# Surname: Roudnitska



## Rainbowlight

Hello everybody,

Could someone please help me with the pronunciation of this surname? He (Edmond Roudnitska, a famed perfumer) was actually born in France, so I am not completely sure if he is of a Russian or Polish descent.

Thanks for your time and patience,

Rainbowlight


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## Vadim K

If you click on the link below and then on the page that opens you click on the loudspeaker icon at the bottom left, you will hear how to pronounce this name in Russian.

Эдмон Рудницка


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## Şafak

Rainbowlight said:


> I am not completely sure if he is of a Russian or Polish descent.


His surname doesn’t sound Russian to me.


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## Panceltic

Jennifer Weiss said:


> His surname doesn’t sound Russian to me.


Rudnicki is a Polish surname, you’re right. Quite why this guy had the feminine version of the surname is not completely clear to me though.


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## karaluszek

Panceltic said:


> Rudnicki is a Polish surname, you’re right. Quite why this guy had the feminine version of the surname is not completely clear to me though.


Maybe it's a Czech surname - Roudnička, like a local district of Hradec Králové.


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## Awwal12

karaluszek said:


> Maybe it's a Czech surname - Roudnička, like a local district of Hradec Králové.


That's at least a possibility.
At any rate, even native Polish feminine surnames ending in -ska usually get automatically "translated" into surnames ending in -skaya in Russian (there is only a handful of exceptions to that).

Overall, surnames ending in -skiy (-sky) are generally atypical for Russians (though not entirely impossible; e.g. few simple toponymic surnames like Рязанский, seminarian surnames like Рождественский or old nobility surnames like Волконский); among  Russians these surnames most frequently point at some kind of Polish descent (Polish Jews and Polonized nobility of Belarus and Ukraine included).


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## Şafak

Awwal12 said:


> atypical


I’m sorry. Why do you mean such surnames are atypical? You hear them everywhere.


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## Awwal12

Jennifer Weiss said:


> I’m sorry. Why do you mean such surnames are atypical? You hear them everywhere.


I meant atypical as surnames of Russian origin, of course. Surely people descending from Poland or from Belarusian/Ukrainian szlachta are a noticeable cathegory among modern Russian nationals.


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## Panceltic

karaluszek said:


> Maybe it's a Czech surname - Roudnička, like a local district of Hradec Králové.


That’s possible but I’d say not very probable. For starters, _č_ would most likely be adapted as _(t)ch_ in French, not _ts_.


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## Valvs

Cheap paperback novels in English are, sometimes, so _cheap_... No research, no nothing.


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## Şafak

Valvs said:


> Cheap paperback novels in English are, sometimes, so _cheap_... No research, no nothing.


You call them cheap, I call them "New York Times bestsellers".


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## Valvs

Jennifer Weiss said:


> You call them cheap, I call them "New York Times bestsellers".


Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha


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## Shadiac

Awwal12 said:


> At any rate, even native Polish feminine surnames ending in -ska usually get automatically "translated" into surnames ending in -skaya in Russian (there is only a handful of exceptions to that).


Далеко не всегда, пример: Барбара Брыльска



Panceltic said:


> That’s possible but I’d say not very probable.


I don't think that's the issue here. This individual is most likely a Frenchman _naturalisé_, i.e. their feminine side parents might've had that name from Poland, but it followed French standards (hence the "ou" instead of "u" as well) in legal documents etc. Compare such names as "Romanoff" and "Baranow", which are Russian (empiric) in origin, but have been anglicized over the course of history.


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## Awwal12

Shadiac said:


> I don't think that's the issue here. This individual is most likely a Frenchman _naturalisé_, i.e. their feminine side parents might've had that name from Poland, but it followed French standards (hence the "ou" instead of "u" as well) in legal documents etc. Compare such names as "Romanoff" and "Baranow", which are Russian (empiric) in origin, but have been anglicized over the course of history.


Trouble is, you provide examples of natural phonetic adaptations. Speaking about Czech "Roudnička", it must be a purely graphical adaptation - certainly something less likely.


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## Shadiac

Awwal12 said:


> Speaking about Czech "Roudnička", it must be a purely graphical adaptation


Судя по источникам, у индивида, о котором идёт речь, корни были явно польские, а не чешские. О чём свидетельствует всё та же Википедия.


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## Awwal12

Shadiac said:


> Судя по источникам, у индивида, о котором идёт речь, корни были явно польские, а не чешские. О чём свидетельствует всё та же Википедия.


