# Male rites of passage in your culture



## badgrammar

Hello, 

I have been reading recently about the the "journey" boys make as they grow into men.  I think it's fairly clear that in most occidental countries, and outside of certain religious communities who formalize this passage, rites of passage today have been reduced to things like getting one's driver's licence, having sex for the first time, getting a first job, etc.  

I am curious to know how boys in your country are accompanied in the transition from boy to man.  

Is there a conscious, deliberate rite of pasage for boys in your culture, an accompaniment by elder men, mentors, etc?  If not, was there something similar in the past that has now fallen by the wayside?  Please explain what it is/was, and it's purpose.

Do you think it is necessary for male children to be somehow initiated into adult life?  Is it something lacking in your society?  Have boys been left to find their own way?  

Is a boy's journey seen in the same light as a girl's, or are there fundamental spiritual, social differences that are/should be taken into consideration?

Finally, did you yourself (or your male friends/relatives) benefit from something like this?  Do you think it has any importance in helping boys grow up to be exceptional men?

Thank you for your time and responses!


----------



## maxiogee

I don't think so, in the case of Ireland.
Most rite-of-passage activity here is furtive and done away from adult oversight.
First alcoholic drink, first sexual encounter etc.
The first job used to be something a parent assisted with by 'having a word' with a friend, or a friend of a friend - but employment law nowadays is usch that almost any vacancy requires a formal letter of application (or completing a pre-printed application form) and enclosing a CV and references - this negates the 'pull' a parent once had, and the majority of people (male and female) achieve employment on their own efforts.

Professional driving lessons are often a birthday/Christmas present for a child coming to that age. Not many parents teach their own children - it's too fraught with dangers for the relationship!

When I was young upper-middle and upper class girls' schools had formal Debutantes Dances and the equivalent boys' schools had formal dinners (all male) I think the year I left was the first year that the school I attended ran a dance for the school-leavers.
Nowadays every school runs a Debs - 'the word 'Debutante' is never used - and even the boys' functions are known as their Debs. 
The expense for the boys is much less than for the girls. The boys dress suits are predominantly rented for the occasion, whereas the girls' dresses are predominantly purchased for the occasion and may, but most likely will not, be used again.

Gaelic games are a major part of Irish life - particularly outside the big cities (where soccer and rugby predominate) and these are organised in clubs associated with the parish divisions of the Catholic Church. These clubs run teams demarked by age and playing for your club at 'senior' level marks an end to the age-determining factor - you're now playing with, and against, 'men' of all ages. There tends to be a similar age thing with the other sports also but the 'community' relationship isn't there as the soccer and rugby clubs aren't as closely associated with the local communities wherein they are based and they draw their players from a much wider geographical area than the parish.


----------



## Lugubert

Can't think of any defined point when I found that I had gone from boy to man, nor can I imagine such a transition for other Swedes.


----------



## maxiogee

Lugubert said:


> Can't think of any defined point when I found that I had gone from boy to man, nor can I imagine such a transition for other Swedes.



When I was a child boys wore short trousers. It was a universal truth that if you didn't have a pair of long trousers you weren't "grown up". We generally acquired our first pair of long trousers when we underwent the church sacrament of Confirmation around the age of 12.
Then we thought we were men - we weren't, of course, but we thought we were!


----------



## badgrammar

Thanks Maxi and Lugubert...  I guess it's as I suspected, in the Occident atleast, the traditions surrounding coming of age for a boy are fairly superficial ones.  

To refine the question, and maybe get a few more responses, I guess I was curious to know what kind of guidance boys are given in different cultures...  Not _just_ a moment in time or a symbolic or ceremonial gesture, but rather, how does community teach  boys about what it is to "become a man"?  I'm sure lots of people will roll their eyes at that statement, thinking I am making some sort of macho generalizations, that I'm talking about being able to hold one's liquor or dominate a woman.  

But I mean it in a positive sense, in a respectful way:  Teachings about how to give back to the community, how to relate to the women in their lives (be it Mother, sister, neighbor, wife), how to sacrifice oneself for the greater good of a group, a sense of one's place in the world, a sense of spirituality, responsibility, self-worth ....  And specifically, when these things are passed down from older men to the boy - not from the women in the boy's life.  We Mom's can do a lot of things, but...

Any more thoughts on this?


----------



## Chazzwozzer

Nothing special about it in Turkey.

Boys here usually go and get driver's licence when they have reached the age, but of course it's not a "gift" given by someone. Though not common, some fathers also take their sons to the brothels and let them have sex for the first time.

