# 常常 / 总是



## ivoclubm

大家好。下段话是从HSK模拟试题集。录音说：“麦克很爱玩儿，常常这个周末还没过完，就开始安排下个周末的活动了。“ 
然后，录音说：“下个周末麦克没有活动”。我得选择这个句子（麦克下个周末没有活动）是“对”或者“错”。
听完了以后我觉得不清楚，很可能麦克有活动，但麦克没有活动也不是不可能的。因为录音说：“。。。常常。。。。。。安排下个周末活动“，我知道了麦克常常安排活动，但是有时候他可能没有安排”， 所以肯定得知道下个周末麦克有还是没有活动就是不可能的。我的书说：”根据“常常这个周末还没过完，就开始安排下个周末的活动了”可知麦克周末总是有活动安排。所以这句话是错的。"
我觉得常常和总是没有一样的意思。我想问问你们觉得怎么样。谢谢。


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## learntheworld

个人认为这是出题者出题时的不严谨。“常常”和“总是”虽然近义，但确切地说，它们在程度上肯定是不同的。
当然，如果这道题还有其他相关背景信息说明“麦克总是有活动”的话，那当然也要根据这些信息来判断。
如果只是单独的一道题，并且只提供了这样多的信息，确实是无法判断对错的。
出题时出现不够完善的情况应该是存在的，所以不必感到太困惑。
无论如何，做这道题的时候，应该不会选择“对的”这一选项吧。


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## spammehere

如果就可能性來說
麥克在周末有活動的可能性要大於沒有　而且大很多
所以
我覺得應該選錯

另外
你說得對 "總是" 跟 "常常" 意思不一樣
"總是" 比 "常常" 發生的機率要高


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## ivoclubm

learntheworld said:


> ...........
> 当然，如果这道题还有其他相关背景信息说明“麦克总是有活动”的话，那当然也要根据这些信息来判断。
> .......



谢谢你的回应。这道题其它的信息什么都没有。
I will switch to English. 
I don't really care about the right or wrong answer, I take the HSK test just because I like to study Chinese and not because I need to, so a high test score is not my concern. I just wanted to know if this question is messed up or if there are situations in which Chinese people will read the above sentence and agreeing with the explanation given by the textbook will decide that Mike definitely makes plans for every next weekend. I understand that the combine meaning of "米克很爱玩儿“and”常常这个周末还没过完，就开始安排。。。“ could lead some/many people to conclude that Mike always has plans for the next weekend, but since it is part of a test question I would expect more rigorous requirements for the correct meaning of every and each word. Do I, as a foreigner, miss something which is obvious for Chinese people. Thank you.


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## Skatinginbc

ivoclubm said:


> I just wanted to know if this question is messed up


The test designer was messed up (drunk or wasted) .    The question, which could confuse people even native speakers (e.g., me), certainly lacks test validity.  Your understanding of those terms is correct.  You didn't miss anything obvious.


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## zhg

常常说明不出意外他下周是会有活动的，这种可能性是相当高的。换种问法可能会好理解：他下周会有活动。这句话是对的。


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## Skatinginbc

“麦克很爱玩儿，常常这个周末还没过完，就开始安排下个周末的活动了“ implies “下周末麦克很可能会有活动" (an educated guess), which is not the same as “麦克下个周末有活动” (a fact).
"A is probably black" (an educated guess) does not equate to "A is black" (a fact). 
Response  time is often an important factor in a standardized language test.  It  is justified on the ground that language proficiency has a bearing on  the response time.  Those that know the correct answer right away are  presumed to have a higher proficiency than those that need longer time  to figure it out.  This particular test item, however, would make those  that grasp the fine difference between “很可能会有活动" and “有活动” think twice.   In other words, a person who knows the language very well could  actually stumble or take longer time on this one.  It is therefore not  valid.  To reach the correct answer, it demands a certain type of IQ and  personality unrelated to the language ability.  Odd brains like mine  may have a disadvantage, not because of the language ability, but  because of my reluctance to equating an educated guess to a fact.  It is  supposed to be a language test, not a personality test that separates  "normal" brains from "abnormal" ones.  By the time I would decide to take the most likely answer  rather than the "correct" answer (which is non-existent in my mind),  I  would have missed the time.  So it is a test for my "IQ", not my  language ability.  Test validity is the extent to which a test  accurately measures what it purports to measure  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_validity).  Testing one's IQ and  personality is not a valid language test.


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## stellari

Logically speaking, this question is not answerable. However,  if I forget about logic for a minute then I would have a strong impression that Mike has plans for most of the weekends (>95%), and very possibly all of them. Because there is indeed a slight difference between 

常常这个周末还没过完，就开始安排下个周末的活动了 
and 
常常在周末有活动. 

if the original sentence uses the second expression, then it is definitely problematic since Mike only has plans for a good percentage of weekends (say ~60%) and whether he has a plan for a specific weekend is not known. However, the first expression, suggests that Mike loves playing even to the point that he often arranges for the next weekend one week ahead of time. If he "*often*" makes such early arrangements, then it is reasonable to speculate he almost "*always*" have a plan for all the weekends, only sometimes his arrangements are not so early. Although it is still not certain that whether Mike would have a plan specifically for the next week, there is a very, very high probability that he would. 

As far as I am concerned, the designers of such tests apparently fail  to express themselves unambiguously on this question. When you come across questions like this, you need to choose the most probable answer.


