# pronunciation: s + y [this year]



## diminished7th

Am I right that when s precedes y like in "this year" you tend to pronounce it as sh instead of s (like thish year)?


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## e2efour

I think you're right, although we don't used sh here if we're being careful!


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## ><FISH'>

I don't think I've ever heard that before.


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## envie de voyager

><FISH'> said:


> I don't think I've ever heard that before.


 
Agreed.  I've never heard that before.


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## Forero

Within a word (e.g. _issue_), most US English speakers pronounce a theoretical _s_+_y_ as _sh_.

Between words, we have a tendency to run the words together to the same effect, but we avoid doing it in careful speech.

_s_+_y_ pronounced as _sh_+_y_ is an intermediate version that happens when we speak either very quickly or a little bit carelessly.


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## natkretep

This phenomenon varies according to accent. The 'y' sound affects the consonant previous to it in various was. Palatalisation is name that is used for:

t+y --> ch (as in _tune_, pronounced _tyoon _ /tju:n/ coming out as _choon_ /ʧu:n/) see also this thread

s+y --> sh (as in _tissue_, pronounced TIS-syoo /ˈtɪsju:/ coming out as TISH-oo /ˈtɪʃu:/)

It can occur across word boundaries for some accents, therefore: _this year_ coming out as _thih shear_, _not yet_ coming out as _nochett_


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## envie de voyager

I live in an area where there are people from all over the world (south central Canada), many of them only learning to speak English once they are here. So, on a regular basis, I interact with people having many different accents. But I can't recall ever having heard someone say "thih shear". I'm sure if I did, I wouldn't wonder about their accent, I would silently believe I had just met someone with a speech impediment.


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## natkretep

envie de voyager said:


> I live in an area where there are people from all over the world (south central Canada), many of them only learning to speak English once they are here. So, on a regular basis, I interact with people having many different accents. But I can't recall ever having heard someone say "thih shear". I'm sure if I did, I wouldn't wonder about their accent, I would silently believe I had just met someone with a speech impediment.



Oh, but you wouldn't really hear this from learners of English as a foreign language. This is something you hear from 'native speakers'. I wouldn't think it remarkable if I hear 'this year' with a 'sh' sound or 'last year' with a 'ch' sound.


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## envie de voyager

natkretep said:


> Oh, but you wouldn't really hear this from learners of English as a foreign language. This is something you hear from 'native speakers'. I wouldn't think it remarkable if I hear 'this year' with a 'sh' sound or 'last year' with a 'ch' sound.


 
I am also surrounded by the people I grew up with, and none of us slur an "sh" sound into "this year, or a "ch" into "not yet".  It must be a British thing.  ( Oh, and "lass cheer" is something young Scottish girls do at a football game.)


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## ><FISH'>

envie de voyager said:


> I am also surrounded by the people I grew up with, and none of us slur an "sh" sound into "this year, or a "ch" into "not yet".  It must be a British thing.


The only British person who does that is Sean Connery. I'm pretty sure there's no dialect of English in the world where an "s" transforms into a "sh" preceeding "y". Dialect rules are usually not that specific, and English accents mostly vary on vowel sounds rather than consonants.

Maybe the OP is confused because of the slight whistle sound that emerges when saying "This year".


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## natkretep

envie de voyager said:


> It must be a British thing.



Possibly, but Forero (#5) also talks of it in the American context too. I cannot say for certain about what happens in AmE, but I'm pretty sure that 'would you' has a 'j' sound in informal, relaxed settings when spoken by a significant subset of the American population (because I've noticed this before) - and this is a similar phenomenon.


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## Loob

I agree with natkretep: this is a common phenomenon in a number of varieties of English.


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## e2efour

><FISH'> said:


> I'm pretty sure there's no dialect of English in the world where an "s" transforms into a "sh" preceeding "y". Dialect rules are usually not that specific, and English accents mostly vary on vowel sounds rather than consonants.



So you've never heard the pronunciation of assure with an sh sound (not exactly sh but a palatalised s)? The difficult task would be to find people who don't do it.


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## ewie

Loob said:


> I agree with natkretep: this is a common phenomenon in a number of varieties of English.


So do I.  I do it all the time


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## nzfauna

Funnily, my first thought was "no, of course we don't do that", however, I practiced and found that I do say that when speaking lazily or informally.

If I were speaking properly I would not the the sh thing.


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## Arrius

_issue, tissue_, and _assure_ pronounced without without a _sh_ sound are so rare now as to sound pedantic. _This year_ slightly less so.


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## envie de voyager

e2efour said:


> So you've never heard the pronunciation of assure with an sh sound (not exactly sh but a palatalised s)? The difficult task would be to find people who don't do it.


 


			
				Arrius said:
			
		

> _issue, tissue_, and _assure_ pronounced without without a _sh_ sound are so rare now as to sound pedantic. _This year_ slightly less so.


