# Urdu-Persian-Hindi: anjuman



## Qureshpor

*anjuman*, *bazm* and *maHfil* are commonly used words in Urdu, especially in its literature. If I decided to visit each one of them in turn, would they be different places or simply the same place with a different name? Is an anjuman in a different league altogether compared with bazm and maHfil?

Just to assist you (Urdu and Hindi speakers) with my question, here are examples of their usage in Urdu poetry. 

yih charaaGh-i-*anjuman* to bas ek shab ke haiN mahmaaN
tuu jalaa vuh sham3a ai dil jo bujhe kabhii nah jal ke

(These lamps in the *anjuman* are visiting just for the night!
Ignite such a candle, O heart, that burns but never goes out)

Khumar Barabanki

bharii *bazm* meN raaz kii baat kah dii
baRaa be-adab huuN sazaa chaahtaa huuN

(In this jam-packed *bazm*, I have divulged a secret
How very rude of me! I do deserve to be punished!)

Iqbal

buu-i-gul naalah-i-dil duud-i-charaaGh-i-*maHfil*
jo tirii *bazm* se niklaa, so pariishaaN niklaa!

(Fragrance of the rose, lament of the heart, smoke from the *maHfil* lamp
Whatever/Whoever arose from your *bazm*, arose in a disturbed state)

Ghalib

A question for Hindi speakers. Are these words known in Hindi *sabhaa*s?


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## Faylasoof

QURESHPOR said:


> *anjuman*, *bazm* and *maHfil* are commonly used words in Urdu, especially in its literature. If I decided to visit each one of them in turn, would they be different places or simply the same place with a different name? Is an anjuman in a different league altogether compared with bazm and maHfil?
> 
> Just to assist you (Urdu and Hindi speakers) with my question, here are examples of their usage in Urdu poetry.
> 
> yih charaaGh-i-*anjuman* to bas ek shab ke haiN mahmaaN
> tuu jalaa vuh sham3a ai dil jo bujhe kabhii nah jal ke
> 
> (These lamps in the *anjuman* are visiting just for the night!
> Ignite such a candle, O heart, that burns but never goes out)
> 
> Khumar Barabanki
> 
> bharii *bazm* meN raaz kii baat kah dii
> baRaa be-adab huuN sazaa chaahtaa huuN
> 
> (In this jam-packed *bazm*, I have divulged a secret
> How very rude of me! I do deserve to be punished!)
> 
> Iqbal
> 
> buu-i-gul naalah-i-dil duud-i-charaaGh-i-*maHfil*
> jo tirii *bazm* se niklaa, so pariishaaN niklaa!
> 
> (Fragrance of the rose, lament of the heart, smoke from the *maHfil* lamp
> Whatever/Whoever arose from your *bazm*, arose in a disturbed state)
> 
> Ghalib
> 
> A question for Hindi speakers. Are these words known in Hindi *sabhaa*s?


 Although all three can be _*used synonymously*_, I think _anjuman_ has a slightly broader meaning. _maHfil_ and _bazm_ are closer to each other, I feel. At least the way we use them:

_anjuman  / bazm / maHfil_ = association, society, gathering assembly etc. However, we reserve the former for more general use, unlike the latter two. For example:

_anjuman-e-baahamii imdaad_ = co-operative society

Could you use _maHfil_ and _bazm_ instead of _anjuman_ here? Hmm...  the former two we usually associate with literary societies, associations while the latter seems to have broader usage.

_mazduur anjuman / anjuman-e-mazduur_  = Labour League / Labour Union.

Can we have, _ maHfil-e-mazduu_r / _bazm-e-mazduur_ ? Both sound odd! Perhaps because the way we use these (_maHfi / bazm_) is too closely associated with literary and cultural activities.

In Hindi usage _anjuman,_ _mahfil _(= _maHfil_) are used I thought, esp. amongst the older generation. _bazm_ would also be known to members of the same (older) generation. As for the younger people, at least they would have heard of _anjuman_ and many might even know what it means. My Hindi dictionaries certainly have _anjuman_ listed!


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## Jervoltage

بزم = هر مجلس عمومآ. (آنندراج) محفل و انجمن​In everyday Persian, I'd use _*بزم*_ for a gathering of Sufis though.


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## flyinfishjoe

I think many Hindi speakers would recognize महफ़िल _mahfil_ and अंजुमन _anjuman_. I have heard them used before and they can both be found in government Hindi textbooks. To be honest, though, I've never heard बज़्म _bazm_​ before and I don't think many Hindi speakers would be able to understand it.


