# Хлеб, булка и булка хлеба



## wanderer

*Mod note: this discussion certainly deserves its own thread so all the relevant posts have been moved from here:

* *<...>*
Also sometimes it's funny how say SPB folks are not accepting various words and phrases. Like my friends from SPB are making very suprised faces when I say something like 'булка хлеба', for they differentiate 'хлеб'(dark bread) and 'булка' as white bread. Probably it's not the case for the most people...at least that I've heard.
*<...>*


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## Etcetera

*<...>*


			
				wanderer said:
			
		

> Also sometimes it's funny how say SPB folks are not accepting various words and phrases. Like my friends from SPB are making very suprised faces when I say something like 'булка хлеба', for they differentiate 'хлеб'(dark bread) and 'булка' as white bread. Probably it's not the case for the most people...at least that I've heard.


Yes, we do differentiate хлеб and булка. Shop assistants in Moscow had hard time to understand what exactly did I mean by 'хлеб'. 
BTW, I still don't know what's meant in Moscow by 'булка хлеба'. 
*<...>*


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## wanderer

Etcetera said:
			
		

> I haven't been to WR for two days, because a thunderstorm has left me without Internet connection. But now I'm here, and I'd like to join this nice discussion.
> 
> Yes, we do differentiate хлеб and булка. Shop assistants in Moscow had hard time to understand what exactly did I mean by 'хлеб'.
> BTW, I still don't know what's meant in Moscow by 'булка хлеба'.


IMHO,
As far as I can tell  'булка' in SPB russian is a white bread while 'хлеб' is a black bread.(Am I wrong?) But in other places(including Moscow and Russia-outside-of-МКАД...well ok, atleast in these cities I've visited) 'булка' means a piece of bread in general, I'd even say a form(physical) of a bread. Hence the 'булка хлеба' came. Which will mean the same as just 'хлеб'...

It's funny though. I used to leave with a girl from SPB, and she is so after so named 'proper' russian... She's been correcting my belarusian-russian all the time... but who can tell what is the 'proper' language?..


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## Etcetera

wanderer said:
			
		

> IMHO,
> As far as I can tell 'булка' in SPB russian is a white bread while 'хлеб' is a black bread.(Am I wrong?) But in other places(including Moscow and Russia-outside-of-МКАД...well ok, atleast in these cities I've visited) 'булка' means a piece of bread in general, I'd even say a form(physical) of a bread. Hence the 'булка хлеба' came. Which will mean the same as just 'хлеб'...


What a nice term 'SPb Russian'!
Ypu're right, булка is white bread, and хлеб is black.

*<...>*


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## papillon

*<...>*

BTW -- in Kharkov "хлеб" is a general word for bread. In the store you would ask for a "буханка" of black/white bread. So I guess we'd use "буханка" as the Russian for a loaf of bread. I always used "булка" for smaller "french-type" breads (not "batons"!) and some sweet bread like like brioche. Do SPB people use "буханка"?


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## Etcetera

papillon said:
			
		

> BTW -- in Kharkov "хлеб" is a general word for bread. In the store you would ask for a "буханка" of black/white bread. So I guess we'd use "буханка" as the Russian for a loaf of bread. I always used "булка" for smaller "french-type" breads (not "batons"!) and some sweet bread like like brioche. Do SPB people use "буханка"?


I've never heard this word. Well, I know that it exists and I know what it means, but I've never heard any Petersburger using it.


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## cyanista

OK, how would an SPB citizen say "a loaf of bread/two loaves of bread" then?


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## Etcetera

Just хлеб. Or два хлеба, if they want two loaves of bread.


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## cyanista

How funny! To me, it sounds just as strange as "two breads" would sound in English.

By the way, those willing to learn more about local differences in Russian vocubulary may find this site interesting.


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## Etcetera

The Muscovite "булка хлеба" sounds equally funny to me. 
Thank you for the link, the site looks really interesting!


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## Stripped

Etcetera said:
			
		

> The Muscovite "булка хлеба" sounds equally funny to me.



With all due respect, I can't recall hearing that expression... (Unless my mind is playing tricks with me and and blocking the most horrific idyoms )


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## Etcetera

I remember a really horrific moment when I first came into a corner shop in Moscow and ask the shop assistant to give me _хлеб и булку_. She stared at me and asked: 
- Хлеб черный или белый? (Bread - black or white?).
It took me a good three minutes to understand what did she mean by that!!


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## Crescent

Etcetera said:


> The Muscovite "булка хлеба" sounds equally funny to me.
> Thank you for the link, the site looks really interesting!



_Булка хлеба_ to me sounds like _масло маргарина_.    
I think no matter where I would be, if it was a russian speaking community, I would just simply say: _Можно, пожалуйста, два батона хлеба?_


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## kt_81

Crescent said:


> I think no matter where I would be, if it was a russian speaking community, I would just simply say: _Можно, пожалуйста, два батона хлеба?_



Well, I'm originally from Perm and there you would have to describe what you actually mean.    

