# Dejar alguna ventana abierta



## ander1234

Hi!

How would you say,for instance,_Voy a comprobar el coche por si acaso me he dejado alguna ventana abierta_.Can we use _some window_ in this case?

I mean,I know that I can say:

-I am going to check the car just in case I have left any window/windows open:_Voy a comprobar el coche por si acaso me he dejado cualquier ventana abierta.

-_I am going to check the car just in case I have left a window open:_Voy a comprobar el coche por si acaso me he dejado una ventana abierta.


_But I want to say_ alguna ventana......_Is it correct to say:_

-_I am going to check the car just in case I have left some window open


Is it correct to use some+singular countable nouns in afirmative sentence to mean "algun/alguna...."?I have always used some+singular countable noun to say "algun/alguna....",but I have come across a grammar book which says that some is used only with plural countable nouns and uncountable nouns.This can't be tru,can it?Because then,how do we say "alguna ventana","algún libro",etc,in affirmative sentences?


I am a bit confused,I have always used sentences like _I read it in some book _or _I am going to check the car just in case I have left some window open,_I think that it must be a mistake of the book I have consulted,mustn't it?


Thanks in advance!


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## Chris K

We would probably say "I'm going to check the car and make sure I didn't leave a window open." Some or any wouldn't be necessary.

You can often translate _algún libro_ as "a book," but in some cases there's no reason why you can't also say "some book" (singular).

_There's a book I need at the library._ (I know the name of the book, so I wouldn't say "some") but:
_Where's he going? He needs some book at the library_. (We don't know what book it is.)

In the second example you could have said "a book," but saying "some" emphasizes the fact that it's something he knows about but that we don't know about.

You wouldn't, however, say "would you like some cookie?" It's either "a cookie" or "some cookies."


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## ander1234

Ok,and are there any rules about when it is possible to use some+singular countable nouns and when it isn't?What is the reason why we can say _some book_ but not _some cookie_?


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## Chris K

ander1234 said:


> Ok,and are there any rules about when it is possible to use some+singular countable nouns and when it isn't?What is the reason why we can say _some book_ but not _some cookie_?



There's no "grammatical" reason why you couldn't say "some cookie." It's a little confusing because "cookie" can be used uncountably, as in "there's some cookie on your face." It's really a matter of how we think about particular words in the real world. For instance, to us, the following make perfect sense:

_He married some woman he met in a bar.
She was wearing some shirt her husband gave her._

In both of these there's a degree of uncertainty about the object being referred to (it can also imply a slight tone of disrespect or disapproval). But when you offer someone a plate of cookies there's no uncertainty about what cookies you're offering, so you must say either "a cookie" or "some cookies." In the latter case it means "a few," "more than one," etc.


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## Corintio44

I'd use "*any*:"

...to make sure I didn't leave *any* windows open.

¿Tienes *alguna* pregunta? = Do you have *any* questions?


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## ander1234

Yes,but _to make sure I didn't leave *any* windows open _means "para asegurarme que no dejé ninguna ventana abierta".I know that both mean the same thing,it is just that I find it difficult how to translate _algun/alguna_ in English.Chris K has said that _a _can be translated as _algun/alguna_ sometimes,but I think that _a_ is just _un/una_,_a_ doesn't convey the indefinite concept that _algun/alguna_ does.In Spanish when we say _Me he dajado una ventana abierta_,we can be referring to one windows,but also to several windows.
For instance:
-¿Te has dejado alguna ventana abierta?
-Sí,la izquierda y la derecha.

What I want to know is if in English this distinction exists:

-I have left a window open:Me he dejado una ventana abierta.We know that it is just one window,and,besides,as Chris K pointed out,we know which one it is.

-I have left some window open:Me he dejado alguna ventana abierta.I can be just one window,but also can be 2 windows,3 windows,etc,and,besides,we don't know which one we have left open.

Am I right?

I just want to know how to translate the typical _algun/alguna_ into English.I want to know if I have to translate,for instance,_algun trabajo,algun reloj,alguna calculadora _as _some job/watch/calculator _or as a _job/watch/calculator_.

In other words,is this true(I think that _a_ is just _un/una_,_a_ doesn't convey the indefinite concept that _algun/alguna_ does),or usually _a _is the Spanish _algún/alguna?


