nuage_", I understand _tombe _as an imperative :
"Pour down gingerbread".
But I don't understand what gingerbread stands for, what kind of a rain is it supposed to be? Is it a poem on war, gingerbread being a metaphor for bombs or something?


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## mkallet

I like the translation that reads this as the imperative.

The poem gives us very little context--it's a four-line mood piece.  The poet sounds sad.
Maybe he needs gingerbread to be cheered up!

Merci mille fois de réfléchir avec moi!   Marilyn


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## franc 91

let the gingerbread come down
the wounded are far away....?


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## philosophia

franc 91 said:


> let the gingerbread come down
> the wounded are far away....?


Much better than my proposition.
Maybe Marilyn is right he needs comfort and gingerbread would bring him some.
Maybe it's a reference to the manna sent by God in the Bible mixed with fairy tales such as Hansel and Gretel where you can find gingerbread houses.
 I'm prone to overinterpretation.


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## Aoyama

Tombe, if spelt correctly (no S, right ?) should be the imperative of tomber.
But then, as MaRong suggests, tombe = tomb, grave could also be an option, according to context, where "blessés /plantes mortes/
maladies (qui) respirent à peine" are mentioned.


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## philosophia

Yes, you and MaRong are right. This interpretation cannot be ruled out. Still, the title _Nuage _rather suggests the "come down" interpretation to my hears for "_Tombe_" (no "s" you're right).
Maybe the poet is deliberately ambiguous.


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## mkallet

You guys really rock!  Thanks for being so thoughtful about this little challenge. 

I am indebted--   Marilyn


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## Surfin' Bird

Je me demande si le "pain d'épices" en question ne pourrait pas faire référence à des obus ou quelque chose dans le genre.

(Au figuré et à l'ancienne, un pain d'épice peut aussi être un coup - comme un pain (tout court) aujourd'hui.)

"Les blessés sont loin", je ne suis pas sûr de ce que ça vaut mais ça pourrait mériter réflexion...


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## mkallet

Ah, c'est intéressant!   Je vais chercher cette référence.  Je crois que vous avez découverte un vérité.

Merci!


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## Surfin' Bird

Well. My comment was actually more intuitive than documented but the atmosphere feels like a World War I thing to me - in which case my suggestion would probably make sense. (Especially since the guys had a language of their own...)


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## franc 91

mustard gas perhaps


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## mkallet

Peret did fight in World War I.   I'm mulling over your very astute thoughts--


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## Surfin' Bird

franc 91 said:


> mustard gas perhaps



Could be...

Now, I really think that, at the time, "pain d'épices" conveyed a notion of something that actually hits you (like a punch in your face or something). That's why the mental picture I got was that of a rain of shells. (Orange light/Gingerbread...)

But, then again, I'm just guessing.


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## franc 91

les épices....ça pique des yeux?


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## Aoyama

Hum ... Food for thought, for what it's worth :
Nuage associated with pain d'épices _could be_ understood as a cloud of "spice gas, mustard gas, poisonous gas" (qui pique _les_ yeux), which would kill, maim, devastate ... All this baring in mind poetic license.
By the way, is it really "maladies" or "malades" (no i)? Second case would make more sense.


> pain d'épices" conveyed a notion of something that actually hits you (like a punch in your face or something).


 like "recevoir un pain dans la gueule ..." (get a punch in the face)... I don't think so, this use of "pain = punch" is rather recent.


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## mkallet

Interesting!  I'm sure you're onto something here.   Thanks--

And yes, it's malades--typo!   Sorry!    Marilyn


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## Meille

Are there any lines before this that could maybe help us out?


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## Fredddd

You mean "Benjamin Péret" ? Well, that could explain a lot. he was a surrealist and prone to use associations of words that had nothing to do with one another. He played "cadavre exquis" and could write poems with the result of this association of words produced by chance only. 

