# Hindi, Urdu:  suicide kar rahii thii



## MonsieurGonzalito

Friends,

In an Indian series I am watching, a young girl attempts to commit suicide (by hanging), but she is saved just in time by a policeman.
When the father arrives home and asks what happened, her younger brother says:

_- diidii susaaiD kar rahii thii_


I am a little puzzled by this expression. Is "_rahnaa _in the past" the idiomatic way in which one refers to something that "failed to occur", or that one "attempted something which didn't come to pass"?

Or it is just  generic (and somewhat clumsy) way to express that she was "in the process of doing something", i.e. "Sister was committing suicide"?


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## Qureshpor

diidii suicide kar rahii thii in the context is equivalent to “My sister was going to commit suicide.”

diidii is not used in Urdu in everyday speech.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Oh, so _rahnaa _is also used in a future/presumptive fashion, same as the_ -ing_  forms in English?

Would "_bahan susaaiD *jaa *rahii thii" _have been equivalent?


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## Qureshpor

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Oh, so _rahnaa _is also used in a future/presumptive fashion, same as the_ -ing_  forms in English?
> 
> Would "_bahan susaaiD *jaa *rahii thii" _have been equivalent?


If “susaaiD” is a place name….

My sister was going to susaaiD! 😀

We need “susaaiD” karne jaa rahii thii.

Or better still

xvud-kushii karne vaalii thii


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> _- diidii susaaiD kar rahii thii_



Meanwhile, I would assume the sentence had nasals? It would be very strange to have it without a nasal, as "diidii" is generally used for an older sister.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

littlepond said:


> I would assume the sentence had nasals?


She is somewhat older. I believe they have an older actress playing as a younger girl, as she has to perform some lewd scenes.
If he is really pronouncing those nasals, I wouldn't know.


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## Simple1234

littlepond said:


> Meanwhile, I would assume the sentence had nasals? It would be very strange to have it without a nasal, as "diidii" is generally used for an older sister.


Not at all necessary. The use of formal language while addressing an older sister/brother is completely dependent on one's family/parents' choice.
For example: In some families, the younger ones directly call the older siblings by their names, without using the respecting terms 'diidii or bhaiyaa'; whereas in other families, they may use the respecting terms, but choose to address them with 'tu' instead of 'aap or tum'.
Generally, the nasal would be necessary when a person uses the formal way of addressing a person i.e. 'tum or aap'. The respecting term 'Didi or bhaiyaa' would have a lesser effect in dictating whether the nasal form would be used. 
(example: tum boli *thiin* tum mujhe chocolate dilaogi - you said you would get me a chocolate) Note: it can also be said like this: tumne kaha tha tum mujhe chocolate dilaogi

Secondly, even if you use the nasal form while directly talking to him/her as a second person (i.e. when you use "you/your), you would not necessarily use the nasal form while addressing her/him as a third person (i.e. when using him/her).
(example: usne kaha tha wo mujhe chocolate dilayegi - She said you would get me a chocolate)

Lastly, the above given versions vary from region to region because as I said it is completely a person/family's choice how they address an older person in their homes and is sometimes influenced by the society around you.


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## littlepond

Simple1234 said:


> Not at all necessary. The use of formal language while addressing an older sister/brother is completely dependent on one's family/parents' choice.


Well, that was not under discussion. I myself don't use "didi" or "bhaiya" for my immediate family members, whatever their age be, so of course I know that. And, to correct you further, it is not necessarily dependent on "one's family/parents' choice": it could also be one's _own _choice (my case).



Simple1234 said:


> For example: In some families, the younger ones directly call the older siblings by their names, without using the respecting terms 'diidii or bhaiyaa'; whereas in other families, they may use the respecting terms, but choose to address them with 'tu' instead of 'aap or tum'.


So? This is not under discussion.


Simple1234 said:


> Generally, the nasal would be necessary when a person uses the formal way of addressing a person i.e. 'tum or aap'. The respecting term 'Didi or bhaiyaa' would have a lesser effect in dictating whether the nasal form would be used.


Unless "didi" was the name of the character or, very weirdly, being used by the speaker for a younger sister, grammar dictates nasal form. It is not possible to have a sentence as written in the OP. One doesn't have to go into "tum" and "aap" for that.



Simple1234 said:


> (example: tum boli *thiin* tum mujhe chocolate dilaogi - you said you would get me a chocolate) Note: it can also be said like this: tumne kaha tha tum mujhe chocolate dilaogi


But there is no possibility of adding a nasal in "tumne kaha tha tum mujhe chocolate dilaogi" anyway, whatever be the situation! So I fail to see what you are saying. Maybe you are talking of what would happen with "aap," but, again, one is not discussing "tum" and "aap" (and it's very rare to call one's own sister or brother with "aap" in modern India, and it was not so frequent even in the older India I know).



