# it is a wanting



## txokarro

Hi,

I am translating: " If a woman's old enough to marry, and doesn't, she's sinning against the Lord--it's a wanting to know better than Him. 

My try: " Si una mujer tiene edad de casarse, y no lo hace, está pecando contra el Señor—Es un defecto/ imperfeción/pecado/tara saber más que Él."

Creo que "wanting" también es pecado, pero quería evitar la repetición. ¿Qué me sugerís?

Thank you


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## MHCKA

*Si una mujer esta lo suficientemente grande/vieja para casarse y no lo hace está en pecado/está cometiendo un pecado contra Dios*... (¿los pecados de cometen contra cualquier dios/entidad?, ¿no los comete uno y punto?) quizás pecado más bien sea *ofensa contra*..


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## maidinbedlam

txokarro said:


> I am translating: " If a woman's old enough to marry, and doesn't, she's sinning against the Lord--it's a wanting to know better than Him.
> My try: " Si una mujer tiene edad de casarse, y no lo hace, está pecando contra el Señor—Es un defecto/ imperfeción/pecado/tara saber más que Él."
> Creo que "wanting" también es pecado, pero quería evitar la repetición. ¿Qué me sugerís?


 
Creo que "wanting" aquí es un "deseo": ..."está pecando contra el Señor- es un deseo de saber más que Él"
Es el deseo de saber mejor que Él lo que les conviene lo que es pecado.


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## spodulike

"wanting" aquí no quiere decir "defecto" sino "querer"


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## MHCKA

-Es querer ser mejor que Él...

Puse él en mayúsculas por la función que desempeña.

*Si una mujer esta lo suficientemente grande/vieja para casarse y no lo hace está cometiendo una ofensa contra Dios- [porque] quiere ser mejor que él.*

La verdad no le hallo sentido a lo que expresa la frase, más allá de mis dudas sobre religión y entidades superiores... ¿Por qué demuestra nadie ser mejor que dios por no casarse cuando está en condiciones de hacerlo y "debe" hacerlo?

Realmente no le encuentro significado como una oración estructurada, que no me refiero al significado teológico de la frase.


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## txokarro

Ok, pero "wanting" significa también pecado, de ahí que creer saber más que Él podría considerarse un pecado.


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## The Prof

Pues, sigo pensando que tenías razón con ´un defecto´.
Cuando decimos que algo es ´wanting´, la palabra significa ´lacking´ o ´absent´.   Pero no entiendo ´_a_ wanting´ - no me dice nada, a lo mejor es un error.


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## mijoch

Hi.

"wanting"--adj.----deficient.

"want"-----noun----desire.

However, modern usage now permits that "wanting" is intepretated as "desire".

I'm wanting to kiss you---is incorrect----I want to kiss you---OK.

I doubt that Olive writing, like 100 yers ago, would have used modern colloquial forms.

I agree with The Prof. The "a" is a puzzle. It makes "wanting" sound like a noun instead of an adjective. EDIT perhaps "a wanting"-adj. phrase same as "wanting"

I understand that Olive was brought up in a missionary in small town South Africa, in a strict religious family. It's not surprising that that her written English reflects this, with its almost Biblical, very formal and complex structures. So the "a" might then have been colloquial---now it's an error.

In a practical sense----is it possible that a woman would not get married, simply in order to tell God where to get off?

I vote for "deficient/deficiente".

M.

I'm not sure that "wanting" is "pecado"----Una falta de algo--respeto, entendimiento, conciencia, etc.


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## spodulike

I believe we have to see the statement from the point of view of the writer and not the woman. The writer who is a believer would be certain that God is all-knowing. For the writer it would be impossible to _know_ more than God but it would be possible to _want_ to know more than God. So ...

To say it is a sin to know more than God does not make sense because it is an impossibilty to know more than God. To say it is a sin to want to know more than God is possible. Anyone can want to know more than God.

"a wanting" seems like archaic but perfectly valid use of English to me.

