# Mainz'ta or Mainz'da?



## Pitt

Hi,

I'd like to know the correct spelling:

1. Mainz'ta oturuyorum.
2. Mainz'da oturuyorum.

I'm not sure, but in my opinion is correct: Mainz'da oturuyorum.

Thanks!


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## Chazzwozzer

_Mainz'da _is correct, I say.


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## avok

I guess, it should be Mainz'ta because Mainz is pronounced as Main*ts *so Main*ts't*a : Main*z't*a


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## hakanhasan

I guess the correct form of this sentence is Mainz'da oturuyorum because if you want to use the word of Mainz in türkish you have to add a suffix with the letter of d not t.


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## Spectre scolaire

It all depends on how you pronounce Mainz _in Turkish_. 

The reason for putting the question this way is that Mainz does not have a special Turkish form – like Italian Magonza and French Mayence. If the city of Mainz had been of some importance during Ottoman times, it would certainly have acquired a name which corresponds to Turkish phonology – f.ex. the Italian version. Locative would then have been *Magonza’da - without even asking.

As it is, one has to cope with a spoken form which is phonologically awkward, the Turkish phonetical realization being _IPA_ [*!*] [mainz] – with a final _voiced spirant_. This is of course wrong according to the German pronunciation which is _IPA_ [*!*] [maints].

The Turkish locative allomorph must follow in accordance with the “wrong” Turkish pronunciation: *Mainz’da* and not Mainz'ta.
 ​


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## avok

I can speak German and I pronounce Mainz as Maints, so I would say "Maints'ta" and I believe Pitt will pronounce "Mainz" as Maints even when he speaks in Turkish. So *Mainz’ta* and not Mainz'da, if you know how to pronounce Mainz correctly. Of course if someone pronounces Mainz as Main"z" then, it is Mainz'da and I guess Pitt shall know how to pronounce it correctly, he won't start to pronounce Mainz without "ts" just because he started to speak Turkish.


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## Spectre scolaire

avok said:
			
		

> I believe Pitt will pronounce "Mainz" as Maints even when he speaks in Turkish.


 Well, these are the subtle nitty-gritties of language that may be unimportant to some people.  I am not sure whether we have any right to suggest that other people care less if we do so ourselves.

If _Pitt_ pronounces the Turkish word manzara, I am sure he won’t say [mantsara]. On the other side, _avok_ is quite right in assuming that foreign names are often pronounced according to how you are used to pronouncing them _in your own language_. Take f.ex. Iraq. I constantly hear Turks pronounce it in an English context _like they pronounce the name of this country in Turkish_. To say [*ı*rak] when speaking English is of course “wrong”; it should be [*i*rak]. 

What _avok_ is doing is to accept a German pronouncing a German name according to his own phonological rules _even when he speaks another language_ just because the same thing also happens in Turkey.

I suspect _Pitt_ came up with his question because he wanted to learn _Turkish_ phonology, not _German_. 
 ​


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## Pitt

Many thanks for all the answers! 
As a German I pronounce Mainz like Maints. So I say: Mainz'ta oturuyorum. 

But I think that a Turkish pronounce Mainz like Mainz. So he says: Mainz'da oturuyorum.

Pitt


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## su_

neither mainz'ta nor mainz'da...
it's 'mainz'*de* oturuyorum'. like 'I live in LA' = LA'*de* yaşıyorum.
Because it's pronounced as /m*e*ınz/ in turkish , e---de,
similiarly, LA /el eı/  due to the sound /e/ it has 'de.


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## Spectre scolaire

Quoted from a web site:

Hat*ay*’da doğumdan sonra ölen maymun görünümle bebeğin sırrı.

Garip bir ol*ay* *mi* m*ı*? 

M*ai*nz = Hat*ay*

but

L*A* [leı] (IPA) = *ey*vallah !
 I think the whole story is a _canard_. ​​​


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## su_

*hatay* is pronounced as /*hɑ**taı*/ in turkish (approx.) the last diphthong has the sound /*ɑ*/ so the suffix is naturally _*da* _/*dɑ/*_:_ Hatay'da. 

if it was edirne instead of hatay, then it would be edirne'de;
/edirne/ /de/ . this is called vocal harmony /e/, /i/, /ü/, /ö/ is followed by /*e*/ as in: çin'de, gümüldür'de, çölde...

and: /ɑ/, /u/,/o/ and /ə/ followed by /*ɑ*/ as in: muş'ta, toros'ta and kışta /kəʃtɑ/

LA'd*e* but Los Angeles'd*a*.... why? because last sound is schwa /ləz/.

