# old age



## Joca

In nature, most animals don't live much longer beyond their reproductive years. We do, and it seems that year after year we are stretching our longevity. Since there seems to be no biological value in being old, humans may stick to the notion that old age is the domain of wisdom in order to find a reason for their long lives. However, honestly, who wants to learn from our wisdom (I am counting myself an old man, too, though I am still slightly young  )? Do the young people have ears for us? Or do they find us to be old-fashioned? How can we find a genuine reason for justifying old age in humans?

It is not my intention to irritate you with these questions. I just want to know how some of you approach old age without a feeling of frustration.


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## tvdxer

Joca said:


> In nature, most animals don't live much longer beyond their reproductive years. We do, and it seems that year after year we are stretching our longevity. Since there seems to be no biological value in being old, humans may stick to the notion that old age is the domain of wisdom in order to find a reason for their long lives. However, honestly, who wants to learn from our wisdom (I am counting myself an old man, too, though I am still slightly young  )? Do the young people have ears for us? Or do they find us to be old-fashioned? How can we find a genuine reason for justifying old age in humans?
> 
> It is not my intention to irritate you with these questions. I just want to know how some of you approach old age without a feeling of frustration.



I certainly think so.

Many at old age are able to use their "leisure" to volunteer at charities and in the church.

Also, old peoples' stories are usually fun to hear.


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## KateNicole

Many people thoroughly enjoy their golden years.  Most old people that I know are content, with the exception of those who are very ill or lonely . . . but that can happen to young people, too.  A lot of older people enjoy their grandchildren more than they ever did their own.

What about the ever-growing amount of people that chooses not to reproduce?  Should they have never been born or died after making that decision?

I would normally only feel bad for old people that have Alzheimer's or who are abandoned in nursing homes.  Otherwise, I think most of them find day-to-day value and satisfaction in continuing to live.

And I think it's an interesting question and not irritating at all.


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## Primal

I like visiting my grand parents.  I hope they live a long time.  I hope I live a long time so I can visit my grand children a lot.  Humans are a social race.  They take great happiness in visiting their friends and relatives.
My two cents,
Primal


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## Joca

KateNicole said:


> ...
> 
> What about the ever-growing amount of people that chooses not to reproduce? Should they have never been born or died after making that decision?
> 
> ...


 
No, I don't think they should have died. Not at all. This is an interesting observation. But here's another striking difference between humans and animals. Humans can choose not to reproduce, but animals, as far as I know, can't. They must follow their instinct. Well, I am wondering about ants. They are so clever. They live in large societies. Maybe they also developed contraceptive methods. I wouldn't be too surprised.


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## Athaulf

Joca said:


> In nature, most animals don't live much longer beyond their reproductive years. We do, and it seems that year after year we are stretching our longevity. Since there seems to be no biological value in being old, humans may stick to the notion that old age is the domain of wisdom in order to find a reason for their long lives. However, honestly, who wants to learn from our wisdom (I am counting myself an old man, too, though I am still slightly young  )?



The problem today is the rate of social change. In the past, when changes in social customs and lifestyle were much slower, accumulated experiences of the old age were worth much more than today. 

Even today, in the fields of life where the basic rules and facts are staying more or less constant with time, the accumulated experience and wisdom are worth increasingly all until one starts physically deteriorating from old age. But unfortunately, many things are changing rapidly, and past a certain age, people seem to be having increasing difficulties in keeping their outlook on life up to date with them. 



> Do the young people have ears for us? Or do they find us to be old-fashioned?


I hope my answer won't scare you, but I'm in my late 20s and I've already been found hopelessly old-fashioned on occasions.


