# Sincerely and faithfully in formal letters



## dihydrogen monoxide

If you are writing a formal letter and if you start by Dear Sir or Madam, why can't you finish the letter with Yours sincerely, but when you start with Dear X, you can use sincerely and faithfully?


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## liliput

According to what I've read, you should use "Yours faithfully" if you start the letter "Dear Sir or Madam" (i.e. you don't know the person´s name) and "Yours sincerely" when you address the person by name.

I don't think the rule is very well-known or strictly followed. I only came across it fairly recently and have always finished formal letters with "yours sincerely", regardless of whether I've used a name or not.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

That is the rule I was taught. However, I am more interested why is it like that. There are differences in sincerely and faithfully, but when finishing the letter, the difference doesn't really matter.


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## liliput

It's just a matter of tradition. You might as well ask why we call a table a table. Alternatively you could perhaps try asking in the etymology forum, someone might know how the custom developed.


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## dihydrogen monoxide

Is this tradition recent or very old?


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## liliput

I would think it's a fairly old tradition. Apparently the use of "faithfully" is chiefly British. Personally I don't think I've ever used it.


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## out2lnch

I've never used 'faithfully' either. I would most often simply use 'sincerely' for a buisiness-type letter, and maybe 'yours truly' for a personal letter, but this has a formality that I find a bit odd between friends.

I like the traditional 'your most obedient and humble servant', or 'your humble servant', but of course would never use it to conclude a letter. I just like the ring of it...


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## Loob

Old traditionalist that I am, I still make the distinction liliput described.


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## emma42

So do I.  I was under the impression that it was a rule that Sir/Madam is followed by Yours Faithfully, and use of name is followed by Yours Sincerely.  I was taught to remember the distinction by saying to myself "You are more sincere if you know the name".

I would not dream of ending a letter beginning Dear Sir/Madam with anything other than Yours Faithfully, for fear that the recipient would think me uneducated and therefore not offer me the job or whatever else I am asking for!  However, times change, and it's now possible the recipient will not know this rule/tradition.


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## Topsie

I add my "me too" to Loob's and emma's! This is also what I teach my (French) trainees when we look at formal correspondence. For a company addressing a client, for example, the "faithfully" conveys the idea that they are at your service and attentive to your needs.  
Most people use email now, so "best regards", "kind regards" or even "rgds" are more the norm!


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## emma42

Yes, indeed.  

Our American friends do have different ideas (how dare they?).  An American acquaintance of mine asked me to email a draft formal missive for him to send to an organisation.  I began it "Dear Sirs".  He, an educated man, well used to formal correspondence, changed it to "Dear Ladies and Gentlemen".  I was amazed.  I can't recall how he ended it.


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## Matching Mole

"Yours faithfully" is a shortened form of "I am/remain your faithful (also 'obedient') servant" and similar expressions, which show humble politeness (the writer is not literally a servant, of course); the form indicates a high degree of formality or distance, so it matches Dear Sir, where the name is absent or omitted removing the possibility of being familiar.

Conversely, "Dear <name>" indicates a certain level of familiarity, so it needs a correspondingly more familiar, but polite, close to match it, which is where sincerely comes in. 

The faithfully/sincerely rule explained above is, in my experience, quite strictly adhered to in British business correspondence.


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## WAMORZINHO

Because faithfully it's a formal way to say goodbye in the letters, so if you starts with sir or madam you need to finish formal too.
but when you start with dear.. you can finish with another words.
If it's very unformal you can use kisses or XOXO, kisses and hugges

If I made any mistake please correct me. I'm not a native speaker


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## Topsie

emma42 said:


> ...I can't recall how he ended it.


Perhaps that's just as well!


