# All dialects: You lie, you are lying



## kifaru

I'll guess betakdhab is a reasonable transliteration 
I think that it means
 "Do you lie?"
Is this correct and why is is it not 

hal takadhab
هل _تكذب_


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## elroy

It is a colloquial equivalent of تكذب (or هل تكذب) - so it means "you _(m.)_ lie" or "she lies."  If it's a question, it means "do you _(m.) _lie?" or "does she lie?" 

The pronunciation will vary depending on the dialect.  In Palestinian Arabic we would say "btikzeb."


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## freelancer

you write
أنت تكذب
هل تكذب

بتكذب is slang


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## kifaru

Thanks! So what does the "ب" prefix signify and is this a common verb construction or is it perculiar to Palestine and the surrounding areas? Any examples?
P.S. was my transliteration of تكذب  as takadhab correct or way off base?


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## freelancer

if Iam correct it is like the *ing  *in the english language ,like as if you telling the person that he / she in the process of  lying as they talk 

انت ليه بتكذب عليّ 
انت بتكذب بكلامك الآن


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## elroy

kifaru said:
			
		

> Thanks! So what does the "ب" prefix signify and is this a common verb construction or is it perculiar to Palestine and the surrounding areas? Any examples?
> P.S. was my transliteration of تكذب as takadhab correct or way off base?


 
I don't know what the "بـ" signifies; it's simply a feature of verb conjugation in Palestinian Arabic.  It is added in all forms except for the first person plural, where a "مـ" is added instead.  For example, here is the full conjugation of "to lie" in Palestinian Arabic:

أنا بَكْذِبْ - ana *b*akzeb_ (I lie)_
إنت بْتِكْذِبْ - inte *b*tikzeb _(you [m.] lie)_
إنت بْتِكْذِبي - inti *b*tikzibi _(you [f.] lie)_
هو بِكْذِبْ - huwwe *b*ikzeb _(he lies)_
هي بْتِكْذّبْ - hiyye *b*tikzeb _(she lies)_
إحنا مْنِكْذِبْ - i7na *m*nikzeb _(we lie)_
إنتو بْتِكْذِبوا - intu *b*tikzibu _(you [pl.] lie)_
هن/هم بِكْذِبوا - hinne/humme *b*izkibu _(they lie)_

As for how common this construction is, I know that it is not peculiar to Palestine and the surrounding areas, but I couldn't give you a definite answer as to where it is used and where it is not.  Perhaps native speakers from other countries can contribute to this thread by saying whether or not they use it, and if so, in which forms. 

The correct transliteration of تكذب would be "takdhibu," assuming "dh" is the "th" sound in the English word "this," and assuming the verb is مرفوع (the so-called "indicative case").


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## elroy

freelancer said:
			
		

> if Iam correct it is like the *ing *in the english language ,like as if you telling the person that he / she in the process of lying as they talk
> 
> انت ليه بتكذب عليّ
> انت بتكذب بكلامك الآن


 
I disagree. At least in Palestinian Arabic, it can correspond to the simple present tense. Your first example sentence can mean "Why do you (ever) lie to me (usually, as a habit)?"

In fact, Palestinian Arabic has another way to convey the present progressive: by adding عَمْ (pronounced 3am) before the verb. So in order to say "Why are you lying to me?" without any ambiguity you would say أنت ليش *عَمْ* بتكذب عليّ؟.


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## cherine

Freelancer's explanation is a bit valid though, the (b) reflects the present tense, even if not necessarily the continuous one.

It's true that it's a colloquial use. We use it in Egyptian Arabic too. I like Elroy's conjugated example very much 
We have the exact same thing except for the first person plural one : we use the (b) too, not the (m)



			
				elroy said:
			
		

> In fact, Palestinian Arabic has another way to convey the present progressive: by adding عَمْ (pronounced 3am) before the verb. So in order to say "Why are you lying to me?" without any ambiguity you would say أنت ليش *عَمْ* بتكذب عليّ؟.


In Egyptian we say 3ammaal عَمّال which is close to the Palestinian one


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## elroy

cherine said:
			
		

> Freelancer's explanation is a bit valid though, the (b) reflects the present tense, even if not necessarily the continuous one.


 
Yes, the second sentence does indicate an "-ing" meaning.  What I was trying to say was that this form doesn't _always_ indicate that (which is what I felt Freelancer was saying).  



> It's true that it's a colloquial use. We use it in Egyptian Arabic too. I like Elroy's conjugated example very much
> We have the exact same thing except for the first person plural one : we use the (b) too, not the (m)


 
Glad you liked it. 

Some Palestinians use "b" with "i7na" as well but it's not very common. 