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## moura

My understanding of people wanting to live the most possible, that is, till a long long long age - why not 100 or more? - bases on the same principle that makes me understand people who don't just want to keep on living. It is just a question of wanting or desire. I know or knew people with long ages. One of them was a man that died last year with 95 years old, I think. Until one year before the serious disease that took him, he was an active man, wanting to know, to make new things, with perspectives in his life. He worked until more or less 91-92 years. 
Some times I see people who are still young and that don't have as many perspectives as this man had. Do these people deserve to live? Of course, as long as they want, but in matters of deserving the old ones don't deserve less. 
I know a woman of 90 years old. She had not an easy life. But fortunately she is still somewhat independent and I manage to see her laughing sometimes, besides talking of politic, of books, of their grandchildren, their grand-grand-children and complaining sometimes about her life also. Is this not a reason to keep on living? Just to laugh. Yes.
I remember my grandparents. With three of them I confess there are not so strong rememberings. But my father's father is an icon for me. I was his favorite grandchildren an in last times he cried at each time we separate. I have a photo by him - I was 3-4 years old, was standing up in a balcony and he was sitted, his head low, doing something for me. He is my favourite grandfather and sometimes I just wanted him to stay yet alife. Is this not also a reason for the old people to stay alife? Because their absence may be so painfull and because their presence may be so good - for them and for us. Long live them.


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## zeatadu

In my country,old age is usually related to sophisticated,experienced,sillful,ect.Most of people are respectful to them.Respect for the old is especially importanct in the family.We call those disrespect to their parents "impiety",and all the friends and people around will show their contempt for the guy.
In my opinion,the old deserves the respect.The world develops with the hard working of one generation after another,thanks to my previous generation who have been gotten old,I could enjoy all sorts of things they never heard of.
Old age is an unusual kind of golden age.If the young age shines with passionate,energetic light,the old age shines with wisdom,mild and tolerance light.


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## moura

zeatadu said:


> If the young age shines with passionate,energetic light,the old age shines with wisdom,mild and tolerance light.


 
Very nice and true words Zeatadu


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## zeatadu

moura said:


> Very nice and true words Zeatadu


Thanks Moura,I'd like to show my feelings with color,young age and old age.What is your color?


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## vachecow

Joca said:


> Do the young people have ears for us? ng of frustration.




Joca,
Don't worry about that.  The young people who don't want to listen to their elders will regret it.  History tends to repeat itself, and the only way to avoid repeating the bad times is to talk to people who have seen it all.



ps
I like to think that I'm green
Don't know what that means.....


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## moura

quote: "young age and old age.What is your colour?" 

Ah, Zeatadu, at this moment my colours would be: blue for young and white or silver for old, ages. But tomorrow, those colours might be changed


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## Etcetera

Let me add something - as a young person. 
I enjoy talking to mu older relatives. I've never asked them for any advice, nor have they ever tried to teach me (in our family, it's the prerogative of the parents), but they sometimes tell me stories about what they've seen in their lives. 
My Mum's uncle has survived the Siege of Leningrad, and my Mum's grandmother (she died several years ago) lived in Leningrad Region during the war. Her daughter sometimes tells me something about what she heard from her mother about these times. My Mum's uncle sometimes recalls his experiences, too. Not so often; and of course, we never ask them about that. But it's always fascinating to listen to them. 
Well, what was my point... Old people have seen much more than we youngsters did. And they can tell us about what they've seen. And it would be far more interesting and truly than all the stories you can read in a history book.


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## xrayspex

_In nature, most animals don't live much longer beyond their reproductive years. We do, and it seems that year after year we are stretching our longevity._ 

This has been studied by anthropologists and evolutionary psychologists for a long time.  In nature there is almost always a reason for everything (and ultimately that reason boils down to survival of the species.) 

From what I've read, I believe that humans are unique among animals because grandparents are necessary for successfully raising children.  Of course, a relatively few centuries ago, being a parent meant you were in your teens or twenties, and being a grandparent meant you had survived into your 30's, or 40's at most.


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## ayaram7700

Hi, Joca and everybody,

I turned 60 last December and what can I say? I am not *that *wise, and I am still working, because my "retirement plan" amounts to almost nothing. My best friends are in their thirties and they keep inviting me everywhere, actually, I had never frequented bars, but now at this age, they want to take me there often and as I don't drink much, I just go along and enjoy the talk. I love this age, better than any other and if I could go back in time, I would LOVE to be 40 again. I feel sure of almost everything I do, independent, strong, less vulnerable, and fo course, if my health keeps being as good as now, I would like to live until I am 80 or over. And read so many books that I am missing. I do not have too many plans to accomplish and I live one day at a time. Believe me, being old is not so bad. Then again, ask me in 20 years...

