# Kaputt



## Maroseika

Hello.

1. Can anybody confirm or disprove that the word "kaputt" existed in German long before WWII (obviously since the middle of XIX cent.)?

2. Is the expression "Hitler kaputt" gramatically correct, or better say could it be created by a German speaker or it looks like created by a foreigner?


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## Brioche

Kaputt has been around since the Thirty Years' War (1618-1648).


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## Kurtchen

Maroseika said:


> Hello.
> 
> 1. Can anybody confirm or disprove that the word "kaputt" existed in German long before WWII (obviously since the middle of XIX cent.)?



see the German Wikipedia article



> 2. Is the expression "Hitler kaputt" gramatically correct, or better say could it be created by a German speaker or it looks like created by a foreigner?


It is neither grammatically correct (because of the missing auxiliary _sein_, typical for Slavic languages) nor idiomatic to use _kaputt_ with the connotation 'dead'_

kaputt sein_ if applied to people is a colloquialism which means 'to be exhausted or pooped out', sometimes also 'to be crazy'


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## Sidjanga

May this have anything to do with the Russian film "Hitler kaputt"? (article from the Süddeutsche Zeitung)

And this might be even more relevant (I don't have access, though).

So the expresssion really seems to exist, or to have existed, anyway.





Kurtchen said:


> .. nor idiomatic to use _kaputt_ with the connotation 'dead'


It would certainly not be very idiomatic, but I wouldn't rule out that - within the appropriate context - it might be used with this meaning even by a native speaker.
.


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## sokol

Sigianga said:


> May this have anything to do with the Russian film "Hitler kaputt"? (article from the Süddeutsche Zeitung).


It might have, but even more likely there's also a connection with this thread in the Russian forum about this film title.

My Russian is not very good; so, Maroseika, could you please tell us if there was a discussion over there wether "Гитлер капут" would be idiomatic German? (Would save me the trouble to find my way through this whole thread. )
The answer to this would of course be negative, and the phrase very likely hasn't been coined from German native speakers; it should be of Russian origin I guess.


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## berndf

It might originally have been one of the many word plays on "Heil Hitler". "Heil" means here "hail" or "prosperity". As an adjective "heil" is the opposite of "kaputt" which means "broken". So "heil Hitler" - "Hitler kaputt" means "not-broken Hitler" - "Hitler broken".

Like others said, the expression is not popular with native speakers as it is simply bad German. It sounds like Pidgin.


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## Sepia

Um es ganz kurz zu sagen: Kaputt benutzt man hauptsächlich als adj. für Sachgüter. Für Menschen gehört es eher zur Umgangssprache, beispielsweise:

"Ich kam da rein und, weißt du, da saßen überall nur kaputte Typen rum!" Heißt natürlich nicht, dass Tote oder Verletzte in der Kneipe rum saßen, sondern Typen die z.B. total runtergekommen aussahen, auf drogen waren, einfach nur verrückt wirkten etc. 

Ich schließe nicht aus, dass man in irgendeinem Zusammenhang - "Hitler kaputt" sagen kann, aber es gehört wohl eher dahin, wo man die Regeln kennen muss, um die sinnvoll zu missachten. Das gilt ja beim texten genau so wie in jedem anderen Handwerk oder jeder anderer Kunst.


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## Maroseika

sokol said:


> My Russian is not very good; so, Maroseika, could you please tell us if there was a discussion over there wether "Гитлер капут" would be idiomatic German? (Would save me the trouble to find my way through this whole thread. )
> The answer to this would of course be negative, and the phrase very likely hasn't been coined from German native speakers; it should be of Russian origin I guess.


Well, the problem with this expression is that it's well known in Russia and former USSR as a slogan used by the German soldiers when giving up during WWII (at least basing on the movies and historical books), though it sounds too incorrect in German, like others here have already mentioned. Therefore it is considered sometimes as invented in the USSR. However this is only a part of the problem. 

Another part is that the very word "kaputt" was known in Russia since the first half of the XIX century (one can encounter it in the texts of Gogol, Dostoyevskiy, Herzen) in the sense of "end, death". Most likely it was borrowed from the numerous Germans living in Russia since the XVIII cent. 

So, basing on what was already said here, we may conclude that this German word might have been used in said expression in the "Russian" sense or better say obsolete German sense of the XIX century.
Unless there was really a kind of the word play (heil-kaputt).
And the third version - expression was created by the Russian speakers by use of the Russian word which German origin was clear, but without any respect to the German grammar.
Thank you all for this useful info.


