# <ñ> /ɲ/



## Ballenero

Hi there,
As you know, the Spanish language has a letter that in most languages does not exist, the letter "ñ".
In the history of languages, "ñ" was a cultural leap of a Romance language that left the others behind by expressing with a single letter a sound that in other languages continues to express itself with two.
The "ñ" sounds the same as "ny" of "canyon" in English; and in French it's like "gn" of "D'artagnan".
So how do you get the sound of "ñ" in your respective languages? 
What letters do you use?

Thanks for answering. Have a nice day.


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## TheCrociato91

Hola.



Ballenero said:


> The "ñ" sounds the same as "ny" of "canyon" in English


Not strictly on topic, but I'll have to disagree with that. Similar but not the same. It'd be like saying that the invented word "ninio" sounds like "niño". Or that the way English native speakers pronounce "gnocchi" is the same as we do in Italian.



Ballenero said:


> So how do you get the sound of "ñ" in your respective languages?
> What letters do you use?


In Italian we also have /ɲ/ as a phoneme and we spell it as "gn(i)", which we don't pronounce as /gn/ like in Spanish. An extra piece of information that I learned from studying Spanish as a foreign language: Italian "gn(i)" and Spanish "ñ" don't sound exactly the same because in Italian, in most positions we tend to pronounce it as a geminate sound.


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## Awwal12

Ballenero said:


> how do you get the sound of "ñ" in your respective languages?


In Russian Spanish "ñ" is traditionally represented as "нь", which is /nʲj/ before vowel letters (where "ñ" normally occurs). Representing it as Russian /nʲ/ ("н" before "и" and iotated vowel letters, "нь" before consonants and in the coda) would be closer, of course.


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## Ballenero

That is interesting, thanks.
It is possible that not all languages use the same sound but I would like to know the closest one.
In English, that "ni" of "onion" is also very close.


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## nimak

In *Macedonian *and *Serbian *Cyrillic alphabets there is a letter *Њ њ *which represents the sound */ɲ/*.

*Н н* (N n) */n/ *= Spanish *N n
Њ њ* (N n merged with a ь sign) */ɲ/* = Spanish  *Ñ ñ*

_Examples in Macedonian:_
*кон* (kon) [*kɔn*] _prep._ = "toward";
*коњ* (koñ) [*kɔɲ*] _n. masc._ = "horse";

The sign *ь* called a "_soft sign_" was used in the old Cyrillic alphabets to indicate softening (palatalization) of the consonant before it (*Нь нь*).

In *Serbian* and *Croatian *Latin alphabets the sound */ɲ/* is represented with *Nj nj*


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## AndrasBP

Hungarian and Catalan are the only European languages where the sound /ɲ/ is represented by the digraph "NY":

nyolc /ɲolts/ - eight
lány /la:ɲ/ - girl

Catalunya - Catalonia
any - year


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## apmoy70

In Greek, the sound [ɲ] is not expressed by a single letter because:


It's the the product of synizesis, e.g:
- Κoine *«ἀρνίον» ărníŏn* --> _little lamb_ (neut. nom. sing.), *«ἀρνία» ărníă* (neut. nom. pl.) --> _little lambs_ > MoGr *«αρνιά»* [arˈɲa] (neut. nom. pl.) with synizesis.
- Latin *pāgāna* (fem. nom. sing. of *pāgānus*) --> _pertaining to the countryside, rural, rustic_ > Byz. Gr *«παγανέα» paganéa* (fem. nom. sing.) --> _prowl_ > MoGr *«παγανιά»* [pa.ɣaˈɲa] (fem. nom. sing.) --> _pursuit, chase, trap, prowl, (regionalism) hunt_, with synizesis.
- Classical Gr *«νέος, -ᾱ, -ον» néŏs* (masc. nom. sing.), *néā* (fem. nom. sing.), *néŏn* (neut. nom. sing.) --> _young, new_ > MoGr regionalism *«νιος, νια, νιο»* [ɲɔs] (masc.), [ɲa] (fem.), [ɲɔ] (neut.) with synizesis.
- Classical Gr *«ὄρνεον» órnĕŏn* (neut. nom. sing.) --> _bird_ > MoGr *«όρνιο»* [ˈɔr.ɲɔ] (neut.) --> _vulture, (figuratively) stupid person_ with synizesis.


