# BCS - nouns in -h



## Tassos

I am currently doing a bit of studying on noun declensions and I've come up to the *-k, -g, -h rule* (k,g,h becomes c,z,s for Nom-Dat-Instr-Loc Plural and č,ž,š + e for Voc Singular). 

I've been wondering if there are any nouns in -h to apply the rule to... I know _dah_ and _strah_ but they don't follow it. In fact the only noun that I know which follows that rule is predah (a bit strange as it comes from dah anyway). As it is, its declension must be as follows:

Nom. Sing. predah
Acc. Sing. predah
Gen. Sing. predaha
Dat/Loc. Sing. predahu
Instr. Sing. predahom
Voc. Sing. preda*š*e

Counting predaha

Nom. Pl. predasi
Acc. Pl. predahe
Gen. Pl. predaha
Dat/Loc/Instr. Pl. predasima

Are there any other commonly used nouns with that declension?


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## VelikiMag

For example _orah _and _monah_. Monosyllabic words don't follow the rule because they have suffix -ovi. Word _duh_ has vocative _duše_, and sometimes in poetry you can find plural _dusi/dusima_ instead of _duhovi/duhovima_.


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## Anicetus

First of all, just to make it clear, these mutations are caused by front vowels after velars, not by putting nouns in a certain case. They occur all over the language even if we don't look at them from a historical standpoint; for example, in dative/locative singular of many a-nouns with a stem ending in _k_, _g_ or _h_ (_ruka ~ ruci_), in verb inflection (_peći > *pek + ti_ ~ 1st person sg. present _pečem_ ~ 3rd person pl. present _peku_ ~ 2nd person singular imperative _peci_), in word formation (_ručica_ -- a diminutive of _ruka_). However, they appear quite irregular if we try to describe them solely from the viewpoint of the contemporary language (what about _snaga ~ snažan_?). Velars changing to č, ž, š is usually known as palatalisation, while changing to c, z, s is usually called sibilarisation in the local literature. In Slavistics, where they are viewed as historical sound changes, their names are Slavic first and second palatalisation, respectively. But I've probably got too far now. 

Other derivatives of _dah_ will exhibit these sound changes too, for instance: _uzdah, zadah, udah, izdah_... They're regularly applied to foreign words ending in -h as well: _poliptih, eunuh, monarh, almanah, Čeh_...


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## el_tigre

That is called assibilation (English) or sibiliarizacija (Croatian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assibilation
http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibilarizacija


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## VelikiMag

A quotation from the link:


> Sibilarizacija se ne provodi u sljedećim primjerima:
> 
> 
> 
> kod množinskih toponima
> _        Če*h*i, Nova*k*i_ (Če*s*i, Nova*c*i)



I don't know about Croatian, but in Serbian this is not true. _Čehi, Slovaki, Poljaki, etc. _sounds illiterate.


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## DenisBiH

VelikiMag said:


> A quotation from the link:
> 
> 
> I don't know about Croatian, but in Serbian this is not true. _Čehi, Slovaki, Poljaki, etc. _sounds illiterate.



I would agree for ethnonyms, but the text speaks of plural form toponyms. I for one didn't know there was any sort of special rule for those. However, if, say, a village was named after a common family name in that village (not uncommon in B-H at least as far as I know), would those forms still sound as illiterate? If you had a village where most people had the surname Novak, and you wanted to name that village, what would it be: Novaci, Novakovi, Novaki? The same for a village where most people had the surname Čeh - what would you name it?

On the other hand, most of those Novaki toponyms above seem to be located in the Kajkavian area, although I did find at least one in (north-)eastern Slavonia and one in Istria.


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## VelikiMag

DenisBiH said:


> However, if, say, a village was named after a common family name in that village (not uncommon in B-H at least as far as I know), would those forms still sound as illiterate? If you had a village where most people had the surname Novak, and you wanted to name that village, what would it be: Novaci, Novakovi, Novaki?


I would definitely say _Novaci_. Even _Novakovi_ sounds better to me than _Novaki_. And as you have added later, all the places from the list are in Croatia. So for them it probably isn't that unusual.