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## sokol

Maroseika said:


> Well, the problem with this expression is that it's well known in Russia and former USSR as a slogan used by the German soldiers when giving up during WWII (at least basing on the movies and historical books), though it sounds too incorrect in German, like others here have already mentioned. Therefore it is considered sometimes as invented in the USSR.


Ah now, this is interesting ... "Hitler kaputt" could be a kind of Pidgin German which German native speakers may use to talk to foreigners (especially _Gastarbeiter _= migrant workers). So it _would _be thinkable that German Soldiers would have talked like that to Russians when giving up - in the hope that Russians who might not understand German probably might understand Pidgin German.
(This of course is absurd - this Pidgin German is not less absurd in Austria and Germany nowadays of course; but that is not the point: it is still used though, by some people.)
It is also quite likely that German soldiers did use this Pidgin German with Russian prisoners of war.

Of course all those using this Pidgin German _do _know that it is incorrect German. In this incorrect German a phrase like "Hitler kaputt" would be possible. (Mainly verbs are only used in infinitive, no declension applied to nouns and adjectives, etc. - a hugely simplified German.)

But this still need not be the true origin of the phrase - "Hitler kaputt" still could be a made-up Russian version: to decide this one would have to search historical documents and hope to find a hint somewhere.



Maroseika said:


> Another part is that the very word "kaputt" was known in Russia since the first half of the XIX century (one can encounter it in the texts of Gogol, Dostoyevskiy, Herzen) in the sense of "end, death". Most likely it was borrowed from the numerous Germans living in Russia since the XVIII cent.


This still makes both possibilities quite likely - the one of German soldiers inventing it, and the other one of Russian origin of the phrase. I guess that this will not be of great help to decide the origin of the phrase; both explanations sound quite likely.



Maroseika said:


> Unless there was really a kind of the word play (heil-kaputt).


Well, now that we've got this broader context from you I guess that a play on words (like "Heil-kaputt") probably is not needed because there are two explanations which for me at least seem to be more likely - the two mentioned above. (And if we already have two good explanations we shouldn't look for a third one except if the third one sounds even better.)
But I am still guessing here of course.

(Now that you've roused my interest I may still read the Russian thread.  Tomorrow, probably.)


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## berndf

sokol said:


> Ah now, this is interesting ... "Hitler kaputt" could be a kind of Pidgin German which German native speakers may use to talk to foreigners (especially _Gastarbeiter _= migrant workers). So it _would _be thinkable that German Soldiers would have talked like that to Russians when giving up - in the hope that Russians who might not understand German probably might understand Pidgin German.


The following quote corroborates this conjecture:
"Kohlen zu holen. Wenn wir großes Pech hatten, sind wir einige Male auf Russen gestoßen, die nichts für Kinder übrig hatten. Da half auch nicht unser Losungsspruch: "Woyna (Krieg) kaputt, Hitler kaputt, Stalin gut" nichts. Wir mußten den Tag dann mit weniger Essen auskommen."


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## Kolan

sokol said:


> ...
> It is also quite likely that German soldiers did use this Pidgin German with Russian prisoners of war.
> 
> Of course all those using this Pidgin German _do _know that it is incorrect German. In this incorrect German a phrase like "Hitler kaputt" would be possible. (Mainly verbs are only used in infinitive, no declension applied to nouns and adjectives, etc. - a hugely simplified German.)
> 
> But this still need not be the true origin of the phrase - "Hitler kaputt" still could be a made-up Russian version: to decide this one would have to search historical documents and hope to find a hint somewhere.


In light of the above, the Russian phrase must also be deemed as "pidgin", because it fails to comply with Dative case, sort of "Hitler*u* - kaput" (in transliterated Russian).

But Pidgin Russian simply does not  exist.


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## Maroseika

berndf said:


> "Woyna (Krieg) kaputt, Hitler kaputt, Stalin gut" .


Well, but exactly this phrase looks like made-up by Russians, because "kaputt" is used here in the Russian sense, not German. Even if German soldiers wanted to make it absolutely clear for the Russians, how could they guess this German word meant something different in Russian (*end*) than in German (*broken*)? "Hitler is broken" - well clear, but what does mean "the war is broken"?