Dental palatalization before high front vowels is widely spread in the SW dialects, so [n] (and [l]) > [ɲ] (and [ʎ]) e.g:
- Standard MoGr *«οθόνη»* [ɔˈθɔ.ni] (fem. nom. sing.) --> _screen_ is pronounced [ɔˈθɔ.ɲi] in the SW dialects.
- SMoGr *«κορδόνι»* [kɔrˈðɔ.ni] (neut. nom. sing.) --> _cord, cable_ < It. *cordone*, becomes *«γορδόνι»* [ɣɔrˈðɔ.ɲi] (neut. nom. sing.) in the SW dialects.


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## AndrasBP

Latvian - Ņ 
Czech / Slovak - Ň
Polish - Ń
Portuguese - NH


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## Ballenero

AndrasBP said:


> Hungarian and Catalan are the only European languages where the sound /ɲ/ is represented by the digraph "NY":


Interesting. Thanks.



Awwal12 said:


> In Russian Spanish "ñ" is traditionally represented as "нь",





nimak said:


> In *Macedonian *and *Serbian *Cyrillic alphabets there is a letter *Њ њ *which represents the sound */ɲ/*.


I learnt something about the cyrillic alphabet. Thank you.



apmoy70 said:


> It's the the product of synizesis


Sorry, with the Greek I'm lost.
What do you mean with "synizesis"?



AndrasBP said:


> Latvian - Ņ
> Czech / Slovak - Ň
> Polish - Ń
> Portuguese - NH


In Latvian is funny because the sign is down.
In Czech/Slovak and in Polish is very similar to Ñ.
Thank you very much.


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## kaverison

The sound exists in Tamil. ஞ is a nasal n that sounds like NY. It takes a more nasal sound in Malayalam, a Dravidian cousin of Tamil.

ஞாலம் - Nyaalam = World,
ஞானம் - Nyaanam = knowledge
ஞாயிறு - NyaayiRu = sun

Though colloquially, some flatten it to regular N.

ஞ pronunciation


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## AndrasBP

Apart from Spanish, there's another European language that uses the letter "ñ", although in a different way:

In *Breton* (Celtic language spoken in western France) the letter "ñ" indicates the nasalization of the preceding vowel, e.g. *bremañ*, meaning "now".


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## apmoy70

Ballenero said:


> ...
> Sorry, with the Greek I'm lost.
> What do you mean with "synizesis"?
> ...
> Thank you very much.


*Synizesis* (/ˌsɪnəˈziːsɪs/) is a sound change (metaplasm) in which two originally syllabic vowels are pronounced as a single syllable without change in writing.[1] 
Hence the ancient *«ἀρνία» ăr.ní.ă* (three syllables) becomes in Modern Greek *«αρνιά» ar.ɲá* (two syllables) with synizesis


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## Sardokan1.0

In Italian it's written as GN

Kingdom - regno
Wood -> legno

etc.etc.

In Sardinian instead this sound is very rare, and most of the words where is present are loanwords from Italian. 

While most of the words that in Latin had a GN in Sardinian evolved as a double N.

magnus -> mannu (big)
regnum -> rennu (kingdom)
lignum -> linna (wood)
cognoscere -> connoschere (to know)
signare -> sinnare (to sign)

etc.etc.


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## Red Arrow

In Dutch, nj is always pronounced [ɲ], never [nj]. Also between words: _Spanje _("Spain") sounds the same as _spa*n j*e_ ("do you span?")

The same happens with dj, tj, sj and zj, depending on the speaker.


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## Penyafort

*Aragonese *uses *ny *or *ñ*, depending on what spelling rules you choose to follow: 2 promote ny, 2 promote ñ.


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## Olaszinhok

Sardokan1.0 said:


> In Sardinian instead this sound is very rare, and most of the words where is present are loanwords from Italian.


Romanian also lacks  the palatal consonants /ɲ ʎ/ What about  the  ʎ phoneme in Sardinian?


