# To sit around like piffey on a rock bun - Idiom



## James Brandon

Some months ago, I posted up a Thread on the expression "to sit around like stewed prunes" and we got to the bottom of that expression eventually. A contributor from N England mentioned, in passing, the expression "to sit around like piffey on a rock bun". I'd like to go back to this phrase and get some details as to its precise meaning and how frequently it may be used. I had never heard it, down here in London, and it sounds typically N English. And why "piffey"? 

Thanks


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## cirrus

Don't ask me why it is piffy or rockbun.  It means to be a complete waste of space, utterly redundant, you might as well not be there.

Imagine you hate shopping and your friends announce they are going to some mega mall and insist it will be great fun.  You go but for your input (and interest) you might as well be sitting on a rockbun.

In terms of usage it is NW England. They definitely say it in Manchester and the Peak District.

These sites all mention it. 
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/27/messages/385.html

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pif1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piffy_on_a_rock_bun

None seems to have an etymology.


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## James Brandon

I was convinced "a rockbun" was some sort of "bun" specific to your part of England - from what you are saying, it is not a kind of bun at all, then, but just a way of saying "something useless" since a bun that is _not_ edible (= made of rock) is not much use. Is this correct?

Also, _who_ is "piffey"?! Sorry if I insist, 8 months on, but some of us keep lists of things in obsessive fashion, as we know.  Would "piffie" be linked semantically to "piffle" and "piffling" (= trivial and unimportant)?


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## cirrus

James Brandon said:
			
		

> I was convinced "a rockbun" was some sort of "bun" specific to your part of England - from what you are saying, it is not a kind of bun at all, then, but just a way of saying "something useless" since a bun that is _not_ edible (= made of rock) is not much use. Is this correct?



Rockbuns aren't made of rock! 

They are a form of scone.


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## DavyBCN

"Piffie on a rock bun" meaning exposed, embarassed. For example "I felt like Piffie on a rock bun" which could be modified to "I felt a right piffie!" 

This definition comes from the BBC web site for Lanchashire - so good thinking cirrus. It is pretty old apparently. I know a rockbun is a type of bun (or hard muffin), but haven't been able to find out what a piffie is. This is the web site and it has a question facility.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire/content/articles/2006/02/16/lists_lancashire_slang_feature.shtml


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## James Brandon

OK, so that's definitely clarified the meaning of the phrase, and its use/spread. 

The phrase is unanimously identified with NW England/_Lancashire_ (which is where you come from, Cirrus, so no surprise here!). A _rockbun_ being an edible bun (and I was surprised it was not, precisely), it does not quite tell us why _piffey_ should be sitting on that as opposed to anything else! As to where piffey came from, there is no etymology that is known, from all the resources quoted. 

There are many idiomatic expressions in English like that, of course, where no clear origin can be worked out - still, this one is particularly 'graphic', as it were!

Thanks


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## .   1

The only reference to piffey I was able to find is an indication that it may have been an herbivourous animal that became extinct at the end of the Mesozoic Era.

My thoughts from that are that the expression means to be obvious and perhaps dim.

I have an impression of a large dinosaur trying to hide on a barren rock with not a blade of grass for cover.

I note also that piffey is close to piffle which is useless or foolish talk.

.,,


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## James Brandon

Interesting - Mesozoic - etymology. Piffey or piffle, or a bit of both? No, seriously, it could be relevant but the link does sound a bit tenuous to me! As for a large prehistoric herbivore sitting on a rockbun, it'd better be a bun made of solid rock for it not to crumble...


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## cirrus

DavyBCN said:
			
		

> "Piffie on a rock bun" meaning exposed, embarassed. For example "I felt like Piffie on a rock bun" which could be modified to "I felt a right piffie!" http://www.bbc.co.uk/lancashire/content/articles/2006/02/16/lists_lancashire_slang_feature.shtml



I don't know that this modification is that common.  You'll hear people saying and there I was like piffie.  As a user of the term, (which is alive and kicking: I heard it in Manchester this week), being exposed isn't the first way I would think of describing the term - if anything it is the opposite - your profile is minimal when you are sat like piffy.


