# Had've been



## Adam Cruge

There is no context, so please people don't ask for any context or anything else. I just came across a book and I just got this sentence, nothing extra...

"And now I bet she wishes it had've been" - A.Munno, 1993

That book just say that this type of construction is normal in Australian and North American English.
Could anyone please explain the meaning of this sentence ?
Thanking you in advance....


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## Sprache

It means nothing. I'm American and I can certainly say that that construction is not normal in American English at all. And somehow I doubt that it's common in Australia.


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## Adam Cruge

But so was written in that book...Any idea ?


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## Adam Cruge

had've been = had have been
Any idea now ?

From another forum I got it:
I would have done that too if I had have been going to a barbecue. = I would do that too if I were going to a barbecue.

Please comment


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## Nunty

Adam Cruge said:


> But so was written in that book...Any idea ?



What book? Please cite your source.


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## Adam Cruge

Modern English Usage by Fowler


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## GreenWhiteBlue

I don't understand the comparison you seem to be trying to make between "it _*had have been*_", which is odd and largely meaningless, and "I _*would have done*_ that", which is a completely different structure, and one that is completely natural, standard, and grammatical.

"Had have" and "would have" are not the same thing, just as "had" and "would" are not the same word.


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## Bigote Blanco

Adam Cruge said:


> There is no context, so please people don't ask for any context or anything else. I just came across a book and I just got this sentence, nothing extra...
> 
> "And now I bet she wishes it had've been" - A.Munno, 1993
> 
> That book just say that this type of construction is normal in Australian and North American English.
> Could anyone please explain the meaning of this sentence ?
> Thanking you in advance....


 
I would suggest that the grammar is incorrect. However, I would also say that I have heard this, "slang" in conversation.  Although, I never would use this "had've been" as it is without doubt incorrect, I would say it means "And now I bet she wishes it would have been/or had been"

Example of the poor usage:
I heard you won a million dollars in the lottery.
I wish it had've been a a million. I only won two dollars. 
(I wish it had been a million or I wish it would have been a million.)

would have = had've  Quite understandable, but very poor English 

Bigote


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## Nunty

Bigote Blanco said:


> I would suggest that the grammar is incorrect. However, I would also say that I have heard this, "slang" in conversation.  Although, I never would use this "had've been" as it is without doubt incorrect, I would say it means "And now I bet she wishes it would have been/or had been"
> 
> Example of the poor usage:
> I heard you won a million dollars in the lottery.
> I wish it had've been a a million. I only won two dollars.
> (I wish it had been a million or I wish it would have been a million.)
> 
> would have = had've  Quite understandable, but very poor English
> 
> Bigote



Interesting example. When I read it, I "heard" it as though being pronounced "I wish it'd've been" and I immediately interpreted it as "I wish it _would have been_".


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## Thomas Tompion

Nunty said:


> Interesting example. When I read it, I "heard" it as though being pronounced "I wish it'd've been" and I immediately interpreted it as "I wish it _would have been_".


Interestingly, in BE, I could not say "_I wish it would have been" _- it would have to be _I wish it had been_. I think this is a difference between AE and BE - I've certainly been surprised as what Americans say to express this idea.

I've also come across this _'had've' _(e.g. _I wish I had've been...) _in BE. It is quite common, and it pains me. It would seem to derive more naturally from the BE form than from the AE one. I suspect that the correct_ I wish I had_ sounds too short for many ears.


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## Bigote Blanco

Nunty said:


> Interesting example. When I read it, I "heard" it as though being pronounced "I wish it'd've been" and I immediately interpreted it as "I wish it _would have been_".


 
Hello Nunty,

Your answer is also interesting-- "I wish it would have been".  I was severely punished on the forum a day or so ago for writing this phrase, rather than,  "I wish it had been.." 

I was told it was poor English, and I should'nt had've used it.  I'm pleased to read you also use this phrase. No, not this immediate phrase, but the one underlined above.  

Bigote


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## Nunty

Bigote Blanco said:


> Hello Nunty,
> 
> Your answer is also interesting-- "I wish it would have been".  I was severely punished on the forum a day or so ago for writing this phrase, rather than,  "I wish it had been.."
> 
> I was told it was poor English, and I should'nt had've used it.  I'm pleased to read you also use this phrase. No, not this immediate phrase, but the one underlined above.
> 
> Bigote



I suppose that if I were writing formally I would write "I wish it had been", but in my natural speech(*) I quite easily say "I wish it would have been". So bite me. 


