# Slovak: heroes and villains



## laur&a

Ahojte vospolok,

do you have a particular word for "the villain" in a novel, drama? I thought of "zlà postava, zloduch (Czech: PADOUCH), zlosyn ...", and hero can be "hrdina"?

Thanks


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## TKD

Ahoj,

_zloduch_ and _zlosyn_ are fine for "villain". Some other possibilities: _lump, darebák, podliak, lotor..._ Sometimes it may depend on the context. "Hero" is _hrdina_.


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## laur&a

TKD said:


> Ahoj,
> 
> _zloduch_ and _zlosyn_ are fine for "villain". *Some other possibilities*: _lump, darebák, podliak, lotor..._ Sometimes it may depend on the context. "Hero" is _hrdina_.



Hi, TKD, and thanks for your reply.

The words for  a "bad guy" are many in all languages, but usually there is one (or two) to refer to the bad guy in a story. In English we say:
_"Humphrey Bogart usually plays the villain (/the heavy)",_ 
of course, we can say_ " plays the : rascal, ...."_
but it is not a set phrase.
In the Czech wiki, they have only Padouch. Do you have a wider choice in Slovak?
Thanks


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## TKD

Well, I'm not an expert on this, but I would say _zloduch_ is the word.


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## laur&a

Vel'mi pekne d'akujem, TKD


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## Azori

laur&a said:


> The words for  a "bad guy" are many in all languages, but usually there is one (or two) to refer to the bad guy in a story.


I don't think there is such word in Slovak. However, if the bad guy is the main character (or one of the main characters), we would use *záporný hrdina* (the opposite is *kladný hrdina;* _kladný_ = positive). A heroine is *hrdinka (kladná / záporná hrdinka).*


> In English we say:
> _"Humphrey Bogart usually plays the villain (/the heavy)",_
> of course, we can say_ " plays the : rascal, ...."_
> but it is not a set phrase.


I think in this case we would usually say _"...hrá zápornú / negatívnu postavu"_ (...plays the evil character) or _"...hrá záporného_ _hrdinu",_ or one can be more specific and use words like _zločinec_ (criminal), _vrah_ (murderer) etc.


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## TKD

Azori seems to be right.

There also is a derived word from _záporná postava / záporný hrdina_ - _záporák - _which I would say is often used, but it's an informal word, thus should be used that way.


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## laur&a

TKD said:


> Azori seems to be right.
> 
> There also is a derived word from _záporná postava / záporný hrdina_ - _záporák - _which I would say is often used, but it's an informal word, thus should be used that way.


I am not sure we can translate "_hero and villain" _with _"hrdina a zaporny hrdina"_, perhaps your first offer was more appropriate, I checked with SAV corpus.


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## francisgranada

laur&a said:


> I am not sure we can translate "_hero and villain" _with _"hrdina a zaporny hrdina"_, perhaps your first offer was more appropriate, I checked with SAV corpus.


"kladný a záporný hrdina" (if we speak about two separate persons)


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## Azori

francisgranada said:


> "kladný a záporný hrdina" (if we speak about two separate persons)


I'd rather go for "kladný hrdina a záporný hrdina", or even "kladní a záporní hrdinovia" (a plural form). "kladný a záporný hrdina" is like speaking about a single person.


laur&a said:


> I am not sure we can translate "_hero and villain" _with _"hrdina a z*á*porn*ý* hrdina"_, perhaps your first offer was more appropriate, I checked with SAV corpus.


"hrdina a zloduch" isn't much better, in my opinion. It's hard to give advice without knowing the context.


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## francisgranada

Azori said:


> I'd rather go for "kladný hrdina a záporný hrdina", or even "kladní a záporní hrdinovia" (a plural form). "kladný a záporný hrdina" is like speaking about a single person ...


I agree, though it depends also on the context.


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## Azori

"kladný a záporný hrdina" could work for two persons if followed by a word in a plural form.


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## laur&a

francisgranada said:


> I agree, though it depends also on the context.



