# All dialects: Mutual intelligibility



## parakseno

你好
  Hello again everyone... Recently I've started learning Chinese (on my own). Yes, I know it sounds crazy, but my initial intention was to be able to read and understand the characters. Now, with resources I found on the Internet I think I can mannage even with pronunciation... Anyway... I should get to the point .
   So far, I've seen that there are many so-called dialects. From what I read, Mandarin is the main one (and the official language in China) and Cantonese being the second, but that they are quite different... If you learn one of them, is it very hard to understand the other?
 And one more question... Is pinyin suitable only for Mandarin or is it used for all other dialects? (If it's used only for Mandarin, what systems do other dialects use?)
谢谢。


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## MingRaymond

Hi parakseno,

Yes, If you learn one of them,  it is very hard to understand the other.
Pinyin is only suitable for Putonghua. Pinyin was created at that time to help people to learn Putonghua. Other languages in China use different systems. I am a native speaker of Cantonese. No one teach us the system for Cantonese. Each dictionaries use different systems. You can find some information here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese_Pinyin

Cheers,
Ming


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## vince

parakseno said:
			
		

> So far, I've seen that there are many so-called dialects. From what I read, Mandarin is the main one (and the official language in China) and Cantonese being the second, but that they are quite different... If you learn one of them, is it very hard to understand the other?




This is a very complicated and complex question you are asking, and cannot be answered in one or two sentences without causing misinterpretation. I have written a couple pages on this subject before but I would advise you to search on the Internet. The main caveat is that a Chinese "dialect" (Mandarin: "fangyan") is not the same as the European concept of dialect, keep this in mind. The Chinese Dialects (capitalizing "dialect" for a reason) are dialects in the sense that most of them do not have independent, standardized, written languages, speakers of dialects all write using the same written language with identical grammar and syntax and (except for a few regional words) identical vocabulary. But they are not European-style dialects in the sense that the spoken language, even formal speech, is only historically connected to the written language, thus spoken grammar (even formal grammar), phonology, and vocabulary differs significantly. (Well maybe not that significant: about as different as Romanian and Italian, not as different as Romanian and Russian; i.e. Mandarin speakers can't understand everyday spoken Cantonese speech at all, though they might catch one in ten words of formal spoken Cantonese.

In the written language, Cantonese-speaking Hong Kongers and Mandarin-speaking Beijingers write as similarly as British people and American people do.

In the spoken language, Cantonese-speakers and Mandarin-speakers speak as similarly as Romanian people and Italian people do.

The closest examples of European languages that would be considered Chinese "dialects" would be Swiss German compared to Standard German, and Sardinian Italian and Friulian Italian compared to Standard Italian. European dialects like British vs. American, French vs. Quebecois would be considered Chinese "sub"-dialects.

If you want to learn Cantonese, a good site is www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk, started by a British fellow.

Unlike most Chinese Dialects, Cantonese has a written language, however like Swiss German and Friulian, it is not standardized and is heavily stigmatized for any use outside of transcribing conversations. Many characters have been invented or modified to describe Cantonese grammar and vocabulary that do not exist in Mandarin or are used differently. For examples of Written Cantonese (this is NOT the same as Written Chinese) you can also visit the Cantonese wikipedia: http://zh-yue.wikipedia.org (note: some lazy people have just copied word-for-word from the Standard Chinese wikipedia (http://zh.wikipedia.org ) those articles should not be regarded as representing Cantonese in anyway.



> And one more question... Is pinyin suitable only for Mandarin or is it used for all other dialects? (If it's used only for Mandarin, what systems do other dialects use?)
> 谢谢。


No, the other Chinese languages often have vastly different phonologies. Cantonese has two competing systems: Yale and Jyutping.


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## parakseno

I've started with Mandarin, as I heard it's somewhat easier. After all, even 4 tone are something to grasp... no need to talk about 9. I understood that it would be easier to start with Mandarin to get the basic concepts. I believe that at least their concepts are similar if their "form"/means of expression aren't.  I have to say it sounds (Mandarin at least) very odd to European ears .
   Oh yes... what should've been first... Thank you all for your time and effort. Things are more clear now.
   And one more question... I don't know whether I should have started another thread... How different are the meanings of the characters between these dialects? I mean I suppose there must be quite a lot of characters that have the same meaning in most dialects. Any idea of how many have the same meaning?
  Thanks again!