> In Egyptian we say 3ammaal عَمّال which is close to the Palestinian one


 
We use that too , especially in the Galilee - but again, it's not as common.


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## Josh_

cherine said:
			
		

> In Egyptian we say 3ammaal عَمّال which is close to the Palestinian one


I thought that 3ammaal (in Egyptian) expressed the idea of _keeping on_, not necessarily the present continuous (-ing). I also thought there was a slight meaning of intensity (i.e. 3ammaal yiruuH -- rather than just, _"he is going,"_ the meaning is _"he keeps on going;"_ _he constantly goes_" (perhaps against advice or whatever). Am I wrong?

3ammaal yishtiki
he keeps on complaining, i.e. he is a constant complainer (but not necessarily complaining at the present moment).

3ammaliin yishtaghalu
They keep on working (maybe with a connotation of overcoming some adversity, for example, they keep on working despite the fact that they are sick).

for the present continuous I either use the b- form (bitruuH) or the active verbal adjective (raayiH).


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## cherine

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> I thought that 3ammaal (in Egyptian) expressed the idea of _keeping on_, not necessarily the present continuous (-ing). I also thought there was a slight meaning of intensity (i.e. 3ammaal yiruuH -- rather than just, _"he is going,"_ the meaning is _"he keeps on going;"_ _he constantly goes_" (perhaps against advice or whatever). Am I wrong?


You're right. It gives both meanings, according to context.
But I was mainly comparing the two similar forms (i.e. Palestinian and Egyptian).



> for the present continuous I either use the b- form (bitruuH)


This is also correct, and this is why I backed Freelancer's explanation at the beginning. (still do) 



> .. or the active verbal adjective (raayiH).


This is also true.

And there is the Egyptian usage of قاعد+الفعل (note that we -of course- don't pronounce it qaa3id, but rather 2aa3ed, or gaa3ed -peasants and saa3idis- )
قاعد يذاكر-قاعد يتكلم - قاعد يقرا- قاعد آكل - قاعد اتفرج عل التلفزيون​In Fus7a, there's the structure : jaalis+verb :​جالس يقرأ - جالس يتناول طعامه - جالس يستمع للدرس​But I'm not sure if it gives the meaning of "conitnuous" all the time , because the verb after "jaalis" is mainly a حال جملة فعلية​


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## Josh_

cherine said:
			
		

> And there is the Egyptian usage of قاعد+الفعل (note that we -of course- don't pronounce it qaa3id, but rather 2aa3ed, or gaa3ed -peasants and saa3idis- )
> قاعد يذاكر-قاعد يتكلم - قاعد يقرا- قاعد آكل - قاعد اتفرج عل التلفزيون​


Yes, I know about that one also and thought about it as I posted. My understanding is that it does not give off the same intensity as 3ammaal, but off course has the meaning of keeping on. 

That reminds me, I actually used that the 2a3ad + verb structure here on this site.  I tried to get a fables/moralistic stories thread going, but it didn't take off. I included some Goha stories. I'm sure you enjoy a good Goha story so I included the link here in case you missed it.


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## elroy

In Palestinian Arabic, "3am," "3ammaal," and "qaa3ed" refer to the present progressive (continuous). None of them necessarily refers to constantly doing something.



			
				cherine said:
			
		

> Quote:
> for the present continuous I either use the b- form (bitruuH)
> This is also correct, and this is why I backed Freelancer's explanation at the beginning. (still do)


 
I'm perplexed by this.

To me, the _b_-form is the _present simple_. In _some contexts_, it can be present progressive (just like in the Romance languages, or in old English [it raineth]), but on its own it does not convey that meaning. 

After all, if you think this form is equivalent to "3ammaal," etc., what form do you use for the present simple? How do you say "I eat an apple every day"?

I think we need to make clear the distinction between what something _can_ mean in certain contexts and what it _does_ mean, on its own, all else being equal.


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## Josh_

elroy said:
			
		

> In Palestinian Arabic, "3am," "3ammaal," and "qaa3ed" refer to the present progressive (continuous). None of them necessarily refers to constantly doing something.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm perplexed by this.
> 
> To me, the _b_-form is the _present simple_. In _some contexts_, it can be present progressive (just like in the Romance languages, or in old English [it raineth]), but on its own it does not convey that meaning.
> 
> After all, if you think this form is equivalent to "3ammaal," etc., what form do you use for the present simple? How do you say "I eat an apple every day"?
> 
> I think we need to make clear the distinction between what something _can_ mean in certain contexts and what it _does_ mean, on its own, all else being equal.


Well, it definitely depends on the context. It can be either present continuous action or continuous action over a period of time.

"bitruuH feen dilwa2ti?"
"Where are you going (now)?"
"baruuH il-maHaTTa."
"I am going to the station."

vs.