Hi Francisco, there is no context it is a set phrase. "zaporny hrdina" is more like the "antihero"


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## Azori

laur&a said:


> "z*á*porn*ý* hrdina" is more like the "antihero"


Antihero translates as _antihrdina _in Slovak. There's a difference between _antihrdina_ and _záporný hrdina. Hrdina_ is used for good characters as well as bad characters.


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## laur&a

Azori said:


> I'd rather go for "kladný hrdina a *záporný hrdina*",... "hrdina a zloduch" isn't much better, in my opinion. It's hard to give advice without knowing the context.


Hi, I accept your opinion, if there is* no* set phrase, any solution will do.
but:  "_zloduch"_ has 191 occurrences in SAV corpus, _"zaporny hrdina_" only one!
In Italian we just say _*"the good one and the bad one*_", as simple as that! But it is a set phrase and everybody gets the message.


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## Azori

laur&a said:


> but:  "_zloduch"_ has 191 occurrences in SAV corpus, _"zaporny hrdina_" only one!


How about these:

zaporny hrdina

záporný hrdina


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## laur&a

Azori said:


> How about these:
> záporný hrdina



Your link gives only 10 occurrences in all-Slovak language,we are discussing about the translation of "villain"


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## Azori

laur&a said:


> Your link gives only 10 occurrences in all-Slovak language,we are discussing about the translation of "villain"


Of course we are discussing the translation of "villain". Click the button "nasledujúci →" to see more occurrences there.

Still, a more common word may not necessarily be appropriate for your translation.


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## laur&a

Azori said:


> Of course we are discussing the translation of "villain". Click the button "nasledujúci →"* to see more occurrences there*.



I really can't see your point, Azori, so, instead of 10 *there are 20 *(if I didn't miss any, again)! But, even if there were 20 000 occurrences of that word in Slovak texts, what has *that* to do  with our discussion? Probably if you search "_lump"_ you'll get more than 191 occurrences. Does that show that _"villain"_ is to be translated with_ "lump"_?


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## Azori

laur&a said:


> I really can't see your point, Azori


http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=hrdina&s=exact&c=Ufd8&d=sss&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=zloduch&s=exact&c=Ve2a&d=sss&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

http://slovniky.korpus.sk/?w=lump&s=exact&c=y9ec&d=sss&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Pick the right words.


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## laur&a

Azori said:


> Pick the right words.



I just reported the occurrences in* transations* from English, Azori, I am not supposed to choose the right word, I suppose. 
You chose " _hrdina a zaporny hrdina_", that's all right by me


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## TKD

In my opinion, if we say _záporný hrdina_, we should also say *kladný* _hrdina_. So it's _kladný hrdina a záporný hrdina_, as Azori has mentioned.


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## Azori

laur&a said:


> You chose " _hrdina a zaporny hrdina_", that's all right by me


Is there a post in this thread where I wrote "hrdina a zaporny hrdina"? Please tell me.

In your first post of this thread you asked how we say "hero" and "villain" in Slovak, not how we would translate "a hero and a villain" into Slovak (at least this is how I understood it).


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## laur&a

laur&a said:


> do you have a particular word for *"the villain"* in a novel, drama? I thought of "zlà postava, *zloduch* (Czech: PADOUCH), zlosyn ...", and* hero can be "hrdina"*?





Azori said:


> *I don't think there is such word in Slovak. However, if the bad guy is the main character* (or one of the main characters), we would use *záporný hrdina* .





Azori said:


> I'd rather go for* "*kladný* hrdina a záporný hrdina"*, .





Azori said:


> Is there a post in this thread where I wrote "hrdina a zaporny hrdina"? Please tell me.