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## VelikiMag

Now when you mentioned Kajkavian, I'm wondering does the change k->c exist in Slovenian? I know for example that it doesn't exist in Russian but it does in Ukrainian.


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## Sobakus

VelikiMag said:


> Now when you mentioned Kajkavian, I'm wondering does the change k->c exist in Slovenian? I know for example that it doesn't exist in Russian but it does in Ukrainian.



The reason it doesn't exist in Russian is that uniquely among Slavic tongues the language of Novgorod lacked second slavic palatalisation: _kena_ and _ruki_ instead of _cena_ and_ ruci_. This is restricted only to noun declension though.


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## DenisBiH

VelikiMag said:


> I would definitely say _Novaci_. Even _Novakovi_ sounds better to me than _Novaki_. And as you have added later, all the places from the list are in Croatia. So for them it probably isn't that unusual.



Ok, I must admit that our language "feeling" on this matter is more or less the same. However, here is an example from Montenegro where the name of the village has the "wrong" form grammatically (yes, I know, not the same thing linguistically as _Česi _vs _Čehi_, but still an interesting example  ).



VelikiMag said:


> Now when you mentioned Kajkavian, I'm wondering does the change k->c exist in Slovenian?



Apparently not, at least not in these words: Čehi, Slovaki, Poljaki, Bošnjaki.



Sobakus said:


> The reason it doesn't exist in Russian is that  uniquely among Slavic tongues the language of Novgorod lacked second  slavic palatalisation: _kena_ and _ruki_ instead of _cena_ and_ ruci_. This is restricted only to noun declension though.



Interesting. So _kena _hasn't been preserved, then?


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## Tassos

@Denis
What are you saying is that for example Czechs and Slovaks remains *Česi* and *Slovaci* for all the standards?

@VelikiMag
Thanks for clearing up the situation about duh (in wiktionary both types duhovi and duši are given and I thought they were equally used). 
By the way what is the difference between _duh_ and _duša_ (besides the fact that duh also means ghost)?

To summarize I would say that the *true* BCS words who follow the -h rule are orah, propuh, vazduh (I guess) and the dah derivatives...


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## DenisBiH

Tassos said:


> @Denis
> What are you saying is that for example Czechs and Slovaks remains *Česi* and *Slovaci* for all the standards?



Yes, I'm pretty sure it does.



Tassos said:


> @VelikiMag
> Thanks for clearing up the situation about duh (in wiktionary both types  duhovi and duši  dusi  are given and I thought they were equally used).
> By the way what is the difference between _duh_ and _duša_ (besides the fact that duh also means ghost)?



Well, _duh _is "spirit; ghost". Also spirit in the sense "spirit of the people" (_duh naroda_), "fighting spirit" (_borbeni duh_) etc. On the other hand _duša _is "soul" (it also has some other less common meanings). Not exactly the same thing; for example I could imagine someone saying:


> _Njegova duša je napustila ovaj svijet, ali njegov plemeniti duh će vječno među nama ostati i živjeti dalje kroz (sjećanje na) njegova djela._



Generally _duša _seems to be more intimately tied to a specific person i.e. closer to the religious meaning of "soul", while _duh _seems to be a more general description of the totality of someone's thoughts, feelings, actions, character etc. On the other hand, HJP gives exactly that same definition for duša (see 2.), and I could think of more general uses of _duša_, so someone correct me if I am wrong here. 

Here's an actual example from Google. It wouldn't be possible to substitute _duša _for _duh _in that sentence..


> Moj  nastavnik koji mi je usadio prva perca na mojim krilima.ne mogu da  vjerujem da ga nema ali ce njegov plemeniti duh uvjek biti u nasim  srcima i nasim sjecanjima.slava mu.




Some other examples - for someone who is intensely suffering emotionally/psychologically, you could say _Boli ga duša_, but not _Boli ga duh_. But to express that someone if a "fighter" i.e. doesn't easily give up in life, you could say _On ima borbeni duh_ / _On je borbenog duha_ but not _On ima borbenu dušu_. 

Isn't it much the same in English with spirit vs. soul?


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## Sobakus

DenisBiH said:


> Interesting. So _kena _hasn't been preserved, then?



