# Language changes respect?



## kipcc

Hey everyone,

I've been taking French for quite some time now, and without even thinking I use "madame" and "monsieur" second-naturedly. When learning French I was taught that it was the polite thing to do. I use it mostly if an adult asks a yes/no question, and I'd answer with "oui, madame" for example. However, in English I was not raised to use sir and ma'am, I'm not sure either of those words has ever popped out of my mouth! So, when I talk to my French teacher in French, I use "madame" in conversation, yet when we're speaking in English, I do not address her as "ma'am." Anyone else find the same? I think it's interesting how a change in language changes your whole way of treating people.


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## MarX

Hello!

In Indonesian I'm also used to say *Bapak*, *Ibu*, or one of many other forms when addressing people.

It was rather awkward for me not to use such words in German.

What I notice is that I also use more gestures when speaking Spanish. Something I don't do much with Indonesian or German.

Gruss,


MarK


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## CrepiIlLupo

In all of the languages which I am learning, I certainly use polite forms when addressing strangers/adults, etc.  In Italian, for example, I always address my teacher as "Signore".  

In English, however, I do this too, and have said "sir" and "ma'am" on many an occasion.  I agree with you though that these exact two terms aren't used as much in English as their equivalents are in other languages.  I mostly say specifically "sir" or "ma'am" when I am talking to a complete stranger as a sign of respect (i.e., excuse me sir, but do you have the time?)

I think what you may be missing though is that Madame and Monsieur, if i'm not mistaken, also take the place of the titles "Mr.", and "Mrs." in English.  I don't know about you, but I certainly use Mr. and Mrs. in English in nearly every situation which merits polite conversation with an adult.  I address all of my friend's parents this way, all of my teachers, etc.  Of course when other titles are applicable (Dr. being the most common), I use these as well.  

In short, in Italian at least I like to think of Signore and Signora as not only meaning Sir and Madam, which in my opinion are being outdated, but also meaning Mr. and Mrs.


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## kipcc

Yes, you are correct that Madame/Monsieur can mean Mr./Mrs. when a name is put at the end. I was aware of that. However in general I'm just more polite. Yes I use Mr./Mrs. with adults in English, but I don't usually say "Yes ma'am" or even "Yes Mrs. So and So." In French I am so much more likely to say "Oui, madame, merci madame, bonjour madame, etc" I take Spanish as well,  however for some reason the usage of "señora/señor" has not been drilled into my head as it has in French. I don't really know why, but that's just the way it works with me!


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## palomnik

Kipcc, if you want a real mind-boggling experience of how your language will change depending on how you treat people, you should take up Japanese.

Stated briefly, Japanese changes depending on whether you are talking to a superior or an inferior, as well as whether you're talking to a member of your "in group" or not. The changes work both ways, i.e. you will use different forms to describe both the other person's actions, and your own actions.  The changes are extensive and pervasive; you use different verbs and even different nouns in some cases, depending on the situation. The gradations seem to be almost infinite when you're an outsider learning the language. There are some forms that are considered so rarefiedly formal that you would only use them with the emperor, and some that are so impolite that you can only use them when you talk to a dog, or maybe when you're talking to yourself.

I've never encountered anything quite like it elsewhere, although Farsi is a distant second by comparison.


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## panjabigator

Palomnik, could you elaborate more on Farsi?


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## MarX

palomnik said:


> Kipcc, if you want a real mind-boggling experience of how your language will change depending on how you treat people, you should take up Japanese.
> 
> Stated briefly, Japanese changes depending on whether you are talking to a superior or an inferior, as well as whether you're talking to a member of your "in group" or not. The changes work both ways, i.e. you will use different forms to describe both the other person's actions, and your own actions. The changes are extensive and pervasive; you use different verbs and even different nouns in some cases, depending on the situation. The gradations seem to be almost infinite when you're an outsider learning the language. There are some forms that are considered so rarefiedly formal that you would only use them with the emperor, and some that are so impolite that you can only use them when you talk to a dog, or maybe when you're talking to yourself.
> 
> I've never encountered anything quite like it elsewhere, although Farsi is a distant second by comparison.


The case of Japanese reminds me of Javanese, where you have different sets of words depending upon who's talking to whom.
I think only Central Javanese people have a good Sprachgefühl about these differences.


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## Musical Chairs

When I just started taking French, I thought maybe I could think of "vous" as the kind of formal speech one uses in Japanese but then I learned that "vous" in French is not nearly as formal as formal Japanese speech so I don't use it in the same way. Japanese (my first language) is the most formal language I've encountered so far, though I hear other Asian languages like Vietnamese are similar. The Japanese language is only a part of how Japanese culture is just a lot more complex in general. The Japanese are very conscious of gift-giving and returning favors, and there is a certain feeling attached to giving and accepting money that doesn't exist in the US. I don't think it's enough for English speakers (who know only English) just to memorize which kinds of speech you use with certain people to really feel what is being meant by it.