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## vince

For the written language, all "dialects" write the same, so all characters have the same meaning, except for maybe 1% of regional vocabulary. That is, Mandarin -speakers and Cantonese-speakers use 99% of the same vocabulary when they write.

But in the spoken language, this is not so. Some written characters as common as 了, 的, and 沒 are almost non-existent in Cantonese.

In the spoken language, I'd say that around 80-89% of Mandarin words exist in some form in Cantonese, and vice-versa. (not including colloquial slang, which would lower the numbers even further) This is comparable to the ratio between French and Italian (89%), and Spanish and Catalan (85%) (source: ethnologue.com). Keep in mind that the words common to both languages may be pronounced entirely differently. Compare:
去 (to go): In Mandarin this is pronounced "qu", in Cantonese, "hoei"
襪 (socks): In Mandarin this is pronounced "wa", in Cantonese, "mat"
You can't always find a rule to transform one to the other, look here:
物 (stuff): In Mandarin this is pronounced "wu", but in Cantonese, "mat"
和 (and: very rare in Cantonese): Mandarin is pronounced "he", Cantonese pronounces it has "wo".

There are also other Chinese languages. The three most famous other than Mandarin and Cantonese are Wu (of which Shanghainese is its principal dialect), Min (of which Taiwanese and Hokkien), and Hakka.

There is a Taiwanese Min-nan Wikipedia: http://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/wiki/

It is written in our familiar Latin alphabet (Peh-oe-ji system).
Taiwanese is strictly speaking, a subdialect of Southern Min. Southern Min is a dialect of Min which, like Swiss German, is canot be understood with Northern Min (Fuzhou-nese). Min is a top-level Chinese language.


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## parakseno

One more thing...
  In previous posts on this forum I've seen that there are some grammar aspects that are different between dialects. My question is: having a written text would it be hard for one to understand if it's in another dialect. I mean, it seems that it would take quite a lot of effort understanding someone who speaks to you in a dialect you don't know, but does this apply to a written text as well? Taking into account that the majority of characters have the same meaning no matter the dialect, I assume that a written text wouldn't be so hard to understand. Or grammar is very different between dialects so that texts are just as hard to understand.
   In fact, to put it in fewer words... would someone who's learning Mandarin be able to read texts (literature, newspapers, web pages etc.) written in other dialects?


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## MingRaymond

If the text is written by Standard Chinese (variety based on Mandarin), it is not difficult to understand. But it is difficult for you to read if it is written in other such as Cantonese. 

Sometimes, the sentence is similar, but sometimes it is very different. 

I want to learn swimming.
Mandarin: 我想學游泳。
Cantonese: 我想學游水。

Who is he/she?
Mandarin:他／她是誰？
Cantonese:佢係邊個？

Ming


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## parakseno

I see that in the sentences that have the same "spelling", the meaning can be deduced from the characters alone... I mean, the characters seem to be used for their meaning rather than the sounds associated to them:
我 - I
想 - to want
學 - to learn
游 - to swim
泳 - swimming
(at least this is what the dictionary I used said ).
Just for curiosity... How would this sound in Cantonese? In Mandarin I think it would be:
 wŏ xiăng xué yóu yŏng.


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## MingRaymond

我想學游泳 is Ngo5 sheung2 hok8 yaau4 wing6 in Cantonese.

Cheers,
Ming


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## parakseno

谢谢 They don't seem to sound THAT different. Oups, I should've said 謝謝.


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## Tatzingo

parakseno said:
			
		

> 谢谢 They don't seem to sound THAT different. Oups, I should've said 謝謝.



Hi,

Glad to hear it ;-) To me they sound quite different. In fact, I've always said that Mandarin sounds to like like Italian, it has a certain quality that makes it pleasing to the ear and it's got song-like qualities whereas cantonese would be akin to German. It sounds very harsh!

