# Voice and vote



## ThomasK

Do you use voice or vote in these connections? 

These are quite some different words in Dutch containing with* stem/ *_*voice* (which can also be *vote,* I believe, in English). _ 

Politics
_a. Ik stem  voor_ / I vote for that poltician. 
_b. Ik heb geen stem in het kapittel._ / I have no say in that group, regarding the decision (refers to the monks' chapter)
c. stemming/ vote (sometimes 'elections' maybe)
_d. Eenstemmigheid_/ consensus 

More general
_e. Toestemming/_ permission granted by a person 
_d. Instemmen met_ /agree with (in-voice with)
f. _(zich) afstemmen op/_ to tune in, syntonize 
f'. _afstemmen_/ vote down


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## Tjahzi

Well, the simple answer to your question would be that *Swedish *uses the same word for voice _röst_ for _vote_ as well. However, I'll fill in the formula using the most natural answer that I can think of.

1.a _Jag röstar för/på. _(One votes _for_ (or against) a proposal, but _on_ a candidate/party.)
b.  _Jag har ingen talan_. (The noun _talan _obviously being derived from the verb _tala_ roughly translated to _say_ (noun).) 
c. _Röst_ (The same as the word for _voice_.)
d. _Enhällighet_ or _samstämmighet_. (The latter obviously containing the verb/noun _stämma_ whose noun is an older word for _röst_, nowadays mostly used about a singing voice. The verb has come to mean _be correct _or_ agree._)

2.a I fail to find an equivalent.
b. _Instämma _(Agree with. Apparently more or less identical to Dutch.) 
c+d. _Avstämma_, or more commonly _stämma av_ (Check, tune in, confirm, make sure, agree upon.)


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## Orlin

In (some) Slavic languages the word for "voice" (BG глас, RUS голос, BCS glas) means "a vote" too; "to vote" is related with it (BG гласувам, RUS голосовать, BCS glasati/glasovati).


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## ThomasK

Thanks a lot, Mr T from S, but now :
- what does _röst_ refer to originally? I can't see a word like that in Dutch
- would you have an idea why d does not get a _röst_ variant ? (I also wondered whether it had to do with voting (one vote), or with the simple unisono effect, one-voice effect,and thought we'd use it in political contexts...)

I tried to find the meaning of röst and ended up with/at Wiktionary: 


> From Middle English _vois_, from Anglo-Norman _voiz_, _voys_, _voice_, Old French _vois_, _voiz_ (_Modern French voix_), from Latin _vōcem_, accusative form of Latin _vōx_ (“voice”), from Proto-Indo-European _*wek-_, _*wekʷ-_, _*wokʷ-_ (“to utter, speak”).
> Cognate with Sanskrit वच् (“to say, speak”),
> German _erwähnen_ (“to mention”).
> Displaced native Middle English _steven_ (“voice”), from Old English _stefn_ (see steven),
> Middle English _rouste_ "voice" from Old Norse _raust_, and
> Middle English _rearde_ "voice" from Old English _reord_.


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## Tjahzi

Did you get this far? Interestingly enough, both Danish and Norwegian have _stemme _for _voice, _while Icelandic has _rödd_. As such, I'm tempted to believe that the two roots coexisted in Old Norse and that the various dialects that later evolved into languages simply came to prefer different words (in different context). Since the concept of "voting" is a fairly recently introduced one, I think it's fair to assume that it became common practice to just use the word for "voice" to mean "vote" as well.

Regarding "c+d", I feel the need to clarify. The verb _avstämma_ does indeed exist, although in its very unspecified form, and it fits in well with the meaning of c. (although without being reflexive nor demanding any preposition). However, I failed to find an independent expression for d. rather than _rösta ner_, which obviously equals _vote down_ (and as such is not "independent"). As such, _avstämma_ can not be used in the sense of d, unlike its identically functioning Dutch cognate.


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## apmoy70

In Greek:
*Voice:* «Φωνή» (fo'ni _f._); from the Classical «φωνὴ» (pʰō'nē _f._), PIE base *bhā-, _to speak_.
*Vote:* «Ψήφος» ('psifos _f._); from the Classical «ψῆφος/ψᾶφος» ('psēpʰŏs or 'psāpʰŏs, both are common; _f._), PIE base *bhes-, _to chew, rub_. «Ψῆφος» was the pebble used for reckoning, counter, the result of rubbing down, wearing away (verb «ψήχω», 'psēxō) larger stones. 
I can't see any connection.


