# why are French people supposedly rude?



## übermönch

"French people are rude" - I've heared that a couple of times from americans, for instance when choosing a target for travel and even on this very forum when choosing which language to learn


Falcons508 said:


> Im more interested in learning Italian because I heard French people are very rude. My parents agreed with that too.


for instance. I'm quite shocked by that, especially since I had the opposite experience in France.

So, do you think French people are rude?
If you do, why?


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## judkinsc

It's not that the French are rude...they're actually quite polite.  It's just that Americans are use to people not ignoring them as they walk around, and they call this rude, whereas the French call it polite or normal.
If you ask a Frenchman for help, he's usually quite nice about it; assuming you're polite to him.


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## emma42

I have heard quite a few stories from Americans about the "rudeness" of the French, and vice versa. I really think this is an issue about cultural misunderstanding and that neither "race" is ruder than the other! For example, it is quite usual in America (and the UK) to enter a shop and just look around, without greeting the assistant. I understand that in France, generally, this is considered very rude, and that greetings are extremely important.


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## Nunty

I have an American parent and spent my adolescence and young adulthood in the US. For the past several years, I've been a member of a francophone monastery, where over 3/4 of the nuns are French. *They *think I am extraordinarily rude. *I *think they are rude beyond belief. I don't know why this should be. <puts on thinking cap>

Part of the issue may be that much of French politeness is expressed through words, extensive use of the subjunctive, for instance, and the ubiquitous "on", whereas politeness in USan terms is expressed much more in the nonverbal realm.

All that's just supposition of course. <removes thinking cap... hurts m' head>


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## emma42

I  think you have something there, Nun.  I have also heard that in France it is considered polite to interrupt during conversations, thus showing that you are fully engaged.  This is, of course, considered very rude by other cultures.


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## Vanda

> I think you have something there, Nun. I have also heard that in France it is considered polite to interrupt during conversations, thus showing that you are fully engaged. This is, of course, considered very rude by other cultures.


 
In my country we expect the person to interrupt us to show they are engaged in the communication. See? I think it is all about culture, how we perceive the others according to our own culture. That's why this forum is an amazing source of learning about others and helping us not jumping on conclusion about others' behavior.


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## french4beth

Also, if you directly translate certain statements from French to English, they can sound like commands and thus could be interpreted as being rude (the imperative form). Also, in the US, we tend to smile a lot, whereas in other cultures, people don't smile as much but are in perfectly good moods and are quite content (so this could be misinterpreted).  And unfortunately, some Americans automatically expect everyone to speak to them in English (regardless of what country they are in); such arrogance is maddening, and I could see why foreigners would be curt with such narrow-minded travelers.

Also, personal distance varies from country to country - some people can be offended if you stand too close or too far away from them, or people could be offended by too much or too little physical contact (touching an arm, hugging, etc.).

The concept of customer service in stores, etc., in the US is that the customer is always right, and expects to be waited on immediately, greeted upon arrival, etc. I haven't yet been to France, but I believe customers are allowed to wander around a bit, etc.  And if you arrive at a US store near closing time, the store will generally try to accomodate you (within reason). When I lived in Quebec, people knew not to try and enter a store within 15-20 minutes of closing time because they would be told that the store was closing, etc.

As mentioned above, each culture is different - no one is better or worse than the other, just different.


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## Hakro

France is the only country where a native has turned his back to me when I have pronounced incorrectly his language. This has happened twice, but these are the only expressions of "rudeness" I have met in France.

On the other hand, the "politeness" of the Americans is not always what it seems to be. A friend of mine told that when he was living in the US, a supermarket cashier could say to him: "Hello, how are you today?" and if my friend told that today he feels awful, everything sucks etc. the usual answer would be: "That's great! Have a nice day!" The cashier seemed to be polite but she never listened a word. My friend told me that this is typical American.


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## DDT

emma42 said:


> I  think you have something there, Nun.  I have also heard that in France it is considered polite to interrupt during conversations, thus showing that you are fully engaged.  This is, of course, considered very rude by other cultures.


mmmmmhhh...not in the France I've been living during last years  



Hakro said:


> France is the only country where a native has turned his back to me when I have pronounced incorrectly his language. This has happened twice, but these are the only expressions of "rudeness" I have met in France.
> 
> On the other hand, the "politeness" of the Americans is not always what it seems to be. A friend of mine told that when he was living in the US, a supermarket cashier could say to him: "Hello, how are you today?" and if my friend told that today he feels awful, everything sucks etc. the usual answer would be: "That's great! Have a nice day!" The cashier seemed to be polite but she never listened a word. My friend told me that this is typical American.


You make me think of a very important thing: you can never generalize. You will bump into very kind/rude/deep/superficial people all over the world. So it will basically depend on your attitude and on your...chance  

DDT


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## Thomas F. O'Gara

Hakro:

Americans' lack of attention to what they are being told in "polite" situations is legendary.  Being married to foreigner (a Russian) has made me extremely sensitive to this.

However, to not digress and to get to the original subject of this thread, I've found that the French are always accomodating, as long as you speak French.  Accomodating without either being overwhelming or ignoring you, an attitude which I find very comfortable and which I admire them for.


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## french4beth

Hakro said:


> On the other hand, the "politeness" of the Americans is not always what it seems to be. A friend of mine told that when he was living in the US, a supermarket cashier could say to him: "Hello, how are you today?" and if my friend told that today he feels awful, everything sucks etc. the usual answer would be: "That's great! Have a nice day!" The cashier seemed to be polite but she never listened a word. My friend told me that this is typical American.