Examples
"I have a longing for ice-cream every time I walk past the shop" modern usage
"I have a hankering for the old days" modern usage
"I have a wanting to know more than you" archaic usage


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## The Prof

If archaic use allows for 'a wanting', then it should be equally logical that it could mean 'a failing / a deficiency' (but I agree that 'sin' would not be the right word - it is too strong).  
In the context in which the word is being used, I find it hard to believe that it means anything else


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## Aidanriley

I really like this form of English - 'it is a wanting' means that, if she doesn't get married when she's old enough, she is sort of 'claiming', in a way, to know better than God (as to the correct way of things). At least, that's how I understand it..

I don't see how it could mean 'a failing'. I'm not sure how you're getting that.


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## txokarro

Es querer saber más que ël.

or

Es una una falta de respeto saber más que Él.

Which is the right one?


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## Aidanriley

The first one.


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## The Prof

There lies the problem, txokarro - we English speakers can't decide! (-:


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## txokarro

If you can't, who can?


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## spodulike

¡El autor! ¡Venga el hadron supercollider!


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## Aidanriley

This is why the Bible is so vastly misunderstood. The entire thing is written this way.


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## The Prof

Aidanriley said:


> This is why the Bible is so vastly misunderstood. The entire thing is written this way.


 
Yes, text in general is very easy to mis-interpret, especially if the punctuation doesn't follow modern grammar rules. If the sentence in question were being spoken, we would almost certainly know from tone of voice, its delivery, what was meant.

Having said that about punctuation, *I'll accept that the way this sentence is punctuated makes it more likely that 'desire' is intended*. If there were a full stop instead of a dash, I would continue to argue in favour of 'a failing etc'. 

It helps to highlight just how carefully we need to think about how we write things ourselves, so that the reader interprets it as intended!


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## mijoch

I think that the problem resides in that there are two verbs "to want".

Desire and lack. Unfortunatly, the dictionaries lump them together.

So one can have nominal and adjectival gerunds with opposing meanings.

¿Que se le va a hacer?.

I still feel that in this context "wanting" is a deficiency. I find no dictionary entry where "wanting" as an adjective relates to desire. But, maybe here it's not an adjective!

Dear oh dear.

M.


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## spodulike

mijoch said:


> I think that the problem resides in that there are two verbs "to want".
> 
> Desire and lack. Unfortunatly, the dictionaries lump them together.
> 
> So one can have nominal and adjectival gerunds with opposing meanings.
> 
> ¿Que se le va a hacer?.
> 
> I still feel that in this context "wanting" is a deficiency. I find no dictionary entry where "wanting" as an adjective relates to desire. But, maybe here it's not an adjective!
> 
> Dear oh dear.
> 
> M.


 
I don´t think this is a grammatical argument "a wanting" is a gerund whichever meaning you choose.


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## Aidanriley

mijoch said:


> I think that the problem resides in that there are two verbs "to want".
> 
> Desire and lack. Unfortunatly, the dictionaries lump them together.
> 
> So one can have nominal and adjectival gerunds with opposing meanings.
> 
> ¿Que se le va a hacer?.
> 
> I still feel that in this context "wanting" is a deficiency. I find no dictionary entry where "wanting" as an adjective relates to desire. But, maybe here it's not an adjective!
> 
> Dear oh dear.
> 
> M.


 
Desire and lack? Lack means 'to want'? I'm confused.
I wouldn't think you'd find this definition in any dictionary printed recently.


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## mijoch

Hi, Aidanriley

"to want"---vi to be deficient; to fall short; to be in need.

                 vt to be destitute of; to need; to feel need of.

 "wanting"----absent; deficient.

M.


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## maidinbedlam

spodulike said:


> I don´t think this is a grammatical argument "a wanting" is a gerund whichever meaning you choose.