"Toute l’œuvre poétique de Péret est placée sous le signe de  l’émancipation des mots. "
For him, the meaning is not important at all. Here is a site I found on him. But I suppose you know all of this already. So excuse me for writing it here, but I thought it might help others to help you, in fact.
http://www.benjamin-peret.org/biographie.html.
I can't be of any help here. Péret is playing with words. His poem could be just an addition of words resulting of such a game. I think you are at liberty to translate him as you feel it. But maybe some Péret specialists are around and could help you better ?
Bon courage !
A bientôt.


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## philosophia

"Des obus de gaz moutarde" me paraît une bonne interprétation pour "pain d'épices" :
- la moutarde est un condiment qui se prépare avec des épices
- la moutarde, le pain d'épices et les explosions d'obus sont dans les tonalités marron - orangées, comme l'a noté Surfin' Bird supra
- la moutarde est un condiment tout à fait innocent alors que le gaz moutarde est mortel, autrement dit le nom du gaz est trompeur sur sa nocivité, alors pourquoi pas l'appeler pain d'épices, d'autant plus que dans _Hansel et Gretel_ (j'y tiens, j'aime beaucoup ce conte) la maison de pain d'épices a l'air appétissante mais recèle un danger mortel, la sorcière.
Cela dit, je rappelle que j'ai une légère tendance à la sur-interprétation.


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## Meille

I also think it is a cloud of mustard gas. I see it this way:

(The cloud is a) spicy tomb
The injured have been left behind
The plants are dead
And the stricken can barely breathe.

(I must add that I'm building on the work of all who contributed before me   )


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## philosophia

meille said:


> (The cloud is a) *spicy tomb*
> The injured have been left behind
> The plants are dead
> And the stricken can barely breathe.


L'idéal serait de pouvoir garder en anglais l'ambiguïté du vers français : "tombe pain d'épices" puisque les deux sens
_spicy tomb_
_let the gingerbread come down_
sont possibles. Mais je ne vois pas comment.

Belle traduction Meille


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## xtrasystole

MaRong said:


> We could also understand "gingerbread's grave"...


That's my understanding. A "gingerbread-like grave". 

_'Une tombe pain d'épices'_ = _'une tombe _d'aspect ou de la couleur_ du pain d'épices'_ (check the link out; looks like a simple earth-grave doesn't it?)


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## mkallet

Hmmm... Oui, je vois!  Thanks for being so thoughtful about this.


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## Surfin' Bird

En tout cas, je trouve que ce fil est une belle illustration des bienfaits du travail d'équipe !


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## xtrasystole

Chacun y met du sien. C'est le secret de la réussite !


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## Meille

Chacun ajoute son épice!


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## Surfin' Bird

Tant que la moutarde ne nous monte pas au nez !


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## xtrasystole

Toujours prêt à mettre ton grain de sel, Surfin' Bird


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## Nicomon

Bonjour,

J'ai trouvé ce qui suit... sur *cette page*:


> Or take this one, called ‘Cloud’:
> Fall gingerbread fall
> the wounded are far
> the plants are dead
> and the sick are barely breathing.​


Je préfère la version de meille pour les lignes 2 et 4... mais j'aime bien la répétition de "fall" dans la première.


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## xtrasystole

Well, IMHO this is a serious mistranslation...


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## Surfin' Bird

I really like that "Fall gingerbread, fall" thing.

In my opinion, even though it's not very clear (but it's not in French anyway!) it conveys the original meaning...


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## Nicomon

xtrasystole said:


> Well, IMHO this is a serious mistranslation...


 And imho, « tombe pain d'épices » can be interpreted many different ways. With a title like "Cloud", I personally read "fall". Not "tomb/grave".

Edit : just read Surfin'Bird's last post. I agree. I really like it too.


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## philosophia

Nicomon said:


> And imho, « tombe pain d'épices » can be interpreted many different ways. *With a title like "Cloud", I personally read "fall"*. Not "tomb/grave".
> Edit : just read Surfin'Bird's last post. I agree.* I really like it too.*


I agree with both remarks.
"Fall Gingerbread fall" is really great.
I understand Péret says the gingerbread/mustard gas can fall now that the wounded are away and the sick can barely breathe (so the gas will therefore do little to them since they won't be able to inhale it).
Kudos Nicomon for the link !