Sorry, I just didn't quite get your point at first.


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## karaluszek

Shadiac said:


> Судя по источникам, у индивида, о котором идёт речь, корни были явно польские, а не чешские. О чём свидетельствует всё та же Википедия.


I have not found a single source confirming Roudnitzka's Polish roots. There is no word on this on Wikipedia. Can you provide your source?


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## Shadiac

karaluszek said:


> I have not found a single source confirming Roudnitzka's Polish roots. There is no word on this on Wikipedia. Can you provide your source?


Easy. It's either Polish or polonized Ukrainian, as in both Slovak and Czech, the female surname would have been "Rudnitsk*ova*" (by the patronimic rules of that language). In all, the surname surely comes from former Rzeczpospolita.


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## karaluszek

Shadiac said:


> Easy. It's either Polish or polonized Ukrainian, as in both Slovak and Czech, the female surname would have been "Rudnitsk*ova*" (by the patronimic rules of that language). In all, the surname surely comes from former Rzeczpospolita.


So you're just guessing. Without genealogical research, it is better not to make such firm judgments. It may well be a Czech surname derived from a noun - and not the feminine form of the surname Rudnicki. Hard to say.


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## karaluszek

Shadiac said:


> in both Slovak and Czech, the female surname would have been "Rudnitsk*ova*" (by the patronimic rules of that language).


BTW as far as I know you are wrong. Czech and Slovak male surnames ended with *-ský* (ski), *-cký* (tski), *-zký* (zki) makes female forms ended with *-ská, -cká -zká*.

Examples (Czech actors surnames taken from Wikipedia):
Mr. Jan Hrušín*ský*'s mother is Eva Hrušín*ská*, and daughter is Kristýna Hrušín*ská*.
Brod*ský* -> Brod*ská*, Javorský -> Javorská, Nebřenský -> Nebřenská, Olšovský -> Olšovská, Lukavský -> Lukavská, Luťanský -> Luťanská, Lohniský -> Lohniská, Rovenský -> Rovenská, Táborský -> Táborská, Kopecký -> Kopecká, Stropnický -> Stropnická, Příkazký -> Příkazká etc.

Czech surname Roudnický also belongs to this group, so Roudni*cký*'s wife is Roudni*cká*.

I would also like to add that the cluster "rou" does not appear in Polish words - so, even if it was a Polish surname at some point in history, borrowing the Roudnitska directly from Polish is very unlikely.


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## Shadiac

I found a Russian source stating that Edmond himself considered his family name roots to be "Russian". It's true that I was purely guessing at this point.


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## karaluszek

Shadiac said:


> I found a Russian source stating that Edmond himself considered his family name roots to be "Russian".


You're right, Russian sources gives more information about Edmond Roudnitska.
The biographical notes on _parfum_vintagetorg_com_ and _mylitta_ru_ states that his parents emigrated from Ukraine ("сын украинских эмигрантов").
But still puzzles me the ending of the surname. I wonder how his father's surname was spelled in Cyrillic script - Рудницка or Рудницки(й)?
It would be easy to explain if his mother had no husband, but there is no information about this in the sources - on the contrary, both parents are mentioned ("сын эмигрантов").


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## Shadiac

I'm sure if his maternal side were affected by Ukrainian (post-Rzeczpospolitan) ancenstry, it would in all likeness transliterate as "Рудницька".


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## Shadiac

karaluszek said:


> Czech surname Roudnický also belongs to this group, so Roudni*cký*'s wife is Roudni*cká*.


Why would they round up the "ou"? Isn't Czech close back rounded vowel received as "u" in pronunciation?


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## karaluszek

Shadiac said:


> Why would they round up the "ou"? Isn't Czech close back rounded vowel received as "u" in pronunciation?


You have to ask some Czech language expert. But they pronounce it like this (IPA): [-ou̯-]. If you want to listen to the pronunciation, search for the Czech word "roura" on English Wiktionary.

If you search the Czech Internet, you will find both forms of the surname: Roudnický and Rudnický.
In the Czech Republic there is the village of Roudnice (Hradec Králové district), but also Rudník (Trutnov district, close to the Czech-Polish border). In fact, there are more towns and villages with the stem "roudni-/rudni-".


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## Shadiac

How more accurate "roudni-" would be to /rudni/ instead of /roʊ̯dni/?


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