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## ewie

I've always 'read it in my head' as _Piffy _[capital P] _on a rockbun_, as if _Piffy_ was a person rather than a thing (certainly not a dinosaur!)  I've not heard the _sat there like a piffie_ version.
I wonder if any forum members who haven't seen this rather old thread have any further ideas about its etymology ...
~ew


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## Matching Mole

I don't know if you spotted this article, Ewie.



> Nigel Rees, in _Oops, Pardon Mrs Arden!_ says an early form, known from the 1930s, is “sitting here like Piffy” or “sitting like Piffy on a rock bun”. It seems to be a humorous echo of “sitting like Patience on a monument”.



The article suggest that "Piffy" might come from a now forgotten music hall catchphrase. Surely a rock bun is a rock cake, and nothing to do with geology.


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## ewie

Thanks, MM (no, I didn't spot it, nor Cirrus' three links above, which I shall now look at ~ I did spot the BBC one but it didn't work!)


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## alacant

I lived in North Cheshire until I came to Spain, and this idiom was very commonly used.

Also mentioned here:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=piffie+on+a+rock+bun

Alacant


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## James Brandon

It is interesting that the regional origin of the expression has been clearly pintpointed here and confirmed - and it sounds like the idiom definitely comes from NW England. 

I have never heard it used down here, in SE England, but maybe some people (who are _not_ Northerners) do use it...

(Old Threads never die.)


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## Greyscrubber

Greetings.   Re: Piffey on a rock bun:  Sitting around like Piffey.
Have used, been referred to by phrase since early 1960's by parents.  One from NW England other from SW England.  Both were in army.  Could piffey have originated in armed services?


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## James Brandon

Your Post appears to confirm the link to NW England, but also possibly a broader W England origin. I cannot comment on the link to army slang or any 'military' connection. It could be combination of the 2 sources. If the origin of the expression was purely to do with army slang, there would, however, be no clear regional bias, one would have thought.


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## Greyscrubber

In my experience, Piffy is a person who is either in the way of activity or not pursuing any useful role.  Sorry, expect this is too worn a subj for further interest?


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## Loob

Hello, Grey, and a slightly belated welcome to WRF!

I fear you are not going to get many takers for a thread which is nearing its second birthday and has already been resuscitated once

I just wanted to say that I suspect it's your NW parent who brought "piff(e)y on a rock bun" into your family.  I'm a south-westerner (Somerset born and bred) and I'd never heard it before reading this thread.

I look forward to lots more contributions from you!


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## katie_here

I live in Manchester and I've never heard it,  I've heard of Piffy on the railway, and just "piffy" but never Piffy on a rock bun. 

"Sitting here like Piffy"  means I've been asked to do something, like wait in for someone who doesn't turn up, so my time was wasted by someone else.


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## katie_here

Loob said:


> Hello, Grey, and a slightly belated welcome to WRF!
> 
> I fear you are not going to get many takers for a thread which is nearing its second birthday and has already been resuscitated once
> 
> I just wanted to say that I suspect it's your NW parent who brought "piff(e)y on a rock bun" into your family. I'm a south-westerner (Somerset born and bred) and I'd never heard it before reading this thread.
> 
> I look forward to lots more contributions from you!


 
Here's a little poem for you, 

Piffy on the raiilway, picking up stones 
along came an engine and broke piffy's bones
"Oh"! said Piffy, "That's not fair" 
"Oh!" said the Engine driver "I don't care"

It's probably why Piffy is sitting there and no one cares. 

But what it has to do with a rock bun I don't know!.


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## spshone

Standing / sitting like Piffy  (on a rock)
I grew up in Manchester and my Mum uses this all the time.  

It means to stand around doing nothing without much of a care or purpose.  

This is why it can be used when someone tells you you should be getting on with something... "Well she's leaving and you're here, like piffy" (paraphrasing Shameless)

"Are you going to help with this cleaning or just going to stand there like piffy"  (could be my Mum)

Sometimes you can use it if you are left alone, in reference to yourself.  "They all left and there's me, stood like piffy." --- another one would be "stood there standing" (quite common in Manchester too).