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## ThomasK

Thanks, Mr T, I had not got that far. I suppose we still have a remainder in razen, be furious (which may imply shouting and yelling). And thanks for the other information. 

Thanks, Apmoy, just one more question: how many of the verbs can you derive using either of them ? Thanks!


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## apmoy70

ThomasK said:


> Thanks, Apmoy, just one more questions: how many of the verbs can you derive using either of them ? Thanks!


From «φωνή» (voice)
«Φωνάζω» (fo'nazo)-->_to speak loud, address with a loud voice_
«Φωνασκώ» (fona'sko)-->_to speak/shout with a disturbing voice_
«Ξεφωνίζω» (ksefo'nizo)-->_to scream_
«Ξεφωνώ» (ksefo'no)-->_to expose (in the negative way)_ 
From «ψήφος» (vote)
«Ψηφίζω» (psi'fizo)-->_to vote_
«Υπερψηφίζω» (iperpsi'fizo)-->_to vote for, vote in the affirmative_
«Καταψηφίζω» (katapsi'fizo)-->_to vote against, vote in the negative_


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## Havfruen

As already mentioned, *Danish* has *"stemme"* as the normal word for _voice_ and _to vote_. However røst also exists, meaning _voice_.

It's fun to find all the cognates among Germanic languages.

a. Jeg stemmer for ham/hun. _I vote for him/her._
b. Jeg har ingen stemme/indflydelse i denne sag. _I have no voice/say/influence in that affair/situation_
c. valg _election/vote_
d. enighed/konsensus _consensus_

e. tilladelse _permission_
f. Jeg er enig om _I agree about;_Jeg istemmer med / stemme i med _I agree with, am in one voice with, sing together with_
g. enstemmig (adj)  _unanimous, (sung) in unison_
h. nedstemme / stemme ned _vote down_

stemning = _mood, sentiment, atmosphere, tuning (music)

I am not a native speaker; amendments welcome form those who are 
_


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## ThomasK

Very good addition: we also have _stemming_, atmosphere !

No voting with voices then...


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## Havfruen

ThomasK said:


> No voting with voices then...


How do you mean?

a voice = en stemme, to vote = at stemme 
I'd call that voting with voices.


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## Tjahzi

Oh, I realize that I misinterpreted 1c (due to reading sloppily).

An election is called _ett val_ (literally, _a choice_). When referring to smaller cases of elections, the noun _omröstning_ is used. Literally translating to _about-vote-ing_. (The verb is still _rösta_ however, not _omrösta_.)

For the record, I could list quite a few derivations of _röst_ and _stämma_ that don't make the list, but that would be a deviation from your template. Just let me know if you want the list.


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## ThomasK

Great, thanks. You can send me the other derivations as well. There might be some that are quite interesting, like stemming (atmosphere), which is a homonym of 'election'.


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## jazyk

Different words in Portuguese: voice (voz, f.), to voice (exprimir, expressar, declarar, etc.), vote (voto, m.), to vote (votar).


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## origumi

Hebrew: _kol_ קול = voice means also vote. The meaning is narrower than in English: it's a noun only, and refers to the vote of a specific voter.

For example:
In the last elections the Labor received million _kolot_ (the plural of _kol_) 
This year's _kol_ is important


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## ThomasK

So you don't have a verb based on it either? (Thanks !)


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## origumi

ThomasK said:


> So you don't have a verb based on it either? (Thanks !)


The main word in Hebrew for vote and voting (noun, verb) is based on the secondary(?) root צבע derived from noun אצבע = finger. And indeed _to vote_ and _to raise the finger_ are the same word.


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## ThomasK

I thought there was a link with voice. Is there an etymological link between the Hebrew words for 'voice' and 'finger'?


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## sakvaka

*Finnish*.