Saludos,

Ayaram7700


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## Poetic Device

Joca said:


> In nature, most animals don't live much longer beyond their reproductive years. We do, and it seems that year after year we are stretching our longevity. Since there seems to be no biological value in being old, humans may stick to the notion that old age is the domain of wisdom in order to find a reason for their long lives. However, honestly, who wants to learn from our wisdom (I am counting myself an old man, too, though I am still slightly young  )? Do the young people have ears for us? Or do they find us to be old-fashioned? How can we find a genuine reason for justifying old age in humans?
> 
> It is not my intention to irritate you with these questions. I just want to know how some of you approach old age without a feeling of frustration.


 
I love listening to stories of times gone by.  They are so rich and interesting!  When I was younger, I would love it when my grandfather played his Edison Tubes and told me of people like Ishkabibble and Mae West.  I adoed listening to his naval stories and how he lived through the depression.  I learned so much and it gave me such a thirst and appreciation for history.


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## Ana Raquel

There was a documentary on TV, recently, about US companies that hire old people, they were interwieved, some were 80+ others 90+, some had their children retired and they were still working  . It was enlightening.
Here in Spain a 101 old woman is working as volontary in a residence for old `people. 
In short, what is being old? Sometimes ther is no difference with young people.


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## Poetic Device

You are right.  That is why I always defined old as your abilities.  I know some twenty year olds that are older than some 75 year olds...


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## Veggy

Ana Raquel said:


> There was a documentary on TV, recently, about US companies that hire old people, they were interwieved, some were 80+ others 90+, some had their children retired and they were still working  . It was enlightening.
> Here in Spain a 101 old woman is working as volontary in a residence for old `people.
> In short, what is being old? Sometimes ther is no difference with young people.


 
Old age? Nice subject Joca, thanks. 
There is the age of the registry office and there is the age of the mind/soul, and that of the body. I think giving advise is not something that belongs only to older people, anyone with any experience can "be wise". To tell others about your experiences can be useful, it is a good thing to tell but one should not expect younger people to follow it since I beleive each one learns from his own experience not from words with due exception for life threatening events.

"_Ah, si les jeunes savaient, si les vieux pouvaient_!"


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## Joca

My impression is that as individuals, we cherish the old, but as (modern) societies, we tend to favour the young.


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## Etcetera

Joca said:


> My impression is that as individuals, we cherish the old, but as (modern) societies, we tend to favour the young.


It's a good point, Joca. 
Indeed, even for a middle-aged person it's pretty hard to find job here in Russia, and for an elderly person it's almost impossible.


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## mirx

Etcetera said:


> It's a good point, Joca.
> Indeed, even for a middle-aged person it's pretty hard to find job here in Russia, and for an elderly person it's almost impossible.


 
Well, in México there's a well known shopping center chain, that hires old people for the bagging and wrapping. And wal-mart Mexico, also has a policy to hire preberably middle-aged people to young people.

Going back to the main point. Personally, I love elderly people, they are the best entertainers, most of them tell lies and invent anecdotes, and it is only ther elderly counterparts who can unmasked them. This happens all the time with grandpa and grandma.

Would I take an advice from them, it depend a lot on what the advice is for. My grandpa and I are as different as I am from a grandpa in China. His experience has nothing to do with the experiences I am going through, What would you say if a person from the 14th century came back to life and told you how to live your life?


And even if my "abuelo" had the same or similar experiences to my own, I still wouldn't listen, we have a saying in spanish that goes "Nadie aprende en cabeza ajena", Unfortunately I am one of those.
And as for wisdom, I do appreciate it and think of him as a very wise man.


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## liulia

Thank you for starting this thread! 
I have been thinking a lot about what it means to "grow" old - and not to stop growing! 
Many people who are in their 50s and 60s are starting a new chapter in their lives, trying to decide what they really want to do with the years ahead. For some, this is the first opportunity they have ever had to think about this! 

