# Úgy/Így



## clma

Hi,

I would appreciate if someone could explain the use of these two adverbs and their effect (if any) on nouns, verbs, other adverbs, etc. 

Thanks in Advance


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## Olivier0

_Úgy_ = like that; _így_ = like this.
I am not sure what you mean by "their effect", maybe you refer to that special use of Hungarian demonstratives:
- Hungarian front-vowel ie. proximity demonstratives (this, here, etc.) as "anaphoric" ie. referring to something already mentioned:
_ezt mondja_ = this is what it says,
_így is lehet _= this way (the way you just did it / suggested it) is also possible,
- Hungarian back-vowel ie. distance demonstratives (that, there, etc.) as "cataphoric" ie. referring to something that follows, introducing a sentence:
_azt mondja, hogy ... _= it says that ...
_úgy is lehet, hogy_ ... = another possible way / possibility is that ...
-- Olivier


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## clma

Olivier0 said:


> I am not sure what you mean by "their effect"



I have found that the literal translation of the word, 'so' in Sztaki, is almost always omitted and the fundamental meaning of the sentence is changed when it is used.

Also, when the word is used in conjunction with some other verbs/adverbs (már/épp/lenni/...) the meaning can imply something completely different from the dictionary translation of each word without the others.


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## Ateesh6800

Well, it looks like there is a gap between what you see in an online dictionary and between what you see in real life sentences.  I'd recommend a Hungarian grammar book that explains basic Hungarian grammar. The good old way to fill that gap. 

In terms of _proximity_, Hungarian has a dual system: *ez/az* = _this/that_; *itt/ott* = _here/there_; *így/úgy* = _this way/that way_. (Spanish has three categories: _aquí-acá/ahí/allí-allá_.)

It is important, however, to clearly see the *function* of *így/úgy* in any given sentence.

*Í**gy/úgy* mostly goes with *verbs* ("I do it _this way_, you do it _that way_; we're different.")
There are two schools of pealing a banana depending on at which end you open it, right?
Én _így_ eszem a banánt.
_This is how_ I eat bananas.
I eat bananas _like this_.
(I'd say this when I have a banana with me to demonstrate.)

Én _úgy_ eszem a banánt, hogy...
The way I eat bananas is the following...
(I'd say this when I do not have a banana with me to demonstrate so I give a verbal description of the process.)

As far as *így/úgy* having an effect on *nouns*, I don't see what you mean. Please explain.

*Így *may also act as a *conjunction* between sentences:
Sokat ettem karácsonykor, *így* (aztán) nem férek a nadrágomba.
I ate a lot around Christmas, _so/therefore/this way/as a result_ I can't fit into my pants.

* * *

-- Nézd, kijavítottam a hibákat. / Look, I've corrected the mistakes.
-- *Így* már jó lesz. / *This way* it'll be fine. =
-- *Így* jó lesz. / *This way* it'll be fine.
(This is what I'd say when I have the corrected homework right in front of me.)

-- Hazamegyek és kijavítom a hibákat. / I'll go home and correct the mistakes.
-- *Ú**gy* már jó lesz. / *That way* it'll be fine. =
-- *Úgy* jó lesz. / *That way* it'll be fine.
(In this case, I don't actually see the homework.)

Note, however, that the use of this/that is not rigid and both may be used in the same sentence with slight differences in meaning; thus:

-- Nézd, kijavítottam a hibákat. / Look, I've corrected the mistakes.
-- *Úgy* már jó lesz. / *That way* it'll be fine. =
-- *Ú**gy* jó lesz. / *That way* it'll be fine.
(Here the implied *így* refers to the way it is now, and the explicit *úgy* refers to the corrected future state of the homework.)

There is also a redundant fad-like use of *így* in current spoken Hungarian, similar to the overuse of *like* in English:
-- Hát én szerintem *így* azt most nem tudnám megmondani, de ja.
-- Well I guess I don't think I could sort of answer that question _right now_ but I guess maybe yes?

I'd risk to say that the use of *így/úgy* is quite intuitive once you clearly see if it is an _adverb_ or a _conjunction _in any given sentence.

But if you need more clarification, please don't hesitate to share _a few complete sentences_ you have a problem with understanding or analysing.

*A.*


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## clma

Ateesh6800 said:


> As far as *így/úgy* having an effect on *nouns*, I don't see what you mean. Please explain.



I meant to say the role of the adverb as a conjunction. 



