# Bulgarian/Torlakian: Would this be an example of a case?



## trosheniorasi

I read somewhere that Bulgarian-Torlakian does not have cases. Than what would this be considered:

Мачката на бай Иван vs. Нарани мачкуту. (Ivan's cat vs Feed the cat.)
Мачките на  бай Иван vs. Нарани мачкйете. (Ivan's cats vs Feed the cats)


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## DenisBiH

That sure seems like cases to me.

BCS:
_Ivanova mačk*a*_ vs. _Nahrani mačk*u*._
_t*a* mačk*a*_ (nom.) - _t*u* mačk*u*_ (acc.) - that cat

I was just about to ask you the same question about гранкю in the other thread. How would you say "small branch" using that word?


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## Vulcho

Torlak does have accusative case, and some varieties have also dative. The Pomak dialect in northern Greece also seems to have accusative case (rabata vs rabato).
In general, the difference between having cases, and having remnants of cases is quite blurred. Your first example is an example of active and functional accusative case in Torlak (мачка-мачку), while the second is not right and should be мачкете in both sentences. This is a Serbian feature - plural of feminine nouns is in -e, while in Bulgarian it is -i. So the word мачките would be influence from Standard Bulgarian.


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## trosheniorasi

I don't think that you can say "small branch". It is used in to specify a branch that can be used as a stick (пръчка), so it has to be of a specific size. My grandmother would say "клонче" if the stick is too small.


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## DenisBiH

trosheniorasi said:


> I don't think that you can say "small branch". It is used in to specify a branch that can be used as a stick (пръчка), so it has to be of a specific size. My grandmother would say "клонче" if the stick is too small.



Let me rephrase then. Is there a form гранкя or гранка?


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## trosheniorasi

DenisBiH said:


> Let me rephrase then. Is there a form гранкя or гранка?


Гранкя does exist, but it does not refer to a small branch. I think (and I am probably wrong) it is an example of a case or it's a variation in the dialect. I am having trouble thinking of a good example where гранкя would be used, this is the best I can come up with:
Подай ми оную гранкю (Pass me this branch) vs У мъзето има некиква гранкя (There is some branch in the basement).


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## Arath

The Eastern Bulgarian dialects also have the same feature, although nowadays they no longer preserve the distinction between nominative and accusative. The accusative forms can be used instead of the nominative - *жината* vs *жинътъ*, *вудата* vs *вудътъ*, *тази жина* vs *тъзи жинъ*. In Old Bulgarian the accusative forms of most feminine nouns ended in *ѫ* (big yus), which in the Eastern Bulgarian dialects became to be pronounced as *ъ* (*м**ѫж* > *мъж*, *з**ѫб* > *зъб*), whereas in the Westernmost Bulgarian dialects and in the Serbian language is pronounces as *У* (*муж*, *зуб*).

The Rupski dialects (in the Rhodope mountains) have the most case remnants:

Nominative: *човек - човекот*
Accusative: *човека - човекатог*
Dative: *човеку - човекутому*

Nominative: *жена - жената*
Accusative: *женъ - женъта*
Dative: *жени - женитохи*

They even have adjective case forms:
*старем дай можене, младем знаене* (на старите дай можене, на младите знаене)

You can read more about it here:http://www.promacedonia.org/jchorb/st/st_2_b_izt_3.htm#smoljanski


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## DenisBiH

trosheniorasi said:


> Гранкя does exist, but it does not refer to a small branch. I think (and I am probably wrong) it is an example of a case or it's a variation in the dialect. I am having trouble thinking of a good example where гранкя would be used, this is the best I can come up with:
> Подай ми оную гранкю (Pass me this branch) vs У мъзето има некиква гранкя (There is some branch in the basement).



Thank you!  Your example is exactly what I needed, i.e. which form would be used in the context where BCS would use nominative.


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## trosheniorasi

DenisBiH said:


> Thank you!  Your example is exactly what I needed, i.e. which form would be used in the context where BCS would use nominative.



Does nominative mean naming the object? In that case definitely гранкя. 

Е на тва му се казуе гранкя! (That's what I call a branch!)