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## greatbear

"mehfil" is known to most Hindi speakers, especially to those whose first language is Hindi. "Anjuman" is known by certain people, but not all (e.g., myself): to know words like these one has to grow up in places like Lucknow, regardless of it existing in a dictionary or not (how many English native speakers know the word bandobast, even if it exists in the Oxford dictionary?). "Bazm" is further uncommon among Hindi speakers, though certainly not completely unknown. Do note, however, that the word "mehfil" often conveys the sense of an evening of erotic poetry, wine, bohemianism and/or "aiyaashi" to most Hindi speakers.

As regarding Hindi itself, one also has "sammelan" and "milan" as very common words besides "sabhaa" for gatherings.


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> "mehfil" is known to most Hindi speakers, especially to those whose first language is Hindi. *"Anjuman" is known by certain people, but not all (e.g., myself): to know words like these one has to grow up in places like Lucknow, regardless of it existing in a dictionary or not (how many English native speakers know the word bandobast, even if it exists in the Oxford dictionary?)*. "Bazm" is further uncommon among Hindi speakers, though certainly not completely unknown. Do note, however, that the word "mehfil" often conveys the sense of an evening of erotic poetry, wine, bohemianism and/or "aiyaashi" to most Hindi speakers.
> 
> As regarding Hindi itself, one also has "sammelan" and "milan" as very common words besides "sabhaa" for gatherings.


  So what about this:


flyinfishjoe said:


> I think many Hindi speakers would recognize महफ़िल _mahfil_ and _*अंजुमन anjuman. I have heard them used before and they can both be found in government Hindi textbooks*_. To be honest, though, I've never heard बज़्म _bazm_​ before and I don't think many Hindi speakers would be able to understand it.


 What do you make of this claim then? I don't think flyinfishjoe was talking about any dictionary. He says that it can be found in "_*government Hindi textbooks*_". Unfotunately, I don't have any recent copies of _*"government Hindi textbook" *_to confirm this. In older textbooks "_*अंजुमन *_" did exist but I guess it has been deleted, except perhaps for Hindi books meant for Luckhnow only!


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## greatbear

Faylasoof said:


> So what about this:
> What do you make of this claim then? I don't think flyinfishjoe was talking about any dictionary. He says that it can be found in "_*government Hindi textbooks*_". Unfotunately, I don't have any recent copies of _*"government Hindi textbook" *_to confirm this. In older textbooks "_*अंजुमन *_" did exist but I guess it has been deleted, except perhaps for Hindi books meant for Luckhnow only!



Since when did government Hindi textbooks begin to define people's Hindi? Not to mention the deep suspicions of some of the Urduphones here of these very books, when they encounter the so-called "pure" Hindi there - why don't they accept equally those Hindi words then? Why does it seem some "program" or "propaganda" in that case?
It's amusing to me, the hypocritical stand by many of the members here.


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## Qureshpor

"anjuman" is a word whose life span in India would require a measure which is as long as at least a millennium and even then you might need to use this measure more than once. I suspect the word came with the Parsi community's shift to India and if it did n't come then, it most certainly would have come with later Farsi speaking communities. Here is a list of Parsi anjumans in the country. They appear to be spread throughout India.

http://ignca.nic.in/bibzs004.htm

Anjuman-i-Punjab was founded in 1865 and in the begining of the 20th Century (1903) "Anjuman-i-taraqqii-i-Urdu" was established and this continues to have offices in all major towns and cities of India, including those cities which are historically known to have been centres of Urdu influence such as Delhi, Aligarh, Lucknow, Hyderabad etc.

There are a couple of well known films which go under the title "Anjuman", one made in 1948 and the other in 1986. The latter one I believe was a "blockbuster" and was well received by its audiences.

Here are a few places of learning with the word "Anjuman" being central to the title.

Anjuman- Bangalore  Hindi-Urdu Poetry Club

Anjuman Islam High School-Mumbai

Anjuman Urdu-Hindi Sahitya- Bihar

Anjuman High School, Kolkatta ( West Bengal)

Anjuman Girls’ Degree College Nagpur, Maharashtra

Anjuman Shopping Complex, Jabalpur, Madya Pradesh

Anjuman Degree College, Anjumanabad, Bhatkal, Kannada

Anjuman Metric Higher Secondary School-Chennai, Tamil Nadu

Anjuman College of Arts and Commerce- Belgaum, Karnataka

It is true that just because a word is in a particular language dictionary, this does not automatically mean that all the speakers of that language will know it. But it does mean that the author of the dictionary considers the word to be part of the said language. I have seen "anjuman" in "A Practical Hindi-English Dictionary- Mahendra Caturvedi" and "Hindi Shabadsagara".