You could think of it like - sat/stood there doing nothing.


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## James Brandon

Thanks for reviving this Thread with first-hand contribution to make. From earlier comments, it did sound like this is regional English, more particularly typical of the Manchester area, as I remember (but I have not re-read the various contributions made in 2008-2006). 

It is striking that you say it is so common in your neck of the woods: you never, ever hear it down here in London, as far as I know.


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## sasmith

katie_here said:


> I live in Manchester and I've never heard it, I've heard of Piffy on the railway, and just "piffy" but never Piffy on a rock bun.
> 
> "Sitting here like Piffy" means I've been asked to do something, like wait in for someone who doesn't turn up, so my time was wasted by someone else.


 
This, to my mind, is the closest anyone's come to my understanding of what the expression refers to.

When I've heard it used, it doesn't really refer to simply 'not doing anything' or 'being insignificant' if refers to feeling like a spare-part, either because, as Katie says, someone didn't turn up as expected, or you'd been asked to do some sort of nugatory activity.

Interestingly, my Grandfather used to say this all the time, and was born and bred in Norfolk, with no connection whatsoever (as far as I know) with Lancashire - the saying must have spread a bit further than we thought


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## James Brandon

As I remember, the reference to "the rock bun" was confirmed by at least one contributor (the original one) from NW England. It may be the tail-end of the idiom, as it were, which is not always included in the phrase, as and when used.

There is a difference between, on the one hand, standing around doing nothing (being idle), and having one's time wasted by someone else (when they keep you waiting, don't turn up, or ask you to do something not worth doing in the first place), on the other hand. Having said that, one cannot deny that the 2 meanings are not that far apart, I would have thought: at the core of both meanings is the idea that one is not doing anything productive with one's time - either because of apathy (on the person's part) or because of the others' time-wasting efforts...

PS A definition of 90pc of life, come to think of it.


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## wafflehousekid

My Dad always used to accuse me of 'sitting around like Piffy on a rock bun' and as a kid I didn't really question it. I just took it as being a common phrase to mean sitting around being useless. In fact I was never entirely sure whether the phrase was 'piffy and a rock bun' or even 'Piffiana...' as though it was a type of rock bun!

Today, over 20 years since I last heard it, I just happened to use it to two people at work, and they both looked totally bemused...so I decided to finally look it up, and it brought me to this forum.

I'm afraid I can't shed any light on the meaning, or on who or what 'piffy' is. However my experience certainly backs up what's been said about the geographical origins of the phrase - I was brought up entirely in south-east England (Gillingham and then Hastings), and I have never heard it used by anyone apart from my Dad. I've just asked around 20 other people (all Southerners) all of whom thought I was mad and making it up.

My Dad was born and brought up in Manchester but I've also asked friends from elsewhere in the North-West - Accrington, Liverpool and north Wales - and none of them had heard of it. From that it seems to be a Manchester phrase which hasn't particularly spread or caught on even in surrounding areas.


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## James Brandon

If I remember correctly - and this Thread goes back a bit, as it were, but, like vintage wine, the older they are, the better they get - references to the phrase appeared to be confined to the NW of England. From what you are saying, it could be specific to Manchester, which is of course entirely possible. "Piffy" could be an old dialect term, whose origin would have been lost (and a pure supposition on my part).

I live in SE England/London and have never, ever heard the phrase used by anyone I know - by anyone in fact, but I do not venture Oop North that often, I must admit. 

Instead of _sitting around like piffey on a rock bun_, then, welcome to this learned Forum!


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## ewie

I neglected to say, when I resurrected this thread in February 2008, that I'm from a town about 20 miles north of Manchester in deepest Lancashire, and had _never heard_ the expression till I was 24 and started (erm) frequenting a gentleman who was Manchester born and bred.

I also forgot to say what it means to me: _sat sitting around doing nowt like a spare part_


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## James Brandon

So, it does sound like it is not typical of N W England, or even Lancashire as such, but only the Manchester metropolitan area. This is interesting, and a bit odd it would not have caught on anywhere else in the UK.