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## mkallet

Yes, I agree with the "Fall gingerbread" interpretation.   I'm leaning toward something like "Rain down gingerbread"  which has the implication of something bad raining down--

Merci mille fois!  Marilyn


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## Meille

I agree it _sounds_ good, but what on Earth is "fall, gingerbread,fall" supposed to mean?? 
The man experienced WWI. Mustard gas moves as a cloud and smells spicy. The poem is titled "Cloud". It kills plants. It kills humans by burning their throats so they can't breathe (and die). You can't carry out the wounded if you're dying yourself. 
I think Nico's reference is wrong and "tombe" is really a tomb here. 
The cloud is an aromatic tomb.


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## mkallet

You're giving me more to think about!  Thank you for reflecting further--Marilyn


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## Nicomon

meille said:


> I think Nico's reference is wrong and "tombe" is really a tomb here.
> The cloud is an aromatic tomb.


 As much as I'd like to believe your interpretation... I have yet to find a reference that would say it means "tomb". 
And well... I'm sorry to say, but "aromatic tomb" doesn't make much more sense to me than "fall gingerbread fall". 
I think that both _cloud_ and _pain d'épices_ refer to mustard gas or some other gas used during WWI and that said gas "_falls like rain_". 

For all it's worth... I found what follows on *this page* (look under F)





> La chloropicrine fut utilisée aussi bien seule que mélangée à d’autres substances toxiques (phosgène et arsines chez les Allemands). C’est un liquide huileux, légèrement jaunâtre, peu soluble dans l’eau et donnant des vapeurs très lourdes. Sa persistance peut atteindre 15 heures sur le terrain. *A très faible concentration, son odeur se rapproche de celle du pain d’épices*.


 
Je continue de lire que tombe = tomber, 2e personne de l'impératif singulier. Une sorte de « pluie d'obus ». So... let's agree to disagree.


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## Meille

Nico, I'm sorry, we usually agree. 
But mustard gas doesn't fall from the sky, it forms a cloud _like ground fog_, and advances. It smells spicy. (Most reports that I've read say that it smells like mustard, hence the name, but others have just said "spicy"). 
It is a cloud (that smells spicy) that envelopes you and becomes your tomb.


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## mkallet

The quotation about chloropicrine is amazing, thank you.   And I also admire the accuracy of the "ground fog" description.

Whew!

It's a hard rain, as Bob Dylan said, hard rain gonna fall!   I had translated the line as "Rain down gingerbread"--    but the gingerbread tomb makes sense    Elsewhere in his poems, Peret uses "Tombez" when he wants to voice the imperative.   So I may shift to the more static image.  I'll have to give readers a footnote, as you have given me--    merci encore une fois!   Marilyn


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## Nicomon

meille, pardon my ignorance... I don't know much about "mustard gas". Here's the table above the citation on "chloropicrine". *Emphasis mine.*

Action physiologique
Irritant, suffocant et lacrymogène
Nom de guerre
Aquinite (France)
Klop (Allemagne)
Formule
CCl3 NO2
*Etat physique*
*Liquide*
Epoque d’apparition
Fin 1916 (France) et avril 1917 (Allemagne)
*Moyen de dispersion*
*Obus, vagues*


Hence my making the association « pluie d'obus ». So I stick to it. To me, tombe = fall... not tomb. But in the end, the decision isn't mine to make. 

Love the reference to Dylan's song, Marilyn.


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## pointvirgule

meille said:


> But mustard gas doesn't fall from the sky, it forms a cloud _like ground fog_, and advances.


Well, it does too fall from the sky, since it was delivered by shells.


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## Meille

Yes, it was 'delivered' by (well now I'm not sure if 'bomb' is the right word, but you will understand the method of delivery) but it _arrived _in cloud form (ground-hugging cloud),not a liquid rain.