 
In my modest, non-native opinion, Spodulike is right. Even if it's not in dictionaries "wanting" here is a gerund functioning as a noun, as in the examples he provided "longing" would be.
"A wanting / longing to know better than Him"


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## The Prof

I thing the sentence lacks something for the 'lacking / deficiency' interpretation to be correct. It would need to read something like:
'it is (a) wanting _to believe/ to think_ one knows better than Him'. 

Without that extra verb, it is saying that knowing better than God is a deficiency, and that just doesn't make sense!

Yes, I've changed sides in this debate


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## spodulike

Let´s all hold hands and sing! Let´s face it, the woman in question is damned either way!


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## mijoch

Hi maidinbedlam.

I accept that possibility entirely. But if it's not in dictionaries, then it comes down to personal opinion, and it's not the only one.

Maybe there's a generation gap thing here. I'm used to using "want/lack" and "wanting" as an adjective, because I was taught that way.

"Somebody's been at my "hucha". There's three quid wanting. (adjective) Edit--hang on---I could say "there's three quid a wanting"----no problem.

I'm closer in years to Olive than the majority of of highly respected "foreros" 

That little "a" still bother's me. I wasn't taught that.

M.

I think that txokarro could go either way withing getting into trouble.


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## The Prof

Let´s just say that the original sentence has been found wanting!!!

And yes, that_ is_ correct usage!


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## MHCKA

txokarro said:


> Hi,
> 
> it's a wanting to know better than Him.


 
¿Entonces? quedaría en español como:

¿[porque] Es una deficiencia saber más que Él?
¿[porque] Está faltando (a un deber) por saber más que Él?
otra alternativa mucho más libre:
¿[porque] Está fallando por saberse/creerse más que Él?

Sin plantear una paradoja teológica dejo esta divagación: si Él lo sabe todo, no hay nada más que saber, porque no hay nada más, por lo tanto, no existe posibilidad de pecado... a menos que Él en realidad no lo supiera todo y entonces es un pecado saber más que Él, porque entonces alguien es más que Él, ¿y por saber más que Él sé es más? ¿no es esta aseveración el portal en sí a un pecado capital, el de la Soberbia?

Superada esta pregunta, de cualquier forma no encaja que alguien sepa más que otra entidad por el hecho de negarse a cumplir un deber... en todo caso no cumplir dicho deber es la falta en sí, es rebeldía o insurrección y... ¿a poco ambas son sabiduría?


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## The Prof

Una pequeña aclaración: _to know *better* than Him_ no significa _saber *más *que Él_, sino _creer que sus decisiones/opiniones/ideas son *mejores *que las de Él_. 

I´m not sure if this subtle difference translates well into Spanish or not, but I was wondering if maybe MHCKA´s sentence, ´creerse ´más que Él´ comes close to this?


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## MHCKA

Entonces:

*[porque] Está fallando por creerse más que Él*.

Se crée más que Él por desobedecer sus mandatos/designios... es bastante dictatorial el asunto, pero creo que hace más sentido.


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## SydLexia

As txokarro says in post #12:

Es querer saber más que él. (with a capital É)

The context continues:





> What, does she think the Lord took all that trouble in making her for nothing? It's evident He wants babies, otherwise why does He send them?


For the record, it's from 'The Story of an African Farm', not the Bible.

syd


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## MHCKA

Difiero Sydlexia, desde mi óptica:

La frase_ "querer saber más que Él"_ significa en español: el deseo o el anhelo de saber más cosas que él. Ella querría saber más cosas que Él, lo cual pudiera ser pecaminoso o no si es que este anhelo lleva implícita otra intención.

Mientras que "_creerse más que Él_" significa en español: sentirse o pensarse más que la otra persona. Ella piensa que és mejor que Él, lo cual se parece más a la Soberbia, creo.


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## SydLexia

I think you are probably right, Misha.

syd


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## gengo

I agree with those who have said that the sentence, without any other context, is virtually impossible to understand with complete certainty.  However, with the further context provided by SydLexia, the meaning now seems fairly clear to me.