Tatz.


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## vince

parakseno said:
			
		

> 谢谢 They don't seem to sound THAT different. Oups, I should've said 謝謝.


Of course they don't. Cantonese and Mandarin are CLOSELY RELATED languages.

I can do the same for Spanish and French:

"He will go to the library"

Spanish: "Él irá a la biblioteca" [el ir'a a la biblio'teka]
French: "Il ira à la bibliothèque" [il iRa a la bibliotek]

But check out the second example. It shows that even related languages can have sentences that are completely different.



			
				parakseno said:
			
		

> would someone who's learning Mandarin be able to read texts (literature, newspapers, web pages etc.) written in other dialects?


There is not a clear "Yes" or "No" answer. It depends on how close the language is to Mandarin. But even with faraway languages like Mandarin and Cantonese, Mandarin-speakers should be able to understand most of the key points in a text even without studying Cantonese writing. This is not shocking, since Italian people can read Spanish, Catalan, and Portuguese and understand the key concepts, even if they don't understand some of the words.

Keep in mind that Chinese people almost always write in Standard Written Chinese, which is 98% based on Mandarin grammar and vocabulary. Written Cantonese and Written Taiwanese are very rare even in Hong Kong and Taiwan. Even Hong Kong gossip magazines and pop music are mostly written in Standard Chinese. Chances are, if you run into a Chinese text, it is in Standard Written Chinese. (Unless it was written before the 1920's, when it would be in Classical Literary Chinese).


P.S. 謝謝 (xie xie) is Standard Chinese/Mandarin, you cannot say that in Cantonese. If you want to say "Thank you", you must say 唔該 (m goi) in return for favors.
If you receive a gift, you say 多謝 (do ze). Mandarin and English do not have this distinction.


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## vince

Tatzingo said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Glad to hear it ;-) To me they sound quite different. In fact, I've always said that Mandarin sounds to like like Italian, it has a certain quality that makes it pleasing to the ear and it's got song-like qualities whereas cantonese would be akin to German. It sounds very harsh!
> 
> Tatz.


I agree, I think it has to do with Mandarin syllables always ending with a vowel or one of the two nasal sounds (n, ng).

Cantonese syllables can end in a wide variety of consonants (p, k, m, n, ng, t) and vowels. German is a language that has a lot of final vowels. But Cantonese does not have German's harsh sounds (ach, ich, isch)


Here is a good page explaining key differences between Cantonese and Mandarin (in French):

http://www.chine-nouvelle.com/methode/cantonais/mandarin-cantonais.html

http://www.chine-nouvelle.com/methode/cantonais/mandarin-cantonais-2.html


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## parakseno

> But even with faraway languages like Mandarin and Cantonese


 So it seems that Mandarin and Cantonese would be the something like the extremes in the Chinese speaking world...


> Keep in mind that Chinese people almost always write in Standard Written Chinese...


So, practically this is what unites Chinese people more than anything (linguisically at least ). That's very interesting... That means that "Cantonese" people are the "Chinese experts" to say so. They have to know 2 "languages" - the spoken Cantonese and Standard Written Chinese... Interesting and strange...



> 謝謝 (xie xie) is Standard Chinese/Mandarin, you cannot say that in Cantonese. If you want to say "Thank you", you must say 唔該 (m goi) in return for favors.
> If you receive a gift, you say 多謝 (do ze). Mandarin and English do not have this distinction.



I didn't know... As I said I've started with Mandarin. I took that from a site, Cantonese oriented: http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/conversation1.htm

Thanks again for all your time and support. I really appreciate it.


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## Outsider

There's also de issue of the orthography, which varies between mainland China and the other territories where Chinese dialects are spoken.


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## vince

parakseno said:
			
		

> So it seems that Mandarin and Cantonese would be the something like the extremes in the Chinese speaking world...


I have heard claims that the Min language (of which Taiwanese is the most wellknown dialect) is further apart from Mandarin than Cantonese is.



			
				parakseno said:
			
		

> So, practically this is what unites Chinese people more than anything (linguisically at least ). That's very interesting... That means that "Cantonese" people are the "Chinese experts" to say so. They have to know 2 "languages" - the spoken Cantonese and Standard Written Chinese... Interesting and strange...