_ääni_ (_äänen, ääntä_) = voice; sound; (sometimes) tone; (a single) vote

_äänioikeus_ = right to vote
_ääntää_ = pronounce
etc.

a. _Äänestän tuota poliitikkoa._ (_ääne-stä-ä_ < _ääni_)
b. (I think) _Minulla ei ole sananvaltaa tuossa asiassa._ I have no word power in that matter.
c. _vaalit _(sv. 'val', nl. 'verkiezing?')_; äänestys_ (sv. 'omröstning', nl. 'stemming')
d. _yksimielisyys _(one-mindedness*), why not _yksiäänisyys _(one-voiceness)

* Remember that _mieli_ 'mind' has a wide scale of uses, from the pure psychological aspect of a person to their moods, opinions and preferences.

e. nope 
d. nope
f. nope
f'. _äänestää kumoon/nurin_

The latter part is a descriptive adverb. If you stumble and fall down, you _kaadut kumoon_. A piece of clothing can be _nurin päin_, inside out, a book can be _nurin päin_ on the shelf (upside down), but you can also stumble and fall over (_lentää nurin_). It's a bit difficult to translate them to English. I think the intended meaning is the condition after stumbling.


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## DearPrudence

In French, like in Portuguese
*a voice = une voix (nf)
to voice = exprimer
**a vote = un vote (nm) or une voix (nf)**
to vote = voter *

_a. Ik stem  voor_ / I vote for that poltician. - *Je vote pour cet homme politique*
_b. Ik heb geen stem in het kapittel._ / I have no say in that group, regarding the decision (refers to the monks' chapter) -* ne pas avoir voix au chapitre* (same image as in Dutch)
c. stemming/ vote (sometimes 'elections' maybe) - *un vote, but also une voix* (_ex : il a récolté 40% des voix aux dernières élections_)


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## ThomasK

Thanks, F and SF ! 'To voice' is an interesting addition  (and of course in Romanic languages there is also 'vocation', 'évoquer', etc., n'est-ce pas ?).


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## DearPrudence

ThomasK said:


> (and of course in Romanic languages there is also 'vocation', 'évoquer', etc., n'est-ce pas ?).


Yes, you're right, I hadn't thought "vocation" came from "voix", rather from "voie" (as we say: "*trouver sa voie*" (find your way but also finally find find what you want to do with your life/professionally))


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## ThomasK

The only thing is that we have an entirely word for calling: 'roepen'. Therefore I had not thought of 'vocare'...


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## Rallino

*In Turkish:*

a voice = *ses*
a vote =_ *oy*(*)_ or _*rey*(**)

_(*) oy is old Turkic word meaning "voice/calling". It is not in use in modern Turkish.
(**) rey is Arabic word meaning "view/idea". In Turkish, it is not in use in this sense. Actually, I've never even heard it being used at all. I only know it thanks to the crosswords...

to vote = *oy vermek* (lit. to give voice. But as "oy" isn't in modern use, so few people know the real meaning behind this expression that they use just for "voting".)


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## ThomasK

So no resemblance, Rallino - or am I mistaken ? Or 'oy' is only a very old word. Can you use 'ses' or 'oy' in any derivations or compounds (see a-f') ? Thanks !


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> So no resemblance, Rallino - or am I mistaken ? Or 'oy' is only a very old word.



No resemblance. Oy is a dead word -- totally zombie. Only used in "voting" context.



> Can you use 'ses' or 'oy' in any derivations or compounds


_Ses_ and _oy _aren't interchangeable. Maybe they could be if "oy" were still in use, but in modern times this isn't the case. _Oy _exists only in these fixed expressions: _Oy vermek/kullanmak _(to vote), _oylamak_ (to participate in a voting sessin) and _oya sunmak_ (to start a voting session), that's it. For example the following phrases can only be said with "ses".

High Voice - Yüksek ses  (Yüksek oy )
Soprano voice - Soprano sesi  (Soprano oyu )
Voice of the nature -  Doğanın sesi  (Doğanın oyu )



> (see a-f') ? Thanks !


a-f? I don't follow


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## ThomasK

I see, Rallino. a-f' refer to my sentences at the beginning of the thread (#1).

But maybe you use one of those stems ('ses' ?) to make the verb 'call'...


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## Rallino

ThomasK said:


> I see, Rallino. a-f' refer to my sentences at the beginning of the thread (#1).
> 
> But maybe you use one of those stems ('ses' ?) to make the verb 'call'...



Indeed we do. 
Two examples with the stem "ses" would be:
Seslenmek = to call
Sessizlik = silence


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## ThomasK

Really? Silence would then be voicelessness, I guess. Does it ?