I do think it's funny that English is the only language I know of so far that doesn't really have formal speech (even though there are words and ways of saying things that sound more formal than others). I think as a result, there's a more relaxed social atmosphere in the US. For example, when you see a stranger, you're less likely to treat and think of the person differently just because of his or her age. There's a feeling that people are more equal.

Edit: This makes me wonder how it's different in the UK even though they speak English there too. I've always had the impression that there's a more pronounced social hierarchy there than in the US but maybe this is because of the many things I've read and heard about the royal family.


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## Lilla My

I'd a strange experience in Norwegian : I used "De" ("vous") in a letter and after I told her, my teacher said it was wrong and maybe the one I wrote to would be offended !

Indeed, the normal way of adressing people in Norwegian is "du" ("tu"), De is regarded as too formal. For me who is french, it was really strange and a little bit difficult to adapt myself !


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## palomnik

panjabigator said:


> Palomnik, could you elaborate more on Farsi?


 
Gator, I haven't looked at Farsi for years, but I know that there is an entire level of polite speech that makes use of different verbs depending on whom you are adressing.

I'll pull out my notes tonight and have a look.


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## palomnik

Musical Chairs said:


> The Japanese language is only a part of how Japanese culture is just a lot more complex in general. The Japanese are very conscious of gift-giving and returning favors, and there is a certain feeling attached to giving and accepting money that doesn't exist in the US. I don't think it's enough for English speakers (who know only English) just to memorize which kinds of speech you use with certain people to really feel what is being meant by it.


 
Musical, I couldn't agree with you more.  You can't just memorize the forms and expect to get away with it.

Not least of the problems is the fact that "respect" tends to mean something different in the West.  In Japanese formal speech may be used just as much to mark off that the person being spoken to is an outsider as it is used to show respect.

In another vein, of course, the gradations of language in Japanese also take the place of verb endings and even pronouns as used in other languages - the type and degree of politeness generally indicates pretty clearly to whom one is speaking, and who or what is being discussed.


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## Dr. Quizá

I don't change my respect forms in other languages. I don't think I could be able to do it naturally, but I usually wonder how do my foreign customers take this since we Spaniards are not so "ceremonious" as most of them (including other Spanish speakers).


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## kipcc

Wow, so from what I'm hearing, this way of speech is present in many, many languages. Which makes me wonder...perhaps using "vous" and "tu" (or whatever the equivalents may be in other languages) does not signify more respect, as we are only using it to speak the language correctly, right? I mean in English I say "you" to everyone; we are all on an equal level (well more or less, I know there are still other things such as Mr./Mrs. etc), yet for the most part, it's much more even. However if I were to speak to those same people in another language which uses the vous/tu distinctions, I would use them accordingly. So, is it respect or is it just a different mannerism? Because really...how can you respect someone you don't even know, such as a stranger? Hmmm just some thoughts...


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## kipcc

palomnik said:


> Musical, I couldn't agree with you more.  You can't just memorize the forms and expect to get away with it.
> 
> Not least of the problems is the fact that "respect" tends to mean something different in the West.  In Japanese formal speech may be used just as much to mark off that the person being spoken to is an outsider as it is used to show respect.
> 
> In another vein, of course, the gradations of language in Japanese also take the place of verb endings and even pronouns as used in other languages - the type and degree of politeness generally indicates pretty clearly to whom one is speaking, and who or what is being discussed.



As for memorizing...it's not memorized for me; it's natural. I've been taking French since I was three, I've been to France a few times, had French friends, etc. So, when I speak with an elder, and use vous, I do mean it.


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## Musical Chairs

"So, is it respect or is it just a different mannerism? Because really...how can you respect someone you don't even know, such as a stranger?"

The respect you show in Japanese is not the kind of respect you may have for your parents or boyfriend. I don't even think the French formal form is exactly like the Japanese formal form. Sometimes when one would tutoyer someone in French, the formal way would be used in Japanese for the same person.

"As for memorizing...it's not memorized for me; it's natural. I've been taking French since I was three, I've been to France a few times, had French friends, etc. So, when I speak with an elder, and use vous, I do mean it."