I wonder how this was in Ottoman... sure; more "splendid"!


----------



## badgrammar

Wow, I would have thought there was more to it than that...  So basically, so far, none of you have reported any sort of spiritual or social guidance in your cultures aimed at helping boys grow up.  

I dunno', I've been reading this great bnook on the subject called "The Wonder of Boys", talks a lot about how without guidance from fathers, mentors, elders, boys today have a hard time understanding, knowing where they fit into society, and what it means to be "a man".  Which is why so many boys (in the US in articular) join gangs, act out criminally, become violent, have a hard time in relationships, dealing appropriately with their sexuality, etc.

Well, thanks anyway for your input!  I don't know if it was more splendid in Ottoman times, but atleast you got to wear those little hats back then   !


----------



## Chaska Ñawi

It's as completely varied as the boys themselves.  We have no gender-specific rites of passage that occur to me, but that makes them no less meaningful.  These steps toward independence of action and thought - learning to drive, first sexual experience, first paycheck, babysitting solo, leaving home for school, travelling without parents - are well-nigh universal in western countries.

Mentoring does not have to be highly visible, organized and scripted to be effective. It comes from male relatives, coaches, teachers, and older friends.  There is also a formal program called Big Brothers and Big Sisters, which pairs children in single-parent or low-income homes with older mentors of the same sex.  These pairings enjoy weekly outings, such as movies, skating, playing board games, etc.  

I guess it's easier for women, who can mark first menstruation, pregnancy, and menopause.  Boys don't experience the scenario of coming downstairs in the morning and saying, "Dad, guess what?  I think my testicles descended last night."


----------



## Pando

*Finland:*

Within religious families (some 4/5 of the population are Evangelical Lutheran) the confirmation of faith, which usually happens around 15 years of age, is seen as a rite of passage. The children are given a more adult treatment from the parents and relatives from this point forward.

Another rite of passage that are specifically for males is conscription. Every healthy man has to serve in the armed forces, with a few exceptions. The time served is usually 180, 270 or 362 days depending on the training. Of course no rite of passage makes a man out of a boy over night, but the conscription is many times considered to do just that.

Coming from a country that has been through two World Wars and a civil war within the time of a few generations many Finns see their time spent in the armed forces as a tribute to the war veterans, and it isn't uncommon for my generation that at least one of the grandparents fought in the war(s) which again of course affects how our parents were raised.

This greatly differs from for instance our neighbors Sweden where conscription is commonly viewed as out-dated and pointless. From what I've witnessed that is how many young men feel like before the conscription period in Finland as well, but afterwards give great value to the experience.


----------



## Outsider

badgrammar said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have been reading recently about the the "journey" boys make as they grow into men.  I think it's fairly clear that in most occidental countries, and outside of certain religious communities who formalize this passage, rites of passage today have been reduced to things like getting one's driver's licence, having sex for the first time, getting a first job, etc.
> 
> I am curious to know how boys in your country are accompanied in the transition from boy to man.
> 
> Is there a conscious, deliberate rite of pasage for boys in your culture, an accompaniment by elder men, mentors, etc?  If not, was there something similar in the past that has now fallen by the wayside?  Please explain what it is/was, and it's purpose.


The closest thing there is in Portugal, excepting perhaps some immigrant communities which I don't know well enough to talk about, is confirmation, a Catholic ceremony where adolescents officially state their faith (since they're normally baptized when they are still babies). But it's purely religious, it's the same for boys and girls, and it does not bring about any change in the way that teenagers are treated socially, since it happens when they're still in their mid-teens.

I also can't think of a time when there were such rites of passage around here.

P.S. Oh, yeah, Pando's post above has just reminded me of one: conscription, indeed (age varies between 18 and 20-something). But military service became voluntary half a decade ago. 



badgrammar said:


> Do you think it is necessary for male children to be somehow initiated into adult life?  Is it something lacking in your society?  Have boys been left to find their own way?
> 
> Is a boy's journey seen in the same light as a girl's, or are there fundamental spiritual, social differences that are/should be taken into consideration?
> 
> Finally, did you yourself (or your male friends/relatives) benefit from something like this?  Do you think it has any importance in helping boys grow up to be exceptional men?


Sometimes I wonder about that. Teenagers seem to have a need to belong to a group, to prove that they are a part of something. When I think of how confusing and distressing that period of life can be, and how many young men get into drugs or other dangerous activities, or commit suicide during that time, I do wonder whether some sort of coming-of-age ritual could bring them more emotional stability.


