# Pronunciation: dzs / gy / zs



## cisarro

Hi guys!I'm studying the Hungarian alphabet but *I* can't distinguish clearly among these sounds: DZS, GY and ZS (perhaps my headphones aren't so fine). Are there any trick?Thanks a lot!


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## Olivier0

DZS is English j in jazz.
ZS is s in pleasure, that is like English j but without the d sound.
GY is a d sound followed by English y in yes (in fact, the y sound is the main sound and the d before it is weak).


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## francisgranada

Approximately:

DZS - like in English *g*eneration
ZS - like in French *g*eneration, *j*e
GY - like in French a*d*ieu or English *d*ue


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## cisarro

This is my attemp in theory, but in practice i don't fell the difference when i hear a Hungarian speaker:

DZS: like _*J*ames_ (in English).
ZS: like _*J*ean_ (in French).
GY: like _*Di*eu_ (in French)


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## cisarro

Olivier0 and francisgranada:

So I'm not so wrong, right? "Na*gy*" is a torment for me hahaha.


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## francisgranada

The problem may be, perhaps, that the "Spanish ear" cannot distinguish quite well these sounds. Indeed, the Spanish *y *is pronounced in some (mostly) Latin American regions like the Hungarian ZS, or even like the DZS or GY (p.e. en la palabra *yo*).


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## Olivier0

cisarro said:


> "Na*gy*" is a torment for me hahaha.


Try starting from a Spanish word noy that would rhyme with hoy. Make the o more open, it will become a Hungarian a. Then add a mild d before the y, just enough to make a difference with the original y (if you do it too much, you modify the y too and it will be dzs).


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## Ateesh6800

cisarro said:


> I can't distinguish clearly among these sounds: DZS, GY and ZS (perhaps my headphones aren't so fine). Are there any trick?Thanks a lot!



Well, there are certain clues that can be explained in writing (obviously, most things in phonetics cannot be clarified very simply without actually pronouncing and hearing the sounds).

* "ZS"*: yes, this is like bon*J*our or *J*ean or tou*J*ours in French or plea*S*ure or *G*enre in English.
Most importantly: *"ZS"* is a *fricative*, that is, you can say it _continuously_:
- the way you can say English *ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ* or *SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS* or *SHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSH* for hours, you can also say *ZS-ZS-ZS-ZS-ZS-ZS-ZS-ZS-ZS* for hours.
A *"ZS"* is the same sound as plea*S*ure and you can say it _continuously_ as long as you have breath to do it.

Now, the question is: *can you say SH (waSH, SHakespeare) like a native speaker of English?* I realize this is difficult for many SpaniSH speakers.
However, if you have learned to say *"SH"* properly like *SH*ow (instead of "Sow"), ca*SH* (instead of "caS"), *SH*akespeare (instead of "CHakespeare") and *SH*ock (instead of "CHoke), then you are prettys much set because *"SH"* (what we write simply as *"s"* in Hungarian) is the _voiceless counterpart_ of *"ZS"*, a _voiced consonant_.

More clearly: if you can say "SH", you will pronounce the sound "ZS" with _the exact same position of your mouth and everything else_, but with the _added vocal chord vibration_.

The way "T" differs from "D",
the way "S" differs from "Z" (in Eglish and not in Spanish!),
so does "SH" differ from "ZS":
one is voiceless, the other is voiced, but these pairs are _otherwise_ formed _in the same place_.

Please give me feedback if this step works for you.

*A.*


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## Ateesh6800

*DZS:* this is exactly the same sound as *J*ohn in English.

Now... voiceless/voiced pairs again:

The way English *CH*ill differs from *J*ill (one is _voiceless_, the other is _voiced_, but both consonants are _formed in the same place_), the same thing happens with *CS*ók (kiss) and *DZS*óker (the name of the Joker card).

* * *

The main difference between *"DZS"* and *"ZS"* is that *"DZS"* is an _affricate_ while *"ZS"* is a _fricative_.

This means that while you can say *"ZS"* _continuously_ as long as you run out of breath, *"DZS"* is a different story. Right before pronouncing *"DZS"*, there is a short gap when no air pases through your mouth but pressure builds up within. Then you open up and there is a burst of air.