That can be true - people may ask "How are you?" in the US but they really _don't want to know_, or don't want to get too many details... This can be regional, though - a former coworker from Florida said that it could take an hour just to shop for a few groceries - if someone you knew asked "How are you?" you were expected to give full disclosure! 

One thing I find annoying is when I greet a salesclerk when I enter a store; then, 5 minutes later, when I arrive at the register, the same person will say,"Hi, how are you?" yet again  even though I'm the only customer in the entire store...


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## Julito_Maraña

übermönch said:


> So, do you think French people are rude?
> If you do, why?



To discourage people from invading them?

I had the same pleasant experience as you in France. I've been there three times, and although I did run into some rude *individuals*, over all, I found people to be helpful, pleasant, and polite.

In a sick distorted way, I kind of want that stereotype of the rude French to survive. If those peope who believe it avoid France, there's more room for me next Spring, and shorter lines at the museums.


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## Lusitania

I've been several times in France in general and people have been very nice to me always. Very very nice. I think that it's stereotyping.


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## maxiogee

Ah, I see.
When reading the thread's title I misplaced the emphasis, and misunderstood the use of the word "supposed" —> I was seeing it in the sense of "The police are supposed to keep the peace." 
I was going to answer, "I suppose they must have applied for the job!"


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## Insider

I don't consider French people are rude. Even more, I believe in their helpfulness whenever someone is needed it. But I had some unpleasant expieremce regarding French people during my staying in one English School in Britian. Those group of young French people, teenagers I would like to say, who participated there, as well, behaved in impolite way, and even didn't have enough knowledge to communicate in English. However, I'm thinking that sometimes you can easily meet people whom you wouldn't like or who wouldn't like you. It's quite normal in our life.


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## Thomas1

übermönch said:


> "French people are rude" - I've heared that a couple of times from americans, for instance when choosing a target for travel and even on this very forum when choosing which language to learn
> 
> for instance. I'm quite shocked by that, especially since I had the opposite experience in France.
> 
> So, do you think French people are rude?
> If you do, why?


I am happy I can refute this stereotype.  I've been to France twice and, generally, people whom I met there (especially this year) were very kind and polite. During my first stay I had some problems with comming across especially in small towns since my French was really poor and found it quite strange when a receptionist in a good hotel couldn't speak a word in English, nonetheless, this dosn't mean he didn't want to help; strangers whom I met there were very eager to help me in situations when I needed some assistance. There are of course exceptions as everywhere but this shouldn't eclipse the picture of all French people.


Tom


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## se16teddy

I once went to Paris with a friend who had lots of rings in his ears, nose, eyebrows etc; I think his hair was dyed red at the time too. In the underground in London on the way, everyone pretended not to notice his unusual appearance; but in the metro in Paris nobody was afraid to gawp. He perceived this as rudeness, though it might be interepreted as differing attitudes to personal space or eccentricity too. 

I have had a similar experience with going topless. If you take your shirt off on even a slightly balmy day in London, nobody bats an eyelid. If you take your shirt off in Paris, everbody around you has a good laugh!


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## Bonjules

Hola,
the stereotype, which seems to be perceived more by Americans than by other Europeans exists, I beleive, for 2 reasons(among others):

1. Restaurants and waiters. At least in Paris, where most people go, waiters seem to have little time or patience with folks who don't know exactly what they want or can not express it well. Quite a shock for americans who are used to a young lady with a big smile greeting them with a 'how are you today'? Well.. maybe not so much in NYC....(Not, as was pointed out, that she would really like to know..)
2. If one can generalize a little, it is probably true that the French are
more proud of their language and culture than most countries. That also
seems to translate int a certain expectation that visitors should have some level of understanding of and interst in the same. With Americans
it seems to me a little of a difficult, mixed bag: While many French are
fascinated by aspects of the 'West", Amercan habits and popular culture,
they are also aware that despite the wealth and resources of the country
few (measured against the ## of high school, college graduates and the population in general)Americans make serious efforts to learn about other cultures and languages.
On a personal level, especially when you get to know someone a little
you would be hard pressed to find more rudeness on average than with
anybody else. Probably to the contrary.


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## Cracker Jack

I don't find French people rude.  In fact they are chaleureuses or warm and accommodating.  There are no longer these stereotype French who will speak French even though you don't know a word when you talk to them.  From the airport to the rural areas, you can always ask almost anyone for information.

Even in tourist spots, if you try to speak French and they detect that you have difficulty expressing yourself, they will even ask you if you speak English just to spare you the effort.  Although they would prefer to speak French.  However, if the queue is getting longer, the quickest way is to say it in English.

Also they are most polite that they would often address you as ''vous'' and the always start and end conversation with a greeting such as ''Bonjour, merci, à tout à l'heure, Je vous en prie, etc.  And one thing more, they are paragon of politesse, such that their tone of voice is just as courteous.


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## rsweet

I agree with most of the foreros in this thread that the French are different, but not particularly rude in France. What about the French on vacation or abroad? Is there a Jekyll & Hyde thing that occurs when you transport a normally amiable French person to a Club Med in Cancun?


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## Joelline

The first time I went to France, I decided that the French were among the rudest people in the world. They seemed to stand much too close, invading my personal space and making me feel very uncomfortable. But their worst "fault" was staring! When you're a 20-year-old American girl in Paris for the first time, sitting in a métro car, minding your own business and the woman or man directly across from you stares at you, unblinking, for minutes at a time, you want to curl up, spit up, or sock him or her! 

As I matured (and figured out, finally, that the French don't think it's rude to stare), I've changed my mind. I think people in general, y compris les français, are as polite to you as you are to them. 