There were 3 'brands' of bread, excluding smaller stuff like бублики etc.

1. белый, буханка белого 
2. чёрный, буханка чёрного
These two looked like this one (the colour was different, of course):
http://www.internet-grocer.net/bread.jpg

And then there was a third one
3. батон
It looked like this one, but the surface pattern was different)
http://www.tsesnaastyk.kz/products/img/47.jpg

It was simply батон, not булка батона or something. It also had a taste completely different from the white one. It was more like that special 'bread' you have in hamburgers, a little bit sweet.

булка хлеба was a neutral term, you could have 3 булки хлеба - 1 white, 1 black and 1 baton.


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## morrilla

In Ukrainian shops you can hear just anything: "хлеб", "буханка хлеба", "булка хлеба"  As for trempel i know this word and some people still use it. Maybe because Donetsk is close to Kharkiv.


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## Etcetera

Crescent said:


> I think no matter where I would be, if it was a russian speaking community, I would just simply say: _Можно, пожалуйста, два батона хлеба?_


How can you say so! Батон and хлеб are totally different things!


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## rushalaim

We name the white bread "булка" and black bread "хлеб" in our area. 
However when I visited Russia I heard curious combination of words for my ears (not far from Moscow) "булка-хлеба". I have no idea what does it mean? 
What is the name of bread in St.Petersburg and Moscow?
Hei, россияне, откликнитесь!


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## rusita preciosa

I'm from Moscow and I have no idea what "булка-хлеба" can possibly mean.

We say *батон хлеба* which means "loaf of bread" (black or white). We can say simply *булка *meaning either "loaf of bread" or "brioche". 
 
*Xлеб* is a generic word for bread, it means any kind of bread, not necessarily black.


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## marco_2

And when do you use the word *буханка*?


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## Valvs

In some areas of Russia, "булка хлеба" means, or used to mean, the same thing as "буханка хлеба" in other places. It was the most common way to refer to brick-shaped loaves of white bread in the small town in the Southern Urals where I used to live as a little boy. E.g.  "Cходи в хлебный (never "в булочную"!), купи две булки хлеба". I heard this phrase used in the same way in Northern Kazakhstan as well.


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## rushalaim

rusita preciosa said:


> We say *батон хлеба...*


When we come to the store we buy black bread "хлеб" (really black like a coal) and the white bread named "булка" simply. Of course we know such words "батон", "буханка", "кирпич" but we don't use these words.
If someone says "Я куплю батон хлеба"  it's hard to understand what kind of bread white? black?


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## rusita preciosa

marco_2 said:


> And when do you use the word *буханка*?


I'd say it is the same as *батон*, but I think it is a bit old-fashioned (it is something my Grandma would say).


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## rusita preciosa

rushalaim said:


> If someone says "Я куплю батон хлеба" it's hard to understand what kind of bread white? black?


Yes, unless it is clear from the context, you would have to specify: *батон **черного / белого* *хлеба*


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## marco_2

So this хлебо-булочная система is very complicated among Russian-speaking people. When I visit Russia some day I'll have to describe in detail what I'd really like to buy.


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## rusita preciosa

marco_2 said:


> So this хлебо-булочная система is very complicated among Russian-speaking people. When I visit Russia some day I'll have to describe in detail what I'd really like to buy.


 Better yet, bring a picture!


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## marco_2

rusita preciosa said:


> Better yet, bring a picture!


 
That's a good idea - thank you!


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## rushalaim

marco_2 said:


> So this хлебо-булочная система is very complicated among Russian-speaking people.


Yeah! Russian territory is thousands of Polands.


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## marco_2

rushalaim said:


> Yeah! Russian territory is thousands of Polands.


 
Hmm, does it also mean "thousands of хлебо-булочных изделий?


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## morzh

I think this system is only complicated in Moscow/S.-P.

Where I lived, we never had any ambiguities.

For example, we always knew what sort of bread we wanted (the variety was next to none, between 1 and 3 sorts), so "буханка серого" was a loaf of grey bread, "буханка белого" was a loaf of white bread, and "батон" was always white and needed no additional specifications.

If we wanted "чурек" (unlevened "tanduri" style, like one would get in Indian restaurants, in some other parts of USSR similar bread was called "лаваш") - it was only sold in a separate booth, and was a very distinct sort, so no doubts here, and if we wanted special expensive sort of white bread, made as a loaf, that was sold once a week in one place in the whole city, we would go there and ask simply for "буханка" (a loaf) as there, again, was no other bread, and between ourselves, when talking about this bread, we would call it "Рыбкоповский", as it was made by a bakery of "РыбКООП", (fishermen co-operative).