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## berndf

Maroseika said:


> Even if German soldiers wanted to make it absolutely clear for the Russians, how could they guess this German word meant something different in Russian (*end*) than in German (*broken*)?


They would not have guessed but known the phrase very much for the same reason Russians knew "Хенде хох!" ("Hände hoch!", "hands up!"): It can become essential for survival. In addition, the quote I gave was from occupied Germany, not from the front. People had had time to learn some important phrases they knew Russian soldiers would understand.


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## Maroseika

berndf said:


> They would not have guessed but known the phrase very much for the same reason Russians knew "Хенде хох!" ("Hände hoch!", "hands up!"): It can become essential for survival.


Most likley Russians first have known "Хенде хох" from the special mini-dictionaries published in the USSR specially for the Army. It's well known German soldiers disposed of the same kind of dictionaries, but I don't think the phrase we are considering could be found there...


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## Hutschi

When a German speaks to foreigners, he often tends to simplify the language. And if I learn a foreign language, I learn at first the most important words.

"Hitler kaputt" is a short form of "Hitler ist kaputt" (which means "geschlagen/vernichtet" (beaten) - it does not necessarily mean "dead". "Kaputt" is used for this only in this context. It has other meanings in almost all other contexts. 

As far as I remember, it was said as well by Russian soldiers as by Germans. (I was not born yet, so I can refer only to memoirs of others.)


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## Maroseika

Hutschi said:


> "Hitler kaputt" is a short form of "Hitler ist kaputt" (which means "geschlagen/vernichtet" (beaten) - it does not necessarily mean "dead". "Kaputt" is used for this only in this context. It has other meanings in almost all other contexts.


This is exactly what I'm interesting in. So the whole phrase "Hitler ist kaputt" sounds quite normal for you, both in grammar and style aspects, and not "artificially"?
Is it possible to say, for example, "Kramnik ist kaputt" so that nobody wondered about the weirdness of the phrase?


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## budt

It does, of course, depend on whether one makes the assumption that "Hitler kaputt" was meant to sound correct in German rather than in another language. 

For example, the OED quotes the following:

*1895* W. M. CONWAY _Alps from End to End_ iii. 59 The thing would then go _wie's Donnerwetter_ and the man would be _kaput_ at once.
_
Kaputt_ and _kaput_ ( the more frequently used anglicized spelling nowadays) have been in use in English for well a century or so and - as may be seen in this very early example - it may be used as a synonym for 'dead', which would be unacceptable in German. This may well apply in Russian or other languages for all I know.


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## berndf

Maroseika said:


> but I don't think the phrase we are considering could be found there...


Of course not. That would have been "Wehrkraftzersetzung", punishable by death. But it is likely they would have known anyway. The Red Army was known to rarely ever make prisoners. So, any information helpful to survive being captured by Russians was likely to have been known.

As Hutschi confirmed, the fact that Russians used this phrase was known to civilians living in the Soviet occupation zone. The newspaper article I quoted earlier suggests that Germans used the phrase to gain sympathy with Soviet soldiers.


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## Hutschi

Maroseika said:


> This is exactly what I'm interesting in. So the whole phrase "Hitler ist kaputt" sounds quite normal for you, both in grammar and style aspects, and not "artificially"?
> Is it possible to say, for example, "Kramnik ist kaputt" so that nobody wondered about the weirdness of the phrase?



"Kaputt" sounds foreign in this sentence wit this political context because of the change of meaning.

Natural style would be: "Hitler ist am Ende."


"Bernd ist kaputt." is "Bernd ist völlig erschöpft/am Ende seiner Kraft." In this context it sounds normal both in style as in grammar.
Depending on context, it might also mean: "Bernd" ist verrückt. "Bernd is crazy/goes bananas/nuts". 
The same for "Kramnik" and for almost all other names. (see also #*7* )

"Hitler kaputt" and "Hitler ist kaputt" are a kind of set phrases.

---

Bei Adelung http://mdz.bib-bvb.de/digbib/lexika/adelung/images/ade1/@Generic__BookView;cs=default;ts=default
heißt es "caput".


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## Robocop

budt said:


> _Kaputt_ and _kaput_ (the more frequently used anglicized spelling nowadays) have been in use in English for well a century or so and - as may be seen in this very early example - it may be used as a synonym for 'dead', which would be unacceptable in German.