Joelline


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## maxiogee

Joelline said:


> The first time I went to France, I decided that the French were among the rudest people in the world. They seemed to stand much too close, invading my personal space and making me feel very uncomfortable. But their worst "fault" was staring! When you're a 20-year-old American girl in Paris for the first time, sitting in a métro car, minding your own business and the woman or man directly across from you stares at you, unblinking, for minutes at a time, you want to curl up, spit up, or sock him or her!
> 
> As I matured (and figured out, finally, that the French don't think it's rude to stare), I've changed my mind. I think people in general, y compris les français, are as polite to you as you are to them.
> 
> Joelline



Did it not occur to you at the time that, as the visitor to their country, you were the one who needed to adjust your attitudes and behaviours?

I find it strange that people object to the behaviour of people in their own countries. Does 'going abroad' not bring with it an awareness that one is about to encounter a different culture? I remember my first trip abroad, with the Boy Scouts at a very tender age when we were informed that we were the outsiders, that behaviour we thought acceptable at home might raise eyebrows there - and that this applied in reverse, that we should not object to a different way of deportment there.


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## Nunty

I trust it won't be considered off topic at this juncture to mention a wonderful  definition of politeness. Being polite is no more or less than not making the person you are with feel uncomfortable.


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## badgrammar

rsweet said:


> I agree with most of the foreros in this thread that the French are different, but not particularly rude in France. What about the French on vacation or abroad? Is there a Jekyll & Hyde thing that occurs when you transport a normally amiable French person to a Club Med in Cancun?



Very interesting question that might merit a new thread - the French (generalizing, of course) are AWFUL travelers!  They love to travel, but spend most of their time in foreign lands complaining about the food, the services, the lodgings and the prices. 

It is not that they are rude, per say, it is just a cultural fluke that is nothing new.  If I remember correctly, Montesquieu was already talking about the phenomenon when he wrote his "Lettres Persanes"...

If you have ever been in a plane full of French people returning from any foreign destination (especialy on Air F, where they are greeted with mini bottle of pastis, champagne and French newspapers/video programs), you have witnessed the shared and mutual elation/relief/joy/ as they come together for the trip home, savoring the return to the world they know.

Sorry to get off topic, but the French travel about as well as a tuna sandwich with mayo on flimsy white bread !


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## Lusitania

Hakro said:


> France is the only country where a native has turned his back to me when I have pronounced incorrectly his language. This has happened twice, but these are the only expressions of "rudeness" I have met in France.


 
I also had a situation on the subway once. I was speaking in portuguese with a friend and a man came to us and said "In France speak French". I believe he thought we were migrants. It's bound to happen when societies start to fear migrants when they become too visible. The fear of difference. 
However, this was an isolated case. Also I think that it has to do with the fact that French is loosing ground to other languages and it's becoming less spoken.


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## Sallyb36

I've only ever had lovely experiences in France, from age 14 when i went on a school exchange to the last time I went a few years ago.  I always attempted to speak to people in French (which improved over the years), (and has deteriorated recently with lack of use!) and always met with patience and kindness.  When I was 14 the man in the local boulangerie used to call me la petite Jeanne D'arc.


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## badgrammar

Bonjour Lusitania, 

Whoever said that to you was, first and foremost, a xenophobic idiot.  Unfortunately, xenophobic idiots are found the world over, this one just happened to be French.  Rest assured, that sort of comment is not common and would be considered rude and distasteful by 99.9% of French people.  As you said it's an isoated experience.  Atleast I hope so or I need to move... 



Lusitania said:


> I also had a situation on the subway once. I was speaking in portuguese with a friend and a man came to us and said "In France speak French". I believe he thought we were migrants. It's bound to happen when societies start to fear migrants when they become too visible. The fear of difference.
> However, this was an isolated case. Also I think that it has to do with the fact that French is loosing ground to other languages and it's becoming lesse spoken.


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## Lusitania

Yes, I was also very surprised to see that many French employers, as they had many portuguese employees did care to take portuguese lessons to speak their employees language. Outstanding! I was very well impressed. People were nice and kind in general. When I think of a nice time abroad, I think Paris. I enjoyed it very much.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

If you don't mind, here is a confession from a French girl: yes, I'm supposed to be rude! 
I'm rude when I interrupt people talking to me (to agree, encourage, or quickly disabuse them)
I'm rude when touching their arm when speaking (trying to be welcoming),
I'm rude when speaking very loud as if I'm quarrelling (just speaking with passion),
I'm rude when looking at someone in the parisian Métro (they look strange, funny or just nice),
I'm rude when not smiling all day long and so I don't seem to have a cheerfull character (I'm always smiling inside, only smiling outside with real friends),
I'm rude when not getting a word because of someone really bad French accent (even if sometimes I'm trying very hard to understand them),
I'm rude when abroad because I can found something not totally great whereas I'm the stranger (everybody would find everything marvellous, why not me?),
...etc
I'm rude even when thinking I'm not rude! 
Are there cultural discrepancies or am I a total alien?


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## Benjy

badgrammar said:


> Very interesting question that might merit a new thread - the French (generalizing, of course) are AWFUL travelers!  They love to travel, but spend most of their time in foreign lands complaining about the food, the services, the lodgings and the prices.
> 
> .....
> 
> 
> Sorry to get off topic, but the French travel about as well as a tuna sandwich with mayo on flimsy white bread !



The irony is almost more than I can bear. We are here in a thread almost collectively having a bash about anything and everything which they do when we are visiting them which is different to our own culture, and then we start on them being bad travellers


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## badgrammar

Oh, no, I'm not visiting, I live here  !  And while I would not say the French are intrinsically rude by any stretch of the imagination when they are here in France, I think that changes when they travel...