_Thanks and sorry if I am asking too much.....


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## Chris K

When we say "I want to make sure I didn't leave a window open" it doesn't necessarily mean that I have an idea of _which_ window it is, or even if there is only one window that might be open. I _might_ know -- if for instance I knew that I had opened the right front window -- but it may just be a general statement of the need to check all of the windows.

We wouldn't say "I have left some window open." We might say "I have left some windows (plural) open so that the dog won't suffocate." We also might say "she had left some window open so she had to go back and close it." The difference is that in the last case we don't know _which_ window she left open.

I know this is very complicated and confusing and probably seems very arbitrary.


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## ander1234

Ok,but when we say _I have left some windows open so that the dog won't suffocate_,we are implying that we have left open at least 2 windows.
Let's see if I have understood correctly:

Algunos/algunas:No problem here._I have left some windows open so that the dog won't suffocate.

_Algun/alguna_:_If the receiver of the message knows which one is open,then _a_(_a window open_,_a book_),and if the receiver of the message doesn't know which one is open,then _some_

The problem is that most times neither the sender of the message nor the receiver of it knows which one is open.Then,we use _a_,don't we?


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## Chris K

ander1234 said:


> Ok,but when we say _I have left some windows open so that the dog won't suffocate_,we are implying that we have left open at least 2 windows.
> 
> [...]
> 
> The problem is that most times neither the sender of the message nor the receiver of it knows which one is open.Then,we use _a_,don't we?



If it was one window we would say "I've left a window open..." You would use "some" when you wanted to indicate some vagueness about which window it was. If you were explaining why a person suddenly left a party, for instance, you could say "she left some window in her house open and had to run home." (You could also say "a window," which is slightly more respectful of the person). 

What you probably _wouldn't_ do is say "I left some window in my house open and had to run home," because "I" _know_ _which_ window. _However,_ if you were talking about an event in the distant past about which you were now a bit vague, you might use "some." Complicated!


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## cbrena

Complicated!

However, by far, the best explanation I have ever read about "some".

I had sought and read many threads about it, and finally I got it!

Thank you ander1234 and Chris K!


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## duvija

"-Some window must be open because I can feel the chill. I must go check.
-No, the chill is from the vent up here".

¿Sirve también? Me parece que en las cláusulas donde dicen que tiene que haber al menos 2 ventanas abiertas, también puede no haber ninguna abierta.

Saludos.


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## ander1234

Ok,so resuming:

In general,to say _algún/alguna_ in Engligh we use _a_.If we try to give a sense of vagueness to the sentence,then we can use some,but,in general terms:

-Alguna ventana:a window
-Algún reloj:a watch
etc......

_Algún/alguna_:_a_(unbelievable,I still can't believe that a single Spanish-English
says that *algún/alguna means a*)


So:
-algún/alguna:a
-If you want to give a sense of indefiniteness:some(but with indefiniteness I mean something that you know that the receiver of the sentence doesn't know it)

Then,as far as I know,this is how a dictionary should translate _algún/alguna:

_-_algún/alguna:__a.
-__algún/alguna:some(if it is just one,but the receiver doesn't know what kind it is)
-algunos/algunas:some+plural(no problem here)
_


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## k-in-sc

duvija said:


> "-Some window must be open because I can feel the chill. I should/need to go check.
> -No, the chill is from the vent up here*."*


In that example, "some" expresses vagueness, not the idea of multiple windows. 
Is that what you were asking?


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## duvija

No. I was asking about the count of '2 windows'. It may be 1 or even 0. 

(Linguistic logic. It's part of Russell's discussion about 'The king of France is bald' which doesn't work if there is none, but it's not good either if there are 2). Lots of quite incomprehensible linguistic logic in my past...

Saludos


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## k-in-sc

duvija said:


> No. I was asking about the count of '2 windows'. It may be 1 or even 0.


You were wondering what the sentence would be if the speaker suspected there was more than one window open? "Some windows ..."
Sorry, I think I still don't know what you're saying!


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## ander1234

Ok,then we use some when the speaker doesn't know which one is open,not the receiver.Am I right?