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## Rallino

Exactly so.


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## Tjahzi

Ok, here we go... 


 Derived from Proto-Germanic _razdō_:

1a. _Rösta _{verb}, - vote.
1b_. Röst  _{noun, c} - voice.
1c_. Röst  _{noun, c} - vote.
1d. _Omröstning _{noun, c} - voting, small election.
1e. _Röstning _{noun, c} - the act of voting.
1f. _Rösträtt _{noun, c} - suffrage.

Derived from Proto-Germanic _stemnō_:

2a. _Stämma _{verb} - be correct, add up.
2b. _Stämma ett instrument_ {verb} - tune.
2c. _Stämma _{verb} - sue (juridical).
2d. _Stämma träff/möte_ {verb} - arrange a meeting.
2e. _Instämma _{verb} - agree.
2f. _Stämma in_ {verb} - join in.
2g. _Avstämma/stämma _av {verb} - verify, ensure, control.
2h. _Överensstämma/stämma överens med_ {verb} - Coincide, agree.
2i. _Bestämma_ - decide and many more. (This is a verb of its own, rather than a phrasal verb, but its origins are obvious.)
2j. _Stämma_ {noun, c} - singing voice, voice (somewhat old fashioned).
2k. _Stämma_ {noun, c} - meeting or assembly (of eg. the board of a company or a political party).
2l. _Stämning _{noun, c} - lawsuit. (Derived from 2c.)
2m. _Stämning _{noun, c} - mood, atmosphere.
2n. _Bestämmelse _{noun, c} - regulation, provision. (Derived from 2i.)
2o. _Stämjärn _{noun, n} - chisel.
2p. _Stämband _{noun, n} - vocal cord.


Obviously, this list is not complete. However, one can obviously conclude that historically, _stämma_ seems to have been more prevalent, or at least more productive, when it comes to producing compound, despite the fact that _röst_ today dominates over _stämma_ when in isolation.


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## ThomasK

The resemblance is impressive ! We don"'t have 2a, 2c, 2d, 2g, 2i (more German), 2k (stemming is vote), 2l, 2n probably not, 2o. (Although, it was a little less than I thought)


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## Tjahzi

Hm, what do you mean about 2i/n? And 2k?
German has 2a, but not Dutch, ehh?
Also, what was less than you thought, the resemblance?


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## ThomasK

2a. German: _das stimmt;_ Dutch: _dat klopt_ (whereas French ça cloche means there is something wrong ! ;-)
2n/i. This would be _bepaling/ bepalen_, I think (which could be paraphrased as _define, de-finire_)
2k. I can't think of any resemblance; something like a session (or is the purpose voting ?)


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## er targyn

Rallino said:


> *In Turkish:*
> 
> a voice = *ses*
> a vote =_ *oy*(*)_ or _*rey*(**)
> 
> _(*) oy is old Turkic word meaning "voice/calling". It is not in use in modern Turkish.
> (**) rey is Arabic word meaning "view/idea". In Turkish, it is not in use in this sense. Actually, I've never even heard it being used at all. I only know it thanks to the crosswords...
> 
> to vote = *oy vermek* (lit. to give voice. But as "oy" isn't in modern use, so few people know the real meaning behind this expression that they use just for "voting".)



_Oy_ is "thought" originally.

In Kazakh voice is dawıs, to vote - dawıs beru, lit. "to give voice". Voice is also ün and ses, which is rare.


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## Tjahzi

I see. 

Regarding _kloppen, _Swedish has _klaffa_ meaning "work well, succeed, come through". Could be another cognate.

About 2i, from the Swedish Wikipedia entry on _Stämma_: "_Bolagsstämma, förbundsstämma, föreningsstämma, partistämma och årsstämma är beteckningar organisationer använder på sitt, ofta högsta, beslutande organ som oftast håller möte en gång per år_."
My translation: "_Shareholders' meeting (bolag - company), federation meeting, party conference and yearly meeting are denominations which organizations tend to use to refer to their, normally highest, executive decision-making organ which assembles once a year_."


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## mataripis

Tagalog: Voice=Tinig/May Sinasabi     Vote= Ihalal/iboto


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## ThomasK

So, no link at all!


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