Simple1234 said:


> (example: usne kaha tha wo mujhe chocolate dilayegi - She said you would get me a chocolate)



Again, there is no possibility of introducing any nasal in the sentence once you say "us" (i.e., "us ne")! And if you had said "unhoN ne," then it would become compulsory to say "dilaayeNgii" (which reinforces what I said earlier about "diidii": once you use the word, the accompanying grammar ensures the nasal).


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## littlepond

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> If he is really pronouncing those nasals, I wouldn't know.



Why? Is the series only subtitled in Hindi and not spoken in Hindi language? Or, is it difficult for your ears to catch nasal sounds in Hindi?


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## aevynn

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Or it is just generic (and somewhat clumsy) way to express that she was "in the process of doing something", i.e. "Sister was committing suicide"?


Yes, this sounds about right to me: it's just the past progressive grammatically -- nothing "fancy" going on. I also agree with @Qureshpor jii that the "karne vaalii thii" construction sounds a little better, but I don't think the sentence would have struck me as at all odd in the moment.



Qureshpor said:


> xvud-kushii karne vaalii thii


Today I learned that the word is originally xud-*kushii* rather than xud-*xushii*...! Based on the number of hits Google returns for खुदखुशी in Devanagari, it seems like this is probably a pretty common "vulgarization"...? In retrospect it makes perfect sense that it would actually be _kushii_ ("killing"), but I think in the back of my head I always thought the reason for the _xushii_ was something like, it's something someone might do to satisfy their own morbid desires and make themselves happy one final time (without regard for anyone else's feelings), or something like that...



littlepond said:


> It would be very strange to have it without a nasal, as "diidii" is generally used for an older sister.





littlepond said:


> Unless "didi" was the name of the character or, very weirdly, being used by the speaker for a younger sister, grammar dictates nasal form. It is not possible to have a sentence as written in the OP.


It actually doesn't seem unreasonable to me either that the character may have said this without nasalization...? In my family, my generation (siblings, cousins) has more or less done away with _diidii-bhaiyaa_ titles [unless one of the younger ones wants something from one of the older ones and is sucking up! ], but the titles are well in tact in my parents' generation, but even they don't use honorifics when talking about older siblings in the third person. I regularly hear them say things like _diidii kab aa'e_gii_ (as opposed to _aa'eN_gii_) or _bhaiyaa bhii aayaa thaa_ (as opposed to _aa'e the_). There are surely many differences from region to region, family to family, person to person, and even moment to moment, about how much honorifics are expected for older siblings, but based on the version of the language I'm exposed to most intimately, not using honorifics when talking about a _diidii_ doesn't strike me as weird at all.


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## Qureshpor

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> Friends,
> 
> In an Indian series I am watching, a young girl attempts to commit suicide (by hanging), but she is saved just in time by a policeman.
> When the father arrives home and asks what happened, her younger brother says:
> 
> _- diidii susaaiD kar rahii thii_


What's the name of the serial? In which episode and at what time?


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## MonsieurGonzalito

Qureshpor said:


> What's the name of the serial? In which episode and at what time?


The movie is called "Aranyak" and it is on Netflix. 
(It is rather bad, I just watch it to catch some Hindi)
The dialog happens on Episode 7 at 15:20.


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## MonsieurGonzalito

littlepond said:


> Why? Is the series only subtitled in Hindi and not spoken in Hindi language? Or, is it difficult for your ears to catch nasal sounds in Hindi?


The latter. I am often deaf to the level of nasalization Hindi speakers use, unless they exaggerate it for teaching purposes, etc.


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## Qureshpor

MonsieurGonzalito said:


> The movie is called "Aranyak" and it is on Netflix.
> (It is rather bad, I just watch it to catch some Hindi)
> The dialog happens on Episode 7 at 15:20.


Ok, thanks but I don't have access to Netflix.


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## littlepond

aevynn said:


> I regularly hear them say things like _diidii kab aa'e_gii_ (as opposed to _aa'eN_gii_) or _bhaiyaa bhii aayaa thaa_ (as opposed to _aa'e the_). There are surely many differences from region to region, family to family, person to person, and even moment to moment, about how much honorifics are expected for older siblings, but based on the version of the language I'm exposed to most intimately, not using honorifics when talking about a _diidii_ doesn't strike me as weird at all.



On further thinking, you are right: some don't nasalize even when using "diidii" and "bhaiyaa."

I also don't have acess to Netflix.


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## Simple1234

littlepond said:


> Unless "didi" was the name of the character or, very weirdly, being used by the speaker for a younger sister, grammar dictates nasal form. It is not possible to have a sentence as written in the OP. One doesn't have to go into "tum" and "aap" for that.