Now coming to personal names. There is a certain "Ashok Anjuman " who has written a book entitled, "Hindi ke lokpriya Gazalkaar". I have also come across someone called "Anjuman Saxena". Now, with all these "ajnumans" flying around in India, I am truly surprised that "crores" of Hindi speakers are oblivious of this word. Here are two couplets by Iqbal, one taken from a "nazm" and the other from a "Ghazal".

dunyaa kii maHfiloN se uktaa gayaa huuN yaa rab       
kyaa lutf *anjuman* kaa jab dil hii bujh gayaa ho 

ga'e din kih tanhaa thaa maiN *anjuman* meN 
yahaaN ab mere raaz-daaN aur bhii haiN!

Here endeth my "propagandizing" of the word "anjuman". I shall avoid responding to the "hypocrisy" accusation.


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## greatbear

QURESHPOR said:


> There are a couple of well known films which go under the title "Anjuman", one made in 1948 and the other in 1986. The latter one I believe was a "blockbuster" and was well received by its audiences.



1. Your definition of blockbuster is indeed quite different then; the 1986 Anjuman doesn't even have 5 votes till now on imdb as at the time of writing, a very unusual thing for a blockbuster from any cinema, let alone Bollywood.
2. If Hindi film names have started defining what people speak, then why the reluctance of people here to accept Sanskrit-derived words, since films with such titles are also as or much more successful as those two Anjumans? Examples include Govind Nihalani's "Sanshodhan", the 1970 film "Darpan" and the famous TV series of the eighties, again "Darpan".
A film like "Pakeezah" is a major Indian film; that does not mean that Hindi speakers use "paak" or "paakezaah" in their vocabulary, or even understand them.

I am not even going into the futile names you have provided as an argument: you are probably trying to prove that "anjuman" exists. Of course, it does; I even said in my earlier post certain number of Hindi speakers understand it. But most don't. In the mind-boggling diversity that India is, you come up with some names of centers of learning and pen names of people, what does that prove? Nothing!



QURESHPOR said:


> I am truly surprised that "crores" of Hindi speakers are oblivious of this word.



Good  Surprise is good: it's never late learning something new.


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## Alfaaz

> Not to mention the deep suspicions of some of the Urduphones here of these very books, when they encounter the so-called "pure" Hindi there - _why don't they accept equally those Hindi words then?_ Why does it seem some "program" or "propaganda" in that case?
> It's amusing to me, the hypocritical stand by many of the members here.



I'd say that many Urdu speakers don't have a problem at all with the "pure" Hindi found in textbooks or even in media. I personally find it really interesting to listen to, even if I am not able to understand half of what is being said. It gives one insight into another culture and language. Also it may sound "exotic", just as Hindi speakers might say to an Urdu speaker "Wow, you sound so poetic!" 

This goes into the issue that has been discussed many times previously: what sounds artificial and what sounds normal. It is all subjective. To the pure Hindi speaker, s/he will sound normal and the Urdu speaker like poetry recitations of Ghalib or Iqbal or even too Persianized/Arabicised; While to the Urdu speaker, the Hindi speaker might sound like a recitation of the Ramayan or Mahabharat....(these are of course exaggerations just to make a point). 

Lastly, both these traditions and cultures and languages should be kept alive. There is nothing wrong with borrowing from one language to the other (completely natural), but it should not start to take over the "original" words. So both karan and wajh (and reason) should be used in Hindi and Urdu, respectively, without any inhibitions about borrowing/switching from time to time.   "Sammelan" , "milan" and "sabhaa" should be given equal priority as given to Urdu words like anjuman, mahfil, etc. in general Hindi media/Bollywood and elsewhere...


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## tonyspeed

greatbear said:


> In the mind-boggling diversity that India is, you come up with some names of centers of learning and pen names of people, what does that prove? Nothing!
> .



He has a point QP-ji. Have you ever tried to read the Hindi on an Indian Visa/Passport? In any case, it is probably safe to conclude anjuman is now-a-days an Urdu-leaning word. It also strikes me as possibly telling circumstantial evidence
that in the IMDB entry it is now called "Congregation" with the note: "formerly known as Anjuman".