The perceived French rudeness is just a matter of cultural conventions and tourists sometimes not knowing the proper procedure to elicit the polit response they were looking for (ie saying. Bonjour, Madame)


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## cuchuflete

French people are not rude.  

If anyone travels enough in their own country or another country for long enough, the odds are fair that a rude person will be met.  That doesn't justify a stereotype, or a collection of anecdotes about the one or two times such a person has been encountered, much less attributing general rudeness to a group or nation based on an isolated experience.  

Sorry for the off-topic rant, but it grows tiresome reading so many posts and threads about a baseless myth.

Here, as a reminder to myself, is the thread title:
*why are French people supposed to be rude?*

Probably the answer is that some not very well educated, grumpy travelers, who didn't bother to learn to say "Merci", or buy a guidebook, were treated as they deserved, and complained about it.  "Supposed to be...." does not equate to "are".


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## ElaineG

I had a long post in another thread, which I can't find, in which I said that I find the manners of Parisians -- hurried, brusque, busy, but generous when appealed to -- to be much like those of New Yorkers.

For many foreign travelers who don't get beyond Paris, this brusque busy-ness could be interpreted as rude.  

One aspect of this, I think is, is switching over to English in an effort _to be helpful while saving time.  _This may strike the tentative beginning French speaker as a rude dis on his/her language abilities, but I (and my fellow New Yorkers) do it all the time. If I see a French or Italian tourist struggling - I'm likely to leap in in their native language: It's let's cut to the chase, we are all busy and stressed by urban life, and if I can speak to you in your native language I can help you get where you're going without taking all day to do it.

So in sum, I find Parisians to be much like NYers -- sometimes impatient/bored/overwhelmed with tourists (why are you mooning about in the Metro/subway blocking my way when _I need to get to work_? can't I enjoy my own museums/shops/restaurants without a bunch of buffoons who _take up space, cause lines, etc_.) but with a heart of gold underneath for those truly in need.  

Since that's all of France many tourists see, they think it's all like that.  In the provinces of course, I've found a much slower pace of life, and less urban brusqueness.


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## badgrammar

My parents were just here to visit and my Mom had a brush with this "rudeness" which I believe is linked to many of the factors listed in Elaine's post above.  She knows a little French and uses it any time she can.  She knows the rules abut saying "bonjour Madame/Monsieur" and would never forget such politenesses as "s'il vous plaît" and "merci".  

Anywho, she was looking for a street and went up to someone and asked him "S'il vous plaît, connaissez-vous rue Machin?".  The man just looked at her and said "Oui."  The he walked away! 

She thought it quite funny, but still kind of a slap in the face when you're doing your best to follow the rules and speak the language.  Oh well.  Some folks are just jerks, or tired, or busy, or sick of tourists.  Agreed that most have a heart of gold for those truly in need.


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## geve

Is this the thread you were thinking about Elaine? 


badgrammar said:


> And while I would not say the French are intrinsically rude by any stretch of the imagination when they are here in France, I think that changes when they travel...


I'm afraid this tourist thing is not specific to French people... Everyone behaves differently in a foreign country, regardless of their nationality, and travelling in group only seems to make it worse. At least, that's how it _appears_ to external viewers.
To illustrate my point... The following is NOT a reflect of my own opinion, but things that are often said about tourists of various nationalities: 
_Germans: they drink beer on Spanish beaches and get sunburnt. __British: they drink beer and get sunburnt on any beach of the globe (only they have the good sense to not do both at the same time ). __Japanese: always travelling in buses - stopping very briefly at every monument worth seeing, just the time to take a picture. __US Americans: they wear shorts and talk loudly._

Of course, you'll always find some examples that fit the caricature. I know I've been ashamed by French tourists' behaviour while travelling - the one I mentioned in this thread for instance. But I've always assumed (maybe I was wrong!) that not _all_ Germans spent their holidays drinking beer while getting sunburnt. It's just that this kind of people are more noticeable!! Duh. 

Entendu récemment dans la bouche de Français de retour de vacances : _"Dans notre hôtel il y avait un groupe d'Anglais qui passaient leurs journées entières au bord de la piscine. Même pas à la plage - à la piscine ! J'ai pas l'impression qu'ils aient fait une seule visite de toute la semaine. De toute façon, les Anglais en voyage ils sont toujours comme ça."_
Sorry, but this last sentence (all English tourists are the same) makes me cringe. It seems that we human beings can't just narrate a fact. We have to draw conclusions and enunciate definitive statements. That's what makes us intelligent creatures. 

Oh well. Maybe somewhere in a galaxy far far away there is a forum similar to this one, and someone just posted this thread:
_Why are earthlings supposed to be idiot?_




_- - - - Because they are!_ might reply someone who went to Earth on holidays and indeed met a few idiots.


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## badgrammar

Points taken, Geve...  But I still think it interesting to look back to the writings of Montesquieu on the subject oh so many years ago.  I'll have to pull up some of the more interesting of his writings about les français en voyage from the Les Lettres Persanes when I get a moment (faut faire à manger maintenant )!


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## geve

You can quote Montesquieu, I still won't like generalizations! 
I would also hazard a guess that French tourists of todays aren't quite the same as those of the XVIIIth century. 

Besides, what you describe as rudeness of the French tourists...


badgrammar said:


> They love to travel, but spend most of their time in foreign lands complaining about the food, the services, the lodgings and the prices.


...seems to me to be in line with the ranting habit of the French! See the thread about Stereotypes on French people. 




cuchuflete said:


> [...] attributing general rudeness to a group or nation based on an isolated experience.


Is the contrary true? Can a positive isolated experience change someone's general perception of a group?