I don't think it is unacceptable in colloquial (spoken) German. For exampe, I can imagine very well a person saying in anger, "ich mache dich kaputt (meaning: ich töte dich, ich bringe dich um). As a child, I used to hear the word "kaputt" from the Italian seasonal workers time and again (the Italians or "Tschinggen" as they were called by the Swiss at the time were said to be hot-blooded and quick at drawing their knife in disputes). They spoke a rather rudimental German making simple sentences and the word "kaputt" was applied to everything that was not in order.
By the way, I remember having had New Years greetings from an uncle in America, whose German had got a bit rusty. He used to write, "schon wieder ist ein Jahr kaputt..."


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## Hutschi

In Grimm's Wörterbuch unter "caput": http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Proje...pattern=&lemmapattern=&verspattern=#GC00080L0


> _CAPUT_, _fractus, ruptus, confectus, mit kurzem, betontem_ u: er ist *caput, *_*fertig, **zu grunde gerichtet*,_ *einen caput machen, *_*abstechen.* ein wort beim kartenspiel, was sonst_ martsch, _it._ marcio. _franz._ être capot, _perdre toutes les levées, aber_



Hieraus würde folgen: Hitler ist zugrunde gerichtet = Hitler ist kaputt.



> Bd. 2, Sp. 607
> faire capot, _faire toutes les levées; dagegen sp._ dar capote, _faire capot,_ llevar capote, _être capot._ capot, *capote *_*ist kappe, mantel und hier figürlich angewandt*. vor dem_ 17 _jh. wird es bei uns nicht vorkommen:_ also dasz ich das prae allein behielte und jene nach und nach *caput spielte*. _Simpl._ 2, 176; bestreiten und *caput machen*. 1, 575 (581); wenn mans so macht, so *kann man ein regiment bald caput kriegen*. _B__ODES_ _Tristr. Sh. _2, 136;


Hier wird "caput machen" im Sinne von "kaputt machen"-> "schlagen"  verwendet.


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## Kurtchen

I'm rather surprised at the bizarre direction this thread has taken. I would have thought the meaning of those two words and their implications to be clear, at least to most ethnic Germans. It was the joyous cry of the victor that echoed in the exhausted mumblings of the defeated. It was the watchword that could grant deserters either free passage or a shallow grave. It might be the first thing liberated inmates of concentration camps heard and the last thing German women and children before being raped and tortured to death. It meant 'war is over for you', 'Hitler' and by extension 'the Reich' are no more. Period. 



> In light of the above, the Russian phrase must also be deemed as "pidgin", because it fails to comply with Dative case, sort of "Hitler*u* - kaput" (in transliterated Russian)


Excellent catch. I think it points to Russian speakers without prior knowledge of the language having a try at sounding German. It's just sufficient enough to be unequivocal and understood by both sides. And yes, a single phrase does not Pidgin make


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## berndf

Kurtchen said:


> I'm rather surprised at the bizarre direction this thread has taken. I would have thought the meaning of those two words and their implications to be clear, at least to most ethnic Germans. It was the joyous cry of the victor that echoed in the exhausted mumblings of the defeated. It was the watchword that could grant deserters either free passage or a shallow grave. It might be the first thing liberated inmates of concentration camps heard and the last thing German women and children before being raped and tortured to death. It meant 'war is over for you', 'Hitler' and by extension 'the Reich' are no more. Period.


And? 

We all agreed on that and why Russians said this. The discussion was about when and why and meaning what Germans would say this.


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## Maroseika

My only interest when opening this thread was to find out origin of the phrase "Hitler kaputt".
Its origin is not as evident as might seem, because the word "kaputt" existed in both languages - Russian and German - at least since the beginning of the XIX century, but in the different senses (German - broken, Russian - end, death).
And besides, in both languages the phrase doesn't comply with grammar.

Now, after the discussion I'm inclining to the Russian origin, because only this way it is correct semanticly (= End to Hitler). But German people could hardly know this and just repeated the phrase comprehensing it as said in bad German (= Hitler is broken).


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## berndf

Maroseika said:


> Now, after the discussion I'm inclining to the Russian origin, because only this way it is correct semanticly (= End to Hitler). But German people could hardly know this and just repeated the phrase comprehensing it as said in bad German (= Hitler is broken).


I agree with the first part. The second not. It would be evident to every German speaker that "kaputt" in "Hitler kaputt" and in "Die Vase ist kaputt" doesn't mean the same thing, even if the origin would have been a word play on "heil".