NOTE:

In Spanish, if you start your sentence with "después", you say:
"*D*espués..." where the *"d"* sounds like "*d*isco" in English.

However, if the *"d"* is in between like in the case of ca*d*a, the Spanish intervocal *"d"* sounds more like "*th*e" or "*th*ose" in English.

So, for the _Spanish_ ear, sentence-initial/word-initial *d*espués and intervocal ca*d*a "sound the same",
but for an English speaker's ear "*d*ose" (with [d], a _stop_) and "*th*ose" (a _fricative_) sound two distinct consonants.

The difference between
Hungarian *ZS* (ZSúr, a tea party) and *DZS* (DZSúdó)
is roughly the same as the difference between
English *SH*eet and *CH*eat.

You can say SHeet or SH-SH-SH-SH-SH-SH-SHeet, but you can _only_ say CHeat.
You can say ZSúr or ZS-ZS-ZS-ZSúr, but you can _only_ say CHeat.

Tell me if this helps at all.

*A.*


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## Ateesh6800

Algo interesante re/ el consonante *"GY"* *[ʝ] *húngaro.

Wikipedia dice ("Chilean Spanish"):

*"The velar consonants /k/, /ɡ/, and /x/ are fronted or palatalized before front vowels.
Thus,
queso ("cheese") => is pronounced [ˈceːso];
guía ("guide") => [ˈʝia]..."
*
If you know what Wikipedia is referring to with the example *queso ("cheese") => being pronuounced by some Chilean natives as [ˈceːso]*, this is pretty much what Hungarian would write as: *TY*eszo. It is somewhat similar to *Thi*erry in French.
The exception is that in Hungarian we have this palatalised *"t"* in all contexts: *TY*úk as well as kesz*TY*ű or fi*TY*eg or a*TY*a.

If you know what Wikipedia is referring to with the example *guía => being pronounced by some Chilean natives as [ˈʝia]*, this is pretty much what Hungarian would write as: GYia. In fact, the is what we say to horses to run faster. It is somewhat similar to a*DI*eu in French.
The exception is that we thave this palatalised *"g"* in all contexts: *GY*újt as well as *GY*űjt or *GY*árt or *GY*ér or *GY*í.

* * *

Now, the symbol of Hungarian *GY* in IPA [*ʝ*] tells you a lot.

The way *ZS* relates to *DZS* is the same as
the way *J* relates to *GY*.

You can say *J*ó or *JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJ*ó, but you can _only_ say *GY*ó*GY*ít.
You can say *ZS*ír or *ZS-ZS-ZS-ZS*ír, but you can _only_ say *DZS*inn.

*ZS* and *DZS* are _formed in the same place_;
however, *ZS* is a _fricative_ (it is/can be pronounced continuously) and *DZS* is an _affricate_ (it bursts out after the flow of air is stopped for a short period of time).

*J* and *GY* are also _formed in the same place_;
however, *J* is a _fricative_ (actually, an approximant, but that doesn't much matter here -- what is important is that it is/can be pronounced continuously) while *DZS* is an _affricate_ (it bursts out after the flow of air is stopped for a short period of time).

Again, tell me if this "trick" helps.

*A.*


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## cisarro

Thanks a lot Ateesh6800!!!

You're right, confusing SH and CH is very usual for Spanish speakers (e.g. _The *Ch*akespeare's *ch*ow_), fortunely I know the difference. Moreover, I was very good in French when I was in the school, so I think *ZS* and *DZS* will be affordable for me (I hope hahahahaha).

The hardest for me is *GY* because I tendt to pronounce this like *DZS*  (it's a very strange sound for me).


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## Ateesh6800

If you are OK with *sh/ch*, then *zs/dzs* is simple: it's the same thing but _voiced_.

As for *GY*, see my other comment. It seems to exist in some Chilean Spanish dialects.

*A.*


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## Rallino

Thanks Ateesh, that's most helpful indeed. 

Do or would Hungarians feel the difference between: _Jól vagyok._ and _Jól vadjok._ ?