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## DenisBiH

trosheniorasi said:


> Does nominative mean naming the object? In that case definitely гранкя.
> 
> Е на тва му се казуе гранкя! (That's what I call a branch!)



I'm not sure how to explain the functions of nominative; it is the "neutral" case, used for example for the subject of a sentence, as opposed to accusative used for the object. In your case it seems that гранкя (~BCS _grana_) is nominative, and гранкю (~ BCS _granu_) is accusative. Some examples where we would use nominative:

_This branch is dirty.
This is my branch.
There is a branch on the table._


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## trosheniorasi

DenisBiH said:


> Some examples where we would use nominative:
> 
> _This (small) branch is dirty.
> This is my (small) branch.
> There is a (small) branch on the table._



Yes, гранкя would be used in all three cases actually, but it does not refer to a "small" branch.
So how would you say there is a (regular sized) branch on the table.

На масуту има гранкя/There is a branch on the table (NOT SMALL).


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## DenisBiH

trosheniorasi said:


> Yes, гранкя would be used in all three cases actually, but it does not refer to a "small" branch.
> So how would you say there is a (regular sized) branch on the table.
> 
> На масуту има гранкя/There is a branch on the table (NOT SMALL).



Sorry, I keep repeating the same mistake. 

For regular-sized branch we use _grana _(acc. _granu_); _grančica _(acc. _grančicu_) is diminutive.

_Na stolu je grana.
Grana je na stolu.
_(but _ima _could also be used in certain contexts).

Btw, _масуту _is interesting; is that perhaps a Romance loanword? How would you say:

_The table is dirty.
I broke the table._


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## trosheniorasi

DenisBiH said:


> Sorry, I keep repeating the same mistake.
> 
> For regular-sized branch we use _grana _(acc. _granu_); _grančica _(acc. _grančicu_) is diminutive.
> 
> _Na stolu je grana.
> Grana je na stolu.
> _(but _ima _could also be used in certain contexts).
> 
> Btw, _масуту _is interesting; is that perhaps a Romance loanword? What is the nominative form?



In Torlakian you can say гранчица/цу, for a very tiny branch, but it would sound funny.


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## iobyo

Are there actually Torlakian dialects that have definite accusative paradigms (_мачкуту_)?

The dialect of Kumanovo is usually included in the Torlakian group but it doesn't have the definite article: _подај ми гу гранку_.


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## DenisBiH

This discussion has reminded me of a (folk?) song that a Pomak posted once on a Bosnian forum. Looking at it now there are cases in it too, it seems. I hope it's not too long or off-topic to post it here?

А,я леле,запалило съй Босно ле Сарайово,
я леле,йот край до край- горе ле до Софи*е*.
А,я леле,гора ми гори-синь ми зилен пламень,
я леле,та ней било синь ми ли зилен пламинь,
я леле,ми льо й било Чума ле Безрядница .

А,я леле,ручок и гответ петстотина ле дечица,
я леле,дечицатъ съ на йотбор-йотбрани,
я леле,дечицатъ съ на приберь ли прибрани.

А,я леле,южина и гответ шестотина дивойки,,
я леле,дивойкити съ на йотбор-йотбрани,
я леле,дивойкити съ н априбер ли прибрани.

А,я леле,вечеря й гответ седямстотина юна*къ*,
я леле,юнацито съ на йотбор-йотбрани,
я леле,юнацито съ нa прибер ли прибрани.

А,я леле,та пъ ни съ йе Чума ли,бре,наела,
я леле,та па йе зьла един син ли на маи*къ*,
я леле,та па йе зьла един син ли на ба*щъ*.

А,я леле,май*къ* му лю*ту* ли,бре, кальняши:
- Си*ну* ли,пуста да йостани Чума ли Безрядница,
си*ну* ли,що та изяди мла*ду* ли ем зиле*ну*!

А,я леле,па той на май*къ* тийо ли изговори:
- Май*ку* ли нимой си кальни Чума ли Безрядница
майку ли,льо си кальни Ислям ми ли бирберя,
майку ли,що мо устави чамбаз ли на главата,
маику ли, та да са пилет църни ли люти змии.

Please correct me if these are not cases but something else.