For French you don't need to memorize it because the formal way of speaking is much simpler. In Japanese, there are degrees of formality and different tones to use. It depends on how much you know the person, how old they are compared to you, what relationship you have to them (you can be formal even with people you've known for a long time), what the person has done for you or your family, if you are male or female, and other things. Also, it's not just grammar that's formal but also which words you use. There is a Japanese way of knowing what the person is to you and how you need to present yourself. Many times there is body language involved like bowing (different kinds for greetings, apologies, saying thank you) and nodding your head.

Also in Japanese, there is no such thing as asking someone if they want to "tutoyer" like in French. You just know and that's it. It would be very weird to ask to speak informally and it never happens.


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## panjabigator

So how do sibling and parental relations work in Japanese?


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## SpiceMan

panjabigator said:


> So how do sibling and parental relations work in Japanese?


Just like everywhere else: 
Nowadays kids talk to their parents colloquially, but it used to be respectful in the past.

And talking about Japanese... In Spanish if you address someone with respect they reply to you in the same tone. (Except old people addressing very young people). So you usually have either two speakers using respectful wording, or two speakers using colloquial language.

But in Japanese you just _stick_ to what your position requires. So your boss/someone old/etc talks to you colloquially and you speak respectfully no matter what.

I've been in Japan for more than a year now, and got used to it, but at first it was very unsettling addressing someone respectfully and being replied colloquially. I would just unconsciously start speaking colloquially, since I was used to speak with the _same level of respect_ I'm being addressed with.

I didn't find Japanese levels of respect difficult at first (and do not now, actually) in grammar aspects, word usage, etc... but it _was_ difficult to get used to it because of its differences with Spanish' system, hearing different levels of respect all mixed up in a conversation depending on the speaker, etc.


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## MarX

I never say "you" to my parents and sister.

In Jakartan Indonesian there are at least three words for "you": *kamu*, *(e)loe*, and *anda*. There are other words as well: *kau*, *engkau*, *dikau*, *ente*, etc. But it would never occur to me to use any of those words to address my parents and sister.

MarK


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## palomnik

Regarding usages in Farsi, there is some similarity to the situation in Japanese although not nearly as widespread.

Like Japanese, certain situations a specific verb is required when speaking with a superior. The commonest case is the verb "to speak"; the "neutral" verb for this is _gereftan_ ; the "polite" form used to refer to another person's speaking would be _farmudan _"to command." To refer to one's own speaking, you would use _arz kordan_ "to beg." _Farmudan_ can also be used in place of _kordan _"to do" when referring to the actions of a superior.

Coming, going and being have special polite forms too - _tashrif avardan_ in place of _amadan_ "to come", _tashrif bordan_ in place of _raftan_ "to go", and _tashrif dashtan_ in place of _budan_ "to be (somewhere)."

In the realm of pronouns, it is common to adress a man as _agha_ "gentleman" in place of _shoma_ "you." (Note that _shoma_ is the second person plural and the equivalent of French _vous, _and consequently a polite form already). This is not really so far a stretch from adressing a man in the third person as _Monsieur _instead of the second person plural in French, but there is yet another level above this - the form _jenab e ali_ - literally "your excellency", but a relatively common form in Farsi compared to western languages, and not limited to officials. 

The corollary of these polite second person usages is using the word _bande_ "slave" to refer to oneself, with the first person form of the verb. This doesn't resemble western usages, except in a phrase like "your humble servant" in English. Formal usages extend to the third person as well; the third person plural _ishan _is used in place of the third person singular _u_ to show respect.

There are other usages as well, such as several different ways to say "thank you", depending on who you're thanking and what you're thanking them for, but again Japanese does the same, and much more extensively.

I expect that Panjabigator will point out that Urdu uses several of these forms, especially the ones with _tashrif _in them, and of course it's true, but I think the Urdu usages came from Farsi originally.


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## panjabigator

As Palomnik correctly states, Farsi has lent a good bit of its formal statements to Urdu. From _gereftan_ comes the Urdu word for conversation, /guftuguu/.  /arz karnaa/ is to request, I believe, but I'm not too sure.  /aghaa/ is a polite term of address for a man, and I have a good friend of mine from a Lahori Panjabi speaking family who addresses her uncle as /aghaa jii/.  

Urdu also uses the word /bande/ in the same sense as Farsi does.  I cite a conversation from Ruth Laila Shmidt's  Urdu: An Essential Grammar for an example: 


> A:  /janaab kii taariif/?
> B:  /naaciiz bande ko abiid kahte hai.n/


Literally, /janaab kii taariif/ translates to 'your honor's praise' but the phrase is pragmatically asking for the other persons name.  The response corresponds to 'this worthless slave is referred to as Abiid.'  So one speaker A praises speaker B while B humbly introduces himself through some form of self abasement, a typical formula of conversation in Urdu.

