# using 'ser' with location



## Ms Missy

The following appeared in a workbook exercise:

1.  ¿Donde es la clase de fisica?
2.  La clase de fisica es en el laboratoria.
3.  Aquí es donde vivo.
4.  Nuestra casa es en Barcelona.

The rule given for using a conjugation of ser instead of estar was that _"Occasionally ser is used in sentences involving location when the place or site is really the implied predicate pronoun."_ 

I find this very confusing so my question is whether this rule is strictly adhered to by native Spanish speakers?  In other words, would it be completely incorrect to substitute estar for ser in these constructions?


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## NewdestinyX

Ms Missy said:


> The following appeared in a workbook exercise:
> 
> 1.  ¿Donde es la clase de fisica?
> 2.  La clase de fisica es en el laboratoria.
> 3.  Aquí es donde vivo.
> 4.  Nuestra casa es en Barcelona.
> 
> The rule given for using a conjugation of ser instead of estar was that _"Occasionally ser is used in sentences involving location when the place or site is really the implied predicate pronoun."_
> 
> I find this very confusing so my question is whether this rule is strictly adhered to by native Spanish speakers?  In other words, would it be completely incorrect to substitute estar for ser in these constructions?



I disagree with numbers 3 and 4. They should only be 'estar'. The first two are correct and normal.

The idea is to use 'estar' for the location of something or some person. 
And use 'ser' for the 'place of an event'. 

#2 is about the location of an event, if you think of the class as an event to take place. So 'ser' is normal and usual in my experience. #3 and #4 talk about the location of something -- not an event. They should be 'estar'. #1 seems like it could go either way -- but you usually hear 'Dónde está....'.. I can say that from my training and grammar books they rarely are interchangeable. Let's see what the natives tell us.

Un saludo,
Grant


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## coquis14

1. ¿Donde es la clase de fisica?
2. La clase de fisica es en el laboratoria.
3. Aquí es donde vivo. Here is more common say "es"
4. Nuestra casa es en Barcelona

You can say " donde esta la clase de fisica , ...esta en Barcelona ,... esta en Barcelona" all are ok everybody will understand what are you talking about.


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## patiesmiz

1st case- it means: Where will the lesson take place? 
2nd one- The lesson will take place in the laboratory.

-so 1st and 2nd case are correct: ES

Note "clase" means "the act of teaching and learning", and "the room where it takes place". In this case, as a room, we will say "Dónde está la clase de física?", but we can' say 'La clase de física está en el laboratorio', it would be incorrect cos a room can't be into another room. We could say "La clase de fisica está en el segundo piso" -la clase, as a room, ¡s on second floor.- 

3rd case is correct, "here is where I live"

4th one is incorrect, we say 'Nuestra casa ESTÁ en Barcelona", -an object and its location-


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## Ms Missy

NewdestinyX said:


> I disagree with numbers 3 and 4. They should only be 'estar'. The first two are correct and normal.
> 
> The idea is to use 'estar' for the location of something or some person.
> And use 'ser' for the 'place of an event'.
> 
> #2 is about the location of an event, if you think of the class as an event to take place. So 'ser' is normal and usual in my experience. #3 and #4 talk about the location of something -- not an event. They should be 'estar'. #1 seems like it could go either way -- but you usually hear 'Dónde está....'.. I can say that from my training and grammar books they rarely are interchangeable. Let's see what the natives tell us.
> 
> Un saludo,
> Grant


 
Grant, this is how the justification for #3 and #4 was explained ...

3.  Aquí es donde vivo.  (Here is (the place) where I live).
4.  Nuestra casa es en Barcelona.  (Our home is (in) Barcelona.  (Barcelona is the site of our home).


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## Ms Missy

coquis14 said:


> 1. ¿Donde es la clase de fisica?
> 2. La clase de fisica es en el laboratoria.
> 3. Aquí es donde vivo. Here is more common say "es"
> 4. Nuestra casa es en Barcelona
> 
> You can say " donde esta la clase de fisica , ...esta en Barcelona ,... esta en Barcelona" all are ok everybody will understand what are you talking about.


 
Thanks!  I think I'll continue with 'estar' until I have a better understanding of the rule with 'ser.'  I'm studying on my own, so I don't have to worry about getting it wrong on a test!


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## patiesmiz

3. Aquí *es* donde vivo.

Correct, where I live -event-, the act of living and its location.