 

I don't understand how the pronunciation of assure, tissue or issue is linked to the possibility of putting an "sh" sound in between the two words "this" and "year". I grew up saying "ashur, ishoo and tishoo", but for the life of me, I cannot imagine the sound "thisheer" being understood as the words "this year". I must be missing something here.


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## Packard

I never realized it until just now but I also say "thishear".  But the rule does not hold for other situations.

*Is this your yam?  No, it is his yam.*

I this case I would pronounce "his yam" correctly.


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## sound shift

Packard said:


> I never realized it until just now but I also say "thishear".  But the rule does not hold for other situations.
> 
> *Is this your yam?  No, it is his yam.*
> 
> I this case I would pronounce "his yam" correctly.


I suspect this is because the "s" of "his" is voiced, whereas the "s" of "this" is unvoiced.


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## Packard

sound shift said:


> I suspect this is because the "s" of "his" is voiced, whereas the "s" of "this" is unvoiced.


 
Well, something is going on, but I don't think that is it.

I would pronounce "this your" correctly too.

*Is this your yam? No, it is his yam.*


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## e2efour

envie de voyager said:


> I don't understand how the pronunciation of assure, tissue or issue is linked to the possibility of putting an "sh" sound in between the two words "this" and "year". I grew up saying "ashur, ishoo and tishoo", but for the life of me, I cannot imagine the sound "thisheer" being understood as the words "this year". I must be missing something here.


_Assure _is not a good example, but issue and tissue are pronounced either with sh or as in "miss you".

Another example is "in case you" which is often pronounced as in "kay shoe". This is an example of assimilation and is a widespread phenomenon, especially when speaking quickly.


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## Pedro y La Torre

I find that I do this myself if I'm not paying attention. I presume it's "lazy" speech.


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## natkretep

Packard said:


> Well, something is going on, but I don't think that is it.
> 
> I would pronounce "this your" correctly too.
> 
> *Is this your yam? No, it is his yam.*



I suspect it's something to do with two things:
1. stress. The palatalisation must come at the end of a stressed syllable, and the following syllable with very little stress.
2. height of tongue. The subsequent vowel has to be a close or semi-close one (to ensure that the tongue is higher): therefore more likely if the following vowel is ee /i:/ or oo /u:/. 

No palatalisation for _this yam_ because (1) _yam _is a sufficiently unusual word so will not lose its stress, (2) _yam _has an open vowel.


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## diminished7th

Thanks all...I guess I got it...In this particular example it has to be a non-native sound confusion  (at least in most of the occasions)

PS. In the last few days I ran into some other examples as well like "guess you", "makes you" and "Bless you"....


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## J Schmidt

Where in the US, this “In case you”, that turns into “In ca/ʒ/ you”, can be found?

This “/ʒ/” is the same as in “Beige”


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## Forero

J Schmidt said:


> Where in the US, this “In case you”, that turns into “In ca/ʒ/ you”, can be found?
> 
> This “/ʒ/” is the same as in “Beige”


Not in Arkansas or Texas, except as a mistake, because the word _case_ is has an unvoiced _s_ sound, not a _z_ sound.


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## JustKate

I agree with Forero. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find that it's pronounced that way somewhere in the U.S. - there are a lot of different accents here - but I've never heard it.


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## J Schmidt

The case is that I’ve heard it from Americans when singing, like Timbaland and Keri Hilson in the song “The Way I Are”. I mean, not the “in case you”, but in verses like “We can work without the perks just you and me” and “It don't matter 'cause I'm the one that loves you best”.
In Keri’s song “Knock You Down”. Verse- “And it knocks you down, Just get back up, When it knocks you down”

Maybe this sound is not this /ʒ/ as in Beige, but is not exactly a ‘sh’. It’s like SH +Z. To my ears, it's like the /ʒ/ as in Beige. 

I've also heard it when some people are speaking. "Because you are..." The same happens here.


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## natkretep

In the case of _loves you_ and _because you_, I would not be surprised at the pronunciations with /ʒ/ as in _leisure/pleasure _because _loves _and _because_ end with /z/ rather than /s/, and /zj/ is regularly assimilated to /ʒ/.

The spellings should also indicate that _leisure_ and _pleasure_ were originally pronounced /zj/ and this might be the kind of pronunciation you heard at the time of Shakespeare.


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## J Schmidt

Thank you for the answers


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## Nino83

Now I'm watching the US Open semifinal between Serena Williams and Roberta Vinci on ESPN and the female commentator said that "thi*sh* year" spectators in New York were supporting Serena more strongly than in the last years.
It was said on the 2-2 of the first set.
On the 0-0 of the third set the man said "this year" and the woman said "thi*sh* year" again.
So, it probably changes from person to person.


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## Delvo

I never do this and never hear anyone around me do it. If I ever were to hear it in real life, it would sort of jump out and scream at me that this must be a foreigner, to be talking so oddly.