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## KaRiNe_Fr

As far as I remember, Montesquieu pointed out the ridiculous of such a generalization, asking "Comment peut-on être Persan ?" (how could you be persan?) into his "Lettres persanes", showing what you are criticizing is often what you are doing yourself... Or maybe I should reread them?


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## cuchuflete

geve said:


> Is the contrary true? Can a positive isolated experience change someone's general perception of a group?



Faulty logic in service of a good cause?  Yes, it can.


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## Markus

My opinion on the matter is that the French are not rude -- on the contrary, they're too polite for their own good. They're so polite, in fact, that they have a strict set of rules of politesse for what phrases should be said with a person in any given situation (Bonjour Madame -- au revoir). Therefore, when foreigners visit and they do not know these rules, some French people become offended and the foreigner thinks they are being rude. Yes, it's true that people should make an effort to learn a bit of the culture before visiting a country, but I don't know of any culture that is more sticky about it than the French one.

This is not the _only_ issue, of course. As other people mentioned, there are also cultural misunderstandings such as where an anglosaxon will expect a smile and the French person sees no reason to give one, or a French person thinks they are being polite by not intruding on the tourist looking at a map helplessly, and the tourist just desperately wants someone to ask them if they need help.


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## geve

cuchuflete said:


> Faulty logic in service of a good cause? Yes, it can.


But, but, don't you see how big this is?? It means that *one single person* *can change the world!!!!* (well, the world as it perceived by some, if you care for the nuance  )

Next time I hold the door, I'll remember I'm doing it for my country.


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## badgrammar

I'm sure you are all quite right, and indeed generalizing is not usually helpful - but I think it is human nature to need to classify things - be they objects, people or cultures - in order to grasp the vast wrld around us.

Truly, no offense intended, just simple observations that are, as stated in my very first post, generalizations...  And if you look at the title of this thread, that is what we are addressing here "French people are supposedly rude". The question is about stereotypes, so I'd have a hard time steering around them . If you've read my posts for a while you'll know that I'm not exactly the lock-them-in-a category-and-don't-let them-out type, so perhaps you'll grant me the benefit of a doubt...  Yes, râler is very French, but then that's a stereotye, too...

As per Montesquieu, it's been a while since I read it, I am going from memory, and should surely read it again before developing the idea.  Très fatiguée, devrait faire dodo...  Bonne nuit à toutes et à tous!


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## geve

Yes, the need to classify things is fairly common, and as much as I dislike generalizations, being human I don't always put into practice what I advocate. And stereotypes are funny things to play with, when you take them for what they are.
So no, no offense taken, et bonne nuit!


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## Seana

If I could change this title I would write *French people are extremly polite.* I have visited Paris and Bretagne this summer and I am enjoyed my time in there and I fell in love with them ( the city and countrysite)...Yes indeed, they are great, friendly and helpful, especially people in countrysite. There were really nice moments for me... It was amazing.
Everywhere they had patience for me to comunicate. I met people with fluent English even though I was warned that they often refused using the this language.


Nun-Translator said:


> Part of the issue may be that much of French politeness is expressed through words,


I like their politeness expressed through their ( French) words.
What a wonderful this country is where you could hear such beautiful words:
bonjour Madame, merci Madame ...


emma42 said:


> enter a shop (...) without greeting the assistant. (...) in France, generally, this is considered very rude, and that greetings are extremely important.


Yes I could compare it because I went to London then, so it is true. And I have noticed British politeness as a little bit "cold" and maybe bit "stiff" but not exclusively. I met also warm and direct British people, even a few nice chatterboxes, what taking my horrible English, it wasn't easy experience.


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## mytwolangs

I have known a few French folks real life and I have a few online chat friends from France. My experience has always been good. 

French folks sometimes seem a little distant, but it is just their culture I guess. They are not as socially aggressive as Americans.


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## Nunty

I'll just pipe up here one more time. Our monastery is an international community, with nuns from North and South America, Northern Europe, the Mediterranean, the Middle East and, until recently, Asia. We all have different codes of politeness, different ways of expressing (or not expressing) feelings, and so one. What we all have in common is that we all feel that the others are not quite polite and that "we" have to make a special effort to understand "them".

If that isn't human nature, what is?

Oh, and to bring this marginally back on topic, I'll just remind everyone that we live in French about about 2/3 of the community is French.


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## maxiogee

I see the thread has been retitled —  Shame whoever did it got it wrong.

Should it not read "Why do some people believe the French are rude?"
I would drop the use of any derivative of 'suppose' which to me means to believe because of evidence or probability, but without knowledge or proof.

Those people (who are only 'some' people) who believe the French to be rude generally tend to lack any body of evidence - they have one or two personal anecdotes to recount based on rarely more than 5 French people they met once.

Is there any real point to this thread? Why are (insert any nation) supposed to be (insert your favourite prejudice)? Because of a lack of knowledge, a readiness to believe whatever twaddle someone told them, and the lack of an inquiring mind.


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## scotu

maxiogee said:


> I see the thread has been retitled — Shame whoever did it got it wrong.
> 
> Should it not read "Why do some people believe the French are rude?"
> I would drop the use of any derivative of 'suppose' which to me means to believe because of evidence or probability, but without knowledge or proof.
> 
> Those people (who are only 'some' people) who believe the French to be rude generally tend to lack any body of evidence - they have one or two personal anecdotes to recount based on rarely more than 5 French people they met once.
> 
> Is there any real point to this thread? Why are (insert any nation) supposed to be (insert your favourite prejudice)? Because of a lack of knowledge, a readiness to believe whatever twaddle someone told them, and the lack of an inquiring mind.


I agree with you, some see others through their own prejudice coloured spectacles. I believe that the fortunate people who lack the quality of rudness in themselves tend not to see rudness in others.