I have not re-read the whole Thread and do not remember whether other contributors had heard the expression or not, who were not from Manchester, and who had not been in touch with Mancunians.


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## Seb2921

My mum in Manchester used this expression a lot, to mean sitting around doing nothing when you should in fact be doing something. I was always told that 'piffy' was icing, which if true could mean either that: 
1. You're sitting motionless like, well, icing on a bun, or
2. Icing has no place on a rock bun anyway, meaning that you have no place being where you are (i.e. sitting there doing nothing when you should be doing something else instead)
Maybe this opens up the question of whether a Mancunian rock bun should come with icing or not?


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## James Brandon

This is interesting since it gives us another example of the expression being used in the Manchester area, something mentioned at earlier stages in the Thread. Thanks.


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## Thymepasses

I'm from Lancashire originally - near Preston.  In my family the expression was simply 'Piffy on a rock'. 'Piffy is Patience'.  In Victorian times many sculptures depicted the virtue, Patience, seated on a monument waiting and usually with a near beatific facial expression.    I believe the expression was either late Victorian or WWI in origin. If someone was seen sitting around looking miserable (perhaps taking themselves too seriously) they'd be described as looking like 'Piffy on a rock'.


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## london calling

James Brandon said:


> I have not re-read the whole Thread and do not remember whether other contributors had heard the expression or not, who were not from Manchester, and who had not been in touch with Mancunians.


I'm a Londoner and have only ever been to Manchester once. I've never heard the expression in my life, not even from my grandfather, who was from Burnley. However,  it may well be that serving as an officer in the British Army in mainly foreign parts changed his linguistic habits.


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## James Brandon

It is interesting to have another contributor from Lancashire who is able to confirm that, in one form or other, the expression is known to him. 

This Thread has a habit of being re-born at irregular intervals...


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## wandle

When growing up in a middle-class milieu in south Lancashire, as it then was, between Liverpool and Manchester, I never heard of piffy.
This page has the following:


> We have discussed "stood there like piffy" on another forum and our Lancashire members assured us that the original phrase was "like piffy on a rock bun".
> Piffy, apparently, is a local dialect word for icing sugar.


Perhaps the idea is that icing sugar on a rock cake is a bit of fancy topping on a basic item.
The suggestion would be that the person was a seemingly precious, but superfluous object.

Thus _'You're stood there like piffy on a rock bun'_ means: 
_'You think you're the sugar on the cake'_;
_'You think you can be the decorative topping doing no work while the rest of us prop you up'_.


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## James Brandon

This could be the best explanation for the expression so far, as provided by Wandle: the icing (as in icing sugar) on the cake (or bun), as it were, but not in a positive sense, in the sense that it is superfluous and does not add very much to the cake, hence the idea that sitting there like the icing on the cake does not do very much, and is a sign of idleness and irrelevance in relation to the situation at hand (while others are doing all the hard work...). 

Also, we seem to have clear confirmation of the geographical origin of the expression, i.e. N.W. England (Lancashire).

The expression is discussed here (Guardian website about soap opera "Coronation Street"). 

Extract: _Growing up in Preston, I knew the expression as "pithy on a rock bun". I always understood it to refer to the sad and lonely scatterings of candied peel you might find on such confections.
_
http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-1830,00.html


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## Lady Norwood

Sorry to resurrect this thread but just been discussing this phrase elsewhere...

I wonder if the original word was "puffin" (as in the bird) rather than piffin/piffy?  So the phrase would have been "sitting there like a puffin on a rock" - lonely and alone??


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## James Brandon

Good Threads are like good wine: they get better as they age... I believe this one has been resurrected a few times already. [Post #1 goes back to...........................2006.]

As I remember, the conclusion arrived at was that it was British English, and more particularly NW England, although there was not even any consensus about that. 