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## NewdestinyX

Ms Missy said:


> Grant, this is how the justification for #3 and #4 was explained ...
> 
> 3.  Aquí es donde vivo.  (Here is (the place) where I live).
> 4.  Nuestra casa es en Barcelona.  (Our home is (in) Barcelona.  (Barcelona is the site of our home).



Yes -- I can see #3 being -- the place.. But #4 is still incorrect for me.. and it seems for other natives too. With 'SER' -- is had to emphasize 'the place' but it usually also is about 'an event'. At least that's what my studies and chats with natives have shown me.

Grant


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## patiesmiz

Exactly, 4th case is incorrect, cos it's the only case related to an object and its location.
It's ESTAR.

1st, 2nd and 3rd ones are events -1st and 2nd one: the act of teaching and learning", 3rd one: the act of living.
All of them are SER

(Oh, Jesus, forgive me for my English...)


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## NewdestinyX

patiesmiz said:


> Exactly, 4th case is incorrect, cos 'cause it's the only case related to an object and its location.
> It's ESTAR.
> 
> 1st, 2nd and 3rd ones are events -1st and 2nd one: the act of teaching and learning", 3rd one: the act of living.
> All of them are SER
> 
> (Oh, Jesus, forgive me for my English...)



Thanks Patie -- that's a good way to explain it!! Your English was perfect!

Un saludo,
Grant


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## patiesmiz

yess, my fault, I'm used to chat and write "elsewhere" and sometimes my English sucks, hahaha
Apologies for that "cos" -well, didn't write 'cuz', at least...


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## normaelena

Ms Missy said:


> [
> 3.  Aquí es donde vivo.
> 
> #3 correct, why?
> 
> It is about where actions take place; not about places, per se. Look at the following examples: (You can consider them as life events.)
> 
> Aquí es donde yo como. Here is where I eat.
> 
> Allí es donde ella se ducha. There is where she takes a shower.
> 
> Aquí está mi casa. Aquí es donde vivo. Here is my house. Here is where I live.
> 
> normaelena


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## patiesmiz

No, where I live. I live is an event, same as I take a shower. You live in a house and you take a shower in the bathroom. Or you can live in the street being a homeless, and take a shower under a fall.


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## Bocha

Hola:

1. ¿Donde es la clase de fisica?

This one is OK. Meaning Where is the lesson taking place?


3. Aquí es donde vivo.
Correct. 
Aquí está donde vivo.

4. Nuestra casa es en Barcelona.
This one is possible, Barcelona is the place where we belong.
It is not a specific reference to the location of the house but to the place where we consider we should live in.

_Nuestra casa está en Barcelona._
_Nuestra casa queda en Barcelona._

These ones make specific reference to the location of the building.


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## dexterciyo

Bocha said:


> 4. Nuestra casa es en Barcelona.
> This one is possible, Barcelona is the place where we belong.
> It is not a specific reference to the location of the house but to the place where we consider we should live in.
> 
> _Nuestra casa está en Barcelona._
> _Nuestra casa queda en Barcelona._
> 
> These ones make specific reference to the location of the building.



I agree with this.

I wouldn't thought _to be_ verb could be that tough to be explained. I wouldn't know how to do it myself...


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## patiesmiz

Notice this, both sentences are correct:

Nuestra casa ESTÁ en Barcelona.

Nuesto hogar ES Barcelona.

House/home: casa/hogar have not same meaning necessarily.

You can say: Nuestro hogar ESTÁ en Barcelona, and Nuestro hogar ES Barcelona, whereas you can't say Nuestra casa ES EN Barcelona (absolutely incorrect): you say ESTÁ EN.

Home (hogar) might be used as 'the place where I belong' -in some abstract way-. House is an object, only.


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## NewdestinyX

patiesmiz said:


> You can say: Nuestro hogar ESTÁ en Barcelona, and Nuestro hogar ES Barcelona, whereas you can't say Nuestra casa ES EN Barcelona (absolutely incorrect): you say ESTÁ EN.



But you can say "La fiesta *es en* el club esta noche.".. So the issue is not 'en'.