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## emma42

WAMORZINHO said:


> Because "faithfully" is a formal way to say goodbye in letters, if you start with Sir or Madam you need to finish formally too.
> But when you start with Dear.. you can finish with other words.
> If it's very informal you can use kisses or XOXO, kisses and hugs
> 
> If I made any mistakes please correct me. I'm not a native speaker



You can start with Dear, whether you're using a name or Sir/Madam:

Dear Mrs Smith
Dear Sir


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## panjandrum

For me this has always been entirely mechanical.
Dear Sir .... Yours faithfully;
Dear <name> ... Yours sincerely.
The choice of endings has no significance whatever, but I wouldn't ever use them the other way round.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

It is one of the traditional distinctions between business and social correspondence. 

"Sincerely yours" and "Sincerely" were considered proper closings for social letters. They were not, however, the traditional closings for business letters.

The traditional closing for business letters in the US is "yours truly" or "very truly yours". While "faithfully" is not used in the US, I believe it is the British equivalent.

Modern business people seem not to know how to write letters, which is why you see confusion. It is generally bad manners to address a business letter to a stranger in which you call that stranger by his or her first name (as in "Dear Tom" instead of "Dear Mr. Johnson" or "Dear Sir".) To close a business letter to a complete stranger with "Cordially" (which I have seen far more than once) is completely ridiculous.


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## liliput

I remember being told many years ago that "yours faithfully" was for informal letters and "yours sincerely" was for formal. That's nonsense of course, I wouldn't dream of ending an informal letter with anything as formal as "yours faithfully".

Emma42 mentioned the possibility of missing out on job opportunities as a result of incorrect usage of "yours sincerely" in a letter beginning "Dear Sir". In this age of information, I think the fact that you hadn't bothered to find out the name of the person you were applying to would be more detrimental. Generally, the only time I write "Dear Sir or Madam" is in letters of complaint. In this case, it doesn't matter much to me what the recipient thinks of my writing style. Even so, I would probably make some effort to find a name to address my letter to.

As someone who recieves large numbers of job applications (mostly via email) I would usually expect "yours sincerely" or "best regards". I would consider "yours faithfully" an unusual but suitably formal variation. I'm much more concerned with the central content of the letter and CV.


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## emma42

_


liliput said:



			I

Emma42 mentioned the possibility of missing out on job opportunities as a result of incorrect usage of "yours sincerely" in a letter beginning "Dear Sir". In this age of information, I think the fact that you hadn't bothered to find out the name of the person you were applying to would be more detrimental. 
		
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_


liliput said:


> This was a random example to illustrate why I would be careful with the language used to end letters, which I would have thought was obvious.  The example could just as well have been "ending a letter beginning Dear Mr Jones" with "Yours faithfully".
Click to expand...


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## Kevin Beach

emma42 said:


> So do I. I was under the impression that it was a rule that Sir/Madam is followed by Yours Faithfully, and use of name is followed by Yours Sincerely. I was taught to remember the distinction by saying to myself "You are more sincere if you know the name".
> 
> I would not dream of ending a letter beginning Dear Sir/Madam with anything other than Yours Faithfully, for fear that the recipient would think me uneducated and therefore not offer me the job or whatever else I am asking for! However, times change, and it's now possible the recipient will not know this rule/tradition.


That is exactly right, as I was taught.

I was once told that "Sincerely" came from Latin meaning "without wax" or "without seal" and meant that one would merely sign a letter without sealing it. I thought that the Latin words were "Sine cerum", but I can't find "cerum" in the Latin dictionaries, so maybe I misheard it.


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## berndf

Latin for _wax_ is _cer*a*_ hence it is _sine cer*am*_ (accusative).


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## Kevin Beach

berndf said:


> Latin for _wax_ is _cer*a*_ hence it is _sine cer*am*_ (accusative).


 Thanks berndf!


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## emma42

Good point, Kevin.  The Latin for wax, wax seal etc is *cera* (nominative case).


