# Clause Union in Romance and Information Structure



## Aoidhghean

Just out of curiosity, given that phrases featuring clause union are simplex in Romance (Spanish in particular), how can one express focalisation of one of the predicates (the light or the main verb) given the fact that the two clauses figuring in the syntax are conflated (or, as the glossary of generative grammar says, "the embedded clause gets eliminated")? Maybe it's tied to the fact that clause union can't be easily dealt with in unification grammars but still, how can one account for the difference between, say, _I *made* him cry_ and _I made him *cry*_ (the focussed predicate is typeset in bold) in a language with clause union (preferably Spanish or Catalan for I speak them)?


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## Forero

I don't understand what clause is being eliminated here, or what you mean by "clause union", but I think emphasis can be put in the same places, to the same effect, in the Spanish translation of your example sentence:

_Lo *hice* llorar.
Lo hice *llorar*._


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## Nino83

In Italian there's no difference, the accent is always on the infinitive. It happens with every auxiliar and modal verb. Stress always falls on the semantic verb, not on the auxiliar verb.
_Lo ha fatto *piangere*_. _Non è potuto *venire*_. _Lo ha *fatto*_. 
It seems to me that also native Spanish and Portuguese speakers follow this rule.


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## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> In Italian there's no difference, the accent is always on the infinitive. It happens with every auxiliar and modal verb. Stress always falls on the semantic verb, not on the auxiliar verb.
> _Lo ha fatto *piangere*_. _Non è potuto *venire*_. _Lo ha *fatto*_.
> It seems to me that also native Spanish and Portuguese speakers follow this rule.


I'm not so sure that the accent always falls on the semantic verb in Spanish.  Note the different flow between
_Le hice llorar_  versus  _Hice que llorase_.


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## jmx

Focalisation with change of word order is also possible in Spanish, for example:

A - ¿Dices que le hiciste reír?
B - ¡llorar le hice!

Or perhaps more clearly:

B - ¡llorar es lo que le hice!





Aoidhghean said:


> ... phrases featuring clause union are simplex in Romance ...


I'd like to understand that.


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## Nino83

jmx said:


> B - ¡llorar le hice!


In Italian the stress is on the semantic verb also in this case. 
"*Pia*ngere l'ho fatto!"


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## jmx

Yes, in Spanish the focalized element is typically pronounced in a very emphatic way too; otherwise, the sentence could easily be misunderstood.


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## Aoidhghean

Forero said:


> I don't understand what clause is being eliminated here, or what you mean by "clause union", but I think emphasis can be put in the same places, to the same effect, in the Spanish translation of your example sentence:
> 
> _Lo *hice* llorar.
> Lo hice *llorar*._


Google it up then. It's a syntactically monoclausal phrase with two (or more) semantic events.


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## Aoidhghean

Nino83 said:


> In Italian there's no difference, the accent is always on the infinitive. It happens with every auxiliar and modal verb. Stress always falls on the semantic verb, not on the auxiliar verb.
> _Lo ha fatto *piangere*_. _Non è potuto *venire*_. _Lo ha *fatto*_.
> It seems to me that also native Spanish and Portuguese speakers follow this rule.


The question isn't about stress, it's about information structure, i.e. pragmatics. BTW you're wrong, in Italian the light verb can be stressed but that's only an epiphenomenon irrelevant to the question.


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## Aoidhghean

jmx said:


> Focalisation with change of word order is also possible in Spanish, for example:
> 
> A - ¿Dices que le hiciste reír?
> B - ¡llorar le hice!
> 
> Or perhaps more clearly:
> 
> B - ¡llorar es lo que le hice!
> ...
> I'd like to understand that.


Nice examples, especially the first one (the second one isn't monoclausal but it's nice to see how it still works in Spanish). As for clause union, it'd be best to read the original paper which is concerned with Spanish (but not pragmatics). it can be googled up.


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## Aoidhghean

Nino83 said:


> In Italian the stress is on the semantic verb also in this case.
> "*Pia*ngere l'ho fatto!"


In this case it coincides with the focus so it's not really surprising.


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## Nino83

Aoidhghean said:


> The question isn't about stress


The reply of Forero is. He applies the English stress pattern to the Romance languages and it is not correct to do so because they're different.


Aoidhghean said:


> it's about information structure


Which works differently in English and in Italian.


Aoidhghean said:


> BTW you're wrong


Actually it seems you don't know how the information structure works in Italian.
In English you just stress the word that brings the new information, in Italian we change word order, like in Spanish.
Who read the book? *John* read the book.
What did John read? John read *a book*.
Chi ha letto il libro?
a) Il libro l'ha letto *Giovanni*. => normal pattern with left dislocation of the object and stress at the end of the sentence.
b) *Giovanni* ha letto il libro. => marked stress pattern with the focus and the stress at the beginning of the  sentence.
Cosa ha letto Giovanni?
a) Giovanni ha letto *un libro*. => normal pattern with the stress at the end of the sentence. As in many languages normally the subject is the topic/theme and the object is the focus/rheme.
b) *Un libro* ha letto Giovanni. => marked stress pattern with the focus and the stress at the beginning of the sentence.
If you want to stress the verb.
What did John do? He *read* a book.
Cosa ha fatto Giovanni? Giovanni *ha letto*. Giovanni ha letto *un libro*.
As you can see the stress in Italian falls on the last word of the sentence which is the focus. In marked sentences (focalization) the focus is placed first and it is stressed.
If you want to stress the verb when there is a full nominal direct object you've to change the order of the sentence.
Ti sbagli! Giovanni il libro l'ha *letto*! => left dislocation of the object and the verb at the *end* of the sentence.
L'ha *letto* il libro Giovanni! => right dislocation of the object, focus and stress at the beginning of the sentence.
In other words in Italian the stress is at the end (normal pattern) or at the beginning (marked pattern, focalization) of the sentence, not in the middle.
Other stress patterns are simply unnatural and you will sound like a foreigner.