(*) On the other hand, no one has yet nominated me for Grammar Queen of the Universe.


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## Thomas Tompion

Bigote Blanco said:


> Hello Nunty,
> 
> Your answer is also interesting-- "I wish it would have been". I was severely punished on the forum a day or so ago for writing this phrase, rather than, "I wish it had been.."
> 
> I was told it was poor English, and I should'nt had've used it. I'm pleased to read you also use this phrase. No, not this immediate phrase, but the one underlined above.
> 
> Bigote


Hi Bigote,

I think the person who 'punished' you appended this to the 'punishment' in justification. What did you think of it? It's left me wondering if _I wish it would have been_ is as wrong in AE as it is in BE. Isn't the Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation an AE source?


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## Bigote Blanco

Hey Thomas,
Well, I read it and,  in fact, appreciated it being sent.  Then, wondered about the author and where she got her information. Or, was it just her humble opinion. I don't know the answer to that, yet.  I have published, and I certainly wouldn't take it as carved in stone anything I've written-or anyone else for that matter. 
The person who offended me, most likely was very correct(but not very gentle) in correcting my grammar. However, in defense, her source did say it was commonly used in English. Like I said, I'm hear to learn and teach -what an extraordinary tool this forum is.


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## Adam Cruge

So the conclusion is that *had've* is bad and rare construction but still understandable rarely used in some places...
And that *had've* = would have been / had been

But in the 11th post BB wrote a line :  _I was told it was poor English, and I should'nt had've used it.
_But in this sentence the use of *had've* is quite confusing...
Need further help.......


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## Nunty

I think that second sentence was meant as a joke.


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## Alxmrphi

> I suppose that if I were writing formally I would write "I wish it had been", but in my natural speech(*) I quite easily say "I wish it would have been". So bite me.


I'm also aware that it's wrong, but I do use it, as do many many other people (incorrectly of course) in BE. It's always in it's contracted version and the '*have'* is always just like a short '*a*' or *'ve*.

I know some people almost have heart attacks when they hear it, but growing up as I did in the "instant messaging" age, I am perfectly accustomed to reading / hearing it, it was only about 12 months ago I realised it was not a perfectly normal and grammatical construction.

I think in a way it's normal to complain about decay of language, I once read an article about someone in the 60's complaining about 'today's language' and how much better it was in the 30's, and another quote from someone in the 30's saying how much it annoyed him that the 'golden standard' from the 1910's (or somewhere around then) and it went back 200 years of quotes of people saying exactly the same thing..with someone complaining about how it had got worse and another person saying that form was the norm (a few decades later) it's a perpetual cycle and there will be things that I complain about probably in 20 years that the youth of _then_ will not find unusual at all, but who will be complaining 20/30 years later that the English of my time had been corrupted (you get the picture).


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## Bigote Blanco

But in the 11th post BB wrote a line : _I was told it was poor English, and *I should'nt had've used it.*_

"*Very poor English*!!  (in this case, it meant "I should not have used it) Clearly, I shouldnt've used it! 

Hey, guys. I didn't start this thread! I simply tried to answer a question.

Bigote


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## panjandrum

Try If I would have known vs if I had known


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## Adam Cruge

May I write like this:
"If I were you, I had've never let her go."


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## Alxmrphi

Adam Cruge said:


> May I write like this:
> "If I were you, I had've never let her go."


 
This is a conditional sentence, it requires "I *would* not have let her go" (I _wouldn't_ have let her go), a difference structure to 'had'.


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## Thomas Tompion

Adam Cruge said:


> May I write like this:
> "If I were you, I had've never let her go."


We aren't here to stop you doing such things, Adam, but in my view to be correct you shouldn't say 

_If I were you, I had've never let her go."_

I wonder which of the two (below) you meant?:

_If I had been you, I wouldn't have let her go._
_If I were you, I wouldn't let her go._

I don't think people would object to either of these, but they do mean different things.