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## kalamazoo

This is getting a little confusing, but if I think I might have left some window open in my car, I would just say "I need to go check my car in case I left a window open."  It really doesn't rule out the possibility that I actually left two or more windows open  and it doesn't imply that I know for sure that IF there is a window open, it's only ONE window.  The most natural expression is "a window."  On the other hand, if I said "in case I left one window open" it does imply only one window.  So "a" is vaguer than "one."


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## Fer BA

Ander:

I think that the thing that is confusing in here is the way you use _alguna_ into Spanish and then try to translate into English, _me he dejado alguna ventana abierta _in here means one window, any window, not many (in that case you would say _alguna*s* ventana*s*_). You could also use _me he dejado una ventana abierta _(which in turns brings a little bit more determination than _alguna, _since _alguna_ definitely means any window, as _una_ suggests a particular indetermined one). 

I've heard this type of construction to convey what I suspect you're looking for:
_I'm looking for a cookie, any cookie._
_Estoy buscando alguna galleta._

although these constructions stress this meaning in a way that we normaly don't do into Spanish.


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## ander1234

Ok,thank you so much guys!But kalamazoo,why did you use _I might have left some window open in my car_ insteadof _I might have left a window open in my car._I mean,you have used some just to explain me the difference between _some_ and _a _and because_ some _is all this thread is about,because it also sounds more natural _I might have left a window open in my car _than _I might have left some window open in my car,_doesn't it_?
_


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## k-in-sc

ander1234 said:


> O*K*, thank you so much guys! But kalamazoo, why did you use _I might have left some window open in my car_ instead of _I might have left a window open in my car_*?* I mean, you have used some just to explain *to* me the difference between _some_ and _a _and because_ some _is all *what* this thread is about, because it also sounds more natural _I might have left a window open in my car _*also sounds more natural* than _I might have left some window open in my car,_ doesn't it_?
> _


Yes, kalamazoo used "some" to express vagueness, but the normal way to say it is with less vagueness.


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## ander1234

OK,thank you so much!


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## k-in-sc

You're welcome. 
You might want to get the space bar on your keyboard fixed ...


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## ander1234

One last question:I have a doubt about "it also sounds more natural _I might have left a window open in my car _than _I might have left some window open in my car_".Why do we have to say "_I might have left a window open in my car sounds better _than _I might have left some window open in my car_".I know that this form is correct,but so is it the other one,isn't it?I mean,it works as an introductory object in this sentence.

For example,we can say:
-It is better to study than to work
-To study/Studying is better than to work/working.

They are 2 different ways of saying the same thing,and both are correct,aren't they?

Then,why can't I say "it also sounds more natural _I might have left a window open in my car _than _I might have left some window open in my car_",I think is as gramatically correct as "_I might have left a window open in my car sounds better _than _I might have left some window open in my car_",isn't it?



About the tab bar,you are absolutely right!!!


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## kalamazoo

Most natural if you have a vague feeling that maybe you forgot to make sure that all your car windows were closed:

I need to check in case I might have left a window open in my car (really doesn't matter how many).

"Some" window is possible but less natural and not necessary at all in English.

If I am only worried about one particular window somehow - I remember closing all the other windows but I am not sure if i closed one of them -

I need to check in case I might have left one window open


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## k-in-sc

Well, if you left a window in your car open, there aren't that many possibilities as to which one or where it is, are there? Whereas if you say "she met some guy," it suggests "who knows what guy, from who knows where."


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## kalamazoo

I thinki k-iin-sc is on the right track. "Some" guy is just someone or other, I have no idea who he is. "Some" window almost suggests that you don't really know much about your own car windows or as though your car has a lot of windows.   The word "Some" in this case adds a little too much vagueness.   On the other hand, it works better to say that you might have left "some" window open in your house, because your house problably has quite a few windows and you probably don't even actually know exactly how many it has.  Even in this case, though, "a" window in your house is fine.

Ander, you seem to be arguing about "correctness."  I can't say that "some window" in my car is grammatically wrong, but it sounds strange and somewhat unnatural.    In youi work/study example, both are okay. In the 'a/some' window example, 'a' is better than 'some.'


