# ha autorità ma non ha autorevolezza



## frapic

Come tradurreste in inglese: "quella persona ha autorità ma non ha autorevolezza"?

In italiano, 'autorità' viene usato per indicare l'insieme di poteri decisionali che viene assegnata dall'alto (es. Un comandante militare ha autorità).
La 'autorevolezza' è invece la qualità di leadership riconosciuta comunemente dagli altri

Un comandante può essere autoritario ma non autorevole
Uno scienziato competente può essere autorevole ma non autoritario


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## ocramz

"that person is authoritarian but not authoritative", letteralmente


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## rrose17

When you say someone is authoritarian it means they are very strict or a bit of a tyrant. I'm trying to think of a way to play with the words but it's not obvious. You would have to say "that person is an authority but not on the subject" or
_That person has the authority but lacks the know-how.
That person has the authority but not the knowledge._


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## Anja.Ann

Ciao a tutti  

I agree with Rrose.

Not really sure, but based on Rrose's: "That person has a certain authority but lacks authoritativeness" (?)


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## underhouse

Forse:

That person has authority but not ascendancy.


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## AlabamaBoy

Are we talking about leadership or expertise?


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## underhouse

AlabamaBoy said:


> Are we talking about leadership or expertise?



Hi AB 

yes, it has to do with consideration deriving from achievements in a specific field...for example, a researcher is "autorevole" when his opinions are highly regarded by his fellow researchers.


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## AlabamaBoy

Ah. My question was "either .... or" but I see maybe we are talking about "(commanding) respect."


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## You little ripper!

AlabamaBoy said:


> Ah. My question was "either .... or" but I see maybe we are talking about "(commanding) respect."


That's the way I understand it, AB. 

Maybe, _..........has the authority but not the ability to command respect.  _


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## rrose17

Anja.Ann said:


> "That person has a certain authority but lacks authoritativeness" (?)


So I see I was way off and Anja.A was on the mark! Unfortunately it sounds a little odd... What about working with AB and CC's comments
_That person has the authority but doesn't command it.

_


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## Miguel de Unamuno

I would say: "That person has a certain authority, but lacks authoritative knowledge on the matter."

There is probably no way to translate this without being a little clunky.


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## Odysseus54

rrose17 said:


> So I see I was way off and Anja.A was on the mark! Unfortunately it sounds a little odd... What about working with AB and CC's comments
> _That person has the authority but doesn't command it.
> 
> _




I think that's pretty good.  

A variant could be " .. has the authority but no leadership skills "


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## Anja.Ann

Plop !

Rrose, are you saying that I need some days off?   
Does "authoritativeness" make any sense to you, AlabamaBoy and Charlie? I mean, I know that dictionaries may include words that are hardly used, but I'm asking: have you ever heard or used this word?  

Thank you 

EDIT
Sorry, Odysseus, cross-posting


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## Odysseus54

Another variant could be " That person has authority but no charisma ".


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## Miguel de Unamuno

I've certainly heard and used "authoritativeness."  It can have a variety of different meanings, from referring to the excessive exercise of power to a legitimate authority, frequently based on one's knowledge.


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## AlabamaBoy

Anja.Ann said:


> Does "authoritativeness" make any sense to you, AlabamaBoy and Charlie?


 You can call me "Al." 
It makes sense, but as rrose says, it sounds very unusual, and we like to avoid using the same root word twice. I think I would say "_That person has the authority but doesn't command the respect of his team."_


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## You little ripper!

Anja.Ann said:


> Plop !


Did you just fall into a lake, Annie? 



> Does "authoritativeness"  make any sense to you, AlabamaBoy and Charlie? I mean, I know that  dictionaries may include words that are hardly used, but I'm asking:  have you ever heard or used this word?


  I use the word occasionally but because it's so difficult to pronounce I try to avoid it if I can.


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## CPA

Just to keep the ball rolling... 