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> A film like "Pakeezah" is a major Indian film; that does not mean that Hindi speakers use "paak" or "paakezaah" in their vocabulary, or even understand them.
> 
> Well, you may be right about "paakiizah" but "paakiijaa" is certainly there. Here is a recipe for "paniir paakiijaa" if you are in the mood for a cheese based dish.
> 
> http://www.vayanjan.com/?p=374
> 
> And here is Leena Paakiijaa proudly showing her "Young Scientist Award".
> 
> http://nvonews.com/2009/01/20/शोध-छात्रा-लीना-पाकीजा-को/
> 
> I am not even going into the futile names you have provided as an argument: you are probably trying to prove that "anjuman" exists. Of course, it does; I even said in my earlier post certain number of Hindi speakers understand it. But most don't. In the mind-boggling diversity that India is, you come up with some names of centers of learning and pen names of people, what does that prove? Nothing!
> 
> You seem to be missing the point. For someone to be called "Anjuman Saxena" (which I believe is the young lady's real name) and Ashok Anjuman, the word *is* there in the Hindi speaking people's psyche to have entered into their personal lives. It is immaterial if the name is a pen name or not.
> 
> http://in.linkedin.com/in/anjumansaxena66
> 
> Good  Surprise is good: it's never late learning something new.
> 
> is nukte ke liye maiN aap kaa shukr-guzaar huuN. aap bhii kabhii-kabhaar ko'ii kitaab paRh liyaa kareN.  agar aap Ashok Anjuman kii kitaab hii paRh lete to shaayad Hindi GhazloN meN aap ko "anjuman" lafz mil jaataa aur phir aap is se vaaqif ho jaate!


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## Qureshpor

Faylasoof said:


> Although all three can be _*used synonymously*_, I think _anjuman_ has a slightly broader meaning. _maHfil_ and _bazm_ are closer to each other, I feel. At least the way we use them:
> 
> _anjuman  / bazm / maHfil_ = association, society, gathering assembly etc. However, we reserve the former for more general use, unlike the latter two. For example:
> 
> _anjuman-e-baahamii imdaad_ = co-operative society
> 
> Could you use _maHfil_ and _bazm_ instead of _anjuman_ here? Hmm...  the former two we usually associate with literary societies, associations while the latter seems to have broader usage.
> 
> _mazduur anjuman / anjuman-e-mazduur_  = Labour League / Labour Union.
> 
> Can we have, _ maHfil-e-mazduu_r / _bazm-e-mazduur_ ? Both sound odd! Perhaps because the way we use these (_maHfi / bazm_) is too closely associated with literary and cultural activities.
> 
> In Hindi usage _anjuman,_ _mahfil _(= _maHfil_) are used I thought, esp. amongst the older generation. _bazm_ would also be known to members of the same (older) generation. As for the younger people, at least they would have heard of _anjuman_ and many might even know what it means. My Hindi dictionaries certainly have _anjuman_ listed!




I agree with your analysis. It seems that the overlap or synonymity in these three words was more so in older Urdu than the modern language. Taking a look at the three definitions from Steingass, there are obvious points of convergence. But, there are a few stark differences too.

 بزم _bazm, A banquet, entertainment, as- sembly, convivial meeting; society; a pavilion;--bazmi sangīn, A largely attended banquet.
_
A انجمن _anjuman,_ A company, assembly, banquet, congregation, *synagogue*, congress, any place where people meet and converse; a multitude;--_anjuman shudan,_ To be gathered, collected;--_anjumani kah-kashān,_ The milky way;--_anjumani_

محفل _maḥfil, maḥfal, A place or time of meeting; an assembly, congregation, coun- cil, convention, congress, society, *chorus*; a* dancing party;* *a pulpit, tribunal;--**maḥfili qaẓā, A court of justice;*--__*maḥfili *nām u nang, The day of resurrection.

_"bazm" is often contrasted with "razm" (war/battle), as here by Iqbal.

narm dam-i-guftuguu, garm dam-i-justujuu
razm ho yaa bazm ho, paak-dil-o-paak-baaz


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## greatbear

Alfaaz said:


> I'd say that many Urdu speakers don't have a problem at all with the "pure" Hindi found in textbooks or even in media. I personally find it really interesting to listen to, even if I am not able to understand half of what is being said. It gives one insight into another culture and language. Also it may sound "exotic", just as Hindi speakers might say to an Urdu speaker "Wow, you sound so poetic!"
> 
> ...
> 
> Lastly, both these traditions and cultures and languages should be kept alive. There is nothing wrong with borrowing from one language to the other (completely natural), but it should not start to take over the "original" words. So both karan and wajh (and reason) should be used in Hindi and Urdu, respectively, without any inhibitions about borrowing/switching from time to time.   "Sammelan" , "milan" and "sabhaa" should be given equal priority as given to Urdu words like anjuman, mahfil, etc. in general Hindi media/Bollywood and elsewhere...



