# あれ/あり



## mdbvma

"このサクランボは大小の差はあれ, みな甘い"

Would this sentence mean the same thing if "あれ" were "あり"?


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## 810senior

I'm afraid I would like to answer it over again...
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あれ is probably short(typo?) for "あれど(meaning あるけど, あるけれど, あるけども)".
So when focused on 大小の差はあれ(ど) In the sentence, it means "even though it varies in size (but)".

Whole translation: This cherry varies in size but tastes all sweet.（=このサクランボは、大きいものもあれば、小さいものもあるけれど、みな甘い味がする。）.
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Maybe this sentence is typo for このサクランボは、多少の差はあれど、みな甘い。 (I think it rather makes sense)
If yes, the sentence means "This cherry tastes a bit different but all sweet".


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## SoLaTiDoberman

「ふぞろいの林檎たち」というドラマも大昔にありましたが、形の不揃い(大きさの不揃いを含む）は、規格が不揃い→品質が不揃い→　ひいてはおいしくない、というような、農作物に対する基本的通俗的考え方が現としてあると思います。
以上より私は、原文の"このサクランボは大小の差はあれ, みな甘い"という文章はタイポではないと思います。　（タイポでなくても、意味は通じると思います。実際はどちらかわかりませんが。：）　）

"このサクランボは大小の差は*あれ*, みな甘い"="このサクランボは大小の差は*あるものの*, みな甘い"
”Ｔｈｅｓｅ　ｃｈｅｒｒｉｅｓ　ｄｉｆｆｅｒ　ｉｎ　ｓｉｚｅ，　ｂｕｔ　ｔｈｅｙ　ａｒｅ　ａｌｌ　ｓｏ　ｓｗｅｅｔ！”

"These cherries look bad, but taste terrific." (このサクランボは見かけは悪いが、味は良い。）　

I think if you change あれ to あり,  the meaning becomes a little different and awkward, however, roughly speaking, the meaning remains the same.


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## frequency

mdbvma, it's 'although'.
Although these cherries have differences in the size, they are all sweet.

If selecting あり、 this sounds more:
These cherries have differences in the size and are all sweet.


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## mdbvma

Thank you for your helpful replies.


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## OED Loves Me Not

> "このサクランボは大小の差は*あれ*, みな甘い"


It's not a typo at all.  This kind of writing was quite common
in the old days.  I don't know until when, maybe until 
fifty years ago or so, roughly speaking.

I don't remember the grammar of ancient Japanese well.
But, if I remember correctly, this kind of "あれ" was part of 
a fixed phrase "～こそ～あれ".  This means "although."
Here is one example:


> 「中垣*こそあれ*、一つ家のやうなれば」
> [訳] へだての垣*こそあるけれども*、一つ屋敷みたいなものだから。


http://kobun.weblio.jp/content/こそ

You can find similar examples at the following URL too:
https://www.google.com/search?q="こそあれ"&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl


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## YangMuye

I thought it was the imperative form, similar to にしろ, にせよ, とはいえ, etc.
I am not sure if the authour's use of あれ is proper here. I think if you are to use the imperative form, then using とはいえ is better.


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## SoLaTiDoberman

"このサクランボは大小の差はあれ, みな甘い" is a genuinely correct Japanese sentence.
あれ　is definitely not an imperative form in this context.
This usage is  a little obsolete, written expression, 文語体.
So younger people would think that it might be typo or something wrong, but to elder people including me, it seems a genuine, traditional, correct and natural Japanese!


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## YangMuye

So it is not a typo as 810senior said? Or more likely, the writer meant to write こそあれ, but wrongly replaced こそ with は, because they are sometimes interchangeable in modern Japanese.

I do not know much about 文語, but using 已然形 without any particles like ど, ば or こそ seems rare even in old Japanese.

Using the imperative to express “even if” is still possible in modern Japanese, though I do not really think this usage fits there.


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## frequency

YangMuye,

このサクランボは大小の差はあれ、 みな甘い
このサクランボは大小の差こそあれ、 みな甘い
Yes both are correct, not wrong or unnatural sentences.


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## YangMuye

I see. It seems that はあれ is a recognized usage after all.
I looked up in the dictionary, and found some contradictory explanations.


> http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/88905/m0u/
> さは‐あれ【▽然はあれ】
> ［接］《連語「さは」＋動詞「あり」の已然形「あれ」から》そうではあるが。されど。
> 「―小説に諷意を寓して」〈逍遥・小説神髄〉





> http://kobun.weblio.jp/content/さはれ
> さはれ[二]接続詞
> それはそうだが。しかし。
> [訳] （同じ自分の娘なのだから）このように（薄情に）ほうってお置きなさるまいと思っていた。それはそうだが、世間に母のない子がないことがあろうか（いや、いくらでもあるのだ）。
> 参考副詞「さ」＋係助詞「は」＋ラ変動詞「あり」の命令形「あれ」からなる「さはあれ」の変化した語。「さばれ」とも。


And it is interesting that 大辞泉 considers さはあれ as 已然形 but さもあれ and ともあれ as 命令形.
I cannot find an entry for あれ, but I did find a cited example.


> http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/150261/m0u/
> 程度の差はあれ、誰もが損をした


It seems that using はあれ is especially common in phrases like 差はあれ and 違いはあれ.
I also found some examples of ことはすれ on the internet.


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## 810senior

YangMuye said:


> So it is not a typo as 810senior said? Or more likely, the writer meant to write こそあれ, but wrongly replaced こそ with は, because they are sometimes interchangeable in modern Japanese.
> 
> I do not know much about 文語, but using 已然形 without any particles like ど, ば or こそ seems rare even in old Japanese.
> 
> Using the imperative to express “even if” is still possible in modern Japanese, though I do not really think this usage fits there.



I'm sorry if my first post makes you some confused. I declare myself that the original sentence makes sense even if there are some issues.
As many have already mentioned the point, this expression is extremely literary, rarely used in daily speech. (it means it can be still used but only in the book, newspaper and so forth.)

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In my opinion, あれ is not imperative but the shorten form of あれど(=あるけれど, あるけど, あるが, あるけども etc.).


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