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## Adam Cruge

I wanted to mean "_If I were you, I wouldn't let her go._"


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## Thomas Tompion

Adam Cruge said:


> I wanted to mean "_If I were you, I wouldn't let her go._"


That's interesting, because had you used your sentence, I'd have taken you to mean the first - _If I had been you, I wouldn't have let her go._


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## Adam Cruge

I just want to mean "_If I were you, I wouldn't let her go._" by this sentence " "_If I were you, I had've never let her go."

_Is it possible ?


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## Thomas Tompion

Adam Cruge said:


> I just want to mean "_If I were you, I wouldn't let her go._" by this sentence " "_If I were you, I had've never let her go."_
> 
> Is it possible ?


No, Adam, not if you wish to be correct.  You must use correct forms to avoid ambiguity.


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## Alxmrphi

In that sense it makes sense if it was “I’d have never let her go”, the apostrophe + d in English either means “would” or “had” so I think you’re mixing them up a bit. In speech they sound similar so..

“If I were you, I’d have (‘v) never”  ........[ I would have = *I'd have* *('v)* ]
“If I were you, I had’ve never” 

So in the spoken language,  it sounds extremely similar, but you’re spelling it wrong, as “I’d (have) / (‘v)” here is “*I* woul*d* have” though this is the same sound produced when saying “I’d” where it means “*I *ha*d*” and I think that is where you are getting mixed up.


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## Adam Cruge

Alxmrphi said:


> In that sense it makes sense if it was “I’d have never let her go”, the apostrophe + d in English either means “would” or “had” so I think you’re mixing them up a bit. In speech they sound similar so..
> 
> “If I were you, I’d have (‘v) never”  ........[ I would have = *I'd have* *('v)* ]
> “If I were you, I had’ve never”
> 
> So in the spoken language,  it sounds extremely similar, but you’re spelling it wrong, as “I’d (have) / (‘v)” here is “*I* woul*d* have” though this is the same sound produced when saying “I’d” where it means “*I *ha*d*” and I think that is where you are getting mixed up.



No i am not mixing it up. I am well aware of what I want to mean. But regarding previous explanation of "had've", I tried my own sentence...


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## Pedro y La Torre

I come across this one quite regularly:

If I had've been there, I would have [said/done...] for _If I had to have been there, I would have [said/done...]_


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## GreenWhiteBlue

Adam, "had have" is always wrong.  You therefore cannot use "had've" correctly in any sentence at all.


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## JamesM

Adam Cruge said:


> May I write like this:
> "If I were you, I had've never let her go."


 
As the others have said, there is no way to make "had've" work.  There is a very similar sentence, though:

"If I were you, I'd have never let her go."  

It's really a mixture of tenses but I've heard it used in speech.  The correct form (as far as I know) would be:

"If I had been you, I'd have never let her go."

I wonder sometimes if people are hearing "I'd have" (a contraction for I would have) and somehow converting it to "I had have" or "I had've" in their minds.


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## Alxmrphi

> I wonder sometimes if people are hearing "I'd have" (a contraction for I would have) and somehow converting it to "I had have" or "I had've" in their minds.


 
Personally I believe that's exactly what is going on.


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## Bigote Blanco

Adam Cruge said:


> May I write like this:
> "If I were you, I had've never let her go."


 
You can say it and it will be completely understood.  BUT, as mentioned in previous posts, Never Write It!  It terrible English slang.  Id've(I would have) written more, but we've beat this topic to death.


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## Phil-Olly

Adam Cruge said:


> May I write like this:
> "If I were you, I had've never let her go."



No you shouldn't.

"If I were you, I would never have let her go."
or even:
 "  ....I'd have never let her go."

The common though incorrect use of "had" goes with the "if" clause.


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## Thomas Tompion

Bigote Blanco said:


> You can say it and it will be completely understood.[...]


 
Completely understood as meaning which, Bigote?

_If I had been you, I wouldn't have let her go.
If I were you, I wouldn't let her go._

Perhaps there are other choices, too.


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## Ynez

It is supposed to be incorrect, but I have just found out that the use is not new (Merriam-Webster's dictionary of English usage):

http://books.google.es/books?id=2yJ...ish#v=onepage&q="had've been" english&f=false

If you can't see that link, write in books.google.com

"Had've been" english

It is the second entry, at the end of page 755 and beginning of 756. They call it there *plupluperfect*. 




Fowler must have some comment about it in his book, because the book shows when searching

"Had've been" fowler

but it is not possible to read it.