See Wandle's comment (07/2013): 'piffey' would seem to be local dialect for something totally different, i.e. nothing to do with a puffin. I can undestand the link you are making, based on phonetics more than anything else, but I suspect this would be a folk etymology, and the truth is to be found somewhere else, i.e. in dialectal use with a local term that has nothing to do with puffins. But this is an educated guess -- educated since based on what various contributors have said, including some who were familiar with the expression.


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## JackRegan

Only just found this. 

My dear departed Grandma who was Welsh, but brought up Radcliffe/Little Lever - well north of Manchester, used to use the "Sitting like Piffey on a rock" - not rock bun.
My Mum used it too, favourite usage when you're late for meeting with them and they say:  "Where have you been?!! I've been sitting here an hour like piffey on a rock!"

So by the sound of it (from the previou entry) North of Manchester we use the phrase in a more curtailed, brusque fashion. 

I love it, vey idiosyncratic


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## johngiovanni

The expression I am used to from my childhood in the Midlands is "like a fairy on a rock cake".  That does not get us nearer the derivation of "piffey" or "piffy", but it has the same meaning - someone left out, hanging about pointlessly, generally being ignored.


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## PaulQ

The Thesaurus of Traditional English Metaphors (2nd Ed.) gives: "left/stuck out there like Venus on a rock-bun"[Nhb1] Grotesquely isolated.

And these are rock-buns (also known as a rock cakes.)





​
1 Northumberland


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## johngiovanni

In some parts of the North East of England it is "standing round like a tin of milk".


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## James Brandon

It would be interesting to know whether "like piffey on a rock" is a different expression or, as seems to be likely, a mere variation on "like piffey on a rock bun" where the "rock bun" has been shortened to "rock", if only because it is easy to visualise someone sitting on a rock.


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## Lozy

I come from Chorley, Lancashire and the expression, "like piffy on a rock cake" was, and to a lesser extent is, very common amongst family and friends, especially the older generation.  It was used either as an accusation if you were sitting around doing nothing when you should have been working or as a complaint that you yourself were being, or had been ignored.  As others have pointed out, the rock cake had nowt to do with geology!  I never knew what "piffy" was.


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## Rover_KE

I've been hearing 'like Piffey on a rock bun' all my life. My wife and I use it on a regular basis in circumstances like those described by Lozy.


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## James Brandon

It sounds to me like 'sitting like Piffey on a rock bun' is the correct expression, i.e. the more frequently used version of it, and it refers to a type of cake, not a rock; it also sounds like it is very much a regional expression centred on Lancashire, in England. I must say I have never, ever heard it in SE England/ Greater London, for what it is worth.

PS: There seems to be 2 different meanings: (1) That the person is being ignored by the others and is isolated; (2) That the person is doing nothing and idling about, being useless, as it were. This is discussed further up in the Thread.


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## Manchester East

Another Mancunian here and James's conclusion correlates with my understanding of the term. My mother and godmother used it often - in both senses (uselessly waiting around/being ignored) - they both hailed from the area to the east of Manchester. I never knew the origin but this thread has provided a lot of insight. Thank you.

P.S. I always assumed the spelling was "Piffy" - but I've never seen the expression written down before.


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## James Brandon

Interesting confirmation of what has been said, here. If you have re-read the Thread in full, you will have seen that a lot of people mentioning the expression/ saying that they know it (or use it) come from Manchester.


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## Dandelion29

Use this saying all the time but wasn't aware of its possible origins.  I come from Cheshire and we say "Stood like Piffy on a rock cake" - rock cake being the same as rock bun - to mean being left stood, unmoved.


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## James Brandon

Thanks, and it confirms that the expression would be mostly used in the North-West of England (Manchester/ Cheshire). The use of 'stand' instead of 'sit' may be along the lines of an expression such as 'to stand around like a lemon' (i.e. with nothing much to do).


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## cirrus

Piffy could be forgiven for wondering if this is the most resurrected thread on WR! ;-)


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## James Brandon

Obviously, there is a lot of interest out there in what Piffy does and who he is... A miracle, truly.  [18,000 views or so and counting: it works a bit like 'likes' on social media!]