Ateesh6800 said:


> But if you need more clarification, please don't hesitate to share _a few complete sentences_ you have a problem with understanding or analysing.



OK. I am unsure how interpret így together with other adverbs such as már, most, is, etc within the same phrase. 

1. Ez így már régen rossz, igaz?! 

In this phrase there is no verb. I assume that it is a declarative phrase so 'van' is implied?

2. Így már van esélye álláshoz jutni Angliában

I am unsure whether the adverbs act on 'van' or 'jutni'. Both are infinitives in the third person with no personal conjugations. (I also have questions about why the case of állás is 'hoz' without a fixed noun-verb conjugation pattern, but I will leave that for another thread)

3. Ne félj, ez így most jó

Similar to (1), there is no verb. Should I assume that adverbs can act on verbs in different separate phrases?

4. Így is lehet domolykózni

I do not understand the combination of 'in this way' and 'too' together with a modal verb and an infinite. It comes out as it should be a question rather than a statement.

5a. Még így is jól szolgálta a felkészülést 

Three adverbs in a row with no verb. How should I interpret this?

5b. Így most már tényleg csak az marad, amit ...

Five adverbs in a row acting on 'marad'. How should I interpret this?


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## Ateesh6800

clma said:


> I meant to say the role of the adverb as a conjunction.



OK. I'll go through your sentences.

*1. Ez így már régen rossz, igaz?!*
_Now that's really bad, isn't it?_
*
-- (valami) régen rossz* is an idiom meaning something is _definitely_ and _undeniably_ wrong. Literally, it is a definitive phrase meaning "it has been wrong for a long time", which however doesn't refer to _actual time_; it refers to the fact that we have learned a piece of relevant information that changes the outlook: "Now, having realised that, things (already) look very different."

-- *..., igaz?* is simply a tag question, right?

-- Ez *így* már régen rossz: így here is simply an adverb referring to something said previously in the conversation.

A possible context: 
He's been really nice to me lately; I've been getting gifts and sweets and flowers for weeks now. This morning he proposed to marry me. I was so happy! Then in the afternoon I learned from his friends that Immigration has been hassling him for two weeks now -- so his real motive was to get a resident visa, that's why he proposed, and that's why he's been super nice. *Ez így már régen rossz, nem?*

The phrase *így, így már* refers to the new scenario (guy wants visa and proposes out of self interest), while the implied *úgy, úgy még* refers to a previous scenario (the one before the truth came out: guy loves girl and proposes honestly).

"_Now_, having learned that all he's after is citizenship, his proposal does not make me quite that happy."

_Úgy_ örültem is volna, _ha önzetlen_.
_Úgy_ még örültem is volna, _ha önzetlen_.
(I would have been happy had he been honest in proposing. _That way_ I would have been happy even. _This way_ I am not.)

Now, *így/úgy* often refers to a clause:

You can't catch a bird making a noise. You can't catch a bird if you make a noise.
*Úgy* nem tudsz madarat fogni, _ha zajt csinálsz_.
*Úgy* nem tudsz madarat fogni, hogy _zajt csinálsz_.

An yes, *régen rossz* is in the present tense, and the verb *van* is not used.

* * *

*2. Így már van esélye álláshoz jutni Angliában.*
"I am unsure whether the adverbs act on 'van' or 'jutni'. Both are  infinitives in the third person with no personal conjugations."

No. *Van* is _present third person singular_ in the meaning _exists/there is_.
*Van... (neki) valamije* is the phrase for _he has something_.
Van neki esélye. = He has a chance.
Így van esélye. = This way he has a chance. (Implying: this way, that is, _having married the girl and having a visa._ For example.)
Így már van esélye. = *Már* simply refers to the new scenario; an implied *még* would refer to the prevous scenario: that way/úgy (ie. not having a visa) he didn't have/wouldn't have a chance.

The infinitive *álláshoz jutni* = _to get a job_ simply goes with esély: (to have) a chance to get a job = (van) esély(e) álláshoz jutni.

So "így" does not act on anything; it simply replaces another sentence from the previous discussion:
*(Mivel megszerezte a vízumot,) már van esélye álláshoz jutni Angliában.*
*Így már van esélye álláshoz jutni Angliában.*

I'll respond to the rest later during the day. Feel free to feed back if this is the sort of answer that helps you.