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## JulianStuart

I've heard it used in one of the least favourite of utterings I've ever heard:
"I wouldn't of went even if I had've been asked!" overheard on a bus in rural Buckinghamshire over 30 years ago.

Its use is definitely not new; it has been grating for many years; that does not make it "correct" or even bearable


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## Bigote Blanco

Adam Cruge said:


> May I write like this:
> "If I were you, I had've never let her go."


 
As mentioned before, this is poor English slang and not appropriate in written language. It is also considered poor spoken language.

"If I were you, I would never have let her go."  I would suggest you stick to learning proper English and,  at a later date, change it if you so desire.  Improperly spoken English, which I am often guilty of,  quite often reflects negatively on the speaker.


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## Thomas Tompion

Bigote Blanco said:


> As mentioned before, this is poor English slang and not appropriate in written language. It is also considered poor spoken language.
> 
> "If I were you, I would never have let her go." I would suggest you stick to learning proper English and, at a later date, change it if you so desire. Improperly spoken English, which I am often guilty of, quite often reflects negatively on the speaker.


 Hello, Bigote.  This seems to suggest that you consider_ If I were you, I would never have let her go _to be correct.


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## Nunty

For many speakers of AE _If I were you I would never have let her go_ is perfectly acceptable. How would you say it?


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## JamesM

Nunty said:


> For many speakers of AE _If I were you I would never have let her go_ is perfectly acceptable. How would you say it?


 
For this speaker of AE, it's a problem of tenses.

To me it should be:

If I were you I would never let her go.

or

If I had been you I would have never let her go.
(or)
Had I been you I would have never let her go.



I've heard "If I were you I would have never let her go" but it always sounds odd to me, as if the person is saying "If I were you (now) I would have never let her go (then)". The time sequence is odd.


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## Nunty

I understand what you are saying, James, but in casual speech I have no problem with it.


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## Thomas Tompion

Nunty said:


> For many speakers of AE _If I were you I would never have let her go_ is perfectly acceptable. How would you say it?


I imagine we'd say _If I had been you, I would never have let her go._ One could elide the_ I had_ to _I'd,_ of course_._

_If I were you_ we'd follow with_ I'd never let her go._


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## Pedro y La Torre

Nunty said:


> I understand what you are saying, James, but in casual speech I have no problem with it.



Nor do I. It sounds perfectly fine to me.


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## Aidanriley

I would say, "If I were you, I never would've let her go". The past perfect sounds funky to me in this case.


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## Thomas Tompion

I think James puts it very well in his post 41. I agree with him entirely. I wouldn't expect a careful speaker to say_ If I were you I would have never let her go, _and I don't think altering the position of the _never_ gets us over the problem of the inappropriate tense sequencing.


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## Aidanriley

Alxmrphi said:


> Hi Aiden, this is not the past perfect, it's what is taught as 'modal in the past', if it was 'had have' then it would be past perfect, but here it is 'would have'.


 
I was talking about this:
If I had been you ...


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## Thomas Tompion

Alxmrphi said:


> Hi Aiden, this is not the past perfect, it's what is taught as 'modal in the past', if it was 'had have' then it would be past perfect, but here it is 'would have'.


You've got me puzzled here, Alx.

I see it as:

_I have had_ - present perfect
_I had had_ - past perfect.

I thought what Aiden was objecting to was the past perfect (I've underlined it below) in

_If I had been you, I would not have etc..._

After all, he said he would use the other formula.  Perhaps I misread it.


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## Alxmrphi

Woops, I wrote the wrong thing, I thought "I wouldn't have" was being referred to as the past perfect. I did mean to write 'had had' but I was on the phone when I wrote it so my mistake!



> I would say, "If I were you, I never would've let her go". The past perfect sounds funky to me in this case


 
It was just because you said 'in *this* case' and there was no past perfect in there so I assumed you labelled 'never would have let' as the past perfect. If you meant 'If I had been' then I would have understood, I just took your quote as what you were referring to! 

Re-reading it, it makes perfect sense now I know what you mean.
Jumping back on topic, grammars say that the past perfect (3rd conditional) would be required, since it's a closed event in the past to which you can't relate to the present (i.e. if I were you)..

However I find it normal in speech because I hear it all the time...


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## jalaluddin

much interesting conversation. like it.


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