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## Lavinia.dNP

I've been living in Paris for 4 years now, and in 4 years, I haven't found a single friendly Parisian : it's impossible to try and make new friendships here. I tried several times to involve some co-workers in activities outside work, and every time the answer was the same : a plastified smile and "what a nice idea ! yes, i'dlike very much to come", and at the last minute "oh, i'm so sorry, but I can't come, I've got too much work to do". My last proposal was a concert starting at 8 PM, and at least 3 people said the same thing, and honestly I don't believe that they were all staying that late at the office. None of the people I proposed this concert to said honestly that they weren't interested.
This is the general attitude I found every single time I tried to propose something.
Considering this, do I have the permission to make another blanket statement saying that Parisians are haughty, standoffish and hypocrite ?

For those who said that they found french people very nice and welcoming, they are right, but my opinion is that french people are politely cold, which means that an attendant in a shop will say "bonjour madame" only because he/she's obliged to.
People may be willing to give directions if you ask them, but basically in Paris you are considered as a number people do just the basic things to avoid being considered rude, but nothing more, there's no real human approach.

Now I'd like to tell you about a strange french habit : every time they meet and every time they leave, French friends do "la bise" which means approaching cheek against cheek often without contact and saying "mwah" (which would mean a kiss), and this you have to do it alternatively on both cheeks 4 times (left, right, left, right) which I find a little ridiculous and quite annoying if you have to greet 2 dozen of friends. And if you don't do the 4 "air kisses" and, for instance, stop at 1 or 2, the person remains a bit disappointed!

As a Sicilian, I prefer the american hug, it looks less fake, and it's more pleasant than those stupid "air kisses".

Now I realize that I'm being a little rude myself, making these strong judgments, therefore, let me say that this is the way I personally see french people, but my opinion is strenghtened by 4 years in Paris, and I met many people who have my same opinion.

What do you think about it?


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## geve

Lavinia.dNP said:


> Considering this, do I have the permission to make another blanket statement saying that Parisians are haughty, standoffish and hypocrite ?


As I said in another thread: You have the right to say that your Parisian coworkers are haughty, standoffish and hypocrite. 

Is it something with your field of activity? Did you get involved in extra-professional activities (sport, art, volunteering...)? I understand that you find it difficult, I think generally speaking it's very hard to make friends when you arrive in a new city and know no one. When you're at school or university it's fine, you'll make friends easily, but when you're working it's harder. And indeed making friends at the office might be even harder in Paris than elsewhere in France. Maybe we separate work and private life more than anywhere else. There are ex-coworkers that I see more since they left the company - but then that's also because I don't see them all day long any more hence am not too fed up with them!  Still, the day before yesterday, I went to see a musical with current coworkers. 



Lavinia.dNP said:


> Now I'd like to tell you about a strange french habit : every time they meet and every time they leave, French friends do "la bise" which means approaching cheek against cheek often without contact and saying "mwah" (which would mean a kiss), and this you have to do it alternatively on both cheeks 4 times (left, right, left, right) which I find a little ridiculous and quite annoying if you have to greet 2 dozen of friends. And if you don't do the 4 "air kisses" and, for instance, stop at 1 or 2, the person remains a bit disappointed!
> 
> As a Sicilian, I prefer the american hug, it looks less fake, and it's more pleasant than those stupid "air kisses".


There are approximately 2 million people living in Paris; and 10,9 millions if you consider the whole Ile-de-France. You mustn't have met all of them, because the ones that I meet never ever kiss that funny way! Two kisses, one on each cheek (yes, on it, not on air). Now you might find it a ridiculous habit, but how is it rude?  
Personally I have difficulties hugging the American way people I don't know very well, or saying "love" casually as US Americans can do. It is a cultural difference, yes. They have their ways of doing and I have mine, but I wouldn't dare say which one is better.

To get back on the topic of this thread... Yes, Lavinia: generally speaking, Parisians are certainly the rudest of the French - no matter what your definition of "rude" is, BTW: Parisians are not the nicest French full stop, as has been said in other threads (let me remind everyone here that I live in Paris, in case you hadn't noticed the right corner of this post). Of course there's always the possibility that you'll find a few nice Parisians, but you shouldn't base your opinion on these exceptions.


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Lavinia.dNP said:


> [...] What do you think about it?


I think that it does not answer this thread question : why ? ...   Or maybe a little bit as you visited Paris and make generalizations of French people knowing only few parisian people.
Don't forget that Paris is only a piece of France, even if the biggest town, and doesn't stand for the whole France. And even if parisian can seem "colder" than those from humble towns it's something you can see in a lot of big towns all over the world.
For instance, here, "la bise" (only 2) are real mouth-cheek kisses.  This could also obviously be seen as a disgusting habit of rude people too. It all depends on the eye of the beholder, of course... 
Moreover if I were living in a foreign country for many years and never managed to make friends and go out with them on the evening after work, I would certainely wonder about my own behavior. I don't think I would draw a conclusion saying all the inhabitants of this country are rude!


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## JamesM

Seana said:


> If I could change this title I would write *French people are extremly polite.* I have visited Paris and Bretagne this summer and I am enjoyed my time in there and I fell in love with them ( the city and countrysite)...Yes indeed, they are great, friendly and helpful, especially people in countrysite. There were really nice moments for me... It was amazing.
> Everywhere they had patience for me to comunicate. I met people with fluent English even though I was warned that they often refused using the this language.
> 
> I like their politeness expressed through their ( French) words.
> What a wonderful this country is where you could hear such beautiful words:
> bonjour Madame, merci Madame ...