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## Nicomon

meille said:


> Yes, it was 'delivered' by (well now I'm not sure if 'bomb' is the right word, but you will understand the method of delivery) but it _arrived _in cloud form (ground-hugging cloud),not a liquid rain.


  Again I'll say... *pluie d'obus*.  Stubborn? Me? Yes... very much so.


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## mkallet

Voilà!  I think we've "landed" on the real sense of what's going on here!  I will credit WordReference in my acknowledgements, and I thank you all so much for your thoughtfulness and kindness.  C'est génial!  

 Marilyn


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## Meille

It seems we've been discussing 2 different things: chloropicrin is trichloronitromethane and mustard gas is sulphur dichloride.
Chloropicrin is probably right because of the smell, (I admit - from mustard to gingerbread is a bit of a stretch) but  (there had to be a 'but', right?) it is a liquid used as a poison _gas_. (It turns into a gas when it comes into contact with air.)
So, while I still think the cloud of gas is like a tomb, you're "pluie d'obus" works too.

Now that I think of it, the plants are already dead and the people are already having difficulty breathing, so I think the poison is already there and not still falling from the sky.


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## mkallet

I appreciate the accuracy!  Duly noted.   I am ever indebted--Marilyn


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## pointvirgule

To be fair to Meille, I for one am perfectly comfortable with an interpretation where _tombe_ carries both meanings of _fall _and _tumb _- why not?


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## Nicomon

meille said:


> Now that I think of it, the plants are already dead and the people are already having difficulty breathing, so I think the poison is already there and not still falling from the sky.


 Or...  it has fallen before, but it keeps falling.  No?  

I just noticed that Surfin Bird also suggested  "rain of shells" in post #17.

I can't help it... to me « _tombe_ » is simply the verb « _tomber _» in the imperative or as in « _qu'il tombe / il peut toujours tomber_ ».   
May be I don't have enough of imagination...  

But then, MaRong suggested _grave/tomb_ too right from start (#3) and a few foreros on this thread went along with that interpretation, so... yes, why not.  I just wish the author was here to explain what he *really* meant.


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## Meille

You have as much imagination as the rest of us! You see it as the verb, I see it as the noun. I wish he could tell us too!


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## xtrasystole

Encore une autre explication possible  : _"Pain d'épices"_ pourrait être *le nom de la tranchée* (qui tombe sous l'attaque ennemie). 

En effet, on sait que dans les tranchées de la première guerre mondiale, les soldats donnaient un nom (plus ou moins affectueux) à leur propre tranchée. Souvenez-vous par exemple, dans le film _'Un long dimanche de fiançailles'_ le nom de la tranchée était _'Bingo Crépuscule'_.


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## Meille

I just had a flash! The poem is_ called _"Nuage"!


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## xtrasystole

Et alors ?


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## Meille

Sorry Extrasys, I was adding to a previous debate, not responding to you. 
As for your theory, what would "tombe" mean then? That their trench is a tomb?


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## xtrasystole

Non, dans ce cas _'tombe'_ est le verbe _'tomber'_ (= "être vaincu par l'ennemi") à l'impératif. 

_"Tombe, Pain d'Épices"_ / _"Tombe, Bingo Crépuscule"_.


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## Meille

Oh, wow! We hadn't even _considered_ the 'conquered' meaning. 

But upon consideration, I still stand by my interpretation.


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## mcl357

xtrasystole said:


> Non, dans ce cas _'tombe'_ est le verbe _'tomber'_



I also think _tombe _is a verb, rather than a noun, if only because the other three lines each include a verb so it makes more sense.


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## mkallet

For the moment, the translation reads,  "Hard rain gingerbread / the wounded are distant..."

That will convey a toxic environment--  and I will add a footnote about chloropicrine with credit to WordReference.    Whew!


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## Meille

mkallet, how do you get "hard rain gingerbread"?

(I realize this is your translation and you will do as you see best, but now we're _involved_ and wondering   )


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## mcl357

mkallet said:


> I will add a footnote about  chloropicrine...