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## Ms Missy

normaelena said:


> Ms Missy said:
> 
> 
> 
> [
> 3. Aquí es donde vivo.
> 
> #3 correct, why?
> 
> It is about where actions take place; not about places, per se. Look at the following examples: (You can consider them as life events.)
> 
> Aquí es donde yo como. Here is where I eat.
> 
> Allí es donde ella se ducha. There is where she takes a shower.
> 
> Aquí está mi casa. Aquí es donde vivo. Here is my house. Here is where I live.
> 
> normaelena
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent examples, normaelena!  It's beginning to make sense and I'm  understanding it a bit more.  My initial problem was that I had NEVER heard of _ser_ being used in reference to location, so I was totally caught off guard when I came across this one!  As for #4 ... one thing we must keep in mind is that just because it's written in a textbook, it doesn't mean that it's beyond questioning.  (Although I wouldn't be surprised if a native speaker eventually comes along and agrees with that construction)!  That's one of the _many_ things I love about this forum!
Click to expand...


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## patiesmiz

Newdestiny you are right when you say the issue is not "EN". The issue is that House is an object, not an event.

Btw, strange a Spaniard, like dexterciyo, says "Nuestra casa ES en Barcelona" might be a correct sentence: it's absolutely incorrect, as stated above, and doesn't make any sense.

About "la fiesta es en", it means la fiesta takes place in.... Nuesto hogar ES Barcelona means our home= Barcelona.

You can say: 'Mi hogar es Barcelona', and 'Barcelona es mi hogar'. Both sentences are exactly same, and both are correct.

(Barcelona is my home, and my home is Barcelona)


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## yodired

Yo honestamente creo que nosotros decimos:

"Mi casa QUEDA en barcelona"

En inglés no hay verbo para "quedar": se usa "to be"

My house is in Barcelona


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## normaelena

patiesmiz said:


> No, where I live. I live is an event, same as I take a shower. You live in a house and you take a shower in the bathroom. Or you can live in the street being a homeless, and take a shower under a fall.



No, what? What are you talking about?


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## NewdestinyX

patiesmiz said:


> About "la fiesta es en", it means la fiesta takes place in.... Nuesto hogar ES Barcelona means our home= Barcelona.



Yes but we've been discussing 'location' syntaxes. Both 'ser' and 'estar' are used to speak of 'location'. In 'Nuestro hogar 'es' Barcelona' there is no 'location' being discussed. It is simply a declaration of 'feeling' to the speaker. This is always done with 'ser'.

I don't know why someone would ever think #4 was correct. It's not.

Grant


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## patiesmiz

Nuestra casa queda en... no es muy corriente aquí, es mucho más corriente decir Nuestra casa está en ...


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## yodired

patiesmiz said:


> Nuestra casa queda en... no es muy corriente aquí, es mucho más corriente decir Nuestra casa está en ...


 
No pasa lo mismo en Venezuela.

Es más común usar el verbo "quedar" cuando se habla de la ubicación de algún lugar.

En este caso, en inglés se una el verbo "to be", por eso creo que este verbo (en español de Venezuela, por lo menos) debe significarse "ser, estar o quedar", dependiendo del contexto.

Where's your house? Sería traducida como "¿dónde queda tu casa?


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## patiesmiz

normaelena said:


> No, what? What are you talking about?



I'm talking about events, and case nº 3 is an event (living), so don't know why you think ES is not correct in that case. You say:


> 3. Aquí es donde vivo.
> 
> #3 correct, why?


That's why I said, to try to explain the sense, that the act of living, or the act of taking showers, can take place in different places. So the verb to use is SER.

And Ms Missy says:



> 4. Nuestra casa es en Barcelona. (Our home is (in) Barcelona. (Barcelona is the site of our home).


That's why I say home (Hogar) and House (casa) have not same meaning in Spanish necessarily.

Honestly, i think NewdestinyX is the only one who understand the difference between events and objects in this case.

As I said: teaching/learning, and living are events. Houses are objects. So 4th case IS NOT correct, as he says.


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## Ms Missy

dexterciyo said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I wouldn't _have _thought _to be_ verb could be that tough to be explained. I wouldn't know how to do it myself...


 
I know exactly what you mean!  There are so many constructions that we take for granted in our native tongue, so it never occurs to us that it might cause problems to someone just learning the language.  On the 'English Only' forum I've seen much confusion about 'in a car' versus 'on a plane.'  I know the difference, but wouldn't know how to explain it to someone just learning the language.  So again ... kudos to the forum!  I find the responses of _real people_ much more helpful than the anonymous authors of textbooks! 

Missy


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## dexterciyo

patiesmiz said:


> Btw, strange a Spaniard, like dexterciyo, says "Nuestra casa ES en Barcelona" is a correct sentence: it's absolutely incorrect, as stated above, and doesn't make any sense.