My children have grown up and have found partners of their own and careers they enjoy. I enjoy their company and they are loving and wonderful to me, but I feel that I must let go of them, in the sense that I need to find new ways of relating with them; it has to be something life-giving, not a source of depression and sadness as I often see in people around me. I don't want to be a burden to them, nor to intrude in their lives. As i am single, this can be complicated: they feel "responsible" for me, even though i am still strong, healthy and self-supporting!

The process of *letting go*, lovingly and constructively, probably never ends - it is an ongoing process, one that started years and years ago, but is still difficult for me...  I know it is necessary, if I am to be truly free to grow and  to explore, but I find it very challenging!


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## palomnik

I'm coming up on 60 years old in a couple of years. I think that while there are the gleaming exceptions, for many old people old age is a time of depression. 

I believe that in bygone eras people did look to the elderly as a source of wisdom. In general, this is no longer true, and one major reason is that life changes much more quickly now, and what the elderly experienced tends to seem less and less relevant with each passing generation. Older people are aware of this, and they find it depressing.  

I am amazed at how complicated life is for people 30 years younger than I am, and I wouldn't want to trade places with them.

As for me, I believe old age is a time to start something new. I plan to retire soon, move overseas, and hopefully do a lot of translating, which I love, but I never have the time to do.


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## liulia

For some people the first reaction when they realize that they are truly getting older and that no one needs them in the way they used to, can be one of depression, hopelessness and regret. But in my experience this does not have to last forever! It can be simply a brief time of grieving for things that have been good but are no longer appropriate or available.

 I have discovered that, at least for myself, beyond the initial reaction of anger and rebellion ("I don't wanna get old!" to which my mother responded with a wry smile, "Think of the alternative..."!), there is something new and exciting happening: a sense of huge possibility and a new kind of freedom.

I still need to earn my living, so I'm only relatively free in some ways. But in other ways... well, I am, for example, no longer "on call"! Now I want to find new ways to be useful to people, but I don't want to do it simply out of my own need to be needed, so I'm taking my time, gradually trying to figure out how not to lead a selfish and self-centered life!!!


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## Poetic Device

I know that I have no right talking about my age, but I felt old for the first time this weekend because I realised that I could remember twenty years ago.  I remember that when I was really little I would think "I'll be dead before I remember that long ago."  Well, I'm still breathing.  

I also notice that as we get older the age for an "old person" gets highter.  Is it because we are in denial?  Do children have their right idea within their untainted minds?


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## french4beth

The new catchphrase these days seems to be "*60* is the new *40*". Even in my own lifetime, the average life expectancy has increased substantially. Most of my friends at work are in their late 50's - mid 60's. They are all pretty young at heart, though. I've met people in their 20's & 30's that are virtually brain-dead, yet there are some 60 year olds that I would be hard-pressed to keep up with. I just spoke with a lady here at work; she's turning 84 this month, but she's finally going to retire in June - I hope that I'm still going strong at that age!! I've met many people in their 40's & 50's in the past couple of years who used to have prestigious, high-paying corporate jobs; they realized that deep down, they were not happy, so now they're working at non-profits, teaching, or even driving school buses, and they've never been happier!


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## liulia

french4beth said:


> The new catchphrase these days seems to be "40 is the new 60".



I hope you don't mean that! 

The way I've heard it - and the way I am experiencing it! -- is- "60 is the new 40" ! Which implies that nowadays when you're 60 you feel like you're 40. Or like your parents did when they were 40!  We can live our 60s as if we were in our 40s.


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## maxiogee

Actually — 40 is the new waistline!


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## french4beth

Yikes - I'm not that old, and my brain is already shot!?! 

Back in the day, once you were over 60, I think that you were expected to sit in a rocking chair and listen to the radio all day. That is definitely not the case these days!  My mom is busier nowadays than she was before she retired... Some people even take on a new career these days - older workers are in great demand as they usually have a strong work ethic and don't call in sick all the time! And they've got lots of 'life' experience, too.