On a side note, Panjabi has extracted this definition of slave and uses /bande/ to refer to the average person.  Example: /kinne bande san/?  Translation: How many people were there?


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## Outsider

kipcc said:


> So, is it respect or is it just a different mannerism? Because really...how can you respect someone you don't even know, such as a stranger?


How can you _not_ respect them? They haven't lost your trust yet! 

"Respect" here means deference, of course, not admiration.


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## kipcc

Outsider said:


> How can you _not_ respect them? They haven't lost your trust yet!
> 
> "Respect" here means deference, of course, not admiration.



I was always under the impression that if you respect someone, they have to earn it. It's not just going to come automatically. Showing respect however, does come automatically. There's a fine difference, but it's there. From what I've been taught at least...


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## HUMBERT0

kipcc said:


> I was always under the impression that if you respect someone, they have to earn it. It's not just going to come automatically. Showing respect however, does come automatically. There's a fine difference, but it's there. From what I've been taught at least...


 I was taught differently, I don’t need for someone to have to earn my respect, that’s suppose to be a given, a person has an inherent priceless value just because of the fact they’re a human being, a person commands respect. “You’re respected until proven otherwise ”, showing respect is putting in action or acknowledging the respect you have for other people.


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## Nanon

Languages does not "change respect" in my opinion. However, external signs of deference depend much on cultural, and even social, aspects.

Personally, I choose to adjust to local usage. It does not mean that I am more respectful towards a person with whom I use a polite form than when I am less formal. In my professional context, respect also has to do with explaining well, giving accurate responses, replying on time, being patient, not only with external forms of deference. Yet in some parts of the world, external forms of respect in language, behaviour, gestures... are extremely important.

Here is a thread about a rather systematic use of polite forms in the Slavic forum. Over-formality, over-respectfulness, or a cultural habit?


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## Outsider

kipcc said:


> I was always under the impression that if you respect someone, they have to earn it. It's not just going to come automatically. Showing respect however, does come automatically. There's a fine difference, but it's there. From what I've been taught at least...


Perhaps "politeness" is a more suitable term than "respect". I agree that one does not necessarily respect strangers until one gets to know them, but I think we are all taught to be polite to others, regardless of whether we respect them or not, especially strangers.


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## jonquiliser

kipcc said:


> I was always under the impression that if you respect someone, they have to earn it. It's not just going to come automatically. Showing respect however, does come automatically. There's a fine difference, but it's there. From what I've been taught at least...



I would have it the other way round: that someone has to earn disrespect, and tha respect should be a given.


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## Etcetera

kipcc said:


> think it's interesting how a change in language changes your whole way of treating people.


Hi Kipcc.

When I speak Russian, I address people by their names or names+patronyms (it's the formal way to address people in Russian). When I speak English, I use the name only or Mr/Mrs/Miss + surname. 

Russian do have several words which are more or less equivalent to the English Mr/Mrs or Frehcn Madam/Monsiuer, but they're used very, very rarely.


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## panjabigator

jonquiliser said:


> I would have it the other way round: that someone has to earn disrespect, and that respect should be a given.



Same for me.  When I meet someone, be it a stranger or a family friend, I am very respectful and polite to them.  I believe that is the proper thing to do, but no one is really disagreeing over that.  

Their actions are the ones that earn them my disrespect!


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## palomnik

I'm beginning to think that the difference here isn't in the linguistic forms, but in the definition of "politeness" in each culture; it is inextricably tied up with concepts of social class and in-group/out-group behavior.

In many cultures it's taken as a foregone conclusion that you don't need to feel respect toward an individual to be polite to them; in fact, you may intensely dislike someone and still use "polite" forms when talking to them.

Apropos of this and following up on Lilla My's comments about Norwegian, there is a related but unusual problem with Norwegian _De _(and Swedish _Ni_) in that while they are formal forms, they traditionally are not considered to be respectful - they are merely forms to use when you don't know how else to address somebody, and some people will resent being addressed in that fashion; they are not a true translation of French _Vous_.  Traditionally, the respectful form is to say _Herr _or _Fru _plus whatever title somebody is entitled to use.


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## rodoke

kipcc said:


> I think it's interesting how a change in language changes your whole way of treating people.


I'd say that it's the other way around--that language will change to reflect the way people already are treating one another--or at least the way they _want_ to. In English, what became of thee/thou is a good example of this. I'd call the  success of the "de-genderfication" of a lot of professions' names a more modern example.

You could point to "counterexamples", but I'd point more to certain groups of people using language as a convenient justification for attitudes they already have. For example, _ain't_ was a perfectly fine word to use until it became identified with the Cockney (working-class) dialect, which led to it being banished from "proper English".


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