It may make no sense to you, it does to me.

I absolutely agree that it won't be that common. There you are right. But, what if you get that sentence in a poetic way? Will you get that surprised?

"Mi casa es en donde la armonía y la paz se encuentran".

Sometimes it is not always about rules.


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## yodired

dexterciyo said:


> It may make no sense to you, it does to me.
> 
> I absolutely agree that it won't be that common. There you are right. But, what if you get that sentence in a poet way? Will you get that surprised?
> 
> "Mi casa es en donde la armonía y la paz se encuentran".
> 
> Sometimes it is not always about rules.


 
I find this wrong in spanish.

Tú no puedes decir "Mi apartamento ES en aquel edifico, sino, mi apartamente queda o está en aquel edificio. (Queda es mejor)


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## patiesmiz

dexterciyo said:


> It may make no sense to you, it does to me.
> 
> I absolutely agree that it won't be that common. There you are right. But, what if you get that sentence in a poetic way? Will you get that surprised?
> 
> "Mi casa es en donde la armonía y la paz se encuentran".
> 
> Sometimes it is not always about rules.



Thanks, dexterciyo, for enlightening me


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## yodired

patiesmiz said:


> Thanks, dexterciyo, for enlighten*ing* me


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## patiesmiz

Sorry, I was confused.
Someone has enlightened me and I found out that the sentence:

*"Mi casa es en Barcelona"* is correct.

Forgive me for my ingnorance.


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## dexterciyo

yodired said:


> I find this wrong in Spanish.
> 
> Tú no puedes decir "Mi apartamento ES en aquel edifico, sino, mi apartamente queda o está en aquel edificio. (Queda es mejor)



Vuelve a leer mi respuesta. Yo no he dicho que eso, que dices tú que yo he dicho, sea cierto. Creo que no te ha quedado claro... 


P.S. Glad to enlighten you, *patiesmiz*


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## Ms Missy

yodired said:


> Yo honestamente creo que nosotros decimos:
> 
> "Mi casa QUEDA en barcelona"
> 
> En inglés no hay verbo para "quedar": se usa "to be"
> 
> My house is in Barcelona


 
I was just going through some other references on this subject, and came across one titled, "Quedar as a substitute for Estar."  There were several sub-titles listed (to describe the resultant state of an action; to indicate the fit or appearance of clothing), but the one that applies to this subject is "To denote Location."  The example given was: ¿Dónde queda la estacion? = Where is the station?

My point is that it appears that 'quedar' can be used as a substitute for ESTAR, but not for SER.  Ay, Dios mio ... I think I'll put this one on the back burner for now!


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## yodired

Ms Missy said:


> (...) My point is that it appears that 'quedar' can be used as a substitute for ESTAR, but not for SER. (...)


 
That's right, my dear *Ms Missy.*


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## patiesmiz

dexterciyo said:


> Vuelve a leer mi respuesta. Yo no he dicho que eso, que dices tú que yo he dicho, sea cierto. Creo que no te ha quedado claro...
> 
> 
> P.S. Glad to enlighten you, *patiesmiz*



Si pudieras decir exactamente lo que quieres decir de una forma clara y sencilla te estaríamos muy agradecidos.
En cuanto a decir que uno ha dicho lo que no ha dicho, me parece que tú eres un experto en ese tema.
Y por cierto, a veces tanta ilustración lo que crea es confusión, hasta tal punto que incluso yo, que hablo Español -no tan perfecto como el tuyo, por supuesto- a día de hoy aún no sé si "Mi casa es en Barcelona" se dice o no se dice. No si de dijo o no se dijo, o si se podría decir o no, o si se podría haber dicho.

Gracias


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## NewdestinyX

yodired said:


> I find this wrong in spanish.
> 
> Tú no puedes decir "Mi apartamento ES en aquel edifico, sino, mi apartamente queda o está en aquel edificio. (Queda es mejor)



From the information I've read in several grammars -- this use of 'quedar' for 'location of an object' is more regional to Venezuela and I think maybe 'Mexico' and not as common in other regions. So I think a student of Spanish, 'a menos que se muden a Venezuela pronto', should learn to use 'estar' for the location of people and objects.

Maybe other foreros from South America can tell us if 'quedar' is used for 'estar' in your country regularly for this 'location of an object'.