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## Matti Lamprhey

Hello fellow wordwonderers and similar -- in the hoary old times of USENET I used to infest the den of knowledgeable iniquity entitled alt.usage.English so it may be that some here will be familiar with my moniker.  Here's my considered judgment of the origin story of this apparently strange expression and its cousins.

The music hall, in between its comics, variety acts and songmongers, would occasionally introduce a scene from Ancient Mythology.  One such was almost certainly the Pythia who frequented the Temple of Apollo at Delphi.  The following has been selected from Wikipedia's page on the subject at *Pythia - Wikipedia* .  "One of the main stories claimed that the Pythia delivered oracles in a frenzied state induced by vapours rising from a chasm in the rock, and that she spoke gibberish which priests interpreted as the enigmatic prophecies and turned them into poetic dactylic hexameters preserved in Greek literature."  The fact that she did so without benefit of much in the way of clothing tended to make this a popular item in the halls, I imagine.

Pythia became Piffy and her rock chasm became in folk memory a rock bun -- and we wouldn't want it any other way.

Matti


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## James Brandon

Matti, Piffy will never die, that is for sure, and is probably more famous now than ever before, also outside the phrase's region of origin, thanks to this thread and to the internet. 

Your explanation is interesting and there are indeed parallels between Piffy and Pythia. But Piffy does not broadcast oracles and predictions. Piffy merely sits on that rock bun, waiting for something or other... 

Anyway, interesting possible origin. I am not in a position to judge whether it is accurate or not.


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## Chasint

I'd never heard  of Piffy before this thread . It seems the name has a history of being used as a pet name - both for children and animals.

Mr. Rankin wasn't such a dried-up little bean as Mr. Pardee was. So Jibby told me to come over to his house, and when I got there the rest of the boys were there and so was *Piffy Rankin*, Mr. Rankin's son.
Jibby Jones and the Alligator: The Story of the Young ... - Page 120
Jibby Jones and the Alligator
Ellis Parker Butler - *1924*

poodles' understandings, and time which was going on still to impress them on the minds of the servants, and the rest of man and woman kind in and outside of Blundle Hall, by whom they were abbreviated into Itchy, Waggy, Musty, and *Piffy*
The Chickenborough Chit-Chat Club - Volume 1 - Page 192
The Chickenborough Chit-Chat Club
Kamouraska - *1877* - ‎Read - ‎More editions


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## ewie

Matti Lamprhey said:


> Pythia became Piffy and her rock chasm became in folk memory a rock bun -- and we wouldn't want it any other way.




I'm also not in a position to judge its accuracy.
But if turns out that it _is_ accurate, I'll eat every hat in Europe, Africa, Asia, Latin America, and Antarctica.  Twice.


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## Trochfa

My Dad, who was from the Manchester area, told us that in this phrase "piffy" just means icing sugar, as Wandle and others have said. It is saying that the person is just like a light dusting of icing sugar on a rock bun (i.e. 'Decorative' in a sarcastic manner, but not of much, if any, practical use. In other words the person is just sitting/standing there not doing anything.)

From the Manchester Evening News, under the section on Salford. (My Dad's Mum was from Salford):
*6.* *Saying/ word: *Like piffy on a rock bun
_Meaning: Used for someone hanging around with no purpose
Phrases and sayings you are likely to hear across Greater Manchester






https://www.tasteandsmile.com/recipe/snowball-rock-cakes_


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## James Brandon

Trochfa, this is very interesting and very specific, in that you have a quote and a definition, clearly linked to the geographical area we have identified before (Manchester and NW England). I have not re-read the entire Thread, but I think we have not had anything as specific as your contribution before, in terms of trying to trace and explain the phrase. On balance, your explanation seems more plausible than the one involving Pythia...