"bitruuH feen kull yoom?"
"Where do you go every day?"
"baruuH il-maHaTTa kull yoom."
"I go to the station everyday."

As for your other question it would be:
baakul tufaaHa kull yoom.


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> Well, it definitely depends on the context. It can be either present continuous action or continuous action over a period of time.
> 
> "bitruuH feen dilwa2ti?"
> "Where are you going (now)?"
> "baruuH il-maHaTTa."
> "I am going to the station."
> 
> I don't know about Egyptian Arabic, but to my Palestinian ears those sound wrong. I would use "raaye7" in these contexts.
> 
> vs.
> 
> "bitruuH feen kull yoom?"
> "Where do you go every day?"
> "baruuH il-maHaTTa kull yoom."
> "I go to the station everyday."
> 
> As for your other question it would be:
> baakul tufaaHa kull yoom.


 
Exactly - that's the point!

My question about the translation of "I eat an apple every day" was more rhetorical than anything else. The point is that the _b-_form can be more than the present progressive (as both your second set of examples and the apple example prove). In fact, the present _simple_ meaning is the common one, while the progressive meaning is one that is possible only in certain contexts.

In other words, I would translate "baakol" as "I eat" and not "I am eating" - which it can only mean in certain contexts.


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## Josh_

elroy said:
			
		

> Exactly - that's the point!
> 
> My question about the translation of "I eat an apple every day" was more rhetorical than anything else.  The point is that the _b-_form can be more than the present progressive (as both your second set of examples and the apple example prove). In fact, the present _simple_ meaning is the common one, while the progressive meaning is one that it possible only in certain contexts.
> 
> In other words, I would translate "baakol" as "I eat" and not "I am eating" - which it can only mean in certain contexts.


You're right, raayi7 might be better, but both work. They can be used interchangeably. In some cases certain ones might be better, like the verb 2a3ad. I would definitely not say "ana ba23ud" when I am already sitting. I would say "ana 2aa3id." I would use "ana ba23ud" if I was just about to sit. (Talking about Egyptian Arabic) But you need to be careful because some active verbal adjectives (ava) have the meaning of just having done something. And one of them happens to be the ava of the verb 2akal. If I wanted to say i am eating I would say "ana baakul." I would not say ana waakil -- that has the meaning of having just ate:

ana (lissa) waakul kushari.
I have just eaten kushari.

"tiHibb taakul?"
"Would you like to eat?"
"la2a, ana lissa waakul."
"No, I just ate."

The ava of sharab (to drink) is also that way:

huwwa shaarib shay.
He has just drank tea.

So, in Egyptian Arabic, you could only say bashrab, bitishrab, etc. for I am drinking, you are drinking, in this case.


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> You're right, raayi7 might be better, but both work.


 
Definitely not in Palestinian Arabic. 

Similarly, If I were about to sit, I would _not_ say "ana ba23ud" with the meaning "I am (in the process of) sitting down."

I am aware of what you said about the AVA in Egyptian Arabic.


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## elroy

_The title of this thread has been changed to reflect the breadth of the discussion it has branched off into.  _


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## cherine

elroy said:
			
		

> Definitely not in Palestinian Arabic.


Nor in Egyptian Arabic.
If you say bitruu7 fein delwa2ti, it wil sound very very weird. In the context of delaw2ti (i.e. right now) we'd say : raaye7 not betruu7.



			
				  said:
			
		

> Similarly, If I were about to sit, I would _not_ say "ana ba23ud" with the meaning "I am (in the process of) sitting down."


Same here.



> I am aware of what you said about the AVA in Egyptian Arabic.


I'm not. What is AVA ?


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## cherine

elroy said:
			
		

> To me, the _b_-form is the _present simple_. In _*some contexts*_, it can be present progressive (just like in the Romance languages, or in old English [it raineth]), but on its own it does not convey that meaning.


Yes Elroy, SOME contexts not all.



> After all, if you think this form is equivalent to "3ammaal," etc., what form do you use for the present simple? How do you say "I eat an apple every day"?


koll yoom aakol tufaa7a كل يوم آكل تفاحة
i.e. we can some times ommit the (b). But I don't say that 3ammal= b. They have different connotations.


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## elroy

cherine said:
			
		

> Nor in Egyptian Arabic.
> If you say bitruu7 fein delwa2ti, it wil sound very very weird. In the context of delaw2ti (i.e. right now) we'd say : raaye7 not betruu7.
> 
> 
> Same here.


 
Thanks for the confirmation. 
I had a feeling it wouldn't work in Egyptian Arabic as well but as a non-Egyptian I can't claim to be an authority. 



> I'm not. What is AVA ?


 
The "raaye7" form - see Josh's post #16.