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## Vulcho

Майкъ, люту, младу, зилену look like simple vowel reduction.
Сину, майку are vocative forms, but vocative survives in all dialects.
Софие is most likely not case form either, but a phonetic variant of София.


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## osemnais

To me that song looks quite inconsistent, the bolded vowel could be either cases or reduced, but then there are words in the text such as на главата, also зилен плам*е*нь and on the next line зилен плам*и*нь. They may indeed be cases, since there is no reduction where one would expect if there is (eg запалило instead of запалилу), but then again the song is inconsistent.


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## sokol

Please don't forget that 'Torlakian' usually refers to the transitional dialects spoken in Serbia; trosheniorasi: your example was from related Bulgarian dialects, I take it?

Whatever be the case  I have no deeper knowledge of the transitional dialects between Serbian mainland (Shumadija) and Bulgarian dialects, but I do know that declension decreases 'gradually' through the region of Serbian Torlakian dialects - i. e., in the north-westernmost Serbian Torlakian regions some cases still are used, and the further you go east and south the less cases are used (in less situations); I know this is difficult to imagine - so an example, this means that probably (this is a *fictional *example, I do not know if it does exist in any dialect at all!) e. g. dative could still be in use in all situations demanding dative in Serbian in the northwestern region while in central Torlakian dative only might be used with a very few prepositions, and in the southeast only in a very few phrases and poverbs, and further south not at all.

So the answer would be yes, there are Torlakian dialects where some cases are still used, but I do not know where the actual borderline between very marginal case use and no case use at all lies - it might be on Serbian territory or on Bulgarian territory, you tell me.


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## Arath

sokol said:


> Please don't forget that 'Torlakian' usually refers to the transitional dialects spoken in Serbia; trosheniorasi: your example was from related Bulgarian dialects, I take it?
> 
> Whatever be the case  I have no deeper knowledge of the transitional dialects between Serbian mainland (Shumadija) and Bulgarian dialects, but I do know that declension decreases 'gradually' through the region of Serbian Torlakian dialects - i. e., in the north-westernmost Serbian Torlakian regions some cases still are used, and the further you go east and south the less cases are used (in less situations); I know this is difficult to imagine - so an example, this means that probably (this is a *fictional *example, I do not know if it does exist in any dialect at all!) e. g. dative could still be in use in all situations demanding dative in Serbian in the northwestern region while in central Torlakian dative only might be used with a very few prepositions, and in the southeast only in a very few phrases and poverbs, and further south not at all.
> 
> So the answer would be yes, there are Torlakian dialects where some cases are still used, but I do not know where the actual borderline between very marginal case use and no case use at all lies - it might be on Serbian territory or on Bulgarian territory, you tell me.



The Torlakian dialects on Bulgarian territory have an accusative case which is used in all situations except when Nominative and Vocative are used, in other words it is used for the direct compliment of a verb and after all prepositions. They also have a dative case which is used only for the indirect compliment of a verb (never after prepositions) and only with personal names and animate nouns. Many other Bulgarian dialects (including eastern ones) are/used to be the same. Even in standard Bulgarian, one can find many examples of accusative and dative forms in proverbs, fixed expressions, folk songs and old literature.


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## sokol

That's interesting, and as much as I suspected, thanks for clarifying!


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## Duya

Arath said:


> The Torlakian dialects on Bulgarian territory have an accusative case which is used in all situations except when Nominative and Vocative are used, in other words it is used for the direct compliment of a verb and after all prepositions.



Thus, it may well be referred to as _oblique case_. And indeed, Wikipedia article on the subject mentions Bulgarian as an example of language having an oblique case, although -- just as English -- only in conjunction with personal pronouns.


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## Arath

Duya said:


> Thus, it may well be referred to as _oblique case_. And indeed, Wikipedia article on the subject mentions Bulgarian as an example of language having an oblique case, although -- just as English -- only in conjunction with personal pronouns.


We are probably going off-topic but I'm not going to leave potential readers with a false impression. Given the definition of Oblique case in Wikipedia, Bulgarian pronouns don't have an oblique case. They have nominative, accusative, dative and prepositional.


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