Ruki weren't )) exactly preserved, they were borrowed, or, rather, the declensional paradigm of such words was made regular under the Novgorod dialect's influence.


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## Anicetus

DenisBiH said:


> I would agree for ethnonyms, but the text speaks of plural form toponyms. I for one didn't know there was any sort of special rule for those. However, if, say, a village was named after a common family name in that village (not uncommon in B-H at least as far as I know), would those forms still sound as illiterate? If you had a village where most people had the surname Novak, and you wanted to name that village, what would it be: Novaci, Novakovi, Novaki? The same for a village where most people had the surname Čeh - what would you name it?



I would say _Novaci_ and _Česi_ too. The Wikipedia article is a bit confusing, especially as evidently not everybody knows what a toponym is. I think the whole point of the _Novaki_ and _Čehi_ examples is that there are dialects which don't conduct sibilarisation and toponyms from such dialects are retained as such.



> On the other hand, most of those Novaki toponyms above seem to be located in the Kajkavian area, although I did find at least one in (north-)eastern Slavonia and one in Istria.



I believe Čakavian has no sibilarisation in noun declension either, or at least some dialects don't, hence the Istrian toponym. I know there's a popular pop song in a Čakavian dialect from several years ago, titled _Moji koraki_.




VelikiMag said:


> Now when you mentioned Kajkavian, I'm wondering does the change k->c exist in Slovenian? I know for example that it doesn't exist in Russian but it does in Ukrainian.



Second Slavic palatalisation did occur, so it's _*c*ena_, _*c*vet_, _vite*z*_, _*z*vezda_ and so on. The change is no longer functional in noun declension, as it has already been shown, but it is in verb conjugation (in imperative: _peci_, _lezi_).




Tassos said:


> To summarize I would say that the *true* BCS words who follow the -h rule are orah, propuh, vazduh (I guess) and the dah derivatives...



Not really, there are probably more nouns. _Osmijeh_, for example. It's just that nouns ending in -h are not that numerous (while there are many nouns ending in -k, on the other hand, because -ak is a very common suffix) and most monosyllabic masculine nouns get -ov- before case endings in plural, so there's no change. These changes are caused by _e_ and _i_! _Duh_ or _strah_ are in no way irregular, they just get -ov- in the plural, like most monosyllabic masculine nouns.


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## Tassos

Anicetus said:


> The Wikipedia article is a bit confusing, especially as evidently not everybody knows what a toponym is.



You can definitely say that... (although I obviously know what a toponym is ... )




Anicetus said:


> Not really, there are probably more nouns. _Osmijeh_, for example.



And don't forget _gr(ij)eh_ (which apparently also has two plural forms, but here, at least according to google results and for the ijekavian version _*grijesi*_ wins! )



Anicetus said:


> It's just that nouns ending in -h are not that numerous



my point exactly

@Denis

Thanks for the explanation. I think one other difference is that duša can be used in expressions of affection 
For example:
Volim i ja tebe, dušo moja najmililja, najviše!
Lažeš zlato, lažeš dušo, lažeš vjestice (courtesy of Mr. Bregović of course...)


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## Morana_

> Now  when you mentioned Kajkavian, I'm wondering does the change k->c  exist in Slovenian? I know for example that it doesn't exist in Russian  but it does in Ukrainian.
> 
> Second Slavic palatalisation did occur, so it's _*c*ena_, _*c*vet_, _vite*z*_, _*z*vezda_  and so on. The change is no longer functional in noun declension, as it  has already been shown, but it is in verb conjugation (in imperative: _peci_, _lezi_).



Slavic palatalisation - first (k, g, h -> č, ž, š), second and third (k, g, h -> c, z, s) - is quite common in Slovene, but has actually almost completely disappeared in noun declension. The notable exceptions are:
- _otrok_ (child) with its plural form _otroci_;
- _oko_ (eye), _očesi_ (dual), _očesa/oči_ (plural).


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## DenisBiH

Tassos said:


> (although I obviously know what a toponym is ... )




And I thought it was all Greek to you. 

To save this post from being entirely off-topic, yes, _grijesi _is more common.