> we can some times ommit the (b). But I don't say that 3ammal= b. They have different connotations.


 
Thanks for the clarification!


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## Josh_

cherine said:
			
		

> Nor in Egyptian Arabic.
> If you say bitruu7 fein delwa2ti, it wil sound very very weird. In the context of delaw2ti (i.e. right now) we'd say : raaye7 not betruu7.


Maybe there are differences between Alexandria and Cairo, I don't know. I agree that raayi7 is better (and I usually say this) but both technically work. I lived with an Egyptian family for several months in Egypt and they would use this phrasing a lot. The woman would call her husband on the phone and say, "butruu7 feen, ya gamaal?"


> Similarly, If I were about to sit, I would _not_ say "ana ba23ud" with the meaning "I am (in the process of) sitting down."
> 
> 
> 
> Same here.
Click to expand...

I should have provided context. For example, a mother repeatedly telling her stubborn child (who does not want to sit down) to sit down to which he/she finally says in snide exasperation, "ana ba23ud, ya mama!" That's what I was thinking about when I posted.

Of course, the only other situation I would use it in would be habitual action:

ba23ud fil-gineena kull yoom.


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## elroy

Josh Adkins said:
			
		

> Maybe there are differences between Alexandria and Cairo, I don't know. I agree that raayi7 is better (and I usually say this) but both technically work. I lived with an Egyptian family for several months in Egypt and they would use this phrasing a lot. The woman would call her husband on the phone and say, "butruu7 feen, ya gamaal?"


 
Hm...still sounds very strange but everything is possible! 



> I should have provided context. For example, a mother repeatedly telling her stubborn child (who does not want to sit down) to sit down to which he/she finally says in snide exasperation, "ana ba23ud, ya mama!" That's what I was thinking about when I posted.


 
If you mean "Tayyeb, ba23ud" as in "Ok, fine, I'll sit down" (a Palestinian child would not say "ana"), then that's different.  I would consider that the _future-tense_ usage of the present tense, also found in the Romance languages.  (In fact, you'll hear native speakers of these languages mistakenly say in English, "Ok, I sit down.")  That is, indeed, quite common but I wouldn't consider it a _present-progressive_ meaning.


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## fatiha

bonjour

in morocco we dont said: بتكذب
we said: كتكذب 
May be other country prounonced differently..

please correct my english 

fatiha


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## elroy

fatiha said:
			
		

> bonjour
> 
> In Morocco we don't said say: بتكذب
> We said say: كتكذب
> Maybe in other countryies it is prounounced differently..
> 
> Please correct my English
> 
> fatiha


 
As requested, I've corrected your English.  Your English is good, but please remember to capitalize the first word of every sentence.

So does كتكذب mean "I lie" or "I am lying"?  And how would you pronounce it?  Could you give us a full conjugation in the present tense, with transliterations?


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## fatiha

السلام عليكم

I am happy for the correction:
in Morocco we say:كتكذب، كتقول،  كتلعب 
يعني حرف الكاف ، وفي دول اخرى عربية يستعملون حرف الباء 
بتكذب، بتقول، بتلعب
كتكذب يعني you are lying.
أما كنكذب ،تعني i lie
هذا ما عندي 
فاتحة


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## cherine

Ok Josh, I think I got what you mean.
The problem was that you were using verbs that are not usually used this way; which was very interesting by the way, because I had this idea about some forms that can't be used with all verbs.
Here's a bit what I mean :
We day ana batla3 es-sellem delwa2ti (I'm coming up the stairs now), ana baakol, ana bashrab... but ana baruu7 is not used with the meaning of continuous; we rather use raaye7.

Fati7a, could you please put علامات التشكيل I can't understand very much the difference in pronounciation of the two كتكذب
Thank you


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## fatiha

Dear 
Cherine how are you? I think you are fine ان شاء الله
i dont know how to do pour التشكيل 
I just write only 
فاتحة


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## Hemza

In Moroccan, we also say "ta" before verbs, for the continuous present, it depends of the area, some say "ka", some "ta". I will take the example of "fatiha":
"kataktab" also exists under the form "tataktab" which means "you're writing" or "are you writing?" depending on the context. Those kind of prefix don't exist near the Algerian border though.

In 7ejazi (Bedouin and Urban), we say "ga3id aktib" which means "I'm writing" as well as in Najdi and Gulf dialects (and may be, Yemeni too, but I'm not sure).


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## Zoghbi

*Algeria:
راك* تكذب
*rak* takdheb  (rural)
*rak* tekdeb (littoral cities)


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## Arabic_Police_999

hmm, I noticed in najdi arabic, that we use qaa3id to express present continuous somtimes
وش *قاعد تسوي* what *are you doing*
*قاعد آكل* *I am eating*


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