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## Forero

Nino83 said:


> The reply of Forero is. He applies the English stress pattern to the Romance languages and it is not correct to do so because they're different.


This statement may be too broad. Not all Romance languages have the same stress patterns, and I was talking about Spanish as I believe I have heard it.

I would like to hear a native Spanish speaker's translations of your Italian sentences. They may surprise both of us.


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## Nino83

Another possibility would be: _Ti sbagli! Giovanni *l*'ha letto(,) il libro_ (lit. You're wrong! John *it* has read(,) the book) where the relevant and complete sentence is _Giovanni l'ha letto_ and the theme is right-dislocated.
What is sure is that we normally don't say _Giovanni *ha letto* il libro_, like it is said in English.


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## merquiades

Nino83 said:


> Another possibility would be: _Ti sbagli! Giovanni *l*'ha letto(,) il libro_ (lit. You're wrong! John *it* has read(,) the book) where the relevant and complete sentence is _Giovanni l'ha letto_ and the theme is right-dislocated.
> What is sure is that we normally don't say _Giovanni *ha letto* il libro_, like it is said in English.


I wouldn't say it is normal in English either just to say  Giovanni REEAAD the book, and really stress one word loudly like that
Yes Giovanni did indeed read that book, he didn't throw it out the window.

Il a lu le livre, Giovanni, il ne l'a pas jeté par la fenêtre.
C'est Giovanni qui l'a lu, pas Luigi.
C'est le livre que Giovanni a lu, non pas la lettre.

No ha leído el libro, Giovanni, lo ha tirado por la ventana.
Es Giovanni que lo ha leído, no Luigi
Es el libro que ha leído Giovanni, no la carta


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## Aoidhghean

Forero said:


> This statement may be too broad. Not all Romance languages have the same stress patterns, and I was talking about Spanish as I believe I have heard it.
> 
> I would like to hear a native Spanish speaker's translations of your Italian sentences. They may surprise both of us.


My girlfriend is a native speaker of Spanish. I just asked. You are right, Nino’s wrong.


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## Aoidhghean

Nino83 said:


> The reply of Forero is. He applies the English stress pattern to the Romance languages and it is not correct to do so because they're different.
> 
> Which works differently in English and in Italian.
> 
> Actually it seems you don't know how the information structure works in Italian.
> In English you just stress the word that brings the new information, in Italian we change word order, like in Spanish.
> Who read the book? *John* read the book.
> What did John read? John read *a book*.
> Chi ha letto il libro?
> a) Il libro l'ha letto *Giovanni*. => normal pattern with left dislocation of the object and stress at the end of the sentence.
> b) *Giovanni* ha letto il libro. => marked stress pattern with the focus and the stress at the beginning of the  sentence.
> Cosa ha letto Giovanni?
> a) Giovanni ha letto *un libro*. => normal pattern with the stress at the end of the sentence. As in many languages normally the subject is the topic/theme and the object is the focus/rheme.
> b) *Un libro* ha letto Giovanni. => marked stress pattern with the focus and the stress at the beginning of the sentence.
> If you want to stress the verb.
> What did John do? He *read* a book.
> Cosa ha fatto Giovanni? Giovanni *ha letto*. Giovanni ha letto *un libro*.
> As you can see the stress in Italian falls on the last word of the sentence which is the focus. In marked sentences (focalization) the focus is placed first and it is stressed.
> If you want to stress the verb when there is a full nominal direct object you've to change the order of the sentence.
> Ti sbagli! Giovanni il libro l'ha *letto*! => left dislocation of the object and the verb at the *end* of the sentence.
> L'ha *letto* il libro Giovanni! => right dislocation of the object, focus and stress at the beginning of the sentence.
> In other words in Italian the stress is at the end (normal pattern) or at the beginning (marked pattern, focalization) of the sentence, not in the middle.
> Other stress patterns are simply unnatural and you will sound like a foreigner.


Are you sure you know what information structure is and how it interacts with stress and tune? What you said seems to be roughly true of nonemotive sentences but in Italian - as in other Romance languages - the focus can always be marked by intonation. The original question was concerned with how this is done in monoclausal clause unions. I think it was sufficiently answered.


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## Nino83

If you want to sound like a German you can surely say "Giovanni l'*ha* fatto andare via" and "Giovanni l'ha *fatto* andare". I've nothing to say about this subject.


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## Aoidhghean

Nino83 said:


> If you want to sound like a German you can surely say "Giovanni l'*ha* fatto andare via" and "Giovanni l'ha *fatto* andare". I've nothing to say about this subject.


Stressing function words was not the point. Forero provided nice examples which also work in Italian so the question can be considered answered.


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