Un saludo,
Grant


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## NewdestinyX

patiesmiz said:


> Sorry, I was confused.
> Someone has enlightened me and I found out that the sentence:
> 
> *"Mi casa es en Barcelona"* is correct.
> 
> Forgive me for my ingnorance.



Don't give up too quickly, Patie -- it may be 'poetic' in usage - but it is surely not common. I will accept that it is 'correct' -- but it should not be taught in a grammar book to students as a 'normal' usage. The 'location of objects and people' = estar -- showing where an event/act takes place = ser

Good discussion,
Grant


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## Jeromed

NewdestinyX said:


> Don't give up too quickly, Patie -- it may be 'poetic' in usage - but it is surely not common. I will accept that it is 'correct' -- but it should not be taught in a grammar book to students as a 'normal' usage. The 'location of objects and people' = estar -- showing where an event/act takes place = ser


 
This is what the RAE's _Esbozo...(3.3.4) _says:

<<b) _Ser_ tuvo en la lengua medieval el significado de situación local, que poco a poco fue absorbido por _estar_: _¿Dónde es la vaquera de la Finojosa?_ (Santillana, _Serranillas_).  Este significado sobrevive hoy en algunas frases como _Aquí es la almodena_; _Mañana seré contigo_; _Por lo tanto, luego que ustedes hayan comido, alargaré mi paseo hasta allá.  No es muy lejos_ (Galdós, _Gloria_, parte I, cap. XXXII).>>

I don't have my B&B with me, but I think they also mention this construction as 'familiar', in certain dialects. I personally have heard it in Latin America.

My conclusion:  It's an archaic usage, which survives in certain dialects and/or expressions.  Students should not be taught that it's is normative, but they should be alerted as to its existence--in case they hear it or read it somewhere.


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## NewdestinyX

Jeromed said:


> This is what the RAE's _Esbozo...(3.3.4) _says:
> 
> <<b) _Ser_ tuvo en la lengua medieval el significado de situación local, que poco a poco fue absorbido por _estar_: _¿Dónde es la vaquera de la Finojosa?_ (Santillana, _Serranillas_).  Este significado sobrevive hoy en algunas frases como _Aquí es la almodena_; _Mañana seré contigo_; _Por lo tanto, luego que ustedes hayan comido, alargaré mi paseo hasta allá.  No es muy lejos_ (Galdós, _Gloria_, parte I, cap. XXXII).>>
> 
> I don't have my B&B with me, but I think they also mention this construction as 'familiar', in certain dialects. I personally have heard it in Latin America.
> 
> My conclusion:  It's an archaic usage, which survives in certain dialects and/or expressions.  Students should not be taught that it's is normative, but they should be alerted as to its existence--in case they hear it or read it somewhere.



jero, let me make sure I understand you -- are you saying that in modern usage -- there is 'no' common and grammatical use of 'ser' for location - for even naming the place of an act or event? I know when I'm in Spain I never hear "El concierto está en el auditorio". You hear 'es' in that sentence. Is that just a familiar you're saying? I thought there was a grammatical distinction between events and things or people. The way I've taught my students is that if they can replace the word 'is' in this type of sentence with the words 'takes place' -- then it is 'ser' for the location. Does that not match your experience?

Grant


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## Jeromed

NewdestinyX said:


> jero, let me make sure I understand you -- are you saying that in modern usage -- there is 'no' common and grammatical use of 'ser' for location - for even naming the place of an act or event? I know when I'm in Spain I never hear "El concierto está en el auditorio". You hear 'es' in that sentence. Is that just a familiar you're saying? I thought there was a grammatical distinction between events and things or people. The way I've taught my students is that if they can replace the word 'is' in this type of sentence with the words 'takes place' -- then it is 'ser' for the location. Does that not match your experience?
> 
> Grant


 
No, I'm not saying that, and neither is the RAE. They're talking about _permanencia, situación o posición local_ (which they clarify in 3.3.4c as one of the main uses of _estar)._  I think we all agree that for events, _es _is the universal choice (Haven't found the pertinent section in the _Esbozo_ yet_, _but no one here is questioning this anyway).


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## NewdestinyX

Jeromed said:


> No, I'm not saying that, and neither is the RAE. They're talking about _permanencia, situación o posición local_ (which they clarify in 3.3.4c as one of the main uses of _estar)._  I think we all agree that for events, _es _is the universal choice (Haven't found the pertinent section in the _Esbozo_ yet_, _but no one here is questioning this anyway).



Ah yes.. Thanks for the clarification. That's clear now.

Grant


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