I know that the latter doesn't exist, but just for the sake of wording: do you hear a difference between _gy_ and _dj _?

Many thanks.


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## Olivier0

cisarro said:


> The hardest for me is *GY* because I tendt to pronounce this like *DZS*  (it's a very strange sound for me).


This is also what French people tend to do, but there is a difference between French dj and Hungarian gy: the former ends with a French j / Hungarian zs, and the latter with a Hungarian j / English y (and the d is milder).
 So if you can make the distinction between French j in jour and y in yaourt, you just need to pronounce Hungarian gy mild enough not to become a French j at the end.

As for *dj*, in Hungarian it is pronouced as a long gy: that is a long mild d, followed by j (or if what is meant is the difference between French dj and Hungarian gy, see what I just said).


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## francisgranada

Rallino said:


> ... Do or would Hungarians feel the difference between: _Jól vagyok._ and _Jól vadjok._ ? ....



An example: _agya _(his brain) and _adja _(he gives)
_adja _sounds like a_*ggy*a _(a longer gy)


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## cisarro

OMG!!! That was a great and very technical explanation about *GY* hahahahaha 
I'll complement it whit this these examples about Hungarian palatals (ty, gy and ny) http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departm...andConsonants/vowels/chapter13/hungarian.html

Thanks to all of you!


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## Ateesh6800

cisarro said:


> OMG!!! That was a great and very technical explanation about *GY* hahahahaha
> I'll complement it whit this these examples about Hungarian palatals (ty, gy and ny) http://hctv.humnet.ucla.edu/departm...andConsonants/vowels/chapter13/hungarian.html
> 
> Thanks to all of you!



 In the link, "atya" does NOT mean "gather" (that would be "gyűjt"); "atya" means "father" (a more literary word than "apa").

*A.*


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## cisarro

You're right about "atya". I think it's just a typographical error because 'G' and 'F' are together on the keyboard.


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## Ateesh6800

Rallino said:


> Do or would Hungarians feel the difference between: _Jól vagyok._ and _Jól vadjok._?



A very good question indeed. _Yes, we hear the difference._

*First of all, *the sound */gy/* is not a */d/* _followed_ by a */j/*, just like a */ch/* in English is not a */t/* _followed_ by a */sh/*.

An affricate like a Hungarian */gy/* or English */ch/* is best explained like this:

A Hungarian affricate */cs/* is formed:
- _almost_ at the same place as a Hungarian */t/* but with the tongue _a bit more towards the back, towards the hard palate_ (more palatal);
- a wee bit _more pressure_ is applied by the toungue;
- pressure builds _a wee bit longer_ in "ka*cs*a" than in "ka*t*a" before the resease of */cs/* versus */t/*.

Other than that,
- airflow stops, 
- pressure builds,
- and when the */t/* would normally be released into a vowel */ta/*, */te/* etc., it is released into a Hungarian */s/* or English /sh/, but the */sh/* _is not sustained_, so we never say "kacsa/" like /kat-sh-sh-sh-a/.

A Hungarian affricate */gy/* is formed:
- _almost_ at the same place as a Hungarian */d/* but with the tongue _a bit more towards the back, towards the hard palate_ (more palatal; that also means touching the palate not with the tip but with a flatter tip of the tounge);
- a wee bit _more pressure_ is applied by the toungue;
- pressure builds _a wee bit longer_ in "a*gy*ag" than in "a*d*ag" before the resease of */gy/* versus */d/*.

Other than that,
- airflow stops, 
- pressure builds,
- and when the */d/* would normally be released into a vowel */da/*, */de/* etc., it is released into a Hungarian */j/*, but the */j/* _is not sustained_, so we never say "agyag/" like /ad-j-j-j-j-ag/.

A Hungarian affricate */c/* like in "cica" ("kitty") is formed:
 - _almost_ at the same place as a Hungarian */t/* but with the tongue _a bit more towards the back,_ where you pronounce /s/;
 - a wee bit _more pressure_ is applied by the toungue;
 - pressure builds _a wee bit longer_ in "pa*c*a" than in "pata" before the resease of */c/* versus */t/*.