_That person has authority but no credibility._


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## Anja.Ann

Thanks a lot Al, Charlie and Miguel! I'm feeling better!  
Oh, yes, Charlie! You got it right!  ... Lake Eyre!!!


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## cercolumi

Solo per la cronaca, ho sempre sentito questo modo di descrivere un capo in questa versione: "è autoritario ma non autorevole" volendo significare che è una persona che ottiene obbedienza dai suoi sottoposti non attraverso le qualità ed il carisma proprie di un leader naturale (autorevolezza) ma tramite la paura che la sua posizione di comando incute (autorità).


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## luway

Io sento usare questa distinzione anche in ambito psicologico, nelle descrizioni del carattere di una persona: un padre può essere severo, urlare e punire, quindi autoritario, ma non mostrare assertività e capacità e quindi mancare nei fatti di autorevolezza. Anche nel caso dell'andare a cavallo ho sentito dire che ciò che viene riconosciuto dall'animale è l'autorevolezza del cavallerizzo e non il suo essere autoritario, intesi come modi di diversi di condurlo, fargli capire le proprie intenzioni, perfino come 'presenza' (energia!) che si trasmette e può venir colta da lui. O da altri, nel caso di contesti in cui non si ha a che fare con cavalli ma con altre persone, ovviamente.


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## marcolettici

"He's an authoritarian, but lacks leadership" might work.


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## Odysseus54

However, the initial post defines 'autorita' ' in a different way :

_In italiano, 'autorità' viene usato per indicare l'insieme di poteri  decisionali che viene assegnata dall'alto (es. Un comandante militare ha  autorità).
La 'autorevolezza' è invece la qualità di leadership riconosciuta comunemente dagli altri_


Maybe then :  " He has the title, but no leadership (skills) "


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## Einstein

Odysseus54 said:


> However, the initial post defines 'autorita' ' in a different way :
> _In italiano, 'autorità' viene usato per indicare l'insieme di poteri  decisionali che viene assegnata dall'alto (es. Un comandante militare ha  autorità).
> La 'autorevolezza' è invece la qualità di leadership riconosciuta comunemente dagli altri_
> Maybe then :  " He has the title, but no leadership (skills) "


Yes, "authority" is derived from the official position held. For example, a person who becomes head of a university faculty because he knows the right people, and not because he is an expert in his field, *has authority* (formal authority, his decisions must be respected) but *is not authoritative*. It doesn't mean he is necessarily *authoritarian*.

Another possibility (not very serious):
"He has authority but is not an authority"?


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## marcolettici

I think "He has the authority, but not the leadership" could serve pretty well.  
Or "He has the authority, but lacks leadership."  
Or "While he may have the authority, he lacks (the) leadership."


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## Einstein

But a point about "leadership": this is a purely personal quality. On the other hand we say that a person is "authoritative" if he knows what he is talking about, so it's a question of knowledge and understanding within a given field. The Accademia della Crusca is an authoritative source of reference on the Italian language; this is nothing to do with personal leadership skills.


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## Odysseus54

Einstein said:


> Yes, "authority" is derived from the official position held. For example, a person who becomes head of a university faculty because he knows the right people, and not because he is an expert in his field, *has authority* (formal authority, his decisions must be respected) but *is not authoritative*. It doesn't mean he is necessarily *authoritarian*.
> 
> Another possibility (not very serious):
> "He has authority but is not an authority"?




Here 'being an authority' would mean 'being an expert' on the subject.


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## Einstein

Odysseus54 said:


> Here 'being an authority' would mean 'being an expert' on the subject.


And isn't that practically what "being authoritative" means? I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing. An authoritative view is one based on experience and/or study, one that people will tend to accept because they respect its source.
If a person is authoritative, I think it means that people see him as someone whose views are valid and can be safely accepted.


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## tsoapm

Um, I think Einstein's effectively already made what would be my suggestion; I just have to take out some words:





Einstein said:


> e […] *has authority* … but [*isn't] authoritative*.


I think "authoritative" is what the doctor ordered in this case. Piace?