I disagree. As for me the honorifics didii or bhaiyaa do not decide the nasal use. It is the use of "app" that does that. 
I have been speaking and listening people speak this way in my vicinity since the time I can recall.


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## littlepond

Simple1234 said:


> I disagree. As for me the honorifics didii or bhaiyaa do not decide the nasal use. It is the use of "app" that does that.


But you did give the example "tum boli thiin tum mujhe chocolate dilaogi": so, apparently, "aap" is not the determining factor for you, too?



Simple1234 said:


> I have been speaking and listening people speak this way in my vicinity since the time I can recall.


That is fine: if you've been among people who speak like that, then that also exists. (As I also said in Post 15.) Language is not the preserve of one. It is used differently by different people.

Meanwhile, I am still curious if nasal exists or not in the concerned dialogue of the OP, if some native speaker has access to Netflix.


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## aevynn

littlepond said:


> Meanwhile, I am still curious if nasal exists or not in the concerned dialogue of the OP, if some native speaker has access to Netflix.


I do have access to Netflix: no discernible nasal.


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## Simple1234

littlepond said:


> But you did give the example "tum boli thiin tum mujhe chocolate dilaogi": so, apparently, "aap" is not the determining factor for you, too?
> 
> 
> That is fine: if you've been among people who speak like that, then that also exists. (As I also said in Post 15.) Language is not the preserve of one. It is used differently by different people.
> 
> Meanwhile, I am still curious if nasal exists or not in the concerned dialogue of the OP, if some native speaker has access to Netflix.


I am not an expert in grammar. just telling the way I have been listening and speaking.

To answer your question, I think aap or tum both can be a determining factor? Please see below example for 'tum' and let me know if I am wrong.

wo party mein gayi thi?   - casual way mostly for same age if you refer to that person with tu.
*way* party mein gayi *thiin*? - formal way for older person if you refer to that person with tum or aap.

What I have observed is, when you use tum or aap in second person, you tend to use the nasalized form while talking about him/her in third person as in above example.


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## littlepond

Simple1234 said:


> wo party mein gayi thi?   - casual way mostly for same age if you refer to that person with tu.
> *way* party mein gayi *thiin*? - formal way for older person if you refer to that person with tum or aap.



Your both sentences above are of course fine and the only way: one cannot have "voh ... thiiN" or "ve ... thii." Interestingly, in the present tense, some people do mix for "voh": for example, one hears both "voh paarTii meN gayii hai" (I'd say the grammatically prescribed sentence) and "voh paarTii meN gayii haiN"!


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## Qureshpor

Having read everyone's views, from the grammar and traditional cultural perspective, I am inclined to agree with @littlepond that if we accept that "diidii" is a term used for elder sister, then in the context one would expect a verbal plural in the form of a nasal. In this scenario thereore, a careful dialogue writer would/should have written "diidii aatmahatyaa kar rahii thiiN" and one would address one's diidii with the pronoun "aap" and not "tum".  On the other hand if the writer is reflecting the language spoken in sections of current society, then one has to accept the points made by @Simple1234 and aevynn SaaHib.


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## Qureshpor

aevynn said:


> Today I learned that the word is originally xud-*kushii* rather than xud-*xushii*...! Based on the number of hits Google returns for खुदखुशी in Devanagari, it seems like this is probably a pretty common "vulgarization"...?


Another version of the Urdu "xvud-kushii" that I have heard, albeit in a comedy (film angoor) is the word "xvush-kudii" which I thought was very good!


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## littlepond

Qureshpor said:


> albeit in a comedy (film angoor) is the word "xvush-kudii" which I thought was very good!


"Angoor" is anyway a delightful film! You've reactivated my memory of it, I need to watch it once again (it would probably be the fifth time).


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## amiramir

Qureshpor said:


> Another version of the Urdu "xvud-kushii" that I have heard, albeit in a comedy (film angoor) is the word "xvush-kudii" which I thought was very good!



Can you pls explain the wordplay? It is escaping me. xush is clear, but what is kudii (कुदी ?) Unless it was kuudii? Thanks!


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## Qureshpor

amiramir said:


> Can you pls explain the wordplay? It is escaping me. xush is clear, but what is kudii (कुदी ?) Unless it was kuudii? Thanks!


Well, as this was mentioned before, this quote comes from a comedy film called "Angoor" in which (if I remember correctly) one of the characters goes to a stall to purchase a piece of string/rope. The seller gives the price and asks what it's for. The buyer says it is for "xvud-kushii" and begins to haggle for the price at which point the seller gets somewhat annoyed and says something to the effect of "Wants to commit suicide and is worried about the price of rope!" The word he uses for suicide is "xvu*sh*-*ku*d*ii*". You can see that the "sh" and the "d" have been switched over. I don't think we are meant to understand "kudii" to be linked to "kuudnaa" or anything else. It's just a switch of sounds giving a funny sounding word.


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