Welcome and sensible words, indeed, Alfaaz! I hope we had more Urdu and Hindi speakers with that broad mind-set. Many of the members on this particular forum have a problem with "pure" Hindi, and I am happy to know you are not one of them.


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## greatbear

Since you answer everything within a quotation box itself, it is impossible to quote you, QP: I advise you to forego the practice, since otherwise pointing out your flawed arguments becomes highly exhausting to others.

You will find names like "Darling Sharma" and "Dickey Patel" in India ("dickey" is an English word the trunk/hood of the car where you put luggage): so? What does having a name like Anjuman prove? The word exists? Of course, everyone knew that, the word exists; it is the meaning that is obscure for most of us. How many people in the West know the meanings of their names like Arthur? Most will tell you there was some saint or king, but very few know the actual meaning and derivations of those names.
Names like Anjuman only come across as the oddities you meet with in life, especially in a country like India, which is not merely a mix of languages, traditions and foods, but even that of ethnicities and origins and thought systems: the ultimate diversity and richness.


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## Qureshpor

greatbear said:


> Since you answer everything within a quotation box itself, it is impossible to quote you, QP: I advise you to forego the practice, since otherwise pointing out your flawed arguments becomes highly exhausting to others.
> 
> You will find names like "Darling Sharma" and "Dickey Patel" in India ("dickey" is an English word the trunk/hood of the car where you put luggage): so? What does having a name like Anjuman prove? The word exists? Of course, everyone knew that, the word exists; it is the meaning that is obscure for most of us. How many people in the West know the meanings of their names like Arthur? Most will tell you there was some saint or king, but very few know the actual meaning and derivations of those names.
> Names like Anjuman only come across as the oddities you meet with in life, especially in a country like India, which is not merely a mix of languages, traditions and foods, but even that of ethnicities and origins and thought systems: the ultimate diversity and richness.




Well, one good thing that has come out of this forum is that you have become familiar with the meaning of this "oddity". This is indeed a result! Let's move on.


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## Alfaaz

> Welcome and sensible words, indeed, Alfaaz! I hope we had more Urdu and Hindi speakers with that broad mind-set. Many of the members on this particular forum have a problem with "pure" Hindi, and I am happy to know you are not one of them.



Thanks; I don't think anyone has a problem with "pure Hindi", although people might have a problem with labeling an Urdu word _as Hindi "because it is used in Hindi"_ or labeling a Hindi word _as Urdu just "because it is used in Urdu"_...for example: 

If a person says  اشتیاقِ ملاقات  (ishtiyaaq-e-mulaqaat) or ذہنی توازن (zihni tawazun) is Hindi, that's probably stretching a bit too far; just as if a person says "servasesht abhinetri" or "mansik santolan" is Urdu....(not sure if the transliteration is correct)


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> Originally Posted by *Faylasoof*
> So what about this:
> What do you make of this claim then? I don't think flyinfishjoe was talking about any dictionary. He says that it can be found in "*government Hindi textbooks*". Unfotunately, I don't have any recent copies of *"government Hindi textbooks" *to confirm this. In older textbooks "*अंजुमन *" did exist but I guess it has been deleted, except perhaps for Hindi books meant for Luckhnow only!
> 
> 
> 
> Since when did government Hindi textbooks begin to define people's Hindi? Not to mention the deep suspicions of some of the Urduphones here of these very books, when they encounter the so-called "pure" Hindi there - why don't they accept equally those Hindi words then? Why does it seem some "program" or "propaganda" in that case?
> It's amusing to me, the hypocritical stand by many of the members here.
Click to expand...

 Who said that the government was ‘defining’ people’s Hindi? Nobody suggested that the government is dictating how people should speak! The point was very simple, I think. The question originally raised (many moons ago in another thread) was would Hindiphones be familiar with the word *anjuman*. Now one could argue that the question is not very precise and it could have been better worded. Perhaps one should ask whether those Hindiphones who have had the good fortune to be schooled, like you for example, would have come across this word. I see you claim that this word is, or rather was, unknown to you. You said:


greatbear said:


> "mehfil" is known to most Hindi speakers, especially to those whose first language is Hindi. *"Anjuman" is known by certain people, but not all (e.g., myself)* …...