*Edit:* I just had another idea (but I think I like it less):

He has authority, but isn't an authority.

Just putting it out there. "to be an authority" is probably too strong. You could say that the OED was an authority, for example.


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## Odysseus54

Einstein said:


> And isn't that practically what "being authoritative" means? I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing. An authoritative view is one based on experience and/or study, one that people will tend to accept because they respect its source.
> If a person is authoritative, I think it means that people see him as someone whose views are valid and can be safely accepted.



Yes, "authoritative" in English - non (sempre/solo) "autorevole" in italiano,

1) che puo' significare "authoritative"  Es. : "Una fonte autorevole" = "An authoritative source"

ma anche

2) "exuding natural leadership and charisma"  =  "Una persona autorevole" = "A charismatic individual"


In italiano 'autorevolezza' (come qualita' personale) e' quasi una qualita' innata, oppure viene con l'educazione ( upbringing ) piuttosto che con lo studio.  Se invece si parla di libri, testi , oppure anche di persone, considerate pero' come 'fonte', 'autorevole' coincide con 'authoritative'.


I hope I am not boring you too much


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## london calling

This is quite interesting.

_Autorevole ma non autoritario_ is something I've heard quite a lot. I might be mistaken, but I think it's a quote (or almost) but I really can't remember who was supposed to have said it (an Ancient Roman, I think).

A person like that commands respect but isn't overbearing. The original sentence means the opposite, as you have all pointed out.


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## GavinW

Just for the record, I have a new suggestion: 

I had this sentence (citing a politician):
«Con tutto il rispetto per l’autorevolezza dei suoi componenti, ma il “Consiglio superiore di difesa” ha fatto un involontario scivolone». 

And I translated it thus:
“With all due respect for the standing of its members, but the ‘Higher Defense Council’ has involuntarily slipped up.”  

I feel I could likewise, in this sentence (at least), have used either "authoritativeness" (which I don't like very much) or "expertise" (which conveys a slightly different meaning, of course). But our preferred term will depend on the connotations of each specific context.


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## Andr34

frapic said:


> Come tradurreste in inglese: "quella persona ha autorità ma non ha autorevolezza"?
> 
> In italiano, 'autorità' viene usato per indicare l'insieme di poteri decisionali che viene assegnata dall'alto (es. Un comandante militare ha autorità).
> La 'autorevolezza' è invece la qualità di leadership riconosciuta comunemente dagli altri
> 
> Un comandante può essere autoritario ma non autorevole
> Uno scienziato competente può essere autorevole ma non autoritario


During my job in a US corp, managers were used to use terms powership ( one who exercise power over another) vs leadership (recognized by others as a leader even if he/she has not a formal role)


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## london calling

Welcome.

Maybe that was corporate slang confined to the company you worked for because you won't find it any dictionaries with that meaning. A 'powership' is, literally, a ship with a power plant on board. Then there used to be a Fedex parcel shipping service known as PowerShip.


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## markster

He has the authority but his manner doesn't naturally command respect.


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## Varini

frapic said:


> Come tradurreste in inglese: "quella persona ha autorità ma non ha autorevolezza"?
> 
> In italiano, 'autorità' viene usato per indicare l'insieme di poteri decisionali che viene assegnata dall'alto (es. Un comandante militare ha autorità).
> La 'autorevolezza' è invece la qualità di leadership riconosciuta comunemente dagli altri
> 
> Un comandante può essere autoritario ma non autorevole
> Uno scienziato competente può essere autorevole ma non autoritario


I thought of the work of Max Weber (so originally In German) he distinguishes three types of authority: 

Traditional authority: Power legitimized by respect for long-established cultural patterns.

Charismatic authority: Power legitimized by extraordinary personal abilities that inspire devotion and obedience. 
= "autorevolezza"

Rational-legal authority: Also known as bureaucratic authority, is when power is legitimized by legally enacted rules and regulations.
= "autorità"


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## markster

He has the authority but not the attributes of a leader.


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