----------



## badgrammar

Thank you all for your insights, they are greatly appreciated.  

It is true that the guidance boys recieve from communities and elders is not always something so organized or institutionalized that we can describe it, quantify it, or give it a name -- it is simply the parentling and mentoring that occurs quite naturally.  Unfortunately there are a lot of break-downs in the process in modern society, and I do think a lot of young men fall by the wayside because of it, particularly in societies where families are often mono-parental, and the extended family so geographically scattered that boys go without it. 

The book I've been reading also addresses boys' need to belong to some sort of "tribe", to feel part of something greater than themselves.  When they lack elder mentors (male) who help them to feel part of a group, they will tend to form or become part of an exclusively "younger" tribe, lacking in guidance.  And that's a lot of where gang membership comes from.  Fascinating food for thought. 

Again, thanks for your contributions!


----------



## jonquiliser

joining in on what pando says above, military service is definitely seen (and stigmatised) by many as a rite of passage to become 'a real man'. unfortunately, I have to say, because it is a sad thing that this should form a male ideal - but it does go hand in hand (again, sadly) with the masculinity as exercised by many, of hierarchy and domination. 

and no, I would say 'a boy's journey' isn't seen in the same light as that of a girl; the expections and demands and ideals are very different and gendered.


----------



## mirx

Two hundred years ago (probably even less) in México, fathers would take their boys to a brothel and *make* them have their first sexual relation. Nowadays all those things are fortunately gone.

Life is much more complicated now, but I would say the things that remain as symbol of that passage are:

First time drunk
Frist sexual intercourse (not forced)
First job
First grilfriend.

There should be a male model for a boy growing up, it's a natural need in a situation where there's no fatherm. An uncle, grandfather, cousin, older brother, etc, Would help.

If the boy still needs to be part of a group, but you're not very happy that he's into gangs, then there are many associations for young boys. A church group will help, a sport's club, etc.

Too bad that marketing and globalization have taken all our traditions away.


----------



## avok

In Turkey, traditionally, a boy turns into a man for the first time  when he is "circumcised".


----------



## tvdxer

It seems like the "rights of passage" in American culture today are for both sexes, not just males.  Though hunting (at the age of 12) might be a sort of "male" - dominated ritual, but hardly a universal one.  

I would say the path to adulthood goes something like this:

Age 12 -
Hunting, snowmobile,
etc. license (rural areas)

Age 16 -
Driver's license

Age 18 
High school graduation

Age 18 - 30 -
Moving out and getting a "real" job, and graduating college

Age 18 - 32 (average 27-30) -
Marriage and children

Once you are married, have kids, and are independent, you are a full "adult" in American culture.  That's how it seems to me at least.


----------



## sokol

In Austria also not specifically for boys only, but for boys and girls:

12 years (for Christians): confirmation, a religious rite which originally should mean something like a step towards adulthood but isn't very much considered important in this way any more, at least not by the children (though probably by the parents)

12-15 years: the first signs of puberty, where of course only first beard and first menstruation count as 'positive' (but rather not pimples, for example)

(13)-14-16 years: first moped (allowed only from 16 years on but many ignore laws here and feel very 'adult' for doing so), first smoke, first alcohol, and so on: you know the litany

18 years: driver's license, and first own car, and high school graduation (= the so-called _Matura _which is called _Reifeprüfung _= literally 'exam of maturity' and really felt as something like 'now you _are _adult!'), but then still many Austrians never go to high school

18 years: right to vote (for some regional elections already 16 years); this for many constitutes the beginning of adulthood; these days there's a discussion to lower the right to vote for all elections to 16 years: if this happens this may change

After having the right to vote most Austrians feel 'adult'. It is not necessary at all to marry or to have children, though many still think that you're really 'settled' only when you've got family.


----------



## Mjolnir

In Israel, the two main male rites of passage are the Bar Mitzvah at age 13 (females have Bat Mitzvah when they're 12 or 13) and the military service at age 18 (females have to serve two years, males three).



avok said:


> In Turkey, traditionally, a boy turns into a man for the first time  when he is "circumcised".



When does that happen in Turkey?


----------



## avok

Before reaching the puberty, usually between 7-10 years of age. Unlike Jewish boys. So, a boy at 7 is supposed to start to feel more like a man once he is circumcised.