In another town I lived in there was one variety only (grey bread, in loaves), so again, there was no complicated naming system.

One thing was, and I believe still is ( as I visited Russia in 2003, 13 years since I left, and there was lots more choice then than before I left) true - if you know the name of your bread, you do not need to specify all those special types of loaves etc - all you have to tell is (very much the same as we do here) the trade name of that bread (and people who buy bread usually know its name).

Say, I go to Shoprite and want a loaf of bread from under the glass (not the one you pick up yourself), so I ask for "one "Olive loaf"", or "One "Asiago"", or "One Quattro Formaggio", or "One Whole Grain". Sliced or not.

Same was true in a city I visited - my guide was naming the bread by name, and that was that.

Bottom line - one only has to make it as complicated as he wants it.


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## galaxy man

Whatever Russian I know, originated in SPB (in fact: LGR), a  l-o-o-o-n-g  time ago 

As I now remember, things were much  like what Papillon, Morzh and some others described: there were few  choices, naming them was simple:

*хлеб* -- if without  qualifiers, it meant black, brick-shape bread. I thought  (without any supporting evidence)  that this was a natural consequence  of the Leningrad blockade, when no other forms of bread were available.

*булка  хлеба* -- as far as I can remember such expression did not exist. It was: *буханка хлеба*.  

*булка*   -- strictly it meant a small, round piece of  white bread which was even  finer, and somewhat sweeter, than батон.

*булка*  -- in a  broader sense (and, I believe, used mostly by older people) meant white  bread in general.

All this was sold in places that often carried the   store sign: ХЛЕБ, but were commonly called: булочная.

It is  very interesting for me to see that the usage may have changed, not only  by location, but probably because of the immense growth of available  sorts. 

By the way: here is a very detailed discussion about the  same topic:
http://forum.lingvo.ru/actualthread.aspx?tid=30280&pg=-1


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## Sobakus

marco_2 said:


> Hmm, does it also mean "thousands of хлебо-булочных изделий?



Not really. In fact untill lately there had been very few sorts of bread, at least in SPB, the staple ones being хлеба "ржаной" and "дарницкий" and батон "нарезной". And I imagine outside of the two capitals it wasn't much better  Nowadays, however, there are lots of confusing breads in plastic bags and you can't quite decide to which pole(not Pole ) it inclines - to the хлеб one or to the булка one. Good thing they are usually sold in supermarkets where you can pick one yourself.


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## let`s talk

Etcetera said:


> What a nice term 'SPb Russian'!
> Ypu're right, булка is white bread, and хлеб is black.
> 
> *<...>*


Actually it is brown, called "Darnitskij". (my apology for romanization, no Cyrillic script around)
I think the most reliable source is the documents of the Russian government body that controls the quality of consumer's products. They surely know the right names of that stuff for all Russia. All others are just localisms.
If I remember correctly they have:
"khlebobulochnye izdeliya"- all types of bread products
"khleb pshenichnyj" - means wheat bread, can be round or brick shape
"khleb rzhanoj"- means rye bread, can be roudn or brick shape 
"bulka"- small round wheat bread, a little sweet, mostly eaten with butter or jam for a teatime
"baton"- a kind of French loaf, can be of many types, more sweeter or less, bigger or smaller
"bukhanka" - a measure of bread, a loaf that can be cut in two or four pieces for sale in a shop without weighting the product. So, the right form of the phrase should be "bukhanka rzhanogo/pshenichnogo khleba"
And, normally in Russia almost all types of bread have proper names, like people. For example, khleb(bread) "Darnitskij", maybe the most popular bread product in St-Petersburg.


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## learnerr

papillon said:


> I always used "булка" for smaller "french-type" breads (not "batons"!) and some sweet bread like like brioche. Do SPB people use "буханка"?


In the rare case one has to refer to two (or one and a half) or more loaves, that's the only possible word for me, born there. But otherwise it is shorter: полхлеба or целый хлеб, if you mean dark bread, полбатона or целый батон, if you mean white bread. Sweet bread for me has always been not булка (which is white bread in general), but булочка, even if it is large enough, but unless it is made in the regular form of a usual loaf, in which case it is either булка or хлеб, depending on the form. In fact, the form, and not colour, is what makes khleb khleb there; for example, белый хлеб is just bread of white colour (from the respective cereals) made in a form of a "brick".

All in all, I think this matter must be not only regional, but also personal and casual.


> Also sometimes it's funny how say SPB folks are not accepting various  words and phrases.


This funny trait belongs not only to them...


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## Great Dane

Ну ребята, вы даёте, посмотрите в словарях, что такое булка и буханка, а пока ешьте макароны )))
http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%F3%EB%EA%E0
http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%F3%F5%E0%ED%EA%E0


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