# Verbatim



## bearded

Hello everyone

Recently there was a discussion in the Italian forum, concerning the Latin word 'verbatim', which is sometimes used in Italian and other languages to say ''literally'' or 'word for word' (e.g. in a translation).
Most dictionaries of classical Latin do not contain this word, so it is presumably of medieval origin...
Can someone give me more information on the origin of 'verbatim', and tell me whether it can be legitimately considered a Latin word (or just a 'monstrous' medieval creation)?

Thank you in advance.


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## dragonseven

Ciao Bearded Man,
rispondo in italiano perché mi è più agevole, spero di non trasgredire a qualche regola del forum per questo.
Stavo per rispondere in SI ma, data la nascita di questo thread, mi pare più opportuno farlo qui.
Non sono una cima in Latino e ne so poco, ma ho trovato delle cose interessanti che riporto.
Innanzitutto il suffisso _-atim _per la formazione di alcuni avverbi derivanti da sostantivi:





> 159. Altre specie di avverbi sono:
> 2. [...]
> Tra i derivati da sostantivi (soltanto *-ātim*): _catervatim_ (a frotte); _centuriatim_ (a centurie);_gradātim_ (per gradi, gradatamente); _paulātim_ (a poco a poco); _privatim_ (privatamente).-Forme particolari sono _furtim_ (furtivamente); _virītim_ (a testa, per uomo); _tribūtim_ (per tribù); _vicissim_ (vicendevolmente). Anziché _partim_ (in parte, parte) si dice anche _partem_(l'uno e l'altro), propriamente l'accusativo singolare di _pars_. LINK


 Poi, vi sono vari esempi d'uso, di cui riporterò solo tre esempi, sia in latino:
_*Gli scrittori liguri*_ di Michele Giustiniani, anno 1667
_*Vita del padre Danielo Concina dell'ordine de'predicatori*_ di Giovanni Vincenzo Patuzzi, anno 1768
_*Archivum franciscanum historicum*: periodica publicatio trimestris cura pp. Collegii D. Bonaventurae, Volume 96,Edizioni 3-4_, Collegium 2003 

sia in italiano (prima del 2001, “per dire”):
_*Effemeridi delle scienze mediche*_ di Giambattista Fantonetti, anno 1836
_*Metodo ed ordini nella teoria architettonica dei primi moderni*: [_..._]_ di Mario Carpo, anno 1993
_*Duride di Samo*_ di Franca Landucci Gattinoni, anno 1997

Continuerò la mia ricerca per verificare se v'è un riscontro in Latino vicino al 1481.


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## bearded

Hai fatto un fantastico lavoro, dragonseven, ti ringrazio molto. In particolare è interessante l'uso distributivo della desinenza -tim (che era messo in dubbio nel thread italiano).  Effettivamente (reminiscenze scolastiche) mi sono ricordato che io conoscevo _paulatim e tributim...._


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## Necsus

Grazie a entrambi, per aver aperto il thread e per i contributi fondamentali (io _-tim_ non lo avevo trovato)!


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## Scholiast

salvete!

What a fascinating question! In my ignorance I had always assumed _verbatim_ to be classical - albeit rare - but no, it is as bearded man indicated, nowhere in L&S. Nor even the putative verb _*verbare_, which "should" allow _verbatim_. And the plot thickens with the earliest _OED_ entry for _verbatim_ (in its sense of "exact wording") in an English document of 1481 (with no suggestion that its meaning is strange to writer or readers), and several more, including one in Shakespeare, from the 16th and 17th centuries.

I have no special expertise in mediaeval/late Latin, and have no convenient access to e.g. du Cange's _Glossarium mediae et infimae Latinitatis_, but others here may be able to help.

And one may add a few to dragonseven's suggestions - _confestim_, _strictim_, _praesertim_, _interim_, _statim_, and doubtless more, which are not obviously or even possibly derived only from nouns.

I have a suspicion (but it is no more than that, and I eagerly await illumination from wiser souls than I) that the term originates in scholastic philosophy, a cultural milieu in which exact citation / quotation of sources first acquired status as an essential part of intellectual method.

This looks like becoming a most entertaining chase.

Σ

Postscript to dragonseven: in this Forum (above all), surely any language is acceptable, especially Latin's eldest daughter.


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## exgerman

Eric Partridge compares _seriatim_ as another medieval coinage in -atim.

And the Oxford Handbook of Greek and Roman Comedy (p.389) points out that adverbs in -atim were freely formed in the Latin of Roman comedy (it quotes columbatim, muricatim, and a whole series of adverbs with a meaning of little-by-little: guttatim, paullatim, etc.


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## wandle

That other OED, the Online Etymology Dictionary, says this:


> *verbatim* (adv.)
> late 15c., from Medieval Latin _verbatim_ "word for word," from Latin _verbum_ "word" (see verb). As an adjective from 1737.


This OED's claim is not to original research, but to provide an epitome of available etymological works.


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## bearded

Interesting replies so far, thanks again.  It seems that there is also the secondary issue, whether the 'distributive' ending is -tim or -im (in _vicissim,interim,partim _and similar, it appears to be only -im - (in 'partim' the t belongs to the root) -, and the 'distributive' meaning is not always there).  On the other hand, it seems improbable that the rather common _paulatim _comes from an imaginary verb 'paulare'... I've got the impression that there is/was actually no rule concerning those structures, but just usage.  Scholiast's surmise, that v_erbatim _originated in scholastic philosophy, seems quite sensible to me. Perhaps someone will know more.


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## exgerman

I think the attempt to associate this suffix with verbs is going to fail, when the suffix is so obviously bound to nouns and adjectives, to the extent that it generally is -im for third declension, -atim for first and second, and -utim for fourth declension nouns.


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## Necsus

Well, I've found this about adverb formation:
«18 - Derivano essi da nome, da aggiunto, da pronome, da verbo, da participio, da avverbio, da preposizione; e come varia sì è la loro origine, altresì n'è diversa la terminazione (They come from noun, adjective, pronoun, verb, participle, adverb, preposition; and they have various endings, as various is their derivation)».
Then you have a lot of exemples (19-35), among which I see adverbs ending in -atim derived from supines and participles, but actually any adverb derived from a verb.


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