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## WAMORZINHO

emma42 said:


> You can start with Dear, whether you're using a name or Sir/Madam:
> 
> Dear Mrs Smith
> Dear Sir


Tanks Emma


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## liliput

emma42 said:


> _
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> liliput said:
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> I
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> Click to expand...
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> _
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> liliput said:
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> 
> _Emma42 mentioned the possibility of missing out on job opportunities as a result of incorrect usage of "yours sincerely" in a letter beginning "Dear Sir". In this age of information, I think the fact that you hadn't bothered to find out the name of the person you were applying to would be more detrimental. _
> 
> 
> 
> This was a random example to illustrate why I would be careful with the language used to end letters, which I would have thought was obvious. The example could just as well have been "ending a letter beginning Dear Mr Jones" with "Yours faithfully".
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> 
> Yes, it was perfectly obvious, although I would think it a rather well-chosen example rather than a random one. Please don't be offended, that was not my intention. My point was that, for either of these examples, there are factors that I would consider far more serious than whether _faithfully_ or _sincerely_ was used. Without a doubt there are those who would consider it a serious error. Personally, I don't.
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> Click to expand...
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## out2lnch

I can honestly admit that I had no idea that there was any sort of convention for this sort of thing. To my (clearly ignorant) mind, 'yours truly' or 'yours faithfully' (which I can't say I've ever seen) suggest to me a personal relationship with the recipient. I would have thought that 'sincerely' was more appropriate in a business context.

I find it interesting that there are many here that believe this to be a big deal. Granted, I don't deal with this sort of thing often at all, but when I do, I can't see being put off by the use of 'sincerely' instead of 'yours faithfully/truly'. I wonder how much of it is people viewing the writer as ignorant or uneducated and how much is that the 'rule' was arbitrarily formulated in some bygone era and taught to be the only acceptable way. Because some authority devised it, it must be gospel and anyone not adhering is a rube. To me, this sounds a lot like the preposition-ending-a-sentence windmill.


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## Kevin Beach

out2lnch said:


> I can honestly admit that I had no idea that there was any sort of convention for this sort of thing. To my (clearly ignorant) mind, 'yours truly' or 'yours faithfully' (which I can't say I've ever seen) suggest to me a personal relationship with the recipient. I would have thought that 'sincerely' was more appropriate in a business context.
> 
> I find it interesting that there are many here that believe this to be a big deal. Granted, I don't deal with this sort of thing often at all, but when I do, I can't see being put off by the use of 'sincerely' instead of 'yours faithfully/truly'. I wonder how much of it is people viewing the writer as ignorant or uneducated and how much is that the 'rule' was arbitrarily formulated in some bygone era and taught to be the only acceptable way. Because some authority devised it, it must be gospel and anyone not adhering is a rube. To me, this sounds a lot like the preposition-ending-a-sentence windmill.


It's a social convention. Conventions tend to come and go. They are useful as shorthand ways of behaviour, eliminating the need to stop and think what somebody means every time they do or say anything.

But just because some of us don't see the need for something, doesn't mean that there is no need for it!


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## gasman

> To me, this sounds a lot like the preposition-ending-a-sentence windmill.



But isn't that how all the rules developed? If nothing else, the fact that "proper" usage is  used, demonstrates that the writer has some concept of business practice.


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## MissTinker

dihydrogen monoxide said:


> If you are writing a formal letter and if you start by Dear Sir or Madam, why can't you finish the letter with Yours sincerely, but when you start with Dear X, you can use sincerely and faithfully?


 

i just say 


Regards


as most of my letters are not letters, they are emails and my signature has my name and logo and job title.


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## out2lnch

Kevin Beach said:


> It's a social convention. Conventions tend to come and go. They are useful as shorthand ways of behaviour, eliminating the need to stop and think what somebody means every time they do or say anything.
> 
> But just because some of us don't see the need for something, doesn't mean that there is no need for it!


 
Touché, I suppose. My point was more that people get so caught up in these social conventions that when (in this case) the closing differs from the convention, they are more likely to start questioning 'behaviour' and/or motives than if they were a little more laid-back about such things. It seems to me that if you always expect to see something at the bottom of a letter and then don't, you may start judging the writer over something that 'some' would consider silly, rather than paying attention to what the person had to say in the body. 

