# καμπάνες



## OssianX

I know this means "bells," and also that it's not the most common word for "bell."  (Is it specifically church bells?)  But I also know it is used for "bell-bottom" or flared trousers.

Here's the last line of a poem:  "και τις καμπάνες φορτωμένες στις μοτοσυκλέτες".  (The context, for what it's worth: these are things heard from down inside a well, things including "τα βήματα, πάνω, απ’ τα πεταλωμένα παιδιά τους.")  Bells fit with "heard," but not very well with motorcycles--I've seen people carry an awful lot on scooters, but church bells would be pushing it.  On the other hand, flared pants might go with the motorcycles.  (The poem was written in 1971.)

You see my problem!


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## cougr

Re: "και τις καμπάνες φορτωμένες στις μοτοσυκλέτες".

"Καμπάνα" is also used to refer to a clutch bell. So one possible literal rendition of the line could be "and the clutch bells mounted on the motorcycles" or something to that effect. They can be quite noisy at times.

Edit: I know, given that we are talking about a poem it is highly unlikely that the above would be the most apt translation but it's only suggested as a remote possibility.


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## shawnee

I thought it was a poetic way of describing motorcycles as modern γαϊδάροι.


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## OssianX

Thanks, cougr -- but what on earth is a clutch bell?  I've never heard of it.


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## Eltheza

Hi OssianX!

I'm English but lived in Greece for a long time and learning Greek was my main interest. 'Καμπάνα' is specifically 'church bell', as far as I know, and in the plural is used for bell-bottoms, as you said.

I wonder if the flares of the guys on the motorcycles are jingling with money? And that's why they can be heard from down the well?

Who's the poet? By the way, something totally irrelevant: 'καμπάνα ακτής' is a 'beach hut'. I don't now if you have those in the States (I lived in New England for five years but can't remember seeing any). They are found at English seaside resorts. (Tried to send you a pic but I'm not allowed - have a look at 'beach huts' on Google Images!)


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## OssianX

shawnee said:


> I thought it was a poetic way of describing motorcycles as modern γαϊδάροι.



I thought of something like that.  But aside from the fact that motorcycles have horns rather than bells like a bicycle (the bicycle-bell notion would get in the way of the image, I think), I wasn't sure that φορτωμένες could be used that way.  Can it?  In English you might say a car was "loaded with cup-holders," and you'd mean that it had as many cup-holders as anyone could ever want; but it's a pretty idiomatic use of "loaded."  Can φορτώνω work that way?


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## OssianX

Eltheza said:


> Who's the poet? By the way, something totally irrelevant: 'καμπάνα ακτής' is a 'beach hut'.



Yannis Ritsos; the poem is called "Μεσ' απ' το Πηγάδι"

Thanks for the info about beach huts.  I imagine you're right that it's not relevant, but it does suggest that the word is available for metaphorical application.


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## cougr

OssianX said:


> Thanks, cougr -- but what on earth is a clutch bell?  I've never heard of it.



A mechanical part on motorbikes(or any vehicle for that matter) that is essential for the transmission of power from the engine to the tyres and is often modified to increase performance. 

Although this is the only type of "καμπάνα" I know of that directly relates to motorbikes, I doubt that this is what Ritsos had in mind when writing the poem. But then again who knows?


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## shawnee

I took φορτωμένες to mean 'loaded on'. I realise it is stretching it a bit but then I'm not sure what verb would be used for attaching the cow bells I'm imagining.


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## Cynastros

Υπάρχουν και  ‘’ καμπάνες’’ με την έννοια της τιμωρίας


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## OssianX

Cynastros said:


> Υπάρχουν και  ‘’ καμπάνες’’ με την έννοια της τιμωρίας



Thanks -- I had not run across that.  I don't see that it would work in this context, though.


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## Cynastros

OssianX said:


> Thanks -- I had not run across that.  I don't see that it would work in this context, though.