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## Anicetus

Tassos said:


> And don't forget _gr(ij)eh_ (which apparently also has two plural forms, but here, at least according to google results and for the ijekavian version _*grijesi*_ wins! )



As some additional info, I think the standard actually accepts the plural without -ov- for all nouns, even though that often sounds very unusual, archaic or poetic.



> I think one other difference is that duša can be used in expressions of affection
> For example:
> Volim i ja tebe, dušo moja najmililja, najviše!
> Lažeš zlato, lažeš dušo, lažeš vjestice (courtesy of Mr. Bregović of course...)



Yes, certainly, that meaning is very common, although it appears only in the vocative case. Also notice that adjectives, if there are any, almost always stand after the noun in this expression. It's _moja dušo_ that would sound odd. 




Morana_ said:


> Slavic palatalisation - first (k, g, h -> č, ž, š), second and third (k, g, h -> c, z, s) - is quite common in Slovene, but has actually almost completely disappeared in noun declension. The notable exceptions are:
> - _otrok_ (child) with its plural form _otroci_;
> - _oko_ (eye), _očesi_ (dual), _očesa/oči_ (plural).



_Uho ~ ušesi ~ ušesa_ too, I presume?


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## Morana_

> _Uho ~ ušesi ~ ušesa_ too, I presume?



Yes, of course.


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## Brainiac

Tassos said:


> And don't forget _gr(ij)eh_ (which apparently also has two plural forms, but here, at least according to google results and for the ijekavian version _*grijesi*_ wins! )



Really? I didn't know.... Maybe because they are more sinful  Joking, of course, ijekavian version of this word provokes church-like awe, it sounds a bit archaic, dramatic.... 



Tassos said:


> I think one other difference is that duša can be used in expressions of affection
> For example:
> Volim i ja tebe, dušo moja najmililja, najviše!
> Lažeš zlato, lažeš dušo, lažeš vjestice (courtesy of Mr. Bregović of course...)



Vještica.... ijekavian again... .... Well, Tassos, your knowledge is pretty good......

Well, you said everything, nothing to add. Great job!


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## Tassos

Brainiac said:


> Really? I didn't know.... Maybe because they are more sinful  Joking, of course, ijekavian version of this word provokes church-like awe, it sounds a bit archaic, dramatic....



I chose to search this version because when I searched for *gresi* I got a lot of confusing results (mixing italian sites)



Brainiac said:


> Vještica.... ijekavian again... ....



Never heard Tifa sing in ekavian 



Brainiac said:


> Well, Tassos, your knowledge is pretty good......



of song lyrics, yes... 

btw (and to stay on topic) there is also *usp(j)eh*...


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## Anicetus

Tassos said:


> I chose to search this version because when I searched for *gresi* I got a lot of confusing results (mixing italian sites)



You can always put "site:rs" (or replace "rs" with the country code of choice) in your search query to avoid situations like this.  But even _"gresi" site:rs_ definitely wins over _"grehovi"_.



> btw (and to stay on topic) there is also *usp(j)eh*...



And _trbuh_.


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## Brainiac

And _pazuh_.


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## Anicetus

_Kožuh_ too.


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## Brainiac

Gde si iskopao tu reč! Haha... ne mogu da mislim sada više... aaaa, evo jedne za laku noć - _tepih_!


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## Brainiac

Duh-duhovi

_*Zli dusi*_ - Dostojevski (Russian: _Бесы_, tr. Besy, Достоевский), English - _Demons_
And yes, _dusi_ are not ghosts (duhovi), but it means demons, evil forces...


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## Tassos

In the Sibilarizacija article there is a rule regarding the exceptions for the Female D/L
The rule reads:

kod riječi s jednosuglasničkim završetkom osnove_
de*k*a - de*k*i, ku*k*a - ku*k*i, kole*g*a - kole*g*i, pje*g*a - pje*g*i, zali*h*a - zali*h*i_

can someone translate *jednosuglasnički *here?


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## Anicetus

*One-consonant*, but all "words with a one-consonant stem ending" are far from being exceptions from assibilation. The article probably lists consonant clusters which don't allow assibilation when they're at the end of a stem, and then adds that there are cases when assibilation is ignored even though the stem ends in a single consonant.


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