Ahoj Azori, just a few remarks:

1)When the protagonist is a good guy it's a hero, in every language, there is no need to specify a *"good = kladn*y" hero
2) when he is a bad guy it is an "*antihero = antihrdina*"

3) when there is a hero, usually there is a *"villain*".  "villain" in Slovak can be "lotor, dareback, lump,...", I asked if you use a *particular *word (one of these) to identify the villain in a novel, a drama, that is: how you translate (*TITLE) * heros and villains. In English if we say *"hero and scoundrel* " or " *hero and bad hero"* it sounds odd!
That's about it!


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## Azori

laur&a said:


> 1)When the protagonist is a good guy it's a hero, in every language, there is no need to specify a *"good = kladn*y" hero
> 2) when he is a bad guy it is an "*antihero = antihrdina*"
> 
> 3) when there is a hero, usually there is a *"villain*".  "villain" in Slovak can be "lotor, dareback, lump,..."


Ok, I see you speak Slovak better than possibly anybody else here. Why bother replying?


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## TriglavNationalPark

Just a quick reminder to everyone: Please try to remain as civil and polite as possible, even when you disagree with someone.


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## laur&a

TriglavNationalPark said:


> Just a quick reminder to everyone: Please try to remain as civil and polite as possible, even when you disagree with someone.



Thanks TNV


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## laur&a

laur&a said:


> Ahoj Azori, just a few remarks:
> 
> 1)When the protagonist is a good guy it's a hero, in every language, there is no need to specify a *"good = kladn*y" hero
> 2) when he is a bad guy it is an "*antihero = antihrdina*"
> 
> 3) when there is a hero, usually there is a *"villain*".  "villain" in Slovak can be "lotor, dareback, lump,...", I asked if you use a *particular *word (one of these) to identify the villain in a novel, a drama, that is: how you translate (*TITLE) * heros and villains. In English if we say *"hero and scoundrel* " or " *hero and bad hero"* it sounds odd!
> That's about it!





Azori said:


> Ok, I see* you speak Slovak bette*r than possibly anybody else here.


Hi Azori, I bother to reply  :

- You can check my statements on wiki (_antihero_ etc...) or anywhere else: they *do not regard Slovak* as such, they are general culture: (good, positive hero = kladny hrdina is redundant, to say the least).
- The fact that you are Slovak does not imply that you are always right.
- Try to be courteous and at least re-read what you wrote, it is *the second time* you forget what you wrote and* hint I do not* understand
- I did* not *mention Slovak, I said that _"hero and scoundrel_" sounds odd, but now I venture to add that,_ (even if my Slovak is lousy)_, I suppose that even in Slovak you cannot use the whole range of possible translations: I suppose that _"hrdina a lump,..."_  sounds a bit odd too.

Take care!


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## Azori

laur&a said:


> - You can check my statements on wiki (_antihero_ etc...) or anywhere else: they *do not regard Slovak* as such, they are general culture: (good, positive hero = kladny hrdina is redundant, to say the least).


That's great that you use Wikipedia to back up your statements.

I did a quick search here: http://slovnik.juls.savba.sk/?lang=en and look what I've found:


> *2.* ústredná postava lit. diela: _kladný h._


ústredná postava lit. diela = the main character in a literary work (as you see, it is not defined as "good" or "bad")

http://slovnik.juls.savba.sk/?w=hrdina&s=exact&c=a3fb&lang=en&d=kssj4&d=psp&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


> *2.* zlý, neželateľný, negatívny, _op._ kladný: _z. hrdina, mať z-é vlastnosti_


http://slovnik.juls.savba.sk/?w=záporný&s=exact&c=a3fb&lang=en&d=kssj4&d=psp&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


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## laur&a

Azori said:


> That's great that *you use Wikipedia t*o back up your statements.





Azori said:


> Antihero translates as _antihrdina _in Slovak. *There's a difference* between _antihrdina_ and _záporný hrdina. _.