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## liulia

I have a friend who is 95 and still enjoys life passionately. He attributes this in part to years of yoga - even now he does a few minutes every morning. His only physical complaint is an old saber wound he got in a battle in the Sahara when he was very young which bothers him when the weather changes. 
Aside from that, he has few complaints. He says that's because he has few expectations! 
He says, however, that there is a particular king of loneliness about being the only one left of his generation. His memory for recent events is not too good  any more; but he has a fantastic memory for things that happened so long ago that no one else remembers them! So he feels lonely... even though he is a wonderful story-teller who can keep younger people mesmerized for hours!


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## Poetic Device

Does he often have visitors?  I really hope that people appriciate him.  A lot of times the elderly are more of a treasure than the youth.


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## liulia

Poetic Device said:


> Does he often have visitors?  I really hope that people appriciate him.  A lot of times the elderly are more of a treasure than the youth.



Yes, he does! People are constantly coming and going, even from far away places. And he is always happy to talk about his rich and eventful life. Truly a treasure!


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## mirx

liulia said:


> I have a friend who is 95 and still enjoys life passionately. He attributes this in part to years of yoga - even now he does a few minutes every morning. His only physical complaint is an old saber wound he got in a battle in the Sahara when he was very young which bothers him when the weather changes.
> Aside from that, he has few complaints. He says that's because he has few expectations!
> He says, however, that there is a particular king of loneliness about being the only one left of his generation. His memory for recent events is not too good any more; but he has a fantastic memory for things that happened so long ago that no one else remembers them! So he feels lonely... even though he is a wonderful story-teller who can keep younger people mesmerized for hours!


 

Sounds like my grandpa who is 94, and the same happens, you can't ask him what day it was yestarday, but if you ask him what it was like the 7th of November 1945, he will explain with all full details. but then my grandma who´s still alive is 87 year old, so they have someone to talk to.


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## Kajjo

Joca said:


> In nature, most animals don't live much longer beyond their reproductive years. [...] Since there seems to be no biological value in being old, humans may stick to the notion that old age is the domain of wisdom in order to find a reason for their long lives.


Let me reply to the biological points you raised. Most animals live indeed not much longer than their productive years, because the species have no advantages from old animals. Humans do live longer and I see two important aspects:

First, in early history older humans actually could contribute valuable assets to a group, e.g. caring for children and teaching and preserving knowledge and traditions. These cultural aspects are what distinguishes the human species from animals. Experience, wisdom, insight are factors that are rare in youngsters and frequent in mature people and those factors actually can be an significant advantage for a group.

Secondly, to be straightforward, the life expectancy of humans used not to exceed significantly that of fertility. Average life expectancy of ancient people was 30-50 years and that conincides with the age of menopause. Very many people died of child-birth and of untreatable infectious diseases in young years, still a lot died by nowadays easily treatable injuries and wound, e.g. acquired during hunting and field work. Thus, the number of old people was relatively small (which is an important factor!) and the few could contribute valuable assets (see above) without being too much of a burden to the whole group. 

The contemporary situation of longevity is just a product of our civilisation and its technical and medical advancement. It is not a biological feature and thus cannot be justified by biological reasoning.

Let us be happy that we successfully extended our lifes!

Kajjo


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## Lugubert

I'm, at 63, as busy as ever in my profession. In my spare time, I start learning a new language every few years. But, now, for the first time, I make an effort to concentrate on one only.

For other aspects on life, I just bought a bicycle. Haven't used them for more than 30 years, but it's again great fun. And, time permitting, I'm planning to learn how to play the beautiful bassoon that I acquired almost 40 years ago but never had the financial possibility to have restored.

I can't complain too much. Editing my keyboarding can be a pain, because the condition that rendered me a disability pension six years ago, but on the other hand, I am not tied to work shedules. And Im not overly worried about the near future (except for the effects of global warming). Mother (90) could challenge any person at solving crossword puzzles. She even keeps up to date with youth culture because of her constant TV watching and the constant stream of visiting grandchildren, with or without their parents or children of their own.

Us children try to make her interested in the Internet, but so far, she's content with learning how to type in Word, because she is not content with her handwriting.


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