I can't argue that this is a social convention, it is what it is as they say. My ignorance does not change this. In spite of the above, I'll try to keep this straight for future letter writing in case I'm not taken seriously because I said 'sincerely' instead of 'yours truly'.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

out2lnch said:


> I can honestly admit that I had no idea that there was any sort of convention for this sort of thing.


 
In business corresondence there is a convention for everything.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

MissTinker said:


> I just say
> 
> 
> Regards


 
You should be aware that there are stuffy, unimaginative, old-fashioned poops (and I am one) who consider "regards" and "best regards" at the end of business correspondence to be inappropriate, unprofessional, and silly (and we feel the same way about the word "I" written with a lower-case letter...) If you do not mind being considered unprofessional by us stuffy folk, by all means go ahead and use it -- but be aware at the same time that you will be creating a certain impression in the minds of people with whom, regardless of whether they are stuffy old cranks or not, you must conduct business.


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## nitrochic

Hi,

I have been on the adult literacy program at my local library and in a recent assessment I had to write a letter to a prospective employer.  I knew the name so I assumed that it should be signed off with 'yours sincerely.'

After it was marked I was told that as I didn't know the recipient I should have signed it off with 'yours faithfully,' but could not be shown a reference on it.

As it seemed to be the tutor's opinion I stated that I'm not sure if I agree, hence I was surfing the net this morning and came across this site.  If I do clarify this I'll let you know.


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## nitrochic

How silly of me! If anyone can clarify this with me I would very much appreciate it. I have read further posts on this and I see that there are some very well read people here and I would appreciate any help from you.

Thanks


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## panjandrum

Your tutor appears to be mistaken.
Dear Sir - Yours faithfully
Dear Mr Smith - Yours sincerely.
There is plenty of evidence to support your point of view here and in various reference sources.

(Welcome to WordReference, by the way )


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## Kevin Beach

nitrochic said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have been on the adult literacy program at my local library and in a recent assessment I had to write a letter to a prospective employer.  I knew the name so I assumed that it should be signed off with 'yours sincerely.'
> 
> After it was marked I was told that as I didn't know the recipient I should have signed it off with 'yours faithfully,' but could not be shown a reference on it.
> 
> As it seemed to be the tutor's opinion I stated that I'm not sure if I agree, hence I was surfing the net this morning and came across this site.  If I do clarify this I'll let you know.


Perhaps you should give your tutor the link to this thread .........


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## Wilma_Sweden

Apart from Dear Sir/Madam, I was also taught to address a company as Dear Sirs, (UK) or Gentlemen: (US), particularly if you don't have a specific contact person to write to.

There has been a plethora of literature about the how-tos of letter writing from the 19th century onwards, so it's plain to see that there have been lots of conventions surrounding the art of writing letters and it's obviously very serious business!  Googling "letter writing templates" today turns up 13,900 hits...

/Wilma


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## Kirill V.

I very much appologize for my ignorance, but why is _Dear Ladies and Gentlemen _any worse than _Dear Sirs_?
I do want to be able to write literate business letters in English!

Sorry - this refers to post #11


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## JustKate

kayve said:


> I very much appologize for my ignorance, but why is _Dear Ladies and Gentlemen _any worse than _Dear Sirs_?
> I do want to be able to write literate business letters in English!
> 
> Sorry - this refers to post #11


I've *never* heard of starting a letter "Dear Ladies and Gentlemen." The way I always start a letter if I don't know the name or sex of the person I'm addressing is "Dear Sir or Ma'am" or "Dear Sir or Madam." Some people still use "Dear Sir" as a generic form of address, but I don't recommend it. I don't think I'm particularly touchy, but when I receive a letter from someone who doesn't know me, I don't care to be called "sir." Why assume that someone is male when there's the perfectly polite and correct "Dear Sir or Ma'am" available?