The gas is more likely to have been mustard  gas, (i.e. the colour, the fact that it caused severe problems in  breathing)
*"les malades respirent à peine*"

than chloropicrin (which was a colourless tear gas which induced  vomiting)


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## mkallet

How awful!   Thank you--Marilyn


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## Meille

mcl357, have you read all that came before or just the last few posts? Because we've been through this. Chloropictin is primarily a tear gas but it also causes respiratory problems.


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## mcl357

meille said:


> mcl357, have you read all that came before or just  the last few posts?



It would be somewhat silly to only read the last few posts of a thread 4  pages long. 

As I said, chloropicrin is colourless and its suffocating properties are  secondary to its emetic properties.  Mustard gas fits in better.


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## Meille

I agree about the silliness, it`s just that I`ve seen it happen.
The suffocating properties may not be the primary effect, but in situations of high exposure they are real enough. Chloropicrin may be colourless, but it smells like gingerbread, mustard gas... doesn`t.

Really, it doesn`t matter which poisonous gas it is, the question is what does "tombe" mean?


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## mkallet

Seriously!    But we know it doesn't mean anything good--and I can convey that!  With all my thanks--


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## Meille

mkallet, don't worry if we carry on, you are free to leave and get back to work, don't feel obliged to keep checking here if you have what you need.


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## mkallet

You are kind--I am fascinated by the discussion, and wouldn't miss it for anything!

Merci encore une fois!  M


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## Meille

Cool! That's really why I'm here too.


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## Nicomon

mcl357 said:


> The gas is more likely to have been mustard gas, (i.e. the colour, the fact that it caused severe problems in breathing)
> than chloropicrin (which was a colourless tear gas which induced vomiting)


 Where did you see any "colour" in those four lines of the poem.  I suggested chloropicrin - which of course, I didn't know anything about before I found that page - mainly because of what it says about the odor. I'll insert again the link to the page that I referenced to... which is entitled *Les suffocants* (under F). I quoted it especially for the short line that I bolded :


> A très faible concentration, *son odeur se rapproche de celle du pain d’épices*.


 I don't think there's any way to tell what the author really meant by « _pain d'épices_ »... but as meille rightly said, the issue here is more about « _tombe _».


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## mkallet

Tombe is definitely the puzzler!   Can it be read as "if gingerbread falls..." then all this other misery will occur...?


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## mcl357

My initial impression of 'colour' was from the colour of gingerbread and  also meille's own post (way back) about mustard gas smelling 'spicy'.

 I do agree that the issue is more about the meaning of _tombe _and I stand  by my own earlier post of it being a verb.  Taken together, I think the  four lines sound 'wrong' with the verb missing from only one of them.
I also feel there would be a '!' if the imperative were implied so, to me, it's 
Gingerbread is falling...


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## mkallet

How about "Down rains gingerbread..."  ?


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## mcl357

If you are keeping to a fairly literal translation of all the other  words, including gingerbread, it makes sense to stick with _fall_.
Why change tomber to pleuvoir when the same feeling is conveyed by the  literal translation?


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## mkallet

I like the "hard rain" metaphor to convey the kinds of poison we've talking about--


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## Nicomon

mkallet said:


> I like the "hard rain" metaphor to convey the kinds of poison we've talking about--


 I like the "hard rain" metaphor too (I did say I loved your reference to Dylan), but then, wouldn't that "hard rain" be the so called "gingerbread/poison gas"? 
I think it's either "hard rain" or "gingerbread"... falling (in a "shower of shells"). But I'm not sure you can use both. 

Am I even making any sense here? I'm afraid this all sounds like gibberish.   



> - On the afternoon of April 23, heavy shelling, mainly mustard gas, *fell *on the area just beyond Villers-Bretonneux
> - He pulled his mask over his face just as shells of mustard gas *fell* to earth with a seemingly innocent thump
> - For 'much of the time the *rain of shells* averaged from 5000 to 15000 daily'


 
78 posts and counting... I think I'll move to another thread, though I might be back.


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## mkallet

You're right that less is more here.   Cheers, Marilyn


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