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## Agró

*Euskera/Basque*
Two options, too:

*ñ* (eñe) _ñ_
*in*: (i ene) _n_ is pronounced as _ñ_ in southern dialects.
Iru*ñ*ea/Iru*in*ea/(also Iru*iñ*ea)


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## Sardokan1.0

Olaszinhok said:


> Romanian also lacks  the palatal consonants /ɲ ʎ/ What about  the  ʎ phoneme in Sardinian?



It's practically nonexistent, it can be found only in few Spanish and Italian loanwords.

Spanish - Sardinian
mantilla -> mantiglia
maravilla -> maraviglia

In Italian loanwords like "maglia, maglietta, fogliu" (I can't remember others)


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## KalAlbè

In Haitian Creole it's *ny.*

E.g. *Zonyon *(from French-_oignon_)


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## Circunflejo

AndrasBP said:


> Apart from Spanish, there's another European language that uses the letter "ñ", although in a different way


Letting aside other languages spoken locally in Spain (like Asturian, Galician, Basque, Aragonese…), there's another European language that has letter ñ: Crimean Tartar.



AndrasBP said:


> Hungarian and Catalan are the only European languages where the sound /ɲ/ is represented by the digraph "NY"


Judaeo-Spanish could be on the list. I think that Turkish uses it too but I'm not sure.


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## Armas

The sound only exists in some dialects of Finnish and there's no standard for writing them, but most often I've seen *nj*. For example standard Finnish _meni_ 'he/she/it went' in Savo dialect is _mänj_ [mæɲ].


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## AndrasBP

Circunflejo said:


> I think that Turkish uses it too but I'm not sure.


The sequence *ny* does occur in Turkish (as in place names Konya, Alanya) but it's pronounced _separately _as /nj/, not as /ɲ/.


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## elroy

Ballenero said:


> The "ñ" sounds the same as "ny" of "canyon" in English





TheCrociato91 said:


> Not strictly on topic, but I'll have to disagree with that.





Ballenero said:


> In English, that "ni" of "onion" is also very close.


 I agree with TheCrociato91 that "canyon" doesn't have this sound, and neither does "onion."  We simply don't have this sound in English.  We don't have it in Arabic, either.  Which is why it's hard for me to produce  (it's also hard for me to perceive the difference between [ɲ] and [nj]).


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## Stoggler

elroy said:


> I agree with TheCrociato91 that "canyon" doesn't have this sound, and neither does "onion."  We simply don't have this sound in English.



Does the sound exist in Irish and (some) Scottish varieties of English, as the /ɲ/ sound exists in the respective Gaelic languages?


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## Circunflejo

AndrasBP said:


> The sequence *ny* does occur in Turkish (as in place names Konya, Alanya) but it's pronounced _separately _as /nj/, not as /ɲ/.


Thanks for the info.


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## AndrasBP

elroy said:


> We simply don't have this sound in English. ... Which is why it's hard for me to produce


I first noticed this when I heard Sting sing in Spanish. He had problems with the word "niño".


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## clamor

In French (at least in my region), */ɲ/* (which is a phoneme, cf. */aɲo/* ''lamb'' vs */ano/* ''ring'') tends to be realized as* [n̪j]* or perhaps *[n̪ʲ]*, with the apex of the tongue touching the teeth.
There is at least one other thread on this topic, but let me add that I think I hardly ever heard the palatal variant.


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## Awwal12

Circunflejo said:


> Letting aside other languages spoken locally in Spain (like Asturian, Galician, Basque, Aragonese…), there's another European language that has letter ñ: Crimean Tartar


It does, although it represents velar /ŋ/ instead.
As for similar nazal sounds (palatal or palatalized), they are abundant in Finno-Ugric languages (Finnish being a rather unusual exception).


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## nimak

nimak said:


> In *Macedonian *and *Serbian *Cyrillic alphabets there is a letter *Њ њ *which represents the sound */ɲ/*.



It seems the letter *Њ њ* represents the sound */ɲ/* in *Itelmen* and *Udege* languages too.


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## DanRM

Spanish speaker here. I've been living in Vietnam for a while, and they have the same sound spelled with NH as in "Ho Chi Minh"


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