There are other threads on this topic - I'll try to find them for you later today.


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## Kirill V.

Thank you! I see, this is when you are writing to someone you don't know.

But what if, for example, a Board of Directors Chairman is writing to the Board members, who he does know and of whom he knows there are both men and women, wouldn't "Dear Ladies and Gentlemen" be an appripriate way start such a letter then?


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## JustKate

kayve said:


> Thank you! I see, this is when you are writing to someone you don't know.
> 
> But what if, for example, a Board of Directors Chairman is writing to the Board members, who he does know and of whom he knows there are both men and women, wouldn't "Dear Ladies and Gentlemen" be an appripriate way start such a letter then?



You could, but it might get a bit tricky. I mean, if there are multiples of each sex (e.g., five men and two women or three men and four women), then "Ladies and gentlemen" might work. (I wouldn't use "Dear" in this case, but I have no idea why, and maybe that's a personal quirk.) But what if you had only one man or only one woman - the mix of singular and plural in "Lady and gentlemen" or "Ladies and gentleman" sounds so odd. 

Because of that, I'd avoid this form of address and just say "Dear fellow members of the board" or something like that. I'd use "Ladies and gentlemen" only if I were writing to a *large* group that included both sexes. 

As a side issue, "ladies and gentlemen" is for me primarily a social, as opposed to businesslike, way to address people, so I am not likely to use it in business situations. But if I did so, it would only be for a large, mixed group.


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## Kirill V.

Thank you very much for your explanations; this is certainly very useful for a non-native guy like me.

I understand "ladies" and "gentlemen" sound somewhat inappropriate for business situations. Possibly, if I got it right, might work when addressing members of a country club in a club anniversary address, but not when writing to company board members 
I never realized this, thanks again.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

Hi, I looked up this thread because of a "faithfully/sincerely" question posted today. There were only a few references to "Yours truly", which I think works well with both "Dear Mr./Ms. Name" and "Dear Sir or Madam". (Note the period after "Mr." and "Ms." - avoid "Mrs." nowadays - in US usage.) At any rate,you'd often read the name and 'title' of the person to whom applicants should write in the ad.


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## GreenWhiteBlue

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> Note the period after "Mr." and "Ms." - avoid "Mrs." nowadays - in US usage.



You need not avoid "Mrs." if you are speaking of a woman who is married and who has replaced her maiden name with that of her husband, and you certainly do not avoid it (and indeed, need to use it) if it is clearly the preference of the woman herself.  You might note, for example, how the New York Times refers to the former Hillary Rodham as "Mrs. Clinton", and to the former Michelle Robinson as "Mrs. Obama".  It would also be absurd to refer to the philanthropic widow of Thomas Knight Jr. as "Ms. Thomas Knight Jr.", when the lady herself always makes her gifts under the names of "Mrs. Thomas Knight Jr."


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

GWB, While I agree with your observations, in a job application we don't know how the woman we're writing to prefers to be called if only the first and last names are given (which is usually, if not almost always, the case, at least in the States - wouldn't you, a fellow Yank, agree?), I'd say it's best to stick to "Ms."


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## GreenWhiteBlue

ain'ttranslationfun? said:


> GWB, While I agree with your observations, in a job application we don't know how the woman we're writing to prefers to be called if only the first and last names are given (which is usually, if not almost always, the case, at least in the States - wouldn't you, a fellow Yank, agree?), I'd say it's best to stick to "Ms."


Except the thread is about writing a formal letter, rather than about submitting a job application, and I understood your statement to be unqualified advice that one should "avoid 'Mrs.' nowadays".  I would therefore repeat that you do not need to "avoid Mrs. nowadays" in all circumstances, and that in some cases you definitely should use it.


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## ain'ttranslationfun?

As I said above, GWB, I agree with your observation "...if it is clearly the preference of the the woman herself." (Anyway, the OP wanted to know about "Sincerely or faithfully in formal letters", so I guess we've all strayed a bit.)


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