Mainz is /meınz/ in pronunciation so it has nothing to do with the diphthong in hatay.

and görünümle in your example must be görünümlü.


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## avok

su_ said:


> *hatay* is pronounced as /*hɑ**taı*/ in turkish (approx.) the last diphthong has the sound /*ɑ*/ so the suffix is naturally _*da* _/*dɑ/*_:_ Hatay'da.
> 
> if it was edirne instead of hatay, then it would be edirne'de;
> /edirne/ /de/ . this is called vocal harmony /e/, /i/, /ü/, /ö/ is followed by /*e*/ as in: çin'de, gümüldür'de, çölde...
> 
> and: /ɑ/, /u/,/o/ and /ə/ followed by /*ɑ*/ as in: muş'ta, toros'ta and kışta /kəʃtɑ/
> 
> LA'd*e* but Los Angeles'd*a*.... why? because last sound is schwa /ləz/.
> 
> Mainz is /meınz/ in pronunciation so it has nothing to do with the diphthong in hatay.
> 
> and görünümle in your example must be görünümlü.


 
Hei su, 

You are right about the vowel harmony but as far as I know, since Mainz is a "German" city, it is pronounced as "Maynts". 

Yani "Mainz", "m*ay*nts" diye telaffuz ediliyor, "meynts" diye değil. Bildiğim kadarıyla "ai" genelde İngilizce'de "ey" diye okunuyor ama Almanca'da Türkçe'de olduğu gibi "ay" diye okunuyor.
Yani bir Amerikalı Mainz'ı Meynz diye telaffuz eder ama bir Alman Maints diye okur.

Yes, it should be "maymun görünüml*ü*" scolaire.


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## Spectre scolaire

I just copied a headline. Further down in the article the syntax in which the neologism görünüm is placed, is different. My assertion that this is a _canard_ is referring to the same article.

On the other hand – concerning the last two postings – I can’t see any argument bringing new light onto this thread. 

 ​


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## avok

Spectre scolaire said:


> I just copied a headline. Further down in the article the syntax in which the neologism görünüm is placed, is different. My assertion that this is a _canard_ is referring to the same article.
> 
> On the other hand – concerning the last two postings – I can’t see any argument bringing new light onto this thread.
> 
> 
> ​


 
The headline is wrong!! Maybe a typo.

On the other hand – concerning the last two postings – I can see an argument bringing something new onto this thread, and it is that suffix "de" may turn into "da, te, ta" according to :

* the mother tongue of the speaker: someone who is living in Mainz may be a native English speaker but keeps pronouncing Mainz as Meinz: Mainz'de

*the languages the speaker speak

*the languages the speaker prefers. Su prefers the English pronunciation of "Mainz" :"Mainz'de" 

*the geography knowledge of the speaker. I assume Su does not know Mainz is in fact in Germany or there is another town called Mainz in an English speaking land: "Mainz 'de"


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## su_

to avoc: your answer showed me how prejudiced I've been. I thought it was in America, never thought of Germany. So it's definetely not 'de.
as a turk, I would proununce it as Mainz'da but spell it as Mainz'ta. Similar to Kıbrıs'ta (in writing) but Kıbrıs'da when we say it (easier this way, too many t-s-t sounds otherwise)

to spectre: wouldn't the info. I presented on vowal harmony light the way of someone who is struggling with the perplexed sound system of turkish? so no harm is done, eh?


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## doctor.TR

If it is written Turkish do not take its pronunciation into consideration.
Just consider how it is written

Quick cheat sheet:

*p,ç,t,k,f,h,s,ş*

These 8 letters in Turkish will help to remember which letter will follow other one.

Word: Main*z*

In this case we want to know what will follow z.
We will look at z, is it in the list of 8 letters above? No.
So it is gonna be d. 

Answer: Main*z'd*a

- Lets see another example.

Word: Kaş (a place in Turkey)

In this case we want to know what will follow ş.
We will look at ş, is it in the list of 8 letters above? Yes.
So it is gonna be t. t wil fallow ş

Answer: Ka*ş't*a


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