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## ivoclubm

stellari said:


> .......... However, the first expression, suggests that Mike loves playing even to the point that he often arranges for the next weekend one week ahead of time. If he "*often*" makes such early arrangements, then it is reasonable to speculate he almost "*always*" have a plan for all the weekends, only sometimes his arrangements are not so early. .......



   Wow, this really is an interesting point of looking at it, but I doubt that the author of the question was going so deep. My impression is that the HSK questions are pretty straightforward and never, or almost never are designed to deliberately confuse the test-taker. There are even some cases where you could get the answer only by hearing the question without even hearing the explanation itself. So in my mind the above case is just an accidental confusion on the part of the question's author and not a deliberate attempt to mislead and confuse the test-taker. Besides it is from a mok test book, made only for preparation and I hope there won't be such a non-clear question during the actual test.
   Thank you everyone for your time and efforts to help me understand better the situation. 
   Best regards,


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## SuperXW

我会选「错」。
你说的有道理。严格地讲，问题和答案并不能建立逻辑上的对应关系。
不过，这种题目要求通常是「*选择最佳答案*」，而非「*绝对准确的答案*」。It's the "best answer" or "most possible answer", but not necessarily the "exact answer". 虽然题目本身不严谨，你还是得选「错」。
我觉得这问题是建立在口语的直觉上的。假如一个人这样跟你讲麦克，那你就得assume他每个周末都有活动。


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## stellari

ivoclubm said:


> Wow, this really is an interesting point of looking at it, but I doubt that the author of the question was going so deep. My impression is that the HSK questions are pretty straightforward and never, or almost never are designed to deliberately confuse the test-taker. There are even some cases where you could get the answer only by hearing the question without even hearing the explanation itself. So in my mind the above case is just an accidental confusion on the part of the question's author and not a deliberate attempt to mislead and confuse the test-taker. Besides it is from a mok test book, made only for preparation and I hope there won't be such a non-clear question during the actual test.
> Thank you everyone for your time and efforts to help me understand better the situation.
> Best regards,



Actually I was just explaining an instinctive impression of mine with reasoning, which happens only subconsciously in my mind, if at all. All I was trying to say is that the question may seem logically problematic, but in daily conversations, it will rarely be interpreted otherwise. Anyway, best of luck on the test.


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## ivoclubm

I thought that that the topic is over, but today I had two Chinese friends who actually told me that in the above mentioned sentence they understand "常常“to actually mean ”总是“ and had no problem with choosing the answer "wrong" because they were sure Mike will have something planed every time. One of them said that in everyday situation she will often use "常常“ with the meaning of "always". I am talking about people from Guangzhou.


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## spammehere

"常常“to actually mean ”总是“ ???!!!
In Guangzhou, Maybe


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## zhg

Actually I think the examiners do not want to test your reasoning ability,but to see if one can understand 常常 in the context, and expect one to make ,as most Mandarin speakers do, a reasonable deduction from it. So is the case here, though these two words do not mean the same thing, and I am pretty sure the examiners are aware of that, because they have not phrased the question in an absoltue tone of voice asking you if he has partys on everyweekend afterwards,but instead they form the question in a way that asks you whether "next week",for one time, he will have a party or not. And I think this is answerable because if he won't have a party next week the speaker, for the sake of sanity, speakers definitely will provide more information on with another sentence starts with conjunctions 但是，可是，然而etc. E.g. 但是他下周要考试不得不在家复习。
So, I think, as far as the original context is concerned without "buts" information, it's pretty normal to assume that he will have a party next week.


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## Skatinginbc

HSK scores are often used for selection purposes (e.g., selecting foreign   students that apply for university enrollment in China).  In an academic  setting especially in the fields of science, rigid logical thinking is a  must.  This particular test item puts those who stick to strict logic  in a disadvantage and therefore lacks _Predictive Validity_.  Besides 常常 ≠ 总是, 安排活动 ≠ 有活动 (just as 筹钱 ≠ 有钱, 编理由 ≠ [/COLOR][/COLOR]有[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]理[/COLOR]由) and 开始安排 ≠ 安排完毕 (e.g., 开始做饭 ≠ 做完饭了).
选择最佳答案，not 准确的答案,  entails so-called "test smart", which is not part of the language  ability it is supposed to measure.  The test description says 选择惟一恰当的答案, not 选择最佳答案.  It is therefore lacks _Test-retest Reliability_.  One who has practiced the test will gain an advantage, an advantage that a good standardized test is supposed to minimize.


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## ivoclubm

Thanks all. Yesterday there was another Chinese person who told me that in her mind Mike will definitely have something planned. On my pointing to the "常常“ she answered that if it was "经常“ instead of "常常“ then she could not be sure. She claimed that "常常“ has much higher degree of probability which makes it, together with all the other circumstances in the sentence, to mean almost "总是“. Anyhow, it obviously will get more and more confused the more we dig in it. Once again, I don't care at all about the way to get the answer right, it is the thinking of the question author and then of all the Chinese people I talked to that has my interest. 


> ....it's pretty normal to assume that he will have a party next week.


 From my point of view it is also pretty normal to assume that there would be some weekends(or just one weekend)when Mike would not have a party. Besides, my understanding is that such kind of question should not be about assuming the degree of possibility about the outcome, but it should be about knowingly and categorically answering "Yes" or "No".
  Best regards,


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## zhg

I think this is why context matters. You have to understand words in contexts, and this context tells me that he will have a party next week. Otherwise the speakers are just wasting everybody's time.


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