 
I know that life as a tourist is nothing to compare with living in a country, but as another recent tourist in France, I'd like to second Seana on this, at least from a tourist's point of view, and American at that. 

I just returned from my first trip to Paris and the countryside (Bretagne as well, coincidentally) and found almost everyone to be extremely helpful and pleasant. Even one man, who was a real character, spouting off about France being invaded by immigrants and the ridiculous prices and the horrible traffic, was very generous and helpful, driving us to the train station after we dropped off our rental car so that we wouldn't have to wait for a taxi. 

I was not expecting the rudeness that is commonly spoken of as the typical French attitude, but I wasn't prepared for how much unrequested assistance people offered. We had passersby stop to help us find things on maps and to tell us of a shortcut to the next station when a Métro station was closed for construction, all very politely and sweetly. We had a museum ticket attendant wave us through to let us see a museum for 45 minutes rather than make us fill out our museum pass and use a day of it on that 45 minutes. People were complimentary of our attempts to speak French everywhere, and patient when we were confused. Almost everyone we met was unusually helpful. 

I don't know where this image of the French comes from, but it is deeply imbedded in the U.S. pysche, I think. So many people reacted to the news of our trip to France with "Why would you want to go there and put up with their snobbery?" I can't think of a single incident while we were there where anyone acted snobbishly toward us. In fact, it was just the opposite. The false image is a mystery to me.


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## Seana

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> I think that it does not answer this thread question : why ? ...  Or maybe a little bit as you visited Paris and make generalizations of French people...


 
Why? Karine, can't you really guess it? 
And here my theory, _s'il vous plait_. 
As you said we can see inhabitants in a lot of big towns and capital cities all over the world little bit 'fanfaron', conceited, haughty, arrogant and snobbish' 
For a long time France played the exceptional role in Europe. Take note, Paris being a world centre of culture was a capital of world. Its history, monuments, architecture, ancestors, gallery, all is gorgeous and great. 
French was/is a synonym of elegance, there is even a Polish proverb rhymed blend *France - elegance *.
The French language served as lingua franca later on and had influenced on many languages (many Polish words derived from French). French has been the language of diplomacy in Europe. Members of our European societies evinced the snobbery of visiting Paris, using French language , serving French wines and some deliciouses of the French cuisine for centuries.
Writers and painters from entire Europe created there. Paris focussed the intellectual elite with literary output. 
I am afraid that if I were a Parisien being rather humble person I would probably have knocked over in the head. More over I am 100% sure about it.

PS but perhaps my opinion isn't too objective since my great-grandfather was Frenchman - another one influence on Poland


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## emma42

I think that it's too easy to say things like "There are polite and rude people in every country...", which, although true, does not address the very real problem of different _perceptions _of la politesse.

Every time I have been to France (both Paris and the provinces) I have been treated well.  I had no idea about the cultural differences we are discussing here (e.g. attitudes to smiling) and behaved as I would anywhere else, ie I tried not to make the other person uncomfortable (thanks, Nun!).  It must have been quite clear from my demeanour and behaviour that I loved speaking French, that I was interested in France and in getting to know French people.  I am sure I must have committed some cultural and linguistic faux pas, but French people (being almost as intelligent as the English) must have understood that my intention was to be friendly and respectful.  People are, indeed, people and human instinct will out, and recognise friendliness for what it is...eventually.

Also, as has been pointed out, Paris is not France, nor London, England, nor New York City, the USA.


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## scotu

The more I think about the title of this thread, the more it bothers me. The title offers a prejudicial opinion and asks us to validate that opinion. It leaves little room for argument. If a poster has a different opinion about French rudeness; that poster is placed in the position of being non responsive to the thread. 

How about threads like "Why are the Irish alcoholics?", "Why do Germans have a tendency to be sociopaths?" or "Why are Americans the only good people in the world?"


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## emma42

Hi Scotu.  The title includes the word "supposedly", so I read it as "Why is there a perception that French people are rude?"  And there is such a perception in certain quarters, so I don't think the thread title is offensive.


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## maxiogee

scotu said:


> The more I think about the title of this thread, the more it bothers me. The title offers a prejudicial opinion and asks us to validate that opinion. It leaves little room for argument. If a poster has a different opinion about French rudeness; that poster is placed in the position of being non responsive to the thread.
> 
> How about threads like "Why are the Irish alcoholics?", "Why do Germans have a tendency to be sociopaths?" or "Why are Americans the only good people in the world?"



That post is a result, surely, of not thinking _enough_ about the title of this thread!

The title, you say, offers a prejudicial opinion and asks us to validate it. Rubbish. The only prejudiced opinion it offers is of those people who think French people are rude. In asking why, the thread starter is automatically stating that they don't see any reason to believe the French are rude and is seeking opinions on why people might think they are.

You say the title leaves little room for argument - and yet if you look back over the posts here count how many disagree with the notion that the French are rude. When you've done that come back and tell us if there is only "little room".
One of the primary arguments against the thread title you seem to think was posted is "Are they?" That argument can still be used here. I don't think we Irish would ascribe rudeness to our stereotypical Frenchman or woman.


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## rsweet

Like many foreros in this thread, I have found the French to be extremely kind during my travels. One morning when I was trying frantically to find La Gare Montparnasse, I asked an older gentleman for directions. After telling me how to get there, he then saw that I turned down the wrong street. He hurried after me (he had to be in his 80s!) and not only walked me to the station, but also told me about his travels and invited me to visit him if I were ever in Nantes! We had a cup of coffee while waiting for the train, and he engaged a young couple in conversation. They were also from Brittany, and they helped me find my train and my seat!! Once I arrived in Brittany, I met people who showed incredible kindness and warmth: I received a written list of the most beautiful sites to see from the man serving coffee at a café, was invited to dinner at the home of the woman who rented me the gite, who then took me under her wing and showed me her beautiful region on her days off. We became good friends during my month-long stay and a year later, we still exchange emails and packages.