It does not matter, but give more text


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## OssianX

I started to summarize, and then realized it doesn't work well.  Here's the whole poem:

		ΜΕΣ ΑΠ’ ΤΟ ΠΗΓΑΔΙ

Να μην ξεχάσεις τουλάχιστον τη λέξη. Να την κρατήσεις
πιο μέσα, πιο βαθιά απ᾽ το φόβο, μέσα στο σταύλο
με τα δυό κόκκινα άλογα και τόνα λευκό σκοτωμένα,
με τα λουριά των σκυλιών κρεμασμένα στον τοίχο,
το μαχαίρι πίσω απ᾽ την πόρτα, το φανάρι μες στον κουβά
κατεβασμένο στο κλειστό πηγάδι, φέγγοντας μόλις
τις νοτισμένες μαύρες πέτρες κύκλο τον κύκλο,
ώς να χτυπήσουν συνθηματικά στο σιδερένιο σκέπασμα
εφτά φορές, και πάλι εφτά φορές· ― ποιός να χτυπήσει;
αφού οι δικοί μας βρίσκονται μες στο πηγάδι, ακούγοντας
τα βήματα, πάνω, απ’ τα πεταλωμένα παιδιά τους
και τις καμπάνες φορτωμένες στις μοτοσυκλέτες;

The poem obviously has a nightmare quality, I expect the last line to be strange.  But the poem also seems to imply a kind of commentary about the world, and I would expect its last line to provide some closure and maybe a sharp point -- it feels like the kind of poem that has a sting in its tail.  So "and the [church-]bells loaded on the motorcycles" seems _strange in the wrong way_, if you see what I mean -- just off at a tangent.  In a poem by John Ashbery, maybe, or Alfred Jarry -- but here at the end of the very serious-sounding opening poem in a book by Ritsos?  That's why I still feel as though I'm missing something.


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## OssianX

cougr said:


> Re: "και τις καμπάνες φορτωμένες στις μοτοσυκλέτες".
> 
> "Καμπάνα" is also used to refer to a clutch bell. So one possible literal rendition of the line could be "and the clutch bells mounted on the motorcycles" or something to that effect. They can be quite noisy at times.
> 
> Edit: I know, given that we are talking about a poem it is highly unlikely that the above would be the most apt translation but it's only suggested as a remote possibility.



Well, I don't know!  Now that I've done a little more research -- not on language but on clutches! -- I'm beginning to think this may be the best suggestion yet.  Thank you, cougr!  It would certainly never have occurred to me.

The thing that still bothers me is that I'm not sure how φορτωμένες fits.  Is that word used (with σε) for things that are attached to a vehicle as parts, like the English "fitted with"??  Τα κουτιά φορτωμένα στο φορτηγό seems clear, but would anyone say Τα φρένα φορτωμένα στο φορτηγό?

And just to round off the questions: Do you, or does anyone, happen know whether the shorthand καμπάνα for καμπάνα συμπλέκτη would have been current in the 1930s through 1960s, when -- I suppose! -- Ritsos might have been familiar with the inner workings of motorcycles?


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## an-alfabeto

Hi OssianX. Here you can see the meanings of "καμπάνα". 
It seems to me clear that in your context "καμπάνες" are church bells. 
I' m not quite sure if I understand what's a "clutch bell", but in the greek definition of the word there's nothing dealing with mechanics. 
"Φορτώνω" means "load". You can say "φορτώνω το αυτοκίνητο ή τη μηχανή με πράγματα". 
As for the motorcycles, I' ve got some thoughts but nothing confirmed. I'd need to know which is the historical context of the poem. 
Anyway, I would suggest "bells".

Shawnee, the caw-bell is called "κουδούνα" .


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## OssianX

an-alfabeto said:


> I' m not quite sure if I understand what's a "clutch bell", but in the greek definition of the word there's nothing dealing with mechanics.
> . . .
> As for the motorcycles, I' ve got some thoughts but nothing confirmed. I'd need to know which is the historical context of the poem.



Thanks very much for the link to the official definition.

It is true, though, that a Google search for "καμπάνα συμπλέκτη" gets 9,000+ hits, all for sites that sell parts or (even more) for discussion lists like this one, except that they're interested in repairing vehicles rather than in language.  And the part (which as far as I can tell is a housing that contains the other parts of the clutch--but I could be wrong) often seems to be called just a καμπάνα without the qualifier συμπλέκτη.

I'd be delighted to hear anything else you can offer about the motorcycles.  All I can realy say about the poem's historical context is that it was written at the end of 1971 (while Ritsos was under house arrest on Samos); it's the first poem in this little book ΠΑΡΟΔΟΣ, around the middle of his career.


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## cougr

OssianX said:


> And just to round off the questions: Do you, or does anyone, happen know whether the shorthand καμπάνα for καμπάνα συμπλέκτη would have been current in the 1930s through 1960s, when -- I suppose! -- Ritsos might have been familiar with the inner workings of motorcycles?



Yes, the word was used back then and is still current but on further reflection it is obvious that Ritsos definitely didn't have "clutch bells" in mind when writing the poem otherwise he would've used the tr. verb "τοποθετημένες"(ie fitted/mounted) rather than  "φορτωμένες". 