*A.*


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## Olivier0

I have a feeling you are studying some grammatical features without  knowing Hungarian, which is perfectly possible but would require a  word-by-word translation first, before asking about the exact  grammatical relationships:

1. Ez így már régen rossz, igaz?!
ez = this
így = like this, in the way shown + már = already -> így már = in the (new) way it is
régen = (has been) for a long time + rossz  = (is) bad (no verb "to be" in present tense 3rd  person, except with a complement of time/place, or as  "there is/are") -> régen rossz = is really bad
igaz = (is) true, is that true/right? -> isn't it?

2. Így már van esélye álláshoz jutni Angliában
így = like this, in the way shown + már = already -> így már = in the (new) way it is
van = is, there is + esélye = his/her chance -> van esélye = he/she has a chance/possibility
állás = job + jut = obtain, reach -> álláshoz jutni = to get a job
Angliában = in England, in the UK

3. Ne félj, ez így most jó
ne = not (negation with imperative/subjunctive mode)
félj = be afraid (imperative 2nd p. sg.)
ez = this
így = like this, in the way shown -> the way it is
most = now
jó = (is) good

4. Így is lehet domolykózni
így = like this, in the way shown or just demonstrated/explained
is = also
lehet = it is possible
domolykó = chub or dace (some kinds of fish) -> domolykózni = to fish chub/dace

5a. Még így is jól szolgálta a felkészülést

még = still + is = also -> még ... is = even
így = like this, in the way shown -> the way it is
jól = well + szolgálta = it has served -> jól szolgálta = it has been quite useful for
a felkészülést = the preparation

5b. Így most már tényleg csak az marad, amit ...
így = like this  -> in the way it is / as a consequence + most = now, at present + már  = already -> így most már = so now ...
tényleg = really
csak = only
marad = remains, is left
az = that + amit ... = (the thing) that ... (object: eg. amit mondasz = that you say) -> what ... (eg.: what you say)

PS. Ateesh was quicker


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## Ateesh6800

Still waiting for your feedback whether the above has been helpful. 

But I'll take a shot at the last one.

*5b. Így most már tényleg csak az marad, amit ...*

This is not complicated at all; it's just a lot of things in a sentence.
_This way, really, the only option that we're stuck with (that remains) is [doing something]..._

These are not misteriously complicated phrases or constructions. Let me show this to you by eliminating, one by one, parts of speech that are optional in the sentence:

*Így most már tényleg csak az marad, amit ...*
*tényleg* = _really_; you can leave it out without breaking the grammatical structure.
*Így most már csak az marad, amit ...*
*most már* is pretty much the same as *már* (_by now; at this point_), so you can leave the word *most* out without breaking the grammatical structure:
*Így már csak az marad, amit ...*
*így* here _refers back to any previous information mentioned in the conversation_; it simply means _in this case, thus, accordingly, under these circumstances,_ _having realised this, whit that in mind,_ etc. So you can leave it our without breaking the grammatical structure:
*Már csak az marad...* _All we're stuck with by now is..._
*Már* here refers to the fact that we have been eliminating options, and _by now _all that we're stuck with is [doing something].
*Csak az marad, amit [...]* _= All we're stuck with is what [XY proposed]_...

Small print for our committed Moderator: While the rules do not allow explaining all the aspects of a sentence, the specific question here was _"Five adverbs in a row acting on 'marad'. How should I interpret this?"_ My point was to explain that _all those parts of speach are simply accumulated on top of one another_ and do not form any misterious or complicated grammatical structure.

To *cIma*: please comment if you find this helpful.

Thanks,

*A.*


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## clma

Ateesh: This was very helpful. Thanks for the detailed posts (Also, thanks for clearing that point with the moderator).


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## Olivier0

clma said:


> I have found that the literal translation of the  word, 'so' in Sztaki, is almost always omitted (...)


Your examples of _így _rather show the opposite, small accompanying words "absorbed" into the meaning "so":
- _így már, így most, így most már_: _már _and _most _sometimes carry little meaning, what they really add to the meaning in such cases is an interesting question;
- _így is, még így is_: the grammatical question here is _is_, which is sometimes like a weak "and" (like _nem is _or _meg is ..._; also _úgy is_ ~ anyway).
-- Olivier


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## Akitlosz

Ne *úgy* csináld, (ahogyan csinálod) hanem *így* (ahogyan én mutatom)!

Do not do it the way (as you do it), but so, (as I will show it)!


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## Ateesh6800

Akitlosz said:


> Ne *úgy* csináld, (ahogyan csinálod) hanem *így* (ahogyan én mutatom)!


Don't do it *that way* (ie. the way you're doing it); instead, do it *this way* (ie. the way I'm showing it to you).


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