 Presumably you did not study the above mentioned *"government Hindi textbooks" *perhaps because you grew up in and went to school in a part / parts of India where Hindi wasn’t taught, otherwise you would have read these books! That is perfectly fine. Now we have a better picture of your background and we take this into account when next time you make sweeping statements about certain words not being familiar to Hindiphones or not being used by them. I fully understand that what is called the “Hindi belt” is a large area and when next time you make a generalization about the popularity and usage of a word then I hope you keep this fact in mind.  .... and to say that the word *anjuman* exists in Hindi but most don't know its meaning is to give them less credit than they deserve! There are times when you seem to be seeking an argument just for the sake of it! 


greatbear said:


> As regarding Hindi itself, one also has "*sammelan*" and "*milan*" as very common words besides "sabhaa" for gatherings.


I’m not sure who these Urduphones here are that you refer to as being _suspicious_ of “pure Hindi” , esp. that found in the government Hindi textbooks!  Not sure what you really mean! I know many Urduphones who are genuinely interested in knowing shuddh Hindi. In fact, I am often asked by these people where to find the very Hindi textbooks we are talking about or their equivalents! So let us give this one a rest!

As for the word *sammelan*, I guess most Urduphones outside India may use it less or not at all but quite a few (may be most) will be at least familiar with it due to Indian dramas in Hindi which are watched all over Pakistan, Europe, the Americas and other parts of the world.  Indian Urduphones have no problem with words like *sammelan*! The word *milan* on the other hand is very much part of Urdu vocabulary and is regularly used all over.

I must make one final point! It may interest you and others here that the Urdu Lughat Board (Urdu Language Board) - originally founded in pre-partition India but relocated to Karachi, Pakistan, after 1947 -  has produced the most comprehensive Urdu dictionary. One of its aim was precisely to re-incorporate thousands of “pure” Hindi words that blended well with the “music” of Urdu! I don’t have this 22 or 23 volume dictionary with me but have seen it and it’ll be interesting to find out if this and other comprehensive Urdu dictionaries have words like *sammelan*. It would not surprise me if they do!


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## panjabigator

We seem to have had a similar conversation in the past in this thread. I don't remember that thread going too well.


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## greatbear

Faylasoof said:


> Who said that the government was ‘defining’ people’s Hindi? Nobody suggested that the government is dictating how people should speak! The point was very simple, I think. The question originally raised (many moons ago in another thread) was would Hindiphones be familiar with the word *anjuman*. Now one could argue that the question is not very precise and it could have been better worded. Perhaps one should ask whether those Hindiphones who have had the good fortune to be schooled, like you for example, would have come across this word. I see you claim that this word is, or rather was, unknown to you. You said:
> Presumably you did not study the above mentioned *"government Hindi textbooks" *perhaps because you grew up in and went to school in a part / parts of India where Hindi wasn’t taught, otherwise you would have read these books! That is perfectly fine. Now we have a better picture of your background and we take this into account when next time you make sweeping statements about certain words not being familiar to Hindiphones or not being used by them. I fully understand that what is called the “Hindi belt” is a large area and when next time you make a generalization about the popularity and usage of a word then I hope you keep this fact in mind.  .... and to say that the word *anjuman* exists in Hindi but most don't know its meaning is to give them less credit than they deserve! There are times when you seem to be seeking an argument just for the sake of it!
> 
> I’m not sure who these Urduphones here are that you refer to as being _suspicious_ of “pure Hindi” , esp. that found in the government Hindi textbooks!  Not sure what you really mean! I know many Urduphones who are genuinely interested in knowing shuddh Hindi. In fact, I am often asked by these people where to find the very Hindi textbooks we are talking about or their equivalents! So let us give this one a rest!



Unfortunately, you've got a wrong idea of my background: of course I studied Hindi in school, and in addition my parents, who also are unfamiliar with the meaning of "anjuman", even studied Hindi in a Hindi-medium school in the Hindi heartland of western UP itself! Who's making sweeping statements? None of my friends from places as diverse as Rajasthan and UP, both Hindi areas, know the meaning of "anjuman": what is amusing is that what satisfaction will you get if the word is more popular?
Also, you've got the facts as well wrong, Hindi is taught all over India, even in Tamil Nadu - it's the national language of India. In older times, Tamil Nadu was the only exception, but now people not only learn Hindi there but also speak it. In the rest of South India, there are of course many speakers of Hindi as a second or third language, especially in urban areas.