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## sokol

Maroseika said:


> This is exactly what I'm interesting in. So the whole phrase "Hitler ist kaputt" sounds quite normal for you, both in grammar and style aspects, and not "artificially"?
> Is it possible to say, for example, "Kramnik ist kaputt" so that nobody wondered about the weirdness of the phrase?


I guess everybody would think that a phrase like "XX kaputt" is odd, because it is of course grammatically incorrect and "Gastarbeiter = migrant worker slang".

But I guess most native speakers would understand immediately, no explanations needed, if a soldier would point to a prisoner and say: "Du stehlen, du kaputt!" = "You steal you dead". Or in any other context with a name.
"Kramnik kaputt" doesn't sound that natural as "Hitler kaputt" but would work nevertheless, if context were fitting.

So I stick to what I've said above: "Hitler kaputt" would be just perfect for "Gastarbeiter slang".



Maroseika said:


> My only interest when opening this thread was to find out origin of the phrase "Hitler kaputt".


I don't think that it will be easy to find the correct answer to that one; I stick to what I've said earlier: researches in historic sources should be done if you want to be rather sure than only convinced.



Maroseika said:


> Now, after the discussion I'm inclining to the Russian origin, because only this way it is correct semanticly (= End to Hitler). But German people could hardly know this and just repeated the phrase comprehensing it as said in bad German (= Hitler is broken).


Well, I am not so convinced; also I think that Kolan too has offered a good argument: that Russian Гитлер капут also is incorrect, and that in Russian there wouldn't be such a foreign workers' slang as there is in German. (I can't verify that of course.)

Another possibility also would be that the phrase "Hitler kaputt" at first was offered by a Russian soldier, probably one taken prisoner, and then was used between German soldiers and caught on on the eastern front: it wouldn't be unthinkable.
(Even though of course a German soldier would have been punished with death, as Bernd mentioned above, for using the phrase in public.)

And I guess there still would be more possibilities (one single German soldier, or a small group, taken prisoner using this, and the phrase did catch up with Russian soldiers and from there went back to the German front when Russians were taken prisoner - and so on ...).

I am sceptic.

But I would prefer the explanation of "Hitler kaputt" as German pidgin. Slightly.
[I'll answer on the Russian thread later. ]


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## Maroseika

sokol said:


> Well, I am not so convinced; also I think that Kolan too has offered a good argument: that Russian Гитлер капут also is incorrect, and that in Russian there wouldn't be such a foreign workers' slang as there is in German.


Only one comment - just to clarify my point: no need to presume any Russian "foreign workers' slang". For a Russian it would be quite natural to simplify a phrase for a foreigner, but even this is not necessarily assumption. 
If one needs to say something in a language he doesn't know at all, he will use the words, known as pertaining to this languages, as they are - no cases, no grammar, exactly like this: Krieg - Ende, Hitler - Kaputt, Yankee - home, etc. 
Therefore there is nothing weird in the grammatical imperfection of this prase in any of the languages involved.


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## Hutschi

The same what the most Germans are doing.


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## Juri

Es sollte Anfang 1945 sein, wenn Ich erst den Wort "*Kaputt*" hörte.
Nachts, während Fliegeralarm, sassen wir vor den Luftschutzraum unseres Hauses in Triest, denn es war keine Gefahr, die Bomber aus Bari waren schon über Triest nach Deutschland geflogen. Unerwartet,ein deutscher Soldat, mit etwas Charge am Ärmel,bummelte vorbei, ganz betrunken. 
 Man fragte was ist los mit Ihm.
Er antwortete: Dresden- ganze Familie kaputt!
Meine Mutter, die zwei Bruder im Krieg verlohr - weinte mit Ihm.


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## sokol

Juri said:


> Er antwortete: Dresden- ganze Familie kaputt!


Ja, das würde funktionieren - es ist natürlich "Gastarbeiterdeutsch" (also von diesem Deutschen in der Hoffnung verwendet, dass jene mit anderer Muttersprache ihn so "besser verstehen" würden), aber als "Gastarbeiterdeutsch" voll und ganz "idiomatisch" sozusagen.

Wie schon mehrfach gesagt.

Man versteht sofort, obwohl grammatikalisch falsch, dass seine ganze Familie tot ist. (Und man denkt dabei durchaus nicht an "den Hals" oder die Hinrichtungsart "köpfen", wie einige im russischen Thread meinen.)


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