----------



## Mjolnir

Ouch ...
Brit milah is performed on the eighth day of the child's life (unless health reasons force a delay).
I guess you can call it a rite of passage (it's a religious ceremony within Judaism to welcome infant Jewish boys into a covenant between God and the Children of Israel), but I don't think it's a boy-->man passage since it's done when the child is eight days old. Maybe baby-->boy


----------



## Broccolicious

badgrammar said:


> how without guidance from fathers, mentors, elders, boys today have a hard time understanding, knowing where they fit into society, and what it means to be "a man". Which is why so many boys (in the US in articular) join gangs, act out criminally, become violent, have a hard time in relationships, dealing appropriately with their sexuality, etc.


 
Hi - what an interesting question! My organisation works with an NGO in Central America that runs brilliant 'masculinity' workshops for young men. It started as part of an HIV/AIDS prevention strategy, but the young men and their communities have developed it into a whole series of discussions around what it means to be a man in the 21st century. So far the results have been extremely positive, and I definitely think we could benefit from something similar in the UK!


----------



## alexacohen

Mjolnir said:


> In Israel, the two main male rites of passage are the Bar Mitzvah at age 13 (females have Bat Mitzvah when they're 12 or 13) and the military service at age 18 (females have to serve two years, males three).


Hi,

Same for Jewish people here. Except military service is not compulsory for anyone.


----------



## Cracker Jack

In my country, a boy is not considered initiated to manhood unless he is circumcised at the onset of puberty - 13 or 14 years old.  There is a reason behind this choice of age, in terms of psychologic consequences.  Usually at age 12, the castration complex starts to get resolved.  It is unsound to submit a boy to circumcision before this complex is resolved.

Boys are eager to be initiated to manhood especially at the start of the summer season because complete healing takes place in 2 weeks.  A boy gets ridiculed if he reaches 18 still intact.  I informed some of my European male friends who are mostly intact about this.  They are of the opinion that the society is machista.  To them this is totally absurd.


----------



## avok

Cracker Jack said:


> In my country, a boy is not considered initiated to manhood unless he is circumcised at the onset of puberty - 13 or 14 years old.


 
Do boys from Phillipines get circumcised?  (i.e. in a Catholic country)


----------



## mirx

Cracker Jack said:


> In my country, a boy is not considered initiated to manhood unless he is circumcised at the onset of puberty - 13 or 14 years old. There is a reason behind this choice of age, in terms of psychologic consequences. Usually at age 12, the castration complex starts to get resolved. It is unsound to submit a boy to circumcision before this complex is resolved.
> 
> Boys are eager to be initiated to manhood especially at the start of the summer season because complete healing takes place in 2 weeks. A boy gets ridiculed if he reaches 18 still intact. I informed some of my European male friends who are mostly intact about this. They are of the opinion that the society is machista. To them this is totally absurd.


 
I am not from Europe but this is absurd for me as well. I think most males in Mexico are uncircumcised, but being or not being is not an issue. I for one have never heard or been in a conversation where circumcision is the main topic (or second topic). I do understand however that each culture has its own traditions and rituals. I don't understand though, why your Spanish friends think it is machista.

Cheers.


----------



## Outsider

Very interesting! Is circumcision an ancient local tradition in the Philippines, or was it introduced by the Americans?


----------



## Cracker Jack

To answer your question avok, yes boys get circumcised.  Although it is painful, they prefer to go under the knife because it is a cultural rite of passage.  Some jokingly consider it a test of manhood.  Absurd as it may seem, it is observed.  A boy would feel humiliated if his peers would know that he is uncut.  Some males who do not undergo it early, opt for it before getting married.  

Out I am not really sure about it but I think it is one of the influences of Americans.  So aside from Jews, Muslims and Americans, Filipinos too are circumcised.


----------



## mirx

Cracker Jack said:


> To answer your question avok, yes boys get circumcised. Although it is painful, they prefer to go under the knife because it is a cultural rite of passage. Some jokingly consider it a test of manhood. Absurd as it may seem, it is observed. A boy would feel humiliated if his peers would know that he is uncut. Some males who do not undergo it early, opt for it before getting married.
> 
> Out I am not really sure about it but I think it is one of the influences of Americans. So aside from Jews, Muslims and Americans, Filipinos too are circumcised.


 
Is it completely widespread in the Philipins or does it only affcte certain groups?

In the States some poeple are and some people aren't and I don't see this being a big issue, it's much lesss practiced today then it was a few decades ago, and I never heard of it being associated with manhood but rather with hygene and good health.

Cheers.


----------