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## ander1234

ander1234 said:


> One last question:I have a doubt about "it also sounds more natural _I might have left a window open in my car _than _I might have left some window open in my car_".Why do we have to say "_I might have left a window open in my car sounds better _than _I might have left some window open in my car_".I know that this form is correct,but so is it the other one,isn't it?I mean,it works as an introductory object in this sentence.
> 
> For example,we can say:
> -It is better to study than to work
> -To study/Studying is better than to work/working.
> 
> They are 2 different ways of saying the same thing,and both are correct,aren't they?
> 
> Then,why can't I say "it also sounds more natural _I might have left a window open in my car _than _I might have left some window open in my car_",I think is as gramatically correct as "_I might have left a window open in my car sounds better _than _I might have left some window open in my car_",isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> About the tab bar,you are absolutely right!!!




Thank you so much,I totally get the use of some now.

I have quoted myself because I would be glad if you could answer this question.
It's not the first time that someone corrects me in this kind of sentences,but I really don't understand what is wrong with,for instance,"it also sounds more natural _I might have left a window open in my car _than _I might have left some window open in my car_"(it(as introductory object)+verb+subject+the rest of the sentence).
I know that it is more natural the other one,as we are saying subject+verb+the rest of the sentence,but it(as introductory subject)+verb+subject+the rest of the sentence should also be correct,shouldn't it?


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## k-in-sc

It's not correct because it creates two subjects in the same sentence: "it" and the phrase. You do it again in your next sentence! 
"It is more natural the other one" 
"The other one is more natural" 
"It is more natural to say (phrase)" 
In English a sentence has one and only one subject.


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## Fer BA

Ander:

would you mind to leave an empty space after commas? and before parenthesis? please? Thanks!


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## ander1234

Sorry, Fer BA, I will try not to do it again.

I understand your explanation k-in-sc, but what I don't understand is why we can say for example _It is better to study than to work _instead of _To study/Studying is better than to work/working,_ or_ It is interesting to learn languages _instead of_ Learning/to learn languages is interesting........_Don't _It is better to study than to work _or _It is interesting to learn languages _also have 2 subjects?http://forum.wordreference.com/member.php?u=5972


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## kalamazoo

"It  sounds more natural TO SAY 'X' than TO SAY 'Y'" is a correct construction.

It is INCORRECT to write 

"It sounds more natural 'X' than 'Y'"
This would be like saying "It is better study than work" which is also incorrect.


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## k-in-sc

Fer BA said:


> would you mind to leave *leaving/putting*  an empty space after commas? and before parenthes*e*s?


Marking the subjects with parentheses:
"(It) sounds more natural (X) than Y" actually means "(X) sounds more natural than Y," and that's how you should say it. You should not have competing subjects in the same sentence. 
In the case of "(It) sounds more natural to say X than Y," you don't have the same problem. I don't know how to explain why not, except that in this case it's the impersonal "it," as in "it's raining."
I said before that sentences should never have two subjects, but that's not true. They can for literary effect. For example, in "(We)'ve had a good life together, (you and I)," "you and I" is an expansion of the subject "we." But that's a special case.


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## Fer BA

K:

I might help a little bit in here, though I'm not familiar with grammar terms, so you will have to help me out...

In the first case "(It) sounds more natural to say X than Y," *it* is the subject, and refers to "to say", (*sounds more natural* is the predicate). The sentence could be read as: _To say X rather than Y, sounds more natural_ (although highly unusual in everyday's speech is a grammatical sentence). When Ander (or me) say "(It) sounds more natural (X) than Y" the subject *it *doesn't have a reference into the sentence (*X than Y* can´t work as a subject as *to say* does).

In the second case (we = you and I) we're talking about a compound subject, but still just *one* subject (*peas and carrots* are good for you). I was trying but couldn't come out with a two subjects examples, I might be wrong but I think that's structurally not possible....


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## k-in-sc

Actually, in  "(It) sounds more natural to say X than Y," ''it'' is the subject and all the rest is the predicate, consisting of the verb ''sounds (+ adverbs)'' and the complement, ''to say X than Y'' .
_To say X rather than Y, sounds more natural _ (as you already said)
_Saying X rather than Y sounds more natural_  Fixed! Easy!


> When Ander (or meI)  say*s* "(It) sounds more natural (X) than Y" the subject *it *doesn't have a reference into the sentence (*X than Y* can't work as a subject as *to say* does).