This is what you may learn from wiki: what is _"antihrdina"! 
_then you can tell* what is the difference ?*


laur&a said:


> 2) *when the protagonist *he is a bad guy it is an "*antihero = antihrdina*"
> 3) when there is a hero, usually there is a *"villain*".  "villain" in Slovak can be "lotor, dareback, lump,...", I asked if you use a *particular *word (one of these) to identify the villain in a novel, a drama, that is: how you translate (*TITLE) * heros and villains. In English if we say *"hero and scoundrel* " or " *hero and bad hero"* it sounds odd!





laur&a said:


> - I did* not *mention Slovak, I said that _"hero and scoundrel_" sounds odd, but now I venture to add that,_ (even if my Slovak is lousy)_, I suppose that even in Slovak you cannot use the whole range of possible translations: I suppose that _"hrdina a lump,..."_  sounds a bit odd too.!



I'll try to explain the isuue once more, than I'll give up:
1) you are quoting over and over SAV to show what you can say in Slovak. That is wide of the mark.
Also in Italian and in English we * COULD *say "kladny a zaporny hrdina", but there is a huge difference between what we can say and what we* really do say in a given context.
* Can you get that?
The issue at hand is : what is the best way to render in Slovak "_ [the] hero and [the] villain"_ "_il buono e il cattivo_" "_héros et Mechant_" _"héroe y villano"....... ?
_
"hero" is "hrdina" anyway, "villain" has many equivalents: are they *all equal in this context?
This is the question:* in the context of a story and* not* as a general term of abuse, is 

-"hrdina a zloduch" on the same footing as 
"hrdina a nanichodnik"
"hrdina a lump"... etc ???


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## francisgranada

Ciao, Laura.

(don't give up ...)

Lump, zloduch, podliak, ... seem to me rather specific terms and not general enough. So we can say that e.g. "XY hrá vo filmoch lumpov", but it is not the same as "XY hrá vo filmoch záporné postavy". The _lump _is for me a special kind of "záporná postava".  So also "hrdina a zloduch" means for me "hero and villain" but rather in the_ true sense _of the words _hero _and _villain_, and not as a_ terminus technicus_. However, it is context dependant. 

Now, let's try to find some logic (if possible ...) :

Hrdina - hero in general
Hlavný hrdina/Hlavná postava - protagonist, person in  "title-role" (positive or negative)

Záporná postava - person in negative role
Kladná postava - person in positive role
Záporný hrdina - protagonist in negative role
Kladný hrdina - protagonist in positive role

But ... according to my feeling, the difference between _hrdina _and _postava_ is not that "sharp" in this context, they are almost interchangeable (at least in most of the cases). 


> The issue at hand is : what is the best way to render in Slovak "_ [the] hero and [the] villain"_ "_il buono e il cattivo_" "_héros et Mechant_" _"héroe y villano"....... ? _


I'm afraid that in case of a novel, film etc ... we usually say in Slovak "Kladná postava a záporná postava" (or _hrdina _instead of _postava_) even if it's a bit "complicated" ... On the other hand, speaking about two persons in general, we can say e.g. "Peter je hrdina ale Jozef je zloduch/lump/naničhodník  ...." 

P.S. A proposito, in italiano "eroe e villano" non si dice/usa? (visto che hai menzionato "héroe y villano")


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## laur&a

francisgranada said:


> So also "hrdina a zloduch" means for me "hero and villain"
> * Now, let's try to find some logic* :
> Hrdina - hero in general
> and (Hlavný) hrdina*/=* Hlavná postava* = *protagonist,* =* person in  "title-role" (positive or negative)
> 
> Záporná postava - person in negative role
> Kladná postava - person in positive role
> "Kladná postava a záporná postava" (or _hrdina _instead of hlavna _postava_)
> 2) *Záporný hrdina -* protagonist in negative role* = antihero*
> Kladný hrdina - protagonist in positive role
> _1) P.S. A proposito, in italiano "eroe e villano" non si dice/usa? (visto che hai menzionato "héroe y villano"_*) *



Hi Francis,
thanks for your comprehensive and brilliant post.
1) in Italian "villano" has kept the original Latin meaning of "_man from the country_" and means just a "_hick, boor, clout, rough/ill-mannered person_"
2) you confirm what I (and wiki) said: "_zaporny hrdina_" is just the "_antihero_", no difference there,