Yes you are exactly right, from a European perspective, since Written Chinese is a different language in every sense of the word from Cantonese.

But most Chinese people will tell you that they only know one language - Chinese, but that they speak one or more dialects of it.

Note: When Cantonese people read a text in Standard Chinese, they read out the characters in Cantonese pronunciation, even though the grammar and syntax of what they are saying is essentially Mandarin. But this means that only literate people can understand text readings!



> I didn't know... As I said I've started with Mandarin. I took that from a site, Cantonese oriented: http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/conversation1.htm
> 
> Thanks again for all your time and support. I really appreciate it.


The site has a good forum where people post questions on both Cantonese and Mandarin. I often post questions there about how to translate a Cantonese expression into Mandarin, so you can learn both languages there.

Now that you are aware of the differences between Cantonese and Mandarin, I encourage you to call them languages, not "dialects", to avoid confusing laypeople.

Question for MingRaymond or other Cantonese speakers:
How would you read a Chinese children's storybook to your kids, since it is in Standard Chinese? Wouldn't you have to read it in your head first, then translate it into Cantonese before reading it aloud to your kids? Because if you read it out loud, despite the "simple" grammar designed for little kids, the children will have no idea what you're saying if you read it.

e.g. if you see a Chinese children's book that says this:
Mama kap tamun shyut: bat jiu hek ze se ping go!
(Mom tells them: "Don't eat these apples!")

Do you actually say that out loud?
Or does what come out of your mouth actually say: "Mama tong koeidei gong: M hou sik li di ping go!"

If so, if they made all (young) children's storybooks in English, no one would notice, since parents are translating anyway!


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## vince

Outsider said:
			
		

> There's also de issue of the orthography, which varies between mainland China and the other territories where Chinese dialects are spoken.



Orthography is independent of the Chinese language being written with it.

Standard Chinese (based on Mandarin) which everyone from Singapore to Taiwan to HK to Mainland China writes in, can be written in either Simplified and Traditional. In fact Taiwan, where Mandarin is the majority language, uses Traditional to write Standard Chinese.

When Cantonese is written (which is rarely anyway), it is usually done in Traditional, I think because HK still uses Traditional for writing Standard Chinese. Written Cantonese isn't standardized, so one could easily create Simplified characters to write Cantonese in. The French webpage I linked to  in my above post actually uses Simplified characters to write some Cantonese, which is unusual (at the moment), but who knows, this may one day change if HK ever adopts Simplified.


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## MingRaymond

vince said:
			
		

> Question for MingRaymond or other Cantonese speakers:
> How would you read a Chinese children's storybook to your kids, since it is in Standard Chinese? Wouldn't you have to read it in your head first, then translate it into Cantonese before reading it aloud to your kids? Because if you read it out loud, despite the "simple" grammar designed for little kids, the children will have no idea what you're saying if you read it.
> 
> e.g. if you see a Chinese children's book that says this:
> Mama kap tamun shyut: bat jiu hek ze se ping go!
> (Mom tells them: "Don't eat these apples!")
> 
> Do you actually say that out loud?
> Or does what come out of your mouth actually say: "Mama tong koeidei gong: M hou sik li di ping go!"
> 
> If so, if they made all (young) children's storybooks in English, no one would notice, since parents are translating anyway!


 
I will say  "Mama tong koeidei gong: M hou sik li di ping go!" because I am telling a story. It is not difficult to translate a standard Chinese text into Cantonese. The standard Chinese form (the one based on Mandarin) is taught to the Hong Kong children directly when they are very young. Everyone is taught the Cantonese pronunciation of the words and then the children will use Cantonese to read the standard Chinese text. But nowadays, some schools will teach them the Mandarin pronunciation of the words too. This may make confusion to the children because they are too young.

Cheers,
Ming


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## panjabigator

Are the speakers of the other Chinese languages essentially bilingual in Mandarin and their language?

And what about Taiwan, do they learn Mandarin with a different pronunciation?


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