In the second case, ''you and I'' is not a compound subject but a restatement of the main subject, ''we,'' which is simple. It's an unusual construction, as I said, and I'm not sure what grammaticians call it. But compound subjects are very common. Most examples I found focus on subject-verb agreement, which is not really the issue here:
 Normally a subject made up of more than one element takes a plural verb ("The President and Congress _are_  at loggerheads"), although occasionally, when the elements add up to  the same idea, the verb is singular ("The wear and tear on the car _was_ tremendous"). 
http://grammar.about.com/od/c/g/comsubjecterm.htm


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## Fer BA

K:

Thanks for the corrections, I stand corrected. 
My point was that _it_ and _to say_ refer to the same "thing" but that was more a semantic point and not a grammar one.

Question: if I say "John, Mary and I"... it's not a compound subject? Is "you and I" a special case?


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## k-in-sc

No, "you and I" is a compound subject, it's just not the subject of the sentence I gave. The subject of that sentence is "we." The "you and I" at the end might be considered parenthetical.


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## ander1234

k-in-sc, why do you say that _To say X rather than Y sounds more natural _is incorrect?Maybe it is not as common as _Saying X rather than Y sounds more natural _in everyday speech_, _but I really do think that sentence is gramatically correct.


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## k-in-sc

I guess it's grammatically correct, it just sounds stiff and awkward. English tends to prefer the gerund where Spanish uses the infinitive.


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## duvija

k-in-sc said:


> No, "you and I" is a compound subject, it's just not the subject of the sentence I gave. The subject of that sentence is "we." The "you and I" at the end might be considered parenthetical.


 

Yes. Perfect. 'We' is not the plural of 'you and I'. Clearly stated.


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## kalamazoo

_"X rather than Y sounds more natural "_ is a peculiar sentence for several reasons, and I am not completely convinced that it is even correct, although perhaps it is.

One problem is the way the comparison is constructed. You can't say
"X sounds more natural rather than Y" 
I think the intended subject of the sentence is not X, but actually "X rather than Y" as a unit, and that is what generates the problem, because that is not a proper subject. The subject should be "To say X rather than Y" or "The use of X rather than Y" or something similar where "to say" or "use" is the subject.  

But if the subject is "The use of X rather than Y" then the sentence doesn't have a real comparison in it.  For example, you can say
"To say X rather than Y is common in the Northwest" but then there is no comparison.
To have a comparison you would have to use:
"To say X rather than Y is more common in the Northwest than in the Southeast."

I think the "rather" is also problematic.  "Instead of" is better. 

It is correct, I THINK, to say
It is more natural to say X rather than Y

but the far better construction is:
It is more natural to say X than to say Y 

Getting back to "rather"  I think the "rather" and the "more" don't really go together.  "Rather" is a kind of comparative and so is "more" but they are not easy to use together.  For example one could say

I prefer to say X rather than [to say] Y.  This doesn't have a "more" in it.

Or you could say
"I like to say X more than [I like to say] Y.  This doesn't have a "rather" in it.


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## duvija

Getting back to "rather" I think the "rather" and the "more" don't really go together. "Rather" is a kind of comparative and so is "more" but they are not easy to use together. 


And yet, those are pages with 'rather more'

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIC_enUS273US273&q=%22rather+more%22


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## kalamazoo

My comment was specific to a sentence of the type "To say X rather than Y is more natural," in which I think the use of 'rather' and 'more' together in this particular construction not only doesn't sound natural but even is not really correct. Of course "rather more" is a common phrase and a sentence like "It is rather more difficult to say X than to say Y" would be fine, but that's a different construction.  In that sentence "rather" modifies "more."  But in the original sentence,both "rather" and "more" are being used to express some kind of comparison and that's where I think it is going wrong.

To use "more" implies the comparison of two things in some way.  For example, one could say " To say X rather than Y is more natural for people who grew up in NY than for people who grew up in California."  And, in this case,"rather" also implies setting two things against each other "I prefer to say X rather than Y."  I thik "To say X rather than Y" is functioning as the subject of the original sentence.  So it is actually a sentence of the form something like

Jane is more natural.

And you have to ask "more natural than what?"  

That's where I think the problem is arising.  Maybe you want to say "Jane is more natural than Anne."  But you can't say "Jane rather than Anne is more natural." It just doesn't work.


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