As for where did I get suspicions about some of the Urduphones here, one only needs to refer to the thread pointed out by panjabigator, as well as a few others, like http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2189809&page=2


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## BP.

QURESHPOR said:


> ...
> بزم _bazm, A banquet, entertainment, as- sembly, convivial meeting; society; a pavilion;--bazmi sangīn, A largely attended banquet.
> _
> A انجمن _anjuman,_ A company, assembly, banquet, congregation, *synagogue*, congress, any place where people meet and converse; a multitude;--_anjuman shudan,_ To be gathered, collected;--_anjumani kah-kashān,_ The milky way;--_anjumani_
> 
> محفل _maḥfil, maḥfal, A place or time of meeting; an assembly, congregation, coun- cil, convention, congress, society, *chorus*; a* dancing party;* *a pulpit, tribunal;--**maḥfili qaẓā, A court of justice;*--__*maḥfili *nām u nang, The day of resurrection.
> ..._




Would you say *bazm ee alast* or *anjuman ee alast*?

The question is for everybody.


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## Alfaaz

> Would you say *bazm ee alast* or *anjuman ee alast*? The question is for everybody.



Is this the same "alast" as in the Quran 7:172 (اَلَسۡتُ بِرَبِّكُمۡ‌ -Am I not your Lord) and the following: 

نہ غم کشود و بست کا 
بلند کا، نہ پست کا 
نہ بود کا، نہ ہست کا
نہ وعدۂ '* اَلَسْت* ' کا 

WRF has the following thread: bezm-i alast

Could someone perhaps explain these- bazm-e-alast and wa'dah-e-alast...(alast means "Am I not", so literally they would mean "congregation of Am I not" and "promise/covenant of Am I not") but I understand that they are used to refer to "covenant of/with creation" or "congregation of all creation"...; Is this understanding correct?


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## arsham

Bazm at least in Persian means feast, banquet and could refer to any gathering involving festive celebrations!
anjoman, which in contemporary Persian is used only in the sense of association, meant assembly or gathering in general. In Middle Persian hanja/oman from ham +gam-to come/go (cf. âmadan >Old Persian *âgmatanaiy) which litterally means "coming together". In the classical texts any assembly is refered to as anjoman thus the gatherings of court notables or the attendees of such assemblies are called anjoman in shahnameh


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Would you say *bazm ee alast* or *anjuman ee alast*?
> 
> The question is for everybody.



None of them. The gathering of whole mankind from which God took the covenant can not be compared with a "bazm", "anjuman" or "maHfil". This is for the simple reason that all these words carry other meanings besides a "gathering"


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## Alfaaz

> None of them. The gathering of whole mankind from which God took the covenant can not be compared with a "bazm", "anjuman" or "maHfil". This is for the simple reason that all these words carry other meanings besides a "gathering"



Would اجتماع or جماعت work?

Edit: or نشست or جَلْسَہ?


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## eskandar

Alfaaz said:


> Could someone perhaps explain these- bazm-e-alast and wa'dah-e-alast...(alast means "Am I not", so literally they would mean "congregation of Am I not" and "promise/covenant of Am I not") but I understand that they are used to refer to "covenant of/with creation" or "congregation of all creation"...; Is this understanding correct?


I'm no expert, but I believe you have the right idea here. As I remember, the question "am I not your Lord?" (الست بربکم) is asked of all of humanity (بني آدم) and their affirmative answer itself is mankind's covenant (وعده or عهد) with God. I don't remember coming across بزم الست in Persian poetry (though I wouldn't be surprised to see it), but I've often seen references to روز الست (the day of 'الست') or عهد الست (the covenant of الست). For example:

مقام عیش میسر نمی شود بی رنج
بلی به حکم بلا بسته اند عهد الست
(Hafez)

مطلب طاعت و پیمان و صلاح از من مست
که به پیمانه کشی شهره شدم روز الست
(Hafez)


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## Qureshpor

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Would you say *bazm ee alast* or *anjuman ee alast*?
> 
> The question is for everybody.



Further (and partially contrary) to what I have said in reply to you, here is Khvaajuu, using "bazm-gaah".

biyaa kih Halqah-nashiinaan-i-bazam-gaah-i-alast
zadand bar dar-i dil Halqah-i-dar-i-xumaar




Alfaaz said:


> Would اجتماع or جماعت work?
> 
> Edit: or نشست or جَلْسَہ?



I had محشر  in mind but I don't believe this would be correct. Perhaps  ijtimaa3 or majma3?