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## jimbojim

Hi all, just found this thread - I am from Collyhurst Manchester originally, first heard this saying "don"t just stand there like piffy" at the Hulme Hippadrome by a music hall comedian to his "stooge" I must have been around 6 years old in the 1950s, the stooge (straight man) I think may have been  Len Bone (no teeth) or Eli Woods (tall and lanky) but am not sure - Another person to use Piffy was Hylda Baker (born in Farnworth near Bolton) and also a phrase "what are you doing stood standing there" Piffy also used by Jimmy Jewel and Ben Warris, comedy duo 40s and 50s performing in and around the Manchester area and Piffy is well known in and around Manchester in particular - don`t know where it came from, but my understanding was it was meant to mean useless, waste of space or non entity - Hope this helps a little !
Cheers


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## James Brandon

Thanks, and this confirms what has been said before, and the fact the expression seems centred on the Manchester area of NW England. (After 13 years, this Thread is still alive and well, it seems!)

The versions you quote refer to '*standing* there like piffey'; the version I initially came across was '*sitting* around like piffey', but there could be variations and it would be a minor issue. 'Standing like piffey' makes me think of the expression, 'to stand around *like a lemon*'.


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## jimbojim

Hi James B - I remember quite a few variations of Piffy and all of them were used in a derogatory meaning, Hylda Baker used various versions in the 1968 series "nearest and dearest" in which she played Nellie Pledge at "pledges pickles" with Jimmy Jewel, my aunt was a cleaner at the "Free Trade Hall" in Manchester city center and then at the "Opera House" She met a lot of the then music hall "stars" of that era, this is bringing back an awful lot of memories, thanks for that !
Cheers


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## James Brandon

Glad the Thread has achieved that! When there is an expression that someone you know (or knew) often uses (or used), and you hear it, it takes you straight back to that person and situation -- and it can be 20 or 40 years later... I know what you mean. The expression gets identified with that person, more particularly if no one else you know used it (or used it often).


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## James Brandon

Quinion dwells on the expression, as I have found today, here; you will notice that he does use 'stand' and not (only) 'sit' in the phrase he quotes:-

_World Wide Words: Piffy on a rock bun_

Extracts below:-

*a rock bun, despite its name, is actually a cake — the more common British English term is rock cake 

it refers to a person who is being left out, ignored, or kept hanging about pointlessly. (Americans might say that they are sitting “like a bump on a log”, though this suggests somebody who is stupidly silent rather than one who is being ignored.) *


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## Bitti Morkin

James Brandon said:


> Good Threads are like good wine: they get better as they age... I believe this one has been resurrected a few times already. [Post #1 goes back to...........................2006.]
> 
> As I remember, the conclusion arrived at was that it was British English, and more particularly NW England, although there was not even any consensus about that.
> 
> See Wandle's comment (07/2013): 'piffey' would seem to be local dialect for something totally different, i.e. nothing to do with a puffin. I can undestand the link you are making, based on phonetics more than anything else, but I suspect this would be a folk etymology, and the truth is to be found somewhere else, i.e. in dialectal use with a local term that has nothing to do with puffins. But this is an educated guess -- educated since based on what various contributors have said, including some who were familiar with the expression.



Piffy is a dialect word for icing.


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## James Brandon

Thanks. I don't remember whether anyone has mentioned that before. So, 'piffy on a rock bun' would be, 'icing on the cake'. In terms of the image and the logic of the expression, it would work well. I suppose the spelling could be 'piffy' or 'piffey' and would not be a key issue, here.


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## Loob

Bitti Morkin said:


> Piffy is a dialect word for icing.


In which part of the country, Bitti?

@James Brandon. Yes, icing has been mentioned before.  See the following:


Seb2921 said:


> My mum in Manchester used this expression a lot, to mean sitting around doing nothing when you should in fact be doing something. I was always told that 'piffy' was icing [...]





wandle said:


> When growing up in a middle-class milieu in south Lancashire, as it then was, between Liverpool and Manchester, I never heard of piffy.
> This page has the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have discussed "stood there like piffy" on another forum and our Lancashire members assured us that the original phrase was "like piffy on a rock bun".
> Piffy, apparently, is a local dialect word for icing sugar.[...]
Click to expand...




Trochfa said:


> My Dad, who was from the Manchester area, told us that in this phrase "piffy" just means icing sugar, as Wandle and others have said. [...]