 Other than that,
 - airflow stops, 
 - pressure builds,
 - and when the */t/* would normally be released into a vowel */ta/*, */te/* etc., it is released into a Hungarian */sz/*, but the */sz/* _is not sustained_, so we never say "paci/" like /pat-sz-sz-sz-sz-i/.

Second, va*gy*ok vs va*dj*ok... Let's see.

- va*gy*ok /I am/ vs
*- *va*dj*og (a possible compound meaning 'game law' or 'the law relevant to wild animals' from vad + jog.)

In *vagyok*, we have [gy], a single consonant.
In *vadjog*, we have _hasonulás_ or _assimilation_,  so depending on the speed of speech, it could be either pronounced as  /vad-jog/ (just like vad + jog after one another) or as /vaggyog/ where  we have [gy:]; this therefore is a "long" or double "gy". -- Normally,  this very strong assimilation is considered less than educated.

So, yes, we hear the difference:

- */gy/* is not a _sequence_ of */d/ + /j/*;
- when, on the other hand, */d/* and */j/* follow one another, they MAY assimilate into a double */gy:/*, just like ké*z*+*sz*őr assimilates into a double */sz/* or /ké*sz-sz*őr/ and not into a single */sz/* or /ké*sz*őr/.

Examples:
*vadjárás* (a path used by wild animals) may be pronounced as /va*d + j*árás/ or as /va*ggy*árás/ with *[gy:]*;
ha*dj*árat (military campaign) may be pronounced as /ha*d + j*árat/ or as /ha*ggy*árat/ with *[gy:]*.

Because assimilation doubles the sound, va*gy*ok is always different from any word that has a *d* and a *j* one after the other as they result in *[gy:]* instead of *[gy]*.

Similarly:

while apá*c*a (nun) has a simple */c/*,
há*tsz*él (wind blowing from your back) may be pronounced either as hát + szél vithout assimilation (a bit "too correct"), or
as há*cc*él with a double /c:/ (a bit too "uneducated"),
or in between the two.

*A.*


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## Rallino

Wow ~ that was more informative than I had expected! This really clears things up. Thank you, Ateesh, for this _awesomesauce_ guide into the Hungarian phonetics! 

And, thank you, francis, for giving an example that I, myself, failed to provide for the situation.


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## Ateesh6800

Believe me, I've been through this with Spanish, what with all the y/ll consonants and their differences across all the accents... 

I asked the same types of questions: so would "allá" sound the same as "ahiá" if there was such a word? Or as "ayá"?  And of course all the different answers... 

Glad to have helped somewhat.

*A.*


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## Ateesh6800

I think it's an editing error: "gyújt" and "gyűjt" belong together; "atya" and "agya" also belong together; but "atya" does not mean "gyűjt".


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## Olivier0

Ateesh6800 said:


> I'm really interested to see if the example helps the party posting the original question.


So cisarro, does the _queso_ example help, are you among the Chilean natives who pronounce this with a beginning like _tyúk_ in the sound files?


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## francisgranada

Ateesh6800 said:


> ...   In *vagyok*, we have [gy], a single consonant.
> In *vadjog*, we have _hasonulás_ or _assimilation_,  so depending on the speed of speech, it could be either pronounced as  /vad-jog/ (just like vad + jog after one another) or as /vaggyog/ where  we have [gy:]; this therefore is a "long" or double "gy". -- Normally,  this very strong assimilation is considered less than educated....



I'd I like to add that, according to my observations, the separate pronounciation od the *d* and the adjacent *j* occurs in case of compound words, thus we tend to pronounce _hadjárat_, _vadjog _... like (or near to) ha*d+j*árat and va*d+j*og. 

But in other situations, e.g. in case of verbal endings like in a_dja,_ _adjon _...the degree of the natural assimilation seems to me higher, thus the result is (almost) a*gy:*a, a*gy:*on and (perhaps) never *a*d+j*a, *a*d+j*on (I think, independently on the education).


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## Akitlosz

Palatals in Hungarian:

gy = d+j = dj = /ɟ͡ʝ/
*ly = l+j = lj = /ʎ/*
ny = n+j = nj = /ɲ/
ty = t+j = tj = /c͡ç/


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