_If a woman's old enough to marry, and doesn't, she's sinning against the Lord--it's a wanting to know better than Him. What, does she think the Lord took all that trouble in making her for nothing? It's evident He wants babies, otherwise why does He send them?
_
As I read it, it does indeed mean "It is a moral defect to [think that you] know better than God."  It is not very well written, but it is the kind of thing that native speakers say when speaking.  We don't always express ourselves with complete clarity in speech.


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## txokarro

So if there is no objection the translation could be: "Es un defecto creerse mejor que Él."


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## Ynez

Yo también voto por la versión Spodulike, Syd, etc. Mientras leía se me ocurrió:

_...,está pecando contra el Señor -es pretender saber más que Él_


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## MHCKA

Entonces: [porque] Es un defecto/una falla creerse más que Él.

Luego entonces, si es una defecto moral, como dice gengo, ¿que eso en el léxico de esta religión no es un pecado?


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## txokarro

No entiendo bien tu pregunta, MHCKA


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## aurilla

"Es *pretender* saber más que Dios."


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## MHCKA

Si la propuesta final de wanting se interpreta como un sustantivo entonce queda:

[porque] Es un defecto/una falla creerse más que Él...

Mi pregunta va en el sentido de que ¿esa falla o defecto no sería equiparable en el léxico teológico a un pecado?

[que de hecho fue lo primero que propusiste...]


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## SydLexia

I interpret it as a noun but not as a straight declaration that "it is a sin/whatever to believe...."

I think it is more like "(Lo que tiene) Es una pretensión......". For that reason I think aurilla has the best version so far:


aurilla said:


> "Es *pretender* saber más que Dios."


syd


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## Lis48

Read the context and the sentences before and after:

_"If the beloved Redeemer didn't mean men to have wives what did He make women for? That's what I say. If a woman's old enough to marry, and doesn't, she's sinning against the Lord- -it's a wanting to know better than Him. What, does she think the Lord took all that trouble in making her for nothing?"_

Tant Sannie believs that God´s purpose for women on earth is purely for procreation. 
If a woman does not marry and have children, then she is sinning against God´s will, by postulating/claiming that she knows her purpose on earth better than Him. 

My suggestion would be "_Es afirmar / pretender saber más que Él_."

EDIT: Just seen Syd´s last answer. My line of thinking exactly


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## MHCKA

Leyendo todo el texto adicional que han proporcionado creo que sería: 

*[porque] es un sacrilegio creerse más que Él*...

Es el tipo de afirmaciones exageradas y sin argumento de base que hace la gente intolerante y fanática... como parece ser el estilo de este personaje.


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## SydLexia

If you check the following searches - or do them yourself (including quotes)

"it's a wanting to" 
"it is a wanting to"
"a wanting to"

I do not think you will find many, if any, referring to sin, failure, defects, etc.

As far as I can see, "a wanting" = "un querer", which is why I think 'pretender' is a good translation.

syd


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## mijoch

Hi syd

I see the valient efforts to get to grips with this sentence. I finally admit that I don't understand it.

A strange feeling not to understand my native language.

I think it's a big step to take modern English back to "salted with Wesleyan, peppered with Afrikaans, South African English of 100 years ago in a Biblical style.

My last input here is about "to want".

Apparently, the first documented use of "to want" with the meaning of "to lack/be deficient" occured around c.1200. The inclusion of the meaning "to desire/wish" occured in the early 1800s.

I doubt that Olive writing in her style at the turn of century---1800/1900 would have used "wanting" with the meaning "desiring". 

I am impressed by #2 from MHCKA.

Anyway. That's it from me---defeated and disheartened.

M.


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## txokarro

Mijoch,  MHCKA makes an excellent suggestion about "sinning against God", but he leaves the second part of the sentence unresolved. I am sorry you give it up, but I suppose there is no way of telling which of the two main alternatives is the right one. Only Olive knows...

And thank you Syd for all the trouble you took.


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