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## Wes Harding

How Do everybody? I realise I'm coming to this discussion quite late, but I just wanted to add my knowledge of the expression. I was born in Liverpool and most of my family are from Liverpool (though most of them have moved away now). As far as I can tell, it's a pretty common expression in Liverpool, but is "left like Piffy on a rock" no mention of cakes. My Mum used to use it a lot when I was a kid. It's meaning (in our family at least) was to be left hanging around or being stood up by somebody else, who either didn't show up or came very late. Thus you were "left like Piffy on a rock" not knowing what to do and feeling a bit daft. I've never heard it used for just hanging about doing nothing or not helping when others are working. When I was a young child, My Mum, Dad and Me, moved to the suburbs between Stockport and Manchester, where it was also a common expression, but with the addition of "cake" after the word rock (which used to infuriate my Mum!) She was never much of a fan of Stockport in particular. Being a fast talking Scouser, she thought Stopfordians (as people from Stockport are known) sounded slow and (sorry Stopfordians) a bit thick. I have never met a Southener who knew the expression. When I asked my Missus (who is from High Wycombe) about it, she gave me a very strange look and asked if I was winding her up? So, it definitely seems to be a NW England (I would say mainly Lancashire and Cheshire). As to it's origins and who or what Piffy/Piffey/Piffie is or was, I have no idea! I would like to know though as it's an expression I'm quite fond of and seems, sadly, to be falling out of use, except with the older generation. I'm going to make a point of trying to use it at work and see what kind of reaction I get. Maybe I'll come back and let you know. Stay safe when you go out and for God's sake, take your coat off in the house or you'll not feel the benefit when you go out! (Did anyone else's Mum constantly tell them that?) Also, put wood in th'ole (close the door!) Were you born in a barn? (I could fill a whole page with Mumisms!) Wes.


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## James Brandon

I will not re-read the entire Thread, but most contributors familiar with the expression have definitely been English, and, specifically, from the North of England, and, more particularly, from North-Western England, and, particularly, as I recall, from the Manchester area/ Lancashire. So, what Wes says is detailed and interesting, as it adds a Liverpool angle. What is interesting, too, is that he is able to discuss the meaning in detail and has first-hand experience of the use of the expression (since he is quoting his mother). All of this confirms that the expression is not known or used in Southern England.

Wes can provide added insight because he has discussed the expression previously (with his mother and with his wife): but, in fact, this happens with memorable and unusual expressions! We can end up thinking a lot about them and talking about them to an unexpected degree, making them even more memorable...

The meaning Wes gives is pretty much the idea of 'standing around like a lemon', with the added idea that, in certain cases, it refers to being stood up (and, in effect, if someone stands you up, you are left hanging around, if only waiting for him or her). Could it be the case that 'left like Piffy on a rock' is merely a shortened version of 'left like Piffy on a rock bun', whereby the 'bun' bit would have been lost and people would have assumed, when (re-) using the phrase, that it referred to Piffy, some obscure and comical character, sitting literally on 'a rock'.

The Thread has established that 'piffy' means 'icing sugar', I believe, and 'rock' refers to 'a rock bun', hence the idea of the icing on the cake.

As to the origin of 'piffy', it may be explained somewhere deep in this multi-annual Thread, but it sounds to me like a dialectal term for 'icing sugar' or something similar, but this is just a guess on my part.

Anyway, great insight into the expression, its use, its meaning and its origin, Wes. Thank you for that.

PS If you use it with colleagues in Southern England, I reckon you will get a lot of blank looks.

_____________

*See March 2018, above, Trochfa said:-*

_My Dad, who was from the Manchester area, told us that in this phrase "piffy" just means icing sugar, as Wandle and others have said. It is saying that the person is just like a light dusting of icing sugar on a rock bun (i.e. 'Decorative' in a sarcastic manner, but not of much, if any, practical use. In other words the person is just sitting/standing there not doing anything.)

From the Manchester Evening News, under the section on Salford. (My Dad's Mum was from Salford):
6. Saying/ word: Like piffy on a rock bun
Meaning: Used for someone hanging around with no purpose
Phrases and sayings you are likely to hear across Greater Manchester _


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