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## BP.

eskandar said:


> ... I don't remember coming across بزم الست in Persian poetry (though I wouldn't be surprised to see it)...


A long time ago I did come across بزم الست while reading something from Rumi, but like always can't get back to it.


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## Faylasoof

greatbear said:


> Unfortunately, you've got a wrong idea of my background: of course I studied Hindi in school, and in addition my parents, who also are unfamiliar with the meaning of "anjuman", even studied Hindi in a Hindi-medium school in the Hindi heartland of western UP itself! Who's making sweeping statements? None of my friends from places as diverse as Rajasthan and UP, both Hindi areas, know the meaning of "anjuman": what is amusing is that what satisfaction will you get if the word is more popular?
> Also, you've got the facts as well wrong, Hindi is taught all over India, even in Tamil Nadu - it's the national language of India. In older times, Tamil Nadu was the only exception, but now people not only learn Hindi there but also speak it. In the rest of South India, there are of course many speakers of Hindi as a second or third language, especially in urban areas.
> 
> As for where did I get suspicions about some of the Urduphones here, one only needs to refer to the thread pointed out by panjabigator, as well as a few others, like http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2189809&page=2


I have no intention of prolonging this fruitless discussion with you but I would like to clarify a thing or two.  Expressing an opinion is perfectly OK, but it is just that – an opinion! To then start generalizing (e.g. the familiarity / non- familiarity  of a word for speakers of a language) is, I feel, irresponsible because then one confuses new comers and the uninitiated to the Hindi-Urdu languages. This is my main concern! _It is therefore not a matter of my satisfaction what we are discussing here regarding the word *anjuman *(or other words like it that are used in everyday Urdu and Hindi)._ _It is sorting out a few facts!_  If government Hindi textbooks are _still_ mentioning the word then the suggestion that the word will be familiar to only those growing up in places like Luckhnow is patently wrong (post# 5)!...and I do know for a fact that Hindi is taught throughout the country! 

_BTW, the thread you refer to is irrelevant to the present discussion!  I shall not say anymore on this as it’ll be going off-topic! _


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## Faylasoof

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Originally Posted by *eskandar*
> ... I don't remember coming across بزم الست in Persian poetry (though I wouldn't be surprised to see it)...
> 
> 
> 
> A long time ago I did come across بزم الست while reading something from Rumi, but like always can't get back to it.
Click to expand...

 BP SaaHib, I'm trying to recall this (بزم الست) in reference to Rumi but in the meantime you can have a look at this. Here various compounds of الست _alast_ are mentioned (e.g."روز الست" ; "بامداد الست"; "شراب الست"; "مست الست" "مهد الست" etc.) and the use of الست _alast_ by various poets. There is also a remark as to what these compunds refer to and there is this remark too:

و چون این یاد آوری همه را در "*بزم الست*"، همکیش و دارای پروردگار واحد می کند، عارفان آنرا" باده وحدت" گفته اند (46 

BTW, if people want to discuss الست _alast_ (and its various compounds) then let us start a new thread with this title and not discuss it here.


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## nineth

I agree with _greatbear_ here.  Let me first say what those words mean to me. I've heard mehfil and know what it means. I barely remember hearing anjuman and have no clue what it means; I've never heard bazm. Based on the number of Hindi speakers from all over north India that I grew up and went to school with (all the way up to end of college), I can conclude the same for a majority of native Hindi speakers.


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## Faylasoof

The discussion concerning which word is common place amongst speakers and which not depends on a number of factors, including where one comes from (i.e. one's native language / dialect) and what kind of books one studied during one's formative years at school. That too is important, unless of course the original suggestion was wrong (post#4) ! 

I too am a native speaker of Urdu and Colloquial Hindi so let us give the issue of "native speakers" a rest here!


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## greatbear

....

Also please specify, since you are so keen on facts, which government books have "anjuman" and where all are they used: because even if some of us Hindi speakers and learners didn't manage to sleep through our studies, we never managed to find a single "anjuman" in our textbooks.


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## Faylasoof

As far as _anjuman_ occurring in Hindi textbooks goes, please refer to post#4 above. That is not my post! Please feel free to ask flyinfishjoe. 
 ...You may now wish to read something light. May be Neeraj Goswami or go to the _anjuman_ अंजुमन page of the same site which talks of Hindi _ghazals_: हिंदी ग़ज़लों का भारतीय साहित्य में महत्वपूर्ण स्थान है।...etc.. http://www.anubhuti-hindi.org/anjuman/index.htm


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