In contrast, the server at the bakery in the village was often cold or rude to me. I mentioned this once to my friend, thinking that the woman at the bakery didn't like Americans. My friend said the woman at the bakery was rude to *everyone*, and she didn't shop there because of it!

I think perhaps the perception by some that the French are rude stems from (among other things, such as a failure to understand cultural differences) taking one rude person's behavior personally, as something directed at foreigners, rather than just one individual who happens to be rude.


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## invictaspirit

Allow this *rosbif* to give his neighbours some support here.

I live approximately 85 km from France and have been there very often indeed in my 42 years.  The French are not rude.  They can be a little short or impatient in Paris.  But as someone who lives on the periphery of London, I understand that.

This is where I start offending French posters.

Parisians respect arrogance.  There is a big city attitude there that I see also in London.  My French is pretty bad.  In other regions of France I might stumble apologetically through a few sentences, trying to be very polite, and am always treated with interest and courtesy no matter how badly I am crucifying the language.  That doesn't work in Paris.  You get rolling eyes and get ignored.  The more direct and dominant you are, the better the service, the more they like you.  If I forget how to say something, I say it without apology in English (something I would never do outside Paris).  Still no problem.  I find that if you act like a Parisian (in a hurry, important stuff to do, a little attitude) Parisians treat you with respect.  If you act like a simpering, servile tourist apologising for not knowing things, they think you suck.  

Outside Paris I have been treated with enormous warmth and hospitality.

I think it is a myth.


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## LouisaB

I think it's a myth too - and would cite in evidence the unusual courtesy and open-mindedness with which our French posters have replied to this thread. If the response had been 'Rude, us? How dare you?' one might think differently...

But it's certainly a common perception - and apparently one shared by many of the French themselves. On Friday October 20th an English middle-brow newspaper said that a new report had just been issued by tourism expert Claude Origet du Cluzeau, claiming his countrymen could be seen as 'arrogant and scornful'. According to the Daily Mail (awful paper): the report 'branded the French stressed out and distant' and said that French waiters 'shun the idea of service with a smile'. It also said a third of French people refuse to hold a conversation in English, even when they are capable of doing so'.

I'm sure these are highly selective quotes, and the translation may be suspect too. But would it be true to say there's any genuine concern in France about it, and any fear this may deter tourists?


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## Lavinia.dNP

KaRiNe_Fr said:


> I think that it does not answer this thread question : why ? ...  Or maybe a little bit as you visited Paris and make generalizations of French people knowing only few parisian people.
> Don't forget that Paris is only a piece of France, even if the biggest town, and doesn't stand for the whole France. And even if parisian can seem "colder" than those from humble towns it's something you can see in a lot of big towns all over the world.
> For instance, here, "la bise" (only 2) are real mouth-cheek kisses.  This could also obviously be seen as a disgusting habit of rude people too. It all depends on the eye of the beholder, of course...
> Moreover if I were living in a foreign country for many years and never managed to make friends and go out with them on the evening after work, I would certainely wonder about my own behavior. I don't think I would draw a conclusion saying all the inhabitants of this country are rude!


 
I have been living in Paris for 4 years, therefore, if all the people I came across in 4 years did nothing more than respecting the basic rules of kindness but basically were cold and standoffish, how can I assume that hidden who knows where there are those rare examples of warmth and welcomingness you mentioned?

I have some friends here, but none of them is Parisian.

Perhaps you are right, as an Italian, there must be something in my behaviour that french people find rude, but if anyone had the courage to tell me what is wrong instead of hypocritically smiling at me , that would perhaps make my life easier.

PS, concerning the four "air kisses" I never said that I find it rude, it's only that it seems to me a bit fake and also too long when you have a dozen people to "quadruple air kiss".


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## KaRiNe_Fr

Lavinia.dNP said:


> I have been living in Paris for 4 years, therefore, if all the people I came across in 4 years did nothing more than respecting the basic rules of kindness but basically were cold and standoffish, how can I assume that hidden who knows where there are those rare examples of warmth and welcomingness you mentioned?


I don't want to convince you as your opinion is already done.


> I have some friends here, but none of them is Parisian.


Be sure I'm glad to hear the first part of your sentence. 


> Perhaps you are right, as an Italian, there must be something in my behaviour that french people find rude, but if anyone had the courage to tell me what is wrong instead of hypocritically smiling at me , that would perhaps make my life easier.


As a "southerner", I could feel the same at the beginning as there is a real big a priori against parisian from us (old soccer rivalry, between Paris and Marseille, maybe?  ). But, waiting for invitations is my strategy. Coming into a group of persons who already know each other is not an easy task. I've been a parisian for only 4 months, and manage to be invited to go out at night many times. Moreover when you ask for their roots, you will see that there are not that many "real parisians", they are often coming from a countryside, if not them, their parents...
Maybe if you can't find the solution of "what's wrong with me with the parisians", you can directly ask some of them? (not kidding)


> PS, concerning the four "air kisses" I never said that I find it rude, it's only that it seems to me a bit fake and also too long when you have a dozen people to "quadruple air kiss".


I didn't say you said it's rude. I say that some can see the habit of a real mouth-cheek kiss (which is not the one "on the air") as a nasty habit of rude people, this was just an example. Kissing your colleagues, not ony your friends, or family can seem strange for... strangers!


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## coachmanu

I m agree with that. We are rude but we have other quality as love.
Who are already leave in france?


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