# EN: dit-il - type clauses



## Zone

These kind of clauses are frequent in written French. I wonder: is there a set rule to translate them into English.

I know English people will rather write "..." _he/she said_, rather than _said he/she.

_However, does the same rule apply when using a forename, or a forename plus a name?


=> "We could have done it much better" said John Smith with regret.
=> "We could have done it much better" John Smith said with regret
=> "We could have done it much better" said John with regret
=> "We could have done it much better" John said with regret
Among those suggestions, which are the correct ones. For some reason I'm tempted to choose 1 and 4 but I'm not sure.

Any ideas?


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## nouvellerin

To my eye, these are all correct; the presence or absence of Smith does not change the order of words.


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## Tim~!

They're all perfect.

All children's books seem to use "responded/answered/said the boy", and we continue to use the structure in every-day English too.

The only time that I think you couldn't is when you're using subject pronouns (I, he etc), in which case we tend to use "I said, he said", but for other cases (John, the boy, the cat) you can feel free to take your pick


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## Zone

Thank you


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## BillyTheBanana

Tim~! said:


> All children's books seem to use "responded/answered/said the boy", and we continue to use the structure in every-day English too.


I would find it very unusual if someone used the "___ said" pattern in everyday speech. I would expect to hear

He said, "...
The teacher said, "...
etc.

Or even more informally (although probably what I say most often):

He was like, "...
The teacher was like, "...


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## nouvellerin

The original post was about written language; but yes, I agree that I would not say "'blablah...' said the teacher." I believe it's the same in French though, you don't say "'machinmachin ...' a dit le prof."


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## Carl75

My sister is learning English and asks me if there a rule regarding the following sentences:

1rst example:
"I want to read also", says the little dog.

2nd example
"My dear friends" she says...

Question is there a rule to put the verb before or after the subject?

Thank you very much


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## aztlaniano

Either way is valid. 
"I want to read", says the dog. The dog says: "I want to read".


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## Mikebo

aztlaniano said:


> Either way is valid.
> "I want to read", says the dog. The dog says: "I want to read".


Ces exemples ne répondent pas à la question.

carl75 veut savoir pourquoi on dit "says the dog" et non pas "the dog says" au même temps qu'on dit "she says" et non pas "says she".

@carl75
Une première explication (partielle):

Dans les exemples que tu as donnés, tu verras que, le sujet du 1er est une phrase nominale tandis que celui du 2ième est un simple pronom.

Je voudrais savoir, d'alleurs, si tu parles de la langue parlée ou écrite?


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## aztlaniano

It's also possible to write:
My dear friends", says she... (As well as "she says".)
Also: "I want to read", the little dog says.

_...says she, _or _says the dog_ sounds literary and a bit archaic. 

For a children's story, using "_says the dog/she_" (instead of "_the dog/she says_"), seems appropriate.
It is not normal, everyday usage, however.


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## Tim~!

I don't agree.

If a pronoun is involved, it seems to me that this comes first and isn't naturally invertible.

_'"XYZ", she says'_ is fine, whereas _'"XYZ", says she' _seems totally unnatural to me.

If a pronoun isn't involved, both ways seem possible and sound natural.


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## Moon Palace

I reckon it is not the most common usage, but I have already encountered "_said he"_ in literary texts, and I would believe it is a specific stylistic device. Here are two examples I have found: 



> "Now", said he, "if you teach that nigger (speaking of myself) how to read..."


(The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass)



> "Oh," said he, tossing his little head, "I have only been giving those young people a lesson..."



(Black Beauty)

Unless it has to do with the fact that the introductory verb is used in the middle of direct speech?


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## Tim~!

Hmm ... 

Both of those were written in the nineteenth century, so it could just be the case that it's older styling.

All I know is that using a pronoun after the verb comes across as sounding strange to my 21st century ears.  Change the pronoun to something else ("John", "the man") and I'd be perfectly happy with inversion, which I probably use more often than not anyway


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## Moon Palace

I don't think it is commonplace indeed, but there are few examples even in twentieth-century literature: 


> "It's a good dinner", said he, and commenced to eat.


(The Crock of Gold, James Stephen, 1912)

I willingly admit though that it is getting less and less common.


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## Tim~!

What is really good about that sentence is that it appears archaic anyway, since it has "commenced _to_" rather than "commenced _-ing_" 

I think we ultimately agree in what we're saying


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## Carl75

Thank you very much for your precious help. Actually my sister is using an old English method for children. It could explain the archaism.


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## Bluebambi

Totally agree that "said he" or "said she" is more archaic and would sound a bit out of place in common day usage but it's not gramatically incorrect.


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