I think that the best translation for the line is the most obvious one ie: 

....and the bells (which were) loaded on the motorcycles.

As to what type of bells they were and as to the allegorical significance (if any) of the line, perhaps it could be left to the reader to decide for themselves.


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## shawnee

From an alfabeto: "Shawnee, the caw-bell is called "κουδούνα" ."
I know, I though of it later. But then a gain I was painting a surrealist image so it didn't matter (to me at the time that is) that it was the right bell. In fact I subconsciously opted fro the wrong one given the dream like context. I know nothing of Ritsos's religiosity but the handle bars of that motorcycle are looming as a significant symbol (Cf Picasso's well known  bicycle seat and handle bars assemblage). But that's all a matter of interpretation of course.


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## OssianX

cougr said:


> Yes, the word was used back then and is still current but on further reflection it is obvious that Ritsos definitely didn't have "clutch bells" in mind when writing the poem otherwise he would've used the tr. verb "τοποθετημένες"(ie fitted/mounted) rather than  "φορτωμένες".
> 
> I think that the best translation for the line is the most obvious one ie:
> 
> ....and the bells (which were) loaded on the motorcycles.



I guess you're right, that settles it.  Such a pretty theory!  Too bad!

Many thanks, cougr.


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## Cynastros

My mind goes elsewhere, I remember the German machines (Motorcycle)  , those that were on the right side of a cart. was a machine with three wheels.


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## Eltheza

Thank you for posting the entire poem, OssianX! Yiannis Ritsos is a favourite poet and I used to take people on trips to Monemvasia, his birthplace, where those interested could come with me to his house and the small cemetery where he's buried.

Something occurs to me about the (church) bells: could there be an element here of the past dying? The horses are dead and other things of the past seem to have been abandoned. Could the bells on the motorbikes be their horns, as blasted enthusiastically by young Greek men after football matches and at the "Ανάσταση"? In a way, for traditional celebrations, whereas in old times the church bells would have rung out, now the motorbike horns are "the call to the faithful" (to whatever they're being 'faithful' to !)

This must have been already happening in 1971, when the poem was written. Sorry, just a thought!

Are you translating many of Ritsos's poems? I have tried to translate some W.B. Yeats and Wilfred Owen into Greek - with fairly disastrous results!


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## an-alfabeto

Hey, OssianX. I’ m sorry for answering late, but all these days I’ve been a little bit busy. As you may remember, in _Ρωμιοσύνη_, written in 1945-1947, during the Greek Civil War, Ritsos, more optimistic, was waiting for the bells to ring, announcing a better world, with more justice for everyone. (The poem became very popular after it was set to music by Mikis Theodorakis, though in many cases it has been abused.)

_Σώπα, όπου νάναι θα σημάνουν οι καμπάνες. / Αυτό το χώμα είναι δικό τους και δικό μας. / Κάτου απ' το χώμα, μες στα σταυρωμένα χέρια τους / κρατάνε της καμπάνας το σκοινί - προσμένουνε την ώρα, δεν κοιμούνται, / προσμένουν να σημάνουν την ανάσταση. Τούτο το χώμα / είναι δικό τους και δικό μας - δε μπορεί κανείς να μας το πάρει._

The church bells of the resurrection have a strong political symbolism. 
Although during 1970-1980, which is the period of the collection you are translating, Ritsos did write some revolutionary and hopeful poems, we could say that this is his most pessimist period. Now, there are no bells, because they are "φορτωμένες στις μοτοσικλέτες".

I asked you for the historical context, because my first thought was that the word was referring to the German motorcycles during the Occupation. But now I realize that the historical context is rather the military junta of 1967-1974. Just one more thought (quite risky, I’m afraid): You may have noticed that any discussion about politics in Greece, ends up to the old dispute between left-wing and right-wing and the collaboration of the last ones (generically called "δεξιοί") with the German troops: the German motorcycles have now passed to their successors, the most extreme branch of the right-wing, which in this case is the military junta. 
But I’d better stop here, because this discussion could generate a lot of controversy, which is not my intention. 
Καλή συνέχεια!


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## OssianX

That is extremely helpful and informative.  I'll see whether I can work it in, somehow.  Thank you, an-alfabeto.


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## kalpan

"Καμπανα"  it  was  the  thraousers  of  70's  fashion  ,the  poet  means that some persons  with  "καμπανα  παντελονι  ανεβηκαν  στις μηχανες τους"


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