- when we say the_ "villain[s]_" of a story we do* not* refer to a _technical term_ in the movies,
we just mean,( and say in English, too), "_the goodies_ [and the baddies]". 
*"hero[s] and villain[s]"* is a set phrase, a catchphrase you can find even  in many pop songs, from the BeachBoys to Brian Wilson, Mike Diva ...etc: I think the best solution you find when you translate the famous line:
 " we can be heroes, ...we can be villains..."
How does it sound: "_ mozeme byt kladni hrdnovia/postavy....alebo mozeme byt zaporne postavy/hrdinovia" _?


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## francisgranada

laur&a said:


> ...  " we can be heroes, ...we can be villains..."
> How does it sound: "_ mozeme byt kladni hrdnovia/postavy....alebo mozeme byt zaporne postavy/hrdinovia" _?


I think it sounds good. In a more general context (not strictly meaning roles but rather characters) I'd probably prefer "môžeme byť hrdinovia alebo môžem byť zločinci". 

Examples from the net:

"Už bolo dosť Johna Waynea a jeho superkladných hrdinov a superzáporných zločincov, ktorí vždy hrali podľa vopred daných pravidiel. Bolo na čase ukázať ... "

"V poviedkach vystupujú záporní hrdinovia, ktorí si podmaňujú nič netušiacich ľudí, ktorí im bezhlavo veria ..."

"V nej zápasí dobro so zlom, ktoré predstavujú kladní a záporní hrdinovia. V našom  príbehu oboch hrdinov môže predstavovať aj samotný kliešť. Dej má tri časti...."


As to antihrdina, for me it is the same as záporný hrdina, but I personally dont't hear this word too often ...


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## laur&a

francisgranada said:


> 1) (not strictly meaning roles *but rather characters)* I'd probably prefer "môžeme byť hrdinovia alebo môžem byť zločinci".
> 2) As to* antihrdina, for me it is the same as záporný hrdina,* but I personally dont't hear this word too often ...



1) Yes, Francis, we are talking only about characters, when I first mentioned "_ in a novel, a drama"_ I was referring ,of course, only to characters and* not to roles, *probably H.Bogart led  the discussion astray.
 So _"postava_" is ruled out.

2) Let's wait for Azori to explain what is, in her opinion, the difference between "_antihrdina"_ and "_zaporny hrdina"_, because , it there is none as you said, then 
also "_kladny hrdina a zaporny hrdina_" is ruled out

If Azori shows a substantial difference between the two terms and we are justified in using "zaporny hrdina" as a translation of "villain" then and only then, (according to stylistics and rhetorics) we should prefer "_kladny hrdina"_ to "hrdina". The *redundancy* would be justified by *symmetry.*

I do hope I made myself clear this time


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## Azori

laur&a said:


> - You can check my statements on wiki (_antihero_ etc...)





laur&a said:


> This is what you may learn from wiki: what is _"antihrdina"!
> _then you can tell* what is the difference ?*





laur&a said:


> you confirm what I (and wiki) said: "_zaporny hrdina_" is just the "_antihero_", no difference there,





laur&a said:


> Let's wait for Azori to explain what is, in her opinion, the difference between "_antihrdina"_ and "_zaporny hrdina"_, because , it there is none as you said, then also "_kladny hrdina a zaporny hrdina_" is ruled out




Could you please post a link to that Wiki article?


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## Azori

It looks like we can't discuss this issue anymore as laur&a has been banned.

The reason I asked is that there doesn't seem to be an article titled "Antihrdina" in the Slovak version of Wikipedia (well, I just could not find any). There are just articles in other languages (as in English - Antihero, or Czech - Antihrdina etc.). Based on what I've read about this word so far (including the Czech Wiki article), I'd say that "antihrdina" and "záporný hrdina" aren't really synonymous (but that's just my opinion).


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