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## Packard

Nino83 said:


> Now I'm watching the US Open semifinal between Serena Williams and Roberta Vinci on ESPN and the female commentator said that "thi*sh* year" spectators in New York were supporting Serena more strongly than in the last years.
> It was said on the 2-2 of the first set.
> On the 0-0 of the third set the man said "this year" and the woman said "thi*sh* year" again.
> So, it probably changes from person to person.



It is probably pronounced more like "thishyear" (as though it were one word).

_<< Irrelevant. >>_


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## Nino83

The female commentator said it another couple of times while the man didn't. 
The woman (American, I guess from the Atlantic or Midwest part of the US, rhotic accent) has also the yod-coalescence in stressed syllables.


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## natkretep

I wouldn't be surprised to hear this. Some speakers say this, some don't. This applies to AmE and BrE.


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## Pedro y La Torre

natkretep said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to hear this. Some speakers say this, some don't. This applies to AmE and BrE.



Quite. I often say it, and I'm certainly not an AE speaker.


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## london calling

natkretep said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to hear this. Some speakers say this, some don't. This applies to AmE and BrE.


Neither would I. That said, I don't think I personally say 'thishyear' unless I'm being particularly lazy, but it wouldn't shock or surprise me to hear it .


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## Forero

london calling said:


> Neither would I. That said, I don't think I personally say 'thishyear' unless I'm being particularly lazy, but it wouldn't shock or surprise me to hear it .


This sort of thing annoys me every time I hear it. For me it is important that "this" and "year" be identifiable as words. In particular, "the shear" and "this year" should always be distinguishable by sound (like "the sky" and "this guy" ).

But I might, in a hurry, pronounce "in case you ..." with a "sh" sound (though it still would not quite sound the same as "in K shoe").


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## Nino83

I don't understand why many English speakers in this thread tried to convince (themself?) us that this never happens. 
If it can be heard on tv, it means that it is quite widespread.


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## Packard

I think it is partly environmental; if your parent or parents pronounce it by slurring together both words, you are likely to do so also.  I don't think it has anything to do with being lazy.


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## Forero

Packard said:


> I think it is partly environmental; if your parent or parents pronounce it by slurring together both words, you are likely to do so also.  I don't think it has anything to do with being lazy.


My parents didn't, but my brother did. He of course had his own friends, and he seemed to enjoy tormenting me. 

So I would say it is a combination of environment and personal taste/sensitivities.


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## london calling

Forero said:


> My parents didn't, but my brother did. He of course had his own friends, and he seemed to enjoy tormenting me.
> 
> So I would say it is a combination of environment and personal taste/sensitivities.


Oddly enough, my brother often does too. Not that he does it to torment me: he works in the world of showbiz and tends to adapt his mode of speech as needs, which means that at times his speech is deliberately lazy (or not, as the case may be).


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## Delvo

natkretep said:


> The 'y' sound affects the consonant previous to it in various was. Palatalisation is name that is used for:
> 
> t+y --> ch (as in _tune_, pronounced _tyoon _ /tju:n/ coming out as _choon_ /ʧu:n/) see also this thread
> 
> s+y --> sh (as in _tissue_, pronounced TIS-syoo /ˈtɪsju:/ coming out as TISH-oo /ˈtɪʃu:/)


But the palatalized {tʲ} and {sʲ} are not the same sounds as {ʧ} and {ʃ}. If they were, then the IPA would never have needed the symbol {ʲ} to represent the phenomenon because symbols like {ʧ} and {ʃ} would cover it. At most, they're close enough to be equated with them (or with their unpalatalized counterparts {t} and {s}) by a listener whose language does not distinguish palatalized consonants as separate phonemes. (We all tend to "round off" sounds we don't have a concept for to nearby sounds that we do have a concept for.)

unpalatalized {s} (alveolar fricative): Wikipedia sound sample
palatalized {sʲ} (still alveolar) in the Russian word "несёт" (IPA nʲɪsʲɵt): Wikipedia sound sample
the sound spelled "sh" in English (post-alveolar/palato-alveolar fricative): Wikipedia sound sample


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## Nino83

If I had to write her pronunciaton it would be [ˈðɪʃɪɹ̩], it was equal to the Italian/English [ʃ]


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## london calling

Nino83 said:


> If I had to write her pronunciaton it would be [ˈðɪʃɪɹ̩], it was equal to the Italian/English [ʃ]


Whose pronunciation, Nino? Who is 'she'?


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## Nino83

The American female commentator of the US Open semifinal I was speaking about in #31 and #34?

Anyway, all phoneticians use the IPA symbol [ʃ] for the English yod-coalescence, because it is this the sound.


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## london calling

Ok thanks, that wasn't at all clear. You should have quoted your posts. As I mentioned above, the commentator's pronunciation ( the [ʃ] sound) doesn't surprise me at all.



london calling said:


> Neither would I. That said, I don't think I personally say 'thishyear' unless I'm being particularly lazy, but it wouldn't shock or surprise me to hear it .


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## Nino83

You're right, london calling, I was replying to Delvo (I should have quoted his comment) .


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